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1403 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960] (In Private Sec.or) Bill 1404
-12 NOON I want to put a ceiling on salaries in the private sector. Some restrictions have to be REFERENCE TO THE INDIAN there also. I will read briefly the Statement of MARINE INSURANCE BILL, 1959 Objects and Reasons:
SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA (Uttar Pradesh): "There are many private concerns which Sir, at the outset I must say that I do not want pay exorbitantly high salaries to certain to move the motion for reference to Select categories of their managerial personnel. Committee, but I want to make a few These high salaries not only tend to widen remarks. I will take you to the historical the disparities in income and run counter to background of this Bill. In 1956 I came to the Directive Principles of the State policy this House, and immediately afterwards in as embodied in our Constitution but are 1957 I wrote . . . also a corrupting influence and they stand [MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair] in the way of availability of competent persons for public undertakings where the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You cannot salaries are comparatively less. The Bill make any remarks without moving. seeks to remedy this situation with a view to attracting talents to the public sector and SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: I can state the reasons for not moving it. promoting social justice". I think this should be enough, if you-are so MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you minded because anyone should support this withdrawing the Bill? because what I have stated in the Statement of SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: I am not moving Objects and Reasons is from the Directive it and so there is no question of withdrawing Principles of the Constitution which are to be it. displayed but not to be implemented as far as they are concerned. I have taken it from some MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is no of the guiding policies, at least professions, of motion before the House for you to make a the Second and Third Five Year Plans where speech. it is said that there should always be efforts to reduce the income disparities. Here again is a SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The hon. Member should move it, make a speech and big social question. It is not merely a social then withdraw it. question but it is an economic question. It also sets in political implications from the SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA: The Bill has democratic point of view. Therefore, it is at been referred to the Law Commission and so once a question of social justice, of I am not moving it. democracy, of fair-play in our public life. Here I have got certain materials which would MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So the motion is not moved. The next is that of Dr. be of interest to the hon. Members because Seeta Parmanand—The Hindu Minority and these things are not much talked about and we Guardianship (Amendment) Bill, 1960. She do not get a chance. has written a letter saying that she is not First of all, I might point out to the House moving it. that we have got salaried officials and employees in two sectors. One group is in the Government undertakings or in the THE CEILINGS ON SALARY (IN Governments and anotheT is in the private PRIVATE SECTOR) BILL, 1960 sector SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA (West Bengal): Sir, I move: "That the Bill to provide for ceilings on salaries in private employment, be taken into consideration." 1405 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (.Ira Private Sec.or) Bill 1406 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] as employees of sometimes it is very bad. We have the business-houses. Again among the discussed this question when we dis- business-houses there are big and small. I cussed the Pay Commission's Report. am not concerned with the small ones be- cause they are not in a position to pay Let us come to the private sector. I high salaries and they would not be would only remind the House that we are affected by this Bill at all in their opera committed by our Constitution to making ions. Somehow or other they would carry efforts for the reduction ol income on and in fact as a result of the disparities. This has been stated clearly in. monopolistic growth in our economy very the Directive Principles of the many small and Medium business-houses Constitution. It stands to reason therefore and industrial undertakings in the country that we should guide our economic, fiscal are in a bad shape and some of them at and other policies in such a way that least are going out of existence. Such is constantly we bring down the salaries of the position. Therefore, actually the Bill very high salaried officials in the public as refers to a small number of monopolistic well as in the private sector. For the or big business-houses where you have present, I am concerned with the private high-salaried people whose salaries sector. Secondly, this kind of reduction, should be reduced in the public interest this objective of reduction of salaries of and for the sake of social justice. high-salaried people and removal of incom^ disparities was also featured very As far as Government is concerned, let much in the Second Plan and indeed it us deal with the Gove nment so that the was stated as one of the four principal contrast slands out. In reply to a question objectives of the Second Plan. Today we in the Lok Sabha on 5th August, 1957 the are nearly at the end of the Second Plan hen. Home Minister, Shri Pant, gave and I can tell you from what has happened certain figures. He said that there were 17 that the income disparities in the country lakh civil Government employees under have grown and more specially in the pri- the Central Government. Out of them vate sector. It is clear that the Government only 2,341 receive salaries above Rs. policies have failed to retard the process, 1,000. Therefore, you see that in the let alone reduce the income disparities. It Government services very few people get does not speak well of the Government. such high salaries like Rs. 2,000 or so. Therefore, we need measures not only of Very few get, comparatively speaking. this type, but fiscal measures, taxation We want reduction of salaries of the measures, economic policies, etc ould be high-salaried Government officers also adjusted to this main 0' ctive. All these are but this is the position. I am not necessary. Not'- ng has been done. On the concerned in this Bill with the Gov- contrary, the Government by its economic ernment services. I am concerned with policy has helped the growth of income the private sector but the contrast is disparities and the concentration of wealth important. Of course, in the States also, in the hands of a few, and that of course, similar is the position. Perhaps, there will relates to the private sector. And let us be much less people as the States are remember, Sir, that the private sector functioning within a smaller area and the today does not consist merely of some scope is also less. Therefore, there will be proprietors or big persons at the top. They a smaller number of people under the consist cf some very large number of State Governments who receive salaries high-salaried executive officers. It seems of Rs. 1,000 or more. What the total that somehow or other, we are more or would be I cannot say, taking the Centre less developing a kind of economy where and the States together but the number you have a type of oligarchy, a big will not be very high. There also the oligarchy of business men, of executives disparities exist and who are getting economic 1407 Ceilings on Salary [ 9 DEC 1960 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1408 power and who bring about social injustice to Indians, the number is only 218. But when and become inflated all the time. That has it comes to non-Indians— and they are been the result of the Government's policy. In mainly British—the number is 2,017. In the this connection naturally one cannot but recall case of Indians it is only 9-8 per cent, of the the ideas contained in the Karachi Resolution total number of employees in these concerns, of the Congress passed in 1931. Here We are but in the case of the other category, I mean a poor people, a count, y where the non-Indians, the percentage is as much as 90- overwhelming majority of the people do not 2. So this is the position. have even enough to live on. But at the same time, here we have at the top some high SHHI SUDHIR GHOSH (West Bengal): Is executive officials who earn very high the hon. Member trying to make out that salaries, who throw their weight about and more Indians should get these high salaries, who spend exorbit-an.iy the money that they or that salaries m general, should be lowered? get by way of allowances, salaries and so on. Thb is the position we have come to. SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am coming to that. It is not merely a question of social injustice, Let me now start first with the British but some part of it is also international, that concerns in this country and show how they way. I would like salaries to be brought down, pay these high salaries. I got these particulars but here I want to point out that the and kept them, thinking that some day they Government has been so callous in this might-be necessary. I got all this from the matter that they would not even see that the Press Information Bureau of the Government of salaries of many of their own people are raised a India. They circulated certain facts. You little. They would not see to it. The disparity know this matter has been under discussion is there. First of all, there is the disparity in the in this House and in the other House, this various salary groups. Then again there is mat; er of the executives in the foreign concerns the disparity of this type among the Indian and getting exorbitantly high salaries, but the non-Indian employees. Take the whole lot. Government did not do anything about it. If you take the Indian and non-Indian Apart from biing paid these high salaries, employees, you find that 2,235 people were this becomes a means of exploitation of our getting over Rs. 3,000 of which over 2,000 resources by these people also, because what w°re non-Indians at that time. TI12 position is earned in India by way of high salaries is not has worsened now, because from the retained in India. The greater part of it is economic journals and other papers we sent outside, to their own country, to the gather that although the number of Indians in United Kingdom from where most of them the higher sa^ry group may have increased a come. Here I have got the official figures of little, the salaries of the European or rather the Government for 1956 and 1957 the non-Indian employees as th^v a e des- compared. You see here a etafpment showing cribed—here mamly Briti h—have gone up the salary groups of Indian and non-Indians in still higher and their number has also increased. foreign-controlled firms in India. From 1st Here 'he numbers are also given. January, 1956 the compilation has been made. According to the latest information. non- We insisted on a compilation of tffia kind and it Indian getting high salaries would ho about was made and I was supplied this copy of the 7.000 or even more. This is what we find from result of this enquiry. Here it is seen that in the furnished information. Many of them 1956 only about 218 Indians working in the have not suDo'ied the Government wi'h the foreign-controlled concerns operating in our r°oui-ite ''nfnrmation, I because some ignore country were getting salaries over Rs. 3,000. the Government When it comes 767 RS.—2. I409 Ceilings on Salary [ 'RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1410 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] in such matters and care to refer to economic journals that almost the hon. Minister himself told us that some oi every single British concern in India pays them had not furnished the Government with very high salaries of Rs. 5,000 and Rs. 6,000 the information they were asked to supply. to their top-men, and some even Rs. 10,000 See how they get these salaries. Here there are and Rs. 15,000 and so on. This is how they many cases. I will give you one. In the are paid. concern called Jardine Henderson, the Direc- tor is one Mr. J. D. K. Brown. He is employed as the Managing Director in charge of the My special quarrel on this score is this, that firm and he was getting »n increased salary the greater part of this salary paid to them is even earlier of Rs. 53,400 per annum payable not retained in India, but as I said, it is in twelve monthly instalments. That was his shipped out of India. It is permitted to go salary. Then recently, I think in 1959, it was abroad. There is practically no restriction and raised to Rs. 1,20,000 per annum payable in they are in a position to send this money. And similar instalments. I think it was almost apart from this they are given special doubled, I mean the salary of Mr. J. D. K. allowances to go on leave to their own Brown of this particular concern. He is in countries, England especially, quite apart from the fact that they are allowed to send Calcutta. Besides that, you see he was getting money every year or every monih. Therefore, 2-75 per cent, of the net profit of this you see, we lose. The national exchequer company computed in the manner referred to loses and our foreign exchange position in this in section 191 of the Companies Act and so way is adversely affected by these high on, subject to a maximum of Rs. 40,000. salaries, apart from the other aspect of income Therefore, you see this is a very flourishing disparity. Now, every British concern is like and rich concern. They pay him Rs. 1,20,000 this, and the tendency during the last three, plus Rs. 40,000 or a lakh and sixty thousand. four or five years—indeed during the Plan Then he was getting advantages as period—has been one of further growth in the perquisites. He got plenty of money that way. income disparities in these concerns and further rise in the salaries of the top-men I have talked to people who know these whereas the eanvngs of the ordinary things. Probably, Mr. J. D. K. Brown of employees, the clerks and so on, have been Jardine Henderson was getting salary and more or less pegged. There is no rise emoluments totalling to a figure not less than, practically, certainly no rise if you take into they said, about Rs. 25,000 or Rs. 20,000. account the real wages. Prices are rising and Such is the position. Here you have got salary there is no rise whatsoever in their case Rs. 10,000, the net salary, the basic salary, whereas in the case of the others there is a plus a whole list of things. I have got them constant and continued lise of salaries. In here. Similarly, there are other executive Martin Burn & Co. very high salaries are heads, other functionaries there and their paid. This is not a cent, per cent. English salaries were increased. The salary of Shri concern, it is Indian now largely but it is more Giridhari L^l was raised from Rs. 23,400 to or less following that line and Rs. 4,000 or Rs. Rs. 50.000 along with him. He works in the 6,000 is paid to the high officials. In Burmah- same concern. Mr. J. V. J. Patterson's salary Shell it ranges from Rs. 4,000 to Rs. 7.000 or was raised from Rs. 44,000 basic to a salary Rs. 8.000. New recruits get into the service; of Rs. 84,000. And remember, these do not they are graduates from the