977 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 978 me that I made the remark he com HOUSE OF COMMONS plained of. I am as sensitive to the rights of individuals-having had to represent them for a long period-as the hon. Monday, 17th May, 1965 Member is likely to be. The House met at half-past Sir Knox Cunningham : Will the right Two o'clock hon. Gentleman say since when it bas become unfitting for a Member of Parlia PRAYERS ment to approach the Crown in the matter of an employee through the [Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair] Minister who is responsible for the Crown as in this case? ORAL ANSWERS TO Mr. Pannell: I am sure that we should have a state of complete industrial QUESTIONS anarchy if people thought that was the first appeal rather than the last. I am PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS very anxious to keep all the channels Member of Parliament (Letter) open, but it would be very wrong to encourage the belief anywhere that I. Mr. Evelyn King asked the Minister people can, through their Member of of Public Building and Works why he Parliament, get something which they replied in his Ministerial capacity to the cannot get through a proper approach, hon. Member for South Dorset in a letter through the proper negotiating dated 20th January to the effect that machinery. representations regarding his condition of employment made by a South Dorset Mr. King: Is not it a fact that what constituent to his Member of Parliament ever the rights of trade unions, to which were not fitting. we give great sympathy, what the Minister wrote was: ' The Minister of Public Building and "It is not fitting that representations of this Works (Mr. Charles Pannell): I wrote kind"�- three times to the hon. Member and wished to make it clear that employees Mr. Speaker : Order. A verbatim quotation from a document is out of must not be encouraged to believe that they can obtain special concessions by order at Question Time. approaching their Member rather than Mr. King : May I give notice that l by using the normal negotiating shall endeavour to raise this matter on machinery available to all. the Adjournment? Mr. King: Is it not a fact that any aggrieved citizen has an historic and Historic Buildings traditional right to appeal to hon. Mem 2. Mr. Robert Cooke asked the Minis bers of this House? Is not any attempt ter of Public Building and Works to interfere, or tell a constituent it is whether he will take steps to produce not fitting for him to write to his Mem more effective protection to the amenities ber of Parliament, an example of mon and surroundings of historic buildings strous Ministerial arrogance which back officially listed as of merit and the sub benchers on all sides of the House will ject of expenditure by his Department. resent? The Parliamentary Secretary to the Mr. Pannell: I could not hope to Ministry of Public Building and Works match the arrogance of the statement we (Mr. James Boyden) : Planning control have just heard. I have never disputed over the amenities and surroundings of the right of an industrial employee to historic buildings, whether or not they approach his Member of Parliament, but are the subject of expenditure by this an aggrieved employee can take his case Department, is a matter for my right hon. to the management direct or through bis Friend the Minister of Housing and Local trade union. It was because these Government, whose Department recently methods were not exhausted in the case reminded local planning authorities of about which the hon. Member wrote to the need to take special care in dealing 17 MAY 1965 979 Oral Answers OraJ Answers 980 with proposals for development near Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister is historic buildings. not responsible for the choice of occupants. Mr. Cooke : Surely the Minister does care about what happens to the sur Mr. Shinwell: Even if a case could be roundings of places which his Ministry made out in certain circumstances for has to preserve? Is not be aware that this being continued, should not it put this is a great recommendation of the an end to all the silly talk about sub Gowers Report and the one which has sidising council houses? not been implemented? Will he please Mr. Pannell: Again I am not respon bear that in mind? sible for that. Generally speaking, there is accord between my right hon. Friend Mr. Boyden : The answer to the first and me, but there are many things to part of the supplementary question is. be put on the record. Although the work " Of course ". carried out is a charge on my Vote, the residents are asked to pay for any special Grace and Favour Residences requirements. 4. Mr. William Hamilton asked the Mr. Hamilton : In view of the unsatis Minister of Public Building and Works factory nature of the answer, I wish to how much he intends to spend this year give notice that I shall endeavour to raise on grace and favour residences within his the matter on the Adjournment as soon as control ; and whether he will itemise possible. this expenditure in relation to each residence. Details are as follows: Hamp/011 Court Palace Mr. C. Pannell : I do not control grace £ Chocolate Court: installation of and favour residences. With permission, lift to serve six grac:e and favour I will circulate details iu the OFFICIAL residences . . . 9,000 REPORT. Apartments 10 and 64: renew lead work to roof . . . 5,000 Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Apartment 4: reoccupation services 3,000 Apartment 32A: reoccupation Friend give me one good reason why services . . . 3,000 public money should be spent on these lntemal painting of staircases ... 800 residences at all? Is he aware that there Minor maintenance services 160 are some very wealthy people occupying K('11Si11gton Palace these houses and that we are constantly Apartment 4: adaptation of sani- being told that where a person can main tary services 1,500 tain and rent his own accommodation he Minor maintenance services 780 St. James's Pa/ace ought to do so, and pay out of his own York House: main roof: renew pocket? Will my right hon. Friend look tiles and lead work, rebuild at this again very carefully in view of chimney stack and point chimney the representations of banking and other stacks 3,000 interests that pubfo.: expenditure ought to be curtailed? Building Materials Mr. Pannell: My job is to look at the 5. Mr. William Hamilton asked the actual cost. I am here not the client but Minister of Public Building and Works to the contractor. It would be worth while what extent the shortages in the supply to state that grace and favour residents of building materials have been over are responsible for internal decorations, come. tenants' repairs, heating and lighting. I 7. Mr. Bence asked the Minister of doubt whether this whole matter can be Public Building and Works what progress put fairly in any answer to a question he is making in overcorning the shortages of this sort. of building materials. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter; Is not it a fact Mr. Boyden: As I told the House on that many of these residences are 15th March, I expect the difficulties over occupied by people who have given long the supply of building materials to and distinguished service to this country diminish during the course of the year and in many cases by their widows? as additional capacity becomes available. 981 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 982 Mr. Hamilton : Can my hon. Friend make a statement about the shortage of give an assurance that the house-building plaster board for the building industry. programme will not be upset by the current shortages of building materials? Mr. Speaker : Mr. Iremonger. It seems Can he 0ive an indication of what repre ~hat he is not here. sentations he is getting from local authori Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of ties on this point? Are they, on the order. Would you give a Ruling, Mr. whole, satisfied with the current position? Speaker, as to what the position is now Mr. Boyden: I cannot be a prophet, abourt my question on plaster board? but the difficulties are mainly local. At Mr. Speaker : I have called the next present, over the country as a whole, the Question and I am now going to call situation is reasonably satisfactory. another one. Mr. Bence: view of the fact that In Departmental Staff (Historic in Scotland we still have surplus labour and surplus manufacturing conditions, Buildings) would my right hon. Friend consult the 18. Mr. Onslow asked the Minister of Scottish Office to see to what extent more Public Building and Works what is the of this industry can be introduced into total number of persons in his Depart Scotland, thereby helping Scotland to ment employed on the restoration and make a greater contribution to the supply preservation of historic buildings. of house-building materials? Mr. C. Pannell : I am sorry for the Mr. Boyden: We are in touch; in fact, delay in finding the reply, but there are Scotland has a surplus of bricks. so many absentees. I thought that the Opposition were anxious to get into the Mr. Boyd-Carpenter : Has not one of fray. the factors W\hich has eased the Minis The answer is : 397 full time ; 49 for ter's problem been the falling off in part of their time. house building because of the shortage of mortgages and high interest rates? Sir D. Renton : Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not saying that the work Mr. Boyden: No, Sir. In fact, the of his Department in relation to the number of starts which the builders are maintenance and repair of historic build coilltemplating is at least as good as last ings is discharged entirely by the num year's. bers of people which he has given? Is not a good deal of work also given to Mr. Emrys Hughes : Is not the Minis contractors? ter aware that the building of houses is being held up in Ayrshire and all over Mr. Pannell: The Question did not Scotland due to the lack of supply of ask that. It concerned those people in plaster board and that contractors are my Department. writing to 11heirM embers urging -- Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker : Order. There is a Mr. Speaker. If this absenteeism is con specific question about plaster board, tinued, will not we be able to get through unless I am deceived, further along. all the Questions in one Session? Mr. Hughes : On a point of order. Mr. Speaker: If we do not have too Surely plaster board is a building many points of order. material? Whitehall Citadel Mr. Speaker: Yes, but we shall not get it answered without anticipating a 26. Sir R. Thompson asked the Question further down. That is the point. Minister of Public Building and Works That makes the difficulty. whether the Whitehall Citadel is cur rently in use ; and for what purpose. The following Question also stood Mr. Boyden : The Citadel is used to upon the Paper : House the Navy Department's Whitehall Mr. IREMONGER: To ask the Minister Wireless Station and for conference of Public Building and Works if he will purposes. 983 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 984 Sir R. Thompson : Could the hon. Mr. Shepherd: Is not this figure of 20 Gentleman say whether, in view of the per cent. on the cost outrageous? Will acute pressure on office space in London the right hon. Genrtleman say what is the now being felt on account of the expan normal cost which is charged as a percent sion of Government Departments, he age of total building operation so that the could find a more fruitful use for these House can compare it wi,th the normal buildings, unless, of course, it would charges which obtain for professional be more provident to demolish them? advisers outside?
Mr. Boyden: I can speak personally Mr. Pannell: The charge covers the full on this, and I dare say that the hon. range of services provided. including Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. salaries, accommodation and associated Thomson) also can. The Citadel is a costs, and is calculated from the cost of horrible place to work in. the service performed in relation to the Minis,try's staff bill. The charge of 20 Sir R. Thompson: Would not the hon. per cent. is a flat rate but applies to all Gentleman therefore feel that it might clients with a few minor exceptions. be appropria te for the Cabinet to he accommodated there in future? Mr. Shepherd: The right hon. Gentle man has not answered my question. What Building Trade Operatives does it amount to as a percentage of cost on average? 27. Mr. Costain asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was the Mr. Pannell: The original Question did total number of building trades opera not ask for that information, but I would tives employed in the London region on be prepared, of course, to take up with the office building in 1963 and 1964. hon. Member specifically any matters which he has in mind. This is a case of Mr. Boyden: Separate details for office the swings and the roundabouts. It was building are not avaifable, but the esti intended to give a global answer, not an mated figure for 1963 was 20,000, and evasive one. for 1964 22,000. 29. Mr. Shepherd asked the Minister of Mr. Costain: Is the Minis,ter aware Public Building and Works what is the that other Govenunent Departments and cha,rge made by his Department for other Ministers have given these figures acquiring freehold and leasehold building in the House, and -that they have written for other Departments. to me to say that the Minister of Public Building and Works is responsible for Mr. C. Pannell: For the Post Office, statistics? How can the Minister now say the full cost of the staff time spent on tha,t tihe figures are not available? acquiring premises for them. For an Exchequer department, our ourt-of-pocket Mr. Boyden: We have not improved expenses : for a non-Exchequer body a them as much as we should like com pared to the achievement of the previous sum equal to the scale fee of the Royal Government. Insbtution of Chartered Surveyors. Mr. Shepherd : Can the right hon. Public Departments (Services) Gentlemain say whether the Government 28. Mr. Shepherd asked the Minister Departments are allowed any freedom to of Public Builcling and Works what is use either the services of his Department the charge made by his Department for or the services of outside bodies, if they designing, engineering and supervisory think that these services ar•e to be pre services in respect of buildings ereoted for ferred? other Departments. Mr. Pannell : No, Sir. Generally Mr. C. Pannell : The cost is normally &peaking, we do this for the Post Office, boirne on my Department's Votes. When but, of course, we often put the work recovered from anotmer Department, an out to other people, that is all. Bu,t addition of 20 per cent. is made to the we aot as the general agents for the Post cost of construction. Office. 985 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 986 modation in order to get on with this House of Commons quickly. (Public Admission) Mr. Pannell: Yes. I am sure that the 30. Mr. McNair-Wilson asked the hon. Member does not underestimate my Minister of Public Building and Works difficulty in this matter. I have read what steps he will take to provide shelter the book to which he referred, but all for members of rbhe public, who are un suitable accommodation in the House is able to oain admittance to St. Stephen's already taken up, and I do not know Hall, when waiting for admission to the whether we can look in some other direc Strangers' Gallery of the House of tion. But at the present time, in view of Commons. the building in Star Court and so on, we Mr. C. Pannell: I understand that the tend, as I am sure everybody wishes us police have been given discretion by the to tend, to put the needs of hon. Mem authorities of the House to allow mem bers first. I think that I have explained bers of the public to wait m Westminster previously that I am very sympathetic Hall in wet weather. towards providing what accommodation we can for the Press, but it is just not Mr McNair-Wilson: Is the Minister available at the moment. awar; that there is more seating avai~ able in Westminster Hall than there 1s House of Commons outside S,t. Stephen's Entrance? Would (Star Court Scheme) he not agree that this Hall, being as 33. Sir D. Glover asked the Minister large as it is, could be use~ by t~e of Public Building and Works if he will public ,to wait in, rather tbai: 1ust wait ing for wet weather, as a possibly perma display a model of the Star Court Scheme, together with plans and detailed draw nent feature? ings. Mr. Pannell: Yes, Sir. I am looking Mr. C. Pannell: Yes, but not until the into this matter. I am sure that the Select Committee have had a chance to authorities of the House will take notice see it. of ,the views of the House. Sometimes, however, this is not an easy question. The Sir D. Glover : Could the Minister in authoritie$ are opposed to a greater use fonn the House when the Select Commit of Westminster Hall, because it would tee are likely to have reached a conclu interfere with its use 'by hon. Members s,ion and when we are likely to see these and would add to the task of the police plans and detailed drawings? in controlling the queue. This Question Mr. Pannell : That is not a matter for conflicts in some ways with the Sessional me. Reference to the Select Committee Order. Thjs is not aJll easy matter to in this matter is almost a matter of privi settle, but we are anxious to meet the public's need. lege. It would be impertinent if I stood at the Box and reflected on their proceed ings at all. But I understand that the House of Commons Select Committee have already had some (Press Accommodation) meetings. It seems to me that if the House delegated to a Select Committee 32. Mr. Marten asked the Minister of questions which arise from the remit to Public Building and Works if he will pro Mr. Speaker, then was courteous vide additional accommodation where it that a rather smaller body should look at hon. Members can meet Lobby and the matter first. There is no discourtesy Gallery correspondents. to the House. As soon as I can I will see Mr. C. PanneJI : I cannot provide that the body of Members have recourse accommodation for this purpose at to all the information which I have. present. House of Commons Mr. Marten : Will the Minister never (Hairdressing Saloon) theless give very serious att,.mtion ~o this 45. Mr. Ian Lloyd asked the Minister Question which was mentioned m the of Public Building and Works whether he Green B~ok? I am sure that he will will take steps to arrange for modern do everything possible to find accom- fixtures and fittings to be installed in 987 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 988 the Members' hairdressing saloon in the Mr. Boyden : These two rooms are House of Commons and for the saloon air-conditioned through the main House to be redecorated. of Commons air-conditioning system. Mr. C. Pannell: No, Sir. Two new Any change in temperature requested by bas;ins were fitted in 1960, and the saloon the staff will be made immediately by was completely redecorated last year ; the Engineer in the Control Room. and I can only say this-that personally Sir Knox Cunningham : Does the hon. I like the Victorian Gothic. Gentleman appreciate that the conditions Mr. Lloyd: Will the right hon. are far from perfect in really hot Gentleman give us some kind of assur weather, and will he bear this in mind ance that he will look at this matter? and keep an eye on the situation? Is he aware that, however much he may Mr. Boyden: The staff have not be wedded to Victorian Gothic, there actually complained but I have had a are those of us on this side who would look at the position. A small thing like something more fitting and that could be put right is to remove belonging more to the twentieth cen a waste-paper basket which obstructs tury? two ducts. Mr. Pannell: I am fraid that if the hon. Gentleman wants a Beatie haircut Polaris Base, Gareloch he cannot get it in this House. I am greatly interested and have seen and 44. Mr. Emrys Hughes asked the spoken to a great many hon. Members Minister of Public Building and Works who use the hairdressing saloon and how many men were employed at the have found that they rather liked the end of April on the Polaris submarine atmosphere of the place. There is no base at Gareloch ; and how many of particular demand, except from people them were construction workers who came in at the last election, to try plumbers, joiners, engineers or plasterers'. to alter this hairdressing saloon. Mr. Boyden : The figures are 1,148 Mr. Snow : Is my right hon. Friend and 862. aware that Victoriana should be main tained and sustained; that there are many Mr. Hughes : As these 1,148 men are excellent qualities of Victoria's age that building workers badly needed for hous we should respect, and that we have ing, for schools and for consit:ruotion work no respect at all for the demands of will my hon. Friend assure the House thait this scheme is not given prioriity over these the political Teddy boys opposite? necessary things? Mr. Speaker: Order. That is a bit Mr. Boyden: Matters of policy of that wide of the hairdressing saloon. description are not for me. Unfortunately, Sir Knox Cunningham: Would it be in the building industry, maJterials and possible to get a Beatle wig in this men are not always in the right place. House? The duty of my Departmeuit is ,to try to see that they get into the right place. Mr. Pannell : Mr. Spea~er has just ruled out the previous supplementary Mr. Hughes : Will the Minister assure question as irrelevant, and I merely ns that there are no shortages of plaster characterise this one as being rather silly. board on this scheme?
House of Commons Mr. Boyden: No, Sir. There is a (Members' Post Office) shor;tage of plaster boards, as I would have explained in answering Quesition No. 6. 47. Sir Knox Cunningham asked ihe Minister of Public Building and Works if be will investigate the methods of Historic Monuments (Public ventilation in the Members' Post Office Admissions) and sorting room of the House of Com 48. Mr. Park asked ,the Minister of mons, with a view to installing fans or Public Building and Works how the other means of improving conditions for attendance figures and receipts for 1964 those working there during the summer ; at the historic monuments in his care and whether he will make a statement. compare with those for 1963. 989 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 990 Mr. Boyden: In 1964, some 8,330,000 of social welfare have submitted ev1- people visited monuments at which there dence to him in connection with his is an admission oharge, and the revenue review of social security. amounted to jus,t under £427,000. These are record figur,es, and represent an in The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lan crease of upwards of 703,000 visitors and caster (Mr. Douglas Houghton): A num more than £61,000 in revenue over the ber of organisations and individuals 1963 total. have written to me, but none has sent any formal evidence. Mr. Park : While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him Lord Balniel : Is the right hon. Gen whether he does not believe that the oosi tleman aware that his reluctance to con tion could be still further improved if he sult certain private occupational pension were ,to include among the historical schemes has given a widespread impres monuments under his care some hon. sion that his scheme will hit at private Members opposite? occupational pension schemes? Will he Mr. Boyden : There is, in faot, a com give an assurance that such schemes will mittee meeting on this subjeot later today, play a major and increasing part in the when my hon. Friend's suggestion can, social security provisions of this perhaps, be considered. country? Fire Surveyors and Officers Mr. Houghton : I deny any suggestion (Pay) of a refusal or hesi,tation to consult any 49. Dame Irene Ward asked the body about anything in this review. The Minister of Public Building and Works -door is wide open to anybody who on wha,t date the negotiations w~th fire wishes to send anything in. I assure surveyors and fire officers were concluded ; the hon. Member that we shall not over and with what result. look any representations which anyone cares to make. As to the representatives Mr. Boyden : Agreement has not yet of occupational pension schemes, I have been reaohed. had conversations with at least one body, Dame Irene Ward : On a poinrt of and in any case it is obviously one of order, Mr. Speaker. I could not hear the major questions of the review as to what the Minister said. how to reconcile the interests of the occupational schemes and the State Mr. Boyden: Agreement has not yet scheme. been reached. Dame Irene Ward : Could I, then, ask Mr. William Hamilton : Could my the Minister- in view of the undertaking right hon. Friend say which independent I was given some months ago that neoo bodies, if any, were asked for informa• tiations were about to be concluded tion by or sent evidence to the previous when we may expect the Department to Administration when they were intro honour the undertaking given to these ducing their graduaited scheme and what people? notice was taken of it? Mr. Boyden: As the hon. Lady knows, Mr. Houghton: That seems to me to this sort of negotiation is a tricky busi be a question addressed to the benches ness, and the Department is proceeding opposite. I have no knowledge of it. as fast as possible. Mr. Ridsdale: How long will this Dame Irene Ward : That's no answer. review take? Surely the Minister has Mr. Speaker: It appears to be an enough evidence already from my hon. answer. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave), especially about non-contribu tory pensioners, many of whom are in DUCHY OF LANCASTER urgent need. Social Security (Review) Mr. Houghton : The review is pro 35. Lord Balniel asked the Chan ceeding, and we are making good pro cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster which gress, but I cannot say how long it will independent bodies working in the field be before it is complete. 991 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 992 36. Lord Balniel asked rube Ohancellor The Paymaster-General (Mr. George of the Duohy of Lancaster whether he Wigg) : The Civi1l Service machinery is wi11l list the independent bodies working avaiilable to me and Departments are i!Il tthe field of social welfare wh�oh he has consul,ted as appropriate. invited to submit evidence to him in his review of soci,al security. Mr. Campbell : As 1t can hardly be fuU-itime work, may 1 ask whether this Mr. Houghton: No invi,tations have staff also assists the Paymaster-General yet been issued. As I ,told 1Jhe hon. in his otiher duties? Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Pa:trick Jenkin) on 24th Maroh, the Mr. Wigg: Yes, Sir. Govemmenrt will be seeking the vieiws of , s Mr. Dodds-Parker: Does that include major organisations on pa,riticwlar isues ooJ,Jecting dossiers on all Members of as they anise, but tihis wiU not be until Pal'liament, or just those on the Govern work on ·tihe review is fuvllher advanced. ment side of the House? Lord Balniel: As many months have passed since 1Jhis review was initiated, Mr. Wigg : The hon. Member knows thait ·that question is silly, so I will not surely the time has come when 1Jhe right b hon. Genrtileman should be able •ro invite trou .J ,~-- 1 995 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 996 Mr. William Hamilton : Further to that the Question, l am telling the hon. point of order. This cannot go by de Member that I am not in a position to fault. You recognise, no doubt, that the give the information which he wants abuse originated on the opposite side of at this stage. I am therefore making the House, Mr. Speaker, so that my right inquiries. That is quite proper. hon. Friend is perfectly entitled to reply in kind. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter : Is it not the Mr. Speaker: That is why I did not right hon. Gentleman's duty to answer assign any blame exclusively to either Questions in this House? Since my hon. side of the House but said that hon. Friend's Question relates only to " re Members should abstain from it. I said gular publications ", why does the right both sides, that is what I meant and hon. Gentleman not know the answer? that is what I maintain. Mr. Wigg: I could give an answer, Mr. Biggs-Davison: On a point of but I prefer to give an accurate one. order. Is it not a gross abuse for a [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh.") I am sure Minister of the Crown contemptuously that this seems foreign to the right hon. to refuse to account for his duties to Gentleman, looking back on his past the House of Commons? Are not Minis record. The Question relates to a whole ters still responsible to Parliament for range of Government activities. If the their duties? hon. Member for Bournemouth, West wants a specific answer on the foreign Mr. Speaker : That raises no point of services he must put down Questions order for me. If the answer which is to the Departments concerned. If he given on some topic is thought to be in wants an answer to those relating to sufficient that is not a matter for the the C.O.1. then I can give it to him, Chair. but I am not sure of the points at this Mr. G. Campbell : On a point of stage, sinc.e exhaustive inquiries have Order. In view of the unsatisfactory not yet been made. Therefore, I prefer nature of the Paymaster-General's reply, to wait and then give a full and accurate I beg to give notice that I shall seek to answer. raise the matter on the Adjournment. Mr. Ridsdale : ls it not time that the Paymaster-General arranged some train Information Services ing courses for the civil servants in his (Publications) Department? 39. Sir J. Eden asked the Paymaster Mr. Wigg: I should have thought that General what regular publications are even the hon. Gentleman would have now being sponsored by the Govern concentrated his attack on me and not ment's information services. on my civil servants. Mr. Wigg : I am making inquiries and Mr. A. J. Irvine : Is it not perfectly I will ensure that the result is com clear that the Question about regular municated to the hon. Gentleman. publications is full of ambiguity and Sir J. Eden : That reply is even more that nobody knows the real answer? irrelevant and displays a greater degree [Interruption.] of ignorance than is normally shown Mr. Wigg : My hon. and learned by the right hon. Gentleman. Would he Friend is perfectly correct. It is an make some attempt to show some cour appalling reflection on the ignorance tesy to the House of Commons and give of hon. Gentlemen opposite that they do us at least a reasonable Answer to not know that there are some publica the Question on the Order Paper? tions which are paid for-and for which, Mr. Wigg: The hon. Member does therefore, one can get the information not seem to be aware that his Question from the Stationery Office-while other covers the whole range of Government publications are free and are put out information services. I am not respon by Departments. In view of this, it sible for that. I am responsible only takes a fair while to get the sort of for the home services. In answer to information sought in the Question. 997 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 998 honestly, more straightforwardly and Security more competently than he did. 40. Mr. Kershaw asked the Paymaster Sir D. Renton : In view of the right General what steps he is taking to hon. Gentleman's apparent unwillingness ensure the security of his Department ; to perform the duties for which he was and if he will make a statement. seconded to the Government, has not the time come for him to be sent back 42. Sir F. Bennett asked the to his regiment? [Laughter.] Paymaster-General what steps he is taking to ensure the security of his Mr. Wigg: That got some laughs, but Department ; and if he will make a what relevance it has to the Question I statement. do not know. If hon. Gentlemen oppo site want to know the nature of my duties Mr. Wigg: The normal rules for they can ask my right hon. Friend the security in Government Departments Prime Minister just what they are. are, of course, enforced. However, to make reflections, as the right hon. and learned Member for Hunting Mr. Kershaw: I thank the right hon. donshire (Sir D. Renton) appeared to do, Gentleman for that helpful reply. Will on the fact that I served in the ranks of he say whether the new form of positive the Regular Army is just. the action of vetting or the old form is employed in his Department? a cad. Mr. Wigg: The question of positive vetting in my Department is subject to HOUSE OF COMMONS the normal rules. The hon. Gentleman CATERING can be assured that the rules are being fully carried out. 43. Mr. Rankin asked rthe hon. Mem ber for Liverpool Exchange, as Chair Mr. Shinwell : Is my right hon. Friend man of the Kitchen Committee, how aware that we have much more security many measures are obtained from a now than we had during the last 13 five-gill bottle of gin in each of the years? various bars under the control of her Committee. Mr. Wigg: My right hon. Friend is perfectly right. This is another sphere Mrs. Braddock : Thirty-two measures in which we were left a legacy which are obtained from the bottle of gin, was a disgrace to those who were which contains 26f fluid ounces. responsible. Mr. Rankin: I thank my hon. Friend Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Pay for that reply, but is she aware that her master-General quote any case in the figures show that, sold by the measure, previous Administration where a member a bottle of gin provides an income of of the Cabinet left confidential papers £4? Is she further aware that that in a public restaurant? represents a profit of 51 per cent. on the retail price of the bottle, not on the cost Mr. Wigg: If there were, we could be price? Since other beverages, such as perfectly sure that the behaviour of the whisky, show a profit sold in the same hon. gentleman who found them would way of 70 per cent., and sherry even more, be very different from the way he be does she not think that it would be haved last week. worth her while looking closely into this Mr. Biggs-Davison : Is it not a fact system of pricing in the House, because that there is not really anything at all to it seems to violate the policy of the secure in the right hon. Gentleman's Government? office? Is he not presiding over a Mrs. Braddock : Being a complete tee picturesque, historic vacuum? totaller, I know nothing whatever of the Mr. Wigg: I hope the hon. Gentleman measures, the drinking, the costs, or any realises that I am not the first person to thing else regarding spirits, but I will hold this office. The right hon. Gentle promise my hon. Friend to make all the man who was my predecessor held this inquiries I can from the experts in the office. I hope -that I will discharge it more House and let him know the answer. 999 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral A nswers 1000 Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is the hon. Lady I do not see any point in their not all r aware that milk, a teetotal commodity being advertised. retailing at 9s. 4d. a gallon in the House, shows a mark-up of over 300 per cent. Mr. Loughlin : In practice, I think on what the farmer gets for it? that they have all been advertised, but what the right hon. Gentleman may have Mrs. Braddock : If the hon. Gentleman fou nd, as I have found, is that where will put down a Question, I will get him there has been no response to an adver the answer. tisement in the first instance, the hospital management committee has made an appointment without re-advertising, be HOSPITALS cause of the failure of response. Staffordshire Mental Hospitals (Nursing Staff) Royal Sussex County Hospital (Accident Centre) 51. Mr. Hugh Fraser asked the Minis ter of Health why senior posts on the 56. Sir T. Beamish asked the Minister nursing staff of Staffordshire mental hospi of Healllh if he will reprint in the tals are not advertised ; and why prefer OFFICAL REPORT the instructions sent on ence is given to men in the appointment 15th Ootober by his Department to the of assistant matrons. Brighton and Lewes Hospital Manage ment Committee, postponing for two The Parliamentary Secretary to the years the urgently needed accident centre Ministry of Health (Mr. Charles at the Royal Sussex County Hospital ; Loughlin) : Hospitals exercise their dis and what representations he has received cretion in this, but my information is about •llhis decision, in view of the present that most of the hospitals mentioned inadequacy of the casualty department. advertise these posts. I am also advised The Minister of Health (Mr. Kenneth that no preference is given to men. Robinson) : No such instruction was Mr. Fraser: Would the Parliamentary issued by my Department. I have Secretary consider that the exercise of received representations from my hon. their judgment on this sort of thing is Friend the Member for Brighton, not always up to what the Minister has Kemptown (Mr. Hobden), the hon. Mem been told? I am sure the Minister will ber for Brighton, Pavilion (Sir W. agree that it is important that these posts Teeling) and from Brighton County should be advertised as otherwise there Borough. is fear of victimisation by certain mem bers of the staff. Surely, in female wards Sir Tufton Beamish : Is the Minister there should be fully qualified female aware that his hon. Friend made a posi nurses in charge? Would the hon. tive allegation that this postponement for Gentleman look at both allegations? two years resulted from a concrete direc tive issued on polling day by the previous Mr. Loughlin : I can assure the right Administration? ls it not quite clear hon. Gentleman that we have already from bis reply that that is not the case, looked into the situation in the hospitals and will he please bear in mind that in the area to which his Question refers. there is a greait and growing need for an I can assure him that there has been no accident centre in Brighton and do his preferential treatment given to the men. utmost to give it high priority? There may have been an increase in the appointment of men, but that is in the Mr. Robinson: I know that there is nature of things today because of women the need for a modern casualty depart leaving to get married. Most of the ment, although I understand that the jobs have been advertised. lf the right present one, admittedly inadequate, is hon. Gentleman likes to give me details of doing well. I have already said that no any particular case or cases, I give him circular was issued by my Department. au assurance that I will go into the matter This postponement was decided by the very fully. regional hospital board as a result of reviewing i,ts own programme which it Mr. Fraser : Will the hon. Gentleman found would have been overloaded had see that all these posts are advertised? this item remained in it. 1001 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answe1·.1· 1002 long ago the conductor refused to play SYMPHONY ORCHESTRAS Russian music on the ground that it (OVERSEAS TOURS) supported the Communists? 