Interview with Aurélio Manave
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Aluka is a not-for-profit initiative dedicated to creating and preserving a digital archive of materials about and from the developing world. For more information about Aluka, please see http://www.aluka.org Interview with Aurélio Manave
Author/Creator Manave, Aurélio (interviewee); de Carvalho, Sol (inteviewer) Contributor Filipe, Eléusio dos P.V. (translator) Date 2003 Resource type Interviews Language English Subject Coverage (spatial) Mozambique, Tanzania, United Republic of Coverage (temporal) 1936 - 1975 Source Samora Machel Documentation Center Rights By kind permission of Anibal and Aurelia Manave, and the Samora Machel Documentation Centre (SARDC). Description This interview with Aurélio Manave, a long-time friend of Samora Machel who served as director of FRELIMO health programs during the armed struggle, covers their early time together as nurses in the colonial medical system in Maputo (then Lourenço Marques), as well as descriptions of their escapes from Mozambique to exile in Tanzania, and early years of the armed struggle.
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http://www.aluka.org Interview with Aurélio Manave
Translated from the Portuguese by Eléusio dos P.V. Filipe,
Doctoral Candidate in Spanish & Portuguese, University of Minnesota
Reviewed by Jim Johnson, Interdisciplinary Center for the Study of Global Change, U of MN
Mr. Manave, can you tell us a little bit about your life? Where were you born? Where did you work? How did you join [the liberation struggle]? How did you meet Samora Machel?
Yes, I was born on 21 February 1936 in the locality of Massiene, in the administrative post of Chongoene, district of Xai-Xai, Gaza province. I grew up there and I attended primary school in the same area. I finished the third grade of complementary education as they called it.
Blacks students had to attend primary school designed for blacks called indigenous education (ensino indígena) and then they had to attend primary school called complimentary education (ensino complimentar). So, on average black students had to attend 6 years of primary education.
Then, I came to complete my fourth grade in Lourenço Marques in 1949. Since then, I never left this city. I grew up, and after I had finished fourth grade, I took the admission exams. I wanted to continue with my studies; I wanted to go to secondary school [liceu] or to commercial school where it is now called industrial school along 24 de Julho Avenue. During that time, the school was called Escola Técnica Sá da Bandeira [Technical School Sá da Bandeira]. After finishing my fourth grade and the admission exams, I went back to Massiene where I went to work at Tipografia Anglicana of the Anglican Church [typography of the Anglican Church]. That’s where I started to work; I worked in the printing-office as a typographer and compositor. I left the typography in the end of 1951 when I was admitted at the Railways Company. I had a contract with the railways company; then, I came back to the city to work at Lourenço Marques Railways Company. I worked there as … what did they call it? Yes, I worked as overseer in the Exploration Division[Divisão de Exploração]. I worked there for some months and the engineer João Filipe with whom I worked became interested in my work and hired me to work as overseer in the projects that he had outside the company. But I was still an employee of the railways company. That’s the way they did things. I went to live in his residence; I was given a place in those railways company houses. I stayed there and continued working for the company. But I was not very interested in that type of job. Since I was a young boy, I always wanted to work in a hospital and take care of people. I liked to work in the health services. In 1952, while still working for the company, I also went to work at the local office of the Jornal Diário de Moçambique [daily newspaper] in the afternoons. I was not a railways company employee, I worked in the projects of engineer João Filipe and he allowed me to find another part time employment. So, I worked in the afternoons in the local office of the Jornal Diário de Moçambique. At the same time, I prepared the paperwork to submit to the Direcção dos Serviços de Saúde [Directorate of Health Services] so that I could attend the school of nursing in 1952. I succeeded in getting all the paperwork and I submitted them. The result came out in February; I think the results were released in February and I was invited in March. I was one of the first to be called because I was one of the top students on the list. So, I went to the school of nursing in 1953. That’s how I got into nursing school. I attended the two year course; the first year was in 1953 and the second year of the supplementary course [curso auxiliar] was in 1954. That’s where I met comrade President Samora.
Had Samora been admitted earlier?
He had been admitted earlier. As I said, he would have finished his course in 1953. Since he complained a lot and wanted to be respected and didn’t allow himself to be looked down upon by his teachers and professors, he ended up failing and his fellow colleagues and friends moved ahead. Some of them include Mondlane and Ernesto Lemos. They were from the same class. António Mondlane works at the laboratory of chemical analysis. They all started together, but he failed. Instead of passing his course in 1953, he finished the course in 1954 with me and other students. As I said he was the top student in the assistant course [curso auxiliar].
Did he have problems with his teacher in particular or did he just complain a lot?
He complained a lot. He always complained. He complained about real issues and he thought that things were not going in the right direction. He also complained about the nurses. The nurses were required to produce annual reports about the students who worked with them and students would pass or fail because of the content of such reports. So, in our school the nurses said, “Ah, that’s a stubborn and recalcitrant student … “ and they added other damaging information on him. There were some occasions when physicians wanted to hit him with an x-ray plate and he held and shook their hands. He didn’t hesitate a second. This behavior made some people afraid of him. But this attitude also had effects on his course.
How did he react when he failed the course?
He was not affected because he was confident that he knew as much as his fellow students. He knew that tests were not the only thing which would make him pass or fail. In fact, tests were not the only way to evaluate students. We had theory and practical lessons. We would go to the hospital to work with physicians in assisting patients. This was our practical experience which was not difficult at all. It didn’t last long to learn to do the job. However, it took more time to learn the theoretical issues. So, getting the practical experience was faster than learning the theory. He knew that his fellow students had passed, but he also knew that they were not better than he was. Since he wanted to finish his training as a nurse, he was patient enough to repeat the same course in the following year. It was under these circumstances, and when I passed my first year class, I ended up attending the second year course with Samora Machel who was repeating the same course. I was in my first year of nursing school between 1953 and 1954. So, it was in 1954 when Samora and I attended the same class. Since he knew everything, it was easy for him to pass the course and he became the top student in the class. He didn’t have any other problems. The teachers were not bitter with him anymore. In fact, they didn’t hold any hate or grudges against students. Since he had proved to know what they taught him, they passed him.
[Question:……..}
Yes he developed. I was a member of the group where Samora was the boss. He was the boss of the group that also included António Mondlane, and the late Salvador Machaieie. They were much older, and I was the youngest. The group also included Francisco Mutambe, Alberto Mapapá and Sebastião Cuna. We all belonged to the same group in the dorm. We also lived together in the dorm.
Did your group represent the United States, Vietnam, or Zambia? We were told that there were some groups reflecting different political orientations.
You know I’m not very sure what the name of my group with comrade Samora was. There were some people that called themselves one thing one day and the next day, they would call themselves something else. Some called themselves the group of Mao Tsé Tung, others called themselves Winston Churchill, and others referred to themselves as Nasser. (Laughs) They gave themselves all these names. In our group, we discussed politics. We closely followed the Vietnam War, the struggles in China and nationalist China, the Korean War; I’m not sure if it was South or North Korea. During that time, we didn’t make such distinctions of north and south. So, our group supported the struggles of these countries. However, the issue that we liked to discuss much of the time was boxing. Comrade Samora was a fanatic of boxing; he knew the most famous heavyweight boxers of the world including the first one to become champion. He knew everybody. He had newspaper cuttings of major heavyweight boxers. We were subscribers of the Brazilian magazine Cruzeiro which had so much information about international games, especially boxing matches. He practiced a lot and every morning he skipped his skipping-rope. But, he didn’t like to punch the sack. There were also other comrades who had a sack hanging in a place where they practiced boxing. He preferred to skip his skipping-rope. We spent much of our time practicing boxing. There is a place in what it is now called Estrela Vermelha where boxing matches were held. These matches took place in the evening. They also involved South African boxers and a famous guy called George Taffoi, and I think he was Chinese. There were other Mozambican fighters, for example, one of them was Bila and another boxer from Inhambane. I forgot the name of this last one. This was the sport that Samora liked and he always went to see boxing matches in the evening in that place. Whenever there was an international heavyweight boxing match, we went there to watch. There at the shooting-range (or shooting-gallery) where the bank is now located, there was a very big restaurant where people listened to running commentary of Portuguese league football (soccer) matches that involved teams such as Benfica, Sporting, Porto, and others. We would listen to running commentary of soccer matches in that restaurant. But, he didn’t appreciate football (soccer) very much. He loved boxing more than football. On the wall of his bedroom close to his bed he had posted newspaper cuttings of world famous heavyweight boxers. We used to go to see these boxing matches. That’s why we ended up nicknaming him Jack Damson after a boxer with that name. Jack Damson’s punch was very impressive and Samora would get very excited watching Damson punching. (Laughs) … He always liked to watch boxing, it was the sport he liked the most. One of the things he also liked was dancing, especially with fellow nurses. We as nurses organized dances and he liked to participate in them. Among the nicknames that we gave ourselves some were “ChouEnLai;” what is the name of the soviet leader? it was Brezhnev. There was a fellow student called Stalin and another had a nickname of a Chinese leader, Mao Zedong. These were some of the nicknames. There was a fellow student with the nickname of Dan Malan from apartheid South Africa. This was the way we did things.
Mr. Manave, what was the life of students like? Did you have classes in the morning and afternoon, or did you have to go for practical training in the sick-wards?
In the morning, we only had a lab class because medical analyses were done in the early morning. During medical appointments, some patients were required to have blood tests and we extracted some blood for medical analysis. We would examine the blood samples under the microscope. There was a couple working in the laboratory: the man was called Dr. Mário de Andrade and he was also a professor and his wife was Dr. Josina Ribeiro. The rest of the classes were in the afternoons and in the morning we worked in the sick- wards.
Where did these conversations take place?
They took place in the barracks (dormitories); we had work shifts. These conversations took place after our work shifts or when we were off duty or when we were working at night. There were some people who worked while others were off duty. It was not everybody who worked in shifts; those who had finished the course, they didn’t quite have to work in shifts. They remained in the barracks and they only went out to work in the morning. We also read newspapers because we were subscribers to the Daily Mail which was located at then Casa Auberry. The train would arrive early in the morning bringing newspapers from South Africa. There were no complications during this time and this was before the beginning of the war in Angola and other complicated issues. It was in that place where we bought and read newspapers particularly those sections that dealt with international affairs. We would get more information about foreign affairs especially wars. …
What were your weekends like?