Cambridge or include their allowances. So, this is the London University and some of them perhaps position now. I can tell you from our are no graduates at all. They f»et into these experience and of those who jobs merely because of some good connections I411 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960] (In Private Sector) Bill 1412 in England and they get Rs. 5,000. This has SHRIMATI T. NALLAMUTHU been a matter of complaint on the part of RAMAMURTI (Madras): What about the Indians always that whereas they being owner of the house? How is it that h» is qualified do not get anything, the Britishers satisfied with Rs. 400 as rent if the house is who cornt here are given very high salaries, worth a rent of Rs. 2,000. almost double of what the others get though they may not at all be qualified. This is the SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: The hon. position. Take Stanvac or Caltex or Andrew Member is asking about the owner of the Yule & Co. The same thing is happening house but my Bill deals only with the salaried there. They are the new rich. They did not persons, not with owners of houses. make money in the old way during the war. They earn plenty of money now. You just go SHRIMATI T. NALLAMUTHU to Clive Street and you will find huge limous- RAMAMURTI: On a question of fact, .Sir, inei parked there, each car costing about Rs. how is the owner satisfied with Rs. 400 if he 30,000 or Rs. 40,000. They are not all can get Rs. 2,000 per month? Directors; many of the cars belong to SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; I do not expect executive officials. They are high officials the hon. Member to know these dirty tricks and they are in a position to buy cars costing very much. The amount given is Rs. 2,000 but Rs. 70,000 to Rs. 80,000 from England or the figure shown here is Rs. 400. America. They go in for big luxurious costly Blackmarketing is a very common thing in American cars. They do not look very nice, our country. It is quite probable that the house very clumsy looking that way, gaudy. They owner gets Rs. 2,000 or Rs. 2,500 but the go in for things of this kind. It is ostentatious figure shown here is Rs. 400 because this is a display of wealth. If you go to Netaji Subhas perquisite and has to be shown in the return. Road at ten or eleven in the morning or if you These things are not hearsay. I have got them go there after five, you will find these big cars from the files of the officials of Jardine and rolling out of that area. This would Henderson. I have got photostat copies of demonstrate as to what kind of thing is some of these things also. They cannot deny it happening there. Government does not put and nobody can deny it. This is how they live. any restriction on this. They pay income tax, Another device that they foPow to show that yes. I know that they pay income tax but they the" Indians are also getting more is this. make all kinds of adjustments. For instance, Perhaps an Indian is getting Rs. 1,000. He is for the house in which Mr. J. D. K. Brown is* told, "We shall show your salary as Rs. 2,000 living in Alipore, he is supposed to pay a rent in the return." When the tax has to be paid, of Rs 400. This is what is shown In his salary some adjustments are made and the amount of bill whereas that house is worth much more. tax is given to these people. Actually, the man If I were a rich man and if I could rent this gets only Rs. 1,000. This is how things are house for Rs. 2,000 I would thank my stars happening. All kinds of malpractices are but h°re it is shown as Rs. 400 re-cause +he going on. I was telling you that thev get Rs. perquisites come into the calculation of tax. I 3,000 or Rs. 4,000 per month. Paired officials would ask any hon. Member who is prepared of the Income-tax Department are employed to come with me. I volunteer myself to do this as advisor* in some of these concerns and and take them to Alipore Road or Burdwan they arp paid very high salaries. Their sol" Road and they can see for themselves how assignment is to tell the boss as to how to these executives live there in air-conditioned evde income-tax. The accounting and houses and so on. aud'+ing is done bv others, hundreds of employees working in the accounts 1413 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] {In Private Sector) Bill 1414 [Shri Bhu.pe.ih Gupta.] department. is the position. Some are even made Directors. Suddenly you come across a cubicle or an Are we to allow such things? This is not only air-conditioned room and the chief man, the social in-jastice but social injustice with a adviser, sits there. If you enquire about the vengeance. Why are these people taken like whereabouts of that officer, you would find that? I will give you some instances. They are that he is a retired income-tax official or taken because they have got good connections somebody connected with the Government with Government. I would not be taken like in the old days. He never remains in his that. Or if Mr. Panikkar retires he would not room. We know this, because, be taken; even if he has connections, he unfortunately for you, the Communist Parly is cannot use them and he won't get such a job. very strong in the offices in Calcutta, and But some officials who know the rope-tricks therefore we know all these things. You will in the Administration, who know how to pull find that these officers come at 12 noon and the chains, they can easily get into such go away at one or a httle later. Therefore, positions. It is demoralising and the result is their advice, from the point of view of time, is that when he gets, others also get and you will very limited but it is very precious. The find a set of people like that. advice is, how to evade income-tax. These officers get Rs. 4,000 or Rs. 5,000. If you ask Now, a Minister's son—I won't mention anybody—after graduation, after he came out them, they will deny this thing, but if of the college, got a job in a business firm of Government cares to take the co-operation of Rs. 3,000. Now, shall I get even Rs. 300? I do the employees of these concerns, they will not think; I am particularly disqualified. But give corroborative evidence to show how the Minister's son who has just passed out of these things are bein? run there. AH kinds of the college would be particularly qualified. things are happening there. Officers of the Why is he given this job? One must look into I.C.S. after retirement get into these the context and various other things in order to concerns as high-salaried officials. They arrive at a correct type of conclusion. Then in made hay while the sun was shining and some cases we know—and this was now also get Rs. 3,000 or Rs. 4,000 They mentioned in the other House also—that the get a huge amount as pension but they are sons of Secretaries or I.C.S. officers get good not people who retire: they seek employment big jobs. I want that their sons should be well not in small shops in Connaught Circus placed but they should not go in for this kind or Janpath but they go in for b'g business- of things. They are paid Rs. 3,000 or Rs. houses and seek jobs *^er" and tbey get Rs. 4,000. This is the position. Now, the Gov- 4,000 or Rs. 5 000. T^ev may be aged but ernment issued a circular to find out how they seem to be very active in such matters many sons of Ministers and other high and 'hey pre t°ken in. Why are they taken Government officials were in business-houses. in? Why are they paH such hiVh sa^rie^;? Have they got the information? Have they The Indian HirfVy ComTnHsioner in been furnished with the facts? Then we would Pakistan, after ret-'rem-nt. po* a verv cushy like to have them. Let the Government share job, a fat-sql^er} -jr>b, in a business the facts with U3 because we would like to concern. I brought it to the notice of Govern- know how, where and in what manner the ment TW-ve he joined, in fact when children of the Ministers and big officials are nnefn+;qt!nn<; vn '« wi'ni? On. but nOth- placed. We are also interested to know that. in" ViaTiT^Tir! ^nd he is safely placed the-e. You w'T| find quite a good number of rrCTh SHRIMATI T. NALLAMUTHU RAMA- exp"iit;vps of the fjruTOTnmnnt af*pr rotii- MURTI: Is the hon. Member going to emfnt, some o* t>»rv*n p-<7~r\ T^Q-PO^O ^^tir^nient. seeking inbs in fh" b u i n e s s concerns. They get Rs. 4 000 or Rs. 5,000. Such 1415 Ceilings on Salary [ 9 DEC. 1960 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1416 dictate how the sons of Government servants these high salaries. And that is one of your should be employei? They are employed objects of your Second Five Year Plan. And I according to their aptitude and their have told you that the matter is also qualifications. What is this restriction on mentioned in the Directive Principles of the individual freedom? Constitution. How are you going to do it? This is the easiest thing to do. You cannot SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I am not going properly assess the assets of businessmen, to dictate to anybody. All that I say is that the shopkeepers, etc. because you do not know institution of high salaries is a source of how much they are earning, but it is easy to corruption. You seem to be interested in find out the income of salaried officials. You fighting corruption and therefore . . . must reduce these high-saJaries in the business concerns and that would be a good SHHIMATI T. NALLAMUTHU RAMA- example. MURTI: If the concern is efficiently run and if the salary is justifiable from the point of Now, the maximum that the IA.S. officers can view of the work turned out, I do not see why get today is Rs. 2,250 and they are also high salaries should not be paid. running our big concerns like the Hindustan Steels. Each of the three Managing Directors SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Well, there we of the Hindustan Steels gets Rs. 2,250 or less if differ and it is my misfortune to differ with they are in the earlier part of their service and her over this matter. A boy who has just they are running the steel mills. Why passed his B.A., who has just graduated, gets must, we allow the Tata Iron & Steel a salary of Rs. 3,000. Can she tell me—she is Company 1o pay their executive head Rs. an educationist—as to what kind of 10,000 or even Rs. 5,000. There is the ques- qualifications he is likely to have to attract tion of doing things efficiently or improving such a high salary? corruption. There is something basically wrong; we can get the same results. If today SHHIMATI T. NALLAMUTHU RAMA- the private sector gives very high and MURTI: There are personality tests, Sir. attractive salaries, what does it mean? It means that you do not get persons of good SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Well, Sir, calibre; they go away. Some of them go she has not given any proper answer. Then the abroad and get education there while others question arises, if the companies earn money, get education in the country. If they are why should they not pay high salaries? In that talented and able people, they always—many case why are you, under the Company Lav/, of them, I do not say every one of them—go having some restrictions on managing agents' into the private concerns where they find allowances, on directors' allowances etc.? You much more comforts, get higher salaries and so do accept the principle of restricting these on. Therefore, they drift away from the things; you don't leave things absolutely free public sector, from the Government under- in this matter. All that I say is, apply i he takings which are important today for us restrictions much mere rigidly. Once you and which will assume greater importance as accept this principle, do not stop half-way and we go on developing our economy. So, do not try to only tinker with this problem. why should we permit these high salaries? Come to the heart of the problem and apply Now, we know what is happening. the restrictions forcefully so that income Whenever there is a question of finding an exe- disparities are removed. You cannot remove cutive head for a public sector undertaking income disparities without reducing like, shall we say the Hindustan Aircraft in Mysore, we go in for people who do not have expert 1417 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1418 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] knowledge of the given salaries; I have no quarrel with that subject. When we want somebody for the Sindri but we have to decide as to what should be Fertiliser Co., we just transfer one officer from, the maximum limit, as to what should be the say, the Education Ministry to the Sindri ceiling taking into account all the factors. Fertilisers. What does an officer who had been I made some enquiries in the Soviet Union. handling files in the Education Ministry know That is a big country. They have gone, you about the business of running a fertiliser concern will agree, a bit ahead in such matters like like the Sindri Fertiliser Co.? When you shift him production, industries, etc. I had been to many there, you do so because firstly the general factories where things are done by approach is wrong. You have a bureaucratist automation, where there is a very high mind and you do so also because you find that technical development. I made enquiries— better people do not come in—people who have because India always is in my mind—as to got education, people who have got expert know- how much the person in charge of a factory ledge. They are taken away by these other people got. I found that it was 3,000 roubles, 4,000 who can pay them 5,000 or 10,000 rupees a roubles, like that. But, mind you, you do not month. That is how things are going on. Are we have such concerns here; I am talking about to allow this? The Prime Minister of the country the biggest among them. gets, I think, a salary of R;. 