Tuesday Volume 520 14 December 2010 No. 90

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 14 December 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 795 14 DECEMBER 2010 796

to congratulate American diplomats on being such excellent House of Commons reporters and ask why our media are so lazy at foreign reporting? The only time we get foreign news on the Tuesday 14 December 2010 front pages is when WikiLeaks gives the media a story. Mr Browne: I do not wish to comment on the individual The House met at half-past Two o’clock case that the right hon. Gentleman has brought to the House’s attention. We all understand that there are areas of the private realm—health and tax records, for PRAYERS instance—where it is perfectly possible to release information, but where we would not wish to see it [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] released. We regard that as appropriate for diplomatic relations as well.

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): What Oral Answers to Questions contacts have the Minister or his officials had with their Swedish counterparts or authorities about the extradition of WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, from the UK to Sweden, and what assurance has the Minister sought or FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE received from Sweden about the widespread public concern that there might be a political dimension to these The Secretary of State was asked— proceedings?

Promoting Democracy (Internet) Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister will accept that his answer must relate specifically to the effectiveness of 2. Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): If he will the internet as a means of promoting democracy worldwide. assess the compatibility of the provisions of the Vienna convention on consular relations with the effectiveness Mr Browne: It is hard to answer the question within of the internet as a means of promoting democracy those confines. The matter to which the hon. Lady worldwide. [30259] refers is for the courts rather than me as a Minister. However, it touches on a wider point. I agree with the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth observation that you inferred from the question, Mr Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): There is no incompatibility Speaker, that the internet is a valuable tool for empowering between the Vienna convention on consular relations, people around the world, for opening up the world which is an international treaty ratified by 172 countries, politics and for giving people greater freedom of and which defines a framework for consular relations information. However, that should not be confused between independent countries, and the development of with safeguarding the legitimate private realm. the internet, which is indeed a vital tool in the development of democracy. However, we condemn the release of Gulf Countries classified information through the internet. That can damage national security and may put lives at risk. 3. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the state of Joseph Johnson: Will the Minister give an assessment relations between the UK and the countries of the of the impact of the WikiLeaks affair on the conduct of Gulf; and if he will make a statement. [30260] diplomacy, and will he say what steps he plans to take, on the one hand, to tighten access to diplomatic cables The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth that need protecting and, on the other hand, to free up Affairs (Mr William Hague): The Government are strongly access to the other information that can and should be committed to elevating our relations with all our partners in the public domain? The latter would also enhance the across the Gulf. We are expanding co-operation with Government’s transparency agenda. Gulf states across the board—in culture, education, defence and security, trade, investment, and foreign Mr Browne: We believe in freedom of information policy co-operation. Gulf states’ reactions to the increased and open and transparent government, but there is a engagement have been very positive, and we will maintain private realm and a legitimate area for confidentiality in the commitment in the coming years. diplomatic relations between nations. We need to get that balance right to ensure that we are secure when Paul Uppal: Over the summer, I met the British trying to safeguard confidential information. That is ambassador to the United Arab Emirates, Dominic what we are working to do. Jermey, who told me how impressed he was with the Prime Minister visiting the Emiratis in June. In view of Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): We have those warm words, will the Foreign Secretary tell me learned that the US Secretary of Defence, Mr Gates, what work his Department is undertaking to ensure believed that that British businesses are supported in exporting to “Russian democracy has disappeared and the government was an Gulf nations? oligarchy run by the security services”. Who could possibly disagree? Instead of the wet willies Mr Hague: I am very glad to know that the ambassador whimpering over WikiLeaks from the Front Bench and was pleased with the Prime Minister’s visit—it made a wanting to lock up Mr Assange, would it not be better huge impact on the United Arab Emirates. My hon. 797 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 798

Friend is right that my right hon. Friend the Prime Mr Hague: Although we did not discuss that specifically Minister made his visit in his first few weeks in office, at the NATO summit, it is clearly important that NATO and since then Her Majesty the Queen has made a state nations work together on training. It is also part of our visit to the UAE and many of us on the Government new defence treaty with France that the UK and France Front Bench have also visited, so there has been a will work together to a much greater extent on sharing serious elevation of relationships. It is also true that training facilities, so I will ensure that, between the there are many commercial opportunities, to which my Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence, we look at hon. Friend referred. We export about £15 billion-worth further opportunities in the area that my hon. Friend of goods and services to the Gulf, but we can do much has raised. more. British embassies in the region and UK Trade & Investment are now poised to put their efforts behind Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The Lisbon conference that. showed the same irrational optimism about Afghanistan. Can the Minister explain why, if things are going so David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): It was the worst kept well, after spending $52 billion in aid Afghans are still secret in foreign policy that the nation feared most by dying in the streets of Kabul of starvation? the Arab states of the Gulf is not Israel but Iran; we did not need WikiLeaks to tell us that. Given that that is Mr Hague: I do not think that the NATO summit now out in the open, is there an opportunity to forge a showed irrational optimism; I think that it showed new consensus—one that would embrace the countries realism about the situation in Afghanistan. Bringing not just of the EU but of the Gulf region—to convince together all 48 troop-contributing nations of the everyone of the absolute necessity of taking action international security assistance force in one of the sessions against Iran before it develops a nuclear capacity, which at the NATO summit in Lisbon underlined the fact that would be a threat to us all? there are now more countries engaged in what we are doing in Afghanistan than at any stage before. We in no Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman raises an important way minimise the fact that there are enormous challenges point. I am not going to comment on the WikiLeaks ahead of us on Afghanistan. Today I have laid before allegations, but of course there is enormous concern the House a written ministerial statement that updates about the dangers of nuclear proliferation in the middle hon. Members on where we think we are in Afghanistan. east being sparked by Iran’s policies on its nuclear Many of those challenges, including in development, programme. The Gulf states vary in their relationships remain. with Iran; we have to be clear about that. The United Arab Emirates have recently joined in applying financial Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): The Lisbon sanctions against Iran, whereas Oman has a different statement said nothing on the future of tactical nuclear and long historical relationship with Iran and a strong weapons in Europe. As the Foreign Secretary will be relationship with this country, and wants to use its good aware, the United Kingdom gave up its tactical nuclear offices to improve relationships between the west and weapons in the 1990s, as militarily useless and politically Iran. Each of the Gulf states is able to help in its own irrelevant. Will the British Government now support way, and the elevation of our relationships with them multilateral negotiations between NATO and Russia, encourages them to do that. We must join them in that, so that tactical nuclear weapons can be removed from consulting them and being open to their advice about Europe as a whole? how to deal with Iran and other regional issues. Mr Hague: As my right hon. and learned Friend will be aware, we said at Lisbon that NATO would remain a NATO Summit (Lisbon) nuclear alliance to meet current and future threats, which does not directly address his point. The statement 4. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): at Lisbon recognised the role that the alliance can play What assessment he has made of the outcomes of the in supporting wider disarmament and non-proliferation NATO summit in Lisbon; and if he will make a efforts. We agreed at the summit to reviewing how statement. [30261] NATO implements those principles. It will discuss all the strategic threats facing the alliance, and the capabilities The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth that we need to meet them, including nuclear deterrence Affairs (Mr William Hague): As the Prime Minister and missile defence. The argument that my right hon. made clear to the House on 22 November, the NATO and learned Friend presents will be part of that review. summit was a significant success. By agreeing a new strategic concept, the alliance has shown its determination North Atlantic Treaty to face the security challenges of the 21st century together. The summit also took important steps to strengthen 5. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): What euro-Atlantic security, in Afghanistan and in relations recent discussions he has with his US counterpart on with Russia. Our commitment to NATO is as strong as co-operation under the north Atlantic treaty; and if he ever. will make a statement. [30262]

Sheryll Murray: What discussions, if any, did the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary of State have at the NATO summit to encourage Affairs (Mr William Hague): Secretary Clinton and I the use of the excellent training facilities at HMS Raleigh worked together closely prior to and during the NATO and Flag Officer Sea Training in Devonport, which summit in Lisbon in November. During the summit, we contribute significantly to the local economy in the worked together to agree with other allies the new south-west? strategic concept as well as the way forward on Afghanistan. 799 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 800

The United States remains a firm ally of the United West Bank Kingdom and we will continue to work closely with it in NATO. 6. Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of Penny Mordaunt: Could the Secretary of State elaborate State for International Development on economic on what discussions he has had with the US on the gap development in the west bank; and if he will make a in our defence capability, and the implications of that statement. [30264] for international relations? I am thinking in particular of the gap in our carrier strike force. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): The Foreign Mr Hague: The United States has been very supportive Office and the Department for International Development of the conclusions of our strategic defence and security work very closely on this issue. I last had a conversation review—[HON.MEMBERS: “What?”] It has been extremely with the Minister of State, Department for International supportive, and Secretary Clinton reflected that in her Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for remarks. The US is pleased that we will continue to Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan) just before his visit spend more than 2% of our national income on defence, to the west bank in late October. We are encouraged by and that we will continue to have the fourth largest World Bank reports that the economy of the west bank military budget in the world. The fact that we are such a grew by 7.2% in 2009, and we hope that it is benefiting strong member of NATO, and that we have the strong from the stability under Prime Minister Fayyad and alliance of which I have been speaking and work so the easing of restrictions on movement and access by closely with the United States and France, will help us the Israeli Government. to work through some of the difficulties in the coming years while we get to an orderly state in our defences, Michael Dugher: I thank the Minister for that reply. which we certainly did not inherit and we have now to Does he agree that Israel’s decision to allow exports bring about. from Gaza is welcome and positive? Should not that serve to encourage all sides to look for further progress, Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Sea lanes of and the people of Gaza to reject Hamas? communication are a critical component of the global economy, especially those in the north Atlantic that Alistair Burt: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments. facilitate trade between the US and the UK. What The development of the economy of the west bank in discussions has the Foreign Secretary had with his recent years has been in sharp contrast to the development counterparts on maritime security co-operation within of the economy of Gaza—for a whole series of reasons. NATO, especially since the axing of the Nimrod MRA4? We would welcome the further expansion of the economy in Gaza, which has to come from an easing of the Mr Hague: Maritime security is an important component economic blockade. On that, we welcome the decision in NATO. It is primarily the work of my colleagues in announced by Israel last week further to ease the the Ministry of Defence to hold those discussions, but opportunity for exports from Gaza. The hon. Gentleman the hon. Lady can be assured that Defence Ministers is absolutely right in saying that it is economic prosperity have done so. In particular, my right hon. Friend the in both the west bank and Gaza that will make decisions Secretary of State for Defence has been working with on the future of the whole area that much easier. international colleagues on maritime security around the high north and the north Atlantic. That work is Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Would the going on, primarily in the Ministry of Defence, but it growing economic prosperity in the west bank not is of course supported in the Foreign Office. spread to Gaza and be even more impressive if there were full acceptance of the Quartet principles by Hamas Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The Prime and all parties in the middle east? Minister said last week that we might start drawing down troops from Afghanistan next year. Has the Foreign Alistair Burt: It is certainly true that the rejection by Secretary had any discussions with the United States Hamas of the Quartet principles and its failure to about what conditions would have to be met before denounce violence and to accept the state of Israel is such a draw-down could be put into effect? holding back any possible negotiations. Also, the illegal holding of Gilad Shalit for a further length of time is Mr Hague: My hon. Friend will be aware that my contrary to all our interests, and he should be released right hon. Friend the Prime Minister first talked about as soon as possible. It all goes to show that further that during his visit to Washington in July, as well as negotiation and talk is the best way to produce an reiterating the point during his trip to Afghanistan last overall settlement in the middle east, which is what we week. He said in Washington, around his discussions are all looking for. with the President, that such a draw-down “should be based on the conditions on the ground. The faster we Mr Speaker: I know we are focusing on economic can transition districts and provinces to Afghan control, clearly development in this question. the faster that some forces can be brought home.” That is the position of the United States as well as of Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Given the United Kingdom, and the Prime Minister and the what the Minister has said about economic development President have certainly discussed it together. in the west bank, does he share my concern that it is 801 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 802 not in the interests of the economic development of two centres in the north of the country. We are also that region to see the tightening rather than easing of aware that the ICRC has, after a review, already closed movement restrictions in the Jordan valley and Palestinians down its own operations in Mannar. and Bedouins being dispossessed in the Jordan valley? Siobhain McDonagh: The removal of the Red Cross Alistair Burt: The hon. Gentleman’s long interest in from the predominantly Tamil area shows contempt for the economic development of the west bank and all a renowned international non-governmental organisation other areas is well noted; we spoke in the Westminster and will seriously inhibit much needed aid and assistance. Hall debate the other day. The easing of all restrictions In light of the comments made by the new cardinal of is in the interests of all. That is why we welcome it when Colombo—that there is a dangerous trend of ethnic we find it and are concerned if there is any greater Sinhalese moving into Tamil areas—does the Minister restriction on access. The economic development of the agree with me that the real reason for removing the Red whole of west bank area and of Gaza is a crucial part of Cross was to allow for Government-supported demographic the development of the Palestinian state. The establishment change to go unchecked by independent monitors? of that valid state, side by side with a secure and recognised Israel, is of interest to us all. Alistair Burt: I am not sure whether I can speak for the Government of Sri Lanka in explaining how they Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The threat to made their decision, but it is certainly true that the the economic developments on the west bank and in the international community listens extremely carefully to rest of the region is, of course, dependent on the military the voice of the ICRC as an independent monitoring position. Is the Minister aware of the rockets, bombs body, and its unavailability will therefore have to be and anti-aircraft capability that Hamas has built up and compensated for elsewhere. The Government have does that not further threaten the security of the region? consistently pressed Sri Lanka to live up to its offer of post-conflict reconciliation, but moves such as restricting Alistair Burt: The Government have already expressed access to detainees and any restriction of the work of concern about the build-up of arms in the area by significant non-governmental organisations will make Hezbollah and Hamas, none of which is conducive to that process rather harder. what we all want: a negotiated peaceful settlement of the middle east process that is a secure and sovereign Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): One of the valuable Israel side by side a viable Palestine. tasks performed by the ICRC has been investigating the disappearance of young children throughout the Tamil Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): community and trying to repatriate them with any When the Minister visits the middle east in the new relatives who are still alive. Will my hon. Friend look year, will he press Israel further to reduce its restrictions into the possibility of pressing for that valuable work to on freedom of movement both for Palestinian people be allowed to continue? and for Palestinian goods? Free movement is crucial; so, too, is providing global opportunities for the Palestinians Alistair Burt: I will ask our posts in Sri Lanka to to trade with the rest of the world. In the Foreign Office consider it carefully. The fact that more people need to business plan, UK Trade & Investment is developing its return to the areas from which they were removed is strategy; will the Minister ensure that UK trade with another measure of the steps that are necessary in the the west bank is absolutely part of that UKTI strategy? post-conflict resolution, and although we have seen a great deal of progress over the years, more needs to be Alistair Burt: Yes, indeed; I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s done. comments. There was a successful investment conference in the west bank just a few months ago, and it is in the Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) interests of all that economic prosperity is encouraged (Lab): As the Minister will know, recent additional on all sides. It is in the interests of Israel to make sure footage from Channel 4 has shown Sri Lankan forces that there is as much access as possible—providing, of executing civilians at the end of the conflict. He described course, that its essential security interests are safeguarded. the ICRC as an independent international monitor, but, Wherever they have been threatened, as in Gaza, it as he will also know, there is serious concern about the remains necessary for the Israelis to control any materials continued lack of independent and transparent investigation that might detract from that. When it comes to economic of alleged war crimes in the country. Have Ministers development and movement, however, the hon. Gentleman urged the Sri Lankan Government to support a properly is absolutely correct. independent inquiry with international involvement, and did the Secretary of State for Defence also raise Sri Lanka (Red Cross Operations) those points in his meeting with the Sri Lankan President earlier this month? 7. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): What recent reports he has received on the decision by Alistair Burt: Our Government have made very clear the Sri Lankan authorities to end the operations of the to the Government of Sri Lanka that any process International Committee of the Red Cross in the north involving the examination of war crimes or other issues of that country. [30265] must be credible and must have an independent element. We suggested recently that those appointed to a United The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Nations panel should be the interlocutors with whom it and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): The Government would be wise for the Sri Lankans to be involved in an are aware that the Sri Lankan Government have asked effort to influence the international community. They the International Committee of the Red Cross to close have the first responsibility in dealing with the inquiry, 803 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 804 but if there is to be credibility in the international 9. Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): What recent community it is essential for there to be an international assessment he has made of the security situation in the element, and for the issues that have been raised recently Korean peninsula. [30267] to be looked into extremely carefully. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Yvette Cooper: I welcome and agree with what the Affairs (Mr William Hague): Tensions are likely to Minister has said, but I urge him to go further in remain high until North Korea abandons its provocative pressing the Sri Lankan Government to accept international behaviour and violation of UN resolutions, and creates involvement in order to increase the credibility of the the conditions for the resumption of talks by making report. verifiable progress towards denuclearisation. Talks between The Minister did not answer my question about relevant parties offer the best prospect for achieving a whether the Defence Secretary had also raised the issue, resolution of the dispute, but cannot succeed without trust. and I must press him for clarity. The Sri Lankan Ministry of External Affairs has said that the President and the Mr Bain: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that reply. Defence Secretary had Does he agree with the statement issued from last “discussed areas of assistance to Sri Lanka”, week’s trilateral summit of Japanese and South Korean Foreign Ministers with Secretary of State Clinton that and that North Korea’s actions have jeopardised peace in northern “There was agreement that the friendship between Sri Lanka and Asia and that North Korea’s provocative and belligerent the UK should be strengthened”. behaviour will be met by solidarity from all three countries? Will the Minister tell the House what status that agreement What representations will the UK continue to make to has, and whether all Ministers are taking every opportunity demonstrate the dissatisfaction of the British people to press for a credible investigation of war crimes? with North Korea’s continual flouting of UN resolutions?

Alistair Burt: The interest taken by my right hon. Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw Friend the Secretary of State in Sri Lanka dates back to attention to the statement from the United Kingdom, his time as a junior Foreign Office Minister in 1996, the United States and the European Union, and also when he helped to broker a ceasefire in the conflict that the associated statements from Japan. The Prime Minister was taking place then. He has retained that interest, and spoke to the UN Secretary-General and President Lee it is very helpful to the Government as a whole to have of South Korea on 24 November, and expressed our an interlocutor with such long-standing relationships. strong support for South Korea. In addition, we have The United Kingdom Government are united in respect held meetings in the past week: senior FCO officials of the issues that we raise with Sri Lanka. That process have met North Korean counterparts to relay our messages involves helping the Sri Lankan Government to understand and our clear view on recent events that North Korea what the international community requires, in monitoring should resume co-operation with the International Atomic what is currently happening, in access of NGOs to Energy Agency and ensure that all nuclear activity detainees, in further reconciliation following the conflict, adheres to the requirements of that agency, and that it and in providing opportunity for independent experts faces increasing isolation unless these matters are dealt to be involved in the inquiry. The Defence Secretary with. fully understands and appreciates that united position. Stephen Pound: The people of Ealing North keep a Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) very close eye on rising tension in the Yellow sea, partly (LD): Given the strong all-party interest in the House in because the embassy of the Democratic People’s Republic human rights in Sri Lanka, will the Minister reassure us of Korea is in Ealing—oddly enough, in the house that that conversations are continuing with the Commonwealth was formerly occupied by my hero, Sid James. Has the and its secretary-general to ensure that they do not step Foreign Secretary had any recent conversations with his back from their active interest in human rights issues colleague the Secretary of State for Defence about any generally and Sri Lanka in particular? British maritime presence in the area?

Alistair Burt: I am sure that is the case, and may I say Mr Hague: We are interested to know of the history in passing that we welcome the recent visit of a of buildings in Ealing in this respect. I imagine the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association group to building in question saw much more amusing times Sri Lanka? I have already met representatives who were when occupied by Sid James than when occupied by the on that trip. The visit shows the Commonwealth’s strong North Koreans. Nevertheless, our relations with that interest in Sri Lanka’s continuing development post-conflict. country are important, because we have to be able to I was greatly appreciative of the efforts made by Members pass clearly to them the messages I have just described. of this House in going on that trip and reporting back, Yes, of course I discuss this issue, and not only with my and I am sure that they will report back to the House right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, more fully at a later stage. but across Government through the framework of our National Security Council. The maritime presence in the area is more a concern of South Korea, Japan and Korean Peninsula the United States than of the United Kingdom, but we always keep that under review. 8. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the prospects Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): In for a resolution of the dispute in the Korean peninsula. view of the fact that China shares a border with North [30266] Korea, it might reasonably be thought that the Government 805 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 806 of the People’s Republic of China would have an interest The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign in stability on the Korean peninsula. What efforts has and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): the Foreign Secretary made to engage with his counterpart Central Asia is an important region for UK strategic in the PRC Government to encourage that country to interests. We value our constructive relationships with take an active role in reducing tension in the area? countries in this fast-developing region and want to strengthen these further. We have much to gain from Mr Hague: I have had many such discussions. Indeed, closer engagement on a range of issues, including those some of my earliest discussions on becoming Foreign relating to Afghanistan and democratic and other reform. Secretary some months ago were with my Chinese We are also seeking to deepen our commercial links. counterpart on the subject of Korea and encouraging stability there. It was part of the strategic dialogue I John Mann: Instead of the Government’s supine silence conducted with the Chinese leaders in July in Beijing. on Liu Xiaobo and their continued kowtowing to the My right hon. and learned Friend is right that China Communist party of China, is it not time they gave a has that interest in stability there, although that also much higher priority to building the newly emerged means that China is often very cautious about supporting democracies across central Asia with practical support the kind of language and the kind of condemnation and assistance? that we think is appropriate for North Korea’s recent actions. That makes it much more difficult to pass Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, strong Security Council resolutions about North Korean who is secretary of the all-party group on central Asia. violations of the type that we have recently seen. China We are working carefully and closely on supporting the interprets the need for stability quite differently from EU-central Asia strategy. Furthermore, the other day, the way we interpret it, but there is a strong and the Deputy Prime Minister attended a very important continuing dialogue about it between us and China. meeting of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, at which he met its president. I think that Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Given that North progress is being made all round. Korea has so far evaded two UN Security Council resolutions and is, despite international condemnation, Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): continuing attempts to enrich uranium, is there any Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the hope at all that it will not become a nuclear power? excellent work of Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, who did an excellent job in Mr Hague: North Korea makes many claims about the Balkans with the Dayton accords? its nuclear capabilities including, recently, about enrichment facilities. We are deeply concerned by reports that it is Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for building a new nuclear facility in violation, as my hon. those comments and I join him in paying tribute to Friend says, of two Security Council resolutions. We Mr Holbrooke, who was a remarkable statesman. He urge it to resume co-operation with the International made extraordinary progress that can be built on in the Atomic Energy Agency to ensure that all its nuclear future. activity adheres to IAEA safeguards agreements. Until North Korea makes verifiable progress on that, we urge Afghanistan the international community robustly to implement the existing United Nations sanctions. 11. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): What his most recent assessment is of the Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): political and security situation in Afghanistan; and if The Opposition welcome the Foreign Secretary’s he will make a statement. [30271] condemnation of North Korea’s recent unprovoked attacks on South Korea and I should like to associate The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth myself with the comments he made a moment ago. I Affairs (Mr William Hague): Earlier today I laid a want to press him further on his response to China’s written report on recent progress in Afghanistan before offer to host the emergency six-party talks. Does he the House as part of the Government’s commitment to regard that as the best way forward? keep the House regularly updated on the situation there. The report covers the security and political situation Mr Hague: I am grateful for the Opposition’s support. including the results of the recent elections, outcomes It always makes a difference in these diplomatic matters of the NATO conference in Lisbon, governance and if the House of Commons stands united. It will be regional engagement. noticed in the world that the House of Commons is absolutely united in condemning the recent actions of Tom Greatrex: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that North Korea. I do not think that an immediate return answer, but does he share my concern about the very to the six-party talks is the way forward as that would high rate of attrition in the Afghan police force? Some be, in a sense, a reward for North Korea’s behaviour. reports put the figure at 7,000 out of 35,000 over a very Other discussions and other ways forward will have to recent period. What action can be taken to ensure that be found. there is a stable and established police force in Afghanistan so that people there can have confidence in their civil Central Asia policing arrangements?

10. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What recent Mr Hague: This is a vital matter and the hon. Gentleman assessment he has made of the state of UK relations is right to draw attention to it. The written report I set with the countries of central Asia. [30270] before the House today shows that by mid-November 807 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 808

Afghan national police strength had reached 116,000 a Pentagon report that says that the time line given by and is on track to meet the target of 134,000 by next President Obama for the withdrawal of American forces November. One of the crucial matters is an increase in has given aid, succour and assistance to the Taliban. the rate of training the Afghan national police, as well Have we been wise to follow that example? as reducing attrition. For most categories of police officer, attrition rates have fallen in recent times, and the Mr Hague: There are many conflicting reports, as my NTM-A—the NATO training mission for Afghanistan— hon. Friend will be more aware than most. It is argued reports an increase of around a third in the number of by some that the references by the President to a draw-down trained officers and a twofold increase in the number of beginning in July 2011 gave some in Afghanistan the trained non-commissioned officers. Clearly, the Afghan impression that there would be a complete withdrawal national police are being built up, despite the difficulties of forces in 2011. Anybody who is expecting that is in to which the hon. Gentleman refers. for a shock, because the combination of the surge of NATO forces we have seen recently and the now fairly Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Our strategy rapid build-up of the Afghan national security forces in Afghanistan oscillates between infantry-intensive means that more forces are deployed against the Taliban counter-insurgency campaigning, at high cost, and advance than ever before. Clearly, that build-up will continue, notice that we are going to withdraw, which puts pressure with the huge increases projected for the Afghan forces on one side to compromise, but not on the other. Will up to 2014. What we say about 2015 is in no way in my right hon. Friend at least keep his mind open to the conflict with that. possibility of alternative strategies, such as the strategic base and bridgehead area solution, which would allow Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): May I associate the us to secure our strategic interests at lower cost, and Opposition with the tributes to Richard Holbrooke, a thus square the circle? tireless worker for peaceful solutions to conflicts around the world, most recently in Afghanistan? There, in a Mr Hague: There will always be a strategic debate couple of weeks, our troops will be celebrating Christmas about Afghanistan. There is no oscillation about those far from their families, and we send them our thanks infantry-intensive campaigns. Our troops continue to and best wishes, and look forward to welcoming them do an extraordinary job, and as the Prime Minister has home. said in the House and elsewhere, they are able to do Can the Foreign Secretary fully reassure the House, it more effectively now that we have the right in the light of previous questions, that any draw-down concentration—the right density—of forces in Helmand, will be determined by conditions on the ground and not where our troops are mainly deployed. The whole of by the calendar? What conditions will be needed for NATO has the strategy of building up the Afghan combat troops to be pulled back from Afghanistan, national security forces to the point where they can lead especially when we approach 2014-15? and sustain their own operations throughout Afghanistan by 2014. It is consistent with that for us to say that we Mr Hague: I want to pay tribute to Ambassador will not be engaged in combat operations by 2015. We Holbrooke in a moment, at the beginning of topical are joined with 47 nations in pursuing our strategy, questions. I join the right hon. Gentleman in his comments therefore we should not try to change it on a daily or about our forces in Afghanistan. Throughout the Christmas weekly basis. period they will, I hope, be in the minds of all of us in the House. The conditions on the ground that are Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): necessary for any draw-down or any change in the May I bring the right hon. Gentleman back to the deployment of forces to begin over the next few years answer he gave to the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs are successful transition of districts and provinces. We Committee? We can all recall the Prime Minister saying made it clear at the NATO summit that we want that to in the summer that the combat mission would come to begin early in 2011, but that does not always mean that an end in 2015, but no one can recall the Prime Minister forces that then become available are withdrawn. Many saying at that stage that British troops would start of them can be redirected into training. In recent months leaving Afghanistan next year. When was that first said we have moved 300 additional forces into training. and why? Although Canada is withdrawing its combat forces, it announced at the NATO summit that almost 1,000 Mr Hague: The people who did not hear it were not trainers would be made available for Afghanistan. It is listening to the BBC on 21 July, when in this form that transition takes place and, as a result, “Mr Cameron was asked whether people could expect British there will be adjustments from time to time in the forces to follow the Americans in starting to pull out of Afghanistan deployment of the forces of the 48 nations involved. from next year. The prime minister said: ‘Yes we can, but it should be based on the conditions on the ground. The faster we can Topical Questions transition districts and provinces to Afghan control, clearly the faster that some forces can be brought home’.” T1. [30283] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): If he will That is still on the BBC website. What my right hon. make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Friend said last week—also in answer to a question—was simply repeating what he had said in Washington last The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth July. Affairs (Mr William Hague): The whole House will join me, and several Members have already done so, in Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): Further to the question paying tribute to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, put by the right hon. Member for Coventry North East President Obama’s special representative for Afghanistan (Mr Ainsworth), the Foreign Secretary will be aware of and Pakistan, who died last night. He was not only a 809 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 810 remarkable diplomat and public servant who served his Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) country with great distinction, but someone who, through (Lab): May I join the Foreign Secretary in his tribute to his efforts, brought an end to Europe’s worst bloodshed Richard Holbrooke? The right hon. Gentleman will since the end of the second world war in Bosnia- agree that this is a moment when we should not just pay Herzegovina in the 1990s. Today, as it happens, is the tribute to Ambassador Holbrooke’s previous work, but 15th anniversary of the signing of the Dayton peace recognise that his death is a great loss to the peace accords, which Ambassador Holbrooke forged and which process in Afghanistan and to the work that is ongoing. brought that appalling conflict to an end. In serving his The Foreign Secretary referred to the EU Council, country, he also saved countless lives and helped pull an which will meet on Thursday to discuss a treaty change entire country back from the brink. His death is a sore that has not been debated in this House, where for the loss to international diplomacy. third time since the election we have not had a pre-Council The December European Council takes place later debate. Why are the Government agreeing to treaty this week. The Prime Minister will attend. The agenda changes without debating them first in the House, and includes economic policy, including limited treaty change, will they propose any further treaty changes of their the EU budget and the EU relationship with strategic own? partners. A stable eurozone is in our economic interest, but any treaty change must not transfer competence or Mr Hague: The right hon. Lady is quite right about power from the United Kingdom to the EU. Ambassador Holbrooke. I spoke about his previous outstanding record, and it is quite true as well that we Fiona Mactaggart: This morning in Strasbourg the will feel his loss in current events and in the work that is European Parliament debated and passed, with support ongoing in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We clearly stand from British MEPs in every political party represented united in the House in reflecting on that. in this House, a resolution on the EU trafficking directive. On the European Council and the subject of debates, Has the Foreign Secretary discussed international action there is some force in the points that hon. Members and collaboration against human trafficking with any make about such matters being debated in the House. of his European counterparts in the past six months, The days that were previously set aside for European and does he expect to have such discussions in future? Council debates are among those that have gone into the pot, as it were, to be allocated by the Backbench Mr Hague: Yes, of course, the Government expect to Business Committee. The right hon. Lady might say have many such discussions. My right hon. Friend the that the Government should allocate more time, but the Home Secretary is in the lead on these matters. Discussions Government gave away that time, and let us be fair, the take place between Governments all the time. I have Opposition also have time on the Floor of the House, argued for many years that Governments can do more with their Opposition days. That is the current position, together to deal with the issue. Our predecessors did so however, and the Backbench Business Committee should 200 years ago, and we should be able to do so today. very much take those points into account. That does not mean that we opt in to every EU directive In accordance with the European Union (Amendment) on the matter if we are already taking necessary actions Act 2008, no Government can agree to a treaty change anyway and can retain the freedom to take actions as we without bringing it to the House for a vote and, indeed, wish to determine them in the House, but the responsibility to the other House, so, the Government’s formal agreement of all nations to take action against trafficking is very to a treaty change will in any case require a debate and clear. vote in this House. We will treat any new treaty change in line with the requirements of the European Union [30284] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) T2. Bill, which is now before the House, meaning that a (Con): Last week the Nobel peace prize was awarded to change will also require an Act of Parliament. So, any Liu Xiaobo as he languishes in a Chinese jail. This such change that might be agreed this week will require comes as some EU states want to lift the arms embargo exhaustive examination in this House. on China. Does my right hon. Friend join me in deploring China’s record of state torture and crushing peaceful dissent? Will he stiffen spines in Brussels Several hon. Members rose— so that the EU sends a clear message to China that it cannot behave like a thug and expect normal Mr Speaker: Order. I just gently remind the House commercial relations? that topical questions are supposed to be characterised by short and snappy, as well of course as informative, Mr Hague: We have no plans to lift the arms embargo answers. on China. I have made that clear in EU discussions, which I think is what my hon. Friend was asking for. We T4. [30287] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): have also made it clear where we stand on Liu Xiaobo. Will the Minister outline what actions his Department A few minutes ago the hon. Member for Bassetlaw is taking to strengthen the democratic process in the (John Mann) accused the Government of supine weakness, run-up to and during next year’s elections in African but he was guilty of rather spectacular ignorance because countries, other than in the Sudanese referendum? it was one of the main issues that we flagged up on international human rights day, and which I placed on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign the Foreign Office website and spoke about in my and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): message on international human rights day, so we have The ongoing problems in Côte d’Ivoire illustrate the been clear where we stand on the awarding of the Nobel importance of elections running smoothly. That is why prize, and of course our ambassador attended that in Nigeria we are supporting the electoral commission ceremony. in the run-up to next year’s presidential elections. In 811 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 812

Uganda, we are providing a range of assistance and October Council, we are also working on the next advancement actions, including the Department for financial perspective because, unlike the previous International Development’s “deepening democracy” Government who gave away billions of pounds of British programme. Finally, on Zimbabwe, there must be credible taxpayers’ money in negotiating a financial perspective, action that commands the support of the world community. we want the next European financial perspective to reflect the budgetary disciplines of the member states T3. [30286] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): involved. Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on what recent discussions he has had with his US counterparts T6. [30289] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) on the planned closure of Guantanamo Bay and the (Con): We learned last week that the United States return of the remaining detainees to their home considers the growth of China’s influence in Africa to countries, including Shaker Aamer, who has been held be a very worrying development. Will my right hon. for nine years without trial? Friend indicate whether the Government are also concerned about the Chinese Government’s rush to Mr Hague: I raised this with Secretary Clinton on my secure the friendship of undemocratic yet often last visit to Washington a few weeks ago, I think on 17 resource-rich African countries. November—I mentioned specifically the case of Shaker Aamer. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister Mr Bellingham: When I was in Angola last week, I also raised that case with Secretary Clinton, when he had a chance to see the scale of Chinese investment. It is met her in Astana in Kazakhstan a couple of weeks clear to us that China offers great opportunities for ago, so the US Administration are very clear about many African countries. Transparency and governance where we stand and, indeed, our overall position on the are key if we are to get the best out of such investments. closure of Guantanamo Bay. That is going through a That is why my right hon. Friend raised these issues in process of examination in the State Department and in the recent UK-China dialogue on Africa and the subsequent other US Government Departments, but they are in no UK-China summit. doubt of our request. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The UK Government T5. [30288] Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) say that they want to improve bilateral and defence (Con): What defined Ambassador Holbrooke was not relations with Norway. The Secretary of State will simply his energy and his knowledge of language and understand that the Norwegians are particularly concerned culture, but his ability when he was a young diplomat in about maritime reconnaissance and fast jet co-operation. Vietnam to speak truth—uncomfortable truth—to How can UK claims have any credibility, given that the power. What is the Foreign Secretary doing to ensure UK has just scrapped its maritime reconnaissance fleet that young diplomats who follow in Ambassador and is still considering the closure of the fast jet base Holbrooke’s footsteps—who understand language and closest to Norway? culture and speak truths to power—are promoted within the Foreign Office system? Mr Hague: I discussed some of those matters with the Norwegian Foreign Minister when he was here a Mr Hague: Working with the Foreign and few weeks ago. My colleague, the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Office board, I have recently launched Defence, has also had discussions with Norwegian Defence a diplomatic excellence initiative. The initiative is designed Ministers. As I mentioned earlier, my right hon. Friend to bring about exactly the kind of thing to which my the Defence Secretary is intensifying co-operation with hon. Friend is referring and to ensure that we achieve other states towards the north of NATO on what we the highest standards of policy making and diplomatic can do together. Those countries, including Norway, action in the Foreign Office for the long-term future. It continue to regard the United Kingdom as an indispensible is vital for this country that the FCO is a strong institution partner in the years ahead. We are a great deal more for the long term, with great geographical expertise and indispensible than we would be if the country were real diplomatic excellence and policy skills. We are broken up and Scotland became an independent nation. taking other action to bring in external expertise in the area of human rights—I have formed an external group T7. [30290] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) of experts—and I am open to other suggestions and (Con): Can my hon. Friend the Minister give an advice from around the House. assessment of the position of Christians in Iraq and of the respect for the human rights of minorities in that T8. [30291] John Robertson (Glasgow North West) country (Lab): Further to the question of my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign (Yvette Cooper), which the right hon. Gentleman did and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I was in Iraq not answer, what kind of amendments are the Government a couple of weeks ago and had meetings both with proposing to bring to the meeting on Thursday? Government Ministers and Archbishop Matoka, the archbishop in the diocese where the church was so Mr Hague: The situation will, of course, be discussed outrageously attacked a few weeks ago. Ministers are by the 27 Heads of Government at the European Council. well aware of the need to protect minorities in Iraq. The We are very clear that if there is a treaty change concerning way in which any state looks after minority communities, the eurozone, there must be no obligation on the United particularly the uniquely vulnerable Christian community Kingdom. If eurozone countries wish to form a mechanism, in Iraq, is taken as an indication of how that country it cannot be one that places an obligation on the United functions. Ministers are well apprised of world-wide Kingdom. As the hon. Gentleman will recall from the concern and have a desire to look after that community. 813 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 814

Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): In an earlier Mr Hague: The Government do press the Iranian answer, the Foreign Secretary referred to the intention authorities. Indeed, our ambassador in Tehran has recently to hand provinces and districts in Afghanistan over to been sharply criticised by the Iranian Government for Afghan security forces. Will he confirm that the original raising human rights issues so clearly in his own comments. plans put forward by General McChrystal have been What is even more striking is that far beyond Government, scrapped and that the position being put forward by the the people of this country—the civil society of this international coalition is based on a hope, a wing, a country, and those of so many other countries around prayer, and an assumption that the Afghans will come the world—are appalled that the barbaric and mediaeval forward in an effective way, but we have no basis on punishment of stoning can still be contemplated, and which we can know that? are additionally sickened by the idea that a pretence can be made of releasing this lady only to make a film that Mr Hague: It is not just based on a hope, a wing and is then meant to assist the Iranian state in saying what it a prayer; to say that would be unfair to everyone involved. wants to about her case. We believe that the punishment I hope that the hon. Gentleman will look at the report should be set aside and that Iran would do itself a great that I have laid before the House today, which looks at deal of good in the world if it did so, and we call upon the Afghan national army’s 28 brigade and corps units Iran again today to do so. and says that seven are now capable of undertaking operations with minimal advice, and then goes through Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): to grade the rest of them. It is also important to bear in Does the Secretary of State agree that the success of mind that, as the report points out, 70% of the violence joint projects between Israel and the Palestinians, such in Afghanistan is in four of its 34 provinces. That as the tourism initiative between Jenin and Galilee, illustrates how dramatically different conditions are in exposes the absurdity of calls for boycotts of Israel? different parts of Afghanistan, which means that transition will be able to take place in some areas years before it can take place in others. Alistair Burt: Yes, the hon. Lady makes a fair point. It is not through boycotts that influence is exercised but Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Is the through continuing co-operation. That is the best way Minister aware of the situation facing my constituent, forward to the negotiated settlement that we all want to Mr Shrien Dewani, and can he inform the House of see in the interests of all those in the middle east. what measures his Department is taking to ensure that he receives appropriate British support? Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The UK rightly supports an international ban on cluster munitions, Mr Bellingham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. which is why it was very concerning to read the published When I was in South Africa 10 days ago, I raised this claims on WikiLeaks that the last Labour Government case with the consul general and his team. He made it had allowed the US to stockpile cluster munitions on clear not only that had everything possible been done to UK territory. What reassurances can the Secretary of support Mr Dewani but that if he returns to South State give that no such violation has occurred, or will Africa, he will receive full consular support. My hon. occur, under this Government? Friend has done all that she possibly can to help the family and has been absolutely exemplary in what she has done to assist them. Mr Hague: Those things on WikiLeaks would be concerning if they turned out to be true, but I see no Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): What evidence that Parliament was misled. Of course, we do improvements have happened to the lives of ordinary not have access to the papers of the previous families in Helmand province to justify a change of Administration, but I have not seen anything that suggests policy in moving forward to 2011 the 2014 date for the that Parliament was misled. My hon. Friend will be beginning of withdrawal of troops? glad to know that the withdrawal of cluster munitions from all United Kingdom territory has been completed Mr Hague: As I have said before, I stress that there is ahead of schedule. no change in policy. The Prime Minister has also reiterated what he has said before. However, that very much Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will the depends on the conditions prevailing on the ground. Foreign Secretary raise with the Moroccan Government There are improvements in Helmand; there is no doubt the situation facing Western Sahara and the future of about that. There are security improvements. There are UN negotiations that aim to bring about a referendum places in Helmand where vastly more people are going on self-determination and bring an end to that more to school, where more roads are working, and where than 30-year conflict? health centres are open, which was not the case one year or two years ago. What we do in Helmand, and any withdrawal of troops from Helmand, will continue to Alistair Burt: I was in Algeria and Morocco recently be dependent on those improvements in conditions. and raised the issue of Western Sahara. We have pressed all parties to continue negotiations and to look to the T9. [30292] Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): My UN to assist. Ambassador Ross is working to that end. right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken out We have pressed in particular the importance of an against the dreadful plight of Sakineh Ashtiani, who independent monitoring process in Western Sahara, to was convicted in Iran of having so-called illicit assist transparency when looking at events such as the relationships and now faces the prospect of death by recent tragedy in Laayoune. This issue has gone on for stoning. Will he update the House on what recent steps too long, and it will not solve itself. the Government have taken to press the Iranian authorities to stay this barbaric execution? Several hon. Members rose— 815 Oral Answers 14 DECEMBER 2010 816

Mr Speaker: Last, but not least, Mr Stewart Jackson. Courts Service Estate

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): On human 3.36 pm rights abuses in Iran, does my hon. Friend share my concern over the fate of the Christian pastor, Youcef The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Nadarkhani, who has reportedly been sentenced to (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): With permission, Mr Speaker, death by the Iranian authorities for apostasy. Will the I wish to announce the Government’s response to their Foreign Secretary set out what the Government intend consultation on Her Majesty’s Courts Service estate. to do to relieve pressure on Christians and other minority Thank you for allowing me to release details of the groups in Iran? courts covered in the statement to Members in advance. This statement will be of interest to many hon. Members Alistair Burt: In 2009, there were some 388 executions and to many hard-working members of HMCS staff. It in Iran, including those of juveniles and women. We will also be of interest to the judiciary, both to professional join with other nations around the world to condemn judges and the very many magistrates who give freely of the way in which it is used as a form of punishment. I their time to serve their communities. My announcements understand that Pastor Nadarkhani’s sentence and case pave the way for a better, more efficient and more are under review by the Iranian authorities. It is essential modern justice system that has more efficient courts, that the world continues its pressure in relation to Iran. better facilities, and the faster conclusion of cases for A state is judged by how it looks after its minorities. In the benefit of victims, witnesses, defendants, judges and Iran, that includes the vulnerable Christian community the public at large. and other communities of faith, such as the Baha’i. The announcements complement the Department’s wider plans to help and encourage people to resolve their issues out of court, using simpler, more informal remedies such as mediation where appropriate; to overhaul case management procedures and get rid of wasteful layers of bureaucracy; to move forward with technological innovations such as video links, which have the potential to revolutionise the way in which justice is delivered in our country; and to involve communities much more closely in the justice system, particularly through problem solving and restorative justice approaches. On 23 June, my right hon. and learned Friend, the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, made a written statement announcing consultations on proposals to close 103 magistrates courts and 54 county courts in England and Wales, and to merge some local justice areas. The consultation was clear that failures in the last decade to manage the Courts Service estate properly have led to a service that would be unsustainable at any time, let alone in the current financial circumstances. It is unsustainable that in 2009-10, our 330 magistrates courts sat for less than two-thirds of their available time and that courtrooms in our 219 county courts sat on average for only 180 days a year. It is unacceptable that dozens of buildings never intended, and not fit, for the requirements of a modern court system are still being used. It is undesirable in the current financial position that the taxpayer continues to fund buildings that offer outdated and inadequate facilities to victims and witnesses. I am grateful for the many contributions to the consultation. I understand the strength of feeling that is has generated, and I have listened to the many points made by respondents. Much has been said by Members about travel times to court. I can reassure the House that our plans will only very slightly reduce the percentage of the population able to access their nearest court by public transport in under an hour, from just under 90% to 85%. I also remind the House that very few of us actually attend court more than once or twice in our lives, and even fewer use public transport to get there. It is simply not good use of taxpayers’ money to operate courts simply to shave minutes off a journey that many will never need to make. Arguments were also made during the consultation about the potential erosion of local justice. I take that accusation extremely seriously, but the closures will not 817 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 818 mean people losing access to local justice. In fact, I victims and witnesses, when appropriate, to be able to would suggest that they will mean quite the opposite—better give evidence in trials by live video link from a more local justice. They will mean the provision of a better, convenient location. more efficient and more modern justice system with We will begin by testing the principle of police officers good facilities, efficient courts and the faster conclusion giving evidence in summary trials by live video link of cases for the benefit of victims, witnesses, defendants, from the police station. We expect that that will save the judges and the public. police time and money and enable more officers to Having taken all those points into consideration, the spend more time out on patrol. We intend to test the Government have decided to close 93 magistrates courts idea in London in January, and in at least one other and 49 county courts. Of those county courts, however, area soon afterwards, with the first cases likely to be 10 will remain open for hearings under the control of heard in that way before the end of March. If successful, other local county courts. We will also retain 10 magistrates that could pave the way for civilian and expert witnesses courts and five county courts on which we consulted, to give evidence from a police station or other, more and I will list them. Magistrates courts will be retained convenient locations, rather than having to travel to at Abergavenny, Harlow, Kettering, Newbury, Newton court. Abbot, Skipton, Spalding, Stroud, Waltham Forest and We also want to give communities a greater say in Worksop. County courts will be retained at Barnsley, how justice is administered in their areas. Proposals for Bury, Llangefni, the Mayor’s and City of London, and problem solving and restorative justice were included in Skipton. my Department’s sentencing and rehabilitation Green Paper, published last week. We will consult on the use of It is estimated that those measures will save £41.5 million neighbourhood justice panels to deal with low-level during the spending review period, excluding closure cases, empowering people to develop their own solutions costs, and bring in £38.5 million in receipts from the to local problems and increasing community confidence. sale of assets. In addition, I expect substantial cost avoidance through avoided maintenance costs for closed In summary, this announcement forms an important courts and better targeting of resources for the Courts part of my Department’s clear vision for a step change Service, as well as savings for the National Offender in our justice system—one that protects communities Management Service and the Crown Prosecution Service. from crime and works for, rather than against, the most Copies of all the relevant documents, and of the decisions important people in the system: the victims and witnesses. on local justice area mergers and counter services, have I commend the statement to the House. been placed in the House Library. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I am pleased This is the start of an important programme of to see the Minister at the Dispatch Box for this important reform for the Courts Service. I am determined to statement on the delivery of justice in local communities. develop a proper, modern Courts Service and estate I thank him for a copy of his statement in advance. that does our communities proud. We are taking the We missed the Minister in the debate on legal aid in difficult action on court closures that the last Government Westminster Hall this morning. Members from all parties failed to take, so that we can raise the quality of the spoke passionately in defence of their law centres and courts estate significantly across the board. citizens advice bureaux, which, like local courts, are With that in mind, I can announce today that £22 million facing wholesale closure. He will be pleased to hear that of capital will be reinvested to improve and modernise his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General did as the courts to which work will be transferred. Within well as the Minister would have done in carefully avoiding that are three particularly large projects: in London at responding to the many points that were raised. Camberwell Green magistrates court, in Staffordshire Launching the consultation on court closures in June at Newcastle-under-Lyme magistrates court and in Wales this year, the Minister said: at Prestatyn magistrates court. There are also smaller “The Government is committed to supporting local justice, schemes to make some receiving courts better. They enabling justice to be done and seen to be done in our communities.” include additional interview rooms and a secure dock at I agree with that statement, but his statement today Huddersfield magistrates court and the conversion of does not achieve that ambition. Perhaps a clue as to rooms at Watford magistrates court to provide additional where the Government started to go wrong can be staff accommodation and security. In the next spending found in the next paragraph of the statement launching period, new courts will open in Chelmsford, Colchester the consultation, which said that and Westminster, and Woolwich Crown court will be extended. We will make further announcements on new “we increasingly use the internet and email to communicate…and court building schemes early in the new year. we travel further…to do our weekly shop.” Perhaps we do, but that misses two points. First, courts We have, however, cancelled existing plans for a new are not like Facebook or Tesco. They are an important magistrates court in Liverpool, because the scheme that part of many communities in the same way as people was proposed is unaffordable, but I will investigate regard police stations and town halls. more affordable options to provide suitable accommodation for magistrates court work in Liverpool. Claimants and defendants, witnesses and victims will all be inconvenienced and, in many cases, disconcerted Our courts are failing fully to embrace technological by the loss of the local criminal or civil court, or both, advances that have the potential to revolutionise the only to find them replaced with anonymous court centres way in which justice is delivered in our country. There is many miles away. Secondly, not everyone has the mobility much that can be done. Court-to-prison video links or resources to travel long distances to find justice, provide a much more efficient way of doing things, but especially in rural or remote areas. My first question to they are used in too few cases. In future, we want the Minister is to ask him to produce the calculations 819 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 820 that have been done to determine the time it will take as Opposition Members, none more so than the Solicitor- and the distance that will be covered in travelling to the General, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough replacement courts. He says that only a minority of (Mr Garnier), who told his local paper: court users will be disadvantaged, but that is not the “I urge residents of Harborough and the surrounding locality view of the Lord Chief Justice or of his own colleagues. to respond to the consultation…we need to organise and get the Responding on behalf of the Lord Chief Justice, Lord campaign rolling.” Justice Goldring noted that poor public transport meant The International Development Secretary was even more it would be difficult for many people to incensed about the proposed closure of Sutton Coldfield “arrive at court before 10am or return home after 4pm”. court. He told his local paper that the “very strong arguments which successfully defeated the attempt Will the Minister look again at travel arrangements and to close Sutton Magistrates’ Court eight years ago will be just as the times of journeys to the remaining courts after the strong, if not stronger”. Department for Transport and council cuts have taken The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation effect? and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton The Minister consulted on closing 103 magistrates (Mr Davey), criticised the Treasury. He said: courts and 54 county courts, 30% of the total in England “The Ministry of Justice seem to have made serious errors with and Wales. He said today that 90% of that number will their figures…it’s not just us they’re after, but 102 other courts close—some 142. That would give an annual saving, across the country. Yet I believe the fight is worth having—and based on his previous figures, of about £13 million, that we can win.” which is not significant in the context of the wholesale No critic was stronger than the former shadow Justice cuts going on in other parts of his Department but is a Minister, who is now Attorney-General. He said: sizeable proportion of the running costs of lower courts. “It makes a mockery of British justice that this government is Will all this simply be handed to the Chancellor in the considering closing 21 magistrates courts, despite the serious compliant if not willing way the Lord Chancellor has problems of violent crime and anti-social behaviour we face.” taken to adopting in asset stripping his Department? Or Conservative and Lib Dem Members have all sounded will some be reinvested in the remaining courts estate to off in their local press and in the House, but as reported improve the service to the public that the Minister says in the Evening Standard, this is an he wishes to see and to cope with the increased traffic “I back cuts - but Not In My Backyard” from the closed courts? policy. Opposition to the Minister’s policy is growing all The Minister said that some capital will be reinvested over the Government Benches, including from those on in specific projects, but there is no allowance for the the Front Bench. Opening the gates of the prisons and extra pressures on remaining courts. Is that not proof handing ballot papers to the few left inside looks that this is no more than a crude cost-cutting exercise positively— with none of the benefits that he half-heartedly claims? Mr Speaker: Order. I trust that the shadow Minister He also said in July that is in his final sentence. He has taken almost as long “Providing access to justice does not necessarily mean providing responding to the statement as the statement itself a courthouse in every town or city.” took. Members must realise that this is not a debate. A We would not disagree with that. Needs change and response to a statement is a brief response and a series buildings wear out or prove unsuitable. It is right to of questions. I hope that that is now clear for the future, seek economies while maintaining access and making because sight has been lost of it, and must be regained the administration of justice more efficient. Although at once. every closure decision is difficult, and many older courts have a historic and nostalgic importance, in government Mr Slaughter: I am most grateful, Mr Speaker—you we were prepared to close less well-used or poorly predicted absolutely correctly that I am coming immediately functioning courts. We were endlessly criticised by the to the end of my response to the Minister’s statement. Minister for doing so, but the difference between our This wholesale closure sums up the Government’s programme of review and his wholesale massacre of the approach to cutting local services in this and every local justice system is clear both from the quantity of other area—“Let’s get on with the cuts and worry about closures proposed and the haste with which they will the effects later.” This programme of closures amounts now proceed. to a wholesale destruction of this foundation stone of much of British justice, and the Minister should be What is the Minister’s timetable for shutting the ashamed to bring it before the House. doors of those historic courts? Why has he not published the results of the consultation before today? What Mr Djanogly: In his rather concise statement—or impact assessments have been done? Is he prepared to perhaps it was not—the shadow Minister said that the defend the debilitating effect that longer journey times savings are not particularly significant, and then immediately and unfamiliar surroundings will have on the frailest in went on to accuse the Government of asset stripping. I our society, who often attend courts as victims and do not see the consistency in that. However, the economic witnesses? Many domestic violence courts and family circumstances that Britain faces and the imperative of courts will have to move or close. What arrangements reducing the national debt pile amassed by the previous has he made to ensure that they go to suitable locations? Government’s bout of carefree spending impacts on Under the previous Tory Government between 1979 our proposals, which form part of the commitment of and 1997, courts closed at the rate of 25 a year and, the Ministry of Justice to reducing spending by £2 billion. under the previous Labour Government, that fell to Savings apart, I am convinced that the current court 13 a year, but now the Minister is proposing to close system is not efficient enough, that it should provide almost 150 in this Government’s first year. To be fair, better value for money, that it should make better use of his colleagues have been as critical of the closure programme technology, and that it should provide a better service 821 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 822 for court users. The hon. Gentleman accuses me of Mr Speaker: Order. As usual, there is much interest the wholesale closure of legal aid and CABs, and of the and little time, so brevity from Back-Bench and Front-Bench wholesale massacre of the Courts Service, but he must Members is vital if I am to accommodate the level of tell us where he would rationalise and save. interest. The Labour party manifesto said: Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Minister “To help protect frontline services, we will find greater savings in legal aid and the courts system”. is well aware, not least from correspondence from me, that the data on which he based the Knowsley magistrates If the hon. Gentleman is to be credible, therefore, he court decision were deeply flawed. He has not yet must give us his view of how justice is to be delivered. If addressed that deeply flawed data. Why has he gone he would put more money into legal aid, would he take ahead with a proposal that he knows will not work? To even more money out of the courts, or vice versa? Until make matters worse, why has he also decided that there he tells us how he would be prepared to spend the will be no additional capacity in Liverpool by scrapping money, I am afraid that he will not get people’s trust on the capital investment programme? The Deputy Prime this matter. He seems to suggest that closing courts is Minister refers to this as a progressive Government, but bad in every case. the past two days have proven that it is a wrecking-ball The hon. Gentleman asked for the financial workings, Government. and I am pleased to say that the impact assessments have been published and are there for him to look at. Mr Djanogly: It is not the case that we have not The utilisation figures take into account the additional reinvested. As I said in the statement, we are reinvesting work and remaining courts that will come into existence. in the remaining courts. The right hon. Gentleman The timetable is that the first courts will start to close asked about errors in the consultation data. There were on 1 April next year, and I can confirm that travel 16 area consultation documents. A small number of arrangements will be organised on a local basis. It is errors were found, but none were considered to be important to make the point that during these material to the consultation. In one area—north Wales— reorganisation proposals, we have been considering not even though we were advised that the errors did not just closures but how we can best reorganise the remaining affect the consultation, I personally decided that the Courts Service. That includes looking at how people consultation documents should be sent out again, and can best get to their local courts. that was done. However, we do not maintain that the Delivering justice is about more than protecting bricks figures were put out in error—quite the opposite. On and mortar. The hon. Gentleman talks about it being the whole, they were accurate. like Facebook. In reality, courts are not like post offices either—they are not places that people go to every day Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): On 16 November, of the week. Of equal importance is the quality of one Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Justice told me justice. It is important that people have use of a fit-for- in a parliamentary answer that it would be highly desirable purpose building that has good listing facilities and gets if more work that was currently done by Crown courts cases heard promptly. Proximity is important, but it is were carried out by magistrates courts. He agreed that only one of a number of issues to be considered, and we there was waste in the Crown courts. On the same day, have considered those issues carefully. the other Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Justice told me that following the closure of magistrates courts, the same amount and the same type of work would be Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): There is done by the other magistrates courts. Which is right? clearly a case for making savings where courts are close together or little used. However, why have Ministers taken relatively little account of the representations of Mr Djanogly: It is true that in terms of capacity, the Lord Chief Justice, particularly on the Courts Service Crown courts are almost bursting at the seams, which is in what he described as vast rural areas, such as Alnwick why my hon. Friend will see that not a single Crown and Tynedale in Northumberland and places elsewhere court is proposed for closure in the list. One of the great in the country? Will benches not find it necessary—at challenges that we face is to ensure that work that least sometimes—to go out to parts of their areas, should more appropriately be carried out in magistrates possibly even to hear cases in places where they are still courts does not go to the Crown court. Both the legal courthouses, given that they cannot be sold and are still aid Green Paper and the sentencing and restorative public property? justice Green Paper have provisions to encourage that. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I frankly do Mr Djanogly: My right hon. Friend is passionate not understand the Minister’s decision on Salford about the Courts Service, as I know not least from my magistrates court. Not only do we have the support of appearance before him and the Justice Committee. However, the Lord Chief Justice—who said that Salford city it is important to point out that the Lord Chief Justice’s council’s alternative proposal should be supported and response came from the foreword to a report of the the court should remain open—but the city council senior presiding judge, and that the report did not would have met the maintenance backlog and the ongoing represent a response on behalf of the entire judiciary. revenue costs for the court. There would have been no The senior presiding judge was collecting the remarks cost to the Department. I believe that this decision flies by various judges around the country. It needs to be in the face of all logic. We have had a court in our city seen in that context. Indeed, the report was given careful for 1,000 years, doing fantastic community justice work consideration, as were all the responses. of the kind that the Minister has talked about. We have had a court for 1,000 years: it has taken this Government Several hon. Members rose— just six months to put an end to that. 823 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 824

Mr Djanogly: The right hon. Lady came to see me costs as running costs. There were also omissions, such with members of her local authorities, and she spoke as ignoring the potential of transferring work from Ely strongly in support of her court—I recognise that—as to Wisbech to increase its utilisation rate, and underestimates did members of her visiting delegation. However, that of revenue, involving such elements as charging the court has a low utilisation rate, and a building and police nothing for the use of the court building. In facilities that are not adequate. The court is going to be the light of that, will the Minister place in the Library closed because of those factors, as well as its close the figures that were used after those errors were pointed proximity—about half a mile—to Manchester City out, so that we can see exactly what this decision was magistrates court, which can import the work. I am based on? afraid that it is that close—1,000 paces to one of the finest magistrates courts in England and Wales. Mr Djanogly: Yes, I am pleased to say that the impact assessments have been published today, and my hon. Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I wrote Friend will be able to have full sight of those figures. to the Minister at the time regarding the potential closure in Burton. People in South Derbyshire go there, Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): To say that this and it takes much more than an hour to get to Derby. announcement is disappointing is an understatement. There is no way on God’s earth that we can get to Justice will no longer be done in Rochdale, nor will it be Newcastle-under-Lyme, so would he be kind enough to seen to be done. If the Minister believes that victims, arrange a meeting to look at our plan B in South witnesses and the accused will travel mile upon mile for Derbyshire, for a new civic centre that can take over justice, he is sadly mistaken. Rochdale court has one of such work? the highest utilisation rates in Greater Manchester, and some of the best possible facilities, including video links Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend the Member for Burton and secure rooms for witnesses. It has a fantastic bench (Andrew Griffiths) secured an Adjournment debate in and great staff, and it is completely fit for purpose. This July, and I think he accepted the need to make savings, decision will not affect people like the Minister, but it but urged Ministers to consider the wider impacts. will affect people who live in Rochdale. Will he reconsider There is a high density of county courts in Staffordshire his decision? and west Mercia. Burton sat for 199 days in 2009-10, and there are no members of the judiciary based Mr Djanogly: No, I am afraid to say to the hon. permanently at the court. Although facilities are adequate, Gentleman that the decision has been taken. Rochdale closure would mean that Her Majesty’s Courts Service magistrates court is a busy court with a good utilisation would not be liable for an additional investment of rate, but it will close because of low utilisation across around £450,000. None the less, I would of course be the Greater Manchester area. It is important to point delighted to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the matter out to the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members further. who are making related points that during the consultation we did not look at the individual courts in isolation. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The Yes, we looked at each court on its own, but we also maintenance figures used by the Minister to justify looked at them in the context of other courts in that closures in Wales were wildly inaccurate. On the second local justice area. That has sometimes meant that courts attempt he got them wrong again, and on the third with high utilisation figures have still had to close attempt they were wrong yet again. He is using fairytale because, in an area context, they are not efficient. figures to support his arguments. The closure of Pwllheli magistrates court—which was vehemently opposed by Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I would like to tell the the Lord Chief Justice, the presiding judge and everybody Minister about my concerns for the people who live in who knows anything about that area of Wales—leaves rural Somerset. That includes my constituents and those my constituency with one court to serve a patch that of my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and measures 100 miles north-to-south and 100 miles across. Frome (Mr Heath). The Government intend to close Is that local justice? Bridgwater court and Frome court, which, as the Lord Chief Justice has recognised, will leave any number of Mr Djanogly: Having considered the matter, we believe people unable to reach a court inside one day’s travel by that local justice will be maintained in the hon. Gentleman’s public transport. Will the Minister consider introducing constituency. The fact of the matter is that Pwllheli a proper system for booking appointments, so that magistrates court has a very low utilisation rate—29% people can attend court at 3 or 4 o’clock in the afternoon? in 2009-100—offers limited facilities for victims and In that way, there might be some hope of their reaching witnesses, and is only partially disability-compliant. the court in which they are intended to appear. Secondly, The work undertaken at that court can be easily can he make certain— accommodated in the recently purpose-built Caernarfon criminal justice centre, which offers far superior facilities Mr Speaker: Order. I think we will make do with one for all court users. question. Just before the Minister replies, may I remind the House that I am trying to help Members, but that Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Members must be prepared to help each other? That There will be great dismay at the closure of Ely and means short questions and short answers. Wisbech magistrates courts in North East Cambridgeshire, particularly as the magistrates court in the constituency Mr Djanogly: Thank you, Mr Speaker. next door—the Minister’s own—is to be retained, as are The court was used for only 23% of the available time county court hearings. There were factual errors in the in 2009-10, and the standard of accommodation falls consultation on Wisbech court, such as taking one-off far short of what is now expected by court users. 825 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 826

However, consideration is to be given to those who live Mr Djanogly: That is my understanding, yes. in the north of the area, in terms of having their cases heard at a more convenient court in the Avon and Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Why is the Minister Somerset area. still looking for magistrates court space in Liverpool while closing down the purpose-built Southport magistrates Mr Eric Illsley (Barnsley Central) (Lab): The Minister court? Where is the sense or the saving in that? has already announced that Barnsley county court will be retained, but can he confirm that he has accepted the Mr Djanogly: Replacement of the inadequate facilities view of most of the statutory agencies that the county at the Liverpool magistrates courts at Dale street and court should be joined with the magistrates court? Is Victoria street is, and remains, a top-priority scheme for that merger going to take place? Her Majesty’s Courts Service.

Mr Djanogly: I do not have an answer to that question. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I I will look into the matter and come back to the hon. welcome the Minister’s statement. Will he confirm that Gentleman. millions of pounds are wasted each year by commuting prisoners to and from court, and that better use of Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): technology could deal with PCMHs—plea and case The Minister is to be commended for coming to the management hearings—first appearances and mentions House to make an oral statement on what was inevitably at the Crown court and the magistrates court? going to be a difficult announcement. Will he confirm that Harwich magistrates court was already earmarked Mr Djanogly: I am absolutely convinced by what my for closure by the Labour Government? Can he also hon. Friend has to say. Millions of pounds are currently give me an assurance that Harwich will stay open until wasted by witnesses, lawyers and defendants all moving the new court facilities in Colchester have been constructed around the country. Many problems could be solved and are up and running? through the use of technology.

Mr Djanogly: The answer is yes, in both cases. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I acknowledge and welcome the retention of the county court at Llangefni— Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The shadow Minister, and I congratulate the Minister on pronouncing it my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr correctly. The Minister said that part of the exercise was Slaughter), asked whether the Minister would share to save money. Will he acknowledge the important with the rest of us his calculations on travel times. I economic impact of courts and legal services on towns assume that he will also put his answer in the Library, across the United Kingdom, and was that taken into and I would like him to confirm that. There will be account during the review? considerable anger in the Cynon Valley about the decision to close the Aberdare courthouse, and I do not know Mr Djanogly: The purpose of the review was not to where the Minister’s calculations on travel times have look at the impact of the closure of courts on the wider come from. I invite him to join me on a bus through the economies within towns, but the work will go to the Cynon valley, to find out that from many of those areas remaining courts, which will have implications for putting it is impossible to reach Merthyr Tydfil within an hour. money back into the system in those other courts.

Mr Djanogly: Travel times were worked out by the Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I Courts Service. The difficulty is that times will vary declare an interest as a court duty solicitor. I welcome from one part of an hon. Member’s constituency to the reprieve of Waltham Forest magistrates court, which another, so it is the average times that have to be taken has particularly effective family and youth court provision. into account. I urge my hon. Friend to develop opportunities with local authorities to accommodate appropriate youth Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I thank the court hearings, so that we can deliver effective localised Minister for listening to my constituents in Skipton and justice. the Yorkshire dales. Will he pay tribute to the campaign run by the local newspaper, the Craven Herald, which Mr Djanogly: Effective localised justice is an important explained the devastating impact that the closure of the part of the Green Paper that my right hon. Friend the court in Skipton would have had in this most rural part Secretary of State published last week, so I can say yes of England? to that. As regards Waltham Forest, again, a delegation of Conservative and Labour Members came to see me Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend spoke forcefully in an and made a very persuasive case for that court. Adjournment debate and then met my officials and me. He made a persuasive case, and his local area made a Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) persuasive case, and when we thought it about carefully (PC): Ammanford court in my constituency was recently we decided he was right that the court should stay open. refurbished at a cost of £59,000 to make it one of the most modern courts in west Wales. Is it not a colossal John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I am relieved that the waste of public money to close that court now? robust campaign for Worksop magistrates court has eventually been listened to. To avoid ambiguity in the Mr Djanogly: We have had to take some tough decisions; future, will the Minister confirm that the previous functions of that there is no doubt. As I said before, we are of Worksop county court will be run from Worksop dealing with this on an area basis as much as on a magistrates court in the future? court-by-court basis. That is an important point, because 827 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 828 people have been able not only to assess how courts Mr Djanogly: I certainly will, but, again, the court impact on an area overall, but to see how their own has low utilisation, and Cardiff is just 9 miles away, with areas have been treated in comparison with other parts a good public transport infrastructure. of the country. That, to me, has made this a very fair consultation. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): The Minister says that his proposals will provide a Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My constituents will better and more efficient justice system. Will he accompany strongly welcome the decision to keep Harlow magistrates me to the east end of Sheppey, and explain to residents court. Ours is a growth town that provides value for there how justice will be improved now that they will be money. Will the county court’s functions be transferred forced to travel to Canterbury or Medway—a journey to the magistrates court or to Chelmsford? If they are that can take up to three hours on public transport, if transferred to Chelmsford, will consideration be given public transport is available, which it is not after 6 pm? to people who have difficulty in travelling? Will a satellite county court be provided? Mr Djanogly: Of course I will meet my hon. Friend if that is what he wants, but I have already met him and we Mr Djanogly: Yes, and it is hoped that the retention have discussed the issues. Again, the court was considered of the magistrates court will enable business to be in the context of the area, and we believe that we made conducted across both. the right decision.

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Goole Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): May I ask the magistrates court is provided by the local police authority Minister to reflect not just on north Wales, as he has at a peppercorn rent, and is connected with recently been asked to do, but on the huge tract of west Wales refurbished cells at the police station. Its closure will which will now be left without convenient access to a leave residents in the western part of the east riding a magistrates court, and, critically, without the public considerable distance from local justice. Will the work transport that would allow him to realise his dreams? at Goole be transferred to Hull, or will my constituents There simply is not adequate public transport to take be expected to get on a bus, travel past the magistrates people from Ceredigion up to Aberystwyth. Will the court in Hull, change buses and continue on a different Minister think again about the transport issues on bus to Beverley, as was suggested in the consultation? which he and his officials have reflected?

Mr Djanogly: The court at Goole is closing not least Mr Djanogly: We have considered transport very because of low utilisation, but when we looked at the carefully, and we concluded that one hour on public responses to the consultation, we realised that the travel transport was the right amount of time. Originally, a lot arrangements of people using public transport were of those courts were instigated on the basis of half a different from those of people using private transport, day’s horse ride, but we thought one hour on public and we think that it will be possible to use not only transport should be adequate. Beverley but Hull. That was one good outcome of the consultation. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): There will be widespread concern about the closure of Harrow Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): My hon. Friend magistrates court, not least because it is fully utilised has confirmed that the work of Totnes magistrates and we demonstrated in the consultation that it will cost court is to be relocated. I know he is aware that the money to close it rather than keeping it open. The building provides an useful facility for the coroner and alternative means transferring the work to areas that those who assist him in his work, such as Victim Support, are impossible to reach by public transport, even in and also that the citizens advice bureau has worked London. There will also be concern that the Minister extensively on a plan to share the court building. Can he refused to receive an all-party delegation from Harrow assure us that this important local asset will be put to its council and the bench, and I ask him to hear those best local use by those valuable organisations? people so they can put their arguments in person.

Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend has raised an important Mr Djanogly: I am afraid that the time for consultation point. I hope that the answer is yes, and if I can be of has now passed and the decision has been taken. The assistance she should get in touch with me to that end. problem with Harrow is that there is considerable capacity Courts will be empty, and there may be local authorities at neighbouring courts, and they offer much more modern or other local agencies that could make use of them. facilities. Now that we have a final list of the courts that will close, that process can begin. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): The Minister will be aware that documents on his website Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The Minister cite the travel time from Liskeard to Bodmin because it has announced the closure of Barry magistrates court. I is proposed to close Liskeard magistrates court, but he believe that that decision was simply wrong. More than does not seem to have taken into account the travel time £1 million was spent on the court last year, it has from the rural parts of my constituency such as St Cleer extremely high utilisation rates and it is the only court and Kelly Bray. Can he confirm that he has taken into in the county of Vale of Glamorgan. Will the Minister account that travelling time, and the availability of share with me the data on which he based the decision, public transport? and will he confirm his agreement to meet the chairman of the bench and me to discuss the matter? Mr Djanogly: Yes, we did take those into account. 829 Courts Service Estate14 DECEMBER 2010 Courts Service Estate 830

Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What Mr Djanogly: On review, yes. consideration was given to the fact that just two years ago the thick end of £1 million was spent on making David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I, too, am Selby magistrates court Disability Discrimination Act- deliriously happy today, and I thank the Minister for compliant? I fully understand that the Government listening to the arguments that I and the people of inherited a financial mess, but if Selby magistrates court Monmouthshire put forward to save Abergavenny court is now to be closed and sold off, the taxpayer will be from closure. Will he assure us that consultations by facing a huge loss. My constituents will be keen to see this Government will continue to be proper exercises, the impact assessment on which that decision was based. and not just the shams that we have seen in the past 13 years? Mr Djanogly: Investment has been made in various parts of the estate at various times, but the courtroom capacity at York magistrates court, coupled with the Mr Djanogly: I thank my hon. Friend for those flexible listing practices, will enable Selby’s work to be comments. Clearly, things were not all bad in Wales. We absorbed effectively into York. wanted to do a full consultation, as the previous Government had been closing courts in dribs and drabs—a Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): I am doubly court here and a court there. One of them was operating disappointed, because the Minister did not give me as a pizza shop, and another had had the roof burned prior notification of a court closure in my constituency. off for three years before we came in and closed it. This The closure of the court at Blandford means that residents Government are consulting fully and putting forward a of Dorset will have access to justice only on the coast. strategic plan across local areas where people can take Residents in the expanding towns of Shaftesbury and a strategic view on a national basis. Gillingham will not be able to get to Weymouth before 12 noon, and will have to leave by 2 o’clock in order to Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Residents in get back the same day. Will the Minister meet me and the borough of Kettering will be pleased that the Minister the lay magistracy to talk about this matter? has listened to the vigorous local campaign and decided to save Kettering magistrates court. What were the Mr Djanogly: As I have said to other hon. Members, main factors behind his very welcome decision? the consultation period has now finished, but I must point out that my hon. Friend’s local court was used for Mr Djanogly: The court will remain open because of only 29% of the available time. I am sorry to hear that concerns raised about the capacity of the receiving he had not received notice, and I will look into why that court at Northampton in light of the decision to close was the case. Daventry and Towcester magistrates courts. Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): The Minister will appreciate that I am extremely disappointed by the Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I, too, remind decision to close Woking magistrates court. As he saw the House of my former profession as a solicitor. I in my submission and that of the bench, it has very high warmly welcome the Minister’s statement, particularly utilisation rates, a purpose-built court, fantastic disabled the welcome news that Bury county court will remain access and excellent youth witness provision. How does open. Will he confirm that that is not a temporary this decision fit with the criteria for the consultation, reprieve but a permanent decision? Also, I am slightly because many outside independent people, including concerned that the decision to close Rochdale magistrates judges, looked at it and did not think that Woking fitted court will require a great deal of extra capacity at Bury those criteria? magistrates court, especially as Rochdale already takes in the Heywood and Middleton benches. Has he taken Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend made a very cogent that into account? case for the retention of his court, and put the local case very strongly. I have to say that the judgment was finely Mr Djanogly: Yes, we have: we will be doing about balanced, but ultimately this decision was taken because £170,000-worth of work to accommodate the work the utilisation rates in the Surrey courts has been below from Rochdale magistrates court. 80%, and transferring work to Staines and Guildford magistrates courts will result in the rate increasing to Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): The state of 89%. the public finances notwithstanding, many people in Tamworth will be bitterly disappointed by the loss of Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I disclose my former both our county court and our magistrates court, which profession as a barrister. Tynedale in Northumberland is the most utilised court in Staffordshire. What assurances has almost 1,000 square miles without a court. The can my hon. Friend give my constituents that the video-link consultation used poor-quality figures and they were technology between courts and police stations will be badly applied. If they are wrong, does the Minister rolled out quickly so that our police will not spend all accept that the claim is capable of judicial review? their time on the A38 to Burton, and that vulnerable Mr Djanogly: We do not believe that the figures we people who will have to spend a day-long round trip consulted on were wrong. going to Stafford county court will not have justice put beyond their means? Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am delighted that Stroud magistrates court will remain open. I regard it as Mr Djanogly: The court is closing because it has a an example of an efficient modern court, and I think it sitting day allocation of only 76 days, and the work will is consistent with the whole approach of the Ministry of transfer to Burton magistrates court. I can tell my hon. Justice. Does the Minister agree? Friend that we will be pushing ahead with the additional 831 Courts Service Estate 14 DECEMBER 2010 832 use of technology, which we see as the future. As things RAF Bases stand, the Courts Service does not make adequate use Application for emergency debate (Standing Order of modern technology. No. 24) Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): The Minister has 4.30 pm already heard the genuine concerns about the closure of Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Burton county court. He said today that nobody should I seek leave to discuss a specific and important matter have to travel for more than an hour to get justice, but that should have urgent consideration—the closure of under these proposals my constituents will have to go to RAF bases. either Derby or Stafford. On public transport that takes Members on both sides of the House will be concerned two hours and 23 minutes; on the train it takes an hour about recent briefings from the Royal Air Force and the and 40 minutes. Will he meet me to ensure that my Ministry of Defence on the proposed closure of bases constituents will get access to the court in Derby rather that have been reported in today’s press. As the House than the one in Stafford? will now know, the RAF has made a series of recommendations to the MOD about the proposed Mr Djanogly: We would be happy to discuss that with closure of bases. My concerns, and the reasons why I my hon. Friend. We propose that work will transfer to am proposing a debate under Standing Order No. 24, either Derby or Stafford depending on which is closer are twofold: first, the Government have not provided for the parties involved, so I think we are heading in the coherent criteria on which the decisions are to be made right direction. and, secondly, they have still failed to give a timetable for making and announcing the decisions. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I declare The Government have left the affected communities, my interest as a barrister—in fact, I have appeared in a service personnel and their families and Members of couple of these courts. The Minister mentioned how the House unclear and confused as to the basis on busy Northampton magistrates court is, and said that which they will make those important decisions. The that had been factored into some of his decisions. Some Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that the decision of the hearings in magistrates courts are very short, and would be motivated by socio-economic considerations, some magistrates courts are underutilised, so can my while the Secretary of State for Defence said yesterday hon. Friend confirm that because of the shortness and that it would be a strategic defence decision alone and frequency of such hearings, they are particularly susceptible the Prime Minister and his Chancellor have said that to the use of video link and other modern technology, the decision would be based on budgetary considerations. and that savings could thus be made across the board? With Christmas only a few days away, this is obviously causing a great deal of uncertainty for our service Mr Djanogly: They are indeed. I have visited the pilot personnel, some of whom are currently serving overseas, projects in south London, which work extremely well. and for their families. I do not believe that is fair or just. We have to review their cost implications and we want Furthermore, the next scheduled Defence questions are to extend the pilots to help witnesses. not until the end of January, which will mean a seven-week wait for clarity and for scrutiny of Ministers. Our serving personnel and their communities deserve to Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On a point of order, know on what basis—from the three put forward by Mr Speaker. individual members of the Government—the decisions will be made, and when. Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman As you know, Mr Speaker, I have huge respect for the for the advance notice, but points of order come after House and the role it can play in bringing clarity to the next business. issues that affect communities across the United Kingdom. If my application is successful, the debate will give right hon. and hon. Members the opportunity to present their cases. That will ensure that the debate is open and constructive, thereby affording the Government and the House a more rounded picture of community interests and feelings about an important issue before the House rises for Christmas. Our gallant armed forces, who are serving their country, deserve better than the shoddy treatment they have received today. Mr Speaker: I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said, and I have to give my decision without stating any reasons. I am afraid that I do not consider that the matter he has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 24 and I cannot, therefore, submit the application to the House. 833 14 DECEMBER 2010 Points of Order 834

Points of Order Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) have all raised extremely important points of order on the back of the speech in 4.33 pm support of the application for a Standing Order No. 24 Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On a point of order, Adjournment debate. Mr Speaker. Moray is the most defence-dependent First, I am conscious of press commentary, not least community in the UK, and the Government have already because of what right hon. and hon. Members have announced the closure of RAF Kinloss in the region, said, but I think it fair to point out that there is while the future of neighbouring RAF Lossiemouth sometimes a difference between press commentary and has been under review. It has now been widely reported speculation on the one hand, and a firm Government that the Royal Air Force has made a recommendation decision on the other. Secondly, I note the presence of for the retention of RAF Lossiemouth, which would two responsible Ministers in the Chamber, which I reflect the strong defence and financial arguments in its think is appreciated by the House. I noted that when the favour. Unfortunately, it appears that RAF Leuchars in point was made about statements needing to be made to Fife is now being considered for closure. Has the Ministry the House, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, of Defence given any indication that it will make a the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) statement on those recommendations, as we need an was nodding vigorously his assent to that proposition. end to uncertainty both in Moray and in Fife? The last point that I would make, specifically responding Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Further to the right hon. and learned Member for North East to that point of order, Mr Speaker. You have gone out Fife, is that he is right. If a decision has been made, it of your way to emphasise that when important Government should be reported timeously to the House so that the decisions are announced, they should be announced in responsible Minister is subject to scrutiny. I hope the the House and not in any other way. The issue of Royal House will understand if I say today that I am not in a Air Force bases in Scotland and elsewhere appears to position to issue a verdict, but the point has been made have been the subject of a number of leaks. I have no forcefully. I hope it will have been heard on the Treasury notion where these leaks come from, but there is no Bench and that all proper procedures will be followed in doubt that they add to speculation and to the kind of this matter. I hope they will be, and I am quite sure, in uncertainty that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and light of the experience and perspicacity of the Members West Fife (Thomas Docherty) mentioned in his application who raised their concerns, that if there were anything for a debate under Standing Order No. 24. I hope you amiss or awry, those Members and others would bring might take the opportunity today, Mr Speaker, to reinforce it to my attention and that of the House before very your belief that when important announcements are to long. be made, they should be made to this House and not elsewhere. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): On a Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Further point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder if you can assist to that point of order, Mr Speaker. me. The court closure announcement that we heard just now was, in the case of Welsh courts, predicated on Mr Speaker: We will have a last go from Mr Fitzpatrick back maintenance figures which proved to be 100% on a point of order, then I will respond to them all. inflated. Even on the second attempt to correct them, Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful, Mr Speaker. Much of they were completely inaccurate. Were the announcement air-sea rescue is delivered by the Royal Navy and the made outside the Chamber, I would say that it was Royal Air Force, but some is delivered by the Maritime justiciable. What can I do about this? I feel badly let and Coastguard Agency.It is suggested that the coastguard down by the process. service’s stations and the bases run by the MCA will be cut. That is a major statement which the Government Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is seeking to continue ought to make to the House, rather than have it leaked the debate. I understand his frustration. My advice to by the MOD, the Financial Times, a civil servant or him is that he should look for an opportunity to air his whoever. I strongly support my hon. Friend the Member concerns in the Chamber. As he is aware, there is an for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and innovative version of the Christmas Adjournment debate right hon. and hon. Members who ask that the Government taking place under the auspices of the Backbench Business explain to the House the future of the air-sea rescue Committee next week. He might want to view that as an service. opportunity. There are opportunities in Westminster Hall. There will be further opportunities at Question Mr Speaker: The hon. Members for Moray (Angus Time. In the meantime, the hon. Gentleman has reminded Robertson) and for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) his constituents of the importance that he attaches to and the right hon. and learned Member for North East the matter. 835 14 DECEMBER 2010 Banking and Financial Services 836 (Community Investment) Banking and Financial Services bail-out that the public provided, I believe it only fair (Community Investment) that financial service providers consider investing some of their profits in our communities. By creating a mechanism Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order through which they can do so, the Bill would ensure No. 23) that community enterprises have the funding that they need to thrive and prosper and to serve local people. 4.39 pm Many of our banks, building societies and financial service providers are already active in our communities. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I beg to Last year, the Barclays community finance fund was move, launched, giving grants to organisations that provide That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for a affordable credit to people in deprived areas. The scheme voluntary mechanism through which banks, building societies has been so successful that it is being extended, and over and other providers of financial services can support community the next three years it will allow local authorities, other projects through reinvestment of part of their profits and assistance organisations and Members to nominate local community in kind; and for connected purposes. finance organisations, such as credit unions, to receive This Bill is intended to address the challenges facing money from the fund. Furthermore, Barclays staff now communities and voluntary organisations throughout voluntarily participate in various community schemes, Britain, and I hope to show the House that the funding making it a real partnership between the corporate shortfall facing such groups is of such significance that sector and local community enterprises. without urgent action we run the risk of losing them. The Bill then proposes a solution that I hope the Last year, the Co-operative Foundation, with which Government will consider to be an equitable and practical many Opposition Members will certainly be familiar, means of remedying the situation. invested £11.3 million in our communities, and more than 50,000 people responded to a survey to ensure that A recent New Philanthropy Capital report found that that funding was directed to the areas and projects that the Government’s deficit reduction plan will lead third really needed it. Part of the success of the Co-op and sector income to drop by between £3.2 billion and Barclays schemes is that they use resources in places £5.1 billion, and that that gap is far too large to be filled where they can make a real difference, leveraging other by philanthropy and charitable giving alone. Only last investment and making sure that our communities are week, Mr Thomas Hughes-Hallett, the chief executive sustainable for the long term. of Marie Curie Cancer Care, warned of signs that charitable giving might fall sharply, and dramatic figures, The problem is more than just purely financial, however. such as Croydon council’s 66% reduction in grants for The fundraising expectations survey of more than 900 voluntary organisations, are causing all such groups to voluntary groups showed that 70% are having difficulty fear for their future. recruiting staff and getting people into their organisations to do the work. That impacts most heavily on groups in This means that organisations such as Wooden Hill the north. Understandably, many financial institutions in Bedford, a social enterprise that trains adults to work focus their community work in the areas where they are with and mentor young people, and Accept Care, which based, and that is often in the south-east. By creating a operates in Northern Ireland and works with disabled fund that is accessible to all voluntary groups throughout people to give them skills to be active in their communities, the country, we can address that issue and ensure that face possible closure. It is those organisations that this funding for voluntary groups is not governed by their Bill is intended to help. proximity to a financial centre. The Bill would also Everyone agrees that we cannot have a big society provide for non-financial contributions, for example, without money, and the Bill seeks to demonstrate that, mentoring, help with personal development and practical if we really are all in this together, that has to include measures, such as room hire. It would therefore create a the financial sector as well. During the global financial framework to allow for an ongoing relationship between crisis, when the financial sector was in trouble, banks business and communities, instead of merely creating turned to the public to provide the vital funds needed to an extension of philanthropic giving. help stabilise the financial sector. Now, community The Bank of New York Mellon has been operating in projects need help, and the Bill would give banks and my community of Salford for two or three years. It has financial institutions the opportunity to put something 300 volunteers in the community who work with Salford back and to provide communities with the funding and young people. They give them experience, provide role stability that they need. models, go out to our schools and read in our schools. A recent report by the Institute for Public Policy The bank has a fantastic relationship with the community Research into the financial sector estimates that next and it is able to do that—and is encouraged to do year, in 2011, profits and bonuses in the UK financial that—because, in America, there is a system of tax sector could be as high as £90 billion. Even during credits for companies that take part in voluntary and 2007-08, only months before the bail-out, the financial community activity. sector reported gross trading profits of £58.2 billion. It is important to stress that the Bill would create a The IPPR report projects bonuses to increase to almost voluntary mechanism. It would not create duties or £15 billion by 2011-12, and it shows that the average obligations but would provide incentives and opportunities bonus in the financial sector is more than eight times for the providers of financial services to build a constructive larger than the average bonus in the rest of the economy. partnership with their communities. There would be I do not use those statistics to bash the banks, because real benefits for the banks and financial institutions if it is in all our interests to have a strong, vibrant financial they chose to take part. Through co-operation with sector in the United Kingdom; I use them to demonstrate their communities, the Bill would allow them to market the enormous figures involved. Given the size of the themselves as being fully embedded with local people, 837 Banking and Financial Services 14 DECEMBER 2010 838 (Community Investment) and they could use that as a way of demonstrating their Superannuation Bill real commitment to corporate social responsibility. The Consideration of Lords amendments Bill would not penalise those companies who chose not to take part, but it would certainly reward those who did. If banks get involved in such work, their reputation After Clause 1 will rise—and goodness me, the banks’ reputation certainly needs to be repaired in the light of recent events. CONSULTATION IN RELATION TO CIVIL SERVICE The aims of the Bill are to ensure a sustainable source COMPENSATION SCHEME MODIFICATIONS of funding for community projects; to establish a strong framework to support them; and to increase fairness by giving every community the opportunity to access the 4.49 pm fund. That would benefit every area that we serve in the The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster House. I am delighted that the Bill has received cross-party General (Mr Francis Maude): I beg to move, That this support, and I know that many members of the public House agrees with Lords amendment 1. will agree that developing the relationship between finance and communities can only be a good thing. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this Hon. Members may have seen that senior bankers we may take Lords amendments 2, 3 and 7. and customers of the Royal Bank of Scotland have recently enjoyed a £250-a-head Harry Potter Christmas Mr Maude: When I opened the debate on Second party. They have enjoyed shopping in Diagon Alley and Reading in September, I set out—at some length, I they have played Quidditch on broomsticks. That must regret to say—the history and background of compensation be the financial wizardry we so often hear about. I hope in the civil service since 1859. I do not propose to do the that the House will join me in urging our banks and same this afternoon. However, it is timely to bring bankers to consider supporting our community projects; the story up to date as regards what has happened since otherwise, we might have to get the Ministry of Magic the Bill left this House on 13 October to go to the other involved and, unlike the British public, it might be place. willing to let some of our banks simply disappear. I reiterate that from the day I first announced that the Question put and agreed to. Government intended to reform the civil service Ordered, compensation scheme on 6 July, extensive discussions have taken place between my officials—and myself on a That Hazel Blears, Jon Cruddas, Dr Stella Creasy, number of occasions—and the civil service trade unions. Chris White, Tim Farron, Mr David Blunkett, Harriett Proposals were put to the Council of Civil Service Baldwin, Siobhain McDonagh, Ms Gisela Stuart, Mr Bob Unions on 24 September. In the event, the council did Ainsworth, Paul Goggins and Simon Danczuk present not accept those proposals, but five of the unions—Prospect, the Bill. the First Division Association, the Prison Officers Hazel Blears accordingly presented the Bill. Association, the GMB and Unite—approached the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Government directly and asked to continue discussions Friday 18 March 2011, and to be printed (Bill 127). on those terms. There followed an intensive period of meetings between the five unions and officials, which on 5 October resulted in an agreement being reached between SUPERANNUATION BILL (PROGRAMME) the negotiators on terms that might form the basis of a (NO. 2) new compensation scheme. Later that day, the five Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing unions wrote to confirm that they had accurately recorded Order No. 83A(7)), an agreement that all their negotiating teams were able That the following provisions shall apply to the Superannuation to recommend positively to their executives as being the Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 7th September best that might be achieved in negotiation. 2010 (Superannuation Bill (Programme)): Soon after 5 October, agreement was reached between Consideration of Lords Amendments the Government and the trade union negotiating teams. 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall The POA’s executive committee voted to distance itself (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion from that agreement and to request further discussion. two hours after their commencement at today’s sitting. The sixth union, the Public and Commercial Services Subsequent stages Union, withdrew from the talks at the point when the 2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered five other unions had agreed to negotiate separately forthwith without any Question being put. with the Government. While the Bill was in the other 3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords place, the Government agreed a number of changes to shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion it, and this House now has the opportunity to consider one hour after their commencement.—(Mr Dunne.) those. The group of amendments that we are dealing Question agreed to. with responds to a commitment that I made when we discussed this on Report—that is, to reinforce the requirement for meaningful consultation on any changes to civil service consultation schemes. The new clause includes a clear requirement that future consultation on any changes that would reduce the value of the civil service compensation scheme must be undertaken “with a view to reaching agreement”, 839 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 840 and it requires a report to be made to Parliament setting The amendments reflect the lengthy consultation process out the details of the consultation that had been carried that I have just described. They are Government out with the unions. My noble Friend Lord Wallace of amendments that were made in the other place to Saltaire accepted an Opposition amendment in the respond to commitments that I made on Report and other place to delete wording that would have limited Third Reading. I am grateful for the constructive the content of that report to such information as the involvement of the unions and those on the Opposition Minister considered appropriate. Lord Wallace also Front Bench throughout the process of refining the agreed that we would table written ministerial statements amendments to achieve the maximum consensus. in both Houses when the imminent new scheme is laid Lords amendment 1, which is the lead amendment, before Parliament to draw attention to it and to the inserts a new clause after clause 1. As I said, it makes it steps that have been taken to consult the unions. clear that consultation should be undertaken Furthermore, we agreed to limit to three years—this is the subject of the next group of amendments—the “with a view to reaching agreement”, power to revive the caps in the Bill by order, and to drop and it requires that a report of that consultation be laid our proposals that would have allowed that time limit to before Parliament. The new provisions will apply when have been extended by a further six months at a time. there is a change to the compensation scheme that will During the Bill’s passage through the other place, the result in reduced benefits. The report would have to Government remained committed to trying to reach an include details of agreement with the Council of Civil Service Unions. I “the consultation that took place”, made a number of personal approaches, both orally and in writing, to the PCS general secretary and to the the steps that were taken POA inviting the CCSU to put forward alternative “with a view to reaching agreement” proposals for a reformed civil service compensation with the unions or other persons consulted, and scheme and seeking to engage further. I reiterated the Government’s continuing aim of reaching an agreement “whether such agreement has been reached.” with all the unions. I have offered every opportunity to I repeat that the Government are committed to consultation those unions that wish to engage constructively in with the unions. Like the previous Administration, we negotiations. As I said, five of them did so, and their will always seek to reach agreement with all unions on proposals formed the basis of the agreement on which changes to the compensation scheme. We know from the new proposed scheme is based. If the Bill goes experience that that may not always be possible, and in through its processes and achieves Royal Assent, I such cases, the report will explain why. would intend to lay that scheme before Parliament The effect of Lords amendments 2 and 3 is that the before Christmas. consultation provisions will come into force two months On 9 November, the Council of Civil Service Unions after Royal Assent. That is the standard interval before wrote to me with suggestions for areas that could be the commencement of new legislation. However, because considered in further talks, and I responded on of the need for certainty, the other provisions of the Bill 15 November. I have to say that the suggestions made in will come into force immediately on Royal Assent. As a the council’s letter would have had the effect of reducing consequence, the requirement to publish and lay before the level of compensation paid to many lower-paid civil Parliament a report on the consultation will apply to servants, and so it could not form the basis of further future changes to the compensation scheme, and not discussions. Having a new scheme that provides genuinely to those currently being developed for implementation better protection for the lowest-paid civil service workers, when the Bill is enacted. many of whom are members of the PCS, has been crucial in all the discussions we have had. As I have A requirement for a report on the current consultation made clear throughout the process, including when I would be nugatory, because no one can claim that there made the announcement of our intention to reform and has been anything other than long and extensive on Second Reading, that is crucial to the aims of the consultation, carried out not just by myself and my coalition Government. officials, but by my predecessor in this process, the right I explained to the Council of Civil Service Unions hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Tessa that, in the absence of detailed proposals from the PCS, Jowell), and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, work would have to proceed on drafting the rules for a Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who is now on the Opposition new scheme. Last week, my officials sent the draft rules Front Bench. This process goes back a long time; there for the new compensation scheme to the Council of have been three years of drawn out extensive consultation Civil Service Unions to seek its views. Those rules will and negotiation. Parliament is well aware, and nobody form the basis of the new compensation scheme, which can have any doubt, that the process has been extensive as I said I intend to lay before Parliament as soon as and thorough; it has been described by the right hon. possible, assuming that the Bill completes its passage Gentleman, the right hon. Lady and myself. Equally, it and achieves Royal Assent. would be wrong to risk a further delay, while a report was prepared and laid before Parliament, before the The Lords amendments are intended to reassure the proposed scheme could be introduced. I have agreed, as House, the unions and all stakeholders that the Government Lord Wallace said in the other place, to table written will consult fully with the unions should there be future ministerial statements to set out what consultation there proposals to change the compensation scheme that has been. would reduce the benefits for civil servants. They merely put into statute what has always been our intention. I hope the House will recognise that the Government Arguably, that requirement is already contained in the are seeking to provide the additional reassurance that Superannuation Act 1972, but the amendments will put was sought by the Opposition, and that the changes to it beyond peradventure or doubt. the Bill meet my earlier commitments. 841 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 842

Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): for society and all our public servants. Obviously the May I start by expressing my gratitude to the Minister terms of the civil service compensation scheme do not for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General for the affect those in the NHS or local authorities, who have way in which he has brought the House up to date on varied schemes that are often much worse than even the his discussions and negotiations, for the tone and tenor proposed new terms of the civil service scheme. of his remarks this afternoon, and for restraining himself This is an important matter, and I am pleased to from repeating the history of civil service compensation support the Lords amendments. They make it very clear since 1859? The whole House is in his debt for that. that we will be bound by good practice and enter into As we have said throughout all the stages of the Bill, proper and meaningful consultations, with a view to we agree that civil service compensation is in need of coming to an agreement. Although one particular trade reform. Indeed, we set it on its way. We now need to union may continue to try to veto the scheme, that does take account of the result of the judicial review, which not mean that we should ignore the need to try to tells us that what is needed is reform, but the right obtain an agreement using a reasonable approach. I am reform made in the right way. As we set about that very pleased with the Government’s strategy of protecting exercise, and what I hope is the finalisation of our people on lower incomes. That is an excellent thing to debates on the Bill this afternoon, it is incumbent on us do, so I am pleased to support the Lords amendments. to remember that for 500,000 civil servants—people who have given their lives to working in the public John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Lords service—the Bill should not be a “blunt instrument” for amendment 1 requires the Government to consult with negotiating purposes. For many people, it is about how the aim of seeking agreement, and provides for a report they might keep their home, help their children through to Parliament in due course. Lords amendments 2 and 3 university or avert financial hardship while they have to will bring the Bill into force two months after Royal look for a new job. The House must remember that the Assent and I find it extraordinary that the Government Bill’s provisions are important and will have real-world see that as some form of concession, because the bulk impacts. of the staff who will be made redundant in the coming period will be made redundant under a scheme that is still to be imposed. The Government intend that that 5pm scheme will be introduced within the two months after On Report, my right hon. Friend the Member for Royal Assent, so there will be no report to Parliament, Dulwich and West Norwood (Tessa Jowell) made it very no commitment to consultation and no commitment to clear that there were several areas in which we thought take steps to reach agreement, as is embedded in Lords the Bill was not quite perfect and needed modification. amendment 1. The terms of the scheme, as they stand in The first cause of worry was what was then new clause the original proposals in the Bill, will be imposed. So 1. Throughout the process we have recognised the need although Lords amendment 1 proposes a system whereby for reform of the Superannuation Act 1972, and the there is at least some commitment to parliamentary High Court judgment made it very clear that there was scrutiny of the willingness and commitment of the a case for ensuring that the Government could compel a Government to negotiate and seek an agreed settlement, settlement and that no one union could veto changes to Lords amendments 2 and 3 take away that commitment, the civil service compensation scheme. However, the because we know that the scheme will be amended Government’s ability to compel a settlement must be an within the two months to which Lords amendment 1 activity of last resort once it is clear that common does not apply. agreement cannot be reached. That was why we were I cannot think of a better mechanism to incite industrial not able to support new clause 1 on Report. It would action. It could be construed as an act of contorted bad have allowed the Government simply to impose changes faith. Although there have been commitments in ministerial to the scheme at any point, without consulting either written statements, there has been no commitment to the work force or representative trade unions. adhere to Lords amendment 1, because it would not We are very pleased that the Minister has made otherwise be virtually vetoed by Lords amendments 2 substantial progress as the Bill has proceeded through and 3. In my view, that will not only result in industrial both Houses. As he eloquently summarised it, the latest relations deteriorating but enhance the potential for draft of the new clause, which stands before us as Lords legal challenges. It certainly will not enhance the legal amendment 1, requires a report to Parliament on the protections for which the Government were hoping as a consultation that has been carried out with trade unions result of the amendments. if there are any further reductions in future. I was The amendments do not address the problematic particularly grateful to hear him confirm that future core of the Bill, which is the imposition of caps and consultation on changes would have to be undertaken limits on the compensation scheme without the agreement with a view to reaching agreement. That is substantial of the unions representing the members affected. I have progress and we are pleased that the Government have heard a lot about the four out of the six unions agreeing accepted our arguments on some helpful changes. No or recommending the scheme that is being imposed. I doubt we could quibble about the details, but the thrust remind the House, however, that of the two main unions of the Government’s changes is in the right direction. that represent the vast bulk—more than 75%—of the We will therefore support Lords amendments 1, 2 and 3 members affected, one, PCS, or the Public and Commercial and the consequential Lords amendment 7. Services Union, has not agreed the scheme and is recommending that its members reject it in the ballot, John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): It is and the executive of the other, the POA, has recommended rather sad that, again, there are relatively few people in that its members reject the scheme in the ballot, too. the Gallery when we are debating such an important I find it an absolute irony that in any future negotiations, issue. We need to value the work of people who work which will, I suppose, probably be relatively minor 843 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 844 because the Government will impose the bulk of the concluded and that he would implement the proposals change in the next couple of months, the House will that he set out on 4 October. I do not consider that an have some form of scrutiny of the negotiations as a appropriate way to seek agreement. result of Lords amendment 1, but that it will not be able As a result, PCS wrote to the Minister on 26 October to exercise it in those two months. The reason for that is to say that it was willing to submit proposals. He that if there was a full exposure of what went on in the welcomed that offer and confirmed he would reopen negotiations, it would provoke even more anger among talks if proposals came from the Council of Civil Service PCS and POA members. Unions, which is exactly what the PCS did—it submitted This has been the worst example of industrial relations the parameters and proposals via the CCSU in a practice that we have seen in years. First, there was the constructive approach to reach agreement. The Cabinet use of a “blunt instrument”—I use the Government’s Office made no attempt to go into any detail on those own words—of the threat of a Bill’s being brought proposals or to cost them, and on 9 November, the forward to impose such severe caps that many would CCSU submitted terms to open the detail of talks with have lost more than two thirds of the redundancy the Minister, who must have been aware of the background payments that they had acquired as accrued rights over to that letter and of the detail of the PCS proposals. the years. There was then an extremely crude attempt to However, on 15 November, he said that the window for divide and rule the unions. I believe that the POA is talks was closed. Although PCS sent a further letter on seeking some form of legal redress against the Minister 16 November, it was informed that there would be no for the Cabinet Office for some of his statements. Those future talks. practices have now resulted in the virtual chaotic breakdown That is a different historical account of those negotiations. of the formal negotiating structures that have held good The unions, which represented the vast majority of under past Governments throughout the decades. their members, were open to continuing talks to reach If Lords amendment 1 comes into force, at least there an agreed settlement. If amendment 1 had been in place will be some reflection of the negotiations that took before those talks, the House might have had a more place—and it might be more accurate. As the Minister objective historical account of the negotiations than the has dwelt on the process of the negotiations, perhaps I Minister or I have given—at least we would have had might put on the record an alternative historical account the opportunity of receiving a full report. However, the of what occurred. Yes, the civil service unions—all six Minister’s amendments have denied us the opportunity of them—sought to negotiate some form of agreed of a report on those negotiations and allow a report settlement throughout the summer. They did that in the only of future negotiations. That is extremely disappointing. light of the threat of the imposition of a Bill that would It is another act that will undermine civil servants’ cut significantly their members’ redundancy payments. confidence that they are being treated fairly by the In September, the Treasury intervened to insist on a Government at this critical time in their lives—we are cash cap on the new scheme, so there was no room to told that 360,000 of them will lose their jobs because of manoeuvre to improve the scheme beyond that cap. I the comprehensive spending review and subsequently. believe that that significantly undermined the potential In addition to souring the industrial relations climate, for a settlement. On 28 September, the Minister declared the Government have opened up a vista of legal that he was pursuing agreement with five of the unions, challenges—under article 11 of the European convention excluding the PCS, and on 4 October a formal offer was on human rights and article 1, protocol 1—which has submitted. On 11 October, PCS and the POA held a occurred before. Amendment 1 is the Government’s constructive meeting with the Minister, focusing on the attempt to find legal cover for their infringement of cap on redundancy proposals and making proposals to those articles, particularly article 11, but it does not go redistribute from high earners to the vast majority of far enough. In fact, amendments 2 and 3 take away that civil servants, enhancing the protection for the majority. cover completely in respect of the current negotiations. The Government’s proposals are legally precarious to Mr Maude: The hon. Gentleman refers to a report of say the least. I am sure that there will be a legal that meeting, but I can give him another account, challenge from PCS. I believe that it will be successful. because I was there—it was my meeting. No concrete In the previous Government’s negotiations, PCS proposals were made at that stage, and certainly not threatened legal challenge, and it was advised by civil proposals that could in any way remotely or realistically servants—they met us a week before the general election redistribute benefits away from higher earners, whose was declared—that the Government were confident of payments are anyway capped under the scheme that we winning in court. The same civil servants advise this have agreed, towards the lower paid and particularly the Government of the same thing. They were wrong before lowest paid, who are much better protected now than the election, and I believe that they are wrong now. In they were under the previous Labour Government’s fact, PCS is yet to lose a case against the Government. scheme of last February. We have the prospect of tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of civil servants being made redundant. If John McDonnell: My understanding is that on the Government’s proposals are overturned, the civil 11 October, PCS and POA tried to explore with the servants who are made redundant under the imposed Minister opportunities to make the scheme fairer and scheme could seek legal redress and compensation, more just for their members, and to set out certain which could run into many millions of pounds. parameters in which negotiations could take place. The PCS executive was scheduled to meet on 26 October to 5.15 pm consider the next steps in its negotiations with the The challenge will be on two grounds. The first will Government, but on 25 October it received a letter from be article 11, which is meant to protect the right of the Minister, who told them that negotiations had been trade unions to negotiate on behalf of their members. 845 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 846

Until 2008, the Europe Court of Human Rights treated views of their members about this Government’s threat the right to collective bargaining and the right to strike to their redundancy payments. It is for that reason that merely as examples of individual aspects of freedom of the POA and PCS are willing to get back round the association that states could choose as means of complying table and seek a reasonable agreement with the Government. with article 11, ensuring that unions could at least be However, I believe that, failing that, there will be legal heard. However, Demir and Baykara v. Turkey changed actions and industrial action. They will undermine the the atmosphere and legal standing of article 11 and that credibility of this Government in any future negotiations of the right to collective bargaining. The grand chamber or when they want to make changes not just to the resiled specifically from the original rulings and elevated scheme in question, but to other conditions of service the right to collective bargaining to the status of an across the civil service. Surely it is better to bring along essential element of article 11. Interference with this a willing work force—a committed work force, with right has to be justified against the background of the high morale and people who are willing to implement historical circumstances of the country. However, in the Government’s policy with enthusiasm because they this country, there is a long history of the right of civil enjoy their jobs, rather than people living under the servants in negotiations and of collective bargaining by threat of being made redundant without adequate the civil service, which I believe enforces the article 11 compensation. I urge the Government, even at this late rights of this particular union. On the basis, I believe state, to back off—to pull the Bill this evening, enter that the amendments do not go anywhere near far negotiations, get back round the table and seek an enough to protect the Government from legal challenge. agreed settlement that brings in all the unions, rather The second basis for a legal challenge against the than trying to divide them in the way that the Government amendments, which fail to provide the Government have. with cover, is that dealt with by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The amendments fail to address the Mr Maude: I am grateful to the right hon. Member need for agreement by the unions over their protected for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who spoke and accrued rights under the compensation scheme. from the Opposition Front Bench, and to my hon. Article 1 of the first protocol of the European convention Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John on human rights insists on the right to peaceful enjoyment Hemming) for their support for the amendments and of possessions. Under the scrutiny of the Joint Committee, for where the Government have got to. I would like to the Bill has been found to be lacking in providing that say one or two words in response to the points that have protection. First the Government argued that they were been raised. not possessions, but that was quashed by the law courts The first point to make is that the coalition Government in their last judgment against the previous Government. are deeply committed to supporting the civil service and The Joint Committee found the Government’s arguments supporting its independence. We profoundly believe in over possession to be unacceptable. They are accepted the ethos of public service and political impartiality then as accrued rights, which means that they can be that motivates the civil service and with which it is interfered with only as a result of agreement—amendment imbued. We wish to support that, and, just as with the 3 insists not on agreement but simply consultation—or previous Government’s attempt to reform the compensation if the interference is justified. However, the Joint Committee scheme, nothing in what we are attempting to do should determined that the Government had brought forward be interpreted as anything other than a desire to treat no justification—and, in fact, had not even addressed people fairly and achieve the right balance between the seriously the justification for interference with these interests of the taxpayer and the interests of hard-working, accrued rights, which the civil service has garnered over dedicated civil servants who, as the hon. Member for years of negotiation and service. For that reason, the Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said, have in amendments will fail to protect the Government against many cases spent their lives in public service. We honour further legal challenge. and respect that, and we want them to be treated fairly. I want to put that firmly on the record. I urge the Government, therefore, to think again. On We were happy to accept the point that consultation the legalities of the Bill, even as amended by the Lords must be serious, which is why we accepted an amendment amendments, we are entering legal quicksand, and the that said that consultation has to take place with a view Government will regret that. I think they recognise that to reaching agreement. It is not enough for the Government and have inserted the changes into the legislation rather to go through the motions. I do not think that anyone than the original scheme because they were worried who has taken part in the consultations and negotiations about the scheme being quashed very quickly in the UK that have brought us to this point would say that they courts of law. Even with the amendments, however, the were about going through the motions—I think the Government are entering an industrial relations minefield right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill would and a political morass. So I urge the Government, even bear that out. Rather, they were about serious work at this late stage, to step back. PCS, the POA and the aimed at getting agreement, and it is a matter of great other unions are still willing to meet and negotiate, to regret that such agreement has not been reached. The see whether a reasonable settlement can be obtained. I suggestion that the ability for collective bargaining has urge the Government to take up the offer of getting in some sense been reduced and that this is a breach of back around the table. the European convention on human rights simply does The unions are willing to negotiate because these not stack up. The changes that we are making actually measures will have such a significant impact on their strengthen the commitment to consultation, making it members. In Committee, we heard example after example more necessary that, in making any future changes, the of the impact on individual lives of such a severe Government should consult seriously, with a view to deterioration in the redundancy payments being offered reaching an agreement. The commitment on collective to civil servants. The POA and PCS are reflecting the bargaining is enhanced, not diminished. 847 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 848

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I have listened Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and to the debate with great interest, particularly on the Lesmahagow) (Lab): Two pieces of information have consultation with the POA, PCS and the other unions, come out on this. First, we received a Cabinet Office but what is the position, both in the current negotiations circular from the right hon. Gentleman which sets out and in any future consultations relating to the provisions in detail how the negotiations went. It specifically makes that we are debating, on those who are not in unions? the point that PCS made a proposal that would have We found from our experience of negotiating with civil reduced the amount of money being made available to servants in Northern Ireland that many were not in lower paid staff in order to pay for enhanced benefits unions, which raised a whole lot of other issues. How for those at the higher end of the scale. However, the does that play into the consultation provisions that the trade unions have said that that is not the case. In order right hon. Gentleman is introducing and the current to give us more information about the negotiation negotiations? process, can the Minister provide the figures to demonstrate how much would have needed to go to those at the top Mr Maude: The right hon. Gentleman raises a good to cover those enhancements, and how much would point, which is that it is by no means true that all civil have been taken away from those at the bottom? servants belong to a trade union. The figures show that something in the region of 60% of civil servants belong to a trade union, but many are unrepresented. I am not Mr Maude: It is really hard to do that, because, as I sure that the Superannuation Act 1972 or what we are pointed out in the letter that I sent to all Members, proposing in the Bill makes requisite any particular there were only outline suggestions made by PCS. Back form of consultation with those who are unrepresented. in September, five of the unions—the five not including However, he raises a good point that those who engage PCS—wrote to me with some proposals that they had in future consultations should be alive to. signed up to, and that PCS had declined to sign up to. At their request, we entered into discussions with the The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington referred five unions, and the ensuing proposals formed the basis to his concern that, because the consultation requirement of the new scheme that we have developed. They are not will not be commenced for two months, there will totally reflected in the scheme, but they formed the somehow be no obligation to consult. There has been basis for it. I constantly and consistently urged PCS to extensive consultation. He raised concerns about the join that process and to make concrete proposals, but it proposals that he claims were made by PCS and the had declined to sign the letter that the other five unions POA, but the outline suggestions that eventually emerged had signed, despite being asked to do so by the five from PCS, if implemented within the cost envelope, unions. which I have always said exists and which would have existed under whichever Government were in power, That protracted process involved meetings with Mark would have had the effect of reducing the compensation Serwotka of PCS and Steve Gillan of the POA, at available to those over pensionable age—that is, those which I urged them to make concrete proposals that over 50 and approaching retirement—and reducing the would enable us to work towards a full agreement. All benefits available to the lowest paid. I say again that our that emerged, however, after protracted delays, were primary concern has been to ensure that there is proper outline suggestions. When asked how any additional additional protection for those who are lower paid. protection for higher-paid people—not highly paid people, but those above the £23,000 underpin—was to be paid John McDonnell: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman for, the only suggestions were either to lower the underpin, would not want inadvertently to mislead the House. which would have meant that all lower-paid workers Just for the record, that is contested by the unions would have been penalised, or to reduce the protection themselves, because it was open to the discussions that available to those over 50. We were not willing to do the union was hoping to pursue with him, but which he that because providing protection was a priority for us. declined. Mr Maude: The concern raised by the unions at the John McDonnell: Following on from an earlier point, time was that there was insufficient compensation in the the Minister will know better than most of us that these scheme that we were developing with the other unions negotiations are complex. He has said that it was difficult for those who were above the £23,000 salary underpin. at times to calculate the overall consequences. That is We could have increased the compensation payments why the Public and Commercial Services Union—through for them only by taking away from others. The only the Council of Civil Service Unions as the Minister ways in which that could have been achieved—these requested—put forward outline proposals for detailed suggestions were canvassed—would have been by lowering negotiations with staff. However, the Minister for the the £23,000 underpin so that all those earning less than Cabinet Office then closed the window for those that would have been penalised, or by taking away the negotiations, just as they were becoming productive. significant protection that rightly continues to exist for There are complexities and if the Minister objected to those over 50. I recognise that someone who started issues like that, those points could have been taken up in work as a civil servant as a teenager straight after the next round of negotiations. leaving school, and who has worked as nothing else until leaving the civil service in their 50s, might not find 5.30 pm themselves in a fantastic place in the labour market. It is therefore right that there should be proper protection Mr Maude: I have to take issue with the hon. Gentleman’s for people in those circumstances. That is why protecting phrase about the process just beginning to become those approaching retirement and the lowest paid people productive, because it was not. The outline suggestions in the civil service was an absolute priority for us. I were vague and the only way of paying for them would believe that the scheme that we have put in place meets have been by taking money away from lower-paid workers those commitments and priorities. or people approaching retirement. We explored whether 849 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 850

[Mr Maude] Clause 3 there was any other source from which those funds FINAL PROVISIONS could be redistributed, but it turned out that there were no alternatives. Mr Maude: I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 4. John McDonnell: If that is the right hon. Gentleman’s only concern and his only objection to the position of Mr Deputy Speaker: With this we may take Lords PCS, supported by the POA, why can he not simply amendments 5 and 6 and amendment (a) thereto. reopen negotiations now to resolve the matter? Mr Maude: The amendments respond to concerns Mr Maude: The hon. Gentleman talks as if this were raised by Opposition Members on Second Reading in a trifling consideration, but it is not. This process has the other place about the potential for the caps in what been going on for three years. If the Bill goes through is now clause 2 to be revived after being put into the remainder of its stages and on to the statute book, abeyance, which is what I propose to do next week the new scheme that I hope to lay before Parliament before the House rises and before the new scheme is before we rise for the Christmas recess, superseding the laid. The Government also proposed the amendments current scheme, will have been the product of many to respond to the comments about the unusual use of a months—indeed, years—of protracted discussions. I sunrise provision in clause 3(4)(c) that were made in the know that he disagrees, but I have to say that despite third report of the House of Lords Delegated Powers repeated requests, the PCS has been tardy, to say the and Regulatory Reform Committee, published on least, in coming forward with proposals and has, at 28 October. My noble Friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire best, made outline suggestions but never concrete proposals provided a full response to the Committee in his letter that could have formed the basis of an agreement. The of 1 December. We are grateful to the Committee for its other five unions did, and I am grateful to them for report. their engagement, which enabled us to forge a new The Committee also commented on the other provisions scheme—as I said, we hope to lay it before Parliament in clause 3 which would enable, by order, the caps next week—that will provide a fair balance between the included in clause 2 to be repealed and also to be interests of taxpayers and the interests of civil servants extended by six months at a time. That would override and protect those approaching retirement and the lowest the so-called sunset provision in clause 3(3), which paid. would otherwise mean that the caps on civil service compensation provided in clause 2 would expire John McDonnell: I am grateful to the Minister for automatically after 12 months. The Committee said giving way. Let me quote to him his statement to the that “these arrangements are complex”, but added that House on 30 October, when he gave a commitment that the two delegated powers he would “strain every sinew” to achieve a negotiated “do not appear to the Committee to be inappropriate”. settlement. What I am suggesting is that, if he has However, the Committee was not so persuaded of the identified an issue as an impediment to a negotiated need for the power in clause 3 to revive the caps in settlement, he should now adhere to his commitment to clause 2, that being an unlimited power that would have strain every sinew and meet the unions again. It is no been available to any future Government in circumstances use repeating over and over again the fact that five out that we cannot predict today. The amendments respond of six unions have agreed a settlement. They have not. to that point. The Government accept that there should The two unions that represent the vast majority of not be an unlimited power to revive clause 2. Lords members have rejected the Minister’s proposals. Surely amendment 6 therefore provides for subsection 3(4)(c) it behoves him now to go the extra mile and strain that itself to expire three years after Royal Assent, which is extra sinew to seek a negotiated settlement before he in effect a sunset of the sunrise provision. I can see why provokes industrial action or legal challenge. some people might say that that was a bit complex, but I think that, when fully parsed, it makes perfectly good Mr Maude: Those are not concerns that have just sense. arisen; they have been there throughout. I have been forthright in ventilating them with the leadership of the The sunset of the power to revive clause 2 would PCS and POA, and they know that. We have been clear mean that it would be there, as the Government intend, about the envelope within which it would be possible to as a fallback to revive the caps in clause 2, just in case make changes because increasing protection for one they were needed because of future problems in group can be done only at the expense of other groups. implementing the new civil service compensation scheme. There is no way around that. That is the basis on which However, the introduction of the three-year time limit we have formulated the new scheme, which I hope to lay should provide a reassurance that the power to revive before Parliament before the Christmas recess. That is clause 2 would not be available indefinitely to future the basis of my case. Governments. The caps are there as a potential fall-back so that we Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): All the can be certain—as both the last Government and we Lords amendments engage the financial privilege of have wanted to be—that we can reform the civil service the House. If they are agreed to, the appropriate record compensation scheme. We have an absolute obligation, will be made in the Journal of the House. in the public interest, to address the unfair and unaffordable nature of the current scheme, and we need to ensure Lords amendment 1 agreed to. that if a legal challenge is mounted to our revised Lords amendments 2, 3 and 7 agreed to. scheme—and it has been suggested that that may well 851 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 852 happen—there is a fall-back option, albeit one that we Joint Committee on Human Rights. Any Government have absolutely no desire to use. We do not expect or will have the power to impose those caps at a later date, intend to use the powers to impose the caps in clause 2; and to impose that level of penalty on civil servants what we want is to see in operation as quickly as who are made redundant. possible is the reformed civil service compensation scheme. If the Government are confident of being able to We are determined that, if all else fails, there will be a negotiate an agreed solution under the new scheme in fall-back position so that we are not left high and this coming period, why do they need the right, over a dry—as the last Government were—because of a legal three-year period, to impose these caps unilaterally? I challenge to the details of the new scheme. still think that if they sought to do that, it would be Before the new scheme is laid before Parliament, I subject to a legal challenge, but why would a Government intend an order to be made under clause 3(4)(a) to seek to retain that power if they were entering into repeal the caps in clause 2 in relation to any new negotiations with good will, genuinely seeking an agreement, scheme. We intend the order to include a saving provision and taking every reasonable step to secure one? so that the caps could be applied if, and only if, the old My amendment simply seeks to reduce the period to unreformed scheme had to be reintroduced. The saving 12 months, as an act of good will on behalf of this provision would allow that to happen automatically, House in respect of its employees in the civil service. I without the need to use the revival power by order believe the Government have set the period at three under clause 3(4)(c). I should make it clear that this years because they want to maintain their original saving provision would apply only if there were an purpose for the Bill, as previously described: to use it as attempt to revert to the old scheme. An order under a blunt instrument to bludgeon the unions into submission clause 3(4)(c) would be required, subject to the affirmative so they agree to the Government’s proposals. That is procedure, if it were ever proposed to revive the caps in unacceptable. I also think this will be another factor clause 2 and to impose them over the new civil service that leads to people rejecting the overall scheme in the compensation scheme that will be put in place following ballots that are currently taking place, and instead the completion of this Bill’s passage. moving on to take action to stop the scheme being Finally, unless further extended by order under imposed upon themselves and their fellow trade union clause 3(4)(b), clause 2 in its entirety—including the members. saving provision—will expire 12 months after Royal I urge the Government to think again, as 12 months Assent. From that point on, any revival of the caps should give them sufficient time to negotiate and would have to use the order-making power in clause introduce a new scheme, and to introduce any reforms 3(4)(c), which, because of these Lords amendments, or amendments that might be needed to hone it to make will only be available within three years of Royal Assent. it more workable if there were any problems with its I very much hope that by then the new civil service implementation. It is unacceptable for the Government compensation scheme will be in place and be operating to have the threat of this blunt instrument to hold over satisfactorily for all concerned—civil servants, departmental civil servants for three years. Introducing this measure employers and the civil service trade unions—and that would be another contributory factor to the deterioration the taxpayers’ interests and the proper interests of civil in the relationship between the Government and their servants will be being met. Amendments 4 and 5 are staff, who are meant to implement, with high morale, consequential on amendment 6. the policies they introduce. John McDonnell: The House needs to be aware of what this measure actually means, and I make it clear 5.45 pm that I will press my amendment to a Division. John Hemming: As someone who interests himself in procedural issues, perhaps I could think of the clause as Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will be able being more like a supernova clause after which the sun to move his amendment formally later. will not rise again. Not being a Government Minister, I have the advantage of having no confidential knowledge John McDonnell: Thank you very much for that whatever of the Government’s strategy. The interests of advice, Mr Deputy Speaker. I get confused when we are judicial review are relevant given that one would expect talking about sunset and sunrise clauses. a judicial review when the order for the new scheme is Let me explain what this measure means. Despite all laid, as it would be laid under the Bill relatively soon. In we have heard today from the Government about their those circumstances, the Government will not want to willingness to achieve a negotiated settlement on a new take a completely new piece of legislation through the compensation scheme and their wish to ensure that all House because of a judicial review. It is possible to the trade unions are signed up to it and that it is accelerate the proceedings of a judicial review, and the acceptable both to members of those unions and to courts would probably look on such an approach favourably people not in those unions, the fact is that they will given the situation for the country and the importance retain the power, over a three-year period, to impose the of having legal certainty, but it is quite important to caps set out in the Bill. have the facility to deal with such a situation if it arises. We should remind ourselves of what those caps are: However, I support the idea of having a supernova for a compulsory redundancy, an amount equal to a clause because there is a point at which the sun need not person’s earnings for 12 months, and that amount for rise again. 15 months for a voluntary severance. We heard in evidence in Committee—this has been repeated in the Mr Byrne: I want to speak briefly about Lords Chamber time and again—that that will mean a cut of amendments 4, 5 and 6, as well as amendment (a), up to two thirds in the redundancy payments of many tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and civil servants; 60% to 70% was the figure cited by the Harlington (John McDonnell). During proceedings on 853 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 854

[Mr Byrne] I shall be frank. We want to avoid being in the position that followed the High Court judgment in May the Bill, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich this year, which resulted in the previous Government’s and West Norwood (Tessa Jowell) has consistently raised February scheme being quashed. The effect of the concerns about the arbitrary caps that the Government scheme being quashed is that the existing scheme remains introduced at the start of this process, which now form unreformed and in force. Indeed, the old scheme— the body of clause 2. I confess that we are still not clear unaffordable, unsustainable and unreconstructed—is in about why the caps are still in the Bill given that clause force today. Of course, in preparing the new scheme we 1, which was newly introduced on Report, effectively were at some pains to ensure that it would be legally gives the Government the power to impose any settlement robust, and we shall vigorously defend any legal challenge after the consultations that we discussed earlier have to it. However, as was apparent from the litigation been completed. We heard, in the Minister’s helpful against the previous Administration’s scheme, there can update to the House, that there is a degree of agreement never be guarantees in litigation. Even litigation that is with at least some of the trade unions, which the destined ultimately to fail can be disruptive, because of Government have declared will supersede the terms in the uncertainty it causes until the case is concluded. the Bill. Why then do they not seek to introduce a sharp instrument containing the specific terms they have agreed John McDonnell: Could we clarify what the Minister with the trade unions, rather than the blunt instrument has just said? Is the provision he supports simply a containing general powers that is the Bill before us? device to be used to prevent UK courts from quashing the Government’s proposals? We are pleased that the Minister has given a clear commitment, in a letter to right hon. and hon. Members, Mr Maude: I shall be clear: both sides of the House that it is his ambition to have accepted that the current scheme is unsustainable “repeal the caps in clause 3 insofar as they could impact on the and needs to be reformed. With the possible exception new civil service compensation scheme”. of the hon. Gentleman, everyone, and certainly Opposition His letter also says that if the caps were ever revived he Front Benchers, has accepted that it is unacceptable for “would table an order…so as to increase the caps to such a level it to be possible for a union, or two unions, to veto that would…reflect what would otherwise apply under the new reform of the scheme. It must be possible for the scheme.” Government and Parliament to effect reform of the Most of us will welcome that good progress. civil service compensation scheme. If there is a successful In earlier debates, we raised concerns that the Bill legal challenge to a new civil service compensation would allow the revival of caps at any time in the future scheme—unlikely though that may seem—we cannot even after a negotiated settlement was in place. We fear have the position where the old scheme trundles on in that the relevant measure, which the Government call a its unsustainable, unaffordable and unfair form. That is sunrise clause, would put an undesirable amount of why there must be a fall-back position for a limited power in their hands during negotiations, as they could period. We have listened to the arguments and we have simply threaten to revive statutory powers whenever accepted that it will be a limited period, so that caps on they ran into any dispute on any matter, not just issues the use of the old scheme will be in existence, should the of redundancy. Given that it would allow the Government new scheme be quashed as the previous Government’s to resurrect the terms of a long-dead provision, it is not scheme was, by order of the High Court. so much a sunrise clause as a zombie clause, which What is the right period for the power to revive the would live on for ever. Whatever we call it, the measure caps? Is it one year, three years, five years or 10 years? is entirely without precedent in a Bill of this nature. There is no precise science, because no one knows how Indeed, the only recorded precedent of such a measure long the period is beyond which we could be sure that a is in the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005. successful legal challenge would not be raised. It is our We are pleased that there will be a limit of three years judgment that three years is the right period. That is the on the caps if they are revived, and that the Government view that we have taken. That is why we urged the Lords cannot extend that period. Given what the Minister has to agree, and I urge the House to accept that view today. said this afternoon, however, I do not see how he can We would thus be agreeing with the Lords in their argue that the correct balance of time and the correct amendments, and disagreeing with the amendment limit to any revived power should be three years. The proposed by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. whole House will welcome what the Minister said this Lords amendment 4 agreed to. afternoon about his ambition that the revival of the Lords amendment 5 agreed to. caps should never be triggered. If that is true—and I am Amendment (a) proposed to Lords amendment 6.—(John prepared to accept that it is—I do not see why he McDonnell.) cannot accept the very sensible amendment tabled by Question put, That the amendment be made. my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington. Although we are happy to accept amendments from the The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 313. Lords, we shall support amendment (a). Division No. 155] [5.55 pm Mr Maude: The right hon. Member for Birmingham, AYES Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) asked why we needed to keep Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Banks, Gordon the caps at all. The answer is simple. The caps will be Alexander, Heidi Barron, rh Mr Kevin established in primary legislation, but the new civil Ali, Rushanara Beckett, rh Margaret service compensation scheme, which I hope to lay before Austin, Ian Bell, Sir Stuart Parliament next week, before the House rises, does not Bailey, Mr Adrian Benn, rh Hilary have the full force of primary legislation, despite the Bain, Mr William Benton, Mr Joe changes to the Superannuation Act 1972 made by clause 1. Balls, rh Ed Berger, Luciana 855 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 856

Betts, Mr Clive Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Skinner, Mr Dennis Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Slaughter, Mr Andy Blears, rh Hazel Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blenkinsop, Tom Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Smith, Angela Blomfield, Paul Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Smith, Nick Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Soulsby, Sir Peter Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, Lyn Gwynne, Andrew Nandy, Lisa Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Tami, Mark Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom Osborne, Sandra Thomas, Mr Gareth Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Timms, rh Stephen Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Trickett, Jon Cairns, David Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Phillipson, Bridget Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Twigg, Stephen Caton, Martin Hilling, Julie Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Umunna, Mr Chuka Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Reeves, Rachel Vaz, rh Keith Clark, Katy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Emma Vaz, Valerie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Jonathan Walley, Joan Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Watson, Mr Tom Coaker, Vernon Horwood, Martin Robertson, Angus Watts, Mr Dave Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Weir, Mr Mike Connarty, Michael Illsley, Mr Eric Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Whitehead, Dr Alan Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Wicks, rh Malcolm Corbyn, Jeremy James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Mr Frank Winnick, Mr David Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Joan Wishart, Pete Creasy, Dr Stella Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Wood, Mike Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Wright, David Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Tessa Sheridan, Jim Tellers for the Ayes: Cunningham, Mr Jim Joyce, Eric Shuker, Gavin Phil Wilson and Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Singh, Mr Marsha Graham Jones Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz NOES Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David Adams, Nigel Brooke, Annette David, Mr Wayne Lavery, Ian Afriyie, Adam Browne, Mr Jeremy Davidson, Mr Ian Lazarowicz, Mark Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Davies, Geraint Leech, Mr John Alexander, rh Danny Bruce, rh Malcolm De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Buckland, Mr Robert Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Bacon, Mr Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Bagshawe, Ms Louise Burns, Conor Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Baker, Norman Burns, Mr Simon Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Love, Mr Andrew Baker, Steve Burrowes, Mr David Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Baldry, Tony Burstow, Paul Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely Dowd, Jim MacShane, rh Mr Denis Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona Barker, Gregory Cable, rh Vince Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Baron, Mr John Cairns, Alun Dugher, Michael Mann, John Barwell, Gavin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Bebb, Guto Carmichael, Mr Alistair Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Beith, rh Sir Alan Carmichael, Neil Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Bellingham, Mr Henry Cash, Mr William Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Beresford, Sir Paul Chishti, Rehman Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Bingham, Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Binley, Mr Brian Clappison, Mr James Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Birtwistle, Gordon Clark, rh Greg Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat Blackman, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Blackwood, Nicola Clegg, rh Mr Nick Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Blunt, Mr Crispin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Boles, Nick Coffey, Dr Thérèse Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Bone, Mr Peter Collins, Damian Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Bottomley, Peter Colvile, Oliver Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bradley, Karen Crockart, Mike Flynn, Paul Meale, Mr Alan Brake, Tom Crouch, Tracey Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Bray, Angie Davey, Mr Edward Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, David T. C. Gapes, Mike Mitchell, Austin Brine, Mr Steve (Monmouth) 857 Superannuation Bill14 DECEMBER 2010 Superannuation Bill 858

Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Spencer, Mr Mark Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Stanley, rh Sir John Davis, rh Mr David Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Stephenson, Andrew de Bois, Nick Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Stevenson, John Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, Simon Norman, Jesse Stewart, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Iain Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stewart, Rory Dorries, Nadine Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Streeter, Mr Gary Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Stride, Mel Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Stuart, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Stunell, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paice, Mr James Sturdy, Julian Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Swales, Ian Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike Swayne, Mr Desmond Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Swinson, Jo Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Swire, Mr Hugo Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tapsell, Sir Peter Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Teather, Sarah Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Poulter, Dr Daniel Thurso, John Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, Dr John Tredinnick, David Field, Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Truss, Elizabeth Foster, Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Turner, Mr Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Uppal, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vickers, Martin Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Charles Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, Mr Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Gale, Mr Roger Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Wallace, Mr Ben Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Walter, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Bob Wheeler, Heather Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rutley, David White, Chris Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Sanders, Mr Adrian Whittaker, Craig Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Whittingdale, Mr John Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Wiggin, Bill Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Roger Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Williams, Stephen Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Williamson, Gavin Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Willott, Jenny Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith Wilson, Mr Rob Grieve, rh Mr Dominic May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Young, rh Sir George Gummer, Ben McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Zahawi, Nadhim Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Halfon, Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Tellers for the Noes: Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna James Duddridge and Hammond, rh Mr Philip McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Stephen Crabb Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Question accordingly negatived. Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Lords amendment 6 agreed to. Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Lords amendment 7 agreed to. Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny TERRORIST ASSET-FREEZING ETC. BILL Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky [LORDS] (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Heath, Mr David Morris, David Ordered, Hemming, John Morris, James That the Order of 15 November 2010 (Terrorist Asset-Freezing Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen etc. Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows: Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Order shall be omitted. Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg 2. Proceedings on consideration and on Third Reading shall Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Hollobone, Mr Philip Murrison, Dr Andrew Motion for this Order.—(Mr Hoban.) 859 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 860 [Lords] Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords] of probabilities, we say that we want to be wrong less than half the time; we want to be probably sure that we Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill are right. Committee If we go any lower with a threshold, we take steps—we punish people—when we say that we believe that they Clause 2 were probably not involved in the given situation. That is the consequence of a threshold below the balance of TREASURY’S POWER TO MAKE FINAL DESIGNATION probabilities. None of us wants that, and none of us wants to take steps against people when we think that 6.11 pm they were probably not involved in the first place. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I beg to move I accept the principle of a lower threshold for interim amendment 2, page 2, line 1, after ‘believe’, insert designations. It is more akin to arrest, which takes place ‘on the balance of probabilities’. at a much lower threshold, but that is not the same as Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it the permanent designation. I strongly urge the Government will be convenient to discuss the following: to reconsider their proposal. They should consider taking such steps against people only when the Treasury believes Amendment 3, page 2, line 27, clause 3, at end that they were probably involved, rather than on the insert— basis of anything lower. ‘(aa) explain, as fully as possible consistent with the public interest in non-disclosure, the reasons why they are Amendment 3 is a simple requirement. A fair hearing satisfied that the conditions in section 2(1) are must mean knowing the accusations—the reasons why satisfied.’. the Treasury believes that somebody has been involved Amendment 5, page 13, line 41, clause 28, at end in funding terrorist activities. The amendment includes add— an important safeguard for public interest in non-disclosure, ‘(5) In section 67(3) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Rules so damaging information would not come out, only of court about disclosure)— that which we could afford to release. Again, I should have thought that we all agree with such a position. (a) in paragraph (c) after “that”, insert “subject to paragraph (ca) below”; and During the Bill’s passage, the Government have said (b) after paragraph (c) insert— that, effectively, the amendment’s intention will be achieved but they do not want to see it in legislation. I am always “(ca) that in relation to a final designation, the material disclosed by the Treasury on which they rely is concerned, however, about the principle that we should sufficient to enable each designated person to give not write things into legislation but trust in the benevolence effective instructions to a person appointed as a of Governments—this or any future Government. If special advocate to represent that party’s interests;”.’. the Minister will not accept the amendment, will he Amendment 11, page 29, line 28, schedule 1, at end clearly commit to disclose such reasons subject to the insert— public interest requirement, as the amendment says—even (fa) leave out rule 79.2.’. if that takes place in a non-legislative way? Amendments 5 and 11 deal with the hearing itself. Dr Huppert: I am delighted to move amendment 2, Section 67(3)(c) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 and to speak to amendments 3, 5 and 11, which are also puts a heavy weight on the principle of non-disclosure. in my name. They reflect recommendations from the Although that is an important principle, we must counter Joint Committee on Human Rights, and Members might it with the principle of a fair hearing. Currently, the wish to see its more detailed report if they have not balance goes far too far in the direction of non-disclosure. done so already. The amendments are all about ensuring proportionality and a fair hearing. In the case of AF, it was held that similar rules are not appropriate to control orders, so I find it hard to see We should clearly be able to restrict funds that help why the courts will not in time hold the same principle terrorists in their activities, but people who are accused on terrorist asset freezing. There are more details on of such activities should not automatically lose their that reasoning in the Joint Committee’s report. The regular status in this country. We have a great principle courts have yet to take such a decision, but surely as a in this country whereby a person is innocent until principle it would be better not to go through costly proven guilty; it is a great British tradition and one that legal action, but to save time by making the changes we should support. We should also accept, however, now. that errors are made in legal processes, by the court and by Governments, and that is why we should have principles There is a review of the use of sensitive material in of fair hearing and high thresholds before we take state judicial proceedings, and I welcome the fact that there action. will be a consistent approach. If the Minister will not Amendment 2 is about errors and the thresholds that agree to including such safeguards in the Bill, will he we require. How can we be sure that the courts or the commit to the Bill being updated when the review is Treasury are making the right decision? How much complete in order to reflect that consistent approach error is acceptable? Various thresholds are already used and to introduce a better system throughout those for various decisions. We have the threshold of beyond areas? I shall listen carefully to the Minister’s comments reasonable doubt, which roughly equates to our saying on all those suggestions, and I hope he takes on board that we do not accept even a 1% error—to the extent what has been said. that we can attach numbers to it. Then, we have the civil standard, or the balance of probabilities, whereby we Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I am grateful to the want to be sure that we are probably right. We want at hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) for introducing least a 50:50 chance—in other words, with the balance the amendments, which represent important issues that 861 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 862 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr David Hanson] which initially had its genesis in the previous Government, so that all measures are taken to ensure that the asset the Joint Committee on Human Rights considered. freeze can take place and action can be taken accordingly. However, the Opposition believe that the test of reasonable I understand the concerns of the hon. Member for belief is appropriate to the circumstances covered by Cambridge; they are valid and should be explored. the Bill. Indeed, I said so in Committee. However, in clause 26 there is a right of appeal for The tests for the asset-freezing regime are strict. In designation both at an interim and final stage. If an clause 2(1)(a)(i) to (iii), the Treasury has to consider real individual feels aggrieved, he can undertake to exercise issues about the involvement of individuals in terrorist that right of appeal. However, very few people will do activity before such powers can be invoked. Those so if the Bill becomes law, because the Treasury will considerations are: have taken steps to ensure that those individuals are “(i) that the person is or has been involved in terrorist activity, rightly in the frame, for the reasons that the asset regime (ii) that the person is owned or controlled directly or indirectly has been introduced, and I trust the Treasury to take by a person within sub-paragraph (i), or those actions; that is not something we say all the time (iii) that the person is acting on behalf of or at the direction of but, on this occasion, I have done so. a person with sub-paragraph (i)”. I hope that the hon. Gentleman feels that he has If we changed from reasonable belief to a situation raised the issues of concern. I am sure that the Minister in which the Treasury had to satisfy the balance of will give, almost word for word, the exact response that probabilities, as the amendment proposes, we would I would give. I am happy to talk about the amendments water down the ability of the Treasury and, therefore, in more detail, but my message to the hon. Member for the Government to take early action on the use of Cambridge is clear: in the event of him pushing the resources to finance terrorist activity in relation to the matter to a vote, he will find not just the Financial items detailed in clause 2. The asset-freezing regime Secretary against him, but the shadow Minister. must be preventive to be effective. One must be able to use it at an early stage to disrupt and prevent terrorist The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark acts, and a threshold of a balance of probabilities Hoban): I shall respond to each of the amendments would not enable the Government to act when action is proposed by the hon. Member for Cambridge needed. (Dr Huppert). I welcome the approach adopted by the The balance of probabilities test is applied by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who speaks courts in the context of civil proceedings and requires with some authority on these matters, having dealt with one party to demonstrate to the court that it is more them in Government. Looking around the Chamber, he likely than not that a particular fact is true. If that test is probably the Member with the most experience of were applied to asset freezing, it would require the tackling these issues. The amendments were considered Treasury and, indeed, the Minister to be satisfied and in Committee. They were tabled by the hon. Member able to demonstrate to a court that a person is more for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), and I likely than not to be, or to have been, involved in made the same comments in response to them then as terrorism. That is too high a burden at the moment, I do today. He sought to withdraw them in Committee because the burden of proof would rest with the Treasury. and I hope that the hon. Member for Cambridge will do the same today. If the Treasury brings forward proposals under this legislation in due course, I rest assured that it will have As I said in Committee, amendment 2 would change had solid grounds, from the intelligence and information the threshold for the making of a final designation from provided to it, for doing so. If the picture were unclear, the Treasury from reasonably believing a person is or and an equally plausible argument could be made for has been involved in terrorism, to needing to be satisfied an individual not being involved in terrorism, the Treasury on the balance of probabilities. As I emphasised on would not be able to impose an asset freeze. That might Second Reading and in Committee, the asset-freezing put the constituents of Cambridge and, in my case, regime needs to be preventive to fulfil our UN Security north Wales, or any constituent in the country, at risk of Council obligations and to meet our national security terrorist attack. needs. In other words, it must be capable of being used at an early stage to disrupt and prevent terrorist acts. Dr Huppert: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman In our view, a threshold on the balance of probabilities knows of the existing power for an interim designation. would not enable us to act when needed. The balance It has a much lower threshold, so in emergency cases, of probabilities test is applied by courts in the context such as those that he mentions, there would be no of civil proceedings and requires one party to demonstrate problem and we would be safe. I am delighted that he to the court that it is more likely than not that a cares about the people of Cambridge so much, but the particular fact is true. If that test were applied to asset amendments are about longer-term designations. freezing, it would require the Treasury to be satisfied and to be able to demonstrate to a court that a person is Mr Hanson: Indeed, but I speak as somebody who in more likely than not to be or to have been involved in the previous Parliament was the Minister responsible terrorism. for terrorist issues and policing. Those are serious matters, That may sound reasonable but—to echo the words and the Government need to take action on them. of the right hon. Member for Delyn—it is, in fact, a There is always a balance to be struck between the civil high burden. The fact that the burden of proof would liberties of individuals and the civil liberty of ordinary rest with the Treasury means, for example, that if the people to live their lives in peace without the threat of picture were unclear and an equally plausible argument terrorist activity. On balance, my judgement is that we could be made that an individual was or was not need to support the Government’s proposals in the Bill, involved in terrorism, the Treasury would be unable to 863 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 864 [Lords] [Lords] impose an asset freeze. The serious threat posed by review to determine whether there are reasonable grounds terrorism means that in such cases where the reasonable for that belief. That is the right test. It provides an belief standard is met, the Treasury should be able to assurance that a proper burden is placed on those freeze assets on a preventive basis to protect the public. seeking to impose a designation but, at the same time, it The alternative is to hold back until further evidence is enables action to be taken to protect national security accumulated. However, that runs the risk of an individual when needed. being able to carry out a terrorist act without preventive Let me move on to amendment 3, which, as the hon. action being taken. Member for Cambridge pointed out, reflects the report I hope that the hon. Member for Cambridge bears it by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I understand in mind that—as eminent judges such as Lord Justice that the amendment would ensure that individuals are Laws and Lord Rodgers have remarked—we need to be sufficiently informed of the reasons for their designation mindful of the fact that material available to the authorities at the point their assets are frozen in order to enable about terrorist plots may be fragmentary and incomplete. them to mount an effective challenge. As I stated in The picture may not be complete for good reasons, but Committee, the Government do not believe it is necessary that does not mean that the material is wrong. Such a to include such an obligation in the Bill because the situation simply reflects a number of real-world facts JCHR’s proposal was intended only to ensure that the about terrorism: that intelligence has to be gathered Treasury complies with the basic administrative law covertly; that terrorists go to considerable steps to disguise principle of giving reasons for such decisions. It is the their activities; and that the need to protect the public Government’s view that administrative law principles sometimes means that plots have to be disrupted at an apply regardless of whether a duty is specified in this early stage, rather than letting them run on further to legislation. Writing such an obligation into the Bill is accumulate more evidence. For those reasons, moving therefore unnecessary.I think that that was the commitment to a balance of probabilities test would have significant the hon. Gentleman was seeking. risks for our national security. Amendments 5 and 11 were considered in the other I also explained in Committee that a balance of place and in Committee. It is worth reminding the probabilities test would be out of line with international House that the Prime Minister announced in July that best practice. The Financial Action Task Force makes it the Government will review the whole matter of the use clear in its guidance on terrorist asset freezing that a of sensitive material in judicial proceedings and will legal threshold of reasonable suspicion or reasonable issue a Green Paper next year. We expect the Green belief should be used. We are not aware of any other Paper to be published in the summer. The Government country that uses a balance of probabilities test to do not consider it appropriate to pre-empt it, which freeze terrorist assets in accordance with UN Security we would certainly be doing if we were to accept Council resolution 1373. As I set out on Second Reading amendment 5. and in Committee, for those reasons we remain convinced Let me consider the amendment in detail. It seeks to that a reasonable belief test is the right threshold for create a new subsection within section 67 of the Counter- making a designation and that it strikes the right balance Terrorism Act 2008, which provides for the content of between protecting our national security on the one court rules about disclosure in financial restrictions hand and protecting civil liberties on the other. proceedings and which will apply to court rules made in relation to challenges to decisions under the Bill. The Mr Hanson: Will the Minister confirm again what I amendment would place a requirement for the court think he said in Committee, which was that whatever rules, which are to be made initially by the Lord Chancellor the outcome of the review of terrorist legislation—including for England and Wales and Northern Ireland, to ensure the review of the case of AF and control orders—the that the Treasury provides sufficient open disclosure to Bill will stand as it is now without amendment in that enable the designated person to give effective instructions respect? to the special advocate. That form of words is based on the European Court of Human Rights judgment in the Mr Hoban: If we assume that the legislation will case of A, which was applied by the House of Lords in receive Royal Assent, it will stand. However, clearly, all the case of AF and others to the stringent control terrorist legislation is kept under review and it would be orders that were before it. The effect of the amendment wrong to prejudge the outcome of any other court case. would therefore be to apply “AF No. 3” principles to We have taken forward the best form of the legislation, challenges to final designations. I reassure the hon. which was, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, based Member for Cambridge that persons designated by the on the previous Government’s proposals. The Bill reflects Treasury will have the full protections afforded them case law as it stands. under article 6 of the European convention on human rights. Section 67(6) of the 2008 Act states: Despite the approach we have taken on reasonable “Nothing in this section, or in the rules of court made under it, belief, the Bill will not result in the Treasury making is to be read as requiring the court to act in a manner inconsistent decisions where it thinks it is more likely than not a with article 6 of the Human Rights Convention.” person is not involved in terrorism. The point is that the It is therefore absolutely clear that article 6 rights apply decision maker should believe, from a careful assessment in full to asset freezing. of what may well be a complicated intelligence picture, that a person is involved in terrorism. The threshold of reasonable belief for a decision is one used in many 6.30 pm contexts, including in decisions made about terrorism, However, the Government do not accept that “AF such as under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security and others”principles automatically apply to asset freezing. Act 2001 and under schedule 7 to the Counter-Terrorism The application of this judgment to asset freezing has Act 2008. The courts are then asked on an appeal or not yet been determined by the courts. The courts have 865 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 866 [Lords] [Lords] determined that “AF and others” principles apply to the Clause 31 stringent control orders before them in that case and also to the financial restrictions under the Counter- NDEPENDENT REVIEW OF OPERATION OF PART 1 Terrorism Act 2008. However, the courts have not I determined that “AF and others” principles apply to asset-freezing cases, and it would be wrong to say that Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 1, page 15, line 25, legally there is no room for doubt on this. leave out ‘a person’ and insert ‘the Independent Reviewer of Terrorist Legislation, as appointed under section 36 As I said in Committee, in our view “AF No. 3” of the Terrorism Act 2006.’. principles do not apply to asset freezing because asset freezes are not as significant in their human rights impact as stringent control orders can be, nor are they Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it as wide-ranging in their financial and economic impacts will be convenient to discuss amendment 6, page 15, line 25, as decisions to impose financial restrictions under the at end insert— 2008 Act. However, this is something that it is open to ‘( ) A person may not be appointed under subsection (1) the courts to determine if the Government’s position unless— were to be challenged. Should the courts decide that (a) the Secretary of State lays a report before both Houses “AF and others” principles apply to asset-freezing cases, of Parliament which recommends the person and sets any court rules that cut across this will be read down to out the process by which he was chosen, ensure compatibility with the ruling. It would not be (b) a Minister of the Crown tables a motion in both necessary to amend the legislation. I hope that hon. Houses to approve the report laid under this Members agree that it would not be right to prejudge subsection, and appoint the person, and such a determination by the court and require now the (c) such a motion is agreed by a resolution of both Houses disclosure of sensitive information that could damage of Parliament.’. national security or the detection or prevention of crime. Doing so would clearly not be in the public interest. Amendment 7, page 15, line 31, leave out ‘send the Treasury a’. Let me return to my point about the Green Paper. It would also be wrong to adopt a piecemeal approach to Amendment 8, page 15, line 32, after ‘report’, insert this important issue. The issue of special advocates and ‘to Parliament’. the use of intelligence material clearly cuts across a Amendment 9, page 15, line 34, leave out subsection (4). number of areas. If we try to address these important Amendment 10, page 15, line 37, at end add— issues ad hoc in individual pieces of legislation, we risk ‘( ) Appointment under subsection (1) shall be for a ending up with different requirements in different pieces non-renewable term of five years.’. of legislation. Mr Hanson: We had a good debate on this issue in Dr Huppert: Notwithstanding the answer that the Committee. It is my contention that if we are to create a Minister gave to the shadow Minister, if the result of post to review the operation of this Bill once it achieves the Green Paper process suggests that we should update Royal Assent, it makes eminently logical sense for the the legislation in this respect, will he agree to do so? person who is appointed by the Treasury to review the legislation to be the same person as the one appointed Mr Hoban: In the context of this amendment, which by the Home Office under section 36 of the Terrorism seeks to affect the court rules, the court rules would be Act 2006 to review terrorist legislation and its impact reinterpreted in the light of any action taken forward as from the Home Office perspective. As the House will a consequence of the Green Paper. know, Lord Carlile is currently appointed to that position. The Green Paper will ensure that such a coherent and He is independent of government; he has an office consistent approach is taken to the use of sensitive outside the Home Office as well as a secure office in the material in judicial proceedings. Its timing should allow Home Office; and he provides an independent review of for judgment to be handed down in the lead case in a range of issues, including control orders and other relation to whether the judgment in the case of AF and legislation under the 2006 Act. Clause 31 of this Bill others applies more widely than to stringent control allows for an individual to be appointed by the Treasury. orders—that is, in the employment tribunal case of In Committee, I tested the Minister on whether he had Tariq. That case will be heard by the Supreme Court in discussed with the Home Secretary the possibility of January, and we expect a judgment in the spring. appointing the same person under clause 31 to review part 1 of this potential Act as is currently appointed by As I said, it would be wrong to pre-empt the Green the Home Office to review legislation under the 2006 Paper. I hope that having heard my arguments, the hon. Act. Gentleman will welcome and support the approach that we are taking and withdraw his amendment. Whatever our agreements in Committee, there is also, I hope, an agreement that we do not want to see duplication of these roles. The role of reviewing whether Dr Huppert: I thank the Minister for his comments a designation has been made fairly and is being operated and for the assurances and commitments that he was fairly is the same as that of reviewing whether an able to give. I continue to disagree with him about the individual’s control order has been judged and operated standard that should be required, and I still find it fairly. I accept that there are differences, as alluded to by concerning that we are not moving towards a balance of the Minister in Committee, but in broad terms an probabilities. However, I will not press the matter to a individual appointed under clause 31 to review part 1 of vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. this potential Act will be dealing with similar issues and Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. similar evidence—sometimes evidence supplied by agencies 867 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 868 [Lords] [Lords] within government—and undertaking similar assessments Lord Carlile was independent. Never once did he ask of the effectiveness and fairness of the operation of the me for information that he could not access appropriately. legislation. Never once was he compromised by Ministers, of whatever hue, in relation to his jurisdiction and duties. He has The current reviewer, Lord Carlile, will finish his provided a fair assessment of the operation of the tenure in that role very shortly. Mr David Anderson QC legislation to date. will be the new independent reviewer of terrorism legislation from, I think, 1 January next year. He has expertise in I hope that the Minister reflects positively on amendment the European Union, in public law and in human rights. 1. I suspect that he will not support amendments 6 to He is a Queen’s counsel of more than 10 years’ standing, 10, which were tabled by the hon. Member for Cambridge, and he is a recorder and a visiting professor at King’s because the independence of the post is crucial. If we tie college London. The skills that are required to review it to the Minister or to the House of Commons, we will control orders under the 2006 Act are, in my view, the betray that independence and do a disservice to the role. same as those required to review the provisions in this If the Minister cannot give me good news on amendment Bill. I am making this proposal because there could be 1, I hope that he can encourage me generally on the synergy between the two posts. appointment. I look forward, also, to hearing the hon. Member for Cambridge speak to his amendments. I am equally interested—I know that the Minister will have a wry smile at this—in the costings and the Dr Huppert: I will speak briefly to amendments 6 operation of the parallel regimes in the event of the to 10, which come from the Joint Committee on Human Minister appointing somebody different to review the Rights, on which I am privileged to serve. I agree with provisions of this Bill when enacted. The Home Office the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) that the supplies the reviewer with administrative facilities, office key issue is the independence of the reviewer. The support and research support as needed. He has an amendments seek to strengthen that independence, by independent private office in central London as well as ensuring that the reviewer is a creature not of Government, secure rooms in the Home Office that he uses to deal but of Parliament. Being nominated by Government with information to help him in his task. I question the and approved by Parliament would give the reviewer need to establish a parallel regime with a separate greater independence. person being appointed through a separate recruitment There is also a question of accountability. Who should procedure and having separate offices inside and outside hold accountability on behalf of the British public— the Treasury, given that very often, and potentially even Parliament or Government? Should the reviewer’s report more so in this current age, the individual may be go directly to Parliament, or should there be the potential reviewing activities that impact on the same small group for it to be filtered by Government? Although I accept of people who are seeking to do harm to our citizens in that that does not generally happen, there is the potential the United Kingdom as a whole. for it to happen. I would welcome an update from the Minister on my suggestion and on whether he has had an opportunity Mr Hanson: I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider to talk to the Home Secretary about this matter. Has that Ministers are accountable to Parliament. I rose the Minister had an opportunity to consider whether because of his use of the word filter. When I was the the person who will be appointed under clause 31 Minister with responsibility for policing and terrorism, should be the same person who is appointed by the not once did I change a single word of a reviewer’s Government to review Home Office legislation under report to Parliament, even though such reports were the 2006 Act? produced ultimately by Ministers for this House. I do not expect that any other Minister would do so, because My amendment has been unduly twinned with the the independent reviewer would make a play of it and rest of the amendments in the group, which were tabled the relationship would be devalued tremendously. by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). They relate to the method for appointing the reviewer— Dr Huppert: Indeed, I was saying that I did not whether they are appointed as under my proposal or as believe that that had ever happened, and I am grateful under the Bill. The hon. Gentleman has again drawn on for the assurance that it never has. That shows exactly the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights in why amendment 6 makes sense. If no Minister would proposing that the House of Commons should ultimately ever filter such reports, there should be no requirement be the appointing body for the independent reviewer. for them to go through Ministers. That creates a potential Unusually, I think that I will find myself agreeing filter that we hope will never be used. I hope that the with the Minister. Whatever my views on a range of Government simply agree with my position, so I will issues, I cannot accept amendment 6, because the post not labour the point. However, I doubt that the Minister of the independent reviewer must ultimately be a will say that he agrees. Government appointment. It reports to and supplies I will raise something that I mentioned on Second information to Ministers, and it is ultimately funded by Reading, which might provide a compromise. As the the Government to provide that information. It is crucial, Minister is aware, there is a recent precedent for Select however, that the post is independent of Ministers. It Committees to approve independent appointments. That reports to them, provides them with information and is happened with the Office for Budget Responsibility and funded by them, but it ultimately acts independently of I hope that it will happen with other bodies. Perhaps them. It advises them and can cause difficult issues for the Minister will agree that it would be helpful for the them, because of its independence. If the post was reviewer to be confirmed by an appropriate Select appointed and supported by a resolution of both Houses Committee in a similar way, to ensure that there is of Parliament, it would be in a very different position certainty for Parliament as well as Government that the from an independent reviewer of legislation. reviewer will perform their role properly and independently. 869 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 870 [Lords] [Lords] 6.45 pm recognise that asset freezing deals with sensitive and classified information. That is why the Government Mr Hoban: I did not know that we were going to believe that a similar approach is appropriate. proceed at such a quick pace this evening, although The independent reviewer will have access to all perhaps it is not as quick as you, Mr Deputy Speaker, relevant papers and evidence, including highly classified and other colleagues might have hoped. I hope that we intelligence reports and, on occasion, material that is will not detain the House too much longer on the being considered as part of a separate criminal prosecution. matters before us. It is important to ensure that published reports do not I will deal with amendments 6 to 10 first, before include classified or sub judice material, and Parliament returning to amendment 1. As the right hon. Member could not undertake such a check. I reassure my hon. for Delyn (Mr Hanson) pointed out, amendment 1 Friend that the Government will not seek to influence relates to a topic that gave rise to one of the longer the outcome of any report. The reports will be provided debates in Committee. to Parliament as quickly as possible after they have been delivered, and they will be available to the public. The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) relate to the appointment Amendment 10 suggests that the appointment of the of the independent reviewer and the terms by which he independent reviewer should be for five years, and that will report. My hon. Friend and other hon. Members it should not be renewable. We do not believe it necessary will be aware that such amendments were debated at or desirable to have a statutory limit on the length of length during the Bill’s passage in the other place and in time that a reviewer should remain in post. There might Committee. As I said in Committee, the proposals are be valid reasons why someone wishes to step down at an based on the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism earlier stage, but there might also be valid reasons why Act 2005 that relate to the independent reviewer of they wish to occupy the position for a longer period. terrorism legislation. That provides an effective and They will build up significant experience and significant suitable model for the statutory independent asset-freezing knowledge of how legislation works, and that will be reviewer. invaluable. It is important to take the opportunity to learn from Amendment 6 would require the independent reviewer the experience of the current reviewer and see how he to be approved by Parliament. I believe that the intention feels the system should work. In the debate in the other is to ensure that the reviewer is suitably independent of place, Lord Carlile said about appointment procedures: Government. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend that the Government are fully committed to the “As to the way in which the independent reviewer is appointed, I do not have any very strong views. Appointment by a Minister independence of the reviewer. Independent oversight is does not make the reviewer any less independent. Many public an essential element of the safeguards that the coalition appointments have sprung surprises on government; for example, Government have introduced into the Bill, and it will be chief inspectors of prisons. Independence is in the way the person the principal objective of any appointment. I will touch concerned operates.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 October on the recruitment process later. 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1085.] We do not believe that it is necessary for Parliament I notice that the right hon. Member for Delyn raises his to approve the independent reviewer. That would be a eyebrows at the reference to the chief inspector of significant departure from standard practice. The prisons—he clearly knows from his own experience how appointment of the reviewer by Government reflects independent such people can be once they are appointed. the long-standing principle of ministerial responsibility. On the question of whether submitting reports to the It is Ministers who are accountable to Parliament and Government, rather than directly to Parliament, would to the public for the people whom they appoint. Parliament run the risk of reports being altered in any way, Lord will, of course, be able to scrutinise the work of the Carlile said: reviewer and to hold him or her to account through “I cannot imagine any circumstances in which any honourable existing mechanisms—for example, through Select person appointed to this role would be prepared to change their Committee scrutiny. report at the behest of a Minister or civil servant for political reasons. It has never happened. It did not happen with any of the My hon. Friend proposed the compromise of a reviewers before I was appointed, it has not happened during my requirement that an appropriate Select Committee approve period of tenure, and I do not think it will happen with any the appointment of the reviewer. The Minister for the successor I can foresee under the present or changed Cabinet Office and Paymaster General is due to meet arrangements.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 October the Liaison Committee shortly to discuss the pre- 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1086.] appointment hearing process. A decision to add new That reinforces the right hon. Gentleman’s experiences. appointments to the list of posts subject to pre-appointment It is essential that the independent review of the scrutiny may be announced as a result of that meeting. asset-freezing regime is robust, impartial and transparent, Amendments 7, 8 and 9 would replace the independent and we are satisfied that the provisions in the Bill reviewer’s obligation to report to the Treasury and the regarding the appointment and operation of the reviewer Treasury’s obligation to lay that report before Parliament are appropriate to achieve that. I therefore hope that my with an obligation for the reviewer to report directly to hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge will not press Parliament. To draw a comparison, all the annual reports his amendments. and ad hoc reports produced by Lord Carlile, the current Amendment 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, have been Delyn, would, as he said, ensure that whoever fulfilled provided in the first instance to the Home Office to the role of Home Office independent reviewer of terrorist check that they do not inadvertently contain any classified legislation would also fulfil the role of independent material that cannot be published. Hon. Members will reviewer of asset freezing. I shall provide the House 871 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 872 [Lords] [Lords] with an update on the Treasury’s position on the reassured by what he has said. He has been very fair in appointment of an independent reviewer, but first I his assessment that there are synergies between the two wish to set out why we do not support the amendment. roles and potential cost savings. An individual could The Government do not accept that the independent undertake both roles, and from my experience the two reviewer for asset freezing must always be the same posts may be reviewing a similar pool of people. I person as the Home Office counter-terrorism reviewer. believe that progress has been made. Requiring them to be the same person would unnecessarily The Bill obviously needs Royal Assent very quickly, reduce flexibility, and could therefore constrain the because of the expiry of the previous legislation. I urge Government’s ability to appoint the best person to the the Minister to ensure that, upon his final approval of a post. There might be good reasons why, in a particular person to review the operation of the Bill, he tables a case, both roles could not be held by the same person. written ministerial statement. The individual needs to For example, the best qualified person for the job might be in post prior to the time set out in clause 31(2) for the simply not have the time to carry out both roles to the production of the first set of reviews, which is nine level required. months after part 1 comes into force. It is important for We have to remember that both roles are demanding the House to have feedback on that, and that will keep and important. Counter-terrorism legislation is an expansive the House informed, at least in part, of matters related and complex area, and the issues raised concerning the to the other amendments in this group. balance between protecting security and protecting civil I am very pleased to “bag” my amendment. The liberties are of fundamental importance. Moreover, Minister has made his case and come as near as he can individuals may well wish to combine their work as to saying what will happen. I beg to ask leave to independent reviewers with other ongoing professional withdraw the amendment. commitments. That is entirely reasonable, as long as it Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. does not give rise to conflicts of interest. In the light of Third Reading that, it would be wrong to say that we must only ever appoint somebody who can perform both roles. We need to retain flexibility and always look for the most 6.58 pm suitable person to do the job. Mr Hoban: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read We recognise, however, that there are good arguments the Third time. for combining the two roles where it is possible and desirable to do so. That might produce greater consistency I start by thanking right hon. and hon. Members and coherence and better value for money, as the right from all parts of the House for their participation on hon. Member for Delyn said in Committee. As I have Second Reading, in Committee and now on Report, said, however, we need to consider the matter on a and for helping the Bill reach this stage. It has been case-by-case basis and not just assume that combining given careful scrutiny, even though it has not been the the two roles is the only approach that can work. most lengthy scrutiny process. The issues have been dealt with thoroughly both in Committee and on the I now turn to the current situation. Myofficials have Floor of the House. been in close contact with Home Office and Cabinet Office officials to explore the matter further. There has We have considered very closely the civil liberties also been an initial discussion with the incoming counter- issues that have been raised in our debates and how best terrorism reviewer, David Anderson, to explore whether to address them without compromising national security. he would be willing to be considered for the asset I am confident that the Bill strikes the right balance freezing reviewer post. Mr Anderson has indicated that between protecting national security and protecting he would be willing to take up the post were it to be civil liberties, but it is right that we have considered offered to him, and that neither he nor the Treasury is carefully both in Committee and on Report amendments aware of any impediment to his taking on the role were that would strike a different balance. it to be offered. I am grateful for the Opposition’s constructive approach. At this stage, the Treasury has not made an offer of The Bill’s genesis was legislation that they developed in appointment to the role, and in our view it would be the previous Parliament. We have taken that legislation premature to do so. After all, the Bill is not yet law and forward and, I think, improved it by introducing additional the post does not yet exist. However, I reassure the safeguards to protect fundamental freedoms. House that the Treasury is considering all the relevant The Opposition could have extended the debate on issues, including value for money and the interconnection these changes, had they so wished, but they did not do of the two roles. The process of appointing a reviewer is so. I recognise that the right hon. Member for Delyn on track, and the appointment will be made in plenty of (Mr Hanson) brought his experience to our debates. time for the reviewer to prepare their first report, which That helped to enlighten the scrutiny process. It is right is due nine months after the Bill comes into force. I that where there is agreement between Government and hope that that update will reassure Members of the Opposition, we should make it clear that that is the case progress that the Treasury is making in filling the post, and co-operate in the national interest, in the same way and of its recognition of the points made today about as, when we were in opposition and faced with the costs and the interconnection of the two roles. On that Supreme Court judgment that triggered the Bill, we basis, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be worked with the then Government to ensure that the willing to withdraw his amendment. temporary legislation reached the statute book quickly to maintain the security of our nation. Mr Hanson: I think I will take that as a sort of yes I think that we all recognise that the Bill is necessary from the Minister about the principle behind the to the United Kingdom’s continued national security. amendment, even though he is not accepting it. I feel We have seen again with the events in Sweden at the 873 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 874 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr Hoban] 7.4 pm Mr Hanson: I simply want to say on behalf of the weekend the threat posed by international terrorism. official Opposition that we welcome the Bill, which, as The Government must have the right tools to combat the Minister has said, had its genesis with the previous terrorism in the UK and overseas, and among those Government. Previous Treasury Ministers have worked tools must be options to act preventively and to be able with officials to develop a regime that is, in my view, to disrupt terrorist plots in their planning stages. It is about protecting civil liberties. We hear a lot about civil worth bearing in mind that the Bill covers assets in the liberties in these debates, and the Bill is about protecting UK but might relate to parties overseas. The most those liberties and protecting individuals’ rights to live recent set of figures that I have shows that of the 57 their lives without fear of terrorist attack. The terrorist freezing cases covered by this Bill, 25 of those involved asset-freezing regime that is in place and that will be in are resident in the UK and the remainder are resident place once the Bill receives Royal Assent will help to overseas. The most durable freezing orders are those develop still further the protections to ensure that those that relate to people outside the UK. Of the 46 cases who wish to do harm to our society do not use such that are more than four years old, 31 relate to cases resources to do that harm. outside the UK. It is important to bear in mind that we must have the tools to combat terrorism wherever it The Bill has obviously been subject to great and happens. detailed scrutiny, not just here but in the other place. It has also been scrutinised by the Joint Committee on One of the most effective ways of limiting terrorists’ Human Rights. As a House, we have considered the actions is to limit their ability to finance attacks, maintain arguments put to us about several issues and we have their infrastructure, provide training, equipment and ultimately decided that they do not hold merit. That is recruitment, and promote their message of hate. The an important part of the process. The Bill leaves us with UK’s terrorist asset-freezing regime is an important and the full support of the Opposition. It will, I hope, valuable tool. That is why there was cross-party support provide greater safety for our community and help to for the emergency legislation earlier this year and why I ensure that we take action against those who use finance hope the House will unite behind the legislation today. to undertake terrorist acts. I am pleased that the Minister has given a strong Let me reiterate some of the changes that have been indication that he will consider seriously the two roles made to make the Bill stronger and better. The Bill of the reviewer. One is set out in clause 31 and the introduced in the other place was a significant improvement other—the reviewer of terrorist activity, who will soon on the current regime. It included more targeted prohibitions be David Anderson, QC—is set out in previous legislation. to limit the impact of asset freezing on innocent third There is merit in that synergy. Having heard what the parties; a provision to ensure that, in accordance with a Minister has said today, I wish the Bill well and the ruling in the European Court of Justice, the regime did Opposition support it. not catch the payment of state benefits to the spouses or partners of designated persons and so did not have the draconian impact on family life that the Supreme Court 7.6 pm was concerned about; and the establishment of an Dr Huppert: I have spoken on a number of issues independent reviewer—something we talked about today already, so I shall be brief. I agree with the general and in Committee—to ensure that there is proper sentiment that we must prevent terrorist activity and the independent scrutiny of the asset-freezing regime. funding that supports it. I would rather that we had seen a court-based system that was fair and safeguarded Further safeguards were introduced by Members in civil liberties in the ways that I tried to draw out, but I the other place to raise the legal test for freezing assets accept that that is not what we have. The system that for more than 30 days from reasonable suspicion to I would like to see would provide the national security reasonable belief and to strengthen judicial oversight by that we need while protecting the civil liberties that we ensuring that there is a full merits-based review of deserve, but I accept that that is not the settled will of designation decisions. Combined, those important new the House. safeguards will serve to make the asset-freezing regime significantly more proportionate and more transparent There is still one issue of detail that I would like to in its application, in addition to raising the legal threshold explore. Clause 25(1) contains the fascinating phrase: that must be met for a freeze to be imposed. However, I “Nothing done under this Chapter is to be treated as a breach also believe that they are changes that will not undermine of any restriction imposed by statute or otherwise.” the effectiveness of the regime or risk the UK’s continued Let me give the Minister a further chance to comment. compliance with international best practice. I welcome Could he perhaps reassure me that that phrase is not the endorsement that many Members have given the intended to mean that the Human Rights Act 1998 and changes, both in this House and the other place. common law rights would not apply? That is one possible reading of it. I believe that that is not the intended In summary, I believe that the Bill we are considering meaning, so can he assure me that the Human Rights for the final time today strikes the right balance between Act and common law will remain sovereign? If he wants protecting public safety and protecting civil liberties, to say that, I shall be delighted to let him intervene. and that the balance we have struck commands widespread In the meantime, while the Minister reads the clause, and cross-party consensus in Parliament. The Bill will let me reflect on what the Bill does. It is interesting to put the UK’s terrorist asset-freezing regime on a secure consider the scale of the problem. There was a statement legislative footing and significantly improve it. We have from the Minister on 23 November about how many made excellent progress against a tight deadline, and I accounts had been frozen—a total of 205 accounts as am pleased to be able to commend the Bill to the House. of 30 September, containing less than £290,000. Although 875 Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill 14 DECEMBER 2010 876 [Lords] terrorist activities can be carried out on relatively small Identity Documents Bill sums of money, we should be clear with ourselves and Consideration of Lords amendment with the public about the amounts that are involved. Of that £290,000, only £140,000 would be covered by the Bill, as it was covered by the predecessor legislation. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I must draw That is a relatively small amount although it can, of the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege course, have a large effect. is involved in the Lords amendment. Having given careful consideration to the amendment, Mr Speaker is The Bill is not as good as it could be and that is a satisfied that it would impose a charge on the public shame, but it is a lot better than its predecessors. I revenue that is not authorised by a resolution of this welcome that fact and the effort that the Government House. The amendment is therefore deemed to be disagreed have made to accept amendments in the other place, if to, and is not available for debate, in accordance with not here. I am happy to see it pass its Third Reading. Standing Order No. 78(3). Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up Question put and agreed to. Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with their amendment; amendments. That Damian Green, James Duddridge, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe, Mark Tami and Dr Julian Huppert be members of the Committee; That Damian Green be the Chair of the Committee; Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The House was due That three be the quorum of the Committee. to have the opportunity to discuss the Lords amendment That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(James to the Identity Documents Bill, but I understand that Duddridge.) Mr Speaker will not allow that to happen because of Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be the lack of a money resolution. Will we have any reported and communicated to the Lords. opportunity to debate what the Lords have said about the fairness of ensuring that those people who bought identity cards can have some compensation? Business Without Debate