58. Sir J. Eden asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the VICTIMS OF NAZI PERSECUTION amount of public money that has been (COMPENSATION) given in each of the last five years through the British Council to provincial 59. Sir B. Janner asked the Secretary symphony orchestras for tours abroad ; of State for Foreign Affairs if he will how this compares with the allocation of make representations to the German funds for this purpose by the British authorities regarding the necessity of Council to London symphony orchestras ; providing full compensation for those and what plans he has to improve the victims of the Nazis who are excluded relative position of provincial symphony under the present law because they were orchestras. living in Eastern Europe on October 1953 or were otherwise unable to claim The Minister o( State, Foreign Affairs by that date. (Mr. Walter Padley): In the past five years, the British Council paid £22,225 Mr. Padley : Her Majesty's Govern to one provincial symphony orchestra in ment have drawn the attention of the . the financial year 1961-62 in connection Federal German Government to the with an overseas tour. In the same widespread concern expressed in this period the Council paid £113,383 to House and elsewhere that all persons London symphony orchestras in support who suffered Nazi persecution should of tours to foreign countries. None of be equitably treated in the matter of these payments were subsidies to the compensation. ordhestras concerned but arose from guarantees against loss. Requests for Sir B. Janner: I thank my hon. Friend assistance by all symphony orchestras are for that reply. In view of the fact that considered in the light of what will best the final decision in respect of these promote British interests overseas at a claims is to be made very shortly in given time. Germany, will my hon. Friend make a further attempt to bring the Germans to Sir J. Eden : Will the hon. Gentleman realise the importance of this very neces always bear in mind the claims of pro sary provision for the victims of Nazism? vincial symphony orchestras to get as much support as possible for their tours Mr: Padley: Her Majesty's Govern abroad? Is he aware that recently the ment have no formal standing in this, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra was but, without going into the details of arranging a tour of Europe, including specific categories, we have made known Eastern Germany, and had very little to the Federal German Government our financial support for the venture? Will he concern about this matter and our sym give such claims as sympathetic a hearing pathy with the request made by the as he can? United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. If we judge it appropriate and Mr. Padley: It is not the function of useful, we sha'11 certainly make further the British Council to subsidise orches representations. tras in this country, nor has it power to Sir T. Beamish: Is the Minister of make such grants. It can assist overseas State aware that a certain number, tours in appropriate cases by giving a although not a large number, of those guarantee against actu~l loss. In all excluded from compensation under the appropriate cases approval of the ad present laws and the new draft laws visory committee is sought. The chair are not in fact British subjects and that man of that committee is Lord the British Home Office has a direct res-· Harewood. ponsibility? Will the hon. Gentleman look at those particular cases? Mr. Snow: Will my hon. Friend be careful about the Bournemouth Sym Mr. Padley: Yes, certainly, but it is phony Orchestra because not so very difficult to renegotiate a treaty which 1003 Oral Answers 17 MAY 1965 Oral Answers 1004 is IO years old. We hope that the Federal become unnecessary as soon as aggression German uovernment will be generous from the Nor.th ceases and a settlement when they amend the Indemnification becomes possible? Law. Mr. Speaker: Order. This appears to Captain W. Elliot: Will the hon. Gen be mjJes wide of the terms of reference tleman bear in mind that there are many of British policemen as reported appar Poles in Germany who have received ently in the Daily Mirror. nothing from the Germans in compen Mr. Rankin : In view of the serious sation for what they suffered ? I under naiture of some of the crimes taking place stand that the reason was that the West in t>hiscountry, would not these policemen German Government did not recognise be betiter employed at home rather than Poland. Now that they do recognise abroad? Poland, will the hon. Gentleman take up Mr. Padley : There are six Bri,tish this matter with them? advisers on police matters in South Mr. Padley : I shall certainly bear that Vietnam. I do not believe that ,to bring point in mind. but this matter is deter them back would make a useful con mined by a treaty negotiated 10 years tribution to the conquest of crime in ago. Although we can make represen Britain. tations, the hon. and gallant Member Mr. Michael Foot : In view of the will, 1 am sure, recognise that there are serious nature of the allegations which difficulties. were made in tbe report in the Daily Mirror, and in view of the fact that my hon. Friend the Minister of State VIETNAM has said that these statements have been 65. Mr. Emrys Hughes asked the repudiated by the policemen concerned, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with will he undertake to make a full examina what terms of reference British policemen tion of the whole matter and give a are serving in South Vietnam. report to the House, in HANSARDo r by other means, so that we may look at the Mr. Padley: The police advisers are whole investigation which has taken arbtached to the Unirt:ed States Operations place? 1 Mrission in Vietnam. Their duties are to assist this organisation in advising the Mr. Padley: The article in question did Soutib Vietnamese Government on all not refer to conduct of the British police aspeots of police work. officers. Certainly the matter to wbicb my hon. Friend has referred can be looked at. Mr. Hughes: Has the attention of the Mini<er been drawn to a rather remark Sir F. Bennett : Is the Minister of State able interview with these police which aware thait, while we support what is appeared in the Daily Mirror last week? going on w~th reference ito our police What are Br~tish policemen doing helping officers, the Prime Minister, in answer the South Vietnam Government? Is the to a not dissimilar Question put by me, hon. Gentleman aware •that these police said that although there was diplomatic men said that they were sick of the support for the Americans in South tontures used by the people who employ Vietnam, there was no intention of any them? 16 it not time that they were British personnel becoming involved in brought home? South Vietnam? How does the hon. Gentleman square tha,t with his Answer Mr. Padley : The police officers have today? dissociaited themselves entirely from the substance of •the report. Mr. Padley : I have made iit quite clear that these six police officers are not en Mr. Biggs-Davison : Has not this coun gaged in military activities in any way but try reason to be grateful for ,tbe presence are merely aoting in a civil advisory of -this mission in Vietnam? [Interrup capacity in Vietnam. tion.] Has not this country, as well as Vietnam, reason to be grateful for the Mr. Hughes: In view of rtihe unsa,tisfac work of this mission? Is it not -the case tory nature of the Answer, I beg to give that all these exceptional measures of notice that I shall raise the matter on assi9tance .to the South Vietnamese will the Adjournment. 1005 Military Aircraft 17 MAY 1965 (A11glo-Fre11ch Memorandum) 1006 Mr. Skeffington: My right hon. Friend MINISTRY OF LAND AND would raither wait for a fuller report from NATURAL RESOURCES the Water Resources Board. At bis Water Supplies request this was a preliminary estimate 67. Mr. Wallace asked the Minister of so that we may begin to know the size Land and Natural Resources whether the of the problem to be evaluated. We want preliminary assessment of the position raither more detail before it can be regarding water conservation he has published. r•eceived from the Waiter Resources Board reveals any areas where there are likely in the future to be difficulties in providing MILITARY AIRCRAFT sufficient supplies of water. (ANGLO-FRENCH 70. Mr. Harry Howarth asked the MEMORANDUM) Minister of Land and Natural Resources The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. whether the statement regarding water Denis Healey): I rise to inform the conservation submitted to him by the House that after discussions wirtb our Water Resources Board indicates any French colleagues, M. Messmer and M. regions where water supplies are surplus Jacquet, my right hon. Friend the Minis to forecast requirements. ter of Aviation and I have today signed The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to a Memorandum of Understanding on the the Ministry of Land and Natural joint development of two military aircraft. Resources (Mr. Arthur Skeffington): The The firsit is a supersonic fixed-wing preliminary survey made by the Water aircraft which we shall use both in tlhe Resources Board shows those river autho Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy rity areas which, on the available infor as an advanced trainer to replace the maition, are " problem" areas. that is, Hunter and the Gnat. and which the those which are already facing supply French will use both as a trainer and in problems or will do so in the 1970s and the light s,trike role. Both Governments 1980s, and "su rplus" areas, that is, those will commit enough funds to enable the areas which have water resources surplus prototype s,tage of aircraft and engine to to their needs. The " problem " areas are he completed, and the intention of both the South-East England; North-West Governments is to proceed to full England ; Northumbria ; South Wales; produotion. and West Midlands areas. The" surplus" areas in relation to the " problem " areas Both Governments are convinced thait are: for South-East England, the Great there will be a wide variety of uses for Ouse, Tha_mes and Hampshire areas ; for aircraft with variable geometry in the North-West England, the Cumberland and middle and late 1970s and thereafter and Lancashire areas ; for the Northumbrian this is the basis for the work which is area, Cumberland, the Yorkshire Ouse to be done on the second aircraft. The and Scotland: for South Wales there Memorandum of Understanding provides are abundant sources which need to be for each side ,to examine such an aircraft redistributed: and for the West Midlands, in relation to the projected operational the Severn and Wye. needs, to formulate the technical specifi cation and to make preliminary industrial Mr. Wallace : Is my hon. Friend aware studies, with the full intention of entering that the Answer to this problem would upon a joint project in due course. Both most likely be a national water grid? Governments will commit funds for the Mr. Skeffington : My hon. Friend will design, construction and development of no doubt realise that the Minister is the engine and the provision of engines charged with the responsibiHty of bringing for the prototype aircrafit. Safeguards before the House in due course arrange have been written into the Memorandum ments which will look at this problem to enable either Government to withdraw from the point of view of the nation as a for reasons of national importance. whole. This Agreement, Mr. Speaker, puts the Mr. Boyd-Carpenter : Is it intended to seal on the recent understanding between publish in rather fuller form the facts President de Gaulle and my right hon. referred to in the hon. Gentleman's Friend the Prime Minister. It offers far Answer to his hon. Friend? reaching prospects for the future of our 1007 Military Aircraft 17 MAY 1965 (Anglo-French Memorandum ) 1008 [MR. HEALEY.] On the question of the use of the respective aircraft industries and a!1 variable geometry aircraft, as the right exciting challenge to the skill and expen hon. Gentleman knows, it is likely that ence of our scientists and engineers on the we s,hall have to withdraw from service frontiers of aerodynamics. during the middle and late 1970s the Buccaneer, the Lightning and the Mr. Soames : I congratulate the right Phantom. We are satisfied that the hon. Gentleman on seeking to ma,in,tain variable geometry aircraft now under con the momentum of Anglo-French co sideration with the French Government operation in the aircraft industry which is likely to be a suitable replacement for was pursued so vigorously and effectively some, or possibly all, of these aircraft, by the previous Government, particu which will then be obsolescent. larly as to the Concord. On the question of co-operation with Is the right hon. Gentleman aware other European countries, the French that agreement with the French on the Government and we ourselves recognise trainer project had been virtually com the advantages which can flow from pleted in October of last year? Will he associating other allied Governments tell the House why it has taken so long with the projects at a suitable stage. We to reach fruition with a formal signing? have, therefore, agreed to consider jointly wm he confirm that the swing-wing air at the oppropriate stage informing other craft is only a design study and that there Governments of the nature of our pro is as yet no operational requirement or jects and inviting them, if this seems suit specification for it? Will he endeavour able, to co-operate with us on the pro to make this a truly European project? jects themselves. With this in view, has he in the early discussions he bas been having with the On the question of the FlllA, it is a French also had discussions with the fact that the variable geometry aircraft Germans and other European countries? now under consideration with the French would not be in service in the Royal Finally, would 1:-he right hon. Gentle Air Force until eight to 10 years after man also confim1 that in his view it will we require a replacement for the Can• be necessary still to order the Fl 11 to berra and, therefore, there is no relation bddge the gap between ,the Canberra, ship between the FlllA problem and which will be going out of service in the the variable geometry aircraft now under late 1960s, and this aircraft, which will consideration with the French. be coming into service in the middle or late 1970s, made necessary by the can Mr. Paget: Would my right hon. cellation of the TSR2? Friend tell us a little more about what is meant by the cancellation clause, which Mr. Healey : I thank the right hon. be said may be invoked for reasons of Gen,tleman for his kind words. I under national interests? Are the national stand the natural chagrin he feels that he interests contemplated a change brought was unable to conclude such an agree about in our commitments, a. change ment while bis party was in power. brought about in the escalation of price As for the reason for the delay be within the contract, or what? tween October and the present, whoo we Mr. Healey : The cancellation clause got into office we found that the basis relates primarily to the question of the on which the previous Government were likely performance and cost of these negotiating made it quite impossible to projects, both of which are still at an reach an agreement with the French, be early stage. Under the Memorandum of cause previous Government wanted the Understanding which we have signed. the strike trainer itself to have variable either side can withdraw from either geometry and this would not have met project by giving 12 months' notice. the French time scale. It was only be Until 1st June, 1967-that is, over two cause the present Government were pre years from now-ei ther side can with pared to adapt their operational require draw from the variable geometry air ments to those of a potential co-operator, craft without giving 12 months' notice, something which the previous Govern but the Government withdrawing will be ment never did in any field, that we were required, if the other so wis~, to ~o~ able to reach the agreement today. plete their work on the engme w1thm 1009 Military Aircraft 17 MAY 1965 (Anglo-French M emorandum ) 1010 agreed financial limits. I must point out Mr. Healey : I must point out to the to my hon. and learned Friend that we hon. Gentleman, as I have already to should not have entered into this arrange the House in an earlier debate, that ment if we had thought it likely that we there would have been no chance what should wish to withdraw. ever for accommodating either of these collaborative projects inside our air Sir Ian Orr-Ewing : Has the Secretary craft programme if we had kept in the of State come to any agreement on the programme the three purely British pro development of the ancillary equipment jects, which we have now cancelled. for these advanced projects with the There would simply not have been the French? In particular, is the British money available. There would uot have electronics industry to be given a reason been the money available for the three able chance of tendering for and develop British projects either, and that is why ing the necessary equipment? Would we have cancelled them. he bear in mind that some very sophisti cated equipment was developed and Mr. Frank Allaun : Will my right hon. virtually completed for the TSR2 and Friend give the House a very approxi that some of this at least might be avail mate estimate of the total cost of these able and suitable for incorporation into projects, because before embarking on one or both of these projects? such sophisticated measures as this should not we have some idea of the Ml'. Healey: I will certainly bear the tremendous expenditure involved, par latter point in mind. I can assure the ticularly as many of us think that it hon. Gentleman that British industry would be better spent on non-military will be given full opportunity to tender projects? for the equipment in both aircraft, though it is far too early to say precisely Mr. Healey : I cannot give my hon. what will be the requirement for the Friend the full details of the cost of ancillary equipment. the projects, because that will depend on the number of aircraft ordered. The Mr. Dalyell : Are the preliminary unit cost of the aircraft finally produced industrial studies to begin soon, because will deoend on the size of the total from the correspondence the Secretary market.· We recognise the advantage, of State entered into with me, he will for that reason, of associating not only know that there is some urgency about two but more countries in the project this in relation to Ferrantis and the elec at a suitable stage. But I can tell tronic complex round Edinburgh? the House now that the agreement com mits us to an initial expenditure of Mr. Healey : The studies have, in a about £20 million on the two aircraft. sense, already begun and they will pro ceed as fast as we can possibly bring Mr. Lubbock : Is it the Government's them forward. We are fully conscious policy to try to set up machinery for of the need to give British industry the co-operation with the European aircraft maximum opportunity to tender for part industries in a much wider field than of this project in time to keep it going. this, or are any future ventures of this kind to be carried out on a purely Mr. Maude: Could the Secretary of ad hoc basis such as, for example, the State be a little more specific about the aircraft which we are currently discus far-reaching prospects for the aircraft sing with the French? industry? Is he saying that a trainer and a design study for a variable Can the right hon. Gentleman say geometry aircraft will fill the gap caused whether any offer has been made to the by the cancellation of three major pro other European aircraft industries to par jects? Whereas these new projects ticipate in the production of the strike would have come in very nicely in the trainer aircraft, even if they cannot be programme after the three major pro involved in its design and development? jects, if they had been carried through, Finally, can the right hon. Gentleman will it not leave a gap in the aircraft say to what extent the design or devel industry which these new projects will opment work of these two projects that not wholly fill? he has mentioned will enable the firms in Vol. 712 . R 1011 Colliery Explosion, 17 MAY 1965 Rhondda Valley 1012 [MR. LUBBOCK.] Investigations are now taking place the industry to bold on to staff which and I have meanwhile decided that a would otherwise have been displaced by public inquiry should be held under the TSR2 cancellation? Section 122 of the Mines and Quarries Mr. Healey: In reply to the last point, Act, 1954. it will not be possible for the firms to I should like to express my deep sym hold on to all the men displaced by the pathy to the relatives and friends of the previous cancellations, nor would it be men who are missing, and my hope that our desire that they should do so. One the injured men will recover quickly. of the reasons for the earlier changes in the aircraft programme was to enable Mr. Selwyn Lloyd : Is the right hon. the country to deploy resources more Gentleman aware that my right hon. and efficiently from the point of view of the hon. Friends and I wish to be associated national interest as a whole. This inevit with his expression of regret at this very tragic accident, and sympathy with all ably means some running down of the total number of people employed in the those who ha ve suffered thereby? aircraft industry. Mr. Lee: I am much obliged to As to the other question, we are con the right hon. and learned Gentleman. tinuing contact with all other European countries which have aircraft industries. Mr. G. Elfed Davies : This is a very I discussed the possibility of common pro sad moment for me, because whilst this jects with the German Government when coliliery is not actually in my con I was in Germany a few weeks ago, but stituency but is in the constituency of ii is our experience, which I think right my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Gentlemen opposite will confirm, Rhondda, West (Mr. Iowerth Thoma s), that any international project is a very many of those who work in this colliery difficult thing to get off the ground. live in my constituency. One cannot really start usefully an in I am sure that I am expressing the ternational project on the basis of more wish and desire of my hon. Friend in than two countries co-operating. Once extending sincere sympathy with the one has got it start~d, there may well relatives and friends of my comrades be a case for associating others. As I who are still missing. have already explained, this is envisaged May I thank the Minister for the state in the Memorandum of Understanding. ment he has just made and for the Mr. Soames: Would the right hon. assurance that a public inquiry will be Gentleman confirm that the specification held. will be such as to enable this aircraft to Mr. Lee : I am much obliged to my carry and deliver, if need be, the tactical hon. Friend. nuclear weapon? Mr. Healey: I cannot confirm that at present. What I can say is that we are PERSONAL STATEMENT satisfied that the operational require ment for a variable geometry aircraft of Mr. William Hamilton: With per medium weight and size is fully estab mission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a lished in both countries. personal statement. During the course of the debate on COLLIERY EXPLOSION, the War Damage Bill last Wednesday I RHONDDA VALLEY made reference to a Sir John Gi1lmour as being a shareholder in the Burmah Oil The Minister of Power (Mr. Frederick Company. The record shows that I Lee): With your permission, Mr. apologised to the hon. Member for Fife, Speaker, I wish to make a statement. East (Sir J. Gilmour) for the mistake I I regret to inform the House that at made in assuming that he was the Sir about one o'clock this afternoon there John Gilmour referred to. was an explosion at the Cambrian Col I wish to make it clear that the infor liery, Rhondda Valley. First reports mation supplied to me by the Library indicate that about 28 persous are miss staff was, as usual, entirely accurate and ing. that the error made was entirely mine. 1013 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1014 occasion, when we have a very big task FINANCE (No. 2) BILL in front of us. Considered in Committee. I might add, in that connection, that, as we are proposing some sweeping re forms in our code of taxation, my mind [Dr. HORACEKING in the Chair] will not be closed inflexibly to technical Amendments that will improve and not 3.48 p.m. hinder the purposes of the Bill ; and that, The Chairman: l have a brief state although in normal years I have not ment to make. As some hon. Members always noticed this flexibility, it will be will know, I have had placed this after noon in the Lobby my provisional selec present at least on this occasion. tion of Amendments in the earlier part of I hope that we shall be able to hear the the Bill. Since then I have had repre arguments, at any rate, at a reasonable sentations made to me by hon. and right time of day and be able to do our busi hon. Members. I have given them very ness in the way that would best suit all careful consideration and, as a result, of us on both sides of the Committee. I have made an important modification Mr. Edward Heath (Bexley) : The in the grouping. Chancellor of the Exchequer is, of Front Bench Members will already course, quite right in saying that we are have had this information but, for the beginning consideration of a long and benefit of the Committee as a whole, I complex Bill. I am sure that the Com would ask hon. Members to look at the mittee is glad that the Chancellor has fourth group, the Amendments been able to come here to move this considered with Amendment No. 8. I proce·dural Motion. There must have have pulled out of that group and have been many on both sides of the Commit selected for discussion Amendment No. tee who, over the week-end, were won 89 with which we shall also consider dering whether he would be able to be Amendments No. 11, No. 18, No. 19, with us and whether he would move this No. 90, No. 91 and No. 92, with a Divi Motion or withdraw the Finance Bill sion if necessary on Amendment No. altogether. [HON. MEMBERS: " Oh."] 90. Yes, it is for the Chancellor's Bill that we are considering these arrangements, and Therefore, the order of events before the electorate has given us its verdict on the Committee will now be : first, the the Bill. Amendments under No. 1, then Amend ment No. 3, then No. 86, then the 5ur The net loss to the Chancellor and his hon. Friends of 901 seats works out at viving Amendments grouped under No. four seats for every page of the Bill, not 8; then the Amendments under No. 14 a bad achievement for the Chancellor at and then the Amendments that I have his first " go " and I am sure that, being mentioned under group 89. an honourable gentleman, he would not The Chance1Ior of the Exchequer (Mr. want all the blame to rest on the Prime James Callaghan) : I beg to move, Minister and the First Secretary. That the order in which proceedings in Com The Chancellor has expressed the hope mittee on the Finance (No. 2) Bill are taken that his mind will not be as rigid and in shall be Clause 1, Schedules 1 to 4, Clauses flexil.lle as it has been so far in consider 2 to 5, Schedule 5, Clauses 6 to 41, Schedules ing these matters with a Budget or a 6 to 9, Clauses 42 to 83, Schedules 10 to 18, Clauses 84 to 90, new Clauses, Schedule 19, Finance Bill. We share his hope that he new Schedules. will become more flexible with the pas sage of time. The amount of time which This is a standard fonn of Motion passes will depend probably on his that has been moved every year and I flexibility. The Bill presents difficulties trust that it will be as convenient to the for all of us because of the time at Committee this year as it has been in the which we are starting on it. The right past. lt has relevance to our proceed hon. Gentleman will recall that last year ings because it enables the Clauses that we had a very short Finance Bill and we we discuss to be taken immediately be started the Committee stage three weeks fore the Schedules that relate to them. and five days after Second Reading. This Perhaps it is particularly relevant on this is the longest Finance Bill for 55 years Vol. 712 R2 1015 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1016 [MR. HEATH.] man fears that we shall be interrupted and we are starting on it exactly seven by the Chris,tmas Recess. I assure him days after Second Reading. Both sides thait we shall do our best to help in all of the Committee find themselves in diffi these difficulrties and we shall see what culty because of the ghastly mess into the view of ,the country is on his Finance which the Government have got their Bill. We shall do our best ,to help him business. The whole Committee will by a very ,thorough and detailed considera suffer as a result of having to deal with tion of the Bill. this immensely complicated affair seven Question put and agreed to. days after Second Reading. It will make difficulties for all of us. Resolved, That the order in which proceedings in Schedules 1 to 4 are being moved up Committee on the Finance (No. 2) Bill are to be taken with Clause 1. The reason taken shall be clause 1, Sche!fules I to 4, is that the Chancellor is cheating. Last Clauses 2 to 5, Schedule 5, Clauses 6 to 41, year on the Finance Bill we had a Schedules 6 to 9, Clauses 42 to 83, Schedules IO to 18, Clauses 84 to 90, new Clauses, separate Clause for each of these items. Schedule 19, new Schedules. On this occasion we have them all put in one Clause, presumably because the Clause 1.-(INCREASE OF DUTIES ON Patronage Secretary has told the right SPIRITS, BEER, WINE, BRITISH WINE, hon. Gentleman that he simply cannot risk AND TOBACCO.) discussion of four separate Motions that the Clause stand part of the Bill. I must Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of tell the Chancellor that this is not in the Thanet): I beg to move Amendment No. tradition of the Finance Bill. I am sorry 1, in page 1, Une 16, to leave out sub seotion (1). that he has done it. We notice, also, how much has been I move, also, rto leave out Schedules I, put in ,the Schedules which would norm 2, 3, 4, which cover the whole range of beer, wines and spir1ts, both British and ailly go into rthe Clauses, but we have to otherwise. itake irt as the Chancellor wants it and bring up all ,these things on the Clauses. The Chairman: Order. The hon. Mem Does the right hon. Gentleman really think ber is ,to move his firs,t Amendment only. that by bringing all it!hese four Schedules The ot,bers are consequential and will be up 10 Clause 1 irt will do any good with discussed wirbh it. hi\5 constituents in Cardiff, where there has been rthe greatest swing away from Mr. Rees-Davies: Yes, Dr. King, I was him in the country-15 per cent. overall, about to say bhart the main Amendment and in one ward a swing of 23·2 per cent. is the firsrt one and thart the others which against him? I doubt whether bringing are discussable w1th i,t are Amendments up the four Schedules rto one Clause will Nos. 4 ,to 7, in page 121, line 1, leave aliter the situation in Card~ff. OUlt Schedule I ; in line 31, leave out There is also a point about bringing Schedule 2; in page 122, line I, leave out up to Clauses 6 to 41 all the Schedules Schedule 3 ; and, in line 23, leave out concerned with tihe Cap1tal Gains Tax. Schedule 4. There are among them a good many As my right hon. Friend the Member Clauses which are not concerned with the for Bexley (Mr. Heath) has already said, Capital Gains Tax. It might have been we have begun a long and arduous task. convenient to have had the Schedules up The first thing that we want to get clear to the original Clauses, bU1t perhaps nhe is that this group of Amendments pin right hon. Gentleman was worried about points generally the policies of Her these Clauses being interrupted by Majesty's Government and the principles the Whitsun Recess. Then we have the upon which they ope-rate. It is useful as nexrt lot of Clauses 42 to 83 and the a pipe-opener for the general range of Sohedules brought rtogether, where the the debate later and I will try to set out same problem will arise, burt no doubt the briefly the backcloth against which the right hon. Gentleman is worried about Government's policies are set. that being interrupted by the Summer The purpose is to penalise private Recess. people with punitive taxation, to permit Lastly, there are Gauses 84 to 90, profligacy in the public sector quite where no doubt the right hon. Gentle- openly, to deny personal pleasures to 1017 Finance (No . 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commillee 1018 the public, particularly to the purse of 4.0 p.m. the pensioner, and to push up prices. The most attractive observation which These generally will be the resultant the Chancellor made at that time was effects of the Budget as a whole and when he was amusing on this point and these will be seen, in particular, in rela said: tion to these Amendments. '' We have had a lot of discussion about drugs, I read that Professor Capps, a professor As the Minister of Housing and Local of forensic medicine, has said that as many Governmelllt was sipping his glass of people take drugs today as drink. I do not know Chablis in Prunier's, which resulted in what he includes among the drugs . . . while his losing hi:s papers at the time, and a bottle of whisky costs 45s., one can buy as the First Secretary was taking a good purple hearts ... for 6d. a time" . pull at his gin to fortify himself aiiter It is sad to have to eat one's words, but his recent escapades and to drown his the public are entitled to know that, last sorrows at the recent results, the Chan year, the Chancellor was strongly expres cellor of the Exchequer, whom I am sing the view that in no circumstances delighted to see here, was reminding him should there be a higher rate of penal self of his philosophy last year on the taxation on wines and spirits. He said- subject of whisky and "purple hearts'' these are his words-that · and was being reminded by those in " those who have been directing their attention the Official Box how he could get out against alcohol might ask themselves whether of the difficulties of what he said on we have now reached a situation in which they might transfer their activities " .- [OFFICIAL that occasion. Unfortunately, when he REP ORT, 2nd June, )964 ; Vol. 695, c. 945-6.J considered these matters with his col leagues they overlooked the attention I start by drawing attention to those which they ought to have given to their observations, because I shall show quite philosophy which we on this side of plainly that on certain items we have now the Committee have always said attacks reached the limit. The law of diminish the simple pleasures of life. ing returns is opera6ng. What will the general effects be? First, there will be It is basically because we on this side growing demands for pay and income believe in reducing taxation and have rises to meet the standards which the · always said that the Socialists normal mau and women expects today. believe in a raoid increase of taxation If you ask the ordinary person to pay in the private field, but never believed a penal amount more for his wines, his in a control over their profligacy in the spirits and his beer, there will be a pro public field, that these Amendments found effect on the First Secretary's pinpoint one very useful aspect of this incomes poricy for which the right hon. debate. Gentleman claims so much. It will drive Last June, the Chancellor first of all a coach and horses straight through it by attacked the then Prime Minister, who leading to further pay demands. had made it quite plain that if the The second effect will be that those Labour Party was returned to power who cannot afford to pay these increases there would be an increase in taxation. will suffer rationing by the purse, some The present Chancellor said : thing which profoundly affects many con "The Socialists may be going to raise taxa stituencies where there is a large number tion in the future. I do not think that that is of elderly people and those living on true, and certainly the Prime Minister has small fixed incomes who cannot hope to no occasion for saying it.' find more money to meet the increases. The right hon. Gentleman also said, The third effect-this is a matter about referring ,to our record, that which I know a certain amount myself "It is a record which I am sure the Govern• will be on the tourist trade. This year, ment will be proud to publicise among their there has been a higher number than ever records-that they have raised taxation on spirits to the highest level ever." before coming in from overseas, and many of these people stay for their holi This Government have now not only days in this country. It is not idle to broken the record on spirits twice running suggest that a good many people, when and gone off with the cup, but they have they go on holiday, want to drink a good done it also on wines and on beer as well deal more than, perhaps, they drink to a level never achieved before. otherwise, and wh-en they come here as Vol. 712 R3 1019 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1020 [MR. REES-DAVIES.] the stage when the higher taxation will tourists they like to be able to sit down produce a lower yield and will not and have good food and good drink, to achieve the purpose of obtaining the full go to the " pubs " and enjoy themselves. benefit of taxation for the benefit of the We have now reached a stage when Treasury. prices are so high that many people I turn now to each of these items in claim that it is more expensive to feed turn. First, the wine and spirit trade. here than it is to feed in Paris-and, Here we have broken all known records. goodness knows, that is high enough. It is true that 10 per cent. was put on Undoubtedly, the cost of a meal, if one by my right hon. Friend the Member drinks at all, is so high now compared for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) in April, with other tourist countries that there 1964. There was then the further tax is a serious effect upon the tourist trade. of 15 per cent. applied by the surcharge The recent increases will in due course in October, 1964, and now, in April, have to be carried by the public-they 1965, there is over 4s. a bottle on spirits have been carried by the trade to a - taking into account, of course, the large extent hitherto-and this is likely necessary costs of interest borne by the to have a growing adverse effect upon trade in respect of the 4s. increase restaurants, hotels and other sections of and there is the best part of ls. on the trade. wines. A bottle of whisky or gin now The export trade, also, is affected in carries 34s. in taxation, and this in a this way. There is acute resentment at trade in which there has been no com the continuance of the import surcharge plaint that the ratio of overheads and imposed last October. True, it has been profit margins to prices was not reduced to IO per cent., but no indica reasonable. tion has yet been given that this charge, Whait is the position in which the which was originally to be carried for Treasury finds itself here? Consumption only a few months, is not likely to be per head of the population per year is something of a permanency. The tax about three bottles of wine and about now applied by the Budget on top of three bottles of spirits. Plainly, if the surcharge will lead to a form of further revenue for the Treasury were double taxation which was really never intended by the Chancellor, according desired, there is immense scope for expansion, particularly in wines. But to his stated aims last October when he said the purpose was purely to reduce there is scope for expansion only imports. We now find that the resultant if ithe purpose is to secure the effect, in fact, is double taxation. It is maximum yield by having moderate worth remembering that both wines and and, if possible, reduced prices. The spirits have been regarded as foodstuffs, evidence provided by the Budgeit is quite but they were specially excluded from to the contrary. Taxes have been imposed the exemptions which were applied to recklessly and without regard to the bas.ic foodstuffs at the time. purposes of taxa,tion in this connection, namely, to secure the maximum benefit The next factor which calls for atten to the public by the highest yield to the tion is the complete lack of imagination Treasury. The law of diminishing in the Budget. There are other directions returns has at last begun to operate in in which the Chancellor could have two respects. looked to find the tax, if tax was re quired, and, in any case, I am by no For the first quarter of 1965, there was means certain that his present