2,250. He runs the big business called India; it is a big business-house SHRI SUDHIR GHOSH: Does th« and the managing agency is also hon. Member know that in Soviet Russia the flourishing. He runs it as its head General Manager of a Steel Plant gets four on a salary of Rs. 2,250. But when it is a question times the salary which the Government of of the Ba'.mer Lawrie of Calcutta, their executive India pays to a General Manager in the public head gets Rs 10.000 per month. And he ■ manages sector? a very small affair compared to the affairs of our State. Why SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Public sector. It should we permit this? You will say may be a little more, I agree; but here I am that such things happen in the United talking of the private sector. Certainly my States of America but it is not a good quarrel is that you pay the public sector here thing. Here the Constitution provides a very high comparatively less but you will And very few salary—it is supposed to be the highest—for the people in the Soviet Union who get as much President of Rs. 10,000. But Mr. J. D. as Mr. J. D. K. Brown of Jardine Henderson. K. Brown gets twice as much as the And they are running huge factories. And President; only he does not have a what is more? Who are those people who Rashtrapati Bhavan. Also he does manage the affairs? They are chosen from the not have a big car pulled by 12 horses; workers themselves; they are the people who it is not necessary. He gets a car come up with technical skill and expert from the United States of America. knowledge. They are not I.C.S. officers Otherwise he is in a far more advantageous drafted from the maternity homes into a position than even t h e factory, that is to say, officers on the maternity Head of our State. We handle side, shall we say, in the Health Ministry. It is budgets of Rs. 700 crores a year, not that. They are people who have grown up, while he handles a budget of Rs. 1 ■crore or so, acquired experience, knowledge and special but still so much money training. They are the chiefs, some persons is being paid to him. Therefore this who are running the factory there I found one is entirely wrong. All what I say person near Leningrad. He was a worker, a is, it should be gone into and these boy, in that very concern. Today he is the head high salaries should be reduced. I and the big official has :do not say that officers should not be 1419 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1420 to bow to him, as far as these things are do not have a British Governor here or a concerned. That is why they make progress. Commissioner there. We thought that You cannot make progress, industrial everything was a thing of the past. Come to advance, by putting a parasitic class of people Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose Road, Calcutta's at the executive top, whose whole attraction is business area. You will find that they are the high salary. And he knows it. Mr. Sudhir there in larger numbers, economically fat Ghosh is a much more knowledgeable person stronger individually. They are getting in such matters. This is the attraction. How salaries which they could not dream of when can you increase coal production? There we were under the British rule. They could bungling takes place. So many things happen. not dream of such salaries. Should not the These are the people who are entrusted with Congress Government stop it? I know, for the job. They do not possess social ideas. As example, in many countries, especially in long as they get their high salary, they are Cuba, it is being done. In other countries it is satisfied. This is the position. Now, this has being done. We have got our people who become an institution, a horrible institution, in would work for a smaller sum and that money our country. We must put a stop to it. Then, I could be saved for India. Why should we pay find Government officers complaining. When a high salary for top executive posts? Why we say that the salaries of the high cannot the Government reduce their number Government officials should be reduced, from and reduce their salaries? I would ask the Rs. 2,250 maximum to something else, they Government to give a satisfactory explanation say: "Yes, we arc a very few people. You in this House. want our salaries to be reduced and you can do it. We know that. But what about those people who are numerous and getting much higher salaries than we get? Why does not the Then, Sir, you find that sometimes people Government do something about it?" Well, we leave colleges. They are asked to leave cannot deal with such an argument. In the college to take jobs elsewhere. A college U.P. they are reducing the salaries of professor, the head of the department, gets Rs- Ministers and Deputy Ministers. It is a good 1,200 in Calcutta. Sometimes such people are thing that you are reducing it. In Kerala our approached and told: "Come and take up the Ministry in a small way brought down the job. We shall pay you Rs. 2,000." If he is an salary of Ministers from Rs. 700 to Rs. 500 economist, he is asked to corns to a business and our Ministers took only Rs. 350 actually concern as an Economic Adviser with an offer and paid Rs. 50 to of a salary of Rs. 3,000 or so. Such things are ■ the Communist Party as a monthly donation. happening. Now, Sir, the Government does That is what we did. Here you reduce it. But not do much about it. I know that there is one what is the use of doing it by way of a reason for it. They do not want to disturb the gesture? Where you must try is the private apparatus there at the top. They very much sector, where money gets concentrated in the rely on those people at the top. That is why hands of a small number of people giving rise they maintain the status quo. Therefore, this to all kinds of malpractices, corruption, should be given up absolutely. Then, there is social injustices another example. Somebody was saying that. ■ and all the rest of it. That is how it should be Mr. Tariq mentioned a case in the other viewed. House. He brought there an identical Bill, more or less. He said that somebody in the Then, Sir, the British especially are the district concern of a private undertaking was favoured children today of the Congress getting Rs. 10,000 per month. Would you Government. We do not have British Judges believe it? in the court. We 1421 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1422 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] A person who is Then, Sir, here again, there is another engaged in an undertaking functioning in a system. Children of the owners of big district headquarters, with a district range, ii concerns get a high salary immediately. getting Rs. 10,000. Now, nobody bothers Somebody told me that a little boy of the about it. The Government should be worried Birlas, when he was fifteen years of age, was about the situation in this respect. They do not getting as much as «Rs. 3,000 or so. do any such thing. They do not take any action whatsoever. I wish I could give the number. I told Shri Kri^hnamachari, when he was there: "You please collect from the big business houses, especially the foreign houses, the total SHRI BAIRAGI DWIBEDY (Orissa) : number of high-salaried officials who get, say, Even Ministers' sons are getting it. Rs. 2,000 or more than Rs. 2,000 or Rs. 3,000. Let us see how the situation stands." He said he was trying and he said something that the British people had not tried to reply. They sent circulars, but then we could not enforce them SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: About Ministers' that way. It may be so. But there are other sons, Ministers can tell us belter. Mr. Bhagat ways of finding out. If necessary, we can make can tell us. Yes, they are getting it, but they it compulsory for every concern of that kind would not tell us. We know some people by law to furnish a complete list of their high- would say: Why are you against the Ministers' salaried officials, the particulars that we sons? Why should I be against the Ministers' require. They cannot escape. We can make it a sons? They should get what they deserve. I penal offence to evade this kind of have no quarrel either with the Ministers or information, to withhold this kind of with their sons. If they are fortunate enough information from the Government. It is to-be born as Ministers' sons, they should get possible for us to do so. If the Government can some money. Why should I quarrel with send circulars to their officers saying that they them? It is not a quarrel with a particular must supply information as to how mucTi person or a particular person's son. It is a property they hold and whether some of their quarrel with the system, with the institution. children are employed, why cannot we do the When the Ministers' sons get into the picture, same thing with respect to business concerns when they are put in the ring, the trouble in our country and call upon them to fulffi this becomes a little deep. They get involved. If obligation? Now, here is a case of too many Ministers help too many of their discrimination. Why is this discrimination children, place them in such situations where against the Government officials? Why is this they attract high salaries, you would not not practised against the other sections also? It expect legislation being brought by them. seems that these people, the big busines j- Something will stick in their throat, even if houses, always get the better of the constantly pricked to do something, Government in such matters. I think it is not a remembering the Second Five Year Plan or party question at all. All of us should put our the Directive Principles of the Constitution. heads together to see that this situation is put Between the pull of the son and the pull of the an end to in the interests of the country, in the Constitution, probably the pull of the son and interests of some of the objectives that we his future would get the better of the situation. commonly share. This is very important. That is what I think. That is the trouble. Therefore, it is not a question of a few sons. Many more sons are there of very many people. It is a question of the sons of such oeoplp who control the destinies of the country, in 1423 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC, 1960] (In Private Sector) Bill 1424 whose hands rest the power of reducing income like such things to happen. They want their disparities by economic ani other fiscal organisation to be above suspicion. They do measures, in whom the country has reposed the not like this kind of transactions in which responsibility of taking effective measures politics are getting involved with business- against money bags and against this kind of soc houses. But nothing is being done. I want to ai injustice. That is the point. Therefore, it is know what argument the hon. Minister can very relevant when soma hon. friend refers to advance. You see here is a case. The second Ministers' sons, not because he is a Minister's Managing Director of Martin Burn gets Rs. a particular individual, but because of the 5,500 plus 2 per cent, of the profits as com- system in which it operating. That is the mission. It has already been approved by the position. Previously, how many Ministers' Department of Company Law Administration. sons there were who did not go in for education? The Department of Company Law Take teachers in the colleges, for example. Administration should look into it. It is a Some of them do not seek election. Where Government Department. Here the salary is are they? We would like to know where they settled. I can give the name of the person also, are. I do not say that in regard to all but some of C. S. Gupta. It has nothing to do with me. I do them. Some of them are qualified. Those not get any part of the salary. who are qualified should get what is due to them. It fact I would like to have more Minis- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No names ters' sons rather than British people sitiing in should be mentioned. Netaji Subhas Road and taking the money from our country. But where do they go? SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I will not make Previously, an I.C S. officer's son aspired to be much of it. He is getting a salary . . . an I.C.S. officer himself. A Government officer's son went in for competitive MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do not bring examinations either in the Finance branch in any names. or in the Administration branch or in the Police branch. But today they do not seem to SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Otherwise it go in for such examinations. They go in for will not be clear. Anyway, shall we say, executive jobs in business concerns. Af^er some Gupta. "Gupta" is a very large graduation or passing out of the university or category. From Chandra Gupta to me so after having got some foreign qualification many Guptas are there. That gentleman is they do not turn to the Government services. getting Rs. 5,500 plus 2 per cent, commission. They go in for the big business concerns There was a complaint on that score that the where they get very high salaries, It is very Company Law Administration should not do bad. I tell you, Sir, this is extremely bad for it, but they did it Since you do not want names our country. It happens because the to be given,'I do not wish to give names. I attraction of the high salary is there, and it is a have nothing to say against individuals as natural weakness on the part of men in the individuals. I am against the institution. private sector to seek high salaries, and that is Similarly—as you would not like names to be what is done. Therefore, Sir. it is wrong from given, I will not give names—we have found that ang^e also, and I know that it is causing out in Bengal how many Ministers' sons are worry to the Congress Party. The Congress placed where and how many big officers' sons porty are also worried about it, and they are placed where. These names are there, I sometimes make enquiries. This thing is talked think, in some document, the names are about in the Congress Party, and many mentioned. I think if the hon. Members opposite Congressmen do not care, they can also find out thrsu I things. One has only to ask the 1425 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA] (In Private Sector) Bill 1426 [Shri Bhupesh Gupta.] neighbour, round ed, but the Congress Party thought that our goes the whisper, this sort of thing, and you suggestion should not be accepted, and some have only to check up and come to of the Congressmen wanted Rs. 600 as salary conclusions. Such things are happening. and Rs. 40 as daily allowance and what not. That was debated. I do not think that our Sir, what does my Bill say? It says that some M.Ps. get very little. They get, I think, a high Committee should be appointed and it should salary that way as compared to what the M.Ps. go into the whole question with a view to should get. If the Government brings forward fixing the salaries and it should make re- a Bill tomorrow reducing the salaries of the commendations. I am not going to be unjust M.Ps., I shall receive the Bill with open aims to anybody. Everyone should get what is his and extend my full support to it. There is no due, and it should be settled through mutua doubt about it. But let us not deal with the consultation looking into each aspect of the MPs. We are only 700 and do not get so much pro-.1, taking in.o account the pros and cons compared to Mr. J. D. K. Brown who is of the entire situation. This is how I want getting Rs. 10,000 as basic salary per month. these things to be done. I am not in a hurry, But if you like, I am prepared to set an but I think measures like this should be taken. example. I was talking about the Prime Min- ister setting an example. He has been off and Sir, I have spoken at length on the subject, on speaking on the subject. People like him to because I find many Congressmen, notably speak. Sometimes in his speech you hear the the Prime Minister, speaking of reduction of echo of those days of freedom struggle when salaries. He does not like high salaries, and it high ideals were preached from the rostrum of was a good example he set before the country the Congress, from the platform of the party when he refused to take a higher salary as and even from the floor of the Central Prime Minister than what the Cabinet Legislature and the State Legislatures. We like Ministers got. We all appreciated this thing, to hear such things, but when it comes to but the task of the Prime Minister is not practice, the mountain of speeches is merely to be a saint himself in such matters. producing the mouse of a Bill, and nothing The task of the Prime Minister is to eliminate more. This is my quarrel. The Prime Minister sin in all public life. It is not a question of is a good person, he has won the admiration of individual renunciation that one goes and sits the entire country when he took a salary of Rs. at the foothill of Himalayas and prays. The 2,250. But then it was the case wiUh the Prime Minister's job is to see that that moral Prime Minister. Has he implemented it in our code is established not only for himself but public life? Has he established that moral code for the entire country. in our public life? Has he done anything to reduce the salaries of the high executive SHRI SUDHIR GHOSH: Look at the M.Ps. officials of the British concerns in other Rs. 400 or 450. What a frightful amount of places, to bring them down? If he can manage, sacrifice! as I said, this big managing agency