IN PARTNERSHIP WITH

NATIONAL LIFE STORIES

AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH SCIENCE

Harry Yeadon

Interviewed by Thomas Lean

C1379/82

1

IMPORTANT

© The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document.

Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom

+44 (0)20 7412 7404 [email protected]

Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators.

2

British Library Sound Archive National Life Stories

Interview Summary Sheet Title Page

Ref no: C1379/82

Collection title: An Oral History of British Science Interviewee’s Yeadon Title: surname:

Interviewee’s Harry Sex: Male forename:

Occupation: Civil Engineer Date and place of 28th May 1922 birth: Accrington, Lancashire Mother’s Father’s occupation: Electrical Engineer occupation:

Dates of recording, Compact flash cards used, tracks (from – to): July 30 [1-2], August 31 [3-4], October 29 [5-8], November 26 [9-10], December 19 [11- 14]. (All 2012) Location of Interviewee's home, Lytham. interview:

Name of Thomas Lean interviewer:

Type of recorder: Marantz PMD661 on secure digital

Recording format : WAV 24 bit 48 kHz

Total no. of tracks 14 Mono or stereo Stereo

Total Duration: 14:22:36 (HH:MM:SS)

Additional material:

Copyright/Clearance Sections of track 9 [between 25:19-25:25 and 1:23:27-1:23:42], : track 13 [59:53 – end of track] and track 14 [21:30 – 21:37] closed until 2032; interview otherwise open

Interviewer’s comments:

3 Harry Yeadon Page 4 C1379/82 Track 1

Track 1

I’d like to start off, if you could introduce yourself please, Harry.

My name’s Harry Yeadon. I was born and brought up in Accrington in East Lancashire, which was a town of about, I suppose, 40,000 plus, very much a – a textile town, with mills, both weaving and spinning. And the – the largest employer, the biggest employer, in the town was a firm making textile machinery. It was reputed to be the biggest organisation of its type in the world, exporting plant all over the place. My father worked for that firm. He was the electrical engineer. And I used to go into the place with him, particularly at weekends, when he used to call in, because in those days all the drive for the machinery was belt driven from a big sort of steam engine, and gradually over the years they converted to electrical power, of course, and they built their own power station, etc. So it was quite – it was quite a big setup. So having left school at the age of seventeen, which you could do in those days – I went up to university when I was seventeen. That was just when the war started. Am I alright for carrying on?

It’s good. It’s giving me a nice overview. I’m going to come back and ask some sort of specific questions.

Right. And that was at Manchester. And the – the difficulty, of course, with the war having started, one was always liable to call up at the age of – it was eighteen in those days. But if you joined the senior training corps, you were required to have a day’s training every week, in uniform, and you became a very – you became a very proficient [laughs] infantryman. There was no technical part to the SDC in those days. But I’d already joined the local defence volunteers, which was founded in 1940, when the – the risk of being invaded, if you remember, was very prevalent. And – and that became the Home Guard and the SDC was in effect a Home Guard unit and our role was supposed to be to – to go up onto the moors over – into the Pennines if there was any landing in that area, places like beyond Oldham and so on, over towards – towards Yorkshire. That never happened, of course. And then in 1942, when I graduated, we were invited to go for interviews, prospective officer material, and if

4 Harry Yeadon Page 5 C1379/82 Track 1 you were successful in those interviews, in due course you – you joined a – a pre-op unit and then a lot to [ph] officer cadet training unit, and eventually be commissioned in – in 1943, when I joined various units of different types, until I was – joined an organisation, which was involved with reinforcements, I suppose you’d call it, to Italy, because the invasion in North West Europe had already started. And of course they weren’t getting the resources in Italy, as North West Europe did.

[04:50]

And so I found myself in Italy, joining an armoured engineer regiment, which was quite unusual, ‘cause we had all these gadgets of mobile bridges and – and the like, primarily concerned with the crossing of water courses in Northern Italy. I mean, the war had – had moved north of Rome by this time. And so this was quite unusual. But it was interesting in the sense that I’d find myself – because I’d – I’d been sent on a course, dealing with communications and training operators with our units – that’s where I found myself. Because one of the things, as I’m sure you’ll appreciate, was that in – in forward areas, the enemy, the Germans, were always trying to find out where various units were. That was the whole business of strategy, I suppose. This is part of the Eighth Army, which was on the east side of the country, whereas on the west it was essentially the Americans. And we had all the allies, like New Zealanders and people like that. And so it was of considerable interest that you – in any radio communications, which the enemy could pick up, that you didn’t give away what your unit was or where you were, and so on. This was highly important, particularly with the specialist equipment that we had, which of course would have given an indication where we intended attacking, because of course at that stage we were very much on the offensive, not the defensive, until the – the war finished – or the war there finished. We finished actually on the 2nd May, whereas VE Day in this country, because of North West Europe, is always looked on as being 8th May. So we’re rather proud of the fact that we finished early [laughs]. And so that – that was the background and then, of course, soon after the hostilities finished, we handed over all this equipment and we – we became a normal sapper unit and joining the other organisations, very much involved in the replacement of – of bridges, which had been demolished as part of the – the war itself. So we spent some time on that, until I came

5 Harry Yeadon Page 6 C1379/82 Track 1

– came home. I could give you a lot of detail about what the circumstances were if you wish, because it was a bit – a bit tricky in relation to the activities of Tito, who you probably know all about.

Was that in Yugoslavia?

Because Tito – the Yugoslavs were trying to get to Trieste and take over Trieste before we got there. I don’t mean just we, I meant the Eighth Army as such. And of course our lines of communication were extended, very much so. So the New Zealanders went forward and got into Trieste and then it was a sort of sitting there looking at each other across the river [laughs] into Tito’s lot. And eventually, of course, the United Nations became involved and – a place called Pola, which you may – might mean something to you, or Pula [ph] – we found ourselves down there with the unit, which was an isolated – very much an Italian city. And of course they wanted to take over that as well as – as Trieste, so deals were made. And so they didn’t get into Trieste but they were – they got Pula [ph] and the Italians were given the opportunity of pulling out. So that was the background until I came home on release. And that was in early 1947, when the – the UK was in a bit of a mess at that time, because – a shortage of everything and severe rationing and – I remember travelling up by tube train from Calais, because we came across Europe by train, coming up from – crossing to Dover and coming up on a train up to London, with an engine driver on the train sort of saying, ‘I don’t know what you’ve come back here for [laughs]. It’s awful.’ By that time, of course, the – the King and Queen had gone off to South Africa anyway [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way.

That’s a lovely summary. I think – I think that sort of timeframe is what we should try and cover today in more depth before we go any further.

Right.

[10:55]

So what I’d like to do now is take you all the way – right back to the start.

6 Harry Yeadon Page 7 C1379/82 Track 1

Yes.

When were you born?

1922, 28th May 1922, hence the ninety years a couple of months ago.

Where?

Where? In Accrington. I’ll tell you more about Accrington if you wish.

Please.

It was essentially a textile town, as I’ve already mentioned, but it had one of the best engineering bricks [laughs] manufactured there in the country, which is interesting. But the other thing, which I found of great interest, was – and I don’t know whether this means anything to you, but the Accrington Pals – does that mean anything? – in the first war, when various towns were approached for recruiting people, and they formed Pals battalions, all joined up together. And the Accrington Pals were involved in the battle of the Somme and virtually wiped out. Now in the – I don’t know whether you watched the – the run into the Olympics the other night, but there was reference there to Accrington Pals, because it was quoting, if you remember the Suffragettes, who were mentioned in the Jarrow marches and so on, and there was a quick – a very quick reference – and I ran it back and I’ve been unable to find it, but it was mentioned in the Daily Telegraph that the Accrington Pals had been mentioned. So, you know, claim to fame, if you like. Unfortunately it was a great disaster for the town.

Was it still something that was talked about when you were young?

Oh yes. I mean, the – the very big cenotaph in the town, which is still there – I went to look at it only a few years ago, and – of course it was before my time, but I knew the names of the families that were involved. And also – and of course, in those days

7 Harry Yeadon Page 8 C1379/82 Track 1

I was in the – the Cubs and the Boy Scouts, and we went on parade on Armistice Sunday, up to the cenotaph. And this was a very big occasion because of the background to the Accrington Pals.

What would happen on that big occasion?

Well, you were paraded up to the cenotaph and various religious services, etc. And I remember them well. So it was perhaps unique in that respect.

What was the atmosphere like at those memorials?

Very saddening because there were a lot of widows, of course, left. And I had no immediate members of my family involved, though I had uncles who were gassed and – and wounded, etc. But I did know quite a few families and – but no children of my age, of course, because I was born in 1922 and of course, as you know, the war finished in 1918. So gradually over the years it – it’s still very much recognised.

[14:55]

Could you describe to me what Accrington more generally was like?

What it – was it was like?

What sort of town was it?

Well, it was, as I say, about 40,000. But it was the sort of town where, if you like, everybody knew everybody else. It was – it wasn’t big enough to be isolated. Of course it was a unit on its own because it was halfway between Burnley to the east and Blackburn to the west, both textile towns and both different processing in textile terms. And so there was always the influence of the two towns on either side. And it was the junction of two valleys, a valley coming down, the Calder Valley. Of course there’s a Calder Valley in Yorkshire, as you know, and this was the Calder Valley that came down through – from Burnley, from the east, to Accrington. And – and that

8 Harry Yeadon Page 9 C1379/82 Track 1 joined the – flowed into the Ribble, which of course is what we’ve got out here. The – where we lived was outside the town centre and the elevation was, I think, about 600 feet, and you certainly noticed the difference in terms of weather if you came in this direction. And I had an uncle – ours was very much a – a Yorkshire family, and my – my father was the one who opted out of farming, but the – the elder of this brothers, the eldest of his brothers, still farmed, sheep farming, very big acreage and a number of sheep, etc. And the – another brother, he went into business and he was involved in supplying the farming community with all sorts of things. In fact, there’s a restaurant up in the – in the valley up there, a pub restaurant, with a big sort of stove in the old kitchen, and it’s got my uncle’s name on it, cast into the [laughs] – things like that. But he retired, he had no family, and he came to live in Ansell [ph], not far away from the station where you were. And he’d no family. And eventually he – he died and was buried in the parish church just along the road there. And there’s a gravestone there with my name on it because I was named after him, Harry Yeadon [laughs]. So I’ve already got a place there. So that’s the background to the family. The other interesting thing, because it was my – I had a maiden aunt, who lived in a village just outside a place called Settle, if that means anything to you. You may have heard of the Settle to Carlisle railway, for example. And she was a teacher and the school where she taught was right up on the – on the top of the fells, which took in children from outlying farms into the school there. And she used to go up there on – on the Friday, walk up there, which was about a five mile walk on – sorry, on a Monday morning, and come back down on – on a Friday, and my grandmother still lived in the village. Anyway, so there’s a – there are gravestones in the churchyard there with Yeadon on. But I can even take you back further than that, because – I don’t know whether Clapham means anything to you, and I don’t mean Clapham in London, a village called Clapham, which is near Ingleton, going north west from – from Settle. And the – my father was born there on a farm and the church in the – in the village was – goes way, way back. I’m not saying it was the original structure, but when we were children we used to be taken out there to look at a plaque on the wall, which had the vicars of the parish way back. And the vicar of the parish in 1500 and something, was Thomas Yenn [ph]. Because, as you know, they often changed the spelling of names, didn’t they, over the years. So [laughs] – so that’s my origins, very

9 Harry Yeadon Page 10 C1379/82 Track 1 much a Yorkshire origin. My father was a Yorkshireman. My mother was born in Cheshire. So very much got a north west background.

[20:15]

Thank you. That’s given me a really good idea of where you come from [both laugh].

Yes.

What was your father’s name?

John.

Could you describe him to me?

Describe him? Well, my wife says often that I’m rather like my father in some respects. But very hard working man and, er, as I say we used to go in – in the works, he used to take me in there at weekends. And in 19 – I remember it was, 1937, it must have been, at least, 1938, when the firm moved over to making munitions, even in those days, because the fact that the – they’d done so well in selling machinery to places like India particularly, and of course they, you know, they were making their own textiles out there. You know, there was a decline in even the manufacturing of the machinery. And that’s why they moved over to munitions. And at the same time Bristol Aircraft, they started to build an engine factory in – just outside Accrington. And for those reasons it became very heavily defended. In fact I reckon that it must have been the most heavily defended town of its size during the war. The fact that we had antiaircraft guns, we had a balloon barrage, we had – and worst of all, we had a smokescreen. And depending on the weather conditions – and the pioneer corps were in the town, and at most street corners there was a stone, a bit like a paraffin stone, and they used to light these things, and the town was absolutely full of smoke. You couldn’t have your bedroom windows open. And it was quite incredible that a town that size should have that sort of protection. And quite, I think, by accident, we got some of the first bombing of the – of the war, of planes – planes coming over and

10 Harry Yeadon Page 11 C1379/82 Track 1 heading for Liverpool particularly, and I think perhaps unloading the bombs if they didn’t get as far as Liverpool, that sort of thing. It wasn’t a severe attack but it was quite unique that we got this. Of course we had air raid shelters and goodness knows what at home. So it was – it was a bit unusual [laughs].

Who did your father work for?

A firm called Howard and Bullough, Howard H-O-W-A-R-D, and Bullough was B-U- L-L-O-U-G-H, Howard and Bullough. And in fact Sir George Bullough, he – very keen on the west coast of Scotland and – good heavens, I’ve forgotten which island it is, off the west coast of Scotland. He – he bought this island, I think, and he built a – a place up there. So, you know, it was a very prosperous industry. And of course I didn’t – I didn’t know any – he’d died off, I think, before my time. But it was quite unique in the scale. Anyway.

What did your father do there?

He was an electrical engineer and, as I say, he was very much involved with the – the changeover from belt drives from a big steam engine to electric power, because it was a very big complex and they – they had these shafts with leather banding transmitting the energies, like the whole place. So anyway, that’s the background.

What sort of chap was your father?

Quiet man. My mother was the – the one who was very much the extrovert, if you like. He tended to be the introvert. But I had two sisters, both older than – older than myself, both of whom have died over the years, who were very good athletes, by the way, brilliant athletes. If the war hadn’t started, I reckon they – they would have done things in terms of national – and so on. They were quite unique. In fact, at the local school, even though there was about eighteen months between them, they tied for the Victor Ladorum [ph] on points. One of them would win some race or other and the other would … [Laughs] Quite unique in that sense.

11 Harry Yeadon Page 12 C1379/82 Track 1

What were their names?

Names? Well, the elder one was Dorothy Elizabeth and the younger one was Marjory Louise, which were the names of my mother, Marjory Louise.

[26:15]

What was your mother like?

Oh, she was very – she was very good, a wonderful mother, really. And of course, times – times were hard, even though we were fortunate in some respects that – I always remember we had a car, even in those days. You know, I’m thinking about the – the late ’20s, early ‘30s. My father had a car, quite unique in those days, time like that. But we never had a telephone. We only had a telephone when the war started and the firm thought that my father ought to be on the phone. But apart from that, it was – the town was – the – very much the – where the two rivers came together, the Calder and the – and the Ribble – well, it was out of town really where they joined, but there was a river called the Hyndburn, which flowed into the Calder. So it was – it was very much – of course the textile industry, as I’m sure you know only too well, developed in East Lancashire because there was coal and there was water. And the collieries were – were still very much alive in the town. And even after the – the war, there was – they opened some drift mining. And the thing I remember, that in the recession of the early 1930s – I remember that well, and that at primary school you were a bit unique if your father had a job. The unemployment was rife. And of course over the years the waste from the colliery workings had been tipped out on – on open ground, on the high ground outside the town, and people used to go scavenging for coal chippings, if you like, up there, with old prams and so on. It was – it was pretty hard times. I suppose we were fortunate that our father had a – had a job. So we must have been worth something to the firm.

[29:00]

Whereabouts in the firm does your father sit in terms of seniority?

12 Harry Yeadon Page 13 C1379/82 Track 1

A bit difficult to judge. He wasn’t a director, but I suppose you’d say senior management in some form or other. He seemed to get involved in all sorts of other activities apart from electrical work.

What sort of things?

Well, I remember they had a big – of course, as you probably know, most of the mills had their own water source, reservoir, or a lodge [ph], as they were always known. And they had quite a big reservoir there. And on one occasion, he said, ‘Come and have a look at this.’ He took me to this reservoir, which had developed a coating of algae on – on the surface. And he said, ‘Look, you ought to be able to come up with an answer to this,’ because I was at university at the time. And so I consulted people there and of course one answer was copper sulphate to kill off the algae. Whether it worked permanently, I don’t know [laughs]. It was just an odd activity.

Did your father have any interests outside work?

His car. Erm, what else? He wasn’t – he wasn’t a golfer. I was never a golfer. We used to sail boats outside on the river, but that’s another – another side to my – why I came to live in Lytham. Erm, no, I … he worked very hard. I think that – that’s it. And yes, I – he’d got a reasonable social life with friends and so on. And we had relatives in the – in the town. My mother had a sister, who was married to a dentist, who, interestingly, had lost a leg in the first war and instead of having a – if you went for a drilling, instead of [laughs] a power drill, he had a treadle machine, which he used his good leg to … [Laughs] Quite a character. And he’d have his smoker. You know, if you went – all his hands, you know, they were all covered in nicotine [laughs], great character. Uncle Percy, he was known. So he was the only remaining – or they were the only remaining relatives in – in the town that the – anyway.

[32:00]

I’m just going to pause you for one second.

13 Harry Yeadon Page 14 C1379/82 Track 1

But coming back to Accrington, the – the property was all good. It was very much stone built. Even though, as I say, it was a big brick producing place in the town. But the – the thing was that the – if you got a long terrace, the face – the front of the terrace was all beautifully cut masonry by local quarries, and yet behind, the rear of the property, was brick and quite unique in some respects, I suppose.

What was your home like?

Well, it was of that type. But, er, yeah, they were substantial houses, solidly built. And most properties were like that. There were only comparatively few, like you say, detached properties. Some came from the development in the – in the ‘30s, later on, you know, as building – but my vintage was – was stone built fascia terraces, which ran up to the high ground out of the town. And the quarries, of course, were quite a big industry on the high ground out of the town. In fact, over to a place called Haslingden, if that means anything to you – well, Haslingden flags, renowned. In fact, Trafalgar Square is surfaced with – and has been resurfaced, I think, in recent years, with sandstone, which is – it’s a sort of grit stone, really, from that area, which was a bit unique. But it was a great playground, because we used to go – go up there on the high ground and it was great [laughs].

What do you do up there?

Oh, all sorts of things. We used to take picnics and light little fires and cook things and so on. A great place for Scouts and Cubs and things like that. Oh yes, we were quite lively. And of course, the other thing about Accrington, which – I’m sure you’ve heard of Accrington Stanley, of course, the football club. Everybody’s heard of Accrington Stanley.

Who are they?

[Laughs] Well, the former members of the football league, of course. And their ground was not far away from where we lived, just on the edge of the town, and we

14 Harry Yeadon Page 15 C1379/82 Track 1 knew ways of getting into the ground without paying, through holes in the fence [laughs]. Oh dear.

[35:25]

What sort of things interested you as a child?

Well, I suppose – well, I mentioned the Cubs and Scouts and – and so on, and of course football. And we used to go to church. We were churchgoers. And, er, that was about it really, I suppose.

What sort of church?

Church of England. Church right at the centre of the town. Yeah. But very good – it’s a very good building. I mean, the town hall is – as you know, the tradition of good town halls in – in Lancashire, in the north west, and very substantial town hall, and a big market hall. And an open market as well as a closed market.

What’s the difference?

Well, the closed market, of course, was stalls within – within a building. And of course the whole place was secure in terms of being locked up, whereas the stalls were only put up perhaps a couple of days a week, on the open area outside. That was – that was the difference.

Were either of your parents particularly religious?

Not particularly, run of the mill.

What is run of the mill by 1930? [Laughs]

Well, fairly regular attenders. And any – any weddings in the family were always Church of England weddings. I’m not thinking about our own family particular, but –

15 Harry Yeadon Page 16 C1379/82 Track 1 well, they were – they were both married. They were both – my two sisters were both married at the beginning of the war. As soon as the war started, they got married. And cousins and so on from the other branch of the family. Yeah.

How about yourself? Are you a churchgoer?

Well, I took communion. I won’t say – oh yes, we used to have to go regularly on a Sunday morning. Oh, no doubt. I mean, that was the thing that my father did if he was going to the works. He’d always run us to the church, which wasn’t very far away, only walking distance and so on. So in that sense I suppose you’d say fairly regular churchgoers. And the curate at the time, I remember, got quite friendly with one of my sisters [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way.

Did you continue to be a churchgoer?

Well, we’ve been associated with St Catherine’s here. We’ve lived here for – how long? I don’t mean in this property, but in Lytham St Anne’s, for fifty seven years. And I had two sons, who were both in the choir there for years. One of them – the elder one lives out in Hong Kong. He’s been out there for, well, nearly thirty years, I suppose. He’s a lawyer. And his two sons were born and brought up in Hong Kong. And the other one lives in London – well, he works in London, lives in Wimbledon, and he’s a chartered surveyor. And he has two sons.

Did your parents have any particular political outlook?

Oh, they – they would be definitely Conservative, no doubt about it. And even in a town like that, when I first became conscious of politics and so on, the MP was – the local MP was a Conservative, even though, you know, it was very much a working class town. You know, they were very, very traditionalist in that sense. And, you know, the – the mill owners and managers lived in the area, you know. It was all a case of – a story I remember of one chap, who was always inclined to be a bit late getting to work, and the boss getting hold of him and saying, you know, ‘Why is it that you’re always late and you live just round the corner, and so and so lives a mile

16 Harry Yeadon Page 17 C1379/82 Track 1 away, always on time – on time?’ So the owner’s reply was, ‘Well, he’s got time to run.’ [Laughs] Anyway, that’s by the way. But –

You sound very definite that your parents were Conservative.

Oh yes, oh very much so, oh yes. And of course I suppose it stems from the – oh, I should have mentioned my mother’s family. My mother’s father was a wholesale tobacconist with several shops in the town and a wholesale market, and of course tobacco was a big thing in those days. And my father wasn’t a heavy smoker but my mother was, because that was in her family, if you like [laughs]. So they were business people, her family. Now I suppose that had – had an effect. Yeah.

How did your parents meet?

Good question. I really don’t know. It was in the – in the town. It must have been during the first war, although my father wasn’t in the services. He was too old. And – but it must have – it was during that period, because – I can’t remember the year when they were married, but it would be about – my older sister, she was born in 1917, so – and the younger one was 1919, so, you know, very much wartime situation.

[42:50]

I was wondering if you could describe to me what your own home was like.

Ah, well, it wasn’t like this. You went in – it had only – only a comparatively small front garden, with a garden path, and it was a busy road. It was a trunk road. I’ll come back to that in a moment. And you went in and you – you went into a hall. Along the left hand side was a door into the main sitting room, I think you’d call it, and then you went – at the end of the passageway and the stairs ran up from there, with three bedrooms upstairs and a bathroom. But at the bottom of the stairs there was a door off to the left, which went into the dining room. You went through the dining room into a kitchen at the back and also a back kitchen, or scullery, as it used

17 Harry Yeadon Page 18 C1379/82 Track 1 to be called. And then there was a backdoor into the back garden, and so on. So that was basically the format. And there was a backstreet, which was only used for coming and emptying the – the – we didn’t have bins in those days, ash pits, they were called, you know, because it was all fires, coal fires. And so they used to come and empty, by hand, ‘cause there was an access board into the backstreet, so they could come and empty the backstreet. There was an outside toilet there as well. Of course there was one upstairs in the bathroom. And then behind that were open fields and then in the 1930s, when building started, you know, building boom, if you like, of housing, this was bought by a developer and the housing estate developed on there, which was quite different to the – to the type of property we were in. But we were on the – on the trunk road.

[45:17]

And in fact it’s interesting, and I suppose we’ll come to it when we get down to nitty- gritty, the last major motorway which I was involved with actually bypassed the road on which I was born – I don’t mean born on the road [laughs], but in a house on the road, which was, I suppose, interesting in a way, having spent thirty years on – on motorways and so on. And this was the last one. And there’s a long story attached to – to why that came so late, but – I could deal with that now, if you like, or later?

Shall we do it in context later, as part of the programme.

Oh right. Yes, the point was that politically, and – and certainly towards the – more towards the latter end of my career, the – when the Conservatives were in power, the emphasis was on the western part of the county and southern part, because the chairman at the time, he lived in Ormskirk, which, you probably know, is down towards Liverpool, down there. So there was very much an emphasis in that respect. And yet Jim Drake, who I referred to and I’ll refer to later, as it so happened, he came from Accrington as well. And in fact the chap that I mentioned, who lives only about a mile away, younger man, who joined the department, a chap called Peter Hewitt, who has been very much involved in the – in the website for the motorway archive [ph] – and he came from that area, went to the same school. And, you know, so

18 Harry Yeadon Page 19 C1379/82 Track 1 we’ve got a bit of a tradition [laughs]. But Jim Drake was quite – quite a character. And – and it was his forthright approach to things that – because we could see, coming from that area, the decline in the basic industries, quite severe of course, and even though there was a big of an upsurge after the second war. And of course that was then the time when a lot of the immigrants came into places like Burnley, and it applies also to other parts in North East Lancashire, places like Rochdale and Oldham, full of immigrants who came in, working in the textile industry. And so there was this decline, very much so, and those of us who were Lancastrians, we realised, we’ve got to do something about it, in terms of seeing that these areas didn’t die. And the mining, of course, had closed down, even though there was a bit of drift mining. But the – that was a key factor. And Jim Drake, who was a – also a Manchester graduate, by the way, and had been the borough surveyor of Blackpool immediately before the war – in fact, it’s interesting; he used to tell a tale about a friend of his who he’d been at school with, who – before he moved to Blackpool he was working in the local area, Jim Drake. And he knew that this chap was in the – in the area, and he tried to ring him one day and – and the girl must have answered the phone and said, ‘Well, who’s ringing?’ And he said, ‘My name’s Drake.’ He was a very forthright character. ‘The name’s Drake.’ And the girl said, ‘Drake?’ So he said, ‘Yes, Drake, Drake.’ So she said, ‘How do you spell it?’ So he said, ‘D-R-A-K-E.’ And she still sort of couldn’t get this at all. So he said, ‘Drake, Sir Francis Drake.’ The funny part was, when the fellow came back to his office, the girl had said to him, ‘Sir Francis Drake’s been on the phone’ [laughs]. It was a good story. But he was a great character. And the interesting thing was – you may remember from that note I produced, when I came out the army and I got a job down in the West Country, Gloucester – but the – and then they were advertising for staff on the – in the county in Preston. And my father wasn’t very well at the time and I thought I’d better come back north because of the – the finance wasn’t going to be available for the big schemes that we wanted to carry out in the Severn Estuary. So I applied for this job and – and of course it was only a junior job, you know. I’d never – I’d never worked in, you know, a proper job [laughs], up to that time. And so I was interviewed by – I suppose it was assistant county surveyor level or something like that, and – and I got appointed. And not long after that, Jim Drake sent for me. And I was only a junior, so I, you know, trepidation, went in. ‘Oh, I didn’t know you’d been appointed here.’ ‘Cause he knew

19 Harry Yeadon Page 20 C1379/82 Track 1 the family, you see. Having come from the same town, he knew all about me, but he didn’t know. So I – you couldn’t say it was anything to do with – what’s the term? [Laughs] You know, [inaud] at all. And fortunately – nothing to do with it, but I got on extremely well with him, even though, you know, he – you were sacked quite often, you know. If something went wrong, if something had gone wrong, and he’d blow his top late in the afternoon and say, ‘Right, you’re sacked.’ And he’d forgotten all about it the next morning. What he really meant was that you’re sacked from that particular task. He’d put you onto something else. So I was fortunate in the sense that – not because of him, but we got on well. And I suppose we were of the same ilk, you see [laughs], call a spade a bloody shovel, you know, that sort of thing. But I can talk all day about Jim Drake.

[52:55]

How did the last motorway come to be on the site of the – as a bypass for the A20?

No, it was – it wasn’t the A20. It was a bypass to the A679, which ran through from – well, Blackburn, Preston, Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Nelson, Colne, right up the boundary of the Calder Valley, and there was a link off from Burnley, which went south, the A646, which went through to West Yorkshire, through places like Todmorden and through to Halifax and – and so on. But the – as I say, there was the decline there in industry. And we managed to get some improvement done to another road, which on the other side of the Calder Valley from the road which I mentioned, which was – ran through on the south side of the valley. And, er, we also – it was very tricky about that time because – in Drake’s time. Barbara Castle was the MP for Blackburn and Blackburn as a county borough, of course, were a highway authority in their own right. And they had proposals – it may have been a different colour. It may have been Conservative in Blackburn at that time, because they went for a line going right through Blackburn, a line, a new road. They weren’t describing it as a motorway, a new road. And she’s reputed to have said, ‘It won’t go through Blackburn, except over my dead body.’ And of course some other people said, ‘Ooh, what a good idea’ [laughs], you know, politically. But anyway, the – so it was controversial in that sense, that Blackburn had this route that they’d been protecting,

20 Harry Yeadon Page 21 C1379/82 Track 1 which followed the – of course the main railway, up the – up through East Lancashire, formed that pattern from Preston, through Blackburn, Burnley, Nelson, Colne, all on that rail link. And, erm, so controversial in that sense. So what Jim Drake thought was the best we could do was to go along the Ribble Valley rather than the Calder Valley. So from Preston, you went up the hill out of Preston, going towards Blackburn, but you didn’t take that route. You followed the – the Ribble Valley right up and getting over into Yorkshire that way, because he was keen that Lancashire should be linked to Yorkshire, for all sorts of good commercial reasons. And so Whalley-Clitheroe bypass – I don’t know whether these places mean anything to you, but Whalley and Clitheroe were on this – this route, and so one of the jobs we – he developed was a bypass of Whalley and Clitheroe. And in fact it was interesting because, at the time I was at the road construction unit, I wasn’t dealing purely and simply with motorways. I was dealing with major trunk road schemes. And I found myself leading a public inquiry on behalf of the Department of Transport, on secondment, on compulsory purchase orders, I think it was, and the line itself. In fact, it was an interesting public inquiry. I remember it well. The inspector was a – am I boring you on this? The inspector was a retired town clerk from somewhere. And we got to the end of the formal proceedings of the public inquiry. It was quite short, the formal proceedings, because there wasn’t a great deal of objection. I can deal with that separately anyway. And the inspector said, ‘Well, it’s only early afternoon. I’d like to have a look on the line of the route.’ Well of course, as you probably know, the correct ethical approach is that, when the inspector goes on – on an inspection of the site, he invites anyone to come with him, particularly objectors and so on, so they can point out what their points of concern would be. So I wasn’t really in a position to say, ‘No, you can’t do that.’ And so [laughs] – and nobody in the audience objected to it, because the formal – formal inspection was going to be the following day. So we set off and I took him right along the line of this – this bypass, stopping and starting. And it got late in the afternoon, so I said, ‘Well, wouldn’t you like to sort of stop for some refreshment or something?’ And he said – he said, ‘I wouldn’t mind a pint of beer.’ So said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘We’re in the situation whereby …’ We were within minutes of the border with what was then Yorkshire. It’s now part of Lancashire but that’s another story. And so I said, ‘Well, I know the pubs aren’t open till six o’clock on the Lancashire side. They might be on the Yorkshire side.’ And so

21 Harry Yeadon Page 22 C1379/82 Track 1 we went over into Yorkshire, looking for a pub that was open. We couldn’t find one. We came back in Lancashire. And when he wrote his report on the inquiry and he went through the whole thing, beautiful copperplate handwriting, and he went through all the evidence and so on, and he finished up at the end by saying, ‘I find public inquiries always very interesting experiences and very pleasant sometimes, and this was more pleasant than others.’ Because we’d found a pub that was … [Laughs] Don’t quote me on that. I suppose he’ll be dead and buried now.

[59:55]

But anyway, coming back to your question. The – as I say, the county council’s approach was to go along the Ribble Valley, over into Yorkshire, because of the problems of Blackburn. And the other thing was that over in – as you go further east beyond Burnley, places like Nelson and Colne, this is very much Liberal country, surprisingly. And – and they weren’t happy about a major road going through their area. But there was a lot of enthusiasm from Conservative councillors of various types and – and the local authorities were quite helpful in that sense, the formal local authorities. And so it was a case of applying pressure on – on central government eventually. And they came out – the Department of Transport came out in, when would it be, about 19 – oh dear me, 1970 – it wouldn’t have been long after reorganisation, 1974. They came out with one of the first major public consultation proposals and they had – was it five or six – six alternative routes through and around Blackburn, quite incredible. I think it must have cost a fortune. And the whole thing was an absolute disaster. I mean, we’d nothing to do with it. It was, you know, they were running it. And the – the – if it was six routes, I can’t remember offhand, five of them were motorway routes and one was an all purpose road, not – not motorway, going to the south of Blackburn, which is the one that we didn’t favour because it wasn’t picking up the – the areas that we thought were – were vital in terms of industry and so on. And so we fought this at length. And in fact I was involved with a major deputation down to see Linda Chalker, who you probably remember. She was the minister at the time, Ministry of Transport. And this had all the local authorities represented, including Blackburn and Burnley, because they’d come round a bit for this, ‘cause Margaret – Barbara Castle had moved on. And we had all the

22 Harry Yeadon Page 23 C1379/82 Track 1 local MPs. And it was the biggest deputation I’d ever been on, and I’d been on a few. And the only – the only one who wasn’t with me, surprisingly, was a chap – I suppose I’ll mention his name, a chap called Den Dover, who was a Conservative member for Chorley and was a civil engineer. And he used to greet me in Christian name terms, you see, because of that. And he’d worked for Greater London Council, this fellow. And – and he sort of – and this big group – we had an enormous room in – down in the ministry for this meeting. There must have been about thirty of us there. And – and Linda Chalker said, you know, found this a bit surprising. There was sort of overwhelming support for a proper motorway route up through there. And Den Dover was the only one who was objecting, because it went through part of his patch, you see, very parochial. And so I said to – to Linda Chalker, I said, ‘Look,’ and I’d produced a report on all this, what I thought about these – these routes and this particular all purpose road. And I said, ‘Well, it’s pretty clear that Mr Dover hasn’t read this report.’ And everybody else had got a copy of it. And – and she said – and he had to admit that he hadn’t read it. And so I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘I am quite happy to meet Mr Dover at any time and any place of his choice, and go through this report in detail.’ So Linda Chalker said, ‘Oh, that’s a good idea. That’s a way forward,’ you see. And so it was left on that basis.

[1:05:00]

And a few days later I got a call, a telephone call, from – from Dover, or his secretary, and the only – the only date he could offer was a Saturday afternoon and – and I’d said I’d open my office in Preston for it, if that’s what he wanted. And I said, ‘Right, okay.’ And it was the day when England were playing the All Blacks [laughs]. Anyway, I got – I got one of my chaps in with me, you know, it wasn’t just me. And we went right through the report – a chap who’d helped prepare this, and he was a rugby player as well. And [laughs] so Dover went off, I like to think with his tail between his legs, and it wasn’t long before Linda Chalker, who by the way is mentioned in that book, announced that a route that we were in favour of, which was a motorway route on the south side of Blackburn – it wasn’t quite what we wanted, but at least it was a motorway. And we’d already spent – beyond Blackburn, up until the Burnley, Colne area, which was replacing a county road rather than a trunk road, we’d

23 Harry Yeadon Page 24 C1379/82 Track 1 spent about £130 million or something on the motorway already. So there was an isolated bit of motorway on its own up the Calder Valley and then there was this spot in Blackburn. Anyway, she did the right thing and gave the okay and that – and it took off from there. So it was very much a political and a public relations nonsense, quite frankly, part of the department.

Which motorway was this?

This is – this is – erm, where are? Erm – ah, good heavens [laughs]. Erm, good heavens, forgetting the numbers. I’ll turn it up on there. I’ll show you where it is. Good heavens, I must be going bonkers. It’s short term memory, you know, that’s the problem …

[Long pause – female enters room and searching for motorway number]

Oh good heavens, it’s M65 [laughs]. Fancy forgetting that. Yeah, M65, yeah.

That seems like a good time to break for – for lunch. Thank you.

It takes the six, you see, because it runs from the M6. That’s the –

And then the five is ‘cause it’s the fifth road off it?

Well, I don’t know whether you’d familiar with the numbering of – of roads in this country?

I’ve never quite understood it.

Well, the original numbering was taking London as the focal point and then going out from there was, of course, the A1 and then – running up on the east side, A2 down into Kent, A3 down to Southampton, thereabouts, A4 running through to Bristol, A5 running up into, well, North Wales, really, and A6, which came up through this area, through Preston and up to Scotland, of course. And the, er – there wasn’t an A7 or an

24 Harry Yeadon Page 25 C1379/82 Track 1

A8, but they – in Scotland they picked up some of the numbering. But the numbering taken from there – those are the main trunk routes where, if you took the slice between any of those – take, for example, the – well, the A5 and the A6, and of course you got the M6, you see, coming, because it – it kept to the six and picked up the M. It isn’t – it doesn’t follow a completely regular pattern but that – that’s the basics of it, taking it clockwise from – from London. And the B roads – well, you’ve got the A roads, of course, and then the B roads, of course, stem from that, with four numbers, etc. But anyway, that’s the background, yeah.

Shall we stop there?

Right.

[End of Track 1]

25 Harry Yeadon Page 26 C1379/82 Track 2

Track 2

I was wondering if you saw much of your father’s work. You mentioned one or two trips, but I wasn’t quite sure how frequently those would take place?

Er, not very frequently. Probably, you know, once a month or two, or something like that, to see what, you know, if there was something interesting going on in terms of – you see, they tended to, an organisation like that, do all the major changes in the set up of the plant at weekends. And that was really the purpose of the visit.

What sort of things did you see?

Er, well, as I say, changing from the – the belting system of transmitting power from the big boiler, if you like, or steam engine. Erm, that was the main – main thing, I think, from what I remember. But it was just sort of general interest. The thing that I remember particularly – you might think this is only a minor point, is how all the – the floors of the – the factories, because there was more than one building, were all oily, you know, with oil droppings over the years. And there was always the smell of oil as you walked through [laughs]. But it was – I suppose it was typical of the mills of the day, although it wasn’t a mill as such. It had been built as – as a manufacturing setup, you know, the multi-storey buildings. And – and the other thing I remember was the moulding shops, ‘cause a lot of castings there, and that was a filthy job and – using moulding sand, you know, for formers. A lot of that went on. And I seem to remember mainly Irish labour, ‘cause the Irish immigrants coming in and they were the sort of, you know, desperate for work and so on. And so there was – there was quite a – I’d forgotten this, quite an Irish community in a way as part of the – the town. And that’s why, you know, Roman Catholics in that area are quite strong. But, you know, it worked very well. And one thing that I commented on on the opening ceremony for the Olympic Games, when they were going back in history and so on, and they kept showing – not that I’m in any way a racist or anything like that, one with a black face. And I remember saying to Cybil, there weren’t any people with – there was one man in the town, I remember, known by everybody. I think they called him Prince, a great character, on his own, and he was a black man, and he was quite

26 Harry Yeadon Page 27 C1379/82 Track 2 unique. And apart from that, no immigrants at all, and certainly no Eastern people at all. Oh, I think there was a Chinese laundry somewhere [laughs].

What did he do?

What, the black man? I’ve no idea [laughs]. I’ve no idea. Yes. Always had a grin on his face.

[04:30]

But the school, the grammar school, which we all went to, it was very good, a very high reputation –

Where did you actually go to school first?

Accrington. Well, I went to the local primary school. And then – the headmaster lived across the road from where we lived, of the primary school, so you were – everybody knew what was going on [laughs]. But the – yes?

What sort of place was it, the primary school?

It was good. I remember it well. And that – that was masonry construction. Peel Park, it was called. And the football ground was known as Peel Park, where Accrington Stanley played. And – and there was some connection with – with Peel historically, and I can’t remember precisely what it was. So it was known as Peel Park. And it may be that the – there was some land ownership, something like that.

What are your strongest memories of Peel Park School?

It was good, very good. And, er, everybody did well from there, no doubt about it, even those going into – that didn’t go to the grammar school. Because I mean, that was a bit limited, the number that went to the grammar school from the primary school. It was quite limited. But it seemed to work very well. And there was another

27 Harry Yeadon Page 28 C1379/82 Track 2 school in between, which was called the – oh dear me, which was a sort of halfway house between a fully fledged grammar school, where the headmaster was a – I don’t know what his PhD was in [laughs], but he was a doctor, Dr Edkins, great character. And a very good reputation. And a lot of popular people came from – came from there. It was always pointed out that the – I don’t think it appears now. On banknotes, the cashier of the Bank of England was a chap called Catterns and he was an ex boy from – from there. Er …

What did you think was good about it?

Well, I think that the headmaster was really on the ball. The teachers were very good, and they all lived locally. Everybody knew them and they knew everybody, and I think that had an impact, you know. There was very little misbehaviour, if I might put it that way.

[08:00]

Although I think I remember – particularly where we lived was just on the edge of the town and as you went farther up the road towards Burnley, you went into a sort of wooded area. And at bonfire plot days, times, there was a source of material for the bonfire, and we used to lie and wait because boys used to come out of the town and go up there, and they used to come down the road and we used to [laughs] raid them and pinch their wood [laughs]. Funny how you remember odd things.

Did you enjoy school at first?

I think so, yeah. I think so.

Were there any parts of it you took to in particular?

Er, no. I always – I think I did reasonably well. And I enjoyed maths and so on. And the other thing I enjoyed, going to the grammar school, was Latin, ‘cause I always felt that Latin was very – very much logic, like maths, really. Would you agree now?

28 Harry Yeadon Page 29 C1379/82 Track 2

I never took Latin.

Didn’t you?

No.

Oh, I liked Latin. I thought it made, you know, it made sense. I don’t know much about it now.

What did you like about it?

Sorry?

What did you like about it?

About it? Because it was so logical, you know. You know, compared with English as such, as we know, it’s a real mixed bag, isn’t it? There’s no real pattern to it. I thought that Latin was good.

[09:56]

And I was never happy about physics and chemistry because the teacher was hopeless. This was at the grammar school. A little fellow with a bristling moustache. But he wasn’t very good, which is surprising, really, because I went into scientific subjects. But the maths master was an excellent fellow, a chap called, I remember his name now, called Moore. We always referred to him as Thug Moore because he played rugby. And surprisingly, I bumped into him long after the war, because when he came out of the services he joined the civil service and became a sort of – I think it was the regional – the regional officer in Manchester, and he ran this place. And it was at some dinner in Manchester and I bumped into him, Thug Moore. Hadn’t seen him for years [laughs].

29 Harry Yeadon Page 30 C1379/82 Track 2

What made him a good teacher, do you think?

Well, he knew what he wanted. He was tough and, you know – and I think he was very – he was very good, you know. That’s all I can remember. Everybody had a high regard for him. But it was interesting that in the – the building, it was a fairly old building, not all that, you know, stone faced masonry, again. But the basement floor, surprisingly, was full of textile machinery because people used to go there – they must have gone in the evenings or something, night school and so on, learning business as far as textile machinery and manufacturing was concerned. So there was a link there. And the other prominent place in – in the town – two prominent buildings. One was a very good library, Carnegie Library. I don’t know whether – how wide it was. You probably know this only too well, you know, the development of libraries financed by Carnegie was quite something. And there was what was known as the Mechanics Institute, and this was sort of an upmarket gentleman’s club in a way, and yet it was the Mechanics Institute. Yeah.

Which school did you actually go to?

Which one?

Which school, yeah, the grammar school?

Accrington Grammar School.

Did you have to sit the Eleven Plus, or whatever it was at that time, to get in?

I don’t think so. I can’t remember now. We all went there. My sisters went there. It was co-ed. And, er, yeah. I … I can’t remember how we got there, but we got there. And it worked very well. A few children went from there to a school in Blackburn, and I think it was because they – I liked to think it was because they couldn’t get in at Accrington, so they went to Blackburn, which I think was partially fee paying. And I seem to remember, yes, if your – even if you got a so-called scholarship there, if your father’s salary was at a certain level, then you had to pay a sum. I think there was

30 Harry Yeadon Page 31 C1379/82 Track 2 some arrangement like that. So it wasn’t all free, the so-called scholarship. But it was a good mix of – of a community, very much so. And a lot of people went off to universities, etc, etc.

[14:45]

What were your – what subjects did you actually take altogether?

Well, it was maths and – er, well, there was – there was applied maths and pure maths, I seem to remember, and the science subjects, physics and chemistry. I think those were the three – three basics. And I must have done reasonably well in them because otherwise I wouldn’t have got into university [laughs].

Why did you say that physics and chemistry were badly taught? Could you give me an example of how so?

Well, there was no – no pattern to it, you know. You couldn’t, you know, what – what was this all about, sort of situation, you know, chemistry. And I remember this chap with a bristly moustache and he used to talk about the Whimshurst machine [ph]. It was a physics thing [laughs] [inaud]. Oh, Bunny Brookes, he was called. And there was a woman by the name of Miss – Miss Scotney [ph], and there was a large lady, who taught domestic science to the girls, and she was a very large heavyweight lady, and she was the one who was behind all the athletics, surprisingly, yes. And the – my two sisters used to get – go up – get up early in the morning and go up the – go up the road to the cricket field and go running, and she always appeared. You know, eight o’clock in the morning and she’d be there.

[16:45]

By the way, there’s something I didn’t mention and that was the importance – I mentioned Accrington Stanley – of cricket, because all the towns in that area were part of the Lancashire League Cricket Federation, I suppose, and – which was very active. And it was a system whereby each club in each town was allowed to have one

31 Harry Yeadon Page 32 C1379/82 Track 2 professional. And we had all the best players in the – in the world there, Australians, you know. People like Lindwall, who probably doesn’t mean a thing to you, you know, Australian fast bowler, and coming and spending the season there. And of course the – I think they were paid handsomely. Constantine, does that mean anything to you? Constantine was a – a black fellow and he played for Nelson and – West Indies player, and – brilliant cricketer. And I remember – [laughs] now this was interesting. I remember, er, the – that’s right, Accrington were playing Nelson when he was the pro, and a few of us, you know, we were junior members of the club anyway, going on the train to Nelson, which was only, you know, two or three stops. And Constantine, he was playing, and I seem to remember we got something like 120 runs or something. It was only Saturday afternoon cricket, of course. And we said to – half a dozen of us. We said, ‘Oh, Accrington will soon knock that off, you know. 120, easy stuff [ph].’ That was the local lads. And of course, when Accrington went in, we were all out with twelve, and Constantine got ten wickets for ten runs. Now there was a sequence to that, because – I mentioned M65, which actually chipped a bit off Nelson cricket ground. Now they did very well, because they got a new pavilion out of us. And we were invited, the chairman and myself, to the opening of this new pavilion. We went along. And the mayor was holding forth about the heydays of Lancashire League cricket and about Constantine playing and Nelson playing Accrington. And he mentioned this – this particular game. And I went up to him afterwards and I said, ‘I was there that day.’ [Laughs] He said, ‘So was I.’ No, Lancashire League cricket was quite something, and in many respects quite unique. As I say, some of the best players in the world play there.

Did you play yourself?

Oh yes, in a minor sort of way, but I didn’t play for the – the main team, who were very, very good amateurs. And of course, the role of the professional was to act as a coach to the amateurs, so they all came on very well. You know, and they would train quite – quite hard. How active it is these days, I’ve no idea, but I assume it’s still going. There were other leagues, Central Lancashire League, but the Lancashire League was quite something. And I think Yorkshire were playing a league over there, which was of the same ilk. And thrived on – on the high standard.

32 Harry Yeadon Page 33 C1379/82 Track 2

[20:50]

On the subject of, I guess, hobbies and pastime, I was wondering if you had any toys when you were growing up that you remember in particular?

Not particularly. I’m surprised at that. I can’t remember. I think I had some Meccano, but not a lot. And I don’t think it featured very strongly. You know, we were nose to the grindstone in terms of homework and that sort of thing. And of course we didn’t have television in those day anyway. Erm, no. It was – it was different. We had a radio. I remember the first radio we got, which was quite something. Yeah [laughs].

Why do you say it was quite something?

Well it was. You know, to have a radio, you were, you know, you were getting somewhere if you had a radio.

Do you remember any programmes in particular?

I don’t think so. I can’t remember particularly.

Do you have any other, I guess, hobbies and interests?

I think, you know, sport. Used to play football and a bit of cricket just between ourselves. You know, it was a case of local area where there were garage doors and so on, where you chalked on wickets, you know [laughs], and bowled away.

You mentioned you were in the Scouts as well.

Yes, yeah.

What sort of things does one do in the Scouts in the 1930s?

33 Harry Yeadon Page 34 C1379/82 Track 2

Well, you met once a week and – and at weekends you went off doing things, up on the tops, we used to call it. The Coppice, it was known. And, er, what else did we do? Oh yes, annual camp. We used to go – we always went to a place called Downham, which is near Clitheroe, just up the Ribble Valley, and we used to go up there at sort of the sort of Whit holiday period and, you know, and all the gear, and a farm we used to go to. And then in the summer we’d go up to the – the Lake District and a favourite place up there. I don’t know how well you know the Lake District, but it was Cartmell Fell, miles away from Cartmell, if you know Cartmell. Well, Cartmell, that’s where the – they call it a priory there, you know, quite an important ecclesiastical place. But Cartmell Fell was quite some distance away and I suppose it had been owned by the church authorities going way back. It was a wild sort of plantation, really, and we used to camp in there. And the annual – the trips we used to go on, Grange Over Sands, which you may have heard of, which is on Morecambe Bay, and we used to have to walk everywhere. And we’d walk to Grange and they had an open air swimming pool there, so we used to go for a swim there and have a fish and chip tea, or meal or something, and then have to walk all the way back. And what else did we do? That was the main thing I think, outings of that order. One thing I can remember also is camping in this rather wild plantation, of somebody catching a snake, an adder, and putting it in a jam jar, not realising what it was. Thought it was a grass snake and it wasn’t. And taking it to show somebody. And they said, ‘Oh no, poisonous,’ you know [laughs]. It had been in – in somebody’s tent all night, you know [laughs]. Oh dear. But yeah, they were a good crowd.

What did you like about Scouts?

What did I like about it? Oh, I thought it was good. I think the – the principles of Scouting are absolutely right, you know, and I think that one of the best things – I rather regret that my grandsons, plural, have not become involved, because our two sons, they were both, locally here, in the Cubs and Scouts, until, you know, about, I don’t know, fifteen, sixteen, they gave it up. But it’s interesting, they just- I haven’t seen it yet. They have a very good sort of Scout hut in – in St Anne’s and some – I don’t know the background to it, some arsonist set fire to this and burnt the damn

34 Harry Yeadon Page 35 C1379/82 Track 2 thing down and they’ve only recently rebuilt it. They started a fund for money to rebuild and it’s only just recently been opened, so, you know, at least it’s thriving. Yeah.

Do you think that you got anything out of Scouts in particular?

Er, I think the – the principles are perfectly sound and – of Scouting and, you know, the – well, the general – general relationship with people, you know. And we used to do odd jobs and so on, which I think was – on behalf of people. I think that was good. And yes, I think it’s a – I think it’s very good, the Scout movement, and I’m pleased to know that it’s thriving at the moment in terms of membership. I think that’s very good. When I came out of the army and I was at home, I bumped into the chap who’d been the Scoutmaster in our troop and he tried to talk me into getting involved in perhaps, you know, running part of the system, and I said, ‘Look, you know, I’ve got to get down to getting a job and so on.’ And I declined. But I don’t think I would have been sort of that enthusiastic with other – other things, like sports and so on. But, you know, I’m pleased that there are people doing it.

[28:25]

Did you do much reading as a child?

Yes [laughs].

What sort of things?

What, reading? Erm, well, apart from books concerned with the degree course, of course there was always something there, and I know – going back, before I went to university, I think I read all of, er, Buchan’s books, you know, those – I enjoyed those very much. I enjoyed – well, I won’t say enjoyed, but I was interested in some of the wartime books, you know, about the war itself, because you tended to be – if you were away during the war, you only knew in a way what was going on in your particular sphere of operations. You didn’t know much about what was going on

35 Harry Yeadon Page 36 C1379/82 Track 2 elsewhere. And so in a way – I mean, that wouldn’t happen now, of course, but I think that was – that was a factor. You didn’t realise that. And the only – the only time you – you began to realise that, because as far as friends were concerned, local friends, a lot were lost during the war. And I think out of – I was only thinking about this the other day, seven of us who were quite close locally, good pals, and I think only three of us came back, one of whom sort of died soon afterwards. And then you realised, you know, you remember what happened to them. One lost in the – in the desert in tanks, Eighth Army. Another one joined the navy and was lost at sea. And what else was the other one? Oh yes, a chap in – a great pal of mine, who was lost in – killed in North West Europe. You know, that sort of thing, I mean, you began to realise. But you only heard about it from the family, of course, who would let you know. Unfortunately a letter or something that so and so’s gone. Oh, there were more than that. No, there was another chap. So it was about – I think about five out of the seven or eight of us locally, er, didn’t come back. We were of that age group, you see. This is the point, you know. Eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds, you know, it was – we were very vulnerable in terms of casualties, erm, which was sad.

Who were your closest friends when you were growing up?

Yes.

Who were your closest friends when you were growing up?

Well, there’s – there’s only one that I’m still in touch. And in fact we were only saying the other day, I ought to go and see him. And – a chap called Kenneth Bradshaw and he lives over in – near Burnley at the moment, and his wife, who I knew very well as well, and she’s in a home somewhere. And we keep saying we’ll go over and see him. And he’s probably my oldest one, because we were in – in our prams about the same time, you know, living – living across the road. And I kept in touch with him. And the – I suppose the others – you see, some of these were in the Scouts with us anyway, so, you know, you’d – you got a lot of contacts in that sense. And oh yes, one early recollection, I can remember going to the Cubs. And we were living on this trunk road, as I said, and lighting, the street lighting, wasn’t good at all.

36 Harry Yeadon Page 37 C1379/82 Track 2

And I can remember it vividly, and we were walking down to the town where the – we met, and – and a chap, one of the boys on the other side of the road, because he lived on that side – and shouting across the road to him, saying, because they had trams on our road, ‘Are you catching the tram?’ And this boy couldn’t hear us and he started to run across the road and a car hit him, killed him. And he was – the thing I remember particularly is that, although, you know, we ran down to the local doctors, which was just down the road, and asked him to come, we didn’t know he’d died, and, erm, the – they didn’t – I didn’t get called as a – as a witness because I was a bit younger than two of the other boys, and they got called in as a witness at the – at the inquest. But it was all very tragic. And, you know, you remember things like that, don’t you? I’m sure you can remember incidents yourself. But, you know, sad.

Do you remember his name, the boy who was killed?

Yes, Taylor. Er, I can’t remember his Christian name offhand. His name was Taylor. I remember that. And his father was – was only sort of a manual worker, you know, and, er, you know, it was quite significant as far as that family were concerned. And I – purely and simply that they were on one side of the road and we were on the other, you know, but all going together to the same place. So, you know, there was no class distinction or anything like that, I’m pleased to say. Erm, yes. Sad.

[34:58]

I was wondering if you could give an idea of what – what life was like at home for you.

Yeah. Well, it was – I mean, one thing that I always remember about that period, except at night, you never locked your front door, never. The front door was always available for anybody to come in. And all the neighbours worked on the same basis, that they’d ring the bell, they’d open the door and shout, you know, ‘Are you in?’ sort of thing, of course you were. And, you know, it was quite common. And quite interesting, really, that people would be like that. And you didn’t have a key yourself, but there was always a key under a stone in the front garden [laughs]. You could get

37 Harry Yeadon Page 38 C1379/82 Track 2 in. And, oh, the other thing I remember, the milk, the milk supply, because the farms were just out of – out of town, up the hill from where we lived, and the milk floats, which were horse drawn, used to come down the road. And the road – the carriageway was set paved, by the way, in those days. And you’d hear the – you’d hear the horse’s hooves and the – and the milk float coming down, and you had a – a jug, which you left on the doorstep, front doorstep, with a saucer on the top, and they’d take the jug and fill the jug with milk out of a big kit, you know the sort of thing, and put it back there, and that was your milk supply [laughs]. We didn’t suffer from that. Oh.

Did you have any sort of regular family activities that you’d do together?

