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The Struggle of the People: Liberian Civil War

Interviewer: Zsari Delaney Interviewee: Yarkasah Peter Paye Instructor: Mr. Whitman February 11. 2014 Delaney

Table of Contents

Interviewer Release Form 1

Interviewee Release Form 2

Statement of Purpose 3

Biography 4-5

One Day We Will Find Democracy 6-16

Interview Transcription 17-61

Interview Analysis 62-67

Works Consulted 68-69

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Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this American Century Oral History Project is to fully understand the horrific story behind the Liberian Civil War in 1989-1996. This is partially because there are a lot of life lasting issues that still remain in Liberia and desperately needs to be addressed. My interview with Yarkasah Peter Paye provides a firsthand account of the events occurring in the Liberian Civil War. My hope is that this project will educate the readers about this civil war, as well as advise the reader to understand Liberia’s current state and her road to a better future.

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Biography

Yarkasah Peter Paye was born on July 2nd, 1970, in a small town called Firestone,

Liberia. He grew up with his parents and seven other siblings in the capital city

Monrovia, Liberia for most of his teenage years. Mr. Paye has lived in many places such as, the Ivory Coast, Ghana, Florida, Virginia and currently Georgia. He received his undergraduate from Liberia Baptist Theological Seminary in 2 years, and then transferred to Luther Rice University and Seminary in Lithonia, Georgia. He received his Masters in

Gerontology at Georgia State University and later got his Masters in Divinity at Virginia

Union University.

In 1997, Mr. Paye started working on the radio as a host in Liberia, with a devotional program called, “Christianity Today”. He also was a community counselor and is now currently a pastor. After much research and study, Mr. Paye established an organization as CEO called Healthy Nation in 2011, an organization to promote a healthy population through health education and disease prevention. Due to his line of work, Mr.

4 Delaney 5 Paye is a very passionate leader on helping the people in Liberia, hoping to decrease the percentage of illiteracy as well as the health issues in its communities.

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One Day We Will Find Democracy

“All, hail, Liberia hail, All hail Liberia hail. This glorious land of liberty shall long be ours”. This is one of the most important lines in the Liberian national anthem. The

American Colonization Society established the West African country, Liberia also known as “America’s Stepchild” or “The Lone Star”, in the early 1800’s. “Quaker members of the ACS felt that African Americans would have a much better chance at liberty in a country of their own than they would in America” (Duva). During this time, European countries were in a battle for maintaining their own colonies. However, Liberia, alongside Ethiopia was the only two African countries not colonized by any European or

American country. After gaining its independence from America on July 26, 1847,

Liberia experienced many successes and failures. Nevertheless, on December 24th, 1989, a group of Libyans led by Liberian politician Charles M. Taylor, invaded Liberia from the Ivory Coast. President Samuel Doe led the government and once he was elected there was an increase of human abuse, mass corruption and ethnic tension. As a result of the two clashing, Liberia converted into bloodshed and a deadly war that lasted for seven turbulent years. Therefore, in order to understand the perspective of someone who witnessed the First Liberian Civil War, it is important to first examine the history of the birth of Liberia and the fight for freedom that tormented the lives of civilians throughout the country.

In the early 1800's, the United States was debating over the future of slavery. In turn

"the government made its first stand with regard to Liberia (known at the time as the

Grain Coast)”(Duva). Prominent Americans such as Henry Clay, Daniel Webster, and

John Randolph were a few members of the American Colonization Society. Their

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solution to slavery was to end it and send black back “home”. In addition to their goal, former president Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, publicly agreed to support the ACS, as well as James Madison whom arranged public funding for the society. This movement was a very controversial one because a fair amount of the African-Americans wanted to stay in America. In September 1829, one of Boston’s leading abolitionist, David Walker, elaborated on colonization in his published pamphlet, Walker’s Appeal, reiterating that,

“America is more our country than the whites—we have enriched it with our blood and tears” (Reef 18). Many slaves felt that they were being taken advantage due to the hard labor and abuse they encountered. Walker wanted the general public to understand that because of the labor they were forced to work, blacks were the ones giving them their cotton, food and etc. This angry pamphlet urged slaves to realize the truth of their being in America and to revolt against their masters. But most of the freed slaves were encouraged to return back to their own or some other land in Africa. However, suspicion arose for the motivation for this proposal. The members of the ACS felt that blacks would have better liberty in their own country, if they were sent back to Africa. This was an act of racism and protection for whites in case of slave rebellions.

Nonetheless, before any slave rebellions were initiated in the U.S, the ACS settlement had been striving on the West Coast of Africa. In 1818, the ACS sent two representatives with freed slaves to West Africa to help search for a location to establish their new colony. Before leaving, they had signed a constitution that a member of the society would administer under U.S. laws in the new settlement. “On March 9, 1820, 86 black passengers aboard the boat Elizabeth landed in Sierra Leone comparing themselves to

Israelites going to their promised land as depicted in the Bible” (Cooper 33). Once they

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arrived, they found shelter off the coast of West Africa on Scherbo Island, but many had died from malaria and other sick diseases. In 1821, the U.S. vessel continued its search for a new colony and landed in what is now called Liberia. Once they had arrived in this land, the U.S. Navy leaders tried to buy land from the natives, which consistently resisted

Americans in the purchase of their land. “The Navy officer in charge, Lieutenant Robert

Stockton, coerced a local ruler to sell a strip of land to the Society. The Scherbo Island group moved to this new location and other blacks from the United States joined them”

("Milestones: 1830-1860 Founding of Liberia"). The local native tribes continued to attack the new colony and in 1824, the American settlers built a blockade for their own protection. In the same year, the colony was named Liberia for the purpose of establishing liberty and freedom for the returning slaves from America. Its capital,

Monrovia was named in honor of President James Monroe, who had procured the U.S.

Government money for the project.

About 140 years later, Liberia was still finding itself. The government finally replaced their constitution from the original one created in 1847. On April 12, 1980, the original constitution was suspended, following a violent coup d’état led by 28-year-old

Master Sergeant Samuel K. Doe of the Liberian army. A group of 17 soldiers whom were in the Liberian armed forces (AFL) had entered the Executive Mansion, housing the

President William Tolbert1, a little after midnight to murder him. Current president, Ellen

Johnson-Sirleaf, whom at the time of the attack served under President Tolbert as his

1 William Tolbert was Liberia’s 20th president from 1971 to 1980. In early April of 1989, there was a major riot called, “rice riots” of which citizens protested against the government for increased prices of rice. This increased had dramatically impacted many Liberians whose average wage was $80 a month, could not afford to pay the high prices to feed their families. The price increase caused anger throughout the countryside, turning against the president. (Sirleaf 86).

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Minister of Finance from 1979-1980, mentioned that the coup was, “quickly overrunning

Tolbert’s security forces and seizing and brutally killing President Tolbert2 in his bed”

(Sirleaf 86). A year after President Tolbert was killed and overthrown, the makings of a new constitution emerged on April 12, 1981. Dr. Amos Sawyer, a political scientist was appointed to become chairman of the National Constitution Committee with a body of 25 members, given the job to rewrite the constitution. The final product was submitted to the

Constitutional Advisory Committee (CAA), which was reviewed and approved on July

3rd, 1984, which was heavily modeled after the federal government of the Unites States

(“The Constitution of the Republic”).

However, within the next four years the whole dynamic in Liberia had changed.

After the assassination of President Tolbert, Samuel Doe had become the new leader of

Liberia in 1980 until he was elected by a rigged vote as the 21st president in 1985.

Historians say that, “Samuel K. Doe brought the African majority to power, but instead of solving Liberia’s social problems, he instituted a reign of terror” (Reef 106). In late

1985, a failed coup d’état broke out against the president, killing hundreds of both Mano and Gio tribes that was mistreated by Doe’s regime. On Christmas Eve 1989, Liberian politician Charles Taylor invaded Liberia with a Libyan-based guerilla resistance group coming from the Ivory Coast, also known as the National Patriotic Front of Liberia.

Taylor and the NPFL rebels gained a lot of support from the Liberian population, none of who knew or necessarily trusted Charles Taylor but they all hoped that he would bring a stop to Samuel Doe and the Armed Force of Liberia (AFL). For that reason he gained a lot of support from Liberians because they strongly despises Samuel Doe and his

2 There was many theories of his death, Steven Ellis, in his book Mask of Anarchy, says the President was found sleeping in his office, where the soldiers killed him. Ellen Johnson Sirleaf said that he was killed while in his bed in the Executive Mansion.

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decisions as president. President Doe had launched a wave of violence against the civilians in Nimba County, primarily housing the Gio and Mano ethnic tribes. Once

Taylor and his group of rebels, some of which were children, arrived in Nimba County, the NPFL was estimated to have killed thousands of civilians.

As the violence began to increase, whole families, children and even big businessmen began to flee to neighboring countries like Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana, Guinea,

Mali, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Gambia. “Refugees said that troops unable to halt the rebel drive sometimes turned their wrath on civilians, raping, killing, looting and burning down homes as they retreat” (“Liberians Flee City as Rebels” 1). Many of these rebels in the NPFL were enlisted young boys from all ages; any who were able carry a gun. A former child soldier told PBS news, “And those little ones that are holding the guns, they are not intelligent, they cannot think” (The Civil War Was Ethnic). These children had no conscience or any idea of what exactly they were doing. Parents tried to tell their sons not to go but they all thought that going to work with Taylor was an honor. These boys got high off power and drugs, thinking that killing their own country people was all a game and for fun. In the mist of all this chaos, the warlords told the children to go to people’s homes and take whatever they wanted. As Janet Johnson-Bryant said, a journalist “They would go into peoples homes and they rape you in front of your children, they could rape you in front of your husbands and they just do anything because they had guns” (Pray the

Devil Back To Hell). The warlords that invaded peoples homes and land did not come to save people because they were on their own schedules and they did not whatever they wanted.

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In the meantime, in 1990, the NPFL’s next mission was to advance into

Monrovia, the nations’ capital where a majority of the citizens had lived. By May of

1990, Taylor forces had rapidly gained control of the countryside. However, a former member of the NPFL, Prince Johnson, had left Taylor’s force because of policy differences and created the Independent National Patriotic Front of Liberia (INPFL). His rebel forces captured Doe and tortured him until they finally killed him on September 9th,

1990. After his execution, The Economic Community of West African States intervened

Charles Taylor’s forces from invading and capturing Monrovia. By this time, there had already been 5,000 unarmed civilians dead.

Finally a Nigerian-led peacemaking force known as Economic Community of

West African States (ECOWAS), or ECOMOG, its monitor group, came to try to create peace with the warring factions. The group consisted of 15 West African nations promoting economic cooperation within the countries. In May 1991, ECOWAS or

ECOMOG moved into Monrovia, with a new interim government called the Interim

Government of National Unity (IGNU), which lightly stopped the fighting for a limited time.

