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Home , Hero of the Soviet Union

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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ENGLISH TRANSLATION 2 CITATION & RIGHTS 17

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

ID IS012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m54t

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TRANSCRIPT ENGLISH TRANSLATION —Today is March 14, 2008. We are in Tel-Aviv’s Givatayim district, visiting a veteran of the Great Patriotic War. Please introduce yourself and tell us about your life before the war, about your family, how you came to serve in the army, and how you spent the war. Please, go ahead.

I will do my best. I was born on . . .

—Please introduce yourself.

My name is Ion Degen. I was born on July 4, 1925 in the city of Mogilev-Podolsky [Mohyliv-Podilskyi] on the Dniester River in the Vinnytsia Region of Ukraine, formerly on the border with Romania. I lived in that city for sixteen years. My father was a well-known paramedic, but he passed away when I was three years old, leaving me and my mother to fend for ourselves. Life was . . . well, you know what life was like before the war. My mother worked as a nurse at the hospital and earned a measly wage. We survived the famous famine of 1932-33, in which we nearly perished. When I was twelve, I began working as a blacksmith’s apprentice. I had an excellent teacher named Feder, who taught me many things for which I am thankful to this day. I was a physically fit lad, very sturdy. We were well-schooledin the arts of war because we lived right on the border. I was good at firing from different types of firearms and could throw a grenade pretty well.

When the war began I had just completed nine grades of school and began working as a counselor at a Young Pioneers camp. When war broke out on Sunday, June 22, I went to the city Komsomol organization in order to volunteer for the front, but nobody was there so I went to the military enlistment office. However, nobody wanted to talk to me and I was told to wait for a draft summons.

I was told I still need to wait another two years. I decided to evacuate my mother and purposely fell behind the train because when I suggested volunteering for the army she became hysterical. This is understandable, of course. My mother did not throw herself on machine-gun nests. I contacted the headquarters of the 130th Rifle Division in Mogilev-Podolsky and was made a soldier in a destruction battalion within that division. After a few days . . . I was given supplies: a carbine, 120 rounds, and four RGD grenades. My platoon was made up of Red Army regulars. Fighting started in early July, but I cannot remember the exact date. In addition to battlefield casualties we also had some absolutely inexplicable losses. Our platoon members disappeared one after another, probably deserted, and after some time I became the commander of the platoon.

I was wounded while fighting between Uman and Khrystynivka, and even have a medal for the defense of

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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Kiev [Kyiv], despite having not even seen Kiev at that time. It was a light wound, the bullet went straight through my right hip. My friend and I took nineteen days to escape from encirclement. When we swam across the Dnieper I thought that we had finally escaped after not eating for nineteen days. I had only one bandage that I kept reusing, so my leg was in a bad shape. However, it turned out that the Germans were on the eastern bank of the Dnieper as well. I was saved by the Ukrainian Hryhoriuk family. After spending several days with them, I was secretly transported on a series of horse drawn carts. I don’t know where we crossed the front line, but I wound up in a hospital in Poltava.

They wanted to amputate my leg there, but I did not give them permission to do so, after which they sent me to a hospital in the southern Urals. After receiving a light wound I spent five months in hospital until being discharged on January 21, 1942. Even after I was seriously wounded in 1942, I only spent two months in the hospital, not five and a half like after the light injury. This goes to show what the categories "light" and "serious" mean.

I was released from hospital in January of 1942. I was only sixteen and a half years old, so the army did not want to take me back. I decided to go south because the day I was released from hospital the temperature outside was -52°C, and I only had a light trench coat that the hospital issued me. I froze to the bone before I got to the freight train car which was taking families to the south.