Erm, my father was never keen on – on going to watch Accrington Stanley. I don’t know why. If he wanted to watch a football match, he’d go to watch Blackburn Rovers or Burnley, and I’d go with him. That was latterly. And, er, apart from that, family activities, we – we’d go out on trips and that sort of thing, particularly going up into the Craven District of Yorkshire to see my grandmother and so on. That was a – a pretty regular occurrence on – on a Sunday. Perhaps go to church first and then go up there and have our lunch there. That was the main thing. Family holidays, the – you’ve heard of all the wakes weeks, haven’t you? Wakes weeks? Ah, well, this was a tradition from Lancashire in particular, whereby a particular week in a town – they’d have a particular week in July or August or thereabouts when all the – all the factories would close down for a week, and that was the wakes weeks, W-A-K-E-S. And – and all the shops were – would close. And my father, you know, surprisingly in those days – and he could have done more, I’m sure, only took a week’s holiday. And we never knew where we were going. And we’d set off on the Saturday morning after Friday night closedown, and we’d say, ‘Where are we going?’ And he’d say, ‘I don’t know.’ If we go up the road, it meant that we’re heading east and north, across to the east coast, you know, Scarborough or somewhere like that. And if we were going down the road, we’d probably finish up in North Wales. And we would never – in the old family car. And we would never – you would never think of going down to Cornwall or Devon or so on, it was too much of a journey, you know, in the family car. So that was our holiday. Oh, we never booked anywhere. We just went, you

38 Harry Yeadon Page 39 C1379/82 Track 2 know, the whole five of us. And there’s a story attached to that as far as Blackpool was concerned, because Blackpool, of course, grew on the wakes weeks and people would go by train, of course, to Blackpool, and occasionally they’d go by coach. And about a – a trip on the coach to Blackpool and they all went and had a good night out, and they were all walking back to the coach park and they came across one of their lot, sitting on a – a doorstep, absolutely blotto. So, oh god, we’d better get him home. So they picked him up and took him back and put him on the coach. And when they got back that evening, they unloaded him outside his house and the next morning somebody going – going along there said, ‘My word, you were in a sorry state last night,’ you know. ‘Had a hell of a job getting you home.’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The trouble was I was supposed to be there for the week’ [laughs]. Typical, I’m afraid.

What sort of things did you do in North Wales or Scarborough or whatever place?

Well, we used to – we used to swim, which was always cold [laughs]. And we’d do – we’d do all sorts of things. I can’t remember precisely. Erm, we’d do a bit of fishing, off a boat, and, erm, go to places roundabout, which were – I mean, North Wales, for example, was – I presume you – you know it reasonably well? A place – Criccieth, does that mean anything to you? We used to go to Criccieth quite often. And the thing I remember about Criccieth, in the days when Lloyd George was still alive, and seeing an open car coming along the – the front at Criccieth with Lloyd George in it and Haile Selassie from Abyssinia, who was staying with Lloyd George. And – and waving to people along the front there. So it was quite a feature, seeing Lloyd George. And of course, you know, his – his house was near there. And what else did we do? Oh, we used to go up – up in the mountains, Snowdonia and so on. And in fact, during the war, when I went on [inaud] training, going to North Wales, which was a battle training place, you know, and you had live ammunition and goodness knows what, and you were out in all sorts of weathers, you know, living rough. And – and going to places like – like that, and going up – well, part of – we didn’t go up Snowdon. We went up somewhere else. I can’t remember which it was now. But, er, you know, it took you back. And I can remember, we were travelling by train from Newark and boarding the train at Llandudno Junction to go back to Newark. And we

39 Harry Yeadon Page 40 C1379/82 Track 2 were absolutely shattered. We’d had a hell of a rough time. And, erm, and some MPs, military police, on the platform going along there – we all had our rifles and so on. And the – a military policeman picking up one of these rifles and opening the bridge of the rifle, and there was a – a round of ammunition in it, live [laughs]. There was a hell of a row about that. And somehow or other it had escaped through the net, you know, and it was – oh, it was tough going. My word, we were fit in those days. Ooh, you know, you never walked anywhere. You always ran. On we go, we never stop. Anyway, that’s another story.

[44:00]

I’ve got one or two other questions about school.

Yes.

Why did you enjoy maths?

Why did I …?

Enjoy maths?

Enjoy maths? Because it was perfectly logical and sound and it worked and, you know, it was so clear and, you know, it was, you know, it was so easy, somehow, as far as I was concerned. And I can’t understand when you hear children on television and that sort of thing, struggling with their maths. I could never understand that, how they can’t sort of somehow get to grips with it. I don’t know whether I’m unique in that respect, but mm.

I’m one of those people who doesn’t really get maths. I don’t see the attraction. I find it – how do you find it logical and straightforward? Could you explain it a little more to me, please?

40 Harry Yeadon Page 41 C1379/82 Track 2

Well, you’ve got the numeric system as a starting point. You’ve got, erm, trigonometry. Algebra, I found quite good, quite easy to follow. Those were the three – three main things, apart from getting involved with – erm, oh dear me. I’m thinking of the word now. Ah, it’ll come, I’ve no doubt. But, you know, it all sort of made sense somehow. And I found it no difficulty at all. And quite frankly, I don’t – I don’t recall anyone else finding difficulty with it. And that’s what puzzles me, the present youth you hear bleating, ‘Oh, I’m not very good at maths,’ and so on. And I don’t know what’s gone wrong there.

Had you been sort of divided into different groups for these subjects?

Not really. I don’t think so, no. I’m puzzled. But there may be – there may be a good reason. I don’t know. But it does puzzle me.

How did you do at school?

I suppose pretty well. Yes, I think I came reasonably towards the top. In fact – and I don’t know where it is, but the – my elder sister, who was at school at the same time as I was, quite older than – well, four, five years older than me, and she got the form prize and I got the form prize for the form that I was in at the same time. And what we got as a prize, and I think my nephew must have this, was a book, two volumes, the Count of Monte Cristo. You probably remember it. And she got one volume and I got the other [laughs]. Simple prizes.

[47:35]

Had you had much thought about what you wanted to do after school?

Well, er, I suppose I had in a way – because up the road from where we lived was a chap called Newton, who was the borough engineer, borough surveyor and engineer, and also there was a family that we knew quite well after his time, that’s right, a chap called Sanderson. And in the – during the vacation in 1940 – when I mentioned Speke Airfield, that was 1941. In the summer of 1940, I went, by arrangement with

41 Harry Yeadon Page 42 C1379/82 Track 2 this chap Sanderson, to work in – in his office for a month or two – a month, I suppose. And so I got to know what was going on in a borough surveyor’s office. And I did a bit of drawing work in there. That was in 1940. And he was very good was old Sanderson. His son was a bit older than me and he became an engineer. But Sanderson – as I say, he used to take me out on – on visits to places in the – in the borough. But I felt – in fact, when I came out the army, because I’d worked there for – for a month in the vacation, I could have had a job there, but I thought it was a bit mundane was borough municipal work like that. And that’s why I went – applied for this job down in – in the South West, this flood relief business. And then, of course, although I didn’t make any use of it, I knew that Jim Drake, and I knew the family, was county surveyor and bridge master, and when they applied – when they put out adverts, I thought I’d have a go at this. You know, something which was a bit broader than purely a municipal activity. And I’m glad I didn’t go in that – that route.

What sort of subjects did you see in the municipal world when you were on this vacation job?

Erm, I’m trying to think. I think we did some work on the – we had our own sewerage – our own sewage disposal plant and so on, and I remember doing something down there. And the thing that struck me, which was always pointed out, is that it was quite prolific around the area of the sewage disposal work with tomato plants. And this was arising from seeds and so on that had – had somehow got scattered from the sewage and had taken off on their own, tomatoes [laughs]. Isn’t it funny how you remember odd things like that? What else did I do? Erm … I think I did some – some copying of some drawings and so on, using the old linen drawing paper, you know. That was the thing of the day. No? Linen? Oh, you always – you always did your drawings on linen and then printed from that.

Why linen?

Well, I suppose, you know, they lasted longer and it was – it was ink, you know, black ink on linen. But the old – the old linen was very good stuff. I can remember in the county, we still worked on linen, and I used to bring bits of the stuff home. Sybil

42 Harry Yeadon Page 43 C1379/82 Track 2 thought it was great. It was really good cloth, you know, if you washed it, you washed the coating off it. And it was beautiful material. But that’s all gone now. And of course there were – barely use any paper these days anyway [laughs].

[52:40]

So if that’s how you decided to go into, I guess, civil engineering after the war, how do you decide what to do at the end of school?

Er, well, I was attracted by the – the business of civil engineering, knowing, you know, that civil engineering meant bridges, for example, and roads and other things. Oh, the other factor was – just when the war started, they built a big power station just near where we lived, and – between us and Burnley, with big cooling towers. And – and the chap who was resident engineer on the construction lived temporarily just across the road from us, and I got to know this fellow quite well. And I thought, well, you know, that’s worth doing something in a big way, you know, a couple of big cooling towers and a power station. So, you know, odd – odd little bits like that, I think were – made it attractive. But I think those – those were the main things. I didn’t know an awful lot about civil engineering at the time, precisely what they – what they did, although I’d a pretty good idea, you know, that – roads and railways and water supply and sewerage and sewage disposals. You know, I had – I had a pretty fair idea what they – what they did. And I’m glad I took that route, you know. It paid off in the end as far as I was concerned. As I say, I was very – I was very fortunate in, you know, the golden age, as I said, of civil engineering in terms of roads and bridges. And I mean, not that I was involved in some of the massive structures that are concerned.

[54:58]

But I mean, for example, I spent some time on Barton High Level Bridge, which, you probably know, carries the M62 over the Manchester Ship Canal, near Eccles, you know, that one there. And I was in effect resident engineer on that for some time. And unfortunately we had – we had a couple of serious accidents, which was

43 Harry Yeadon Page 44 C1379/82 Track 2 interesting in itself. And this was – the first one, I wasn’t on the site at the time. I hadn’t joined it. And that was due to the use of tubular steel scaffolding, which was – it wasn’t long after the war, of course, and it was shown to be corroded inside the tubes, and it failed. And there were a couple of men killed on that one. Now the second one, which I was involved with, and this was due to the fact that the – the main contractor, who was a Lancashire firm, and they appointed a steelwork subcontractor from Yorkshire, who were very well known, very competent. And they unfortunately appointed a lot of steel erectors from Liverpool. And Liverpool, of course, had a shocking reputation in those days for labour troubles in the construction industry. A lot of contractors wouldn’t – wouldn’t go near Liverpool, it was so bad. And they appointed these steel contractors and it was said that – I don’t know whether this is true, the – the chap who made the tea for this outfit was an older man and was an absolute communist who’d served in the Spanish civil war, you know, that sort of thing. And they took the – this subcontractor to the cleaners in terms of – they would decide when they were going to work or not and – er, and they always negotiated deals in terms of – if they got so much steel up in the air, erected and in place, then they would get a particular type of bonus. And it was like that. And we were – we were told – well, more than told, we were instructed not to get involved in this sort of thing, because, of course, they were subcontractors and we’d no contract with them. It was the main contractor who was responsible. And, er, things got out of hand. And I was very concerned about this because steelwork, major units, girders and so on, going up in the air and no proper bracing being put in – and of course the bracing holding the thing together up there. Fortunately I did the right thing in the sense that I marched into the agent’s office, the contractors, and I said, ‘Look, you know, this is just not good enough. You’ve got to do something about this.’ And – and he agreed to write a letter, a formal letter, to them, pointing this out, that there was concern among the – the client – we were the clients, you see – about what was going on. And unfortunately in the middle of all this lot, the subcontractors, as I say, who’d been taken to the cleaners, went bust. And so the main contractor had to bring in another contractor, not Liverpool at all, and – a well known firm. And they came over from – from Yorkshire. And unfortunately – and they didn’t attempt to contact us and say, ‘Look, what’s the …?’ I knew more about the condition of the job than anyone else apart from those people directly concerned. And, erm – and they started – there were

44 Harry Yeadon Page 45 C1379/82 Track 2 four main girders on the top of a pier, right on the edge of the canal. And these, er, girders had been there and been jacked into position to get them accurately placed and so on. And the jacks were there. And these stupid people came on and the first thing they did – and I could have put them in the picture easily, was to get some advice and then only jack one at a time. Instead of which, they jacked the whole lot, four massive steel girders, because the jacks were already in position when the firm went bust. And four men were killed, which was very unfortunate. And it was interesting in the sense that the inquest – and I spent days in the witness box there about all this lot because it became the – and the – it was before the health and safety legislation as we know it now. It was with the old Factories Acts. And they realised that there was a missing link, if you like, within those – that legislation. And that inquest was – there was an observer there from government viewing this, and as a result of that the present health and safety legislation in the construction industry developed and so on. But it was a bit of a traumatic experience, to say the least.

[1:01:30]

And fortunately the – of course the county council were the client, and Jim Drake, who was the engineer to the contract – and he and I had to appear in front of the committee and explain what had – well, before that was interesting, because although he was a tough character, and he actually was living in Blackpool at the time, and he got hold of me and he phoned me up and said, ‘Will you come over to Blackpool?’ It was over the Christmas holiday period, New Year holiday period. And I went over there and he said, ‘Oh, we’re all going out for lunch. Come and have lunch with us,’ which I did – well, before that. And I told him the story as I saw it, which of course he hadn’t – he hadn’t realised and didn’t – didn’t know what had been happening between the main contractor and the subcontractor as such in detail. And full marks to him. And he said, ‘Well, you know what do you say? It wasn’t your fault or anything like that.’ And – but, as I say, I could have been at risk of getting the push, you know, ‘cause it was a very serious situation. But it was all to do with Liverpool steel erectors, which I shall never forget [laughs].

[1:03:00]

45 Harry Yeadon Page 46 C1379/82 Track 2

Working, you know, in the sort of occupation where things – where things like that can go wrong –

Yes.

Is it something that weighs on your mind?

Er, well, only in the sense that you’ve got to be careful and you’ve got to ensure that the people working for you are conscious of the dangers of liabilities. And, you know, we’ve had odd incidents on other contracts, where people have been injured and killed. It’s not unusual, unfortunately, in the construction industry. Even simple thing of somebody falling off a ladder, you know. But no, I wouldn’t say it was on my mind. But what – what annoys me, quite frankly, in the present financial climate and with these damn bankers getting away with murder. And say, ‘Look, you know, if you’re in the sort of profession that I’ve been in, and the risks and liabilities, potential liabilities, attached, you know, you would behave perhaps a bit better and you wouldn’t take – take risks.’ Risks in the financial markets are just as serious as a – as a risk, particularly in the construction industry. But I learnt a lot. But I mean, there are certain – certain things, when you’re involved in the supervision of construction, simple things – and nobody’s been able to answer the question properly for me. The contractor is laying a drain and he digs a trench, and he doesn’t put in any support to the sides of the trench, because he thinks the ground is – is stable enough. And you go along, you’re on the supervisory stuff, and you say, ‘I don’t like that,’ particularly if you’ve had some – some experience, ‘I don’t like that. You want to get some support in there in the way of timbering and so on.’ And if the contractor turns to you and says, ‘Right, tell me what you want me to do,’ then you’re in trouble, because if you do and then something goes wrong, you’re liable because you’ve instructed him to do things in a certain way. And the only – the only answer, really – and the health and safety people, when they first got into business, would not become proactive, and this always concerned me. They’d be reactive in the sense that if an accident occurred, they’d be on the scene and doing a – an investigation as to what went wrong. But to get a health and safety inspector to come along and say, ‘Look,

46 Harry Yeadon Page 47 C1379/82 Track 2 you know, you are independent. Nothing to do with the contractor obligations. Do something about it’ – and, you know, this is the sort of problem that can so easily arise. But – so I’m very conscious of it and, you know, I’ve never been able to advise chaps working for me how to deal with a situation like that, apart from reporting it right up the ladder to the top and going along to the, you know, almost at director level and saying, ‘Look, you know, somebody’s at risk here. You’ve got to do something about it or somebody’s going to get – get hurt.’ You know, comparatively simple things like that. Of course there are – there are much greater risks, particularly with – with the major construction, like I mentioned, with a steel bridge and – and no proper bracing in it, you know. Terrible. Anyway, the ship canal was put out of use. Er, it was all a bit dodgy. But I must say, we got on with the – the ship canal company people very well in the circumstances.

[1:07:28]

I was wondering as well – I guess you’ve talked a little bit about what attracted you to civil engineering.

Yes.

But I was wondering how – when you left school, what you decided to do next?

Erm, well, of course, I suppose, you know, the war had started and I fully anticipated that I would finish up in the services in some form or other. That was to be expected. So I wasn’t looking for a job at the time. I wasn’t in a position because I wasn’t in any way qualified until I got my degree. But it was interesting that – it might seem a bit odd, with all this business of training and one day a week and all that sort of business and weekend exercises, etc – and then, after I’d graduated – and the authorities, of course, were following it up, and I was told I could get a job as a – in – a civilian job, not a military job. It was ridiculous [laugh]. And I said, ‘No way.’ I said, ‘I’ve been training for this for a long time.’ And several other of us, you know, we – we said, ‘No, damn it all, you know. That’s what we’ve trained for.’ And we

47 Harry Yeadon Page 48 C1379/82 Track 2 could have kept out of it, as it so happened [laughs]. You might say we were stupid, but I suppose, you know, it was there.

Where did you do your degree?

Manchester.

How did you decide to go there?

Erm, I suppose because UMIST, of course, they had a history of – of – I suppose you’d call it day release training, people that were on articles, which of course did apply before the war, if you remember. Rather than people taking degrees, they entered into articles with a local consulting engineer or a local authority and so on and went – went from there. And so it had a history of that. And it applied also in the – in the legal profession, by the way, of – I knew quite a few budding solicitors that used to go up to – to Manchester one day a week, something of that order. And of course they did their homework and they took – they took exams, which were external to the university, anyway, you know, the professional bodies exams. Er, so, you know, some very good chaps came up that way. We used to call it, you know, the hard way. And it was the hard way because, you know, they were expected to work fulltime and yet do all their studying, if you like, in the evenings, etc, etc. So it was, it was the hard way, as distinct from going in for a degree.

[1:10:50]

What did you study?

What did I study? Well, everything to do with civil engineering, I suppose. Structures, erm, theory of structures, strength of materials. Those are two basic items. Building, er, we had sessions on that. Erm, well, structures involved bridges, for example, particularly, and you were allowed to select a particular subject in your last year for doing – almost like doing a thesis in a way, and I elected to – to go for a bridge. So you actually designed it from first principles. It was all theoretical, of

48 Harry Yeadon Page 49 C1379/82 Track 2 course, and do the basic drawings for it. So, you know, it was a good grounding in that sense. And the – I must say, the lecturers were – were very good at UMIST. And, erm, I mean, the only – the only thing, I suppose, that I missed was the fact that going off in the army and being away, you know, out of – for five years, you know, normally you would have been using that five years having got your degree, taking it forward. And of course you weren’t in a position to do that. So there was – there was something missing there, and so you had to pick up on your own in terms of – of getting more experience and so on and – and then taking it through the professional bodies, which – which of course is what I did, the Institution of Civil Engineers. And there was also another institution, the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers, who combined later on under one – one banner, one wing.

So did you actually study a civil engineering degree then? Was that the subject or …?

Yes, it was – it had a municipal bent in a way because it had this – as I say, the association with the part time people going in. So, you know, there was the – the municipal bent rather. But, as I think I mentioned before, we did actually attend lectures down in – in Owens, where – that was a bit like the Oxford-Cambridge – the Oxbridge thing of having a tripos of – of, er, different types of engineering. You know, you’d do – you’d do civil, mechanical and electrical in some form or other before you decided which avenue to follow.

[1:14:20]

It’s unfortunate that Lancaster University, which was a new university – and the chap who was appointed prof there, who I got to know quite well, who was actually a – a civil engineer. And he attempted to follow the Oxbridge principle and I don’t think it – it worked because, if you like, it was a second level university in those days. It did improve, of course, Lancaster, but it was – it wasn’t of that standard initially, and therefore I don’t think it was the right thing, to be talking about a tripos, because you needed very high – well, as Oxford and Cambridge would say, you know, high quality students to be able to cope with a tripos, I believe. I’ve no experience of it directly. But would I be right, do you think?

49 Harry Yeadon Page 50 C1379/82 Track 2

I didn’t do well. I wouldn’t know [laughs].

You see what I’m – I’m getting at, you know, with –

A different approach to education.

Yes. Spending your first year, or possibly two years, on – on all three things, and not being specialist in one until you got to your final year. And I think we found this, in my department, recruiting people from – from Lancaster, they’re – I mean, they were good chaps, they matured and did very well, but they – they weren’t of the calibre of somebody coming from, say, Manchester or Liverpool or, you know, the established universities, if I can use that term. Not necessarily Oxbridge, although we did have the odd Oxbridge chap coming in.

[1:16:20]

So you’d already decided to actually study civil engineering before the war started then, just so I’ve got the –

Yes, yes. Yes, indeed. The – and, you know, the – the chaps who were of the same ilk, you know, did pretty well in their own fields. Erm, I’m trying to think of anybody in particular. Well, the chap on that book, the motorway book, Dai Evans. He – he was an ex UMIST man, and he, through the road construction unit, became a civil servant and became regional director down in the South East, with a big programme of motorway stuff. Unfortunately he had a stroke earlier – earlier this year. And his wife and son brought him up to see me, actually, some weeks ago. But he could understand what you were saying but he’d lost his speech. He’d no other physical disability but – tragic, really. But, you know, he did very well. But not in my year, he was younger. I’m trying to think of others. I can’t think offhand.

Did you consider anywhere else apart from –

50 Harry Yeadon Page 51 C1379/82 Track 2

Sorry?

Did you consider going anywhere else apart from UMIST?

Not really at the time. I suppose I could have done, but I didn’t. And – and for what it was worth, of course, being pretty close, I lived at home, you see. I’d no –I could have gone into a hall. Were you in a hall when you were there? Which one?

I was in Whitworth Park.

Ah.

But I don’t think that was there in 1940 [laughs].

No, I can’t remember it.

It’s new build. It’s not one of the originals.

That’s right. But of course, a hall was pretty tight because some of the halls of residence were being used by service people and other – so, you know, very difficult to get a place in hall. But I was quite happy to travel. I travelled by – by train or bus from home.

How did you get funding for it? How was it paid for?

What, the …?

The course.

Erm, I think I had to pay. I think so. No, there was no scholarship or anything like that. I think we paid. My father was quite happy to – well, I wouldn’t say he was happy, but [laughs] he agreed to pay. So I had to behave myself.

51 Harry Yeadon Page 52 C1379/82 Track 2

What did your parents make of you going to university?

Well, they were quite pleased, you know, that I was following that line. And the fact that they, you know, they knew people in that field, as I say. I mentioned that fellow Sanderson, for example. They thought it was a – a good profession to be involved in. And I, quite frankly, and I can’t remember drawing attention to it, but I felt that – that the environment of a big works like Howard and Bullough, with oil all over the place and smell and so on – don’t like the idea. I’d rather have the job that took you outside. I can remember feeling that way, quite frankly. I wasn’t into mechanical engineering, which it largely was, of course. And I don’t know whether I regretted it or not. In the circumstances, because the industry was declining, it probably – and they merged with another firm in the same business in the Manchester area. I’ve forgotten its name now. But, you know, it declined rapidly, so I probably did the best thing in not going into that line of business, which would have been essentially mechanical engineering.

Had your father been to university?

My father? No. Oh no, no. He – he learnt his business as an apprentice and – and took it from there, which of course was – was not unusual.

[1:21:05]

I was wondering if you could describe to me what being at UMIST was like in I guess about 1939, 1940?

Erm, it was – it was very interesting, apart from the fact that the war was on. And we used to do a fire watch duty every – once a week. And they used to get camp beds out in the union and blankets and sleep there. And if the sirens went, we went up on the – on the roof and, you know, buckets and spades and so on. But apart from that – and of course Manchester was getting bombed. I remember coming off the – off the train, I used to go into Victoria Station, it was not a long journey at all. And of course the centre of Manchester, you know, where Piccadilly Gardens are and so on, you know,

52 Harry Yeadon Page 53 C1379/82 Track 2 that was an absolute shambles. And, you know, it was – that was happening almost every night. And I suppose, it’s fortunate in a way that we – we weren’t in the centre of Manchester. So in that sense it was – it was the best thing to be doing. But it was – it wasn’t the best environment to be studying, really, when you think about it, but we – we coped. And I like to think that there was no lowering in standards. The prof of the department, a chap called Cornish, was an excellent fellow and he’d served in the first war, and very, very encouraging chap. He had a daughter who came to live in St Anne’s and I remember him coming over and staying there and we went round and had coffee with him. And – and he was quite friendly with the vicar of St Cuthbert’s church along here, because he’d been, er, resident in one of the halls of residence, I can’t remember which one, before he – he became local vicar, yeah. So Cornish and he were quite friendly. They were good chaps.

Are there any lecturers you remember in particular from UMIST?

Erm, there was a chap, a little round fellow [ph]. I’ve forgotten his name now, the strength of materials man. Oh, I can’t remember. He was good. And the building – the building fellow, he was excellent as well. Erm, theory of structures, well, Cornish used to take that himself, largely, and – and he was good. Yes, the two basics like that, theory of – theory of structures and strength of materials were – were fundamental to the – to the whole course.

What made those people good lecturers, in your opinion?

Er, experience, I think, and, yeah, a willingness to help people forward. And, you know, they – they were very easy to get on with. And I think that was one of the main factors, you know, they weren’t standoffish and so on and you could always go and have a word – a chat with them about a particular issue which you weren’t clear about. And I think that was a fundamental characteristic. I don’t know whether that is fairly common now as it was in those days. I don’t know. Perhaps the – the numbers are very much bigger, of course, and I think this was a factor. I mean, in our year, I think there were only about twenty, something like that, if that. And so you could – you could have a personal relationship with a lecturer on a particular aspect,

53 Harry Yeadon Page 54 C1379/82 Track 2 subject. No, it was – it was good, even though, you know, we had these distractions [laughs], like bombs and things. Oh. How are we for time, by the way?

I think we should probably think about wrapping up for the day.

What time’s your …?

It’s about fifteen minutes, so ...

Really?

That’s quite good timing.

Right. Have you covered what you intended trying to cover? Right.

I think this is about the point I expected us to reach.

Really?

Yeah.

I’ve no doubt you’ll think of other things.

When I go through my notes afterwards, I always notice things I’ve jotted down but forgot to ask about, so we can pick up with those next week. But otherwise thank you very much, Harry.

[1:26:15]

By the way, the M55 out to the Fylde coast, I don’t know whether you’re aware of this, it’s in – it’s in that motorway book. There were three railway lines originally to Blackpool, and of course railways declined in terms of use. The northern line, which went to – from Preston through Kirkham Poulton [ph] and so on, into what’s

54 Harry Yeadon Page 55 C1379/82 Track 2

Blackpool North, was maintained. The other two closed down. But what we did, we built a road along the embankment of the southern line – sorry, the middle line, which had become redundant – not the line you were on, the middle of the three. And they decided that after it was done – it was a tricky job, I won’t go into detail now – it should be described as Yeadon Way. And in fact there are [laughs] – there are signs, Yeadon Way. But the odd thing about it was that soon after the thing was completed – it was completed after I retired, but never mind. And somebody decided to build a pub at the end of it and so they called it Yeadon Way. So there is a pub called Yeadon Way at the end of [laughs] – end of Yeadon Way. And I get my leg pulled mercifully about this [laughs].

What do you feel about being honoured in such ways, with a road and a pub?

What do I feel about it? I don’t mind, but you get your leg pulled occasionally. I think the odd thing about this – this road – and I don’t know – mustn’t take time. It was on – basically on embankment, which was tricky anyway because railway embankments are not very stable anyway, putting a road on, and there was property immediately alongside, which of course had grown up over the years, after the line had closed. And so we put noise barriers along the edge of this – this road. And one day I went to a dinner in Blackpool soon after it opened, and the fellow, quoting the fact that I was there, said that a woman at one of these properties had phoned me up one day and said, ‘Look, the noise from traffic on – on this Yeadon Way is appalling. You’d better come out and have a listen.’ So I said, ‘Alright, I’ll come out.’ So I went out there. And she said, ‘Well, of course, you’ve got to come upstairs to hear all this, you know.’ Went into her bedroom. So I went upstairs and standing, looking out the window. She said, ‘Well, of course, it’s worse when the coaches come through and the buses along this road.’ And at that point the woman’s husband walked in and said, ‘What the Dickens is going on, you know, you in my wife’s bedroom?’ And I reputedly turned and said, ‘Well, I just happened to be waiting for a bus.’ [Laughs] Come on. How’s that for a leg pull?

[End of Track 2]

55 Harry Yeadon Page 56 C1379/82 Track 3

Track 3

Harry, I was wondering if we could talk for a little bit more about UMIST, and I was wondering if there were any subjects in particular that you enjoyed there?

I think probably structures and strength of materials. They were two quite important subjects, obviously. And it was interesting that the prof of the department found himself involved in trying to sort out, on a consultancy basis, some of the bridges which had been, well, seriously damaged as a result of the bombing in the – during that early period, the early ‘40s. And those were the two perhaps most interesting. Of course, we covered things like drainage, water supply, sewage disposal, erm, you name it.

What’s actually involved in structures as a subject?

Well, erm, the old problem of steel versus concrete, particularly on – on bridges. Bearing in mind, the construction difficulties and also future maintenance, because if you’ve got a steel bridge you’ve got to paint it, as simple as that. And of course, it was in the period where the use of concrete was changing and developing rapidly, with pre-stressed concrete coming in, whereas steel, of course, had been traditional for quite a long time, in railway bridges, for example.

How does a subject like structures actually get taught? Is it practical? Are there lectures? Do you do calculations? What’s actually involved in learning about it?

Well, it’s – it’s essentially calculations, mathematical problems in a way. But obviously you had to know the strength of materials, so they’re closely associated. But the important thing, of course, was what was the loading you were designing for, because that had been changing over the years as haulage vehicles, for example, on a road bridge, had got larger, heavier and traffic volumes were increasing, even – even before the war, rapidly increasing. And particular problems in Lancashire, some of the bridges were quite old. So it was really choice of type of structure you were going for, and particularly in relation to where you’ve got a complex crossing of some kind.

56 Harry Yeadon Page 57 C1379/82 Track 3

The length of spans and number of spans you would be designing for, bearing in mind those particular aspects.

[03:45]

And I could talk at length about, for example, Samlesbury Bridge, which is – carries Preston Bypass over the Ribble, to the east of Preston. And various options looked at, ‘cause the Ribble wasn’t all that wide, but we finished up with three – a three span bridge, and in fact a steel box girder bridge. And you’re probably aware of the steel box girder problem, which I could speak on at length. But it so happened that at that time, when it was designed – I wasn’t personally involved in the design but I was involved in the supervision of construction. But the – several serious accidents, not only in this country but also abroad, but they were mainly during construction, because of the – the boxes tended to be quite flexible in themselves and not enough stiffness in the – in the box during construction. That was mainly the cause. But it led to certain steel box girder bridges being reduced in – in carrying capacity, in the sense that the – if it was three lanes then you closed a lane and carried on with two lanes, and if it was only a two lane bridge, obviously you were cutting down there. And an investigation was carried out, high level thing. And as it turned out, although there were no codes of practice or anything like that, Samlesbury Bridge, the first motorway bridge, didn’t need to have any strengthening done at all, which was quite remarkable, because all the others following these – this investigation and the checks that were carried out, had to be strengthened. And so that was – that was one thing that James Drake and the department could be very proud of.

[06:20]

You sort of raised sort of an issue there about almost the – the end use of things like bridges and structures. How much was that actually part of the university course? Were they just telling you how to build things in practical terms or were you thinking as well –

57 Harry Yeadon Page 58 C1379/82 Track 3

Oh no, you were given an opportunity, certainly in the – in the last year of the three year course, of having – selecting a project, which you wished to be involved in in detail, and to carry out the whole process of design and preparing – preparing drawings. So it was very practical in that sense. And the prof was very much a structures man anyway. But the other senior lecturers, of course, were highly – highly competent.

Was there any social life attached to being at university at UMIST?

Oh, very much so. And for my sins, I was president of the athletic union within UMIST, captain of the soccer team, because I was brought up on soccer, although I became a rugby player later on in my life [laughs]. So there was a social life in that sense. But, erm, of course, the bombing was still carrying on and – I may have mentioned this to you before, we used to have to do a stint of fire watching, usually one night a week. And we’d sleep in the – in the union common room and if the sirens went we had to go up on the – on the roof of the building, because the technique, as you probably know – the Germans would come in with incendiary bombs first and highlight – well, literally highlight the targets for the bombers to come in later. So the principle was, you’ve got to put those incendiary bombs out, which were very much scattered. And so that was one of the things that we had to do.

Did you actually put any incendiary bombs out?

I think we did on the odd occasion, yes. Yes, I think we did. You know, we had – erm, what did they call them? I’m trying to remember. The pumps in a bucket of water, you know, spray on the things and sand bags and – etc, etc. But scrambling up on the roof of UMIST in the – in the dark [laughs] wasn’t a very pleasant occasion. But they used to give us an allowance so we could go somewhere for breakfast in the morning.

What do you think you got out of the course at UMIST, personally?

58 Harry Yeadon Page 59 C1379/82 Track 3

Oh, quite a lot, because I made quite a few – a few very good friends. Erm, and I think it was – I didn’t get a first class honours degree. I got a top second, which I was quite satisfied with. And in the circumstances, because of the interruptions in studies and various things, I think – did I tell you about having to do one day’s training a week? No? In the – when it got to the – towards the end of your degree course, when you were subject to call up for service, you had an option. If you were prepared to join the senior training corps, which was really the follow on from the OTC, then you had this one day training, with regular instructors and regular officers conducting it. And it was highly efficient. You know, it wasn’t a sort of half hearted thing. And we became extremely proficient as infantrymen after doing that for a year. So we used to go to – go in there in uniform and by the end of the – the degree course, you got your degree and you’d also – were highly – highly proficient, so that you then found yourself involved in interviews as a prospective officer and went off to Chatham.

[11:44]

Now that was quite interesting, because Chatham was the School of Military Engineering, apart from anything else, and headquarters, if you like, of the Royal Engineers. And the – that’s right. I’m trying to think of the point I was going to mention. Erm, oh yes, the unit put in charge of us were quite puzzled by the fact that they’d got a load of graduates landed on their doorstep [laughs] and they were hard bitten – hard bitten regular soldiers who’d come back from – had been in Gibraltar before the war and they’d come back to the UK. And they just couldn’t understand it at all. And [laughs] – but, oh, it was – it was highly efficient, I must say, in terms of training.

Why couldn’t they understand you?

Well, you know, we queried the way that things had been done, you know. For example, you might find a – a regular sapper teaching how to tie knots. And I always remember this one – ‘a boat line is used for lowering a man up a well’ [laughs]. [Inaud] anyway, you know. But apart from that, they were pretty good. But the OCTU itself, the pre OCTU, was out on the marshes at, erm, Dartford, and of course

59 Harry Yeadon Page 60 C1379/82 Track 3 the bombers used to come in that way anyway. We were in an old – erm, just dumped in an old isolation hospital, no beds. We were sleeping on the floor, a few blankets and that sort of thing. So, you know, we weren’t being looked after at all. The reverse applied. They thought they had to be tough. And then there was another pre OCTU out in Kent, a place called Wrotham, and that was a bit hilly. And the – the message there was, on we go, we never stop. And you ran everywhere you went. You never – you never walked or marched, you ran. We were as fit as fiddles, really. And although I’d driven a car, my father’s car, before I went in the – in the army – so I was reasonably competent in that sense. So I could drive a car, drive a small truck without difficulty, but I’d never ridden a motorcycle. And so they put you in a field on a motorcycle and said, ‘There you are. Carry on.’ And that was – that was the basic training [laughs]. Hence – hence I had an accident with a convoy near Basingstoke and finished up with a month in – a month in hospital. And it was because I was completely naïve as far as riding a motorcycle on a wet road in the middle of winter. Anyway.

What happened?

What?

What happened?

I finished up under the front axle of a lorry. But fortunately I had so much clothing on, and a crash helmet, that I wasn’t sort of cut to pieces or anything like that. But I damaged my – one of my knees between the bike and the road, and that was the cause of the problem. But there was an interesting sequence to that, but I would be boring you with anecdotal stuff.

No, please.

But I had to go – I was in hospital in Aldershot and I had to go to – after that, go for treatment. And I remember the physiotherapist coming in for this treatment and she put me under a cage, which had heaters inside. And she said, ‘Now give it a really

60 Harry Yeadon Page 61 C1379/82 Track 3 good cooking,’ and went away. And it kept getting hotter and hotter. And eventually she came back and she was quite worried because she said, ‘Well, you’re the first chap that’s sat there and let himself burn.’ And I had a scar on my knee. She was quite worried. But I was alright, I recovered. And then I went abroad I was thrown out in – in Italy, and I came – am I alright carrying on like this?

[16:40]

I was going to say, I’ve got one or two other questions about, well, your training actually, before we got to Italy. What actually happens on an OCTU?

Well, this, of course, was a Royal Engineers OCTU, so you were essentially concerned with engineering matters as far as the army was concerned. I mean, the main thing, again, structures. The Bailey bridge had just come into – come into use. The Bailey bridge, does that mean anything to you? Oh, well, this was a superb design of a bridge that you could erect and launch, er, using purely manpower, without any cranage or anything like that. And it was basically, erm, panels, which you could connect together. The panels were – erm, yeah, I think they were ten feet long, something like that, and they were connected with pins. And you could have as many as you like in terms of making up a long structure and so on, so there were various standard designs for these things. And the launching technique was to put a – start off with a launching nose, because of getting the balance right as you launched out over – over a river, for example. And so you prepared a base for the thing to – to ultimately sit on and rollers were on that, further back. So as you launched forward, you added further sections, with a launching nose on the front. And then you, if you like, designed it, but it was quite easy, the length of the launching nose to get you over to the other side. The launching nose, of course, was using the same equipment but quite light, and eventually you touched down and then you could build up from that, ‘cause you’d got over to the other side. And you had a decking of steel joists across the width of the Bailey, which was only one vehicle width, of course, and then a timber decking on top of that. And this was – became standard throughout the whole of – well, not only in Europe but Far East as well. And it was designed by a chap called Bailey. That was why it was called a Bailey bridge.

61 Harry Yeadon Page 62 C1379/82 Track 3

What’s a launching nose?

Well, the launching nose was – was using the same panels, same connectors, sticking out at front, but only, of course, one – one truss thick on either side, whereas the main bridge, of course, would – would have, in some cases, perhaps two or three trusses side by side. And the launching nose was quite light. Once it was over the other side you took it off, of course. And then you jacked down the – as the main bridge came over, you jacked that down onto the base on the other side that you’d managed to get across and construct. Highly effective, highly efficient, a key factor, I might say, during the war. The Americans used it but they weren’t – they were being unfair. They weren’t sufficiently – erm, how can I put it – aware of the techniques of building like that. And they used them – they got cranage in, in most cases, and – and they built the thing and then lifted it in – lifted it into place, rather than the technique of a launching that we were doing. And, of course, you – you got very competent at this. You could – you could build a bridge at night in the dark and so on. And a panel of – of the bridge, which was about ten feet long and so on, lattice form of angular steel, and it needed six men to lift a panel, and you lifted a panel by having lifting bars, which you fed through the – the lattice, if you like. And you got it under your arm like that and you were – ‘everybody, up.’ And you could carry – six of you could carry one of these things. My word, we were fit in those days [laughs]. So that was basically the technique. But the Americans, they couldn’t be bothered about that sort of thing. I don’t want to – don’t quote me on this [laughs].

We can always lock it away if needs be [laughs].

But they had their own bridging equipment anyway apart from that, but where they were using Bailey – so we were very much involved in the early days of building bridges by Bailey.

How big a river can you actually span?

62 Harry Yeadon Page 63 C1379/82 Track 3

Well, erm … on a single span, you could – the standard would be about eighty feet, something like that, for a small crossing. But you could, by putting piers in, intermediate piers, have it more than one span, of course, and so you can – you can have a multi-span bridge in Bailey. And in fact, on the very wide ones, there was a floating Bailey and this was floating on pontoons, which were brought up, and the Bailey spanned from pontoon to pontoon. So you’d have quite a long bridge – I could show you a photograph, actually. I’ve got one upstairs of the – came across in the – erm, the war museum in London. And this was across the Po.

[23:35]

Because eventually I finished up with the – I’m jumping ahead a bit – in the Eighth Army, and we were on the – in Italy, we were on the east side and the Fifth Army, which was essentially the Americans – oh, by the way, when I talk about we, I’m not talking purely Brits. We had all sorts of people, Indians, Indian divisions, Canadians, New Zealanders and so on, all within the Eighth Army, Fifth Army. And they had even units from Brazil. Anyway, so there was a clear – clear division in a way between the Eighth Army on the – on the east and the Fifth Army on the west.

Did you get much use out of Bailey bridges in your time in Italy?

Oh, oh, yes. Yes, indeed. But the – the other development, which I became involved in later on when I went out there, was an armoured engineer regiment, because essentially the unit I joined – I wasn’t in North Africa or in the desert, but it was a very experienced unit, which I joined. And, er, they’d done all sorts of things, to some extent using Bailey. Mine clearing particularly, of course, was a very important task. But up in – in the northern part of Italy, particularly across the Po valley – do you know Italy at all? Ah, well, of course a lot of – up to the Po and the estuary going out into the Adriatic, and a lot of water courses there, essentially concerned with – with agriculture. So you finished – you had a lot of water courses held in by flood banks on either side. And the difficulty was getting a tank across it, you see, because the flood bank was a nuisance in the first place, but you could blast that out of the way, and then you were left with a deep water course and another flood bank on the

63 Harry Yeadon Page 64 C1379/82 Track 3 other side. And the – the armoured engineer regiment was concerned with what were known as ARKs and AVREs. Now an ARK was a Churchill tank, in fact there was a piece about Churchill tanks on television the other day, with the top taken off, the turret taken off. And at the front of the – the tank and at the rear, you had a big sort of platform, like a wing sticking out, so you knocked the flood banks out of the way, then you went in with the Churchill tank with the top off, dropped it in the – into the water course, and then you ran – tanks could run over on the top of it to get across, you know. They weren’t – weren’t very wide, but highly effective method. And of course, the – the important thing about this was the – the Germans, of course, knew we had this equipment, this specialist equipment. And of course, as you probably appreciate, in a forward area [ph], the – the enemy is always trying to find out where the other side are, you know, particularly where you haven’t got unlimited resources. And so the – they had their ears to the ground, in a way, picking up information in messages being passed by radio. They could do this. And what they were trying to do, so we were told, and I couldn’t prove whether it was true or not, identifying units by the voices of the people that were speaking messages. So we were trained two ways, to try and avoid an accent. In fact, in a way you might say I lost my accent, Lancashire accent, to some extent. And also, of course, er, you had to keep to the standard way of speaking and passing messages. And of course most of them were in – in code, a form of code. But allegedly the Germans could identify that you – you and your unit were at a certain place at a certain time and therefore they might know that you were going to put in a – an attack in a certain area. And so this was quite critical in terms of keeping – keeping – because it was very evident, this equipment, from the air. You could see it from the air, if they did that. But they didn’t know quite where we were, because we were always – camouflaged nets and that sort of thing, if we were static. So that was quite an interesting business.

[29:25]

Can we talk a little bit more about, I guess, the training you had before going out to Italy? I was interested in the Chatham School of Military Engineering. What sort of place was it?

64 Harry Yeadon Page 65 C1379/82 Track 3

School of Military Engineering? Oh, well established, of course, from – Chatham had been there as a base for, ooh – and the museums there. I suppose it must have been there since ... certainly beginning of the eighteenth century, I should think, in some form or other. But of course, quite primitive equipment, etc. Some of the equipment, which was pre-war, was still – still in use. And so, you know, we trained in that. As far as mine clearance was concerned, one of the things we were trained to do was to – how to make a mine safe. You were using various methods, of course, you know. There were the sweepers. You’ve probably seen, you know, a chap with a thing on his – on his back –

Metal detectors?

Er, and being able to detect steel in front of him, you know. It is like a –

Metal detector?

Sorry?

Metal detector?

Yes, exactly. But of course, the Germans got used to this so they went off steel and the basic antipersonnel mines were – were wood, with a charge inside, of course, a detonator, which was – the only way you could detect those was prodding ahead with your bayonet [ph], you know, in front of you to get a path. So, you know, it’s quite a dangerous exercise. So you were trained to – to be able to do this in – in the dark. And of course this had – this was very evident in North Africa, you know, where the – a lot of mines were used by both sides. And so that was a very important aspect. Erm, yeah.

What’s the difference between military and civil engineering?

Erm, well, the basics are the same in terms of structures. I mean, obviously in normal civil engineering, you’re not involved with [laughs] mines, but occasionally you find

65 Harry Yeadon Page 66 C1379/82 Track 3 yourself involved in the use of explosives, erm, which we did on – on the M6 when you were – you were going through the rock. And you were – you were trying to get down to a reasonable level in the rock, so explosives were used for that purpose rather than compressor tools. But the structural aspects of it, of course, were very similar. And of course you’ve got to be able to have an eye for the ground, particularly – I talked about putting down a base for the Bailey to sit on. You’ve got to be able to design that, depending on where you were. And obviously the ideal, if you came across it, if the – a bridge in the centre of a village or a town had been demolished by the Germans retreating, then of course the – the road was there leading up to the bridge on both sides, so it was very easy there because you got a good base to work on and comparatively easy. But if – if there wasn’t such a facility and you were out in – in the open country, of course you’ve got to be able to look at the ground and say, look, we want to put a grillage in – and by grillage, using timber. Erm, so you – you’d lay a pattern of timbers that way and that way and that becomes your grillage.

Crossing over each other?

Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So you’ve got something there to – for it to sit on and distribute the – the load, and then put the standard quite hefty base plate, which was part of the kit, on top of this. And you could put your – not only your rollers in that for rolling forward as you launched, but also you could put the permanent – they were semi-permanent basing for the bridge to be able to sit on after the roller had been taken out. The roller didn’t stay in, of course. So you had big jacks. So you jacked up, took the roller out, put a base plate in and so on. So it was – it was good sort of practical sense, really, which an engineering background, of course, helps with.

Why do you have to look at the ground from this? What are you looking for and why?

Well, you don’t want to be – if you’re on the edge of a – a river in an area where there’s sort of soft clay or even, erm, moss, that sort of thing, you know, you’ve got to have it – have the thing sitting on something firm, and therefore you’ve got to identify where you’re going to put it and what you need to do to stabilise it, to sit the thing on. So you’ve got to have an eye for that. And this is important in terms of a

66 Harry Yeadon Page 67 C1379/82 Track 3 reconnaissance, which is vital, of course. And getting somebody across the river – well, certainly you’ve got to be able to – to measure the – the width of the structure you’re going to build and you’ve got to be – so that you can call up all the equipment.

[36:10]

In fact, it’s an interesting story, if I can deviate slightly. But you did ask me last time we met about close friends. Now I had a close friend and when I was at UMIST, he was at Owens and he was doing engineering as well. And he elected – he didn’t go in for this training once a week. He was in hall actually in – I’ve forgotten which hall it was, once of the halls of residence, at Manchester.

What was his name?

John Foulds, F-O-U-L-D-S, John Foulds. And John and I were quite good friends, in more ways than one, as I’ll mention, and he decided – you could – you do that, go – join one day’s training, or you could become a very intensive member of the ARP, air raid precautions, one or the other. Didn’t make any difference, you were committed. And so John decided that he wasn’t going to go through the same sequence that we did, because they were asking for volunteers to go out to India, join the Indian army as engineers, and John volunteered to go out there and do his OCTU training in India, where he would get the – learn the language, of course, because it was only the officers who were – well, the majority of the officers were British, but the rest, of course, were locals. So John went off to India. When I first went out to – to Italy, there was – a school of military engineering was developed, er, not far from Naples, a place called Capua, and I went down on – there on a course. I forget what it was. And this – while the war was on, of course. I bumped into John quite by accident, ‘cause he’d come back from Italy with an Indian division and had been in Italy for some time. And, er, they were involved right up in the – the north. There’s a river called the Adige, which is quite a substantial – a substantial river, not as big as the Po. And they were building a bridge across. One had been destroyed. And – across the Adige. And John was out on – doing a reconnaissance for the crossing, I believe, and this German started firing mortars and he was killed. And this was only about – I

67 Harry Yeadon Page 68 C1379/82 Track 3 think a week, a couple of weeks, before the war finished. And the Indian – Indian divisions were pulled out of Italy very quickly, as the Americans were, to go out to the Far East, because the Japs, of course, were still – as you know, the war in Japan didn’t finish ‘til the August, as distinct from May. And so they were pulled out very quickly. And I was sent over to take over this bridge, which – which had been started, and met the OC of the – the unit and – who happened to be a South African, but that’s by the way. So it was all very sad, meeting up with his unit and he was killed that way. Now I had a girlfriend at the time, before I went out there, and when we were friendly – and somehow or other – I must have lost interest or something, and John took over, and before he went out to India he got engaged to this girl. And when I eventually got back, I happened to come home on a course just when the war finished, and the – this South African major, and quite a few of the colonials like that, were allowed to come over on a trip to – to Britain before they went off back to South Africa. And he came to see John’s mother and met this girl, got engaged to this girl and married her, off to South Africa. What a small world, isn’t it? [Laughs] Anyway, that’s by the way.

[41:10]

When were you actually sent out to Italy?

1944. It was – it was – we weren’t associated with D-Day. It was after D-Day, but we were sent out as – as reinforcements. D-Day was in June. And ironically, we were going off on – on troops ships and out into the Atlantic and then through into the Med, because – it was a bit ironic because quite a few units had been pulled out of, well, North Africa and Italy, going into Sicily, which was before going into Italy, of course. And – and yet we were being sent out as reinforcements. So there was a bit of a switch one way. I suppose in some respects one could understand it, because those people that had gone through Africa, North Africa, of course, were highly experienced. You know, been at it for several years [laughs]. And therefore they needed to retain a nucleus of experienced people in Italy, because we weren’t getting the – the resources that they were getting in North West Europe. That’s where the

68 Harry Yeadon Page 69 C1379/82 Track 3 emphasis was, of course, not only in personnel but also in, erm – in equipment, etc. Anyway.

What was it like when you first got there?

Well [clears throat], it was interesting in the sense that eventually we – we didn’t know where we were going. We’d assembled at Halifax, of all places. We were – and we didn’t know where we were going. And we were got out – the middle of the night, getting on – put on a train, and we didn’t know where we were going until we – we find ourselves – the train’s stopping in Darlington and we were being issued with tropical kit. We were saying, ‘What are we doing going north to Darlington?’ And eventually the train got as far as, er, Greenock, and we were pulled off the train at Greenock. And there was a convoy being set up in the Clyde, and we were shipped off to one of these ships, which actually had been a – it was a very nice ship. It had been a Norwegian cruise ship, but it was fitted out as a – as a troop ship. And – and it was moored out in the – in the Clyde. And we went to bed, you know. There were bunks and so on. And I was responsible for a group of about fifty or sixty sappers and other ranks and so on of this lot. And anyway, somebody went up on – got out of bed in the morning, went up on – on deck and said we’d had a big bang in the night. And we thought, I wonder what that is? It was, you know, the wind had – had got up. And we said, ‘Oh, that was a strong wind, caused that bump,’ sort of thing. Came back and said, ‘We’re high and dry on the north side of the Clyde.’ And what had happened was that a ship farther up this group forming a convoy had got washed off its moorings by the – the strong wind, carried down onto us, hit us and knocked a big hole in the side [laughs]. Thought, this isn’t a very good idea. Wherever we might be going, you’re going off in a ship with a big hole in the side. So they managed to – on the next high tide, they managed to tow us off this. Fortunately it was – it was above the normal waterline anyway, so we weren’t in that sense. And took us up – a place called Gare Loch, which is a military port, and we were put up there for – till they decided what to do. Well, of course, you couldn’t get another ship from – just like that, so we were all doubled up onto other ships. So all – all these ships became grossly overcrowded, you know, with having to accommodate all this lot that they – that had appeared, and – and off we went. And when we got to – eventually we – we

69 Harry Yeadon Page 70 C1379/82 Track 3 didn’t know where we were, apart from we were somewhere out in the Atlantic, and – and then somebody one night – we were going through and you could see land in the darkness, and I asked a member of the crew, ‘Where are we?’ And he shouldn’t have been telling us. ‘Oh, that’s Gibraltar.’ So we knew we were going into the Med, and finished up in – in Naples. And Naples was a shambles because a lot of shipping had been destroyed there. The Bay of Naples – I wouldn’t say fall, but quite a number of sunken ships. And we were put alongside and taken off, marched off, and taken right through the backstreets of Naples, because we didn’t know who was looking for us and looking at us and trying to assess how many we were. Taken to a camp somewhere out of – outside Naples. And put into this camp, and the next morning calling the roll. And I’d lost a man. Where’s this chap gone? And he’d gone in for a night out in Naples on his own and hadn’t come back [laughs] at the appropriate time. I got a lift with – we were put on a train then, surprisingly. The war was still on and this was a – an American train, going north out of Naples, up to this place, Capua. It wasn’t very far. And we were on this – in goods vans on this – this train. Erm, and we were on it for about, ooh, more than twenty four hours, I think, in these goods vans before we got to our destination, and we’d only come about fifteen miles [laughs]. It was – it was a bit of a farce. And we eventually got off the train and there was this chap that I’d lost, who’d got there before us. He’d got a lift on an American truck [laughs]. Oh, you could find some smart operators. Anyway, that was the arrival in Italy.

[48:40]

What were conditions in Italy like more generally?

Well, Naples, of course, was a very rough place anyway, and didn’t spend much time in there. And – and then – got moved up to a unit, which was just – just north of Rome. The Cassino business had been finished just before we went up through there. But we went up to the monastery at the top, the Cassino. It was all in a terrible state, of course, heavily bombed, and mined, heavily mined, but the route had been cleared up to get up there. And of course there was quite a battle just north of Cassino, which was mentioned actually on television the other night. It was the plain just beyond,

70 Harry Yeadon Page 71 C1379/82 Track 3 leading up to – up to Rome, and this was quite a battle. So eventually we – we found ourselves just north of Rome, ‘cause Rome was declared an open city. Of course it was bombed or damaged. Quite surprisingly really, you know, in the present day when you get places like, I suppose, Damascus and so on [laughs] bombed, and they were there with an open city and both sides keeping out of it. And of course it was a bit of a hotspot. But it was interesting while we were up there because we were looking at – at ways of trying to find out what the condition of the bridge – bridges were north of there, and we had attached to us for a short time a Royal Artillery plane, ‘cause they had planes for spotting, artillery spotting. And so we were using that plane – they were quite small. It was a Auster, if that means anything about planes. In fact there was one on Lytham Green only a couple of weeks ago, but that’s another story. And I was talking to the chap there, and you could only get the pilot and one person alongside him and an observer at the back. And – and you got very good visibility, because they fly very low, you see, so you were quite safe in that sense. You were almost hedge hopping. And so, you know, that was quite an interesting exercise. And eventually, of course, we moved up from this place, Viterbo, and then across the Apennines, up into join the Eighth Army. So that was really the sequence.

[51:50]

How do you actually take to army life? Shall I let you have a cup of tea first [laughs]?

Oh, very well. I think I did reasonably well. And although, you know, the unit coming through the – through the desert and the colonel of the regiment – he was a – he was a really tough character. He was a Northern Ireland man by the name of Johnny Walker, known throughout the army. A Royal Engineer, of course. And he hadn’t been home for twenty years, because when he’d been commissioned before the war, he’d been sent out to India, I think, and then the Sudan, and never bothered coming home on leave at all. And in fact he did go on leave before the war finished. So Johnny Walker was quite – quite a character.

What sort of chap was he?