Leymah Gbowee, Liberian peace activist, was one of several witnesses of this wretched war. In 1991, after the war had come to a brief end, she saw the destruction of her country that she once loved. Whole blocks were burned down, houses were demolished, buildings stood with their roofs blown off, families were living in wreckage and the John F. Kennedy Medical Center, their biggest hospital had been vandalized and closed down. There was no hope for anyone. Everything that these people had once known was now demolished or dead. Many people now had nothing to call their own that

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was saved and Gbowee could attest to that problem as well. “We had almost no money; often, we’d wake unable to buy breakfast. Whenever we could, we’d pay a local boy to bring us a five-gallon container of water—we didn’t ask where he got it—and share it to take a bath” (Gbowee 38). On October 30, 1991, the Yamoussoukro Accords mandated disarmament warring factions under the supervision of the now expanded ECOMOG. In the middle of this, NPFL forces were clashing with Sierra Leonean troops alongside their border menacing their country’s solidity. “At the same time, refugees seeking safety flooded back into Monrovia, swelling the city’s population to 80,000 by May—nearly one third of the prewar population of all of Liberia” (Sirleaf 190). Throughout this time, people were trying to piece their lives back together. Health agencies came back to find cities that were demolished, most to help the malnourished and disease ridden people lying on the grounds helpless. Bodies lay on the beaches rotting and in the killing zones like St. Peters Lutheran Church3.

In spring 1992, the fighting started again, leading to 6,000 civilians being killed in the beginning of May. Charles Taylor and his men wanted to make a final assault on

Monrovia, to take over Monrovia. He had begun to start this fighting again but

ECOMOG hit back with shells and missiles and the chaos remained. People were running down the roads trying to find safety while, others were dying with blood everywhere, buildings were perforated and fear kept its severity. By August 1992, roads leading out from Monrovia were blocked for travel unless for pre-approved trips into a few counties.

However, travelers including five U.S nuns were detained and raped by the forces in the

3 President Samuel K. Doe entered the compound of the St. Peter’s Lutheran Church and opened fire on people who had gone there to seek refuge. Many lost the lives, others have long scars and some are living bullets buried in the bodies. (Boley 1).

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NPFL. “There was also limited air travel only in Spring Payne Field in Monrovia and

Abidjan, Cote D’Ivoire and Freetown, Sierra Leone” (Global Security).

During the following years the fighting continued but several peace agreements were being established. In 1993, ECOMOG continued to defend the city making it a safe haven for those in the country. However, Taylor and the NPFL soldiers kept fighting with the Mano and Gio tribes, which had been historical enemies with the Krahn tribe. On July

25, 1993, The Cotonou Accord established a peace agreement that contained the interim government (IGNU), the NPFL and the United Liberation Movement for Democracy in

Liberia (ULIMO), stating that, “The Parties further declare cease fire and the cessation of hostility… that all parties or groups within and without the perimeter of Liberia shall refrain from act(s) or activity (ies) that may violate or facilitate the violation of the ceasefire” (“Cotonou Accord”).

Once the NPFL and its main opponents agreed to the accord, the fighting will finally cease. But by the spring of 1994 this was not to come. The United Liberation

Movement for Democracy in Liberia had split in 1994, one being the ULIMO-J and the

ULIMO-K. Alhalji Kromah led the ULIMO-J lead by Roosevelt Johnson with mostly the

Krahn tribe and the ULIMO-K with mostly the Mandingo tribe. Now there had been two official war factions including the NPFL and AFL with extra groups claiming to help fight as well like, the United Liberation Movement with its two wings ULIMO-J and

ULIMO-K. Also including the Liberia Peace Council, NPFL-Central Revolutionary

Council, the Lofa Defense Force and fragments of the Armed Forces of Liberia. After 13 more war peace accords, the Liberian Council of State established an accord to compromise with all of the seven war “factions.” It was called the Abuja Peace Accord

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signed on August 19, 1995 in Abuja, Nigeria. This agreement was an attempt to end the civil war, to secure peace from NPFL leader Charles Taylor. However, it was another failed attempt along with the many other treaties that were made prior. On April 6, 1996, an estimated 3,000 civilians were killed while five war factions joined together and came into Monrovia, which was known to be the Siege of Monrovia. The crisis began with the attempt to arrest Roosevelt Johnson leader of the ULIMO-J, who was accused with murder charges yet the fighting continued.

On 17 August 1996, after 134 days of killing and mayhem, Nigeria and other West African states brokered a cease-fire between the warring factions. Taylor emerged the dominant power, winning the 1997 presidential election. Nigerian forces dominated ECOMOG. (Global Security)

Charles Taylor won the democratic elections with 75% of the vote. The people thought that by voting for him he would put an end to the bloodshed, making his election to be their first in 10 years. Though Liberians believed that he could make a change in the country, he demonstrated no more ability to run the country than the former president.

He ironically promised the nation that he would not be “a wicked president and I say to you also, I have no intentions of being a weak president during this particular period”

(America’s Stepchild). Nonetheless, he did nothing to rebuild the roads, buildings or communication systems that had been damaged during the seven years of civil war.

People who were forced by the battles to flee their homes, were given little to no government aid. This led major businesses and businessmen to flee the country.

This Liberian Civil War also took an extremely dramatic toll on the country’s economy. There were almost forty refugee camps in neighboring countries and about an estimate of 130,000 displaced persons. Families were destroyed and lost. About 50,000 children were killed as a result of this seven year war. Many more were injured, sent to

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an orphanage or just abandoned. The National Military Families Association of Liberia

(NAMFA) tried to help the orphaned military children by gathering them from the streets but the institution was not funded by the government and had to rely on public funding.

By November 1990, the number of Liberian internal displaced people and refugees accounted for nearly one-third of the country's population… The first of such shipments was the provision of over 87,000 tons of rice. By the end of 1990, all persons in the country were currently dependent on international food aid. (Nmoma 1)

This quote emphasizes on the displacement of people and the refugees in the world but this had continued throughout the occurrence of the war. To add insult to injury most of these children were dying from starvation every single day. The loose of children during this time was very critical because children are the future and with an excessive number of them dead or orphaned they will be no hope for the next generation of Liberians.

Historians have viewed this civil war as one of the most bloodiest and deadliest crisis in Africa’s history. It claimed the lives of over 250,000 Liberians, all within seven years. As a result of the end of the war, Liberia was stuck back into poverty and the process for rehabilitation of the small country. Poverty that had increased tremendously since 1980, leaving widowed women as the heads of their household taking care of children to fend for themselves. However, one of the most important issues that need to be secure is the nation’s peace. According the historian Catherine Reef, “Liberia must achieve peace before economic recovery and development can take place, and peace can take root only if people are willing to judge others according to their individual merits rather than their heritage” (Reef 111). This quote truly defines the future of Liberia because without finding peace within the country it will never grow to become the greatest country they wish for, if there cannot be common ground between everyone.

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After Charles Taylor resigned from office in 2003, he was sent to jail for his involvement in the Sierra Leone Civil War. Now Liberia desperately was in need for a new president that could change the whole war dynamic around, to help bring peace in their country.

Many Liberians still love their country despite all the wars and their painful past.

They refuse to give up hope and that should be what the world should do as well. As

America’s stepchild, Liberia has many pathways to success of a great nation but the mass majority of its population is still devastated and stuck back in the past, not knowing how to build up their nation. New elections were held on November 8, 2005, the winner was

Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf. President Johnson-Sirleaf had become Africa’s first female president, winning several awards for her work during her life. She won a Nobel Peace

Prize along with Leymah Gbowee and Tawakel Karman of Yemen. The women were recognized for their non-violent effects for the safety of women to create peace-building work. For the past eight years, President Johnson-Sirleaf has made it her job to undo the wrongs that Taylor had left behind on her land. It is important that the world knows that there are many countries in Africa that are wanting to be economically beneficial to their citizens, but it is very difficult to build a nation where peace is the last thing the leader wants. One day Liberia will become a successful country that everyone knows what freedom and peace are for themselves and their country. “Liberia Will Rise Again!”

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Interviewee/Narrator: Yarkasah Peter Paye Interviewer: Zsari Delaney Location: Lois Harris’s home, Lawrenceville, Georgia Date: December 29, 2013 This interview was reviewed and edited by Zsari Delaney

Zsari Delaney: How do you pronounce your first name?

Y. Peter Paye: Yarkaasahh

ZD: Okay, I’m going to say Y… (Laughs) Ok.

PP: (Laughs) But you can try it, Yarkasah.

ZD: Yarkasah!

PP: There you go!

ZD: This is Zsari Delaney and I am interviewing Yarkasah Peter Paye on the topic of the

First Liberian Civil War as part of the American Century Oral History project. This interview took place on December 29th, 2013 at 12:02 pm in Lawrenceville, Georgia.

This interview was recorded with a MacBook Air Laptop with Garageband. Okay, so the first set of questions are just going to be about your background and your biography, when you were a child and you now. So the first question, What was it like growing up in

Liberia in the 1970’s and 1980’s?

PP: Wow, what an interesting question… Well it depends on where you live, really because in different parts of the country, the experience would be different. So I was born in Firestone, Firestone is a natural rubber company. It used to be an American company started by R.B.S Firestone out, out from Ohio. Firestone came to Liberia in the early

1930’s. My father worked for Firestone all his adult life and so that’s where he met my mom, that’s where I was born. And so life was, it was different, life was without running

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water, without electricity, most of the time we lived in a one or two room house, which meant that the space was always cramped because the family was always large. And

(pauses)… we walked to school, started school very late and when I say late I means late.

The first time I went to school, I was eight years old or nine years old. And the distance had to be at least 25 miles one way, and we had to walk every day.

ZD: Everyday.

PP: Everyday. Monday through Friday, rain or shine. And when it was ra-raining season it rained a lot. You walk in the rain in the morning, you go to school, you soak wet, you sit in class wet, and after that you get in the rain and walk back home. And if it’s dry season… you walk in the heat and yeah. But that was, that was pretty much, life, life most of that member the joy was we played soccer a lot, families knew one another other and so it was a very tight nit community and people helped out one another. I remember many times when our neighbors didn’t have food to eat, and my mom would cook and she would share meals with them, and it’s interesting because of up till today she still has that practice. And when I go home I see that every time she cooks “everyday” (whispers), she sends food to some of her neighbors, which is a good practice, you know you share what you have.

ZD: Okay, So what was your typical day as kid other than just school?

PP: Oh, my typical day as a kid was, first thing was that I had to wash dishes, that was my, my chore in the house, I had to wash dishes, which has followed me through life, even at this point in time I enjoy washing dishes (chuckles). But that was the beginning of the day you wash dishes. Now, of course you go to school… soccer was a big part of the day, I love soccer, I loved playing soccer, I don’t play much anymore because my

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bones are too old now. But I watch soccer, I follow the game closely. But, that was pretty much what our day revolved around, you did your house chore, you went and played soccer, then you studied, then you went to bed and you woke up and you started all over again, we did the same thing everyday.

ZD: So speaking about schooling, what was your educational background? And how was the schooling in Liberia?

