615 Appropriation {No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, !9P7 616 THE APPROPRIATION (NO. 2) of the various Ministries. But what is actually BILL, 1967—contd. happening is that the General Budget being such important subject by itself most of the be created as if I have any sympathy with the Members speak on the economy of the country Federation proposal. That is a preposterous and on the general Budget proposals. proposal and it should be withdrawn. Whatever is said by some Members about the work of the other Ministries becomes so diffused and proliferated that it does not serve any useful purpose and it does not create any THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I may tell impact on the Government on the basis of Members that yesterday a number of which reforms may be made in the various members were absent and I find their names Ministries. So ii is necessary that there should again today. That means they will be keeping be a detailed discussion about the various out some of those who want to speak. Any- Ministries separately in this House so that we way, Mr. Krishan Kant. can make an impact on the Ministries. The Finance Minister while-replying naturally SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): deals with the points raised in respect of the You distribute the time among those who are Budget proposals and whatever has been said present. in respect of other things goes down the drain. I do not think we should be bogged down by SHRI KRISHAN KANT (Haryana) : tradition. In the new circumstances we should Madam Deputy Chairman, I congratulate Shri try to think anew and adapt ourselves to the Morarji Desai for having taken up the demands of the changing situation. After the portfolio of Finance. To take up this portfolio last elections the question of Centre-State is to accept a challenge that the present relations has assumed a new orientation and deteriorating state of the economy presents. we in the Rajya Sabha should have We were in a difficult position even earlier opportunities to discuss it in its various facets. but after devaluation it became worse. Only a That is possible only if we discuss tbo working brave man could have dared to take up the and administration of the various Ministries. chaLenge. The Budget he presented was not a Besides other Ministries, the work of the spectacular one but we appreciate the difficult Home Ministry assumes special importance situation in which he had to do it. I do hope because it has much to do with the Centre- that after presiding over the destiny of the State relations. Ministry of Finance for a year he will be able to present a Budget which will fulfil the aspirations of the country. I also welcome his The Constitution provides for the Deputy, Mr. K. C. Pant, and I hope he will be nomination of certain Members like scientists, a good addition to the Cabinet. educationists, artists and others, to ;the Rajya Sabha and it should be a special responsibility First of all, I would like to say that we in of the Rajya Sabha to discuss the state of Rajya Sabha are not able to fulfil our Science in the country. Science today is obligations fully. We represent the States and changing the face of human society. It has not we should be able to discuss 'ha relationship merely a direct relation to economic growth of the States with tn= Centre and look after of any country but is evolving a new culture- their interests in respect of the various and a new civilization. One of the dominant Ministries. We are given the opportunity to features of our time is that the growth of speak on the Budget and the Appropriation science and technology Bills and at that time we can speak on the functioning 617 Appropriation {No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 618 [Shri Krishan Kant.] has given a concreate The Budget is and can be a powerful shape and meaning to such concepts as instrument to nirect national effort? towards welfare S ate, modernity and progress. This is national goals. There is need for a clear shown by the willingness and ability of a articulation of the national goals in the field of nation to accept social change. It is no doubt scientific research and education, for true that the Government of India has been formation o! a strategy to achieve these goals conscious of the possibilities of science in and then for giving expression to these goals bringing a new order, both physical and and stra'egy in the Budget. Of course the social. But we have not gone deeper to study goals to be achiv-ed in the field of science are whether the present state of Indian society is a part of the economic, social and political receptive to natural discipline of science. We objectives of the country. The present Budget have to be consciously aware to examine in lacks this. this House what sort of social dynamic process is set in motion when a highly Incidentally I would like to /efer to the traditional social structure is brought face to Grants for the Ministry of Education where face with the vigour and dynamism of modern science. It is only by discussion in this House for the Jawaharlal Nehru University and for a University in NEFA only a sum of Rs. 7.5 that we will be able to feel and locate the lakhs has been provided. Last year originally social points of pressure, where a traditional Rs. 100 lakhs was provided which was later society like India would, if stressed, yield revised to Rs. 80 lakhs, I think enough rapidly to the form of change and growth. attention is not being paid to NEFA. The real difficulty here is that we have had no Besides, Members of the Rajya Sabha, intellectual contact with the people of that being a little free from the pressures of the area. If we could have established such constituencies, can give a more unbiased intellectual contact by opening a University attention in respect of the subjects under there in 1947 itself the present situation that discussion and put forward suggestions and we face there today would not have arisen. proposals for implementation. So it is very When the resources are very limted as in our necessary that the Rajya Sabha should not case there vf all the more need for a scientific remain tied down bv the conservative and objective evaluation of competing procedures adopted in the earlier years which demands. A good deal of attention is of course are only continuation of the Older thinking being already paid to this subject. However it about the functions of the Upper House. Rajya may be desirable to obtain not only expert Sabha has got to take it.3 due place which has economic advice but also scientific advice in been denied to it up till now. I hope we will the preparation of Budgets. Scientists should not be bogged down by mere official and also be associated in preparing the Budgets. In para-constitutional thinking. The the context of our times it is not only im- constitutional position of this House nseds to portant to find more resources for su-h be interpreted in the changer! and changing subjects like education and scientific research social conditions of the country. This House but we have also to find new ways of should be taken as akin to the Senate of spending to meet the new demands and America. A new corr.iention should be aspirations. We have also to give serious established giving enlarged powers to the thought to increasing the effectiveness and Rajya Sabha and it should discuss the efficiency of our current spending, and radical functioning of the various Ministries. changes are necessary in this field. 619 Appropriation [RAJYA SABHA] Bill1967 620 The defence budget should incorporate Xapitza, the great Russian scientist, who more considerations of 'cost wrote: "A lady has sent 100 roubles, buy effectiveness'. The possibility of cutting whatever you wish." Bu; there was an down defence expenditure and yet raising additional condition, namely, that you the level of effective military strength must not "buy anything white or anything should not be dismissed lightly. This black, you must not say 'Yes' and you matter needs very careful consideration. I must not say 'No'", etc. So, it turned out know the Ministry is doing that but more that one could not spend the 100 roubles attention needs to be paid to this. without trickery. A Director is in a similar position. He is given money, but is severely limited in spending it. The The present administrative and situation is very much worse in India. financial procedures are often an accretion Before we reach the take-off stage, we and a legacy of the past which was totally should see that the creative worker is not different from the needs and challenges discouraged, but encouraged. that we face today. If we are to get value for the money we spend on education and scientific research, it is most It was somewhat amusing to find that important to ensure that administrative and both in the U.K. and in India the financial procedures are appropriate to and expenditure on research and development in keeping with the spirit and efficient is very nearly equal to the income from functioning of scientific and educa- excise duty on tobacco. In the U.K. tional institutions. Laboratories are not the expenditure on research and offices, nor are they factories. Their development in 1966 was £ 1,000 m per climate and their ethos are different. year and the excise duty from tobacco was This has to be taken into account in £ 61,020 m. In India the excise duty organising the administration of from tobacco during 1965-66 was Rs. 99 laboratories and their accounting crores and during 1966-67 it was Rs. 107 procedures. In this connection the crores. The total research and most urgent need is in the field of development expenditure is difficult to agricultural research. Serious thought estimate, but it is of the order of Rs. 100 should be given to providing for crores. It is important that some agricultural research a type of serious effort is made to obtain a organisation, procedure for recruitment reliable estimate of the total research of staff, procedure for sanctioning of and development effort in India including grants for capital equipment on somewhat what is spent on defence and agriculture. the lines that apply to the Atomic Energy The published Budget figures hardly Department, which is one of our highly give any information on that point. successful organisations. It is not unoften that dialogues between well-meaning .competent officers of the Finance Ministry and the representatives of the In the rapid development of science and research and educational organisations are technology in the country foreign aid and disheartening and frustrating. Atten- collaboration has been of considerable tion at the highest level has to be given importance. This is likely to become even more important in the years to come. It is to improve the present situation so that important that if foreign aid is to be used instead of spreading frustration and effectively and wisely, there has to be indifference, the dialogues between those some co-ordination council to coordinate who provide the money and those who broadly the several foreign aid have the responsibility and obligation to programmes in the field of science, use it, are constructive and creative. In this connection I may refer to what Prof. RS i—5. 621 Appropriation <.No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, l'J67 622 [Shri Krishan Kant.] new products. To quote Mendels- education and research. The council sohn:— should be of an advisory nature but of sufficiently high level, so that its "It may well be a part of Indian recommendations would carry weight failure to develop science rapidly, that and confidence. First, it can work her industry had too much of a helping informally and then formal shape can be hand from outside. By relying on given. In the case of foreign assistance it ready-made importation of such of her must be remembered that only that new manufacturing capacity, she has country deserves foreign assistance, gained a little time, but lost the which can do without foreign assistance. incentive for creating her own The targets and priorities must be defined technology." by ourselves and not by others. It would be fruitful here to look into-the foreign collaboration agreements to With each successive Plan, India's import the developed technology and dependence on external economic aid has know-how. Beginning from the Second steadily increased, but of more Plan there has been a substantial increase importance our dependence on scientific in the number of foreign collaboration aid from abroad, in terms of both men agreements entered into by Indian and money, has also increased. The full industry. Between 1957 and 1965, it is impact of this aid on the vitality and estimated that the number of foreign inter-dependence of Indian science has collaborations entered into by Indian yet to be assessed. An assessment should industry was as many as 2358. A be made throwing more light on the substantial number of these foreign following points: — collaboration arrangements are in the field of electrical machinery, other items of machinery and chemicals and phar- (i) Was all the aid received really maceuticals. As an instrument for rapid necessary, i.e., did it play a industrial development and technological really indispensable role? improvement, there is need to keep open the door for advanced technology to enter the country. Exchange of technical know- (ii) How was it utilised? and how even among developed countries is a common phenomenon. A part of the rapid industrial development attained by Japan (iii) What impact did it make on in recent years is attributed to the creating a better scientific climate? readiness with which she bought up technical know-how -from other countries. Basically there is, therefore, no objection to buying technology from This assessment is rather important at the abroad. Very often this might be cheaper present time in view of the observation and quicker than the development of that many leading Western scientists domestic technology which might require have made of the relative vigour and years of research. What is, however, ob- potential for self-sustaining growth of jectionable is the complete dependence Indian and Chinese science. The claim for technology on foreign collaboration. that the very isolation of Chinese science This dependence has manifested itself in has contributed to its strength is that it two directions. Firstly the same has forced Chinese scientists to innovate technology has been bought up by several and develop both new processes and entrepreneurs in the same industry, paying each time a 623 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 624 substantial amount. There has been no attempt ments, it will be found that we are in a large to disseminate technology once bought to number of cases paying for obsolete other industrial enterprises in India. Secondly, technology for which no payment need be having once bought a technology, there has made at all. Because we have adopted been no attempt to adapt it to India conditions outdated techniques of production and our or to improve on it. The result has been that, products are invariably costlier than our while technological improvements have been competitors abroad. Having once bought a continuously taking place abroad, the Indian technology we have to adapt it to Indian units continue to base their production on the conditions and also improve on it by our own old technology that was bought years ago. If research and developmental efforts. some of them had the foresight to keep abreast of the developments in technology, this was Rapid technological improvements are more often than not achieved by entering into going on abroad. Developed nations are much fresh collaborations for the newer technology. ahead of us and they have huge resources to There has been no attempt to develop and im- spend on industrial development. If we are to prove the technology within the country itself. overtake them in this one-way traffic in Several instances could be mentioned where technology, we must organise parallel there has been a repetitive purchase of the research in modern techniques. Japan has same technology from abroad. These could be shown the way how it is possible to carry on found in the field of machine tools, medicinal research and development at a comparatively products, plastics, nylon, caustic soda, cheaper cost. For this purpose, the CSIR and fertilisers and several other industries. This industries must join hands in a co-operative repetitive purchase of technology has meant a effort. I learn that Dr. Atmaram is trying to d0 considerable avoidable drain on foreign ex- this. I have no doubt that once this is done we change. In Japan technology is bought only shall also be able to boast, as Japan does, that once and subsequent units are developed once a technology is purchased, we do not go thereafter by disseminating this technology to on purchasing fresh technology again and the other units. Lack of research on borrowed again. I realise that in a poor country like ours, technology to improve it and to keep abreast it may not always be possible to build up of latest developments has meant that adequate research facilities. At the same time, subsequent payments had to be made by the there is large scope for common pooling of same units to purchase the improved resources within the industry and this should technology. There are several ins--tances of enable us to set up active, vigorous research this character and more particularly in the and development establishments. I am field of pharmaceutical products and definitely of the view that we must make fertilisers. The fertiliser controversy is well drastic changes in our policy in this regard. known. While it may not always be possible Firstly, we should, as far as possible, avoid to set up the expensive research facilities repetitive agreements with different parties for required in some of the sophisticated the same end-product and similar know-how. processes, there are several areas in which Secondly, the technical know-how period common pooling of resources within the should not be automatically extended as industry should enable research heretofore. The entrepreneurs should be told establishments being set up to improve on in the very beginning that the period of the borrowed technology and to keep abreast of agreement is meant to be observed and not to latest developments. If a scrutiny is made of be violated with applications for further our numerous collaboration agree- extension. This will 625 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA J Bill, 1967 626

• [Shri Krishan Kant.] "India's per capita income in 1966- compel them to develop indigenous 67 was 5.5 per cent lower compared to research facilities. Moreover, since there the level two years ago. will be no repetitive agreements, research and developmental work can be carried According to the latest official on by pooling the resources of various estimates, national income in 1966-67 units manufacturing the same product. was roughly of the order of Rs. 22,950 Thirdly, it is high time that a definite pro- crores, against Rs. 20,190 crores in gramme of action was chalked out for 1965-66, at current prices. research and development. A generalised and diffused programme like the one Of the 13.7 per cent increase 10.5 carried on under the aegis of the CSIB per cent is attributed to the rise in the will not help us. What is immediately price level, the remaining 3.2 per cent needed is energetic pursuit of being the ''real" annual increase. developmental work in certain well- known fields like machine tools, Since in 1965-66 national income in chemicals, drugs and pharmaceuticals, real terms had declined by about 3.7 fertilisers, electrical appliances and heavy per cent compared to the previous machinery industries. If all concerned in year, the increase of 3.2 per cent in each individual field join together in a co- 1966-67 was still about 0.6 per cent operative effort, 1 am sure the financial lower than the 1964-65 level. burden will not be prohibitive. There is adequate* technological talent in the On the other hand, compared to country. Today many of our technicians 1964-65, the country's population in are languishing for lack of scope and 1966-67 is estimated to be higher by encouragement. I would rather put up 4.9 per cent, therefore, per capita with many setbacks in our industrial income in 1966-67 was lower than the development than permit large-scale 1964-65 level by 5.5 per cent." technological unemployment. Ther are alreday too many technicians going about without jobs. It is high time a well thought-out programme of action for research and development for various important industries was chalked out and implemented.