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the DELEGATED LEGISLATION hon. Gentleman for that point of order, of which he Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing gave me short advance notice. As will become apparent Order No. 118(6)), from what I am about to say, the next bit of business will give him his answer. ROAD TRAFFIC That the draft Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 15 November, be approved.—(Mr Vara.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

EXCISE That the Tobacco Products (Descriptions of Products) (Amendment) Order 2010, (S.I., 2010, No. 2852), dated 29 November 2010, a copy of which was laid before this House on 30 November, be approved.—(Mr Vara.) Question agreed to.

EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),

CORPORATE GOVERNANCE IN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND REMUNERATION POLICIES That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 10823/10 and Addendum 1 relating to a Green Paper on corporate governance in financial institutions and remuneration policies; and supports the Government’s approach to work closely with the European Commission to deliver a strong, principles-based framework for financial sector corporate governance.—(Mr Vara.) The House divided: Ayes 281, Noes 195. 877 Business Without Debate14 DECEMBER 2010 Business Without Debate 878

Division No. 156] [7.12 pm Kawczynski, Daniel Raab, Mr Dominic Kelly, Chris Randall, rh Mr John Kirby, Simon Redwood, rh Mr John AYES Knight, rh Mr Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Kwarteng, Kwasi Reevell, Simon Adams, Nigel Dunne, Mr Philip Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Afriyie, Adam Ellis, Michael Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Aldous, Peter Ellison, Jane Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Alexander, rh Danny Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Bacon, Mr Richard Eustice, George Leech, Mr John Ruffley, Mr David Bagshawe, Ms Louise Evans, Graham Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Bob Baker, Norman Evennett, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sanders, Mr Adrian Barclay, Stephen Farron, Tim Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Barker, Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Baron, Mr John Foster, Mr Don Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Bingham, Andrew Fuller, Richard Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mr Edward Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Blackman, Bob Garnier, Mark Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Blackwood, Nicola Gauke, Mr David Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Blunt, Mr Crispin George, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Soubry, Anna Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark Bradley, Karen Glen, John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Brake, Tom Goldsmith, Zac McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert McVey, Esther Stevenson, John Brazier, Mr Julian Gove, rh Michael Menzies, Mark Stewart, Bob Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Brine, Mr Steve Gray, Mr James Mills, Nigel Stewart, Rory Brooke, Annette Grayling, rh Chris Milton, Anne Streeter, Mr Gary Bruce, Fiona Green, Damian Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Bruce, rh Malcolm Gyimah, Mr Sam Mordaunt, Penny Stuart, Mr Graham Buckland, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert Morgan, Nicky Stunell, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Burns, Conor Hammond, Stephen Morris, David Swales, Ian Burns, Mr Simon Hancock, Matthew Morris, James Swayne, Mr Desmond Burrowes, Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Swire, Mr Hugo Burstow, Paul Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Burt, Lorely Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Byles, Dan Hart, Simon Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Cable, rh Vince Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Cairns, Alun Hayes, Mr John Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Carmichael, Mr Alistair Heald, Mr Oliver Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Carmichael, Neil Heath, Mr David Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Chope, Mr Christopher Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Vickers, Martin Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Robin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Wallace, Mr Ben Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Walter, Mr Robert Colvile, Oliver Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Ward, Mr David Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard Watkinson, Angela Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Paice, Mr James Webb, Steve Davey, Mr Edward Hughes, Simon Parish, Neil Wharton, James Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Wheeler, Heather Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen White, Chris de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, Mike Whittaker, Craig Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Perry, Claire Wiggin, Bill Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Willetts, rh Mr David Dorries, Nadine Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Williams, Roger Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Williams, Stephen Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Williamson, Gavin Duddridge, James Jones, Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Willott, Jenny Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Pugh, Dr John Wilson, Mr Rob 879 Business Without Debate14 DECEMBER 2010 Business Without Debate 880

Wollaston, Dr Sarah Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Emma Young, rh Sir George Stephen Crabb and Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Jonathan Zahawi, Nadhim Mr Shailesh Vara Jowell, rh Tessa Riordan, Mrs Linda Joyce, Eric Robertson, Angus Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John NOES Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Abbott, Ms Diane Docherty, Thomas Kendall, Liz Rotheram, Steve Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Mr Frank Alexander, Heidi Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lavery, Ian Roy, Lindsay Ali, Rushanara Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Ruane, Chris Bailey, Mr Adrian Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris Ruddock, rh Joan Bain, Mr William Doyle, Gemma Lewis, Mr Ivan Sarwar, Anas Banks, Gordon Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony Seabeck, Alison Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dugher, Michael Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Sharma, Mr Virendra Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Ms Angela Love, Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Lucas, Caroline Sheridan, Jim Benton, Mr Joe Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Ian Shuker, Gavin Berger, Luciana Elliott, Julie MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Skinner, Mr Dennis Blackman-Woods, Roberta Ellman, Mrs Louise Mactaggart, Fiona Slaughter, Mr Andy Blenkinsop, Tom Engel, Natascha Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blomfield, Paul Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Angela Brennan, Kevin Evans, Chris Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim McCabe, Steve Smith, Owen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flello, Robert McCann, Mr Michael Soulsby, Sir Peter Brown, Mr Russell Flint, rh Caroline McCarthy, Kerry Spellar, rh Mr John Bryant, Chris Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stuart, Ms Gisela Burnham, rh Andy Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Byrne, rh Mr Liam Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Alan Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Thomas, Mr Gareth Caton, Martin Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Timms, rh Stephen Chapman, Mrs Jenny Glass, Pat Meacher, rh Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Clark, Katy Glindon, Mrs Mary Meale, Mr Alan Turner, Karl Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goggins, rh Paul Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek Clwyd, rh Ann Greatrex, Tom Michael, rh Alun Umunna, Mr Chuka Coffey, Ann Green, Kate Miller, Andrew Vaz, rh Keith Connarty, Michael Greenwood, Lilian Moon, Mrs Madeleine Vaz, Valerie Cooper, Rosie Griffith, Nia Morden, Jessica Walley, Joan Corbyn, Jeremy Gwynne, Andrew Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watson, Mr Tom Crausby, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Watts, Mr Dave Creagh, Mary Harman, rh Ms Harriet (Easington) Weir, Mr Mike Creasy, Dr Stella Havard, Mr Dai Mudie, Mr George Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Paul Whitehead, Dr Alan Cryer, John Hendrick, Mark Murray, Ian Winnick, Mr David Cunningham, Alex Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nandy, Lisa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cunningham, Mr Jim Heyes, David Nash, Pamela Wishart, Pete O’Donnell, Fiona Cunningham, Tony Hilling, Julie Wood, Mike Onwurah, Chi Curran, Margaret Hollobone, Mr Philip Wright, David Dakin, Nic Hopkins, Kelvin Osborne, Sandra Danczuk, Simon Illsley, Mr Eric Owen, Albert Tellers for the Noes: Darling, rh Mr Alistair Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby Phil Wilson and David, Mr Wayne James, Mrs Siân C. Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Mr David Hamilton Davidson, Mr Ian Jamieson, Cathy Davies, Geraint Johnson, rh Alan Question accordingly agreed to. De Piero, Gloria Jones, Graham Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Helen 881 14 DECEMBER 2010 Pension Funds 882

Pension Funds exposed the dangers of share owners acting like what Lord Myners dubbed “absentee landlords” or, worse Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House still, actively encouraging their investee companies to —(Mr Vara.) do now adjourn. pursue short-term profit at the expense of the long term. Ultimately, it is millions of ordinary people who 7.25 pm provide the capital and suffer the economic consequences Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab): when that capital is not used responsibly. The case for Somewhat earlier than I anticipated, I rise to make a greater transparency is compelling. few comments about the operation of pension funds So what should that mean in practice for the and their transparency. Government? Earlier this year, the Financial Reporting Everyone knows that the world of pensions is changing Council published a stewardship code for institutional fast. With the decline of defined benefit schemes and investors aimed at encouraging responsible ownership. the shift to defined contribution, pension savers are It is far from perfect, but it is a start. In particular, its shouldering more and more of the investment risk to strong focus on transparency, including transparency in their savings, and with the advent of auto-enrolment in the exercise of voting rights, is welcome. However, there 2012, even more people’s future well-being will be bound is a danger of the interests of pension savers being up with the capital markets through their pension funds. forgotten in this process. The code’s provisions on voting These trends make greater transparency of pension disclosure are a tacit recognition that people have the fund investments an urgent imperative for three reasons. right to know how the voice of shareholders is being First, if ordinary savers are bearing the risk to their used on issues such as executive pay, takeover bids or investments, it is only right that they should be in a environmental resolutions. However, the code is largely position to scrutinise how their agents are managing aimed at asset managers. those risks. If we expect individuals to take more Ordinary people cannot be expected to know which responsibility for providing for themselves in old age, asset manager their pension fund uses and proactively they should at least be given the tools to hold accountable to seek out that manager’s disclosures. Improvements those on whom their retirement security depends. in fund manager transparency will give savers the Secondly, the huge—and hugely profitable—industry accountability and visibility that they deserve only if charged with looking after people’s savings has an extremely pension funds play their part too. Disappointingly, although poor record. In recent decades, we have seen the growth the FRC has stated that pension funds have an important of an enormous cadre of agents and intermediaries role to play, the pensions regulator has not yet produced who extract huge fees at the direct expense of ordinary any official guidance for pension funds on how they savers at the bottom of the investment chain. For instance, should apply the stewardship code. The role of pension a report published last week by the Royal Society for funds has often been left to the National Association of the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Pension Funds, which is an industry body—a less-than-ideal Commerce—known as the RSA—found that the total situation, I tentatively suggest. Does the Minister agree fees charged by pension funds swallow up an astonishing that it would be appropriate for the pensions regulator 40% of the end value of the average British pension, to look into the matter? Will he raise it when he next which is much more than in our European counterparts. meets the regulator’s newly appointed chair? One might at least expect that this is paying for superior Notwithstanding what I have said so far, it is clear skills and therefore higher returns on investment, but that the stewardship code will not be a panacea when it pension fund returns are actually declining: between comes to accountability and transparency. FairPensions, 2000 and 2009, they collapsed to an average of 1.1% per the campaign for responsible investment, yesterday year. Paul Woolley at the London School of Economics published an analysis of fund managers’ performance has calculated that excessive short-termist trading in on transparency, including their reporting under the shares is likely to erode rather than enhance the long-term stewardship code. Although it showed some improvements, value of pension pots. Pension fund investment strategies almost one in six asset managers surveyed still did not are a very real issue for any Government who are disclose any information about their voting records. serious about tackling the looming pensions crisis, which One manager justified that by saying that it was up to we all acknowledge. the clients—that is, the pension funds—to disclose such The third reason transparency matters is that pension information. However, recently published guidance from funds are huge institutional investors with enormous the National Association of Pensions Funds makes it collective influence on the financial markets and the clear that it thinks that disclosure is up to the asset wider economy. If the financial crisis taught us anything, manager and is not the pension fund’s responsibility. it was the danger of handing over ordinary people’s There is a real danger that such buck passing will result money to financial institutions and assuming that they in nobody disclosing and the pension savers at the will take care of it without the need for further scrutiny. bottom of the chain remaining in the dark about how The interests of pension savers are, by definition, long their money is being managed. term, yet in the build-up to the financial crisis, many pension funds engaged in the same short-termist strategies The Government could avoid that danger by doing and herding behaviour as the rest of the market. two things. First, they could make voting disclosure mandatory for asset managers by exercising their reserve The American academic Keith Johnson has described powers under section 1277 of the Companies Act 2006. the influence of these investors as akin to unleashing I understand that this is not within the Minister’s gift, “a flock of 900-pound lemmings” but I hope that it will be considered by his colleague the into the economy. There is, therefore, a legitimate public Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, interest in how pension funds behave, including in how as part of his review of economic short-termism. Secondly, they exercise their ownership rights. The financial crisis the Government could clarify pension funds’ obligations 883 Pension Funds14 DECEMBER 2010 Pension Funds 884 in this area by amending the regulations, which already typical myopia, many investors still neglect the E and S require pension funds to disclose their voting policy, to of ESG—the environmental and social. The Deepwater make it clear that they should also disclose information disaster, which forced BP to cancel its dividend for the about their voting practices. Alternatively, that could be first time since the second world war, should have been included in the pensions regulator’s guidance. a wake-up call for anyone who still doubted that companies I do not believe that either approach would impose that ignore such issues face serious financial risks. It an unreasonable burden on pension funds. If their fund should also have been a wake-up call for pension funds—for managers are already required to report on their exercise which the BP dividend was a significant source of of voting rights, it should be sufficient in most cases for steady income—to pay attention to such issues as a key pension funds simply to provide a link to that information part of their fiduciary duty to pension savers, as the on their websites. That would be a small matter for the legal opinion obtained for the United Nations Environment fund in question, but a huge improvement in accountability Programme confirmed some five years ago. for the pension saver. It would also make information The challenge of climate change makes recognition directly accessible to the pension saver—instead of them of that duty even more urgent. Climate change is not being expected to go hunting for it—and would help to only an investment risk, which it clearly is; it also has embed transparency right down the investment chain. innumerable ramifications for the retirement security of In the US, the duty of disclosure is now a recognised the next generation of pensioners. A 25-year-old pension part of pension funds’ fiduciary duties towards their saver clearly has a broad interest in ensuring that his or beneficiaries. That is right, and I hope that we can move her savings are reducing rather than increasing the risk down that road here. that they will grow old in a world ravaged by catastrophic Those in the investment industry who are unwilling climate change. to open themselves up to scrutiny in that way have come The Ministers responsible for the 2000 regulations up with various arguments over the years to defend clearly intended to nudge pension funds into taking their secretive business models. Most such arguments—the account of non-financial issues. To some extent they idea that such a proposal would be enormously costly, were successful, as the UK Sustainable Investment and or compromise commercial confidentiality or even Finance Association noted, in marking the 10th anniversary damage relationships with the company—have been of the regulations. ESG integration is more mainstream comprehensively discredited over the years. The latest than it was 10 years ago, but there is clearly still a long argument appears to be that it is pointless to require way to go. It would be wrong to say that the objectives investors to disclose such information because nobody of the 2000 regulations have been achieved. A 2009 would read it. The Minister should be able to tell us that United Nations report expressed “disappointment” that this argument is nonsense. I understand that in June he investment consultants still advise pension funds to received some 1,500 e-mails from supporters of FairPensions include boilerplate statements on environmental, social asking him to support their right to access such information. and ethical issues that Earlier this year, more than 6,000 people contacted “meet the letter but not the spirit of the law.” their pension funds to ask how they would be voting on Members who ask about specific voting decisions are shareholder resolutions about tar sands at BP and often directed to such generic statements, which are of Shell’s annual general meetings. As it turned out, those little or no use to them. Indeed, that is exactly what savers’ concerns about the risks of unconventional oil happened to Members of this House who inquired extraction proved well founded, at least in the case of about their own pension fund’s stance on the tar sands BP. Those pension funds might have found themselves resolutions earlier this year. in a better position financially if they had listened to Research by FairPensions also suggests that such box their members a little more. There is clearly a growing ticking is often not accompanied by much substantive movement of people who want to know what is being action. Its 2009 survey of pension funds showed that done with their money—a movement that is being held almost all had a policy stating that they took non-financial back by a pervasive lack of transparency and a culture issues into account, but around a third did not integrate of hostility to the people whose money is at stake the policy into their agreements with fund managers or having the impertinence to ask questions. assess their fund managers’ ability to implement it, nor That brings me to the final point that I want to stress. did they require them to report on its implementation. It is vital that any moves towards greater transparency It is reasonable to ask what those funds were doing to pay enough attention to environmental, social and implement their stated policies. It is also reasonable governance issues—sometimes known as ESG. Survey to ask how those policies gave any meaningful insight to after survey has shown that savers care about such the curious member wanting to know what their fund issues. The rise of socially responsible investment products was doing about environmental and social issues. As the and the success of campaigns, such as that on the tar UN report concluded, sands resolutions, show that people want to act on that “the time may have come to review how” concern, but they must be given the information and the tools to do so. The previous Government sought to give the disclosure regulations’ them that information some 10 years ago, by introducing “effectiveness could be improved with additional reporting and regulations requiring pension funds to state the extent disclosure requirements that will supersede mere ‘tick box’ to which they take environmental, social and ethical compliance.” concerns into account in their investment policies. In other words, perhaps we need a further nudge, some Since then, the G in ESG—governance—has received 10 years on from the initial regulations. a huge amount of attention, after it became obvious I understand that the Minister’s official position is that conflicts of interest, excessive pay and poor risk that the existing regulations are adequate, but in a management contributed to the financial crisis. Yet with recent parliamentary answer, his colleague Lord Freud 885 Pension Funds14 DECEMBER 2010 Pension Funds 886

[Jon Cruddas] raising such issues directly with individuals to enable them to make informed choices without always having confirmed that his Department has made no assessment to be proactive and to go and dig them out, makes me of how the regulations are operating. Given that so feel more positive about the institution that I am dealing many others who have done such analyses have concluded with. that change is needed, will the Minister commit to The hon. Gentleman is right to raise these issues. He exploring how the situation might be improved? Guidance mentioned the organisation Fair Pensions, and I from the pensions regulator on stewardship could provide congratulate it on its research, which is often thorough an opportunity to clarify what constitutes an adequate and careful. It is neither broad-brush nor high-level, but policy under the 2000 regulations, encouraging pension it examines the detail of the law and the regulations to funds to go further than boilerplate positions. determine how things might incrementally be improved. Perhaps more importantly, the Government could I welcome the fact that he has brought to the House’s require pension funds to report on a regular basis on attention some of the issues that he and Fair Pensions how they were implementing that policy. That could be are concerned about. helpful in focusing minds and ensuring that these policies are not, as one fund manager described them, a “dead I want to respond mainly on the questions of corporate document” but a genuine commitment that is given full governance and accounting transparency, but I also weight in investment decisions. Again, this is not an want to touch briefly on charges. The hon. Gentleman unreasonable thing to ask. Pension funds are already mentioned a figure of 40% of pensions going to pay required to produce an annual report, including an charges, and that is a figure that we often hear quoted. investment report. Under the stewardship code, it is It is worth correcting the record on what that does and reasonable to assume that this should include a summary does not refer to. It is certainly not an average or a of their stewardship activities during the year. It is also norm. Someone who pays 1.5% charges through the life reasonable to assume that the report exists to give of their product might end up losing 40% of the fund pension savers meaningful information with which to on retirement, but there is no reason why anyone with a judge the fund’s performance. Environmental and social standard product need pay those charges. The stakeholder issues should be no exception to this. There is popular cap would start at 1.5% and fall to 1%. The new demand for such information, and that demand should National Employment Savings Trust—NEST—pension be met. will have an equivalent average management charge of 0.5% a year. Every charge represents a bit coming out of I hope I have shown that pension funds’ behaviour as the final return, but people are paying for a service and responsible investors, including with regard to environmental charges are therefore legitimate provided that they are and social issues, is neither a trivial sideshow nor an transparent. It is important not to overstate the extent issue that concerns only policy makers dealing with of charges. corporate governance or financial services. It has real implications for our ability to meet the challenge of One thing that we hope will happen as a result of providing a decent pension, and a decent standard introducing the NEST corporation into the market next of living, for all our citizens across the country. year, and more fully in the coming years, is that it will have a downward impact on charges across the market. To recap my questions to the Minister: will he discuss When stakeholder pensions were introduced there was these matters with the pensions regulator? Will he encourage evidence that some charges—which might have been the regulator to produce some guidance? And will he even higher than the figures quoted by the hon. look again at the disclosure regulations and explore Gentleman—were brought down, and we think that the ways in which they could be updated or supplemented same will happen again. to ensure that pension savers are getting the levels of transparency that they deserve? That raises the issue of the relevant roles of regulation, on the one hand, and of alternative strategies, on the other. I find a lot of common cause with the points that 7.41 pm the hon. Gentleman raised. He is an intelligent and The Minister of State, Department for Work and thoughtful contributor to these debates. One of the Pensions (Steve Webb): I congratulate the hon. Member paradoxes that he raised is illustrated by asking whether for Dagenham and Rainham (Jon Cruddas) on securing further regulation is the solution to regulation that is this debate and raising such an important issue for not achieving what we want it to achieve. Or should we many of our constituents. Pensions are sometimes seen consider better enforcement of existing regulation, or as a bit of a minority sport for anoraks, but the issue of alternative strategies? I suspect that the answer might be what is happening to our money, and of whether it is a mix of all three. He used powerful terms such as being invested well, and in an environmentally and “boilerplate”, “paragraphs”, “dead documents” and socially beneficial way, matters very broadly, and the “tick-box” mentalities. We do not want to create new more we can do to reduce the barriers that people face tick-boxes. We want to ensure that the spirit of the law in obtaining that information, the better. and the guidance is adhered to. As the hon. Gentleman was speaking, I was reflecting The NEST corporation has done some interesting on the fact that I bank with Smile, the internet arm of work on attitudes to ethical investment, which is worth the Co-operative bank. As a member of the Co-operative sharing with the House. It was actually the predecessor movement, I periodically receive mailings about ethical body to NEST, the Personal Accounts Delivery Authority, investment issues and about the policies of the bank that conducted some public consultation on how NEST and how they could change. I have some interest in should invest its members’ money. NEST will be a those matters professionally, but even just as a private pension fund with the potential to cover millions of citizen I find that process quite engaging. The process of people, many of whom will never have had a pension 887 Pension Funds14 DECEMBER 2010 Pension Funds 888 before and who might not be financially sophisticated implausible. We therefore have an incentive to have a investors. The target market was asked whether NEST proportionate regime that maximises the beneficial impact should offer of that activity. “an ethical or socially responsible investment fund”. There is a lot going on in relation to corporate As the hon. Gentleman might imagine, the research reporting. In looking into this in preparation for the evidence suggests that there was very strong support for debate, I identified at least three different Government NEST offering such a fund, and the corporation is consultations and calls for evidence that are now going thinking about how it will do that. At the moment, on, and that are relevant to this area. I shall update the about 40% of defined contribution schemes offer an House on where we are with those, starting with the ethical fund. I appreciate that there is a difference Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which between an ethical fund and transparency in pensions, has been consulting on the future of narrative reporting but there are links between the two. in order to address the coalition commitment to reinstating an operating and financial review. That policy was Back in 2007, my Department looked at the NEST dropped a while ago, and the intention is to reinstate it. target group, and more than a quarter said that they That consultation has closed and our BIS colleagues would invest in an ethical fund regardless of the return. will shortly publish a summary of responses with a view So they thought that they were interested in that idea to outlining the next steps in the new year. even if sacrificing a bit of their return was involved. Also, a whisker under half of those surveyed said that The three key objectives, with which I think the hon. they would invest ethically if the returns were equal to Gentleman would agree, were as follows. The first was other investment types. Perhaps that reinforces the hon. to improve the quality of company reporting to Gentleman’s point that there is a big market out there shareholders, the second was to empower shareholders for such investment funds, and that people are concerned to hold directors to account on their performance, and about such things. They might not understand every the third was to ensure that any measures we as the detail of what is happening to their money or what is Government introduce will improve the quality and going on in the financial markets, but they want to relevance of disclosures; that relates to the point that know that their money is, as it were, doing good wherever the hon. Gentleman made. possible. Some are willing to make a financial sacrifice Our colleagues at BIS are, as they say, exploring all to achieve that, and many more would rather be in that the options—regulatory and non-regulatory—to make position than not. That suggests that the issues that the sure that companies report on matters that are material hon. Gentleman has raised are important and mainstream, to their business and their shareholders, including as he said. consideration, where relevant, of social and environmental One of the challenges in dealing with this issue is that issues. What our BIS colleagues say is that where existing there are many links in the chain. We have the individual regulation is not meeting its aims, they will be looking investor who puts money into a pension fund, along at options to facilitate better and more relevant reporting with their employer. Then we have the pension fund and to empower shareholders to hold companies to trustees, the investment managers and the businesses in account where the needed information is not provided. which the money is invested. At each stage there are There is a welcome and ongoing commitment to issues of transparency and reporting that need to be empowerment of shareholders and to relevant reporting, addressed, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says. not just box-ticking exercises. The present legislation on occupational pension schemes That is the first exercise, which in a sense is more is contained in the investment regulations of 2000. It mature, within the few months for which the coalition will not be entirely helpful to my case to do so, but I am has been in power. The second relates to the point that going to quote exactly what they say. They require a the hon. Gentleman made in his speech about short- scheme’s statement of investment principles to termism. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills published in October a call for evidence on the “disclose the extent (if at all) to which social, environmental, or extent of short-termism and market failures in UK ethical considerations are taken into account in the selection, retention, and realisation of investments.” equity markets, looking at issues and causes and whether the current law is suitable. A whole range of issues is The regulations also require schemes to disclose covered by that, including whether investors are increasingly “their policy (if any) in relation to the exercise of the rights short term and whether—to use a bit of economic (including voting rights) attached to the investments.” jargon—there are principal agent problems in the investment As the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, however, that chain. is a requirement to disclose a policy, but not necessarily In a sense, that is how I started my remarks, by saying individual votes on individual issues. I know that many that we do have a chain: there are concerned citizens, shareholders do not just want information on a boilerplate perhaps pension funds, financial intermediaries, and policy that might be cut and pasted from somewhere then the companies in which they invest. At each stage, else; they want more specific information on how the as the hon. Gentleman said, the danger is that each scheme approaches its position. thinks it is the other’s job to do what is necessary: “Is it The figures change from month to month, but latest my job to report or your job to ask?” There is certainly figure that I have seen shows that British pension funds scope for greater clarity on that subject. own about £1 in every £7 or £8 of the UK stock market, One reason why I mentioned the consultations across so they are powerful players. Obviously, they do not government and the calls for evidence is that there may often speak with a single voice, so they are perhaps be more openness on such issues early in a new Parliament more fragmented than that single figure suggests, but or new Government than when a Government have the idea that vast numbers of billions of pounds are not been in power for a long time and have a settled and having an influence on company behaviour seems rigid position. Clearly, the present Administration has a 889 Pension Funds14 DECEMBER 2010 Pension Funds 890

[Steve Webb] UK stewardship code had already helped to encourage voting disclosure. Examples are provided of several strong emphasis, where possible, on deregulation, so it asset management firms that have improved their practices. would be fair to say that there is not an appetite for net I think that that is progress, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s additional regulation. That much is true, but where point that although it is another link in the chain where goals can be achieved proportionately by non-regulatory things are perhaps improving, we need to look at the measures or by a mix of regulation and deregulation so whole system. A stewardship code should, in the view that there is no overall increase, there would be much of the Financial Reporting Council, be based on the more openness. I would therefore encourage the hon. idea of “comply or explain”; in other words, investors Gentleman and, through him, Fair Pensions and others, should either get on with it and comply, or at the very by saying that if they can suggest measures that have no least explain why they have not done that, so that regulatory burden or minimal regulatory burden, or people can form a judgment on that. identify other regulations that could be repealed because The Financial Services Authority has expressed its they are not effective, their ideas would find more belief that the principles of the stewardship code are as favour, particularly with my colleagues in BIS who have applicable to occupational pension schemes as to other overall responsibility for regulatory policy. I hope that types of pension and that, ultimately, occupational that provides a helpful steer. pension scheme managers will still be answerable to Continuing the theme of Departments listening and the scheme’s trustees. The FSA does not consider it consulting, the Department for Work and Pensions unreasonable to require scheme managers to disclose and I have recently published consultation on guidance their commitment or otherwise to the code, given the on default funds. Once we are in a world of auto-enrolment, nature of the disclosure requirement. people who do not make an active fund choice will end Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked whether I would up in a default fund, so it is pretty important to see what raise these issues with the new chair of the pensions such a fund looks like. The guidance that we put out for regulator. I will be very happy to do that—although consultation sets out the standards by which default obviously, the new chair and the regulator itself are investment options should operate. The hon. Gentleman operationally independent of the Department and will will be reassured to know that the key standards are form their own judgment. I know that they take a about robust governance, review of the default investment risk-based approach to what they do, so one of their option, transparency of charges and providing appropriate top priorities is ensuring that funds are adequate and information to members about investment decisions. deficits are dealt with. They prioritise some pretty basic Those things will help. things like making sure that schemes have proper records In connection with the hon. Gentleman’s comments of who is in them and how much money they have put about the parliamentary scheme, I can tell him that in. There is a lot on their plate, but the issues that the another scheme of which I have been a member is the hon. Gentleman has raised are important as well. I will universities scheme. I recall speaking at a recent conference certainly flag up his and the House’s interests in such where a representative of that scheme was present. I matters when I meet—as I hope I will before too long—the raised the issue of scheme members wanting to know new chairman whom we announced last week. what was being done with their money. I mentioned In conclusion, I reiterate my thanks to the hon. that as a member of that scheme, I did not recall ever Gentleman, to Fair Pensions and to other campaigners getting any very useful information. His answer was, on these important issues. The Government are doing a “It’s on the website.” I feel that there is occasionally a lot of listening, consulting and calling for evidence. I need to remind those who manage our money that it is hope that the hon. Gentleman and others will feed into our money. That should make them proactive in those consultations so that the feedback that we get will communicating with scheme members: asking them help to shape the way in which we take forward this what they want would be a positive factor in that important agenda. I am very grateful to him for placing respect. it before the House this evening. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Financial Reporting Question put and agreed to. Council and its stewardship code. As he said, it has taken a step in the right direction. Fair Pensions’ own 7.57 pm report “Stewardship in the Spotlight” found that the House adjourned. 189WH 14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 190WH

as many of the senior police officers and teachers in our Westminster Hall constituencies? Their average income is between £28,000 and £40,000 in London. Tuesday 14 December 2010 Ms Buck: My right hon. Friend makes a good point. It is true that legal aid practitioners who take on institutions in the public sector, and sometimes the private sector, [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] are significantly less well paid than those professionals who make the public policy decisions that they challenge. Legal aid It is important to put on the record that the previous Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Labour Government took decisions that bore down on be now adjourned.—(Angela Watkinson.) legal aid expenditure. Not everyone will have agreed with those decisions—they may have challenged them—but 9.30 am there was a healthy debate. It must also be accepted that Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I am had Labour been re-elected, there would have been cuts delighted to have secured this important debate so soon in the legal aid budget. It is not the case, however, that after the publication of the legal aid Green Paper. It is a the unfolding policy of the Labour party would have mark of how significant such issues are that there is a placed the pressure, which we now see emerging, on good attendance in the Gallery and that a number of civil, family and social welfare law. Those are the areas Members of Parliament are present hoping to make a of concern that I want to address. contribution. It is critical to protect criminal legal aid. If it is not Members of Parliament have a particular interest in available at the right level and provided by quality legal aid, particularly in the broader context of advice professionals, justice will be denied. It is very important services, because we are part of the family of advisers. to protect a proper criminal legal aid budget. I pay That was brought home to me during my first week as tribute to Lord Bach, the former Minister with responsibility an MP when, at my very first surgery, a gentleman for legal aid, who looked at ways in which to bear down asked me for assistance in having his wife deported. I on exceptional costs in the criminal legal aid budget was not able to refer that case to a partner legal aid without sacrificing the principles of access to justice. I firm. think there was consensus on that. Over the course of 13 years, I have made extensive My concerns are about the manner in which the legal use of, and am enormously grateful to, private firms, aid Green Paper attacks—and it is an attack—the law centres and other advice centres in my constituency legal aid budget. It bears down particularly severely on and elsewhere, and I will pay tribute to them by name. civil cases, including family and social welfare, and Paddington law centre is an excellent local facility that takes a number of areas out of the scope of aid entirely. has assisted thousands of people in the community. The Such areas include children and family cases in which London borough of Westminster is often used as a domestic violence is not a stated factor, education, byword for prosperity and the great institutions of immigration where a person is not detained, clinical central London, but in fact it includes a number of the negligence, welfare benefits, employment, debt and some most deprived wards in the country. Westminster citizens areas of housing. As a consequence, more than 500,000 advice bureau is another superb organisation and I had people each year are less likely to receive help. Not only the pleasure of attending its annual meeting a couple of will that have an effect on those people unable to access weeks ago. Other organisations include the North legal aid services, but it will destabilise and possibly Kensington law centre, the migrants resource centre, the destroy such services in many areas and make it extremely Mary Ward centre—that is not in my constituency, but hard for public services to be held to account when they it is an important local organisation—Just for Kids are at fault. Law, to which I will refer in a moment, and many private practices, as well as the Central London law Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): My centre and the Brent private tenants rights group, which hon. Friend makes her case powerfully. The cuts are is just over the border and provides an important service atrociously harsh on civil cases. Nottingham law centre to tenants. in my constituency says that last year it helped 1,300 people avoid housing repossession. I am exceptionally worried Those professionals in the sector provide, for the about the impact on homelessness and the potential for most part, a service to many of the most vulnerable and people to lose their homes. This is important stuff. distressed people in society, and they do so for what is a challenging level of remuneration in a professional context. Ms Buck: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising We hear—sometimes rightly—about the eye-watering that point and I will return in a moment to the issue of sums of money paid in legal aid in some criminal cases. housing and homelessness. I understand that such cases cause public concern, but as in so many areas of public policy, we are being driven Funding for judicial review is retained within the by policy making by anecdote. We need to address legal aid Green Paper. However, in many cases it is not extreme examples and issues, but, overwhelmingly, legal based upon the legal help that allows for an effective aid practitioners are not well remunerated and they do judicial review. I have been told that retaining judicial an excellent job at astoundingly good value to the review but withdrawing so much legal aid is as useful as public purse. having a flight of stairs between the first and second floors of a building when there is nothing between the Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): My hon. Friend ground floor and the first. Judicial review emerges from says that those professionals are not well remunerated. a wider pool of cases and there will be inadequate tests Does she agree that they are not even as well remunerated of the law if legal aid is withdrawn. 191WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 192WH

[Ms Buck] citizens advice bureau to say that it has two part-time caseworkers and it is wondering where its most vulnerable As we know from the Green Paper, eligibility for legal clients will go if that service is cut back in parallel with aid is to be further reduced. Over recent years—this is cutbacks in legal aid. already a trend—the proportion of the population eligible for legal aid on a sliding scale of contributions has Ms Buck: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman fallen from about half of the population to about a for raising that point; it will be one of the issues that I third. The Green Paper further lowers the level at which address. There is an argument in addition to the argument people are asked to contribute from their assets, and about how much we fund legal aid by. There is consensus increases the percentage level of contributions from that the budget cannot expand indefinitely, but there earnings. Moreover, for the first time, those on social are still issues about the speed at which and the manner security benefits should, it is suggested, be subject to a in which legal aid funding is withdrawn and the impact full asset test. Will the Minister write to me and state that that could have on providers. whether the Department has calculated the cost of such an exercise? Taken together, all those measures prompt I think that value for money was also at the heart of the question of whether even those who are potentially the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Is it not the case that entitled to legal aid can afford to take up that entitlement, expenditure on legal aid and advice services does provide and what that will mean for access to justice. value for money, because it ensures that public services and others operate effectively and well, that errors are Members of the public are being asked to insure corrected and that public law is constantly challenged? themselves to cover future legal aid cases. However, It also helps people to redress wrongs and ensures that since those who lose out are, overwhelmingly, low-income the take-up of benefits and other services is done properly. households, it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to find money for a hypothetical eventuality, rather The National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, than for the daily struggle to house, heat and feed among other organisations, convincingly argues that themselves. There is nothing wrong with taking out there is a very poor business case for what the Government insurance in principle—it should be encouraged—but is propose. Taking so much social welfare out of the scope it realistic to ask low-income groups to insure against of legal aid will undermine value for money. It is argued eventualities that are simply not as foreseeable as those that between £2 and £10 is saved for every pound risks that lead people to insure their homes and cars? invested in the legal aid budget. An analysis based on data from the civil and social justice survey and on The loss of legal aid will mean that most, if not all, of Legal Services Commission outcomes data estimates a the 500,000 people affected will lose access to advice saving of £2 for every £1 spent in relation to housing, and representation. That figure will include many of the £3 for every £1 spent on debt advice, £8.80 for every most vulnerable categories of people. The legal aid £1 spent on benefits advice and £7 for every £1 spent in consultation itself acknowledges that in respect of issues relation to employment. That is besides the benefit to such as debt, welfare benefits and education, people the individual; 80% of social welfare legal aid cases with disabilities are likely to be disproportionately affected. record positive outcomes for the clients. For example, 63% of legally aided clients in the sphere of welfare benefits assistance are disabled. It is impossible in a limited time—I want other hon. The excellent briefing produced for this debate by the Members to have an opportunity to contribute to the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux states debate—to pay proper attention to every area of civil that law affected by the proposals, so I shall make just a few remarks on the areas that cause me greatest concern. “alternative sources of advice are simply not available, suitable or accessible for the overwhelming majority of our client group” In relation to family law, no one disputes the value of and mediation or the fact that in cases that go to court, the court action can have an extremely damaging impact on “the voluntary sector and pro bono does not have the capacity to fulfil the need currently met by Legal Aid in terms of the volume the families. However, relying on mediation is not always of people or the specialism required for more complex cases.” an option. It is not always the case that both partners are prepared to go to mediation. Also, it implies that Will the Minister say, either now or later, whether the there is a willingness to compromise and that the Department has carried out a full capacity assessment compromise should be somewhere around the middle of to assure us that voluntary and pro bono facilities are the argument about child welfare, maintenance or whatever. available to fill the gap that will be created by the That ignores the fact that in many instances, one partner proposals in the Green Paper? or the other has behaved excessively badly or is making unrealistic demands; indeed, it encourages them to make Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): In the such demands. context of my hon. Friend’s remarks about the impact of the proposals, does she agree that yet again we are Good and powerful cases have been raised by the seeing a disproportionate impact on women, especially, Legal Aid Practitioners Group, and I shall read the of course, in relation to family cases? details of two into the record as examples. One case study states: Ms Buck: That is absolutely right, and I will deal with “I am advising a client who is seeking contact with his children. family law in a moment. The children’s mother has remarried and has a new child with her husband. She seeks to marginalize our client from the children’s lives, has denied contact, refuses to engage in mediation and has Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I do believe moved to a secret address. The case requires a preliminary application that the legal aid budget in this country is huge in to ascertain the children’s whereabouts and once identified an comparison with those in other European countries, application for contact. Clearly mediation is impossible and without but I have had representations from the New Forest early advice the client will have absolutely no idea how to re-establish 193WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 194WH contact with his children. His options would be to try to find disputes in relation to children who have or who require them through any means available to him which would not be statements of special educational needs. Given that helpful or to give up which would deny the children the right to the latest figures for my borough show that we have have a relationship with their father. With early advice, the 364 children without a school place at this point the application for disclosure would be made by solicitors and once the children’s whereabouts were identified a tactical attempt to school year, the need for representation for parents is negotiate and encourage mediation…would take place. This particular extremely clear. client has some learning difficulties and to navigate the court I shall give a couple of examples of cases, from Just system as a litigant in person would almost certainly be impossible and any attempts made would be hugely time consuming.” for Kids Law’s caseload, which would receive no representation in future. The other case study states: “E…is a highly gifted boy who is on the autistic spectrum. His “I am advising a client. He has 4 children and has shared father was offered a job in New Zealand so the family emigrated residence for all those and is very active in their lives. We have and E…started Year 7 there. Regrettably there was no special helped him in the past with residence issues with the benefit of educational needs provision for him and he was so severely legal aid…He is now facing an application by one of the Mothers bullied that, by August, his parents had withdrawn him from to take his 14 year old daughter to New Zealand where the school and made arrangements for the family to return to the Mother hasa2yearworkcontract. If this is allowed, from seeing UK. They had kept in regular contact with their local authority, his daughter half the week he will be lucky to see her in the however, when they returned in January 2009, there was no place holidays and will not be able to afford air fares…In future this available...After six weeks at home with his mother he was provided client will have to deal with this on his own. This will lead to him with a Personal Tutor for two hours per week. His behaviour was probably giving up on fighting the application.” rapidly deteriorating and he started self harming. He told JfK Even in cases in which domestic violence is not an issue, Law he…wanted to go to school like everyone else and didn’t without legal aid there are real dangers that individuals, want to end up”— particularly those who have difficulty in being sufficiently in a dead-end job. Just For Kids Law made representations articulate or confident to navigate the courts system, to the local authority and, when that was unsuccessful, will lose access to their children. issued urgent judicial review proceedings. After two mediation meetings with the local authority lawyers, he Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The hon. Lady is was eventually offered a place at a specialist autistic making a very powerful case, but given that she has said centre that integrates into a mainstream school. Without that civil, family and social law are bearing the brunt of representation at every stage, it is likely that that child the proposed cuts, I wonder whether she will comment—or would have ended up with no school place and no the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hammersmith provision, with catastrophic consequences for him. (Mr Slaughter), will comment later—on where her party would have made the cuts had it been re-elected. As she The second example states: mentioned, cuts would have been made had Labour “R…was permanently excluded from school in 2006. He has been re-elected. The cuts proposed are less than 20%. If special educational needs and had been receiving specialised criminal law is to be protected, where does she or the support” shadow Minister suggest that the Government make for his behavioural problems, which had been successfully the cuts? The speed and manner of the cuts seem to be managed in reception and year 1, but in year 2 his the main criticism. We would like to see more detail. behaviour worsened. Instead of referring him for an assessment for a statement of special educational needs Ms Buck: As I said, the previous Labour Government or asking for the local authority’s advice the school had already made cuts to the legal aid budget, which permanently excluded him. His mother felt that was were highly controversial. Many hon. Members who are because her relationship with the head teacher had in this Chamber made fierce representations on that broken down. Just For Kids Law advised the mother at point. I have already said that there were areas, particularly the governing body appeal, which she lost. very high cost criminal cases, in which the Government “JfK Law then appealed to the Independent Appeals Panel…and intended to go further. Ministers were also examining made representations that it was not lawful to exclude a child ways in which the civil and social welfare budget could because of the breakdown in relationship between a Head Teacher be protected within the global legal aid budget, because and the mother, the school should have dealt with the problem by it was understood that in many cases, savings in that way of a “managed move” to another school that could meet his area would lead to a false economy. Therefore I will not needs….The IAP agreed with JfK Law’s representations” be drawn into an argument about equivalence of cuts and overturned the permanent exclusion, which is no and into coming out with every figure, because I dispute longer on the child’s record. That is a case about a very the basis of what the hon. Lady has said. vulnerable family. One of my greatest concerns is about the proposed cuts in relation to education. The Government’s intention We have referred to housing and homelessness. The is to take education out of the scope of legal aid. Given Government intend to retain provision in cases of people the often unfulfilled statutory duty on local authorities at risk of imminent homelessness, but, perversely, they to ensure that young people receive an education, that is are taking debt and other areas of financial advice out bound to hit the most vulnerable the hardest. of scope. Those issues are almost always the preliminary problems that lead to homelessness. I am indebted to Just for Kids Law, a specialist organisation in my constituency, for the information that it has provided and for its assistance with a number Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Brighton and Hove of cases that I have referred to it. Last year, Just for is expecting a reduction of 80% in legal aid cases—down Kids Law took 34 cases, with two thirds having a to only 280 cases per year. Although we all agree that satisfactory outcome. These are cases of children without we should make some cuts, does the hon. Lady agree a school place and cases in which there are serious that we need to monitor that level of reduction carefully? 195WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 196WH

Ms Buck: I absolutely agree. I am extremely concerned. years have spiralled and become unsustainable, particularly In other areas of public policy, we are seeing reductions at a time like this. Considering what the hon. Member in housing benefit expenditure and entitlement, which for Westminster North (Ms Buck) has said, however, I are coming in next year. There is, apparently, a rise in feel that the decision has not really been fully thought homelessness. There are major changes in housing policy, through. The impact to local legal services could be some of which were announced yesterday, which will devastating. In my constituency, the changes will mean lead to homeless households being discharged into the that only two legal firms can continue to provide vital, private rented sector, with all the associated risks of high-quality family law legal aid services—previously, it that. Yet, at the same time, the representation and was nine. Those two firms will now be taking on the advice available to people at the most critical stage of work that nine firms undertook formerly, so the effectiveness their path through the housing system is being removed. and speed with which sensitive family issues are dealt I am sure that the consequences of those changes in with will be compromised. policy and the reduction in legal aid representation will We will also lose expertise in what, from my perspective, be catastrophic for highly vulnerable families, many of is one of the most challenging areas of law—that which which include children with disabilities and special needs. deals with divorce and child custody. From a legal aid I predict that the changes will explode the budgets perspective, people from disadvantaged backgrounds associated with local authority responsibilities under will be hardest hit, which will be a challenge in Eastbourne. the Children Act 2004, as many cases will be referred to local authorities. Once again, this is a false economy. I recently met a constituent who was unable to find There are many other things that I would like to say, legal representation in Eastbourne, because, of the two but I will conclude simply by referring back to the remaining firms that would have been able to offer legal argument of the impact of the cuts on providers. Of aid, one was representing her ex-husband and the other course, we have to start from the point of view of the her son. Due to a possible conflict of interest, she had client. The client is the most important, not the provider. to look elsewhere, to either Rye or Brighton, which is a However, if a client cannot access a provider, if there is round trip in excess of 50 miles. That does not sound an advice desert and no one within 50 or 100 miles or a very far, but the constituent, who I know quite well, is reasonable distance for people to afford to get to, then disabled and unable to travel by public transport. She justice is denied to that person. If staff contracts are would have had to travel by taxi; I do not need to tell lost, money withdrawn from a law centre, firm or citizens anyone here that a taxi fare is not an easily affordable advice bureau on the piecemeal basis indicated in the luxury for someone in receipt of disability living allowance. proposals, and services are removed—the hon. Member As well as the threat to legal service provision in my for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) gave a good example—at constituency, I am profoundly concerned that the proposals a time when local authorities are facing record cuts in include the removal of funding for large areas of specialist expenditure, many such services will go under. They will social welfare-related help and guidance. That is often collapse in an unplanned way. There will not be a delivered by local community-based charities, such as coherent pattern of advice services, because no one has BHT Eastbourne Advice and the Eastbourne citizens overall control of ensuring that that happens. advice bureau in my constituency. They complement that specialist help and guidance with a more general Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): I thank my advice service provided by volunteers. There are such hon. Friend for giving way and apologise for my late crucial service providers in every constituency. In attendance; I had dreadful problems with my computer. Eastbourne, those charities risk losing in the region of I received an e-mail from Flintshire CAB, which is very £230,000 to £250,000 per annum of legal aid funding. worried about losing the equivalent of five posts—a total of £170,000. It deals with some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are often the same Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I hear the hon. people who end up coming to see Members of Parliament. Gentleman’s sympathetic comments, but what would he It is worried that the cuts will devastate the area. say to my constituents in the Bargoed area of the Rhymney valley, 375 of whom claim legal aid for welfare Ms Buck: That is absolutely right. I shall now sit benefit issues and 450 of whom stand to lose access to down to listen to examples from, possibly, both sides of legal aid for debt issues? the Chamber. I urge the Minister to ask his colleagues to think again about how the changes are being Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that implemented. The dangers are that they will lead to intervention. Although the overall legal aid budget has advice deserts and reduced access to justice for many spiralled out of control, I have real concerns about the cases—500,000—involving the most vulnerable people. Government’s proposals—they are based on the previous They will lead to the perverse consequence of greater Government’s proposals, which is one of the ironies—for expenditure in many other areas of public services and, changing legal aid. I do have concerns, which I why I am because the providers will not be held to account efficiently here this morning. by lawyers, worse public services. I hope that the Minister will hear not only what I have to say but what other Members have to say, and go back to the Department to Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) ask for an urgent review of the Government’s proposals. (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case, and I agree with some of his points, but does he acknowledge that the previous Government reduced 9.57 am the cost of civil legal aid by 24% over 10 years? We have Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I understand and to disaggregate the civil and criminal cases and concentrate appreciate that there is some merit in the Government’s on where the Government’s cuts are having an effect—on decision to simplify legal aid and that the costs in recent the most vulnerable in our society. 197WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 198WH

Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Lady for that When the Green Paper came out, paragraph 1.2 of intervention. That is a fair comment, and I certainly the summary said: will not dispute the facts of what she says. “The Government strongly believes that access to justice is a I was talking about the upwards of £250,000 that the hallmark of a civil society”, two charities in Eastbourne stand to lose. They use that which is great. The problem is the rest of the Green funding to support more than 1,500 of the town’s most Paper; it starts well, but it is all downhill after that. We vulnerable residents with complex debt, benefit and need to examine a number of issues relating to the housing problems, many of which have been alluded to. Green Paper. I and many others believe that the social welfare help that the Government plan to reduce is very much preventive The background has to be that cuts were already and enabling; it is focused not on generating unnecessary being made in legal aid, and many of us in the Chamber litigation, but on preventing crises by solving complex who were in the previous Parliament were very concerned problems at an early stage. about that. Indeed, we raised those concerns consistently with Ministers, because the cuts were leaving the most marginalised, vulnerable people with no redress whatever Kate Green: Does the hon. Gentleman not also accept through the legal system. That deeply concerns me. that people face clusters of problems? Even if people can still access some legal help, removing some categories The cuts have been accompanied by a series of ill- of legal help altogether will inevitably mean that there informed, unfair media attacks on the entire legal profession will be areas of difficulty where people can no longer and the legal aid system, which have been led by the get the help that they need. Daily Mail, the Daily Express and the Evening Standard. Those newspapers routinely print isolated and outrageous Stephen Lloyd: That is a fair point, and I look forward figures about payments to some barristers, while at no to hearing exactly how the Minister will respond. time looking at the reality of the number of legal aid I recognise that these are difficult economic times and firms that are paid so little that they can no longer that the Ministry of Justice faces incredibly difficult afford to represent anybody and have gone out of budgetary decisions. However, I am concerned that business. In inner-urban areas such as the one that I without a clear alternative for resourcing and supporting represent, which is the eighth poorest part of the whole preventive advice in particular, the proposals will increase country, many people simply cannot get any representation the demands not only on the crisis-related legal advice whatever, because there is no legal aid lawyer to deal services that remain, but on other public services. with them. As I indicated, legal aid cuts have a particular impact Let me quote from a letter dated 1 October 2010—many on housing. Over the past few years, legal aid has colleagues will have seen something similar at various funded BHT Eastbourne Advice’s handling of 800 to times. It says: 900 specialist housing cases per year. That was reduced “URGENT INFORMATION to 530 cases per year for the most recent three-year CLOSURE OF forward contract, which commenced on 15 November. SHEIKH & CO SOLICITORS It is estimated that the current proposals could reduce Non practicing as of Midnight on 30th September 2010” housing advice capacity by 20%, which will have a very detrimental impact on advice provision in my constituency It continues: and many other towns, at a time when such advice will “We were unable to secure viable indemnity insurance despite be in high demand following the implementation of the our best efforts particularly in view of uncertainty surrounding housing benefit reforms. I agree that those reforms are the legal aid contracts and so it means Sheikh & Co cannot necessary, but they will have a knock-on effect. provide legal services any more.” Advice is effective in preventing homelessness, especially This was a busy local practice dealing with a whole if it is given early. The proposals to limit legal aid to range of issues, including housing, immigration and those in imminent threat of repossession flies in the face family and education matters, and its closure left thousands of all the evidence that early intervention and prevention of people with no representation. Their files will be create long-term savings, as well as averting hardship passed on through the appropriate body to another for constituents. solicitor, but that solicitor may go under, and the files will then move on to somebody else and somebody else I urge the Minister to revisit this issue to see whether again. Along the way, they will be lost, which means the remaining funds can be targeted differently to ensure that very poor and vulnerable people will be left without that legal aid—particularly for civil and family law any representation whatever. cases—is more extensively protected. I am proud to represent my constituency in Parliament. 10.4 am I am also proud of Islington law centre, which does fantastic work. When I visited it a couple of weeks ago, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): It is a pleasure the director told me that a to be under your chairpersonship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster “10% cut across the board is being proposed” North (Ms Buck) on securing the debate. in its Legal Services Commission contract funding and When legal aid was first introduced in 1949, the late that Arthur Skeffington said that the law at that time was “we have been cut hard in both housing and employment, where, like the Ritz, in that those who could afford to pay had although we were ranked first in terms of our tender score, we access to it, while those who could not did not. Legal have been given a much smaller contract from mid-November aid was introduced, and it is fundamental to giving than we had previously”. everybody in this country access to justice. The director added that that will mean 199WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 200WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] that is where the money can be made and where they can get work. They do not do legal aid because there is “250 less employment clients per annum that we can help, and 185 not enough money around to do it with. There are not less housing clients. I expect the total cut next year to be around enough companies doing legal aid work. So we have £130,000,” amazing levels of representation for well-off people, in which is more than two full-time equivalent caseworkers. commercial or corporate cases, but we do not have the That is a busy law centre, which is doing its best. Such same availability for criminal, housing, immigration or events could be replicated all over the country at hard- family cases. working law centres. There is a lot that I could say, but I take your earlier When the Minister replies, I hope that he will recognise hint, Mrs Riordan—you do not want me to go on too the value of law centres and the need to give them long. It was very subtly put, if I may say so. I have two support and funding. quick points that I want to make. The idea of separating family law cases so that legal aid will be given if violence Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab) rose— is involved, but not if there is no violence, is utterly absurd. I am sure that we have all seen how families can Jeremy Corbyn: I also hope that he will recognise implode under many pressures. The degeneration of a that, without law centres and legal aid practices at relationship into a battle and a court case can get very solicitors, many of our most vulnerable constituents nasty. Mediation does not always work—of course we will simply go without any access to justice whatever. all want it to, but it does not always. That can degenerate into violence. If sensible, effective legal advice is available Several hon. Members rose— at a much earlier stage, much of that degeneration into something far worse can be prevented. Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. I intend to I am pleased that the Green Paper specifically excludes start the winding-up speeches at 10.40 am, and at least any cut in representation for asylum cases. I welcome six other Members want to speak. If they can keep their that and pay tribute to the Minister for it. Those who remarks brief, I will get everybody in. I call Robert face deportation in asylum cases, possibly with the Buckland. prospect of death or torture on their return to where they have come from, deserve legal aid. I absolutely Jeremy Corbyn: Actually, Mrs Riordan, I was giving defend that, and I am sure—or at least hope—that way to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham every hon. Member in the Chamber would too. (Stephen Timms). I was not concluding my contribution. However, in immigration cases, which are often very If you want me to conclude, I suppose I must, but I complicated, legal aid is limited; it is available for dealing would be grateful if you gave me just a bit more time. with detention, but not for the case itself. A family who are put in detention—quite wrongly, in my view, if Stephen Timms: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and children are involved—can get legal aid to try to get out to you, Mrs Riordan. of detention, but not to deal with the burden of the I wanted to pick up my hon. Friend’s point about case. That seems a non sequitur; either we support advice services. I wonder whether it struck him, as it immigration cases or we do not. I hope that the Minister struck me, that the Green Paper suggests that costly will recognise that the injustices surrounding that state legal advice can be substituted with much less costly of affairs, in particular with regard to applications voluntary advice services. The problem is—and the under articles 6 and 8 of the European convention on author of the Green Paper does not seem to realise human rights, are very important and that such cases it—that most such voluntary services are themselves deserve legal aid. funded by legal aid, and that that funding will go if the The late Sir Henry Hodge, who was a judge at the proposals are implemented. immigration appeal tribunal, constantly made references to the Legal Services Commission wanting sufficient Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend makes a powerful resources to make representation available. An immigration point, which is true. Legal aid funding goes through law appeal where there is no representation for the applicant, centres, Citizens Advice and all kinds of other advice but there is representation for the Home Office, is agencies, which will be cut. In any event, none of the unbelievably, blatantly and obviously unfair. It is not a advice services’ funding is ring-fenced in local authority credible way of doing things. terms. I have done a head-count audit of my borough, and there is probably less one-to-one advice available I urge the Minister to think again, seriously, about than there was 25 years ago. I suspect that colleagues those aspects of the matter, and to remember the principle could tell similar stories. We need fair access to justice. of access to justice for all. That will not be possible if the cuts go through. The Law Society briefing for the debate is very good. It notes: “The cuts in scope and eligibility for civil legal aid will mean 10.14 am that many fewer people will be able to bring cases to court”. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am It continues by pointing out that grateful to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy “solicitors will either find other areas of work or ‘cherry pick’ Corbyn) for truncating his remarks. I shall follow his cases”. example and be as brief as I can. I should declare an We have many brilliant law students in this country—many interest: I was a criminal legal aid barrister for nearly brilliant young people who want to go into law and do 20 years, and am still in receipt of some payments for their very best. They often end up, whether they want to work done before the election. However, my remarks or not, doing property and commercial law, because today are centred on what other hon. Members have 201WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 202WH discussed in the context of the reduction of the ambit The matter of clinical negligence in this context is of civil legal aid: community legal service funding for often overlooked. There will be some cases of great work by a number of providers, including law centres. complexity, such as where several different causes have In Swindon, the Wiltshire law centre does excellent led to the condition of the litigant—who will often be work and provides advice for people with debt, housing very vulnerable and ill, even at the time of litigation. and welfare benefit problems. I shall not repeat the That requires a large amount of work and costly medical points that other hon. Members have made. They are expert evidence. It would be a brave set of solicitors that right about the important saving that can be made by took on cases of such complexity on a no win, no fee giving early advice and help to people on welfare benefits. basis. I ask that at the margins that aspect of the Green My remarks are focused on the detail of the helpful Paper be looked at carefully. table towards the back of the Green Paper. I end on this note: a lot has been said about legal help I want to preface my remarks about the Green Paper and representation for debt matters where someone’s by saying that I hope it will be the last such consultation home is at immediate risk. I simply ask, what does that for a considerable time. The Lord Chancellor was right mean? Does it mean immediate risk when possession to note with some despair that there have been more proceedings have been commenced? Does it mean than 30 consultations about legal aid since 2006. It led immediate risk at an earlier stage, when perhaps the to practitioners, including me, getting our heads in a householder has had a set of letters relating to unpaid spin, when it seemed that almost month by month the debt and is, therefore, greatly concerned? There are a lot previous Government—or the Legal Services Commission, of words used, but frankly not carefully enough. I to be more precise, because that was of course an arm’s accept that this is Green Paper stage, but I ask for much length body, though it is now to come back into the more clarity when it comes to assessing the precise Ministry of Justice—issued consultations on legal aid. ambit of scope. As a former member of a funding We do not want permanent revolution. That has caused review committee for the Legal Services Commission, I providers a lot of problems, and has led to some of the can say that these criteria are applied very carefully uncertainty about sources of work that the hon. Member indeed. They have to be right. for Islington North raised. The table at the back of the Often for a practitioner, such as those who work in Green Paper is helpful, but in some cases it is unclear. I the Wiltshire law centre, a case will present itself, which hope that the Government will take on board what is at first blush will appear to be one type of problem, but said today, and the written evidence that will be submitted will transmogrify into another, or a whole different by 14 February. range of problems. Therefore, questions of scope are I want first to discuss family legal aid and what is not just academic; they are very important for solicitors called the domestic violence test. There is no unified and practitioners when assessing whether cases will definition of what is meant by “domestic violence”. come within or without the scope of legal aid. I urge the Some might say that they know it when they see it, but Minister to take on board hon. Members’ comments questions arise about what the term means. Does it just today, and to ask his colleagues to look carefully at the mean physical violence where there is injury? I submit ambit of these proposals and to refine them in a way that that would be far too narrow a test. Does it just that helps not only litigators and solicitors, but, most involve violence between spouses or partners, or does it important, those in greatest need. include violence against children of the family, or in their presence? All those questions need to be answered. 10.21 am I have dealt with domestic violence cases for many years, and they take many forms. It is not just a question Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): of physical violence. Often there is a course of conduct I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster involving a mental process and psychological damage North (Ms Buck) on securing this important debate. to a partner. I should like clarity about the meaning of The changes and cuts proposed in the Government’s the term “domestic violence” by the time the White legal aid Green Paper are of great concern across the Paper is issued. country, as we have heard this morning, but in particular in areas such as Wolverhampton, where there are high To deal briefly with education, I noted with concern levels of deprivation. The only recourse to justice for the suggestion that all education cases would be taken people who are deprived and vulnerable is through the out of scope. We must not ignore the fact that soon the legal aid budget. Department for Education will produce its own Green Paper on special educational needs. I know that Ministers I would like to make two brief points. First, the legal intend to look carefully at reform of the current system aid system was instigated by the post-war Labour of tribunals, and the adversarial system that is so often Government at a time of national deficit, and hot on a barrier to parents and children with special educational the heels of setting up the NHS. The legal aid system needs. That is welcome news, and I hope that the Green has become a pillar of the welfare state. If these Green Paper will contain a commitment to radical reform of Paper proposals go forward, that pillar will be put at the system, so that parents do not feel they must always risk. We should not forget that before 1949 the only fight for their children’s rights with respect to special people able to access justice in our country were those educational needs. However, if that is not what happens, who could afford it. I do not want to go back to that. and the Government do not intend to reform the system Secondly, I want to put on record my tremendous for SEN provision, legal representation should not be respect for the professionalism and work of citizens taken out of scope—particularly at the upper tier tribunal advice bureaux up and down the country, but in particular level, where there is a lot of law and there are a lot of in Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton CAB deals with lawyers; that is a daunting prospect for any parent of a 14,000 inquiries every year, which is astonishing. Of child with SEN. those, 1,700 are legal aid inquiries. It is widely recognised 203WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 204WH