PP: Well, when I was eight, maybe seven, I don’t count the year seven, that would have been 1977. We started school, primary school, what we call ABC, I think people call it

Pre-K here…

ZD: Mhm. (Nodding in agreement)

PP: We didn’t end the year, because of the distance, after a while my parents decided it just wasn’t worth it to walk that far, which was interesting because we had done one semester already and then they made the decision, this is just too much you can’t continue this, so we had to stop school. And it wasn’t until I was nine years old that would have been 1979, that I went back to school. So that was my first grade year, which was interesting… because that first grade year again we had a really long distance to walk to school, but I really didn’t comprehend anything the entire year. So I had to repeat first grade in 1980, I repeated first grade. But there was a change in 1980 when I went back to school in first grade. I just fell in love with education. Maybe it was the teacher that I had, I still remember her today, her name was Mrs. Johnson, wonderful women.

But she gave me a taste of education that changed my life, I love to read, in her class I learned to spell. And so that was really the beginning of my journey in terms of education, really in 1980, being in Mrs. Johnson’s class. That really just gave me a zeal

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and zest for education but we went to school without textbooks. (Pauses) And so when you have one book and maybe one reading book, then you have 15, 20, 30 students they would all try to rally around that one book and learn to read and those of us who wanted to really learn to read, maybe 3, 4, 5 of us and we would try to take that one book home and you’d keep it for one night and give it to the next person. Or sometimes we’d gather together in the day and read… try to read that one book and as you read a paragraph, if you couldn’t say a word, somebody else might be able to say it and then it would help you pronounce that word and then you all try to spell it together so that you’ll remember it the next time. And it was like a kind of corporate learning environment, and we know, we didn’t give it a name those days but when I think back that’s what it was, we learned in groups. It was very corporate environment. But yeah, no textbooks. Our teachers had to write notes on the board, on the black board, and of course this generation knows nothing about black boards, everything is computer (laughs). But our teachers had to handwrite all of our subjects, okay, so even in the first grade we would do math, science, history, geography, English. And English was usually divided to writing, spelling, composition and that’s writing was composition. But these were all individual subjects.

ZD: Yeah.

PP: So you could end up doing nine, ten subjects in, in the first grade. And then you and your notebook or notebook per subject, so each teacher would write their notes, you’ll copy the notes, and it’s very, wrote learning, so you memorized what’s given to you and then you give it back to the teacher. Yeah there wasn’t the kind of interaction that you would have in American schools where, you know you think about concepts and you

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discuss concepts, it was more about here are the facts, know the facts, give me the facts, and you make a hundred.

ZD: So the teachers, they just basically wrote down the lessons and you just had to figure it out on your own? [7:46]

PP: Yes, yes you just memorize it. So for example your teacher a would come, say your history teacher would say, “Liberia gained her independence on July 26, 1847”, no discussion, no context, no discussion on who was involved, no discussion on why we had to declare independence, nothing. So next week the teacher comes to class, maybe it’s quiz or test. “When did Liberia declare her independence?” All you had to do was put

Liberia declared her independence July 26, 1847. You got full max for that question.

ZD: That would make life so much easier. (laughs)

PP: (laughs) Yeah that would make life so much easier, but in the long run it is not a good way to learn. Cause then you, you don’t learn to think, and you don’t learn to be critical, you just pin out facts. Yeah and it’s still the way education is done today by the way, which is really unfortunate.

ZD: There in Liberia?

PP: Mhmm. In Liberia, its still the way education is done for the most part.

ZD: Tell me about you family and your siblings.

PP: Ohhhh, my family and my siblings. Well, I am the second of eight children. So my father met my mom in Firestone. My grandfather, my mother, my maternal grandfather was already working at Firestone when my father arrived there. And the story is that my grandfather gave my father a job and my father somehow became like a son to my grandfather, more like a mentee to my grandfather. Then he also fell in love with his

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daughter and they were young, my father must have been nineteen, twenty years old, my mom was sixteen, no more than seventeen. And then they had a traditional marriage; a customary marriage and then they had their first child, my older brother. My older brother, you would be interested in this, is five years older than I. In African society for my father being a non-literate guy, a very traditional customary guy, having one child was not enough. He felt that you know, others would mock him, laugh at him because he was not man enough that he only had one child. So for five years, when a second child didn’t come around, he felt very inadequate. So when I came around in 1970, he said,

“Yarkasah”, that’s my first name, it really means, “it has become good”, cause he felt fulfilled, he felt like a man. So he said it had become good.

ZD: He said finally!

PP: Finally, I’m a man, finally people will respect me, it has become good. So there are six boys and two girls.

ZD: Wow.

PP: Yeah, but that’s just from my mother and my father because I remember my father was a tradition guy, he eventually took other wives. And they also had you know children, some of whom I know, others I don’t know but I consider them my brothers and sisters.

ZD: Okay, I know we’ve talked briefly about this but when did you get interested in health care in Liberia?

PP: (Short breath) Well, I went back to Liberia in 2011, after being in the states for about ten years. (Pauses shortly) Prior to going I had been reading in graduate school, I had been reading different info, sources of information and data coming out of the country.

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Very high maternal mortality rates, very high infant mortality rates, very high mobility rates in the country and I was really concerned. But there’s one thing when you read journal articles, and when you read reports by NGOS, it’s another thing when you’re underground and you see it for yourself. So, that visit in 2011 really provoked something inside of me that said that this is unacceptable and we need to be able to make a difference. So the question for me was well I don’t have any training in health care, how do I make a difference? And it took a year for the idea of community health, primary health care occurred to me. So since then I’ve made another six trips back to Liberia and we finally got Healthy Nation up and going and in small way we’re beginning to make a difference.

ZD: Well that is very good what you’re doing. So were you surprised that a civil war broke out?

PP: (Takes a thoughtful breath) Yes and No. Let me explain the no first. (Pauses) No I was (pauses shortly again) not surprised that a civil war broke out because right from the founding of Liberia, a lot of the things had happened and we had really sewed the seed of discording, discontent, through a hundred years of independence, or a little more than a hundred years of independence. And it was just a matter of time, that someone charismatic would come along and lit the fuse and we knew it. In fact by 1979, when there was a rice riot in April of 1979, and then in 1980 on April 12, when the government was overthrown, it was becoming clear that the country was really on the wrong path and that it wouldn’t be long before we really disintegrated into chaos. But yes I was surprised because in spite of all of our history, our political history Liberians had never presented themselves, as “the ones who would take up arm”. Cause we never had that in our history

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for the most part, as a republic, we’ve never had that. So it was surprising and then it was also surprising because Liberian’s intermarry a lot. You know, people from one tribe marry a man from one tribe, marries a woman from another tribe and they have children and then ??+ so the children belong… For example a Gio man marries a Vie woman, well what are the children? They are both Gio and Vie. So if you intermarry this much and how do you ?? Amongst yourselves. In that sense it was surprising but in a purely political, economic view it was not surprising at all.

ZD: Alright, How would you describe Liberia’s relations with its neighbors? Like Sierra

Leone, the Ivory Coast. [14:34]

PP: Well, Liberia has always, historically Liberia has enjoyed very good relations with her neighbors Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, Guinea. In fact Liberia was very instrumental in the independence of a vast majority of African nations because we were the first independent nation. We have been independent for a little of 100 years, before the rest of

Africa had this awakening for independence in the 50’s and in the 60’s. So the only place they could go, well there were two places they could go Ethiopia or Liberia but mainly

Liberia.

ZD: Yeah

PP: So they all came to Liberia, Nelson Mandela came to Liberia, Kwame Nkrumah came to Liberia, they all came to Liberia seeking help from the Liberian government.

And for the most the most Liberia had really good relations with our neighbors. In fact when Tolbert was president, the president that was overthrown William R. Tolbert,

Tolbert’s daughter was married to, [no] his son was married to the first daughter from the

Ivory Coast. So you had the two presidential families, one in Liberia, one in Ivory Coast

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also related by marriage. There is a grandson of President Tubman who is married to a granddaughter of Jomo Kenyatta from Kenya, that is the kind relationship that Liberia has always had with her neighbors. Now, that changed during the Civil War. Because then we started to interfere with internal politics of our neighbors. In fact took war really into a place like Sierra Leone, which was unfortunate.

ZD: We’re going to start getting more into the Civil War.

PP: Okay

ZD: How old were you when this war broke out?

PP: I’m sorry?

ZD: How old were you?

PP: Oh, how old was I when the Civil War broke out? That was Christmas Eve of 1989, so that was my… I was 19 going on 20.

ZD: Okay, So what do you remember from the war? As far as when it started.

PP: Well let’s put it this way, I can remember very clearly on Christmas Eve of 1989 at

5:05 pm. Those days in Liberia and all over most of Africa, the BBC had a program called Focus on Africa, and in Liberia Focus on Africa came on at 5:05 pm. And it was a very popular program, so at 5:05 pm, where ever you were, whether you were in the taxi, whether you were in a bus, if you were at home, people turned their radio on to listen to

Focus on Africa. So it wasn’t unusual that on that day we were listening to Focus on

Africa, and BBC, it was the most popular news program in the country even though it came from Britain. But I remember Focus on Africa came on and the theme for Focus on

Africa was (sings theme song) you listen to it so much that you know it. (laughs)

ZD: (laughs)

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PP: And the news broadcast was led by Liberia, that there had been an [incursion??] at the border and that a man called Charles Taylor or that the government of Samuel Doe was claiming that a man called Charles Taylor was leading an incursion to the country.

Well I was 20, coming 19 going on 20, I didn’t understand much of what they were talking about, but somewhere inside of me there was just this feeling and it was intrinsic that oh no this is not going to be good that this is war. War is not good. Mind you, we have had Sudanian refugees in Liberia forever because of the long running war in Sudan.

ZD: Mhm

PP: And so we need… so if people from as far as Sudan can become refugees in Liberia, if we fight war in Liberia, how far would the Liberian war take Liberians to become refugees? So that was just my… yeah there was no time to discuss what we felt or thought with people but the very next day on Christmas day, there was no Christmas because that was all people were talking about. The war, that the war had come.

ZD: Yeah, I could imagine that

PP: Yeah, I can remember, a week or so later when Charles Taylor did his first interview on BBC, on the same Focus on Africa. That was the go-to place to get news, everybody waited, in fact there was a time in Liberia weeks after that 24th of December date, when all around the city, you see people, men and women were just get gathered around a small radio. To listen to Focus on Africa, what’s new, what’s happening today? So that was the beginning, but for the most part of the war, you know, was still [about] 2… 300 miles away Monrovia from the city. So we could go about our normal businesses as much as possible. For example we went back to school. Schools resumed in February and March in that year. Those days in Liberia the school year started from March to December. But

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my school we thought we were elite, so we always started the last week of February instead of second week of March when other schools started. So we went to school that last Monday of February, very hopeful that the war would not come to Monrovia that was our senior year in high school, that we will be able to complete our senior year that was

1990. We will complete our senior year; graduate and life would go on. But that would not happen because by July of that year, the new war came to Monrovia, in fact the war came to Monrovia on my birthday.

ZD: On your birthday? [20:23]

PP: On my birthday, can you imagine how much it didn’t like me? (laughs)

ZD: That’s not fair.

PP: I remember that July. Again we had so much confidence that the war would not come to Monrovia, I had invited a few of my friends over to the house and I cooked and prepared some food and that morning (snaps) we heard the guns going off and people bombarding everywhere and we just knew this is it, it’s over, the war is in Monrovia.