called the Sfate of India, those gent'emen there should be SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA; If you satisfied with a much lesser salary. If we pass ask me, I think it is a legitimate question. a law, will they run away? They will not run Surely if somebody listened to me from away. Thev will return here. Even if some of outside, he would ask the question: "What therH run away to some of their countries like about you"? I understand. Therefore, when England, we shall put OUr men there. What is the Salary Bill came up, we proposed a salary wrong in it? Production will not go down. of Rs. 300 and Rs. 10 as daily allowance in Things those early days when we came to Parliament. This is what we suggest- 3427 Ceilings on Salary f 8 DEC. 1960] (.In Private Sector) Bill 1428 will not become worse. We shall find \ people ideas which the Government cannot ignore to carry out jobs, and in fact we do need for long. Therefore, I would appeal to every Indianisation of the high executive posts in all Member opposite to support this Bill, and let British concerns. It is a shame that seven us make it a non-party issue. thousand British people here are holding the key, basic, important industries in their commercial houses in our country, drawing As to what should be the ceiling, what high salaries, and sending a part of our money should be the highest saary, there may be to their country, denying the country what be- difference of opinion. Some may feel Rs. longs to it, namely the foreign exchange. That 2,000, some may say Rs. 1,800 and some is the position. Nothing others may say Rs. 2,500. But there are no two is being done that way. There-1 P.M. opinions on this point that the salaries of the fore, we are not satisfied with high executives who are getting Ks. 4,000, Rs. it. Ministerial gestures will not do. 5,000, Rs. 10,000, or Rs, 15,000 should be Today people have seen us; they have seen reduced. There are no two opinions on this through us. This kind o' gestures of going in a subject either in the country or I hope even in very modest dress and taking very little salary this House. Therefore, this weight of voice but worshipping millionaires and other people should be felt and I think the Government will not do and people are not impressed by should be told bluntly iind plainly that they these gestures. They want to judge the have failed in discharging their obligations, Government by what they do, but not by what that. they have bypassed the directives of the they say. You yourself talk as a Prime Constitution, they have ignored them and that Minister but what are you doing in respect of it is time, after thirteen years of independence those who are enjoying, who are living on the when they are entering the Third Five Year fat of the people, denying the people what is Plan, that they should mend your ways. It is due to them, building their fortunes out of no use appointing a Committee to find out their misery and hunger? That is how they where the national income is going. The behave. That is why I say that the Government national income is going to people like Mr. J. has completely failed in this and therefore, Sir, D. K. Brown. You do not require a high- I would commend this Bill for the con- power commission to discover the obvious sideration of hon. Members. I believe they fact that it is the rich man at the top who is will feel that I am speaking as a non-party taking away the nation's hard-earned income, man. My philosophy also teaches me this but and it does not require much effort to remedy this is a thing I have borrowed from their own the situation if only you have that mind and past teaching, from their own ideals, from pass measures like this in order to bring down, their own protestations, from their own at least, to begin with, the salaries of the high- utterances and statements and so on. salaried officials in the private sector and set Therefore, this is a thing which should be an example. We should surround them from shared by us all, and I do not see any reason all sides. why this Bill should not be supported I hope every Member of this House will support this MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That will do. measure; even if this Bill is not passed due to the obstinacy of the Government, every-one speaking on this Bill will help in creating that SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Yes, Sir, you are volume of public opinion to which the quite right. That will do. I hope your Government has to listen tomorrow, if not anticipation that it will do is right. today, and we shall be setting in a new process in our thoughts and The question was proposed. 1429 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1430 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; We •shall tion has not been taKen into consideration; take up the discussion after lunch. The House there are many practical difficulties. As it is, stands adjourned til] 2.30 P.M. the income—and the standard of living—of the agricultural classes and the other working The House then adjourned for classes which are not even in the statutory lunch at three minutes past one of industries, are very much lower than the the clock. wages given to Class IV Government officials or the wages that are guaranteed in statutory industries where the wages are regulated .by statute. The population is growing up, but the The House reassembled after lunch at half- income of the country is not rising in the same past two of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN proportion, and the hackneyed phrase that the in the Chair. rich are becoming LIS >•- and the poor poorer in a way has come true, and that i» why the DR. SHRIMATI SEETA PARMA-NAND national income enquiry committee has been (Madhya Pradesh): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, set up because it is not known where I am glad that this Bill has come before the exactly—though there is a fair guess—the rise House although the way in which it is drafted in the national income during the last ten or the type of clauses which are set out in this years has gone. Bill are not of a nature to achieve the object in the most desirable manner. The Bill requires amendment. Still the Bill does focus attention I would like to point out, to begin with, the on a very important matter which is agitating problems that arise between the official the minds of persons belonging to all parties, salaries and those that are being paid in the as has been rightly pointed out by the mover of private sector and the confusion that, is the Bill. Sir, there is no doubt that, since the created as a result. It is well known Sir, ,as attempt to raise the salaries of the lower was pointed out. that the more promising classes, of the workers, and the attempt also to students or the sons of the rich people, who lower the salaries of the higher class of get a chance of better education in public Government servants, there has been a great schools and who get a chance to go abroad, difficulty in making this a practicable are seeking jobs today not under Government proposition. In between has come the influx of but in the private sector, and the initial salary foreign capital and that has brought in given there is very often as much as Rs. 600 to additional problems, and as such, as is rightly start with, after a year's probation on Rs. 350, pointed out in this Bill, the running of the and all found, for example, a furnished house public sector on the same' lines as the including a refrigerator and very often a car, successful private sector has also become a and they are out of all proportion to what any difficult proposition. While agreeing with poor country like ours can give. It may be many of the points put forward by the hon. the argued that this is so in many countries where mover, I would like to focus attention on some business has to be encouraged. It may be also of them and that is with a view to pointing out pointed out that this is so because Government other difficulties in addition. Sir, there is no service is more or less of a guaranteed nature doubt that the highest salaries todav in our and nobody can say that even in the best of eountrv are out of all proportion to those that concerns the future of the concern will be kept can be given to those in the lowest offices, and guaranteed in the same way as Government the way in which the topmost salaries have service, so there is security in Government been fixed has been out of different considera- service. Even then the difference cannot be tions altogether, and the whole Ques- more than about 25 per cent. 1431 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960] (In Private Sector) Bill 14 32
* 30 per cent. It also happens that :ven foreigners or may be occasionally to our own Government servants who have >ut in twenty people, to Indians—are justified from the years or twenty-five fears of service leave point of view of not ploughing back in the Government jobs ind take jobs immediately in industry a certain amount of money, ex. and the pri-/ate sector on a salary twice that they how much money of the industry should be were getting while in Government service and shown towards the expenditure side. There the salary is the highest jf all salaries in are many corrupt practices that come in as a Government service. This has also many result not only because such high salaries are disadvantages, but this has to be corrected not given on paper but certain amounts of the through legislation but by putting these terms wages of the workers, which are not properly Of reference to a committee whether a paid to the workers, are going to these persons Government servant should be allowed to join in the private sector though we are here the private sector within a certain number of dealing legitimately with only the salaries that years of his leaving Government service. Very are paid not on paper but in fact. All these often '.he reason why a Government servant is factors that creep into the question have also given twice the salary he got in Government to be looked into. It is not only with regard to service is not that he is considered so the managerial staff or the people at the top competent, not that his service record is so that this question has to be considered, but it brilliant; it is because he is supposed to have has to be considered at lower levels also. It certain contacts with the officers who mat'.er has been noticed these days that because the for promoting the prospects of the public salaries in the private sector are so high, the sector. public sector also has had to. raise their salaries to some extent, and as a result the salaries of doctors and other personnel of that SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You mean type have to be raised and Government private sector. hospitals, etc. where doctors are required, are starved of medical personnel only because the DR. SHRIMATI SEETA PARMA-NAND: salaries in government services cannot be so Yes, I am thankful for the correction. Sir, it high. Although I do not agree that the way in may happen that the so-called efficient officer which this problem is sought to be tackled or the experienced officer could be utilised will lead to any result, something could be from the point of view of promoting the done. interests of the private sector in a fair manner; it is also possible that this person could be Sir, the question of salaries of lower classes utilised in an unfair or a corrupt manner. That is raised again and again. That question is not factor has to be seen, instances of this kind, of being solved satisfactorily by the Government servants finding their prospects Government in spite of promises of linking blocked or Government servants at the highest up prices of essential commodities with the level finding that they are not getting salary. I feel, therefore, that this question will equitable treatment with regard to extension have to be tackled by making certain rules of their service or, before their time is up, and pointing out to foreign concerns, when leaving the Government job and as such they ask for permission to start business in depriving Government of his experience this country, that the relation of their salaries gained at Government cost, and putting it, should be somewhat in proportion to the more for his own personal advantage, at the salaries prevalent in the country. There is no disposal of the private sector, are increasing. doubt that if such rules are made, instead of a SimPar-ly, Sir, it is very necessary to decide Bill being passed for the purpose, they whether the high salaries that are given in the private sector—may be to 1433 Ceilings on Salary [ KAJYA SABHA ] (fn Private Sector) Bill 1434 [Dr. Shrimati Seeta Parmanand.] will be Sir, if the salary of the lowest income prepared to accept the suggestion and group, after allowing all the facilities work accordingly. mentioned by me, could be brought down to a ceiling of Rs. 60 —they need not the Sir, I feel that it is quite correct that the minimum of Rs. 120 as is advocated—for an students—particularly sons of rich people— individual with a family of two or three to throw away opportunities for scholarships and make a living, it would satisfy the individual. higher studies because they feel quite sure that Therefore, Sir, I would suggest that though we their parents with their influence—I do not may not accept the Bill—I do not think the want to mention any class, be it Ministers or Bill in itself has that much force or substance high business people—will get them good in it to give all-round satisfaction— jobs. I have come across quite a good number Government should set itself to devise of cases where the students feel that instead of satisfactory methods. Sir, I feel that the Pay sweating or doing hard work by studying and Commission has left the job half-done, rather passing examinations, their parents will have the Government has left the job half-done by enough influence to see them fixed up in jobs not being able to implement the suggestions which will be much better than those available of the Pay Commission. That leaves room through competitive examinations. For these open for dissatisfaction and prepares the reasons also this question has to be settled. I ground for another strike. Before such a situ- would, therefore, suggest that besides going ation arises, it is necessary for the into the question, Government should fix the Government to regulate the prices of essential minimum salary required for every individual commodities. It is necessary for the group of services. We know very well that a Government to guarantee necessary amenities high salary by itself does not give any to public servants, whether in Government satisfaction. If in a country, from the highest service or in the service of the public sector. person to the lowest person, essential require- ments like medical services, children's Government should also frame rules that education, old-age requirements and a more or less similar pay scales would be comfortable house to live in as also some given in the private sector, though because of monthly expenses are guaranteed, the uncertainty of continuity of service in the Government servants would not bother about private sector, they could allow them to give a just high salaries. Actually, from that point of little higher percentage of salary. If in that vipw many Government servants feel that sector wages or emoluments could be what is being given to them with the right regulated, then alone it would be possible to hand is being taken away by the left hand say that a large section of the country in the through taxes, and a good chunk of