Debates of the Senate

2nd SESSION . 41st PARLIAMENT . VOLUME 149 . NUMBER 51

OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)

Wednesday, April 9, 2014

The Honourable NOËL A. KINSELLA Speaker CONTENTS

(Daily index of proceedings appears at back of this issue).

Debates Services: D’Arcy McPherson, National Press Building, Room 906, Tel. 613-995-5756 Publications Centre: David Reeves, National Press Building, Room 926, Tel. 613-947-0609

Published by the Senate Available on the Internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca 1343

THE SENATE Wednesday, April 9, 2014

The Senate met at 1:30 p.m., the Speaker in the chair. except one who is still fighting in the Congo as chief of staff of the brigade, another who is a security officer in Yemen, and the last Prayers. one who was absent because he committed suicide five years ago. I want to thank our commander-in-chief, the Governor SENATORS’ STATEMENTS General, for receiving us and for acknowledging through him and his wife the concerns of the operational stress injuries incurred by those who try to go in and assist. RWANDAN GENOCIDE I wish to thank Speaker Kinsella for receiving us in his quarters TWENTIETH ANNIVERSARY for a lunch and for taking the time here to explain the extraordinary room to those who were injured with me who Hon. Roméo Antonius Dallaire: Honourable senators, this week appreciated the opportunity to sit in the Red Chamber and to be marks the twentieth anniversary of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. so educated and recognized as Canadians. On this occasion, we mourn the dead and we celebrate the courage of the survivors, those who bear the weight of history and I wish to thank the Speaker of the House of Commons, Andrew the physical, emotional and psychological wounds from this Scheer, for letting the house also recognize us at the end of unimaginable horror. Question Period. I must say that one of my colleagues said, ‘‘This reminds me of some of the negotiations we were having for This is also a time for deep reflections on what we must learn ceasefires during the Rwandan genocide.’’ from the legacy of that terrible spring in 1994. First, there is the acknowledgement of the value of all humans as being worthy of I wish to thank Senator Day for his statement on that day. our care, compassion and, where necessary, our protection, as the world failed to observe in Rwanda at the time of the genocide. I want to thank members of all political parties who took the opportunity to mark this occasion in both chambers, MP As I have said in this chamber before, all humans are human; Belanger in particular. I want to thank the Mayor of Montreal, no one human is more human than any other. Denis Coderre, who organized a remembrance event that was second to none. A second thing to learn is the need for serious leadership on the world stage to ensure that the mistakes of Rwanda, Darfur, I want to thank the survivors and associations that continue to Congo, and now Syria and the Central African Republic are not show courage and leadership throughout the remembrance continuously growing or being repeated by the international process. And I want to thank you, my colleagues, for being so community. generous with your concerns towards me.

We are in serious need of the presence not of political elites but Thank you. of statesmen — people who have the flexibility of mind, the humility and the courage to take risks in order to intervene early and with innovative thoughts that curtail such catastrophes. On BATTLE OF VIMY RIDGE this subject, our country has reasons to celebrate: as examples, the contribution of Canadian diplomats to the adoption of the NINETY-SEVENTH ANNIVERSARY responsibility-to-protect principles, to the creation of the International Criminal Court through the Rome Statute, and to Hon. Daniel Lang: Today, Canada’s flag flies at half-mast as we other efforts to promote peace and security throughout the world. pay tribute to a generation of Canadians from across this nation We were intelligentsia in the UN and are recognized by the world. who on this day 97 years ago converged on a ridge in France It is time for our country to return to that proud heritage and called Vimy. Now that we have entered the era where the provide the international community with these assets. memories of the gallant are no longer heard but now only read and seen in paintings such as we have here in the Senate chamber, Third, it is our duty to remember and reject revisionism and it is incumbent upon us to bear witness to their devotion and duty genocide denial, which, as scholarship has shown, work only to in their own words. reinjure those who have been wounded in these awful tragedies. I have been drawn over the past few days to the remembrances Colleagues, let me end my remarks with a few words of thanks of Canon F.G. Scott, Padre of 1st Canadian Division. He for all those who continue to stand with us in these difficult times recalled: of remembrance and who, with concrete gestures, have helped mark the sombre anniversary throughout the country. I thank Never was the spirit of comradeship higher in the Canadian first my colleagues from the Rwandan mission who travelled to Corps. Never was there a greater sense of unity. The task Ottawa this weekend to mark the occasion of that catastrophic laid upon us was a tremendous one, but in the heart of each mission and the impact on them and their families. All came, man, from private to general, was the determination that it 1344 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014

should be performed. On that Easter night, the battalions Canada sent nearly 700,000 soldiers. Of that number, took their places in the line. The men at the guns, which had 68,000 lost their lives — most of them are buried in Flanders hitherto been conceal and kept silent, were ready to open and France — and more than 280,000 were injured. Nearly 10 per fire at zero hour, and all along that front the eager heart of cent of the Canadian population at the time served in the war. Canada waited impatiently for the dawn. That is a huge number for a country that was fighting on foreign soil. . (1340) In total, 39,000 French Canadians served in the armed forces. Honourable senators, Canadians broke that dawn with an Of those soldiers, 21,470 were Quebecers and 8,750 were Acadians indomitable fighting spirit, one that has been instilled among all and francophones from elsewhere in the country. There is little those who continue to serve our Crown and country. known about their participation even today. Few historians have focused on it, even though they made such a remarkable And as we remember today where a grand and vast nation contribution. stood first as Canada, we will never forget that courage and sacrifice that bore our nation one of its finest hours. Quite early in the war, Canada realized that it needed to create a unit for unilingual French Canadians, so that they could be Padre Scott wrote after the battle, and upon meeting a British trained and commanded in French. Thus, the 22nd Infantry staff officer on his way to headquarters from the front line, the Battalion was created. After the war, it became known as the officer asked him if he was a Canadian. When he replied yes, the Royal 22e Régiment. Our colleague, Senator Dallaire, is a officer replied, ‘‘I congratulate you upon it.’’ But with a typical distinguished representative of that regiment. Canadian modesty, he reminded the officer that the British artillery fought alongside the four Canadian divisions. This battalion distinguished itself at the Battle of Vimy Ridge, which we are commemorating today, April 9. It is a victory that The British officer replied, ‘‘That may be, but never since the has remained one of Canada’s finest military moments. world began have men made a charge with a finer spirit.’’ Honourable senators, what do these events tell us about God save our Queen and God bless Canada. ourselves, about how we define our connection to Canada and our connection to France, England and America? [Translation] I would like to conclude by saying that next fall, the Canada- WORLD WAR I France Interparliamentary Association, led by our colleagues, Senators Claudette Tardif and Michel Rivard, will sponsor a joint ROLE OF FRENCH CANADIANS commemorative symposium with French parliamentarians. The first public session will be held here, in Parliament, during the week of November 11. This interparliamentary symposium will Hon. Serge Joyal: Honourable senators, last Friday, at my give us an opportunity to reassess the understanding that we have, own expense, I attended a commemorative symposium on 100 years later, of the Great War — the ‘‘Der des Ders’’ as it’s World War I in Paris, at the Hôtel national des invalides, which known in German — so that current generations, who live in a houses the military museum. The theme of the symposium was different reality, can remember. It will also help us better Quebec’s participation in the war. understand why it is important to keep a close connection with the past and what it takes to maintain peace in contemporary Thirteen French and Canadian historians spoke. I want to share times. some figures about this war, which are absolutely staggering to think of now. VIOLENCE AGAINST CHILDREN AND YOUTH In total, there were more than 120 million people involved in the war on both sides. Of those, 15 million died and 34 million Hon. Jacques Demers: Honourable senators, I would like to were injured. begin by mentioning that my speech will include some dates from the past, but I will explain the reasons for that. It is difficult to imagine the scope of that devastation today. [English] The war was fought in mud-filled trenches that stretched for thousands of kilometres along the front lines, and in an attempt to I would like to sincerely thank both sides for their tremendous move forward a few hundred metres, thousands of soldiers would efforts for young children who are battered and killed. lose their lives, often needlessly, as troops ended up back where they started. [Translation] Canada, as a dominion within the British Empire, was automatically involved in the war, although it was able to On November 30, 2002, Jeffrey Baldwin, a five-year-old boy choose how many soldiers and how much equipment it would living in Toronto, died tragically. Starved, neglected, beaten, little send. Jeffrey died at the hands of his violent grandparents after a short

[ Senator Lang ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1345 life. This case was settled 20 years after the fact, which is why I [English] had to turn the clock back so far. I know we are not in the United States, but I will mention a On December 6, 2008, young Jérémy Bastien-Perron died at the boy, who was not quite five this year, and was killed. It happens hands of his stepmother. He was severely beaten and hit on the not because it is a mistake; it happens everywhere in Canada. The head 37 times before succumbing to his injuries. Here again, this father was in jail and he left the child to his girlfriend. She put him case was settled much later. outside naked on the balcony twice when the temperature was 20 degrees below zero. Eventually, with abuse, he died. No [English] sympathy, no cries. I stand before you as one of those children. I’m not looking for Every year Statistics Canada publishes a report entitled Family anything else but to ask you to stand up as well. You are so Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile. Their most recent report powerful and capable of doing that. Thank you very much for highlights some troubling facts: Violence against children is still listening to me. widely underreported, especially for children between the ages of zero to six years old since they’re unable or reluctant to seek help at such a young age. Children and youth are five times more likely . (1350) to be sexually abused or physically abused. NATIONAL VOLUNTEER WEEK Family members account for one quarter of those accused of violence against children and youth. Infants and toddlers are most Hon. Catherine S. Callbeck: Honourable senators, I’m very likely to be victimized by family members and, as I mentioned, pleased to say a few words today on the subject of National these crimes go unreported for the most part. The rate of family Volunteer Week. homicide is high for infants between the ages of one and three, and shaken baby syndrome is the most common death within the age group. Less than half of family violence incidents result in Beginning in 1943, to honour the contributions of women charges, most often because of a lack of sufficient evidence to during the Second World War, National Volunteer Week has press charges. grown into a cross-country celebration to recognize and honour the tremendous contributions of Canadian volunteers. [Translation] In honour of this week, Volunteer Canada has established the Volunt-Hear Hotline, which is a toll-free number where people Jeffrey and Jérémy were five years old. Statistics show that the can call to leave a brief message, thanking volunteers and older the child is, the more likely it is that the abuse will be expressing how volunteers have made a difference in their lives. reported to the police. Again, the most vulnerable age group is 0 It’s a wonderful opportunity to thank Canadian volunteers to 6, a period when children are very dependent on their parents personally for their hard work and dedication to their and unable or afraid to report the abuse. communities and to their country.