Yeah.

ZD: How did life change for Liberians once it did come to Monrovia?

PP: Life changed drastically. Life changed completely. There was nothing but chaos and arnica??. Let me give you an example of how life changed, two examples really. So we left home on July 2nd, we stayed at home for a week on July the 9th, a week later a rocket went through our house (Makes small rocket noise). So we ?? And it was like 7,

7:30 pm, we went running, we had no idea where we were going to, we just running away, we ran. And we went to a place that was deep in the bush and spent the night, we found a little hut, there was an old man in the hut ??+ there was a lot of other people

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and he invited us in and we took refuge in there. Small one room place that must have been 30-40 people cramped up in there. I remember I had on my white t-shirt from school, it was a school t-shirt a high school t-shirt and it was white. The next morning, that t-shirt was almost red, because mosquitoes had bitten me ALL night, and then just puke all over the t-shirt, so instead of white, it was red.

ZD: It was red. (said together)

PP: That’s how life had changed for us. But the sense of insecurity, the feeling of hopelessness, the “you could be dead any day” kind of thing, that anybody could do anything to you and there was no justice, and no where to turn and there was no mans

th th land and the entire country really became a “no mans land”. On July 24 and July 25

1990, I witnesses 8 executions. 8 men (pauses) right before my eyes, just sprayed with bullets, dropped and struggled until they died. That’s how life changed for Liberians. And of course Liberians became refugees, they became refugees in Sierra Leone, they became refugees in Guinea, they became refugees in Ivory Coast, they became refugees in Ghana,

I was a refugee in Ghana of five years. Life on the refugee camp, its probably the most demeaning status you could ever have to be called a refugee or for that life to be a reality, even for a short time.

ZD: So, what actually happened in the refugees, like what are they doing to help you guys?

PP: Well, when you get in a refugee camp those days, generally the UN was there, some

UN organization, specially the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, the UNHCR. The

UN would be there and get people registered by families, now that was mainly to be able to receive provisions, food, and occasionally they would give those kind of things but

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mainly food. And that was it, you get some food, you had to stand in line every week or every other week and at one point it was every month and you get your share for supplies and then you had food to eat. The rest of the time there was really nothing to do. And so

500 refugees camp… a lot people became alcoholics, nothing to do. A lot of families broke up because they came. Men who have been used to getting up and going out to work and earning you know food for their families had nothing. Life was completely swept under their feet. And when I went to the refugee camp I had one shirt and one pair of pants. That was the extend of my wordily goods and you just had to make the best of it.

ZD: Wow. Ok we’re going to go back a little bit. [25:01]

PP: Okay.

ZD: Can you describe you reaction against the coup about Tolbert?

PP: Well, I was young and I honestly cannot…

ZD: Remember?

PP: Recall much of that, I mean I know on that day (pauses to think) My mom, we were in Firestone and I remember vividly, my mom was trying to go to the market and she was waiting for a taxi to come so that she would go to the market and for some reason taxis were just not coming, it was really unusual that on this day, I think we haven’t even seen a taxi yet. And my mom had commented on it, “ why is that you know we cant see taxis today?” and finally a car came through, it was taxi but the guy was in running, he came through and then he said, “Oh, you cannot go to the market today, they killed the president,” just like that. You cannot go to the market today, they killed the president last night, just like that. They killed the president? And I, I’m was ten years old, all this

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before my tenth birthday, so I’m standing there thinking, “they killed the president, I mean who kills the president?” That was just my thought as a kid, I mean who kills the president, why would anybody kill the president? But then again this is Africa where you really cant, you don’t have the opportunity to really discuss your thoughts and your feelings with people, you just keep it to yourself and then life goes on. But that was it,

Tolbert was killed and then we just knew the country was different after that. Cause I remember, again that was my first grade year with Mrs. Johnson and I remember one afternoon we went to school in the afternoon because we had a two classroom for school so the older guys went to school in the morning, and those of who was in the first grade, second grade, third grade went to school in the afternoon from 1 pm to 5 pm. And I remember we were sitting in class and there was this man called Mr. Fulton Smith and he was one of the managers in the plantation, and Mr. S… we all knew his vehicles, you know all the people who were superintendents and managers, we all knew their vehicles as they came through. We’d wave at them, you know we were kids and we’d have at them and they would wave back. But Mr. Smith went flying down the street on this dusty, rugged road, and ? “Why is he flying?” and within a few seconds another vehicle that came flying and there was men, some men in military clothes, others in civilian clothes and they were sitting outside the car as its flying down, and they had there guns and they were shooting after. (pauses)It was a week or two weeks after the coup 1980, they were shooting after him. And so Mrs. Johnson tried to quiet kids, a group of kids, you know first graders and they witnessed something like this and its up to her to try to quiet us down, and let us know that it’s okay but how can it be okay, we just seen you know fellow Liberians pursuing another Liberian and shooting after him. And

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somebody that we knew, Now, the guys who were pursuing this man ?? Mr.

Smith… Fulton Smith, everybody, he was a nice guy, everybody knew him, nice guy.

Well, fortunately for Mr. Smith he knew the plantation very well, he knew all the corners, he knew the roads, he spent his adult life working on this plantation, he knew how to elude his pursuers and that’s exactly what happened, he was able to get away from them.

But then I never knew, I never really knew subsequently,

ZD: What happened to him.

PP: What happened to him after that. But that’s part of how the coup changed the country. Of course a few days after the coup, you know 12 members of the presidents cabinet, including the speaker of the House of Representatives were taken to the beach and tied to light posts and sprayed with guns and some were executed. That changed the country because when they executed those people, their children and their relatives became very hurt. And so, the country is still reaping the consequences of the coup.

Yeah. But I have good friend in North Carolina. Her father was one of those executed and her father was the Justice minister, what we call here the attorney general and he was executed that day.

ZD: Wow.

PP: And she was young, she was much younger then you are, and now she was young because we were in high school together, yeah, we left high school around the same time.

So she had to be… no more then ten years old when he father was executed. What do you do about that?

ZD: Yeah, that’s very bad.

PP: Yeah

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ZD: That’s very hard to cope with… so when Taylor came to power (In hand quotes), came to power.

PP: Right.

ZD: How did your family cope with it before going to the refugee camps? [30:04]

PP: Well, technically, Taylor was not in power when we left because it was still during the war.

ZD: Yeah.

PP: I mean Taylor was in power as a rebel leader but not as president of the country.

ZD: Yeah

PP: So, when the war came we went into Taylor’s territory because that was the only way to get out of the country for us. We went into Taylor’s territory, my mom and my younger siblings and my older brother went to the village in Nimba and they were there for a few years. I refused to go because I wanted to go back to Monrovia to complete high school, you know I had gone to school late, I was already 20 years old in the twelve grade, I… it just really pained me that we already loosing another year and we were going to be old men before we completed high school. So I didn’t want to be too far away from Monrovia

ZD: Mhm

PP: So, I stayed with my uncle closer to Monrovia, closer than Nimba definitely, where we were was pretty close to one hundred miles to Monrovia but that was definitely closer than being 300 hundred miles away. We just had to cope, everyday you know you look over your shoulder to make sure nobody was pointing a gun at you. You kept your thoughts to yourself. You said very little because anything you said could be

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misconstrued by Taylor’s hooligans and you, a bullet you know could go through you and yeah. It was a very lawless time, very lawless time.

ZD: You had to live in fear everyday.

PP: You lived in fear everyday; you even slept in fear everyday, you know yeah.

ZD: So in 1989, there were 7-war factions and sub-divisions under Taylors his groups of rebels?

PP: Well, No there was one rebel group, NPFL,

ZD: Yeah

PP: National Patriotic Front of Liberia, that was the group that Taylor led, that was the group the crossed the border from Ivory Coast. Now, why Ivory Coast? Because remember I told you that the Doe, I mean the Tolbert government and the presidency in

Cote D’Ivoire, the Ivory Coast were related by marriage.

ZD: Yeah.

PP: Okay, so Houphouët-Boigny who was the president of Cote D’Ivoire then, his child was married to Tolbert, they were in-laws, so when Tolbert was overthrown by Doe, Doe became Houphouët-Boigny’s enemy. That’s why Ivory Coast was used, that’s why it was easy for Taylor and his men to use Ivory Coast territory to get into Liberia to fight the war. Now a few months after they came to the country they split, so Charles Taylor, one of his chief commanders called, Prince Johnson,

ZD: Mhm.

PP: They fell apart. So Prince Johnson started the INPFL, Independent National Patriotic

Front of Liberia. Right, so he was the one that actually killed Doe

ZD: Yeah!

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PP: In September of 1990. Now, other people then accused both groups of committing atrocities. For example, you had the Liberian peace council that got started; you had

Liberians united for democracy that got started, some of these were purely tribal groups, others were tribal/sectarian that is religious groups, especially LUR?, LUR was really a

Muslim group, so the Muslims felt that people were killing them and people were taking advantage of them, so they formed a group to defend themselves. Same thing with the

Lofa Defense Forces, LDF, that was another group that got started purely as a tribal group. But that’s what happens when you have so much chaos. Everything, spring up, you have an environment where anybody can spring up, anybody can pick up arms and give themselves a name and claim to be fighting for the republic.

ZD: But are they really just fighting for themselves?

PP: For the most part, for the most part. I mean it’s very evident bout what happened, eventually these people were just fighting for themselves. So it was all about securing their own positions, their own wealth, it was never really about the republic.

ZD: So is that still an issue here today, in Liberia?

PP: Well, in some ways it is, I mean it still ??+ the peace in Liberia is still very fragile. It peace like, every game in Liberia can be reversed in no time, which is really unfortunate but that is the reality, every gain we’ve made since 2005 can be reversed in an instant. And that’s why it is really important that Liberians continue to work to solidify the peace, that’s why it is really important that we continue to create an opportunity society, that’s why it is important that we create jobs for our young people,

70% of Liberians are less than 30 years old, so very young

34 Delaney 35 population, very young population. And yet unemployment in 85%. That’s a recipe for disaster.

ZD: Okay, so when you look at this picture (sits photo in front of him) what do you see, and how does it make you feel? [35:25]

PP: Well, it makes me feel sad, it make me feel sad that these young men, these guys are

19, 20, 21, somebody put guns in their hands, put drugs in their heads and in there bodies and took advantage of them. Cause they really didn’t know what they were doing. And I lived amongst these people, people like this, I lived amongst them, 1990, 1991, 1992 and you had the opportunity to talked to them and asked them, “but why are you fighting?” and not one of them could tell you why they were fighting. They had no clue why they were fighting. It makes you feel sad, if makes you feel sad that their innocence was stolen, their future was stolen. There was 60,000 of these people in Liberia. Men and women, 60,000 combatants minimum. You go to Liberia today, these guys are now, late

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20’s early 30’s and what can they do (chuckles) they have no skills, they cant read, they cannot write, Who hires them? Nobody, nobody can hire them. So it makes you sad, it makes you sad to see the, that there was a time when this was our reality. I mean, look, look, look at these faces.

ZD: Yeah, they’re smiling.

