[23 NOVEMBER, 1933.] 2075

Mr. PLESSE: Some people are very Hundreds of matters are referred to that good to them. It is perhaps to be re- organisation. gretted that more has not been done for Mr. W~ise: More unworthy objects than the aborigines. Except for the Protector this have perhaps received help. of Aborigines, it seems to be nobody's The MINISTER FOR POLICE: I will business to look after them. I make no assist the hon. member to place this matter apology whatever for stressing the neces- before the commission, but I object to any sity for doing something for them, be- unnecessary amendment being embodied in cause I know from experience what they the Act. In fact, the proposed new clause have suffered. Some of them have had is completely out of order. barely sufficient food to keep them alive. The CHAIRMAN: That is a reflection After all, if the clause were inserted in upon the Chair. the Bill, there would be some direction to The MINISTER FOR POLICE: I apolo- the Lotteries Commission that the abori-_ gise. The object itself is a worthy one, and gines are entitled to something. They are should receive consideration at the hands of human beings. Some people seem to think the commission, but it should not be speci- they have no soul and no feelings. It IS fied in the way suggested, in an Act. of Par- scandalous to think that little children, some of them almost as %vhite as our owvn liament. have to stiffer as thnese children little suf- New clause put anld nlegatived. fered during recent years. Title agreed to. The Premier: At Wagin the people Bill reported without amendment and the would not let some of them go to the same report adopted. school as their step-brothers and step- sisters. Mr. PIESSE: Perhaps that is so. BILLS (2)-RETURNED. The CHAIRMAN: I do not think we I, Land Tax and Income Tax. had better discuss that to-night. Without amendment. Air. PIESSE: At present there is no instruction to the Lotteries Commissionlhr 2, Constitution Acts Amendment. this House that the aborigines should be With amendments. provided for. The Premier: 'This would not he ain in- House adjourned (it 11.3 p.m. struction to them. Mr. PIESSE: It would be specified in the Act. The Premier: It would not be an in- struction. The PIESSE: The Commnission would take it as an indication that the aboiti- gines were provided for by the Act. The MINISTER FOR POLICE: I de- sire to make it -very clear that I1 do not oppose the elau~e, because I consider the lcoitsative Eesemblvp, object to be a worthy one, but it is un- necessary to include the clause in the Bill. Thursday, 2 3,4 Nov-ember.v 1933. ,There is ample provision already. Re- presentation canl be made to the right I'A.d' quarter for this matter to be dealt with. toan Estimate,, messuge. Con), of Siuruy .. 2076 Bills9: toteres fControl) Act Awcendn-e,,l (No. 2), It is the opinion of members that the 3R...... 2085 commission should have a free hand, that Constitution Acts Amendnent, Council's nercud- 2085 they should not be influenced in any way Bealthmen"s...... Act Amendment (No. 21, 2n.. ... 2086 and that the Minister should have no con- Stute Transport Co-ordinatfon. Con,.. ... 2001 trol over the commission. I am surprised that the hon. member has allowed 12 months to elapse before making represen- The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 tations to the commission on this subject. p.m., and read prayvers. '2076 [ASSEMBLY.]

LOAN ESTIMATES, 1933-34. once, would inevitably result iii a largely in- creased deficit. As we know, deficits axe Message. always covered by borrowed money. So, if Message from the Lieut.-Governor received instead of borrowing money now in order and read, transmitting the Loan Estimates to employ ni, we had at reduced amount for the year 1933-34 and recommendinig ap- and kept them onl sustenance, our sustenance propriation. expenditure from revenue would be about double, arid consequently our deficit for the In Comm~ittee of Supply, year would be increased by £300,000 or The House hra ing, resolved inrte Committee £400,000, and so we would have to borrow of Supply. to consider tile IALmi Estimates; that mioney' to meet our deficit. Therefore, Mr. Slecinan in the Chair. it is the ]letter policy to do it this way, by wvhiclh men will be occupied in some useful Vote-Departmental, £82, 059. wvork, titan it would be to keep thorn on srus- tenance, under which system no results at all THE PREMIER AND TREASURER would be obtained, and still we would have (Hon. P. Collier-Boulder) [4.33]: The to ho rrow anl equal amount at the end of the total Loin Estimates for this year show a flinancial veer to make good the deficit in- substantial increase on the expendithire of eurred by the larger expenditure of money last year. I am aware that there is it con- onl sustenance. siderable volume of thoughlt in the comlmun- The -Minister for Emiploymient And the ity that in these times the loan expendituire effect on the in wvould be detrinmental. ought to be considerably curtailed. But lhav- Tile PREMIER: Yes, that is so No one ing regard to the fact that industr ' has not will ( uestiom that even the sturdiest men yet recovered 1 from the depression of the last deteriorate when unemployed, lose their three years, and that consequentl Iy large character arid individuality when they have numbers of melt are not being employed in been on sustenance for two or three years. industry as they' were formerly, there is need That is inevitable in even the best of men. for Government to do somuethinig in the war So it is much better that we should obtain of finding work for those niumibers who have money by these means to get them employed, been unemployed for so long a period. It more particularly as the financial results wvill is argued, too, that to go in for any consider- ho just thle same; for had we not obtained able amount of loan expenditure oniy adds this increased amount of loan money this to our difficulties in finlancing, in that it in- yea," nor expenditure on sustenance would creases expenditure onl the Revenue Esti- Ire just about double what we expect it to mates in order to meet interest charges. But be, arid that would add to our deficit, and when one examines the situa tiorn, it is fonrd thle money wvould have to lie borrowed at the that that is not really so. It is much better end of tire year. So the larger amuounit of to borrow money to-da 'y in order to find loan money does not in fact increase our wvork for the men who are out of work, to indebtedness for the year. The amount puit themi into useful employment in the asked for this year is £2,686,311. Tile ex- community, if not on entirely r-eproductive penditure last year was £2,217,982, or ant work-because nobody wvould claim thnlt thre increase of £E46,329. As I say, if we had whole of the work on which our sustenance obtained oly.) tfe amount of last year, that men are being engaged is of a directly re- £463,329 would have shown as expenditure productive charaeter. Yet it is I think, or in the Revenue Estimates, and would have to most of it will be, indirectly reproductive. be borrowed to make good the difference. The in that thre State will get the benefit of it in expenditure last year was as follows- the expenditure in the years to come. But £; if those men were not employed on works Departmental . 72,705 from loan funds, there would be a charge on Railways arnd Tramiways 178,889 Harbours 235,722 revenue for sustenance. That, ultimately, Water Supply 737,241 is a charge upon loan funds, seeing that the Development of Goldfields 29,558 State has a very considerable deficit of about 1Developnient of Agriculture 735,156 three-quarters of a million whtich, if that 11iscellaneous 226,681 money were not borrowed in order to em- The increased expenditure this year is ploy those men and so take them off susten- rendered possible by the provision of [23 NovE311M 1933.1 2077 the adlditional loan mone y which we have The PREMIER: Yes, that has been the been able to obtain throughb the Loan Coun- practice for a number of years: it has been eii. Last year the total available was paid out of suspense and recouped over a £2,100,000, including rho Commonwealth numyber of years to the fund. All relaying Grant for relief of unemployment. £145,000, is dlone on that principle. which was not a loan at all but was a grant Mr Stubbs: It does not include new from the Commonwealth for the relief of rolling stock? unenmploymen t, and was not shown i a the Loan Estimates. This year we anticipate that The PREMI1ER: No. There is on the the sumn which will be available to the Gov- Estimates provision for additional rolling ermnent is £2,750,000. Its distribution wvill stock, which is urgvntly needed. The sumn be as follows: of £300,000 is for additions and improve- meats to railways and £20,000 has been pro- Dlepartmenatal 82,259 vided for aidditional stock. The principal Railways andt 'raniwaiy. . 404,500 work will be the super-heating of locomo- Iftrbouirs ...... 260,000 tives and thle construction of 50 sheep Water Supplyi -. 785,.50) Deveinpatent of I;Oldlicls . 1,10,000 trucks. The principal works at present in lkvcllc,1 ,,eii of Agriculture .. 798.052 hand are the 'Spencer's Brook-Northamn Miscellaneous .37,.00 duplication, estimated to co.st £30,000, and Hon. IV. D. Johnson: How will that the duplication east of tile tunnel, estimated lonle ' be secured? There is no gr~ant. to cost £47,000. Other works which were The PREMIER: No. Harbours will earn in hand at the end of the last financial year, their own cost, mod water supply will cover and which will be completed this year, are its own cost. but I am not sure abort agri- the Bridgetown-Jarnadu p railway, the Lake culture covering its owvn interest charges. Crace-Karlgarin railway, and th MAeeka- The greater proportion of the increased ex- tharra-Wiluna. railway. Expenditure will penditure for this year relates to r3ilways. also be incurred in the deviation of the Provision is made for two new, lines, Yuna- Eastern Goldfields line between Kellerberrin Dlartmoor £10,000, and Southern Cross- and Bungulla; the regrading at Hines Hill, southward £10,000. But most of the rail- estimated to cost £45,000; the completion of way expenditure w'ill be onl additions and the M.,nllewa-Narngulu regrading. estimated 'impovmet to open railways, for which to cost .36,000; and sundry minor works £E300,000 is provided as against an expendi- estimated to cost £62,000. Tfle regrading ture last year of £76,697. This is a ver of railways is very valuable work. As a great increase, front £766,697 spent last matter of fact, I cannot understand why year additions and improvements ft open Governments in past years have not pro- railways, as against £300,000 provided this ceeded with it, because we have long year. The increase, of course, is due to stretches of railway, about four-fifths of curtailment of expenditure in past years, which is of a good even grade. It might be which necessitates increased aflocat~ons on one in 80. Then we have a few miles where additions and improvements this year. A the grade is one in 40 and, of course, the fairly large part of that sumn is for what load that an engine can draw is governed are known as belated repairs. In ordinary by the steepest grade on the line. I eamvery circumstances this money would be found sorry that Parliament did not embark on from general revenue, but it is not possible this regrading work many years ago. If to do it now; in fact it has not been done one travels on some of the south-western at all for many years past; so it is paid railways, particularly on the lines to Bridge- from loan and will be recouped by allo- town and from Brunswick to Collie, one can cating the amount from working expenses get out and walk alongside the train nearly over a number of years; instead of charg- all the way. That, of course, greatly in- ing the whole of the expenditure this year creases running costs and involves loss of to working expenses, it will be paid out of time, whilst limiting the weight of the load loan and will be recouped out of working to be pulled, and so on. Regrading is really expenses over a number of years. reproductive work, because it will lower the Hon. W. D. Johnson: That will be a new operating cost of the railways and trust fund, which we have not had in the so benefit the whole system. In trying past. to map out a programme of employment (ASSEMBLY.]

