Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature
of the
Legislative Assembly of Manitoba
DEBATES
and PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)
Publishedunder the authorityof TheHonourable LouiseM. Dacquay Speaker
.· · ... �·:::��-...:���
Vol. XLVI No. 21-1:30 p.m., Monday, April22, 1996
ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature
Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation
Name CnnstihJency � ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave K.ildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Robl in-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charles wood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage la Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. 1071
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA
Monday, April22 , 1996
The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker, on April18, the Minister of Health tabled the APM contract and tabled the, quote, final PRAYERS working group document presented to the steering committee. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE This report was presented to the House and to the Home Care Services media and to thepublic of Manitoba as the final APM documents. This waslater contradictedby the release of Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I a report in Estimates on Friday-and this is my first am rising this afternoon at the first opportunity that I opportunityto riseafter having reviewed this document have on a matter of privilege and this matter will be by a document titled Home Care Demonstration Project: fbllowed, accordingto the rules, by a substantive motion Advisory Committee Presentation, Manitoba Health, which I will introduce at the end of my comments. June 22,1994.
Recentlywe have beengiv1:n information with respect MadamSpeaker, the ministersaid there wasno report, to the Connie Curran APM contract which states in thenthe minister said there was a report, then there was Schedule A, page 93, quote, a final report of the not a report,then the minister released a so-called report, analytical findings will be presented to the home care and then ministerthe released another reportthat wasa steering committee. so-called finalreport .
On May 27,1994, in this Chamber, in response to a Madam Speaker,how canI, as a member of anelected question from myself, the Minister of Health (Mr. constituency, do my job when the Minister of Health McCrae) stated and I quote from Hansard again: " ... obstructs, when the Minister of Health does not tell the thework ofAPM with our dc�artment on thehome care fullstory , whenthe Minister of Health says one thing in project lastyear arrived at cc:rtainrecommendatio ns." the Chamber, another thing outside of the Chamber, another thing in the Chamber, and then another thing On April15 ofthis year on CJOB radio, theminister outside of the Chamber? changed his position and I quote: The work done by .t\PMwith my department with respect to home care was MadamSpeaker, this not is according to Beauchesne's not somethingthat resulted in any formal report. Rule No. 30, a dispute over the facts. This is a dispute over the integrity of not just the minister, but the very OnApril 16 in the Winnipeg Free Press, the Minister government which he represents with respect to these of Health stated, "The Cunran report, as I recall, may documents, with respect to the entire issue of home care bave madereference to contracting or allowing for some and with respect to the Connie Curranreport. competition." ..."I made a decisionthat therewas not much tobe gained by releasing it." MadamSpeaker, it would be one thing ifthe minister, in dealingwith a question from anelected representative Again, MadamSpeaker, on April 17 inthis Chamb er, -myjob andour job is torepresent ourconstituen ts. We theMinister ofHealth stated andI quote, " ...the APM make inquiries of the government of public documents workwith respectto home carewas not the subject of a and of public information. The minister fails to release fbrmal report. What the process involved and the it or if he does release it, he releases parts of it. arrangement involved was a process to facilitate the Ultimately,when he does release it, we findthat they are peoplewho work for Manitoba Health in theprovision different documents that have been released, and the of home care services in trying to identify areas where minister purports to show one document represents a improvements could be made. That is what was arrived situation, when in fa ct there is another document that he at. There was no formal APM report." is holding, and he did not release it until Friday. 1072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1996
* (1335) home care, the lack of studies, the lack oJ� frankly, competence. Madam Speaker, this would be bad enough. This, in itself, in my opinion, would be a breach of privilege in MadamSpeaker, I askyou to look at this situationand myrights as a member andour rightson this side of the rule on it. House to obtaininformation from the government. But what is worse, the final document that was released MadamSpeaker, I move, seconded by themember for Friday,the documentfinal that came to our hands Friday, Crescentwood(Mr. Sale), thatthis house do o;:nsure the appearedto have beenaltered. It appeared tohave been Minister of Health for a breach of the privil(:ges of its doctored. There are major inconsistencies in this members in the matter of information made available document, and isthat aninsult to thepublic of Manitoba aboutprivatizati the on ofhomecare, a misrepfl�entation andto the electedrepresentatives whom we serve. ofreports and background documents on this issue, and thatthis m.atter be referredto the Standing Committeeon MadamSpeaker, this document misses page 33, page Privileges and Elections. 35, page 36. There are two pages 38, there are two pages 39, and two pages 39 that are differentfrom each Mr. KevinLamoureux (Inkster) : It is supposed to be other. There arereferences in this document to studies somewhat rare, as Beauchesne's indicates, in terms of and information that do not appear in this document. how often a matter of privilege does arise, aiJid when it What is worse, there are no numbers on the first 17 does arise, that thisHouse take it in the most serious pages, and yet, there are not even 17 pages that go fashion in terms of the context in which it has been betweenNo. 1 andNo. 17. presented. Having said that, Madam Speaker, we have been in the Health Estimates for a number of days now MadamSpeaker, this is an affrontto members on this andhave attempted on numerousoccas ions to be able to side of the bench. This is an ontaffr to democracy; this get information from the Minister of Heillth (Mr. is an affront to the intelligence of the people of McCrae). The member for Kildonan raises an issue Manitoba. In some jurisdictions therewould be public which,no doubt, does thewammt discussion of members inquiriesbased on the way that this minister has handled of this Chamber and some sort of action m:eds to be this issue. Now, with respect to the Connie Curran taken. contract, we have seen one contradiction after another. We have documentsseen not released; we have seen the I want to express to the House that over the last minister statingthere are reports and then there wereno numberof days we, representing the LiberalParty, have reports, and then there were reports. Then he finally asked the Minister of Health to provide infotmation to tabled the report. the members of this Chamber, and through us, to membersof the public. We believe that theinf ormation Last week, on CBC television, he said there was a is absolutely essential. report,then theminister said therewas not a report. He saidthe same thing in theHouse andthen in the hallway. The Minister of Health respondedto me once, saying On Thursday, they tabled documents that were thatthere are tons of informationthat are out there, a lot purportedlythe Carnie Curran documents and theywere of it; all we have to do is go and look for it andwe will not the documents.final Thenon Friday, the final insult, findit. MadamSpeaker, I do not questiontlutt fact that we get a so-called Connie Curran report and final thereare piles and piles of information, from one coastto documents. Thereare pages missing, there are pages not the othercoast, to the Americans,that deal with home in order, there is informationmissing. careservices. What we havebeen asking directly of the Minister of Health is to provide us information that Madam Speaker, this is not a dispute over the facts. specifically states to privatize home care services in the This is clearly an inability or incapacity on the part of provinceofManitoba is in thebest interestof theclient. this minister and this government to deal with the very fundamental issues we have been discussing in this We have, day in and day out, Madam Speaker, put Chamberfor two weeksnow-the lack of information on pressure on this government to materialize
* (1355) Madam Speaker, ifwe areto have any proper debate on this issue, we have to find out the real reasons why Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): dte government is making these decisions. We have Madam Speaker, as the member for Inkster (Mr. been trying since the beginning of this session to Lamoureux) has said, a question of privilege ought dleterminethat. One of thekey things we wanted was to seldom, ifever, to arise in a parliamentaryprocess. To findout ifthe government had any objectiveevidence to allege the things that the member for Kildonan (Mr. support the privatization of home care. We asked Chomiak) has alleged against the Minister of Health continuously in this Legislature, in Question Period, of (Mr. McCrae)is a very, very serious matterand one that thlsminister, asked we him to deal with thequestions we needs to be takenunder great consideration. bad raisedand we also asked himto table all the reports that he was dealing with. MadamSpeaker, ifthe member for Kildonan interprets certaind ocuments providedby theMinister of Health in Madam Speaker, how can you decide anything else one way and the minister interprets those same other than the fact that in the desperation this documents in a different way-[intetjection] And, in fact, government is facing now, to try and defend an the member for Thompson has just said, we have not indefensible position that the Minister of Health has providedany evidence at all. Inhis ownwords, he said, made numerous statements on the public record and we have provided no evidence. statementsin thisHouse which have misledthe members of this Legislature and the general public. That is the Apartfrom that, if they interpret informationcontained i:ssue. Theminister has misled the public. in a document in oneway and theminister interprets that in a different way, thatis not a breach of privilege. Our Madam Speaker, we are raising this today not out of own rules say, on page 76: "But a dispute arising any sense of bringing merely a technicalmatter. If this betweentwo members as to allegationsof facts does not matter of privilege does nothing more than make the fulfill theconditions of parliamentaryprivilege." 1076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
MadamSpeaker, upon looking and reading in Hansard and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider all of the comments that have been made here this reversing their plan to privatize home careservices. afternoon, you will easily determine, I think, that it is a disputeover the filets. It is not a question of privilege at * (1400) all,and so I commendruling this to you and no doubt we will hear back from you in due course. READING ANDRECEIVING PETITIONS Home Care Services Madam Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. I amgoing totake this matter under advisement Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petiti1Jn of the to consult the authorities and will return to the House honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It witha ruling. complies with the rules and the practices of the House (by leave). Is it the willof the House to have the:petition read? ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS - PRESENTING PETITIONS An Honourable Member: Yes. Home Care Services Madam Speaker: The Clerkwill read. Mr.Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Modesto B. Aguirre, Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the Vivencia Aguirre, Bernice Gorre and others requesting undersignedcitizens of theprovince of Manitoba humbly the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health sheweth: (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatizehome care services. THAT on at least six occasions during tne 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker,I beg to present the petition of L. Podheiser, P. THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to :privatize Becker, M. Cardwell and othersrequesting the Premier home care servicespresented was to Treaswy Boar� and and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. THATthis plan calls fa thecomplete divestitlllfe of all servicedelivery to nongov ernment organizations, mainly Mr.Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I private for-profit companies as well as the begto present the petitionof RobSandhu, Greg Manson, implementationof a user-paysystem of home<:are; and Peter Ahi and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to THAT previous cuts to theHome Care program have privatizehome care services. resulted in servicesbeing cut andpeople's health being compromised; and Seasonal CampingFees THAT thousands of caringfront-line serviceproviders Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and begto present the petition of AngieToner, CaraKuzma, Linda Guerra and others urging the provincial THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital government not to increase seasonal camping fees by health services. such a large amount. WHEREFORE your petitioners humblypray thatthe Home Care Services Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of to resenp t the petitionof BrendaTaylor, ShenyKippen, Health (Mr. McCrae) to considerreversing their plan to andCarol Buquing requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) privatize home care services. April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1077
Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It theprovince of Manitoba humbly sheweth: complieswith the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut Some Honourable Members: Yes. health.services; and
Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services waspresented to Treasury Board; and Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT thisplan calls fortb.e complete divestiture of all servicedelivery to nongov ernment organizations, mainly THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 private for-profit companies as well as tb.e provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and health services; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize resulted in services being cut and people'shealth being home careservices waspresented to Treasury Board; and compromised; and
THAT thisplan calls for the complete divestiture of all THAT tb.ousands of caringfront-line service providers service delivexyto nong overnment organizations, mainly will lose theirjobs as a result of this change; and private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT profit has no place in tb.e provision of vital health. services.
THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the resulted in services being cut and people's health being Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to compromised; and request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and tb.e Minister of Health.(Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing theirplan to THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers privatize home care services. will lose theirjobs as a result of this change; and Madam Speaker: I have reviewed tb.e petition oftb.e THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). It health services. complieswith. tb.e rules and practices of the House. Is it tb.ewill of the House to have the petitionread? WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly praythat the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to An Honourable Member: Yes. request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to Madam Speaker: Yes. TheClerk willread. privatize home care services.
Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of Madam Speaker: I have reviewed thepetition of the tb.eprovince of Manitoba humbly shewetb.: honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it THAT on at least six occasions during tb.e 1995 th.e will of the House to have the petition read? provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health.services; and Some Honourable Members: Yes.
· THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk willread. home care services waspresented to Treasury Board; and 1078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
TIIAT thisplan calls for the complete divestiture of all Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents servicedelivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly the following as its First Report. private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and Your committee met on Friday, April 19, 1996, at 10 a.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to TIIAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have consider the Public Accounts, Volumes 1, 2 and3 for resulted in services being cut and people's health being the fiscal year ended March 31, 1994; th.� Public compromised; and Accounts, Volumes 1, 2 and3 for the fiscalyear ended March 31, 1995; the Provincial Auditor's Report for TIIAT thousands of caringfront-line service providers the fiscal year ended March 31, 1994; and the will lose theirjobs as a result of this change; and Provincial Auditor's Report for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1995, Volumes 1, 2 and3. THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. Your committeereceived allinformation desiredby any - member at the meeting from the Minister of Finance WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly praythat the and from Mr. Wa"en Johnson, Acting Provincial Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to Auditor. Information was provided with respect to the request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of receipts, expenditures and other matters pertaining to Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to the business of the province. privatize home care services. Your committeefinds that the receipts andexpenditures
* (1410) of the monies have been carefo//y set forth and all monies properly accounted for. PRESENTINGREPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Your committee has considered the Public Accounts, Volumes 1, 2 andfor 3 thefiscal year endedMarch 31, Committee of Supply 1994, and Provincialthe Auditor's Reportfor lhe fiscal year endedMarch 31, 1994, andhas adopted .the same Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of as presented. Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to Mr.Sa ntos: Madam Speaker, I move, seconci:xlby the report the same and asksleave to sit again. honomablemember for PointDouglas (Mr. Hickes), that the report of the committee be received. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Riel (Mr. Newman), that the report of the committee be Motion agreed to. received. �TERIAL STATEMENTS Motion agreed to. Flooding and DisasterAssi stance Standing Committee on Public Accounts Bon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Gov,emment First Report Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statemeJtlt for the Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson of the Standing House. Committee on Public Accounts): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Aswe know, flooding is taking place over v.ideareas Public Accounts. of southern Manitoba. Earlier today, the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Driedger) and I flew by helicopter over flood-stricken areasSt. between Jean Baptiste and Selkirk. We landed Madam Speaker: Dispense. in Selkirk and Morris. In both towns, we met with April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1079 officialsfrom area mu nicipalities and werebri efed on the Andrews, there was a very, very serious situation with situationsin their conununities. On Friday, I also visited the high water level, the flooding and much damage to and toured flood-threatened sites in central Manitoba. property. Fortunately, there wasno loss of life.
Madam Speaker, it is a very humbling experience to Madam Speaker, I received many calls over the see the power of nature as evidenced by the immense weekend at my home and the area residents were flow of waterthrough our province. Atthe same time, it concernedabout a nmnberof issues, or two in particular. i:s heartwarmingto see how Manitobans arepitching in One was they were encouraging me to encourage the to help their neighbours and communities to prevent government to blast the ice upstream from Selkirk, but I flooding of homes and to rescue precious possessions. do agreewith the government that thiswould have been My colleagues and I have been particularly impressed both futile and dangerous. The other issue that was by the dedicated efforts of volunteers in the raised was the opening of the floodway in the Lockport municipalities in flood-threatened areas. From school area, wherethe floodwayjoins the Red in Lockport, and c:hildren toretired people, we have seen and heard about there was concern that this may have compounded the the sandbagging and other vital work they have done to damage to our area. However, after talking with prepare for highwater and defend their homes and their government officials and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) this c:onununities. Onbehalf of the government, I would like morning,and the Minister of Government Services (Mr. to commendand thank for them taking time off work and Pallister) and the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. their leisure activities tohelp theircommunities and their Driedger), I am convinced that their response was a neighbours. correct one. I would also like to thankthe mun icipalities for their Madam Speaker, I would just like to encourage the swift, efficient mobilization of resources to prepare for governmentto keepthe public informedon this issue, as nooding. Thanksto their efforts, communities arein a well to work with the fed eral government in a very position to respond to fo recasted flooding and take aggressive manner to resolve the outstanding disputes additional steps as are necessary. Madam Speaker, the overthe cost-sharingwi1h 1he R.M.s. I know that was an government believes the flooding situation fa cing us in issue that was raised this morning at their meeting, and Manitoba is of sufficient gravity and potential effect to I am pleased that the minister has written a letter. I warrantfed eral assistance under disaster provisions and encourage theminister to meet withthe fe deral minister agreements. as soon as possible to get this issue solved. I would like to inform the House, Madam Speaker, 1haton behalf of Manitoba I have written to the Minister Madam Speaker, :finally, on behalf of all members responsible forEmergency Preparedness, the Honourable here, I just hope and wish thatthe worst is behind us in David Collenette, to request fe deral recognitionthat our this area. Thankyou very much. situation warrants disaster funding to assist our provincial flood control efforts. We are hoping for and TABLING OF REPORTS lmticipating a positive federal response. In the meantime, we will continue to mount a co-ordinated Bon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Madam response to the flood threat backed by the efforts of the Speaker, I have the pleasure to table the 1995 Annual ManitobaEmergency Measures Organization, Manitoba Reportof1he Workers CompensationBoard of Manitoba Natural Resources and other government departments, and Appeal Commission, as well as the 1996-97 affectedmu nicipalities and volunteers. Manitoba LabourEstimates.
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, on INTRODUCTION OF BILLS behalf of my colleagues, I would just like to respond to 1he minister's statement. Bill 3-The Surface Rights Amendment Act Madam Speaker, this past weekend, in the town of Bon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Selkirk, in the R.M. of St. Clements, in the R.M. of St. Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by 1080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 the Minister of Highways andTransportation (Mr. to introduce Bill 8, The Chiropodists Amendment Act Findlay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 3, The (Loimodifiant Ia Loi sur les chiropodistes), and that the Surface Rights Amendment(Loi Act modifiant IaLoi sur same benow received and read a first time. les droitsde surface), andthat the samebe now received and read a firsttime. Motion agreed to.
Motion agreed to. Bill 4-The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act Bill 5-The Horticultural Society RepealAct Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged ·with the administration of The Manitoba Public hnsurance Transportation): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded CorporationAct): I move, seconded by the Ministerof bythe Minister of RuralDevelopment (Mr. Derkach), on behalf of the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Finance (Mr. Stefansnn),that leave be given tointroduce Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 5, The Bill 4, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment (Loi modifiant Loi sur Societe Horticultural Society Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant Ia Loi Act Ia ht d'assurancepubli quedu Manitoba), andthat the same be sur les associations horticoles), and that the same be now receivedand readfirst a time. now received andread first a time.
Motion agreed to. Motion agreedto.
Introduction of Guests Bill 6-The VeterinaryScience Scholarship Fund Amendment Act Madam Speaker: Priorto Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and all public gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Transportation): Onbehalf of the honourable Minister twenty-two Grade 9 students from Linden Christian of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), I move, seconded by the School under the direction of Mr. Rempel. This school Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), that leave be is located in the constituency of the honoura1ble First given to introduce Bill 6, The Veterinary Science Minister (Mr. Filmon). Scholarship FundAmendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi surle Fonds des bourses d'etudes veterinaires), and that Onbehalf of allhonourable members, wekomeI you the same be now received and read a first time. this afternoon. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Bill 7-The Medical Amendment Act Home CareProgram Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Privatization-Public Hearings Speaker, I move, secondedby thehonourable Ministerof Mr. Gary Doer (Leaderof the Opposition): Madam Industry, Trade andTourism (Mr. Downey), that leave be Speaker, my question isto theFirst Minister. given to introduce Bill 7, The Medical Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi medicale), and that the same be People from across this province came before the now received and read a first time. Legislature today to talk about their desirl� for the government to put on hold their plans to privatize and Motion agreed to. have profit in the home care system here in Manitoba. They spoke very strongly about their beliefs in the Bill 8-The Chiropodists Amendment Act existingJ:xme care system,thehome care systemthat has Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam been built in Manitoba by Manitobans. Th.ey talked Speaker, I move,seconded by the honourable Minis�of about the dignity of home care, the independe11cein our Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be gtven community that home care provides and they talked !4>ril 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1081 a•bout the fact, Madam Speaker, that they were not I want to table a letter from the Manitoba seniors involved in the original decision of the government organization, a letter sent to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) opposite to proceed with the privatization plan. They and Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) today. Again it ver.yclearly want to beinvolved in a decisionthat affects amplifies theposition that Manitoba seniors have taken them so directly, and clients from across this province all along, in their earlier letter where they asked this want the government to put their plans of privatization government to put on hold their plans andhave public on hold. Infact, theysaid that Jim McCrae andWe Care meetings. They have asked this government to put on is on one side and, to quote correctly, the rest of hold plans that will affect their daily lives. They have Manitobans are on theother side. said tothe go vennnent, stop the betrayal of your election promisesto the people who built thisprovince. They go Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier to on to sayin theirletter, we needcontinuity of care in our involve the clients of home care in the decisions that system and the privateprofit system being proposed by government is proceeding with, put on hold their plans thegovernment would notgive us thatcontinuity of care. to privatizeand introduce profit in our home care system and call on public hearings as asked for by the many, Will this Premier now put on hold what speakers many clients who were in front of theLegislature here called today therevolving-door model of home care, as today. proposed by the Filmon government with this profit ideology? Put it on hold and have public hearings. Let :Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the thepeople speak out about what their vision is for profit issue hereis that we must be able to assure that services or nonprofit in home care. will be provided when services are required and to the best possible standards that the people expect of us in Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the preamble of that home care. That is why we have more than doubled the question was spoken like a true union boss, which is budget for home care since we have beenin office; that exactly what theLeader of the Opposition is. He does iswhy we continue to add fimding so thatwe canprovide not knowthat he has a responsibilityto thepeople who for allof theneeds of all of the people who depend upon are in need. He does not know that he has a home care. responsibility to all Manitobans. He only has a responsibility to his union boss friends because he still We only need to look at the current circumstances to thinks he is one. That is his problem. know that ifwe arein a position of having a monopoly deliverance of service, people who want to get into an MadamSpeaker, we are with thepeople who need the argumentover allsorts of issues will arbitrarily withdraw services. We are with the people who want to get an their services fromthe people who needthem most, and essential services agreement, not with the members wecmm ot tolerate that situation. We needa system that oppositewho want to denythem their services, who want providesthe services on an absolutely guaranteedbasis, to use them as pawns in an ideological struggle where on an assurance for theirneeds, not in theway in which they stand shoulder to shoulder with their union boss it is donetoday so thatpeople who require the most, the friends. peoplewho are most vulnerable are put at risk, are made Mr. to feel vulnerable because some people for their own Doer: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question. purposes, union bosses, will arbitrarily withdraw the services andput themat risk. This letter came from the Manitoba seniors. This Premierhad the gall to say in the electioncampaign that * (1420) we must respect the people that built this province. Madam Speaker, some respectfrom some Premier who Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, for 22 years we had a is breaking every promise he made. system that had no disruptions until this government proceeded with profit and privatization. There is the personresponsible for this dispute, rightthere, across the Now theManitoba seniors, one of four groups that use way. Those are not my words. Those were the clients home care, clients thatwere there today-the Premier can thatwere speaking today at that rally at noon. foam at the mouth andtry to create blame where blame 1082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April22, 1996
does not exist, but these are the people that use home I will tell the honourable member, Madam Speaker, care. TheManitoba seniors today said thatthey want the thathe what andhis areLeader doing today is 1reflecting government to put their ideological privatization profit the mentality of those union leaders who first <:onduct a plans on hold and have public hearings. The seniors strike vote and then do not even show up for good-faith today said they want thegov ernment to stop the radical negotiations on how to get services providc:d to the ideology and listen to the seniors. people who need it in this province.