This means that we must come together in our communities and Every day, from coast to coast to coast, volunteers give of their equip ourselves to be as vigilant as possible in looking for the time and their energy in service to others. They may drive people signs and symptoms of child abuse. This is especially true in the to cancer treatments or coach at a hockey practice. They may case of infants and toddlers. Unfortunately, they cannot protect camp with the Girl Guides or teach guitar lessons at a Boys and themselves or report their abusers. Girls Club. They may canvass for a charitable organization or provide hospice care to an ailing senior. [English] All in all, Statistics Canada tells us that more than 13 million It’s all of us. In my opinion, after five years here, senators are Canadians, nearly half the adult population, have volunteered to very powerful. We have a lot of friends. We must talk about this work with a voluntary organization or have helped out regularly, subject because most of the time, in all of the abuse that I have providing services or supports to others in their community. looked at, people said they knew but were afraid to express These dedicated people volunteer for more than 2 billion hours a themselves or come forward. That’s very sad. year, which is the equivalent of nearly 1.1 million full-time jobs.

[Translation] As I have proudly pointed out in the past, Islanders have been recognized for their dedication and hard work in the volunteer sector. Prince Edward Island has the second highest volunteer The adults around children have a responsibility to protect rate in the country. Fifty-six per cent of our adult population them. We can prevent deaths like Jeffrey’s and Jérémy’s in the volunteer in some way in their communities and beyond. In total, future by being aware of what constitutes abuse and by being all that volunteering accounts for more than 9 million hours, or proactive instead of reactive when we have doubts about a child’s the equivalent of about 4,500 full-time jobs. safety. Honourable senators, please join me in thanking all volunteers, Let’s work together to ensure that the Jérémys and Jeffreys of both in my home province of Prince Edward Island and across the tomorrow do not become a statistic. country, for their commitment, generosity of spirit and 1346 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 tremendous hard work. They are truly the lifeblood of our [English] communities.

[Translation] QUESTION PERIOD

RWANDAN GENOCIDE DEMOCRATIC REFORM FAIR ELECTIONS BILL TWENTIETH ANNIVERSARY Hon. Jane Cordy: Honourable senators, I am proud today to Hon. Andrée Champagne: Honourable senators, on April 7, ask a question that I have received from political science student 1994, humanity witnessed one of its most lamentable failures. In Jennifer Perimal, from Vancouver, who I believe is sitting in the the space of 100 days, 800,000 people were killed as the whole gallery. world looked on. It was the fastest genocide in history; the number of people killed every day was unprecedented. I believe Jennifer is in the gallery. We’ve never met. Welcome to the Senate of Canada, and thank you very much for your interest On April 7, 1994, humanity failed Rwanda, humanity failed in politics and for taking the time to write a question to us that we Rwandans, and humanity failed the entire human race. That can ask in the Senate of Canada. failure is mine, it is yours and it is ours. We let a country get swept up in violence and cut short the lives of fathers, mothers, brothers, Jennifer’s question is for the Leader of the Government in the sisters, sons and daughters, people like you and me who just Senate: wanted to live their lives. Bill C-23’s anti-vouching provisions will eliminate a As president of the Assemblée parlementaire de la significant number of otherwise eligible voters, who may Francophonie, I would like to express my sympathy for and be well-intentioned citizens who were too busy to update the solidarity with the Rwandan people on this, the 20th anniversary address on their ID. Do you think this is fair? What would of the genocide. I would also like to applaud the Rwandan people you say to a young student eager to cast their vote and for their resilience and the considerable progress they have contribute to our functioning democracy, but who is achieved over the past two decades. undergoing residential transition during elections and gets turned away because of your new law? Women’s rights have advanced dramatically, homosexuality [Translation] has been decriminalized, and the death penalty has been abolished. There is still a lot to do, and I know that Canada is Hon. Claude Carignan (Leader of the Government): ready to support Rwanda alongside the APF and other I would like parliamentary associations. I truly believe that dialogue among to thank Senator Cordy for her question, which I believe I have peoples and among parliamentarians can prevent a failure like already answered. April 7, 1994, from ever happening again. There is now a pre-study being done of Bill C-23, which requires voters to show one of 39 pieces of ID to identify themselves and Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! validate their address. Identifying oneself is obviously an essential condition for exercising the right to vote.

In any electoral reform process, it is important to maintain public confidence in the law and the results. Therefore, we must ensure that the legislative provisions encourage people to exercise ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS their right to vote and that public confidence in the results is also protected.

ADJOURNMENT Any reasonable person who wants to exercise their right to vote can certainly provide one of the 39 pieces of ID or one of the proofs of address listed in the bill. I have already read them out. I NOTICE OF MOTION do not know if you would like me to repeat them, but I imagine you do not. I have children in university who sometimes move. Hon. Yonah Martin (Deputy Leader of the Government): There is a multitude of documents they can use as proof of their Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of address. the Senate, I will move: . (1400) That, when the Senate next adjourns after the adoption of [English] this motion, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, April 29, 2014, at 2 p.m. Senator Cordy: As a follow-up in my own words, we’ve had witness after witness testify on the house side and on the Senate side in our pre-study. We’ve had expert after expert testify on the

[ Senator Callbeck ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1347 house side and on the Senate side. We’ve had a letter signed by Yesterday at committee, I was surprised when Senator McInnis 160 academic experts in the field of political science. They all said said that he personally had witnessed thousands and thousands of there’s a problem with this bill. questionable votes on the streets of Dartmouth and Halifax. I’ve lived in Dartmouth since 1975. I have voted in every provincial I would ask again what Jennifer was asking. Like you, my and federal election in my riding of Dartmouth. I voted when daughters didn’t attend university in Dartmouth or Halifax. They Senator McInnis ran as the Conservative candidate in my riding. I attended a university out of town. Elections came up while they voted when Senator MacDonald ran as the Conservative were out of town. They were able to vote not because they had candidate in my riding. I didn’t vote for either of them, mind anything going to their address at the university residence but you, but I did vote in those elections. because somebody was able to vouch for one of my daughters who was in the residence of St. Francis Xavier University in Nova I worked in many of those elections between 1975 and 2014, Scotia. She voted because someone was able to vouch for her. and I’ve not seen thousands and thousands of irregularities on the streets of Dartmouth. I’ve not witnessed thousands and What do you say to the young student who is eager to vote? thousands of irregularities that Senator McInnis has witnessed We’ve done all this work trying to promote young people voting. in Dartmouth. For many university students, it’s their first time voting and they’re proud of that. They don’t have anything with their address If your government feels that one of your caucus colleagues has because they’re living in a university residence and the bills are seen thousands and thousands of irregularities, would you not going to their parents’ home address. They don’t have anything recommend that they let Elections Canada know about this? being sent to them at their university residence. [Translation] What would you say to a young student who is eager to cast their vote? Senator Carignan: Senator, you mentioned irregularities. [Translation] Reports have shown that there were many irregularities with the use of vouching. In fact, the senator who is sitting just three seats away from you said herself a few days ago that she had been the Senator Carignan: I would say that the 39th document on the victim of an irregularity and that someone had voted in her name. list allows students to use a student residence document. Students It seems to me that you have reliable witnesses very close to you can also use the admission form on which they gave their local who have said that identity theft exists in the electoral system, and address where they are studying. There are a number of that is unacceptable. The bill seeks to restore people’s trust so that documents on the list that show students’ addresses. They they have confidence in the electoral process and in the fairness include bills for utilities — telephone, cable — and for public and lawfulness of the results. utilities — electricity, natural gas and water. [English] When I was a student in Sherbrooke, I received an electricity bill. I had also signed a lease, which showed the address where I was living in Sherbrooke. If students want to exercise their right Senator Cordy: Even if every senator in this chamber — to vote and they live somewhere other than at their parents’ home, they can use documents from among the 39 documents on the list, Senator McInnis: Can I rise on a point of privilege? many of which can be used to prove their address. If they are renting a room, they still have to sign a lease and they can get a document certifying their address. Senator Cordy: Not during Question Period.

Voting is a constitutional right. When we want to exercise that Even if every senator in this place said that they had seen an right, we must prove our identity and address. Requiring this irregularity, that would not be thousands and thousands of identification seems reasonable to me. The ultimate goal of all this irregularities in one vote. This is just for one riding of Dartmouth is to maintain public confidence in the Canadian electoral system. and Halifax, another riding.

[English] I’d like to know whether the member of your caucus has documented proof of these irregularities that he has personally Senator Cordy: Thank you for the response. witnessed. If so, perhaps you could suggest that he appear as a witness before the committee. Many of the pieces of identification you mentioned don’t have an address on them. A passport doesn’t have an address, and the [Translation] health card in Nova Scotia doesn’t have an address. I will move to something else related to the bill. Senator Carignan: Senator, you are trying to make the debate personal. I believe that one of the witnesses who appeared today, To support this government’s misguided attempt to eliminate an expert from the United Kingdom, said that we should not voter vouching policies, members of the Conservative government make it personal. I think we need to get back to the subject of the have made accusations of widespread voting irregularities. We bill, examine it in its entirety and look at the goal of the heard comments from Mr. Butt, a Conservative member of provisions. I think it is a good bill. The committee is studying it. Parliament, who later retracted a statement that he had personally The Senate committee and the House of Commons committee are witnessed cases of voter irregularities. both examining it. If you have any amendments to propose, you 1348 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 can make suggestions that will be included in the report sent to I’m quite sure I’ve voted in even more elections than Senator the House of Commons. I think it is a good thing for the Senate Cordy. This happened to me once. I have told the story many and the House to work together to improve the bill. times in the years since it happened, and I’m always greeted with incredulity because nobody to whom I have spoken has ever experienced any such thing. One thing is certain. If you ask people anywhere in Canada whether they think it is important for people to have to show ID to vote, you will see that almost everyone thinks that it is essential The point I was trying to make was that, yes, in a free and to do so. democratic system on occasion there will be some abuses, and that is a price we pay for keeping our system as free and keeping [English] the ability to vote as accessible as we possibly can. I said at the time that I did not think my own experience — at the time I didn’t think and I don’t think it now — was worth appealing for a BUSINESS OF THE SENATE change in the law.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, as you would I would therefore ask Senator Carignan if he would kindly, the expect me to meet my responsibilities in the maintenance of order, next time he’s defending the bill, choose another example. I draw all honourable senators’ attention to revised rule 2-11 of the Rules of the Senate, at page 6 of the new publication, which Some Hon. Senators: Hear, hear. speaks to the process that must be followed when there are visitors in the gallery. It says: [Translation] A Senator who wishes to call attention to the presence in the gallery of a distinguished visitor shall give the Speaker Hon. Claude Carignan (Leader of the Government): I try to use written notice to that effect. The Speaker may then inform the most eloquent examples — the Senate accordingly and offer words of welcome. Some Hon. Senators: Oh, oh! . (1410) Senator Carignan: I thought this example was appropriate, but I The words are very similar to the previous publication of our will try to find others. I do not know if there are other colleagues Rules, which said: who have experienced this and would like to say so.