I came to Aktubinsk [Aktobe] and met an acquaintance of mine, Aleksandr Gabu, a captain in the border guards, who sent me to the village of Shromovo in Kharazmovskiy district of Georgia. It is difficult to convey Georgian hospitality. I lived in that village until June 15, 1942 when I found out that an armored train had arrived at the station of Natanebi, only 13 km away. My leg was almost fully healed and my limp was almost gone, so I went to the commander of the train, Major Garkusha and said that I wanted to fight. I showed him my documents, and he deemed me well educated having completed nine grades of school. He asked me if I could put the coordinates of military units on a map. I said I could and he dictated the coordinates to me. It took me only a minute to draw everything on the map, and he told me that I would be his adjutant. I said to him, "If I had wanted to be an orderly, I would have waited for the draft. I want to fight." "Am I not fighting?" he asked me. "I’m sorry comrade major, but I have not seen any majors on the front lines," I replied. He laughed and told me that I will be assigned to a reconnaissance unit. This was a special unit of armored trains, comprised of volunteers, former tank crews, and railroad personnel. The railroad workers were not drafted, they volunteered. The tank crews had served at Khalkhin Gol and Khasan. The recon unit was astounding and when I was eventually appointed its commander, it was a greater honor than all of my medals put together. The people under my command were amazing, just amazing. Every person was a hero.

On October 15, I was wounded and was in hospital until December 31 when I was released on New Year’s Eve and sent to the 21st Armored Unit Training Regiment. When I arrived at the regiment’s base in

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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Shulaveri, Georgia they no longer asked me if I was 18 or not or what I wanted to do. I was sent to train at the 1st Kharkiv Tank Academy, I have a document about completing my training right here.

I graduated from the academy in January of 1944 and was sent to the 183rd Tank Factory and received my tank, a crew, and was sent to the 2nd Independent Guards Armored Brigade. I miraculously held on in that brigade until January 21, 1945 through five offensives. This was almost impossible because a guards detached tank brigade is a spearhead unit. There were eleven such units in the Red Army, one on every front. Our mission was to make a gap in the enemy lines through which other armored units could enter. It was unusual to survive one offensive, but after surviving my second one people began calling me lucky.

I was the commander of a tank, then an armored platoon, and finally an armored company. On January 21, 1945 I was very seriously wounded by a shell fragment that pierced my skull. The shell fragment is still in my brain. My jaws had been disconnected, I had seven bullet wounds in my arms, and four shrapnel wounds in my legs. You see, I am quite disabled. The next part was very difficult . . . [Sound cuts out for a minute.]

—You finished telling your story, but I still have questions.

What do you want to ask?

—How and when did your mother find out that you were alive?

Ah yes, she found out about that accidentally in so far as things happen accidentally, now I understand that there is a certain order of things. In the fall of 1942 at the station of Murtazovo, or maybe Dokshukino [Nartkala], I cannot remember for certain, I saw the mother of my acquaintance from Mohyliv-Podilskyi. She was sitting at the train station, wearing only a nightgown and freezing. She recognized me immediately, but I did not recognize here right away. She called out to me, and I asked her what she was doing there. She said that she was waiting for a train, and I asked her, "A German train? The Germans will be here in a few minutes." I asked my subordinate Gosha Kulikov to dress her, give her some supplies, and evacuate her. He found some clothes for her and a fur coat. I asked him where he got it, and he said, "Stop trying to enlighten me. If there is a fur coat like that here, it did not belong to the Ossetians, the Balkars, or the Terek Cossacks." This meant that they had confiscated it from some unlucky woman. I asked him if he did not kill her. He said, "I have not sinned." He took that woman to Beslan, but laughed at me when I asked him to give her some money. He said to me, "What good is money? You can buy more for tea and salt these days." It turns out that in Beslan he gave her many more things.

My mother ran into her on the street in March 1945, and the woman told her that her son was a big shot

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN tank commander. I was only a unit commander, but still. The thing is that I was wearing a tank crew uniform, a helmet, and leather jacket, and leather pants, so she decided that I was a commander. My mother wrote a letter to Stalin saying that I was a tank commander, and she got a letter in response from his staff which thanked her for raising such a son, and said that a copy would be forwarded to my unit. My unit wrote to her thanking her and then continued by saying that on January 21, 1945 while fighting for the Motherland . . . My mother heard " while fighting for the Motherland" and fainted. After she came to her senses they explained that I was wounded, not killed. The city council sent an urgent telegram to the hospital where I was undergoing treatment and on June 6, 1945, a month after the end of the war, I found out that my mother survived. She also found out that . . . I went to live with her. That is how we were reunited.

—Did you have any brothers or sisters?

