MIAMI UNIVERSITY The Graduate School

Certificate for Approving the Dissertation

We hereby approve the Dissertation

of

Emily K. Reese

Candidate for the Degree:

Doctor of Philosophy

______Chair Larry M. Leitner, Ph.D.

______Reader Ann Fuehrer, Ph.D.

______Reader Aaron Luebbe, Ph.D.

______Graduate School Representative Elise Radina, Ph.D. ABSTRACT

VOICES, RELATIONSHIPS, AND MEANING MAKING

by Emily K. Reese

In this study, I explored the experiences of four women who hear voices and are not part of a clinical population. Each woman had a much different voice hearing experience from the other women in terms of duration, regularity, consistency, and sensory modality. I interviewed these women about the voices they have heard, their understanding of the voices, their interpersonal relationships, and their general mood and functioning. A robust meaning making system and healthy interpersonal relationships were associated with lower distress about the voices, and with lower distress in daily life in general. In addition, connection with a validational community, and to the integral universe (Leitner, 2010), also were associated with lower distress. I present several implications for clinical practice, elaboration of Experiential Personal Construct Psychotherapy theory, and future research. In particular, I challenge the notion that hearing voices is an automatic indicator of “mental illness.” Instead, I argue that relationships and meaning making are far better indicators of psychological health.

VOICES, RELATIONSHIPS, AND MEANING MAKING

A Dissertation

Submitted to the Faculty of

Miami University in partial

fulfillment of the requirements

for the degree of

Doctor of Philosophy

Department of Psychology

by

Emily K. Reese

Miami University

Oxford, Ohio

2014

Dissertation Chair: Dr. Larry M. Leitner

Table of Contents Introduction…………………………………………………………………………………………1 Terminology and Definitions ……………………………………….………………………1 Experiential Personal Construct Psychology ……………………….………………………3 General EPCP overview………….……………………………………………3 EPCP and trauma……..……….………………………………………………5 EPCP and relationships.………….……………………………………………7 Voices……………………… ……………………………………….………………………8 Hearing voices is a meaningful response to extreme distress……………....….9 Hearing voices is not necessarily tied to pathology ………..……………...…13 The Present Study.………… ……………………………………….…………………….15 Method……………………………………………………………………………………………16 Participants…….…………………………………………………………………………..16 Interviews……….…..……………………………………………………………………..17 My Approach to the Interviews...…...……………………………………………………..17 Data Analysis…….……………….………………………………………………………..18 Results………………………………………………………………………………….…………19 Alice……………...………………………………………………………………………...19 Alice’s voice hearing experience……………………………………………..19 Alice’s relationships…………………………………………………………..23 What we can learn from Alice………………………………………………..25 Barbara..……..…...………………………………………………………………………...25 Barbara’s voice hearing experience…………………………………………..26 Barbara’s relationships………………………………………………………..29 What we can learn from Barbara……………………………………………...32 Candace..….……...………………………………………………………………………...32 Candace’s voice hearing experience………………………………………….33 Candace’s relationships……………………………………………………….39 What we can learn from Candace……………………………………………..41 Diane..…….……...………………………………………………………………………...42 Diane’s voice hearing experience……………………………………………..43 Diane’s relationships…………………………………………………………..49 What we can learn from Diane………………………………………………...52 General Themes...…..……………………………………………………………………...53 Summary...……...…..……………………………………………………………………...55 Discussion…………………………………………………………………………………………57 Clinical Applications……..……………………………………………………………….57 Elaboration of EPCP Theory..…………………………………………………………….61 Limitations and Additional Future Research …………………………………………….65 Importance of Findings………..………………………………………………………….69 My Views……..……….……....………………………………………………………….70 References…………..…………………………………….………………………………………74 Appendix A—Phone Script ………………………………………………………………………78 Appendix B—Consent Form..…………………………….………………………………………80 Appendix C—Sample Interview Questions/Prompts …….………...………….…………………81 Appendix D—Participant Interviews ……………………..………………………………………82

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Acknowledgments

I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to the following people: To Dawn Strongin, who taught me to wonder about the nature of “reality.” To my participants, who allowed me to bear witness to their stories. I am truly honored that you chose to share with me, and hope that I have done justice to your experiences. To all of the many friends who have supported me in so many ways throughout this process: Kat, Cat, Aki, Jeffrey, Julie, Pam, Linda, Karen, Dan, my family, and countless others. Finally, to Larry Leitner, who taught me to speak truth to power. If I can be half the psychologist that you are, I will count it a blessing. Again, my thanks to all of you. Words are woefully insufficient to express my gratitude.

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Voices, Relationships, and Meaning Making Many researchers have studied voice hearing, or “hallucinations.” However, the majority of researchers have focused on consumers of mental health services. Comparatively few researchers have explored the experiences of persons who hear voices and are not clients of the mental health system. Therefore, we know little about the ways voices play a role in the lives of people in a non-clinical population, despite the fact that, according to demographic data, voices are far more common than most people are aware. In this study, I have explored the experiences of four women in the general population who hear voices. I also have shown how we can better understand voices by considering them in the context of a person’s relationships and meaning making process. Before I explain the findings more thoroughly, I comment briefly on the terms and definitions used throughout the study. I then briefly describe relevant aspects of Experiential Personal Construct Psychology (EPCP), which is the theoretical lens I used to explore the experience of voices. EPCP can be a particularly useful theory to ground such an inquiry because it is open to nonjudgmental interpretations of various human experiences. Next, I describe two major conceptualizations of voice hearing that are relevant to the present study. Finally, I describe more concretely what I have investigated in this study. Terminology and Definitions It is challenging to make meaningful comparisons within the literature regarding voice hearing. This is due, in large part, to researchers’ use of misleading and/or judgmental terms, as well as their lack of clarity around definitions for various terms. For example, using a vague term such as “schizophrenia” provides the illusion of communicating meaningful information, when in reality, many clinicians disagree on who qualifies for this diagnosis. Without the ability to make comparisons between studies, we cannot draw conclusions with confidence. Therefore, to maximize clarity for the present study, I here discuss the terms I have used in this inquiry as well as the way I have defined them. Many authors conflate the terms “psychosis,” “schizophrenia,” “hallucinations,” and “hearing voices” such that they often are used interchangeably. Treating these terms as synonyms is unhelpful at best and highly misleading at worst. During the course of the present inquiry, I offered to share some literature with one of the participants that would provide perspectives on voice hearing different from the predominant psychiatric paradigm. The

1 participant eagerly expressed her interest in receiving this information, and I was excited to share this literature with her, recalling that I had quite a few articles to pass along to her which would not discuss voices in pathologizing terms. I experienced quite a shock when I actually went to look through the literature I had reviewed. The articles used such terms as “hallucination” (Barrett & Etheridge, 1992), “psychotic phenomena” (Jackson & Fulford, 1997), “psychotic experiences” (Johns & van Os, 2001; Jones, Guy, & Ormrod, 2003), “psychotic symptoms” (Jones et al., 2003), and more. These are articles which, I had thought when I first read them, presented the voice hearing experience in a relatively positive, non-judgmental light. It was not until I looked at them through the lens of anticipating how they might sound to a person actually having a voice hearing experience that I was able to experience how hurtful and pejorative these articles may sound. Therefore, I will use the term “hearing voices” throughout this paper, as it seems to be the least value-laden term of the set, and will use the other terms only when necessary to preserve specific wording from relevant literature or from my participants. I now must explain how I define “hearing voices” in order to provide context for my inquiry and findings. This is a challenging task considering the range of different experiences people have with voices. “Hallucination” is perhaps the most common term in the extant literature on hearing voices—although only about half of the authors in my review include any definition of hallucination in their writing on the subject. Among those who do, most offer a description similar to that in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM- 5), describing hallucinations as “perception-like experiences that occur without an external stimulus” (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 87). The DSM authors continue, “[Hallucinations] are vivid and clear, with the full force and impact of normal perceptions, and not under voluntary control” (APA, 2013, p. 87). Some sources, however, provide a broader definition of hallucinations, such as the following: A hallucination is experienced as real, and it may be perceived as originating from outside a person’s body (as with the usual sensory experiences of sight and sound), or it may be felt to come from within a person’s own body. For example, a person may report “hearing voices,” but the voices may be experienced as coming from within the head rather than from outside it. (Noll, 2007, p. 205) In the case of a voice being heard from within the body instead of from outside, defining the experience becomes more complex. When a sound originates outside the self, the relevant

2 sensory organ is unquestionably the ear. However, one could argue that a sound occurring within the head has no relevant sensory organ; there is no correlate for this experience in persons who do not hear these kinds of voices. For the purpose of this inquiry, my definition for hearing voices is broad, and I used it with the intention of remaining open to a range of voice hearing experiences. I have defined hearing voices as receipt of information in the form of words (not concepts or vague notions, but specific words) at discrete identifiable moments (not a vague accumulation of knowledge over time) that does not originate from the conscious cognition of the hearer. It also is important to note my definition for psychopathology. If I am to comment on what makes a particular experience pathological (or not), I need to be clear about what I mean by pathology. The APA Dictionary of Psychology defines psychopathology as “patterns of behavior or thought processes that are abnormal or maladaptive” (American Psychological Association, 2007, p. 755). I, however, define psychopathology from its Greek roots, psyche (soul) and pathos (suffering). Thus, I understand human distress in terms of suffering, not disorder. I will elaborate further in the following EPCP section. Experiential Personal Construct Psychology In the present study, I used EPCP as the foundation of my inquiry while also extending the theory to account for a range of voice hearing experiences. Because EPCP is crucial to the design of my inquiry, and also is affected by the implications, the reader needs to have a basic understanding of the theory. In this section, I provide a brief overview of general EPCP theory, while also including some specific terms from within the theory that are particularly relevant to hearing voices. General EPCP overview. EPCP is a constructivist psychotherapy theory that elaborates on George Kelly’s sociality and choice corollaries. The sociality corollary states, “To the extent that one person construes the construction process of another, he [or she] may play a role in a social process involving the other person” (Kelly, 1955, p. 95). According to the sociality corollary, intimate and validating interpersonal contact is essential for living a rich and meaningful life (Kelly, 1955). Our most intimate relationships (termed ROLE relationships in the EPCP literature) involve our ability to construe not only another person’s constructs (personal meanings about the world), but particularly the other person’s construction process (the process by which the person makes meaning of the world) (Epting, Prichard, Leitner, &

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Dunnett, 1996; Kelly, 1955). In other words, “it is like the difference between seeing eye to eye with another and seeing from where the other is standing” (Faidley, 1993, pp. 13-14). However, within ROLE relationships, separateness also is vital. It would be impossible to construe another person’s construal process without first being aware that the other person is separate from oneself. Thus, true ROLE relationships incorporate an optimal blend of closeness and separateness. Although ROLE relationships can be the source of our greatest joys, they also involve the potential for profound invalidation (Epting et al., 1996; Leitner, 1988). The more intimate the relationship, the greater access the other has to my most central ways of meaning making. This makes me vulnerable to the possibility that the other could invalidate aspects of my core self. Core invalidation requires me to choose between revising my most central meanings and revising the relationship, either of which would be terrifying. This choice, according to EPCP theory, is the most central human dilemma: We all must choose between becoming intimately connected with others and accepting the ever-present risk of devastating invalidation, or retreating from connection and remaining safe, but having an empty and meaningless life. Kelly (1955) describes the idea of constructive alternativism, in which he emphasizes that the universe is open to an infinite number of constructions: There are always some alternative constructions available to choose among in dealing with the world. No one needs to paint himself [or herself] into a corner; no one needs to be completely hemmed in by circumstances; no one needs to be the victim of his [or her] biography. (p. 15) According to Kelly, because the universe is open to an infinite number of constructions, two persons may choose highly disparate construals of very similar circumstances. In other words, humans are not merely passive recipients of life experience; rather, humans play an active role in constructing their own reality (Epting et al., 1996). We have limitless options for making sense of the world around us. Kelly further elaborates on constructive alternativism in his choice corollary, which states, “A person chooses for himself [or herself] that alternative in a dichotomized construct through which he [or she] anticipates the greater possibility for extension and definition of his [or her] system” (Kelly, 1955, p. 65). In other words, we, as human beings, must make choices from among the infinite alternatives available to us, and we must take responsibility for those

4 choices. This does not mean we necessarily have favorable options to choose from, but acknowledging choice can be greatly empowering (Epting et al., 1996). The choice corollary is a pivotal component of EPCP in that it places great value on the strategies people employ when faced with invalidation. People do not merely select strategies at random; rather, they select the best options available to them, the alternatives which will best allow for the growth and development of their meaning making system. It therefore makes no sense, from an EPCP perspective, to label manifestations of psychological distress as “symptoms,” or to consider them “pathological” or “maladaptive.” To the contrary, these manifestations are helpful to people, perhaps even ensuring their survival. Out of the infinite constructions available to people, they play an active role in choosing the constructions that define their meaning making process. Therefore, when defining a concept such as psychopathology, the notion of human suffering is paramount. By recognizing the suffering in the person’s life, we can validate both the helpfulness and the harmfulness of various manifestations of distress. Using judgmental terms such as “malfunction” and “disorder” validates only the ways that “symptoms” are harmful, ignoring the ways that they are adaptive, and thus ignoring the conditions that make the “symptoms” necessary in the first place. EPCP and trauma. Most EPCP theorists have focused on work with severely distressed psychotherapy clients. As a result, in the extant EPCP literature, authors have explored voice hearing only in the context of extensive relational trauma. Thus far, there has been no discussion of the possibility that some voices may not be related to trauma. I would propose that, for some people, voices are trauma-related, while for others, voices occur in the absence of trauma. However, before I discuss this proposal more fully, I first provide a more thorough explanation of how trauma and voices have been conceptualized thus far in the EPCP literature. Within EPCP theory, trauma is defined as an event so horrifying that it is beyond the person’s ability to construe it (Leitner, 1999). Childhood physical abuse, for example, is beyond a child’s ability to understand and can result in a temporary shutdown of the child’s meaning making system; that is, the child suspends the traumatic event. A suspended trauma remains at a low level of awareness for the person, as the person cannot integrate the event into their existing construal process. Because the child cannot make sense of what has happened, the child puts the event aside mentally and emotionally in an attempt to keep it separate from the rest of the child’s life. With severe and/or repeated traumas, a child is more likely to experience structural

5 disruptions. Structural disruptions are a freezing of the person’s core construal process that significantly interferes with that person’s ability to participate in ROLE relationships (Leitner, Faidley, & Celentana, 2000). Structural disruptions occur in early childhood, as early childhood is the time when people develop their core construal processes. One type of structural disruption, which is particularly applicable to trauma-related voice hearing, involves construal of self/other permanence (Leitner et al., 2000). Self/other permanence is related to the concept of object permanence; Leitner and colleagues (2000) refer to it as the ability to experience an enduring sense of self, and to experience others as enduring. A person who struggles with self permanence may feel as though he or she ceases to exist when becoming close to another. With other permanence struggles, a person may feel that important others disappear when outside of the person’s physical presence, making any kind of separation terrifying. Another type of structural disruption involves self/other constancy, in which the person has trouble maintaining a coherent and consistent awareness of self and/or others. They may struggle, for example, to feel love for another while feeling angry at the same time. In a similar way, they may struggle to experience another as loving when that other is expressing anger. It is almost as though they experience the other as a different person based on emotion changes. Leitner (2013) presents the possibility that voice hearing may be related to self/other permanence struggles, and is worth quoting at length: If neither I nor others have a permanence I can depend upon, my experiences and my sense of self may fracture into disconnected segments. Hallucinations can come and go randomly, not tightly connected to outside events. At one moment, the voice is present; at another, it is gone. At one moment, the voice is a male authority figure; at another a passive whining female; at another God. (p. 122) Here, Leitner describes how voices can be understood as disconnected aspects of the self, which are not permanent, enduring, and stabilizing, but fleeting and ever-changing. One also can see how a fractured self could be associated with constancy struggles, as the person’s experience is not coherent, but rapidly fluctuating. For example, a person might be feeling both love and anger, but have considerable difficulty holding these contrasting emotions simultaneously. A constancy struggle could result in experiencing these emotions, love and anger, as disembodied voices, separate from the self. Thus, the clinician can tell when voices are related to structural

6 disruptions by attending to the nature of the voices. Again, trauma-related voices are not permanent, enduring, and stabilizing; they are fleeting and ever-changing. To reiterate from earlier: although the concept of non-pathological voice-hearing has not been discussed specifically in the constructivist literature, the notion certainly is compatible with a constructivist perspective. Within the EPCP perspective, symptoms of distress are messages from us, to us, and about us (Leitner et al., 2000). And personal construct theory “is first and foremost a theory about values or fundamental principles for living one’s entire life”, not merely a theory intended to explain pathology (Epting et al., 1996, p. 309). Therefore, EPCP theorists clearly would hold that non-pathological experiences also are communications from us, to us, about us. For example, the happiness I experience when my friend gets a wonderful new job communicates to me how much I care for that person. The same can be true for voices that do not appear to be associated with any kind of distress. What is important is to look for the ways that the voice hearing is harmful or helpful. EPCP and relationships. I now will say a bit more about EPCP and relationships, outlining the basic ways of defining relational health within EPCP. In order to make the data analysis more comprehensible, I explain some of the theory-specific jargon within EPCP. This will clarify my discussion of my participants’ narratives later on as I comment on the health of their relationships. The ability to revere and be revered by others is central to optimal health (Leitner & Pfenninger, 1994). Leitner and colleagues (2000) describe various ways that a person can have suboptimal ROLE relating with others, including undispersed dependency, excessively dispersed dependency, and dependency avoidance. Undispersed dependency is relying on too few people to meet one’s interpersonal needs. Undispersed dependency is problematic in that the loss of one or two important others is catastrophic, and the person is left without any intimate connection. In addition, undispersed dependency can result in relational strain. A relationship becomes so vital to one’s existence that one cannot risk losing it. Thus, the person may do things to avoid conflict with the important other, making the relationship more superficial to avoid risk. Excessively dispersed dependency is allowing too many others to influence one’s core being. With excessively dispersed dependency, many others can confirm or disconfirm one’s most central meanings, leading to chaos in the person’s life. Dependency avoidance is retreating from ROLE

7 relating altogether, leaving the person safe from interpersonal injury, but resulting in an empty and meaningless life. In addition to interpersonal relationships, Leitner (2010) also explains the importance of transpersonal reverence and respect for the integral universe as important for optimal psychological health. The integral universe is a concept first introduced by Kelly (1955), who asserted that “all aspects of the universe are interconnected and related” (Leitner, 2010, p. 226). To illustrate the concept, Kelly (1955) gave the example of the action of his fingers typing in Ohio somehow being related to the price of yak milk in Tibet. Thus, every action has a series of complex repercussions throughout the world, and affects the world in ways we cannot anticipate. Leitner is clear that “actions” are not limited only to physical behaviors. Rather: My “actions” then consist of the things I am doing, the things I am thinking, the things I am feeling, and so on. Thus, my feelings about a person I care for, present as I write this chapter, are even now affecting the universe in ways that I cannot comprehend. In other words, the very nature of reality is affected by my thoughts, feelings, and actions. (Leitner, 2010, p. 227) Another aspect of the integral universe is that it is co-created and continuously unfolding over time (Leitner, 2010). We all are inextricably intertwined with each other and with the more- than-human world. In fact, the very act of coming to better understand the universe changes the universe, meaning that we never know it fully. The notion that every action has consequences for the integral universe has extensive implications for the responsibility of each person for their actions. Thus, actions such as ignoring the plight of the environment, refusing to protest worldwide human rights abuses, or allowing the poor in one’s community to go hungry, can be considered psychopathological. In sum, within the EPCP model, intimate relationships (with other people as well as the universe) have pivotal importance, as do the choices a person makes in order to seek connection as well as protect from invalidation. In addition, Leitner highlights the importance of early experiences, and how the person chooses to respond to them, as foundational to the rest of the person’s life. I return to these important themes later on. Voices There are two major psychological theories concerning voice hearing. According to one theory, the experience is closely related to some sort of psychological distress. From this theory,

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voices occur when something has gone “wrong.” In contrast, according to the other theory, hearing voices does not necessarily have to be related to any underlying problems. Proponents of both sides hold that the experience of hearing voices is personally relevant, as opposed to a random and meaningless experience. However, they disagree as to whether hearing voices is inevitably a symptom of distress. I now will describe these two perspectives in greater detail. Hearing voices is a meaningful response to extreme distress. Persons who experience trauma are far more likely to hear voices than persons who do not experience trauma (Freeman & Fowler, 2009; Leudar & Thomas, 2000; Lysaker, Buck, & LaRocco, 2007; Shevlin, Dorahy, & Adamson, 2007; Suri, 2011; Whitfield, Dube, Felitti, & Anda, 2005). While this fact by itself does not prove in any way that trauma causes voice-hearing, it certainly is potential evidence for a connection between the two. For example, Shevlin and colleagues (2007) provide evidence for this connection as they report results from the National Comorbidity Survey (1990-92), which included data from 5,877 non-clinical, community participants. The authors reported a significant association between auditory hallucinations and childhood trauma, including physical abuse, neglect, rape, and molestation (Shevlin et al, 2007). They also reported that the three types of trauma involving physical contact (physical abuse, rape, and molestation) were significantly correlated with increased prevalence of tactile hallucinations, while the experience of neglect did not have a significant relationship with tactile hallucinations (Shevlin et al., 2007). While not related directly to the experience of auditory hallucinations per se, we can interpret this finding to mean that hallucinations do not occur in a random fashion, consistent with the constructivist understanding that voices are meaningfully related to life experience. The researchers explain that hallucinatory experiences may mirror dissociated traumatic content, noting also the link that has been established in the literature between hallucinations and dissociative disorders (Shevlin et al, 2007; see also Longden, Madill, & Waterman, 2012). Freeman and Fowler (2009) found that persons with trauma histories were 4.8 times more likely to report verbal hallucinations. The authors note a strong association between severe childhood abuse and verbal hallucinations, even when controlling for age, sex, ethnicity, education level, socio-economic status, and intellectual functioning. Whitfield and colleagues (2005) had similar findings while investigating the link between adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and hallucinations. Categories for ACEs included emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, battered mother, household substance abuse, mental illness in household, parental

9 separation or divorce, and incarcerated household member. Using a survey of over 17,000 respondents, the researchers found a significant and graded relationship between ACEs and hallucinations. They reported that hallucinations were 1.2 to 2.5 times more likely when the person had experienced one ACE (Whitfield et al., 2005). The incidence of hallucinations increased with increased exposure to ACEs. Participants who had experienced seven or more ACEs were 4.7 times more likely to report auditory hallucinations in adulthood (Whitfield et al., 2005). Hammersley, Read, Woodall, and Dillon (2007) reported on their comprehensive review of the literature regarding the psychosis-trauma link. They noted that persons with psychosis are 15 times more likely to have experienced sexual abuse. They also noted the significant relationship between childhood abuse and psychosis, even while controlling for family history. In addition, the authors reported on a dose-response effect: those who suffered mild abuse were twice as likely to develop psychosis, while those who suffered severe abuse were 48 times as likely to develop psychosis. To further illustrate the link between childhood trauma and hearing voices, I will discuss a specific client whom Leitner (2006) has described in detail. This client, Jean, was bothered by hearing voices calling her “slut,” “bitch,” and “whore.” When Jean began to hear the voices during a therapy session in response to a discussion about her marriage, client and therapist were able to explore how angry the client was with herself as she contemplated leaving her husband. At the session following this discussion, Jean noted that the voices had abruptly ceased (Leitner, 2006). In this case, it is clear that Jean was understandably bothered by hearing these particular voices. However, these voices were functional in that they protected Jean from the difficult task of seriously contemplating leaving her husband. As Leitner (2007) put it, Jean “was so horrified by the implications of wanting to leave her husband that she resorted to hallucinations to keep her psychological integrity intact. (This allowed her to experience the desire, as well as condemn herself for having it.)” (pp. 39-40). The voices also protected Jean from connecting with others. To other people, the voices were frightening and incomprehensible. Thus, other people may have chosen to retreat from relating to Jean, keeping her safe from relational injury. On the other hand, the voices also were a subtle invitation to connect, particularly with the therapist. Specifically, if the therapist was willing and able to connect with Jean and attempt to understand

10 her experience, Jean could trust and connect deeply to the therapist. By Jean’s engaging in difficult exploration with her therapist, the voices no longer had any function and ceased to exist. Elsewhere, Leitner emphasizes the role of choice with regard to “psychotic” symptoms, noting that certain ways of approaching the client “result in the client becoming more able to choose to give up the most debilitating of symptoms” (Leitner & Celentana, 1997, p. 284). Leitner is not implying that people make conscious choices to experience “psychotic” symptoms. Rather, he refers to the process of first becoming aware of one’s choices, and then becoming empowered to choose differently. In Jean’s case, the voices were symbolic of her ambivalence toward her marriage. By understanding the function her voices were serving, she could develop an understanding as to how it was helpful for her to hear these voices, as well as how it was harmful to her. Understanding the voices as a choice facilitated the process of exploring other options for dealing with Jean’s emotions. When she then chose to discuss her ambivalence openly with her therapist, the voices ceased. We can further understand the construal system underlying a voice hearing experience with a glimpse at Jean’s later therapy work. As she made the decision to share her experiences of sexual abuse and torture from childhood with her therapist, the voices resumed. Again, client and therapist explored these experiences together. They grew to understand that, as horrific as the sexual experiences were, they also were the only times Jean experienced anything remotely close to being wanted or loved. Thus, part of Jean participated in the abuse as a desperate attempt to remain connected to others, while another part of her was repulsed at her participation (Leitner, 2006). The more context that Jean could courageously share with her therapist, the more the voices made sense. The voices did not occur at random times; neither were their messages random. Rather, the voices stated the way Jean felt about some aspects of herself. Toward the conclusion of therapy, Jean’s therapist mentioned that if the voices were to return, Jean could consider that she may be experiencing anxiety related to relationships (Leitner, 2009). From this constructivist approach, the voices themselves are not a meaningless symptom to be disposed of. Rather, the voices “can be better understood as communications from the self, to the self, about the self” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 188). The experience of the voices may not be pleasant, but by understanding the message the voices are trying to convey, the person receives helpful clues about their distress and how to intervene.

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In another case, a client, Jim, reported hearing voices as well as an extensive history of emotional distress. This history included the client having been sexually abused by a priest at the age of 11, the death of the client’s partner, and the client’s tumultuous relationship with his father. Correspondingly, the three main voices Jim heard were those of his priest, his partner, and his father (Suri, 2011). After a decade of hospitalization, medication, and 40 electroconvulsive therapies, the voices did not abate, but actually intensified. Jim finally was able to find recovery by means of a hearing voices self-help group. The group helped him to understand the purpose of the voices he heard. In Jim’s opinion, the voices forced him to face the horrors of his life that he was trying to avoid, but needed to work through (Suri, 2011). Again, Jim’s voices were meaningful messages, not “symptoms” to be dismissed. It is not clear from the provided account whether or not Jim’s voices ever subsided completely; however, the therapist does note that many clients state that “their voices help them in several ways and they would not necessarily want to get rid of them” (Suri, 2011, 162). Marius Romme, a Dutch psychiatrist well known for his work in the area of voice hearing, notes in one of his studies that 70% of his participants began hearing voices following an emotionally traumatic event (Romme & Escher, 1989). In fact, according to Amnesty International, 80% of persons who are tortured hallucinate during the experience (Romme & Escher, 1993). Although some participants experienced aggressive, negative voices, others experienced voices they found helpful for strengthening them and raising their self-esteem in a time of need (Romme & Escher, 1989). Certain demographic characteristics are related to the diagnosis of psychosis, of which hearing voices is often deemed a hallmark symptom. These demographic characteristics include single relationship status, unemployment, lower education level, low socioeconomic status, and urban residence (Cohen, 1993; Johns & van Os, 2001; McKenzie, Fearon, & Hutchinson, 2008). From these demographic data, one can infer that there are social and psychological roots to hearing voices and related experiences. We can see evidence of these social and psychological roots by noting the high rates of schizophrenia diagnosis among certain migrants, particularly first-generation migrants of African origin, and persons migrating from developing-to-developed nations (McKenzie et al., 2008). Some have proposed that racism may play a large role in the development of psychosis for migrants (McKenzie et al., 2008). Initially, researchers investigated the possibility that people who choose to emigrate are more likely to have a family

12 history of mental illness, but they found no evidence for this hypothesis (McKenzie et al., 2008). As with most psychosis research, it is difficult to draw conclusions specifically regarding voice- hearing. However, the extant research does demonstrate the plausibility of a link between hearing voices and traumatic experiences. Hearing voices is not necessarily tied to pathology. Some authors and researchers have suggested that the voice hearing experience can occur in the complete absence of any type of pathology or distress. In this section, I focus primarily on voice hearing in the general population. Some researchers argue that the experience of hearing voices occurs along a continuum in the general population (Bentall, 1990; Johns & van Os, 2001; Longden et al., 2012; Watkins, 2008). These researchers further assert that most persons who receive mental health services for hearing voices are at the extreme end of the continuum. According to the continuum notion, people who hear voices do not have discrete disorders which make them qualitatively different from the general population (Johns & van Os, 2001). While the precise nature of the proposed continuum has yet to be verified, whether normal, bimodal, or skewed, many researchers suggest that much evidence exists to support the existence of a continuum. For example, in one study of 375 college students, 71% reported having experienced at least one hallucinatory experience at some point in their lives (Posey & Losch, 1983). In another study, 30-40% of a college student sample reported hearing voices, with half of these indicating that the experience occurred once per month or more (Barrett & Etheridge, 1992). However, these researchers did not state whether or not the subjects found these experiences distressing, or whether these experiences could be correlated with level of functioning or future distress. In one NIMH study of 18,572 community residents, the prevalence of hallucinations that were not related to drugs or medical problems was 10% for men and 15% for women (Tien, 1991). The author also reported that most of the hallucinations caused no distress or functional impairment (Tien, 1991). Some suggest that voice hearing is more likely to occur for people who are open to them or have interest in spiritual matters (Jones et al., 2003). Watkins (2008) notes many specific, common circumstances in which mentally healthy people are known to hear voices (e.g., dreams, bereavement, extreme deprivation and isolation, call of vocation). In addition to dreams, it is common to hear voices when in a hypnagogic state, which occurs in the onset of sleep (Watkins, 2008). Although there are no external stimuli

13 present to account for voices heard during hypnagogic and dream experiences, such voices tend to be accepted as normal and not pathologized in the same way as voices heard while awake. Voice hearing also commonly occurs during times of bereavement. According to one study of 293 participants, nearly 50 percent had experienced some sort of hallucination during bereavement, with 13 percent hearing voices (Rees, 1975). In another study, approximately one- third of subjects reported seeing, hearing, or talking to a deceased spouse; subjects also reported finding these experiences helpful in their grief process (Grimby, 1993). Extreme isolation and deprivation have been closely tied to hearing voices (Watkins, 2008). This has been observed in persons deprived of food, water, or sleep for extended periods, whether self-imposed for spiritual or self-discipline purposes, or through external conditions (Watkins, 2008). In addition, voice hearing can occur for persons who experience prolonged isolation and immobilization, such as when recovering from severe burns or extensive surgery (Watkins, 2008). A number of persons experience the call to specific vocations as a voice, sometimes referred to as a daimon (Hillman, 1996). Although the concept of the daimon dates back to ancient Greece, the idea and the experience have continued into modernity (Hillman, 1996). With the diversity and abundance of these documented experiences in the general population, there is much support for the notion that hearing voices is not necessarily indicative of a psychological problem. For mental health practitioners and researchers to label voice- hearing as inherently pathological would be to call the majority of the human race mentally ill, particularly with respect to non-Western cultures (Abram 1996; Al-Issa, 1977; Bentall, 1990). Within shamanistic communities in Indonesia, for example, it is not uncommon for inhabitants to converse with animals (Abram, 1996). In fact, Abram reported that, after some months of living in the community, he also was able to converse with animals—an ability which eventually vanished upon his return to the United States (Abram, 1996). Consequently, our understanding of voice hearing within the mental health profession has implications not only for models of psychopathology, but also for cultural competence. By neglecting the commonplace nature of voice hearing in certain non-Western cultures, we run the risk of pathologizing on the basis of deviation from Western norms. Despite the brief, unelaborated comment that “hallucinations may be a normal part of religious experience in certain cultural contexts” (APA, 2013, p. 88), the DSM’s authors do little to normalize non-Western voice hearing.

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Consumers of mental health services tend to report a negative voice hearing experience, while those who are not mental health service consumers tended to report a positive voice hearing experience (Jones et al., 2003). From these data one could conclude that, for some people at least, hearing voices is not associated with pathology and therefore presents no mental health concerns in and of itself. One also could conclude that persons who hear voices and consider them positive lack “insight” about their condition. These persons may in fact be adversely affected by voice-hearing or other symptoms, yet may not reach the minimum threshold for involuntary treatment. It also is possible that badly-injured persons may avoid therapeutic exploration of their voices as a way of retreating from painful relational issues. It is clear that additional research is necessary before we are able to draw conclusions about the experience of those who hear voices in the general population. The Present Study In the present study, I have explored the experience of non-pathological voice hearing from an EPCP perspective. Specifically, I have attempted to help explain when voice hearing is not cause for clinical concern. Within EPCP theory, one could make this determination by considering two factors: relationships and meaning making. A person with unsatisfactory relationships and/or difficulty making meaning out of the voices is more likely to have a distressing voice hearing experience. The person with a distressing voice hearing experience then is more likely either to seek mental health services or to be mandated for “treatment.” Conversely, a person who has validating, fulfilling relationships as well as a way to construe the voices as relevant and meaningful is less likely to have a distressing voice hearing experience, and is unlikely to seek or be forced into services. I want to be clear that I did not do a formal comparison here between trauma-related voices and non-trauma-related voices. But what I did do is to explore the experiences of non-trauma-related voices to give us clues, and I do some informal comparison based on the literature and my own clinical experiences. In addition, I did show, with my participants’ stories, how someone might present who hears voices, but does not have psychosis. All the EPCP literature thus far makes a convincing case for how one can understand voices from someone who has been deeply injured and has structural disruptions; that much has been clearly established. What we have not discussed is how we can understand voices that are not related to structural disruptions. Without exploring the experience of people who have these

15 kinds of voices, we risk over-pathologizing. For example, a client comes to see me because she is struggling with longstanding depression, and I come to find out she hears voices as well. Without elaborating the theory, I may inappropriately assume more severe psychopathology or “psychosis” where perhaps none exists. I may invalidate the client by assuming all voices are a byproduct of trauma. In addition, we know from the literature on voices that many people in the general population do hear voices. We also know that many of these people have a positive experience. What we do not have are their stories. We have quantitative self-report data that many people who hear voices are doing well, but we have no additional information on how they are functioning, whether they have good interpersonal connections, or how they understand the voices. It is difficult, as a non-hearer of voices, to have a good sense of just how “normal” these people are without hearing their individual stories. At first, it may be challenging to understand how to tell the difference between someone who needs intervention and someone who does not. Based on the voices literature and EPCP theory, I postulate that meaning making and relationships are the most pivotal factors in understanding when voices are not pathological.

Method Participants I recruited four participants, all women, ranging in age from 35 to 70. I recruited all participants through word-of-mouth. It began with a conversation between me and a friend, who happened to know a few people who heard voices. My friend offered to contact some of these people to request permission for me to contact them to tell them about my study. In addition, some participants also offered to spread word of my study to people they knew. I was able to contact each participant by phone to explain the study and to answer any questions they had; see Appendix A to view the script I used to guide the phone conversation. With each participant, I explained that I was interested in understanding the experience of hearing voices with a non-clinical population. I further explained that “non-clinical” meant that they were not currently seeking or receiving mental health services based on hearing voices. I told each participant that I would be asking about her voice hearing and how she understands her voices, and that I also would be asking about important relationships and basic daily activities. In order to ensure that no one felt coerced to agree to an interview, I strongly emphasized my

16 concern for each participant’s comfort. To each one, I stated clearly that she had no obligation to participate, and also no obligation to continue to participate if she felt at all uncomfortable. None of the participants indicated any concerns. Interviews All participants provided informed consent (see Appendix B). Participants acknowledged prior to the interview that they were not currently receiving or seeking any mental health services related to voice hearing, such as psychotherapy or psychopharmaceuticals. The interviews with Alice, Barbara, and Candace were approximately one hour each, and the interview with Diane was approximately four hours. I met with each participant once in person. I met with participants in various settings based on participant location and preference. I conducted all interviews in private locations. To record the interviews for transcription, I used a digital audio recorder. In order to explore the participants’ experiences with voice hearing, I used a semi- structured interview (see Appendix C). I asked many questions about the voices themselves to gain a rich and thorough understanding of what each participant experienced. I inquired about the details of the voices, the person’s attitude toward voices, and the person’s meaning making regarding voices. In order to understand any potential connection between the person’s voice hearing and her relationships, I asked several questions about each participant’s interpersonal functioning. I also inquired about each participant’s daily functioning, occupational functioning, and general mood. In asking about these broader areas, I hoped to gain a more comprehensive understanding of how each participant was doing in general, so that I could draw comparisons between general functioning and voice hearing experiences. Although I used a list of questions to guide the interview (see Appendix C), I did not necessarily ask the questions verbatim. Rather, the questions are representative of the general areas I explored with participants, allowing the interview to flow in an organic way. I have included transcripts from each interview in Appendix D. My Approach to the Interviews My goals for each interview were not only to gain the information I needed to complete my inquiry, but also to convey my respect and reverence to each person who agreed to share her story with me. I will provide some detail about what I did to achieve these goals.

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In my initial phone call to each participant, I purposefully mentioned my understanding that hearing voices is a relatively common experience, and that people do hear voices in non- clinical populations. By stating these facts, I wanted to put my participants at ease that I was not looking to pathologize or judge their experiences. Having read extensively and conducted my own research on psychiatric stigma (see Reese, 2010), I was acutely aware of the ways that persons who hear voices often are treated unfairly. I was concerned that my participants might hesitate to share much with me, as they might wonder if I would pathologize them or label them as “mentally ill.” But even more than this, I was concerned that my participants might not feel respected. Therefore, I began by normalizing the experience of hearing voices. I used a phenomenological approach to guide the interviews. Therefore, to begin each interview, I wanted to convey my position of relative naïveté to the participant. As much as possible, I wanted to separate my assumptions from the participant’s experience. To achieve this, I began by talking with each participant about the most fitting term to use, whether “hearing voices” or something else. Although I certainly had some knowledge about hearing voices from readings and from working with a clinical population, I wanted to be clear that my knowledge did not make me an expert on the participant’s voice hearing. I continued this theme throughout each interview by carefully asking for many details about the participant’s perceptions and construal process. I tried to convey my attitude of openness and genuine curiosity to learn about each person’s voices, and how the voices weave into each person’s life. Toward the end of each interview, I strove to let each participant know how genuinely honored I felt to have the opportunity to talk with and learn from her. Although I did not compensate my participants for the interview in any material way, it is my hope that each felt some intrinsic benefit from the opportunity to share her story in a safe environment with someone who would revere and respect her. Data Analysis I transcribed the interviews personally, and the accounts are verbatim with the exception of identifying information, which I have removed or changed to protect participant privacy. I then read through each interview thoroughly, extracting quotes that seemed to have relevance to the domains I was exploring (participant’s meaning making of her voices, her important relationships, and any life distress she has experienced, voice-related or otherwise). To analyze these quotes, I organized them into a table to facilitate comparison within and between

18 participant narratives. During this process, additional domains emerged which seemed relevant to my participants’ experiences, including the integral universe and validational community (which I will describe in more detail later). Therefore, I incorporated these domains into the data analysis table. I thoroughly explored the potential connections between the domains for each participant’s narrative. In addition, I compared the participants’ stories to one another to identify any potential patterns between meaning making, distress, and relationships. In the interest of space and time, I did not include all relevant quotations within each domain. Instead, I selected representative quotes for inclusion in the manuscript in order to avoid redundancy and provide a concise account. Results Alice Alice is a 70 year old Euro-American woman living in the Midwest. She is divorced after a long marriage and has two highly educated adult children working in demanding professional fields. She also has five grandchildren, and makes reference to being highly involved in their lives. Alice has worked as a psychotherapist for approximately 35 years in various capacities, including private practice, a general medical setting, and an emergency room. Her highest education completed is a doctoral degree. Alice described herself as “happy” and “content most of the time.” She added that it is not common for her to have a depressed mood, although it does occur occasionally. She acknowledged experiencing some anxiety at times, but not “in a clinical sense.” She not only enjoys life, but emphasized feeling “blessed and honored to be here.” In fact, she indicated believing that she played an active role in choosing to enter her current human life, which I will explain shortly. (Please refer to Appendix D for a full transcript of my interview with Alice.) Alice’s voice hearing experience. According to Alice, the voices she hears come from “Spirit,” a genderless energy who she understands to be God. She also referred to Spirit as the “One Source.” Most of the time, Alice hears from Spirit in a general sense. However, she explained that sometimes she might hear from sources that are part of Spirit, but have a more specific valence to them. For example, Alice listed Jesus, Mary, non-human beings “from another planet,” and various angels as sources she has heard from in the past. Alice also clarified that she does not view these names in a literal way: “I don’t really think I’m talking to Jesus, but

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I am getting information from that energy, which is distinguishable.” In other words, Alice uses labels familiar to her from her upbringing within a Christian subculture context. When describing the church she attended during childhood, she emphasized that “there was no doctrine there, I was never burdened with doctrine,” indicating that literalism was never part of Alice’s general construal process. Alice described her voices as “internal,” and “a knowing more than anything, but I hear it clearly.” Alice used the word “hear” frequently as she described her experiences, but stressed that the “hearing” is not in the sense of an auditory experience originating from outside of herself. She “hears” in the sense that Spirit conveys specific words to her, not just feelings or impressions. Alice also used the word “loud,” but clarified with me that this is an indication of intensity rather than an auditory quality. As she explained her voices to me, Alice made it clear that hearing voices is only one component of her larger, overarching experience of participating in constant communication with Spirit. In explanation, she said to me, “I walk this experience, so there is no time when it’s not available. And so I am aware that that energy guides me without words also.” For example, Alice noted a time when a client cancelled an appointment with her. Alice pondered, “I wonder why that needs to be available? That’s the point. And then, of course I get the call, an emergency, and that’s where it fits.” In this way, Spirit guides her subtly, even without voices. The voices Alice hears provide her with information: “It’s either information that I’m being given without soliciting, or it’s information that comes as a result of a question.” Thus, there is nothing about Alice’s voice hearing experience that feels random or confusing. In fact, she stated quite clearly, “I always know right where it’s coming from.” There is no ambiguity as to the source or intention of the voices. They are predictable and consistent. Alice initially stated that her voices began when she was around 8 or 9 years of age, but later added that, “looking back, it had to have happened a lot sooner than that.” Because the voices are such an integrated part of Alice’s identity, it was difficult for her to pinpoint the moment they began. They are inextricably part of her life. Late in our interview, Alice described her recollection of having a conversation with God prior to her conception: I had a conversation before I came into the earth this time, I had, um, as much conversation as you have when you’re in Spirit, which is not verbal, but I spoke directly with God, telling God I had really no desire to come back again. That I’d been here,

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done that, and I didn’t want to come again, and God said, “Well, you don’t have to. Of course you don’t have to.” And [sigh], tricky. “And there’s going to be a specific time and place where I really need you and your specific gifts and energy in the earth.” Um, I said, “Okay! Alright!” I mean, how do you say no? At age eight or nine, Alice was able to “hear” a conversation that was occurring on the porch of the house while she was in the yard, too far away to “hear” in a conventional sense. Alice explained that, when she is able to “hear” in this fashion, the sound from a distant conversation “magnifies” to the level at which she can comprehend it. We did not discuss the nature of the conversation that Alice overheard at age eight or nine, but she explained that, any time the experience has occurred in her life, she has been able to receive useful information. One experience she did describe occurred when Alice was in high school while in an exchange program in Poland. Alice explained that she could comprehend a conversation occurring between the teacher and some students, despite the fact that she did not know the language: There were two different occasions when the teacher started talking to the other girls, and the teachers would ask in Polish, which I didn’t understand at all [laughs], would ask if they were calling me and asking me to go do things, and were they interested in me, were they practicing English, and both times, it came through as clear as a bell in English, I would have told you, but it was in Polish. I knew what the teacher said. I knew what the kids said. Alice went on to explain that, with this information from her teacher and classmates, she had an opportunity to recognize the role she played in various social situations. Once she realized the part she played in her relationships with her peers, she could act differently to change, and improve, those interactions: “I loved those insights into my part in it, because I could do something about that.” Alice described an additional experience, also in Poland, when she was 18 years old. She was waiting at a bus stop and a “drunk” approached her in an “amorous” way. Alice explained that she felt threatened and was unsure what to do, and then she heard a voice say, “Speak to him in English.” When she did so, the “drunk” appeared frightened and fled. Alice acknowledged that she is not exactly sure what frightened the man. Nonetheless, she acted on the guidance provided by the voice and received a favorable result.

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Throughout our interview, Alice emphasized the ways that she remains in firm control of her life and her voice hearing experience. There was no indication that Alice feels coerced by the voices, or that they act in intrusive ways. In fact, she stated quite plainly, “I don’t have a command hallucination experience.” (A command hallucination asks the hearer to take a specific action.) The voices may provide information and “offer help,” but Alice decides what to do with it. When I asked if the voices typically provide helpful information, Alice seemed surprised by the question and responded, “Oh, um, yes, umm, because those are the questions I ask.” It is as though it had not ever occurred to her that the voices would offer something unhelpful. Her response reflects a strong felt sense that she controls the experience; of course she gets good things because that is what she asks for. Even though there have been times when the voices have come unbidden, her overall experience has been one of being in charge. In fact, Alice reported feeling completely comfortable talking back to the voices when necessary. For instance, when they have encouraged her to do something before she was realistically able to accomplish it, she has reminded them that “working it in the earth is more difficult—that’s what I say to them all the time: ‘I’m in the earth, remember I’m in the earth!’” She has stood up for herself by being very direct about the practical limitations of humanness. Here, Alice told me how she spoke with the voices as they continued to remind her that she is needed in another city: Yeah, ‘I understand what you’re saying, I’m committed to the process, I agree that’s what happens next, and you’ve gotta back off. Because I have to raise the money to make the move and to be able to survive until the practice is up and running.’ So, you know, it’s like, ‘Back off!’” They do. They do. Alice explained that the voices are helpful in her profession as a psychotherapist by providing her with helpful insights. She reported times when “information comes out of me that I didn’t think to say.” Alice also named a specific angel, Nahum, who maintains a constant presence with her and is “instrumental” in the work that she does. According to Alice, the voices are “never threatening,” but rather, “always supportive and in my best interest,” even when Alice has not liked what the voices had to say. For example, if Alice were to “mishandle” a situation, “then Spirit’s likely to point out how I could have done that differently.” From Alice’s perspective, she is not being put down or derided when she is receiving feedback from Spirit, she is receiving caring advice. She added, “It’s about the

22 intention.” The voices want the best for Alice, and she knows their intention is to help her grow, not to induce shame. Although Alice was clear that she considers hearing voices to be “a positive experience all the way around,” she did not idealize her experience or portray it as perfect. I asked her whether, with all the guidance she receives, she ever has an opportunity to feel confusion or uncertainty. Alice readily admitted, “Oh, I am a basket case in the middle of all that frequently, because I’m not real crazy about the unknown.” In other words, Spirit will let Alice know what she needs to be doing for her greatest good, but, according to Alice, “The details are mine.” For example, Spirit had told Alice when it is time for her to change jobs or relocate her residence, but Alice has had to find a way to accomplish the move. Again, Alice emphasized that Spirit does not communicate with her in coercive or punitive ways. Rather, Sprit knows Alice’s best interest, so Spirit lets Alice know when it is time to move on. “Because my experience of Spirit is if they say it’s done and it’s time to go on to something else, then if you hang around, bad things begin to happen.” Alice has learned that the voices provide her with reliable information that makes sense to follow. She added, “Let’s say for instance that I had decided, ‘Well then I think I’ll move to New York City because I like the city, and I’d really like to be there.’ Well, it would fall apart.” It is not that Spirit makes it fall apart; rather, Spirit simply has foreknowledge that it would fall apart. Alice was clear that the “bad things” do not occur as a punishment for disobeying Spirit. Initially, as a child, Alice believed that the voice hearing experience was not unique to her. “You know, I started it early, but I didn’t know that. Because when you start really early with it, you think everybody does it.” Alice assumed that everyone was able to experience the voices as she did. Even today, Alice does not view herself as having privileged access to communication with Spirit. She stated clearly and definitively, “Everybody can do it. Everybody has access.” So there was no indication that her experience stems from a sense of being unique or special in a grandiose way. Alice’s relationships. Alice made brief reference to having grown up in “an alcoholic home,” but did not elaborate. She indicated that, although she does not currently identify as a Christian, her church community provided a very positive relational environment when she was a child, and she “just loved going there.” She added, “I got out of going to church by working in the nursery, which was my love,” indicating that her goal was connection with others, not church

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“dogma.” In fact, Alice described being “protected” from dogma, and explained how that protection has helped her to be open to more complex understandings of God and religion. Alice described several long-term friendships she has enjoyed “since high school,” demonstrating her ability to commit to and maintain relationships. She described herself as having “a lot of friends,” but specified that she has a smaller number of “really close friends.” This indicates healthy dispersed dependency, as well as the ability to modulate the intimacy of relationships. Alice made reference to “purposely isolating” over the last five years, but specified reasons for this, such as feeling a need to be more available to her grandchildren. It was clear that she had insight into her reasons for being more isolated from others than usual, and that she did not intend for the isolation to be permanent. In fact, Alice expressed a strong desire to expand her social network and anticipated relocating soon in order to accomplish this. In some ways, Alice has found that her voices are helpful for building relationships with others. In a very concrete way, the voices often have provided Alice with important social information. For example, by being able to comprehend the conversation between her Polish peers and teacher in high school, Alice had the opportunity to change how she interacted with her peers. The voice hearing also has been an experience that could be a point of connection with another who hears voices. Alice described several of her friends as “drawing energy” or “channeling Spirit,” commenting that “those are the people I hang with.” Alice at first indicated that “all of my friends are like this.” However, later she did mention having an old friend that does not share the experience. Alice indicated that this friend is “narrow in her religious views,” and therefore, “We just don’t talk about [the voices], we go to other things.” This demonstrates that the voices are not all-consuming. Alice can have other interests that do not revolve around this experience, and she can maintain friendships with those who do not share her views. I asked Alice specifically about when she first began to realize that everyone does not have her voice hearing experience. She considered the question and attempted to answer it, but eventually stated, “Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know the answer to the question, isn’t that interesting.” This seems indicative of the fact that Alice does not view herself as different or other compared to the rest of the world. She was obviously aware, at the time of our interview, that most others do not report hearing from Spirit, but her overall self-concept is one of connection, not of other-ness.