upon wrhich to spend the loan money Budget. That work is not being provided that will be available this year) we have for iii this year's Loan Estilnates.' The sought as far as possible to proceed with mlethod of financing it was discussed at tils regradiug work, and we have been the recent meeting of the Loan Council and assisted in our efforts by the engineers, of it is, hoped that the 'whole of thle expendi- the department. The whole of the money ture can be inceurred withouit placing an will be expended upon labour, as no JneWA unldue strain on loan resources. lon, mnem- material will he required. The grade will bers are no doubt familiar with what is simply be lowered and the rails put dowil proposed to be done in this connection asi. again. The Government consider that rc- a result of statements that appeared in the grading is economical, useful and repro- Press, particularly tile statement nmade by ductive and, as 1 say, it will resuit in it the Minister for Works on his retuiri froiL reduction of the working co.sts of the rail- tile mucetilmg of the Loan Council. In brief, ways in the years to come. it is proposed to purchase the ilatorial re- Air. Latha.: Regrading can hardly be quired, by the issue of debentures, whlich called belated repairs. will be repayable over a period of 15 years. The PREMINIER.: I am not dealing with One debenture will be redeemed out of the belated repairs. General LJoan Fund eachi year. The cost Mr. Latbam: Of course, the cost will is estimated at £460,000 and, instead of come out of the £300,000. having to find the whole of that amount The PBKIII~ll: I did not say that this year, one-fifteenth of thle total amount £300,000 was for -belated repairs only. That will appear in eachi year's Loan Estimates. sum covers all additions and improvements, Thle amiount -will he raised in Great Britain. including regrading. If 1. conveyed tihat Mr. Stubbs: At what. rate of interest, 5 impression, I did not intend to do so. per cent.? IMr. Latham: Really, a big, portion of The PREMER : No0, not mo1re than. 4 the £300,000 is for deviation and regrading. per cent. The rate has Ilot yet been settled, The PREMIER: Yes. In round figures, hilt I amn quite certain the money can 6o the belated repairs will cost £100,000. The obtained at 4 per cent. other works I have enumerated, regrading, MNr. Latham : Four p)er cent. in England deviation represents 5 per' cent, here. Mr. Lathamn- They wvii run into about Thu PREMIER: Yes, wvith exchaiige £150,000. added, The PREM1JEiI: Yes. In the Estimates Mr.i Lathami: You have not yet really the sum of £10,000 is provided to complete completed yonr arranigements?, thie installation of the trolley buses. Mr. Latham: That is already spent. The PREIMIER: No, The consent of the Loan Council must be obtained aild that is The PREMIER: Yes, but it comes into being sought now. Imimediately' the consent this year's Estimates. The sam of £.10,000 is given-it is being obtained is provided for proposed extensions of the by telegram tramlines at Victoria Park and Wembley. fromn the members of the Loan Council- I know mativ members will question the I hope to introduce a Bill giving wisdom of further tramnway construction at us the necessary authority to lproceed on this stage, when everything is uncertain those lines. NKegotiations with mnanufac- with respect to transport in the future; but turers w;'lo will be tcnderilng for the sup- these are not new lines, they are merely ply of material disclose that the nmethlod short extensions of existing lines designed of finance I have suggested -will be satis- to serve increasing population beyond the factory to them. There are several firms termini of thie existing lines. Buses would and companies in Great Britain who are no t he lpre~parled to enter for that service. ivillinm to tender, so that it will not be a %fr. Thorn: IHave you got the rails? question of letting thle contract to one par- Thle PIIEMIEII-: Yes. aind they) are paid ticuilar firmi or company. There will be for: so we ma~y as well l)IoceCd with the competition, because, as I say, several comn- work. We could not organise a bus service painies are willing to finance an the basis for at short sLection of half a mile beyond I have mlentionled. I think the proposed ain existin~r triiinivav. Then there is; thle arrangement a very good one. We shall additional unit1 at I Ie East Perth poi- be able to raise the money at about the housze to whiclh relfrrenre was, marie on the saine rate of interest as we would have [23 NovEmBn3, 1933.] 272079 to pay if we borrowved it direct from Lon- expenditure on the jetty for this year is don. £C40,000. The piles are already being cut 21r. Lathamn, It would be cheaper to and the work will be commenced in Janu- borrow thet money here, if that were pos- ary anid proceeded with as rapidly as pos- ihle. sible, so thiat the jetty will be completed 'Vie l1IEMIER: It cannot be done. I do for the next harvest. The total estimated not know that it would be much cheaper, cost of the work is £120,000. At the close of either. Take the recent loan of Z10,000,- the last financial year, uwurk was in pro- 000;. that is not cheaper money than can gress at Fremantle, G'eraldton and Bun- be obtained in London. bury. WVork is, and has been, proceeding MNr. Latham: That was at 3J per cent. at those ports, with the exception of Bun- You will not get the mioney you require un- bury, each year. The expenditure is aa d~er 4 per cent. annual one and has not varied to any great Hon. W. D. Johnson: You have to pay ex- extent. A large sum of money has been change. expended on harbour works at Geraldton The PR'BEMIER: If we borrow the money during the past six or eight years and it is necessary to push on with it in order here we shall have to pay exchange just the same. The bank rate of interest to- to get it completed, so that full use nay he mnade of the harbour. The expenditure on ia nLondon is about I per ecet; in the Benbury fact, according to this morning's paper, harbour is heavier; in fact, it is a fraction under 1 per cent. the work there only commenced during the last financial Mr. Latham. ] hope you get it for I per year, so the ex- cent. penditure this year will be consider- ably in excess of that of last year. Tire PR IMIEII: Seeing that the bank I do not feel too confident about the rate in Londion is 1 per cent., I do not success of the Bunbury harbour op~erations. think there will he any difficulty whatever There has always beeni trouble there with in obtaining debentures at 3 /- per cent., biecause that rate in Great Britain is con- silting and other things. This, however, is sidered very good, particularly if the secu- at serious attempt to remedy the difficulties, rity offered is gilt-edged, as Australian and wvill involve the State, not only in an stocks are considered to be to-day. With expenditure of £E40,000 for this Tear, but regard to harhours and rivers, the only somewhere about the same amiount for sev- new expenditure is on the Esperanee jetty. eral years to come. I hiope, as a result of Complaints have been received for some this expenditure, that our good friends at years past respecting the safety of that the port of Bunburv will bea satis;fied, and jetty. It is stated that it can only he teatse to have the g-rievaince iti regard to their uised in calmn weather, and the Lear has harbour that they' have nursed in their been expressed that vessels might refuse bosoms for sonic years. 7o load wheat there unless the jetty, is re- Mr. Withers: This is only a portion of the P.aired. As, a matter of fat an intima- Government scheme. tion was given by the agents of the ship- The PREMIER: There is always a Gov- owuers that they would refuse to allow erment scheme, It is like the expenditure vessels to p~roceed to Esperance to lif t of loan money in many other directions. A]- wheat, on account of the danger to ship- though it is n~ot immediately reproductive, it ping. Having regard to the large amount will be reproductive at some time. In years of public funds invested in thre Esperance gone by we have justified the expenditure district, per medium of the Agricultural of considerable sums of money on the ground Bank, and the expenditure there on rail- that it will ultimately prove replroductiv-e. way's and water supplies, it is considered Mr. Doney: Do you mean that by the ex- advisable to proceed with this work, be- cause unless shipping facilities are pro- penditure of the larger sum this year you vided it is possible that all the money are likely to overcome the silting difficulty? spent in the district will be lost. Although The PREMTIER : I am looking- forward the amount inivolved is considerable, there to further considerable exp~enditure next is no escaping the expenditure unless, as year. What I am concerned about is that, Isay, we are prepared to abandon the even when the job is supposed to be com- Esperance district and write off all the pleted, we may not have overcome the silting public money invested there. The estimated difficulty. [76] [ASSEMBLY.]

NMr. Donley': That is the doubt that is to provide sewerage connections as sooui as troubling me. the plans are prepared. Mr. Ferguson : It is a Kathleen 3lavonr- IMr. Raphael: Did you say Victoria Pa rk?1 neen expenditure. The PREMNIER: That will come into an- The PR3EMIER: That nun- hle so. it other scheme south of the river. The Claire- regard to water supplies, the only new work mont scheme will link up with that of Subi- on hand is the crnuneneeanent ot the dani ace, and the sewerage will be earried at Canining. Thiis has been und~r considera- off through the same outfall. The sua tion for many years. It is evident that with of £C120,000 is provided this year for the growth of the population in the metro- renovations and extensions to water supply politan area, and the consequent increase in mains. The expenditure onl this wvork last the amount of water required, the provision year wvas £102,505. It is hoped that by re- of aii adequate water supply can 110 longer lining the water mains their lite will be be delayed. The alternative would] be to in- considerably extended and the quality of crease the numbe~r of bores. That is not the wvater improved, a very desirable object. eonsidere.d desirable. 'Fie total cost of the This will please the member for North darn is estimated at X1,20000. Its eoni- Perth. In connection with water supplips struetion will be spread over eight years. It for towns, it is proposed to construct a new should be possible to draw upon the dam reservoir at Collie, whilst at Geraldton ox- in the summer of 1935-36, and from then onl tensive improvements to the reservoir and anl increased supply wvill be available each mains will be carried out. year. This is not included in the general Mr. Lathamn: Is the work not finished amount st down for water supply, but a there yet9 suin of £80,000 is provided for this year. The PRElflER.: It is like the Bunbury The sewerage and drainage works in the harbour. When one scheme is completed, metropolitan area were continued last year it is found necessary to start another. 1 at a cost of £216,085. The area where the think this is the third scheme that has been operations%are being con1tinued is comnpr'ise([ gone on with at Geraldton; it is certainly in portions of Nedlands, Hollywood and the second one. Wembley. Drainage WOrks, were provided The Minister for Railways: It is only a in the Maylands-Inglewood district, and a quiestion of replacing the mains. e-ommeneement has been made with drain- The PREMIER: It appears that e-xtremne age at Shenton Park. It is4 proposed to con- difficulty has been experienced at Gerald- tinue these works throughout the year. A ton in obtaining a satisfactory catchment sum of £120,000 has been provided. area. The existing darn was roofed, over Mr. Stubbs: They are all. payable, are in order to prevent the evaporation of they not? water. A satisfactory water supply is of The PREIER: I, an afraid some are vital importance to Gerald ton, owing to the not payable. I do not know that the May- requirements of shipping as well a-s to the lands- Inglewood. drainage srhei, will pay. g'rowth of the town. Something munst be dlone there. For a number of years the MNr. Stubbs: A -good rate has been struck. people of Geraldton have suffered from the The PREMIER : YVes. The cost is heavy. worst water supply of any town of its It is a large drain of about 6 feet in dia- size in Australia. I went there on several meter.. It goes throughi a part of Maylailds occasions intending to stay a week, but eft which is not closiely populated, although the the next dlay. Other country towns have land itLseif will be rated. The department made requests for improvements to their charges a rate whether a person gets ainy water supplies, and each of these is being service or not. I have been paying rates oni investigated. The drainage and irrigation my place for 20 years. but there is no dra in- works of last year will be carried on dur- age there. The drains are lower down. I ing the present year. These were for the suppose the water froni my hill goes into niost part started by the previous Govern- those drains, and that this is wvhy I have to ment. The principal works arc--the Wel- carry my share of the rates. One lpayVs water lington dam and Collie River irrigation rates, also, whether the water is used or not. scheme, the Harvey River diversion, the A survey is being mnade of Claremont and Waroonia irrigation, and the snagging of the surrounding- disiricts, and it is proposed riyers. It is anticipated that the Welling- (23 XOvnMnER, 3933.1 2081 ton. dame will be coinpieted ibefore the cn The l'lPAMER: In sonmc parts of the of the yecar. Alost of the works are wl line the pressure is low on the gravitation Oil the wvaY to completion. The expenditure side, and wood pipes can lbe put in there, provided for this year shows a decrease hat wvhere the pressure is high, steel pipes onl tha t of last year of something like are used. Under the heading 'of develop- £:200,000. This is due to the fact that the iment of mining, the amount provided this works are nearing completion. The sum year is 111O,000% compared wvit~h £29,588 of £160,000 is provided for the goldfield- last year'. The excess expenditure is due to water uppiy. Last year the amount was the desire of the Government to encourage £C54,000. men who were previously on sustenance to Mfr. Stub~bs: 'The pi pe linie has been d]own take up prospecting. It is estimated that for 33 years. the prospecting scheme will cost about The IEMIrElt This money is required £C80,000 this year. About 2,000 men are en- for reconditioning and renewing the main gaged in it, and it is gratifying to note the pipe line iii order to prevent losses from number wvho have obtained satisfactory re- leakages. The renovations, which are only sults. it is also necessary to provide addi- to the main pipe line, and the cement lin- tional money for extensions to State bat- ing, will absorb £43,000, and newv wvood teries owing to the increase in the tonnage pipes will cost £64,000. The wood pipes are of ore sent in for treatment. An idea of being- made locallY from our own timber. the increase may be gathered from the fol- It is considered by the engineers that these lowing figures:- pipes, which have only been introduced dur- ing the last year or twvo, arc equal to steel 1st January to 31st October, 1932-64,739 tonls milled; 50,679 toins cyanided. pips. 1st January to 31st October, 1933-75,608 Mr. Stuibbs: Has their life beeni prove([? tonts mnild; 0SS.Q0 eviaided. The PREMIER: Very' exhaustive tests ,It is estimated that the quantities for have been made, and it was not until cat e- this ful consideration had been given to the year %vilI be 03,000 tons milled and 92,000 matter tha~t the engineers decided there was cyanided, a total of 1.85,000 tons, at the no risk in using, them. State batteries. Gold production for the first tell months of 1933 shows a gratifying Mr. Lathan: They have been used in Victoria. to in' knowledge for 20 years. increase over the production for the same jperiod in 1.032; .523,923 fine ounces have The PREMITEH: For steel pipes the sumi been produced this year, as against 499,551 of £51,000 has been provided. The main fine ounces last year. That is a bright spot hass beenI laid for so manyv ears that there in the industries of the State, as regards is considerable leakage all the way along the number of men employed and the in- the track. Thle pipes arc old, and consider- creaised tonnage treated not only at State ,able expense hasq to be incurred in patrol batteries bilt at all other batteries as well. work. For some years past the Railway )eparLtent have bieen obliged constantl We are reverting to something like the to patrol the railway line. The pipe lin yield we had 12 years ago. It is to be borne runs inside the railway fence, and, if ther in mind, too, that the price of gold is now was atserious burst, it might cause a wash- over £E6per ounce. I feel that many people iiway (i the line and bring about a serious do not realise the part the industry has accident. This lpatrol wvork costs between played in saving Western Australia from a £C5000 and £6,000 a year. The mistake was much wvorse position than otheirwise it made in the first place in running the pipe would have been in during the past two or line alongside the railwvay. In every ease three years. Under the hleading of "'Agri- where a new section is renewed, it is laid culture" there is an amount this year of away, from the railway, and that is why £788,000, compared with last years. expen- occasionailly we see a section of the pipe line diture of £73.5,000. Included in this year's a quarter of a mile from the train. This is amount is a sum of £325,000 for the Agri- dlone in order to mninimise the risk from cultural Bank; and £85,000 is provided for burst pipes and the possibility of a railway assistance to settlers under the Industries accident occurring. Assistance Board. The requirements of the Mr. Itodoreda: Why use any steel pipes Group Settlement Scheme call for a sum at all if wood pipes are satisfactory? of £47,000. The work covered by this [ASSEMBLY.] sum does not include certain special settle- jJrisL proved a failure because, of tile h-ick ments establishied by the previous Govern- of' trained foresters iii the department at ment, which are of necessity being con-* the tinie. l..atterlv the work has extended tinued, I refer to Nornalup, Nannup, and every vear; and f offer an invitation to Napier River. The numbers of settlers at lion, memlbers who would care to do so, and those three places are 79, 57, and 19 respec- ean makie the: necessary arrangements to tively. In addition, work on the Frankland visit the pine plantations behind the Mon- River land clearing is being continued. As daring %1Veir, on the catehient, of the regards the ]Forests Department, provision 1-lfleia River. 1 an sure very few mnem- is made for £10,000 for the current year's erand very few of the public know the work, and to clear last year's Loan Sus- ttstent of those pine plantations, and the pense Account of £10,052; a total of iagn ili ciit growth taking place there. £140,052. The whole of the £130,000 will Mr. Stubbs: Are our pine plantations be spent on relief work, and 90 per cent, of similar in quality to the pine we import? the expenditure will be in the form of The 1'R-.MIIR: Yes; high quality pine. -wages. The works. to be carried out are: The deovelopment in the eatchmnent of the Mundaring Weir is wonderful. 1 hope L lion. inembers will avail themselves of an Jarrab reforestation * . 0,200 Pine planutinig affot-estation 24,600 opportunity to visit it some day, so that halet reforestation .5,800 they may learn what is being done. Pine Karri reforestaition * 2,000 takes only about .30 'years to coitie to mnatu- Forests settlements *- 7,500 rity. If wve keep on planting year afier year, within 30 years we shall have a rota- It is proposed to continue thme work of estab- tion of crops in pine juzt as in harvests. lishing new crops of young timber on areas As a year's- requirements are cut, fresh heavily cut over byv both sawmillers amnd hiew- planting is continued, andi the saile Iground Tr,he following' pa rticuljars will indira te is gone over again and again. Thus we the nature of the work beig undertaken:- shall be enabled to sujplv our own re- Firstly, the opening tip of old timber tram- quirements. The pine plantations of France lines and tracks as lines of access; and are worth about £5,000,000 a year to that tracks the clearing of additional scraper country. The French just cut and plant to form a basis for controlled burning- opera- each year for their requirements, and there tions, thus eliminating the danger of serious is no risk of any shortage. The same thing fire damnage. Secondly, the thinning and could easily be done with the greater areas iinirovenient of existing re-growth which in Western Australia suitable for pine is capable of' developing into marketable planting. Tlhe undertaking has now been timber. Thirdly, re-stocking, by means or placed on a scientific basis. Alihough we natural regeneration, those -areas which are shall not get much benefit from it for a at present carrying only useless trees and few years, the next generation will reap malformed re-rowth. Next, as to pine, the advantage of the work now being done planting. The results of the work carried iii this direction. Taking in all costs, in- out during the past year have been most eluding interest on the money expended, encouraging. This year additional areas [lie erop will be profitable to the State. attached to existing plantations will be This year the Forests Department have cleared and prepared for planting, during also launched out in the direction of mal- the next season, in localities where past let re-forestation. The poorer classes of results justify the anticipation of success- country in the Narrogin district, hitherto ful growth. The object of this work is unproductive, are being utilised for the to provide for a large proportion of the propagation of mallet, the hark of which, softwood requirements of the State, for as is known to hon. members, is remark- which in normal years approximately £200,- ably rich in tannin. During last year 000 is sent overseas. The money is not 1,579 acres were sown, making the total even spent in Australia. The whole of area treated in this mlanner 3,978 acres. that annual expenditure of £200,000 -would Tt is proposed to sow a f urther area dur. have been saved to the State had we em- ig the current year, in conjunction with harked upon pine planting on proper lines the thinning of existing groups of natiir- long ago. ITt was done in a small way some ally regenerated forest, and further Ore- 30 years ago near Busselton, but the eater- lines will be extended. The fact that the [23 NovEskiiwn, 1933.] 282083