[Emma Reynolds] has a massive sum to pay back, though the matter was not their fault. The state has responsibility to such by others in the region that Wolverhampton CAB is a people. beacon of best practice. Last year, it won the outstanding black country business of the year award, voted for by Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Is my the black country chamber of commerce, for doubling hon. Friend as shocked as I was to hear from Nottingham its work load with the same resources. law centre that 42% of the clients’ problems it helps to solve are caused by administrative or procedural errors Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): As in by Departments or local authorities? Does she share my Wolverhampton, in Swansea the CAB does a marvellous concern that many of those constituents who had help job. Its contract for legal aid for debt and welfare was have poor levels of education and that some struggle terminated on 14 November and since then no one has with literacy? Without assistance from a law centre, had that contract. There has been a signal that it might they will not be able to resolve those problems. get it again. Is it not appalling that there should be a hole in the budget flow, a change of provider and great uncertainty among very vulnerable groups? Does my Emma Reynolds: I could not agree more with my hon. hon. Friend share my concern about financial provision Friend. That goes to the heart of the argument. These and continuity for the future for the CAB? cuts will affect the most vulnerable in our society; yet another example of Government cuts hitting the poorest Emma Reynolds: I could not have put it better myself. hardest. There are great concerns in the CAB in Wolverhampton. I want to refer to taking debt out of the legal aid It is facing a cut not only in legal aid, but in the budget. The Government have recognised in the Green financial inclusion fund, to which I will refer briefly Paper that many of the people who are mired in debt later. are ill or disabled, and that debt often afflicts the most I want to come on to the issue of the day. I know a lot vulnerable in society. Yet they are still proceeding to of hon. Members are concerned about the cost of the introduce proposals and measures that will deny those legal aid budget. Let us not forget that the starting point people access to legal advice and representation. for our debate today, as recognised in the Government’s I will briefly mention something I raised in the House Green Paper, is that half a million people in our country last week. I asked the Leader of the House what was get help from the legal aid budget. That is a sign of a going to happen to the financial inclusion fund, which civilised country; it is something to be proud of, not to is a great source of help for people with debt problems. be attacked or ashamed of. Although we obviously have In Wolverhampton, hundreds of people are helped to look at the costs, I remind colleagues of my earlier every year by this fund. I was given wise counsel by the point: the previous Government were looking at these Leader of the House that I should raise the issue this issues. In the past 10 years, there was a reduction in real morning. He was sure that the Minister would give me terms in civil legal aid of 24%. Capping the fees paid to an answer. I know that the matter is being administered solicitors and barristers was also being considered, as by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills well as getting better value for money for the taxpayer and the Treasury, but I urge the Minister to give clarity by looking at how contracts were awarded and seeking on whether the fund is to go ahead beyond March. economies of scale. That sort of rationalisation is a far Again, the uncertainty that my hon. Friends have raised cry from removing wholesale entire categories of legal applies and it is not helpful. aid from the budget. For example, family law, which other hon. Members have mentioned, welfare benefits, I do not wish to be too long because I know that debt, housing and education. other colleagues want to get in. I want to add that, apart I want to refer specifically to withdrawing legal aid in from failing the test of social justice, these proposals cases of welfare benefits. Around 80% of the social also fail on a cost-benefit analysis. welfare legal aid cases dealt with by the CAB record My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North positive outcomes for the individual involved. That eloquently explained that the cuts will be a false economy goes to show that there are issues there. When the in many areas. The National Association of Citizens Government are bringing forward deep and far-reaching Advice Bureaux published a business case for legal aid welfare reforms—I do not believe that they should—it this year. It said that for every pound of legal aid spent is precisely the wrong time to be taking this area completely on housing advice, the state saves £2.34, and for every out of the scope of legal aid. pound spent on debt advice, the state saves £2.98. It also stated that on welfare benefit advice, the state saves Kate Green: Does my hon. Friend agree that the poor £8.80, and that on employment advice, it could save quality of decision making in the social security system £7.13. also creates an increased need for legal aid? We all Have the Government looked properly at the savings naturally hope that that level of decision making can be that early intervention makes possible? Have they done improved, and I hope that the Government will give a proper cost-benefit analysis of the costs of their that attention. In the meantime, it is important for proposals for public services down the line? I fear that people to have that protection, particularly when we this is short sighted, and that the Government are look at the high rate of successful appeals against seeking short-term savings that will have significant decisions on employment and support allowance. costs later. Other Members have made the same point. Emma Reynolds: I could not agree more. Members of The other thing that worries me is that the Government all parties know that such examples come up time and say in the Green Paper that other alternatives will again in their surgeries. The other day someone came to be available. The document then outlines what those my surgery who had been overpaid benefits and now alternatives might be. I know that my hon. Friend the 205WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 206WH

Member for Westminster North has already mentioned that is the sort of family that we want, and whether that this, but it is telling: NACAB says that the overwhelming is consistent with an undertaking to put families at the majority of its client group will not be able to access the centre of British life? alternatives identified in the Green Paper. Margot James: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does my hon. way? Friend agree that although one alternative, the expansion of telephone advice, is welcome—I agree that not enough telephone information available—it is not suitable for Mr Lammy: I will not give way, as there is so little the most vulnerable, particularly those in debt, as many time. who use mobile phones cut themselves off in order to It cannot be right that people will get a practitioner save money? only if they already have an injunction. Are we really saying that a woman should pitch up to court on her Emma Reynolds: I could not agree more. There is no own if she is concerned about her children having substitute for face-to-face counselling and advice. As contact with her husband, who may be violent? Is it my hon. Friend rightly states, the cuts mean that the right that she should have to make her way on her own, only recourse for vulnerable people will be some sort of in such vulnerable contexts, without access to legal telephone system, but they may not be comfortable with advice? Are we really saying that when families are in it and might not be able to afford it. dispute—perhaps one parent wants to take a child The proposals in the Green Paper will make the poor abroad—the parent fighting that decision should have poorer and the most vulnerable more vulnerable. The to find access to justice on their own and without cuts should fall elsewhere. There are other ways to sufficient funds? reform the legal aid budget, and the Government should Are we saying—I ask as the Member of Parliament think again. in whose constituency the baby P case occurred—to the many thousands of families affected by care proceedings that ultimately end in adoption, which changes the legal 10.32 am nature of the child’s relationship with its parents, that Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I thank my they cannot have legal aid to fight it or challenge it in hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) court if they are concerned about losing their children? for initiating this incredibly important debate, which That cannot be right. That is not the kind of society cuts to the heart of the kind of society that we want to that we want. live in. It is important for the House to record that we The policy is not consistent with the big society. do not want to go back to the time when this work was Yesterday we saw the announcement of cuts of up to being done by volunteers. We talk about access to 40% in local government budgets. That will decimate justice, but at its heart is social justice and the kind of much of the voluntary sector that the Ministry of society that we seek. I believe that we should live in a Justice says people should rely upon. How can that be society where the most vulnerable have access to justice. part of the big society? What will happen with welfare I speak as a former Minister with responsibility for benefit cuts, given that many of the groups that support legal aid. If we go back to the earlier part of the last the most vulnerable—those with mental health problems, decade, before the 30 consultations that we heard of, I immigrants and those who have been without work for was considering fixed fees and new ways of contracting, a considerable time—will find support withdrawn at but that is a long, long way from the Green Paper. this time of profound change? How can that be right? I remind the House of what the Prime Minister said In relation to immigration, the churches consistently in the run-up to the election about family policies. He remind the state about its responsibility. We have pared said that he wanted to make Britain the most family-friendly back so much on legal advice about immigration and country in Europe. Only a few days ago, he said: asylum matters that lawyers specialising in this area “The seeds of so many problems, as well as success stories, are now help the system; they help constituents provide sown in the early years. Family is where people learn to be good information to the bureaucracy—to the court system—that citizens, to take responsibility, to live in harmony with others. is easy to understand, which makes justice quicker. This Families are the building blocks of a strong, cohesive society.” Green Paper will drive those people underground; it will He cannot make such pronouncements and then run a drive them into ghettos where they cannot be seen or coach and horses through family life in constituencies found, as they will not have the right documents. That is throughout the country. the sort of thing that we see in other parts of continental Europe. We do not want that in this country. The services that family practitioners provide for vulnerable families facing breakdown and for people The Green Paper is particularly worrying. It is possible having to decide who should have contact and how it is to pass it off as unimportant, but we cannot call ourselves to be arranged, are essential in modern society. If we a civilised country unless we provide adequate legal aid. take that advice away, except in cases of domestic The previous Government stabilised legal aid. In that violence, we will see chaos. We will see people presenting context, I contend that enough is enough. Now is the at court as litigants in person. When those cases come time to stand up and say what civilised really means. It to the county court, people will not be receiving advice is certainly not the time to walk alongside hypocrisy by from the court clerks or the judges; they will simply get suggesting that we can support families, that we can a form to fill in. They will be on their own. What will have a big society, that we can be fair in a civilised happen? Families, but mostly women, will not get that democracy and then run a coach and horses through advice. I ask the Minister to think hard about whether the only access to justice that vulnerable people need. 207WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 208WH

10.39 am That is the first statistic. What types of people are we talking about? Many examples of them have been cited Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): It is a this morning, including parents going to special educational great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this needs tribunals; tenants facing problems of harassment morning, Mrs Riordan, and to be opposite the Solicitor- or disrepair; disabled people whose welfare benefits General. It has been a privilege to listen to so many have been cut; and people who have been unfairly well-informed speakers from both sides. Although it dismissed. In the vision section—I am sure that no irony invidious to pick out people, I will do so by saying that was intended—of the business plan for the Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy it says the aim of the programmes is to have a legal aid Corbyn) and the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr system Buckland) showed their decades of experience in dealing “that supports those at greatest risk, not those who are most with such matters. I hope that the Minister will listen to litigious.” them and to other contributions that are made during Rather than being the “most litigious”, I see such the consultation process, and realise that mistakes have people as being the most vulnerable in society. been made in the proposals to cut legal aid. When the Lord Chancellor made his statement to the I pay tribute, too, to my hon. Friend the Member for House on 15 November, he talked about the back-to-basics Westminster North (Ms Buck), who is standing down principle of the Green Paper. This is very basic indeed. as Chair of the all-party group on legal aid, for her A truer account was given in the Sunday Telegraph the unrivalled record in pursuing such matters and for day before—if one wants the fullest account of Government securing the debate today. Like her, I will mention my policy, one should always look in the papers the day not-for-profit agencies. For the past 20 years, I have had before the statement is made to the House. The Sunday the pleasure of serving on the management committee Telegraph, which is no great friend of legal aid, said: of Hammersmith and Fulham community law centre, which does a fantastic job. Threshold housing advice “Legal Aid for civil cases will all but disappear.” and the Shepherds Bush advice centre were also excellent I do not think that that is an exaggeration. There are to but were closed this year because of the withdrawal of be cuts of 23% in the Ministry of Justice, which is one local authority funding. The law centre, too, has lost all of the highest cuts of any Department, and a cut of a its local authority funding and is therefore under threat. third in the civil legal aid budget and a 42% projected I am talking about a pattern that is all too familiar. fall in the income of legal aid practitioners. The impact assessment that goes with the Green Paper says that The practitioners of legal aid, many of whom are there will be a cut of up to 92% in the legal aid funding here today, will be among the most astute and trenchant for the not-for-profit sector. critics of all Governments when it comes to supporting the service. Even they would concede that Labour How can the Minister defend, or explain, cuts of that Governments, over the 60 years since the service was order, which effectively wipe out the not-for-profit sector? introduced, have—perhaps by taking two steps forward Effectively, there will be a 15% cut in the CAB’s funding. and one step back at times—increased the scope and For law centres, there could be a cut of up to 50%. eligibility of legal aid. Having said that, and, to save the Furthermore, as my hon. Friend the Member for legs of any Members on the Government Benches who Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) pointed want to stand up and read the Whips’ briefing about out, the financial inclusion fund faces an uncertain what we would cut, I shall add, “Yes, we were in a future. What is the future of that fund in the new period of retrenchment and yes, there would have been financial year, because it alone provides 10% of CAB cuts.” funding? Moreover, it was praised by the National Audit Office very recently as providing good value for Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con) rose— money and a high quality service. I do not have time to go through each area of practice. Mr Slaughter: I will not give way because there is only I am very grateful—and I am sure that the Minister a short time left. There would have been cuts under a is—for the briefings that have been provided by Shelter Labour Government. In some respects, we would have on housing, the Special Educational Consortium and made cuts to private family law, although we should many others because they highlight the effect that these look again at the definition of domestic violence, as the cuts will have on issues such as disrepair, allocations hon. Member for South Swindon said. We would, I and the challenging of rogue landlords. The SEC’s think, have taken a much more forensic look at criminal briefing gets rid of the idea that it is a litigious organisation legal aid, which has just been brushed over. However, or that it is intent on making mischief and going to we would not have made cuts to social welfare legal aid. court for no reason. It states that I pay tribute here to Lord Bach who, over a period of “most parents win their appeals (82%) once they reach the years as Minister, supported, defended and spoke out Tribunal itself, and in 30% of registered appeals the local authority for social welfare law, and, as a Government, we did a concedes before the case reaches Tribunal stage.” very good job in protecting it and we would have gone That is very much the case as regards clinical negligence on protecting it. Given the short time that we have to as well. We must look at the defendants in many of debate this subject, I shall devote my remaining comments these cases and consider why they are fighting them. A to that area and follow the lead given by Members highly respected practice of clinical negligence solicitors speaking today. told me that once legal aid is withdrawn, it will not The briefing from the citizens advice bureau states be economic for it to take cases in which damages will that be less than £100,000. “proposals to exclude most social welfare law issues from scope In the few moments that I have left, let me run will mean over half a million fewer people getting help every through a few of the practical problems that the year”. Government have not addressed when they put forward 209WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 210WH their glib response to making cuts in this area of civil than I was—will realise that this change will be a legal aid. Some 10 problems have occurred to me over nightmare for the judicial and court system. the course of 10 minutes. Will other agencies pick up Those are only a few of the issues that need to be the cases that will no longer be covered by legal aid? raised. I hope that the Solicitor-General can respond to The Government say that the Child Poverty Action many of those points and if he cannot do so, I hope that Group, Age UK, Shelter and the Disability Alliance he will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster will, but have they been approached and what have they North and to other Members who have taken part in said in response? We have been told about other funding this debate. streams. I began my remarks by talking about what had This is only the beginning of the debate on legal aid; happened in my own constituency and that picture is the debate will continue until the end of the consultation repeated all over the country. Other funding streams period, in the first instance. However, I hope that the have already been cut. Law centres are surviving on Government realise that there are serious issues that funding from the Legal Services Commission, because have not been properly addressed in the Green Paper local authority funding has already been cut. and they need to be addressed if we are to have a Several Members have explained that such matters continuing civil legal aid system in this country. are complex and often inter-related. A debt problem often arises because there has been a benefit or employment problem. Tackling one but not the other is not an 10.51 am option. What about the economic viability of the not- The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier): I for-profit sector? Is it feasible for the Government to congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster North make swingeing cuts but cherrypick the parts that will (Ms Buck) on introducing this most important subject remain? I do not believe that it is, or that many law to Westminster Hall this morning. As the hon. Member centres or private firms will survive under such a situation. for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) has said, she is the The issues of self-representation have been raised by founder and chair of the all-party group on legal aid Ministers in regard to this matter. In response to a and I am sorry to hear that she is stepping down from parliamentary question from my hon. Friend the Member being chair of that group. However, I hope that she will for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), the Minister continue to take a close interest in this area of public with responsibility for legal aid said: policy. “In most cases individuals will be able to”— I am speaking in the absence of the Under-Secretary this is talking about welfare benefits— of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), but I think that it is fair to “prepare their appeal to the First-Tier (Social Security and Child say that legal aid is an acutely difficult area of public Support) Tribunal without formal legal assistance.”—[Official Report, 22 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 115W.] policy. Everyone who has spoken today—those who have spoken directly and those, such as my hon. Friend I am afraid that the Government are living in cloud the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who have cuckoo land, and their own figures do not support that intervened—approached the debate with no sense of claim. Some 40% of cases going to incapacity benefit political malice. appeals are successful with no representation and 67% are successful with representation. One of the solicitors I think that in all our constituencies we find areas firms that briefed us in preparation for this debate said where there is a huge need for legal assistance; both that it had an 82% success rate in challenging employment legal advice and legal representation. My reply to this support allowance cases, as against a national average debate will be incomplete and will not come with the of 40% where there is no representations. knowledge that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State would have brought to it, since I have taken on The gateway has been mentioned. There is nothing this—I was going to say “case”—reply for the Government wrong with telephone advice, but it cannot take the from another Department, which is normally a rather place of advice that is provided in person. With telephone non-speaking Department. advice, documents cannot be shown and people who Nevertheless, I hope that hon. Members will understand have learning or language difficulties simply cannot use that we are at the very beginning of the consultation the telephone for that service. process, which will end in February, as the hon. Member Vulnerable people are not considered in this Green for Hammersmith said. So I urge all those who have Paper. Unlike in the Bradley report in 2009, which dealt spoken in the debate and all those who have listened to with people with learning difficulties and mental health it to participate in the consultation process. I also urge difficulties in the criminal law system, no regard seems all those who have contacts with others outside Westminster to have been given to those people in the Green Paper. Hall to encourage them to participate in the process, Little regard has been given to the equality impact too. It is a deliberately lengthy consultation process, so assessment, as demonstrated by the figures given by my that the Government can receive the benefit of the hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North. The advice and the experience of those who know a great eligibility criteria are so restrictive that very few people deal more about the matter than I do, and who provide will get any access to free advice in this sector at all. The advice and assistance. cost issues have also been raised, including the fact that The hon. Member for Westminster North and many this change is, in effect, a false economy that will cost other Members have today praised—quite properly and more in the long run than it saves. justly—the work of their citizens advice bureaux and Another point that has not been raised yet is the fact not-for-profit advice providers in their constituencies. that courts and tribunals will be clogged by litigants One does not have to represent a constituency such as appearing in person and legal practitioners—the Solicitor- those of the hon. Lady or the right hon. Member for General was a legal practitioner for many more years Tottenham (Mr Lammy) that, on the face of it, is 211WH Legal aid14 DECEMBER 2010 Legal aid 212WH

[The Solicitor-General] That is not a complete answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question, but I will throw back to him, as a challenged economically and socially to know the former Treasury Minister, a question: where do we find importance of those providers. One can represent a the money at a time when we are spending £120 million constituency such as mine that, on the face of it, appears a day on interest alone? We have to make difficult to be prosperous but that has pockets of deprivation choices. and great need for social welfare. I accept that none of the answers that the Government Guto Bebb: I would like to associate myself with come up with during this period will provide anybody many of the comments that have been made, especially with complete satisfaction. Nobody will leave this debate those of my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon and go home for Christmas dancing in the streets about (Mr Buckland). However, one particular issue that concerns what I have said. However, we have to be realistic and me as the MP for a very rural constituency is the real face the hard choices that the previous Government possibility that we will end up with the hinterland of my have left us. constituency of Aberconwy not having any legal aid representation whatsoever, with people having to make Ms Buck: I thank the Solicitor-General for giving round trips of 40, 50 or 60 miles to access support. Will way. I was in error in my introduction to the debate in my concern be addressed by the Ministry of Justice? not welcoming him, given that he has graciously stepped in to cover the Minister whose area of responsibility The Solicitor-General: I am sure that the Under-Secretary legal aid is, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). Huntingdon, will ensure that the Ministry of Justice addresses those points and I am certain that my hon. I would just like to ask the Solicitor-General to Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) will ensure, when he passes the message about this debate want to participate in the consultation process. on to the Under-Secretary of State, that he says that I would like an answer to one of the questions that I Another point that occurred to me as I listened to the posed. The assumption underlying the Green Paper is debate is that none of the arguments that I heard this that there is some mythical capacity in the voluntary morning is new. Indeed, I was making some of them and pro bono sector to deal with the areas of service myself between 1997 and 1999 as the Opposition where legal aid will be withdrawn. If we accept that spokesperson for the Lord Chancellor’s Department, there are cuts that will have a major impact on services, when Geoff Hoon was the junior Minister dealing with does the Solicitor-General agree that we have to be this area of public policy. He was introducing proposals honest about the implications of those cuts and not that turned into the so-called Access to Justice Act effectively massage them away by saying that, somehow, 1999. At the time, I suggested to him that those proposals somebody mythical will pick all this up? What estimate would have had Attlee spinning in his grave. have the Government made of that capacity? However, to be in government is to have to make decisions and choices. The main factor that we have to The Solicitor-General: The Government have address at the moment is the economic difficulties that commissioned an impact assessment, which I believe the national budget faces. Every day, we are paying was published at the same time as the Green Paper. £120 million in interest payments alone. Would it not be However, let me do a deal with the hon. Lady. First, of better if we could spend that money on legal advice and course I accept that we are facing difficult choices and I representation? However, we have to make choices and I do not shrink from them. Secondly, however, does she do not think that the hon. Member for Westminster accept my point that not every problem in life that our North ducked that issue. In essence, she said that she constituents face and that we encounter as constituency accepts that choices have to be made, and that reductions MPs has to be dealt with by a lawyer? Not every in public expenditure have to be made. It is the pace problem—be it debt, housing, family-related or some with which and the areas where the cuts are made that other area of dispute—has to be tackled by a lawyer. she finds controversial. We need to refocus our attention to find solutions. Stephen Timms: The Solicitor-General is right to praise I do not shrink from saying that this is a difficult the work of citizens advice bureaux. However, the National area, or from saying that sometimes the state will have Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux says that at the to provide legal assistance. However, we have to narrow moment, a quarter of its funding nationally comes from the scope or ambit of the taxpayers’ responsibility for legal aid. That funding will be entirely lost if these providing legal advice and legal representation. That proposals go through unamended. Are the Government does not mean that others in other parts of the community looking at an alternative way of funding welfare advice cannot come forward and provide the assistance that, as services across the country? has been so clearly indicated by other Members, is so The Solicitor-General: I want to make two points. desperately needed. First—yes, of course the Government are doing so, and I am sorry that this type of debate really requires that is the point of the consultation. I hope that the rather longer time than we have had today. Nevertheless, right hon. Gentleman will participate in that consultation. I hope that the hon. Lady will take the debate outside Secondly, citizens advice bureaux are funded not just by into the wider community, so that the Government can central Government, but by other funding streams. have the benefit of hearing her views and those of her Some are funded by as many as 15 funding streams. colleagues between now and next February. 213WH 14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 214WH

Intensive Dairy Farming To a large extent, that is an issue for another day and possibly even for another place, but it is not going away 11.1 am and it lies, in one sense, at the heart of this debate. It provides the reason why dairy farmers in particular Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): have been forced to the brink, some of them into I am very grateful to have been granted this important insolvency. It also provides the reason for why we are debate on an issue that has not thus far spent too much now seeing the first proposals for the sort of dairy time in the headlines, but which is fundamental to the farming industry that I know fills many ordinary people way of life of many of my constituents. Today’s attendance and many traditional dairy farmers with horror. Just at demonstrates the great interest that the farming community the moment when the British farmer is producing the and people who live in rural Britain have in the subject. food that the British consumer wishes to buy, in the way It is a great pleasure and an added bonus, Mrs Riordan, the consumer wants it, a recession and continued pressure that the debate should come under your chairmanship; on prices are forcing the dairy farming community to that makes this, my first Westminster Hall debate, a consider production mechanisms that give rise to grave privilege rather than the ordeal that it might otherwise concerns for animal welfare, local communities and the have been. environment more generally. I shall begin in perhaps something of an odd place, It is often said by people in towns who have no real by recording what the debate is not about. It is not knowledge of how we live in rural Britain, that farmers about—at least, not specifically about—the super-dairy do not care about the environment or about their animals. that developers wish to land in Nocton in my constituency, That argument is as wrong as it is offensive. In my in close proximity to a number of other villages: Branston, experience, farmers care more about the environment Dunston, Potterhanworth and Metheringham, to name and their animals than any other section of society but four. Now that the planning application has been does, but they have families to support, which is why in validated, that issue will be properly considered in due any debate about how we are going to produce our food course by North Kesteven district council. Nor is the and our milk in the 21st century, we need to recognise debate about the planning process itself, at least not at that whatever measures are introduced and whatever this stage. Planning matters are rightly devolved to local decisions are taken, farmers have to be paid a proper government, where they are best dealt with, and this price for the food they produce. Government have made it clear that that arrangement will continue and be extended, which is to be welcomed. If that were already happening with the dairy industry, we would not be having this debate today. If just a few What the debate is about—and I am pleased that extra pence were paid by consumers for the milk that Members have, for the first time, the opportunity properly graces our breakfast tables and tops our interminable to consider the issues surrounding proposals such as the mugs of tea, the British dairy industry would not need one for Nocton—is the question of how we should go to consider undergoing the form of fundamental change about producing what has been one of the staples of a that proposals such as those for the super-dairy at balanced diet since mankind began to farm animals for Nocton involve. his own use. It is also a debate about what is left, and about what should be the future of the British dairy I hope that the Members who have come to today’s industry after the 13 years of poverty for dairy farmers debate will join me in the Chamber on 12 January when and their families under the previous Government. I I seek the House’s permission to introduce a Bill on the hope that the Minister is now able to tell us that that is super-dairies and the issue of whether farmers receive a being brought to an end. fair price for their milk. Those two issues are indisputably The simple fact of the matter, and indeed the starting and irrevocably intertwined. point for any debate about the future of the dairy My particular concern is that the opening of intensive industry, is that dairy farming in this country has been dairy farming units across the United Kingdom would in crisis for well over a decade. It has been in crisis not inevitably drive more small dairy farmers out of the merely because central Government previously showed market. The cows that they keep, with which every no real interest in British farming, but because of the schoolchild in this country is familiar from an early age, power of the supermarkets and the other bulk purchasers would effectively be replaced by extraordinarily high-yield to drive down prices, which they have done remorselessly animals, bred and milked in an intensive setting and and single-mindedly for far too long, without having with statistically higher occurrences of welfare problems. their wings clipped. It is absolutely clear that the public would not support I know that the Minister intends to do something that if they knew about it and if they turned their mind about that. The power of the supermarkets and the to the question of how they wished their milk to be large purchasers might be good for consumers in the produced. short term, but it has not been good for farmers—nor, I The Minister will know that a recent Ipsos MORI suspect, is it beneficial for producers or consumers in poll showed that 61% of the British public would not the long term. It has driven down the price of commodities, knowingly buy milk from mega-dairies. That is undoubtedly including milk, to levels where it has become difficult, if why many supermarkets have publicly expressed negative not impossible, for British farmers to make a living or views about milk produced in that way, and have indicated compete with producers across the world. that there is, as far as they are concerned, no market for Those producers—and, most importantly, comparable milk produced in super-dairies. farmers in other European Union countries—have a What, one is driven to ask rhetorically, is the point of lower cost base than their British counterparts, principally these intensive dairy farming operations? What is the because they are unaffected by the gold-plating of the point of British dairy farming going in that direction? If plethora of red tape emanating from Brussels that has the British public and the British supermarkets are not stymied the farming industry in this country. going to buy the milk, it will have to go overseas, with 215WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 216WH

[Stephen Phillips] almost exclusively by volume; they demand high yields from cows to cover their inherently high set-up and all the associated implications for carbon miles. I have operating costs. The relentless pursuit of more and to ask, perhaps rhetorically, whether that is the way more litres of milk to reduce the unit costs of production forward or whether, as I venture to suggest and as I ask can take its toll on health and welfare, which is what the Minister to accept, it is simply better to pay a little concerns so many people. The toll on health and welfare more for the milk we need in this country and ensure can reduce the longevity of animals and place pressure that we are self-sufficient for all our dairy requirements and stress on them. from our existing farms. Experience from overseas, as I have indicated, is not promising. The driving up of milk yields through intensive Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): One of the selection has come at the well-documented expense of problems is not that the farmers sell directly to supermarkets, animal welfare, so the real fear is that mega-dairies in but that they sell to intermediaries who may then sell to this country would do nothing to address the lameness, supermarkets. infertility and other health problems that already affect too large a proportion of Britain’s existing dairy herd. Stephen Phillips: My hon. Friend is correct. The real However well cows are kept while indoors, it seems to point is that the price pressure that has come down from many to be wholly unnatural to keep them inside all the supermarkets, whether through intermediaries or year round, and I understand those fears, although it is those responsible for purchasing milk production, has fair to say that that happens in some colder parts of been so great that many farmers have been driven out of continental Europe. Not allowing cows outside to graze business, and those who remain in business, however during the grazing season seems to many to savour of efficient they are, are effectively driven to a point where battery farming, someone that this country set its face the costs of production are almost equal—and sometimes against a long time ago. greater than—the price that they are being paid for We must not ignore the fact that a lack of access to their milk. pasture concerns many people and is often responsible The Government will have to grapple with that problem for animal health problems, which I do not exaggerate, in a way that the previous Government did not. I as I am sure the Minister will accept. A review carried venture to suggest that we would not be having this out by the European Food Safety Authority in 2009 debate if we paid our dairy farmers a proper price for concluded that zero-grazing systems give rise to a higher their milk, because there would be no need to consider incidence of various health problems in animals and super-dairies. reduce their capacity to engage in normal social interactions. I have already made it clear that every farmer I have That concerns many farmers and many consumers when met is concerned more for the welfare of his or her they turn their minds to the question. stock than is generally accepted, yet the proposals for Dairy farming has been part of this country’s agricultural mega-dairies undoubtedly give rise to legitimate concerns economy for many hundreds of years and is part of our about the welfare of farm animals. Although the rural heritage, as it is in my constituency. That is partly Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs why the reduction in the number of British dairy farmers and the Minister, in his previous utterances, are correct is of such concern to so many of us. The numbers are to say that the most significant influence on welfare is frightening: in 2000 there were 23,286 registered dairy the stock keeper, rather than the system, that statement production holdings in England and Wales, but today depends on the existing status quo and, with regard to the number is 11,233. the proposals for Nocton and other mega-dairies, might Many of those farmers have gone out of business for not take into account potential future developments in reasons to which I have already alluded—they cannot the industry. get a good price for their milk and too often have to sell Future intensive dairy farmers, if we are to go down at below the cost of production. I accept that intensive that route, will have to comply with existing welfare dairy farms could provide economies of scale and allow legislation for their animals, a point that I look forward for greater mechanisation, which would start to reduce to hearing the Minister confirm. Those animals will those trends, but I hope that the Minister will accept need space to move around in and adequate bedding, that that must naturally come at the expense of smaller and all the other regulations for the existing dairy operations. industry will have to be complied with. If we are to go To put it another way, although such economies of down that route, there is no reason to believe that scale are great for the owners of intensive dairy farms, farmers would not treat their herds as well as the vast they sound a further death knell for many smaller majority of small dairy farmers currently treat their producers. Although many people say that they would own. It would not be in their interests to mistreat their prefer to purchase their milk from smaller producers, animals, and I do not suppose that that would happen. there is, as the Minister knows, no requirement to label However, it is equally clear that very large dairies require the origin of milk, a fact that supermarkets know well better monitoring, and different—much more stringent— and wish to see continue. animal welfare guidelines, and I hope to hear the Minister confirm that. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South The point is that although poor welfare can occur in Pembrokeshire) (Con): On my hon. and learned Friend’s both intensive and less intensive systems, the evidence previous point, is he aware that a number of auctioneers available from the United States and various other across the UK are simply not taking bookings to sell jurisdictions plainly shows that intensive systems are milking cows until well into next year because there is more predisposed to increasing the risk of poor animal such a backlog of farmers going out of business and welfare. Intensive milk production models are driven trying to sell their dairy cows? 217WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 218WH

Stephen Phillips: I was not aware of that, but it does I said at the outset that this debate is not primarily not surprise me, given the state of the British dairy about the specific proposals for Nocton, but one aspect industry. That issue is at the heart of the debate. What of intensive dairy farming is that it can adversely affect do we want to see in future for the British dairy industry? local communities in several ways. As I have seen from I want to see existing producers paid a suitable price for my postbag, the ongoing application for the proposed their milk so that they can provide a decent living for farm at Nocton is almost universally opposed by the their families and continue the tradition of farming that communities in which it would be sited, and by those has gone on in this country for hundreds of years. That who have lived in settled farming communities for all does not result in the environmental concerns associated their lives. This is not nimbyism—at least it is not just with intensive dairy farming, which for the most part I nimbyism. It is a legitimate desire to maintain recognisable set my face against. rural communities away from the hurly-burly of the This is not a situation that the Government can industrialised practices that are associated with such permit to continue. Given the pressures on small farmers farms, just as they are associated with light or heavy up and down the country, it is unacceptable for the industry. Government to say that it is all merely down to the Also, let us not forget the slurry: cows produce slurry, planning process, leave it up to local authorities and which must be disposed of. Digesters are part of the allow smaller producers simply to be undercut by intensive answer for such operations, but significant quantities of dairy farms, which for many might be the last straw. If dirty water remain to be disposed of either through intensive dairy farms are to be allowed at all, I hope that environmentally-unfriendly tankering operations or through the Minister will state that there will be action on price discharge, which, unless carefully managed, runs the and labelling so that British consumers who wish to risk of polluting aquifers. avoid purchasing milk from intensive dairy farms will As far as the opposition in my constituency to Nocton have the opportunity to do so. If freedom of choice is concerned, the problem emphatically is not exclusively means anything, it certainly means that we should be about odour—an odour which those of us who live in able to do that. the countryside are used to and, indeed, of which we are Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I rather fond. Effluent contains pathogens and other congratulate my hon. and learned Friend on how he is harmful substances, including residues of pesticides taking the debate forward. He has made the important and veterinary medicines. The use of anaerobic digestion point that there has been enormous price pressure on to process slurry cannot mitigate the entire problem, existing dairy farmers, but does he agree that one way to particularly when dealing with waste from a large number address the problem would be to have the so-called of cows. grocery ombudsman or regulator to ensure that a few This may not be a problem at present in Lincolnshire— large dairies cannot take advantage of many small although it is worth noting that it is one of the driest producers? counties in the country—but the fact is that this country and the world face increasing pressure on water resources. Stephen Phillips: I agree with my hon. Friend. I Intensive dairy farming units would put a great deal of believe that at the election all three main parties promised strain on those resources, as they use large quantities of a farming ombudsman, and that the Minister intends to water. Dairies such as those proposed for Nocton can introduce one. Given the constituency that I come from, cause strain on local water resources. I venture to suggest I hope that that will happen soon. that, if this country were to go down the road of Be in no doubt: we need a farming ombudsman, and intensive dairy farming, the Minister might wish to not just for dairy farmers. We all hear tales about how regulate where such farms can be sited, given local supermarkets in particular put pressure on farmers so water resources. that they can improve their bottom line. Consumers Another reason why local communities are right to who purchase food at those supermarkets simply do not be concerned about proposals for large-scale dairy know about that; incidentally, I believe that they would operations—I shall end my substantive comments today be disgusted were they to know the full truth. with this—are the traffic issues associated with any We need a farming ombudsman, and, if it is not out form of industrialised process, whether in the farming of order or inappropriate, perhaps the Minister would industry or any other. Large numbers of cows that are confirm that we will get one in due course, and that it milked for high yields produce large quantities of milk will be soon. I agree with the comments of my hon. that need to be transported, and require deliveries of all Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger manner of feed and other products associated with Williams). their maintenance and support. In areas where traffic is already an issue, the strain that would be placed on The Minister of State, Department for Environment, existing infrastructure would be, at best, undesirable. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): My hon. and learned Friend has just used a phrase that I would not In areas where traffic is not an issue, perhaps because wish to gain currency. I can confirm happily that the of their rural nature, the position would be just as bad. Government are committed to introducing a grocery Additional traffic movements, particularly of heavy ombudsman, but he used the words “farming ombudsman”. and slow-moving vehicles, could contribute to accidents. That is not what is under discussion. I am sorry, but I Communities in those areas are not used to such traffic, wanted to make that correction. and there is not the infrastructure to deal with the issues surrounding the additional movements. To some extent, Stephen Phillips: I am grateful to the Minister for that that is certainly the case at Nocton, where such issues correction. At some point, we may need to have another rightly concern many of my constituents. debate about the scope of the ombudsman’s jurisdiction The solution to all that, as matters are at present, is and powers, but perhaps we can leave that to one side that we need to make careful inquiries about the mega-dairy for the remainder of today’s debate. bandwagon and prevent it from gaining steam. At the 219WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 220WH

[Stephen Phillips] are producing milk at a loss of between 1p and 2.5p per litre. The dairies sell their products for a profit in the same time, we must recognise that the necessary price of region of 4p to 5p, yet certain supermarkets—I shall try that is developing and paying properly for the remaining to be careful about naming them—are selling at a profit existing dairy farming industry. of 22p a litre. That is the economic context which my We need a rural economy based on sustainable, hon. and learned Friend mentioned. I absolutely agree conventional dairy farming, which includes farmers with him that the buying public, if they were aware of breeding robust cows that retain the capacity to look the muscle that is applied by supermarkets, would greet after themselves—cows grazed on pasture during the that knowledge with a certain amount of disdain and, grazing season, and farmers striving for and achieving indeed, disgust. greater longevity for their animals, producing valuable Let me take that a stage further. One supermarket male calves that can be reared economically for beef. prides itself on paying its suppliers a rather higher price—about 28p a litre. If the truth was known that Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I apologise only 800 suppliers—some 10%—qualify for that price, for my late arrival; unfortunately, I was detained elsewhere the public would raise an eyebrow. In addition, the in the House on other business. I have thoroughly supermarket in question does not fork out that extra agreed with and enjoyed as much of the hon. and amount itself. Instead, it has insisted on the middle man learned Gentleman’s speech as I have been able to listen at the dairy negotiating a more stringent price with the to. supplier. What did the dairy do? The dairy froze its Would the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that payments to farmers who are not providing that mega-dairies are actually the thin end of the wedge, and supermarket, which meant consequentially that their that we may well find in the future that there is almost price was reduced. Although that supermarket is obtaining no rural economy? The ideal location for one of these good public relations for distributing press releases super-sheds is somewhere like Stoke-on-Trent, on a talking about fair trade for farmers, it has not been brownfield site next to major road infrastructure, where impacted on at all. Yet all those farmers who are not materials, feed and so on can be brought in, and waste lucky enough to provide that supermarket chain have products can be removed. This could be the start of the been penalised. That is the actual, factual economic end of the British dairy farming industry. context behind this important debate. That is why—there is no other reason at all—we are looking at the prospect Stephen Phillips: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. of super- dairies, if that is the right expression. That was my reason for asking for this debate in the first I want to inject a degree of measured middle ground, place. It is also the reasoning behind my solution. if I may. It is obvious that, increasingly, farmers recognise Mega-dairies are not the road to take. The hon. Gentleman that scale is the only way that they can make money. I raises the prospect of super-dairies being sited in large am not talking about making large sums, but about sheds on brownfield sites, with all the difficulties that making sufficient money not to go bust and to be able that would cause in respect of not only deliveries of to invest in new technology, which is not just desirable milk, feed stuffs and so on, but disposal of the animals’ for milk production, but is required by law in the waste, which would have to be tankered away from such current economic and legal climate. sites—nothing else can be done with it. I agree that this I represent an area of west Wales in Carmarthenshire, is the thin end of the wedge, and that is why we have to in probably one of the largest milk-producing areas in face it down. I hope to hear from the Minister that that the UK, where there is a significant problem of tuberculosis is the Government’s view. in cattle. Fortunately, that is a debate for another day. I Intensive dairy farming is not the future that I wish am aware, through my constituents, that there is an to see. I hope that the Minister agrees with my view, attraction to housing cattle indoors as far as possible, which is that, in the best interests of the industry, rural because doing so reduces the risk of infection from TB Britain and our dairy farmers, we should create a supply and enables farmers to bulk buy feed and bedding chain that ensures that farmers receive a proper price materials. Hon. Members will be aware that feed has for their milk. We do not need any super-dairies, whether never been more expensive than it is this year. at Nocton or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. It is also clear that production on a larger scale reduces the chances of pollution. We are all aware, 11.28 am sadly, of the incidences of pollution as a consequence of leaking slurry tanks and the like over the years. Fortunately, Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South there has been a decrease in such instances, partly Pembrokeshire) (Con): I join in congratulating my hon. because of housing measures that people have put in and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North place and are increasingly under pressure to implement. Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) on securing this debate. Any discussion in this building about the plight of rural There is an argument, whether it is proven or not, communities, in particular the agricultural aspects of it, that indoor milk production reduces the carbon footprint is encouraging. of particular farms. Other hon. Members will no doubt If I may, I would like to start with some of the expand on whether that is a compelling argument. economic context which my hon. and learned Friend I am not trying to justify or promote large-scale dairy mentioned, and quote some figures. I do this as a production; I am simply trying to set out what my brother-in-law of a dairy farmer, the son of a dairy milk-producing constituents see as an essential consequence farmer, and the husband of a dairy farmer’s daughter—hon. of the supermarket grip on the industry, and saying that Members will get a general idea of my position. At they regard themselves as being much more likely to be present—admittedly, this is only one set of figures—farmers able to invest decent sums in modern technology—we 221WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 222WH have heard about anaerobic digesters—under such Hon. Members have mentioned economic circumstances, conditions than they would be able to under any but tracing this issue to its source it comes back to a other system. simple question. How do we deal with the stranglehold of the supermarkets over our dairy industry? It is not the fault of farmers, the planning system or the Roger Williams: My hon. Friend is generating an Government; it is the fault of supermarkets, which are interesting point of view, which is that we need a range putting short-term gain at the top of their agenda, at of dairy farms, from small and medium-sized ones to the risk of putting the UK dairy industry either into larger ones. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford terminal freefall or being exported. and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) said that there is a welfare code for dairy animals. Perhaps animals We need to impress on the supermarkets the importance kept in larger units might need a different approach of this matter. A demonstration by Welsh farmers outside under the welfare code, because they will be kept in Asda in Chepstow tomorrow will express this view. I different circumstances. said that I would not name a supermarket, but now I have. It is a sad day when any section of the agricultural community is subject to such pressure, because the Simon Hart: I agree. There is no greater expert on this long-term downstream consequences for the rural subject than my hon. Friend. community as a whole will be devastating unless we get I want to return to welfare concerns. The hon. Member this right. for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) made an interesting intervention on whether dairy production would be encouraged to move from its traditional 11.38 am countryside location to brownfield sites. Although there is a danger of that happening, I am not as convinced of Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I congratulate it as he is. There is more to dairy farming than milking my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford cows; there is young stock, dry cows and sick and lame and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) on securing this animals that cannot be housed indoors. There will debate, his measured introduction and balancing clear always be a need for animals in green fields. I do not arguments on welfare and costs. May I also congratulate think that we want to assume that milking is the only my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and part of the process and that dairy farms can be located South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who brings personal anywhere in the UK. It is not quite as simple as that. expertise to this debate in a way that most hon. Members cannot? It is more than 60 years since I first tried to When we discuss animal welfare in this context, there milk a cow by hand and if I tried it today, I probably is a gulf of difference between reality and perception. would not be good at it. My hon. and learned Friend mentioned legitimate concerns. I am always wary of legitimate concerns unless they can Anybody who has been brought up in the west country, be backed up by evidence. The Department is assessing as I was fortunate enough to be, cannot fail to recognise the welfare implications of indoor cattle. We Members the importance of the dairy industry to the rural economy of Parliament, particularly those representing agricultural and to our countryside environment. areas, would be well advised to be a little bit cautious My hon. and learned Friend initially said that super- about talking about legitimate concerns until we know dairies were a planning issue, although he moved away that there are legitimate concerns to be cautious about. from that posture. Technically, that is correct, as is the It is important to remember, in considering the scale case with the one in his constituency, but I venture to of milk production, that thin, lame or ill cattle can be suggest that the issue goes much deeper and is a moral segregated in bigger herds, whereas in normal circumstances, one. Those of us who are sad enough to wake up too in small-scale production, they can be prone to bullying early and find ourselves listening to “Farming Today” by other animals in the herd. Being able to do such know only too well, because we hear about it with things on a larger scale, there is an argument, which I monotonous regularity, the plight of the dairy industry. accept is unproven, that says that welfare standards can Having heard the figures—they were placed on the be improved. In other words, big is not necessarily bad. record again this morning—we understand how dairy I suspect that we are all aware of small dairy producers—the farmers are being screwed by the supermarket industry. sort that we are trying to champion—whose welfare That may be inelegant, but it is accurate. standards are not as good as larger, slightly more industrial The debate so far has concentrated on the obvious units, to use an unattractive term. economic problems to the detriment, to some extent, of the moral argument. Those of us who have knocked We have to be cautious about assuming things and around in this place for a bit—some of us are here being led by the nose—I am not suggesting for one today—participated in the campaign to ban veal crates moment that hon. Members are—down the road that in the United Kingdom. We were highly delighted when says that big is bad and that the only kind of high-welfare we succeeded, and the Government of the day outlawed milk production is undertaken by small producers. We the use of crates in this country. With glorious hindsight, know that that is not so. We need evidence to hand with which we are blessed, it was a pyrrhic victory, before we make judgments in that regard. because all we did was to move the problem from A to I welcome this debate, which has been waiting to be B, and veal calves that were once reared under relatively heard and which has huge consequences for the rural humane conditions, albeit not desirable, in the United economy. If the Government get this wrong—I am not Kingdom are now reared under infinitely worse conditions suggesting that they might—there will be massive social on mainland Europe. Not only that, they are first and environmental consequences and it will be hard to transported to mainland Europe by sea. Far from win-win, be put things back together. we can fairly say with hindsight that it was lose-lose. 223WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 224WH

[Mr Roger Gale] with that, we must get regulation under control so that we not only pass, but enforce on Europe and the rest of My concern is that unless we get the matter right, we the world the welfare regulations that we apply to are in grave danger of moving the dairy problem from ourselves here in the United Kingdom. A to B, to the detriment of the British dairy industry and of animal welfare, so again it could be lose-lose. Reference was made to regulations from Brussels being 11.46 am an argument for another day but, with respect, I believe that it is an argument for today. Unless we engineer a Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I thank my situation that overrides European regulations on free hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and trade, and put in place measures that will not allow to North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for obtaining this be sold in the United Kingdom animal produce that has important debate. He could not have picked a more been reared under conditions that we would not permit important time to do so, as we have heard. We are all in this country, we shall lose. aware that we are at a crucial stage with a plan for a new factory dairy farm. It will either be approved by Lincolnshire I detect that no one in the Chamber wants super-dairies county council or, if the decision is deferred, considered to take over from traditional dairy farms, but the danger by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local is that those who fund the super-dairies will take their Government. I hope to contribute to persuading the money to northern France, Belgium, Holland or elsewhere Minister to use his influence to encourage the Secretary close by on mainland Europe and produce precisely the of State to delay that application when it is submitted. I same quantities of milk under precisely the same undesirable shall briefly explain why. circumstances. We will import it and our British dairy farmers will go out of business. We have heard arguments on animal welfare and broader environmental concerns. A broad range of organisations, including Compassion in World Farming, Robert Flello: I am listening with great interest and the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the World appreciating the passion of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. Society for the Protection of Animals, Friends of the Will he draw some parallels with what has happened in Earth, the Campaign Against Factory Farming Operations the pottery industry in my constituency, where the work and many others, have made their views known. I want has gone abroad? Pottery owners drove down prices as to return to another major concern. much as possible to try to compete with cheap imports until they were no longer competitive. Production moved The Minister told hon. Members in the House that abroad, goods were produced more cheaply and then he welcomes the fact that people are looking to invest in imported back, and were passed off as being produced our dairy sector. But is that the kind of investment that here because they were packaged here. Is not the same we want? No one can deny that if the mega-dairy model thing happening already in the food industry with pork is a success, it will impact heavily on traditional dairy being imported, packaged and sold to unsuspecting farming in this country. If the new model works, the old British consumers as though it were British pork? I model will have to give way at some point. Farmers will appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s line of argument, and go out of business, and for those who survive, there will perhaps he will draw some parallels. be little prospect of their children taking over. We will see a profound transformation of our countryside with acceleration of the depressing trends described in the Mr Gale: I will not be tempted down that road, brilliant speech by my hon. Friend the Member for simply because it is probably outside the remit of this Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon debate, and because there is a fundamental difference. Hart). Of course, I accept that cheap imports of anything from anywhere can damage our UK producers and, therefore, Today, just over 16,000 dairy farms produce 12 billion to some extent our UK economy. Mass production is a litres of milk. If the CPRE research is correct, the same feature of the world, and we import goods from all over quantity could be produced with just 232 Nocton-style the world, but we are talking about welfare. We still mega-dairies. We have seen in the United States how import veal that has been produced in veal crates, while quickly intensive agriculture can take hold. In 10 years, not allowing veal crates here. That is a welfare issue. We the number of cows reared in intensive conditions nearly still import chickens and pigmeat that are produced doubled from 2.5 million to 4.9 million between 1997 under intensive conditions that we would simply not and 2007. allow in the United Kingdom. I fail to see how it can be If we are to move to a situation in which farmers are right for us to shackle United Kingdom agricultural replaced by a handful of technicians, cattle food is producers and to tie one, if not both hands behind their imported, fields are left empty, and cows are denied back, while cheerfully allowing European trade regulations grazing, at the very least we should consider the implications to override all those welfare considerations so that our because that shift is not inevitable, as we have been led markets are flooded by anything from anywhere, produced to believe. It will not result from some kind of overwhelming under any circumstances. That is morally wrong, and evolutionary market force. It has nothing to do with the we must stop it. market. I have yet to meet a single consumer who wants If the public seriously believe in the moral and welfare to buy such stuff. Even some of the mega-supermarkets issues, they must be prepared to pay. We must be that have rightly taken a bashing this morning—I will prepared to pay a fair price to farmers for our food—not give them another bashing later—and household-name to the middle man or the supermarket, but at the very supermarkets have said that they will not sell milk from beginning to farmers. That is the only way to secure the mega-dairies. There is no shortage of milk. We export right to demand high animal welfare standards. But I more than we import. The market is not what will take must tell my hon. Friend the Minister that in tandem us towards the mega-dairy—or, indeed, towards cloned 225WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 226WH meat or genetically modified food, both of which seem from happening. I do not expect him to be persuaded in to be back on the agenda. However, politicians might this forum, in a brief series of speeches, but I ask him to take us in that direction. acknowledge the concerns and to use his influence to We have a new Farming Minister who is almost put the project on hold until he has commissioned a unique in that he is respected by both small and large broad and thorough analysis of the likely impacts, not farmers. He belongs to a Government whose leaders just on welfare, which is key, but on the whole farming spent a great deal of time before the election, crucially, sector. Without that information, we cannot take a supporting slow food, organic food, sustainable food, proper, responsible or reasonable decision. local food, farmers’ markets and the works—the antithesis of factory production. I do not believe that the Minister wants to preside over a process in which our countryside 11.53 am is effectively handed over to US-style intensive agribusiness. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you, I recognise that the National Farmers Union has, Mrs Riordan, for the opportunity to contribute to a more or less, endorsed the Nocton plans, but the NFU debate that is close to my own interests. I thank my hon. stands almost alone among farmers’ groups with that and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North support. It would be wrong to mistake the NFU for an Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for the way in which he authentic voice for farmers, given that its president introduced the debate and, in particular, his reference to casually recommended recently: the power of the supermarket—I am looking forward “We need to experiment…We should give it a try.” to that debate in the new year, when we will address He was not speaking for farmers but for agribusiness. what is a fundamental issue in this debate. That is why, outside Parliament a few years ago, I have three reasons for wanting to contribute to the representatives from countless small farming organisations debate. First, for the first 15 years of my working life, I lined up with posters saying, “NFU: No F…ing Use”—I was a dairy farmer. I gave up dairy farming because, was there at the time. with 70 cows and a pipeline system, I was finding myself Nocton is opposed by a wide range of farming bodies, left behind. I had to make a huge investment to go up to from FARM, the Small Farms Association and the 150 cows, so I took the decision to stop dairy farming Family Farmers’ Association to the Soil Association, and to switch to beef and sheep. and including the Farmers Union of Wales, which said I also spent seven years as the chair of a local recently: planning authority, so I have a significant interest. The “Given that a single super-dairy could take the place of scores issue that we are discussing is a planning one, making of average sized family dairy farms, we would prefer to see the debate of interest to me. traditional family farms staying in business and receiving a fair price for their milk, rather than single massive units pushing My third reason is the application for a 1,000-cow others out of business”. dairy unit in my constituency, quite close to my home, I know that the Minister shares that concern for the which has been controversial. I do not want to make future of farming in this country. I urge him to step in particular reference to that planning application, because now, before it is too late. We do not always have to yield there are pluses and minuses. A local young farmer has to the lowest possible standards. We could, for example, general support for wanting to stay competitive in a invest the £2 billion or so spent on food in schools and difficult industry, but on the other hand the unit would hospitals on the best quality, local, British sustainable be close to a local school, so it will be a big issue for the food, cutting food miles, giving patients and children local planning authority to decide. the food that they want and immediately boosting the There are mixed views. I am keen to see a balanced rural economy. approach to the debate. My fundamental approach to As we have just heard in the speech of my hon. any issue is to ask, “Why not?” We are talking about a Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale), we completely new type of dairy unit. It is important to can insist that whatever food is imported should meet start from the general principle that people should be the same standards that we apply to our own farmers, allowed to do what they want unless there is a good, so that our farmers are not unfairly outcompeted. Yes, solid reason for not doing it. The same applies to that requires us to take on the trade rules but, if the planning. A planning authority starts from the position rules make no sense, the Government’s job is to challenge that it should grant planning permission, unless there them. We must do that if we are serious about protecting are good planning reasons not to do so. I want to the British farming sector. approach the debate with that general attitude. In addition, we could negotiate a better deal from the I am as much a romantic as, probably, any of us. My supermarkets. I will not repeat the arguments that we first experience of dairying was on my nain and taid’s have already heard, but they are absolutely valid and I farm, where they milked seven cows. My nain milked echo them. There is an imbalance of power—again, I the cows by hand. They made cheese and I used to spin cannot imagine any other body in this country, other the churn—it was pretty hard work, too. I am probably than the Government, that is able or equipped to challenge the only one present who has done that, and it is pretty and address that imbalance. That is a prerequisite for significant work—my granny was quite elderly and had ensuring the survival of the farming sector. no problem at all, but I did—and milking cows by hand We have heard that the Department for Environment, is not easy, either. Food and Rural Affairs does not have the power to stop I have an instinctive antipathy to the idea of nearly Nocton or such a dairy model. However, if the Minister 4,000 cows in a unit, but we need to go beyond that and is persuaded that the risks are too great, he can raise look at why we might oppose such plans. It is not standards without legislation, to prevent such developments straightforward. 227WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 228WH

Stephen Phillips: My hon. Friend is concerned about It will be able to do the training that smaller units 4,000 cows, but I wish to make it clear that the proposers cannot. A large dairy unit will almost certainly have an of the development at Nocton originally put in an ongoing relationship with a veterinary surgeon, who application for more than 6,000. If he is concerned will call in regularly. The smaller units do not have that. about 4,000, it has been made clear that that will in due Most farmers with herds the size of mine considered course become 6,000, so he ought to be even more themselves to be veterinary surgeons. We were not concerned. I hope that he agrees with me. willing to pay what I thought were excessive bills at the time—we did it ourselves. I think that we shall find that Glyn Davies: I heard that the original Nocton proposal the welfare standards in large units will be very impressive, was for 7,000 cows. Once we reach 1,000, the principle is and if they are not, they will not get permission. much the same—we are dealing with a big unit in which There are many other, environmental reasons why the animals are housed for almost the whole time. That one might want to refuse an application for a large unit, is a different way of producing milk. I accept my hon. and I think that planning authorities should be willing and learned Friend’s point. to turn down applications, unless they meet their exacting Let us go into the reasons for not doing it. The first standards. The application in my constituency is within was in the more significant part of my hon. and learned view of Powis castle. The local planning authority will Friend’s introductory speech: the driving out of small have to consider that issue. The Environment Agency farmers as a result of the economic conditions that the will have to examine all the implications for the larger farmers might create. I am not sure that I accept environmental impact. All such issues will have to be that reason. When I was milking 70 cows, I was accused considered by a planning authority before approval is of driving out small farmers. That was the position secured. then. In truth, a person hand-milking seven cows was I want to deal now with the public resistance element. just not economic—that was the reason for stopping the During my eight years in the National Assembly for business. In those days, the 70-cow unit was economic, Wales, I was a huge enthusiast for organic farming and but we reached a stage when it was not. farmers’ markets. We should continue with that, but we Small farmers will be and have been going out of have to persuade people to come and buy from these business—we heard the numbers earlier. That has happened units. The reality is that most customers—consumers—will and will continue, irrespective of the large farming unit. buy where the price is cheapest. The supermarkets will I do not think that there is a direct correlation between drive down the price, and unless British farmers produce the two issues. the product, they will import it. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) made a very good Simon Hart: We are in danger of muddling two point about exporting a problem. That is exactly what things, one of which is the size of the unit. Plenty of might happen in the dairy industry unless we deal with farmers have gradually crept up from seven cows to 70, the matter. In relation to public resistance, we need a from 70 to 170 and, in my family’s case, from about 100 balanced and open mind and a view based on scientific to 400. Is there some cut-off point, above which they knowledge. should not be allowed to go? That is one of the issues I want to appeal not only to my hon. Friend the we are discussing. The other issue is whether it is Minister but to everyone who participates in the debate— appropriate to be milking cows indoors 365 days of the because it will be an ongoing debate; the issue will not year. We are in danger of confusing the two issues. be dealt with in the short term—not to take an instinctive view. Mine might be one of antipathy. We must examine Glyn Davies: Several issues are probably involved, so the science, because in the end that is what will rule the I want to make my second point, which is that we might decision. If we in this House are to have an impact on want to resist the development on welfare grounds. We the issue, we have to present the facts and have an can include housing for 365 days a year as a welfare influence, we hope, on the purchasers, which are mostly issue. Even with a seven-cow herd, the animals were supermarkets. Only the Government can do that now, indoors for six months of the year. Being indoors is not because supermarkets have reached such a state of particularly unusual. I think that the application for a dominance in the market. By taking a balanced approach, 1,000-cow unit in my constituency proposes that the we may well have some influence and, while not necessarily animals should be indoors for almost two thirds of the returning to the image of my childhood, staying rather year. I suspect that the application for the 7,000-cow closer to it. unit proposed having the animals indoors, apart from the followers, for 12 months of the year. What we have Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. I want to to keep at the core of our thinking is high welfare allow time for the winding-up speeches, so I will call standards, and we must be guided by science or we shall Neil Parish now, but he must finish his speech, please, lose the argument in the end. within five minutes.

[MR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] 12.3 pm I do not accept that it is necessarily more difficult to meet welfare standards with a large herd than with a Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I should small herd. I know that some people will disagree, but I like to follow my hon. Friend the Member for just do not think that the large size of a herd is a proven Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and say that my views reason for that. In fact, we can argue a little bit the on this issue are also mixed. If I look at the commercial other way, because for a large herd, there will almost situation and even the animal welfare situation, I do not certainly be professionally trained staff, and a large unit think that there is a problem with the unit that we are will be able to afford to keep them professionally trained. discussing, because there will be vets on call, the buildings 229WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 230WH will be exceptional and the quality of everything on that my constituency in Devon, I have to say that keeping farm will be excellent. I do not think that that is the cows out grazing is part of the landscape that people issue. expect to see. I shall explain my concern. When we see the advertising I do not envy the Minister his task today because he of milk, cheese or butter, we see the wonderful Kerrygold has to balance many elements, but as we move forward cows hopping around the field. I do not think that the on this proposal, or stop it or whatever, we must be Kerrygold cows are any happier than anyone else’s conscious of the dairy industry as a whole, of smaller cows, but of course that company is very good at farms and of the public’s perception of dairy farming. marketing the product. I worry about the dairy industry as a whole. We live 12.8 pm in a time when people want to eat less fat and we need to market the product well, and I am not convinced in that Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a respect with regard to 4,000, 6,000 or 8,000 cows on a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first farm in Lincolnshire or wherever that are kept indoors time, Mr Leigh, as it was under Mrs Riordan’s. This has all the time. Let us say that a farm has 6,000 cows. Six been an excellent debate. I congratulate the hon. and fours are 24; that is 24,000 feet. Imagine turning those learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham out into a field; certainly, if it was one of my fields in (Stephen Phillips) on securing it. He spoke with great Somerset, it would not take long to turn it into a plough passion and authority. ground. I know that, in reality, not all 6,000 cows would I also wish to commend the contributions of the hon. be turned out together, but the chances of those cows Members for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire going out into the field and being seen grazing are (Simon Hart) and for North Thanet (Mr Gale), who pretty negligible. I think that we all accept that. referred to the moral argument underpinning the issue and to the need for EU-level reform. I thank the hon. We can argue the rights and wrongs of the single Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), who farm payment and the common agricultural policy, but made an interesting and thoughtful speech. The hon. farming does take quite a lot of public money one way Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) spoke of or the other, and the public, rightly or wrongly, want to the need to promote further scientific research with the see a certain style of farming. They want to see cows authority of being a dairy farmer. I also wish to commend out in the fields. We have only to think back to the time the speech of the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton of foot and mouth disease in 2001, when so many sheep (Neil Parish). and cattle were, unfortunately, slaughtered. The one thing that the public told me was that they missed the The dairy industry in the United Kingdom has been livestock in the fields. We have to face up to that. through an extremely volatile period. Intensive farming raises three challenges: first, animal welfare; secondly, My hon. Friend the Minister has a huge conundrum greenhouse gas emissions, to which I think the hon. to solve. From the point of view of the economics, Member for Richmond Park referred; and thirdly, market welfare and planning, there is probably no problem, but distortions, which we hope the work on the grocery in terms of the industry, the welfare of farmers and the ombudsman, begun under the previous Government, public’s concept of farming, there is a big issue. We can will address. I hope that that work will be implemented argue about the economics of dairy farming, but it will under the current Government. I shall develop each of be accepted that even now, people should be able to the points in turn. make a reasonable living from 200 cows, so do we really After a period of extreme volatility, the dairy industry want to go to 4,000 or 8,000 cows, which will take out in the UK is still the third largest in the EU and the 40 or 80 of what I would call commercially viable ninth largest in the world, producing more than 11 billion farms? litres per annum, amounting to more than 16% of Then what are we doing? We are handing over even agricultural output last year, and contributing £3.1 billion more power to the supermarkets. They will love to get to the economy. Despite the volatility in production and their milk from herds of 4,000, 6,000 or 8,000 cows, prices, yield per cow increased between 1995 and 2005, because they can send dirty great tankers along, probably and average yield per cow increased in 2008 and 2009. all day long, to collect the milk. I suspect that the cows The NFU said earlier this year that a typical UK dairy will be milked several times a day, so there will be milk farm with a herd of 113 is likely to produce approximately there all the time and the supermarkets will be able to a million litres of milk per year, with the average yield get tanker-loads of it. That suits everyone from a per cow increasing from slightly less than 6,000 litres in commercial point of view, but will it actually increase 2000 to more than 7,000 in 2010. the price of milk? I doubt that very much. I suspect that It is clear that it is ultimately for the local council it will decrease the price of milk and then the 200-cow and, if brought in by the Government, the Secretary of herd, the 300-cow herd and even the 400-cow herd will State for Communities and Local Government to determine be under pressure. what happens in Nocton. I do not wish to comment on I know that I am perhaps wanting to have my cake the precise legal technicalities of the process that may and eat it. I want to say, “Let’s have commercial farming,” come in future. However, the debate has raised wider and then say, “Well, this is a little bit too commercial. questions on what the view of DEFRA and right hon. Let’s stop it here.” However, we do have to consider the and hon. Members should be towards intensifying farming, issue carefully, because we are talking about the overall based on the three points that I mentioned. health and the overall marketing of the dairy industry There does not seem to be a consensus that intensifying and what I believe is an excellent product; it is very farming will universally lead to negative outcomes on good for people to consume. Returning my remarks to animal welfare. The Farm Animal Welfare Council 231WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 232WH

[Mr William Bain] Commission had to produce a package of support in 2009 to support dairy farmers in the UK and across the and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to EU. In the discussions on CAP reform, which we hope Animals have said that, in their view, intensification will will be concluded by 2013, there needs to be a longer-term not necessarily lead to a diminution in animal welfare. settlement that will put the dairy industry, across the EU, on a surer footing. I hope the Minister can indicate Mr Gale: Does the shadow Minister accept that there the position that the Government will take on dairy is a fundamental difference between animal health and farming in those negotiations. animal welfare? One is quantifiable and easy to identify, This is an extremely controversial issue. The planning and the other is much harder to identify, but just as application for Nocton in itself raises important matters, important. but I think the wider debate we need to have about the three principles is more important—animal welfare, Mr Bain: That is an extremely good point. The hon. greenhouse gas emissions and correcting the problems Gentleman anticipated the argument that I was going in the dairy market. I hope the Minister can set out the to advance. There is a need for more research into Government’s position on all three in his concluding intensification. In the United States, farms of 15,000 remarks. cows or more are not unknown, and the proportion of farms with more than 500 cows has doubled from 31.3% to 59.5% of the national herd. Fewer than half 12.18 pm the farms with under 99 cows are still in business, so it is The Minister of State, Department for Environment, clear that there has been an impact on the small dairy Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am grateful farmer in the US. It is important that we conduct to be serving under your chairmanship for, I think, the economic research into whether the same would happen first time, Mr Leigh. I start obviously, but genuinely, by in the EU. thanking my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for Stephen Phillips: In the US, which is a much larger securing the debate. He feels strongly about this issue, country, there is a minimum separation zone between which is obviously precipitated by his constituency. It is these sorts of intensive farms and the nearest settlement. a matter of great concern, as we all understand and has Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is important? been demonstrated in the Chamber this morning. I have It may be one reason why these intensive dairy farms received countless letters and e-mails from people all are not appropriate for many places in the UK. over the country expressing concern, as I am sure other Members have. Mr Bain: That is another excellent point, and it is If I may, I shall make a slightly provocative statement. why we must move with extreme care and ensure that we For the past 30 years or so, all political parties and get the best evidence on animal welfare and on the consumer organisations have called for the dismantling economic impact on small farmers. I hope that the of agricultural protection, in whatever form it took, Minister can give us further information in his closing and for a move to a market-based system, because the remarks on any impact assessment that DEFRA is consumer pays too much for food under protectionist conducting. systems. We have moved a long way in that direction The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation said over the past few years, and the debate today is the earlier this year that the global dairy sector contributes consequence of that move. 4% to total global anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions, What we have heard in the debate is almost a plea to and the share from global milk production is 2.7%. go backwards. We have heard that consumers would There is a balance to be struck between the need to pay a bit more for their milk to protect farmers, but that reduce greenhouse gas emissions, which taking more is a bit like the letters we get from people who say they cows inside and using anaerobic digestion more may would rather pay more tax than have the funding to diminish, and the wider arguments on animal welfare. their children’s school cut. However, the reality, as we Some concerns have been expressed by Compassion in all know, is that they will not pay more tax if they are World Farming, for example; it said that excessive given the option, and I am afraid that it is the same with intensification could lead to growing incidences of lameness, dairy farming. mastitis and other illnesses affecting cattle. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet However, some advantages of intensification have (Mr Gale) referred absolutely rightly to what happened been identified, which we must properly evaluate and after we banned veal crates, and the same applied with not rule out. For example, the FAWC has said: sow stalls, when the pig industry was decimated. We “In general, management of dairy cows that are housed all simply exported those standards. Units in the pig and year round is easier for the farmer”. poultry industries have become larger, with fewer individual It goes on to say that housing cows all year round proprietors, and concern has been expressed that milk allows for more effective control over feed composition will go the same way. and for diets that are targetable to specific groups. The reality, of course, is that we have imported pig There is also a reduced risk of parasitic infestation and meat, veal and other commodities from other countries greater biosecurity. It is clear that there is no consensus because it is cheaper to produce it abroad. As my hon. on whether intensification is intrinsically bad, which is Friend made absolutely clear, that is what consumers why we need further economic and scientific research to wanted. The only protection against that is not to raise explore the issues more fully. our standards or to instigate some form of import There have been extreme swings in the market in control, which, as we all know, is illegal under European recent years, particularly in EU milk prices. Indeed, the law and the World Trade Organisation. 233WH Intensive Dairy Farming14 DECEMBER 2010 Intensive Dairy Farming 234WH

Neil Parish: I do not believe that we want to go Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) said, backwards, but this proposal wants to go forwards too certain processors have massively bid for contracts to fast. It will see off too many medium-sized farmers who process and bottle for supermarkets. They then pass on can make a good living. That is my point. to the producers the results of what is, in many ways, over-bidding. We are now in the absurd situation where Mr Paice: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, and I the farm-gate price paid for milk that goes into liquid will try to pick it up, although I will obviously not be products or relatively high-value cheese products is able to respond to all the important points that my hon. lower than that which people could afford to pay if they Friends and the hon. Member for Glasgow North East were going to convert that milk into skimmed milk (Mr Bain) have made. powder, which is the lowest-priced global commodity— There has been a bit of a battle for credibility between although, even then, the global price for the raw milk is some of my hon. Friends as to who first milked cows. If about 27p or 28p a litre. I might join in, it is about 44 years since I first milked The Government are, of course, committed to the cows. In those days—we can all say “in those days”—most concept of free trade and open markets, and the Opposition dairy herds were in the 20-to-30 cow bracket, and 100 probably largely share that fundamental belief. We do was a massive herd. If we had had a debate about not believe in interfering in how business operates, but mega-dairies in those days, we would have been talking it behoves business to operate a fair market arrangement. about 100 cows. I cannot stand here and say that the Government will The average herd in England is now 113 cows. There never intervene if we clearly see unfair practices going are lots of herds with more than 500 cows; one has on. We hope that the adjudicator will resolve all that, 2,000 cows and several have more than 1,000 cows. The but let me make it clear to the dairy processing and world has moved on, and no Government of any retail sectors that it behoves them to operate a fair colour—we have obviously had all shades over the past market. They must recognise that if they do not, we 44 years—have blown the whistle and said, “This is too will, as hon. Members have frequently said, lose the big.” British dairy industry, whatever the type of housing, to overseas competitors. The result will be ever-more volatile Zac Goldsmith: The Minister is right to have identified, prices. as others have, the perverse European rules that force us into a situation where our farmers are out-competed by Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Will the Minister farmers importing substandard products from elsewhere give way? in Europe. Before the election, the Prime Minister pledged to challenge those rules, and my question is simply Mr Paice: I am sorry, but I cannot give way any more. whether the Government still have any appetite to do so on behalf of our farmers and food security groups. It People would not have the cheap liquid milk that they would be welcomed by farmers across the board if that want, because, as we all know, importing liquid milk is pledge was fulfilled. always expensive given its bulk cost. As a result, therefore, business will find that it is operating against consumer Mr Paice: Without wishing to duck that question, I interests in the long term. should say that trade issues are, as my hon. Friend is That reminds me of the point that my hon. Friend well aware, a matter for my right hon. Friend the the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) made Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. about imports and exports. He is right about the figures Obviously, however, we would wish to pursue as best we for liquid milk, but virtually all our liquid milk exports can commitments made by the Prime Minister before actually go over the Irish border, from Northern Ireland the election. to southern Ireland, where they are made into cheese Let me move on to the point about competition in the before coming back into the UK market. domestic market and about supermarkets, which all my Overall, our dairy market is massively reliant on hon. Friends have raised in various ways. First, let me imports of dairy products, which is why I personally reaffirm that the Government are committed to introducing believe—there is no strong evidence one way or the legislation to bring in the supermarket code adjudicator. other—that the fear that a mega-dairy will destroy We will call it an adjudicator because, compared with smaller dairy farmers is not necessarily justified. There existing ombudsmen, it is not strictly an ombudsman. is huge scope in this country to improve and expand our I urge those of my hon. Friends who share my view dairy industry. With the exception of Ireland, we grow that the sooner we introduce the adjudicator the better, the best grass anywhere in Europe, and we should be to press the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation competitive. It is my job to try to create that competitiveness. and Skill because this is his legislation. We will proceed I am clearly running short of time, and I cannot as quickly as possible, but we need to be absolutely respond to all the points that have been made. However, honest with ourselves and with farmers that this proposal as my hon. and learned Friend opened the debate, I will not in itself lead to a price rise; it is about ensuring must emphasise that, as has frequently been said, I have that we have fair and transparent terms of trade and no powers to intervene in any application. Issues to do about enforcing the code, which has been in operation with traffic, pollution and noise are for the local council since February. We must not be accused of misleading to consider. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond people into thinking that the adjudicator will somehow Park talked about my using my influence on the Secretary make everything all right. of State if an application went to appeal, but that would My hon. Friends said a lot about supermarkets, so I be seen as illegal and would be wide open to judicial will not go further into that issue. However, we also challenge, so I am afraid that I cannot accept that need to look at processors. As my hon. Friend the invitation, much as I might wish to. 235WH Intensive Dairy Farming 14 DECEMBER 2010 236WH