PP: Yeah they’re smiling, because they’re not smiling under their own powers. These guys are under the influence of a lot of drugs, warlords always do that. Cause these people don’t have any formal military training and so in order to send them to the battlefield to fight for you, to die for you, just give them drugs. You know give them a good dose of drugs and that it makes them feel invincible and sometimes even invisible

(giggles) and they get out there and yeah.

ZD: I understand that the warlords could literally just go to people’s homes and just take kids…

PP: Oh yeah, luting was a big, that was another reason why the NPFL fragmented because there was, there was a few professionals in NPFL, who for example was a gentleman called Emmet Glee Johnson, Glee Johnson was a former United States marine, so he came from a very professional military background and he thought reckless, so that luting and killing innocent people just didn’t represent the spirit of what the called the

Rebelution. So he was eliminated in no time, in 1990 a group of guys just killed him, eliminated him. Funny thing, these people, most of these guys on that picture was so illiterate that they had never seen television. Okay. So when they came to places like

Firestone, or the outskirts of Monrovia, and they saw computers, the monitors, and those days nobody had laptops they had the big computers

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ZD: Yeah the big old ones.

PP: So they always thought the monitors were televisions, so they would rip off your television, your monitor from the wall, take it home and say, “I got my T.V, I got my

T.V.”.

ZD: And they have no idea how to use.

PP: They had no idea how to use it. Or funny story, most of these guys that came from

Nimba or other places they’ve never seen indoor plumbing. So before the water was cut off in Monrovia, when these guys captured people’s homes, they would just take up others home and stay in the homes. The guys were drinking from the commode because they thought they had, they said, “Oh I got my small well inside”.

ZD: (laughs)

PP: (Laughs) Yeah.

ZD: So, they just weren’t up to date at all, they were just stuck in the dark ages?

PP: That’s right, stuck in the back, in the dark ages, that’s right.

ZD: Okay, so adding on to what the NPFL and his other groups. What were the struggles for the civilians who were living in the villages and homes? So when they invaded? What was happening, because I understand that people were getting raped?

PP: Oh yeah, people were getting raped, people were getting killed, people were losing their properties, to a person their property was free for all. People who raised animals, you know, chicken, goat, cattle, they lost everything, because the soldiers would come and take what they want to take and you can’t say nothing about it. So life was just unbearable, again it was just that fear of hopelessness, that insecurity.

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ZD: Okay, so can you go into more detail about how you fled and went to Ghana?

[40:36]

PP: Sure, so I stayed with my uncle, while my family, my mom and my siblings went to the village and then in about July, excuse me of August of 1990, the west African countries got together and formed a peacekeeping force called ECOMOG. So, ECOMOG came to Liberia, but ECOMOG was only in Monrovia because Taylor would not allow

ECOMOG into his territory. So Essentially the country was divided into two.

ZD: Yes.

PP: So there was Monrovia and what they called Greater Liberia and I was in greater

Liberia, Taylor’s territory and I didn’t want to be there. I wanted to leave and go to school in Monrovia. So I have a friend called Abel, Abel Mitchell. Abel and I have been classmates 7th, 8th grade and his father worked for a company where I was with my uncle.

And one day I went to his dad and said, “Listen, schools are resuming in Monrovia, I want to get to Monrovia, I want you to help me”. Because I knew he made weekly trip from where were to Banga, which was the stronghold of Charles Taylor and I knew that if I could get to Banga, I would be able to get transportation to get to Monrovia. So he said okay dude, you know it’s risky but if you want to try, I’ll do” I’ll try, I want to get out of here. On the day of, he came by and picked me up, I sat in the back of his pick up truck, I could not even ride shotgun, I was in the back of the pick up in the bed. And he droved me off all the way to Banga, and when I got to Banga I met a gentleman called,

Varney, Varney is now in Minnesota, Varney had graduated a couple of years ahead of me in high school. And we were friends in high school and I saw Varney, Varney was like where you going Pete and I was like, I’ve been in lock and I’m trying to get to

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Monrovia. He was like, come stay with me for next couple of days, I’m going to

Monrovia, I’ll give you a ride to Monrovia. So I stayed a couple of nights with Varney and his girlfriend and then they drove me to Monrovia. I remember when I got to

Monrovia it was the first of November 1991. We drove, Banga to Monrovia was usually is about a three hour drive and we drove and we there were you know Charles Taylor’s rebels had gates that you had to stop by all these gates. For that drive, oh my gosh, they probably had twenty gates and you had to stop at all of them and they expect the person and your vehicle and they let you go. And you had to give them money, I didn’t have any money, Varney had all the money. We finally passed the last Charles Taylor checkpoint in a place called Mabarclay. And we drove; we reached the first ECOMOG checkpoint.

We could smell freedom, could smell liberty, could smell my future. Then we got to a place called Red Light, we were in a small sedan and I promise you, if I had been in an open top car, I would have stood up and waved and celebrated because that was exactly how I felt. I wanted to stand up, I wanted to shout freedom, I wanted to celebrate but I couldn’t I have to contain all of that. But that’s how I left Charles Taylor’s. But I went back to Monrovia, completed high school, we went back to school because ECOMOG, had come so schools cold reopen in Monrovia, but schools were not open anywhere else in the country. So went back to school, graduated in May of 1992, and then rumors begun to spread that there was a round of fighting called Octopus?? That Charles Taylor and his men wanted to make a final assault on Monrovia, to take over Monrovia. That they were fed up that the country was being divided. I had been staying with a good friend and his family, Reuben. Reuben and I have been classmates since 7th through 12th grade, of course by that time my family house in Monrovia had been destroyed by rockets so I

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couldn’t go there. So I had to stay with Reuben and his fam—Reuben’s mother is a distant cousin, they decided that they couldn’t stay in Monrovia that they had to leave the country. I didn’t want to leave, but his mother was not listening. Over my dead body, you are not staying here, you are going with us. So that’s how I left he country.

ZD: And you wanted to stay because you---? [45:10]

PP: I wanted to stay because…. Yes I wanted to stay because I thought; I felt that I’d have better opportunities in Monrovia rather than leaving the country. Which looking back, that was a really stupid thought. So I’m glad I left the country. But that’s you know,

I was young, I was foolish and that was it. But yeah so we left in September of 1992, certainly in October, it was October 15 of 1992 Octopus started, it was one of the worst phases of the war, it was destructive, a lot of people died, it was just a lot of mayhem, lot of bloodshed.

ZD: The next following years there are a lot of peace treaties, with the peace countries.

PP: Right.

ZD: Just what do you think about them because they were passed but not really enforced? It didn’t really do anything.

PP: Well for the most part Charles Taylor. But not just Charles Taylor, the other warlords had no sincerity about it because again people were not looking out for the good of the country. They were just trying to secure political power for themselves and so when a peace accord was signed, as long as it didn’t ensure political power for them, then they did everything to undermine them. So they went to Bamako, they went to

Yamoussoukro, Accra, they went to Geneva, like you said they have these peace accords they had Geneva 1, Geneva 2, I think Yamoussoukro was up to Yamoussoukro IV, they

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had Bamako 1, Bamako 2 and they did everything to undermine those peace accords because it did not secure political power for them.

ZD: Okay, so when he was elected in 1997, why do you think Liberian trusted him and voted for him?

PP: Liberians didn’t trust him as much as they feared him. And the fear was, if Charles

Taylor had not been elected president the war would not have ended. Charles Taylor had controlled vast territory of land, of the country from the eve of Christmas of 1999, I mean

1999 up to the elections, I mean 1989 up to the elections, and 1990. For almost ten years,

Charles Taylor controlled all the timber in the country; he controlled all the diamonds and the goldmines in the country. Charles Taylor had really good connections of unscrupulous characters outside the country, who could supply him with arms in exchange for gold, diamond, and timber. So it was really out of a sense that we are sick of war, we are afraid that if we don’t elect this man the war is not going to end. So that’s why people elected Charles Taylor. They were hoping that by electing him, you know, he would get some sense and do the right thing; unfortunately the gamble didn’t pay off.

ZD: OH, I know I watched a video of him when he was elected and he’s like, “oh I will be a good president, I refused to be a wicked president”, how does that even make you feel? Just him saying that he’s not going to be wicked?

PP: Right! Make you feel betrayed because you know… well than again you got to know

Charles Taylor, Charles Taylor was the kind of guy who is very eloquent speaker, very charismatic guy. And Charles Taylor would say one thing…

ZD: And do the other.

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PP: And do the exact opposite of what he said, that was the kind of person he was. He was very egocentric, very narcissistic; it was all about Charles Taylor. If it didn’t suit

Charles Taylor, then it wasn’t good, if it suited Charles Taylor no matter how bad it was for the country or for anybody around him eh, it didn’t matter, then it was a good thing.

ZD: ( ??+) Okay, so when he was arrested was he tried for the things he did in

Liberia or the murder crimes in Sierra Leone? (Plates tumble in the sink)

PP: He was tried for the things he did in Sierra Leone.

ZD: And…

PP: So the special court that tried him really should have been in Sierra Leone, but for the sake of the security of the region they moved to the head because trying Charles

Taylor in Sierra Leone, right next door to Liberia was, would have been very dangerous.

Cause Charles, today Charles Taylor still has a lot of supporters in Liberia. There, I mean they are people today, as we speak right now, Charles Taylor’s former wife is there, there are a lot of his lieutenants who are underground who want Charles Taylor to come back.

There are a lot of people today, who would gladly welcome Charles Taylor if he came back, and you would ask me why would they do that I have no idea.

ZD: (giggles)

PP: But there are people who a just that loyal to Charles Taylor.

ZD: How long was he sentenced? [50:20]

PP: Oh, 80 years, I guess.

ZD: Yeah because I know he was a child, his son…

PP: Yeah he has a son here and he’s in jail in Miami in federal prison.

ZD: Yeah, for about 90 years.

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PP: Yeah, well they’ll both say their goodbyes in prison, and that might not be a bad thing.

ZD: Yeah, I don’t think so

PP: Yeah.

ZD: But why was he arrested for the war crimes in Sierra Leone but not for the things he did in Liberia?

PP: Well, because we have to set up a war crime for Liberia, a war crimes court for

Liberia. Again it’s politics, it’s self-preservation. Some of the people in the current

Liberia government (pauses) were either supporters or active perpetrators. OK. So they would not endorse a war crime court for Liberia because that would be like setting up a court for yourself or a court against yourself. We have several senators, several members of the House of Representatives who were warlords. Prince Johnson who broke away from Charles Taylor and who killed Doe, is a senator, is a Satan?? Senator. So would he vote for a war crimes court? No. So we’ve never been able to set up a war crimes court in

Liberia and that why the international communities sensed?? That since there was a war crimes court in Sierra Leone, and Taylor was closely linked to the boys in Sierra Leone, try him on those crimes and you really don’t have to bother with one in Liberia. Now do we need a war crimes court in Liberia? I think that the histories of the two countries are different and the war crimes court might not work for Liberia. I think it would only undermine the very fragile peace that we have yeah.

ZD: I know you visit Liberia a lot during the year, but do you ever consider moving back? (Smiles)

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PP: (pauses a little before answering) I have (laughs) considered moving back and yes plan to move back in the next year or next couple years at the most, I plan to move back to Liberia. Yes

ZD: And what are your feelings about Liberia’s stability today, and its lasting impact in future years?