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Alice has a strong sense of interconnectedness with the world, a clear sign of health from an EPCP perspective. She spoke of interconnectedness quite explicitly as she said, “I mean, it’s kind of like the, the butterfly wings here affects Japan, you know, it’s that theory where we have no idea how impactful we are on a much grander scale.” Alice’s comment is reminiscent of Kelly’s (1955) notion that his action of typing in his home could have an effect on the price of yak milk in Tibet. In other words, the universe is so intricately interconnected that the smallest actions can have a ripple effect that we cannot fathom. Alice is open to the ebb-and-flow of the universe. She assumes order and purpose as opposed to random events. As an example, recall Alice’s question to herself about a cancelled appointment: “I wonder why that needs to be available?” She was open to the notion that there was meaningfulness in the cancellation on a universal level, and thus was ready later on when she received a phone call from someone who urgently needed the appointment time. What we can learn from Alice. My interpretation of the data from Alice’s interview is that healthy interpersonal relationships are related to low distress about voices. In Alice’s case, she has healthy relationships and experiences no distress about her voices. She has remained connected with others throughout her life, and has maintained many relationships over long periods of time. Alice also has had a broad range of relationships (Spirit, children, grandchildren, friends, colleagues, parents, faith community, students), and looks forward to expanding her relational community even further. In addition, the voices sometimes provide Alice with information on how to be even better connected to others. I also would infer, based on these data, that having a relevant meaning making system is related to low distress about voices. Alice is confident and consistent in her meaning making and does not find the voices distressing. She is positive about the origins and meaningfulness of her voices, expressing no doubt or confusion. Alice also makes meaning with others who have similar experiences. Sharing common meanings with a validational community goes a step beyond simply having an individual understanding of voices. Barbara Barbara is a 68 year old Euro-American woman living in the Midwest. Barbara joined a convent immediately after graduating high school and remained active in the convent community for over four decades, traveling and performing many diverse and demanding roles involving much transition and adaptation. Her various occupations included teaching in elementary,

25 middle, and high schools, completing a Master’s degree, working as a school principal, administrating a lay associate program for the convent community, and helping to run a convent community farm. A confluence of events, including Barbara learning energy work1 and her gradually shifting views on spirituality, led Barbara to leave the convent and go into “semi- retirement.” She currently works approximately ten hours per week doing energy work, and indicated that this provides her with an “adequate income.” Barbara described feeling satisfied with her life: “I look forward to every day. I enjoy life. My life feels really simple in a lot of ways, but I feel like every day is an adventure.” She added that the happiness she experiences is “very consistent.” (Please refer to Appendix D for a full transcript of my interview with Barbara.) Barbara’s voice hearing experience. Barbara referred to her experience as “talking to my spirit guides.” She primarily receives yes or no answers in response to questions she asks. Occasionally, she will receive other pertinent information. When I asked if she hears the voices through her ears, Barbara responded, “No, I, I would call it, I hear it in my mind’s eye. I know that sounds like seeing it, ‘cause—and some people see it, but I actually hear it in that way.” She denied that the voices have any auditory qualities such as gender or pitch, adding, “I would call it as much a knowing as anything.” Words and messages come across, but not by way of physical hearing. Barbara mentioned speaking with Jesus, Saint Francis, Mother Teresa, Archangel Michael, and human beings who have “crossed over.” She added, “Jesus is divine, but so am I, so are you. We’re all divine.” In Barbara’s conceptualization, Jesus and other spirit guides are not in elevated hierarchical positions; they simply have different roles than living humans. Barbara explained her understanding that spirit guides actually are more like energies than discrete beings per se: All the angelic energy is created to help us and, I don’t believe that angelic energy—at least as I understand it—is, um, it’s all one big unit, pretty much, and we get what we need from that unit, and sometimes it looks like a kind of traditional Michael the Archangel, but, you know, it’s more an energy than a…than a being. Here, Barbara demonstrates her ability to understand the fact that she has a perspective. She is not rigid in her beliefs and attempting to dictate universal truths. Rather, she is explaining how

1 Energy work (also called energy therapy or energy healing, depending on context) is a general term that can refer to a number of specific techniques in which a practitioner uses focused intention to facilitate energy flow in herself or another person. Energy work is believed to result in emotional and/or physical healing for the recipient. 26 she understands the information she receives. Her explanation displays both her sophisticated thinking and her humility. According to Barbara, her experiences in energy work began six or seven years ago, when she began learning to use a pendulum to receive information from spirit guides. Barbara was vague about what exactly led her to seek out pendulum and energy work, but she was clear that she never heard from spirit guides or any outside sources until beginning this work. In fact, Barbara was emphatic that she did not even believe she had the capability to communicate with spirit guides, as she said, “I knew people who did that, but I, you know, it was not my—it was like, that’s for them, but that’s not mine to do.” Barbara described the challenges inherent in beginning to learn how to hear from spirit guides: It was challenging because we both had to get on the same wavelength, so to speak. And then doubting that what you’re getting is real, or true, or right, or I’m not influencing it, or whatever. So, it was all part of a practice, or a getting better at it. Here, Barbara made it clear that her voice hearing experience was not unwelcome or intrusive. Quite to the contrary: the experience did not occur for Barbara until she deliberately initiated the process. So in Barbara’s case, she did not first have a voice hearing experience and then try to develop a way to understand it. The reverse occurred for Barbara; she made meaning of the voices first, and experienced them later. Barbara specified that she only hears from her spirit guides when she is seeking information: “Well, I don’t find that they, that I just stop in the middle of the day and have information come. I mean, I know people who do that, but that’s not how it works for me.” Once again, it is clear to see that Barbara is in firm control of her experience. She has not experienced voices as coming in and out at random times; they have been closely tied with what she is doing and for what she is asking. Later, Barbara made references to negative energy, and warned that if “[you] don’t have any boundaries, you’re going to take all that in.” She added, “So, it’s really important in the work I do that I don’t take in other people’s stuff, otherwise you’d just be stuck with all that.” Barbara indicated her ability to exercise control over what energy she allows to enter her personal space. She is not at the mercy of the energy and vulnerable to it. She has the agency to protect herself with a boundary. Barbara hypothesized

27 that many people who receive various psychiatric diagnoses may be having similar experiences as she, but without being grounded and having boundaries: My thinking is that, for some folks, I think, um, it’s…uh, uncontrolled knowings or spirit guides or, you know, you don’t set any boundaries. Or, they’re so connected on the other side, that they’re not here mostly. I think with autistic kids, a lot of kids who have trouble in school, I think they’re out there someplace and not, they’re not grounded here. Barbara described communicating with spirit guides as “helpful for my personal development, my personal healing as well as working with clients.” Barbara regards the experience as beneficial on multiple levels. In fact, when I asked, “Have you ever been troubled by the experience and wondered, ‘Is this okay to do?’” she replied simply and confidently, “No.” In addition, according to Barbara, the experience has never varied; “It’s always been helpful and peaceful.” Thus, the spirit guides have been predictable and consistent rather than random and confusing. According to Barbara, anyone is capable of receiving guidance from the voices if they would try and “wouldn’t be afraid.” Barbara does not view her voice hearing as an ability specific to her. In fact, she frankly admitted, “I don’t think I’m one of the best channels. [...] There are a lot of people who are a lot clearer, so I figure if I can do it, anybody can do it.” Barbara construes conversing with spirit guides as an ability like any other: “You know, some people are better at math, some people are better at spelling, whatever, some people have a greater gift.” Barbara indicated that all people have the capacity to be in touch with spirit guides, and many people are in touch as children, but are taught to ignore these experiences: And part of it, I think, comes out of, you know, when kids—I-I think kids who have imaginary friends, I think they’re real. I think for a lot, they’re real. Jesus can sit on the edge of their bed, they can see that, or they see their grandparents who have crossed over, whatever; I think that’s real for them. And so, at some stage, they’re told, “You’re too old for that.” You know? And so, we scare it out of them, I think. Thus, according to Barbara’s conceptualization, it is not just that having a validational community provides greater comfort with voices. It may be that having a validational community can, in some cases, allow the voices to occur in the first place (or to continue, if all people experience voices in childhood).

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Later in the conversation, I asked Barbara what would have happened if she had said no to the spirit guides who were advising her to leave her monastic community. She responded, “Well, it’s my belief system that even the ankle problems I have now is a result of not making a decision to move forward.” Barbara explained that, according to her understanding, foot and leg problems are associated with “taking too long to step forward.” However, Barbara did emphasize that her ankle problems have not occurred as a punishment for disobedience: “Now, would I be terrible? Would I be rejected by God? No. But I would have limited who I am.” Clearly, a refusal to follow the guidance of the spirit guides would not have been met with moralistic judgment in Barbara’s eyes. There would have been consequences, but certainly not punishment. In fact, she emphasizes, Yeah, I don’t believe God punishes. That just doesn’t make any sense to me! That God would punish us. I think we’re here to learn lessons, and we have some challenging things happen to us, and we can react one way or another to them. But that God punishes us, that just doesn’t make any sense to me. Barbara’s relationships. From an early age, Barbara was drawn toward life as part of a monastic religious community: I wanted to be in the middle of action and what I saw about the sisters from grade school and high school, that they were in the middle of what’s going on, and I wanted to be there. […] Being in the middle of the action was what I was looking forward to. It is clear that Barbara did not isolate herself from others; quite the opposite. Early on, she was aware of her passion for community involvement and was eager to pursue a lifestyle that would facilitate such involvement. And she enjoyed the work as well: “I got to do so many wonderful things as part of the community.” On the strength of her convictions, and to protect the wellbeing of her fellow sisters, Barbara chose to leave the monastic community she had loved and served for decades. She decided that she “wanted to be really free to be my own person, and not have to worry about what was coming down on the sisters, so I decided to move out on my own, doing things in my own way.” By choosing to leave, Barbara showed how much she cared about the sisters. She wanted to protect the sisters from any negative consequences they might face from the church, and was willing to sacrifice her own place in the community to do so.

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Barbara noted how supportive her fellow sisters were while she was a part of the monastic community. She mentioned her awareness that her religious denomination is not favorable toward her belief system, and that the sisters made efforts to support her “for years and years and years in the sense of, you know, um…loving what I do and encouraging it.” The strong support from her fellow sisters in the face of such powerful opposition from the church itself speaks to the strength of her relationships with the other sisters. It implies that Barbara had cultivated healthy friendships within the monastic community. Barbara had a validational community with whom she felt safe sharing her experiences. She never had to feel ashamed or try to hide what she was doing from those who are important to her, in spite of the church’s attitude toward her experiences. Later, she referred to the sisters as her “family” when describing how difficult it was for her to make the decision to leave the monastic community. Despite officially leaving the monastic community, Barbara noted, “There are several individual sisters that I keep up with as friends.” Here, Barbara reveals a strong sense of permanence. Her decision to leave the sisterhood did not obliterate her relationships. She has been able to choose which relationships she would like to continue, and take appropriate action to maintain those relationships. Regarding family, Barbara described being “really close” to one of her siblings and “sort of close” to the other. She spoke joyfully about her large circle of friends. Barbara spoke of interpersonal relationships in a mature, sophisticated manner, stating, “Well, I don’t think anybody, at least in my experience, can be everything for you, so it’s about having people who offer different kinds of things.” In other words, Barbara does not rely on any one person to meet all her interpersonal needs, indicating appropriately dispersed dependency. Her description of ideal relationships includes a mixture of mutual support (“you can depend on people, they can depend on you”) and enjoyable social interaction. Barbara recalled asking herself, when moving to a new location, “How am I going to meet people?” She was craving connection with others, and was able to take action to ensure that she did come in contact with potential friends. The enthusiasm was obvious in Barbara’s voice as she added, “I have people I want to invite over to dinner now!” Even before she met these new friends, she was actively maintaining physically-distant friendships: “I had lots of friends who would call me and I would call them, so we have that whole relationship still going, so I didn’t feel isolated or deserted or that kind of thing.” This demonstrates Barbara’s ability

30 not only to maintain close interpersonal connection over time, but also to remain connected with important others who are physically absent from her life. Distant others have not ceased to exist; their connection remains. Although still very much maintaining healthy interpersonal relationships, Barbara demonstrates movement from only interpersonal relating toward transpersonal reverence. She mentioned feeling as though she belongs to “this grouping or this energy” (the convent community). However, Barbara added, “But I’ve gone way beyond that, so it’s kind of like going from this smaller grouping to a universal energy, is how I think it is. So I still feel connected, but much bigger, if that makes any sense.” This stronger connection to the integral universe is an indication of health from an EPCP perspective. Barbara understands energy as something that interconnects all people. Besides her comment that “We’re all divine,” Barbara also spoke of angelic energy as being “all one big unit, pretty much, and we get what we need from that unit.” So, according to Barbara’s conceptualization, all people draw from the same energy source. She also described her belief that energies do not remain stationary within each person. Rather, they flow between people, and thus one person’s energy can affect another person for better or for worse: Well, you know, anger, I mean, can move people to do very positive things, but if you’re angry with me and send angry energy to me, I can feel that. I mean, you walk into a board room and you can tell what the energy is. In addition to her beliefs concerning interconnectedness, Barbara demonstrated her understanding of the separateness of others and their own ability to choose. For example, I asked Barbara about using the voices as a way of connecting with others. With my question, I had intended to ask about how having similar experiences can help deepen relationships. However, as my question was poorly worded, Barbara misunderstood and thought I was asking if the voices help her connect directly to another person’s inner self. She responded, The thing is, with spirit guides, you don’t ever ask a spirit guide something about someone else unless you have their permission. I mean, it’s like, you don’t, it’s just not right. So, and actually, they don’t answer you; they would tell me, “It’s none of your business.” Later, we did discuss the notion of being able to interact with others who have similar experiences with energy. Barbara described the excitement of others who hear voices when they

31 learn it is safe to talk with Barbara about what they experience: “And then, when I said, ‘Well, it’s really okay, tell me what you know,’ it’s like, ‘Oh my gosh! Somebody’s really willing to hear this.’ So there are lots of people out there who hear messages.” It is plain that Barbara’s experience does not separate her from others. To the contrary, it has been a means of meaningful connection. What we can learn from Barbara. I would argue that Barbara’s interview is consistent with the notion that healthy interpersonal relationships are related to low distress about voices. In Barbara’s case, she has healthy relationships and experiences no distress about her voices. She has remained connected with others throughout her life, and has maintained many relationships over long periods of time. Barbara also has had a broad range of relationships (spirit guides, community sisters, friends, colleagues, parents, siblings, faith community), and continues to enjoy adding to her relational community. I also would argue that, based on these data, having a relevant meaning making system is related to low distress about voices. Barbara is confident and consistent in her meaning making and does not find the voices distressing. In fact, her meaning making system was set in place before Barbara even began to hear the voices in the first place. She is positive about the origins and meaningfulness of her voices, expressing no doubt or confusion. Barbara also makes meaning with others who have similar experiences. By sharing common meanings with a validational community, Barbara goes beyond simply having an individual understanding of her voices. Candace Candace is a 35 year old Euro-American woman living in the Midwest. She is divorced and has three young children. After earning a Bachelor’s degree, Candace went on to earn a Master’s degree, then moved to India to teach English to Sri Lankan refugees. She currently is completing the final requirements for her Ph.D. in Hindu Studies. Between internships, work- study, and rigorous academic requirements, Candace has kept quite busy and productive throughout her adult life. She maintains joint custody of her children. When describing how she feels most days, Candace reported alternating back and forth between extreme moods. She indicated experiencing “cycles” of feelings that can vary widely from day to day, which has led her to be somewhat “cautious” when deciding whether to act on her feelings. For example, Candace stated, “So I’m like, right now I feel like packing up my

32 house and moving to China, but I’m just going to wait [laughter] a couple days, and see if I still feel that way.” Candace acknowledged feeling “a little bit on-edge” as a result of her “mood swings” because “I’m not sure that what I’m doing right now is what I really want to be doing.” In other words, because her feelings have been apt to change so rapidly, Candace has had some difficulty maintaining an enduring sense of what she wants. She questions whether something is what she “really” wants or just part of a transient mood. Despite her struggles, Candace stated, “I do feel like I enjoy life,” and, “I think I’m happy.” She noted she feels especially happy when spending time with her children. (Please refer to Appendix D for a full transcript of my interview with Candace.) Candace’s voice hearing experience. As Candace began to describe her experiences, she indicated that “hearing things” would be a more appropriate label than “hearing voices,” as she has heard many things besides voices, and has seen things as well. Candace’s label seems to reflect the chaotic nature of her experiences. She has not heard voices in consistent, comprehendible ways. Rather, she has heard “things,” which could take on any number of forms, and may or may not be associated with her present context. Candace reported that, as a child, she would hear “footsteps or scratching or that kind of stuff” at night in the darkness. These sounds continued into adulthood; Candace indicated still witnessing “a whole circus show” when trying to get to sleep in the dark. She described one instance in which a “blue balloon-headed man with a long tail” was floating around her face, but the vision did not speak. Candace described the sounds and visions in the dark as “petrifying” to the point that she is unable to move. She indicated that these nocturnal occurrences are frequent at times, but sometimes have disappeared for a few weeks at a time. Candace described an additional aspect of her experience when she has heard frightening sounds: When I hear a noise like that it sounds like—I feel like all of a sudden a tunnel opens up and I’m really close to the thing, even though it’s far away, it’s like, sometimes I hear, kind of like a white noise all of a sudden pop up, like my hearing’s opening up really wide. Later, when describing this “tunnel” experience in the context of hearing something else, she added,

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The hair would stand up on the back of my neck and everything, and then as soon as my nerves went down, then my hearing would go back to normal. So it was definitely like a nervous, sort of adrenaline feeling. Here, Candace seems to describe her sense of hearing becoming more acute during times when she feels unsafe. The sounds she has heard are quite frightening, and her hearing has sharpened to help her be alert to possible dangers. Beginning as a child and occurring occasionally in adulthood, Candace has been able to set a “mental timer” and hear her own name, loudly, when it was time to wake up. She gave an example in which her mental timer woke her up in an airport so that she would not miss her flight. Candace described this experience as useful, and she did not indicate that it felt threatening in any way. Family members have told Candace that she had an imaginary friend who she would speak with as a child, but Candace denied any specific recollection of this. She did state that she would sometimes have trouble distinguishing reality from her “fantasy life” when telling stories to friends. She reported that she “would tell these stories about something that had happened, and then I would get part-way through the story and realize that, wait a minute, I’ve never been to France, or something like that.” Here, she highlights her difficulty in distinguishing experiences that are perceived by her only from experiences that could be observable by or shared with other people. Candace also stated that she was “flaky” as a child, and had profound difficulty with “being grounded in the necessities of each day,” leading her parents and teachers to wonder if she might be on the autism spectrum. Candace indicated that she grew out of her “flakiness” in the fifth grade, and was able to keep better track of daily tasks like schoolwork. As a teenager, Candace would hear things during “séances” with friends. Initially, when describing these “séances,” Candace was very nonchalant about the experience. She said things such as, “It was just for fun,” and, “I really thought of it just as sharing my active imagination to spook out my friends.” However, when I remarked that the experience sounded as though it was enjoyable for her, Candace quickly replied, “It was terrifying. But, doing it with my friends made it, uh, it always felt safe when my friends were there.” In both her actions at the time, and in the way that Candace described the experience to me, she seemed to play off her confusion and terror by making the voices into a game to make them feel less threatening.

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While an undergraduate, Candace once had the experience of hearing a song “blasting” in her ears. She described having slept one to two hours per night over the course of three days while studying for an exam. While studying on the third day, she began hearing the song louder and louder, and could find no way to escape it. Candace described this experience as “scary.” While living in India, Candace would routinely see cats in her kitchen at a time when there were no cats living in the home. The cats were so vivid to Candace that she could not distinguish them from “real” cats. In fact, Candace indicated that, if she were with someone else and saw a cat, she would check with the other person to find out if he or she could see it too. However, Candace also indicated that she was not bothered by the “cats,” although she did find the experience “strange.” Candace described another experience, also while living in India, in which she saw a young girl in her home. Initially, Candace supposed the girl to be her daughter, but when Candace reminded the girl that she was supposed to be in bed, the girl abruptly vanished. At another time, while living in Nepal, Candace heard a voice saying, “Mama.” Candace added that she associated this voice with the little girl she had seen while living in India. When I asked if Candace’s visions have ever spoken to her, Candace described an experience that occurred last year at a time when she was meditating and perhaps close to falling asleep (although Candace made it clear that she was awake when she saw the vision). Candace reported seeing “a lady who was in a minivan” who advised her to “stay upstairs,” and kept repeating this advice over and over, “like a little tape and it was being played again and again.” Candace reported a general connection between her experience of stress and some of the things she sees. Specifically, she noted that she does not sleep as well when feeling stressed, and when in this state she will see “animals and all sorts of things that aren’t there” in her peripheral vision while driving. She described this experience as misperception of things that actually exist by her “active imagination.” For example, Candace mentioned seeing “a wolf by the road, and then I look over and it’s just a collection of trees,” and added, “I see concrete things where there’s just shadows.” Overall, Candace indicated experiencing a great deal of confusion about the voices as she has attempted to separate them from “real” sounds. When explaining her mental timer, she stated, “So, but it’s so vivid that I can’t distinguish it from—I mean, I can in a way because there’s no explanation for the sound, but in terms of like—it really does feel like I’m hearing

35 something.” Candace did two things here. First, she de-legitimized her experience by considering it to be not real. This happened again when she attempted to explain to me what she sees in the dark. She interrupted herself to say, “It sounds so silly to try to describe this!” as though she felt embarrassed. Shortly thereafter, she told me, “This is going to sound really strange.” Second, she indicated her inability to consistently identify where sounds originate. She has been unable to quickly identify whether a sound is occurring out in the world where others can hear it or if it is audible only to her. However, she seemed to contradict this later when she said, “It’s easy to tell whether it’s something that other people are hearing or seeing or not.” Perhaps the discrimination ability was more recently acquired for Candace. Again, Candace indicated confusion as she attempted to describe the sound quality of one of her voices: “Mm, I don’t know if I can say it has a gender. But it’s a deep, very commanding voice, and—yeah, maybe it’s a male voice.” When I asked if the voices have tended to coincide with periods of high stress, Candace replied, “Um, I-I’m not sure, but I would tend to say yes. Yeah, definitely.” Here, she made the journey from vague uncertainty to “definitely” in the space of only two sentences. Candace has developed many strategies for avoiding the voices, which indicates the degree to which she finds them frightening. For example, initially, she stated that the presence of the “cats” did not bother her. However, later she added, “You know, I actually, eventually I got cats, and, um, when I got the cats, I was like, if I hear anything, it’s the cats.” This, perhaps, was a subtle way in which she could avoid needing to make meaning of the “cats.” She could dismiss them if she could attribute the sounds to “real” cats. When I clarified that there are periods of time when she has not experienced voices, Candace said, “Yeah, and actually, when there’s nothing, I don’t notice it. It’s not like I’m like, ‘Wow, this room is really clear,’ it’s not like that, it’s just, I don’t notice it, or if there is something, then I sort of, it always kind of takes me by surprise.” So either the experience has been so random and disconnected from Candace’s life circumstances that it is always a surprise, or Candace has found it so threatening that she has avoided exploring how the experience may have connections to and/or implications for her life (maybe some mixture of the two). Candace noted that she is more likely to hear things if she is sleep-deprived or under the influence of particular substances. Here, Candace gives an idea of the context in which she saw the little girl in India, and heard her in Nepal:

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It was definitely like a high-stress time, and I wasn’t sleeping a lot. And I know that when I’m sleep-deprived and I’m using, like, lots of caffeine and lots of alcohol, things like that, that I have [these experiences]. Thus, the voices can be a result of physical distress. Candace noted the connection again at the end of our interview: “I don’t notice when I’m okay, but then once I start getting stressed out, it’s like, yeah, it’s just this noise around.” “Hearing things” is perhaps a signal to Candace that she is being taxed beyond her physical limits. In addition, the voices also have seemed to be related to psychological distress in Candace’s life. She described seeing the “girl” during a period of “stress” and marital problems. Hearing the child’s voice saying “mama” coincided with international moves as well as caring for three young children in the context of a divorce. Candace discussed feeling a general lack of control over her voice hearing experience. She stated, “I’ve always felt like I was, that there was the possibility that I could switch over from being engaged in this common reality that we all experience and just sort of drift off into this completely other parallel one.” Because she does not feel firmly established in what she calls “common reality,” it seems to feel as though exploring the non-common reality might sweep her away. She feels threatened by the possibility of completely losing control. It seems that Candace’s sense of lacking control has been pervasive, and not just about the voices. She recalled getting the giggles during church as a little girl, “and I was like, the Devil’s making me giggle in church! [laughter] And it was such a terrifying feeling because I, it was a feeling of loss of control.” However, Candace acknowledged there are times when she does feel “grounded” enough to explore the meaningfulness of the voices: But I feel like now that I’m a little bit more grounded, I feel like things are just a little more in balance, that it’s okay to sort of, just, you know, just to listen in and just to see, see what I hear. Candace described control as something she has begun to learn more recently in her life. She mentioned receiving advice from a friend about what she might do about the “blue balloon- headed man” who bothered Candace as she tried to fall asleep. The friend suggested that Candace “imagine winding him up and putting him in the compost pile in the back so he could grow into something nice.” After Candace tried this, the blue balloon-headed man did not return. She described how helpful this advice was, “just to feel like I have some kind of power to, to like just take it and put it somewhere else, get a little bit of space to fall asleep.” Candace added that,

37 as a child, “it never occurred to me that I could control, in any way, what I was seeing or what was going on.” There were clear feelings of fear, and perhaps guilt, for Candace as she contemplated engaging with the voice experience: “And I think, socially also, we have that idea about, like, if you’re not operating on this plane of reality, then there is something dark or evil or just destructive about that.” She seemed well aware that society equates morality with social norm compliance. For some of the voices, such as her “mental timer,” Candace indicated that she understands it as a part of her mind; “I was like, well that’s just my mind telling me something.” Candace has found voices and visions “terrifying” when she could not make meaning out of them, such as hearing a voice say “mama” or seeing the little girl. She described these experiences as feeling “external to myself.” Candace made it clear that meaning making is a struggle for her. “I mean, um, it’s just, you know, just strange experiences that, that you have, and then, I just try to integrate it in whatever way.” There was no sense that these experiences feel natural, orderly, or context-appropriate. For some of her experiences, Candace reported understanding them as purely biological in nature. After describing the instance in which she was sleep-deprived and heard a song blasting in her ears, Candace explained, “So that was pretty much the result of taxing my nervous system.” For other experiences, such as seeing animals on the side of the road when drowsy, Candace has “always thought of it as I just have a really active imagination.” When discussing the “séances” from high school, Candace elaborated on how conceptualizing her experiences as imaginative felt helpful: “And so then it made it, like, um, more my imagination and therefore something that I could control more.” Candace wants to conceptualize the voices as coming from her imagination because she could have more power over them and “protect myself.” Candace referred to her overall experience as receiving “disembodied pieces of guidance,” adding, “To whatever degree it makes sense for me to look at it that way, then, it’s comforting, I guess.” So the interpretation seemed to feel helpful to her, but did not seem to be a perfect intuitive fit. She was uncertain. When I asked where she believed the “guidance” comes from, Candace indicated, with continued uncertainty, that they come from within her, as “disconnected parts of myself.” She continued, “I guess I feel like they come from me, from some part of me. I guess that’s the way that I look at it.”

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Many of the words Candace used to describe her experiences with voices suggested an overall negative experience. She often used the word “terrifying,” and mentioned feeling “besieged” by the sounds at night. Candace also referred to the nocturnal experience as a “disturbance.” In addition, Candace indicated fearing how she would be evaluated by others if they knew about the voices. Candace has felt obligated to do certain other things in her life, like obtaining a prestigious academic position, in order to prove to herself and others that she is sane. If she were to take a less “traditional” career-path, “people are going to start thinking I’m crazy when I talk about these things.” So, to Candace, the experience has put pressure on her to be high-achieving. Candace adds, “If you want to make sure that you always have a voice, then you only say things that are believable.” She fears mistrust, dismissal, and ridicule from others. Candace continued, I feel like, if you’re homeless on the street and you say you heard somebody talk, you’re going to get thrown right into an institution. Like, there’s no in-between there. But, if you’re functional, then people just feel like it’s quirky or—it’s a quirk. Candace portrayed her functionality as central to her identity as a “sane” person, both in how she believes others perceive her and in how she perceives herself. When I asked if Candace would choose to not hear voices if she had a choice, Candace replied, I don’t think I would choose not to, even though—I think at this point I wouldn’t choose not to. I think, maybe earlier I would have, um, when I was a kid I think I definitely would have chosen not to, to see anything at night, but I don’t think I feel that way anymore. As Candace considered how to answer my question, she also indicated multiple times that it is a “good” and “interesting” question, implying that, despite all the unpleasantness she has experienced related to the voices, it really had not occurred to her to wish them away. This, perhaps, suggests some meaningfulness and importance of the experiences. Candace went on to add, “I guess because it’s part of, um, my experience with the w—it’s a, it’s an important part of my experience of the world. And um…yeah, somehow I feel like I’d be missing something.” The voice experience has made an important and meaningful contribution to her life. Candace’s relationships. When I asked about the important people in Candace’s life, she at once told me about her immediate family, particularly her parents and children. She also

39 acknowledged having “a lot of really good friends” when I asked specifically about friendships. Regarding what makes a good relationship, Candace indicated the importance of enjoyable communication (“somebody who has a lot of interesting ideas and who’s fun to talk to”), non- judgmental behavior (“someone who’s casual and who’s willing to come into my house when it’s messy, or hang out when my kids are around”), and emotional intimacy (“someone who’s affectionate, who’s willing to feel things and have a warm and affectionate relationship”). Candace indicated that she does not feel all that comfortable being around others when in pain, preferring her social time to be “fun time,” and choosing to “retreat into my shell when I’m having problems.” Candace continued, “It’s hard for me to be really vulnerable with people. I feel like it’s unsightly. [laughter] Some people are cute when they’re sad, I’m not! [laughter]” She was dismissive of her experience of sadness in multiple ways here. For one, she belittled herself by describing her sadness as “unsightly.” In addition, she accentuated this lack of self- compassion by laughing. By not allowing others to bear witness to her suffering, Candace restricts ROLE relating. She is safe from interpersonal injury, but gives others no opportunity to validate her process. Candace explained how her own view of her emotions influences her willingness to share her emotions with others: I guess it’s self-consciousness. But it’s also a feeling, like…when I’m having the issue, I’m never completely sure whether it’s, like, PMS, or something like that or whether it’s real? So sometimes I have a hard time validating my own, um, my own sadness, or whatever. And I, for that reason, I don’t want to share it. Candace’s questioning of whether her emotions are “real” or not seems similar to her struggle with knowing whether the things she sees and hears are real. At some point in her life, Candace perhaps learned that some emotions are legitimate and others are not. She seems to feel the need to justify her emotions with some sort of proof before it would feel acceptable to share them with another. She also has learned that it is not acceptable to share feelings with other people if the feelings are not “real,” leading her to retreat from ROLE relating. Some of Candace’s comments suggest she may have had permanence struggles as a child. For example, her challenges in determining the difference between her fantasies and shared reality indicate that, at that time, she was unable to distinguish the boundary between her imagination and the world that others could perceive as well. When she would tell a story, she

40 initially would lack awareness that the narrative occurred within herself rather than in the shared, external world. In this way, she perhaps did not maintain an experiential permanence in shared reality while engaging her imagination. It is almost as if she was absent from shared reality while fully immersed in her imagination—so much that she was unable to distinguish the two. As Candace has contemplated the possibility of following a less “traditional” career path, she has anticipated that “people are going to start thinking I’m crazy when I talk about [hearing things]. […] If I’m doing that, what separates me from an institution?” This prediction perhaps speaks to the lack of relational community, such as other voice hearers, to validate Candace’s experiences. In the absence of this validation, she has felt an obligation to prove her sanity. Candace appeared to be well aware of widespread stigma against persons who hear voices. She stated her concerns about stigmatization quite eloquently: I’m really afraid of, I’m afraid of literally ending up in an institution. Of literally being, sort of like, “Anything she says is crazy,” and not being able to say, you know, somebody was horrible to me, or somebody—you know, not having anybody believe you. And losing your voice. You know, so, yeah; if you want to make sure that you always have a voice, then you only say things that are believable. And then people continue to believe you. But then…yeah, once you start doing something that people think is odd, then--- anyway, and that’s just my feeling about it, it’s a fear that I have. What we can learn from Candace. Based on the data from Candace’s interview, we can see that limited interpersonal relationships seem related to distress about voices. In Candace’s case, she maintains some close relationships and experiences moderate distress about her voices. She speaks of having had friends throughout her life, and notes that she feels especially close to her parents and her children. Candace spontaneously mentioned a somewhat limited range of relationships (children, parents, siblings, friends), which possibly is indicative of inadequately dispersed dependency. In addition, Candace is well aware of the ways she may tend to limit connection to others. For example, she described how she avoids letting others bear witness to her more vulnerable emotions, such as sadness. In this way, Candace limits ROLE relating with others by denying them access to important aspects of her self. I certainly would not argue that Candace’s interpersonal relating is clinically pathological; rather, her range of relationships simply seems more limited than would be optimal.

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We also see from the data that having a limited meaning making system is related to distress about voices. Candace clearly explained the ways she has struggled to make meaning of her voices, and she finds the voices moderately distressing. She put forth a hypothesis about the origins and meaningfulness of her voices, but seemed somewhat uncertain. Candace described attempts to make meaning with others, but does not seem to have a validational community that includes others who also hear things. She sometimes has shared her voice experience, but only mentioned talking with people who do not hear things. Candace described her experience as a “quirk” with friends, and as something that her therapist encouraged her to ignore. Diane Diane is a 36 year old Euro-American woman living in the Midwest. She is happily married with no children. Diane reported having poor physical health from infancy up to the present. She stated, “I got sick for the first time when I was two weeks old. And it’s been constant, pretty much, ever since then.” Diane has multiple medical problems, including three autoimmune disorders, asthma, multiple allergies, COPD, sleep hypopnea, various infections, bronchiectasis, and migraines. However, Diane reported that her health has improved “dramatically” within the past year since she began working with a healthcare provider who is helping Diane to adjust her diet and wean her off most of her medications. Diane has moved between many different jobs, but always has managed to remain active, in spite of her many health problems. After earning her Bachelor’s degree, Diane has worked in food service, patient care, medical billing, massage therapy, and various administrative positions. She also began a Master’s program, but has been unable to finish due to financial constraints. At the time of the interview, Diane was considering becoming an energy therapy practitioner. Diane has demonstrated flexibility and adaptability in her daily life. For example, when she needed to give up massage therapy due to health problems, she was able to transition to another job she could do well. In response to a recent economic recession, she put her Master’s degree on hold in order to find a job. So she has been able to balance her wants and desires with context and practical constraints (e.g., “I need to pay for shit in the mean time”). Regarding psychological health, Diane reported longstanding depression, adding that her many health problems have an effect on her emotional state as well. As a parenthetical comment at another point in our interview, Diane reported, “My brain doesn’t shut off. Like, and I have trouble sleeping because of that.” This would indicate that she also experiences

42 anxiety/rumination to some extent. However, Diane did give some indication that her overall experience is more positive than negative when she discussed the costs and benefits of psychotropic medications: If somebody said, yeah, you’ll never have depression again, you’ll never have problems getting out of bed again, but all that other stuff [energy work, voices, etc.], you can’t have that either, I’d be like, see, I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that. (Please refer to Appendix D for a full transcript of my interview with Diane.) Diane’s voice hearing experience. As Diane and I discussed her life, it became clear that the voices she hears are only one component of her overarching experiences with energy. Although her interactions with voices and energy began at an early age, they have not occurred continuously throughout her life. Rather, there seem to have been several brief, discrete encounters throughout the years. Only recently had the experience come more to the forefront with the potential to be an aspect of Diane’s everyday life. Diane described herself as having been a “spiritual kid” prior to ever having heard voices. From an early age, Diane understood communication with the divine to be a normal experience. Diane recalled that, when she was a child, her mother told her about an experience when her mother felt comforted from fear by talking with God: “And I remember her telling me that story…and so, when I was pretty young, I had sort of a, um, what felt like a running conversation sort of.” (Diane confirmed she is not describing a two-way dialogue. Rather, throughout her life, she was “just always talking to God in my head.”) As a result, Diane understood spirituality and some amount of communication with the divine as acceptable and normal. She added, “And so, I kind of grew up thinking that that wasn’t weird, like—and I think that kind of sets the stage for later experiences.” She indicated understanding her experiences in terms of her openness to them. In other words, perhaps they would not have occurred without her openness. Diane described her first “energy” experience as occurring when she was in the second grade and she was able to touch a wild bird. She described slowly approaching the bird, and initially feeling surprised that it did not fly away. So Diane continued to approach the bird: And then I literally thought of it as like energy, like sending energy through my hand, like, you’re pretty, I love you, I’m not gonna hurt you, you know, kind of thing. […] And so I did. I petted this wild bird, like three times. And then I just kind of really

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slowly pulled my hand back. And I was like, you can go now. And he kind of, like, twitched his head, and he flew off. The first “voice” experience occurred close to the time of Diane’s college graduation. According to Diane, she was struggling at the time to determine a career path. Although Diane had long expected to attend graduate school and have a career in academia, she changed her mind as she came to understand the high-stress lifestyle that an academic career would entail. Diane stated that she was working in a coffee shop, handing change to a customer, when she suddenly received “an entire book” in her mind that she was supposed to write. Diane described to me the information that she received: It was the concept, it was the title, I had kind of like a visual of a front page, I had the chapter breakdown. […] I was basically supposed to interview these women at this nursing home. And talk to them about their life experiences and pivotal moments in their life, and things they wish they could pass on to other people. […] And there was like an arc to it, like, the interviews where women’s poignant, powerful moments were more in their childhood, and then adolescence, then early adulthood, then—so it was sort of the arc of the book, it was immediately there. I didn’t have the names of the people or anything like that, but it was just, it was so solid, it was so immediate. Even though the book was not a “voice” per se, there was a large amount of information that came across to Diane in the form of words and concepts. Diane indicated experiencing “relief,” “gratitude,” and “awe” upon receiving this information. Years later, Diane again was feeling perplexed as to which direction to take in her life. Over time, her excitement and urgency about writing the book had waned, and she ultimately did not write it. Diane described feeling abandoned by God in her confusion. In direct response to Diane’s questions about God’s abandonment, Diane heard a voice say to her, “God didn’t turn his back on you, you turned your back on God.” Diane described this voice as “androgynous,” as well as “non-human” in the sense that it lacked the vocal inflection and pitch qualities that characterize human speech. She added the descriptors “quiet” and “calm.” The voice was not auditory: “I don’t remember hearing it with my ears. It was more of like a thought in my head that wasn’t mine.” Diane was clear that she did not find the voice upsetting. In fact, she indicated that she found it comforting and normal, saying, “For some reason, it was completely

44 like, it didn’t disturb me, it wasn’t disturbing, it felt totally normal and fine.” She also described it as a “very powerful and informative and pivotal sort of experience” and “extremely helpful.” More recently, while in the midst of an angry rant when not able to find her car keys, Diane heard the same voice say, “You’re not paying attention.” She described the voice as follows: Very intense, very concise. But not like, not intense like someone’s yelling at you, but just like a…like, clear, like how a whistle cuts through the air. Like, there can be all kinds of things going on, but the whistle just cuts right through. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be loud, it’s just very pointed. Diane’s experience of the voice was that it was powerful without feeling violent or intrusive. In fact, it was clear that Diane did not feel afraid of the voice or its source, because she chose to talk back to it. In her frustration, she asked, “And how am I supposed to learn?! I don’t know how to do that!” The voice simply responded, “Learn it.” Diane revealed to me that she did not expect to receive a second response, and was quite surprised to learn that she was able to have a dialogue with the voice. She also noted that she asked the voice at this point to wait to continue the conversation until after she drove home so she could concentrate on driving, and the voice obliged. The conversation continued after Diane returned home, and the topic shifted back to Diane’s confusion over what she was to do with her life. As Diane prayed tearfully, a thought crossed her mind about how she did not want to pursue energy work, and the voice said, “That” (i.e., “That’s what you need to be doing”). Horrified, Diane tried to talk her way out of committing to energy work. In response, the voice said, “You promised.” At this point, Diane recalled and reflected on the many times in the past she had prayed for guidance, apologizing for not pursuing the book and promising to do better if she could only be given a second chance. Diane did not simply accept this information without question. She tried hard to rationalize that she “misinterpreted” the voice and attempted to “backpedal.” Then, the voice began to elaborate more than usual, saying something to the effect of, “You could have been helping people this whole time, and you haven’t. You’re wasting it.” Diane described the moment when she chose to talk back to the voice: “And, and normally, in the past, I had not actually gotten snarky with the powers-that-be. So this time, I was being cranky, and [laughs] um, emoting [laughs].” The fact that Diane felt safe enough to

45 be “snarky” with the voice highlights the fact that the voice did not frighten her. So she did not feel the need to cower before the voice and do its bidding; there was space for her to be present and have a will of her own. Several weeks after her emotional back-and-forth dialogue with the voice, Diane made her first attempt to deliberately initiate contact with her “spirit guides,” saying, “’Okaaay…[laugh], I would like to meet you? And I’m open to communicating with you…,’ and I’m like, kind of fumbling my way through a really sad and pathetic invitation.” After this invitation, over the course of the day, Diane gradually began to hear voices “talking to me in my head—not hearing with my ears, but like, in my head.” She described the voices as similar to a “Greek choir,” with many voices speaking in unison instead of the single voices she had been hearing up to this point. As with the initial voice, the choir was “androgynous.” However, the choir felt “way too close” for Diane’s comfort, as it would begin commenting before she had finished a thought. Diane indicated that she could not choose what to share with the choir; it had open access to her stream of thoughts. Diane stated, “I have not asked them back since, because it was very disturbing.” Again, it is clear that Diane has had the power to set a firm boundary, and the voices have respected the boundary. Diane said, directly to the voices/chorus, “This is just, it’s a little too much too quickly, I just need some space. I just need a little space.” Even though the closeness felt intolerable, Diane remained in control of setting boundaries. The experience would not continue without her express permission, even though “part of her” wanted the experience to continue. Diane emphasized, “I wanted to feel like I had some control over it, as opposed to just feeling like I was at its whim or whatever.” Despite the fact that Diane found the “choir” experience so disturbing because of the lack of distance, she also described the choir as “encouraging,” “supportive,” “honest,” and “very helpful.” The content and intention of the choir were good. She commented on this later as well: Yeah, like, at the time, with the voices, they—they were being very loving and supportive and nice, and it was just the—like I said, just the closeness of it that made me go, blah! It wasn’t what they were saying, or how they were saying it, or anything like that. It was just the, the weirdness of it.

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Later on, she added, “I’m not there yet, but it’s not intrinsically bad, it’s just complicated. And that, that is scary and uncertain and disconcerting, but it’s not bad, you know?” Diane was clear that uncomfortable does not necessarily mean “bad.” Later, I asked Diane if she would choose to be rid of the voices and the energy work if she had a choice, and she said no: Because…it’s, it’s good, it’s warm, and it’s loving, and it’s gentle, and there are no negative side effects. It’s such a positive thing that…to wish that something so positive would go away just so that your life would be less complicated seems really short- sighted, and…really…superficial. Diane was clear here that her encounters with voices/energy have been overwhelmingly positive experiences, in spite of all her fears and hesitations. Diane commented that she was very much still in the process of meaning making around her voice experiences. At the time of our meeting, Diane conceptualized the initial, single voice as a generic “helpful spirit entity” without a personal, specific connection to her, while she understood the choir to be her personal “spirit guides.” Several days after our interview, Diane sent me an email describing another kind of experience she sometimes has: I also occasionally hear classical music too. It’s not remembering a piece I’ve already heard or thinking about a melody (like when you hum). It is a full orchestra playing something I’ve never heard before…it’s nice. Just thought I’d mention it. Late in our interview, Diane anticipated the reactions of others in reference to hearing voices and practicing energy work: “Because…[sigh] um…. Because I know how…I know how the world sees…people…um…like me.” Even with Diane’s background and past experiences, in which hearing the voices was so positive and felt so natural, the larger cultural perspective loomed large. Thus, she anticipated rejection from others: “You’re going to lose your friends, you’re going to lose your family, you’re going to—people are going to think you’re crazy.” Diane likened her experience to that of someone coming out as gay in a predominantly heterosexual society. She noted that, although cultural attitudes seem to be shifting regarding sexual orientation, “our attitude toward science and logic and ‘show me’” is not changing. Despite the fact that the voice experience felt so natural and normal intrinsically, she avoided it because she expected stigmatization from others. Again, the experience itself is not the

47 distressing part. Diane was clear that her fear of stigma is more related to the voices than the energy work: “The thing that I thought would be the straw that broke the camel’s back would be the voices part.” The “Greek choir” was the only voice experience that Diane explicitly invited (albeit not really knowing what she was in for). Paradoxically, this was the only voice experience she found “disturbing.” The previous voices, although context-relevant, came unbidden following or during periods of distress, but did not feel disturbing. However, Diane did make it clear that there was nothing in the content or intention of the voices that made them disturbing. The chorus was not “mean” or attempting to hurt or control her in any way. The extreme intimacy was the disturbing part. Arguably, the greatest distress that Diane has experienced related to the voices has to do with her learning the perspective of mainstream psychiatry. She mentioned having seen persons experiencing psychosis in the emergency room where she once worked, which was the frame of reference for her construal of schizophrenia. And then I looked it up. And I freaked out. Because I was reading this stuff that was not as crazy as I thought it was supposed to be. I thought that should be like, way over there, so clearly not in touch with reality, really way way over there. And instead, the stuff that I was reading…you could make a case for, you know, delusional, thinking you have powers that other people don’t have, hearing voices, seeing things. I mean, you know, I was reading all this stuff, and I was like, “Oh. Oh shit. Oh shit! SHIT!” Diane commented further on the extreme invalidation she felt when reading about mainstream psychiatry’s perspective on voices: What if all this stuff that you think you feel and see and—whatever, what if all that’s just your brain misfiring? What if this is all bullshit? And you’re just—you’re crazy? You’re a crazy person, and that’s why all this is happening? And I, I literally felt cold inside. Like, my whole world just kind of went, just like, twenty degrees to the left. Because it had, it had never occurred to me, that had never occurred to me. As Diane anticipated that I might ask her, “What makes you not schizophrenic?” she answered, “I only have this one thing that is under the schizophrenia umbrella, and I can still function in the real world.” She clearly has not experienced any functional impairment from hearing the voices. Quite to the contrary; the voices have provided Diane with comfort and encouragement.