71 Harry Yeadon Page 72 C1379/82 Track 3

He was – he was square, tough. Tough and square, quite small. And I suppose that I was only a young subbleton [ph] in those days and all these were hard – real hard liners, the others, you know, and a mixed bag of – of other officers, who were South Africans and – you name it, you know, who’d been picked up in – in the Eighth Army in North Africa and had come through. I got on very well with them. But I was – I was really the lad, you know, almost, as a young subbleton [ph]. But I found myself involved in – in communications, because I’d – I’d been on a course before I went out there. And it was one reason why I joined this unit because, although we had a Royal Corps Signals sections attached to us that I was responsible for, it was only a sergeant in charge of it – but I sort of was one of the main links in communication terms, with forward units, etc. Anyway, I got on there well, in the sense that Johnny Walker – was it Johnny Walker or was it his …? Yeah, or his successor. When everything was happening in – in Palestine at that time, and said, ‘Well, why don’t you …?’ Instead of going on – on release when I was due to come out of the army, ‘Why don’t you stay in on a short service commission,’ which I could have done as a regular, ‘and come out to the Middle East with us.’ Because the unit was going out there. And eventually I thought, well, I’ve got to think of my future career and – but yeah, I would have been quite happy with army life. I know a lot of people didn’t cope with it, but – oh, which – I should have mentioned when you were here last week. I did have five years in the – in the TA after the war, which was a unit based in – in Manchester, in – oh, Stepford, 123 Field Engineer Regiment. And so I – but we had a squadron out in East Lancashire, which I joined. And so, you know, it was – so there was an attraction. And I needn’t have joined the TA, but it was about the time of the – it was a bit picky. It was about the time of Suez, you know, and nobody knew what was going to happen with regards to that. So we – we were very much on the ball. I mean, we went down to the West Country on a major exercise with a full division, you know. It was – it wasn’t just playing at it. It wasn’t – it wasn’t Home Guard stuff [laughs] anyway. I told you about the Home Guard, didn’t I? Yes? Oh dear. Dad’s Army on television is so true [laughs].

[56:21]

72 Harry Yeadon Page 73 C1379/82 Track 3

What did you actually enjoy about army life?

Well, I think I enjoyed the – the fact that it was – it was disciplined and everybody knew their place, shall I put it that way? And providing you had a good relationship with all and sundry, both among your men or – and with, you know, senior officers, then, you know, it was – it was very – very tidy. It was – it was good in that sense. And a lot to be – erm, you see, the – when I was talking about work in – on the motorways, you know, we worked very hard. The majority of us were ex service people, and we were used to having tight deadlines and we were used to working late, and we didn’t bother about hours and so on. And I think that came from the military service. So there was certainly a benefit in that sense. I mean, most of them, of course, were working within joint offices and so on. I mean, they were – they were – had been officers, of course. One or two who were not. But they – I think – I think I liked that. I didn’t mind working hard. I was used to it. Anyway.

You mentioned that one of the things you liked about the army was everybody sort of knew their place. Where was your place?

My place was – do you mean in the army or out – after the army?

I mean in the army.

In the army? Oh well, I started off as a second lieutenant and then you got promoted more or less automatically to a full lieutenant after six months. And then, er, you went to a unit, you served in the unit and eventually – the unit I joined, and eventually – it was a field squadron, it was known, a field squadron that had been right in front of the engineers. Because you’ve got engineers coming up behind anyway. But this was a field squadron. And eventually I became second in command of the field squadron with a rank of – of captain, and that’s the rank I had when I left. So that was my place.

[59:17]

73 Harry Yeadon Page 74 C1379/82 Track 3

What – I’m sorry. What does a field squadron actually do, in broad terms?

Well, a division, an army division, if it’s an infantry division, as distinct from an armoured division, because the setup is a bit different – take an infantry division. You’d have – it was all the basis of threes. In a division you would have normally three brigades and a brigade would consist of three battalions of infantrymen. Now associated with – with that, you would have the – if you like, the support services. You would – you have a regiment of artillery within the division. You would have perhaps a regiment of, erm – well, the reconnaissance corps were quite important. But the – the other main units were, erm, artillery, engineers and you’d also have – you were self – a division was the lowest form of a unit which was self sufficient, in the sense that it could operate on its own because it had got everything. And it would have the RAC people, that’s the service corps, dealing with ammunition and – and food and so on. So, you know, that was the basis of it. And you would have – but the armoured division, of course, instead of infantry battalions, you would have regiments of – of tanks, armour vehicles. And – and then you would have – separate from the divisions, you would have independent units. For example, you would have an armoured corps operating on its own, supported by engineers and others, but they weren’t quite self sufficient. And you’d have the detached units from this – this armoured corps, detached and attached to, say, a brigade, one of the brigades, on a particular operation attack, where you would have certain tanks as a number of armoured vehicles – if it was appropriate, depending on the territory. So, you know, that was the basis of it. The Americans were – I’m not quite sure whether they were organised in the same way, but the business of threes, you see, in the – in a battalion itself, you would have three infantry battalion. You’d have three companies within the battalion. And within a company you’d probably have three platoons. And it was all based on threes, which is important, I think, because you were – and of course, you wore – you wore badges accordingly. You could identify, from the badge somebody was wearing, as to what their unit was, even though it was only – they were only symbolic badges. The unit was not identified as such. You know, you would have a little blue and red strip. If the blue came first and then the red strip – red bit afterwards, only a short bit, only about that long, you’d known it was an engineer. If it was the other way round, red and then blue, that was artillery. And – and each –

74 Harry Yeadon Page 75 C1379/82 Track 3 each branch had its own means of identifying. And then you would have the – either the brigade or the divisional badge. You know, for example, the – we had, erm, for our regiment, erm, we had a clenched fist. That was the – the divisional symbol, because we were armoured and so on. That was the clenched fist. And you would get other symbols as well. So, you know, you could identify someone.

[1:04:15]

So being in an armoured division, are you actually riding round in a tank yourself?

Oh yes, could be, yes, yes, indeed. But also, of course, the – your vehicles tended to be armoured anyway in terms of – instead of just an ordinary three tonne lorry, which was a standard thing, everybody travelled in three tonne lorries – but if you were armoured and you were involved in reconnaissance, of course, in a forward area, then you would have an armoured scout car, for example, erm, which was very useful. But they’d only – they’d only cope with small arms fire, wouldn’t cope with – with a mine. They weren’t tracked. But some would be tracked. Erm, yeah.

On a sort of practical daily basis – we’ve talked a little bit about some of, you know, building Bailey bridges and things like that, but what are you actually doing on a day to day basis out there?

Waiting [laughs], an awful lot of waiting in a forward area. Waiting for something to happen. You’re not at it all the time. And I think that – and particularly infantrymen would go forward and dig a trench or something like that, or get behind a bunker and they’re waiting until somebody organises an – an attack, for example. Or you’re digging yourself in in a defensive position, so you’re still waiting. So I think you – you’d find that fairly common. Not all the time, but a lot of the time is waiting, because you can’t – you can’t be at it all the time. And one of the things which I only commented the other day on television – well, I often comment, my wife gets a bit – ‘Oh, you’re at it again.’ And you see these pictures of places in Syria or somewhere like that, where the insurgents are at it and they’re running around with – with rifles and so on. I always say, ‘What are they doing for ammunition, you know?’ Because

75 Harry Yeadon Page 76 C1379/82 Track 3 a machinegun can get through all your ammunition in a matter of seconds, you know. So unless you – you are resourcing yourself properly, you grind to a halt, you know. So in a forward area, ammunition is – is highly important, having enough of it and using it properly. But of course you’ve got other things, like putting smoke – smokescreens and so on. You can do that with a – with a mortar bomb, which are highly effective. And of course, mortars, highly effective weapon. Do you know what a mortar is? It’s a – it’s a type of gun, but it’s – you can have one which is – can be carried – manpower. And it’s got a wide – it’s not like a rifle, it’s got a wide nozzle and you drop it into the – from the front forward, drops back, a bomb. So it’s – it’s firing bombs rather than small bullets. That’s the difference. And they can be quite deadly. In fact, that’s what John Foulds, I believe, was killed by, a mortar bomb, because they were aware that this bridge site was being investigated and – and had a go at them. Anyway.

You mentioned, a lot of the time you were out there, you know, you spent waiting. Can you give me an example of waiting for what? What do you do once that thing has happened?

Well, you’re trying to keep morale up, for a start. I think that’s important. You’ve got to see where your food is coming from. That’s important, obviously. I think sleep is important, because in a forward area, what you suffer from in most cases – well, shortage of sleep. That is one of the basic problems. And, you know, seeing your – your weapons are kept in good order, clean and so on. But sitting in a – in a slit trench for hour after hour after day after day isn’t very pleasant, particularly in bad weather. But you’ve got to be prepared to move people around. Say you’ve got people in slit trenches, a line of them, forward, replace them with somebody else you can pull in from the rest of the unit and change over. I think that was – that’s important. All part of the morale business.

[1:09:47]

What are you waiting for?

76 Harry Yeadon Page 77 C1379/82 Track 3

Well, you were waiting for instructions [laughs], orders. The orders should – could be, ‘We’re going to mount an – an attack at a certain – a certain time of – of day,’ usually first thing in the morning sort of thing, ‘and you’ve got to be – you’ve got to be ready.’ Or, if you were retreating to another position, of course you were waiting for a – an order to retreat in an orderly fashion. And so it’s – it’s all a question of orders at the right time. But hardly ever really static. But of course, you were – I mean, the – it – the last war wasn’t like the first war. There was no trench warfare as such. There weren’t any trenches. What you had is you had your own individual slit trench and you had your – in fact, I’ve got one in the shed out there, an entrenching tool, which you carry with you. So if you – you dig and you dig a hole for yourself [laughs] and get in it if there’s any risk attached in terms of bombing.

What do you actually do personally when an attack happens, as an engineer in a field squadron?

Well, you’ve got a particular task. And it may be clearing a – a minefield or it could be building a Bailey, or it could be, erm, putting down – trying to improve an access track in some form or other, although the amount of equipment that you had – you could call up equipment. What you would have in a – a … We weren’t called a regiment in – in engineers, apart from the armoured engineer regiment that I mentioned. You were the engineers for the division, with a colonel in charge, and he would have perhaps three squadrons or companies. The infantry divisions, the engineers were always known as engineer companies. The armoured engineers – the armoured units would have field squadrons. I don’t know, purely a name, I suppose. And, erm, I’ve lost my train of thought now. So you would – you would have three – three squadrons, say, under the colonel, and he would also have – there were three field squadrons, the active ones, and a field – a field part squadron, as it was known, and that was a squadron essentially concerned with bringing up equipment, etc. That was important, that you got that, because there’s no point in saying we’re going to build a bridge unless you know where the bridging equipment is coming from, etc, etc. And there were some odd stories, I remember, of Baileys, which of course – once you’d – you’d built the Bailey and you’d got over it, you didn’t – you didn’t take it with you. You left it. You moved on. But of course, people coming up behind the

77 Harry Yeadon Page 78 C1379/82 Track 3 field part, they would demolish it and use it, you know, bring it forward for use again. And some Italian farmer or something, the story went, who’d been wanting a bridge across a particular stream or water course for – for some time, never had one, couldn’t afford to have one built – the army comes along, builds a bridge, moves away, leaves it. What happens? Some fly – I think it was a New Zealand actually, turns up at the farm – at the farm and gets to know the farmer and said, ‘Well, what are you going to pay me for it?’ [Laughs] Now it’s probably not true. But no, this was quite a – quite a – a problem, bringing the – the equipment forward after it had been used and reusing it.

[1:14:49 – pause]

Did you see much actual combat when you were out there?

Well, I was in a – a forward area. You know, there was always – the American used to say if they met you, ‘Hey, have you seen combat?’ You know, that was their opening move [laughs], you know. Well, in the sense that you don’t see an awful lot. You hear an awful lot and – but seeing, you know, when you – in that sort of situation, not – not really. You see the effects but you don’t actually see much of it. It’s over very quickly. I mean, that thing I mentioned the other – erm, was on television the other day, just north of Cassino, and it was a very intense battle, heavy – heavily armoured area, with a lot of vegetation and so on, and – where the Germans had put, erm, sort of emplacements inside the – the wooded areas. And yet that was over very, very quickly, you know, only – you’re only talking about a few days, because, of course, it’s so intense for a short time. But that’s only affecting comparatively – I wouldn’t say I was involved in that sort of situation. But you know what’s going on because you, you know, you get a certain amount of shelling, even though it’s not necessarily near you.

If not that sort of situation, what sort of situations were you involved in?

Well, essentially, moving forward to deal with a particular problem, which was suspect – I think the – perhaps the most dangerous, which I wasn’t personally

78 Harry Yeadon Page 79 C1379/82 Track 3 involved in, is getting across the river, with perhaps – in a – perhaps an assault craft, to have a look at what the situation is on the other side before you decide you’re going to build a bridge there, you know. That potentially, because they’ve got to establish a base on the other side, otherwise there’s no point in launching a Bailey onto the other side and somebody’s sitting there waiting to – to shoot at you as soon as you get across there, even though it’s only on the skeleton bridge. No, I can’t say that I did. I’d be – I’d be boasting quite immodestly if I did that – if I said that. But we always referred to the – either the forward area or the sharp end. And this is what – I won’t say annoys me, but concerned me about stuff you see on – on television or on radio, where they talk about ‘in the front line.’ Well, there isn’t a front line these days. That’s – that’s the trenches of the first war. You might say you were at the sharp end. That was the normal terminology, or in a forward area. And – yeah, but lines of communication, of course, highly important, and coming up from the south of Italy was a fuel pipeline, all the way up, so you – you brought your fuel with you in a pipeline. I wasn’t – we weren’t involved in that. That was a specialist thing.

How do you get on with your men? I assume you’re leading a bunch of people.

Oh yes, yes, you are. I mean, you … you need some good NCOs, good sergeants, that sort of – they’re the key, key men, really. And corporals, of course, key men. And – very well – oh well, I like to think I got on well with them. And, erm – but others didn’t. But they soon – they soon learnt it was not a good thing not to get on with the men [laughs]. I remember speaking at a dinner about one of my colleagues, who’d been in the Royal Engineers, and I said, ‘Well, he served so and so, and the men – the men followed him very well, if it was only out of curiosity’ [laughs]. Oh, I was being a bit unfair, but pulling his leg.

[1:20:00]

Were there any incidents – what are your strongest memories, I suppose, of – of that time in Italy, if you had to pull a few things?

Er … Strongest memories in – in what particular context?

79 Harry Yeadon Page 80 C1379/82 Track 3

In Italy.

Er, oh, I think the – it was a tough country, very difficult country, topographical and – and the split with the Apennines down the middle, I think this was – it was a – one of the most difficult countries to fight a war in, no doubt about that. Everybody would agree. Different war in North West Europe, erm, you know, in D-Day and beyond, because of the terrain. That, I think, was the main factor. Erm, yeah, erm, you know, there were always problems, engineering problems, you know, deep valleys or – or water courses or bridges that had been blown and so on. And so it was so easy in a way, because the Germans were retreating all the time, and of course, blow the bridges as you’re going, protecting yourself. It was thought, of course – even before the war finished, I remember going to a – I suppose you’d call it a conference, before the war finished, when it was thought that the Germans might retreat up into the – the Alps and hold out there, seriously thought. And this is the thing I went to, how you communicate, and very difficult. Even – even more difficult than it had been perhaps in the Apennines, you could hold out, and fed from the – the north, but of course they didn’t. And they realised that they were on the losing side. And so the war in Italy finished on 2nd May, did I mention this, as opposed to 8th May, which is VE Day. And this was a situation, where we’d got up to – we were on the – we’d got across the Po and – I’ll show you that picture, by the way. We’d got across the Po and we got up as far as, erm, Padua, if it means anything to you, which is not far from – from Venice. And it was a case of stop, you can’t go any – any faster because we haven’t got the resources. Lines of communication becoming extended. And the only unit that was pushed on were the New Zealanders, the New Zealand division, whose role was to get to Trieste before Tito and his Yugoslavs got there. And so everything was pushing the New Zealanders. We had some of our people attached to the New Zealanders going forward. And we stayed put for a time and the headquarters, Central Mediterranean forces, which had been based in Caserta, moved up to Padua. So everything operated from – from there.

[1:23:54]

80 Harry Yeadon Page 81 C1379/82 Track 3

But I found myself being sent up to – up into the Dolomites, really, where they had an escape route up there where they’d blown bridges. Because there were – there were two main routes out of that part of Northern Italy. One was going up through Cortina, of all places, up in that direction, which was quite a good route in a way. It was mountainous, of course. And the other was further to the east, a place called – well, north of Trieste, a place called Udine. But of course, very susceptible to, erm, Tito, if he decided to – to try and cut us off. And so I found – two particular jobs, I got. One was going up on this Cortina route, which was obviously absolutely – absolutely deserted, and worked with the local divisional road engineer and the highway authority, you know, trying to get some bridges in place. And the other one was – on the other route, was, er, being sent up there, just when the war finished, when Tito was – was sitting on the – the banks of the Isonzo River, which flows out at – at Trieste, and sort of holding the fort there. And going up – being sent up by this chap, Johnny Walker, when he said, ‘Go and find …’ We’d lost communications with the unit we had attached to the New Zealanders. ‘Go and find this unit,’ ‘cause we’d lost it. So off I went in a Jeep with a driver and we got up – up there, got up close to the – this river. And the – the town on the other side was a place called Gorizia, which was quite a – a provincial town. And – and I was stopped by a military policeman and – and he said, ‘Okay,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a woman here with a seriously ill child, and the hospital is over on the other side of the river.’ And there was a bridge across the river you could go on, but it was virtually held by – by Tito. So I said – he said, ‘Are you going into Gorizia?’ And I said, ‘Yes, I’m trying to find this unit.’ So off we went, across this bridge. And at every street corner, with these ancient machineguns and so on, were these Yugoslav troops looking at us. You know, we were all supposed to be allies. And suddenly hearing a band and I got into the centre of the town and there was a – a guards’ regiment. And I forget whether it was Cold Stream or what. How they’d got there, I don’t know. And they were marching up and down, playing music [laughs], showing the flag. Anyway, it’s alright, I got this woman to hospital and I found this unit. And, you know, it was a very interesting exercise [laughs].

[1:27:30]

Did you see anything of the – the Italian motorway system?

81 Harry Yeadon Page 82 C1379/82 Track 3

Yes, I did. That’s interesting you mention that, because you may have noticed, if you had a chance to look at that book that I leant you, that it is referred to there. And – and this was interesting, because, erm, after the – the war had finished, and when I was based in Padua – or the unit I was with, the field squadron I was with, based in Padua. And the Americans had pulled out and they had built a bridge over the – the Po, south of Milan, on the Milan-Genoa road. But unfortunately in August of 1945, there were some very heavy rains up in the mountains and the approach embankment which they constructed got washed away. And so it needed another bridge to replace this embankment. And so I was sent over there to – to build this bridge, which was a Bailey. And we were in a place called – a town called Pavia, which is between Milan and – and Genoa, and, er, trying to build this bridge. And traffic was trying to get through and the only way they could, without the bridge, was to go down onto the riverbed, where a rough road was put on the riverbed, now that the rains had stopped, to get traffic across there. Because the main food supply, the Italian civilian food supply, was coming in at the port of Genoa, trying to get up to – to Milan, and it was a very busy route, and we were trying to build this – this bridge to replace this haul road, which is all it was, a rough ride. So that was an interesting job, using – using Bailey. Erm, and it was an interesting replacement bridge because the – the bridge which had been there on this route was in fact [laughs] a big box girder, with a – or a huge box girder, because it had the railway inside the box and a road on the top of the box. And the thing had been demolished. And that’s why the – where the Americans came in and used Bailey bridging in a rather unusual way. But at least, you know, they did it. They got a crossing. But of course the approaches got washed away. Anyway, that was interesting.

Shall we stop for lunch, as it’s inbound?

Yes.

[End of Track 3]

82 Harry Yeadon Page 83 C1379/82 Track 4

Track 4

I was wondering, what did you see of the Italian motorways when you were in Italy?

Ah yes. Yes, I was in the middle of talking about that. As I mentioned, I was sent over to work on a bridge over the River Po on the route between Genoa and – and Milan, erm, a place called – near a place called Pavia. And the unit remained in – I just had two troops of sappers working with me. Another chap joined me but he – he left. And the headquarters of the squadron itself was way back in Padua, which was – I’m trying to think how far it was. It must have been, you know, getting on for 150 miles, something like that, which was a bit difficult [laughs], lines of communication, if you like. And the easiest way of getting from Padua to this particular place, Pavia, was on one of the original motorways, which consisted only of a single carriageway. But it was – it was fenced off, but it had what I would describe – a bit like level crossing points, with a gated access. And there was – whether he was a toll keeper I don’t know, but of course we didn’t pay tolls anyway, military – with a cottage there. And so it was – and I found out afterwards, was a motorway. I’d never heard of such a thing before. And it wasn’t the first one. The first one actually, which I did use later on – this didn’t go all the way into Milan, by the way, or it didn’t start in – in Padua. It was a place called Vicenza, I think. Anyway, the first one was north of – of Milan, leading up towards – I suppose it might have been eventually going up to the Swiss frontier eventually, but it was comparatively small. And that was the first motorway in the world, ‘cause the Italians were ahead of everybody, ahead of the Americans and – erm, and certainly the Brits. So I had the experience of that. And I must say, I was quite impressed because, of course, the war had just finished, there wasn’t an awful lot of traffic about, but it got on very well. But as I was saying, only a single carriageway. Potentially a bit dangerous, I suppose, overtaking. Only two lanes, as far as I remember. But it had properly controlled junctions at appropriate places, leading onto the local highway network. And so when – when I first got involved with the motorway programme in – in Lancashire, with Jim Drake’s enthusiasm – and he’d been over to the States anyway, erm, about that time. You know, I said, ‘Oh well, I’ve – I’ve been on motorways.’ And of course the Germans followed very rapidly and they built a real network, which allegedly, you probably

83 Harry Yeadon Page 84 C1379/82 Track 4 know this, was – although it was said to be used to open up access to various towns and cities, which sounds very obvious. It was also to be able to move troops rapidly in the event of war starting, as they did in 1939. So the Italians, the Germans, the Americans, were all ahead of us. So that was my experience.

[04:30]

Did having – what was the defining feature of a motorway, if it’s only got one carriageway then, the Italian’s?

The defining feature of the motorway is the regulations which control the type of traffic that uses it. That is the only legal requirement, if you look at the law. But of course, various highway authorities, countries, have developed their own standards in terms of – er, well, as you say, number of – of lanes in carriageways and so on, depending on the traffic requirements. Also, er, the importance of control of access, which is a fundamental thing, of course, which is what the regulations, in fact, control; they control the – not only, er, the type of traffic, but also, erm, well, I suppose you might – well, I suppose just being in control of, you know, the type of traffic using them. You know, you can’t go on on a bicycle, for example, or a pedestrian can’t use it. But those are – those are the fundamentals, quite simple. But the standards, of course, tended to develop, even though the width of a – a traffic lane is – is pretty well the same as it was when we started in 1956. Erm, that’s the same. The gradient standards we started off, those are pretty well standard now. And that is that you don’t have a gradient steeper than four percent, although there are places where there are – where there are such things. Erm, and springing from that, naturally, you find yourself involved in a lot of bridges, particularly at interchanges and so on. So it’s quite simple, really, to create a motorway and tell people what they can do and what they can’t do. It – I’m all for motorways. I mean, they are, as you probably know, the safest roads going, statistically. By statistically I’m referring to, if you take the number of injury accidents per million vehicle miles and so on, compared with any other type of road, they are the safest. And, er, it’s very difficult to – to get that through to people. The other advantage, of course, is being able to travel between point A and point B at a good – a good speed, and by speed I’m not talking about

84 Harry Yeadon Page 85 C1379/82 Track 4 miles per hour. I’m talking about speed in journey time. The benefits, of course, are considerable. And you may have seen – had a chance, if you’ve had a look at that book, a chapter there on benefits, which I did with a former planning colleague. And of course, there are examples, which – I could take you all over the place, showing how – areas which are in – particularly in East Lancashire, which were becoming almost derelict because of the decline in the textile industry and the coal industry, how development has taken place in some cases once they knew that the motorway was coming through that area and the developers would move in and building, you know, developing factory sites, etc, etc. So the – the benefits are considerable.

[09:10]

Now we had a bit of a silly situation here because, going east – if you had a chance to look at the map, and you get as far as Burnley – that’s Preston, Blackburn, Burnley – the existing – well, the existing road as it was, was a trunk road as far as Burnley and then it went south into Yorkshire, and beyond, along the Calder Valley, which you were following – beyond Burnley, along the Calder Valley. The road, which was the same road in effect, was a county road, county council highway authority, and it as considered that there was a case for a motorway. But the length from Burnley onwards was the subject of statutory procedures carried out by the county council as a highway authority, with the support of the county borough councils, who were also highway authorities, like Burnley. And a joint public inquiry was held for the trunk road section, which was the responsibility of the Department of Transport and the county council section. And a favourable decision was – was granted, although the line from Burnley coming through to Preston to connect with M6 was not settled, and I’ll come to that in a moment. We carried on pressing on with the statutory undertakings – sorry, the statutory procedures, and in fact the – the contracts for the county section – it was being financed seventy five percent by Department of Transport anyway because it was a principal road, finished – I think it was about three years before the first section of the trunk road finished. So we were – we showed that we could do it quicker in all – in all respects, both procedures, land purchase – erm, well, we got financing anyway, and the construction. And by a series of contracts, which were all linked together – it was a very difficult job to do in terms of the

85 Harry Yeadon Page 86 C1379/82 Track 4 number of small contracts, because we couldn’t finance more than a bit at a time, if you like.

Was this the M56, sorry?

That’s the – that’s the M65

[12:15]

Going back to the Italian motorways, was there anything that struck you about them at the time?

Struck –

What impression did they make on you?

Well, they – they were a good alignment, extremely good alignment, you know. You’d no sharp bends or anything like that, you know. In terms of alignment and – and profile, you know, they were very good, and – which of course is important in safety terms. And the over bridges were good. Because, of course, you’ve got to be careful with an over bridge that you don’t affect sight line, particularly if you’ve got a limited number of traffic lanes for overtaking. Yes, they were pretty good.

Affect sight line how, sorry?

Well, if – if you’ve got – erm, forget the bridge side. Take the alignment as such. If you’ve got a – a curve, which is too sharp and so on, and you’re only a single carriageway, then of course traffic coming the other way, you only see it at the last minute, don’t you, if the bend is too sharp? Of course, it doesn’t apply quite the same with a dual carriageway. But it can do if there was, say, an accident and a vehicle – a stopped vehicle, and that is hidden by a sharp bend. That is potentially dangerous. Unfortunately, of course, when accidents do happen on – on motorways, they tend to be quite serious in terms of casualties because, of course, people tend to be going at

86 Harry Yeadon Page 87 C1379/82 Track 4 speed. Now as far as speed is concerned, when the first motorways opened in Lancashire, there was no speed limit at all. And, er, I don’t know why it was not applied. Anyway, there was no speed limit. And it was a few years before the seventy miles per hour speed limit was introduced. And of course there had been noises made that that ought to be increased to eighty miles an hour and so on, which I think is a nonsense because – and I don’t know what it’s like in the States at the moment because I haven’t been over there for a few years, but of course they had quite tight speed limits in many cases on motorways, although they didn’t call them motorways. The, erm … and it essentially was because, if everybody was travelling at fifty, if you travel more closely together – and therefore you got greater capacity for that reason. Apart from the fact that having everybody going less than fifty was safe, but everybody knew how long it was going to take them for their journey because they wouldn’t be going over fifty. And, you know, and it worked. And they’ve never been prepared to accept that situation. You get the public, if you like, saying it ought to be increased, not decreased. Now the only variation on that is that there is – there are examples in the – certainly in the London area, M25, and in the Manchester area with M60, and that is having variable speed limits. So where you’ve got a section which you know is very heavily trafficked, there’s no point in – in having a seventy mile an hour speed limit because it doesn’t help anybody, and they have comparatively short lengths with a lower speed limit. Erm, so that’s that. And I’m afraid, for example, I’m not a – a fan of Formula One racing. I’m dead against it. I think it’s an absolute nonsense. First of all, it’s not a proper race anyway, you know, when they have this pole position business. I never watch in, on principle, and I think it’s an absolute nonsense, the whole thing. And of course what it’s doing is bringing up a generation of boy racers, as they’re known. You know, first thing they want to do when they get to the age of – of eighteen is to get a – go for driving lessons and become license holder and get in a car and go like the clappers. And of course, the facts there are quite clear in that respect. Insurance premiums for youngsters in – in cars are enormous. You know, to get insurance for a youngster in a car, a family car, for example, you’re talking about thousands of pounds, you know. Quite ludicrous. And this is all encouraged by people like that fellow, what’s he called, the – erm, oh, I’ve forgotten his name now. You probably know the chap I’m referring to, who is a leading light in, erm, car – cars and car speeds and so on. Dead against it. Quite

87 Harry Yeadon Page 88 C1379/82 Track 4 wrong. When our whole – one of our main roles working for a highway authority was to cut accidents down, not to encourage them. And I had a responsibility, when I was in office, for road safety, which meant of course not only trying to make roads safer but also to – well, we employed quite a number of road safety officers going to schools and so on, trying to encourage youngsters how to behave on the roads.

[18:50]

What was the effect of not having a speed limit on the first motorway?

It wasn’t too high, because, of course, the traffic numbers at the beginning were – were quite low. And so in that sense – I mean, when it first opened, of course, you got people rather pleased with themselves if they got on the motorway and did a hundred miles an hour, because nobody could do anything about it. Erm, but eventually – it soon came in – because Preston Bypass, for example, if I might quote that, started off with only dual two lanes for essentially – well, two reasons. One was financial reasons. The Department of Transport wouldn’t cough up for dual three lanes, even though we, or Jim Drake and the traffic engineers in the department, were forecasting what traffic figures might be like and the need for the third lane, because we made provision in the design for the third lane coming in, quite simply because we had a wide central reserve where we could take a lane off on either side. That came in within eight years, the need for the third lane. And then, of course, subsequently it’s been – it’s gone up to dual four lanes. But I don’t – I don’t necessarily agree with that because the disruption in the area in upgrading from dual three lane to dual four lane was – was enormous because of the traffic flows which would increase. Once you get north of Preston on M6 then it’s a different world. It’s up as far as Preston that you get the problem. And, er, oh, it was horrendous. And our proposal, which I can’t ever see – see this happen [laughs], not in my day, was a box round Preston, rather like the box round London and Manchester, with a crossing of the – the Ribble west of Preston. We’ve already got the M55 on the north side of Preston. We’ve got Preston Bypass. And there was a proposal for a Preston Southern bypass, which was ready to go more or less and politically was shot down. So I can’t see that happen. Now if

88 Harry Yeadon Page 89 C1379/82 Track 4 that box had been completed, you wouldn’t have needed widening the Preston Bypass from dual three to dual four. So there we are.

[21:45]

I was wondering as well – I guess we’ve talked quite a lot this morning about your time out in Italy, but how did the war come to a close from your point of view?

How did the …?

How did the war come to a close? What happened to you at the end?

How did it come to a close? Well, I think the thing was that, erm, we’d done very well getting up as far as the Po. The Po was – was a major obstacle, and I’ll show you that picture. Erm, and they realised, of course, that with Russia going strong and D- Day had started in June ’44, you know, they were on a hiding to nothing. And they realised that, you know, the end was – the end was nigh. It’s surprising really that they didn’t give up earlier, because once they’d got north of – well, if you like, a line through – through Rome, you know, there wasn’t much of a chance of – of saving it. What they expected the Italians to do, I don’t know, ‘cause the Italians had given up before then. They’d – they’d packed it in in – was it 1943, I suppose, something like that.

How did you find you got on with the Italians out there?

Alright, yeah [laughs]. Interesting people, shall I put it that way? No, they – they were alright. And – and they realised – I mean, the partisans were a bit dodgy at the beginning because they thought they – they were all communists, of course, and they thought they could come out of it with Italy as a communist country. They didn’t last very long but they tried a few campaigns. I mentioned Padua, for example, going round overturning cars and that sort of thing, and having demonstrations. But it didn’t last very long. And the fact that we were putting a lot of resources into Italy at that time in all sorts of ways and – and they just accepted the situation and, you know, we

89 Harry Yeadon Page 90 C1379/82 Track 4 need a democracy. I’ve no doubt a lot of them got quite good jobs out of it, but I don’t know. No, we got on well with them. The only – I mean, we employed them, of course. I mean, the odd – the odd thing about it, we [laughs] – in Padua, we moved into what was quite a nice villa, substantial building, and it had a basement. And in the basement we had some German POWs, who were acting as our caretakers and [laughs] – and, erm, guardians if you like, and it was really to stop the Italians coming in and pinching things [laughs]. Quite ironic. Oh. No, it was alright. And we employed them on various jobs we were doing, as civilians, of course. And we paid them, or they got paid. Oh yes, we paid them. I remember going out with bags of money and paying them, you know, subject to proper timesheets and so on, yeah.

What would happen to you at the end of the war?

What happened to me? Out there, you mean, or back here?

Well, I guess from out there to back here. What’s the step?

Ah. Well, when I – when I came back – I was released in early 1947, came home and I recall, we came across Europe, if you like, by train, got to Calais, crossed to Dover, got on a train. I remember this well, because it was the old days of compartments in trains. And there was an engine driver sitting in this particular compartment and he said, ‘Where have you come from?’ So we told him. He said, ‘I don’t know what you’ve come back for.’ He said, ‘Even the King and Queen have gone off to South Africa’ [laughs], because things were pretty grim in those days, you know. I got home and there was no – I mean, the days of coal fires, of course, had no coal and everything was still heavily rationed. In fact, there was more – more rationing after the war finished than there was during the war. Anyway, that was a – that was comparatively minor. And of course I was looking for a job.

[26:44]

And the – the very severe winter of 1947-’48, that winter, was a shocker. It was a bit like it was here a couple of years ago, thereabouts. And there was a lot of flooding

90 Harry Yeadon Page 91 C1379/82 Track 4 here, there and everywhere. And I applied for a job down in – in Gloucester. And the reason for that was that the – the Severn Valley had been inundated because of rains up in the Welsh mountains, coming down into the Severn and the Bristol Channel, and this was to sort out the mess created by the flooding, and also the fact that a lot of the traditional flood banks had been destroyed. And of course this meant that a lot of agricultural land had been inundated, as well as other places. And d this was quite serious food wise, because food was short and agriculture was a priority. And anyway, I got this job, which consisted of sorting out seawalls down in – towards Bristol and flood banks and so on, and trying to solve a problem long term. And doing a survey, for example, across the – across the Severn, right at the bottom end, because it was said that geologically there was a rock, a band of rock, going right across under the Severn. It wasn’t visible at – even at very low water. And this, of course, was forming an obstacle in terms of trapping water, which couldn’t get away. It was overtopping this rock band. And we got out schemes where we were going to sort of cut through this to ease the flow. And of course you’ve no doubt heard all about the Severn Bore. No? Ah, that’s interesting. The Severn Bore is a very unique thing that’s been there for, ooh, donkey’s years, going way, way back, and it is a tidal wave that comes up the – the Severn, right up as far as – it penetrates as far as Gloucester. And it’s a – it’s a wave that has a main wave and then subsidiary waves. And if you take the length of the Severn south of Gloucester, no craft operate on – on that section of the river, and it was quite wide, of course, because of the Severn Bore, ‘cause it’s potentially dangerous. You know, it could throw a boat up on, you know, it could wreck a boat. And I was working for the divisional engineering based in Gloucester and – and we had a barge, which was – er, had operated on canals, and it was a substantial craft. And this was used for hauling material rock, essentially, along the river and tipping at vulnerable places, where the scour from the bore were cutting into the – the banks and the flood banks were severe. And what we did, we employed – because labour was short, we employed prisoners from Gloucester Jail [laughs], who didn’t mind a day out. It was all hand work, you see, because no plant could operate. And unfortunately we were having trouble with the engine on this thing. And my boss, who was quite an enthusiast for various things, he was an amateur pilot, and he said, ‘Well look …’ Because what happened was that when the spring tides – are you familiar with the business of spring tides, are you? Ah well, every – every

91 Harry Yeadon Page 92 C1379/82 Track 4 two weeks throughout the year, you get a – what’s known as a spring tide. You get the high spring tides at the, er, equinox, erm, and those are substantial. And so the – this barge, which had engines on it, of course, was taken up into Gloucester Docks through locks for safety. And as I say, the engines packed up. What do we do about this barge, because we knew if we left it there on a mooring or – or tied up to a bank, it would probably get wrecked. So this boss of mine said, ‘Look, Gloucester’s the home of the – the jet engine, what we’ll do – because we had some pumps, which were old Zurier fire service [ph] pumps with quite powerful jets on them – mounting a couple of these pumps at the rear of the – or the stern of the barge, and using these with jet propulsion on the – on the water. And we could control the – the movement of the boat anyway. And so we decided that’s what we were going to do, get it up into Gloucester dock. So he said, ‘Are you coming with me?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ So just the two of us and a boatman. And we came to the day and we knew that the bore was coming at a particular time. And so we got on board this thing and we pushed off from the bank. And you could hear it coming, of course. Ooh, it’s quite substantial, this thing. And he came round the bend in the river and hit us up the backside, if you like. And the – and then there was a subsidiary bore after that. And we were carried right up to Gloucester, which was a distance of about – I think it was about – from where it was moored, about eight miles, something like that. And gradually, of course, you see, got further north, it eased off. But we got up – we had the lock gateman there ready to open the lock gate, and we sailed – well, we didn’t sail, we hadn’t got sails, but we went in. And so there’s still no craft on there, but now it’s an absolute haven for surfers to go out there when the bores come in, and there have been various photographs published, etc.

[33:42]

So it was an interesting period. But two reasons that I decided – there wasn’t a hope in hell of getting much in the way out of money out of central government for the sort of thing that we had in mind. And it was – it was the River Severn catchment board, which right up – went right up to Worcester and beyond. And, erm, there was no money going to come through. And at the same time my father wasn’t very well.

92 Harry Yeadon Page 93 C1379/82 Track 4

And so I decided to apply for a job up in Lancashire which became vacant, and that’s why I came back up here.

How long were you actually down in Gloucester?

Oh, only about eighteen months. Then you realised it was – it was a short expedient to get things tidied up, but – and likely to be not much more than that. And there’s – you’ve still got flooding in – on the Severn, places like Gloucester and Worcester and – etc.

Who did you actually work for?

It was the River Severn Catchment Board. Things don’t exist now. All been taken over by the Environment Agency, etc. But it was – I suppose you’d call it a local authority business, really. There was a chief engineer and – and they had a committee structure and – and essentially concerned with – with agriculture, of course, down there, because – a highly profitable area in that respect. But we’d quite a substantial labour force. And we went down as far as – not quite to the mouth of the Avon, but to Severn Beach and so on, which was – and we were – we were quite interested, of course, in the – in the proposed Severn Bridge, the suspension bridge. Of course, there was a bridge across there, a railway bridge, if you remember, from way back. Yeah. The – there was a tunnel. Yes, it was a tunnel really rather than – than a bridge. Anyway, the – the – the suspension bridge was on the cards. And of course subsequently the Severn Barrage has – you’ve probably heard about that, because it’s got the greatest tide range of anywhere else in the country, to make use of that tide range, driving turbines and that sort of thing. But nobody can – no government has been prepared to commit – commit itself at the moment. And in fact I – when I was on the council of the Institution of Civil Engineers, and I was nominated to sit on – on a committee, which was joint interest in – in that sort of thing – not only that, when Heseltine was – chaired this meeting. And somebody had got out an estimate for carrying out a feasibility study for this Severn Barrage, which I think was something like – in those days, I’m going back a long time ago, was twenty million just for a study. And – and Heseltine was a very active chap and wanted to get things through.

93 Harry Yeadon Page 94 C1379/82 Track 4

And the chair got to this item on the agenda and the – he wasn’t the chairman, by the way. And the chairman said, ‘Right, we’ve got to this item.’ And there was a report. Everybody agreed that this ought to be pursued. And Heseltine piped up and said, ‘Well, who’s going to pay for it, twenty million just for a feasibility study?’ And it still – it still hasn’t started [laughs]. And that – that must be over twenty years ago, or more. So that was my time in – erm, in Gloucester, working on that sort of work, sea walls and flood relief.

[38:30]

What does flood relief actually involve?

Well, you’ve got – you’ve got physical barriers in terms of flood banks and – and sea walls. You’ve got those things. But those are the prime considerations, of course. And also, you probably may have read, in parts of East Anglia now, where they were trying to protect the east coast from severe erosion, and of course they came to the conclusion that they might as well let the sea have it and let it come inland, because agriculture wasn’t quite so important in – in those terms. So it – it’s a big argument. You know, you’ve got severe erosion on the – on the east coast, and on the west coast you’ve got the potential flooding, largely with, of course, the Welsh mountains. One of the prime considerations, you know, it’s all got to get out through the – the Severn unless they managed to get it out through some of the other rivers in South Wales, the Wye, for example.

You mentioned that there wasn’t money for the schemes you had in mind. What sort of schemes did you have in mind down in Gloucester?

Well, the idea, the simple idea – and I suppose, being an ex sapper, if we could identify that this rock crossing the – the river, which we knew was there, you know, we went out simply in a boat and – and plodded down through the – through the sand to find out what it was there, although you could have carried out more sophisticated searches, would be to – to blast that rock out and – and remove what was a barrier. And that would have certainly helped. But of course, things didn’t happen.

94 Harry Yeadon Page 95 C1379/82 Track 4

How would removing the rock have actually decreased the flood risk?

Erm, well, because it was trapping – it was trapping the – apart from the seawater that came up with the – the barrage, you know, enormous amount of water coming down the Severn. You know, it’s a major river, as you know. And of course, with a barrier like that, even though it wasn’t visible, and it was intended to hold back the flow of runoff from the mountains, that was the simple approach. What it would have done to the Severn – Severn Bore, I don’t know. But it was a very simple, you know, from somebody like me, who was very naïve about the problem, anyway [laughs]. Oh no, never happened.

Were there any schemes that you planned that did happen down in Gloucester?

No, not really. Not really. It was a case of – of renewal what was there and improving in certain areas, new flood banks. You know, there was quite a – quite a bit of major earth movement going on, because in some cases the flood banks were way back from the edge of the river, you know, in suitable places. And of course, in some respects it helped me because, once you got involved in major road construction, motorways and so on, of course earthworks are the – one of the major factors and they’re very – that’s where the money is, much than anything else [ph], in earthworks. And so you’re using heavy plant and utilising that. And so it was a very useful experience.

What are the main issues in earthworks for – for flood defences?

The main issue? Well, of course, once you’re in the valley itself, there are really no sources of rock as such, you know, in terms of quarried stuff. The – the rock we were using for reinforcement of banks in that barge was coming from the Wye, coming down the – the barge used to go up to a quarry up the Wye Valley and load up there. So there was no source of rock. So you were actually using material out of the ground, essentially clay, of course. It had a good source of clay. That was the best

95 Harry Yeadon Page 96 C1379/82 Track 4 material for building a bank, providing it was properly designed, properly shaped and so on. So, you know, that was a simple thing.

[43:33]

I mean, the source – the business of the sources of rock are quite important in civil engineering terms. And, you see, we – in this part of the world, we’ve got good sources of limestone up in the North Lancashire area, up into Cumbria, good limestone. And over in East Lancashire, up the Ribble Valley, we’ve got good sources of limestone. And we’ve got some good gravels in North Wales, of course. So we were alright for – for rock, but you were importing it a long way, of course. You know, building anything out here, for example, where there is no rock, you know, you – you’ve got an order of something like fifteen miles to a source of rock and the cost of that is enormous. So you try to use the material that’s there. And of course, with the – I might go onto the principles of motorways – the ideal, with building a major road, motorway, fro example, is, if you can get an alignment and a profile, where you’re taking material out to get the – that shape right, and utilise that material for building embankments, using cuttings to – to build embankments, that’s fine, but it’s an absolute ideal which you never achieve, of course. You try to make use of all that you’ve got available to you rather than having to import material. And this is their fundamental consideration.

How do you try to get soil out, soil used in embankments, to actually match?

How do you …?

How do you match – so, say, taking soil –

Well, you try to match –

But how?

96 Harry Yeadon Page 97 C1379/82 Track 4

Well, what you do, you – you carry out a site investigation right along the line that you’ve – you’ve chosen for the motorway. And you might be choosing that line for all sorts of different reasons, of course, proximity of property and – etc, crossings of rivers and railways and so on. So you – your line tends to be fixed for other reasons than earthworks. So you’ve got to make use of what you’ve – what you’ve got. So you carry out the site investigation along the line, which identifies the type of material you’ve got. Now if I might touch on Preston Bypass, you couldn’t have a worse – a worse situation than there, because – if you can visualise the crossing of the Ribble, for example, and you’ve got two escarpments, one on the south side, one on the north side, the north side particularly was sandy clay, soft glacial clay, that had come down with the glaciers of the past. And once you dig into it and it rains, you’ve got trouble. It’s like soup. And trying to build an embankment with that sort of thing, you’ve got to more or less abandon the idea. And of course, contractually it’s highly complex to what extent you try to make your mind up yourself that you’ve got it right in terms of – well, you can take material out of that cutting and put it into that embankment, and so on, or to what extent you make it the responsibility of the contractor, having given him all the information which you’ve obtained from your site investigation. And, you know – and this is a dilemma that’s been there all the way through. And, erm, very difficult to control sandy, silty clays, particularly when it’s raining. Now on Preston Bypass, for example, the important thing about that, apart from the fact it was the first motorway, you couldn’t have had a worse scenario in terms of not only the ground conditions but the weather conditions for the two and a half years that we had when it rained and rained and rained. And it was very difficult to – to work in it. And by whatever plant you were using, whether you were trying to use the – use dozers and – or whether you were using excavators, etc. And, er, I – and it’s very difficult to make a judgement on – when the site is first opened up, as to what it really looks like before the contractor actually gets his machines on the job. And, erm – and the Department of Transport realised this and they were trying – and the minister of the day – and fortunately we’ve got this in record. Preston Bypass was looked at as a guinea pig, an experiment, and the fact that conditions were so bad in all respects, it couldn’t have been a better experiment.

[49:30]

97 Harry Yeadon Page 98 C1379/82 Track 4

And although we had a failure – I don’t know whether you’re aware of this. You may have read about it in the book, in – it was opened in December 1958 and they had to close it for a short spell in – in January because what had happened, in terms of trying to keep the costs down, the – two things were of prime consideration and one was the drainage. Instead of having, as you would have outside on a road like this, where you’d have kerbs and gullies and a – a sewer system and so on, and you’d get your water off – surface water would get into the gullies and so on. And, erm, a system – and the Department of Transport were quite insistent about this, is to put a – what were known as French drains. And a French drain is where – at the back of the hard shoulder, you dig a trench and you put a pipe in it, which is a semi porous pipe, in the sense that it’s – it’s sealed on one side of the periphery of the pipe and the other is porous. And you lay this at the bottom of the trench and you fill the trench with crushed stone or gravel. And the water flows off the carriageway into the trench, gets down through the gravel or stone, into the pipe and then away into a – a proper discharge place. Now that was one fundamental. And of course, the problem also was that, following the practice, pre-war practice, if you built a new road, you never put the final surface on initially, because you let it have it – the traffic have it for a year or two before you put the final surface on. And any, erm, depressions which appeared due to traffic, you could put those right when you put your final surface on. So a – a simple temporary surface was put on Preston Bypass. And of course what happened, we got a very severe freeze thaw cycle. Well, as you know, with frost you get heave. And the frost got into Preston Bypass. The temporary surface, which was only three quarters of an inch thick, couldn’t contain it. The – the frost penetrated down through it and you could this heave. And of course the water couldn’t get away, because the French drains were quite – quite inadequate for coping when the thaw did occur. And so it was – it was quite unique, that freeze thaw cycle. And of course in other countries, like Canada and the States, of course it’s common practice to close a lot of roads during that period of freeze thaw, you know, the middle of winter or towards the end of winter. So it was a very – a very good experiment. But of course, the fact that Harold Macmillan opened it – and it became a real political business. And of course the consulting – firms of consulting engineers, who didn’t like the idea of a local authority like ours building big jobs like motorways – and of course they

98 Harry Yeadon Page 99 C1379/82 Track 4 tried to shoot us down and say we didn’t know what we were doing. And of course it was a real battle. Anyway, we got over it.

[53:25]

What’s heave, sorry?

Sorry?

Heave?

What?

You said that the – the frost thaw cycle would cause heave.

Would cause heave? Well, it’s a – it’s the frost that causes the heave. Sorry, I was talking about a freeze thaw cycle. The frost causes the heave, so the thing is distorted as the heave occurs. And of course, once the thaw happens, then it – it’s up. It’s got up with the frost. Traffic running over it has got a very insubstantial surface to run on. And in many respects it was quite remarkable that it was so limited in – in the extent of it. But it’s all – it’s all mentioned in that book. But Jim Drake was a tough character, although he was under a lot of pressure, and he – he was able to ride it out and, erm – and there we are. I mean, we had other problems on other motorways, which were equally serious, I suppose, in many respects. Erm, it was nature which got us, plus the Department of Transport trying to keep the costs down to a minimum as far as an experiment was concerned.

How did you actually come to work in Lancaster at all – or Lancashire, sorry?

I was – I was a Lancastrian. I was born and brought up [laughs], proud of my county. And, you know – and my father was a Yorkshireman, so we always had battles about cricket [laughs]. No, I was proud to be a Lancastrian and the – the challenge was there. And I realised that the – the county of my birth and so on was on the decline to

99 Harry Yeadon Page 100 C1379/82 Track 4 a major extent and, you know, it was very serious. And I thought, well, you know – I wasn’t the only one. A lot of people like Drake and other colleagues who were Lancastrians, you know, we were of the same mind, you know, you can’t let – let our county go down the nick. And I suppose the same situation must have arisen to some extent in South Wales, of course. Mm? Yes? No?

I don’t know.

Well, with industry, you know, declining, coal. No? Anyway, we knew what we wanted. And the point was that the – the road pattern – if you had a chance to read the bit in that book about the road plan. You see, the road pattern in Lancashire arises primarily from the fact that you’ve got – or in the North West, that includes the north west, have got rivers flowing into the Irish Sea. In the – in the south you’ve got the – the Mersey with the Irwell flowing into the Mersey. As you come north you’ve got the Ribble. You go further north, you’ve got the Lune at Lancaster, and then further than that, you’ve got – well, you could include Kendal in a way but not – not really. You get up to Carlisle and you’ve got the Eden flowing into the Solway. Now the – the original crossings of those rivers, going back, in some cases Roman times, of course were at the places where you could get across either by fording or the crossing was not too severe in terms of width. And the towns developed round those crossing points, like Warrington in the south, Wigan to some extent – I could have mentioned the river flowing out at – out through Wigan – Preston, of course, fundamental there, all based on the lower crossings by the Romans and others – others before them, I suppose you might say, and up in Carlisle. And the pattern developed from that. But of course, they were comparatively small towns in their day, and as traffic grew they became impossible traffic wise. And – and this is something we wanted to put right.

[58:20]

How did you find a job though up in Lancaster?

In Lancashire?

100 Harry Yeadon Page 101 C1379/82 Track 4

Yep.

How did I find it?

Yep.

Well, at the beginning when I joined, of course the – the war had only just finished anyway and the – there wasn’t the money for big schemes. I found myself involved in – in maintenance and, if you like, minor improvements. And then, as the staff was growing, I got the opportunity of moving into the motorway bridge design section of the department, who were actively – the chaps in there were actually involved with the early stages of bridges for Preston Bypass. So I got in on the tail end of that, found myself involved in almost a liaison role between the design office and the – the construction site, and then – and then I was switched out on site, supervising the bridge construction. So that’s how it all started. And as you probably – I don’t know whether you’re familiar of the – with the role of the Engineer, capital E. Does that mean anything to you? Ah. Well, if you’ve got a civil engineering contract, there are three – three people, three important bodies, involved. There’s the client, somebody who is responsible for the, erm, well, the design, basically, but also for the statutory procedures and for, erm, the financing. Now in our case, because we were agents for the Department of Transport, the county council was the client. Then you’ve got the Engineer, capital E, who is an engineer normally, should be, a chartered civil engineer. And the Engineer is responsible for the design, the preparation of the contract documents and the supervision of construction, to see that the contract is adhered to, deal with any problems as they arise during construction. Because even with the site investigation, which I mentioned, you can never get it right. It’s always – there are always problems which were unforeseen. And – and the Engineer’s role is – is that. And in the case of the county council, it was the county surveyor and bridge master, because it was his department, that did the design, etc. On site, you’ve got the contractor. The contractor’s actually carrying out the work to the specification, to the drawings which have been prepared and so on, and – and of course, is getting paid every month for measured work, etc. And the – er, for the Engineer to operate properly, he appoints a resident engineer, someone responsible directly to work with

101 Harry Yeadon Page 102 C1379/82 Track 4 the contractor. And I say with ‘cause this is important. It wasn’t a case of them and us, you know. It was a cooperative business, which we tried to achieve. And so the resident engineer could have quite a big staff, because you’ve got clerks of works and inspectors and so on. And so I was the assistant resident engineer, responsible for supervising the bridge construction on Preston Bypass. When that job finished, I got moved down to the, er, Stretford-Eccles Bypass, as it was known, which is now part of the M60, with Barton High Level bridge as being the fundamental point crossing the ship canal. And that was a real problem. Did I mention this before?

I think you’ve mentioned this before, yes.

Yes, about the Liverpool steel erectors and so on.

The contractors, yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so I went down there. I was in effect the resident engineer for that bridge, even though I wasn’t named as such, because the resident engineer, who was a very experienced steel man that worked out in India and goodness knows what – and he was responsible at the same time for the construction of Thelwall Bridge as well as Barton High Level bridge. And so I – nominally I was working under him. And then when that finished, erm, I was appointed resident engineer for the section of M6 between Preston and Lancaster. Erm, and then – what happened after that?

[1:03:50]

Oh, and then I – did I tell you about the road construction units? Did I mention that? No?

You’ve mentioned it, but …

102 Harry Yeadon Page 103 C1379/82 Track 4

Did I? The road construction units were a partnership between the various county councils that had the resources and the staff, and – and the Department of Transport people. And the first directorate was opened in – in Preston, with Jim Drake as the director. And this was jointly staffed by, erm, county personnel and, erm, Department of Transport personnel. And I – he was seconded and I was seconded as superintending engineer (construction) [requests bracket, construction, bracket], which meant that, whereas he was the director for the whole of the motorway trunk road network in – in the North West, all the way from the Staffordshire border, right up to the Scottish border, in effect, or north of Carlisle. That’s another story. And so I had the role of ensuring that the contracts were prepared properly and let properly and were supervised properly, even though in some cases consulting engineers were – were involved, but I was the direct link, which meant, of course, that I had pretty good knowledge of the – the North West of a whole. And so – have I gone far enough on that?

[1:05:30]

I think that’s a wonderful overview, yes. I guess we’ve got about fifteen, twenty minutes left today.

Oh have we? Oh right.

So I’m going to run off in a bit, but I’d like to, for the next sort of twenty minutes or so, the rest of today, rather than sort of talk about the development of motorways and your career in particular, I’d like to sort of focus in a little bit on I guess the sort of social history of what life is actually like working as a civil engineer just after the Second World War. And I was wondering if we could take your time in – where were you actually working in Lancaster – Lancashire? I keep calling in Lancaster – Lancashire. [laughs] I should know.

Well, of course, there was – there was nothing going on. After the war finished, it was – it was essentially housing. And in fact, we had a particular problem with

103 Harry Yeadon Page 104 C1379/82 Track 4 cement on – it is on Samlesbury Bridge. And the reason for that, although the – the cement manufacturer, the main one, was up the Ribble Valley with the limestone up there – and we found that we were getting very high alkalinity in the lichen [ph] which comes off the – the concrete. Samlesbury Bridge, for example. You know, wandering round with bits of litmus paper and measuring. And – and this was quite a – we thought, a real problem. And the reason for it was that they weren’t burning the cement to the amount that they should have been doing, because, as you know, the – in making cement, there’s what you describe as a burning process and that would drive out all the high alkalinity out of the material. And in consequence, although the cement was perfectly sound in terms of getting strength, any lichen [ph] which came out of it was highly alkaline. And this – this – it ceased to be a problem. It – it worked its way out. And of course, once you’d got waterproofing on the bridge decks and so on, water wasn’t getting in contact with it to the same extent. But it was quite an interesting point, that. So there wasn’t much construction going on. Now the only major job which was going on through the North West was the Haweswater Aqueduct, coming down from Haweswater in the Lake District, through to Manchester, and that was a major project. But that was unique in a way. It had been – Haweswater had been started as a – as a dam before the war, so, you know, it was envisaged that there would be a pipeline, because originally one of – one of the main sources of water in Manchester was Thirlmere. And there’s a Thirlmere Aqueduct, which came right down through – through Lancashire, so this was a follow on from that. So that was – that was one important point. And of course, as I said, when I joined the department – and of course the aspirations were there, we were going to do things and – but of course it took a bit of time to get off the ground when I joined in 1948. So you were dealing with fairly mundane things initially, until I got involved in the, erm, motorway bridges.

[1:09:05]

Where actually is the department?