[Mr Paice] Early Years Education

In conclusion, the Government understand the great 12.30 pm public concern about this issue and about the changes to cattle—a lot of genetic improvement has taken place— Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve and we accept, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. East said, that there is a need for research. That is why There is now almost universal agreement in the House we have commissioned research—the previous Government that early years education improves children’s outcomes commissioned some of it, and we are very happy with in school and beyond. I want to focus today on the that—from the Scottish Agricultural College on improving take-up of the entitlement to 15 hours a week of free the robustness and welfare of cows through the development early years education for three and four-year-olds, and of breeding indices, as well as a further study on the to stress how important it is that all children should management and welfare of continuously housed cows. benefit from it. Currently about 8% of three and four- If those studies demonstrate that the Government year-olds do not take up their free entitlement. Figures need to act on welfare codes, or in any other way, we show that children who do not receive early years will, of course, have to consider that, but I do not wish education are significantly more likely to be from non- to pre-empt the conclusions of those studies. The working and lower-income families. Government believe in being led by scientific evidence; The free places were introduced as part of a strategy we will examine those research studies when they come to improve child outcomes, as an abundance of research out and we will act if necessary. I am grateful to my has shown that attendance at high-quality settings is hon. and learned Friend for giving me the opportunity linked to improved outcomes, both at the time of attending to discuss this matter. and later in life. That, too, was a central message in the recent independent review of poverty and life chances by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who said that the first five years of a child’s life were the most important. The Prime Minister agreed, and wrote to him that the foundation years “are the critical ones in terms of promoting a fairer and more mobile society”. In short, we all agree that early years education can make a difference to outcomes, and that it has the potential to reduce inequalities. In January 2010, according to the Department for Education, the number of three-year-olds benefiting from some free early education at maintained schools or in the private, voluntary or independent sector was 584,200—or 92% of the three-year-old population. However, close analysis of the figures shows that the take-up of early years education remains lower among non-working and low-income families, some ethnic groups and families living in more deprived areas, who, I would argue, are precisely the children who would benefit from it most. The child care and early years survey of parents 2008 showed that uptake of free early education for three and four-year-olds was highest, at 90%, among couple families where both parents were working. The figure for working single parents was 88%. By far the lowest take-up was in couple families where neither parent was working, where the figure was 79%, and among lone parents who were out of work, where it was 76%. That pattern roughly accords with figures that I have obtained locally. In Stockport, the average take-up of places by three and four-year-olds is 96%, which is above the national average, but in the two most deprived areas of my constituency the take-up figures are lower. In Brinnington the take-up is 92.7% and in Lancashire Hill it is 84%. I believe that the Brinnington figure is higher because it is a more settled community, has a higher working population, and has had the benefit of one of the first children’s centres in the country, whereas Lancashire Hill has lower levels of employment and the population is more unsettled and transient. Although those figures are higher than the national average they are still cause for concern, because it is extremely important that children from the most deprived families should take up their 237WH Early Years Education14 DECEMBER 2010 Early Years Education 238WH places. Research shows that that increases educational to ensure that they obtained an appropriate place for opportunities in life and means those concerned are less the free entitlement to 15 hours that their child would likely to fail in later years. It also means that the state gain on turning three. needs to spend less money later to pick up the costs of Stockport’s project for two-year-olds was successful that failure. also because of strong commitment from all partners. I Improving take-up of early years education for the pay tribute to Vicki Packman, from Stockport’s children most disadvantaged families is crucial. Perhaps some and young people’s directorate, and her team, for their lessons can be learned from the experience of the pilots incredible enthusiasm and commitment to early years of free nursery places providing high-quality learning education in Stockport. The Stockport pilot had a for the most disadvantaged 15% of two-year-olds, which data-driven approach, with a clear focus on early the Labour Government introduced. I welcome the fact intervention and prevention, and family support. Allocation that the coalition Government have announced that of places was by a multi-agency panel. It built on they will continue that offer, and plan to put their strong, existing universal and targeted outreach networks. commitment into legislation by 2013. In a written statement Those teams took a holistic approach to the identification yesterday the Secretary of State for Education referred of support needs, and used their professional experience to the commitment to and judgment to refer appropriate families to the panel. “extending free early education with an entitlement for disadvantaged They also helped to engage directly a number of hard- two year olds from 2013” to-reach groups. A brokerage service offered by Stockport’s family information service was a key feature. It provided with funding of £64 million in 2011-12 and £223 million a key contact for parents, some of whom needed extra in 2012-13. That will be part of the early intervention encouragement, support and advice, and offered home grant, which is for early interventions across all the age visits to explain the options to the family. In that way ranges. The early intervention grant is not ring-fenced. the service developed a trusted relationship with parents However, in the statement the Secretary of State said: and carers. An initial visit to the setting was set up for “Against the background of greater flexibility to decide priorities the family and their support worker could attend. Those locally, there are key areas of early intervention where the Government relationships, formed at an early stage, were crucial to are ensuring that the overall grant provides support”. —[Official the success of the placement and the project. It is Report, 13 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 68WS.] interesting that that brokerage service ensured a very One of the key areas is two-year-olds; indeed, specific low drop-out rate. Only two children out of 117 left the funding was announced in the statement, together with project, and that was because both moved away from children’s centres and short breaks for disabled children. the area. Those figures are truly excellent. Will the Minister confirm that that is ring-fenced It was very important that those disadvantaged two- funding? If it is not, will he confirm that the continuation year-olds had such a positive experience outside the of the current offer for two-year-olds until there is an home, as a proportion would have been on the child entitlement in law, in 2013, will be determined by local protection register, or the family would have experienced authorities? As the Secretary of State has announced recent domestic abuse, or substance misuse in the previous that the early interventions grant will be 10.9% lower, in 12 months. There are lessons to be learned, and the 2011-12, than the aggregated funding through predecessor success needs to be transferred to encourage the families grants, is the Minister confident that local authorities of three to four-year-olds who receive no early years will continue to fund the offer for two-year-olds when education to get their children to attend and benefit there will also be pressure to fund services to young and from the free sessions to which they are entitled. vulnerable adults? Coincidentally, those are the same Kate Wood, the co-ordinator of the Two Year Old disadvantaged young adults whose life chances would pilot project in Stockport explains things perfectly. She have been much improved by early education. If the said: distribution of all the early intervention grant will be at “The Two Year Old Pilot Project is giving support to families local authorities’ discretion, what monitoring will the who need it early on, before challenges become unmanageable. It Department do to ensure that there is provision in all is giving disadvantaged children a chance to learn and develop local authorities? with new experiences outside of the home in a positive and social environment and it is giving families a chance to access other Stockport participated in the pilot for two-year-olds, activities and services. We hope that these children will be more which has been very successful. I believe that that is one ready to access their free hours at three and to start school at five of the reasons the take-up of the free entitlement for and will have the same opportunity to achieve as their peers.” three and four-year-olds in Stockport is above the national average. Some of that success could be copied and That is what we want for all those children who have transferred to help to increase the uptake by three to difficult lives: an opportunity for them to learn, develop four-year-olds nationally. I maintain that in Stockport and have experiences outside the home, which will take-up has been high because of the nature of the enable them to cope better and achieve when they start proactive work that has been done in engaging families school. There is a variety of reasons why parents say and children in the pilot for two-year-olds. In addition they do not take up their free entitlement. Some parents to high-quality places for 10 hours a week over 38 weeks, simply want to look after their own children, but others Stockport families were given access to strong family will lead too chaotic a life and find it too challenging to support. Although it was not a condition attached to a get their children to the nursery on a regular basis, and place, families were actively encouraged to participate we need to help them. in home learning support, or wider parental support. I The Department for Children, Families and Schools hope that the Government’s offer for two-year-olds will 2008 survey asked parents who said that their children involve such additional family support, which is vital. were not receiving free entitlement whether they were As part of the Stockport pilot parents were encouraged aware that the Government paid for some hours per 239WH Early Years Education14 DECEMBER 2010 Early Years Education 240WH

[Ann Coffey] “Later interventions to help poorly performing children can be effective but, in general, the most effective and cost-effective way to help and support young families is in the earliest years of a week of nursery education for three and four-year-olds. ″ Only 61% of those parents said they were aware of the child’s life. scheme. Will the Minister tell me what plans he has to I agree: we must not allow cycles of deprivation and raise the level of awareness and improve the quality and failure to be handed on from one generation to another. accessibility of information about free early years education? The only way to prevent that is to ensure that those children, who, through no fault of their own, are born When parents were asked where they got their into disadvantaged homes, are helped. One intervention information about child care, the most frequently mentioned that we can make is to ensure that all children who are source was word of mouth, 41%; followed by school, entitled to these very important early years education 18%; local authority was mentioned by 10%; and families’ places are given the opportunity to take them up. information services by 8%. Parents also mentioned local advertising, 8%; and health visitors, 6%. Lower I look forward to hearing the Minister’s proposals income families are more likely than higher income and ideas to ensure that all disadvantaged three and families to mention health visitors or doctors’ surgeries four-year-old children, who do not currently take up as their sources of information. That suggests that their free early years entitlement, are actively encouraged health services may be a particularly good way to to do so. provide these groups with information about child care and early years education. Will the Minister, therefore, 12.45 pm consider specific plans to use health services to provide disadvantaged groups with early years information? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Tim Loughton): I congratulate the hon. Member for The 2008 child care and early years survey of parents Stockport (Ann Coffey) on securing the time for this revealed that families living in deprived areas were less important debate. I agree with the vast majority of positive about the quality of child care provision than everything she has said. As she knows, I had the opportunity those in affluent areas. That is interesting as, according to go to Stockport in October when I spent a week as a to the latest 2009 Ofsted report, the quality of early social worker on the front line. I also visited some years provision is lower in areas of higher deprivation: schools in a child protection context. I saw the excellent the more deprived the area, the lower the number of services and dedicated professionals that she has in her good and outstanding providers. That raises the possibility authority. I applaud the trailblazing in many areas that parental perceptions may reflect real geographical dealing with children in Stockport, to which she alluded. variations in quality. Of course, only settings assessed by Ofsted as “good” or “outstanding” were allowed to The hon. Lady raised a couple of specific questions be used in the pilots for two-year-olds. I hope that in to which I will respond, and made one point about future, standards of settings will still be important extending the pupil premium. I am delighted that she criteria. It is vital that the quality of early years education has embraced the pupil premium so early. It is very is as good in deprived areas as it is in others. early days to say how we might extend or adapt it, given that the details were announced only yesterday. I will In some instances, local authorities can also deliver take that on board, but I do not think we will be the free entitlement through child minders, who have to adapting it straight away. She makes a fair point: to be part of a child-minding network and accredited. For ensure that it is useful as early as possible for all the example, if a child has specialist needs and requires a reasons she mentioned. higher level of one-to-one care, or a family needs flexible The provision of free early education is an area where hours to fit in with a particular situation such as shift we have broad cross-party agreement, perhaps because work, helping to match those families’ needs to a particular the case for investing in the early years has never been type of child care may help to improve the take-up of more compelling. This debate is timely: yesterday we the free entitlement. announced details of the new early intervention grant As I said, the clear message from the Stockport pilot that brings together funding for universal as well as was the success of the amount of support work with specialist services, and will be worth £2.212 billion in families. Offering places is not enough. I suggest to the 2011-12 and £2.297 billion in 2012-13. Minister that perhaps one way forward is for the Local authorities have built up considerable expertise Government’s pupil premium, which recognises and experience in the early years. They understand the disadvantage, to be introduced earlier for three and impact that Sure Start children’s centres have on four-year-olds, enabling that work to be done with communities, and they have shown considerable disadvantaged families. That would enable local authorities commitment to raising the quality of early years settings. to intervene earlier and work with families at the earliest It is that experience that gives me confidence that local possible stage. Although it would cost money now, it authorities are best placed to decide what is best for the would save money in the long run. It would also help to families in their communities. The early intervention target those children who are not classed as the 15% grant will give local authorities the freedom and flexibility most deprived, and so would not have benefited from to do that. the offer regarding two-year-olds, but who are still Early education is at the heart of our vision to disadvantaged and are not taking up places for three- support disadvantaged families. We know, as the hon. year-olds. Lady says, that it improves children’s school readiness The report by my right hon. Friend the Member for and longer-term cognitive and social development, which Birkenhead, endorsed by the Prime Minister, said that can especially benefit the most disadvantaged, helping we must ensure that today’s poor children do not become to improve social mobility and break out of inter- tomorrow’s poor adults. He said: generational cycles of poverty. The recent review on 241WH Early Years Education14 DECEMBER 2010 Early Years Education 242WH poverty and life chances published by the right hon. visitors becoming involved earlier and with children’s Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), mentioned by the centres helping to promote the scheme. The hon. Lady hon. Lady, underlined the importance of investing in was right to mention it. Our aim is to intervene early in the early years, and ensuring young children are not order to close the gaps that I have mentioned and to disadvantaged from birth. The review by the hon. Member ensure that every child has a fair chance of succeeding. for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) into how early We want to focus particular support on those disadvantaged intervention programmes can improve the lives of vulnerable families that can benefit most. There are a number of children is continuing and doing valuable work. ways in which we propose doing so. Although more five-year-olds are achieving well, there First, all families value choice and flexibility, yet we is still a 14% achievement gap between those in the most know that disadvantaged families have less choice of disadvantaged areas and the rest. We need to close that provider and are more likely to cite lack of availability gap. While 95% of children are benefiting from free of free places as a reason for not taking up their early education, as the hon. Lady mentioned, among entitlement. We are working with providers to explore the 5% not currently taking up free places are children ways of reducing the administrative burden and making from lower income families, those whose mothers do it easier to establish business, particularly in disadvantaged not work, and children from families experiencing multiple areas. We will consolidate and substantially reduce the disadvantage. The hon. Lady also mentioned families 200 pages of early-education guidance to local authorities, from BME backgrounds and others. She is absolutely to help free up local early years markets. right to ask how we can raise the level of awareness and Local authorities will be able to encourage new forms promote the information. Having given a commitment of provision. The Localism Bill, which was published to that 15-hour offer for three and four-year-olds, and yesterday, will give people new rights to bid to run local having now brought in that additional offer for the services. We seek to identify a national organisation most disadvantaged families for two-year-olds as well, that will be able to equip providers with the skills it is key that we make it work and ensure that we access needed to run their businesses more effectively. The the families at which it is most targeted. national implementation of the early years single funding Local authorities have a statutory duty to provide formula will ensure that local funding decisions are information to parents about early education, and we more transparent. We will use the forthcoming education must ensure that they are living up to that. I also believe Bill to clarify the position of maintained nursery schools there is a greater role for Sure Start children’s centres to and other nurseries in schools in being able to charge promote and reach out, particularly to support for additional nursery education beyond the free 15 hours, disadvantaged families more effectively. The hon. Lady to help increase choice for parents. also mentioned health visitors. We propose increasing the number of health visitors working out of Sure Start Secondly, despite an extremely difficult fiscal position, children’s centres by 4,200. They will be going across we have fulfilled the commitment that we made to early the threshold before birth, and intensively after birth. education in our programme for Government, by retaining They will work particularly with new parents, to check a universal entitlement to 15 hours of free education a on their parenting skills, to give them support in those week for all three and four-year-olds, as I mentioned early days and to make them aware of what other earlier. We did so not only because it was the right thing services are available. That will include the free entitlement. to do but because evidence shows that nursery education The hon. Lady is right to say that we need to promote it that is free at the point of delivery is the best way to more. ensure that disadvantaged families do not face barriers when trying to access it. Indeed, the experience of the As an example—I have discussed this with the hon. pathfinder local authorities shows that the increased Lady—I visited a family in Stockport. They were in time and the increased flexibilities that come with it desperate circumstances, living in a run-down house have been successful in attracting more families. On with hardly any furniture and no carpets, and literally average, 2% more three-year-olds accessed their free no food. There were four sons under the age of 12, from place for the first time; and those families who previously three fathers, and a loving but rather inadequate mother. did not take full advantage of it increased the number I visited the house with a very good social worker, who of hours that they took by 1.8%. had been working intensively with the family. The social worker and various other professionals had been in and From April, we will ensure through regulation that out of that house, but still things were not right. I asked all local authorities include a deprivation supplement in why those children had not been taken into care, although their early years single funding formula, which will doing so would raise all sorts of other problems. However mean that all disadvantaged children will attract a inadequate, that mother doted on her four young boys. higher level of funding. As a result, money will be However inadequate, those four young boys doted on provided for those children who need it most, as well as their mother; they relied on her and needed to stay with incentivising providers to offer free places to those her. If they had gone into care, I fear that the family families. When children start school, the pupil premium would have been split up, with all sorts of ramifications. will follow them from reception year onwards, and as I What struck me more than anything is that the mother said earlier we will consider whether it should be extended needed almost to be taken by the arm and marched to nursery education over time. down to the children’s centre to be told about good Thirdly, all the evidence shows that only quality parenting skills—let alone, if it had been earlier, about provision can have a real impact for young people. We the free entitlement to ensure that her kids were getting want to work with local authorities and providers in good quality care in the nursery—and marched down supporting it, and we will focus relentlessly on ensuring to the supermarket to be told what sort of food she that all children are able to access their free provision in should be buying for her children. There is scope for a quality setting. Central to a quality setting is a quality social workers working with such families, with health work force. We are committed by March to announcing 243WH Early Years Education14 DECEMBER 2010 Early Years Education 244WH

[Tim Loughton] The lessons learned from the two-year-old pilot will be central to that expansion. Outreach will be critical. a strategy to improve the quality of the early years work As shown in Stockport, the most disadvantaged families force and the development of a new generation of are far less likely to pick up the phone and ask, or to leaders for that sector. Local authorities such as Stockport turn up at children’s centres. The pilots showed that the are experienced in offering free places for two, three and most effective way to engage families was to go out and four-year-olds, and they understand well the connection find them, knock on their doors and then support them between quality and the outcome for children. I anticipate into a setting. We want Sure Start children’s centres to that they will want to draw on this expertise when play a prominent role in this work, helping to ensure making decisions about places. that the most challenged families take advantage of the Finally, despite the extremely challenging fiscal position, free entitlements, alongside other family support. Taken we have been able to commit ourselves to extending free together, we know that they can make a huge difference nursery education to all disadvantaged two-year-olds to children’s outcomes. by 2013. By getting this support earlier to those families Our reforms place early education squarely at the that will benefit most from it, we are confident that it centre of the Government’s efforts to combat child will help to increase participation at the ages of three poverty and increase social mobility. This week’s and four. Local authorities like Stockport have shown announcement on the early intervention grant will have that starting even earlier can have a significant and started the process of spending reviews in local authorities positive impact on language ability and on the parent-child across the country. The strength and growing maturity relationship. The expansion will start quickly. Subject of the sector means that it is well placed for the next to the approval of Parliament, measures in the education stage. Early years professionals will be able to take part Bill will enable Ministers to introduce an entitlement to in these reviews confident in the knowledge that they 15 hours of free provision a week for all disadvantaged have the full backing of the Government; confident two-year-olds. that, in local authority members and officers, they have In response to the hon. Lady’s concern about funding, an audience that recognises their achievements and is I am happy to confirm that we will provide £64 million proud of them; and confident, above all, that what they next year to enable local authorities to continue funding do really works. places for two-year-olds. In addition, the Department has set aside £4 million for 2011-12 to trial new approaches I am enormously grateful for the support that the to delivering the entitlement. Although funding for the hon. Lady has given to this agenda today. She has raised early intervention grant is not ring-fenced, and although some important concerns, and I hope that she is happy decisions will be made locally, there will be a statutory that the Government echo them. The steps that we have entitlement for two-year-olds to access this education taken underline the importance of early education in from 2013. Extending entitlement to disadvantaged two- getting the most disadvantaged members of society to year-olds is a key strategy for increasing take-up at the gain access to early years education for their children. age of three. Total funding will rise to £223 million in The Government have made a substantial financial 2012-13 to enable local authorities to build towards that commitment. We wish to ensure that it is taken up and entitlement. Funding will rise further, with an additional that it works, because it is the right thing to do. £300 million by 2014-15. 245WH 14 DECEMBER 2010 Sentencing (Green Paper) 246WH

Sentencing (Green Paper) rehabilitation and deterrence? Given what the previous 13 years have left us, I completely agree with him—criminals 12.58 pm have had it far too easy in prison. The Government’s payback proposals will ensure that prisoners go out and Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is a pleasure work. When a compensation order is passed in court, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I thank they will no longer be able to say, “We haven’t got the Mr Speaker for being kind enough to grant me a debate money; we are on welfare.” The Secretary of State’s on the Green Paper entitled “Breaking the cycle: effective proposal will ensure that they have to work, earn their punishment, rehabilitation and sentencing of offenders”. keep and pay back the money. That must be a good Crime and the punishment of criminals is important thing. for my constituents. Although I appreciate the Government’s good intentions, I am not sure that the Green Paper hits Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is right about that, the appropriate nails on the head. Importantly, it says but prisoners need to work more in prison. On page 9 of some constructive and helpful things. For example, it the Green Paper, I am pleased to see the coalition says that prisons should become places of hard work Government say: and industry and that community sentences should “Prisoners will increasingly face the tough discipline of regular punish offenders and make them pay back to society working hours. This has been lacking in prison regimes for too and the taxpayer. It wants offenders to make a greater long.” financial reparation to victims and the taxpayer, and I say, “Hear, hear” to that. victims to engage with the criminal justice system on their own terms. It would also like offenders to get off Neil Carmichael: The Secretary of State for Justice drugs for good and to pay their way in prison, and to has indicated that that is one of his intentions. I have prevent young people from offending. also taken him to Stroud where we looked at a payback Although the Green Paper contains laudable aims, scheme, which was highly effective. He spoke to people the mood music behind it does not hit the right notes there and he got the impression, as we all did, that the for my constituents, who believe that there is a proper scheme was definitely working. Does my hon. Friend place in society for prison and that prison works. Prison agree that that type of scheme should be pursued? did not work as effectively as it might under the previous Government, largely because far too many prisoners Mr Hollobone: It should be pursued, yes, but not for lived in overcrowded conditions and far too many sentences persistent and prolific offenders. Far too many nasty were too short. Basically, my constituents are of the people commit all sorts of horrible crimes and never view that prison works when it is managed properly. find themselves in prison. On page 6 of the Green Paper, the coalition Government say: Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I welcome this “Recent evidence suggests there is a group of around 16,000 opportunity to say what my constituents think, which active offenders at any one time, who each have over 75 previous is, of course, that they want law and order. They recognise convictions”. that the prison system is there to deal with the worst The document goes on: offenders. Surely it is right that we tackle reoffending, “On average they have been to prison 14 times, usually for less which is one of the key thrusts of the Green Paper. than 12 months, with nine community sentences and 10 fines.” Does my hon. Friend not agree that the Secretary of State for Justice has outlined a strategy that is consistent Prison works but only when people are sent to prison with that objective? for an appropriate amount of time. It is clear to all of us that short prison sentences do not work. My solution is Mr Hollobone: No, I do not agree with my hon. to send these very nasty 16,000 people to prison for Friend. Yes, it is right that reoffending rates are far too longer so that they can be rehabilitated before being let high and that we face a real problem in tackling them. out into the community. None the less, when prison works effectively, it reduces reoffending rates, and I shall come back to that later. Rehman Chishti: With regard to short sentences, is it not the case that a prisoner who is on six months will do Neil Carmichael: We have twice as many people in three months and be transferred from one prison to prison as the French. Do you think that we are twice as another and then another? Therefore, there is no effective naughty or that our system is not quite good enough? rehabilitation within the system. If the prisoner stays in one prison, he will have management and structure Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. I do not think rather than being pushed from one prison to another. anything. You must refer to the hon. Gentleman. Does my hon. Friend not agree that that must be changed? Neil Carmichael: My apologies. Mr Hollobone: That is an excellent point with which I Mr Hollobone: I am grateful for that intervention. I entirely agree. have some statistics that I shall use later about how we do not have enough people in prison in this country, Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Does my hon. Friend which relates to the point that my hon. Friend has just not agree that there is a danger in just looking at made. statistics, in that we do not know or understand the level of criminality that lies behind them? If we look at Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): the figures and then the length of sentences, we can see Does my hon. Friend not agree that we have to look that they refer to prolific, but low-level offenders. The at overall sentencing in three respects—punishment, Green Paper seeks to address the situation of those 247WH Sentencing (Green Paper)14 DECEMBER 2010 Sentencing (Green Paper) 248WH

[Anna Soubry] of a year. We put them on community service for a couple of occasions, but when they come back the third criminals who are not the serious criminals—serious time, we should put them away for five years so that criminals will continue to be sent to prison for a long they can get the proper training and education that they time. This is about short-term sentences of under 18 months. need in prison.” What would my hon. Friend say to That is why I commend the Green Paper—or I will do that? in due course—to the House and to my hon. Friend. Mr Hollobone: I would say that my hon. Friend is Mr Hollobone: I disagree with my hon. Friend. I spot on. He has provided me with a helpful link to the understand that we are not talking about serious offences. next part of my speech which is about the length of None the less, it is very serious to my constituents that sentences. In 2006, the Home Office report “Re-offending someone can be convicted 75 times. That person is very of adults” concluded that nasty and is committing lots of very low-level crimes and they deserve to spend a long time in prison. “re-offending rates are lower among offenders discharged from a custodial sentence of at least a year (49 per cent.) than among those discharged from a shorter custodial sentence (70 per cent.)...This Anna Soubry: Let us take that example. That could be suggests that custodial sentences of at least a year are more someone who is, for example, committing shop thefts effective in reducing re-offending.” on a regular basis. The maximum sentence for something It is worth repeating those figures; prisoners with such as that would be around 12 months at the most, or sentences of up to one year had a reoffending rate of 18 months if they were very unfortunate. This is a 70%, while in the case of prisoners with sentences persistent but very low-level offender. Clearly, in the of more than two years the reoffending rate dropped to example that my hon. Friend puts forward, prison is not 49%. The report also showed that for people who had working, because the person keeps on committing crimes spent more than four years in prison, the reoffending and keeps on going back to prison. It is to end that rate was merely 35%. Looking at those figures, my revolving door that we are doing the things that have constituents would say, “Well, that says to us that we been laid out in the Green Paper. That person is not need to put these nasty people behind bars for longer, necessarily a nasty person; they are not violent otherwise so that they can be rehabilitated properly before being they would go away for a lot longer. Those who steal released and being at large again”. from shops are exactly the sort of people that we are addressing. I also want to address this myth that we have too many people in prison in this country. In terms of Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Interventions absolute numbers, yes, we have a relatively high prison should be shorter. population, but we are a relatively highly populated country. If we look at the number of prisoners that we have for every 100,000 people, we are nearer the average Mr Hollobone: I am sorry, but that person is a nasty but still quite high. However, the only meaningful measure person. Just because someone is not violent does not of the size of the prison population is how many mean that they are not nasty. I contend that the reason prisoners there are in relation to the number of crimes that they are reoffending is that they never serve their committed. On that measure, I would suggest that the sentence in full. Even if someone is sentenced to 18 months evidence is startling—we do not have the highest prison for shoplifting, no one in this country will ever serve population in the western world, but the lowest. Compared such a sentence. They might be sentenced to that, but with the US, Canada, Australia and the EU as a whole, the chances are that they will be out reoffending within the UK has the lowest prison population of all. For six months. My contention is that such people need to every 1,000 crimes committed in the UK, we have be in jail for at least a year to enable proper rehabilitation approximately 13 prisoners, compared with approximately to take place. 15 in Canada and Australia, well over 20 for the EU as a whole and a whopping 166 in the US. Rehman Chishti: My hon. Friend is spot on in terms of what went on from April 2007 to April 2010 when some 80,000 prisoners were let out on early release. Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Does my hon. Friend That was absolutely shocking. When a sentence is passed, agree that sentencing and the number of people in we must ensure that it is fully complied with. prison should be determined by the sentences rather than the ability of the Government to house those Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. prisoners, and that it is the responsibility of Government The previous Government made an almighty mess of to ensure that suitable premises are available if sentences this. Even though I disagree with the main thrust of this are passed? Green Paper, I commend the coalition Government for taking an organised and proactive interest in trying to Mr Hollobone: I very much agree with my hon. address this issue sensibly, which the previous Government Friend. Frankly, it is a national scandal that we do not did not do. have enough prison capacity. When we have troops living in tents in theatre in Afghanistan receiving money Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. per meal that is less than the money per meal provided Friend has been extremely generous in giving way. The for a prisoner in a UK jail, it is a disgrace that we are fact that four Members have already contributed to this not making better use of the redundant military facilities debate from the Back Benches shows how important that we have in this country to house a bigger prison the issue is. Prison officers came to my surgery and said, population. With a bit of imagination and, frankly, “What we need, Mr Bone, is not these short sentences some political backbone, we could achieve a lot more. 249WH Sentencing (Green Paper)14 DECEMBER 2010 Sentencing (Green Paper) 250WH

Mr Bone: That is the very point that I wanted to serious crime, they should go to prison for a long time? address today. My constituency neighbours my hon. We need to get this issue into perspective, because we Friend’s and it contains Her Majesty’s Prison are actually talking about reducing the prison population Wellingborough, which now appears to be under threat by 3,000 and not, as my hon. Friend suggested, about of closure. HMP Wellingborough is under market testing. simply having a namby-pamby approach to prisons. However, the market testing has been abandoned or put back. HMP Wellingborough has gone from being a Mr Hollobone: Yes, but my contention is that there rather poor prison to being the best category C prison are some unpleasant people out there who will commit in the east midlands. Does my hon. Friend agree that we crime unless they are prevented from doing so by being should not be considering closing that type of prison? put in prison. When half the crimes committed in this country are being committed by 10% of the offenders, Mr Hollobone: I agree with my hon. Friend. However, those 10% of offenders do not need to be out there prison conditions are far too luxurious. I think that it is doing good works on the street; they need to be behind 1,500 prisoners who have Sky TV in their cells. I have bars so that they cannot reoffend. lots of constituents in Kettering who cannot afford Sky TV.It is a scandal that prisoners receive a bigger allowance The concluding part of my remarks is that although I for their daily meals than our troops in Afghanistan. In recognise the good intentions of the Ministry of Justice many cases, prison accommodation is too comfortable. in trying to reduce reoffending—I do not doubt the Ministry’s efforts in that regard—the obvious thing to On the other hand, I accept that when a prison is do to reduce prison numbers is sort out the 11,500 overcrowded it makes rehabilitation more difficult and foreign national prisoners in our jails. The number of it is appropriate that we have the right number of cells such prisoners doubled under the previous Government. for the prisoners whom we need to house. However, there must be a limit on the quality of the accommodation I have raised this issue time and time again on the on which we are currently spending lots of money. Floor of the House and frankly we are not getting very far. One of the countries that has a high number of its The other point that I wanted to draw to the House’s nationals as prisoners in our country is Nigeria. When I attention is the fact that the country with the lowest last looked at the figures, I saw that there were something prison rate—the UK—has the highest crime rate. Is like 752 Nigerian nationals in prison in our country. that a coincidence? I do not think so. We have more Effectively, we are paying £30 million a year for incarcerating than 10,000 crimes for every 100,000 people. The country those individuals. The Nigerian National Assembly has with the highest prison rate, which is the US, has the been looking at this issue since 2007. Why are we not lowest crime rate; it has about 4,500 crimes for every hauling in the Nigerian ambassador or speaking to the 100,000 people. Canada, which is the country with the Nigerian President to get this arrangement sorted out, second lowest prison rate, has the second highest crime because sending 752 Nigerians back to Nigeria would rate. The EU has the second highest prison rate and the go a long way to freeing up the 3,000 prison places that second lowest crime rate. That is not a coincidence. My my hon. Friend the Minister wants to find? hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has done a lot of very good work in this House in highlighting Rehman Chishti: I fully endorse what my hon. Friend these statistics, which I think blow apart this namby-pamby has said with regard to foreign nationals. Linked to that approach to having soft community sentences to tackle point, what must change is the procedure that is applied the behaviour of some very nasty people. to removal orders and the time that it takes for somebody Rehman Chishti: I wanted to make a point with to be removed from this country. At the moment, there regard to community penalties. I have been at the is a disjointed approach and that must change, so that criminal Bar and prosecuted and defended many cases. once someone has been through the courts, their removal Is it not the case that the Green Paper should be must be swift. welcomed, because community penalties will be tied in with greater use of curfew orders? We should give Mr Hollobone: As usual, my hon. Friend is quite offenders hard work during the day, make sure that it is right. However, now we have the Prime Minister launching done and that it is hard work, but we must also ensure a campaign on the front page of the Daily Mail to say that their liberty on Friday and Saturday nights is that repatriating foreign national prisoners is one of his completely curtailed, so that rather than have them top priorities. Please can we have a joined-up approach committing crimes, going out until the early hours and across this Government—across the Ministry of Justice, making a nuisance of themselves, we should make the Foreign Office and the Home Office—to ensure that greater use of curfew orders, which is what this Green we actually get these people back to their own countries? Paper is all about. Then we will create the space in prison that we need to rehabilitate people properly, reduce the overall prison Mr Hollobone: I agree with my hon. Friend that if we population if need be and stop people reoffending. must have these community penalties, they need to be tough and unpleasant. Frankly, the gangs that I have 1.18 pm seen taking part in these sort of activities have not been that disciplined, were not working that hard and I very The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice much doubt the utility of the work that they were (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I congratulate my hon. Friend doing. the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing this debate on the Government’s Green Paper “Breaking Neil Carmichael: Does my hon. Friend not recognise the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and that the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Sentencing of Offenders”, which my right hon. and Justice has said that there is a place for prison, people learned Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of should go to prison and that, if they have committed a State for Justice laid before Parliament last week. 251WH Sentencing (Green Paper)14 DECEMBER 2010 Sentencing (Green Paper) 252WH

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly] My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering referred to the mood music of the Green Paper, so let me make it Given the brevity of this debate, the many and varied clear that prison is the right place for serious and contributions that we have had from hon. Members dangerous offenders, and that we will ensure that sufficient have all been very helpful and show the complexity of prison places are always available. I shall come to the some of the issues that we are dealing with. The Green detail in due course, but we do not propose in the Green Paper’s proposals are the initial conclusions of the Paper to reduce the ability of any sentencer to send a wide-ranging assessment of rehabilitation and sentencing serious offender to prison, nor do we propose to introduce, that we announced in our programme for government as the previous Government did, any new early-release back in May. We are now consulting widely on the schemes. proposals set out in the Green Paper and this debate is a We want offenders to be suitably punished for their welcome opportunity to discuss some of those proposals. crimes. Through both the tough discipline of regular I shall start with the point about foreign nationals working hours in prison, and more strenuous and that was made by my hon. Friend the Member for demanding work in the community, we aim to ensure Kettering, and about which he has long been concerned. that offenders work hard and that there is greater use of I can confirm that as we take forward the Green Paper tough curfew requirements. proposals, we will consider what more we can do to We want prisons to be places where offenders learn reduce the number of foreign national offenders. about the life of work and about the routine of getting Foreign national prisoners make up 13% of the prison up in the morning and doing a full day’s meaningful population, and the figure has doubled over the past 10 work. Too many offenders lead chaotic lives, and too years. That is not an effective use of expensive prison many of them have never done a day’s work. By giving places if foreign nationals could be removed from the offenders the experience of work, we can put order into country. There is, however, a balance to be struck. their lives, better prepare them for life outside prison, Foreign nationals who commit serious offences should increase their job prospects and reduce the likelihood of be punished by prison sentences; victims of crime would their reoffending. expect nothing less. But when foreign national offenders We also want offenders to pay back to their victims. do not need to be in prison, or when they could spend The Green Paper includes proposals for increased reparation some of their prison terms in prisons in their own to victims through a greater use of restorative justice, countries, we should do everything we can to ensure under which an offender can make good the wrong he that they are not a burden on our prisons. has imposed on others. We want restorative justice to be With that objective in mind, we are looking to expand victim-led and not offender-led. Restorative justice can prisoner transfer agreements with other countries, so benefit both parties. It can provide reparation to victims that a prisoner can serve some of their sentence in their and help offenders face up to the realities of their crime home country whenever possible. We are also looking and its impact on victims—and, as a result, prevent to divert some foreign nationals—for example, those them from offending in future. who commit immigration document offences—away We also want to implement the Prisoners’ Earnings from the criminal justice system altogether, if they agree Act 1996 to ensure that more offenders directly compensate to be removed from the United Kingdom. We are the victims of crime through deductions in prisoners’ considering other options, and would very much welcome wages. For lower-level offences, we want to increase the further ideas in response to the Green Paper. use of fines and compensation orders, so that offenders My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor make greater financial reparation to both victims and made it clear last week that the current criminal justice the taxpayer. An increased use of compensation orders system does not deliver what really matters. Society has would mean that more victims would receive financial a right to expect the system to protect it. We all expect compensation directly from the offender. offenders to be punished effectively, but we should also We also want to take a new approach to offender expect criminals to be reformed, so that when they rehabilitation, getting more offenders off benefits and finish their sentences they do not simply return to their into honest work. That is partly about the routine of life of crime and create more misery for victims. work, but crucially it is about taking action to get Despite record spending, the criminal justice system offenders off drugs so as to break the cycle of offending falls short, in that about half of released offenders go to feed a drug habit. The Government are committed to on to reoffend within a year—and the reoffending rates rehabilitating offenders from drug dependency to drug-free for young people are even worse, with three quarters of lives. We want prisons to be places where offenders offenders sentenced to youth custody reoffending within tackle their drug misuse, not places where their problems a year. Those high rates are unacceptable to this get worse, and we are therefore working on preventing Government. If we do not prevent people, especially drugs from getting into prisons. We are also working young people, from offending, they will become the with the Department of Health to reshape drug treatment. prolific offenders of the next decade. Within prisons, we will pilot recovery wings, which will The Green Paper sets out how we propose to break link more effectively with community services, and we that destructive cycle of crime and to ensure that offenders will focus more on supporting offenders to be drug free. make amends to victims and communities for the harm We also want to look at the number of offenders in that they have caused. That requires a radically different prison who suffer from a mental illness. For some approach—a system that protects the public by punishing people with mental health issues, prison is simply not the guilty and reducing reoffending, makes offenders an appropriate place. In some cases, better outcomes face up to their responsibilities and pay back to victims can be achieved by diverting low-level offenders into and society, and makes punishment hard work, both in intensive treatment for mental health problems in the prison and in the community. community. We are working with both the Department 253WH Sentencing (Green Paper)14 DECEMBER 2010 Sentencing (Green Paper) 254WH of Health and the Home Office to ensure that front-line Rehman Chishti: Does the Minister agree that it is services identify such people. We have proposals to completely and utterly wrong that in the past 13 years create a more effective and robust community sentence, we should have had more legislation than in the past with greater flexibility for the provisions of mental 100 years? Does he also agree that we should make health requirements. If we can get treatment right, we legislation only when it is necessary, rather than for the can help to reduce offending. sake of it? The Green Paper signals a transformation in rehabilitation financing and delivery. Significant amounts Mr Djanogly: I do. The figure of more than 3,000 of public money have been spent on trying to rehabilitate new offences comes to mind. We had the situation in offenders, without properly holding services to account which a new offence was being created before the previous for their results. We will reward independent providers one had commenced. for achieving a reduction in reoffending, and will pay We want to simplify the sentencing framework and for that with the savings that they generate within the make it more comprehensible for the public. We also criminal justice system. We will introduce more competition want to enhance judicial discretion, to allow the judges across offender management services, to drive up standards and magistrates who hear the cases to make the most and deliver value for money for the taxpayer. We will appropriate decisions on sentencing within the legal increase the freedom for public service providers and framework set by Parliament. front-line professionals to innovate in their work with offenders. The payment-by-results system will be trialled I accept that some people, not least my hon. Friend in at least six new projects over the next two years, and the Member for Kettering, want to see longer sentences, the principles will be fully rolled out by 2015. but we need to be proportionate. We could not I turn now to sentencing, which is an issue that my accommodate the much longer sentences that he suggests hon. Friend the Member for Kettering mentioned. We without raising taxes to build more prisons. know that a sentencing framework must provide courts Sentences have, however, got longer and longer over with a range of options for punishing and rehabilitating the past couple of decades, and for many years offenders offenders and protecting the public. The problem is that have not spent their sentence in custody. We do not the current framework has been developed in an ad hoc propose to make fundamental changes to determinate fashion over the past 10 years, leaving it overly complex sentences. At present, offenders serving a determinate and difficult to administer. We should not underestimate sentence spend half of their sentence in custody and how complex the law has become. The Court of Appeal half on licence in the community. If an offender breaches spends a significant amount of time on cases in which the condition of their licence, they may be returned to sentencing law is unclear. If the law is often difficult for prison. We recognise— judges to understand, it is not surprising that the public have considerable difficulties. Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. 255WH 14 DECEMBER 2010 School Sports (Colchester) 256WH

School Sports (Colchester) “When I left for Australia three weeks ago, Education Secretary Michael Gove was being furiously assaulted by just about everybody who understands the purpose and value of sport in schools. From 1.30 pm Olympic champions to head teachers to concerned parents, they lined up to attack Gove’s crass and myopic decision to scrap Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Although school sport direct funding for school sports partnerships. partnerships are nationwide, I wish to concentrate on just one partnership in my constituency as an example There are 450 such partnerships across England, and these alliances of sports colleges, primary, secondary and special schools to highlight how important they are for every school have broadened choices and increased opportunities for young and every child in the country. I will first set out the people to take part in sport. The scheme has been stunningly national scene. The Government want to save £162 million successful in achieving its bold objectives. Yet now, at a time when by scrapping the highly successful school sport partnerships. the nation is seeking to establish an enduring legacy from the That is a significant sum, but in the context of the 2012 Olympics, Gove has decided to imperil all its gain with a nation’s total public spending it is not, and cutting it piece of knee-jerk, doctrinaire cost-cutting. would be a false saving. In common with far too many members of this Cabinet, Gove The sum is equivalent to about half the combined seems to regard sport as the sweaty pastime of tiresome oiks. The fact that it promotes a healthy lifestyle, reduces juvenile crime, wage bills for the two premiership football clubs that combats dependence on drugs and expands educational aspirations played last night—Manchester United and Arsenal. seems not to have crossed his radar. So he swings his little axe in a The total wage bill for all the premiership clubs, boosted pathetic attempt to appear decisive. by the vast sums they receive from television, comes to Three weeks on, and with ignorance no longer an excuse, the more than £1.3 billion, according to research conducted wretched Gove is busily trying to present abject retreat as generous by Deloitte and kindly provided to me by the House of compromise—” Commons Library. Are we seriously saying that the well-being of around Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. The hon. 8 million school children in their developing years and, Gentleman knows that he should not refer to the Secretary perhaps more importantly, their prospects for better of State by name. He should refer to him as Secretary of health in adulthood, are considered to have such a low State or by his constituency. priority that cutting that money from the education budget is acceptable? Bob Russell: Mr Chairman, I am fully aware of that, I propose that, in the spirit of joined-up government, but I am quoting from a newspaper article, so those are the Government should get a grip on the mismanagement not my words. They are the words of wisdom of Mr Patrick of football in this country. Professional football is awash Collins, who continued: with money, but it is being squandered on grotesque “Yet the assault continues. I doubt it will be halted this side of salaries and on the huge amounts of money that are lost the first Cabinet reshuffle.” from the game and find their way to parasitic agents Other than giving the Secretary of State the courtesy of who contribute nothing to football and instead bleed it. putting the title “Mr” before his name, I agree with I urge the coalition Government to introduce a football every word of what Mr Collins said. I disapprove of the school sports fund—FSSF—by placing a 10% levy on manner in which the Secretary of State was addressed the turnover of premiership football clubs. That would in the article, Sir, but I was quoting from it. comfortably cover the £162 million needed to fund the school sport partnerships. After all, many of the young It is also worth noting how the proposals to axe participants will be wearing replica shirts of clubs such school sports funding are viewed by Wenda Donaldson, as Manchester United and Arsenal. In that way, at least the director of community sport at the Australian Sports some of the huge sums of money sloshing around the Commission, who observed: premiership would be put to more beneficial purposes “I am absolutely devastated to hear of the cuts to the School than lining the pockets of the few. It would fund the Sport Partnership models. I am astounded that such an amazing future fitness, health and sport prospects of every child and world-leading initiative has been lost to the communities they serviced.” in the country. It would support the many, rather than being kept by the very few. Well, they have not yet been lost; hopefully, today’s I urge the Minister to take forward my suggestion as debate will help to save them. a means of saving the school sport partnerships at nil From the world stage, let me now concentrate at a cost to the public purse. I am confident that my proposed truly grass-roots local level. There are 12 sport hubs in FSSF would be widely welcomed by our schools and by the area covered by the Colchester-Blackwater school those responsible for the nation’s health and sports partnership, involving 86 schools, the majority of them development. Cross-departmental determination involving in my constituency of Colchester. I will concentrate on the Department for Education, the Department of Health, just one sport hub, the one centred on the Colchester the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the academy under the inspirational leadership of school Treasury could quickly bring that to fruition by the time sport co-ordinator Zoe Ford, and the seven primary the £162 million is due to be cut from the education schools that it serves. They are: from the Greenstead budget. I shall personally bring the proposal to the estate, St Andrew’s Infants school and St Andrew’s attention of the Prime Minister. Junior school, and Hazelmere Infants school and Hazelmere Before speaking about the Colchester academy sports Junior school; from the St Anne’s estate, Willow Brook hub and the seven primary schools it covers, I will primary, a fresh-start school formerly known as St Anne’s conclude the national overview by quoting in full an primary; Parsons Heath primary; and Roach Vale primary. excellent article by the award-winning journalist Mr Patrick Last month, I visited Roach Vale primary to meet Collins, chief sports writer for The Mail on Sunday, some of those involved in the school sport programme who wrote in his column two days ago: and witnessed the wonderful sight of youngsters playing 257WH School Sports (Colchester)14 DECEMBER 2010 School Sports (Colchester) 258WH football after school with two sports coaches, assisted academy family participated in inter-school competitions; by volunteers. I sensed that I was watching the big the figure is now 100%, with 67% competing in at least society in action. What I saw clearly showed the success three or more competitions each year. of school sport partnerships. The number of competitions and festivals has increased From Mrs Ford, Mr Tom Evans, who is the assistant from six in 2005-06 to 18 in the current academic year. partnership development manager of the Colchester- Every pupil in the Colchester academy family will attend Blackwater school sport partnership, and Mr Barry the academy at least once for a tournament or festival in Hersom, principal of Colchester academy, established the course of the year. A virtual multi-skills athletics in September this year from the former Sir Charles competition—that is how it was described to me—has Lucas arts college, I have been provided with the following been developed which allows schools and individual information: it is a record of success, success, success, pupils to compete with each other without leaving their and of achievement, achievement, achievement. It would own school site, and with relatively little equipment. It be extreme folly—an own goal, no less—for the coalition has proved popular with all school years, from 1 to 6. Government to end funding for school sport partnerships. I am assured that greater competition has increased Four years ago, the average time spent on high-quality confidence and enjoyment in physical activity. Festivals physical education in the Colchester academy family of have provided pupils with a broader and extended schools was 118 minutes, but it is now 147 minutes. Mrs curriculum through the introduction of new sporting Ford, as is the case with school sport co-ordinators activities. I am further told that the extra competition working for the other sport hubs, has worked alongside has helped pupils develop their spiritual, moral, social teachers in primary schools to increase their subject and cultural development. I know that the Secretary of knowledge and confidence in teaching sport and physical State for Education and the Prime Minister would education. That is of great importance when looking at approve of that. the holistic approach to education. With the 2012 Olympics less than 20 months away, I am advised that, as a direct result of the higher the sports hub has enabled all schools to link their quality of sport on offer and more time spent on PE, curriculum to that major world event. There are further there have been large improvements in the quality of statistics to prove the value, in every meaning of the teaching; that pupils’ attainment has increased and the word, of this school sport partnership—I am sure that quality of their learning has improved; that they are this is true across the country. A big bonus has been the more physically active; and that they are adopting healthier increase in the number of pupils in each year group who lifestyles. Those are four positive points. have participated in one or more community sports, dance or multi-skills clubs with links to the particular Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the school. For the Colchester academy family, in 2006-07, hon. Gentleman on securing this timely and prescient it was 21% of pupils; last year, it was 51% of pupils. debate. What he has described is, as he said at the That would never have happened without the school beginning of his speech, a microcosm that reflects the sport partnership. macrocosm of what is happening across the country. I can speak from personal experience because in Scunthorpe It is also significant that non-sporty pupils, to coin a I appointed a further education sports co-ordinator phrase, have become involved in an activity that they who was part of the network of school sports co-ordination enjoy. There are greater links with community clubs, that helped to move things forward. I applaud the hon. therefore helping to promote community cohesion—a Gentleman for the way he is bringing the matter forward. further example of the big society in action. Another astonishing statistic—a direct result of the Colchester Bob Russell: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s academy school sport partnership—is that currently intervention, because he had personal experience of the 97% of pupils are actively involved in sports volunteering issue before entering the House. He can see how the and leadership; five years ago, the figure was 28%. partnerships have been a great success story—not only My concluding observations, which were put to me in in his constituency and mine, but across the country. advance of today’s debate by the Colchester academy They have brought the education family of different school sport partnership, are contained in the document, schools and different age groups together in a way that I “Colchester Blackwater School Sport Partnership”. Pupils have not witnessed previously. feel greater self-worth and make a positive contribution Clearly, the point I made before the intervention has to the school and wider community. Classes are more significance for the NHS. Could the Minister state what cohesive as pupils work together as a motivational discussions were held with the Secretary of State for team. I am tempted to say that perhaps all political Health before it was announced that school sport funding parties in the House of Commons might want to engage was to be axed, and what discussions were held with the such services. Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport? The leaders’ programme helps with the transition In addition to what happens in schools, the leadership between infants and junior schools, as leaders provide shown by school sport co-ordinators has led to improved excellent role models for younger children. There is links with local clubs. This follows on from the point better social cohesion as young pupils mix with old, made by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). pupil-organised activities result in improved behaviour Coaches have been invited to provide taster sessions for at lunch time and pupils’ moral and social development pupils, and that has led to two-way improvement for the improves. pupils and the clubs. Abandoning school sport partnerships would be a The notion that schools are not taking part in team huge mistake and would affect today’s young people, games or inter-school competitions is wrong. The figures including my two grandsons who are currently at primary show that, four years ago, 56% of pupils in the Colchester school and my granddaughter who will be starting 259WH School Sports (Colchester)14 DECEMBER 2010 School Sports (Colchester) 260WH

[Bob Russell] in school drops off a cliff when children leave school. We must engender the ethos of the good of sport in school in the year of the Olympics. I recognise the state children of all ages, and that must be carried forward of the nation’s economy, but I would argue that we into adulthood. should find ways of ensuring that we do not lose the As the hon. Gentleman said, sport is good not only highly successful school sport partnerships. for physical health but for mental agility, its socialising I opened this debate with a suggestion as to how benefits, the community engagement that it brings about, funding could be provided in future years, and I urge teamwork experiences and the personal development of the Minister to discuss that with colleagues across the children. It is not a question of being in any way against Government. sport or in any way trying to undermine it. We want more sport, better quality sport and more sustained sport in schools. It is a question of how, not if, and it is 1.44 pm important to make that absolutely clear. That underlies The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education the changes that we are looking to make in how sport is (Tim Loughton): It is a pleasure to serve for the second delivered. time today under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. This We are aware of the good work being done in many debate is very different from the earlier one. school sport partnerships, which have played an important I ought to start by saying to the hon. Member for part in helping to re-establish physical education and Colchester (Bob Russell) that we must stop meeting like sport as a central part of school life. The Thurstable/ this. This is the second time in the past couple of Colchester-Blackwater partnership is a good example months that I have responded to an Adjournment debate of that. that he has instigated. I congratulate him on securing My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for this important debate. He opened it and kept the flow Education and I pay tribute to the work of Adam going with his usual colourful language. Never let it be Finch, partnership development manager at the said that he is a man who only brings problems to this Thurstable/Colchester-Blackwater partnership, and his House, because he started his speech with an interesting team for the excellent work that they have done improving solution that would involve the football premiership in the standards of PE and sport for their young people. I the cost of school sport partnerships. I am sure that my was especially pleased that an impressive number of hon. Friend the Minister for Sport and the Olympics young people are taking part in intra-school sporting will read that practical suggestion in the record, and I competitions. However, although that partnership is am happy to ensure that it is brought to his attention. performing well in a number of areas, in some year The hon. Gentleman’s speech was also quite original. groups it is still not delivering inter-school competition Not only was he described as being timely and prescient—I at a level that the Government would like to see and the believe that that was how the hon. Member for Scunthorpe numbers taking part in competitive sport, which we (Nic Dakin) described him—but he was also an unashamed would like to be better promoted, have fallen slightly plagiarist, in that he used a large part of his speech to below the national average in years 6, 7 and 8. quote from yesterday’s Daily Mail. If only making speeches were that easy. Bob Russell: Did I understand the Minister correctly? Do those figures relate to what was happening within Bob Russell: May I correct the Minister? It was what we call the Colchester-Blackwater school sport Sunday’s paper, not yesterday’s. partnership? If what he has said is correct, does he accept that those figures are still vastly better than they Tim Loughton: I am grateful for that. We would not were four or five years ago, before the partnerships want the good burghers of The Mail on Sunday not to started, and that removing the partnerships will do get credit for the piece. considerable damage to the figures that he has just I know that the hon. Gentleman is a committed quoted? campaigner in his constituency and in this House, and it is clear from his speech that he believes passionately in Tim Loughton: In terms of the participation and rates the work of the Colchester-Blackwater school sport and where the information has come from, the hon. partnership, which is also known as the Thurstable Gentleman gave those figures. One does not deny that. I school sport partnership. Among other flowery references am saying that the experience and the figures are patchy that he quoted from the article in The Mail on Sunday, in different parts of the country and in his constituency. he quoted a phrase that suggested that my right hon. Some partnerships appear to be achieving a great deal Friend the Secretary of State for Education considers more than others. I am not trying to take away from sport to be where progress has been made. We question the level of “the sweaty pastime of tiresome oiks.” competitive sport, the quality of the sport and its May I make it clear again today, as I did in a debate sustainability and whether partnerships are changing last week on school sport, and as the Secretary of State the ethos of sport in schools, which is what we need to himself made clear, that he and I and this Government do. are absolutely committed to the promotion of sport Let us remember that when the school sports partnership among the population in general and among our school-age scheme was first funded from 2003, it was never intended citizens in particular? We want them to be involved with to be a permanent arrangement; it was all about promoting sport, particularly high-quality competitive sport, as sport from a low level and, hopefully, being able to set early and as intensively as possible, and, most importantly, schools free to be able to carry that work forward. we want that involvement to be sustained through the Seven years and £2.4 billion on, we cannot afford school years and into adulthood. Too often, the experience to continue that level of funding. We are questioning 261WH School Sports (Colchester)14 DECEMBER 2010 School Sports (Colchester) 262WH whether we are getting best value for money and whether right one to ensure that the next generation of young we can get better bang for our buck, looking at alternative people enjoys and benefits from sport as never before, ways of providing sport in schools. That is what this is while laying the foundations for a lasting sporting legacy all about: not if, but how. from 2012. From figures on sports where participation has fallen I have offered to meet a wider group of young sports and those relating to the number of schools offering ambassadors, after we announce our alternative proposals, particular sports, it is an indisputable fact that, after the to try to engage them fully in the way ahead. commitment of £2.4 billion, the number of schools providing gymnastics, rounders, netball, hockey and Bob Russell: Will the Minister give way? rugby union has fallen. The number of schools offering swimming has not changed: it was 84% in 2003-04, Tim Loughton: I will, although probably at the expense before £2.4 billion was spent, and it is 84% now, still. of being able to finish my speech. There has been no increase in participation in a significant number of sports. Bob Russell: The Minister’s response will not be The taxpayer is entitled to better for the not recognised by the people in the Colchester academy inconsiderable sum that has been spent in the past seven family, whom I have met and on whose behalf I called years. That is why we feel that a new approach with a the debate. Would he accept an invitation to meet renewed focus on competition is needed to make an people and see what happens on the ground? I think impact. To do this, the Government want to build on that he might be pleasantly surprised. the good work already being done by schools to encourage more pupils to play competitive sport in their own Tim Loughton: I am always grateful for invitations school and against other schools. and the Secretary of State for Education is always keen Although school sport partnerships have helped schools to devolve invitations to his ministerial team. I have had to increase participation rates in a range of areas targeted a number of similar offers from many colleagues, not by the previous Government, they have also locked surprisingly, among the many letters that I have received schools into a rigid network while forcing them to on this subject. I have visited schools and engaged in achieve a series of targets that this Government feel physical activities in those schools. The hon. Gentleman impedes schools’ability to promote sport. The Government is good at issuing invitations to Ministers to visit his are concerned that, despite this heavy focus on targets, constituency; he was good at issuing them to the previous the proportion of pupils playing competitive sport regularly Government and the previous Secretary of State for has remained disappointingly low. Only some two in Education was good at passing them on to the Minister every five pupils play competitive sport regularly in with responsibility for schools, who spent most of his their own school and only one in five plays regularly time heading towards East Anglia. If I can make a against other schools. My right hon. Friend the Secretary diversion to take in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, of State has concluded that the existing network of I will endeavour to do so at some stage in future. In school sport partnerships is neither good enough value principle, yes; in practice, we will see how the diary pans for money, nor likely to be the best way to help schools out or I will never get any work done in this place and I achieve their potential in improving provision for will not be able to answer his frequent debates in the competitive sport. House. The hon. Gentleman asked what discussions have The Secretaries of State for Education and for Culture, taken place with colleagues in other Departments, Olympics, Media and Sport, in consultation with experts particularly with the Secretaries of State for Health and in sport and alongside officials from both Departments, for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. My right hon. are considering how to take things forward in the best Friend the Secretary of State for Education has had a interests of schools and the pupils and parents they number of meetings with those two Cabinet colleagues, serve. One way of doing that will be launching a national particularly the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Olympic and Paralympic-style sports event that I have Media and Sport, as have I. I sit on the interdepartmental already mentioned, which will form the pinnacle of a steering group on the schools olympics, which is one pyramid of school sport competitions. Other layers will proposal being advanced by this Government. There include intra-school, inter-school, local authority or has been considerable engagement between officials in county level competitions. Every school, including all three Departments. I had responsibility for children’s mainstream and special schools, will be given the health in the shadow Health team, under the now opportunity to get involved. I am keen to ensure that Secretary of State for Health, where we had extensive pupils with disabilities are fully engaged in the process. I discussion on this matter. We need to tackle not only am particularly keen to meet representatives from what goes in but what comes out, in terms of the Paralympics and disability sports organisations. We intend obesity problem and the activity underachievement. We to use £10 million of lottery funding, distributed by need to take a two-pronged approach. Sport England, to establish this competition for young In lifting the many requirements placed on them by people. the previous Government’s PE and sport strategy, the While I am on the subject, let me dispel the myth that Government believe that schools will be able to use competitive sport is elitist. Competitive sport inspires their new freedoms to enable more pupils to play competitive people to be the best that they can be and should be a sport. I understand that this decision has not been vibrant part of school life for all pupils. Sport should be popular in some quarters. I recently met a group of for everyone. That is why we want schools to set up exceedingly impressive young ambassadors who voiced sports teams that cater for players of all abilities. Anyone, their concerns eloquently when delivering a petition last from the most serious football player to the pupil who week. However, I am convinced that this decision is the enjoys a kick-about for fun, should be given the opportunity 263WH School Sports (Colchester)14 DECEMBER 2010 School Sports (Colchester) 264WH

[Tim Loughton] school in September 2004 would be expected to do two hours of PE and sport a week by 2006, four hours by to learn the values of competitive sport and to enjoy 2010 and five hours by 2011. How can schools be and benefit from that experience. We want schools to expected to make decisions about the best needs of their have not just first teams, but second, third and fourth pupils while trying to deal with the straitjacket of such teams, as there were when I was at school. Indeed, in 10 central control? schools 100% of pupils were playing regular competitive Second, it created a new hierarchy of people to run sports against other schools and in 320 schools all the the programme for schools, including competition managers pupils are regularly taking part in intra-school competitions. and senior competition managers—a new hierarchy of That does not sound like elitism to me. people telling other people what to do. Every one We want to see a sharp reduction in the bureaucratic of those people was committed to improving local burden on schools, leaving them free to focus on doing school sport, but I fear that, at best, they enabled what is right for their students. The previous schools to leave sport to someone else and, at worst, Administration’s school sport programme was about they stifled schools’ ability to provide an offer that was telling schools what to do. First, it specified how many best for the needs of their schools and their pupils. That hours of sport were to be made available to pupils, by neither enables innovation— schools, each week, starting with 75% doing two hours by 2006, then 85% doing two hours by 2008, rising to all children doing four hours by 2010, reaching the ever-more 2pm prescriptive heights of five hours of sport for all five to Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order 16-year-olds by 2011. A pupil who joined a secondary No. 10(11)). 87WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 88WS

release of certain spectrum bands and how to overcome problems Written Ministerial associated with this; and the role of the EU in international spectrum negotiations. The presidency began with a progress report on this item and Statements was followed by Commissioner Kroes giving a short presentation of her views. The main points of which were: Tuesday 14 December 2010 She noted the importance of spectrum to both citizens and business—the main drivers being its contribution towards improving the EU’s global competitiveness and the social and quality life improvements it could bring through applications such as e-health; BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Thus, it was no longer sustainable to “do nothing” and that it was important that member states needed to agree the bold proposals within the RSPP; Telecoms Council She also noted that many member states have specific issues with the proposed deadlines for clearing and authorising specific spectrum bands; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, However, she indicated that she regarded the clearance of Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Vaizey): My noble the 800 MHz spectrum—that currently associated with analogue Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Business, television broadcasting—as a key step in making the Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox) has today made Commission’s broadband strategy targets a reality (in particular the target associated with 30+Mbps—Ref: EM 13874/10) the following statement: and she was keen not to see the stated deadline of 1 January “The Telecommunications Council took place in Brussels on 2013 slip; 3 December and was chaired by the Belgian presidency. She proposed that the Commission should have a greater I was unable to attend Council due to the travel disruption role in international and bilateral negotiations regarding caused by the unseasonable weather conditions and I was represented spectrum; and at Council by Andy Lebrecht (UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative Briefly covered the proposal to produce an inventory of to the EU—UKREP) for the formal agenda items and by Martin spectrum currently used in the EU. Jones (UKREP) for the lunch-time discussion on roaming. An official from BIS also attended. She concluded by stating the importance of reaching an early Lunch-time discussion on mobile roaming. agreement on the RSPP. In order to inform and shape the debate, Ministers were asked Member states’ interventions then followed. The main points to consider three questions on this issue and I enclose the full text of UK’s intervention were: within annex A to this statement. In summary, they covered issues Stressing the overall positive nature of the RSPP and its related to: stimulating competition; the impact of new technologies; proposals; and whether a cap on retail data prices was an appropriate course We recognised that many member states, including UK, had of action. issues regarding the deadline associated with the release of I understand that the discussion was positive in nature and spectrum and that UK preferred an extension to the deadline below is a summary of the main points made during the debate: associated with release of 800 MHz from January 2013 to The Commission and most member states see the introduction January 2015; of greater competition in the EU roaming market as the way UK also has concerns regarding the proposals covering to decrease what are regarded as relatively high prices for “block sizes” of spectrum; consumers; UK wished to review the Commission’s proposal on a spectrum However, price regulation was seen by both the Commission inventory before commenting further but proposed that any and most member states as the least preferred option; inventory should cover both public and private spectrum A recognition that the recently agreed telecommunications holdings; and framework package would not be re-opened in respect of That we regarded that matters relating to international spectrum mobile roaming; negotiations as mainly a member state competency and that Technology was seen as one way that might allow for a should remain the case. diversity of approaches to tackle this issue and would, Other member states’ interventions noted that the RSPP proposal therefore, bring down prices over time for consumers; and was critical in making a positive contribution to the wider Europe It was preferable to adopt a solution that was based on a 2020 strategy and generally shared UK’s concerns and supported multi-stakeholder approach. our position on both spectrum release deadlines (especially for The UK’s contribution to the debate was as detailed in my member states who share borders with non-EU states) and an pre-Council statement and confirmed the UK’s views that a increased role for the EU in international negotiations. However, solution may not necessarily involve regulation featuring retail a number of member states requested Commission assistance price controls and that the UK preferred a solution based on a with negotiations with non-EU neighbours. multi-stakeholder approach. I am pleased to report that these There was general support for UK’s call for local circumstances points were noted by Commissioner Kroes during her summing to be taken into account when considering spectrum release up of the debate. deadlines. Several member states indicated concerns regarding Following lunch, the formal business of Council took place. the necessary resource to undertake an inventory. Proposal for a Decision of the European Parliament and of the In her summing-up of the debate, Commissioner Kroes reiterated Council establishing the first Radio Spectrum—Policy Programme her preference for a January 2013 release date, but indicated the Radio Spectrum Policy Programme (RSPP): A Progress Report possibility of derogations for member states who share borders and Exchange of Views. (EM 13872/10). with non-EU states (a proposal that would not apply to nor This discussion item focused on four previously issued questions resolve the UK’s issues with the proposed deadline). and is attached within annex A. In summary, these questions Finally, during a final intervention, the presidency expressed covered: the contribution of efficient spectrum management towards concern that the Commission may not fully appreciate the extent Europe 2020 goals; if an inventory of EU spectrum would also of concerns of, and problems for member states associated with contribute towards these goals; a commonly agreed date for the proposed spectrum release deadlines. 89WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 90WS

Proposal for a Regulation amending Regulation (EC) No 460/2004 2. What impact will medium to long-term market developments, establishing the European Network and Information Security Agency e.g. the transition to next generation mobile networks (LTE) and (ENISA) as regards its duration—A Progress Report the use of all-IP technologies, have on the roaming market? Proposal for a Regulation concerning the European Network and 3. In the short term, should the roaming regulation be adapted Information Security Agency (ENISA)—A Progress Report to add a retail price cap for data, similar to what is foreseen for These two items were progress reports from the Commission voice and SMS?” on the progress regarding these proposals. (Ref: EM 14322/10) There was little discussion covering this item. However, the TREASURY Commission stated that the modernisation of ENISA was essential and that the fight against cybercrime was a top priority. The only Simple Financial Products (Consultation) substantive intervention was from Greece—though supported by Cyprus and Bulgaria—who indicated a view that ENISA should have a permanent mandate, as opposed to the five years proposed. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark In response, the Commission indicated that the EU needed the Hoban): Today the Government are publishing a flexibility of a time-limited mandate, given the rapidly changing consultation on developing a new category of simple nature of issues related to ENISA’s work. The UK did not financial products. The consultation sets out the intervene on this item. Government’s proposals in this area, and provides an Cross-fertilisation between the Europe 2020 flagship initiatives “A opportunity for interested parties to respond. Copies of Digital Agenda for Europe” and “Innovation Union”—Adoption of the document are available on the HM Treasury website. Council Conclusions; and The Government are committed to helping consumers European Broadband: investing in digitally driven growth—Adoption to take responsibility for their finances and are already of Council Conclusions taking forward the coalition commitment to develop These two Council conclusions were adopted without comment Britain’s first free national financial advice service. This from any member states. consultation proposes a new regime of simple products This item was followed by the “any other business” items, that will complement current work on advice and education, which were: giving consumers a simple alternative when they reach Report on the state of development of roaming services within the the market. European Union—Presentation by the Commission; These products will ensure that people understand Commissioner Kroes summarised the lunch-time discussion the products they need, help people make better choices and stated that a dialogue with all stakeholders was necessary (a and encourage competition in the market. The Government point made by the UK during lunch); expect that these proposals will be taken forward on a Internet Governance Forum (IGF)—Briefing by the Commission voluntary basis by the industry, in collaboration with and the Presidency; consumer representatives, and that once introduced, The Commission noted the positive outcome of the recent will have a positive impact on consumer engagement in renewal of the mandate of the IGF by the United Nations and the market. thanked Lithuania for hosting the most recent IGF; Copies of the consultation document have been placed The next Presidency’s programme and events—Briefing by the in the Libraries of both Houses. Hungarian delegation; It was noted that the incoming presidency were planning an informal Ministerial meeting on infrastructure protection and that the next TTE Council would take place on 27 May 2011. Tax Information Exchange (Liberia and Aruba) Other than noted above, there were no substantive points made on these three items and Council concluded following them. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David ANNEX A—Questions for Discussion at Telecoms Council (Dec Gauke): Tax information exchange agreements (TIEAs) 2010) were signed with Liberia in London on 1 November 2010 RSPP/Spectrum and with Aruba in The Hague on 5 November 2010. 1. Do the Ministers believe that spectrum should contribute to The texts of the TIEAs have been deposited in the achieve the goals of EU 2020? In particular, should spectrum Libraries of both Houses and made available on HM contribute to economic growth and to secure a competitive advantage Revenue and Custom’s website. The texts will be scheduled in innovative wireless technologies, not only in the telecom sector to draft Orders in Council and laid before the House of but also in other sectors such as transport, the environment, energy or research and development? Commons in due course. 2. In order to contribute fully to the goals of the digital agenda and of EU 2020, should the Commission be asked to produce, in DEFENCE collaboration with the member states, an inventory of the different uses made of the spectrum in Europe? Are their some types of Afghanistan Troop Levels: Spring 2011 Roulement spectrum that should be addressed more carefully in such inventory? 3. With regard to (harmonized) spectrum used for electronic communications services, do the member states wish to agree on The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): early common deadlines for making spectrum available for wireless The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is due broadband? How should possible obstacles be addressed? to take place in April 2011. The UK’s current framework 4. Should the Union play a broader role in order to better brigade in Helmand, 16 Air Assault Brigade, will be defend and promote the EU spectrum policies in international replaced by 3 Commando Brigade. The forces deploying negotiations? include: Mobile Roaming 3 Commando Brigade Headquarters, Royal Marines 1. What is the best way to stimulate competition in roaming Elements of 30 Commando Information Exploitation Group, Royal services and achieve a well-functioning single market for the Marines benefit of European consumers? 91WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 92WS

Elements of the Royal Navy forming Headquarters Joint Force Elements of 7 Air Assault Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Support (Afghanistan) including members of the Maritime Reserve Engineers Headquarters, 104 Logistic Brigade Elements of 101 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Elements of 7 Armoured Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron Engineers (207) Elements of 104 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical 42 Commando Royal Marines including members of the Maritime Engineers Reserve Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Military Police 45 Commando Royal Marines including members of the Maritime Elements of 111 Provost Company Royal Military Police Reserve Elements of 114 Provost Company Royal Military Police Commando Logistic Regiment, Royal Marines Elements of Special Investigations Branch United Kingdom Elements of the Royal Navy forming the in-theatre Medical Regiment Elements of 1 Military Working Dogs Regiment and Field Hospital Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Brigade Elements of 845 Naval Air Squadron including members of the Elements of the Military Stabilisation Support Group (MSSG) Maritime Reserve Elements of 6th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland (Volunteers) Elements of 846 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 4th Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 847 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 6th Battalion The Rifles (Volunteers) Elements of 857 Naval Air Squadron including members of the Maritime Reserve Elements of 88 Postal and Courier Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 854 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 151 Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of the Royal Naval Regulators Elements of 158 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Elements of 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery Corps Elements of The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Elements of 162 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment (Volunteers), Greys) The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 9th/12th Lancers (Prince of Wales’s) Elements of 166 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery Corps Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Squadron (Volunteers), Elements of 12th Regiment Royal Artillery The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 383 Commando Petroleum Troop (Volunteers), The Elements of 26th Regiment Royal Artillery Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 395 Air Despatch Troop (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 102 Battalion (Volunteers), Royal Electrical and Mechanical Elements of 47th Regiment Royal Artillery Engineers 24 Commando Engineer Regiment Elements of the Military Provost Staff and Military Provost Staff Elements of 12 (Air Support) Engineer Group (Volunteers) Elements of 22 Engineer Regiment Elements of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force Elements of 28 Engineer Regiment Number 6 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters Elements of 32 Engineer Regiment Elements of HQ Royal Air Force Police Wing Elements of 36 Engineer Regiment 58 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographic) 617 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 101 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) 31 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group Elements of 5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 3rd Division Headquarters and Signal Regiment Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 10th Signal Regiment Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 14th Signals Regiment (Electronic Warfare) Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 22nd Signal Regiment Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, The Highlanders Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force 3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force 1st Battalion The Rifles Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force Elements of 1 Regiment, Army Air Corps Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 3 Regiment, Army Air Corps Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 2 Logistic Support Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron Elements of 9 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of Tactical Medical Wing Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 1 (Expeditionary Logistics) Squadron Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron Elements of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing Elements of 23 Pioneer Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of Joint Ground Based Air Defence Elements of 24 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal Elements of Defence HUMINT Unit Logistic Corps Elements of the Joint Support Chain Services Elements of 27 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Volunteer and ex-regular members of the reserve Elements of 29 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps forces will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part of this integrated force package, and we expect to issue 2 Close Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers around 786 call-out notices to fill some 676 posts. On 93WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 94WS completion of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists Both of the two seats in Nimroz province were won by will undertake a period of training and, where applicable, women—the first time any Afghan woman has won a integration with their respective receiving units. The seat not reserved for a female candidate. majority will serve on operations for around six months. The Afghan Government reported progress on the As part of this commitment, we expect up to 19 members commitments made at the Kabul conference in July on of the sponsored reserves to be in theatre at any one security, anti-corruption, human rights and public financial time. management. The deployment of 3 Commando Brigade and An important example of the region’s commitment accompanying units will not result in any change to the to supporting Afghanistan was the fourth regional economic UK’s established and enduring conventional force level co-operation conference on Afghanistan (RECCA), held of 9,500 personnel. in Istanbul, Turkey on 2-3 November. The UK was I shall make a further statement on the units we central to establishing the RECCA process in 2005, and expect to serve under 3 Commando Brigade’s planned this year funded the establishment of a centre for regional replacement formation, 20th Armoured Brigade, nearer co-operation at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kabul. the time of their deployment. A long awaited Afghan-Pakistan transit trade agreement was finally signed by Afghanistan and Pakistan on FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 29 October, enabling cargo trucks to reach Pakistani ports and the border with India. This will provide a Afghanistan: Monthly Progress Report significant boost for Afghan trade. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk) and the HMG UK and Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House Afghanistan website (http://afghanistan.hmg.gov.uk/). that today, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is publishing the first HEALTH progress report on developments in Afghanistan, which I announced we would publish every month in my Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer statement to the House on 27 October. Affairs Council The report focuses on key developments during the month of November. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health At the NATO Lisbon summit, the International Security (Anne Milton): The Employment, Social Policy, Health Assistance Force (ISAF)’s 48 contributing nations and Consumer Affairs Council met on 6 and 7 December reaffirmed their enduring commitment to Afghanistan’s in Brussels. The health and consumer affairs part of the security and stability. NATO and Afghanistan also Council was taken on 7 December. I represented the UK. agreed the framework of a long-term partnership that At the meeting, following an exchange of views on looks beyond the end of ISAF’s current mission. The the draft regulation on provision of food information to summit set out the timetable for transition of lead consumers, political agreement between member states responsibility for security from international to Afghan was reached by qualified majority. The United Kingdom forces by the end of 2014. voted in favour of the proposal. The text will now be Transition to Afghan lead security responsibility will forwarded to the European Parliament for their be dependent on the conditions in each district and consideration. province. It will see ISAF’s role evolve away from combat A policy debate on a possible mechanism for the joint towards increased training, mentoring and support. In procurement of vaccines and antiviral medication concluded Lisbon, ISAF partners joined the UK in pledging additional that a voluntary framework should be developed. trainers to help Afghan security forces build capacity and prepare to assume lead responsibility for security, Council conclusions were adopted on: investing in as set out at the summit. Europe’s health work force of tomorrow—scope for innovation and collaboration; innovation and solidarity Pressure on the insurgency is increasing due to ISAF’s in pharmaceuticals and on innovative approaches for operations. The significant uplift in troop numbers has chronic diseases in public health and health care systems. corresponded to an increase in military operations, particularly in those areas where insurgent activity is The Commission provided an update on progress of still strong, although this has not caused a significant the proposals on information to the general public on increase in civilian casualties. medicinal products, and the presidency provided information on a number of conferences and international Progress continues to be made in developing the events organised during their presidency. Afghan national army and the Afghan national police, both of which are on track to meet the targets for trained soldiers and police officers, agreed at the London HOME DEPARTMENT conference in January this year, by November 2011. Investment continues in the training of both the army Forensic Science and the police, particularly their leadership. The results of September’s parliamentary elections were declared. While by no means free of irregularities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the or fraud, they were broadly credible, given the circumstances. Home Department (James Brokenshire): The Forensic Approximately 60% of Parliamentarians are new to the Science Service (FSS) was an Executive agency which National Assembly. Female candidates have done well. was granted trading fund status in 1999, a step designed 95WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 96WS to increase its financial flexibility. Then, following the We want to see the UK forensic science industry McFarland review in 2002, FSS Ltd was established as operating as a genuine market, with private sector providers a GovCo, wholly owned by the Government, in December competing to provide innovative services at the lowest 2005. The intention was that this be a transitional step cost. This will preserve police resources and maximise towards a “public-private partnership”. the positive impact forensic sciences can have on tackling In the event, however, no further progress was made. crime. A competitive market can help to drive down This lack of progress has led in our view to opportunities prices and improve turnaround times, meaning serious for reform being missed, and continuing reductions in crimes can be cleared up more quickly and efficiently. the value of publicly owned assets. Ultimately, that is what everyone in the criminal justice system wants to see. The previous Government did not reform the Forensic Science Service when they had the chance, and instead allowed it to maintain a cost base far higher than its PRIME MINISTER commercial rivals. This meant that FSS continued operating uncompetitive terms and conditions and expanded its Draft Cabinet Manual employment levels between 1999 and 2003. This was undertaken without bringing down the cost base towards a level where FSS would be able to compete. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O’Donnell, has published today the Commercial rivals, many established by former FSS draft Cabinet Manual on the Cabinet Office website: members of staff, have taken market share from the www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- former state-run monopoly. manual. FSS was set up as a GovCo, with an £18 million loan The draft Cabinet Manual is intended to be a source in December 2005. The company has met interest payments of information on the UK’s laws, conventions and rules on this loan but cannot afford to repay the principal that affect the operation and procedures of Government. amount borrowed. Twelve weeks have been allowed for comment (until The previous Government supported the company 8 March 2011). with a further £50 million grant from early 2009 to Copies of the draft Cabinet Manual have been placed restructure the business. in the Libraries of both Houses and also in the Vote Despite this intervention and the commitment of the Office. current management team, the current challenging forensics market has put the FSS back into serious financial difficulty. FSS is currently making operating losses of TRANSPORT around £2 million per month. Its cash is due to run out as early as January next year. It is vital that we take Crossrail clear and decisive action to sort this out. The police have advised us that their spend on external The Minister of State, Department for Transport forensic suppliers will continue to fall over the next few (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I wish to update the House on years, as forces seek to maximise efficiencies in this Crossrail progress since my annual update on 15 July area. HMIC concurs with this assessment. 2010, Official Report, columns 43-44WS, in which I We have therefore decided to support the wind down undertook to report later in the year on progress made of FSS, transferring or selling off as much of its operations by Crossrail Ltd on their value-for-money programme. as possible. We will work with FSS management and The spending review announcement confirmed staff, ACPO, and other suppliers to ensure an orderly Government’s joint commitment with the Mayor of transition, but our firm ambition is that there will be no London to delivering Crossrail, and secured the funding continuing state interest in a forensics provider by March to deliver the scheme to its original scope. 2012. As I indicated in July, Crossrail Ltd has been undertaking There is no justification for the uncertainty and costs a programme of value engineering, risk avoidance and of trying to restructure and retain the business. mitigation, alongside indirect cost reduction to ensure We will ensure the orderly wind down of FSS does that the scheme is delivered in the most efficient way not impact on police service customers or the wider possible. In line with this approach, the Government criminal justice system. With ACPO, we will put in accepted an engineering-led solution to delivering the place a central team to ensure work is transferred in a central section which has enabled substantial savings of controlled way and that arrangements are put in place around £1 billion to the Crossrail funding package to be to ensure security of supply in future. The continued identified. While the construction programme for the provision of effective forensics is our priority. central section will be lengthened by around a year, this has enabled the Government to confirm that funding is We know that there are real challenges ahead for FSS available for the whole project. staff whose skills and contribution will be important as We now expect that Crossrail services will commence we move through the transition. We will be working from 2018. However, the detailed timetable for the hard with the company to ensure that staff are kept phased introduction of Crossrail services requires additional fully informed of developments. work in a number of areas. For example, further work We will also be working with ACPO to seek to needs to take place on: maximise the level of competition in the market including (i) the transfer of services from existing franchises to the through opportunities created by FSS leaving the field. future Crossrail operations; and This will help to ensure that police forces benefit from (ii) the development of detailed plans on the commissioning cost-effective use of forensics. of services. 97WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 98WS