627 Appropriation {No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 628

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633 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 634

635 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 636 KUMARI SHANTA VASISHT: Whoever may be managing. SHRI LOKANATH MISRA (Orissa): It must be Minister of Par- liamentary Affairs. KUMARI SHANTA VASISHT: You please keep quiet, Mr. Misra. You will have enough to hear from me about you. So take it easy. It is all coming. Madam, this Appropriation Bill has Come. In the meantime many serious developments have taken place in our country about which, I think, a large number of people should be deeply concerned. ' I am one of those who are very much concerned about it. Madam, I would like to point out that the Government seems to be changing, its policy in very many fundamental matters. We have been following a certain ideology, a certain policy about industry, about heavy industry, about the public sector, about the co-operative sector and so on and so forth. That was the policy and programme of the Congress orga- nization carried out by the Congress Government. But I am sorry to say, Madam, that in internal matters con- cerning the country itself, our policies are deviating from what was laid down during Jawaharlal Nehru's time. It does not make much difference that his daughter is the Prime Minister now. Now we Congressmen do not mind if the policies are to be changed from what we have learnt them to be but then a formal and proper decision shall be taken to change these. I shall give you a few instances. KUMARI SHANTA VASISHT Madam, planning was one of our main (Delhi): Madam Deputy Chairman, first planks. We had gone from village to of all, I would like to convey to the village propagating planning, explaining Chairman through you, Madam, that to the people what planning is and how many a time some of us do not get the our resources are supposed to be used for opportunity to speak. Though our names the betterment and welfare of the people. are given again and again, somehow it is Three plans have gone by and now there so managed that some of us do not get is a two-year Plan holiday. Still people the opportunity to speak. do not know about Plan. There is nothing even on the paper to show what our SHRI A. D. MANI (Madhya Pradesh) : Who manages? 637 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1367 638 [Kumari Shanta Vasisht.] Plans are Please do not worry. I hope it will be supposed to be. Cabinet formation takes implemented. We are concerned about it place within a few hours. But it takes because w have believed in planning, months and years for the Planning e the Government has believed in planning Commission to be constituted. and our leaders have been saying that we want planning, but under various Madam, I know as every other pressures, we have just put it in the cold Member knows that in the country there storage. is a very strong pressure group which is always against planning, which is Another point, I want to mention is anxious to see that there is no plan, that about industries. On the one hand we are there should be only private enterprise talking about self-sufficiency in the and a laissez faire. Without saying it in country—that we are not going to depend so many words we have obliged them, on anybody, we are going to make the obliged people like Mr. Lokanath Misra. country self-sufficient, etc., etc. But even I think my party has deviated in this for biscuits and such other things, we respect from planning. That is number want foreign collaboration, which means one. we must be able to have foreign exchange, which means that the foreign So, also regarding controls. Large exchange balance must continue to be numbers of our Members realise that in unfavourable for us. Every time foreign this economic condition of our country, exchange is not available, or the foreign when we are complaining, about rising countries or those powers and collabo- prices and hardship to people, controls rators do not want to help us, our have been done away with. Prices of industries must really have to face various commodities have risen. When closure. In that case, our labourers must prices of commodities like coal, sugar, create noise and get upset and there steel or cement rise, naturally all other should be economic distress and prices will also rise. On the one hand, we unemployment. And We shall be faced profess that we want to check prices and ultimately with what? Greater law and towards that end will do everything in our order problem, apart from economic power. But on the other hand, we do distress and industrial disturbances of this everything else which will give a fillip to kind. I think Government is following a the rising prices. Therefore, it seems to very shortsighted policy and it is a very rne that we say one thing but we do wrong policy also that we are wasting, something quite different because of so our time and money in rayons and bis- many pressure groups who want these cuits, in this and that, in a country where controls to go so that the private we are not able to provide drinking water enterprise can nourish as our friend, Mr. in various parts of India. A glaring Misra, wants and his party wants. My example is Bihar; a glaring example is party, unfortunately, is more anxious to parts of Uttar Pradesh. But we are follow the policy of the Swatantra Party thinking of biscuits with vitamins and so and such other allied parties rather than on. People do not even have adequate follow the policy of the Congress as it food. We are not able to give them should be. I am sorry that we should drinking water. We are talking about all deviate from our policies. Our Plan has sorts of things. I think our Ministers are been given a go by. When it will come far away from reality, if I may say so. nobody knows. What will come nobody They are not in touch with the people. knows. How it will be implemented we They do not know what is happening. do not know, (mterruption) I know it will They think this is a cinema house that you come and I hope it will be implemented. are sitting in and you see a nice picture— 4interruption by Shri I. K. Gujral) good, bad or indifferent— comedy or tragedy; but the moment 639 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 640

who are so close to the P.M., those you leave the House, yt>u feel the thing i s Ministers also, who are not really over. So also when they hear such things, directly under other Ministers, submit to they have no idea about how things are them and listen to them and try to please and what it means to the people at large the associates so that the Prime Minister in the country. Only they get shock after also may remain pleased. This sort of shock and they get immune even to the functioning is not good for the party. It shocks. I feel, Madam, that with this is not good for the Government deviation from the Congress policy and either because the Government is ideology we are working very much in based and works on the consensus of line with the Swatantra Party and various opinion of the Party that the Government other parties in India. The only saving has the backing of the party. They feature I can see and in which I shall cannot work in isolation, nor can two or defend the Government with all my might three or four people can really run the is the Government's West Asian policy. I show. This sort of extremely partisan man- am very glad that in spite of heavy ner of working the Government criticism, th Government followed the e through a few people who can be policy as laid down for the last 20 years counted on finger-tips is not very of non-alignment and supporting those healthy. We have a democratic working. countries to whom we have given full Democracy does not work by support before. I fully stand by that and I handpicked people or by your personal appreciate that our Government did not friends. It works on the basis of the Party deviate in that particular respect. But in that is elected, the policy that it formulates various other respects they have deviated and the consensus of opinion that the and I do not feel happy about it at all. Party has. Therefore, we do not feel very So also I would like to say that the happy that people should go about Government is now very much in the throwing their weight about. I would like hands of a few people who are very close an enquiry to be conducted as to how to the Prime Minister. They have her many of these people have been given ears and also they have a blank cheque various committees, of the Parliament from her. The doors of her house are only or otherwise, and have distributed patron- open to them and not to others. When she age only to their own friends and was elected the Leader, she said—I do not their own people. They have rotated know who had prepared her speech—that patronage only among a very small no member should feel isolated; but no coterie which is also around that coterie or steps have been taken by her to see that the in the periphery of that coterie. Are you members are not feeling isolated, that not distributing every single thing that is in they are all party to the Government, that the power of the Government only to one they have support and co-operation and section of people who happen to be their participation in the Government itself. friends, who are near the Prime Minister This has not been done . . . The and doing no more than that? May I also trouble is . . . (interruption) I point out as to how much other benefits, know what the trouble is. I can tell etc., have been given by these people who you what the trouble is. These people are near the Prime Minister only to certain have a blank cheque from her. They people who happen to be their friends? . function in an aggressive and high-handed . . (interruption) Please do not take my manner. Some of her Ministers, who are time. I would like to mention another very close to her, also put their pressure on point. I think it is for the Prime Minister various Ministries and departments— to see how far she would like participation whether it is Housing Ministry or of the entire Party (Interruption) any other Ministry—and because of the regarding fear of these people Centre-State relations ...... She is very popular with the Opposition Par- 641 Appropriation (No.2)[ [RAJYA SABHA] ]Bill, 642

[Kumari Shanta Vasisht.] development work in the country and the major ties and she is the hope of the Opposition development programmes in our country. I Parties. But her own Party is ignored. Mr. have met a large number of tourists; many Misra is most pleased with the Prime of them tire my friends because I had been a Minister. The D.M.K. are pleased with the student in their country long ago. Whenever Prime Minister. Our P.S.P. Members are they see our village programmes, a new well, a pleased with her. Why do they complain new street pavement or better drainage or a about Centre-State relations? Oentre-State school building. or a panchayat ghar or a relations are very good. There is nothing storage go-down, they are deeply pleased about wrong about it. The Opposition Parties are them. As far as luxuries are concerned, they getting along very nicely with the Prime have more than enough luxuries in their own Minister. If anybody is grumbling, it is the countries. They are not hungry for luxuries. Congress Party. What do these people have to They are not hungry for these ordinary hotels. grumble about? Therefore, Madam, I feel that They have the best of hotels in their country. this needs a lot to be improved upon. A lot They do not come here for that. They would has to be improved and changed. Therefore . . like to see the work done in our country. If . (interruption) I do not need your advice; I our people were not starving, if they were not will not take it. short of drinking water, the foreign tourist will go back much more satisfied and pleased and delighted with our work. He is not fascinated Madam, this Government wants to by your tower. You can waste your money. appropriate money. A tremendous You can oblige the contractors and you can amount of wastage is done. Thousands and have the contractors help you in the elections. thousands of rupees are wasted on But it is not going to help you country, if I may revolving towers all sorts of expensive say so. buildings and luxury buildings, all sorts of murals to patronise certain particular friends and all sorts of statues to be made in front of Then, Madam, many a time I have been some bank or some building which is wondering what happened in the last connected with the Finance Ministry, if I elections. I have a very strong suspicion that remember correctly. I do not see why Rs. money from outside this country—whether it 80,000 or Rs. 1 lakh should be wasted on came from the West or from Russia, wherever it might have come from—came here and things like these when the same amount can be spent more usefully. This revolving tower is played its part to defeat a large number of not a rush job. The rush job is providing Congress leaders. I want the Government to drinking water taps in Bihar and in other areas. find out as to from where all the money came They do not feel so deeply about this. They and where it all went, how many Ministers go round touring the country which give? a lot collected how much money and how they of publicity and presents a very good image. spent it, how it was used and whether some of The country wants to function only on the it was used to defeat Congress people and basis of this publicity. This projection of Congress leaders. I think this is a very serious the image has become the newest matter if foreign money is to play a part in our obsession of our country and our leaders. elections and affect our elections and we are We want to projects the image like the bound to protest against it and take exception radiation of the sun's rays. But I think that it to it. But I think money has come and it has should be backed with concrete work. They gone a long, way to defeat a large number of say that we want to cater to the foreign Congress Governments and Congress leaders tourists. The foreign tourists are always glad and we take it very seriosuly. It is to see any development work in the rural areas, any 643 Appropriation (Ao. Z) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 644 the responsibility of the Government to find out there are various things which come along with how much money came and from where it came the money and money becomes your God for and how it was spent. It is very serious. all practical purposes. It has strings, visible or Various explanations are given that this hap- invisible. It has the worst effect of brain- pened or that happened. The Government washing people so that when this foreign cannot allow foreign money to come and play money comes a large number of people become into our politics. Some day if this money can defendors and votaries of some other thinking be used to defeat my adversaries or defeat one ilso. I may point out that sometimes Pandit political party of certain leaders who are Nehru was criticised. You could go to very inconvenient to me, tomorrow, the same many groups of people and they would criticise money can also come and can be used against Pandit Nehru and one or two would defend me also, not only against my adversaries alone. Pandit Nehru but now you go to groups of Therefore I think the Government have a peopie— by and large educated people—and responsibility that they should find out how this you criticise one particular country which is has been done. They should also find out a very powerful country and half a dozen will and appoint a Committee about it to enquire get up to defend that country. There cannot into what happened, how much money was be a single group in the urban areas where collected. For one thing, Ministers should never somebody will not get up and defend that collect money. If they collect money, it is a foreign country but in all these groups people wrong system. Political parlies have a right to may not get up to defend Mr. Nehru but they collect money but Ministers have no would stand up and defend that foreign right to collect money but if they collect money, country because either they have had education people will doubt that they have got all the in that country or they have had collaboration money because they are Ministers; otherwise with that country or that country is able to why do they not get the money Secondly we influence your administrators or they are able to doubt as to how that money has been used. collaborate with your industrialists or they are It has been used to finance against Congress able to oblige your bureaucracy by giving people. Therefore I wish that m'onev should go them all sorts of exchanges or tours, etc. only to political parties for election purposes. Whatever it may be, the brainwashing has been It should not go to Ministers or other office- done very beautifully in this country about bearers or those who have patronages to distri- which you can do nothing. Even if to-day they bute. If money is going to come like this, then want to reject our Prime Minister, half a dozen when we are no more in office, probably we people will crop up overnight and they will will become paupers and all this money will condemn her because the brainwashing has go to Mr. Lokanath Misra and I would not like been done on such a vast scale, on such a large that state of affairs that when they become scale that even if you start social education pro- Ministers they should get it. I think this is a grammes or primary education programmes serious thing. A convention should be or compulsory education programmes, the de- established that money should not be washing process can not be done by this collected like this. We also feel that this Government because this process has gone far sort of thing in the elections has very serious and wide even among the uneducated people, repercussions and we would not like these among the students, among the newspapers, trends to continue in this country and they among the industry, among your should be .checked. bureaucrats, among, the youth and among Foreign collaborations should be cut down the leaders and everybody. Therefore our to the very minimum because if your country stands in very many dangers. industries are to depend on them, 645 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 646 [Kumari Shanta Vasisht.] avoided unless we have a radical outlook to I thank you and I want the Government to follow and reformulate our policies, as our correct all these thing's, if they can. friend Miss Vasisht said. As I am a confirmed Socialist by conviction, many Members opposite might have inhibition against me THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chitta when I analyse these facts, but I am going to Basu. quote a certain authority in the country, in whom I believe the Government has got every