I had a significantly older step-brother and a step-sister who was also much older. She met us at the airport when we arrived in Israel, so I got to meet her. I was told that she was very beautiful and, although by the time we met she was already a seventy-eight-year-old woman, she was still quite beautiful. I was fifty-two and she was seventy-eight. She was a wonderful woman who knew many languages and had a fantastic sense of humor.

—You had such a big age difference?

Yes, my father was thirty-six years older than my mother and my mother was always jealous of him, and supposedly not without reason.

—Did she remarry later?

No, she said that there could be no other man like my father. I heard many stories about him, he was truly a legendary individual.

—You were eager to join the army, but you were just sixteen. Was this a teenage ambition, patriotism, or a bit of both?

There was a combination of factors. First of all, from preschool I was brought up as a staunch communist patriot. Even after I read the Bible for the first time in 1956 and became a practicing Jew, I remained a Communist 100%. Can you imagine such a combination? It is like hot ice, a practicing Jew and a Communist. Only when my fifteen-year-old son shoved an article by Lenin, called "Party Organization and Literature," into my face did I realize that fascism did not start with Mussolini, but with Lenin in 1916. Then I ceased to be a Communist. Second of all, I was very well prepared for war as a boy. How could I not fight?

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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It would have been nonsense for me not to. Third of all, I was afraid that I would be accused of cowardice because I was Jewish. Jews have to be number one in everything. So there was a combination of these three factors . . .

—How did it happen that you so quickly became a recon unit commander despite still being a boy? After all, recon is a special kind of job.

I cannot tell you because I was elected to that position by my recon soldiers. This is why I value that election more than all of my medals. However, I cannot tell you why they chose me.

—Did you ever go on recon missions behind enemy lines?

Yes, our main objective was to guide our armored trains' fire, but sometimes we were sent behind enemy lines. It was on a return from such a mission that I was wounded on October 15. We were sent to make contact with a partisan group, which was actually not a true partisan group, but an NKVD unit. We had come there during the night, spent a day with them, and headed back the next night. Getting out was not as easy as coming in, for on our way back a radio operator was killed because of my actions. You see, we had killed two sentries, Stepan simply chocked his, while I stabbed mine with a dagger. His blood splattered on me, and I began vomiting. The Germans heard that sound despite Stepan quickly covering my mouth with his huge hand, and opened fire on us. We dove into the Terek and walked along it. During the journey I was wounded several times before Stepan carried me out.

—In 1944 you joined an armored unit . . .

Yes.

—In a special detached brigade. Were you an officer by that point?

Yes, I was made an officer after graduating from the academy in January 1944. I was promoted to junior lieutenant on March 8, 1944 and then I was sent to the 2nd Guards Armored Independent Brigade. It was a spearhead assault brigade, of which there were 11 in the Red Army. The brigade’s objective was to create an opening in the enemy front lines so that other armored and mechanized units could enter. This was basically a suicide unit, but I miraculously managed to survive five offensives with that brigade. This was almost unbelievable, and after the 2nd assault I was called lucky. We had a dark joke that two People's Commissariats were taking care of us, the one for land and agriculture and the one for healthcare. In the best case scenario, it would be the healthcare one.

—Was your tank hit by direct fire? How did you climb out? What do you remember?

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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It depends which time. The first tank was hit in the right track in Vilnius, but thankfully after putting the tank in reverse we were able to take cover in an alleyway with only our left track working. I calmly climbed out of that tank and walked up to another one. I told the commander of that tank to move to my tank and set up a defensive perimeter while I took his position in the second tank. If a shell got inside a tank, the surviving crew members had six seconds to climb out. We trained for this scenario and knew how to escape. By the way, if I had not jumped out of the last tank, I would have only received the head and face wound, but I let fear get the best of me and jumped out.

—What happened?

Huh?

—What happened when you jumped out?

When I jumped out? Firstly, I got seven bullet wounds in my arms, then as I was lying near the tank, they began bombarding me with mortar rounds and I received four serious shrapnel wounds to my legs, resulting in severe disability.

—How did you survive?

I did not survive, I was saved. Senior Lieutenant Fyodorov’s tank drove up, and I was dragged in by the crew.

—You mentioned a time when you had to hide for four days.

