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KINGSTON. ONTARIO THE

School Question.

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SPEECH

OF

|WR. JAJHES FISJ1EH, |W. P. P.,

IN THE

Manitoba Legislature, 2nd March, 1S93.

— — THE SCHOOli QUESTION.

Speech of Mr. James Fisher, in the Legislature of Manitoba, on March 2nd, 1893, on moving his Resolution in favor of adopting- the Ontario School System.

Mr. Fisher spoke as follows : tial that without it Confederation could never have taken place.' Mr. Speaker: 5. * The same difficulty confronted the In rising to move the resolution on the Parliament of Canada when framing the school question which appears on the or- Constitution of this Province, intensified, der paper, I think it will be convenient however, by the suspicions and jealousies that I should read to the house the reso- aroused at that time among the native lution itself. I desire to move, Sir: population of the settlement; and con- " That in the opinion of this House one formably to the spirit of said clauses in of the chief difficulties in government the Act of Union, as well as with a view- that harassed the statesmen of the old to remove all grounds for such feelings Canadian Provinces, under the Union of on the part of the settlers, the difficulty and for which a remedy was sought was met by the educational clauses of the in the present larger union, arose from Manitoba Act, limiting the power of the the impracticability of adopting laws re- Legislature under certain conditions to garding education for the respective Pro- pass laws respecting education, and pro- vinces, that were acceptable alike to the viding in some cases for an appeal to the Protestant and Roman Catholic popula- Federal power on the part of the minor- tions therein. ity, against provincial laws relating to that " 2* This unhappy'difficulty was due to subject and for remedial legislation by the irreconcilable differences between the the Federal Parliament. opinions of the Protestant population 6. "Subject to these limitations the and the dogmatic teachings of the Roman Legislature of this Province has the ex- Catholic church, on the subject of denom- clusive right to make laws with respect to inational instruction in public schools. education in the Province, and this House 3. " The only solution, and that by no will at all times most zealously defend means universally satisfactory, which the and maintain that right, within the true framers of Confederation arrived at in intent and meaning of the Constitution dealing with this question, was that and to the full extent thereof, against any found in the educational clauses of the encroachment thereupon or interference British North America Act, which practi- therewith by the Federal authorities. cally prohibited Provincial Legislatures " from passing laws prejudicially affecting 7. The Legislature having in 1890 rights with respect to denominational passed the School Law now in force in "schools which the law of the Province the Province, and the Roman Catholic recognized at the Union, and giving to minority having contested in the Courts the Catholic or Protestant minority in the power of the Legislature to pass that any Province wherein such schools should law on the ground that it prejudicially be established after the Union, a right of affected their rights existing at the time appeal to the Federal powers against any of Union, this House declares that the re- law affecting the rights thus established, cent judgment of the Judicial Committee with power to the Dominion Parliament of the Privy Council affirming the com- to pass remedial legislation under that petence of the Legislature to pass that law appeal. is decisive and final, and sets at rest for 4. " The House recognizes that this all time the question of Legislative juris- provision, the application of which was diction in so far as passing such a law is not limited in its terms to any part or concerned. parts of the Dominion, was an essential 8. " Without passing an opinion upon feature of the terms of Union, and that the question, which is one for a judicial it was in fact, as described by Sir Oliver rather than a political body to determine, Mowat, when speaking of it in reference whether there be still any right of appeal to the old Canadian Provinces, 'So essen- to the Federal Jurisdiction open to the

A -4 r^H*v, Roman Catholic minority, this House is bring before this House for its adoption conscious that the judgment of the Judi- resolution of the character that I have just cial Committee does not necessarily ex- read, and that I venture to offer my clude such a right, while it is known to reasons for so doing. the House that such an appeal has in fact I did not have the privilege of being been presented and is now under the present to take part in the discussion that consideration of the Federal Executive. took place in this House in 1890, when 9. " The entertaining of such an appeal, the school act of that year was introduced particulary if followed by any attempt on and passed. At the same time, I suppose the part of the Federal Executive or Par- there .was no one then in the liament to revise or modify the provincial House who did not know pretty well law, even although such action may be what my views were upon that question. strictly warranted by the constitution, is Sir, it is not necessary for me here to say calculated, whether reasonably or unrea- that in so sar as the simple question of sonably, to arouse feelings of bitter hos- national public schools—non-sectarian tility against such action in the minds of schools as against separate and sectarian the provincial majority, and it is liable to schools is concerned, no man would go bring about a bitter contest upon a most further than I would to have non-sec- delicate question between the Federaland tarian schools established if there were no Provincial powers. Such a contest, serious objections or just cause which hitherto happily avoided under Confeder- stood in the way. I am old enough to ation, threatens to involve consequences have taken a deep interest in that ques seriously affecting the harmony of the tion when it agitated Upper Canada many

Union, and this House sincerely hopes years ago ; I am old enough to remember that such a result may, by wise counsels, the strong, the bitter fight that the Lib • be avoided. eral party made on the question at that 10. " This House protests that it has no time. I formed my opinion then in desire to deprive any class. of the com- favor of national, and against separate munity of any rights secured, or that were schools, and I have never Jiad intended to have been secured, to them occasion to change that opinion. by the Constitution, and it has every dis- And the views I formed at that time, position, as this resolution amply testifies, against separate and in favor of national to do full justice to all classes, without schools, are just as strong to day as they interference at the hands of any other were then. The question as to the pro- authority. priety or the impropriety, the advantage 11. " And having regard to the history or the disadvantage of adopting the one of the whole question, not only in this or the other of the two systems, national Province, but in the older Provinces of or separate schools, I am not called upon the Dominion; having in view also the to night to discuss. I simply mention the undoubted success of the well-tried edu- fact that in forming my own opinion in cational system of the sister Province of years past I preferred national as against Ontario, a system which after a test of separate schools. thirty years is still approved, subject to a We are confronted to-day with another few minor objections by all classes there; issue which compels us to consider the and believing that a like system ought to question from another standpoint. Three satisfy the Roman Catholic minority in years ago we established our present sys- Manitoba without returning to that tem of national schools and the great which was in vogue prior to 1890, this majority affirmed its adherence to that House declares its readiness to make a system. We are threatened now with settlement of the whole matter by adopt- proceedings in the nature of an appeal to ing an educational system based on that the federal powers which may lead to re of Ontario, modified however as far as medial legislation by the Dominion par- need be, to meet the circumstances of this liament, and which may also lead to the Province, and stripped of any minor fea- serious consequences that I have indicated tures that may in a liberal view of it be in the resolution which I have just read, deemed objectionable by this House." and I am going to trouble the House to I confess, Mr. Speaker., that I never in listen to me while I state my views on this this House or elsewhere, rose to speak most grave and important question, not with a deeper sense of responsibility than so much from a legal aspect as from an I feel at this moment, and it is only from historical point of view. Honorable a clear sense of duty that I decided to members will, I hope, bear with me " —

5 patiently while I go over the facts that 1 there is an appeal against that law, after it intend to recall in laying the matter is passed, to the federal power. before them. The first contention of the Catholic The question now agitating the pro- minority was that our legislation

was ultra vires . ? Because, vince is whether there is a right of Why appeal against the law open to the minor- they said, it prejudicially affected certain rights with respect ity, and to this I first propose to direct to Cath- attention. We have the undoubted fact olic schools which they had enjoyed at the Union. that question they that there is by the constitution such an Upon appeal allowed under certain circumstan- went to the courts and have failed. The second contention was that in any event ces. To know that we need only just read the statute. Let me refer t© the they had a right of appeal to the Federal even if the in wording of the law. We have it set forth power law was the mean- in our Manitoba act, passed by the Do- time good. Upon that question they did minion parliament and ratified by the not go to the courts, because the remedy Imperial parliament That act provides provided by law is by way of appeal to that our legislature shall have the exclu- the Governor-General in Council. I am sive power to pass legislation with regard not now discussing the question whether to education, subject however to two the minority have a case that will entitle them to succeed in their appeal. I sim- limitations : The first of these limitations ply desire to make it clear to honorable is as foilows : gentlemen that there is, beyond question, (1) ' Nothing in any such law shall a right of appeal under certain circum- prejudicially affect any right or privilege stances, and that the minority have the with respect to denominational schools, right now to set up the contention at all which any class of persons have by law or events that it is a proper case for appeal. practice in the province at the union ;" Referring to the two limitations upon our And the next clause is in these words : power to legislate on this question, I (2) "An appeal shall lie to the Gover- think it was Mr. Edward Blake who thus nor-General in Council from any act or described the position from a provincial decision of the legislature of the province, standpoint. "We in the provinces can, or of any provincial authority, affecting within the boundaries of these limitations, any right or privilege of the Protestant legislate on the question of education or Roman Catholic minority of the when, where and how we please. But if Queen's subjects in relation to educa- we out-step those boundaries in one cer-

tion . tain defined direction our legislation is ultra vires if Now that is plain English. An appeal — we out-step those boun- shall lie to the Governor-General in daries in another direction, it is subject to Council against any act of the legislature appeal to another jurisdiction." of this province affecting any right of the Let us bear in mind in the next place Roman Catholic minority in respect to why these limitations were created. The education. That I say is perfectly plain. law plainly states that they were created There is then an appeal in certain cases, for the protection of the minority, as be- and as that right to appeal exists by law tween Protestants and Catholics. It is under the constitution, the Roman Cath- an extraordinary thing that we read so olic minority clearly have a right to assert much from day to day in the newspapers and present it in the manner prescribed. about the so-called wickedness of interfer- The only question is whether they can ing with the will of the majority in this make out a case for such an appeal . If matter. Will hon. gentlemen please beai in they do not they cannot succeed in it. mind, Mr. Speaker, that this provision But we must not deny their right to assert was inserted in the constitution for the that they have such a case, nor can we one and only purpose of protecting the deny their right to submit it for decision minority, and if there was not a minority to the body to whom alone the appeal to be protected and a majority to be re- can be made. There are plainly two sisted there would not have been such a limitations, as you will observe, to our law. The fact is that the protection of powers to legislate on the question of the minority is inseparable from our Fed- education. The first is tha't under certain eral system The majority do not usual- circumstances our law may be bad, that ly need protection. They can protect is, ultra vires. The second is that in some themselves as a rule, but the minority re- cases in which we may indeed pass a law, quire the arm of the law to step in and .