SHRI CHITTA BASU (West Bengal) : confidence. I would like to quote the opinion Madam, we are discussing the Appropriation of the Chairman Of the Industrial Credit and Bill under the lengthening shadow of our Investment Corporation. In the course of his everdeepening crisis, a crisis not of an address to the annual general meeting of the ordinary nature which is usual with many shareholders, after characterising the crisis nations but the crisis that we are faced with which is overcoming the nation, he said: today is of an extraordinary nature and has serious repercussions on our economy and the "During the last three years the economy nation's life as well. It is apparent that this has shown visible and persistent signs of crisis has been revealed not only by the faltering and this is a matter which should stagnation in production and recession in cause concern to all of us. The stagnation trade but it has become all the more alarming can no longer be taken as aberration of a because it arise out of some basic, fiscal and secular trend, nor can it be attributed solely economic policies of the Government. It is not to the extraneous events like the border a transient phenomenon. It is the precursor of troubles and stoppage of foreign aid, our ruination and reversal of the basic policies though this might have been the initiating for which we have stood. or contributing factor. Gradually the stagnation has become pervasive affecting all sectors of economy (including for THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI RAM NIWAS instance transport and trade sector) and it MIRDHA) in the Chair] has persisted too long to be ignored as transient phenomenon. Overproduction This crisis is born out of the fundamental rather than shortage has become more weakness in the basic, fiscal and economic persistent and pervasive phenomenon in the policies of the Government. Therefore we are economy". to find out what are those fundamental AN HON MEMBER: You are quoting reasons out of which this crisis is going to envelope our entire economy 'ind the country from a capitalist paper? as a whole. The crisis is the outcome of our unusual dependence on the foreign powers in SHRI CHITTA BASU: If a capitalist the economic field. This is the first reason. economist says that, you know what is the Secondly this crisis arises out of our position. You must have the intelligence to continued reliance on the capitalist path of understand that. The stag nation in development which the Government has production has set in anc*. you know that the chosen to-day. Thirdly, this crisis has arisen production programme of the Hindustan out of the determined efforts on the part of Machine Tools has been slashed down. Even the ruling party to pass on the burden of the the machine manufacturing in the textile crisis on the common masses whose back is industry has also been upset because there is already crippled by so many hardships. I shall no demand for the use of those machines in try to analyse this to show that this crisis the various units of the textile industry. cannot be What is the 647 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 20 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 648 reason? The reason is, when our planners set remedies than offering more concessions to the target for machine-making industries, they the private sector of the industry, no other did not create proper conditions so that there remedies than lifting the controls on goods, can be a corresponding expansion of the in- where they exist, in order to allow the nrivate dustries which will instal those machines capitalists to raise prices and thereby raise manufactured by the machine-making units. their profits. All this the Congress Here lies the crux of the problem. So long, in Government does in the name of providing season and out Of season, it has been the them with incentives to fight the depression. practice of the Congress planners to say that In 1963, Sir, you know, the Government in increased production lies the way out. But decontrolled certain varieties of steel, which here we see that there is over-production and were followed by other varieties, and again, in the economy is not even able to absorb the 1966, the Government decontrolled cement, little bit of increase that has been effected. not only its price but its distribution also. An Why? The reason is this: There has been a important feature of the economic relaxation basic malady in the economy, for which there has been the freeing of a large number of in- cannot be rapid industrialisation. Unless the dustries from the provisions of the Industries agrarian system, which still allows of feudal (Development and Regulation) Act. Now we elements in it, is changed to fit in with the know that coal is going to be decontrolled, growing pace of industrialisation, you cannot even coking coal is going to be decontrolled, unleash the latent forces and unless you bring thereby providing the industry the incentive to about radical changes in the agrarian system raise the price of coal, thereby providing you cannot raise the purchasing power of the scope to the capitalists to raise their profits. vast bulk of our population, who are peasants, Now I know that to offer this kind of and unless their purchasing capacity is in- concessions more and more to the capitalists creased, there cannot be rapid indus- has been the usual weapon at the hands of the trialisation. capitalists to avoid the depression. But if Shis process continues, the crisis cannot be Sir, during all these years they have been overcome; we cannot get rid of the crisis, and saying that they are developing socialism it is well known to all of us in this House that, through planning. No, it is not a fact. They in their bid to woo the foreign capitalists, have not been developing socialism under more and more concessions are being given planning. What they have developed and now. In the name of devaluation we have what they still aspire to develop is capitalism mortgaged the economic interests of our in the private sector and capitalism in the country and we have not hesitated to work at public sector too. I do not want to explain it the dictates of the World Bank and the Bell for want of time. Therefore, this is the basic Mission, and you know, Sir, this that our for- malady of the planning itself. mer imperialist masters and other foreign capitalist countries want that our plans should Now let us see how the Congress be so scuttled that their purposes are served in Government wants to overcome this crisis. As this country. It is well known that during the I have outlined earlier, it is certainly not in first year of the Fourth Plan Rs. 2,000 crores the socialist way; it is in the capitalist way, were allocated. In the second year of the that is, at the cost of the people, throwing the Fourth Plan, so far as we know, only Rs. 1700 entire burden of the crisis on the common crores have been allocated—it has been man's back. Then, they have no other decreased—of course under the garb of remedies than offering more concessions to adjusting our plan to the available resources. the capitalists, no other This 649 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 650 [Shri Chitta Basu.] is only to accommodate socialist countries of Europe, Africa and the foreign capitalists and their interests in Latin America, we can never attain the this country, so that they may have enough balance of trade between exports and scope to continue their plunder and loot in imports. And in this export trade there is one this country and so that our plans should not sordid tale, Sir. You know the example of the be developed in such a way whereby we may export of sugar, where we had to in-cure a attain self-sufficiency in the near future. It is loss of Rs. 20 crores in 1966 to earn a foreign again to please the American creditors and exchange of only Rs. 17.5 crores, and the the Indian monopolists that high priority has expected loss of the year 1967 is Rs. 16 been given to industries connected with crores for a foreign exchange earning of Rs. export, and low priority given to the basic 14 crores only. This is just an example to products which may lead our .country to show how we have promoted our export attain self-sufficiency. trade. Again the basic malady comes trom our Sir, you know that our exports have not basic weakness, out of the utter dependence increased although there have been so many of our country on foreign countries, and this measures for export promotion. I can cite dependence on foreign countries is on a rapid examples; I can even quote the opinion of our increase. The percentage of India's foreign Finance Minister. He says: debt to her total debt has increased in the way I am going to quote. In 1950-51 it was 1.28 "Demand conditions in some of our per cent. In 1960-61 it was 12.16 per cent; in major markets abroad have also been 1965-66 it was 24.06 per cent; in 1966-67 it slack. These and other developments in was 33.57 per cent, and in 1967-68 it is world markets have tended to depress the expected to become 36 per cent. Now these value of Our traditional exports, for figures will show how, right from the year example, tea, jute manufacturers and 1950-51, to the year 1967-68 the percentage cotton fabrics." of our foreign debt to total debt has increased. It has increased by leaps and bounds. Again if Sir, you know we have got our traditional you look at the figures of our foreign debts markets for our exports from which we you will find that in 1950-51 they stood at Rs. cannot break away. And now, even after 32 crores. But in the year 1967-68 the figure devaluation, we get less foreign exchange is Rs. 5,413 crores. See these figures which through our exports, and we have to pay more are enormous and which can destroy our when we import. On these unequal terms we economy itself. There is also the question of are continuing our export r:md import trade. servicing these foreign debts. In the first year And that being the case, never has there been of the Third Plan we were required to spend an occasion when our exports and imports Rs. 52.4 crores for the purpose of servicing have been completely and perfectly balanced, our foreign debt. Now it has shot up to Rs. and it is my considered opinion that we 147 crores. In the last year of the Third Plan it cannot attain that perfect balance of our has increased enormously. Therefore, our export and import trade if it is left entirely in liabilities under our foreign debt are the hands of the private capitalists, and if our increasing day by day. Even the Draft Outline export trade continues absolutely with the of the Fourth Five Year Plan has envisaged traditional markets and if we do not choose to that the charge for servicing our foreign debt break away from the traditional markets and would be about Rs. 1,300 crores which comes expand and diversify our export trade to more than Rs. 200 crores a year. Now, with other when 651 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 652

our export trade is only Rs. 800 crores, how has ultimately to think of this crisis and to is it possible for us to meet these charges find ways and means of overcoming the crisis. even for servicing our foreign debt? I feel that the evolutionary way and the speed witn which we have been going are Dot at all Sir, you know that our Finance Minister is enough to overcome the present crisis. The only interested in begging for foreign capital. problems are like the Himalayas and further They are now trying to re-schedule the Himalayan problems are being added to this payment of our foreign debt. We have no country every day with the increase of nearly clear plans for paying our foreign debt. Why 50,000 people every day. Out of these 50,000 should the Government be afraid of declaring, some 14,000 or 15,000 pass away. Even then a moratorium on the payment of our foreign this country is getting every day an addition of debts to other countries? There is no question 35,000 people to its papulation. We have to of any re-scheduling of the payment of the rehabilitate these 35,000 people in future and foreign debts. I know that the Bell Mission 'or for that at the present economic investment the World Bank is not going to re-schedule it rate every individual will require an ever-age to our advantage. of Rs. 10,000 for getting services in days to come. So in this light if we look at the In the end, Sir, I want to suggest som problem, I feel that dynamic and revolutionary e and drastic measures are absolutely necessary. measures to come out of the basic crisis we are faced with today. In order to come out of My party and the Government have been this crisis we should take over immediately telling everday that we believe in socialism in this country, that we shall shape this country the banking business in the country. We e should also nationalise the export-import in a socialist way. Please allow m to say that business and expand and diversify our trade there is much difference between what we say with other socialist and newly liberated and how we act. This difference between countries of the world. There should be precept and practice will not lead the country demonetisation in order to eradicate the evil towards the socialist goal that we want to t>f unaccounted money. We should further reach. This reminds me of a story, Sir. When I expand the public sector even in consumer look at the behaviour of the Government industries and we should recast the entire Plan towards the capitalists and towards the masses in order to expedite the pace of the advent of at large who believe in socialism, I am a socialist economy in our country. reminded of that story. A king had two queens. He was trying to satisfy them both. SHRl M. M. DHARIA (Maharashtra): Mr. One was with him and he had closed her eyes Vice-Chairman, the country has been passing and so she thought he was in love with her. through a very critical economic crisis and I The other queen was at a distance and he was would like to express rny views as to how we playing with eyes at her and smiling and so can overcome the present difficulties. I am she thought he was in love with her. I do not aware that this country has had to face two think this game of hide and seek is any good. aggressions, also that the country has had to SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: An amorous face two severe droughts. There are various description of the economic situation. difficulties fciat are being faced by the country and there are several reasons for the present economic crisis. No single person can SHRI M. M. DHARIA: I do not think, Sir, be blamed for it. However, when we think in that this present practice terms of politics it is the party in power which

653 Appropriation {No. 21 [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1987 654 [Shri M. M. Dharia.] of .the Government of giving tender treatment modern methods and produce more and more. to the capitalists who have created big How can they do that? When we make a monopolies and giving harassing treatment to demand to nationalise banks we are criticised the common man will bring in socialism. A from some quarters. Why is this demand dynamic change is absolutely necessary. I »m made? Out of a sum of Rs. 3,000 crores which happy that the All India Congress Committee is with the banks, nearly Rs. 1,000 crores are at its meeting in Delhi passed an economic invested in Government or semi-Government resolution consisting of ten points. The bodies. Then there is a sum of Rs. 2,000 Government is on trial and the Government crores with these commercial banks. Out of will be judged by what they do with regard to this Rs. 2,000 crores as much as Rs. 1,600 these ten points which were agreed upon. I crores are invested by a few families which will not repeat those points because there is are holding the balance in the economy of the not much time. It is the trial of the country. There are these few 25— 30 families Government and it has to be seen whether which are having investments to the tune of these ten points of economic programme are 80 per cent of the mQney with these being honestly implemented and that too in commercial banks. It is in this context that I tune with the time. If that is done then I have feel that the hon.. Finance Minister should try no doubt that we can regain confidence even to have social control. 