their agricultural sector as well as in the industrial salary goes away. I, therefore, feel that in sector, or in places where salaries are not order to give satisfaction to the lower group of regulated according to law, will be able to get employees it would be better that they are something in proportion to what these people guaranteed amenities like education to their in the private sector are getting. That factor children, a certain amount of money for their was also pointed out by the mover of the Bill. children's marriage etc. That, I hope, will also limit the expenditure on marriages though one Sir, as was pointed out by the nonourable day, perhaps, dowries would not be there. the mover of the Bill, the number of foreign Therefore, this would not be such a big employees in these companies is going up by problem. They would themselves be satisfied leaps and bounds. They are paid very much with salaries round about Rs. 1,000. higher than what is paid in the I435 Ceilings on Salary [ 9 DEC. 1960 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1436 public sector or to Government servants. In salaries, they have gradually found out that it spite of high salaries, the dividend paid by is not workable and, therefore, some private sector companies is very high. I do not difference has to be there according to the know whether it is a tribute to their efficiency. talents of the people. This talent can be The Government should put -ome ceiling on judged through departmental examinations, as ; this d vidend. Even some of our indigenous is the custom there. Every few years, after companies, with smaller salaries to their em- some refresher course or efficiency. test it can ployees, are paying high dividend. I do not be judged. But at the same time there should know how they manage it. But I think some not be so much disparity, one man gettting limit should be put on the dividend paid by Rs. 6,000 per month, another man getting Rs. them. Sir, talking from my limited experience 60 per month, yet another man finding it in my area where I live in Madhya Pradesh— difficult to get even Rs. 6 per month. Thank I do not want to mention the names of firms or you. persons— the number of foreign employees in the private sector is going up; it has doubled. I would draw the attention of the Government SHRI M. S. GURUPADA SWAMY to it with a view to their doing something (Mysore): My party and myself are happy that immediately in the matter so that the proper this important matter of ceiling on salary has people out of our working personnel as also been brought before us through this Bill and I the efficient people out of the Government am thankful to Shri Bhupesh Gupta for having personnel at the top level are not attracted by focussed the attention of this House on this the private sector. question which is almost neglected though its importance was recognised by all sections. The problem of ceiling on salary is not Sir, during the British days it was said by discussed for the first t-me, though it is roming some of the eminent scholars that the IC S. before this House in this form for the first and other imperial services were a curse to the time. People have been vaguely but anxious, country from the point of view of attracting ly thnking that there should be some rational talent to scholarship and scientific basis in regard to this question of salary. Many development, and really it was so. But now if political parties have considered this issue, they are not coming tc Government service it perhaps many resolutions also have been pass- is because they are attracted much more to the ed. But now, when the atmosphere and the private sector, particularly people on whom opinion in the country is attracted and drawn the country in one form or the other has spent towards socialism and socialistic so much—on their education. So, this is a reconstruction of society, its importance and matter which does not brook any delay and value has become all the more great. We have the soone* the Government takes steps to to think whether in this country of ours which equalise the salaries, even in private sector, as has accepted socialism and socialist thought, it has been done in many other countries, the would be wise on our part to allow social and better it would be. economic pyramids to rise when large tracts are starving or impoverished. This is the basic Sir, I would not like my last sentence to be problem before us and we have to look at this misunderstood. Even in the Communist question from this point of view. countries there is a large difference in salaries at the top and bottom. Though they began in the beginning with the idea that everybody would The way the problem of ceiling has been be paid equal I dealt with in this Bill may not be very satisfactory. I would have felt happy if the mover had brought 1437 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA J [In Private Seclor) Bill 1438 [Shri M. S. Gurupada Swamy.] into this of the firm but also it should have some measure both the limits, the highest and the rational bearing on the general economy of lowest, that is, he should have dealt both with the country. It should have relation with the the national maximum and the national mini- cost of living, with the standards of living of mum in regard to salaries, especially salaries the people in general and also, as my friend in the private sector, because I feel that unless said, it should have a bearing on the we have a safe, firm and a rational base, it efficiency. I do not think a higher salary would not be advisable to put a ceiling. So, it means higher efficiency. I never believe in will be proper and fair that we should have that. If that is so, then the Prime Minister of both the national minimum below which the India who is drawing only Rs. 2,250 must salary should not go and also the national have been very inefficient. Various Ministers maximum beyond which the salary should not who draw the salary of Rs. 800 or Rs. 1,000 increase. Then the approach would have been in the States must have been thoroughly acceptable and the problem could have been incompetent. If salary is to be the criterion of solved more effectively; otherwise merely higher efficiency, then all the austerity putting a ceiling on salary, without fixing a measures we have introduced would be minimum and without working out the ratio wrong. So, I always feel that higher salaries between the minimum and the maximum, are not a mark of higher efficiency. But why would make the whole measure meaningless. are higher salaries given? That is a very So, perhaps Shri Bhupesh Gupta has left it out interesting question. Shri Bhupesh Gupta has by oversight. Perhaps, he would agree with given figures to show why and how salaries me that this is necessary and the question of are being salary should be approached in this two-point given and how far they are 3 P.M. direction. justifiable. Sir, today there is a mad rush to get employment in ; If you look at the private sector today, they private firms. Take concerns l ke the Burmah always say to us that they have bten very Shell, Caltex, the rubber companies and so much taxed. It is true that they have been on. There is so much rush for employment taxed. The taxes have increased in the same there that we do not see so much of this rush way as their profits have increased but it is for employment even in the Government or in also very very true that along with this the public sector. Many of us are aware how increasing taxation, they have been able to the cinema stars, a few of them, get lakhs of give to their staff very high salaries which rupees for acting in a picture. Perhaps, today a ultimately add to the cost of production. They top class star gets about Rs. 5 lakhs or Rs. 6 have not bestowed their thought perhaps upon lakhs. the question of having a rational relationship of the salary they give, to the income of their AN HON. MEMBER: Per film? concern. They have not been able perhaps to consider what relationship should exist between the salaries of the staff and the gene- SHRI M. S. GURUPADA SWAMY: Yes, ral economy of the country. We cannot deal per film. In the same way, a few executives in with this question in a very isolated way the country also are paid, if not such huge because largely, whatever is done in a amounts, nevertheless they are paid big concern, especially in a big concern, will have amounts. There are a few executives ultimately some bearing on the general available. Some of them are retired persons economy of the country. I always believe that who have gained experience in the the salary should not only have a rational Government or they are technical people or relationship with the economy perhaps—and that I think is more relevant here—they have got great pulls with the departments of the Government. So, they are very much in 1439 Ceilings on Salary £%©*©. 19
In the same way another argument was SHRI K. K. SHAH: I do not mind your advanced; a very very novel argument— interruption; you will not be able to I am not given to harsh mislead me from my argument. My hon. friend while arguing said 1447 Ceilings on Salary [9>DKC."I9. (In Private Sector) Bill 1448 words; therefore, I would only say salaries. Some are experts in explosives. novel—that if the public sector pays Rs. One of them is from my own village. 25,000 as salary there is nothing to Some are experts in testing the strength complain about it but if the private aector of ,■ aluminium sheets. When they are pays Rs. 25,000 therfe is everything to called upon to use the knowledge that complain about. May 1 know on what they have gathered in the: interests ■ ©f principle? Ultimately, the person who this country, they refuse to come here. In gets Rs. 25,000 gets an income which' the same way, we are still lagging behind creates disparities, an income which is so far as knowledge of science and tech- quite disproportionate to the national nology is concerned. If by paying a fat income or to the average income in the salary that knowledge is available —just country, whether he is paid by the private as my friends in Russia are taking sector or whether he is paid by the public advantage of outside people by paying sector. But for him any stick with which them fat salaries—this country also he can beat is welcome and that is why should be prepared to pay the price. What my hon. friend advanced this argument. comes to: our rescue is the taxation Let him not serve us with stale food; that structure. is my complaint against him. There are other arguments which my Friends carried on an experiment in friend has advanced and I shall take them Russia and whatever is good there is one by one. If his real object is not a welcome. We have not . dosed our eyes or ceiling on income, not to have disparity or ears our minds- and if ever we close in income, which is a larger question, but our minds, thoughts travel and nobody to compare what the Government can prevent thoughts from travelling. servants are getting with what the private They did not give the necessary salaries, individual is getting or what the private but realised that in the modem world the sector is paying, I am prepared to accept race in technology had to be won. If that this large disparity does create diffi- talent has to be encouraged, then facilities culty. But the solution is not the one that must be given, incentives must be given. he has suggested. The approach of those A cinema artiste there is paid 25,000 who take to Government service and roubles. Now* the best experiment, from those who serve in the private sector is your point of view, which has been quite different, just as the approach of carried out is in Russia. After having tried those who take to public life and accept all ways and means, having exhausted all Rs. 400 as a Member of Parliament is methods of calculation and manner of quite different from those who do not thinking, if they are thinking of revising accept public life but accept private the systenxfor attracting intellectuals how employment. I am sure if my friend, Shri is ,it that we think of going against an Bhupesh Gupta, had joined the private intellectual who is able to make us-win sector, he would have drawn a fat salary the race for us in the world. Now, I can of Rs. 10,000 a month. I have no doubt in understand if ways and means were not my mind about that. Or, if he had devised for ploughing back whatever he employed himself in private enterprise, took away. If economic power were he would have minted money and allowed to be concentrated in his hands if allowed his money to be ploughed back he were able to build up some capital out to the Government treasury in- the form of it, then the complaint would be of taxation. justified.
There is another aspect to which I beg SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Never. to draw my hon. friend's attention. A number of students studying in America SHRI K. K. SHAH: But that depends have been drawing fat upon the approach. Simply because a fat salary is available, it is not the 1449 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1450
[Shri K. K. Shah.] only thing which exercised by his father as a Minister is not attracts an intelligent man. Sometimes utilised he is welcome to have a free opportunity for his talent, sometimes display for his talent. It should not be a opportunity to eerve, sometimes crime to be bom as the son of a Minister opportunity to carry on research, plays an and he should not suffer from any important role in making up one's mind. disability, just as he should not exploit his All those opportunities which are father's privileged position as a Minister. I available here in Government service or do not know if my hon. friend's in the public sector are not available in contention is to restrict the salaries of the private sector. In spite of the fat those who have been drawing big salaries salary, many intelligent people refuse to but who come from poor families, go and join the private sector. It may be because if he is a rich man, then whatever that the Government may have to he takes, he gives back. Therefore, the reconsider the cases of those Who are objection can only be against the man serving in the public sector. Government who has not a pie in his bank account, and may have to devise ways and means of who is trying to build himself up by seeing that those who have been serving drawing a fat salary and who comes from the Government are given more facilities. a poor family. Even such a man does not save more than Rs. 500 a month My hon. friend was referring to the according to the present form of taxation. Kerala Ministry and was saying that the It may be a little more. Therefore, why Kerala Ministers had reduced their should a man, who has come from a very salaries to Rs. 500. Now, surely, if you poor family and who has built himself up reduced the salary to Rs. 500, but and having nothing to fall back upon and enjoyed other patronage in some form or having struggled for the major portion of other it did not amount to reduction. You his life, not be allowed to draw a salary of took care to see to the coffers of the party Rs. 5,000, if he is fit for it? Ultimately if in power being replenished in other ways. he builds up any capital, he will go to the class which pays through its nose. If he SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Now, we are entering elections. does not build up capital and sticks to the middle-class, to which all of us profess to SHRI K. K. SHAH: You built up by belong, then there is nothing wrong. other means. Suppose I draw as a SHRI DAHYABHAI V. PATEL Minister only Rs. 200 and maintain three (Gujarat): He belongs to the middle class. workers . . .
SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: You main- SHRI K. K. SHAH: You can examine tain a number of Ministers. it. Do not worry about it. You have seen me as a lawyer. You know from where I SHRI K K. SHAH: Now, you are come. You can examine me. Do not go becoming personal. You told me once not by slogans again. Therefore, Sir, I can to be personal. In the same way, understand the plea that the minimum ultimately what is questionable is who that is given should be raised. I can enjoys more by utilising the patronage in understand the plea that those who are an undesirable way. So long as whoever not able to look after themselves, looking runs the Government does not exercise at the cost of living in the present days, the patronage in an undesirable way, it is should get additional perquisites or all right. A reference was made to the facilities. That one can understand, I can sons of Ministers. I was very happy that also understand the argument that the he took the position as to why a Minis- difference between the maximum and the ter's son should suffer if he is a talented minimum should be as man. So long as the patronage 145l Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. I960] (In Private Sector) Bill 1453 little as possible. That I can understand least. On toe contrary if once you put a because, then you are coming to toe ceiling on salaries, a ceiling on incomes is rescue of a man who has been struggling. absolutely necessary and a ceiling on incomes means guaranteeing a minimum SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: Then why income even to those who have Rs. 2 do you not raise the salaries of Gov- crores. It is just like the argument that ernment employees? was advanced in toe Bombay Municipal Corporation, Sir, if you will permit me SHRI K. K. SHAH: That is again to say so. So long as we were there we another question. Please do not try to did not allow toe sons of those who feed on slogans. That has to be com were drawing more than Rs. 250 to pared to national income and many have free secondary education. After other considerations on which experts my friends came into power even that like you can sit together and after was abolished. My friend Dave is examining the pros and cons can come here and he will bear me out. What was to a decision. But nobody will oppose wrong in asking the higher slabs to pay the argument that if the country is in for the education of their children and ■a position to pay, if the country is in utilising the money so recovered for toe a position to come to the rescue of the benefit of the lower class of people? It lowest man, the country must do that may be you might have gone to toe rescue even at the cost of those who are of fifty people but five thousand top class drawing fat salaries and, if necessary, people are benefited. In toe same way by even at the cost of those who have putting a ceiling on salaries you might hoarded money. If it is necessary to prevent a few thousand intelligent take a larger slice, it should be done, people from drawing fat salaries, but you and you can certainly take advantage will go to toe rescue of at least thousands of the taxation structure of this coun who have been paying a higher try. Nobody, I am sure, will op income-tax. If they can secure a pose it. minimum saving of Ri. 35,000 without Sir, ultimately the question is whether paying any taxes, toey would welcome a. we want to have a regulated economy in ceiling on income. Therefore, before this country or a mixed economy—I will such an argument is taken to its logical not say free economy, though my friends conclusion I would only request, "Beware, in the Swatantra Party have been my friends. It is time to ponder. You advocating an entirely free economy. The may not go to the rescue of those whom question is how far in our country, you are fighting." wedded to a mixed economy, the present SHRI SUDHIR GHOSH: Mr. Deputy Bill is in consonance with the concept of Chairman, I have a very few brief mixed economy. If the present Bill is not remarks to make. If I may say so, I think in consonance with the concept of mixed in this honourable House, when we economy, surely a better argument is discuss such a matter as this, it would be necessary to convince us. Therefore, Sir, better and in toe fitness of things if we without taking a lot of time of the House, discussed it in terms of principles instead I would again request my friend, Mr. of introducing names of individuals, how Bhupesh Gupta, to examine whether the many rupees who gets, or toe names of present method of preventing disparities individual firms. I am not in toe least is not sufficient, and if it is not sufficient, interested to defend high salaries paid by he is welcome to suggest better methods. any business firm either in Clive Street, But I am sure that so far as the present Calcutta or in any other street anywhere Bill is concerned, it does not serve any else. But I think as a matter of principle purpose. It creates unnecessary we should avoid mentioning names of complications. It takes away the incentive individuals and firms, and does not help us in toe 1453 Ceilings on Salary [RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1454 [Shri Sudhir Ghosh.] because it seems to invest and what we can possibly save in to be unjust and unfair. We in this House terms' of our own society is a very wide are a privileged group of people, but we gap in our situation, and that gap has to should be very careful about usir.j our be filled obviously by importing capital privilege. Otherwise we might do from wherever we can get it. If we can damage to the prestige and authority of get it from a socialist or a communist Parliament in the eyes of the public. society, by all means we should take it. If we cannot get enough from them, well, Now, Sir, I think We should discuss thii we have to take it from other kinds of measure in terms of principles-and society, whether we agree or disagree policies and the two important basic with the social purposes or the kind of points that aTe involved in this are a political organisations that they believe question of investment -"and-a. question in; that consideration is totally irrelevant. of incentives. We have decided to bring Now, the. principal organiser of the about what we call a socialist society in socialist society in India, that is our this country. And a socialist society doe.s leader, the. Prime Minister, has himself not mean that we should engage ourselves said that he .wants foreign private, capital " in working out a just distribution of to come into this country. It is not that it poverty. The main' purpose of a socialist is a very desirable thing. It is a necessary society is to produce a sufficiently large thing whether you like it or not because volume of wealth so that we can provide otherwise, merely by importing capital our people w!th at least the minimum re- 1 which is public capital owned by quirements of 'civilised human existence Governments in those areas of the world in terms of food, clothes, houses, health, where surplus capital exists, we cannot education,' and so on. Obviously, this possibly bring into this country that wealth- production and the volume of it volume of capital which is necessary to that we require in terms of our situation fill in this gap between saving and requires investment on a massive scale. investment. Therefore, as a matter of state Ev%h a socialist society has to invest policy the Government of this country has capital in order to produce wealth. It may decided with the approval of Parliament interest my hon. friend, Mr. Bhupesh that there is room for investment of Gupta, to know that in the Soviet Union foreign private capital also in our economy. where I have been as he has been, where I We are perfectly entitled to say that we have friends as he has friertds, in the do not want foreign private capital to be Planning Commission, the Gos-plan, invested here at all, but we cannot have it there is a whole-time member whose both * ways. We cannot eat our cake designation is Member in charge of and have it too.. If, on the one hand, we Capital Investment. It sounds rather odd want foreign capital from other countries, that a socialist country has to appoint; a we have to create a state of affairs in man whose principal anxiety is to work which they feel induced to come and invest out the best way of capital use. their capital. As I have said, we are free to say that we do not want it. But if we do Now, Sir, in any kind of society such want it, we cannot at the same time insist as ours it is possible to work out the on creating conditions which forbid them amount of saving that the society can to do so, which they find extremely possibly make in terms of its own discouraging; and one of the things by situation, anp: tne amount of investment which we could prevent foreign capital that is necessary in order to produce the from coming into this country is to approve volume of wealth that we have got to of a measure 3uch as this. I am not saying produce if we are going to achieve our that this measure is necessarily wrong; I social objectives. The difference between am not suggest- what we have got 1455 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1456 ing that it is necessarily good and im- anybody outside that country, it is portant. All that I am saying is if you do possible.for a people to produce a want foreign capital, then do not pass sufficiently large volume of wealth in legislation of this kind. order to give them the material things they need for a civilsed kind of existence. Whether you like their society or not, Then there is the question of .incentives. whether you like their political Now, in a situation such, as ours where we organisation or not, the fact remains that are pressed from all sides for the quick they have done it. Now, we also reject production of such a large volume of that kind of. incentive which they use in wealth, there is a very great deal of the process of producing this wealth confused thinking in the matter of because, according to our ideas, this is. incentives. We talk about a Bocialist also vulgar and crude. The Prime Minister society; we do not always define what we of India rejects it because in the Russian are talking about. A socialist society kind of society, it was not the big fat carrot also is a capitalist society in the sense that dangling in front of the donkey but it was it has got to invest cap.tal. We talk the, fat stick applied on the back of the itaout the Scandinavian countries as a donkey that drove it towards greater and socialist society; we talk of the United greater efforts in producing wealth. Kingdom as a welfare State. All these We reject it as something vulgar. countries are basically capitalist countries, Well, in our kind of society, we have yet but in the light of experience in all parts of to understand what is that something the world in this business of economic which is neither the big stick, nor the big. activities and wealth production, they have fat carrot but that something which is chopped and changed their system and neither of these things and yet is a made all kinds of adjustments in the sufficiently powerful incentive to drive capitalist system in order that it does not human beings to greater endeavour to break down every now and then produce wealth, and that also within a time periodically. Now, Sir, in a so-called limit. Well, I hope, some day the Prime capitalist country such as the United States Minister will give us a discourse to explain of America, through the means of scientific to us what that incentive is. However, industrialism, their society has produced even in the Russian kind of society, they an unprecedented volume of wealth, I am found that the big stick alone did not do not suggesting that we should try and copy the trick; it did not produce the result that it or that it is possible for us to repeat they wanted They did it for a long time the same experience. In that kind of in that Kind of society, but they found society, they dangle a big fat carrot that in any kind of economic or industrial before the nose of the donkey in order unit, in order to produce the necessary to drive it. Now, in our kind of society, the output of industrial wealth, it was kind of society that our Prime Minister necessary to work out a more detailed and wants to build up. we say that according attractive system of incentives. And to our sense of idealism, that is a vulgar when you go to their country as I have kind of incentive in order to drive people done —for instance, I have enjoyed their to greater endeavour and greater production hospitality and visited a very large of wealth. We reject it and at the same number of Russian steel plants in the time when we look at the other kind of Ukraine and elsewhere and I have, with society whi,ch has also demonstrated its a certain amount of care, gone into the capacity" to produce wealth within a details of the salary schemes of these units short period of time; even and also the system of incentives that they have worked out —you will find, when thirty years ago, they were just as you go into the details of it with some care, backward as we are today—they have that basically it is the same thing as a demonstrated that without even asking for capitalistic system of incentives in order to any economic assistance from 1457 Ceilings cm Salary [RAJYA SABHA].(J» Private Sector) Bill 1458 [Shri Sudhir Ghosh.] drive people to an operator of a blooming mill such a» greater and greater efforts to produce the mills we have got in Rourkela, wealth. After I listened to the speech of Jamshedpur or anywhere else, gets 2,000 my friend, Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, I looked to 2,500 roubles per month, -t you take up, at lunch time, some of the records the corresponding Indian in any one of which were given to me by the Russian these posts—I am not talking only about otll-cdals themselves about one of their the public sector—whether it is the public principal economic actvities, namely, the sector or the private sector, there is not a production of steel in their country. And if great deal of difference in salaries. I may for the information of the House give a few facts from this Russian document, it SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: A radio says that in a steel plant—for instance, announcer gets 2,700 roubles per month. the same sort •of the steel plant as Tatas' or Hindustan Steel have in this country—a SHRI SUDHIR GHOSH: But the man whs occupies the position of a General highest salary of all people in that Manager or a D rector gets a salary which country the Academician gets, not even the ranges between 5,000 to 8,000 roubles per Prime Minister. Therefore, I am not month—and a rouble is approximately quarrelling over their standard of values. I Re. 1. Now, in addition to that kind of a am only stating a few bald facts, and I have large salary, they 'have found it necessary no quarrel with the purpose of the Bill to give him other perquisites also. He gets which my friend has brought forward. But an officially provided residence, he has there are certain inescapable facts which his officially provided motor car and when indicate that even in a socialist society, it is that official travels from his steel plant in necessary to work out a system of the nterior of Russia to the headquarters incentives in order to drive men to in Moscow, he is provided -with a special greater endeavour to produce wealth, and saloon attached to the railway train for his that applies not only to workmen —skilled travel from there to Moscow. So, or semi-skilled—but also to the salaried obviously, even in the kind of society classes such as the managerial class in any which does not believe in classes—and as kind of industrial activity. I am not Mr. Bhupesh Gupta kn ws and I know, it is suggesting, therefore, that it is right for any by no means a classless society; of course, individual or firm to pay extraordinarily there is a smaller number of classes than large salaries to certain individuals. It has we have in our k nd of society—in the nothing to do with that, we need