Ah yes, this was after the fall offensive. The mechanic and I evacuated from a damaged tank, but the other three crew members did not make it. My shoulder straps were left inside the tank on top of the munitions crates because I always had them with me in order to look good. They found the burned remains of the shoulder straps inside the tank and thought that I had perished there. The wreckage and the bodies were so badly mangled that it was difficult to tell how many bodies were there. One time before we left the USSR my wife, my son, and I even went to East Prussia to visit my ‘grave.’

My mechanic and I hid out, crouching in a mausoleum while a German Tiger tank, probably the one that hit us, stood outside. After the tank left we could not even walk straight because our legs fell asleep. On top of that a recon group from the 184th Rifle Division opened fire at us. It is a good thing that managed to hid behind the tombstones. From there I gave such a salvo of profanity that the soldiers immediately understood that they were dealing with one of their own.

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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—You have many awards. I know that you also have Polish ones, but could you tell us about the Soviet ones?

Yes.

—Three Orders of the Patriotic War are a rare find.

Well, this is . . .

—And the Order of the Red Banner.

Yes.

—What were you awarded for?

This is my most prized award “For Courage.”

—How did you earn it?

I earned it during a battle in which I destroyed eight Panther tanks. I will not talk about the rest. Two of the Panthers were destroyed during the night and then during the day three of our tanks destroyed eighteen more. This was a pretty rare case when three tanks had to stop thirty German ones. A commander of an infantry division called us crying and asked us to stop the German tanks because his artillery support had fled, since their 76 mm regiment cannons were useless against the heavily armored Panthers. He came to us, not on a Willys, but on a horse drawn cart. He was a Kalmyk, named Gorodovikov. He was the brother of Oka Gorodovikov. He said to us, "Guys, please stop the tanks, I will recommend all of you for ‘Hero of the Soviet Union'." We had already been withdrawn from battle after that frightful night when I destroyed two Panthers, so we did not have to keep fighting, but how could we refuse? We stopped the tanks, and for that battle I got the ‘For Courage’ medal. My battalion commander later explained that if not for the efforts of his deputy political commander I would be up for a major award. I did not know which one, but I was awarded a "For Courage" medal. This is why it is so important to me.

—Were you in a T-34 tank?

Yes, a T-34 with a 85 mm enabled gun.

—What about the Order of the Red Banner?

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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This was for my last battle from January 13 to 21, 1945. By that time I was a company commander, so I was awarded for both my company’s actions and my own. In that battle I destroyed a Tiger with my T-34, but that was all thanks to my gunner Zagidulin, a Tatar. He hit the Tiger’s gun and if he had not, the Tiger would have killed us all. In that same battle I also destroyed a German 55 mm self-propelled gun. It so happened that we fired at one another simultaneously. It was so loud that I thought my shell had exploded in the barrel, but it turns out that it was the sound of two tanks firing at one another simultaneously. There was a lot more done during that battle including two pillboxes. In the list of targets hit by Soviet tank aces during that battle there is a line that reads "many artillery pieces." I’m not sure how many it was, I have no way of knowing, I did not count them after all.

—You also have Polish awards?

Yes.

—Could you say a few words about those?

Yes, the Poles awarded me more generously than the Soviets and practically for nothing. On July 8, 1944 we were ordered to urgently report to Vilnius under the command of a rifle corps. I arrived and reported to him that a platoon from the 2nd Independent Guards Armored Brigade was ready to receive orders. He said, "Well, so this is the famous tank brigade? Well, guys, get some rest, watch a film." In the meantime a fierce battle was raging in Vilnius. Only later did we discover that the battle was between the Polish Armia Krajowa and the Germans. The next day we went into battle, and after my tank was hit and I got onto another one, I ran into a group of Polish officers and I felt ashamed for the previous day. I did not know their rank, so I walked up to one of them to introduce myself, he was a tall aristocratic looking colonel. I asked him if I could be of any help and he started tearing up. He asked me whether I could clear the street of machine-gun nests and I told him I would try. He asked me for my last name and he told me to write it down. For that battle I received an award, but the Poles then decided that it was not enough, so they also awarded me The Order of the Cross of Grunwald. Then they again decided that this was not enough and gave me the highest Polish honor, the Virtuti Militari.