1 do not know what are in those States where it has been lost. If we his ideas of social control so far. I feel that a do not do that then I am worried that the major bulk should go to agriculture and to confidence of even the remaining people in industries which are in need of capital. This the Government may be lost. If that happens I amount will decrease the power of the shall not blame the people at large, because it monopolists who have been growing in their is ultimately the Government, the party in monopolistic strength. Sir, the hon. Minister power, which has to create that confidence for Industries said in this 4 P.M. among the people. That confidence cannot be House during the last session created by slogans or by mere words. It can that a meaure will be brought be created by determination and by forward to curb these monopolies. So far I determined action. have not received a copy of the Bill. I feel— and it is my demand today—that the hon. It is iri this context that I fee! that if we Minister for Industries should come forward want to improve the economy and to with a measure to curb these monopolies as he overcome the present economic crisis, we has assured this House because otherwise it is should no longer neglect agriculture as we not possible to tide over the present economic have done in the past. There are the figures crisis and give a good turn to the economy of and we are aware that out of Rs. 20,000 crores the country. of our national income, as much as Rs. 10,200 So far as agriculture is concerned, there is crores are derived from the agriculturists But the problem of water. I have no time to go what is our credit policy towards these poor inJ:o details but I am really constrained to say, agriculturists? We give them hardly Rs. 350 when I look at the notices and the letters being crores every year and in this country we have exchanged between the various States, that the at least 35 crore acres of land. So per acre we ultimate responsibility lie? with the Central give them a credit of only Rs. 10 and then we Government. These feelings of bitterness that want these farmers, these agriculturists to go we sense among the various States are in far modern equipments and implements of because of the hesitant policy of the Central agriculture, to take to Government. Had the Central Gov- 655 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 2H JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 656 ernment taken proper care, had the Minister of and their struggles and I know it very well that Irrigation and Power taken proper care, to see even on those occasions had the Central that these disputes regarding the waters of the Government taken up a stand based on certain Krishna and the Godavari are properly resolv- principles the sense of bitterness that arose ed in time this sense of bitterness between the among the various States would not have States would not have been there. arisen, it is the primary duty of the Central Government and it is high time that the SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN (Andhra Central Government acts accordingly. Pradesh): If you will pardon me, may I ask Particularly in the context of the present why could not the Chief Ministers of the changed political map in the country when concerned States sit together arfd decide? there are Ministries of several political parties What does it matter if a thousand acres go to in the States, where there is quarrel, where the Maharashtra peasants and not to the An- there is dispute between two States, there dhra peasants or to the Mysore peasants and should be some machinery for resolving such not to the Maharashtra peasants? I think the disputes on some principles. That is my responsibility lies firstly and primarily with demand today. Of course that is not the point the three Chief Ministers concerned. They here; I just mentioned it because yesterday a should sit together and try to settle the matter. reference was made to it in the House. So this There is no party question here. is my humble submission to the hon. Minister.concerned. SHRi M M. DHARIA: Mr. Vice- Chairman, Sir, I would like to bring to the I would now come to the various economic notice of my hon. colleague that the three policies. There is the question of prices. The Chief Ministers have srt together not only prices are gone up like anything. I have got once but several times but they have failed to figures and figures but I will not take the time reach any agreement because they are inter- of the House. In order to check these prices ested parties. there is a move by the Finance Minister to SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: There is freeze both wages and also the prices. I would like to submit here today that the wages of the something seriously wrong. poor employees are not living wages. They SHRI M. M. DHARIA: In Mysore the have been struggling all these years for a irrigation is not even ten per cent; in living wage, in this country of ours there are Maharashtra it is not even nir.e per cent while nearly 25 crores of people who are not getting in Andhra it is forty per cent. We feel that even fifty paise per day and what right have when these Godavari and Krishna are passing we to freeze that wage and their earnings? It is the duty of the Government to see that the through Maharashtra and Mysore a proper rising prices are brought down and it is in this share of their waters should be given to us. context that some severe measures have to be Anyway I am not entering into those details; taken. There were slogans by our late Prime my only submission is that it is the duty of the Minister that if there is any blackmarketeer in Central Government to see that these disputes the country he will be hanged. I have so far are solved amicably by the Chief Ministers not seen anybody being hanged. and if they are not solved amicably then they should settle them through an arbitrator. Why (Interruptions). is it not being done? All this bitterness is being created because no principles are being SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; We see some applied. I have watched carefully the of them in the Treasury Benches. linguistic problems 657 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 658 SHRI M. M. DHARIA: My request is one instance from Bombay. It belongs to that the hon. Finance Minister should the Maharaja of Gwalior. There is that come forward with drastic measures property. According to my information, against such blackmarketeers in the that property has been sold and registered country, if a particular article is not at Rs. 80 lakhs. But the price when the available he should put up a board saying deed was registered was more than Rs. 2 that that article is exhausted but what crores. Why should not the Government right has he to take more price and if he investigate into this matter? It is possible. does so, why should he not be Droperly If the investigation is not possible even convisted? Let Hs have convictions for according to our present constitutional five, seven or ten years. At the same time provisions we can take over that property if anybody is found guilty of such at Rs. 80 lakhs and the Government can offences the whole of his property should sell it in auction. And it will be possible be confiscated. Why should we not come for the Government to get Rs. 2 crores or forward with such measures? I nave no more. Why should it not be done? Let doubt that it is possible to control prices these people who deal in black money suf- without freezing the wages. I would like fer. Why is not such action being taken? to make it very clear. When the poor Such action will fetch at least 1500 to employees are not getting a living wage 2000 crores. I would like also to urge that today, if their wages are frozen, it will not the Estate Duty should be made be proper; it will be very -unfair and it exorbitant. Why should the property go to will be causing more injustice to those all the heirs and successors? The who are already facing injustice. So it successor can have the housing facility should not be done. which the parents and others were having and after that if there are some dependants As far as the monetary policy is con- care would be taken by the Government cerned, I have no doubt that planned and all the property, all the shares, ail the economy is the need of the day and it is cash, everything will go to the Govern- in this context that we shall have to ment, Why should we not come forward resolve today that we shall adhere to with such a measure? We want socialism perfect planning. Unfortunately for the but we are not orepared to take any drastic last two years we have not been in a action. With all our mild measures what position to have our Fourth Five Year we have done is, we have given more and Plan Why? Should we not think about it? more protection to these big industrialists We have to think about it very seriously. I and monopolists and the poor masses are feel today that along with perfect the suffers. The entire approach shall have planning nationalisation of banking is to be changed. absolutely necessary. The export and (Time bell rings) import trade shall have to be nationalised. State trading export of foodgrains has to DR. B. N. ANTANI (Gujarat): You be resorted to in all the States. Then there should have said this in 1948. is the question of black money. Much has been said about it. Why should we not SHRI M. M. DHARIA: As the bell has come forward with drastic solutions? I been rung, I will only touch upon two would request the hon. Finance Minister more points. to look into the large number of property deals which have taken place during the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Rarely a last fifteen years. The prices of these Congressman speaks so refreshingly as properties are recorded with the he is doing. Registrars with whom the deeds are SHRl M. M. DHARIA: So far as the registered. At that price the Government policy of controls is concerned, they have should take over such properties where worked in favour of these industrialists they find that they are shady deals. I can and as soon as they go against: give 659 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 20 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 660 them we take care to lift those controls. priate the amount allotted, but what will In the case of agriculture what do we be the result at the end of the financial find? Take for instance cotton. The price year? The experience of the previous of cotton is fixed by the Textile years is very alarming, it has not given us Commissioner but so far as the textile any consolation. We know what products are concerned only 40 per cent happened in previous years. Several of the textile products are controlled and crores of rupees have been spent in the the rest is free where the millowner gets shape of Plans and other things, but it is all possible advantages while the poor an accepted fact that Birlas and Tatas cotton grower cannot get the price that he have grown richer and richer and the poor should get. I am here today to urge that people of India have become poorer and the present ceiling price should be the poorer. This is not what Mahatmaji support price and there should be no wanted when he led the people to end control on cotton. British rule. He led the people for attaining freedom from the British rule. It My last submission is regarding power was not only for Birlas and Tatas but also loom. The other day reliefs have been for the people at large. But what granted by the Finance Minister. Myself happened after gaining independence? and the hon. Mr. Kulkarni were The reactionaries of the country and the associated with that Study Group. I capitalists of the country conspired would like to say that either the report together and he was shot down and that sent by the officers and which was then too in the House of Birlas. That is very discussed is wrong or if the report is significant. After that ungrateful shot we proper then the decisions of the know that the perpetrators of that crime Government are wrong. But today I have achieved their end and they are would not like to go any further into it achieving their ends still. Every year the because I have written a detailed letter to tax is being increased and the common the hon. Finance Minister and also to the man is burdened more and more. Even a hon Prime Minister. Let me discuss this beggar has to pay tax for his tea, for his matter with them and till those coffee and if he wants to purchase discussions are over I would restrain clothes, he has to pay tax. For everything myself from making further remarks. he has to pay tax. On an everage a beggar in the street has to pay Rs. 60|- per year to In the end I would appeal to the hon. the Centre as tax. He has to pay more than Finance Minister that he should come that to the States and then he has to pay to forward with rigorous steps, with the Panchayat or municipality from where dynamic measures—today the country he comes. This is the position. So, he is needs dynamic measures, revolutionary taxed more and more. For common measures—because the masses, the poor people life has become impossible. What people, the middle class people are all is policy of the Congress? Everywhere waiting for them And if the Government leaders of the Congress were making does not take those steps in time I would declarations from the housetops that they like to warn the Government here that the want to build up a socialistic pattern of Government shall not be able to solve our society. They have accepted as their goal problems and they cannot get over the democratic socialism, but what we see is economic crisis that we have been facing that the capitalists of the country are now today. Thank you very much. controlling the money market. In fact, they are controlling many leaders of the SHRI KESAVAN (THAZHAVA) country also and poor people are starving. (Kerala): Mr. Vice-Chairman, as usual In fact, they are dying inch by inch of the Appropriation Bill is introduced, and starvation. I am coming from Kerala. We it may be passed in the usual course. The speak of national unity, but Finance Minister and the various Ministries will appro- 66l Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 662 [Shri Kesavan (Thazhava)] national our place and he made an election speech unity can be built only by parity at least in which he said that at the end of the in regard to the supply of foodgrains. First Five Year Plan we would achieve There are surplus States in India and we self-sufficiency in food. What happened? import foodgrains. Everybody knows that Is it my fault? I was not starving before and it is accepted by the Centre that independence. Perhaps you were not Kerala is a deficit area. The Centre quite okay then. I am one who fought for promised to supply 75,000 tonnes of rice independence. I also went several times per month to the Kerala State for to jail and I have suffered. That is why I distribution of 6 oz. of rice as ration per say like this. When I gave my support, it head per day. Even there they failed. In was not to starve my people. The un- fact, now the whole of Kerala people are greateful shot was not only a shot starving. prosperity of India It was a shot against the starving millions of India. It was a shot against the peace and prosperity of SHRI PC. MITRA: All Kerala India. It was a shot against the national people except the hon. Member. unity of India. What are you doing now? Are you achieving national unity now? SHRi KESAVAN (THAZHAVA): No. Disintegration is your policy. Now, When I go there I take very little rice and you have discarded sevaral States, in- actually I am starving. Here also my cluding my State. What have you given to condition is the same. I do not get rice. us? During the First Plan only a sum of Fortunately or unfortunately the staple Rs. 58 lakhs was given to us for a DDT food of a Malayali is rice. We are factory. You had promised us so many accustomed to it and we want rice. It is an things. Just before the 1962 elections, Mr. accepted fact that Kerala is a deficit area. Raj Bahadur, who was a Minister, came There is no doubt about it. Even from to Cochin and laid the foundation stone of early times it was so and we used to get a ship-building yard. It is even now under rice imported from Burma. We used to contemplation. Of course, then there was get rice from Andhra and Madras. The something behind that act. It was an Central Government have no national election speech, and Mr. A. M. Thomas policy in regard to the food problem and the congress candidate got through. What they have utterly failed. They fear to happened this time? Mr. A. M Thomas adopt a national policy so far as food is stood and he was thoroughly defeated. concerned and that is why this difficulty. That is what happened. What I say is this. Before independence we had enough rice As far as the food policy is concerned, I and I could purchase one quintal of rice have already submitted that the Central for Rs. 7/- at that time. After indepen- Government has utterly failed. I dence, what is our experience? During the understand that lakhs and lakhs of acres First Plan period we could get 12 oz. per of fertile, cultivable land are lying waste. day. During the Second Plan period we You must give them to agriculturists and got only 9 oz. per day. During the Third they will cultivate them. If water supply Plan period sometimes we got 6 oz. and is necessary, certainly you must do it. But sometimes 4 oz. per day. Now, we are in you have failed in everything; the Gov- the Fourth Plan period. We may get 3 oz. ernment have failed in everything. The per day arid that too at the end of the other day the hon. Member, Mr. Akbar week. That is the experience. That is the Ali Khan, made this request to the progress made by plans. This is what has Finance Minister: "You please give us been achieved by the Food and Rs. 12 crores as loan; we will complete Agriculture Ministry. This is not what the Nagarjunasagar project and we will was expected. Just before the first general supply the whole of India with rice." If elections the then Food Minister, Mr. that is true, and I feel Kidwai, came to 663 Approbation (No. 2) [ 20 JULY 1967 1 Bill. 1967 664 it is true, why this amount of Rs. 12 crores ... ple of Kerala wanted to become a part of India, and so he was sent away. All those SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: The persons who supported him for this Government of India also agreed that if we independent Travancore move ment are the complete it, we will be in a position to supply present leaders of the Congress. My friend rice to the whole of India. there on the Congress Bench can go and make enquiries about that. In fact we wanted SHRI KESAVAN (THAZHAVA): First of national unity, we wanted to become the all it has to be completed. For that purpose citizens of India, because India is a great money is required. All this money is stored country and with a great population and with here and spent for Ashoka Hotel and great resources certainly it may become one of revolving tower when people are starving. the greatest countries, powerful countries, in We do not want Ashoka Hotels in our the world. With that idea we joined. Nobody country. We want rice. Unfortunately, we hap- fought against us and captured us. We have •pen to be cultured people and educated people come with our own will and we wish to and the density of our population is very high, continue. and there is not an inch of land uncultivated so far as Kerala is concerned. That is We are ready to pay the price for imported the position there. So I request his Gov- rice. Lakhs of acres of land are lying fallow. ernment to help the Kerala