PP: Well, like I said the peace has endured for 10 years and that’s a good thing but it’s a fragile peace. Everything, all the gains we’ve made can be reversed in no time and that’s the scary part, that it is still so tenuous that it takes just one match to lit (snaps) at the wrong time and we can undo everything. But I think that’s enough motivation for

Liberian’s, especially professional Liberians to go back because the more we invest in the country and in the people then the less likely there will be that we will endorse anything that undo’s what we accomplish. So that’s my motivation for wanting to go back and I try to encourage many people as I can to join that effort.

ZD: Okay. What do you think could have happened at the early stage of the war that may have prevented it earlier?

PP: Wow, that’s a good question. (pauses) One, I mean I think that there is several things that could have happened. I think for example Doe could of resigned in 1990, and set up a transitional government of national unity, that would of help. But again it’s really hard to guarantee that response because Charles Taylor was bent on becoming president it’s hard to even conceive of how Taylor would have accepted any regime that he did not lead. So it’s really hard to say. The only thing that would have of worked is, if Doe had left the country and said, “Okay, Charles Taylor is now the president”. Then maybe the

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war wouldn’t have spread but anything other than that is hard to see how it would’ve stopped the war from advancing.

Lois Harris (My Godmother): I was just wondering if you would like some more tea, would you like some more tea?

PP: (Whispers) No I got some, I’m good thank you.

LH: Want me to heat it up for you it’s probably cold by now.

ZD: No, it’s okay.

Jenneh Brooks: Oh are you going to edit it?

ZD: No. It’s okay.

LH: Let me know when there’s intermission so I can give you your lunch

ZD: We’re almost done, so it’s okay.

LH: What does that mean we can hang out on the set?

ZD: NO, Bye! (Laughs as they walk away) I know we’re kind of going on to now but can we go back to when you were witnessing the executions and you said that you almost died too? [55:19]

PP: Mhm. July 24th, 1990. I remember it like yesterday. And for the longest I refused to talk about it or to even talk about the war period, I just wanted to block it out of my mind, move on with my life. But my siblings, well my older brother and I, my younger siblings, my mom, we had left home because we couldn’t stay in our house it was just not safe.

We had gone to a Christian mission compound called ??+ and there were a lot of other people there, bout 30 thousands, that was the number that was quoted to us about

30,000 people were also there taking refuge. People from all over Monrovia, suburbs of

Monrovia had come, cause it was a safe place. It was a mission compound it was

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Ameri—not just any mission compound but an American mission compound so people felt safe, they felt safe because one it was Christian, two it was American and for

Liberians when you put those two things together brings a lot of sense of security. So we were there for about two weeks and things were going fine until that afternoon, early afternoon on July 24th 0f 1990, when the rebels over ran the place then it became unsafe.

Everybody had to leave. And so as we walked there was the first execution that I saw was of this really tall, slender guy, that had a very low hair cut and you would think he was a new recruit in the army. But he was in hospital garbs and there was no way to tell if he was a civilian or military. But the rebels accused him of being military because of his hair cut so they just shot him right there. Then as we left my mother and my younger siblings mad a decision to keep going ahead because we knew they community. We lived not to far from there, we knew the territory, that they would keep going ahead and that my older brother and I would swing by our house, we would pick up some change of clothes for the kids. We had a little bit of food left at our house, we’ll pick that up too, cause aye there was no telling where we would go. So we swung by the house, my older brother and I, we picked up the clothes and picked up the rice and as we walked we met this rebel soldier. This is about 4, 4:30 on a July afternoon, the sun is up, it’s a beautiful day and you can everything around you within a mile. And this guy said that he was pursuing somebody he described as an any man, and the person was wearing a yellow shirt and that we seen—well first he asked us have we seen this person and we said no and it was an honest response, we had not seen this person. Then he had claimed that we were lying to him and that we have seen his enemy and we were hiding his enemy from him and he was going to kill us.

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ZD: What’s the point of even asking the question?

PP: There you go. But again that was how a lot of people died. You know a whole lot of people died, just like that. And we were—there was nobody else around, it was just the three of us. This rebel with his rifle, my older brother and I. And he would take his gun and he would point it at my chest by touching my body, and he would take it and he would put it on my older brothers body, right here (pointing at heart) right over your heart. And this must have gone, for 10- 15 minutes or maybe shorter, but it seemed like eternity standing there and begging for our lives, I mean begging for our lives. I’ve never begged another man more in my life, like I begged or pleaded with another man more than when I pleaded with this fool that day. But we stood there, after a while we heard a voice in the distance and there was somebody calling and they were calling a name and he responsed to the call and that’s how we knew somebody, “Tabowee, Tabowee” and he said, “Yes..” ?? And he lowered his rifle and he went running. And my older brother and I… and this is interesting because my older brother and I have never, and he lives in

London now but he is here visiting the states, I’m going to call him this evening because we never talk about it. We talk about a lot of other things that happened in the war but never talked about that experience since that day. We just let it go because we were glad to be alive.

ZD: Mhm. Well that would be me bringing that up!

PP: OH, I mean it would be good to hear what his thoughts have been over the years how’s he processed that. And here’s a guy who had gone to school in Britain, had a couple graduate degrees, he’s a university instructor and yeah, his life would have been distinguished by some illiterate guy on that day, just their lives were being distinguished

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just like that (snaps) on that day on that July day and in fact no you wouldn’t have had a grave, we wouldn’t have had a grave, like most people that died in the war didn’t have graves cause when we were walking we saw dead bodies all over the place, decomposing.

And that’s one stench you’ll never forget, it takes residence in your brain and it stay there. The scent of a decomposing human body id horrible, I don’t think there is any word in the English language that could quite capture what it’s like to smell a decomposing body and it stay with you. You talk about it and it’s like it just comes back you smell it all over again.

ZD: Are you smelling it right now?

PP: I can smell it and it is an awful odor.

ZD: Now I’m going back, what is the meaning of peace in your opinion? [1:01:6] PP:

My, what the meaning of peace? Well first and foremost, in a context of Liberia, peace means that we silent all the guns and the bombs. But beyond that peace means that we work hard to build a democratic society where we have free elections, where we have transitions of power, where we have newer laws, so we respect our constitution, and we respect the laws in the book. Peace means we create opportunities for our people, our people have jobs, our people can go to school, peace means we work to give people quality of life, so that life expectancy is not 57 years old, so that a child born today had fighting chance in this life. Peace, peace means that we create an environment where, kids can innovate, they can think and can express themselves freely whether it’s through the art or whether academia, whether, whatever that they want to be that people can believe that they can be what they want to be and its okay. Whether you turn out to be a nut-head and that’s fine, that’s what you want to be and you have the freedom to work at

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and you have the environment that supports you, that sustains you. That’s peace for me and we don’t have that right now.

ZD: If there was one thing you change about Liberia, what would it be?

PP: Hahaa. I think… we are a very illiterate society and that’s a big problem. I honestly think that is the source of most of our problems, we are such an illiterate society, if I could change one thing is the level of illiteracy in Liberia, I would change that. I work hard on education, I work hard on education cause even people who go to school, I meet a lot of university students, in sociology they talk a lot about functional illiteracy people who can read and write but really have no skills, they really cant do anything even though they are literate when it comes to working, when it comes to participating in society they’re still illiterate, they’re functionally illiterate and we have a lot of that. And then we just have an old-fashioned illiteracy people who cant read or write. A society that can’t think is a dangerous society. That’s for me the emphasis, that why I’m big on education and we have a lot of schools in Liberia but we don’t have education. We have a lot off school buildings and because of what I do now with Healthy Nation, I go to schools all the time, I visited well over 100 schools last year. And we’re not doing education; learning is not taking place in Liberia right now. Kids just get up in the morning and go to school or go to some building, put on a uniform, play around and come back home.

ZD: And they’re not learning anything.

PP: They’re not learning any thing, and that’s really sad. And it shown, that last this year has not ended yet, but it has shown in two ways, West Africa Examination Exam WAEE this exam that all ninth graders have to take, cause high school in Liberia is 10th grade,

11th grade, 12th grade, unlike here where high school starts at ninth grade, so when your

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in the 9th grade you’re a senior in junior high what we call middle school here, so you take that test and you transition into high school. Well when you’re in the 12th grade in your senior, you take WAEE as well and that ‘s like your exit exam. And this year in

Liberia of all our 12th graders, thousands of 12th graders, less than 100 made division one in that test. That is made excellence, less than 100. The University of Liberia made their entry exam; you know all universities in Liberia offer and entry exams in math and

English. 25,000 people wrote their entry exam, all 25,000 failed. So is learning taking place?

ZD: No

PP: So that scares me for the future of the country and whenever I’m in the country, I talk to people, I listen to the radio, and the level of illiteracy is just evident. When you even listen to the journalist on the radio. I was listen—I was teasing one of my cousins the other day. The second weekend that I was in the country, on a Sunday afternoon I’m sitting out, I’m sitting on the porch and my little nieces are around and this guy is ironing clothes and he has his radio really loud and I’m not sure why it’s so loud, but the radio is always loud. But he’s playing his radio and this is good, really good R&B music and then at 2 o’clock the DJ pauses to read announcement, and he has been I mean this DJ was doing a good job playing music but at 2 o’clock he pause to read 30 minutes of announcements, that part of how radio stations in Liberia generate income or revenue, so if you have say per example, lets say you have a program whatever it is, you write an announcement you take it to the radio station and you pay a fee and you r program is announced on the radio. That people hear about or if you have death in your family you write an announcement and take it to the radio station. They announce the death; they

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announce the plans for funeral and all those kind of things. So radio stations used announcements to generate revenue. Well, this DJ had 30 minutes to read public service announcements and death announcements. OH MY GOD, I never heard a grown man struggle to read so much.

ZD: Oh my

PP: He, I mean, I felt so sorry for him. You could tell from his voice, I mean after awhile his voice was cracking, it was almost like this guy was going to cry. Those announcements could not end

ZD: (Starts laughing)

PP: (Laughs as well) I could… and I’ve done radio before when I was in Liberia, I used to be on radio in Liberia. So I know a little bit about what that environment was like.

What the tension, was like in the studio. And I could sense that this guy was under so much pressure. Feel the sense of shame that he felt. He just could not read. He couldn’t read (whispers) just couldn’t read. That’s Liberia it’s just stigmatic?? of the problem.

ZD: So do you think the illiteracy is a lasting result of the war? [1:07:56]

PP: No, I think we’ve always been, we’ve always been… I mean the war had certainly exacerbated the situation, but even before the war Liberia was definitely, very illiteracy society in fact Tolbert said that the biggest problem in Liberia according to Tolbert were illiteracy, augaty?? and disease. Those three things have been exacerbated by the war.

And I think that illiteracy is at the foundation of the augaty?? and disease. ??+ for someone who is into public health now, a lot things that I see that people can really turn in their lives and they can because they don’t know it’s a result of new literacy.

ZD: So, how long do you think it’s going to take?

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PP: (Smiles/ laughs silently)

ZD: Hahaha! Don’t do that.