—But did you eliminate the machine guns?

Come again?

—Did you clear the street?

Yes, but it was nothing compared to what had to be done in Vilnius later.

—But for him it was . . .

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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That is what I got those awards for. Then for the battle against 30 Panther tanks I got the "For Courage" medal. This just shows how tank crews were valued in the Soviet Army compared to the Polish Army.

—You were in a recon unit and then you were the commander of an armored company . . .

If you want to be precise, I was also in a tank unit when I was in the recon unit because it was an armored unit.

—Yes, but you were not in a tank during your recon missions.

That's right.

—Were there any other Jews serving with you in your unit?

In the recon unit of the 42nd Armored Train Battalion there were only Siberians, I was the only Jew. In my tank, my gunner was a Tatar and my radio operator was a Ukrainian Kuban Cossack. My first gunner was a Bashkir from the Urals, I had Russias. However, there were many Jews in our brigade.

—Did you experience any anti-Semitism during the war? Not after, but during.

In the 42nd Armored Train Battalion I did not even feel a hint of anti-Semitism. However, one time when I was in the 2nd Guards Armored Brigade I was drinking with the Battalion Commander, Guards Major Dorosh, a very good man. He said to me, "You know, you are such a good guy, you are not at all like a Jew." I stopped socializing with him completely. Of course, I still followed his orders because he was my battalion commander. He was an intelligent man and sensed that something was wrong. One time he said to me, "You know, all of my university friends were Jews." His statement still left a mark on our relationship. By the way, the same battle that I received that medal "For Courage", he also received the same award. However, he did attend the award ceremony and I did not understand why. Later he asked me to show him the medal and said that it was a tankist's medal, because it had a T-35 on it.

—Did you meet up with any of your comrades in arms after the war? I don’t mean the whole division, or on May 9, but did you have personal contact with the people that fought together with you?

Yes, there were a few curious meetings. On the 30th anniversary of the victory over Germany I met with one of my friends from the academy. He was also a Jewish tank man. It was a great meeting in Kiev [Kyiv]. I also met another one of my academy friends, Vasya Yubkin, a Hero of the Soviet Union who had lost both of his legs and now taught at the Kyiv University. However, we did not maintain ties. It seems that as an instructor at the political department he did not want to be friends with a Jew. So we never had . . .

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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There was a very interesting meeting here in Israel on the Dead Sea. They asked me to greet forty-nine generals who had arrived from the Soviet Union. Fifty generals had departed from Moscow, but their plane did not arrive. We contacted Moscow to see if there was a delay, but they told us that the plane had departed on time. Everyone was getting worried. It turns out that one of the generals had died in flight, so they had to return to Simferopol to unload the body before coming here to the Got hotel on the banks of the Dead Sea. I was asked to greet them on behalf of our disabled veterans union. I arrived and recognized two of the generals, the group leader Army General Govorov and Lieutenant General Tsimbal. I did not know anyone else. We were sitting in the lobby waiting for everyone to assemble. My wife was sitting between me and Govorov, and the Lieutenant General sat right here. By the way, it was an illustrious group, there was only one general major, Govorov’s orderly, eighteen lieutenant generals, an army general, and two marshals. I saw that Govorov was not drinking anything despite the temperature being 42 degrees. I said to him, "Govorov, you must drink." "You know, the Moscow doctors have told me not to," he replied. I said, "With all due respect to your Moscow colleagues, but here you must drink." Then the lieutenant general spoke up and said, "You know, when I was in the academy the heat was nothing like this, it was 50 degrees in the shade. Our sergeant would give us a flask of water in the morning . . ." I interrupted him and said, "And in the evening that scumbag sergeant would check whether anyone had taken a sip." "How did you know?" he asked. I said, "You know General, I think you and I were in the same academy." He asked me which one. "The 1st Kharkiv Tank Academy," I said. He was dumbfounded. "What year?" he asked. "1943," I responded. "What company?" I said that I was in the 11th, and he said that he was in the 9th. That means that our bunks were opposite of one another. Then we began remembering the old days. It was only in the Holy Land that I was reunited with a friend from the academy. He asked me if I knew where all of the tank men are. Unfortunately, I know where they are. When I was in medical school I read an article titled "Combat Losses" in an encyclopedia, and discovered that the highest losses were in the armored units. This is true in all armies, if you go to the Wailing Wall, you will see that about 5,000 tank men have died in Israeli wars.