Government. Make them cultivable and give those lands to Please do not discriminate against it; do the agriculturists so that they may cultivate not take a step motherly attitude towards them and produce more foodgrains. Kerala. We also fought for our independence. The Diwan at that time was I have to say so many things with regard to Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Iyer. His military other things: The Ministry has failed with and his police fired at so many persons regard to education. There is no national and so many persons died, and several houses education policy. It is highly necessary. So were burnt. Although he had done all these far as Kerala is concerned, education has be- things, he has done so many good things to that come an industry. There are a number of State, the Travancore State. He has established schools and colleges in the private sector so many factories in the public sector. He was owned by managers. Even for admission in not a socialist. He was an enemy of the primary schools they take bribes. For socialists. Still several factories in the public appointment of teachers in schools they sector were established in the Travancore take Rs. 3000 or Rs. 4000. For admission State. He took up the Pallivasal scheme and in colleges they take bribe. For appoint- completed it. Such a scheme cannot be ment in colleges they take Rs. 5000 or Rs. dreamt of at present. Because of that scheme 10,000. They need not pay income-tax also. we get light now, and several factories So, this is one of the most profitable came into existence in the private sector businesses. Why can not you nationalise all also. Medical college, engineering college, these schools? The Central Government aerodrome, FACT at Alwaye, all these must certainly accept the policy of nationalis- things were established by him. He has done ing all private schools and colleges. Every so many things. At the time when he year their number is increasing. Why cannot declared independence for Travancore he the Centre, as my hon. friend, Mr. Dharia, was sent away from Travancore with a small said, nationalise the banks? Why cannot reward. He wanted an independent the Centre nationalise the estates owned by Travancore State as Diwan of Travancore, not foreigners? Why cannot the Centre in his individual capacity. But the peo- nationalise the oilfields of the foreigners? We know that during the last session we heard much about the 665 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 666 [Shri Kesavan (Thazhava)] Hazari made from time to time regarding the Report and Birlas. Why cannot the working of the Council. I have seen also Centre nationalise the heavy industries at the resolution that was moved by Dr. least of Birlas and Tatas and others, and Katju last year on the floor of the House relieve the people of India from the demanding that a Committee should be heavy taxes? appointed to probe into the working of it, and he made also certain allegations THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION against the C.S.I.R. I agree that the (DR. TRIGUNA SEN): While discussing allegations made by Dr. Katju were the Appropriation Bill several Members serious matters and everything possible made certain references to the working of should be done urgently to mak^e the the Ministry of Education. I want to Council and its National Laboratories make certain observations. function on proper lines. But I should appeal to Mr. Bhargava, Dr. Katju and First, I am very happy that the others not to press for a Committee to en- Members take so much interest in the quire into the lapses that happened during cause of education and I am grateful to the last few years because such enquiry them for the valuable suggestions they will not take us any further. It will do us have made. We will try our best ',o no good. I can assure the Members that implement them. While discussing, Mr. what has been mentioned by Dr. Katju Bhargava made a reference to the name will not happen any more at least so long of the Ministry. He said: "I am sorry to as I am here. I will see to it. I want to look remark that since the words 'Scientific forward and see how matters can be Research' were taken away from the improved. I have been taking a personal name of the Ministry science has been interest in the working of the Council and suffering by default". It is true that the I am giving very serious thought to its present name of my Ministry is "Ministry working. I am sorry that during the last of Education", and the words "Scientific four months, I was busy in drafting a Research" are not included in it. But I can national policy and I could not give much assure the hon. Member and the House time to the working of the CSIR. But if that it does not mean that my Ministry my study of the situation requires the does not attach sufficient importance to setting up of a special Committee to look science. In fact our policy is to make into this, I promise that I shall certainly science the very basis of. our education in see that the Committee is duly appointed the country. I have always welcomed and its recommendations submitted to the discussion of matters relating to science Government. in the House and attached the greatest possible importance to the suggestions SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: We leave made by hon. Members for the it to you. improvement of teaching of science and technology in our schools and colleges. DR. TRIGUNA SEN: Give me some SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Who time. I assure you that the lapses that dropped those words? have been mentioned by Dr. Katju will not recur. I assure the House once again DR. TRIGUNA SEN: You know it. I that I am giving my best attention to the am here only for about four months. But whole question and whatever needs to be I do not agree that a mere change in the done will be done as expeditiously as name is going to make any real possible. This requires the cooperation of difference. Members like Dr. Katju and Mr. Bhargava who are interested, and I will Mr. Bhargava referred regarding the discuss with them Irom time to time and working of C.S.I.R. I am fully aware of find out the solution. the criticism thai ^ias been 667 Appropriation (No. 2) j. 26 JULY 19-67 ] Bill. 1967 668 Sir, he mentioned about the Indian DR. TRIGUNA SEN: I do not know School of international Studies. I wish, in the constitutional position. But surely I the first instance, to correct the erroneous will take up this matter with the Minister impression that this particular school does of Education of Madhya Pradesh. not permit Hindi as the medium of dissertation for Ph.D. Degree. Subject to SHRI MULKA GOVINDA REDDY the availability of competent supervisors (Mysore): With the new Minister. and examiners, Hindi or any other langu- age is acceptable to the school authorities. DR. TRIGUNA SEN: Some one will But in the present case the difficulty has be there. arisen essentially from the fact that for all practical purposes, English has been the Mr. Kumaran drew attention to the sole medium of instruction in most of the admission requirements of the Patrice examinations in the universities and in Lumumba University, Moscow. I studied institutions of higher education. Part of the whole thing last night. It is true that the difficulty lies in the fact that so far the eligibility and qualification to that there has been no clear policy of the Gov- University is a pass in higher secondary. ernment in the matter. As the House is But the Ministry took the view that we aware, I am vigorously trying to evolve a should send only boys who have passed policy on the medium of instruction and the B.Sc. examination. examination at the university stage and once it is formulated, I think it would be SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: For the possible for us to take up the matter with first class B.Sc. people, their papers are all the universities and the deans of the not being sent to the Joint Board and they universities in the country. Of course, the are being detained somewhere. I will matter has to be taken up with them divulge it some day. Yes, I tell you. because in the ultimate analysis, a uni- From Calcutta, I know of cases. First versity is fully responsible and auto- class B.Sc. students made their nomous for its academic standards. applications. Their papers have not gone to the Board even for examination. Sir, Mr. Niranjan Singh referred to the Somewhere they have got stuck up. results of the Board of Secondary Why, I do not know. Education of Madhya Pradesh and said that those who failed in English were DR. TRIGUNA SEN: If there are declared unsuccessful by the Board but individual cases . . . were later declared successful by the Education Minister of the State. It is a SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: No indi- State subject. I can only mildly enquire vidual cases, there are a number of cases. into those things. But I believe the Centre should not interfere in the working of a DR. TRIGUNA SEN: I can only look State. into the cases . . . SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: No, no, Sir. On such questions, the Certre should SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I would interfere. Otherwise, there i3 no purpose ask the Education Minister. Will he in having an Education Ministry here. If kindly tell us or make a statement in the somebody fails and a Minister gets him House as to how many applications were passed, that is very very objectionable. received from those who have passed their B.Sc. or higher degree with first SHRI R. S. KHANDEKAR (Madhya class and whether aJl of them have been Pradesh): The Minister of that State is forwarded to the Committee of the Soviet implementing so many schemes. Why representatives and the Indian cannot he do it? representatives who make the selection and if some 669 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 19G7 670 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta ] you are not utilising it for the purpose for people have not been selected, the reason which the Soviet people have spent a lot of for the same. money to set up a whole university for the underdeveloped countries. Witch-hunt is DR. TRIGUNA SEN: The figures are not going on in this matter even in the Ministry of with me. If the hon. Member wants them, Education, whoever is in charge. But we shall surely I will supply the information that he return to the subject some day in a proper asks for. But I want, Sir, to mention that we way. should have a policy whether we should send our boys abroad for under-graduate studies or DR. TRIGUNA SEN: It is better, when he not. I have myself said once . . . returns to the subject, that I deal with it. I will collect all information about it. But I SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Mr. Vice- maintain, personally if it is left to me, I will Chairman, I was in Moscow in 1960 when the discourage any student to go abroad for Patrice Lumumba University was opened and under-graduate studies. I agree that we should Comrade Dange was present there also. We send our boys for specialised education so were also invited. Mr. Khrushchev opened it. that on their return . . . There the statement was made that they were opening that University with a view to helping SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: It does not the students of the poorer classes in the mean any . . . underdeveloped countries, who were not in a position to go to the United States of America, DR. TRIGUNA SEN: Personally . . . West Germany, England and other places, that they would bear all the expenses. I nave been SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Personally you to that University twice or thrice at the will not do it. Here it does not mean any invitation of the authorities when I was in foreign exchange. When Mr. Nehru took it up Moscow. I met Indians there. Now, I find here it was not at all a question of specialised that the Indian Government does not even study. There foreign exchange is involved. fully utilise the quota. Even earlier they were Here you do not spend anything, even a paisa. not utilising. Ceylon has the quota. Even They provide the ticket, you go there and they Pakistan has it. But Indian Government is not get you the return ticket. They look after the doing it. Now perhaps they are sending more students. Not a single pie . . . students. All kinds of discriminations have started in making the selection. Well, I do not DR. TRIGUNA SEN: I have not said know. My fear is this that the Government go specifically about this Patrice Lumumba into extraneous considerations. Well, tell us if University; I said in general terms whether it some people are connected with the leftist or is at the Patrice Lumumba University or any opposition moi-ement and if they are not other place. allowed to go, so that the Soviet Union should know this kind of thing. Well, Mr. Vice- Shrimati Ammanna Raja referred to the Chairman, he should know that a person who neglect of women's education. She asked for is connected with the left Communists cannot free distribution of books and .clothings go to America even if he has money. Poorer particularly for the poorer girls. It is a good people have no money, they cannot even have suggestion. If resources permit, surely we will the means to study. They get offers of do that. But I can assure Shrimati Ammanna scholarships, everything free. Now, Raja that I am trying from this year, if possible, to at least establish book banks in the schools so that students, girls and boys, of poorer 671 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 672 classes can go there and read books of their SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Ever, they are own before we are able to supply them free not sent. books. Thank you, Sir. SHRI K. SUNDARAM (Madras): Sir, I SHRI M. C. SHAH (Gujarat): Mr. Vice- rise to oppose this Bill, the Appropriation Chairman, may I ask for some clarification (No. 2) Bill, 1967 . . . from the Education Minister? I would like to know whether the Education Ministry is able SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I think you to absorb scientists and technologists who are should sometime accommodate people highly specialised. I know that so many of because sometimes we have to go. When we them have not been absorbed yet. say "Accommodate us" it is not done. I do not mind. But some of us will be leaving. We DR. TRIGUNA SEN: I do not nave have got some other meetings and so on. We fig.ures today. But if he asks a question I can come here and make this request. I have no collect them and supply them to him. Or if he objection to anybody being accommodated. writes to me I can write to him. But we rarely make such a request. We do not SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: May I know, want this accommodation for the sake of plea- Sir, through you, when he is supplying a sure. But sometimes we have other meetings report of the Committee of 30 Members of called by the Government. And we ask you to do it. It is not done. We find that for Ministers Parliament on the Education Commission. everything is done. DR. TRIGUNA SEN: It has been supplied. SHRI K. SUNDARAM: Sir, I rise to SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: The Minister oppose this Bill. The amounts mentioned here mentioned the point which I made. He said are supposed to be spent during the year that he does not agree that for post-graduate 1967-68. But, unfortunately, these amounts studies the students should go abroad. What are not spent throughout the year. For the about this particular University which I major part of the year the amount is not spent. mentioned? The unspent amount is spent towards the end of the year. This causes a great1 deal of SHRI A. D. MANI: He is prepared to confusion. It causes an artificial demand for consider when the matter is put before him. goods and thereby the prices are also artifi- cially pushed up towards the end of March. SHRI P. K. KUMARAN: He did not say This is preceded by the Budget in February. that. This University wants only Higher Before the Budget there is a lull and then Secondary qualification for admission. Why there is uncertainty. But after the Budget there not we also send our students with that is confusion. This kind of artificially created qualification? That is my point because B. Sc. financial and economic conditions interrupt people going there waste three years before the normal flow of manufacture and they start picking up something, new. That production and distribution of goods. The was the point which I raised. damage caused by these things is not even assessed. Only in today's Economic Times it is DR. TRIGUNA SEN: He raised that said that the industrial production has fallen question yesterday and I looked into the by 7 per cent, during the last four months and matter. I find that the decision of my in the last month it has dropped by 5.3 per predecessors was that only those boys who cent., that is, for the month of April. If we have passed their B. Sc. should be selected. take May and June into account, I am quite sure the drop in produc- 673 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 674 [Shri K. Sundaram.] tion must be more than 10 per cent. I I commended the decontrol of this com-j illustrate this only to show how fast the modity, both price control as well as industrial production is deteriorating. No distribution. Still the Government is no doubt we are in the midst of a galloping giving any reply; they are considering. recession. They have not given it their mind. When During this time the industries in the that is the case, credit curbs and high rate private sector are working under a of interest prevent the industry from tremendous pressure due to the high rate stocking sufficient raw materials or of wages, unlimited layoffs, high rate of finished goods in their premises. The industries which are not able to work under interest combined with credit curbs. this pressure naturally will fall sick. And Sir, getting raw material in time at the no wonder we have got a number of site for the manufacture and production of industries that are falling sick month after goods is the problem today. In spite of month. These pressures push up the price the gheraos, strikes and go-slows they every month. From the price