W\agin Municipality nil IRoad Hoard have Claremont 1l-spital for tasane the over- handed "over certain areas to the control crowdinrg is so great that the construction of the Forests; Depasrnient is indicative of or ani additional ward for female patients the public interest in reforestation of has. become imperative. The work has conm- waste lands with mallet. rhe local people nieneed, and £21,000 for it has beeni placed bare undertaken to look after the plarita- on those Loan. Estimates. The work is "err' ,in to keep a watch for fires, and gener- badly needed, and it could not be delayed ally to superintend the undertaking. As aIny longer. Extensions, long overdue, of regards karri reforestation, settlement has the -Midland ahattoirs have also been forced taken place over the hulk of the cut-over onl the Government, and ill. cost an addi- kairi forests, but a substantial area hasF tional X50,000 this yeas' The state of affais been dedicated[ as a Suite kairri forest. In exist ing there at present (toes not allowv thle the Manjimiup district considerable pro- work to he carried on in a prnper masu11ner, gress has also been made with regeneration Find would ultimately lead to trouble fail of karri, and smaller areas at Boranup andi possibly to loss. As a mnatter of faet, the Yanmah hare received atlention. At the Government snake a profit onl the running close ofT the last financial year at total of 8,700 acres of cut-over karri land had re- of the abattoirs. There is a good demnod ceived silvicuiltoral treatment. Ini the fos' assistance under the Workers' Romies Public Works Department £80,000 is pro- Act. At present 131 aplplications are being vided for roads and bridges, this sumi be- held. Thesec, at an average expenditure of ing irrespective of. expenditure by the a, little over £6N1, represent approxiniatulY Main Roads Board on Federal aid roads. £80,'000. From their own funds, represent- For the latter, this year's estimate ing repayment, the Workers' Homes Board is £545,000. as against last year's hare approximately £30,000 availalh' for exj)enditulre of £374,000. Last year's ex- investment during this financial yeas'. Allt penditure on roads and bridges was such fund., available up to the 31st lDecemn- £C83,000, nsadc up1as follows:- her next have already been absorbed. For £z sonic time applications have not bect] re- Boyup Brook-Craabrook' road 34,230 Arsuaulale- Br'olctosmroad 9,869 seiveil, owilsg to the hoard's inability to ad- Nan nup'Pesa bert on- ron r 8,17.5 vise applicants definitely wvhen these mant- 10,074 ters, will be finaliser. It is i'onsidet'ed that 17,636 If funds wtere available, utnerons a ppl ica- If thle member for \'elsonl (11r. J1. FL ionls would be lodged. In addition to the Smith) were present, he would be trlad to clo.000 of the hoard's hind--, ani amlounlt of hear that the !ioyup Brook-Granbrnok-road £35,000 is; providled onl these Lon stimlates, is ai road wliieh easi be turned into a railwvay. sna1king" ;L totall Of £65,000 for thle financeial Rails are very high in price, and the y'ea r. moniex for themn is sent overseas: but when Ar.Lathain: A considerable number of the State is is) a position to purchase the wos'ker's' homnes are on the bor' hands, necessary rails, they can be laid upon0 the ar'e they' not? road which is being constructed. Work onl The l'REMIEit: I do snot think so. the other roads is. still being carried oi, and] Mr. Latham: It is so, accos'ding to adver- all of them should be concluded this year. tisemnents4 onl the trains. In addition, reconstruction of the Mfesredin- Kalgoorlie, Geraldton-INorthsnpton. and Tlhe PRfEMIEMR: It mnay he that the Lake Gracc-Ravesistlsorpe roads has beets Workes' Homes Hoard advrstise that they pitt in hand. Public buildisigs are in a state have )iosnc. available, but these will lpro- of extrenie dilapidation, and have been so bably be soldiers' hiomes, thle property of the Repatriation Department, although ad- during the last few years. It is necessary 4 thereforu, to provide a large amount of ver-tise l as workers' homes. Reverting to money for renovations. In a number of the total of £65,000 available for the cur- cases the roofs are completely gone, guttes r'ent year, .1 should mention that applica- are allowing rainwater to run down the walls, tionls already on hand are more than 51inffi- and external painting has not been done for dient to absorb the asnount. years. it is impossible to allow this state Mr. Stubbs;: Many of them are ovet'- of affairs to continue any longer. At tile capitalised. [ASSEMBLY.]

The PREIER: Possibly, hut they were Ar. Hegiey: '[here are a. number ofV over-capitalised when the homes were under such areas around Bav'swater. the control of the Commonwealth. The PREM11IR: Anid also, .1 prestume, M~r. Latham : Civilians can buy those in pa;rts of Victoria Park. homes. Mr. Heg-ney: Anid ini Melville and ini Thre PREM[AIER: I suppose they can. Qrisen's Path. Mr. Doney: T know quite a number of The PREIMIEU : I have already pointed l'nmes, not Foldiers' homes, that are avail- out that the Housing- Trust cottages are nl- able and unoccupied. lined arid arc not fitted with bathrooms. The PR EFIRF: [ have not heard of The hoard would not consider erecting that. houses unless those features were included Mr.%])oiey: it is So. awl thre extra cost would representi between The PREMINIER: There are many locali- £70 arid £SO. Generally speaking, tire hoard ties where these houses could be constructed, exp~erience a full demand upon any funds but we are not receiving any applications mnade available. Regarding the Hfousing flow through the Workers' Homes Board, Trust, a)) the money at i ts disposal has because no money is available and there is been expended. It will be remembered that already a long list of applicants awaiting £7,000 was provided by Sir Charles MeNes conisideration, and £16,000 was; provided by the State from Mr. Rodoreda: The board require toe, the Commonwealth grant for the relief of rmuch for the old homes. unemployment, which amounted to £145,000. The PREM_%IE,"R: A suggestion was made My. Lathamn: The money was taken orit that the hoard should erect skeleton houses of time grant before the one you Imention. onl the outskirts of the metropolitan area. The PREMITER: At any rate, practic- Those homes would be at a lower cost than nlv £2,000 has been spent by the Trust in the ordinary -workers? homes, but the board erecting houses, and there is no money in do not favour the idea as they would re- the fund now. No new cottages have been present bad securities and would inevitably built for over 12 months. Small repay- result in a loss. Mroreover, it is considered menits that are received by the Trust are that such an action would bring the board heing it~ilised to complete the lining of in conflict with local authorities in regard hourses already erected. Very small repay- to permits. On tile other hand, I have no mrents are asked and if the tenant is not doubt that there are areas in the outer sin a p)osition to pay anything, no demand suburbs where such homes could be erected, is niarle upon him. Whiere they van pay aind would he permitted by the local authori- .5s. or so a week those payments are utilised ties, but, as I have indicated, the Workers' in the direction I have indicated. Homes Board rio not favour the proposal. Mr. Hegney: They are very comfortable homes for oldl age pensioners and for otho-rs Mfr. Hegney: I presume they would be ,who could not have a home otherwise. homes built after the style of those erected under the MeNess Fund, whichi cost about The PREMIER : The 'y rep~resenlt the ela.s; £250 each. of homse that, if money were availahie, conld weoll he provided for many people who can- The PREMIER: They would be some- thing along the same lines. The homes built not afford to avail themselves of mnore ex- under the provisions of the Housing Trust pensive dwellings. They might be able to Act, sire unlined , and have no bathrooms. finance the occupancy oF suchb homnes, -which They were built very cheaply. containi two or three comfortable little rooms. A-r. Latham: I think that is the sort .Vir. Marshall: They would be quite comi- of house that was contemplated when the fortable for invalids and for persons who suggestion for skeleton houses was made. are not in a position owing- to their health The PREMIER: Yes. Regarding the to engrage in work. erection of homes similar to those under the Tire PREMIER: And if they could afford Housing Trust Act, the board would con- 2s. Gd. or 5s. a week, they could provide sier applications of that description for themselves with a fairly comfortable honme. the erection of homes in suitable areas. If theyv were not in a position to pay an- Those homes cost approximately £260, but thing, they could get them free. If I could are constructed of timber and could only secure the money by some means-if we were be erected in limited areas, where permitted to have a windfall or some charitably dis- by the local authorities. posed person were to, provide the necessaryV [23 N_\1vEMB1ER, 1933.]108 208.5 fundis-r would be only too pleased to cx- No. 1. Clause 2-Delete this clause. teud the scheme. The M1INISTER FOR POLICE: As the Miss; H1ohan: And in the country areas, Bill left this Chamber it contained two too ? clauses, one relating to exemption from The PREMI%[ER : There are many people disqualification under the Constitution Act who to-day have to live in lodging houses of any inemler of Parliament who is or rooms, who would be better off if they also a member of the Lotteries. Comn- had the advantage of one of these comfort- mnission, and the other emibodlied the Lame able little cottages, erected in one or other provision but had application to future ap- of the outer suburbs. Of course, the homes pointments. Trhe Council ]Lave amended the have been provided for indigent persons and Bill by deleting both those clauses and 3uh- very small payments, if any at all, have stitutiag another clause embracing the two been required fromt approved applicants. struck out. The effect of the amendmnents The average cost, according to the particu- is thant practically the samen provisions wvil] lars supplied to me, is rather higher than I be included in one clautse of the Bill, but thought, heehuse I' note that it ranges fromn thtev will extend only to the end of 1984, in- £C250 to £300. stead of 1036 as originally Provided. Mr. La tham: They are four-roomed houses The clause will validate what has been with a back verandah. done in the past, but that provision The PREMIER: Sometaning like the cot- will not extend beyond the end of 1934. tages on the group settlements? .have consulted the Crown Law authorities, 31r. Latham: Yes, the same design. who agree that this one clause will have the The PREMIER: The cost indicated is samte effect as the two clauses contained in about the same as that of it group cottage. the prior Bill. The Crown Law authorities They arc quite comfortable and if lined and arc iatislied that the Bill will overcome the bathrooms are provided, they would be quite constituttional ditficniltv. desirable, particularly for people who hare WVith readto the extension of the term, I agree there should no possibility whatever of securing for them- be at limitation. I have no selves more elaborate homes. objection to that. 1 move- 'Mr. Hegney:- They are much better than hundreds of people have in noy electorate. That the amnendnient be agreed to. The PREMIER:- And if money were avail- Question put and] passed: the Council's able I would only he too glad to extend the anieuidient agreed to. ficheme. That is all I have to say regarding No. 2: Clouse 3--Delete this clause. the Loan Estimates, and I cornmend them to the consideration of members. They in- The MIiSTE13 FOR POLICE:. I dicate the best we have been able to do with niove- the nione *y at our disposal. That the amndmenint be agreed to. Progress reportod. Question put and passed; the Council's amnendmnrt agreed to. BILL-LOTTERIES (CONTROL) ACT No. : New Clause-Insert a new clause AMENDMENT (No. 2.) to stand as Clause 2, as follows:- Read a third time and transmitted to the 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of Council. section six of the Constitution Act, 1889, or .sections thirty-two, thirty-four, thirty-seven, thirty-eight, and thirty-nine of the Consti- BILLr-CONSTITUTION ACTS tuition Acts Amendment Act, 1890, no dis- AMENDMENT. ability, disqualification or penalty shall, be Coroimils Amendments. incurred by any person who is at present SQchedlule of three amendments made by both a inwiber of Parliament and a nem- the Concil, now considered. ber of the commission constituted under the Lotteries (Control) Act, 1932, by reason of In Committee. having accepted 01 continuing to hold be- -Ur. .Sleemni in thme Chair; the 'Minister fore or after the commencement of this Act for Police in charge of the Bill. thle office of a mnember of the said comluis- 2086 2086[ASSEMBLY.] sion or any eniolument pertaining to that somle erases, to instal electric light and other office, but no such office or emolument aris- Conveniences. Before a local authority can ing therefrom shall be held or enjoyed by proceed with a sewerage and deep drainagev any such member of Parliament beyond thle scheme, however, it is necessary that the 31st day of December. one thousand nine plans and specifications of tine scheme he hundred and thirty-four. submitted to the Government for approval, The MHI'iSTER .FOU POLICE: and 1 p~rcsumii, therefore, that they will be move- scrutinised with great care by the Govern- MeRt engineers before the Government ap- That the mtnndiniit h(, ngred to, prove (of them. Unifortunately, during re- Question put and passed; the Council's cent years, the ratepayers in many country amiendmnent agreed to. districts have been saddled with heavy rates ttix&, utilities already in Resolution reported, the report adopted, and for public and] a mfessijg ea;ceordingly returned to the existence. Thne depression has hit these council. country people very hard, owing- to the low prices they are receiving for their primary products. The point 1 am BILL-HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT leading to is the danger thle local gov- erlning bodies inav runl into if they (No. 2.) inr' expeniditure which tine ratepayers Second Reading. will not be able to pay. Debate resumed from the 21st NKovemuber. The Premier: The local governing bodies have to get the consent of the rate- MR. STUBBS (Wagin) [5.47]: Tlhe payers before they proceed with the work. Minister, when introducing the Bill last -Mr. STUBBS: The Prenuier is right. The week, explained that it was designed to give local governing- bodies in any part of the previous Labour Government constructed a reservoir in the Wagin district to supply State power to instal a system of sewerage lie town with water. The total cost was and drainagfe differing from the systems considerably above the amiount fixed by the already installed. Anything that has for its (Goverunnent as being all that the people object the improvement of the health condi- of Woagin could carry and it was ultimately tions of the people should receive the sup- written down to £C21,500. The interest on port of the House. Unfortunately. many thlat SUiM alone is a considerahie amount for country towns along the Great Southern a handful of people to pay. I use Waginl line have a contour that does not lend itself as anl illustration to show how easy it will to a cheap system of drainagfe. I speak be to throw on a town a burden which it of the towns along the Great Southern line will be unable to carry, especially in these because I arn more familiar with them than lean years. Tine inember for Albany (Mr. with towns in other parts of the State. Wansbrough) has mentioned that thle peo- Many of the towns seem to have been laid ple of that town found their rates and out on sauicer-shanped areas and the persons taxes so heavy that they were unable to meet themn. The Miinister stated that £05,- responsible for the planning of them are 000 is to be expended at Northam. L[ know greatly to blame. Going hack to the early nothing- about thle capabilities of Northant nineties, when the line was. constructed be- to provide time interest onl so large a suin, tween Albany and Perth, the railway en- as well as a sinking fund, in addition to gifteers followed the line of least resistance. meeting the load of debt it mna'y already They sureyed a track that involved the lie carr-1ying. The proposed s-hienle is onle company who built the line in the least pos- that reqjuires very careFul consideration. sible expense. The result is that towns Trie is not only thne actual cost (of eonl- along the Great Southern line are so situa- si rmntiun. but of muaintenanlce .111il hump- ted that to carry out a hygienic system for ing. 'If Wagin decided to instal a deep the removal of sewage and drainage is a drainage schelnn', I very much doubt if, very expensive task indeed. Most inunici- with the 2114 umillion galllons of water in palities and road hoards have borrowed tile reservoir, it could put tile Schnemne into sumrs of money to enable them to construct ope4ration. I amt lnt attemrpting to opipose roads, footpathls. and reservoirs and, in tile passage of the ill, but ain mnerely [23 NOVEMBER, 1933.] 2087