I am just asking the Premier a very simple question: Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary to the Minister of Will heput his ideology on hold, involve the clients and Health: Can the Minister of Health explain StJmething stop the privatization plan until we have had public that he has never been able to explain? He has talked hearings across this province? Listen to the people. aboutdocmnents that say"all" or "out" andthat there is confusion about the government's privatization. Why Mr. Filmon: MadamSpeaker, the only people who are does the minister's plan, his Treasury Board document, being blinded by ideology are the Leader of the the document he signed off, the document th�: Premier Opposition and his colleagues and their union boss approved, say,divestitme of all service delivery? It does friends. They are the only ones whohave said that this not saysane . It does not say part. It says divestiture of is pmeideology. From ourve, perspecti it is pureservice all service delivery. to the people who need it most, when theyneed it, how they need it, in the best possible delivery mechanism, Whydid youpropose the proposal, privatization of all with alternatives and with competition in the system to services? ensure that never again will they be held hostage to the Leader of the Opposition and his ideologically bound Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has to union boss friends to ensure that they have their needs acknowledge thatnothing that he has brought fbrward is met. at odds in any way with the position taken by his friends ernm Home CareProgram at the leadership levels of the Manitoba Gov ent Employees' Union. Privatization
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): From the Premier's If there is one thing the honourable mtmiber is comments, it is pretty evident what is wrong in this consistent about, it is his slavish support for tb.e senior debate. This government and this Premier is not willing levels of the union movement in this province, Madam to listen to anybody andis prepared to blame everybody Speaker. but himself with regard to this problem. Thehonourable member refers to privatization, which Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier, who has been in existence since the beginning of the talked about monopoly. Can the Premier explain how government's involvement in the Home Care program. dividing up the city of Winnipeg into four areas and givingmonopolies to fourprivate companies is somehow Madam Speaker, the Victorian Order of Nurses is a going to improve the quality of care and home care private,non-profit organization that has beendc,ing work delivery in the city of Winnipeg? under theHome Care program without tender for years. It is time for some competition, very simply, in order to Bon. James McCrae (Ministerof Health): Madam make sure that we are getting the right price, the right Speaker, this government has demonstrated its effectiveness, theright effi ciency, the right scheduling for commitmentto the people who need home care services home care services. Thehonourable member ils against in this province. Over the last eight years we have allthat. He has made thatclear. increased funding for that program by more than 100 percent, way, way more than anything the honourable In their approach, which is to say that they reject a member's colleagues ever dreamed that they would put report that they must have paid millions of dollars for, into a home care program for the seniors and others in Madam Speaker, their position becomes very, very our province who need those services. shallow indeed. 1083 �:\pril 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA
which was commissioned by the NDP, it seems rather t (1430) apparent that those things are possible. The NDP :Mr. Cbomiak: My finalsupplementary to theminister: commissioned report suggests user fe es and cuts in Can the Minister of Health and the Premier, or perhaps services. Does the honourable member need anything the Premier, who are unable to respond to the seniors or else fo r ananswer? .anyone in Manitoba, can they finally answer fo r the people ofManitoba whythey have proposed, not only for monopolies tobe set up in the city of Winnipeg and that Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the government VON lose the contract, but that allthe nursing service acknowledge that it is privatizing home care precisely hasto be privatized by this government, with respect to becausethey know that home care is outside the Canada privatizationpolicy? Why willyou not defend your own Health Act? They can further oftload costs on the policy? consumers, on vulnerable senior Manitobans. Is that why they are privatizing? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, all you have to do is readthe NDP -commissioned Price Waterhouse reportto Mr. McCrae: MadamSpeaker, the honourable member know that ifthey had not been thrown out of office in hasjust defeated his own argument. He talks about four 1988, seniorswould likely be paying user fee s today and monopolies in the city ofWinnipeg. Well, the lasttime having their services cut. I checked, when you have to tender and compete for the work, that is not a monopoly, and the honourable Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister, who member wants to talkabout four of them. It is outright absolutely refuses to answer this question, then finally nonsense what he is talking today and does not help his table legislation to bring home care under the Canada case one bit. Health Act as a fully funded service, so that Manitobans canbe sure that user-pay will not become the order of the Home Care Program day under his government? Canada Health Act Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, one of the reasons the Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the New DemocratsPawley under and Doer were thrown out Manitoba Societyof Seniors and the representatives of of government in this province was that they had no the network of retirees are not union bosses. They are sense of the reality of that day, nor do they have any retired citizens who have built this province. They met sense of the reality of today. with the Minister of Health to express their concern about privatization, and they write, no evidence that the present home care system is not effective has been One of the realities is that under all of the difficult submitted. Quite to the contrary, they write, experts in circumstances governments everywhere in this country the field have praised Manitoba's home care system as are facing, in Manitoba the budget for home care has the best model in North America, and they say that more than doubled in the last eightyears . Honourable privatization is the thin edge of the wedge in the members opposite have not embraced one idea in the last destruction medicareof . eight years this government has been in office that we have brought forward. Madam Speaker, my question for the Minister of Health is, will the government acknowledge that home Theyare opposed to living within our means. Madam care, which isnot covered under the Canada Health Act, Speaker, that says it all. That tells us the whole canbe completely deinsured, become a user-pay system differencebetween 1he New Democrats and anybody else without breaking that Canada Health Act? Will you in existence today; most of the people in this world acknowledge that? recognizethat living withinyour means is something you might want to consider. We are committed to it, but at Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam the same time, funding for home care doubles in eight Speaker, if you look at the Price Waterhouse report, years. Does that not say something about the priorities 1084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 of this government which faroutshadow the priorities of Will he not, in the faceof allthe response thatwe are the honourable members opposite? getting from the people of Manitoba, adllllit this government madea mistake and stop the privatization of Home Care Program home care? Privatization Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): This minister better Speaker, when I see the tactics to which ho11ourable not lecture us on being thrown out of officebecau se that membersopposite will stoop to in a situation like this, I isexactly what happenwill to this government ifthey do ammae than convinced thatthere is absol utely nothing not stop their attacks on home care and health care. in any argument they make. They have absolutely no caseto make for the patients and the clients of the home I would like to ask a question to the Premier (Mr. care system in Manitoba when they turntheir backs on Filmon). I amreminded of ihe fab le about the emperor people who have Alzheimer's disease, Parilcinson's who hasno clothes, because everybody in this province disease, severe arthritis, multiple sclerosis, and 1refuse to - knows that the government is making a mistake by agree that they should get essential services. These privatizing home care except the government itself honourable members have nothing to say about home
care. I would like to ask the Premier one very simple question: Will he not listen to thepeople of Manitoba * (1440) andparticularly the clients of home care, admit he made a mistakewithdraw and the disastrousplans to privatize Home CareProgram home care? Privatization
Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I can Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam :Speaker, assure the member opposite that we will continually myquestioo isfo r the Premier or the Minister oJf Health, learn from their mistakes because they continue to make whomever chooses to answerthe question, I gw�s. The many, many mistakes by backing people who will not question quite simply isthat over the lastnumb er of days provide essential services for the most vulnerable in as anopposition party wehave attempted to get specific society who needtheir assistance, who need their service information from the government. The question put through home care. They of course will not see those quite simply is: Inthinking of the clients, could either services provided In fact, they cheer them on in keeping the Minister ofHealth or the Premier indicate to, us what the services away from them because they do not believe specific recommendation or specific reportsuggests or in serving the needs of the people. All of their hintsthe that privatizati onof home care services is going rhetoric-we will continue to learn from their mistakes. to be in the bestinterests of the client?
MadamSpeaker, we are here to provide theassurance Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam to the people who need home care thatthey will always Speaker, last year when the best interests of the client get it, thatwill they never have that home care withdrawn required that there be some backup service available arbitrarily because they have put some people in a whenregular staff were oovacation or when reglllar staff monopoly position who willuse it fo r their own political called in sick, it was fe lt that to let a contrac1t for that pmposes. We willassure people that they will always be backup service would be the thing to do, and I did not served when they need it, how they need it and to the hearfrom anything honourab the le member fo r Inkster at standards that they expect. that time. Tenders were let and a private company was the successful bidder, and now we are able tCI provide Mr. Ashton: I will try once again. Will the First betterservices fo r our clients. Ministeradmit today that there are no obj ective studies, no obj ective reports, no recommendations pointing to AnHonourable Member: botched They it thefirst fe w any advantages fo r the privatization of home care? weeks. April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1085
Mr. McCrae: The honourable member fo r Kildonan Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of (Mr. Chomiak) talks about something having been Health iswrong. We arebehind the clients, not the New botched. He should go and have a little head to head Democrats, quite frankly. with Peter Olfert, who is the head of the Manitoba Government Employees' Union who spoke very highly Will the Minister of Health then indicate to the of that particular program. Chamber, is the Minister of Health in his full-speed ahead privatization of home care services prepared to Even though it is contracted out-it is a private fo r give consideration to establishing in the criteria a profit company that got the contract-Peter Olfert, as minimum salarywage fo r home care service workers? reportedin the pages of the Winnipeg Free Press, spoke very highly of that particular program. Later on, it was Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, it is one thing to say ielt thatintravenous therapy, expansion of that service at you are behind the clients, and it is another thing to be St. Boniface Hospital, would be appropriate. That was behind the clients. Ifthe honourab le member is behind tendered out and, in this case, the Victorian Order of the clients, why has he not stood to his fe et to demand Nurses won that particular contract. that ifthe union bosses and their NDP friends insist on being on strike, why will they not provide essential Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would appeal to services to certain Manitobans who desperately need the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to answer this question: them? :Specifically,what recommendation did this government, did this Premier and cabinet, take into consideration in Madam Speaker: Order, please. deciding to privatize home care services? Point of Order Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, there are numerous Mr.Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, :recommendations, numerous studies, reports, most of Beauchesne's is fairly clear and indicates that answers to which, if not all, have now been made available to the questions should be somewhat relevant. If the honourable members. The honourable member fo r minister does not want to answer the question, he does Inkster has acknowledged himself that he has not read not have to answer the question. He could fo llow the them all. There is so much information fo r the lead that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) took in refusing to honourable member, he has only to read it. answer a question that I posed.
The issue is not who delivers the service but that the Madam Speaker, I would request the Minister of services are delivered, and that there are quality issues Health to answer the specific question that was posed to properly dealt with, thatstandards are observed or met or him,and ifhe did not want to answerthe question, then exceeded. Those are the kinds of things that all the do not bother standing up. studies talkabout Infilet, allof the reports do not really come out specifically one way or another in terms of MadamSpeaker: Order, please. Onthe point of order, service delivery, because as honourable members know, the honourable member for Inkster does have a point of including the honourable member fo r Inkster, without order. I would remind the honourable minister that his tender, theVictorian Order ofNurses has been providing response should be relevant to the question. on a contracted basis fo r a long, long time nursing services under the Home Care program. Business Advisory Board Appointments
So the honourable member fo r Inkster who is a Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, Liberal-usuallyLiberals cango one way or the other and recentlythe Minister of Education established a business on thisone they have chosen to lhrow in their lot with the advisory group to, quote: play a pivotal role in fo rging NDP. They will regret that one, I cantell you. dynamic partnerships between education and business. 1086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Could theminister explain thereasons for the selection typespeople of who recognize and applaud publicly her ofBev McMaster ofWe Care home care for a committee distinctions in the marketplace. whose role is to ensure that, I quote: business interests are reflected in the implementation of educational Lottery Revenues renewal in Manitoba? Child Daycare Centres
Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker,question my isfor the Ministerresponsible for Training): Madam Speaker, we are attempting, in Lotteries. establishinga business advisory committee, to make sure thatas we lookat emerging sectors in society, we look at The minister should know that Manitoba nonprofit the areasof societythat are requiring increased emphasis community daycares have been excluded from receiving because society is moving in a certain way. anylottery fimds , including activities such as fundraising bingos. Daycaresreceived lottery funding starting in '88 We know the home care field, for example, as we under the NDP government and continued up to '92, - move from high-cost, acute-care hospital institutional reaching as high as $1.1 million in 1990 and averaging care to personal care or to home care, that we require $750,000 during that time. Since then, daycares have advice on the types of situations people are fa cing and received just $16,000 in the past three years, 1two years the typetraining of then that educational institutions will with no grant at all. have to put in place to provide workers trainedthose in areas in a wide variety of sectors. My questioo to the Ministerresponsible fo r Lotteri�s : Will theminister tell Manitobans ifhis government will Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain why this reinstate funding fo r the nonprofit, community-run committeehas norepresenta tion from strategic economic daycares from his ever-increasing lottery revenues? sectors such as agribusiness, telecommunications, the energy sector, mining, andtransport, and yet the minister Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged ·with the points to this as an emerging sector of Manitoba administration of The Manitoba ]Lotteries education? CorporationAct) : Madam Speaker, without ;llCCepting any of the preamble, I know there areoppo� lllities f� r Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, we do have on that daycare associations through our commumty council committee a wide variety of organizations and groups program, through our Community Places Program and that represent skills and talents that are transferable or other vehicles that do provide funding. _111lere Is a that have expertise in certain kindsof businesses. We process that all organizations go through in terms �f have, fo r example, the Manitoba Federation of _ requesting whetherit is bingo events or other licences m Independent Business. We also have people who are tenns of charitable undertakings, and certainlythey have involved in working in very large complex businesses the opportunity to go through that process as well with thatuse kindscertain of technology and computerization the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. that are applicable not just in one industry but many. * (1450) We also seek to ensure that we have high-quality people and good gender representation. The person she Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I would be glad to spoke of earlier, Bev McMaster, is recognized right provide the annual statement- across the country. She is an award-winning entrepreneur who, aftera fe w years in business,. has been Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable recognized andgiven awards of distinction fo r quality member fo r St. James was recognized tCI pose a care one business award that she won. Entrepreneur of supplementary question. the 'Year is another award that she won. She was nominated fo r the Women of Distinction Award and a Ms.Mihychuk: Will the ministerreview the practice of wide variety of other things. So she has a very high excluding nonprofit daycares from fundraising reputation for credibilitywith the YWCA, YMCA, those opportunities like bingos, in the name of fairness? 1087 April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I believe our support the nine budgets that they have now voted against, they fo r daycares here in Manitoba is literally second to none would find that our support fo r the arts and cultural right across Canada. We have already outlined very community and the entertainment industry, again, has clearly for the member that there is a series of vehicles been second to none, Madam Speaker. There are and avenues available fo r daycare organizations and continuing opportunities, and there will be continuing there are opportunities to apply through the Manitoba opportunities fo r Manitoba artists, musicians and Lotteries Corporation. entertainment at these facilities.
Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask Gambling Facilities the Minister for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship ifhe Local Entertainment willintercede with his colleague the Minister of Lotteries (Mr. Stefanson) and work to reverse this doubly Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, damaging decision which would fa vour robotic music rumomhas it thatthe Minister responsible for Lotteries- over real music and would deprive local musicians of employment opportunities. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Madam Speaker: Order, please. Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I truly look fo rwardto getting into the Estimates process so we Ms. McGifford: I will rephrase my question. It has cango into a lot of detail about how our cultural budget been reportedthat the Minister responsible fo r Lotteries, supports individuals in this province. Infa ct, I was on not satisfied with the stupefYing effects of VLTs, now the same platform as the member for Brandon East (Mr. plans to import robotic music into casinos. Decisions Leonard Evans) onSaturday, and he knows :full well that like these insult Manitoba culture and local musicians the Brandon community applauded the government fo r and deprive local Manitoba musicians of gainful theamount of money spent on thejuried art show. I did c::mployment. This idea is bad cultural policy and crazy note, though, that the member fo r Brandon East said, we economics. should spend more, but that particular group was quite happy. I would like to askthe Minister fo r Lotteries to explain to the House and to local musicians his preference fo r I would refer honourable members to an item in the prepackaged mechanical mindlessness over real music Toronto Globe and Mailsaid, that Manitoba should have ;md real jobs fo r real Manitobans. a standingovation fo r its tremendous support of the arts community. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the :a.dministration of The Manitoba Lotteries Domtar Site Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the member fo r Cleanup Proposal Osborne maybe an expertin terms of marketing of what :isrequired atour entertainment fa cilities. I certainly am Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): MadamSpeaker, :not. I think she is :fully aware that there is an my questions are for the Minister of Environment. independent boardof our various Crown corporations as thereis with the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. There This government has yet another proposal from is a management structure that makes decisions on an Domtar to clean up its contaminated site in Transcona. ,llngoing basis in terms of what they need to do to It hascome :full circle, and they are again proposing on ,:;nnrim:.eto attractindividuals and make the facilities an site capping andstorage . A Department of Environment ,entertainingfor place individuals to attend at. contaminatedsites expert, in response to the company's proposal, haswritten: All ofthe highly impacted soils But I do want to assure her that we do share the mustbe excavated and removed fromthe Transcona site concern about live entertainment and opportunities fo r toremove all of the futurecon cerns of potential risks and Manitobanmusicians . I thinkif the NDP looked back at liabilities. 1088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
He goes onto recommendthat they not provide a level information to genuinely concerned members and then of support for this proposal. have it stuffed back in your ear in Question Period.
I want to ask the minister how the government is MadamSpeaker, I want to indicate very clearlythat it responding to this proposal, given therecommendation is my intention to do everything possible to make sure of its own contaminated sites expert. that thatcommunity is adequately protected.
Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, obviously the member would like to Point of Order negotiate in this Chamber how remediation ofthis long Ms. Cerilli: a pointof order, I would ask you to call contaminated site should be handled. On the ministerto order, Madam Speaker. Ifhe is making reference to the material or the information or the We aretaking allinf ormation andusing it to the best questions I ask in the House, I am doing m.y job in advantage of the cleanup of the site, and we want to representing the constituents of Radisson who have make sure that we involve the local community in the elected me. decision-making process. I hope thather obj ective is to proceed in thatmann er because it is my understanding Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable that the local citizens may have, or should in filethave, member for Radisson does not have a point of order. It a great deal to say about the type of remediation that is is clearly a dispute over the facts. put in place.
* Ms. Cerilli: I would like to ask a supplementary (1500) question, get in with the innuendo in a moment. Manitoba Junior Hockey League Isit the opinion or the position of the government that Championships this on-site remediation would trigger legislation on hazardous waste disposal grounds which would Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek) : I have a disqualify this proposal only on the grounds of the question for the Minister of Environment. Madam proximity to housing-not only on those grounds but on Speaker, I know the Minister of Environment has no many others? control over theweather which we have beenhaving over
thelast little while, but I do recognize onthis side of the - Mr. Cummings: MadamSpeaker, the member says she House how popular and how proud we ar,e of the wants to avoid the innuendo. Perhaps she should constituencies andthe communities thatwe represent. respond directly to the question then, in her next question, about what her thoughts areabout whether or I would like to ask the Minister of Environment for not thepeople in the community should have something what reasonhe wears the sweater in the Chamber today to do, or does she want to make this settled politically? and how he came by achieving thatter swea and why he wears it so proudly in the House today. I would like to Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, my third question fo r the have the minister share that with the House today. mm1ster is: What is his position, what is the government's position, with regardto this proposal and Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister ofEnvironment): legislation and regulation on hazardous waste disposal? MadamSpeaker, in myenthusiasm for the support of the This facility will be too close- Manitoba Junior Hockey League, I said that I would wear the sweater of the winning team and that team is Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has proudly supportedby mycolleague from Sturgeon Creek. been put. I would like to add my congratulations to the St. James Canadians in their outstanding victory and wish them Mr. Cummings: MadamSpeaker, this speaks volumes well in the competition wherethey are presently engaging to how it is so difficult in this House to provide the champions to the west. .April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1089
BFI Landfill Site matters reported in the media or statements by Ministers Minister's Position outside the House or 'certain questions regarding government policy."'