proposal a fall in imports of wines from 5¾ million will succeed. It certainly does not gallons to 4¼ million gallons, a quite succeed if the purpose be to siphon off dramatic fall. In spir~ts, the fall has been some consumer expenditure at this level, from 1,146,000 proof gallons to 711,000, because, although it may have some such again an immense fall. It may be true effect, on the one hand, there will be that this is due in substantial part to increased demands, on the other. If it people holding off buying as a result of be the purpose, which I should have re the 15 per cent. surcharge, but it is garded as a proper purpose, to secure equally true that the new charge now the maximum yield for the Treasury, being put on by the Chancellor has led there is no doubt that we have reached to prices which many members of the 1021 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1022 public now find intolerable and are not duce our own beverages, though they willing to pay. have not perhaps such a high alcoholic Evidence on the question of yield is content. not far to seek. The Chancellor will The consumption of whisky was 73 recall that, in 1949, when wine consump per cent. more in 1964 than in 1939. tion was falling badly, Sir Stafford Cripps It is nothing like as great as the amount halved the duty on bulk light lines, and which used to be drunk in the 'twenties, the resultan,t effect was that, over a period and the reason is the heavy rates of of years from 1949 to 1963, consumption taxation imposed by both sides of the increased no less than 13 times ; it went House of Commons over many years. up once almost for every single year, year But no one has previously achieved a by year. The revenue to the Exchequer double tax such as that which hit the increased by over 8 times. Significantly, industry in October and now hits it bottled light wines were not included in again, to such an extent that the retail that reduotion of tax. The result of their price of whisky is now 48s. 6d. a bottle. inclusion in 1960, however, was an I suggest · that if more revenue is increase within three years of 230 per required there, a substantial reduction cent. in the yield of the revenue on light in tax would lead to a very much higher wines. yield o.f revenue. I am sure that there It is impossible to deny that if one takes will oome a time when the Treasury a sensible reduction in taxation one will have to look in that direction in increases consumption and overall order to meet the heavy burdens now revenue. This is a clear, plain case. on the Department. Therefore, if the Chancellor bas imposed Another thing to be considered is the the taxes not to secure a benefit and yidd cost to the wines and spirits trade. Every to the Treasu.ry but for some other time the Government have made these purpose, i.t must be one of two. It must tax changes-it has happened thrice in eiither be to prevent inflation, in which the last year-the result has been to case I say be is wrong because it will cost the trade a fortune. It has had to increase the demand and prices will rise, print new brochures and publicise new or tt is in the pursuit of syphoning off trade rates. On top of that, the trade private purchasing power in order to assist now has to face an additional 33-} per the public sector, a matter about which cent. in the postal charges for sending we complain so bitterly. out the brochures. The last change was made by the Chancellor before Christ Mr. James Tinn (Cleveland): Would mas. All this has led to a great waste not the hon. Gentleman agree that, while in both materials and man power, because a reduction in the tax on wines might everything that was done in November have a beneficial effect on the revenue now has to be done over again. to the Treasury, the increased consump tion would have a harmful effect on the It is a good thing that what is being balance of payments? done now is being done at this time of the year, but, if the Chancellor had in Mr. Rees-Davies : I will deal with tended to do it, it would have been that argument in some detail in a simpler if he had put up this rate of moment. It is a fair ooint to make taxation as well as the import duty last about harm to the balance of payments, November and so saved some of ~he and it ought to be replied to, and I expense. shall deal with it. Mr. John Rankin (Glasgow, Govan): I want to continue my argument on Would not nhe hon. Gentleman agree that the main question of yield and con during the period the retailer of whisky sumption. I deal, first, with whisky. has adapted his measure, which is not I am not a Scot and do not drink defined by Sta.tute, to meet these circum whisky. I have never touched it in my stances and is stiU making a gross profit, life. I know that that is a terrible thing which is quite difficult to define? to admit, but if one is partly Irish and partly Welsh and, in fact, a Man of Mr. Rees-Davies: I would not agree Kent, that is perhaps some excuse for witih uhe last point. Of course, the measures not drinking whisky. In Kent we pro- are changed. If , within a couple of Vol. 712 R4 1023 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Cammi/lee 1024 [MR. REES-DAVIES.] for that purpose port wine is one of her years, the price of whisky rises to such main exports. ao extent as it has done, it becomes like As to the balance of payments, in 1964 the nectar of the gods and one has to our exports to Portugal amounted to £35 pay for and treat it in that vein. But million and our imports from Portugal the gross and net profit margins at the were £25 million. Therefore, an increase moment, in view of the attempt by the in the export of port wine to this country trade for a short period to carry this would still leave us with a very substantial immense and penal taxa-tion, are very favourable balance of trade with Portugal. low. I do not think that they can be ma-intained for ever. lit will be very diffi There is a special case here. This has cult to maintain IJbem as t:hey are in the been recognised in previous years on future. both sides of the House of Commons. Therefore, I would ask the right hon. 4.15 p.rn. Gentleman to look into the port wine I tur.n to what I ,tlhink is the strongest trade and consider whether he cannot of all the cases. I would ask the Chan entirely exempt port, which is a par cellor to be good enough to try to give ticular form of wine, from duty. The this matter separate consideration from result of what has happened is that there the other ma,tters. I refer to the position has already been a marked falling off not of port wine. I was concerned wi,l!h my only in the amount of port being brought hon. Friend the Member for Rye (Mr. into the country, but in its consumption. Bryant Godman Irvine) with the repre Shortly, we shall have to start all over sentations for a reduction in the incidence again on the path of trying to bring of taxation on port wine in 1958 and about an increase in consumption. That 1960. will bring benefit in the way of yield to the Treasury. will also bring benefit I would remind the Committee of the It in another way. L king to future. ludicrous situation in which the Chan oo the cellor found himself in reiation to vhis I would say that one of the nicest drinks trade. In 1939, port wine was sold to if one has a little leisure is port wine. the ex,tent of 3,840,000 gallons. It really helps. It is better to drink port Ten after dinner than brandy. I would years later, in 1949, ,the quantity had fallen to about a third- 1,430,000 add that I like port. I drink it. gallons. Following representations in Mr. Rankin : The hon. Gentleman 1958 and 1960, IJbe duties were about should sell it. halved, to assist port wine-from 50s. to 26s.-and the consumption began to Mr. Rees-Davies : I am trying to sell increase steadily- it i:ncreased by over it. It is a pity that, having gone on many 200,000 gallons. The trade was just deputations over the years, to try to secure getting under way when port wine was a fair opportunity for the trade, I see retaxed. The tax has now gone up to the whole thing reversed this year at one 35s. per gallon, so tibat more than half stroke and all the good undone by this of t•he tax has been reimposed. very silly provision. There were three simple reasons for There is a tax of 35s. a gallon on the lengthy representations which took heavier sherries. The tax before the war place. First, it was thought reasonable was 8s., so the rise has been 4~- times. It that people should be allowed to drink is now about Ss. 6d. a bottle~ There is port wine. It is very widely based. Women great anger and resentment in Spain drink it. People of all classes and all at the retention of the surcharge, just kinds drink it. The consumption had as there is in Portugal and France. Our fallen a great deal. Also, we were deal exports to Spain last year totalled £67 ing with a country of great friendliness million and our imports £60 million, so to our own- Portugal. A large amount this is another case in which we would of British capital has been put into the be entitled to a substantial increase of port wine trade of Portugal, and that sherry and port while still retaining a capital is closely linked with one of our proper balance of trade. It would benefit most friendly allies in E.F.T.A. Por the Treasury and certainly do no harm tugal's trade with us depends upon her to our balance of payments. The figure being able to import goods from us, and of consumption of sherry has shown 1025 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1026 some increase, but I am informed that. and no doubt in what my hon. Friends following this latest tax increase, it will will be saying to draw the Chancellor's show a substantial fall. attention to this matter. Then there is the question of taxation What will be the effect of this addi on beer. We would agree that tea and tional tax on beer? There will be a fresh beer affect every individual in the impetus to rising prices, further wage country. Basically, we are a tea and beer claims and a perfectly natural desire by drinking nation. I am prepared to con the unions to want more, with spiralling cede that a further ld. a pint on beer prices as a result. What has been the plus another ld. resulting from increased position of the beer industry? It has overheads in the past year means a total installed modern bottling methods. It increase of 2d. a pint. I concede that has kept its overheads down by efficiency. this is not yet reaching the law of The total labour force is only 70,000 diminishing returns because, in the main, throughout the country. It is a pity that, beer is a cheap drink. But when the at a time when brewers have managed to Chancellor lifts a pint of beer to his lips keep the labour force at a reasonable he drinks his first half pint as tax. Only figure, overheads down and prices fairly with the other half does he get the reasonable, they find themselves going enjoyment. It is a deplorable picture. " over the top " because of the new tax. It was always considered that the tax Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington): The hon. on beer could not get beyond 8½d., but now we are reaching new and dizzy Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees Davies) was asked wheth would deal heights. The tax has gone up to 9½d. If er he one levies an increase on a man's beer with the balance of payments argument. it is pointless to argue that he will not, He must have something to say on that, in union negotiations, manage to gild for we must recognise that the difference the lily a bit and claim a higher wage between imports and exports from one which will include something to com particular country may not be relevant pensate for the rise in the price of beer. to the question of the balance of pay ments as a whole. The duty on beer has gone up by four times compared with pre-war. It used to Mr. Rees-Davies: I have dealt with the be 2½d. a pint. The actual price of beer, cases of Spain and Portugal. I shall not however, has only gone up by just over go into the general question whether or three times. The price level of beer, not the surcharge is desirable, since that without the heavier tax increases, would. would not be in order. But one is en therefore, be in line with other classes titled to point out, for instance, that of goods. If the price of beer charged by France is the second highest consumer of the brewers had been allowed to rise at whisky in the world and that it is one the same rate as the taxation, the cost thing to have a surcharge for some months would now be Is. lld. a pint instead of to secure a dramatic drop in imports but ls. 7d. quite another to maintain it so long against the French, who largely depend Mr. Rankin: But when a man drinks a upon their exports of wine to us just as pint of beer he knows that he is drinking our exports of whisky to them are so a pint and that the measure is safeguarded important to ns. by Statute. The amount is denoted on the glass. Would not the hon. Gentleman In the case of such imports and exports, agree that the same should prevail with there is a fair balance of trade between spirits instead of leaving the matter to Britain and France in wine and whisky be wangled? just as there is a balance with Spain and Portugal. The fair balance of trade in The Chairman : Order. Whether or not such commodities with these countries the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet should be borne in mind when the Gov (Mr. Rees-Davies) agrees is not in order ernment consider the retention of the in this debate. surcharge which, in my belief, should not Mr. Rees-Davies : I am glad, Dr. King. be held on indefinitely. We shall have to debate the measures Mr. John Hall (Wycombe): Does not on a more suitable occasion. However, my hon. FDiend recall that, after the sur there is enough force in what I am saying charge was imposed, there was a 1027 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1028 [MR. HALL.] the Notice Paper some words which came campaign in France against the drinking directly from those moved by the of whisky in an attempt to stimulate the Opposition last year. I hope that they sale of wine? commend themselves to the Chancellor. Over tihe years I have been embarrassed Mr. Rees-Davies : I am glad that the on some occasions by the support given French are not tempted to resist to me by the then Opposition o·ver the altogether the pleasures of life. If the question of strengthened cider. This is Chancellor continues with this type of an opportunity for them to be able to provision, however, he will be hitting make good some of the intentions which basically many pleasures of life. In they hav,e expressed during that period. practiica,l terms, he will not be getting the T he solution-- yield for the Treasury Malta, Ireland and Switzerland have put where he could raise the money, the up their duties on Scotch whisky. The Chancellor may have felt, because of inevitable result is a rise in price and. the example given to him by earlier probably as a result, a good deal more Chancellors, that it would not do any difficulty in getting exports into those harm to put even more tax on Scotch markets. Switzerland has been over the Whisky. last year or two the most important new Mr. Robert Maxwell (Buckingham): country to which we have been sending Hear, hear. greatly increased amounts of whisky. The real reason that I should like to Mr. Noble : The hon. Gentleman who try to persuade the Chancellor to look is so enthusiastic is probably better able favourably at this particular one of the to pay for it than many. items which we are discussing is that it The point which is significant is that is considerably important to Scotland 11s though exports have been rising very a whole in the employment it gives. A well-I think to the pleasure of the good deal of this employment-as Chancellor ; certainly to the pleasure of Scottish hon. Members know-is in parts his predecessors- and though the home of the country where it is difficult to get market has been rising very slightly, it alternative ways of employing people. I is clear to those of us who know the think first, because they are my particular position in Scotland today that the stocks favourites, of the distilleries which pro of whisky maturing are increasing very duce the malt whiskies. They are almost steeply. There must come a time, if all concentrated in outlying glens of Scot there is any turndown in exports or in land and on the islands. A very small home consumption, when there will distillery in my own constituency was opened recently on Jura. It was the first inevitably be a risk of a very consider industry to come to the island for a able drop in the employment in these distilleries. They go on building century. Although the employment which cannot stocks this case the Chan it offers is small. a very valuable extra up at rate in amount of wages comes in week by cellor changes his mind. week to a small community. Mr. Maxwell: Would the right hon. When one thinks of Glenlivet, Talisker, Member not agree that whisky is not Glanmorangie, Bruichcladdich, and a necessity and that those who do not Laphroaig these names slip off the tongue wish to pay the increased tax need not at least as gently as their products slip buy it or consume it? Would not a down the throats of the tired or the great deal better use of the Committee's thirsty. Although it has not the same time be made if we spent our time on Gaelic sound, there is in the constituency dealing with those items in the Bill of the right hon. Member for Orkney which really matter to the nation? 1045 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1046 Mr. Noble: If the hon. Gentleman wholly unfamiliar to the Chancellor of had taken the trouble to come into the Exchequer, because he used them the Committee more than about ten from this side of the Committee last year. seconds ago I should be more inclined to judge whether or not his contribution Mr. A. E. Cooper (Ilford, South): We was likely to be useful. Whether he have had a number of speeches arguing likes it or not, this is a matter of great the merits of particular drinks and why importance to the country from which they should not be taxed, but I think that I come. we should try to be rather more funda mental and ask ourselves not so much The suggestion which I would make what is the harm which will be done in to the Chancellor, because I do not want parts of the countries and industries to be purely destructive in my criticisms affected by the tax but why the tax is of this part of the Bill, is that I believe, necessary at all. The answer lies clearly if his wish is to do something which in the complete and utter incompetence would give substantial encouragement to of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Scotland and its employment and par the Prime Minister since last October. ticularly to the Highlands-some of his There are the guilty men. colleagues are trying to get the Highland Development Bill through the House at The Temporary Chairman (Sir the moment-that he should at least con Herbert Butcher): Order. The scope for sider seriously the possibility of a debate on this Amendment is limited. differential in the tax on British spirits, Sir Rolf Dudley Williams : On a point and give some preference to Scotch of order. Surely my hon. Friend, in whisky. I think that he could justify drawing attention to the fact that the it on two grounds. The first is, as I reason for these taxes was the question said, that it would be a differential to help the areas which certainly need it. able behaviour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was order. The second is that there is far more skill in in the production of whisky than there The Temporary Chairman : When the is in the production of gin and vodka. hon. Member for 1ilford, South (Mr. It is certainly necessary to mature these Cooper) goes out of order, I will so for a great deal longer before they are inform him. I was giving him warning fit to drink. signals. If my hon. Friend the Member for Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Isle of Thanet would like me to, I Colne): The hon. Member for Ilford, should be only too delighted to offer him South (Mr. Cooper) is saying that the a little eleven-year-old single malt necessity for these taxes lies in the in whisky. Perhaps from that, he would competence of the present Chancellor of acquire a taste for an alternative to the Exchequer. If that is in order, would brandy or port after a good dinner. it be in order for those on this side of the We in Scotland have welcomed, even Committee to say that it was due to the though we do not entirely approve, the incompetence of previous Chancellors of habit which has grown over the world the Exchequer? We could pursue the of drinking Scotch on the rocks. I am debate for a very long time. speaking for a great number of my The Temporary Chairman: I think countrymen when I say that in respect that we should get on with the Amend of this action in the Finance Bill we in ment in Clause 1, page 1, line 16. Scotland think that the Chancellor is doing his best to drive the Scots on to Mr. Cooper: I come back to my pro the rocks. We understand only too well position that we are entitled to discuss that there are very few people in the the proposed taxes on the basis of their country who will want to drink his health necessity and why they have been and that therefore the extra cash will not brought forward at this time. I cannot do them very much harm. But we also believe that I can possibly be out of •appreciate that there are millions of orde·r in developing such an argument. people in the country who will want to Having regard to the speeches over the drown their sorrows in a little Scotch weekend by the Chancellor of the Duchy whisky-and these words will not be of Lancaster and the Chief Secretary, 1047 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1048 [MR. COOPER.] Reading of the Finance Bill? Surely may I put the position on the record and it is not in order to deal with it now? state that these taxes have been im posed to get the Government out of Sir D. Glover : Further to that point the mess into which they got themselves. of order. Surely it must be in order to Let us quote one or two things which deduce reasons to show that if other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite things bad been done these increases may not like. Speaking on 30th Sep would not have been necessary. tember, 1964, at Norwich, just prior to The Temporary Chairman : That may the General Election, the Prime Minister well be, but not on the Question pro said: posing that the subsection should stand "I repeat what I have said tbrough1Jut the part of the Bill. year. I do not believe that we are facmg any danger to sterling, any run on the £, because Mr. Cooper : It is unfortunate that the loan facilities available to us have been right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite increased from the International Monetary Fund, from the United States and from are unwilling to face the facts. We are Europe." fully entitled to discuss why these taxes are being put on at this time. We are The Temporary Chairman : Order. I entitled to an explanation why the un am sorry, but the hon. Member must not fortunate people of this country are to pursue that line of argument. suffer these further imposts. Mr. Cooper : Subsequently the Prime Mr. Sydney Silverman : On a point of Minister went to America and made a order. Is it in order to debate the Second speech drawing attention to the fact that Reading of the Finance Bill all over we have these vast reserves of £11,000 again on each Amendment as it arises, million. If these reserves were available Clause by Clause? lf not, ought we not at the time, why did not the Chan to stop it now? cellor- - The Temporary Chairman: I have The Temporary Chairman : Order. already made my Ruling clear. I should The hon. Member must please relate his be grateful if the hon. Member for Ilford, remarks to the Amendment before the South would debate the Question whetiher Committee. subsection (1) should stand part of the Mr. Cooper : I am delighted to ask Bill. for your guidance, Sir Herbert. Can you Mr. James Dance (Bromsgrove): quote from Erskine May to show that Surely it is i:n order, if the Chancellor I am out of order in discussing the tries to put on this extra taxation, to ask reasons for a particular tax? him why it is necessa-ry? The Temporary Chairman: The hon. The Temporary Chairman : The ques Member must not ask me to quote from tion before tJhe Commtttee is whether Erskine May. He must develop his argu taxation should be imposed on spirits, ment in terms of the Amendment before beer, wine, British wine and tobacco. the Committee and if I think that he is Any arguments indicating tihat those co11: going out of order I must draw the matter to his attention. modities sJiould not be taxed are m order, but it is not in order to have a Mr. Cooper: When the Chancellor genera,l debate on the whole field of opened his Budget in the very first national taxation. sentences he said, " My task this year is to withdraw £250 million from the Mr. Cooper: I base my argument on economy". He proceeded to argue why the point which you have_ just made, it was necessary to do so. In a two Sir Herbert, when you said t!hat any argument was in order which shows that hour speech be went _through the varic:ms items of taxation which we are debatmg nhese items should not be taxed. I sub and which form part of the £250 million mit that the case which I am putting is which he said that he had to withdraw. to show precisely why tlhese taxes should not be imposed. Again I ask for your Mr. Maxwell: On a point of order. guidance and suggest t1hat if I pursue that Did we not deal with this on the Second line of a11gument I am m order. 1049 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commitlee 1050 The Temporary Chairman : The hon. was. Indeed, in Committee on last year's Member must keep his argument w~thin Finance Bill, the present Chancellor the terms of tihe Amendment before the said: Commi~tee, as, indeed, has been done by "The plain truth is that the duty on spirits hon. Members who have already is hlgher today than it bas ever been in the addressed t'he Committee. whole hlstory of these duties. It is a record which I am sure the Government will be Sir Arthur Vere Harvey (Macclesfield): proud to publicise among their records- that they have raised the taxation on spirits to the On a point of order. My hon. Friend highest level ever." the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) referred to nhe Prime Minister's What the Chancellor said before assum visiit to Washington. Smely if he were ing his present office should be digested to refer to the possibility of the Prime as the background to the action he is n.ow Minister drink.i,ng some export whisky taking. Indeed, the right hon. Gentle whilst in Washington he would be in man said last year that the Government order. were making it too expensive to drown our sorrows, and added : The Temporary Chairman: We had "It is an astonishlng thing that while a bottle better see how we get along without of whisky costs 45s. one can buy purple hearts further points of order. in the black market for 6d. a time " .- [OF F ICIAL REPORT, 2nd June 1964; Vol. 695, c. 945-6.J Mr. Cooper: I will content myself at The present Chancellor said that when this stage by saying tha,t had wiser and we were debating drugs last year. If the sounder financial policies beon followed right hon. Gentleman really believed by the OhanceHor and his colleagues the words he was saying then, surely we these taxes would be quite unnecessary. should bear in mind now the compara Further, had-- bility between the high price of spirits and the accessibility and price drugs. The Temporary Chairman : Order. of The hon. Gentleman must assist the Ohair Has not the Chancellor done absolutely by not continuing with that lme of nothing to help the arguments which he argument. adduced last year? I have been impressed with the Mr. Cooper: These taxes which we are remarks that have been made about the now asked to pass simply give a nudge harmful effect of the high prices of to higher prices generally, therefore to spirits, including British wines, on our hi~ er wages and therefore to roaring export trade. [Interruption.] inflation. They will have a serious ultimate effect on our export potential. Mr. Dance: On a point of order. Is it in order for hon. Members opposite 5.30 p.m. to keep up a continuous tirade of inter Mr. Julian Ridsdale (Harwich): I sup ventions from a seated position? port the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. The Temporary Chairman : Order. Rees-Davies) when he so ably moved Hon. Members must not intervene in a the Amendment. Our attention has been sedentary position. drawn 1067 Finance (No . 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1068 [MR. COOKE.] If rthe flow of wines from these foreign of expensive wines against the future. countries is interrupted it could well One will not be able to afford to lay happen 1077 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1078 separates thaJt from Commonwealth or Not only have temptation, hardship and the 2s. 6d. which separates 1t from inconvenience all been increased by the foreign. Surely, the occasion oould have Clause, but even the economic oppor been taken to give a much greater incen tunity of increasing the comparative dis tive to the British producers of alterna advantage of drinking imported as tives to imported wine. opposed to home-produced Uiquor has Again, beer and cider are primarily been thrown away. It has been thrown drunk for purposes of quenching ,thirst away, but one wonders whether it has as well as for enjoyment, and certainly been thrown away consciously or neg the less expensive wines are consumed ligently. Is this a deliberate act of Gov for the same purpose. If, therefore, we ernment policy to reduce the percentage had had not an increase but a reduction difference between home-produced and in beer duty accompanying such increase imported wine, or is it due to negligence? in taxation on wines, however gastro If it is due to negligence, it is, I suppose, nomically undesirable this might be, at in a sense excusable. When, however, least one could make a case for it in one has a document of 226 pages, it terms of the balance of payments ; and in would, I suppose, be uncharitable to the condition ,to which the Government blame the Government for the first have reduced the country one might be couple of hundred omissions of things prepared to make a sacrificial gesture and that they ought to have done or the first sacrifice gastronomic considerations to couple of hundred of mistakes which economic considerations. Indeed, it is they have made in doing things which a sacrifice which, I am sure, all of us they ought not to have done. would be not only ready but willing to Even making allowances for considera make. tions such as that, let us hope that having One has only to look at the Schedules got only to the first Amendment, this is which would be eliminated by this excel not the beginning of a trend which will lent Amendment to realise that this make itsclf even more manifest as the occasion has been allowed to pass by debate continues for so many hours of entirely by ,the Government. Whether so many days and of so many nights. the First Secretary of State noticed this, and, indeed, what his responsibilities in 7.0 p.m. this matter are, none of us knows, but the Mr. Peter Walker (Worcester): I net effect is tha,t the co9t of living index would like, first, to congratulate my hon. has been put up. This is quite unchal Friend the Member for Rye (Mr. Bryant lengeable. Hardship has been inflicted Godman Irvine) on bringing forward ,this on a considerable number of people and Amendment, enabling us to debate this inconvenience on an even greater number. subject. I would like also to express The incentive to smuggl,ing has been in very real sympathy with the Chancellor creased. If anyone thinks that this is a of the Exchequer, because during the purely theoretical considerntJion, I would afternoon he has been under consider point out that some unhappy constituents able attack. There have been many of mine have only recently been released criticisms of the manner in which he has from one of Her Majesty's prisons be conducted his policy and he has been vir cause they found even the previous rates tually without support from his own side of duty so high as to place upon them an the whole afternoon. irresistible temptation to bring into the I would have expected that when their Por,t of Teignmouth contraband of an own Chancellor was under attack intoxicating nature which was innocent hon. Members opposite wolllid have ral of the payment of any British duty. lied round, but there has been not one Therefore, whoo. there is such evidence speech from those benches in support of that otherwise honest people at the pre the Chancellor's proposals and we can vious rates of taxation find this tempta only presume that, on this issue as on tion, which it would be inaccurate to many others, many of the back describe as a new one, irresistible, the benchers on the side opposite are in dis Government's moral guard~ans should agreement with those on the Front consult their consci,emce about whether Bench. What is also noticeable is the any further stress should be placed in such absence of certain Members from the a direction or in such a kind. Front Bench opposite, who, I would Vol. 712 S2 1079 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1080 [MR. WALKER.] because, like most of the points made have thought, would have been here this afternoon, they are very important r throughout the debate. I speak particu ones. larly of the First Secretary of State. The first section of this debate deals This is after all, of all the Clauses in with the problems relating to specific the Finance Bill, the one which has the drinks and I hope that the Chancellor most direct effect upon the Government's will comment upon the point made by my incomes policy. Not oDJly has the First hon. and learned Friend the Member for Secretary been absent throughout the the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) afternoon, but there has not been one about our trade in port. Portugal is a Minister from the Ministry of Economic very important trading country and there Affairs present. I can only presume that is considerable disturbance as far as the such little interest is now taken by the general trade in port is concerned. I hope Government themselves in their own in that some specific comment will be made. comes policy that on a matter such as I also hope the points made by my hon. this they did not consider it of impor Fruends ~he Members for Rye and T iver tance to be in attendance. ton ,~r. Ma:X1well-Hyslop) win be met. There are many other absentees among I am particularly involved in the posi those who spoke last year in a debate tion of perry and cider. It will be on the same Clause, upon the social prob interesting to hear the Chancellor's views lems involved in this particular type of on this topic this year. I hope that he increase in taxation. For example, we will make this concession to this industry. had passionate speeches from the Prime Lord Mitcbison, who was formerly the Minister, from the Chief Secretary, from Member for Kettering, spoke on t!his the Members for Fife, West (Mr. William subject last year. He described it as a Hamilton), Romford (Mr. Ron Fletcher), simple drink. He said : Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), Leek (Mr. " It is good ; indeed, it is excellent. It is Hamld Dav,ies), West Ham, North (Mr. made not entirely of apples, but mainly of Artihur Lewis), Glasgow, Govan (Mr. apples." Rankin), East Stirlingshire (Mr. Wood He went on to say: burn), Rothe1:1ham (Mr. O'MaHey), Bly,th (Mr. Milne), and Middlesbrough, West " . . . the Government have an opportunity to reconsider their proposed increase in respect (Dr. Bray). of a humbler beverage, and to do so in the All of these last year considered it interests of many growers."-[OFFICTAL REPORT, important to put the case against this 2nd June, 1964; Vol. 695, c. 958-9.] particular type of taxation even though Now the Government have an oppor smaller increases than now proposed were tunity to reconsider their proposed involved. Why are they absent? Why increase in respect of the humbler have they not propounded the same argu beverage and to do so in the interests ments to this Chancellor as they did to of the drinkers and the growers. I the last? I ho~ that the Chancellor hope the Chancellor will tell us exactly will give a very full reply to the points what he will do as far as these two drinks which have been made in this short are concerned. I would like to ask the debate in connection with trade, specific Chancellor what information he has drinks and with the Government's in available when he decides to increase comes policy. I must confess I am a little taxes such as these. What information disturbed that during the last four ex has he of declining sales in particular cellent speeches the Chancellor was away types of drinks so that he is not and as far as I can see the Member he hampered by proposing the imposition of left on the bench was taking no notes a tax which will only result in the appli whatsoever. It may be necessary for me cation of the law of diminishing returns? to repeat some of the points that have I would like to know what studies he been made. made as to the difference in the current sales of British wine as opposed to Mr. Callaghan : I have notes. foreign wine, heavy as opposed to light, Mr. Walker: I am relieved to hear and generally to know how he decided that and I hope the Chancellor will study to make this particular schedule of them very carefully before he replies increases. 