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Diane was confident that she was not creating the voices. She stated unequivocally, “I know how my brain works, and I know—I’m a relatively creative person, but I’m not an inventor.” She made it clear that she has taken time to introspect about her experience and carefully explore the possible origins of the voices. She demonstrated flexibility and openness here, as she was not immediately and rigidly tied to any specific interpretation. Diane’s relationships. Diane indicated having a very close bond with her mother, and referred to her mother as her “best friend.” Diane also referred to her mother as her “patient advocate,” noting that their relationship reflects the unusually close bond that tends to occur between parents and chronically ill children. Diane described her relationship with her mother as central to her core existence. Her main fear about the voices and energy work was that, if she were to embrace them, she would be separated from others. The prospect of separation from her mother was the most distressing to Diane. She was tearful as she described to me, “If I lost all the rest of my family, if I lost all my friends, I could handle it as long as…as long as I could keep her, I could do it.” Diane described her father as a “butthead,” adding that he “had a pretty violent temper. I was pretty scared of him as a kid.” She indicated that she maintained a relationship with her father into her adult years, even allowing him to live with her and her first husband for a period of time. At the time of my interview with Diane, they were not on speaking terms, but Diane did add, “…[sigh] I need to do something about that. I’m not excited about that prospect.” Diane described growing up within a faith community and having much involvement in various church activities. She enjoyed being involved as an acolyte as well as fulfilling various roles within the church’s youth group. Diane credited her early church involvement with “setting the stage for later experiences” in that she believed in the ability to have a relationship and “running conversation” with God. In describing her first marriage, Diane stated that she and her ex-husband were “really good friends,” but grew apart for various reasons. She indicated a desire to re-establish contact with him at some point so they might continue their friendship. This demonstrated some ability to modulate relationships; the end of the marriage did not necessarily mean the end of the relationship. Diane also demonstrated her ability to take another’s perspective, as she explained that she would want to respect the feelings of her ex-husband’s new wife, and avoid contacting him without his current wife’s consent.

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Diane indicated her desire for a reciprocal ROLE relationship in her current marriage. She stated she does not like “being taken care of,” stating her preference to be equal partners with her husband. Therefore, Diane has been dismayed when her health has prevented her, at times, from contributing as much as she would like. However, Diane did report providing much emotional support to her husband, referring to herself as his “life coach” in some ways. Diane’s husband has been one of the few people she has talked with about her voices and energy experiences. Diane noted that her husband has a different conceptualization of the source of her voices: “He says, ‘That’s just your intuition, that’s just like a different part of your unconscious- subconscious-super-id-blah,’ I don’t know, whatever, but ‘it’s something that’s just you talking to yourself, and that’s fine.’” Despite their differing opinions regarding the nature and origin of Diane’s voices, she described him as being very supportive. Diane reported that she does not currently have many local friends, but indicated that she was actively working to meet new people, especially within her faith community and within the energy work community. She also reported a history of having groups of friends throughout middle school, high school, and college. In addition, Diane has demonstrated her ability to maintain relationships over time, such as with her “best friend from sixth grade,” and she noted, “You’re so invested, that even if you don’t necessarily have quite as much in common with that person anymore, it’s a solid bridge.” Diane noted the centrality of important relationships in her process of exploring energy work and the voices: “Thankfully, having the support that I have makes that a lot easier. A lot more doable.” Relational support has been key for her in being able to respect and make meaning of the experience. She also commented on the importance of relationships with others who hear voices, noting, “When I’m around my people [laugh], I feel okay, I feel more okay about [the voices].” Support and validation from both sides have been crucial to helping Diane accept her experience. It also has helped Diane to focus on the ways in which her experience can bring connection and positive consequences for others. The voice/energy experience has not served to isolate her from others; the whole point of it has been to connect (i.e., “you could have been helping people all this time”). Many of Diane’s comments seemed to reflect an understanding of the integral universe. For one example, the information that came across to Diane for her “book” was primarily concerned with creating meaningful connections between generations: “forgotten grandmothers”

50 passing down their “wisdom” for generations to come. Diane provided another example as she described “divine intervention moments” throughout her life: Sometimes, just the right thing happens at just the right moment. Like, you’re walking down the street, and then you happen to bump into somebody that tells you about something that was exactly the thing that you—and you hadn’t seen that person in—you know, I mean—so sometimes, it’s that whole, um, “there are no coincidences” kind of idea of—spiritual idea of the world. In addition, Diane’s conceptualization of God’s nature seemed much more akin to the integral universe than to any religious dogma: I guess I just sort of call it “God” as sort of like an umbrella term. Because it’s…a feeling of love and kindness and protectiveness and, just this benevolence and, you know—it’s more the quality, it’s not necessarily that I think of God with the gray beard and, you know, sitting on a throne, or anything like that. It’s just more that feeling and that intention, and that interact—that way of interacting, not like this individual dude [laugh], but just sort of a—yeah, like help, helpful and kind and loving and supportive and…forgiving and gentle and, all those kinds of things. Diane seemed quite comfortable with the notion of interconnection via energy, as seen though her experience petting a wild bluebird. The interconnection only began to feel uncomfortable when Diane was not able to maintain her sense of separateness, as with the “Greek choir.” Diane explained, Part of what was really bothering me about it was I didn’t have my sense of myself as an individual. […] I felt almost like colonized. I don’t know, I felt like my—my individual integrity had been compromised or something. Diane did not yet feel comfortable with such a high level of intimacy with the interconnected universe. As a result, she was not able to maintain a sense of herself as a separate person while in the presence of the chorus. Diane plainly demonstrated transpersonal reverence with her comments on the importance of letting others know about hearing voices: “The lesson that I’ve been learning, even though it’s the shittiest, horriblest, most hardest lesson ever, is that…you can’t be quiet about it. Because that’s what creates the problem.” Diane stated this in spite of her inclination to keep her experience of hearing voices private because of what others might think of her:

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When you’re an intelligent person, you like—I like that when I say something to someone, and, like, make a point about something, that they’ll think about it, and that it has a level of validity. […] That people see you as an intelligent person and you have credibility when you speak. And if you turn into woo-woo crazy cat lady, when you say something, people automatically…you can see just, like a curtain goes across the back of their eyes. And you can just see them go, “Oh, you’re one of those.” Diane was well aware that others might question her credibility and think of her as “crazy” if she were to speak of voices and energy work, even the people closest to her (her partner and her mother). Yet, she has felt compelled to share her experiences for the greater benefit of other voice hearers. Her willingness to be open about her voices to reduce stigmatization of others, in spite of the potential personal cost to her, is a clear indicator of transpersonal reverence. What we can learn from Diane. We see from Diane’s interview that limited interpersonal relationships seem related to distress about voices. In Diane’s case, she has maintained some close relationships and has experienced some distress about her voices. She spoke of having had friends throughout her life, and noted that she feels especially close to her mother and her partner. However, Diane also was emphatic about her intense fear that her loved ones might abandon her if they knew about the voices; she initially was not fully confident that those relationships could withstand this revelation. Diane described a somewhat limited range of relationships (mother, partner, some long-distance friends, and now a strained relationship with her spirit guides), suggesting inadequately dispersed dependency. At the time of the interview, however, Diane was in the process of taking action to expand her relational network to include local friends (in addition to her partner’s friends), a newfound faith community, and other energy workers. Thus, she seemed well aware that she could benefit from additional interpersonal connection. We also see that having a limited meaning making system is related to distress about voices. Diane expresses some confusion and hesitation about the meaningfulness of her voices, and experiences some distress from the voices. Diane puts forth an hypothesis about the origins and meaningfulness of her voices, and she seems fairly certain that her conceptualization is accurate. However, Diane experiences much trepidation about integrating the voices with her life, and thus she hesitates to embrace the meaning making system fully. Diane has not been part of a validational community until recently. At the time of our interview, she was making efforts

52 to meet others who work with energy and spirit guides, and expressed the desire to talk with others who hear voices. General Themes Participants reported a wide range of different experiences across the voices continuum. Regarding length of time hearing voices, the experiences ranged from six or seven years total (Barbara) to beyond the current lifespan (Alice, as she described speaking with Spirit prior to her conception). Concerning the amount of information heard, the experiences ranged from primarily yes/no answers (Barbara) to having a full back-and-forth dialogue (Alice, Diane), or even receiving an entire book (Diane). Regarding the way voices are received, experiences ranged from hearing a voice internally and being fully confident of its origin (Alice, Barbara) to hearing voices aurally and being unable to immediately determine whether or not the sound was “real” (Candace). All participants reported leading quite active lives. All were highly educated (each one had at least a Bachelor’s degree) and each has held multiple responsible positions. There is no doubt that these women have been functioning adequately. Even Candace, who clearly has experienced a great deal of distress over her voice and vision experiences, is healthy across several life domains. She has achieved academic success, has kept up with a busy and productive life, has remained connected to her family whom she loves dearly, and reported that she enjoys life. All participants had meaningful connections to important others, although the number of close connections varied. Each was able to define what a healthy relationship looks like, and each expressed a firm desire to be connected with others. None of the participants reported voice hearing that was completely isolated from other kinds of experiences. For Alice, Barbara, and Diane in particular, the voices were inextricably intertwined with their understanding of spirituality and the experience of being “led” by a force outside of their human selves. The voices were one part of an overall spiritual experience, which also could include receiving “divine nudges,” information in the form of a book, translated conversations, etc. Candace did not describe an overarching spiritual experience to account for her voices. However, as she described her experiences, she included visual experiences as well. For example, she heard a child’s voices saying “Mama” at one point, and saw a vision of a small

53 girl at another time. Candace integrated these experiences into their possible relationship to her miscarried child. All discussed having boundaries and control over the experience as pivotal to wellbeing. For example, Alice and Diane each described occasions when they have asked the voices to “back off,” and each report that this boundary was respected by the voices. Barbara spoke of the importance of protecting herself from unhelpful, negative energy, noting her ability to avoid taking in “other people’s stuff.” Candace emphasized the helpfulness of her recently-learned skill of controlling some of her more frightening visual experiences. None of the participants would choose to get rid of the voices if given a choice, regardless of the amount of distress associated with the experience. Even Candace, who described the voices as “terrifying” several times, indicated that her voices and visions have been an important part of her life, and that she would be “missing something” if they were to go away. In a similar vein, all participants spoke of the voices being helpful and/or meaningful at least part of the time. Alice, Barbara, and Diane all had a sense that they were not influencing or creating the voices. Rather, they were receiving information from an outside, albeit connected, source. Candace had a sense that at least some of the “things” she has heard have come from herself. Interestingly, this also was how Diane’s husband conceptualized Diane’s voices: “He says, ‘That’s just your intuition, that’s just like a different part of your unconscious-subconscious- super-id-blah,’ I don’t know, whatever, but ‘it’s something that’s just you talking to yourself, and that’s fine.’” Paradoxically, for those who have understood the voices as being separate from the self (Alice, Barbara, Diane), they have felt more of a connection to the voices (e.g., the voices say relevant things, they can be trusted, they make sense, they are a relevant part of life). For Candace, the opposite was true. She conceptualized the voices/things, at least in part, as disconnected parts of herself, and they did not seem nearly as connected/relevant to her life in general. Candace stated that she had difficulty with “being grounded in the necessities of each day.” Her description bears a striking resemblance to Barbara’s thoughts on potential complications with voice hearing: “For some folks, I think it’s…uncontrolled knowings or spirit guides or, you know, you don’t set any boundaries. Or, they’re so connected on the other side,

54 that they’re not here mostly. I think with a lot of kids who have trouble in school, I think they’re out there someplace and not, they’re not grounded here.” Candace and Diane each discussed, in very similar terms, their fear that they would lose credibility if others knew they heard things. Each spoke of the fear that others would think she belonged in an institution, and each had fears of not being believed or taken seriously by others. They each spoke of feeling pressure to conform to societal standards of conventional employment in order to establish their sanity to others. Summary Across all four participants, we see a strong connection between interpersonal relationships and level of distress. In essence, healthy and sufficiently dispersed interpersonal relationships are associated with lower distress about voices. For Alice and Barbara, they enjoy a wide variety of interpersonal connections, and have been able to maintain connections over time. They also maintain consistent contact with others who have similar voice hearing experiences. Although Candace and Diane appear to have several fulfilling relationships, they also seem to have fewer interpersonal connections than do Alice and Barbara. Also, Candace lacks the validational community of other people who hear voices, and Diane is just beginning to seek and build a validational community. In addition to interpersonal relationships, we also can see a connection between integral universe connection and level of distress. Alice and Barbara, for example, each described their experiences in terms of being guided by a universal energy source that all people have the ability to draw from. They each discussed the ways that actions have far-reaching ramifications based on our interconnection with each other as humans, the environment we live in, and spiritual energies. Alice and Barbara also reported experiencing very little general distress in their lives, and no distress regarding their voices. Candace did not report any integral universe connections, and reported moderate distress about her voices. Diane discussed her communication with spirit guides in somewhat similar terms as Alice and Barbara, but was clear that she was still in the process of developing and learning to understand this relationship. Thus, Diane’s integral universe connections were somewhat tenuous, and she reported moderate distress about her voices as well. We also see that participants with an elaborated and integrated way of understanding their voices experienced less distress from the voices. Conversely, participants who experienced

55 confusion and/or disconnection from their voices experienced moderate distress from the voices. For Alice and Barbara, the experience was fully integrated with their daily lives, and in fact caused no distress. They each were confident about the source of the voices, which remained relatively consistent. They did not acknowledge any confusion about the experience; the voices have been reliable and omnipresent, but never intrusive, demanding, or denigrating. Alice and Barbara were confident in the good intention of the voices they have heard, and also have felt comfortable setting boundaries with no fear whatsoever of punishment. For Diane, the voice experience was somewhat integrated and caused some distress. She shared her beliefs about the nature and origin of the voices, but with less certainty than Alice and Barbara. Diane acknowledged much confusion and hesitation about the voices, especially about what they mean for her life in general. Although Diane described the voices as providing helpful information, she had yet to act on their suggestions, implying a lack of full trust of the voices on Diane’s part. Diane expressed marked discomfort at the omnipresence of the voices, and was exceedingly troubled with feeling as though she could not choose what to share and what not with them. However, she also felt no hesitation to ask the voices for space, which was consistently respected. For Candace, the experience of voices was partially integrated and caused moderate distress. She tentatively described the voices as parts of herself, “disembodied pieces of guidance;” however, in the moment when she has experienced them, the voices have tended to feel frightening and foreign from the self. The experience has not been at all consistent; Candace has heard and seen all kinds of things that typically have little overt relevance to present circumstances, though she sometimes was able to notice connections after the fact (e.g., hearing the voice at the time she would have given birth to her miscarried child; the minivan woman’s directive to “stay upstairs”). Candace’s experiences have come and gone somewhat randomly, although she did acknowledge that she has been more likely to “hear things” during times of physical and emotional stress. She did not carry a consistent sense of the voices’ presence. For example, when the nocturnal “circus show” has been present, Candace has felt terrified, but when it was not present, it completely fell out of her awareness. Candace described some of her experiences as intrusive and unpleasant, and others as fairly neutral, but she made no mention of any time when the voices were denigrating, or making any demands of her. Candace had only just begun to learn how to set boundaries around her experiences when we met. Previously, it

56 had never occurred to her that she could have any power over it. As with Alice, Barbara, and Diane, Candace noted the helpfulness of appropriate boundaries in her relationship with the voices. Discussion Based on the data from all four participants, we see clear connections between distress levels, interpersonal relationships, and meaning making. First, better relational health—both in interpersonal relationships and with the integral universe—is associated with lower voice distress. Second, more extensive and integrated meaning making is associated with lower voice distress. These results can be discussed in terms of implications for clinical applications and elaboration of EPCP theory. Clinical Applications Although my participants were not part of a clinical population, they provided many clues as to how one might best intervene with a client who hears voices. First, therapists ought not over-pathologize people who hear voices. There is no indication that there is a one-to-one relationship between hearing voices and pathology. If therapists simply assume pathology, they risk invalidating the client’s experience. Therapists also would possibly be focusing clinical attention on something that is not harmful, thereby potentially taking attention away from more useful avenues. If therapists are distracted by trying to find a way to make the voices go away, or trying to find the cause of them in some early trauma, they may completely miss areas where the client really does need help. Recall Barbara, who experienced some depression prior to making her decision to leave the convent. Barbara stated clearly that what she really needed was to make this important, difficult decision about the course of the rest of her life. The voices were incidental to this. She did not need to figure out what the voices meant (the manifest content was self-explanatory) and she did not need to figure out what was causing them (she had figured that out before she even started hearing them). She certainly did not need for them to go away; she found them quite helpful, and accurate. They did not interfere with her functioning, and Barbara’s suffering was not related to the voices. So if a therapist gets distracted by or anxious about voices, he or she easily could miss opportunities to be of help. In fact, clinicians ought to be alert for ways that the voices might add meaningfulness and connection to people’s lives, and may actually be a helpful psychological resource for coping with life challenges.

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Voices are meaningful, no matter where they come from. If therapists feel uneasy about them, they also might miss ways voices could make their job easier. Consider Diane’s case. If she were a therapy client, an anxious therapist may be likely to refer for medications to do away with the voices (there is plenty of research for us to determine that psychopharmaceuticals are not helpful for pathological voices either, but that discussion is beyond the scope of this paper). A therapist may also assume the voices are trauma-related, and look for traumatic events in Diane’s history that may have caused the voices, even though Diane finds the voices helpful. They are calm and supportive, they provide meaningfulness and guidance that Diane is longing for, they are respectful of boundaries, and so on. If a clinician was not bothered by the fact that Diane hears voices, and not eager to do away with them, the clinician could talk to Diane about why she hasn’t been following the advice of the voices, and to help her struggle over why something that seems so helpful still feels so upsetting as well. It seems the problem has to do with societal stigma, important relationships, family dynamics, and Diane’s ability to trust and value her experience. The problem is not voices. Second, if the client has specific concerns about the voices themselves, clinicians may best be of help by facilitating the meaning making endeavor, and helping to construct boundaries and control as part of this process. We see from the participants a clear connection between meaning making and wellbeing. Thus, a therapist can be perhaps most helpful by providing a safe space for clients to explore the potential personal meaningfulness of their voices. Consider Candace and Diane. They both experience some amount of distress from their voice-hearing experiences. Yet neither of them would wish the voices away if given a chance. Note also that they both emphasize the meaningfulness of their voices. Even Candace, who described feeling often confused and sometimes terrified by the voices, recognized them as an important part of her life. Likewise, Diane explained how “short-sighted” it would seem “to wish that something so positive would go away just so that your life would be less complicated.” All participants discussed the importance of boundaries, of being able to set limits around the voices. We see a strong connection between the participant’s ability to enforce boundaries and the participant’s distress level. Therefore, a psychotherapist also could be useful by helping clients to initiate a dialogue with the voices—one in which the client makes clear his or her concerns and personal limits. Alice speaks to this well. She describes the importance of boundaries even in the context of her situation, in which the voices are never hostile or pushy.

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She indicates that it would not make sense to ignore or go against what the voices advise, as she has found them to be so accurate and reliable. However, even in this more-or-less ideal voice hearing experience, boundaries are crucial. As Alice acknowledged to the voices that she was in agreement with their guidance, she added, “and you’ve got to back off.” Note also that none of the participants described their voices as demanding. None of the women felt coerced by their voices. This is an additional potential clue to how clinicians can recognize when voices are not pathological. If the person is able to engage the voices in a productive dialogue, the voices are less likely to warrant clinical concern. However, if the voices are demanding and coercive, they would be a far more legitimate clinical focus. Third, people who hear voices seem to benefit greatly from connection to a validational community. Both Alice and Barbara spoke to the importance of this issue. In addition to helping with meaning making, a validational community also provides the kind of moral support that non-voice-hearing connections (therapist, family, friends) simply cannot provide. This is not to say that people who hear voices cannot receive support from people who do not hear voices. However, those who do not have the experience do not know what it is like to hear voices, or to deal with the stigma that comes with hearing voices. Diane has discovered this for herself, and spoke of her enthusiasm for continuing to find and interact with others who have similar experiences to herself. She noted how enjoyable it is to be in the company of others to whom she does not need to explain her experience. She does not have to justify herself, find words to describe the indescribable, or wonder what judgments might be running through the other’s mind. The results of the present study constitute further evidence that voices in and of themselves cannot be considered automatic indicators of psychopathology. This finding is consistent with various quantitative studies in which there is no empirical link between hearing voices and impairment (Bentall, 1990; Johns & van Os, 2001; Longden et al., 2012; Tien, 1991; Watkins, 2008). Rather, based on the present data, the primary indicators of psychopathology (again, human suffering, not disorder), are limited relational connection and problems in meaning making. At first glance, the findings may seem similar to what has been labeled the “happy schizotype” conceptualization of some voice hearers (McCreery & Claridge, 1995). McCreery and Claridge (1995) define “schizotypy” as a personality dimension incorporating “subclinical”

59 psychotic symptoms (p. 132). The authors assert that the schizotypy dimension is not inherently pathological. They propose the analogy that schizotypy is to schizophrenia as blood pressure is to strokes or kidney failure (McCreery & Claridge, 1995, p. 133). However, even with this caveat, I would avoid the “happy schizotype” terminology for multiple reasons. First and foremost, the term “schizotypy” refers to a vague personality dimension which may or may not include voice hearing. In fact, many researchers claiming to investigate schizotypy fail to explain how they define the term in a clear and concise way (see Claridge, McCreery, Mason, Bentall, & Boyle, 1996; Linney, Murray, Peters, Rijsdijk, & Sham, 2003; McCreery & Claridge, 1995). However, most researchers loosely refer to four dimensions of schizotypy. They place voice hearing under the category of “unusual experiences.” The other dimensions are cognitive disorganization, introverted anhedonia, and impulsive nonconformity (Linney et al., 2003). As voice hearing constitutes only one potential component of one schizotypy dimension, the term schizotypy is inadequate for inclusion in the present study. Second, despite the authors’ best efforts to explain how schizotypy differs from a “breakdown process” such as “schizophrenia” (McCreery & Claridge, 1995, p. 133), the term “happy schizotype” is fraught with connotations. It may, for some, conjure the image of one who is cheerfully insane to the amusement and ridicule of patronizing others. There is likely no explanation the authors could provide that would eradicate the decades of stigma and assumptions associated with the term. Third, the term “schizotype” implies an abnormal or anomalous experience, when we know from the research that hearing voices is far more common than most would expect. Referring to a person as a “happy schizotype” may simply be a method of grudgingly acknowledging that a person is functioning well without any obvious signs of psychological distress, yet still finding a way to classify the person as other, as separate from the “normals.” For example, the authors who coined the term continue to describe voices as “psychotic symptomatology” throughout their writing on schizotypy (McCreery & Claridge, 1995). Therefore, even though they assert that “a moderate degree of schizotypy may even be of adaptive value” (McCreery & Claridge, 1995, p. 142), the inherently pejorative terminology the authors use makes it challenging to view their argument as a benevolent or helpful conceptualization.

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I would argue that a more helpful—and more empirically-based—conceptualization of hearing voices is that it simply is an ability that we all possess to some degree, and that it is neutral with regard to pathology. This conceptualization allows clinicians and researchers to focus not on the presence or absence of voices, but on what they can tell us about the person who hears them. Elaboration of EPCP Theory Up to this time within the EPCP literature, EPCP theorists have discussed voices primarily within the context of severe psychological disturbance, often stemming from structural disruptions caused by early interpersonal injuries. With the present study, we can elaborate EPCP theory to include voice hearing that is not pathological in nature and therefore account for a broader range of experiences. As expected based on EPCP theory, the best interpersonally connected participants, Alice and Barbara, seemed to be the least distressed. Therefore, we potentially can extend the theory to identify this factor (interpersonal relationships) as perhaps the primary difference between pathological voice hearing and non-pathological voice hearing. However, meaning making also was a pivotal factor for my participants. The more elaborated the meaning making system, the less distress in general. With a future study, we could examine whether relationships or meaning making have equal importance, or if one is more vital than the other. Researchers could explore this question by interviewing two different groups of persons who hear voices. One group would consist of people who have healthy and elaborated relational networks, but little or no understanding of the meaningfulness of their voices. This group might include persons who understand their voices as random byproducts of physiological processes. The second group would include people who have a strong and consistent sense of the source, purpose, and meaningfulness of their voices, yet have few healthy interpersonal relationships, if any. By comparing these two groups, we could learn much about the relative importance of relationships and meaning making. In some cases, the voices actually facilitated connection for my participants, such as when Alice could hear the conversation between her Polish teacher and classmates, or when Diane’s voices exhorted her to practice energy work so that she could be helpful to others. We then can understand voices as healthy, from an EPCP perspective, if they are helpful with regard to relationships. It then follows that we can understand voices as pathological only to the extent

61 that they limit connection with others. If the voices do not limit interpersonal connection, there is little justification for deeming them pathological. We can consider voices to be neutral with regard to pathology if they have no bearing on relationships. To investigate this further, we could design a study to interview several persons who experience one of the three different types of voices: healthy (facilitating relationships), neutral (not associated with relationships), and pathological (limiting relationships). We then could examine other areas of each participant’s life, such as mood, occupational functioning, life satisfaction, and so on, to see if relationship- facilitating voices are associated with benefits across other life domains when compared with relationship-neutral and relationship-limiting voices. My participants’ voice hearing stood in direct contrast to the experience of every severely disturbed client I have worked with who has heard voices. With these clients, the voices often have been directly related to relational retreat, and they interfered with building and maintaining relationships in quite obvious ways. One of my former clients, Leanne, heard voices that labeled most of the people in her life as “child molesters.” This is an obvious example of how voices can lead to retreat from connection; by labeling others in such a way, Leanne could reliably keep most others at a safe distance from herself. Another client, Joseph, would hear voices instructing him to kill himself each time he attended a group therapy session. Yet another client, Janice, told me at one point during our therapy that she could not meet with me anymore, as the voices kept laughing at her for telling me too much. For each of these clients, their voices demanded (not suggested or advised, but demanded) that the hearers avoid getting too emotionally close to other people, and thus the hearers were kept safe from relational invalidation by doing as the voices commanded. This did not occur with the participants for the present study. Even Candace’s voices, which she typically has found distressing, did not interfere with her interpersonal relationships in any way. They did not instruct her to avoid certain people or to use suicide to escape interpersonal connection, and they did not mock her for communicating with other people. Therefore, from an EPCP perspective, it is quite important to know whether or not the voices impede relational connection. There is some evidence, based on the present data, that voices are unlikely to be problematic if they do not interfere with the hearer’s relationships. As relational connection is the hallmark of EPCP, it follows logically that relationships should be the primary test of whether or not any experience is pathological, including voices.

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One surprising aspect of the results, from an EPCP perspective, was the relationship between distress and perceived source of the voices. Candace, who seemed to find her voices more distressing than the other participants, construed her voices as “disconnected parts of myself,” reminiscent of the EPCP notion that “symptoms” are messages to us, from us, about us. Based on EPCP theory, understanding this concept should be associated with lower distress. However, note also that Candace felt unsure about her construal, and therefore we may understand her distress as more indicative of her confusion about the experience than anything else. Additional research is necessary to more fully explore potential connections between beliefs about the origins of voices, the degree of certainty in those beliefs, and distress level. An additional facet to the present study is the intersection between ROLE relating and meaning making: validational community. Alice, for example, did not simply have a meaning making system that made sense only to her. She has maintained connection with a worldwide community of other people who have similar experiences to Alice and believe similar things about those experiences. The same was true for Barbara; the main difference is that, for Barbara, her meaning making within a validational community preceded hearing the voices. Diane expressed the ways she has felt reassured as she has grown more connected to the energy work community, connecting with others who experience voices and energy, and accepting their assistance in her meaning making process. Candace did not describe having an extensive community to validate her experiences. She did describe efforts to reach out to various sources that have provided some assistance with helping her to understand the voices, but was not connected to a community that could help contain her experiences in a more comprehensive way. Thus, for persons with experiences such as voice hearing, shared meaning making may be more important to psychological health than meaning making on an individual basis. They share an experience that is highly stigmatized and poorly understood by society in general. Therefore, there is perhaps a much more specific need for ROLE relationships in which their voice experiences can be validated more fully. Within this community, a person who hears voices does not need to explain, hide, or justify his or her experience. Researchers should continue to investigate the concept of validational communities, what forms they may take, and to whom they are most important. Perhaps validational communities are more important for people who are stigmatized or otherwise viewed as anomalous from the general population. Researchers and clinicians could learn much about what happens to a person’s meaning making system when the

63 person becomes involved in a validational community, and how the validational community contributes to any changes that occur. An unanticipated finding, but one still consistent with EPCP theory, is that connection to the integral universe is associated with lower distress among the four participants. I began the study with the intent to look specifically at interpersonal relationships, and was unprepared for the degree to which the integral universe would play such a pivotal role in my participants’ meaning making. Alice and Barbara both discussed connections with powers greater than themselves, a universal energy that connects all. Recall the way Alice paraphrased the popular proverb about a butterfly’s wings affecting hurricanes halfway around the world. Recall also Barbara’s explanation of the ways that strong emotions linger in physical spaces and can affect the people who inhabit those physical spaces. Diane described connections to the universe as well, as with her experience of being able to touch a wild bird, and her recognition of the importance of being “out” with regard to her experiences of voices and energy work for the greater benefit of others who share these experiences. Candace did not comment on any consistent greater-than connections. She noted the possibility that she may once have been contacted by her deceased unborn child, but has not experienced this connection on an ongoing basis. Thus, degree of integral universe connection seems to have an especially strong connection to the experience of healthy voice hearing. From the present study, there are potential research implications for our understanding of connections to the integral universe. Based on the present data, perhaps voices are a good litmus test for one’s degree of communion with the integral universe. It is possible that a person’s relationship with voices may tell us much about the health of that person’s relationship with humanity, the environment, the greater-than-human world, and so on. Persons who perceive their voices as coercive, demanding, or hostile are perhaps more likely to have an analogous relationship with the interconnected universe, and more likely to view the world as a dangerous place. Likewise, persons who experience their voices as supportive, benevolent, and understanding may be more likely to feel a positive connection with the integral universe. To clarify: As we know from studying interpersonal relationships, connections can be both awful and “aweful” (Leitner & Faidley, 1995). They are awful in that we risk painful invalidation when we grow close to another person, and some amount of invalidation is simply inevitable. However, relationships are “aweful” in that they provide us with richness and

64 meaningfulness that we cannot receive in any other way. We may find that the people who hear voices in the absence of psychopathology have a more aweful integral universe relationship. That is, the relationship would be mutually validating, fulfilling, and committed over time. The potential for invalidation would exist, and invalidations would invariably occur. Yet, the health of the relationship would be enough to heal these injuries resulting from invalidation, and the rupture-and-repair process ultimately would strengthen the connection to the universe. The person would revere the universe and be accepting of reverence from the universe. Consider the moment when Alice described having a client cancel an appointment. We could potentially understand this cancellation as an invalidation from the universe. However, based on her established relationship with the universe, Alice asked herself, “I wonder why that needs to be available?” Alice then is unsurprised by the crisis call that follows, and she understands this call as validation of her trust in the interconnected universe. Conversely, people who hear pathological voices may well have a more awful integral universe relationship. In essence, the person would experience the universe as highly invalidating and victimizing, and the relationship may feel disjointed and/or discontinuous. There would be opportunities for validation, but the person may not recognize them, or may even choose to avoid such validation to avoid becoming too connected, and therefore too vulnerable to future invalidation. The person would lack reverence for the universe, and would not be willing or able to accept reverence from it. For instance, we can return to the example of Alice’s canceled appointment, imagining that Alice instead had a less healthy relationship with the universe. If this were the case, Alice likely would be more deeply hurt by the invalidation of the canceled appointment. She could feel angry, confused, and helpless instead of trusting that there would be some meaningfulness to the event. Then, she may construe the crisis call as an additional invalidation: the universe has upset her plans yet again. Because of the co-created nature of reality, Alice would play a role in creating a world in which she consistently would experience invalidational injury. Limitations and Additional Future Research The sampling strategy may have had some effect on the results. By using word-of-mouth for recruitment, I was aware that my participants did know some of the same people, and some of the participants may even have been acquainted with one other to some degree, although I cannot say for certain whether or not this is so. Nonetheless, their being part of overlapping

65 social networks may account for some of the similarity between the participants with regard to their meaning making of the voices, especially the voices’ source and purpose. We could address this issue by recruiting participants from diverse geographic areas, or by inviting participation with flyers in public areas. However, note also that my participants’ narratives were by no means identical. It is clear that the participants’ potential interpersonal connections cannot fully account for the results I have presented. For the present study, I am unsure whether the age of participants might have made a difference to the results. The two older participants, Alice and Barbara, experienced lower distress, had more extensive relational networks, and had better elaborated meaning making of their voices than the two younger participants, Candace and Diane. From the data, it is unclear what Alice and Barbara may have experienced differently two decades ago, if anything. It also is unclear how Candace and Diane will have evolved two decades from now. It would stand to reason that, as age increases, people have more time, and cumulative wisdom, with which to make sense of their experiences. Thus, it will be important to recruit participants of various ages in any future inquiries to examine whether these age differences continue to influence findings or whether they occurred in the present inquiry by chance alone. We perhaps could glean even more information from a longitudinal study to better understand the life trajectories of those who hear voices. With longitudinal studies, we could gain a much better understanding of how persons who hear voices integrate their experiences as they age. It is possible that persons who hear voices may follow a more or less predictable developmental pattern throughout their lives, perhaps in a similar way as someone might come to terms with sexual orientation or cultural identity. One example is the model proposed by Cross (1991) for racial identity development. Cross (1991) describes how a person may begin by identifying primarily with the dominant societal group, but then would be faced with “encounters” that force the person to recognize his or her “otherness” in the eyes of the dominant group. The person then can respond by becoming immersed in relationships primarily within the person’s minority group, in an effort to seek supportive role models and a positive self-concept. The person later can move toward re-establishing connection with the dominant group, perhaps as an advocate for his or her minority group. If an analogous model exists for people who hear voices, it could be potentially helpful to use for interventions with people who hear voices and are attempting to adjust to the experience. It could be utilized as another meaning making tool

66 for helping people who hear voices to better understand, integrate, and normalize their experiences. One striking difference between all participants is the diversity regarding when in their lives they would experience voices. Alice described having heard them her whole life, and even beyond her life to include former lives and periods between lives. Barbara had only started hearing voices six or seven years before the interview, well into adulthood. Candace experienced voices in multiple different ways throughout her life, but also has had periods of time when they seem to temporarily recede. Diane noted a handful of distinct and intense voice- hearing moments beginning in college, with the voices seeming to increase in frequency and intensity in recent months. With these four completely different patterns of experience, it is challenging to draw any conclusions about what different patterns of voice hearing might be able to tell us. Based on the present study, perhaps predictability and consistency are important factors. Although Alice and Barbara each started hearing voices in different life stages, they each report a consistent and rather predictable experience with their respective voices. Candace and Diane, who each report some distress about their voices, have far less predictable and consistent voices. Other researchers could address this issue with additional qualitative study focusing specifically on how the pattern of voice hearing might influence the person’s experience of them. Conversely, perhaps the hearer’s attitude toward the voices may have an effect on the pattern in which they occur. For example, perhaps someone who is terrified of the voices is more likely to try to push them out of awareness, and thus experience them in a more sporadic way. This may even predict how intrusive the voices are experienced to be, as attempting to push them out of awareness may, at times, have the paradoxical effect of increasing their intensity. This would be in contrast to someone who finds joy in the voices, who may have a greater willingness to integrate the experience into daily life. Thus, this person would perhaps be more likely to hear the voices in a predictable and consistent manner, and to experience them as nonintrusive. In order to examine these propositions, we will need to investigate them systematically. Willingness to accept voices may have the effect of making the voices more pleasant and/or manageable, which is substantial evidence against the idea that voices should be ignored or pushed out of awareness. We could find that, regardless of the content of the voices, it is crucial to listen to them and to honor what they have to say.

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An additional limitation of the present study is that the participants all were highly educated Euro-American women living in the Midwest. It is unclear whether or how people’s experiences may differ across gender, race, ethnicity, region, nationality, education level, socioeconomic status, and other cultural variables. As researchers continue to explore the wide range of voice hearing experiences, it will be important to include diverse populations whenever possible. Then, we have better opportunities to learn which cultural variables might influence a person’s experience of voices with regard to relationships and meaning making, and what influence these variables might have. For example, perhaps people who hear voices have more positive experiences within cultural groups that do not ascribe to mainstream Western conceptualizations of “mental illness.” It also is possible that the implications of relationships and meaning making for voices transcend various cultural variables. In other words, for someone who is hearing voices, their education level (for example) may have a negligible influence on their experience of voices when compared to the influence of interpersonal relating and process of meaning making. We could propose more definitive answers for these questions through additional inquiry. We also should consider the potential role of privilege as we consider the results of this and similar inquiries. Within American society, highly-educated, well-travelled persons of European descent certainly benefit from a level of systemic privilege not available to persons of lower socioeconomic status and/or persons of color. We must consider that privilege may play a role in one’s comfort level with experiences (such as hearing voices) which society deems unusual or abnormal. Candace speaks to this issue in terms of education level and occupation; she feels the need to attain a certain standard in these domains to prove herself to others, to show that she does not belong in an institution simply because she hears voices. Researchers could investigate potential links between different types of privilege and a person’s meaning making and distress level related to hearing voices. Researchers also could investigate whether there is any meaningful difference between persons who hear voices in an auditory way, as Candace did, and persons who hear voices without a literal auditory component, as did Alice, Barbara, and Diane. In the present study, it happens that Candace, the most distressed, also was the only one who consistently heard her voices as though they were external sounds. From my clinical experience, I would expect that there is no significant difference between the two types of voices; I have met with clients

68 experiencing a range of different voice hearing experiences. However, to my knowledge, there has been no empirical investigation on this subject. If there is a true difference in outcomes between people who hear auditory versus non-auditory voices, the distinction could be diagnostically important. Clinicians could get a good idea of a client’s distress level simply by asking about how the voices are “heard.” If there does not seem to be any significant difference in outcomes based on how one perceives the voices, clinicians can instead attend to factors that do make a difference. We may also be able to learn about distress based on how the person understands the source of their voices. Recall that Candace was the only participant who construed her voices as disconnected parts of herself, while the other participants each ascribed their voices to an external, spiritual source. Candace also experienced the most distress from her voices. With future research, we could investigate how commonplace this experience is. Perhaps voices that are experienced as “disconnected parts of myself” (Candace) are indeed qualitatively different from voices that are perceived to originate from a benevolent external source. Note also that Candace seemed the least sure of the source of her voices, stating, “To whatever degree it makes sense for me to look at it that way, then, it’s comforting, I guess.” It is possible that distress is more a function of confusion than of perceived source. Again, understanding the facets of the voice hearing experience that tend to be experienced as distressing is important for determining focus of clinical attention and intervention. Importance of Findings I would like to stress several ways that the present results are important. First, we can readily interpret the study as further evidence that there is not necessarily any link between psychological distress and the experience of hearing voices. People can hear voices and lead happy, healthy lives. They can be connected with people who share similar experiences while also maintaining relationships with others who do not. They can have diverse, demanding, and enriching careers. They can utilize their voices as rich sources of support, comfort, advice, guidance, and connection. There is no basis for assuming that all persons who hear voices are psychologically distressed. Second, with the stories of my participants, I have presented some evidence that EPCP can be a useful theory in determining when hearing voices is cause for clinical concern. The two most central tenets of EPCP, ROLE relationships and meaning making, were vital for

69 determining if the voices either facilitated or hindered a person’s ability to live a rich and meaningful life. If the person maintains a variety of rich, fulfilling, and mutually validating relationships, voices are unlikely to pose a problem. Likewise, if the person can construct a consistent and coherent system for understanding the meaningfulness of the voices, it seems the voices are far less likely to be a source of distress. This may be especially true in the context of opportunities to make meaning within a validational community, where meanings can be shared and understood in union with others. Third, regardless of whether a particular person’s voices are primarily helpful or harmful, all voices provide information of great importance to the hearer. It is never for the outsider—not even a well-meaning psychologist—to decide whether or not the voices are worth listening to. I admit that, after talking with Candace about her experiences, I was somewhat surprised to hear her say that she would not do away with the voices if given the chance. Based on how terrified Candace has felt by the voices, it was easy to assume that she would not want them. But they are important to her. Even though she does not feel that she fully understands their source or purpose, they feel like a meaningful part of her life that she would miss if taken away. Ultimately, no one but the hearer has the right to judge the importance, usefulness, or meaningfulness of the voices. Fourth, inquiries such as this can help change the public’s perception of voices, for those who hear voices and for those who do not. Recall Diane’s comment on the notion of keeping her voice/energy experience a secret: “The lesson that I’ve been learning, even though it’s the shittiest, horriblest, most hardest lesson ever, is that…you can’t be quiet about it. Because that’s what creates the problem.” According to Diane, in order to change societal/cultural ideas about hearing voices, the people who hear them have to be willing to share how the experience can be helpful, and not necessarily a sign of pathology. Maybe then, we could understand people who hear voices as “more simply human than otherwise” (Sullivan, 1953, p. 32) instead of less-than or “mentally ill.” My Views I became aware of a shift in my own understanding of hearing voices, from the beginning of my initial literature review on the subject through the conclusion of the present inquiry. I was not immediately aware of this shift until I happened upon an article I planned to send to Diane which included a list of various beliefs about voices in the form of 45 statements (Jones et al.,

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2003). The researchers had asked participants to rank the 45 statements in order from “most strongly disagree” to “most strongly agree.” The statements were representative of three categories of beliefs about voices: biomedical (e.g., “People hear voices because of their family genes”), psychological (e.g., “Hearing voices results from being mentally injured as a child”), and spiritual (e.g., “Voice hearers are at an advanced spiritual stage”) (Jones et al., 2003, p. 194). I recalled that I had completed the activity, and vaguely remembered having done so to see how I would sort my beliefs two or three years ago. Out of curiosity, I decided to complete it again after interviewing my four participants, without looking at my initial responses so I could compare the two. Ranking the statements was quite a challenging task on both occasions. The first time, I had an idea that the population of voice hearers was not a homogenous group based on my review of the literature, so I was well aware that people could hear voices without having a severe psychological disturbance. But my opportunities to actually speak with persons who hear voices had been limited to long-term psychiatric hospital inpatients. Thus, it was easier to rank the psychological statements higher (e.g., “Hearing voices results from being mentally injured as a child”), because the clients I had interacted with fit this profile well. The second time I ranked the statements, I had interviewed all four of my participants, and also gained a good deal more clinical experience with persons who hear voices. At that point, I knew for certain that there was no way to speak of voice hearers in terms of a uniform category. I noticed the most striking difference in the way I initially sorted statements into the broader categories of “agree,” “disagree,” and “neutral.” In my initial sorting of the 45 statements a few years ago, I agreed with 17, disagreed with 20, and was neutral toward 8. In my second sorting, however, I agreed with 10, disagreed with 16, and was neutral toward 19. At the start of this study, I was sure of what I did not believe about voices: that voices are caused by chemical imbalances, that voice hearers pose a danger to society, that all voice hearers need to take medication, and so on. I also was fairly certain of what I did believe: that most people would hear voices given the right circumstances, that voices often come from painful memories, that voices help people to cope with life problems, and so on. My categorization of statements regarding chemical imbalances, perceived dangerousness, and medications changed very little from the first ranking to the second. Based on my rankings, it is clear that I remain certain of what I do not believe about voices, but my neutral beliefs have more than doubled. After talking

71 with my participants, and also having more clinical experience with persons who hear voices, I have come to doubt, more than ever, that there is any predominant “cause” of hearing voices. I also have come to realize that there are very few general statements one can make about the experience of hearing voices, because each person’s experience is so unique. But one belief has become much clearer to me: whatever the cause, the voices have served the same function for everyone I have spoken with, and that function is to make meaning. Whether people hear voices in the form of pleasant guidance for their everyday lives, or in the context of a psychiatric hospitalization to preserve their safety, voices help people make sense of their world. James hears the voice of God telling him to cut his own throat, and he complies (and narrowly survives). The voice provides James with a meaning he can tolerate (he has a divine mandate to leave this world to live in a much better afterlife) so that he can avoid intolerable meanings (I have been so badly injured by those I love that it would be better for me to cut my own throat than to go on living). Leanne hears voices that point out child molesters to her. They provide her with meaning she desperately needs (I am able to protect myself from potential perpetrators). Diane hears a voice that tells her what to do with her life, providing her with guidance she has been seeking desperately. Alice’s voices translate a conversation occurring in another language, which would otherwise have been meaningless to her, and she now can try out strategies to improve her relationships. In the cases of the vast majority of my clients, including James and Leanne, I believe their voices occur as a direct result of early traumatic experiences (structural disruptions) and are a product of their own minds. The voices are a non-conscious survival strategy. Could they be hearing from angels and/or demons? I do not believe so, though there certainly is no way to disprove the notion. Could James be hearing from God? I do not believe so—and neither did James several days after his suicide attempt. (Even Leanne began to spontaneously question the source of her voices after we had worked together for several months.) In the case of my participants, I have little opinion to offer in terms of a definitive statement of what has caused their voices. Could Candace be hearing from split-off parts of herself? I have no reason to doubt her conceptualization, and certainly it makes sense in light of the EPCP notion that experiences like voices are messages to us, from us, about us. Could Alice, Barbara, and Diane be communicating with Spirit, spirit guides, and angelic energies? I do not see why not, and I certainly am not offended by the idea of communication with a greater power.

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And if we understand their experiences in light of the EPCP notion of an interconnected universe, there is nothing abnormal about their voices. But I am aware that my opinion means very little next to the experiential truth of the voices for these four women. The voices are theirs and not mine.

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Hillman, J. (1996). The soul’s code: In search of character and calling. New York: Random House. Jackson, M., & Fulford, K. W. M. (1997). Spiritual experience and psychopathology. Philosophy, Psychiatry, and Psychology, 4, 41-65. Johns, L. C., & van Os, J. (2001). The continuity of psychotic experiences in the general population. Clinical Psychology Review, 21, 1125-1141. Jones, S., Guy, A., & Ormrod, J. A. (2003). A Q-methodological study of hearing voices: A preliminary exploration of voice hearers’ understanding of their experiences. Psychology and Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, and Practice, 76, 189-209. Kelly, G. A. (1955). The psychology of personal constructs (2 vols.). New York: Norton. Leitner, L. M. (1988). Terror, risk, and reverence: Experiential personal construct psychotherapy. International Journal of Personal Construct Psychology, 1, 251-261. Leitner, L. M. (1999). Levels of awareness in experiential personal construct psychotherapy. Journal of Constructivist Psychology, 12, 239-252. Leitner, L. M. (2006). Therapeutic artistry: Evoking experiential and relational truths. In P. Caputi, H. Foster, & L. Viney (Eds.), Personal construct psychology: New ideas (pp. 83- 98). Sydney, AU: Wiley. Leitner, L. M. (2007). Theory, technique, and person: Technical integration in experiential constructivist psychotherapy. Journal of psychotherapy integration, 17, 33-49. Leitner, L. M. (2009). Doing(?) experiential personal construct psychotherapy. In L. M. Leitner & J. C. Thomas (Eds.), Personal constructivism: Theory and applications (pp. 193-214). New York: Pace University Press. Leitner, L. M. (2010). The integral universe, Experiential Personal Construct Psychology, transpersonal reverence, and transpersonal responsibility. Studies in Meaning, 4, 225- 244. Leitner, L. M. (2013). Evil: An experiential constructivist understanding. In A. Bohart, E. Mendelowitz, B. Held, & K. Schneider (Eds.), Humanity’s dark side: Evil, destructive experience, and psychotherapy (pp. 119-140). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association Press.

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Leitner, L. M., & Celentana, M. A. (1997). Constructivist therapy with serious disturbances. The Humanistic Psychologist, 25, 271-285. Leitner, L. M., & Faidley, A. J. (1995). The awful, aweful nature of ROLE relationships. Advances in personal construct psychology, 3, 291-314. Leitner, L. M., Faidley, A. J., & Celentana, M. A. (2000). Diagnosing human meaning making: An experiential constructivist perspective. In R. A. Neimeyer and J. Raskin’s (Eds.), Constructions of disorder (pp. 175-203). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. Leitner, L. M., & Pfenninger, D. T. (1994). Sociality and optimal functioning. Journal of Constructivist Psychology, 7, 119-135. Leudar, I., & Thomas, P. (2000). Voices of reason, voices of insanity: Studies of verbal hallucinations. London: Brunner-Routledge. Linney, Y. M., Murray, R. M., Peters, E. R., MacDonald, A. M., Rijsdijk, F., & Sham, P. C. (2003). A quantitative genetic analysis of schizotypal personality traits. Psychological Medicine, 33, 803-816. Longden, E., Madill, A., & Waterman, M. G. (2012). Dissociation, trauma, and the role of lived experience: Toward a new conceptualization of voice hearing. Psychological Bulletin, 138, 28-76. Lysaker, P. H., Buck, K. D., & LaRocco, V. A. (2007). Clinical & psychosocial significance of trauma history in the treatment of schizophrenia. Journal of Psychosocial Nursing, 45, 44-51. McCreery, C., & Claridge, G. (1995). Out-of-the-body experiences and personality. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 60, 129-148. McKenzie, K., Fearon, P., & Hutchinson, G. (2008). Migration, ethnicity, and psychosis. In C. Morgan, K. McKenzie, & P. Fearon (Eds.), Society and psychosis (pp. 143-160). New York: Cambridge. Noll, R. (2007). The Encyclopedia of Schizophrenia and Other Psychotic Disorders (3rd ed.). New York: Facts on File.