Pointing out wvhat a heavy burden will they were designed by men wvho were sup- be cast "pon the taxpayers in many parts piosed lo, be competent. of the State if it is decided to proceed The Premier: If the local authorities with schemes of the magnitude that Nor- make default, we canl take possession of thawn proposes to instal. the town hall. That would give us a good The Premier: Northam is a big town. income. Mir. STUBBS: It is larger than the Mr. STUBBS: Clauses 6 to 9 of the Bill towns in the Great Southern district, ex- either xepcal or amiend sections of the cept Albany. principal Act to conform to the new power The Premier: It is larger than Albany. Proposed to be given to local governing Mr. S' UBBS: Is that so? bodies. %nothier safeguard is that the The Premier: Yes, three or four times scheme must be approved by the Oovernor- larger. in-Council. Therefore, I take it that it will Mr. STU'BBS: Clause 2 of the Bill gives bear the hall mark of the Government's power to a local authority to raise mioney engineers. The Bill, in my opinion, should for the maintenance of' any sewerage nlot meet with any Opposition from momn- works. The other clauses of the Bill are hers of this Chamber. It is my intention principally machinery clauses. I shall men- to support the second reading. tion a fewv of the principal clauses and explain what they mean. Clause 3iextends MR. PIESSE (lKatanning) £6.0:] 1 eonl- the borrowing powers of a local authority' gratulato the M1inister for Health on having to enable it to provide sewerage and drain- introduced the Bill. It is desired to keep age; and the (bovcrnnient, if they choose, pa4ce with the growvth of our inland towns caOn ru a rahnitee (lhe aIn 0111t horrowed. and other centres of population and to The Premier: We have the security of instal a miodern sewerage system. I can the whole town. We have guaranteed[ u ndersta nd that the Bill would more closely larger sums for private individuals in one fit iii with a scheme that is to be embarked business. We have guaranteed as much upon01 by the imunicipality of Northam. as £60,000 for the Albany Woollen Mills, There, I believe, the question of deep sewver- and we have not much security there. age has been under consideration for some Mr. STUBBS: Are you likely to get the time. 'that town l, arrived at the stage £060,0,00 hack? at wvhich. with the app~lroval of thle rate- The Premier: I do not knowv payers, it c-an undertanke this work. From Mr. 'Marshall: What a boitt the (anar- the Minister's speech, and from what I know von treei.i, %vnits! Y'oul will not P et that of the people of Northam, there is every money back. possibility of the work being begun at no Mr. STUBBS: Clause 4 provides that distant date. But I am not so hopeful that the local authority may strike a special towns like Wagin, Narrogin and Katanning will be able to take advantage of this Bill rate, in addition to the rates they are aul- thorised to strike under the Municipali ties if it becomes law, though the local authori- Act and the Road Boards Act. ties in those places are hopeful in that direc- tion. As the 'Minister has pointed out, a The Premier: Blat councillors and road partial scheme was installed at Katanning. board members are men of judgment and It provided for the carrying away of liquid know wvhat the ratepayers can pay. waste, but only from a limited portion of Mr. STUBBS: I am coming to that. I the district. The local road board came to take it the men who are controlling the the conclusion that it would he very much affairs of local authorities are sensible men mor-e economical to sewer-age the liquid waste and will see that the scheme is a feasible than to lart it a-a'-, and 1'arliamuent was one. I am not altogether wedded to the iziiotl enloug11hilst ses~ionl at tilt reqilQet of thle proposal of allowing one particular en- road board, to I, ;11alo nziien~t of the gineer to design a scheme of drainage, be- Healthi .%(-t permnittinag ai poll of ratepax-crs cause in years gone by this House has had to be taken on that question. Then an agive- the experience of Government engineers ineat %%as arrived at with those people who making failures of works that they de- desired to use the service. That work was signed. Since I have been a member of carried out at a cost of £1,250, and I be- the House, I know of half-a-dozen big liere the cost of removing the liquid waste schemes that proved to be failures, yet was reduced by a third. The new system 2O88 [ASSEMBLY.] was also mchl healthier and imore sanitary. Mr. XNorthi: '.hie Bill wVilI apply to 11blurbs The waste was taken away through p~ipes also. and treated at a small seweage farm. A~s Mr. LATHA2L: It will apply every where. tile M1inister has pointed out, he has gone Sullicient consideration has not been giveni to considerable trouble preparing time Bill to the miatter, but what I aml mostly caon- that will give further power., in connection corned about is that we are handing to the with schemes such as I have referred to and Cjomomissioner of Health the control of the when tile time is ripe for townis like Katani- sewerage system. From a bacteriological ning, Wagin and Narrogin to undertake point of view lie may be qualified For call- complete sewerage, then we shall have a trol, hut not from th e engineering- Poinat of measure giving the local authorities the view. opportunity to do0 so. My oil]yN fear is that The Preimier : He Would have nothing to the Bill now before us may he passed rather o0 Wvilli that. hurriedly. ']here has not been any' opipor- Air. LATHAM: If tile Premier reads tile tunity to get the opinion of the local auth- Bill lie will see that it does not refer to en- ority, and therefore I hope that thle Mlinister gineering; it says that tile Commissioner will delay the Committee stage. I hav e shal~l decide, and I. know the departments mnuch pleasure in supporting- the second js well as does the premier. rending. The Premier: The Northama proposal has been reported upon by a special engineer MR. LATHAM (York) [.1 amn f i ou the Eastern States. afraid I shall lie out of step with otlier 1111.111 Mr. LATHAM: WVill it be constructed born4 onl this occasion. Personallyv I consider under- his supervision? I understand it is lci ng introrlne inoanimend that the Bill is I8 onlths or two years since the investitza- thle wrong Act. I do not think thme Health t, il was made. The estimated cost of the Department should be asked li, .1a1r out Northam scheme is £660,000. Wve should this work. draw public attention to what the schemne in The Premier: Theyv are not doing the that town is actually going to cost. We work. have been told that the ratevayers them- iMr. LATHAM1: They are going to super- selves will have the opportunity to express vise it. It requires all engineer to supervise their viewvs onl the questioii, hut how many this wvork. The better plan would have been many people Work out exactly what thle cost to introduce what mnight bare been termed is likely to be to themselves, and further a country sewerage Bill, and if it passed. Whether ,they are able to meet the cost. it could have been administered by thle Pub- There is not only the capital cost of con- lic Works Departmuent. Then the local auth- struction, butl thle cost of house Connections, orities could have been permitted to become and there will be additional water that will the bodies to operate it. I notice that the have to be paid for. There must also bie Commissioner of Health is expected to do a puimping plant or probably twn. Aimy- all sorts of things that he is not qualified to one wvho knows anything albout Northn) is carry out. What does he know about engi- aware that statements are published about neering? Unless there is some co-ordina- floods in that town at certain periods of the tion between the Works Department and the year. There are nilnny thingzs to he taken Health Department, I am afraid we are into consideration. We here are concerned looking for failure from the beginning. All because the Government have been asked to the Bill will do wvill be to allow the local guarantee tile £60,000. Further, there are anlirities to instal sewerage systems for lte various rates to lie added and in the their towns. aggregate the cost is hound to be fairly The Premier : T herv cannot do that wvill]- high. I find from the latest statistical year on t ain amendlmnent of the Health Act. book that thle population of Northam is Mr. rATHAIM: Ye-4 They could do it 4,874 and that there are in the town 956 just as thme metropolitan area is doing it dwellings. Albany will proimlily requirme to under a sepainrate Act. T should like the instal a sewerage system if thle Bill goes country towns to have similar leg-islation, and through. This town has a population of with thie app roval of thle G overnor in Coun - :3,919 and 1,033 dwellings, actually more cil, tile local bodies Wvould he iii mIlthlori ties dwellings than Northam and nearly .1,000 in eotol. fewer p~eople. I ani afraid there is 110 in, [23 Xo0VF3rnnnc, l9-33.j 208908 mediate chance of Katannine carrying the Tho Premier: If you establish deep new systemi beause additional water will sewerago, you nuut have it under the he required. The Grovernment would hie proper auithority'. well advised to allowv tine proposals to mature Mr. LATHRAM: But the Health Depart- a little longer. ment ave not the right department for the The Premier: Thne Bill does not commit -work. US. The Premier: I do not think they are. M1r. LATHAM: But the power is thero. Mr. LATHAf: That is all right. We I expected the Minister when introducing inight. well ask the Minister for Health to in a Bill so that any local the Bill, to tell its how much mtoney would hring general authority might pult in a sewerage system he saved. Probably there will bie a sav-in, but of rourse. we are aware that the instal,- if0 they desire it, of course after consulta- tinwith the Works Department.I mcn lation of sucih a s'ystem will tend to healthier ecrned that the Commissioner of Public tonlditjollr'. Water will have to he lakemi Health should be asked to say whether or fromt the pipe line and we must not forget not we should do these things. On a pre- that the demand for water from Mundar- v'ious occasion, when a lot of septic tank~s ing is becoming greater as the goldfleldk were being constructed under the latest areaq are being huilt uip. It ip the No. I amiendmnent of the Health Act, I was most pumnpincg, station that wvill suppl ' the watpr careful that none of the local authorities- that -Ncrtbamn will requiire. The No rtham the South Perth Road Board had a plan people have not been consulted about this for putting in a large number of septic proposal. Anyway I should have preferred tanks-should do anything of the sort with- the Minister for Works to introduce the out consulting the Works Depatrtment and Bill in which there should have been pro- the Metropolitan Water Supply Deparit. vision to enable local bodies outside the meat, for it might mean increasing the metropolitan area, or on the iringe of the water pipe system. At Nortliam it may metropolitan area--those not likely to be he found that it will necessitate relaying served by the city sewerage system-to in- quite a lot of the pipe system. We have stal sewerage system for themselves. just extended the water supply scheme for Geraldton, and it wvill become a. serious miat- Sitting sumspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m.. ter if the local authority at Geraldton conic back on the Government to increase that Mr. LIAT RAM: If we were to pass the water supply. Of course it wifl be all right ne-essar 'y legislation and it was put under at Northam, where the goldields water the control of the right authority, it would supply main runs through the town, but at permit manly bodies outside the inetropoli- Geraldtou, where they have a local catch- taic area, and some within it, to put in ment, it might mean great expense to the Sewerage systemns where required. One Government. The Minister for Railways clause of the Bill provides that the health who represents Geraldton, said the pipes authorities may formulate a scheme and there were being re-laid. That might be be- then get the approval of the Government; cause it is seen that more water will he re- and it is prescribed that the local authority quired for the septic tank system. Howi- shall forward such general plan to the Com- ever, the last department to control these missioner of Public Health, who shall exa- schemes is the Public Wealth Department. miue the sanme and may avail himself of the The Premier: The Public Health Depart- assistance of any of the Government depart- ment should only come in as or when such meats. or their officers in the examination, a scheme affects public health. and shalt aftenrwards report to the Minister Mr. LATHAM: Quite so. for Health. Not only is it a question of The Premier: It would bo absurd for sewerage, but under the Bill we are to set them to have anything to say about the con- up another authority for drainage. The struction. Government do a certain amount of drain- M1r. LA TRAM: Clause 12 provides that age, and so do the road boards and munici- the local authority concerned shall, if re- palities, and now we are to have the health quired by the Commissioner. furnish details authorities doing a certain amount. of the proposed works, wvith the levels 2090 [ASSEMBLY.] thereof, and details of all proposed inter- filter beds1 ; olli ~wise they uimld not have I lie ferences with any street, road, bridge, cul- for in thin two miles of the town. vert or permanent structure. Mr. L2ATHJAM: Unless they do treat thle The Premier: That may be necessary from sewage, they cannot use that land for a health point of view. dairying, whereas if the sewage be pro- Air. LATHAM: I do not see that it could perly treated, the hind will hove a value be. All the Commissioner is concerned with for dafirying purposes. I wvill not oppose is tl'e outlet, to see that the public health iiw Ilill. but I suggest to the Premier, in is not endangered. thne absencve of the Mtinister for Health, The Premier: But the local authority that he withdraw the Bill alL( ask the oight get out a plan that would affect the VorIks 1Je1 artment to putl uip a compre- Imlllie health. llevisiic pmeasure dealing with the whole quiestion. We may have the goldfields Mr. F. C. L. Smith: The Commissioner wlanti ng to come in. could' get the assistance of another depart- (I-. F'. C. L,. Sini th: They do want to ment. ,"Dle ilt. Air. tATHAME: It is not easy to get de- Air. I " T I-lAAM: Te, goilfields are better rartnient to work inl with each other. The P.Ititled to a system than is Northarn. Publ ic Ilealth Dlepartmnent will be setting The Premier: This is not for Northam upl anl engineering branch. Ialone. The Premier: Anything of anl engineering Mli I- LAXTH~AM : [ know, hbr the wl~ole character wvould be quite outside the sphere thing is tinder the wrong authority. Who of health activities, and would necessarily is to ehvck, r lie work of that engineer who be referred to the Works Department. came ovyer fromt the Eastern States? He Air. LATHAM: It seems to tile wrong mavben highly qualified engineer, but that the Health Dlepartment should have is vork ought to be checked. anything to do with the origin of the The Premier; I would not dreaul of scheme. griving a guarantee until satisfied on all The Premier: But it is not possible to do these points. it at all without an amiendment of the Mr. LATHIAM: Well, let the Works De- Health Act. partmntt Iaie control. VOU flay Aind the Art. LATII1AAI : I think it is. Just as Ilealthi Department setting uip an engin- we hame thle 'NIetopolitanl Water Supply eering branch for sewerage systems alone. Sewerage and Drainage Act, so we- ouight The Premier: They are at very modest to have a sewerage Act for the local auth- department, with no ambitiou, in that on ties and penn it them to form themselves way. into sewerage l)oards, always keeping them Mr. LATHAM: I do not know that. hut linked up with the Works Department, I knowi they us the Works Department which have a knowledge of what quantity when they have to report onl buildings for of water is available, and have the pipes public purposes, and I warn the House and necessary plant to provide a water that the Bill will afford opportunity for a supply. I hope before Northam adopts ~onsiderable enlargement of the Public this scemne the local authority will give Hfealth Department. some consideration to the interests of the The Premier! We have enough engineer- ratepayers in point of thle cost of the ing branches as it is. scme. Ini a western town in Newv South .Mr. [LATHAM: . agree that the Bill is Wales they have at system similar to the wanted, but we should transfer it to the one ini Perth iwith thne filters on Bu rs wood people who can control it and can give Island. The same complaint has been made advice to the Government there a t;,. ee made litre. I lowever, I The Premier: Pass the second reading understand 1hat at Noirthain there ik to he and I will examine all the points yout have a1qeleraite larml. som'w twot miles out of the raised b)efore we go into Conunittee. I own. Anyone ivho has been to Werribee If r. LATHLAMf: Tf the second reading is wvill know thiat that form is a ver , long waty cairried, wye may make a mistake that we front I he vity, nhotwithistanding" whichl Voln- s;hall regret. plaint, a ImefrequenCItly' heard. The Premier: You do not know the the Premier. I should think that at Minister for Health; I should get into Xorthlinlie crdilwae will go through trouble if I made promises in his absence. [23 NOVEMBER, 1933.] 2091