Senators wishing to draw the attention of the Senate to [English] the presence in the gallery of a distinguished visitor shall do so by prior written notice to the Speaker. The Speaker shall, when the visitor is in the gallery, rise and draw the attention Hon. James S. Cowan (Leader of the Opposition): I agree with of the Senate to the presence in the gallery of that visitor. Senator Carignan that in something like this it is always a question of balance. In designing laws like this, one has to balance the need to prevent irregularity, on the one hand, with, on the I must encourage all honourable senators to follow the Rules of other, the need to encourage people to exercise their right to vote. the Senate when they wish to have a visitor recognized in the I’m sure he would agree with me on that. gallery. Allegations, reports and comments have been made about large Hon. Jane Cordy: I would like to apologize to you, Your numbers of irregularities, large numbers of people who are Honour, for having welcomed somebody to the gallery. I will try impersonating others and voting improperly, and the very hard not to do that ever again. government’s response is to eliminate vouching. That has provoked a reaction from many people who say that that’s the wrong way to go, that that’s an overreaction. DEMOCRATIC REFORM In order to put this into perspective and to enable us to strike FAIR ELECTIONS BILL the proper balance, Senator Carignan, I’m sure you don’t have this information at hand, but can you undertake to find out and report back to us as quickly as you can, before we’re asked to pass Hon. Joan Fraser (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): judgment on this bill, exactly how many reported cases of Colleagues, I suppose I could, if I wished, turn this into a irregularities there were in each of, say, the last two federal question of privilege, but I’d rather not. Senator Carignan has elections, how many prosecutions resulted from those allegations acquired a habit — for him, no doubt, a happy habit — of and how many convictions were recorded as a result of trials or referring to a reference I made some days ago in this place to the guilty pleas in such cases? fact that I had once been — once — been the victim of electoral fraud. He has done so several times now in Question Period. He is, I think, distorting the sense of what I was saying on that I think that would give us all a sense of perspective so that we occasion. can strike the proper balance between preventing irregularities,

[ Senator Carignan ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1349 preventing abuse and, at the same time, encouraging as many . (1420) people as possible to exercise their constitutional right to vote. [English] [Translation] NATIONAL REVENUE Senator Carignan: Senator, there is something that I feel is important. You mentioned irregularities. One report states that there were approximately 50,000 minor irregularities of different CANADA REVENUE AGENCY—SECURITY types. In a close vote, if these irregularities occur mainly in one riding, they could nullify the election. This report does exist and Hon. Leo Housakos: Honourable senators, my question is for you have read it. the Leader of the Government in the Senate.

However, trying to discuss specific cases also leads the debate Many honourable senators have no doubt heard of the Canada off track. The fact that charges were not laid does not mean that Revenue Agency’s decision to close e-filing accounts and tax the irregularities did not occur. I believe you would agree with me return applications as a precaution until they can be sure the risks on that. I believe that the bill seeks to ensure that the electoral have been eliminated arising from the new Heartbleed bug. system is as fair as possible, allows voters to exercise their right to vote with confidence and also allows them to trust the system. Could the Leader of the Government in the Senate inform all honourable senators and the people of Canada about Canada It seems to me that at the very least, people should be asked to Revenue Agency’s decision in regard to this and of the steps the identify themselves before they vote and should be able to provide government is taking to protect Canadians by ensuring that proof of their identity in order to exercise the constitutional right companies make their customers aware of online privacy to vote. I do not think it is too much to ask of anyone. There is a breaches? list of 39 documents that may be required. You heard Senator Cordy’s question earlier. It is easy. She gave the example of a [Translation] student who no longer lives at home. A student who no longer lives at home lives somewhere else and has a lease, telephone Hon. Claude Carignan (Leader of the Government): I would like service, hydro, or an Internet service agreement. There are no to thank the honourable senator for his excellent question. I don’t university students, or very few, who do not have a cellphone or think I am wrong in saying that this is one of the best questions Internet service, even if only for their work. asked by Canadians so far.

There are so many ways for a person to prove their address and Because of information received late yesterday evening about identity that I think that this is a very reasonable requirement, an international Internet security vulnerability — a virus dubbed considering how important it is to protect Canadians’ confidence the Heartbleed bug — the Canada Revenue Agency temporarily in the electoral system. blocked public access to its online services in order to safeguard the integrity of taxpayers’ personal information. [English] The services were blocked as a preventative measure. Senator Cowan: A supplementary, if I may, Your Honour: My Applications affected include EFILE, NETFILE, My Account question, Senator Carignan, was whether you would provide us and My Business Account. with the details. You mentioned irregularities. I think the figure you used was 50,000. Does that mean that 50,000 people voted who shouldn’t have voted? Perhaps they voted in the wrong place. The CRA recognizes that this problem may represent a Perhaps there was some other irregularity other than the fact that significant inconvenience for Canadians and is fully engaged in they were impersonating someone else or otherwise not entitled to resolving this matter and restoring online services as soon as vote. possible in a manner that ensures the private information of Canadians remains safe and secure. I’m not suggesting that that would be the only consideration that would enter our minds when we’re considering the striking of This incident will be taken into consideration if taxpayers are this balance, but can you obtain and provide to us the unable to file their income tax return on time because of this information that I requested? service interruption.

[Translation] I would like to take this opportunity to draw attention to the importance of Bill S-4, the Digital Privacy Act, which was Senator Carignan: It is difficult for me to answer your question introduced this week and would help protect Canadians by because if someone impersonated another person, we don’t know requiring companies to inform consumers if their personal who it was. You can ask Senator Fraser — I apologize to her for information has been stolen or compromised. mentioning her again — if she knows who voted in her place. No one knows. Someone presented herself as Joan Fraser and voted. According to clause 10(4), the notification must contain We don’t know who that person is, so we cannot charge her. You sufficient information to allow the individual to understand can’t try to pull out statistics on charges that were filed or not how significant the breach is to them and to take steps, if any are filed. The person who voted in someone else’s name used a false possible, to reduce the risk of harm that could result from it or to name, so it’s impossible to find out who it was. mitigate that harm. 1350 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014

This bill should allow us to achieve our goal of protecting What I said was, over my extensive political career and working personal information, but also protecting individuals from the on dozens of elections, that I have experienced voter fraud in consequences of such a breach. Halifax-Dartmouth, where I used to live. I used to drive people to the polls and so on. That is what I said. What is more, the Interim Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Chantal Bernier, said that she was pleased that the government To make an accusation that something else has been said, if my was addressing issues such as data breaches in Bill S-4. She said words — sometimes when we’re in questions, if they get rumbled that the bill contained some very positive measures for protecting together or whatever, I certainly did not say that. I was saying Canadians’ privacy. that about the country when I was talking about voter fraud in the thousands, alleged to have taken place, not in Halifax- This is something we take very seriously, with regard to the Dartmouth. Agency and the preventative measures taken to ensure that Canadians’ personal information cannot be stolen and used, as Unfortunately, because of comments like this, some person in well as the legislation that we have to study in the chamber to the media has reported it and has said that I made these protect Canadians from this type of breach of privacy. comments. I’ve been here today expecting that this might be raised and responding to dozens and dozens of emails on this. It’s EMPLOYMENT AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT amazing how a lie — you have heard the saying — can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots laced up. That’s pretty much the case here. PROTECTION OF PRIVACY

Hon. Pierrette Ringuette: Can the Leader of the Government in If my words were rumbled together, there was no intent the Senate tell us whether Bill S-4 will also apply to government, whatsoever, and I certainly would apologize with respect to that. as in the case of the student loans? Some information was lost and But that is not what I intended, and I do not believe that’s what I no one knows whose hands it ended up in. No one knows what said. type of protection will be provided for those students’ information. There cannot be a double standard. If you want to Hon. Jane Cordy: Thank you. I actually watched it. It was on impose certain things on businesses, then those things must also ‘‘Power and Politics’’ last night. I watched the video. I actually be imposed on government. wrote down the words that you said. I do know that you said: ‘‘I witnessed it personally on the streets of Halifax and Dartmouth. Hon. Claude Carignan (Leader of the Government): I thank the It’s a problem.’’ honourable senator for her question. As you noted, it is unacceptable that the department lost that information. We You referred to questionable votes, I think was the term that thank the Privacy Commissioner for her work. The department you used. I don’t have the written document in front of me. I just accepted the Commissioner’s recommendations, and most of have notes that I took watching ‘‘Power and Politics’’ and those recommendations have already been acted on. The watching it on the screen. department has indicated to Minister Kenney that all the recommendations will be implemented by fall. The report acknowledges that the department has made significant progress I’ve not spoken about this to anybody until I raised it today, in implementing many of the recommendations, and the because I was raising a question about vouching. Commissioner is confident that her office does not have to intervene again at this time with regard to the breach of As a citizen of Dartmouth, who has voted in many — all the information on student loans. elections since 1975 — your words that I saw last night caused me great concern. I worked very hard in all of these elections. My It seems clear to me that the bill must ensure that, when there is candidate lost in the last election, not by that many votes. If there a breach of privacy, all of the information is protected and the were thousands and thousands of votes, as you suggested, that breach is disclosed. If other improvements or clarifications are were questionable, then I would think that you would want to proposed when the bill is studied by the Senate and in committee, discuss that with Elections Canada. they will be examined and incorporated where appropriate, as with any bill. Senator McInnis: Mr. Speaker, may I respond to that? [English] It is amazing. We’re all honourable in here, allegedly. Isn’t it amazing that you would stand here today in a rush to make a QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE comment without checking it out.

Hon. Tom McInnis: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. . (1430) Earlier in Question Period, a fellow senator from Nova Scotia made a statement that I said yesterday in the hearings that we were having with respect to the fair elections act; and she made Mr. Speaker, she has not taken the time to see the written the statement that I had said that I had witnessed thousands of record. fraudulent votes that have taken place in Halifax-Dartmouth. I presume she has written record of that in front of her to make that You make that accusation for political gain to make some accusation. question here in Question Period? Isn’t that quite remarkable?

[ Senator Carignan ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1351

Please check the record. As I said, if my words got run together, the Senate will address the items in the following order: Third which I hope they did not, I will expect an apology. reading of Bill S-2, followed by Motion No. 27, followed by all remaining items in the order that they appear on the Order Paper. Some Hon. Senators: Hear, hear! STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS ACT Senator Cordy: I do have part of what you said, and what you STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS REGULATIONS said was: BILL TO AMEND—THIRD READING Thank you for coming this morning. Hon. David M. Wells moved third reading of Bill S-2, An Act to I have a quick comment and then a question. I’m not as amend the Statutory Instruments Act and to make consequential old as Senator Plett so I’ve not been involved in as many amendments to the Statutory Instruments Regulations. elections, but I have since the age of 16. I can tell you that vouching is a problem. It’s not just vouching. I’ve witnessed He said: Honourable senators, today I rise to speak to you it personally on the streets of Halifax and Dartmouth. It is a about Bill S-2, the incorporation by reference and regulations act. problem. I would first like to thank my colleagues on the Senate Standing Many of these people, first of all, don’t even know who Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for their swift the candidates are and haven’t been involved. That doesn’t consideration of the bill, relying on the relevant testimony of absolve them from the right to vote; I realize that. I’ve seen witnesses heard before and the important work that the people take them in and almost mark their ballot. That’s committee had previously completed. how serious this is, and it’s thousands and thousands. Incorporation by reference has already become an important That’s from the record. component of modern regulation and is used extensively in existing federal regulations. The witnesses that the Senate committee heard previously were supportive of the use of Senator McInnis: Not in Halifax-Dartmouth. Now we’re getting incorporation by reference and notably the incorporation by to the truth. Not in Halifax-Dartmouth. It has been commented reference of documents as they may be amended from time to over there by others, other than I, that it is thousands and time as a way to achieve effective and responsive regulation in a thousands across the country. fiscally responsible manner.