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safeguard them. Take the Irish case. to deal with these two applications, and What is Mr. Gladstone doing to-day? He how did they do so ? They refused the is standing before the House of Commons first. They said in effect "we will not in England with a bill providing home disallow that Act, because the legislature rule for Ireland, one of the main and of Manitoba had a right, prima facie, to most essential features ol which is the pass it. It had the right if the case does protection of the Protestant minority in not come within the limitation in the first that country. If Mr. Gladstone carries clause. If the law is beyond the power that measure and it becomes law a limi- of the legislature to pass there is no need tation will be placed upon the power of for us to disallow it, and as to that ques- the parliament of Ireland to legislate with tion the courts will determine it, and to respect to all questions affecting the rights the courts you have already appealed. If of the Protestant minority in that coun- it is bad, there is an end to it; it is try. Will it be said that the Catholic waste paper, and there is no need of dis- majority in the Irish parliament will be allowing it. Whether it is appealable is a justified in denouncing the Protestant mi- different question, which we are not going nority because the latter may attempt to to decide now. Go on with your action take advantage of that provision and to at law first and if the court holds that seek thereunder the rights and remedies the law is bad you have your remedy, that the constitution provides for them? but if the court holds the law is good we Surely not. I am not now discussing will then consider whether you have a the propriety or impropriety of the pro- right to appeal." To my mind that was visions in our constitutional Act. I am plain common sense. simply taking the law as it is, and point- Now I want to point out to hon. gentle- ing out that it is what it is, and that we men that there was a strict precedent for are bound by it. This right of appeal all this in the New Brunswick school case. from a majority is seen in ordinary life That province, through its legislature, in every day. In the field of sport, for in- 1871, passed a school Act, somewhat like stance, it may be at foot ball, or I care the Manitoba school law, declaring that not what it is, there may be a division there should be no sectarian schools The amongst the contestants on some question, Catholics of New Brunswick went to the with perhaps 25 voices against 5. The government of Canada and asked them majority may declare one way, but the to disallow that law, as prejudicially minority have their protection in an ap- affecting them in relation to education peal to the umpire, and that one man's The first clause of the B N. A. Act, it will voice may overrule the majority and sus- be remembered, protected denominational tain the minority. So it is in every case schools only in so far as they existed by in which a parliament makes a law for law at the Union. In this respect it was the protection of- the minority This scarcely so wide as the Manitoba Act. right of appeal does not depend upon the The presumption being with the province, equality or inequality of the contestants, those who attacked the law had to show but simply on the question whether the affirmatively that the legislature exceeded law gives the right. its powers. In New Brunswick, as it hap- In the case we are considering, the law pened, there was no law providing for or does certainly give the right under cer- authorizing denominational schools at the tain circumstances, and we cannot com- time of the Union, therefore it did not plain if the minority seek to avail them- come within the case provided for in the selves of it. The only question is whether constitution. Sir John Macdonald's an- the present circumstances justify the swer wajsin effect: claim now asserted. Undoubtedly the "I find no law on the statute book of majority have a perfect right to contend New Brunswick creating or sanctioning that they do not. It is equally clear denominational schools at the time of the that the minority have the like right to Union." contend the contrary. The remedy There having been no such law ex- sought by the minority, as I have said, was isting at the time of the Union, no twofold. Petitions were sent to Ottawa rights under such a law could be inter- in the spring of 1890, immediately after fered with by the new law, and therefore the Act was passed, asking first, that the he refused to disallow it. The minority Act be disallowed, and second, that an ap- were not satisfed to let the matter rest, Eeal be allowed under the clause that I and they put in a petition to parliament ave read. The Federal government had for redress,and the question arose whether parliament could interfere. There was "And this House deems it expedient no supreme court in existence at that that the opinion of the law officers of the time, to which, as now is the case, a ques- crown of England, and if possible the tion of that kind could be referred. It opinion of the judicial committee of the so happens that the wording of the Bri- privy council should be obtained* * * with tish North America Act limits the right the view of ascertaining whether the case of appeal, atjwell as the objection of ultra comes within the terms of the 4th sub- vires, to casis in which there were rights sec of the 93rd clause oi the B. N. A. existing by law, the right of appeal being Act which authorizes the parliament of extended to protect rights created by law Canada to enact remedial laws," &c.

after the Union as well as before it. That is to say, the government felt that Neither before nor after the Unibn, how- they could not interfere because the ever, had there been any law sanctioning Catholic minority were not protected by denominational schools in that province strict law. Mr. Mackenzie was not satis- At the same time while New Brunswick fied that that was fair. He in his big, had not separate schools at the time of fenerous, honest, manly heart felt that the Union, recognized by law, they were e could not be satisfied to leave them practically allowed to exist; that is, al- without redress, and he declared that if though the law did not authorize them there was any way at all by which these the administration the law permitted of Eeople could get what he called justice, them. And the majority in parliament e was going to help them to get it and said that though the law did not protect he therefore moved that that additional the Catholic minority these people, hav- clause be added to the Colby resolution, ing practically enjoyed their separate so that if at all possible some means schools ought to be allowed to continue might be found by which the parliament them. When it was found that the min- of Canada might interfere and pass reme- ority had no legal redress, so far as the dial legislation. That clause, too, was government could see its way to give it carried by an immense majority, the to them, who do you think was the man, Liberals of Ontario voting for it. Mr. all above others who stepped out of his Mackenzie would give the minority all place to ? help them A man Sir, whose the assistance he could. He thought it name has been for many years on the was a proper thing to give them their rights lips of the people of Canada, and on the —not only what they had in strict law, lips even of my hon. friends who in- but all that they had by practice enjoyed. troduced this law of ours, as the purest He was built that way. He said, in effect : and most highminded of Canadian States- "as there is a doubt whether we have men—that honorable and honored man, power to aid the minority, we will sub- Alexander Mackenzie. And associated mit it to the law officers in England and with him was that other great man, equ- to the privy council if possible to see if ally honored and admired by all Liberals, we cannot give them redress." Mr. Edward Blake. They both spoke on the Dalton McCarthy thinks it absurd, as does question, and contended that the theory also our own attorney -general, to submit underlying the settlement made at the such things for judicial enquiry. But Union was, that whatever rights practical- Mr. McCarthy is not Alexander Macken- ly existed at the Union should never be zie . Let me remind you what Mr. Mac- taken away from the minority. Mr. Mac- kenzie's position was in the House at that kenzie and Mr. Blake were bold enough, time. He was the leader of the opposi- honest enough and fair enough, to get up tion, while Sir John Macdonald was the in the House and express their real views leader of the government. When this and their honest convictions in the matter. question—the most troublesome the then After a resolution had been introduced by government ever had to deal with, apart Mr. Colby, a Lower Canadian Protestant, from the Pacific scandal—came up, Mr. urging the legislature of New Brunswick Mackenzie, had he been a different man to allow the Catholic minority in that to what he was, could have raised a reli- province to continue in the enjoyment of gious cry ; he could have mounted the the privileges that they practically had protestant horse and could have ridden at the Union, whether it was by legal sanc- into power. But he thought justice I tion or not, after that resolution I say was and honor and fair dealing of more im- carried by an immense majority in the portance than office; and would sacrifice House, Mr. Mackenzie moved to supple- any chances that he had rather than take ment it by adding to it these words: — .

8 advantage of a religious cry to get into think you of this, sir, the government of power. that day actually paid the costs of the New The opinion of the law officers of the Brunswick minority. It was thought a Crown was in due course obtained and it reasonable thing that the minority, having was just the same as that of Sir John come to get redress, and it being desired Macdonald, which he had previously by the government at Ottawa that the given. It could not very well be other- question should go to the counts to obtain wise. The law officers could find no law a judicial opinion upon it, it was thought on the New Brunswick statute books nothing but reasonable, I say, that the which gave the minority any legal rights government should pay the costs of ob- at any time. The government also en- taining that opinion. As to the sugges- quired whether the question could be tion that the Dominion Government are heard before the judicial committee of pursuing a policy of delay I am not called the privy council, and the answer was that on here to express any opinion upon it. it could not, unless the question came Now, Mr. Speaker, an attempt is being up before them in a law suit. Let me made to lead the public to believe that now lead you to the next step. This this proposed appeal of the Manitoba mi- answer came to the parliament of Canada nority is an appeal to the federal powers as I have just stated, in response to against the decision of the privy council Mr. Mackenzie's resolution, that nothing Mr. Dalton McCarthy, in his Stayner could be done in the Old Country. Did speech, spoke of "a so-called tribunal un- Mr. Mackenzie even then give up the dertaking to reconsider, rehear and possi- bly to reverse the decision of the privy fight for the Roman Catholic minority ? No. He was the sort of man who always council in favor of Manitoba." He surely fought for the weakest side, and the mi- knows very well that this is not an nority, so long as he thought it the side attempt to revise or reverse the decision, of justice. The government of New and that it has nothing in fact to do with Brunswick found that their act of 1871 that decision, excepting that that decision was faulty in some respects, the tax by- has the effect of leaving no other remedy laws under it were illegal and they had open to the minority than that by way of to pass another act, making these by-laws appeal. valid. They passed this act in 1872. There is another mistake Mr. McCarthy Well, when this answer came back to the makes, and that is saying that the privy Earliament of Canada, Mr. Mackenzie a&d. council decided that the legislature had a is followers again said "we are not satis- right to do away with separate schools. fied with that. 'We will allow the minor- The judgment of the privy council did