It was in County Hall, outside Preston Station, which is an interesting thing. County Hall was built there in the – way, way back, because, of course, people came from

104 Harry Yeadon Page 105 C1379/82 Track 4 other parts of the county by train, so put it near the station, which was interesting because, when the – the steam engines, coal driven, came up through Preston – there’s quite a gradient out of Preston Station and the trains used to go [makes chugging noise]. And if you had the windows open in summer, you got all the black smoke coming through the windows [laughs], ‘cause you were right alongside the railway. Anyway, that’s by the way.

What are the offices actually like in there? Could you describe them to me?

Erm, well, we had a floor of – of part of the building. It was in two parts. There was the old part and – and a newish part, built in the – I suppose it must have been in the late ‘20s, early ‘30s. And that wasn’t bad. And there were four big drawing offices. They were fundamental. One was – two were – were roads and improvements and so on, and – no, there was a third one as well. And then there was a – there was a bridges one, another sort of general thing. And then there were a lot of sub-offices for the senior staff and – and the corridor with Jim Drake in an office there and – and his deputy and chief administrative officer. And, erm, so that was – it was quite simple, really. And then, once the – the department started to grow in size, a large slice of it was moved out – I only spent a very short time there, at a place called Prospect Hill, which was an old house outside – south of Preston, which was going to be acquired anyway for the – the M6. And so that became offices. And we often used to say there ought to be a campaign medal for people that served there, you know [laughs]. And other offices, sub-offices, were used in Preston – were opened up, because we were growing so big. And we moved into a place called Winckley Square in about 19… Ooh, 1970, I suppose, something like that. And – and that became the home until quite recently, after I – long after I’d retired, in the last few years, when the old department as we knew it, you know, I had a white collar staff of – of 500, you know. It wasn’t peanuts. And, er, 500 plus, ‘cause you’ve got people out on site as well. And they – and of course, it was killed off. And that department – the department as we knew it has gone. And in fact it’s – it’s really known as the Department for Planning and Engineering. Engineering comes last, which is a shame. So the number of engineers which are employed there are minimal and they’re mainly concerned

105 Harry Yeadon Page 106 C1379/82 Track 4 with small jobs and maintenance and so on, no really big jobs at all as we knew it. So it’s different.

Why did you say that people who worked at Prospect Hill deserved a medal?

Well, it was off – offbeat, you know, and the conditions weren’t very good. No proper heating and, you know, we were – it was all very primitive. County Hall was okay, if you were in there. But of course, if you were in there, you were at the beck and call of – of Jim Drake, who used to stick his office out of – stick his, erm, head out of the office door and bellow down the county, ‘Where the hell are you, Mr so and so?’ Nobody was known by Christian names, by the way. Even his secretary wasn’t. She was always Mrs Booth. And you were always – it was only when I started travelling around with him and going to the States and places like that, that I – my Christian name was – was used. But it was quite – it was the old time stuff.

[1:14:00]

What’s it actually like, a day’s work at County Hall?

Well, erm, you got there at nine o’clock and you worked until you were ready to home. Nominally, I suppose, it was – I don’t know. I can’t remember now. It might have been half past five or something. I don’t know. But, you know, we didn’t stick to hours. And we didn’t have – originally we didn’t have any clocking in facilities or anything like that. And it was – it wasn’t a bad environment really, you know. We had a canteen on the ground floor and a chap who made the tea, and always used to say whenever he was – he was a draughtsman and he made the tea for everybody. And he always reckoned he was using money. He used to come round and collect the tea money. What it meant was he wasn’t making as much profit as he thought he should have been [laughs], you know. It was very laidback. And everything stops for tea. You know, we – we didn’t pull any punches there. But the – the senior staff, there were one or two who worked there before the war, you know, real old timers, in assistant county surveyors and so on, and – and they found it a different world with us

106 Harry Yeadon Page 107 C1379/82 Track 4 coming in, you know, the – the new lot. But we got on very well with them. They – I think they appreciated our …

Why were you different?

Well, I think – coming back to what I said before, you know, military involvement I think had a lot to do with it, quite frankly. Yes, I think so. And, you know, I remember one of them – and I was getting a bit tetchy, the sort of work I was doing, I didn’t think was up to my calling, if you like, and this got known round the department, that – because I’d mentioned about going – working abroad because, you know, there were jobs abroad. You could get a job abroad easy enough. And one of them, a chap called Bob Wilkinson, who was assistant county surveyor, coming – coming to find me one day and said, ‘Come in my office. What’s this about you wanting to go abroad?’ [Laughs] And I said, ‘Well, it was only in passing,’ and so on. And of course, what – what you did, if you – if you performed reasonably well and got on well with people, you got moved to another job, which was a better job. And so you – you got a – you got a promotion in a way. So in that sense you didn’t hide under a bushel, you know. You made your views home. And you took a great interest in the – the affairs of the department. We had a County Engineering Society, which Jim Drake set up, and you were expected to attend meetings, which were always held on a Wednesday in the month. And the reason it was on that particular day was that the Highways and Bridges Committee of the county council met on that day and you knew that – and Jim Drake knew that he would be in that day. And so he set the scene going and you were expected to be there. You know, meetings starting with tea at five, half past five or something, six o’clock, and, you know, going on to perhaps eight o’clock or half past eight. And then, of course, there were the professional institutions, like the Institution of Civil Engineers and the Institution of Highway Engineers, which were encouraged anyway. So there was quite an active, you might say semi-social, attitude prevailing.

[1:18:11]

What actually happens in, say, a County Engineering Society meeting?

107 Harry Yeadon Page 108 C1379/82 Track 4

Well, people were encouraged, now this was important, particularly the younger ones, to – to prepare a paper on something they were working on, something of particular interest, present this paper at a meeting. And you might get two of them at the same meeting. And this was for what Jim Drake had set up as a county surveyor’s prize and he gave a book, and when I was county surveyor I – well, in fact, that motorway book, you may have seen it, and giving a prize for a paper by a youngster. But apart from that, there were people being invited in, maybe from other departments from the county council, you know, to let people – and also, of course, big department, you’d always got somebody with an interesting job that the others in the department wouldn’t know what was going on. So it was a good way of – of saying what was happening. So, you know, it was very interesting in that sense. And then somebody last year, when we decided reluctantly, because it changed its name reluctantly – of course I was retired, and quite a few of us went, retired people. It had changed its name to the Society for Engineering and Environment in Lancashire, bringing environment in because that brought the planners in, and we thought we were going to get quite an active involvement with the county planning people, which we didn’t, and the whole thing gradually ran down. But at the moment we’re down to a hotpot once a year [laughs]. But – so, you know, that was an important thing to keep people informed.

[1:20:13]

What are you actually doing in the office on a – what do you actually do in the office down at County Hall?

When I was there? Well, take, for example, an improvement scheme. There was a junction, difficult junction, bad accident record and so on, do something about this. And so you’d finish up by working up a design for a change, or even a road widening scheme. You worked something up. I mean, for example, the East Lancashire road, which you probably know, the A580, running from Liverpool to Manchester, which was opened by King George V in 1934 – and that was a single carriageway but the land was acquired – this was a Department of Transport trunk road but carried out by

108 Harry Yeadon Page 109 C1379/82 Track 4 the county council. And the land was acquired for a proper dual carriageway road. And one of the first jobs that I got, major jobs, was to bring that road up to dual carriageway standard, you know, getting out a design for the whole length, and it went ahead. But of course, that wasn’t satisfactory as a long term solution, and of course we finished up with the M62 between Liverpool and M6 and on to Manchester, because that was what was necessary, something of that order.

In that case of doing that road widening design, bear in mind I’m not a civil engineer, I have no idea how one goes about widening a road or designing a widening of road. Could you actually talk me through how you would go about working up that scheme to widen a road?

Well, in that case, where it was comparatively new, 1934, you know, the drawings and records were already available, so it was fairly simple in that – in that sense. You didn’t need to do a lot of survey work at all if you were widening. It was where you were building a new road that you had to get a line in the first place. But the line was already there. And the big problem, and a very bad accident record on it, was the very primitive junctions that were put in and farmers with rights of access onto it, because it was an all purpose road, etc. And this – these were the problems, rather than you would find with a completely new road. You weren’t looking for a line. But when you’re looking for a line, it’s a different exercise. You’re going out on your feet and walking the line. And, well, you’re looking at the maps you’ve got, the Ordinance Survey maps, as a starting point, and you’re looking where property is. And then you – you do a survey of alternatives, usually alternative routes. And by the way, I might mention that the M65 through and around Blackburn was an absolute disaster as far as public participation was concerned. The department went mad and they got out six alternative lines themselves. We’d had to hand over any – any involvement. And this was published in a blaze of glory. And of course the immediate reaction is, anybody living near one of those lines would say, ‘Oh, I don’t want that one. I don’t want that one. I don’t want that one,’ you know. And it was an absolute flop. And – and they came up at the end of the day – they had one solution, which was an all purpose solution. And we said – we in the county and others, all the local authorities, said, ‘Look, we’re not having this at all.’ And I got out a report at the time and Linda

109 Harry Yeadon Page 110 C1379/82 Track 4

Chalker, does that mean anything to you, who was the minister at the time, and we all went – we went down in the biggest deputation I’d ever been on. And, er, I’m the only one in it [ph] – and it was all party, you know, they were all for it, a motorway solution. Because we’d built this section of motorway from Burnley onwards, you know, and it was absolute nonsense. The Department of Transport, really. And – and the only – did I tell you this? The only opposition was a Conservative MP.

Den Dover?

Dover, Den Dover. God, anyway, we sorted that one out [laughs].

[1:25:05]

I’m interested though in this business about walking the line.

Oh yes.

And I presume – can you actually talk me – because to me it just sounds like you’re just walking from one place to another, but there must be more to it. What’s involved in walking the line?

Well no, you’d have something on a – on a map of some kind, whether it was an Ordinance Survey you’d put a line on, and then you’d walk along that line and look at what was there, you know. And you might look at a number of alternative lines and then decide, well, you know, this is – this is the best bet. This is the one that we’ll pursue. And then of course this is where it gets difficult, because opponents will come in and say, ‘Well, that’s not good enough, you want to be so and so, so and so,’ you know. So it’s a running battle for, you know, in some cases several years.

Are you walking the line yourself or are there other people doing it too?

Oh no, I walked the line. I mean, if you take the, erm … Oh, Jim Drake was a great man for walking the line with his dog on a Sunday, and you’d know all about it on the

110 Harry Yeadon Page 111 C1379/82 Track 4

Monday, you know. He’d been out on some – some walk or other and said, ‘Look, I think we ought to look at so and so,’ you know. Oh, very active in that sense.

Are you doing any sort of survey work as you go along, making notes or anything like that?

Oh, you’d make some notes, obviously. And then, if you decide to pursue it, then you want to get some levels on it. This is important. You know, what the ground is like in terms of level, you know, it’s above Ordinance Survey levels, you know, that sort of thing. So you can draw a profile of the existing ground on the line you’ve been looking at and see what’s involved there, and then if – if you think you’ve got it right in terms of – of a nominal profile, then you go ahead with a site investigation. But that’s a fairly late stage. But there was a lot of work to do before then as far as the public are concerned. And of course, Jim Drake – I keep on about him but he was unique. I reckon he was the first public relations man before the term was ever thought of, because he’d go anywhere at any time to meet anybody. And – and the fact that he was there, based in County Hall, and the public would know that they could always get at him in the future – he wasn’t here today and gone tomorrow like perhaps – I don’t – I’m not being unfair, like a consulting engineer coming in for the one off job. And I think this was one of the prime considerations. A Lancastrian with a strong Lancastrian accent and – and the public got on extremely well with him, and he’d always be very friendly with them. You know, it certainly helped.

I’m going to have to run off and catch a train in about ten minutes, so thank you very much.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, is that it?

I think that’s it for today. Thank you.

Where do we go next?

Well [laughs], I think Preston Bypass next.

111 Harry Yeadon Page 112 C1379/82 Track 4

[End of Track 4]

112 Harry Yeadon DRAFT Page 113 C1379/82 Track 5

Track 5

You mentioned there were a couple of other things you wanted to talk about as regards Churchill ARK tanks in Italy and their use in crossing the Po.

Yes. The problem was, particularly in – in Northern Italy, the water courses, which certainly affected the – the Po Valley, and it was so easy for a tank to get bogged down if it was trying to cross a water course with flood banks on either side. And this is where the – the ARK and the AVRE came in, a means of making the crossing much more acceptable, by first of all blasting the – the flood bank with the AVRE, as it was called, which was Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers, the name of it. And – and this was followed up by the ARK, which was a Churchill tank with the top taken off it and, erm, ramps at either end of the – of the tank, which were held up, erm, before they were released into the – erm, the water course. The men inside were, of course, held – they were protected, of course, by the – the tank, and they were able to get out comparatively easily. It was interesting that the picture which I showed you, which was the crossing of the – of the Po, where we had – they were very heavy, of course, because they were not only the tank itself but the ramps on either end, where – when the – the bridge had been completed, the – erm, one of the connectors to the Bailey bridge, which was a floating Bailey, failed and – and the – the tank, or the ARK as it was called, of course disappeared into the – into the Po [laughs]. And the men got out, of course, because the rules were that if you ever crossed a – a water course of any kind, which we were liable to be affected, you kept the – the, erm, openings open. Sounds a bit odd. But anyway, you – the men got out alright. But it was quite – quite an embarrassment, really, because, as I mentioned previously, the – that crossing was critical to the whole operation, because there’d been access to the northern side of the crossing by essentially infantry holding a way across. But the whole operation depended on getting the tanks over, and to lose a – one of the units was quite – quite something, whereas – and the whole of the Eighth Army was sitting there, waiting for the – for this bridge to be completed before the tank could get over. It was a – the closing stages, of course, of the operations in – in Italy, ‘cause the Germans were on the retreat.

113 Harry Yeadon DRAFT Page 114 C1379/82 Track 5

[04:55]

And, of course, the big issue became, politically, call it politically, the Yugoslavs that were coming up from – from the Balkans and trying to get their hands on – on Trieste. And it was a case of who got there first. And of course we – we were quite short of resources, in the sense that we moved fairly rapidly and it was quite out of the question for the whole of – the whole of the force to – to continue through to Trieste. So the – as it so happened, the New Zealanders, who were there very much in – in strength as a division, they went ahead, but we had some of our – our units attached to the New Zealanders, who got to a point on – erm, near Trieste, which was the – the Isonzo River, which flowed out into the northern part of the Adriatic. And I was sent out to – to establish contact with – with the New Zealanders and – not knowing what I was going to meet. You know, just with a jeep and – etc, and coming – wondering where I was going. And [coughs] eventually arriving at a place called – ooh, dear me, I’ve forgotten the name offhand, but it was quite a big city, if you like. And going over the – the river, the Isonzo, to the other side, where the Yugoslavs were. And they were, of course, not very well equipped, you know. They had quite a lot of horse transport, etc, and they had machine gun posts along – almost at every corner. And of course, we were all supposed to be on the same side anyway – until I heard in the distance some pipes going and found my way to – I forget which one it was, but it was a guards unit. I got in there and – and they were having a bit of a ball, if you like, or ceremonial thing, showing that the allies were very much involved.

How did you regard the Yugoslavs in Italy at that point?

Well, erm, not very well. They – Tito, of course, was the leader, and the second – the next stage of the operation, when it had been established, we’d got enough strength up there to hold the position on Trieste, we got in there first. But it wasn’t far to follow this down to a place called, er, Pola, or Pula [ph], as it was. You may have heard of it. And this was about, I suppose, fifty miles, something of that order, and we had a force down there. But the Yugoslavs – and there were one or two Baileys that were built on this route, where demolition had taken place of bridges. And – and they were – they didn’t hesitate to take parts of the bridges away if it suited them. For example, the

114 Harry Yeadon DRAFT Page 115 C1379/82 Track 5 simple things like the timber decking of the – of the bridge. Nothing of any substantial nature but it was quite – quite important to keep that route involved until the United Nations, who were actively involved in all this, sorted themselves out.

[09:40]

Because Pola, of course, was essentially Italian and it was felt that the – the Italians, who by that time, of course, as – you probably know the history of things. Anyway, the Italians changed sides in the – in Italy anyway onto our side. But it was important to establish Pola and allow people to move out of Pola if they so wished. And eventually they – and the United Nations decided that the allies should have, er, Trieste and the Yugoslavs should have the, erm, Istria [ph], as it was called, that area. And it sorted itself in time. But it was – it was a bit delicate at the time.

Are there any delicate moments you remember in particular? Times when you personally had problems out there?

Yes, exactly. And, you know, I was only comparatively [laughs] junior in the – in the matter. But we managed to keep going in – in Pola, but we had – because of the delicate nature of what was happening in the United Nations, the – we had a tank landing ship in Pola, which had – had a very good harbour way, way back from the days of the Austrian empire, which was – it was part of – of that part of the Balkans, really. And so the – the problem was that we were – we just had a – a – a – a [laughs] brigade in the – in Pola, but the problems are – the problems were that, if Tito decided to try to push us out of Pola, ‘cause, you know, they’d plenty of manpower, then we would line up to go down to the harbour and get on this – on this freight – sorry, er, on the ship, to go off to Malta. That didn’t happen at it – I’m sorry. The – that actually didn’t help at all. But, erm, eventually it was – it was solved – I’m sorry, I’m struggling. My, erm – and the Italians, who wanted to go to Malta, or go – I have to s – dear, dear, my – I do apologise.

Do you want to pause for a moment, or …?

115 Harry Yeadon DRAFT Page 116 C1379/82 Track 5

Yes.

[13:25 pause]

What was your commanding officer’s response to the loss of the Churchill tank into the – into the Po?

[Laughs] He was quite a character. And he – it was the – it was always necessary to be sent – to report with [ph] – to the – er, sorry. The, erm … every night, as to what we’d been doing during the war, or during the wettle [ph]. Oh dear, I’m struggling. Erm … and he sent a … oh dear, I’m struggling. Erm … he, erm, he reported that a … oh dear. Erm … to what it – oh dear.

Shall we just take a break for a minute and maybe just get a cup of tea?

Yes.

[End of Track 5]

116 Harry Yeadon Page 117 C1379/82 Track 6

Track 6

… was quite a character, Johnny Walker, who had been commissioned before the war. And he’d – comparatively young. And he worked out in – worked out in the Sudan and so on. And as I say, he hadn’t been home for twenty years. He wasn’t married. But a great character.

What did he do when you lost the ARK into the – into the stream – or the Po, rather?

Oh well, we – as far as I know, it’s still there [laughs]. It was never- never – it was never recovered. And in fact, he said in the sitrap [ph], daily sitrap [ph], that naval recovery would be – would be necessary, but I don’t know. I don’t know. And of course, eventually he was – was a permanent secretary – a permanent, erm … The structure was constructed. And in fact, apart from – from that, I found myself working right up in the – in the north, when the war had finished, trying to ensure, while the controversy was going on as far as the Yugoslavs were concerned – erm, working with the local civilian engineers in building bridges and so on, because the – until such time as the – it was resolved as far as the construction was concerned, erm, it was necessary to have – I don’t know if you remember the – the way of getting up into – into Europe as such, because the closer you got to the – the, erm, Yugoslavs, the difficulter it was, because of course the – the war with Japan, of course, had not been resolved and it was necessary to have a better communication system into Austria and so on. And the route, the alternative route, which it was necessary to improve, was through Cortina, which I’ve no doubt you – you’ve heard of. So it was quite a good route through – through there. And managed to get some skiing out of it, anyway [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way.

[03:54]

I guess we’ve talked quite a bit about how your military career came to an end. But you mentioned that you carried on in the TA for a while after the war as well.

117 Harry Yeadon Page 118 C1379/82 Track 6

Well, I didn’t carry on straight away. It was purely and simply that there were quite a few of us working in – in one of our offices in East Lancashire and I was very much involved. We were almost running – a squadron through our office, because it was at the time of – of Suez and – and so on, so we were very much involved. And I ‘d left – I’d been released and eventually, of course, I joined the TA, and we more or less ran a squadron from East Lancashire. And it was at the time of Suez, which was a bit delicate, as I’m sure you remember, the history of that period. It was interesting in a way, because I mentioned Bailey, and we had a Bailey bridge, quite a substantial amount of material, as an emergency bridging. And one of the things that I got involved in – there’s a big ordnance factory near Chorley in Lancashire, and it was all – it all became very – er, very important in opening up this – parts of this ordnance factory, which had been more or less run down. And it was a case of getting into these areas, which of course were involved in filling ammunition and so on, all with drug and – I nearly said drug and [inaud] [laughs], hush-hush stuff. And they asked if we could provide this army Bailey bridging equipment. And so I set off with a contractor, who hadn’t a clue about Bailey. I think – I think there was only one chap who had ever seen a Bailey, and so I made him the sergeant straight away [laughs]. And we – to get access into some of the areas of this ordnance complex, because they were all sunken roads and – and so on within the – it – security and, of course, secure – so it was a quite interesting experience for a time, training men on the spot [laughs] and building something.

Is that at the time of Suez then?

Sorry?

Did you say that was the time of Suez?

Oh yes, very much so, yes. And it was all – it was quite interesting.

So were you doing that job as a civilian, in your civil engineering job, or as a military engineer?

118 Harry Yeadon Page 119 C1379/82 Track 6

Oh yes. It was nothing to do with the TA as such. It was – it was the department, the county council department, that had the equipment. And the – a deal was struck with the, I suppose, Ministry of Defence, to put this facility in place. And very useful, I suppose, yeah.

[08:00]

What sort of things did you do in the TA once you had joined it?

Er, well, we were – we had, of course, apart from anything else, chaps that had done national service and were required to continue involvement with the TA after they’d done their – their spell fulltime. So that was important. And we had at one stage a full build up of a division. A division is about – well, depends on various things, about 15,000 men involved. And we built up our numbers and off we went to Salisbury Plain and spent a week on movement and so on and building things, building bridges, etc. We weren’t involved actively in mine clearance or anything like that because there wasn’t any, fortunately. But certainly in terms of bridging, build up our expertise.

How much of your time does it take up, being in the TA in the 1950s?

Well, it did, but of course we were very actively involved, apart from normal, you know, at weekends and that sort of thing. We were very active in that sense. And we were highly effective because we had quite a lot of expertise there. Various places, Ribble Valley, for example, and doing – building a bridge at night, because the important – and using our normal manpower techniques, because – and this was interesting, because – going back a bit, the – as you probably know, there was a clear split between the eastern part of the – of the war, the Eighth Army, and the Fifth Army, which is essentially American. Not saying we didn’t work together or anything like that, but they – they had some Bailey equipment, but of course they – in a way, we were using Bailey properly and the Americans were using it rather differently, because – I won’t go into technical details, but it was different.

119 Harry Yeadon Page 120 C1379/82 Track 6

[11:00]

And then, of course, the – as soon as the war had finished, of course, the – the Americans, in particular, started pulling out, going out to the Far East, and essentially, er, the Indian divisions – because we’d quite a lot of Indians involved, several divisions involved, and – very much a mixed bag of nationalities involved. So a clear distinction.

When you were in the TA after the war, did you think of it as something serious or was it just a hobby activity, as it were?

Oh, it was – it was serious. You know, we could have been called at any time, more or less. Of course, national service was still in being, and – erm, but we were never mobilised, as such. But we were available if necessary.

Did you have many colleagues from your civilian job who were military engineers in the TA as well?

Oh yes, yes. As it so happened, in the department of the county council, in the county surveyor’s and bridges – county surveyor and bridge master’s department, the majority of the staff tended to be ex service people anyway. Although there was – there was a gap that – it wasn’t a continual operation. And then, of course, the – once things calmed down a bit, erm, the motorway programme started to take off and, of course, I was too busy, so I resigned from the TA. I mean, I could have stayed on, but it wasn’t very convenient. And I’d married at that time and of course, you found that – not only trying to get things moving in terms of the motorway programme, plus bringing up a family and so on [laughs], so I’d probably done a whack. And things had quietened down because Suez, of course, had finished. But it was delicate a bit when the Suez pilot was – he, erm … Once the –

Canal?

120 Harry Yeadon Page 121 C1379/82 Track 6

Suez operation was in – in being. It was a bit of a disaster in a way. I don’t know whether you’ve studied the history of Suez, etc, but it wasn’t a – it was a bit of a mess, really, wasn’t it?

What did you think about it at the time?

I thought that hopefully it would go away without losing rights of using the Suez Canal, which was the main thing. Even though, of course, the route out to Egypt and the Middle East, of course, went the long way around, because it was a bit dangerous going through the Mediterranean ‘cause, you know, the – a dangerous place to be, the Mediterranean. It was actually safer going the long way around South Africa. I wasn’t involved in that, but – we didn’t know where we were going at the time. We were mobilised to go out somewhere and we were given tropical kit, so we assumed that even the early stages before D-Day, etc, that – before then, erm, it was still not the way to go, through the Mediterranean.

You mentioned – actually, shall we pause – actually, I haven’t let you have your tea yet, so why don’t we …

[End of Track 6]

121 Harry Yeadon Page 122 C1379/82 Track 7

Track 7

I was wondering if we could talk for a little bit about Preston Bypass and the building of that as it’s sort of the point at which we left off at last week, really, or last time. What was your own personal involvement in the Preston Bypass?

Not a lot in the early stages. The fundamental thing was the … the 1949, erm [pause]. The – well, can I go back a bit? When Jim Drake was first appointed, one of the things that he wanted to do when he – he became involved was to make a, erm … The 1939 road plan for Lancashire, that was the key thing. I should have dug this out. I’ve got a copy upstairs. By a road plan, it wasn’t just a piece of paper like a plan. It was a hardback volume about that thick. And it looked at the whole of the road network in the – in the county, which had been developed over, of course, generations, and the road network was a – was appalling really in terms of traffic moving, etc, and major traffic routes passing right through existing conurbations. And it was a – a pretty awful situation. And so Jim Drake looked at the whole situation, looked at the – what was necessary. Certainly one of the fundamental points was a new route right up through – through Lancashire. Erm … the – analysing what was – what was happening, what was necessary, and, er, what would be involved in terms of – of the cost of – of trying to get an improved route. Because before the war, before Jim Drake became involved, there were proposals to merely improve the existing route right up through Lancashire, which obviously was quite ridiculous because the amount of property that would have been involved in going through places like Preston, for example, Lancaster, further south, Warrington, Wigan, places like Lancaster, all the way – it went right – the existing road – existing roads went right through the heart of those towns, those cities. You couldn’t do anything proper at all. It was out of – and it was out of context at all, completely. And he came up with proposals for a completely new network rather than trying to improve the existing route. The – Preston was a critical point. I’m not saying that it was necessarily worse than any of the other – the other towns. But some work had been done before the war in looking at a – a possible route. But of course it never got anywhere when the war started. And, er … so a line was investigated, bypassing Preston, and this line was protected against development, certainly in the post-war –

122 Harry Yeadon Page 123 C1379/82 Track 7 immediate pre-war period and post-war period, preventing new development, housing in particular, which was predominant, of course, that time. So there was a certain amount of background. So a team was set up to go into this in much more detail, in terms of fixing a line, and I was only partially involved at that stage. But a line was – was chosen, which wasn’t too difficult, really, in terms of fixing a line. But of course, as I’m sure you appreciate, in finding a line for a motorway, there are certain fundamental things, and that is ensuring that the – the line, both in terms of the profile of the motorway, erm, in terms of particularly the earth moving, because that’s where the – the big items, the big difficulties, are. And the idea, of course, was hopefully – you’d never achieve it in principle, but you were – you were trying to ensure that you used as much excavated material as possible to form embankments. So the profile was a – a critical thing, in getting the right – not only the right line in terms of avoiding property and difficult areas, but also trying to establish this balance of – of cut and fill. You never achieve it, of course, but you try. And of course it depends on the – the excavating material coming out of the cuttings in terms of the use – which the materials could be put into embankments. So it was a delicate business, establishing both the alignment in – in plan and the alignment in profile.

[08:00]

What’s actually, you know, the most important factor in deciding where to put a road like the Preston Bypass?

Yes.

What is the most important in where you decide to put it?

Well, the most important point, in the delicate situation of those days, was trying to avoid the effect on property, particularly when housing was short following the war. That was one fundamental point, because you’ve got to sell it to the public anyway. And – and Jim Drake, who was – I reckon he was the best public relations chap before the – the term was ever applied. He’d go anywhere to talk to anybody at any time, pretty well, to persuade people that it was the right thing to do. And the effect of that,

123 Harry Yeadon Page 124 C1379/82 Track 7 and all the work that went into trying to get the best solution, was selling it to the public. No public inquiry at all. And that was – followed in subsequent motorways as well. So no public inquiry. And one thing, of course, because we were essentially Lancastrians, we knew we had to live with it afterwards, which is important. And it’s no good going out and telling people what was going to happen unless you’re completely honest about it. And in consequence, the amount of property demolition was minimal, minimal. So – sorry?

What did Jim Drake say that was so convincing to people?

Erm, well, he was – he was a Lancastrian born and bred and, you know, called a spade a spade, etc. And he was a bluff Lancastrian. And everybody worked very hard, extremely hard. The fact – the fact that the majority of the staff involved were of the same breed, if you like – time was of no object, you know. You worked damn hard. You didn’t work to definite hours. You worked to timetables and got things done. And I think this was a fundamental thing. It wasn’t an easy life by any means.

[10:50]

And although, as I say, I was involved in those – those early days as such, but I did get moved from what I was working on, which essentially was improvement of – of roads, existing roads, I was transferred to the motorway bridge design section. And one – one reason that I was anxious to further my career and in order to become fully qualified as a chartered engineer, it was essential you had appropriate knowledge and experience. And Jim Drake was very – very good in that sense, giving people opportunities. So I moved into the bridge design section, working on the – the final stages of design of some of the – some of the bridges on Preston Bypass. And – and then I found myself – because there was so much national interest in Preston Bypass, I found myself organising visitors [laughs]. It might seem a bit out – taking people out on the job and showing them what was going on. You know, people from all over the country were coming to see what was going on.

What sort of people?

124 Harry Yeadon Page 125 C1379/82 Track 7

Well, essentially engineers, of course. The big issue, of course, with Preston Bypass, was keeping the cost down, because government were short of money. And we tried to do the cheapest job and it was recognised. And fortunately, as it so happened, being quoted – the job has been quoted as a guinea pig, or an experiment. And that’s on record and you may have found that in – when you’ve had a chance to look at that book. And this was very important in – in many respects. One was the earthworks, trying to make as much use as we could. And the weather, as it turned out, was pretty appalling. It couldn’t have been a worse spell of weather for – I mean, it was said to be a two year contract, or contracts. So that was – that was a key factor. The bridges were – fortunately the Department of Transport, of course, were paying the costs, and they were essentially – for the statutory procedures, we were agents for the department, county council acting as agents. And of course, one of the fundamental points was that the – the county council were one hundred percent behind Jim Drake. And we had a fortunate situation whereby politically it changed its colour frequently, shall I put it that way [laughs]. Every few years there was this change of Conservative control and Labour control. And yet the two sides got on extremely well together. And the reason for that was that Lancashire, of course, was on – on decline, because the coal industry had pretty well come to an end. The textile industry was on the decline. And – and the old towns of Lancashire, of course, were – were likely to die, you know. It was as harsh as that. And nobody wanted that. So everybody was altogether of the same mind, to further the future of Lancashire.

When you say that the government was changing, do you mean the local government in Lancashire or nationally?

No, not by – not by that time. Nobody was very enthusiastic about any reorganisation immediately after the war. It was never – never really tested, although there was a lot of pushing from Lancashire, not to change the – the politics of the place, but to change the approach to doing something. I think that was the fundamental thing. And because of the continual pressure politically and otherwise – and eventually the deputations and goodness knows what, the government decided that they would go ahead and support what Lancashire was trying to do, which was quite important,

125 Harry Yeadon Page 126 C1379/82 Track 7 really, and surprising in a way compared with other parts of the country. But it was pressure, pressure, pressure. Meanwhile, of course, the county council supported Jim Drake in terms of staffing. Staffing levels built up tremendously, building teams and – and so on. And, you know, we built a massive organisation.

[17:35]

Did you think that the Preston Bypass was important?

Oh yes, very much so.

Why?

Because I realised it was – it was perhaps the forerunner of a complete network affecting other parts of the – of the county and in the long term other parts of – of Lancashire, including East Lancashire, where the decline was perhaps greater, with coal and textiles being affected. And that’s where I came from, so I knew the – I knew the setup fundamentally. So I, and not the only one, was very enthusiastic about this. You know, we’d got a future. And although initially things were rather in the doldrums until we got the okay and I was – quite frankly, I was minded to – to pack up and – and go and work abroad. And I was persuaded – well, I won’t say persuaded, but it was pointed out, look, don’t – don’t talk about that. Things will improve and we will get cracking and we will do things. And it was all a case of doing things. And that was Jim Drake’s philosophy.

[19:08]

But the other thing, apart from the – erm, the earthworks, which were fundamental, of course, because of ground conditions, but the drainage, for example, that was a – a fundamental point, because – whereas conventional road building involved putting a buried drainage system in with gullies and gratings and so on, the – we weren’t – or Jim Drake was – was prepared to go along with what the Department of Transport was saying, and that was working on a principle of the way in which airfields were

126 Harry Yeadon Page 127 C1379/82 Track 7 developed, because you couldn’t – you couldn’t afford to have kerbs on a runway, because – potentially dangerous. And so the drainage system was essentially what was known as French drains, and this meant that the – the flow of water, surface water, went into ditches full of crushed stone, with pipe in the bottom of the drain, with a sealed base to the pipes and porous on the top. So the water could get – flow over, go down through the crushed stone, through the porous pipe top, into the pipes and then led away into outfalls. This was quite an important point.

[21:00]

As far as the carriageway construction was concerned, the – erm, the approach there was again to keep the costs down and only to put in initially a temporary surface. And the – the surface was quite light in character, with a sub-base, as we call it, then a base and then a base course and then a final wearing course. And the wearing course was only very thin and it was not meant to last more than a few years before it was overlaid with a permanent – a permanent wearing course. Unfortunately, as it so happened, the – erm, immediately after – I’m jumping ahead a bit now into after it had been opened. It only – it opened in December and in January, of course, there was a failure, which is mentioned in that – that book. And we weren’t trying to hide anything, but of course the – certain parts of the surface broke up, not a lot. But of course there was no speed limit. I think this is an important point. The speed limit didn’t come on till several years later. And the – the police, among others, of course, said, ‘Well, this is not – this is not safe.’ And Preston Bypass was closed until such time as the – the repairs could be carried out and made safe. It wasn’t a lot, but it was sufficient. And of course, it became very political in the press because Macmillan, who was the prime minister, came and opened it, and – and of course the balloon went up. But Jim Drake was pretty tough and he got through it extremely well.

How did you feel when the Preston Bypass closed so soon after its completion?

Well, you know, we just had to accept the situation and realise that it was the important thing to do, and it was an experiment. That was the fundamental thing. But of course, the media didn’t really cotton on to that properly. You know, we’d made a

127 Harry Yeadon Page 128 C1379/82 Track 7 mess of it. And of course, the unfortunate part about it was we were local authority carrying out jobs of some magnitude like that, and a lot of people in the consulting engineer role, of course, they attacked, because they contended that perhaps we didn’t know what we were doing, which was very unfair. And I have documents there, written in – in the consulting engineers’ journals, if you like, being very critical and saying we shouldn’t be involved.

On what grounds were they actually criticising you in that case?

Because they said we, you know, we hadn’t done it properly and – not recognising the background to it, which was cutting costs and – er, as being one of the fundamentals, and building as cheap a job as possible. We’d done a certain amount of – of experimental work ourselves on the county road scheme because we were anxious to get a technique which would be essentially, er, mechanical in terms of laying materials. We called it wet mix. You probably remember that, when, erm, McAdam built his original roads, they were very much water bound macadam, with limestone, particularly in our part of the world, because we’ve got some good limestones. And so you – you put the stone down, put water on it and – particularly with limestone, it had a certain amount of cementing action from the – the lime in the limestone. And we – we carried out one or two schemes using that technique and using machines to – to lay it. And – and it worked. So – but it was cheap, you see.

[26:20]

Unfortunately, the – I think it was the Department of Transport as much as anyone – anyone else, they were concerned – well, I wouldn’t say unfortunately – they were concerned, as we all were, in getting a good running surface, good alignment, good profile. And so what we did – and it’s shown in documents. I’ll show you some of these – of putting what was a concentrate marginal strip at the edge of the carriageway – and this was accurately laid using very much light equipment, putting this marginal strip down first and then laying all the other layers to the profile, which was formed by the marginal strip.

128 Harry Yeadon Page 129 C1379/82 Track 7

So it’s sort of guide strip on the outside.

Yes, yes, only twelve inches wide either side. It wasn’t reinforced as such. But it was essential. And of course, we weren’t – weren’t using mechanical methods as such to lay a true profile. That came later, using wire guided principles and so on. The – the snag was that, having put this marginal strip in and with the temporary surface not being waterproof, the water could get down through the temporary surface, try to flow out through the wet mix, as it were, which was only a very small percentage of cement mixed with the – the wet mix, if you like, which was just crushed limestone, flowing out and then being trapped by the marginal strip, couldn’t get out to the French drains, because it wasn’t waterproof. And –

What’s the implication of that?

Well, the implication was that we’ve got these local failures, you know. It was essentially frost action. As you may have read in the book, it was an exceptional freeze thaw cycle. There were – freezing is the worst possible position to be in if you’ve got water in the – the base or the sub-base at all, because when the frost comes, it heaves and then when the thaw comes and you put traffic on it, it starts to break up. And of course in places like Canada and – etc, and other places where they get very severe winters, they close roads, they don’t hesitate, because they’re concerned about the effect of the freeze. And of course we were not in that situation, not expecting to – to get this rapid change, which was what – the figure’s in the book, anyway, so many degrees Fahrenheit to so and so in thirty six hours, you know, that sort of thing. And that’s how we got caught out.

So what happens to the road surface?

Oh, it breaks up. And of course, it was open to all classes of traffic, no speed limit, etc. And although the traffic volumes were not all that great at the beginning, it grew very rapidly. It wasn’t expected that the final surface would be laid within about eight years – sorry, it wasn’t – it was eight years before it was laid, that’s it, because it was starting to give trouble.

129 Harry Yeadon Page 130 C1379/82 Track 7

[30:40]

How did you actually go – how did they go about repairing the road surface once it had been damaged by the freeze thaw cycle?

Well, it was – it was fairly easy. I mean, you just dug it out and – and put some better stuff in, and it was as simple as that. And of course, we didn’t get the freeze thaw – the freeze thaw cycle of the scale that we’d experienced for several – several years to come, you know. It was – it was not there. It was just a fluke that we got it at that particular time. You know, we couldn’t have – we couldn’t have been more unlucky. But on the other hand, I contend, it was a wonderful experiment, because you don’t do experiments unless you get a certain amount of failure to test it. It’s no good doing something so costly and expensive and so on that – that it never experiences any failure, because you don’t know whether you – you’ve gone over the top in terms of – of doing a Rolls Royce job, and we weren’t in that business.

[31:45]

You’ve used that phrase a few times, a guinea pig experiment.

Yes.

In what sense was the Preston Bypass an experiment?

It was an experiment because the – the form of construction, with a light sub-base, base and the temporary surface – it was light. That was part of the experiment, ‘cause it was known that it would – it would take a final surface. And of course, one of the reasons I didn’t mention it, the whole – well, I won’t say the whole idea, but the approach to putting a temporary surface on followed the – the old established practice, and that is if you were building a new road you didn’t put the permanent surface on straight away. You let the traffic have it and the traffic picked out any weak spots and so on before you got the profile finally right in terms of taking out slight depressions

130 Harry Yeadon Page 131 C1379/82 Track 7 here, there and everywhere. So it was important in that sense. That ceased to be the practice on motorway construction from then. You put a permanent surface on straight away because traffic – traffic was growing so rapidly.

Was the Preston Bypass an experiment in other senses as well?

Well, interesting – I’m going onto bridges. Fortunately, the Department of Transport gave our bridge designers quite a lot of freedom in choice. And it was the days of early stages of pre-stressed concrete design, if that means anything to you. Does it mean anything? Ah. Well, the principle basically is if – I’m talking about concrete now; we’ll leave steel on one side for the moment. In concrete design, if you just build a concrete beam, for example, and you load it with – in any form you like, it will – it will bend at the bottom of the beam. It won’t bend at the top. It’ll take compression forces at the top but it won’t take tension forces. And the idea of pre- stressing is to pre-stress the beam by pushing it in at either end, stressing it that way. So you build into it, erm, compression strength, which takes up the loading from – well, traffic if you’re building a road. It takes up the loading and – and uses that compression stress, which is already in it, before it puts anything under tension. That’s the basis of it. So you pre-stress at the – at the bottom of the beam but you don’t need to pre-stress at the top, of course, because that takes the compression anyway. As it bends, it compresses in the middle. That was basically the principle. You can do it in – in several ways. You can do it by, er, building bridge beams, for example, in a factory, because you can establish stressing beds by putting – putting wires down on a bed, stressing them, quite high stress, then putting concrete round it. And then, when the concrete has gained sufficient strength as such, gone off [ph], not long, then you release the tension and it reduces in – well, slightly in length, but not materially. And you’ve got the pre-tension already there. That’s one way of doing it. The other is to post-tension it, and that is to form a beam with ducts in it and thread through those – form the – cast the beam, pass through it cables, which you then stress, because the concrete’s already gone off. So it’s pre-stressing or post-stressing the two essential features. So our bridge designers were given quite a bit of choice there as to what technique to use. The problem with post – there’s no problem with the – the pre-stress because the wires are completely held and locked in by the

131 Harry Yeadon Page 132 C1379/82 Track 7 concrete. In the post tension mode, where you’re forming a duct, then threading the cables through, you’ve got to then gouge out those ducts, which is not easy to do, in order to seal the ducts and stop any corrosion taking place. And there have been failures, unfortunately, where corrosion has taken place because the ducts were not properly filled.

Why do you need to stress concrete at all in a bridge?

Well, erm, first of all you’ve got to look at whether you’re going for steel or concrete. If you go for steel, which is a very old traditional method of building a bridge, then you’ve always got the problem of maintenance, painting. And if you’re putting bridges over a motorway, which causes you to be painting every few years, if not done properly or, you know, in adverse conditions then you’re going to have an effect on traffic, because you’re having to close the – a lane or two lanes and so on to get the painting done, erm, as maintenance painting. So you’re trying to avoid that ‘cause you don’t want to close the road because it’s always potentially dangerous anyway. Concrete, of course, is highly competitive, for the reasons I’ve – using the techniques that I mentioned, and of course you don’t have that maintenance problem. If you do it properly, you’ve got a structure there which will last for a long, long time before you need to do anything to it.

[39:21]

Interesting, by the way – I’m afraid I’m jumping ahead. Do you mind? No? But Samlesbury Bridge, over the Ribble, which was the – there were – shall I put it this way. There were three contracts on Preston Bypass. Two of them concerned two steel bridges, Ribble Bridge and High Walter Bridge [ph], as it was known, crossing the valley of the – of the River Darwen, both in steel, both accessible without being involved in – in painting to the same extent. And Samlesbury Bridge, it was a box girder. Now that might mean something to you. But in the 19, er – soon after Samlesbury Bridge was opened, a major storm blew up, not only in this country but internationally, where failures took place in building. Nothing wrong with the basic principle of steel box girders. By steel box, you’re building a – a box rather than an I

132 Harry Yeadon Page 133 C1379/82 Track 7 section [ph], which is convention, a steel joist of that type or a truss. You’re not doing that. You’re building a box. And very difficult to – to construct, because it’s only effective when it’s fully constructed and with diaphragms inside and so on. And very – very efficient and very economic. And we realised that what we were conscious of high humidity possibly developing inside the boxes, because you’ve got to maintain the steelwork inside as well as outside. And so we put taps on the side of the boxes to allow the beams to breathe. As it so happened, if you’ve got hot weather and you’ve got expansion of the – of the air inside the box, you could hear the beams breathing, literally. And so we thought, well, this isn’t very good if the air’s going to get in and out through taps on the side. So we decided we’d have to go to something better to seal them off completely. And we were only chatting down in the office on the site one day about this time, what are we going to do about this, and somebody, I can’t remember who it was, but I was party to it to some extent – if you buy a camera, for example, you buy it in a box. You’ve got a little bag of silica gel inside, which absorbs the moisture. And I think somebody – or I may have said this, I don’t know, ‘Let’s put some silica gel inside.’ And we got hold of Crossfields [ph], who were a big salt manufacturers in Warrington, who made silica gel in a big way, and they were very interested in this. So what we did, we went right through the girders, put bags of – sacks of silica gel all the way through the boxes, quite cheap material, and then seal the boxes up with proper bolted access manholes, where we could get in to inspect but not just relying on the tap on the side. Interesting, and it worked. And I can’t quote, I’m afraid, how – what was the frequency of painting inside compared with what it might otherwise have been, but air going in and out was the worst possible situation. Anyways, it so happened, there was no code of practice for steel box girder bridges. Designers were doing it from first principles, if you like, designing on the basis of conventional steel design and – whereas many other parts of the world, if you like, had to close traffic lanes until a full investigation had been carried out as to what was happening to steel box girder bridges, to be satisfied that it was the right thing to do. We closed the slow lanes to relieve the loading on the bridge at Samlesbury and we didn’t have to do any strengthening at all. So we got it right. So our designers were way ahead of everybody else. It was interesting that the Department of Transport – as I say, they were paying and they were very keen on – they were quite happy to see all this introduction of post-tension bridges, pre-tension bridges, steel and so on.

133 Harry Yeadon Page 134 C1379/82 Track 7

[45:10]

But they said they’d like to come up with a test load vehicle, which was essentially a trailer with large t-section concrete blocks. And you could load this very heavy – hefty trailer with these loads and run them over bridges and test in terms of deflections and – and so on, from which you can judge how the structure is behaving. They did the investigations. We provided scaffolding, that sort of thing. This was just before the bypass opened. And it was late in the year, about November time, ‘cause the job opened in December, and I got a call one day from the police because they had a – a police car in full attendance with this vehicle and its trailer. And the important thing was, we knew that on the route they intended taking, getting from bridge to bridge, there were going to be some comparatively weak bridges. And this particular day, they set off to go from one bridge to another on a comparatively minor roads – road, and eventually – they kept going and going and going until eventually they got to a road junction and instead of going over this weak bridge once, they went over it several times [laughs], reversing backwards and forwards. And that’s why I got the call, ‘Can you bring a crane quickly, or raise a crane?’ So I got one off the contractor and off we set – by this time, of course, it was pitch dark anyway – to unload this vehicle, to open this road, which was completely blocked. It was the first time that we ever got a bridge on an unclassified county road paid for one hundred percent by the Department of Transport [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way.

[47:40 Short interlude while photo is taken]

So there was quite a lot of innovation on the bridges side, using different techniques and so on, and – and the department, of course, backed us one hundred percent on this. And you weren’t inclined to take any risks, of course. I mean, this – this was the distinction. With the road works and so on, you were taking risks in order to keep costs down, but on – on the bridges you couldn’t afford to do that.

What sort of risks?

134 Harry Yeadon Page 135 C1379/82 Track 7

On the earthworks and so on? Well, the risks of – of failure as it so happened, that – that sort of risk. It wasn’t – it wasn’t a safety risk, except that in the situation where the failure had occurred and the – nobody was prepared to keep it open with no speed limit. And people were driving along it, you know, at a hundred miles an hour, you know, when it first opened. They thought this was great.

Why wasn’t there a speed limit at first?

Quite frankly, I don’t know. I really don’t know why. And of course, it was in the days of – not speed limits as we know them now, you know, put a speed limit down to twenty miles an hour if they think it necessary. It wasn’t in that world. And – but honestly, I don’t know. Whether it was ever thought about, I don’t know. The profile was good. The profile proved to be excellent in terms of safety. I mean, one thing, for – out of interest, that I should have mentioned, is the dilemma as to whether you have single span – double – two spans, three spans and so on. And one of the factors there was avoiding, in certain situations, a pier in the central reserve between the two carriageways, because you could be affecting visibility if there was a pier there.

So on over-bridges over the motorway, you mean?

Yes, yes, sorry, yes. It didn’t apply so much with under-bridges.

You’ve mentioned about, you know, the road surfacing being an experiment and the bridges being an experiment as well. In what other senses was the Preston Bypass an experiment?

Erm, well, I think I’ve covered most of the – the items. You were – you were trying to avoid putting the permanent surface down initially because of, erm, deformation of the – of the surface under load. Trying to keep the cost down. It was essentially cost. And, erm – essentially cost, taking a risk on performance without necessarily a risk on – on safety. I don’t think there was any question of anybody deliberately – deliberately building something which was inherently unsafe, no question of that.

135 Harry Yeadon Page 136 C1379/82 Track 7

Was the concept more generally an experiment at this time?

Erm, sorry, I’m not …

Was the concept of the Preston Bypass an experiment more generally at all?

Oh well, yes. I mean, it was – it was a means of getting things moving, you know, to go along with – I think the Ministry were just as keen to get on. And particularly the hierarchy in the – no criticism of the – of the chief engineers and so on in the – in the Department of Transport. They were keen to – as engineers, as we all are – if you’re – if you’re trained, you want to do things. And so they were very good, I must say. It was the – behind it all, of course, was the Treasury, as usual [laughs].

[52:30]

I’m interested in this idea of costs. Are costs something that you personally had to watch on a day to day basis when you were working on it?

Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean, what I find now, and again jumping ahead, is that the cost of carrying out major road schemes now is quite ridiculous. It really is. And you’d better perhaps not – not quote me too much on this, but the – er, the – because, of course, the – the county councils don’t do the major works that we did. I mean, most of the county council – I won’t say most of them, a large number of them were in the same situation as we were. We were agents. And the Department of Transport hadn’t got the staff to – to be doing anything directly themselves. So that’s when the road construction unit started. Did I talk about the road construction unit?

I think so but maybe we should mention them where they drop into the history.

Yes.

136 Harry Yeadon Page 137 C1379/82 Track 7

But I guess I’m interested in, you know – in your actual job on the Preston Bypass. You know, how do you count the pennies? Are there any things you have to do yourself?

Oh yes. Well, I won’t say counting the – you’re essentially working to the contract, ‘cause the contract – I mean, we specified properly what we wanted and – and this was important, because you couldn’t get an idea of – of cost unless you specified and went out for tender. If you were tendering on the basis of a strict specification then you could get in good competitive tenders. And that was – that was fundamental, the whole thing. You didn’t go changing things, which I’m afraid, compared with the architectural profession – very good at changing things. Not going out to – I mean, I know it’s a different world, but not going out to tender on sort of very much outline proposals, because the contractor will take you to the cleaners if they get half a chance. No, we weren’t in that position at all. And of course, over – over time we became more and more experienced, more and more knowledgeable, and the good contractors respected us for that. We didn’t have – initially there was a certain amount of controversy with – on Preston Bypass because the contractors were learning very much as we were. They were having to use plant which wasn’t modern plant, you know. And a tank with a dozer blade on the front, you know, that sort of thing, using ex army equipment, etc. And so they were – they were learning.

[55:55]

The other thing, which I think was a feature, was that with this marginal strip that was put in first, the – obviously – the contractor would obviously try to use the minimum thickness he could get away with. And so he was working from the top down in that respect, so that he wasn’t building – he wasn’t using the more expensive material sort of willy-nilly. It would have been far more easier to build greater thicknesses of material. But of course, he wouldn’t get paid for it. And this became a bit of a problem with them, with the contractors, in the sense that they, obviously, because we couldn’t watch every bit of movement that was going on on the site. And we – er, they were – they were trying to get away with the minimum which was acceptable, understandably, because that’s where the money was, if they could get – get through

137 Harry Yeadon Page 138 C1379/82 Track 7 meeting the conditions of the contract. Because nobody’s going to object if they put greater thickness in, but not if they – if they can get away with – but of course, later on it’s a different world. Anyway.

Did you ever catch them out yourself?

Erm, oh, personally? Well yes. I mean, one thing on the bridges side – because I was essentially concerned with the civil version [ph] of bridgeworks. And of course, they were very keen to utilise their resources to the best and they had an awful habit – one particular – one of the bridge contractors, or the subcontractors of the main contractor, always had a habit of ordering concrete coming in – ready mix concrete coming in, always late on in the day. And if the weather’s bad or it’s going dark early in the evening and so on, it had an advantage for a time. But they were – they got the – they’d ordered concrete, they wanted to use it, otherwise they were going to be in trouble with their suppliers. So they were – you found yourself going out at night and that sort of thing because they’d ordered concrete and they were going to use it. And, you know, and of course you were anxious to ensure that it was – it was done properly, because one of the rules, particularly if you’re using reinforced concrete at all, to ensure that all the reinforcement was there in position, all the shuttering was correct in terms of the, er, dimension and so on, and it was continual battling in that sense. And I – no hesitation in saying on the odd occasion, when a pier has gone up, cast in concrete and then when the shuttering is taken away, it was pretty clear that – that it wasn’t good enough for those reasons, and saying, ‘Take it down.’ And – oh yes. And I used to have – I used to have terrible battles with this – the agent for this firm of subcontractors and I used to – [laughs] I used to come – the chap died years ago – coming home at night and looking fed up and Sybil saying, ‘Oh, you’ve been having another row with Ted again, have you? And I said, ‘Yes.’ [Laughs] But, you know, we’d got to get it right. That’s what we were there for. And, you know, you don’t enter into a contract lightly unless you’ve got the – the proper authority and so on.

[1:00:15]

138 Harry Yeadon Page 139 C1379/82 Track 7

And of course health and safety didn’t exist in those days anyway and that was a factor. Oh yes, very much so. I mean, the simple – the simple case is, what do you do if somebody is laying a pipe in a trench and the ground is bad, and you go along and you happen to see that they’ve dug a trench and they haven’t supported the sides – the sides of the trench, and you can see, from your experience that that is potentially dangerous? Now what do you do? You go to the senior person first of all and you say, ‘Look, this is not good enough. You’d better do something about it.’ And by and large they probably would. But they’d try to get away with it, because shuttering in when they don’t think it’s necessary – but it’s a risky business. And of course, the number of accidents you get of – I mean, there was one quite recently, surprisingly, even with a health and safety legislation in being, that – it can happen where a collapse has occurred. And particularly if the weather changes and you’ve got a chap at the bottom of a trench, you know, and he’s completely overwhelmed, smothered, by no proper support, you know, things like that.

[1:01:52]

Were there many accidents building Preston Bypass?

Erm … I don’t think there were any fatal accidents. I can’t remember. I can remember on other jobs where there have been fatal accidents, yes. Erm, usually people falling off ladders and things like that, and – which you wouldn’t do these days. You know, you wouldn’t be working on a ladder with a tricky job. Erm, not safe. But people would take risks. And of course it’s where experience comes in. Now I wouldn’t pretend to be – be widely experienced, but I think I can recognise a situation where I wouldn’t go on it, and that was the key to the whole thing, you know. But you build up a relationship over time and people realise you’re not messing about. And of course, the worst thing you can do is to allow something to go ahead and – and find that it’s wrong and then have to dig it out and start again. That – that is – that doesn’t help anybody. It delays the job and nobody gains anything. People lose money. And I remember on one – with one contractor, for example, who got to know us extremely well, knew us well. Knew what he can do – what we could do and what we couldn’t do. And saying look, you can be as tough as you like with

139 Harry Yeadon Page 140 C1379/82 Track 7 supervision, because it helps us, you know, at director level, for example. People are not going to let things go ahead when there’s a risk that they might have to start again. Worst thing.

[End of Track 7]

140 Harry Yeadon Page 141 C1379/82 Track 8

Track 8

I guess we’ve talked a bit about the overall scheme for the Preston Bypass, but what did you personally do over that period? Where do you sit in the organisation underneath James Drake?

[Coughs] Well, as you probably remember – I think I did explain to you that, if you have a civil engineering contract, a major civil engineering contract, you have an engineer appointed by the client. Now the engineer is – is, of course, a man of some standing and has a semi judicial role [coughs], in the sense that he certifies payments, sorts out disputes and so on within reason. I mean, he’s not going to be in full conflict with a contractor leading to arbitration or anything like that. But to operate properly and run the contract administratively, he has – the engineer appoints a resident engineer, who is fulltime on – on site. Now the resident engineer has a major contract, quite a large staff, potentially. And when I was out on site, I was assistant resident engineer for bridge construction, and that is really operating the day to day supervision, with a team of – I had an assistant working with me, plus a team of clerks of works and inspectors, and it was our job to see that – as I said before, that the contract is carried out in accordance with requirements and specifications, etc, and also to measure the – the work and, again, check measurements and – and payment within the terms of the contract. So I was in that capacity on site. Does that answer the question?