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Last weekthe city * * * began a campaign to have Winnipeg residents call the government urging the Minister of Environment not to Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of give Browning Ferris Industries a licence to build an Environment, to respond to the question. f:nvironmentally unfriendly, economically unnecessary landfill site in Rosser. Bon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, very clearly, any licence that this Will the Minister of Environment please explain his organization is seeking as a director's licence, as (:omments in the Free Press several days ago, how the Minister of Environment I amthe appeal to that licence. city and its residents are "inviting political interference" It is certainlyintention my not to bedef ending in advance by sharing their legitimate concernswith the minister. of the director having made a decision of what that decision might be. Point of Order
Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has JIIon. Jim Ernst (Government Bouse Leader): expired. MadamSpeaker, on a point of order, any memberof the Houseshould not be called upon to answer questions on MEMBERS' STATEMENTS their statements made outside the House or statements referred to in a newspaper report, of all things. That Home Care Services question is clearly out of order. Mr. BenSveinson (LaVerendrye): Madam Speaker, Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition Bouse Leader): On I am concerned aboutthe attempts to scare Manitobans the same point of order, Madam Speaker, it is quite with regardto home care. There are no changes to home ,common for members of the House to use a variety of carein ruralManitoba, andwe are looking at introducing sources, including media reports, but the questionwas , competition for 25 percent of services in Winnipeg. In in itself, most definitely in order in asking about the spite of that, I hold in my hand some propaganda that question of political interference, and I suggest that you was being distributed in Ste. Anne over the weekend not only rule in order but ask the minister to respond to which I now table. it. I am shocked and dismayed at the tactics being used. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House This is fe armongering propaganda at its worst, and it leader, on the same point of order. must be stopped. Listen to what rural Manitobans are beingtold I quote: Your government's documents show Mr. Ernst: When I was on my fee t earlier, I did not that all hands-on care including nursing care is to be have the direct quote from Beauchesne, but I could contractedout to private for-profit agencies. Further, all provide it to you now: Beauchesne's Citation 409.(10): care is to be contracted out. "A question ought not to refer to a statement made outside the House by a Minister." Quite clear, Madam This is absolutely untrue. In addition to the fa ct that Speaker. rural Manitoba is unaffected and 25 percent of Winnipeg's service is affected, but you would never Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order, know that from these documents which are misleading I would draw to the attention of the honourable and do a disservice to recipients of home care by not government House leader that Beauchesne Citation providing the facts. There are no changes to home care 410.(2) supersedes Citation 409. (10). It reads, "While in ruralManitoba andyet these papers handed out in Ste. some previous guidelines remainvalid, others have fa llen Annehave clearlyshown thereis nothing sacredto those into disuse, e.g. that it is out of order to ask about who want to scareManitob ans into believing untruths. 1090 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1996
A petition was attached which said that plans to Mr. Mackintosh: Thankyou, Madam Speaker. privatize home care services calls fo r, and Iquote again, the complete divestiture of all service delivery to Ata time whenthe youth in this province, and I think nongovernment organizations of a user-pay system of particularly in thenorth endof Winnipeg, are getting a home care. bum rapand there generalizationsare being made about youth, itwas the youth of the schools of St. John's High No matter who delivers the home care service, the School, Joseph Wolinsky Collegiate, West Kildonan government will fully fund it as it does today. The Collegiate andGanien City Collegiate that came out and government believes in home care and are seeking to workedtirelessly fa the good of the community. Infact, make it as efficient as we can. Since we came to office manyof thesecame individuals back on Friday night and in 1988-89, thenumber of persons we served has risen again on Saturday. It speaks very highly of Manitoba by 11 percent. The amount of money we have allocated youth. for home care has risen by 111 percent, an increase of
$43 million. Thankyou, Madam Speaker. Finally, I want to pay tribute and acknowledge the - stressthat the residentshave underbeen on Scotia Street. Flooding-constituency of St. Johns We recognize how difficult the rising floodwaters have been for the residents and their families, fo r the threat Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, that it causes to their maj or investment and to their I want to make a statement regarding the flooding on property. Scotia Street in the constituency ofSt. Johns. I wantto pay tribute to particular individuals and organizations. I thinkthat flood the situationdemonstrates throughout all of Manitoba thatthis is the ultimate we-are-ail-in-it First of all, to all the businesses that contributed together situation; we have topull together. foodstuffsfo r the workers and the volunteers, I want to acknowledge the contributions of the IGA on Main I also wantpay to tribute, of course, to the individuals Street, and Mr. Hamel in particular, McDonald's on and the residents in places elsewhere in the city of Main Street, Extra Foods and Safeway, as well, Tim Winnipeg and throughout Manitoba. For example, in Horton at Sheppard and Inksterand Robin's Donuts on southT ransconawhere the Scouts and other youth came McPhillips. outand worked tirelessly for the good of the community as whole. Second of all, I want to pay tribute to the City of Winnipeg workers and, in particular, Mr. Tommy St. James Canadians Lamboo, who seemed to be everywhere all at once co ordinating matters with an evenhand. Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek) : Madam Speaker, I would like to extend congratulations today to Aswell, to thepeople who wereworking on contract. the players and coaches of the St. James Canadians who I am aware of bobcat operators, fo r example, who defeatedthe Neepawa Natives to winthe Ollie Turnbull worked from seven in the morning until midnight on Memorial Trophy. Thisoutstandi ng victory means that Friday. As well, the many friends who came out and the St. James Canadians will now go on to play the other people in thecommunity, but most important of all, Saskatchewanwinn ers, a teamfrom Melfort. at atime when the youthin Manitoba seemto be getting a bumrap and are being generalized- For games three,fo ur andfive of theAna vet Cup, the St. James Canadians willbe playing atthe Civic Centre * (1510) in Sturgeon Creek starting tomorrow, April 23, and playinguntil Thursday, April 25. I would like to extend Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing an invitation to all members of the House to come and difficulty hearing the honourable member fo r St. Johns. watch hockeythe fine which be will on displaythis week I wonder if those members having private meetings and especially would like to invite the memberfo r Ste. would do so either in the loge or outside the Chamber. Rose, the Honourable GlenCummi ngs, wearing No. 21 .April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1091
today of the St. James Canadians, to the games, and However, one ofthe most important thingsfo r some of judging by this beautiful St. James Canadiansje rsey, he us in this Chamber, as therural value-added task force, must be quite a fa n of this superb hockey team. of which Frank Pitura, MLA for Morris, and Merv Tweed, MLA fo r Turtle Mountain, and myself are Finally,would I like towish the playersand coaches of members o:( wasthe ability to present our interim report th.e St. James Canadians the best of luck during the to the fo rum. Inthat interim report, we indicate clearly l\navetCup . I am sure all members will join with me in thatwe were impressedby the participants of the1,200 congratulatingcoach Wayne Chernicki, Glen Harris and to 1,300-some-oddrural people who camefo rward with Brian Gaziuk,manager GunterLeuger and trainer Joanne ideas on how they wanted to add value to their products Hanson and all the players of the St. James Canadians in in rural Manitoba and therefore increase our capacity to a great season and wishthem well in the series against export finished products out of this province by $1 Melfort. A special thanks to Gary Bachinski of the billion. Canadiansfo r arrangingto get the Canadianssweater for the honourable member fo r Ste. Rose (Mr. Cwnmings) Therea was tremendous enthusiasmand receptiveness to wear in the Chamber today. Thankyou. towardthe provincial govermnent fo r having initiated the taskfo rce, and we were very pleasedto have been given Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam the opportunity to listen anddialogue withManitobans Speaker, I would like to add my congratulations to the about what should be done to enhance their ability to manyresidents ofSt James who take great pride and joy prove that they could, in fact, provide jobs fo r young at the performance and ultimately winning season people in manyof the townsin rural Manitoba. achievedby the St James Canadians hockey clubas they won the ManitobaJunior Hockey League Championship We were extremelyfortuna te to have beenparticipants J:orthe first time in over 28 years. inthat ventme, andwe thankthe rural fo rumfo r allowing us the time to present our report to that forum. Madam Speaker, this House is filled with members who understand that it is much more satisfying to win ORDERS OF THE DAY 1thanto lose, and I am sure that we can all agree on that. While I am happy that the St. James club was able to Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): I Jfight its way back from a three to one deficit in games to move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the honourable winthe championship series four to three, I also want to Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Madam 1:0nnnend theNeepawa Natives hockey club as a spirited Speaker do now leave the Chair andthe House resolve :md worthy contenderfor theTurnbull Memorial Trophy. itself into a Connnitteeto consider of the Supply to be I am sure we can all wish Coach Wayne Chernicki and granted to Her Majesty. allthe players of the St. James Canadians luck and best wishes as they advance to facetheir next opponents, the Motion agreed to, andthe Houseresolved itself into a Melfort Mustangs from Saskatchewan. committee to ofconsider theSupply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable memberfo r La Verendrye Thankyou, Madam Speaker. (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair fo r the Department of Education; and the honourable member for St. Norbert Rural Forum (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health. Mr.Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, I want to rise today and recognize the importance of the rural COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY forumthat washeld in Brandon, Manitoba, at the end of (Concurrent Sections) last week on Thursday, Friday and Saturday and congratulate the many participants who displayed their EDUCATION AND TRAINING waresand the immenselywell-received program that was put on. I also want to congratulate all the Junior Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, Achievers who were presented awards at the forum. please. Will the Connnittee of Supply please come to 1092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 order. This afternoon, this section ofthe Commit teeof government, when it was in power, whenthe Manitoba Supply, meeting in Room255, willresume consideration Associatim ofSchool Trustees specifically asked ifthey of the Estimates of the Department of Education and could have access to the ministerto come to a particular Training. meetingto explaina political position of MAST, that the NDP ernm When the committee last sat, it hadbeen considering gov ent declinedto send the minister and sent insteadthe deputy, Ron Duhamel, who appearedon item l.(b)(l) on page 34 of the Estimates book. Shall Mr. behalf of the government to answer a political question the itempass? of the government. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chair, I think we had indicated before we left last timethat there were a That was the way the NDP government utilized its number of other issues that could be discussed on this deputies. We do not go to that extent. We do not put line. They also fiillanother muter line on policy, as well, deputies inthe position of having to actually appear at a but if we ask them here, we will not be asking them public fonnn answerto a political decision question, but there. So theseare related to the policy functions of the wedo do some of the things the NDP usedto do, which - department, which I notice are seeing an increase in both is to allow deputies to represent the department, to hear expenditures and also in salaries. information, to receive presentations, to answer questions on the radio as to various pieces of I wanted to ask the minister about the Enhancing infonnation. I justwanted to clarify that ifindeed we are Accountability docwnent that camefrom the government. politicizing the bydeputy askinghim to appear in public The minister, in questioning last time, said that this was toreceive information, we are certainly not going nearly only partin written by the Department of Education, and as fa r as the previous NDP government used to go. I I wanted to pursue that a little bit, to ask the minister, think ifshe was not concerned about them, and I ftrst of all, ifshe and her staffhad read this document understand she was not, then sheneed have no concern before it was released. whatsoever about this government's conduct in that matter. Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): When we stopped on Friday, I was in the In regard to the question she asked, did we read the middle of answering a question, and I wonder ifbef ore paper before it went out? Yes. Did I say that our we get going on today' s I could complete that answer. department only wrote a part of it? No. Again,woul I d urge the member to review Hansard. What I did Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the indicate, andI maybe paraph rasing the words somewhat - committee? [agreed] The honourable minister, to now, is that any document issued with the approval of completeher answer. government is a governmentocumen d t and that there would be many sources that would collaborate on Mrs. Mcintosh: I did not have too much left to say. It providing information to certain documents because isjust that member the had been asking about whether or certain areas of government have knowledge and not it was politicizing the deputy minister toplace him expertise in certainareas that isdeemed appropriate fo r on a panel that was out receiving information for the inputting into the finalgov ernment documents. ministry. I would just indicate that I do not believe putting the deputy on a panel to receive submissions She misinterpreted my words, which I thought were from thepublic politicizes a deputy because every day of rather clear, but perhaps they were not, and interpreted the year-and the opposition when it was a government my words to mean that the department only wrote a did the same thing, as well-everyday, we have our portion ofthe paperwhen what I really said was there deputies go on camera, explain positions, take public werepeople many having input into the production of the phone calls, attend meetings, go on the radio, listen to paper. A collaborative effort is just as logical a presentations and so on. conclusionto draw as thatdepartment the only wrote one portim of it In thefinal result, Mr. Chairman, thepoint Indeed, the member may recall, because it was the I would like to make isthat it is a government document, subjectof some controversy in the newspaper, when her and a government document will certainly have more !\J>ril 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1093
than one author and certainly will have more than one The minister has said that this is a collaborative source of input. There is no one person who sat down document. Most documents have anauthor attached to and authored that document from beginningto end. them. For example, ifwe were looking at the research documents that the government has many times talked
�· (1530) about in the context of hog marketing, there are three authors mentioned on that one. This one has no authors, Ms. Friesen: The minister says that her government and thequestion comes up because somany peoplein the doesnot put deputies atpublic forums to answer political hearings questioned the information that was being questions, but I was at a meeting in Gimlivery recently, presented in that document, and so the question of I think it was last week, where an assistant deputy authorship does become significant. Secondly, because ministerwas sent out fo r precisely that purpose, and put the proposals were, in the view of those many people in a rather difficult position because those kinds of who went to the hearings, of such a limitednature as to questions were being asked and the purpose of the be perceived as extremely political, hence again the meeting was to talk about the government's recent question of authorship becomes significant. policy. So that is the context in which I am asking the The assistant deputy minister was quite proper in question. The minister has said the document was a sayingthat she could not answer those questions, but of collaborative one. Could she tell uswho collaborated in the31 MLAs in the Torycaucu s, not one could be found theproduction of this document? to go and speak to a meeting in Gimli which had been 1::alled to discuss the political proposals of the Mrs. Mcintosh: Before I begin the answer to the main government in many areas of education. question, I believe it is critically important that I correct the wrong information put forward in her lengthy I think perhaps the minister is drawing too broad a preamble. I hope the people who are reading Hansard sweep there when she said her government never does willflip backto the questions she made. I can only pray that. Ifwe want to look in my previous critic areas in that ifthey read her questions, that they take the time to Culture, Heritage, for example, when the government readthe response because the information she put on the was cutting the role of the Manitoba Heritage counciL I record about the assistant deputy minister is absolutely, remember one very heated meeting where it was deputy totally and categorically wrong. ministers and assistant deputy ministers who were sent toansw erfo r the political judgements of the government. I received an invitation in my office about a week and a couple of days before anevent that wasto take place in Over the last fe w years, I think the government has Gimli. I understand that the member herself was quite certainly done this, and I draw it to the minister's critical ofthe factthat I did not appear at that meeting in attention, particularly because the document she claims Gimli. [interjection] Then maybe my sources are wrong. to be nonpolitical was certainly perceived as a very Themember then no made referen ce to the fact that I was political document bythe people towhom it was directed not there, although I willcheck with mysource after who and who were asked to respond to it. quoted to me that the member had said she thought it wasreally unfortunate that I hadnot caredto come. The It was in that context that I thought it was unwise fo r member may wish to put on the record that she never the minister to put a deputy minister on that committee said thatany to of the witnesses who reported to me that andto be exposed in that public a fashion to the, indeed, she did say that. hostility. One would have to say that it was outright hostility in many areas. I fe lt that in the long term this Asit turned out, when I got that invitation aboutnine would diminish the deputy minister, whomever it was. days before the event wasto take place-my calendar, as It is not a question of reflection on any individual, but it the member is probably aware, is booked five, six weeks diminishes the prospects for a deputy minister in ahead, and I had committed myself to be the keynote maintaining that open communication that we talked speaker at an annual general meeting of parents and about last time. teachers atPierre Elliott Trudeau Collegiate and was not 1094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 aboutto break that promise. They hadmade that request keeping with their desires. They were sorry that I was many, manyweeks before the event, the usual lead time not free to attend, but theywere quite willing to have a that most people will give a minister ofthe Crown, so seniorcivil servant esscome toaddr the fa ctual aspects of when a lastinvitation minute came in, I knew I could not New Directions,and I believe they made that clearat the go. The invitation had said that there were two topics to meeting. be discussed. One was they wanted to discuss the programming surrounding New Directions. The other I would ask the member for Wolseley if it was not was the arbitration paper Enhancing Accountability. made clear at the meeting that the ADM was there as a resource person, not to answer political questions, We contactedthe Gimli people, andI amvery sorryif becausehave I been told that was clear.made Maybe the theydid not do this,but we said we are allcommitted in memberdid just not hearthat being made clear, because tennsof time. The minister has a previous engagement. if she did not hear it being made clear then I can She would love to come and clarify a lot of the understandwhy she would sayshe was concerned that I misinformation that we are pretty sure the opposition sent a deputy to do political things. Ifshe did hear it - will be trying to put on the record, but the minister is made, if she heard that statement made, then she is unavailable. However, in terms of a resourceperson to puttingfalse information deliberately on the record, and provide information on New Directions, we could send I would ask her to tell me whether or not she heard that a seniorcivil servantwho has expertise in thatarea who being said, that the ADM was not there to answer could answer questions on the programming. political questions but wasprovided as a courtesy tobe a resourcefor the technicaland factual things. But ifwe sendher, we want to make it clear thatshe can bethere as a resource andparticipate to answer any * (1540) questions on the programming or on New Directions, since she is one of thetop experts in the government on That hadagreed been to by the panel who apologized that, but she cannot be coming as a political person for giving me such short notice and who did not expect becauseshe is not anelected person. Soshe will not be me to break another commitment with other parents in able to answer any political questions, but ifyou need another community. SoI would appreciate the member someone there to tell you what New Directions is all telling me whether or not she was basing her first really about in terms of the implementation, in terms of premiseon the assumption that I did not know whathad the requirements, in terms of the thrust and the gone on at the meeting and allowed deliberately false procedures andintent, we have a person in the person of infonnationon togo the recordthat I hadsent the ADM - Carolyn Loeppky, our assistant deputy minister, who to answerpolitical questions. Ifshe heard thatclarified, knows more about thistopic thananyone in government. that I had not sent her fo r that reason, then could she please withdraw the inherent criticism in her statement We would be pleased to provide her as the expert on and apologize to me for putting false information that for your panel, and because I cannot appear in deliberately on the record person,did I write a letter outlining the true intent of the Enhancing Accountability document which we asked to Ifshe did not hear it-I know it was said; perhaps she have read. did not hear it even though she was there-then I would like her to explain that she did not hear it, and I will Now, I amreally concerned ifthe member did not hear apologizeto herfor assumingthat she heard all thatwas thatletter read,because did we ask to have it read, which said at the meetingatten she ded. would indicate that a lot of the innuendo going around about the document was, in fa ct, inaccurate. Like, for Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I think the member, if she example, there would be no wage rollback in wages and checks the willrecord, hear that, in fact, I said thedeputy those things. Sothe ADM was sent as a resource person ministeracted quite and correctly was not there to answer only, because she had the knowledge that the people political questions. Secondly, I also said thatthis was puttingthe panel together said theywanted . The people not a criticism of the ,minister that there were 31 Tory putting the panel together accepted that as quite in MLAs who I hadhoped would be able to come to that !\J>ril22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1095 meeting, andI thinkI said here exactly what I said at the name Government of Manitoba on it, the government meeting. itself becomes the author, the government claims authorship, the government acknowledges authorship, noticethat the ministerhas digressed fo r quite awhile I the government takes responsibility for the document and has not yet answered the question I put last time, once it has the Government of Manitoba's signature on was, could she tell us something more about the which it. authorship of this document? I gave her two reasons fo r the questions, the context of that document and, of Asminister, I takeresponsibility. Allthe members of the question ofthe accuracy of the information. course, government take ownership of documents which are labelled Government of Manitoba official documents, so Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the I think the number ofpeople involved in putting input think if darification the member made. I she checks into the document, the variety of departments, the levels Hansard she willsee thatin her question she implied that of expertise, dothey change thecontent of the document? the deputy minister was sent, and to her credit did not Does it change the level of debate over the contents of answer political questions even though, and this is the documentif you find out, for example, that so-and-so definitely implied, the minister sent her into a political had input into it versus so-and-so? I believe the forum expectingher to do that. document deserves and requires debate on its own merit withoutworrying whether it was 22 people or 23 people Theway you wordedyour question left the impression or whether it wasCivil Service orDepartment of Labour, -and you are very good at this, Madam-clearly left the Department of Finance or Department of Education or impression that the minister had consciously sent the anyof those other departments who played any particular ADM out to answer political questions and that the lead role in the establishing of it. ADM, becauseofher high integrity, correctlydid not fa ll into the trap the minister had laid for her. That is the Whatis important is thatthe member has indicated she implication that I read into your question. That is the believed that there were some pieces of information in implication that most readers would read into your that document that were incorrect, and I would be very question. I thinkyou know it, and I know it. We did say grateful ifthe member could indicate which areas of the befo re thatyou if keptthe tone of your questions as high, document she believes are inaccurate. Where are the so thetone of myanswers would behigh, butwhen I see the called errors? Where arethe so-called mistakes? subtle way in which you are trying to do these things, I will call a spade a spade everytime, so we cancarry on Could she indicate to us what she thinks is not courteously or not. accurate in thatdocument, so that we can, for the record, Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I hate to clarify for her correctand anymisunderstan dings she may interrupt, Madam Minister; however, I would ask all have? We have hadone brought to our attention already members, both the member for Wolseley and the which we checked and verified that we were correct. honourable minister, to address their comments to the Unfortunately, it was one that the Teachers' Societyhad Chair. Thankyou. published wide and far as a mistake when it was not a mistake. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, who wrote the budget? Who wrote the throne speech? Who wrote the We did correct it, but I doubt very much that they Accountability document? Who wrote any number of informed their same readership that they had, in fact, things issued by the government? I am puzzled and been wrong in saying that our document was wrong. I perplexed by why, with this particular document, unlike thinkthey let their statement stand andwe did not have anyother, theopposition suddenly seems to be concerned the time orthe money orthe energy to chase down all the with authorship. You never ran around and asked who hundreds of people they may have written to saying that authored the throne speech. The opposition never asks there wasan orerr where there wasnone . So ifyou have who writes the budget presentation or the budget anyinf ormation about anerror that you think is in there, document, and the reason they do not is because it is could youplease dous thehonour oftelling us what it is, quite clear. Once government issues a document with the and we will lookinto it fo r you. 1096 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Ms.Friesen: Mr. Chairman,some of theones that have That was the latest one that we were working on. . been brought to my attention deal particularly with the There is a newone thatshow may us slightly up, but the pupil-educator ratio. As I understand it, thereare three onefor the docwnent which we areworking in-I believe, different versions of this num ber. In 1994-95, I believe sourced-would indicate that. thatthe docwnent itself proposes thatthe pupil-educator ratio in Manitoba is 14.9 and it gives reference to that. The other one that we have to collaborate that is a The foo tnote for thatis the British Columbia Ministry of more statisticrecent from .British Columbia in thefall of Education. The FRAME document of the government 1995, which polled every province and territory in itself offers for the same pupil-educator ratio 18.9, or it Canada, and the 1994 figurewas indeed 14.9 from that offers another figure of 16.4 as well fo r the lower one if source. you include administrators. So there are two sources, Mr. Chairman, one from Statistics Canada in its most recent edition of 1992 and one from 1995, two different sources on education statistics, which I the library received a think student-educatorratios, bothshowi ng 14.9 for Manitoba, - few weeks ago, lists 15.2. So there are three different well below the national average. Ifyou use our own ones there, I think allofthemrelating to, if Itake that FRAMEReport fo r the total student-educatorrati os, the 18.9 one, the ratio between pupils and educators in the total figure for '94-95 also shows 14.9, also again classroom, that is excluding the administrators and the amongst the lowest in Canada. clinicians, et cetera. So that is one of the areas where therehas been certainly comment and some clarification There are three sources there, and if you want the would be required. number that you were talking about in terms of class size, which, again, is a differing comparison-the threeI * (1550) have just given you have been pupil-educator ratios. Pupil-educator ratiosinvolve thenumber of students to Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, but could the member tell me the munber of professionals in the school who work with where the error is? I mean, she has quoted some students as resource teachers, classroom teachers, et statistics. I presume she knows the differencebetween a cetera, and it includes alleducators in the school. pupil-teacher and pupil-educator ratio. The otherfigure thatyou may be interested in,which But I had ifasked you could show us where there were is the regular instruction class size, is 18.7, andthat is some errors, and I am wondering ifyou could show us the average number of pupils per classroom teacher, where the errors were in those. which is different from the number of pupils per educator, becauseyou mayhave educators in the school Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could theminister tell us who do not teach a class. Teaching librarians, for why the pupil-teacher ratio-and I was using educator, example, maynot register a home class, so the average you are quite right; I should have said pupil numberpupils of perteacher is 18.7. That is the '94-95 teacher-from Statistics Canadais giving us 15.2? figurefrom FRAME accounting.
Mrs.Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman,the as member knows, The keyis to try beto consistent in your parisonscom . the Stats Canadafigure, there is a new one out now. The So when you talk about pupil-educator, which is latestone, aside fi:omthe one thathas just comeout, was basicallywhat have you to talkabout whenyou compare done in July '92, and ifthe member has that,. she can with the rest of Canada, because that is the only true look pageon 3 5, where clearly it shows it is a statistical comparison, where you are comparing apples with portrait of elementary and secondary education in apples-when you say pupil-educator in every province, Canada. It is a graph that shows theratio of enrollment they are measuring the same thing you are; they are to educators in public schools by province and territory comparing apples with apples instead of apples with across Canada,and it clearly shows Manitoba on the bar oranges. Those comparisons are valid, and they are graphas just under the 15, around 14.9. compared by threediff erent sources. �\pril22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1097
The class size at 18.7 is our ownindication from our then. We put forward the pupil-educators statistic which own statistical analysis, and the FRAME financial is 14.9 fo r Manitoba, andwe also put forward the pupil reporting shows 18.7 pupils per classroom teacher in teacher statistic which is the number of pupils per Manitoba. Those are correctfigur es. classroomteacher whichis 18.7 for Manitoba. We know those aretwo differentwe things are talking about, and in Ms. Friesen: The British Columbia source is, in fact, both of those instances Manitoba fares verywell indeed the government of Manitoba. compared to other provinces.
Mrs. Mcintosh: As is every province. When British Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, did this particular Columbia does its comparisons, it goes province by document, Enhancing Accountability, talk about the ]province, takes all the information from each of the pupil-teacher ratio, the 18. 7? ]provinces,and does the comparative study. They gave us the definitions with which we were to provide them the Mrs. Mcintosh: No, Mr. Chainnan,it does not, because :information. They set the parameters. They indicated the other provinces-we did not want to put anything in their definition of pupil-educator, which was the valid here unless we could absolutely guarantee we were 1;::omparison that finally came out. talking, as Isaid before, apples to apples. We know with the pupil-educator it was absolutely straight comparison When they said to us, please provide us with this apples to apples. Although we know informally pupil information based upon the number of this and thatand teacher ratios from other vinces,pro we knowwhat they the other thing, we complied with their request fo r the are, we did not have statistical charts that could verify pieces infof ormation they askedfo r, and they came out in that. Therefore we did not include that in the document. thefinal analysis with the samefigures that Stats Canada showed,that our own figures show, et cetera. It has been subject ofmany, many conversations, it is well knownby theorganiza tions, thestakeholder groups, Ms.Friesen: Mr. Chairman, arethereany differences in andwe know, as Isay, from informal contacts with other the criteria that BritishColumbia establishes as it looks provinces and territories that our pupil-teacherratio is a at thisBlue Cross provincial comparison? Are there any very favourable one here in Manitoba, but we did not differences between it and the Stats Canadacriteria? include it specifically in the document because we did not have the documentation that we can absolutely verify Mrs. Mcintosh: We do not take ownership for British from every province; we did not have all the provinces Columbia's decision making. However, they define statistics on that in written fo rm that we could verify to educators the same way that all provinces and Canada include in the document. We did not want to put now does, so we now have a common definition so that anything in the document that could not be verified the
we can compare apples to apples, as I said before. way this pupil-educator ratio can.