—After the war you attended medical school?

Yes.

—You chose to be a doctor because . . .

It became clear to me in hospital that I should become a doctor. While I was still recovering in the hospital I became an X-ray technician and a cast technician. I would learn by going to the OR on my crutches. That is when I decided to be an orthopedist. I knew that I needed to apply to medical school. My main task was to obtain a high school diploma, which I did within the span of a month. That was the hardest thing I have done in my life.

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Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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—Have you conducted surgeries?

Thousands of surgeries. My first surgery was my dream, a limb reattachment surgery. Not an amputation, but the replantation of a limb. The forearm had been amputated. The operation was on May 18, 1959 and was the first of its kind ever. I was the first person to successfully complete the procedure. It was risky, you can read about it in the journal "Surgery" No. 11, 1970.

—After all of the serious wounds you sustained, how did you manage to become a surgeon?

You know, it was not easy or simple because I have no control over my right thumb. I started training my left hand even when I was still a student. I trained it so well that now I tie knots better with my left hand than my right. I also practiced putting the correct amount of pressure on my scalpel. I would lay out tissue paper and give myself a task of cutting through a certain number of them. That is how I practiced. You cannot achieve anything if you don’t work for it, everything depends on practice and hard work.

—When did you finish medical school?

In 1951. I defended my candidate dissertation at the Central Institute for Traumatology and Orthopedics in 1965 and in 1973 I defended my doctoral dissertation at the feared 2nd Scientific Council of the Moscow Medical Institute.

—In 1951 on one hand there was you, who had fought in the war, with decorations, and wounds.

So it goes.

—On the other hand there is the Jewish question . . .

Cosmopolitanism, yes.

—The unsolved Jewish question.

I should show you the insert to my diploma. In all my years at the medical school I only received one "B" in biology during my first year. Not because I did not understand the material, but because I did not accept Darwinism. Professor Sotin told me that he could help me if I gave him my student report card. I said, "Mikhail Mikhailovich, this "B" is like an award to me, I don’t want you to change it." I got my degree summa cum laude, I already had two published works. I graduated summa cum laude, had two published works, I was a 2nd category disabled veteran, who could get any diploma. I said that I was ready to work as an orthopedist anywhere from the North Pole to the South Pole. I was sent to the Sverdlovsk Region as a GP. Not as an orthopedist, but as GP. Then I went to Moscow in order to explain to Comrade Stalin that

Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

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ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Anti-Semitism existed.

This was a veritable adventure. I spent three days in the Central Committee Pass Office and I went to see the director of the Central Committee Administrative department and told him that there was anti- Semitism in the USSR. He told me that there had been a misunderstanding. He made a telephone call to Kyiv and I was accepted into the residency program at the Orthopedics, Traumatology, and Military Medicine at the Institute of Medical Advanced Training. I worked there for three weeks and went to pick up my salary, but it turns out that I was not on the roster. The Institute had not gotten the relevant order. The Ministry got the order, but not the Institute. I went to the president of the institute twenty minutes before a scientific council meeting. He made jeered at me for twenty minutes and pretended that he did not know who I was. He then listed all of my awards and said that one could easily purchase them in Tashkent. I put my cane aside. You will have heard of my walking stick, it's standing right there. Let's see if you can lift it.

—They say it weighs 30 kg.

No, it only weighs 5 kg, but it is very difficult to lift with your arm extended. I put my stick down. Went around his T-shaped desk, approached him and held him by his embroidered Ukrainian shirt, and punched him in his mug. Blood gushed out immediately. The Party Committee secretary, who had been silent until then, began shrieking. Then the double doors swung open and a group of professors burst in, expressing a whole range of emotions from amazement to indignation. I saw all that and said to him, "You scumbag, I’ll tell you all about buying medals in Tashkent." I made my way through the crowd of professors toward the exit. I went to see the Deputy Minister of Health. He was already aware of the situation, had a good laugh, and transferred me to the Orthopedics Institute without ever paying me my three weeks’ salary. I was also henceforth known as a thug. A few years later, Professor Gorodinsky, head of the surgical department said to me, "You probably think that your phrase saved you, but cherchez la femme." It turns out that the wife of the Institute president and the wife of the newly-appointed Minister lived in the same apartment and began to squabble. Then the men took sides as well. You see, I had pleased the Minister with my punch and that is why I came out unscathed.