I think so. It’s inspired a couple of other ones as well.

Right.

What’s a clerk of work?

Clerk of works. That’s a common term, who is used in the building industry generally, with architects and so on. And he has the same role in – in perhaps a series of – of minor jobs where you don’t have a resident engineer. You have a – er, you’re more the practical man, the chap who’s been brought up in – in the industry as – up to

141 Harry Yeadon Page 142 C1379/82 Track 8 sort of foreman or general foreman level and decides to join the team, if you like, if appointed. And they’re very valuable chaps and they’re – they’re really the – really frontline men.

What sort of things do they do?

Well, they supervise in – in detail, for example, on the bridges side, I think I’ve mentioned this already, checking casting concrete, checking that all the reinforcement is there properly within the design, the shuttering is correct in dimension, etc, and ensuring that the work is carried out satisfactorily. It’s as simple as that, the practical side. But you’re not involved in any major decisions in terms of variations, for example. I mean, you do get variations on the contract for all sorts of different reasons, but you try to avoid it if at all possible because variations cause delay and so on. So you’ve got to keep on top of the job as a resident engineer or assistant resident engineer.

[05:14]

On the earthworks side, for example, you could very well be involved in – in quite difficult decisions as to whether material is capable of being used for forming embankments. That’s an important part of the job, because it could quite often cause a contractor to say, ‘Oh well, this is …’ If his price is right in the – in the tender in the contract, it might encourage him to throw away stuff, take it to the tip and bring imported film, because he would make more money out of that rather than trying to utilise it. So people have got to be on the ground to say, ‘Look, that is quite capable of being used.’ Because although you – you normally carry out – have a laboratory on site anyway and you could very well be, erm, carrying out tests on the material, laboratory tests to decide whether it was capable of being used. But of course it takes time to get test results. But if you’ve got a fleet of earth moving equipment there, you can’t afford to – nobody can afford to wait for tests. You’ve got to use your experience and say to the contractor, ‘Look, that is perfectly capable of – of being used. You must use it rather than bringing in imported film, where you’d …’ And this is where the weather, of course, becomes – becomes fundamental, because

142 Harry Yeadon Page 143 C1379/82 Track 8 material which you think is – is okay can change overnight. In Preston Bypass, for example, we got a lot of sandy clay, clay mixed with sand, and once it rains it becomes just a slurry. You can’t really wait until it dries out. The contractor’s wanting to do something, you know, perhaps saying, ‘Well, I’m going to take that to the tip.’ And you’ve got to say, ‘No, you’re not. You’re going to use it.’ But of course, you can run into major controversies in terms of arbitration and so on. We didn’t have arbitrations on Preston Bypass. As I said before, we didn’t have public inquiries or anything like that. We managed to reach adequate compromises within the terms of the contract, which is fundamental.

[08:10]

What sort of laboratory do you have on site?

Well, you would have a laboratory for testing all sorts of materials, not only earthworks materials from excavation but also tests [coughs] – testing manufacturer products. You know, pipes, for example, or concrete kerbs or anything that is going into the job, to be satisfied that it’s suitable for purpose. I – it’s a range of things, really.

Could you give me one or two examples of the sorts of tests that you do in one of those laboratories?

Well, you’d have perhaps a – a shear test, which is fundamental in – in earths, whereas will it stand up to shear. And I think you’ll appreciate what I mean by shear. You know, it’s whether material is going to compact properly or whether it’s going to just sort of break up and become just a mess of waterlogged material. And then you’re trying to either wait – wait until it dries out, which you quite often haven’t got, or you’ve got to make your mind up to make a decision and check it. So it’s a very delicate relationship with the contractor. He’s trying to get on and do the job. He’s trying to use as much material as he can, if the prices are right in his tender, ‘cause that’s fundamental to the thing.

143 Harry Yeadon Page 144 C1379/82 Track 8

Who’s actually working in the laboratory? Is it you or other people?

Oh, oh no, you have a chap who’s, er, an earthworks specialist and – and, er, very much a geotechnical chap. And, of course, what you’re also doing is checking the stability of slopes, for example. Very difficult to judge precisely how a slope is going to behave.

[10:50]

And of course, what I should have mentioned is that Preston Bypass – one of the fundamental requirements was to use as little amount of land as possible, because of food supply. So you – you were trying to make your slopes as steep as possible. And of course there’s always a risk attached to that, and slopes can generate into – into slips, particularly if you’ve got bad weather. So you might be faced with having to reinforce slopes which have been formed in reasonable circumstances by putting stone revetment in or something like that. So it’s very much a soil mechanics, which is the term for the expertise involved. And it’s a case of working together [coughs] with the contractors. And of course, on concrete, you’re continually testing concrete, ‘cause what you do is you – as you’re forming a structure or something like that, you form a series of cubes, in a form of six by six cubes, and normal practice is that you would take cubes – you’d take one, the contractor – you’d take one, because you can’t get a reasonable test for either – you can get a seven day test or a twenty eight day test and so on to get the full strength. So that was an important part, concrete. And then you crush the – crush the cubes in a crushing machine and see whether it fails. What we came across on Preston Bypass was the first use in this part of the world with ready mix concrete, with a supplier in the area, near Blackpool actually, who said he’d like to use ready mix concrete. Because the normal thing, of course, is to set a – set up a batching – a mixing plant on site, so we could keep tabs on – I mean, for example, it’s important to know how much cement you’re going to put in your mix. So you agreed on a mix criteria depending on the aggregates which the contractor is going to use. So it is important. And the other – the other thing is the water that you’re putting in, because the amount of water put in a concrete mix determines the strength – strength of the concrete. If you want a very high strength concrete then you try to keep the

144 Harry Yeadon Page 145 C1379/82 Track 8 moisture content down to the minimum. Now what we came across with the – this ready mix plant was to keep tabs on that because once it got – got into the mixer truck – you know the sort of thing, being, you know, going round, common practice now. Once it had gone into the mixer then you haven’t got much control of it when it arrives on site and you’re shooting it down into a set of forms and so on. So what we did, myself and my assistant, we used to go out first thing in the morning, when they were getting ready to mix, and check the – and you can’t really put a clerk of works onto that because it’s rather technical, really, and you’ve got to make a judgement on it and to see – and then determine – because aggregates stored on site have got a lot of moisture in them anyway, so a case of – the amount of added water is critical. And we were looking for quite high strength concrete, particularly for stressing. So we’d go out first thing in the morning, check the materials, check what they proposed to put in in the way of water. The truck mixer driver would be briefed as to how much water to put in when he either set off or got onsite, mixing and then putting into the formwork. And there’s nothing more difficult, if you find some test results where you’ve got to make a judgement, are you going to accept it on the basis of cubes and so on. And there are other tests that you do. You have a – the – a quick way of determining how much water’s gone in. And you have a cone shaped former and you fill this with – with the mixed concrete and then you gradually take it off, take the former off, and if it slumps by a certain amount, you know it’s got too much water in. And you could – you could reject the concrete. But the fact that they know that you’re – you’re watching all this, either directly or with a clerk of works, it’s important, important to get the concrete mix right and quite different to the – the building trade and so on. You’re dealing with very high strength and you’ve got to achieve it.

[17:14]

I’m interested – I guess most people, they encounter motorways as ready built structures today. But I’m interested, you know, where do you actually start? Do you start at one end and work your way to the other, or lots of points in between? Could you describe the process of how you build a motorway to me, please?

145 Harry Yeadon Page 146 C1379/82 Track 8

Er, what, from the start of construction, you mean?

Mm.

Oh well, you set your team up and you – you know who you’re working with in terms of contractors or subcontractors. We had – in Preston Bypass terms, although tarmac were the main contractors for the roadworks, they were not bridge specialists, and they appointed a firm locally called Fairclough [ph], who’d been around for years, known very well to – to us, you know, going back when – the days of building bridges with masons and so on rather than concrete. And we had a good – always a good relationship with them. But, of course, the – an agent – and you’re familiar with the term agent? The agent in effect is the – is the contractor’s manager, running the job in terms of appointing staff and so on. I had one difficult experience, where – it was a very big factory just outside factory, and it was working twenty four hour shifts, seven days a week. And we’d built this bridge to carry the road over the – the bypass and, er, you couldn’t close the road, so you had to do the bridge in – in two halves – and by halves I mean laterally, not longitudinally. And we got this laid on because they agreed that they would do this on a Saturday night. And so it was all laid on. And I went out on site to see that everything was working properly and the – the men arrived on – the contractor’s men arrived on the site, but the agent hadn’t turned up. And so I said, ‘Well, where’s the agent?’ Because he was the fellow that I was going to be dealing with. And eventually he came, in the early hours of the morning. I mean, we started the job ourselves actually because everybody was there. And it was – it was Courtaulds, you know, a big organisation, and we couldn’t afford to – well, it would be unreasonable to stop the job and – and find another occasion to do it. And eventually he turned up, half – half sozzled. He’d been on a night out on the Saturday night. I played hell with him. I said, ‘Where the hell have you been?’ Because we were virtually running the job. And we got the job done eventually. And on – on the Monday morning, the contracts manager for the firm turned up and said, ‘Look, do you want – do you want me to sack him?’ Which he could do. I mean, you know, contractually you can – you can say to the contractor, ‘Look, you’ve got an incompetent employee. You’d better get rid of him. I’m not having him on the site.’ It’s important, you know, particularly where – it’s a bit different with hard manual

146 Harry Yeadon Page 147 C1379/82 Track 8 labour, where it’s a bucket and spade sort of situation, but where you’re dealing with highly technical stuff like that. And, you know, the question of this water main as well. So I waded up – and I could have got him sacked, actually. And I – and I relented and I had a real go at him. I said, ‘Look, you don’t come onto our jobs and behave like that, you know, when people have laid everything on and then you get let down.’ Anyway.

Why didn’t you ask for him to be sacked?

Well, I could have done.

But why didn’t you?

Well, because by and large he was quite a competent fellow, but he’d stupidly gone out on the Saturday night when this operation was going ahead, you know. And I could have done. But I didn’t.

[22:20]

To return again to the – the procedure of how you actually built the Preston Bypass –

Yeah. Oh, we’ll go back to the procedure.

Well, once you’ve got the team set up, what did you –

Right. Well, the first thing to do is to get the job set out in terms of – by set out, putting pegs in and so on, getting the alignment right on the ground. And this is highly important, of course. And you’re doing that either – probably jointly with the contractor, ‘cause it’s his responsibility at the end of the day but you’ve got to be there to see that it’s right. So you set out the job first of all [coughs]. It’s important for the contractor early on to prepare a programme, a detailed programme, as to how he’s going to tackle the job, because that’s his job, not your job. But – so the programme is fundamental and you have the right to approve the programme or not,

147 Harry Yeadon Page 148 C1379/82 Track 8 and you could say, ‘Look, that’s ridiculous, you know. You’d better go away and think again.’ Because you can have the last word on the programme, to see that everything else would fall into shape. And then you would – and you would certainly look at the programme in terms of how the thing is going to be put up together. For example, the importance of bridgeworks and bridges going in at the appropriate time, because those can be a fundamental obstacle in terms of major earth moving. So that – that’s fundamental.

In terms of setting out, what sort of thing do you mean?

Well, you’ve got drawings which have been put together by the engineer in designing the job, and, er, it’s – there’s already, on the ground probably, a fundamental set of – of data pegs and so on. So you’d be referring to those pegs and then you’d be out with your theodolite and level and so on, or at least your minions would be, to get – to get the – the detailed setting out done. But of course, that’s always changing anyway, because as you take out an excavation, of course you tend to be destroying some of the setting out pegs you put in previously. So you’re always – you’ve always got to be on top of that, otherwise you could be in – you could be in serious trouble, if you find that the bridge has been built in the wrong place [laughs].

Does that ever happen?

Oh, erm, to some extent, perhaps of a minor nature, but they could be dealt with fairly easily. But you can usually pick this up, you know, on the initial excavations and so on, before you start putting anything in. So that’s the – that’s the second stage, programming and the timing of the important jobs, like major bridges and so on, because there’s nothing worse than having all your earthworks done and the bridge isn’t there to take it. So everything’s got to be timed. And it’s particularly difficult if you get two contractors working on a site, because somebody’s got to coordinate it and – otherwise you find yourself working as an honest broker between two contractors, but – therefore it’s important to avoid a lot of different contractors coming on the job. But subcontractors – you can, if you wish of course, always ignore subcontractors, because you are not in contract with the subcontractor. You’re

148 Harry Yeadon Page 149 C1379/82 Track 8 in contract with the main contractor. And if you’ve got a real problem, you go to the main contractor and say, ‘Look, sort out your subcontractor, or get rid of him and bring someone else in.’

Is that because your contract with – they’re higher up than –

Exactly. You’ve got the contract with the contractor and you can ignore the subcontractor in terms of working with – with them or against them [laughs].

[27:20]

Once you’ve got your programme and your – it almost sounds like the programme is of a schedule then. Would that be right?

Well, it can be quite sophisticated in terms of a profile plan on long – large scale drawings, showing which operations are going to be dealt with next and so on. It’s quite sophisticated. And the chaps working on the big job for a main contractor – it’s a highly skilled job because they’ve got to be very experienced in terms of what is feasible in timescale and so on, how long it might take to do a particular operation and so on. This is all fundamental to the whole thing. And of course, you’ve got to ensure that the interests of the – of the general public are protected. I mean, this is important. You can’t just ignore the – if you’re going through their land, you’ve got to ensure that the – their position is protected, because they can be adversely affected, the public. So you’re very much involved with the public.

Once you’ve got your programme, what happens then?

Well, once you’ve got your – well, they’ll have started preliminary works, which are of no consequence. If you’re happy with the early stages of the programme then you say, ‘Okay, carry on,’ and – but it’s a moving feast, you know. You – it isn’t – once you’ve got the initial programme, that doesn’t become a complete bible, because things can change. The weather can alter things tremendously.

149 Harry Yeadon Page 150 C1379/82 Track 8

How long does it take once you’ve started building it?

Well, normally what we try to do on the big motorway jobs is to go for a two year contract, but it depends on the time of the year when you – you’re accepting a tender. I mean, the ideal, of course, is to invite tenders before the end of the calendar year, get a tender accepted at the beginning of the calendar year, so that a major start can be made in the spring. So you’re going to get two summers, two summers at least. And probably with a very big contract you might be looking for something different. But it depends, of course, on getting tenders in, getting them accepted by the financial wizards and getting a proper start date. This is highly important.

How long did the Preston Bypass take?

It started in June – I think you’ll find it in the book there. I think it’s June 1956, and it – it was completed 8th December 1958. There was a brief extension of time, a few months and so on. And of course, the engineer is empowered to grant extensions of time, if – if it’s weather, for example. You wouldn’t be granting an extension of time for sheer negligence or incompetence, but you would have ensured you would have only been inviting tenders – tenders from competent firms anyway. So you’d check that out, but mainly you know the – you know the firms and you can check with your opposite numbers, engineers involved in other contracts that they’ve been involved in. And you might get somebody who’ll say, ‘Oh, don’t touch that lot,’ you know, ‘They’re not up to it.’ So there’s quite a bit of investigation beforehand. But those are sort of ideal situations. But the worst thing, of course, is delay in accepting a tender and running into the summer and missing, you know, the best weather of the year because of late start.

[31:40]

Do you remember any particular problems in your own experience in building the Preston Bypass?

150 Harry Yeadon Page 151 C1379/82 Track 8

Erm, well, I wasn’t – I must admit, I wasn’t directly concerned with the roadwork site. I knew what was going on, obviously. We all had to know what was going on. But my essential role was ensuring that the bridgeworks were – were carried out properly. Erm, and of course, you come across all sorts of interesting problems. I mean, for example, on Samlesbury Bridge – and we suddenly found – and it was after the – the bridge had been substantially completed and the painting had been started, and we found that the paint was stripping, like a paint stripper, down the girders. And we thought, what the hell’s going on? And we made enquiries and we – we wandered around for a bit with litmus paper in our pockets. And the thing was that it was highly, erm … it wasn’t acidic, it was the other. Anyway, the – testing the effluent coming out – because you do get the odd leakage from concrete, you can do. And so we were concerned about this. And we found, having got in touch with the cement manufacturers, who were over in East Lancashire anyway, Ribble Cement, that because of the pressure from the housing market in the particular period, the – the cement wasn’t being fully burnt during manufacture. They admitted this. And in consequence you were getting these – these chemical actions taking place without knowing, expecting the cement would be perfectly in accordance with the – the specification, but it wasn’t. But fortunately it actually eased off. It went. But I had an experience then on the day of the opening – have I mentioned this? Because the drainage from the – the deck of the bridge, because the layout was quite simple and it had a – on the bridge itself, it had a kerb and then a narrow sort of footway, if you like – it wasn’t open to the public, of course. And then the – the drainage outlet from the deck flowing off went into a pipe and went down between the edge of the deck and the string course of the – supporting the parapet of the bridge. And, er, I remember well [laughs], the day – I think it was a couple of days before, Jim Drake coming around and saying, knowing that the prime minister was coming, ‘You’re going to get all this cleaned up,’ because the opening ceremony was – was in front of the Samlesbury Bridge. ‘You’re going to get it all cleaned up, aren’t you, before the – the day?’ I said, ‘Oh yes, it’s alright. We’re making quite sure that it’s all swept and everything.’ And then on the day of the opening, coming down the hill down to Samlesbury Bridge, early in the morning, and seeing – coming down – because the paint – the paint colour was a light – a light blue, about this colour, of the – of the structure. And at every drainage outlet, there was a black streak coming right down

151 Harry Yeadon Page 152 C1379/82 Track 8 the bridge, right down the face of the bridge. I thought, my god, what’s happened. And what had happened, there’d been quite a severe frost, surprisingly, early December, and there was sufficient haw frost on the deck. And the sun came out, it was a beautiful day, melted the haw frost, a sufficient flow to flow along the bridge, pick up residue and dirt, which – I mean, you couldn’t get it swept perfectly, of course – and running down these outlets. And I thought, my god, what am I going to do [laughs]. So I went round to the contractor and I said, ‘Look, we’re in trouble. Have you got somebody that can go over the side of the bridge in a bucket, you know, in a crane?’ And he went over with a bucket of Flash and – and washed all the – all these things off [laughs]. And we finished it just in time, you know. But these things – these things happen. All was – all of us survived.

[37:10]

Why were you painting the bridges at all?

Why were we painting them? Well yes, that’s an important point. Apart from the fact that general appearance – traditionally you always painted bridges in grey. And Jim Drake said, ‘Look, we’re going to make this look well.’ And the other thing was, of course, that on the over bridges, he was concerned on making it interesting. He didn’t want a drab sort of sequence of bridges. He wanted to liven it up. And so this was – this was the thing, different – different colours for different situations. And I’m not quite sure I got involved in that instance, but certainly on Preston-Lancaster, where I was resident engineer – and this was a – a Saturday afternoon job, when we used to go out in Jim Drake’s car, with the dog, and his wife, and colour charts, and go to each bridge site and say, ‘What shall we have this coloured?’ You know, as simple as that [laughs].

How do you decide what colour a bridge should be?

[Laughs] Well, you know, it was – it was very much, you know, what were the surroundings like, for example. This was the way it was done. And of course he

152 Harry Yeadon Page 153 C1379/82 Track 8 could get away with things like that could Jim, you know. He said, ‘Well, I’ve done it, you know. That’s it.’ [Laughs] Nobody could complain.

What sort of boss was he on the Preston Bypass, to work for?

Oh, he was – he was tough. He used to appear at all – all hours of day and night, sort of thing, almost. And he wanted to get it right, no doubt about it. And everybody was with him, of course, you know, and you accepted being chased around and sacked from time to time, which never happened [laughs].

Any stories you remember in particular?

Well, when the ground was bad, I remember one occasion where the – going out in his wellies and getting stuck in the mud, and couldn’t get out of his wellies without leaving them in the ground, you know [laughs], bare feet sort of thing. And the other thing was – I remember this business about testing material, and being out on site one day, and it was quite controversial as to whether a particular cutting, the material from the cutting would be – could be used or not, and having the geotechnical chap there, who was very knowledgeable and knew you couldn’t – you couldn’t be testing and so on. And saying to – and of course, you were never Christian name terms, even though I had a close working relationship with him. Everybody was Mr or – or his secretary was always Miss and not any – anything like that. And, er, him saying to – the chap’s name was McKrill [ph]. And saying, ‘Right, Mr McKrill [ph]. Do you think this material is going to be alright?’ And McKrill [ph] picking up a lump of clay and rolling it between his hands, which was one of the techniques for testing whether – too much moisture in it and whether it was – and saying – and then pulling it apart like that and saying, ‘Well, on the one hand it might be alright and on the other hand it might not,’ you know [laughs]. It was very much sort of hit and miss, a lot of this. It had to be. There was no other way of doing it. Oh, it was good.

[41:20]

153 Harry Yeadon Page 154 C1379/82 Track 8

And could you actually paint me – most people today will encounter a motorway in its ready built state, all nicely landscaped, this sort of tarmac highway through the countryside. Could you paint me a portrait of what it actually looks – when you’re actually building it. If I’m standing there looking at the site, what do I see?

A mess [laughs]. Apparent chaos and confusion, which is not so, of course. But that’s why you’ve got to keep your setting out points in the right place.

What do I actually see? What sort of features are there on the landscape?

Well, you – you’d see initially earth moving plant, of scrapers or front loaders and – and so on. And you’d see that. You’d see vehicles bringing in the sub-base materials and base materials, etc, and different sections. And one of the things that we had there – oh, I should have mentioned, is that the sub-base – we used a lot of burnt red shale, residue from the coal industry. We did a wonderful job there, not just Preston Bypass but throughout Lancashire, because there were huge deposits of – and I suppose you’ve got them in South Wales, you know, where the – the deposit of excavated material from the mines was stockpiled, and of course it had quite a – a coal content in it. And eventually, due to pressure of the loading of the paths, it would set on fire internally and it would – it would burn, and you’d finish up with piles of burnt red shale. That’s what it was, because there was a lot of shale mixed in with it, not very much coal, obviously. And – and this burnt red shale was – was used as a sub-base material. Now the problem was that there was – you couldn’t really test it. you could test the – the stuff coming out of a limestone quarry because it would be screened and – and so on before it was loaded into lorries, but with the burnt red shale, it was a case very much of what it looked like. And it was quite variable. And this was one of the jobs of the clerks of works, by the way, to watch the lorries coming in and see what it looked like, and eventually say, ‘Well look, that’s no – no use. It might have a lot of clay mixed with it, for example.’ And, er, the – what was the point I was going to make? Oh yes, the problem was, of course, you’d only got limited access points onto the site off existing roads. You know, you couldn’t get on anywhere, only defined points, where a clerk of works would be at one of the access points and a lorry would come in and he’d look at it and say, ‘No, I’m not having

154 Harry Yeadon Page 155 C1379/82 Track 8 that,’ and he’d send it off, quite rightly. What they’d do, they’d go to another point and see whether they could get somebody to take it. So it was always a bit of a hit and miss affair. But it worked in the long term alright, ‘cause you’ve got the base material on top of that, the crushed limestone wet mix. But it was a risky basis. I should have mentioned this earlier, about the – utilising waste materials as a sub-base.

[45:20]

You mentioned that, you know, a lot of what you did was involved with bridge building, or supervision of bridge building.

Yeah.

Who’s actually designing the bridges?

Who was actually designing them? Oh well, our own team, yes, all of them. Oh, we didn’t have anybody else. No, we did it, the team. And there were some very competent fellows, no doubt about it. And I was only in on the tail end of – of the design. But the, you know, it was good stuff. And I mean, they weren’t – weren’t young men. I mean, you know, they were mature fellows. All gone now, of course, years ago.

How difficult is it to actually turn that bridge design into a real bridge on site?

Erm, well, an experienced contractor, you know, it’s a case of first things first. He’s got to get his – any excavation out first. He’s got to put foundations in, which could be pile foundations, depending on the ground conditions, which have been subject to boreholes being taken, etc, looking at what the material was, and when you could get down to a – a good base for the foundations to sit on. So it was either piled or not depending on whether you were getting down to rock or not. And then, erm, the next stage would be the – the piers, if there was a multi span bridge, piers, and then, once we’ve got the piers up, then you were going to be putting the beams in, whatever – whether they were steel or concrete, over which cranage would be used, lifting them

155 Harry Yeadon Page 156 C1379/82 Track 8 in. Or, er, launching, if there was – you could be launching a structure on rollers into position and then jacking up or down. But the – erm, essentially cranage, of course.

What other sort of machinery do you have to help you when you’re building things on the Preston Bypass?

Well, as I said, you’d have earth moving equipment for the earthworks. You would have equipment for levelling out the – the base materials on – on the bridgeworks side. Cranage, really. But you were always involved in building piers with shuttering and so on. And then, of course, certain bridges, which were faced with, erm, stone or – or brickwork of a special kind, etc. So there were all – quite a variety. Does that – does that help?

[48:35]

I think so. I’m just wondering, was any work still being done by hand, or was it all mechanised by this point?

Oh yes, to some – to some extent, but you wouldn’t be doing earthworks by hand, obviously, but you might be doing a string course on the bridge. By string course, it’s the construction – the concrete at the edge of the deck, which is supporting a parapet, for example, and that would be essentially hand work, with – dipping concrete in and a chap with a – with a float, you know, finishing it off.

Where do you actually work when the Preston Bypass is being built?

Where did I actually work? Well, we had a – quite a complex of – it’s one of the jobs of the contractor. You specify what you want in the way of offices. And we had – he’s building his own offices anyway in the same complex, and it was all within the – the interchange at Samlesbury. And so there would be offices for the contractor, offices for the resident engineer, alongside each other. You weren’t in the same office, obviously. So, you know, that was the setup.

156 Harry Yeadon Page 157 C1379/82 Track 8

What sort of buildings were they?

They were [clears throat] – they were quite reasonable. They were, erm, sort of wooden structures, that sort of thing, designed accordingly and worked very well. But you said what you wanted and it was up to him to – up to the contractor to provide that at an appropriate time. And if you didn’t get a decent office and so on – and of course the thing was always that the – if there was any tea to be drank, then the contractor provided that.

[Interruption – bringing tea]

In fact, it was interesting that in a magazine which I get every week from the Institution of Civil Engineers, weekly thing, and the editor was – was quoting about leadership in the construction industry and he made a comment that one thing he’d found, because he’d worked – he’d been in – followed army units around, trying to find the relationship between leadership in – in the services compared with leadership in the construction industry. And one thing that he found out in the – in the army, which he thought was reflected in the civil engineering industry, and that was the ability to drink tea [laughs]. In fact, it was – what was I going to say about drinking tea? Oh yes, I remember. Auditors – because, of course, we were doing all the measurement and so on, and we did it quite correctly, but, I mean, there were cases elsewhere in the country where the measurement and so on was – it wasn’t a fiddle in the sense nobody was gaining from it, but it was easy enough, if there was a problem and a dispute, to say, ‘Okay, we’ll measure some extra concrete. So you’ll get some payment but it won’t show.’ Now that’s bad practice, obviously. We never did that. It wasn’t worth it. And the – erm, what was the point I’m going to make about tea drinking? Oh yes, the auditors. We had internal auditors in the county council, who used to come round and audit things which they were capable of auditing, particularly if it was things that – they never questioned actual measurement and so on. But an auditor coming round on one occasion and him going through – through our books, if you like, and eventually, at the end of the day, only commenting on one thing. And we had a nice tea service in the resident engineer’s office, cups and saucers instead of mugs and so on. And the auditor, noticing this, sort of saying, ‘How is it that you’ve

157 Harry Yeadon Page 158 C1379/82 Track 8 got this, you know, tea service?’ And the reason was – we used to have site meetings, of course, with the directors of the – of the firm in the resident engineer’s office. And at the start of the job, I remember [laughs], with a crummy sort of mug, saying, ‘Look, I’m not going to drink anything out of that.’ And the following day, this tea service arriving [laughs]. And the auditor thought that he was onto something, you know, that we were on a big fiddle, and it was purely and simply for the director to drink tea in our office [laughs]. They were providing the tea anyway.

[54:20]

I’m wondering, what time does your typical day’s work start on site when you were building the Preston Bypass?

Well, I’d usually get on the site about half past eight, quarter to nine, something like that, and I might leave at any time. And, you know, depending on the time of the year. It might be sort of when it went dark or – but you’d always got office work to do anyway in terms of measurements and so on, and recording diaries, etc, ‘cause you recorded everything you reasonably could.

Once you got onto site, what do you do next on a typical day?

What did you do? Well, you’d be aware that there was some particular operation going on on that particular day, in accordance with the – the programme or amended programme, and you’d go out and have a look at it. And if a clerk of works was involved, you’d brief them as to what to look for, etc. So – and then you’d go from job to job. Now it was interesting that the – the contract provided for the clerks of works to go round the site on bicycles [laughs]. And of course, we – we used our cars, etc. But I remember on one occasion, putting my car – and it was a – it was on Preston-Lancaster Bypass and it was a concrete pavement, of course, and taking my car in for a service and the – went to collect it and the chap said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I haven’t been able to start work.’ He said, ‘It’s all blocked with concrete on the underside’ [laughs]. Anyway.

158 Harry Yeadon Page 159 C1379/82 Track 8

Just from driving over concrete?

Exactly, picking it up.

What sort of admin jobs do you have to do on site when you’re working on the Preston Bypass?

Erm, well, essentially recording what was – was done, and also ensuring that a – a good supply of photographs is taken, because of the potential of claims. Contractual claims, of course, do happen, and by and large we were able to settle claims amicably. And properly recorded details and so on, and – subject to audit, if necessary, if you were issuing a variation audit. You see, what would happen, the contractor would say – and this is – this is a classic case, which I was always arguing with my chaps. The standard clause in the standard conditions of contract, it’s all changed now, was always Clause 12, and that was where a contractor ran into some unforeseen condition, which you had not envisaged and so on, because you can’t be putting boreholes down or trial pits all over the place, over a long distance. You can’t do it, physically. And so you get a Clause 12 claim, where the contractor’s saying, ‘Look, you know, this is an unforeseen condition. I couldn’t allow for this in my tender because nobody knew about it.’ I mean, for example, a pocket of peat, which you missed in the boreholes and you didn’t know it was there. And it could be quite tricky in terms of having to dig it out to get a decent base in. And so what the engineer’s got to do is to say to the contractor, ‘Well look, I agree that it’s unforeseen.’ Quite often it was a bit of trial, which he should have allowed for anyway. So what you’d say to the contractor, ‘Well look, okay, let’s agree between us how we’re going to deal with the problem,’ and jointly agree what should be done and agree on the terms under which the work is – is carried out. There’s a variation order on the contract, which of course the engineer would delegate authority to issue. So you issue an order to the contractor and say, ‘Look, there’s the unforeseen condition. Go ahead and do it. Those are the terms on which your payment will be made. I’ll tell you when it’s finished and so on, and that’s the end of it.’ The worst situation is – and this was rife among inexperienced engineers throughout the country, is that they failed to handle the Clause 12 situation properly and they let things drift on without any firm decision

159 Harry Yeadon Page 160 C1379/82 Track 8 being made. And then, at the end of the day, you might finish up with a massive claim, which is built up. And you get claim experts, who build up a story based on – on this situation. And of course, all the facts have gone then. So it’s as well to get involved and sort things out before it gets really troublesome.

[59:38]

How do you actually get on with the contractors? ‘Cause it sounds to me like, you know, you spend a lot of time keeping tabs on what they’re doing and they’re trying to pull a fast one.

Yes.

How do you get on with them personally?

Oh, very well. Oh, very well, you know. You didn’t get involved with a chap called John Cox, did you? John Cox was Tarmac’s agent, who died a couple of years ago, and he and, erm, Ron Bridle were – one or two more of us, we started this motorway archive. And John Cox, he was very conscious of the – the difficulties that we were faced with, and wasn’t prepared to give very much, because he was – he was inexperienced as well. He admitted it. And, er, on – one thing that Jim Drake always took exception to – ‘cause the deputy agent was a prolific letter writer and he’d write a most – I won’t say scurrilous letter, but a very critical letter, and – criticising all of us, Jim Drake included, and he’d always finish his letter at the end by saying, ‘Assuring you of our best attention at all times’ [laughs]. And Jim Drake used to go through the roof. ‘What a load of bloody nonsense, best attention at all times and writing the most scurrilous rubbish.’ But anyway, it was all – it was all forgotten in the end and generally speaking you built up a good relationship and you called a spade a spade, and you respected each other. But you – you did have the power to get rid of somebody who was useless.

Did you ever have to get rid of somebody who was useless?

160 Harry Yeadon Page 161 C1379/82 Track 8

Erm, I think words were made. I think they did move people on, yes. Yes, but not very – not very often, no.

[1:02:00]

To come back to your – your day’s work, how long were you typically working for?

During the day? Well, you probably had a sandwich for lunch, or something like that, and – and that was – that was it. And, you know, plenty of cups of tea, etc. But, you know, you worked as required. And if he was doing a particularly difficult operation in terms of – of construction, then you’d stay until it was finished. And this is what you were expected to do. I mean, it was never put in – in writing in terms of your terms of reference. You were allocated from the drawing office, if you like, out on site and – and you got on with it. Yeah.

How many days a week do you typically work?

Depends on the time of the year, but quite often it was seven days a week. I wouldn’t say you – you would go in – if you were going in on a Sunday, you wouldn’t go in on the same hours that you would go in at – at other times. It depended what – what they were up to. Yes, the – you could be working all hours, no doubt about it. A lot of it, you needn’t have done, you’d – you’d let it go. But if you know it’s going to be pouring concrete in the dark, you know, is it going to be alright when daylight comes, you know. And so you – the contractor ought to know that you’re on top of the – top of the job, I think that’s the thing, so they don’t take chances.

What was the weather like when you were building the Preston Bypass?

Awful, awful, rain, rain, rain.

Does that cause any problems for actually building a motorway in the middle of it all?

161 Harry Yeadon Page 162 C1379/82 Track 8

Yes, it did, because of the earthworks, particularly. The bridgeworks weren’t affected materially by the – by the weather. They were affected but not materially. But the absolute headache for earthworks in the bad ground conditions, and with coming across all sorts of things which you never expected, peat for example. And you can’t – you can’t build a road on peat. You’ve either got to dig it out or load it and drive out the water of the peat. But we’d dig it out and replace it. That sort of situation. Yeah. But it was bad, no doubt about it.

[1:05:00]

I guess we’ve talked quite a bit about, you know, some of the things you had to do in building the Preston Bypass. I was just wondering if you could give me an idea of how it all came to a finish from your point of view. You mentioned opening ceremonies and things.

Yes, yes.

How does it come to a conclusion?

Well, you get to a point where it’s substantially completed, and then somebody lays on for some person, be it the prime minister or otherwise, to come along on a particular date, having agreed a day – a date with the very contractors that this was feasible. And then, of course, it’s a bit of a battle to ensure that they do meet that date, and by and large it works. You know, you get good cooperation and – and so on, because it’s – it’s their prestige which is at stake as well as everybody else’s, you know, to finish on time. But I can’t remember the extension of time. I think it’s probably in there, in that brochure. Five months seems to – seems to be in my mind but I don’t know.

Oh, the extension of time over the –

Over what was in the contract, yeah. But the contractor has to programme on the basis of what’s given him, unless – weather, of course, is a fully acceptable reason for

162 Harry Yeadon Page 163 C1379/82 Track 8 extending time, but no other, really, unless you – you vary the contract, in which case you’ve got to grant an extension of time, if you’ve issued a – a variation order, yeah.

Do you remember – I forgot what I was going to say [laughs]. Sort of working to – to a deadline, do you ever feel under pressure at all over the course of this?

Er, oh yes, feel pressure perhaps in – in thinking about giving an instruction to a contractor to take things down and saying, ‘Well look, you know …’ And of course the contractor saying – I remember on one occasion where I was instructing him to take a – a column down of a bridge, and of course the – the contractor saying, ‘Well look, nobody’s going to notice this, going at x miles an hour.’ So I said, ‘Well, that’s not the point. You’re under contract to produce things.’ And you’re open to criticism if you let something go and the engineer comes along and say, ‘That looks awful, you know. Why did you let it go?’

What was the problem?

Well, for example, the shutters moved and there’s a – a kink in the column, you know. It’s moved during construction, ‘cause he hasn’t given it sufficient support. It hasn’t been set out properly.

Do you remember the opening ceremony for the Preston Bypass?

Oh, I do, because – I mentioned this particular problem with – with this streaking down the bridge. Oh yes, I remember it well.

Could you talk me through that day?

Well, I – first thing in the morning, and then the entourage appeared. And of course there had been a lot of publicity beforehand so there were a lot of crowds. A lot turned up in the way of crowds of people, and schoolchildren and goodness knows what. I remember it well. And – yeah, quite a day.

163 Harry Yeadon Page 164 C1379/82 Track 8

How did you feel on that day?

Erm, well, a sense of – sense of achievement in a way. The – relief, to some extent. But of course, you then start putting things together, because one of the – one of the points that you – you’ve got to be prepared to do, particularly on structures, is to do proper records of as built drawings, as distinct from design drawings, which are not necessarily the same, because you may – may have had to change things to some extent. So those have always got to be properly recorded from the point of view of future maintenance and so on. So that’s always something. But the point was that the – the programme throughout the county was growing rapidly at that time, and so you – you were going onto another job almost immediately. And I must admit, and I admit to this, that the record drawings weren’t as good as you would like to have had them. But you were, you know, onto another job. And of course, it’s all in the book.

The official opening guide.

And it’s in the … where are we … oh, not that one. No, no, I was thinking of one we did … that’s Preston Bypass. Oh, there we are. That’s the one I was going to refer to. That’s one we did –

The M6 in Lancashire.

Yeah. And I wrote – wrote that, actually. And it was financed by the contractors, all the contractors on M6 in Lancashire.

[1:11:35]

I was wondering if you could give me an idea of, you know – what’s the significance of the Preston Bypass in the greater motorway story in Britain?

It was the first one. That’s the significance. Erm, the first one, and of course it led to the fact that we’d got the – we’d got the staff there, who were then experienced, and we could go onto all the other motorways in the – in the county, and indeed the

164 Harry Yeadon Page 165 C1379/82 Track 8 region. So it was significant. And we finished up with a greater concentration of motorways in the north west than any other part of the country. And the benefits there are considerable. I mean, for example, if you take M65, round the Blackburn area, south – the south side of Blackburn was almost inaccessible as far as roads were concerned, and yet the potential for development in a big way. And once M65 had been constructed – and in fact, a lot of preparatory work was made by – or taken by – by developers of different kinds, and of course it took off. And you – you’ve only got to go in that area, see what – what had happened as a result of the – of the motorway coming through there, which would not have happened if there hadn’t been a motorway. And yet the Department of Transport – I may have mentioned this to you before? No? Well, they came out at one stage, when we were pressing to get the – you see, the difference was, you got through to Burnley and from Burnley onwards, out to Colne, which is up to the Yorkshire boundary, this – the existing road was a county road. So the motorway replacing that county road became a county motorway. And there were such things, where we were financing them and – with grants, of course, from the Department of Transport. But it was our business entirely. And there were several county motorways throughout the county, as distinct from trunk road motorways. And, erm, we to get – to complete that section of county motorway long before the Department of Transport had got their act together. And in fact, although it was a joint enquiry, we started work and we were virtually completed with our section before the Department. We were still doing the Department’s job, but wearing another hat. But the difference was – was very pertinent.

[1:14:55]

And then, of course, the battle was, what do you do about getting from Blackburn, or Burnley if you like, through to M6, which was critical. And the Department came out with one of the first public participation exercises. It was quite ridiculous, because they came out – was it five or six different lines through and around Blackburn. Well, of course, all the people did, the public, they just knocked out, in terms of voting, if you like, it was all informal, without any recognition of what the – what was happening. And it was quite – it was an absolute waste of money. And eventually, at the end of the day, when they got the results of all this consultation in, a very fancy

165 Harry Yeadon Page 166 C1379/82 Track 8 business, they then came out with one solution, which was an all purpose road. And we’d spent about £130 million, I think it was, already beyond Burnley on a county motorway, and yet they were not prepared to – to have a motorway coming through to M6. And, you know, quite ridiculous. So we mounted – the county council mounted a deputation down to see Linda Chalker, who was the minister of the day. You probably remember her name. And we went down there, biggest deputation I went on. And we got – got [laughs] down there, and of course all and sundry, all local authorities, were represented, and the MPs and so on. Nothing to do with parties at all, political parties, except one. And it was a Conservative government at the time and the objector was a Conservative MP, who happened to be an MP – happened to be a civil engineer and always greeted me on, you know, Christian name terms. And it was quite ridiculous. He – he spoke up in front of everybody else. So I said to Linda Chalker, I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘I’m prepared to meet Den Dover,’ as he was called, ‘at any time he likes, at his convenience, and go through a report,’ which I’d prepared and we’d published, which he’d never obviously read properly. It was – it was disgraceful. And blow me, his secretary rang up a few days later and the only date he was able to give me was on a Saturday afternoon, when England were playing the All Blacks, which didn’t go down very well. But I opened up the office, got one of my chaps in [phone rings], and, blow me, you know, he’d never read the damn thing. So eventually Linda Chalker realised the importance of it and she said, ‘Right, we’ll go for the line,’ which was one of the motorway solutions, which was causing less trouble than anything else. You know, so you can get these ludicrous situations.

I guess that almost brings us to a close for today.

Yes.

But I’ve got one final question.

[Interruption – discusses phone call]

[1:18:30]

166 Harry Yeadon Page 167 C1379/82 Track 8

I’ve got one final question and that was, this is – the Preston Bypass was Britain’s first motorway.

Yeah.

If I was driving along there in 1958, how would it look different or the same to a motorway I might be driving along today in 2012? Are there any differences that would be obvious?

Oh yes, a lot of differences, because as I – did I mention to you that it was only opened as dual two lane carriageways? Did I mention that? Oh, again, that was Department of Transport cutting down cost. And we wanted dual three lane, Jim Drake’s traffic chaps at it, and the Department of Transport wouldn’t – wouldn’t agree. So we did get them to agree to put a wide central reserve in, so you could put another lane on from each side, to convert it simply into dual three. And that was done within eight years, I think, and that was a key thing. And then subsequently, when – the big argument was putting a motorway box round Preston, which failed on the west side, and Preston Bypass was torn asunder by widening it to dual four lane, and quite wrongly, in my view. It should have been the completion of the box round Preston, the crossing of the river.

Are there any other differences?

Well, the signing has changed. The place we went to the other day with this nature reserves, new interchanges were put in there for that. Oh, there were quite a – quite a lot of changes, because this changing to dual four meant that some of the bridges had to be demolished and rebuilt. And I never thought that in my life scale, bridges that I’d spent a great deal of effort in getting right, of course, went, replacement. Of course, we weren’t involved. The county council wasn’t involved. It was consultants. I’m not saying that, you know, they did a good job – they did a good job. But it was quite unnecessary. And the disruption in the area while this widening was going on, you know, it was – it was horrendous. And the – the police were driven up the wall in

167 Harry Yeadon Page 168 C1379/82 Track 8 terms of, you know, they were taking convoys at night through it because of the potential danger, because of the works that were going on.

Shall we call it quits for the day now?

Yes.

[End of Track 8]

168 Harry Yeadon Page 169 C1379/82 Track 9

Track 9

Harry, we finished off last time with talking about the opening of Preston Bypass and the building process of it, but I was wondering how you felt once it was all complete and over, you know, the first motorway in Britain.

Well, very relieved to some extent, because it had been a rough, very rough, time. And as one of my colleagues on the site at the time said, ‘We’re never going to finish this so and so job.’ But he was, I’m afraid, a pessimist. He isn’t alive anymore, but that’s by the way. But, erm, no, it was – it was sad that we had, of course, this damage, which was caused by the freeze thaw cycle, which I think I mentioned, because it became quite a political point, the fact that the prime minister had opened the – the job, and the opposition tried to make capital out of it. But Jim Drake was quite a tough character and fortunately the Department of Transport backed him, because they knew that it was very much an experiment, or a guinea pig, which I’ve mentioned before. But it was – it meant that we – we’d got work to do, of course, earlier than might have been expected, as traffic volumes increased and the – putting the final surface on became more and more important. And then, of course, the conversion from dual two lane carriageways to dual three lane carriageways, that came on earlier than might have been expected. And all this was in the context of no speed limit. That came later, not very much later but it was later.

Why do you recall it as a rough time completing it?

Erm, because there were so many odd things to do, particularly on the – on the bridges side, which I was mainly concerned about. One of the things, which I may have mentioned before, and that was the effect of, erm, the extrusion of liquids out of – out of the concrete where there had been any damage or cracking, and – and that was highly alkaline and stripped the paint off the girders of Samlesbury Bridge, because it was so alkaline. This is something which we had appreciated might happen. But it was all to do with the fact that the – the demand for cement from the local cement works up the Ribble Valley going to housing was such that the – the manufacturers admitted that the burning of the cement, which is part of the process of

169 Harry Yeadon Page 170 C1379/82 Track 9 manufacture, had not been done as well as it might have been. Not that there was any danger of failure in strength or anything like that. And of course, it soon went away. Anyway.

[03:55]

What happened to your career after the Preston Bypass was finished?

Well, I was immediately sent on to the Stretford-Eccles Bypass, which was round Manchester, which was going to be a motorway and is now part of M60, with the Barton High Level Bridge over the ship canal. And there’d already been one serious accident before I got down there, which was due to scaffold failure, and I found myself in a very difficult situation because of the activities of the – make no bones about it, the Liverpool sea erectors.

I think you’ve mentioned this.

Did I mention this?

Yes, I think we’ve talked about this in another interview.

And – and the inquest into the deaths of the – in the second accident became quite a cause celebre in a way, because somebody from the – I suppose the equivalent of the – what is now the Health and Safety Executive, sat with the – the coroner, because they realised that some better provision ought to be made in the legislation for the construction industry. And so it became very much a test case in that respect. Fortunately both Jim Drake and – and myself were not, er, duly criticised, because of the nature of the – of the problem. And so, you know, we got through that quite well. But we did finish the job, of course [clears throat], satisfactorily. It was a steel structure on concrete piers, as you probably know it now yourself, and quite difficult to – to supervise because the steel workers were keen to get as much steel up in the air as possible as far as their bonus payments were concerned, and therefore there was an absence of bracing. And unfortunately, although we knew more about the job -

170 Harry Yeadon Page 171 C1379/82 Track 9 because previous steelwork subcontractors had gone into liquidation, we knew more about the condition of the job than probably anybody did, even the main contractor, and yet we weren’t asked for our views and comments. And I think I may have mentioned, they left the firm which was leaving the site left four jacks in position, like having a – a car all jacked up on four wheels at the same time, unstable, and inadequate bracing anyway. And they decided to go ahead and jack, and of course increased the instability of the – the structure which was up, which was partially built. The deck had eight girders, eight main girders, and this was four of them on a pier, and of course they all went over. And that was the nature of the accident. But it did become quite important as far as the profession was concerned as well, because there had been one or two collapses elsewhere in the world in bridge construction, and the Institution of Civil Engineers, of which we were members, of course, they organised a conference, call it that, into failure of bridgeworks. And unfortunately Jim Drake wasn’t well when this was held, and I was instructed to go down there. And of course there was a lot of – well, I won’t say criticism but comment, which was adverse comment, particularly the – from the other side of the profession, and mainly the consulting engineers, because many of the consulting engineers’ firms thought that we as a local authority should not be carrying out works of that magnitude.

What was their objection to the idea of that?

Well, because they were hoping they would get commissions themselves, you see, to design major structures. And – but that didn’t happen. But we got the job finished.

[09:30]

You mentioned that it became something of a health and safety cause celebre.

Oh yes.

Could you tell me a bit more?

171 Harry Yeadon Page 172 C1379/82 Track 9

Well – erm, I’m trying to pick at the bones of it. I suppose they – they felt that there wasn’t enough control over the workers, the steel workers, who were on the – on the site. But what can you do? And we were – well, certainly I was under instructions, don’t get involved, because it was very much a union dispute and so on. And of course, as you probably know, the relationship – if you’ve got a main contractor and a specialist subcontractor, which applied in this case for the steelwork, strictly speaking you shouldn’t get involved directly with the subcontractor. You should only deal with the main contractor because that is the body who you’re – you, representing a client, are involved in. So that was one of the criticisms. How one of the firms concerned would have coped with that situation, of course, we don’t know. Anyway, we rode it out and, erm, we carried on.

Did you see changes to sort of health and safety on site in the aftermath of this?

Well, ultimately, but it took some – some time before the new legislation came out. But it – it’s still not perfect by any means on the construction side. And I’m not talking about bridges now. I mean, for example, a simple little thing, like chaps putting a drain in a trench. They did the trench out and they say, ‘Ooh, we don’t need any support for the sides of the trench. We think it’s alright.’ And then, of course, you go along, because you’re supervising the job, and you see what’s happening, and if you’re experienced you say, ‘That’s not good enough. That’s unsafe.’ So what do you do? Do you go in straight away and – and tell them to stop work and get out of the trench? If you do that, you’re immediately involved because the contractor will then turn – or those chaps on the site will immediately turn round and say, ‘Well, what do you want us to do?’ And then you’re right in it, because you don’t tell the contractor how to do the job, what you’re interested in is the finished work. So that – that’s never been resolved, that particular dilemma.

What’s the actual risk of telling the people on the ground directly what to do rather than going through the chain of contractors?

Well, if an accident did occur, well, while they’re getting out of the trench, or something like that, or they try to put timbering in afterwards and an accident – to

172 Harry Yeadon Page 173 C1379/82 Track 9 meet your requirements and the accident occurs, then they’ll say, ‘Well look, you told us what to do. It’s your responsibility,’ which is not very nice. I mean, that’s just a simple case, but you can get that sort of situation in other – other fields of construction. You don’t get involved with the day to day operations of the contractor. Your main concern is to see that what he’s doing does not affect the finished work. That’s the main criteria. But if you’ve got a good contractor and a good working relationship, the thing does not apply. But sometimes you get contractors who are prepared to take risks in order to get the job moving quicker, because it saves them money.

[13:55]

When abouts is the Barton High Level Bridge actually completed?

Erm, 19 – let’s see – it’ll be in here anyway. Erm, let’s see, Preston Bypass finished in 1958. It was about ’60, 1960, but we can – we can soon get that. About 1960.

What did you do after it was finished?

What did – do you mean what job was I on after it was finished? Well, of course, at the end of any job you’ve got a lot of winding up to do with things like record drawings and so on, which, I regret to say, was never done as well as it might have been because you’re always moving onto another job, and you couldn’t be doing two jobs at the same time. But we tried to produce good record drawings. And, of course, you’re settling any contractual claims, which are being put forward by the contractor, either during the course of the job or afterwards. And in the conditions of contract, which we worked to, which were known as the ICE conditions, which was the Institution of Civil Engineering conditions, but were put together by the three – the three bodies concerned, mainly the Contractors Federation and so on, and the institution and so on – I got very much involved in this in later years, on – on the conditions of contracts and so on. And the, erm – I’ve lost my train of thought now. What was – what was I saying?

173 Harry Yeadon Page 174 C1379/82 Track 9

I was wondering what happened to you after the completion of Barton High Level Bridge.

Oh yes, yes, that’s right. From then, the M6 was starting in a big way. I’m not talking about Preston Bypass or Lancaster Bypass, because Lancaster Bypass came after Preston Bypass. And in fact I’ve got a report, which is upstairs if you’re interested. And that was a report got out as to the pros and cons of doing Preston before Lancaster and vice versa. And the decision was, conclusion was, it was a bit sort of touch and go, because the north-south traffic was going right through the centre of both those towns, cities. Well, Preston’s a city now. Lancaster always was a city. And, as I say, Preston was given the clearance to go ahead first. Some of the lessons learnt – it started before Preston Bypass finished, Lancaster did, and some of the lessons learnt from Preston were put into operation, but in some cases it wasn’t – it was too late, really. You know, the overlap was there. I’d had some involvement in Lancaster Bypass when I was still in the design office, the old bridge [ph] up there. But anyway, the main input was – was getting Preston – from Preston Bypass down to and including Warrington, and linking up with – and of course, the other big bridge, Thelwall Bridge. You see, that was an advanced bridge. That was going ahead at the same time as Barton High Level Bridge, as – as – we were – we were following the principle of advanced works. Not – not trying to put everything in one contract – if we realised that there was a major obstacle in the way, like Thelwall, for example, crossing the ship canal, then if you can, to try and get on with that early, because you can get away across there early. And – and we did that in – in many other instances of advanced works. And I think we learnt a lot from that, which – conventionally, you would have put everything in the same contract, between Point A and Point B, but that wasn’t necessarily the right thing, because a big structure like that takes more time than perhaps a group of smaller structures and – and the roadworks that go with them.

What does the M6 actually connect, or what was it planned to connect, I suppose, when you started on it?

174 Harry Yeadon Page 175 C1379/82 Track 9

Well, it’s all in there. It was always recognised that it should go down into – into Cheshire. And of course, we were purely Lancashire. But there was a line for M6, which went further over to the east, closer to Manchester, but decisions were taken to take it down, straight down, into Cheshire, and then the Cheshire people, who we worked closely with, of course, would pick it up in Cheshire itself and take it down beyond there into – erm, well, as far as Staffordshire. And the Staffordshire people would pick it up from there. So it was a combination of the various counties working together at the appropriate time. But anyway, the next job, to answer your question, was very much M6. And then meanwhile, of course, Lancaster Bypass having been completed, because of the nature of the – of the terrain, if you like, and the fact that, erm, Cumberland County Council didn’t have the resources – they had sufficient resources to be able to do the first stage, Penrith Bypass, for example, the small bypasses, and they couldn’t really tackle the sections from Westmoreland, which was extremely difficult, of course, going up from the end of Lancaster Bypass, up into – into Cumberland and as far as connecting up with Penrith. So Cumberland County Council were carrying on with Penrith Bypass and then the other shorter length north of there.

[20:53]

What was so difficult about that particular stretch of road further north?

Through Westmoreland? Well, of course, it’s – the – apart from the terrain, the climatic conditions – and, of course, you were getting around Shap [ph]. This was – you see, the main route, as it existed at that time, was going over Shap [ph] and that got blocked every year, pretty well.

What’s Shap [ph], sorry?

Oh sorry, Shap [ph] is the high point of the crossing of that part of the Lakeland Fells that spreads eastwards. And you’ve got to get through that area. It’s quite a massif of – of geology and so on. So consultants – it was outside Lancashire. You know, we couldn’t be participating in that, obviously, and Cumberland couldn’t, so they

175 Harry Yeadon Page 176 C1379/82 Track 9 appointed consultants. So we worked closely with the consultants in getting it – they looked at various lines. There are reports on that, various lines that were considered. And they even considered to put a tunnel through there, through Shap [ph], and – or under Shap [ph], should I say, and – but that wasn’t pursued. But there were various alternative lines and there were quite serious studies, not only into the – the general character of the terrain, but also the geology of the area, plus, of course, the weather conditions which were likely to occur. And eventually the line which was taken, was pursued with public inquiries and so on. And then – I’m probably jumping ahead now.

[23:12]

Did – I mentioned the road construction unit. Do you want me to talk about that now? No?

Can we talk about it in a moment. There were just one or two other things that popped up in passing that I’d like to knock on the head before we get any further. And one of them was – you sort of mentioned the lines for roads, you know, and alternative lines to roads.

Yes, yes.

I’m just wondering, how do you actually decide which line to follow. Where is the decision actually taken?

Well, there’s a lot of experience necessary because – I think I mentioned this before. Earthworks are the most expensive single item on a motorway job. And what the ideal would be to balance the fill, but it never happens. But you try to get near that. But of course, you’ve got other controlling factors, like the crossing of – dealing with railway crossings and river crossings and so on, obstacles which stop you going for the – what would be the ideal line. So you’re looking for a compromise.