BritishColumbia and Stats Canada and us and other If she is aware of any document that has all 10 provinces now, when we talk about pupil-teacher ratios, provinces andboth territories with that particular statistic all use the same definition. We mean those educators verifiedfrom each province formally, we would bevery who arein schools versusthe number of students, and we pleased to be able to put that in. We know info rmally include in thosethe special needs teachers, clinicians and what our figures are, butforma l presentation in a codified counsellors, thosekinds of people who are in the schools fonnatwould be very much appreciated ifshe has access full andtime work withthe students in the schools but do to it. not have their own classroom, and we also include classroom teachers. That is standard now. * (1600)
All areas use that as a definition, so there is no more Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate thedesire fo r comparing of apples to oranges andno more saying, well, comparability andfo r equality of definitions, but what I pupil-teacher versus pupil-educator, whichare not the want to ask the minister is, is she aware that that same things. So we have two statistics we put fo rward particular element in the preparation of this document 1098 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April22, 1996 caused a great deal of anxiety, concern, hostility? I educator ratio is the number of teachers employed in would saymany people who presented to that committee relation to the number of pupils enrolled in the schools. pointed to thatparticular table as, I thinkin their minds, It quiteclearly indicates that it would include allteachers firstof all, conveyingan unrealistic scenario in Manitoba. employed versus classroom teachers.
Theminister why, asks Mr. Chairman, andI thinkit is I fm d it interesting that no representative for the because without a good deal of explanation, what that Manitoba Teachers' Society asked or posed a question portrays to members of the general public who are not concerning theaccuracyof that figure. They knew. They versed in the educational statistical language is that the said that you are talking pupil-educator, not pupil actualclas sroomparticipation of teachers and students is teacher, and we said that is correct, so they knew the at that level, and many people obviously said, no, it is difference quite clearly. not, and my classes are much larger thanthat. Is the member saying-! am going back to my original I think it was one of the things which contributed to question You indicated in your openingtoday that there that sense of the undermining of the teaching profession were a lot of mistakes in this document, a lot of and of the people in the classroom. Had there been a inaccurate figures and a lot of errors, and I asked ifyou broader discussion-and that is really again why I am could give us some, but, so far, all you have done is getting at authorship. If this had been a broader indicate thatthere is a figure in here that is correct. discussion paper which would have been much more research-based in the sense of, all right, here is the full (Mr. Mike Radcliffe,Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) discussion of teacher-educator relationships across the country. Here to the best of our knowledge is where SoI amjust wondering if Icould, with respect, ask you Manitoba stands in teacher-pupil relationship. Here is again where are all these errors, where are all these the difference between the two. We know that some mistakes, andwhere all are the :fdctual inaccuracies in this classes in Manitoba are larger. We know that some document, because you have named one, and it is a classes are smaller. correct figure. It is not wrong and it is not being questionedas wrong. If that kind of general discussion could have been included, ifthis had been a research paper, I think it People seem to know because they have said, why do would have helped considerably to conduct this you not have pupil-teacher in there, as well, and I think discussion in public on a much different basis thanit has we haveexplained that. least At the MTS seems toknow been. the differencebetween pupil-educator and pupil-teacher, So thatis why startedI with that and againstarted with and it says in the document that pupil-educator is the the authorship and the relationship of this to the total number of teachers employed in relation to the Departm.entofEducation, because so many people that I number of pupils enrolled in the schools. have heard, who have talked about this document, have said, look, surely the department knows. We know the To me, that seems clear as a definition. Perhaps it department knows the difference. could have beenexpanded and enlarged upon and made more clear or bemore detailed. That would be a good Theminister has just put it onthe record, but thatsense point, but it is not inaccurate as you indicated in the ofconveying that to the general public is not there in this beginning,so could you tell us where the mistakes are, so document, and I wonder ifin the minister's response to we canlook intothem? thisdocument- andI assumeat some point there is going tobe a formal response to the committee's presentation Ms.Friesen: Oneof the cootrasts s that eemsto me to be those kinds ofissues canbe discussed, and, in particular, there is in the comparison with Statistics Canada, the that one. most recent production, which from my notes does say 15.2 for pupil-teacher relationships. Now, I have just Mrs. Mcintosh: I am reading page 7 of the sent for a copy of thatbook to makethat, sure in fact, I accountability document where it indicates thatthe pupil- didread it correctly. I maynot have read it correctly, so �Y,ril22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 1099
I have sent fo r the actual copy, so we can all have the of the areas of concern, and I am asking and suggesting s:ame copy in front of us. to the minister that she take that opportunity to expand upon this area. My basic point is thatthe minister and the department "'(1610) were aware that there were other numbers, 18.7, which were closer to teachers' experiences, and I think the Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, the member has (:Oncerns ofmany people whom I heard discuss this at the indicated that in terms of actual experience, that 18.7 hearings was that this was a document which was being students is closer to what most teachers experience, and, sentout, and,of course, we have to remember that it was with due respect, I do not know any classroom teacher accompanied by that friendly fax from other sources. who has not had some experience utilizing resource teachers, special needs teachers, clinicians, counsellors, Point of Order teacher-librarians. I do not know any. If she could produce fo r me a Manitoba teacher who has only had Mrs. Mcintosh: On a point of order, this was not experiencewith thenumber students of in their own class accompaniedanyth by ing. The government of Manitoba and no other teacher workingwith those children, ifshe put out this document, and it was not accompanied by could produce for me the teacher in Manitoba who has any other document that the member is referring to. I never utilized the extra educators in the school-the think maybe that is disputea over the facts. principal, theresource teacher-then I would concede that theremight bea point in one or two instances. But most The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Thankyou, classroomteachers that I know, in fa ct, allthe classroom MadamMinister. I thinkyou have labelled this correctly teachers that I know, have from time to time utilized as a dispute over the facts. I thank you for that reading recovery teachers, resource teachers, clinicians, information, and I would invite the honourable member counsellors. fo r Wolseley to continue with her question. "'"'"' So fo r her to say that most teachers have an isolated experience, in which they never are aware of the other Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, my concern is, again, to educators in the school, by saying that 18.7 is what most put this document intocontext of the government sending teachers experience and completely negate the worth of out a docmnent which had very narrow definitions of the theother educators in the school who lift, in some cases, relationship betweenteachers andtheir responsibilities in a very heavy burden indeed from the backs of the the education system, and, in this case, fo r example, did classroomteachers, I think maybe it would be good ifthe not talkabout the 18.7, which, although, as theminister membercould come into some of the K to 8 schools and has said, she does not have comparable data across watch what happens therebecause there is interaction. If Canada,it certainlywould have given people who are not whatshe is sayingby implication is that putting resource familiarwith educational statistics, and there are, I would teachers and special needs teachers in the school makes say, many thousands of those in Manitoba, some sense no difference whatsoeverto the classroom teacher, then I that there are other ways of examining this particular would like to know what teacher she hasbeen talking to position. who gainedno benefit whatsoever in terms of lightening Really, what I amsaying to the minister is that in her their load or assistingwith the teaching of their students response to this commission, she has the opportunityto from other specialists, other educators in the school. put these things into broader context, that she has the Maybe she could tell me which teachers receive no opportunity to talkto parents, teachers, superintendents benefit from other educators in the school. and trustees, all the people who presented to this commission, perhaps to give a broader context. (Mr. Deputy Chairpersonin the Chair)
Soit is anissue of timing. There is another step to be I thought we had progressed to the point where other made. I am flagging this for the minister as one of the educators in the school were seen as an integral part of areas of concern, and I am sure members on that the school stafl: as anintegral part oflessening the load committee will tell her the same thing, that this was one of thoseclassroom teachers who experience, on average, 1100 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
18.7 students intheir classroomand do receive help from ideas and directions that we could take. Theypref er not the other educators in the school with those children who toget intoa wrangle with the union over it, but there are require attention over and above what the classroom some-well, there are many educators, in fact, who had teacher is able to provide. So to completely negate, as some good ideasto bringfo rward, although the official she hasby implication, the impact of the other educators position publicly was simply to saythe document is not in the school by saying that the formula using educator well-written, the document is not accurate, the document teacher formula is not a good thing to do because 18.7 is not worthy of discussion, we want the status quo. students is what most teachers experience is to indicate those other educators have no impact whatsoever, I do I would liketo know , andmaybe I canask the member not think that is correct. I thinkthey do have animpact if shehas any figures-again, this is about the fourth time and I thinkit is a very beneficial positive impact. I am of asking, could you show me where the errors are, sorry themember doesnot feel thatway. I amsorry the please? You startedof( as I indicatedbef ore, saying this classroomteachers she has talked to do not fee l that way, documenthad many erro rs, many incorrect figures, andI but I fee l thatdo they help inthe schools, they do help the thinkis this about thefoorth timethat I have asked,could regular teachers. you please tellme what those errors are, because todate , tothis moment, I have not been informed of any. haveI We would have included other statistics such asclass simply been told that the member wished there could size, such as the 18.7 to show that Manitoba's position have beenaddi tional information provided or that certain vis-8-visthe other provinces is good, but we did not have kinds of information should not have been provided or certifiable verification the way we do on the pupil the ocumd ent did not giveenough explanation or maybe educator. I thinkif we had put it in without being able to it was written by somebody that the NDP do not like. I verify it absolutely, we would then be criticized for do not know, but to date, they have not told us where puttingit in without being able to verifY it absolutely and there are any mistakes in the document, which is what I probably by the same member who is now saying we believe we were going to bediscussing today. should have included it, but to include it out of context-and I suppose we could have put it in verifYing I would be interested to know, too, what about the it against one or two provinces, but we would prefer to issues inthe paper? I think thisis aninteresting tactic of have a nationwide look when we are doing a comparison diversion. Let us not talk about the issues raised in the to this study. paper. us Let not talk about the ability of school boards to pay. Let us not talk about a myriad of important You mayfee l thereshould havebeen other datain; you matters.us Let talk about who wrote it, how theywrote may fee l there should have been some data left out. it, who read it, how they interpreted it, who felt badly Whether you agree with the data that was included, or aboutit, who felt goodabout it, but let us not talkabout disagreewith the data thatwas not included, thefact is theissues contained in the document itself. That,to me, the teachers and the ers' teach union were invited to I think would be something I hope we do get to comment or propose anything they wished, whether it eventually in these Estimates because that is what is at was in the document or not in the document, but they the heart, or should be at theheart, of thesequestio ns. chose not toprovide other alternatives, exceptto say that they did not like the document. Point ofOrder
I think that was unfortunate because the Manitoba Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): On a point of Teachers' Society has an extremely good research staff, order, I am stillrelatively new here, but I understoodthe vety, very capable people. They do know theissues and purpose of this process wasto examine the Estimates of they do know the definitions and could have presented Expenditure, okay, and for the ministerto be asking the some alternatives thatmight have beenvery helpful to the opposition questions-the minister is the one who hasthe committee,rather just than to simply say that they did not staffhere, theminister is theone who is puttingfo rward want to deviate from the status quo. So an opportunity, this budget, and it is up to the opposition to ask in myopinion, waslost, although as I did indicate, I have questions or the members theof government who do not hadmany teachers informally indicate to me some other understand it. ;!\J>ril22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1101
My understanding was this wasnot a place for debate I did saythat I hadexamined the most recent Statistics generally about education. It was to examine the Canadamaterial, which goes up to 1993-94, and on page •expenditures of the Department of Education, and I do 171 of that document I think the minister and her staff not understand the minister asking questions of the will fm d that Manitoba is listed of having increased its questioners. pupil-teacher ratio in public elementary, secondary schools this is across Canada-from 14.8 in 1989-90 to Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Thehonourable minister, on 15.2, so that in 1993-94 Statistics Canada definition of the same point of order? pupil-teacher ratio is 15.2.
Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.Chair, I was inviting questions on Presumably, Statistics Canada's material comes from meaningfultopics. I was getting questions on topics that Manitoba. So, again, we have British Columbia's did not really get to the heart of the issue, and I was statistic, whose sourceis Manitoba, saying 14.9; we have inviting the opposition to put forward questions of a Statistics Canada one saying 15.2. The minister had meaning and substance so that we could get discussing earlier said thatStatistics Canada and British Columbia the heart of the matter rather than the things that go were askingfo r thesame kind of criteria. So I amasking aroundthe edge of it. the minister whatthe reason is for this.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I amgoing Mrs. Mcintosh: Ifthat is thelatest StatsCan, I do not to rulethat, in fact, the member does not have a point of knowfrom whence they drewthose statistics because they order, but it isa dispute over the facts, and simply in this are not thesame as our statistics for the same year. They way, that, infa ct, members fromall sides of the table, if are very close, but I do not know how they sourced that you will, make comments and questions. I do believe particularinformation. I do not have the document here. that the minister, in asking fo r verification of certain Maybethe member could indicate what source theyused. questions, can pose questions in her comments. They usually will listsource their for how they gained the information.
* * * Relatively speaking, however, I believe ifyou look at Mr.Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister, to the relative comparison, which, I am sure, must be in that fm ish her comments. I believe there is about a minute document she has,that relative comparison would still and a half. show Manitoba as it does in the 1992-I do not have it here-asit does in theyear previo us, which is the year that
* (1620) we were using. Pupil-educator ratios by province, '94- 95, from British Columbia shows Manitoba the second Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I believe I have lowest pupil-educatorratio in Canada from last year. I concluded. At that, I will let them get on with their wager that, ifyou look atthat StatsCan statistic, albeit I questioning. do not know how they sourced it, you would see Manitoba's position vis-a-vis the rest of Canada still is Ms.Friesen: Theminister digressed has quite a bit from in that highly favourable percentage of being either the context of my comments last time, which was to second lowest, lowest orthird lowest-in the bottom three. invite her to make that fuller response at the next stage. I thought it wasoff ered in a spiritof constructive advice. But I would be interested to know what the relative This is an area where there was a lot of discussion. I positions are from that particular document. I am quite thinkpeople fe lt, the people whom I heard speak to the surethey verify these because the trend has not changed, commission certainly saw this as a-although it may not andyou maywish to readthat into the record, ifyou have have beeninaccurate in itself, it certainly did not portray it there. the conditions in the classroom which they saw themselves experiencing, and I was offeringthe minister Ms.Friesen : Mr.Chairman, yes, it shows Manitoba as the opportunity in her next stage of this paper to, in fa ct, about in the middle. There are lower pupil-teacher ratios reflect on that. in schools in-[ interjection] 1102 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Mrs. Mcintosh Are they pupil-educator or pupil them are increasing, half of them are decreasing. teacher? Manitoba unfortunately is on the increasing side.
Ms. Friesen Mr. Chairman, the minister asked, is it Mrs. Mcintosh We will take the page down and look pupil-educator orpupil-teacher. I amusing the StatsCan into that. What year isthat again, Jean? language, which says pupil-teacher ratio in public elementary, secondary schools. I wonder ifthat is not one Ms. Friesen 1995. of the issues, in fa ct. Is Manitoba including private schools in its overall statistics? Mrs. Mcintosh Thankyou.
Mrs. Mcintosh No, andit may be that particular thing, Ms. Friesen I wanted to ask the minister again about if they are using pupil-teacher as opposed to pupil some of the issues that have been raised, again, on the educator, may be talking about a different comparison. research angle of this particular document. There are a Theymay not be talking about this same one that gives us number of people who looked at this document and 14.9, which is the educators in the school versus the lookedat the representation that this document makes of pupils. The FRAME budget is for public schools. the increasein teachersand thedecrea se in students. One of thecomments which I thinkfrequently was made to the Ms. Friesen Mr. Chair, there are, obviously, some committee wasthat the document does not acknowledge different elements there in comparison as well, but what that many teachers have become part-time teachers and it does show for 1993-94 is that there are five that had specificallythere been look a at that issue of full jurisdictions in Canada thathave lower per pupil-teacher time versus part-time teachers, there would have beena ratio in public schools. So I do not know whether verydifferent conclusion reached, or a somewhat different Manitoba haschanged in thatposition or not, but it puts conclusion reached. us about in the middle under StatsCan's numbers. * (1630)
Mrs. Mcintosh I do not knowwhat the rangeyou have Mrs.Mcintosh The member unfortunately is incorrect. there is, ifit is a wide range or ifthose fo urthat are under These figures are full-time equivalents. They are not Manitoba are just minimally under or way under. The part-time teachers, or ifthey are parttime, they are only pupil-educator ratios for '94-95, the range is quite counted as part time. For example, ifa principal is a dramatic Saskatchewan at 17.3, for example, versus teaching principal, he only teaches .35 percent of the Manitoba at 14.9, and the only one lower is Quebec at time, then he is only counted .35 percentof the time. I 14.3. Alberta is at 17.9; Prince Edward Island, at 17.1; know thatrumour has beenfloating around, andI know Nova Scotia, at 17.2; New Brunswick, at 17.0. Sothey thatsome people have actually put it out as if this figure are all considerably higher, and the one that is lower is were incorrect. It is not incorrect; these are full-time only lower by a portion of a percentage. I do not know if equivalent teachers. They do incorporate part-time in that document you have the ones that are under teachers, but a half-time teacher is only counted as a half Manitoba are Manitobaunder by more thana percentage time teacher,you and have to have twohalf-ti me teachers point or not or ifthey are allin that range. before you cancount one on this figure.
But, bethat as it may, ifthey aretalking pupil-teacher That was raised at the principals' conference, in fact. and we are talking pupil-educator, you can still see that We went back and had it all verified, checked and Manitoba fares very well either at the bottom or in the rechecked, and it came back that thisfigure stands as middle. It is certainly not in the high range. correct. The member has been misinformed, and I am gladthat she raisedit so it could be noted thatthe figure Ms. Friesen Just fo r the minister's staff, that is page in the document has beenverified by officials as indeed 171 of the 1995 Statistics Canada document, if you being correct. The source for that in terms of accuracy wanted tofo llow it up. The interesting thing, of course, were two sources, the Manitoba Association of School also, is it shows which jurisdictions are increasing their Trustees-and they do have some knowledge of which class size andwhich are decreasing. More or less halfof people are working full time and part time because they April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1103
are employersthe andthe hiring agency- and the Schools took office and we have always got sort of a benchmark Finance Branch, as well. againstwhich we canmeasure. It may have been thatthe year beforeor the yearafter certainthings changed in any Ms. Friesen So that on pages 8 and 9 of this given comparison, but our common pattern is to start document-that is where therelationship betweenteachers with 1988, because that is when we started. and students is spoken of-the minister maintains that all thereferences toteachers take into account the 14 percent Ms.Friesen: What I amt.tying to do is to reflect back to increase, I think it is, in Manitoba in part-time teacher the ministersome ofthe anger about this document. One positions. of them is that people presented, believed that it did not reflect the reality that they were seeing in the classroom Mrs. Mcintosh Under where it says number of teachers or in their school divisions. on page 9, those are full-time equivalents. It could be that they have 12,000 full-time teachers or 24,000 half The minister is right, of course, thatpeople who have time teachers, but they are to the equivalent of 12,000, been in the education system in the last fe w years actually 12,331 full-time teachers. certainly have seen a change as a result of the cuts to Education. One of the changes they believe they have Ms.Friesen Another issue that was raised in this same seen is anincr ease in the number of students in many of areaof thedocument is that the government chose to take the classes across Manitoba. the numbers from '88-89 and hence show a percentage change in the number of teachers by 2.5 percent. That is why I amraising it. It is a sense of reflecting on the general intent of the document and trying to One argument that has been made is that, had the explain or represent to theministerwhy it has aroused so government taken it from other dates, from later dates, much anger and so much hostility at public meetings you would show the decrease that most people have across the province, because indeed it has. Again, it
experienced, a decrease of about 0.8, I think. seems to me thatif a researchpaper hadbeen done, one which presentedpros and cons, both sides of anissue, in Mrs. Mcintosh: I think the member is probably fully thiscase the issue of staffingand the issue of changes in awarethat whenever we make comparisons, maybe not in teachers ratios, whether it is educator ratios or whether it every instanceprimarily but in most instances, we always is classroom-teacher ratios, I think the teaching start from the date that we took office. I have done that profession, the trustees, indeed, and the general public innumerable times; the Minister of Finance (Mr. would have had a greater confidence in a document that Stefanson) hasdone it innumerable times; the Minister of wassetting out to deal with an issue in a fair way. What Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) has done it; the Minister of Health has concerned me and what I am reflecting back to the (Mr. McCrae) has done it. We will stand up and say, in ministeris thatI amvery concernedthat that opportunity 1988 when wetook office the figures werethis, and today hasbeen lost. they are that, and you willsee that repeated over and over as a theme. We always startwith the year that we took Now, I hope it has not. I think the minister has an office to make comparisons. opportunity to reflect on the report she gets and to take account of these kinds of questions, and although I am Now, I suppose we could have started at a different dealing with them, as didmany other people deal with year. The teachers generally start, when they are talking them in terms of the statistics, the issue is the nature of to us, I think it was 1993, the first year we had a 2 thedocument itselfand the wayin which it was presented percent cut in funding. Thatis where theunion likes to as narrowing into five options with a range of numbers start, and I suppose thatunf ortunately is also where the which people fe lt did not reflect the whole picture. official oppositionlikes to start, so I canprobably throw the sameaccus ation back, although I will not, that, well, I am wondering again, if I canjust foc us it on the we always startwith year the we took office. You always future, what does the minister see as the next stage of start with the year that the revenues from Ottawabegan this? In other times the government has, for example, to decline. I think it just easier to start with when we responded to the Boundaries Commission. Is the 1104 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1996
ministergoing tohave a fo rmal response to thecollective It is very hard toconsider other ideas if theyare not voice that she gets from her committee ? presented, but the trustees and some of the other groups, by contrast, did use the opportunity to present Mrs. Mcintosh: I am interested, as the member alternativesthe to curren t system. I have reams of letters indicates, that the document proposed five options , and fromcitizemy with othersuggestions , some of them, I am they were very narrow, and I heard inherent in the sure, are ones that the union would not want to see question that that was not good, but I stress that there invoked because they are quite clear and plain and were five proposals in the document and a request for colourfullyworded. I got thebulk of thosescribbled on others. It was very clearly worded in the document. It the back of little pinkfo lders. could not be more clear. Infact, I willread to you what it says. [interjection) A member says, page 24. Yes, I I understandthere wasone Saturday or something that am looking for a particular quote, but I will indicate the union went out to the shopping malls, and they that-well, I willjust read the last line which says-there handed out quite a fe w of these pink folders with is another quote in here that is better, but it says : A infonnati.oo.and asked people to contact the minister and maj or pmposeof this paper is to initiateopen discussion theydid. They were usuallyscrib bledall over with yes, regardingthese issues. I amcontacting theher ministertotell that, and theywere very, very supportive of the ministerand I do not think It goeson andinvites people to publica meeting, and that the union realized that would be the end result of then it says: In addition, written comments and their little pink pamphlets, because I have got them all alternative suggestions are invited and should be sent to over my office, I am with you, Minister, kind of address and so on statements. I do notappreciate being accosted at the mall bythe union, et cetera, but I amsure they never sold out I indicated, as well, very clearly, in a letter that I sent the teachers. to theeditor andin thepress release, that we were hoping that those five proposals would be a springboard for I have a whole scrapbook full of themwhich I am discussion that would lead to discussion and feedback readingand taking seriously, becauseunderneath the way and might spark some ideas that could be presented to in which the comments were sent back in are some government as a way to try to resolve the dilemmathat suggestions. I wish that the teachers had taken trustees found themselves in. opportunity, when they were given it, to do more than stand there sayand we are reallyhard done by, andyou * (1640) are nice,not andwe want the status quo, andwe willnot Soit wasvety, vetyclear, no ifs, ands or buts about it, give you anyother ideas. I think notthat was helpful to thatthose fiveproposals were hoped to be the basis of a us, but we still are willingto hear from teachers. As I discussionwould that spark widerperspective andother say, there have been some who have come quietly ideas. Unfortunately, and again I say it is very forward to say have you everthought of doing this, have unfortunate, but perhaps there is opportunity still, the you ever thought of doing that, it might work, it might members of the union who made presentation did not help. have any other suggestions or ideas. They did not put fo rwardany other options or alternatives. They indicated There are some teachers who are close to and friends thatthey did not like the paper, they did not like the way with many trustees and understand the dilemma that it waswritten, did they not like the statistics thatwere put trustees face, andhave some empathy and sympathy for forward in thedocument They questioned the validity of thedilemma that trusteesfind themselves in. There are, the statistics. They questioned the validity of the indeed, a lot of teachers who have indicated to me that comparisons. They indicated that Manitoba teachers they, too, are taxpayers and they have said that we pay were far worse off, in most cases, thanother provinces, taxes, too, and we understand thedilemma; it seemssort even though information was there that indicated, on a ofstrange to raise our salaries by a certainamount, only comparison-by-profession basis and a comparison-by to take that same amount back in taxes because taxes province basis, theywere doing allright, but they did not have had to rise to accommodate my salary. There are I put forward any other options or alternatives. thinka lot more teachers like thataround than the union April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ll05 realizes. I think I have beencontacted by almost all of is reallyall I ampointing out to the minister at this stage them in that who fee l that way. that-well, we willmove on.