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Posey, T. B., & Losch, M. (1983). Auditory hallucinations of hearing voices in 375 normal subjects. Imagery, Cognition, and Personality, 3, 99-113. Rees, W. D. (1975). The bereaved and their hallucinations. In B. Schoenberg, I. Gerber, A. Wiener, A. H. Kutscher, D. Peretz, & A. C. Carr (Eds.), Bereavement: Its psychosocial aspects. New York: Columbia University Press. Reese, E. K. (2010). Examining causal beliefs and stigmatizing attitudes toward persons diagnosed with severe mental illness (Unpublished master’s thesis). Miami University, Oxford, OH. Romme, M., & Escher, A. (1989). Hearing voices. Schizophrenia Bulletin, 15, 209-216. Romme, M., & Escher, S. (1993). Accepting Voices. London: MIND. Shevlin, M., Dorahy, M., & Adamson, G. (2007). Childhood traumas and hallucinations: An analysis of the National Comorbidity Survey. Journal of Psychiatric Research, 41, 222- 228. Sullivan, H. S. (1953). The Interpersonal Theory of Psychiatry. New York: W. W. Norton. Suri, R. (2011). Making sense of voices: An exploration of meaningfulness in auditory hallucinations in schizophrenia. Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 51, 152-171. Tien, A. Y. (1991). Distributions of hallucinations in the population. Social Psychiatry and Psychiatric Epidemiology, 26, 287-292. Watkins, J. (2008). Hearing voices: A common human experience. London: Michelle Anderson. Whitfield, C. L., Dube, S. R., Felitti, V. J., & Anda, R. F. (2005). Adverse childhood experiences and hallucinations. Child Abuse & Neglect, 29, 797-810.

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Appendix A—Phone Script Hello, my name is Emily Reese, and I am a graduate student in Miami University’s clinical psychology program. I am interested in learning more about the experiences of people who hear voices. Research suggests that hearing voices is a relatively common experience, but researchers know very little about the experiences of people who hear voices and do not seek or receive any kind of mental health services. If you agree to talk with me, I will ask questions about your voice hearing and how you understand your experience. I also will ask questions about important relationships in your life and questions about your basic daily activities. You have no obligation to participate. I really do want to make sure that participants only talk with me about their experiences if they feel completely comfortable doing so. In addition, you have no obligation to continue to participate once we begin talking. If, at any time, you feel uncomfortable and would like to stop the interview, please let me know and we will stop immediately. This is not a problem; again, my biggest concern is that you only talk with me if you feel comfortable doing so. Do you have any questions?

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Appendix B—Consent Form 1. This study is concerned with examining the experiences of people who hear voices. If I agree to participate, I will be asked to participate in an interview in which I discuss my voices, how I understand them, and my interpersonal relationships.

2. I understand that I am free to discontinue my participation at any time without penalty. I may also decline to answer any questions that make me feel uncomfortable.

3. I understand that participation in this research does not guarantee any benefits to me.

4. I understand that if I agree to participate, the interview will last approximately 60 minutes and will be digitally audio recorded. The recording will be transcribed, but my name will be replaced with a pseudonym and all other identifying information will be changed. I give my permission for the researcher to quote from my interview responses I contribute, verbatim, in part or in whole in any reports of this research (including papers presented at professional conferences, articles in professional journals, or book chapters). I understand that I may be asked if I would be willing to participate in an additional follow-up interview, but I am in no way obligated to agree to this. Participation is completely voluntary.

5. I understand that I will be given additional information after my participation is complete.

6. All the information collected in today’s study will be kept confidential, and stored in a secure location for the duration of the project. The information will be accessible only to Emily Reese, the project supervisor (Dr. Larry Leitner), and any persons who may assist with transcription. I understand that neither my name nor any other directly identifiable information will be included in the final manuscript.

7. I understand that, if I wish, I may obtain written information about the outcome of the research at the end of the academic year. Upon request, I may receive a copy of the results via email or post.

8. Some people may experience distress while answering questions about their voices and other personal experiences. If this occurs, I can let the interviewer know, take a break, or choose not to answer questions that are uncomfortable. If I would like to discuss my reactions with a professional, I may contact the Community Counseling & Crisis Center in Oxford, Ohio, at (513) 523-4149, or the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at (800) 273-8255.

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9. The possible benefits of participation in the present research are that participants may learn more about how qualitative research is conducted.

10. I understand that I will be provided with a blank, unsigned copy of this consent form at the beginning of the study.

11. I understand that I may contact the experimenter, Emily Reese, through the research supervisor (Dr. Larry Leitner, (513) 529-2410) in the Department of Psychology at Miami University if I have any questions or concerns regarding my participation in this study. If I have any questions about participant’s rights, I may contact the Office for the Advancement of Research and Scholarship at (513) 529-3600.

12. I affirm that I am 18 years of age or older.

13. I have freely consented to participate in scientific research being conducted by Emily Reese.

Printed name: ______Signature:______Date:______Researcher/witness signature:______

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Appendix C—Sample Interview Questions/Prompts 1. Tell me about the voices you hear. a. How many different voices do you hear? b. When did you first start hearing voices? What was happening in your life around that time? c. How do you feel about the voices? i. Do you find them helpful, harmful, or neutral? ii. How do they generally make you feel? iii. Over the time you’ve been hearing the voices, has your attitude toward them changed or remained the same? iv. Can you choose whether or not to hear the voices? 1. If yes, why choose to hear them (or not)? 2. If no, would you keep them if you could choose? d. How do you make sense of the voices? i. Where do you believe the voices come from (God/spiritual source, deceased loved ones, government, media, self/soul, biology/genes)? ii. Do you find them relevant or random? iii. Do the voices have any relationship to your life experience? iv. How do you interact with the voices, if at all? v. What do the voices want for you and your life? 2. Tell me about the important relationships in your life. a. Who are the important people in your life right now? b. Who do you go to when you are hurting? c. Is the relationship reciprocal (or, does it go both ways, two-way street, etc.)? d. What happens when there is a disagreement? An argument? e. What is the best thing about your relationships? f. If you could, how would you change your relationships? 3. Tell me about your life in general. a. How do you feel most days? Would you say that you enjoy life? b. What is your current occupation? c. Do you ever experience difficulty taking care of daily activities?

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Appendix D—Participant Interviews Alice  Do you have any questions? o Nope, just interested in what you’re doing!  Okay! Well, I’m interested to know about your experience. And, you know, I’ve been using the term “hearing voices” and that’s a term that’s used in the literature quite a bit… o Uh huh…  …but I don’t know if that completely captures your experience, so maybe we could start by just you telling me a little bit about what you experience, and what you might call that…? o Okay. The voices I hear are internal, and they are, uh, it’s, so, I don’t hear from the outside, and I don’t actually “hear,” it’s a knowing more than anything, but I hear it clearly. There have been occasions in my life when the voices have come very loudly, warning me about something. But otherwise, if I ask a question, then the answer comes. So my frame of reference is that it’s Spirit, that I, you know, communicate directly with Spirit.  So spirit is apart from yourself, or—I wasn’t sure if you meant your own spirit… o Well, because I think that God resides internally, that we’re all one, then, i-it’s Spirit with a capital S, and I-I see it as God. But myself also, I mean, I don’t, I guess I don’t really separate them. So it’s not like it’s coming from somewhere out there. Uh…  Yeah, so I’m hearing… o …but it’s clearly in…it’s either information that I’m being given without soliciting, or it’s information that comes as a result of a question, or something like that. And very often when I’m doing therapy…if you do therapy, then you know that at that point when you don’t know what to say and then suddenly, this information comes out of me that I, I didn’t, I didn’t think to say, and so that is my experience also.  I see. So, you are conceptualizing it as coming from Spirit, capital-S Spirit, o Uh huh…  And this is an interconnected Spirit with God and with others as well? o Um, theoretically it’s with others, but my experience isn’t that the information comes from other. It’s, it’s Spirit within me and then I see that communicating things that I might not otherwise—because I can clearly ask questions and get the answers.

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 Now help me understand, you say you don’t really hear it in a way… o I do hear the words, but I want you to know it doesn’t, I don’t hear it auditorally.  Mhm, I see… o See what I’m saying?  I do, yeah, it’s hard—I think it’s hard when you haven’t had the experience, to relate, to really get it… o Exactly. But you know how somebody who’s psychotic and hallucinates will hear from the outside, but this is, this is from the inside, so it’s very different than—I mean, I’ve not had that experience, but I, I’ve had this, I’ve worked with people, of course, that were hallucinating.  Okay. So, you don’t hear any, like any specific kind of voice; you discern the words, but there’s no hearing component whatsoever. o No, there’s no external hearing, not at all. Even the couple of times that I’ve had clear, loud warning, it comes still from within. I mean, I don’t hear—like, I don’t have a command hallucination experience where, “Do that,” and it comes from out there where I’m looking around. I always know right where it’s coming from.  Okay, I see. And when you say “loud,” that would mean, like, the intensity of… o Intensity, exactly the right word.  I see. Okay. Would you say that, then, this voice comes from a single source, or does it seem to change at all, or… o Um…I have to say that I receive it as a single source, but I don’t consider it a single source. So, I’m going to differentiate that there are not other voices that come through. It doesn’t, I don’t get a deep voice here and a high-pitched voice here, I can’t distinguish gender…  Okay… o Um…. So, so I know that the information can come from several sources, but I experience it as one voice.  And how, how would you discern… o I can ask.  Okay.

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o I can ask, I mean, if it’s information that I don’t normally get, or it comes in a way or language that I don’t normally—like, syntax, that kind of stuff, then I can ask who it is, or I can ask if it is—for instance, if I think it’s coming directly from Jesus rather than the One Source, then I can ask, and either “yes” or “no.” I mean, I can figure out who it is.  Okay. And what sorts of responses do you get? o What does that mean?  So when you ask what the source is… o If it’s Jesus? Then I’ll say, “Is this Jesus?” and then the voice will either say yes or no, but see I experience that as an energy, so, um, I just can tell that the energy shifted and it’s not the same energy, so, I hear it as a voice, but I understand it to be an energy. So I see Jesus as an energy, and if I think it’s, um, Mary talking, or if I think it’s, uh, like, for instance, another life form, then I also, I just ask that.  Other life form? o Like, like if it’s, somebody fr—or, uh, somebody’s—some energy from, um, another planet, or something like that, then, then I’ll just ask that.  So it could be a non-human… o Yes, it is, it can be. Not often; I don’t do that very often, but it has been before.  So does it—is it typically Jesus or Mary or just Spirit, or… o Typically it’s just Spirit.  Just Spirit, okay. o Which I understand to be God.  Okay. Are there ever any angels or anyone else? o There are. Like, uh, I have an angel that’s with me all the time, Nahum, and he’s huge and with me at all times and he’s very, very instrumental in the healing work that I do, um…. But I’ve also had, I’ve had others—Michael comes, Gabriel comes, Raphael comes…um…I’m trying to think who else, to give you a better…. And the thing is, is that, I’m not Christian necessarily, but, the—I think what happens is I understand the energy of Jesus from being raised as a Christian, so, so—so when I, when I identify the energy, then it’s like all. Because I know people, in the Earth, who walk in the energy of Jesus, that are Jesus-like, have an energy similar. So, so

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that gets confusing, because I don’t really think I’m talking to Jesus, but I am getting information from that energy, which is distinguishable.  Right, so you’re sensing an energy that’s similar to what has been labeled as “Jesus.” o Exactly, exactly.  I see. Okay. When did you start having this experience? o You know, I started it early, but I didn’t know that. Because when you start really early with it, you think everybody does it, so, I did think everybody does, and I’ve had other people describe that to me. Um, so I first, um…I first knew there was something different about me when I was about, probably about, uh, let me think of a time frame here…probably about eight, or nine. And, I, I was out playing in a yard with some other children and I could not hear the conversation on the porch, except all of a sudden, I could hear the conversation, I could “hear” it. And so, um, that has happened to me numerous times in my life, and it’s always information that I can use, um…  So being able to hear something that you wouldn’t otherwise— o I wouldn’t—it magnifies.  I see, okay. o I had the exper—I was an exchange student to Poland when I was in high school, and there were two different occasions when the teacher would, um, started talking to the other girls, and it was a girl’s high school, and the teachers would ask in Polish, which I didn’t understand at all [laughs], would ask if they were, um, calling me and asking me to go do things, and were they interested in me, were they practicing English, and both times, it came through as clear as a bell in English, I would have told you, but it was in Polish. I knew what the teacher said. I knew what the kids said. And see, that was just really good information for me to have. First of all, that they were soliciting the other kids to be friendly, but also the students gave me infor—interesting information because they said that I was always with the other American girl, and they made several other excuses, so, so I loved those insights into my part in it, because I could do something about that, so. So that’s one of those times, and another time there was a drunk who came up to me, in Poland again, and I was at the bus station in Poland, and so then an alcoholic came up toward me, was

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staggering, he was a mess, and he started to get amorous, and so I just was panicked, I didn’t know what to do, and I heard, “Speak to him in English.” And I did, and he dropped the bottle and ran. So, so see, those kinds of things I pay attention to. And they help me a lot! [laughs]  What’s your understanding of what happened there? Did he understand the English, or— o No, he didn’t. I think he was so drunk, that when I started talking, I don’t know whether h—I don’t know what frightened him. He was frightened, and whether it was just the foreign language or—because I was forceful with my words, and I just started telling him what I would have told him in English had he spoken it, so I-I did that, and he dropped the bottle and ran, so.  And how old were you at that time? o I was…I was 18 when that happened.  How were you feeling at the time? o It was scary. It was very scary, ‘cause I grew up in an alcoholic home, and so I-I just stay hands-off all of that, and so, um, you know, that fact that—I think that’s what stopped me in the first place was the fact that, that he was drunk, so that got my attention right there instead of just being able to figure out what to do and then the voice just came through clear as a—clear as can be.  And you’ve mentioned a couple times the voice being very helpful to you. o Uh huh, uh huh.  Do you find that that’s typically the case? o Oh, um, yes, ummm, because those are the questions I ask, though, I mean, it’s never threatening, if that’s what you’re wondering, um, it’s always supportive. I don’t always like what it says, but it’s always supportive and in my best interest.  You don’t always like what it says? o I don’t like what it says if it tells me something about me that I don’t particularly like already, you know, and I just say, “Okay, I got it.” So, um, like for instance, if, if I don’t—if I mishandle a situation, um…then—then Spirit’s likely to point out how I could have done that differently. And sometimes that happens, later on, you know, thinking back on the session, um. Or, you know, with, with other relationships, that

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kind of thing, so…. Yeah, but I-I’d have to tell you that it’s a positive experience all the way around.  Yeah, it sounds like even when the voice is saying something you don’t like, it’s something that’s intended to help you out. o Yes. It’s about the intention.  Is it presented in that way, then? o Uh huh.  Okay. What are the words you might hear in a situation like that? o Um…like, they might say, Spirit might say, “You could have…,” much like I would say to a student of mine. [laughs] You know, “There’s a different way you could have tried that,” or “What are some ways,” but they don’t ask me questions—once in a while, they ask me a question to get me thinking, but mostly, it’s just really, um, offering, offering help.  Okay. Now how often—because you said that oftentimes, it’s you asking questions of the Spirit—how often would you say that’s the experience under which you are able to sense this energy, and how often is it something that comes to you maybe at a time when you’re in danger, or a time when you’re needing some feedback, or…? o Well, Emily, I have to tell you that I walk—my—I walk this experience, so there is no time when it’s not available. And so I am aware that that energy guides me without words also. So it’s a—it becomes a sensing thing than, rath—um, an intuitive sensing thing rather than hearing words, I’ll just be led to do something. Um, I had a recent, uh, experience…. [20-s pause] Oh—I think this will help you understand. I had, um, I’m seeing some clients in {CITY}, and so, I had somebody cancel an appointment, and what I now say is, I wonder why that needs to be available? That’s the point. And then, of course I get the call, an emergency, and that’s where it fits. So that kind of thing, you know, so if I’m told, “Turn right, and go down this other street,” then I just assume there’s something on this street over here, and I don’t pay much attention to it anymore, because, because I, you know, over all these years, I’ve tested it, and so it’s, I’m safe, I mean, there’s also that guidance. But those words will be…words are difficult in this discussion because it’ll just be, you know, “Turn right, and go down this alternate street.”

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 Knowledge. o It is a knowing, yeah, it’s much more of a knowing.  And it sounds like it isn’t really easily discernable from just the guidance you receive in everyday life. o It is not. It’s the same, yeah, it’s the same.  It’s not this discrete experience that happens once in a while… o No.  But there—it sounds like there is variation in intensity at times. o There is. Yes. Like, like that time at the school or that time with, with the drunk, it was—I mean it, then it becomes, you know, “Do this,” so. And I trust it, I mean, a hundred percent, it’s…it’s good stuff.  And you said that it, it seems like, you started noticing it around eight years old? o Yes, but looking back, it had to have happened a lot sooner than that. Um, and now, you know, from this perspective today, I can look back and see where my mother knew that there was something going on. It takes on a different timber than, than it had originally in that she just, um…I think she knew that—I don’t know if she knew that I s—that I talked with Spirit, but I suspect she did, and I suspect I was, like many little kids, much more free with that. Um, something interesting that happened is I grew up going to church and…I, I would tell you, today even, that there was no doctrine there, I was never burdened with doctrine. It was just a great, uh, you know, relational experience and it was family, and I just loved going there. And of course that wasn’t true, but look, look how I got protected from, from dogma, which allows me today to be m—you know, much more diverse in the way that I view Spirit and religion.  So that community was—sounds like a good relational experience for you? Friends, connections? o Absolutely, great! Yeah, yeah. I got out of going to church by working in the nursery, which was my love, I mean I loved being with it, you know, and it just—but look how synchronistic that is, I mean, it just all got set up for later when I would be doing this work and, um, yeah. It’s good stuff, I mean, that’s just, that kind of thing happening all the time.

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 And you said that as a child you just sort of assumed that everyone has this experience. o Mmhmm.  I wonder when that began to shift for you and you began to understand that not everyone has this experience and what that was like for you? o You know what, Emily, I really think that was a much older experience, I think—I don’t think I recognized myself as having it—having this relationship with Spirit different from other people until I was an adult. I mean, clearly.  Would you say adult as in over 18 or… o No, it had to have been younger than that, because I was at, uh, I was five when I had the experience of the porch, or, I mean eight, and um…yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know the answer to the question, isn’t that interesting.  One of the reasons I ask is because sometimes when folks realize that their experience is very different from others, it can be very frightening and they can have questions about, you know, is this okay to have? Why aren’t other people having this? It can be a time of confusion, and I wasn’t sure if that had happened for you or if it was just like, oh, is see that other people don’t have this experience, and it wasn’t a big deal. o I think it was, no, I did not have the negative experience at all. I didn’t feel bad about it. I think it was a gradual understanding of the wisdom that comes through that that I have that other people don’t appear to have.  Okay, I see. o So…but at no time—I mean, yeah, really. Never. Never was it a negative experience.  How many folks did you share this experience with? o Oh, hundreds. Because I, I teach, so, I use those examples. And I work, I have a healing practice that I do with another woman in {CITY} one weekend a month. And then my own practice has been very spiritually-based for decades. So, um—and there’s nothing about it—I-I’m choosy about where I choose to say this information, and in a situation where I don’t think it’d be well-accepted or—either well-accepted or alienating me fr—alienating people from the message, then I am careful. Like, I’ve been doing some instruction at {UNIVERSITY}, I’m very careful about what I say in that setting. It’s a {RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION} university, and um, it’s very

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straight, like most universities, very straight. And so, I’m very careful there. With my students I’m a little freer, but I’m still very careful because I know they’re going to go back and, and talk about what Alice said and all that kind of stuff, and I don’t want that to impact them and I don’t want it to impact me either, because then I won’t have access at all, so. So I’m careful in that way.  Have there been times when it hasn’t gone so well? That you’ve shared it with someone, they have not treated you well? o Um…I would say that would happen more on an interpersonal, uh, really personal interaction rather than when I’m teaching because I, um, I grew up—or I lived many years in {TOWN}, which is, um, a small community, and so, I was, I had a private practice, I worked for the community mental health center, so I was careful there. Um…so I would, I would hazard a guess, we could find out, but I would hazard a guess that in general, people would not know this about me.  Okay. And it sounds like the folks you have shared it with have responded well? o Yes, have responded well. Yeah, because they’re all trying to figure out—the people that I’m talking about that I share it with—are trying to figure out who they are and how they wanted to be and what their relation is, many times to their religion rather than their spiritualities, so yeah, personal stories help a lot. Plus all my friends are like this, so.  All of your friends sense energies and…? o Yes, exactly, yeah. One of my dearest friends is an energy drawer, she draws the energy of people and then Spirit downloads what the drawing is actually about, so. So those are the people I hang with, so, it’s not unusual there.  Okay, so I feel like I’ve got, if not a good understanding of your experience, at least maybe as close as I can get having not had the experience myself. And I’m curious to know more about the important relationships in your life right now, and you mentioned some folks that are friends or colleagues of yours who also have similar experiences? o I have—I’m divorced, and I’ve been divorced for about ten years, after 31 years of marriage, so there’s no relationship there. But I have two children, um, and my one daughter works for {COMPANY}. Um, and my other daughter is in {CITY}, she’s a {PROFESSION}, and she’s currently working on her doctorate. And, uh, then I have

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five grandchildren, so that’s highly significant for me. And then, friend-wise, um, I would tell you that I have, I have a lot of friends, but I have a couple of really close friends. And I have some friends I’ve had since high school, so, um…. Like, one, one of those people is um…pretty straight and narrow in her religious views, and so that’s an area we avoid. And I don’t even know if she knows who I am in that area, because we just don’t talk about it, we go to other things. And then I have all of my people in {CITY} are like me, so. I’d have to say I probably—{NAME} is a very good friend, she’s the energy drawer. And we’ve been friends for a long, long time. Mm, the person that I do the spiritual healing with one month—one weekend a month, we’re quite close as well, and of course we’re totally on the same wavelength. In fact, she channels; that’s part of the work that we do.  Channels the Spirit? o Channels Spirit. Yeah, she’d be—if you’re interested in this, she’d be fascinating to talk to. She’s amazing. So that’s where it is.  And, you know, “close relationships” mean a lot of different things to different people. I think for some, someone that you consider “close” is someone you would have fun with, and for others, they might consider, who can I go to when I’m hurting, that kind of intimacy. For some people it’s some combination of that, or some additional component, so I’m curious, for you, what constitutes a good and healthy relationship? o Um, I think, I think it encompasses all of that. Somebody that, um, I can check things out with, on the earth level, and somebody that, um, I can have fun with as well. I’m actually planning to move to {CITY} eventually, and part of that is to increase my social, um, network, because I live in a really small town in {STATE}, and I don’t hardly know anyone there, because the whole purpose of locating there was, it was between my grandchildren and {CITY}. So, it wasn’t itself the destination.  So you chose to live there to be connected to others. o Yes! Yeah, both directions. And I, I uh, honestly think that the last probably four years has been purposely isolating because there were just, there were just things I needed to learn and, uh, I needed to do this work with my grandchildren, and that’s ended, clearly ended, so um, I am, I know myself to be a mentor and to be a teacher, and so I get clear information when that’s over. Okay, you’re done there; on to

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something else. And it’s never—it’s not like Spirit says, “Okay, now you have to go to such-and-such a place and do such-and-such.” It’s just that “That’s ended,” which opens the door then for new experiences. That happened when I was working at {HOSPITAL} as I worked with families and patients, and it was a fabulous job, but one January, boom, it was done. And so I always ask the question: How long do I have? Because my experience of Spirit is if, they say it’s done and it’s time to go on to something else, then—then if you hang around, bad things begin to happen. I mean, relationships fall apart and, people start to get contrary, so I’ve learned to move. So, but I can always ask, “How long—do I have until April?” “Yes, you have until April.” So, that kind of thing, where—and then I can go about my work and I know what I’ve, what I’ve got, and, and that, you know, I’m okay until April, I’ll continue to have the same effect, but that I need to be making plans. So that’s what happened at {HOSPITAL} is I was done. And then I was moved here—or, to {STATE}, um, by May, so. And then it was the right thing to do, it was time to work with the grandkids. And then that ended last year, um, at the end of the summer, basically, and so, then it’s the move to {CITY} is the primary thing, and getting a practice started there.  And, you know, hearing about the way that you were guided by this energy, I wonder if you ever have an opportunity to experience any confusion or uncertainty around anything. o Oh, I am a basket case in the middle of all that frequently, because I’m not real crazy about the unknown. I change pretty well, but I, I don’t move well, and that’s been proven many times, and so, um, oh yeah, I have angst in the middle of it. I follow—I follow what I think is guidance, and then, it’s left to me to figure out all the pieces, so that’s anxiety-producing. So, I go kicking and screaming sometimes, but I go. And it’s always been the right thing to do, always, even though it causes consternation and anxiety and, you know, just, [slurred vocalizing], so—but I do it, and I know—I trust that, so I know that’s what to do, but all of the details are mine, so.  I see… o Oh yeah!  So it sounds like you get enough guidance to know the direction to go, but it’s up to you to figure out how to make it happen.

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o Yeah—well actually, they end it. They say, “Your work is done here.”  Okay. o Okay, and that always means there’s change coming. And, what I decide to do after that…if it isn’t a [unintelligible]—like, let’s say for instance that I had decided, “Well then I think I’ll move to New York City because I like the city, and I’d really like to be there.” Well, it would fall apart. There just wouldn’t be any way that would happen because this is what I was led to do, and have done so much healing work in that space. And it’s done, and so, I know that the move to {CITY} is the next thing to do, but how that’s going to happen, where the money’s going to come for it, and where I’m going to live, and, you know, where I’m going to have an office, and all of that is, is up in the air. So, it’s not neat and tidy. [laugh]  I see. But it sounds like if you were to attempt to go against, or do something opposed to where the energy is guiding you, it just, it would not work at all. o It wouldn’t work.  All the pieces wouldn’t fall in place. o It wouldn’t fall into place.  I see. o Uh huh.  Whereas, if you’re going in the direction the energy is guiding you, there’s some anxiety about how am I going to get these things done, but they, they will fall into place, is your sense. o Yes. And the thing I know about Spirit is that they, they see “end here, start here.” So there’s very little space in there, and working it in the earth is more difficult— that’s what I say to them all the time: “I’m in the earth, remember I’m in the earth!” And so, it takes longer, and it—there are more logistics, so, they would have had me moved by now, really. Because they don’t have to worry about how I’m going to pay the rent, where I’m going to get an office, all that kind of stuff. “Just go! You’re needed there!” “Okay, I’m going! But it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be—there are some details here.”  So when you say “in the earth,” it sounds like that has to do with practical limitations of being a human.

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o Yes! That’s exactly right, that’s exactly right.  Okay. o If I was going only in Spirit, then I’d’ve been there, but unfortunately it’s a little, little daunting as a human to get all those things in order. Yeah.  Okay. I think I’m starting to get this! o Good, good!  It’s—I mean, it’s just such a fascinating experience you have and something that I think is…I don’t know if it’s foreign to other people’s experience as much as, just a different way of understanding experience, or something that one taps into that other folks might have trouble tapping into. I wonder how you might see that—do you see this as something that you have access to due to some characteristic of you, or something that everyone could have access to…? o Absolutely. And, you know what my experience has been with, um, with children, there’s no doubt, they can tap right into this, um, but with adults, what I find out is that they’re closet Spirit people—that, that they’ve had these experiences. Unless they come from a family, you know, if you have generations of, let’s say women, for instance, who are real intuitive and, you know, they, they talk with Spirit and they, and it’s a line of discussion—those people fascinate me—then that’s, that’s different, because it’s acceptable, it’s in the line. My mom did it, my grandma did it, blah blah blah blah blah. But if it’s somebody else that, that h-has not—doesn’t have a family history of it—that they know of—then, then you find out, it’s fascinating how they already know this, but they can’t call it. They can’t act on it, they can’t call it, they can’t tell anybody. “If I told my husband, he would just have a fit,” um, “He wouldn’t believe me,” all this kind of stuff, so. Isn’t that sad? I mean, that’s truly sad to me, that they have, they have that rich experience available, and they already know it, but, but they’re hiding. And I know that experience; I mean, I’ve already told you that there are places where I don’t share that information either. But um, but these are—yeah, everybody can do it. Everybody has access.  That sounds like it would be very painful to have that experience and to know that that’s not going to be validated. o It’s very hard. Very hard for people, right.

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 I wonder, if you don’t mind my asking, was this something you felt you could share with your husband when you were married? o What I did is I, I—yes, I think I probably did, but we, we didn’t share it in the sense that we did it together, or that we, you know, had that, um, and I didn’t—  But you could tell him about it? o I could. I could. And, it’s kind of like my daughter; h-he, like my daughter, sort of depending on me to uphold the spiritual realm for the family. You know, it was okay if I thought that, but, but there wasn’t any joining or coming together. Um, I mean my daughter once made the statement to her children—they were quite a bit younger—and she said, “You don’t argue with your grandmother because she’s doing great works in the earth that none of the rest of us know anything about, but we believe she’s doing it, and so we respect her for that.” [laughs] So it’s, it was that kind of, that, that kind of acknowledgment, uh, but not joining, so, so there’s that. And, and I have a lot of clients who have that same experience. But I’ve had a lot of clients who are so staunch in their faith that they can’t, can’t live in faith when they don’t have, they can’t take a risk, because they really don’t have faith. You know, they have a lot of dogma, but not, not the “walk off the side of the cliff and you’ll— there’ll be a ledge” or whatever. You just have to trust, so, yeah.  And when you say clients, these are energy therapy clients? o Actually, they come to me for psychotherapy.  They do, okay, I see. o So I can, I can be straight if I need to. Or, um, we move into, um, we move into this realm, because that’s where people are hurting. I think all psychotherapy is about grief, on some level, so that’s, you know, that’s where it goes.  So how long have you been a psychotherapist? o Well, I’ve been in psych mental health my whole career. But I started working as a therapist one-to-one in a mental health center in the 80’s.  Okay. [pause] Okay, I’d be curious to know about…just your life in general. How would you say you feel most days? o I would say happy. I’m content most of the time. I have, I have easy access—I don’t, I don’t experience depression more than, um, oh maybe I’ll find a day where, you

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know, my mood matches the greyness or something but that’s not very common for me. And I don’t experience anxiety on a clinical, in a clinical sense. What I do experience is just, you know, this, this limbo that I’m in right now, moving and that kind of stuff, but I’m not fretting over it, uh, because I-I’m taking steps, I’m saving the money I need to save, and I’ve increased my client load, and I’ve got this teaching gig now in {CITY}, so I’m taking steps, and so, see I don’t have a lot of sitting around in my own dirty bathwater, as my ex-husband would say, so. I have full range and…yeah, no, not so much, not depression.  Kind of sounds like what you say about the anxiety is that it feels proportionate to what’s happening, that you’re transitioning… o Yes, definitely. And I really, you know, clinically we understand anxiety, but fretting is what I do more than anxiety [short laugh], I mean, I don’t have the, I don’t have the physiological reaction or anything like anxiety.  So it’s more like worry thoughts. o Yeah, it’s just worry, yeah.  And certainly with a transition, you know, that would make sense, because you don’t know all the details. o Yes. It’s appropriate to the—yeah, yeah, I like details. I mean, I like to know where I’m going! [laughs]  Yes! o How I’m going to get there!  Those are nice things to know! [mutual laughter] o Yes, those are!  Would you say that you enjoy life? o Yes, I would say I do. I guess I would tell you that I really feel, uh, blessed, and honored to be here. I had a conversation before I came into the earth this time, I had, um, as much conversation as you have when you’re in Spirit, which is not verbal, but I, uh, spoke directly with God, telling God I had really no desire to come back again. That I’d been here, done that, and I didn’t want to come again, and God said, “Well, you don’t have to. Of course you don’t have to.” And [sigh], tricky. “And, uh, there’s going to be a time, a specific time and place where I really need you and your

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specific gifts and energy in the earth.” Um, I said, “Okay! Alright!” I mean, how do you say no? So, uh, I have that memory, and then the next memory I have is, uh, in utero. And, uh, then I—which was very, very important to the life I was going to lead—live here.  So this first one was before you were born? o Uh huh, before I was conceived even.  Okay, and so you say, “coming back,” so, you have a sense of being here before. o Yes, multiple times.  I see. o Right, right. So, um, so in that way, I can tell you that I, you know, I am, uh, honored to be here, and, and um, I have no idea really—I-I guess I have to tell you that as an adult I’ve always lived my life in that direction then, knowing that, um, you know, I have those, I have, I have ugly things that happen, I’ve done ugly things, I’ve been really human. And that’s something I’m going to talk to Spirit about when I get back is I’m going to say, “What—why couldn’t I not have been, you know, have just a nice easy life, if I was coming back for this purpose?” But…  So you mean when you leave this human life… o Yes, when I leave this, this body and go back to Spirit.  I see, okay. And you have the sense that you will come back, or is that up for debate? o I don’t—it’s up for debate! [mutual laughter] It’s way up for debate! Yeah! And I’m an endlessly curious person, so I, I just really, I just am fascinated just by the whole process of humanity and, um, you know, my understanding of the grand proportion, is a way to put that, it’s just, everything that we experience is on a much bigger level than we realize. I mean, it’s kind of like the, the butterfly wings here affects Japan, you know, it’s that, it’s that theory where we have no idea how impactful we are on a much grander scale. And I think that’s—I just think that’s interesting and I think it’s awesome.  The interconnectedness… o Uh huh, absolutely.

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 [pause] I’m looking at my list here and it sounds like we’ve covered quite a lot. Is there anything else that you feel is important for me to know, maybe that we haven’t gotten to or maybe I haven’t asked in the right way? o I guess I wanna know, um, how this, uh, how does this type of voice fit into—you must also interview people that are psychotic, so what do you do with that in your dissertation? I mean, how are you, what are you doing, how are you doing that?  Well, you know, I think part of this experience for me is trying to get some clarity for myself about these kinds of experiences, because it’s very different to read about it and then to talk to folks. So certainly I’ve talked to folks who have been my clients who have heard voices and have been diagnosed as schizophrenic, and I’ve just, I’ve noticed that, it can be really difficult to tell on the basis of symptoms what’s going on inside of a person and whether or not the experience is helpful or harmful, or how much of each, you know, sometimes it’s a combination. So, I guess I’m trying to gain clarity for myself of, you know, what is this experience about? How does it vary from person to person? Is there a way in which the experiences can be very similar, whether the person is experiencing distress or not? Can the experience of someone who is able to discern some voices or energy, can knowledge about that inform work with folks who hear voices and are distressed by them or experiencing voices as a result of distress? Are the experiences related? Um—and I would add that I’m not going into this inquiry with the thought that I’m going to pathologize folks’ experiences who aren’t experiencing any distress— o Right, right, absolutely.  But, more in the direction of the folks that are experiencing distress and are very stigmatized for their unusual experiences, can we find a way to normalize that and understand that [unintelligible]. o Absolutely, absolutely! I have an acquaintance who’s sixteen years old and um, I’ve seen her maybe three times, I’ve talked with her, and it’s very interesting, because she’s highly spiritual, I mean, she’s, she has a hierarchy for the way she, um, she, she sort of diagnoses the information that she gets, and the decisions that she makes out of that and how she sees—her ability to study and understand humanity and human beings individually is breathtaking. It’s amazing. And had she not—I, I got her through another therapist who knows the work I do, so… we both know that had she

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gone to somebody who didn’t have these insights and didn’t know about this, she would be medicated,  Yep. o and she would be labeled very crazy.  Yep. No doubt. o Um, so she comes to me, and all she has to learn to do—I mean, all of this is a hard job, but, she has—s-she gets now to be normalized and she also can learn what to do with the information and how to, how to put boundaries around it, because that’s what I find is a lot of people who have these gifts don’t know how to put the boundaries around it, and so I have another woman that I’m mentoring that, that has no, I mean, Spirit can come in and give her information from all over, wherever, and it’s vital, and it’s not crazy material that she brings through, but she’s doing it 24/7, when she sleeps, all the time. So a person has to learn how to put boundaries around that to help Spirit understand the difference between being in Spirit where things happen like that, and being here, where we drudge through everything. And once that happens, once a person realizes that they can put boundaries around that, and have a more normal existence in the midst of that, it makes such a difference. It’s just a—i-it’s amazing what happens.  Does that relate to, um, I remember when you said that you’re having to tell Spirit, “Well, I can’t move yet, because—I’m getting there, but…” o Absolutely, that’s the boundary.  I see, okay. o Yeah, “I understand what you’re saying, I’m committed to the process, I agree that’s what happens next, and you’ve gotta back off. Because I have to raise the money to make the move and to be able to survive until the practice is up and running. So, you know, it’s like, “Back off!” They do. They do. Because they just, now they’ll nudge once in a while, so that I don’t get complacent, which I’m able to do. So, um; but that’s the boundary, that’s a boundary, is “I have to run this from this side; you’re going to have to trust me this much.” So that, that’s wonderful.  I wonder how you would understand someone who is maybe hearing voices that aren’t saying very pleasant things?

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o Well, my experience of people who channel or bring through negative spirits, like this one gal I’ve started mentoring, she way courts the dark. I mean she does, she’s always looking for entities in people, and, and that happens and that exists, but, um, and what I’m trying to help her learn to do is to increase the positive and thereby decrease the negative instead of focusing on the entities, on the darkness, and all these kinds of things. But that’s a newbie, that somebody that doesn’t have very much experience that she would try and get rid of that instead of increasing this to overshadow, increasing the positive, good energy to overshadow the dark. So…  So is she connecting with something other than Spirit, or… o No no, it’s the darkness, yeah, I mean, in the earth, there’s a polarity, and for the sake of the discussion it’s good and it’s bad, so if we have this good, then there is it’s negative. I mean, Sandy Hook is an example of the negative. Right? I mean, there’s nothing okay about that. And the young man who, who did that, I mean, the question is, is he a personality disorder and a psychosis, or a psychosis and not, I mean, you know, diagnostically where are you going to go with that, because any of us who have ever worked in mental health, you do it, you work with people who are darn scary and who, who have these things that happen to them…that the question always remains, do we have any control over that? I mean, can we shift that ourselves? There’s, um…oh I just lost my train, what was I going to tell you? It was really…it’ll come. So um—oh, I know, I was going to tell you, when I was, uh, working on my master’s, they have a psych emergency room and a medical emergency room, or they did at the time, and so, I worked, uh, when I was going to school I worked part-time, and this woman came in, and she was from one of the more fundamental religions, and she and her husband came in, and they had come from church, and they, the woman was in a room, and they were giving her Haldol and trying to bring her down, she was psychotic, and I went in to see how she was doing at one point because we were monitoring of course, and so I, I just looked at her and I said, “Are you absolutely sure this is the only way that you can get relief from your situation?” She cleared, and she went, “I’m absolutely positive.”  Wow.

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o And then she went right out again. And it wasn’t like she was putting it on, she didn’t—she wasn’t pretending to be psychotic, and she didn’t go back to pretending to be psychotic. But she cleared in that moment, with that question. And went right back on again. It was—I mean, obviously it stayed with me, it was amazing, because schizophrenia and other psychoses are just things that I’ve always been so fascinated with, because it can’t not be a chemical reaction but which is the egg and which is the chicken?  We’re biological beings. o Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And environment—I mean, in her case, the environment was just intolerable. She had too many children, too young, and…yeah, so.  So it sounds like even her experience—it sounds like your understanding is that it’s adaptive for her, it has meaning to it. o Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And I remember having another woman in my practice early on, um, who came from a family, a family of schizophrenics, I mean, people in that family were, were pretty sick. When I got her, uh, she was in her, um, late twenties, so it wasn’t onset, it was later, and um…she was bright and just, and just, I remember going to my, my supervisor and saying, “This is sad.” I mean, you know, she’s slipping because—you know what, there were no alternatives. There were no alternatives for this one but to join the ranks. And I watched that happen to the point where she actually lost her—her thought abilities and her problem-solving as that happens. It was amazing, and—and what caused that, how did that happen? You know, how did that…yeah, just…. You know, it’s like generations of welfare people, it’s just learned behavior—as well as some chemical, unknown chemical thing that goes haywire.  An old professor once said to me that schizophrenia runs in families the way that speaking English runs in families. We learn from one another. o That’s right, exactly. Uh huh. Yeah, I think so too. It’s fascinating, it’s always just been so fascinating to me. I’ve always been so grateful that I went to all of this through nursing. Because it brings a component in of, of the biological component,

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um, and knowing that so well, you know, and then, and then bringing it all together— it’s been, it’s been a fabulous combination.  Well, and to have the experience that you have, I mean, like you said with that one client, where if she was seeing anyone else, immediate drugs. o Absolutely. Yeah, they’d put her in the s—in some facility and drugged her up and…. And her mom is amazing because her mother has abilities as well, and she caught this very early on, she knew what she was dealing with, but she didn’t exactly know what to do about it because this child’s abilities go beyond her mother’s abilities. But her mother, her mother knew enough to see who she was. And so she’s protected her from this system forever, just for the whole time she’s been growing up, and she’s only sixteen, so, you know, I just, I have so much respect for her for, for realizing—and, and having the wherewithal to, to take care of it and to protect this child. And she’s also extremely bright, but of course she doesn’t do all that—she does fine in school, she’s on the honor roll, but she’s brilliant, um, and it’s too distracting. I mean, that’s part of learning to set the boundaries, she’s way too distracted, because she can hear people talking from their minds, she knows what they’re saying. Now that’s, you know, that’s a curse, to—as well as a blessing—I mean, it’s mostly a curse, really; you don’t want to know what people are thinking. Not all the time.  Did that occur for you? Did you have a period where you had to learn how to set the boundaries, or did that come more easily for you? o Um, no, I think I learned to set the boundaries trial-and-error. I really did. I mean, I knew I needed to set them and I went about doing that. Um, and the other thing is that, philosophically, I’m a live in the moment kind of person, so, so I think that helps a lot in setting boundaries. You know? Because if you live in the past, of course, or the future, either one, they’re both not here, so. I really do think Gestalt training is very helpful and um, you know, looking in the present moment will get you where you need to go quicker than anything else.  And it sounds like, for you, there’s never been a sense of—and correct me if I’m wrong—it sounds like there’s never been a sense, “If I don’t—if I were to put this boundary up,

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something bad will happen to me,” or, “It’s not okay to put this boundary up,” it sounds like that wasn’t your experience. o Yeah, never ever my experience. No. No. And if, um, and if everything, if all, all of the people that we see—and ourselves included—if our negative experiences are a result of grief, uh, for whatever reason, then that, that puts a whole new spin on that negative piece, doesn’t it? Because it’s like somehow we allow that to manifest into something separate from ourselves. So that’s kind of interesting, isn’t it?  Tell me more. Something separate from ourselves… o Um, for instance, it grows. Okay, let me put it this way: if prayer in this direction makes really grand and wonderful things happen, the negative thought, whatever we want to call it, grief, in that direction makes that grow. You see what I’m saying?  Focusing our energy in growing that…. o Right, exactly. Well, and we all know the experience of one person in a group being really, really depressed or negative affects the energy of the whole group—I mean, it happens in the opposite way too, but, so look how powerful that energy is, and I don’t think we can deny that. But on the other hand, we don’t need to court it. We don’t need to invite it in.  So, accepting that it’s there [unintelligible]— o It’s there. Yeah, absolutely.  Well, again, thank you so much! o You are so welcome!  If I have any follow-up questions, would it be okay for me to get in touch with you? o Oh please! Yeah, absolutely! Hundred percent.  I’m just so grateful for your being willing to come talk with me. o You are so welcome. I’m fascinated by what you’re doing. I’m glad you’re doing it.  Thank you. o ‘Cause that’s a question that [sigh] is a very good question.  I think it’s something a lot of people are afraid to ask. o Yes, I agree with you. Yeah, I don’t think they want the answer.  Yeah, I think it’s threatening. o Yeah.

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Barbara  So, like I said, not everyone finds the term “voices” helpful; it doesn’t necessarily fit everyone’s experience. So, maybe we could start by you telling me a little bit about what your experience is, so we can figure out—or you can tell me the term that you might use for what your experience is. o Okay. Well, I call it talking to my spirit guides.  Okay. Spirit guides. o Uh huh. And usually it’s one, but sometimes, or once in a while, it’s a different one or [unintelligible] but usually it’s one.  Okay, and do you hear a response back from your spirit guides? o Um, I usually get yes and no answers. So um, partly because that’s how I, how I learned to initially communicate with the spirit guides was by asking questions and getting yes and no answers and knowing that response, but usually it’s that way. Once in a while, if I, um, I’m going to say focus, but be unfocused, so, so try to kind of blank my mind out so that I’m not letting other stuff, or trying to imagine what’s going to be said, then I get—like yesterday, there was—we were trying to figure out somebody’s new spirit guide, and it’s like, the name Estelle just came to me, and it’s like, “Oh, okay!” So sometimes something like that just slips in.  Mhm. Is it something that you hear through your ears? Coming from the outside? o No, I, I would call it, I hear it in my mind’s eye.  In your mind’s eye. o I know that sounds like seeing it, ‘cause—and some people see it, but I actually hear it in that way.  Does the voice have a particular gender, or pitch? o Well, no, no, it’s just a, it’s just very calm, um. Th-the spirit guide that I had recently is Jesus, so it’s, you know, I think in those terms when I’m communicating, but it doesn’t really have a—I mean, it doesn’t sound like what I would think Jesus would sound like, or what…no.  What does it sound like?

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o Well, it’s just a, it’s, it’s a know—I would call it as much a knowing as anything. It’s just like, like when this word comes in, it’s like, just like, okay, I knew it was Estelle.  So it’s—there are words that come through, but they don’t necessarily sound like a voice, like you would hear my voice. o Right, right.  It’s more a word and a message that comes across, without an audio quality to it? Is that right? o Right, right. Mhm.  How long have you been able to—sorry, I want to use your term [paper shuffling]—how long have you been able to talk to spirit guides? o Mm…probably six, seven years.  What was happening around the time that started for you? o Uh, I had begun to do energy work, and learned how to use a pendulum. To um, I thi—a lot of people think that the energy of a pendulum is your energy moving the pendulum. I w—what I was taught, it was that you were communicating with a pendulum guide. So that’s how I got started with the yes and no answers. So I communicated with a pendulum guide, and then, as I’m doing energy work one day, I thought, oh, I can get those same answers and, and just pay attention, and I get the same answers, so I didn’t need to do the pendulum one way or the other. And then, it’s like the more I paid attention, the easier it was. Just developed from there.  What led you to seek out or discover the pendulum work? o Um, somebody taught me, they were kind of exploring it and taught me how to use it and it was like, oh my gosh, we can get information this way, so why not? [unintelligible]  So what was your reaction to that, when you first started to communicate with spirit guides? o It was challenging because we both had to get on the same wavelength, so to speak. Uh, and, um, and then doubting that what you’re getting is real, or true, or right, or I’m not influencing it, or whatever. So, so it’s, it was all part of a

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practice, or a getting better at it. And eventually, like I said, I moved to being able to get the answers without even using the pendulum.  Mhm. Tell me more about getting on the same wavelength. o Well, um… when I first did work with the pendulum, um, I-I guess the use of it felt rather chaotic, because I didn’t get what I—it’s just a feeling as much as anything—like, you start out asking, you know, Am I 22? Or whatever, definite—which you know is going to be a “no” answer, and, until your energy kind of meshes with that particular being’s energy, you maybe don’t get correct answers, or you don’t interpret it correctly. So it’s about, it’s about getting yourself out of the way so you’re not controlling what’s happening, really is what it is, so the energy can flow.  Is that, like, just a trial-and-error process, or is there—? o Pretty much so, until you, until you get the—I say until you get the feel of it.  Okay. And before six or seven years ago, you had not had any experiences with being able to— o Right, right. I-I knew people who did that, but I, you know, it was not my—it was like, that’s for them, but that’s not mine to do. And now it’s like, oh, I’m really glad I do this!  Who else besides Jesus have you been able to communicate with? o Uh, Saint Francis and, uh, Archangel Michael. Um…and, once in a while, Mother Teresa of Calcutta. And, um…trying to think, Estelle, yesterday, is a new person. Um…so most of the others are just, like, once or twice, um. There was someone specific I was working on that they maybe had a piece of information for, so….  And you said usually it’s you approaching them to get a yes or no answer? o Mhm.  And you said, but you said that every once in a while, one will either reach out to you or give you information like “Estelle,” the name. o Well, when, when I’m doing healing work for someone, you’re often looking for information about that person’s healing. So, sometimes part of the healing is, is something that they want to tell that person. So, in this case yesterday, it was

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about having a new spirit guide, whose name was Estelle, so it was like, okay, you’ve got something else to say, now we need to figure out what it is. Since I only do mostly yes and no answers, it’s sometimes challenging for me to figure out what their additional information is, but sometimes they say, “Yes, we have additional information,” and then you puzzle around and—or I try to get really quiet so that I can let a word or whatever, sometimes if I get a word, I can figure out a phrase, and I can say, “Is this what you meant?”  And you described getting really quiet—it sounds like it’s hard to be in touch unless it’s something that you’re really seeking to be in contact with. o Well, I don’t find that they, that, that I just stop in the middle of the day and, um, you know, have information come. I mean, I know people who do that, but that’s not how it works for me. So, so it would be that generally I am seeking the information.  Okay. So it’s not something that’s ever intrusive, or coming from nowhere. o No.  It’s something that you’re deliberately, with intention, seeking. o Right, right.  I see. How do you understand Jesus and Saint Michael? I know there are a lot of different conceptualizations of who these folks are, and I’m curious to know how you view them. Who they are, what their nature is… o Well, Jesus is a being who lived here on earth, and actually is just like us in the sense of being a child of God and, Jesus has said that “you can do the same things that I can do, and even greater,” and I think he knew that we are all divine. Jesus is divine, but so am I, so are you. We’re all divine. Um, Michael the Archangel is an angel, which is an energy from the divine that is created to help us. So, all the angelic energy is created to help us and, I don’t believe that angelic energy— at least as I understand it—is, um, it’s all one big unit, pretty much, and we get what we need from that unit, and sometimes it looks like a kind of traditional Michael the Archangel, but, you know, it’s more an energy than a…than a being.  Mhm. Is there any such thing as unhelpful energy?