[24:20]

176 Harry Yeadon Page 177 C1379/82 Track 9

But looking ahead to M65 in East Lancashire – this was when the Department of Transport was getting very concerned about public participation. And – am I alright mentioning this at this stage? And we’d been involved with a line of M65 – I’m afraid I’m jumping ahead here. Barbara Castle was the MP for Blackburn. And Blackburn, of course, were a county borough and therefore a highway authority in their own right. You know, it was outside our ken, and as you probably appreciate. And Blackburn had got a – a line for the M65, going very much through the heart of Blackburn. And Barbara Castle said, ‘Over my dead body.’ [CLOSED 25:19-25:25]. Anyway, we – there were changes in – in government control, and we had lines going east of Blackburn, because we’d got into a situation, when the traffic routes were not trunk roads – they were not the province of the Department of Council. They were a county council matter. And so it was a case of – of striking a balance. And we went ahead with a major motorway programme, Blackburn, Burnley and so on, on that. And although we had a joint public inquiry with the Department of Transport, because they were – they were responsible for one section. We were responsible for the next section. And the public inquiries were held at the same time. We – because we moved quickly, we were able to start work twelve months ahead of the Department of Transport, which was under the control of the road construction unit, which – I’m straying into that area. But the Department produced a massive public participation exercise and they had – I can’t remember offhand whether it was five or six lines, all different colours. And they gave this tremendous publicity all over East Lancashire. And, of course, what happened was that any of the lines which came near to where people lived, they said, ‘Oh, we don’t want that one.’ And, you know, it was a case of – of knocking them out instead of choosing anything. It was an absolute disaster, the whole thing. And, you know, completely the wrong way of going about things. And eventually, er, they made a decision and the decision they made, which was stupid anyway – because we’d spent about – I think it was about £130 million east of the Blackburn area, round the Calder Valley, and they went for an all purpose road to get round Blackburn.

What’s the difference between that and a motorway?

177 Harry Yeadon Page 178 C1379/82 Track 9

Well, as I said earlier, a motorway is defined by the regulations which control the amount of traffic to go on it. How you design it is a rather different thing. But we had a situation where we’d developed standards of design, so that wasn’t in doubt. It was purely and simply the – the regulations. And it was ridiculous to think of having a section of the M65, or what should have been the M65, as an all purpose road. And I personally was dead against it. Jim Drake was dead – dead against it, because he came from East Lancashire. And we realised how important it was to get a motorway network serving those areas, because of the decline of, which I mentioned before, textile and coal industries. So they came out with this thing. And of course, with a lot of pressure from – from us, all the local authorities at that area, right from Preston, right up into the Calder Valley, thought this was nonsense. And I was asked to produce a report on this, which I did – I don’t know if I’ve still got a copy, but anyway – showing that this was the wrong approach. And the local authorities together decided they must see the minister. Now I don’t know whether, erm, the – Linda Chalker means anything to you, the name? Linda Chalker was the minister at the time. And she was a North West MP, from the Wirral, and so we mounted this deputation to go down there. And we had – I think there must have been about fifty members all wanting to get on board on this politically. And we got to this meeting, long – very long table in the Ministry. And I was asked to present this report, which – which I did. And everybody agreed – have I mentioned this before, about – apart from one man, who happened to be an engineer and always greeted me like a long lost friend and so on. And I said – did I tell you this at the time? And I said to Linda Chalker. I said – and he was the only one objecting to what we were saying as to the best line, to abandon this all purpose solution. And I said, ‘Well …’ It was obvious he’d never read this report, which I was concerned about, but it didn’t go down very well, because there was a mixture of Labour control councils and Conservative control councils. And I – and I said to Linda Chalker. I said, ‘Well, if you like, I’ll meet Mr, erm, Dover,’ his name, ‘any time, any place, and I’ll take him through this report as to why we should proceed on these particular lines.’ And she, of course, a good politician, said, ‘Oh well, thank you very much. That answers it then.’ And Den Dover tried to have a go, but we all went home. And it didn’t take all that long before Den Dover’s secretary phoned me and said, ‘Look, can we meet on a Saturday afternoon in your office in Preston?’ Have I told you this before?

178 Harry Yeadon Page 179 C1379/82 Track 9

I think so.

Yeah, I think so. Anyway, I won’t bore you with the details. But anyway, she came up very quickly and supported – against her own party member, because they were both – she was Conservative.

Who was Conservative, sorry?

Linda Chalker, the minister. It was a Conservative government at the time. She was Conservative. Den Dover was Conservative.

[32:28]

And – and the announcement came, as it so happened, on County Council Day. Well, as you probably know, the county council – I don’t know whether you’ve ever been in County Hall as such. It’s very impressive, the room. And of course, it was the days before reorganisation, you know, when there were several hundred members, actually. And, er, as a chief officer, you sat at the front, looking at the audience below the level of the chairman and the various committees, and you don’t speak, you see. You do in committees, of course, but you don’t in – in county meetings. Certainly we didn’t in our day. And I mean, you can pass messages up to your chairman, you know, a note or – or lean over and – and advise him, but you can’t – you can’t speak to the council chamber as such. And we were tipped off there was a decision going to be made that day about the M65. And they were all sitting there in the council chamber, and a chap came in, one of the clerks came in. He said, ‘They’ve just been on the phone and they’ve – they’ve agreed to what the proposal is.’ I said, ‘Well, thank you very much.’ And one of the leading Conservative councillors, who was very keen on this – and all I did was this [laughs]. She got the message.

What are you doing there? Could you explain for the tape what you’re doing there, please?

179 Harry Yeadon Page 180 C1379/82 Track 9

Sorry [laughs]. I’m saying that the message was good, you see. Anyway, that’s by the way.

So the thumbs up symbol.

Yes [laughs]. She got the message.

[34:30]

What’s County Council Day?

County Council Day is only once every – er, it isn’t every month. It’s about every – it varies, the days, two months or thereabouts. And that’s when the county council as a whole meets and the chairmen of the various committees – they have certain responsibilities, you know, whether it’s education or social services and what have you. And they – they report. I mean, the reports are produced and printed beforehand, but there can be a debate, of course, on a particular report. The opposition can have a go and say they don’t like what’s – what the party in power are proposing. So it’s quite a – quite an important day in that sense.

So why do you have to appear at it?

Well, you’ve got to appear to go to advise your chairman as to – on anything that might crop up.

Sorry, in what capacity are you there, I guess is the question I’m asking?

Well, you’re there as the chief officer, yeah, as – the committee I was responsible for, which was – in those days – well, you’re going way back, was the – it did change its name. Pre-reorganisation in 1974 it was the Highways and Bridges Committee of the county council [coughs]. Subsequently it became the Highways and Transportation Committee, because, of course, after ’74, although we’d lost territory, we’d gained a lot of additional responsibilities, which were thrust on my department. I mean, for

180 Harry Yeadon Page 181 C1379/82 Track 9 example, waste disposal part of – and particularly, of course, public transport and the coordination of public transport. So that’s how it got the name Highways and Transportation.

What sort of other people are actually on the Highways Committee at first?

Well, the – they’d chosen – I mean, they’re elected to the county council and then – I suppose they must – they do it – we’ve nothing to do with who goes on which committee. They decide that between themselves. And, you know, they have – well, they used to have a system like the whips, for example. You know, someone who was whipping the men and also suggesting to the chairman will have been appointed, the chairman of a committee. And it’s a case of who’s nominated. But it’s fairly straightforward.

So committees of councillors then, or …?

Sorry?

So a committee of local councillors then.

Oh yes, oh yes, they were all the local councillors. I think there may be some committees, you see – ah, the one last week, the police, the Police Committee. Of course, that had other members on it, as distinct from elected members, always had. Now that was interesting because the – the chief constable of the day, who I got along very well with – and he didn’t like to be bothered with attending county council meetings. And we’d all sit on the front row there, looking out to the audience, and the chief constable always sat next to me when he was there. And this was the point. And how often there was an empty seat and he’d said that operational duties forbid him attending. And oh, a law unto themselves, no doubt about it [laughs]. But there we are.

What sort of things does the Highways Committee actually discuss in your time with them?

181 Harry Yeadon Page 182 C1379/82 Track 9

Oh, massive reports. I mean, producing the report for the Highways and Transportation Committee was quite a mammoth exercise. You know, you could have anything from a major contract that you were proposing to let, or at least you’re inviting tenders perhaps – anything from that to a pedestrian crossing somewhere. You know, it was a complete sort of contrast from the big to the little. And often the little – the little jobs took more time and more debate than the big jobs, because the big jobs they’d probably say, if you’re acting as an agent for the Department of Transport, there isn’t very much you can say about it, except in the early stages, of course, when you – when you’re fixing the line. But once the job is underway then it’s very much a formality. But you take them out on a visit on site from time to time to show them what’s going on. And of course, you get questions from – from county councillors all day and every day. They’re always – I always worked on the principle that the county council phones, I’m obliged to – to reply.

What sort of matters do county councillors get in touch with you over?

Oh, all sorts of things, little – quite often quite little things. They soon get the message, of course, when you say to them, ‘Look, I can’t tell you the answer to this but I’ll put Mr So and So on.’ You know, so you put one of your minions onto them. You know, so it’s not – it’s not a one way street all the time, you know. You get to know them and they know where they can get the information they want. But you did try to – I got caught out on one occasion. I was only telling somebody about this, about one of the county councillors. There was a lady county councillor up in the – in the Calder Valley up there, and she was very keen on the M65, Conservative, ran a family business. And she said on one occasion, when we were trying to get the thing moving, trying to get it accepted in principle – and she said, ‘Look, I’ve got a meeting laid on,’ on a particular evening. ‘Do you think you could come over and – and tell them all about the proposal?’ So I said, you know, in the interest – we always worked on the principle, we’d go anywhere and talk to anybody, you know. As I said before, Jim Drake was the best public relations man you could find, and I followed his – his step to a large extent. So I agreed to go over there on this particular night, evening, and it was in the summer. And I realised that it was a bank holiday weekend, which

182 Harry Yeadon Page 183 C1379/82 Track 9 didn’t go down very well with the family, but that was by the way. I’d promised to go. So she said, ‘Oh well, come to …’ She was a widow, actually. ‘Come to my house and have something to eat first.’ So I arrived at her house [inaud]. She laid on a real spread just for me. And it was only when I got to this meeting that I realised that it was a Conservative ladies meeting. Now, of course, in principle you shouldn’t get involved with any particular party, and so on. So, you know, I could have walked out and said, ‘Look, you know, you’ve – you’ve trapped me on this’ [laughs]. But anyway, I stuck it out and never had any consequences, but, you know, it can happen.

I’m interested in – let’s take perhaps the M65 as an example. You talked about public inquiries quite a lot.

Yes.

Just in broad outline terms, what actually is a public inquiry and why do you have to have them for a motorway?

Well, you have it for all sorts of things, not just a motorway, but, well, we’ll take a motorway, shall we? You’ve got three types of statutory procedures to deal with. One is the line. The second is the – what we call the side road orders. That is where the motorway would be severing an existing road, or an existing road would have to be diverted to connect in, particularly where you’ve got a limited number of interchanges. So the side roads order, they’re quite important. And the third one is a compulsory purchase order for the land. Those are the three. Now in the old days, they used to be dealt with separately and then we got to the position where we would decide to take all three at once. By the way, the first one isn’t known as an order. It’s known as a scheme, but that’s a minor technicality. They are orders, in effect. And you’ve got to get over those three hurdles. Now if you’ve got a lot of objection when the orders or the proposals are advertised, you try to resolve those by discussion, go and see the people who have objected and explain to them in detail, etc, etc. And if you’re unsuccessful and can’t get them to remove their objection, which quite often we were able – were able to do, because we’d find that it was a comparatively minor thing that could be dealt with, then the Secretary of State would say, ‘You’ve got to

183 Harry Yeadon Page 184 C1379/82 Track 9 have a public inquiry.’ You’d still try to get them to withdraw objection to – to public inquiry, but that’s not all that easy, particularly when they start getting lawyers involved in it, the council and that sort of thing. And the same thing could apply at the other two stages, where you could have a public inquiry if the – if the objections are still standing and the compulsory purchase order. The – we became very competent at this. For example, take the other end of the scale, compulsory purchase order. Now quite often the compulsory purchase order, you can get round that by satisfying a farmer that he’s going to get proper accommodation work. By that I mean that, if his land is – is severed, then that he gets some access put in to relieve that. And particularly pertinent where there’s a dairy farm, when you might have cattle grazing in one area but his milking parlour is on the other side of the line you’re taking. And you can get all sorts of situations developing. But you work hard at it and the – the chaps dealing with the compulsory purchase order and the people directly with accommodation works, were very good, usually land surveyors by profession, not engineers, but worked closely with us and very good chaps. So it’s a combination of teamwork and so on, trying to get objections removed. Now Preston Bypass, going back, there wasn’t a single public inquiry because, of course, the line that was chosen had been put down on paper before the war, and therefore any new development had, of course, been restricted to keep clear of that line, you know, things like that. And the same – I think the same applied at – at Lancaster. Quite often, you know, they’d be minor. I remember one case between Preston and Lancaster, where a farmer stuck out and he wasn’t going to give way, and he wasn’t going to agree to the sale of his land by compulsory purchase. A public inquiry arranged, he never turned up, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, you’ve got to play it by ear. But there’s a lot of work to do on that side of things.

How long do public inquiries typically take? Let’s take the M6 or the M65 perhaps, whichever’s strongest in your mind.

Well, erm, they shouldn’t take long, but the inquiry itself depends – depends on whether you get barristers involved, which tends to lengthen things. But only a matter of days or a few weeks at the most. But quite often they could be quite brief.

184 Harry Yeadon Page 185 C1379/82 Track 9

What’s the actual process of one? Where does it start?

Well, it starts – it was interesting because – which job was it we were on? I can’t remember. The objections were quite – quite minor, really. They could be resolved easily. And the public inquiry only lasted a few days. It was only for one particular owner, landowner, that objected. And the inspector – because it was a relatively minor inquiry and there were no legal representatives at all. And I was – it was in the days of the road construction unit and I was taking the inquiry myself on behalf of the Department of Transport through the road construction unit. And – and the inspector was a retired town clerk, nice old boy, who wrote everything in beautiful copper – copperplate handwriting. And it got to the end of the proceedings in the – in the hall and this – the inspector said, ‘Well, if nobody’s any objection, I’d like to have a look round the – the site this afternoon,’ this is about midday, ‘to have a look at, you know, what’s involved.’ And of course, this was quite wrong in principle because when the site inspection takes place, anybody that’s involved who appeared at the public inquiry could go along, you know, with the inspector and – and go and look at the site and – and go along it. And nobody bothered about this. Nobody objected to him saying, ‘I want to go and have a look and I’ll – I’ll ask Mr Yeadon to come with me.’ And nobody objected. So we – we got out of the – the hall and we set off and I said, ‘Well, would you like – would you like something to eat or something like that?’ So he said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’d rather have a – have a pint of beer’ [laughs]. So I said – I said, ‘Well, the – I don’t think there are any pubs open at this time of day.’ It was late afternoon. I said, ‘But we could go over the border into Yorkshire, because the pub opening hours might be [laughs] different to ours.’ So we – we went backwards and forwards along the boundary, looking for a pub that was open. And it got nearly to opening time on the Lancashire side and we went in and the guy said, ‘Two pints of beer. Two pints of bitter.’ And when he wrote his report, in beautiful copperplate handwriting, he said, ‘All public inquiries are interesting experiences, but some – and pleasant experiences, but some are better than others’ [laughs]. Anyway, I’m afraid I answered that in rather a long way round. But no, it – it can vary tremendously, and of course you’ve got these characters, which you read in the press, I’m sure, who are, if you like, professional, you know, there was – what was it called? Swampy. Do you remember that? He got involved on the M65, you know, living up in the trees and

185 Harry Yeadon Page 186 C1379/82 Track 9 that sort of thing and just wouldn’t move. You know, the police come in and shift them and then they come back again. You get groups of this – these. And of course these are not purely and simply in Lancashire. But of course it became more difficult as time went on.

Do you remember when environmental concerns first started being expressed in public inquiries about motorways?

Oh yes, yes, I suppose – we didn’t have much of it on M6 at all. I suppose it was about the time – became very active on M65 in our patch. That was when it became very active.

When abouts is M65?

Oh, M65, running from M6 right across south side of Blackburn, connecting up with the county’s section of M65 on the east side of Blackburn.

When abouts was it actually being built?

When was it being built?

Roughly.

Erm, that particular section, you mean?

In general. When you mentioned the environmental concerns started coming up –

Oh, I suppose you’d say – you see, we had to opt out because the road construction unit had – had folded, had been disbanded, which – I can deal with that separately, if you wish. But I suppose it would be about – erm, let’s see. It was – it was when I’d retired. I suppose it was about the – 1985-‘6, something like that. Mid ‘80s, that’s when it became very active and it cost an awful lot of money, a tremendous amount of money, with police and goodness knows what.

186 Harry Yeadon Page 187 C1379/82 Track 9

Had there been environmental protestors before, earlier on in your career, let’s say?

Erm, not – well, there was one chap who was very active, who was – I suppose you’d call anti-environmentalist, who objected about something quite – quite trivial. He was a very keen walker and he objected to the diversion of a field footpath, and he wouldn’t budge. And, of course, there was nothing of any real consequence. It was just a case of changing the direction, you know, across a field, really, and things like that. And – erm, and I remember – it was after I retired, that was it, and the – the chairman of the county council – it was at the time of public transport coming to the fore. And I don’t know whether you’ve heard a name recently, Louise Ellman, does that mean anything to you? Louise Ellman, who was a very active Labour politician, a member of the county council, and she’s now chairman of the Highways and Transportation Select Committee in the House of Commons. She’s very prominent now. She appears on television from time to time. And I remember Louise Ellman, who, before she was – before she came to prominence, when the county council was in Conservative control, and I was deputy at the time – and in County Hall, among this mass of male – not many female members in the county council. And it was when the county council was a health authority and there was, erm, quite a debate about family planning. And she got up, cool as a cucumber, and she could have only been in her twenties then and she was about six months pregnant, you know – she was really tough. But on the other hand, she – she was the – she was in the situation of the main supporter of the M65 in East Lancashire, whereas the Conservatives, of course, were supporting roadworks in West and South Lancashire. And – and when there was a swing to Labour control – and I happened to bump into her on the – on the corridor the following day, after they’d – they’d won and she was going to be the chairman. And I said, ‘Oh congratulations, you know, on your success.’ And she said, ‘Oh, thank you very much.’ She said, ‘We can get on with the M65 now.’ I said, ‘Thank you very much. Just what I want.’ In principle you would have expected her in her position to be anti motorways, but she wasn’t because she supported East Lancashire with all its troubles and the declining industries and so on. You know, so she was realistic.

187 Harry Yeadon Page 188 C1379/82 Track 9

Why – why would you expect her to be anti motorways?

Well, there was a trend among the – a lot of left wingers in the country to be anti motorways and say everything ought to go on public transport. You know, you shouldn’t be building motorways anymore, you know. That was a trend, certainly.

When abouts was that trend?

Well, it was developing round about – I suppose the early ‘70s, yeah. 19 – I took over in 1974 but I was involved as a deputy from 1969 onwards, and it was creeping in then. But they weren’t getting anywhere. And there were a lot of realistic Labour councillors, who realised they’d got to do something for Lancashire, you know, that sort of thing. Anyway.

To come back to the idea of public inquiries and so on, where the road goes. Other than, I guess, just the topography of the situation, what actually decides on where the road should go? What are the most important factors in it?

Well, I’ve mentioned the – the earthworks side of it. I’ve mentioned railway and river crossings, which you can’t move. Well, I suppose you could move a railway crossing, but you wouldn’t. You know, it’s unlikely. So those are key – key factors. And the need for interchanges and bridges. And so you’ve got a lot of things to take into account when you’re looking for a line. But what you do first of all, you go out on your feet and walk the lines, and view them, you know, from – from the ground, with – with various maps and ordinance sheets and so on. So that’s your starting point. And then you come up with – then you prepare a report as to why you think a particular line is – is preferred. You might not get your colleagues or the boss to agree to that, but you – you’ve tried.

What are you actually doing when you’re walking the line?

Well, you’re looking for salient features. You’re also getting a view to what the geology might be like, you know, going through a swampy area or something like

188 Harry Yeadon Page 189 C1379/82 Track 9 that, or where there’s peat. You see, peat is one of our most difficult things to deal with. You know, there was always the one cartoon in the industry, The Problems of Peat, and it shows a chap with a wheelbarrow, with a drunken Irishman in it, the problems of Pete, you know. But peat is a difficulty, certainly.

What’s the problem with peat?

Well, it’s full of water. You know, you can get over a hundred percent moisture content in peat. But there are two ways of dealing with it, which we’ve used over the years. One, if it’s comparatively shallow, you can dig it out. And that’s what we did on M62 across South Lancashire, from Warrington through to – through into Greater Manchester, through to Eccles, because it wasn’t all that deep. And, of course, through that area – as you probably know, it’s a very successful horticultural area, you know, through there, for vegetable growing, etc, etc. And so what we agreed with the landowners there was to dig it out, work our way into it, and as we went forward, to put drainage systems in and – and cast the peat out to the sides, so that there was a build up of peat at the side. And this was in agreement with the owners, of course, and suitable compensation. But the drainage of – it’s always been said, of course, that the construction of the railway across Chat Moss, which is the area between Warrington and – and Eccles, across that area, was built on – on cotton. Now a lot of people thought, when that was quoted, that there were actually cotton bales put down to put the railway on. That wasn’t the case at all. It was built on the financial side of the importance of Manchester and Liverpool in the textile industry. So you can dig it out, if you can, or otherwise what you could do is to, if you like, press the water out of it. So what you do, you go in with an advanced contract, you know the peat’s there, and you load the peat with material which you’re digging out anyway, and you load it. And you put instrumentation in measuring the poor water pressure within the ground below, until such time as you’ve satisfied yourself that the water has been driven out. It can take quite a long time, you know. It can take perhaps up to a year in certain cases, if you’ve no real alternative but to do that. So, you know, that’s really the problem with peat.

Why can’t you just build on it?

189 Harry Yeadon Page 190 C1379/82 Track 9

Well, if you do that, it’ll just settle. And, of course, the difference between the railway across Chat Moss, which ran on peat, was that with a railway, what you’ve got, if you remember, you’ve got the ground as it is. You’ve got on top of that, you’ve got a build up perhaps of fill or of ballast, you know, crushed stone and so on. Then you’ve got the sleepers and then you’ve got the rails. Now over the years, you know, a century and so on, what you’ve got in areas like that, you’ve got a build up of ballast. You go along – the maintenance people go along and they introduce ballast underneath, by lifting the rail – the sleeper – the track, and stuffing, if you like, ballast below it. And then you let it rest on it again and you run the railway. You can’t do that with a road. With a road, if it settles, what do you do? You put material on top of the carriageway. If you’ve got potholes developing, or depressions, all you can do is to build up on top, unless you dig it out. And so that’s the difficult you – you’ve got, distinct between a – it’s not like a railway at all. It’s – erm, you know, it’s a road. And of course, one of the important things is, if you just let a road go to pot, you finish up with an unsafe condition and therefore, you know, you’re at risk of criticism for letting the road deteriorate and making it unsafe. Anyway.

When you were out walking the line, you mentioned – I was wondering if you could actually just talk me through a day walking the line. What do you actually do? What sort of things are you looking out for?

Well, you probably – first of all you’ll have got ordinance sheets out and you would have looked at the – at the general conditions, and you’d be able to pick out a certain amount of the – of the profile from contours. It’s very rough and ready, but you’ve got something to go on. So you – you’ve got an ordinance sheet, blown up to scale, with agreement with the Ordinance Survey, of course. And you’ve got a certain amount in the way of levels and so on. And you can see on the ground if you’ve got a railway or a river or something that’s going to cause a problem and you know you’ve got to bridge it. So that’s what you – you’re really looking for. And look at the feasibility of that line. So you can spend quite a lot of time going – walking the line, as we call it. In some cases you abandon it fairly quickly when you realise the problems you’ve got.

190 Harry Yeadon Page 191 C1379/82 Track 9

What sort of problems might you encounter?

Well, you know, the – if you find that you – you have got a big area of swamp, for example, you wouldn’t pursue that one. You know, that’s the extreme case.

What other, I guess, features are you looking out for? What sort of things?

Well, you can get an eye to it to see whether it’s feasible to – to build embankments on the approach to a river crossing, for example, to put a bridge in there or crossing a railway. You know, you can – you can judge that fairly accurately and you can draw yourself a profile. And then, of course, you – you’d follow that up – if you were going to pursue the line, you’d go along and survey it properly to get proper – proper drawings, proper plans, if you like, rather than just relying on the Ordinance Sheet. And you’d also take some flying levels along it, along the line, so that you’ve got a reasonable profile. And then you would have a discussion with your – your colleagues, you know, perhaps on the bridges side or on the drainage side. Now this is important, that you’ve got good drainage outlets, because there’s no point in putting anything down in a – in a hollow if you can’t drain it without pumping. And of course, so you’re really looking for an – an outfall which is in reasonable distance of being able to discharge the surface water and any groundwater into it. Now it’s interesting that I mention M62. The difficulty there with the peat as it was, digging it out, so you’re lowering the profile down. And the only way to drain it, drain that length, was a major culvert fed quite a long distance, and with agreement, fed into the ship canal, ‘cause that was one of the nearest main outfalls, in a way. And so that was – that was a bit unique. And, you know, it was a case of Jim Drake saying to the – the chaps working on it, you know, ‘Can you do it?’ You know, ‘Is it feasible?’ And of course, other obstacles as well, if you’re going through a waste disposal tip or something like that, which you don’t want to be bothered with. All sorts of different issues, and particularly in – in South Lancashire with the coal. Of course, that’s another factor I should have mentioned. Oh yes, I should have mentioned that. South Lancashire with the – the old coal workings, lots of them.

191 Harry Yeadon Page 192 C1379/82 Track 9

What sort of problems do they cause?

Well, you could have shallow mine workings, which – I’ve got photographs of them, actually, where – they are very shallow, and as you dig down to form, you know, your cutting, if you like, you run into those workings. And they’re still there, you know, with the – the pit props in them, etc. That’s the problem you’ve got. The deep mine workings, which have never been filled in, you know, from the old coal industry – lots of them in South Lancashire. And so what we did there is to cap them. And by cap them, putting a reinforced concrete slab over the top of the – erm, the excavation, the coal excavation – the pit, over the top of the pit. And what we did on M6 – these were very prevalent. And we had to go through that area. There was no other way. We put, at the side of the motorway, on the cutting or – I don’t think it applied then – it might have applied on the embankment as well, a white painted slab to indicate that there were mine workings there, so to watch out. Purely and simply for the maintenance point of view. Fortunately we never had any serious accidents, but what we tried to do – what we were concerned about is settlement generally, general settlement from mine working, which meant that the whole of the area was going down, not just localised for the – for the motorway. And so that was something which we had to be conscious of. But it’s quite a problem in South Lancashire. I’m not saying that’s unique, because there must be other parts of the country which suffer the same problems. I mean, in certain cases we – we’d deliberately avoid the mine working, particularly if they were active. This was – this was one of the difficulties. And we had to work with the – the Coal Board and say, you know, they’d say, ‘Well, don’t go through this area, you know, we’re still – it’s still alive as far as we’re concerned and we still – there’s still coal there to be extracted.’

How much are you actually – how much do you actually know about how many people will use the roads before you’ve actually built the motorways?

Ah, well, of course it’s – it’s in there to some extent.

The road plan for Lancashire?

192 Harry Yeadon Page 193 C1379/82 Track 9

Yeah, yes. We knew that by, erm – by, say, taking how traffic flows have increased in – in recent years, how they’re growing, and projecting that forward. But, erm, normally we’d be looking for what the situation might be in, say, twenty years’ time, or something like that. Depends on which scheme it is. But we’d do an analysis of traffic flows, how development is going to take place in the area in terms of – of industry and housing. That would be a very important factor. And, of course, local knowledge and so on. This is why, you know, I feel quite strongly that we Lancastrians that were involved in this knew the area very well, you know, born and brought up there. You know, you got a feeling for the – for the area. That is important and it’s very important as far as the public are concerned, you know, the sort of Jim Drake philosophy, where he – he’d be able to go in, I suppose I did to some extent, and say, ‘Look, you know, we’re going to – we’re going to build this motorway eventually and I’ll still be here. You can still get at me. You know, I’m still accepting responsibility,’ which is – isn’t what you get with a firm of consulting engineers who come into the area with all their staff, perhaps a lot of temporary staff and so on and – and contractors – and I’m not saying this unkindly because they – they’ve done a good job, but here today, gone tomorrow, you know. They’re not there any more. But people on the – on the ground, the public, like to know somebody they can get at, you know. I remember a situation where we had a very dry spell – I think it was on M6, yes. And there was a market garden close by, growing tomatoes, and complaining of, you know, you can’t win. Good weather, dry condition, good conditions for growing tomatoes but getting a lot of dust [laughs], you know. You can’t win.

Dust from the motorway then?

Oh well, during construction, you know, it can be a very, very dusty place, with everything drying out.

Who actually makes the decision at the end of the day about where the road goes, or the motorway goes?

193 Harry Yeadon Page 194 C1379/82 Track 9

Well, basically the boss makes the decision in terms of, that is the one we’re going to push. You might not win, and particularly if you’ve got to get the Department of Transport – if it’s a trunk road motorway and they’re paying and they’re doing the statutory procedures. You’ve got to work with them, obviously. You don’t want a situation where you’ve done a lot of work and then somebody turns round and says, ‘Oh, that’s not right.’ You’ve got to take people along with you and – and be all together when it comes to potentially a public inquiry. You don’t want knickers in the woodpile, as it were.

Who is the boss who’s deciding? Is it the minister or Jim Drake or …?

Well, it’s Jim Drake pressing people in the Department of Transport, basically, and, you know, working with them. I mean, you know, there were some very good engineers in the – in the Department of Transport. I don’t want to criticise them. They were very good chaps and you got to know them well, and they got to know you well.

Any you remember in particular?

Well, I think the – when the road construction unit started, and I’ll talk about that later if you wish, the chief engineer, or the director of highways, I think his title was, who was – ah god, it’ll come back to me. I can soon look it up. And he was – he was an excellent chap. Harris, er, Sir William Harris, he became. He was very good. And although he’d been – he was an engineer, of course, civil engineer, and had been very much involved with the Admiralty on port construction, but that, you know, a good civil engineer. And, er, yes, and I give full marks to him. John Paisley [ph], he was good. Erm, oh, I could find lots of names of people that were really on the ball and would support you. I think this is the thing.

In what sense were they good?

Well, good. They were – er, they were competent engineers, in the sense that, if you were – if your studies and reports had shown that there was a particular problem and –

194 Harry Yeadon Page 195 C1379/82 Track 9 and you’d shown how you proposed to deal with it, you know, that they would – you would discuss it with them perhaps before you finalised your comments, and say, ‘Look, this is what I propose to do, you know. Have you any – any objections?’ And yeah, we played it that way. Some of them weren’t so good, but you get that in any organisation, don’t you? You know, and somebody said – can be quite awkward and purely and simply looking after their own personal interests and their future careers, you know. That does happen.

Could you give me an idea of, I guess, what sort of interaction you have with the Ministry of Transport? You know, what sort of meetings, what sort of links, perhaps over the period of the M6 as an example?

Well, what we found – yes, I’m glad you mentioned that – is that they will appoint a – a liaison officer, who is an engineer. Now he would have – and you got to know him well, and he would be – he’d pop in at any time, sort of thing. He’d be looking after more than one – one particular section of motorway. But – and you would – you would save up items to discuss with him, apart from anything else. And these chaps were very good, you know. They were experienced and so on. So there was the liaison there and they would report back to their – their seniors back in the Department of Transport headquarters. But you would be perhaps having odd meetings in London, in the Department, or perhaps several of them would appear together – particular tricky problems and, you know, a lot of finance involved, etc. Because at the end of the day you’re having to satisfy the people holding the purse strings that it’s value for money. This is important. By the way, changing the subject, did you – do you listen to the radio much? I happened to have Radio 4 on, as I often do, last Tuesday, and in fact it may be on tonight, File on Four. And there was a piece on there which was really scathing about the Highways Agency. Of course, you’ve probably heard the rumours that the government are going to scrap it. [CLOSED 1:23:27 – 1:23:42] But, er, this programme last week, which was criticising Highways Agency and saying how they’d got it all wrong, and they were quoting A14, if you know it. It goes across to the east coast ports, Felixstowe and the Midlands, very important route for industry, and how they’ve been faffing about for years and – and not getting anywhere and changing their minds, and a terrible

195 Harry Yeadon Page 196 C1379/82 Track 9 indictment. Mind you, it was – I mean, one thing that I kept saying – got my wife bored in saying, ‘Look, alright, they’re criticising the Highways Agency. Why don’t they say something good about what we used to do and the way we did it?’ Now no mention of that at all.

What do you think was so – what was so good and effective about the way you used to do it compared to now?

Well, it was – you were always looking for the next job, that was one thing, as part of the road plan, if you like. That was the bible, you see. And fortunately, although it was produced entirely by the county council, no backing from the government department, the fact that we were required in those early days to produce structure plans, which I’ve no doubt you’ve heard of – we produced a structure plan in the county council. That was included as part of the structure plan. So when the – when government accepted the structure plan, they accepted the principle behind that document. It was a very clever move was that [laughs].

What is a structure plan or what was a structure plan?

Oh, a structure plan was – was looking to the future of – all the counties had to produce them and – quite tedious, essentially the role of the planners, the county planners, of course, their job. But it had to bring into account all the future development of the services in the – in the county council, in effect. So, you know, it was important that that was included. That’s what we wanted to do.

Could we talk for a little bit about what that actually is, and that in this case being a road plan for Lancashire from 1949? For someone who doesn’t have the benefit of a copy on their table, would you mind introducing it to me and just explaining a little bit about it?

Well, I think, to – may I – may I refer to the statement in here, because I think it all depends how far you want to go into it, but it does outline the case … oh, there … that’s the geology. The origins of the motorways in the region. Er … where does it

196 Harry Yeadon Page 197 C1379/82 Track 9 mention the road plan …? Planning for the future in the post-war period. You see, that – that has all the standards … here we are, we’re getting somewhere … planning for the future of the post-war period. That’s the critical thing. In 1945, Drake was appointed county surveyor and bridge master, a post he was to hold for twenty seven years. That time, the emphasis was on planning for the future, and in 1947 the county council accepted his suggestion that a road plan should be prepared. The principle types of traffic movement were carefully analysed. That’s the starting point, i.e., that passing through the county on long distance journeys, cross border movements to and from points within the county and traffic movements within Lancashire itself. Those are the three types – types of movement. The result showed that, despite some improvements undertaken in the 1930s, the existing road network was quite unable to cope effectively with all these movements. It was also clear that the situation would deteriorate further as the volume of traffic increased. You know, they’re quite simple statements. In order that a future road network should be as safe as possible, a major pioneering research programme was undertaken, by analysing the accidents which had occurred. A new understanding was obtained of how different layouts, traffic controls and other features affected the number and types of accident. So it wasn’t purely and simply motorways, of course. Using this information, it was possible to forecast the accident savings which could be achieved as an element in establishing the economic justification of the proposed scheme. The trunk class one and class two roads had to bear the brunt of heavy through traffic. It was felt that their importance warranted a fairer system of funding and hitherto Lancashire, with its heavy industries and popular holiday resorts, had to cater for a weight of traffic quite out of proportion to the mileage of its main road system. You know, traffic was there before traffic had really grown, in 1949, or in the late ‘40s. It was therefore contended that resources should be allocated according to population as well as road mileage. And then it goes on about the – er, the future and so on. And it mentioned the first group of roads, there should be twelve express routes with dual carriageways, totalling 217 miles in length. Ninety four miles were to be of motorway standard. And all these routes were chosen to attract the highest volumes of traffic. You know, that all this is – you’ll find it. It’s on page ten. It goes onto then specific, erm, routes, like the north-south route and the Liverpool-East Lancashire road. And that’s – that’s an interesting one.

197 Harry Yeadon Page 198 C1379/82 Track 9

How closely does the actual road plan in Lancashire that you work on, the motorway system, actually mirror what’s in the road plan for Lancashire?

Very, very closely. The – the difference, I think – it’s spelt out in here. If you take, for example, East Lancashire, getting from Preston, you might say, you know, the hub, from that area, focal point, out into East Lancashire, then it was never envisaged at the beginning that there would be a motorway through there. The A59, which is the one along the Ribble Valley into Yorkshire, that was thought to be the – the answer. And of course, that changed. And, of course, it was always recognised that the – it wasn’t – they weren’t tablets of stone. There could be amendments made. If you take the M62, take the East Lancashire road, which you know, I’m sure, Liverpool to Manchester, the – it was thought that that, by improving it, could be – could cope with the movement. One of the first major jobs I was given was to look at the East Lancashire road and look at what needed to be done to improve it, because it had been constructed as an unemployment scheme before the war. It had lots and lots of accesses, mainly unsafe. You know, farmers’ gates coming onto the road. It only had a single carriageway. But the land had been acquired for more. And I got schemes out to improve it up to dual carriageway standard and deal with some of the difficulty – difficult access points, which were there. So, you know, that was – was not a tablet of stone. On the other hand, the M6 was. That was a key factor. The M61 in Preston-Manchester, that was a key one. And of course the outer ring road round Manchester, that was a key one. You know, so the – but it wasn’t – it wasn’t unrealistic and it was intended – the timescale, realising the financial situation and so on – and we were talking about a thirty year period. That was what it was based on. And it was also based on – on projecting forward what finance was necessary based on what had been made available before the war and then projected forward in – in the new situation. So it was very much a moving situation, depending on the – how things grew and how climate changed.

Is – I’m just wondering as well, you know, is the road plan for Lancashire something that just sort of appears in 1949 and that’s it with it, or do you refer to it along the way as well?

198 Harry Yeadon Page 199 C1379/82 Track 9

Oh no. Oh, we referred to it on – on the way, because there’s a lot of stuff in there which isn’t purely and simply motorways at all. I mean, there’s the improvement of the existing road system. [Interruption – wife bringing lunch] So they were – I think I’d have to read through the road plan again [laughs]. But it was – it was used very much as a – as a basis, particularly on the – which roads were – were significant and important to particular areas. And of course, the local authorities went along with it. There was a very close working relationship with the – the county council, who were the main highway authority. But the county boroughs, like Preston and Burnley and so on, they were county boroughs in their own right. But Jim Drake developed a very close working relationship with them and – and we did a lot of work within the – within the county boroughs themselves in the county. I remember when M61 opened and the minister of the day – what was he called? Ah, I don’t know. And we went to this opening. And we’d been – we’d been doing the M61 through the road construction unit, and, erm, after the – I can’t remember his name. It’ll come back to me. And he was saying in his speech at the opening, he was opening this section of motorway, how wonderful, erm, Lancashire was. As it so happened, he was standing in the middle – I won’t say in the middle, in a major part of Greater Manchester. It was after 1974, you see. So we all went off to – for lunch in the Town Hall and somebody must have mentioned to him that he’d made a faux pas, saying what a wonderful place Lancashire was and he wasn’t in Lancashire. So he got out of it, the politician, by saying, ‘I realise that I said what – Lancashire, a wonderful place, and I take nothing back. It is. You know, it started the industrial revolution,’ and he waxed eloquent about this. But [laughs] it just shows.

[End of Track 9]

199 Harry Yeadon Page 200 C1379/82 Track 10

Track 10

I guess we’ve spent this morning talking about quite a variety of sort of motorway topics more generally over quite a large chunk of your career. But I was just wondering if we could – if we could focus down a little bit onto you and what you yourself are doing in this period. You mentioned that after the Preston Bypass, the first thing you became involved in was the M6. Doing what exactly? What was your role on that?

After Preston Bypass? Well, I explained, I went onto Stretford-Eccles Bypass, which was – involved the supervision of the construction of Barton High Level Bridge. And after I left that, went onto the – pretty short period, the Preston-Warrington section of M6, which was – started with two main contracts. And of course, the Thelwall Bridge, which was part of it, had started early as advanced works. I wasn’t on those contracts all that long before I was appointed resident engineer of the section of M6 between Preston and Lancaster.

[01:25]

At that time there was quite a lot of competition between the cement industry and the – you might say, the bitumen industry, black top, and we were required to seek alternative tenders for carriageways in both those types of materials. Erm, to everybody’s surprise, because it was a highly competitive market at the time, the tender for a concrete pavement came in at the lowest. Now I’d already been appointed resident engineer and Jim Drake, I think, came to the conclusion that there wasn’t enough experience of concrete construction, pavement construction – by the way, when we use the term pavement in that sense, it’s not a footway. It’s the – it’s the actual – the slab itself. So it was decided between him and the representatives of the main contractors who put this lowest tender in, that we ought to go into the States and see what the present practice was over there, to which I was invited to join the party. So we had representatives of the county, the contractors and the Cement and Concrete Association, because they were the trade organisation promoting the use of – of cement. It was quite an interesting trip, but mainly on the eastern side of – of the

200 Harry Yeadon Page 201 C1379/82 Track 10

States, covering Long Island and as far west as Chicago, where they had a main centre for concrete construction research. So we came back with various ideas and one of them was that – the Americans didn’t put expansion joints in their concrete pavements, which of course is a difficult thing to do, to form them and to make them operate satisfactorily as far as the slabs are concerned. It’s not easy, because you’ve got to have load transferors. If you just put the slabs together you’ll get steps developing from one to the other, so you’ve got to put bars across the joint and so on. We tried to get the Department of Transport and the Road Research Laboratory in this country to agree to that, to using those methods of no expansion joints, putting contraction joints in. Because as the concrete is – is gaining strength and curing, they – they tend to contract slightly, and that’s what the Americans relied on, that as the concrete was gaining strength, it would create gaps, if you like, in the form of cracks as contraction joints. Anyway, I won’t go into too much detail on this. So we set off doing that. And the contractors got a specialist concreting train, as we call it – ‘cause it had all the different pieces of equipment required to layer concrete pavement like that. First of all you had to have truck mixers to deliver the concrete from a matching plant and then you had a machine to spread it across the full width of the slab. And then you had – if you got two – two layer construction, which we had in our case, because it was felt that the aggregates we were using – we’d got plenty of good limestone, the limestone was good, but limestone does not provide a good skid resistant surface. So we had, in the top – the ten and a half inch slab, in the top two and a half inches or thereabouts, we had a granite aggregate concrete, because that gave better skid resistance. So there were various problems. Whereas in a black top road of any kind, once you’d got to the stage of putting the black top down, it’s easy. You just put the machine on and feed it and away it goes. The trouble starts on a concrete road once you start to put the concrete down, ‘cause you’ve got all these factors to take into account, expansion, contraction, load transference and so on. But anyway, we went ahead and we did it.

[07:30]

It was an interesting contract because we’d got some quite interesting structures on – on that section between Preston and – and Lancaster. Two extremes, one, the – I

201 Harry Yeadon Page 202 C1379/82 Track 10 don’t know whether you’ve seen this. If you’re going north, once you get north of the end of Preston Bypass into that interchange, you’ve got a big bridge on a curve, which is known as Fylde higher bridge, because it’s the Fylde area round here, Fylde higher. And that was interesting because that was a – a box form of construction anyway. Anyway, so we had that and then we had a bridge which carried a water course over the top of the motorway. It was the motorway was right alongside the railway, with bridges for farmers crossing the railway, so we had to build bridges to give that continuity because they were close to each other. And this one carried this … [Phone rings] And so, erm – so it was quite interesting. And one – at one part, we were right alongside the mainline. That’s the England-Scotland mainline railway. We had to be very careful that we didn’t cause any disruption to rail traffic, particularly where we were carrying out earthworks alongside. So that was a – that was quite tricky.

Did you ever cause any disruption?

No, not as far as I remember. No, we didn’t.

[09:30]

What does a resident engineer actually do?

Well, in civil engineering contract, you’ve first of all got the client, which in our case was the – the county council, even though we were acting as agents for the Department of Transport. The engineer – the contract requires the appointment of an Engineer, capital E, and this – in these cases that’s – at that time Jim Drake was the Engineer. Now obviously he can’t be in full day to day – with all the other jobs he’s got to do, as I mentioned, pedestrian crossings, etc, etc, so he appoints a resident engineer and the resident engineer is fulltime on the site, representing the Engineer and, in fact, the client – well, in effect the client. And the resident engineer could have quite a big staff in terms of assistant resident engineers, clerks of works, inspectors and so on, depending on the size of the contract.

How big a staff did you have on the M6 when you were resident engineer?

202 Harry Yeadon Page 203 C1379/82 Track 10

When I was resident engineer on that section, I probably had in total about thirty to forty people. That includes clerks of works and inspectors, as well as engineers. But it wasn’t a constant figure depending on how the work was proceeding, etc. But a very interesting job to do, but you were expected to be available pretty well all hours God sends. If the contractor, as they would often do in good weather conditions and if the other conditions were right, would work all day and every day, more or less, weekends, etc. You were expected to be available because problems can occur with any operation, which you’ve got to ensure is carried out properly. And that’s where the role is. So it was very much a – a fulltime job.

[12:08]

Can you give me some idea of, I guess, the size of this particular part of the M6? How long is it? How many people are actually involved in building it?

Well, the – the section concerned was – what was it, about eleven miles long and so on. And of course, one – one feature is that the under-bridges – by under-bridges I mean the bridges carrying the motorway – the concrete pavement was not carried over the bridge decks. It stopped short of the bridge decks. And the reason for that is that you tend to get settlement on the approaches to the bridges. Imagine a bridge like that and you’re coming up to it and you’ve got to make quite sure you’ve got the compaction of the material immediately on the end of the bridge. So that – that causeda problem. The other thing was that cement was still in short supply and was actually coming all the way up from Kent by rail, and when – when things were going well, the concrete train was – was really moving, and we were talking about considerable length cast in a day. And of course you’ve got two carriageways anyway, two slabs. Erm, you – you’ve got to be very careful you don’t run out of cement, otherwise the whole thing grinds to a halt. And I remember on one occasion, when Marples, you remember Marples, who was the Minister of Transport, Ernest Marples, he was a good character. He came up on a visit once and we took him round the job, and of course he’s stood on the top of the machine and so on and holding forth. And we were talking to each other alongside, little do they know it’s going to

203 Harry Yeadon Page 204 C1379/82 Track 10 come out tomorrow because the concrete that was faulty that had gone in, into the slab, and it all had to be ripped out the following day. He didn’t know. He was getting all the press coverage [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way, these things happen. Anyway, the job went ahead and it was duly opened and opened on – on time. In fact, where’s that brochure I had? Did I put it away somewhere?

I think they got moved.

Did they get put away? The black and white one?

Hang on a second. Let me pause this.

That’s the big bridge I was talking about on a curve.

The one on the front cover of the opening brochure of the M6.

That’s right. And there’s some – I think you’ll see the odd – you can borrow some of these, if you like. By the way, that was a nice bridge. That got a Civic Trust Award.

Snowhill Lane Bridge.

That’s right. A lot of people thought that the bridge had settled at one end, and [laughs] it was because the ground was a side long ground [ph], etc. And that, by the way, was the – the first three level interchange in the country, that one at Broughton.

Things like three level interchanges, who actually plans them that way?

Well, you’ve got a – it’s a case of what the movements are. You know, the M6 is – is going right through and then you’ve got the link off to the – down to the A6 and across to – ultimately to the M55, across in this direction. That was another interchange. You can borrow this, if you like, Tom. But the – there you are. That’s the concreting train with all the various types of equipment involved in laying the – the slab.

204 Harry Yeadon Page 205 C1379/82 Track 10

How different is it working with concrete compared to working with bitumen that you normally use?

Well, it’s a lot different in the sense that you – you cannot get a proper judge of the quality of the concrete easily until it’s gained its strength and so on. So I think I may have mentioned this before. What you’re doing all the time is forming cubes, six inch cubes, of concrete, let it be cured and then crush it to see whether you’re getting the strength. That’s one way of doing it. The other is the slump test, which I mentioned, because the water-cement ratio is critical in getting strength. And you don’t want too high a strength concrete. You want it right, because if you go for too high a strength concrete, you will get contraction, excessive contraction, and, erm, loss of – loss of strength. But anyway, that’s the concreting train. So that was very successful. And I think you’ll find in the brochure there, it’ll quote the number of feet of concrete laid in a day, somewhere. Is it there? It’s there somewhere, anyway.

The maximum length of thirty six feet wide carriageway laid in a twelve hour working day was 2,520 feet, a European record.

That’s right, which was virtually half a mile, nearly half a mile, anyway.

[18:15]

When you talked about the Preston Bypass last time, you mentioned that it was very much viewed as a guinea pig. By this point a few years later, I guess the M6 – there’s, well, five other motorways before it now. Have standards emerged yet in terms of how you actually go about building a motorway, or was it still –

Have standards – there’s standards in terms of geometry, that is widths and gradients and so on. That’s been the standard almost from the year dot. In imperial terms, it was – a two lane carriageway was twenty four feet. A three lane carriageway was thirty six feet. On Preston Bypass, as I explained to you, there was a wide central reserve put in, for which a lane was taken out to make the third lane. That lane is

205 Harry Yeadon Page 206 C1379/82 Track 10 substandard. We didn’t allow – we didn’t allow enough, as it so happened, but it’s given no problems. It’s slightly narrow. I think it’s thirty-three instead of thirty-six, or something like that.

Compared to the Preston Bypass, had the methods for building a motorway, planning a motorway, come along, developed?

Erm, no, not really. I think we – I think we learnt from Preston Bypass and we adapted. The only thing which has really come to the fore in recent years is the hard shoulders, because our hard shoulder construction was quite primitive, if you like. It wasn’t properly surfaced. It was a hardened verge, really, using crushed stone and so on, and sown with grass – grass seed. And they were quite inadequate. As I may have mentioned before with a case of – if a heavy lorry got a puncture or something and had to change a wheel, you know, the jack went down rather than the vehicle going up, you know, because the strength wasn’t there. That was probably one of the – the most important differences, apart from the finer points of bridge design, with pre-stressed concrete, post-tension, pre-tension, which I think I mentioned to you before. But by and large, it hasn’t changed very much. But of course, one thing that’s come to the fore, which I’m dead against, is this business of – under the heading of managed motorways. That’s the jargon, a managed motorway. And what you do there is you use the hard shoulder, constructed to a good standard, and you use it as a running lane in periods of – of congestion, heavy traffic congestion. The first one which was tried was in the Midlands, M42, I think it is, something like that, which many of us were against because they deliberately were getting the cheapest solution, not taking any more land, trying to squeeze it in within the existing landscape, strengthening the hard shoulder construction and then having this sophisticated management system based on controllers in offices at different places, who could, if there was an accident or something like that – could switch traffic because of the signing which was put in. But not the right answer.

Is that a recent development?

206 Harry Yeadon Page 207 C1379/82 Track 10

Oh yes, it came in about five, six years, up to, I think. Time flies, doesn’t it? It may be longer. But it – it’s now the thing that they rely on and it’s quite wrong.

[22:40]

Where were you actually working when you were working on the M6 section?

Er, do you mean –

Where?

Where? Oh, an office on the site. When I was resident engineer, you mean? Oh well, the – the contractor would have a requirement in his contract to build two suites of offices. By suites, I’m not talking anything fancy, wooden huts, in effect, one for the – the contractors and their organisation, because they’re continually involved with employee labour, paying the men, er, ordering materials, all that sort of thing, whereas the resident engineer is there to ensure that the – the contract is carried out in accordance with the terms of the contract. It’s as basic as that.

What sort of day to day duties did you have as resident engineer on the M6?

What sort of day to day jobs? Well, erm, I would be checking what was happening as far as compliance with the programme, because the contractor is required right at the outset to develop a formal programme, which everybody knows about. So he’s then under an obligation to keep to that programme, because it can affect all sorts of things, like statutory undertakers’ works, you know, that they’ve got to be fed in. Because the contractor doesn’t pay the statutory undertakers, like power cables and telephone cables and water pipes and so on. If it’s a statutory undertaker, we as the – on behalf of the client, would negotiate with the statutory undertakers and we would pay them direct for any works that they’re required to undertake to complete the job. But apart from that, the main thing is that the men on – your men on the site are doing their job properly. And they’ll be coming to you with all sorts of problems, which you – it’s very difficult to anticipate.

207 Harry Yeadon Page 208 C1379/82 Track 10

Do any stick in your mind from the M6?

Er, well, quite – quite a number on that concrete section, because, as I say, you can – you can get laboratory results coming in where the concrete hasn’t apparently gained its strength. Now you’ve got to do something about this. What you might do, because the cube may not have been made properly before it was crushed, is to put a core in, bore a core out, and then treat that to crushing, etc. That’s the sort of thing on – on concrete. And you’re continually getting requests from the contractor to the employment of subcontractors and also – whether they’re specialists or otherwise, and also they might come forward with some alternative materials to the ones which you’d specified, so you’ve got to satisfy yourself that they’re going to do the job. So it’s quite an onerous role, really. And as I think I may have mentioned, I’m sorry to go back to Preston Bypass, but there was evidence there, because you were working from the top of the marginal strip down, that you weren’t getting the full thickness – the proper thicknesses with the layer of materials, which was critical in a very thin construction like that. So a lot of things.

Were there any particular problems you remember on the M6 apart from the concrete?

Erm, well, you see, when you’re dealing with pre-stressing, pre-stressed concrete, on structures, you’re dealing with that as a problem, and also when I mentioned about putting cables through ducts and tensioning them and so on. You’ve got a duct with a hole going right through the thing and you’re having to grout that to seal it and stop corrosion taking place. I mean, this is a – a very critical operation and you can’t afford to be slapshot [ph] on that, because if – over the years, if you get corrosion taking place you’re in trouble.

Is the M6 the motorway with the farmer’s house in the middle of it?

No, that’s the M62, yeah.

208 Harry Yeadon Page 209 C1379/82 Track 10

Thank you [laughs].

In what was West Riding.

[28:00]

I was wondering as well, did you enjoy your job on the M6?

Yeah, oh yes, yes.

What did you like about it?

Well, you were achieving something and you were – I don’t mean personally. You’re not doing it using your – your hands and – etc, etc, but you are involved. And you’ve got a staff to control and so on, see that they are acting properly and that the – if you’ve got a good contractor, then it’s very satisfying, but if you’re continually at war with the contractor, I think that’s bad, because you – we’ve always got a last resort and that – if you’re not happy about something that has gone in in terms of, say, a bridge pier or something about that, where you were actually saying, ‘Take it down, start again,’ nobody gains from that. Contractor doesn’t gain, he’s losing money, and the job isn’t gaining because you’re losing time and so on. So you’ve – you’ve got to be on top of the job to see that that doesn’t happen. But I know there are various organisations which would not follow that principle. And I think probably, I don’t want to be unkind, but I think architects are probably far worse than that, because architects do not have, in my view in a lot of cases, proper supervision in that respect. They let the contractor go ahead and then go on the – perhaps only go to the site occasionally. You know, the clerks of works are left on their own and a clerk of works says, ‘I’m not happy about that bit,’ and no one says anything, they say, ‘Take it down and start again.’ Well, you know, that’s not good by any – by any standards. Far better to be on the – on the job and working together with the contractors rather than working against them, you respect them and they respect you.

How were your relationships with contractors on the M6?

209 Harry Yeadon Page 210 C1379/82 Track 10

Er, well, the contractor – if I might mention the – the one that – the firm which did the most for us, and not only on that but on other jobs, was a consortium, which – the Department and central government were encouraging, rather than have very big single contractors, to get firms to act on a consortium basis. And this was the McAlpine Fairclough consortium. That’s Alfred McAlpine. Nothing to do with the recent McAlpine, by the way, different family. But we had a very good relationship with them. And Fairclough were a local firm of masons based in – in Adlington, near Chorley. Leonard Fairclough, who was still about at the time some of these contracts were carried out, was a great character and he wouldn’t stand any nonsense.

What was he like to meet?

Oh, very nice man, really, but you used to hear all sorts of tales about him, you know.

Is there a chance any stick in your mind?

Well, the one I remember – sitting in a site office, scruffy site office, on the job – well, he went in – it was his firm who were involved. And there was a beer on the table and it was poured out, and he said, ‘The first one who burps gets the push’ [laughs]. No drinking on site, you see. Oh, great character. But quite different to the McAlpine people, but the – Fairclough did all the bridgeworks for the smaller bridges, not the big ones – well, they did on – yeah, and the, er, McAlpines did the – yes, Fairclough did the smaller bridges.

When you said he was very different from the McAlpine people, in what sort of way?

Well, the McAlpine people were – were essentially brought up, you know, some of the directors were, you know, graduates, chartered engineers, that sort of thing, you know, much bigger organisation nationally, whereas Leonard Fairclough was a hands on, you know, brought up in a family of masons initially, stone masons, but they – they moved forward. And yeah, they – and jolly good luck to them because they –

210 Harry Yeadon Page 211 C1379/82 Track 10 they had a lot going for them. But a different breed of chap running the firms, and you’d got to be prepared to cope with the fact they were different.

Are there any allowances that you have to make as resident engineer for that difference?

