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Da´Il E´Ireann Vol. 668 Tuesday, No. 3 25 November 2008 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Tuesday, 25 November 2008. Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 401 Minister for Health and Children Priority Questions …………………………… 410 Other Questions …………………………… 419 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 427 Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 427 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 432 Order of Business ……………………………… 433 Double Taxation Relief Orders: Motions ……………………… 440 Estimates for Public Services 2008: Leave to Introduce …………………………… 440 Referral to Select Committee ………………………… 441 Treaty of Amsterdam: Referral to Joint Committee …………………… 442 Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act 1996: Motion ………………… 442 Treaty of Amsterdam: Referral to Joint Committee …………………… 442 Business of Da´il: Motion …………………………… 443 Finance (No. 2) Bill 2008: Order for Second Stage …………………………… 443 Second Stage ……………………………… 443 Private Members’ Business Small and Medium Enterprises: Motion ……………………… 464 Finance (No. 2) Bill 2008: Second Stage (resumed) …………………… 486 Adjournment Debate Home Help Services …………………………… 503 Schools Building Projects …………………………… 505 Northern Ireland Issues …………………………… 507 Teaching Qualifications …………………………… 509 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 513 DA´ IL E´ IREANN ———— De´ Ma´irt, 25 Samhain 2008. Tuesday, 25 November 2008. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2.35 p.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Ceisteanna — Questions. ———— Decentralisation Programme. 1. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the number of staff who have applied for relo- cation under the decentralisation programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29484/08] 2. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach the number of members of staff of his Department who have applied for relocation under the Government’s decentralisation prog- ramme; the numbers who have relocated; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32377/08] 3. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach the way the decentralisation prog- ramme affects his Department in terms of staff relocation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37595/08] The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together. Of the 184 authorised core staffing complement currently serving in my Department, 32 have applied through the central applications facility to relocate under the decentralisation programme. The breakdown by grade is: principal officer, two; assistant principal, nine; higher executive officer, five; administrative officer, four; executive officer, four; staff officer, two; and clerical officer, six. Some 22 former members of staff have already been assigned to decentralised posts. There are no proposals to decentralise my Department or any of the bodies under its aegis. It is a matter for those Departments to which staff from my Department have decentralised to assign such staff to locations outside of Dublin. Deputy Enda Kenny: There are at least 13 locations where advance contingents have moved and where permanent accommodation is neither affordable nor available, and this is to be reviewed in 2011. Is it intended that those staff who have moved on a contingency basis are now to return to Dublin because the situation is completely in limbo or will they remain isolated 401 Ceisteanna — 25 November 2008. Questions [Deputy Enda Kenny.] from the rest of their Departments? As this will not be reviewed until 2011, is it not a cause of some concern to the Taoiseach that this will result in fragmentation within the Department? A total of 35 locations are pending a review in 2011. What will happen to the sites that are required by the Departments under the decentralisation programme? Will they just sit there, depending on whether property prices go up or down, or what does the Government intend to do? Given that the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, announced from the Taoiseach’s chair in the Chamber that he was going to move 10,000 public servants over three years to 53 locations, this has not worked out the way the Government intended. Mr. McCreevy said that the Government should be judged on its success in achieving its targets, but it is clear that this is one target that has not been met. An Ceann Comhairle: I remind Deputy Kenny that the question relates to the Taoiseach’s office. The Minister for Finance is the line Minister for the decentralisation process. Deputy Enda Kenny: I thought very carefully about it, Ceann Comhairle. The first question asks about the number of staff who have applied for relocation under the decentralisation programme. It does not mention the Taoiseach’s Department. An Ceann Comhairle: It was a mistake. Deputy Enda Kenny: It is not a mistake; it is a very deliberate question. Even the Ceann Comhairle, with all his experience, must have seen that. An Ceann Comhairle: I must not have. The Taoiseach: The decentralisation implementation group has made a number of reports since this was first announced, such as outlining the expected timescales involved. Of the 2,500 staff already relocated, a further 3,500 will complete relocation as a result of the most recent Government decision with, as the Deputy said, subsequent decisions deferred until 2011. The Office of Public Works has expended approximately \250 million gross up to the end of September 2008 on the property aspects of the programme. The Deputy may wish to note that the total income from property disposed of in Dublin between January 2004 and December 2007 was \355.9 million, leaving a surplus of \105.9 million between what has been purchased and what has been disposed of. In addition, property valued at \75 million was transferred to the affordable homes partnership, which would be a further surplus were it sold on privately to other bodies. I am advised the OPW has agreed joint venture redevelopment schemes with a minimum value of approximately \125 million up to the end of 2007. As expected, non- property costs have been increasing since the beginning of 2007 as more advance accom- modation is in place. Staff training has increased and actual moves have taken place. There is an overall surplus in terms of what has been disposed of and what will be redeveloped as a result of relocation compared to the cost of providing the sites and the locations referred to. With regard to those sites which will not be proceeded with in this phase but will be con- sidered in light of budgetary concerns in 2011, they will remain under the management of the Office of Public Works which will continue to manage the State’s property portfolio as is its remit. Regarding those advance parties which have moved to locations, those staff who indi- cated an intention to relocate will remain in place and move to permanent accommodation under the programme. Deputy Enda Kenny: If the 2011 review were to recommend not going ahead with the decen- tralisation programme in a particular town, will that mean that the contingency group in the town, which has lived semi-permanently there, will be transferred back to Dublin? 402 Ceisteanna — 25 November 2008. Questions Does the Taoiseach agree the decentralisation programme as envisaged by the Government has failed? The Taoiseach knows from his town’s experience, and I from mine, that where a well-planned decentralisation programme has operated, it has been a success. For example, I understand the local government appointments commission was to be decentralised to Clonakilty. There is no railway line to the town which would affect every applicant going for interview. Some of the locations chosen by the then Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, were not suitable for the type of office to be decentralised. A well-planned and well-managed decentralisation programme is always of benefit, depending on the level at which it is operated. Does the Taoiseach accept the programme, as outlined by the then Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, has failed? I know, a Cheann Comhairle, you were interested in having the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Irish Sports Council decentralised to Killarney — a fine town with which I have some acquaintance. Recently, two public servants left Killarney for Dublin to assist in answering questions for the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. The train, however, broke down before reaching Mallow. Between taxis and other trains and lack of mobile telephone coverage, the two public servants never arrived to Dublin on the day. Where Ministers require back-up in the Houses or elsewhere, the decentralisation process has not worked well in their favour. The Taoiseach’s predecessor, Deputy Bertie Ahern, spoke about Microsoft and having video links across the country. As the Taoiseach knows this requires full width broadband which is not available in many of the decentralisation programme locations. Does the Taoiseach accept the programme has failed in reaching its set targets? Is he serious about a review in 2011, as some time before a general electing would not normally be in the offing? The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny, unfortunately, is not a supporter of the programme. In this phase of the programme, over 6,000 public and civil servants will be relocated. Over 14,000 public and civil servants applied to the Central Applications Facility, which highlights a signifi- cant demand. The programme and relocation must also fit in with the proper management and skills sets that are required in the various organisations which are been administratively relocated. I do not agree with the characterisation that it has not been a success. As Deputy Kenny said, he cannot indicate any location where it has not been a success and completed. Speak to any staff in decentralised offices—— Deputy Enda Kenny: This programme sought to have 10,000 public and civil servants moved. The Taoiseach: The programme was the most ambitious ever devised in the State. It aimed to include not only those Departments which had a tradition of decentralisation and interop- erability but also the wider public service and agencies in which these traditions did not exist.
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