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o Well, I think that people can attract unhelpful en—and I’ve experienced unhelpful energy, yeah.  Tell me about that. o Well, um, you know, anger, I mean, can move people to do very positive things, but if you’re angry with me and send angry energy to me, I can feel that. I mean, you walk into a board room and you can tell what the energy is. So it can be really positive, or it can be very unhelpful. That’s how I experience it.  So would you say it would depend on what, what you’re open to? If you open up to… o Yeah, if you open up to people’s anger, you know, you—and don’t have any boundaries, you’re going to take all that in. I’ve worked with lots of people who can’t, can’t go to church, they can’t go to work, because they take in everybody else’s stuff, so, it’s really important in the work I do that I don’t take in other people’s stuff, otherwise you’d just be stuck with all that. So, so with, you know, if it is—were in somebody’s home, and, uh, the people who live there have had an argument, an unhelpful kind of argument, you know, that energy is there. And do we all want to pick that up? Of course not. So, you know, you think of all the fighting that goes on in the Middle East, I mean, the energy there has to be terrible. And, you know, I ask that the angels go in regularly and clean that up, you know, like, and take that energy and change it to good, and make it at least more possible for people to—for, to have something good happen, for people to make good choices. Positive, helpful choices.  So would angels be the ones who guide and channel different kinds of energy? o Um…they could. They could—they maybe wouldn’t be the only ones. I think angels, angels’ role is to assist us, whatever that means. And I think there are other beings who assist us also, but I think angels are, are given to us, to love us and to assist us, in a whole variety of ways.  And you said there are other beings as well? o Well, like Saint Francis, Jesus, and whatever it is, so there are other beings who help us out. I think a lot of times, there are deceased grandparents, um, people who continue to help us from the other side.  So other human beings?

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o Mhm. Well, formerly human beings.  Formerly. o I mean, people who have crossed over.  Okay. When folks cross over, is it—do they ever come back? Or, do they die once? o Oh, I believe in reincarnation, so people come back, have multiple lives. Actually, I think more so what happens is people live parallel lives. So they’re all going on at the same time.  Hm, so one person could be alive in many different bodies at once? I see. o Mhm. Because we are divine, we can, we can just, we can do all kinds of things that we don’t let ourselves believe that we can do.  That’s another question that I have. Do you, do you believe that this ability you have to be able to ask these questions of the spirit guides, do you believe that that’s something that anyone is capable of, if they would try and work on it? o Yeah. And wouldn’t be afraid.  And wouldn’t be afraid. o Mhm.  So fear could block the process. o Yeah, yeah, or saying, “My church says I can’t do that.” Well, you know, but fear within ourselves and, like, um, rather than exploring things, that could be really…  So you wouldn’t think it would be unique to any one individual? o I don’t think so, I think like, uh, some people might be, uh, what I would call a clear channel, or a, you know, people who have done this most of their lives, so they’re more open, or, you know, some people are better at math, some people are better at spelling, whatever, some people have a greater gift. And I don’t think, I’m not the, one of the best channels, in the sense of being able to do it easily or get more, most information. There are a lot of people who are a lot clearer, so I’m, I figure if I can do it, anybody can do it. If they want to. And that’s the piece; if you choose to.  You said—I think you mentioned one time to me before, that you used to be a sister. Was it here that you were a sister? o Mhm.

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 For how long were you a sister? o Uh, 42 years.  So you must have joined… o Right after high school, so I graduated from high school and joined here in September.  So right after high school, you came and joined the convent here. What led you to join? o Um, well, I knew I wanted to go to college and I couldn’t figure out how to go to college, um, having no money, and I wanted to be in the middle of action and what I saw about the sisters from grade school and high school, that they were in the middle of what’s going on, and I wanted to be there.  The middle of what was going on? Tell me more. o Yeah, it—well, in a parish or in a school or in, you know, so I grew up on a small farm and didn’t get to participate in lots of stuff that went on in town or in the school or in the parish. So being in the middle of the action was what I was looking forward to.  You saw how involved they were with a lot of activities. o Mhm. Right, and I liked what I saw them doing, and [unintelligible].  Tell me a little bit about what led up to you leaving the community. Would you mind? o Um, well, the church does not like people—does not think doing energy work is a good thing to do. So, um, the sisters here supported me for years and years and years in the sense of, you know, um…loving what I do and encouraging it and— actually, I’m sure they got lots of letters from the bishop about what I did and they were really good about that, but I just decided I wanted to be really free to be my own person, and not have to worry about, um, what was coming down on the sisters, so I decided to move out on my own, doing things in my own way. And to the max, what I could do, and not try to keep this cover, kind of, over things, which I wasn’t really doing very well anyway, so.  Did you find that your religious beliefs shifted over the time—from the time you joined to the time you decided to leave? o Definitely. Definitely.  How so?

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o So, so the things that the church teaches, I don’t agree with a lot of it, and so, so, stepping away from that belief system, uh, you know, at first you think, oh, I’m going to get struck by lightning, and then you get through that, and you think, oh, this stuff doesn’t make any sense, I’m a happier person if I let go of some of these things and really stick with my true beliefs. And then, uh, then of course, if I really stepped away from the church, it meant I needed to leave my family, which is the sisters, and it’s like, okay, once I get brave enough that I could see all that and do all that, then made that choice also.  How much contact do you keep with the sisters? o Well, um, I come back, I’ve probably been back on campus six times a year or so, to come back and work a day. Um, and there are several individual sisters that I keep up with as friends, so, um. But I feel like what I’ve done—I was trying to even think about that this morning—um, it’s like…it’s like I haven’t really left—I mean, officially, all the paperwork, that’s all, I’ve left. Um, and I don’t, I don’t feel like I belong there, that I can be in buildings without permission, even though I still know all the combinations of all those things, it’s like, I don’t belong here physically. But, I belong to this grouping or this energy, but I’ve gone way beyond that, so, so it’s kind of like going from this smaller grouping to a universal energy, is how I think it is. So I still feel connected, but much bigger, if that makes any sense.  I think so, I feel like that makes sense. So what other relationships would you say are important to you, in your life today? o Well, certainly my friends, uh. My mom died recently, so that is a loss, although, um, she’s been disabled for quite some time, so you couldn’t really be in a relationship with her in the same way. I have a sister that—one sister that I’m really close to, and two other siblings that I’m, I’m sort of close to, and, um. So that, those are all good—I have lots of friends, and actually, I, I keep telling people that this—this is my second full year, I’m starting my third year in {STATE} since I left the community—that I have friends now, locally. So, that part is just really, really cool—people that you can call on, or a number I can give

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my sister in case she can’t get ahold of me so that she doesn’t have to panic, and, those kind of things, so, um, that feels really good.  Could you tell me more about those friendships and what they mean to you? o Well, the one—two of the people are part of a book group that we started together, and so we talk about metaphysical kinds of things, the books, and particularly the spirituality of, of metaphysical things, so that’s really wonderful. Uh, another that is just a delightful relationship is someone who’s co-owner of a massage/acupuncture clinic, and um, the two women let me work out of there, and the massage therapist has just brought all kind of clients my way, and uh, it’s just been fun to get to know her. And, her sister, who doesn’t do that kind of work, but I met up with her, and so, so, those kinds of—so actually, they’re more women friends than anything.  In your experience, what makes a good friendship? o Oh, people who, uh—well, I don’t think anybody, uh, at least in my experience, can be everything for you, so it’s about having people who offer different kinds of things. Like the woman in the book group, or just—they’re willing to talk about the kinds of things that I’m most interested in, um. I-I like to have people to go to concerts with, so that’s a really fun thing. Right now, I don’t walk so well, but I would love to have a hiking part-partner, somebody who would love to hike and do conversation while we do that. Um, so I think it’s about, uh, sharing stories, and um, you know, somewhat being, if need be, having someone be open enough to do things for you that you can’t do yourself or, you know, I had people to come water my plants while I’m gone or, whatever, those are just really—I know those are, kind of start with the small things, but um, I think it—is, is relationships go back and forth, so you can depend on people, they can depend on you, but then you have this social thing of the interaction that happens.  Mhm. And the way you spoke of these friends at first, I kind of got the sense that this was a really exciting time for you to have these friends close by. Does this feel like a new development, to have friends this close? o No, it’s a new development in {STATE}.  In {STATE}.

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o So it’s like, to go through your first year and think, gosh, I don’t have kids in school, and I, I don’t have a job where I’m making friends; how am I going to meet people? And the first year or so—actually, being in transition, actually the first six months maybe—I didn’t really develop any rel—what I would call helpful relationships. It was kinda like I was there, you know, go to the library, go to the senior center, go to the book shop, and, you know, it’s like, okay. And then, I began, I met {NAME} and she introduced me to some other folks, so things began to happen. And after the first year, then, more like, okay, there’s potential here. And then in the second year, it just felt like, oh, I have people I want to invite over to dinner now! Or I have people that I want to do other things with. So, so it’s the first time, maybe, I’ve observed so clearly, how relationships develop. Still have—you know, like, I didn’t feel on my own, necessarily, because I had—I mean the phone is a wonderful connection, so, I had lots of friends that I would—who would call me and I would call them, so we have that whole relationship still going, so I didn’t feel isolated or deserted or that kind of thing. But to have friends where I was, that was like, developing that whole thing. And it’s, it feels like I belong there!  And you said that you, you work as an energy therapist, and that’s full time that you do that? o Mhm.  How many hours a week would you say? o Mm…uh, except when I’m on the road like this, but otherwise, maybe ten—so, I always say I’m semi-retired.  Semi-retired, yeah. o Um, but it—it’s wonderful that it’s worked into being an adequate income. And um, then when I come to {STATE}—well, when uh, while my mom was here, it made it possible for me to visit her, to have the money to pay for the gas to get here on a relatively frequent basis. And now I just get to come because of my friends, but I love, I love to travel, and I love connecting with people. I’ve connected and actually I’ve built some new relationships in the energy work since

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I, since I’ve moved away, people contacted me and said, you know, “I hear you do this, will you set up something?” So that’s pretty cool.  And it sounds like you found that the voices have been—not voices, but talking with spirit guides has been helpful for you in a lot of ways. o Certainly, it has been helpful for my personal development, my personal healing as well as working with clients…  And being able to connect with others? o With other people? Well, certainly to help connect in their, uh, healing process. The thing is, with spirit guides, you don’t ever ask a spirit guide something about someone else unless you have their permission. I mean, it’s like, you don’t, you don’t um, you just, it’s just not right. Uh, so, and actually, they don’t answer you; they would tell me, “It’s none of your business.” So, um, so, I’m not quite sure what your question was there, or if I answered your question…  I guess I wonder, I wonder how many other folks you’ve met who have also been able to converse with spirit guides, and that’s— o Well, a lot of folks that, that are one, you know, kind when you get on an energy workers’ circle, you begin to meet folks, and they begin to talk about that, and actually, when people came for class, there were people who, who heard voices or got messages, and they never talked to anybody about it, because they thought it was a bad thing. And then, when it, when I said, “Well, it’s really okay, tell me what you know,” it’s like, “Oh my gosh! Somebody’s really willing to hear this.” So there are lots of people out there who hear messages.  Have you ever been troubled by the experience and wondered, “Is this okay to do?” o No.  I mean, I hear you saying that a lot of people have felt that way and, based on the research that’s a quite common experience. o Right, and, and part of it, I think, comes out of, you know, when kids—I-I think, you know, kids who have imaginary friends, I think they’re real. I think for a lot, they’re real. Jesus can sit on the edge of their bed, they can see that, or they see their grandparents who have crossed over, whatever; I think that’s real for them.

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And so, at some stage, they’re told, “You’re too old for that.” You know? And so, we scare it out of them, I think.  And sometimes folks have found a lot of great connection being able to talk with others who have similar experiences and not have that be stigmatized anymore. o Mhm, mhm.  I’m curious, the folks that you’ve talked with who also are able to talk with spirit guides and get information; have you found that their experience has been similar to yours, or th- there have been some differences in the way they receive information? o Well, there are those who, um, have received information all their life, I mean, from a little child, or they might have curtailed it for a while because they thought they shouldn’t, and then, it’s like, it keeps coming back. So there’s that difference. For some, they get…uh, I would call it whole sentences or messages, in, in more words. There are some who get their messages or their information in symbols rather than words. So they kind of, you know, it fits together sort of like a story board, so does—is how I imagine it, I’ve never actually seen it, but that’s how it feels like it’s described. So that would be a difference, um. Some people I, that I’ve known, had more than one person wanting to talk to them at a time, so they had to set up a, you know, only talk to one person at a time, so you set up some rules. Um, so there’s differences, yeah.  I wonder if you’ve ever met with anyone who’s been diagnosed with something like schizophrenia or psychosis or something of that nature. o Uh, I have.  Have you—do you conceptualize that as something different or something that’s pathological, or are they tapping into something…the way you might… o Well, I have, uh, an inconclusive opinion about that, I guess. Uh, my thinking is that, for some folks, I think, um, it’s…uh, uncontrolled knowings or spirit guides or, you know, you don’t set any boundaries. Or, they’re so connected on the other side, that they’re not here mostly. I think with autistic kids, a lot of kids who have trouble in school, I think they’re out there someplace and not, they’re not grounded here. Um, but I also…I mean, there could be people that are connected

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pathologically and, you know, they’re really imbalanced actually at some physical level, so that, so I’m kind of, I think it can go both ways.  Have you ever sought any mental health services yourself, or ever felt that necessary? o Well not for the voices, if that’s what you’re, the question you’re asking. I have done, uh, some counseling and psychotherapy in the past, yeah.  Was it helpful? o Um…I don’t really—I don’t think so. I think what I needed to do is make this decision about being in the community or not, so, so you have this, you know, you’re trying—I learned a lot about myself, so in that sense it was helpful. But overall, I was looking to be a happy person, and I kept thinking, “Why?” And even when I started doing energy work, you know, used to talk about this, you will experience joy, and I’m thinking, “So what’s wrong with me?” And what I— clearly what I know now, because I know what that joy is, it’s like, I had to make choices that were best for me, and not try to fit into someone else’s way of doing life.  So it sounds like the biggest turning point for you was making that step, and making that transition. o And then all the others made sense. Okay, I was never going to get it if I didn’t make that choice.  Mhm. How would you say you feel most days now? o Uh, I look forward to every day. I enjoy life. My life feels really simple in a lot of ways, but I feel like every day is an adventure. I get to do things like I’m on a ten-day road trip now, so I mean it’s all kind of familiar. But all the people I meet, you just don’t know what’s going to turn up. It’s just very fun.  Would you say that sense of happiness is pretty consistent? o Very consistent. Mhm.  I wanted to make sure I get to all of my questions—I have a guide here— o Yeah!  —because I get wrapped up in folks’ stories, and sometimes I forget everything that I’m wanting to know! Let’s see…. I wonder if at any time that you’ve been in touch with

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spirit guides, if your attitude toward them has changed or varied at any point, or if they’ve always seemed helpful and peaceful? Has there been any variability? o Nope, it’s always been helpful and peaceful. Yeah. Mhm.  Okay. And I guess just to know a little more about, before you started doing your current work, you were part of the community, and I don’t know much about community life and what that entails. Could you tell me a little bit about what your daily life was like when you lived with the community? o Um, well, actually I-I didn’t live all of my life at the community.  Okay. o So, whe—when we moved in, we went to school, we worked in the kitchen, we had a schedule. You know, we had daily prayer and that kind of thing. And then I moved to {COLLEGE} for a year. And then I was in {CITY} where I started teaching school for two years, at an elementary school, and then moved to {CITY} for, that was three years. I taught middle grades and junior high. Then I moved to {CITY} for three years and taught at an inner city school there. Then I moved to {CITY}, and I was working on a master’s in, um, secondary administration at the time, so I got moved to a high school, and in the middle of the school year, the principal got sick, so I ended up taking over, which was pretty interesting. So I did the high school for another—for three, or, two and a half years. Uh, and then they closed the school, so we had that whole process of closing the school. And, um, then when the school closed, I was asked to do a job for the community, which was director of our lay associate program. So, people who wanted to connect with the community, but not enter and take vows. And so I got to travel the country and interview people, which was really exciting, and develop programs, educational programs for people as they began to connect with the community. So that was lots of fun. And then—I did that for about five years—and then, we opened up a farm on the outskirts of {TOWN}, and I did that for about nine and a half years to get that whole development started. So, so the schedules were different every place I was.  It sounds like throughout that time, you were very active and very busy.

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o Yeah, actually, uh, it was very hard for people when I left the community because not only did I do lots of what we call ministries for the community, but I was very active within the community. It wasn’t like I was over here and isolated and non- communicative in that kind of way. So, it was a, it was a big deal. It was a big thing.  It sounds like you’ve always been moving around and connecting with new folks and— o Well, and I think that’s, that’s—I’ve always wandered, I’ve physically moved my living space a lot, but I’ve also done lots of different jobs, and administrative kinds of things are what I like to do best, so you can do that in so many different arenas, I think.  Mhm. You’ve lived a very full, varied life. o Varied, it is varied—and it’s, actually, that’s part of it, with leaving the community—I got to do so many wonderful things as part of the community that I can’t imagine what I would have gotten to do. You know? So, it’s like, do I say no to this when I don’t know what’s out here? And yet, now that I know, it’s like, okay, there’s even more out here for me—may not be for everybody, but that lightening up and just being who I can be, that’s just really good.  Did you feel that that was something that you felt led by the spirit guides to do, or…? o Yeah, actually, I had finally let myself hear from them enough to move forward to that. Mhm.  So you were opening up to hearing—or to sensing where they were trying to guide you. o Mhm.  And you were willing to make that choice to, to go with that. o Mhm.  What would have happened if you had said no? o Well, it’s my belief system that even the ankle problems I have now is a result of not making a decision to move forward. Foot and leg trouble is often about not stepping forward in life where, going where you need to go, and I believe this is a result of some of that, taking too long to step forward. So, it would have just gotten worse, and I would have continued to be an unhappy person. I can look around and I can—I mean, it’s a judgment, but I see an awful lot of unhappy

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people and, you know, I have friends that I know stay in marriages because there’s money there, or they have financial security, or, you know, whatever. And you can see, uh, you know, they’ve done a lot with their lives as well, but they are limiting themselves. So I’d be just like them. I would have limited myself. Now, would I be terrible? Would I be rejected by God? No. But, uh, I would have limited who I am.  And it sounds like you’ve noticed a way in which it feels like there have been some physical ramifications. o I believe—I mean, in the work I do, I teach people that, so, you know, it’s like, oh! This happened to me! [laugh] Yeah!  So, is it, is it painful to move for you? o Yeah, sometimes it’s painful. It’s stiff and painful. The cartilage is gone in my ankles, so I’m—we’ve done lots of work with several different practitioners to get what caused the cartilage to be gone, to have that process stop. And then, um, to re-establish cartilage and synovial fluid and all the things that grow in your joints and whatever, so. So, we’re just rebuilding everything! It’s pretty, it’s pretty exciting, on the one hand, although I get tired of it sometimes.  Has there been some improvement, then, for you? o Yeah, I feel like there’s been improvement. The, the challenge is the painfulness, or the aches, have changed in how they feel, so it feels like the nerve endings are rebuilding, and so of course that makes it possible to experience a little more pain. And—but it feels different than it did before, so yeah.  If you don’t mind my asking—you know, of course, let me know if it’s not okay, but— I’m wondering, do the doctors have a medical explanation for what has happened, or a biological explanation for— o Well, they would, I mean, they call it arthritis.  Oh, okay. o So—but, some doctors look at arthritic conditions as the same as allergies; so you’re, so you’re system is attacking itself. And there are processes out there to reverse those attacking processes, and that’s what we’ve been doing, is sto—it’s

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like allergies, so you’re stopping the allergic reaction. Uh, so that my body’s no longer attacking itself.  And it sounds, I mean, even the medical explanation sounds very analogous to what I think I’ve heard you describe, about blockages in energy— o Mhm.  —and how that affects us physically, and, the body attacking itself seems like such a good metaphor for us not being open to letting the energy flow the way it needs to. o I think, I think I just did a really good number on my body, yeah! Yeah. So I’m happy to be able to move forward—actually, in a lot of ways, I feel younger than—in the last three years—than, you know…. So that’s pretty exciting, so, I figure my new mantra is, I just love my 19 year old body. [mutual laugh] So, so I’m counting on it!  And it sounds like, the way you’ve described what has happened to your body, it’s more of a cause-and-effect type thing, something that you have done, and not a punishment from some outside source, o Right, right.  but rather, something that has— o Yeah, I don’t believe God punishes. I don’t think that’s…that just doesn’t make any sense to me! That God would punish us. I think we’re here to learn lessons, and we have some challenging things happen to us, and we can react one way or another to them. But that God punishes us, that just doesn’t make any sense to me.  I think…those are all the questions I have, and I wonder if there are any questions that you have for me, about this process, or the project? o I-I’m just—no, I really don’t have a question, I’m just curious how it’s going to unfold for you, because I know that oftentimes when people start out on a dissertation project, as it unfolds, it’s like, oh! Maybe I’ll do this other little avenue or part of it, so it’ll be curious to see how it unfolds for you, I think.  I’m kind of curious myself! [mutual laughter] I mean, it really is interesting because, you know, I’ve read a lot of literature about—well, whatever you want to call the experience, because you know, there are certain, some groups of people who use the

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word “hallucination,” which I don’t like because it really invalidates the experience and makes it seem as though it’s something that’s not real somehow. o Mhm.  And that it’s something that has to do with there being a problem. And there’s another set of literature that talks about—usually they use the term “hearing voices,” um, but they’re all, all different ways to talk about folks sensing things that other people can’t sense, but having a respect for that and understanding that that information is meaningful and relevant and doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything wrong. It can be something that’s very positive. So, it’s been interesting for me to talk to folks and hear about these experiences, who—for me and for folks who don’t have these experiences, or perhaps haven’t been open enough to them to receive them—trying to understand how that works, and what the experience is like. So it’s been fascinating for me to hear what people have experienced and, and things that I could not have imagined myself, because I, I haven’t been there. So I do appreciate you being so open and willing to share with me, and what your experience has been. o My pleasure! It’s nice to help out, and I think it’s, a lot of times, people doing the kind of research you do that moves this stuff forward, so.  Thank you so much for talking with me! o You’re welcome!

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Candace  Thank you, first of all, for agreeing to meet with me, I really appreciate it, I know your time is valuable. o Well I’m really intrigued, so.  Do you have any questions about the project itself, or curious about anything? o Uh, no, but will you, will you share your, uh, will you publish what you find, are you going to share it or post it?  It’s going to be my dissertation. o Oh, great.  So, I can certainly let you know when that’s done. I don’t know when that’s going to be, but I can keep you updated! o Yeah, that’d be great.  Okay. To start off with, um, I’d like to just get an idea of what you experience. I use the term “hearing voices,” and that’s often what’s used in the literature, but I know that doesn’t always fit everyone’s experience. So I’d like to hear from you what you experience and what name you give to it. o Well, I usually call it hearing things.  Hearing things. o Because it’s not always voices.  Okay. o So, um…yeah.  So what do you hear? o Well, sometimes I—well, I’ve had a few different—you know, I actually meant to make a list of the, of different experiences I’ve had. Um, I used to be really scared of the dark when I was little, and I would just hear, like, you know, like footsteps or scratching or that kind of stuff. And so I still kind of hear those. And then, um, when I hear a noise like that it sounds like—I feel like all of a sudden a tunnel opens up and I’m really close to the thing, even, even though it’s far away, it’s like, sometimes I hear um, kind of like a white noise all of a sudden pops up when, when I, like my hearing’s opening up really wide.  Uh huh….

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o And um, uh, so there’s that, and then um, I’ve also heard, uh—well one thing that I’ve had since I was a little kid is, um, I would like set my mental timer before I went to sleep, and then in the morning I would hear a really loud voice just go, “Candace!” [laugh] And I’d look over and it would be the time I was supposed to wake up!  The exact time?! o Yeah! Or it would be, um, I had that experience when, um, I had been out with my cousin and we’d been drinking and we’d been up all night and I was supposed to catch a plane, so instead of going home, I just went straight to the airport and slept on the floor in the airport! [laughs] And um, I was just completely, uh, passed out on the floor, and I heard, “Candace!” It’s just like a shout in my ear, and then I, I jumped up and they were boarding, boarding the airplane! [mutual laughter] So.  So this is when you were an adult, then. o Yeah, it was when, yeah—it still happens to me sometimes, I just hear it, I’ll hear a shout, and um, it’s so vivid, that sometimes I wake up and I’m not sure if the sound I heard was a real sound or if it was an imaginary sound. So sometimes I wake up and I’ll be like, man, I just woke up to this huge clap, but then, I realize that actually something fell down, so.  Okay. o So, but it’s so vivid that I can’t distinguish it from—I mean, I can in a way because there’s no explanation for the sound,  Right. o but in terms of like—it really does feel like I’m hearing something.  Mhm. And the voice saying your name, does that have, like a specific gender, or sound quality to it? o Yeah, I think it’s a, I think it’s a male. It’s definitely a deep voice.  A deep voice. o Mm, I don’t know if I can say it has a gender. But it’s a deep, very commanding voice, and—yeah, maybe it’s a male voice.  And what you mentioned is that coming about when you need to wake up?

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o Yeah, it’s like, it’s like a warning or something. Like, “You’re gonna be late,” or—sometimes, like, if I—I’ve had experiences, especially when I was a teenager where I didn’t set my alarm right or I had put the snooze on, and I need to get up for class, and I would have this sort of noise—it’s not always a voice. I mean, the, the ones that I remember the best had a voice [unintelligible, with laughter]. Someone just called my name! [mutual laughter] But yeah, if—but I heard, like, a clap or a sound or some other kind of noise like that…  Okay. Is that almost always, like, when you’re asleep, or does it happen, like maybe you’re working on something during the day and you have an appointment coming up, would you hear it during the day? o No. I have never had it when I was awake. What I’ve heard when I was awake is um, I had—I actually call it my haunting, because I really felt like I was haunted! [laughter] And um, it was when I was living—actually, it started when I was living in India, and I just was seeing things in the, in the house. And, there was a period when I was seeing cats, and then there was—and it actually started to make me really believe in ghosts [laugh], which seems kind of ridiculous, but it was in In—only in India that it happened that I really saw these vivid cats in the house.  In one place? o The cats? It was always in the kitchen. Did I ever see…have I ever seen anything except in the kitchen? No, I always saw—so the cats were always in the kitchen over by the, uh, back door.  Uh huh. o And they—again, they were so vivid that sometimes a real cat would go by and I’d be like, “Did you see a cat?” Or was that—‘cause they’re so, like you could s—I could see, you know, this was an orange cat, or this was a black and white cat, so vivid. And then, um, later, uh, when I went back to India again with my kids, I saw a little girl in my house. And, the first time that I saw her, um, I thought it was my daughter. And I was just like—I turned around and I said, “{NAME}, you’re supposed to be in bed,” and then, and then she was just gone, and I realized that it wasn’t {NAME}.  Huh!

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o And then, um, when I lived in Nepal, I had, um, I had this experience where I heard—I associated it with that little girl—but I heard someone saying, “Mama.” And it was very vivid.  Hmm… o And it was, that was only when I was in the bathroom. And so this thing, “Mama! Mama!” And, um, and it, uh, I remember once when my son was calling me, and I thought it was that voice.  Uh huh… o And then I was like, no, that’s actually [unintelligible, with laughter] maybe he came into the bathroom or something, but it was just, like, such a vivid sound. And again when the, when the sound came, then my ears would open up and there would be this white noise that would come behind it, like, like all of a sudden I was listening much more closely to everything.  And how long would that experience last, the white noise? o Um, until—you know, it would come with, like, the hair would stand up on the back of my neck and everything, and it would be just like—and then as soon as my nerves went down, then my hearing would go back to normal.  Okay. o So it was definitely like a nervous, like, you know, sort of adrenaline feeling.  After you heard the voice? o As I was hearing it.  As you were hearing it. Okay. o [laughter]  And it sounds like these have been times when you’ve been sure that that hasn’t come from an outside source. Like, you’re sure there weren’t actually cats in the house. o You know, I actually, eventually I got cats, and, um, when I got the cats, I was like, if I hear anything, it’s the cats. [laughter] Because really, it’s scary to have that—I mean that, that was really terrifying. I mean, before it was just the, that it was in my mind, but, you know, when I, like, the waking up, I was like, well that’s just my mind telling me something. But this really felt like it was something that was external to myself and it really scared me [short laugh].

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 You mean the cats, the seeing things, or— o No, the—the cats actually in the house never bothered me. That never scared me, I don’t know why. It was just like, that’s strange, I just saw a cat, and yet the door was closed! But with the, the sound and with that little girl in the house, it was really terrifying, and I don’t know why.  What was going on in your life around that time? You had children at that time? o Mhm. Yeah, I had kids, and um—well, you know, I thought through it a lot and talked to people about it and, um, I actually—now, this is going to sound really crazy, but I’m going to tell you anyway—um, so the first time that I saw her, it was soon after I had taken a trip to this shrine in India, and um, it was the shrine of the saint that’s known for, um, women, helping women with fertility problems. And it was only a couple years later that I, that I m—and I didn’t know why—and first I thought, maybe the saint was following me or something like that, when I was trying to, like, figure it out, and I was asking my friends who were knowledgeable about, like, Indian saints and things like that. Um, but I had, I actually had a miscarriage when I was in India, which had been—and that was like six or seven years before that.  I see… o And so then, much later, I thought, oh maybe it’s the ghost of this being that was supposed to be born and then she was in the atmosphere somewhere, and then going to the saint, I was reunited with the—so then, I’ve sort of created this other story about it. Are you, are you going to connect my name to this? [laughter]  No, I’m not! o [continued laughter]  No, it will be completely de-identified. And it doesn’t sound crazy to me, I don’t know if that helps at all. o Okay, okay, that does help. I mean, um, it’s just, you know, just strange experiences that, that you have, and then, and then, I just try to integrate it in whatever way, um. But yeah, so then I felt—and I think I carried that with me for a long time. Because let’s see, I went there—it was definitely like a high-stress time, and I wasn’t sleeping a lot. And I know that when I don’t s—when I, when

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I’m sleep-deprived and I’m using, like, lots of caffeine and lots of alcohol, things like that, that I have…oh my gosh, there was this one time when I was in college when I was studying for this organic chemistry test, which for some reason, I thought that I would just not study all semester and then cram it in a couple days before, and I had been up, I think, for, probably like for three days with only, like, an hour or two hours of sleep at a time.  Wow… o And I don’t know what I was thinking! What was I doing? [laughter] Just bizarre things that I did to myself at that age. And um, I had heard this song, and it was this really creepy techno song that my brother had given me, [laughter] and it was running through my head. And I was working, and as I was working, it shifted from, like, I have a song stuck in my head to I’m hearing this song to this song is blasting in my ears. And, um, and it was, it was literally like, I was plugging my ears, but I couldn’t keep the song out. And it had this line where it was like, [vocalizes wordless, repetitive portion of song]—and I’ve never listened to this song since because it was so scary! [laughter] It was like, [vocalizes wordless portion of song].  Oh my gosh, wow! o So that was pretty much the result of [whispers] taxing my nervous system. So, yeah, I guess at that time, I was under a lot of stress, and that probably—yeah, that probably had something to do with it. There were problems with my husband—yeah, and I was kind of, yeah, not healthy sleep cycles and everything, so.  If you don’t mind my asking, I’m curious what your process was with the miscarriage that had happened seven years earlier. Had you taken time to mourn for that; was that an issue at all for you? o You know, it was, um, it was really traumatic, and it wasn’t so traumatic in terms of, like, losing the, the pregnancy, or losing a baby that was coming, that was not really a part of the trauma, but, um, for some reason, I was, I didn’t want to have—I have, like, a fear of going under and anesthesia, I was really worried about that. And um, so I thought once I—I had had a screening that showed that

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the bab—that the fetus was no longer alive, and it was supposed to be removed the next day, but then I started bleeding. And when I started bleeding, I thought, um, it would just go away by itself? But I was three, three months along, so I guess that it doesn’t work that way at that stage in the pregnancy, but I didn’t know that. It was my first pregnancy. And um, so I just stayed at home and kind of waited for it to be over by itself. And I just bled, and bled, and bled, and bled. And I was lying on my couch reading an article for my class, and then at some point I got up to go back to the bathroom because I was just going through pad after pad—it was completely, again, it was just like stupid [laughter], stupid mistakes of youth. Um [clears throat], but then, I got up to go to the bathroom and I fell. I just passed out. And then I woke up and I was like, I’m bleeding to death! [laughter] I’m sitting here bleeding to death! What am I doing? And by that time, I couldn’t, it was, I could barely get to my phone, every time that I—my head was above my heart, I fell—I passed out again.  Wow… o And I finally managed—I, you know, I was trying to call people, I couldn’t get— and I finally managed to get ahold of my husband, and he said, “Oh, I was going to pick up some tomatoes on my way home. Do you need anything?” And I was like, “Just come home!” [laughter] And then I just passed out!  Oh my gosh… o And he found me like that, just like, blood ev—it was awful. And there were no ambulances where we were living, and so, we didn’t have a car, so it was like this whole, like, carrying me and slipping in—it was awful. It was just awful.  Sounds terrifying… o And I don’t know if you’ve ever, God forbid, you’ve ever had severe blood loss, but it’s this feeling of, like, such a profound feeling of hollowness, of just being— it was just, I was like, my life is slipping away. [laughter] I can’t believe I’ve allowed this to happen! And then afterwards, I’ve always thought of myself as like, a survivor, like I’m s—physically strong and, and I was like, if it weren’t for modern medicine, I would be dead! Just from having sex! [laughter] I never thought of myself as a non-survivor in nature, so anyway. So it was sort of all

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those things that was the trauma. And it did, it did take a long time to sort of work through all that stuff.  Yeah. Sounds like it was a moment of feeling extremely vulnerable— o Vulnerable, yeah.  —when before you had felt so strong. o Yeah, it was, yeah, it was maybe my first confrontation with mortality.  Mhm. That’ll do it. o Yeah. So, um—but I didn’t, when I first saw her, I didn’t link it with that. At first, you know, I, I remember I got really depressed during one of my weeks in, um, that semester after that miscarriage, and um, a girlfriend of mine said, “Do you realize this is your, this is your week of your due date?” So, and I, she said, you know, maybe that’s why you’re—and I hadn’t really thought of it as, you know, I hadn’t thought of why I might be just feeling down. But it wa—sort of that moment was passing—so anyway.  So it was the moment of your, it was the anniversary of your due date, not the anniversary of— o It was six months later, so it would be when the baby would have been born if I hadn’t miscarried, yeah.  I see. Now what about the hearing—you said you heard “mama” at some point? o Yeah, that was, that was later, that was, I guess maybe a year after that, yeah.  Did that coincide with anything that you know of? o [to self, quietly] Was anything in particular going on when that started? I mean, we were just, everything was in such crazy flux. I mean, the—‘cause we, we lived here, we lived in New York, um, I had my daughter, my husband and I separated, I had my son, um, he was 18 months old when we moved to India. And then, things were weird with, uh, my ex and I were talking about getting back together, and all this sort of strange stuff. But it ended up we didn’t. And then we moved to Nepal—so it was like, all of this, yeah, it was just a lot of t—and we moved, you know, of course we had two international moves in the course of a year and half, so.  So you were living nearby your hus—your ex-husband—

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o Yeah, my ex, yeah.  Were you maintaining any kind of relationship with your hus—ex-husband, or…I mean a friendship, or— o Co-parenting, yeah.  Co-parenting, I see. Okay. But it sounds like a very complicated situation. o Oh yeah, oh yeah.  Wow. o Yeah, it was, it was odd. It was really, really odd. [laughter] So.  Do you find that hearing and seeing things tend to coincide with periods of high stress in general? o Um, I-I’m not sure, but I would tend to say yes. Yeah, definitely. Because when I, I think when I don’t, you know, I’m feeling stressed out, then I don’t sleep as well. When I don’t sleep as well, I start having all—seeing all sorts of weird things. I mean, when I’m driving down the road, and I start to get drowsy, I see things on—all over the place on the road, just like, animals and, you know, all sorts of things that aren’t there. [laughter] So.  Help me understand what it’s like to see these things. Is it something that is just there in a flash and then gone again, or is it something that kind of lingers, or… o Um, sometimes it’s, usually it’s something that’s sort of in my peripheral vision, and then I look over, and then it’s not there, or I—usually, I recognize it as something, something like, there’s a wolf by the road, and then I look over and it’s just a collection of trees. So I’ve always thought of it as I just have a really active imagination [short laugh], so I see, I see concrete things where there’s just shadows.  Okay. o Um, so there’s a lot of that. But then, but then when I’m in the dark, when I’m in the pitch dark, then it’s like a whole circus show.  Yeah? o It’s just like, um, and there are very specific, um, like themes, there are certain things that come again and again, so it seems like there—it sounds so silly to try to describe this! But there was this one, um, and this is just this year, there was

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this one particular, um, this, like a balloon-headed, blue balloon-headed man with a long tail—um, not a body, just the head and the tail—come, and like, be around my face [motions with hands around face]. And um, a friend of mine, who does like, energy work, she-she’s like empathic, and she suggested that I just, kind of imagine winding him up and putting him in the compost pile in the back so he could grow into something nice. And I did that, and then I didn’t see him again! So you know, there was these sort of, I guess mind games, whatever. But this one—you know, but sometimes it just, like, it’s just like there’s stuff in my face.  Do they say anything to you? o Um, that one didn’t sa—if I, if I say someth—this, this is going to sound really strange—  No… o No, you’re talking to other people who have these experiences, okay. If I talked to them, then I can, sometimes I can get some kind of information.  What might they tell you? o Um, that guy, I never talked to him. Um…uh…I’m trying to remember…there was a, there was a lady who I saw who was in a minivan, and she—oh yeah, I remember what she said. She said, “Stay upstairs.” I was just, I was like, so I— okay, so this, this came when I was sort of like meditating in the middle—like, falling asleep, and I saw this person—it was not like she was in the room, it was just a very vivid, like, um, kind of like being in a dream, except that I was awake.  Okay. o And then, um, I asked her her name, and she said her name was Jo. And then um, I asked her if she had something to tell me, and she said, “Stay upstairs.” And I had something else that I asked her…oh, I said, “What am I supposed to do” about something…and she had this kind of [dismissive facial gesture], she had this—okay, so those are just, that’s just…but it was like a replay, so she kept saying it—saying the same thing again as if it was like a little tape and it was being played again and again.  Stay upstairs? o Yeah, stay upstairs.

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 How old were you? o That was last year! [laughter]  That was last year. o That was last year. I mean, when I was little, I used to have a whole fantasy life that [clears throat] I was unable to distinguish from reality. So I would tell these stories about something that had happened, and then I would get part-way through the story and realize that, wait a minute, I’ve never been to France, or something like that. Like, I’d realize part-way through the story that it hadn’t happened. So I was just, I was described as being very spacy when I was little.  How did others respond to you? Parents, teachers, friends? o Um, I, I remember that when I was little, I had—they were trying to diagnose me with autism, I think—because—  Really? o Well, I was just really quiet, um. I always scored well on tests, but I um, I didn’t do my assignments, that’s what it was. I could never keep on top of [clears throat loudly] what the assignments—first they thought that maybe I wasn’t seeing the blackboard, so they were testing my vision, but my vision was fine. Then they thought maybe I, I had a hearing problem; my hearing was fine. But I was just kind of in my own world, when I was little. So then they took me in to, uh, to test me for learning disabilities, and they said I didn’t have any, any learning disabilities. So.  Did they refer you for any kind of psychological services? Did they seem to think that was necessary? o They didn’t seem to think it was necessary because, you know, when I sat for the test, you know, they’d give me flash cards and I said the words, or whatever [clears throat]. I mean, I vaguely remember these tests, and I scored very high on IQ tests, so they felt like, um, I should be able to perform in school, but I just wasn’t, I just wasn’t going with the flow of the class, so. I wasn’t turning in homework, I wasn’t, um, I didn’t have my books—everything was very disorderly. So I was flaky, it was a really profound flakiness. And then I kind of, I remember kind of emerging from that in about fifth grade, and being like, ohh,

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they’re workbooks, we have to do a worksheet in it each night! You know? Sort of being grounded in the, in the necessities of each day, you know.  How many other people in your life knew about you hearing things? o Um, I don’t think I ever called it hearing things when I was a kid. I don’t think I ever called it hearing things.  Did you call it anything in particular, or was it just part of your experience you didn’t question…? o Well, I know I had an imaginary friend, um, that I talk—that I had a very active life with this imaginary friend, and um, and my parents were [clears throat] always willing to listen to the stories, they thought they were cute, so, um. So I remember feeling like I could talk about sort of my fantasy life with my parents a lot, um—  Did you view her as imaginary at the time? o I did, I viewed her as—well, I don’t know. Actually, I don’t know, because I guess what I know about that—‘cause I don’t remember her, actually, I just remember being told that that was the name of my imaginary friend, when I was little.  Okay. o So.  So you don’t remember having conversations with her? o I don’t actually remember having conversations with her. Um, I-I guess a lot of what I remember, um, a lot of these, what I remember is actually from stories that people have told me about—like my, I had a friend named {NAME} who I used to just tell…I would just tell all these stories to, to her. And they—she just enjoyed them as, um, imaginary stories, and—but to me, they were very real. Um, and uh, but she would just, yeah, indulge me, as long as I wanted to talk about those sorts of things [short laugh]. Um…yeah, I remember her sister, I told her sister that there were gophers in the, in the—giant gophers in the, um, in the dumpsters, and I remember when I told her that, I did believe it. And there was, and so of course her sister believed it because when somebody believes what they’re telling you, it’s very difficult to tell [laughter] that it’s something that’s a

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complete fantasy. And she was a little, um…so that’s a story that they always bring up. But I, I do remember that when I was telling that story, I was very convinced that it was true, so.  Okay. So you’ve been able to hear things, it sounds like pretty much your whole life? Would that be accurate? o Yeah, actually, now that I think of it, when I was in high school, I started doing, like, séances and things like that, and um, so I would share the—and it was just for fun, it was—and at that time I really thought of it just as sharing my active imagination to spook out my friends. But um, but we would do things where we would light candles and look in the mirror and see things in the mirror, or we’d sit and I’d hear, you know, hear things. And it was this sort of, like, calling spirits to speak to me, and I would always hear and see things. But it was just, but it was hard for me to distinguish—it was a very vivid experience for me, but I still thought of it as being an imaginary experience.  Was it—it sounds like, in that sense, it was enjoyable to you in some ways? Would that be accurate? o It was terrifying. But, doing it with my friends made it, uh, it always felt safe when my friends were there.  I see. o But when I was by myself, I was just always terrified of the dark, really terrified. And I would, sometimes I would get into my bed, and I would see and hear these things, and they’d just be all around me and noisy noisy noisy noisy, and I would just, I wouldn’t even be able to move. Like, I wouldn’t even be able to pull the blanket over my head because it was so petrifying! [laughter] So, I think doing that with my friends made it into something that was…more, maybe more normal, or more…scary, but also funny, or something like that, I don’t know.  Like, if you could laugh at it, it’d be less scary? o Yeah, something like that. And then, I think, seeing horror movies and things like that also made it kind of less scary, because it was like, ‘cause that was so obviously not real. And so then it made it, like, um, more my imagination and therefore something that I could control more.

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 So it sounds like it’s been helpful for you to think more this as imaginary, this is not real, kind of putting that framework around it. o I definitely di—there was definitely a moment, a time in my life where, there have been times in my life where I just decided that, I just decided to put it into a drawer. And, um, uh, yeah in order to sort of protect myself, yeah. [laughter]  You’ve mentioned the times, like, waking up in the morning and hearing your name very loudly. Um, are there any other times when hearing things has felt helpful to you, or like there was some information that you needed? o Well, I think that, um, so, uh, when I was having this hard time when I was in Nepal, I started doing meditation. And through that practice, I started meeting people who f—who believe that hearing voices and things like that is a gift and that it’s, there’s something to be learned from it. And so, um, I think, very recently, I’ve started to think of it as, well maybe I can just listen to this and take information from it and not be, and not feel like I’m being attacked. And um, specifically with the presence of that, um, little girl that I saw when I was in Mumbai, um, I worked with a friend of mine to try to, like, think of what, what it might mean, or if there was some information that I was supposed to take. And um—this is the same friend that does the energy work—and she said um, she said, well, and so she was saying, “Well I don’t think it’s a bad thing, it’s not malicious or anything,” even though it was really terrifying to me, and um, and she said—I said, “Well why would it be so scary to me?” And she said, “Well maybe it’s encouraging you to do something or to change in a way that’s scary to you.” So then, um, she was sort of encouraging me to, yeah, to maybe to listen. And I talked to a therapist before about it, and the therapist had said, “Yeah, don’t listen to the voices.” [laughter] She was really quick about that. And I think it’s just ‘cause she—you know, in cognitive therapy, obviously, if you start listening to them, you’re crazy! [laughter]  So she encouraged you to just ignore— o Yeah, she says, “Just ignore, just ignore that stuff.” And so, um, I’ve always been really scared of going crazy. It’s one of the things, like, I’ve always felt like I was, that there was the possibility that I could switch over from being engaged in

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this common reality that we all experience and just sort of drift off into this completely other parallel one, um. And so, um, and I think maybe the first, my first fear, that was when I was a little girl, and I was in church, and I got the giggles, I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience.  Oh yeah. o And um, I had a really vivid sense of like, this idea of evil and the Devil and the Devil making you do things, and I was like, the Devil’s making me giggle in church! [laughter] And it was such a terrifying feeling because I, it was a feeling of loss of control. And I think, um, that I associated that loss of control with this idea of evil. And so there was this feeling of, like, if I lose control of my rational faculties and my ability to make myself understandable to other people, I’m going to be, there’s, then I’m going to become a horrible person. And I think, socially also, we have that idea about, like, if you’re not operating on this plane of reality, then there is something dark or evil or just destructive about that. That’s um, yeah, so I’ve always had that sense of I can’t go too far over into that.  So when you’ve got these two people, one of them telling you, “Don’t listen to any of it,” and the other saying, “Explore this and see if it has a message for you,” which one do you find helpful? Which one did you choose to follow? o Well I think now, I think that at the time when I was talking to that therapist, that that was good advice for me because, um, I was just, I was just having a really hard time, and like I said, I wasn’t, I wasn’t sleeping properly, I wasn’t taking good care of myself, and I was really, my nerves were really frayed, um. But I feel like now that I’m, like, mor—a little bit more grounded, I feel like things are just a little more in balance, that it’s okay to sort of, just, you know, just to listen in and just to see, see what I hear.  So opening up to that feels safer at a point in your life when you feel like you’re in a more stable place. Is than an okay way to put it? o Yeah, definitely. I mean, and, I mean, in a way I’m actually in an unstable place because I’m, I’ve just become unemployed [laughter], I don’t have a job for next year, so there’s this—my apartment, someone else is moving into my apartment in the summer. [laughter]

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 Oh wow… o So there’s this kind of openness, like, I don’t know what I’m going to do next, but, um, but I feel more, um, I don’t know, I guess grounded is the only word I can think—that’s of course a word that comes from this meditative practice, it’s this idea of being grounded and just feeling like, um, I’m not going to go just do something crazy. But there’s that feeling, like, I have the potential to do something really crazy! [laughter]  It sounds like, I’m hearing you’re feeling grounded as a person. Even though circumstances might not be great, you’re feeling grounded yourself. o Right, right, yeah. And it is just a feeling of, like, um, I don’t know, it’s just yeah, it’s hard to explain. It doesn’t have to, yeah, it doesn’t have to do with the circumstances around, it has to do with, like, my state of being in myself.  Right. o So. I, I also have, um, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder on both sides of my family, and the ADHD and all those things that tend to kind of, um, make that kind of crazy stew. [laughter] So.  How do you think that relates to your own experience? Do you have an idea of what that means for you personally? o Yeah, I mean, I do think that, like, there were moments, like when I was studying for that exam where I just stressed my nervous system, really put a lot of pressure on it through, you know, the use of chemicals and lack of sleep. And that, um, there’s the possibility of, like, [laughter] really putting yourself into some kind of psychological torture by not taking care of—or for me, to, if I’m not taking care of my body, that, um, I think really tweaked my brain out, and um, you know, so when I see my cousins, and it’s always been, um, mixed in with drug use, um, you know, I have those, those kinds of psychological problems [unintelligible] I completely see how it could happen.  What kinds of drugs? o Um, I don’t, recreational, I mean, they were using, I don’t know. Illegal drugs, but I don’t know. I think that there was a lot of mixing of different things.  And were, you were participating?