Mr. LAkTHAM: I am not going to op- Lna mnay take a taxi believing it to be pose the second reading, but 1 do really licensed, but it miay not be licensed, and he think a mistake is being made. may be guilty of all offence. The wording Question put and passed. of the clause is entirely un-Brifish. The -MINISTER FOR RIL1AYR: Bill read a second time. There is at class of agent who is always try- ing- to secure passeng-ers for people who are BILL-STATE TRANSPORT obliged to go to some distant town, and wish to eat (Iowa expenses by 00-ORDINATION. taking one or two persons who will contribute toward the cost Ill 6omniltee. of tile trip. The owners of these cars may Itesunied front, the previous day; not lie licensed to carry passengers, and yet thle%- tire doing, Sleean ini thle Chair, tile Minmister for so on these occasions. Railways tin charge of the Bill. 1{on. Y. Keenan: But this clause covers inocentt peisons as well. Clause 14-Fees for licenses: The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: 1t Ar. LATHAAM: Last night the Minister covers any person wvho sends or rauses to saiid he was going to have anl amendment to be sent any passengers Or goods by a vehicle this clause drafted. that is supposed to he licenised far that Thle PREMIER: I nuov- purp~ose, but is not licensed. Mfembers may be sure that the law% would he i nterp retedl That further consideration of the clause be 'in at reiisonahie manner, andi would not postponed. cause hardship in tile case of innocent per- Motion jput and passed. s0ils. If a mail wants to nse his car for his ow,, Clause l5-'assengers or goods not to be fanmily or his friends lie (-an do so, but sent by unlicensed vehicles. it is imei that people were prevented fromt carryinga for gain pasenrs the% tiare Mr. LATHAII : I shall vote against this not licensed to carry. clause. It will include any person whol Thle Premier: And it is nlot fair to other owns it mnotor ear or a motor truck, and people who1 do pay their license fee. gives anyone a lift aloing the road. I hardly Mr. Latham: Why not redraft the clues, think the 'Minister desires that the clause to specify those people? should he so all-embracing. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: A The Premnier-: If wye do not have some- Bill is generally drafted to cover every- thing like that, we shall be opening the thing des;ired in a general way without door to passenger-carrying without the pay- going to(i much into detail. This clause has nient of any license fees. been framed with that object in view. Mr. LATHAM: I do not wind a reason- As regards the niatter of draftsmniaship, in able safeguard being imposed, but I object nearly- all Acts of Parliament there appears to the clause ats it is now worded. a good deal of what to the laymnan seems The Minister for Railways: People arc redundanut verbiage, bitt wvhat is, in fact, constantly advertising that they are going necessary for the effective adininistratioii of to some distant town, and would be glad tile measure. If a silly Person brought an to have two or three persons as passengers utterly, trivial ease before a court, he would in order to cut down exp~enses. probably lie mulct in costs. This measure, Mr. LATHAMH: This is one of the worst like other- measures, will be adminislered rea- features of the New South Wales Act. In sonably. The clause should pass its printed. that State the railways have got into an Mr. ItODOREDA: After the Mfinister's even worse financial position than they occu- explanation the clause should be supported pied before this protective legislation was wbole-heartedly. It refers to agents who passed. seek out passengers and goods to be tar- Honl. N. KEENAN: This clause appears ried, so to speak, under the lap. The clause to east upon the individual, who sends goods might well be made more drastic. so as to by an unlicensed vehicle, the onus of know- include thle person who does the ConVcvinlf ing whether that vehicle is licensed or not. or transport, to the detriment of the lic~ens~e There is an American touch about it. It holder. Such a person should be penialised. puts people upon the "hot spot" and then The Minister for Railways: The mail who waits to see what will happen to them. A4 does the conveying first offers or agrees to [ASSEMBLY.]

convey, and therefore is included in the ioa(1 cannot, uidei the liause, event pick up) i1 clause, inan carryingr his bilank-ets along thle road. Mir. ROI1)OREDA: I refer to the agent Many of the men who would be picked for the man who does the work with the ear. -iip coulld not afford to pay Is., for the ride. The Miinister for Railways: 1 think thle Knowing that the Committee bad passed a clause covers his ease. claulse such as this, I would not dare to Mr, RODOREDA: Very well. take the risk ainti pick up a man on thie Mr. SA31PSON: The Minister might road. agree to the addition of some such words The Ibserfor Railways: Voni would as "unless it is shown that the service is per- not dare to do a lot of things. forrmed without fee or reward." Surely thle Mr. LiATHAM: What is the use of dis- lqnglish language is4not so pour a thing that curssing the Bill? We might just as well the clause cannot be made to express what stop and let it go to another place and is desired. t1 happen to know what oceu1s let them deal with it there. with vehicles not licensed] for the carriage T[le Premier: W'hy depend upon ainothier of passengers. The vlause includes the place V driver of a tar who merely gives a friendly Mr. LATHAM: We know that we eon lift along the road. That should not be an do nothing here. offence. .Mr. Moloney: You have done very well Clause put, and a division taken with the so far. following result:- '[he Minister for Railways: We accepted

Ayes . . . .. 20 a lot of amendments last night. Noes ...... 16 Mr. LATHAAM: We should amiend the clause so that it will definilely provide Majority for "4 that it shall apply only if a inan accepted payment for the conveyance of passengers. AVIS The Minister for Employment: .1] ow 71r. Clothier bir. Nolsent 1Er, Radjoredit P0111( that be proved? Sir. Collier I.. M 'mr. Cross Mr. V. Q.- X.Jr. lATIAAM: It you canl prove One Mr. Hegn ey M r. Tonkin Mr, Kenneal M1r. Troy thing, you enn prove another. The Goy- M r, McCaIlum1 NJr. Wansbrouigi Mr. ilarshtall Mr. Wilcoeck emninent coild not have men going round NJir. Millington 7,Jr. Wise I lie country policing- such a provision a; Mr. MaloneY NJr, WIlhets Mr. Needham2 Si r, \ilson - . this. (Teller.,P T[le Premier: You know it would be NOza impossible to prove that a ioan accepted Mr. Brockmanl *Mr. Patrick pinlicnt. Mr, Fergun Mtr. Piesse IMr. Oriffitbe M r. Sampson T"he Mlinister for Railways: rhe man Mr. Keenlan Msr. Seward Mr. Lathamn Mtr. Stubbs weu1l SaY, "'IDon 't Mention any thing ,,r. McDonaId Mr. Warmer about this,'' find that would be the end Mr. MeLarty 'Mr. Welsh Mr. North Mr. Doliey Tlr. of it. Mr. LAT HAM: Arc we passing clauses 1lke this just for fun? We know what is As. NosE. done to-day. People are stoppeld on the Mr. Coverlet Mr. Welsh Mr. J. M.' Smith road, quite legitimately, by inspectors, in Mr. Lamibert Mr. J, H4. Smith Mr. Mdilington Mr. Brockman the course of their duty. It will be pretty Mr. Mun*ie Mr M ann hard if a man cannot pick tip a chap ivho Keenani Mir. Marshall Mr. is walking along the road withl his swag, Clause thus passed. just because of a clause like this. Clause Ill--agreed to. Mr. F. C. L. Smith:- Do the insurance comipanies; allow people to pick up passen- Clause 17-Commercial goods vehicles not gerstI to be used for passengers: Mr. ]LATHAM: They do not stop them Mr. LATHAM:. This is a harsh clause, from doing so, but should a man give an- imposing- a penalty of £20. Moreover, it other a lift in his ear, and through negli- is a provision which cannot be policed. A gence, cause him to sustain injuries, he is driver returning empty after delivering a liable for damages. [23 NOVEMBER, 1933.] 209309