not get whole of the steel plant, from the involved in all these unimportant details. General Manager down to the lowest It may be that there are certain cases where worker, there are eight classes of men and things are done which are not proper but eight salary scales, as against 25 or 30 in a that is not the point we are discussing. steel plant in a capitalist society. So, there, it is not true that all men are equal; So, Sir, that was my purpose in making as they say, some men are more equal and a few brief remarks. For instance, in our others are less equal; and even in that steel plants—whether it be the steel kind of society, they have discovered plants in the public sector or the private that it is necessary to provide a system of sector—even in the Tatas who are a incentives so that you can produce the capitalist organisation in the usual results. From the topmen if you go to the terminology, a private enterprise, nobody other people lower down, you will find that gets the same kind of salary as is paid by the Chief Engineer gets a salary of 4,250 a socialist society for the same type of to 5,000 roubles per month. The work. Deputy Director gets 3,400 to 4,500 roubles per month. Even a shift foreman Now, the point is, as I was telling you, gets 2,800 roubles and I the purpose of a socialist society 1459 Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960] (In Private Sector) Bill 1460 is not to distribute poverty in.a just ■and Even if you have to pay that rate 01 equitable manner; the purpose is to salary you will find that the result will produce as much wealth as possible and justify it; your costs will be less and not try and give each man a reasonable share more, because of effective management. of it so that he can have a civilised kind Today we are not at all sure whether the of existence. In fact, I Government steel plants, in spite of the would say it should be the 4 miserly salaries that they pay, in spite of y.M. other way round; instead of the low salaries and inadequate salaries cutting down people's salaries I that they pay to the people at the top, are would advocate that in some cases in this going to produce any profits for years to country there is very good and legitimate come. It does not mean that by saving ground for giving better salaries than these few thousands or few lakhs of what our people get, something similar to rupees you are going to bring dawn the what they get in Soviet Russia, for cost of production per ton of steel or are instance, for the same kind of work. We going to make more profits either in the all know that our steel plants in the public private sector or in the public sector. sector have got into all kinds of troubles, Well, you are not. On the other hand you and one particular cause is the great will find that because of ineffective and shortage of people with the requisite level inadequate management talent your costs of managerial calibre; and they do not get are very much higher than they should be. the people with the necessary managerial And this is the answer to the argument calibre because they insist on using civil that my friend Mr. Gurupada Swamy was servants for those jobs, whom they get at putting forward. It is not necessarily an a rather low price. They take a man; they intelligent thing to pay a men less than actually did take a man from the Ministry his services deserve. of Rehabilitation, a poor man who was looking after the evacuee property left These are the brief remarks that I had behind by the Muslims in India, who had to make. We also heard some idealistic gone away to Pakistan. From that job they arguments about how the Prime Minister pitch-forked him into the position of the accepts a salary of Rs. 2,250 only. I think general manager of ■the steel plant at that i3 totally irrelevant here. A man does Bhilai. Another man who was Secretary not become Prime Minister for the sake for Agriculture, Fisheries, Animal of a salary; a man becomes Prime Minis- Husbandry and Forests in the Bengal ter or Minister for the sake of power, Government was again pitch-forked from which is a greater source of satisfaction mat job to the job of the general m&nager than money. In the same way we who of the steel plant at Durgapur, and natu- have come to this Parliament who are not rally, they find that the management of such high people as Ministers or Prime these plants is ineffective, that they do not Ministers. Why have we come here? Not produce the results. Well, whom should for the sake of the paltry salary that we they blame? They should blame get here. I used to be an official in a very themselves for having employed men senior managerial position in a without the necessary level of managerial Government steal plant. Well, I gave up a calibre. It is not that men with the salary which was more than five times necessary managerial calibre do not exist the salary taat I get here. I did so not out of any deaire to make self-sacrifice but in this country. My friend very rightly because I felt that I would have more pointed out that those people are not satisfaction here. I calculated very available at that kind of salary and, carefully what this position and this therefore, evt>n if you have to pay, for paltry salary would give me, and 1 find it the sake of argument, say, Rs. 10,000 per gives me a much greater sense of month to a man who can effectively satisfaotion, of a different kind, than what manage a million-ton or a two million-ton a large salary would give steel plant. I do not say it is too large a salary. 1461 Ceilings on Salary [RAJYA SABHA] (In Private Sector) Bill 1462 fShri Sudhir Ghosh.] me; it is not the hon. Mr. Bhupesh Gupta can pull because of any sense of self-sacrifice. down ceilings everywhere in our country. Here I have so many kinds of satisfaction But he may hot probably be aware that the including the satisfaction of listening to remedy that he suggests is worse than the the speeches of my friend, Mr. Bhupesh disease. If really the ceilings have got to Gupta. His tenacity, the length at which be brought down I am sure human in- he speaks and his devotion to speech- genuity will invent ways and means how making, all these are a great source of best to see that the teal incomes go satisfaction to me, and I hope I shall underground. We must be thankful to this continue to enjoy that satisfaction for a big business that they are at least now long time to come. coming forward with a declaration of the salaries which to him may appear to be on So these are the few remarks that. I the very high side but which to me, with had to offer. all the figures that he was quoting, of Rs. 5,000 and Rs. 6,000, yet appear to be (Interruption.) precious little for the tremendous service they are doing to expand the volume of That is what I say. I hope we shall be their business turn-over in this country. together for a long time and I shall have Fantastic comparisons were being drawn the privilege of listening to the very between the Government and big enlightening speeches of my hjn. friend, business, between the Prime Minister and Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, which I always the salaried servants. Reference to the enjoy. Prime Minister of India and the tremendous potentialities which he has To sum up what I say is this, that the got to render service to the nation need real objective before society is to produce not have been brought in here by way of wealth and not to bother about trivialities comparison with the emoluments which as to who in a particular firm gets how these managerial personnel earn in big many rupees. Maybe there are some cases business in our country. Of all these where there is injustice, and they should people, particularly the British elements be righted. But this is totally irrelevant in against whom he was running such a a society where our main purpose is to terrific tirade this morning, I do not know work out ways whereby to produce a* why they should have become his eye- quickly as possible as large a volume of sore. He was trying to describe how they wealth as possible in order that we can seemed to be flourishing in their achieve our social objectives. limousines in certain colonies of Calcutta, how they lived in air-conditioned SHHI N. M. ANWAR (Madras): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, while moving this chambers and things like that. On the Bill, The Ceilings On Salary (in Private contrary, Sir, I would rather wish that Sector) Bill, my good friend, Mr. more and more of our countrymen should Bhupesh Gupta, as usual, seized this come to have an income to lead a decent opportunity to run a tirade against big standard of living to the glory of our business, and as I was listening to many country. of his observations this morning, I was amused when he was taking up cudgels SHM BHUPESH GUPTA: They get against British big business. Believe me, run over by their cars. Mr. Deputy Chairman, I was struck with SHRI N. M. ANWAR: What I would wonder at what he really means here by an attack against big business when beseech you to consider is that these business houses have been there in the actually the purpose of this Bill is intended to reduce the salaries of the field for long, and the Government of managerial personnel employed in the India have committed themselves to invite their investment in our country, private sector. I am sure, with his tremendous capacity, 1463 Ceilings on Salary [ 0 DEC. 1980 ] ■ (In Private Sector) Bill 1464 and they have came here and are trying to legislation here, we could see that the invest in this country, which definitely in numerous elements, our national ele- the present state of circumstances should ments, which are being employed in appear to them quite irksome in many these houses are ensured much better ways. Yet they have undertaken this emoluments than what they today enjoy. venture and have come over six thousand Sir, as I said, the best of our talents are miles away. And after all the salaries to being taken away into this big business. which objection is being taken here by That was the point that Mr. Bhupesh the hon. Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, from the Gupta was making again and again. standard of their own national income Believe me, Mr. Deputy Chairman, that appear to be not very high. We know, Sir, is something where the imagination runs that from the United Kingdom, wild. The best of the talents in the wherefrom these businessmen come, country are still being drafted 'into public even the lowest income does not fall services. I am sure the high salaries to below Rs. 750 and some of their big which he was making frequent references executives are earning probably twice as here are being paid only to such of the high as the salaries today they are entitled top executives who are a handful in this here in this big business. Now, how many country. But at the point of recruitment, I of them are there? They are just few and believe, the public services today offer far between. In this country of 400 much better terms, nof only much better millions, I do not think there should be salaries but even that permanent tenure even as many as ten thousand who are which is the lure of public services. earning such fabulous salaries as Mr. Bhupesh Gupta imagines. Sir, whatever might have been said What should be our approach to the about the generation that has gone by, question? When I say this, I do not for a that people were not being attracted moment mean to suggest that we should towards big business before, but today the have growing disparities in our earnings. conditions, as we see now, are such that We must see, as I said, particularly in the even the best of elements are being context of a socialistic pattern of society drafted into public services as they are that we try to narrow the differences being drafted into big business. But I between the highest and the lowest could imagine that if there are incomes that are being earned in this malpractices on the part of big business in country. But to look at this problem, as trying to draft men that belong to the the honourable Mr. Bhupesh Gupta has official section in our country it is a done, is only to look at it from the other malpractice about which we have got to end of the telescope. Rather than trying to express our severest condemnation, even reduce the ceiling, I would wish that he if it be that these people are being drafted would devote h:s energy more and more from high places of influence to in the direction of trying to raise the supplement the affluence that they enjoy. flooring. That would be conferring a boon Well, Sir, that is a point on which I agree upon the millions in this country for will him and we have got to see that such whom, particularly in these days of high abuses of power politics are not allowed cost of living, it would mean quite a to be encouraged. difference in their life. We should raise their minimum as high as possible. Sir, what do we see in this big Sir, with regard to this big business, business? I have got a little experience of these British houses, I can well imagine it. I have seen many of these people now that by creating a climate of public engaged in big business in this country. I opinion in this country and also, if have been to some of their own countries possible, by bring ng some piece of of origin, particularly the United Kingdom. I have seen 1465 Ceilings on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1466
[Shri N. M. Anwar] that they feel it even then were earning as much a* Rs. loathsome to come all the way six 3,000. Today with the rise in the national thousand miles to India. Particularly after income, in this developing economy, the exist of the British power, even with where opportunities have come to them the temptation of Rs. 5,000 or Rs. 6,000 plentifully, their turnover has multiplied or Rs. 7,000 a month today, take it Mr. many times, even beyond their Bhupesh Gupta . . . imagination. When they have helped to increase those earnings for their concerns, SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: It is a it is but right and proper that they should twelve hours' flight. be entitled to higher salaries which they are being given. I would, therefore, plead SHRI N. M. ANWAR: But still people that it will be much better for us if we have got to abandon their hearths and could ask and create a climate of public homes in order to search for a living here, opinion in this country to see that this big and I am sure that these people, in spite of business do not exploit the Indian very high emoluments as we imagine it to elements which are now in their be, are not half as happy as we think. employment but try to provide for them They would rather prefer to have even Rs. better facilities, better allowances, and 2,000 or Rs. 3,000/- in their own homes, also see that more opportunities are made if it comes to that. That is how some of available to the Indian element to get into the best elements in the country do not higher posts. I am told that it is something wish to venture over-seas. This is a thing which is common all over the British which I came to know when I went to the business in this country today that in spite United Kingdom. People are not of certain directives that have gone to enamoured of coming over to this country them, the Government of India have not for drawing this amount of Rs. 5,000 or been able to ensure prospects for the Rs. 6,000 as the mover of the Bill said. Indian element in Bri'.ish business; they But, Sir, there is one danger which I are still being kept far below in their should like to bring to your notice and establishments and only very few are which Mr. Bhupesh Gupta should equally being promoted to the officer cadre. In realise and it is this. If we are going to see that respect, I believe, the behaviour of that such heavy salaries are not allowed the British big business is not fair to our for the executives in the big business, n country. I think in that direction the they will resort to ways a d means to con- Government can exert pressure on them to ceal the income. At least at present when see that a certain percentage of key posts they declare