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o Oh no, I didn’t.  You were not. o I wasn’t, no, I’ve never, um—I, like I said, I, it’s something that I’m really scared of.  I see. o And so, I’ve always just been, I’ve been pretty cautious about it.  So you would choose not to because you wonder if you’ve got, maybe, a greater vulnerability? o I already feel like, even when I’m sober, I’m a little bit less in control than I would like to be. And so the idea of blitzing myself out like that, it’s just not something I’m attracted to at all. [laughter] So, um.  If you don’t mind, I am still curious about this time when, um, the woman said, “Stay upstairs,” is that correct? o Yeah.  How did you interpret that experience? o Um, I just, um, I didn’t know, you know, I was, I had partic—some particular things that I, um, was trying to make decisions about, um. And um, I sort of sat with that for a while to try to figure out what it meant, um, I’ve been working on my dissertation and I also have this, um, long-distance relationship, um, with someone who’s, uh, who I met in Nepal, he’s in China now, and, I just really, really wanted to be with him, and so, I was trying to figure out a way to be with him. And so, um, eventually I interpreted “stay upstairs” to mean that I just need to focus on, like, my brain work and forget about the, the rest of me, the other ways I, that I want to feel fulfilled. Um, yeah, and just focus on my work.  So, academic work, is that…? o Yeah. So that’s what, eventually—I mean, that was my interpretation of, of what “stay upstairs” meant, it was just like, that I have this space as kind of a gift to finish what I have to finish.  Did that feel like helpful advice? o Yeah, there’s something sort of comforting about feeling like um, yeah, yeah, it was, there’s something comforting about feeling like I get these sort of

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disembodied pieces of guidance. It’d be nice if there was some, like, omniscient being that could tell you what to do next! [mutual laughter] Wouldn’t it be nice?  Yeah! That’d be great! o Yeah! So, I’ve, I mean, I think there’s some people who really believe that they have that kind of guidance day to day, um, and so, to whatever degree it makes sense for me to look at it that way, then, it’s comforting, I guess.  Okay. Does it seem to you as if these bits of information come from one source, or, I don’t know what your thought is of what’s behind these things. o I guess I feel like they come from me, from some part of me. I guess that’s the way that I look at it.  Like some part of you is giving you some advice about your own life? o Yeah, I mean, I definitely always have felt like there, like the different parts of me are not fully—you know, like, that I could be depressed in the week that, that this baby, this would-have-been baby should have been born and not even realize it’s that week, you know, so I’ve always felt like there’s a kind of, these disconnected parts of myself that, um, maybe speak to each other, you know, around my head, whatever, around the back, or whatever.  I see, yeah. o So.  It sounds like over the course of time, these experiences have gone from being a lot of different things for you. So, at some times in childhood it seems like it just felt like overactive imagination, and there were other times, like at night, when it felt really terrifying, and now there are times when it feels helpful and, like, oh it’s nice to have this guidance, but it feels like it’s coming from me. Um, does that capture your experience, or is there more in there that you’ve felt about this experience? o Yeah, I think that’s, that’s pretty accurate, yeah.  Okay. o Yeah.  Big change over time, a lot of different things that you’ve felt, um, and maybe more than one thing at a time, at certain times.

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o Well, you know, and I even feel like different days, I have a really different feeling about—I have a really different feeling when I’m going to sleep, like—I mean, ‘cause that’s really the moment when it’s like, when I feel, either I’m going to be besieged by these sort of terrifying things or it’s going to be very peaceful or—y-you know, that’s, that’s the moment where I really feel like, it’s like checking in, how, how things are, in my universe, so. But I still, sometimes I can still be afraid of the dark. But the thing was really helpful that my friend told me about, just to feel like I have some kind of power to, to like just take it and put it somewhere else, get a little bit of space to fall asleep.  So it feels good to have some—feels like now you have some more control over it. o Oh yeah, I think that was the worst feeling as a kid, is just like, that I was just lying, laying there, and I, and there, I can’t get out because I’m not allowed to get out of bed, and I can’t move to turn on the light, I can’t shout for my parents because they’ll just tell me to go back to sleep, and just being just terrified. So.  And just open to anything that would happen. o Yeah. There’s no way to control—I, it never occurred to me that I could control, in any way, what I was seeing or what was going on. It just seemed completely external to myself. You know, and then the next day, the sun comes up and I would just sort of forget about it. But then, it’s like, I’d be getting in bed and I’d think, “Oh no! Here it comes again!” [laughter]  So at what point in your life were you able to get this advice or guidance on how to control the experience more, get more control? o Very recently. Yeah, very recently. I think I’ve always been—I mean, I s—I wasn’t as, um, afraid of the dark when I had, I had roommates.  So having someone with you is helpful. o Yeah. Yeah.  So would it be within the last year or so that you got this guidance from this person? o Yeah, yeah, in the last year, yeah.  And it sounds like that’s made a big difference. o Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

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 I’m just going to double-check my list ‘cause I want to make sure we cover…everything…. Oh, um, I didn’t ask about frequency. So, does this tend to be a fairly frequent daily experience, or is this, like, sometimes more frequent than others? How does it work, or how has it worked throughout your life? o Um, I think there’s been times when it was a daily experience and there’s been times when there was nothing for a long time.  Okay. So there have been times in your life when, you know, you go to sleep and it doesn’t feel like there are things ready to assault you at night, it doesn’t feel like—you’re not hearing anything extraneous. o Yes, yep. Yeah, and actually, when there’s nothing, I don’t, I don’t notice it. It’s not like I’m like, “Wow, this room is really clear,” it’s not like that, it’s just, I don’t notice it or if there is something, then I sort of, it’s always, it always kind of takes me by surprise.  So when there is something there, you notice it, but when it’s not there, it doesn’t even occur to you. o Yeah.  Okay. o Yeah. But I do have long periods where there’s…no disturbance.  Yeah? How long is a long period? Like months, years? o Yeah, maybe a couple, couple—probably just for, maybe a few weeks at a time.  A few weeks. o Yeah, probably a few weeks at a time. You know, and again, it’s something sm— it’s something small and then I can sort of, um…yeah, I can just sort of ignore it or calm myself down or…. But I have to say that they don’t—I think, I think it’s less frightening to me now than it, it was. Well, sometimes it can get me, I guess. Every once in a while.  Yeah? o Yeah. But it’s, of course, not like in my childhood when I was just terrified.  Right. o [almost a whisper] Completely terrified.

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 Yeah, of course. [pause] If you could, um, if you had a choice to never hear any of these things again, would you choose that, or would you choose to continue to have these experiences? o That’s a very interesting question. If I could choose to not hear anything anymore…. I don’t know, that’s a really good question! Um…. I don’t think I would choose not to, even though—I think at this point I wouldn’t choose not to. I think, maybe earlier I would have, um, when I was a kid I think I definitely would have chosen not to, to see anything at night, but I don’t think I feel that way anymore.  Yeah, how come? o Um, I think it’s um…[laughter] that’s a really good question! I guess because it’s part of, um, my experience with the w—it’s a, it’s an important part of my experience of the world. And um…yeah, somehow I feel like I’d be missing something. You know, like, like if I couldn’t hear—well, it’s not as extreme as if I couldn’t hear, but you know, if you can’t hear, you can still be completely functional, but you’re just kind of missing something.  I see, yeah. o It’s like a level of, a different level of….  Yeah, and you mentioned how you understand some of these things to be an extension of you in some ways. o Yeah, I think it’s part of my, I mean, a part of who I am in the world, I guess. The way I am in the world.  It sounds like it’s something you haven’t thought of before. o Yeah, I’ve never, never asked myself that question before. I mean, I did sort of shut it off for a while, I guess, um. Or just, it was just, it was like an ignoring…an ignoring process.  And that was effective for that time? You were able to ignore it and it went away, or…? o It’s not that it went away, but it’s just that it didn’t b—it wasn’t like, I had to think about it or whatever. And I didn’t have an emotional reaction to things.  Okay.

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o I would just sort of, like, I would notice that I’d seen something that was strange, or I’d notice that I’d heard something, but I just, it was just sort of filtering out things that I knew. It’s easy to tell whether it’s something that other people are hearing or seeing or not.  How is it easy? o Um, well, you know, I mean, if you think, either—there, there are noises and things that are so h—like if you hear a cat in a room and there’s no cat in the room, then, you know. If you look around the room and you can’t see a cat, then…. Although I guess there [laughter]—I had an experience last year where my nephew ran by, and said, “Did you just see that little boy?” to my friend. [mutual laughter] And um, and he was like—‘cause, ‘cause I looked for him, I couldn’t see him. Said, “Did you see a boy running by?” And he said, “Yeah, I saw a little boy,” I said, “Okay.” But it was like, he ran by the house, I saw him in my peripheral vision, and then I couldn’t see him. So I guess sometimes that happens, but most of the time, it’s like, I saw a wolf by the side of the road, but it’s not there anymore, so.  Yeah, it’s easy to check it out. o When I look over, yeah.  Okay, makes sense. Um, I’m curious to know that, you know, today, how many people know that you have these kinds of experiences periodically? How many people do you share that with? o Um, I sh—I talk to my mom about it. I talk to my dad about some, but he’s sort of like [makes face], he just thinks it’s really weird. Um…um, I talk to some of my girlfriends about. It’s not something that I hide from peop—or that I’m ashamed of or that I hide from people, but um, it is something that certain people will just think it’s very strange, so.  Mhm. o How many people, let’s see…number…do you need a number?  No, it’s not necessary, but it sounds like— o Maybe I’ll say half-and-half, of my friends and family.  Okay. How do you choose whether or not to share it?

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o Um, just sort of like if there’s a conversation where it comes up. It’s never like, “I need to talk to you about something,” that sort of thing, but just, um, sometimes when I talk about my decision-making, it has to do with those things. Certain experiences that are linked to things that, um, that I’ve seen or…yeah.  And part of why I ask is that, for some folks who have experiences like you’ve had, when they share that with someone, sometimes they’re treated very badly by the other person in terms of, “Oh, you’re weird,” “Oh, there must be something wrong with you,” those kinds of things. And I’m wondering if that’s happened for you. o I have had people who think it’s weird, but I think because I come off to people as being very stable, um—you know, I feel like if you’re, if you’re, you know, homeless on the street and you say you heard somebody talk, you’re going to get thrown right into an institution. Like, there’s no in-between there. But, if you’re functional, then people just feel like it’s, it’s quirky or—it’s a quirk.  Okay. o Yeah, I think, you know, and actually, it’s interesting because right now I’m thinking about doing something a little bit less, like, taking a little bit less traditional career. You know, I’m supposed to get an academic job, I’m supposed to get tenure, I’m supposed to, this sort of—and um, I’m not sure that I want to do that, I want to do something kind of part-time; you know, I used to be artistic— you know, so I’m thinking about these things, and the first thing I think is, if I do that, people are going to start thinking I’m crazy when I talk about these things, is actually something that I—I’m like, then, if I’m doing that, what separates me from an institution? I don’t know, I don’t know how much that separates me from—you know, ‘cause I have kind of a temper, um…  And so people would judge you for that. o Yeah, there’s, there’s a feeling, I always feel like my career is something— coming into my office each day, turning in my work, showing up for my class, is something that keeps me, that, that puts a line between me and crazy people. [laughter] And that, once I don’t have all those things, you know, if like I’m living in a trailer with my kids, throwing pots or something like that [laughter], I’ll end up in an institution! So.

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 I’m curious to know, do you feel that way—that other people would view you that way, or do you feel that way for yourself? Like, if I don’t have this… o I’m only afraid of other people. I’m really afraid of, I’m afraid of literally ending up in an institution. Of literally being, sort of like, “Anything she says is crazy,” and not being able to say, like, you know, somebody was horrible to me, or somebody—you know, not having anybody believe you. And losing your voice. You know, so, yeah; if you want to make sure that you always have a voice, then you only say things that are believable. And then people continue to believe you. But then…yeah, once you start doing something that people think is odd, then--- anyway, and that’s just my feeling about it, it’s a fear that I have.  Yeah, so having this more conventional career might be your way of saying, “Look, here’s proof that I’m okay.” o Yeah, exactly. Yep.  Makes sense. o Yeah. So, and you know, when I had, uh, emotional turmoil in my life, and I started to get—you know, I’d feel like getting unmoored, like I’m, I’m crazy. And so, um, then going into my office is always like, [whispered] I’m not crazy; see? Here I am, I’m reading. You know, I’m typing. You know.  Like, reassuring yourself? o Yeah, a sort of a reassurance.  I see. o So—but at the same time, I’d like to do something that’s a little bit, um, different, but yeah. Well anyway, we’ll see. I mean, I think the best thing, um, you know, in my decision-making, the best thing is to have something that’s sort of, like, a nine-to-five thing and—but, you know, maybe less of the week, and then have other time to do things that are a little more crazy. [laughter]  I’m curious to know more about the important people in your life. Who would you say is important to you? o Um, my parents and my kids, mainly. My brother and my sister, my immediate family is really important to me. I mean, my parents live pretty near me, so, they’re a real immediate part of my life right now. When I’m away, then, you

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know, then we talk less and we’re less, um, involved in each others’ life. But yeah, mainly my parents and, uh, my kids.  What about friends? o Yeah, I have a lot of really good friends. I have, like, so many wonderful—I just feel like everywhere I go, I just trip over these fabulous, amazing women. So I have lots of really wonderful female friends all over the place from, from traveling, so. And I have a, a couple of really good friends here in town, too. So.  For you, what makes a good friendship, or a good supportive relationship? o Um, uh, somebody who’s um, who has a lot of, you know, uh, interesting ideas and who’s fun to talk to. And, um, someone who’s casual and who’s willing to, like, come into my house when it’s messy, or, you know, hang out with—when my kids are around, or whatever, um. And um, someone who’s affectionate, you know, who’s, who’s willing to, like, you know, feel things and, you know, have a, a warm and affectionate relationship.  And share those feelings with you? o Yeah.  So, some emotional intimacy, it sounds like. o Yeah. Definitely.  Do you feel that the, the friends and the close relationships with your family you have now are people that you can go to when you’re hurting, when something’s wrong, and feel supported? o Yeah, to a certain degree; I mean, I like, I usually like to be, um, I like my social time to be fun time, and um, jolly time, so I, I usually tend to retreat into my shell when I’m having problems. And then um, and then when I feel good or, you know, when I feel up, then I like to be social. So, but I feel like a lot of times people are like, “You can tell me,” you know, there’s a lot of, “You can tell me!” But it’s hard for me to be really vulnerable with people. I feel like it’s unsightly. [laughter] Some people are cute when they’re sad, I’m not! [laughter]  So you feel like, for you, you prefer to retreat when you’re feeling things that don’t feel so great, um. Do you feel that you could share if you wanted to? o Yeah, I do.

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 With other people? It sounds like they’re encouraging in that direction, but for you it doesn’t feel like something you want to do. o Yeah.  Okay. Makes sense. o It’s, I guess it’s self-consciousness. But it’s also a feeling, like…when I’m having the issue, I’m never completely sure whether it’s, like, PMS, or something like that or whether it’s real? So sometimes I have a hard time validating my own, um, my own sadness, or whatever. And I, for that reason, I don’t want to share it.  Like, not feeling like it’s justified or something? o Yeah, it’s sort of like—because whenever I—every month, it’s like, it’s like the first time I’ve ever had PMS. [laughter] I’ll just go into, like, a total frenzy, and then, and then I’m just like [sigh], my period. [laughter] Someday I’m going to start marking these things on the calendar! [laughter] So, uh, for that reason, I— and I just have ups, really huge, just crazy mood swings.  How so? o Well, I mean, I’ll just have days where I’m like, “Everything’s horrible! I fail at everything I try! There’s no use in going on!” And I’ll just be, uh—you know, I guess, as I’m describing it, it sounds like that’s sort of, um, manic-depressive cycle. And then some days, I’m like, “I’m gonna pack up my house and move to China!” [laughter] So, I have those kinds of cycles, and I [clears throat], it’s led me to be a little bit cautious with my own, um, feelings. So I’m like, right now I feel like packing up my house and moving to China, but I’m just going to wait [laughter] a couple days, and see if I still feel that way. So.  So you—it sounds like you recognize them as emotions and you don’t feel the need to act on them. You don’t actually pack up your house and move to China. Or do you? o I’m, I’m a bit impulsive.  Okay. o I mean, that’s a big one, you know, which requires a lot of planning, but—  Yeah. o —uh, but I, I’d, I would definitely describe myself, definitely, as impulsive. So. And sometimes I don’t even realize that it’s something that I wouldn’t have done

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the previous day, I’m just sort of…so. But I try to kinda [whispers], I try to rein it in.  Does it feel like that gets in the way of living your life, or makes your life less enjoyable? o Um, it makes me feel a little bit, um, on-edge.  On-edge. o Like, there’s a feeling of, of um, I’m not sure that what I’m doing right now is what I really want to be doing, there’s that kind of a feeling, so. So I feel cautious, a lot of the time. But um, um, does it get in the way? But I do feel like I enjoy my life.  You say most days you like your life and—would you describe yourself as happy? o Yeah, yeah, I think I’m happy. I’m really happy with—when I’m with my kids. They’re a lot of fun. So I try to just keep focused on kind of the here-and-now and not get caught up in the big…. [laughter]  And I think you mentioned you’re working on your dissertation? Is that correct? o Mhm, yeah.  So you’ve been, um—just curious to get kind of a timeline of, um, what you’ve done in life, so you’ve been in graduate school for…? o Well I’ve done—been in this Ph.D. program since my daughter was born, so it’s been six years.  Okay. o Well, this, I guess this is my fifth academic year. She was already little.  So did you— o So, and I should finish this—I’m supposed to defend next month, so.  Okay, good for you! That’s great. o It’ll be great if it gets done! [laughter]  Yeah, I hear ya! o I was also supposed to defend in December, but then my advisor wanted me to rewrite the whole thing, so that’s what I’m doing now.  Okay. o Good times.  Is that through {UNIVERSITY}?

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o Uh uh, no, it’s through {UNIVERSITY}.  {UNIVERSITY}, okay. o I’m here because my parents are here. So I was teaching and, as an adjunct here, while I was writing.  And before that, um—my math isn’t great, so, did you have a time between college and grad school? o I just, yeah, well let’s see, I graduated from school in 19__—oh no, that’s high school—19__ I graduated from college. I spent a year as an intern in New York. And I did an M.A., which took me a year here, in Political Science. Then I went to India for, um, four years all together, got married there.  What was in India? o I was going there to study Hindi.  Oh, okay. o So, I studied, yeah, I studied the whole—well, I worked and studied while I was in India.  What kind of work? o Um, I was working for an English program for Sri Lankan refugees.  Okay. o So, and then I studied Hindi most of the time I was there. And I met my husband, got married. Um, we moved to New York together in 20__, and um, I had {DAUGHTER} in 20__—that’s my daughter. I started graduate school in 20__ at {UNIVERSITY}—my husband was at {UNIVERSITY}. Um, we got divorced in—we separated in 20__. Um, my son was born, um. Let’s see…we moved to India in the beginning of, January 20__. Then we moved to Nepal—again, that’s all four of us—moved to Nepal in 20__…for the academic year, 20__-20__, and then I came back here. That’s the whole timeline.  Okay. Was that study, when you returned to India and went to Nepal? o All study. I’ve basically been studying my entire life! [laughter] I like it.  Yeah. I do, too, obviously, ‘cause I’ve been in it for a while as well. o How long have you been in your program?

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 This is my fifth year. So I’ve been in—it’s a five-year program, I took two years off after undergrad. So five years, going on six. o Okay, yeah, that’s great.  Hopefully I’ll be done and defending my dissertation! Well, let me check and make sure, ‘cause I think we’ve covered everything…. [pause] Yeah, I think, I think we’ve covered just about everything, unless there’s anything that you can think of that would, that you feel would be important for me to know about your experience that we haven’t gotten to, or maybe I have not asked in the right way, or anything like that. o I don’t know…. I don’t think so.  Okay. Well, thank you so much for your time. It’s—I just really appreciate you sharing your experience with me, and it is such an interesting experience, and I just feel really honored that you’ve been willing to share that with me. And it such a personal story, I know that it can feel vulnerable to share that with someone. I know you mentioned earlier, like, “You’re going to think this is crazy,” kind of thing. So I appreciate your being willing to share with me anyway. o Well I think it’s a great project that you’re doing, because I know that—you know, I wonder about other people who are in institutions and I wonder, like, how different are they really from me? [laughter] That’s what I always wonder; isn’t there a place for people, in our world, to have a little bit wa-wa experiences? I don’t know if, I think it’s, it’s um….  There are a lot of movements in that direction. I mean, I don’t know how much you’ve heard about Mad Pride kind of things? o Uh uh.  It’s kind of, it kind of can be conflated with the antipsychiatry movement, um, but it’s called Mad Pride in some locations, especially I think in Great Britain, and more people who have different kinds of experience say, like, you know, there’s nothing wrong with me, I just have an experience that’s very different from the majority of people, and that’s okay. Um, it doesn’t mean I need to be locked up. So I think there are a growing number of folks that are kind of standing up against this kind of societal reflex we have to stigmatize someone who has an experience that isn’t the norm.

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o Well this is another thing that worries me when I see the, the way that the gun control thing gets shifted into this, um, you know, lock up everybody who’s crazy kind of—and, when I see—this is why I get scared, is I’m just like [unintelligible]. You know, over here’s my conversation, and feels like—you know, it’s that sort of, um, kind of fear.  Yeah. I don’t blame you, because I see those things as well. The first thing they go to is, well, what was this person’s psychiatric history? And it’s, you know, past violence tends to be a good predictor of violence, but psychological factors don’t tend to be a great predictor of violence. o Well, and also, I think that hearing things doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re violent, a violent—there doesn’t—  No correlation in the research. o Well, that doesn’t, I didn’t know about the research, but that doesn’t surprise me [laugh], because I know a lot of people who have wacky experiences and are, are gentle people, so.  Mhm. o And I’m sure there are people who do horrible things that don’t, um—yeah, anyway.  Well, and the research would say that lots of people do have—like, experiences on a continuum. Like, some people will hear things every day, and some people will hear things once in a while, but really, it’s not just that there are some people over here who hear things and the rest of us don’t. It’s more of a continuum. o That makes a lot of sense. And actually, it’s, you know, the question that you asked about, um, about stress, it really, that really makes a lot of sense to me too, because I, I definitely know that when I’m okay…well, it’s like I said, I don’t notice when I’m okay, but then once I start getting stressed out, it’s like, yeah , it’s just this noise around. So. Yeah.  Well thank you again. If you have any questions in the future, um, or are just wondering about the study, feel free to get in touch with me. o Thanks.

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 Um, and if I have any, like, follow-up questions for you to clarify anything, is it okay for me to get in touch with you? o Feel free, yeah. Yeah. But I’m really looking forward to seeing what you come up with when you’re done.  Yeah! Great, thank you, I appreciate that.

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Diane o [I don’t know if] other recordings would be helpful to you, but you’re certainly welcome to them.  Okay. o Um, a couple of them…. This, a lot of this has been fairly recent for me. Like, I had, um…that’s so funny, so odd, the timing of it all, but…mm…. I had, um, a couple of-of occasions, instances, um, in my life. When I initially talked to {FRIEND}, I was like, you know, it’s not like I’m chatting with people--like, “oh don’t wear that, it’s going to make your butt look big,” kinda thing—but, like, I would have like maybe three instances in my life when I felt like I had an o- outside intervention sort of thing.  Okay. o Um, [nervous laugh] and then, um, so I said, well, so I don’t really know if she’s going to want to talk—because I don’t really have a lot of experience, but I mean it might be relevant. And then, not, I wanna say a week later…uh, it’s hard to explain, mm, okay, so, I-I had those events, those few events, uh…uh, prior to my most recent event—which was about energy work. Um, and then…uh…I started getting back into the energy work, and then because of that…[quietly] uh, this is just, that’s not, that’s not the right way to talk about it.  You don’t have to— o I’m going to have to do this chronically—like in chronological order. [laugh]  That’s fine! o That makes more sense.  So when was the first experience you had? o The thing was, I was raised in um, a Christian church….  Any denomination in particular? o {MAINSTREAM PROTESTANT}.  Okay. o So, I was, I was a very spiritual kid, and I was um…uh…  Spiritual?

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o Yeah, like I had, um…my mom, I remember, my mom told me this story, that one time, um, she was like out in the pasture on the farm [clears throat] where there’s no city lights; it’s really dark at night, like dark. And [laugh], and so she was a little kid, she was out in the pasture, and she didn’t kinda realize what time it was, it got really dark, and then she was lost, she was afraid. And so she started talking to God, like, I’m really afraid, I don’t, whatever, and that comforted her. And I remember her telling me that story, like, I can’t even remember how old I was the first time I heard that. And so, when I was, when I was pretty young, I had sort of a, um, what felt like a running conversation sort of…  Dialogue, back and forth? o Yeah…not quite as much dialogue. More monologue-y with nudges, would be more the way I would describe it [laughter].  Who was nudging and who was monologuing? o I was monologuing, and then occasionally I’d get a nudge, you know [laughter], and so. But it was more like, I was just always talking to God in my head, and whatever.  Okay. o And so, I, I kind of grew up thinking that that wasn’t weird, like—and I think that kind of sets the stage for later experiences, but. And then I…I was, I was really involved, like I was head acolyte, I was the secretary of the youth organization, I went on national conferences with our youth group, like, I was really very involved. Then, and then high school hit, and, uh, feminism hit me like a Mack truck. And I started looking—I went to the back of the Bible and I looked up all the references to woman, mother, wife, daughter, all the female references in the Bible, and I was like, this sucks! Why am I—screw this! [laughter]  Yeah… o So then I had this whole, like, just sort of searching phase for a very long time.  Mhm. o Um…so then—I took lots of comparative religion classes, I was like, so maybe that one didn’t work, I’ll figure something else out. But nothing else really felt right, and so it was just, I kind of, I read up on Buddhism, and that was

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interesting, but it didn’t really like tap anything deep. I mean, it was intellectual and interesting, and I agreed with a good bit of it. But it wasn’t like, like I didn’t, it didn’t move me. And I tried a bunch of, like I had a roommate who was a Wiccan, and I was like, again, I was like, intellectually I was like, yeah! Go women! Let’s get behind this! But it was the same thing, it just didn’t, it just didn’t feel right for me. So I-I tried Catholicism, I tried all of these different things. And then comes my senior year of college. I was a gender and diversity studies major with every intention of becoming a professor, doing the academic route. And then, about my senior year, I realized I didn’t want to do that. And I was like, oh shit, because I hadn’t, like, I’d been, I hadn’t even thought about anything else, it was like I knew what I wanted from freshman year on. Like, never changed my major, never—like I was, I was focused. And so I was completely unprepared for anything else. I hadn’t done any inter—I-I was totally, like, totally lost in that respect, so.  Was it a situation where you felt like your interests just radically changed, or you just became aware that the interest wasn’t there? o I became aware of the fact that—I watched my best friend and my mom both get their PhDs, and it was so strenuous, and so, just—I mean, the politics, and just the, the…I guess politics is the best word, but of academia, someone’s advisor, all this—what they’re doing can’t—and it’s just—oh God. And just the workload and just—I, the more I thought about it, I was like, I really don’t think I would do well in this environment. Like, in my head, it was kind of—I thought of it just sort of like being a teacher. Like, I didn’t realize the publish-or-perish, or just that whole, it’s a very different kind of climate than I really realized I think at first. And so, initially I was thinking, oh this is great, I love my subject, I love, you know, I was the dorky kid, and I always felt so bad for the business majors, who were always like, “Ugh, I have to go to bleh, I have to go to class, I have to go to econ,” or whatever. And, ‘cause I loved my major. I read the stuff I didn’t even have to read, like, I read the supplementals, and I never missed class, and it was, I loved it, you know. And so, that’s why I thought, oh I’m definitely in the right place. You know, everybody else is all bleh, you know, and I’m like, no, this is

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awesome! So that was partly, you know, fuelling my certainty I guess. And then I realized, I was like, you know what, I don’t think this would be right for me, I don’t think I would be good at this, I don’t actually like arguing with people. I like, you know, especially when people are very, um, emotionally invested in their argument, and a lot of times when you’re talking about gender issues, you are addressing some very fundamental paradigm kinds of things and that affects their sense of their world in general, and so people can be very, very invested emotionally in those kinds of things and I, I was like, I don’t like that. Ugh! Later on, I realized that my…I perhaps may have backed out of that too quickly. But—because my mother’s approach and issues with her PhD not necessarily would have been mine. My mom is like a serious workaholic, and so she puts so much pressure on herself that, I don’t think that necessarily I would have reacted the same way, but at the time, I was like,—  Scared? o —forget that! I’m not doing that! She’s like, you know, literally working 16- hour days every day. And that’s just insane, like, how can you expect someone to do that? Ugh, so anyway. So, I’m close to graduating, I’m like six months from having to pay back these loans that I’ve been taking out with abandon, thinking, oh, I’m going to be, you know, whatever.  And you’d been planning to go to graduate school right after that? o Mhm. And…yeah, oh God. So, so I am completely adrift. I’m completely like, I had a plan for my life and it’s, it’s just been wiped, just completely erased. And I’m like, holy shit, I have no idea what I’m doing right now. And—  Did you complete the Bachelor’s? o I did, yes I did. Um, so, I’m freaking out. And I…[laugh] in classic form, was like, okay, God, I know we haven’t really been talking a whole lot lately, but um, here’s the thing. I’m, you know, freaking out, totally lost, no idea what to do, debt coming at me like a freight train. And so I basically um, I-I did what I call now, I prayed hard. Like, I, and I have not done this very often in my life, but it was the first time where I was literally…on my knees on the ground sobbing, supplicating, just like, God, just…oh.

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 So a very intense experience. o Very, very, very intense. And just like pleading, just, oh. And, a-after a point, you just get emotionally exhausted from that [laugh], and so you’re like, well, okay, I’m tired now! [laugh] But the coolest thing happened. I think, like, a week or two later? Not very long after. Um [short laugh], I got…a, uh, my-my answer, my, “Here you go, this is what you’re supposed to do.” And…the reason—it wasn’t a voice in my head. It was…an entire book. Um…and it was like, um, like literally. The entire book I had. I had the title, the chapter layouts, the, it was like complete. It wasn’t like, I wonder if I should do…, and then you kind of ponder it, and you brainstorm for a while, it was like, complete.  An immediate full-text available to you. o Yes, immediate, right in your head. And, This is what you need to do. And that was the interviews that I was doing, I was interviewing elderly people, but um…. And, when I would try to explain to people that I felt that this was a divine, like, gift, sort of here you go kind of thing, the way that I explained it to people is, I know how my brain works, and I know—I’m a relatively creative person, but I’m not an inventor, I’m not someone who can, like, I think I’ll create a new musical instrument that no one’s ever seen or ever, you know what I mean? You can take something and kind of be creative with it, like new use for it or something like that, but to have something completely, absolutely new, you know, like, that’s not how my brain works. And because that was such an abnormality, and it was, like, I literally remember exactly where I was standing, exactly where I was looking, exactly what I was doing, like it was such a pivotal moment, you know?  Tell me about that—where were you? o I was—oddly, I was at work. I was working as a barista. Um, still, you know, because I was in college. [laugh] And I remember, I, the counter was to my left and I was standing right in front of the cash register, and the cash register had faced a wall that was—it was actually inside a book store. And so, it was kind of a little nook, and then you had the windows. And so it faced the outside, and it was just this beautiful day, and I, and like the sun was shining, and the trees were all nice and green. And I remember, I was getting this dude’s change, like, he’d

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just bought a coffee or something, and I was, like, getting stuff out, and as I was pulling the money out or something like that, I remember, I looked up, and was thinking, oh wow, and I had this really interesting moment, you know, where you’re in the middle of your day and then just all of a sudden you’re like, huh! You know, and you have this nice little moment. And in that moment, it was like, bam! Like, there you go. In the middle of giving someone his change, it’s not like I was prayer—you know, praying or fasting for 20 days on a mountain somewhere, I was giving somebody their change. And this book was like [vocalizes crashing sound] right in my head, and I, I just, I literally was like, “Guh!” And then, I sort of saw the guy shift in the corner of my eye, and like, “Hello?” Because I was just standing there like, uh, you know. And I was like, “Oh, uh, yeah, here’s y-your change.” [laugh] And I was so, like, wow, that just happened to me just now.  What were the emotions you were experiencing when that happened? o I—oh wow. [quietly] I’m sure I journaled about this ad nauseum. It’s been so long ago, at this point…. I felt, like relief, and gratitude, and um, just awe, and— because I’d been freaking out, and I had my answer, I had my direction. It was like, here you go, this is what you’re supposed to do. And so, it was just, oh, it was such a relief, and it was so, like…like, sort of magical almost. You’re going about your day having a normal day, and then all of a sudden, like, something just—  Out of nowhere. o —yeah, amazing happens to you, and, I’m sure I went through the rest of my shift just in a daze, just, how do you even react to something like that? I don’t know, I don’t know anymore. I should probably look that up.  I’m wondering about the book itself. Was it the type of thing where it was like literal word-for-word this is what you write, or— o Uh-uh.  It was the concepts and the ideas? o Yeah, it was the concept, it was, um, it was the title, it was, um, like I said, I had, kind of had like a visual of a front page, I had the chapter breakdown. And it was

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so odd because, where I lived, I went to {UNIVERSITY}, and um, not, not far off of campus, kind of in a Victorian village was this long-term care facility called {FACILITY}, and um, because it wasn’t far from where I lived, I often drove past it, and for some reason, I was really…intrigued by it. Every time I drove by it, I would just really stare at it and—and for no reason, like, it’s not like the architecture was amazing or, you know, something that would kind of draw you in. It was just kind of like, I don’t know, just something about it that would just kind of caught my eye every time. And it was like, so, so the idea for the book was, it was called Wisdom of the Forgotten Grandmothers, and I was basically supposed to interview these women at this nursing home. And talk to them about their life experiences and pivotal moments in their life, and things they wish they could pass on to other people, like wisdom, and um, and then each one would be an interview with another person and obviously I’d change their identity, and then I even, in the consent form, I was like, if you want to pick your name you can. If you’ve always wanted to be Alberta, or you know, something like that, you can be Alberta in the book. And it was just really, and there was like an arc to it, like, you know, um, the interviews where women’s poignant, powerful moments were more in their childhood, and then adolescence, then early adulthood, then—so it was sort of the arc of the book, it was immediately there. I didn’t have the names of the people or anything like that, but it was just, it was so solid, it was so immediate.  You mentioned something like, “Here you go, this is what you’re supposed to do.” Was that a message that came across or was it any kind of actual words that came across, or just a feeling you had? o Umm, yeah, it was just a feeling.  Okay. o Yeah. It was—yeah, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t anything I heard or anything that I— it was just…it’s so strange, it’s like…. If a complete stranger walked up to you and handed you something, it was exactly what you needed, exactly when you needed it, exactly—and, you know what I mean? It was like, oh! Yes, thank you! Like [laugh], like, you know, there’s just sort of a, oh! Okay, this is it, now I

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understand. And then, and because I got that, I was like, okay, you’ve always been oddly curious about this place, they have an assisted living facility and they also have a step-down. And then they have full, uh, living, full-assistance living. They even have an Alzheimer's unit. So, that was okay. Once I graduated, got a job there, started interviewing women, that’s—I was like, okay, this is what I’m supposed to do. Well, here’s the thing, though…. Sometimes…I…I did not pursue that as, uh…enthusiastically as I should have. And so, it started slowly just sort of falling by the wayside as I was like, okay, I’ve got rent, I’ve got, who am I going to live with, and then you’re dating, and you know. And whatever, and so it starts to kind of, you know, and then it becomes, okay, this is my focus, and then it kind of changes into, well yeah, I still want to do this, da da da da da da da. And then it becomes, well, I’ll do that when I get the chance, and then it bec—you know, and it just changes its priority in your life. And…as the years went on, and I, I realized that I’d blown that. That I’d been, um, that I’d been given this directive, and because I didn’t really prioritize it and focus on it, um, the way that I should have, I kind of let it slip from, uh, like goal to a well, when I get around to it, or there’s this thing I’m working on in my spare time, it just shifts. And because I did that, I, I kind of lost some of the urgency of it, and some of the passion of it, and some of the, you know, that sort of thing. And, so, that’s, that’s an important first event because that comes into play later on. Then—so there was that, and I’m da da da da da da da, dating, moving here and there, getting jobs, blah blah blah. And then I’m continuing with this spiritual struggle of mine, I-I don’t know where I belong, I don’t like where I was, but I don’t have anywhere else to go, and so I’m kind of like, and whatever. And I remember one time…later, several years later, when I was married, I was all still all angsty about my spirituality, which at some point you’re like, oh for God’s sake, get over it already. [laugh] Because you can only be—angsty is for a particular period in your life [laugh], and at some point you’re like, okay, get ahold of yourself. But um, I remember one time I was just, I was mad, and I, I was like, doing the proverbial shaking your fist at the sky, and I was like…  Mad about what?

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o About…feeling like…God had turned his back on me. Or like…like…kind of fuelled by my, you know, feminism. Like, why would God…why are a quarter of women raped or molested sometime in their life? Why, I mean, why? Why? You know, and that kind of stuff. And I was mad about that, and I was frustrated because I couldn’t find anything that felt right, but yet also was in line with where I was intellectually as well, and so it was really frustrating. And I remember, I was having this [grunting sound], and I was crying and mad and whatever. And at one point, I s—I think I even said it out loud. I said, “Why would God turn his back on you like that?” And I—the first time that I actually heard heard a voice was then. And, and it was, God didn’t turn his back on you, you turned your back on God. And it was very…it should have really freaked me out. [laugh] Like, if you hear something like that, that should be very disturbing, odd feeling, but for some reason, it was completely like, it didn’t disturb me, it wasn’t disturbing, it felt totally normal and fine. And—the way that I’ve tried to explain it to other people is, they’re like, well, that’s just you talking to yourself in your head when you’re mulling over a problem. You’re like, oh this, oh what about that, you know, whatever. And I said no, no. I know, I know what my brain sounds like normally.  Mhm. o And this was a very, this was very different. This was, um, very quiet, and very androgynous, and…um…I guess I could say non-human? In that, it was very, like—there wasn’t the human vocal inflection, like [vocalizes], or sing-songiness. It’s like, more like when, like if, back in the 80s, if a computer program was reading, it’d be like [vocalizes], you know, just really flat, non-affected voice. And so it was very quiet, it was very calm, it was completely androgynous, and it was very, just this, oh, very, uh, it’s so hard to explain strange things to people. But—  When you say androgynous, was there a particular pitch to it? o No, that was just it, it was…that particular event felt like one, one voice. Later on, I—more recently, it was multiples, but that felt like one person. But there

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was…there wasn’t a, anything about the voice that indicated gender. It was just completely gender-neutral.  Okay. o And I think the reason why it didn’t bother me more was because it was so calm. It was so calm and just, like….  Like, matter-of-fact? o Um…not, not really matter-of-fact. It was more just like calm and, and gentle. Not like, I don’t know…  So it didn’t sound angry or blaming? o No, no, no, no, definitely not. It was like, it was, it was—I keep saying that it didn’t have the same vocal inflections that, like, a person would have. But there was…[clears throat] it was a very sort of flat, like it wasn’t sing-songy, it was just very flat vocally, but there…but there, I, it was sort of, I felt an intention, I guess. And it wasn’t—like I said, it was very calm, it was very soothing, it was very gentle, it was very—I don’t want to say loving, but just like…no, God didn’t leave you. You—you know, and it was just very…  What was the intention behind it? o Just, um…just that comforting, just like…like I said, just, like—I kind of, I kind of imagine, like…like a mother trying to talk to a child. The child is confused or upset about something, and the mom is like no, honey, it’s not your fault, you know, kind of like that, but not, not female, and not [laugh]…  Sure. o But that’s kind of what it felt like, it was like a…  It was the quality… o Yeah! Yeah, it was just kind of—and it was so, it was very brief, and—it’s not like we had an extended conversation. It was just like this one, one line, and again, that should have been so disturbing, but because it felt so calm and so gentle and so soothing and so, you know, just—it didn’t bother me at the time. I was like—in fact, I was like [grunt], I was all upset and mad and angsty [laugh], and then, I heard this…thought…I didn’t, like, ugh, this is all so hard to explain. I’ve been trying to really think about this a lot lately. And this, again, this is one

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of those things that, it happened long enough ago, I really should go back and look at my journals, because at this point…. Am I remembering it exactly as it is, or am I remembering the story I’ve been telling myself all these years?  Sure. o You know, is it like my personal mythos or whatever, or is it—but this is how I’ve, how I remember it.  That’s fine. o And I don’t remember hearing it with my ears. It was more of like a thought in my head that wasn’t mine. It was something very different than the thoughts that I know of as my own, and with a very unique quality, and like, signature.  And specific words. o Yeah, they were definitely specific words. Yeah, it was definitely not like a, not like the book idea, which I just sort of had a general, you know, whatever, this was a def—these were definite, specific, word, thought, kind of thing happening. And…and the effect that that had on me was—like I said, I wasn’t scared or anything. It actually kind of stopped me mid-rant. I heard this [mutters quietly] kind of thing, and I was like [quiet gasp, then laugh], it literally made me go, wait, is that true? Did I?  It stopped you in your tracks? o Yeah, I was like mid-[vocalizing]—oh. [laughs] You know, kind of like! [mutual laughter] And I was like, oh my God, that’s right! That’s absolutely right. You know? And this whole time, I’ve been railing and rrrrr, you know, whatever, and so it just knocked me on my ass, just completely, I was going this direction, and okay, let’s go this way now. And, so that was a very…very powerful and informative and pivotal sort of experience.  Was it helpful? o Extremely. Extremely helpful. And I remember—my then-husband {NAME}, w-we were both trying to find a spiritual home. And I think I was kind of in the midst of that, trying to figure out what was still holding me back from converting. And I think that was kind of the time that that angsty moment happened.  Okay.

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o Um, so… I’m trying to think…it’s like I said, there’s only been a handful of what I like to call my divine intervention moments. Um…is it really just this more recent one? So, the only one that I’m—the next one that I’m thinking of right off the top of my head—there must have been something else in there, that I’m not remembering right off the top of my head.  You can let me know if it comes up. o …I guess—it can’t have been just those couple of times…. But I think…there must have been, I’m not remembering—because for some reason I was thinking that this was the third, but…. I think that there was also some sort of a part of the, what I was trying to explain as, in my childhood spiritual, uh, view of the world growing up, was also sort of a…sometimes, just the right thing happens at just the right moment. Like, you’re walking down the street, and then you happen to bump into somebody that tells you about something that was exactly the thing that you—and you hadn’t seen that person in—you know, I mean—so sometimes, it’s that whole, um, “there are no coincidences” kind of idea of—spiritual idea of the world. And I think that sort of plays into sort of being more open to the possibility of other, more [cough] um, d—I don’t want to say…divinely, like…created, like, those divine nudges, like a little do this, or you know, kind of like that, where it doesn’t necessarily have to be, like, words, but that you feel kind of like nudged.  So you feel led in a certain direction? o Yeah.  Guided? o Yeah. And, and—so there’s an element of that, but also, um, there was that and [unintelligible], but…. So. Big event…January…late January…right? Yeah, because {CURRENT PARTNER} was recovering from surgery. Thankfully, he was on major drugs, so he had no idea how much I was freaking out.  Surgery? o {PARTNER} had a surgery for {MEDICAL CONDITION}, so he was at home for like, a week or two, just like, knocked out. And, I was taking care of him and doing all kinds of stuff, and…what happened? Okay, so…was it just a couple

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days before? Yeah, yeah it was, like, like four, three or four days earlier, okay, I had locked myself out of my car. And I was really frustrated [laugh]. And I had been…to kind of set the stage for this a little bit—I had been, for the past few months, I had been thinking about how I need to pay more attention. But, specifically more attention when I drive. Because I’d had a couple of little kind of, you know, moments where something that you should have noticed comes at you like, oh, where did that person come from? You know, just stuff like that.  You mean like, zone out? o Yeah, exactly, zone out kind of stuff. And also because I was, I had been drinking my oatmeal on my way to work in my car, so I’d be drinking out of a mug. So, I’ve got like this other thing in my hand, the radio’s going, there’s rush hour traffic and all this other stuff. And just, occasionally, I had just a couple close-calls, and I was like, you know what? You really need to pay more attention. Like, stop being so [vocalizes] sort of person. And um, so, I locked myself out of my car, which I do probably three times a year. I actually use my AAA membership, I really do.  Can be really helpful. o Oh God! And, just so obnoxious, but yeah, I definitely use my—maybe not three times. I call AAA, so usually it’s like flat tire, locked myself out, you know, whatever. But it happens to me more than it happens to other people in my general group. Like, most people in my group are like, “How did you….” But so…four days before this, this pivotal event, I had locked myself out of my car, and I didn’t realize it until I had an entire grocery cart full of food, that was melting.  Of course. o And I’m like, just so pissed at myself. And {PARTNER} is at a conference in {CITY}, so he’s not even in town, it’s not like he can come and bail me out. And he’s like hours away from being home, and I, and because he’s in the middle of a conference, his phone is turned off and I can’t—and like, and I’m like calling everybody who may have a key to like [laugh], because oh, it was just like one thing after another, so. So f—the AAA guy gets there…after I had to renew my

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membership, because I had let my membership lapse. I had just bought a ton of groceries, and then I had to call these people, and then they’re like, “Oh, your membership’s lapsed,” and I’m going oh my God. So there’s like a hundred more dollars to get, to come to the—so yeah, it was a pretty upsetting day. But [coughs], and the part that was really upsetting also was, normally, in the past, when I’ve locked my keys in my car, I’ve like dropped them, and their like right on the seat, or they’re like in between the door and the seat, like in the little nooky spot. And I couldn’t see them; they weren't where they normally were, like, they weren’t down where my feet are, they weren’t on the seat, they weren’t next to the seat. And I was like, oh my God, where the hell are my keys? Because I’m thinking, even if I get into my car, can’t turn the car on, can’t get into my apartment to put all my groceries away, let the dogs out. I’m like, what the f— what the hell’s going on? So, I’m getting really upset. And then, the guy gets there, and he sees that I’m upset, and he’s like, “It’s okay, we’ll get you taken care of, we’ll pop this door open in no time.” And I was like, “Yeah, but I don’t know where they are! [simulates crying].” You know. And he’s like, “Well, did you check the ignition?” And I kind of went, “Uh?” I was like, “No, but I wouldn’t have left the keys in the ignition of the car.” So he drives the car around, and that’s exactly where they are. And because I’d never done that before, in all the times that I’ve locked myself out of my car, I didn’t even look there. I looked at all the other places that I normally look.  Sure. o And so, I was like [large sigh]! I was so relieved. I can get in, I can let my dogs out, I can put my frozen food in the fridge, I’m so relieved. [clears throat] So not, like I said, three days later…[laughs, then speaks quietly], oh my God, this is so frustrating! This happened again.  Oh no! o Except this time…I’m in the car. Okay? I had just gone to get him [motions to dog] his special doggy food from PetSmart. I [laugh] let myself in the car, I put the bags and my purse over the passenger side, and I’m like, and I’m sitting down in the driver’s side, and I go to like, turn the car on, and the keys aren’t there.

