Cofnod Y Trafodion the Record of Proceedings
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Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings Y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol The Health and Social Care Committee 01/10/2015 Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor Committee Transcripts Cynnwys Contents 4 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions 5 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 13 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 13 22 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 14 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 14 40 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 15 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 15 55 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 16 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 16 75 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 17 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 17 84 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note 84 Cynnig o dan Reolau Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd Motion under Standing Orders 17.42(vi) and (ix) to Resolve to Exclude the Public Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. 01/10/2015 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Alun Davies Llafur Labour John Griffiths Llafur Labour Altaf Hussain Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Lynne Neagle Llafur Labour Gwyn R. Price Llafur Labour David Rees Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Labour (Committee Chair) Lindsay Whittle Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Kirsty Williams Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Dr Phil Banfield Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain (Cymru) British Medical Association (Wales) Yr Athro/Professor Ymchwil Canser y DU Linda Bauld Cancer Research UK Yr Athro/Professor Canolfan y DU ar gyfer Astudiaethau Tybaco ac John Britton Alcohol ac Ymgynghorydd mewn Meddygaeth Resbiradol, Prifysgol Nottingham ac Ysbyty Dinas Nottingham UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies and Consultant in Respiratory Medicine, University of Nottingham and Nottingham City Hospital Beverlea Frowen Coleg Brenhinol y Meddygon Royal College of Physicians Yr Athro/Professor Canolfan Astudio Tybaco ac Alcohol y DU, a Peter Hajek chydawdur yr adroddiad ‘E-cigarettes: an evidence update’ UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies, and co- 3 01/10/2015 author of the Public Health England commissioned report ‘E-cigarettes: an evidence update’ Dr Iain Kennedy Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain (Cymru) British Medical Association (Wales) Dr Steven Macey ASH Cymru Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) Wales Yr Athro/Professor Cyfadran Iechyd Cyhoeddus y DU Alan Maryon-Davis UK Faculty of Public Health Jamie Matthews ASH Cymru Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) Wales Dr Alan Rees Coleg Brenhinol y Meddygon Royal College of Physicians Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Sian Giddins Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol Legal Adviser Cath Hunt Clerc Clerk Philippa Watkins Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service Dechreuodd rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod am 09:36. The public part of the meeting began at 09:36. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions [1] David Rees: Good morning. Can I welcome Members and the public to this morning’s meeting of the Health and Social Care Committee, where we’ll be continuing our evidence collection in relation to the Public Health (Wales) Bill? Can I remind Members that the meeting is bilingual? If you require simultaneous translation from Welsh to English, the headphones are available, and please use channel 1; if you require amplification, the headphones are available and it’s channel 2. There is no scheduled fire alarm this morning, so, if one does occur, please follow the directions of the ushers. Can I also remind and ask Members to either turn their mobile phones off or put them to ‘silent’, and any other equipment that may make 4 01/10/2015 noises, so that they don’t interfere with the business of the committee this morning? We’ve received apologies from Darren Millar and Elin Jones, and Alun Davies has indicated that, unfortunately, due to the current traffic issues in Cardiff, he’s going to be running a little bit late. 09:37 Bil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 13 Public Health (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 13 [2] David Rees: The main purpose of today’s sessions is actually to focus on Part 2 of the Public Health (Wales) Bill, the smoking and use of nicotine- inhaling devices. Therefore, our first session is with Dr Steven Macey, who is the research and policy officer of Action on Smoking and Health, or ASH, Wales Cymru—welcome—and Jamie Matthews, who is actually head of communications and public affairs with Action on Smoking and Health Wales Cymru. Can I welcome you both, and can I thank ASH for the written submission we received? We’ll go straight into questions, if that’s okay with you. Therefore, can I open with Gwyn Price, please? [3] Gwyn R. Price: Thank you, Chair. Good morning, both. Do you think that we should be concerned about young people starting to use e- cigarettes? [4] Mr Matthews: Thank you for the question. As we know, e-cigarettes are a new phenomenon, relatively, so obviously it’s right to have concerns that young people are using e-cigarettes. From what we know from the available evidence at the moment, there is experimentation going on with young people, but the evidence isn’t there at the moment to show any long- term use. So, definitely, they’re experimenting, like young people do with lots of things, including tobacco, but at the moment the evidence isn’t showing any long-term use or any gateway into tobacco. So, that is what we would say at the moment. [5] David Rees: Can I ask—? You talk about the long term, and, obviously, because the product hasn’t been in existence for long, I suppose there isn’t any evidence either way of long-term implications. That’s one of the concerns, I think, at the moment: that there seems to be a lack of long-term information and evidence available. [6] Mr Matthews: I think that’s right. It’s the same on both sides: the 5 01/10/2015 evidence isn’t strong, but, at the moment, there isn’t a concern. So, I think what we would say, and we did say in our consultation response, is you absolutely have to monitor this. We have to keep an eye on this. Regardless of where this Bill goes, you absolutely have to keep an eye on the situation that there isn’t any long-term use and there isn’t a gateway to tobacco. As I say, the evidence isn’t there to show that at the moment. I think, with regard to young people, the one concern that we would have—and this isn’t really relevant to this Bill, but it’s relevant to the wider issue—is that marketing isn’t targeted at young people. But there’s other legislation coming our way: as of today, it’s illegal to sell an e-cigarette to an under 18, and also directives coming down from Europe are going to have far more restrictions on the marketing that’s targeted at young people. So, there is protection there for young people that’s outside of this Bill’s remit. [7] Dr Macey: Just to add to that as well, the vast majority of the evidence that does exist at the moment shows that e-cigarette use is largely amongst smokers and ex-smokers, including among young people. Those that are using them are ex-smokers and smokers, so that’s the evidence that’s out there at the moment. [8] Gwyn R. Price: My concern, really, was the way they’re selling the products and the flavours that they’ll be putting out may attract younger people. I think we need to monitor that carefully. [9] Dr Macey: Definitely, and that’s our position as well—to monitor the use and monitor the different types of flavour that are out there and their use of them by—. [10] Gwyn R. Price: Targeting. [11] Dr Macey: Yes. [12] Gwyn R. Price: Thank you. [13] David Rees: John. [14] John Griffiths: Can I ask, in terms of people breathing in the vapour, how confident are you that there are no significant health risks to people breathing in other people’s vaping in an enclosed public space? [15] Dr Macey: We can only go on the evidence that’s out there at the 6 01/10/2015 moment. At the moment, there is no evidence that it’s causing harm to people and bystanders; there’s no evidence of that at all. You know, we’re not in a position to say that that will never change, but we can go on the evidence that’s there at the moment, and there is no evidence that it’s causing any harm. It’s a lot, lot—. The vast majority of the evidence is that they’re a lot less harmful than tobacco cigarette smoke is. You know, there are far fewer carcinogens in them and the toxicity levels are a lot lower in e- cigarettes. So, the evidence that is out there at the moment is that there is no evidence that there’s any harm to bystanders from the second-hand vaping. [16] John Griffiths: So, would you have any sympathy with the view that it’s necessary to take a precautionary approach because it’s fairly early days for e-cigarettes and, as you say, there may be a lack of evidence one way or the other in terms of the potential harm, both to those that use e-cigarettes and those that may breathe in other people’s vaping? Would you have any sympathy for that view—that a precautionary approach is required in those circumstances? [17] Dr Macey: The issue that we have with that is that e-cigarettes are being used by people to give up smoking, and there is obviously definite harm from smoking—it’s a major killer and the harm caused by smoking is unequivocal.