It should be noted that Crossrail services were always intends to consult with the incoming Hungarian and planned to be phased into operation over some months Polish presidencies and table a roadmap for further and it remains a priority for the Government to ensure discussions. services are commissioned in the most efficient possible The other main agenda item was on pensions. The way. Council adopted conclusions and in the ensuing debate, In addition, I wish to inform the House that Crossrail the presidency asked the member states what measures Ltd has issued its notice of intention to award the they were taking to ensure the provision of adequate tunnelling contracts for the central section tunnels. pensions, and asked for their initial reactions to the These contracts mark a further milestone in Crossrail’s Green Paper on pensions. I outlined the UK’s reforms progress towards the start of tunnelling in late 2011. to improve state pensions, to encourage earlier saving Crossrail Ltd continues to work to achieve further for retirement and to extend working lives. In reaction savings in advance of the final review point for the to the Green Paper, I acknowledged the value added project in spring next year. I expect to make a further through sharing of best practice at a European level but update on progress then. stressed that there could be no “one size fits all” solution. In particular, I argued there was no evidence for why Solvency II capital requirements should be applied to pensions, which, far from being in consumers’ interests, WORK AND PENSIONS could seriously weaken defined benefit schemes. The Commission presented its EU 2020 flagship “New Skills and Jobs”. Council took note of presidency Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer conclusions on the Commission’s flagship initiatives Affairs Council “Youth On the Move” and “New Skills and Jobs”; of Employment Committee opinions on employment and environment and the examination of countries’employment The Minister of State, Department for Work and policies; and of a joint Employment Committee and Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, Social Policy Committee opinion on a monitoring Health and Consumer Affairs Council was held on framework for employment policies. It also adopted 6 December 2010 in Brussels. I represented the United Council conclusions on employment policies and the Kingdom. green economy, adapting to an ageing workforce, the The main item on the agenda was a policy debate on social elements of the Europe 2020 strategy, social the pregnant workers directive. Ahead of Council, the services of general interest and gender. UK with the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Germany, Ministers adopted a progress report on the Directive Netherlands, Slovakia and Sweden circulated a joint on Equal Treatment—the anti-discrimination directive minute statement. This underlined the importance of and a declaration on the European year for combating subsidiarity and member state competence in setting poverty and social exclusion 2010. They also agreed a social security systems; criticised the EP’s First Reading general approach on the decision to create a European position; questioned the value of further negotiations; year for active ageing 2012. and called for a “pause for reflection” involving a On the “A”points, the UK submitted a minute statement Council impact assessment and consultation with social on the Council decision on the EU-Switzerland agreement partners. In my intervention, I argued that the negotiations extending social security rights to non-active persons may be at the “end of the road” and while Council moving between the EU and Switzerland. This explained should at the very least have a pause for reflection, I see our decision not to opt in to the decision, our intention little point in further negotiations given the gulf between to seek a reciprocal exemption for non-active persons, the co-legislators. We will continue to argue for these and our disagreement with the interpretation given by proposals to be abandoned. Despite the opposition of the Council Legal Services to how the duty of sincere many member states to the proposal, the presidency co-operation applied in these circumstances. 631W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 632W

Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Written Answers to that in 2009 it commissioned Ipsos MORI to conduct research on the collection of personal identifiers and Questions the introduction of individual electoral registration. The research, which included people with a low level of literacy in the sample, found that participants experienced Tuesday 14 December 2010 few difficulties in completing the forms. The findings of this research are available on the Commission’s website. The Commission further informs me that its plans for reviewing the move to individual electoral registration HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION are being developed and will include an assessment of the challenges faced by different groups when registering Catering to vote. It is intended that those who have a low level of literacy will form part of this work. Dr Huppert: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of General Election 2010 Commons Commission, what proportion of the (a) tea and (b) coffee provided through House of Commons catering outlets was from fair trade sources Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the hon. Member for in the latest period for which figures are available; and South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s what steps the Commission is taking to increase the Committee on the Electoral Commission, what the proportion provided which is from such sources. reason is for the time taken for the Electoral [30189] Commission to publish details relating to each candidate who contested the general election on 6 May John Thurso: The information requested is as follows: 2010. [30597] (a) All tea provided through the House of Commons catering outlets comes from sources classified as ’ethical’. Of the four Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me brands sold, one is certified as ’Fairtrade’ while the other three that although it has no statutory duty to publish details are certified under the Ethical Tea Partnership, contained in candidate returns, in the interest of (b) All fresh coffee provided through the House of Commons transparency the Commission published details of all catering outlets is certified as Fairtrade. A small quantity of the returns received from returning officers on 10 December instant coffee not certified as ’fair trade’ is sold in areas where 2010. either space restrictions or volumes are insufficient to warrant The Commission has published spending reports for equipment for fresh-brew coffee. This accounts for less 0.1% of all 4,028 out of the 4,150 candidates who stood at the UK coffee purchases. Given that over 99.9% of coffee purchases are from accredited fair trade sources, the Catering and Retail Service general election. is not actively seeking to increase the proportion. Candidates’ agents are responsible for submitting their spending reports to the returning officer, and Catering: Private Sector returning officers are responsible for making those reports available locally. Returning officers are also required to Mr Knight: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, forward a copy of the reports to the Electoral Commission Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of as soon as reasonably practicable after receipt. Commons Commission, what assessment the House of While the Commission received the majority of returns Commons Commission has made of allowing private from returning officers within a reasonable time after operators to provide catering services in the precincts receipt, a considerable number required follow-up before of the House. [30898] a sufficiently comprehensive set of returns could be published. Publication of similar information after the John Thurso: The Commission has agreed, on the UK general election in 2005 took place in March 2006. advice of the Finance and Services Committee, that the option of competitive tendering should be explored as part of the savings programme. That decision covers catering as well as other services. It will involve determining INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY whether services should be outsourced or retained in STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE house. The work of examining that option will begin early in 2011. Personnel

Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Electoral Register: Literacy pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2010, what the appropriate steps were which the Interim Chief John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for South West Executive took to investigate allegations of improper Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the behaviour by staff at the Independent Parliamentary Electoral Commission, what assessment the Electoral Standards Authority made in the House on Commission has made of the effects of standards of 2 December; and what the position is of each member literacy on implementation of individual voter of staff investigated for evidence to support the registration. [30511] allegations. [30883] 633W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 634W

Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Lynne Featherstone: Since its creation on 12 October within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary 2007, the Government Equalities Office has sponsored Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. the following events: Letter from Andrew McDonald: As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Event Calendar year £ Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary The Power List 2009 2,350 Question asking what steps I took to investigate allegations of Civil Service Live 2009 10,350 improper behaviour by staff at the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority made in the House on 2 December; and Everywoman Awards 2009 9,200 what the position is of each member of staff investigated for Civil Service Equality 2009 4,025 evidence to support the allegations. and Diversity Awards Following the claims made in the House on 2 December, I met The Power List 2010 3,220 the individual named to discuss the matter. I have not seen any Asian Achievers Awards 2010 1,000 evidence to support the allegations made. Hence, I fully endorse the statement made by IPSA’s Chairman on 2 December refuting Departmental Travel the allegations. Paul Maynard: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office NORTHERN IRELAND spent on grey fleet in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [28858] Departmental Conferences Lynne Featherstone: In 2008-09 and 2009-10, the Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Equalities Office has spent the following Northern Ireland what his Department’s annual amounts on grey fleet: budget for conferences was at (a) 7 May 2010 and (b) [30026] 7 December 2010. Financial Year Mileage Expenditure (£)

Mr Swire: The Department did not have an annual 2008-09 1,231 432.25 budget for conferences at either 7 May 2010 or 7 December 2009-10 1,284 447.60 2010. Equality: Regulation

WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Miss Begg: To ask the Minister for Women and Departmental Official Visits Equalities what assessment she has made of the likely effect on the implementation of the Equality Act 2010 Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and of the Government’s one-in one-out policy on Equalities how many events in the UK the Government regulations. [28400] Equalities Office has (a) organised and (b) sent officials to attend in each year since its inception; what Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 2 December 2010]: the cost to the public purse was in each case; and how Most of the Equality Act 2010 came into force on many Government Equalities Office staff participated 1 October 2010. The remaining provisions of the Act in each such event. [22064] that have not yet been commenced, like all prospective regulatory measures across Government, are being Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office considered in the light of one-in-one-out policy and (GEO) does not hold information showing the number their impact on business and others affected. of conferences held or attended, nor do records cover the cost of holding or attending conferences. GEO has EU Law one conference code which covers the cost of hosting and attending events, which shows the following: Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and Financial year Conference expenditure (£) Equalities how many EU directives are pending transposition into domestic legislation by the 2007-081 220,167 Government Equalities Office; and what estimate she 2008-09 305,275 has made of the cost of each such transposition. 2009-10 414,423 [27494] 2010-11 87,166 1 GEO was established in October 2007. Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Most of this expenditure was for events held in has no EU Directives pending transposition. preparations for new legislation, which culminated in the 2010 Equality Act. Another large element was for Grants events which sought to improve the diversity of representation in public life. Anas Sarwar: To ask the Minister for Women and Departmental Sponsorship Equalities what grants have been awarded by the Government Equalities Office in 2010-11 to date; what Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and grants she plans to award in each of the next two years; Equalities what expenditure the Government what the monetary value is of each such grant fund; Equalities Office incurred on sponsorship in each year and to which organisations such grants have been since 1997 for which figures are available. [27531] made. [27863] 635W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 636W

Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 1 December 2010]: Afghanistan I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given on 19 November 2010, Official Report, columns 989-90W. 15. Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent progress has been made towards a political settlement FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [30276] Korean Peninsula Mr Hague: The inauguration of the High Peace 12. Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Council in October marked an important milestone for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the Afghan Peace and Reintegration programme. The representations he has made to the North Korean High Peace Council is taking forward political settlement Government in respect of its recent military action issues, including support for community reintegration against South Korea. [30272] cases and engagement with international actors. We support President Karzai’s efforts to reconcile with all Mr Jeremy Browne: Tensions are likely to remain those willing to meet the conditions he has laid down: high until North Korea abandons its provocative behaviour, renounce al-Qaeda, give up armed struggle; and respect and violation of UN resolutions, and creates the conditions the Afghan constitutional framework. The UK is working for the resumption of talks by making verifiable progress in support of President Karzai’s approach. All our towards denuclearisation. Talks between relevant parties activity is in support of an Afghan-led process. offer the best prospect for achieving a resolution of the dispute, but cannot succeed without trust. 19. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most Our ambassador in Pyongyang, and senior officials recent assessment is of the political and security in London, have made representations to the North situation in Afghanistan; and if he will make a Korean Government condemning the military action statement. [30280] and urging North Korea to refrain from such attacks in the future. Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Iran Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most recent assessment is of the political and security situation in Afghanistan; and if he will make a 13. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [30258] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of EU Mr Hague: Earlier today I laid a written report on sanctions on Iran; and if he will make a statement. recent progress in Afghanistan, as part of the Government’s [30274] commitment to keep the House regularly updated on the situation in Afghanistan. The report covers the Mr Hague: I have no doubt that the strong and security and political situation including the results of unprecedented international sanctions on Iran, including the recent elections, outcomes of the North Atlantic the EU measures, have been instrumental in bringing Treaty Organization (NATO) conference in Lisbon, Iran back to the negotiating table. It is vital that we now governance and regional engagement. maintain this pressure in order to persuade the Iranian Government to address the very real concerns about its Russian Federation: Fossil Fuels nuclear programme. 16. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of 14. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his recent progress he has made on discussions with the policy is on the human rights situation in Iran; and if Government of the Russian Federation on fossil fuel he will make a statement. [30275] subsidy reform; and if he will make a statement. [30277] Mr Hague: The human rights situation in Iran is deplorable. We welcome increased support for the UN Mr Bellingham: The UK has been instrumental in resolution on the issue of which we are co-sponsor. We pushing for fossil fuel subsidy reform through the G20, call on Iran to adhere to its international obligations which includes Russia. The G20 reaffirmed its commitment and we will work with partners to encourage the regime to phase out fossil fuel subsidies at the G20 summits in to end abuses. Toronto in June 2010 and in Seoul in November 2010. Middle East 20. Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 17. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions he has had with his counterparts on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent sanctions on Iran; and if he will make a statement. assessment he has made of the state of relations [30281] between the UK and the countries of the middle east. [30278] Mr Hague: My officials and I are in close touch with our EU colleagues as we implement together the EU Alistair Burt: Strong relationships with Middle East sanctions on Iran and try to persuade the Iranian countries are a priority for the Government. In particular Government, through a combination of pressure and we will continue to work with the United States and engagement, to address the very real concerns about its the Quartet as well as with our Arab partners to nuclear programme. secure progress towards a two state solution to the 637W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 638W

Arab-Israeli conflict. We are also working to elevate our Departmental Security links with the Gulf, and will engage strongly with the new Iraqi Government when formed. We are co-operating strongly with international partners to support the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Government of Yemen in its efforts to tackle al-Qaeda Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) whether each in the Arabian Peninsula and to ensure urgent reform foreign national who has worked in his Department in and development in Yemen. the last five years obtained security clearance; [28574] (2) what level of security clearance has been given to Gaza Aid Flotilla outside caterers working in his Department in the last three years. [28575] 18. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his Israeli counterpart on Alistair Burt: All foreign nationals employed directly the progress of Israel’s investigations into the deaths by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in the aboard the Gaza aid flotilla. [30279] UK and in missions abroad in the last five years have been security cleared to the level required for their job. Alistair Burt: The establishment of an independent The levels of clearances were in accordance with the Israeli Commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla Government’s National Security Vetting (NSV). Foreign tragedy was an important step forward. My officials are nationals employed by others who have worked on in regular contact with the Israeli authorities on this FCO premises in the UK have either been security issue. As we have made clear it is important that the cleared or escorted by security cleared staff. Commission is able to proceed swiftly, transparently Staff employed by outside catering companies working and rigorously, with access to the full evidence available. in the offices of the Foreign arid Commonwealth Office We have also been in touch with the Commission regarding (FCO) within the last three years have been either British witnesses giving testimony. security cleared to “Security Clearance” (SC), the second Yemen highest level under the NSV, or escorted by staff cleared to SC. 21. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next Diplomatic Service: Email plans to visit Yemen. [30282] Alistair Burt: My travel plans are not for public John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign disclosure for security reasons. I can, however, confirm and Commonwealth Affairs how many people have that as part of the preparations for the next Friends of access to electronic information sent to his Yemen meeting in Riyadh there will be an intense round Department’s London offices by British embassies and of engagement in the Gulf. High Commissions. [29518] Prior to this meeting, the Government’s engagement with Yemen and its Gulf neighbours will be taken Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office forward through a series of ministerial and senior visits (FCO) takes the protection of its information, including to the region. electronic information, very seriously, and complies with The right hon. Member will be aware of the significant the Cabinet Office Security Policy Framework, which security threat to British nationals in Yemen, borne out covers all areas of security, including technical, physical, by attacks on embassy staff in April and October this procedural and personnel security. Approximately 5,000 year. Official visits are necessarily severely limited. My staff in the UK have accounts on the FCO’s corporate colleagues and I rely on the expert advice of security IT system with access to electronic information sent professionals on the possibility of future visits. directly to their accounts from our posts overseas, as well as restricted access to certain other system areas Departmental Air Travel containing shared information of direct relevance to their part of FCO business. Most UK users also have John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign access to the FCO’s corporate records repository. and Commonwealth Affairs how many of his Documents, including diplomatic reporting from posts, Department’s staff based abroad used (a) economy are registered in this system in line with FCO information class tickets and (b) low-cost airlines to travel to and management policy; there are differing levels of access from the UK in the latest period for which figures are to the system governed by the corporate records security available. [29485] model. Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office FCO information is shared with other Government does not hold information centrally on individual travel Departments when appropriate and necessary. All by its staff as responsibility for duty travel overseas is Government Departments are required to conform with devolved to Posts. Obtaining this information from Cabinet Office standards to protect data at the relevant every Post would be at disproportionate cost. classification. We work closely with recipient Departments The standard policy for duty air travel is that on to ensure that appropriate measures are in place to journeys under five hours all staff should travel economy. protect any information we share with them. Value for money and budgetary restraints mean all Posts look to travel by the most cost effective means John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign available. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he Low cost airlines are used for travel to and from the has made of the security of electronic information sent UK. by diplomats. [29519] 639W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 640W

Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Pakistan: Capital Punishment (FCO) takes the protection of its information, including electronic information, very seriously, and complies with Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Cabinet Office Security Policy Framework, which and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his covers all areas of security, including technical, physical, Department has made to the government of Pakistan procedural and personnel security. In line with Cabinet on the death sentence passed on Asia Bibi by a court in Office requirements, the FCO completed its annual Punjab for the offence of insulting the Prophet Security Policy Framework compliance assessment, drawing Mohammed. [30533] on the outcome of the FCO’s Information Assurance Maturity assessment of May 2010, the results of which Alistair Burt: The UK opposes the death penalty in were included in the FCO’s Statement of Internal Control. all circumstances as a matter of principle. In Pakistan, In light of recent events, and in response to the request alongside EU colleagues, we regularly raise our support from the National Security Adviser that all Departments for its abolition and work with civil society to encourage review existing processes and systems, the FCO is carrying reform. out a further review of all security measures to ensure Our high commission in Islamabad has raised the these continue to be both robust and proportionate, case of Mrs Asia Bibi with the Punjab Government and working with recipient Departments of FCO’s data to we will continue to do so at a senior level. Specific confirm with them that appropriate measures are in representations to the Government of Pakistan are place for any onward handling and distribution of FCO being made by the head of the EU delegation, with UK data. support, in Islamabad. I raised the case of Asia Bibi with the Pakistan Minister for Minorities, Shahbaz International Cooperation: Climate Change Bhatti, on 9 December 2010.

Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Sri Lanka Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s role is in international efforts to address Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign climate change; and if he will make a statement. and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has [30268] had with the Secretary of State for Defence on his recent meeting with the Sri Lankan President. [30455] Mr Bellingham: We see an effective response to climate change as underpinning our security and prosperity. Alistair Burt: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary While the Department of Energy and Climate Change has regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues on a leads on the negotiations on a global agreement, effective wide range of foreign policy issues. deployment of foreign policy assets is crucial to mobilising the political will needed if we are to shape an effective Sri Lanka: Human Rights response. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Judaism: Festivals and Special Occasions for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the human rights situation Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a statement. [30198] and Commonwealth Affairs if he will seek to publish in the Official Report the text of his Chanukah message to Alistair Burt: The human rights situation in Sri Lanka the Jewish community; and if he will make a statement. remains a concern following the end of the military conflict. Key concerns include the persistent culture of [29842] impunity for human rights violations and the limits on Alistair Burt: Messages of greeting to different religious freedom of expression, in particular intimidation of the faiths by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary are media and the political opposition. We continue to raise published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office our concerns both bilaterally with the Government of website and on the websites of relevant embassies. Sri Lanka and at the UN Human Rights Council. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I discussed Lockerbie: Bombings with the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister on 19 and 20 October 2010 the importance of improving the human rights Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for situation in Sri Lanka. Our high commission in Colombo Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what advice his co-ordinates closely with international partners in calling Department received from the British Embassy in upon the Government to take action to protect human Libya in relation to political, commercial and rights and investigate abuses whenever they occur. operational consequences of a decision not to release Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi; if he will provide a copy of that advice to the Cabinet Secretary for TRANSPORT inclusion in his review of papers relating to the release of Al Megrahi; and if he will make a statement. Departmental Air Travel [30257] Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Transport how many senior civil servants in his (FCO) receives regular reporting from our embassy in Department have taken internal UK flights in an Tripoli on a wide range of issues. The FCO has provided official capacity since 6 May 2010; and how many such all relevant documentation to the Cabinet Office for the flights have been taken by senior civil servants in that Cabinet Secretary’s review. period. [29120] 641W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 642W

Norman Baker [holding answer 6 December 2010]: Departmental Press: Subscriptions Since 6 May 2010 28 senior civil servants in the Department for Transport and its agencies have taken a total of Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for 84 internal UK flights. Transport how much his Department spent on press cuttings services in each year since its creation. [28150] Information relating to the central Department contained in the figures above comprises flights booked through Norman Baker: The cost of press cuttings services to the main air travel contract. Information about flights the Department in each of the last eight years since its booked in any other way is not held centrally and could creation in 2002 is provided in the following table for be provided only at disproportionate cost. the central Department and its seven Executive agencies.

£000 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

DFT(C) 170.0 164.3 155.7 243.1 252.8 267.3 191.3 187.7 DSA n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5.5 21.4 5.0 DVLA 1.2 2.5 1.4 1.5 1.9 2.2 3.3 3.7 GCDA00000000 HA n/a n/a n/a 31.3 58.9 73.4 49.8 62.3 MCA 2.5 0 16.8 16.8 16.8 16.8 16.8 0 VCA00000000 VOSA00000000

The 2009-10 cost of press cuttings services for the Departmental Railways central Department includes £59,500 for regional (local) press cuttings outsourced by the Central Office of Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Information (COI). In previous years this service was Transport how many senior civil servants in his provided in-house by the COI as part of their Government Department have travelled by first class rail in an News Network regional service and itemised cost are official capacity since 6 May 2010. [29121] not available. The years 2002-03 to 2008-09 do not therefore include the cost of regional press cuttings. Norman Baker [holding answer 6 December 2010]: In the Department’s seven agencies 31 senior civil servants The Driving Standards Agency and Highways Agency have travelled by first class rail since 6 May 2010. are unable to provide figures specifically for press cuttings services in earlier years. The central Department does not record rail travel expenditure by senior civil servants separately. The Departmental Public Expenditure information could be provided only at disproportionate cost. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much and what proportion of his Driving Tests: Qualifications Department’s capital expenditure was allocated to (a) London and (b) the north-west in each of the last five Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for financial years. [28830] Transport what discussions he has had with industry representative groups on the introduction of the Driver Norman Baker: Details of the Department for Transport’s Certificate of Professional Competence; and what regional expenditure is published by HM Treasury in its estimate he has made of the likely cost to the public Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses which is available purse of the introduction of that certificate. [30475] on-line at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ Mike Penning: The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) pespub_country_regional_analysis.htm implemented the Driver Certificate of Professional Those tables show the following amounts and proportion Competence (Driver CPC) following three public of the Department’s capital expenditure that were allocated consultations and with input from stakeholders, including to London and the north-west in each of the last five representatives from: financial years. GoSkills(GS) Skills for Logistics (SfL) 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT) London (£ 637 841 811 778 719 Road Haulage Association (RHA) million) Freight Transport Association (FTA) Percentage 18.4 17.5 17.4 15.0 13.5 Joint Approvals Unit for Periodic Training (JAUPT) North- 360 544 573 622 658 west (£ Transport and General Workers’ Union (TGWU) million) Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) Percentage 10.4 11.3 12.3 12.0 12.4 Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) These figures exclude Capital grant to local authorities, Transport Commissioners. as this information is collated separately by the Department DSA subsequently established a Driver CPC Advisory for Communities and Local Government, Department Group to consider issues arising from the introduction for Children, Schools and Families, Department for of Driver CPC, which had its first meeting in November Work and Pensions and devolved administrations. 2010. The group’s membership is similar to that listed 643W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 644W above but it does not include the Traffic Commissioners, Mrs Villiers: The stations at which platforms will be DVLA, or JAUPT. The Chartered Institute of Logistics extended are detailed within Network Rail’s updated and Transport is also a member of the group. delivery plan. The plans do not include extending platforms DSA operates as a trading fund. The services the at Clapham high street and Wandsworth road stations. agency provides are funded by driving and riding test Services that stop at those stations today, and those fees and other non-statutory activities. The costs incurred which are planned to stop there in future do not exceed by the agency for the implementation of Driver CPC the length of the current platforms. are being recovered from the driver CPC initial qualification test fees, periodic training approval fees, and driver Railway Stations: Repairs and Maintenance training hours upload fees. Electric Vehicles: Local Government Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 25 November 2010, Official Report, columns Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 52-54WS, on rail investment, what rail infrastructure Transport what steps his Department is taking to improvements will be made to (a) Reading station, (b) increase the number of electric vehicles used by local Birmingham station, (c) London King’s Cross station, authorities in (a) England, (b) the West Midlands and (d) Gatwick Airport station and (e) the East Coast (c) Coventry. [24859] main line. [28428] Norman Baker: The Government are committed to Mrs Villiers: The Government have secured funding supporting the uptake of electric vehicles in the UK. for a number of vital improvements across the network The Secretary of State has recently announced provision that will provide more capacity for growing passenger of over £400 million to support measures promoting and freight services. their use and which will be used for consumer incentives, open to all consumers including local authorities, At Reading, £850 million will fund additional platforms, infrastructure and research and development. new flyovers and a new depot. The works will allow more passenger and freight trains to operate, reduce Coventry is part of a Midlands bid for funding under delays and will deliver customer benefits on the wider the second wave of the Government’s Plugged-In Places Great Western route. scheme. The winning bids will be announced shortly. The Birmingham Gateway Project will renovate and Under the Government funded Low Carbon Vehicle improve Birmingham New Street station, which handles Public Procurement Programme, over 285 vehicles (85 cars 75% more trains and over twice the number of passengers and 200 vans) will be bought for use in public fleets of it was designed for in the 1960s. these 41 vans and four cars are for use in the Coventry area. At London King’s Cross, work on a new concourse containing a ticket hall and passenger waiting area is The Clean Vehicles Directive (2009/33/EC) requires proceeding to complement the new main line platform public authorities and utilities to take into account the and improved access to the Underground. environmental impacts, when procuring road vehicles. Guidance on this Directive will be issued to all local At Gatwick, improvements are being jointly funded authorities. by Network Rail and Gatwick airport to provide a new platform and better passenger circulation areas. The Network Rail enhancements will remove a bottleneck on the Brighton Main Line. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for On the East Coast Main Line, Network Rail are Transport how much Network Rail has paid to delivering a package of capacity and reliability companies in the private sector since 2002. [29406] enhancements across the route including an upgrade of the ‘Joint Line’ via Lincoln, new platforms at Finsbury Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 December 2010]: This Park, new flyovers at Hitchin and Shaftholme in Yorkshire is a commercial matter for Network Rail as the owner and improvements at Peterborough. and operator of the national rail network. The hon. Member should contact Network Rail’s acting chief Railways: Fares executive at the following address for a response to her question: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Peter Henderson for Transport how he plans to allocate the revenue Acting Chief Executive which will accrue to his Department from train fares in Network Rail each of the next three years; and if he will make a Kings Place statement. [28091] 90 York Way London Mrs Villiers [holding answer 6 December 2010]: On N1 9AG. 25 November 2010, Official Report, columns 466-68, the Secretary of State for Transport announced plans Railway Stations: Greater London for provision of additional rolling stock and electrification, building on the announcements made earlier in the Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for comprehensive spending review. The revenue from fares Transport whether he plans to include Clapham high will help the Government deliver much needed street and Wandsworth road station in his planned improvements on the rail network, including provision platform lengthening programme. [27993] of extra carriages. 645W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 646W

Railways: Greater London Mrs Villiers: The freehold of the former Waterloo International terminal is currently vested in BRB Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for (Residuary) Ltd. As recently announced by the Cabinet Transport what assessment he has made of the likely Office on 14 October 2010, it is proposed that BRB economic effect of train ticket price increases on (a) (Residuary) Ltd will be abolished. Discussions have London, (b) non-metropolitan areas and (c) started as to how BRB (Residuary) Ltd’s current assets, metropolitan areas. [27664] including Waterloo International terminal, will be managed in the future. Mrs Villiers: Despite the economic downturn, passenger The Government are committed to ensuring that the numbers are, in general, still increasing and we expect former Eurostar platforms at Waterloo International this trend to continue. The fares increase announced terminal are brought back into use for domestic passenger recently will help the Government deliver much needed services. improvements on the rail network including improving conditions and relieving overcrowding on busy routes. JUSTICE Road Signs and Markings: Tourism Cemeteries Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Transport what recent discussions he has had on (1) if he will assess the level of compliance of renewing the guidelines for the siting of brown tourist Birmingham city council with his Department’s information signage on routes managed by the guidance on managing the safety of burial ground Highways Agency. [25528] memorials since January 2010; [30409] Mike Penning: The chief executive of the Highways (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Agency discussed the current tourist signing policy for graveyards in which memorials have been fitted with trunk roads with the Minister for Tourism and Heritage, temporary wooden stakes in accordance with his my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare Department’s guidance on managing the safety of (John Penrose) on 12 October 2010. The Minister indicated burial ground memorials in 2010 to date. [30512] that he is considering these matters in the context of his Mr Djanogly: Responsibility for the management of development of a new national tourism strategy. I am local authority cemeteries, including the procedures for also looking into the issue of brown tourist information the safety of staff and visitors, lies with the relevant signage. council. Burial authorities have been encouraged to Rolling Stock: Procurement take account of the Department’s guidance, but we have no plans to carry out individual compliance assessments. Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for We have not sought to estimate the extent to which Transport what recent progress has been made on wooden or other support stakes for memorials are still rolling stock procurement; and if he will make a being used. Responses to the Ministry of Justice survey statement. [28342] of burial ground operators in 2009 indicated that memorials considered to present a risk of causing serious injury Mrs Villiers: On 25 November 2010, Official Report, were now more likely to be identified by suitable signs columns 466-68, the Secretary of State for Transport rather than to be fitted with stakes. It would be consistent confirmed the procurement process for new Thameslink with the Department’s memorial safety guidance for the trains would go ahead. The identification of a preferred use of such stakes to be reduced. bidder and contract award is anticipated for next year. Legal Costs In addition the Secretary of State announced that most of Britain’s ageing Intercity 125 ‘high speed trains’ Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for are to be retired. Two alternative options remain under Justice what assessment he has made of the effects of consideration: a revised and lower cost Intercity Express the proposals in the Civil Litigation Funding Green Programme bid from Agility Trains (Hitachi and John Paper on the prospects of success of personal injury Laing), which envisages a mixture of electric trains and claimants whose costs will be restricted. [30093] ‘hybrid’ trains with both electric and diesel engines; and Mr Djanogly: A set of impact assessments were published a new proposal for a fleet of new all-electric trains alongside our “Proposals for Reform of Civil Litigation which could be coupled to new diesel locomotives where Funding and Costs in England and Wales—Implementation the overhead electric power lines end. of Lord Justice Jackson’s Recommendations”, which We are also negotiating with train operators to provide include a preliminary assessment of the impact of individual further additional capacity through the procurement of proposals. The preliminary impact assessments can be additional carriages in London and other cities. Further found at: details will be announced once these negotiations are http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/consultations.htm concluded. It is expected that the new trains associated and respondents are invited to comment on the with these interventions will be procured by train operators. preliminary impacts identified. Waterloo Station Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will take steps to provide funding for Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for meritorious and difficult cases in the event that Transport whether his Department plans to continue to conditional fee agreement success fees and after the hold a freehold interest in the Waterloo International event insurance premiums are rendered non- terminal following any sale. [29190] recoverable. [30095] 647W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 648W

Mr Djanogly: The consultation paper, “Proposals for Mr Djanogly: We have made no such estimate at this Reform of Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England stage. Preliminary impact assessments were published and Wales—Implementation of Lord Justice Jackson’s alongside our “Proposals for Reform of Civil Litigation Recommendations”, published on 15 November 2010, Funding and Costs in England and Wales’— sets out proposals for abolishing recoverability of success Implementation of Lord Justice Jackson’s fees and after the event insurance premiums. It also Recommendations”, available at: includes possible refinements to help the claimants deal http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/jackson-review- with the consequences of non-recoverability. The aim 151110.htm of the proposals is provide access to justice at proportionate We will take into account the views of those responding costs for claimants and defendants. We will take final to the consultation on costs and benefits when reaching decisions on the way forward in the light of the consultation final decisions. responses. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether his Department placed restrictions on Justice (1) if he will estimate the likely annual reduction whom organisations invited to consultation meetings in income of membership organisations attributable to on the Legal Aid and the Civil Litigation Funding the implementation of proposals in the Civil Litigation Green Papers might send to such meetings; whether Funding Green Paper; [30096] any invited organisations have not been allowed to send (2) if he will estimate the likely annual reduction in delegates they have nominated; and if he will make a income to trades unions attributable to the statement. [30165] implementation of proposals in the Civil Litigation Funding Green Paper. [30097] Mr Djanogly: I held two separate meetings with representative bodies following publication of the legal Mr Djanogly: The consultation paper, “Proposals for aid and the civil litigation funding and costs consultation Reform of Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England papers. 25 bodies were invited to the former, on the legal and Wales—Implementation of Lord Justice Jackson’s aid proposals, and 17 to the latter on civil litigation Recommendations”, published on 15 November 2010, funding and costs. Due to limitations on the available includes a proposal to abolish the recoverability of the space, and to facilitate a structured discussion, each self-insurance element by membership organisations (as organisation was invited to send only one representative. prescribed under section 30 of the Access to Justice The choice of representative was left to each individual 1999), if the recoverability of after the event insurance organisation. The consultation continues until 14 February premiums is abolished as proposed. We intend to consider 2011 and Ministry of Justice officials will consider any the potential impacts further over the consultation period future meeting requests from individual organisations and will take into account the views of those responding during this period. In line with the Code of Practice on to our consultations on costs and benefits when reaching Consultation, a summary of the comments received for final decisions. each consultation will be published alongside the Government’s official response, which is expected in Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for spring 2011. Justice (1) if he will estimate the cost to (a) local authorities and (b) the NHS of care for those involved Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for in accidents who will not pursue claims to pay for Justice if he will assess the consequences for small treatment as a result of implementation of proposals in businesses of increases to the cost of litigation for the Legal Aid and the Civil Litigation Funding Green commercial disputes. [30218] Papers; [30098] (2) if he will assess the effect on clinical standards of Mr Djanogly: The Government are proposing to the reduction in the number of claims of clinical reduce the cost of litigation rather than just not increase negligence anticipated by the Legal Aid and the Civil it. This should have positive consequences for small Justice Funding Green Papers. [30099] businesses.

Mr Djanogly: I believe that our proposals will enable Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for necessary claims to be brought and will allow access to Justice what evidence of (a) a compensation culture justice at proportionate costs for claimants and defendants. and (b) perceptions of a compensation culture he Precise impacts are of course complicated to assess and evaluated in drawing up his proposals for reform of (i) subject to uncertainty. We intend to consider the potential legal aid and (ii) civil litigation funding. [30242] impacts further over the consultation period and will take into account the views of those responding to our Mr Djanogly: Neither the Government’s proposals consultations on costs and benefits when reaching final for reform of legal aid nor those for civil litigation decisions. funding and costs were informed by specific evidence of compensation culture or perceptions of a compensation Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for culture. However, the Government takes the view that Justice what estimate he has made of the average likely legal aid has been available for a very wide range of shortfall in costs to be met by a fast track claimant as issues which has led to the availability of taxpayer the consequence of the proposals in the Civil Litigation funding for unnecessary litigation. Our proposals for Funding Green Paper as augmented by the proposed reform will ensure that the taxpayer pays for legal 10 per cent. uplift in damages for pain, suffering and advice and litigation only in relation to serious issues loss of amenity in (a) cash terms and (b) as a which have sufficient priority to justify the use of public proportion of the damages recovered. [30100] funds. 649W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 650W

Our proposals for reform of civil litigation funding Prisons: Mobile Phones and costs are based on Lord Justice Jackson’s year-long review of “Civil Litigation Costs”. Lord Young of John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Graffham in his report into the compensation culture Justice how many unauthorised (a) mobile telephones and health and safety, “Common Sense, Common Safety”, and (b) SIM cards have been found in prisons in published in October 2010, argues that incentives for England and Wales in each of the last 12 months; and claiming compensation must change and strongly endorses if he will make a statement. [30355] the Jackson proposals. Mr Blunt: NOMS is determined to address the risks Magistrates Courts: Sentencing that mobile phones present to security and to the safety of the public. We have implemented a strategy to minimise the number of mobile phones entering prisons, to find Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for phones that do get in and to disrupt mobile phones that Justice pursuant to the answer of 17 November 2010, cannot be found. Official Report, column 861W, on magistrates courts: sentencing, if he will place in the Library information The requested information is set out in the tables but, on the category of crime into which each case fell. as the recording methodology changed in April 2010, [30483] the figures are not directly comparable. Analysis of mobile phones and SIM cards is carried Mr Blunt: Pursuant to the answer of 17 November out at a central unit. Prior to April 2010, the number of 2010, Official Report, column 861W, two tables (for the phones and SIM cards that were analysed, or years 2008 and 2009) of the number of defendants “interrogated”, was recorded rather than the total number proceeded against, found guilty, sentenced, sentence of “finds”. The following table shows the number of breakdown, for offence groups, by local justice area, for interrogations that took place from December 2009 to England and Wales, have been placed in the House March 2010. These figures do not reflect any phones or Library. SIM cards not sent to our central unit for analysis, or which were sent but not analysed. A phone containing a Prisoners’ Transfers: Northern Ireland SIM card (which would constitute one “find”) would usually have been counted as two separate interrogations.

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Month, year Total number of “interrogations” Justice how many offenders were transferred from prisons in England and Wales to prisons in Northern December 2009 675 Ireland in each of the last six years. [30175] January 2010 853 February 2010 938 Mr Blunt: The intra-jurisdictional transfer of prisoners March 2010 869 between the United Kingdom is governed by the Crime Since April 2010, prisons in England and Wales have (Sentences) Act 1997. been instructed to send mobile phones and SIM cards The number of prisoners transferred from England for analysis, or to advise if a phone or SIM card has and Wales to Northern Ireland from 2004 to 2009 is as been found but has not been sent for analysis. The follows: following table outlines the total number of “finds” in all prisons for each month from April 2010 to November Number 2010. One “find”could constitute a mobile phone without a SIM card inside, a SIM card only, or a mobile phone 2004 5 with a SIM card inside. 2005 17 2006 10 Total number of “finds” 2007 14 2008 5 2010 2009 16 April 463 May 528 Prisoners: Foreign Nationals June 859 July 658 August 576 Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice September 659 how many foreign nationals were serving prison sentences of (a) four years or less and (b) more than October 568 four years on the most recent date for which figures are November 633 available. [30079] The figures contained in the tables have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although care is taken Mr Blunt: As at 30 September 2010 there were 3,365 when processing data, the detail collected is subject to foreign national prisoners serving sentences of less than the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording four years and 4,320 serving sentences of four years or system. These data are not subject to audit. more (including indeterminate sentences). Prisons: Mother and Baby Units These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice systems, are subject to possible errors with data entry how many mothers and babies were held in prison in and processing. each of the last five years. [30080] 651W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 652W

Mr Blunt: Between 1 May 2010 and 31 October 2010 Self-locking Snares the average population of mother and babies in prisons in England was 54 and 51 respectively. The population Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for of mother and baby units includes expectant mothers. Justice how many convictions there were for offences Information prior to this date could be provided only related to the use of self-locking snares in Sussex in at a disproportionate cost. each year since 2005. [30405]

Probation: Working Hours Mr Blunt: The use of self-locking snares is an offence under section 11 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act Claire Perry: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 1981 but cannot be separately identified from other how many working days were lost (a) on average per offences under section 11 by court proceedings data staff member and (b) in total in each probation area in held by the Ministry of Justice. the latest period for which figures are available. [30416]

Mr Blunt: The figures requested are set out in the following table for the period April 2009 to March INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT 2010. Afghanistan: Agriculture Probation staff sickness absence: 2009-10 (a) Average days lost due to sickness absence (b) Total days lost due Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of Probation board/trust per person (FTE) to sickness absence State for International Development what assessment he has made of the potential contribution of Avon and Somerset 6.6 3,518.0 agricultural development in conflict resolution in Bedfordshire 10.6 1,941.5 Afghanistan. [30123] Cambridgeshire 8.4 2,152.3 Cheshire 9.4 3,313.6 Mr Andrew Mitchell: There are a wide range of Cumbria 8.0 1,445.3 factors which impact on the insurgency and conflict Derbyshire 8.7 3,075.0 resolution in Afghanistan. Of these, reduced legal economic Devon and Cornwall 10.9 4,943.4 opportunities could be a factor driving some young Dorset 9.1 2,352.7 males into joining the insurgency and armed opposition Durham 9.1 2,445.8 groups, as well as dissatisfactions associated with poor Dyfed Powys 7.8 1,351.0 governance and corruption. Essex 8.2 3,605.0 Gloucestershire 8.6 1,489.5 The agricultural sector plays a large part in the economy Greater Manchester 10.0 12,001.6 of Afghanistan. Furthermore, the ‘Strategic Conflict Gwent 13.0 3,174.7 Assessment of Afghanistan’, published by the Recovery Hampshire 8.7 5,080.0 and Development Consortium in November 2008, Hertfordshire 9.1 2,263.0 suggests that men in rural communities are most at Humberside 7.5 3,212.4 risk of recruitment into armed opposition groups. Kent 11.1 5,000.7 Providing increased and legitimate employment Lancashire 9.4 5,482.1 opportunities in the sector may, in addition to improving Leicestershire 7.9 4,029.0 rural livelihoods, reduce the likelihood of disaffected, Lincolnshire 7.9 1,801.6 unemployed male youths joining the armed opposition. London 12.0 32,660.5 Conflict-sensitive community programmes which operate Merseyside 10.2 7,285.7 at the sub-district level may also help reduce tensions as Norfolk 9.8 2,746.5 well as resolve disputes over land ownership and natural North Wales 11.5 2,911.5 resources. North Yorkshire 6.5 1,326.0 Northamptonshire 9.7 2,650.2 Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of Northumbria 12.1 7,608.5 State for International Development how much Nottinghamshire 8.3 4,732.7 funding the Government has provided for (a) South Wales 11.3 6,277.7 agricultural development and (b) emergency food aid South Yorkshire 9.5 5,582.3 in Afghanistan in each of the last five years. [30125] Staffordshire 11.5 5,082.1 Suffolk 7.9 1,776.7 Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Surrey 10.1 2,577.9 Development (DFID) spent a total of £31.8 million on Sussex 9.5 3,851.1 the agriculture sector in Afghanistan between 2005-06 Teesside 10.8 3,360.6 and 2009-10. Of this, £30.5 million was spent on agricultural Thames Valley 10.0 6,568.6 development and emergency food aid. The breakdown Warwickshire 10.1 1,578.0 of this funding over each of the past five financial years West Mercia 8.5 3,138.1 is as follows. West Midlands 10.0 14,000.6 £ million West Yorkshire 7.2 7,004.1 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total Wiltshire 9.1 1,600.0 National total 9.8 197,997.3 Emergency 0 0 0 14 1.2 15.2 Data Sources and Quality: Food Aid These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with Agricultural 2.1 1.2 0 6.5 5.5 15.3 any large-scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Development and processing. 653W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 654W

Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of Mr Andrew Mitchell: The food security situation in State for International Development what plans his Afghanistan is not considered critical. Based on information Department has to assist agricultural development in from the Afghan Ministry of Agriculture Irrigation and Afghanistan. [30190] Livestock (MAIL), supported by the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), national wheat prices Mr Andrew Mitchell: Agriculture is the backbone of have risen but remain affordable, and the availability of the Afghan economy, contributing more than one-third wheat is better than average due to last year’s bumper of Gross Domestic Product (GDP). The Department harvest and better than average production this year. for International Development (DFID) will continue to There is an overall grain shortage of around 750,000 support a range of agricultural development programmes metric tonnes, however there is good access to imports in Afghanistan over the coming years, to improve access from Kazakhstan. The Government of Afghanistan to markets, add value to farmers’ produce and provide and the international community, including the FAO support for agricultural livelihoods. For example, the and the UN’s World Food Programme (WFP), are new Helmand Growth Programme will provide support closely following the situation and have the capacity to to farmers by providing skills training and access to provide support to food insecure areas and groups if credit and markets, while the Comprehensive Agriculture required. and Rural Development Facility provides incentives to sustain the reduction in poppy cultivation, by promoting Burundi: Agriculture licit agricultural livelihoods and strengthening agricultural markets. A decision on future programmes supporting agricultural development in Afghanistan will be made Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for following the current Bilateral Aid Review, which will International Development (1) how much his conclude early next year. Department spent on agricultural development in Burundi in each of the last five years; [29932] Afghanistan: Farmers (2) what plans his Department has to provide agricultural development assistance to Burundi. [29983] Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much Mr O’Brien: Support from the Department for funding the Government has provided for climate International Development (DFID) in the agricultural change adaptation by smallholder farmers in sector in Burundi in the last five years has been focused Afghanistan; and what proportion this represented of on food security interventions, with a total of £1.88 million total Government funding in respect of (a) climate contributed through the World Food Programme (WFP) change and (b) climate change adaptation (i) overseas and a UNDP-managed emergency support fund. and (ii) in the developing world in each of the last five years. [30124] Details of funding in each financial year are as follows.

Mr Andrew Mitchell: Our central recording systems Financial Year £ million do not capture this level of detail for project expenditure. 2005-06 1.23 Compiling the requested information would incur disproportionate cost. 2006-07 0.65 The Department for International Development (DFID) DFID has no plans to provide direct support to the recognises that smallholder farmers are particularly agricultural sector in Burundi in the future. However, vulnerable to the impacts of climate change and we take DFID supports the Africa Enterprise Challenge Fund this into account in the design and implementation of a (AECF), which has so far provided a total of £540,000 number of our development activities, including through to two businesses in Burundi for agricultural initiatives. our research programme and our adaptation programmes. Businesses are selected through a competitive process In 2009 the Stockholm Environment Institute produced according to the criteria applied by the relevant funding a study on the socio-economic impacts of climate change window. in Afghanistan. This has informed our approach to ensuring that UK aid programmes are screened for Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for their impact on climate change. International Development (1) how much the The UK Government have committed to provide Government has spent on climate change adaptation £1.5 billion in Fast Start finance over the period 2010-12, for smallholder farmers in Burundi in each of the last to help the developing world carry out the urgent work five years; and what proportion of total Government needed to adapt to climate change, adopt clean technology expenditure on (a) climate change programmes and reduce emissions from deforestation. In 2010-11 overseas, (b) climate change adaptation overseas, (c) the UK is providing approximately 41% of its Fast Start climate change programmes in developing countries allocation for adaptation, a significant share of which and (d) climate change adaptation in developing has been designed to benefit smallholder farmers. The countries this represents; [29979] Department is in the course of monitoring and evaluating the impact of these ongoing programmes. (2) what steps his Department is taking to assist the poorest and most marginal farmers in Burundi to Afghanistan: Food adapt to climate change (a) currently, (b) in the next five to 10 years and (c) over the next 50 years. [29980] Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment Mr O’Brien: The UK has not supported smallholder he has made of the level of threat to food security in farmers in Burundi to adapt to climate change in the Afghanistan. [30121] last five years. 655W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 656W

Although the Department for International Development commercial crops and introduce more effective agricultural (DFID) does not plan to provide direct support to the production systems, including agroforestry and terracing. agricultural sector in Burundi, we support two initiatives Without adaptation, Burundi would be at risk of chronic which could benefit farmers in the country. DFID has famines. funded a study by the Stockholm Environment Institute (SEI) into the economic effects of climate change in Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for Burundi. DFID has also provided $15 million to the International Development how much his Department Africa Enterprise Challenge Fund (AECF), for a new has spent on emergency food aid to Burundi in each of funding window on renewable energy and adaptation to the last five years. [29933] climate technologies. This will provide matching funding to those businesses from the East African Community, Mr O’Brien: The Department for International including Burundi, that are successful in a competitive Development (DFID) has provided £3.17 million of application process, and aims to support initiatives that emergency food aid to Burundi in the last five years, will have a direct impact on the rural poor. through the World Food Programme (WFP) and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Burundi: Comprehensive Africa Agriculture Details of funding in each financial year are as follows. Development Programme Financial year £ million Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what plans his Department 2005-06 1.77 has to provide assistance to Burundi for the purposes 2006-07 0.7 of meeting its Comprehensive Africa Agriculture 2007-08 0.7 Development Programme commitments. [29982]

Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Departmental Conferences Development (DFID) strongly supports implementation of the Comprehensive Africa Agriculture Development Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme (CAADP) of the New Partnership for Africa’s International Development what his Department’s Development (NEPAD) and the African Union, to annual budget for conferences was at (a) 7 May 2010 establish long term investment plans and increase the and (b) 7 December 2010. [30028] proportion of national budgets for agriculture. DFID is supporting the CAADP process through a £10 million Mr O’Brien: Detailed information on the Department grant to a Multi-Donor Trust fund with the World for International Development’s (DFID) budget planned Bank, which facilitates implementation of CAADP. We for conferences is not centrally held and therefore not do not provide separate bilateral funding to Burundi to available without incurring disproportionate cost. support CAADP implementation. However, in accordance with the cross-government Burundi: Food freeze on marketing and advertising spending, all conferences paid for by DFID are being reviewed and Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for agreed on a case-by-case basis. International Development (1) what recent assessment he has made of food security in Burundi; [29930] (2) what assessment his Department has made of the Developing Countries: Civil Society likely effects of climate change on (a) agriculture and (b) food security in Burundi. [29931] Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department Mr O’Brien: The 2010 global hunger index ranks is taking to encourage the strengthening of civil society Burundi as one of four countries in the world with an and local media in developing countries in order to ’extremely alarming’ level of hunger. More than 50% of help citizens hold their governments to account. people in Burundi are undernourished. The Food and [30209] Agriculture Organisation (FAO) estimates that Burundi has a chronic deficit of 300,000 tonnes of cereals. The Mr O’Brien: The Department for International World Food Programme (WFP) estimates that Burundi’s Development (DFID) supports the strengthening of average per capita production is 1,400 kilocalories per civil society and local media in developing countries clay, compared to a recommended daily intake of 2,100. through many centrally managed funds and in-country Even during harvest season, households spend up to programmes. For example, DFID launched in October 60% of their income on food. the new Global Poverty Action Fund which supports The Department for International Development (DFID) civil society organisations focused on service delivery in funded a recent study by the Stockholm Environment support of poverty reduction and the most off-track Institute into the economic effects of climate change in Millennium Development Goals in poor countries. Burundi. This projects risks of higher temperatures and Support for this work is also provided through the reduced rainfall, as well as a greater incidence of events Civil Society Challenge Fund and the Governance and producing high intensity rainfall in a short period. Transparency Fund with more than 167 projects in Prolonged dryness can create groundwater scarcity and more than 90 developing countries building the capacity reduced pastureland, which in turn would lead to the of more than 800 local civil society and media organisations loss of harvests and of livestock production. In order to to enable them to better support citizens to hold their adapt successfully, Burundi would need to diversify its own governments to account. 657W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 658W

Developing Countries: Micro-level Insurance Services enforcement of anti-money laundering regimes by national institutions. Recipients of assistance since mid 2009 Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for include Ghana, Indonesia, Nigeria, Vietnam and the International Development what steps his Department West Bank and Gaza. is taking to support the provision of affordable DFID has committed £1.3 million to the IMF for micro-level insurance services in developing countries. this work from January 2010 to April 2014. This is [30208] provided through a multi-donor trust fund (other donors include Switzerland, France, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Canada Mr O’Brien: The Department for International and Japan). DFID sits on the Steering Committee for Development (DFID) supports the FinMark Trust for the Trust Fund. Southern Africa, which has developed a far reaching programme on micro-insurance. Further to its research Great Lakes: Agriculture on the opportunities and constraints for delivering insurance to low-income households in South Africa, the trust has Eric Joyce: To ask the Secretary of State for supported diagnostic studies, regulatory reforms and International Development what assessment his business innovations in several countries, including Ethiopia Department has made of the potential role for and Zambia. This is partly through sponsorship of the agricultural development in providing (a) an incentive global Access to Insurance Initiative. In Kenya, the to desist from conflict and (b) a subsequent peace DFID supported Financial Sector Deepening Trust dividend for the Great Lakes region. [29981] (FSDT) has supported micro-insurance in two ways: by Mr O’Brien: The Department for International advising on the design of Safaricom and Equity Bank’s Development (DFID) has not done such an assessment M-Kesho product; and to develop and demonstrate the for the countries in Great Lakes region specifically, but market viability of index-based insurance products to our experience in post-conflict environments is that reduce the impact of weather risk on smallholder farmers economic interventions in agriculture can be an important and pastrolists. tool for stabilisation. For example, in Rwanda, agricultural In India, DFID’s Poorest States Inclusive Growth development will continue to be the primary driver for Programme (currently under design) is expected to facilitate poverty reduction which, in turn, should help to reduce the development of a range of affordable financial conflict. In addition, DFID’s Land Tenure programme products, including insurance. By the end of 2015, our is helping to reduce conflicts by settling land disputes in aim is for an additional 3 million women in the four Rwanda. poorest states to have access to insurance services. We DFID is also supporting the implementation of the are also supporting the institutional strengthening of Comprehensive Africa Agriculture Development the microfinance sector in countries such as Pakistan Programme (CAADP) of the New Partnership for Africa’s and Bangladesh, thereby indirectly assisting the development Development (NEPAD) and the African Union, through of a range of financial products including micro-insurance. a £10 million contribution to the CAADP Multi Donor Going forward, DFID is considering how to further Trust fund at the World Bank. The CAADP is assisting enhance the provision of affordable micro-insurance in countries in the Great Lakes region to establish long a range of countries, in line with its 2011-15 business term investment plans for agriculture, including increasing plan commitment. Further details will be released in the proportion of national budgets for agriculture. due course. India: Agriculture Developing Countries: Money Laundering Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for for International Development what recent assessment International Development what steps his Department his Department has made of the effects of climate is taking in co-operation with the International change on (a) agriculture and (b) food security in Monetary Fund to tackle money laundering in India. [30007] developing countries. [30207] Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Mr O’Brien: Corruption seriously undermines Development (DFID) has supported a number of publicly development efforts, and impacts most upon the poor. available assessments of the impact of climate change Anti-money laundering is an important tool for increasing on agriculture and food security. These are available at: the chances of getting caught, and sanctioned, when www.worlp.com using the proceeds of corruption. Support for strengthening and anti-money laundering systems in developing countries www.mprlp.in is a core dimension of the Department for International Economic and population growth is increasing the Development’s (DFID’s) anti-corruption strategy. demand for water, food and energy in many countries, The International Monetary Fund (IMF) aims to India included. Our assessment is that climate change is improve global compliance with anti-money laundering compounding this and will impact on agriculture and standards. It is addressing this through targeted assistance food security in India in a number of ways. Temperature to countries on the basis of need and willingness to increases, unpredictable monsoons and disease could engage, with a focus on low and middle income countries. reduce agricultural productivity, which could contribute Assistance is offered through a module-based approach to further increases in the price of food, food insecurity tailored to each country’s context, and includes: needs and child malnutrition. The poorest people are likely to assessments; risk-based approach to anti-money laundering; feel the hardest impacts, with women and children strengthening the legal and regulatory framework; and being most affected. 659W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 660W

Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Andrew Mitchell: Our central recording systems for International Development (1) what steps his do not capture this level of detail for project expenditure. Department is taking to seek to ensure that the (a) Compiling the requested information would incur poorest and (b) most marginal farmers in India can disproportionate cost. adapt to climate change in (i) 2010-11, (ii) the next five The Department for International Development (DFID) to 10 years and (iii) the next 50 years; [30008] recognises that smallholder farmers are particularly (2) what plans his Department has to assist India in vulnerable to the impacts of climate change and we take its agricultural development. [30138] this into account in the design and implementation of a number of our development activities, including through Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International our research programme and our adaptation programmes. Development (DFID) is supporting the poorest and The UK Government have committed to provide most marginal farmers in the Indian states of Orissa £1.5 billion in Fast Start finance over the period 2010-12, and Madhya Pradesh to increase their income, diversify to help the developing world carry out the urgent work their livelihoods, improve their food security and better needed to adapt to climate change, adopt clean technology adapt to climate change (through forestry, water resources and reduce emissions from deforestation. In 2010-11 development, rain-fed farming and decentralising rural the UK is providing approximately 41% of its Fast Start administration). In 2010-11, we are supporting 20,680 allocation for adaptation, a significant share of which of the poorest households and 16,503 of the most has been designed to benefit smallholder farmers. The marginal farmer households in these states to adapt to Department is in the course of monitoring and evaluating climate change. the impact of these ongoing programmes. In terms of future plans, the Secretary of State for India: Food International Development has launched a bilateral aid review of all DFID country programmes, including Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State India, to ensure that we are giving aid where it is most for International Development what recent assessment needed, to help the world’s poorest people. We are in he has made of the food security situation in India. close dialogue with the Government of India about the [30009] future of the India programme. Details will be announced upon conclusion of the review process. Mr Andrew Mitchell: According to the Food and Agricultural Organisation (FAO), there are 237.7 million Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State undernourished people in India (FAO, 2010). India’s for International Development how much the 2007 National Family Health Survey (3) estimates that Government has spent on (a) agricultural 43% of Indian children are underweight. development and (b) emergency food aid for India in The British Government have contributed to the each of the last five years. [30010] following publicly available assessments of the food security situation in India: the National and state level Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Rural Food Security Atlases produced by the World Development (DFID) spent the following on agricultural Food Programme and the MS Swaminathan Foundation: development in India in each of the last five years. http://www.wfp.org.in/ and the International Food Policy Research Institute Financial year £ million Hunger and State Level Hunger Indexes: 2009-10 6.7 http://www.ifpri.org/publication/2010-global-hunger-index 2008-09 11.2 http://www.ifpri.org/publication/comparisons-hunger-across- 2007-08 14.4 states-india-state-hunger-index 2006-07 17.1 The Department for International Development (DFID) 2005-06 14.2 has also recently supported an analysis of the two latest rounds of India’s National Family Health Survey. State The UK Government have not provided emergency comparisons show that child nutrition improved most food aid to India in any of the last five years as the when women had their first child later or had better Indian Government has not requested us to. household access to food grains. Namibia: Food India: Climate Change Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment he Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State has made of the food security situation in Namibia. for International Development how much his [29937] Department has spent on climate change adaptation for smallholder farmers in India in each of the last five Mr O’Brien: The Department for International years; and what proportion this represents of (a) total Development (DFID) provides financial support to the spending on climate change overseas, (b) total Southern Africa Development Community to strengthen spending on climate change adaptation overseas, (c) monitoring of, and responses towards, improved food total spending on climate change in the developing security. Through this programme, DFID has supported world and (d) total spending on climate change the Namibia Vulnerability Assessment Committee (VAC) adaptation in the developing world in each such year. to produce the National Vulnerability Assessment and [30139] Analysis (VAA) Comprehensive Assessment in August 661W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 662W

2010-11, which includes an assessment of the current Damian Green: We work closely with the Ministry of state of vulnerability and a prognosis for 2011. Main Justice, the Legal Services Commission (LSC) and the findings were that immediate food security responses Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner (OISC) were required for northern populations and that a to ensure that applicants are able to access appropriate substantial portion of the population throughout the levels of advice. country had limited access to basic services. The The LSC has introduced the Immigration and Asylum Government of Namibia has taken action to address Accreditation Scheme (IAAS), which requires all advisers these findings. doing publicly funded work to be accredited to an appropriate standard and this became compulsory in Swaziland: Maternity Services August 2005. On 15 November the Early Legal Advice Project Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for (ELAP) was launched. This project is a new approach International Development what recent discussions he that will be tested in the midlands and east region to has had with the government of Swaziland on the improve decisions through early legal advice. ELAP will provision of clean and sanitary conditions in maternity ensure that all applicants, including asylum seeking units in that country to help prevent the spread of HIV families, in the midlands and east region have the to newborn babies. [30166] opportunity to access legal advice regarding their asylum claim early on in the process. The legal representatives Mr O’Brien: The Department for International that are taking part in ELAP have all been approved by Development (DFID) does not have a bilateral aid the Legal Services Commission (LSC) and are required programme in Swaziland. to be level 2 qualified. The UK Government supports the call for the elimination of paediatric AIDS and is working with others to scale Asylum: Deportation up prevention of mother to child transmission services. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many asylum seekers identified for deportation were removed from their HOME DEPARTMENT accommodation prior to deportation at an hour before Animal Experiments: Primates 8 am since January 2010. [30351] Damian Green: For the period January to November Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010, the UK Border Agency arrested a total of 585 failed the Home Department what estimate she has made of asylum seekers on enforcement visits from their residential the number of wild-caught primates to be used in accommodation between midnight and 7.59 am. Most scientific research in the UK in (a) 2015 and (b) 2020. of these arrests took place between 6 am and 7 am [30404] following an individual case-by-case risk assessment which takes into account the likelihood of failed asylum Lynne Featherstone: Since 1995 Home Office policy seekers being at the premises at the time of arrest or the has prohibited the use of wild-caught non-human primates need to travel to the airport in time for the flight. except where exceptional and specific justification can be established. Application of these stringent criteria The figures provided are sourced from management has meant that the Home Office has not authorised the information tools; they are not quality assured under first time use of any wild-caught primates in regulated National Statistics protocols and are subject to change. procedures in the United Kingdom for more than 10 years. The figures provided do not constitute part of National I cannot foresee any future circumstances in which such Statistics and therefore should be treated as provisional. exceptional and specific justification would be established. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Asylum Home Department what steps her Department takes to inform the schools of children of asylum seekers who Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the have been deported with these children of the action Home Department what her policy is on no-notice that has been taken. [30484] removals for families unsuccessful in seeking asylum. [30140] Damian Green: The procedures the UK Border Agency has in place for the removal and deportation of all Damian Green: Since the ruling in the High Court on categories of immigration offenders, including failed 16 July, the UK Border Agency’s policy is not to carry asylum seekers and their families, are set out in the out reduced notice removals. The agency’s policy is to Enforcement Instructions and Guidance (EIG) manual give at least 72 hours notice of removal. However, available to view on the UK Border Agency website at: previous to the injunction issued on 21 May 2010, in www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ exceptional circumstances where the removal could not enforcement be managed in any other way, a policy of giving a In chapter 45 of this guidance staff are instructed to reduced period of notice was used. notify local child welfare agencies, which include schools, of a family’s detention and removal from the UK. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the The UK Border Agency is currently piloting a new Home Department what steps her Department plans to approach to managing family cases. A key element of take to ensure that asylum-seeking families have access this is better communication and partnership working to good quality legal advice in the early stages of the with other agencies to manage families within the asylum-seeking process. [30141] immigration system who are in their care. 663W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 664W

Asylum: Finance Lynne Featherstone: The following table shows the income and the expenditure of the Criminal Records Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bureau (CRB) in each year since 2005. Home Department if she will take steps to link the level of support payments to asylum seekers to changes to £ million the level of benefit payments. [30149] Income Expenditure 2004-05 65.2 73.2 Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: 2005-06 75.9 78.1 The UK Border Agency reviews the level of support 2006-07 93.2 79.5 provided to destitute asylum seekers annually. In doing 2007-08 97.8 88.1 so, a number of factors are considered which may 2008-09 113.2 107 include changes to the level of benefit payments. There 2009-10 127.2 122.8 are currently no plans to make a direct link between the level of support provided to asylum seekers and the level of benefit payments. Criminal Records: Reading West

Asylum: Northern Ireland Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of those resident in Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Reading West constituency were subject to more than Home Department how many people presented one Criminal Records Bureau check in the most recent themselves for asylum to the immigration authorities in 12 months for which figures are available. [29995] Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; and what the outcome of each application was. [30174] Lynne Featherstone: The information is not available in the absence of the particular constituency post codes. Damian Green: The information is not held centrally However, nationally, the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) and can be obtained only through examination of individual issued 4.3 million certificates during the period 1 December records at disproportionate cost. 2009 to 30November 2010. Of these, approximately 504,000 were repeat applications. The CRB can provide Asylum: Work Permits the information requested if you write to the chief executive with the constituency postcodes that apply. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the There is a common myth that a CRB certificate Home Department whether she has assessed the merits cannot be used for more than one position: this is not of allowing asylum seekers to apply for a work permit true. Currently, there is scope for checks to be ported after six months; and if she will make a statement. but, because some of the checks won’t include convictions [30377] that could have occurred after the date of issue, some employers choose not to accept a previously issued Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: check. The Government believe it is important to maintain a distinction between economic migration and asylum The Government have pledged to review the criminal and that is why an asylum applicant’s claim needs to records regime. Among other aims, the review will have been outstanding for at least one year before they consider the fundamental principles behind vetting and can apply for permission to work. This is in line with barring and will determine how CRB checks may be our obligations under the EU reception conditions directive. less bureaucratic. The review will be completed early next year. We have considered the merits of reducing this threshold, but we believe such a reduction would encourage those Deportation who are not genuinely in need of protection to apply for asylum for economic reasons. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Criminal Records Home Department how many removal directions for illegal migrants have been cancelled by the UK Border Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Agency in the latest period for which figures are Home Department what assessment she has made of available; what the reasons were in each case; how the effect on the proportion of disclosures processed many of these removal directions involved non- within existing target times of the planned budget refundable flights; and how much it cost the agency to reduction for the Criminal Records Bureau; and if she cancel such flights. [30243] will make a statement. [30137] Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: Lynne Featherstone: The Criminal Records Bureau 3,5841 removal directions were cancelled by the UK and the Home Office Board will work closely together Border Agency for non-asylum cases for the period over the next four years to ensure that any planned staff 1 April-4 December 2010. This figure is based on instances reductions identified as part of the spending review will of failed removals not numbers of individuals, ie one not have a detrimental effect on the agency’s performance. person could fail to be removed on a number of occasions. The reasons in each case, the number of cases involving Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the non-refundable flights and the cost to the agency to Home Department what the (a) expenditure and (b) cancel such flights could be obtained by a detailed income of the Criminal Records Bureau was in each examination of individual records only at disproportionate year since 2005. [30220] cost. 665W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 666W

There are many reasons for the failure of removal There are many reasons for the failure of removal directions. Among the most common are: further or directions. Among the most common are: further or additional representations received on a case (the most additional representations received on a case (the most common of these are judicial review applications and common of these are Judicial Review applications and initial asylum claims); disruption by the individual being initial asylum claims); disruption by the individual being removed; and cancellation of flights. removed; and cancellation of flights. The vast majority of tickets booked for removals are The vast majority of tickets booked for removals are either fully or part refundable. either fully or part refundable. 1 These figures are provisional, based on management information, 1 These figures are provisional, based on management information, not subject to the detailed checks that apply for National Statistics not subject to the detailed checks that apply for National Statistics and may be subject to change. and may be subject to change.

Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Deportation: Offenders Home Department how many removal directions for foreign national prisoners have been cancelled by the UK Border Agency in the latest period for which Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the figures are available; what the reasons were in each Home Department (1) how much was spent on the case; how many of these removal directions involved facilitated return scheme in each year since 2007-08; non-refundable flights; and how much it cost the [24209] Agency to cancel such flights. [30244] (2) how many foreign national prisoners received financial assistance under the facilitated return scheme Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: in the last 12 months; [24210] 1 1,143 removal directions were cancelled by UK Border (3) how many foreign national prisoners have Agency for foreign national prisoner (FNP) cases for received financial assistance under the facilitated return the period 1 April–4 December 2010. This figure is scheme since 1 October 2010; [24176] based on instances of failed removals not numbers of individuals, i.e. one person could fail to be removed on (4) how much has been spent on the facilitated return a number of occasions. These FNP failed removals scheme since 1 October 2010; [24178] form part of the asylum and non asylum data supplied (5) how many foreign national prisoners who in separate answers, they are not additional failed removals. received financial assistance under the facilitated return The reasons in each case, the number of cases involving scheme are known to have returned to the UK in each non-refundable flights and the cost to the Agency to of the last five years; [24179] cancel such flights could be obtained only by a detailed (6) what mechanism she has put in place to prevent a examination of individual records at disproportionate beneficiary of the facilitated return scheme returning cost. to the UK. [24181] There are many reasons for the failure of removal directions. Amongst the most common are: further or Damian Green: The Facilitated Return Scheme (FRS) additional representations received on a case (the most accounted for approximately 30% of the 5,530 foreign common of these are Judicial Review applications and national prisoner removals from the UK in 2009, and initial asylum claims); disruption by the individual being for around 50% of the 2,425 foreign national prisoner removed; and cancellation of flights. removals in quarters 1 and 2 of 2010. We are unable to The vast majority of tickets booked for removals are advise at the current time the numbers who have received either fully or part refundable. financial assistance and the amount spent on FRS since October 2010. Removal figures for quarter 3 of 2010 1 These figures are provisional, based on management information, was published at the end of November, and for quarter not subject to the detailed checks that apply for National Statistics and may be subject to change. four early in 2011. Once this information has been published the UK Border Agency will be able to confirm Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the the number of foreign national prisoners removed under Home Department how many removal directions for FRS and the average amount of assistance provided failed asylum seekers have been cancelled by the UK during those periods. Border Agency in the latest period for which figures are Expenditure on FRS from inception in October 2006 available; what the reasons were in each case; how to March 2009 was approximately £4.3 million. The many of these removal directions involved non- cost of running the scheme for 2009-10 was £7.1 million refundable flights; and how much it cost the Agency to (including £2.3 million of EU funding) and for 2010-11 cancel such flights. [30245] is expected to be £9.7 million (including £2.7 million of EU funding). This is a slightly higher figure than previously Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: reported for 2009-10 as the scheme has been successful 4,7001 removal directions were cancelled by the UK in removing a larger number of foreign national prisoners Border Agency for asylum cases for the period 1 April than estimated. to 4 December 2010. This figure is based on instances of The Facilitated Return Scheme is a practical solution failed removals not numbers of individuals, i.e. one that not only saves the taxpayer money in the long run, person could fail to be removed on a number of occasions. but also means foreign criminals are removed as soon as The reasons in each case, the number of cases involving possible, denying them the opportunity to re-offend or non-refundable flights and the cost to the Agency to drag out the removals process. All foreign national cancel such flights could be obtained only by a detailed prisoners are entered on our watch list when removed, examination of individual records at disproportionate so checks can be made to prevent those who are barred cost. and those who have no right from re-entering the UK. 667W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 668W

Only in the most exceptional circumstances would an value training - the value of UK education and training individual who had taken the FRS package be approved exports: an update, when considering changes to the for re-entry to the UK, or for their exclusion to be lifted rules governing student visas. [30222] by the Home Secretary. These cases are considered very carefully and in line with policy. We are aware of two Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: individuals removed under FRS who have later successfully This report focused on the value to the UK economy of applied to have their exclusion orders lifted, to allow UK education and training, but does not relate directly them to return to the UK. We are also aware of a small to the value of international students entering through number of individuals who have re-entered illegally Tier 4 of the points-based system. For example, it having taken up FRS. In such cases we take urgent includes income generated for UK institutions by campuses action to remove them from the UK. They would not be overseas, and off-campus expenditure of business visitors eligible to re-apply for the scheme. to the UK who happen to be staying in university In order to make the scheme more affordable and accommodation. bring it in line with other assisted voluntary, return Global Peace and Unity Conference programmes, it has been necessary to reduce the amount of assistance given to those who leave the country John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the under FRS. As of 1 October 2010, those who apply for Home Department whether her Department and are accepted onto the scheme will receive a reduced monitored the presence of banned (a) organisations cash payment amount. We anticipate that high numbers and (b) materials at the Global Peace and Unity of individuals will continue to take up the scheme and conference of 23-24 October 2010. [27546] we will monitor the level of applications over the coming months. Nick Herbert: The Home Office did not monitor the presence of banned organisations and materials at the Detention Centres: Christmas Global Peace and Unity conference of 23-24 October 2010. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements have been made Human Trafficking for residential and operational staffing of immigration removal centres over Christmas 2010 and the new year Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent discussions she has period. [30144] had on international collaboration to combat human Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: trafficking; and if she will make a statement. [30263] Immigration removal centres operate throughout the year, including Christmas 2010 and the new year period. Damian Green: The Government recognise the Staffing will be maintained at the standard level for importance of international collaboration in tackling each centre to provide continuity of service and to human trafficking. ensure a safe environment for all persons detained. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I met the UNHCR High Commissioner, Antonio Guterres, Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the to discuss human trafficking. I also recently met the Home Department (1) whether Ministers in her Afghan Minister for Refugees and Repatriation, Dr Department have signed any authorisations for the Jamaher Anwary, to discuss the issue of trafficking. continued detention of children at immigration The Government have focused their international removal centres beyond 28 days which provide for the effort through the European Union and other regional detention of children during Christmas 2010; [30145] organisations such as the Organisation for Security and (2) whether the UK Border Agency has made Co-Operation in Europe. arrangements in respect of children detained at Immigration Controls: Higher Education immigration removal centres during Christmas 2010; [30146] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the (3) how many families she expects to be detained at Home Department how many visas to work in the UK immigration removal centres during Christmas 2010. have been granted to scientists wishing to take up [30147] employment at a UK university in each of the last three years. [30338] Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: Current Ministers have not authorised any detentions Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2010]: of children in immigration removal centres beyond Information on visas that have been issued to applicants 28 days. The Government are committed to ending the who intend to work (a) in a particular profession, or (b) detention of children for immigration purposes and a for a particular employer or type of employer, is not review is currently under way to consider how this can available from the UK Border Agency’s central records. be done in a way which protects the welfare of children The information requested could only be produced by and ensures that families with no right to be in the UK checking individual records at disproportionate cost leave. The Government will make an announcement Immigration: South East before the House rises for Christmas on our plans for doing this. Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for the Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Home Department pursuant to the answer of 11 November 2010, Official Report, column 456W, on Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for the immigration: South East, how many records remain Home Department if she will take into account the open on the database to be dealt with by the Case conclusions of the British Council’s report on Global Resolution Directorate under legacy rules. [30183] 669W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 670W

Damian Green: When the asylum legacy cohort was Mrs May [holding answer 23 November 2010]: The announced in July 2006 by the former Home Secretary project to deliver the Police National Database (PND) (John Reid), he stated that there were an estimated forms part of the National Policing Improvement Agency’s 400-450,000 paper and electronic records that required (NPIA) IMPACT Programme. Within the NPIA there review. The cohort is not static, due to issues such as are 62 staff working on the IMPACT of whom 21 are errors, duplicates and paper and dependant records that police officers. have not yet been entered on to our databases. It is There are no Police Community Support Officers therefore not possible to provide an accurate figure for (PCSOs) assigned to this work within the NPIA. There the number of records that remain open. are also 226 staff working in Police National Computer The chief executive of the UK Border Agency regularly (PNC) Services within the NPIA. However none of updates the Home Affairs Select Committee on progress these staff are police officers or PCSOs. with this cohort on a regular basis. As reported in At a local level, police forces will also have staff November 2010 the, Case Resolution Directorate had assigned to work on the IMPACT Programme and the concluded 334,500 cases up to the end of September PNC. However, this information is not held centrally. 2010. Reoffenders: Dartford Members: Correspondence Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proportion of those normally Home Department when her Department plans to resident in Dartford constituency arrested had a respond to the letters of 10 August and 30 September previous conviction in each of the last five years. 2010 from the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay [30414] on her constituent Mr P. Ginn. [20004] Nick Herbert: Information is not collected centrally Nick Herbert [holding answer 28 October 2010]: I linking those arrested with previous convictions. apologise for the delay in replying. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Security (Baroness Neville-Jones) replied UK Border Agency: Trafficking on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary (Mrs May) on 7 December 2010. Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit the effects of reductions in UK Border Agency staff in Liverpool on the Agency’s ability to tackle people Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the trafficking; and if she will make a statement. [30000] Home Department how much funding her Department provided to the National Extremism Tactical Damian Green: The spending review settlement for Co-ordination Unit in the last 12 months. [26928] the UK Border Agency will mean that we need to reduce our staff by about 5,200 to around 18,000 by Nick Herbert: We do not disclose details of funding 2015. We are still working through the detailed planning provided to the National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination implications and will let our staff, partners and the Unit (NETCU) on security grounds. public know as soon as the plans are clear. Deterring, disrupting and detecting people trafficking Offences against Children: International Cooperation is a responsibility that we share with other law enforcement agencies, such as the police and Serious and Organised Crime Agency. The UK Border Agency continues to be Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for the committed to the strong regional and national partnerships Home Department if she will make representations to that are central to our approach to combat this brutal her international counterparts on international form of organised crime. agreements on legislation against child pornography. [30273] Visas: Students James Brokenshire: The UK strongly supports work Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for the to promote effective legislation against child pornography. Home Department what plans she has for the future of We will work both bilaterally and multilaterally to the student visa system. [30053] promote international cooperation to tackle this crime, and will ensure that the excellent work, of the Child Damian Green: On 7 December the Government Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) Centre and launched a public consultation on reform of the student their international partners continues. immigration system. A copy has been placed in the House Library. Police: Manpower Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Home Department how many student visa applications Department how many (a) police officers, (b) police from each country were (a) accepted and (b) rejected community support officers and (c) other staff are for study for (i) English language courses, (ii) primarily assigned to work on (i) the Police National foundation courses, (iii) undergraduate degrees, (iv) Database, (ii) the Police National Computer and (iii) postgraduate taught degrees and (v) postgraduate the IMPACT programme. [26077] research degrees in each of the last three years. [30084] 671W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 672W

Damian Green: A table has been placed in the Library representatives of the devolved administrations and the showing the number of student visas that were (a) Office of Fair Trading (OFT). Representatives of other issued and (b) refused for each nationality in each of organisations can be invited as necessary. Individual the last three years. The UK Border Agency is unable to representatives from the member organisations may break the figures down into type of course or level of change depending on availability. study from central records. This information could be Work has been conducted to examine the resilience of produced only by checking individual records which the Downstream Oil Industry by a task group of the would incur disproportionate cost. DOIF; a study carried out by Wood Mackenzie on behalf of DECC on this topic has been completed and is available on DECC’s internet site. Supplementary ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE work on aspects of the Wood Mackenzie report has Departmental Conferences been conducted within DECC and a further study has been carried out by UKPIA looking at the UK’s refining Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for sector; this study can be obtained directly from UKPIA. Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s I am currently considering the work conducted to date annual budget for conferences was at (a) 7 May 2010 and fully support the DOIF’s activity in relation to this and (b) 7 December 2010. [30034] important sector of the economy. Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Environment Protection: Employment Climate Change has not allocated any specific budget for conferences in 2010-11. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Publications Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the number of green jobs in the UK economy. [30309] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Gregory Barker: Government-commissioned research of his Department’s expenditure on printing (a) indicates that, in 2008-09, employment in the UK Low Command Papers, (b) papers laid before Parliament Carbon and Environmental Goods and Services sector by Act, (c) consultation documents and (d) other was approximately 910,000 and is projected to increase papers in each year since its inception. [28383] to over a million by the middle of the decade. This research is available online at: Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and http://www.berr.gov.uk/Policies/business-sectors/low-carbon- Climate Change was created on 3 October 2008. business-opportunities/market-intelligence The cost of each of these items could be determined EU Emissions Trading Scheme only at disproportionate cost as transaction records do not separately identify these specific types of expenditure. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Downstream Oil Industry Forum Energy and Climate Change (1) what assessment he has made of the likely effect on the UK oil refining Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State industry of the introduction of Phase Three of the EU for Energy and Climate Change (1) when he expects the Emissions Trading Scheme; [30430] report commissioned from the Downstream Oil (2) whether the introduction of benchmarks for Industry Forum to be completed; and if he will publish Phase Three of the EU Emissions Trading Scheme will that report; [30832] be phased; and if he will make a statement; [30431] (2) what terms of reference he has issued to the (3) what discussions (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Downstream Oil Industry Task Force; what the name is Department and (c) officials in his Department have of each member of that Task Force; and how held with officials of the European Commission since frequently it meets. [30833] May 2010 on the likely effect on the UK oil industry of Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Phase Three of the EU Emissions Trading Scheme. Energy and Climate Change (1) what terms of [30489] reference are for his Department’s Downstream Oil Industry Task Force; what the name is of each member Gregory Barker: My officials are in close contact with of the task force; and how frequently it meets; [30861] the European Commission and other member states about the implementation of Phase III of the EU (2) when he expects to receive the report Emissions Trading System (EU ETS). This includes commissioned from the Downstream Oil Industry discussing the rules to determine the amount of emission Forum; and if he will publish that report. [30868] allowances to be freely allocated to installations (including Gregory Barker: The Downstream Oil Industry Forum off-shore oil and gas and the oil refining industry) is the main discussion forum for strategic engagement which will be voted on later this week in the EU Climate between the downstream oil sector and the Government. Change Committee. The benchmarks will apply from It seeks to meet on a six monthly basis and is chaired by 2013. DECC officials. Membership comprises representatives My officials have undertaken assessment of the effects from: the Department of Energy and Climate Change on all sectors from the introduction of Phase III of the (DECC), the UK Petroleum Industry Association EU ETS. The analysis can be seen in the April 2009 (UKPIA), the Downstream Fuel Association (DFA), impact assessment ‘Impact Assessment on the EU Climate the Federation of Petroleum Suppliers (FPS), UKLPG and Energy package and the revised EU ETS Directive’: (acting on behalf of Liquid Petroleum Gas distributors), http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/ the Tank Storage Association (TSA), RMI Petrol, 77_20090423091800_e_@@_euclimateenergypackage.pdf 673W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 674W

Fuel Poverty: Walsall Community Land Trusts

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change what his most recent estimate is of Communities and Local Government if he will place in the number of households living in fuel poverty in the Library a copy of the report of the task force on Walsall South constituency. [30929] Community Land Trusts produced by Professor Carl Dayson. [30106] Gregory Barker: In 2006, the most recent year for which sub-regional figures are available, there were around Grant Shapps: This report was not commissioned by, 5,000 fuel poor households in the Walsall South or for, the Department for Communities and Local constituency. Government. Green Deal Councillors

Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Communities and Local Government what estimate he Department is taking to ensure that the Green Deal has made of the number of councillors who sit on both financing mechanism interest rates are conducive to district and county councils. [29480] high levels of household take-up; and if he will make a statement. [30652] Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on this issue on 16 June 2010, Official Report, Gregory Barker: It is essential that Green Deal finance column 447W. interest rates are as low as possible. The Department is therefore acting in three key ways. Firstly, we are progressing Councillors: Business Interests discussions with the finance community regarding appropriate financing solutions; and in particular, low John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for interest investment from the capital markets. Secondly, Communities and Local Government what plans he we are designing secondary legislation so that risks to has for a national register of councillors’ interests. investors from default and cash flow interruption are [29479] minimised. Finally, we are taking steps to ensure that the Green Robert Neill: Our proposals for abolishing the Standards Deal will operate at scale and thereby enable high-value, Board regime involve that in future, publicly available low cost financing solutions. Importantly, we will ensure registers of members’ interests are maintained locally that the energy company obligation supports the Green by councils, reflecting that the accountability of councils Deal. We are also taking foreshadowing powers through and their members is to their local electorate. We are the new Energy Bill to ensure that by 2015, the Government keen for this information to be published online in an are able—if necessary and appropriate—to require private open and standardised format. landlords to improve the least energy efficient properties. Departmental Energy

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the cost Affordable Housing: Construction was of (a) electricity and (b) gas supplied to his Department’s offices at Eland House in each of the last Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 months for which figures are available. [29669] Communities and Local Government if he will publish the modelling undertaken by his Department to Robert Neill: The energy spend at DCLG’s headquarter calculate the number of new affordable homes to be building, Eland House is shown in the table. The table funded through his proposed increase for rents for new shows the monthly cost for electricity and gas for the social housing tenants. [30216] last 12 months, the figures are inclusive of VAT.

Grant Shapps: We will be publishing our impact £ assessment on the affordable rent model early next year. Electricity Gas Anti-Semitism October 2009 37,563.68 1,640.96 November 2009 36,438.21 5,044.02 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for December 2009 37,117.40 9,458.31 Communities and Local Government what steps his January 2010 40,019.86 16,451.42 Department has taken to combat anti-Semitism since February 2010 36,795.55 10,864.31 July 2010; what assessment he has made of the March 2010 39,745.01 8,605.00 effectiveness of these steps; and if he will make a April 2010 35,310.98 3,861.04 statement. [29814] May 2010 36,173.36 2,571.99 June 2010 37,114.48 1,838.68 Andrew Stunell: The Coalition Government will publish July 2010 39,076.46 1,971.02 the three-year on response to the All Party Parliamentary August 2010 34.342.47 1,623.89 Inquiry into Anti-Semitism on Wednesday December September 2010 31,613.27 1,954.35 15 which will highlight the effectiveness and steps we October 2010 30,149.62 2,397.39 have taken to combat Anti-Semitism. 675W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 676W

The Department is committed to reducing the carbon Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and emissions of its estate by 10% from May 2010 to May Local Government draws evidence from the widest 2011. This will help reduce the cost of utility bills to the possible range of sources in the preparation of consultation taxpayer. documents. I would note that the Conservative party’s open Departmental Lobbying source planning green paper is explicitly referenced in the coalition agreement as providing the guiding principles Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Government’s planning reforms. Communities and Local Government with reference to his Department’s press release of 5 August 2010, which Departmental Public Expenditure arms’ length bodies with his Department’s area of responsibility have cancelled contracts for lobbying services. [29365] Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what Robert Neill: The Department has instructed its arm’s information his Department holds on plans for the length bodies to cease any contracts with public affairs level of its budget in 2010-11 made prior to May 2010. consultancies. [29382] The Audit Commission gave notice to terminate its contract with Connect Public Affairs on 2 February Robert Neill: At pre-Budget report 2008, DCLG’s 2010 following public controversy over its lobbying planned budgets were reported as £6.0 billion capital activity. Connect confirmed their contractual 28 day and £4.6 billion resource. notice period. In the March Budget 2009, £144 million additional Both London and Thurrock Thames Gateway capital was allocated for the Housing Pledge and shortly Development Corporations have confirmed that their afterwards a further £200 million capital was allocated contracts have been cancelled. London’s contract with to support the fiscal stimulus. The 2009 Budget also London Communications Agency is being allowed to reported Public Value Programme resource savings of expire on 31 January 2011 to avoid nugatory costs but £100 million from DCLG. These changes were incorporated no further activity is being undertaken under the terms in budget plans set out in Annex C of the Department’s of this contract. Annual Report 2009, published in June 2009. West Northants Development Corporation appointed At the pre-Budget report in December 2009, further Chelgate Ltd in November 2008. This contract was resource savings were announced, to be made by 2012-13 terminated in May 2010. (that is, in 2010-11 and 2011-12), as follows: The independent Housing Ombudsman Limited Public Value Programme cross-Government savings of £5 billion, previously engaged APCO. The most recent contract of which DCLG’s contribution was announced as £500 million completed in January 2010. broken down as: The Tenant Services Authority also had a contract £340 million largely for regeneration programmes, and; with APCO. The original contract expired in February £160 million for smaller DCLG programmes. 2009. A three-month extension with reduced services Operational Efficiency Programme cross-Government savings was then agreed for April to June 2009. No further of £11 billion, but DCLG’s contributions was not specified. contracts were entered into. At Budget in March 2010, further details on DCLG’s Ordnance Survey had a contract with Mandate contributions to the resource savings were announced, Communications. This contract with Mandate was to be made by 2012-13, as follows: terminated in May 2010. The Public Value Programme savings of £500 million were The Fire Service College used Four Communications broken down further as: in respect of a residential planning application. The £300 million from rationalising Regional Development Agency contract ended when the college obtained planning regeneration spending and programmes; consent on 2 June 2010. £40 million by concluding New Deal for Communities; Departmental Marketing £160 million further savings on smaller DCLG programmes, including £35 million from housing benefit costs and £25 million from ending smaller CLG-funded time-limited communities Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes. Communities and Local Government how much his DCLG’s contribution to the £11 billion Operational Efficiency Department has spent on promotional materials since Programme savings were announced as £200 million and broken 6 May 2010. [30776] down as follows: £130 million savings from back office, procurement and consultancy Robert Neill: The Department has spent nothing on and marketing; promotional materials since 6 May 2010. £70 million savings from arm’s length body rationalisation. Departmental Public Consultation Before May 2010, only £100 million of the total DCLG savings above had been announced as relating Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for specifically to 2010-11 and these were incorporated into Communities and Local Government what his policy is the budgets in the Annual Report 2009. on the citing of party political publications as evidence The remainder of the savings, were not allocated to in consultation documents issued by his Department. discrete financial years (as indicated above) but were to [27198] be made before 2012-13. 677W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 678W

Links to referenced documents: potential risks to communities. Each fire and rescue PBR 2008, table B18, pg. 214 authority’s IRMP enables that individual authority to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407010852/ decide how best to provide fire and rescue-related services, http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ including prevention and protection as well as response, pbr08_completereport_1721.pdf with resources being allocated on the basis of the evaluation Budget 2009—Table 6.1. pg. 130 of risk and where the risks are greatest. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407010852/ Local requirements are thus determined by local http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ people according to local circumstances. bud09_completereport_2520.pdf For those reasons, no formal estimate of firefighter Departmental Annual Report 2009 and non-firefighter staffing levels required by fire and http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ rescue services has been made by central Government, 1281142.pdf and no recent guidance has been issued by central Pre-Budget report 2009—pgs. 108-110 Government on the numbers of fire appliances and http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407010852/ firefighters required in each fire and rescue authority http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr09_completereport.pdf area. Budget 2010-pg. 93 I also refer the hon. Member to my letter to him of http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407010852/ 6 December 2010 about the comprehensive spending http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/budget2010_complete.pdf review, a copy of which I placed in the Library of the DCLG Budget announcement of £200 million OEP savings House. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100513032259/ http://communities.gov.uk/news/corporate/1516900 Government Offices for the Regions: Gallup EU Law Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much the Communities and Local Government how many EU Government Offices in each region have paid to Gallup directives are pending transposition into domestic in the last 36 months; and what the purpose was of legislation by his Department; and what estimate he each item of expenditure. [29381] has made of the cost of each such transposition. [27500] Greg Clark: There have been no payments to Gallup from Government office network resources in the last Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and 36 months. There has however, been one payment to Local Government currently has one EU directive pending Gallup of £834.24 through the Government office for transposition. That EU directive is: the south-east. This was made from programme funds Directive 2010/31 /EU on the energy performance of buildings. on behalf of my Department. This expenditure covered It is estimated that it will cost £2.5 million to transpose the travel costs of Dalia Mogahed, the executive director this directive into domestic legislation. of the Gallup Centre for Muslim Studies, who provided a key note speech at a Preventing Violent Extremism Fire Services conference hosted in the south-east.

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Homelessness: Rural Areas Communities and Local Government (1) what estimate he has made of the likely change in the number of Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for non-firefighter fire service posts to 2015; [30642] Communities and Local Government how many (2) whether he has issued recent guidance on the registered homeless people there are in rural areas in number of fire stations to be operational in each fire each region of England; and what steps his authority area; [30637] Department is taking to reduce homelessness in rural (3) whether he has issued recent guidance on the areas. [30383] number of fire appliances necessary to be available in each fire authority area; [30638] Grant Shapps: I have placed in the Library of the (4) whether he has made a recent estimate of the House a table setting out, for local authorities by rural number of fire fighters necessary to provide adequate classification in each statistical region, the number of emergency fire and rescue cover. [30639] households accepted as owed a main homelessness duty, the number of households in temporary accommodation, Robert Neill: Decisions on operational issues such as and levels of rough sleeping. fire station, fire appliance and firefighter numbers, and This Government are committed to tackling and associated issues such as non-firefighter posts, are taken preventing homelessness. We have protected Homelessness by individual fire and rescue authorities as part of the Grant funding, with £400 million over the spending integrated risk management planning process. review period. This will be made available to local The Government are committed to enabling local authorities and the voluntary sector to support their authorities and local communities to make appropriate work to tackle homelessness. We have made an additional decisions at the local level. Fire and rescue authorities £190 million available for discretionary housing payments are required by the fire and rescue service national and other forms of practical support alongside the framework to have in place and maintain an integrated Government’s package of welfare reform measures. We risk management plan (IRMP) which reflects local need have minimised reductions to the Supporting People and sets out plans to tackle effectively both existing and programme with £6.5 billion investment secured over 679W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 680W the next four years. I have also established a cross- allowing them to retain locally raised business rates, Government working group on homelessness bringing and introduce new powers to enable local authorities to together Ministers from eight Government Departments carry out tax increment financing. The review will be to address the complex causes of homelessness and carried out by my Department. rough sleeping. Local Government: Bank Services Housing Market John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what provision Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made for the capitalisation of local authority Communities and Local Government what steps he is debt arising from lost deposits in Icelandic banks over taking to encourage house price growth in the next five the next 20 years. [30422] years. [30459] Robert Neill: Local authorities have been able to Grant Shapps: I refer the hon. Member to the answer apply this year to capitalise impairment charges (excluding I gave her on 13 December 2010, Official Report, column interest) in respect of potential losses of investments in 483W. Icelandic banks, for assessment against the exceptional Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for financial difficulties criteria in the published guidance. Communities and Local Government when he expects The Department intends to notify applicant authorities annual house price growth to return to positive figures. of its decisions shortly. [30460] Multiple Occupation: Licensing

Grant Shapps: The Department for Communities and Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government does not publish housing market Communities and Local Government pursuant to the forecasts. answer of 13 July 2010, Official Report, column 693W, According to the recent house price forecasts produced on multiple occupation: licensing, if he will take by the new independent Office of Budget Responsibility steps to collect centrally figures for licensed houses for the ‘Economic and fiscal outlook’ report this autumn, in multiple occupation in each local authority area and the latest average of the HM Treasury’s independent for the purpose of assisting the monitoring of the forecasts, house prices are expected to rise from 2012 effectiveness of legislation in addressing sub-standard onwards. accommodation. [29288] Details can be found at: Andrew Stunell: The collection of data centrally by http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/econ-fiscal- DCLG on the register of licensed houses of multiple outlook.html occupation has been suspended and its continued collection http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/ is subject to an internal review of all DCLG statistical quarterlybulletin/qb090203.pdf data collections as part of the new Government’s goal Housing: Regeneration of reducing the burdens of data reporting requirements on local government. The Department’s statistics plan Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for will be subject to a public consultation in early 2011. Communities and Local Government when he expects Individual local authorities are required to maintain a to announce his plans for the future of the Housing register of houses of multiple occupation licensable in their area. Market Renewal Grant. [30770] Supporting People Programme: Nottinghamshire Grant Shapps: Following the spending review announcement, the Housing Market Renewal Fund John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for will cease to be run as currently structured in 2010-11. Communities and Local Government whether he has Post March 2011 it will be for local authorities to decide had discussions with Nottinghamshire county council whether to continue Housing Market Renewal partnerships on the proposed reduction in Supporting People and bid for funding to allow them to take forward programme funding in the spending review period. market renewal projects, and to consider how new incentive [29608] schemes such as the New Homes Bonus could benefit their areas. Andrew Stunell: The Government are committed to I also refer the right hon. Member to my letter on the protecting the most vulnerable in our society and, in spending review’s settlement for housing of 20 October taking difficult decisions to reduce the deficit, has limited 2010, a copy of which is available in the Library of the reductions in Supporting People funding. We have secured House. investment of £6.5 billion for the Supporting People programme over the next four years. Local areas will Local Government Finance continue to take decisions informed by local need in commissioning housing-related support services and Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for will have increased flexibility in meeting that need, as Communities and Local Government who will conduct the Supporting People funding is included in the general his Department’s review of the local government formula grant from April 2011. grants system. [30482] Officials within my Department have spoken with Nottinghamshire county council to clarify the proposed Robert Neill: The local government resource review reductions to the Supporting People programme and will consider proposals to introduce greater incentives the timeframe within which these administrative savings for local authorities to promote economic growth by will take place. 681W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 682W

Travellers: Children BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

Apprentices Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of Travelling families with Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for children who have no fixed abode. [29858] Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps he has taken to promote apprenticeship schemes; and if he will make a statement. [30305] Andrew Stunell: The July 2010 caravan count showed there were 3,636 caravans which have no authorised Mr Hayes: This Government are committed to increasing place to stop. The caravan count does not capture the the number of apprenticeships. In the comprehensive detail of family type and so specific figures for Traveller spending review, we announced that we will increase families with children are not available. investment in adult apprenticeships by up to £250 million during this Parliament. By 2014-15 financial year we Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State will have in place sufficient funding for 75,000 more for Communities and Local Government how many adult apprenticeships places than under the previous Travelling families with children were recorded as Government’s plans. having a fixed residence in each year since 2001. In this current public expenditure climate we must [29859] realise that expanding and improving the apprenticeship programme depends in no small measure on our ability Andrew Stunell: The twice yearly caravan count does to persuade a larger and more diverse range of businesses not capture the detail of family type and so specific to employ apprentices. We are therefore reducing figures for Traveller families with children are not available. bureaucracy making the system simpler for employers The caravan count shows the following figures of authorised and are considering how we might better support employers Traveller caravans in England since 2001: through improved funding arrangements. In November, we joined farces with business leaders and the National Caravans on socially Caravans on authorised Apprenticeships Service (NAS) to launch a new campaign Period of count rented sites private sites to urge more employers to take on apprenticeships. January 2001 6,336 4,564 In February 2011 the National Apprenticeship Service July 2001 6,201 4,255 will be co-ordinating National Apprenticeship Week January 2002 6,178 4,660 which will see apprentices, employers, and providers July 2002 6,145 4,571 showcase the benefits of apprenticeship programmes January 2003 6,138 4,806 and the value apprentices bring to organisations. July 2003 6,042 4,684 January 2004 5,848 4,890 Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2004 5,976 4,904 Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions January 2005 6,427 5,502 he has had with local authorities on their role in July 2005 6,454 5,371 promoting apprenticeships; and if he will make a January 2006 6,636 5,838 statement. [30306] July 2006 6,560 5,815 January 2007 6,564 6,509 Mr Hayes: The most recent discussions with local July 2007 6,605 6,552 authority representatives were through our Skills for January 2008 6,696 7,351 Sustainable Growth Strategy consultation events. We July 2008 6,553 7,083 are fully aware of local authorities’ important role in January 2009 6,785 7,400 promoting apprenticeships. July 2009 6,603 7,105 The executive chair and chief operating officer of the January 2010 6,870 7,866 National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) have also visited July 2010 6,862 7,648 a number of local authorities to discuss apprenticeships issues; including exploring opportunities for representatives UN Food and Agricultural Organisation from local authorities to be involved in apprenticeship week from 7-11 February 2011. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Many local authorities are already active in encouraging Communities and Local Government (1) what employers in their areas to employ apprentices, in offering information his Department holds on the level of apprenticeships to their own new and existing staff, and compliance of local authorities with the UN Food and in using procurement as a means of encouraging their Agricultural Organisation’s criteria for sourcing suppliers to recruit apprentices. sustainable timber; [27833] Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what assessment he has made of the compliance Business, Innovation and Skills how many higher of (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) its apprenticeship (a) starts and (b) completions there non-departmental public bodies with the UN Food were in the last 12 months. [30429] and Agriculture Organisation’s criteria for sourcing sustainable timber. [27856] Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of higher level apprenticeship programme/framework starts Robert Neill: The Department does not hold such and achievements in England for 2009/10, based on information. information for the year to date. 683W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 684W

Apprenticeship programme/framework starts and achievements, Business: Regulation 2009/10 2009/10 (provisional) Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Starts Achievements Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed Higher level apprenticeship 1,500 200 for benchmarking purposes the burden of regulation (level 4 or higher) on each sector of the economy; and if he will make a Note: statement. [30304] Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. Source: Mr Prisk: The Government recently announced the Individualised Learner Record Growth Review “The path to strong, sustainable and This Government are committed to increasing the balanced growth”. Although there has not been a specific number of apprenticeships, in particular, advanced and benchmarking exercise to assess the burden of regulation higher apprenticeships. British employers currently face on each sector of the economy, in the first stages of the a workforce with insufficient skills at intermediate technician Growth Review, departments will be looking at how and associate professional level, critical to many industries they can remove the barriers to growth, including regulatory of the future. Expanding level 3 and level 4 apprenticeships barriers, in six priority sectors: construction, retail, will make a significant contribution to remedying the health and life sciences, professional and business services, shortage of people with this level of qualification. manufacturing and digital and creative industries. The Information on the number of apprenticeship starts Government have also introduced a ‘one-in, one-out’ is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). rule to cut red tape and ensure that no new regulation The latest SFR was published on 16 November 2010 with a net cost to business is brought in without other http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ regulation being cut by an equal amount. statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Departmental Lobbying Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprentices Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for he expects there to be in (a) 2010 and (b) each year to Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how much his 2015. [30476] Department’s agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent from the public purse on influencing public policy through (a) employing external (i) public Mr Hayes: There were 273,900 Apprenticeship affairs companies, (ii) strategic consultancies and (iii) programme starts in 2009/10 for all ages, based on corporate communications firms, (b) external information for the year to date. marketing and (c) other activities in each year since its In support of the coalition Government’s principle inception; [23769] of greater freedom, “Skills for Sustainable Growth and (2) which of his Department’s non-departmental Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth” set out the public bodies have undertaken activities to influence abolition of central targets and increased freedom and public policy for which they engaged (a) public affairs flexibility for further education colleges and training and (b) public relations consultants in each year since organisations to respond effectively to the needs of its inception; and at what monetary cost in each such employers, learners and their communities. It will be for year. [23791] individual colleges and training organisations, working directly with their local partners, to determine the offer Mr Davey: Information for non-departmental public that best meets the needs of their communities. bodies is not held centrally and could be provided only From the 2011/12 academic year, there will be a single at disproportionate cost. Adult Skills Budget, with earmarked delivery for All expenditure has to be incurred in accordance with apprenticeships. As part of its allocations process later the principles of Managing Public Money and the this year, the Skills Funding Agency will set out a Treasury handbook on Regularity and Propriety. minimum expectation of apprenticeships delivery. Further I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency education colleges and training organisations will be Service, Companies House, the National Measurement able to use their single Adult Skills Budget allocation to Office, the Intellectual Property Office and the Skills expand apprenticeships. However, any diversion of funding Funding Agency and they will respond to my hon. away from apprenticeships is to be agreed with the Friend directly. Agency. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 10 December 2010: By the end of the spending review period we will be spending up to £250 million more than was provided I am responding in respect of the National Measurement Office (NMO) to your Parliamentary Question tabled 9 November under the previous Government. It means we can carry 2010, asking the Secretary of State, Department for Business, forward the additional 50,000 adult apprenticeship places Innovation and Skills how much his Department’s agencies and announced for 2010-11 into future years and add an non-departmental public bodies spent from the public purse on extra 25,000 by 2014-15. That will take us to 75,000 influencing public policy through a) employing external (i) public more places than under the last Government. affairs companies, (ii) strategic consultancies and (iii) corporate communications firms, (b) external marketing and (c) other activities The figures above are for adult apprenticeships, that in each year since its inception. is people aged 19 and above. Funding for 16 to 18-year-old As an Executive Agency operating within a Government apprenticeships is provided by the Department for Department, NMO does not spend, and has not spent, any Education. They will publish information on funding money influencing public policy. In our capacity as advisors to and learner numbers for 16 to 18-year-old apprenticeships Ministers on various policy areas, including for instance policy on in their annual funding statement shortly. the National Measurement System and on Weights and Measures 685W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 686W legislation, we contribute to internal policy making within UKTI does not collect data on the value of individual Government, but we do not use external public affairs companies, orders won by businesses using its services, as these are strategic consultancies or corporate communications, nor external a private commercial matter for the companies concerned. marketing, for these purposes. 1 UK Trade and Investment Performance and Impact Monitoring Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 7 December 2010: Survey (PIMS) PIMS 16-19 Report (Part 2) Table C.2.2. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary Question tabled 9 November 2010, UIN 23769 to the Secretary of Further Education: Standards State for Business, Innovation and Skills. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to you. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Companies House has not spent any money from the public Business, Innovation and Skills how many further purse on influencing public policy. education colleges Ofsted rated as (a) outstanding, (b) Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 11 November 2010: good, (c) satisfactory and (d) failing in the last The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation 12 months. [30425] and Skills has asked me to reply to your question how much his Department’s agencies and non-departmental public bodies spent Mr Hayes: This is a matter for Ofsted. Her Majesty’s from the public purse on influencing public policy through (a) Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, will write to my hon. employing external (i) public affairs companies, (ii) strategic Friend and a copy of her response will be placed in the consultancies and (iii) corporate communications firms, (b) external Libraries of the House. marketing and (c) other activities in each year since its inception. The Insolvency Service Executive Agency of the Department Further Education: Teachers for Business, Innovation and Skills has not engaged in any of the activities listed and therefore, the amount spent under each category Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for is nil. Business, Innovation and Skills what qualifications are Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 11 November 2010: required to teach in a further education college; and if I refer to your parliamentary question tabled on 9 November he will make a statement. [30428] to the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills requesting to know how much his departments, agencies Mr Hayes: All new further education teachers appointed and non-departmental public bodies have spent from the public from 1 September 2007 are required to hold or acquire purse on influencing public policy through a number of channels. within a specified period of time the following qualifications: The Skills Funding Agency (the Agency) is an agency of the (a) a ‘Preparing to Teach in the Lifelong Learning Sector’ Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and I confirm (PTLLS) award (or its equivalent), which is a minimum threshold that the Agency has not spent any monies from the public purse licence to teach for all who have an element of teaching in their on influencing public policy since its inception. role, irrespective of job title; and Letter from John Alty, dated 13 December 2010: (b) a Diploma in Teaching in the Lifelong Learning Sector at minimum level 5 (or its equivalent) leading to Qualified Teacher I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office Learning and Skills (QTLS) status for those in a full teaching to your Parliamentary Question tabled 09/11/2010, to the Minister role; or of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. (c) a Certificate in Teaching in the Lifelong Learning Sector at The Intellectual Property Office (IPO), an operating name of level 3 or 4 (or its equivalent), leading to Associate Teacher the Patent Office, has spent no money on influencing public Learning and Skills (ATLS) status for those in an associate policy since its inception. teaching role, (ie a role that carries significantly less than the full range of teaching responsibilities carried out in a full teaching Exports role). Higher Education: Finance Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many export Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for orders were won by British businesses as a result of Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has trade missions undertaken since May 2010; what the made of the effect on the economy in the Brighton and monetary value was of each such order; and if he will Hove area of the planned reduction in teaching make a statement. [30315] funding to the university sector; and if he will make a statement. [30112] Mr Prisk: Through its Performance and Impact Mr Willetts: Our reforms to higher education will Monitoring Survey (PIMS), UKTI tracks the value of shift the balance of public funds for teaching from benefits attributed by British businesses to their participation direct grant to institutions to funding that follows the in UKTI supported trade missions. The benefits are choices made by individual students. This will provide calculated by using independently administered surveys strong incentives for institutions to focus on providing of some 4,000 customers across the full range of UKTI high quality teaching as efficiently as possible. Over trade services each year. Results are published quarterly time, popular and successful institutions will be able to on the UKTI website at: grow and we expect new providers to enter the sector www.ukti.gov.uk providing they can offer teaching to the high standards For trade missions undertaken between 1 April 2010 students will expect. We do not expect the overall income and 30 June 2010 results will be available in January of the sector to reduce and we expect improved teaching 2011. Over the past two years, PIMS results show mean quality and better informed students to have a positive benefit per business participating in supported outward impact on the economy. We do not have the data in missions ranging between £101,000 and £285,000, measured order to make an assessment at the local level of the as additional profit attributed to business gained as a effect of the reforms in any particular area, as that will result of their participation in UKTI supported trade depend on the decisions taken by each individual institution missions1. in response to the new funding regime. 687W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 688W

Higher Education: Student Numbers Mr Willetts: The latest available information from the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown in the table. Figures for London boroughs are not Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for available, therefore local authority data has been provided Business, Innovation and Skills how many young as an alternative. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year people from each London borough entered (a) will be available in January 2011. Entrants to Higher university and (b) a Russell Group university in the Education courses at Further Education Colleges are last four years. [30214] not included.

Young1 Undergraduate entrants from London local authorities UK higher education institutions: Academic years 2005/06 to 2008/09 Entrants to UK higher education institutions of which: entrants to Russell Group institutions Local Authority 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09

City of London 15 30 20 25 5 10 5 10 Camden 1,025 965 1,005 1,120 285 265 255 315 Greenwich 995 1,125 1,225 1,375 130 150 150 180 Hackney 1,105 1,135 1,135 1,295 135 115 125 135 Hammersmith and Fulham 750 725 770 865 220 205 185 245 Islington 870 865 895 950 170 155 205 185 Kensington and Chelsea 710 715 790 750 250 300 290 285 Lambeth 1,335 1,350 1,395 1,585 250 240 245 295 Lewisham 1,310 1,380 1,470 1,670 215 210 205 250 Southwark 1,280 1,280 1,415 1,520 260 215 220 265 Tower Hamlets 1,075 1,105 1,145 1,370 80 75 80 85 Wandsworth 1,225 1,175 1,320 1,355 325 320 405 405 Westminster 880 900 910 975 250 260 270 265 Barking and Dagenham 650 655 755 920 55 50 60 80 Barnet 2,635 2,635 2,710 2,715 900 855 915 880 Bexley 1,060 1,130 1,185 1,300 150 155 190 210 Brent 2,145 2,145 2,175 2,285 425 355 410 410 Bromley 1,785 1,790 1,850 2,000 460 450 445 465 Croydon 2,075 2,115 2,295 2,495 425 390 465 440 Ealing 2,290 2,335 2,255 2,430 435 435 455 475 Enfield 1,955 1,975 1,990 2,205 310 335 335 350 Haringey 1,370 1,360 1,505 1,545 280 265 290 295 Harrow 2,030 2,050 2,240 2,270 545 575 640 610 Havering 1,015 1,010 1,105 1,205 135 135 160 130 Hillingdon 1,475 1,480 1,535 1,690 240 310 280 265 Hounslow 1,455 1,405 1,480 1,590 255 245 255 295 Kingston upon Thames 1,135 1,060 1,085 1,095 295 300 280 310 Merton 1,075 1,060 1,150 1,225 280 245 295 305 Newham 1,790 1,910 1,990 2,175 145 135 140 165 Redbridge 2,055 2,215 2,175 2,395 365 385 395 400 Richmond upon Thames 1,260 1,155 1,295 1,275 460 410 460 460 Sutton 985 1,060 1,090 1,155 220 240 245 255 Waltham Forest 1,330 1,445 1,485 1,555 125 160 140 150 Missing2 70 130 35 30 10 0 0 5 Total 44,215 44,865 46,880 50,415 9,100 8,960 9,510 9,865 1 Covers entrants aged under 21 2 Covers entrants whose local authority was not established due to missing or invalid postcode information Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Insolvency responses to a consultation on improving transparency in pre-packaged administrations. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, We expect to publish the Government’s responses to Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is both the OFT report and the pre-pack consultation taking to encourage greater transparency in the shortly. insolvency sector. [30158] We have also recently issued a call for evidence in relation to the regime for personal insolvency. Mr Davey: The Office of Fair Trading recently undertook As I stated in a previous answer, changes were recently a review into the corporate insolvency market, which made to the procedural insolvency rules in England and was published on 24 June 2010. This included a number Wales in April to require insolvency practitioners to of recommendations, in particular related to complaints provide more information to creditors on the progress processes and the structure of regulation of Insolvency of insolvency cases, in particular in relation to remuneration practitioners. The Government are also considering the and other expenses incurred. Additionally, creditors 689W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 690W have been given new rights to request further information SC@ nuclear/Nuclear Industry Association (NIA) from the office-holder on the remuneration and expenses Export support through UK Trade and Investment shown in the progress reports that they are sent. Engagement with the utility and reactor design companies on industrial opportunities. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how long on average it took for Overseas Students an insolvency case to be settled in the latest period for which figures are available. [30179] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which 15 countries outside the Mr Davey: The Insolvency Service does not record EU have the highest number of nationals studying in this information and I can add nothing further to the further and higher education institutions in the UK. replyIgaveon8September,Official Report, column 525W. [30083]

Insolvency: Fees and Charges Mr Willetts: The information is as follows: Table 1 covers UK higher education institutions and Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, shows the latest available information from the Higher Innovation and Skills whether his Department plans to Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Domicile has been set a cap on the fees charged by insolvency used as opposed to nationality as this is a more widely practitioners. [30156] used and reliable method of measuring non-EU students. Mr Davey: We currently have no plans to introduce Table 2 covers English further education colleges and legislation to cap the level of fees charged by insolvency shows further education participation figures by country practitioners. Power to set such fees rests with the of domicile for 2008/09, the latest year for which full creditors or the court. year data is available. Information on the nationality of The Office of Fair Trading recently undertook a learners in further education is not available. For both review into the corporate insolvency market, which was further education and higher education figures for the published on 24 June 2010. It recommended that the 2009/10 academic year will be available in January 2011. complaints process should be extended to include Table 1: 15 Non-EU countries ranked by highest number of enrolments1.UK complaints over fees charged by insolvency practitioners. higher education institutions. Academic year 2008/09 We expect to publish the Government’s response to this Non-EU country Enrolments report shortly. China 47,035 India 34,065 Local Enterprise Agencies Nigeria 14,380 United States 14,345 Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Malaysia 12,695 Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding Pakistan 9,610 from each source he expects to be available to each Hong Kong 9,600 proposed local enterprise partnership in each year of Canada 5,350 [30632] the spending review period. Taiwan 5,235 Saudi Arabia 5,205 Mr Prisk: No central Government spending has been Thailand 4,675 allocated specifically to fund the activities of local South Korea 4,275 enterprise partnerships. As set out in the White Paper Japan 3,870 on local growth, local enterprise partnerships will be Sri Lanka 3,555 expected to fund their own day-to-day running costs Bangladesh 3,490 and will also want to consider how they can obtain the 1 Covers enrolments to all levels and modes of study. best value for public money by leveraging in private Note: sector investment. Local enterprise partnerships and Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been proposed partnerships may also wish to submit bids to rounded to the nearest five. Source: the Regional Growth Fund or European Funding. It is Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). for local authorities to decide how much of their discretionary spending they allocate to local enterprise Table 2: 15 Non-EU countries ranked by highest learner responsive participation partnerships. in further education institutions. Academic year 2008/09 Non-EU country Participation

Nuclear Power Stations: Construction Pakistan 1,000 Iran 600 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Afghanistan 500 for Business, Innovation and Skills what Iraq 400 responsibilities he has in respect of the supply chain for Bangladesh 400 new nuclear facilities in the UK. [30236] India 400 China 300 Mr Prisk: This Department, working alongside the Eritrea 300 Department of Energy and Climate Change, focuses on Somalia 300 assisting business in being able to maximise their Nepal 300 opportunities in the global and domestic civil nuclear Brazil 200 market. Specifically this is supported by: Thailand 200 Nuclear Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre ( N-AMRC); Zimbabwe 200 Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) Nigeria 200 691W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 692W

Table 2: 15 Non-EU countries ranked by highest learner responsive participation institutions are shown by subject of study in the table. in further education institutions. Academic year 2008/09 Figures are provided for the 2008/09 academic year. Non-EU country Participation Information for the 2009/10 academic year will become Turkey 200 available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency Notes: in January 2011.

1. Figures include government-funded learners only, funded by the Skills 1 Funding Agency/Young Person’s Learning Agency. Undergraduate and postgraduate overseas student enrolments English higher 2. All figures have been rounded to the nearest hundred. education institutions—Academic year 2008/09 3. Figures include Learner Responsive funding stream only. Enrolments Source: Subject area Undergraduate Postgraduate Individualised Learner Record Medicine and dentistry 2,440 2,680 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Of which: Innovation and Skills which 25 universities have the Medicine 2,230 2,215 highest number of students from outside the EU. Dentistry 210 340 [30163]

Subjects allied to 5,815 4,770 Mr Willetts: The latest available information from medicine the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown Of which: in the table. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will be available in January 2011. Nursing 2,385 440 Biological sciences 3,355 4,155 25 UK higher education institutions ranked by highest number of non-EU Veterinary science 115 60 domiciled enrolments1. Academic year 2008/09 UK higher education institutions Enrolments Agriculture and related 405 585 subjects University of Manchester 6,845 Physical sciences 2,030 3,505 University of Nottingham 6,145 Mathematical sciences 2,710 1,300 University of Warwick 5,005 Computer science 4,700 10,330 University of Northumbria at Newcastle 4,875 Engineering and 14,350 15,460 London School of Economics and 4,745 technology Political Science Architecture, building 2,150 2,465 University College London 4,740 and planning University of Greenwich 4,635 Of which: University of Leeds 4,510 Architecture 1,235 770 University of Birmingham 4,295 Total science 38,065 45,310 University of Sheffield 4,200 University of Oxford 4,140 Social studies 8,070 10,085 University of the Arts, London 3,915 Of which: University of Hertfordshire 3,780 University of East London 3,715 Social work2 360 290 Sheffield Hallam University 3,650 Law 5,800 5,095 University of Bedfordshire 3,555 Business and 25,775 37,945 University of Cambridge 3,535 administrative studies London Metropolitan University 3,520 Mass communications 1,640 2,090 and documentation Imperial College of Science, Technology 3,505 and Medicine Languages 5,890 3,660 The City University 3,485 Cardiff University 3,485 Of which: University of Edinburgh 3,390 Modern Foreign 1,510 1,005 Middlesex University 3,350 Languages3 University of Westminster 3,335 Historical and 1,070 2,370 University of Sunderland 3,120 philosophical studies 1 Covers enrolments to all levels and modes of study. Creative arts and design 6,015 3,720 Note: Education 1,775 5,125 Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Combined 2,325 70 Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Total Social Sciences, 58,365 70,165 Humanities and Arts Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, All subjects 96,430 115,470 Innovation and Skills how many overseas students are 1 Covers full-time and part-time overseas students of all ages domiciled studying for (a) undergraduate degrees and (b) outside of the European Union. postgraduate degrees in (i) a science subject, (ii) 2 Social care is not listed as a principal subject on the HESA student record. medicine, (iii) dentistry, (iv) nursing, (v) social care, (vi) Social work is provided as an alternative in the table. 3 Covers the following principal subjects: French, German, Italian, Spanish, architecture, (vii) a social science subject, (viii) an arts Portuguese, Scandinavian, Russian and East European and European studies and humanities subject and (ix) a modern foreign and Other European languages. Chinese, Japanese, South Asian, Other Asian, language in England. [30164] African and Modern Middle Eastern studies and others in Eastern, Asiatic, African, American and Australasian studies. Note: Mr Willetts: The numbers of overseas (non-European Figures are on a HESA standard registration population basis and are rounded to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. Union) students enrolled on undergraduate and Source: postgraduate degree courses at English higher education Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record 693W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 694W

Science: Females This Department’s approach to diversity, including gender equality, will be developed as part of the detailed Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for budget allocations process, following the spending review Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) measures and settlement on 20 October 2010. Announcements concerning (b) funding he plans to provide to support women to our approach will be made in the light of the relevant enter the science, engineering and technology sectors decisions. during the spending review period; and if he will make Sheffield Forgemasters a statement. [30132]

Mr Willetts: Decisions regarding measures and funding Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State to support women to enter the science, engineering and for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he technology sectors will be made as part of the detailed has had with Ministerial colleagues on Sheffield allocations process, following the spending review settlement Forgemasters since May 2010. [30235] on 20 October 2010. Announcements regarding these decisions will be made as they emerge. Mr Prisk: Sheffield Forgemasters was discussed as appropriate with ministerial colleagues prior to the However, the proposed changes to student funding collective Government decision to not proceed with the mean that women taking out time to have a family will loan to the company on grounds of affordability. not repay their graduate contribution until they are earning £21,000, and are more likely to benefit from any The withdrawal of the loan is no reflection on the outstanding graduate contribution being written off company, the project, its management or staff or of our after 30 years. Additionally, 40% of women will contribute commitment to taking forward the facilitative actions less to the cost of their higher education under our to remove unnecessary barriers to new nuclear in the proposals, than under the current system. UK. In these difficult times, tough decisions have had to be made across Government. This was just such a During 2010, the Learning and Skills Improvement decision. Service (LSIS), has commissioned nine regional STEM support centres, making best use of existing structures Skylon Spaceplane (at a cost of £1.35 million), and has set out a number of priority themes for regional provider-led activity. One Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of of these is Equality and Diversity, and addressing under- State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent representation across STEM. LSIS is also pleased to assessment he has made of the potential viability of the confirm that a significant proportion of those leading Skylon Spaceplane; what assessment he has made of on STEM activity are female. his merits of Government support for that project; and As a result LSIS has funded a number of projects to if he will make a statement. [30890] support this priority area: 1. Careers guide: LSIS is working with the Centre for Science Mr Willetts: The European Space Agency is funding Education at Sheffield Hallam University to support careers proof of concept work for Skylon from UK contributions. guidance which will impact on the recruitment of women into This work is focusing on demonstrating the viability of STEM subjects. the advanced British engine technology that would underpin 2. During 2010, bursaries of £10,000 have been awarded to the project. Initial work will be completed in mid 2011 three college based projects which focus specifically on issues of and if the trial is successful, we will work with industry under-representation and progression to STEM study in FE. to consider next steps. 3. It is LSIS’s intention to continue targeting bursaries for this area in 2011, in line with the priorities we have identified for our Students: Fees and Charges STEM activity. In addition, LSIS has commissioned research into Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for the equality agenda and STEM and, in particular, the Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to low take up and progression of under-represented groups, monitor the impact of higher undergraduate fees on including women, into science, technology and engineering. take up of postgraduate provision; and if he will make a statement. [30186] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Mr Willetts: The Government will monitor participation made of gender equality in the workforce in the in postgraduate study to identify whether changes to science, engineering and technology sectors; what the undergraduate funding and finance system have any assessment he has made of the requirement for further effect on entry to postgraduate courses. action by the Government to achieve such equality; The Government are committed to Britain being a and if he will make a statement. [30133] world leading place to do research. The science and research budget will be maintained in cash terms over Mr Willetts: The Department draws on a wealth of the spending review period with resource spending of information and expertise on the subject of equality. £4.6 billion a year by 2014/15. We will ring-fence that This includes reports published by the National Academies budget to ensure continuity of investment in science and learned societies, EngineeringUK and technology and research. institutions, evidence and analysis from the Research Councils, and statistical information from the Higher Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Statistics Agency (HESA) and the Higher Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE), made of the impact of higher fees at undergraduate and many other sources. level on take up of postgraduate study. [30187] 695W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 696W

Mr Willetts: Lord Browne did not recommend any Trade: Developing Countries changes to the funding of postgraduate education but did recommend that participation in postgraduate study Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for should be monitored to identify whether changes to the Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps he undergraduate funding and finance system have any has taken to encourage trade links with developing effect on entry to postgraduate courses. We have committed countries; and if he will make a statement. [30316] to do so. Mr Prisk: Ministers are actively engaging with overseas Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for governments in these countries to develop better trade Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate he links. The Prime Minster’s trade-focused visits to India has made of the Barnett consequentials for Scotland and China, on which I went in support, and my own arising from the proposed change in the level of tuition trips to Russia and Brazil are prime examples of this. fees in 2012-13; [30534] UK Trade and Investment is targeting 17 key high (2) whether any Barnett consequentials will arise for growth markets—Brazil, China (including Hong Kong), Scotland as a result of implementation of proposed India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mexico, Qatar, Russia, Saudi changes to arrangements for tuition fees. [30540] Arabia, Singapore, South Africa, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, UAE and Vietnam—based on their Mr Willetts: Adjustments in the block grant totals for potential for growth and other criteria such as their the Devolved Administrations through the ″Barnett market match and scope for UKTI help. UKTI is formula″ are calculated on the basis of the overall responding to this demand for help to secure new change in departmental expenditure limits rather than business by: ensuring there are targeted services and any particular programmes within them. We have advice available for businesses considering these markets; consistently indicated that each Devolved Administration raising greater awareness among UK business of these— will need to make its own decisions about how to fund such as through the ‘Doing Business in Asia’ events higher education and the other services for which it is around the UK (November 2010, February 2011) this responsible within the overall total available to it. autumn and winter, and ‘Partner Middle East’; communicating to business the specific opportunities in them; and campaigning for better access for UK companies. Students: Loans The UK Government are actively supporting efforts to sign EU free trade agreements with India, Mercosur Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for (Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay) and ASEAN Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has (current bilateral negotiations are taking place with made of the debt owed to the Student Loan Company Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam) as well as seeking a by residents of the London borough of Bexley who are successful conclusion to the WTO’s Doha development in higher education in the academic year 2010-11. round, all of which would bring significant benefits to [30426] developing countries. Unemployment: Brighton Mr Willetts: The Department does not have estimates of student loan debt at local authority level for academic Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for year 2010/11. Information cannot be provided for academic Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in year 2010/11 as the application cycle for student support Brighton, Kemptown constituency were not in is ongoing. Students can apply for support up to nine employment, education or training in each month of months after the start of the academic year. Figures on the last five years for which figures are available; and if the student loan debt position at the end of financial he will make a statement. [30488] year 2010-11 are expected to be published at national level in June 2011. Information on loans paid during the Mr Hayes: The following table provides estimates of academic year 2010/11 are expected to be published in the number and proportion of people aged1 16 to 24 not November 2011 at national level. in education, employment or training (NEET) in Brighton and Hove local authority in each year from 2005 to Technology Strategy Board 2009. People aged 16 to 24-years-old not in education, employment or training Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for (NEET) in Brighton and Hove local authority Percentage of Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for 95% all 16 to 95% the future work of the Technology Strategy Board; and Number Confidence 24-year-olds Confidence if he will make a statement. [30357] NEET Interval NEET Interval 2005 3,000 +/-1,000 12 +/- 5pp Mr Willetts: As set out in this Department’s recently 2006 4,000 +/- 2,000 11 +/- 5pp published Blueprint for Technology and the Growth 2007 5,000 +/- 2,000 13 +/- 5pp Review, the Government are making the Technology 2008 5,000 +/- 2,000 12 +/- 4pp Strategy Board the prime channel through which the 2009 6,000 +/- 2,000 17 +/- 5pp Government will incentivise business-led technology innovation and are providing it with over £200 million This information is from the Annual Population Survey, to establish a network of technology and innovation which covers the period January to December of each centres to help commercialise new and emerging year, with 2009 being the most recent estimate available. technologies. The Annual Population Survey is the only available 697W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 698W source of data with a sample large enough to provide Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions local authority estimates of the number of young people welcomes all customer feedback as a way to improve the up to the age of 24 who are NEET. However, the sample quality of the services we provide. Recent feedback is not large enough to provide estimates for smaller and/or complaints received regarding the centralisation geographies, such as parliamentary constituencies. of our telephony services has included reference to the It is important to note that these estimates are subject accessibility of our services and the cost of contacting to large sampling variability and should therefore be us via 0845 telephone numbers. We constantly review treated with caution and viewed in conjunction with our service delivery to ensure we deliver the best possible their Confidence Intervals, which indicate how accurate service for our customers. an estimate is. For example, a Confidence Interval of The movement of local Jobcentre Plus offices to a +/- 5 percentage points (pp) means that the true value is national switchboard service is the latest stage in our between 5pp above the estimate and 5pp below the telephony strategy to provide single national numbers estimate. to access our services. However, direct dial calls to a 1 Age used is academic age, which is defined as the respondents customer’s personal adviser in their local Jobcentre age as at the preceding 31 August. Plus office are not affected by these changes and are still encouraged. Vocational Guidance Child Benefit

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the take in designing his Department’s new careers service number of parents who will cease to claim child benefit to provide expert levels of service to those of all ages; because a member of their household is a higher rate what (a) funding and (b) resources he plans to tax payer; and what mechanism he plans to put in place allocate to adults using the service; and what steps he to ensure that parents who do not claim child benefit plans to take to ensure that (i) graduates who have been will continue to receive credits to satisfy the conditions made redundant and (ii) qualified returners to the for long-term benefits, including the state pension. labour market can use this service. [30206] [29350]

Mr Hayes: The all-age careers service is being developed Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the written jointly by the Department for Business, Innovation and answer I gave on 17 November 2010, Official Report, Skills (BIS) and the Department for Education (DFE). column 827W, to the hon. Member for Bolton West To ensure expert levels of service to young people and (Julie Hilling). adults, both Departments are working with the Careers Profession Alliance to take forward recommendations Departmental Publications made by the Careers Profession Task Force in October 2010, and so raise the professional standards of careers Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance practitioners. To draw on the views, knowledge Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the and experience of the careers sector, a Stakeholder expenditure of his Department and its predecessor on Advisory Group has been established to inform the printing (a) Command Papers, (b) papers laid before design of the new service. The Departments will also Parliament by Act, (c) consultation documents and work with schools and local authorities as the service is (d) other papers in each of the last 10 years. [28370] established. Following the spending review, BIS and DFE are Chris Grayling: This information is not held centrally working through the detail of their spending settlements by the Department and could be supplied only at and are unable at this stage to confirm the funding and disproportionate cost. resources that will be available for the all-age service. Disposable Income: Pay The all-age careers service will be accessible online, by telephone and in the community. Careers advice and resources will be available to help redundant graduates Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and qualified returners to the labour market. Intensive and Pensions what the level of median (a) pay and (b) face to face careers guidance will be prioritised for those real personal disposable income has been in each year with the greatest need, and the details of this model are since 1990. [30092] being worked through. Chris Grayling: The Office for National Statistics carries out the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) each April. This is the most comprehensive source of employee earnings information in the United WORK AND PENSIONS Kingdom. Levels of earnings are estimated from ASHE and are provided for employees on adult rates of pay, Central Call System: Complaints whose pay for the survey period was not affected by absence. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for The ASHE was developed to replace the New Earnings Work and Pensions what recent complaints he has Survey (NES) in 2004. This included improvements to received on the central call system for individual the coverage of employees, imputation for item non- benefit claimants; and whether he plans to enable response and the weighting of earnings estimates. An claimants to telephone their local offices. [30885] ASHE backseries for 1997 to 2003 was compiled using 699W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 700W the ASHE methodology applied to the NES data sets. Table 2: Median equivalised household income 1990-91 to 2008-09, in 2008-09 Earnings estimates for 1990 to 1996 are taken from the prices, £ per week NES data, which was a GB survey. Before housing costs After housing costs Table 1: Median gross weekly earnings for full-time employees in GB for April of 2007-08 (UK) 404 346 each year from 1990 until 1996 and for full-time employees in the UK for April 2008-09 (UK) 407 343 of each year from 1997 to 2010 Notes: Median gross weekly earnings (£) 1. FES figures are for the United Kingdom, FRS figures are for Great Britain up to 2001-02, and for the United Kingdom from 2002-03. The reference period 1990 (GB) 229.4 for FRS figures is single financial years. FES figures are two combined calendar 1991 (GB) 246.9 years from 1990-91-1992-93 and two financial years combined for 1993-95. 2. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. 1992 (GB) 264.6 Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by 1993 (GB) 273.3 sampling error and variability in non-response. 1994 (GB) 281.9 3. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost and an after housing cost basis. For before housing costs, housing costs (such as rent, water rates, 1995 (GB) 290.3 mortgage interest payments, buildings insurance payments and ground rent and 1996 (GB) 301.1 service charges) are not deducted from income, while for after housing costs 1997 (UK) 320.5 they are. 4. Disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes 1998 (UK) 334.9 earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from 1999 (UK) 345.5 occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. Income 2000 (UK) 359.0 tax, payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. 2001 (UK) 375.9 5. Incomes are presented in 2008-09 prices and have been rounded to the-nearest 2002 (UK) 390.9 pound sterling. Source: 2003 (UK) 404.0 Family Expenditure Survey (FES) 1990-91 to 1993-95/Family Resources Survey 20041 (UK) 422.8 (FRS). 1994-95 to 2008-09 20042 (UK) 419.2 2005 (UK) 431.2 Future Jobs Fund 20063 (UK) 446.4 20064 (UK) 443.6 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State 2007 (UK) 457.6 for Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library a 2008 (UK) 479.1 copy of (a) each bid for funding from the Future Jobs 2009 (UK) 488.5 Fund made to his Department and rejected as a 2010 (UK) 498.8 consequence of the decision to discontinue the fund 1 2004 results excluding supplementary survey for comparison with 2003. and (b) his Department’s correspondence with each 2 2004 results including supplementary survey designed to improve coverage of such bidder. [29020] the survey. 3 2006 results with methodology consistent with 2005. Chris Grayling: The Department has not placed the 4 2006 results with methodology consistent with 2007. 5 Figures have not been adjusted for inflation and have been rounded to the requested bid documents in the Library as they could nearest 10 pence. be provided only at a disproportionate cost. We are able Note: to provide details of bids that were rejected as a consequence Full-time employees on adult rates of pay, whose pay for the survey period was not affected by absence. of the decision to discontinue the fund, the number of Source: jobs included in these bids and the proposed maximum ASHE Data 1997 to 2010/NES Data 1990 to 1996 value. The Department has placed the table with this information in the Library. Estimates of equivalised household disposable incomes Also included is the correspondence which was sent are available in the households below average income to all organisations which had submitted a bid to the (HBAI) series. This uses disposable household income, Future Jobs Fund after the 29 January. After that date adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors such bids would not have completed the assessment for household size and composition, as an income process and the results would not have been announced measure as a proxy for standard of living. These data before the general election in May 2010. Further individual are at a household not individual level. correspondence is not collated centrally and could be Table 2: Median equivalised household income 1990-91 to 2008-09, in 2008-09 provided only at disproportionate cost to the Department. prices, £ per week Before housing costs After housing costs Housing Benefit

1990-91 (UK) 319 253 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State 1991-92 (UK) 321 255 for Work and Pensions what proportion of local rental 1992-93 (UK) 322 256 markets he expects to be affordable to recipients of 1993-95 (UK) 327 261 local housing allowance in 2014-15. [25931] 1994-95 (GB) 322 254 1995-96 (GB) 322 255 Steve Webb: The information is not available. The 1996-97 (GB) 336 268 proportion of local rents affordable to local housing 1997-98 (GB) 342 273 allowance recipients in 2014-15 will depend on movements 1998-99 (GB) 348 279 in local rental markets between now and then and the 1999-2000 (GB) 358 291 detailed design of the measure to link local housing 2000-01 (GB) 369 302 allowance rates to the consumer price index from April 2001-02 (GB) 388 319 2013. 2002-03 (UK) 395 330 2004-05 (UK) 398 337 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State 2005-06 (UK) 402 342 for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the 2006-07 (UK) 404 344 hon. Member for Aberdeen South of 22 November 701W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 702W

2010, Official Report, columns 18-19, on housing Average housing benefit awards in South Lanarkshire by tenure type, benefit, if he will place in the Library a copy of the August 2010 international evidence cited. [29104] Average housing benefit (£ per Tenure type week)

Steve Webb: The international evidence referred to by Local authority tenant 53.80 the Secretary of State was work by Bargain and Doorley Registered social landlord tenant 67.26 (2009) and work on Britain by Meghir and Phillips Private regulated tenant 76.19 (2008). I have arranged for copies of these papers to be Private deregulated tenant (LHA) 92.88 placed in the Library. Private deregulated tenant (non- 81.80 LHA) Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for All tenures 62.29 Work and Pensions how many recipients of (a) housing benefit and (b) local housing allowance in (i) Members: Correspondence South Lanarkshire and (ii) Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency share their tenancy with a non- Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for dependant for which a deduction is made from their Work and Pensions when he plans to respond to the entitlement. [29369] letter of 28 October 2010 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms H Gourlay. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for [30594] Work and Pensions how many recipients of (a) housing benefit and (b) local housing allowance in Chris Grayling: Following a thorough search of the Edinburgh East constituency share their tenancy with a Department’s correspondence system, we are unable to non-dependant in respect of whom a deduction is locate this letter. made from their entitlement. [29537] Remploy: Manpower Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many recipients of (a) housing Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit and (b) local housing allowance in North Work and Pensions how many people Remploy has Ayrshire and Arran constituency share their tenancy employed at management level in each year since 2000. with a non-dependent person for whom a deduction is [30891] made from their entitlement. [30118] Maria Miller: The available information is detailed in Steve Webb: The information requested is not available the following table: at the local level. Total employed at management level The Department does collect information on non- Number dependant deductions but to assess the completeness of recording and quality assure the figures would incur a 1999-2000 308 disproportionate cost. 2000-01 313 2001-02 347 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002-03 370 Work and Pensions (1) what the average amount of 2003-04 424 housing benefit paid was for each tenure type in (a) 2004-05 455 South Lanarkshire and (b) Rutherglen and Hamilton 2005-06 450 West constituency in the latest period for which figures 2006-07 449 are available; [29363] 2007-08 498 (2) what the average amount of local housing 2008-09 466 allowance paid was for each tenure type in (a) South 2009-10 524 Lanarkshire and (b) Rutherglen and Hamilton West Note: constituency in the latest period for which figures are These figures cover anyone in the management structure from ’M1’ available; [29364] grade (first rung of the management ladder) up to ’X’ grade (senior managers and executive grades). (3) how many people in (a) South Lanarkshire and Source: (b) Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency Remploy receive local housing allowance. [29366] Social Security Benefits: Overpayments Steve Webb: The information is not available at the constituency level. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information his Department At present geographic breakdowns are only available holds on the proportion of over-payments to benefit for local authorities and regions. However, an exercise is recipients in Blackpool North and Cleveleys being undertaken to add other geographical areas to the constituency which were (a) due to customer error, (b) data; this will include parliamentary constituencies due to departmental error and (c) recovered from At August 2010, our records show that in South customers. [29388] Lanarkshire there were 3,570 recipients of housing benefit assessed under the local housing allowance arrangements. Steve Webb: The information is not available as data The average housing benefit award for each available on recorded benefit debt is not broken down by geographical tenure type is shown in the table. area. 703W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 704W

Universal Credit are available in the documents winter fuel payment (number of households) 2009-10 by parliamentary Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency (2005) and winter fuel payment (number Work and Pensions at what point during a payment of households) 2009-10 by local authority and gender. period universal credit will be paid to employees who These are available in the House of Commons Library are paid monthly. [27977] and on the internet at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wfp Chris Grayling: No decisions have yet been made on the timing and frequency of payments of universal Winter Fuel Payments: Taxation credit, though we are considering whether payment should be made monthly to align with the most common Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and payment pattern for earnings. Pensions what the revenue cost of exempting the winter fuel payment from taxation was in the latest period for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for which figures are available. [30038] Work and Pensions whether he plans to make the Steve Webb: By the end of 2010-11, we estimate that real-time earnings data provided for calculation of around £290 million would have been paid in income universal credit available to local authorities. [28169] tax on winter fuel payments in that year had they not been exempt from taxation. Chris Grayling: The administration of universal credit will be managed by the Department for Work and Notes: Pensions. We are working closely with local authorities 1. A winter fuel payment of £250 per household containing someone who has reached women’s state pension age is modelled. and the devolved administration on the implications for Where the household contains someone aged 80 or over, this them of the introduction of universal credit, but we do payment is increased to £400. not currently expect that local authorities will need to 2. Figures use HMRC data on the number of tax payers by tax have access to real-time earnings data. band for 2007-08, projected forwards using June 2010 Budget assumptions. It is assumed that all tax payers of appropriate age Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for get a winter fuel payment. Work and Pensions what mechanism he plans to put in place to enable people without online access to (a) apply for universal credit and (b) access their universal ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS credit accounts. [28206] Biodiversity Chris Grayling: Claims to universal credit will normally be made online, and we will work with partners across Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for and outside Government to ensure that people are able Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has to take advantage of the online service. Where that is had recent discussions with the Secretary of State for not possible, we will offer alternative access routes, International Development on the role of her predominantly by phone but also face to face where Department in supporting protection of biodiversity necessary. overseas through the projects it delivers. [30344] [holding answer 13 December 2010]: Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon Work and Pensions whether an employee’s universal Ministers have discussed the outcomes of the Convention credit will be paid (a) late or (b) on time but on the on Biological Diversity in Nagoya and how to take basis of previous data in a case where real-time them forward, particularly on biodiversity, development and climate mitigation and adaptation, and in the context earnings data from an employer is delayed. [28211] of wider international engagement. Chris Grayling: Employers will be expected to provide My colleagues at the Department for International earnings data at the same time as making payments of Development are committed to integrating environment earnings to their employees. If this does not occur we and climate change into development, including will put arrangements in place to ensure that payments environment and climate proofing our official development to universal credit recipients are not delayed. assistance spending. Common Land Winter Fuel Payments: Reading West Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what powers and Pensions how many claims for winter fuel local authorities have to designate land within their payments his Department received from households in ownership and for the use of the public as town or (a) Reading West constituency, (b) Reading borough village greens. [29843] and (c) West Berkshire in the most recent 12 months Richard Benyon: Landowners, including local authorities, for which figures are available. [29993] can apply under section 15(8) of the Commons Act 2006 to register their land as a town or village green, a Steve Webb: Most winter fuel payments are paid procedure known as “voluntary dedication”. Guidance automatically without the need to claim them. on the voluntary dedication of land as a green has been The latest available information on the number of published on the DEFRA website at: households receiving winter fuel payments in Reading www.defra.gov.uk/rural/protected/commonland/ West constituency, Reading borough and West Berkshire guidance.htm#4 705W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 706W

CABINET OFFICE Number of enterprise deaths for 2009 in rural areas Business: Closures Number London 105 Fiona Bruce: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet South-east 12,115 Office how many businesses have ceased trading in each South-west 8,585 local authority area in England in each of the last three Wales 4,155 years. [30384] Scotland 5,575 Northern Ireland 2,710 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the UK 65,395 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Note: asked the authority to reply. Rural areas are defined as output areas and wards where the bulk of their Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2010: population falls in a settlement of less than 10,000 residents. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Iraq Committee of Inquiry: Public Appointments have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question concerning how many businesses have ceased trading in each Mr Llwyd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office local authority area in England in each of the last three years. whether the appointment of Margaret Aldred to the [30384] secretariat of the Iraq Inquiry was made under his Annual statistics on the number of enterprise births and survivals Department’s managed move procedures. [30902] are available from the ONS release on Business Demography at www.statistics.gov.uk. The tables contain the latest statistics available, Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer the which show enterprise deaths at county and county district level between 2007 and 2009. Please note that data for 2009 is provided Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend in a separate table, as it includes totals for the seven new Unitary the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Authorities introduced in April 2009. A copy has been placed in Hurd) gave on 1 December 2010, Official Report, columns the Libraries of the House. 882-83W. Unemployment: Rural Areas Fiona Bruce: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many businesses in rural areas have ceased Fiona Bruce: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet trading in each region in each of the last three years. Office what the level of unemployment was in rural [30385] areas in each region in each of the last 10 quarters. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the [30386] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the asked the authority to reply. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2010: asked the authority to reply. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2010: have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question concerning how many businesses in rural areas have ceased trading As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I in each region in each of the last three years. [30385] have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what the level of unemployment was in rural areas in each region Annual statistics on the number of enterprise births and survivals in each of the last 10 quarters. (30386) are available from the ONS release on Business Demography at The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment www.statistics.gov.uk statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey However, information on urban and rural areas is only available (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. for 2009. The following table contains the latest statistics available, Table 1 shows the number unemployed people in rural areas in which show enterprise deaths in rural areas by Government each region from the APS for the latest 10 periods to the 12 Office Region for 2009. months ending March 2010, which is the latest period for which Number of enterprise deaths for 2009 in rural areas data is available. Estimates from the APS are not available for Number Northern Ireland. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS and North-east 1,705 Annual LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the North-west 4,565 quality of the estimates is given in table 1. Yorkshire and The Humber 4,800 National and local area estimates for many labour market East midlands 6,620 statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant West midlands 4,915 count are available on the NOMIS website at East of England 9,545 http://www.nomisweb.co.uk

Table 1: Number of people unemployed in rural areas1 in English regions, Wales and Scotland Thousand 12 month period ending 2007 2008 2009 20102 Dec Mar June Sept Dec Mar June Sept Dec March

North-east 11 11 11 13 14 16 17 16 17 ***17 North-west 12 12 13 12 12 16 18 21 24 **25 Yorkshire and 22 19 19 17 17 19 23 23 25 **28 The Humber East midlands 23 21 21 20 21 28 31 35 34 ***36 West midlands 16 16 14 16 16 19 23 24 25 ***22 East 30 31 29 33 38 40 40 42 43 **42 London —————————— 707W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 708W

Table 1: Number of people unemployed in rural areas1 in English regions, Wales and Scotland Thousand 12 month period ending 2007 2008 2009 20102 Dec Mar June Sept Dec Mar June Sept Dec March

South-east 29 30 28 29 32 35 40 46 48 **51 South-west 29 29 26 25 29 32 39 43 45 **50 Wales 22 22 23 25 26 27 31 30 33 **32 Scotland 31 32 31 31 36 35 40 47 47 **46 Northern —————————— Ireland ‘—’ = Not available 1 There is currently no UK-wide standard classification of Urban and Rural land. There are, however, agreed standards for each of the separate administrations. See the following links for details on the classifications and their methodologies: England and Wales: www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/nrudp.asp Scotland: www.scotland.gov.uk/library5/rural/seurc-00.asp Northern Ireland: www.nisra.gov.uk/geography/default.asp10.htm 2 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Annual Population Survey

TREASURY public and (b) private sector jobs in Sunderland Central constituency and in England in the period up Departmental Travel to 2015. [30367]

Paul Maynard: To ask the Chancellor of the Danny Alexander: The Office for Budget Responsibility Exchequer how much his Department spent on grey (OBR) was formed in May 2010 to make an independent fleet in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [28855] assessment of the public finances and the economy. On 29 November 2010, the OBR released the official Danny Alexander: The Treasury spent £5,795 in 2008-09 forecast for total employment and general Government and £5,834 in 2009-10 on business mileage claims for employment, updated for the spending review staff using their own vehicles. Private vehicles are only announcements. used on official business where there is a benefit to the As the OBR sets out in paragraph 3.98, page 62 of its Department and it represents the most cost effective “November 2010 Economic and fiscal outlook” (Cm means of transport. 7979), it expects total employment to rise by 1.1 million Economic Policy: EU Action over the next five years, from 29.0 million in 2010 to 30.1 million in 2015. General Government employment is projected to fall by just over 400,000 between 2010-11 Mr Cash: To ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer and 2015-16, more than offset by a rise in market sector what legal advice he has (a) sought and (b) received employment of around 1.5 million. on the compatibility of the European Financial Stability Mechanism with provisions of the Treaties (i) The OBR has not published forecasts on a sub-national prior to and (ii) subsequent to agreement to Council level. Regulation No. 407/2010; and if he will make a statement. [30900] EU Grants and Loans: Republic of Ireland

Mr Hoban: The European Financial Stability Mechanism Mr Cash: To ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer (EFSM) was created following agreement by a qualified pursuant to the Answer of 2 December 2010, Official majority of member states at the ECOFIN meeting on Report, column 977W, on EU grants and Loans: 9 May 2010. The terms of the EFSM are set out in EU Republic of Ireland, what assessment he made of the Council Regulation No. 407/2010 and it is compatible legal advice available to him in determining that he had with the Treaty on the Functioning of the European full confidence in the (a) adherence to and (b) Union. Treasury Ministers received advice on this issue, compliance with the terms set out in article 3 of including legal advice, as part of the process of policy Council Regulation No. 407/2010 by each relevant EU development. institution. [30901]

Employment Mr Hoban: The European Financial Stability Mechanism (EFSM) was created following agreement by a qualified Julie Elliott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer majority of member states at the ECOFIN meeting on if he will estimate the change in the number of (a) 9 May 2010. The terms of the EFSM are set out in EU 709W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 710W

Council Regulation No. 407/2010. Treasury Ministers Students: Fees and Charges received advice on this issue, including legal advice, as part of the process of policy development. Mr Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the average annual Football: South Africa cost to the Exchequer of ending university tuition fees for all domestic full and part-time higher education Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the students. [30011] Exchequer how much his Department spent on entertainment activities related to the 2010 FIFA Danny Alexander: Lord Browne’s independent review of higher education funding and student finance, which World Cup. [27362] was published in October this year, before the spending Danny Alexander: No entertainment spending related review, estimated the cost of replacing tuition fees at to the 2010 FIFA World Cup was incurred by the around £3 billion a year. Treasury. Taxation: Self-assessment

Members: Correspondence John Howell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many tax return forms were issued to (a) women Mr Baron: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (b) men in 2009-10. [30388] when he plans to respond to the letters of 5 and 15 October 2010 from the hon. Member for Basildon and Mr Gauke [holding answer 13 December 2010]: It is Billericay on his constituent Mr Kerwin. [27276] estimated that 6.3 million men and 3.1 million women were issued with Self Assessment Returns for the 2008-09 Justine Greening [holding answer 29 November 2010]: tax year during 2009-10. I have replied to the hon. Member.