PP: Do what? (laughs) I’m laughing because in my mind it shouldn’t take that long, it really shouldn’t, it shouldn’t; I think that we can really…this generation of students’ K-

12 students, if we put into place the right curriculum, you know people always say, “lets give more money to our schools”, I’m a conservative when it comes to that, I don’t think money is the solution to the problems we have with schools. Yeah, we may need some money but people talk only talk money, money, money and I’m like well what about looking at the curriculum, what about the quality of our teachers, they just throw money at their problems. We can stop today, rework our curriculum for the next school year and in this generation we could turn it around. I really believe that but we’re not doing that.

We’re buying cars, you know how much money this government has spend on cars, since they came to power in January of 2006? They spent over 15 million dollars on cars, and we don’t have no roads.

ZD: And no roads… it’s just to look good?

PP: Mhm.

ZD: Okay. What do you think about the new leadership in Liberia? With the current president? [Referring to President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf]

PP: This, my assessment is this and I like to be philosophical about it. This is president was the best person to become to first post-war president. And I say that very seriously, I really believe that with all my heart, she was the best Liberian to become the first post- war president for several reasons. One she had, she enjoys the respect of the international community, two, she brought a lot of experience to the position, three, she had agitated

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through the years for Liberians so this was her opportunity to put into to place the principles and philosophies and you know the kind of programs she always agitated for.

On the other side, on the flip side of it, she was the worst person to become the post-war president. One, Liberia is still pretty much a male dominated society; she’s a single female and an old lady too. And that’s not a sexist or an ageist statement at all, that’s the truth, culturally speaking.

ZD: Yeah…

PP: She’s old, she’s 75 years old and she’s single in a male dominated society. That made her one of the worst presidents to become president. Two, the warlords that perpetrated the war are all still around. They’re in government, some are out of government but they’re there, they are right there in the country. So how do you… so let’s take Prince Johnson, he’s in the country. So if Prince Johnson does something in a male dominated to society how does she as a female go after him? And she’s a single female, see…

ZD: She can’t…

PP: She can’t, but even if she did how do you go after Prince Johnson but not go after

George Duwée? Who was also a rebel leader. See, so there is this tension, she has to balance it. I think she’s doing a fairly good job of balancing that cause it’s not an easy thing for anybody to handle, to have all these warlords around and you have to very delicately have to deal with each of them and appease them so they don’t, you don’t allow another conflict to erupt in the country. I think she’s done a very good job at appeasing them, maybe she’s gone a little too far and so that’s where we are.

ZD: Maybe it’s even harder for her as a female.

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PP: It’s no easy fit for anybody, even for a man. Now Charles Taylor did a good job at subduing other warlords but he, because he was brutal and not everybody can be brutal,

Charles Taylor was brutal, Charles Taylor was lawless, Charles Taylor put a bullet in your head without asking questions. He wouldn’t do it himself; he would send his hinge men to do it. Charles Taylor would eliminate anybody. Now she’s not that kind of person, thank God she’s not that kind of person. Have they worked to maintain the peace, they have and that’s a good thing because in that environment then some good things are happening. That’s what I think. I don’t know if I said anything bad but you know.

ZD: No, no you’re good

PP: Okay

ZD: What should future historians say about the Liberian Civil War? Well the first one?

[1:13:17]

PP: Future historians should say that the Liberian Civil War was a useless, waste of lives,

250,000 of our fellow citizens died, I got family members who died in the war. It was a useless, waste of lives; it was a useless waste of time and resources. Future historians should pray that it never happens again. Cause really, honestly what have we gained?

ZD: Nothing.

PP: There you go, nothing. We have two lost generations in Liberia right now, the generation of young people, in that picture that perpetrated the war; now their children are also lost. Two lost generations. It, it concerns me for the future of the country because what’s gonna happen in 25 years? Or in 50 years, what kind of country will we be, if we continue on current trajectory, it’s scary.

ZD: Hmm, well we’ll never grow then.

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PP: Yeah (chuckles) that right.

ZD: Looking back, how did the war change you and your family?

PP: (sniffs in and thinks shortly) I think the war made me a little… I used to love politics and I used to be passionate about Liberia, the war has made me even more passionate about Liberia. Let me explain what I mean, I used to be passionate about Liberia in terms of I want to seek political office and do the right thing. But I don’t think I had quite an understanding of what that meant maybe because I was younger. But of course the war had come, now I’m much older, I’m twice as older than when the war came. Now I understand better, what the country needs, what needs to be done to move the country forward. How to tap into the natural resources of the country. Well, in some ways I had to grow up very fast during the war years, you got to survive, father ?? It was just about survival. It wasn’t about national interest or it was just about, dude you go to do what you got to do to survive. On the other hand the war had had negative, some negative impact, so for example, I like to talk about my mom and when I go there I stay at my mothers house, cause that way she cooks everyday and that’s the good thing. But my mom used to be, for the most part a laidback, fairly quiet person. Now she is agitated, she is easily disturbed and I think that’s part of mental health consequences of the war. Now, I will be careful on how I say that because I am not a mental health expert and I don’t want to sound like I’m making a diagnosis, not at all. But I know my mom and I know that not just her, but a lot of people in Liberia have negative mental health back from the war, that’s not been treated. So in that way, people have been changed and they don’t even know it. Yeah, so Liberia is an angry country, a lot of people are angry. (Whispers) Why

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are people so angry, why do they just yell and scream? Agitated… ready to… you know mental health.

ZD: Mental health is just really hard for people…

PP: It is.

ZD: To change.

PP: I mean even making a diagnosis of mental health is challenging. Even if you have malaria, you can feel it and you know hey I got malaria and I can treat it. But most people in Liberia have never even heard of mental health.

ZD: They’re like what is that?

PP: They never even heard of the expression, exactly. So how do you even hand something that is not apart of your vocabulary, it’s not part of your consciousness, how do you deal with it?

ZD: So do you still want to run for president?

PP: I do. I do, I still want to run for president. Now it is going to be 2017, I don’t know?

I, probably not in 2017, maybe, maybe not. I think what I want to do in 2017 starts actually starting in 2014; we have mid-term elections new year. It’s really start to establish a constituency. I don’t have that right now because I’ve been out of the country long enough. But to go back home, and start to build a power?? base, build a support base then in 2017 might be a good effort to support somebody else. And then prepare for the future. But I definitely want to run for president.

ZD: I would vote for you!

PP: Well, thank you! (laughs)

ZD: How would you describe Liberia today and its chances for stability? [1:18:28]

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PP: Well, let me start with the chances, I think we have very good chances for stability.

We still have enough natural resources and that if we exploit properly, people can benefit from it. We can build our economy, we can grow our economy, we can create jobs, we can invest in education, we can invest in health care, we can invest in infrastructure. All of those things are good. Hopefully we will be able to discover oil, which would bring in even more revenue. And if we can use those things properly then we can put the country on the right foot. But realistically! (laughs)

ZD: (laughs too)

PP: Realistically, let’s just say that, we’re not, we’re not doing all that we need to do to make sure that is the future that we turn over to our children and our grandchildren and that’s unfortunate.

ZD: And is the president trying to do that?

PP: Well, you know we have a good president, we have a president whose heart is in the right place but she’s one old lady. She’s surrounded by a lot of lieutenants and I would say that the vast majority of them don’t care about the country. And a president alone cannot run a country, no matter how smart, no matter how energetic, no matter how educated, no matter how talented. A president alone cannot run a country, you need people, you know we have what you guys call, Cabinets here, we have Cabinets in

Liberia, we have 19 Cabinet ministries. That’s big, so you need 19 people you can trust, you need 19 people who can wake up everyday and work hard, those are just the top people, then you have their deputies and assistants and their directors. We just… there is a… we have limited supply; let me say that at stat fully as I can, we have limited supply of those kind of people. If we have few people who have the heart of the president the

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country would be much further ahead. But you got to remember in Liberia we also have three branches of government just like here. We have the executive, legislative, we have the judiciary. So even if one branch is doing what its supposed to do, if the other two branches are weak, you still have problems. And the legislature is very weak; the judiciary is so rotten you can smell it from space.

ZD: Hm. Wow

PP: Yeah, so the president may have good policies but if you attract businesses into the country and the judiciary is weak, so that businessmen when there is conflict, businessmen cant go to court and be sure that they will seek judiciary regress and that’s a problem. Because if you go to court, then you got to go bribe the judge, and then I got to come behind you and bribe the judge with a higher amount. Then where is justice? And you can’t, that’s not a function of the executive, that’s a function of the judiciary.

ZD: Mhm.

PP: You cannot have the president constitutionally interfering with the judiciary, you got to let the judiciary be independent and free and fair. And we don’t have that.

ZD: I feel like the younger generation can do that. Like your generation.

PP: Psh. I’m an old man (laughs).

ZD: You’re not old (laughs). Okay, second to last question. What legacy or imprint do you want to leave on this earth, when you leave?

PP: WOW! I wanted to be said (pauses) on my, the epithet on my grave should said, should say rather, “He really did care for others”. So he really did care for others. That’s how I try to live my life. My name Yarkasah means, “It means it has become good”, that’s not just a name but a burden that I carry, it’s a responsibility that I carry. So, all

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through my life I try to carry goodness wherever I go. So sometimes it means bending backwards, bend? Whatever that expression is you Americans use, Bending over backwards, is that what that mean, is that what they say?

ZD: Mm I don’t know (giggles)

PP: To be able to help other people. It makes means making persona sacrifices to elevate somebody else’s life, to make sure somebody has a smile, have food. So I try to help people in Liberia, to pay school fees to strangers. Now I’m not trying to catalog things that I do like I’m boasting but I’m saying that’s it.I just wanted it to be that I helped people, I helped somebody in whatever way that I can and I could.

ZD: That means a lot

PP: Why, thank you

ZD: Just that one phrase. Okay so is there anything I forgot that you think historians would want to know about your experience in the Liberian Civil War? [1:23:34]

PP: No, I think we did a good job. I can’t think of anything else. Maybe we can a follow up if there is something else. We could do it by phone. But I think we done a good job by covering my experiences in the war. We started with the war, talked about school years, talked about refugee years, talked about my years here. Well part of one of the things we can talk about briefly definitely, is when I went back to Liberia in 1997 (pauses). Then I went on radio. I went to the radio station and it was a Christian radio station, a friend of my Dennis Walker, he’s in Colorado now, he had a devotional program on the Christian radio station. But the secular radio stations did not have a devotional program. So I went and I walked in to this guy one day his name is Martin Brown, he’s… we’re still friends, but we never met before. I said Mr. Brown I want to do a devotional program on your

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radio station every morning. And he said, well why don’t you go and write a proposal for it sounds like a good idea. I never done anything like that before. So I got one of my friends and we wrote a 2 page proposal, what the format would be like, what I intend to accomplish. I took it to him, he read it and after a few minutes, he was like, “oh I like this, when you want to get started?” And I was like oh you’re really serious?

ZD: Hehehe

PP: So I then started. I never been in a radio station before, never been in a studio before.