During the weekends, we would go out for a walk. Samora’s girlfriend had a house in the area between Mafalala and Angola Avenue where she lived. Many of us would go out for a walk. Since I am an Anglican, I would go to the Anglican Church of Maxaquene which is located at 24 Julho Avenue and next to FNAC supermarket. After the church service we would come back to the dorms. Sometimes, we would stay in front of the hospital; this was before it was transformed into what it is today. There was a pharmacy and a corridor in front of the hospital. There were some benches where we would sit and talk. Sometimes, we would go for a walk in the gardens. What is the name of that garden that is located where it is now called Parque dos Continuadores? I think it was called Cabral… it had a name…
José Cabral was the name of the garden.
Yes, indeed. It was called José Cabral. That’s where we would go when we were off duty or when we wanted to study. We would go there to prepare for afternoon classes. When we were off duty, we would go there to study and talk, and that was it. Sometimes we would go to Costa do Sol where we would have lunch. We would have lunch in that restaurant; it’s a very old restaurant with good service. It served very big prawns, salads, and other sea food. We used to go to that restaurant, but not in groups. It always depended on the people available or if they were off duty.
What about the girls?
No, no, it was not like that. We always avoided going to the cinema with girls. But, we would go dancing with them. We flirted with them and had relationships with fellow nurse students inside the hospital; we flirted on that hospital’s grounds up until the time when we had to show up for work. When we were busy, we didn’t have the time to flirt or get together. Women had their own dorm on one side and we had our dorm on the other side. Now, if we had free time and someone had a girlfriend, and if he wanted he could take his girlfriend to his/her relatives’ house. If they wanted, they could go out for a walk in the garden (now Tunduro Garden), to the cinema or other places. Each of us had his own girlfriend. For five years I dated a girl who would become my wife. Comrade Samora was our counselor during those years until we married. He was always our counselor. There is no question about that, there is no question about it.
Where did you go to dance?
You mean dancing? We liked going to balls organized by the association…
The balls that you participated in, where did they take place, where did you go to dance?
We went to the Associação Mútua dos Indígenas [Mutual Association of Indigenous] in this building. First, we started with dances organized by nurses themselves. At the end of every year, we organized a ball called Baile dos Enfermeiros [nurses ball]; it was very popular. These balls attracted and involved students from Liceu Salazar [Salazar Secondary School], Liceu António Eanes [António Eanes Secondary School], the commercial school, and these balls involved male and female nurses and students who were undergoing training as nurses in the hospital. It was to these events that each of us brought his girlfriend with him. Obviously, during such events we also met other girls who were students in the Liceus Salazar and António Eanes, and the commercial school. João Badudine and his orchestra, and the Djambo Orchestra, which was very famous in those days, performed for these balls. In fact, Orchestra Djambo was the most famous to the extent that military officers invited them to perform in their premises.
Were only black nurses involved in the balls? Was there any mixing of races?
There were also white nurses. We nurses were able to build a long-standing relationship among ourselves and we strove to fight against tribalism and racism. We started this fight in the hospital because there were white and black students who studied together. After training, the nurse was placed in Nampula without anything, but they would not suffer because they had colleagues to support them. As long as the nurse arrived in his/her new place of work and introduced himself/herself, he/she had new colleagues. White and black nurses attended balls at the end of year. During our stay in the dorm, we developed a sense of humility. We developed very good relationships. However, most of the white students attended the standard or European course. So, they never stayed in the dorm. We blacks and a few mulattoes stayed in the dorm. But many of the mulattoes stayed in their own homes. That’s why we blacks fought to enroll in the European course so that by the time we finished the course we would be eligible to practice as assistant nurses with a reasonable salary. That’s it.
Did you end up participating in those meetings and parties organized by the Núcleo dos Estudantes Africanos [NESAM] ? Did you have any contact with those young people?
We only had contacts with young students; we were not members of that organization
Didn’t they invite you to be members of the organization?
No, no, we were not invited to be members. Although we studied in the evening, we were not on their level.
Were they much younger?
Most of them were much younger. For instance, I got to know Comrade President Chissano, Mocumbi when they were much younger. They would come to our dorm or casern when they were returning from secondary school. We knew these young people; they would come to our dorm because they knew us from Gaza. Chissano’s parents are my godparents; they would come to the dorm to talk and have something to eat and then go on to their homes. Sometimes when they didn’t have classes, they would come to our dorm. Mocumbi would also come to see us. I knew them very well, but we never participated in their meetings. Personally, I didn’t participate in any meeting. Probably Samora participated in one of the meetings without my knowledge. As far as I know, Samora was never a member of the Associação dos Antigos Estudantes [Secundários de Moçambique- Núcleo dos Estudantes Secundários de Moçambique –NESAM]. I’m not sure.
One more detail concerning dancing. It seems that Samora was a great dancer. Ya. He liked to dance and he danced very well, he danced very well. And since we dressed up, you know that city girls prefer men who dress up. He would have a great time with them. (Laughs) He would jump with excitement. All of us would be excited. That’s why I was saying that nurses were an important part of the middle class. They were quite elite. We were like an elite. In fact, even in the group led by Samora, there was only one tailor. There was only one tailor, called Alfredo, in that group. He passed away. I asked my colleagues and they told me, “that man has passed away.” Our suits were well made. White nurses who worked in the hospital didn’t know where we got such good clothes, especially because we earned little money. We earned between 200 and 500 escudos and you can imagine how little money that was. We also ate in the infirmaries and in the dorms. What helped us were some agreements in the infirmaries (sick-wards). For instance, in my case, I worked in the neuropsychiatry infirmary (sick-ward), and there were different kinds of patients and some of them received first class treatment. The great majority were seen by the physician, some were under state treatment which was 20 escudos, and the rest of the patients were distributed among us the nurses. It was under this arrangement that I got a piece of the pie. We also did what it is called outside clinical observations. I mean, the physicians would write prescriptions for patients and they would buy the medicines. However, instead of going to set up medical appointments with physicians everyday, the patients would invite nurses and we would go to the patient’s homes to give them inoculations and they would pay us. They would go to the patients’ houses to treat wounds and remove the dressings on wounds. We were paid for this kind of work, we got some money from doing these jobs.
What were the suits like that you asked the tailors to make for you?
We bought them. It’s just that they tailored them very well.
What were the colors of your suits? What were the suits like?
The tailor didn’t have the fabric for the suits. We had an Italian supplier of fabric. Where did he get the fabric from? He had one, what is the name of the place? There was a place where fabrics were sold and we went there to choose the colors we liked. Of course, we didn’t go there to get the same colors for all of us because we would look as if we bought a uniform. Each one of us bought the fabric to fit his taste. Then, we took the fabric to give to our tailor to make us suits, coats, etc. So, the tailor would make clothes according to the designs that each one of us chose. He was a very good tailor.
Did he also make hats?
We wore hats sometimes. We would wear white and straw hats.
Did you know about the relationship between Samora and Irene?
Yes. Irene Buque is my cousin. She is Chope and my wife is also Chope. I know her perfectly. I followed their romantic relationship closely. But their relationship started when he came back from Inhaca. Before her, he had another (ma)chope woman who is now at large (laughs), she is very beautiful. He always loved (ma)chope women. (Laughs)
But, when he came back from Inhaca, isn’t it true he already had three children?
Yes, with another woman that he met there.
How did these women get along? Was there any conflict between them?
No, no, there was no conflict between them because he left the children with their mother. He came here alone. If there was any confusion, it would have happened when he came back [from Tanzania], but the problem was solved. There was another woman. When he ran away from the country, he had another woman- what is her name?- it was Irene. Do you understand? He dated her. If he had not left the country, he might have married Irene. They had a serious romantic relationship. I know her.
Did he end up proposing marriage to her?
I think so. I think so. I don’t have any idea; I don’t remember. We enrolled together in the standard or European course. He didn’t finish the standard course because he left a year earlier. We finished the first and second years together, and I stayed to finish the standard course. He had already gone. He told me, “Aurélio, I am going away. Stay here and finish the course and then come after me to study. Let’s go.” This was after we had established contacts with Mondlane when he came to visit the country in 1961. This happened after Mondlane had left the United Nations. So, in 1963 Samora disappeared and I remained here to finish the course the same year. And in March of 1964, I mean in April 1964, I also left the country and we met there [Tanzania]. That’s it, I know Samora very well.
How did you escape or run away from the country?
I organized my flight. The flight included fellow nurses and colleagues such as Albino Maeche, Leornardo Cumbe, Francisco Langa, and me. We were nurses at Hospital Central [Miguel Bombarda Hospital]. We used to have our meetings in Xipamanine. Next to the church, there was a place where people played football [soccer]. Since we could not sit in the same place for a long time - it was an open football pitch with very few people- we would simply pass through the playing field as if we were just talking. We would talk and discuss our plans while walking. We divided the tasks among ourselves and my mission was to undertake a reconnaissance mission in the border area between Catuane and Ressano Garcia. Leornardo Cumbe was assigned to carry out a reconnaissance mission along the border with Gaza up to the limit with Inhambane, and Maeche had other tasks. This is an important aspect. I was involved in a clandestine group which was led by the late old man Mateus Sansão Muthemba. My group worked at night. There was also a subgroup led by Ângelo Chichava. Ângelo Azarias Chichava led this subgroup which worked at night. Chichava and I lived in that area of Chamanculo. So, we would meet to talk. We couldn’t meet at home for reasons of security. This was after my wedding. When we were still nursing students and living in the dorm, we could not talk about these issues overtly in the hospital. But when we were working and during lunch break at midday, we would sit down in the hospital and there was no problem with meeting in such circumstances. No one would suspect us in such situations because we were nurses and colleagues. We would sit comfortably talking and that’s how we did things and that’s how things evolved too. So, when the political situation started to change in Angola, in the Portuguese colonies and the emergence of new independent countries such as Ghana and the struggles for independence in countries such as Nyasaland (now Malawi), we nurses began to be hopeful about independence in the Portuguese colonies. We were supporters of people like Julius Nyerere, Jomo Kenyata, Joshua Nkomo, Kwame Nkrumah and many others; we realized that their countries had become independent or close to achieving their independence. Of course, we started raising questions about the possibility of Portuguese colonies gaining independence, particularly here in Mozambique. And there were some workers protests, especially stevedores [in the Lourenço Marques Harbor], workers in the sugarcane and many other places. We had many workers here protesting, and we nurses supported such protests in one way or another. We followed these events and that’s also how we evolved politically.