Public Expenditure DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Simon Kirby: To ask the Chancellor of the House of Lords: Reform Exchequer what steps he is taking to ensure that the Government’s expenditure proposals do not Gavin Shuker: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister disproportionately affect people on low incomes. when he plans to bring forward proposals for reform of [19087] the House of Lords. [29949]

Justine Greening: The Spending Review Framework Mr Harper: A cross-party Committee, chaired by the (Cm 7872) clearly stated that public spending decisions Deputy Prime Minister, will come forward with proposals would be made in line with the Government’s values of for a wholly or mainly elected second chamber. freedom, fairness and responsibility. The Government’s The Government will publish a draft Bill early next approach to public spending ensures that expenditure is year. The Bill will then be subject to pre-legislative focused on protecting the quality of the key front scrutiny. The Government hopes that this will be carried services that are important to the public and provide out by a joint committee of both Houses. support to those who need it most. Members To ensure that the choices made in tackling the deficit are fair, the Government have for the first time undertaken Gavin Shuker: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister and published a distributional analysis of the impacts what factors he took into account when developing his of the Spending Review (see Annex B in the ’Spending proposals to reduce the number of hon. Members to Review 2010’ document). This shows that after combining 600. [29946] the impact of tax, benefits and public service spending changes, the highest quintile of earners will make the Mr Harper: Ultimately it is a matter of judgment as greatest contribution towards reducing the deficit as a to the most suitable size of the House, and Ministers percentage of their income and benefits in kind. decided that a modest reduction to 600 seats would be The Government have ensured fairness by: appropriate, mindful that hon. Members must be able investing £7 billion in 15 hours of free childcare for disadvantaged to serve their constituents and that the House must be two-year-olds; a pupil premium for those at school, and help to of sufficient size to be able to carry out its functions get to university. effectively. Under the Government’s proposals, the increases in the child tax credit, worth £180 above indexation 1 December 2009 register suggests the electoral quota in 2011-12 and £160 above indexation in 2012-13; for the UK would be around 76,000. More than a third creating a triple guarantee to uprate the basic state pension by of the existing constituencies are already within 5% either earnings, prices or 2.5%, whichever is highest; side of 76,000, so the impact of our proposals will see increasing the standard minimum income guarantee in the constituencies of a size well within existing norms. pension credit by the cash rise in a full basic state pension in April 2011; Parliament preserving key benefits for older people, including winter fuel payments, free eye tests, free prescriptions, concessionary bus Gavin Shuker: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister travel, and free television licences; and what factors he took into account when deciding upon permanently increasing the award for cold weather payments five years as his proposed period for a fixed-term to £25. Parliament. [29950] 711W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 712W

Mr Harper: Current legislation provides for Parliaments Armed Forces: Mental Health Services of up to five years. A period of five years provides the right amount of time to allow for strong and stable Ms Gisela Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Government while still ensuring that Parliament and Defence what contingency plans are in place should a Government remain accountable to the electorate. catastrophic event prevent the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Birmingham from providing medical care for injured servicemen and women. [29999] DEFENCE Mr Robathan: In the event of a catastrophic event at Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations the new Queen Elizabeth hospital, military patients would be assigned to other NHS hospitals on the basis Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for of clinical need and bed availability, based on advice Defence whether he plans to meet his Albanian from the Department of Health and NHS (including counterpart to discuss (a) the Albanian contribution the University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation to the International Security Assistance Force mission Trust) at the time. (b) in Afghanistan and other bilateral defence issues. Armed Forces: Pensions [29936]

Dr Fox: I have no current plans to meet with the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Albanian Defence Minister. However, I do recognise Defence what steps he plans to take in response to the the important contribution Albania makes to the NATO order of the chairman of the War Pensions Tribunal to led mission in Afghanistan. disclose confidential documents relating to UK atomic tests. [28660] Aircraft Carriers Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for I gave on 30 November 2010, Official Report, column 746W, Defence what estimate he has made of the likely effect to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife on the economy of his decision to build two aircraft (Thomas Docherty). carriers. [30607] Armed Forces: Young People Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 13 December 2010, Official Report, column 648, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North Defence what assessment he has made of the (Catherine McKinnell). compatibility of the six-year agreement entered into by 16 year-olds on joining the armed forces with the UK’s Armed Forces: Anti-Semitism obligations under the (a) European Convention on Human Rights, (b) International Covenant on Civil Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Political Rights, (c) Convention on the Rights of what recent assessment he has made of the level of the Child and (d) Optional Protocol to the Convention anti-Semitism in the armed forces; and if he will make on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of a statement. [29789] Children in Armed Conflict. [29345]

Mr Robathan: While no such specific assessment has Mr Robathan: All due consideration has been given been made, any prejudicial behaviour would come to to domestic and international legal obligations in developing light through the services’ normal disciplinary procedures the relevant armed forces legislation and policies concerning and no problem with anti-Semitism has come to light. members of the armed forces who are under 18 years of A Rabbi to the armed forces has now been appointed age. and he confirms that there have been no instances where personnel have approached him regarding anti- Clyde Naval Base Semitism. Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Armed Forces: Housing what published information he has made available to local organisations and individuals about his estimates Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for of the (a) trend in the number of service personnel Defence what discussions he has had with the Secretary based at HM Naval Base Clyde and (b) the projected of State for Communities and Local Government on number of (i) single living accommodation bed spaces changes to housing needs attributable to relocation to and (ii) service family accommodation properties to be the UK of members of the armed forces and their built between now and 2021. [26317] families stationed in Germany. [30105] Mr Robathan [holding answer 25 November 2010]: Mr Robathan: Ministry of Defence officials are working On 6 May 2009, as part of an announcement regarding closely with those in other Government Departments, the Maritime Change Programme, the Ministry of Defence including the Department for Communities and Local (MOD) confirmed that HM Naval Base Clyde will Government, as we address the estates and basing issues become the main operating base for all classes of arising from the strategic defence and security review. submarines, including the future classes of submarines, This engagement covers many issues, including housing, such as the replacement for the Vanguard Class, Official and will continue as we develop our plans. Report, column 17WS. Since then, the MOD has and 713W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 714W continues to work closely with the local authorities in a procurement strategy that will replace the existing Warship the Clyde area to assess the potential impact of this Support Modernisation Initiative, which will deliver future elements decision. This has included releasing preliminary of Base and Royal Naval Fleet support to at all three Naval Bases, information, which includes initial estimates of the including HMNB Clyde, from 2013. potential numbers of personnel likely to move to the Turning to slide 17, which contains an estimate that the number naval base and their potential accommodation requirements. of Single Living Accommodation (SLA) spaces may increase from 2,250 to 3,250 and that the number of Service Family The information released was for future planning purposes Accommodation (SFA) spaces may increase from 515 to 685. As only and does not reflect what might be the final the slide highlights, predicting the future accommodation requirements position. is a complex area, and I would like to make it clear that these In view of his interest in this matter, I will write to the forecasts are about potential space requirements and do not hon. Member to provide him with a copy of the data necessarily indicate that the Department will need to build new released to Clyde local authorities along with an explanation accommodation to meet such a forecast. For example, it is possible that some of this requirement could be met by better utilisation of of how these forecasts have been calculated. existing capacity, including through refurbishment, and work Substantive answer from Andrew Robathan to Alan continues within the Department to assess how best to deliver the Reid: future SLA and SFA requirement. I can, however, confirm that In my recent response to your Parliamentary Question regarding informal discussions on how we might meet our potential future the trend in the number of service personnel that will be based at SLA requirement for HMNB Clyde have recently taken place Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde and their potential with the Argyll and Bute Council, but more work is required accommodation requirements (Official Report dated 30 Nov before the Department can place any formal plans before the 2010: column 745W), I undertook to write to provide a copy of Argyll and Bute Council. the data that was released to local authorities in the Clyde area. I understand that there has been recent local media interest in Please find enclosed a copy of the presentation used to brief local the potential numbers of personnel moving to HMNB Clyde over authorities in the Clyde area. This has been presented to council the coming years and the impact this might have on local services members and local government officers for Argyle and Bute such as education and health services. I would like to reassure you Council (22 September 2010), local Helensburgh and Lomond that the Department is committed to working closely with the Councillors (5 October 2010) and the Helensburgh and Lomond local authorities in the Clyde area to assist them in planning for Community Council (28 October 2010). It is also intended to the future infrastructure and support needs of the area. As part of present the same information to Shandon and Rhu Community this process of continuous engagement with the local authorities, Council on 8 December 2010. HMNB Clyde will continue to provide them with preliminary First, I would like to explain that this data has been used by the forecasts and to consult with them on the Department’s plans, Department for internal planning purposes and to assist local which may have an impact on the local communities. authorities in the Clyde area to review their arrangements in light I hope that you find the copy of the presentation helpful and of the potential future infrastructure and support needs of HMNB that this letter has helped to explain the calculations and assumptions Clyde. The data used in the attached presentation was produced behind the data contained in the presentation. before the outcomes of the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) were published and is based on a number of assumptions, Defence: Procurement elements of which may be subject to change. It has, therefore, always been presented with the caveat that the data should not be considered to represent the final position of the Department. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work remains ongoing within the Department to implement the Defence (1) how many suppliers of (a) equipment, (b) outcomes of the SDSR and HMNB Clyde will continue to update personnel, (c) parts and (d) assembly facilities for the their forecasts as this work progresses. Vanguard-class Trident submarine maintenance project Turning now to specific slides within the presentation, I would there are in each (i) Government Office region, (ii) local like to draw your attention to slide 13, which forecasts a potential authority area and (iii) parliamentary constituency; increase in the number of service personnel, between now and [29631] 2022, from 3,200 to 5,300. This forecast was based on the Royal Navy’s existing staffing levels required to support the Fleet and (2) how many suppliers of (a) equipment, (b) was produced before the publication of the SDSR, which as you personnel, (c) parts and (d) assembly facilities for the will be aware, confirmed the requirement for future manpower L11 5A1 Long Range Rifle are located in each (i) changes within the Ministry of Defence (MOD). The forecast Government Office region, (ii) local authority area and therefore, does not take into account any future reduction in the (iii) parliamentary constituency; [29655] numbers of service personnel. I can confirm that work is ongoing to assess the impact of the SDSR on HMNB Clyde, and this is (3) how many (a) equipment, (b) personnel, (c) being conducted alongside that already underway to assess how parts and (d) assembly facility suppliers for the best to implement the Department’s aim of making HMNB Astute-class submarine construction there are in each Clyde the main operating base for all classes of submarines, (i) Government Office region, (ii) local authority area including the future classes of submarines such as the replacement and (iii) parliamentary constituency; [29656] for the Vanguard Class. (4) how many suppliers of (a) equipment, (b) Slide 14 of the presentation includes a projection that the personnel, (c) parts and (d) assembly facilities for the number of all personnel to be based at HMNB Clyde would rise to 9,500. This figure includes the 5,300 figure discussed above and SA80 A2 L85 Individual Weapon are located in each (i) projects that the number of non-service personnel, including Government Office region, (ii) local authority area and MOD civilians, the Commercial Partner (Babcock Marine and (iii) parliamentary constituency. [29701] Technology Divisions) and other contractors, will increase from 3,000 to 4,200. When presenting the 4,200 figure to the local Peter Luff: I will write to the hon. Member about her authorities, the Department made it clear that there are substantial request shortly. margins of uncertainty in relation to this forecast. For example, the forecast was calculated assuming a direct correlation between Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for workload and workforce and does not take into account any potential efficiencies such as economies of scale. In addition, the Defence (1) what the monetary value was of payments estimate does not account for the reduction in the Department’s made by his Department to (a) Babcock International civilian workforce, confirmed in the SDSR, nor does it include Group plc, (b) Finmeccanica SpA, (c) QinetiQ Group any assessment of work ongoing within the Department to develop plc, (d) BAE Systems plc, (e) Hewlett-Packard 715W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 716W

Company, (f) Rolls-Royce Group plc, (g) EADS NV3, SAS, (g) Galileo Avionica Spa, (h) MBDA France, (i) (h) Lockheed Martin Corporation and (i) Thales SA MBDA UK Ltd, (j) Selex Communications Ltd, (k) was in each year since 2006; [29807] Selex Galileo Ltd, (l) Selex Sensors and Airborne (2) what the monetary value was of payments made Systems Ltd, (m) Selex Systems Integration Ltd, (n) by his Department to (a) BAE Systems plc, including Vega Consulting Services Ltd and (o) Westland payments made to BAE Systems/Rockwell Collins Helicopters Ltd in each year since 2006; [30087] Data Link Solutions LLC, (b) Corda Ltd, (c) Detica (7) what the monetary value was of payments made Group plc, (d) Detica Ltd, Europaams SAS, (e) IFS by his Department to (a) EDS Defence Ltd, (b) Defence Ltd, (f) MBDA France, (g) MBDA UK Ltd, Hewlett-Packard Ltd and (c) HP Enterprise Services (h) Piper Group PLC, (i) SAAB AB (Publ), (j) SAAB Defence and Security UK Ltd in each year since 2006; AB Gripen, (k) SAAB Barracuda AB, (l) SAAB [30088] Bofors Dynamics AB, (m) SAAB Seaeye Ltd and (n) (8) what the monetary value was of payments made SAAB Training Systems AB in each year since 2006; by his Department to (a) Airbus UK Ltd, (b) Astrium [29808] Ltd, (c) EADS Defence and Security Systems Ltd, (d) (3) what the monetary value was of payments made EADS Deutschland GmbH, (e) EADS France SAS, by his Department to (a) Aerosystems International (f) EADS Test and Services (UK) Ltd, (g) EADS Test Ltd, (b) Atlantic Inertial Systems Ltd, (c) BAE Engineering Services (UK) Ltd, (h) Eurocopter, (i) Systems (Defence Systems) Ltd, (d) BAE Systems Eurocopter UK Ltd, (j) Europaams SAS, (k) (Hawk Synthetic Training) Ltd, (e) BAE Systems Infoterra Ltd, (l) MBDA France, (m) MBDA UK (Operations) Ltd, (f) BAE Systems Australia Ltd, (g) Ltd, (n) Paradigm Secure Communications Ltd and BAE Systems Bofors AB, (h) BAE Systems Defence (o) Paradigm Services Ltd in each year since 2006; Ltd, (i) BAE Systems Electronics Ltd, (j) BAE [30089] Systems Hagglunds AB, (k) BAE Systems Information (9) what the monetary value was of payments made and Electronic Systems Integration Inc, (l) BAE by his Department to (a) Babcock Dyncorp Ltd, (b) Systems Information and Electronic Warfare Systems, Babcock Integrated Technology Ltd, (c) Babcock (m) BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies International Group PLC, (d) Babcock Marine Ltd, (n) BAE Systems Land Systems (Bridging) Ltd, (Clyde) Ltd, (e) Babcock Marine (Rosyth) Ltd, (f) (o) BAE Systems Land Systems (Munitions and Babcock Support Services Ltd, (g) BNS Nuclear Ordnance) Ltd, (p) BAE Systems Land Systems Services Ltd, (h) Debut Services (South West) Ltd, (i) (Weapons and Vehicles) Ltd, (q) BAE Systems Marine Debut Services Ltd, (j) Devonport Royal Dockyard Ltd, (r) BAE Systems National Security Solutions Inc, Ltd, (k) Frazer-Nash Consultancy Ltd, (l) Holdfast (s) BAE Systems Pinzgauer Ltd, (t) BAE Systems Training Services Ltd, (m) LSC Group Ltd, (n) PLC, (u) BAE Systems Regional Aircraft Ltd, (v) Rosyth Royal Dockyard Ltd, (o) Rosyth Royal BAE Systems Surface Ships Integrated Support Ltd, Dockyard Pension scheme and (p) Strachan and (w) BAE Systems Surface Ships Ltd, (x) BAE Henshaw Ltd in each year since 2006; [30090] (y) Systems Surface Ships Maritime Ltd, BAE (10) what the monetary value was of payments made (z) Systems Surface Ships Portsmouth Ltd, BAE by his Department to (a) Industria de Turbo Systems Surface Ships Support Ltd and (aa) BAE Propulsores S.A., (b) Optimized Systems and Systems (Aviation Services) Ltd in each year since Solutions Ltd, (c) Powerfield Ltd, (d) Rolls-Royce 2006; [29809] Corporation, (e) Rolls-Royce Deutschland Ltd and Co (4) what the monetary value was of payments made KG, (f) Rolls-Royce Marine Electrical Systems Ltd, by his Department to (a) Ascent Flight Training (g) Rolls-Royce Marine Power Operations Ltd, (h) (Management) Ltd, (b) AWE Management Ltd, (c) Rolls-Royce PLC, (i) Rolls-Royce Power Engineering AWE plc, (d) Lockheed Martin Aeronautics PLC, (j) Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Ltd and (k) Vinters Company, (e) Lockheed Martin Aerospace Systems Engineering PLC in each year since 2006; [30114] (f) Integration Corp, Lockheed Martin Canada Inc, (11) what the monetary value was of payments made (g) Lockheed Martin Maritime Systems and Sensors by his Department to (a) Europaams SAS, (b) (h) (i) Ltd, Lockheed Martin Overseas Corp, Quintec Associates Ltd, (c) Thales Air Defence Ltd, (j) Lockheed Martin Sippican Inc, Lockheed Martin (d) Thales ATM Ltd, (e) Thales Avionics Electrical (k) UK Insys Ltd, Lockheed Martin UK Integrated Systems Ltd, (f) Thales Avionics Ltd, (g) Thales (l) Systems and Solutions, Lockheed Martin UK Ltd, Communications Inc, (h) Thales Communications (m) Lockheed Martin UK Strategic Systems Ltd and Ltd, (i) Thales E-Security Ltd, (j) Thales Missile (n) Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin Joint Venture Electronics Ltd, (k) Thales Naval Ltd, (l) Thales in each year since 2006; [30085] Nederland BV, (m) Thales Norway AS, (n) Thales (5) what the monetary value was of payments made Optronics (Bury St Edmunds) Ltd, (o) Thales by his Department to (a) ASAP Calibration Services Optronics Ltd, (p) Thales Systemes Aeroportes SA, Ltd, (b) Boldon James Ltd, (c) Graphics Research (q) Thales Training and Simulation (ACE) Ltd, (r) Corporation Ltd, (d) HVR Consulting Services Ltd, Thales Training and Simulation (Eagle Middle Wallop) (e) QinetiQ Commerce Decisions Ltd, (f) QinetiQ Ltd, (s) Thales Training and Simulation (Merlin) Ltd, Group plc, (g) QinetiQ Ltd and (h) QinetiQ Target (t) Thales Training and Simulation Ltd, (u) Thales Services Ltd in each year since 2006; [30086] UK Ltd and (v) Thales Underwater Systems Ltd in (6) what the monetary value was of payments made each year since 2006. [30115] by his Department to (a) Agustawestland International Ltd, (b) Aviation Training International Peter Luff: General information on Ministry of Defence Ltd, (c) DRS C3 Systems Inc, (d) DRS Data Services spending with individual companies is available in UK Ltd, (e) DRS Technologies UK Ltd, (f) Europaams Defence Statistics 2010 at table 1.17. Organisations paid 717W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 718W

£5 million or more in 2009-10. I will write to the hon. Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does Member with additional information as soon as this is not hold this information and we could not estimate available. how many UK nationals could be eligible for compensation under schemes operated by foreign governments. Departmental Conferences UK nationals could have been employed in any number of roles in support of foreign governments’ nuclear Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for tests, and there would have been no requirement for the Defence what his Department’s annual budget for MOD to be aware of this. conferences was on (a) 7 May 2010 and (b) 7 December 2010. [29961] Harrier Aircraft

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence does not Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for have a discrete budget for conference expenditure. The Defence what advice informed his decision to end the hosting of, or attendance at, a conference is determined Harrier fleet of jets. [30606] by business need and all conference-related expenditure must be necessary, appropriate, cost-effective and an Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I admissible charge to public funds. gave on 24 November 2010, Official Report, columns The financial management measures notified to all 317-19W, to my hon. Friends the Members for New staff by the Permanent Under-Secretary and Chief of Forest East (Dr Lewis) and Portsmouth North (Penny Defence Staff in July 2010 will reduce expenditure on Mordaunt). conferences by constraining travel and limiting numbers attending meetings and events. Military Aircraft: Training Electronic Warfare Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what training his Department has provided for Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) fast jet, (b) helicopter and (c) multi-engine pilots Defence what funding his Department has allocated to overseas by (i) location, (ii) aircraft type, (iii) hours cyber security matters in each year from 2010-11 to flown and (iv) cost in each of the last five years. 2014-15; and to which (a) units in his Department and [29805] (b) programmes and projects such funding has been allocated. [29553] Nick Harvey: All initial flying training for UK fast jets, helicopters, and multi-engine pilots takes place Nick Harvey: £650 million has been agreed to fund within the UK. However, training does not cease after the National Cyber Programme across Government to pilots have completed their formal training but continues enhance our protection in cyber space. The Ministry of throughout their flying careers, because all operational Defence is in the process of completing its annual flying includes an element of training. Small numbers planning round which will allocate detailed programme of UK pilots are regularly posted on exchange tours budgets. This is expected to conclude in early 2011. overseas and this often involves conversion training to adapt to specific aircraft types. In addition, UK pilots Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure regularly take part in flying exercises overseas with international partners. However, the information requested Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for on location, aircraft type, hours flown and costs for Defence how many meetings (a) he, (b) his these activities outside of the UK is not held centrally predecessors and (c) his officials have had with and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. representatives of the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association in the last three years. [28457] Military Bases: Wales

Mr Robathan: I understand that neither my right Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence, nor his Defence when he expects to announce his proposals for predecessors, have met with representatives of the British the future of Ministry of Defence establishments in Nuclear Test Veterans Association (BNTVA) in the last Wales. [27006] three years. However, I can confirm that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), when he was a Defence Nick Harvey: Following the Strategic Defence and Minister, met with the Association twice, and Defence Security Review, final decisions on the future of defence officials have met with them on at least three occasions. establishments across the UK will be made as quickly as The Ministry of Defence officials and BNTVAmembers possible. We plan to be as open as we can be. These have also been present at a number of meetings and decisions will require detailed investment appraisals conferences dealing with a variety of veterans’ related and wider impact assessments. They will primarily focus issues. on the military capability we require but will be sensitive to economic and social impacts and the needs of our Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for personnel and their families. Defence what information his Department holds on the Further to my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of number of (a) British citizens and (b) dependants of State’s announcement on 19 October 2010, no further British citizens compensated under nuclear test veteran decisions have been taken in respect of the future of compensation schemes operated by foreign St Athan as a result of the Defence Technical Training governments; and if he will estimate how many such Change Programme. This will build on the Defence persons would be eligible for compensation under the Training Rationalisation (DTR) project for which the arrangements operated by his Department. [29015] PFI procurement was cancelled on 19 October 2010. 719W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 720W

Nuclear Weapons: Testing The job titles of designated winter leads in each strategic health authority are provided as follows: Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what documents relating to nuclear tests in SHA Job title 1957 and 1958 his Department holds but has not West Midlands Director of Performance and Provider published. [26900] Development NHS South West Director of Finance and Performance Mr Robathan [holding answer 2 December 2010]: In accordance with the Public Records Acts, the Ministry North East (joint) Strategic Head of Performance of Defence (MOD) withholds from release to the public Strategic Head of Emergency at the National Archives files that are over 30 years old, Preparedness and Resilience or extracts from them, if and for so long as their contents are judged to be sensitive. The MOD continues NHS North West Chief Nurse and Executive Director of to work closely with the War Pensions Tribunal with a Performance and Quality view to ensuring that all relevant documents relating to South Central Head of Performance the war pensions appeals are disclosed to the Tribunal. NHS London Head of Performance Improvement Special security arrangements have been agreed with East Midlands Director of Provider Development the Tribunal to ensure appropriate handling of any highly classified documents. South East Coast Director of Finance and Performance NHS Yorkshire and Deputy Director of Performance RAF Lossiemouth: Tornado Aircraft the Humber East of England Director of Commissioning, Performance and QIPP Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many passes have taken place at (a) RAF Dementia: Health Services Holbeach, (b) RAF Tain and (c) the Cape Wrath Range by Tornado GR4s taking off from RAF Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Lossiemouth in each year since 2004. [29806] Health what progress has been made on steps to Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I improve the care of dementia since the meeting of the gave on 16 November 2010, Official Report, columns Ministerial Task Force for Dementia in September 728-32W.Further information concerning the passes by 2010. [30893] Tornado GR4s from RAF Lossiemouth that have taken place at Defence Training Estate (DTE) Holbeach, Paul Burstow: The Ministerial Advisory Group on DTE Tain and DTE Cape Wrath is held in different Dementia Research is currently working via its subgroups formats by each of the ranges so can be provided only at on the key issues affecting dementia with the aim of disproportionate cost. suggesting practical ways to improve the volume, quality and impact of dementia research. The sub groups will report back on their progress to the final meeting of the ministerial group in March 2011. As reported in the HEALTH Department’s November Structural Reform Plan Monthly Implementation Update available at: Ambulance Services: Standards www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ documents/digitalasset/dh_122326.pdf Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Most recently, at the end of September we published Health pursuant to the letter of 23 September 2010 a new dementia outcomes focused Implementation Plan. from his Department’s Director of Performance to the This set out the Department’s priority objectives for Chief Executive of each strategic health authority, improving the care of those with dementia including a what information his Department has received from focus on early diagnosis and intervention for all, improved each strategic health authority in respect of (a) patient quality of care in general hospitals, living well with handover between ambulance and acute services and dementia in care homes and reducing the use of (b) service operation issues in each NHS trust; if he antipsychotic medication to treat people with dementia. will place in the Library a copy of each such report In support of the Implementation Plan a National received by his Department; and what the job title is of Dementia Declaration was jointly launched in October the designated Winter Lead in each strategic health by the Government and the Alzheimer’s Society. This authority. [30904] brings together a range of bodies, each setting out what they plan to do to support the implementation of the Mr Simon Burns: Information about patient handover strategy. With respect to research, for example, the between ambulance and acute services is published at: Alzheimer’s Research Trust is launching a new strategy www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ to increase their research spending and is supporting Performancedataandstatistics/WeeklySituationReports/ 37 new projects including pioneering work on diagnosis index.htm using brain scans, further research on unravelling the Information on service operation issues in each national genetics of the disease, and research in the biomarkers health service trust is management information which which play a crucial role in diagnosis and understanding allows the local NHS and the Department to gauge disease progression. They will also be undertaking a individual health economy operational problems. The project working with scientists to better understand Department is currently reviewing publication of this research capacity in the field looking at encouraging information. more people into this area. 721W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 722W

The Department is developing a commissioning pack In 2009 0.5% of F1 doctors did not complete their F1 to provide guidance for primary care trusts and local year and 0.9% did not complete their F2 year. In 2010, authorities on how best to commission dementia services. 0.5% of F1 doctors did not complete their F1 year and 0.75% did not complete their F2 year. Departmental Conferences Drinking Water Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his Department’s annual budget for conferences was at (a) 7 May 2010 and (b) Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 7 December 2010. [30030] Health how many public drinking water fountains were installed in each year since 2005. [30439] Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold this level of detailed information. However, the Chief Secretary Anne Milton: The Department is not responsible for to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) announced a package the installation of public drinking water fountains and of departmental measures in May that are designed to does not hold data on the topic. deliver efficiency savings of some £6 billion (across Government) in the current financial year. These measures Drugs: Prisons include a freeze on communications, marketing and advertising, the definition of which includes expenditure on conferences. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost was of providing integrated drug In response to the introduction of these measures, the treatment systems to each (a) primary care trust and Department has implemented a range of controls, which (b) prison in (i) total and (ii) by prisoner in each of the includes the establishment of a ‘Communications Control last three financial years. [30188] Panel’ that scrutinises business cases from within the Department and its arm’s length bodies. Beyond delegated limits, Cabinet Office approval has to be sought. Paul Burstow: This information has been placed in the Library. Diabetes: Health Education Health Services: Bassetlaw and Doncaster Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much the NHS spent on diabetes prevention in John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health each of the last five years. [30363] on how many occasions he has received representations from non-executive directors of (a) Bassetlaw primary Paul Burstow: There are a range of factors which care trust, (b) Doncaster primary care trust and (c) contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes; some Doncaster and Bassetlaw Hospitals NHS Foundation of which are modifiable and appropriate interventions Trust on (i) changes to the (A) treatment and (B) can reduce the risk of, or delay the onset of, the disease. clinical outputs of his Department, (ii) the National However, as these interventions also reduce the risk of Clinical Advisory Team, (iii) the strategic health other diseases, it is very difficult to disaggregate those authorities of each institution and (iv) other hospitals specifically aimed at diabetes prevention. in the last 12 months. [30514] This information is not collected centrally. Mr Simon Burns: The Department is not aware of Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health any representations from any of the non-executive directors how much the NHS spent on diabetes information of the organisations named on changes to the treatment leaflets in each of the last five years. [30450] and clinical outputs of this Department, the National Clinical Advisory Team, the strategic health authorities of Paul Burstow: It is generally the responsibility of each institution, or other hospitals in the last 12 months. primary care trusts and local providers of diabetes services to ensure that patients have information about their condition. At a national level, NHS Diabetes, the Health Services: Foreign Nationals national service improvement team, has produced five patient focused leaflets in the last three years at a total Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for cost of £6,848. Health how much expenditure the NHS recovered from This information is not collected centrally. overseas patients who received treatment in West Reading constituency under non-reciprocal agreements Doctors: Training in each of the last 10 years. [29998]

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The information is not available in the Health what proportion of foundation house officers format requested. Data are collected on income for have dropped out of courses (a) FHO1 and (b) FHO2 overseas patients under non-reciprocal agreements in in each year since 2005. [29782] the primary care trust (PCT) and national health service trust audited summarisation schedules. These data are Anne Milton: We do not have any information before provided in the following table for the organisations 2009. The UK Foundation Programme Office has collected that provide health care to the West Reading constituency. data on the proportion of foundation doctors who have However these bodies also provide health care to other dropped out of F1 or F2 for the last two years (2009 constituencies and the Department is unable to breakdown and 2010). the data by constituency. 723W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 724W

Income from overseas patients under non-reciprocal agreements, 2003-04 to 2009-10 £000 Organisation 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Newbury and Community PCT 0 0 0 Reading PCT 0 0 0 Wokingham PCT 0 0 0 Berkshire West PCT 0000 Royal Berkshire and Battle Hospitals NHS Trust 135 155 269 35 Total 135 155 269 35 0 0 0 Notes: 1. The Department does not collect data from NHS foundation trusts. The Royal Berkshire and Battle Hospitals NHS Trust obtained foundation trust status on 1 June 2006, the data provided for 2006-07 are only for the part of the year the organisation operated as an NHS trust. 2. In 2006-07 Newbury and Community PCT, Reading PCT and Wokingham PCT merged to form the new Berkshire West PCT. 3. In common with many other public and private sector organisations the Department only holds accounting data at organisation level for seven years, and therefore data are only available for the financial years 2003-04 to 2009-10. Source: Audited Summarisation Schedules 2003-04 to 2009-10

HIV Infection Hospitals: Consultants

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health if he will take steps to reduce the level of what mechanisms are in place to ensure that hospital undiagnosed HIV. [30480] consultants have adequate protected time for Anne Milton: On 1 December, the Health Protection supporting professional activities; and if he will make a Agency published an interim report “Time to test for statement. [30744] HIV: Expanded healthcare and community HIV testing in England” on their review of these pilots. A copy of Mr Simon Burns: The precise number and ratio of the report has been placed in the Library. Findings supporting professional activities in each consultant job show that expanding HIV testing in hospital/general plan are a matter for local determination, as part of the practitioner/community settings is feasible, and acceptable consultant job planning process. Job planning is based to patients and staff. These findings from these pilots on a partnership approach. The job plan will be reviewed will add to our evidence base on increasing HIV testing annually and the review will examine all aspects of the especially in high prevalence areas. A full report will be job plan including any possible changes to duties or produced early next year. responsibilities. The annual job plan review may result The Department has also funded the Medical Foundation in a revised prospective job plan. An interim review of for AIDS and Sexual Health to produce the training the job plan may also be conducted where duties, resource for non-specialist staff, “Tackling HIV Testing— responsibilities, accountability arrangements or objectives increasing detection and diagnosis”. have changed or need to change significantly within the year. HIV Infection: Tuberculosis The consultants’’ contract ensures that senior doctors’ time is used in the best interests of patients, by providing Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for flexibility in job planning agreements between individual Health (1) what proportion of tuberculosis patients are doctors and trusts. The contract fully recognises the also infected with HIV; [30113] value of wider work in the interests of the national (2) whether his Department is taking steps to health service. encourage testing for HIV of patients diagnosed with tuberculosis. [30122] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: Data from 2008, the most recent available, what recent estimate he has made of the average indicate that 7.1% of patients with tuberculosis (TB) protected time per week a hospital consultant has for aged 15 years and over in England, Wales and Northern Supporting Professional Activities in each NHS trust. Ireland are co-infected with HIV. [30905] The Department supported development of the following Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not made any guidance that recommends shared case management recent estimate of the number of Supporting Professional between TB and HIV professions, including testing, as Activities in hospital consultants’ job plans. follows: Clinical Diagnosis and Management of Tuberculosis, and The consultants’ contract ensures that senior doctors’ Measures for its Prevention and Control (National Institute for time is used in the best interests of patients, by providing Clinical Excellence (NICE), 2006); flexibility in job planning agreements between individual Tuberculosis Prevention and Treatment: a Toolkit for Planning, doctors and trusts. Job plans are agreed in partnership Commissioning and Delivering High-Quality Services in England between individual consultants and their employers, (DH, 2007); and should be consistent with organisational objectives Recommended Standards for NHS HIV Services (2003); and patient and service needs. HIV in Primary Care (2004); and The breakdown between direct clinical care activities, HIV for non-HIV Specialists (2008). supporting professional activities and other duties in These documents have already been placed in the each consultant’s job plan is a matter for local determination Library. as part of the consultant job planning process. 725W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 726W

Injuries: Offensive Weapons Currently, the numbers of people travelling overseas for treatment are low. We know, for example, that less Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health than 1,000 people travel each year under the arrangements what progress has been made by the Information enshrined in article 22 of Regulation (EEC) 1408/71—i.e. Sharing Implementation Group on the sharing of the S2 (formally E112 route). non-confidential information on firearm and knife Decisions relating to the application of fundamental injuries between hospitals and police forces. [30104] rights under article 56 are made locally by national health service commissioners. Accordingly, there is currently Anne Milton: As of March 2010 there were 198 no central data collection as to how many patients are hospitals with Type 1 Emergency Departments in England requesting treatment via this route, whether the request which could support violence reduction through non- is approved or refused (and on what grounds), what confidential information sharing. We estimate that in treatment is being requested or how much it costs. March 2010 there were 108 hospitals collecting and However, primary legislation has been introduced in sharing violent assault data in some format. Of these, relation to EUROSTAT, the European Union (EU) we understand that 52 were collecting the minimum organisation which collects and analyses data on a data and sharing it at least once per month. At this time range of issues across the EU), this requires all member 90 hospitals were not sharing data at all as of March states to collect data on cross-border health care under 2010. article 56. Currently, we are awaiting the development The Implementation Group has analysed the challenge of secondary legislation by the Commission before the of delivering the coalition commitment and agreed a United Kingdom (UK) can consider how to transpose programme of work to support delivery. One of the first these requirements. actions of this programme was to delivering additional Additionally, a European directive on patients’ rights funding of £743,000 to various projects throughout the in cross-border health care is currently the subject of national health service in November 2010. The group negotiations in Europe. The intention behind the directive will also oversee the establishment of a regular progress is to clarify and codify patients’ rights in this area, update on the number of hospitals collecting and sharing within a single legal instrument. Depending on the information—to commence early in 2011. The group progress of negotiations, a directive may be adopted in will also be investigating the impact of information spring 2011. We intend looking at article 56 data collection sharing on violence in England. requirements as part of the work to transpose the directive into UK law and NHS systems. Malnutrition Mental Health Services: Young People Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate has been made of the cost to the Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS of malnutrition in the last five years. [28345] Health (1) how many people made the transition from child and adolescent mental health services to adult Anne Milton: The Department has made no assessment mental health services at the age of (a) 16 and (b) 18 of the cost of malnutrition to the national health service. in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10; [29201] The National Institute of Clinical Excellence published (2) how many people aged 18 years and in receipt of guidelines on malnutrition in 2006, that recommended support from child and adolescent mental health all hospital patients, on admission and all out-patients services did not make the transition to adult mental at their first clinic appointment, should be screened health services in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [29202] (weighed, measured, and have Body Mass Index (BMI) calculated). Also, nutrition support should be considered Paul Burstow: The transition from child and adolescent in people who are malnourished. mental health services (CAMHS) to adult services is a The guidelines also state that all acute hospital trusts critical point for young people with complex mental should employ at least one specialist nutrition support health needs. The Government are developing support nurse and establish a nutrition steering committee, while to help young people’s and adult services improve these all health care professionals directly involved in patient transitions to ensure that both the processes and the care should be educated and trained on the importance models of care meet the needs of young people and of providing adequate nutrition. their families. Information on the amount of malnutrition based In response to the final report of the independent hospital admissions over the last five years has been CAMHS review published in November 2008, which placed in the Library. was critical of transitional arrangements, a number of pieces of work on the transition between children’s and Medical Treatments Abroad: Finance adult mental health care have been set-up. The Social Care Institute for Excellence, the National CAMHS Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for Support Service and National Mental Health Development Health how many applications were made for funding Unit are collaborating to produce a series of resources for treatment abroad under Article 49 (now article 56 to support practitioners and commissioners to provide of the Lisbon Treaty) in the last 12 months; and how better care for adolescents and young adults. many such applications resulted in reimbursement. Additionally the new commissioning arrangements [29984] proposed by the Government provide an opportunity to improve the commissioning of the full range of emotional Anne Milton: This information is not collected by the wellbeing and mental health services, including transition Department. from CAMHS to adult mental health services. 727W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 728W

The Government announced in September that a of organ donation in Wales. Officials from the Wales new mental health strategy is being produced. The Office and the Welsh Assembly Government are working Government intends a wholesale shift in emphasis that closely with the Department as these proposals are puts mental health outcomes alongside physical health considered. indicators in assessments of the quality of the national Government Ministers will comment as the process health service. The strategy will take a cross-Government develops. This will include estimating the effects on the and life course approach focussing on outcomes that numbers of organs available for donation in Wales and are meaningful to patients and their families. The strategy for the United Kingdom as a whole. Should the LCO be is due to be published in the new year. agreed by Parliament and a presumed consent system This information is not collected centrally. subsequently introduced in Wales, Ministers will wish to monitor progress to assess its effectiveness. Mental Illness: Employment Tribunals Service Prescriptions: Fees and Charges Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the merits of Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Health extending the application cut-off date for mental health what estimate he has made of the cost to the public patients pursuing industrial tribunals. [27607] purse of exemptions from prescription charges for each class of condition and illness in the most recent year Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. for which figures are available; and if he will make a We have not considered extending the time limits in statement. [30039] this area. Employment tribunals already have discretion to accept an out of time application depending on the Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold reason for the delay. In some jurisdictions, employment information about which medical condition or illness a tribunals may consider claims made out of time where patient claimed exemption under in relation to a particular it was not reasonably practicable for a claim to have prescription item. Therefore, it is not possible to provide been submitted within the time limit. In others, late an estimate of the cost to the public purse of exemptions claims may be considered where it is just and equitable from prescription charges for each class of condition or to do so. Responses to a public consultation in 2007 on illness. time limits for making employment tribunal claims did not evidence any significant problems. Primary Care Trusts and NDPBs NHS: Recruitment Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has for the use of savings to the public what rules are in place in relation to NHS purse arising from the abolition of (a) primary care appointments in respect of which those responsible for trusts and (b) non-departmental public bodies filling non-executive posts are (a) colleagues of and sponsored by his Department. [30360] (b) have personal links with those seeking appointment. [30887] Mr Simon Burns: The spending review announced that the costs of administration across the health system Mr Simon Burns: All candidates for national health will be reduced by one third in real terms by 2014-15, service public appointments are interviewed by a selection delivering a recurrent annual saving of £1.9 billion. This panel which includes an independent public appointments includes savings from significantly reducing the number assessor, who provides independent scrutiny of the selection and cost of our non-departmental public bodies and process. from reforming and reducing the costs of administration in the national health service, including through the The Commissioner for Public Appointment’s code of proposed abolition of primary care trusts and strategic practice contains rules around how potential conflicts health authorities. of interest between those involved in the selection process and candidates should be handled. These savings, along with all other efficiency savings, will be re-invested in services for patients. It will be the Organs: Donors responsibility of local commissioners to determine, within their overall budgets, how best these savings can be Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health invested in order to meet the needs of, and improve (1) if he will make an estimate of the effects on the outcomes for, their local populations. number of organs available for donation annually of a scheme comparable to the organ donation system Social Services: Finance proposed by the Welsh Assembly Government; [30859] (2) if he will undertake an assessment for Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for benchmarking purposes of the effectiveness of the Health what mechanisms his Department plans to use organ donation system proposed by the Welsh to ensure that funding for social care allocated as part Assembly Government following its introduction. of the comprehensive spending review is spent for that [30860] purpose by local authorities. [30894]

Anne Milton: The Welsh Assembly Government has Paul Burstow: The funding allocated for social care proposed in its legislative programme a Legislative comes in three strands: the local government formula Competence Order (LCO) to introduce an opt-out system grant, grant funding from the Department to local 729W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 730W authorities, and funding provided from within the national Average length of stay in days for patients undergoing a main elective procedure or intervention by primary care trust (PCT) of responsibility from 2006-07 to health service to support social care services that also 2009-10: Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS benefit health. commissioned activity in the independent sector Money that goes to local authorities through formula PCT Name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 grant forms the majority of social care allocations. This South Gloucestershire 3.9 3.7 3.8 3.3 is unhypothecated, in order to give local authorities the PCT freedom to respond to local needs and priorities. Havering PCT 3.9 2.5 3.6 3.8 Alongside formula grant, this spending review announced Kingston PCT 5.5 5.4 4.5 3.9 an additional £2 billion by 2014-15 for social care. Of Bromley PCT 3.9 4.0 3.5 3.4 Greenwich Teaching 3.6 3.5 3.7 3.7 this £2 billion: PCT Additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by Barnet PCT 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.8 2014-15, will be made available for social care. This North East 3.2 n/a n/a n/a funding will be allocated in addition to the Department’s Lincolnshire PCT existing social care grants, which will rise in line with Hillingdon PCT 3.7 3.6 3.5 3.4 inflation. Total grant funding from the Department for Enfield PCT 3.4 3.7 3.5 3.3 social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. The Barking and 4.1 3.0 3.4 3.6 Department has taken the decision to roll the additional Dagenham PCT City and Hackney 3.4 3.4 4.6 5.2 £1 billion into formula grant supporting the localism Teaching PCT agenda, so local authorities have the ability to spend Tower Hamlets PCT 3.6 3.7 3.8 3.8 money on local needs. This additional money will only Newham PCT 3.5 3.6 3.8 4.6 go to local authorities responsible for social care. Haringey Teaching 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.6 Funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will be PCT Blackburn With 2.8 3.0 3.0 2.7 provided from within the NHS to support social care Darwen PCT services which benefit health. The allocation of funding Herefordshire PCT 3.6 3.6 3.8 4.0 from the NHS will be outlined in the NHS operating Milton Keynes PCT 2.6 2.6 3.4 3.2 framework, due to be released on 15 December 2010. Newcastle PCT 3.5 3.4 3.1 3.1 This money is split in two. North Tyneside PCT 3.7 3.5 3.5 3.7 Next year £150 million will be allocated to primary Hartlepool PCT 3.3 3.2 3.1 2.8 care trusts (PCTs) to commission re-ablement services North Tees PCT 3.3 3.2 3.1 3.1 and £648 million will be transferred via an agreement North Lincolnshire 3.2 3.3 3.3 3.3 under section 256 of the 2006 NHS act to spend on PCT social care services that also benefit health. PCTs will Nottingham City PCT 3.3 3.0 3.1 2.8 work with local authorities to jointly agree spend of the Bassetlaw PCT 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.3 £648 million on services based on the local joint strategic Plymouth Teaching 3.4 3.2 3.5 3.5 needs assessment. PCT Salford PCT 3.6 3.5 4.0 3.1 Stockport PCT 3.3 3.3 3.2 3.1 Portsmouth City 3.2 3.8 3.6 3.9 Surgery Teaching PCT Bath and North East 4.4 4.1 4.4 3.8 Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for Somerset PCT Health how many (a) elective and (b) non-elective Luton PCT 2.9 3.0 2.9 3.2 Hammersmith and 2.8 3.2 3.1 3.1 surgical episodes were carried out in each primary care Fulham PCT [29977] trust area in each year since 2006. Rotherham PCT 3.4 3.2 3.4 3.2 Ashton, Leigh and 3.5 3.4 3.2 3.4 Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Information Centre collects Wigan PCT Hospital Episode Statistics data which show the numbers Blackpool PCT 3.4 3.1 3.5 3.7 of elective and non-elective finished admission episodes Bolton PCT 3.3 3.5 3.4 3.6 that had a main operative procedure or intervention. Ealing PCT 3.5 3.7 3.6 3.4 These data, for each primary care trust since 2006, Hounslow PCT 3.6 3.5 3.6 3.5 have been placed in the Library. Warrington PCT 3.6 3.6 3.4 3.3 Knowsley PCT 3.6 3.6 3.5 3.5 Oldham PCT 3.8 3.6 3.3 3.4 Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for Calderdale PCT 3.4 3.3 3.0 3.0 Health what the average length of stay was for patients Darlington PCT 3.5 3.7 3.5 3.4 undergoing an elective surgical procedure in each Barnsley PCT 3.2 3.4 3.7 3.5 primary care trust area in each year since 2006. [29978] Bury PCT 3.6 3.4 3.5 3.4 Swindon PCT 3.6 3.3 3.3 3.4 Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Information Centre collects Brent Teaching PCT 3.3 3.5 3.5 3.2 Hospital Episode Statistics data which show the numbers Harrow PCT 3.5 3.6 3.5 3.3 of elective and non-elective finished admission episodes Camden PCT 3.9 4.1 3.9 3.8 that had a main operative procedure or intervention. Islington PCT 3.6 3.9 3.9 3.6 The average length of stay for patients who have had Croydon PCT 4.2 3.9 4.0 4.1 a main operative procedure or intervention is shown in Gateshead PCT 3.4 3.2 3.3 3.3 the following table. South Tyneside PCT 3.4 3.3 3.4 3.3 731W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 732W

Average length of stay in days for patients undergoing a main elective procedure Average length of stay in days for patients undergoing a main elective procedure or intervention by primary care trust (PCT) of responsibility from 2006-07 to or intervention by primary care trust (PCT) of responsibility from 2006-07 to 2009-10: Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS 2009-10: Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector commissioned activity in the independent sector PCT Name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 PCT Name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Sunderland Teaching 3.3 2.9 2.9 2.9 North Yorkshire and 3.4 3.4 3.5 3.4 PCT York PCT Middlesbrough PCT 4.0 3.4 3.3 3.1 East Riding of 3.3 3.4 3.6 3.5 Southampton City 3.5 3.3 3.7 4.3 Yorkshire PCT PCT Hull Teaching PCT 3.2 3.2 3.1 3.4 Medway PCT 4.1 3.5 3.5 3.5 Bradford And Airedale 3.3 3.2 3.1 3.1 Kensington And 3.3 3.5 3.3 3.6 Teaching PCT Chelsea PCT South East Essex PCT 4.2 4.0 3.9 3.6 Westminster PCT 3.8 3.6 3.5 3.8 Bedfordshire PCT 3.6 3.5 3.4 3.3 Lambeth PCT 4.0 3.8 3.9 4.1 East and North 3.7 3.8 3.1 3.5 Southwark PCT 4.0 4.1 3.9 3.8 Hertfordshire PCT Lewisham PCT 3.9 4.3 4.9 4.1 West Hertfordshire 3.4 3.5 3.3 3.3 PCT Wandsworth PCT 4.6 4.4 4.3 4.7 Surrey PCT 4.1 3.8 3.5 3.4 Tameside and Glossop 3.8 3.8 3.3 3.4 PCT West Sussex PCT 3.2 3.2 3.2 3.4 Brighton and Hove 2.6 2.6 2.9 3.4 East Sussex Downs 3.5 3.4 3.4 3.5 City PCT And Weald PCT South Birmingham 4.2 4.0 3.7 3.5 Hastings And Rother 3.6 3.7 3.8 3.9 PCT PCT Shropshire County 3.8 4.1 4.4 4.1 West Kent PCT 3.4 2.8 3.2 3.4 PCT Leicestershire County 4.0 3.6 3.7 3.7 Walsall Teaching PCT 4.4 4.1 4.0 4.0 And Rutland PCT Richmond And 5.4 5.1 5.4 4.9 Leicester City PCT 3.8 3.5 3.6 3.4 Twickenham PCT Northamptonshire 3.8 3.9 3.5 3.5 Sutton And Merton 3.9 3.6 3.6 3.8 Teaching PCT PCT Dudley PCT 4.2 4.7 4.2 3.6 North Somerset PCT 3.7 4.2 3.9 3.5 Sandwell PCT 4.3 3.8 3.6 3.5 Coventry Teaching 3.5 3.4 3.4 3.5 Birmingham East And 4.3 3.9 3.8 3.8 PCT North PCT Telford And Wrekin 3.5 3.6 3.6 3.8 North Staffordshire 2.3 6.1 6.4 6.6 PCT PCT Wolverhampton City 4.0 4.0 3.6 3.7 Stoke On Trent PCT 2.1 6.3 6.9 7.1 PCT South Staffordshire 3.1 3.8 4.0 3.7 Heart of Birmingham 3.9 3.7 3.5 3.4 PCT Teaching PCT Worcestershire PCT 3.8 3.8 3.7 3.6 Leeds PCT 3.9 4.0 3.6 3.5 Warwickshire PCT 3.5 3.4 3.3 3.4 Kirklees PCT 3.5 3.5 3.3 3.3 Peterborough PCT 3.4 3.1 2.8 2.7 Wakefield District PCT 3.4 3.2 3.1 3.0 Cambridgeshire PCT 3.4 3.4 3.3 3.2 Sheffield PCT 3.7 3.7 3.4 3.4 Norfolk PCT 3.6 3.4 3.0 2.9 Doncaster PCT 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.5 Great Yarmouth and 3.9 3.8 3.3 3.2 Derbyshire County 3.9 3.8 3.6 3.6 Waveney PCT PCT Suffolk PCT 3.6 3.4 3.4 3.2 Derby City PCT 3.4 3.3 3.1 3.5 West Essex PCT 4.6 4.2 3.8 3.8 Nottinghamshire 3.7 3.3 3.4 3.3 North East Essex PCT 4.1 3.4 3.4 3.3 County Teaching PCT Mid Essex PCT 3.4 3.1 3.2 3.0 Lincolnshire Teaching 3.2 3.3 3.4 3.4 PCT South West Essex PCT 4.4 4.3 4.8 4.7 Redbridge PCT 4.3 3.3 3.6 3.7 Eastern and Coastal 3.5 3.4 3.3 3.3 Kent PCT Waltham Forest PCT 4.1 3.7 3.8 4.0 Hampshire PCT 3.7 3.5 3.6 3.7 County Durham PCT 3.6 3.4 3.5 3.4 Buckinghamshire PCT 3.5 3.3 3.6 3.9 Cumbria PCT 3.5 3.6 3.6 3.8 Oxfordshire PCT 3.3 3.3 3.4 3.5 North Lancashire PCT 3.6 3.2 3.6 4.1 Berkshire West PCT 3.8 3.8 3.7 3.6 Central Lancashire 3.6 3.4 3.3 3.6 PCT Berkshire East PCT 3.3 3.0 3.6 3.5 East Lancashire 3.5 3.4 3.2 3.1 Gloucestershire PCT 3.9 4.1 4.0 3.7 Teaching PCT Bristol PCT 3.9 3.8 3.6 3.4 Sefton PCT 3.7 3.5 3.5 3.4 Wiltshire PCT 4.9 4.6 4.1 3.6 Wirral PCT 5.8 4.8 5.2 5.6 Somerset PCT 3.8 3.7 3.4 3.3 Liverpool PCT 3.8 3.9 3.7 3.9 Dorset PCT 3.6 3.6 3.3 3.3 Halton and St Helens 3.7 3.6 3.8 3.6 Bournemouth and 3.6 3.8 3.2 3.4 PCT Poole PCT Western Cheshire PCT 3.7 3.6 3.4 3.3 Cornwall and Isles Of 3.1 3.4 3.6 3.4 Central And Eastern 2.5 3.8 3.7 3.5 Scilly PCT Cheshire PCT Devon PCT 3.6 3.6 3.6 3.5 Heywood, Middleton 4.0 3.6 3.3 3.3 Redcar and Cleveland 3.7 3.7 3.4 3.3 And Rochdale PCT PCT Trafford PCT 3.4 3.4 3.4 3.4 Isle of Wight NHS 3.9 4.2 3.8 3.7 Manchester PCT 3.5 3.2 3.3 3.3 PCT 733W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 734W

Average length of stay in days for patients undergoing a main elective procedure Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for or intervention by primary care trust (PCT) of responsibility from 2006-07 to 2009-10: Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS Education how much his Department spent on (a) commissioned activity in the independent sector children in care and (b) litigation in connection with PCT Name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 such children in each year since 2007. [27979]

Northumberland Care 4.0 3.9 3.5 3.4 Trust Tim Loughton: Most expenditure in support of looked Bexley Care Trust 4.0 3.6 3.3 3.5 after children (including children in care) is through Torbay Care Trust 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.2 local authorities. In 2007-08 local authority net expenditure Solihull Care Trust 4.0 3.7 3.8 3.7 recorded by them under the heading of children looked North East n/a 3.0 3.1 3.5 after amounted to £2,181 million, and in 2008-09 the Lincolnshire Care Trust figure was £2,453 million. Data for 2009-10 will be Plus available in early 2011. These figures do not include Not Applicable 5.3 5.5 5.5 5.6 other expenditure which contributes to supporting looked Unknown 4.3 4.2 4.2 6.4 after children, such as expenditure on social worker n/a = not available. Note: salaries, on undertaking assessments of need or on PCT of responsibility is identified by establishing the postcode of the patient’s delivering wider services such as school and leisure general practitioner practice. ″not applicable″ is where the postcode cannot be services. Over the last three financial years the Department derived; ″unknown″ is where the postcode has not been recorded. Source: itself has directly spent some £65 million in support of Hospital episode statistics (HES), the NHS information centre for health and looked after children through the Care Matters programme social care. budget; other departmental spending programmes have also contributed to improving outcomes for these children. EDUCATION The cost to the Department since September 2008 of litigation in connection with looked after children, including Children in Care in relation to care leavers and adoption, is in the region John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for of £60,000. The cost of local authorities of litigation in Education how many children subject to a care order, respect of looked after children is not collected centrally. police protection order or emergency protection order left care in England in each year from 1989 to 2005. Departmental Communication [25207] Tim Loughton: The number of children who were Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for subject to a care order, police protection order, or Education (1) pursuant to the answer to the hon. emergency protection order that left care between 1993 Member for Dundee East of 11 October 2010, Official and 2005 is shown in the following table. Information Report, columns 12-13W, if he will place in the Library for the year ending 31 March 1992 is affected by the a copy of the guidance issued to staff of his introduction of the Children Act on 14 October 1991 Department on the performance of the Parliamentary when a new system of legal statuses was introduced and Under-Secretary of State for Children and Families in so it is not possible to extract a full year’s worth of data. respect of (a) preparation of briefing, (b) preparation Information prior to 1992 is not available. of speeches, (c) preparation of replies to official (d) Children subject to a care order, police protection order or emergency protection correspondence, organisation of appointments and order who ceased to be looked after during the year ending 31 March1,2,3,4 (e) conduct of meetings; and if he will make a Years ending 31 March 1993 to 2005 statement; [28081] Number of children (2) whether the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of 19935 8,300 State for Children and Families has provided guidance 19945 7,700 to his officials on the preparation of (a) preparation of 19955 7,100 (i) briefings, (ii) speeches and (iii) papers, (b) conduct 19965 6,500 of his meetings and (c) organisation of his diary; and 19975 6,200 if he will make a statement. [29328] 19986 6,700 19996 6,600 Tim Loughton [holding answer 2 and 7 December 20006 6,800 2010]: The information requested has been placed in 20016 7,200 the Library. 20026 7,900 20036 8,000 Departmental Communications 20045 8,900 5 2005 8,600 Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100 if they exceed 1,000, and to the nearest 10, otherwise. Education whether (a) the Parliamentary Under- 2 Only the last occasion on which a child ceased to be looked after in the year Secretary of State for Children and Families and (b) has been counted. officials of his Department have had (i) meetings, (ii) 3 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of short term placements. discussions and (iii) correspondence with 4 Historical data may differ from older publications. This is mainly due to the representatives of Classwatch since his appointment; implementation of amendments and corrections sent by some local authorities and if he will make a statement. [29329] after the publication date of previous materials 5 Figures are taken from the SSDA903 return which covered all children looked after. Tim Loughton [holding answer 7 December 2010]: I 6 Figures are derived from the SSDA903 one third sample survey. Source: have had no meetings, discussions or correspondence SSDA903 with representatives of Classwatch since my appointment. 735W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 736W

I met the directors once in a personal capacity, soon consortia, publicises tender documents on the Business after my appointment, as part of a leaving party. I also Link website and supports new businesses through flexibility received financial information for the purpose of making on qualifying documentation, eg financial accounts. my tax return. Departmental Early Retirement I have sent the CEO a Christmas card. I am not aware that any official in the Department Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for has had meetings, discussions or correspondence with Education how many staff of (a) his Department and Classwatch during this period. (b) its agencies have been offered enhanced early retirement packages in each of the last three years. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for [22023] Education whether (a) the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State for Children and Families and (b) Tim Loughton: Under the Civil Service Compensation officials of his Department have had (i) meetings, (ii) scheme the Department can offer early retirement packages discussions and (iii) correspondence with in circumstances prescribed by the Civil Service representatives of RM since his appointment; and if he Management Code. Information on the number of will make a statement. [29330] departmental staff who received approved early release package for the last three full financial years is set out in Tim Loughton [holding answer 7 December 2010]: I the following table: can confirm that neither my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nor I have held any meetings or Flexible and discussions, and have not exchanged any correspondence compulsory early Approved early with Research Machines (RM). However, officials within retirement retirement this Department have met with RM on numerous occasions 2007-08 55 3 since May 2010 and have sent RM one letter during that 2008-09 37 1 time. 2009-10 94 7 Departmental officials leading on OPEN—The Marketplace for Schools: The Department has no agencies. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/open Departmental Training have met with RM to take forward the integration of Research Machines with the OPEN suite of products. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Meetings between RM and this Department have been Education how many external training courses were regular weekly project meetings to look closely at timescales attended by staff of his Department in the last 12 and the project milestones. 16 meetings have taken place months; and what the cost to the public purse was of since May 2010. each such course. [13278] One letter, dated 25 October 2010, was sent to RM to explain that continuance of the OPEN e-marketplace Tim Loughton: Information about how many external for schools is under review. training courses were attended by the Department’s staff and associated costs is not held centrally—funding Departmental Contracts for the majority of learning and development opportunities is held and managed by individual business areas. Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Consequently this information could be provided only Education what steps his Department plans to take to at disproportionate cost. encourage and support small and medium-sized enterprises and third sector organisations to compete Education Psychology for departmental contracts in line with value-for- money policy, UK regulations and EU procurement Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for directives. [28118] Education when he expects the freeze on the recruitment of trainee education psychologists to end. Tim Loughton: The Department will fully comply [29235] with the package of support to open up Government procurement to help small and medium-sized enterprises Sarah Teather [holding answer 7 December 2010]: I and third sector organisations recently announced by am very pleased to report that following our spending the Cabinet Office. review I have been able to secure the funding that will enable the 2011 training cohort to go ahead. You will This includes streamlining the procurement process appreciate that this is only a temporary solution because to remove unnecessary bureaucracy and waste, improving the current funding scheme is not sustainable. I am the transparency of public procurement opportunities determined to take advantage of the opportunity presented and ensuring the timely payment by contractors to by the Green Paper on SEN and disabilities to consider sub-contractors. options for placing the training of educational psychologists In addition to those measures the Department already; on a more secure footing. advertises all suitable contracts on the supply2gov website (a website aimed at SMEs), flags up any contract advert Family Law: Adoption placed in the Official Journal of the European Union if there may be sub-contracting opportunities for SMEs, Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for uses simplified contractual documentation, encourages Education what assessment he has made of variation in innovation through output based specifications, splitting the practice and implementation of adoption law requirements into smaller lots, encourages the use of across England and Wales. [23956] 737W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 738W

Tim Loughton: The latest national adoption figures placed for adoption and to improve the speed with show a disappointing fall in the number of children which decisions are made. I also intend to issue, in being adopted and also a significant variation in local January, revised statutory guidance on adoption. authorities’ performance, both in terms of the number of looked after children who are adopted and in the Institute for Fiscal Studies timeliness of placements. The ‘AdoptionResearch Initiative’ has also highlighted Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for variations in local practice, particularly in relation to Education pursuant to the answer of 30 November permanence planning and decision making, family finding 2010, Official Report, column 728W, on the Institute and matching, the provision of adoption support services, for Fiscal Studies (IFS), which contracts his the use of resources and the allocation of budgets. Department had with the IFS between 2002-03 and 2010-11; what the monetary value was of each such I want all local authorities to perform to the level of contract; and what tender process was undertaken in the best. That is why I have set up a Ministerial Advisory each case. [28826] Group on Adoption to provide expert advice on a range of practical proposals to remove barriers and reduce Tim Loughton: DfE contracts with the Institute for delays. Fiscal Studies (IFS) are research contracts and shown On 18 November I wrote to directors of children’s in the following table are details of contracts for the services and lead members to ask that they do everything period 2002 to 2011. All of these contracts were awarded possible to increase the number of children appropriately by competitive tender.

Monetary value of the Reference Project title Contract period Tender process contract (£)

2002027 Evaluation of pilots of paid time off for 2 April 2002—25 October 2002 Competitive 39,710.00 training-design stage. 2002084 Parental background and child outcomes: 1 October 2002—31 May 2005 Competitive 253,834.75 how much does money matter and what else matters? 2003087 Design study for research on the impact of 5 June 2003—7 July 2003 Competitive 16,550.00 level 2 learning and qualifications 2007107 Drivers and barriers to educational success, 6 March 2008—31 March 2009 Competitive 84,370.00 evidence from the longitudinal survey of young people in England 2009161 Centre for analysis of youth transitions 15 January 2010—31 March 2014 Competitive Up to 2,000,000.00 research centre 2008058 LSYPE-YCS-IFS framework agreement for 30 November 2008—30 April 2011 Competitive 10.00 analysis of longitudinal data sets 1 To date no work has been awarded to IFS under this framework agreement.

Members: Correspondence School Linking Network Programme

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent assessment he has made of the Education when he plans to reply to the letter from the effectiveness of the School Linking Network project; hon. Member for Torbay of 1 September 2010, on his and what plans he has to review the operation of that constituent Mrs Greenwood. [26116] project. [26483]

Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend the Minister of State Mr Gibb: In 2009 DfE commissioned NFER to conduct for Schools responded to the letter from the hon. Member an evaluation of the Schools Linking Network (SLN) on 7 December. programme. The evaluation involved in-depth case study visits with participating schools to collect evidence on the take up and delivery of the programme, taking into Overseas Students: Guardianship account the views of school leaders, teachers, and local authorities. The evaluation also includes a robust assessment Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for of the impact of the programme on pupils’ attitudes Education what consideration he has given to the and behaviour, using a quantitative survey of secondary merits of reviewing the safeguarding requirements for pupils to compare changes over time in the attitudes those providing education guardianship and host and behaviour of SLN participants against a comparable family services to overseas students. [27819] group of non-participants. A full report on the evaluation findings will be published in early 2011. No decision has Tim Loughton: There are no plans to review specifically yet been taken on whether to continue funding SLN in the current arrangements for those providing education future years. guardianship and host family services to overseas Schools: Religion students. The Government are, however, currently reviewing the criminal records and vetting and barring regime, John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for with the intention of scaling it back to common-sense Education what assessment he has made of the levels. effectiveness of his Department’s Interfaith School 739W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 740W

Linking Network Project; when he next plans to renew Teachers: Languages the Project’s performance; and if he will make a statement. [27545] Mr Gibb: In 2009 DfE commissioned NFER to conduct Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for an evaluation of the Schools Linking Network (SLN) Education what plans he has for the future of the programme. The evaluation involves in-depth case study British Council Language Teaching Assistant scheme. visits with participating schools to collect evidence on [30269] the take up and delivery of the programme, taking into account the views of school leaders, teachers, and local authorities. The evaluation also includes a robust Mr Gibb: The Language Assistants programme, which assessment of the impact of the programme on pupils’ is managed for the Department by the British Council, attitudes and behaviour. The evaluation covers school will continue. The programme supports departmental linking on the basis of racial, socio-economic, or faith and Government priorities by exposing pupils in our differences, and does not specifically focus on the interfaith schools to mother-tongue speakers of other languages aspect of the School Linking Network’s work. The through the intake of foreign language assistants; and Department currently has no plans to conduct a separate provides an opportunity for undergraduates from our evaluation of Interfaith School Linking. A full report universities to immerse themselves in a foreign language on the current evaluation findings will be published in while working as an English language assistant in a early 2011. school abroad.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 14 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 795 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Afghanistan ...... 806 continued Central Asia...... 805 Promoting Democracy (Internet)...... 795 Gulf Countries...... 796 Sri Lanka (Red Cross Operations) ...... 801 Korean Peninsula...... 803 Topical Questions ...... 808 NATO Summit (Lisbon) ...... 797 West Bank...... 800 North Atlantic Treaty ...... 798 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 14 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 87WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 94WS Telecoms Council...... 87WS Forensic Science...... 94WS

PRIME MINISTER ...... 96WS DEFENCE...... 90WS Draft Cabinet Manual...... 96WS Afghanistan Troop Levels: Spring 2011 Roulement ...... 90WS TRANSPORT ...... 96WS Crossrail...... 96WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 93WS TREASURY ...... 90WS Afghanistan: Monthly Progress Report...... 93WS Simple Financial Products (Consultation) ...... 90WS Tax Information Exchange (Liberia and Aruba).... 90WS HEALTH...... 94WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 97WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 94WS Affairs Council ...... 97WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 14 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 682W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 673W Apprentices...... 682W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 673W Business: Regulation ...... 684W Anti-Semitism...... 673W Departmental Lobbying...... 684W Community Land Trusts...... 674W Exports ...... 685W Councillors ...... 674W Further Education: Standards...... 686W Councillors: Business Interests...... 674W Further Education: Teachers...... 686W Departmental Energy...... 674W Higher Education: Finance ...... 686W Departmental Lobbying...... 675W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 687W Departmental Marketing ...... 675W Insolvency...... 687W Departmental Public Consultation...... 675W Insolvency: Fees and Charges ...... 689W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 676W Local Enterprise Agencies...... 689W EU Law...... 677W Nuclear Power Stations: Construction ...... 689W Fire Services...... 677W Overseas Students ...... 690W Government Offices for the Regions: Gallup ...... 678W Science: Females ...... 693W Homelessness: Rural Areas ...... 678W Sheffield Forgemasters ...... 694W Housing Market...... 679W Skylon Spaceplane ...... 694W Housing: Regeneration...... 679W Students: Fees and Charges...... 694W Local Government: Bank Services ...... 680W Students: Loans ...... 695W Local Government Finance ...... 679W Technology Strategy Board...... 695W Multiple Occupation: Licensing ...... 680W Trade: Developing Countries ...... 696W Supporting People Programme: Nottinghamshire.. 680W Unemployment: Brighton ...... 696W Travellers: Children ...... 681W Vocational Guidance...... 697W UN Food and Agricultural Organisation ...... 681W

DEFENCE...... 711W CABINET OFFICE...... 705W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 711W Business: Closures...... 705W Aircraft Carriers ...... 711W Iraq Committee of Inquiry: Public Appointments . 706W Armed Forces: Anti-Semitism...... 711W Unemployment: Rural Areas ...... 706W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 711W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH...... 719W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 712W Ambulance Services: Standards ...... 719W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 712W Dementia: Health Services ...... 720W Armed Forces: Young People...... 712W Departmental Conferences...... 721W Clyde Naval Base ...... 712W Diabetes: Health Education ...... 721W Defence: Procurement...... 714W Doctors: Training...... 721W Departmental Conferences...... 717W Drinking Water...... 722W Electronic Warfare ...... 717W Drugs: Prisons ...... 722W Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure...... 717W Health Services: Bassetlaw and Doncaster ...... 722W Harrier Aircraft ...... 718W Health Services: Foreign Nationals ...... 722W Military Aircraft: Training ...... 718W HIV Infection ...... 723W Military Bases: Wales...... 718W HIV Infection: Tuberculosis...... 723W Nuclear Weapons: Testing...... 719W Hospitals: Consultants...... 724W RAF Lossiemouth: Tornado Aircraft ...... 719W Injuries: Offensive Weapons ...... 725W Malnutrition ...... 725W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 710W Medical Treatments Abroad: Finance...... 725W House of Lords: Reform...... 710W Mental Health Services: Young People...... 726W Members...... 710W Mental Illness: Employment Tribunals Service ...... 727W Parliament ...... 710W NHS: Recruitment ...... 727W Organs: Donors ...... 727W EDUCATION...... 733W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 728W Children in Care...... 733W Primary Care Trusts and NDPBs...... 728W Departmental Communication ...... 734W Social Services: Finance ...... 728W Departmental Communications...... 734W Surgery...... 729W Departmental Contracts ...... 735W Departmental Early Retirement ...... 736W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 661W Departmental Training ...... 736W Animal Experiments: Primates...... 661W Education Psychology...... 736W Asylum ...... 661W Family Law: Adoption...... 736W Asylum: Deportation ...... 662W Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 738W Asylum: Finance...... 663W Members: Correspondence ...... 737W Asylum: Northern Ireland ...... 663W Overseas Students: Guardianship ...... 737W Asylum: Work Permits...... 663W School Linking Network Programme...... 738W Criminal Records ...... 663W Schools: Religion ...... 738W Criminal Records: Reading West...... 664W Teachers: Languages ...... 740W Deportation ...... 664W Deportation: Offenders...... 666W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 631W Detention Centres: Christmas...... 667W Electoral Register: Literacy...... 631W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 667W General Election 2010...... 632W Global Peace and Unity Conference ...... 668W Human Trafficking ...... 668W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 671W Immigration Controls: Higher Education ...... 668W Departmental Conferences...... 671W Immigration: South East...... 668W Departmental Publications ...... 671W Members: Correspondence ...... 669W Downstream Oil Industry Forum...... 671W National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit.. 669W Environment Protection: Employment...... 672W Offences against Children: International EU Emissions Trading Scheme ...... 672W Cooperation...... 669W Fuel Poverty: Walsall ...... 673W Police: Manpower ...... 669W Green Deal...... 673W Reoffenders: Dartford...... 670W UK Border Agency: Trafficking...... 670W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Visas: Students...... 670W AFFAIRS...... 704W Biodiversity...... 704W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 631W Common Land...... 704W Catering ...... 631W Catering: Private Sector ...... 631W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 635W Afghanistan ...... 636W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Departmental Air Travel ...... 637W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 632W Departmental Security ...... 638W Personnel ...... 632W Diplomatic Service: Email...... 638W Gaza Aid Flotilla ...... 637W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 652W International Cooperation: Climate Change ...... 639W Afghanistan: Agriculture ...... 652W Iran...... 635W Afghanistan: Farmers ...... 653W Judaism: Festivals and Special Occasions...... 639W Afghanistan: Food ...... 653W Korean Peninsula...... 635W Burundi: Agriculture...... 654W Lockerbie: Bombings ...... 639W Burundi: Comprehensive Africa Agriculture Middle East ...... 636W Development Programme ...... 655W Pakistan: Capital Punishment ...... 640W Burundi: Food ...... 655W Russian Federation: Fossil Fuels...... 636W Departmental Conferences...... 656W Sri Lanka ...... 640W Developing Countries: Civil Society...... 656W Sri Lanka: Human Rights...... 640W Developing Countries: Micro-level Insurance Yemen ...... 637W Services ...... 657W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Developing Countries: Money Laundering...... 657W Rolling Stock: Procurement ...... 645W Great Lakes: Agriculture...... 658W Waterloo Station ...... 645W India: Agriculture ...... 658W India: Climate Change ...... 659W TREASURY ...... 707W India: Food ...... 660W Departmental Travel ...... 707W Namibia: Food...... 660W Economic Policy: EU Action ...... 707W Swaziland: Maternity Services ...... 661W Employment ...... 707W EU Grants and Loans: Republic of Ireland ...... 708W JUSTICE...... 646W Football: South Africa ...... 709W Cemeteries ...... 646W Members: Correspondence ...... 709W Legal Costs ...... 646W Public Expenditure...... 709W Magistrates Courts: Sentencing...... 649W Students: Fees and Charges...... 710W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 649W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 710W Prisoners’ Transfers: Northern Ireland...... 649W Prisons: Mobile Phones...... 650W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 633W Prisons: Mother and Baby Units...... 650W Departmental Official Visits...... 633W Probation: Working Hours...... 651W Departmental Sponsorship ...... 633W Self-locking Snares...... 652W Departmental Travel ...... 634W Equality: Regulation ...... 634W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 633W EU Law...... 634W Departmental Conferences...... 633W Grants...... 634W

TRANSPORT ...... 640W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 697W Departmental Air Travel ...... 640W Central Call System: Complaints ...... 697W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 642W Child Benefit...... 698W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 641W Departmental Publications ...... 698W Departmental Railways...... 642W Disposable Income: Pay ...... 698W Driving Tests: Qualifications...... 642W Future Jobs Fund...... 700W Electric Vehicles: Local Government...... 643W Housing Benefit ...... 700W Network Rail ...... 643W Members: Correspondence ...... 702W Railway Stations: Greater London...... 643W Remploy: Manpower ...... 702W Railway Stations: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 644W Social Security Benefits: Overpayments ...... 702W Railways: Fares ...... 644W Universal Credit...... 703W Railways: Greater London ...... 645W Winter Fuel Payments: Reading West ...... 703W Road Signs and Markings: Tourism...... 645W Winter Fuel Payments: Taxation...... 704W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 21 December 2010

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 14 December 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 795] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Courts Service Estate [Col. 816] Statement—(Mr Djanogly)

RAF Bases [Col. 832] Application for emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24

Banking and Financial Services (Community Investment) [Col. 835] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Hazel Blears)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Superannuation Bill [Col. 837] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Mr. Dunne)—agreed to Lords amendments considered

Terrorist Asset-Freezing Bill etc. [Lords] Bill [Col. 858] Programme motion (No.2)—(Mr Hoban)—agreed to As amended, considered Read the Third time and passed

Identity Documents Bill [Col. 876] Lords amendmend considered

Corporate Governance in Financial Institutions and Remuneration Policies [Col. 876] Motion to take note of EC document—(Mr Vara)—on a Division, agreed to

Pension Funds [Col. 881] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Legal Aid [Col. 189WH] Intensive Dairy Farming [Col. 213WH] Early Years Education [Col. 236WH] Sentencing (Green Paper) [Col. 245WH] School Sports (Colchester) [Col. 255WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 87WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 631W] [see index inside back page]