Never done anything but radio. But we started, we called it, “DC Quiet Time”, and it was

Monday through Fri---, I mean seven days a week. At six o’clock in the morning, it was the program on the radio, from 6 to 6:30, I had 30 minutes prerecorded, so I played gospel music, played some hymns and then shared a devotional thought to encourage people to start their days. Cause you got to remember that this is still, this is just after

Charles Taylor became president and there is still a lot of fear, and a lot insecurity and people are uncertain about what the future holds. And so there was in the context that I became this voice that encouraged people every morning. After a few months, the guy who was the presidency of the radio station said, “Man we really love what you’re doing”, on the ?? Charles Taylor radio station there was a gentleman, Lee no Lee’s brother, he had a program, it was a talk show, Sunday morning talk show, live! And they wanted to compete with me; it was the only Sunday morning talk show. So they asked me what do you want to, we’ll give you one hour Sunday morning, live! Do your own talk show, to compete with them. I love competition and I was like, “yeah I can do it”! So we did. We called it Christianity Today, started our talk show and we competed with them for ratings. Some Sundays he beat us, most Sundays we beat him and that was cool. So

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that’s part of what I did during the war. And that’s what, that’s part of why I had to leave the country, because on that talk then I started to discuss government policies especially foreign policies, that’s when Charles Taylor was really getting involved in the war in

Sierra Leone. So with my big mouth, we started to talk about, “well if Charles Taylor say he’s a Christian and he’s a deacon in the Baptist church, “how can he be perpetrating a war in Sierra Leone, and its causing so much mayhem?” So when you ask those kinds of questions you have to leave the country.

ZD: Alright, well thank you for sharing your story with me.

PP: Well thank you it’s been a pleasure and honor.

ZD: Well that’s it.

PP: Alright! Yayy we did it.

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Historical Analysis Paper

As oral historian Studs Terkel said, “I hope that memory is valued, that we do not lose memory” (Hope Dies Last 20). As everyday events become history, the essential factor for it to be recorded and remembered is by memory. Oral history has become a old steppingstone for primary sources to be portrayed in a more personal manner. Oral history allows the interviewee to relay their personal observations and experiences from the historical time period. However, as historian William Cutler noticed, oral history carries many flaws, which sometimes are inaccurate due to, “forgetfulness, self-delusion and reticence of narrators” (Cutler 43). The bias of the interviewee can also distort the historical significance of the interview, if it is not authentic and honest. The interviewer has to be able to decipher the most suitable questions for the interviewee to answer. The biases the interviewer might have must be concealed as far as possible, so it cannot disrupt the interviewee’s memory and response. This interview with Yarkasah Peter

Paye, a post-Liberian Civil War survivor, portrays a man who had lived through terror as a young adult. A person who witnessed his country unfold just within a few years, now as an adult he finds the good in his heart to help elevate the country back to stability and good health. This interview is valuable because it confirms and adds to the facts of the civil war through a much more intimate level which captures the voice of the victims.

Oral history is way to collect personal information and facts from actual witnesses and victims who saw a historical event happen firsthand. By allowing witnesses to

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explain what they experienced during these events, it allows future historians to visualize and understand their historical significance. History books are mostly a compilation of general facts and biases, which the author selects and organizes into a readable narrative; in historical terms this is called “convergence of evidence”. However, by doing this process it does not specifically give or add insights on to that particular event, that real person involved would give. The reason for doing oral history, as oral historian Donald

Ritchie said is, “to ask the questions that have not been asked, and to collect the reminiscences that otherwise would be lost” (8). It is essential for the interviewer to dig deep into the memory of the interviewee to extricate the details that have not been exposed to the outside world. Traditional history is made up of primary and secondary sources such as letters, journals, newspaper articles, maps and government papers.

Traditional history is mostly in third person but it can be in first according to the history.

As Edward Hallet Carr said, “Accuracy is a duty, not a virtue” (2), this statement is why the approach of history is very important when it comes to oral history because the interviewee may or may not give exact facts about the event but it is more likely. That is why oral history has become such a great alternative for learning history; it brings past to life.

In my interview with Peter Paye, there was a lot of emphasis on education and illiteracy, and how Liberia desperately needs help to renew their system. Throughout this interview, Mr. Paye talked about his experiences in the war but his main focus was on the education and illiteracy with young people. As Mr. Paye said, “We have a population where 70% of Liberians We have a population where 70% of Liberians are less than 30 years old, so, very young population, very young population. And yet unemployment in

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85%. That’s a recipe for disaster” (Delaney 34). A reason why this is such a growing issue is because of the lack of enforcement in the schools. Children are going to school everyday but are not learning anything with substance that will stay in their heads. In the

9th grade and 12th grade all students take the West Africa Examination Exam to enter and exit high school. “And this year in Liberia of all our 12th graders, thousands of 12th graders, less than 100 made division one in that test” (Delaney 50). These results show that the education system is not doing its job to educate Liberian students. This is an issue because since more than half of the population is made up of Liberia’s youth, the country needs as much help to employ qualified teachers to do their job. “We can stop today, rework our curriculum for the next school year and in this generation we could turn it around. I really believe that but we’re not doing that” (Delaney 52), When they get older they can provide a better future for the nation. When in relation to the Civil War, Mr.

Paye saw that this war was useless and a complete and utter waste of human lives.

“250,000 of our fellow citizens died, I got family members who died in the war… Future historians should pray that it never happens again. Cause really, honestly what have we gained? Nothing” (Delaney 54). That is the problem with the war; it didn’t do anything but set Liberia back. Another point that Mr. Paye mentioned was the current state of

Liberia’s stability. Although the current President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf is doing her best to revive her nation, it is still very corrupt. “We can grow our economy, we can create jobs, we can invest in education, we can invest in health care, we can invest in infrastructure” (Delaney 57). If all these things can happen properly then the country would be set on the right foot. But realistically, the people are not letting that happen.

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Throughout the interview, Mr. Paye makes it very clear that the victims of the war have faced terrible hard times and have yet to recover. Many of the victims have mental illnesses that they don’t even know about. However, he did provide historical details that

I could not specifically find in my research. All I knew was that women and children were getting raped; as well as many other people were getting killed for no reason at all.

The NPFL army included mostly brainwashed young children and teens getting orders to do whatever they wanted to do. For example, he explained on how dumbfounded these young soldiers were,

Most of these guys that came from Nimba or other places they’ve never seen indoor plumbing. So before the water was cut off in Monrovia, when these guys captured people’s homes, they would just take up others home and stay in the homes. The guys were drinking from the commode because they thought they had, they said, “Oh I got my small well inside. (Delaney 37)

By learning this, if gave extra detail to how bad these young soldiers were brainwashed with drugs and no education. This reflection could not be found in history books.

However, my interview did not differ so much from the context paper, but there were still some areas in the interview where I was corrected. That gave me a better sense of understanding from my research because it helped me decipher what was true or not. For example, in the interview, based on my research from the context paper, I said to Mr.

Paye that there were seven war factions involved in the Liberian Civil War. But Mr. Paye corrected me and told me that there were only one major war faction, who was the NPFL, and then afterwards the NPFL broke into smaller groups. However, the other five so called war factions I thought, were really just tribal groups saying that they’re fighting for the country but not really helping in any way.

For example, you had the Liberian peace council that got started; you had Liberians united for democracy that got started, some of these were purely tribal

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groups, others were tribal/sectarian that is religious groups, especially LUR?, LUR was really a Muslim group… Same thing with the Lofa Defense Forces, LDF, that was another group that got started purely as a tribal group. But that’s what happens when you have so much chaos. (Delaney 34)

This confirms but sets straight that these supplementary groups actually were and which were not war factions at all. Without Mr. Paye correcting me about this, I would have not have gotten what the “seven war factions” clarified with its actually meaning. Much like most of the interview, because he gave light to a lot of the smaller personal problems that were being faced in Liberia. Statistics do not give reason to what actually happens in these historical events but a person who experienced it firsthand have the ability to expand the historical facts.

The oral history process has kept me well educated on how writing history works.

I have learned a lot especially from my interview about Liberia and where its current state is in the country. I really sadden me to know that there is so much illiteracy and lack of good education present in Liberia. Despite the 250,000 people killed as a result of this war, Liberia is still stuck in the past moving extremely slow to become a stable nation.

Liberia has the potential to be great, especially when it comes to education, health and building up its economy. What needs to stop is the hastiness of greed for personal gain.

“We’re buying cars, you know how much money this government has spend on cars, since they came to power in January of 2006? They spent over 15 million dollars on cars, and we don’t have no roads” (Delaney 52). Liberians need to stop this bad habit or else the road to a stable society will be non-existent. What will happen for Liberia in the next

50 years or 100 years? Will they still be stuck in corrupt, or using voodoo for personal gain and violence or will there be equal opportunity for her citizens. That’s the question.

The stability and future of Liberia is very important to me because when I get older and

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have children I want them to be proud to say that they are Liberian. I want them to know that when they visit Liberia that they know it’s a safe place to be and to love. Hopefully, future historians and Liberia’s youth who will read this interview, would want to see

Liberia’s future through the eyes of Peter Paye, so that we do live in “A Land of Glorious

Liberty by God’s Command”.

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Works Consulted

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Bright, Nancee Oku, dir. Liberia: America's Stepchild. Nancee Oku Bright. PBS, 2002. Film.

"The Constitution of the Republic of Liberia." The Prespective. N.p., n.d. Web. 14 Dec. 2013.

"The Cotonou Accords." Liberian Peace Accords. 43-53. N.p., n.d. Web. 14 Dec. 2013. .

Duva, Anjali Mitter. "The Lone Star: The Story of Liberia." Ed. D. Elwood Dunn. Global Connections. N.p., 2002. Web. 4 Dec. 2013.

Gbowee, Leymah. Might Be Our Powers: How Sisterhood, Prayer, and Sex Changed a Nation at War. New York City: Beast, 2011. Print.

Gbowee, Leymah. Pray the Devil Back to Hell. Prod. Abigail E. Disney. Dir. Gini Reticker. 2008. DVD

Goldsten, Forrest. “Liberian Civil War”. Cooper, Helene. 22 Dec. 2009.

Global Security. N.p., n.d. Web. 17 Nov. 2013.

"Liberians Flee City as Rebels Advance." The Washington Post 30 May 1990: pg. 1. Big Chalk. Web. 30 Nov. 2009.

"Liberians Flee City as Rebels Advance; Guerrillas Reported near Airport; Government Appeals for Calm." Washington Post [New York] 30 May 1990: n pag. Print.

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Milestones: 1830-1860 Founding of Liberia: 1847." US Department of State. N.p.,n.d. Web. 10 Dec. 2013.

Nmoma, Veronica. "The Civil War and the Refugee Crisis in Liberia." Journal of Conflict Studies (1997): n. pag. Journal of Conflict Studies. Web. 15 Dec. 2013.

Paye, Peter. Personal Interview Conducted by Zsari Delaney. December 29, 2013.

Reef, Catherine. "Beyond the Reach of Mixture." Preface. This Our Dark Country: The American Settlers of Liberia. New York City: Clarion, 2002.

Sirleaf, Ellen Johnson. This Child Will Be Great. New York City: Harper Collins, 2009. Print.

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