Do you remember having received any information about Samora or did you have any contacts with him when he was there [Tanzania] and you were here?
No, I mean, we only assumed that he had already arrived there.
You said that you were involved in underground work. How did you do such work? How did you establish the contacts between different cells?
It was not very easy, and that’s why there were many subgroups operating in the city. We didn’t know each other, we only knew the bosses of each group, and we never met as a whole group. However, bosses knew their elements; a boss would know that such and such person was a member of his group. It was the boss who assigned different missions to his members; everything we did was assigned by our bosses. I never participated in meetings, and I only received orders and instructions from Mateus Sansão Muthemba or from Ângelo Chichava, and nobody else. Now, in the hospital, I worked with Armando Guebuza’s father, Miguel Guebuza. We worked together and it was he who told me about the viewpoints of students. Students had their views about different issues and that’s why the student group (NESAM) left the country in their own way. It was in these circumstances that Miguel Guebuza told me about his son, Armando Guebuza, who was part of a group that was leaving the country for Tanzania via Chicualacuala or Malvéria at the time. It was also through the old man Muthemba that I came to know that his daughter, or better said his brother’s daughter, was Josina Muthemba. Josina was the daughter of Sansão Muthemba’s brother. She was also part of the group. There were other people including Arlindo Magaia. We nurses prepared ourselves individually for our flight. We had a meeting place which was the Anglican Church on the border with Namaacha. The church was located in the hills next to the seminary and it was also close to the border. This location helped us. In Catuane, we had another meeting place where we had a father [priest] as a friend and it was the same person who welcomed Samora. The father’s name was Moisés Cachimbo. After he had worked in the area for sometime he became a father in Catuane. Moisés Cachimbo knew the area very well and he left the area with his group which included Matias Mboa and one or two other people. The others hesitated to leave and they remained. Matias Mboa and one other person left the country – I don’t remember the name of the other person- I think his name was Lisboa or something similar to that. In any case, Samora and others also left the country. After we had made the reconnaissance mission, we realized that it was going be difficult to leave the country from Namaacha. There were four of us who were planning to leave from Namaacha. We realized as well that the other places were too far, for example, Catuane.
Can you repeat what you just said?
My group, which was constituted by four nurses, decided to leave the country from Namaacha because in this area, there was an Anglican church. It would be easy for us to go there. We would pretend to go to a religious service. We left on a Sunday, and rode the Oliveiras bus; these buses traveled to that area. Each one of us rode a different bus, we went in different buses: some took the bus at Angola Avenue, and others at the 28 de Maio garden. Some rode the bus next to Alto Maé. We acted as if we didn’t know each other, and that’s how we went to Namaacha. From there, we left the country. We did this on a Sunday I had a friend there who was a seminarist whose name is Serapião; Luís Serapião was a seminarist there. He is now living in the United States. He doesn’t want to come back. He also had a brother who was a physician who worked with us during the liberation struggle. He knew that we were going to leave the country. We had those books d’ Os Lusiadas painted on both sides in red to look like Bibles. We deceived people at the border, we told them that we were going to the church. They didn’t notice that we were not carrying Bibles at all, but Os Lusiadas. So, we crossed the border at 9 o’clock in the morning. Someone drove us across the border. Everybody carried letters. For example, I took a long letter with me to send to my wife from abroad and in the letter I explained everything to prevent her from panicking. The letter was also designed to let her know that I had left the country. We didn’t post the letters. After leaving the country, we rode a bus that took us to Manzini. In Manzini, we went to meet a physician who was recommended by one of my uncles. He was a father who had worked for a long time in Swaziland, doctor Zuan. Doctor Zuan worked there and there was another doctor called Msibi who was also there. But, Doctor Zuan lived in Matsapa [Massapa?]. It is now a well developed city. That’s where we stayed. We stayed at Doctor Zuan’s house because he was a member of the NgwaneNational Congress. That’s where we went and shared things.
But you said a few minutes ago that when Samora left, he told you, “I’m going and you stay here. After you finish the course, come to join me.”
I knew that; he knew his friends. There was one who vacillated at the last minute. I knew that he was leaving with Samora, I knew it. There were two who vacillated; one worked for the railways company whose name was Fumo, and I don’t know at the moment where he is. Maybe he passed away. I can say that the other person was very scared (Laughs), he didn’t want to get involved in such things. So you were deeply involved and engaged and later on you got into trouble. Right before Samora’s departure you were involved in trouble. How did you respond to such problems?
When? I’m sorry.
Before Samora left the country, there were some inspections and investigations. Isn’t this true? Maeche and Ferreira were arrested; were you part of the group arrested? Isn’t this true?
Maeche was detained because he was stubborn. It was due to stubbornness. I can say that. I talked with him several times. He was with us in Swaziland and he was assigned a mission from there. In Swaziland, we maintained contacts with Dar es Salaam because it was easy to have such communications. Later on, FRELIMO established its headquarters in Dar es Salaam, which also became a place where the movement received journalists. When Maeche was assigned the mission to come to work and undertake reconnaissance missions in Lourenço Marques and Inhambane he was told, “Be careful, don’t go to your house.” He had the task of finding out what things needed to be done here. But after Maeche left with us for the first time, when he came back here he found out that his wife had just given birth to twins. Of course, it was a difficult situation- wasn’t it? When I left my wife was also pregnant and she had eight days before giving birth to a baby girl, Aurélia Manave, who is now a basketball player. I didn’t meet my new-born daughter until when I returned from Tanzania and she was 12 years old. It was only when I returned from Tanzania that I met my daughter for the first time and she was 12 years old. However, when Maeche came for the reconnaissance mission he went to see his family and then he disappeared. He committed the mistake of informing people that he was going to leave on a given day. He had a cousin who was a PIDE agent, who got the same information, and his cousin took some people with him and they went to intercept Maeche in Namaacha. When he was preparing to leave the country for Tanzania, he was arrested in Namaacha. However, those people who had been sent to Swaziland to arrest us were beaten by the youth organization of the NgwaneNational Congress and were forced to retreat. I know them and some of them are still alive and living in this country. We just look at them and sometimes we laugh with them. There was an attempt to arrest us in Manzini, Swaziland and they didn’t succeed. They went to look for us at Doctor Zuan’s house in Matsapa and they didn’t find us. This was the bad luck that befell Maeche. The same thing happened to comrade Matias who was our boss there [Tanzania?]. Later on, when FRELIMO sent him to infiltrate into the fourth region, which was southern Mozambique, he didn’t succeed. However, Cumbe succeeded in infiltrating himself into the southern region going as far as Inhambane. He didn’t have any problems because he didn’t go to his home. He didn’t bid farewell to anyone. He worked in Gaza and then in Inhambane. We also needed some bulletins in the FRELIMO headquarters in Dar es Salaam. He didn’t have any problems. In conclusion, the mistake of Maeche is what I have just explained. It was not because he ran away or anything like that.
