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Commission of Inquiry Into State Capture Held at Parktown, Johannesburg 10 22 July 2019 Day 137 20

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Commission of Inquiry Into State Capture Held at Parktown, Johannesburg 10 22 July 2019 Day 137 20 COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG 10 22 JULY 2019 DAY 137 20 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 PROCEEDINGS COMMENCE ON 22 JULY 2019 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe, good morning everybody. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Good morning Chairman. Chairman just as a… CHAIRPERSON: Been – it has been quite some time we last saw you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Mr Chair – Chairman you know that you keep us very busy doing back office work and the Vrede Dairy matter which is the one that is before you today. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Is like an octopus with a million tentacles so we have been keeping busy. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no that is fine. Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman just as a preliminary point I do know that a couple of implicated parties’ legal representatives are here. I do not know if you simply want me to place them on record by telling you who they are or if you would prefer them to come up and place themselves on record. CHAIRPERSON: I think they should come up and place themselves on 20 record if the intention is for them to be on record but sometimes they just want to be present informally and not formally. Maybe I should say those who wish to place themselves on record should come up and do so. So that gives a chance to those who do not want to be placed on record formally to just sit there informally. Okay thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Thank you Chairman. Page 2 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 ADV ALPHEUS DENGA: As it please the hearing Chair I am Alpheus Denga. I will be representing Mosebenzi Zwane in the proceedings. Thanks. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you. Good morning Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. ADV TLELY: I am Ms Tletli from Morocco Attorneys we will be representing Ms Namalele and Ms Qabathe in these proceedings Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. I do not know whether it is the 10 microphone today or whether it is people speaking very softly because with Ms Gcabashe too I felt that her voice was soft. I think they are trying to do something. Just raise your voice so everybody knows who you are and who you represent. ADV TLELY: Thank you Chair. I am Ms Tleli frokm Morocco Attorneys we will be representing Ms Qabathe and Ms Namalele. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. ADV TLELY: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Thank you Chairman. 20 CHAIRPERSON: That is much better. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: It is much better thank you yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman in terms of the hearing schedule of the team today in fact for this week we will be leading the evidence of matters that occurred in relation to the Vrede Integrated Dairy Farm Page 3 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 which we in short call the Vrede Dairy Farm. Central to the investigations of the commission has been the quest Chairman to interrogate 1. The decisions that were taken by various public officials and functionaries. 2. The compliance with legal prescripts by those officials and 3. An effort to identify who the ultimate beneficiaries of the close to 280 million that was dispersed by government between 2012 and 2018 for this dairy project could have been. 10 So there is quite a bit of evidence that we will be placing before you Chairman. Evidence which falls within the terms of reference this commission is seized with in particular term of reference 1.4 and term of reference 1.9. I will not go through them Chairman because it is – CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: You have heard so much about those terms already. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, okay. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: I – I do want to say Chairman that we have had a cooperation from the Department – affected departments and I 20 think that is thanks to your entreaty to them every now and again to come forward and assists us with documents. So I do want to say they have been helpful and in fact Chairman we have a reference bundle that I will take you through. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: In a short while which is comprised of Page 4 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 documents that were furnished by those departments. CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine. That is fine. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Rule 3.3. Notices Chairman we have a list of 3.3 Notices that have been issued. I think all is in order in that regard. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman Rule 6.5 has relevance. Transcripts of proceedings that have preceded our commission hearings. I have said to the witnesses as we have interviewed them 10 that where they have been part of any proceedings they should please indicate such and where possible we have tried to get transcripts. In that regard Chairman you will find again with your leave that we have collected a couple of court records. Because they are affidavits made under oath that certain people have deposed to that we have the used where we have not been able to speak to those witnesses we have been used to interrogated – have been used by us to interrogate the facts that have are [indistinct]. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman next I will then go through the 20 exhibits that we will be handing up this morning. This particular chapter falls under the HH HH – H for happy. HH series Chairman. The witness bundles for today are marked HH1 and HH2. However Chairman we have been furnished with a supplementary affidavit by the first witness who will be Mr Jankielsohn because of your directive that where possible any amendments should be done prior to the hearing. Page 5 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 And that really is the essence of what that supplementary deals with. It also has an annexure – a new annexure but the bulk of it really deals with just corrections that we would normally have done in the course of the first ten minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: So Chairman we then end up with Exhibit HH1.1 and 1.2 in respect of Mr Jankielsohn which we will ask you to admit into evidence. When Ms Buthelezi leads the evidence of Mr Venter later today we will then deal with HH2.1 and I believe he too is 10 trying to prepare a supplementary dealing with exactly the same issues. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: There may be one or two more and there may just be a 2.2 as well. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: But the base statements Chairman they made earlier this year are the base statements that are in those files. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman may I just… CHAIRPERSON: Well shall I immediately – so HH – Exhibit HH2 20 ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: That would be Mr Venter. So that is for this afternoon Chair. CHAIRPERSON: That is not here. That is not before me or did – was it included here in this lever arch file? ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman it is one lever arch file. It is in that lever arch file. There is a divider. Page 6 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: That separates HH1. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: And HH2. Have you been able to locate it Chairman? CHAIRPERSON: Well let us say in regard to – or the statements and annexures relating to Mr Roy Jankielsohn and Mr Albertus Johannes Venter are contained in one lever arch file. The statement relating to Mr Roy Jankielsohn is marked or will be Exhibit HH1 and the statement 10 and annexures relating to Mr Albertus Johannes Venter will fall under Exhibit HH2. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: That is correct Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: So the one lever arch file has two exhibits. One Exhibit HH1, the other Exhibit HH2. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: That is correct Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Is that right? ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Save that. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Because of the supplementaries where they 20 are just making those minor largely amendments. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Yes, Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: We have then split that to a 1.2. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: A 1.1 and 1.2 to accommodate the supplementaries. But 1 still refers to Mr Jankielsohn’s statement. Page 7 of 185 22 JULY 2019 – DAY 137 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: HH1. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. No that is fine. Alright. It may be – it may be that it is convenient if possible to keep each statement and its annexures either or the statement and annexures relating to one witness. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Under one exhibit. Even if it means the file must be a smaller file it is much easier than if we put more than one into one 10 lever arch file. But for this one we will leave it as it is. Ja okay. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Thank you – thank you Chairman we will arrange for that to be done during the tea break. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: One second. Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABSHE SC: Thank you Chairman. Chairman then additional documents that we will be using over the two weeks that we will be dealing with Estina we have a week now Chairman and then a bit of a break and another week of hearings is formulated in the 20 following manner Chairman.
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