I wonder if the document had been worded any I wanted to ask the minister, she mentioned a differently, if theresponse would have been any different, scrapbook that she has of pink slips, and I wondered and I guessthat was something that hasbeen stated to me what the pink slips from people who signed these when by an awful lot of people that raising this topic, even if they were approached in malls and then sent them to the encouched in the most user-friendly language possible minister. Could the minister-yes, pink slips has another would have raised the ire of the union, and the. union term,so I wanted to specify that. Would the minister be would have seen in its duty to inflame the membership. sending thatto her commission? What is the disposition Now ifthe wording of the document was terse andblunt, of those documents? perhaps it was easierfo r those methodologies to succeed, but I wonder aloud ifthe response would have beenthat Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not have them in a scrapbook. I different, perhaps by degree, because we know in years said I could fill a scrapbook, probably several past, this is a subjectthat just simply could not be raised. scrapbooks. The pink slips that I amref erring to are not It could not be raised because the fee lings on the issue the dismissal slips or telephone slips. They were little were so sensitive. pink brochures that the teachers' union put together and they were about the accountability document. I forget Trustees have been afraid to raise it over the years. how they were worded. It had something about, look Parents havebeen afraid to raise it. Teachers have been what your government is doing to education or afraidto raise it Ministers of Education have ducked the something, and they went to the mall on a Saturday-it issuefor the better partof a decade. I knowas president must have beena Saturday because these things allcame of MAST, we appeared before Minister Storrie. He flooding in on the Monday and Tuesday-and handed ducked the issue. Ministers of Education do not want to them out. touch this one; it is a hot potato. Trustees have been reluctant to take it to the floor of the convention in the Many of them are, indeed, signed. People put their lasttwo yearsthey have. I think that had the government names on the bottom andone person attached a piece of spent anotherto year phrase this in user-friendly language paper saying, no,no, I shallnot write the government and and madesme that all the statistics werefully explained, then proceededwrite to the government with his views on I thinkthat the teachers would stillhave been incredibly what he thought about being given this piece of paper. angry that we would raise this issue and question the Some of the wording on thosewere pretty colourful and method by which compensation is made to those somethem of were fairly intense and, like, I am aretired employed in the field, because they have never been teacher andI used to teach with 34 kids in the classroom questioned this waybef ore. and no prep time and no assistance and no resource teacher and no librarian and had to supervise lunch hour Ms. Friesen: I thinkthe dile mmathat thetrustees find and did my homework at night and taught from nine to themselves in is a constant · cutting of funds from the fom and all of these things andI think teachers have got provincial government and an off loading onto the local it prettygood these days. Those kinds of comments were tax base, particularly onto a local tax base which is there and as I indicated to the member, things that were increasingly bearingthe bulk oftaxation in Canada,the written to be submissions and were intended fo r public two changes which have been going on. So it is not an consumption will all be referred to the commission to abstract issue, the dilemma of trustees, it is a series of study. political choices that Conservative governments have made. * (1650)
I thinkwhat I am suggestingto the minister is that the Letterswere that sent to me privately or that I consider document wasperceived, widely seenby many teachers, were sent to me by someone who thought they were as an unfair document and that it did not recognize the writingme a personal note and not a submission would conditions thatteachers face in the schools today and that be kept as private correspondence to me. Those 1106 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
particular ones I have set aside as personal To say, well, trustees are now finally asking for a correspondence because they were not sparked by the change in bindingarbitration because of government cuts commission. They were not written submissions to the makes it very difficult to explain why they wanted the commission, they were not even in response to the same thing 10, 11 years ago. Maybe the member could commission. They were in response to a piece of paper explain why 10 or 11 years ago, when we were getting they weregiven that hadinf ormation on it that really did money from the government in increases every year, not have anything to do with presentations to the maybeshe can tell me why trustees, 10 and 11 years ago, commission. They are given a piece of paper that said wanted changes to binding arbitration, and why it was the government of Manitoba hascut back on funding, and such a big issue, and why it was a topic of complaint the government of Manitoba is hurting education, and the every year, andwhy the ministers of Education of that day government of Manitoba is no good where education is wereasked to do something about it, officially, on behalf concerned, and they are going to roll teachers ' wages of trustees. back and all of these things. I cannot remember what was on it exactly, but it was along that line. We can debate on the budget line school division - funding,the and member has indicatedthat teachers have So they were responding to that pink brochure. They differing conditions today thanthey used to have before, werenot responding to Enhancing Accountability. They and indeedthey do, and, in fact, ironically enough, just a were not responding to the Enhancing Accountability fe w moments ago I mentioned a retired teacher who document at all. They were responding to a pink pointed out how different the conditions are today than brochure that they were handed in the mall by a union they usedto be. memberand they withdisagreed what they hadread or, in some cases, theyjust simply disagreed with the fa ct that I know the other side of the coin. Conditions are somebodyhad given them this and told them to write me. different because, by and large, children today, So I do not really consider them submissions although I unfortunately, do not have the same kinds of respectful willgo through themthere if are any that I thinkcould be attitudes in the classroom that they used to have 20, 30 considered that. I willphone thepeople who sent them years ago. and ask ifthey want them forwarded. They were not all signed, but the majority of them were signed. There are a lot of children who survive birth now and enter the school system who never usedto, fe tal alcohol You indicated thattrustees are fitcing this dilemmanow syndrome children, for example. Ifthere is a fe tal alcohol because of all the cuts in Education, but I assure you syndrome child in a classroom without an aide, I would - absolutely that trustees were facing this dilemmain 1985 like the member to tell me where that child is, because and 1986 and 1987, andyou cancheck therecord, but I every fe tal alcohol syndrome student thatI am aware of believe thatthere were ruts no toEducation in thosedays, doeshave anaide or an assistant assignedto that student and trustees were making those requests of government. orassigned tothe classroom teacher to help her or himin I know because I was in those years the past president, the classroom with that student. the president and the vice-president of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees. It was a huge agenda Teachers are increasingly having to be social workers, item. It was debated hotly at manyof our table officers ' nurses, parents, aswell asteachers . Sometimes they have meetings. There weretwo presentations that I am aware to be representatives ofthe justice system, and they do of and that I waspart of to ministers of Education asking face pressures that teachers did not have to fa ce 40, 50 fo r relieffrom theconfines ofbinding arbitration in 1985, years ago in termsof student contact. It is very difficult 1986, and 1987. tohug a child these days. Teachers facea lot of pressures and we understand that, andwe have great empathy fo r In 1986, the school trustees of Manitoba banded theteachers who work in theschools under these changed together totry to get a wage freeze. They wanted a wage circumstances. They are different. freeze, that was 10 years ago, officially wanted a wage freeze. They were not successful, but there was no Even when I wasa young teacher, 30 some-odd years cutting then. ago-[inteijection] Thankyou, you say 20. In the early April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1107
'60s, when I was a young teacher, there were not the balance, or where does it add up to, or has she not had same problems in the classroom that there are today. At the chance to look at it yet? thesame time, to tryand assist the teachers, we have also introduced as a system things like preparation time, * (1700) things like teacher assistants in the school, money fo r special needs andresource teachers. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I thinkthere are four or five that support the teachers' position, and the rest are We have tried to get those kinds of things into the all-tobe blunt, the rest say things like I got this crummy school to try to help teachers with the very difficult job thingshoved in my fucein the mall. They told me to send theyhave, andnot fora minute should anyone ever think, it to you. I am sending it to you to say ifanybody sends when we start to talk about wages and the increasing you this saying they support them, then I thinkthey are costs to school systems of their teacher compensation right out to lunch. That kind of comment, and they were package, that we are saying that teachers do not do a sort of scribbled across it. It actually evoked a fa ir deal goodjob and are not worth being paid. of hostility.
I know thatequation has beenmade, very clearlymade, I was quite surprised, because the very first one I and I thinkmayb e made quite clearly by members of the received was supportive. The very first one I received official opposition. Ifyou donot give the teachers a raise hadthe little pink thing witha little note saying please do everyyear, even ifyou cannot afford one, that means that not beso cruel to the teachers, and I thought, oh, okay, I you do not value teachers and think they are doing a am going to start receiving a lot of these and they are terrible job, and that is not anequation that is true. going to have that sort of message, like please do not be so cruel to the teachers. Then they just dumped all in a We value teachers. A really good teacher is priceless. couple of days or the Tuesday, Wednesday. Theyjust You cannot put a price tagon a top-notch teacher, and for sort of dumped. Some of them were stuffed in my mail a parent who has had a child in distress whose life is box at home, a few thingslike that. twnedaround by a good, caring, competent teacher, that parent would give almost anything to that teacher in Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, would the minister tell us gratitude. But the world does not work that way. approximately how many she received? Would it be more or less than 100, say? The union itself has put levels that say in terms of competence therea is level, and we seethat in allareas of Mrs. Mcintosh: I did not count them up, but say government and in big, wide systems where a teacher is between 70 and 110, something like that; a pile about a teacher isteacher, and ifyou are a Class IV, Step 1 you that high, however many that would be. willget a certainwage. There is no way to honour those who are superb, and unfortunately that is part of the Ms. Friesen: But, effectively, Mr. Chairman, we will downside of the great equalizer that is built into the have to take the minister's word fo r the variations of compensation packages. expression on those cards, because they willnot become part of the public record in this first instance. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, my question was, what will happen to those pink cards, andthe minister said she is Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, you do not have to take treating them as submissions to herself, some of which my word fo r it ifyou choose not to. IfI do not submit she might send on to the commission ifshe believes that them, they willnot be counted as part of the submission would be appropriate. to the panel, and ifI do submit them, then they will be counted. I may call some of the people who have been Perllapscan I ask the minister, since she is saying that good enough to put their names and addresses on them the vast majority of these-or perhaps I should ask, what and seeif they want themin, but you know, some of them proportion of these does the minister believe are-how thatjust hadthree or fou r words across, I got the message would she classifY them? The vast proportion are prettyclearly, but I amnot sure that they are the kind that supporting the minister's position, or there is a 50-50 you would want to have tabled publicly. 1108 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Be that as it may, I do not mean tohave the panel the policy proposal she says we have in the document is consider things that were sent to me that were obviously printed, because I do not see it. not addressed to the panel and that were not in response tothe written submission. They were not in response to Ms. Friesen: Perllaps, Mr. Chairman, it is not a dispute Enhancing Accountability, and, I guess, like any other over the facts, but a dispute over the wording. Thisis a private correspondence, the member is quite right, I have government document. This is a government discussion no objection to those entire comments of mine being paper. One of the issues that the government has discounted,because if I do not submit them, then there is proposed fordiscussion is the question of whether or not no documentationthat they even exist. So, if you do not teachers should benefit financiallyfrom additional years want to count them, do not count them. It does not of education. I am looking at this, as teachers were and bother me. I figure they were sent to me, for me. other people were at those hearings, in the context of otherchanges thatare being considered in other areas of Ms. Friesen: One of the other areas that people have teacher education. greatconcern about in this document is its discussion of - teacher education and rewards fo r education, incentives I suppose, first of all, I would like to ask the minister, for further education, and hence the encouragement of since this is her paper, why she raised that issue, and :furthereducation. Clearly, that is one ofthe options that does she herself believe, or not believe, that additional the docwnent talksabout, quite forcefullyin some areas, years of education should be rewarded and/or thatfurther education does not necessarily make a better encouraged? teacher. I believe there were some concerns generally expressed around this same time about the whole area of Mrs. Mcintosh: I think it is well known that I support teacher education and the various policy changes that lifelong learning and that I support, as do most people, seem to be being considered, both in this document and people in anyprof ession acquiring additional skills that as a result of the Shapiro first report. will assist them in enhancing and developing in that profession. I stilldo not see the policy-she says thatwe SoI amasking the again,in issueof policy, where does hada proposal in here. the minister see the proposals in this document fitting into teacher education overall? We have raised a question. It is a question that has been raised by trustees for over a decade. Most Mrs. Mcintosh: For clarification, Mr. Chairman, could everybody in the education systemknows what is meant the member please read the specific proposals that she by thisquestion. Thequestion was raised for discussion. says we have regarding extra education for teachers? I It is a discussion document. There are only five amnot aware of anyprop osals in the ocumd ent. I know proposals in the document. They all relate to the it was raised for discussion, asking what was the merit, collective bargaining dispute resolution mechanism with but she hasindicated thatwe have policy proposals here, therequest fo r us toreceive more if there are more. and couldshe readinto them therecord please and tell me what pages they are on so I canrespond properly? We thena have series ofquestions for discussion. This question does not propose a policy. It raises the Ms. Friesen: Whatthis document does-for example, on question. It essentially says, do you think there is page 20, this government document raises the question, sufficient benefit from paying teachers for acquiring andone assumesthis isthe minister speaking, of whether additional years of education? The answer could be yes, or not the educational system in Manitoba derives but the member chooses not to see that as a logical sufficient benefit from paying teachers for acquiring answer. The asmember sumes, asdoes the union, that the additional years of education, particularly in the absence answer willbe no. I do not know whythey would make of any measurement to indicate a particular teacher's that assumption. I do not know why the membermakes performance is improved as a resultof this education. that assumption when we say, does Manitoba derive sufficient benefit from paying teachers for acquiring Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, that is where the question is additionalyears ofeducation? The rest of the sentence is, raised I wonder if the member could tell me now where particularly the absence of any measurement to indicate April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1109
a particular teacher's perfonnance has improved as a banquet. We honoured those people. They were result ofthis educ ation. wonderful people. The plays and the dramas and the teams and the choirs and the things that they didjust Themember assumes the answerwill be no. I first of madethe division wonderful. I will always be grateful to allwonder why she makes that assumption and does not them, and I will hold a banquet fo r them anyday of the also assumethe answer couldjust as easily be yes. Or,if weekas long as I have enoughmoney to do it. the answer should be we would derive more benefit if there were some way of evaluating teachers to do just The memberknows, or oughtto knowif she hasbeen what I said in my earlier answer, how do you reward at all following education over the last decade in the those superlative teacherswho go over and above the call kindergarten to Grade 12 sense, that there are a lot of of duty? We knowthere are many, and there is no ability teachers who go out and get educational degrees for to reward them. special interests of their own that do not really apply to the classroom. I will give an example. It is not a I canrecall in our school division when I was a trustee Manitoba example, so I amsaf e to do it, andthe person wanting to hold anappreciation night for teachers who involved has retired. But a phys ed departmenthead, a did extracurricularactiviti es. Inour naivete we said, gee, very good phys ed teacher, one of the best, terrificphys you have allthese teachers that coach basketball; they do edteacher, no concerns there, went out and got a degree. dramas;they do wonderful things; they stay after school; I fo rget what the degree was in, but it had something to they do it on their own time, they are just wonderful, do with business accounting. wonderful people. Let us have a banquet, bring them all in, give thema nice dinner and thankthem publicly fo r He got thatdegree because he owneda sporting goods their efforts. store which he ran at the lake in the summerand needed that acumen, that expertise, to be able to better run his We ended up doing it over theprotestations of the store. Do you think that his school board should have Manitoba Teachers' Society which told us, and we got hadto bump himup to another pay level because he got into quite a heated debate, you are honouring teachers fo r that degree when (a) he did not get it for the school and doing extracurricular activities, and by doing thatyou are (b) it had nothing to do with physical education? There implying to all the others that they are not deserving of are some who enter into that category who fee l they appreciation andrecognition. Allteachers are equal, they should get the extra money. are all paid the same, they are all treated the same, and fo r you to single out people for special recognition the Now, maybethe opposition members fee l they should, way you are doing is to make the rest of them feel bad. but I think it is a legitimate question to raise, and you know that most people who have been asking this I canremember standing therewith my mouth hanging questionover the years know that it relates to that kind of open and talking to the local association and saying I situation, not to a kindergarten teacher who goes out and cannot believe I hear yousaying this. We had well over gets extra learning experience in early childhood 100 teachers that we wanted to honour; we had not just development. Extra learning experience in early picked out a couple. When I said that we have like a childhooddevelopment for a kindergarten teacher would roomfull of people here that we wish to honour, they said beabsolutely applicable, appropriate and worth spending that is the point. Ifyou had only picked out theone or some extra money on. Thatis the situation aroundwhich two top-notch ones, thatwould have been maybe all right the question is being asked. but by singling outso manyyou are implying that the rest arenot doing a goodjob. I said we are not implying any Most people who were aware of the issue as not an such thing. He was really remarkable. I could not uncommon issue-it has been discussed for, as I say, a believe it. decade-understand that is why it is being asked. One of the presenters at the hearings-and themember may not * (1710) have been there-who was a professor at the university, But that is offtopic. How do you? We did, we hadan asked the very same question. It is one that has been annualbanquet. To heck withthem. We hadthe annual askedby countless people over theyears . It is not a new 1110 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
question. It is not a question that attacks theimportance ability of that particular phys ed teacher to deal in of furthering education. It, in fa ct, asks the people who business administration. Skills fo r independent living, see the question to provide anansw er. Itinvites a good for example, the entrepreneurship thathe is suggesting, reason in support of financial and rewarding further may, in fact, be very useful ifthe school chose to use education. It is all in how you read it. them.
I suppose themember 's point thatshe is trying tomake Sport has become a business, whether it is theJets or is that people who fee l threatened or angry by the whether it is people who are dealing at the community docmnent are going to read it in the negative as she does level. I would have thought there was an opportunity and assume the answer should be no. People who fee l there for curriculum linkages and fo r the use of a quite positive will itread and asswne the answer should be yes. unusual combination of skills. There is no proposal or policy being put fo rward in this paper. The member is highly literate, is highly The minister is indicating really just that particular
knowledgable about the use of words, extremelyskilled person's intent. I think the result of it is something - in the use of words and should realize that this is a which could be very valuable for the schools, but that is question that invites an answer and not aproposal. I if it was appropriately,used and I am sure thatI would mean,even I can seethat, and the member does not credit havethought that thewould minister have seenthat as an me with a great deal of native intelligence, but I can opportunity for schools to relate to. understand the difference between a question and a proposal. My question, then, perhaps should be more pointed. Theminister said she is raising this in this paper simply I think that inherent in there is, do you get sufficient for discussion. Can the minister tell us whether she benefit frompaying teachers for additional years? Ifyou believesthat the educational systemin Manitoba derives do, then the answer, ofcourse, willbe yes. Ifyou do not, sufficient benefit from paying teachers for acquiring why doyou not? Would you ifthere were sufficient ways additional years of education? to indicate the performance that is enhanced by those extrayears ofeducation? kinds What of education would Mrs. Mcintosh: I have to indicate thatI was not just be appropriate? What ones should automatically result talkingabout the intent. I wasnot just indicating intent. in a raise? What other ones should result in an I was saying, do we get sufficient benefit from taking a examination of the issue? What other ones should course-and the key word there is "sufficient," because automatically be denied? Are those questions that have anything you learn will obviously be of some benefit. applicability? Are people afraid to discuss this issue, or The key word in there is "sufficient" Do you get is this one of those issues that you cannot ask this sufficientbenefit in the phys edclass to warrant an extra question because, whenyou askthis question, people get some thousand dollars peryear to have a phys edteacher upset? who knows how to balance an accounting book? The member fee ls that there would be manyparent councils I personallysupport lifelong learning. I thinkteachers who wouldfeel theywould get sufficient benefit to spend who get education that is applicable to their area of thousands ofdollars to have a phys edteacher who knows expertise should have that recognized. I think the how to balance accounting books. example I gave, though, of someone who gets an extra degree to run a summer business, it has nothing to do I amnot so surethat I would be able to findvery many with the subject he teaches, should not get credit fo r parentcouncils whowould agree, but, then, we do differ, teaching on that particular example. That is a real becauseyou could take that to great extremes, and,when example, by the way. It is not a made upone . you are counting dollars as school boards are, as the member has indicated-school boards are concerned, in Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I am interested by the her opinion, because the of cuts, even though they were minister'sreal example, and I expectthat she and I would concerned about these very issues 10 years ago when actuallyagree that a school division with imagination, a there were no cuts. School boards, I believe, watch for parent council group might be very interested in the valuethey wherever go.am I not surethat a lot of school April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1111
c01mcils, orparent councils, or school boards would fee l teachers what they observe to be true benefits of extra that there would be sufficient benefit. Ifthe member education. wantsto readthis sentence again, it does say sufficient in it. That is a key word because, obviously, obviously, We have seenmany. We have seen teachers who have there will always be some benefit. There will always be gone off and got degrees in educational administration, some benefit. Those that directly apply, the benefit is extremely helpful to them in the system particularly for obvious, and, in my opinion, would be sufficient. moving into principalships or vice-principalships, very applicable, very appropriate, very worthy of monetary I was hoping that I might get some fee dback from recompense. teachers on how they fe lt about this issue so that we could talkabout it. I washoping that teachers would say, I know we are running out of time, Mr. Chairman. well, I got a degree in anthropology, and I teach English, Yesterday, if I may, we had indicated we would table but I found it very useful because, when Hamlet stood some documents today, and I am fearful I will runout of with Yorick's skull-I do not know, you know, but they time. I fo rgot yesterday to table them. IfI may table could maybe draw some parallel. I was hoping teachers them now so that the committee hasthem. would answer that question fo r us, but they chose to ignore it and simply say that we should not have asked Mr. Chairman, Ihave the fo rm for merit increments the question, and that is unfortunate. that was asked fo r that we use in the Department of Education and Training, and I have the Manitoba
* (1720) Education and Training performance management program. Itis rather thick, but I have several copies there I understand theunio n's strategy, but I thinkit was not which I will 1eave with you. Then we have the executive helpful. Perhaps, and there is still time, and as I office salaries, the increment gross pay less reduced indicated before, I am always in contact with the union workweekand annualthe salary, and again several copies executive and with the trustees ' executive, and I think fo r you there. there may be some willingness to discuss answers to the questions as opposed to just saying, you must not ask the For information, we had a question posed by the question; the question makes me uncomfortable; the memberfor Inkster(Mr. Lamoureux) about We Care and question, ifansw ered a certainway , willnot be an answer what kind of funding they might have received from I like, and, therefore, we will not answer it at all. government. We have checked through. We Care did receive support from Workforce 2000 in 1991-92. They Well, after 10 years of the question being asked, in received approximately $7,000. It was one of about 750 days of financial constraint and ever-growing costs and small businesses that had training contracts that were new technologies, why should we be afraid to discuss approved that year. We have had about 2,800 training questions that are put fo rward in a discussion paper? contracts with other small businesses uptill last year, and This is a discussion paper. I believe it even says on the of course we now have discontinued that portion of the front, discussion paper, does it not? A discussion program and are now into sectoral training. document It clearly says it is fo r discussion. It does not say proposals. It does not say white paper. It does not There areno other programs that we have been able to say green paper. It does not say proposals for discover thathave provided any funding to theWe Care consideration. It says, this is a discussion document. company. We looked at the Employment Development Programs branch, et cetera, and, Mr. Chair, I do not have Hopefully, we still have opportunity fo r a discussion any documentation on it, but those are the figures the becauseI thinkcould teachers be tremendously helpful in member fo r Inkster had asked and I did promise that I discussing these questions to let us know what benefits would table or readinto the record theamount. So it was they do perceive from their extra education, what they fee l one of 750 small businesses that received a training issuffi cient. Discuss it with trustees. Tell trustees how contract in 1991-92. The amount wasjust a little over they benefit from this extra education. Let trustees tell $7,000. It was $7, 100 and something. 1112 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, can I repeat the question I very useful to her in teaching music in school. Is that asked theminister last time, andthat waswhether or not sufficient benefit to the employer? she believes the educational system in Manitoba derives sufficient benefit from paying teachers fo r acquiring I had hoped we could have had a discussion with additional years of education. teachers and trustees on that topic, and I amhoping we still canbecause I intend to continue meeting with them Mrs. Mcintosh: For certain fo rms of education, free from the cameras andthe glare and the adversarial absolutely. I say fo r certain fo rms of education, sensationalism that surrounds public things. I am not absolutely, but I do not think you cananswer that totally goingto oommitmy final answer to that question prior to in isolation from other related matters. I think you have havinghad discussthose ions or prior to hearing feedback to look at the nature of the education, the context in from the panel that aroundcirculated the province getting which it is being pursued. In other words, is the information fo r me on that very topic. additional education the only means fo r increasing the
salary? You know, there are a wide range of things of Mr. Chairperson: Order,please. The hour now being - thatnature , but I think any education acquired should be 5:30 p.m., committee rise. looked at to see if there is sufficient benefit in the classroom to warrant providing extra money fo r the HEALTH acquiring of that education. You will always get some benefit. Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Connnitteeof Supply come to order. This section ofthe Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, whom does the minister think Conmritteeof Supplyhas been dealing with the Estimates should be making that determination? of theDepartment of Health. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber atthis time. Mrs. Mcintosh: Again, Mr. Chairman, I had really hoped that teachers would have provided us with some The item before the committee is 1.(b)( 1) and the insight into this, and I regret very deeply that they chose motion of the honourable member fo r Kildonan (Mr. not tooffer any thoughts on the pic.to I would really like Chomiak). to yet have a chance. I do dialogue with, as I said, the union executive and other teachers who are friends of Mrs. Shirley Render(St. Vital): Mr. Chairman, I am mine because having been a teacher by background, the pleased to speak in support of our Minister of Health
maj ority of the circle offriends I move in still happen to (Mr. McCrae), in fact, both of our ministers of Health, - be teachers. You do not lose those bonds. But I still ourgovernment which has beenworking hardto bring in hope toreceive some feeling fromteachers as to that very health reform. It is absolutely necessary to bring in question so that I can answer it and be able to, in my health care reform because that isthe only way we are answer, reflect some of how theyfee l. going to maintain a good health care system for us, fo r our children, for our grandchildren and fo r future Right now, to be quite blunt with you, no teacher has generations. told me the details of how they fee l about that question. They have indicated that we should not have asked the Our Minister of Health is working hard to bring this question, and some teachers in the panel presentations about, but it is humannature to resist change, and that have expressed great insult that the question was asked probably, Mr. Chairman, is the biggest problem that we and have indicated that alleducation is useful. I concur have-fear of change. that all education is useful, and I concur you never lose when you learn something. From theother side also we see fear of a service being delivered byother government than I thinkthe other side I have a daughter who has a degree in music forgets thatgov ernment ishere to provide a service. We performance. She is not a music performer, but that are not here to provide jobs. We are here to provide a degreeis extremely beneficial to her. She happens to be service. Probably this is the most important point that a schoolteacher. That degree, to me, I think is probably can be made, and it is one that is relevant to all April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1113 departments. It does notmatter whether we are talking honourablemember from St. Vital (Mrs. Render) has the about Health or Education, Family Services, Highways, floor at this time. Justice, you name it, government is here to provide a service. An Honourable Member: Oh, oh.