How long did you stay in Swaziland before leaving for South Africa? First, we wanted to leave from Swaziland. We received information that the struggle was going to start in 1964, and we could not leave. We stayed the whole year of 1964- we didn’t know anything- so, what did we do? We established contact with the railway company which had something similar to typography. I don’t know where they printed those pamphlets. They printed out many big leaflets, there were many pamphlets. I was not assigned to this mission. Some of us came back and they inserted the pamphlets into each of the newspapers without other people knowing that. They also distributed the leaflets under the doors- this was how newspapers were distributed to subscribers at that time. This distribution took place in December and seriously affected the Portuguese and was a very serious matter for PIDE. The pamphlets were distributed up to Inhambane. We were very organized – there were many groups that spread out in a very short period of time, and they returned the same day at night. Some of them jumped the border into Swaziland. So on the following day, people woke up to read that FRELIMO had launched the liberation struggle. By the way, I don’t know where Maduna, Matias and the other people were hiding. I don’t know what the situation was with them, but they were hunted down. Matias succeeded in jumping the border to Swaziland and came to meet us. He worked with us. However, when he found out and heard that such and such a person was arrested back in Mozambique, he returned to Mozambique. But before he returned to the country he was told, “Don’t go back there now, Matias. This is not the right time to go there, you can’t go now.” Despite this warning, he returned to the country, and I don’t know what happened exactly, but he was arrested shortly after. So, what did we do there? We started leaving [Swaziland] in small groups. Guebuza, Francisco Langa and I left for Tanzania. We were three. There was an English guy, Moggen, who was a shopkeeper. The man had some shops and it was he who drove us beyond the South African border. I knew the guy very well because he was brother-in-law of a police inspector in Pretoria. I got to know him because of Doctor Domingos, a physician who had worked for many years in Massiene [Maciene] and was then living in Swaziland. My uncle worked for him as cook and my cousin also worked for him as a domestic worker. They told me, “Look, this man [Moggen] can take you out of South Africa.” When they told me this, I invited Guebuza and I told him that although [Moggen] is connected, he is a very serious person. At least, he can take us where we want to be, but as a small group. There were other people who had left in very small groups too. For example, the girls such as Josina, Adelina, and Rosália Macamo. Someone came from Dar es Salaam to get the girls. He took them as if they were his daughters because he also took his wife and his other children. He was a Jehovah’s Witness or better said, he was a Zion [clergyman] and was wearing his cassock and was also holding something in his hands. This man left with the other small group consisting of those girls. Guebuza, Langa and I left in our small group in Moggen the shopkeeper’s car. We traveled well because Moggen was driving and went to Benoni. It was a place with very few blacks. He drove us to Benoni and then to Pretoria. There were very few blacks around and we could not walk around the place. Then he brought us inside his house. It was also the house of a police inspector. We stayed there and he put us in a small room with everything we needed to eat. We knew how to cook and that’s what we did. We stayed in that place for two days while preparing the way to get into Botswana. And we eventually left in this man, Moggen’s, car. He knew that we would pass from Francistown and Harare [then Salisbury] and along the border we would meet the Bushmen [San]. They like tobacco and cigars and our designated driver, Moggen, gave cigars and tobacco to the Bushmen. He used to cross that border frequently. They allowed us to pass the border and we went to Francistown. We didn’t go to Gaborone. Moggen left us in Francistown and he returned to South Africa. However, we were being lured by PIDE who were working closely with the South African police forces. Two days after our arrival in Tanzania, the group of girls also arrived and this group included Josina and Adelina Mocumbi. The Zion priest, Muiambo, was able to cross the border pretending to be their father. His son, Domingos Muiambo, is a professor at UP [Pedagogical University]. There was another attempt of young Mozambicans to cross the border and they were betrayed in Swaziland. They were 75 people who accepted to ride a bus to cross the South African border to enter Botswana. While they were still traveling in South African territory, the bus was intercepted and the group was forced to stop. All 75 people in the bus were arrested. We were 18 people in Swaziland in a short period of time. How we got to Tanzania no one knows. We moved in small groups, each group making its own way. We were 18 people. What happened there? We were all detained. All the men were arrested in Botswana and the girls were also. PIDE was contacted and they chartered airplanes. We were able to establish contact with Lusaka and they in turn contacted Dar es Salaam. Mondlane was there. Kaunda talked with Julius Nyerere and he talked with Mondlane. There were some complications because Botswana was still a protectorate and some form of permission was required from London. A car for refugees was sent to get us. Mondlane and Kaunda had gone to wait for us on the margins of the Zambezi River on the border between Zambia and Botswana. They came to inform us that we would be released and there was an attempt to take us by plane to Dar es Salaam. We said, “Our party doesn’t have the money to charter a plane for us. We don’t want to fly, we want to go overland.” There were some protests against our decision and we insisted, “We are going overland and if you insist that we should go by plane, we are not going to arrive in Dar es Salaam. The plane is going to explode.” They were afraid of FRELIMO guerrillas because they thought we had undergone military training. It’s true that we trained in Swaziland, but not enough to scare people. However, since they knew the strength of FRELIMO, they became scared and when the planes arrived from Maputo they were kept on the ground waiting for our decision. At night, a truck arrived to pick up us refugees, a truck of the High Commission for Refugees. All of us got into the truck, including girls and everybody else. The truck took us to Lusaka and when we were traveling across the river, we were being watched closely from the boats. That’s how we escaped. Otherwise, we would have been taken in the plane and sent back to Maputo. We were able to prevent such a situation. Some of the people who traveled with me included Mariano Matshinhe, Alberto Sitoé, and they became our representatives there. FRELIMO organized Land Rovers for us and we were taken to Dar es Salaam. That’s how we escaped.
When did you meet Samora Machel again?
Samora had gone for military training in Algeria and from there he was sent to Kongwa.
Among the people who were sent for military training in Algeria, who were the prominent ones besides Samora? Well, I can’t really clearly identify the people. But, I know that Alberto Chipande was in the same group. Pachinuapa and Matias Mboa were also part of Samora’s group. Who else? There was a man called Matias from Cabo Delgado and also Salésio. These are some of the elements. There were two groups and one of them was Magaia’s, the first group was Magaia’s. I was trained in Bagamoyo. Once we arrived in Tanzania, we were sent for military training in Bagamoyo, which was our first military training camp.
During all this time, didn’t you meet Samora?
No, I didn’t.
Did you work with Hélder Martins?
Yes, yes, yes. When I was there I met Doctor Hélder Martins with his wife. I met both doctors.
When and what was your first meeting with Samora Machel like?
It was when he went to Dar es Salaam. He had gone there to receive instructions because they were going to be moved to Nachingwea.
Did he know that you were there?
He knew that. He knew about the group because it was reported in the newspapers when we were arrested in Botswana. He knew that we were coming because our names were provided to the government of Tanzania and President Mondlane. With our names listed, they ensured that we got there safely. They didn’t want anyone of us to disappear. Our detention scared some people and was widely reported in the newspapers. It was in these circumstances that Samora found out that we were already in Botswana, and we were on our way to Dar es Salaam. Nyerere, Mondlane wanted to see us arrive in Dar es Salaam and we didn’t stay long in Lusaka. We were organized on the following day and were taken to Dar es Salaam. It is a long distance. We traveled to Tanzania to be received in Dar es Salaam. And that’s how they saw us. We were about to be repatriated back to Mozambique. The British government was informed that we arrived in Dar es Salaam. I don’t know who made such contacts with the British government. In any case, that’s how we were protected and we arrived in Dar.
Were you received by Samora?
We were welcomed by Mondlane in his office, and some representatives of the Tanzanian government also came to see us. Some elements of the press also came to see us in the office. They all came to see the people who were in danger of being deported to Mozambique. This incident was bad.
This happened in 1964 and 1965… We arrived in Dar es Salaam in 1965. We stayed a year and some months in Swaziland because it was very difficult to leave the country. It was necessary to carefully study all the possibilities for escaping from the country. It was so early to leave the territory. I think it was in May, I think it was in early May or June; I have this written somewhere including the newspapers where we all appeared. Our arrival in Dar es Salaam was published in the newspapers. I think the publication was in May.
[Question……..]
I don’t know. At that time I didn’t know the people who were in touch with FRELIMO. I know one, Seuaia. I only know that Seuaia was a member of the Lutheran Church. But, on the other hand, they called Spichel Brunch who was from the security. I worked with him, I know him, he is a very religious man. I know he was, but he was not the one who represented the government. These were some who worked in our offices.
You didn’t tell us when and what your reunion with Samora was like.
Well, our reunion was a happy one. It was a happy reunion, it was a happy moment.
Where did the reunion take place? Was it in Dar es Salaam?
It was in Dar es Salaam, and they lived in Temeke. There was a FRELIMO residential house in Temeke. Everyone who worked in the FRELIMO offices lived in Temeke and the rest of people like us lived in the Mozambican Institute. I went to Bagamoyo because the training of nurses was about to be introduced. Doctors Hélder and Helena Martins were in Dar es Salaam. I think it was Mondlane or Samora who said, “Go and get a nurse who can be an instructor here with you. Go and bring Aurélio here.” So, Magaia came to get me, and on our way we passed through Kongwa to get more people, but we didn’t find Samora there. I know Kongwa by being there for a short time. From there, Magaia and I went directly to the Instituto Moçambicano [Mozambican Institute]. Samora arrived in Dar es Salaam to receive instructions to move to Nachingwea. On the weekends we went out to the beach. There were some girls in the Mozambican Institute, and Samora was also there. Mabote who always walked with Samora was also present. We all went to the beach- we used to go to the beach on the weekends. That’s where we met, and that was when he noticed that I had arrived. I told him then what we had been through and all the events and how we survived in those circumstances. He wanted to know everything: he wanted to know the route we used and how the Portuguese authorities reacted. He also wanted to know how our colleagues reacted, especially our white colleagues who had attended nursing education with us. He wanted to know everything. There was a woman who was the wife of a policeman and the man had fled. Samora responded saying,” I already know that, Aurélio,” and I asked, “You knew what?” “Your friend had a guerrilla face.” And I said, “Well, I didn’t notice that. I know that he was my friend. He was my colleague as you all know. But I think you’re exagerating. A guerrilla where there is no guerrilla war, how can that be possible?” “He was not a bad man.” Then, he started to describe the man. The truth is that Samora complained a lot. By the time you met Samora, do you think he had changed his personality? Was he a different person?
We didn’t have any problems in our relationship. He always treated me as his sibling and younger brother. I have never had any problems with Samora. I didn’t have any problems with him. He always encouraged me to go to have military training. Not everyone could go abroad for military training. I also wanted to go abroad for military training [Algeria]. One of the things that made us leave Mozambique was the desire to get further education abroad. We wanted scholarships to study abroad. This was the first incentive that we got from Mondlane. All of us wished to get a scholarship to study abroad including Samora. But when we arrived in Dar es Salaam, we realized that the situation was different and the war must be fought by men. All of us couldn’t go abroad to study. Samora chose to go for military training in Algeria. I also wanted to be sent abroad for military training. He persuaded me not to go abroad for military training and he told me to stay and train other nurses. “The war is going to start now,” he said, and he also said many other things. I had already undergone military training for militia sergeants in Boane, I trained there, so military training was not a new thing for me. He [Samora] also knew about my military training in Boane. But since other people had been sent abroad for military training I also wanted to go because I wanted to be part of the guerrilla. But, I didn’t have that kind of luck.
When did you attend your military training as a militia sergeant?
It was in 1960. My number is 1715- one thousand seven hundred and fifteen- that’s my number. It is my sergeant militia number which I received when I was in Boane.
Did you meet Samora frequently in Tanzania, or because of the amount of work that you had did you meet rarely or sporadically?
Samora was the one who was busy much of the time because he was the boss of the Nachingwea Military Training Center. I didn’t have an assignment to be there, and that’s why I didn’t go there. What did I have to do there? My mission was to train cadres for the health sector. We had three training courses for nurses and each of them lasted a year. There were very intensive courses under the supervision of Doctor Hélder Martins. I worked with Doctor Hélder Martins. I had with me the nursing programs produced in Lourenço Marques. We were able to send books designed for training nurses to Tanzania from here, Lourenço Marques.
I’m sorry, I’m going to back up a little bit. You said that when you ran away from the country, you took with you books d’ Os Lusiadas disguised as Bibles. Were d’Os Lusiadas very important for you?
They were important for us or at least for me because I was in Liceu [Secondary school]. Besides having completed the first circle of education in secondary school, I was studying at Liceu Salazar at night. I also studied at the Associação dos Antigos Estudantes de Coimbra where an evening course was introduced. I had also studied in the school that is now Universidade Pedagógica [Pedagogical University-UP/ it was called Escola General Machado]. In that school instruction went through seventh grade, but later on an evening course was introduced in a college called Instituto Portugal, on the other side where the Ministry of Women Affairs is located. It was a nurse’s residence, it was built for him. I completed the third and fourth year of secondary school there. I started the fifth year and then left and went to Instituto Portugal. That’s what happened. Even Samora studied at Ribeiro da Silva. It was a private college and is where he studied arts and humanities. By then we were together. Very well, I eventually decided to go to Liceu Salazar where I completed the first and second circles of secondary education. We were already studying there, and I was waiting to get a scholarship to study medicine at Universidade do Porto. I wanted to study medicine.