index do produce. And, finally, if they do you can see that month after month the not get the raw materials in time they prices are increasing. While this is the suffer. Even today raw materials are case with the private sector, look at the governed by quotas, permits and public sector. What are they doing? They licences. There are pre-payments, are taking it very easy. We have seen movement restrictions, guarantees for all from the reports Of the Govind these raw materials in one form or Menon Committee how a large inventory is another. Though there are plenty of raw maintained by these public sector un- materials today, getting them to the place dertakings. Some of them are only of requirement in time is the problem. working at 50 per cent, efficiency. Take, for instance, the pig iron, coke, coal, Unlimited credit has been extended to these ingots, jute, cotton, steel, limestone, industries. And very recently we have gypsum, chemicals, basic metals. All seen the unimaginable losses in steel these raw materials are facing the same industries. And yet we are asked to vote problem today. The industries are being for these expenses and losses by this blackmailed by everybody who has to do particular Bill. Then I would like to know anything with the supply of such raw from the Minister the position about the materials. Since the industries have to get Tuticorin deep sea harbour project. their raw materials in time they are in a During the past five years, I was informed, hurry. When they do not geH it in time a sum of Rs. 5 crores has been spent they suffer. Under these already. Out of which fund has this circumstances they are being exploited. money been spent? If a part of that project This gives room for much corruption. I has already been constructed, what was can give one instance of cotton. the estimated amount? Was there a sanction for the construction of that deep Mr. Dharia mentioned that the price of sea harbour? If that is the case, why cotton is always kept low. But un- should there be any doubt now whether fortunately everybody concerned with the project will be coming or not. There cotton down below up to the grower— has been no clear answer. The Finance the merchants, the Cotton Mills Fede- Minister said that such a project has ration, the Cotton Development Council, never been taken up by the Cabinet or con- the cotton Advisory Board—had sidered by the Cabinet. But the former recommended last year for complete Finance Ministers had been allotting decontrol of this commodity. Yet the money on an ad hoc basis. Where does it Government refused to hear. Even in the come from? Is it not necessary that they current year all these bodies for a second should get the time have unanimously re- 675 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 20 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 196r 676. sanction of this House for such adjust- Now during the last Plan period, the ments or payments? spinning capacity of this country has been doubled but without an adequate Sir, year after year, new taxes are expansion of the weaving capacity. With being levied on new commodities and all such a large spinning capacity and very the proceeds are added on to the limited weaving capacity, it is no wonder Consolidated Fund. I wonder if the Finance Department takes any trouble to that a number of textile mills become sick find out the results of such taxation. I do and naturally they remain closed for not think even their research section does months together. An important fact to be it. For example, in 1957, there was a carefully considered region-wise now is large excise levy on dho-ties and it was the effect of this recent taxation or rather followed by a special Bill passed by the increased taxation on powerlooms, on Parliament fixing quotas for the the sized beams which are working on manufacture of dhoties by each mill. powerlooms. The installation of Now after ten years, what has happened? powerlooms in Maharashtra and the Those mills which are holding their predominantly spinning industry of the quotas are producing just one-third of Madras State will be affected adversely their quota. The Finance Minister has lost whereas the composite mills in Gujarat all that revenue. What has happened to will stand to benefit a great deal. Now I that? How is the demand met today? wonder if the Finance Ministry had got What are the steps the Finance Minister all the relevant facts before they levied has taken or the Textile Commissioner the tax on sized beams. The hon. friend has taken to see that full production is just now said that there had been a restored? Nothing has been done. But Committee which went into this matter that supply has been maintained by the and they had submitted a report and on powerlooms which have sprung up in the the strength of that report, the Finance meantime. And for the crime of having Minister was pleased to reduce the tax by produced cheaper cloth, that cloth is Rupee one per kilogram, I would say that being taxed at the same rate as that tif the the Finance Minister has grossly overesti- mills. This is the reward that the mated the capacity of that particular powerlooms are getting. Now this kind of industry to bear these taxes. The Finance hide-and-seek ;/,ame should go. Ministry, sitting here in Delhi, is not Wherever any industry makes profit, expected to know everything about every immediately it is pounced on and taxed industry in the country. Without knowing and the money is taken away. How are we it, how are they going to levy new taxes, I going to develop our country, 1 wonder. wonder. Naturally they commit such Ten years ago when they produced dho- mistakes and then try to adjust them. ties, it was taxed. That was stopped. Now, coming to synthetic fibres, I have Somebody else produced dhoties. Now to mention one point. In the Budget that is being taxed. Now that will also Speech, the Finance Minister said and stop. Somebody else will again produce hoped that the new levy will not be it. Like that, the hide-and-seek game is passed on to the consumer. In the case of going on continuously. staple fibre, the manufacturer has passed It has been the policy of the Gov- on these new levies to the consumer. This ernment to encourage the growth of has been brought to the attention of the decentralised sector in the textile in- Finance Minister, but since it is not a law dustry. Has there been a change in this but only his statement, he cannot do policy to withdraw the concession? I do anything. It is a fact that it is still being not think it was ever announced on the continued. Now all these new taxes go floor of this House that they have into this fund. What happened to the changed that policy. profits of the S.T.C.? 677 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, l967 678 [Shri K. Sundaram.] They had been importing quite a day. If that is agreed to, that would be more number of things; they had been sel convenient. If in the first week itself we start ling and making huge profits as per sitting an extra hour, it looks ridiculous. the statement of the hon. friend there. Where does it go? Does it go into SHRI MULKA GOVINDA REDDY: This the Consolidated Fund at all? Then morning we could not transact any business there are exports. The S.T.C. has before lunch hour because we had to take up been exporting cloth at a much two Calling Attention Notices and so much so cheaper rate. They are losing any we have lost the time that was allotted for thing from 12 to 20 per cent in the discussing this Bill. On Friday we do not want local market. Do they pay for those to forego the non-official business. So it is a losses out of the profits they make? good suggestion made by Mr. Lokanath They have also contracted for the ex Misra that we can sit on Saturday so that port of art silk goods. The Art Silk many Members wanting to participate can be Association has refused to sell any cloth accommodated. to S.T.C. They have gone on strike. SHRI A. D. MANI; Every morning we find Now where will they find money to we are not able to commence our business of make up this loss? If they go on the day till one after the disposal of the taxing like this, the prices are bound Calling Attention Motions. I suggest, in order to go up. Knowing this fully well, to accommodate the speakers, if the Members the Finance Minister has pushed up have no objection, we sit through the lunch the prices. He then come forward s hour and we sit an extra day. We carry on till with the proposal that there must be 5.30 and then the Minister can wind up th a price freeze. Naturally, if there is e debate at 4 on Saturday afternoon so that we a price freeze, there must have ample time for accommodating all the 5 P.M. be a wage freeze also, at Members. least for a temporary period of 2 years. If the price and the wages are frozen SHRI M. N. KAUL (Nominated): I suggest naturally and automatically the profits will that we may sit to-day till six. The other also be frozen. If the profits are not frozen, if points we may consider tomorrow when we there are any more profits, I am prepared to have a full House and we can have ample vote for an interim Budget as well as time . . . Supplementary grants as the Minister wants. (Interruptions) THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI RAM SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: I support Mr. NIWAS MIRDHA): There are a large Kaul's suggestion. number of Members who would like to take part in this debate and as some would like to SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA (Uttar Pradesh); be adjusted today, if the House has no We are running on a very tight schedule. objection we could agree to sit till 6 P.M. What I would suggest is, if the House agrees to sit on Saturday, we might interchange the ] SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Till 5.30. ion-official business and this business and we might continue this Bill on Friday and take SHRI LOKANATH MISRA: We may the non-official business on Saturday. meet tomorrow and then continue this discussion on this Appropriation on Saturday SHRI NIREN GHOSH (West Bengal) : also. That would accommodate probably The non-official business fixed for Friday, if almost the entire list. We could sit for an the schedule is accepted, can be taken up on additional day and I hope the Finance Saturday. Minister will have no objection if we sit on Satur- 679 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 680 SHRI K. C. PANT: My difficulty is that SHRI K. C. PANT: Then I can reply on there is a dead-line for this Appropriation Bill Friday so that tomorrow the whole time could and personally we have planned on be devoted for the discussion. completing the debate tomorrow so that we could refer the Bill for the President's Assent. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Our non- It must be got by a certain date. I have just official day is not going to be given up on heard the suggestions and I would certainly Saturday. examine whether we could extend the debate till Friday. I will find that out but I would Mr. Vice-Chairman, first of all, in think that extending it to Saturday would be discussing this Appropriation Bill we must perhaps cutting it too thin. If we have to have a look at the Government which we have extend it to Friday I hope the suggestion of after the four general elections in the country Mr. Bhargava would be considered and I, on because it is important what kind of my part, would be in a position to indicate Government we have specifically after the tomorrow morning definitely whether we can elections, how it is functioning and dis- extend it till Friday. We shall certainly do so charging its responsibilities even in regard to unless this dead-line prevents us. very routine matters. It will be agreed on all hands that we are passing through an uncertain SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: If on Friday political situation and also we are facing you are going to discuss this, on Saturday the clearly a recession economically although Mr non-official thing will come. Maybe we Morarji Desai would try to underplay the should come on Saturday and some of us may situation by calling it slump and not recession. not like to speak to-day in that case. I shall presently discuss that aspect of the mat- ter but before I deal with the economic THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI RAM propositions, I would touch on some salient NIWAS MIRDHA): One of .the suggestions features of our political and administrative before us is that we should sit on Saturday problems. Now it is clear that we have the Congress Government with a reduced and get one more day for this debate and the non-official business can be passed on to majority but what should be noted here is that Saturday but I think Saturday sitting is a very unlike in the past, the present Central extraordinary thing and so many Ministers Congress Government has become both a and Members also have their programmes set constitutional and a political anachronism. It and as far as possible we should have our pro- has become a constitutional anachronism for grammes prearranged in a way that they will the simple reason that as many as 8 States, not have to be changed at the last moment. If maybe it will be the 9th day after tomorrow, the House agrees I would suggest that we sit are governed by parties other than the party till 6 today and see how the business proceeds which is in power at the Centre and these States, under the non-Congress Governments, tomorrow and if even then the feeling persists r that more time is needed, we could have the as you know, even today accounts f° 30 change as suggested which means on Friday crores of population out of 50 crores we can have this discussion and the non- according to the latest population figures. official business can go on to Saturday but for Naturally it is a very serious development to-day I do not think we should take the because here is a Government in the Centre decision right now and in this manner. So I which is rejected under the Constitution even suggest that we proceed till six and reconsider in constitutional terms at least in 8 States in the whole thing tomorrow Mr. Gupta. our country. Therefore I say that on the face of it it is a constitutional anachronism. It is also a political 681 Appropriation KNo. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 682 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] anachronism Congress Party to be in power. Previously, a because I say the mandate of the elections has majority of the electorate did not like the clearly demonstrated that the policies pursued Congress Government to be in power and all by the Governments that came as a result of this was a hint of the Congress Government's the 3 previous elections have caused very fall, and today, not only the majority of the great resentment in the country, so much so, electorate, but eight State Governments of the that even the English papers have been noting country, may be nine the day after tomorrow, that it was a resentment vote. These policies would be happy if the Congress Government have been rejected politically and otherwise is ousted from power. This is the new element by the overwhelming majority of our people in the entire situation. Therefore, you rule and yet what we find is, for partisan, political here on the basis of no mandate from the and for purely class reasons—when I say people and on the basis of hardly any mandate class reasons, I have in mind the capitalist from the majority of the States in our country, class whose interest the Government has— even if I include a State like Nagaland, and purely for these reasons they are not only Jammu and Kashmir, etc. Therefore I say it is continuing the old policies, discredited a political anachronism. Now I know that policies but they are modified, step by step, in problems cannot be solved under this a reactionary direction. Only today certain Government. As I said before, more and more fertilizer concessions and other things had hints come to the forefront, in our political been discussed, I am told, in the Congress life today: (1) A vacuum is being created on a Parliamentary Party Executive, and strong national scale in the country's political life; resentment had been expressed against the (2) The need for a national alternative to the Government—fresh surrender to the Ameri- Congress; and (3) The supreme necessity for can and other Western agencies. the replacement of the one-party Congress rule at the Centre by a democratic coalition SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: How do you Government. 1 say this thing because one- know? party rule at the Centre is out of date. Life has rejected it. Those days are over. That phase is SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: If that happens over. And now, the sooner we g_et to that even in the Congress Parliamentary Party, state—that historically determined state has you can well imagine how the people must be come—the sooner we get to a non-Congress feeling when the Government behaves in this democratic coalition Government, the better disgraceful manner. Now therefore, I do not for the country. Otherwise, the process is expect either political stability tir economic going to be extremely painful. Economic recovery so long as the Congress Party is in problems will not have been solved at all but, power. Political stability can never come for on the contrary, would aggravate. Tlie the simple reason that an overwhelming political situation will become more and more majority of the people do no more accept the fluid and acquire greater elements of Congress rule and have rejected it at the State uncertainty and instability. level. SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Question. SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: By crossing the floor, you mean. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Therefore, I would like to make this point very clearly that SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Yes, try to Indian parliamentary democracy has passed understand my point. I say it again; I the phase where, at the Centre, we are recon- emphasise the fact that at least in eight States the State Governments are such as would not like the 683 Appropriation {No. 2.) [ 26 JULY 1967 J Bill, 1967 684 ciled to a one-party Government, and a personalities like that? How can he new phase has opened where the order of discuss the Prime Minister and her the day is a non-Congress coalition leadership and all that? Government, and naturally we stand for SHRl MULKA GOVINDA REDDY: a democratic -.•oalition Government -at She is the Prime Minister today. the Centre. {Interruptions). SHRl AKBAR ALI KHAN: Where SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: We are there is a majority, even tnen tnere should be coalition. not concerned with the Congress Patty. SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: This is SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: That you not right, Mr. Bhupesh Gupta. You are will not understand. And that Gov- not establishing a good precedent. ernment, naturally, will take the place of SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Now the Congress. The Congress Government Prime Minister, we are concerned with. has got to be replaced. A rejected party Mr. Akbar Ali Khan will always say cannot be thought of as a partner in the such things. Of course I respect him very coalition Government at all. Therefore, much. Therefore, it is nothing of the the Congress Party's place as a kind, number one. Government has to be taken by a democratic coalition constituted by other Now people are calling it all names—I parties. Unless that is done, there is no do not go into them. Ministers have solution. become the chieftains in their departments. Now Ministers are not just SHRI K C. PANT: Who will replace integrated elements in a collective team the Congress? because of the lack of leadership, collective and1 individual. These SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; Now Ministers have become chieftains, and coming to the leadership, let us see what they are running their little empires, shall it is. Have we got really a Government? we say, under the para-mountcy of the 1 wonder sometimes. We have got a Council of Ministers or, if you like, tiling called a Council of Ministers. We under the paramountcy of the Prime have got a Prime Minister, Now we have Minister—all national things, all got an added decoration, a Deputy Prime fictitious things. Now technically it is all Minister also. But that does not make a right, but really, in substance, there is Government if it does not make leader- nothing, which you can call the collective ship. Leadership and Government at the responsibility, the collective team and Ministerial level are something which we collective body, the Council of Ministers must judge by proper attributes, whether as envisage r! under the Constitution. they possess the functional competence, The r ;-suit in such an administrative a^d the qualities of leadership, and the political confusion is that Seen have calibre to style themselves and call become now the bosses, the real bosses, themselves a Government of a country which they always were before like India. On all these counts the present independence, because this Government Government is a colossal failure. suffers from an inferiority complex as far as the I.C.S. people are concerned. When Take the case of the leader of the I m?et these Congress leaders, 1 find Government. She provides no leadership somehow or other that they suffer from whatsoever. Neither she provides it, nor an inferiority complex as far as the I.C.S. others extend to her the leadership. Both people are concerned. Now I do not ways it is negative. Well, you see this know why they should. Pandit Nehru was thing; I need not say this thing. not feeling that way; although he was SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: On a also a victim of that thing, he did not at point of order, Sir. Can we discuss least feel it intellectually. But here we find that our Ministers, mostly 918—RS—8 685 Appropriation (No. 1) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1061 686 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] illiterate for the struggle is taking shape after the Elec- tasks they have got— they may he tion, with new forms and in a new way, literate otherwise, and they are—for the and that, of course, creates confusion, responsibilities they have got, lean on or and leads to certain very bad look to the I.C.S. and other officers to developments in day-to-day adminis- prop them up. And they are taking full tration. Here I will say one thing. We had advantage of it. I need not name them, one Mr. Kailash Chandra as Secretary to but some I.C.S. officers are more the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs, powerful than the Ministers, and the who for four months was drawing salary Ministers, in order to shine with their without attending to any business at all, assistance in Parliament and elsewhere, because the present Minister of have to rely on the I.C.S. people and the Parliamentary Affairs did not like him. I senior I.A.S. people. And some of them am told, I understand that he was asked to know how to exploit the weakness of issue a whip on the Presidential election, these Ministers. The result is: We have to the Congress members and it seems got a kind of I.C.S. leadership given to us that this gentleman, Mr. Kailash Chandra under the signboard of "Council of said that it was a party matter and as Ministers". We have got some people Secretary to the Minister of here, who dress themselves up as Parliamentary Affairs he was not Ministers, but actually they are fulfilling expected to issue such whips. Somehow the role of doing what the I.C.S. people or the other Dr. Ram Subhag Singh took or the I.A.S. people ask them to do. I do a dislike for him and clashes developed not know how things are going to between him and the Minister of change. Well, it is for the Congress Party Parliamentary Affairs because the latter, to tidy up their affairs, but it is for we are told, was asking him to do things Parliament also to take note of the fact which should be done by the Congress that the collective responsibility to Parliamentary Party or its officials and not by Mr. Kailash Chandra who is the parliament, the responsibility of the Secretary in that Department. Council of Ministers, as we understand it, is being negated in this manner by SHRI K. C. PANT: Sir, on a point of internal erosion, and subverted at the order. Can the hon. Member refer to an Secretariat level. But the Ministers are officer by name? becoming, well, even at the policy- making level, secondary creatures, and SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Why not? the powerful 'ifficials, some of them, There is no point of order. excel them in both the powers, in policy- SHRI K. C. PANT: Sir, I want a making and in administration. That does ruling 'on my point of order. not bid well for our parliamentary system or for our administration. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; There is no question of any ruling. There is no Then, Mr. Vice-Chairman, side by side point of order. there is going on a new power struggle SHRI K. C. PANT: I am requesting, within the ruling party. Among those for a ruling, from the Chair. I have a who form the Council of Ministers, right to ask for it. power equations are changing—I need not go into them. Previously it was SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I know Deputy Prime Minister versus Prime you have. All right. Let us decide that Minister; now we are told it is Home point. I am contesting it. Let us consider Minister versus Prime Minister—the it. I shall defer my speech till this is Deputy Prime Minister is out of the run. decided. I say this is a frivolous and We are not interested in it, but it is a irresponsible point. You have asked for a demoralising thing from the ruling. I am contesting it. I say this is a administrative point of view. Every frivolous officer knows it, that the power 687 Appropriation (No. 2) [26 JULY 1967 ] Bill. iy?7 688 and irresponsible point. The Minister of way, and here is an exhibition of it I had State ought to know his business better. the privilege and the honour of We discussed Mr. H. M. Patel. Was he functioning in this House when his father present in the House? Did we not discuss Shri Govind Ballabh Pant was the Leader him by name? Did we not discuss Mr. of the House and never did he tell me any Bhoothalingam? Was he present in the such thing. But now the son is here in House? Did we not discuss Dr. Teja of bad company perhaps. What can be Jayanti Shipping Company? We have done? I wish Shri Govind Ballabh Pant discussed these and other officers. We had lived to teach his son some have of course, discussed Ministers. This parliamentary sense before he departed is the ruling given. There are the past from us, leaving his son to take his place. proceedings. This is the ruling given by I would ask the youngman to learn a bit Dr. Radhakrishnan and if you want to of parliamentary sense. show disrespect to Dr. Radhakrishnan you can alter that ruling. I spoke about SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: Sir, is it M. O. Mathai and as a result of it he right to claim seniority on the basis of went and the Prime Minister came and friendship with the father of the Minister repiied and an enquiry was held and here and exercise authority over the son? the Minister of State now tells us there is a point of order. SHRi BHUPESH GUPTA: I have personal affection for him, with all his connections with the Birlas. I have lot of SHRl AKBAR ALI KHAN: You personal affection for him because I liked asked for permission to refer personally Shri Govind Ballabh Pant at the personal to M. O. Mathai—I remember it and you level. He has been good to me can refer to the records— and Dr. personally. Personally he has never been Radhakrishnan discouraged you from rude or harsh to me. I am criticising the taking names. I remember that. Government. I remember Sir Stafford Cripps once said in England about a SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Well, the Conservative Member that every time he past proceedings are there. I did men- opened his mouth 10,000 votes were lost. lion M.O. Mathai's name and not only his I do not think my friend here will lose name, but I gave his bank accounts clay votes now; in any case there is hardly by day and his insurance accounts and any vote to be lost. Mr. Vice-Chairman, i his insurance policy numbers and so on. am sorry a lot of time has been lost by And ycu say I shall not mention names? these interruptions. To come back to my And then Shri Jawaharlal Nehru went to point, what I say is that this struggle for Dr. Radhakrishnan and had a compro- power is demoralising. It brings about a mise, if you like it that way. So don't tell collapse in your administrative ability. me this kind of a thing. Anyway, this is Think about it and rectify it even within the position now. Therefore, Mr. Vice- the existing framework, as far as Chairman, I do not think you will alter possible. I do not mention about the the rulings that we have so far got here. Secretariat and other things. You see Christian Keeler was discussed and these now there is Dr. Vikram Sarabhai who is people say that I should not name now the Chairman of the Atomic Energy persons? I am surprised. So I say the Commission. Everybody knows and I leadership now is ^o ignorant and the have heard it from the officials of the present Government consists of people Government of India who ought to know, who are utterly nervous, panicky and that he is 200 per cent pro-American. He ignorant and very very touchy and said 200 per cent; not even 100 per cent. sensitive in a very wrong Well this Dr. Vikram Sarabhai 689 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 196V 690 [Shrj Bhupesh Gupta.] you can understand. You can understand how the public will take it. And et we is the Chairman of the Atomic Energy y find that the quotas from the various Commission. Now you see how the D American lobby is getting their strength. State IAS officers who should e brought to the Centre, are not fulfilled properly They are getting more and more influential and your Jhas and Shahs and and they are getting people whom they Singhs and all these people are coming like. They are maintaining direct contact and taking full advantage of the present with the I.G.P. of West Bengal, I under- weakness in leadership and the present stand. This matter I will discuss later. I confusion and mutual conflicts and so do not wish to say very much about it on. This is bad for the country. I am just now. speaking in the larger interests of the country. I am not making a partisan point One political point I want to make. out of it. Please give me a little time. A lot of time was lost on other things. There is this report in the papers here. Shri D. P. I do not want to say much about the Mishra after consultations with the Prime Centre-States relations. That we shall Minister and the Home Minister here had discus^ on ? non-official resolution. But gone to Bhopal and he has made a state- this Government should realise that the ment yesterday and the impression is that Centre-Statc-s relation has got to be re- this statement has directly or indirectly shaped. Well, they are doing things the backing of the Central Government. In which have not been done even by the one statement Mr. Mishra has said that ha British in their days. Never before in our would not have a care-taker government history has an ICS officer, after even if he was invited to do so. He retirement been appointed Governor of wanted to get rid of this malady of Bengal 01 West Bengal. Certain defection and he said that if there is a Provinces like Bombay, Madras and midterm election he would teach them a West Bengal—then it was Bengal at that lesson. Mark the words—teach them a time—were left out 0f the range of retired lesson. Mid-term elections under the ICS officers for becoming Governors. constitution are not envisaged for Now one ICS retired officer is the teaching a lesson to anybody. I can Governor 0f West Bengal and the people understand other people saying it. But of We3t Bengal are agitating against him. when the Chief Minister says it to the Well, i do not lay very much and yet Press that he is thinking of a mid-term everybody knows his connections. election not for the purpose of respecting the Constitution, not for up-holding parliamentary democracy, not for any Then again, see how they behave? Mr. K other reason connected with public K. Roy, the Home Secretary of West administration but for teaching his Bengal was sent away from his post in opponents a lesson then I don't know West Bengal, rightly or wrongly; I do what to say. not want to go into that. But immediately he was pitchforked here as SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: He means Joint Secretary in the Ministry of Home teaching a lesson not to his opponents Affairs. All I can is that, this kind of thing but to those who ran awsy. should not be done. You have given him I promotion when the West SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You may Bengal ' Government was thinking that he discuss it in the party but the Chief was not .good enough for the particular Minister cannot say such a thing. job which he had held at the State ! I^vei, Defections are permissible. If some How wili that Ministry take it, i people have defected it does not mean that such things $hould be .said.. .Sup- 691 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill 1967, 692

pose we say in Bengal some four people here you see Mr. Mishra speaking like this. have run away to the Congress and so we want Where does he get the courage from? For him mid-term elections to teach a lesson to Mr. constitutional proprieties, etiquettes, rules and Atulya Ghosh and company, how would you standards of public behaviour, conventions feel about it? Therefore don't say such and practices 0f parliamentary democracy are things. You may feel very unhappy about it; all immaterial. He must take revenge against obviously you will be unhappy about it. those who have dared to bring him down. But he is the Chief Minister. If say, Mr. Now the Governor will be advised and you Akbar Ali Khan had said it, I would not have can imagine what kind sf mala fide advice he taken objection but it is the Chief Minister would give. Wh .it right would he then have who says that he would advise the Governor after that to say that he has ordered mid-term to hold mid-term -elections; for what; to elections in the interests of the people. He teach the Opposition a lesson, to teach the cannot possibly say that. Now, I am going to people who have left his party a lesson. Bhopol tomorrow morning and I will study That shows the Utter mala fide of this man. the situation on the spot but it is quite clear Even the Constitution is not safe in his that I am going to a place where we have a hands. Mr. Viee-Chairman, you are in the Chief Minister who does not understand the A Chair. I may say something very wrong. B C of parliamentary democracy but who You may forgive me. The people may believes in the Bastar mentality, the same forgive me and they may not read very much mentality with which he raided the Bastar into what I said. But if you say something Palace and shot down people. It was musketry from that .position, it becomes a matter of against some people: now it is musketry public policy. It becomes a serious matter against the practice pnd principles of the and it has to be considered by all sections of Constitution. It is such a man you have got the people. He said that if he requested the there. This is the creation of the Centre. To Governor today to dissolve the Assembly on have stability they want this kind of the basis of his having lost the majority, this intimidation; they want methods of brow- would be based on mere conjecture howsoever beating; they want methods of revenge, correct but if he advised the Governor to revenge against the Opposition and against dissolve' the House in case he lost after a those who dare to leave the Congress Party. I trial of strength, he would be on solid am very very glad that they have not said that grounds, as he would then have the names and they will punish the people of India, the sixty number of those Congress legislators who per cent of the voters, who did not vote for had defected at the time of voting. Now the Congress. this is how he speaks. He wants to have mid-term elections so that he can have, in Now, I come