-1 r. Wise: A mail will have a job to The Minister for Employment: There is carry his wife end famnily on his vehicle the usual amount of truth in the Leader of if the clause is agreed to. thme Opposition's statement. Mr. LATHAM: 0f course. and he wvill The MiNISTER FOR RAILWAYS: not be able to carry a parcel for his bra.- Apparently, hecause the Leader of the Op- ther.tw as for such reasons that I position did not get his way regarding the wanted the Bill to be referred to a select select committee, which would have killed comlmittee, which would have saved a lot the Bill for the time being- of argument. Mr. Latham: A select committee has never The Premier: Bitt thle .hou1se refused to killed a Bill. (to that. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I have been a member of this House munch MIr. [2ATIAM3: And the House -was un- reasonable. Inmezr than the ]leader of the Opposition, TIhe Premier: You cannot reflect upon adI know that Bills have not been killed the House, in that way, but murdered! Mr. Latham: I would not have suggested M1%r.LATHAM1: I am not; I do say mem- anything of the sort. bers were wrong. The Premnier: All the transp~ort interests -he Minister for Employment: All the wanted the Bill to go to a select committee members were out of step except you. for no other purpose than to kill it. I know Mlr. LATI-AM: If the M1inister, who that much. knows everything, desires to say so, he is Mr. Cross: Outside influences!I welcomne to do so. There is something The MI,1NISTER, FOR RAILWAYS: The the Minister does not know regarding Leader of the Opposition was absolutely un- what lhe has been doing this evening. He warranted in his statement. I told the knows now, and he knows that what was Ufousc I would aecept any reasonable amend- done was wrong-. mnent that would not affect the principle, and The CHIAIRMAN: Order! There is that we would give every such amtenidment nothing in the clause about what the Min- reasonable consideration. isrer has been doing. Mr. Lathain: Will you give reasonable Mfr. LATH.AM: I hope the 'Minister will consideration to my suggestion now? give consideration to the point I have The MI1NISTER FOR RAILWAYS: raised. I have not been able to draft an Although the BUl was introduced a week iamendnent that would meet the desires ago, the Leader of the Opposition said hie of the Minister. I want to assist him to had not had timec to draft an amendment protect the person "'ho is licensed. on a comparatively simple issue such as that The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: T under discussion. ant very surprised at the attitude of the 11r. Latham: I could have drafted one, Leader of the Opposition, especially at but not one acceptable to you. his suggestion that it is useless discussing The 211INISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Thle the Bill, lie has gone off the deep end lion, member knows that there is the Crown wvith a vengeance. He accused me of not Law Department, and all he had to do was showing any consideration, and yet, for to tell the officials what he wanted and the three or four hours- last night, we dis- amendment would have been drafted for cussed the Bill and amendment after him. He has a secretary and he could have amendmnent wtas accepted by the Govern- sent him to have the amendment drafted. ment. Now when we object to a small Mir. La thorn: It is very simple! amendment that may be foolish, the ILeader The MINI STER FOR RAILWAYS: The of the Opposition says that they had Leader of the Opposition has had experi- better leave the Bill to the Upper House ence, and when he makes that statement. I and let them put the boots in. know he means it literally, not sarcastically. Mr. Latham: I do not think you should Mr. Latham: It know it is not simple. soy anything about the Government's The MINWISTER FOR RAILWAYS: attitude. You did not accept one amend- Well, I doe not know! We have the Crown ment. Law Department amnd a Parliamentary The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Get Draftsman for the convenience of members, hold of "Votes and Proceedings"! so that they can draft amendments in eon- [AS SEMBLY]

forinity with Parliamentary procedure and things that we allowed the Leader of the practice, and yet the Leader of the Opposi- Opposition to do in obstructing the passage tion says he could not do it!1 His attitude of the Bill, is entirely unreasonable. It 'appears to me MHr. Lathama: There was no obstruction at that there is no desire for the Bill to be all. passed, that things are to he allowed to drift The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: We onl and continue in the same old way. If should know exactly where we stand regard- the Bill he not passed, and some co-ordina- ing thle Principle. We desire co-ordination tion of transport achieved, I am afraid the and regulation. State will be in Queer-street. Mr. Lathanm: And prohibition. My-~rLatham: You are not warranted in The M1INISTER FOR RAILWAYS: saying that. We dlid not opposed the second There is nothing, in the Bill regarding pro- r-eading' liihitioal. The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Mr. Latham: This clause means prohibi- The Leader of thle Opposition has made all tion. sorts of, unreasonable statemjents, and has The MINISTER FOR, RAILWAYS: accused ine and the Government of being The Bill suggests prohibition only in respect unreasonable. Candidly and frankly, with- of things that are wrong. It will prevent out anly equivocation, I say thle Government comlpetition that is not legitimate. On the wish rue Bill to be passed, because they arc other hand, the Leader of dhe Opposition anxious to secure co-ordination. in connee- wanltsto whittle the provisions away until tion with transport facilities. We are the Bill will lwruine useless. He is not ra- anxiouS to give proeetti to the railways, soIlaIble. but~we are not desirous of preventing others IMr. (lRtIFFITHS: The Minister has not croln operatinig their surv-ices. We desire heen quite fair in his statement. We are reasonable co-ordination and regulation. We just as anxious as hie is to pass the Bill, and want to Jprotect those engaged legitimately I cannot understand why he should have inl various transport services from unreason- worked himself up into such a rage. able competition. We should know -where Mr. Tonkin: Speak up! we stand. is the Bill to be passed, or is it Mr Marshall: Like a little mail. to bie dropped altogether? Aeeordia'g to the M1-r.Lathain: You shut up! vote on the second reading, mienibers agreed The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. to the principle and yet onl nearly every member had better proceed. ciluse, Opposition members are critical and Mr. GRIFFITHS8: Merely because we want to mnove amendments. Surely the Bill suggest thne inclusion of a few words, the is not all had. Opposition mlembers are not Minister has protested against any infringe- prepared to support any of it, apparently. mnent of priiieiple. All we ask is that if a Mr. Latham: We have sapported a lot man gives another a lift along the road, he of it. shall not lie liable to prosecution. If he re- The MiNISTER FOR RAILWAYS: ceived payment, it would be a different mat- There was a greater need for a Transport ter. bill when the Leader of the Opposition was The Minister for Railways: The law is a Minister because the railways had a deficit administered reasonably here. of between £200,000 and £300,000, princi- 'Ar. GRIIFFITHS: We desire reasonable pally due to unfair competition. protection to be provided for thle railways. Air. Lathamn: You know that is not right. We realise the gravity of the existing posi- It was because we lost the timber trade. tion, and we want to see this co-ordination The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: brought about. When I left office as Minister for Railways IMKr.NEEDHAM: The clause places on four years ago, all preparations had been the owner of the vehicle all the responsi- made thea to carry nut the necessary in- bility for any contravention of its provi- quiries with a view to introducing a Bill cam- sions, while the driver of the vehicle escapes. bodying similar principles. The owner may be miles away from the spot The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think we where the driver picks up a man to givec are getting away from the clause. him a lift, notwithstanding which it is the The MIKISTER FOR RAILWAYS: owner, not the driver, who is penalised. Yes, and f rom the Bill and from lots of Surely when the driver commits an offence (23 NOVEMBER, 1933.] 292095 ir is he who should be liable to the penalty, railwaya! I sugcgest to the Minister thjat or at the very least he should be jointly ho mighlt consider including certain words punished with the owner. I suggest the in line 2 of the clause. driver should be included in any penalty. Mr. Marshall: That cannot he done. You Mr. 2tcJO-NALD: In a number of eases cannot go back beyond the amendment. the claube might prove to be harsh. Under Mr. TONKIN: I suggest the amendment it, in the event of a bush fire, the farmer requires some extra words. It should be could not go out ainl collect fire-fighters; made to read "the person so carried is car- Could 1i0t go around and pick up, say, any ried iji a ease of special emergency." Men working onl the road. 'Mr. McDONALD: I agree that these The Premier: Do you imagine that any- words should be added body would prosecute in a ease like that? to the amendment, and would like to have them incorporated ,Nfr. McDONALD: It is not sufficient, to in] it. say that there shall be no prosecutions; the The CHAIRM AN: The amendment will point is the mnan is inade guilty of an lie altered accordingly. offenee. Thle Premier: Our Criminal Code is full Amnendment put and passed; the clause of clauses that are never brought into action. ;is: amiended agreed to. Mr. McDONALD: But in every instance Clauses 18-23-agreed to. there is some guilt involved. These cases 2 are creating new off ences not previously Clause 4-Power to grant, etc., applies.- contemplated. Taking up a man on the tions. road, going to hell) a neighbour with a bush Mr. LATHAM: I move anl amendment- fire, taking a sick man to hospital-aill these things, commendable acts in the past, are That in the first paragraph thme words "final anid without appeal'' be struck out, and ''sub- by the Bill made offenees against the law. jeet to appeal to a magistrate"' he inserted 1 do not think that people by doing inno- in lieu. cent acts should be rendered liable to be stigmatisad as offenders against the law. 1 If a person has a grievance because of the move an amendment- action of the hoard with regard to his appli- cation for a license he should be allowed That after sub-paragraph (Hi) of paragraph. to (1) there be inserted "C(iii) in a case of appeal againist their decision to a magis- special emergency." trate. Ti that he agreed top it will not be an The MtINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: A offence if a person is carried in a commer- magistrate is not likely to be infallible, any vial vehicle in a special emergency. more than the hoard would be. Because The MINISTER1 FOR RAILWAYS:I some applicants mnay think that the major- particularly drew the attention of the ity of the members of the board are wrong draftsmank to this, and asked himi to pro- in their decision, the hon. member wants v'ide that, even if the driver received a that person to be given the right to go be- reward, hie should not be prosecuted. I fore a magistrate and have that decision cited to him an accident at Gingin in which upset. 1 cannot agree to the amendment. a man broke his leg at 9 o'clock at night, Mr. 'MOLOYCEV: I in surprised that the and a friend in town, having been rung upj Leader of the Opposition should have moved by telephone, went to Gingin and brought .iuch anl amendment. This would mean that the man down to hospital. I told the drafts- a inagistrate could upset the decision of the own we did not want such an action to be board. I would remind the hon. member made an offence. Because of that, the that he has departed from the attitude he drafhmnan inserted the proviso to Clause 1.9. took up earlier in the debate, when he said Mr. Lathanm: But there is a differentia- he wanted to preserve the authority of the tion between vehicles there. board. The MI1NISTER FOR RAILWAYS: At all events, I have no objection to the amend- Mr. tAT HAM: The hon. member is try- ment if the hon. member thinks the proviso ing to draw a red herring across the trail. to Clause 13 is not sufficient. When I asked that the board should be Mr. PIESSE: Some restriction is neces- gpiven additional power, it was to enable sary against passengers being- carried by them to make further investigations if re- commercial vehicles in competition with our quired. In the case under review a man [77] 2096 2890[ASSEMBLY.]