1081 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 ~AY 1965 Committee 108Z l A very important point in all this is from Scotl~d. I hope th_at ~fter I sit the question of whisky. With a name down he will _make a ~on~nbut1on to the like mine I would appear to have a debate and give us_ his _views ab_out the vested interest in this particular type of problems of the wh!sky mdustry m Sco~ drink. But alas, I do not have one. I land and the particular effects of this do recognise how very important this Clause_ upon. it.. I am_ su!e the whole matter is to the industry in the High- Comrmttee. will hsten with mterest to t~e lands. There will be some disappoint- speech which. the h_on. Gent!eman will ment in the Highlands that their case make upon this particular topic. was almost so completely neglected by I ask the Chancellor what information the representatives of the Liberal Party he has as to the immediate reaction of this afternoon. I believe ~ey now loo_k overseas countries in increasing the duty upon themselves as a kmd of Celtic on whisky after increases here. Has this nationalist party, with most of their been the general pattern in the past, representation coming from that area. because our exports of whisky are being All we had from them was a ca~tious specifically handicapped by this type of reference by the. Leader of the ~1beral provision? Knowing what a very impor ~arty that he did have a constituency tant point it is, I hope that considerable mterest, that there were one or two attention will be given to it by the Chan distilleries in his constituency. cellar, together with the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member Mr. George Y. Mackie (Caithness and for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey). Sutherland): I am waiting for an assurance from the hon. Gentleman that The tourist industry is very important ;his party would repeal the duty on and has doubtless made representations to whisky. the Chancellor on this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield Mr. Walker: I am glad that the hon. specifically dealt with the problem of beer Member has arrived in the House to and the fact that this type of taxation listen to the debate. I did not hear his would have an effect on the incomes party ask for this particular relief earlier policy. this afternoon. If I may say so, all we This brings me to the next section of beard from the Liberal Party was that my remarks, the effects of this taxation it had views, but, as always, we did not on the Government's incomes policy. The gather what its views were. We shall Chancellor of the Exchequer was very be interested to know- there will be an explicit on this subject last year. His opportunity for Liberal Members to words have been quoted back at him, and speak later--exactly what their views are I do not wish to repeat them, but I would on this topic. like him generally to comment on what My right hon. Friend the Member for he said last year about the effect of Argyll (Mr. Noble) weillt into great detail increases such as these, on beer and on ithis problem. He recognised ithe real alcohol, on the cost-of-living index. problems of the Highlands in this matter Last year, he made the staggering and raised the question of the increase point that the content of the Retail Prices in stocks. Has the Chancellor any in Index relating to alcoholic drinks was formation on this? What increase in higher than that for household goods, stocks is taking place at present? higher than that for general miscellaneous Mr. Webster: Is it not regrettable that services and almost as high as that for there is not a single Scottish Minister fuel and light. I must, therefore, ask here to listen to this very important him what has changed bis view from last matter? year. Why has be decided that something which he strongly argued last year to Mr. Walker: It is regrettable, but, of affect the cost-of-living index should be course, it is now becoming to be accepted. used in this year's Budget as a major taxation proposal? Mr. George Lawson (Motherwell) rose- - Some hon. Members opposite have suggested that we should not spend too Mr. Walker: If I may, on behalf of much time discussing this Clause. It is my hon. Friend, I welcome the Member interesting to note that the proposals in Vol. 712 S3 1083 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1084 [MR. WALKER.] tainment to them. Other people, like the this and in Clause 5 are the only things Chief Secretary and the hon. Member which the Chancellor is doing in this £or Bermondsey, gave delightful and Budget this year. All the other proposals, homely descriptions of 1lhe effeots on a which are to take so much of our time specific class .of ,people. later, are general plans for a Socialist economy of the future. The provisions 7.15 p.m. in these two Clauses are the only things The hon. Member for Govan made which the right hon. Gentleman is doing a splendid ,speech saying ,thart it was in terms of his financial policies within an anti-Scottish provision. I am pleased this Budget, and the whole emphasis is on that the Chancellor has brought these indirect taxation and especially on this two provisions into one Clause, be form, which, as he rightly pointed out oause lasrt year the hon. Member last year, has a considerable effect on the for Govan was declared to be ou.t of cost-of-living index. order when these issues were dealt with in separate Clauses, because he said that Will the right hon. Gentleman explain, they were unfair to Scots who, when they particularly in view of the quotation had a glass of beer, followed it by a which he made last year about Mr. "chaser", so that they got caught both Frank Cousins-[HoN . MEMBERS: ways-o nce on the beer and once on the "Order."] No, the quotation mentioned whisky. He was declared to be out of Mr. Frank Cousins, who was not a Mem order because at that time we were dis ber of the House oE Commons at that cussing only beer. This afternoon he time. That is wihy I used that expres could have made a good speech about the sion rather than refer to him by his whole prejudice against the Socts. constituency. The Chancellor then said : "Onl y yesterday Mr. Frank Cousins pointed I remember the Chief Secretary argu out in a speech the difficulty which he and his ing last year that if we had to have this executives will find, because of the increased form of indirect taxation it would be cost of living, in moderating wage claims. Here bertter 10 use mhe regulator, to i.ncrease the Government, as they have done with rents and the general interest rates, are operating the tax rate over the whole sphere and against them. The Government's left hand does not just specialise on these two taxes. not know what its right is doing."- [OFFICIAL The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. REPORT, 2nd June, 1964; Vol. 695, c. 948.] Michael Foot) said how wrong it was What were the views of the Minister for the Government to depend on taxes of Technology yesterday rthis year? on tobacco for their future revenue and What does he think of this increase this that the tax should gradually be year? He can strn refer to it as his execu eliminated. tive, as he is still genera,l secretary of his What has made the Chancellor, who union. In that capacity, does he con has been a long-standing advocate of sider that this will make it more difficult concentrating on direct as opposed to for him and his colleagues on the execu indirect taxation, this year, in his first tive of that union to keep to the Govern major Budget, concentrate so heavily on melllt's incomes policy? this form of taxation? Why has he The Chancellor has to explain why he decided to do something which has favoured this form of taxation more immediately results in an increase in the than any other when it obviously has cost of living? This form of revenue such a direct effect on his incomes policy. now means a tremendous volume of He must go on to explain his justification taxation for ordinary people, for it now in terms of using this type of taxation. amounts to no less than £616,000,000 in Last year there were those who argued a full year, as my hon. Friend the ohat it was wrong to use this type of Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. taxation because it so specifically hit two Eden) pointed out. For every family commodities. The Chancellor himself of four it is now about 15s. a week on last year described the people who went beer and wines and tobacco, and yet along to the local club and who had a it is on this area in respect of the incomes pint of beer at the beginning of the policy and in respect of the effects on evening and two or three pints during the cost-of-living index that the Chan the evening, this being pleasure and enter- cellor has decided to concentrate. 1085 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1086 The best comment on this was made I was about to say that I was very by the Chief Secretary, whom I now wel- flattered to hear all these quotations come to this part of the debate. He from my own speeches of last year. I described a similar provision in the was very conscious last year, when mak Finance Bill last year in these words: ing them, that I might be in this posi " .. . achieves nothing in terms of an incomes tion this year, and my expectations have policy; nothing_ in terms o~ a . regional been wholly fulfilled. That is why I employ_ment policy ; and nothmg m terms took very little part in the Committee of national progress. It merely reveals the f F" • . b Chancellor's desire to have a final •dig, at stage o the mance BIii last year, ut the workers." apparently not little enough. I must in all fairness say that my hon. I used to make speeches such as those Friend the Member for Nottingham, that we have heard from hon. Members South (Mr. William Clark) quickly opposite and I used to listen to the shouted " Nonsense " and the Chief replies of the kind which I have no Secretary went on to reply: doubt I am about to make. I found " The hon. Gentleman will no doubt have them unconvincing then, but I shall an opportunity later to explain why that is find them more convincing tonight when nonsense."-[OFFICIAL REPORT , 7th May, 1964; I make them. Vol. 694, c. 1481 -2.] This year, the Chancellor will have an The plain truth is, of course, that opportunity to explain why that is non there has been a great deal of synthetic sense and I hope that he will now give indignation throughout the debate. Any the Committee a very full explanation. one who has listened knows that there has been no real passion about this Mr. Callaghan : With those last words, and no real depth of feeling. As the I think that I ought to give way to right hon. Member for Orkney and Shet the hon. Member for Nottingham, South land (Mr. Grimond) said, the partners (Mr. William Clark) and to get him to have reversed themselves in the minuet. explain why he thinks that it is a lot of I will try to give some reasons why it nonsense. I have no doubt that he would is necessary to raise this taxation and do it better. I am willing to let him why I have done it in this way. I will have a go if he would like to do so. try to reply to some of the frustrated After about three and a half hours Second Reading speeches we have heard. or more of debate there is no doubt The question asked by some hon. that the last drop of juice has been Members was, basically, why should I squeezed from the grape, the last hop not have found some other form of has been squeezed from the press and taxation? Others asked why I should there is no more malt to be distilled have raised taxes at all. The hon. Mem into the whisky. If I myself have heard ber for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) these quotations once, I have heard them was silent on this point, so we do not half a dozen times. Without offence know the view of the official Opposition to anyone, I hope that we shall get more on it, although I gathered from him, than one brief circulating among hon. from his reference to direct taxation Members opposite if we are to have in an intervention, that I needed to raise many weeks of debate over the next additional taxation. Does he agree with month or so. However, I have no reason me that I needed to raise additional to complain of the quotations from my taxation, or would he h_ave preferred me own speeches-- to find some other form of taxation than Mr. Robert Cooke : I speak from no this one? brief ; I have seen no brief. Mr. Peter Walker : As I explained in The Chief Secretary to the Treasury my earlier speeah, my view is that if the (Mr. John Diamond): That was obvious. right hon. Gentleman had never been Chancellor there would have been no Mr. Callaghan : My hon. Friend says need for tlhis extra taxation. that that was obvious, but I was about to say that the hon. Gentleman made Mr. Callaghan : But I am Chancellor one of the few relevant constituency and the hon. Gentleman has to face the speeches, taking a particular interest situation as he finds it, whether he likes in his wine. it or not, and he is still not answering Vol. 712 S4 1087 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1088 [MR. CALLAGHAN.] the alcoholic strength to a level much my question. I assume that he believes above the normal level of cider. !!hat we should have raised ,the exctra I am glad now to give the hon. Member taxa,tion in other ways. That deserves for Rye my reasons and I am sure that, a reply. after hearing them, he will not. wanit to I took the view that this was the year plllt his case again. It was necessary both in which to do this because of the to proteot ,the Exchequer against the loss increase in direct taxation which took of Brirtish wine duty, because this perry place in t>he autumn. We !have to main and cider was so strong, and 11:ohold a tain a balance in these things. I raised balance as muoh as possible in the fiscal direct taxation in the autumn to pay for treait:melllt of alcoholic beverages. At the the old-age pensions to a very large same itime, it was not ,tihe wish to impose extent, and succeeded in doing so. I duty on ordinary cider, and accordingly therefore thought that this was the year the minimum strength art: whioh rthe arti in wbioh I sihould tum over to indirect ficially strengthened perries or ciders be taxation, t>hus keeping a balance. came dutiable was fixed art: 15 degrees of proof spirirt, which is above the s,treng,th The cost of the Amendment would be that cider or perry made by the simple between £49 million and £52 million and fermentation of apple or pear juice would I regret to say that I cannot advise the normally reach. Ordinary cider has since Committee to accept it on that ground. been made lia ble to Purchase Tax as a Assuming that there is agreement in the soft drink by the right hon. and learned Committee that additional revenue is Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd). needed, ,t:he Amendment would make a But strengtihened cider and perry have substantial hole and I would have to find continued to be classed as Br1tish wine. t:he money from some o~her source. I regret, therefore, that I cannot accept the The inlteresiting ,thing is that most large Amendment. producers of strengthened ciders and perries decided to reduce the strength of I want now to come to detailed points. their products to less rthan 15 degrees of The hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Bryant proof and this removed tJhem from the Godman Irvine) made a speech, as he scope of ,the duty. Thart: was quite legiti has done before, about the possibility of mate. Indeed, it was one of the purposes exempting perry and fortified cider from of the increase. But one manufaoturer bas the duties. I have spoken in t:he past not done so and i,t is his oase thart: the on his behalf. But I must now tell him hon. Member for Rye is quirte properly that, having read and studied the case pllltting. I have seen correspondence in against his proposal, I am fully convinced the past and ,the hon. Member has wriitten of that case and I cannot support him to me about it. any longer. Unfortunately, we have The case basically against the Amend never before bad a Chancellor who ment is -that the objeot of the 1956 pro explained this case. to the Committee. vision was to remove 11:he unfair fiscal That is why I was not convinced before. advantage the cider producers were receiv ~ I never realised what a good case there ing. The Amendment of ,the hon. Mem was against the proposal of the hon. ber for Rye would relieve strengthened Member for Rye. I do now. cider or perry altogether and give their The change was made in 1956 because producers a fiscal advantage over wines of the National Association of British Wine similar strength. This would be unfair Producers represented that British wines and contrary to the intellltions of the 1956 were having to meet increasing and ohange. unfair competition from certain kinds of Mr. Bryant Godman hvine: I am cider and perry, the strength of which obliged to ,the right hon. Gentleman. was well above the normal for such Almhough he may not have appreciated products and which was obtained by the strength of rthe oase against him pre special processes of manufacture and viously, most otiher hon. Members have comparable to the strength of British read precisely these words that he has wine. This higher strength was generally just read last year. obtained by the addition and fermenta tion of sugar in quantities calculated not Mr. Callaghan : I can only congratu to sweeten the product, but to increase lart:e those advising me for giving that 1089 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1090 advice both to me and ,to my predecessor. production exported- the task of all of I think, on reflection, tihat Lord Mitchison us, wherever we sit in this Committee, was going a little too far when he said would be very much easier. The same that no deep principle was involved but thing is true about the trends of con that ithis was just another case of Govern- sumption for both wine and beer. ment stinginess. I would like ito withdraw those remarks. 7.30 p.m. There have been, Sir Samuel, from the Mr. Noble : Having paid that just Chairman, some Rulings concerning tribute to the people who make and ex complaints in this discussion we port whisky, is the right hon. Gentle• that man going to leave the matter, with were not stopping a rise in public expenditure, which would be the alter these people getting hit on the head native. I take it that you would not whatever they do in the same way as allow to go into present and, others who are not achieving this export me that at effort? therefore, I shaU not do so except to say, in passing, that this is a singularly Mr. Callaghan: Although it was inapt remark to make in a year when alleged that I bad done nothing to help I am undertaking to keep down the in exports, regarding the whisky industry I crease in public expenditure tQ 4¼ per can say to the right hon. Gentleman-I cent. I will leave the matter there. have no doubt be will pass it on to his Mr. Peter Walker: Will the right friends-that the export rebate is a con hon. Gentleman give way? siderable help to the whisky industry. The figure of rebate to the industry for 1965 Mr. Callaghan: I do not think so, in respect of exports is expected to be a on that point, because the hon. Gentle little over £1 million. lt may be as much man would be as out of order as I as £1¼ mill,ion. This is a very substantial would be. A great many speeches have help. I hope that the right hon. Gentle been made on the subject and I have man will not say that £1 million is of no confined myself to one question. I think consequence. that we might call i,t a draw. In referring to the speech of the right What the selling industries have to do hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, -indeed, some are already doing it, and I would pay personal tribute to the dis I have no doubt that the whisky manu tillery, the Highland Park, to which he facturers, who are very much alert in the initroduced me on an earlier occasion. I field of exports, are doing it already-is fully appreciate its products and I am to use rebates for the purpose of pro glad to tell him that I examined care mot,ional advertising abroad, to send fully, as did my predecessors, I am sure, representatives abroad and generally to the question of elasticity in the treat step up their efforts. That is what the ment of these products before deciding rebate was intended for and I think that whether to increase the taxation on them. £1 million will be spent in that direction. The hon. Member for Worcester asked I am glad to say to tthe right hon. me particularly about the effect on con Gentleman that the answer to his question sumption. I will gladly give him my in is," No". I am certainly not hitting them formation. Spirit consumption thas on the head, I am doing my best, in the been going up steadily year by year. For circumstances in which we are, to give example, in 1960 iit was 15·3 million a great exporting industry as much help proof gallons and last year :iJt was 18·7 as possible. million proof gallons. There seems to Wine and beer consumption is growing, be a steady increase every year in ex alithough that of wine is much faster. We ports and I am glad to say that they are have heard a lot of Jeremiahs from the keeping up well. other side of the Committee. The con When I saw the whisky distillers sumption of wine is growing fast. We recently, I thanked them on behalf of were told by one hon. Member that con all of us-and I am sure that I speak sumption was going down. The hon. for the committee as a whole-for the Member for Worcester asked whether I great efforts they are making in exports. knew the figures and whether I knew the If more industries could obtain a record difference between the two. I am glad to like that- about 80 per cent. of total tell him that I do. The import of table 1091 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1092 [MR. CALLA GHAN.] much to me about it. I found that they wines has been increasing at the rate of were saying, " Thank you very much for 16 per cent, a year for the last three the increases in pension which we started years, a very considerable increase. The to draw on 27th March". They have import of sparkling wines increased by found it possible to absorb some increase 18 per cent. per year and the sales of here in their increase in pension. There fortified wines have been increasing at the fore, I do not think that the case for rate of 9 per cent. per annum. the pensioners in the past is applicable Despite the increases visited on them on this occasion and in this year. by previous Chancellors the sales of a11 I must ask the Committee to reject these wines have been moving ahead very these Amendments and support the Gov substantially. So far as I can see, there ernment in their endeavour to raise the is no indication of any element of necessary revenue. retaliation. There are others, who, after all, like drinking Scotch whisky whatever Mr. Heath : I had not intended to charge is put on it, and I hope that they intervene in the debate on this Amend will long continue to enjoy it. ment-and I do so now only briefly but there are at least three of the re The same is true of beer. I got out marks which the Chancellor has made two figures while the hon. Gentleman which are so astonishing that I do not was speaking. Five years ago the con believe they should be allowed to pass sumption was 26·2 million barrels. Last without further mention. year, it was 30· 1 million barrels. There again, consumption has gone up, although The Chancellor commenced by saying not so fast as the consumption of wine. that he knew that he was going to get This may be because of a change in caught out by what he said in debates in public taste, I do not know, but con this Committee last year. He admitted sumption of beer has gone up with the this quite frankly. He went much other two ; so although it is quite right further. He said that he had tried to to call attention to the possibility that take as little part in those debates last at some time in the future the taxable year as he could because he realised limits on these beverages may be how difficult it would be for him if he reached, it would be quite untrue to say became Chancellor .the nex,t year. that the position has been reached to T•his is, fi.rst of all, the olearest possicble day. It is not so. Consumption is still indication thart itihe right boo. Gentleman moving up and I have placed my ex did not agree with what ,~be 1!hen Opposi pectations of additional revenue upon the tion drid last year, because he knew i1t was extrapolation of the figures we have had. dishonest. Secondly, he said that even I say to the hon. Gentleman that I wi,~h rthe par-t which be did take he knew do not take a figure in the dark or stab that he wou;Jd get caught out on the argu a pin in it. We look carefully at the ments about policies which he wou,Jd not possible effect of increases of duty on be able 1:0 carry out in practice. Has the industries. I had the advantage of ever a Ohance.llor oome to the Govern seeing the whisky manufacturers and dis ment Dispatoh Box and said wit!h such cussing these matters with them, and olarity, 'lucidity and absolUJte frankness reading representations made by the exactly how his policy has been spoken brewers and those concerned with wine. witih two voices? Never before have I I am afraid, therefore, that I must reject heard -irtsaid at faait Dispatch Box in tihis the Amendment. way. The revenue is needed. It is needed The rig;hit hon. Gen1'leman went on to to lessen the pressure of demand. I say ithat itihere was not depth of feeling believe that the duty is beginning to have in Obis debate. My rigiht hon. and hon. that effect, although when I go, as I Friends have been poinbing out, fairly, did last weekend, to some of the clubs ohe consequence of 1095 Finance (No. 2) Bi/1- 17 MAY 1965 Committee I 1096 [MR. HEATH.] all the time that he would have to pur ' People outside do not understand this sue the same policies when he was in r attitude in the least-- power, if he got in. We shall never find the answer to our economic problems Mr. Callaghan: Is the right hon. which have faced every Government and Gentleman supporting the Amendment? every Chancellor since 1945 until the Mr. Heath: We did not support it last party opposite stops trying to make poli year, but the Chancellor did. Now he tical capital out of economic actions and comes along as Chancellor of the Ex treats the matter seriously so that the chequer and says, am reading out people of this country can understand "I what it is about. what is in front of me and therefore these are the reasons for rejecting the Amend This is absolutely fundamental to ment." That is not good enough for the everything which we do in economic general working of the Parliamentary affairs. I hope, now that the Chancellor system. This is a fundamental point. We has frankly confessed his soul, that in expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer future he will adopt this attitude on pub in discussion on future Amendments at lic platforms as well as in the House. least to be straight with us in explain ing why he has changed his views. He Mr. Callaghan : I do not think that I has not explained why. He just read it should complain about the speech of the out. right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath). The one who should complain Mr. Wilkins: The right hon. Member is the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. is reading something out. Peter Walker). He has been hoiked down to the Front Bench and given the oppor Mr. Heath : The hon. Member will not tunity of winding up the debate and then. find any brief here. This is all written when he has made his speech, he finds out-- that bis right hon. Friend cannot contain Mr. Wilkins : I only meant that this is himself and bas to speak. I am very a very well-noted speech that the right sorry for him. I would say to the right hon. Gen~leman did not intend to make. hon. Member for Bexley that if he is going to lead a team it is not a bad idea Mr. Heath : I do not wish to claim to let them get on with their own work any undue modesty, but my hon. Friends from time to time. saw me writing while the Chancellor was As for his other supercilious comments speaking-- about Nuffield, I am surprised that he Sir D. Glover: On a point of order. I should say that, because he has recently saw my right hon. Friend make these accepted an invitation from that college notes while the debate was going on. He to become a visiting Fellow. He shares had blank sheets when he started. their hospitality with me and I hope that he will not sneer at them. He was ob Mr. Wilkins : That is not the point. viously allowed to go as wide as he did in He said that he did not intend to make a his general comments, but, having sat speech. and listened to the debate, I find it Mr. Heath : It was only when I heard extremely odd to hear him talking about the Chancellor's opening words that 1 political speeches being made about began to make notes. I started with a economic problems, because what we tabula rasa and I have finished with a have heard this afternoon, as I have said, tabula rosa. is a whole series of frustrated Second Reading speeches which should properly 7.45 p.m. have been made on the Finance Bill. He My final point is that, carrying this has added to them himself. one stage further, I put it to the Chan What we are discussing-I do not tbjnk cellor that he and his party achieved that the right hon. Member mentioned it ·success in the General Election in Octo - is the duty on wines, spirits and beer. ber by a very narrow majority very I did not bear any of these three words 1argely on his criticism of economic pOlli cross his lips, so busy was he trying to cies, which he termed " stop-go ". He make an economic case out of a political has admitted this afternoon that he knew matter- - .?, ~ 1097 Fina~ce (No. 2) Bil/- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1098 Mr. Ridsdale rose-- If we are to run it differently, we shall do Mr. Callaghan : I am dealing with him, so-- not you. The Deputy-Chairman : Order. I ,think that the right hon. Gentleman is getting Hon. Members : Order. very far from the Amendment which we Mr. Callaghan : You know that I do are discussing. not mean you, Sir Samuel. I can only Mr. Callaghan : I entirely agree. I deal with one at a time. have made the point and I leave at that, If we are to run this Finance Bill in because I take it that we are going to a reasonable way, I hope that the right pursue these matters in the way we have hon. Gentleman will accept the normal in the past. I hope that we can come convention that when there have been to a conclusion on the first Amendment, two speeches from the Front Bench, at on which we have now spent four hours. least as far as the Front Benches are Mr. Heath: To make this clear, so concerned, we should then vote. [HON. that there is no misunderstanding during MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] I have sat the weary days and nights of discussion through proceedings on Finance Bills for which lie before us, I must say that I many years and hon. Gentlemen cannot cannot possibly accept the Chancellor's shout me down on this. There is a well suggestion that there is a convention that known convention that, although no a member of the Opposition-either from Front Bench can control the back the Front Bench or the back benches bencbers,· at least they can control them having moved the Amendment, nobody selves. The generally accepted convention follows the Government Front Bench for many years has been that, once a if dissatisfied with the reply. In my speech bas been made from the Front experience, including four years as Chief Bench and a speech has been made from Whip, it has almost always been the the other side, as far as the Front Benches case that when an Amendment is moved are concerned we should vote. from this side of the House this side of When the right hon. Member for the House follows the Government Bexley reflects on this, he will see that spokesman. In fact, if the right hon. we shall get into a lot of difficulty unless Gentleman will refer to the debate on we accept the normal convention which this Amendment last year he will find has operated in the past in the House. I that Lord Mitchison, then the hon. and do not believe that he intends to depart learned Member for Kettering, spoke from it. Therefore, I hope that we can both before the speech of my right hon. now proceed-I see that the right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Thames (Mr. Boyd Carpenter) and again Geoffrey Lloyd) is aching to get to his afterwards. feet. There are lots of other Amendments on which be can display his eloquence. Mr. Ridsdale : I must stress how disappointed I am that the Chancellor Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd (Sutton Coldfield) : did not deal with the effect of his tax As the right hon. Gentleman bas referred increases on wages, particularly when to me, I must repudiate this idea of a he has the Minister of Technology sitting convention that it is not possible for a on the Front Bench and particularly in Front Bench speaker to reply when be is view of all the remarks which he made dissatisfied with a Government statement. last year about-- Mr. Callaghan : I sat for 13 years and The Deputy-Chairman : Order. I do have often been dissatisfied, but because not think that that comes within the some conclusions bad to be reached I Amendment. contained my dissatisfaction. The right Amendment negatived. hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield was missing from the active affairs of the Mr. John Farr (Harborough) : I beg House for years before last October. He to move, Amendment No. 3, in page 2, bas now been rejuvenated and come back line 8, at the end to insert: : again. I am sure that we shall have "but the rates of duties of customs and excise on tobacco manufa ctured , or intended for many speeches from him. In the years manufacture as pipe tobacco, shall remain of his absence, that is the way we ran it. unchanged." 1099 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commillee 1100 [MR. FARR.] attention to the very great increase that had taken place in the death rate from lung Unlike the last Amendment, this is a cancer over the previous 25 years. Since new Amendment. The last Amendment that time the death rate has continued to rise has appeared in one form or another in and in 1955 it reached a level more than Finance Bill debates for quite a number double that recorded only ten years earlier: 388 deaths per million of the population in of years, but I think that my Amend 1955 compared with 188 per million in 1945. ment has not appeared in any guise be Among males the disease is now responsible fore the Committee in recent years. for approximately one in every 18 of all deaths." I was glad to hear the Chancellor say that during the debate he would seize The Report went on to say that certain every sensible opportunity to improve the comments could be made on these Bill, and I suggest that this is one of the statistics-comments which were in rare opportunities which he may seize to cluded in the opening remarks of the do something new, refreshing and sen Report. One of the comments which the sible for a change. I am not appealing authorities who drew up the Repovt were against the incidence of Tobacco Duty unanimous in putting forward was that generally. Every hon. Member realises the trend over the last few years indi that every Chancellor, and certainly cated that the incidence had not reached every Socialist Chancellor, must have a its peak. ready method of raising revenue. For La1ter in the Report-I will not trouble years revenue has been readily raised by the Committee with this-'1:here is a refer increasing the duty on tobacco and drink. ence to official inquiries which have taken place in the United States, Finland, I am asking the Chancellor to adopt a Germany, Holland, Norway, and Switzer sensible new innovation. For years the land, as well as in the United Kingdom, standard formula of Chancellors when in all of which agree that 1here is more lung fiscal trouble has been " A penny on the cancer occurring in smokers than in non pint and 6d. on cigarettes". A Id. on smokers. a pint of beer includes, in this Bill, the whole range of alcoholic beverage, with Two very far-reaching, significant and an increased duty, and 6d. on cigarettes detailed inquiries rela,ting to this matter, includes the whole range of tobacco both in the United States and in the goods, including pipe tobacco, cigars and United Kingdom, indicart:ed that lung cigarettes cancer was more liable to occur in those who smoked cigarettes than in those who I am asking him to adopt a more indulged in pipe tobacco. One of the sophisticated approach by putting his conclusions in this Report on Tobacco duty, if he needs money, only on Smoking and Cancer of the Lung, pro cigarettes and cigars and not on pipe duced by the Medical Research Council, tobacco. It would be right, perhaps, if is that a higher mortality has been noticed I here declared an interest, although I in cigarette smokers than in pipe suppose that very few hon. Members who smokers. A further point which has took part in the debate on the last been noticed is a higher mortality in Amendment have not an interest in the smokers than in non-smokers. Ln addi general imposition of duties on wines. tion, there is a higher mortali,ty in heavy I move my Amendment, however, smokers 1han in lighter smokers. entirely medical grounds. on But it is particularly the first conclu May I draw attention to a statement sion of the Report to which I would of the Medical Research Council which draw attention-that a higher mortality appeared in both the British Medical existed in cigaretrt:e smokers than in pipe Journal and the Lancet on 29th June, smokers, and on 1his I am basing my 1957. It starts with the words: appeal to the Chancellor of the Ex "The increase in lung cancer . . ." chequer. It is more or less the 1inch pin Perhaps I may read some words which of my case. are extremely relevant to the argument I have, however, further documentary which I am addressing to the Com evidence of a substantial na,ture to which mittee: I will briefly refer showing that lung " The increase in lung cancer. In their cancer and many other diseases are more Council Report for 1948-50 the Council drew likely to occur in those who smoke 1101 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1102 cigarettes than in those who smoke other tobacco and alcohol are ready victims for forms of tobacco. Tbiis conclusion is him to milk when necessary. However, also supported by a report which I have I urge him to abandon the ham-fisted in my hand of the Royal College of approach which bas become a habit Physicians, published in 1962. There among, I regret to say, successive Chan is a good deal of evidence in this Report cellors of both parties and to take an showing that many of the diseas•es and enlightened step forward. He should not illnesses in this country are more preva whiltewash :the lot, so to speak, bu.t ,t:,ake lent among those who smoke cigarettes an enlightened alternative which all heavily, or who smoke them at all, than public and medical evidence endorses. in those who do not smoke. This Report I believe that the right hon. Gentleman of the Royal College of Physicians rather is enlightened enough to mark my con sensibly produced four or five courses of cluding words. In our debate on the action which it would recommend any previous Amendment a great deal was Government to take. One significant said about the old-age pensioner. I am recommerndation was that the Govern sure that the Chancellor realises tha,t in ment s-bould increase the tax on cigarettes Britain the pensioner has an important and adjust the tax on pipe and cigar role to play. However, in nine cases out tobaccos. of 10 the pensioner has a pipe in ibis mouth. I urge the right hon. Gentle 8.0 p.m. man, in an enlightened and forward The ·third piece of medical evidence I looking manner, to do somet,b.ing to make wish to submit comes from a report pub it easier for the pensioner to enjoy bis lished by the United States Department tobacco and, I hope, thereby live a year of Health, Education and Welfare. or two longer. Entitled, " The Risk of Developing Cancer", it stated that the risk of de Mr. Raymond Gower (Barry) : I hope veloping cancer of the lungs for cigar that the Chancellor feels that my hon. and pipe smokers, llhe combined group, Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. was greater than for non-smokers, but Farr) presented bis case not only in a much less than for cigarette smokers. A persuasive but in an extremely moderate section of the report dealing solely with way. I hope, too, that he feels that there pipe smoking stated that it was found is a great deal of substance in what my that even for men smoking 10 or more hon. Fr.iend said. pipefuls a day and men who bad been All the evidence suggests, as my hon. smoking pipes for more than 30 years the Friend pointed out, that the habit of risk of death from lung cancer was little, cigarette smoking is dangerous in many if at all, higher than the risk for non ways, not only because of the risk of smokers. lung cancer. It is more dangerous to That concludes the outline of the health than other forms of smoking. The medk al evidence whiob I have assembled. history of tobacco taxation shows that in I hope that the Chancellor will agree that creases in the duty do very little, if any the cost of making llhis concession, in thing, to deter the cigarette smoker. In monetary terms, would be relatively other words, when there is a general in insignificant. I urge him, realising that crease there is a period of a few weeks be needs to ra,ise money from somewhere, during which a number of people give up to increase the duty on other forms of the habit, but they are quickly replaced tobacco if he must but, just this once, by youngsters who become regular to give it a try, based on the medical smokers and by people taking up the evidence, and exempt pipe tobacco from habit once again. Indeed, over the years the increase. He could try