—We only have a few minutes left and I wanted to ask you about your poetry. When did you begin writing it?

I think that I began writing poetry at the front during the war, but the elder brother of one of my former classmates said otherwise. He graduated two years earlier and recalls that I came to congratulate his class with a poem . . . I don’t remember this at all, not a bit of it. However, I do remember the poetry I wrote during the war.

—Before I ask you to read a poem, I still have one more question.

Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

ID IS012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m54t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Go ahead.

—When your soon was 12 or 14, did you want to tell him about you wartime experience?

He asked me and I told him everything in great detail. He knows everything about me. He and I are thick as thieves, so . . . from childhood, his childhood we've been good friends. What’s more, my grandchildren know it too, although they do not know Russian.

—Oh, we know all about this. Our grandchildren speak English and only understand a little bit of Russian . . .

Mine don’t even understand.

—Please do read us one of your poems.

I will read one of my favorite poems for you, but perhaps it will surprise you that this poem is my favorite.

The air shook, a shot, some smoke, The old trees' branches have been knocked. But I am still alive and sound. By accident.

This is the poem. I remember where it was written. This poem war written in the Caucasus in 1942. Normally people ask me to read the one about the comrade in his final throws . . . But I’m a bit tired of that one, you know.

—Ah, but you see, I did not ask you to read that one.

Do you know it?

—Who doesn’t? Since I was good not to ask you to read it, could you read another poem?

This is from my civilian days. I will read you a poem that I wrote when I became a Jew. This was in 1956.

The day and its toils have passed, Like deafening, tearing blasts. But the empty windows' span Is gilded by the evening sun. Await me the warmth of my family,

Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

ID IS012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m54t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

A tender embrace of their hands, Books, music, Beethoven's symphony, And loyalty of my friends, And hope that doors will finally open, That tomorrow finally withers this wraith. My life has been all about hoping, But I believe, for I have my faith.

That is my poem.

—We still have five minutes and I want to use our time to the fullest.

Shall I read something else?

—I have another questions for you.

Go ahead.

—There have been several tragedies at American schools and universities where people come, shoot, and kill. After that the first people to come forward are psychologists who emphasize the importance of helping the survivors heal psychologically. Not to compare apples and oranges, but is this similar to your experience?

You know, this is a very good question. When I came here, I had no clue about PTSD, no idea about it. I was baffled when I heard that Israeli soldiers receive psychological help after battles. Only later . . . I did not know, you see. In my unit there was a Jewish tank commander named Lieutenant Segal. He was older, around 30. He was afraid to sit on the tank during movement, only inside the tank, which annoyed me. It would have been better for him to have ridden with some anti-Semite because I made fun of him relentlessly. I saw that he was afraid, but did not understand why he acted this way. I was afraid too but I hid it. There was no PTSD. Later, only when I gradually became a real Israeli did I understand that there is a serious gap in my medical education. I did not suffer from PTSD personally, so I cannot say anything from personal experience.

—But what about now, not through the eyes of the 16-year-old you were then?

Well, that poem I read to you was about a terrible day. In the evening this poem came to me, so I guess there was something.

—The situation and life in general was probably too complicated for PTSD?

Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

ID IS012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m54t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

No, we just didn’t think about it that way. There probably was something like that, but we did not know about it. As a doctor I should probably be able to tell you about it, but I cannot.

—Thank you very much. I do not know of a better word than Spasibo in Russian, it means may G-d save you.

May G-d save you, yes.

—I love Him very much.

Thank you for your efforts and all of your work, thank you.

. . . One time a vital piece of equipment broke during a surgery and an experienced nurse who was working with me asked me why I did not shout. I asked her if my shouting would have repaired the equipment. So, there.

Ion Degen. Full, unedited interview, 2008

ID IS012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m54t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

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