their high salaries, we are are ensured for the Indian element so that assured that a good portion of these people who have accepted to enter into salaries will come into our national British big business can hope to retire exchequer by way of taxation, and we from the key post* which are now being have got to see that when they render offered only to the British element. Sir, I these accounts, these salaries should be a think that way when we shall be ble to matter for which our country should feel a thankful that these people are not trying bring about eventually the nationalisation to conceal this income by trying to limit of this big business, also a certain element their salaries. of rationalisation, they will ensure the presence of more and more of our Sir, we speak of a sum of Rs. 5,000 or personnel in that big business— people Rs. 6,000 as something pretty too high. who will be trained in the art of running But I had discussions with some of these these houses which will also become people, the British element, in the big readily equipped with the necessary business some fifteen years ago, before resources to fill in the vacuum which the the transfer of power. These people or British will leave. For that reason I hope, their predecessors and I am sure my good friend Mr. Bhupesh Gupta 1467 Ceilings on Salary [ 9 DEC. 1880 ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1468 will also devote his energy to see that we the House and to say that these high fight for such causes where the Indian salaries should be brought down does not element will try to profit more and more appear to me to be the way of a big mind. from any arrangement that we can make Little minds can be expected to be for their promotion. thinking of such measures of parsimony. This is false economy when you have As for our own big business, which such high officers in big business belongs to our nationals, there is need for entrusted with turn-over running into a great probe into these big houses. Most crores of rupees and asking them to of these big business houses seem to be limit their income not to Rs. 5,000 or Rs. suffering much worse when we compare 6,000 but to Rs. 3,000 and Rs- 2,000. them with the British houses. At least Maybe you may make a little saving of Rs. there high salaries are being given to the 2,000 every month but you do not know executives but here we do not see even the harm that you may do by leading them such payment of higher salaries to suppress or conceal the income and it because under the managing agency may do more damage to our country and system, there are ever so many to our national exchequer. I would subterfuges whereby the real income rather wish that we let them go and is camouflaged in thousand ways. prosper more. Let them try to expand There is a disease in our national character their activities in all areas because our which seems to have taken hold of big country needs investments in a business houses all over the country, with developing economy for many years to very few or no exceptions. Much of the come but with these high salaries which earnings go underground. They are they are now earning, let the national concealed from the national exchequer. exchequer, under the slab system of our They are denied to the Government, they income-tax, try to profit and take a lion's are denied to the personnel under them share of it. The larger the salaries they and they are denied to the cause of our earn, the greater is the share of the planning. There I can imagine that we national exchequer. We must welcome are sinning much more than being sinned this. We must be happy about it. against. It is the nationals of our country Particularly when they are honest to who are in charge of big business whose themselves and honest to the moral code has to come in for a Government in declaring their salaries as tremendous improvement. We are high as they earn, to that extent we behaving very badly. Here I admire should be feeling really grateful and not the British executives that declare a try to run them down because they are not return of big incomes. I know that even the social lepers who go about giving there, they have certain recourse te> false false returns of salaries and try to use the invoices and transfer of foreign money for expanding their business. The exchange out of the country but when real social lepers are those who all is said and done, that is quite negligible unfortunately belong to this country, who but what the nationals in our country who are captains of our industries today are now in charge of big business are do- earning millions and billions of rupees ing is something very horrible. It is these and concealing this income from the people who seem to come to the powers exchequer and from the country. It that be who seem to use their sons for big is against them that we-have to take up business, and seek many favours and cudgels and I am sure that if this Bill could exploit the resources of our country to provoke public opinion or if this Bill could their own advantage and to the detriment focus the attention of the country and the of this country. community against the misbehaviour of big business in some places, this really I can well imagine Mr. Gupta having a would have been a great achievement in tirade against big business but simply to itself. Therefore, let me say one bring forward this Bill before 1469 Ceilings on Salary [RAJYA SABHA] (In Brivate Sector) Bill 1470 [Shri N. M. Anwar.] salaries paid? The with the mam objectives of the am, and hon. friend who preceded me made a the Bill being not very practible, I would very eloquent speech and said that request him to withdraw the Bill; still I particularly in private enterprises, we wish that the Government may do need incentives. The higher the salary, something. It is good that the the greater the promotion that you give Government's attention has been drawn to the greater is the incentive to bring out doing something more in the direction of the best in them. After all, the reducing the inequalities. In our Third responsibility that these people carry, FiveYear Plan we have said that the even in the limited field of private inequalities must be reduced and there is enterprise, where every moment they a Chapter dealing with it. In another place have to be confronted with the problem I had Said that the Government must set of money or profit and loss, is something up some machinery to investigate and which I think is really a thing for which find out the inequalities and have some big business has got to give machinery a permanent machinery, some encouragement by paying higher salaries. Committee of a statutory type, which It is not for nothing that these high may look into this and which may salaries are paid to them. So, I believe implement this part of the matter. I may that Shri Gupta will do well to withdraw quote from the Taxation Enquiry this Bill and try to direct his energies Commission report itself. That there against the real problem of finding out should be big salaries for creating how the money earned in this country is incentives is really not a very reasonable concealed from the national exchequer. or a logical thing. There he has to look for enemy number one. These high salaried officials are in I will quote a few words from th« effect doing a much more glorious Report itself; service to the national exchequer than the hon. Member here. ."The disparity in consumption levels SHRI GOPIKRISHNA VIJAIVAR- prevalent at present in- this country is a GIYA (Madhya Pradesh): Mr. Deputy matter of common observation and Chairman, Sir, Shri Bhupesh Gupta has there can be no doubt about its just come back from Soviet Russia after demoralising effect on the large masses attending probably the All Communist of workers -in ithe country as regards Party Conference, the World Conference, their willingness to accept higher tax but he must have seen there already the burdens and yet work harder. The disparities in Russia and he must not have disincentive effect of higher taxation brought forward this Bill but probably he on the will to work on the part of the is piloting this Bill because it is an old higher income group is generally Bill introduced by him and therefore he is exaggerated. There is need for the piloting simply the old idea. The latest upper income groups to adjust position might be that there Are themselves to the reductions in money disparities even in Russia. From the rewards that the changing social and Congress side I would say that our economic conditions of ithe country Government is already committed to a necessitate. It is unrealistic to stress the socialist society to an egalitarian society disincentive effect of income-tax and our Government is already seeing to progression on the upper income it that there may not be disparities and groups, while the tax system calls upon that the inequalities are decreased. Our the lower income groups who Government is already committed to it constitute the masses of the country to that there should be no concentration of contribute an increasing portion of wealth and that for the sake of planning, their meagre incomes. It must be we must have more austerity in our coun- remembered that even with the present try. Therefore, I generally sympathise comparatively high rates of tax, the 147l Ceilings on Salary [9 DEC. 1960] (In Private Sector) Bill 1472 range of inequality between the disposable of reducing disparities and I am only drawing incomes of the few and the many is wider attention to this on this occasion and I say than in many countries where the rates of that we must look into this question very taxation on higher incomes are in fact, seriously. This is attracting the attention of lower. The fixing of a ceiling on personal the country and all these disparities in incomes on the basis of a reasonable incomes must be further reduced and we must multiple of the per capita or per family put more taxes on those who are drawing national income is a matter to which we more incomes. have given much thought and it is our view
Here there is a deep Communist game hidden context of ours when greater production is the in the Bill. He is trying to pull down the dire need, he should have been pleased to ceilings oi our abodes, of the abodes of recommend competent personnel for both the democracy, by his attempts to impose ceilings sectors. He thinks that public sector alone is on salaries or employees in the private sector. going io save the country and not this 'cor- What is the objective of the Bill? What are rupting' private sector. the reasons that prompted Mr. Bhu-pesh Gupta to bring forward a Bill of this kind? He AM HON. MEMBER: He is the undertaker has mentioned them in the Statement of of the private sector. Objects and Reasons. 1 would like to refer to what he has said in his own words in a little SHKI N. SRI RAMA REDDY: There, fore, detail. He says: the very objective looks to me as it it is a deep Communist game. Then let us not forget that "There are many private concerns which the method of the Communists is also very pay exorbitantly high salaries to certain deep. Wherever necessary, they would not fail categories of their managerial personnel. to drive the thin end of the wedge; they would These high salaries not only tend to widen be the first persons to create troub e wherever the disparities in income and run counter to necessary, to create distortion, to create the directive principles of the State policy dissensions, discard, hatred and envy. This is as embodied in our Constitution but are the : philosophy to which my friend. Mr. also a corrupting influence and they stand Bhupesh Gupta, subscribes and therefore it is in the way of availability of competent no wonder that he uses words like these. That is persons for public undertakings where the with regard to the objectives. salaries ai"e comparatively less." Now, coming to the name, how harmless it I would like the House to note the expression looks; how innocent it looks. He says: 'corrupting influence'. The use of the word 'corrupting' is most irrelevant unless he wants "This Act may be called the Ceilings on by using this word to make a sweeping Salary (in Private Sector) Act, 1960. remark about the functioning of all the private films or the entire private sector. Unless he It sounds very simple; it looks as if it means means that the entire system is corrupt in its nothing at all. It looks as if it only means operation he could not have used the word doing justice by the humbler type of people, 'corrupting'. If his intention was to say that the doing justice by the low-paid people. It is not private sector has been competing with the like that. Now, let us see. He has given the public sector by drawing away the technical pro-cedure for fixing salaries. He says: personnel or experienced staff by offering more salaries than the public undertakings, he 'As soon as may be, after the should have used the word 'competitive' eommeneement of this Act, every private instead of 'corrupting'. Sir, his game is very concern, firm or industry shall determine deep. Therefore, let us beware what his and fix as prescribed in section 2, the intentions are in this Bill. maximum salary in respect of every person under their employ and may review at such Then in the same breath he does not fail to intervals as it may think fit, the rates of extol the public undertakings. He then goes salaries so fixed." on to say that they stand in the way of availability of competent persons for public In the Statement of Objects and Reasons he undertakings. Whether it is public refers only to the managerial personnel and undertaking or private undertaking, in this the implication would appear to be that only particular people with 1481 CeUingt on Salary [ RAJYA SABHA ] (In Private Sector) Bill 1482 [Shri N. Sri Rama Reddy.] very high question of representation of the leader salaries or people in the executive posts of the Communist Party. Then will start would be affected. That is the impression kicking up of rows; troubles start; strikes he gives there but when he comes to the start; closures start and then lathi charges prscedure for fixing salaries he says, that and so on and so forth. Then he will the salary in respect of every person blame the Government and would tell the under the employ of the companies shall employees, 'look here, I was only be fixed. He does not want to exclude fighting for your salaries and to limit the even a single person. He wants the salaries of somebody else but the discord to be spread right from the Government has come in and lathi- charged you all and have taken to all bottom-most man to the topmost man. He wants that everybody should start sorts of violence'. This is the game quarrelling and therefore he says that hidden here and we should not fail to every person under the employ of the notice that. Then after the committee company shall come within the purview there will be subcommittees and after of this procedure. Again he is not that again subcommittees and it goes on. satisfied by merely asking the flraij to And what are they to do? They will hold determine the salaries of all their inquiries and advise and this game would employees. Usually it is the Managing seep through to the entire personnel. Director or the Directors of the Company who fix the salaries for the various SHRI BHUPESH GUPTA: I think we grades of people they employ. That is can adjourn now. Let the game be what usually happens but he does not continued on the next day. want that thing. If you refer to clause 3 0') (a) you will find that he wants that the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You company should appoint a comrruUee to will continue on the next day. The hold inquiries and advise it in this behalf House stands adjourned till 11 A.M. with sub-committees for different em- on Monday. ployments. Now, what is the purpose of this committee? It would only lead to The House then adjourned at trouble. Who will form this committee? five of the clock till eleven of Then there will arise the question of the clock on Monday, the 12th representation; then the December, 1960.
GMGIPND—RS—767 RS—16-1-61—550.