Be practical. How could I witness thousands and thousands in After years of experience with federal regulations using the Halifax? Why would I make that comment? technique of incorporation by reference, we know that regulators will frequently rely on both international and national standards to achieve their regulatory objectives. Senator Mitchell: I don’t know. The Standing Senate Committee heard witnesses from the Senator McInnis: As I said in my earlier statement, I consider Standards Council of Canada who testified that giving regulators myself honourable and truthful. If I make a mistake or make immediate access to the best technology and best expertise in any statements that are untrue, I will absolutely stand and apologize. area will offer the best protection to the health and safety of Canadians. These witnesses provided testimony that many That is not the statement that you alleged that I made. hundreds of standards are already incorporated by reference, and that use of these standards goes a long way to ensuring that our international obligations are met. Use of the technique The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I will examine the ensures that our obligations relating to avoiding technical barriers record and, in the meantime, take the matter under advisement. to trade are satisfied, that unnecessary duplication is avoided, and that regulatory alignment is promoted. Indeed, the successful experience to date in using these materials and others in federal regulations will also inform the future use of this technique.

Bill S-2 builds on this positive work forward in many ways. ORDERS OF THE DAY Enactment of this legislation will settle the debate between the Standing Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations and the BUSINESS OF THE SENATE government, who have long disagreed about when ambulatory incorporation by reference can be used. This bill responds to one of the committee’s fundamental concerns by creating an express Hon. Yonah Martin (Deputy Leader of the Government): legal basis for the use of the technique so that there can be no Honourable senators, pursuant to rule 4-13(3), I would like to longer legal debate as to whether incorporation by reference can inform the Senate that as we proceed with Government Business, and cannot be used. 1352 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014

Also, Bill S-2 will impose for the first time in federal legislation manner in which incorporation by reference is used to ensure that an obligation on regulation-makers to ensure that the material it falls within the scope of authority conferred by this act or a that their regulations incorporate by reference is accessible. This particular act. By the same token, it is and will remain open to the positive obligation will provide regulated communities with the committee to continue to review incorporated material at any assurance that such material will be available to them with a point, whether at that time that the regulation is first published or reasonable amount of effort on their part. The bill will, at the in the future after amendments have been made to the same time, provide regulators with the necessary flexibility to incorporated material. adapt to the many types and sources of material that may be incorporated. The approach to accessibility in Bill S-2 avoids any Ultimately, it is in the interests of regulators to ensure that the duplication or costs by recognizing that much of the material that material that they incorporate by reference is accessible, is incorporated by reference is already accessible, without the understandable and enforceable. The goal of Bill S-2 is to regulation-maker needing to take further steps in many cases. confirm access to a drafting technique which is already one of the regulatory tools available to a regulator when it designs its For example, federal regulations often incorporate by reference programs. The successful use of this technique to date will provincial or territorial legislation in order to facilitate continue to inform the guidance that the government gives to intergovernmental cooperation. Provincial and territorial regulators about how to most effectively use this technique, while legislation is already widely accessible through the Internet and ensuring that the requirements of accessibility and enforceability no further steps on the part of the federal regulators would be are satisfied. necessary. To require further action would result in unnecessary costs. Similarly, standards produced by organizations operating . (1440) under the auspices of the Standards Council of Canada are readily accessible from the expert bodies that write them at a reasonable cost. In conclusion, Bill S-2 will ensure that the government has access to a key tool that has already become an important element of modern regulation. Incorporation by reference, and, in Bill S-2 also includes provisions to make sure that a regulated particular, ambulatory incorporation by reference, helps to person could not be subject to penalties or other sanctions if that ensure that regulations are immediately responsive and efficient. incorporated material is not accessible. Both the obligation At the same time, Bill S-2 will ensure that the rules, such as relating to accessibility and the corresponding protections accessibility and protections for the regulated public, are spelled respond to concerns of the Standing Joint Committee on the out clearly in the legislation, so that there is no longer any doubt. Scrutiny of Regulations. This proposed legislation offers both flexibility and safeguards, There are a few important themes that merit emphasizing with and demonstrates that Canada is on the leading edge of respect to this proposed legislation. regulation-making and in ensuring that its regulators have access to the best tools. One important point to remember is that incorporation by reference is a technique to implement regulation-making powers Thank you, honourable senators. that Parliament has already entrusted to the regulation-making authorities, and the choice to use incorporation by reference, or [Translation] not, allows the delegate to consider how best to implement the broad policy objectives that Parliament has established. As with Hon. Céline Hervieux-Payette: First of all, I would like to tell all all regulation-making powers, the use of incorporation by those who do not intend to listen closely to my speech that I said reference must fall within the four corners of the regulation- almost everything I had to say when I spoke at second reading. making power that Parliament has already conferred. This is an However, I would perhaps remind those who are interested in this important factor that operates to shape the use of the technique of issue of the spirit in which I examined this bill. incorporation by reference and will continue to do so in the future. I would like to remind my colleagues that I have been a member of the Standing Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Regulations for Another important clarification is that although Bill S-2 creates over 15 years. I clearly have an interest in the issues dealt with by an express obligation on regulation-making authorities to ensure this committee because they are fairly dry for anyone who was not that documents are accessible, this obligation relating to born with a legal mind. There is a great deal of documentation accessibility is distinct from and not intended to change the but, fortunately, we also have an extremely competent staff. I constitutional obligations related to bilingual legislation. The would like to recognize their work here today. I can tell you that overarching principles established by the Supreme Court of the law clerks from the House and the Senate who work with the Canada in 1992 are in no way altered by the language of this bill. joint committee do an extraordinary job. The principle that material can be incorporated by reference in only one official language only when there is a legitimate need to do so remains untouched by the bill. The reason I have some serious reservations about Bill S-2 and do not support it is that the bill is a way of fast-tracking things, when there is always a way to amend regulations, even though It is also important to recall that the mandate of the Standing people say the process is very complicated. The main reason why I Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations is not altered in believe that a regulation should remain a regulation and that no any way as a result of Bill S-2. As is the case now, the joint one should try to slip something else into it through the back door committee will continue to be able to review and scrutinize the has to do with publication and consultation. Everyone involved,

[ Senator Wells ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1353 everyone affected by the regulations, can tell the legislator what Section 18.7 is the height of disrespect for a system of law; it they think, and the legislator will have to take those comments introduces retroactivity. In the case of regulations where an into account. incorporation by reference was made illegally a number of years ago, suddenly one day, they will automatically become legal. I In this case, when regulations are changed through don’t have to tell you that I see very little merit in that section. incorporation by reference, there is no consultation and no feedback. All this is done by public servants. I must say that those Why do I not believe that this bill will improve our legal system, affected should be concerned about this way of doing things, as improve the management of businesses and the government. On am I. the one hand, because we spend our time saying that we want to be transparent, when in fact, this bill will make the regulations Since the same time frames do not apply, things can be done process more obscure. On the other hand, when it comes to quite quickly. I think the biggest problem is the lack of accountability, if you didn’t find the incorporation by reference, transparency. don’t worry, because you won’t face any sanctions anyway. Anyone who finds it will be required to follow it, but anyone can just say that they didn’t follow it because they didn’t know about At no point have we been told that there will be a central it. We cannot have two systems of law. There is only one system registry with daily online updates. I believe that there are of law. People need to know which regulations they must follow. approximately 30,000 federal regulations and 3,000 laws, and every one of those regulations can include incorporation by reference. Imagine what a headache that will be for taxpayers and If we want to move forward with this bill... In the past few days their lawyers who have to dig through all of the regulations and we have all spoken to the professional associations, to the find the material that was incorporated by reference, the plumbers, who have come here. The plumbers told me that they document that pertains to the regulation. Regulations were worried that American standards would sneak in through themselves are easy enough to find because they are public. the back door. You are familiar with what American lobbies can do. This means that Canadian and American standards are not similar. We are talking about anything technical or technological, For incorporation by reference, there’s nothing in the law that the components that are used in this industry. The problem in this requires the government to develop a system searchable by day, case is that the standards will not necessarily be bilingual and they subject and regulation. From an accessibility perspective, I can will also not reflect our climate. tell you right now that, technically speaking, this bill makes no promises at all. The way construction is done in Florida may not work in Montreal and probably would not have worked in Ottawa this There’s also the cost. We have to consider the fact that if a past year. I think we need properties and buildings that can taxpayer has to consult experts for help managing his business, withstand bad weather. and if those experts have to spend hours and hours making sure they’ve covered all of the angles that incorporation by reference covers, there are hourly rates and bills, and it gets to be a massive If I wanted to support incorporation by reference for the sake burden on businesses even though the government always says it of efficiency, because that is what is being promoted, there are wants to reduce the regulatory burden. two types of incorporation by reference. The first type is closed. It does not change and we do not need to worry about it changing over time. There is also open incorporation by reference. If you The other problem is that, despite what my colleague who just adopt it in 2014, then in 2015 through incorporation by reference spoke claimed, nowhere in the law is there anything that requires you change the standards, and in 2017 you change the standards the incorporation by reference of an international document, an again, and so on. American document, a European document or an international standard to be bilingual. That is a problem right off the bat. This will affect what I consider to be strategic sectors, such as health, . (1450) transportation and many other sectors where the issues are global. However, each time, there is no registry, no publication. In my previous speech, I talked about the problem with railway Finding it, especially with 30,000 regulations, is like finding a regulations regarding the incident in Quebec. The regulations are needle in a haystack. currently being changed. But even in that case, the people affected are not really satisfied with the amount of consultation. And we I cannot recommend to my colleagues that they support this are talking about the regulations. When it comes to incorporation bill. I believe that it might be convenient for the public service. by reference, there won’t be any consultation. However, it would seem to me, honourable senators, that it is up to us to decide how our government will work and it is not up to What also troubles me is that one of the general principles of the public service to tell us how to reduce their workload. law is that ‘‘ignorance of the law is no excuse.’’ This applies to everyone. In this case, however, the legislator, somewhat As a member of the Standing Joint Committee on Scrutiny of ridiculously in section 18.6, exonerates people saying that Regulations, I am also skeptical. I have sat on this committee for perhaps they should have been familiar with the incorporation 19 years except for the brief, two-year period when I was the by reference, but they didn’t know about it because they couldn’t Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and I realize that, over the find it. Thus, there will be no finding of guilt or administrative past three or four years, rather than working by consensus, we sanction if they did not follow the incorporation by reference. So have voted more often than in the previous 15 years. In other this will be done in a pretty informal manner. Except that for words, we have become partisan. The people who come to this regulations, this is quite shocking. committee have received their marching orders from the 1354 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 government and, rather than accepting their responsibilities and Senator Beyak, that the bill be read the third time now. Is it your determining whether regulations are consistent with the pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? legislation, they allow their decision to be dictated to them. We have even had to vote to determine whether or not we would send Some Hon. Senators: Agreed. a letter to the minister. Some Hon. Senators: No. I personally have no confidence in this method. It is far too permissive, and I would recommend that my colleagues not support this bill. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those in favour of the motion please say ‘‘yea.’’ [English] Some Hon. Senators: Yea. Hon. Joseph A. Day: A question to the honourable senator, if she’s prepared to take one. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those against the adoption of the motion, please say ‘‘nay.’’ We have seen incorporation by reference in the past on various pieces of legislation and in omnibus bills. I have commented on Some Hon. Senators: Nay. this in the past, and my concern has always been the imprecision, the impreciseness of incorporating by reference something that is The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: In my opinion the ‘‘yeas’’ in existence now or may be in existence in the future. It is ‘‘as now have it. exists or in the future.’’ It is always that ‘‘in the future’’ that concerns me. (Motion agreed to and bill read third time and passed, on division.) If you want to be a law-abiding citizen and you want to know what the rule is, you first go to the law. The law has regulations that flow from it. Now those regulations have incorporated into ECONOMIC ACTION PLAN 2014 BILL, NO. 1 them some standards of whatever body, so you have look up those other standards that are incorporated by reference into the regulations. Finally, you have to determine whether what has CERTAIN COMMITTEES AUTHORIZED been incorporated by reference has been amended. If so, how was TO STUDY SUBJECT MATTER it amended, and when was it last amended? That is what applies to me. On the Order:

Honourable senators, this sounds to me like an amazing make- Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable work project for lawyers to help people abide by the law. Are you Senator Martin, seconded by the Honourable Senator in agreement with that process in the way I have explained it? Demers:

[Translation] That, in accordance with rule 10-11(1), the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to Senator Hervieux-Payette: I must say that I am not surprised examine the subject-matter of all of Bill C-31, An Act to that my colleague has grasped the thrust of the bill so well, but I implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in will say that it is in keeping with a standard that he knows well Parliament on February 11, 2014 and other measures, and that His Honour also knows well and that states, in Latin: introduced in the House of Commons on March 28, 2014, in Delegatus non potest delegare. advance of the said bill coming before the Senate;

I think that the thing that bothers us about this is that at the That the Standing Senate Committee on National end of the day, people are being referred to a third document that Finance be authorized to sit for the purposes of its study can change over time and there is no registry, no way to find it of the subject-matter of Bill C-31 even though the Senate other than by searching through an incredible number of may then be sitting, with the application of rule 12-18(1) regulations, references and standards. This serves only the being suspended in relation thereto; and interest of the administration, and certainly not that of the taxpayers. That, in addition, and notwithstanding any normal practice: [English] 1. The following committees be separately authorized to The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators examine the subject-matter of the following elements ready for the question? contained in Bill C-31 in advance of it coming before the Senate: Hon. Senators: Question. (a) the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: It was moved by the Communications: those elements contained in Honourable Senator Wells, seconded by the Honourable Divisions 15, 16 and 28 of Part 6;

[ Senator Hervieux-Payette ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1355

(b) the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Ideally, we wouldn’t have to be doing this at all because we Science and Technology: those elements contained wouldn’t have to face omnibus bills, but it is not the Senate that in Divisions 11, 17, 20, 27 and 30 of Part 6; determines whether or not omnibus bills come to it, and over the years we have established a habit of parcelling out portions of (c) the Standing Senate Committee on National omnibus bills to the committees that are best equipped in Security and Defence: those elements contained expertise and experience to handle them. That’s what we’re in Divisions 1 and 7 of Part 6; doing here today.

(d) the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade It is, in my view, clear that the Legal and Constitutional Affairs and Commerce: those elements contained in Parts Committee has not only the tradition but the actual experience 2, 3 and 4 and Divisions 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 14, 19, 22, 24 and expertise to handle this particular portion of the budget and 25 of Part 6; implementation act and, so as I have said, colleagues, I strongly support this amendment. 2. The various committees listed in point one that are authorized to examine the subject-matter of particular Hon. Joseph A. Day: I should say a few words on this since the elements of Bill C-31 submit their final reports to the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance will be called Senate no later than June 19, 2014; upon to do quite a bit of the work, as you will see in paragraph 4 of this motion. 3. As the reports from the various committees authorized to examine the subject-matter of The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Do you want to speak particular elements of Bill C-31 are tabled in the specifically on paragraph (d) or on the amendment that we are Senate, they be placed on the Orders of the Day for now debating? consideration at the next sitting; and Senator Day: I thought I could speak on both at the same time. 4. The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be simultaneously authorized to take any reports The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: We should first go to the tabled under point three into consideration during its amendment. I will put the question on the amendment and then study of the subject-matter of all of Bill C-31. we will go back to the main motion. Then I think it would be appropriate for you to speak at that moment. MOTION IN AMENDMENT Senator Day: Thank you. I will divide my comments into two Hon. Elizabeth Marshall: Honourable senators, in amendment, parts. I move that the motion be amended by adding, at the end of paragraph (d) after the semi-colon, the following: I support the amendment.

‘‘(e) the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Good. Constitutional Affairs: those elements contained in Division 5 of Part 6;’’. Senator Cowan: Great speech.

She said: Honourable senators, as everybody knows, for the last . (1500) several years we have been splitting up the budget bill and referring it to various committees of the Senate. After discussion [Translation] between the deputy leader on the government side and the deputy leader on the other side, it has been agreed that Part 6, Division 5, clauses 164 and 165, relating to the Judge’s Act, should go to Hon. Fernand Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, even though my Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs colleagues on this side of the chamber agree with this to be looked at and studied. amendment, and even though I might agree in another context, I am voting against it because I do not agree with the omnibus bills we are presented with. Hon. Joan Fraser (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): I would like to say that I strongly support this amendment, and I thank the government for moving it. Thank you. [English] When we first saw the list of allocations of parts of this pre- study to different committees, I noted in negotiations with the government that precedent was for any matter concerning judges The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators to go to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee. I greatly ready for the question? appreciate the government’s willingness to say, ‘‘Oops, yes, that’s right. That’s the precedent and that’s what we will do.’’ Hon. Senators: Question.

I believe this is a good example of how the Senate should work. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, It would be a good precedent. honourable senators, to adopt the motion in amendment? 1356 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014

Some Hon. Senators: Agreed. the committees conduct clause-by-clause consideration on the clauses that they have studied? We’re not proposing that here, and Some Hon. Senators: No. that’s not what’s intended, implicit in paragraph 4, where the National Finance Committee is required to consider all of the reports and to have, in effect, a knowledge of the entire bill ready The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those in favour please say to do a clause-by-clause consideration of the whole bill. ‘‘yea.’’

Some Hon. Senators: Yea. For that reason, I’m reluctant to support this, and I will abstain from supporting it because I believe it is not going far enough. I share the comment of Senator Robichaud that, in principle, we The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those against please say shouldn’t be encouraging these particular omnibus financial ‘‘nay.’’ budget bills, but we should divide them up. We have taken one step. We haven’t gone far enough. Some Hon. Senators: Nay. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: In my opinion, the ‘‘yeas’’ ready for the question? have it. Hon. Senators: Question. (Motion in amendment adopted, on division.) The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: On debate on the main honourable senators, to adopt the motion? motion. Some Hon. Senators: Agreed. Senator Day: The proponent of the motion may wish to speak first, Your Honour, and then I would reply. I don’t mean to take this person’s time. Some Hon. Senators: No.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Seeing no one, I recognize The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those in favour please say you. ‘‘yea.’’

Senator Day: Thank you, Your Honour. I’m generally in Some Hon. Senators: Yea. support of the concept of trying to share the work on something like an omnibus bill. I share the view of Senator Robichaud that The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Those against please say we should not encourage this kind of budget omnibus bill. Given ‘‘nay.’’ the fact that we have it, I believe this is a step in the right direction as a manner to handle it. Some Hon. Senators: Nay. I point out that paragraph 4 requires the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance to do a portion of the work on The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: The ‘‘yeas’’ have it. I’m not this omnibus bill, with certain sections to look at, but, in addition recording abstentions on a voice vote. to that, to review all of the other reports from all of the other committees and all of the work that the other committees are (Motion as amended agreed to, on division.) doing.

I’m concerned that those reports aren’t required to be in until THE ESTIMATES, 2013-14 June 19 of this year. Then, the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance is going to be required to study those reports if MAIN ESTIMATES—SEVENTH REPORT OF NATIONAL the bill has arrived or wait for the bill to come, and then study the FINANCE COMMITTEE ADOPTED entire bill and conduct clause-by-clause consideration on all clauses, not just the ones they’ve studied. On the Order: My first concern is that June 19, I believe, which appears in paragraph 2 of Motion No. 27, is too close to the end of this Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable particular spring session. Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, for the adoption of the seventh report of the Standing My second concern is in regard to requiring one committee to Senate Committee on National Finance (Main Estimates do all of the clause-by-clause consideration following this pre- 2013-2014), tabled in the Senate on March 25, 2014. study. If we’re having a pre-study, why not have the same division and the same commitment to divide the bill when it comes? Pre- Hon. Catherine S. Callbeck: Honourable senators, I wish to say study is to study the bill before it comes here. Why not take the a few words on this motion on the Main Estimates 2013-14, which bill when it comes here and divide the bill into the same different the National Finance Committee has been studying for a number categories that we’re dividing the pre-study into and let each of of months.

: April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1357

We’ve already heard from the Deputy Chair, Senator L. Smith, . (1510) and we had an overview from the Chair, Senator Day. I wish to speak about a couple of areas because they deal with spending in I’d like to quote again from the testimony of Mr. Askari, the departments. Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, who said:

The first area I want to talk about is regarding some incredible, One of the things we asked in our request from the revealing testimony we received from the Parliamentary Budget department after Budget 2012 was to provide us with Officer regarding government cuts. It’s been well documented that information, inflows and outflows of money to different the former PBO, Kevin Page, and, now, the current PBO, Jean- programs. The idea there was for us to assess whether in Denis Fréchette, have had a remarkably difficult time trying to areas where there is a claim of a huge efficiency gain there get information on billions of dollars in government cuts, most of has been some investment that would actually lead to that stemming from the 2012 Spending Review and Deficit efficiencies, but when we look at the overall picture and look Reduction Action Plan. In fact, it was so bad that Mr. Page ended at different program activities and the performance criteria up taking the federal government to court to try to get the that the government has set for those programs, we see that information that he needed to actually find out what programs, before or after the 2012 Budget those service-level qualities services and positions would be eliminated in these reductions. and performance targets have not changed at all. Even though there have been cuts through those programs, those Since Mr. Page’s departure from the PBO, Mr. Fréchette has service-level qualities have not been changed. They still continued the battle to try to get information, and he has actually maintain those qualities. been forced to, as a last resort, file access-to-information requests to try to figure out what’s happening inside the departments. The question for us is how do you maintain those levels of services, the quality of services, without actually investing He told the committee: in those areas? That’s the part of the information that is missing and that we could not get to evaluate that. It is not really clear to us exactly how you do that. The PBO has not yet received from federal departments and agencies complete service-level data that is necessary to assess the fiscal sustainability of the Budget 2012 cuts. Mr. Weltman, Acting Assistant PBO, was more explicit. He Almost 40 per cent of the performance of programs in 2012- said: 13 cannot be evaluated due to end-year changes to targets, incomplete data or insufficient evidence. If you are cutting expenses to find savings, you’re cutting people. That’s how you find savings. Our experience has I remind honourable senators that the mandate of the taught us that, not just at PBO but also at Treasury Board... Parliamentary Budget Officer is to provide independent analysis to the Senate and the House of Commons about the state of the nation’s finances, estimates of the government and trends in the If you are not, as Mr. Askari mentioned, investing in national economy. capital to replace those people you’re cutting, then it is pretty interesting or a little mysterious how you’re going to maintain those same service levels. We’re not able to get I asked our witnesses from PBO if they could fulfill their access to any of that information. mandate that I’ve just quoted. I want to read part of that transcript from the National Finance Committee meeting on January 28, where this was discussed. To put it simply, honourable senators, the PBO cannot figure out how the government plans on cutting as much as they do while still maintaining the programs and levels of service I said: Canadians have now.