ity to frame a lawsuit which they can not say that ; it said that Roman take into the courts —like the Barrett case Catholics had exactly the same right now « in our time—and enable them to get a to keep up their separate schools that they i legal decision. " But Mr. Mackenzie with had at the time of the union. The privy his followers went a step further. He council said, indeed, that the Catholics of urged that until the law suit should be de- Manitoba had an undoubted right to be cided, the legislature of New Brunswick protected in the enjoyment of every priv- should not put the act of 1871 into force, ilege that they practically enjoyed at the and that legislature refusing to delay the union. But they said the Catholic operation of the act, Mr. Mackenzie and schools at the union were only voluntary his followers voted for the disallowance schools, that there were no state grants of the act of 1872, under which alone the given to them at that time, and that being act of 1871 became effective. I dare say the case, they are in the same position to- I am speaking of facts not known to some day as they were then, and that the refusal of my honorable friends, and I am sorry to give them state grants now left them more of them are not in their places to in practically the same position that they hear these facts. I ask you, sir, where is were in at the time of the union.

the distinction between the action of the Again Mr. McCarthy said : then government in the New Brunswick " Everybody supposed that as a court of case and that of the present Federal gov- the highest character, a court of the high- ernment in this case ? There was the same est and greatest renown, had pronouncec"

1 refusal to disallow ; there were the same in favor of the constitutionality of the Act steps to get up a lawsuit for a test case; of the province, that that would be the there was a consideration of the question last of it." How could Mr. McCarthy of appeal for remedial legislation,and what have expected that that would be the last of it, knowing as he did that the appeal other men saw that such an appeal as this was actually before the government three was likely to arise if Mr. Dalton Mc- years ago ? He says everybody thought Carthy never saw it; and that greater so. Well, I certainly never thought so. men than he saw it, and that they most Three years ago nearly, in a letter I wrote wisely saw fit to provide, three years ago, on the subject, I pointed out the certainty for this very appeal being fairly and pro- that the very thing that has happened perly considered and adjudicated on. As now would happen if the decision snould soon as we passed this law here in 1890, be for the province . I will read for the petitions were sent to Ottawa, as I have information of the House what I then stated, both by way of appeal and for dis- said: "Assuming that the strictly constitu- allowance With these petitions as I have tional question—that is the question in- said the government had to deal. There volved in the Barrett case—is decided in was in the parliament of Canada at that our favor, I see another and greater diffi- time a man of commanding position, a culty before us. There is a further clause giant in intellect, a man of wide and lib- in the Act of Confederation, re-enacted, eral views, whom most of us in this House with some modifications in the Manitoba were proud to own as our leader for many Act, which affects the question very ser- years. I refer to the Hon. Edward Blake iously." I proceeded to quote the clause who at that time was not bound to any of the B. N. A. Act giving a right of ap- party, but who occupied an independent peal and then showed how that clause was position in the House, while in full ac- as I contended, made even more clear in cord generally with the party of whom the Manitoba Act in favor of an appeal. Mr. Laurier had became the honored And I said: "Once more we must give leader. Sir John Macdonald was then at the legislation a meaning, and who can the head of the government, and when doubt that it was intended, and that it has the question of the Manitoba school case the effect, to give to the Catholic minority came up Mr. Edward Blake and Mr. in Manitoba an absolute right to appeal Laurier could have combined together to to the governor-general in council against make trouble for Sir John. But what any legislation affecting their rights in re- did Mr. Blake do ? He at once moved a lation to education. * * Granting once resolution making express provision for more that there is a possibility of a decision the disposition of this matter. That man that sub-clause one, even as modified in whose position was untrammeled, a man the Manitoba Act, does not restrain us al- of high character, lofty statesmanship and together from legislating in the direction pure aims, foresaw a most serious trouble of abolishing separate schools and creat- arising, and he rose to the occasion. I ing a system that does not permit of their am going to read the resolution which he existence, is there any doubt that under moved in the Commons and will follow it sub-clause three the Roman Catholics have with some quotations from the speech a clear right of appeal from our new law. which he then made upon it. On the 29th Failing to succeed on the constitutional of April, 1890, Mr. Blake moved: question is will there any doubt that they "That it is expedient to provide means ?" make the appeal whereby on solemn occasions touching 1 say for my part that I will be no the exercise of the power of disallowance, party, and I ask this House to declare by or of the appellate power as to educa- this resolution, that it will be no party, to tional legislation, important questions of the re-opening of the privy council deci- law or of fact may be referred by the ex- sion. The Catholic minority chose to go ecutive to a high judicial tribunal for to the courts in the way they did to seek hearing and consideration, in such mode that particular form of redress, and the that the authorities and parties interested court has declared (being very careful may be represented, and that a reasoned however, to say that they do not give opinion may be obtained for the inform- anjr opinion as to the justice of the com- ation of the executive." })laint of the minority), that under the That was the resolution, and I am aw they could not give them that redress; going to read you something from the and we are justified in opposing any pro- Hansard report of his speech. I want ceedings that will re-open that question. first however to tell this House, that this At the same time* I say there is still left resolution was moved by Mr. Blake main- open the question of appeal which has not ly for one reason, and one reason only, been effected by that decision. as his speech indicates, and that was to Now I wish to point out to you that facilitate the settlement of the Manitoba "

school case, and that especially in view of pending, as to whether recent the presentation of the appeal to Ottawa, be within the rights of the provincial that we have now before us. At page legislature, and whether any relief is due 4084 of the Hansard 1890, Mr. Blake is under the appellate clause to those who thus reported: "Recent, current and im- claim it, you have a legal question, or minent events have combined to convince rather in this case a mixed question of one that it is important in the public in- law and of fact, * * and it seemed to terests that this motion should receive at- me that in this particular instance I was tention during this session, else I should constrained to provide for an emergency not have propounded it at this time * * which may arise. The general notion that the executive the Dwelling still further on the danger of legislative and the judicial departments of a political body like the Dominion execu- government ought to be so far as practica- tive having to decide delicate questions ble separate and apart is one held by many like these without the aid of a of the most eminent constitutionalists, judicial body, Mr. Blake proceeded: "Now as a fundamental principle. * * The I aver that in the decision of all legal absolute union of these departments * questions it is important that the political * * is absolute despotism. * * The executive should not, more than can be degree to which, without overweakening avoided, arrogate to itself judicial powers, or overcomplicating the action of the ma- and that when in the discharge of its chine, you can separate them, marks the political duties it is called upon to deal degree to which, in this aspect of a con- with legal questions, it ought to have stitutional system, you have attained per- power in cases of solemnity and impor- fection. I do not say that they can be tance, where it may be thought expedient absolutely and always separated. It is so to do, to call in aid the judicial de- not so. * * * I by no means propose partment in order to arrive at a correct to withdraw from the executive, its duty. solution." * * * "My own opinion # * * i make no attempt at this time to is that wherever, in opposition to the con- discuss the propriety of these constitution- tinued view of a provincial executive and al provisions (referring to the two matters, legislature, it is contemplated to disallow disallowance and appeal that came with- a provincial act as ultra vires, there ought in the scope of his resolution.) * * * to be a reference and also that there My object is without discussing how far ought to be a reference in certain cases they are wise, taking them as they are, to where the condition of public opinion facilitate the better woiking of them." renders expedient a solution of legal prob- Mr. Blake then goes onto explain why, lems, dissociated from these elements of under the first clause of his resolution, he passion and expediency which are rightly wishes the question of exercising the or wrongly often attributed to the action power of disallowance, as to school legisla- of political bodies. And again I would tion to be submitted to a court. He recommend such a reference in all cases of educational appeal cases which necessarily points out that if an act is ultra vires it invoke the feelings to Avhich I have is void, and "it is now generally agreed that void acts should not be disallowed, alluded and to one of which I am frank but should be left to the action of the to say my present motion is due." courts." That is just what Sir John Thus we find Mr. Blake earnestly ad- Thompson, as Minister of Justice, said vising a reference to a judicial body in all when he gave his decision on the question cases of educational appeal, and he frankly a year later. Continuing, Mr. Blake tells the House that he introduced his said, "The other class of cases to which resolution with special reference to the my motion alludes is that of the educa- Manitoba school case and in order to pro- tional appeal which arises under section vide machinery for the submission of that 93 of the Constitutional act, and under very Manitoba appeal. So desirous was the provisions of the Manitoba act." he indeed that full consideration should He concludes therefore that the ques- be given to the appeal and a sound con- i tion whether an act is ultra vires or not clusion reached, that he particularly dwelt is a question of law for the courts, and on the necessity for all parties taking part referring once more to the Manitoba in the argument before the tribunal. appeal case he says, "Again, when you Let me quote his words : "I attach little act on the appellate educational clauses, comparative importance to judicial solu- as, for example in the case of Manitoba, tions, reached without argument. * * * the very case which is now in a sense The experience of mankind has established 11 as the essential ingredients for the attain- shoulders of the judges, we are forced to ment of justice between man and man the conclude that the people who talk that opposing arguments of the parties before a way have never read trie speech or resolu- tribunal, and the reasoned judgment of tion of Edward Blake advising the refer- that tribunal. * * * Let the oppos- ence to the judges, or the statement of Sir ing views be stated, presented and sifted John Macdonald that such reference in public and in tne presence of the should not lesson executive responsibility. parties, so that the best material for con- In 1891, two years ago now, a law was sideration will be obtained." His idea passed by the Dominion parliament in then was that all parties interested ought the terms of Mr. Blake's resolution. It to a})]> ear before that tribunal and discuss made provision for referring, as Mr. Blake the question, and I would have said to suggested, to the Supreme court for its my honorable friend, the Attorney-Gen- opinion, any appeal that might be made eral, if he were in his seat, that I sincerely to the government under the educational hope he will take the advice of Mr. appeal clause . It provided also, as sug- Blake, and recede from the unjustifiable gested by Sir John Macdonald, that any position of ignoring the appeal, which his opinion of the Supreme court may be organ has authoritatively declared he in- brought by way of appeal before the tended to take and which he has thus far privy council. And I must not omit to taken, and 1 trust if the matter goes to state that it expressly provides that the the Supreme court he will be represented opinion of the judges is to be only there, for I fully believe as Mr. Blake advisory. It does not and can- has pointed out that the only way to get not therefore enable the gov- a satisfactory solution is to have both ernment to escape responsibility. parties represented. Now when I remind ygu, Sir, that this And now I desire to point out to hon - Act as well as Mr. Blake's resolution on orable members that this resolution, mak- which it was based, received the unani- ing provision on the face of it, and in ac- mous support of the House of which Mr. cordance with the express declaration Dalton McCarthy was a member, and that of the mover, for this identical case of ours, presumedly they must have received his received the unanimous vote of the personal support, it seems strange that Commons. Mr. Dalton McCarthy, I only a few days ago he used these words have no doubt, was there, and our own in a letter which he wrote to a Toronto minister of public works was no doubt paper: "Public interest is centered more there too, and proudly cheered Mr. Blake on the novel and unexampled proceedings when he stood up and urged that prudent that are now pending before the privy disposition of the Manitoba school case. council at Ottawa, with a view, if it be Mr. Blake's advice could not be carried possible, to find a reasonable pretext to out that session by act of parliament as overturn the decision of the judicial com- the end of the session was then near at mittee of the privy council. * * If Sir hand. One speech only I may say was John Thompson's view is correct, that the % made in reply to Mr. Blake. It was Manitoba question is to be considered judi- made' by Sir John Macdonald, and it was cially, then no matter what conclusion the indeed an appreciative speech in which government adopt, there is complete free- he thanked Mr. Blake most warmly for dom from responsibility. The ministers his wise and timely counsel. There were cannot be called to account in parliament, however two points made by Sir John. even though the order-in-council as a re- The first was that in every case provision medial measure should direct the legisla- should be made for an appeal to the privy ture of the province to repeal its school council, so as to .get a decision and an acts for 1890, for a judge or judicial tri- opinion from the highest court in the bunal is not answerable for his or its bad land. The second point was that no law." Can it be possible that Mr. Mc- matter what the opinion of the court Carthy had forgotten the action of the might be, such opinion should only be ad- House in 1890 and 1891 as well visory, and that the government should be as his own approval thereof ? I now responsible for their action, so that there wish to give you a quotation from an in- should be no withdrawing of the question terview granted by my hon. friend, the from executive responsibility. When we attorney-general, to a "Tribune" repre- hear so much said to-day about the Fed- sentative on the SOth of last November. eral government shirking their responsi- "It is said," remarked the attorney-general bility in the matter, by placing it on the "that the Dominion government assumes —