[Question:……………….]
I saw the pictures of the wedding between Samora and Josina. I am the godfather of Josina. Janet and I were the godparents of Josina. Chipande and Marina were the godparents of Samora during their wedding in Dar es Salaam.
Did you witness or follow their relationship?
Samora and Josina dated each other and they had a romantic relationship. Josina worked with me at the Mozambican Institute. After she had worked in Songueia and Tunduro, they were called to attend the nursing course. We needed textbooks and we needed them to type the textbooks. Josina and Adelina Mocumbi came to stay with us in the Mozambican Institute. Both of them typed those textbooks. They typed the textbooks and they reproduced the materials. I don’t know how they reproduced the materials or the name of the machine. But before, Josina used to date Magaia. She dated Magaia in the first place.
You mean Filipe Samuel Magaia?
Yes, indeed. Filipe Samuel Magaia.
Did he go to Kongwa ------?
Yes. Magaia was the big boss. Samora was the boss in the field. However, when Magaia went to Nachingwea, he took all his staff with him and they went to the interior of Mozambique. This decision was very controversial. They shouldn’t have taken that decision because it was very dangerous. But they went ahead to the interior. Now, I don’t know in what circumstances Magaia died, I really don’t know how it happened. But what happened thereafter? What happened afterwards was the beginning of a romantic relationship between Samora and Josina, the romantic relationship between Samora and Josina evolved. Josina was working and living in the Mozambican Institute at the time and I was also there. I knew her very well, Josina was like my younger sister. Her parents are from Xai-Xai. Her father was a colleague. Her uncle was also in Tanzania, and he knew me very well because I had worked with him in underground missions in Lourenço Marques. The old man, Muthemba, knew me very well. It was an old friendship. However, there are some people who think that Samora got to know me inside FRELIMO and this is not true. Samora and I got to know each other in Lourenço Marques. There was a Chinese man who prepared good seafood such as prawns and some salads. We used to go to his place to eat seafood on the weekends. That’s where we spent our weekends. The Chinese man is no longer there. The Chinese man would make us laugh a lot because he didn’t speak Portuguese very well. He used to say, “If you don’t want to pay, go away and I assure you that more people are coming who are ready to pay.” When he said these words in Chinese we would laugh, it was a big laugh. We also used to go to the cinema and our preferred cinemas were Scala and Império. I was only able to visit other cinemas later on, for instance, what is now called Cine África which belonged to Manuel Rodrigues. His son had a mental breakdown and I was the one who assisted him. Manuel Rodrigues’s son had a breakdown because he studied very hard to get good grades so that he could pass with distinction and get a scholarship to study abroad. His son was in the seventh grade of secondary school. He had a breakdown and was sent for psychiatric medical treatment. I took care of the student in the sick-ward. He was my patient, with other physicians. I took care of him and I saw him recovering. I would talk with him until he recovered. The young man recovered and got back to his normal condition. He was given instructions of what to do and not do. When his parents came to visit his son, they asked him, “How do you want us to thank your nurse?” The young man’s mother brought me things, and they also said, “This man should be allowed into our cinemas, give him a card to the cinema.” I was one of the few blacks who went to the cinema using a card. With the card I was allowed to get into the cinemas without charge; it was free for me. I was able to get into Manuel Rodrigues’ cinemas here in Lourenço Marques and Inhambane. I was also allowed into Gil Vicente cinema. I was allowed into all these cinemas and with me I took my girlfriend who is now my wife. Other blacks who I saw going into these cinemas were Mocumbi and Chissano.
Tell me one thing. I grew up in Inhambane very close to Manuel Rodrigues’s cinema. When you went to the cinema did you stay in the back seats reserved for blacks or did you sit in the front seats? There were some divisions inside those cinemas.
Yes, there were seats reserved for blacks. But it was a luxury cinema. (Laughs) We were not allowed to mix up with whites. (Laughs)
As far as I know, it was still like that.…
Yes. But they were destroyed.
What was Filipe Samuel Magaia like in terms of personality? How was he? I think he is one of the rather obscure personalities in the history of Mozambique.
Yes. I got to know Magaia in Dar es Salaam. I didn’t get to know him here. I noticed that he had a great personality, but he was not very open; for example, during the meetings he didn’t talk much, and I didn’t see strength and firmness in him. This is my personal opinion. He was different from Mondlane. But he was a very nice boss. He was an extremely nice person and he respected other people very much. I say this because he seems to have lived and grown up in Quelimane [Nampula]. I’m not very sure, but he was also a soldier. He went for training as a militia sergeant at the time. I think that was the kind of military training he received. However, I worked with his father or uncle, nurse Magaia, at the Hospital Central [Miguel Bombarda Hospital]. I worked with one of his relatives for many years at Hospital Central. When I found out about him in Dar es Salaam, I immediately associated him with the other Magaia I had worked with at Hospital Central; I thought they were family members. When I heard Magaia being called, I quickly associated him with the other Magaia. He was a good friend. He treated me as if I was his elder brother. He had noticed that Josina and I were like brother and sister. With his association with Josina and his frequent contacts with her, we all ended up being very close to each other. We were always in touch with Josina. If she wanted to go to the beach on the weekend or to President Mondlane’s house we were together. When President Mondlane and his wife traveled, Josina and I would go to their house to stay with the kids. Paula also joined us, and we were three people staying with Eduardo and Janet’s children. We would take the children to school in the absence of their parents. I used to drive that Volkswagen car which is now deposited at Museu da Revolução [Museum of Revolution]. I would drive his children to school. I had a very good rapport with Mondlane and he knew that I was close to the old man, Muthemba. Muthemba respected me very much and I was his friend too. But I never participated in the political debates, I didn’t participate in the political meetings in Nachingwea. I didn’t go to Nachingwea for military and political training. During school holidays, he [Mondlane] used to give talks and address students in the student camps. Students were sent to student camps during school holidays; they would leave Dar es Salaam to stay in student’s camps. But I have never been to the student camp because my work was very demanding. I had to take care of FRELIMO workers in the Mozambican Institute. I also had to take care of and treat students who attended college at the American Institute. Some of our students attended English classes at the American Institute. I didn’t attend many of the meetings between FRELIMO cadres and guerrillas. When I arrived in Nachingwea, Magaia had passed away and I missed the opportunity to see him meeting guerrillas. He was a very good person. However, there was a period characterized by conflicts that involved Father Gwenjere, Reverend Luther Simango, Kavandame, and other people. There were some divisions; for example, some preferred me as a sort of physician and they didn’t want Hélder Martins because he was white. Some didn’t want Hélder and Helena Martins because they were whites. The opponents would ask, “What are these people doing here? They are white settlers, our physician is this man here.” This is because I treated them whenever they came to see the doctor. They were seen by Doctor Hélder Martins, but they never accepted him. They were racists. Those FRELIMO members who were racists were the same people who created contradictions inside the movement. Some of the conflicts inside the movement had to do with racism. However, as a human being Magaia was a very nice person,.he was a very good boss.
What about the relationship between Samora and Magaia? Did they get along well? Samora was a very energetic person, wasn’t he? Ah. He was a very energetic person from the time when he was my colleague at the hospital. The relationship between the two men was good because Samora was an impeccable person.
What about the relationship between Magaia as the chief and Samora as deputy-chief? What was their relationship?
The other was the first chief…
Can you repeat that?
I said that Magaia was FRELIMO’s first chief for defense while Samora was the chief of the Centro de Preparação Política de Nachingwea [Centre for Political Training of Nachingwea]. So Magaia spent much of the time in Dar es Salaam in what it was called FRELIMO headquarters; it was where he worked. While Samora received orders from Magaia and other bosses in Dar. So, Samora was more in touch with the soldiers, he was in direct contact with the soldiers. Political and defense issues were in the hands of Magaia and Mondlane. Samora had to report everything to Magaia and Mondlane. However, as I said, in terms of dynamism and in terms of establishing direct contacts with the soldiers, everything was in the hands of Samora. I didn’t see the meetings organized by Magaia either. Besides, Nachingwea was a very new camp. It was around this time when the main FRELIMO cadres left Nachingwea for the first time to the interior of the country, and on their return, Magaia was assassinated. He died. I was not there, I was in Dar es Salaam. I only found out about this because I was told by Mondlane to go to rescue the car that carried them. The car suffered an accident. So, some people and I organized the equipment and we went to where they were in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. That’s what happened. Now, in terms of comparison…
During the period of the liberation struggle, did you end up having a private meeting with Samora? Do you remember any story that characterizes or describes the way in which Samora worked during the liberation struggle, something that defines his personality during that period?
No. He had a very good personality. I think many people appreciated his personality; I noticed that when I went to Nachingwea. In Dar es Salaam, I only saw him in the Mozambican Institute.
When did you go to Nachingwea?
I went there after the conflicts in the Mozambican Institute had receded. It was when the institute was closed. Why was it closed? It was closed because he knew about the consequences of the Mozambican Institute. He was already expecting that some of the students who supported the ideological line of FRELIMO would leave the institute and go to Nachingwea where he was the boss. Whenever he came to the Mozambican Institute where I lived, we would go out together. We were grown men by then, so we would go out together at night. I would take him to the cinema and other places. (Laughs) During that time he was not the kind of person who went out in large groups. I was living in the Mozambican Institute by then, I had better conditions, I had enough things. While I was in the Mozambican Institute, I paid close attention to the unfolding of the liberation struggle and all activities undertaken in Nachingwea. Even Samora briefed me with information about the activities undertaken in the centre and also on the battlefield. I was well informed about many things. Sometimes Chipande would come to Dar es Salaam on the weekends and I would take him out. I used to take out people coming from the border or from the interior of Mozambique. In fact, I had to take them out because they were also friends and they were young men too. We would go to the beach. But before leaving, we would prepare some snacks and food to eat at the beach. We would go there and enjoy ourselves. Most of them came from Temeke. We would go to the beach with the girls, for example, Josina and Adelina before she got married and went to Algeria with her husband. We would go out with these girls and others to have fun on the beach. We would have lunch together on the beach, swim, play, and do many other things. In terms of my friendship with Samora, I must say it was good. There was no problem. The way we lived and socialized in the hospital was very good. Whenever he came to Dar es Salaam, and when he had enough time, we would go out together because it was also dangerous for a person of his status to go out alone in the middle of the night in that city. He had to have somebody with him to go out. He had to be accompanied by someone to go to the places he liked to go, for example, to the cinema. For example, when he wanted to watch a war movie, for example, a Vietnam War film, we would go together to watch such movies. I was a member of one of the cinemas.