So, really, the bottom line here is that if you can’t get the I understand the PBO’s frustrations at not being able to get information, you really can’t fulfill your mandate. Is that information on these cuts. At that Finance Committee, I asked right? almost every department we had that had any mention at all in the 2012 budget cuts for the spending review to break down in The response from Mr. Askari, who was Assistant detail what makes up those cuts. What jobs, programs and Parliamentary Budget Officer, was: services will no longer be available to Canadians? The answer is virtually always the same: a promise to respond with a breakdown, but weeks later, little or no information. Canadians That’s correct. have every right to know how their money is or isn’t being spent, and it is just that: their money. To have to end up in court filing As we all know, the government created the PBO with great access-to-information requests to find out basic budgetary fanfare, and now they’re preventing the office from actually measures is simply disgraceful. fulfilling the mandate that they created. While I still have some time, honourable senators, I’d like to Our witnesses from PBO also brought up the very good point move away from the plight of the PBO and discuss another about what that lack of information means in terms of actually concerning issue we came across during our examination of the administering the programs. Main Estimates regarding youth hiring in the federal public 1358 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 service. The Federal Student Work Experience Program gives LINCOLN ALEXANDER DAY BILL thousands of full-time students the opportunity every summer to work for the federal government across the country in a wide SIXTH REPORT OF SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE variety of positions covering virtually every government AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE ADOPTED department. For many, FSWEP has been a stepping stone to a career in the federal public service, opening the door and creating job opportunities that simply wouldn’t be available without the On the Order: program. However, that window of opportunity for students is now shrinking. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Ogilvie, seconded by the Honourable Senator Testimony from Anne-Marie Robinson, President of the Public McIntyre, for the adoption of the sixth report of the Service Commission of Canada, revealed that hiring under the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and FSWEP program is down dramatically over the past year. Technology (Bill S-213, An Act respecting Lincoln According to her, in 2011-12, 8,305 students were hired under Alexander Day, with amendments), presented in the the program. In 2012-13, that number plunged to 5,835 — a Senate on April 3, 2014. decrease of 2,467 jobs or 30 per cent. Co-op positions with the federal government have also dropped from 4,520 in 2011-12 to The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators 3,408 in 2012-13 — a decrease of 25 per cent. Honourable ready for the question? senators, this comes at a time when we need fresh blood flowing into the civil service more than ever. It’s aging quickly. With the recent cuts and layoffs by attrition, we need these young people. Hon. Senators: Question.

Anne-Marie Robinson told the committee: The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Fewer graduates entered the public service in 2012-13. There are also fewer employees aged 35 years of age and younger (Motion agreed to and report adopted.) in the public service. They represented 18.4 per cent of permanent employees in March 2013, down from 21.4 per The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, when cent in March 2010. In this context, a focus on renewal and shall this bill be read the third time? the recruitment of new employees will gain greater importance as the public service moves forward. (On motion of Senator Martin, bill place on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate.) However, it’s hard for the Public Service Commission of Canada to focus on recruitment of youth when one of their best (1520) tools, FSWEP, is hiring thousands fewer. This trend must be . halted in order to guarantee the long-term stability of the civil service. The government, in my opinion, must realize that and [Translation] reverse the hiring decline. We need more students and young people in the civil service, not fewer. If we don’t do that, we could be facing a real staffing crisis in the medium and long terms. CANADA ELECTIONS ACT

Honourable senators, those are two of the concerns I wanted to BILL TO AMEND—SECOND READING— bring to your attention that came up during the hearings we had DEBATE ADJOURNED on the 2013-14 budget: first, that the Parliamentary Budget Officer can’t fulfill his mandate because he can’t get sufficient Hon. Dennis Dawson moved that Bill S-215, An Act to amend information from the government; and second, that the the Canada Elections Act (election expenses), be read the second government is hiring fewer young people in the public service, time. which could have very serious implications down the road. He said: Honourable senators, this is the third time I have The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators introduced this bill, and I hope the third time’s the charm. I would ready for the question? like to convince you to correct a major flaw in the Canada Elections Act. Hon. Senators: Question. Honourable senators who were present when I introduced the first two versions of this bill know the details. They know that the The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, purpose of this bill is not to prevent political parties from honourable senators, to adopt the motion? advertising between election campaigns. Its purpose is simply to better regulate advertising expenses by requiring parties to report advertising during the three-month period prior to an election (Motion agreed to and report adopted.) period as official campaign expenses.

[ Senator Callbeck ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1359

[English] collected that money that you’ve spent $8 million or $9 million to create a data fund for the party and also threw that under the bus I’m glad to know that Senator Gerstein will once again be the because it was rejected and was not used. With $25 here and $50 critic on this bill. No doubt, we’ll hear from him. He will likely say there, it takes a lot of $25 and $50 donations to be able to collect that I’m introducing the same bill, I’m repeating myself and he the millions of dollars that were wasted on the fees for Senator will be right. It was a good idea then; it’s a good idea now. Duffy — all that hard-earned, hard-collected money wasted.

I will have to mention Senator Gerstein a few times in my In addition to losing those senators, they’ve lost three directors address on the bill because he does come up in some of the general in six months; the last one obviously being Dimitri Soudas remarks that I will be making. I could have used his title as chief two weeks ago. He’s also mentioned in a few of the emails. He financial officer of the Conservative Party, or something like that, sent a confidential email to Senator Gerstein saying that we have but as you know I have a lot of respect for Senator Gerstein. He to ask the Conservative fundraisers to collect more money. That has a job to do and I respect the job he has to do but sometimes it email was sent to everybody who had been a major donor to the carries some responsibilities. Conservative Party in the last few years.

I must warn Senator Gerstein that a lot has changed since I There was one exception. One person who didn’t get that letter introduced Bill S-227 in February 2011 — major changes on the was Dimitri Soudas. If you look at the Conservative list of donors Conservative side. At that time Nigel Wright was the Prime for the last five or six years, you will see he wasn’t on it. He didn’t Minister’s chief of staff. Mr. Wright was one of their party’s main contribute to his own party. We need that hard-earned money and credible allies on Bay Street and a good source of revenue for the Senator Gerstein had to work with that guy. Oh, it must have Conservative Party. He fell under the bus. I’ll get back to him a been painful. But again, where is he? He’s under the bus. little bit later. Another great difference between now and the last time I Mike Duffy was described in emails as the biggest draw at presented this bill is the Minister of Finance — a very credible Conservative fundraising activities across Canada. I was Minister of Finance on Bay Street and across the country and, following him on Twitter when he was soliciting funds. It was again, very popular in fundraising activities — for reasons that quite entertaining. We even have emails from him asking an we’ll know some day, decided to resign. unknown source to help him get appointed to cabinet in order to raise even more money on behalf of the Conservative Party — on Senator LeBreton: Is this not a partisan speech? the taxpayers’ bill, obviously. We are even told that had he limited his abuse of public funds to less than $40,000 he could have Senator Dawson: Not at all. It’s a speech to defend the bill that received a reimbursement from the Conservative Party fund. will stop you guys from abusing as you’ve been doing for years Since he couldn’t be reimbursed by the party, he asked the same and definitely, as the presenter of the bill, I do have strong Nigel Wright I mentioned earlier to write him a cheque of opinions. $90,000. On that I can quote the PM and say I cannot talk about it because it’s in front of the courts. Madam, I won’t be getting lessons on partisanship from you. You’re quoted in a bunch of emails but I didn’t want to provoke The same Nigel Wright and the Conservative Fund reimbursed you so I didn’t mention you because that would just be adding Mr. Duffy’s lawyer’s fees, again, from the money that the chief insult to — fundraiser of the Conservative Party has to work hard to collect. He’s also under the bus. A lot of people are getting thrown under that bus and it’s happening every week. [Translation]

If you want, I have the memo on the correspondence The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, order. concerning his nomination to cabinet and the refusal that was given by people on the other side to say that would be an even Senator Dawson: I was simply trying to correct the impressions greater abuse of public funds than he has done in the past. that the honourable senator was giving.

[Translation] [English]

The changes don’t end there on the Conservative side. Pamela Again, if you want a copy, I can send you one. It’s the Wallin, the Conservative Party’s second-most-popular fundraiser, correspondence concerning the secret email from Dimitri to you attended fundraising activities from Vancouver to Halifax at asking for funds. Great success — probably paid for his taxpayers’ expense. Taxpayers wasted tens of thousands of dollars separation pay. helping out the Conservative Party. It so happens that Ms. Wallin paid back some of the money. She embarrassed the party, and [Translation] now she is under the same bus. Even more important is the fact that the Conservatives are [English] trying to use Bill C-23 to sabotage our electoral system, which is the envy of the world. I hope that we will soon have a chance to I have an article here ‘‘Conservative campaign database fiasco debate this bill in this chamber. It has drawn criticism from all cost party millions.’’ I know how hard the chief financial officer of sides. The Conservatives are yet again drawing inspiration from the party works to collect money, but you tell the people who the Republicans in the United States with their cheap tactics to try 1360 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 to win elections by bending the rules. The Conservatives tried to the other chamber — is that of a level playing field. This is a do that in the last election by directing voters to the wrong polling notion that the Conservatives brought in through the legislation station, and now they are using Bill C-23 to try to do it again. they passed in the 1950s.

My bill won’t solve all of the problems, of course, but it’s [English] another step in the right direction. This bill is based on three major principles. No one should try to bend the rules to their It was very good legislation. I remember the great Dief, and he advantage. We need to put the brakes on the Conservatives’ would be a little sad to see what is happening in the other obsession with drawing us into a U.S.-style perpetual election chamber when they are debating Bill C-23. campaign. [Translation] . (1530) Money should not allow a party to monopolize the political There have, however, been more than negative changes since discourse. To ensure that political parties have the same 2011. The Liberals, in particular, saw their fundraising revenue opportunity to share their ideas, we should return to the basic increase substantially to the point where they raised almost as underpinnings and spirit of the Canada Elections Act, namely, much money as the Conservatives in the last quarter. It is only a that parties can use only a limited amount of financial resources matter of time before they raise even more, since they already to run an election campaign so that every party has an equal have more donors than the Conservatives. opportunity.