the power to act as some kind of a court of the people of of appeal in this matter, and to reeeive and against the will of the people of the petitions, and to hear arguments." And Upper Province." It is entirely correct presently he added, "We deny the right to say that it was by the votes of the of the Dominion government to interfere French representatives of Lower Canada, in this matter in any way whatever. On and against the votes of the representa- no ground of principle can such interfer- tives of Upper Canada, that the separate ference be justified. Further, the Do- school system was finally settled in Upper minion government has no legal power to Canada in 1863, and so far I quite agree take such action. By the constitution with the speaker. Mr. McCarthy then the power lies wholly within the jurisdic- takes up the education clauses in the B. tion of the provincial government. The N. A. Act and continues: —"Search the privy council dealt with that very point. B. N. A. Act and you will see that it was To appeal from the privy council to the attempted to be fastened on you for all

Ottawa ministry would be the height of time by this organic law, the B. N . A. Act, absurdity." as a part of the bargain made at the time Surely my honorable friend the attorn- of Confederation. That and similar ey-general can not have been wholly enactments have we to thank for the present state of affairs that is unaware that three years ago the Com- ; the result mons by a unanimous vote, in which one of Lord Durham's well meant labors. of his own colleagues took part, gave a He brought us together, thinking that the mandate to the government to deal with English majority would ultimately govern; this very question, by referring it to the he brought us together with the belief courts for advice, and that again two that he was doing the greatest possible years ago the parliament of Canada with benefit to us and to them. We came to- equal unanimity, supported by the same gether; we assembled in a common par- colleague, had in an act provided the ma- liament, but by the skilful direction of chinery for carrying out that mandate. the French Canadian vote, and the desire I now turn to another and a different for power among the English and conse- division phase of the question. I suppose it will quent among them, the French - not be denied that there is a general Canadians were ultimately able to place opinion among the protestant majority their feet on our necks and impose laws in this province that the educational on us contrary to our will, and we came clauses in the Confederation ,act, protect- out of the partnership taking the smaller ing or purporting to protect' the Catholic share of the assets." Possibly this lan- minority, were incorporated in the consti- guage may be open to two meanings, but tution at the instance of Roman Catholics. I understand the statement that the sep- arate school " I think I am safe in saying that it is the system was attempted to be " universal impression in protestant circles fastened on us by the B. N. A. Act, to that the Romish hierarchy, or Sir George mean that it was something sought to be Cartier, managed shrewdly to protect fastened on Protestants by Catholics. Catholic interests by the insertion of those That may be Mr. Dalton McCarthy's clauses. And how often have we heard opinion, but I want to say if that be his it remarked that if the public men of the meaning that there is not a word of truth protestant faith had not failed in their in it; and to prove that I am right let me duty, through pandering to the Catholic give you in a few words the situation of vote, these clauses would never have the Protestant minority of Quebec before appeared in the constitution. Just to the Union. Quebec, of course as you all give you an idea that I am speaking cor- know, is filled chiefly by a French Cana- rectly as to what the general impression dian population. The immense majority is, I will quote from Mr. Dalton McCarthy. are French Roman Catholics. They had Addressing a great protestant meeting in in the province two systems of schools as

Ottawa in December of 1889, he said : they had in this province before 1890. "What have we to boast of as the out- In Ontario the Catholics had their separ- come of the act of Union ? A separate ate schools; in Quebec the Protestant min- school system imposed on the people of ority had their dissentient schools. When free Ontario by their own votes ? No. the proposition for Confederation came up Search the records and you will find that the Protestant minority in Quebec were the act for the settlement of the separate exceedingly afraid that they would be school question was imposed on the peo- put under the control of the Catholic ma- ple of the Upper Province by the vote jority of that province in respect to edu- 13 cation. They made two demands as a scheme of Confederation, as it would condition of union, first, that there would undoubtedly exercise very considerable be a provision in the constitution where- influence upon the discussion of the Con- by any rights that they had at the Union federation scheme, and probably in the in respect to their schools should never last resort from several members from be taken away from them, so that the Lower Canada." On a subsequent date legislature of Quebec should have no pow- Mr. Holton said: er to interfere with these rights, and sec- "The English Protestants of Lower ond, that before they entered the Union Canada desire to know what is to be hool law should be amended so as to done in the matter of education be- remove certain objections then made to it fore the final voice of the people of by the Protestant minority. They de- this country is pronounced on the ques- manded that the school law should be im- tion of Confederation." To this state- proved so as to satisfy them as a minority ment Sir John Macdonald replied : before the Union, in order that in the fu- ''There was a good deal of apprehension ture they would have the law as amended in Lower Canada on the part of the min- guaranteed to them. One of the changes ority there as to the possible effect of they demanded, as I recollect the history Confederation on their rights on the sub- of it, was that they should have a separ- ject of education and it was the intention ate board of education. Now it is fair to of the government, if parliament approved state that the position of the Protestant the scheme of Confederation, to lay before minority in Quebec was in my opinion the House this session certain amend- different altogether from that of the ments to the school law to operate as a Catholic minority in Ontario In the lat- sort of guarantee against any infringe- ter the system of the majority was non- ment by the majority of the rights of the sectarian, in Quebec it was a Catholic sys- minority in this matter. * * * tem. It was natural therefore that the Before Confederation is adopted the Protestant minority in Quebec should be government would bring down a measure anxious about their position in the Union. to amend the school law of Lower Canada I now propose to show the demand made protecting the rights of the minority." by that minority for protection against Mr. Holton was not satisfied with that the provincial legislature. for a few days afterwards he returned to Mr. L. H. Holton was then, as you it again and said, "I would like to ask the will remember, one of the leading Pro- Hon. Minister of Finance as to the course testants representing Lower Canada. to be pursued in reference to the Lower Speaking in the Confederation debate Canacla school law which was promised to on behalf of that minority at an early be introduced this session. " To this the period in the debate he said: "'Another like reply was made as before, but still question which he had proposed to put Mr. Holton was not satisfied and repeat- had reference to the educational system edly thereafter he brought up the ques- of Lower Canada. The honorable gen- tion again, indicating the intq^se interest tleman (Sir John Macdonald) must be felt in the situation by the Protestants of aware that this was a question on which Lower Canada. there was a great deal of feeling in Hon. Mr. Sanborn, another Protes- this section of the province amongst tant representative from Lower Canada, the English-speaking, or the Protestant gave expression— to the same feeling as class of the population. Among ~that follows : " The English, who were a class there was no phase or feature ol fourth of the population, and who, by those threatened changes which excited so habit and tradition, had their own views much alarm as this very question of of public policy, were left entirely with- education Well the minister of finance out guarantee other than the good feel- had said that the government would ings and tolerant spirit of the French. bring down amendments to the school Was this safe ?" laws of Lower Canada, which they pro- In the hope of disquieting these fears posed enacting into law before a change of the Protestant minority from his of government should take place, and province, Mr. D'Arcy McGee, an —Irish which would become a permanent settle- Catholic from Lower Canada said : " I ment of that question. The question he have no doubt whatever, with a good desired to put was whether they intended deal of moderation and a proper degree to submit these amendments before they of firmness, all that the Protestant mi asked the House to pass finally upon the nority in Lower Canada can require by 14 way of security to their educational sys- not lie at the discretion of the mayority tem will be cheerfully granted to them in this respect, and for this reason I a by this House." ready to extend to my Protestant fellow- The Hon. Geo. Brown, the noted citizens in Lower Canada, of British origin, champion of national schools in Upper the fullest justice in all things, and I wish Canada, had given special attention to to see their interests as a minority guar- the education clauses, and he recognised anteed and protected in every scheme i fully the deep anxiety felt in Lower which may be adopted." Canada on the question. Referring to Hon. Mr. Laframboise, a French Cat! the satisfaction that existed in Upper olic from Lower Canada, expressed himsel