"nay be deprived of his livelihood as a re- powers. Any bus owner or other person sult of the decision of the board, and should applying for a license, if he had a good be entitled to appeal against that decision case, would get a much better deal from before a magistrate. Our magistrates have a board of three than from a mnagistrate. shown that they are quite competent to dis- Amendment putt, and a division takeni charge their duties. with the following result:- The Minister for Works: What would a Ayes -12 magistrate know about matters relating to Noes 21 transport? Mr. LATHAM : This is a question not of MNiajority against 9 transport but of the fitness of a person to receive a hecense. There would be no appeal AYES. unless the applicant had a good ease. ISir. Ferguson Mr. Patrick Mr. Oriffiths Mr. Pics. The Premier: There is far mnore than Mr. Latham Mr. Sampson Mr, McDonald Mr, Seward that in it. What does a magistrate know Mir. McLarty MIr. Stubbs about the necessity for a particular service, Mr. North Air, Doney (Truer.) etc'I Mr. LATHAM: The board would be rep- Noss Mr. Clothier Mr. Rodoreds resented in the ease that was heard by the Mr. Collier M~r. F. C. L. Smith magistrate. They would not allow an appli- Mr. Cross Mr. Tonkin bir. Cunninghtam SMr. Tray cant to appeal against their decision with. Mr. Hegney Mr. wanqbrough Mir. Kenneally Mr. Warner out having their side presented. Sir, MoCalloma Mr. Wilicock The Premier: They could only engage a Mr. Moloney Sir. Wise Mr, NfeO an' Si r. Withers solicitor, who would know no more than the Mr. Nulsen Mr. Wilson mazistrate. 'Air. Raphael (Teller.) The Minister for Railways: They7 would PM ES. AYE~S, Foss. not pursue a man to the last ditch, and they Mr. Welsh Mr. Covrner could be termed vindictive if they engaged a Mr. J. M. Simith Miss Holman Mr, J. H. Sith Mr. Lamnbert solicitor to appear on their behalf. Mr. Brockman Mr, Millington Mr. LATHAM: There Mr. T. 1. Mann Mr. Monele are always two Mr, Keenan. Sir. Marshall parties to a case, the aggrieved person and thtus negatived. the defendant. In a case like this the inag- A mendmient istrate would probably invite the represen- Mr. RODOREDA: What bearing on this tative of the board to appear in order that clause has ''Section 8'' mentioned at the he might hear the facts from the other side. beginning of the second paragraph 7 There Mr. Moloney: You would place the board appears; to be a misprint. in a pillory. TihJe MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Mr. LATHAM: That interjection could T]his clause was taken holus bolus fromn the apply to any kind of appeal from any Traffic Act, and .1"think tile reference is court. [o Section 8 of that Act. There appears The Minister for Railways: The board to be a mistake. I move an amendment- would refuse to renew a license only for a That the words ''Withiout limiting the good and sufficient reason. powers of the board under iSeetien 8,'' in line.% Mr. LATHAM: Sometimes the authori- .5 and 6, be struck out. ties are officious in matters of this kind, and Amendment put and passed. it is difficult to get anything out of them. Mr. NORTHl: The second paragraph ci The board would be more considerate in the clause has the effect of overriding all dealing with these questions if they knew existing regulations of the. Traffic Act, an appeal could be made against their de- which have been fought over for years. cisions. Regulation 193 under the Traffic Act de- The Premier: Is there any right of ap- finitely states where the various bases can peal against the decisions of the Milk g-o and where they cannot go, where then' Board, which possess very great powers? can pick up and where they cannot pick Air. LATHAM: I remember the Pre- up. It would he better to let the existing mier, when in Opposition, putting uip _a buS regulations apply, and give the pro- strong ease against boards with autocratic posed board power, under the regulations [23 Nov ER, 1933.] 2097 clause of the Bill, to promulgate new re- a period of years, but wvill deal with those gulations. This would moreover imply that that have been proved unsatisfactory. regulations could not be promulgated with- Mr. McDONALD: Clause 33S provides out submission to Parliament. The clause that no license shall be necessary regard- as drafted would upset all bits routes. ing commereial goods vehicles that operate The Minister for Works: Bus owners within a certain radius of the general ale now asking for alteration of routes. post office. Mr. NORTH: Yes. In fact, the clause The Minister for Railways: Those are would undo all existing regulations, which public vehicles. have been thrashed out after yea rs o f Mr. McDONALD: Should not a similar argument. I move an amendment- provision be inserted with regard to buses? That all words of the clause after the word Is there any principle involved that war- "eight,'' in line 6, be struck out, with a viewv rants differentiation with regard to buses? to the insertion of other words. Amendment put and negatived. Ale. F. C. L. SMITH: Will the board Clause, as previonsly amended, agreed have power to prescribe conditions that to- will over-ride others already prescribed under the Traffic Act? Clause 25-Conditions of omnibus Mr. Lathamn: They will, and what is licenses: done under the Bill will prevail. Mr. DONEY: Perhaps the Minister will 'The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: The explain the reason for the inclusion of subelnuse is [lie same as a provision in the pa ragiapli (d) . r ami not 41isputi ng the fact Trallie Act, and no hardship has resulted that relevant industrial awards should be in the past. observed, but surely the awards will ap- M1r. North : Will the lpresent regulations ply, irrespective of whether the paragraph continue? appears in the Bill or not. The fIN.[STER FOR RAILWAYS: Mr. LATHAM: I do not know whether Yes, if the board do not alter them. It, it is proposed to use this provision as a after a thorough investigation into the penalty against persons who apply for whole position, it appears to the board licenses. The Arbitration Court will de- that it is necessary to effect an alteration, cide whether industrial awards or agree- [her will be able to do so. meats are being observed, so why dupli- Thle M1inister for Works. As soon as the cate such a powerl board are appointed. I shall have a shear Mr. Hegney: It merely insists upon the or suggestions fromt the bus owners them- law being carried out. selves to send along. Mr. LATHAM: The Arbitration Court The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: will see to that. Anrlv tie board Shl d have the right to Mr. Needham: The court does not police consider the regulations, and if it is in awards, but issues them. the interests of all concerned to do so, Mr. LJATHAM: At any rate, a complaint they should be able to alter them. will have to be lodged and .1 do not see Mr. Latham: Is it proposed to amend w-hy this power should be duplicated. I [lie Traffic Act by repealing provisions that move an amendment- ore included in the Hill? That paragraph (d) be struck out. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No. Mr. Latham: Then there will be dual Mr. MOLONEY: I oppose the amend- control. maent. which will not do any good. The Mr. (;riffiths: Clause 56 affects that posi- paragraph is an indication that the board tion. will see that the requirements of the law The]MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: The are observed. Award rates are not always Hill goes further than the Traffic Act observed to-day, and the board will see which deals with traffic matters alone. that they do prevail. Apparently the Under the Bill, co-ordination is aimed at, Leader of the Opposition does not under- which goes further than mere traffi stand the functions of the Arbitration control. Hence the necessity for the board Court or he would not say that the court to have the power set out. The probability police awards. is that the bonrd will not disturb regula- M~r. Lathamn: Well, the industriail magis. [ionls that have proved satisfactory over~ trates will do so. 2098 2098[ASSEMBLY.]

Air. M1OLONEY: Neither dto the indus- to see that awards and agreemnts tire being trial magistrates. That shows the lion. complied with. It is cntirilv foreign to the member's ignorance. legitinite work of the boardl and because. of M1r, Lathanm: You wrant the enforcement that I wish to have paragraph (d) struck of industrial awards and agreements by anti out. easy process. Mr. CROSS: It is important that para- 'Ar. MOLONEY: Now that the Leader of graph (d) should remain in the Bill, in the the Opposition realises the position, if he interests not onily of the eniployees bot ot is really in earnest, lie will recognise the the owners of transport services. Since the necessity for the paragraph. It will let Bill has been before the House an owner peop~le know what is expectead of theml anti of transport trucks has asked me to see the board will be asked to see that tile lawv is that prov'ision is mnade to ensure that an- observed. No one with the initerests of the other owner shall he compelled to observe eonununity at heart, would desire exploita- award conditions. He said that manl was tion or sweating conditions for tile emi- employing boys and paying them £1 a week, ployees. Should there be no Industrial award and f ood. o)perating, this wvill be -an indieiuion that The M1INISTER FORt RATI4AW &YS:- proper rates of wages must lie paid. This provision is to be found in all similar Mr. NEEDHA: Perhaps the Leader of legislation in other parts of the world. Clause thie Opposition -will give us somie proof of 47 provides a liiiitatior. of thi timne the his sincerity. He criticises paragraph (d), drivers of mnotor vehiic'es may r.amn coil- but conveniently skips over paragraphs (at), tinuouslv on duty..All such provisions arc (b) and (c), which are in the same category similar tc Board of Trade reguilations in and against which his complaint could also other aetix itica,. Without. parag-raph (d) be lodged. the hoalrd would have no control over indus- The M11inister for Employment: The qjues- trial conditions iii transport services. tion of industrial awards has become an ob- session with the Leader of the Opposition. Amendment pot and negaitived. Mr. NIEEDRAM: And that is whyv we Clause put and passed. want to call his bluff. Clause Mr. Lathamn: A little more money for the 26-Power to board to attach coil- A.W.U. and Trades Hall. ditions to licenses: Mr. NEEDHAM: WVhat the lion. -neumher Mm-. LA TRAM.: Will the 'Minister agrei' kn ows about the Trades Hall is very little. to thie striking out of the word "specified" Mr. Hegney: It would not fill an egg c.up. in paragraph (d) and the substitution The CHAIRMAN: Order! Thadt has no- therefor of the word "minxiinuni" 9 thing to do with the clause. The Mlinister for Railways: The board 'Ar. NEEDHAM: There is in existence a lies discretion in this mnatter. competent authority to see that the things ,Mr. LATHAM: Very well. Will the M1in- required in paragraphs (a), (6) and (e) are ister give its an idea of what is meant by done. The hon. member offers no objection paragraph (e) ? to them, hut he wants paragraph (d) ex- The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: In cised. some instances the board are empowered MUr, LATHAII: I am thoroughly in earn- to issue licenses at fees based on certain est about this. The board is to issue licenses. figures, and naturally thle board will want Paragraph (a) deals with the type of to be in possession of those figures, for vehicle to be used in the transport of pas- without them they will not be able to arrive sengers. Paragraph (h) p~rescribes that thle at a satisfactory basis. provisions of every Act applicable to the Mr. Latham: If we give the board that '-chicle shall be complied with, and paragraph power, they ought to be bound to secrecy. (c) provides that thle vehicles shall be in- The Minister for Railways: I have no sured. Paragraph (d) is for the enforce- objection to that if the hion. member can ment of industrial awards and agreements. put tip a satisfactory amendment. Why should the board have to interfere with Mr. LA THAM: I move an amiendment- those things? If the employees have any That after ''board,'' in line 2 of paragraph grievance, the unions will take up the ease. (e) there be inserted ''anti which shall be I object to the board being made a tribunal confidential docunients.'' (23 NOVEMBER'. 119.93.] 20990

Mr. F. C. L SMITH: I. see no reason nothing about the financial operations of why the statistics of fares collected on a companies handling aircraft in this State, bus: upon which at Certain percentage must and it mar be desirabhle that we should do be Paid by way of license fees should be of so. it confidential character. Amndment put antd negatived. The Mfinister for Railways: Whose busi- ness is it, except tbc board'? Clause put and passed. Mr. F. C. L. SMITH: it is the public's Clause 27-ag-reed to. business. Clue 28-P-riod of license. The Minister for Railways: But thle board Mr. LA TI-IA 1: 1 move an amendmteitt- are empowered to do all this on. behalf of the public. That the word ''expire'' be struck out, antd ill Mr. F. C. L. SMITH: Tihe l)ublic are 'be renlewaltle' insertedl lieu. entitled to know the earnings on any given Tlhis would make the clautse less harsh inl t'otute, that they might see whether the ser- its effect than it is now- vices rendered aire comnnisurate with the Amtendmecnt put and a divisioa taken with returns. The figurea of the 'Kalgoorlie the followiitg result: tramuways arec pu~lished. Ayes -. . .12 Mr. Latham : Bitt they have at monopoly. Noes .. - .1 Mr, F. C. L. SMITH: No, permission has been given for a hits to run front the Majority againstd 7 Kalgoorlie Ho0tel to the Crown Hotel in Bouldcr. In the metropolitan area the tak- AYES. ings of the tramnwavs and the percentage Mr. Ferguson M r. Patrikk .Mr. Griffitbs Mir. Piesse paid to the local authority are disclosed. Mr. Lathamn .Mr. Samnpson Mr. McDonald Mr. Sewar-d The earnings of. the Kalgoorlie tramways, Alr. MeLarty M.,. Sthbs not only the fores but money received for Mr. North M r. Donor (Teller.) advertisements, are subject to at 3 per cent. to the local authority. All these NonB payment Mr-. Clothier M'r. F.C. L. Smnith figures are of interest to the Public. I see M r. Collier M r. Tonkin M r. Cross Mr. Troy no reason why the returns of tite busincms 'Mr. Regney Mr. Wnrtsbrough derived front these licenses shtould not be Mr. Kenneally Mr. 'Wilicock Mr. Mr.OailumU Mr. wiltjon disclosed. Mr1%Molonpy 'Atr. Wise 11r. Needhanm M r. Withers Air. NEEDHAMN: The hoard will be ap- M r. Nolsen M1r. Raphael pointed to earry out certain public ditties. 'Mr. Rrudored:t (Teller. I Information may be required for some arbi- PAIR. tration court proceedings, or may be re- NOES. Mr. WelIsh Sr-Corerle, quired for the use of Parliament, in which '61r. J. U4. Smith She'q5Jnlmur, Mr. J. H4.Smith Mr. Lnnihert case it would become public property. We Mr. n3rockmn Mr. Millingion should be establishing at dangerous prece- Mr. J. 1. Mann M61r.Munsis M r. Masrshall dent if we carried the amendment. Mr. 1Cenam The INISTER FOR EWPLOYMENT: Amendment thus negatived. Why should we regard as confidential a Mr. YEEI)HT.\ 3: 1 move an amndlf- business that is operating against a public Inetnt- utility, that is itself obliged to publish full Tltat the following words he :trlded :-' 'udl informsttion concerning its activities" . the fee charged khtall be proportionate to the hope the amendment will not he accepted. fee charged] for- tite fil] term.'' If wue are going to foster competition l am merely tn-king- that a, pro rata. fee against the railways and tramways let us shall be charged if a license is issued ortly ensure that it is fair roinpetitior. for a portion of the financial year. These Mr. WISE: I san oposed to the amend- fees are fairly heavy, and constitute a con- meat. Later on in the Bill we shah be asked sirerable burden upion the owners of to consider the relationship of aircraft to vehicles. It is possihle already to get a transport methods, and the conditions that licetise for half the year, and I wrant to will apply to them. At present we know opien the way for ai person to pay a fee for 2100 [ASSEMBLY.] a proportion of the year less than six miles from, his mairket town, Katanning, months. could not without a special permit carry Mr. WXINSBROUG11t I oppose bill goods or stock to Katanning unless it were amndnient. At Albany there are two bus gr-ist to the maill or sheep to the show; nor prioprietor, who are running an excel lent could a farmier nine miles out from Katan- service. Between May and November they ning carry his p~roditce there. Further, do not make enough 7for bread and butter. there is danger in the word "solely" con- Now the hon. member wants to enable con- tained in paragraph (c). lpetitors to conmc in onl a sia II fee, and do THE M1INISTER, FOR HllAY~iS: them out of their trade when the traffic hias The whole question is dealIt withI in the First improved. Schedule. If wvheni that schedule is reached The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: We the lion. mnembier consi ders that the exce1)- do not want to make it possible for people tionis ire not siflicienitlv wide in the inte,-ests to cater onl.y for the creami of the traffic of cutyuser's ot trucks, lie canl move to the detriment of established interests. additions, This Bill includes matters that Mr. Tonkin: Surely thle board would not ai-e not included] ill existing" trallic legisla- agree to that. tioji. The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWVAYS: If Cla use put and passed. the board think that, say tta race time, addi- tional transport facilities might be allowed, Clause Sd-Application of Part: they would see to it that the fee charged 2I. F'ERGU[SON: ''iere aire many un- was not too low in the interests of those reasonable clauses in the Bill, but this who were already riii Iii hg the serviee. To seem's to lue the miost unfair and lopsided. (1o oitherwise wvould lie ohviously unfa ir The effect it will have upon vehicles in Mr. Needham : 1 did not suggest anything the country districts niust have been lost so ridiculous. silght of by the Minister. It provides that The INISTERi FOR, RAILWAYS: no license shalll be necessary for commier- No; and I am sure the lion, member did ci-al goods vehicles that operate within a not mean anything of the kind. The board radius of 1.5 miles from the General Pest can be relied upon to do what is fair by itll Ornece, or for those that operate solely parties, and their action should not be hlam- wvithini a radius of eight miles from the strung. place of business of the owner. in the 11'r. F. C. L~. SMITHf: The license fee is countryi districts goods are delivered far to be determined by the board, and based more thtan eight niiles from the place of on, the earnings of the vehicle. Whether h'usiiw-s and iii Bunhiiry storekeepers de- the duiration of the license be long or short, liver goods 16 niiles away. The clause if the fee is based on the earnings of the means that if. a country storekeeper de- vehicle it should 1)0a fail- propositioln. livers w-oods more than eight miles away, hie will have to take out an additional A mcndmient puat and negaitived. license, the cost of which wvill be added to Clause put and passed. the price of the goods delivered. Clauses 29, 30, 31-agreed to. Mr. Latham: And "-ho wvill police such Clause 32-Commercial goods vehicle not a provision? to operate unless licensed: Mr. FERGUSON: It will be very diffi- cult. There should be no differentiation ,\r. PIESSE: This is a most important betwecen the metropolis and the country provision. The Minister should clear upit distric. 1 nmove ain amiendment- grave doubts existing as to the need for licensing farmers' trucks as commercial That in line I of paragraph (b) '" eight' vehjicles. This clause might be read in con- be struck out anid the word ''fifteen'' inserted in lieu. junction with Clause 33, which makes ex- ceptions; from licensing. Apparently all Mr. RODOBEDA: I support the amend- farmers trucks are to be prevented from ment. Rather than penlise the country running, on any road unless the owner's districts, wve should give them an advan- paeis not less than eight miles from the tage compared with the metropolitan area. nearest centre, or unless there is exemption Al1ready' through the mail order system, big under the First Schedule. Under those COn- business concerns in the city are slowly ditions a farmier located at a siding eight strang-ling the country storekeepers. [23 Novp.NfBzn, 1933.1J0