Well, not really, no. No, you still want – you still want your standards, but it’s a case of how you get them. But I don’t think you’d be very popular if you continually sat on your backside and didn’t come in at a weekend perhaps when you should have been there, and then move in and say, ‘Take it down, you know, and start again.’ They wouldn’t favour that very well, either of them.

[33:50]

What did you think the most important aspect of being resident engineer on the M6 was?

Erm … well, all I can say is quite simple, getting the standards right. I mean, you’ve got to be – you can’t be absolutely a hundred percent right in terms of specifications and so on. You’ve got to be fairly flexible in some respects, particularly if the contractor is bringing in alternative materials to those which you think have been – have been specified. You’re making judgements of that. You know, the contractor might say, you know, ‘Come and have a look at this.’ I mean, for example, coming back to the concrete again, it was important in the concrete, not only to get the cement right but to get the sand right. The aggregates, the coarse aggregates, that was easy because you’d got the – the crushing plants up in – in the Ribble Valley or north, but the sand is critical. There wasn’t any decent sand in Lancashire for concreting. A lot of the sand in the building industry generally was taken from the sea off Fleetwood, but not good sand, because you’re looking for a particular particle shape and so on. You don’t want sewn – sorry, blown – er, wind blown sand off a beach, too fine. You’re not getting that knitting together of – of the cement and coarse aggregate and the sand. They’re all critical in their own way. And so a lot of the sand had to come from – it came from North Wales, because McAlpine’s owned a big sand place in

211 Harry Yeadon Page 212 C1379/82 Track 10

North Wales, so it mainly came from there. And I can remember once going with my opposite number – because you had an opposite number as the agent. The contractor’s manager, if you like, running the job is known as the agents. So you’ve got an agent and a resident engineer going off with the agent to view the – look at the sand and look at the source. So you’re continually doing that. And with pre-cast units, which are cast off site, it’s to have some means of going and inspecting those before they come onto the site. I mean, for example – you won’t see it on there but seen on Preston Bypass, one of those footbridges which is like a banana, really. You’ve seen those. And the importance of that was that, because of the nature of the thing with the joint in the middle, you’ve got a – an abutment at each end, the – outside the limits of the carriageways, etc, obviously, and you get them coming together. The pre-cast units have got to come together and match in the middle, right over the centre of the carriageway, or the motorway itself. You couldn’t afford to have anything other than absolutely precise dimensions for those units, because if they were too – slightly too short and you hadn’t allowed enough for shrinkage, of course, the thing would settle. And if they settled, you weren’t giving the clearance above the carriageway. And if they were too short – sorry, too long, they’d be sticking up a bit, you know, things like that, which involve inspection off site. And the same applied to steelwork. And an interesting job on steelwork, by the way, with – I forget which job it was now, where the steelwork was being fabricated up in the North East, you know, steel area. And of course, it was the days of high inflation and there were clauses in the contract – there were certain items of work or materials whereby the contractor could claim an increase above the rates in the – in the contract because rates had gone up nationally. You know, the price of cement had gone up and you couldn’t expect to be paying the contractor which is outside his control, you know. And going up with one of the county auditors, up to the North East, to have a look at the way in which stuff was being fabricated, because – the important was – you could always get a certain amount of wastage, particularly if you’ve got a curved web to a girder, and you’re entitled to an extra cost, a variation of price clause, and you know, there’s a lot of big money in some of these items – a variation of price clause, which covered not only the amount of steel which went into the job but the amount of steel which had to be used in order to cut the shapes that you wanted for the job, you know. So it was quite a – a delicate balance. But we usually worked it out in the end.

212 Harry Yeadon Page 213 C1379/82 Track 10

[39:40]

When was the M6 actually completed, your section of it? Was it 1960 …?

1965.

And what happens to you after that?

After that, I was busy settling up the job and then I got – erm, I got drawn back into the department as such and I became very much a – a trouble shooter in terms of contracts which are going outside. Because I suppose by that time I was pretty experienced as to what went on on sites. And then the RCU, the road construction unit, started, and I told you what happened from then on. I became superintending engineer of construction, and – and that involved being involved indirectly with contracts, which I’d got no direct control over, being run by the Cheshire sub-unit. They had a sub-unit as well as the Lancashire sub-unit. And what the – our agents, who were Cumberland County Council, were doing up in Cumberland, and others as well. The consulting engineers had a role to play there, because if they wanted to change anything materially in their contract, then they had to come and get approval, because we were paying. I mean, I was in effect a civil servant, you know, subject to all the, you know, signing of various papers, etc.

Did you think of yourself as a civil servant?

Not really [laughs]. Well, I had to in a way, but I could call a spade a spade and – because I wasn’t in their employ. I was still getting paid by the county council but we were being reimbursed by the Department. So it was a – it was quite a nice job to be involved in, ‘cause you really had your fingers on the pulse for the whole of the – the North West. That’s why I got involved with writing that.

The motorway archive.

213 Harry Yeadon Page 214 C1379/82 Track 10

Yeah.

[42:00]

I think we should move onto the RCUs next time, because I think I’m going to have to run off before too long. But I was wondering if you could just spend the last couple of minutes talking about the trouble shooter role. Trouble shooting for whom?

Trouble shooting for the Engineer, thinking about Jim Drake in particular. I mean, for example, I can remember a particularly difficult problem with some statutory undertakers’ plant. And of course the big argument in those days was whether the movement and adjustment of statutory undertakers’ equipment and so on was – the time involved – that the contractor had to allow for the time if it was within the site or outside the site. It might seem a very fine point but it could be quite critical, because they could hold up a job if they – if they didn’t behave themselves properly. So you were continually involved with the statutory – who behaved very well, generally.

What’s a statutory undertaking, sorry?

A statutory undertaker are the people like the electricity, gas, water, the utilities, if you like, to use that phrase, which you were always running into. And of course the railways were statutory undertakings as well. You’ve got to be very, very careful there in terms of getting possessions when you were going to occupy part of the line, which was a very potentially dangerous operation.

What sort of problems could happen?

Well, I can remember there was a very serious accident – accident on – was it Stretford-Eccles, or one of those contracts down there, where – erm, what actually happened …? I can’t remember precisely but there was one very serious accident, which affected a railway – train, you know, because it was affected by works carried out by one of my contractors, which was tricky.

214 Harry Yeadon Page 215 C1379/82 Track 10

What do you have to do in that sort of problem to troubleshoot it?

Well, you’ve got to try and sort it out and decide – find out who was responsible and – and so on and put the blame where it was attached. But, er, didn’t get many of those. It was mainly trouble shooting in terms of interpretation of specification within your own contracts. Perhaps an argument going on on the site between a comparatively junior engineer and – and a manager on – a subagent on the contractor’s side, and saying, you know, come on, you know, knock their heads together.

Do you think you get anything from the experience of trouble shooting for Jim Drake?

Did I what?

Do you think you gained anything from the experience of trouble shooting for Jim Drake?

Oh, oh, I think so, very much so. And, you know, he didn’t like – obviously people don’t like unpalatable information, do they, so to go in and – and give him a bit of unpalatable information – and it was, ‘Oh bloody hell, you know, what have you come telling me that for?’ [Laughs] How are we?

I shall be making a move. Shall we call it quits for the day, Harry?

Yes, if you wish.

One final question actually, just to – one last question. Did you enjoy working as a trouble shooter?

Er, oh yes, yes. Amazing what you came across, mm, you know, things which you’d never really thought about happening. But, you know, because the contractor wanted to do something in a particular way and you were concerned – two things. One, that I mentioned, the safety aspect, and the other, was the finished work going to be compliant with the contract, the terms of the contract. That was the main thing. I

215 Harry Yeadon Page 216 C1379/82 Track 10 mean, you’d be in serious trouble with the engineer if you let something go through that eventually became a problem, certainly in terms of the operation of the – of the finished job, or otherwise, yeah.

[End of Track 10]

216 Harry Yeadon DRAFT Page 217 C1379/82 Track 11

Track 11

… was when the – Jim Drake went on secondment to the road construction unit, he said he was only going to set it up and get it going for two years, and he was heading for retirement shortly afterwards. And, er, he … that’s right. And another chap was appointed as director. Although I was up for interview for the job, I didn’t get it. I’m not – I wasn’t surprised in the circumstances. The civil servant who came in was probably a front runner. But this chap was – was from another county, very well known, prominent fellow, and he was appointed. And Jim Drake and he from the beginning didn’t see eye to eye, because Jim Drake had been the boss and then seconded and then went back to the county and this chap – of course, he thought that he was the boss of Jim Drake and Jim didn’t like this, you know. And if I got involved – I’m thinking of – what do you call them now, the Scotsman?

Female: Jim Ingram.

No, no, not Jim. Came down from Scotland, lived in digs. Erm …

Female: Doc McKay?

No, no. It’ll come back to me. He’s dead now anyway [laughs]. But no, there was friction there, no doubt about it, and I found myself involved between the two of them to some extent. You know, Jim Drake would say, ‘What did you go and tell him that for, you know?’ I said, ‘Well, you know, it’s fact.’ ‘Oh well, you know what he’s like, you know, make a damned nuisance of himself.’

[End of Track 11]

217 Harry Yeadon Page 218 C1379/82 Track 12

Track 12

One of the things you’ve mentioned a few times in previous sessions in passing has been the RCUs. What’s an RCU?

Well, the – certainly in the North West, the major motorway schemes, and other trunk roads which were not motorway standard, were carried out by the – the county councils, or the county council. I’m referring to Lancashire, of course. And Jim Drake was able to persuade the Department of – the county council to appoint staff in anticipation of the programme taking off, which was quite something. But the fact that all parties in the county council were a hundred percent behind trying to improve the road network within the county, as I mentioned, in relation to the road plan for Lancashire, 1949, there was no difficulty in that respect. But it was an important point because many other local authorities in that situation could very well have said, ‘Well, we’re not – we’re not going to take on the burden of appointing a lot of staff.’ And there was a gradual build up to quite a large staff over a period. And this was work carried out on the trunk road network, basically, erm, as agents of the Department of Transport. It had different names over the years, by the way, but basically the Department of Transport. And – and this meant, of course, the fact that the Department were the highway authority for the trunk road network and all the statutory procedures had to be carried out by the – the Department of Transport, and of course they were financing it as well. But it was pretty clear that we couldn’t carry on like this because it meant a lot of people tripping off down to London and – etc, etc. And the – the director general of – of highways at that time was a very realistic chap called William Harris, eventually became Sir William Harris, and he came up with a proposal to carry the – the programme forward on a partnership basis between the Department and the county council. And Jim Drake, of course, who was then very prominent anyway – and he was approached with a view to becoming the first director of a road construction unit based in Preston. He was a bit sceptical about the whole thing in a way, because he thought that his authority might be reduced, and he invited myself and one of the other senior members of the department, one – I remember it well, one Saturday afternoon, to go round to his house. And he produced the proposal as it was. And he was quite frank about it, ‘Do you think it’ll work?’ And we both –

218 Harry Yeadon Page 219 C1379/82 Track 12 both said, ‘Yes, we think we could make it work.’ So he said, ‘Okay, I’ll go along with it.’

[04:05]

And as I said, he became the director of the first one, with a headquarters in Preston. Some civil servants were allocated to the – this unit, but not many. The deputy director was a senior civil servant, an engineer, and I was appointed on secondment – Jim Drake was only seconded. They paid our salaries, of course, indirectly. I was appointed superintending engineer construction, because of my previous experience. And of course, the region – when we discussed this, the region that we had was the North West region, which extended from the Staffordshire border in the south, right up to the Scottish border in the – in the north. And we also had staff allocated to deal with all the paperwork concerned with the various orders, etc, and public inquiries. And, of course, we were responsible for the finance anyway. So we started off initially with only Jim Drake, his secretary, this deputy from the civil service, myself and one or two more, quite small, but it did build up because the programme was still booming. And off we went. And we made it work. And I think it was very successful. A lot of people were sceptical about it, particularly the consulting engineers, because they thought that they were – they might lose out in – on the other hand, they gained from this because certain projects, which they thought they would be carrying out, were still left with the – what was known as the sub-unit. There was a sub-unit in Lancashire and a sub-unit in Cheshire, but there was nothing else as regards to sub-units, because Staffordshire were only on the fringe. Cumberland County Council decided that they didn’t want to be involved. They wanted to carry on as agents, because they hadn’t got the resources or the – or the staffing concern. And the establishment of that unit and the sub-units meant that we were transferring staff purely and simply in name only, but they were carrying on exactly as they were before, working in the same offices, etc. And as I say, we made it work.

[07:26]

219 Harry Yeadon Page 220 C1379/82 Track 12

That lasted from 1967, when this first one was formed. The others throughout the country came a bit later, but there were – there were six – six regions. Scotland weren’t involved because they had their own position in any event. The Scottish office had powers, of course, which were considerable. So they did their own thing, really, but they were still indirectly financed by Department of Transport. Wales were involved, but, erm, in Wales, the only major routes were the – what was the A55 route through North Wales, out to – towards Holyhead, basically, and in the south was the main – main route, known as the Heads of the Valley Road, which runs right across towards – erm, I’m not quite sure. I suppose Swansea, something like that, anyway. But their position was very limited anyway. But they – they had staff who were employed indirectly. And that lasted, as you obviously were aware, to the early 1980s. We knew it wasn’t going to last indefinitely.

Why?

Why? Well, because the programme, to a large extent, had been carried out as far as one could see, although there are still motorway routes to be developed, in my view, but we realised that that couldn’t last. And the – the outstanding work would be carried out by consultants, as it was. And so we became involved as the RCU in not only controlling what the – the county councils were doing through their sub-units but also what the consultants were doing. I mean, for example, the M6 up through Westmoreland, which had been – they hadn’t started in Westmoreland, of course, only a small county, but very difficult terrain up through there, I mentioned Shap [ph] before. And a very difficult job, so consultants were appointed there. And in fact, the first job I was – I was given in the RCU, I may have mentioned this before, that they’d – it was designed and had gone out to tender. The tenders came in for that section, much higher than the estimate, and the financial commitment which the department had got was to go down to London and meet the consultants and the Department of Transport people and work out what – what we could do about it. And I was given authority to say, ‘Well look, it’s been very thoroughly gone into has this scheme, there’s no – there’s no other alternative, it’s got to go,’ because this was a main route to Scotland, of course. And eventually they agreed that the tender which had come in, the lowest tender, which we worked to generally, should go ahead, and

220 Harry Yeadon Page 221 C1379/82 Track 12 so would an involvement like that [coughs]. But this was – this was comparatively limited, the involvement of consultants, at that time, which was – which was a good thing because we were able to persuade the Department that we had got the expertise and the – and the staff to carry forward a programme in any event. And certain – for example, M62, Lancashire-Yorkshire motorway, again, a very difficult one, and the Department, or the minister of the day, when strong representations were made by Lancashire and the West Riding, as it was then – that we had the staff, we had the resources, we had the expertise. And the minister of the day, I think it was Ernest Marples, said, ‘Providing we work together jointly, two counties, then okay, we could go ahead and do it.’ And – and that was – that was quite a feather in our caps. So the M62 was a – was a key one in that sense.

[12:48]

And that could very well have gone in the wrong direction, which would have meant that a lot of people would have been fighting for their jobs. We never – we never made anyone compulsorily redundant with all these traumatic things which were happening, because we managed to keep things going with – with a programme.

What traumatic things?

Well, erm, the traumatic thing would be to suddenly say, ‘Right,’ in the middle of the design of job, ‘Look, we’re going to take it off you and pass it to somebody else,’ and that wouldn’t have been a good thing in all – in all respects.

Did that happen?

No, it didn’t. We managed to balance the thing out so that we were able to keep going until we eventually were disbanded. And at that – before that happened, Jim Drake only had, erm, oh, less than two years – well, about two years before he went back to the county, but he was due to retire anyway within a matter of, erm, a few years. His deputy took over as a temporary county surveyor and bridge master, and then eventually he retired. So it worked out very well.

221 Harry Yeadon Page 222 C1379/82 Track 12

So did the RCUs sort of give you the space to plan a steady flow of work then?

Well – well exactly. We had to – well, I won’t say fight for it, but we had to be able to show that we could do it. And as I say, it worked. It worked very well. They were bright enough to realise, the engineers, and particularly Bill Harris, that we could – we could do it, take it forward.

[15:00]

What sort of chap was William Harris?

He was – he was a Scot originally. He had been involved as a civil engineer in, er [creaking door] – is that annoying? Just push it to, Tom, please. Yeah – in naval work, dockyards, that sort of thing, but a very competent man, and we got on extremely well with him, you know, on a personal basis. If he came up here he’d stay overnight with Jim Drake and so on. And he was – he became president of the Institution of Civil Engineers, and he died a few years ago now, having retired. But we all got on very well, actually. He was a very realistic chap.

What was his actual position?

He was director general of highways. I think that was the official title, erm, which I suppose you would say, almost equivalent status to a permanent secretary, at that level. Yes.

[16:30]

How much contact – once the RCUs are up and running, how much contact do you actually have with the Ministry of Transport in London?

At that stage, not as much as they had as agents, because we had all the resources to prepare the orders, statutory orders, etc, and also to be involved in the public

222 Harry Yeadon Page 223 C1379/82 Track 12 inquiries, although the public inquiries were Department of Transport public inquiries. But we covered not only motorways, of course, but major trunk roads. In fact, I don’t – did I tell you the funny story about the public inquiry?

The one with Linda Chalker and Den Dover?

Well yes. I was thinking of another case. This was a trunk road along the – the Ribble Valley, and it was before the M62 got off the ground. It was really – I won’t say planned, but it was thought that the route between Lancashire and Yorkshire should be along the Ribble Valley and then down into the West Riding and so on, rather than the M62 as we know it now. And there was a public inquiry, only a compulsory purchase order, because the line was pretty well determined along the Ribble Valley, and we were fighting for the compulsory purchase order. And the public inquiry sat and the inspector was a retired town clerk from somewhere, quite a character, who wrote everything in copperplate handwriting. And we got towards the end of the – the formal inquiry and – quite a – not a lot of people there but quite a few. And he said, quite incorrectly, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I’d like to …’ It was getting mid afternoon. ‘I’d like to have a look around the site and the whole line of this proposal with Mr Yeadon,’ because I was there representing the Department of Transport. It didn’t have council or anything like that. It was very informal. And nobody objected because they didn’t know what the rules were. And I wasn’t in a position to object anyway ‘cause that’s what he wanted [laughs]. And we set off in my car and I said, ‘Well, would you like – would you like something to – some refreshment of some kind?’ He said, ‘I’d rather have a pint of beer.’ So I said, ‘Well, there won’t be any pubs open at this time.’ And we went backwards and forwards along the Ribble Valley, going from one side of the river to the other, because the other side was in – actually in Yorkshire. I said, ‘The licensing hours in Yorkshire might be quite different to Lancashire.’ And we did this until, er, the pubs opened in Lancashire, and we finished up outside the pub, waiting for it to open. And when he wrote his report, which was in beautifully written copperplate handwriting, as I said, he said, ‘I find all public inquiries enjoyable, but some are much more enjoyable than others’ [laughs]. We had more than one pint [laughs]. Anyway.

223 Harry Yeadon Page 224 C1379/82 Track 12

Did you find public inquiries as enjoyable?

I found them interesting. I didn’t participate an awful lot, but I did participate on a number of occasions as a – as a witness. But these were much more formal ones, where you had council representing the Department of Transport, of course, and they were presenting the case and calling people like myself as witnesses.

What sort of issues come up at public inquiries?

Erm, well, of course, you get – if it was into the line of the proposal, the line of the route, the line of the motorway, or trunk road, then of course it would be people saying, ‘Well, I don’t think that’s the right line,’ because, of course, it was probably affecting them, coming close to them. You’d always get that. And you’d also get the people that didn’t think motorways were a good idea anyway. You probably know the names of some of the well known characters that hit the headlines at that stage, who were – they were peculiarly motivated. It was rather interesting that we had a local objector, who was very keen – a very keen rambler. I’ve nothing against ramblers. And he objected; if you wanted to divert a field footpath, for example, he would object. And it was after I’d retired. And interesting, the chairman of the county council at that time was Louise Ellman, who you may have heard of, who was the chairman of the Select Committee at the House of Commons on transportation generally, and a very forthright character. A Lancastrian, of course. And I knew her quite well. Very Labour orientated, but she was realistic, a very – and she’s now very prominent. And, er, what was the point I was going to make about Louise Ellman?

[22:45]

Talking about environmental – well, protestors – not protestors, people with environmental concerns in inquiries.

Exactly. But she wasn’t in that ilk, of course. She was on our side. And in fact, when she became – did I tell you this when I – when she became chairman of the county council, it was changing in colour from the Conservative control to Labour

224 Harry Yeadon Page 225 C1379/82 Track 12 control, and I happened to bump into her on the corridor in County Hall the day after the election. And I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Congratulations.’ And she said, ‘Oh, thank you very much.’ She said, ‘Now we can get on with the M65,’ you know, just like that. Just what – what I wanted, because the – I think I may have mentioned this, the tendency was Labour control over in the East Lancashire area and Conservative control in the West and South Lancashire. That’s when the battlegrounds were.

Were they actually battlegrounds?

Oh no.

Did local politics ever cause any problems?

No, not local politics at all. We got on very well in that sense. They were very realistic were the local authorities, because they were minded like the county council in terms of – we’ve got to get this road network sorted.

[24:20]

To return to the RCUs for a bit –

Yes.

What did you actually see as the advantages of the RCU structure?

Erm, well, speed in operation, you know, getting things moving. They did – indirectly through the RCU, the Department appointed liaison engineers, a chap who was an engineer and was in close contact with us, and would come out with us on site and so on. So he was – he was the direct link with the Department of Transport, particularly on – on the financial side, if you wanted to have a major change, which quite often happened – well, I won’t say often happened, sometimes happened, where you were wanting to adopt a different approach to a problem and so on. And he would be the link to take it forward. Because we couldn’t – you see, the director of

225 Harry Yeadon Page 226 C1379/82 Track 12 the RCU, this is an important point, became the Engineer to all the contracts. And I think I did explain the role of the Engineer under the – what were known as the ICE conditions of contract, which is a very important role. There’s very few cases like this in the public sector anyway, where such authority is given to – to one person, who not only …

[26:15 pause]

Are we still on road construction units?

We are still on – you were talking about the importance of the director in this structure. But I was wondering, as superintending engineer construction, where do you sit in the pyramid, if you like?

Of the RCU?

Mm.

Well, the – the deputy was a civil servant, and – and then there was a tier below that, of which there were … I suppose there were only two of us, two superintending engineers. One involved in the design of what was going on in that field, plus, of course, the feed into the statutory orders, etc. And the other was myself, who was involved in the award of contracts and overall supervision of contracts, representing the Engineer, because the Engineer has, as I said, a considerable amount of authority in terms of – but he’s got to be answerable at the end of the day, particularly if things go wrong, not only in the physical sense but also in the financial sense. So I suppose you’d say I was second tier, really. The deputy tended to deal with the public inquiries as such, because he was also a direct link to the powers that be in the political sense. And of course, we were dealing with parliamentary questions. They used to be fed through – through to us, which was an interesting thing because – I got very cross on one occasion because it was one – one project, I can’t remember which one it was now, which was a bit sensitive, and a parliamentary question was asked on this and it was fed through – fed through to me. And I drafted a response and it went

226 Harry Yeadon Page 227 C1379/82 Track 12 to a woman, nothing against women in public sector, who was also seconded from the Department of Transport, at a slightly lower level. And – and she thought it was her duty to redraft what I’d written, and when I got it back it had altered the whole tone of the response. And I marched in and I played pop with her, even though we were on different sides of the fence. I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘I think I’m quite capable of writing reasonable English, and I was trying to get over a particular point. And the way that you’ve changed it now, you’ve altered the context.’ Unfortunately I found this quite a habit in other fields of the civil service. For example, the Institution of Civil Engineers, of which I was very much involved, as you know, and I forget what it was, it was something to do with water supply, I think. And we – the Institution always had a practice of appointing retired civil servants or military gentlemen in fairly senior capacities, and this was a – was a chap who had been a deputy permanent secretary, who was on the staff of the Institution at that time. And he altered something, which in a minute –he wrote minutes of meetings and – and the – the writing of minutes, as you probably know, is quite a skill in more ways than one, if you’re going to get over the – the proper message. And he drafted the minutes, which were quite contrary to what we had all discussed at a meeting. And I had to play hell with him – well, I won’t say play hell, say to him, ‘Look, you know, that is not a correct – that minute is not correct in terms of the way in which the matter was discussed.’ He wasn’t an engineer, you see. He was an administrator and he didn’t really understand the finer points of the engineering side. But, you know, that’s something you’ve got to live with. It wasn’t a general trend.

[31:37]

I mean, for example, Peter Baldwin, who I may have mentioned, who started off the motorway archive, was an excellent drafter of – of minutes, beautiful English and so on. By the way, he was a historian by profession [laughs].

We’re good for some things at least, hey? What’s the advantage – or sorry, what was the mark of a well written minute in a meeting in your field?

227 Harry Yeadon Page 228 C1379/82 Track 12

Erm, well, I think the minute writer ought to try to put himself in the position of people reading it. I think that that’s a key factor, in order that they get the right impression, or the correct impression, not distorted. It’s got to be clear. And I think that – that’s the thing. But Peter Baldwin was excellent.

[32:55]

Other than dealing with parliamentary questions, broadly speaking, what are your duties as superintending engineer construction?

Well, first of all, if the designs have been completed and the public inquiries have been dealt with, where necessary – of course, we didn’t always have public inquiries, as I mentioned to you. I mean, the early motorways in Lancashire were not the subject of public inquiries at all. It was only later when you got the – you might say, the professional objectors getting involved and when you got both sides appointing council. But you wouldn’t get council appointed by an individual objector, obviously, but if you’d got a group of people coming together and saying, you know, ‘We don’t like this,’ they might very well seek legal advice. But yeah.

So sort of dealing with the contractual administration –

Oh sorry, I ought to lead on. Yes, once the – the job’s been designed and – and goes out to tender, and I could be involved in the preparation of the contract documents, which of course were important, because you’ve got – you’ve got three elements in the – in a contract of that kind. You’ve got the conditions of contract, which of course are legal documents but very much engineering wise, and I got very much involved in this through the Institution later on. So you’ve got the conditions of contract. You’ve got the – the drawings, which illustrate what you’re trying to do. You’ve got a specification, and the specification is – develops over the years and – and changes and so on, and that’s the subject of – I got involved in that – I’ll come back to that in a moment. And you’ve got the bills of quantities. And the bills of quantities are – lists all the items of work, which the tenderers price – price the item, and you finish up with a sum of money which is the tender sum. So those are the main elements. So

228 Harry Yeadon Page 229 C1379/82 Track 12 you could be involved with all aspects in that – in the original drafting of the – of the contract. And then, of course, you – the overall responsibility was to ensure that the – the work is carried out in accordance with the conditions of contract, specifications, the drawings and so on, and – and also that the bill of quantities is – is being properly used. Did I mention the case in the – down on the M5 years ago, where there was a big – I won’t say a fiddle, but there was a case exposed, where a whistleblower, a quantity surveyor, I think, blew the whistle, because what was happening is that – where the contractor had got a claim – claim for extra costs and so on, and the – er, rather than formalise that on the basis of a variation order and so on on the contract, so the whole thing’s tied up, the staff concerned were actually paying the contractor by means of different quantities than were actually measured on site, you know, through a – throw in a few – a hundred cubic metres of concrete extra and that – that’s meeting your – your claim. We think you’ve got – they weren’t getting anything in their own pockets. It was a case of making it easier, you know, rather than going through the whole process of – of trying to establish whether the claim was justified, challenging it and so on, saying, ‘Okay, give them a few extra hundred cubic metres of concrete.’ And this was exposed by the whistleblower and became quite an important point. We – we never did it. It just wasn’t – wasn’t worth it.

[38:14]

I mean, if you’ve got a claim – and of course the – did I mention about Clause 12? Did I mention that?

Clause 12.

Clause 12, this was a standard clause in the conditions of contract, which – I found fairly early on when I became involved, that contractors – some contractors thought that we didn’t like Clause 12. And Clause 12, what it – what it said was that if the contractor comes across some unforeseen condition, then he can serve Clause 12 on the Engineer and say, ‘Look, there’s something here which is unforeseen and I think that we’ve got to sort this out.’ And if you’re working well with the contractor, you sort it out by deciding how to deal with the problem, jointly, and you do this quickly,

229 Harry Yeadon Page 230 C1379/82 Track 12 because if you let it drift it becomes a bit of a sore in the flesh, if you like, right through the whole contract. And – and I was all for Clause 12 because what the Engineer can do, he can say, ‘Okay, I think you’ve got a case. It is unforeseen. We’ll sort it out with you. We’ll arrive at some solution and you’ll get paid properly for what’s involved if you’re involved in extra work.’ On the other hand, the Engineer could say, ‘Rubbish, that’s not an unforeseen condition. You should have been aware of that from the information which was given to you in terms of site investigation, etc, etc.’ And you’ve got to be very positive about this. And as I say, I was a bit surprised when a major contractor said, ‘Oh, I didn’t know you liked Clause 12.’ I said, ‘Course I do.’ And I preached this all the time I was involved, because people thought that by a contractor serving Clause 12, that he was trying to get at you. Not at all, he was putting his cards on the table and once you’d – you’d said, ‘No, it’s not a – an unforeseen condition …’ Of course, you were still subject, at the end of the day, to a challenge by the contractor, who might take you to arbitration at the end of the day, but you can avoid a lot of that nonsense of arbitration and so on by being absolutely positive what you were doing.

[40:55]

One of the things that I guess sort of feeds into this question for me as well is – you discussed sort of the conditions of contract, the drawings, the specifications, the bills of quantities documents, but are you doing all this work yourself or is there a team of people around to help you with different bits of it?

Oh, I’d have – I’d be working with the people who’d been involved in the – in the design primarily, all the people involved in – in drafting the contract in detail. Oh no, I wouldn’t be doing it all myself. No way, you couldn’t cope.

How big is the end document at the end?

The end document? Do you mean …?

Containing …

230 Harry Yeadon Page 231 C1379/82 Track 12

Oh, you’d finish up with a massive document, of course, you know, on a major contract. I mean, the specification could be quite a – I don’t think I’ve got a copy handy, but the, you know, quite a massive document, because it’s covering every condition that you might experience. The drawings, of course, can be extensive, and the bills of quantities. And this is important because, without being too critical of the architectural profession, they were not, in my knowledge of the subject – don’t quote me on this [laughs].

Well, the tape’s running.

But of going out to contract with a contract which was not properly tied up and – in all respects, as best you could. And Jim Drake was very positive about this, ‘We’re not going out to tender until you’ve got everything right and everybody knows precisely what’s required.’ It never – never is precisely in terms of literally what happens, but you’ve got it – at that stage you’ve got it right. An architect would go out with some sort of woolly – woolly contract and be negotiating prices and so on as you went along. Well, I mean, the hostage to fortune. No way [laughs].

Who else is in the – you mentioned working as part of a team with other people in drafting the specification document. What sort of other people would be part of that?

Well, they’d be – they’d be engineers and – er, who’d had experience. We didn’t in the early days, we did later on, we didn’t take onboard quantity surveyors to any extent. The approach was that the engineers, because of the involvement of the quantity side, should be actively involved in that and – and not leaving it to a quantity surveyor. And we – we worked on that basis. So the engineers, who’d been involved in the design, involved in the supervision, should deal with the quantities themselves, because they were in a better position, if they’d been on the site following what was happening and so on, to know what was going on, rather than a quantity surveyor who would only be picking up information that was handed to him. So, you know, that was a very important part of it.

231 Harry Yeadon Page 232 C1379/82 Track 12

Do you have any sort of, I guess, planning tools, specification tools, to help you actually project manage this as it’s going along?

Not really, I don’t think, no.

[44:50]

I’ve got this mention of the thirty nine steps somewhere. I wasn’t quite –

Ah, the thirty nine steps – I don’t think I used that phrase, did I?

You used it in your book.

You’ve got it.

You used it in your book [laughs].

The thirty nine steps – I forget who came up with the jargon. But it was the steps in the statutory procedures. That was – those were the steps. I – they may have embraced the – the actual construction, but they were primarily associated with that. And there were various moves, of course, over the years, trying to streamline things and avoid all the – the detail in terms of statutory orders and – etc, etc. There’s not a lot you can do about it at the end of the day. But it was a bit of a – bit of jargon. It wasn’t used in practical – practical sense. It was an observation by people – I forget who it was. It was one of the county surveyors somewhere that used this.

What actually was it, just a ...? What actually were the thirty nine steps, or –

Well, you’d say – well, if you took it literally, as I think I may have mentioned, you’ve got three main elements in the statutory procedures. You’ve got the line itself. You’ve got the side road orders. And by the side roads, that’s the side roads which are affected by – going to be affected by the ultimate construction. And you’ve got the – the land acquisition side, for which you need a compulsory purchase order.

232 Harry Yeadon Page 233 C1379/82 Track 12

That’s – that’s an interesting point, because we – because of the expertise that our land surveyors had, they were quite often able to get objections removed by negotiation and so on with the landowner, particularly in relation to what I’d describe as accommodation works. Accommodation works are those works that have got to be carried out in order to make sure that the landowner and tenants and so on are not adversely affected. You know, for example, simple things like putting water troughs in a field, you know [laughs], for the cattle, etc, or an access road, minor access road into a farm, you know, things like that. So you got the three links. Now I suppose, strictly speaking – once you’ve published the line and you get objections, you have a public inquiry on the line and eventually the line may be the subject of a public inquiry and eventually the minister decides that you’re right or you’re wrong. And you shouldn’t move onto the side road order until you’ve got the line sorted. And when you’ve got the side road, you shouldn’t be moving onto the compulsory purchase order until you know. So those are the sort of thing which would come into the thirty-nine steps in – more or less. Yeah. Does that answer …? Yeah.

One of the other questions I had as well was about, I guess, computerisation.

Oh yes.

Do you start using computers in your department?

Oh yes. Personally, I wasn’t, but the – the designers got involved with using computers. This is an interesting situation because – in the county council there was a massive computer, which was primarily involved in paying staff right across the board. And this was controlled by the county treasurer, who happens to live down the road. He just had a car crash, but that’s by the way, a contemporary of mine. And – and the treasurers liked to keep control of this. And what was very annoying was that we didn’t have any individual computers in the department at all and we were about – well, I suppose you might say half a mile, three quarters of a mile, from County Hall, where our offices were in Preston. And I found the bridge engineers trooping down to – to County Hall regularly. ‘What’s going on?’ ‘Oh, we want to use the computer.’ And the only computer was the big one that the treasurer held. And the treasurer

233 Harry Yeadon Page 234 C1379/82 Track 12 might say, ‘Oh no, I can’t – I can’t spare the time to let your people have access to this,’ which is a very negative approach. We were all, you know, working for the same organisation. And it was only later that we got computers coming in, and essentially concerned with – with calculations, you know, design, structural design, etc, and indeed, on preparation of bills of quantities, etc. So it did develop but not in the early stages at all. And so it just starts with the county treasurer. You know, he’s quite a good friend of mine, really. But going down and saying, ‘Look, you know, you’re holding – you’re holding the job up, you know. Stop it. Get your people off – off my back, or my staff back, you know.’ It worked out well – alright in the end, but it was annoying, the early stages.

[51:05]

Talking about the RCUs again, I was wondering, was there much competition with RCUs in other regions?

No, not really at all, because it was still subject to – for example, the specification was pretty well standard. And, as I said, I got involved in that. It was when Jim Drake was – was the president of the County Surveyor Society, which was quite an important body, and they had a – the Department of Transport had a committee looking at – reviewing the specification. I wouldn’t say regularly but from time to time. And at one stage – and he was – he was a member of this committee of the Department of Transport, looking at this review. And he got me involved in this in detail. And I used to go to the meetings of this – this committee, advising him on – on the pros and cons of changing a particular item in the specification, which the Department were trying to perhaps push through. Or the Department of – or the transport road research laboratory, of course, who were quite prominent, it was known as the – that’s the title now, transport road research laboratory.

[52:45]

Oh, I’m coming – I’m coming back to Louise Ellman now, ‘cause it was after I retired and it was at the time when public transport had become a role of the county council,

234 Harry Yeadon Page 235 C1379/82 Track 12 in the sense that we actually controlled the finance coming through the system to ensure that it was being properly used, from central government. And as I say, I’d just retired. And there was a meeting held in – in Preston and I was invited to go and say what was happening as far as what we were doing with public transport. Weren’t involved in detail. We weren’t running it or controlling it. It was purely and simply financial spread, if you like. And I said my party piece. Louise Ellman was the chair. And coming out of this hall – it was very well attended because you’d got all the local authorities there, who had an involvement. And I happened to bump into this chap, who’d been a nigger in the woodpile as an objector, and he turned to me and he said, ‘Ah, Mr Yeadon, I see you’ve joined the angels’ [laughs] because he was against motorways completely, but he thought that I – because I was talking about them in transport, you know, I’d moved my position, which was quite wrong. And in fact, again political, when the Labour Party took over, the county council, there was a chap called Jim Mason, who became chairman of the – a development corporation in Warrington, down there, eventually. And Louise Ellman was his deputy. And I got a call, would I be prepared to go and have a chat with – with them and – so I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll talk to anybody.’ So I went down to meet just the two of them, the two leading lights. And they said, ‘Well, we know your background, Mr Yeadon, that you’ve been involved in – in highways, in roads, motorways and so on, but of course there’s this new function, public transport. If you will back public transport’- which was of course a Labour Party move. ‘If you’ll back public transport, we’ll back you on roads. How’s that? Simple as that.’ I said, ‘Yes, fair enough. That’s my job’ [laughs]. It worked very well.

I’ll pause you for one second while I just –

[End of Track 12]

235 Harry Yeadon Page 236 C1379/82 Track 13

Track 13

When abouts did public transport actually become more of an issue in your job?

Oh, it was in 1974, of course, local government reorganisation, that gave the county council this particular role. And I had – we appointed a few members of staff who had public transport experience and who were very good, I must say. And it was a case of whether a particular bus route, you know, if it was losing a lot of money, whether you could still afford to run it, you know, with major subsidy. And this was what it was all about. So these chaps were looking at – at the usage of – of buses. Rail, virtually no involvement with rail apart from the fact that we were trying to get, even in those days, Preston Station improved [laughs], but we never succeeded. But anyway. But it became a – as far as I know it’s probably still going on, ‘cause the – I think the legislation is still there. There’s a lot of money going into it, of course, and understandably, yeah.

[01:35]

You mentioned the road research laboratory a few minutes ago.

Oh yes, yeah.

What sort of interaction did you actually have in it over the course of your career?

Erm, not a – not a lot, but of course they would run courses and – and so on. In fact, I was only talking about this the other day, because my opposite number in Cheshire, a chap called Ben Knight [ph], who died early this year – the first time I met him was at the road research laboratory, because he was then working in – on M1 down in Hertfordshire. And they arranged a course for resident engineers. I think I described, didn’t I, what a resident engineer was? And he was resident engineer on a section of M1, down there, being carried out by the county council, before he moved up to Cheshire. And, er, so there were resident engineers from all over the place. And it was several days’ course. And we all went out for a meal one night, all of us, and the

236 Harry Yeadon Page 237 C1379/82 Track 13 chap who was a leading light there, a real boffin – and with no criticism, Tom, but he had a beard [laughs]. And you haven’t really got one yet, have you? Are you going to grow one?

I believe I had one last time I came here.

Did you? Oh right. I’d forgotten [both laugh]. Anyway, this chap – I’ve forgotten his name now. He was a real boffin, and a very bright chap. And we’d had quite a controversial meeting when we were challenging some of these things which – which he said. And we were having this meal and there was one fellow – we were all comparatively young men in those days, so we all had a reasonable head of hair, apart from one chap, who was as bald as a coot. And somebody said – talking about what had happened during the day, said, ‘I’m always a bit suspicious about men with beards.’ And this chap with no hair looked round the assembled multitude and said, ‘I feel the same about men with hair’ [laughs]. Anyway, that’s by the way. But no, they were very good. But the big – the big controversy – did I talk about this in relation to concrete pavements, concrete loads, expansion joists –

I think we talked about – yes, we talked about this last time.

Well, he was the fellow that wouldn’t budge on this at all. And I think we lost a lot there. I think he was – we were anxious to follow the American trend. As I told you, we went off on a trip there. Anyway.

What sort of courses did you go to at the road research laboratory?

Well, you could go on a course on – erm, I mean, they weren’t courses in the truly formal sense. They were quite informal, on, er, earthworks, particularly, how you can control earthworks. Because I think I may have mentioned that the difficulty of being able to say whether some material being taken out of a cutting was going to be okay to put into an embankment because of the nature of it, you know, sandy clays, that sort of thing. And if you got a lot of rain, you know, it became just a pudding, very difficult to control. And so it was a question of judgement, really, before you could

237 Harry Yeadon Page 238 C1379/82 Track 13 get a test result, because you couldn’t get a test result with a whole lot of plant standing there, because nobody gains from that. So you’ve got to be prepared to make decisions. And so it’s important to get as much background as you could. Soil mechanics; that was the terminology. And the universities, local universities, used to have them. I remember going on an evening course, I think it was at Salford actually, on soil mechanics. It’s a highly specialised business, of course, and particularly if you find yourself perhaps needing piling for a structure, a bridge or something like that, as distinct from purely and simply whether material is suitable or unsuitable.

[07:03]

You mentioned that the RCUs had, I guess, a limited lifespan.

Yes.

From your point of view, how did that start to come to an end?

[Clears throat] Well, the Conservative government that came into power about that time – I suppose it must have been the, erm, early ‘80s or late ‘70s, something like that.

’79?

Was it? Something like that.

’79, Thatcher.

Yeah, when Thatcher appointed, I’ve forgotten his name, but the head man of Marks & Spencer and he was going to sort it out, much to our concern. Very much on the privatisation business. And although they said there would be a full consultation and so on – I remember going down to meetings when Kenneth Clarke was the Parliamentary Secretary, Department of Transport, not the Secretary of State, but, you know, he was the leading light in this, and arguing across the table about the – the

238 Harry Yeadon Page 239 C1379/82 Track 13 timescale of it. This was our concern, concern for the staff more than anything else. We knew it was going to happen, and we knew that if it wasn’t done well, it was going to – there was going to be major disruption in terms of developing the programme, and everybody was going to lose out. So we had to argue our case for doing it on a properly organised basis. And by and large we succeeded, with meetings across the table with ministers, at that level. The – it worked very well. I think – I think we only had one chap who was declared compulsorily redundant, and he was a chap that saw the – the way things were going and emigrated to Canada. Got a job in Canada and then claimed compensation because the thing [laughs] – or virtually alleging that he was more or less forced into compulsory redundancy, which wasn’t a case, but anyway.

Were you in those meetings yourself?

Oh yes. In fact, there was one I – what were the circumstances there? It was – the staff got a bit concerned about one aspect of it and I found myself attending a meeting of – what’s the name of the organisation, ACAP or something?

ACAS?

ACAS, yes. And going to a meeting and travelling down in the train with chaps that were objecting to what was going on, and I was sort of more or less there, I won’t say supporting what was going on, but trying to be realistic about it. And it worked out very well in the end because, as I say, nobody suffered unduly.

What was the atmosphere like in those meetings with ministers over the demise of the RCUs?

It was quite good. It was a case of saying, ‘Well, this is a – you knew it was going to happen. This is a political decision.’ But what we did achieve – we had certain major contracts which were ongoing at the time. I mean, for example, M61 was on the go, and this penetrated right into the Manchester area. Did I tell you about this, when Rogers was the Secretary of State for Transport? And he came to – what we agreed

239 Harry Yeadon Page 240 C1379/82 Track 13 with the Department of Transport – look, this is ridiculous, trying to change things in the middle of a major contract, you know. You ought to let us continue and complete it. And they – they did agree. So we had Lancashire staff working in – in Greater Manchester, ‘cause Greater Manchester they had no background. They didn’t have an RCU sub-unit or anything like that, largely – well, they just didn’t have the resources because, you know, they were essentially cities like Manchester and – and Salford and major county boroughs like Rochdale and Oldham and so on, so, you know, they were all disparate in many respects. And Rogers came to open this piece of motorway, and we were actually in Greater Manchester when he opened it. Did I tell you about this before? And in his speech he was waxing eloquent about what a wonderful place Lancashire was, they’d started the industrial revolution, etc, etc. And I had my chairman next to me and I nudged him and I said, ‘I don’t think he knows where he is,’ whispered. Anyway, we all went off to lunch at Bury Town Hall and somebody must have spoken to him – one of his civil servants must have spoken to him, and when he opened up again at the – the end of the lunch, he said, ‘Well, I’ve been – I’ve been told that I shouldn’t have said too much about Lancashire. I take nothing back at all,’ ‘cause he came from this part of the world, anyway. And waxed eloquent again about Lancashire, but it was a politician’s way out of it, you know, when – because the chairman of the Greater Manchester County Council was there [laughs]. We had all these [clears throat] Lancashire chaps working on their patch. It didn’t make any difference in terms of practicalities. But, you know, there was that sort of situation, where you couldn’t just suddenly say, ‘Chop, get on your way, get on your bike and find another job somewhere.’

[13:55]

How did you know the RCUs were going to stop?

Well, that was right at the beginning when it started. It was – it was made clear that it would – it would have a limited life. I can’t remember precisely what was said at the time in terms of time, how long it was going to be, how many years it was going to be there. But, you know, we knew it was going to fold.

240 Harry Yeadon Page 241 C1379/82 Track 13

Why the limited life?

Well, I think the – there was realisation perhaps that the motorway programme and trunk road programme might come to an end. I think there was realisation of that. Nobody was prepared to commit themselves indefinitely. I mean, after all, it lasted from 1967 till early – early ‘80s, so that was thirteen, fourteen years, so it had a – a good life. And the chaps enjoyed it. I mean, you know, they thought it was great, you know, because they had – they had authority and the – and they were doing things, and it was all part of what was always said. We – it was the – er, what’s the term? I can’t remember now … anyway, it doesn’t matter. You know, for a civil engineer, it was great. It really was.

[15:35]

So looking over, I guess, the whole period of motorway construction you were involved in, what difference do you think the motorways actually made to Lancashire?

Oh, a tremendous difference. Oh yes, in terms of – erm, well, as I said in relation to the road plan, the road network as it was was based on the – where the towns and cities were in relation to the rivers flowing out into the Irish Sea. That’s how it had developed over the years. And the – of course, it had to – the road network had to accommodate various different types of traffic. There was traffic going through the county on its way, for example, to Scotland. It had to accommodate movement between towns and movement within towns. And that was a balancing act, really, where were you going to spend the – the resources. I mean, we still had quite a lot of set paved rows, you know, at that time, in the, which, of course, were – to some extent had been covered up, set paved rows with tram tracks. You know, so what we did, of course, was to overlay the hot roll asphalt surfacing [ph] over the years. I mean, there are a few set paved streets in places like Preston and some of the Lancashire towns.

What’s set paved, sorry?

241 Harry Yeadon Page 242 C1379/82 Track 13

Oh sorry. A set was a block of stone, you know, about probably – not more than about six inches – six by six and – deep. And they were laid – when they were done well, they were very good, but you laid a concrete base for them and then laid the set on the concrete base and then sealed the joints with hot tar, as it was then. We ceased to manufacture tar later, but it really was the thing. And I was born and brought up on a set paved road, but – there were a lot of them about.

How many motorways had the North West RCU actually built over your time there?

Ooh, well, I suppose it’s all in the – in the book. Erm, yes, I … well, I could virtually go through them. The M6 was the priority, with different contracts at different stages. And I think we gave – we went through the background of that. And then there was the – I’m not saying these are necessarily in the – in the correct chronological order, but the M61 was a – this was Preston-Manchester. Then there was the – the M62, of course. Meanwhile, the Manchester Outer Ring Road was getting underway with Barton High Level Bridge, which I think I may have mentioned to you, which ultimately became part of the M60. Erm, and then in Cheshire, of course, they were very actively involved in the M56, which went from West – well, Chester, if you like, right through, serving the airport at Manchester and connecting into the M62. Erm, so that was an important one. And the M57, now this was an interesting one because – this is the outer ring road of Liverpool, and this was a county motorway, as distinct from – and there were such things, as distinct from a trunk road motorway. In a county motorway, we ourselves dealt with the orders and we were financing it. We were getting seventy five percent grant from Department of Transport, and ultimately it became part of the trunk road network. And this was an outer ring road of Liverpool. And I may have mentioned to you, although we had proposals eventually to put M62 right through into the centre of Liverpool, particularly with regards to the port, and – but Liverpool City Council, they didn’t like it because it involved a lot of property demolition getting through, and so it never happened. And the extent to whether they feel they lost out, I don’t know.

[20:50]

242 Harry Yeadon Page 243 C1379/82 Track 13

But the proposal for Liverpool to get involved in the – in the motorway network was to use the Runcorn-Widnes crossing of the ship canal, getting into Cheshire and then down from there into Staffordshire, but that never happened. And that’s why we – I mean, one of the first jobs I got involved in, I don’t know whether I mentioned this before, was – the East Lancashire road, the A580, had been a – very much an unemployment relief scheme, way back in the – in the ‘30s, opened by King George V, and the land had been acquired for a dual three lane road, not motorway, but all the access points were still preserved. And one of the first jobs I got in the county, major jobs, before I got involved with the motorways as such, was to improve that – that route in all respects. And then, of course, it was realised – I mean, again, this was Jim Drake on one of his trips to the States, said, ‘Look, this is – this is a nonsense, to go too far.’ We did – we did a lot of work on the A580, but we didn’t convert it into a motorway because the – the ends would not have been convenient in terms of how you finished it off, getting into either Manchester or Liverpool, and that’s why we went for M62, across South Lancashire, which I may have mentioned the peat problem, did I, across Chat Moss and so on, which it was thought was not a practical proposition, but we made it work. And what other schemes were there? Those were the main – main ones, but all were developed in different sections.

Why the need for all these motorways in the North West at all, do you think?

Well, it was all part of the – the road plan, as I said, they were – they all had a – a role to play in terms of a decent network. You know, for people, drivers or operators, to be able to get onto a motorway, which would lead them into the national network. That was as much as anything. And we were all [inaud].

Do you think the motorways had some sort of social or economic relevance in the North West in particular?

Erm, not really, apart from the fact that other countries were – were doing it. I mean, Italy were the first, of course, as you know, and Germany, and the States. And – and, you know, almost we were following their lead, to some extent. You know, they always said about the German autobahn, the – although the Germans, Hitler and co

243 Harry Yeadon Page 244 C1379/82 Track 13 always said, well, this was opening up the communications between individual conurbations from an economic point of view. But of course it was also said at the time, and I think this was proved to some extent, they were also built for the use of – for military use, to be able to get around the – the country and the – and Europe and so on. So I mean, we weren’t minded in that respect at all. And I thin you may have read about the trip to Germany that – did I mention that before? Oh, in 1936, I think it was, 1936, when Jim Drake was actually borough surveyor and engineer at Blackpool. And – and he was all for – he went on this trip, which was about 200 people invited by the Germans to go over there and see what they were doing, and came back and he was all enthusiastic, he was going to have a motorway around Blackpool. Never happened, of course. But, well, he got the M55. Oh, I should have mentioned the M55, which of course came later. The – I think I’ve pretty well covered the thing and, you know, I’ve got all the brochures if you’re – if you’re interested.

[25:55]

Did you own role change over time as well? The last time we talked about this, you were superintending engineer construction.

Ah yes. Well, after I’d been in the RCU headquarters – let’s see, I joined in early April 1967, when it all started, and I was appointed second deputy county surveyor and bridge master in 1969. That would be the summer. So I had virtually two years in the RCU and then I went back as – as I say, second deputy county surveyor. The first deputy county surveyor was a chap called Jim Ingram [ph], a Scotsman, a good chap, died some years ago. And he – he was due for – for retirement, virtually. And so it was on the cards that if – if I kept my nose clean, I might at least finish up as – as the deputy and, with a bit of luck, might get the county surveyor and bridge master’s job, which fortunately turned out alright. But I had to work damned hard for it [laughs].

Was it hard work?

244 Harry Yeadon Page 245 C1379/82 Track 13

Hard work? Oh god, yes. While Jim Drake was there, ah, it was – anytime. And the fact that – he lived in St Anne’s, just along there, you’d bet your bottom dollar, you know, you – ‘Oh, I’ll pop round,’ you know, and – about something or other. So, you know, the thing I remember particularly on that – this was a trunk road scheme along the Ribble Valley, and – Lord Clitheroe might not mean anything to you, but – a big estate called – a place called Downham, just outside Clitheroe. And we were trying to get him – because he – he was a minister at the time, and – to agree to the line of this route, going through part of his land. I mean, he wasn’t being difficult at all. But it was arranged that Jim Drake would go over to see him at Downham Hall. And he said, ‘Oh, you’d better come on this.’ And it was on a – going to be on a Sunday morning. And he said, ‘Right, I’ll pick you up at home.’ It was only, you know, a mile or so away. And unfortunately I had not dealt with my clock in terms of an hour [laughs]. The bell rang and there was – and I was only partly dressed, and Jim Drake standing on the doorstep, ‘Aren’t you ready?’ [Laughs] I said, ‘Why, what time is it?’ [Laughs] Oh, played hell of course, you know. He was always playing hell. But anyway, we set off and we went over to see Lord Clitheroe and – who was very affable, I must say, and his wife as well. It worked out alright in the end. There you are.

[29:10]

County surveyor and bridge master, that sounds quite a – quite an important role. What does that actually involve?

Well, going way back – and I’m afraid I can’t quote dates specifically, but I could find them out. There were two separate appointments. There was a county surveyor and there was a county bridge master, and eventually they were combined. County surveyor essentially responsible for roads, as such, and obviously the bridge master responsible for the bridges. So it became – there weren’t many about. There were a few counties that had that appointment. And of course, it’s gone now. It went in – my successor, a chap called Mike Callery, and we went to his eightieth birthday party only a few weeks ago, and, er, he lost it then. And they decided to appoint these titles of director of this or director of that, you know, and then eventually he retired. A

245 Harry Yeadon Page 246 C1379/82 Track 13 chap called Graham Harding took over, and then he retired. And eventually, in – when will it be? Not all that long ago, and – of course, the engineering side of the department had virtually gone. All the big jobs had gone to consultants and even some of the little ones, and there were very few engineers left. And they were absorbed in – of course, there was a big thing about planning, you see. The planning officer was quite separate from the county surveyor and bridge master, and there were always potential conflicts between the planners, who wanted to put things in different places to what we – we wanted to or had to do, because we – we were faced with the engineering problems of getting – getting through. And of course they’d have, some of them, rather fancy ideas. In fact, there’s an – there’s an assistant county planning – the county planning officer was a good friend of mine eventually, and I saw him quite recently, and he was alright. But he had an assistant county planning officer, who was an absolute damned nuisance, a chap called Kevin. And the chaps used to come and say, ‘Can’t you get Kevin off my back?’ You know, an absolute nuisance [laughs].

What sort of issues do you disagree over?

Oh, he’d – he’d want to, er, do all sorts of things, alter the line of something, you know, and saying, ‘Oh look, this isn’t the right place, you know. It’s not – it’s not environmentally suitable,’ and so on. I said, ‘Look, you’ve got to be realistic. You’ve got to get through these areas, you know.’ That was the sort of thing. And not – it was nothing to do with the detail often. It was the broader issues. And no, it was – it was a bit of a nuisance. But by and large it worked out. You know, and I’d go and see the county planning officer and say, ‘For goodness sake, get Kevin off our backs,’ you know.

What are actually the stated duties of the county surveyor and bridge master?

What, sorry?

What are the duties of a county surveyor and bridge master?