it th.is once the sales of cigarettes have continued to to see if such a step would be beneficial rise at a high rate, with all the dangers to !Jhe health of ,the nation, perhaps by that my hon. Friend pointed out. encouraging those who must have some We also have a considerable amount form of tobacco solace to swing from of evidence to show that appeals to cigar cigarettes to pipes. This bas been dooe ette smokers- even propaganda and ad in other countries rece,ntly with success. advertiseroent s- telling them of the I appreciate that the right hon. Gentle dangers of cigarette smoking have man needs to raise revenue and that proved ineffective. We see, therefore, that 1103 Finance (No. 2) Bi/l- 17 MAY 1965 Commillee 1104 [MR. GOWER.] Mr. Ridsdale: Of all the reforms not only should cigarette smokers be about which the Chancellor has talked, warned and helped but that they should the one essential thing that he bas not be given positive inducement to change done has been to broaden the basis of their smoking habits; and such induce consumer taxation or make economies ment is contained in the Amendment. I in Government spending. The result wou.Jd have been pleased had my hon. is that the increased duty on tobacco Friend included cigars for exemption. must bear heavily on those least able ~ to pay it. This was recognised by the Mr. Robert Cooke : My hon. Friend previous Labour Government, which the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) provided tokens to lessen the impact of did not, in fact, exclude them from the !the duty on old-age pensioners and exemption about which he was speaking. people with minimum means, who were thus able to continue with something Mr. Gower: Nevertheless, I would have they would not have been able to do. I preferred my hon. Friend to have treated cigars as he has pipe tobacco, because Do the Government intend to bring ~ the evidence shows that cigar smoking in such a scheme now, especially in I is much less dangerous than cigarette view of the difficulties of the non smoking. contributory pensioners? Will the Chan cellor of the Exchequer tell us why he Mr. Webster: Is not this rather like is not able to help this special section the question, "How fat is a fat man? ". of the community by some sort of tax Would it not be difficult to define such remisston, even though he may not be ~ things as the length of a cigar, remem able to go as far as the Amendment t bering that there are many types and suggests? No tax bears so heavily on lengths of cigars? Would that not lead those least able to afford it as does us on to arguing about the lengths of this one. various types of cigarettes and which I have looked up some examples, and shouJd and should not be exempt? can find none better than that provided Mr. Gower : My knowledge of the in last year's debate on the Finance length of cigar,s cannot be compared with Bill by one who is now a fellow Minister that of my hon. Friend. I merely say of the Chancellor at the Treasury. In that the available evidence indicates that that debate the hon. Member spoke very cigar smoking, like pipe smoking, is far eloquently of the need to help those less dangerous than cigarette smoking, least able to afford this duty, yet, once and I would, therefore, have liked cigars again, we have the hardness and the to have been treated in the same way as hypocrisy of some hon. Members com pipe tobacco. However, that can be done ing out and working against those whom in the future. My hon. Friend has sug last year they were seeking so very gested a most valuable start in this dis eloquently to help. criminate, selective form of taxing tobacco. That eloquent spokesman last year I know of instances on the Continent said that an average family of two adults where this method has been successful. and two children and an income of There are a number of countries where between £1,750 and £2,000 a year, paid the tax is not all at the same level. about 2 per cent. of their spendable income on Tobacco Duty. He said that I therefore hope that the right hon. a similar family with in inoome of Gentleman will feel that here he has between £11 and £13 a week paid not 2 an opportunity to do something of tre per cent. but 5½ per cent. of their spend mendous value in terms of a Finance able income on the duty. The burden on Bill. He can help his right hon. Friend that family was three times as heavy the Minister of Health in his very diffi as that on the first. He also gave the cult campaign against cigarette smoking. example of the old oouple with an I strongly support the Amendment. I income of between £4 and £11 a week hope that it will be supported on both who, between them, spent between sides of the Committee, and I hope that 6 per cent. and 7 per cent. of the Chancellor will have little hesitation their spendable income, not on the in accepting it. tobacco but on the duty on the 1105 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1106 tobacco. That represented a very big The incidence of lung cancer has proportion of their income-but the increased very rapidly during that swing Chancellor of the Exchequer has turned from the pipe to the cigarette. Many of the screw even tighter this year. us require tobacco to release us from nervous tension. It has been said by 8.15 p.m. responsible Ministers on both sides of the The right hon. Member for Sowerby House thait in time of tension some-thing (Mr. Houghton), the Chancellor of the is needed to help relaxation. If one Duchy of Lancaster, supported by the accepts the assumption that people will present Chancellor of the Exchequer and smoke in any case, surely something a number of hon. Members opposite, should be done to give a concession that moved an Amendment to the Finance Bill will swing them from the cigarette to the of 1960 to exclude this class of people pipe. from payment of the Tobacco Duty. He I sympathise with what was said by was supported by the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Barry many hon. Members opposite with very (Mr. Gower) about cigars, because re eloquent speeches, but the first thing they ports on lung cancer have stated that it now do is to put this burden on this is safer to smoke cigars or pipes than it section of the community. is to smoke cigarettes. The difficulty In the debate on the previous Amend about including cigars would be in ment today the Chancellor of the distinguishing between the cigar and the Exchequer said that pensioners this year cheroot, or the cigar and the Manikin, had had a pension increase which would or the cigar and any other thing help them pay for the increases on beer there is also, of course, the Corona and other items, but I would remind him Corona. We would need a very com that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor plicated schedule. 1 of the Duchy of Lancaster said, in 1960: "I hope it will not be said that, although Mr. Gower : It may be that my hon. there is an increase in the Tobacco Duty Friend is absolutely correct, but I affecting old-age pensioners this year, reliefs assume from the cheapness of cigars in were given to them last year . .. which offset Holland that they must carry much less the addition which they will have to pay for duty than cigarettes do there. I sure their tobacco and cigarettes."- [OFFICIAL am REPOR T, 18th May, 1960; Vol. 623, c. 1363.] my hon. Friend, who has been in that country, has noted how very cheap cigars I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not use that argument are in Holland. tonight, but will tell us why it is not Mr. Webster: I was there a fortnight possible to remtroduce ltihe ooken soheme. ago and I do not wish to detain the I hope that he will tell us why he has Committee by talking about what I was a1te,red his opinion and now believes that doing there. an increased burden should be put on these people because, without an adequate A pipe, although it may be a filthy explanation, such an action will be not thing after a time if it is not kept only taken as hypocritical, but mean as properly, has some effect in condensing well. nicotine and various carcinogenic by products of tobacco when the smoke Mr. Webster: I have pleasure in sup travels from the burning bowl to the porting my hon. Friend the Member for mouthpiece. I have noticed that several Harborough (Mr. Farr), who will have Ministers of the Crown- the Minister of earned the gratitude of all pipe smokers. State, Board of Trade, for example There is something about tobacco right sport ingenious devices with metal con down its history s,ince it was brought here densers. That is either for the purpose from North America and described by of making the pipe whistle in the wind that Scottish King, James I, as a" noxious or to condense the nicotine in the tube weed ", that has got at the Puritan in all and cool the smoke. The hon. Gentle our souls. There has been a movement man is not present now, but I would not in the cuSJtoms of the people away from expect him to be so while we are dis smoking pipes-w hich often had to be cussing this subject. smoked up chimneys--10 a stage at which I expect that the Chancellor, like other people smoke their cigarelltes in public. Chancellors, will say that the problem is 1107 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Cammi/lee 1108 [MR. WEBSTER.] -one of their very few enjoyments that people would abuse this concession from a pipeful of tobacco, I cannot sup by using pipe tobacco to roll their own port an Amendment which discriminates cigarettes. The number of people who in this way. roll their own may amount to a few Much play has been made about the thousand, but as a total percentage of effects of pipe-smoking and cigar-smoking the cigarette-smoking population it on lung cancer. We have had a number would be remarkably small. Any of learned reports on the subject, but I amount of revenue lost in that way suggest that they are often contradictory should be borne in mind and accepted, and there is not yet enough conclusive but if we can swing people away from evidence to back the sort of case which the habit of smoking tobacco direct in my hon. Friend made. At least it is the mouth to smoking tobacco through a disputed point among the scientific a mouthpiece, we should do so. Many experts. pipes are today fitted with ingenious There is discrimination in advertising types of filters. This is most helpful in on television. This nanny of a Govern cutting out the carcinogenic content ment have out a final ban on the advertis which goes into the mouth. ing of tobacco on television, but before I have noticed that the Postmaster the ban wasi proposed there/ wa~ a General is preventing the advertisement difference. Cigarette advertising was of cigarettes on television, but that in postponed to a particular part of the his election address that he was pictured evening, whereas pipe tobacco was sporting a pipe. I have also noticed advertised earlier. My view is that there that in society the pipe-smoker is most was a great deal too much tobacco vilely discriminated against. If one goes advertising, although I would not have to an important dinner, and smokes a discriminated against ,it as this Govern pipe, one becomes non persona grata. ment have done for people can make up If one goes into an aeroplane and their own minds. smokes a pipe it is not approved of. If If this Amendment were carried it one goes to a theatre and smokes a would have far-reaching social conse pipe there are loud shouts of dis quences of which surely my hon. Friend approval. We have a Prime Minister has not thought. He said that it would who not only cleans his own shoes, but drive people away from smoking also smokes a pipe, so we might expect cigarettes to the smoking of pipes. That a concession from the Chancellor in is all very well for men. I suppose men accepting this proposal. would go back to Victorian and Edwardian habits, every man would be Mr. Robert Cooke: I am sorry to smoking a pipe, wearing a long beard and oppose my hon. Friend the Member for a tall silk hat as they used to do in this Harborough (Mr. Farr) on this Amend House, but what about the women? Are ment. He is always delightful company, we to drive women ·into smoking pipes but sometimes I have had to forgo his instead of cigarettes? [HoN. MEMBERS: company because of a particularly foul "Why not?"] I ask hon. Members who pipe. I also dissent from my hon. Friend say, " Why not?" to reflect and consider the Member for Weston-super-Mare how inelegant that would be. (Mr. Webster). Mr. Farr: If my hon. Friend inquired Having made what the Chancellor des of women folk be would find that a cribed as the best constituency speech on woman would far rather have a husband the last Amendment, about wine, I might around alive and kicking smoking a pipe be considered as making not so good a than have no husband at all. speech on this subject because Bristol is a headquarters of the tobacco industry. Mr. Cooke: I should hesitate to ask I must oppose my hon. Friend the my hon. Friend's wife what she thinks of Member Harborough because I think his his pipe. I should refrain from doing so proposal is discriminatory. Although he for fear of causing trouble. The idea of seeks to help a group of people, and my large numbers of women smoking a pipe hon. Friend the Member for Harwich is absolUJtely abhorrenit 10 ,the Committee. (Mr. Ridsdale) made a good point about My hon. Friend the Member for old people who get a particular enjoyment Weston-super-Mare made a good point 1109 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1110 on rthe subject of evasion. Tihe Chan back-fire on those very people. This is oellor muS!t be extraordinarily worried at what my hon. Friend has not realised. the pros,pect of having discrimination in If this concession led to a wholesale favour of pipe ,tobacco so thait: one could evasion of duty and the loss of revenue buy ,the situff and roll one's own cigarettes. from Tobacco Duty, what would be the There would be an intense advertising Chancellor's reaction? He might try campaign to increase, "Roll your own". to increase the Tobacco Duty, which One could buy tobacco in bulk and ,have might result in the law of diminishing a machine in which irt:was rolled and then returns playing s part. might find distribute aigarettes to one's friends. lit it He that it was a wasting revenue. Even if would be illegal to do iit as a business and to sell to one's friends, but I am he did not find that, he might have sure rt!he licensing system would break to have resort to other means of raising down. revenue. My hon. Friend said that tobacco is fair game and is one of the Mr. Farr indicated dissent. ways in which the Chancellor can get some ready money easily. If the Chan Mr. Cooke: My hon. F riend shakes his cellor found that money was not coming head, brut thait is because he has not a very easily by this means, he might devious mind like some people have. cast his eye on other methods of taxa tion. Mr. Farr: I hes~talte to interrupt my hon. Friend agarin, but I wish to poin,t out For that reason, if for that reason that in some countries where this con only, although my hon. Friends have cession is made it is limited Ito pipe made out a very strong case according tobacco in flake form. I defy even my to the evidence they have produced, I hon. Friend wiJth his ingenuity to get a take the view that this concession might piece of tobacco in flake form into a be of temporary benefit to those who cigarette. definitely need help and might in the long run merely cause the Chancellor 8.30 p.m. to cast his net over a wider field, and Mr. Cooke : I do not know if I would I could not support any proposal which be out of order if I pursued this in would encourage him to do that. detail. Having visited the faotories of the British American Tobacco Company and Mr. William Shepherd (Cheadle): l the Imperial Tobacco Company in R ich support the Amendment. Although it mond, Virginia, and seen a good deal of is not true that we can assent to the tobacco production of one kind and statement made by my hon. Friend for another, I can assure my hon. Friend rt:hat Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster) that a very passable cigarette could be made we know what the carcinogenic sub by some ingenious process even ou,t of stances in tobacco are, I nevertheless the sol.'1: of tobacco- I nearly said hope that we shall not follow the line " muck "-whioh my hori. Friend smokes. taken by my hon. Friend the Member I am sure thait: the tobacco is of very fine for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) quality. l,t is only thait: it gives a very and take the view that there is any foul impression when it is being digested real practical doubt as to the evil effects or ingested, or whatever it is that happens on health of cigarette smoking. This in tihat machine of his. suggestion does a grave disservice to I am sure ,that my hon. Friend wa.s the health of the nation. I hope that well-meaning in proposing 11:he Amend even those who represent tobacco manu ment. If it is carried, we shall have a facturing cities will refrain from doing ahaotic s,taite of affairs. I doubt whether such a disservice to their fellow men. it will achieve the objeot my hon. Friend maintains it will have. For a time it might Mr. Robert Cooke: My hon. Friend help those who, heaven knows, need help has leaped to the conclusion that I ing in ,these days of increased prices and said that smoking was not injurious to discrimination against the needy. The health. I said nothing of the kind. I present Government's policies hit those merely said that my hon. F riend the sections of the communirty far more t!han Member for H arborough (Mr. Farr) was they hit any other section of the com perhaps in error in thinking that there munity. However, in ,the end it might was such a great distinction between 1115 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commillee 1116 [MR. ENGLISH .] morning and said that his right hon. practicable. The Amendment is probably Friend the Minister of Health had con impracticable, for the reason that there vinced us that we must give up tobacco are all sorts of pipe tobaccos which could smoking. His revenue would be down to conceivably be used for making cigarettes, the tune of about £1,000 million a year. though they might not be palatable to I do not know quite what he would do. present tastes. But the hon. Member for But, of course, this is what the Govern Harborough also pointed out that in ment should be hoping for if they really other countries similar fiscal incentives believe that there is a great danger to are given for pipe tobaccos in flake form. health in smoking. The principle behind the Amendment should be considered by the Government There is danger to health in most of and possibly later they could move our activities in life. We had a debate an Amendment putting the matter earlier this evening about alcoholic drinks. in a legitimate form so that there could I am sure that alcoholic drinks do not be little evasion. do us any particular good, but they help us to keep going. I am sure that they It is for these reasons that I would help the Chancellor of the Exchequer to support the Amendment to the degree I keep going late at night during a long have stated. debate on the Finance Bill. Many things 8.45 p.m. are a danger, or not very good for health, Sir D. Glover : This is one of the but, now that tobacco smoking has, I Amendmelllts which I should not support think, been shown to be dangerous, I should thank any Government who made because I do not think ,1Jbat it is correctly drawn, but I am sure that all hon. Mem it more difficult or more unpleasant for bers understand and have a greart: deal of me to continue my evil and health-de sympathy for the motive of my hon. stroying habit. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. The Chancellor should, I suggest, Farr) in putting it before the Commiittee. seriously think about this matter. I The whole business of tobacco smoking realise that he cannot do something is really one of the most illogical habits dramatic at once, because of the burden that the human race has ever become it would put on the revenue, but he ought addicted to. Why millions of people all to begin thinking of ways to offer an over the world-I am one of them advantage to people who smoke pipe should buy something simply in order to tobacco, if the medical profession thinks send it up in smoke and, not to be satis that is less injurious to health, or, per fied with that, to bold the stuff in their haps, to encourage people to smoke mouths while they send it up in smoke cheroots or cigars if they are less injurious and take the smoke down into their lungs to health. Over 20 years, he could at the same time, I really cannot under balance his revenue none the less, be stand. cause, with a reduced tax, the consump Why Sir Walter Raleigh, or whoever tion of pipe tobacco over the years would it was who first brought the weed to this grow and be would probably draw in part of the world, was so successful, I greater revenue from that source. shall never know. People try to give up In my view, we have reached the point smoking time after time. I give it up for when any Government in power ought to a week and then I start again ; and I ask themselves, " Are we being logical, am sure that this applies to many right are we being honest, in our present policy hon. and hon. Members as it does to the of drawing more and more revenue from great mass of smokers in the country. an activity which we really should dis All Governments, since the medical courage?" They ought to be doing every reports came out, have been quite illogi thing in their power to encourage other cal in their approach to this problem. activities which are not so injurious to One should not forbid tobacco adver health. tising on television and, at the same time, raise the tax and increase the revenue Notice taken that 40 Members were to the Exchequer, although I quite accept not present ; that the Chancellor would be in an awful Committee counted, and, 40 Members predicament if we all woke up tomorrow being present- 1117 Finance (No. 2) Bill - 17 MAY 1965 Commillee 1118 Mr. Peter Walker : We are a11 grateful vision, which according to their own esti to my hon. Friend the Member for Har mates makes very little difference, it borough (Mr. Farr) for tabling the indicates that the only purpose of the Amendment. This has been an interest action was to show hostvlity to commer ing and important debate. I am pleased cial television and not to have any effect that the hon. Member for Nottingham, on the pattern of smoking. West (Mr. English) joined in and made My hon. Friend the Member for Har a very interesting contribution. I hope borough suggested that the Government that the fact that the moment he rose the should concentrate on encouraging pipe Whip wrote down his name will not smoking. I speak with some element of mean that he will be in any way guilt on this topic, being a complete non dissuaded from joining in our debates smoker. I neither help the Chancellor later during the Committee stage. We with his revenue nor, I hope, impair my look forward to hearing similar contri health. However, can the Chancellor tell butions from him on other Amendments. us what the distribution of smoking is This Amendment gives the Govern at present between pipes and cigarettes? ment an opportunity to make clear Would he say whether he considers that exactly what their attitude is on the the suggestion by my hon. Friend is general question of encouraging or dis a possibility? In view of the remarks of couraging various forms of smoking. I my hon. Friend the Member for Barry thought that my hon. Friend made a (Mr. Gower), could he say what it would very good case, upon medical grounds, cost if there was similar discrimination for some form of discrimination. My in favour of cigars? hon. Friends the Members for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) and Ormskirk (Sir My hon. Friend the Member for Har Donald Glover) supported that view, wich (Mr. Ridsdale) made an important whi1le other hon. Members seemed to point about the hardship caused to a favour also including cigars. What is great many old-age pensioners by the interesting is that during the last few increased cost of smoking. I remember months the Government have decided to reading the debates- I was not then a show discrimination in one sphere and Member of Parliament-which took to discourage smoking by limiting the place when the tobacco coupons were advertising on commercial television. I withdrawn in 1957. I should like to clear am not certain what the Government up a little misunderstanding which arose hope to achieve by that. I wonder on 27th April when the Financial Secre whether they genuinely hoped that it tary was answering Questions on this would result in less smoking. topic. In the reply of the hon. and It is interesting to look at the Treasury learned Gentleman there was, I think, estimates of the revenue expected from an implication that the Labour Party this form of taxation. On the basis of opposed the abolition of the coupon the rates of taxation for last year there because we were not at the same time was a Budget estimate of £958 million, increasing pensions. On the contrary, and an out-turn of £982 million, and the we substantially increased them. The estimates before the Budget changes for then Government brought in an increase 1965-66 were virtuahly identical to those of 25 per cent. in pensions when the for 1964-65. Was this to suggest that in coupon was withdrawn. When one the considered view of the Government examines the recent increase in pension the action that they took to restrict ad and the increased tobacco tax one finds vertising on commercial television was that the old-age pensioner who smokes expected to have very little effect on the heavily will be paying an amount per amount of smoking? If the Govern week extra well equivalent to the value ment's view is that for health reasons of the tobacco coupon in terms of the smoking should be discouraged, will they additional taxation that the Chancellor take other measures, and will those is imposing. measures mean that the estimate of the I have only one hostility to the Amend revenue from the tax this year is not ment. It will give pa11ticular assistance lik~ly to be correct? If the only measure to the Prime Minister, and as we are which the Government are taking is to told that the Prime Minister is not to be stop the advertising on commercial tele- inoluded in the discrimination on the 1119 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1120 [MR. WALKER.] should not limit it to flake tobacco. I question of business expenses, I see no immediately sought guidance on that and reason why he should have a particular apparently it does not seem quite as clear favour in this case. as might appear. I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman Mr. Callaghan : This bas been a very asks, and I would not like to brush his interesting debate, and I thank the hon. idea to ooe side. There are, however, I Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) for repeat, certain admmistrative difficulties. the manner in which he moved the Amendment amd I am also grateful for One country where it has been tried the way in which he was supported by, has found it impossible to work in this among others, the hon. Member for Barry way and the Government there have had (Mr. Gower) and the hon. Member for to extend the tax to other forms of Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster). As tobacco. However, I would like to look the hon. Member for Harborough clearly into all these matters, but I cannot say stated, the effect would be to exclude that I can do anything this year. Many pipe tobacco from the increase in the United Kingdom tobacco factories make Tobacco Duty proposed in the Budget. both cigarettes and pipe tobacco and. The hon. Gentleman used, in support at present, there is not the close revenue of this view, medical evidence that I think control which would be necessary if is certainly getting stronger about the segregation bad to be maintained between effect of cigarette smoking upon health. leaf destined for cigarettes and leaf The endorsement last year by the Uniited destined for pipe tobacco. States Surgeon-General of ,the opinion 9.0 p.m. expressed by the Royal College of The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Physicians on the matter is an important Peter Walker) asked whether I could give development. The College said in 1962 a breakdown of the various ways in which thait cigar and pipe smoking could be tobacco is used. I cannot do so as considered less injurious cigarette than between cigarettes d pipes t one smoki;ng. That is a powerful reinforce an bu thing that I find surprising is that rather ment of the case against cigarette smok more tobacco is used for making into ing and we should regard the matter as "roll your own " cigarettes at the serious. Certainly, I do. moment than for pipe smoking. It would However, I have regretfully to say that therefore be necessary to find some way I cannot do anything this year both on if distinguishing between manufactured ground of the duty that I would lose at tobacco according to the use to which it the moment on the ground of sheer prac was to be put. If the " ro11 your own " I tical admim.istraitive difficulty. This may tobacco attracted the lower rate, the only not appeail very much to ithe hon. Mem effect of the Amendment might be to ber for Harborougb, but at the moment encourage the transfer of the making of it would not be possible for me to accept cigarettes from the factory to the home. I the Amendment. There are these practical difficulties The position is that leaf tobacco is sub which have to be looked into. ject to duty at uniform rates, irrespective The question was put by the hon. of the type of tobacco or the purpose for which it is subsequently used. The hon. Member for Worcester and by the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) Cooke) made that point. There is no about tokens for pensioners. I think it difference between tobacco used in the bas been the experience of a11 of us who manufacture of cigarettes and much of saw those tokens in use that, whatever that used in the manufacture of pipe may have been said in the past, they tobacco. did operate very unfairly as between pensioners who smoked and those who If a differential rate of tax on pipe tobacco were introduced, i,t would become did not. I think that was the basic necessary to charge different rates of reason why the last Administration duty on certain types of tobacco leaf, eventua1ly abolished them. I feel that according to whether it was made into to reintroduce a disparity of that sort cigarette or pipe tobacco. The hon. would be likely to cause more a sense of Member for Harborougb asked why we grievance than satisfaction. 1121 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1122 I was interested in the point raised by Gentlemen will not say I have a prejudice the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. against smokers. Everybody recognises William Shepherd) about cheroots and this is a field in which duty is easily supplies to troops. I learned something raised. Successive Chancellors have about cheroots tonight from the hon. found this out and I feel with regret that Member that I did not know before, and I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's I would certainly like to look into that Amendment, although the purpose of it particular point. My hon. Friend the in relation to lessening the health fears Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. which he expressed, is something which English) made one or two points in which I would like to explore during the course he tended to break away from the party of the coming year. line, thereby displaying that indepen Sir D. Glover: I wonder if the Chancel dence which we have all come to asso lor would explore the possibility of any ciate with him. I can assure hon. Mem system of drawback. bers that, despite what the hon. Member for Worcester said, the Whip was not Mr. Gower: The Chancellor has said writing his name down at all. He was he will examine the administrative diffi just urging me to come to a conclusion culties. Will he take note of the fact as quickly as I could. that there appear to be fewer administra We ought not to leave this matter tive difficulties in the case of cheroots, purely on a basis of administrative diffi mentioned by one of my hon. Friends, culties, although I think that they are real and small and large cigars? It seems it and convincing. I do not think that it would be fairly easy for the distinction is possible to say in reply to the hon. to be drawn between cheroots and cigars Member for Worcester what the effect of on the one hand and cigarettes on ~he other. Perhaps he could give an assur the ban on television advertising is likely ance that in looking the position of to be. It is sttll going on. I saw them at last weekend, so it cannot possibly be pi~ tobacco he will also look at that. having an effect by now. I hope it will Mr. Callaghan : There are other diffi have some effect, that was certainly the in culties which I will not go into at the tention, but I can assure him that it was moment. Although I would not rule not dictated by hostility to the television it out, I would not like the hon. Member commercial channel. There is no reason for Barry (Mr. Gower) to think that I why it should be. I hope the hon. Mem was breaking a pledge if I came back and ber wm accept it from me that this was said that it was not possible to do it. a genuine attempt by the Government Amendment negatived. through the Minister of Health to try to lessen this temptation, if that is the right Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill. word, and that there was no other reason. Schedules I to 4 agreed to. Dr. Bennett : May I ask the right hon. Clause 2.- (AMENDMENTS AS TO RELIEF Gentleman who in his Department FROM IMPORT DUTIES.) attempted to evafoate what difference the bann,ing of cigarette adverfising on tele Sir J. Eden : I beg to move Amend vision is likely to produce? ment No. 86, in page 2, line 24, at the end to insert : Mr. Callaghan : The Department has (2) For the purposes of the said section 7 not made any such evaluation, but it has goods used for the building, repairing or made an evaluation on the fall-off in modifying of aircraft shall be deemed to be exported ; but relief under that section granted smoking that may take place as a result by virtue of this subsection shall be subject of the increase in duty, and I have taken to such conditions (in addition to any other that into account in reaching my Budget conditions imposed by that section) as the figures. Commissioners see fit to impose for securing that such goods will be used for such pur Dr. Bennett: A temporary falling off. poses as aforesaid. In this subsection reference to aircraft shall Mr. Callaghan : I do not know whether include reference to airborne vehicles or craft temporary or not. It does not seem to which depend for their functioning on the interposing of compressed and constrained air, be possible to stop people smoking, gas, vapour or fluid bet\veen the underside although I speak with some diffidence on of the vehicle or craft and the surface over this, never having started. I hope hon. which such vehicle or craft intends to operate. -- - --·--~ 1123 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1124 [SIR J. EDEN.] amount of forei~ equipment used in Subsection (1) of this Clause seeks British civil and military aircraft. He to relieve from import duty those goods felt, however, that the amount so involved brought into this country for use in the was not very great. The Minister's exact building or repair of ships. I assume words were: that it is designed specifically to give "I can say, however, that the proportion is assistance to our shipbuilding industry, a small one although the precise figure and, naturally, I do not wish to say any depends in the case of civil aircraft very much on the equipment installed to meet thing against that. The purpose of my individual operators' particular requirements." Amendment is to extend these provisions -[O FFICIAL REPORT , 5th May, 1965 ; Vol 711 , to aircraft and air-cushioned vehicles. C. ] 65.] The Amendment is designed to lead to For the most part, that is so. For the an exploratory debate, because my hon. most part, the imports of foreign equip Friends and I are anxious to have the ment used in British aircraft, civil and position concerning aircraft and related mi.Jitary, although of importance and vehicles completely clarified. As hon. significant in the construction of the air Members on this side of the Committee craft, are comparatively minor items as know, the British aircraft industry has against tihe total cost of the aircraft. taken a considerable knock from the These are such items as nuts, bolts and Government recently. The Labour Party cable connectors. At other times, how has been running it down for some time ever, it must inevitably be the case that and perhaps the country does not fully more complex equipment will occasionally realise the extent to which this industry have to be brought in from outs-ide the has succeeded in serving our best country to be installed in British aircraft. interests. It is universally recognised I am certain that the Government would that our aircraft industry is a key leader not wish unnecessarily to add to the cost at home. It is in the forefront of new of the productions of the British aircraft design and is the first in the application industry. of many advanced techniques. As a The position of the industry is generally result, its products are becoming somewhat complicated. As hon. Members increasingly sophisticated and in air will recognise, it is becoming increasingly craft construction a great deal of use international in nature. More and more is made of a wide variety of complex in the construction of ruiroraft, more than equipment. one country is involved. We heard this afternoon, in a statement by the Secre I say at once that it is not my aim to tary of State for Defence, that new encoura.ge the use of overseas equip military projects are to be embarked ment. This country has first-class upon by this country in conjunction with electronics and supply industries for the the French aircraft industry. aircraft industry as a wihole and it should be and is unnecessary to go overseas for In evidence of the growing international the wide bulk of the whole range of nart:ure of this industry, we already have components used by the aircraft industry. the eXiample of llhe Concord project, For those reasons I am particularly which includes not just equipment from anxious to see, for example. the continua another country, but whole sections of the tion of the flying programme of the aircraft. I am not certain whait would TSR2, carrying as it does very advanced be the oosiition under ,the Clause of t:he types of electronics equipment which hyb11id aircraft and I shall be grateful if will have an application in aircraft this can be clarified by the Minister. manufactu,re by tJhe British industry later. Other aspects of ithe Amendment con Use of this equipment now installed in cern ,tJhe importation of equipment used the regrettably cancelled TSR2 will by our aircraft manufacturing industry : prevent the necessity of having to turn ithat is, the purchase of whole aircraft, not to other countries for such equipment. merely the equipment but ithe entire product. This has been highlighted for But some imports may be necessary. us recently by the decision of ,the Govern In answer to a Question by the hon. ment to cancel a number of advanced Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) on British projeats and in their place to 5th May, the Minister of Aviation said purchase witJh dollars a number of Ameri that he could not give a figure of the can aircraft. I wonder what ,the exact .'$ ~. 