Canada with the existing arrangements in this candid way • "There is one certain as to education, he declared that "it fact and that is that the Protestants of was not so as regards Lower Canada, Lower Canada have said to the govern- for there were matters of which the Brit- ment 'Pass a measure which shall guaran- ish population have long complained and tee to us the stability and protection of some amendments to the existing school our educational system and of our reli- act were required to secure them equal gious institutions and we will support justice. Well when this point was raised your scheme ofConfederation; unless you gentlemen of all parties in Lower Canada do we will never support you, because at once expressed themselves prepared to we do not wish to place ourselves at the treat it in a frank and concialiatory man- mercy of a local legislature three fourths ner with a view to removing any injustice of the members of which will be Catho- that might be shown to exist; and on this lics.' I admit that in doirfg this they understanding the educational clause was have only done their duty; for who can adopted by the Confederation." say after all what ten years may bring Sir. E. P. Tache, then Prime Minister, in forth." further reply to the fears expressed by Mr. Sir John Rose, one of the most pro- Sanborn, said: "Mr Sanborn gave expres- minent representatives of the Lower Can- sion to the fear that the Protestant Eng- adian minority, expreseed his sense of the lish element of Lower Canada would be keen feeling that prevailed among his peo- in danger if this measure should pass. ple in these terms: "It is a very grave He said as much as this, that in the legis- and anxious question for us to consider, lature of Lower Canada acts might be especially the minority in Lower Canada, passed which would deprive educational how far our mutual rights and interests institutions there of their rights, and even are respected and guarded." Again Sir of their property. But if the lower John Rose returns to the subject in these branch of the legislature (that is the words, referring to the Protestant minor- provincial one) were insensate enough and ity; "I know you must satisfy them that wicked enough to commit some flagrant their interests for all time to come are act of injustice against the English Pro- safe, that the interests of the minority are testant potion of the community they hedged round with such safeguards that would be checked by the general—that those who come after us will feel that they is the federal— government." are protected in all they hold dear." Hon. Mr. Dorion, the chief of the And again he says; "Looking at the Rouge party of Quebec, referred to scheme then, from the stand-point of an the demand made by the Protestants English Protestant in Lower Canada let of Lower Canada, for protection, and ex- me see whether the interests of those of pressed his sympathy with them in these my own race and religion in that section terms: "There is at this moment a move- are safely and properly guarded. There ment on the part of the British Protes- are certain points upon which they fee) tants in Lower Canada to have some pro- the greatest interest, and with regard tc tection and guarantee for their educational which it is but proper that thej should establishments in this province put into be assured that there are sufficient safe- the scheme of Confederation, should it be guards provided for their preservation.' adopted; and far from finding fault with And once more Sir John Rose declares them, I respect them more for their ener- "I believe this is the first time almost in gy in seeking protection for their separate the history of Lower Canada that there interests. I think it but just that the has been any excitement or movement oi Protestant minority should be protected agitation on the part of the English Pro- in its rights in everything that was dear testant population of Lower Canada ii to it as a distinct nationality, and should reference to the common school question " —

15

hear, hear)- It is the first time in the be conceded to Roman Catholics in the history of the country that there has been provinces where they were in the minority. any serious apprehension aroused amongst Thus it was that the settlement was aimed bhem regarding the elementary education at in a manner satisfactory to all classes. of their children. * * T would ask my hon- The House will now see how utterly far orable friend, the attorney-general East, from the truth is the oft repeated and whether the system of education which is generally accepted statement that the iin force in Lower Canada at the time of educational clauses of the Confederation 'the proclamation is to remain and be the act, protecting the rights of the minority J in respect to education, was a concession If system of education for all time to come; to Catholic a and that whatever rights are given Roman demands. j bo either of the religious sections I now desire to refer to another circum- I mall continue to be guaranteed to them." stance connected with this same matter J To this last question of Sir —Jonn Rose, a circumstance even more striking than : Sir ( "It is the [ Jeorge Cartier answered that I have referred to —and I dare say (intention the government that in that i- of some of my honorable friends on the will law there will be a provision that government benches had not heard of it. in q [secure the Protestant minority Lower The debate I have quoted from took Canada such management and control over place in the old parliament of Canada in their schools as will satisfy them." Col. 1865, some time before the Confederation Haultain, a militant— Protestant from act was adopted. That parliament was Upper Canada, said : "An opposition to then discussing the Confederation resolu-

I his scheme has been very decidedly ex- tions that had been agreed on between the pressed by a ceitain section of the Protes- two Canadian provinces and the Maritime tant minority in Lower Canada. I am provinces. The provision with respect to aware from personal intercourse with education, embodied in these resolutions, many gentlemen belonging to that section protected only those rights of the minor- of the community that they do feel a very ity which existed at the time of the union, strong aversion to this scheme because, as but there was not one word in them in- they say, it will place them at the mercy dicative of an intention to preserve under of the French-Canadians. * * And I Confederation any rights that they might must say, for my own part that, I do think acquire afterwards, although such a the Protestant minority have some provision was afterwards put in the act grounds for this fear. * * * I speak How did the change come to be made ? what I know when I say there is a feeling Here's an interesting bit of history that I uf distrust on the part of a great many of want to tell you, and you have only to the Protestants of Lower Canada. study the debates on the question to I have troubled honorable members, find out the truth of it. I read Mr. Speaker, with somewhat long extracts you the promise made by the from the Confederate debate. I wished government in 1865, that before that to impress on the House that throughout session was over they would amend the that discussion, from the beginning to the legislation so as to satisfy the Protestant end of it, there was hardly a question minority. There was a calamity befell raised about the rights that were to be the government however, that prevented protected by these educational clauses, this being done. There was a defeat of except for the Protestants of Lower Can- the Union scheme in New Brunswick, e) I ida. Hardly one word. The only sug- and the legislature had suddenly to pro- I geetion that was made on behalf of Roni- rogue without passing the amended law. jUn Catholics was, that if, in answer to the The Protestant members from Lower Can- Jdemands of the Protestants of Lower ada protested, but Sir George Cartier, Sir iOanada these safeguards were given, it A. T. Gait and the rest ofthe leaders said, would only be fair that the Catholics of "We promise you we will pass the law Id r Canada should have the same pro- next session," and they had in fact anoth- vied ion accorded them. And the broad er session before the Confederation Act land fair and tolerant spirit of Protestants was passed. Well the parliament met in like George Gait, Mackenzie, 1866 bill jj Brown and and a was introduced to amend the IMdcdougall and others prompted them to law as desired by the Protestant minority. provide as a matter of course that the What became of it? Somebody in the I3ame rights which were conceded by House got up and moved that if that pri- JCatholics to the Protestant minority, at vilege be given to the Lower Canadian the urgent demand of the latter, should Protestants a like privilege ought to be tl —