[Question:………………………………………?]
Hi! It was a lot; it was a lot. The organization of the armed struggle and its advance in the interior was very good. Samora was a very good organizer. He would explain to me the importance of accelerating the training of health personnel. He wanted to integrate the trained nurses into the guerrilla groups. He wanted them in the guerrilla groups and also involved in combat operations. Some of the nurses were integrated into the groups that remained behind for backup and logistical support. The guerrilla units not involved in combat were supposed to create the necessary conditions to receive the wounded combatants, and take them from Mozambique to Tanzania. True enough, we didn’t have many wounded combatants. We had other nurses who were trained in the main hospitals in Cabo Delgado and Niassa who were an important addition to the nurses trained by Hélder Martins, his wife, and me. Those who were trained in the hospitals, particularly at Hospital Central [Miguel Bombarda Hospital], had more experience because they received the kind of training that would allow them to work at the Hospital Central. However, many of the trained nursing students went to work where they were placed. Therefore, I can say that the health service network in the interior of the country was fairly developed. Health conditions were very good. As newly liberated zones were created, new advanced health posts were created. Other health posts were created in the rear-guard and were well equipped to treat the wounded people. Combatants who were severely wounded were evacuated and transferred to Tanzania for treatment. During that time, we had support from the hospital of Mtwara in Tanzania; it was in Mtwara. Later on, we decided that it was important to build our hospital; this was before the Portuguese operation Nó Górdio [Gordian Knot Operation]. We realized that it was necessary to build our hospital, which was called Hospital Doutor Américo Boavinda. It was the name of an Angolan fighter and militant and the hospital was equipped with almost everything. It had rooms and equipment for surgeries, internal medicine, a laboratory, and it had a pharmacy and sick-ward to admit/house patients. The storage of medicines was divided according to the provinces of the country and each province according to the [military] zones. There was the first sector, second sector, third sector… that’s how the storage rooms for medicines were organized. We organized the medicines in that way to avoid problems between those who were on the frontlines. They would come to get the medicines according to the needs of different sectors. For example, those who were in the first sector would come to get medicines for their sector; those who were in the second sector would come to get the medicines for their sector as well and their province. This is how we did things. I also went inside the storage room especially after Doctor Hélder Martins was expelled from Tanzania and this was after the Second Congress of FRELIMO. After my return from the II Congress, there was a meeting of the Central Committee in Nachingwea. In that meeting, the central committee decided to nominate me as the Director of Health Services for the Mozambique Liberation Front (FRELIMO). This was in August of 1968 right after the II Congress. I was in the interior by then. I was part of the two companies that went to prepare and organize the II Congress in Madjedje.
Were there many discussions during the II Congress? Were there many people?
Oh yes. We discussed the liberation struggle although some people who disagreed with the ideological line chose not to go to the congress. They just didn’t show up for the congress.
What was the role of Samora at that time?
As chief for defense, he had the guerrillas in his hands, he had control over them. He had the defense cadres in his hands. There was no room for confusions and conflicts. The guerrillas ensured the congress being carried out. There were delegates for all the provinces where the struggle was taking place except the southern provinces such as Gaza and Inhambane that the struggle had not reached. Guerrillas, military cadres, and cadres from Nachingwea were also present at the II Congress. Since the liberation struggle had not reached the southern provinces of Inhambane, Gaza, and Maputo, there were no representatives of these provinces. But there were guerrillas who were born in those provinces.
How did Samora follow the crises that took place in Dar es Salaam? Did he have any information?
Yes, he had some information. When the rebellion took place in the Mozambican Institute during the night (this was before the assassination of Mondlane), Samora was also in Dar es Salaam. It was after this incident that the institute was closed down. He had been in the institute earlier that day before the confusion broke out at night. He would go there with some frequency. He always carried his pistol and when he found out about the disturbances and conflicts, he and four other people who came with him from Temeke went to my room. They didn’t fire any shots. He knew my room and Koloma’s who is now an ambassador. Koloma and I lived in the teacher’s residence. Samora came to hide his pistol in my residence. Since the students knew that I was his close friend, once the Tanzanian police forces arrived, the students started shouting, “These two friends are the ones who are threatening us.” So, the police arrested me and Koloma. There was a police station in Colasil located between 100 and 200 meters from where we lived. Koloma and I were detained and sent to the police station. The police went to investigate my room and they found Samora’s pistol and mine. But Samora was gone by then. He didn’t stay because he didn’t want to get involved in that conflict. Much later, comrade Chissano and Marcelino dos Santos went to negotiate with the police to release us from the police station. We were released at daybreak. They had to talk with the Tanzanian authorities. Another important aspect to mention is that Samora used to come to Dar es Salaam to get matériel. He would come to inquiry about the delivery of matériel. Sometimes he wanted to know when the Tanzanian trucks would carry the needed matériel to deliver to bases such as Nachingwea and other border areas. He would go to Dar es Salaam quite often to deal with different issues. You asked me another question.
What was his role? Did he have an important role?
He knew about the internal conflicts. For instance, he knew about the publication of “A Triste Situação da FRELIMO” (“The Sad Situation of FRELIMO”). The article was published with a title like that. The confusion was caused by Gwenjere and Khavandame. The guerrillas organized themselves to wage the war and that was their most important task. Samora was responsible for organizing the guerrillas and plan the war on different frontlines. He was not involved in the confusion [of the Mozambique Institute]. During the conflicts in the Mozambique Institute, Samora was not in Nachingwea. He was always informed about the events happening in Dar es Salaam. Chissano was responsible for security within FRELIMO. He was the Secretary of President Mondlane and chief of security of the Department of Defense. Therefore, all the information had to be provided to the person who was the chief and the one responsible for the guerrillas. Besides, Samora was a member of the executive committee and the central committee. As member of the executive committee of FRELIMO he participated in its meetings. Eventually, FRELIMO discontinued meetings in Dar es Salaam and started holding their meetings in Nachingwea because they believed that by holding the meetings in Nachingwea they were connecting directly with those involved in the struggle. They stopped holding the meetings in Dar es Salaam. Once people arrived in Nachingwea, they realized the futility of worrying about their personal problems and grievances. If someone had problems on his mind, when he got to Nachingwea training centre he/she would leave such problems behind. The person would walk into the camp focusing on the struggle and not on his/her personal issues. Everybody was very scared because of the discipline and organization that the camp imposed on the people. There was no room for gossip and rumors in the centre. People also didn’t enter the camp and align with others on the basis of tribal and regional affiliation. We were very attentive. People were expected to concentrate their attention on the struggle. Every communiqué or item of information was given to Samora first and after he had read them he would send them to Jorge Rebelo, who was responsible for publication of information and propaganda. Samora wanted to check the veracity of the information before it was published.
1970 must have been a very difficult year for Samora. Is this true? It must have been a very difficult year in many respects: personally because of the death of Josina, and also in military terms because it was in that year that the Operação Nó Górdio [Gordian Knot Operation] was launched. Is this true?
Yes, but it was for a short period of time because he recovered from all that. When Mondlane died, he was in the interior of the country with Pachinuapa and others. They were in Cabo Delgado and found out about the death of Samora through the radio. It was through the radio that they received the information that Mondlane had been killed. If you pay close attention to the many activities I undertook in the country, you will notice that most of the time I was with Josina. Why? It was because I was involved with the health services. Josina and other people were involved with the children. We always planned together to go to the different provinces in the interior of the country. We also planned our trips to the interior together to carry out activities that concerned her. We also went together to Niassa many times. We marched and worked together because our work was indispensable to the health centers for children there. It was necessary that we went together to Niassa to see what we could do, and what kind of work needed to be done. Besides this, Janet Mondlane traveled abroad raising money and support for the health and education services and for children. Josina and I were always involved in these kinds of activities. The strategic plans to expand the liberation struggle were designed in Nachingwea by Samora and others. Despite the fact that Samora was in Nachingwea, he was responsible for planning implementation of the liberation struggle; the command centre was in Nachingwea. They used maps to plan the struggle and discussed the military operations with President Mondlane whenever they went to visit Dar es Salaam. Samora used to go to Dar es Salaam to discuss the ongoing struggle with Mondlane. Mondlane had his own maps and Samora would explain to him how the struggle was unfolding by showing him on the maps. This was the kind of job Samora and his fellow comrades did in the [sala de operações]. The chief of military operations was Chipande and Ribeiro was the commissar.
The couple Ribeiro….
It was the couple Ribeiro and later on Mabote who also joined the [operações]. Mabote was [adjunto] because Alberto was the chief of operations. They were operatives. They analyzed the situation on the maps and they also received assistance from our Chinese advisors who were present there. They analyzed the military operations using maps.
You said that after the death of Josina, he recovered….
Ya, he recovered after the death of Mondlane. Later on, I returned from Niassa…by the way, we returned with Josina from Niassa because she was pregnant by then. She had her second pregnancy. She came with me from Nachingwea but was not feeling very well. We found out that her disease was very strange and we didn’t know exactly what was happening with her. After a short time, she was interned in a hospital where the Chinese worked with Corasine. It was in this hospital that she passed away. She passed away when she was still pregnant. I think that the fetus was preserved and was donated to the Faculty of Medicine. The fetus was not thrown away; it was kept in that hospital. It is true that Samora was shocked by this incident; I remember this vividly. As his friend, godfather, and someone with experience in the health sector, I tried to talk with him, we talked about it. I still remember that there was a big discussion to determine who was going to keep the child, Samito. He was a very young boy. Various groups of people were pushing for their sides. There were different groups of people arguing to take the young boy. This was one of the discussions that I followed closely at that time. Later on it was decided that Samito would remain there and also decided that someone would be found to look after Samito. It was also decided that Samito would be sent to the house of Eduardo and Janet Mondlane. He would not be sent abroad as some people had requested. There had been many people who had requested taking Samito out of Mozambique. Samora was convinced that he needed to keep the child in Tunduru and he found Ema to look after his child. As the boss, Samora had also a residence in Tunduru. Things were just like that. He recovered very well and was able to lead FRELIMO guerrillas during the Gordian Knot Operation. He also had access to important information, particularly the situation on the ground. The Gordian Knot Operation first started in Niassa and it failed. They [the Portuguese] didn’t succeed. … It didn’t have a name.…There was a place called Minerva….
These were operations.…
Yes. Military events were progressing towards the Gordian Knot Operation which coincided with the arrival of Kaúlza de Arriaga. It was during this time the Portuguese authorities shouted “Ah, yes, I see this is like a knot and FRELIMO will be ended very soon. I’ll clean up this country in a very short time.” We also received information from our friends abroad who knew about Kaúlza de Arriaga, his military training, his thinking, and many other things. We had received all those documents and our leadership had all that information. We read all the information to know him [Kaúlza de Arriaga] and his strategy better. Our Chinese advisors helped us to understand his war strategy. We also had other friends from other countries who helped us understand the war strategy and how things would follow. In the interior, the war was being prepared…
Did you travel to the interior of the country with Samora?
I went with him several times. I went several times as a health leader. Whenever he had to go to the interior, I also had to go there.
[Question: …………………………………………………………]
The first time was in 1968 when we went to Niassa at the time of the II Congress. After that, I recall when he went with some cadres to organize meetings for the purpose of calling the attention of cadres in Cabo Delgado to the enemy’s intentions. I was also there; I was there with him. These were meetings taking place on the frontlines. By then, I knew that the enemy never approached when they knew that the soldiers’ leader [Samora] was going to be there. They knew that he didn’t travel alone, and that he didn’t go empty handed. So, they never approached there despite the fact that the meetings, which took place in different zones in Cabo Delgado, involved all the cadres and population. It’s true that there were some private meetings that involved only cadres who were directly involved in military operations in Cabo Delgado. Among many other issues, they discussed how to hide the military equipment so that the enemy could not find it. Military equipment was hidden in the machambas [fields] and there were some people who knew exactly where the weapons were located and they were also responsible for supplying the soldiers. Sometimes without knowing it, enemy troops would walk on top of the hidden weapons; they would step on the hidden FRELIMO weapons, but didn’t have the time to search for them. Some of the [water storage] depots were empty and we didn’t have time to bathe when the Operação Nó Górdio [Gordian Knot Operation] started, isn’t that so? We would dig and blockade the roads with trees, such as banana trees, and do other things to make the movement of the enemy troops difficult. The planning meetings had positive outcomes. He himself [Samora Machel] acknowledged that the war had evolved. I can also say that there were few wounded guerrillas. By this time, I was working in the hospital; the Hospital Américo Boavida had been inaugurated and we had an orthopedic surgeon working there. We had an orthopedic center and also internal medicine.
What was Samora Machel like in the bush? He liked to walk; did he like to walk in the bush?
He was an instructor and he trained everyday. He would not go to the interior without his skipping-rope. Even in the interior, he would always skip his rope at night and early morning to keep himself in shape, while many of us would only march. We would run in the morning. But he [Samora Machel] would run in the morning and also skip his rope. He took his skipping-rope seriously.
Is there a story about that?
No, what kind of story?
I mean a funny joke about the fact that he was so involved in skipping his rope.
(Laughs) He was always a man of stories. He was very critical of people whom he thought were lazy and who didn’t pay attention to the war in Mozambique and were more interested in following the wars taking place in other countries. He was the enemy of that kind of people. He didn’t like that; he would laugh about it and at the same time would make fun of them saying things like “our struggle is stagnant.” Some of his enemies would praise the struggle of MPLA or other liberation movements. They seemed to be malcontents. Sometimes he [Samora Machel] would tell them “Let’s go to the interior.” He wanted to show them where [FRELIMO guerrillas] had occupied in the Northern provinces. He would organize them in groups so that they could visit the liberated zones; this was after the liberated zones had emerged. It was after these visits that his critics and opponents would say “Our struggle has advanced like this after all.” There were some people who had not been to the interior. There were others who had never been to the Rovuma River or near the border. However, many people stopped praising other wars and also stopped saying that our struggle was in a stalemate. Some of his critics noted that much work had been done. In fact, we could reach a stalemate if there weren’t any efforts to raise people’s political consciousness. Of course, the political meetings in Nachingwea helped raise the political consciousness and motivation of cadres who were involved in combat operations in the interior and in the Northern provinces. Those meetings also helped encourage the population to be involved in the struggle and this helped advance the struggle. They also knew that they were not supposed to target [infrastructure], for example, the Cahora Bassa Dam. They knew that they could not attack the dam because they had received orders from Mondlane. We would move our soldiers close to the dam as if we are going to attack it and the Portuguese troops would concentrate their troops in those areas around the dam, and we would avoid engaging with the Portuguese troops and instead open a new front in Manica. This is exactly what happened. They [the Portuguese troops] moved their soldiers to the area around the dam and concentrated their troops there thinking that we, FRELIMO, would attack Cahora Bassa Dam. However, we had clear instructions and orders and all soldiers who fought in Tete knew that it was a place not to be attacked. We fought in various places not far from the dam, but we would not attack the dam. It was only later that the Portuguese troops realized that we had crossed the Zambezi river and we were advancing the struggle to Manica. The struggle in Manica moved very quickly and we were moving into Sofala and Inhambane. It was during this time that the Lusaka talks accelerated because they had realized that the Gordian Knot Operation had failed. They were defeated during the Gordian Knot Operation and they could not succeed in winning the war. They had to surrender. Following a FRELIMO military assault at the Portuguese military headquarters in Cabo Delgado, the Portuguese troops fled in despair leaving everything behind. They left everything behind.
After the coup d’etat of 25 th April, Samora…?
Yes, there were talks; the talks accelerated and we were watching the political moves of the Portuguese right wing group, the one that was involved in disturbances after April 25th [in Lourenço Marques]. Some of them were former colleagues of Veloso, some were his acquaintances and they included high military officers including generals. So the [peace] talks accelerated. However, we must say that the coup d’etat of 25 de Abril [April 25th] was not the cause of Mozambican independence. The colonial army was defeated and the Gordian Knot Operation had dismally failed. People know this very well. Kaúlza de Arriaga was defeated; his plans failed. After this military failure, they didn’t achieve any other military success and this was what accelerated the [peace] talks. They went to Dar es Salaam to start the peace talks. But these talks didn’t start in September; these talks began much earlier in Dar es Salaam and it was during these initial talks that an agreement was reached to transfer to Lusaka, in Zambia. The Zambian government had agreed to hold the conversations on their territory. By then, things were much clearer; victory was certain because our goal was to fight until we reached here, Lourenço Marques, and entered the [city] with the flag in our hands. So I think that the Portuguese colonial army realized that if we penetrated Gaza, which is very close to Maputo, it would be very catastrophic. There was hatred…
Where did you ….?
I think I was in Nachingwea. I think this was in March or April. The majority of cadres including Chipande, Mabote, and Guebuza were preparing for the conversations in Lusaka. It was when Samora called me from Mtwara. The headquarters of my health services was located at Mtwara, and I had just arrived from Tete. This was in January. I was in Tete in January of 1973 where I was doing some surgical operations. It was during this time that I was organizing other things and was told that I was going to be transferred to Nachingwea. So I eventually went to Nachingwea in February or March. We kept working and you know his habit of placing people. He [Samora Machel] would invite people for a trip, including me, and we would visit training centers, our fields, and we would talk during the trip. The trip was on foot. We would travel on foot while talking and he would ask “what do you see?” He had already made up his mind and he would tell you, “You stay here as a leader.” So he would replace and appoint people in this way. It was not easy for people to know that someone was appointed to replace another person and that someone was appointed to serve in a different province or in the interior of the country. It was a secret. If there was a unit going out, it would leave secretly in the evening. The unit would do military exercises at the military training center before departure; this was their way of bidding farewell. At dawn, when people were still sleeping, the Tanzanian trucks would be used to transport FRELIMO soldiers who were taken away from the military camp. No one would notice these movements because people were sleeping. I stayed with him [Samora] and he would give instructions such as “Listen, you will be responsible for this camp. There will be meetings outside the country. Some cadres will depart and you will remain here with your fellow comrades.” I was an instructor and had fellow comrades like Tobias, Mavota, the old fellow Somo, and other instructors. I was the main chief and worked with my fellow comrades; we worked together. It was during this period that I was appointed. After the victory of telecommunications in Nachingwea and as a field chief, I could see all the military operations. I also encouraged them to speed up the military operations because we were involved in negotiations with the Portuguese. There was a moment when [the Portuguese general António de] Spinola wanted to delay the negotiations and create some confusion and Samora told me, “Look, increase the military operations.” This message was designed to affect the Portuguese negatively and make them more flexible. They knew that we had already crossed the Zambezi River and were moving quickly to many places. He [Samora] also said that “This war is going to reach Lourenço Marques.” With these statements, the Portuguese became more flexible and were quick to take some decisions. While the negotiations were taking place, I remained in the center. It was when the secondary students started to come and there were also university students arriving in Nachingwea for training. They were recruited by cadres who had studied abroad and had received training long time ago. After [the training], they were sent to the provinces to select cadres with secondary school education. My task was to welcome these students and organize their training. We had to speed up the process and had received instructions to do so. Samora returned there [Tanzania] and was one of the last to leave there because we had planned the trip from Rovuma to Maputo in 1975.
Did you see Samora leaving Tanzania? Did you follow his trip [from Rovuma to Maputo]?
No. I was the head of the center. As head of the center, I was responsible for the units and the prisoners of war. I mean they were not prisoners of war. What do we call them? I mean the anti-revolutionaries of the time such as Urias [Simango], Gwendjere and others.
Did they go there in 1975?
Samora bid farewell in 1975
No, the traitors…
Ah, they were there. They came one by one to Nachingwea in 1974 because the Transition government had been established. Some of them had been imprisoned and I don’t know where. I would receive information about the arrival of a person at a particular time. They were received somewhere in the evening and no one saw them including myself. I only saw them when President Samora showed them to the public. Some of them had deserted and had joined the Portuguese. I don’t know how they were caught and brought to us. However, our task was to welcome and hide them. During this period, they only bathed in the evening. During the day, FRELIMO soldiers didn’t know anything about them. The soldiers and cadres didn’t know anything except for the head of the center and some security members. No one knew about this, and this was the problem. But before, when he [Samora] saw how things were, he introduced them to all of the units there. He would bring each individual for each meeting, and he would introduce them in this way “This one is.…” Some people fainted; those who were in favor of Simango fainted; those who were in favor of Gwenjere fainted; and the same for Kavandame because they didn’t know that they were there. They didn’t know they were there.
After the meeting, were the prisoners kept locked up so that no one could see them or did they receive different treatment?
No. However, after the meeting, they were a little bit aware, but they still didn’t know where they were. They didn’t know that they were at the training center.
Did they remain locked up or did they have different activities?
No, no, they remained locked in during the day. But they had activities, they had activities. There was always someone who could not leave, but others could go to work on the roads. This was when Nyerere and Kaunda would come. It was in preparation to return the camp to Nyerere and his cadres before the departure of Samora. So there was a great deal of organizing going on. They would come to see the machambas [fields] that we had made; they [Nyerere and his cabinet members] would come to see the lagoons we had made, the fish farms, and everything else including roads, buildings, etc. They [the prisoners] worked on such projects except for Simango and Kavandame who were old people. They could not work on such projects despite the fact that they were in detention. However, there were some people who did that. People like Joana Simião didn’t do so; she couldn’t do that. Things were clearly divided; there was separation of issues. They remained in a restricted area only; they would go out for sunshine, but it was within a restricted area where soldiers could not go either. No one was allowed to get close to find out who those people were. There was heavy security and they were watched very closely. This is what happened. When this was over Nyerere, who was traveling in southern Tanzania, arranged a meeting with Kenneth Kaunda to meet with his officers and generals. There was a big party and it was then the traitors were released to be shown. The traitors were released and shown to Nyerere and Kaunda. As you know, Samora was a very energetic person and you can imagine [what it was like] when he introduced each one of them. He also took the opportunity to talk about the contribution of each one of them during the struggle. It was a very interesting event for some people, and it was shocking for other people who had sided with Simango. It was a very dramatic moment and some people could hardly accept the facts.
You arrived in Maputo on June 25 th ; did those prisoners come or did they remain there?
No, they didn’t come. When I left they remained there.
Who kept them? Were they under arrest by the Mozambican troops?
They were under arrest by one of our groups which had remained there. We had soldiers that took care of them. They stayed there with some of the cadres of my group who knew what to do. Of course, there wasn’t much time. They didn’t stay there very long…. I came here with some soldiers.
When you arrived in the country, what was the first task that you were assigned?
After the independence, I was still close to the units. I was still close to the units after the independence.
Did you go to Boane camp?
Yes, my first assignment was as chief of the Boane military headquarters and training camp. Many soldiers, perhaps most of them, who came from Nachingwea were still under my command because I knew them, although they were initially in different military headquarters [before the independence]. However, after the country’s independence, to be precise, in July of 1975, there was a defense meeting at Clube Militar; this meeting was in July. Shortly after the meeting, I was appointed as head of the Boane military headquarters or training center. This appointment came after I had visited the military headquarters. The appointment was confirmed during lunch time. How long did you hold that position?
I hold that position until 1976 because it was then Samora appointed me as the governor of Niassa. It was when I left Boane and went to Niassa. Boane had become like Nachingwea. From July 1975 to March 1976, the center was transformed. We were self- reliant in meat, vegetables, and cereals. We used to sell meat in the logistic depot which was close to the cemetery.
I know that Samora went to visit the center. How often did he visit the center?
Yes, he did. He went to visit it and he was very happy. The training exercises were going on very well and we also had alphabetization courses in order to increase the instruction level of our cadres. There were some rebellions when we created the classrooms, and I was the head of the center at the time. That was also when acts of rebellion (javalism) started to take place. If you find documents that talk about “javalism,” they refer to that period because it was then the word was coined. There were statements like “You’re javalis, this is javalism. Not wanting to study: during war time you were studying and increasing your academic knowledge; during the time of war, you didn’t need this. It is only a javali can think like this.” This is how “javalism” was born.
It was Samora himself who coined the term…?
Yes, he was the one. Everyone who was involved in the mutiny was arrested and sent to Ilha de Moçambique. They were sent to Mozambique Island, which is how the mutiny came to an end. However, the instruction started very well. From the railroad, you could see green machambas (fields). There was a big green area covered with fields. We also created our own polygon for training purposes.
Did you have frequent meetings with Samora during that time?
When I was the head of the military headquarters and training center, Alberto Chipande would come to visit the center very often. Samora didn’t come very often because he was busy with other tasks. He didn’t visit the military headquarters very much; much of the time he would stay in Maputo because he was against those who sat on the walls.
What were your feelings about Samora Machel after the independence? You knew Samora from here, was he a very close friend? Looking at his career, did you always consider him as your friend even after the independence?
Yes. As I said Samora was always my friend. When Samora ran off [to Tanzania], his mother suffered a heart attack, and I was still around here. That was the first time I met Samora’s mother.
I am sorry, can you repeat that? I said that when Samora fled to Tanzania, his mother who was here at the time suffered a heart attack. She was taken to the emergency room (reanimation) where my wife was working. My wife was working as a nurse for intensive care and it was through her that I came to know Samora’s mother. With this information, I just want to say that from the time that we were studying in the nursing school and from the experiences of suffering that we went through as student nurses, Samora and I developed a very close friendship as brothers. The late Craveirinha talked about his involvement in defense of nurses and in helping to solve their problems. Craveirinha and Luís Bernardo also worked with us in addressing the injustices experienced by nurses. These experiences helped to build a close friendship between me and Samora. We became very close friends and our friendship resembled a relationship between brothers. I don’t have any reasons to complain. And this friendship, this connection and intimacy between Samora and I, and between Samora, my wife and me could not be forgotten. When my wife-to-be and I were still dating, we chose Samora to be our counselor, and he served as such until when we got married. He would give us advice on many issues and we could never forget Samora Machel. So I wouldn’t forget Samora during the war and he wouldn’t do that either. He didn’t look on me as better than everyone else; no, he didn’t do that. He addressed everyone in the same way without paying attention to social and economic status, which was a very common practice among people working in the health services. He didn’t look at the status of the person and he addressed people in the way we do in our profession. However, I always felt comfortable next to Samora. There is no doubt about that. I always felt very comfortable close to him. Since President Mondlane didn’t know me very well, he would ask Samora about me and Samora would talk about me with Mondlane. Samora knew me as young man. When I arrived in Tanzania, I was entrusted with the mission of taking care of Mondlane’s children, particularly when he and his wife were absent. You know how kids behave. There is an expression in English which I think is godfather that describes my role. When Mondlane was gone or when Janet was gone, Josina and I would stay at their home with their children and sometimes Polly Gaster was also present. So, I was entrusted with this mission because of the information that Samora provided to Mondlane. I went to Nachingwea to comply with his orders. He decided that I had to go to Nachingwea, and I didn’t have anything to complain about. I don’t have anything to regret. When we celebrated our silver wedding (25th wedding anniversary) after the independence, he [Samora] was our godfather and it caused some noise with some people making statements such as “It is because he is the godson of the president, that’s why he can take one of the presidency’s cars.” Those who were present saw that we had been given a car from the presidential palace with an emblem. We traveled in a presidential car and we went to Tunduru garden as part of the celebrations. He [Samora] was the godfather. He was convinced that the godson of the president could not travel in just any car and that’s why he took the decision of having us travel in one of the presidential cars. Many people liked his decision, but they were others who didn’t. It is true that his decision created some problems among his [cabinet members]. I didn’t have anything to complain about; I didn’t have anything to do with his decision because my wife and I were simply his godchildren. So, during all this period we felt comfortable. Samora always took care of us, my wife and me. He knew us very well. Besides, my wife and I took care of Graça when she was a young adult. I lived with Titos Simbine for a long time; he was my colleague; he was like my younger brother. I also got to know Graça when she was a very young student. My wife and I had different goals for Graça, but such intentions were not fulfilled. Our goals were not fulfilled because we noticed that my brother was an irresponsible person and it was useless trying to [make them get closer to each other]. That’s why Graça is the godmother of my daughter, Aurélia. [When she was born] I was not around. These are the reasons why we wanted to have Graça close to us; she was a very disciplined, well-behaved, and religious girl. With regard to my relationship with Samora, we were always friends from the time when we were nursing students, in Nachingwea, and after the independence. There was always an intimacy between us. There is no doubt about that.
Irene Buque and your wife went to meet you in Dar es Salaam.
They arrived in August of 1974 …
What happened ………………………………………. ?
Well, I can say that I was coming back from Nachingwea when I was called. They were in Dar es Salaam, and I was already the chief of Nachingwea [military and political training center]. I was called to Dar es Salaam for work and I was not told that my wife was there. I spent a week without knowing where my wife was. The problem was they [FRELIMO members] wanted to investigate them. They wanted to know who they were and when they realized that they didn’t have evil intentions, then they put me in touch with my wife. I don’t know what happened between Samora and Irene. I don’t know, but Irene stayed where Samora was living. He had a residential house there. I only went there to greet her or to have my meals. He [Samora] found ways to have me and my wife together; he knew us very well. My wife was a nurse; Irene and my wife were nurses and they would talk about Lourenço Marques, and Irene was with his daughter with Samora, Ornilia, who is also my goddaughter. This is what happened and there was nothing else.