1125 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commitlee 1126 position will be of the Phailltom, which of foreign eqwpment used m Britii:sh air is being bought for the use of ithe Royal oraft is today very smaill. Air Force and the Royal Navy, of the Like a,J.l hon. Members, I hope vhat 1Jhe Hercules Cl30E transport aircraft and any posit·ion wi .... 1135 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1136 [MR. CLARK.] the Government have dealt the aircraft propeller is partially manufactured in industry a crippling blow by the can this country, sent abroad for. more pro cellation of the TSR2. Hon. Members cessing, and brought back here for more opposite know this to be absolutely true. processing, it is difficult for import duty The importance of the aircraft industry purposes to value the equipment and cannot be over-emphasised. It should consequently work out what the Import get as much help as possible from this Duty would be. Government and from any other Govern My hon. Friend the Member for Alder ment, particularly in view of the can shot (Sir E. Errington) drew attention to cellation of the TSR2. the Hovercraft. I hope that hon. Mem Mr. Richard : The hon. Gentleman has bers opposite have heard of the hover told the Committee that the quantiity of craft industry. I have no doubt that goods imported is small and that the they have heard of the aircraft industry. amount of relief if the Amendment were As my hon. Friend the Member for accepted would be infinitesimal. Would Bournemouth, West, said, the export he explain to the Committee how an in potentiality of the Hovercraft industry is finitesimal relief on a small amount of £75 million over the next 10 years. We imports will help the aircra:fit :i!Ildustry? know that this is an estimate, but it is no mean figure. The Government came Mr. Clark : If the hon. Gentleman to power some months ago having made reads my speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT many pledges and promises. One thing he will see that I said that we on this of which they tried to convince the side of the Committee have no means I country was that the Labour Party was of checking how much would be involved. I the scientific party of the two main 1 quoted my hon. Friend the Member I''• parties. Let the Government prove it. for Bournemouth, West, who in tum Why do they give import relief to the had quoted from a Written Answer, shipbuilding industry, which has been saying that the information was going for many hundreds of years, and not available and that in any case it not give relief to the two vital industries would be small and infinitesimal. I which may-I put it no higher-in time accept that. But what the hon. Gentle l replace the shipbuilding industry? Why man should do is ask his own right hon. do not the Government think again and and hon. Friends on the Front Bench include the aircraft and Hovercraft indus what the figure is. It does not matter tries in the Clause? what would be the amount of relief ; iit is the principle of the thing. If it is Mr. J. T. Price (Westhoughton): My right to give this concession to the ship right hon. Friend will give the answer he building industry, it is right to give it chooses to give to the general criticism to the aircraft and hovercraft industry. which has been levelled in the debate. This is the burden of our argument. No One thing which the hon. Gentleman, amount of jiggery-pokery and saying that who is usually fair in these matters, and the amount involved will be much or his hon. Friend have failed to mention that it will not be much will affect the is that, if comparisons are being made primciple of the thing. We have got to with the shipbuilding industry, which do all we can to help the aircraft appears to have a favourable position industry. relative to the aircraft industry, it must not be forgotten that the aircraft industry Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will my hon. of all our industries has had the greatest Friend agree that if the amounit of money amount of support by way of research saved in the drawback is not very much, and development paid for out of public the amount of money saved in not having funds, to the extent of hundreds of to calculate the drawback is tremendous? millions of pounds, which have never been bestowed on the shipbuilding Mr. Clark : I am sure the Minister will industry. This puts it into its proper agree that there would be a saving in perspective. administrative costs. The whole burden of our argument is that we should help Mr. Clark : That may or may not be the aircraft industry. We are helping true. It still does not answer the main the shipbuilding industry through the im allegation made by my hon. Friends that port surcharge. I hope I shall not be ...,....., .,,. --·~vz•w• ~ ., .,--Et'"':' ... _,'i' ...... • if ,"!,··~ 1137 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 • Committee 1138 out of order in what I am about to say, the unemployed? Is he aware that these Dr. King ; I do not intend ito discuss sub 7,000 men cannot find similar employ sequent Clauses, but subsequent Clauses ment in Northern Ireland if they are particularly relating to the Corporation thrown out of work? Tax will penalise 1ihe shipbuilding indus try. Yet under this Clause we are giving Mr. Clark : I am grateful to my hon. the shipbuilding industry a certain Friend for that hesitant intervention. This amount of relief. This is the illogicality is the burden of our whole argument. of the Government's thinking. If the Each time that we question Ministers Governmelllt want to ihel-p, itihey should about what is happening in the aircraft help logically. If the Government say, industry in the matter of redundancy and " It does not matter so far as t!be aircraft unemployment we always have the same induSltry is concerned ; we do not neces old answer, "I am afraid that the infor sarily want to give the aircraft industry mation is not available. We have not got this amount of relief", why is this? Is these registered." The Government were it that the Government are certain that responsible for the cancellation, and in shortly we shall not have an aircraft all fairness and honesty they should make ~ industry to help? it their business to keep records so as I, I ask the Minister to deal with this to prove to the Committee whether what l I point specifically. We have been speaking they say about there not being redun I about helping this industry, and one has dancy or unemployment in future is right ., got the impression that it is new aircraft or wrong. with,..,,.f :\lich we are concerned . . ,But in I hope that what has been said has fact . this would bring in the repair of convinced the Minister of State, Board aircraft and hovercraft, which is an im of Trade, that we view the Amendment portant matter. with great seriousness. Why is it that My hon. Friend the Member for his hon. Friends cannot be bothered to Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) has a very speak to the Amendment or to say a~y personal interest in the aircraft industry thing about the aircraft industry but from and he has never hesitated to say exactly a sedentary position have been quite what he feels about it. [HON. MEMBERS: capable of jeering and laughing? They ~ "Hear, hear."] He has 7,000 of his will not stand up to intervene. I ask the constituents dependent on the aircraft Minister again whether he will extend this industry. It is all very well hon. Mem concession to the aircraft and hovercraft ' bers opposite saying "Hear, hear" but industries. they should not forget that with the can cellation of TRS.2 there are thousands Mr. Godfrey Lagdeo (Hornchurch): of aircraft workers who do not know Would my hon. Friend agree that when whether they are going to work tomorrow. hon. Members opposite make unsympa If hon. Members opposite agree with this thetic remarks and ask, " Are these men shabby way of treating the aircraft indus yet unemployed? " they should be asked try, all I can say on behalf of my hon. whether they realise that these are men Friends is that this is certainly not the who have given a long time to the air way that we regard the industry. craft industry and wish to be employed in the most modern industry that we I ask the Minister to give this matter possess? Does not my hon. Friend agree serious consideration. I hope he will not that the party opposite, led by the Prime shelter behind the incorrect wording, if Minister, in pre-election days spoke of the Amendment is incorrectly worded. this industry as the industry which would We are prepared to take this Amendment be guaranteed employment? Is it not back on the understanding that the Gov a fact that these men do not wish to be ernment will introduce a properly worded employed in making washing machines Amendment to give effect to the spirit but want to work in an industry which behind it. is vital to the future of the country? ~ Mr. McMaster : I am grateful for what Mr. Clark: I am most grateful for my hon. Friend has said. Has he heard that intervention. My hon. Friend has the unsympathetic questions which have made the point more eloquently than been asked on the benches opposite about I could, and what. he has said is Vol. 712 T /, 1139 Finance (No. 2) Bi/1- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1140 [MR. CLARK.] used in shipbuilding, ship-repairing or re absolutely true. Hon. Members oppo fi.t,ting in :the yard are exempt from import site know that it is. I hope that the dwty. Minister will deal with this matter in All these provisions taken collectively his reply. in respect of the shipbuilding industry Several Hon. Members rose-- represent powers specifically designed to encourage shipbuilding, and they repre The Chairman: Order. I think that sent, also, a long-established policy which the hon. Member for Nottingham, South has emerged only as a result of an inrt:en (Mr. William Clark) has finally resumed sive examination of the industry over a his seat. considerable period of time. The Minister of State, Board of Trade Sir E. Errington : Will that cover a (Mr. Edward Redhead): I have listened hydrofoil ship? carefully to the debate and I assure hon. Members that I shall not try to shelter Mr. Redhead : I shall come to tihat, if in my reply behind any purely technical I may, although I hardly think that it is points of phraseology. On the contrary, up ito me to define llhe purpose of the I shall try to take account of what has Amendment or its precise meaning and been explained to be the purposes behind effect. the Amendment. I must say first, how Sir E. Errington : I am not asking about ~ ever, that by seeking, in the Amendment, to apply to the aircraft industry the the Amendment. I am asking about wha.t the Minfater has just saiid. phraseology of Clause 2(1) which applies : . .m 1· to the shipbuilding industry, the sponsors Mr. Redhead : I thought ,tiha,t the hon. of the Amendment have misconceived Gentleman was referring to ithe point the purpose of the subsection. Their which he raised in his own speech. Amendment goes very far beyond that As I understand it, the broad effect purpose. and purpose of ithe Amendment is ,to seek 10.0 p.m. to eX!tend to the aircraf.t industry ,the duty That subsection is limited to a small relief nrovisions which are available to the technical adjustment by way of con sihipbuilding industry in \ 1141 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1142 Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop : Before the hon. I submit quite seriously to the Com Gentleman leaves the point, will he tell us mittee that, whatever views hon. Mem wha,t all that means? bers hold about the present condition of the aircraft industry-obviously, it is an Mr. Redhead : I am trying to clarify industry of tremendous national import what are, admittedly, rather difficult ance-the bal:ance of advantage is not provisions of drawback law in the Acts of easy to assess. The amount of imported Parliament. I am sorry if the clarity of parts in British-made aircraft- we have the hon. Gentleman's mind does not had some debate on this point-obvious ly enable him to follow it. I can only say varies enormously. In some designed that I will do my best. for particular overseas markets it may be fairly high, but I gather that on the The purpose of tJhe Amendment would average it may represent not more than be virtually to abolish the protective about 10 per cent. of the cost. tariff on all aircraft parts and components whether or not the completed aircraft was Mr. McMaster: I ,thought that I exported or sold on the home market. I heard the hon. Gentleman say jm,t now believe that the hon. Gentleman accepts that the Amendment would be of con that as being the purpose of the Amend siderable importance. Now he seems to ment. I hope that he will equally accept be seeking to argue that it would have a it fvom me that the Amendment does not minimum of importance. He cannot achieve that purpose in the way that it have it both ways. Which is it? Is i,t is drafted. important or not important? Let me deal with that purpose. I would Mr. Redhead: I said that the Amend agree that in the context of modern con ment goes far beyond the purposes of ditions and circumstances, and hon. the existing subsection. To that extent, Gentlemen have made some play on much wider grounds about the condition of the it seeks to widen the provision. aircraft industry-I will not be drawn But, even if one takes account of the into a debate on those lines ; I would purpose which lies behind the Amend prefer to confine myself to what I think ment as I have defined it- I understand is sitrictly in order, the provisions of the that it is accepted that that is the pur Amendment- there may, by reference to pose-it is extremely doubtful, without the long-established policy in respect of much more detailed examination, whether ship-building, be a certain logical attrac it would have a very real, beneficial tiveness and some justification for the pur effect. What it would do, on the other pose which the hon. Gentleman has in hand, is to remove the proitective duty mind. But I think that the Committee given by the existing tariff" over this part would recognise thaJt it would represent a of the field. It would represent a sig very major extension of that policy and an nificant change in the competitive posi entirely new sphere of very cons.iderable tion of the makers of parts and equip magniitude. ment who themselves make a significant contribution to direct exports. The Government's view is that such an extension ought not to be undertaken Mr. F. A. Burden (Gillingham): I find · without a very long, hard look at the myself in some difficulty. The hon. I aircraft industry as a whole and at all Gentleman stated that this proposal the relevant faotors in tha,t industry. would bring about an entire change in Certainly, it ought not to be undertaken our tax laws, but how can that be so at very short notice in the context of an when this provision already exists for 1 Amendment to this Bill. lt is inappropriate the shipbuilding industry? to seek to use, particularly at such short ~ notice, the Finance Bill as a means of Mr. Redhead: Obviously, by extend effecting a fundamental change in duty ing it to an industry which has never been the subject of a provision of this provisions. Nor can it be certain, without kind. The shipbuilding policy was deter a much greater and detailed examination, mined in the light of the circumstances that the purpose sought to be served by of that industry. It is a long-established the Amendment would be beneficial to policy. There has been no detailed ex the industry. Clearly, that point has to be amination of the applicability of any established. such provision to the aircraft industry Vol. 712 T2 1143 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1144 [MR. REDHEAD.] opportunities do exist and this subsection and I ~ay, therefore, that it should not in no way affects or impairs that be applied to it without much very position. careful and detailed consideration. But I ask the Committee to appreciate · Indeed, it is impossible to assess with that any extension of the provision should out such an examination just wha,t merit not be sought through an Amendment or validity there is in the claim that the to the Bill. The proposal would be industry sihould have the benefit of the better left to be considered with any provision which applies to the ship and every other possible means which building irndustry. Having said that, may be adjudged appropriate to assist the however, let me make it clear that my aircraft industry. Believing that to be tight hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation the better way to approach a problem of is currently considering, with the advice this kind, I hope that the hon. Member of the Plowden Committee, the future of for Bournemouth, West (Sir J . Eden) all sections of the aircraft industry, all will be content to accept my assurance the various ways in which assistance that his purpose will be borne in mind could and should be given for its proper and considered and not to press the and competitive development. Amendment. Mr. William Clark : The hon. Gentle If the hon. Gentleman thinks that he man says that there has been a detailed must press the Amendment, then, for the study of the shipbuilding industry. Can reasons I have outlined, I must advise he tell us for what reason that industry the Committee to reject it. J,t was given this relief? 10.15 p.m. ~ Mr. Redhead : On the ground that it Mr. Anthony Barber (Altrincham and needed it in the circumstances of the Sale) : I have listened, I hope with an review undertaken at the time. That was open mind, to what the Minister of State an established case. What I am saying has had to say and I know that be will now is that there is not a clear and take it from me that, on this side of the demonstrable established case in respect Committee, when this debate started we of the aircraft iindustry and, secondly, had not made up our minds whether or ~that it is questionable whether the pro not we should divide on the Amend vision sought by the Amendment would ment. I am pleased that the hon. Gentle have a very significant beneficial effect man did not take too seriously any defects t upon the industry. that there may be in the wording of the Amendment. .,. To the extent, however, that the inten tion behind the Amendment is valid to The hon. Gentleman said at some take into consideration in . the general length that it was bis view that this par review now being undertaken by my right ticular Clause might result in certain hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation, I anomalies. He will recaJI, as I am sure can give the Committee our assurance some of his hon. and right hon. Friends that very careful considera,tion will be will, their noble Friend, Lord Mitchison, given to this proposal as one possible who on one occasion in my hearing moved means ·of assistance. an Amendment from tnese benches to provide relief from duty for agricultural Sir J. Eden: Will the hon. Gentleman vehicles. He did so by referring to pro clarify one point? What is the position visions in another Act providing relief of the aircraft which are now on order from duty for fishing vessels. The only for military purposes for use by the Air consequence of bis Amendment was to Force and the Navy? Would they be provide relief from duty for agricultural affected in any way or do not they come tractors while travelling on the high seas. under this impost? He nevertheless felt that this was some Mr. Redhead: I was about to say that thing worth pursuing. aircraft components come within Section This is something very different, and I 7 or 9 of the Act. In so far as they think while it has been a short debate t can satisfy t'he conditions of those it has been an incredible one. We have ~. Seotions, relief of duty may be obtained. not had a single speaker from the Govern Admittedly, it is more limited than in ment backbenches on this vitaUy impor r the case of the shipbuilding industry, but tant aspect of the British aircraft industry. .f'!L ~~J¥:1 • ~ 1145 Finance (No . 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Commi11ee 1146 We have only had two interventions, and very much. There is nobody in this each of those interventions, for a moment Committee who would deny that the or two, were not the sort of interventions potential of the Hovercraft is very great which would please anybody working in indeed. the aircraft industry. We have · had promises in the past about help for the Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the hon. aircraft industry, but there are two Gentleman explain how the previous reasons why I hoped that we might have Government helped the Hovercraft had something a little more forthcoming industry? from the hon. Gentleman the Minister of State. Mr. Barber : I might be out of order ' 'The first is that it cannot be denied, if I went into great detail, but I must whatever the merits may be over the say that if the hon. Gentleman looks TSR 2 and other projects, that the up what we did for the aircraft industry, aircraft industry has received more dis including the Hovercraft industry, he will couragement during these past few see we helped a great deal. months than for many a year previously. What saddens me is that the hon. Secondly, I would have thought that Gentleman in his very courteous reply on its merits the hon. Gentleman and held out no hope at all of anything his right hon. Friends, particularly the on the lines put forward by my hon. Minister of Technology who is here, Friend. He made only a very general would have thought it a good thing promise of a sort of inquiry by the to take some action to encourage the Ministry of Aviation. There may be hovercraft industry which is "a great arguments against the proposal of my invention of the United Kingdom. We hon. Friend, but I am bound to say have had a lot of lip-service in the to the Committee that if there are past about new inventions, modernisa we have certainly not heard of them in tion, technology and so on. Here was the debate this evening. I mean no an opportunity to help. I am not sug personal disrespect to the hon. Gentle gesting that the particular way in which man when I say that his reply was highly my hon. Friend wished to do it was unsatisfactory and for this .teason I must 1 necessarily right but here was an oppor advise my hon. Friends to divide the tunity to help. The hon. Gentleman Committee. himself agrees that the cost of doing this would not be great and it is true, Question put, That those words be tt.ere as one of his hon. Friends said in an inserted:- intervention, that because of this, help The Committee divided : Ayes 170, at this particular time would not be Noes 195. Division No. 110.J AYES [10.19 p.m. Agnew, Cornm3nder Sir Peter Bullus, Sir Eric Eyre, Reginald Alison, Michael Ash) (Barkston Campbell, Gordon Farr, John Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Cary J Sir Robert Allason, James (Hemef Hempstead) Fletcher-Cooke, Sir John (S'pton) Chichester-Clark, R. Foster, Sir John Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Clark, William (No ttingham, S.) Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Astor, John Cole, Norman Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Atkins, Humphrey Cooke, Robert Gammans, Lady j Awdry, Daniel Cooper•l NOES Albu, Austen Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lomas, Kenneth Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Fletcher, Sir Eric (Islington, E.) Loughlin, Charles Armstrong, Ernest Fletcher, Raymond (llkeston) Lubbock, Eric Atkinson, Norman Floud, Bernard McBridge, Neil Baxter, William Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Mccann, J, Beaney, A Ian Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Maccoll, James Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Ford, Ben MacDermot, Niall Blackburn, F. Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) McGuire, Michael Blenkinsop, Arthur Freeson, Reginald Mcinnes, James Boston, T. c. Ginsburg, David McKay, Mrs. Margaret Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Lei cs W .) s. Gourlay I Harry Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land) Boyden, James Gregory, Arnold Mackie, John (Enfield, E.) Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) MacMillan, Malcolm Bradley, Tom Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) Bray, Dr. Jeremy MacPherson, Malcolm Griffiths, Will (M'chester, Exchange) Mahon, Peter (Preston, S .) Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Bel per) Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Buchanan, Richard Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mallalieu,J.P. \Y .(Huddersfield,E.) Hannan, William Carmichael, Neil Mapp, Charles Harper, Joseph Carter-Jones, Lewis Mason, Roy Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mellish, Robert Chapman, Donald Hart, Mrs. Judith Millan, Bruce Coleman, Donald Herbison1 Rt. Hn. Margaret Milne, Edward (Blyth) Hooson, H. E. Morris, John (Aberavon) Conlan1 Bernard Corbet, Mrs. Freda Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Mulley' Rt. H n. Frederick(ShellieldPk) Cousins, Rt. Hn. Frank Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Murray, Albert Craddock, George (Bradfo rd, S.) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Neal, Harold Crawshaw, Richard Hoy, James Newens, Stan Cronin, John Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Noel-Baker, Rt. H n. Philip(Derby, S.) Cullen, Mrs. Alice Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Oakes, Gordon 1 Dalyell, Tam Hynd, John (Attercliffe) 0 Malley 1 Brian D~vies, G. Elfed (Rhondch , E.) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Orme, Stanley Dav;es, lfor (Cower) Jackson, Colin Oswald, Thom as de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey Jeger,Mr s .Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) Owen, Will Delargy, Hugh Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Dempsey, James Jones, Dan (Burnley) Paget, R. T. Diamond, John Jones, J. ldwal (Wrexham) Palmer, Arthur Dodds, Norman Jones, T . w. (Merioneth) Pargiter, G. A. Doig, Peter Kelley, Richard Park, Tre vor (Derbyshire, S.E,) Donnelly, Desmond Kenyon, Clifford Parking, B. T . Driberg, Tom Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. Lawson, George Pentland, Norman Dunnell, Jack Leadbitter, Ted Perry, Ernest G. Edelman, Maurice Ledger, Ron Popplewell, Ernest R. E, Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lee 1 Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Prentice, English, Michael Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Ennals, David Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Probert, Arthur Ensor, David Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Pursey, Cmclr. Harry Fernyhough, E. Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) Rankin, John 1149 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY "1965 Committee 1150 Redhead, Edward Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) w atkins, Tudor Rees, Merlyn Small, William Wells, William {Walsall, N.) Reynolds, G. W. Snow, iJulian Whitlock, William Rhodes, Geoffrey Steel, David (Roxburgh) Wigg, Rt. Hn. George Richard, Ivor Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W .) Wilkins, w. A. Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Stonehouse, John Williams, Alan (Swansea, W .) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Stones, William Williams, Albert (Abertillery) Robertson, John (Paisley) Summerskill, The Hn. Dr. Shirley Williams, W. T. ( Warrington) Robinson, Rt.Hn.K.(St. Pancras, N.) Swain, Thomas Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Swingler, Stephen Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold ( Huy ton) Shore, Peter (Stepney) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) e,oM Winterbottom, R. E. Short, Rt. Hn. E.( N 'c'tle-on -Tyne,C.) Thomas, George (Cardiff, W .) Woof, Robert Silkin, John (Deptford) Tinn, James Zilliacus, K. Silkin, S. C. (Camberwell, Dulwich) Wainwright, Edwin Silverman, Julius (Aston) Walden, Brian (All Saints) TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Walker, Harold (Doncaster) Mrs. Harriet Slater and Skeffington, Arthur Wallace, George Mr. Charles Grey. Vol. 712 T4 1151 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1152 10.30 p.m. and not lessening the bonds on those Question proposed, That the Clause who import these goods. Why these stand part of the Bill. further conditions under Clause 2(1)? If conditions are to be imposed, as ap Mr. Graham Page (Crosby): We can pears from Clause 2(1), how are these not let this Clause go without a further conditions to be imposed? explanation from the Government. It is The Treasury can impose conditions by a Clause which deals with miscellaneous Order, and, as under the 1958 Act, the amendments to the Import Duties Act, Order has to be made by Statutory In 1958, and I think that the Minister of strument. Is that the intention, that, State unwittingly misled the Committee instead of the imported goods for ship in dealing with the last Amendment, building being completely free under Sec when he said that Clause 2(1) gave tion 5(2) of the 1958 Act, they are in further relief to shipbuilders- - future to be subject to some further res The Chairman : Order. It is very trictions under Clause 2(1) of the Bill? difficult for the Chair to hear the hon. If ships are to be switched, as it were, Member if other hon. Members indulge from Section 5 of the 1958 Act to Section in loud conversations. 7 of that Act, will the manufacturer, the shipbuilder, who uses these goods for Mr. Page: I am much obliged, Dr. shipbuilding have to go through all the King. procedures of Section 7? Clause 2(1) deals with Section 7 of the Section 7 of the 1958 Act sets out an Import Duties Act, 1958, which deals elaborate procedure for obtaining free with imported goods intended to be ex dom from import duty. It would seem ported. It does not deal with shipbuild that the amendment proposed by sub ing or ship repairing or with goods section (1) of the Clause imposes a pro brought to a ship-repairing yard. They cedure which did not exist before for ithis are dealt with in Section 5(2) of that class of manufacturer. Clause 2(3) pro Act, and by that subsection seem to be vides that given a complete exemption. The sub "So m uch of subsection (3) of that sec section says : tion "- " Goods of any description shall be exempt Section 7 of the 1958 Aot- from import duties, if consigned direct to a " as requires any application for the exercise registered shipbuilding yard and imported for of the power conferred by that section to be the purpose of being used for the building, made by the importer, to be made in writing repairing or refitting of ships in the yard." and, except where the Commiss.ioners other It is in the Import Duties Act, 1958, wise allow, to be made before the imported articles are released from customs control in Section 5(2), that we have exemption shall cease to have effect." for the very goods dealt with in Clause 2(1). Therefore, what is the purpose of It is not clear from that whether, first, Clause 2(1)? It seems to introduce these an application must still be made and, goods into a class where certain condi secondly, if it does, whether it has to be tions have to be observed before relief made by the importer himself. The relief is given. given here is that the application does not have to be made in writing and be It seems to me that it does not do fore the imported articles are released, what the hon. Gentleman said it did, give but it leaves out whether an application further relief to shipbuilding. It seems must be made at all and, if so, by whom. to put further conditions on those who are importing goods for use for ship Subsection (5) seems to be wholly building or ship-repairing with the in objectionable. It deals with an order tention of their being exported. We under Section 9 of the 1958 Act, which already have that exemption under Sec states: tion 5(2) of the 1958 Act. So far as "Subjec t to the provisions of this section, the Treasury may by order provide that draw drawbacks are concerned, we have the back on exportation shall be allowed under exemption under Section 9(4). The con thi& section (either for a period specified in ditions which can now be imposed by the order or without limit of period) as res pects import duties paid on the importation bringing this subject into Section 7 of of goods of any description specified in the the 1958 Act only seem to be restricting order." 1153 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1154 In short, it says that any allowance It is a constitutional change giving the of this sort is made by the Treasury by right to a department to tax and set a order and that no order shall be made rate of tax as it might choose withou! except on the recommendation of the telling the House even the rate it will Board of Trade and in accordance with impose. The subsection seems to be the Fifth Schedule of the 1958 Act. These thoroughly objectionable. I hope that drawback orders are at present made by the Minister of State will have some Statutory Instrument. That is provided explanation to give. for in Section 13 of the 1958 Act, which Sir E. Errington : In discussion of the states: last Amendment, I endeavoured to get " (2) Any power of the Treasury or Board the Minister of State to tell us the posi of Trade to make orders or regulations under this Act shall be exercisable by statutory instru tion in relation to a hydrofoil. He ment". informed me that he would deal with it An even more important point is that later. I understand that a hydrofoil is in if those orders are in respect of a relief the nature of a ship. I want to know from tax, they take effect only subject whether or not it comes under this Clause. to annulment by a Resolution of the It is a simple question and I hope that House of Commons. If they increase the the Minister of State will do me the tax or if they decrease the relief from courtesy of answering on this occasion. tax, then they only take effect for 28 I made the point that there was little days, unless they have an affirmative distinction between a hydrofoil and a Resolution of the House. Hovercraft. They work on different lines, but achieve the same object in travel This is an elaborate procedure whereby ling over the sea. It is a pity that the drawback orders are made and whereby Minister of Technology has left the the House has kept track of departmental Chamber. There is a considerable taxation. Even when tax is being de development of hydrofoils, which, I hope creased, an order must be laid before will increase. I should like to be satisfied Parliament by Statutory Instrument and that if there is any benefit under this Parliament can decide whether to pray Clause-which, at the moment, I fail to against it. If it is increasing tax or see, and I await with interest the Minis decreasing the relief from tax, it can ter's answer to my hon. Friend the Mem not continue to take effect after 28 days ber for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) un1ess it has an affirmative Resolution when goods are brought to a registered of the House. shipbuilding yard for the purpose of build Now, it seems, the Clause will alter ing a hydrofoil, they will get that benefit. this procedure and the Treasury will be Mr. David Price (Eastleigh): I appre entitled to make its drawback orders ciate what my hon. Friend the Member without mentioning the rate of draw back. Subsection (5) reads: for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) has said, and I shall appreciate it if, when the " An order under Section 9 of the said Minister of State replies, he will also deal Act of 1958 providing for drawback .. . on the exportation of goods produced or with the case of Hovercnaft. manufactured from imported articles may, I have studied the Import Duties Act, instead of prescribing a rate of drawback ... provide that the drawback shall, in relation to 1958, and I draw attention to subsection these goods, be of an amount equal to the (6) of Section 5, where I looked for a duty appearing to the Commissioners to have definition. It does not help us except been paid." from the weight limit. It says: Without the House knowing what rate " Unless otherwise provided by order of the of drawback is intended, the House will Treasury, the expression 'shlp ' in subsections be asked to give a blank cheque to the (2) and (3) of this section shall not include any ship which is of a gross tonnage ... of Commissioners to decide that rate where less than eighty tons." previously they have always had to bring That would rule out many current hover it before the House in an order by craft. Is it the view of the Department Statutory Instrument. -I suppose that at the end of the day ~ This provision tucks away in Clause it would be determined in the courts 1 2 a constitutional change without a that a Hovercraft is in fact a ship? This proper explanation bemg given by the is not an entirely esoteric question. Those Government as to why it is necessary. of us who represent constituencies around , . 1155 Finance (No. 2) Bill- 17 MAY 1965 Committee 1156 [MR. PRICE.] wit!hin the definition of a ship for tihe Southampton Water and the Solent are pmposes of tJhe existing reliefs applicable deeply concerned about the development to the shipbuiolding industry. I gather of Hovercraft. We read that the Ameri that is tihe point? cans are considering the application of Sir E. Errington indicated assent. pocket nuclear power propulsion to Hovercraft, a form of propulsion which Mr. Redhead: I am advised tihat the we have not developed. We have been definition of a ship is a legal question working mainly on the Magnox type of but, on the information at present before reactor. These are, I understand, varia me, i,t would appea.r probable that a tions of the boiling water reactor on hydirofoiI would be an exempt ship if irt which the Americans have done a lot of weighed over 80 :tons and saitisfied the work in relation to nuclear submarines. o~her definition in itihe Act. 'Dhe poi!nt, however, is one whioh I should like an 10.45 p.m. opporitunity of confirming, and I wi1i write I say with all respect to the Minister of to the hon. Gentfoman subsequell!tly by State that this question of definition, which way of confirmation or otherwise. may appear to be rather an esoteric and semantic point, is extremely relevant to A simiJ,air point was raised on tihe ques the future of the Hovercraft which is, I tion of Hovercraft. I would not venture hope, of deep interest to all members of an opinion at t)he moment as to the the Committee, but especially to those of probabiJ,i,tri.es in tihat connection, but I us who represent constituencies in wouO.d ilike rto ihave an opportunity of southern Hampshire and the Solent area. doing so la:ter. As to whetiher a factory producing Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop : I should like motor boats in a place which is not to be rtold what a manufactmeir has to a:djacent to water can be a registered do before he can r,egister a:s a regisrteired shipbui'iding yard, there would be a ques shirpbui1ding yard. I ask this ques,tion tion of,'.rthe a:ppLioatiion for ,registration becaus,e t!here is an increasing export and of wihetiheir it conforms to the re trade in fasit motor boats produced in this quis,ite conditions of the appropriate Act. country, and there is not as yet any Again I am not too clear-it hais not surt,aible hghtweight ~ as to the value of the goods at the time heavy commercial vehioles and not the appropriate. I would reassure the hon. smali vans whioh usually faH into tihe t Gentleman that this is not going to affect category of the motor car. 11he lights the employment of his constituents at of many of these v,ehioles can be seen Littlewoods in the slightest degree. We to be defective, even by a cursory and are merely dealing here with what has passin,g look. Today, for instance, I 1169 Commercial Vehicles 17 MAY 1965 (Lighting) 1170 d,rove down the M.1 from No,rttharnpton a technicality. The reason might be tha,t looking at tibe rear lighting of ,vhe vehicles because farm vehicles, for instance, are as I passed, and oUJt of 46 lorries wbiclh never used on roads, it is not necessary I passed eight had rna,r lights or reflectors for headlamps to be fitted rto a vehicle whioh were e~t:her bvoken o,r missmg, when it is made. some wirth flex hanging down, and ten However, and this is my first recom ot:hers lbad l.ights so badly obscured by mendation,.! have had a fitting called dim mud or deisel eJQhaust slime as to have dip fitted rto ,the headlamps of my car for been inefficient in dal'lmess. rthe last six months, and I a,m extra At t:he end of ,tibe joumey, I stopped ordinarily pleased with it. I believe rtihat at about one o'clock at a transport cafe ,the Minis,try has instituted a scheme with at Watford, at tihe end of the M.I, and the use of dim-dip with London taxis, the bad a look at the vehicles in tihe car effect being that if ,the igrution is ,turned park. I and friends with me were on, when ~he sidelights are on the head staggered by The bad condition of some lights operate at •1Jhe same ,time in a of the lighting. It was not just on the dimmed condition. I have found from very rougih vehicles, tihe gravel and sand practical experience thait rthis is a very lorries whioh have a very rough time good form of lighrts to use in roads which and wlhioh one a,lmos,t expects to find have street lighting but where the lighting deifeotive, but was also to be found on is not good enough for the use of side some very good vehicles owned by re lights alone. putable companies. 