16 granted to the Catholics in Upper Canada. might be created by the legislature of Que The Protestant majority of Upper Canada bee, after the Union. To effect this pur- kicked against this, and the government pose it was necessary to modify, or rather seeing that they would be defeated on it to widen, the educational clauses. When either withdrew the bill, or it was defeated therefore the government completed their on coming to a vote. They failed at all draft Confederation Act they inserted in it events to carry out the promise given the this further provision, that not only Protestants in Lower Canada. What was should the rights of the minority at the done about it? It is worth while to recall time of the Union with respect to schools those interesting events in connection be perpetuated and never taken away with our position to-day. The govern- from them, but that if any legislation was ment were thus placed in a most awk- passed with regard to them after the ward position. The Protestant minority Union by any provincial legislature the of Quebec had positively refused to come rights created thereunder could never be into Confederation if they could not get taken away from them. their law amended, and they had been T have attempted to show you, Mr. told that they would never be asked to Speaker, and I trust I have offered suffi- come in until they got it, and unless it cient evidence to satisfy the House, that was guaranteed to them for all time to there has been a misapprehension, to come. The difficulty thus threatening the least, as to the cause of these clauses the Union was solved by Sir George Car- appearing in the Confederation Act for tier the great chief of the Catholic French- the protection of the minority as to edu- men representing Lower Canada. He cation. I hope I impress some of the hon, said to the Protestant minority of his pro- gentlemen present, at least, that these pro- vince in effect, "I ask you Protestant gen- visions were not, as some have thought, tlemen of Lower Canada to take my the work of either pope or a rch bishop, word for it, and I now give you but that they were placed in the statute my pledge, that when Confederation is with a view chiefly to protecting th( formed, and when Quebec has a parlia- Protestant minority in the maintenance ment of its own, one of its first acts will be of what they thought their legal and just to put upon its statute book the law that rights I want to know if it will ever be we could not get on our statute book here chargedjagain, in Manitoba at least, that to-day." That I say was the promise this was a scheme of the Roman Catholics. given by that French Catholic chief, and And yet I read a few minutes ago from a the Protestants of Lower Canada took his speech of Dalton McCarthy's delivered in word for it. They believed that the pro- 1889 in which he said it was. I have mise of a public man, solemnly given on a another speech of his here delivered in solemn occasion and respecting a solemn February 1890, in which he uses the fol- claim of a section of the people, would be lowing language to the same effect : solemnly respected, and it was respected. il l do hope that before long the delega- I don't know whether it was in the first or tion from the province of Ontario will the second session of the Quebec legislature call on this House for its aid to blot out that it was done, but that promise was the separate school clause from the British carried out in good faith. Sir George North America Act, which limits and fet- Cartier was himself elected to that legis ters the people of that province. That lature. and I believe he sought election clause was carried by a majority of French with the one purpose of being in a posi- Canadians, and was imposed upon the tion to carry out his solemn pledge, and people of Ontario against their will." * so he got the promised law passed. The * * " and I am sorry to differ from my educational clauses adopted in 1865 pro- hon. leader on that question. He tells vided as I have said only for the safe- us—and I never feel more humiliated than guarding of rights the minority had at the when I hear him speak on that subject time of the Union. Sir George Cartier that he participated in imposing that therefore found himself in this position. separate school system upon us." If Mr. He could not, before the establishment McCarthy was speaking of the imposition of the Union, give the Protestants of Que- of the school system on Upper Canada in bec what he had promised to give them, the first place, he was speaking the truth, he had to go and get the legislature of but if he applied it to the B.N . A. Act his Quebec to give it. But the Confederation statement was utterly without foundation. scheme as then settled did not provide for As a matter of fact Lower Canadians protecting or safeguarding rights that were more strongly decided—I mean their .

17 leading men were—against Confederation, votes of the twelve Protestant representa than Upper Canadians were. It was the tives of Lower Canada, and against their Upper Canadian members indeed that car- own wishes, these constituencies could ried Confederation, and many of the lead- not, by the Legislature of Quebec, be in- ing Frenchmen of Quebec were against it, terfered with. Here was a most remark- so that it could not be true, as suggested able instance of protection to a minority, by Mr. Dalton McCarthy, that these limi- and that provision, like the provisions in tations in the B. N . A. Act were imposed Mr. Gladstone's Home Rule Bill, was in- upon us at the dictation of Lower Canada. tended for the protection of the Protestant I wish now to read another interesting minority. bit of the history of that time, not relat- But there was placed in the Constitu- ing to the School Question, but shewing tion, at the demand of the Prostestants of the spirit of the concessions demanded by, Lower Canada, a still more remarkable and provided for the, Protestant minority provision than even that, for the protec- of Quebec. We have heard something tion of the minority, to which I must not about the representation of the French fail to draw attention. Power was being minority of this Province in our Legisla- given by the Union Act to the Provincial ture having been at one time excessive in Legislatures with regard to passing laws proportion to their numbers. As a mat- with respect to immigration, and the Pro- ter of fact, it arose from the circumstance testants of Quebec saw that the Legisla- that the French speaking settlers were ture of that Province, under French and mainly in the older districts, which had Catholic influence, might promote immi- an undue number of members, and the gration in such a way as to encourage im- charge of over representation applied equ- migration of their own classes only. And al, y, therefore, to the Protestant popula- so it was that, at the demand of the Pro- tion in the same districts At all events testant minority of Lower Canada, there the evil, so far as it was an evil, was reme- was a provision put in the Confederation died in 1888. And it will be remembered Act, whereby, while the local legislatures that, amongst the French speaking minor- may pass laws with respect to immigration, ity, there was a natural feeling of alarm, at the Dominion Government is also given their loss of influence in the Legislature, power to legislate with respect to the same which would follow from the application subject. And it is provided that the local of the remedy. Well, I wish to remind law falls to the ground, so far as it con- the House that a like feeling of alarm flicts with any law of the Dominion, with stirred the minds of the Protestant minor- respect to that subject. In other words, ity in Lower Canada, when they were in- the laws of the province, with respect to vited to enter the Union. The Protestant immigration, are subject to revision by population, outside of Montreal, was the Federal Parliament The discussions mainly settled in the district known as the of the time shew that, as I have said, this Eastern Townships. At that time they was done at the instance of the Protestants controlled twelve seats. Under the terms of Quebec, and Parliament yielded to their of Union the Provincial Legislatures were demand empowered to re-arrange the provincial But I must return to the subject before constituencies, as regards the Provincial the House, having made this digression Legislatures. The Protestant minority of just to shew that even in other matters Quebec were afraid that the Legislature of than the question of education, very spe that Province might cut and carve the cial and peculiar safeguards, for the pro- constituencies therein, so as to weaken the tection -of the minority, were provided in Protestant representation, and they want- the Constitution, and that mainly for the ed to be protected by the Confederation protection of Protestants. Coming once Act, so that the Catholic majority could more to the question of education, I de- not, by any act of redistribution, interfere sire to draw attention for a moment to with their representation. And they got the terms of the educational clauses in the that protection. It is in the statute book B. N. A. Act limiting the powers of local to-day— in the Act of Union. It was pro legislatures to pass laws with respect to vided in the Constitution that, in respect that subject. of these twelve counties, the Legislature of The language of these sub-sections Quebec should have no power whatever to plainly shows that their operation is not make any alteration, u»less the bill was limited to any particular part of the supported by a majority of the twelve Dominion as then created. The clause members themselves. Th.it is, against the as to the right of appeal is such that it ; ' 18 may be applicable to all the provinces. It will be extended to the different religious was a settlement of a question that had persuasions, * * and that all the fran- disturbed the statesmen of old Canada for chises which have subsisted, * * shall be many years, and it was thought best that duly continued and liberally conferred. there should be no limitation as to its In declaring the desire and determination application, except this, that it should of Her Majesty's Cabinet, you may safely apply to in use the terms only provinces which there of the ancient formula ; were separate schools legally existing at 'right shall be done in all cases '." the union, or wherein they should be I am not going to assert that there is legally established afterwards. Sir Oliver any promise there as to schools, but I Mowat tells his people in Ontario that simply point out the spirit of the prom- that settlement of tHis question was an ises that were made to the old French essential element of confederation, so Half-breed settlers, through their arch- essential that without putting these pro- bishop, by the Queen's representative, that visions in the Act, confederation would their religious persuasions would be re- not be to-day an accomplished fact, and spected, and that the franchises which that we would not have in Manitoba or > subsisted would be continued to them. in any of the provinces of the Dominion, Then there was a Royal proclamation a Provincial Legislature. issued by the Governor-General in which