Now all governments at all leve1s in all provinces are Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We will maintain strugglingto cut costs to maintain services. We all need decorumin theChamber today, orwe will not be carrying to live within our means, to bring down interest on fo r toolong. payments. We have all heard criticisms over the past decadeabout government, and it does not matter whether Mrs. Render: Let me just repeat again. Ifyou are a we are talking federal, provincial, municipal personof integrity, you willgive goodvalue regardless of governments. whom you work fo r, whether you work fo r the private sector, whether you work fo r government. We have all heard that all government employees are fat cats, overpaid. We have got too much bureaucracy. Now let me just give you a wee bit of history on horne Well, you know, there is a grain of truth. One of the care here in Manitoba. It was started not by the mainthings that all of us have heard, ifwe are all honest government in the rnid-'70s; it was started by a private enough to admit it, is that government does not provide organization in the late 1960s. I know, because I was enough service. part of that private organization. I worked fo r the Victorian Order of Nurses, and I helped along with one Now oneof theways to keepa handle on expenditures other individual establish what was then known as the is tocon tractout, to introduce some form of competition, Horne Help Service. That was the service that provided in other words, to go to the private sector. I take great the non-nursing service to patients. offence to those particularly on the other side that going to the private section, or going to a private company, is Mr.Chairman, the Leaderof the Oppositionsaid today somehow or other going to be providing a lesser kind of thatprivatizing horne care would mean a revolving kind a service, a poor quality of service. of service. He is absolutely wrong. The VON, the service that I worked for, provided consistent good care. Aremembers on theother side saying that health care And yes, there were times when a homemaker did not workers that work for a private nursing horne are provide good service, but that homemaker wasreleased . somehow or other providing a lesser quality of service? It is like any profession. There is always the goodand Are memberson the other side saying that carpenters who the not-so-good, the average and the not-so-good. But do not work fo r government are somehow providing a wein theprivate sector were able to do something about shoddy kindof service? Are members on the other side it. sayingengineers that who workfor a private company are providing a lesser service? Museum workers, ministers * (1540) who do not work fo r government, are they because they One ofthe things that we did in the private sector was are in a private sector somehow providing a lesser we tried very hard to match the patient with the quality? A poorer quality? homemaker. Before the patient was discharged from hospital, I went out to the hospital, met the patient, tried I take great offence that anybodywho is working fo r toget a senseof thatperson's personality so I could tryto theprivate sector is somehow or other providing a lesser matchthe homemaker to the needs thatof patient. I met kindof service. Ifyou are a person of integrity, you will with the horne care worker, the horne care co-ordinator at give good value regardless of who you work fo r. A the hospital. There was only one individual at that person of integritywill give- particular time. I talked to the doctor, I talked to the fa mily, to see what kind of care was needed. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Ifthe members who wantcarry to on this conversation across the way want to We worked veryhard to match the needs ofthe patient do so, I would appreciate they do so in the hall. The to the homemakers that we had available. The VON 1114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 provided a very flexible service and thatis thekind of "I provide quality care," saysthis writer, "to ourclients thing thatcan providedbe in the private sector. We were andhad to beexperienced to behired by either company. able to be flexible, we were able to adapt quickly to the I graduatedfrom the samenursing school, have the same needs. Regretfully, since then our home health has been code of ethics and have to have my nursing licence fee sort of swallowed up by government, I guess you could paid yearly. say, andsometimes, regretfully I have to say, government moves very slowly, andwe cannot move as quickly as we "As a pediatric nurse, I work with many home-care want to. We cannot be quite as adaptable or as flexible clients and fee l equally qualified, although I do not have as we wantto. the privilege of having mostly daytime hours.
I understand that some of the services that we are "All home-care workers, government or private, are providing now, some of the after-hour services, so to initially new to clients. The only reason government speak,of some those seven-day-a-week services, some of homehas care case consistency is that private companies the intravenoushome services are already being provided provide reliefhoursgovernment when home-care workers - by a private company, not by a governmentworker. We cannotfill the hours needed client.by a I know thatwhen have already proved that a private company does work, Olsten Quality Care has a new client, they tryvery hard andI findit veryhypocritical that members opposite have to maintainof consistency carehavi by ng the same nurses forgottenabout all of the complaints that they brought to attendthe same case. thislegis lature in 1993, all of the literature that they put out acrossthe city during the 1993 by-election, all of the "I amproud to wotk fo r OlstenKimberly Quality Care complaints about home care that they said. asa pediatricnurse and equallyproud to work for Drake Medox, providing relieffo r staffin hospitals and nursing Well, Mr. Chairman, we have worked hard to try to services." dealwith thosecomplaints . We have solved some of the problems, butwe have notbeen able to solve all of them. This issigned, Mr. Chairman,Shead. byIrene One of the ways that we have been able to solve the problemofflexibilty, of adapting quickly to the needs of Again,I justwant tothat reiterate a privatelyrun home the clientby being able toprovide more service thanwhat care can be just as good, because it depends upon the we are able to give within government itself, is by individual, it depends upon the standards that we as contracting out, is by going out to a private company. government are setting. we And do have standards; we will be monitoring them. Again,om thebott line isthat So, as I say, I find it very hypocritical thatmembers wemust continue toprovide the service. We arehere to opposite a few years ago were complaining about the ensure that service will continue into the future. Thank home careservice andnow all of a sudden it isabsolutely you. perfect. Now, I just think it is rather coincidental in today's Free Press, Monday, April 22, there is letter to Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family the editor andit iscalled : Private care has quality. This Services): I, too, would like to rise to speak to the iswritten by a nurse,and I want to quote: "I have been motion and more specifically to the support of our wanting to write this letter for sometime and hesitated Ministerof Health (Mr. McCrae) and our government for because I don't want mudslinging between government the hard work andthe commitment and the service that home care and private agencies. this government has given to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson, I think we only need go back a year ''I'm a registered nurse working fo r two private ago, I guess it was April 25, to the last election, where agencies, Olsten Kimberly Quality Care and Drake wereceived support from Manitobans for us to continue Medox. I take offenceat the premise that people will die to govern. ifnot looked after by government home-care services. I empathize with compromised clients and realize how Mr. Chairperson, we have governed and, I believe, difficult it will be for them and their fa milies to change governed well since 1988 under very difficult times, workers. times when governments have not had the revenues April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1115 coming in that they had in the '60s and the '70s, times should have a monopoly. We have the MGEU and the when people of Manitoba and all Canadians have been union for home care workers thathas, in essence- saying it is time that government started to live within theirmeans and it is time that governments started to get Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am having great a handle on where the money was going. We all know difficulty-if the members want to carry on the that in our own personal lives we have to budget, we conversation, I would appreciate that they do so in the have to balance that budget, and we cannot continue to loge. The honourable minister, to continue. overspend. Otherwise we lose everything we have. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thankyou. As I said, we have had Mr. Chairperson, governments are no different. We the MGEU that has, in essence, hada monopoly over the have to learn to spend the money that we generate and woik in thehome carefield for a long period of time now, thatwe bring in in a very wise and reasonable way. Our and I know that there are certain components of home government, I think,has demonstrated our ability to cope care that have been contracted out, some without a and to make the right decisions when we placed the competitive process and, I think, more recently, some highest priority on Health, on Education and on Family with a competitive process. The competition is a healthy Services continually since 1988. That is where the thing. I believe that anyone that works in the health care maj ority ofthe money is spent, and that is where we have fieldand the home care field is committed to thejob that placed the emphasis and the priority. they do, andI do not thinkit matterswhom theywork for.
Every other departmentwithin government has had to I havea background in the health care field, and it did sacrifice and take less, because we have made a not matterwhich hospital I worked in or where I worked. commitment as a government to health, to education and My firstand f oremost commitment andresponsibility was to fa mily services. It is clear that no other province to the patient that I looked after, and I triedto do that to across thecountry as spends much of its budget on health the best of my ability. I believe that there are those that care. Some 33.8 percent of our budget this year is work for government in the home care field that are allocatedto health care. Mr. Chairperson, we know that committed and dedicated; I believe there are those that within that health care budget a considerable amount of work for the private companies that are committed and money and an increasing amount of money has gone to dedicated. I do not thinkit matters whom you work for; home care. The budget for home care has over doubled I think it matters how committed you are to the people since 1988. There is more money in the budget this year that you serve. I believe it canhappen with any person for home care. I think it is some $8 million more for working for any agency. If the commitment and the home care. dedicationare there, they willensure that their patients get good service. * (1550) I argue that there is absolutely no reason, or there I donot know howmuch is enough, and I am notsure . should be no reason, to fear the competitive process in
We have said many times befo re as a government more health care. We are going to need more and more people money does not necessarily mean better care, but we are in the community delivering home care into the futme, looking to tryto find the best way possible to serve the and if we canhave more organizations and more people needs of Manitobans as our population ages. That is a involved in that profession, we are going to be able to reality, Mr. Chairperson. More peopleare going to need servethe people thatneed that service in a better fa shion. home careinto thefutme, not less. We see also as people aremovi ng out of hospitals and into the community, and themove towards decentralization, we are in fact having I have tothink that theideologically driven opposition, to provide more care out of the institutions. NewDemocratic opposition, in this House is putting the unions andtheir union bossesfar ahead of the people that Mr. Chairperson, how do we possibly come to grips need the service. I am extremely disappointed to hear withthat reality and tryto spend and manage our dollars them ranting andorchestrating the kind of unrest that we wisely? I do not believe that any one group in society areseeing, and many of those people that are working in 1116 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 home care presently that are MGEU members do not are many, many concerns about the issue that has been want to be out on strike. Theywant to be there looking raised in this House, and I want to indicate too that we after their patients, and I thinkit is the ideology and the continue to work hard to ensure that the people of rumour-mongering that is spread by union bosses and Manitoba whorequire these essential services are in fact members of the New Democratic Party that does no receivingthem. However, I note with a great amount of service to thosethat are working there and committed to concern that there are home care attendants who are in their patients and those that need that kind of care and fa ct on strike who are using intimidation tactics to that kind of support in our community. persuade others not to work. Indeed, we hada letter from a very frightened woman, We arelooking atpilot projectsthat will provide some and the member from Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) might competitive process in the marketplace, and I would thinknothing of intimidation tactics by union members, encourage members of the opposition, rather than but I for one amconcerned about them. This particular standing up in this House and in the media and in the woman had been assigned to a client, a client who was community dayafterday trying to whip up the troops and still at home, wanting to receive care at home, andhad - fearmonger and spread information that is incorrect out gone out to that home in a rural area. This is a woman there, tosit down with their friends, the union leadership, catedto providing healthcare to these workers. Two andhelp themdevelop a bid to compete for thejobs that dedi home care attendants who were on strike fo llow this will be available. I thinkthat might be a very positive worker from the client's home out in the country, an process, and, quite frankly. ifthey could work very co isolated area, to a location near her home. This country operatively with theirunion bosses and indicate to them roadwas blocked by water, anda series of vehicles were thatthere is the opportunity and have them come fo rward turning around. This woman who was attempting to and putin a bid, they mighteven surprise themselves and continue providing services, her carwas stopped. These win some of the work in one of the quadrants of the city two strikers came up to her car, in this isolated area, of Winnipeg. I think that would be a very positive came over to her vehicle and started to threaten her, option. started to threaten her with fines ofa thousand dollars from the union, that the union would fine her for helping I do not want to stand and criticize. I just thinkthey people. have to get beyond, in the opposition, the New Democratic opposition, their hidebound ideology and sit Hereis a womanon anisolated country road being met down and look at how they can work with the union by two thugs who arefrighteni ng anelderly woman. Her bosses tothe benefit ofthe patients that need the care and name, they said her name would beput on a black list, - put in a proposal that might see them win some of the andshe wouldnever again be accepted by her co-workers work in the city of Winnipeg. when the strike was over. They threatened to put her nameand a picture over a local newspaper. Then, when Mr. Chairperson,my understanding is throughout rural some traffic came by, these two brave thugs were Manitoba that things are going fairly well. In the cityof intimidated themselves and thought they should move Winnipeg things are a little different. I know the away, and so this woman had an opportunity then to Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) may have the leave. She turned her vehicle around and proceeded to opportunity to stand up and report on where the strike is drive, and, again, she was stoppedby these two strikers, atand whatof kind service is being provided, but I think these two people who themselves hadno respect for the it is important for the opposition to look at this in a vulnerable of Manitoba. But what is worse is that they constructive way to encourage their friends, the union attempted to dissuade her from providing these services. bosses, to sit down and spend their time productively Andso shewas met by these two health care attendants developing proposals to meet the needs of those people whatan ironic title "health care attendants"-intim idating, thatneed it. intimidatingpeople wantingwork, to andthey swung into her lane of trafficand fo llowed her. Bon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chairperson, I amhappy to have this opportunity to put Now, the member from.Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) might a fewcomments record. on I do wishto indicate that there notbe frightened about driving down a country road and April22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1117 being stopped by two maleindividu als. And where is the this is an attitude that comes down from the union. It is member :fromOsborne (Ms. McGifford) who always talks anattitude that comes down from the union and tells us about women's rights? And we have two thugs, two exactly where the union stands, where the union bosses people on strike, stopping these individuals from standon this particular issue. wmking. This is a woman, then, who immediately went to her supervisor and reported the incident; she would Over the weekend, this is what the union said to the still like to work but cannot because of these threats. government negotiators in respect of essential services. As you know, we have been attempting to deal on a Where does the NDP stand? Where does the NDP voluntary basis with aness ential services agreement. In stand on supporting workerswho want to deal with these everysingle situation the governments and the unions, in vulnerable people, who wantto give this help. I willtell fact, have been able to agree on an essential services you, the NDP does not care because of the comic antics agreement. In this particular case, whenwe are dealing thatthe member from Dauphin is engaging in right at this with the most vulnerable, the union says no. Not only moment. He does not care. He does not care about the does the union say no, Mr. Chairperson, you know what rural women who, in fa ct, say, I believe that we have a they say? They say it is our position-and these are the responsibility to look after thevulnerab le in our society. union's words-that the fact that functionally dependent He does not care. clients are in jeopardy. They admit they are in jeopardy without anessential services agreement, and they say it The member from Crescentwood(Mr. Sale) is spouting remains the government's responsibility. offfrom his seat. He will have an opportunity to stand up, and he will be able to tell the people of Manitoba The home care workers who wantto work are being where, in fact, he stands . Let the people of Manitoba intimidatedby the mrion bosses andbeing encouraged by know where he stands. this kind of language from the union, threatened with fines, threatened with blackmail, and I do not expect any * (1600) understanding on this part from members opposite, becausethey do supportthat kind ofactivity; because not Point of Order oncehave theystood up and said we support the rightof people towork ifpeople choose to work in this province. Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I believe, yes, on a point oforder, the member speakingjust relinquished the floor and asked me to respond to a question which I There is a right to work in this province, and we would be glad todo, soI believe ifyou refer to his words believe in it We believe thatpublic servants who choose you will find that he has relinquished the floor. to helpothers should be given that opportunity. We will not standwith the NDP and say, let us intimidate women Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable on isolated country roads by sending health care member does not have a point of order. attendants-the irony of that, to send other health care attendantsto intimidate women, middle-aged women who
* * * are trying to make a living and taki ng care of the vulnerable people, that these people now are saying do Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to not do it, ifyou do it you are going to be fined by the continue. union, you are going to be blacklisted.