1t was particulal'ly I hesitaite a,t iliis stage to advocaite that appaUing to see tihem coming into the dim-dip should be made compulsory, but car park and braking, for one could then I hope that discerning motorists and see how many brake lights were not people such as the police might be en working properly. I spoke ,t;o a number couraged to use it and thait it will become of drivers who were ex:t,remely friendly a feature of discussion among the motor and helpful and ahl agreed tihat 1:lherewas ing public. I know abourt the Birming a big problem wi~h '1:ihelighting on tlheir ham experiment winh the use of dipped vehicles, especialiy ,ube rear lighting. I headlights at all times during ,the hours hope to condense some of their sugges of darkness, but I have found that in tions into my oonoluding remarks. cities and built-up areas dipped headlights are ofrt:en much rtoo bright. With the Tonight our discussion must revolve queue of cars that travels along Cromwell airound The foliowing questions. First, Road in the evening hours, for example, a,re 1:lhe present regulations adequate? I think that they would be too bright. Secondly, are they car-ried out and The existing rear lighting of a vehicle enforced and enforceabile? Thirdly, comprises the light which illuminates the should there be new regu~ations? Lastly, number plate, the two red rear lights and a,re there any other things whioh could rtwo reflectors. When a vehicle leaves the I be done to help to improve vehicle light factory or has been newly maintained, ing and its effectiveness? this rear lighting, simply to indicate the In brief, I accept tihart:there are tech back of the vehicle, is probably ade nicafaies, burt as a generalisation the quate. I should, however, like to know present regulations demand as obligatory the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's view two side lights showing white rto the front, about whether rthe exisiting rear lighting two red rear lights, and two reflectors. has sufficient intensity when vehicles are The rear number plate must be illumi dirty and when rthe lights are obscured by 1 nated by either a separaite light, or by a dirt. I light thrown from one of ;the other lights. My view is that all vehicles, both old E~tra long and e~tra wide vehicles also vehicles and those newly manufactured, need special lighting. The faot rthat head should also have stop lights, which could lamps are not obligatory is surprising to easily be incorporated. Very little addi most people. Stop lights and flashing tion is needed to the electrical system 'i lights are not obligatory on all vehicles. to allow for stop lights. I also consider As to the front lights, if the two side that on commercial vehicles winking 1 lights were working I should have tihought lights to indicate whether a vehicle is that they were adequate. The faot ciiat turning to the right or to the left should headlights are not obligatory is obviously be made compulsory. With those lights, 1171 Commercial Vehicles 17 MAY 1965 tLighting) 1172 [MR. PAGE.] lights are working. That has to be very and with the addition of a special light carefully checked. to indicate whether a vehicle is more than, say, 27-30 ft. in length, I believe Are these regulations enforced or en that the rear of a vehicle would be forceable? They are not enforced, and sufficiently illuminated. they cannot be 100 per cent. enforce able with the police working almost at Friends of mine and people from the saturation point on traffic problems as motoring organisations have mentioned they now are. I should like to make the Continental or American style, with one serious suggestion to the Parliamen lights all over the vehicle, but I do not tary Secretary, that when a vehicle is see much benefit in seeing what the stopped by the police, not only the driver height of the vehicle is. I see, however, but the owner of the vehicle should be that there is benefit for a person who summoned. I believe that the powers passes a long vehicle ait night if he knows already exist under the regulations. I whether it is just an ordinary lorry or believe that many companies would in an extra-long lorry. I would suggest stitute proper maintenance programmes some kind of triangle or cross illuminated for their vehicles if the company secre in the middle of the back of the vehicle tary or the managing director were to so that one knows whether it is a long get a number of buff envelopes from the I one or not. police and if his company were reported I I come now to the second point. Are in the local press as running inefficiently these regulations carried out, and are maintained vehicles. they enforced? I can say for certain I believe that flaps are advantageous that they are not carried out. A survey when they are attached to the back of the carried out by the A.A. in F,ebruary mudguards of the big lorries. I know of this year showed the vast inefficiency that the Road Research Laboratory has of vehicle lighting on the road. I am been carrying out a survey on this. Could sure that the Parliamentary Secretary the Parliamentary Secretary give us any and every motorist must know that a results of this? I should, perhaps, de great many vehicles- I would say at least clare my interest, because if vehicles were one out of every three commercial fitted with these flaps the firm with which vehicles- on the road at present have I am connected might make them, not defective lighting. One reason is that that there would be any harm in that. they are not strongly enough manufac There is in Italy a regulation com tured. The brackets on which they are pelling all vehicles to carry a red triangle put are not really rugged enough to on which is fitted a reflector. In the stand up to the job which they have to event of a breakdown the triangle is do. I wonder whether the Parliamentary placed some distance from the vehicle- Secretary might like the motoring organi 20 to 100 yards, according to the cir sations to bend their minds to seeing cumstances-to warn traffic. I hope that whether some kind of standardisation of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will a more rugged type of equipment could draw the attention of his right hon. be envisaged, and whether there is some Friend to that regulation ; although, to way of making the brackets much be effective, such a scheme must be stronger. operated by all drivers. The regulations are not enforced, I understand that a scheme to inspect either. This is proved by the fact that vehicles are being driven with their vehicles once a year is under considera lights covered with mud and slush. This tion. I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will inform us of Government can be remedied in a matter of seconds thinking on this matter. I hope that, by the vehicle being washed. whatever scheme of inspection is adopted, A rag smeared over the vehicle once the inspections will be carried out at !· a week in the morning or the evening garages which have special equipment would do the job. Lights, especially the and not, as I believe might be in the brake lights, cannot be tested by the mind of the Government, only in I driver himself, because he cannot be in Government testing stations. I must f, the cab pressing down the pedal and resume my seat to give the hon. Gentle at the back seeing whether or not the man time in which to reply. I hope -..IIC 1173 Commercial Vehicles 17 MAY 1965 (Lighting) 1174 that he will tell us about the latest inter I hope to answer all the points which national standards on lighting if he has he and the right hon. Gentleman the any information. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West In this short debate we are discussing (Mr. Powell) raised. The governing an important subject about which, I am legislation is the Road Transport Lighting sure, all hon. Members feel concerned. I Act, 1957, and the Regulations made hope that it will not receive only a moment under it, whlch are conoemed solely with of interest but that the Joint Parliamen ensuring proper standards of vehicle -l tary Secretary and the public will take a lighting. continuing interest in the problem. Difficulties similar to those which the 11.43 p.m. hon. Gentleman mentioned arise not so Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Wolverhampton, much from deficiencies in the present South-West): For a few seconds before state of the law- though I am not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary replies claiming that new Regulations on the I wish to emphasise the great importance subject are not necessary ; and I will of the subject which my hon. Friend the refer to that shortly-but, as I said in Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John replying to the hon. Member for Eton ~ Page) has raised tonight. and Slough (Sir A. Meyer) at Question There are, as my hon. Friend said, two Time recently, from difficulties in distinct aspects. One is the improvement enforcing the law. of the Construction and Use Regulations We appeal to all citizens to try to in the matter of lighting- and my hon. achieve a higher standard of enforce Friend mentioned a number of respects in ment of the existing Regulations, which which there could be advances ; and these would bring considerable benefits to all will, no doubt, come along-and the other road users. aspect is enforcement. On that we do not need to wait for further regulations. The hon. Member for Harrow, West Like so many people, I have been has raised a number of specific points shocked to notice the large number of about the lighting of commercial cases of breaches of the law in regard to vehicles, especially heavy goods vehicles. the lighting of vehicles, with manifest risk He gave me notice of these points and to other users of the roads. The Joint I shall direct my attention to them Parliamentary Secretary will be entitled immediately. One of the suggestions he to say that enforcement does not fall made was that there should be an within the province and responsibility of extension of the system known as dim his Department. Nevertheless, I feel sure dipped headlights. This is a system of that if his Department-and, indeed, the lighting devised by the Road Research general public-gives the importance and Laboratory for use in streets which are priority to this aspect of enforcement well lit at rught. The idea is to make whjch I believe it deserves then, even clear to other road users when a vehicle with the existing resources of the police, using the system is moving without the we could speedily see some improvement attendant dangers of dazzle. With the in this important respect. co-operation of the London taxicab 11.44 p.m. owners, we and the Laboratory are The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to at present conducting a controlled ex the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen periment to see whether the system in Swingler) : The subject of lighting of road fact has the advantages from a road vehicles arouses wide interest and we are safety point of view that we hope. If it happy that this is so. Proper lighting is lives up to our expectations-we shall one of the most important aspects of road not know this until the experiment is safety and we want to achieve the highest completed-we shall certainly give possible standards by vehicle owners and serious attention to the possibilities of operators. I recently answered some Ques extending the use of the system. Cer tions in the House on this subject, when tainly the problem of dazzle from a number of hon. Members expressed their headlamps, which is not confined to views. Tonight the hon. Member. for commercial vehicles, is one which Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) has drawn worries us a great deal. We are hoping attention to what he regards as a number that this new lighting system will prove of deficiencies. a great step forward in combating it. 1175 Commercial Vehicles 17 MAY 1965 (Lighting) 1176 [MR. SWINGLER.] hope soon to hear whether it has been The hon. Member drew attention to able to do anything on the lines sug the problem of dirt on rear lamps. This gested in the report. is a very serious problem. He suggested Now I tum to the question of direc that we ought to make it compulsory for tion indicators. The hon. Member asked rear lamps to be brighter to counteract whether it should be made compulsory the effects of dirt. The difficulty here for vehicles to be fitted with direction is that those drivers who take the indicators. On and after 1st September trouble to keep their rear lamps clean this year all new vehicles which are fitted would, if brighter lights were fitted on with direction indicators will have to com their vehicles, be in danger of making ply with new regulations. These regula them so bright as to dazzle drivers of tions require that the indicators should other vehicles. The law on this subject be amber in colour and be in the form is at the moment quite definite. It of flashing lights. As soon as we have requires that all rear lamps- not only had experience of the effect of these new on commercial vehicles-shall be main regulations it is our intention to make the tained in a clean and efficient condition. new direction indicators compulsory for It will therefore be realised that this is all new vehicles. a problem of enforcement rather than of making new regulations, a problem of Mr. John Page: New vehicles? enforcing a higher standard of cleanli .. r ness among drivers in regard to rear Mr. Swingler : All new vehicles. lamps. However, we are considering Incidentally, the House may be increasing the minimum required area interested to know that we are also con of the rear lights of commercial vehicles. sidering whether it would be practicable At present the area is 3½ square inches, to specify different intensities for use but we are now thinking in terms of by day and night, in order to lessen the 12 square inches as the standard and dangers of drivers being dazzled by also proposing to improve these direction indicators. standards on all types of vehicle. We The hon. Gentleman also raised the are also proposing to make stop lights question of vehicles that protrude at the compulsory, possibly with different back for a considerable length. He was intensities for day and night use. anxious that special markings should The hon. Member referred to the ques be used. Our regulations already provide tion of mud flaps and dirt thrown up by that vehicles or combinations of vehicles vehicles ,in our typically British weather. which exceed 60 ft. in length must carry The Road Research Laboratory has con marker lamps on each side of the vehicle. ducted an interesting and valuable experi But we are not entirely satisfied that the ment on the problem of spray thrown present situation is the right one, and up by heavy vehicles on wet roads. I we are considering together with our am glad that some hon. Members pay European colleagues on the Road Trans attention to reports by the Road Research port Committee of the Economic Com Laboratory ; I wish that they were more mission for Europe whether there is a widely read. The report on this subject need for shorter vehicles to carry lights suggests that some improvement could or reflectors at the side. This Com be made by having mud guards and flaps mittee of the E.C.E. is doing a great on commercial vehicles, although we must 'deal of valuable work to try to bring remember that the experiments by the about in Europe standardisation of the Laboratory have shown that the amount ,lighting of vehicles. It has already pro of spray depends largely on the speed of duced several regulations under an the vehicle and a great proportion comes agreement reached in 1958 to define from the side of the wheels, so the effect standards for headlamps, headlamp of using flaps is bound to be somewhat bulbs, reflex reflectors and direction indi I limited. We have brought the report cators. The standards set by these regu I of the Road Research Laboratory to the lations will be used by us for defining lighting equipment to be fitted to vehicles ~ attention of the Society of Motor Manu I facturers and Traders and of certain lead used in this country. ing manufacturers of commercial vehicles. The hon. Gentleman asked about the We .are in touch with the Society and ,prosecution of the owners of vehicles 1177 Commercial Vehicles 17 MAY 1965 (Lighting) 1178 with defective lighting as well as the owner or operator of a vehicle is prose drivers. The law already provides that cuted under this Section whenever it .this should be done. Section 12 of the can be proved that the offence is due to Road Transport Lighting Act, 1957 negligence on the part of the owner and makes it an offence for a person to cause that he is generally held to be responsible or permit any vehicle to be on any road when the lighting system of a vehicle is in contravention of any of the provisions found to be defective-- of the Act, or of any of the regulations made under it. A fine not exceeding The Question having been proposed £50 can be imposed for an offence after Ten o'clock and the debate having against this Section of the Act. continued for half an hqur, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question Prosecution, as the right hon. Mem put, pursuant to the Standing Order. ber for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) mentioned, is a matter for Adjourned at six minutes to Twelve the police, but I understand that the o'clock. 1 1 ~ j 153 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 154 Monday, 17th May, 1965 PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS in that building are now occupied by the Fees Office. Building Materials Mr. C. Pannell : The cost of removing 3. Mr. Spriggs asked the Minister of the Fees Office to St. Stephen's Club Public Building and Works if he will was about £3,400. The net area is 2,450 seek powers to provide protection against square feet. The accommodation will the use of sub-standard materials by house the Fees Office for about another builders, and the provision of a builder's seven months. guarantee to his customers which will give the owner the right to compensation Nos. 10, 11 and 12, Downing Street where such building or part thereof fails to provide a reasonable length of 9. Mr. J. H. Osborn asked the Minister service. of Public Building and Works what has Mr. Boyden: Building byelaws already been ,the tot8!l expenditure on office contain requirements about the suit machinery, furnirture, and equipment at ability, quality, preparation. and appli No. 10, Downing Street since 15tih cation of materials used in new building October, 1964; and whether he will pub construction and in structural alterations lish in 11he OfficiaJl Report a breakdown and extensions. Similar requirements of ~his expenditure. will be included in building regulations 15. Mr. Peter Mills asked the Minis,ter to be made under the Public Health of PubEc Building and Works whait has Act, 1961. The proposals in the second been ,the total sum spent on ail1erations, part of the Question will be considered furnishings and decorations at Nos. 10, in the light of the consultations to which 11 and 12, Downing Street since 15th my right hon. Friend the Minister of October, 1964. Housing and Local Government referred Mr. C. Pannell: About £5,000 at Nos. on 9th March in reply to questions 10, 11 and 12, Downing Srtreet, mainly on from the hon. Members for Birmingham, the offices. Following are the details of Yardley (Mr. loan L. Evans)~ and expenditure at No. 10 : Willesden. East (Mr. Freeson). Details are as follows : £ Plasterboard Furniture and equipment for offices and other working accommodation 2,417 6. Mr. Iremonger asked the Minister Office machinery 220 of Public Building and Works if he will Domestic furniture 105 make a statement about the shortage Cutlery and other domestic equip- of plasterboard for the building industry. ment ... 42 Curtains, soft furnishings and floor Mr. Boyden : The manufacturers are coverings 313 expanding capacity by 50 per cent. in the next two years. New plant began Seasoned Oak production in February and further expansion is expected in July. The present 10. Mr. Kershaw asked the Mmter of difficulties should ease progressively. Public BuHding and Works whether he is satisfied with -tihe supply of seasoned St. Stephen's Club oak available for tJhe building industry; and what steps he proposes to take to 8. Mr. John Wells asked the Minister increase tihe supply. of Public Building and Works how long he anticipates the St. Stephen's Club Mr. Boyden : I know of no such supply building will remain available as accom difficulties. modation for the Fees Office. Welsh Office (Premises) 14. Mr. Grant asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was 1 1. Sir T. Brinton asked the Minister the cost to his Department of removing of Public Building and Works what has the Fees Office to the St. Stephen's Club been tihe total cost ,to date of the buNding building ; and how many square feet and equipment of t!he Welsh Office; and 155 Writlen Answers 17 MAY 1965 Writlen Answers 156 to what use tihe buiiding was previoosily Between 1953 and 1961 a typical aHooaited. annual expenditure was around £65,000. Mr. Boyden: The Welsh Office in More recently this has doubled. Much London is hous•ed in Grown free!hold of this expenditure has been due to premises at 47, Parliament Street, pre repairs outstanding from the War, eradi v~ously used for conference purposes. cation of dry rot, improvements to light 11he cost of prepaTing and furnisihing this ing and heating, and general maintenance. accommodait:ion for i,ts new use was about The Cumberland Suite on the east side £9,000. of Clock Court was opened to the public for the first time on 5th April of this New Embassy, Rome year, after complete restoration and 12. Mr. Allason asked the Minister redecoration. of Public Building and Works what pro gress has been made with the new em OJd Palace Yard and Abingdon bassy in Rome ; and whether he will Street make a statement. 17. Mr. John Wells asked the Minister Mr. C. Pannell: Preparatory drawings of Public Building and Works what has are well in hand. been the total cost to the Exchequer of the demolition, renovation and garden Star Court (Building) works at and around No. 7 Old Palace Yard; and to what extent Westminster 13. Mr. Hunt asked the Minister of City Council or the Greater London Public Building and Works how many Council are contributing to the cost. square feet of floor space will result from the proposed building in Star Court. 23. Mr. Loveys asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the Mr. C. Pannell: 9,000 square feet of estimated final cost of the demolition and usable office space. reconstruction works at the Abingdon Street site and the Jewel House Moat. Hampton Court Mr. Boyden : The estimated total cost 16. Mr. Murton asked the Minister of is £57,000. This includes £8,000 for the Public Building and Works what addi demolition of No. 5, and the renovations tional rooms at Hampton Court will be to Nos. 6 and 7 Old Palace Yard ; open to the public during 1965. £4,000 for the Jewel Tower and £45,000 Mr. Boyden: The Cumberland Suite, for the layout of Abingdon Street Garden consisting of an entrance lobby, an ante and the Westminster Jewel Tower site, room and four rooms, constructed by and for the extension of the open space Wi1liam Kent in 1732, has been com to the King George V Memorial. pletely restored and redecorated, and was Neither the Westminster City Council opened to the public for the first time nor the Greater London Council contri last month. buted to the cost of this work. The Two late Tudor rooms near the Wolsey Westminster City Council were respon Suite are at present being restored. Work sible for a small area of the paving. is due to be completed later in the year when these rooms also will be opened Admiralty House to the public. 19. Dr. Bennett asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the 21. Mr. Charles Morrison asked the estimated cost of the repairs and recon Minister of Public Building and Works struction of Admiralty House. what has been the total expenditure on 31. Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles asked repairs and restoration at Hampton Court the Minister of Public Building and since January 1952; and how many Works whether he will provide public additional rooms have been opened to access to the historic parts of Admiralty the public since that date. House when its renovation is completed. Mr. Boyden : Separate figures for Mr. C. Pannell : The estimated cost expenditure in this category are not avail is £105,000. The question of allowing able before 1953-54. Expenditure over the public access will be considered in the twelve years since then has amounted connection with future plans for to just over £1 million. Admiralty House. 157 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 158 Whitehall Historic Monuments (Season Tickets, 20. Mr. A. Royle asked the Minister Guide Books and Postcards) of Public Building and Works what 46. Mr. Ted Fletcher asked the alterations in the Government long-term Minister of Public Building and Works plan for the development of Whitehall what progress has been made in the have been made in the light of creation sale of season tickets, guide books and . of the number of new Ministries since postcards at the historic monuments in October, 1964. his care. Mr. C. Pannell: None. Mr. Boyden: Over 20,000 of the new season tickets were sold during 1964. Banqueting House, Whitehall Sales of publications, postcards and colour slides amounted to a record figure 22. Dr. Bennett asked the Minister of of just under £172,000-an increase of Public Building and Works what almost £22,000 over the previous record arrangements he has made for the provi in 1963. sion of kitchen facilities at the Banquet ing House in Whiteha11. Chiswick House (Link Mr. Boyden : None. Building and Summer Parlour) 50. Mr. Parker asked the Minister of Hand-made Bricks and Tiles Public Building and Works when he 24. Mr. Geoffrey Wilson asked the expects to compete the restoration on Minister of Public Building and Works the Link House and garden architecture what steps he will take to remedy the at Chiswick House. shortage of hand-made bricks and tiles ; Mr. Boyden: The Link Building was and whether he will make a survey of restored last year and was opened to brickyards recently closed which could the public last month. Work on the economically be reopened. Summer Parlour is almost finished. Mr. Boyden : Hand-made bricks and tiles are expensive and have a limited Public Buildings (Floodlighting) market. I have no evidence of particudar Mr. Robert Cooke asked the Minister difficulties over hand-made bricks or of Public building and Works what tiles. additional public buildings he proposes to floodlight in 1965. Palace of Westminster Mr. C. Pannell : Fifteen of the build 25. Mr. Marten asked the Minister of ings in my charge are regularly floodlit. Public Building and Works whether he I have no definite plans for adding to this will publish future plans for improve number. ments for hon. Members in the Palace of Westminster in addition to the Star Diplomatic Service Court scheme. (Training of Administration Officers) Mr. C. Pannell: Yes, as and when Mr. G. Campbell asked the Minister future plans are worked out. of Public Building and Works what action his Department is taking to help in the training of administration officers Digital Clocks in the Diplomatic Service in accordance (House of Commons) with the recommendation in paragraph 34. Mr. Ian Lloyd asked the Minister 543 of the Report of the Plowden Com of Public Building and Works whether mittee. he will make arrangements for digital Mr. Boyden : My Department arranges clocks, reading in seconds, minutes and instruction for staff taking up duty as hours, to be installed in the Chamber administration officers as a part of the of the House of Commons, in addition training course organised by the Diplo to the conventional clocks already matic Service Administration Office. This installed. instruction covers the Ministry's organisa Mr. C. Pannell : This is a matter for tion and procedures relating to building the authorities of the House, but I will and supply services as well as estate discuss it with them. matters ; it includes some advice on 159 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 160 leasing and the assistance needed from Mr. K. Robinson: No. I am not in administration officers prior to the pur- any case aware that there is land surplus chase of accommodation by the Ministry, to hospital requirements at the hospitals the invitation of tenders from local mentioned. contractors for minor repairs and the maintenance of inventories and financial Teaching Hospital, Sheffield (Fuel) procedures. 54. Mr. Kelley asked the Minister of 54, Parliament Street Health, what were the factors which were taken into consideration by him when Mr. Blenkinsop asked the Minister of he gave approval to the plan to heat the Public Building and Works what new teaching hospital at Sheffield with additional desk places are now available oil, rather than coal. to hon. Members in 54, Parliament Street. Mr. K. Robinson: A11 relevant factors, Mr. C. Pannell: 47, of which 11 are in particular the limitations of this re as yet unallocated. stricted site. Kensington Palace (Apartment lA) Venereal Disease (Immigrants) Mr. William Hamilton asked the Minis 55. Sir C. Osborne asked the Minister ter of Public Building and Works why the of Health if ihe is aware that 52·8 per cent. provisional estimate of £50,000 to be of all male patients at venereal disease spent on Apartment I A at Kensington clinics are immigrants ; how many people Palace has increased to £72,600 ; and if are under NationaJ Health Service treat he will give an assurance that this will be ment for these diseases ; from what coun the final cost. tries they come; how long approximately Mr. C. Pannell: £50,000 was a pre they have been in Great Britain ; and if liminary estimate made in 1960. When he will make a statement. the contract was let in January, 1962, the Mr. K. Robinson : The hon. Member is estimate was £65,000. Since then the esti under a misapprehension. The figure he mate has risen to £72,600 partly because quotes relates not to the number of all of increases in wages and in cost of male patients under treatment at clinics, materials, and partly to meet outstanding but to a sample of male cases of gonor claims. rhea only treated in 1961. A similar Until the claims are settled, I can give study in 1964 gave a figure of 49·6 per no assurance on the final cost. cent. National statistics do not show the number of persons under treatment at MINISTRY OF HEALTH any one time nor the country of origin nor length of stay in this country. Hospital Property 52. Mr. Buxton asked the Minister of Respiratory Diseases, Northern Health whether he will seek to alter the Region method of dealing with land and property Mr. Randall asked the Minister of belonging to hospitals, whereby the pro Health if he will make a statement on the ceeds of sales of these assets may not be incidence of respiratory diseases in the devoted to hospital improvements but Northern Region ; and to what extent the must be returned to the Treasury. increased cosrt per prescription in t!he Mr. K. Robinson : I do not think that region can be a,ttributed Hospital Year Manage- ment Committee 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 1 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 163 64 65 Rochdale and District 2 - I I - I I - I 1 - I I - I - - - Bury and Rossendale 3 - I l 2 I 1 2 I 1 2 I I 3 . I 1 3 1 Oldham and District... 2 - - 2 - - 2 - - 2 - - 2 - - I - I I Note In a few cases a member when re-appointed to the Hospital Management Committee may have ceased to be a Council member since his first appointment: these cases cannot readily be distinguished. Post-Graduate Medical Education Mr. K. Robinson : I regret that detailed Mr. Bishop asked the MimiSlter of information on the progress of post Health if he will state, for each regional graduate medical educa.tion is not yet hospi,tal board area, how many district availa.ble im this form. The improvement general hospitals are conduotiing continu of facilities continues and I shall be con ing post-graduate medical education sidering plans for more comprehensive courses, meetings, demonstrations and development as they are submitted by ward rounds; how many have appointed boards in response to the circular. clinical tutors as envisaged in circular HM(64)69 ; how many have established Nurses' Hours a medical library with textbooks and a full range of journals, together with a Mr. Lomas asked the Minister of lecture room, medical oerutre, as envisaged Health what action he proposes to take in circular HM( 64)69 ; and in each to ensure that hospital authorities imple regional hospital board area what addi ment the decis•ion of the Nurses and Mid tional faci),ities in each group are expected wives Council to introduce an 84-hour to be opened during the nexrt 12 months. fortnight by 1st January, 1966, for all 163 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 164 whoJe-time nursing and midwifery staff boards to carry out their planning employed in hospitals and institutions. functions and I am opening discussions with the bodies concerned to consider Mr. K. Robinson : Hospital authorities what form this should take. have been asked to implemelllt the de cision by that daite and earlier where pos sible. Additional money has been pro vided to assist them in meeting the cost of MINISTRY OF LABOUR doing so. Labourers, Glasgow (Wage Rates) Mr. Lomas asked the Minister of 57. Mr. Carmichael asked the Minister Health to what extenrt hospital authori of Labour if he will state the current ties have implemented the 84-hour fort we-ekly wage ra:te for a light labourer in night as the 42-hour week for nursing the Glas,gow area; approximately how staff. many men are working for this rate regularly wi,tbout overtime ; ancl. how this Mr. K. Robinson : The latest available wage has changed over the past five information for September, 1964, shows years. that rut that time the 84-hour fortnight had been implemented for about one-third Mr. Thornton : Collective agreements of the number of whole-time hospital do not in general specify rates for light nursing and midwifery staff. Further labourers. The nationally agreed mini progress reports will shortly be received. mum weekly time-rate for an adult male labourer in engineering in the Glasgow area is 179s. 8½d. but the minimum Hospital Services, Central earnings level is 184s. 4d. Five years London ago the comparable minimum weekly Mr. Pavitt asked the Minister of rate was 157s. 8-}d. Information is not Health whether he has completed his avaiiable about the numbers of men review of the hospital services in Central receiving only the minimum, without London ; and if he will make a overtime, but in January, 1965, the statement. average earnings of unskilled time workers (including lieu workers) in the Mr. K. Robinson: I have completed engineering industry in Scotland as a a preliminary review and have decided whole were 232s. for a normal week of that further des,ignations of non-teaching 41 hours. hospitals as pa,rts of teaching hospital groups are right in principle, where they will improve hospital services in the area Road Haulage Workers and conform with the responsibilities of Mr. Ian Gilmour asked tihe First Secre boards of governors for clinical teaching. tary of State and Secretary of State for Where designations involve the taking Economic Affairs into which category of over of a district responsibility I shaH exceptions to Her Majesty's Government's requi.re an undertaking from the board of incomes policy, as outlined in paragraph governors that it will provide a full range 15 in the White Paper on Prices and of services for the pistrict, in agreement Incomes Policy, the increase in salary of with the regional hospital board. 6 per cent. for 200,000 road haulage If further desiignations are made, a workers, to take effect from 9th June, time will come when the hospital services 1965, comes. of Central London are provided, to a Mr. Thornton: I have been asked to very great ex,tent, by teaching hospitals. reply. This would make it difficult if not impossible, under existing arrangements, The Road Haulage Wages Regulation for the Metropolitan regional hospital Order fixing new s-tatutory minimum boa-rds to carry out their statutory rates from 9th June gives effect to function of planning the hospital and unanimous proposals from the Road specialist services over the whole of Haulage Wages Council. It is for those Central London. concerned to explain these proposals in relation to the policy set out in the White I consider that formal consultative Paper which was agreed with representa machinery should be_set up to assist these tives of management and unions. 165 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 166 formed United Nations along the lines BOSSARD CASE set out · in the encyclical of Pope John 60. Commander Courtney asked ithe XXIII entitled Pacem in Terris. Secretary of Sitate for Foreign Affairs if Mr. Padley : As has been made clear he will reveal ,the ,identity of the member in previous statements in the House, it of the Soviet diplomatic mission men is the policy of Her Majesty's Govern tioned in ,the Bos-sard case, his diplomatic ment to work to strengthen the United sta-tus and his daite of depanture if be bas Nations. My hon. Friend said on 7th now left the coullltry. December, 1964, that in the belief of Mr. Walter Padley: It would not be in the Government, the United Nations was the public interest ,to reveal these details the hope of the human race and a power but there is reason to believe that the ful instrument for constructive change. Russians meilltioned in the Bossard case He also said that we should be ready left this country over a year ago. at any time to look at proposals which are practicable, in agreement with our friends and allies, to improve the Charter SOMALIA and organisation of the United Nations. 