'rho MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I NOKS haUve no objection to the amendment. Mr. Cross Mr. Enoduredo Mr. liegney .Mr. Withers Mr. PIESSE: I do not know that even .Mr. Moloney Mr. Needham the amendment wvill deal with the difficulty (Teller.) I have already drawn attention to man Amendment thus passed; the clause, as mnay have to travel 40 or 50 miles to his amended, agreed to. nmket. Clauses .34 to 37-agreed to. The Minister for Railways: You can dealt 38-Conditions of commnercial with that in the First Schedule. Clause goods vehicle license: Mr. WVISE: I want some information from the Minister regarding this clause. Mr. LATHME: This is the worst thing Wrill it mean that all goods carted fromt I have seen in any Bill. Fremnantle to Perth will be conveyed in The Preuier: No, your colleague said the vehicles not licensed under the Bill? other was the worst. Amendment put and passed. Mir. LATHAM: It is asking the board to 11r. LATHAM: I move an amendment- do the impossible. How can the board go around all over thfe country, from Sha-rk That in line 1 of paragraph (e) ''solely'' be struck out and the word tIprincipally"~ in- Bay to Esperance and out to the Sout], sorted in lieu. Australian border, to find out whether a juan driving a truck has been on duty more than As the paragraph stands, it will mean thait ive hours. I move an amendment- if a commercial goods vehicle is used for any purpose other than those mentioaed That paragraph (c) be struck out. in the First Schedule, an extra license will Amendment put, arid a division taken with have to be procured. the following result:- The Minister for Railwvays: What else Ayes -. .. .. :11 can he carry? Noes -. .. .. 19 Air. LATHAM: He may find it necessary to go into the town empty. Majority against . .. 8 The Minister for Railways: He Woold] ot lbe carrying anything at all thenu. AYES. Mr. Ferguson Mr. Pie...0 Air. LATHAM: But hie is not permitted Mir. Lathsmn Mr. Sampson Mr. Mcflonald Mr. Seward to go onl the road at all. And if lie were Air. Me La rty Mr. Stubbs carrying stores to the mines, lie would not Mr . North Mr. Doney Mr. Patrick (Teller) be permitted to carry wood to the minies. It ought to read "principally used" instead Noes. Clothier Mr, Rodoreds. Of "Solely used." We have it in the Traf- Collier MSr.F. 0. L. Smith, Cross Mr. To,,kln icl AVct. Hegney Mr. Troy Keanealy Mr. Wansbrougha Amendment put, andl a division taken with McCallum Mr. Willeock Moloney Mr. Wise5 the followings resul t: Needhami Mr. Withers Nelsen Mre.Wilsoun Aye~s 24 Raphael Noes 6 Amendment thus negatived. Majority foir 18 Clause put and passed. Clauses 39 to 42-agreed to. AYES. Mr. Clothier Mr. Raphael Clause 43-Commercial goods vehicles to hit. Collier Atr. Sampson be registered as motor vehicles: bir. Ferguson Mr. Seward Mr. K ... urally Atr. F.C. 11. Smith Ifr. LATH{AM: Is it proposed] to re-enact Mr. Latham Air. Mr. McCallum Air. SThorn Sections 10 and 10a of the Traffic Act? Mir. McDonald Ai r. Troy Mir. Mciarty Itr. Wansbrnngb The MIY\ISTER FOR RAILWAYS : If Mr. Nortb Mr. Willeack this Bill passes wve will ie-enaeit Sections 10 Fir. Noise. MrI.Wilson Mr. Patrick Mifr. Wise and 10a of the Traffic Act for six months Mr. Please Mr. (Teler. as from the 1st January, but if the Bill is [ASSEMBLY.]

tint passed thiose sections wvill lie, n-enlaeted this State reserves for landing grounds; for 12 months, and we spent no uulonev whatever on those Mr. Sam pson : What is incalit hr "pro- groun11?ds. ri'lhere is mio unfair comnpetition perly licensed"?I of aircraft with rtmilwavs, the charges of The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: A thle formner bjeing- so much higher. The Iperso ntiay be ucis:ed 1111(14.1011ne s-etiol or1( Mtinister for H-ealth, if he were here, would. tine Tiaffir Aet and iiot uindier another. lie uphold thle aircraft service, which hie de- muti he lieed under eve'rv sect ion that sires to exteiid to the North. Further, the has a heari ng~ upon hiis licenise. eipest and most useful form of defence Clausne pu11ti cilupassed. is aircraft. Mr. WVise: This provision aLpplies only Clause 44-Airc-raft not to1 operate unless South of ttie licensed: 26th parallel. .Mr. LATHAMH: But the transportation 3Nr LATiIA2: I- hope the Government of g-oods aind passeng-ers is- from hero. The realise what they are doing by the inclusion clause applies to manv aircraft coming South of aircraft in this niea~iure. Everx' nation of? that parallel. L~et uts niot make the re- is doing, what is can to encourage aircraft. grettable error of butting in on the aircraft Certain routes are: operated in this State at service. I hope the clause will be negatived. greait expense to the peopile of Austrailia. lIrninediatclv the State legislates. for aircraft The MNINSTER 1 01 RAILWAYS: and exacts fioni themn ccrttiin fees, it will The Bill is designed tn co-ordinate all he a definite instruction to the Common- formts of transport. A few Years ago mnotor wealthi Parl ia ment to with draw their sub- cars were mnot thought to be an effective sitly. competitor in transport. Let us not make The Premiier: I ami most anxious that the the Same mistake regarding aircraft. The present subsidy' should be withdrawn, be- liceiisa, fee to lie charged to tii-rraft is pur'ely cause the taxpay'ers. of Australita are heing nominal, for the pnrpose of registration. robbed for the Service thex- are getting.- Aircraft itineraries will not be affected in 'r. LATHAMI: There is no mnore efficient any degree hy this measure, Ini a few Years Service in the world tliani that operating in aircraft mnay become serious competitors in the north, and from the west to the east. transport. It is a matter of Australian public policy to encourage aircraft, and tine Tine Premier: rube subsidy is being with- board will not hamper aerial services. draw~n at the end of the contract;, that is When the overseas subsidy starts. Mr. Latham : We aire duplicating con1trol by this clause. The Commitonwealth already 11A'I'FIAM1: I know that teiiden s clllse have control. about them end of the vet ir. rfhe Premier: That is, for the oversea Time MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: We mutst have. Soine little control in the coult unt. Mr. IATJIA'M: It is not stated that licensing of aircraft. It is not anticip~ated board will take drastic action ill th~ir( will nio longer lie air subsidy for the that the service in Wester~n Australia. We have the regard. to aircraft, seeing that the cost of best trained p~ilots in the wvorld operating tranlsport by air is so heavy. our- iir routes. We provide nothing for Mr. Lathanm: Then let the aircraft alone. the air-craft. Even thle grounds are pro- The 'MINISTER TPOt RAILW\AYS: At v'ided and mnainitained hv thle Commnon wealth thle pr'Ceent juncture it 11111ynot be ncces- ove rninmet. sary to do nntcli in thle waY of regulating Thei Minlister. for RaIilwayzsP: i11Ysonic of iera ft. However, it is, an imnportanit forni them]. of transport, and the board should have Mr. LA,'THAM: 1 do not know of any powier to co-ordinate or reguIlate it inl thle that are being looked after by tine State. interests of the country. Regulation by thle The Premier: 'We bore the cost of tire- board might also liecessential in the interests pariing the ground at M1arble Bar, and are of aircraft. The hoard might feel called thinking of paying thle cost of anl all-the- upon to prtevent conipetition which would yer-run grouidat 'Wyndham. render anl air Service unp~rofitable. M.LATHAMl: Whlen I was ,Minister for M\r. Lathin: Have von consulted tile Lands, thle Commonwealth obtained from Coimonwen ith authorities about this7' L"2-Nujvlicunt. 3.20 210"'

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: tie Gov-erniment considereti the advisability of supply'-ing the nieeesary lectures through Mri. 11;. I iii et : 114) te (. ollmooowealth the University to obviate the opening of the authorities consult us about anything they College? (b) If so. what would he the cost do? to the department? 4, What expenditure is The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:. it anticipated will be incurred by the re- Not in the slightest. opening of the college? 5, Has the Uni- Mr. Latbam: Unfortunately they are the ver3itv submitted a schleme for the training superior authority. of teachers?2 6, Has the Teaichers' Union, The MNISTER FOR RAILWAYS; or any' other hodv. otficer. 01' person 4Ilnlit- Where our powers of legislation conflict ted a report Onl the reoeitof the col- with theirs, the Commonwealth are para- lege? MOUnt. and we cannot do anything regarding The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: I. to that. 6I, The whole matter of the immnediate future I olesreported. of thle Training College is now receiving the sipecial consideration of thle Giovernment, in House adjouned (it 10.53 p.pn. the light of ti the informnation received from various soiticves, huit no definite dleci- sion has vet been reached.

QUESTION-MINISTERIAL TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES. lon. E5. H. Hf. HALL asked the Chief Secretary: Having regard to the resolution carried by the Legislative Council on the 240h October last? relaitive to M1inisterial legislativ~e crouncil, travelling allowances. etc., can he indicate whenl the particuflor> will be made available iurelaqa~. ?1hI A1orembcr, 193. to niembers ! The CHEEP SECRETARY replied: To PAE prepare the desired information requires the Qmu'.lons: iunralloms. Training College .. .. 2103 3ilaisterial travelling aliowtarces...... 21013 mxamination of a very large number of Assent to Bills...... 2103 InserlnI statements: I'orestq Art Amendment Bill 2103 vouchers over each of the years mentioned Nills: Lotteries (Control) Act Amendment (No. 2), lit. 2106 Cunstltutlon ACtt Ameatinsent, Assembly's lin the resolution, and na1tur~ally takes a great message...... 2106 deal of time. When the returni has been Land, SRe...... 2106 Mine Workers' Belief Act Amkendimnt, report 2100 completed it will be presented to the House. P1ermnent Rteserve (A116-2), S2R. 2106 Aunattla Allotmlents, 2R...... 2108 leserves. 2R...... 2112 1'ire Bremade- Act Amendment, 2R., Corn. .. 2113 Y-remantle CAtyCouncil Lind' Act Amendment, ASSENT TO BILLS. 2R.. low. report .. 212-3 MNessage friont the Lieul t. -Governor received and read niotifyinog assent to the undermen- tioned Bills:- 'fle P'RES>IDEN\T look the Chair at 4.30 p.m.; and read Prayers. 1, Yuna-Dartmuoor Railway. 2, Southern Cross Southwards Railway.

QUESTION-EDUOATION, TRAINING COLLEGE. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT- FORESTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Hull. H. J1. YELIIAND a~~ked the Chief Secretary: 1, Is it thle intent ion of thle Oov- THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Ilon. J. 31. ernment to re-elmen the Claremont Training Drew-Central) 14.38] : During the course College after the Christmas vacation? 2. of my speech in reply to the debate on the (a) It 6o, will it be residential? (b) If nut second reading of the Forests Act Amend- re~identinl, what provi- ion will lie miade for nient Bill, I promised to obtain certain in- aittending emlttry teachers? 3. (a) Have formation fur nlelnber-4 I now have the in-