I have endeavoured to show the House, he said : "By Her Majesty's authority I Mr. Speaker, and I think honorable do therefore assure you that on the union gentlemen will admit that I have con- witl). Canada, all your civil and religious clusively proved, that the educational rights and privileges will be respected, clauses of the original Act of the Union your property assured to you, and that were not placed there as a concession to your country will be governed, as in the the Catholics. Did the parallel clauses in past, under British laws, and in the spirit . ' the Manitoba Act involve such a concess- f British j ustice ion ? I am free to sav that the Roman A delegation was properly appointed Catholic members of Parliament demand- as representing the people of this Pro- ed their insertion in the Manitoba Act. vince, through the intervention of Sir But were they after all an improper Donald Smith, who came here as the concession ? It was but the extension to envoy of the Government, in order that Manitoba of a part of the essential basis such delegation might proceed to Ottawa of Union, of provisions that, as expressed to settle terms of union. That delega- in the Act of Union, were not limited to tion went to Ottawa ; they were officially any part of the Dominion. If there was received as such, and negotiations were no impropriety in incorporating such carried on and completed with them as provisions in the B. N. A Act there such delegates on the part of the people could scarcely have been any serious here, by the Federal Government, and the impropriety in putting the like provisions result was the Manitoba Act. I am not in the Manitoba Act. going to say anything with regard to the In the case of Manitoba, however, there Bill of Rights, said to have been presented were special reasons why that concession by the delegates, demanding the main- was made to the minority, and I wish to tenance of Separate Schools, except that refer to some of them for a moment. It 1 think Archbishop Tache has failed to will be remembered by honorable gentle- establish his contention with regard to men that at that time there was a rebel- that. I say, however, that the delegation lion in this province, the settlers rising in went to Ottawa duly accredited as repre- arms because they were not satisfied with senting the settlers ; they there discussed having this union imposed upon them' the whole matter, and they arrived at a and it became a matter of deepest solici- conclusion which was embodied in the Act, tude and anxiety to the Dominion, as As it did not give them any greater rights well as to the Imperial authorities, to put than the Catholic minority of Ontario down that rebellion and satisfy the had, there was nothing unreasonable in it. people. The Governor-General of Canada I say that upon the faith of the statements requested Archbishop Tache to come all made and of the legislation itself the the way from Rome to assist in putting settlers had a perfect right to expect that down the troubles, and he wrote a letter their institution were guaranteed to them. of instructions to the Bishop, dated 16th I now desire to draw attention to the February, 1870 in which he says "The fact, that all this difficulty which threatens people may rely that respect and attention us, because of the duty cast upon the Fed- 19 ral Powers to interfere with provincial direction of education subject only to the legislation respecting education, was clear- approval or disaporoval of the "General ly foreseen and foreshadowed. There was Parliament is not calculated to create at the time of the Con federation debates,in wide-spread dissatisfaction and tend to the old Canadian Parliament, a very prom- foster and create jealousy and strife inent man, a Roman Catholic of Ontario, between the various religious bodies in who was opposed to Confederation, and that section of the province." And he who clearly pointed out the troubles that closed in these words : "I desire to have would arise on a contest between the two the expression of the opinion of the mem- governments on that question. Indeed he bers of this House whether it is not better protested most earnestly against any pro- to let the Catholics of Upper Canada and vision which would withdraw the subject the Protestants of Lower Canada protect of education from the control of ' the pro- themselves, or rather trust for protection vincial majority, and with the clearest fore- to the sense of justice of their fellow sight, he predicted the very circumstances subjects." in to-day. I that have arisen Manitoba Thus did Sandfield Macdonald want to late Sandfield Macdonald, refer to the John entrust the rights and interests of his co- for some years premier of Canada, and religionists, although in the minorityffo afterwardsa] premier of Ontario.— In a the majority, while he clearly pointed peech in that debate he said : " I wish out the danger of Federal interference. to bear in mind that the on. members Who do you think, of all men in the lexperience that we have had in this coun- House, replied to him ? It was no less a try proves, that a denial of the right of the man than Alexander Mackenzie, who, majority to legislate on any given matter although he must have seen that the * * has always led to grave consequences. trouble predicted was a very possible one, constitutional restriction in By making a yet felt that with all its disadvantages the respect to the schools of the minority, we scheme was the best that was available. are sowing the seeds from which will in " In his reply Mr. Mackenzie said : Hav- the end arise a serious conflict, unless the ing already voted for the whole of these Constitution be amended. The minority resolutions, I cannot have any hesitation will be quite safe on a question relating to in voting against the amendment. I can their faith and their education in a colony only tell him (Mr. Sandfield Macdonald) the sway of the British under Crown, but that I, having struggled as much as any if you expressly withdraw that question one to prevent legislation tending to from the control of the majority, the break up our common school system, and rights of the minority will not be safe in having found my efforts utterly ineffec- either section of the province, if you dis- tual, do not see that our position would trust the action of the majority. It is be any worse if the resolutions are car- our duty, Sir, to see that a question that ried into law. I formerly stated that I affects us so dearly as the education of our thought the separate school system would * * * shall children, not be withdrawn not prove very disastrous if it went no from the management of the Local Legis- further. 1 do not now think they will latme. We ought not to deprive them of do much harm if they remain in the a power which they will want to exercise, same position as at present, and therefore, just because they are deprived of it, and though I am against the separate school provoke a desire on their part to altei the system, I am willing to accept this Con- * * system. The minority is safe against federation, even though it perpetuates a undue encroachment on its rights, and I small number of separate schools." am willing to trust to the sense of justice of Mr. Mackenzie went on to point out the majority in Upper Canada to preserve that the abolition of separate schools had the religious and educational liberties of been found impossible, and that, with all the Roman Catholics of Upper Canada." his objection to them, he preferred to put Mr. Macdonald proceeded to place his up with the system, especially after some views formally on record by moving, by years' experience had proved they were way of amendment, when the House was less injurious than he had anticipated. going into Committees on the Confederal And he preferred to risk the consequences " tion resolutions that it be an instruction so strikingly pourtrayedby Sandfield Mac- to the said Committee to consider whether donald rather than have the old question any constitutional restriction which shall re-opened. The words of Sandfiel.l Mac- exclude from the Local Legislature of donald are pregnant with meaning to us Upper Canada the entire control and here to-day, and so are those of Mac- .

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kenzie, especially in the light of his action that of my own knowledge, but I knew in the New Brunswick case. The lesson from the newspaper reports, and from in- is one of toleration on the part of the formation brought to the Winnipeg Liber- majority for the prejudices of the minor- Is, that strong speeches were being made ity, and the avoidance in that way of any by Mr. Burke and his friends in the Riding, justification for an appeal to the Federal calling upon half-breeds and French Cana- power with its unfortunate consequences, dians to vote against the Liberal candidate, by the exercise of that toleration in the on the ground that Liberals would likely Local Legislature, as was so earnestly pass laws interfering with their institu- " urged in the case of New Brunswick. tions . It was said, are you going to put I now desire to speak of a delicate mat- into power people, who, when they get ter, which may be somewhat distasteful into office, will legislate away your to some who hear me, but I am bound to schools and your language," and the elec- tell the truth, even if it may offend some tors were appealed to to oppose Mr. Fran- I make the grave charge that this school cis for that reason. This became practi- legislation was put upon the statute book cally the leading question of that campaign, of this province in defiance of the most and the contest was a crucial one. Should I l^tolemn pledges of the Liberal party. In the Liberals win, it was plain, in view of ijBpiuary of 1688, an event occurred which the losses sustained by the Government, that they must resign. So that the \ brought the Liberals into power in this success of the Liberal candidate / province. My hon. friends had for years meant that the been engaged in an effort to defeat the party would at once attain power,while the Norquay Government, in which I helped election of Mr. Burke would almost cer- tainly them all in my power, because we felt that ha\ e ensured the continuance of the it would be to the advantage of the pro- Liberals in opposition till this day. It vince to have a change. The crisis came became necessary for the party leaders, when the St. Francois Xavier election therefore, to meet this appeal to the reli- took place at the time I have mentioned. gious and race feelings of the French and Dr. Harrison was at that time premier of half-breed voters, the pledge given by Mr. the province, and he chose as his provincial Francis appearing to be insufficient to secretary Mr. Joseph Burke, who, though satisfy them. Now the Liberals had a de- fined he bears an Irish name, is really a French platform, and their views were well Canadian. He was living among his understood. Personally I knew well what own people in the district of St. Francv>is our policy was. Perhaps no one, apart Xavier, and had been elected as a member from Mr. Greenway and Mr. Martin, was of this House in 1886 by acclamation. On in a better position to know fully our at- accepting office he went back for re-elec- titude On these questions. There was no tion. It was proposed that we should doubt about that attitude. There is no oppose him, though for myself I thought doubt we were denouncing the abuses of the it was useless. Mr. F. H. Francis, an Norquay Government with regard to English speaking Presbyterian, and a son the French printing, the large amount of in-law of the late Rev. Dr. Black, the money expended, and Liberals were de- great pioneer Presbyterian missionary of termined, if the party came into power, this country, was asked to take the field that they would do away with those against Mr. Burke in this French constitu- abuses; but the idea of interfering with ency. He could not possibly be elected, un- rights guaranteed, or supposed to have less he got a large proportion of the votes been guaranteed, by the Constitution, had never been suggested. On the contrary, of the French population . Without this, I say, his election was an absolute impos- it had frequently been pointed out on the sibility. Now I state, on information and public platform by Liberal leaders that belief, that Mr. Francis, when consulted by these institutions were protected, and that leading members of the Liberal party, and our remedy was in correcting abuses and asked to accept the nomination, said he not in abolishing the institutions. It was that the arising would not accept unless empowered to 1 romised expenses from give the electors a pledge that if the Lib- the use of the French language would be erals got into office they would not inter- cut down and the grant to education in- fere with the institutions cf the French, creased. No one had ever asked or sug- gested that we should go a step further. their language or their school laws . I am informed that he was authorised to make When the question about the Liberal pol- that promise that he went to the electors icy became so prominent and urgent in and gave them the pledge. I did not know St. Francois Xavier, I was consulted with —.