[English] The vast majority of Canadians accept that the Canada Elections Act should be based on the principle of a level The bill would apply to them, too. When they have more money playing field. than you and they’re trying to spend it, I hope they have to respect the same bill you will have to respect if you decide to [English] support me in this bill. We have had this tradition for decades now, but the There have, however, been more than negative changes. The Conservative Party is trying to change another Canadian Liberals, in particular, saw their fundraising revenue increase tradition. The present party came to power promising to do substantially to the point of raising almost as much as the away with the role of big money in politics. Now they’re trying to Conservatives. It is only a question of time before they fundraise change that. more, because they have surpassed the Conservatives in the number of donors. The second principle, again, is tradition and goes back to Mr. Diefenbaker. A major principle in every democracy is that we Some Liberals may not be happy with my bill, since it restricts should not look for loopholes in legislation and profit from them all parties from spending money without control during a period for electoral purposes. Thinking that it is okay as long as we don’t leading up to an election. Even if my former colleagues in the get caught by Elections Canada is wrong. Liberal party in the other caucus have more money than Conservatives to spend, I still believe in the importance of this Clearly there has been a loophole in the Canada Elections Act bill. It will apply to them as it will apply to everybody else. since the Conservatives introduced their fixed election date legislation. If we have fixed election dates — and that law is not [Translation] always respected — for three months leading up to the campaign, any of the political parties can spend millions of dollars trying to Since I already introduced an almost identical version of this influence the electorate. According to the existing legislation, bill in the past, I may be repeating myself. However, principles are nobody would be preoccupied by that. That means we know it is principles. I would like to present to you the three major theoretically in October 2015. principles behind this bill. You have seen all these Justin Trudeau ads; you saw them when The first is that the outcome of our elections should not depend they did it with Stéphane Dion; and we have seen them in the on the size of any political party’s coffers. The outcome of our past. We know what they’ll try to do. elections should depend on which team and which leader Canadians think have the best ideas for the country. During the three months leading up to the election, if there is no legislation, they will spend as much money as they want trying to attack — not promoting their ideas or their successful eight years Elections should be decided through a fair contest of ideas, not in power. No, just negative ads to attack the other parties. through a contest of who can spend the most. This way of doing things, this idea that money is of the utmost importance in election campaigns, is a tradition that the Conservatives are trying They can do that if they want. The only thing the bill says is to impose on us. The Canadian tradition — and I had the that you have to put it in your expense accounts for the campaign; opportunity to talk to Senator Gerstein about John Diefenbaker, you have to recognize the fact that you spent money and, again, with whom, as I have mentioned, I had the opportunity to sit in come back to a level playing field.

[ Senator Dawson ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1361

This sort of campaign does not respect the essence of the are a major factor in this situation simply because Canadians do Canada Elections Act. They’re allowed to advertise, but they have not like them. Canadians are looking for a higher and more to be held accountable for it. constructive discourse than attack ads.

[Translation] We know the smaller voter turnout always helps the Tories. It helped them the last time; they received fewer votes than the election before, but they still won and it was a majority With fixed election dates, all the parties know the date of the government. I guess they’re attaining their objective: They next election and can easily launch advertising campaigns months received fewer votes in 2008 than 2006 and again gained seats. in advance without the campaign being subject to the law. If that is their objective, at least come out and say it. The hundreds of thousands of people they are trying to disenfranchise [English] with Bill C-23 is an additional example of them encouraging voters not to come out to vote. Again, I have to say, it’s going to apply to the Liberals as much as it’s going to apply to the governing party. They share a lot with the Republicans, but, contrary to the Republicans, they don’t have the courage to face it. If we want to campaign permanently like the U.S., we should campaign like [Translation] them. When they have a negative ad, they should note at the end of the ad: ‘‘I’m Stephen Harper, and I approve these ads.’’ But This brings me to the third principle, which has to do with they don’t do that; they don’t go all the way. If they want to permanent campaigns. follow the other model, let them follow it all the way.

[English] He’s probably never done it, because I think he’s probably personally embarrassed by some of these ads. I do not think the Prime Minister would say, ‘‘I approve of these ads.’’ I know we The Canadian way is also for members of Parliament and shouldn’t say lie, but some of them were so obviously lies that senators to work and govern between elections, not to spend most they were taken off and taken down by the Conservative Party of their time campaigning against other political parties and because they went too far. raising money. However, they still have the aim of turning off Canadians, For decades, political parties waited for the election call before which is a well-known objective. The less people vote, the more launching their official campaign. Now, the Conservatives are you think you have a chance of winning. trying to impose on Canadians a permanent campaign strategy like in the U.S. where representatives spend one year collecting [Translation] money and one year spending it, instead of governing. It is not a nice model to follow. There are some things we like to follow from the U.S., but that is not one of their great accomplishments. In closing, honourable senators, in order to put an end to Canadians’ cynicism with regard to politics, and for the good of Canadian democracy, we must hold elections that are won with The Conservatives are trying to outrageously change this ideas and not with money. Canadian tradition by spending, spending and spending outside electoral campaigns. We saw what they did with Stéphane Dion, [English] Michael Ignatieff and now Justin Trudeau: millions of dollars on TV and radio advertising. I must say it is not very successful this time around. Every time they show our leader, people respect him Honourable senators, I believe this bill is needed because it even more. preserves the Canadian tradition and it would end permanent campaigns. In the end, it hopefully would restore people’s appetite for election and politics. The use of government resources by the Conservatives is clear and well known by most of us. In my opinion, this use is problematic. I think this bill is only a first step in amendments to When you pride yourself in weakening voter participation in a the Canada Elections Act. When we get Bill C-23 here, we will democratic state at a time when the world is asking for a greater have to debate a lot about that. The Conservatives are going too voice and democratic elections, the only word I can say for this is far in their abuse, and I believe we eventually will need to have a that it is pathetic. wide debate on this concept across the country. Honourable senators, like most Canadians, I do not believe in permanent campaigning. I believe in fair debates and in I would like this bill to be sent to committee so we can debate politicians who work instead of fighting permanently. some of these issues that are changing the way Canada is perceived elsewhere. More and more Canadians are being cynical about politics and their politicians. The participation rate in the You have probably heard the opposition response to the last election is a good example of this cynicism. I believe the Conservative ads because, yes, they have to respond. They do not Republican-inspired attack ads are partly to blame for the fact just sit there and watch. That’s why permanent campaigns are bad that Canadians are turning off of politics. I believe that attack ads — because now that the Liberals have money, if they react to 1362 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014 these ads, it will be a battle to see who will spend more than the He said: Honourable senators, for the benefit of the Senate, this other guy. Again, that American attitude is not something we budget report requests a total of $10,360 for the purpose of want to import here. creating and publishing the final report of a study we will undertake to be tabled in the chamber no later than June 30, 2015. I truly believe in our Canadian tradition and that elections should be decided through a fair contest of ideas, not through a There are no other items in the budget other than the contest of who can spend the most. Most of all, I know that most preparation of the report. Canadians across the country believe that politicians’ first priority should be to govern, not to campaign permanently. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators ready for the question? Thank you. Hon. Senators: Question.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.) The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? . (1540) Hon. Senators: Agreed. CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT CRIMINAL CODE (Motion agreed to and report adopted.)

BILL TO AMEND—SECOND READING— CONFLICT OF INTEREST FOR SENATORS DEBATE CONTINUED BUDGET—FOURTH REPORT On the Order: OF COMMITTEE ADOPTED The Senate proceeded to consideration of the fourth report of Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable the Standing Committee on Conflict of Interest for Senators Senator Mitchell, seconded by the Honourable Senator (budget—mandate pursuant to rule 12-7(16)), presented in the Dyck, for the second reading of Bill C-279, An Act to Senate on April 8, 2014. amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code (gender identity). Hon. A. Raynell Andreychuk moved the adoption of the report.

Hon. Yonah Martin (Deputy Leader of the Government): She said: Honourable senators, there is an item that has been on Honourable senators, Senator Plett is the critic on this bill and the Order Paper every time we have a new session, and it is an he has asked me to ask for an extension to reset the clock. It is on item of $50,000 to be in reserve should we need any outside legal day 15 and he is not in the chamber at this time, so I ask, in advice that cannot be offered within the confines of Parliament. Senator Plett’s name, for this debate to be adjourned in his name and for the time to be reset. It has only been used once, from my recollection, some years ago, and the amount was about $5,000. We continue to keep it The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, just in case so that we can be ready to respond to any report in a honourable senators, to adopt the motion? timely fashion.

Hon. Senators: Agreed. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? (On motion of Senator Martin, for Senator Plett, debate adjourned.) Hon. Senators: Agreed. (Motion agreed to and report adopted.) SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY BUDGET AND AUTHORIZATION TO ENGAGE SERVICES—STUDY ON THE INCREASING INCIDENCE OF OBESITY—SEVENTH BUDGET—STUDY ON PRESCRIPTION REPORT OF COMMITTEE PHARMACEUTICALS—EIGHTH ADOPTED REPORT OF COMMITTEE ADOPTED

The Senate proceeded to consideration of the seventh report of The Senate proceeded to consideration of the eighth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology (budget—study on obesity in Canada—power to hire Technology (budget—study on prescription pharmaceuticals), staff), presented in the Senate on April 8, 2014. presented in the Senate on April 8, 2014.

Hon. Kelvin Kenneth Ogilvie moved the adoption of the report. Hon. Kelvin Kenneth Ogilvie moved the adoption of the report.

[ Senator Dawson ] April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1363

He said: Honourable senators, this is a budget totalling $20,470 Honourable senators, the committee is requesting $7,200 for entirely for the purposes of creating and publishing final reports. printing and courier. We anticipate a report of the current fourth section of this study and then an overall report. The budget is entirely for the purposes of producing these reports. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are senators ready for the question?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators Hon. Joseph A. Day: I wonder if the honourable senator would ready for the question? take a question.

Hon. Senators: Question. Can you tell us if the cost of printing the hard copies — never mind the courier cost — is now charged to the specific committee that is asking to have copies of the report printed? The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? Senator Jaffer: Yes, it is. Hon. Senators: Agreed. Senator Day: This budget is to cover that, plus courier costs. (Motion agreed to and report adopted.) Senator Jaffer: That’s right.

HUMAN RIGHTS Senator Day: Thank you.

BUDGET—STUDY ON ISSUE OF CYBERBULLYING— The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators FIFTH REPORT OF COMMITTEE ADOPTED ready for the question?

The Senate proceeded to consideration of the fifth report of the Hon. Senators: Question. Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study on cyberbullying), presented in the Senate on April 8, 2014. The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? Hon. Mobina S. B. Jaffer moved the adoption of the report. Hon. Senators: Agreed. She said: Honourable senators, the committee is requesting the sum of $7,200 for printing and courier expenses. (Motion agreed to and report adopted.)