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And I’m like, oh, that’s weird. So I’m like, oh, I must have put them back in my pocket, just like reflexively, you know. So, not in my pocket. I was like, what? And so, I check my other pocket, I check my purse, I look—I was like, oh, maybe I dropped ‘em, down there, I look under there, I open up the door, I look outside the car, I look—I’m like, what the—I’m IN THE CAR! How did I—I’M IN THE CAR!  You got in somehow! o I know, like, how does this happen?! And I—because this had just happened, and I knew the keys were there somewhere, I just had them, I got so frustrated. And I was just like—I did something unusual in that I was like, [laugh] again, I was like shouting at the world. I was like, I was yelling, actually, talking-yelling, out-loud. I was like, “What is the point of this?! What are you trying to show me?! I just went through this three days ago! There’s no point to this! I don’t understand what you’re trying to—!” You know, that whole thing.  Yeah. o And…[sigh, clears throat]. And in the midst of my “Rrrrr!” You know. Like, I’m crying, I’m yelling, out-loud, in a parked car, in a parking lot, broad daylight, people walking by [laughing]. People must have been like, oh, crazy lady. But um, I’m like, “What is the point of this?! I just went though this. What is the point of this?! What can you possibly be trying to teach me right now?” And that’s, that’s when I heard the same thing, like, “You’re not paying attention.” [pause] And, did the exact same thing, I was like, “[vocalizes]—oh.” [laughs] You know? Just, cut me off, mid-rant.  So, those words—“You’re not paying attention?” o Yes. “You’re not paying attention.” And it was the exact same thing. It was that quiet, sort of monotone, and very concise, and…. When I was talking to my mom, and eventually {PARTNER} about this, once he was out of his narcotic haze, I…I was like, it makes sense to me that there would not be a lot of elaboration and uh, like, flowery verbosity. [laughs] Because if you think about it, you know, as a higher intellect, if you’re trying to communicate to your dog, you know that their brain sort of works on this level, and so you’re like, “No!”

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“Bad!” It’s just very basic, you just really have to try to simplify and make it very basic. And so, I was like, it made sense to me that it was very, very concise and not like, “Well, we’ve ta—you’re not paying attention. Remember how you drive, and da da da da,” you know, it’s not like, it was just like, “You’re not paying attention.”  That sounds like it was very powerful and concentrated. o Yes, yes. Yes, very intense, very concise. But not like, not intense like someone’s yelling at you, but just like a…like, clear, like how a whistle cuts through the air. Like, there can be all kinds of things going on, but the whistle just cuts right through. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be loud, it’s just very pointed.  It doesn’t sound like a violent experience at all. o Oh no! No no. Not at all.  Just very clear. o It’s just like, you know, [laughs] its kind of, it was just kind of like, again, one of those poke, pay attention! You’re not paying attention. You know? And so I was like, “Okay, fine! I’m not paying attention, I’m clearly not paying attention!” You know, and I was like, “What good does that do me now?! I will try—how am I supposed to pay more attention?!” You know, and…because…the last time this happened, it was just kind of a like…just like a hey, kind of thing. and I didn’t, I was in no way trying to converse. It was just more of a oh yeah, like if somebody points, you’re like, oh yeah! You don’t like, try to converse with the hand that’s pointing. But this time, I was so frustrated that I was, um—although it definitely got my attention, uh, and got me to change directions a little bit, I was still frustrated enough that I was like, “FINE! What do you want?!” [mutual laughter] “OKAY! So WHAT?!” And, and normally, in the past, I had not actually gotten snarky with the powers-that-be. So this time, I was being cranky, and [laughs] um, emoting [laughs], and…. I—because for the past few months, I’d been thinking about, you know, you really need to pay attention, you really need to pay attention. And…yes, clearly. Um…I…I’d been trying to…I had this book called Wherever you go, there you are, by Jon Kabat-Zinn, and it’s sort of

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like mindfulness meditation. Like, where you are, focusing on exac—and not being like, oh I wonder if maybe I should go… and oh don’t forget to call…, you know, just trying to be very present.  Sure. o And, so, over these past few months as I’ve been occasionally thinking, you know, you really need to focus more. You’re flibberty-gibbid, you’re like all…. And I had loaned that book to a friend of mine, so I was like, I really need to get that book back. Because it was one of those things that I, I never actually read that book. I had that book, and I had every intention of reading that book, but then a friend of mine was like, “Oh, hey, I’ve been wanting to read that book,” and I was in the middle of a different book, so I was like, “Oh, here, borrow this book.” And then, that was ten years ago. So, um, I was like, man, I really need to get that book back from my friend. So, because that had been kind of going on sort of in the background of my brain for the past few months, I…that was what I immediately thought of when it was like, you know, you’re not paying attention. And I was like, “Well, I don’t know! How am I supposed to—I don’t even have the book! She’s got the book, I don’t have the book!” And I’m like, “How am I supposed to learn this anyway?” And, “And how would that even work?! I’m so slow, I do everything so slow already.” If I was focusing on every little—ooh, this is how my legs feel, this is what temperature it is, like, I wouldn’t get anything done in my life! You know? And, and when would I think about things? When would I…my brain doesn’t shut off. Like, and partly, and I have trouble sleeping because of that, so that’s another one of those things where you need to kind of, okay, just chill out. And um, so those all kind of work together, but. So I was thinking, okay, when would I, you know, think about my novel? When would I think about a good present to get for someone? Because you’re brain’s always kind of going. You’re doing the dishes, you’re not really thinking, hmm, I’m holding the sponge, the water is hot, these are bubbles. Like, you’re not doing that.  You can’t do it with everything all the time, yeah.

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o Yeah! So, at the time, I’m sitting there in the car, and I’m like, “I would never get anything done! When would I think about things?! And how am I supposed to learn?! I don’t even have the book! I don’t know how to do that!” No, I wasn’t saying, “How am I supposed to learn that?”, I was saying, “How am I supposed to do that?! I don’t know how to do that! How do you do—?” You know, and same thing: it was like, “Learn it.” It was like, “Get online, get a book. Learn it!”  “Learn it.” o It was, “Learn it.” Just, you know. And I was like [deep sigh]. And again, was still very irritated. I was like, “Ohh, like it’s so easy!” [mutual laughter] Just such a brat! And so, uh…[laugh]…at what point did I find my keys? I’m trying to remember. I’m having this annoyed, ranting conversation in my car, yelling at the world. At one point…when was it that I found my keys? I’m trying to remember at what point in that conversation that I found my keys. Because what happened was…oh, I can’t remember. But at some point in there…I looked down, and I’m sitting on my keys. I had looked down; there was nothing there. I had looked down; there was nothing there. I looked to the side, I looked to the side, I looked down, I looked outside the car, I looked everywhere, there was nothing there. And…as I’m in the middle of the [vocalizes], I happened to look down, and I see just the tippy-tips of the fan of my shopper cards, my little, the little plasticky thingies that you put on your—and, just for illustrative purposes, these are my keys [holds up large bunch of keys]. Okay?  Uh huh. o This is my fan that I saw just the teeny-weeny-weeny tips. And I was like, “Are you fucking kidding me? I’m sitting on my keys?” And [jingles keys], pointy metal keys—I am a hundred and twenty pounds. I do not have a very fat bottom, I wish I did, I have booty-envy. But how do you sit on sharp, metal objects this much, and not feel that you’re sitting on them? And so I was like, “Are you kidding me?!” Like, I [laughs]! And so I, I pull them out, and I’m looking at them, I’m like, “How did you not feel that you were sitting on your own damn keys?!” Like, and—  How did you not feel it?

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o I don’t know! [laughs] I still don’t know!  Okay. o It was like, it was insane. So I see them, and I’m like, like even if my weight was not on them, even just f—I can feel that. Like how do you put your weight on that and not feel that? And so, part of me was like, okay, somebody is trying to make a point to you. [laughs] And so, I was like, “Alright.” So then, I’m having this tearful rant, I decide, I’m in the middle of a parking lot, right outside of a PetSmart and a grocery store, crying, yelling, looking like a crazy person. And so I’m like, I need to go home and have this, this mental breakdown. So [laughs], I, I did this really, in retrospect, really audacious thing. Um, I put the keys in the car, and I turned the car on and [mumbles angrily]. I’m still like, “How am I supposed to learn? Right now, I should be, you know, how am I supposed to concentrate? Ooh, I’m making a left-hand turn,” you know, like….  So you’re continuing to talk, too. o Yes, I’m continuing to rant.  Okay. o At, at, you know, the powers-that-be. And…and I think I was already…yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah, because I, I was at the end of a lane, I was about to turn, when I…when I was complaining about, “Well, how am I supposed to do this? I’ll never get anything done.” Blah-blah-blah. That’s when I did, that’s when I heard the “Learn it.”  Okay. o And so, when I realized that I was not, that I was having a back-and-forth as opposed to me just going, “Rrrr!” You know. And I was like, okay, I…I need to concentrate on driving right now. I—we need to time-out, was basically my—I was like, okay—  You weren’t expecting a second response. o Y—no, I wasn’t. And so I was like, ‘Okay, if we’re going to do this, can we just wait until I get home? Because I’d really rather not die because I was talking to you while I was supposed to be driving.’ So I basically made a time-out. And then—which was respected, which was observed, oddly. So then I get home.

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And I’m, you know, I’m a blithering, frustrated mess, and I know that {PARTNER} is on the couch. And he is incredibly perceptive as far as—he can read me like a book.  Okay. o So, I was obviously upset. I knew he would be like, “Honey?” So I was like, just let me get past {PARTNER}, just let me get past {PARTNER}, and I was like creeping in, and he was dead knocked out, total narcotic coma on the couch. And I was like, oh, thank God. So I go [coughs], I go into the bedroom, and the last time I had prayed really hard, I was at the foot of my bed, back when I was in college. And so, I go into this bedroom, in here, and, I was going to go to the same basic spot. But then I realized, if {PARTNER} wanted to go to the b— {PARTNER} got up to go to the bathroom, he would see me, or walk right past me. And I didn’t want that. So I went around the bed so that I was in-between the wall and the bed, so I was down on the floor. And I was like, and then I proceeded to start crying and crying and crying. And I’m like, you know, and that sort of frustration spiraled into me being upset because I felt I was in a very similar situation.  Similar to…? o To the, the last time that I prayed-prayed-prayed really hard-hard-hard. Because I didn’t, I didn’t have a job, I was frustrated, and taking care of {PARTNER} was kind of taking a toll on me, and all this stuff, and so I went into this sort of self- deprecating spiral where I was sort of [vocalizes], you know. And I felt—over the years, because I knew I messed up that first time, when I didn’t do what I was supposed to do—  For the book? o Yes. Over the years, I had said, I had prayed many times, saying I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I’ll do it, I swear, I’ll do it. Just tell me, just one more time, just tell me, just give me one more “That way,” one more time. I promise, I promise, I’ll do it this time. And I had said that promise and prayed that prayer…hundreds of times since then. Okay? So I was basically doing the exact same thing. And this one, though, I actually got an answer again, which I

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wasn’t expecting. And it was the absolute thing that I didn’t want to hear. Um…I was like, you know, I feel lost again, I don’t know where to go, I don’t know what to do. I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, I screwed up last time. I swear, I swear, I swear I’ll listen this time, I swear, I promise, I promise I’ll listen this time. You know, just like, doing that same sort of crying, supplicating thing. [pause, then quiet laugh] This still kills me. So…I’m kneeling down, on the floor, leaning against the bed, and my heads bowed down, so I’m looking at the bedspread, like the box spring, leaning my head against the mattress. And…and I was like, I promise, I promise, I promise, I promise, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. And then, my brain [laugh], I thought, I thought [laugh], I thought, almost like…I don’t know how you actually say it out loud, I’ve only read it. Like, sotto voce? Like, in a play, like if they kind of say da da da off to the side of the audience, like a little blah blah blah kind of thing. I’m like, oh, I promise, I promise, [quieter] as long as it’s not this one thing. And then it was like, “That.” And I went, “N-no, no-no-no, I was just kidding! I didn’t mean that! That was the, that wasn’t—!” I just completely, I was like, “No! No-no-no-no! No, no, I was just—that, that wasn’t the thing, that was the thing that I didn’t want, and that couldn’t possibly be what—because I wouldn’t do that,” and you know.  So the voice said, “That.” o “That.”  The one word. o “That.” And I went, “O-oh,” because again, that was the very thing that I didn’t want.  Right. o So to have someone say…that one was like, “No, no-no-no-no-no, that was the one—,” you know, again, I was reacting very strongly, I was like, “No, no-no-no- no-no.” And then…um…the thing that I thought of, that anything but hm, was the, the energy work, the healing work, the energy work stuff. [pause, sigh]  That you would begin to practice that for yourself, or that you would become a practitioner for others? o Like, practitioner—pursue that. That’s what you need to be doing. That.

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 As a profession. o Yes.  I see. o That’s what you need to be doing.  Okay. o And I was like, “Noo! No-no-no-no!” [laugh] Because, um…well, I can explain why later, but—so the whole time, I’m going, I’m in like…leg-locked denial, like no-no-no-no-no-no, this can’t be what you meant. You wouldn’t have—no, that can’t possibly be. You know, whatever. [clears throat] And it was like, “Yes.” I was like, “Noo, no-no-no-no-no!” [laughs] And, and I—oh God, that was so hard—um…I—not long after that, that’s when I started doing recordings. Kind of explaining a lot of this and talking about this, a lot of this. Because…I was like no no-no-no-no, and then it was like, “You promised.” And, it wasn’t just a, it wasn’t just a “you promised.” It wasn’t just that promise—it was the hundreds of times that I had promised. That I had promised over and over and over and over again, for years, please-please-please, I promise I promise I promise.  Just one more chance… o Yeah, just one more time, just tell me one more time, I promise I promise I’ll do it, I promise I promise, I won’t—I won’t screw it up like I did last time. And I had made that promise so many times. Not just in that one event, but just—it had the weight of hundreds of promises.  Right. o And so it was just like—I was just—I was sooo devastated. And I was just crying, and crying, and crying. And I was like, “Why? Why are you doing this to me? Why? Why do you…why are you punishing me? Why? [tearful] Why do you want to take everything from me?” Because…[sigh] um…. Because I know how…I know how the world sees…people…um…like me. People…like people…say they can work with energy and see things and. And I have lived, I’ve chosen to live a very intellectual life. And my friends, you know, my mother, my brother—like, these are very intellectual people. And, so, doing the kind of stuff that I was being told this is what you need to do, is basically

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like…you’re going to lose your friends, you’re going to lose your family, you’re going to—people are going to think you’re crazy. People are going to…. When you’re an intelligent person, you…you like—I like that when I say something to someone, and, like, make a point about something, that they’ll, you know, they’ll think about it, and that it has a level of validity. But…  There’s some weight behind it. o Yeah, yeah, that it’s credible, that you have credibility. That people see you as an intelligent person and you have credibility when you speak. And if you turn into woo-woo crazy cat lady, when you say something, people automatically…you can see just, like a curtain goes across the back of their eyes. And you can just see them go, “Oh, you’re one of those.” Like, you can just—I can literally just see— like, you’re talking, having a normal conversation with a complete stranger about a book, or a movie, or whatever, and then they say, “Oh, what do you do?” And y—and they say, “Oh, well, I work at the court downtown.” And they go, “Oh, what do you do?” “Oh, I heal people with light and energy, and I talk to people that you can’t hear, and I see things you can’t see, and I can do things that you can’t feel and that you don’t even think are real.” And then they go, “Ohhh, that’s nice,” and then they kind of scoot away from you a little bit. And so basically, not only am I thinking I’m going to lose my friends, I’m going to lose my family, but it’s also, like, willingly becoming a social pariah, when you have lived your life as an intelligent person. And all of a sudden, you’re going to be, you’re going to be one of those people now.  Dismissed. o Yeah. [sigh] And…so, I was really—that’s why I was so upset. And…I…again, this very [soft laugh] um, I can’t think of the right word. The only one I can think of is Yiddish, and that’s chutzpah—there’s like a ballsy, like, brash sort of who the hell do you think you are? kind of—even though I had gotten this very clear directive, I was like “No-no-no-no.” And I was like, “That couldn’t have been what you meant. I was just—that was just me, I was just thinking that, and so I clearly misinterpreted you—that couldn’t possibly have been what you meant.” And so I was trying really hard to back-pedal and get away from it. [sigh/laugh]

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Oh God. And so I, I did a bunch of tests. God, the arrogance of that is mind- blowing, but I was like, “Okay, if that’s what you really meant, show me this, or do blank,” or whatever. And the arrogance of that is pretty staggering, first of all, but second of all, I did that for probably twenty minutes. I did test, after test, after test, after test, after test, after test, so that it was so, so clearly not even remotely possibly an accident or a miscommunication or anything like that. And—  What kind of tests? o Um…they were, um, visual tests, um. Because as I’m thinking, as I’m saying no- no-no-no-no…I, part of my rejection was, I don’t want to see things, I don’t want to hear things. I don’t want to be this person, I don’t want to live this life, I don’t want, I don’t want, I don’t want, I don’t want. And, um, because…I’ve been able to…I’ve been able to feel and sort of manipulate…I’ve been able to feel energy ever since I was a kid—[phone rings] That would be the husband. Hold on just a second.  Sure. o [on phone] Hey honey, I’m still talking to Emily. Can I call you back? . Uh, sure, I wanted to see how it was going [unintelligible]. So anyway, I love you, I’m going to class tonight, I’ll see you when I get home. o Okay, love you, too. By-eee! [ends call] So. Um…and [sigh] I could see, I could see auras, but I didn’t want any part of that. I didn’t want to—because I knew how people treated those people, and—  Had you seen that, or witnessed that in your life? o Yeah, I mean it was just, y-yeah, like those…and it wasn’t even necessarily from my family, just like, the world in general. Those people are crazy people, you know?  The cultural idea? o Yeah! We live in a very intellect-logical-linear sort of world, and I didn’t want to be one of the crazy people. And so I pushed that away, I always pushed all that away, and I went a different direction.  So it sounds like you maybe ignored a lot of your experience? o Yes.

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 So things you would see, you would not pay attention to. o Yes, yes. And—because I didn’t want, I didn’t want. And when I would hear stories about, like [sigh] people, other people seeing things, I was like actively, I will not, I will not, you know. So…it was [sigh]…it wasn’t just the energy work. It was everything. It was that you have to [tearful]…um…be this person that you don’t want to be, and you’ve tried your whole life to not be, and so I was so upset. I was like, I don’t want, I don’t want to see things, I don’t want to do this. And…and um…I was, um…kind of, I was so upset, and I was kind of just, um…kind of…um, my eyes were open, but I was thinking so hard and feeling so much that I was kind of zoned out of, like, what was going on around me, even though my eyes were open. And, so…I was, I was leaning ahead against the mattress, and I was looking down at the box spring. And we just got a new bed, and so…I was just, I was crying, I was kind of shaking my head and my eyes were kind of just unfocused, because I was not really thinking about what I was seeing in my head. And, and I started to see, um…I started to—my brain— started making pictures out of the, the fabric that covered the box spring. It’s [clears throat]…it’s—I’m trying to think of how I can explain this…. Like, if you imagine, um…the…like sometimes, if I’m in a bathroom or something, where there’s tiles on the floor, and you know, the tiles are fake marble or they’ve got little designs or whatever. If you kind of zone out while you’re looking at something like that, your brain will make a picture of it. And usually, I would see faces, sort of like that Rorschach idea, your brain makes something where there isn’t something. And I would usually see faces, and they were never, they were very sad, sad—sad or hurt or crying or scared, or just not-good. So I, I didn’t—if I’d noticed that my brain was starting to make a picture of something, I would look away, or I would—because I—it was always bad, I didn’t want to see bad stuff. And so…I’m…I’m sitting there crying, and I’m kind of zoning out, and I’m looking at this thing, and I start to see, a…picture of a guy, except instead of it just being like a picture, like a still of a face, it was moving. And it was like— I’m trying to think of how to explain it. Like, if somebody makes…it’s kind of like animation…if somebody used sand to, like…this stuff is so hard to

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explain….. The fabric that covers the box spring is white. And there’s a weave in it, which is what gives it it’s multiple pieces, look of multiple pieces, even though it’s one piece of fabric, because of the weave and the way that the sun was hitting it, it looked like lots of tiny little tiles. And they started to move so that it was this guy. And I never, I’d never seen anything that moved before. It was always just like a still, like a picture. And I’d never seen anything, like, video-ish. And so, even though I was freaked out, and upset, and whatever, I st—I was…already emotionally drained enough that I was just like, “Well that’s different.” You know? [laugh]  Right, just taking it in. o It was just a very odd moment. And so I just watched, even though I—I don’t know why I did that, but…. It was of this guy—it’s so weird…it would be like if you were looking at the carpet, and you—it’s all practically the exact same color and the exact same, you know, whatever, but if somebody made a picture out of that, just using the very slight color differences of that or something.  Mhm, okay. o And, so it wasn’t like somebody wearing a green shirt with a red tie, it was all black-and-white-ish.  Okay. o And very pixilated-y, sort of. And it was this guy, he—what was he doing? Crouched down, and then he looked over his shoulder, and like, kind of started, and then he got up and he started to run. And then the camera was like, the point- of-view or perspective or whatever, was running—you see him from behind, he’s running. And then…and then the camera gets closer to him—so if you’re in the camera, you’re catching up to him, so he starts to get bigger even though he’s running away. And I felt like the closer the camera got to him, it felt scarier. And so I was like, I don’t want to see this. So I shut my eyes, I was like, I don’t want to see this stuff, I don’t want to see this. And so I’m just like, sitting there with my eyes closed so I don’t have to see that any more. And…with my eyes closed, I start seeing these color displays that kind of like fade in and out of each other. And that when I started doing the tests. And I was like, okay, if this is what you

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really want me to do, show me a circle. Circle. I was like, well that was just a coincidence. I was probably thinking that I wanted to see a circle, so of course my brain showed me a circle because I was just thinking about a circle, so of course—so that doesn’t count, that doesn’t count.  With your eyes closed? o Yeah. So that’s what I’m thinking as my eyes are closed, that doesn’t count, that was just a mistake, that was just an accident. And I did that over, and over. Okay, show me two circles. Show me a square. Show me purple. Show me a purple circle with a yellow center. Show me two concentric purple circles. Show me—like, over and over and over and over again. And every time I’m getting what I ask for, I just start crying harder, and harder, and harder. Because I’m like, no, I don’t want this, I don’t want this. And so I’m still trying really hard to not do—I’m still trying to find a way out, the whole time. And when it, when I finally give up, I’m just like, okay. I mean, I’ve tested it twenty times or so, and each time it’s exactly what I said it should be if that’s what you really want, blah blah blah. So then I get to the part where I’m like, I’m finally accepting, okay, I believe you, that’s what you want, that’s what you said. That’s when I’m doing the why. Why are you doing this? Why are you fucking up my life like this? And…and at one point…it’s like…I get the same sort of mental voice…and it said, “Because you’re wasting it.” And…it’s like, you’ve been given a gift and you’re wasting it. And [voice wavers]…I’m still railing, still why-why-why- why…and…and it said…the others were much more clipped, this one was a little bit longer, and I don’t remember quite specifically exactly what words. But it was basically along the lines of, “You could have been helping people this whole time, and you haven’t. You’re wasting it.” And…[sigh]. So, I’m like, “Okay.” At that point, I’d been crying for probably—Jesus—half hour? I don’t even know. Like, to the point where I’d been crying so hard I felt like I was going to throw up. Like if I didn’t stop crying, I was going to puke. I’d been crying so hard for so long. I was like, I need to just stop because I’m literally making myself ill. So I called my mom, who was thankfully in {CITY} up from {STATE} and not far away, and I was like, “I really need to talk to you. Something just happened—I’m

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okay, {PARTNER}’s okay, everything’s fine, but I really need to talk to you, I’m really upset,” and she’s like, “Okay.” So she comes down and we talk, and I explain everything to her.  Everything that happened? o [nods]  Had you told her before about the previous experiences? o Um…yyyessss…um, I, yeah yeah, I think I had, yeah.  Okay. o And [clears throat] I decided that—we are very close, she and I are very good friends. Which is, as I understand it, fairly common for parents of chronically ill children, they have an odd sort of bond. We’re much more like best friends than parent-child. And so, I thought I needed to talk to her because “A,” she’s my best friend, so of course, who else am I going to talk to but my best friend? And also that…[tearful] as long as I could keep her, I could do it. If I lost all the rest of my family, if I lost all my friends, I could handle it as long as…as long as I could keep her, I could do it. And I was so scared. Because she’s, you know, a very science-minded person, and I thought, she’s going to take me to an emergency room, she’s going to take me to an emergency room. And they’re going to commit me. And um, thankfully, she was amazing [laugh] about it, and was very understanding, and very supportive, and she was like, “You know, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing,” you know, “This could be a really good thing. Maybe you don’t know right now.” And so…I’ve been talking to her mostly about it. And then, when {PARTNER} wasn’t on narcotics anymore, I [sigh] again was totally terrified. Because he doesn’t even believe in God, he’s like an atheist. So as far as he’s concerned [laugh], this is all ridiculous. And, same thing. So great about it. [laugh] He was like, he said—he was raised {RELIGION}, had a very severe falling out with {RELIGION} and is now an atheist. And he actually said, “Energy stuff makes much more sense to me than religion.” He was like, “We are neurotransmitters and electrical impulses to our muscles,” and he’s like, “It makes perfect sense that there could be an energy field around a human being that maybe some people are more perceptive to than others,” and he was like, “That makes

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perfect sense to me, whereas religion makes no sense to me.” And I was like…[laugh]. I could not have been more surprised, like if he would have turned into a rabbit. But again, incredibly grateful for the support and not losing him in my life and—so I was like, thank G—okay, alright!  So none of the rejection you were expecting. o Not what I was expecting. But they all, they both had the same sort of “I don’t understand why you’re so upset” reaction—which also surprised me. But they were both like, “So you’re going to heal people with energy, and you’re going to—how is that a bad thing? Why is that a bad thing?” And I kind of explained to them, like I explained to you, that everybody thinks those people are nuts. Um…and then—but what I didn’t tell them was the reason why I was expecting…the thing that I thought would be the straw that broke the camel’s back would be the voices part. {PARTNER} was like, doesn’t believe in the voices. He says, “That’s just your intuition, that’s just like a different part of your unconscious-subconscious-super-id-blah,” I don’t know, whatever, but, “It’s something that’s just you talking to yourself, and that’s fine.” But he was okay with the energy things, so I was like, okay, I’ll take this one step at a time. Because I knew that—with the different energy attunements, there’s the first level, which I got seven years ago or something and then I never ended up doing anything with it. But that basically just lets you work on yourself pretty much, maybe some other people. But the second level energy attunement is a much bigger deal. It means you are a master and it means you can work on yourself and other people, and that you can do distance healing.  Mhm. o Which is another thing where most people are like, “Ohh, okay…you’re going to bend space and time…,” you know. And one of the other aspects of—at least, as I’ve talked to the other energy work practitioners in the area—the…a very common experience when you get the second level attunement is that you meet your guides. Your spirit guides. Which is the same thing of the crazy, and people talking to you who aren’t really there, and feeling things that other people can’t feel, and seeing things that other people can’t see, and um. And that was the part

181 that I was afraid would be the straw that broke the camel’s back. And so, I hadn’t gotten the second level attunement because I was like, I’m [laugh], I haven’t told anybody but my husband and my mom. I haven’t told any of my friends, haven’t—I’m still really struggling with it, and so I didn’t want to open the door to more crazy. And [clears throat] then—so, that’s where I was when I talked to {FRIEND}, when {FRIEND} was like, “Hey, I’ve got this person, dadadada.” And I was like, sure, I’ll hear about other people. About a week after that, though, I went to a lecture by this energy work expert. And then he also had an intensive seminar, but I have no money, so only went to the free talk the evening before. And it was a really good—it was exactly what I needed to hear, because I—I felt like my energy was fading, and I couldn’t feel it as much. I used to feel it really strongly, and then it was just slowly over time it was kind of fading. And I was like, I need to be recharged, I need to get defibrillated or something. And— but then I went to his lecture, and he was like, “No, this work starts with you working on you. It’s a big mistake that people get energy attunements and start working on other people first. People start working on other people way too soon. You need to work on yourself. Meditate, clear out your gunk, you need to work on you a lot before you start working on other people. But because it feels good and you want to help people, and you like to feel it, it feels nice and warm and tingly, and you like that. People naturally sort of gravitate towards doing that. But he was like, “No, you have to do the work, you have to work on yourself first.” And I was like, that was exactly what I needed to hear because I was going more an external route. No, you need to work on yourself. And then [cough], there was a guy that I spoke with after that lecture, and he…was that March tenth, I think? Tenth or eleventh? It was Sunday. That was the first energy work event that I went to in {CITY}. It’s where I met all these people and started volunteering and figuring out, I need to read books, I need to go—I need to do stuff. Learn about my chi. And at that retreat, one of the guys that worked on me, his name was {MAN}. And his energy was palpably different than everyone else’s. Everyone else’s was kind of…very similar. It’s warm, it’s comforting, it’s relaxing, it’s a little tingly. But his was like a heat lamp. His was really strong, I

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mean it was very very different than everyone else’s. So I spoke with him, because I was like, who mentored you, who did your attunement? I’m trying to figure out why he’s so different than everybody else. And so he explained, he was like, “Well, I don’t—I kind of went my own way. I do any specific kind of energy work per se, and I don’t use the symbols the way that they use it. I just sort of—I’ve been more of a spiritual amoeba. I’ve just kind of, oh, I’ll take a little of that, I’ll take a little of this,” and he kind of does his own thing. And that’s kind of what’s a bit more unique to him is kind of what I’ve tried to figure out. So, after that lecture, I talked to the guy afterwards. And I was asking him about these guides, because that’s the part that really freaks me out. And I said, “So how does that happen? What did you d—do they just show up one day like, ‘Hey, neighbor!’ How—what did you do to do—did that happen with your attunement? What is that about?” And he actually gave me his names—which was interesting, um…  The names of his spirit guides? o Mhm.  Okay. o Um, and I said, “So how did you—where did they come from? When did you find them?” And he was like, “I just asked.” And I went, oh, well there’s an idea. And he sort of imitated it, he imitated himself when he did it. He said, “I basically just put my hands out and said, ‘I am open to receiving guidance and I— basically just show me what you want to show me, I’m open to it,” basically was what he did. So I was like, oh, well that’s pretty easy. So [clears throat] the next morning, I’m lying in bed, and I tried to turn the volume up on my energy, see if I could feel it. And then still, really just, like weak and kind of like eh, like not really strong. And I was like [sigh]. So I’m laying there in bed and I go, aw, what the hell? So I put my hands out like this [laugh], and I say out loud, “Okaaay…[laugh], I would like to meet you? And I’m open to communicating with you…,” and I’m like, kind of fumbling my way through a really sad and pathetic invitation. And then, later that day, I got a lot more than I bargained for. Um…[laugh]…I don’t remember an exact moment, like all of a sudden something

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was there and something wasn’t. It was sort of gradual…but, I felt like I, like, my guides were talking to me in my head—not hearing with my ears, but like, in my head.  The same way that the other voice… o The same, same way—same mechanism, but different presentation. Because this one—whereas the other one was one, felt like one entity, very, very androgynous, very calm, very, you know, whatever. Very sparse, very concise. [clears throat] Very gentle. This felt like a Greek choir. Like, I don’t know if you—Greek plays, there was always like this narrating chorus, like off to the side.  Mhm, yeah. o And although it was one sound, it felt like it was coming from multiple voices, like a choir does. Like if a choir—if a group of people is all saying the exact same thing at the exact same time—  In unison. o Yeah, unison, it all sounds like it’s in unison.  Uh huh. o And so, it sort of similarly was androgynous because it was so much together, there was no figuring out one from the other or which was which. But it was—so this has been an exceedingly recent experience—and it was also…very disturbing, because um…uh…I had this idea that the guides that these people were talking to would be like me talking to you, or like a radio or something, like, out here, farther away. But this little Greek chorus I had going on was, like, deep in my head, and immediate. Like, [sigh]…  Like, right after you asked to meet them? o Not—no, not like that, because it took—I mean, it was like a few hours later that I was like, “Is that me, is that—is that you guys? Did you show up?” I don’t know. It wasn’t immediate. But once I started paying attention to it, it like, um, became more, um, noticeable? And what bothered me about it was, I thought that there would be a distance. I thought that it would be, like, I would ask a question, and like, should I have the chicken or the fish today? Or, you know—something obviously not that trivial and ridiculous—but, that sort of, kind of communication.

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Like I say something, there’s a second, they respond. I was expecting that, and that was not what I got at all. This whole process has been a hilarious adventure in “be careful what you wish for.” Um [clears throat], what happened was, like…I did a recording on this one, too, because it was just so disturbing—but [clears throat], what it feels like—what it felt like—I have not asked them back since, because it was very disturbing. Um, you have kind of like reflexive, fast thoughts. Like, the way that you have a reflex when the doctor cracks your knee, your leg goes out before you even think to make it go out or know that it’s going out. It’s just, it’s that fast.  Mhm. o So [clears throat], there are like—the way that I sort of think about how I think, is there’s like my deep brain that has really automatic, fast thoughts. And then there’s my middle brain that kind of thinks about those thoughts, like oh Diane, that wasn’t very nice, you don’t know what this person’s going through, don’t be such a bitch. You know, like that kind of stuff. And then you have—and then I have, in my conception of it, I have the higher brain, which is like meta-Diane, which is me thinking about how I think about things. So it’s like you’ve got this initial kind of automatic, no-control, bleh part of your brain, and then you’ve got the, okay, I need to process that, what do I want to—what do I think? You know, do I really want to, meh—you know, and then you’ve got the other part, the top part, that’s like, why do you always think like that? What does that say about you? You know [laugh], like that kind of thing.  Right. o And this Greek chorus was responding to my really deep-deep-deep brain stuff.  Huh! o And it was fast. It was like…before—like, before I was even finished with a thought, they were responding. It was really fast, and really, like…intrusive, and claustrophobic, and like, whoa—what—get—  Too close? o Way too close, way too close! And the part that [laugh]—I called {MAN}, who was the guy that I had talked to the night before who told me about how he had

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asked for his guides. I called him mid-freakout, just like, “Oh my God, I don’t like this,” you know, and what I said to him was, “I can’t lie to them.”  Hmm… o And he, he laughed! Like, “Well, of course not! Of course you can’t lie to them! They’re your guides; why would you even want to lie to them?” And what I was trying—what I was not saying very well at the time, because I was crying and freaking out, was…there’s a distance that you have to people.  Yeah. o And you can present the self that you want them to perceive.  You can choose. o Yes, you can choose how, like what you show them. And I was expecting there to be that sort of distance. I was expecting—I wasn’t expecting them to be like right up in my face. I…th—…it wasn’t like I could…ask a qu—think, oh, I wonder if I should—well, maybe I’ll ask: so, guys, blah-blah-blah, should I have the chicken or the fish? It was more like a—as soon as I thought something, they responded to it, and they completely called me out on my bullshit. Like, I couldn’t—there was no…part of what was really bothering me about it was I didn’t have my sense of myself as an individual. Like, this me, and that’s you. It was like, they were so close, and immediate, and all-knowing, that even [laugh], even when…I tried to…communicate something to them that I knew was tru— that I knew wasn’t true, they would call me out on it immediately. They’d be like, “That’s a lie.”  It’s like they were right inside you, and knew it all, saw it all. o Yeah, yeah! And that level of, like, I felt vulnerable, and like—I can’t—I can’t remember the word that I used in the recording. I felt almost like colonized. I don’t know, I felt like my—my individual integrity had been compromised or something.  Right. o And it was really not pleasant. And it wasn’t that they were mean or anything. They were just right here. You know, and I was like, “Whoa! Back up!”  The proximity was just so uncomfortable…

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o Yeah, yeah! And—because at one point, I was starting to get just really upset. And I was like, “You need to go. I, like, I’m revoking your invitation! You need to go now.”  How long were they there? o Um, hmm…I want to say, it was a couple of hours. It was a long time.  And was it a constant commenting, like nonstop? o Yeah, yeah.  Okay. o And that—but the thing was, it wasn’t…I’m very grateful [laugh]…they were not mean, they were not judgmental, they were not…they were just honest, and present, and like…  Saying anything helpful? o Yeah, they were very helpful! Um, but it…it was just too close! I—they were very, um…like, encouraging, and supportive, and—but honest, really really honest. And at one point—like, when I was saying, “Okay, I’m starting to freak out, and you need to go now,” there was kind of just sort of this, “Well, but you don’t really want us to go. There’s a part of you that—I mean yes, you are uncomfortable, but there’s a part of you that’s interested in this and that wants us to be here.” And I was like, “I know! But just go!” You know, like, even though they weren’t being mean or like intrusive—although they really were intrusive, but it’s, it’s different, um…  What they were saying was accurate… o It was true, but—so at that point, I changed what I was saying, I was like, “Okay, you’re right, there’s a part of me that is finding this incredibly fascinating, but there’s another part of me that is really freaking out, and I’m really confused, and so I just need you to respect that I’m confused and I need you to go now.” And then they were like, “Oh, okay.” [laugh]  And they did? o They—here’s the funny thing. Then they were kind of like, “Oh,” you know, “okay.” But then they would [laugh], but then I kept asking them back, and I kept asking them questions, and they kept being like, “Well now do you want us to go

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or not?” And I’m like, “Okay, you’re right, never mind, go away, I don’t want to talk to you anymore.” [laugh]  Okay. Is this the same day? o Yeah, just that, during that time. It took me like, kind of, I want to say it took me, mmm, maybe ten minutes to really close the door hard.  Okay. o Because I would say, “No-no-no, go away,” and so they’d be like, “Alright,’ you know, and then they’d kind of fade back. But then I’d be like, “Oh, but what about—,” and then they’re like, “Well, do you want us here or don’t you?” You know, kind of like, “You say go, you say come, you say go, you say come—make up your mind.” And so finally, I just had to be like, “Right now—I will call you back later. Right now, I just need you to go right now. This is just, it’s a little too much too quickly, I just need some space. I just need a little space.” And they were like, “Okay.” You know, and—but it took me being very clear about my intention, and being able to communicate that clearly and honestly—because I couldn’t lie to them—before they kind of transitioned away. And…and…I haven’t invited them back since, because I’m like, that was really, really, really, really intense. And I’m so glad I was able to call {MAN} and that he was able to kind of talk me down. And…that was the part that I was afraid of. That was the part that I was like, okay, that’s the—that’s the crazy-maker. I mean, really, when you come down to it, that’s the crazy-maker. And so, when that happened, I talked to {PARTNER} about that not long after, and um…he, again, was surprisingly cool about it. Didn’t think that I was talking to anyone but my own intuition. Didn’t think that I was talking to anyone but myself. But he was like, “So you’re trying to—you’ve been denying this stuff your whole life, and so this process is you trying to, you know, embrace your intuition and stop trying to push all this stuff away and just kind of experiencing it,” and…he was very cool about it. I still haven’t talked to my mom about it. And then…then…I started imagining this conversation with you. I started thinking, well, if I were her, what kind of questions would I ask me? And so, the first thing that occurred to me was, um…as I’ve been looking through all the reading lists and books and

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checking out all kinds of stuff on and whatever, one of the books that I saw that I want to get that I haven’t gotten is called, the title of it is Psychic or Psychotic? The Memoir of a Happy Medium. And I’m like, yep! So—and so I’ve been thinking about the difference between psychosis and—like what we’re defining as psychotic—and psychic and the other perception-iness. And I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. And, so when I was thinking about the conversation that I was having with you, I was sort of anticipating that you would be like, “So, what makes you not schizophrenic?” Um, and in my head, I was going, “Well, you know, I think it’s probably just because I only have this one thing that is under the schizophrenia umbrella, and I can still function in the real world, and whatever. And then [clears throat], then I actually looked up schizophrenia, because I thought, well, I actually don’t technically know what—I only know from my experiences working in the emergency room when people would have psychotic breaks and they would come in, and then I would be like, well I’m definitely not that. So that’s kind of what I was thinking in my head schizophrenia was.  Sure. o And then I looked it up. And I freaked out. Because I was reading this stuff that was not as crazy as I thought it was supposed to be. I thought, like, that should be like, way over there, like, so clearly not in touch with reality, just like, really way way over there. And instead, the stuff that I was reading…you could make a case for, you know, delusional, thinking you have powers that other people don’t have, hearing voice, seeing things. I mean, you know, I was reading all this stuff, and I was like, oh. Oh shit. Oh shit! SHIT! Like, everything I read, I was like, with the exception of like, the negative s—the negative stuff, like, “I want to kill people” and “there are people after me” and, you know, that kind of stuff, the paranoid schizophrenia type of stuff.  Right. o But pretty much everything else, I was like, oh shit, oh shit. Oh shit! And so, by the time I’m done reading—like, I checked three or four different websites, because I’m like, well maybe that’s just what that person thinks. [laugh] So I check like three or four different websites. And I’m like, ohhhkay, that’s really

189 disturbing, I’m really disturbed now. So I was crying, and I was crying, and I was crying. And I was like, how do I know I’m not? I could be. Maybe—and if I was crazy, of course I wouldn’t think I was crazy. People who are crazy don’t think they’re crazy, they think they’re fine. You know, and so I’m like crying and, and I was sitting here thinking, like, I had kind of a Matrix moment, where…it was like, what if all this stuff that you think you feel and see and— whatever, what if all that’s just your brain misfiring? What if this is all bullshit? And you’re just—you’re crazy? You’re a crazy person, and that’s why all this is happening? And I, I literally felt cold inside. Like, my whole world just kind of went, just like, twenty degrees to the left. Because it had, it had never occurred to me, that had never occurred to me. I was like, well of course I can feel this. I mean, I’m sorry that you can’t, but I can, so, that’s my reality, so, you know. I really hadn’t occurred to me that, no really, that this could be crazy land. And so, I’ve been reading a lot [laugh] about schizophrenia lately. And um, and I actually, just last night in fact, I was upset about something else I was talking to {PARTNER} about…. I hadn’t, I hadn’t talked to {PARTNER} yet about reading the schizophrenia signs and symptoms list and going oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, oh SHIT! You know, like, as I’m going down the list. And, and so I kind of explained, kind of a little bit, kind of explained a little bit, and then I watched— there was this Lifetime movie in five parts about mental health, there were five different diagnoses that were covered. And the first one was schizophrenia, and then the next one was bipolar. And then when I realized it wasn’t a movie about schizophrenia, that I was a movie about, like, these little vignettes about mental health, I was like, oh, this isn’t what I thought it would be, so that’s not what I want to watch. But I watched…I watched that last night with him, and {PARTNER} was like, “Is this—are you going to be okay watching this? Is this going to really upset you?” And I was like, “Well, but I really want to see it before she comes tomorrow because I want to know, like, I want to know more, and I want to be able to, like, make sense of this in my head.” And I’m watching—the movie was called…something like You can call me crazy, or Call me crazy, or something like that—anyway. But um, the first segment was

190 schizophrenia, and it was Brittany Snow, and she’s a law student, and she has a psychotic break, and go into the hospital and whatever. And, and the way that the movie portrayed her hearing, hearing the voices, when she had her psychotic break in the law library…I was kind of like, ohhhhh. And…but she—it wasn’t just the voices, she also, like…the world around her changed as well. And um…but…the part…. {FRIEND} was so sweet. Yesterday, I volunteered at the, the food pantry where the three of us, every Wednesday, work and give free energy therapy to people. I mentioned to her that I had looked up schizophrenia and I was a little disconcerted. And she goes, “Well, did you look at the DSM? Because if you’re just looking at, like, Wikipedia or something, you should really look at—like, maybe that’s not,” you know, whatever. [clears throat] Because, again, I was asking them about their guides. I was like, “Okay, so, I need to know more about this, because I’m kind of freaking out about this.” And {FRIEND} was like, “Yeah, I don’t really view that…,” and {OTHER FRIEND} was like, “Well, sometimes I kind of feel like, uh, you know,” she’s like, “and sometimes when I’ve attuned my student, my students have, you know feel like they’ll hear something or see something,” or whatever. [sigh] And I was like, “Okay, so it’s not like you’re—you and {OTHER FRIEND’S SPIRIT GUIDE} don’t, like, talk all the time,” whatever, and she’s like, “No.” [laugh] Then I was like, “Alright then.” So I need to probably call {MAN} again, ask him about his situation, but. So I check out the—so this morning, before you came over [cough], I pulled the DSM, and I started reading it again, and it was very similar to what I had already read, and so I was like, oh FUCK. And, the part…the part that, that bothered me the most about the description was…the um—I thought that schizophrenics had psychotic breaks. Like, they’re functional, functional, functional, something happens, and they’re like [swooshing sound], their whole life just goes whah. And—because that’s what I saw in the emergency room. They would come in and they’d be saying they were Jesus Christ, and you know, they’d be restrained or whatever, and I’d be—and then their family member, who is just devastated, would be like, “She was just fine! I don’t unders—what’s happening? I don’t understand.” And the part that I read that made me…uh, nervous, was…it said

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that it can happen gradually. And I was like, wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to be like a [snaps fingers], like a…psychotic break. Like a [slapping sound] kind of thing. And then, it talked about, like, other men—other mental health issues, and I’ve had depression for so long, and been on medication for depression for so long. Which is actually where my, my flightiness, not-paying- attention thing came from, is I was on—I’ve been on Wellbutrin for a long time. And uh, my mom has found that Wellbutrin and Celexa both combined give her a good result. And so I had tried that. And over time, I’ve had to keep upping the doses of these things. And so, at one point, I was like, well let’s just up the Celexa, leave the Wellbutrin where it is. And my psychiatrist is a really, really great guy. Very—appreciates that I think about these things, and that I’m not just like, Hey, let’s just try Lithium today! You know. So we increased the Celexa, but it fried my brain. It turned me into a complete space cadet.  It’ll do that. o Like, I, I would like, “Why did I walk into this room?” Like, I became such a space cadet, to the point where people were literally like, “Are you okay? What’s going on with you? You’re really out of it.” And so I was like, I need to go off that shit entirely. Because if, if that’s doing that, I don’t want any part of that. And so, we went, I completely got off the Celexa entirely, but my brain isn’t back to where it used to be yet.  It takes a long time. o It’s been like months. And so, I’m like—and that’s partly where the you’re-not- paying-attention, you’re-being-too-flighty, you’re-not-paying-attention, you know, like, you need to get you’re brain back sharp again. So that’s—there’s been a lot of stuff happening all at once—and when I’m looking at the schizophrenia stuff, I’m going—I went to this…the {MEDICAL CENTER}, they are sort of like complementary health care for people who have lots of health stuff—like me, who…Western medicine is giving me lots of Band-Aids, but I keep needing more and bigger Band-Aids. Like, I have tons of health problems, tons of health problems. Which, the people in the psychic community say, [spoken with a lisp] “Well that’s because you’ve been ignoring your gift and

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pushing it away, and that’s what happens.” But anyway. Like, three autoimmune disorders, tons of, like, just bleh. Asthma, allergies, COPD, just like a mess, my whole life. And so, I go to this, this integrated medicine guy recently, and he was like—and I give him just my…I don’t know if you can see it from here. Up on top of that bookshelf, it says “Diane’s Medical Chart?” [points to a 3-inch-thick 3- ring binder across the room]  Yeah, I see that, yeah. o That is ten years of my medical chart. That’s it, just ten. And I took that in to him, and I was like, “This is a good bit—this is a fairly good representation.” And it’s got like, you know, infectious diseases, and just like, all these different tests, just craziness.  Wow. o And he just looked at it, and he was like, “Wow.” [laugh] He was like, “Okay. There are two main things that are going wrong with you physically, and those things are creating havoc, and if you deal with those two main things, a lot of this other stuff is going to subside.” And the two things that he said was that I have this…my immune system, my allergic response, is just off-the-chart, like, I, I react to everything in the outer world, I react to myself, I—it’s just off the chart. And he said, “And, because of all the medications you’ve been on your whole life, and the, all of the antidepressants you’ve been on, your neurotransmitters are just fried.” And he’s like, “So if we deal with your crazy, off-the-chart immune response, and get your neurotransmitters kind of balanced again, a lot of this shit’s going to go away.” Which makes sense to me. But that doesn’t help with the you’re-just-crazy idea, that if my neurotransmitters are all messed up, then, this could all just be because I’m crazy, you know? And once—so if I get—I, one of the recordings that I did about this was like so, so is that the choice that people are faced with? Like I said, when I was in college and I was taking, like, intro to psych classes, and they would talk about people who wouldn’t take their medicine, and they gave this example of this one woman who said she couldn’t paint because she didn’t feel—like, she felt just numb, and she couldn’t—she didn’t feel inspired, and all that kind of stuff.