Mr. Toews: I indicated, for the record, andthe record Well, there is no such law in Manitoba that would will indicate that I said, when he has the opportunity to prevent workers :from exercising their public speak, he can tell where he stands, on the side of the responsibility, and this government will continue to union thugs or on the side of people who care about support workers against union bosses who carenothing Manitobans, who want to deliver that service. One could fo r workers, who care nothing for the people of say, perhaps this is just an isolated event. Well, I can Manitoba, and who careonly fo r themselves. Thankyou, indicate, Mr.Chair, thatthis is not aniso lated event, that Mr.Chairperson. 1118 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996
Ron. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural anything. They are happy to be able to provide the Development): I would like to put a fe w comments on services tothe peoplethat needthem. the record with regard to this particular issue and this particular topic, Mr. Chairman . I would have to agree I can relate a personal story because my father is one with my colleague, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), who receives home care services. There was a time of who hasjust put on the record some of the realities and confusion a couple of weeks ago when my father some of the incidents that are occurring across this approached me and asked me whether or not he would province as aresult ofmrion bosses intimidatinginnocent have to begin paying for all the services that he was people who are trying to do theirjob. receivingbecause this is what theunion wastelling their members. My fa ther approachedme and said, is it true, Since theMinister of Labour stoodup on his fee t, the Len, that in fact we will have to pay fo r the services? member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) has continually Therewas no truth in itwhatsoever , but this message was laughedand snickered at the comments that the Minister coming down from whom? Who was the message of Labour has put on the record. I think this is coming downfr Point of Order They go on to say that: "Clear articulation of core services is also essential to ensure that basic Home Care Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Point of order, needs are met." The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) Kildonan, Mr. Chairperson, I have been listening very has for a week now gotten up and read portions of a patiently to comments, very inciteful comments, by 1986-87 report into the records, a Price Waterhouse members opposite, but I think that the member, by report commissioned by the NDP government, indicating that people are lying, besmirches the commissionedbecause we knewthat home care needed to reputationof everyone in this House, and I think he ought adapt andto evolve. Unfortunately, we were prevented to withdraw those comments. from acting on that report in an appropriate way. But thisgo vennnent has eighthad long years to do even a few Mr. Derkach: If that offends members opposite, I of the things that were identified in that study that needed withdraw thosecomment s. attention. They might not have agreed with all the items that Price Waterhouse recommended. Indeed, our party Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister fo r would not agree with many of the suggestions for user that. fees, for example. Nevertheless, some real issues were identified and this government has had eight long years * * * with which towork at the question of appropriate home care delivery. They have done virtuallynothing in that * (1610) time to improve and strengthen this system and to deal with the increasing caseload, client load, complexity of Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to cases, technology available in the homes to deliver home conclude. care. Mr. Derkach: I did not want to in any way offend Mr. Acting Chairperson, in the Connie Curran study members opposite, but let me say to conclude that I think whichwas finally tabled on Friday, there are five projects members opposite should rethink their positions and recommended. [interjection] Oh, I am glad to see the should rethink the strategy that they are taking with Minister of Health is listening here. There are five regard to this situation and indeed allow Manitobans to projects recommended to the Minister of Health fo r his deliver the services thatthey have been hired to deliver. consideration. Thankyou very much. First of all, Ms. Curran'swork teams recommended Mr. Sale: In addressing this motion, I am, first ofall, that there be a project testing outreach from nursing driven to the documents which the Minister of Health homes. I would invitethe minister to table any work that (Mr. McCrae) so reluctantly and so slowly tabled and so was done in this regard. Ms. Curran's work team incompletely tabled in this House over the past week. It suggested thata screeningtool needed to be developed in is striking, Mr. Chairperson, that the government hasyet some great detail and she provided some evidence why to table a shred of evidence in fa vour of their proposals. thiswas the case. I would invite the minister to table the Infact, everything that theyhave tabled goes against the screening tool. The same team recommended that there proposal of privatization in Winnipeg. be a new project, a pilot project to examine hospital community referral process. I would invite the minister (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) to table the results of that pilot project for us to tmderstand. There wasanother suggestion that we should Let me first quote from page 6 of the Advisory redesignthe service delivery model and that is on page 8 Committee:"The Advisory Committee would consider it of one of the appendices of thisparticular document. I irresponsible to transfer the present program to a Home could just quote from this page. The work teams Care Agency" -let alone private home care delivery recognized that the issue ofthe problem-the fix of agencies-"without first articulating clear program individual program delivery components, that is-will not standards that form the basis for measuring program achieve the goals of restructuring. A redesign of the approaches and activities in all regions." service system is necessary, et cetera. ll20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 Mr. Acting Chairperson, I amhav ing some difficulty cuts to health care, the Established Programs Financing with the chirping from the member in the back bench. I Act, and provincial government's unwillingness to wonder ifyou mightcall himto order. protect elements of the system-notice, for example, the cutsto Pharm.acare, vision care, hospital care-we are on Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. our toway a two-tiered system healthof care in Canada. Thatmovement to atwo-tiered system, Mr. Chairperson, The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Could I have is greatly accelerated by the increasing priority of home order and decorum in the House, please. Thankyou. care, because home care is now the cheap way to privatize health care without having to then face the Mr. Sale: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the fifthproj ect that music in terms ofbreakingthe Canada Health Act. was recommendedis the one that I presume wasdone by the Wltendered We Carepro jectin Seven Oaks, a nursing Consumers believe that the Canada Health Act can service. Now that particular project called for an protect them ifit is enforced. They do not realize that independent, external evaluator to be attached to that home care is not covered by that act. - program.would I invite the minister to table theresults of that independent, external evaluation of theWe Care An Honourable Member: Where was Tommy program. Douglas? An Honourable Member: You supported that project. Mr. Sale: Tommy Douglas, unfortunately, has died, as the member opposite might know, and we honour his Mr. Sale: I have no idea whether it was a supportable memorytime every protect we medicare andwe besmirch projector not becausewe have never seen any evaluation his memory every time we attack it. results fromit I invite the minister to table the results of the evaluation done by an independent third party. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am very disappointed that this government has decided to gut the capacity of theCanada Health Actto I will maintaindecorum in the House. The members protect and preserve medicare. I want to talk in broad have the opportunity to put their message on the record. terms about the impact of privatizing home care. The Right now, the member for Crescentwood has the floor. minister has recognized and, indeed, hassaid on his fee t I would appreciate it ifwe listened. The honourable - onseveral ions occas thatthe Canada Health Actdoes not member for Crescentwood, to continue. protect home care. The simple reason is that back in 1977-78, when we left cost-sharing, it was not a listed Mr. Sale: Thankyou, Mr. Chairperson. service. It hadnot beenincluded under the previous cost sharing agreements across the country, so nothing there Thisis perhaps the realthreat at the heart of the home is included and protected. careprivatizati on scheme that this government is putting fo rward. There is no argument that we have used Now the minister has also pointed out that a modern nonprofit agencies to deliver health care in this country health care system is based to a great extent on the over the years very effectively. Indeed, all of our availability of a continuum of services, andhome care is hospitals are nonprofit agencies, and we applaud and the base of that continuum. A high-quality, responsive, valuetheir work. We applaud andvalue the work of the intensive home care system is a sine qua non of a good Victorian Order ofNurses as a nonprofit agency. health care system in the 1990s. You cannot have an effective and efficient hospital and health care system * (1620) without a solid home care system. But the healthcare system Canadain from the 1960s Now there is great concern on the part of many, many onwards has been a not-for-profit administered service, groups across the country that,with the federal Liberal and when you take a core health care service such as April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1121 home care and put it in the hands of fo r-profit agencies, They were very concerned, not only for their own you go straight tothe heart of gutting medicare. Because health, because they certainly had their health and were of the rolecentral thathome care now plays in health care capable of providing good care to the people that they delivery, you cannot have for-profit home care delivery werelooking after, they were concerned about the health and then still say that we have protected the medicare of the people that they were going to withdraw their system of our country, which is based on not-for-profit services from. administration. Many ofthe people that Italked to suggested that they So this minister is moving in a direction which will had not voted in favour of a strike, and quite a fe w of certainly, in the medium and the longer term, seriously them also suggested that they were not even really fully erode the universality of not-for-profit publicly understanding of the reasons of the strike. They were led administered medicare in this country. That is why to believe that the government had intentions of thousands of seniors, thousands of recipients, are rising. privatizing 100 percent of the home care services which Let me tell you, the NDP does not have the power to we know, based on the negotiating principles that have make 40,000 senior citizens get upset about something. been brought forward, that it is anoffer to privatize 25 We are not that powerful. They are upset because they percent ofthe services in Winnipeg. know their medicare system is at risk by your government's policies of privatization. We will stand I guess the only questions I might ask is thatcoming with them, with the clients and with the workers, to from a private industry where competition is day to day defeat your privatization scheme at all costs and fo r as and we adjust day to day, I really have gained an long as it takes, Mr. Minister. understanding of howunions operate. That is, basically, ifyou cankeep people in the dark long enough, they will Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I too would believe you and march forward without any thought to like to put a few words on the record in regard to the whom they are hurting or also what they are depriving home care. As of Tuesday, 6 a.m., April 16, the home people of. care attendants- Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Just to remind the I thinkthat as I check the records I do notice that this honourable member, it is the resolution moved by the government, since 1988, has increased the home care honowable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) that we budget. It has increasedmore than double. So I do not are debating at this time. I understand that he is thinkit is a consideration of anybody to suggest that this discussing home care. As long as he is relevant towards government does not have compassion and concern fo r the motion, thehonourab le member fo r Turtle Mountain, the home carepeople. Theproblem I have, again coming to continue. from the private sector, is that I see that the number of people weserve with our home care services has risen by Mr. Tweed: Inregard to the motion, thankyou. I would 11 percent since 1988, yet the costs of doing that has just like tocomment that theweekend prior to the strike, increased 111 percent. I have a real concern withthat as I hadseveral phone calls to my constituency office and to far as, are we getting more efficient? Are we delivering my home. The people that I talked to were home care home care in the best possible means? Based on these providers, and they were fe eling very, I guess, in a state numbers, simply, I would suggest that we are not. I of desertion or whatever. They had a strong concern. would thinkthat anybody that could put numbers down They werebeing threat ened by their union leaders and by on paper would suggest that ifyour amount of people the information that was being put out there falsely, I servedhas increased by 11 percent and the amount that it mightadd, thatif they provided any service to thepeople has cost you has risen by 111 percent, that is not good thatneeded the serv ice, that wantedthe service, and that economics. Even to the other side, I would think that as a government of Manitoba we were paying to provide they would be able to understand the simple facts. the service, theywould bereprimanded by their unions in the forms of fines, in the forms of blacklisting. To my I often, also in the House, Mr. Chairperson, cringe understanding, even some of them, there were threats when the word "profit" is brought up, because it seems issued. thatno matterwhat being is talked about or what is being 1122 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 suggested by thegov ernment, ifthe word "profit" enters I also think, as I sit here and listen, that the members intoit, thememb ers opposite, I would suggest, who have opposite, when they cannot win their argument with the never probably participated in a profitable industry, and fucts, theytend to get into personal attacks, obviously, on I wouldprobably liketo check resmn es to see ifthey have the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), on the First ever participated in any kind of an industry where they Minister (Mr. Filmon) andthe Minister of Labour (Mr. were judged based on their productivity instead of just Toews). Their attacks become a little tiring, but I guess showing up for theirnine-to-five times, that theymight they fee l that they are winning points with the public understand the emphasis and the desire for profit to be whenthey auack a personality instead of the government integrated into our system. or the policies thatwe arebringing fo rward. I can attest, Mr. Chairperson, that I have attended As thehonourable member for St. Vital had suggested, several meetings throughout the province with the when you suggest profit and we hear the cries and the Minister of Health. He has attended throughout rural moans from the other side, it makes me think, is Manitoba. He has attendedthroughout allof the cityof everybody that is involved in this society today that is - Winnipeg, and I do not think you will find a more involved withprofit unable to deliver the best service? It dedicated ministeras faras listening towhat the people doesnot make senseto me that profitin any term, in any have to say and trying to put the best deal fo rward for wayyou express the word "profit," would be deemed as what they are trying to do. I think he is a kind, beingbad. IfI candeliver a service to someone else at a compassionate man and he has a concern truly for the profit, and abetter service, otI cann see a problem with patient, unlikethe members opposite whose only concern that. AlthoughI do understand, again, coming from the is for the union bosses that they represent here in the opposite members' backgrounds, that that may be a House and they are the ones who are standing up to problem. support the withdrawing of services from the people of Manitoba who need it most. As I sit heretoo, I also, reading through the budget and some of the budget discussions thatwe have had,again * (1630) refer to the members opposite; here is a group of people thatvoted against a government of Manitoba adding $8- They may caj ole, they may make remarks from the million more to the home care service. sides, but I suggest to you that the members opposite stand for the union. They do not stand for the client. You talk about what is right fo r thepeople delivering They stand for the union, and they support the union in the service or what is wrong, but does it make any sense theirof withdrawal services to themost vulnerable people that you would vote against something that you are so in the ofproviD;e Manitoba I sayto that, shame. I think vigilantly defending at thispoint in time to us? You are it is a terrible shame thatthese people have to sufferfor standing up and sayingthat itwill never be good unless anideological point of view thatnot does make sense in weput more moneyinto it, and we cannot get profit into today' s changing world. The whole world is changing it because that will taint them. The people will not rapidly, andif you donot get on the ship you are going to provide the good service. I suggest, you cannot have it sink. both ways. You either vote for the increase in the spending, which you did not- and yet you stand up and So I suggest to the members opposite to take a hard defend the union's position that they would withdraw look at where home care is going, take a hard look at services from the people in Manitoba that need it most. whatthe govermnentis putting into the program and how we are going to make it better fo r the people of the As I sat here earlier today too, I saw a fo rmer member province of Manitoba. I also ask that the members of theChoices group standup and propose none. It seems opposite, when they are criticizing get away from the like, I do not know whatthe termis, but when you have personalstuff It does not have anybearing or anyeffect a name that says "choices," you would think thatyou on the peopleand the province of Manitoba. The facts would have options, but, again, we see none brought arethe facts, Mr. Chairperson, and I would suggest that forward by the members opposite. the members opposite take a hard look at their policies April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 1123 and their programs. I would suggest that theyconsider does this document, the government plan say? It says, standingwith the clients instead of with the unions when andI quote, divestiture ofall service delivery. It doesnot it comes to taking care of the people of the province of say some. It does not say partial. It says divestiture of Manitoba. Thankyou. all service delivery is the policy of Manitoba Health. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I welcome the Mr. Chairperson, they canplay games with numbers. opportunity of dealing with the resolution thatI brought They can yes,say oh, we areonly privatizing at thispoint forward that dealt specifically with the inability of the 25 percent of Winnipeg, and we are only privatizing all minister to deal with the home care problem. of thenursing services at this point. Their health policy, which theyare refusing to defend, says divestiture of all I dohave to comment on the comments of the member service delivery. Government document, cabinet who just proceeded me. I agree there ought not to be document, signed bythe Minister of Health, approved by personal attacks or condemnations in this Chamber, and the front bench. I do not know ifthe backbenchers had I implore members opposite to cease and desist. Ifone opportunityto see thisdocument. I willprovide it to you, wereto look at Hansard debates and look at the personal but it is your government, your document, your policy. comments that have been levelled, particularly by the MinisterHealth of (Mr. McCrae), at virtuallyeveryone in Members oppositelike to talkabout user fee s, andthey this Chamber, I think it is anabsolute disgrace. I agree liketo say that the union bosses or the NDP made up the with the member that the Minister of Health ought to conceptof userfee s. Where did that concept come from? cease and desist from levelling those kind of comments. Letus look in the government document. Let us look in theminister's cabinet documents, signed by the Minister Let us get a little bit of a grip on reality here in this of Health, approved by both front benches of members Chamber, Mr. Chairperson. I sat here and listened to opposite. It talksabout user fee s, it talksabout imposing debates of members opposite, and what did I hear? user fe es on home care, and let me quote from the Somehow thiswhole privatization scheme, this plot, was government document What Will Be under home care. somehow hatchedby the union movement, by the union Services to be categorized: core services, government bosses, as members have repeatedover and over again, or funded, as is today. Noncore services, customer funded, somehow it was hatched by the NDP. asis today. But wait, there is another line, core services, government/customer funded. The customer, and I hate The:fuct that virtually every health care organization in thatterm fo r clients andpatients . Customers. They make the province of Manitoba is opposing home care has no it like theyselling are sausages, but nonetheless it says in bearing on members opposite. The fact that there is no this document core services, government are customer major study or recommendation dealing with home care funded. That is user fee s. And they can say anything andjustifYing the government's decision seems to be lost they want,but their document,own their own policycalls on members opposite. fo r user fees on home care services. Where did this idea come from? Where did the What Will Be, andthe cabinet document states core privatization come from? It comes from the one services, government/customer share costs. So they may document that members opposite will refuse to blame the union movement, they may blame the NDP, acknowledge or to deal with in this Chamber and that is they may blame the Manitoba Society of Seniors, they their ownTreasury Board submission, the government's may blame the Manitoba League of the Physically submission. The minister signed this sub mission, the Handicapped, theymay blame everydisabled group in the Premier approved it, all of them front bench. The two city ofWinnipeg,may they blame the home care workers, front benches in this Chamber approved this plan, the theymay blame the home care clients. It is theirpolicy, plan to privatize home care. it istheir document, andthey cann ot shy away from that. What does this plan say? Members opposite, the This is the least referred to document in the history, I minister in fact refu ses to deal with this document suggest, of cabinet documents in the Province of because I asked himabout it in Question Period. What Manitoba, because they do not want to acknowledge it. 1124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 They do notwant to acknowledge that Manitobans know should startdebating the government policy, andwe have whatgo vernment policy is. The Minister of Health (Mr. been trying to do thatin Estimates. McCrae) refuses to deal with it. The backbenchers and members opposite refuse to deal with it. Instead, the Thatwhy is we have beenquestioning theminister , and Ministerof Health finds reports from I 0 or 15 years ago that is why we have brought this motion against this that he wants to deal with, but he cannot deal with his minister. We have said, okay, we have got the ocumd ent, own cabinet document, his own cabinet submission that we see governmentwhat policy is, now tell us where your said they would be privatizing completely home care. studies are, tell us where your rationalization is. That is where theargument breaks down, because theyhave no Now, the member fo r Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), I ratiooalizationand they have no studies and they have no believe, talked about rural Manitoba. What did this expertsand they have no justification whatsoever fo r this document sayabout rural Manitoba? Whenthe minister privatization plan. was out and when the member was touring with the * minister, did the minister say, did he advise the member (1640) - whatin was the cabinet document about rural Manitoba? Let me indicate what it says, andlet me remind you, the So this takes us all back to the beginning. This government document, this is not anNDP document, this document,their plan, nojustification, they have to defend is your government's document, and what does it say? it. Thatwhy is we arefacing a strike; that is why patients Ten regional health associations developed, regional arein the situation they are in. It is not because of some health associations willtake overall service delivery in plot that has been staged by anyone. It is because the the rural areas, including home care by April l997. government decided, for whatever reason, and we are only still trying to find out-the government made a Now, members opposite mightsay, well, perhaps that decision to privatize home care and now they cannot will be government home care. The plan in this justify it. Now they cannot find any rationale for it, so document indicates there will be no government home now what are they doing? Now they are looking for care by that time for those ruralhealth divisions to take straw men; they are looking for people to blame for the over. Who will be left? The private companies, the mess that they fo und themselves in. They fo und private friends of the members opposite. Members themselves in a political mess, Mr. Chairperson, and their opposite suggest that somehow we are attacking private way out isto attack andto attack and to attack. companies. Let me tell you what is in this document dealingwith private companies. This document says that But I only suggest the members opposite, look atyour the city ofWimripegwill be divided up into four quarters owncabinet documentit If issuch a good policy, defend and who will be given contracts: northeast quadrant, it. Ifit is nota good policy, ifyou cannot justifyit, there DrakeMedox; southwest quadrant-oh, there is a familiar is nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake. name-We Care; southeast quadrant and northwest Thereis nothi ng wrong with saying, we made a mistake, quadrant They are going to divide the city of Winnipeg we are going back to the drawing board. I think you up and givea monopoly. would be respected by the public of Manitoba and the 1,500 people that were out there today, ifyou were to Now the minister took exception to the word have thecourage to say, we madea mistake, we are going "monopoly," but once you give a monopoly, one private backto thedrawing board, we and are not going to go on company, one service deliveryone in section, what option this scheme and this plan to privatize. Thank you, Mr. does the clienthave? Canthe client phone up and say, no Chairperson. I do not like it? No, they are stuck with the private deliverer of carein that region. Solet us get a grip on the Mr. Jack Penner (Emenon): I want to look at the issue here in this Chamber. The issue here is resolution and speak to the resolution as moved by the privatization, and it is not privatization as made up by honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) in membersof theunion movement or by the workers or by discussion in this House. However, before I do that, I the public. It is the government's own document. So think it is important to note that home care attendants perhaps we should start from that premise. Perhaps we went on strike on April l6, and not only did home care April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1125 attendants in the city of Winnipeg go on strike, some We have increased our home care budget since 1988 home care workers in rural Manitoba went on strike. from $38 million to $91 million. That is almost a What I find most interesting about the fact that rural tripling of the home care budget. Yet the opposition home care workers went on strikeis simply by the way members at each and every opportunity have voted to the whole issue was communicated to them. deny our senior people that are not able to help themselvesthat increasein budget. Every time theyhave Mr. Chairperson, I want to indicate to you that I voted againstthat budget increase. Inessence, they have received a number of calls from home care workers voted against services to those that require home care. asking whether, in fact, they could be penalized, and They sit there and chuckle andsupport the union bosses whether government would, in fa ct, not pay them, andthe increased salaries thatthese unionbosses are now penalizethem and they would not be paid ifthey did not negotiatingon the ofbacks the most vulnerable people in go out on strike or ifthey could be penalized some other oursociety. way. My response to them was that their superior staff The resolution that the honourable member for should have told them that there were no penalties and Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), in fa ct, moved in thisHouse is that there would be no retribution should they decide to erroneous. I would suggest thatwe might have thrown continue to go to work and serve the most vulnerable out this resolution based on its inaccuracy. It says that sector in society, mainly our senior people that cannot the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) is condemned for help themselves. his :fuilureto provide anyresearch or recommendations to support the contracting out of home care services to Secondly, I received a phone call from aclient. This private, for-profit companies. Mr. Chairperson, there is person is in a wheelchair, cannot dress himself, cannot no mention, andneither has the Minister of Health at any washhimself, andsaid he had beentold that he would not time indicated to this House or anybody else, that it be washed, bathed, clothed or helped in and out of his would be private, fo r-profit companies that would be bed because the home care workers would be out on askedto tender fo r thisservi ce. Anybody cantender for strike; he had been told, and do not call your member of this service. The Victorian Order of Nurses, which is a the Legislature. The home care worker that called me nonprofit group, isnow providingservices andcan tender said the same thing. He had been told that in no to provide the services to the home care clients in this uncertain terms are you to call your member of the province. The union which is opposing this action has Legislature. The home care co-ordinator in my area, every right in the world to tender to provide services to when I calledher and asked her whythese people were on thosemost vulnerable. Anyother group, nonprofit group , strike, said to me this: I have no right to talkto you. has the right totender to provide services of thiskind to the home care clients. Since, whencan members ofmy constituency or should members of my constituency be told, you have no right to The one thing that oppositionthe members are afraid talk to your member who is duly elected to represent of andfear most is thatyou are going to finally bring the them? What kind of a society have we evolved into? amount of money required to provide the services at the What kind of a police state are our opposition members least cost and that the abuses which have been clearly supporting? You are directing and supporting union identified by letter to us by some of the home care bosses who tell their union staff to threaten providerscmrently willbe eliminated. That is what they people-unconscionable; unheard of in this province. are afraid of That is what the unions are afraid of, and the unionbosses are absolutely paranoid about losing its Now, the other thing that I cannot understand, Mr. clientele, its membership. They are afraid that, ifthey do Chairperson, and this is one of the reasons I wanted to not apply the kind of fe armongering and tactics that they stand in this House, is the opposition members not usedto threaten some of our home care workers and our supporting the budget that we have just passed. They clientele, ifthey do not apply those kind of tactics, they voted against an $8-million increase to home care, an will lose their union membership. increase to provide better home care, more equitable home care to vulnerable people, and the opposition Therefore, the opposition members are dependent on members stand and vote against thatinitiative . the unions for funding to raise inoney for their next 1126 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 campaign and are now sitting there across the way ofhealthcare services in Manitoba because, as we heard paranoid that their :funding coffers will be depleted today in Question Period, because home care is not because the unions will no longer be able to support covered under the Canada Health Act, it provides a way them. that this government and othergov ernments like it that wantto seeus move away from medicare can afind way Ladies and gentlemen, most of us that have been of offloading services into the community, privatizing involved in private business know that ifyou keep on them and then ensuring that they are not going to be spendingwithout looking atthe means of where the :funds covered under medicare. are going to come from, you very quickly nm broke. I suggest to youthat previous NDP governments in other This is why this is such an important issue, and I provinces have demonstrated clearly their inability to believe thatthis is why the healthcare workers thatare administer,to budget and maintain government at a level onstrike, thehome care workers arefighting a battle that of affordability. They have simply not been able to is very important to each and every citizenof Manitoba without fee . Every NDP government in this country It is not just on behalfof those home care workers, it is - today applies a fee fo r service. Thisresolution implies on ofbehalf allus, of allthe clients, allof theusers of our that that is not so. So there are implied inaccuracies in health care system, all of us that use it today and will this resolution aswell as real. need services like home carein the future. * (1650) Letthis government not thinkthat they are pulling the wool over the eyes of anyone when they tryand suggest Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable thatthis is notan issue aboutprivatization of health care member's time hasexpired. services. It is. It is also an issue of dignity. I would suggest that the gov ernment, innot ensuring the dignity The honourable member for Thompson. of home care workers, is not ensuring the dignity of the patients that rely on home care services. That is what Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Thankyou. home care is about. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I was going to go. (Mr. Frank Pitura, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Ashton: I yield to my colleague, ifthat is-I wish to speak but- It is about dignity for patients who aremuch better off getting home care and treatment, health care services in Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave fo r the honourable their home. Not only is it better because they get member fo r Thompson to yield to the member fo r individualized care, it is better because they have that Radisson? Is thereleave? dignity as being more independent and staying in their home, and they need the support not only of the caring An Honourable Member: I might object. homecare ,wodrer which theyhad have under the existing system,they need thesupport of thecommun ity. That is Mr.Chairperson: No? Leavewould bedenied. It does why we are going to fight to prevent this government not matter. He does not need leave anyway. He can get from thatseeing people arepenalized by paying user fee s up again after. to pay fo r home care. Ms. Cerilli: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, for your Ifthe andminister the Premier (Mr. Filmon) are correct willingness to ensure that I have leave to speak andjoin that this is going to save money, passing that saving off thedebate on this crucial issue in terms of theprovision on to the backs of elderly, terminallyill, chronically ill of health care fo r Manitobans. andthe disabled is reprehensible and hasno place in any kind of civilized or democratic society. That is why we This is a turning point, this strike and this issue of arefighting this, andthat is why thosehome care workers privatizing home care is a turning point fo r the provision are standing up and saying they are fighting for the Apri1 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1127 dignity of the patients that they treat by ensuring that have handled the questions that have come from Mr. there is going to be no user fe es. Chomiak, theMLA for Kildonan, or Mr. Doer, the MLA for Concordia and the other people that have asked I would suggest that ultimately that is where this questions about getting studies that are going to justify govermnent is going. Thisyear they may be creating this thiskind of an action, it is clear. One day they have said fo ur-sector monopoly in thecity ofWinnip eg where there one thing; one day havethey said another thing. One day is going to be no competition, and each of the private they have got one study apparently that canjustify this; companies that win the contracting out will have the the next day we find out that their own advisory assurance of getting government subsidy. They will connnittees havenot recommendedor supported this kind eventually be able to cut back the funding for those of initiative to introduce, as they say, competition in the companies and theywill eventually be forced to increase provisionof home care services. It is reprehensible, it is user fe es and fees to their clients so that they can keep manipulative, and it is just not true, Mr. Acting their profits up. Chairperson. I just want to talk a little bitabout that, because I am I would also just like to reiterate what I thinkthat this sure that the majority of people in the province of govermnent is goingto do. They boast now of increasing Manitoba, likeus, would rather seesubsidy going to pay by $8 million the funding for home care in the province, for home care going to the pockets ofthose home care and it is the first year that they have increased that line, wotkers thattreat the patients and work with the patients even though we know thathome care is the way to go in on a daily or weekly basis and have developed a any sane health reform, that it is better fo r patients to relationship with thosepatien ts. They would rather see have treatment in their homes as much as possible, that them get, for example, in the case of a registered nurse, a it costs a fraction to treat people in their homes thanin salaiyapproximately of $23 an hour. They would rather personal care homes or in hospitals. I think the seeit go to the nurse than go to the pocket of some boss difference in one year is $18,000, but the real issue here fo r We Care. Theywould rather see that. iseventually the government will reduce that line item in their budget. They will reduce the money allocated for We know that this is what this government is up to; home care, and isthat when we are really going to see the they arereally up tojust tryingto bust the union. Thatis competition and the increase in user fee s and the loss of whatthis is about; that is what it was about in the strike a number ofpeople in our community who cannot afford with the university professors; that is what it was about to pay the fe es that We Care has-in some cases, some with the strike with the emergency wards; that is what $23 perhour for care-when they are going to go without they are trying to do with education, with their that care. reprehensible document about ensuring quality and accountability in education. They are out to union-bust. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) It is a philosophical or ideological debate. That is It is going to cost the government more because they what we are here to do. We have very different beliefs will be at the door at the emergency wards, they willbe thanyou do, and one of the things that we believe in the atthe needof otherhealth care services like personal care depth of our soul is there is no place for profit, no place homes ornur sing homes, and it is completely backwards for profit in health careor in education. That is what this for this government to try and make the argument that debate is about. It is reprehensible to make money off this is going to save money. people who, of no fault oftheir own, are aging, are ill, are chronically or terminally ill. That is what this is about, If, in filet,there areproblems in the existing delivery of and the ideological argument that it is reasonable to services in home care, for example, with the I. V. privatize home care is reprehensible. program, which somenurses suggest thisgov ernment has deliberatelykept fromwotking efficiently so that they can I just want to talk a little bit about the manipulation create the fee ling in thepublic system or withthe public that is going on with this government in terms of trying system that there are problems so that gives them some to sway the public. When I look at the way that they kindof, intheir mind,justification for privatization. That 1128 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 is the waythat governments of this ilk always try and Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to advise privatize services. First, they try and create so much thehonomable minister thatall honourable members are chaos in the public system that people are concerned; honourable and thathe choose his words very carefully. then they will go ahead and try to use that as their justification for privatization. Ifany of that is true, all Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chair, at a timewhen the expectations that it takes is a commitment to public health care and were that there would bethe minister andthe critic and political will to make the public system more efficient perhaps the odd other member about, you bring in a and work better. motion such as this one, fullwell the understanding was that there would be novotes on committee day. This is So anybureaucratic problems in the delivery of home the first timewe have hadthat opportunityto deal with careit as is now do not needprivatization. What it needs thatparticular day. Sothis is the first timethat we have is a commitment to public health and a commitment to hadactually aFriday as a committeeday since the rules thosehealth care patients that rely on home care. have been changed, and I am disappointed I am very disappointed that the member would-the member can - * (1700) bring a motion anytime he wishes, butto do it lateon a In closing, I just want to talk alittle bit about how Friday afternoon, I think, is certainlynot in thespirit of important it is for no user fees for clients who are of low the rules that were negotiated and adopted by all income. I have hadpeople on the phone crying because members of this House. they are concerned about not getting treatment, as I am sure we all have, and I just want to say that it is Mr. Chairperson, the member for Thompson (Mr. reprehensible that this government will totry manipulate Ashton) can rationalize all he wishes. The fact of the and usethis as a political issue fo r their own ideological matter is, to do it in that manner particularly was ends. This is not going to work, they have gone too fa r, extremely disappointing from my point of view, and this is one issue, I think,where people are going to particularly in the spirit of the work that hadbeen done seethem fo r what they really are, where there is no care, by all membersthe of House in terms of trying to change not only for the home care workers, but by extension of the rules. thatfor the home care patients. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson, that aside, I want to speak to the Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and motion. The motion, of course, is to censure and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chairman, ifthere was ever condemnminister the for fiWingdo to a certainnumber of any doubt of the tactics and who the members opposite things. [interjection) It is a very serious matter, to support andwho the members opposite are governed by, condemn the member. The members opposite want to thatwas dispelled totally on Friday afternoon. OnFriday clap and giggle and laugh as they have been doing all afternoon, I cannot say it was the dead of night because afternoonwith respectthis to particular issue. Thefact of it was afternoon, obviously, but the fact of the matter is, thematter is, there is no more dedicated person, no more in a time whenexpectations, at least, particularly under caring person in this House thanthe Minister of Health the new rules of this House that were brought in, there (Mr. McCrae) . I have sat in a caucus with himfo r, I am was ananticipation that for Fridays, particularly Friday reminded now, just over 10 years, and I have seen the afternoons, being a committee day, there would be only kind ofthe interest, kind ortof eff that he has put fo rward, a minimum of people here to carry on the question of when he was critica whenwe were in opposition, when Estimates discussion. he was the Attorney-General and when he is now the Minister of Health. That is not what happened. What happened was, the member from Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) introduced a I sit in Treasury Board, and I have since we have been motion of censure for the Minister of Health (Mr. in government. I see what the minister does when he McCrae), andhe brought in 12 of his caucus members to brings his Health Estimates fo rward to Treasury Board. back himup, 12 bully boys to come in here and tryand He fights toothand nail in supportof his department, in intimidate the Minister of Health. That kind of thing supportof his efforts to try and provide health care to the certainly was uncalled for. citizens ofManitoba, good, solid health care. Letme tell April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1129 you, I and mycolleague theMinis ter of the Environment Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am having great (Mr. Cummings) are the only two members of Treasury difficulty hearing the honourable minister's comments. Board who have been there since Day One, since 1988, If there are some members who want to carry on a when we came into office. We both can bearwitne ss to conversation, I would appreciate they do so in the hall. the fa ct of the interest, the concern and the efforts The honourable minister to continue. perfo rmed by the Minister of Health. He has done more in terms of health care on behalfof his government here Mr. Ernst: Iffo r some reason the members opposite than any other province in the country. We spend more think that simply because something is motivated by a money on health care than any other province in the profit is wrong-1 mean, the entire North American country. [interjection] economy, by and large, runs on that basis-and that the entireworld would collapse, the entire economic system Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I have said at the would collapse,the entire North American-as a matter of beginningof thismeeting that I would maintain decorum, fact, theentire :free world would collapse iftheir pre mise and I will maintain decorum. Allhonourable members was the rightpr emise. will have an opportunity to put their remarks on the record. At this time, the honourable Minister of Their premise is not theright premi se. Theirpremise Consumer and Corporate Affairs has the floor. The is the wrong premise. They are stuck in the past. They honourable minister, to continue. are stuck withtheir union buddies who are yanking their chains, and you can see that every time you say that, up Mr. Ernst: Thankyou, Mr.Chairman. It is amazing. they pop. You touch the hot button and up they pop, I find the members opposite come in here and, all of a with theirhidebound ideology dealing with their union sudden, anything that has anything to do with aprivate, buddies and their union bosses who are telling them how fo r-profit operation somehow is going to absolutely and what to do. destroy the health care system. I have heard that come :from themouths of many members opposite. Anything to They thinkonly the person in the world, and I findthat do with private, for-profit is the deathknell of medicare. incongruous, who can provide an effective service is a government employee, yet it was not very long ago when AnHonourable Member: Thatis whatthe public fe els. I heard members opposite popping up and condemning the existing system, condemning the existing system Mr. Ernst: Let me askthe question, Mr. Chairman, if because it did not work, it was not providing service, it that is the case, then how come every fee -for-service wasnot doing thethings that they thought should happen. doctor is in this business to make a profit and it has not That is coming from members opposite again, but as fa llen apart? Every lab that does the tests that are soon as their union buddies yanked on the chain, bingo, required bythe doctors to make diagnoses are all private. they are rightback on-stream, right back onside. Theymake profit, a or theyare suppo sed to make a profit, at least. They may not all make a profit, but they are a * (1710) profit-making corporation. How come, for theyears and years that those private labs have operated, the health So we heard earlier the Minister of Labour (Mr. care system has not fa llen apart? Toews) talk about the kind of threats and intimidation thatof members that union are putting against vulnerable Evenunder theNDP, there wereprivate labs operating. womenin themiddle of a remote location in the province Every radiologistoutside of a hospital is in a private, for of Manitoba. That is unacceptable. That should never profit business. Now, Mr. Chairman, the health care occur, and the members opposite ought to think alittle system has not fa llen apart, because they are in there bit about the kind of support they are providing when providing radiology. Itis amazingthat all of a sudden a situations like that occur, because their member for private supplier of home care services, some home care Osborne (Ms. McGifford) stands up to defend women on services-the VON have been providing home care a dailybasis. Wherewas she defending thiswoman who services fo r a considerable length of time, but private. So was being threatened by two members of that union for the members opposite, somehow find that- attempting to provide serviceto somebody who was in 1130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA April 22, 1996 need of that service, somebody who was vulnerable, to get into that. Yes, we always have had support. The somebodywho neededto have-thank you verymuch, Mr New Democratic Party has always hadsupport from the Chairperson. I will continue at mynext opportunity. labour movement, surprise, surprise. You know how muchget, we Mr. Chairperson? We have funds from the labour movement-9 percent, 9 percent. The remaining Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honomable 91 percent is from individuals. [interjection] minister's time has expired. Mr. Ashton: First of all, I want to ensure the Well, theMinister of Labour (Mr. Toews) says we will government House leader, as I did in our private see what happens when the legislation comes out. The discussions, that our intent on Friday in moving this so-called Minister of Labour, Mr. Chairperson, who has motion wasno differentthe than intent on Mondays under goneout of his way-he would go andvisit union offices the old rules. We knew it would not come to a recorded when he startedoff his ministry. He said, donot worry, vote. In filet,we did not evenexpect it to come to a voice we are going to bring in a few minor changes to labour vote, but I dobelieve, too, that ifthere is a concern about relations. Well, I wonderwhat hashappened since then? - the requirement that there be two people present fo r a Maybe some other members of his caucus are now recorded vote on a Friday, that can, with the co running the show because this so-called Minister of operation of the House, be waived, as well. Labour now has given up any pretense of objectivity. This is the Ministerof Labour- Thatnot was ourintent Our intent wasto get a debate on this issue, and, quite frankly, Mr. Chairperson, I am Mr.Chairperson: Order, please. I have been giving a glad we are finally getting a chance to debate thisissue. fa ir bit of leniency in accordance with this resolution We have tried to have emergency debates; both becauseit doeshave quite a wide varying role to it, but I opposition parties have. We have tried to have the matter do believe the honomable member fo r Thompson (Mr. dealt with in this House in other ways. We have tried to Ashton) has gone a little further awayfrom it thanI can get this government to put this to a vote. Start with the understand within the motion. So I would ask the clients, the people who are served by home care. honourable member to be a little bit more relevant towards the motion. The honomable member, to But you knowwhat is interesting, Mr. Chairperson, is continue. thatthroughout the debate, ifyou cancall it that, on this issue, andthis is really the first real debate we have had, Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I must the thing that has characterized the government's apologize. I was distracted from the so-called Minister responseany to of the con cerns that have beenexpressed ofLabour (Mr. Toews) who, in concert withthe Minister has been a very predictable script. ofHealth (Mr. McCrae), is on some sortof a -especially the Minister of Health, becausehave I seenthe Minister Mr. Chairperson,if you get up in the House, ifyou ask ofHealth. I had some respectfo r the Minister of Health a question on home care, I cantell you it is going to be a in Justice. I had some respect for him as government rareanswer that not does include some reference to union House leader. I dealt with him as government House bosses. In fact, the government House leader got off the leader. I say to the of Minister Health he has had a 10 script. He said union buddies. You know, the script is year decade long vendetta against anything connected union bosses. We have heard it time and time again. with labour, organized wrorers. I remember the speeches Theymu st handout this atthe beginning of everyday and he used to give as the Labour critic when he was in remind them, you have got to go in thereand talkabout opposition, and I do not know why every time the issue union bosses. I found it amazing when the member fo r comes up, this is allthe government members cando. Emerson (Mr. Penner) got up and said, the NDP gets supportfrom unions. He was going on. This may come Mr. Chairperson, you know what is interesting is if as news to members opposite. government memberstake will the time to talkto people, the public of Manitoba, they will find one thing here. By the way, I hadgone through the contribution lists The issuekey fo r mostpeople is notthe-they cansay, oh, from all three parties. We canget into that ifthey want the NDP is supportfum uniom. I canget up andI could April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1131 say to the Minister of Labour that his current employer through all sorts of other issues, but they did not gave $25,000, Great-West Life, to the Conservative campaign on it. They must, therefore, support anopen Party. Whatdoes that make him? Does that make him a public debate on this issue. corporate boss? Am I going to get up every day and say the Minister of Labour is a corporate boss? Why have we brought in this particular motion censuring the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae)? Mr. Chairperson, let us get the debate back on the Because throughout this entire discussion on this issue issues. I look forward tothe comments from the Minister there has beenno real public input and no public debate. of Labour. I look fo rward to the comments from him. I Atthe veryleast this government should have listened to could get up and point out that the Conservatives got the people ofManitoba onthis issue. Ifthey did not have $2,000 lastelection from guess what, from We Care. We the courage to raise this as an election issue, we are now could get into the connections between We Care and the in a situation where they could raise this, they could go to Conservatives. Surprise, surprise. public hearings, they could ask the clients, they could set up an independent committee. 1 thinkmost peoplerealize that this government gets a significant amount of support from corporations like It is amazing, weset MLAs' salaries to an independent Great-West Life, from We Care, many of whom have a commission. Could they not develop some sort of direct interest in this issue. But you know what, Mr. independent way of looking at this? Mr. Chairperson, Chairperson? I know one thing. I know one thing-that that is the sad part of what is happening here. The the people of Manitoba judge issues like this based on government is desperately trying to find any way possible the merits of the issue. We can get into union bosses. I to get this issue back on their terms, and they are fa lling can callthe Minister of Labour a corporate whatever. I back down-I mean the only thing they have not done in can call the Minister of Health-we have got to net that thiscase is pull out the old red scare, and I guess maybe out of this, because what is happening now-and fo r all thathas got something to do with the new world we live thishere talk , people getup and most of the afternoon we in when the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) is offin have heard talk about this or that or the other related to mainland China currently. It is a little bit difficult to get the current labour dispute. The key issue here is what is into that. He has raised that many a time. best fo r clients, what is best for the health care system. That is the key issue. So they are getting into the classic old, sort of, the union bosses, butI have got news fo r members opposite. To the members opposite, you know they did not The public of Manitoba is very concerned about what campaign on privatizing the home care system. That theyare doing. They want this government to listen, and brings about a certain obligation, I believe, if you I made the suggestion earlier. I would say the two most campaign on something. I willtell you, Mr. Chairperson, difficult things you could say on a personal basis, and it the government campaigned on some things, and they is doubly more difficult as government, and No. 1 is, I won the election onthose things. Ifyou want to get into am sorry; No. 2 is, I made a mistake. some of that,I would sayin the last election the balanced budget legislation, fo r example, there were disagreements * (1720) in the House over that, but they campaigned on it very An Honourable Member: You sure did. You have openly and people obviously supported them. I think made a lot of them. they supported them on some other reasons because of what I call a fraudulent election campaign. Mr. Ashton: When I make mistakes, I admit it. Yes, to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), I have made mistakes What do you say to a government, Mr. Chairperson, and it is tough toadmit it, but sometimes you have got to thatcampaigns on no cuts to health care? Pharmacare, a do it. 33 percent cut, that was not in the election. Home care privatization, that was not in the election. Eye care, that In this case, this government has made a mistake. was not in the election, but I believe there is an Even its own friends are saying it; people like Fred obligation-other issues-privatization ofMTS. I can run Cleverley, who is very known fo r his sympathies. 1132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1996 An Honourable Member: Let us let it run. Let it run. come from the members of the opposition, certainly supported by them, when they startedtalking about the Mr. Ashton: Well, the Deputy Premier says let it run. need to have services withdrawn, when they talk about I do not want to see the damage that is going to take the fact that there is absolutely no way to deal with this place to a system of more than two decades of public service other than through a publicly funded, publicly home care just because the Deputy Premier wants to let operated system. it run. This is not something we canexperiment with. This government does not have public support for what What the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has put it is doing. fo rward is a practical approach to providing some additional choice of services within the system and that An Honourable Member: Yes, we do. statement, unfortunately, when it gets out in the public andwben it is being cmveyed tothe clients by those who Mr. Ashton: Well, the Deputy Premier says it does. areopposed to any change or by those who in some way Why willthey not put itto a vote then of the clients? Let areoffended by theidea ofchange, they immediately start - us start with the clients. They say they are concerned to talk about user fee s. I have two offices in my about the clients. What are they afraid of? I have a constituency, plus my office number here which is suggestion. Ifthey otcann say they made a mistake, at advertisedregularly in thepaper , and theonly calls Ihave least they can come up with some mechanism to get us had are, why are you going to start charging me fees ? out of this bind. That is the rumour thatpeople arebeing fed . We can get here, we cantrade back and fo rth for the rest of the day and the next several weeks with the same Thatis whatpeople are being fe d by those who sitover sort of rhetoric, butthere is a veryserious situation in this there and chuckle about what they think might be an province currently, and something has got tobe done to opportunityto scae a fe w political points. The very fact resolve it I alreadybelieve that the only fairway to do it that theyare talking through some of those in theunion is to try and get an obj ective situation, and I believe the who arevery cmcemedabout the issue, and I understand only way to start that is to at least put the changes to their concern, but ifthey want tocontinue to put fo rward home care on hold. Thankyou, Mr. Chairperson. falseboodsabout whether or not there is any issue at any timeabout a user fee , then they should be, I think, called Bon. Glen Cummings (Ministerof Env ironment): Let to task. mebegin where the member for Thompson left offwhen he said we should betalking aboutthe merits of the issue, Unfortunately, at twenty-five afterfive on a Monday weshould betalking about whether or not there is public afternoon, I amnot toosure thereis going to be awhole support, weshou ld be talking about whether or not there lot of publicity in the public, but I certainly intend to is a practical aspectto this. I have only heard some ofthe circulatewhat is being said in this House. The concerns morerecent from remarks the opposition, but I have been of the clients out there who have called me is thatthey listening through Question Period and through their wantbe to assuredthat the servicewill continue tobe of public pronouncements in front of the media, and it a high standard-that canbe guaranteed ;thatthe service seems to me the furthest thing from their minds is the will tocontinue be freeand that is without question; that merits of the issue. the service will continue tobe consistent so that ifthey become comfortable with a worker that they can rest So, when he starts to raise the question of whether or assured that that will continue as long as is reasonable. not weare throwing out red herrings, then, for goodness' That is just as easyto control in another process as it is sake, look atwhat the opposition, led by their position, is undertoda y's system. saying. Because it is not a matter of looking at whether or not there is another way of providing services, it is a Snangely enough, my riding is a ruralriding where no matter of saying, nab, nyet, no-no, no change. changes were contemplated. We are talking about changes in anopportunity in Winnipeg. In ruralridi ngs, Thatposition, frankly, is even more reprehensible than in rural parts of the province, it has nothing to do with someof the comments that have been made, purportedto ridings, the changes are not even contemplated. The April 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1133 minister has said he intends to look at the process after At the same time, youcan provide a mixof that with having 25 percent of the city service contracted. publicly funded and publicly supported housing fo r those same seniors. It works very, very well. It is only as Now the member from Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) wants recently as about a halfdozen years ago the members to sit over there and shake his head and wave papers across the way were flailing away at our Housing around which I cannot read from here, even with my department for not having provided additional funds for bifocals on,but the bottom line is that he knows fullwell that service. So I say to the members opposite, let us thatthey areusing theopportunity to provide scare tactics start talking about the fa cts of the issue and let us stop across the province, across the province to imply to the playing games with the lives, and frankly abusing the clients that they are somehow going to be at risk. The sensibilities of the seniors, these nsibilities of many of the only risk that is out there today is fo r those who are personal caregivers who are out there-some of them on having their services withdrawn and life made to be as the picket line, some of them not-but not necessarily awkward fo r them as possible. Again, the Minister of being given all of the facts. Health (Mr. McCrae) hasmoved diligently, aggressively, todo evetythingpossible to make sure we protect the best I suggest that a rational review by them and bythe interests of those clients. clients willvery quickly come to the realization that this is, in fact, a realistic option and one where we can The members opposite do not necessarily want to listen provide a high level of care andprovide some options to to those types of fa cts because they believe this is an the people inthe public, who are demanding, particularly opportunity, andI would give the member fo r Thompson those who are the most vulnerable, not demanding but (Mr. Ashton) some credit. He said this is not a labour needing these very, very personalized services that they issue. He made that comment. He made it, however, in must receive. a context that I disagree with because the fa ct is that this is a reasoned opportunity to look at a different delivery I thinkthe problemother wehave is that, frankly,when system, and governments of all stripes and all provinces weget into a strike andwalk-out situation, tempers begin are looking at a better and improved way of delivering to rise, and, frankly, we have comments that are being services. made to some of the clients out there by their previous servers that do not serve in the best interests of their When seven of the provinces of this country have peace of mind, nor do they serve in the best interests of already taken the opportunity to provide some choice in arriving at a reasonable conclusion to how this sort of the way services are being delivered, then you can be service canbe phased in. guaranteed that there are lots of models out there that show that this method of delivery can provide some As I look, Mr. Chairman,the at level of- options fo r the public which, in fa ct, the public appreciates. I would challenge the members across the Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being5: 30 way. When they were continually talking about public p.m., committee rise. Call in theSpeaker. housing a few years ago, one thing that they never contemplated, I will bet, was the fact that we now have IN SESSION private citizens, senior citizens, being prepared to invest in their own life-leases in order to take over the Mr.Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laur endeau): The hour responsibility and provide decent accommodations for being 5:30 p.m., this House is now adjourned until 1 :30 themselves and for future generations. p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday) . LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday , April 22, 1996 CONTENTS MATTEROF PRIVILEGE 1995 Annual Report ofWorkers Compensation Board of Manitoba Home Care Services and Appeal Commission; 1996-97 Chomiak 1071 Manitoba Labour Estimates Lamoureux 1072 Toews 1079 McCrae 1073 Ashton 1074 Introduction of Bills Ernst 1075 Bill 3, Surface Rights Amendment Act ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Derkach 1079 Presenting Petitions Bill 5, Horticultural Society Repeal Act Home Care Services Findlay 1080 Martindale 1076 Mihychuk 1076 Bill 6, VeterinaryScience Scholarship Lamoureux 1076 Fund Amendment Act Friesen 1076 Findlay 1080 Seasonal Camping Fees Bill 7, Medical Amendment Act Ashton 1076 McCrae 1080 Reading and Receiving Petitions Bill 8, Chiropodists Amendment Act McCrae 1080 Home Care Services Martindale 1076 Bill 4, Manitoba Public Insurance Lamoureux 1077 Corporation Amendment Act McGifford 1077 Cummings 1080 Barrett 1077 Presenting Reports by Standing Oral Questions And Special Committees Home Care Program Committee of Supply Doer; Filmon 1080 Laurendeau 1078 Chomiak; McCrae 1082 Sale; McCrae 1083 Standing Committee on Public Ashton; Filmon; McCrae 1084 Accounts,First Report Lamoureux; McCrae 1084 Santos 1078 Ministerial Statements and Tabling Business Advisory Board of Reports Friesen; Mcintosh 1085 Flooding and Disaster Assistance Pallister 1078 LotteryRevenues Dewar 1079 Mihychuk; Stefanson 1086 Gambling Facilities Flooding�onstituency of St. Jobns McGifford; Stefanson; Gilleshammer 1087 Mackintosh 1090 Domtar Site St. James Canadians Cerilli; Cummings 1087 McAlpine 1090 Mihychuk 1091 Manitoba Junior Hockey League McAlpine; Cummings 1088 Rural Forum Penner 1091 BFI Landfill Site Barrett; Cummings 1089 ORDERS OF THE DAY Committee of Supply Members' Statements Education and Training 1091 Home Care Services Sveinson 1089 Health 1112 -