As you are aware, in December 2012 the Senate Standing . (1550) Committee on Human Rights tabled its report entitled Cyberbullying Hurts: Respect for Rights in the Digital Age. In submitting this report, the committee produced two guides — one TOUR OF ALBERTA for youth and one for parents — to assist them in dealing with the challenges of cyberbullying. INQUIRY—DEBATE CONTINUED

Honourable senators, these guides have been incredibly well On the Order: received and the committee has had many requests from conferences around the world, school boards, church groups, Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable community groups and young people for a large number of Senator Mitchell calling the attention of the Senate to copies. The demand for these guides continues, and this budget is Canada’s Pro-Cycling Festival, the Tour of Alberta. to allow the committee to continue to print them. Hon. Joseph A. Day: Honourable senators, this matter was For senators’ information, as these guides are printed in-house, begun on November 7 by Senator Mitchell, who brought to our they’re only printed as and when they’re needed. We do not print attention the growing interest and importance of cycling in them all and wait to be asked. They’re only printed when needed. Canada by way of highlighting Canada’s pro-cycling festival, the Tour of Alberta. I would like to expand on the growing interest in cycling in Canada. I am mindful of the time, and, therefore, When we are first asked, the committee also continues to honourable senators, I move the adjournment of this particular encourage accessing the electronic version of these documents, inquiry for the balance of my time. but where hard copies are required we only print them on demand, rather than maintaining a large stock in order to minimize costs and waste. (On motion of Senator Day, debate adjourned.) 1364 SENATE DEBATES April 9, 2014

[Translation] The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Senator Dallaire, you have about six minutes before I will have to interrupt you.

NATIONAL SECURITY AND DEFENCE Senator Dallaire: How am I, as a former general, supposed to talk in six minutes? We will at least get the debate started. COMMITTEE AUTHORIZED TO STUDY THE MEDICAL, SOCIAL, AND OPERATIONAL IMPACTS OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AFFECTING SERVING AND I am seeking approval for the amendment I just introduced. I RETIRED MEMBERS OF THE CANADIAN apologize for not following procedure. I have been here for only ARMED FORCES AND THE SERVICES nine years and I am still learning. I thank you, Mr. Speaker. AND BENEFITS PROVIDED TO MEMBERS AND THEIR [English] FAMILIES—MOTION IN MODIFICATION ADOPTED The motion before you would give us the ability to conduct an order of reference or a fundamental study in the arena of an injury that is taking a toll of enormous significance on the Hon. Roméo Antonius Dallaire, pursuant to notice of March 25, members of the Armed Forces and also the RCMP who serve 2014, moved: overseas and in operational theatres.

That the Senate Standing Committee on National We’re going to do a three-phased approach looking at a Security and Defence be authorized to study and report on: problem that has been looked at by a number of other colleagues, both in the other house and in this house to a varying degree. (a) the medical, social, and operational impacts of mental health issues affecting serving and retired members of What has not been done up to now is to first analyze what that the Canadian Armed Forces, including operational injury is. What is it? What does it do? What is the cause of it? stress injuries (OSIs) such as post-traumatic stress What is essentially the injury that we’re speaking of? disorder (PTSD); and The second phase is to look at what we are doing about it now. (b) the services and benefits provided to members of the What are the tools that are there? What are the casualty levels? Canadian Armed Forces affected by OSIs, and to How are they handling it? How are their families handling the their families; and situation? How are we responding to the current casualties that in particular have commenced in this arena since the first Gulf War That the Committee report to the Senate no later than of 1991? Some of you will remember the Gulf War syndrome and December 31, 2015, and that it retain all powers necessary to how we really didn’t take care of that problem. publicize its findings until 90 days after the tabling of the final report. The third phase is where we want to break new ground. We believe the Senate should be a tool that can go well beyond the He said: Honourable senators, before I talk about the content Armed Forces and the RCMP and go to all first-responders in of the motion, I would like to introduce an amendment to this this country. It can go into other arenas where people face the motion and ask for your leave to include it in the original motion. traumas of ethical, sometimes moral and even legal dilemmas that create in them a state of depression and ultimately PTSD. The motion before you consists of two paragraphs, paragraphs (a) and (b). The amendment would add to the motion paragraphs This third arena is, what’s coming down the road? What are the (c) and (d), which read as follows; new technologies? What are the new methodologies? How are we going to be able to prevent the scale of casualties in the future? How are we going to treat those casualties in the future? How are (c) new and emerging technologies, treatments and we going to be more effective in doing that in order to reduce the solutions to aid mental health conditions such as scale of those casualties to the Armed Forces and also to their PTSD for members of the Canadian Armed Forces families? That part is going to be groundbreaking. There has not and Veterans; yet been anyone pulling all that together, and, in fact, influencing, we hope, government to influence research, influence application (d) how those emerging technologies, treatments and of new methodologies and introduce new methods into both solutions can be integrated into the benefit and National Defence and Veterans Affairs, who are picking up the services already provided by medical professionals pieces, and also into the RCMP. With that, we believe the working for National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canadian people will be able to extrapolate that into other arenas Canada. in the country.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is leave granted, honourable It is going to be a good year before we pull this thing together, senators? but it will be, in our opinion, a seminal piece of research for the future instead of simply looking at the problem today and seeing what we’re doing and not doing. We want to influence the future Hon. Senators: Agreed. in regard to how we handle our potential casualties and reduce April 9, 2014 SENATE DEBATES 1365 them and the impact of those operations on them and their Ataullahjan McIntyre families. I ask colleagues to support and vote for this motion to Batters Meredith pass. Bellemare Mockler Beyak Nancy Ruth The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators Black Neufeld ready for the question? Boisvenu Ngo Buth Ogilvie Senator Day: Question. Carignan Oh Champagne Patterson The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, Dagenais Plett honourable senators, to adopt the motion? Demers Poirier Doyle Raine Hon. Senators: Agreed. Eaton Runciman Enverga Seidman (Motion agreed to.) Frum Seth Gerstein Smith (Saurel) [Translation] Greene Stewart Olsen Housakos Tannas BUSINESS OF THE SENATE Lang Unger LeBreton Verner The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, it MacDonald Wallace being four o’clock, pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate Maltais Wells on Thursday, February 6, 2014, I declare the Senate suspended Manning White—49 until 5:15 p.m., at which time the bells will ring for the taking of Martin the deferred division at 5:30 p.m. on Bill C-14. NAYS (The sitting of the Senate was suspended.) THE HONOURABLE SENATORS

. (1730) [English] Baker Hubley (The sitting of the Senate was resumed.) Callbeck Jaffer Campbell Joyal Chaput Lovelace Nicholas CRIMINAL CODE Charette-Poulin Massicotte NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT Cools McCoy Cordy Mercer BILL TO AMEND—THIRD READING Cowan Mitchell Dallaire Moore The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, it was moved by Dawson Munson the Honourable Senator McIntyre, seconded by the Honourable Day Ringuette Senator Dagenais: Dyck Robichaud Eggleton Sibbeston That Bill C-14, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and Fraser Tardif the National Defence Act (mental disorder), be read the Hervieux-Payette Watt—30 third time. ABSTENTIONS Motion agreed to and bill read third time and passed, on the THE HONOURABLE SENATORS following division:

YEAS THE HONOURABLE SENATORS Nolin—1

(The Senate adjourned until Thursday, April 10, 2014, at Andreychuk McInnis 1:30 p.m.) CONTENTS Wednesday, April 9, 2014

PAGE PAGE

SENATORS’ STATEMENTS ORDERS OF THE DAY

Rwandan Genocide Business of the Senate Twentieth Anniversary. Hon. Yonah Martin ...... 1351 Hon. Roméo Antonius Dallaire ...... 1343 Statutory Instruments Act Battle of Vimy Ridge Statutory Instruments Regulations (Bill S-2) Ninety-seventh Anniversary. Bill to Amend—Third Reading. Hon. Daniel Lang ...... 1343 Hon. David M. Wells ...... 1351 World War I Hon. Céline Hervieux-Payette ...... 1352 Role of French Canadians. Hon. Joseph A. Day...... 1354 Hon. Serge Joyal ...... 1344 Economic Action Plan 2014 Bill, No. 1 (Bill C-31) Violence against Children and Youth Certain Committees Authorized to Study Subject Matter. Hon. Jacques Demers ...... 1344 Motion in Amendment. National Volunteer Week Hon. Elizabeth Marshall ...... 1355 Hon. Catherine S. Callbeck ...... 1345 Hon. Joan Fraser ...... 1355 Hon. Joseph A. Day...... 1355 Rwandan Genocide Hon. Fernand Robichaud ...... 1355 Twentieth Anniversary. Hon. Andrée Champagne ...... 1346 The Estimates, 2013-14 Main Estimates—Seventh Report of National Finance Committee Adopted. Hon. Catherine S. Callbeck ...... 1356 ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Lincoln Alexander Day Bill (Bill S-213) Adjournment Sixth Report of Social Affairs, Science and Technology Notice of Motion. Committee Adopted ...... 1358 Hon. Yonah Martin ...... 1346 Canada Elections Act (Bill S-215) Bill to Amend—Second Reading—Debate Adjourned. Hon. Dennis Dawson ...... 1358 QUESTION PERIOD Canadian Human Rights Act Criminal Code (Bill C-279) Democratic Reform Bill to Amend—Second Reading—Debate Continued. Fair Elections Bill. Hon. Yonah Martin ...... 1362 Hon. Jane Cordy ...... 1346 Hon. Claude Carignan ...... 1346 Social Affairs, Science and Technology Business of the Senate Budget and Authorization to Engage Services—Study on the The Hon. the Speaker...... 1348 Increasing Incidence of Obesity—Seventh Report of Hon. Jane Cordy ...... 1348 Committee Adopted. Hon. Kelvin Kenneth Ogilvie ...... 1362 Democratic Reform Fair Elections Bill. Conflict of Interest for Senators Hon. Joan Fraser ...... 1348 Budget—Fourth Report of Committee Adopted. Hon. Claude Carignan ...... 1348 Hon. A. Raynell Andreychuk ...... 1362 Hon. James S. Cowan...... 1348

National Revenue Social Affairs, Science and Technology Canada Revenue Agency—Security. Budget—Study on Prescription Pharmaceuticals—Eighth Hon. Leo Housakos ...... 1349 Report of Committee Adopted. Hon. Claude Carignan ...... 1349 Hon. Kelvin Kenneth Ogilvie ...... 1362

Employment and Social Development Human Rights Protection of Privacy. Budget—Study on Issue of Cyberbullying—Fifth Report of Hon. Pierrette Ringuette ...... 1350 Committee Adopted. Hon. Claude Carignan ...... 1350 Hon. Mobina S. B. Jaffer ...... 1363 Question of Privilege Hon. Joseph A. Day...... 1363 Hon. Tom McInnis ...... 1350 Hon. Jane Cordy ...... 1350 Tour of Alberta Inquiry—Debate Continued. Hon. Joseph A. Day...... 1363 PAGE PAGE

National Security and Defence Business of the Senate Committee Authorized to Study the Medical, Social, and The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore...... 1365 Operational Impacts of Mental Health Issues Affecting Serving and Retired Members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the Services and Benefits Provided to Members and Criminal Code their Families—Motion in Modification Adopted. National Defence Act (Bill C-14) Hon. Roméo Antonius Dallaire ...... 1364 Bill to Amend—Third Reading ...... 1365 Published by the Senate Available on the Internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca