615 Appropriation {No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, !9P7 616 THE APPROPRIATION (NO. 2) of the various Ministries. But what is actually BILL, 1967—contd. happening is that the General Budget being such important subject by itself most of the be created as if I have any sympathy with the Members speak on the economy of the country Federation proposal. That is a preposterous and on the general Budget proposals. proposal and it should be withdrawn. Whatever is said by some Members about the work of the other Ministries becomes so diffused and proliferated that it does not serve any useful purpose and it does not create any THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I may tell impact on the Government on the basis of Members that yesterday a number of which reforms may be made in the various members were absent and I find their names Ministries. So ii is necessary that there should again today. That means they will be keeping be a detailed discussion about the various out some of those who want to speak. Any- Ministries separately in this House so that we way, Mr. Krishan Kant. can make an impact on the Ministries. The Finance Minister while-replying naturally SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): deals with the points raised in respect of the You distribute the time among those who are Budget proposals and whatever has been said present. in respect of other things goes down the drain. I do not think we should be bogged down by SHRI KRISHAN KANT (Haryana) : tradition. In the new circumstances we should Madam Deputy Chairman, I congratulate Shri try to think anew and adapt ourselves to the Morarji Desai for having taken up the demands of the changing situation. After the portfolio of Finance. To take up this portfolio last elections the question of Centre-State is to accept a challenge that the present relations has assumed a new orientation and deteriorating state of the economy presents. we in the Rajya Sabha should have We were in a difficult position even earlier opportunities to discuss it in its various facets. but after devaluation it became worse. Only a That is possible only if we discuss tbo working brave man could have dared to take up the and administration of the various Ministries. chaLenge. The Budget he presented was not a Besides other Ministries, the work of the spectacular one but we appreciate the difficult Home Ministry assumes special importance situation in which he had to do it. I do hope because it has much to do with the Centre- that after presiding over the destiny of the State relations. Ministry of Finance for a year he will be able to present a Budget which will fulfil the aspirations of the country. I also welcome his The Constitution provides for the Deputy, Mr. K. C. Pant, and I hope he will be nomination of certain Members like scientists, a good addition to the Cabinet. educationists, artists and others, to ;the Rajya Sabha and it should be a special responsibility First of all, I would like to say that we in of the Rajya Sabha to discuss the state of Rajya Sabha are not able to fulfil our Science in the country. Science today is obligations fully. We represent the States and changing the face of human society. It has not we should be able to discuss 'ha relationship merely a direct relation to economic growth of the States with tn= Centre and look after of any country but is evolving a new culture- their interests in respect of the various and a new civilization. One of the dominant Ministries. We are given the opportunity to features of our time is that the growth of speak on the Budget and the Appropriation science and technology Bills and at that time we can speak on the functioning 617 Appropriation {No. 2) [ 26 JULY 1967 ] Bill, 1967 618 [Shri Krishan Kant.] has given a concreate The Budget is and can be a powerful shape and meaning to such concepts as instrument to nirect national effort? towards welfare S ate, modernity and progress. This is national goals. There is need for a clear shown by the willingness and ability of a articulation of the national goals in the field of nation to accept social change. It is no doubt scientific research and education, for true that the Government of India has been formation o! a strategy to achieve these goals conscious of the possibilities of science in and then for giving expression to these goals bringing a new order, both physical and and stra'egy in the Budget. Of course the social. But we have not gone deeper to study goals to be achiv-ed in the field of science are whether the present state of Indian society is a part of the economic, social and political receptive to natural discipline of science. We objectives of the country. The present Budget have to be consciously aware to examine in lacks this. this House what sort of social dynamic process is set in motion when a highly Incidentally I would like to /efer to the traditional social structure is brought face to Grants for the Ministry of Education where face with the vigour and dynamism of modern science. It is only by discussion in this House for the Jawaharlal Nehru University and for a University in NEFA only a sum of Rs. 7.5 that we will be able to feel and locate the lakhs has been provided. Last year originally social points of pressure, where a traditional Rs. 100 lakhs was provided which was later society like India would, if stressed, yield revised to Rs. 80 lakhs, I think enough rapidly to the form of change and growth. attention is not being paid to NEFA. The real difficulty here is that we have had no Besides, Members of the Rajya Sabha, intellectual contact with the people of that being a little free from the pressures of the area. If we could have established such constituencies, can give a more unbiased intellectual contact by opening a University attention in respect of the subjects under there in 1947 itself the present situation that discussion and put forward suggestions and we face there today would not have arisen. proposals for implementation. So it is very When the resources are very limted as in our necessary that the Rajya Sabha should not case there vf all the more need for a scientific remain tied down bv the conservative and objective evaluation of competing procedures adopted in the earlier years which demands. A good deal of attention is of course are only continuation of the Older thinking being already paid to this subject. However it about the functions of the Upper House. Rajya may be desirable to obtain not only expert Sabha has got to take it.3 due place which has economic advice but also scientific advice in been denied to it up till now. I hope we will the preparation of Budgets. Scientists should not be bogged down by mere official and also be associated in preparing the Budgets. In para-constitutional thinking. The the context of our times it is not only im- constitutional position of this House nseds to portant to find more resources for su-h be interpreted in the changer! and changing subjects like education and scientific research social conditions of the country. This House but we have also to find new ways of should be taken as akin to the Senate of spending to meet the new demands and America. A new corr.iention should be aspirations. We have also to give serious established giving enlarged powers to the thought to increasing the effectiveness and Rajya Sabha and it should discuss the efficiency of our current spending, and radical functioning of the various Ministries. changes are necessary in this field. 619 Appropriation [RAJYA SABHA] Bill1967 620 The defence budget should incorporate Xapitza, the great Russian scientist, who more considerations of 'cost wrote: "A lady has sent 100 roubles, buy effectiveness'. The possibility of cutting whatever you wish." Bu; there was an down defence expenditure and yet raising additional condition, namely, that you the level of effective military strength must not "buy anything white or anything should not be dismissed lightly. This black, you must not say 'Yes' and you matter needs very careful consideration. I must not say 'No'", etc. So, it turned out know the Ministry is doing that but more that one could not spend the 100 roubles attention needs to be paid to this. without trickery. A Director is in a similar position. He is given money, but is severely limited in spending it. The The present administrative and situation is very much worse in India. financial procedures are often an accretion Before we reach the take-off stage, we and a legacy of the past which was totally should see that the creative worker is not different from the needs and challenges discouraged, but encouraged. that we face today. If we are to get value for the money we spend on education and scientific research, it is most It was somewhat amusing to find that important to ensure that administrative and both in the U.K. and in India the financial procedures are appropriate to and expenditure on research and development in keeping with the spirit and efficient is very nearly equal to the income from functioning of scientific and educa- excise duty on tobacco. In the U.K. tional institutions. Laboratories are not the expenditure on research and offices, nor are they factories.