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others about it, and Mr. Martin was asked Martin had quite forgotten his pledge, to go out and assist the candidate. I was because the circumstances had in fact, so told that he went out and attended a far as I can now recall, gone out of my meeting, and I was told of promises he own memory for the time, and until I had publicly made, wiiich were, to my saw or heard it mentioned afterwards, knowledge, in accord with what was in- when the circumstances came clearly back tended he should make. I went with him to my mind. Now I know that Mr. Green- myself to a second meeting. It was a large way, the Premier, was a part y to the giving gathering mainly composed of French and of that promise, and I am sorry he is not in half breed Catholics. The same charges his place so that I might say so in his were made by Burke as to what the Liber- presence, because he is the man that I hold als would do if in office. The same ap- responsible for the whole trouble. As peals were made to his countrymen and far as I was concerned, when it was pro- co-religionists to defeat Mr. Francis for posed to introduce the present law, had I that reason. Mr. Martin, in a powerful been of the opinion that we ought, not- speech, denounced the statements of Burke withstanding that promise, to pass the and his friends as false, fle told the meet- legislation of 1890, sooner than be person- ing that it had never been the policy of ally a party to it I would rather have quit Liberals to interfere with the language or this House forever. It so happened, institutions of the French Catholic popu- however, that without even remembering lation, and he appealed to them to trust for the time the circumstance of the pro- the Liberals, and to support their candi- mise, and altogether irrespective of it, the date, At that time I was President of the moment the announcement was made in Provincial Association of Liberals, and August 1889 about the proposed enact- Mr. Martin referred to my presence at ment, I formed the most decided opinion, the meeting, and said I could put him an opinion which I then communicated right if he was wrong. He went further, to many of my friends, that we were and not only said Liberals had no idea of about to make a great mistake. This was interfering with these institutions, but he the opinion I formed on the question on gave a positive pledge, in the name of the its own merits, having regard to the Liberal party, that they would not do so history of the question in the east, with I have always thought that the movement which I was somewhat familiar. It was to establish the present school law, abol my judgment, even then, that we ought ishing all Catholic schools, against the not to enact the proposed law even on its

strong protest of the minority was, under merits and apart from any pledges ; and the circumstances, and in the face of that it was my opinion, and I so expressed promise, a gross wrong. Personally I made myself most openly, that we ought to no promise, but I felt as much bound by adopt a system consistent with the spirit the pledge given as if I had given it of the settlement of 1865 at confedera- myself. tion, a system such as they have in Now I wish to say this of Mr. Joseph Ontario, where it has given so much satis- Martin, that I have understood it is faction. claimed that he had forgotten that pro- I wish here to refer to a statement made mise of his in 1888 when he decided and by my honorable friend the Attorney- promised in 1889 to introduce the new General, during the debate of 1890, to the School law. I wish to say also that per- effect that even if the pledge was given sonally I quite believe that he did actually by Mr. Martin for the party, it did not forget the promise. He is possessed of bind the party^ and that we were free to too true and generous a nature to make disregard it. First of all, I say that I such a promise, and afterwards deliberate- cannot subscribe to that proposition. I ly to go back on it, unless his having say that the pledge was given in the name promised had escaped his memory. Those of the liberal party, for a party purpose, who know him best know that he is a and that it did bind them under the cir- most impulsive man—and impetuous cumstances in which it was made. With- and that he often acts hastily on impulse out that promise the paity could not have and not of deliberation ; and I can carried that election, and by that election imagine him, forgetful of the deliberate alone they attained to power. That promise at St. Francis Xavier, making power was obtained on the faith of that the promise for the abolition of Separate solemn pledge, and it was the Liberal Schools under such an impulse. I can party, as a party, that benefitted thereby, the more readily understand that Mr. and that accepted power and took advan- .

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tage, for that purpose, of the votes given told have not a separate school. There on the faith thereof. In the second place are over 80,000 Catholic children in that even if it were felt that the promise did province and the immense majority of not bind Liberals to support separate them, over 50,000 are going to the public schools at all times, I say that they were schools, while it is only the minority of bound at all events, before making the the Catholic children that go to the change, to put the minority, whose sup- separate schools. And why ? The only port was so obtained, back into the posi- reason is that they are not being deprived tion where they were when we took of them by the majority. There is advantage of their support. The Liberal something of a contest I believe going on party should have resigned office and res- between the Catholic laity and the Catho- tored the minority to the vantage ground lic priesthood with regard to this school they held at the time the pledges were question, the laity in some measure pre- given. I thiDk we made a mistake and ferring the public schools and the priest- that we ought to retrace our steps and do hood insisting on the use of the separate what is right in this matter schools. In Ontario Protestants and I think, Sir, that we can do this with- Catholics are living in harmony. There out going back to the old laws. I think is no ill-feeling between them, and there that all we have to do, in order to secure is no attempt made by the majority to a fair school system for our province, is to deprive the minority of what the latter adopt that which has been in operation in deem their rights. Catholic parents, see- the good old Province of Ontario for the ing that no attempt is made to deprive past 30 years. Do we want a better sys- them of their rights, are not called upon tem of education than that they have in to be constantly asserting these rights and struggling to maintain them. can that province to-day ? They have a You public school system there, and it is a imagine yourself, Mr. Speaker, claiming public system all through. Every school to have a right to the enjoyment of some in the land is under government control privilege, which perhaps you are not availing yourself of. As long as no one and inspection . Where there is a settle- ment of Catholics large enough to have denies your right ycu would, perhaps, not a school of their own they are allowed to go as far as the door of this chamber to use it, but let person try to take it have their own religious exercises in it, any right to but that school is practically as much un- away from you or to deny your der the control of the Government, in so it, and you will fight for it like a bulldog.

is . Speaker, far as secular education is concerned, as This human nature, Mr and it is have to recognize the public school. And if in some res- an element that we in these questions. Sir Oliver pects the system there falls short we might Let Mowat himself so or so wicked, as to improve on it here. There is no such a show weak, thing as Catholic schools in Ontario, in the start an agitation to deprive the Roman sense that Catholic school existed in this Catholic minority in Ontario of what province under the old system. The they deem their rights, even though they Catholic schools that existed here then, do not largely use them, and what willbe and that exist here now, so far as they the result? Why in less than six months exist against the law, are Catholic schools many of the Catholic parents who are pure and simple—church schools. But now sending their children to the public in Ontario, where Roman Catholic have a schools will be sending them to the settlement sufficiently large to have a separate schools Look at New Bruns- school, they are allowed to have one, but wick. Will any one say that the Govern- only on coming within the law and under ment there have been able, even with the law, like the public schools, so as to their strict law, to abolish separate be under state control Every Catholic schools ? On the contrary, in St. John pro- in the Province, not in a separate district, Fredericton and other places in that and not joining the separate school, pays vince, you will find Catholic teachers, in his taxes to the public schcol, and only their garb, teaching the tenets of their the Catholic who joins that separate school church in schools that are called public schools, that receive public aid just pays his rates to it, and need not pay taxes and schools. Mills to the public schools. And what is the like the public David too, the result of long observation, result in Ontario ? There are 700 muni- as cipalities in the Province with more or says the public school system of On- less of a mixed population, I fancy, in tario is the best he has ever known them all, and yet over 500 of them, [ am for a mixed community. He was for 23

many years a school teacher, and for the minority will make an advance. I say many years afterwards an inspector, and to my honorable friends in the Govern- after all that experience he practically ment that in all earnestness and sincerity I says that he would not seek a better sys- appeal to them to accent this proposition. tem than the one now in vogue in Ontario. I nave no quarrel with my honorable Some of the newspapers sound the friends. I certainly think we have acted praises of the school system of the United badly to the minority and dont think any States. I have a great admiration for it. gentleman will say I have not from the There are no separate schools established eginning been sincerely and honestly of by law there and yet what is the result ? that opinion. I say to my honorable Althought the Catholic parents in all cases friends that if they will attempt to settle pay their taxes to the public schools, the this matter in some such way as I suggest, majority of them in many of the States and if they will make one or two other send theL children to their own parish changes of policy so as to come back to schools, and pay for these besides. And true Liberal lines—If they will take away what is the practical result on the educa- from the liberals of this province the tion of the Catholic children ? In the first stigma of having done such a wrong to place the majority of them are not getting the minority and of having departed in the advantage of a secular primary these other questions from true Liberal education under the control of the views—I will be content to say "good government at all. In Ontario on the bye " to my honorable friends on the other hand all the catholic children, even Opposition side, amongst whom I have the minority attending the Separate sat, and I will cross to the government Schools, receive an education directly side and give to my honorable friends under State control and management. there a generous support. Or I will be There is scarcely a leading public man or ready if it should better suit my honor- educationist in Ontario to-day, after a able friends, to* resign my seat in the thirty years experience of it, who does not House, content to have had a hand in admit that the system there is fairly bringing about a settlement of this most satisfactory. Even the Equal Rights As- delicate question, and in aiding to promote sociation gave it a general approval. All liberal views generally Let me warn they demanded was a slight amendment the honorable Minister of Public Works of the law which turned out to be provid- that the day is surely coming, and perhaps ed for already. I think we might well it is not so tar distant, when his leader be pleased if we had such a system here. and mine, the Hon. Wilfrid Laurier, may And I earnestly ask this House to consider be called on to lead the Government of whether we should not now accept it, and the Dominion. I warn him that, in such thus put an end, as I believe we would, to an event, Mr. Laurier will meet this same all this charge of injustice and this feeling question as a stumbling block in his way, of discontent. And we would avoid the as it is a serious one in the wav of the very serious, perhaps most dangerous, present Minister. Were Sir John Thomp- agitation and disquietude that may arise son to be defeated, as indeed he may be, should the Federal powers attempt, even on this question I do not believe for a if justly, to impose remedial legislation moment that Mr. Laurier would accept upon us. It is with a most sincere hope office with the responsibility- of that that such a result may be obtained that I weight upon him under such circum- have brought the question up. stances. The honorable member for St. Boniface Once more I appeal to the House and (Mr. Prendergast) is going to second my to the Government, and ask them to resolution just to enable me to bring it consider' this question seriously and before the House. I do not understand solemnly. If they have an earnest desire that he assents to its terms, nor would I to have this question settled now, and expect him to do so, at all events unless once for all, I ask them not at once to the Government offered terms such as I decide against my resolution, but that propose, as a measure of settlement. It they should at least hold their judgment seems to me that my resolution suggests and defer the discussion, to enable them a scheme in which the minority can see a to give the question further careful and solution to the whole difficulty. If the dispassionate consideration. I urge this Government will meet the Roman Catho- course for the one reason that I see in the lics on that line I would sincerely hope that adoption of the resolution, a possible way the Catholics would be willing to meet of satisfactorily settling the whole question them on that line. If the Government forever. With that view Mr. Speaker I

i efuse, of course it cannot be expected that beg to move the adoption of the resolution. (» /, /£.(?, U

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1 A fine ofnve cents will be charged for each day overdue.

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