246 Harry Yeadon Page 247 C1379/82 Track 13

The duties? Well, the duties are to – erm, the committee – the main committee, the county council, certainly latterly was the committee for highways and transportation. Before that it had been highways and bridges. But of course when – when public transport came into the reckoning, it had to change into transportation. I think it’s a bit of a misnomer in many respects because a highway is part of transportation anyway, you know, so do you need two – two words? Anyway, so your main duty, of course, is to – to service that committee, and there was all sorts of things that would crop up, you know, everything from a section of motorway to a pedestrian crossing in a contentious place, you know, the sublime to the ridiculous. And so that is your prime duty, with a committee meeting every month. So you finish up with a committee report, which would be, you know, that thick – no, not – I’m exaggerating a bit, with all the – so the committee reports were drafted by the chaps who were directly involved in the – in the issue concerned, not always. I’d draft some myself, but you’d leave it to the chaps who knew the detail. And so they’d draft something and I’d vet it and that would only be a few days before the – the thing was sent out to the members. So they’d come to a – to a meeting and they would always have a caucus meeting beforehand, and the – the two groups would meet prior to the formal meeting of the committee. For example, the Labour group would meet in one room and the Conservative group would meet in another, and the odds and sods might meet somewhere else, I don’t know. And – but you would have had a chance of advising the chairman, whichever side he was on, about some of the contentious issues that were likely to come up. And then the committee would – would start and they would be working on the formal report, which had been produced. And in – I mean, one – this chap, Donald Dean, who was the civil servant of the – I got on very well with, who was in the RCU, and he always used to pull my leg and say, ‘Ah, this business of local government and county councils and committees, it’s all a rubber stamping job. You’re doing everything and preparing all the reports.’ I said, ‘Rubbish, you only produce for a committee what you know is likely to be acceptable. You don’t go putting contentious in – contentious items. You’ve got your ear to the ground and you know what is likely to be acceptable.’ And occasionally you got some odd things happening.

[36:25]

247 Harry Yeadon Page 248 C1379/82 Track 13

I mean, for example [laughs], it was on the road from St Anne’s through to – through to Blackpool, and the – one of the leading Conservatives – it was a question of a speed limit along there, you know, whether it should be a thirty or what have you. And also there was a contentious one in another part – in the eastern part of the county, the other side of Preston, another contentious speed limit. And the two sides got the two mixed up and – and before I’d tried – I was able to correct this, they agreed to the counter to what had been decided [laughs], and the Labour chap was delighted. He’d got what he wanted and the Conservatives lost out, but it was his own fault because he hadn’t done his homework problem. Well, I had the chairman I had at the time was a nice little fellow. I can’t recall – anyway, it doesn’t matter about his name, but – and he wasn’t very good at his homework. But I used to meet him perhaps the day before and go through the – the report and say, ‘Look, you know, there’s likely to be an issue on this or that,’ and so on, to brief him. And there were a lot of – a lot of the times he never – he’d never properly read the report anyway [laughs]. And that’s why Donald Dean used to say, ‘Oh, it’s a rubber stamping job.’ But it wasn’t.

Did you still have responsibilities in the RCU while you were assistant – sorry, county surveyor and bridge master? Is it a sort of two hat role?

Oh yes, oh yes, very much so, yes. I mean, I had to wind it down. You know, it was – that was the difficult part of it, winding it down. Yes, very much so. And as I say, we had these jobs going on in – well, we had a – I mentioned the Manchester situation. We had the same thing in Liverpool, of course, because they’d no – no real resources. They weren’t involved in this sort of thing. And politically they didn’t want a motorway going into Liverpool, you know. So, you know, that was – but we managed to get the M57 done, which was an outer ring road and became a trunk road motorway. And of course, led down to – erm, towards Speke, you know, the airport and so on. Yeah.

[39:05]

248 Harry Yeadon Page 249 C1379/82 Track 13

Is there much time for you to do things outside work, with what sounds like quite a lot of responsibilities?

Not really. I used to sail boats. You see on the summerhouse there, there’s an orange buoy. Can you see it?

Oh yes.

Yeah. No, we – we used to sail on the river out in dinghies. Do you ever go – have you done any sailing? And my, erm, two sons became very keen. And then eventually, when they got a bit passed dinghy sailing in the – in the mud on the Ribble and falling in – and my – I got a boat up on Windermere – again, a sailing boat. It was like sailing a dinghy, but, of course, much more civilised in that sense. And so we used to go up to Windermere. And my two sons became very keen. In fact, - the younger one, erm, he – he took a degree at Reading in estate management and is now a chartered surveyor in the London area and – dealing with commercial property, and after he’d done his degree and he was getting his chartered membership of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors – and he got a job involved in going around the world, and sailed round the world with Chay Blyth, who you’ve probably heard of. Chay Blyth? No? Oh, he was one of the – a sailor. And that was in – let’s see, they went in 19 … oh wait, 19 – yes, about 1980-’81, something like that. And so he still sails down in the Medway. He doesn’t have a boat down there but he sails with other people. The elder one, he – he became very keen. And they were quite different in their approach to sailing. The elder one was very much a – if you like, an academic sailor. He would read all about it and – and so on. The other one was much more of a – a practical sailor. The elder one, he took part in – you – does the Fastnet race mean anything to you? Ah, well, this was an annual event for the Channel out to the Fastnet rock – rock off Southern Ireland, and a tremendous storm developed and there were quite a few boats lost. And he was sailing, a crew member, with a boat there, and they managed to – they realised what was happening and they managed to get up into Milford Haven, having, you know, left the Channel. But he’s out in – he’s a lawyer out in – in Hong Kong, and he’s been out there for off and on for twenty-eight – twenty-seven, twenty-eight years, and been doing very well, with a British firm. And

249 Harry Yeadon Page 250 C1379/82 Track 13 he sails regularly with the – he made it a condition of joining this particular firm, he had worked out there for a couple of years and then he came back, that they would provide him with a container so that he could put his boat in the container. How’s that? And so all the – all their goods and chattels, he and his wife, went into this container round a boat, and also membership of the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club. Now the interesting thing was, which is a great place, you know, when we’ve been out. We haven’t been out there for eight or nine years now. But when Hong Kong was handed over to the Chinese, of course, they kept the royal, so it’s still the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club. All the other elements of – of colonial rule, of course, have virtually gone, you know, all the coats of arms and signs, etc. So he was quite happy to have the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club [laughs]. Anyway.

I’ve never tried sailing. What’s your attraction to it?

Erm, oh, well, you’re out in the open air, for a start. And it’s quite an interesting – and can be quite – quite a technical exercise, as opposed to many other sports. And we learnt a lot, sailing out here. We were only sailing around buoys, although we’d go farther afield if necessary, but with dinghies we didn’t go as far as going across to Ireland or – or the Isle of Man, for example. But no, it’s a very – a very interesting exercise. But of course, it depends how far you go. I mean, when you’re sailing dinghies, it’s a very active thing, you know. You’re getting a lot of exercise, whereas – distinct from a large, you know, gin palace [ph] [laughs], which – you don’t get much moving around. But of course, on this round the world trip – in fact, oh, there’s a picture somewhere. Oh, that’s – that’s our two grandsons out there, who were born out there. That’s in a dinghy, that one, there. Of course, they’re grown up now. They’re much taller than me. And there was another picture there, which has been taken down. I think it got too faded. It was the boat in which they went round the world. And of course the crew of fifteen, you know. It was a big thing. Anyway.

When do your children actually come on the scene, anyway?

Sorry?

250 Harry Yeadon Page 251 C1379/82 Track 13

When are your children actually born?

Where were they born?

When?

Oh when. Our two children? Oh, Mark was born in, he’s the elder one, he was born in 1956, and the younger one in 1958. And the two grandsons in Hong Kong, they were born in Hong Kong and they went to a French school in Hong Kong, so they’re completely bilingual, because their mother was – was born in a French speaking part of Canada and she was very, erm, you know, French speaking. The other two – and since then, they’ve both been in school in Somerset, at Milford, if that means anything to you. But the elder one – they’re very keen skiers. It might seem a bit odd in Hong Kong, being skiers, but they’ve got a place in – in the States at Mammoth, which is a ski – big ski centre. They’ve got a condominium there, so they go over there from Hong Kong and – but they both had nasty accidents in recent times, and I won’t bore you with details, but the elder one at the moment has only just come out of hospital because he decided – he was playing rugby out in Hong Kong anyway and decided that this was going to be his last rugby match. He was going to concentrate on skiing, because he’s on a gap year at the moment, waiting to go to university. And he broke his leg and – a nasty break. The other one, he got his ski – they have sharpened edges, as you probably – do you ever ski? – sharpened edges to the ski, and he came off – he’s very much involved in the acrobatic side and doing somersaults and things on skis. And the ski came off and managed to cut right across his thighs, both of them. So he was hospitalised for a time. So I don’t think the elder one will be doing any more rugby playing. I mean, he was a very good rugby player, I must say, but, you know [laughs].

[48:30]

Could you give me an idea of what family life is like for the Yeadons in, say, the 1960s?

251 Harry Yeadon Page 252 C1379/82 Track 13

In the 1960s, when they were growing up? Ah, well, they both went to King Edward School, which is just along the road from here. There are two schools, or were two schools and they combined in recent years. King Edward was the boy’ school and Queen Mary was the girls’ school. And, erm, very good. And the elder one, he wasn’t quite sure what he wanted to do, and a thing came round, if anybody would like to go – recommended by the school to go and see what Oxford was like. So he said, ‘Can I go on this?’ And I said, ‘Yes, sure, just for the weekend.’ He came back and he said, ‘That’s where I’m going.’ And he got his head down and he went [laughs], and it worked out for him. He’s a lawyer.

Did you have any sort of particular direction you wanted your children to go in?

Not particularly, no. Neither of them wanted to be engineers. I think they realised it was too hard work and – no, no, I think that’s a bit unfair, but they – no, although they – they went on the jobs. I used to take them out on the jobs. And in fact, the Preston Bypass, going back to there, I took the elder one when he was only about – one Sunday morning, I had to see to something and I took him on the site and he must have only been about two, something like that. And they had a chap driving a tractor on the site, and this – black fellow, nice chap. And he said, ‘Does he want a ride?’ So he had a ride on a tractor on Preston Bypass, how’s that? [Laughs] Erm, yes, it was – they were very active, you know, played rugby and so on.

What did your family make of your work as an engineer?

I think they – they didn’t really comment. I think the – they appreciated what I was trying to do and, you know, what was behind it all. I think they recognised that, although they didn’t – I’m sure when they went elsewhere they would probably refer to what my role was, you know. I don’t think there was any – but I mean, they weren’t sort of going and shouting from the housetops, sort of thing, ‘My dad’s a civil engineer working on motorways,’ and so on. And no, I don’t think there was any of that. They just accepted it. And they – they’ve both done well in their careers. I mean, I think they – I think they recognised, you know, the hard work ethic, very much so. They got their heads down. But they needed an incentive to get their heads

252 Harry Yeadon Page 253 C1379/82 Track 13 down. And it worked. The second – their generation I don’t think has got quite the same incentives. They’ve both got two sons and I wonder about them. I’ve no doubt they’ll work out.

[52:00]

You mentioned that your family, you know, understood what was behind it all. What was behind it all from your point of view?

What, the motorway network? Erm, well, first of all, as a civil engineer, you like to get things done. I think that – that’s the important thing, do things, achieve things, because, er, I’m a great believer in what I would describe as the creative careers, of producing something. My father was an electrical engineer, working, did I tell you this? Yes, I did, I think. And they were producing things mechanically. Mechanical engineering, if you like, although he was an electrical. And, erm, so that’s a big belief of mine, to create things and, er, and I think it’s unfortunate that the present generation coming up do not exercise their minds as to where things actually come from, how are they produced and so on, in this country. And I think it’s a great loss that they don’t know this. I think it’s coming round now. I think the universities are realising that they’ve got to get engineers and scientists moving and so on, but they can only do that if they’ve got the resources behind it in terms of financial backing ,you know, and investment, which is – which is sad. But, of course, we could go on all day about that, couldn’t we?

Aside from the general civil engineering point, you mentioned that there was another part to it.

Another part to it?

Another part to what was behind it all.

Well, I think the – being a Lancastrian, you know. I keep on about that. You know, when you’ve been brought up in – in a smallish industrial town and you – you’ve seen

253 Harry Yeadon Page 254 C1379/82 Track 13 the decline, in my younger days, of mining and – and textiles, you know, with the mills going and the chimneys smoking and so on. When you realise that that’s going or gone and you say, well, what’s going to happen to this place, you know. And a lot of people, of course, did move from those areas. I don’t – I can’t quote any figures at all on that, but I think it’s, you know, you – you’re brought up there and you – you – although I’ve virtually no connections there now – I’ve no family in East Lancashire now, I’ve one or two good friends still around. But, erm, no, it’s – you don’t – I’m sure you don’t do – yourself, you probably don’t want to lose your connections from where you were brought up, particularly if your – your family are there. My family are not. I mean, they’re all – the elder generation have all died off anyway. And, of course, the place has changed in all respects. But I think we brought some life back to them with the road programme, places like Burnley, for example, and – oh, the other textile towns, you know, they’ve got other industries there now. No, it’s – it’s being part of a county. And I, you know, I think it was rather interesting, in 1974, when – when I became county surveyor and bridge master, and the chairman of the county council, a Conservative, came from Blackpool, and he was involved in hotels and goodness knows what. And they always used to comment that, when anything was mentioned in a committee of anywhere in the county, I would know something about it. And because he was a county borough man, and of course they didn’t – although they were members of the local councils, they’d no involvement of – of affairs, really, outside their own patch. And – and he couldn’t – he couldn’t realise – understand this. I said, ‘Well …’ I used to say to him, ‘Look, I was born and brought up here, you know. I spent all – most of my life here,’ apart from the army and spells down in the West Country,’ which I mentioned, ‘and, you know, it’s my job’ [laughs]. And he’d say, ‘Oh.’ So I used to be able to catch him out.

[57:30]

To conclude this point though, what good do you think the motorways have done for Lancashire?

Oh, er, some of the industrial development that’s taken place, I mentioned Burnley, for example, and that commercial development would not have been there. The

254 Harry Yeadon Page 255 C1379/82 Track 13 investors would not have put their money in because there was a lack of communications. And to be fair to the planning officer, he always supported me on this. You know, the – erm, in – in actual fact, the – he said that there wasn’t much interest in the – in terms of bringing in industrial development until it was realised that, for example, the M65 was going to go ahead. And then, even before it was built, knowing that we were pushing this and that it would take part – it would take place, they started moving in, getting their sites and – and developing. And that wouldn’t have happened. So the developers were ahead of the game in – in terms of watching what was happening. And the – er, we had quite good contacts with them. The – it was sad in many respects – and I don’t know all the background to it, but the development – what were they called? The regional development …?

Corporations.

Corporations, because I thought they were – they were on the right lines. They were good. And, er, the one based in Warrington, which covered the – the North West, I thought there were some very good chaps in that, trying to get industry moving. And – and they supported us one hundred percent.

[59:40]

Did you get involved much in civic affairs outside your – your immediate role?

[CLOSED 59:40 - END]

[End of Track 13]

255 Harry Yeadon Page 256 C1379/82 Track 14

Track 14

One of the things I was wondering about was – you’ve mentioned your wife in passing several times, but I wasn’t sure how you met her in the first place.

On Victoria Station in London. We were going on a – a skiing holiday and they were, you know, the group we were going with. And of course, in those days you didn’t fly anywhere, too expensive, so you went by rail. And this was a trip to Austria. And she and her friend, who she’s still in touch with, and a pal of mine and myself, we found ourselves sitting at the same table in a – a train, Victoria Station. And that’s where it all started. And she came from the Wirral and her father was a master mariner, who’d – and this is quite interesting, that – the story went that, before the first war, he – his father was involved with the Mersey Docks and harbour board, and he said he wanted to go to sea, but his father tried to persuade him out of it. And he finished up in – in sail and went round Cape Horn in sail, and to South America. And – and therefore Sybil, my wife, she often refers to not only her father but our younger son being, erm, Cape Horners. Both been round Cape Horn under sail, but different circumstances. So he got through the first war and, of course, eventually became master mariner. So he had, in fact, two – two wars to contend with, crossing the Atlantic. And at one stage, and she can quote the date, I mean, there are photographs in all [inaud]. You know, there’s a convoy commander and that sort of thing, and, er, he – erm, what was the point I was going to make? Anyway, he had two difficult wars and managed to come through it, before he retired. But he was a senior captain in the Pacific Steam Navigation Company, which – his main trips were across the Atlantic and through the Panama Canal and down the – the west coast of South America, to all places down there. And oh yes, the point I was trying to make, at the early stages of the war, the company, which was based in Liverpool, of course, they proposed to set up a base in – in Panama and the family were all going to go out there, his wife, as well as their two children. Her brother was – erm, he’d gone to sea and became a Mersey – a Liverpool pilot. That’s the correct terminology. And, er, so there was quite an involvement with marine life. Er, he was – he was a very nice fellow, there’s no doubt about it. And they lived in Wallasey, in New Brighton, which is part of Wallasey. So that’s how I became involved. Erm … her brother, he

256 Harry Yeadon Page 257 C1379/82 Track 14 died, how long ago? Two years, three years ago now. He was very active in the lifeboat service. In fact, he got an MBE for that. And, erm, it was quite a funeral in New Brighton, but I won’t go into it. Needn’t go into detail there. So that’s the general background.

[05:08]

How did you go from meeting someone on Victoria Station to marrying them? That’s …

Well, I’d driven down there and left the car in – my car, an old banger, in – in London with a sister of mine’s in laws, which is quite convenient. And so we were driving back, myself and this friend of mine, and so we offered her a lift. We said, ‘We’ll drop you off in Wallasey and we’ll come on up north.’ And so that’s how it all started. So, you know, it’s a case of going down there for weekends, etc, etc. And, of course, her father was away most of the time anyway, so, you know, they were quite pleased to see anybody in a way. They were very hospitable. And developed from there.

[06:15]

Is a young civil engineer seen as a good marriage prospect?

Well, presumably [laughs]. Well, there we were.

When did you actually get married?

We got married in – in New Brighton, St Hilary’s Church, which is up on the high ground, if you know the area. That’s where we got married. And I had – my parents were there and it was – it was timed to suit when he was going to be at home. And I had two older sisters, both of since died, and they were there with their husbands and their family. And, you know, quite a – quite a big occasion, really, ‘cause we were

257 Harry Yeadon Page 258 C1379/82 Track 14 well known and they attended St Hilary’s Church regularly. She was in the – in the choir.

Did your wife work?

Oh yes, she was a physiotherapist, properly qualified and so on, at hospitals in the Liverpool area. And occasionally I used to go and pick her up at a hospital somewhere or other [laughs].

Did she carry on working after you married?

Er, yes, but very limited extent. She got involved with the – what was – what was known, I think, officially as the Spastics Society. And they had a centre in – in Blackpool and she used to go over there and – very much a voluntary basis. I think she did a bit of work, paid work, but I don’t think it was very much. And then the family arrived pretty quickly and so she, you know, more or less gave it up. So, you know, that’s the background, but she hasn’t practiced for – since those days.

Did your wife have much involvement with your work?

Only – only knowing what was going on and socially, because we used to have various social events we used to go to, you know, dinner dances, etc, with – erm, attended by staff or the civil engineering organisations. The Institution, of course, we were very actively involved in that, which was based in – well, the North West organisation was based in Manchester. Always has been. So there was – there was a social involvement there and – but not directly in my work, to answer your question. She saw enough of it with the paper that it used to generate, you know, reading stuff at home and getting these committee reports, which I mentioned, and going through them and the – the deadline. I mean, the thing I often remember quoting, when chaps used to draft a report, say, about a particular project and saying, ‘It is – it is hoped that a start would be made, etc, etc.’ then saying, ‘You don’t put hope. You say, it is intended that … Hope rather is in the distance and no certainty to it. But put you intended, at least it’s more positive.’ Anyway, minor point.

258 Harry Yeadon Page 259 C1379/82 Track 14

Did you work much at home?

Well, not as such. I mean, it was a fulltime job in the office. No, it was only a case of bringing – bringing stuff home to read or, you know reports to go through and – and vet and so on. And I suppose you might say – a bit of correspondence. I didn’t do correspondence at home but I might have perhaps drafted something until – till I got back into the office. But not work as such. But I never used to – erm, I never used to leave the office in Preston until, what, six o’clock-ish, something like that, at the earliest. In fact, it was rather interesting in that sense because just up from where the office was – it was onto the main Fishergate, which is the main street right through Preston, and there was a bank, a money dispenser, right on this street. And at that time of night, six o’clock-ish, or after, half past six perhaps, the – it went very quiet. All the shops had closed and so on. And I pulled my car up along the side – side of the road, and – and just nipped across the pavement to put my card in, got the money. Got back to the car and there was a – a policeman, ‘cause I was on double yellow lines [laughs]. He didn’t know who I was, of course. And I said, ‘Well, I was only …’ And there was no traffic about, nobody about at all. I said, you know, ‘I was only out of the car for a matter of minutes at the – at the very most.’ And I got a call from the assistant chief constable, who I knew quite well, came on the phone and said, ‘Who’s been a naughty boy?’ [Laughs] And, of course, it was all brushed over, you know. Got away with it [laughs]. But I always endeavoured not to use my position in – in any way, not that I needed to, but I mean, that could have been the case where I got very stroppy with the police constable, but I didn’t. He was only doing his job, I suppose, but a bit unnecessary.

[12:40]

Is there much social life attached to a career in civil engineering?

Social life? Well yes, as I say, with various events and – we used to have. And of course, the – the Institution, you see, had social events attached to it, and of course they had membership from not only, if you like, the professionals like myself, but also

259 Harry Yeadon Page 260 C1379/82 Track 14 contractors and so on, so you got to know the contractors commercially, which was a good thing. I mean, Howard Stevens, for example, I’ve known Howard for donkey’s years. A very competent straight fellow if ever there was one. And he worked for McAlpines for years. I came across him first of all in about 1962 or thereabouts, when he appeared on the scene. But very competent fellow and very fair and wouldn’t – unlike a lot of contractors, of course, who try to make as much as they can out of the contract, Howard was straight. I mean, he’d call a spade a spade and, you know, we’d have argy-bargees, but it was all done on a fair and professional way. He was well qualified, of course, professional. He’d been over in the States. I think he got a scholarship, or something like that, after he graduated here. But there you are.

Did you have any other long running colleagues in the industry you’d highlight?

Erm, well, if you go back to Preston Bypass – I think I explained that the main contract was with Tarmac, and a chap called John Cox was the agent. I think I described what an agent was, didn’t I? He was the agent for tarmac. But they didn’t do any bridge works. The two big bridges were separate contracts. But there were small bridges, a lot of them, in the Tarmac contract and they appointed a subcontractor. And the subcontractor was a fellow called Fairclough from Adlington, near Chorley. And old Leonard Fairclough was a real character. They – they’d grown from being a stone masons, really, building masonry bridges, you know, going back in generations, sort of thing. So I got to know them all quite well at Tarmac. In fact, John Cox died about … How long ago? Three or four years ago. He lived in Wolverhampton, which was Tarmac’s base, and I got a Christmas card from his wife only the other day, Rosemary Cox. And so you did get to know them, which was a good thing. They knew what they could get away with and they knew what they couldn’t get away with, and I think that’s always helpful. The – because nothing – nothing’s perfect in construction terms, but you – the contractor, if they’re good, they try to do the best they can. And in fact, a firm – I’m only quoting that because it came from one of their directors, who I got to know very well, a chap called Oswald Edge, who’s died recently. And he said to me on one occasion, ‘I don’t care how tough you are on the site with our chaps,’ he said, ‘Because it helps us. If you’re tough and say you’re not accepting so and so, so and so, it saves having two levels of supervision in

260 Harry Yeadon Page 261 C1379/82 Track 14 a way, because you’re relieving us of that duty. If you pick something up which is not right, it helps.’ And I think it was a good approach by McAlpine. This was Sir Alfred McAlpine, by the way, nothing to do with Lord McAlpine at all [laughs], different family. So, you know, we had – with contractors like that, we had good relations. And I like to think they respected us and we respected them. I think that was the approach.

Did you have any other, I guess, contacts that were long running with people in the ministry and the Department of Transport?

Social contacts, you mean?

Mm-hmm.

Erm, not really. I suppose I got to know Donald Dean very well, who was the seconded civil servant, and I got to know people on committees in London reasonably well. But of course, they were always changing their jobs and, you know, it was – it was quite different to – to our approach, you know. We joined the department as – as youngsters and had grown up within it and we knew the area, we knew the problems and I think they respected us for that. Whereas quite often they were coming in to deal with a project and they’d no background knowledge at all of what – unless they’d picked something up. And of course, as you know, civil service works on the basis of files, everything on files, and of course, we didn’t dabble in that sort of field. And going back to Jim Drake again, he said, you know, ‘Don’t – don’t you chaps talk to each other, you know, instead of writing memos?’ And of course, with people writing memos, etc, in a lot of cases they’re merely covering themselves.

You mentioned Ron Bridle over lunch as well. I wasn’t sure if you knew him professionally through your career or later on.

Oh, only professionally. I first met him, I think I told you, in – when he came to Cheshire, erm, county council. Did I? Oh, he worked – he came to Cheshire when the sub-unit was established, and so he was virtually running the sub-unit in – in

261 Harry Yeadon Page 262 C1379/82 Track 14

Cheshire. And then – where did he go after that? Anyway, he became director of one of the RCUs, the one in the Midlands, and then he became director of the Road Research Laboratory. Erm, and – what did he – what was his last job? I can’t remember now. I think it may have been director of the Road Research Laboratory when he retired.

I think so.

I think so.

As I say, I’ve met him as an eighty something year old, but what was he like back when you first met him?

When I first met him? You met him only when he was in his eighties?

Well, I’ve only met him in his eighties.

Oh right. I suppose he’d be younger than me. And then I suppose I met him more so because I got involved with the International Road Congress. And there was a conference going on in Mexico, this was in 1975, and Ron and Ron’s wife, Beryl, she came on the trip. Sybil didn’t come because the – the boys were comparatively young at the time. And so we all went on this thing to – and that was a mixed bag of people from the Department of Transport. There was a chap called – oh good heavens, names, who was the leading light from the – they always had a leading light from the Department of Transport, and he was deputy permanent secretary. [CLOSED 21:30 – 21:37] But – and there were one or two consultants and they spent a lot of their time buttering up to the – the civil service, because they were thinking about their next commission. Again, I don’t want to be unfair. But it was a mixed bag of Department of Transport people, civil servants, contractors’ people, erm, consultants and people like ourselves from local authorities.

Did you go to many other conferences?

262 Harry Yeadon Page 263 C1379/82 Track 14

Well, I went to the one – they were every four years, these things, and I went to the next one, which was in 1979, and that was in Vienna. On both occasions I found myself presenting papers on, I can’t remember the particular topics now but the – and the second one, the leading light there was Peter Baldwin, which I mentioned, Sir Peter Baldwin, who was very good. And we used to talk about attending Peter’s prayers in the morning, because we of the – of the British group, we used to go to the particular hotel where Peter was staying and we’d go through what was going to happen during the day and who was going to say what and – and so on, so we were anxious to get the British point of view forward. So it was important in that sense. And he’d got the right idea, erm, high regard for him.

[23:29]

And in fact, when the Motorway Archive started and he was invited to become involved – I may have told you this before. There were only four of us that were approached. There was myself, John Cox, which I mentioned, a chap called Tom Williams, who was the prof at Southampton University, and – who else? Very limited lot. And of course, it took off from there and we were involved then with all sorts of people, but initially it was quite a close call. And that’s – that’s in a way why we developed the – the Motorway Archive on the basis of the regional input, because, of course – based on the RCUs. I said, ‘That’s the basis that we ought to work, erm, because the background is – is all there.’

[24:30]

Were the conferences any good?

Oh yes, yes. Oh, there was a bit of social activity there, obviously. Oh yes, they were good, hearing what was going on elsewhere in the world, ‘cause it was generally international.

Are there any sort of things you recall as being particularly interesting, learning about motorway developments elsewhere?

263 Harry Yeadon Page 264 C1379/82 Track 14

Er … I think the scale of what was going on was quite remarkable. And we were doing quite well at the time, of course, but in the States, with their – erm, what were they called? The interstate system of – of highways [coughs], that was quite remarkable. But very – very interesting, in all sorts of respects.

[25:34]

But before that – did I mention the County Surveyor Society visit to the States?

Was this to do with concrete?

Er, no, no, this was nothing – not the concrete one. This was another occasion, when the county surveyor, Jim Drake was the – the president and he got – got me involved doing the donkeywork with all this lot. And, you know, a good group of county surveyors from all over the country. We decided to go to both the States and to Europe. And a chap called Lovell, Colonel Lovell of West Riding, he was given the job of – of dealing with the European side, and Jim Drake took on the – the USA/Canada side. And Jim Drake said, ‘Oh, I’ll see if I can arrange for you to come in on this lot.’ He wanted somebody to do the donkeywork, you see, dogsbody, which I quite enjoyed because they were all a good – good crowd of people. And we met our opposite numbers in – in Washington, which was the American Association of State Highway Officials, ASHO, and – yes, we – we were dealt with quite – quite well, actually. We had certain states to visit and we – we were allocated to go to – erm, where were we? We were in Chicago, I know. I forget which state it was now. But on that occasion, erm, Jim Drake – Catherine Drake, his wife, she came along and his – an old pal of his, who was a cement manufacturer, he came along, and a cousin of his, so we – we had about seven of us all together, I suppose. And so we had quite a big car and we went the rounds. And, er, so that was interesting. We finished up in – in New York at the end of the – the trip, I think. Anyway, I was fortunate in getting a trip to Mexico, three trips to the States and the odd trip to France.

264 Harry Yeadon Page 265 C1379/82 Track 14

Other than the example about the concreting you pointed out earlier on, were there any other cases where you or the British Motorway Programme learned things from other countries’ motorway programmes?

Erm …

Direct influences, that sort of thing.

Yes, I suppose – going back to concrete pavements as well, the – the Swiss were – were very – very much involved in this. And I remember being involved with somebody and commenting about the Swiss approach and their response was, ‘Well, don’t forget we are a nation of watchmakers. We get things right,’ which I think was quite, you know, a very precise position.

[29:21]

Did you have much to do with professional bodies in engineering?

Well, I’d – I’d always been involved with the Institution of Civil Engineers, because when you graduated, got a degree, you were only part way there, to being professionally qualified, and you didn’t normally become professionally qualified until you were about, well, into your late twenties. And in order to do that, you had to go through, I think they’ve changed the title now, the professional interview, as it was called. And this meant that you had to submit examples of – of your work to a – er, a nominated group of – of senior engineers in the Institution, and also attend for interview, a bit like this in a way. And it was quite tough. And in fact, I made no bones about it, the first time I went for this professional interview, I failed. And the reason I failed, it was not unusual; two things. One, the chap – there should have been two interviewers, not just one, it wasn’t just left to one. But for some reason or other, one of the nominated group couldn’t attend and the chap who was interviewing me was a railway engineer. I didn’t know anything about railways, or not very much, anyway, and so I was in disadvantage at the outset. And the report I made – Jim Drake had nominated me and he complained to the Institution, being a senior member,

265 Harry Yeadon Page 266 C1379/82 Track 14 and said, ‘Look, this is – this is not right, that first of all you’ve broken the rules in terms of the number of people interviewing and it should be on – the interview should be based on something of which the candidate has – has got some knowledge.’ Anyway, I got through it alright the second time, which wasn’t very long. So you then became a chartered engineer as a member of the Institution, before you’d been a student member, but this was a full member. And then ultimately, of course, I – as you became senior, you could apply to become a fellow, which I am, and I don’t now pay any – any subscription. I get all the papers and so on. If you’ve been around a long time, they relieve you of a subscription. The other body, the other two bodies I was involved with, one was the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers, which was absorbed within the Institution of Civil Engineers eventually. That was another one that I was involved with. And you had two – two exams on that. That was written exams. And that was quite tough, surprisingly. And, of course, much wider field in many respects, different approach. And the other one was the Institution of Highway Engineers, which was not a chartered body in terms of getting the royal charter, which others had. And that’s changed its name in recent times and got – and got chartered status only a couple of years ago, and it’s now the Institute of – Institution of Chartered Highways and Transportation Engineers. It’s a bit of a mouthful. And they’re – they’re very active now and they can award chartered status now, which they didn’t previously. But a very good one. So I’ve been involved in all those three, of which one’s been absorbed in the other.

Other than the exams, what sort of involvement?

With – with any of them?

Just [inaud].

Well, in the ICE, Institution of Civil Engineers, you didn’t have exams. If you’d got a degree, you were exempt from taking – you could – you could approach it without a degree and take exams. You could do, not many did, and of course less now because an approach through a degree is much more standard, isn’t it? The IHT did not have the chartered status anyway. But the Institution of Municipal Engineers, now that was

266 Harry Yeadon Page 267 C1379/82 Track 14 interesting because they had – they had a rule there that there were six papers you had to sit, written papers, examinations, and you had to, in order to get anywhere, you had to get a high standard on four out of the six, something like that, if I remember rightly. But if you – if you had war service, they conceded on that, in the sense that if you were only involved, as I say, in a second time round, of taking four instead of the six. Then, on the basis of – of getting two thirds, which was the original rule, you ought to be through, you know. Fine points like that. And the chap who ran the show, the secretary, was a bit of a hardliner anyway. And, you know, you – you weren’t going to sit six papers unless you needed to, you know. You’d sit the four which suited you. Anyway, it all sorted itself out and, as I say, they ceased to exist eventually.

How important are qualifications from those bodies?

Oh, very important if you’re appointing anybody because you wouldn’t appoint anybody purely and simply on the basis of – of their degree without some sort of investigating – if you were recruiting and getting graduates in, you would be looking at their – their degrees to see what – how well they’d done, apart from any personal interviews. But quite important. And, erm, there had been cases in the – there’s a disciplinary committee of the Institution, which is reported on in the weekly magazine we get every week, of somebody who was alleging that they were a chartered engineer and they weren’t, and disciplinary action was taken. You know, it is important, not only to get in in the first place, but also to ensure that you continue with your – your membership, because things are always changing. And of course, we – in the department, we encouraged membership, very much so. And I think I may have mentioned the Lancashire County Engineering Society, which was formed, and [coughs] this was in association with the professional institutions. The County Engineering Society wasn’t, of course, a professional body as such, and we used to meet every, you know, we had a programme of meetings in County Hall and County Hall made provision for us to hold meetings there and it worked very well. And you were expected to attend, you know, in the – as far as the senior staff were concerned. You know, you’d miss the odd one but you were expected to be there.

[38:17]

267 Harry Yeadon Page 268 C1379/82 Track 14

Weren’t you president, or vice president, of the ICE at some point, or am I getting that wrong?

Yes, yeah, that’s right. Well, I got elected initially – I was chairman of the North West Association and then I got elected to the council, the national council, and – and I served on that for a few years and then I was nominated to – as a vice president. I didn’t – I didn’t really expect to become president and I didn’t really want to be president. I might have been able to achieve that if I’d really gone about it, but when you’re away from – from London to that extent, you’re not in a position to really exercise that way. But, you know, the – there were some very prominent people became president. And it was quite an honour, and of course it was – in the old days it was almost a certain knighthood to be achieved, the presidency. That’s tended to die out now. It doesn’t happen. But, you know, you’re going back to Brunel’s day, that sort of thing, when the Institution was founded. And they always used to say the Institution was founded on the basis of – the engineers of the day used to meet in the coffeehouses of London and they used take bets as to whose railway bridge was going to fall down next, you know [laughs]. It was a bit of a joke, really. But that was in the days of the – of the railway, you know, in the 1830s or thereabouts, you know.

What sort of things does a vice president of the Institute of Civil Engineers actually have to do anyway?

Well, you found yourself – I was only talking to somebody the other day about this. You found yourself chairing the very important national meetings, which were held at Great George Street, which is the headquarters of the ICE I mean, for example, I was talking to somebody about the Falklands and the – there was a meeting held there after the Falklands campaign, when the – er, the head man in the Falklands, the governor, of course, he was giving a paper about what had actually happened there, along with the people that had been involved in the building of the runway in the Falklands, a major runway, of course. And I chaired that meeting, which he gave papers – or gave a paper. And who else was there. That sort of level. You were – you couldn’t expect the president to be chairing every meeting which was held there,

268 Harry Yeadon Page 269 C1379/82 Track 14 so you got asked to do that. And the other thing was chairing particular committees of the Institution. And I got landed, which was a bit delicate in a way, with the legal affairs committee. And I’m no lawyer, but I’m interested in the law and I was particularly interested in the conditions of contract, because I’d been involved at the hard frontline, if you like, in dealing with conditions of contract. So I found myself chairing that and there were some quite prominent people involved in that committee. There were one or two, erm, barristers, you know, Queen’s Council, who are engineers, one or two, and they were involved with this, ‘cause I was the chairman [laughs] and they were part of the committee. But, you know, good chaps. So you got involved in that sort of thing, and I became, I suppose you might say, the – the voice of the – of the conditions of contract, really, because they were always known as the ICE conditions. That’s all changed now, because it was decided, not in my – I wasn’t in favour of this, to set up a new form of contract completely. The new engineering contract, it was called, I think, and they – I think it was wrong. And the – I think a lot of – well, I won’t say a lot. A lot I know of certain projects with conditions of contract like that and it’s been an absolute bonanza for contractors, because of the way in which the thing operates. And quite contrary to the way in which I’ve been describing of working closely with contractors.

[43:50]

And of course, what I should add, if you’re not familiar with this, is that what you do when you’re inviting tenders is to – you have a nominated list of tenderers. It isn’t an open thing for everybody to have a go. You know, you have a list, a tender list, which is reviewed from time to time, depending on how competent the contractor’s been, how efficient and so on, and so on. So the – they might not appear on a list for future jobs. And there’s always a lot of demand for contractors to try and get on – on a list, a tender list, for a big job. And of course, then you, you’re a bit open, a bit open, to allegations, I’m not saying anything of any consequence, of giving preference to contractors who you might be said to be friendly with. Quite wrong, of course, and you’ve got to be prepared to defend what you’ve got. Erm, it worked quite well. But of course, it’s all done in the open. I mean, if you’re not doing it yourself you’re putting it forward to a committee and that is public knowledge anyway, so, you know,

269 Harry Yeadon Page 270 C1379/82 Track 14 it’s no personal involvement in choosing somebody. And, of course, we always worked on the basis of the lowest tender anyway, which is tending to go to some extent with projects which are – are going out now.

[45:55]

But it’s – I mean, I think the Olympics and the development of the Olympic stadium and – and so on, the Olympic village, I think – I think that’s a superb way of going about things. And the chap who – who ran the whole side of the construction was a – a very good chap, in being a contractor’s man. What’s his name now, Sir – he’s gotten himself knighted. Ha, it’ll come to me. But, you know, it’s – and the reason why it was so successful is that they were pretty well given a free hand to do what was necessary. And he did it professionally, without any interference with treasurers [laughs] and people like that in committees, got on with it. Anyway.

[46:50]

I guess we’ve ranged over quite a large range of different topics over our sessions, but I guess we’re approaching the point at which you actually retire, aren’t we? When did you actually retire?

I retired in 1985, in – I suppose it was in April. And the reason for 1985 is that, you know, things had been changing and it wasn’t quite what it used to be anyway. And of course, in order to get your – your full pension, which was based on – on eightieths, to get your full pension rights, of course, you’d got to get forty years in, you see, forty eightieths, half your closing salary. But they had a concession there; if you had wartime service then that was allowed for, half of that was allowed for. So in fact, I retired, erm, I suppose two years before I would have been sixty-five, something like that anyway. But I got – I got my full – full entitlement, pension, taking into account the war service.

When you said it had changed and it wasn’t what it used to be, what did you mean?

270 Harry Yeadon Page 271 C1379/82 Track 14

Well, I think the fact that the large scale engineering aspects were being taken away from – from local authorities, I think that was one of the changes. And – although it was interesting, but things like public transport and waste disposal, that was another thing, of course, which – which I inherited. Er, it wasn’t what it used to be. You, you know, you’d been through the golden – the golden age, that’s what I was looking for before, the golden age of – of civil engineering, certainly from the point of view of highways in this country, was that period of – of thirty years, which – which I was involved in from 19 – when did I get involved in the – in the motorway programme? 19, er … where are we? ’50 … let’s see, it was ’56 or thereabouts. ’56 was when it really sort of took off. We were dabbling in it before that, in the early ‘50s, so the thirty years extended to – into the ‘80s, when I retired in ’85, you know. It was of that order. But it was – it was a different world and – not that I was complaining at all. I mean, I’d – I’d full authority. Nobody was undermining my authority. But it wasn’t the same as it used to be, you know, when you’d say, ‘Right, I’m going out to have a look at such a job, see what’s going on.’ And that was enlightening, to see whether the things were – were working out alright, whether the Clause 12 situation was being dealt with properly [laughs]. I’m afraid it was – it was a bit of a bee in my bonnet was that one, but important in terms of contract. But I don’t think you’ve got anything like that in the present form of contract at all, which I think is sad, and, as I say, bonanza.

[50:35]

How did you have to get involved with waste disposal?

How did I get involved? Well, er, the – it was a period when the use of incineration plants, which was quite common at that time, in the early ‘70s, was quite prevalent. But, of course, there was a lot of opposition if you had an incineration plant in an urban area because of the smell and the fumes and so on. And we inherited – I’m only quoting an example now. Burnley, for example, which was a county borough and they had developed a scheme for an incineration plant. And because opposition was growing, we – we took over responsibility for that, but we scrapped it. We said, ‘No, it’s not on. We’ll go for the principle of landfill rather than – rather than

271 Harry Yeadon Page 272 C1379/82 Track 14 incineration.’ And so we developed quite a few big landfill sites. For example, as you come from Preston through to Lytham, of course you’ve got the – the marshy area on the side of the Ribble, which had been used for waste disposal of different kinds, not only the domestic waste I’m talking about, but also sewage disposal as well. We weren’t involved with sewage disposal, purely and simply, you know, the dry – dry waste, if you like. I don’t – I suppose it’s a reasonable term to use, but it’s stuff that goes in your bins. Plus, of course, commercial use. So we developed quite a few waste disposal sites because of the engineering aspects of it, of course, because it was an engineering job in a way, forming a – a place where you could put the material and dealing with – with all the waste and covering it, etc, etc. So the – those were – those were the two major changes, public transport and waste disposal, added at the loss of being involved either as an agent authority or as an RCU sub-unit on major engineering construction.

Why landfill and not burning?

Well, the burning – well, of course, it was, as I say, potentially, pollution of the atmosphere. You know, you couldn’t just get away with it. And of course, the other thing was – was building transfer stations. I mean, for example, we built quite a big one just outside Blackpool, not far from here, where the stuff collected in the – the vehicles that come round and empty the bins, took the stuff to the – this waste – this transfer station and then were shipped, in much larger vehicles, to a landfill site, which was – it was all economics, really, looking at the best way of dealing with it. And I think we left it – but since then – it’s quite interesting. I went on a visit there, ooh, a few months ago, was it? I can’t remember now. And this is a very big plant, south of Preston, and bringing in waste from all sorts of areas. I don’t know the extent. Highly sophisticated. And it’s like going through an airport, you know. You walk along the corridor and there’s glass screens and you’re looking down on – on what the people are doing down below in – in sorting out waste, etc, etc. And, you know, highly sophisticated. But the economics, they must be worthwhile.

How did the 1970s equivalent compare?

272 Harry Yeadon Page 273 C1379/82 Track 14

How does …?

How did the 1970s equivalent compare?

The 1970s equivalent, before all this started? Well, it was a bit crude, really. I mean, one outside Lytham, the – when we inherited this job, and what it was, it was a series of pits on – on this site. And all you did was move stuff into the pits and – and cover it up and then move into another pit, you know. Very – very crude. Or in – onto ramps, you know, building up so that the vehicle could go onto the top of the – the ramp and tip in and so on. Quite crude in a way. And of course, recycling started coming to the fore, you know. We’ve all got these – these massive different bins. We’ve got – what is it? We’ve got five bins at the moment here for a comparatively small house. You know, we’ve got two garden waste bins, one waste paper bin, that’s three, a grey bin which is for anything which you can’t recycle in any shape or form, and another one taking glass bottles and – and plastic containers, you know [laughs]. The growth in the – I mean, what it’s costing, I’ve no idea.

Was recycling not something that you considered at all?

Well yeah, we didn’t because it was expensive, you know. And we were – we were always looking for the cheapest solution. And most local authorities were, of course. But now, by centralising it and putting it in the hands of the larger authorities, it must be more efficient, I think, in financial terms. But I’ve no idea because I’m out of it.

[56:40]

How did you feel when you retired?

How did I feel? Erm, I was – I was quite – quite happy to retire and – lots of things we wanted to do, etc, like sailing boats and going abroad, camping abroad and – etc. And we had a – at one stage we had a touring caravan as well that we took over to France. So it was quite active, apart from the other activities that – in the area. Sybil was very much involved in everything you could think of, from pottery to – she was

273 Harry Yeadon Page 274 C1379/82 Track 14 always involved in the lifeboats anyway. She used to – she ran the lifeboat shop down in Lytham for years, you know. She only does a stint once a week now in the season. So, you know, it was – it was there. But I didn’t get involved – I mentioned the Civic Society. I rather opted out of that. I was at one point on the fringe of – of joining, er … sh …. what was it? Anyway, doesn’t matter. I didn’t [laughs].

Are there any other big activities that you’ve got into in your retirement?

Not really, no. I don’t think so.

[58:25]

I was wondering about the Motorway Archive.

Well, that was the thing, of course, which started in – in 1997. You know, it was some years after I retired. And that – that took a lot of – a lot of work, you know, apart from what you see in that book, which is only a summary, really. And we still haven’t finished it yet. And of course, what – what the concern is among people like myself, the older lot – it started off the Motorway Archive, essentially dealing with motorways. Well, you couldn’t – you couldn’t merely consider motorway as such if the motorway was part of a network. You had to refer to link roads connected with the system, and particularly the high standard all purpose roads. And now, of course, you’ve got, erm, a group who have joined the – the trust since I retired and John Cox retired and a few more of the old stages, and people have come in from bodies like the Highways Agency and so on, who didn’t want to know when we started this up. And the Department of Transport didn’t want to know. And they wouldn’t – they wouldn’t find any money for us at all. And of course, the only expenditure we had was in expenses, travelling expenses, because it was all voluntary. And, you know, we had, I suppose if you took the figure nationally, it must have been, you know, several hundred people involved in it directly or indirectly.

Why did you think it was important to preserve?

274 Harry Yeadon Page 275 C1379/82 Track 14

Well, I think – I think Peter Baldwin, who was only a keen railway enthusiast – and of course, the – the railways have got quite a good legacy, have they not, in places like York and – and so on? And he felt that although he hadn’t been – he’d only been involved in – in the motorway programme to a very limited expense – extent, as such. And he said, ‘Well look, the railways have been well archived. We ought to do the same with motorways.’ Now this new lot that have – have come in – and although I don’t criticise him, he’s a good chap, a chap called John Wootton, who was the prof at Southampton, and he’s now the chairman of the trust. And – but he hasn’t, to be fair to John, he hasn’t had the practical involvement in the business. And of course, what they’re trying to do is to introduce other types of road into the reckoning. Well, you can’t use the title Motorway Archive when you haven’t got a motorway. And of course, people say, ‘Well, what is a motorway?’ And a motorway really, to define it, is purely and simple the regulations as to what sort of traffic can use it. The standards of design and – and construction are nothing really to with the fact whether it’s a motorway or not. And so quite a few of us are disillusioned about the whole thing. And quite frankly, I’ve never had any time for the Highways Agency at all, I’m afraid. Did I tell you the tale about the woman that phoned me up on one occasion? It was – it was the Queen’s eightieth birthday, I think. Well, the Queen came up and inaugurated the Lancashire-Yorkshire motorway, M62, because it was important historically, of course. You know, the two – the two rose counties, the red rose and the white rose. And a woman had phoned me up one day and said, ‘Well, I’m from the Highways Agency.’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ She said – the Queen was eighty, eightieth birthday. And she said, ‘Oh, when the Queen came to inaugurate the M62, were you – were you present?’ So I said, ‘Yes, I was.’ She said, ‘Well, could you please tell me who was there from the Highways Agency?’ I said, ‘Look, young lady, you ought to go away and do your homework. It didn’t exist in those days.’ [Laughs] You know, that’s the sort of situation, you know, where people get put in jobs like that and they’ve no knowledge of – really of background, which is unfortunate.

[1:03:25]

What is the Highways Agency and when did it come on the scene, sorry?

275 Harry Yeadon Page 276 C1379/82 Track 14

When did it start? Oh, I might cast my mind back now. Let’s see. It was – it was in the 1990s, you know. It was – I can’t remember offhand. And – but it was at the time when government were setting up all sorts of agencies. The Environment Agency, for example, was another one. And the Highways Agency, of course, took over very much the – I’ve never been quite sure as to what the distinction is between the way in which the Highways Agency operates and the Department of Transport, or the Department for Transport, should I say, operates, as to what their clear division or role is, I don’t know. But presumably Highways Agency isn’t involved in – in the politics of – of the business. That’s the Department’s stuff. And – but, I mean, there are examples there of projects which have cost a fortune, which I reckon are the Highways Agency using the new type of conditions of contract, for a start. Not using the experience that was there. You know, a lot of very experienced people, not purely myself, I mean, I could quote many, who over the years have learnt how to set up a – a scheme, run a project and get a reasonable return in terms of the financial side.

[1:05:00]

On the subject of financing as well, you mentioned that there are a few things you wanted to add about the way that the financial controls were exercised on the motorway scheme.

Well, the process really was, in the old days, that if you got a project, you put in a programme, a minister makes an announcement, perhaps at a certain time of a year or individually, saying that, you know, we’re putting this in the programme for a start to be made in such a financial year in the future. And – er, and that’s what we’re intending doing in financial terms. Erm, so you prepare the scheme. You – you design the job and you produce an estimate, the best estimate that you could do on the basis of the information you’ve got. You might have done quite a lot of site investigation and so on, and you might have gone into looking – oh, you would have looked at alternative lines. So you’d come up with what’s your chosen solution. So you produce an estimate and so you – you put this up, and this becomes the starting point for finances. And the Treasury might say – not directly to yourselves, but to the – erm, the agency or whoever it is, whether it’s an agent authority or a consultant and

276 Harry Yeadon Page 277 C1379/82 Track 14 so on, ‘Well, alright, we’ve got the estimate, but, ooh, er, far too high. We can’t possibly go along with this.’ So it might get pushed out of the programme at that stage. And then you – you have another go and say, ‘Look, the demand is there. The need is there. We could prove it with all our traffic assessments and so on,’ which is a fundamental point, showing what the – what the case is. You’ve got to establish that in the first place. Erm, and so you work on that basis. But that – that figure you finally find yourself with might be good, bad or indifferent, and it depends how thorough the – the design has been done and what’s the basis of estimating. You know, you can go back historically and you can do – work up a set of bills of quantities, if you like, based on what you think the specification might be. And you can arrive at – at a figure. But the rates which you include in that bill of quantities has got to be – has got to take into account inflation, which of course is the difficulty if you know it’s not going to be built actually for five years or something. And so this is another difficulty. And of course, we went through the – the period when inflation was running at over twenty percent and – very difficult to get good – good estimates. But this could be a – a key to the whole thing. But eventually somebody’s got to be realistic about it in government and say, ‘Look, we need this job. We’re going to do it and we’ll arrive at a – a different estimate.’ But once that – that funding is – is established – not established, but once – once it’s determined, you know, it becomes a bit of a, you know, you’re tied to it more or less. Now I mentioned the Westmoreland situation as an example, you know, based on an estimate which I – we – we’d no involvement in preparing it. But there’s a great skill there, of course, based on experience, of what things might – might be like, but it’s all sort of – well, as I say, based on experience. I can’t say any more than that.

[1:09:30]

On the subject of experience, I guess I’m wondering how, from your point of view as a civil engineer involved in the motorway programme before – what you see the future as being for the motorways.

Well, I think the demand is there and there are a number of cases – and of course, the other thing which I haven’t mentioned is – is this so called motorway management,

277 Harry Yeadon Page 278 C1379/82 Track 14 you know, which you – I’ve no doubt you’re familiar with, which has crept in in recent years, and that is using hard shoulders as running lanes at the – at the times of the day when traffic volumes are – are high. And I think this is – this is ridiculous, quite frankly. I think it’s just backing off what needs to be done and that is widening to produce extra lanes, not trying to make use of the hard shoulder and cut it out. And I don’t know what the accident records are, but I mean, the staffing involved in being available to switch traffic into hard shoulder lanes, you know, it must be very difficult to control. And one of these days there’s going to be a real pile up somewhere, I’m sure, which would be very unfortunate, to say the least. And the other feature, of course, is, in trying to widen what’s already – or trying to make use of or manage what’s already there, it’s ignoring the importance of the – the county roads, or the local authority roads, connecting in, because unless you – you’re looking at the network as a whole, which we tried to do as an authority, you know, you’re going to – you’re going to create a – an awful hoo-ha on the – on the side roads. And so, you know, that should be taken into account. But of course, the – what appeared to be happening in the Department of Transport, I’m perhaps a bit critical here, the – a lot of the civil servants in the Department of Transport – all they were interested in is the trunk road network, because they were the highway authority for it, and not interested in anywhere else, which was a very negative approach, whereas we had to live with the circumstances in the – in the particular area. And I think this was – this was a fundamental point. So the – there are jobs now which were developed as high standard all purpose roads, which should be motorways, not only in terms of the motorway regulations but also the – erm, the standards adopted and, you know, where do you draw the line? I mean, take Preston for example. I don’t know how – you’re probably not familiar with coming – coming off the M6 down at – at Samlesbury, which is at the bottom of the hill where it crosses the Ribble. And of course, there’s a – there’s a hill there leading up to the cemetery. A bit unfortunate, that [laughs] in a respect. But that hill – that hill has been the subject of concern all my life, because we used to come out in the old family car, out to the coast, and I remember my – one of my first things that was civil engineering wise is – at the bottom of the hill was a – was a bridge over the Ribble and asking my father, you know, ‘How do they go about deciding how to build a bridge like this, you know?’ And it had been improved over the years from – it had been, I suppose, the old toll – toll road initially. And it’s still

278 Harry Yeadon Page 279 C1379/82 Track 14 there, that hill, and the traffic problems on it, you know, but nobody’s come up with any real solution. Partially, you know, the M6 has relieved it. The access into – into Preston from the south has relieved it to some extent because that’s improved. But, you know, it’s that sort of situation which doesn’t go away. And there must be many, many cases throughout the country.

[1:14:08]

I guess that brings us pretty much more or less up to the present day, doesn’t it? Or even projecting into the future in some cases [laughs].

Yes.

And I guess my last question really was how you found doing this – this extended interview.

Oh, I’ve found it very enjoyable, Tom, I must say. I mean, it’s things that you tended to forget about and, you know, makes the mind – I mean, they always – they always say, ‘You’ve got a very good memory.’ That’s me. I say, ‘Well, you know, it’s – I’m pleased that I have got a good memory.’ But I’ve had to work at it, you know, it doesn’t just appear. You know, you – you deal with matters and so on and it – somehow or other it gets in there and you remember these things. I know people and former colleagues that have gone down with dementia and so on, very sad. And my – the chap who took over from me when I retired, Mike Callery, and he’s always complaining – as I say, I went to his eightieth birthday party a few weeks ago and every time I talk to him, which I do, he’d say, ‘Oh god, I wish I had your memory, you know.’ And I mean, I don’t think there’s anything special about it; it’s the fact that, you know, brought up in the place and know the place and – and remember people. I’m interested in the people that – that I was involved with, the staff, you know. Unfortunately we’re also going to funerals and – and so on, but, you know, very good chaps. I wasn’t unique in that sense at all. I’m not pretending I was unique or – or cleverer than anyone else, not for the last. I can pick out fellows and say, you

279 Harry Yeadon Page 280 C1379/82 Track 14 know, ‘He’s a bright chap. He’s far brighter than me, you know, in terms of a – a particular difficult engineering problem.’

What sort of chaps do you think civil engineers generally are, based on your experience? Is there a stereotype?

To some extent, yes. They want to do things. I think that’s a key factor. They want to achieve something. And they want to be able to say, ‘I was involved in that job,’ you know, in years to come. And I think this is what motivates people as much as anything else. It isn’t the money you get out of it, it’s not a very profitable career to be involved in, at all, you know. Contractors, some contractors now particularly –I’m hammering this a bit, you know, when I said that there’s been an absolute bonanza and even the consultants, you know, what they’re getting now in, you know, major companies now and – I mean, I’m not against it. I’m not against that and that’s a political decision, really. But we’re not in it for the – for the money. And I think you’d find that even the contractors who come out of it very well in financial terms, I’d like to think they’d say the same thing. Alright, we made some money out of it, but we enjoyed doing what we were doing.

I think that seems a very good point to – to stop, unless you’ve got anything else you think we’ve missed out.

I don’t think so, Tom. Er, I don’t really think so. I suppose you could go on and on. But as I say, I’m – I’m not unique. That’s the thing I want to emphasise. And perhaps I’ve been fortunate in having an interesting career on – on my own patch, in a way. Erm, yeah.

Harry, thank you very much indeed.

[End of Transcript]

280