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 Right. o And I remember thinking, God, but why would you not want to take your medicine? That would be horrible to feel this, like that, and whatever. And then, so I’m watching all this stuff, and reading all this stuff, and I’m thinking, so…is that the choice that schizophrenics have to make? Like, if I had to make that choice. Say, okay, if you take this medicine, you will be fine, your life will be fine, but [clears throat], you will not feel the warm, tingly, loving energy. You will not see the pretty colors of auras around people. You will not hear the nice, kind, supportive voices in your head. You will not—so, it’s like, is that the kind of choice that those people deal with? Is it like, okay, I could be normal, I could function, but…then you don’t have these other things, and so—I had never understood that before, until I started reading that, and I was like, that’s why they don’t want to take their medicine. That’s why—I mean, it never made sense to me before. And now I’m like, yeah, I can see that. If somebody said, yeah, you’ll never have depression again, you’ll never have problems getting out of bed again, but all that other stuff, you can’t have that either, I’d be like, see, I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that. So, [tearful] unfortunately, that—all that [laugh], is where I’m at right now. So that pretty much takes us from adolescence to the I have no idea what’s going on right now. And I can be completely losing my mind and not know it. I like to think that I’m not, because I’d like to think that if I was losing my mind, I wouldn’t be worried that I was losing my mind. That’s how I kind of console myself. If you were really losing your mind, you wouldn’t be worried you were losing your mind, you’d just be like, oh yeah, this is great. Everything’s cool. I like this.  I don’t know if this is helpful at all—I don’t believe you are losing your mind. o Thank you, I appreciate that! [laugh] I was, like I said, part of my wanting to talk to you was because I knew that you had talked to other people, and I haven’t. I don’t—there’s not a lot of people to talk to. And so it’s kind of like, you—I’m trying to read stuff, and I’m trying to talk to the contacts that I have, but…  I’ve got stuff you’re welcome to read, too, if you would find it helpful.

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o Okay! I would love that, actually! I would very much appreciate that! Very much. So.  One thing I would tell you about the DSM, and about what psychiatry says about mental illnesses—if you even like to use that term, which I don’t—it’s a perspective. And they will present it as this is the Truth, this is the research-supported, scientific, capital-T Truth. They don’t present it as a perspective, and it’s very much a perspective. A lot of it doesn’t have a lot of support in the research. What research supports is that people have a range of different experiences. And there’s not a whole lot of agreement on what constitutes pathological and what doesn’t, in terms of voices. There’s plenty of evidence that people have kinds of experiences where they hear voices and nothing else is wrong in their life. Like, it’s just part of their experience. In psychiatry, they hear that, and they say, there’s something wrong with that and we need to medicate that away. So, I don’t see you as someone who’s losing your mind. I see you as someone who’s having this experience and trying to make sense of it, sounds like. Trying to figure out how this fits in with your life, and what this means about you as a person. o I—as upsetting as it was to watch that little vignette last night, I did feel better having watched it because she—her character in the movie—said that the voices were mean, that they were saying she should kill herself, that she was worthless, you know, and I was like, oh my God! That would be horrible! Like, and I was like, mine were nice! They were calling me on my bullshit, like, that’s not what you really think.  Very honest with you. o Yeah! They weren’t mean. I can’t—that would be so horrible if you had someone, like, you know?  Yeah.  Like, that whole, like, abusive parent, you have a parent who tells you you’re ugly and horrible and worthless and we wish you would die, like, oh my God, how horrible that would be. And so, I just—that did make me feel a little better, like, well, okay [clears throat]. Okay, so if I am going crazy, it’s a nice crazy, it’s not like a mean, sad, ugly, suicidal crazy. [laugh] It’s like a happy crazy! [laugh] But one of the things that, um, that I was—when I was processing through the whole list of the schizophrenia stuff, is

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that I remember, from my women’s studies major, that not all that long ago, hysteria was considered a very real malady for women.  Right. o And I was like, maybe, you know, this is just one of those, they’re not acting in a way that we understand?  Yep. o And so, we’re just going to put you in this corner and, it’s kind of—and I was like, maybe schizophrenia is just the current word for we-don’t-know, kind of [laugh] thing.  Right. And it scares us. o Yes, yes, we don’t know what to do with this.  Right. o Yes. So that was kind of my [laugh] holding-on-to-that-hope thought.  Right. o For dear life, kind of thing. But.  It sounds like it didn’t seem like a negative experience overall until you started to look at, like, the DSM and what psychiatry was saying about the kinds of experiences you have. o Mhm, yeah.  And that’s when it started to be like, maybe this isn’t okay. o Yeah, like, at the time, with the voices, they—they were being very loving and supportive and nice, and it was just the—like I said, just the closeness of it that made me go, blah! It wasn’t what they were saying, or how they were saying it, or anything like that. It was just the, the weirdness of it.  Sounds like wanting to titrate the experience, like, to more ease into it— o Yeah!  —than to have it be so immediate? o Yeah! And I wanted, I wanted to feel like I had some control over it.  Yes. o As opposed to just feeling like I was at its whim or whatever. And I think that was—and, that exacerbated my anxiety, because when I was trying to push them out and they were like, “But you don’t really want us out,” I was like, “But—

196 but!” [mutual laugh] That was my, my trying to control it and shut it down, but they were like, “But you don’t really want us to go.” I’m like, “But—just—go because I said so!” [mutual laugh] You know, kind of thing. So I—that—yeah, I know that that was part of that reaction. I’ve been trying to take comfort in that. The first time, when I was a little kid…the first time I felt energy was when I, I touched a wild animal. Um—it was the weirdest thing. Like, I don’t even know where this idea came from, because it certainly didn’t come from my parents. But I, I was playing hide-and-seek with my friends. And it was—I was the seeker. And it was fall, because the hedgerow between our houses, it was just all sticks, there were no leaves. And then this blue bird came and flew [clears throat], like, in front of me, like probably, like, to the wall. About that far. As I was creeping around the side of the house to look for my friends. And he just kind of flew to the hedgerow, landed, and looked at me. And I was like, well that’s different. And so I kind of, I was like, I wonder if I could get closer. How close could I get to that bird before he like, you know—birds are so twitchy. They’ll, like, fly off the slightest provocation. And so I was like creeping up on it. And he was just kind of checking me out, just looking at me. And I was like, okay, that’s kind of—he should have flown off by now, that’s kind of weird. And I remember thinking—and again, I have no idea where this came from—is that I, I was like, I just need to…let him know that I’m not going to hurt him, that I don’t want to hurt him, that I don’t want to eat him, I don’t want to trap him, I don’t want to trick him. I just want to pet him, because he’s pretty. He’s blue, he’s pretty, and he’s a bird. And so I just sort of was like, [whispering] I’m not gonna hurt you, I’m not gonna hurt you, you know. And then I like, reached my hand out. And my hand—I mean, by the time my hand was—like, the bird is here and my hand is here, I’m like, this should not be happening. This is really weird. He should have flown away by now. And so I was like, [whispering] I’m not gonna hurt you, I’m not gonna hurt you. And then I literally thought of it as like energy, like sending energy through my hand, like, you’re pretty, I love you, I’m not gonna hurt you, you know, kind of thing. And I thought, as soon as move my fingers, because my hand was just regular, straight—as soon as I move my fingers to pet

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him, that’s going to scare him, he’s going to fly away. So I stopped when my hand was like, that far away, and I just kind of slowly moved my fingers so that he would know, this is normal, moving fingers is fine, nothing to be worried about. And he just looked at me. And I was like, okay, it’s on! [mutual laugh] And so I like—and so I did. I petted, I petted this wild bird, like three times. And then I just kind of really slowly pulled my hand back. And I was like, you can go now. And he kind of, like, twitched his head, and he flew off.  Wowww. o And I was like, that was the coolest thing ever! And so, after that, I would do it with dogs, like, stray dogs and stuff, I’d be like, [whispering] I’m not gonna hurt you, I’m not gonna hurt you.  How old were you? o Oh, I was, let’s see, I would have been…second grade? Pretty young.  Seven, eight years old? o Yeah. And then after that, I used it on other animals. And that’s how I learned you can’t push. Because there was one dog who was clearly not in a good mood. And I thought, oh, well I’ll just let him know that I’m, again, I’m not going to hurt him, I think he’s pretty, he’s nice, I just want to pet him. And so I…I was trying to reach for it, and it was kind of like, encountering some resistance, a little bit.  You could feel that? o Yeah, I could f—I was like, he, he’s not really going for this, and I was like, oh, I just need to show him more, so in my head, I was thinking, I need to—he’s not getting, he doesn’t realize I’m not going to hurt him. So I just need to push harder, I need to get through, like—and then, and when I tried to like, push, that’s when he, he literally like [chomping sound]. And like, he snapped at me, and I was like, okay. Alright. I won’t push. I’m sorry. That was bad. [laugh] And that’s when I learned, like, you can’t push it. If they—they have to still be willing and, you know, whatever.  I’m going to look back, because I—

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o Oh yeah, I’m sorry, if you have something specific, by all means! I’ve just been rambling at you for three hours!  I appreciate you being so open with your experience, because this is so recent, and because you’ve shared it with so few people. I feel really honored that you’re willing to share this with me. And I really appreciate it. o Oh, you’re welcome. I figured if anybody could make sense of it, it would be you! [laugh] And like I said, I was hoping that maybe you might, like you said, be able to—read this, think about that, you know, kind of thing.  Yeah, there’s—I don’t know if you’ve heard about the Hearing Voices Network either? o Uh uh.  This is—started in, I think, is it Denmark? Um, but anyway, this is kind of a worldwide community of folks who hear voices and have these kinds of alternative experiences who are able to be in touch with one another and talk about their experiences. o Really?  Yeah. o That would be so helpful!  They’ve got a Facebook page and everything, and— o Really?  I can, of course, send you links to stuff and everything. o Yeah, that’d be great!  But, you know, people living their everyday lives and having this experience that they can’t share with everyone because they don’t want to be looked at as crazy. o Right.  But it can be really helpful to be in touch with people like that. o No, that would be great!  Okay. o That would be great, yes!  I’d be glad to send you everything I have! o Yes, I would appreciate that, absolutely.  Yeah. o But yeah, look at your…

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 Sure, yeah yeah, um…first of all, I do need to get your date of birth, if you don’t mind. o Oh, sure. It’s __-__-__.  Okay. And…let me just look, because I think we’ve answered a lot of it just based on you telling me the story. I’d be curious to know specifically, because you talked about kind of the Greek chorus kind of voice, and how that was kind of presented to you as spirit guide. Is that how you’re conceptualizing what that source was? o Mhm.  Now, the other voice that was saying the very concise, gentle things to you—what’s your idea of who or what that voice is? o Um…um…I guess I…just like, I don’t want to say, really like a guardian angel? But just sort of like a helpful…um…like a helpful…spirit entity, presence.  Okay. o Some—I mean, very similar. I didn’t, I didn’t necessarily…I-I don’t have a sense of connection, like, that’s my person, or that’s Bob, that’s my guy, you know. Like…it was…I don’t know. It was, it was kind of like if you’re…[laugh] if you go to a city that you’ve never been to before, and you’re standing there looking at a map, and you’re like looking around, and someone walks up to you and goes, “Hey, are you lost? Do you need to go—,” and you’re like, “Yeah, I’m looking for blank,” and they’re like, “Oh yeah, that’s just like three blocks down and to the right.” Like, you never even know, you don’t know that person’s name, you never see them again, but it’s just kind of this, “Oh yeah,” just like a nice person, doing a random nice thing, you know. Like I said, I didn’t feel like this was—like my friend {MAN} who has a name for his people. Like, it didn’t feel like that, um, possessive, like, or like we had any sort of connection per se, it was just kind of a, “Oh yeah, three blocks down and to the right.” [laugh] More like, sort of like someone being helpful.  Dropping in and being helpful. o Yeah!  Okay. So, it sounds like it didn’t seem like this was God speaking to you. o No. No…. I guess I…. I…

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 You had mentioned God, and then this voice saying, “God didn’t turn away from you, you turned away from God,” so it was something separate from—? o Yeah, I sort of…I don’t know why I don’t think…it was…huh. Because, like, the recent event, where I was like, “Why are you doing this to me?” You would think that if something was responding to that, if I was thinking that I was talking to God, then if I heard something back, I would just naturally assume that was God. But for some reason, I…  It didn’t feel that way? o It didn’t, and I don’t know if that’s because I…I sort of…that may have to do with just my conception of…God and, like…helpful…. And…but I don’t, I sort of…  You’re not so sure? o I, I guess I just sort of think that…it’s kind of like…I feel like…people are, are here for a reason. To learn, to help each other, you know, to grow as much as they can, and then to try it somewhere else, or move on to the next grade, or whatever, I don’t know.  In terms of life beyond this life? o Yeah, like okay, we’re going to do what we can do here, and then once we’re done here, then we’ll do what we can do somewhere else, in some other capacity. And, so I don’t really see…I thought, I think some people who…have a religious doctrine think that w-when we die here, we just sort of are, sort of absorbed into the God-ness, the—so there’s no differentiating. And I don’t know that I agree with that. I, it just kind of makes sense to me intuitively that when I die here, I’m not dead, that is not the end, you know, that it’s that whole energy can be killed but just transitions into something else. So they, it kind of just feels like that to me. Like, I don’t know. I don’t know who, who I was talking to. It felt—I guess I just sort of call it “God” as sort of like an umbrella term. Because it’s…a feeling of love and kindness and protectiveness and, just this benevolence and, you know—  All those qualities…

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o Yeah, it’s more the quality, it’s not necessarily that I think of God with the gray beard and, you know, sitting on a throne, or anything like that. It’s just more that feeling and that intention, and that interact—that way of interacting, I guess?  Rather than a discrete being. o Yeah, not like this individual dude [laugh], but just sort of a—yeah, like help, helpful and kind and loving and supportive and…forgiving and gentle and, all those kinds of things. I—I’m going to keep thinking about that question after you’re gone, because that’s—I’m, this is my high brain—going, now, if you were asking God why he was punishing you and why he wanted to take your friends away, when he responded, why didn’t you think that that was God? That should have been your natural, but—so I’m not sure why; that’s interesting and I’ll have to reflect on that! [laugh]  Of course! Don’t feel like you have to have it all figured out! o Yeah, because I really don’t! [laugh]  And that’s okay! o I really really don’t!  That’s okay! That helps, giving a sense for where you are right now, and how you’re in the process of figuring it out and making sense of it all. o Yeah. And you just—I think at those times, I’m just kind of going on the feeling of it. Like how it—I’m just responding to how it feels to me, you know? I don’t really mull it over until later! [laugh]  Right. Yeah, it’s very natural in the moment, when you’re in the experience. o Yeah, and then it feels—it doesn’t feel weird or scary or, you know, like, attacking, or anything like that. It f—even though something very strange is happening, it feels okay, and it feels safe, and it feels—until it’s like right up in my face, that was a little much. [laugh]  Yeah, that was intense. o Yeah, but mostly, it was, yeah. I kind of just go by how I feel, at the time. Doesn’t scare me, so I’m like, you know. [laugh]  Yeah, makes sense to me! Let’s see…we covered all of that…I guess, I’d like to know, if you don’t mind sharing, a little bit about important relationships in your life. You have

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mentioned your mother and your current husband, and I think you were saying that you had had a previous marriage as well? o Mhm.  Okay. o Um, this might actually be a little bit easier—um, I’d be happy to obviously answer that question, but um, just for your dissertation purposes—when I started, when I went to see my most recent shrink, I came prepared. Because I’ve been in therapy for a really long time. [Diane hands me sheet of paper with a concise summary of her medical and social history]  Oh wow. o And the getting-to-know-you phase is so tedious. It’s just like…  Especially when you have a lot to tell. o Yeah! You’re like, just, here. My mom—yeah, I—she and I are very very close. It’s funny because we…I always had the cool mom, like, in high school, all my friends thought that my mom was the coolest mom ever. Because she was a teacher at the high school where we went, so she kind of, she knew what kids were talking about, and so she could kind of speak the language, whereas everybody else’s parents were just so horribly uncouth and out-of-touch and whatever. And, you know, I would obviously, I was a teenager, I would get annoyed with her. Like, but I want to go to the roller skating party! You know, whatever. But we had a really, really good relationship. And she and I, because of my health, my really pulling away hard and like, rejecting everything, and doing that really hard-core individuation stage thing—we never really had that, because like, I mean, I started—I got sick for the first time when I was two weeks old. And it’s been constant, pretty much, every since then. Like, she was my— she’s been my patient advocate. She would always go to the emergency room with me because she knew all the medication I’d been taking, all the specialists I’d seen, all the treatments they’d tried. You know, I mean—and when you have a kid that is that sick all the time, and you, you—that creates a very unique bond. I’ve actually, I’ve read about that, other chronic—like, kids with cancer, stuff like that, that really changes the parent-child dynamic. So she and I are very close.

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My dad is a butthead, um, who I’m not currently on speaking terms with. Although…[sigh] I need to do something about that. I’m not excited about that prospect. Um, heee…had a pretty violent temper. I was pretty scared of him as a kid. My parents got divorced when I was in the fourth—between fourth and fifth grade. And my older brother, who’s only like a year and a half older than me, my older brother has stayed in contact with my dad, and has sort of chided me for cutting him out of my life. And I tried to explain to my brother that we had very different fathers. My brother had sports, and he and my dad bonded over that sports thing, and I was sickly and in the house and, I just have a very different— even though we were raised in the same home, our relationships were very different with our dad, and plus, my dad has mental health issues that went undiagnosed for a really long time, and he actually lived with my ex-husband and I for two years. Which contributed pretty heavily to the downfall of our—my marriage. That and getting really, really, super, super sick. Um…I had, I’ve got Grave’s disease, which is a thyroid disorder—which I am in remission right now, but um, I was incapacitated for months. And so you add that with my dad who was just, God, just, he’s…he had, he was suicidal—like, I would come home and I’d be afraid I’d find him dead in the basement. I mean, he was just—it was a mess, it was a really bad mess. And finally, I was like, look, you—I’ve been scared of you my whole life, you’re this toxic, ugh, you know, influence, and— the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was when he…[sigh] got his second—not first, but second—mail-order bride from {COUNTRY}.  Oh dear. o And as—oh my—that is so offensive to me on so many levels, that I was just like, I am so done with you. I—that is despicable, I’m disgusted, you—ugh. So I wrote him out of my life. I sent him a letter, like literally, don’t contact me, don’t call me, I don’t want to have anything to do with you, like, cut him off. Um, other contributing factors were the fact that my ex-husband {NAME} wanted to have children and I did not. And everybody always says, well didn’t you talk about that before you got married? And I’m like yeah, we did. But, we both— we were both at the same place, we just went different directions. When we got

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married, we were both, like, we both sort of saw kids as death and taxes. They’re inevitable, it’s what you do when you grow up, but, we don’t really—that’s in the future, that’s way far away, we don’t really need to deal with that. Well, as we got older, and our various—his biological clock started ticking. He’s like, “You know….” And I was like, uhhhhh. So we literally just went complete opposite directions.  Right. o We got married, both of our parents had had multiple—well, let’s see…. My ex- husband’s mother had only had one divorce and was on her second marriage. And both of my parents are on their…third marriages? Um, and mom has been with my step-dad {NAME} for longer than she was with my father, so they’re in a very lasting relationship. My ex-step-father was a, oh God, miserable human being. But, um, so my ex-husband and I got married because we were such good friends. We were really good friends, we laughed, we had the best time. Unfortunately, we were not attracted to each other. And that’s kind of a problem. [laugh] It’s so funny to say that now, because it’s kind of like, well duh! But at the time, we’d both come from divorced homes, you know, so we were like, no, this—our friendship, our bond is what’s important. You know, that other stuff, we can figure it out, we’ll learn, we’ll—yeah, no, no, it doesn’t work like that. Thankfully, he now has a child, he’s remarried, he’s doing so well, I’m so so so happy for him.  Do you keep in touch? o Unfortunately, no. I would like to, and I hope at some point we will be able to reconnect. But uh…uh, I think…he took my leaving a little harder…  So it was your choice, it sounds like. o Yeah, I was really—yeah, it was pretty much—I was the one who stuck a fork in it. And—because I just saw it for what it was. I think he was—because his parents were divorced, he wanted to try so-so-so hard. And I was just like, honey, we’ve been trying, you know? We’ve done the couples therapy, we’ve done— and we just weren’t—in just wasn’t right. And you know, him being remarried now and having a son, it’s so, he’s so much better off now, and he’s published

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some poetry—I could not be happier for him. He’s such a great guy, and I’m so so so glad that he’s doing so well. But his current wife isn’t real keen on us interacting. Which I can appreciate, you know, that is kind of sketchy situation. And—but I’m hoping maybe with some more time, and once their relationship is really super solid and, that it won’t be such a weird thing, and that maybe then we’ll be able to exchange the occasional email. It’s funny because I talk to {PARTNER} about him and {PARTNER}’s like, “Oh my gosh, it sounds like he and I would get along so well,” and I was like, “Oh, baby, you would! You guys would just die laughing, you would have the best time!” And um, so, that would be really cool, I would love for them to be able to meet.  So does {PARTNER} feel like a friend as well, like that connection? o Um, he does, he does. We…but different. He’s also…I think {PARTNER} has a generosity of spirit that…{EX-HUSBAND} didn’t have quite as much of. Not that he wasn’t giving and generous. It was just, I think he’d been so hurt in so many relationships that he was just really aware and, and watching for being taken advantage of. So he, that kind of—he, he tended to be, I think, a little bit more aware of keeping score of like, what I’ve done versus what you’ve done for me. You know what I mean?  I see, yeah. o I don’t begrudge him that in any way, I understand where that comes from. But {PARTNER} is just like…he is—even last night, I was just crying, I was so upset, I was like, “I’m so poor, and I’m sick, and I’m so tired,” you know. And I—it’s frustrating because, being chronically ill just really wears you down. It’s like erosion. It doesn’t—I look fine, like, if I go out, I’m relatively thin, I seem to have a certain amount of energy, I don’t have any visible boils, like—but it takes this internal toll on you [cough], and [cough], and it’s really expensive. Even though I have healthcare, thanks to {PARTNER}’s job, I still spend, like, three, four hundred dollars a month on medical bills and medication.  Wow. o And that’s a lot of money. And, and I have, like, sleep hypopnea, so I have to sleep like ten to twelve hours a day in order to feel rested, and I mean, it’s just,

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it’s a lot to deal with. And {PARTNER}, for whatever reason, doesn’t, doesn’t keep score. He doesn’t, he’s…he, he is fine with—he’s happy to take care of me, and give me whatever I need. I am not okay with that; I don’t like being taken care of, and that’s the little feminist in me. I want to be able to like, you know, contribute and take care of myself and do stuff and be—  You’d like to be equal partners? o Yes. And so it really bothers me that I’m not. But him, it’s like he doesn’t even notice. He doesn’t even care. And he’s so, he’s so good-hearted. It’s amazing. It’s really, really amazing. But, if the roles were reversed, I would not be as kind. And that’s a hard thing to know, too. But I have, I have made a very big difference in his life. His parents don’t call me his girlfriend or his wife, they call me his life coach. [laugh] Because he’s changed a lot and he’s grown a lot since we’ve been together.  You’ve mentioned friends as well. Would you tell me about your friends? o Um, I actually do not have a lot of friends. My friends, that I call mine, are back in {CITY}.  Okay. Is that where you grew up? o It’s not where I grew up, it’s where I went to college. We moved around a lot, actually, because of my dad, work…being in and out of work. But when I finally lived in one place for more than two years, when my parents got divorced, and I had all of my, like, middle school and high school all in one place, which was amazing, and then I went to {UNIVERSITY} and I was basically there. I graduated from high school in ____, and then I moved down to {CITY} to go to {UNIVERSITY}, and then I stayed in {CITY} until I moved here to move in with {PARTNER} about, what was it, four years ago? So I was in {CITY} for a long time, and my best friend from high school also went to {UNIVERSITY}. So my best friend, who has been my best friend since the sixth grade, known her, and um, my other good friend, who was from the ex-husband group, but we still stayed really close. And so those are kind of my friends. And then I moved down here and just sort of got included in his group of friends.  I see.

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o So, I mean, they’re—a couple of them I would still consider my friends, but mostly it’s just kind of his college buddies. He has a couple from high school, {NAME} and {NAME}, who came to {UNIVERSITY}, too. So he has a couple people in that group are his high school buddies. But most of them are like, college buddies and whatever, and so. A few of those people I’ve connected with more individually, but by and large, it’s just kind of a bigger grouping, which was partly—and he was actually really supportive of me taking classes at the {RELIGION} community center, and taking the adult education program there. Because he knows that that’s not anything he can really help me with. So he’s like, look, I know I can’t really help you with this aspect of your life, so go hang out with your people! [laugh] So I’ve met some people there, and, obviously, now that I’m kind of starting to try to navigate the alterna-crowd, I’m meeting a bunch of different people through the {CITY} energy work group. All of whom have been just great so far. I’ve been—I was very wary at first, because I…I’ve really internalized the whole those people are crazy thing, and so I, I had that too, so I was kind of like mmm, you know, but they’ve all just been so welcoming and so kind, and so, so open about their experiences, where I’m just a lot more [vocalizes], a lot more freaked out! And more, you know, quiet and reclusive, and um. So, it’s nice to kind of be able to…have this other group of people who are more mine. You know?  Yeah. o And also have those sort of similar interests and experiences. So, but that’s like— as I’ve said—very recent! So.  Yeah. o Only very, very recent.  You mentioned similar interests and experiences. I’m curious, to you, what else constitutes a good friendship? Like, if you were to think about the ideal friendship. What would that include? o Well, like with {NAME}—my best friend since the sixth grade—she, we have just been through so much. Like, I was with her when she had braces, when we both had 80s perms out to here, like—I mean, and when—dating and college and

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majors and, now she’s—marriages, and now she has a kid with special needs, and like—there’s the friendship where you’ve had it for so long that it’s—you’re so invested, that even if you don’t necessarily have quite as much in common with that person anymore, that’s [clears throat]—it’s a solid bridge. But…  The bond there… o Yeah, yeah, it goes—even, you know, she doesn’t know anything about this stuff. But…I’m sure she will be fine with it. It’s just my own internal freak-out that’s kind of keeping me from really, really sharing it with her. I mean, she might be, she might not understand, she might ask questions or not understand something, but she won’t be like, harlot! Jezebel! Burn her at the stake! Like, she’ll be fine. Um…but it, it is really nice, even though I haven’t known these people as long, I don’t have to—that sort of common experience so that you don’t have to explain things. Like, I used to tell this joke all the time, when I was a women’s studies major in college. I lived with a—when I was in college, I lived with a lesbian couple when I was off-campus. And I used look at their relationship with such envy, and be like, wow! It’d be so nice to not have to explain why rape jokes aren’t funny. You know? They just know why that’s not funny. And, and it’s kind of, you know, I don’t have to explain why I think that energy work is real. They just—it’s just assumed, it’s just a foregone, well yes, of course it’s real, why would you even think that it wasn’t? You know, I mean, it’s that sort of, you know, even though {NAME} and I volunteer at, {NAME} is, gosh…the interesting thing about this is that, in this—the {CITY} energy work community is almost all middle-aged white women. There are very few males, and there are very few people who do not have gray hair. So, [clears throat] I’m a little—I’m not quite gray yet [laugh]—I feel like it sometimes—but I’m a little below the average. Which kind of bugs me; I wish—I just went to a…a women’s health initiative thing that’s in a more underserved community. I was one of two white faces in the crowd. [clears throat] And partly the reason why I went is because one of the energy work ladies was presenting. Because she was doing—it was a little presentation about complementary treatments for cancer and stuff like that, and energy work and Tai Chi were two of the presentations. And was so excited

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that energy work was being presented to people who were not white! Because it’s just—it literally is, when you go to these retreats and stuff, it’s all middle-aged white women. [laugh]  Yeah… o And I was just like, oh! It’d be nice to try to reach out more. But—you asked me about similarities and I’m telling you about differences—but, even though {NAME} and {NAME} are older than I am and at different places in their life cycle, having those kinds of similar interests and similar questions and similar…experiences is so, is so valuable, and so…you feel so…so much more comfortable, like you don’t have to have your guard up. One of the ladies at the, the energy work retreat mentioned that they have an energy work potluck every third Friday or something, at their shop in {TOWN}. And she said something really interesting when she was announcing to the group about it. She was like, “You know, it’s just so nice…it’s just so nice to be around like-minded individuals where you don’t have to hide who you are.” And that, to me, spoke volumes, because you do. I mean, it’s not like I want to go around wearing a shirt saying, hey! You know! [laugh] And even the {EVENT} expo—is a like, psychic fair, kind of thing—that happens twice a year in {CITY}, and there was one just very recently, earlier this month, I think. And that’s a similar kind of thing, where everybody there is open to things. And you don’t, you don’t have to worry that much—I say that much because there were some protesters, out in front of the convention center, talking about Satan and whatnot.  Of course. o But, by and large, you don’t have to worry about people attacking your values, or attacking your experiences, or making you feel defensive, or you know, whatever, you can just be like [sigh], like, and just…  Be yourself. o Yeah, just be yourself. There’s—one of the books, when I went to Half Price Books, this book—I got this book [holds up book], even though—specifically because, when I was reading through the table of contents here—this is an energy therapy practitioner lady who started out a veterinarian and then became a

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gynecologist/OBGYN—chapter three is “Coming out of the closet.” Because that’s what it feels like. When you’re talking to people about this kind of stuff, and you’re like—so, you try to tell someone, and I, I have ears! I know what it sounds like! When you say, so, let me get this straight: you think that you’re a channel for some magical healing light from space, does that about cover it? And like, I know how crazy that sounds! You know? And just because it happens to be true doesn’t keep in from being crazy-sounding! And so.  You were saying that you’ve felt like you had kind of internalized the cultural attitude toward these kinds of things. o Oh, totally! Oh, totally, totally! And like [laugh], I—and that has been, that has been probably the biggest problem for me, is because I told—the most recent person that I told in my circle of friends was my friend {NAME}, and she moved to {CITY}, actually. She was one of the {CITY} crew and she moved to {CITY}. So I was talking to her on the phone, and I was like, oh, I was like agonizing and telling kind of this whole thing. And she’s Christian, and so I was like, ooh, I don’t know how she’s—she’s going to think I’m a witch! Or something, and, and she was so—again—completely cool about it. And she was like, “Well, I think that’s really cool,” and she was like, “Who’s reacted that way? Who’s treating you like that?” And I kind of went, “Well, uh, no one, because you’re the third person I’ve told, and you’re the third person that’s been totally okay with it!” [laugh] And she was like, “Well honey,” in her very {NAME} kind of way, said, “Well it sounds like you’re the one with the problem. Everybody else is fine with it!” And I was like, “Well, fine! Put too fine a point on it! That’s just so you.” But [laugh], it is! And there is this sort of, like, when you talk to people, you’re kind of like this cringing, waiting to get hit, kind of like, guh, kind of feeling, and so you, so you are a little cautious, and, you know.  Sure. o Most people…most people would not react to your face that way. But I’ve, I’ve been in the world, and I’ve talked to enough people and been in enough situations, that I’ve so many times seen when someone was like, “Oh, okay, okay,” and then

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as soon as that person leaves, they look at you like, “Ooh, what’s up with that one?” You know what I mean?  Sure. o And so…  So you might wonder with some people, what are they really thinking? o Yeah!  What are they saying when I leave? o Exactly! So it’s like, okay, sooo…they might not be belligerent enough to, like, be up your face, or try to confront you about something, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not judging you, or when you leave, they’re not going, “What the hell was that?” You know, that kind of thing. So.  So it’s a tricky thing. o It is, it is. And it’s—not to belittle, in any way, the challenges of being a homosexual in a heterosexual society—but, in some ways, I feel like this is actually harder, because you can be…I feel like, culturally, we’re kind of shifting in our attitudes towards homosexuality. But our attitude toward science and logic and “show me,” and that is not changing. If anything, it seems to be—as our scientific strides grow, and we learn so much more, and we feel like we have a better handle on our world—perhaps inaccurately or accurately, depending on who you ask—  Right. o It seems like, the more we, we cling to that, well, if the x-ray doesn’t show it, then it’s not real, kind of thing, and it’s like, yes, but [laugh] you know, kind of—  There are a lot of disciplines that are kind of digging their heels in. o Yeah, yeah, and I understand, like, I completely get, in order to really, really dig deep on a particular part, being an expert in something requires you to drill down in your specialty, and really focus on just your little area, and that has yielded amazing things intellectually and academically. But unfortunately, that can also create a sort of tunnel vision that can be frustrating if you’re the person on the other side of the tunnel! [laugh] Saying, hey, what about this? And they’re like, oh, a crazy person over there. So like, I’m not crazy! And, I do understand it

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though, because if I, if I hadn’t felt what I had felt, seen what I’d seen, experienced what I’d experienced, I completely understand skepticism. It’s like, like the people that I—one of my friends in college saw a ghost when she was a child. They—she would go to a friend’s house and that friend’s house—it was a very very old house, and there was a child that had died, like, early, early 1900s or something like that. And they would each, each generation of children in that house would play with the ghost child. And then once they got to a certain age, they stopped. But then the next, then their younger, younger, younger sister would start playing with the ghost child. But none of them ever talked to each other about it until they were, like, in their 40s. And so, if you haven’t had that experience, of course you’re going to think, oh, well that’s just a trick of the light, or that’s just dust, or you were just, whatever. I mean, I understand that, I really do. So I’m not like, I’m not mad necessarily at people who, who don’t, who think that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I understand where they’re coming from, so I’m not like pissed at them or anything. It—that doesn’t make it any easier.  Right. o But I do understand their skepticism, and I do understand, like, well, yeah, of course, if you haven’t—if I say, ooh, I’m going to beam you loving, radiant energy, like, yeah, if you’ve never felt that, you’re going to look at me like, okay, you do that! You know? [laugh] I get that, I really do, but that doesn’t make it any easier, unfortunately.  No, it doesn’t. o And it was funny, because I was talking to {FRIEND} about this yesterday. And she was actually talking about her husband’s continued skepticism, even though he’s—she’s been doing this for so long! And I’m like, what—does he—have you worked on him? Like has he—? And she laughed, and she said, “Yeah, he, he insists that he doesn’t feel anything, that he doesn’t feel it.” And, and she said, even though she has said to him, “Well, honey, remember how you said how warm my hands got?” And he was like, “Well yeah, but that’s not—.” You know! [mutual laugh] And I was like, really? Even after all this time? Still?

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So, people just are, they’re, they have an understanding of their world, and they’re comfortable with it, and I understand that, but it is kind of frustrating. But what are you going to do? Each one, teach one. Pretty much all you can do. More— and that’s kind of, kind of the lesson that I’ve been learning, even though it’s the shittiest, horriblest, most hardest lesson ever, is that…you can’t be quiet about it. Because that’s what creates the problem. Like, with homosexuality, I have a gay cousin, so to me, being gay is not all that weird. But if my cousin wasn’t brave enough to be who he was and be honest, then no one in his entire extended family would know anyone that was gay. You know? And so, it’s kind of like you…you have to just—change happens so very, very slowly.  Yeah. o But that change doesn’t happen if you hide, and you’re quiet. And even though I know that intellectually, sometimes when you’re in the moment, you’re just like, oh, I don’t want to, I don’t want to, I don’t want to! I don’t want to be that person, I don’t want to lead the pack, I don’t want to! [laugh] But, I know that at the end of the day, that’s the only thing that’s going to change anything, so.  I wonder, as you’re in the midst of figuring all of this out, and this is a relatively new experience, like, how do you feel emotionally, day by day? Like, does it vary a lot? How do you generally feel? o Um, that’s a tricky question because I have, there are other factors that greatly impact my mental health. My physical health—  Yeah, of course. o —and my depression, and how well that’s going. Unfortunately, those two things definitely impact this experience. If I was perfectly healthy and…you know, successful businesswoman or something like that, it would be a very different experience. But I do have some additional challenges that make it a little more traumatic. I have, um, sometimes, sometimes it’s okay, and I feel fine…especially if I’m working from a more intuitive place. Like I said, like, it feels okay, it doesn’t feel bad or scary or violent or weird or anything like that. And when I’m around my people [laugh], I feel okay, I feel more okay about it. But then, there’s other times where I’ll see something on TV, or I’ll bump into

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someone, or, you know, like I saw this…was it like a tosh or something? It was a program where they’ll take funny clips from the internet or news or reality TV, and then they’ll make fun of it.  Yeah. o Well, I was watching something, and their clip was of a BBC program where this woman was talking about her alien husband and their love child. And she had drawn a picture of the spaceship, and in my head I’m going, oh God, that’s how people see me! [laugh] And, and then I also have to think, well, you know what? …When this crap starts happening, you lose your ability to be snotty and judgmental pretty quickly. Like, before, I kind of admit to making fun of Scientology—like, the thetons, and the ooh, the aliens came down! You know, whatever. And now I’m like, you know what? I have completely lost the right to make fun of people over shit like that! [laugh] I was like, you know what? Maybe she does have an alien husband. Maybe that is a picture of their spaceship, like, I don’t know! And, but it—sometimes, you’re like, oh man! So it’s really, I have not reached a place of equilibrium with it yet. It’s really kind of like, some days I have good days about, and some days, I feel really good about it, and…like, I, sometimes at the food pantry, you’ll work on someone, and they’ll be like, oh, that was amazing, I feel so much better, I feel so relaxed, thank you, or whatever. And then other times, you’ll have people walk up to you…who are like, whatever, they’ll blow you off, or [vocalizing] or whatever. And I’m not at a point yet where that stuff doesn’t impact me, both good and bad, both positive and negative, it still impacts me. And I try to just focus on the, try to just cling to those positive moments and be like, well, okay, I can’t do anything about that, just try to, you know, you know you mean well, you know you’re trying to bring something positive into people’s lives. You just try to—if the most important people around you support you, and you just have to kind of go with that. And so, sometimes you just have to try to focus on that as much as possible. But yeah, it’s up and down. I don’t know if that’ll ever totally go away, you know? Some of the people in this group, they’ve been doing it for so long that they’re just like, they’re so matter-of-fact about it, and they’re so—they’re so accepting of it. But

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it’d be nice to—it will be nice to get to that point. Like, {NAME}’s really good about going out. Like, I’ll just kind of stand there and wait for somebody to come to me….  To come to you, yeah. o But {NAME} is just such a doll. She’s one of those people—her, she just has a brightness to her face. She just has this—she smiles and laughs all the time, and she’s just this warm, warm person. She’s just such a warm, kind, giving person, and she will go, she’ll go out and work the room. And she’ll talk to people and be like, “Oh, have you heard of healing touch?” And she’s, she—and if people, they react to her, she’s fine with it, she’s just so at peace with it, and so, so content with herself and where she is and what she does. And I’m just not there yet! I’m just like, I’ll just stand here in the corner and wait until somebody comes!  I’m curious to know, like, if you had a choice right now, if you could like wave a magic wand and have like, the voice stuff, the spirit guides, the energy work, like have all that go away, and have that just not be a part of your life, no other part of your life is touched, but like all that stuff is gone; would you choose that? o You know, I’m…I’ve given that a decent amount of thought. Um…like, kind of what we were talking about earlier, with like the schizophrenia medication and stuff like that, and…I wouldn’t. I…I believe…the main thing that got me out of my, um…schizophrenia terror cycle, was…the energy work. Was the fact that lots of people can feel it. Lots of normal people can feel it.  Yep. o And if all of these normal people can feel it, then this unexplainable thing is real. And if this unexplainable thing is real, then maybe there’s a few other unexplainable things that are real. And that doesn’t make them bad. And that— so, the energy work was actually…a big, like the way that I was able to say…y- you’re not necessarily crazy. That, that you could be okay, this could be alright, everything could be okay. And, and because…it’s, it’s good, like it’s…it’s, it’s warm, and it’s loving, and it’s gentle, and there are no negative side effects. It’s just like, it’s such a positive thing that, that…that to wish that something so positive would go away just so that your life would be less complicated seems

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really short-sighted, and…really…superficial. Like, I want this one complicated aspect of my life to go away so that I can feel like everybody else. You know? It’s just…it’s—as long as it’s not hurting anyone, as long is it’s not hurting me, as long as, you know…as long as I can still feel like I’m bringing something positive into a world that is overwhelmingly negative, that’s okay. That’s okay. And it’s just a matter of, I need to get okay with it so that when other people aren’t okay with it, I’m okay with it. You know? Like, it’s just a matter of…you know. I’m not there yet, but it’s not intrinsically bad, it’s just complicated. And that, that is scary and uncertain and disconcerting, but it’s not bad, you know? And I guess that’s kind of how I…  I hear that distinction, that makes sense to me, the way you describe it. o Yeah, like if—and I think, like I said, that that was partly the reason why watching that thing last night was helpful, was because it was so overwhelmingly negative, and terrifying, and just horrible. And I’m like, okay, that’s not what I’m experiencing, you know. I might be afraid because it’s different, or unusual, or I don’t really understand it, but it’s not like this vile…  Threatening… o …threatening, yeah, like really, um, acidic kind of…toxic thing in my life. It doesn’t feel that way to me. So, as long as I try to stick with that, then I think— and thankfully, having the support that I have makes that a lot easier. A lot more doable. So.  From your mother and husband? o Yeah, having them, having them makes, oh, all the difference in the world. I can’t imagine—I feel so bad—like my poor cousin who is gay, whose mother disowned him.  Oh gosh. o Such a sad, like—oh. My mom’s side is pretty religious, and that’s her, her sister {NAME}. And just so sad, because my cousin was my aunt’s favorite. Like, {COUSIN} was my aunt’s favorite of all her kids. And so you would think that if you had that super-love, that that would…that would trump it, but, I mean, so in order to be who he was, he had to lose his entire family, he left his town, he

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moved to {BLUE STATE} from {RED STATE}. I mean, I can’t—all the strength that that required, just blows my mind.  I wonder if you’ve had that in mind as you’ve thought about coming out of your closet? o Absolutely! Absolutely! I have. I absolutely have had that.  Makes sense. o And oh! So that has definitely given me pause. I’m warier around really religious people, because I’m afraid of—regardless of what religion. But just, so that honestly is the thing that gives me more pause. But also, like if someone is, like, hard-mouth atheist, like, we’re here, we die, we’re dust, period. People who are like that also kind of make me go, oh, they’re not going to get this at all. Like, if you’re just, this is it, if you can’t imagine that there’s even the possibility of anything, they’re going to look at me like I’m an idiot. You know? So super religious or super, hard-core atheist. Those are the ones that make me go, oh, this is not going to go well. But so far, I have been pleasantly surprised, so, maybe I shouldn’t be—I’m trying to take those experiences to heart! [laugh] Make me a little braver!  I’m so glad for you that you’ve had those positive experiences. Because often—I mean, I’ve read a lot of the stigma literature around, you know, all kinds of different experiences that folks have, and what people talk about as the most painful is just people’s reaction to what they’re going through, and not the experience itself. Just what people think of them, and all the cultural beliefs around that, and self-stigmatization, that’s the hardest part. o I mean, shunning worked for a reason.  Yeah. o We are social creatures, and taking everyone away from us is very hard. Very hard.  I think…that pretty much covers it. The only other questions I would have are, like, in terms of your life in general, I think you mentioned that, um, you know, one time you worked at a coffee shop, um, you’ve gotten your Bachelor’s degree, like, education- occupation, what else have you done?

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o Um, by and large, I have, I’ve worked mostly in medical support fields. Like, I started out as, the nursing home, patient care. And then from there, I moved— because I was making no money—and then I moved to a, being a patient care person in an intermediate cardiology unit, {HOSPITAL} in {CITY}. And then I became a patient advocate in the emergency room. Then I went to medical billing. And so it’s been mostly medical-ish. Which was always very interesting to me because I always had so much crap going on. And I was also able to empathize really easily with these other people who were going though all this stuff. And then, um, and then I went to massage therapy school in {CITY}. And I did that for, I want to say five years. But right about then was, a couple of things happened to throw me off that—massage therapy is very physical, it’s very draining physically. And I started having some low back problems and I started getting zaps, some carpal tunnel zaps, which is really, really common. Most massage therapists—like, I remember when we were in school, our administrators and teachers and stuff told us that in three years after graduation, eighty percent of us would not be doing massage.  Wow. o Yeah. And it’s not cheap. And you have to take the boards, and you have to be certified, and you have to get malpractice insurance, I mean it is not—but they just, so many places just really burn through—like, spas, they get fresh grads, and they work them until they collapse basically. Which is why if you want to have a longer career as a massage therapist, you almost always end up working for yourself. But then, because you’re working for yourself, you almost always have to have another job to supplement your income, because it’s really feast or famine, in any sort of position like that it’s really feast or famine. But also, if you want health insurance, if you want anything like that—so, it becomes this juggling act, and then if you have kids, and—it’s really complicated. So, not only did I start having, physically start to break down, but I also got really sick. That’s about the time when I started getting Grave’s, and I have, I have two antibiotic- resistant bacteria in my lungs that have colonized, I’ve got bronchiectasis, I’ve got just so much crap. And so, when you can’t physically do that kind of work

219 anymore, you’re like, well shit, what am I going to do now? So then I went into, I did some stuff at {UNIVERSITY}, I worked at the {CENTER} at {UNIVERSITY}, which is where my mom worked for a little bit. That was only like a six-month placement though, like a temp kind of thing. And then I started working as an admin at the {HOSPITAL} at {UNIVERSITY}. I was actually the—I worked my way up to being assistant to the chair of the radiation medicine department, which was awesome, she was the coolest lady, so supportive, so awesome. This tiny little thing from Germany, but gosh, she was a beast. Unfortunately, that did not end well. She decided to step down as chair, and so they did a chair search, and the brought in this guy from {UNIVERSITY} to chair, and he brought his own people with him. So they basically said, you can keep your job, but you just have to go work in a corner over there, and I was like, what?! [laugh] So, right about that time was when {PARTNER} and I had been dating long-distance for like a year, which sucks. So, and he had been hinting about me moving to {CITY} for like six months. And every time, he’d always laugh it off, like, “Oh, you should just move,” like it was some casual little joke that he just happened to say. And so when that happened, I was like, okay, this is, it’s time for me to go. So that’s when I moved down here. And since I’ve been here, which has been almost four years now, I initially started a graduate program though {ONLINE UNIVERSITY}, which is an online kind of thing, for a Master’s degree in measurement, evaluation, and research, which is basically, you’re kind of like a quality control person. You come into a situation where they say, oh, we need help fixing blank, and you kind of look around and you see everything that they’re doing, and you try to suggest ways that they can improve it. And I still think that that would be a very cool thing for me to do because I always rocked the boat a little bit at my jobs, because I’m very good at seeing how things can be better. And, especially if you’re really enthusiastic about it, you’re like, oh, we could do this, and then we could—! You know, blah blah blah. But people who’ve been there and are invested in how things are, or don’t appreciate that, or people who think, well, you’ve only been here for six months, you don’t know anything about anything, don’t tell me how to do my job! You

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know, that kind of thing. And so I thought, I’m doing this naturally, and I’m getting nothing but shit for it, and nothing but pushback for it. But, if I was actually like certified, and people wanted to know how to make something better, I would be spectacular at that! So, yeah. I started to do that for a little bit, but then…that’s expensive. [laugh] And the economy was just bad, and I just had to stop. I really liked it, but I couldn’t afford it, and plus all my health crap. So then, pretty much ever since then, I’ve been doing temporary assignments around town. I’ve had a few long-term assignments, like I had a year assignment at a manufacturing plant not far from here, and I had a year placement at {COMPANY}. They have this huge campus, engineering, where they do fighter planes. They do, like, engineering for major engines and stuff like that at this campus right off of {HIGHWAY}. And I was there for about a year, and that was really nice. But working full time for extended periods of time is really hard.  Physically? o Because I’m tired all the time! But, thankfully at {COMPANY}, my supervisor was really awesome. And because of how detail-oriented the job was that I was working on, and I was so tired, I was like falling asleep at my desk, and so I went to the lady and I said, look, I know that this is a temporary assignment and I know that you advertised it as a whole-time assignment, I was like, I have some health things going on that make it very difficult for me to, whatever. And so she very, very kindly allowed me to have Wednesdays off. That way, I was never more than two days away from being able to sleep for twelve hours! Which made a huge difference. And so I really appreciated that, but unfortunately, that assignment ended in the end of January. And so—which is what prompted my freak-out in the room, like, I don’t know what to do anymore! Where should I go, and what should I do? And that started our whole conversation, so. So it’s just been kind of trying to figure out…because I was so sick and because I was getting physically burned out from massage, I let my massage therapy license lapse. You have to keep it up-to-date with state medical board, and I had let it lapse. And because that’s been several years ago, in order for me to re-up my licensure, I have to reapply to the state medical board, which means they’re going to review

221 my case, and they’re probably going to make me take the exam again, which sucks. I understand it, I’ve been out for a while. Um, so, technically, in order to do energy therapy, you don’t—there isn’t any licensure really. Um, but while I kind of, it’s much easier to get a job doing massage than it to do energy work, and I figured until I kind of get the whole energy work thing going, I could supplement it with the massage, but I need to pay for shit in the mean time.

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