to one or two economic addition tg all the other things he has said, the names of the Congress members who vote points. against him. That is the spirit of revenge, spirit of intimi-dation, a spirit wholly THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI RAM repugnant to the constitutional and NIWAS MIRDHA): You have taken a lot parliamentary concepts. If a British Prime of time. Minister had spoken in this language, there would have been an uproar in the British Press and members belonging to all If you seek indulgence you should give . parties would have demanded that he should indulgence. not occupy the first place, in the. Treasury Benches. But SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I would ask the hon. Minister to consider those 693 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 694 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] has passed a resolution for the abolition points you have asked me to conclude; of the privy purse they are openly stalling I will not take much time. As far as it and negotiating with the Princes in the economic side is concerned) I say order to have a deal so that they may We are in the midst of a recession. It voluntarily reduce their privy purse and is not slump; it is recession, a so that the Congress can assuage the developing recession. Either we face public feeling on this question of the up to this recession and reorganise abolition of the privy purse. Therefore I our economy in order to meet it or say there should be a complete re- we permit ourselves to be completely organisation of our planning and the overwhelmed by the objective laws money for the Plan must come from the of recession. This is the reality today. upper classes, from the monopolists, Therefore I would suggest—not lor the from the former Prin-ces, from the big Government but it is for the natior landlords. It is absurd and astounding for to consider—that recession demands any Minister of the Government to sug- a complete reorganisation of our plan gest that there should be a wage freeze. ning and economy. Dr. D. R. Gadgil There cannot be a wage freeze at all. a Member of this House has been Wages are already far behind the prices. appointed Deputy Chairman of the Prices are always ahead of the wages. On Planning Commission. As an eco this question Mr. Dharia has already said nomist he is good and right-minded. what is needed. What is needed is control Also good views he has got, we know. of prices. Prices must be brought down But what will he dof having al and the difference between the real most buried planning? Whether it earnings and the prices must go. That is it alive, I do not know. I do not what is needed Therefore this is an know if it is in a state if coma wait entirely wrong idea, this talk of Mr. ing for the last breath. That is why Morarji Desai wanting a wage freeze. he has been brought in. Mr. Asoka Wage freeze will not be tolerated by the Mehta has proved not the caretaker people. It is a preposterous and criminal of the Plan, but undertaker of our suggestion. It is inconceivable that such a planning. After the undertaker has suggestion comes from a Government done his job, this person has been which claims to be responsible. As I have brought in order to put a facade. I said, there has to be a reorganisation of say it is not a question of persona our whole economy. Now I will tell you lity at all. It is important which what we have to do; just one or two people are there but the basic ques points. You have to strike against the tion must be gone into. The plan monopolists. You cannot run with the ning Commission has again been hare and hunt with the hound. You cannot shorn of its powers. I am not for pander to the Birlas and also save the excessive powers but the main need nation. You have to strike against the before us today is that we must Birlas, Tatas, Dalmia Jains and the whole overhaul the entire concept of lot of them who with all their resources planning as we have understood it under have a gi'iP over our economy. What is the Congress. We want a Plan but two the way to strike against them? The one questions have to be answered first. For method of striking is immediate whom is the Plan and who shall pay for nationalisation of banking. Mr. Asoka it? These are the two vital questions to be Mehta said that 650 accounts take away answered and the answer is that the Plan two-thirds of the total bank advances of I must be for the downtrodden millions, he country and these 650 accounts for the working people, and as for the paying part of it, the monopolists, the feudalists and the richer classes should pay. The Congress Government is so shameless that even after the AICC 695 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 696 belong to the Birlas and so on. This buying operations, whereas it was cal- money is placed at their disposal and culated that in order to build up a manipulated to boost prices and indulge buffer-stock of six million tons of food- in speculation thereby enriching a grains—four millions rice and two smaller section of the people at the top millions wheat—they would require Rs. and the common man is fleeced to the 450 crores. This is the calculation of the bone. Food Corporation of India. If you allow for their turnover, then it may be Rs. 200 or Rs. 300 crores. As against that they have As it is, agriculture must be thoroughly got only Rs. 2-6 crores. For the current reorganised. Land to the peasant must not year it is Rs. 6 crores. How can you only be a slogan but it must become a procure food-grains? Food has to be reality. If you can just do one thing, if bought. The Food Corporation has to buy you can just ensure, by putting your it not for a song, but by giving money to heads together, by mobilising your the peasant, at incentive prices and remu- energies, your ingenuity and your nerative prices. It is being starved and resources, land to the tiller then this great we create a crisis whereby land of ours can flourish. We have 35 Americans are in a position to dictate to us million acres of land in the country, but on the basis of food as to "R'hat we should many people do not have land at all- As do and should not dc. I say State the second Report of the Agricultural trading is essential. It should be Labour Commission has said, 60 per cent developed. Prices must be held. The of the tillers have no land at all- If thess price-line cannot be held by the economic people get land then the situation will im- rhetorics of Mr. Morarji Desai. Prices prove very much. must be brought under control and it must mean certain effective Then foreign trade should be measures against the monopolists, nationalised; it should not be left in certain reorganisation of our economy and private hands. A moratorium on certain operations in the market, but debts should be declared here and instead we are now going headlong, now. It is a step internationally per- through our decontrol and delicensing, into missible. We shall not be doing anything a situation where free market operations wrong or improper in the eyes of the become the order of the day. At a time, world community or as a member of the after devaluation, when we should take international community. That is very better care of our economy, when we important. Our national debt has risen to should have grip over it, where it is needed Rs. 10.000 crores. We owe to the and where it should be done, the Congress foreigners Rs. 5,000 crores and the Government is unfolding a series of Government owes Rs. 5,000 within the measures leaving the economy in its country. I do not know how you are going totality to free market operations. to handle this. Therefore, in order to meet Devaluation itself was dangerous enough. such a situation we must tap resources Devaluation followed bv free, market from outside. This is important. Take operations is suicidal for a nation like over the oil companies. What is more, ours. Therefore, I say these are the you must take a decision to nationalise measures to be taken as far as the taxes are some profit and revenue yielding concerned. Mr. Morarji Desai's concerns under the control of the prohibition apart, I am glad that these monopolists which will bring money to Ministries are abolishing prohibition. the treasury and enable you to pay off a Congressmen drink most and they call part of the debt and build up your themselves prohibitionists. I had been to resources. You will be surprised to hear various parties. One day Mr. R. K. that the Food Corporation had been given, Nehru, the former Secretary-General in the ever since Its inception, barely Rs. 26 crores for 697 Appropriation (No. 2) [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 698 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] the customs and other taxes have c:ome from External Affairs Ministry, said: "Mr. Bhupesh Calcutta. He is the fiduciary of those taxes. Gupta, you are not drinking, but The Finance Minister should not talk as if he Congressmen are drinking." There I find is a kind of permanently settled landlord and. them. I do not name them. His idea was that it everything belongs to him. Yes, money is tho Communists who drink and control he has got too much. it should be Congressmen are prohibitionists. The +rouble diffused. Now, he should not say: "It is my with Congressmen is ... . money end I shall not give." No. This is a wrong idea of federation. You are the Finance Minister in a federal set-up. You must SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: But you will administer your finances from a federal point agree that we must not encourage abolition of view. From the point of view of federal of prohibition. economics that should be done. Mr. Morarji Desai can run into deficit financing. During SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The trouble the last three Plans deficit financing has with Congressmen is this. Here they are amounted to over Rs. 1750 crores. Whenever he is short of funds he can do two things. He socialists and then at the door they are can resort to printing notes or printed money Congressmen. Outside they are in the- or he can go to the Americans to get money. Swatantra Party and then sometimes in the But what can the State Governments do? Jan Sangh. You do not know this changeable They have not got printing presses to print personality. They are chameleons politically. notes, nor can they directly go to various You do not know. Some are good. I know foreign countries and ask for money. some of them are colourful as we say in Therefore, it is ail the more the responsibility Bengali "Bohurupee". It depends on what of Mr. Morarji Desai not to dictate, but to light falls on them and you see them in understand the problems and difficulties of various colours. This is the position with the various States and try to give them more regard to them. powers. In fact, the Constitution should be amended to give more revenue-raising powers Before I sit down I strike a note of warning. to the States. So long as this is not done^ he Here you have to reshape your economy, should not be given more power. especially ypur relations with the States. Otherwise, it will,come up more and more Finally, one point, I take seiious exception. and you will be pushed to the forefront. There I have given a calling attention notice and I is need for readjustment of economic do not know why it does not come up. It is relations between the Centre and the States. my last point. When the West Bengal They were conceived and formulated at a Government decided to take over the time when you never thought that there might management of the Calcutta Tramway be one type of Government at the Centie and Company, which is a sterling company, the different types of Government in so many British Government sent an aide memoire to States. 'Therefore, you reconsider it and the West Bengal Government over the head refashion it. Mr. Morarji Desai says: "I will of the Central Government. Now, it was not not give money to the States." Who is he to the Tramway Company which made that say so? He is the federal Finance Minister. As representation. They were doing it. But the the Finance Minister he is not to see to.the U.K. Government, through its Deputy High Government at the Centre only in the strict Commissioner, went to the West Bengal sense of the term. He is the fiduciary of the finances of the whole nation to which the State Governments also belong. Two -thirds of 699 Appropriation (No. 2) I 2d JULY 1967 ] Bill, i9t>7 700 Transport Minister to present him an aide the British High Commissioner in memoire in which he asked the West Delhi and ask for an explanation and ask Bengal Government not to do certain him to communicate to the U.K. things. Added to it was the threat that if Government that they had no business in the U.K. Government's note was not this manner to interfere in the internal accepted, foreign investment in West affairs of our country. How we shall Bengal would not come. I do not want to manage our trams, how much fare we go into that aspect of the matter. It was shall charge from them, it is our business an interference in the internal affairs of the and anyhow the company is there to country. A shameless threat was given by deal with it Why the British the British Government. Of course, we Government should have come in? have stood up to it. The trams are being Secondly, we should lodge a strong run by the workers under the management protest and ask the matter to be of the United Front Government. communicated to Mr. Harold Wilson What about the Central Government? that the U.K. Government had no The Central Government should have business under any diplomatic norm or taken note of it. If the U.K. Government etiquette or principle or standard to have had any objection in this matter, it should ignored the Central Government, the have come to the Centre. They should only competent authority in such cases, have made representations to and send an aide memoire, however pre- the Centre, submitted their aide posterous, over the head of the Gov- memoire to the Ministry of External ernment at New Delhi to the State Affairs, instead of going to Writers Government. Now I say that Mr. Jyoti Buildings in Calcutta and submitting it Basu would be perfectly justified, Mr. Ajoy there over the head of the Central Mukerjee would be perfectly justified, Government. They did not feel even in what they would do, to ask the Indian insulted. I ask you one question. High Commissioner in England to Suppose we have some objection. communicate their indignation and Some company in Calcutta has some resentment to Mr. Harold Wilson. I objection against somebody in England hope the Indian Government would not or against the British Government. come in the way if the West Begal State Suppose that company asks the West Government decides to ask the Indian Bengal Government or the High High Commissioner in Lonadn. . . Commissioner for India to go and lodge a protest on behalf of the West Bengal SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (Uttar Government. Now, the High Pradesh): Sir, Mr. Bhupesh Gupta has Commissioner goes not to the British raised a very serious matter, and the Colonial Office or the Commonwealth Government should make a statement Office, but to the Scottish municipality. tomorrow on this issue. If the British How would you like it? Suppose you Government has taken this unusual step, ask your High Commissioner in it is derogation of the authority and London to lodge a protest and the sovereignty of this country, and we take protests directly on behalf of the a very serious view of it. I do not know Government of India, not to the why the Government should not make a Commonwealth Office, not to the Prime statement. Minister of England, not to the Foreign Office, but, shall we say, in a matter SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I think he involving the Scottish municipality to the has made a very good suggestion. Only I Scottish municipality or to the London shall not be here then. County Council. How would it look? I think it is a serious matter. I say this SHRI M. M. DHARIA: I entirely Government should condemn this action. agree with the feeling expressed by my This Government should call friend, Mr. Bhupesh Gupta here

701 Appropriation (No. 2; [ RAJYA SABHA ] Bill, 1967 702

703 Appropriation (No. 2) [ 2 6 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 704 present Union Government that occu-a THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI minute? I made enquiries about Minister RAM NIWAS MIRDHA): That is in may reply tomorrow. case we have it 0n Saturday. SHRI K. C. PANT: Sir, can I have a minute? I made enquiries about the time- SHRl AKBAR ALI KHAN: The table. You know the "Vote on Account" Finance Minister may be called for reply is up to July 31st. On July 31st the at 5 P.M. tomorrow. Presidential assent has to be obtained for this Bill. July 31st is Monday. On THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI Sunday and Saturday the Lok Sabha will RAM NIWAS MIRDHA): Tomorrow not meet. On Friday the message must be we are sitting through the lunch hour and sent from this House to Lok Sabha. Government reply can start at 5.30 and Therefore, if you propose to extend this conclude whenever it is convenient to do debate to Friday, I suggest that it should so. not be extended beyond half of Friday. It should not overflow into the second half I do not think there is time for any of that day. I want your direction. further speech now. Anyway, Mr. M. C. SHRI AKBAR ALI KHAN: The Shah may begin his speech Minitser may reply tomorrow. SHRi M. C. SHAH: Mr. Vice-Chair- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI man, I am thankful to you for giving me RAM NIWAS MIRDHA): We may this opportunity though it is the fag-end forego lunch recess tomorrow by which of the day. we may get more time, and the Minister can reply late in the afternoon. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI RAM NIWAS MIRDHA): You can SHRl MULKA GOVINDA REDDY: continue tomorrow. The House stands If necessary, we are prepared to have adjourned till 11 A.M. tomorrow. non-official day on Saturday. Otherwise. Friday we are not prepared to forego as The House then adjourned at six of the non-official day. clock till eleven of the clock on Thursday, the 27th July, 1967.

GMGIPND—LS II—918 RS—1/6-5-68 —570.