61. Mr. Brian Harrison asked the The encyclical Pacem in Terris lays Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs special stress on the need for world peace whether he will use the good offices of and security and the safeguarding of the United States Government, represent human rights. My right hon. Friend ing Her Majesty's Government in Somalia, informed the House in a statement on to advise the Somali Government thait Her 23rd February of Her Majesty's Govern Majesty's Government is prepared to ment's determination that tJhe United resume relations without precondi,tions. Nations should be enabled to fulfil its Mr. Padley : I do not think it necessary. task of keeping the peace and improv The Somali Government are already ing conditions of human life. aware of our viewpoint. PAPAL ENCYCLICALS SOVIET UNION 64. Mr. E. L. Mallalieu asked the (INTENDING VISITORS) Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs 62. Commander Courtney asked tJbe what machinery exists in his Department Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if for the receipt and study of papal he will draw the attention of intending encyclicals. British visitors Ito the Soviet Union, and Mr. Padley : The texts of papel particular heads of organised in the encyclicals are sent Majesty's parties, danger of taking into by Her to the the Minister the Holy See to the Foreign Union of Soviet Socialist Republics appar at ently innocuous correspondence and litera Office where they are studied in the light ture from former Soviet and other foreign of his comments. nationals now resident in the United Kingdom. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC Mr. Padley : W,hen intendmg v1s1-tors to the Soviet Union consult the Foreign Mr. Ennals asked the Secretary of Office, it is already the practice to advise State for Foreign Affairs what is the them against taking hterature, correspon policy of Her Majesty's Government con dence and parcels on behalf of third cerning recognition of the new Govern pamies. But I am grateful to the hon. ment of the Dominican Republic. and gallant Member for giving me an Mr. Padley: As my right hon. Friend opportunity to make this advice more informed the House on 12th May, the widely known. Government of the Dominican Republic, which was previously recognised by Her UNITED NATIONS Majesty's Government, disintegrated when the rebellion broke out on 24th 63. Mr. E. L. Mallalieu asked the April. Neither of the two claimants who Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if have solicited recognition at present he will press for the creation of a re- meets our usual criti;ria. /67 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 168 Mr. Ennals asked the Secretary of preventing the discharge of oil, on which Staite for Foreign Affairs what resolution considerable progress has been made in was passed by ,the United Nations recent years. Local authorities already Security Council on 4th May on the sub- possess powers under which they can ject of the Dominican Republic ; and clean beaches that have become polluted. how the British representative voted. Mr. Padley : No resolution on the Forestry Commission Dominican Republic was passed by the (Costings Branch) Security Council on 4th May. The only 68. Mr. Solomons asked the vote .taken on this subject in the Council Minister of Land and Natural Resources so far was a unanimous one on 14th what steps the Forestry Commission is May which called for a striot cease-fire taking to establish a costings branch. and invited the Secretary General to send Mr. Skeffington : As my hon. Friend a representative to the Dominican Repub will see from Observation 20 in the lic to report back on ,the situation there. Eighth Special Report of the Estimates Committee, the Forestry Ministers have BRITISH COUNCIL agreed to establish a costings branch. Sir G. Sinc1air asked the Secretary of Th~s is now being done. State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the increasing demand for the teaching of Forestry Commission English in most developing counitries, (Sale of Timber) and in view of the outstanding contribu 69. Mr. Solomons asked the Minister tion of the British Council to meeting this of Land and Natural Resources what demand, if he will ensure that the Coun steps he is taking to promote the sale cil has funds to expand this service. of timber by the Forestry Commission. Mr. Padley : Her Majesty's Govern Mr. Skeffington : The Forestry Com ment recognises the increasing demand mission will continue to sell in the best for English language teaching and are available markets all the timber they willing to offer all practicable help using produce. The arrangements outlined in the resources of the British Council and the Forestry Ministers' observations on other agencies active in thi1: field. The the Seventh Report from the Estimates British Council's resources have been Committee are designed to assist this considerably expanded in the last few process. In particular, part-time Com years to enable them to recruit the missioners with commercial experience specialist staff needed to meet this and experuence of the timber trade, will demand. In deciding the scale of the be appointed ; and a full-time Commis British Council's grant-in-aid, however, sioner will be appointed as Head of Har it is necessary to take il11to account the vesting and Marketing. various competing pressures on the over seas balance of payments. NATIONAL FINANCE LAND AND NATURAL Carlton House Terrace RESOURCES 71. Sir L. Thomas asked the Chan Beaches (Pollution) cellor of the Exchequer what is the nature 66. Mr. Hector Hughes asked the of the work now being carried out at Minister of Land and Naitural Resources Carlton House Terrace ; how much it if he is aware that the beauties of Great will cost ; and when it will be finished. Britain's coastline are being marred by Mr. Diamond : Carlton House Terrace quantities of oil discharged by tankers is part of the Crown Estate under the and other ships, and that although some charge of the Crown Estate Commis of such oil was recently cleared away by sioners. The current work there consists Her Majesrt:y's ships, much still remains of the renovation (within the existing as a menace to bathers and holiday framework) of a number of the houses makers ; and if he will introduce legisla by selected tenants for club and institu tion to purify British beaches. tional use and provision by the Commis Mr. Skeffington: The main objective sioners themselves of a garage for the must be to press on with measures for use of the te~ants in the lower part of 169 Wri11e11 Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 170 the Terrace along The Mall west of the by the hon. Member but actual payments Duke of York Steps. The garage should made during the period October, 1964, be completed in July. The cost to the to March, 1965, were some £700 less than Commissioners of about £100,000 will be during the same period a year previously. met out of Crown Estate funds, on which it is expected to recover a reasonable Information Officers (Recruitment) return from the garage lettings to tenants. 76. Mr. Alison asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what practice is Information Officers (Course) observed in advertising vacancies in the 72. Mr. Ridsdale asked the Chan senior ranks of the information services. cellor of the Exchequer what arrange Mr. Diamond : Permanent officers are ments the Government has made for recruited by the Civil Service Commis training courses for civil servants em sion: the vacancies are always advertised. ployed in the information services ; and Temporary officers are recruited by if he will make a statement. Departments and advertising is a matter Mr. Diamond : In June the Treasury for their discretion. will run an experimental course for recent entrants to the Information Officer Ministers (Official Residences) Class in Departments other than the Mr. Mitchell asked the Chancellor of Central Office of Information. The the Exchequer on what amounts mem C.O.I. already runs short courses for its bers of Her Majesty's Government are new staff. taxed under Section 47 of the Finance Act, 1963, in respect of their official Home Information Services residences. (Co-ordination) Mr. Diamond : I cannot disclose in 73. Mr. Dodds-Parker asked the Chan formation about the Income Tax treat cellor of the Exchequer what is the ment of individual taxpayers, but for a current annual cost of co-ordinating great many years the occupation of these home information services ; and whether residences has been treated as " repre he is proposing any increase. sentative" in character. Mr. Diamond: This is part of the normal machinery of Government. No Overseas Investment separate identifiable figure of cost is available. Sir G. Sinclair asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will initiate 75. Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles asked a study by economists in order to assess the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the short and fong-term direct and in improvements are intended in the co direct effects of British private invest ordination of home information services ment in the developing countries on on the recruitment of personnel for Great Britain's balance of payments. Government service. Mr. Callaghan : I am considering Mr. Diamond: None. various suggestions which have been made for inquiries into the subject of overseas investment and will take the Office of the Paymaster-General (Telephone and Postage Expenditure) hon. Member's proposal into account. 74. Mr. Robert Cooke asked the Chan Government Publications (Indexes) cellor of the Exchequer what increase in expenditure on communications ser Mr. Sheldon asked the Chancellor of vices has taken place in the Department the Exchequer if he will make sure that of the Paymaster-General in the six as far as is practicable all Her Majesty's months since October, 1964, as compared Stationery Office publications have with the same period a year previously. indexes. Mr. Diamond: I assume that the hon. Mr. MacDermot : Her Majesty's Member has in mind the expenditure of Stationery Office do, whenever practic the Office of the Paymaster-General on able, inolude indexes in it:he more substan telephones and postage. The Post Office tial and important Government publica accounts for these services cannot be tions. But there are many hundreds of related precisely to the periods quoted publications each year in pamphlet or 171 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 172 booklet form where it would be un at a memorial service at Brookwood necessary and wasteful. Military Cemetery on Sunday, 9th May; If the hon. Member will let me know and whether he will make a statement. of any publications which be considers Mr. George Thomas : The Chief should have been provided with an index Constable of Surrey informs my right I shall be glad to look into the matter. hon. and learned Friend that a uni formed police inspector removed this wreath with the acquiescence of mem HOME DEPARTMENT bers of the Association and later replaced Civil Defence (Recruits) it. 77. Mr. Peter Mills asked the Secre Advisory Committee on Juvenile tary of State for the Home Department Delinquency (Dissolution) what part the information services are playing in advertising for recruits to Civil Mr. Oakes asked the Secretary of State Defence. for the Home Department whether he has reached a decision on the future Mr. George Thomas : They assist in of the Advisory Committee on Juvenile arranging a recruiting campaign each Delinquency. year. Sir F. Soskice : The Committee was Police Forces (Recruitment) set up by my predecessor to enable him to inform himself of the views of a wide 78. Mr. Clark Hutchison asked the variety of persons who are in close Secretary of State for the Home Depart touch with different aspects of the prob ment what assistance is given by the lem of delinquency. I have studied the Central Office of Information to recruit proceedings of the Committee and con ing advertisements by police forces out sidered the replies of members to a letter side the Metropolitan area. in which I invited them to give their Mr. George Thomas: The Central views on the Committee's future. After Office of Information assist in arranging careful oonsideration I have reached a national advertising campaign to stimu the conclusion that the immediate pur late recruitment into police forces in pose for which the Committee was estab England and Wales. At the request of lished has been served and that I should the Home Office the Central Office of not be justified in making further Information have also given general ad demands on the time of the members, vice to a few individual forces conducting to all of whom I am extremely grateful. local campaigns. I have accordingly decided to dissolve the Committee. Naturalisation (Fee) I have concluded that the two sub Sir A. Meyer asked the Secretary of committees appointed by the Committee State for the Home Department whether should not continue after the dissolution he will reduce the naturalisation fee for of the Committee. I should like to thank aliens who served in the Allied Forces particularly those members who engaged during the 1939-45 War. in the work of ithe sub-commiJttees Mr. George Thomas : My right hon. one of which continued to meet and learned Friend does not consider until recently to study the problem of that it would be practicable to give the transition from school to work, and preferential treatment to any particular collected valuable evidence. This evi category of applicants for naturalisation. dence will be forwarded to the existing advisory bodies concerned with youth Association of Czechoslovakian employment, careers guidance and other Legionaires (Wreath) services for the age group as a whole. 79. Sir F. Bennett asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he MINISTRY OF AVIATION will call for a report from the Chief Constable of Surrey about the circum Gatwick (Aircraft Noise) stances in which the Surrey Police 80. Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of removed a wreath laid by the Asso Aviation what steps he is proposing to ciation of Czechoslovakian Legionaires take to limit the noise of aircraft using 173 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 174 Gatwick Airport between the hours of atmospheric variations and ground reflec 23.30 hours and 00.60 hours. tion effects on the type of sonic bangs Mr. Stonehouse : At Gatwick all air produced under different conditions and •craft are already required, when both by different aircraft. landing and taking off, to follow routes As regards engine noise, the Concord which avoid, as far as possible, flying over engine development programme includes built-up areas and flying unnecessarily work both in industry and at the National 1ow. In addition, jet aircraft taking off Gas Turbine Establishment designed to from Gatwick are required to use a climb ensure that noise is kept within tolerable out procedure designed to keep distur limits. Various forms of noise sup bance to a minimum. For the present I pressors for incorporation in the engine do not consider that these measures need are being investigated. to be supplemented. Other programmes of work on these subjects are in hand in France and the 81. Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister United States and information is of Aviation what study he has made of exohanged freely in most areas. the steps taken by the French airport authoriities ail: Orly, Le Bourget and Nice to limit night take-offs by jet aircraft ; Eurocontrol (Report) and whether he will make similar arrange Mr. Robert Howarth asked the Minis ments at Gatwick Airport. ter of Aviation what arrangements have Mr. Stonehouse : I am aware of the been made to keep Parliament informed restrictions on night jet take-offs at these of the activities of the European Organi airports but at Orly and Le Bourget sation for the Safety of Air Navigation, exceptions are frequently made. For Eurocontrol. .example, last summer there were 2,308 Mr. Roy Jenkins : Copies of the first jet movements between 23.00 and 07.00 Annual Report of the Eurocontrol hours at Orly (867 of them take-offs) and Organisation have been placed in the this is a much greater number of night Library of the House. This Report, which jet movements than we expect at Gatwick has recently been issued, summarises the this summer. Night jet movements at ~ctivities of Eurocontrol during 1963. Gatwick will, in due course, have to be controlled, as they are at Heathrow, but I do not think any such action is called for at present. MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT Cars (Safety Belts) Supersonic Aircraft (Noise) 82. Sir B. Janner asked the Minister of Mr. Varley asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the rise in the rate Aviation what research is going on, or is of accidents in the last two months, contemplated, to ensure thait when super whether he will now make it compulsory sonic air liners are regularly operational for all motor cars to be fitted with safety the noise from them is kept within toler belts. ·able limits. Mr. Tom Fraser: I cannot add to the Mr. Stonehouse : Fundamental work Answer given on 10th March to my hon. on the subjective effects of sonic bang Friends the Members for Dover (Mr. type noise is in progress at the National Ennals) and Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Physical Laboratory and at the Medical Heffer). Research Council's Applied Psychology Research Unit. Field work on a rather larger scale is contemplated, if a method Vehicle Licence (Renewal) of simulating sonic bangs using explosives Sir M. Galpem asked the Minister of can be perfected by the Explosives Transpofll: if he will take steps it:o make Research and Development Establish the 14 days of grace period statutory, so ment. Further live tests with supersonic that no action can be taken against a aircraft are under consideration. At the motorist who uses his car during this same time theoretical work is continuing period without a current road fund at the Royal Aircraft Establishment to licence, provided he renews it within 14 -increase our knowledge of the effects of days of the expiry of the last licence. 175 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answe1s 176 Mr. Tom Fraser : No. I know of no case where proceedings have been taken ROADS against a motorist who has renewed with in 14 days of the expiry of a previous Lancs-Yorks Motorway Junction, licence, and I therefore see no reason for Heywood legislation for the purpose suggested. Mr. Barnett asked the Minister of Transport, in view of ,the concern felt by residents of Heywood at it.he possible use Railway Closures of the main street as a feeder road for the Lancashire-Yorkshire motorway, if he Mr. Galbraith asked rthe Minister of will make an early decision on this Transpom how many railway closure pro matter ; and if he will make a statemen,t. posals were awaiting Ministerial decision Mr. Tom Fraser : I am proposing a and how many were with the Transport junction of the Lancashire-Yorkshire Users' ConsuLtative Committee on 15,th Motorway and the A.6046 south of Hey Ootober, 1964; how many proposals are wood. This will be included in a draft at present wilth rthe Transpom Users' Con Order to be published shortly under suLtative Committee; how many have Section 13 of tihe Highways Act, 1959, been passed for ministerial decision since which will be open to objection for the 15th October; and of rthese, how many statutory period of three moI]jbhs after have been refused, how many consented publication. I will make my decision on to, and how many still awailt decision. this matter after tlhe close of this period, Mr. Tom Fraser: On 15,th Ootober, in the light of any represenitaitions I there were 95 proposals under considera receive. tion by transport users' consultative com mittees and 34 proposals with the Minister Safety (Speed Limits) for decision. Since thart darte committees Mr. Molloy asked the Minister of have reporrted on 73 proposals, and I have Transport what special measures are to given consent to a total of 18 proposals be taken to increase safety on the roads and refused consent rto 5 otlhers. Of 84 during the period of summer traffic. proposals on which committees have re ported but which remain undecided, I am Mr. Tom Fraser : There will be a awaiting further information from rthe general speed limit of 50 m.p.h. during committees concerned or the Railways the Whitsun weekend. It will be imposed Board in about 30 cases. from noon on Friday, 4th June to mid night on Monday, 7th June on a,H roads, other than on dual carriageways and British Road Services motorways and roads already subject to a permanent speed limit. My right hon. Mr. Ron Lewis asked the Minister of Friends the Secretary of State for Scot Tran•spoDt how many extensions to rthe land and the Secretary of State for Wales British Road Services subject to his con have agreed that the same measures will trol over investment or borrowing, are be adopted in Scotland and Wales. This proposed during the ne~t few months ; and general speed limit wi-11not be indicated how many firms at the moment are in by traffic signs, but will be given full pub negoti.aition for take-over by British Road licity through Press advertising at Whit Services. suntide. Mr. Tom Fraser : 1t is the Government's A further measure is that, based on our wish thart the TrnnspoDt Holding Company experience of the experimental 50 m.p.h. should pursue an active policy of expan summer weekend speed limits over the sion and they will acquire other businesses last five years, a 50 m.p.h. speed limit where llbey consider iit advantageous to wiH be imposed from July onwards on do so in the normal course of business stretches of single carriageway road in and where this can be freely negotiated. England and Wa1es amounting in total But they do not have ,to obtain my oonserut to about 500 miles, which have the worst in every case and !it is not possible to accident records throughout the year. This forecast how many suoh acquisitions will is intended to remain permanently in take place. lit: would be collJtrary to the force. It will operate 24 hours a day, illJterests of the company to say how many seven days a week, and will be indicated negotiations were at present in progress. by road signs. 177 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 178 will be published this week and used to ECONOMIC AFFAIRS supplement publicity already given by the Department, the farming organisations Information Leaflets and t:he Press. 83. Mr. Alison asked the First Secre tary of State and Secretary of State for Long Newnton and Westonbirt, Economic Affairs if it is the Government's Gloucestershire (County Boundaries) policy to continue publication by the Mr. Kershaw asked the Minister of information services of the leaflets en Housing and Local Government when he titled "Broadsheets on Britain" . proposes ,to lay an Order dealing with Mr. Albu : Yes, a new series of alterations of county boundaries at Long " Broadsheets on Britain " will be pub Newnton and Westonbirt, Gloucester lished shortly by the Department of shire. Economic Affairs. Mr. Crossman: I intend to lay an Order dealing with these and other county Price Increases boundary alteraitions in the South-W es,t Mr. Bruce-Gardyne asked the First Sec in time to enable the changes to be retary of State and Secretary of State for brought into opemtion on l,9t April, 1966. Economic Affairs whether the National Board for Prices and Incomes will be empowered to consider and comment HOUSING upon the share of responsibility of Her Majesty's Government for the price in Leasehold Enfranchisement creases which have been referred to it Mrs. Thatcher asked the Minister of or may be referred to it in future. Housing and Local Government what representations he has received and what Mr. Foley : The Board's powers would consultations he has had with persons permit this if it were relevant to its and bodies having an interest in the terms inquiries. and conditions upon which certain lease holds are to be enfranchised ; what con Wage and Salary Increases clusions he has reached as a result of his Mr. McMaster asked the First Secre negotiations ; and whether, in view of the tary of Stail:e and Secretary of State for mounting uncertainty, he will make a Economic Affairs which of the wage and statement or issue a White Paper giving salary increases negotiated during the past fuller details of his proposals. six months he intends to refer to the Mr. Crossman: I have received repre National Prices and Incomes Commis sentations from several sources follow sion. ing my statement in the House on 8th Mr. Foley : My right hon. Friend is December, 1964, and these are being con considering what further references sidered. I recently asked a number of should be made 10 the Board. landowners for their comments on lease hold enfranchisement in order to assist me in formulating proposals for legisla LOCAL GOVERNMENT tion. Several of them have not yet replied, and I have not so far embarked Water Resources Act, 1963 (Circular on any negotiations. and Leaffet) 84. Mr. Jopling asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether MINISTRY OF DEFENCE the circular dealing with the general pro visions of the WaJter Resources Act, 1963, Ret:ruitment concerning licensing of abstractions and 85. Mr. Allason asked the Secretary tbe leatl,et directed to the farming com of State for Defence what steps Her munity have been published ; and what Majesty's Government is taking to co form of circulation they have had. ordinate information services to Govern Mr. Mellish: Circular 34/65 about ment Departments on the availability of licensing under tbe Water Resources Act manpower for recruiting. was published on 30th April. A short Mr. Mayhew : I assume the hon. Mem leaflet about the main points of the system ber's question relates to recruiting for the 179 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 180 Armed Forces. In the Ministry of and bow he estimates this will compare Defence, we consider tri-Service problems with the next six months. in the recruiting field on a co-ordinated Mr. Hoy: During the six months from basis. October, 1964-March, 1965, the imports of eggs in shell and egg produots into the Gurkha Troops, Malaysia United Kingdom have been as follows: (Barracks) Thousand Mr. Brian Harrison asked the Secre Great Thousand tary of State for Defence what accom Hundreds* Tons £'000 modation which is occupied by Gurkha Eggs in Shell... 1,092·2 7·3 1,096· l troops as barracks in Malaysia is hired Egg Products "(including at British expense ; and when these leases dried frozen will expire. and liquid al- bumin) 6·8 1,717·0 Mr. Mulley : Eight properties in Malaysia, three in Sabah and five in TOTAL 14· l 2,813 · l Sarawak, are hired at British expense to accommodate Gurkha troops. The * 1 Great Hundred = 120 eggs. tenancies on which they are held are all While it is not possible to make precise terminable at a quarter's notice. estimates, we do not expect any material change during the following six months ending 30th September, 1965. HOMOSEXUAL OFFENCES Mr. Bellenger asked the Attorney COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS General which cases involving homo sexual offences have been referred to the East and Central Africa (Indians Director of Public Prosecutions by ohief and Pakistanis) constables since 28th July, 1964, when a Sir J. Fletcher-Cooke asked the Secre statement was made by the then Attorney tary of State for Commonwealth Relations General ; and with what result. how many people whose origins are in The Attorney-General : Between 1st the Indian sub-continent and who hold August, 1964 and 30th April, 1965, chief United Kingdom passports are at present constables have reported 76 cases to the in East and Central Africa. Director of Public Prosecutions in which Mr. Bottomley : Holders of British pass prosecutions for homosexual offences ports with origins in the Indian sub have been under consideration. These continent are not distinguished from other offences were either alleged to have been holders of British passports in the statis committed between consenting adults in tical reports. The best information avail pruv,ate or rto have been comm~tted more able from census reports and other staitis than twelve months previously or to have tics is that there are approximately been disclosed in a complaint against a 300,000 citizens of the United Kingdom blackmailer. Of rthe 76 cases reported, and Colonies of Indian or Pakistani prosecutions were brought in 27, involv origin in East and Central Africa. There ing a total of 52 persons, of whom 46 are, in addition, small numbers of British were convicted ; it was decided not to subjects without citizenship of the same institute proceedings in 22 cases. The origin who are eligible to hold British remaining 27 cases are still being dealt passports. with. EDUCATION AND SCIENCE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, National Youth Orchestra FISHERIES AND FOOD Mr. Pounder asked the Secretary of Imported Eggs State for Education and Science whether Mr. Chichester-Clark asked the Minis he is yet able to announce an additional ter of Agricu1ture, Fisheries and Food grant for the National Youth Orchestra. what is the value and volume of eggs, Mr. Crosland: I have received no whether in liquid or other form, imported application for grant for the National into this country in the last six months ; Youth Orchestra. Proposals were put 181 Wrirren Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 182 to the Department recently in respect of Professor J. C. Mitcheson, C.B.E., the National Junior Music School and Department of Mining and Mineral are under consideration. Technology, Imperial College of Science and Technology (University of Retired Teachers London). Mr. Longden asked the Secretary of Mr. N. A. F. Rowntree, Director of State for Education and Science how the Water Resources Board. many teachers who are still alive retired and received a pension in each year Professor S. K. Runcorn, Depart since 1930 ; what is the total sum being ment of Physics, University of paid to such retired teachers in each of Newcastle upon Tyne. such years ; and how many of these pen sioners are not also entitled to a Professor J. H. Taylor, F.R.S., National Insurance pension. Department of Geology, Kings College, University of London. Mr. Crosland : This information is not immediately available. I will write to Professor V. C. Wynne-Edwards, the hon. Member as soon as possible. Department of Natural History, Marischal College, Aberdeen. Natural Environment Research Council Dr. C. M . Yonge, C.B.E., D.Sc., F.R.S., Department of Zoology, Glas Mr. Tinn asked the Secretary of State gow University. for Education and Science if he will make a statement about the membership A Charter incorporating the Council and scope of the Natural Environment has been approved by the Queen in Research Council. Council. It is hoped that the Council wiII come into formal existence on 1st Mr. Crosland : I have appointed the following to be members of the Natural June, when the relevant provisions of Environment Research Council under the Science and Technology Act, 1965, will be brought into force by Orde( in the chairmanship of Sir Graham Sutton: Council. Mr. F. C. Bawden, F.R.S., Director of the Rothamsted Experimental The Council will be respo~11ible for Station (Lawes Agricultural Trust). supporting and undertaking research in Sir Edward Bullard, Ph.D.. Sc.D., earth sciences and ecology. It wi11 take F.R.S., Professor of Geodesy and over responsibility for the Nature Con Geophysics, Cambridge University. servancy, the Geological Survey and Professor A. R. Clapham, Ph.D., Museum (with which will be amal F.R.S., Department of Botany, gamated the Directorate of Overseas Sheffield University. Geological Surveys, at present under the Professor F. K. Hare, Ph.D., LLD., Ministry of Overseas Development, in Department of Geography, University accordance with the recommendations of London (King's College). of the Brundrett Committee on Techni cal Assistance for Overseas Geology and Professor J. E. Harris, F.R.S., Mining), the Hydrology Research Unit Department of Zoology, Bristol and the National Institute of Ocean University. ography. It will also take over the pre Lord Howick of Glendale, G.C.M.G., sent responsibillities of the Development K.C.V.O. Commission in relation to fisheries re Professor M. V . Laurie, O.B.E., search and allied subjects, will assume Department of Forestry, Oxford financial and policy responsibility for the University. research now carried out by the Meteoro logical Office in seismology and geomag Professor M. J. Lighthill, F.R.S., netism, and will co-ordinate research in Royal Society Research Professor, meteorology generally with that carried Imperial College of Science and out by the Meteorological Office ; it wiLI Technology (University of London). be responsible for the support of long Professor J. H. Taylor, F.R.S., term forestry research, in consultation Department of Geology, Kings College, with the Forestry Commission. The University of London. Council will have power to make research 183 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 184 and postgraduate training awards in all Mr. Joseph Slater : The figures for the the subjects which it covers. It will work past two years ending 31st March are through subordinate committees respon as follows: sible for each of the main activities con 1964 22 cerned and based, where appropriate, on 1965 17 the body now responsible for the field in question. At 30th April, 1965, there were three outstanding applications awaiting cus The Chairman, has, with my approval, tomers' convenience. appointed Mr. R . J. H. Beverton, M.A., Deputy Director of the Fisheries Labora WIRELESS AND TELEVISION tory of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at Lowestoft, to act Television, Swansea as Secretary of the Research Council. Mr. Alan Williams asked the Post This appointment will be submitted for master-General how wide an area could the Council's ratification in due course. be covered by a television relay station Mr. Beverton will spend a substantial on Kilvey Hill in Swansea. amount of his time on the work of the Mr. Joseph Slater: My hon. Friend has Council in the period before it comes into in mind, I understand, that the broad formal existence. casting authorities are considering Kilvey The Headquarters office of the Coun Hill as a possible site for a relay station. cil is being established in State House, The extent of the coverage that any such High Holborn, W.C.2. station might attain would be a matter for them in the first place. Grammar School Places Mr. Alan Williams asked the Post (Droylsden, Ashton-under-Lyne, masrt:er-General whait investigations have and Mossley) been made of sites in Swansea for a British Broadcasting Corporation tele Mr. Sheldon asked the Secretary of vision relay station. State for Education and Science (1) what is his estimate of the proportion of Mr. Joseph Slater: I understand that schoolchildren in Droylsden who obtain the B.B.C. has been carrying out studies grammar school places ; of reception conditions in the area. The Corporation will, I am sure, be glad to (2) what is the proportion of school let my hon. Friend have the information children in Ashton-under-Lyne who he seeks. obtain grammar school places; (3) what is the proportion of school children in Mossley who obtain grammar MINISTRY OF PENSIONS AND school places. NATIONAL INSURANCE Old-Age Pensioners, . Mr. Crosland: I understand from the Carlisle local authority that the proportions this year are as follows : Mr. Ron Lewis asked the Minister of 27· 1 per cent. Pensions and National Insurance what Droylsden ... is the approximate number of old-age Ashton-under pensioners in the city of Carlisle. Lyne 20·3 per cent. Mr. Pentland : I regret that statistics Mossley 29·8 per cent. relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for parti cular areas. POST OFFICE Telex Instruments, Belfast SCOTLAND Mr. Rafton Pounder asked the Post The Highlands (Tourism) ma~er-General ithe number of Telex Mr. Russell Johnston asked the Secre instruments installed in Belfast in each tary of S~ate for Scotland whether, in of the past two years ; and how many view of the proximity of the tourist sea applications are still outstanding. son, he will now make a statement on 185 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 186 his plans to deal with the problems effort in the main receiving countries ; created by the termination of the special and to what extent she is able to use the Highland Area Fund grant to tourist experience of officers of Her Majesty's associations. Overseas Civil Service who had carried Mr. Ross : I am not yet in a position out development programmes in the field to add to the Answer I gave to the right and had been responsible for co-ordinat hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland ing them. (Mr. Grimond) on 7th April. Mrs. Castle : One of the main objects of my pohcy is to achieve effective co ordination of our aid effort both here and OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT on the spot. In independent countries this is done by our Ambassadors and Aid Programme High Commissioners. A considerable Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of number of officers serving on their staffs Overseas Development if she has made have a background of Her Majesty's sufficient progress in her task of ration Overseas Civil Service experience among alising the control of aid to recommend an their qualifications. increase in the volume of Government aid to the developing countries. Technical Assistance (Recruitment) Mrs. Castle : My review of the aid programme will be completed shortly and Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of I will publish a White Paper in due Overseas Development, in view of the course. I have no statement about policy need of experienced men and women in to make at present but the hon. Member the field of technical assistance, what will be glad to know that our gross dis steps she is taking to keep in touch with bursements of aid increased from £159 the people that her Department now helps million in 1963 to £190 million in 1964. to recruit for work in developing countries. Loans, Grants and Technical Assistance Mrs. Castle : Under existing arrange Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of ments all those we recruit are asked to Overseas Development, in view of the contact my Ministry on their return to difficulties that many developing countriies Britain and let us know whether they are have in servicing and repaying external interested in further overseas employ loans, if she will confine future direct ment, but I feel that more could and British loans to such countries to projects should be done to keep in touch with that can be expected quickly to yield them during their period of service over direct earnings sufficient to service the seas and I am examining ways in which loans and repay capital ; if, apart from this can be achieved. such loans, she will provide aid mainly in the form of grants ; and if she will Teachers (Recruitment) give increasing priority to technical assis tance. Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of Mrs. Castle : I would refer the hon. Overseas Development, in view of the Member to the reply I have just given shortage of teachers in the United King to his earlier Question. I cannot, for the dom and the need for teachers in the reason given, make any statement at developing countries, what further steps present about the future proportions of she will take to encourage recruirt:ment for loans and grants. I can confirm that I overseas service, to keep in touc!h with attach the greatest importance to tech teachers while they are overseas to nical assistance. ensure that, when they return, their new experience is put to use within the home Aid (Co-ordination) educational system. Sir G. Sinclair asked the Minister of Mr. Oram : The need of ,the developing Overseas Development in view of the countries for teachers is so urgent, and shortage of economists with experience yet the overall number required is so relevant to conditions in developing coun small in relrution to the to.tal teaching tries, what arrangements she is making strength in th.is country, that, by agree to co-ordinate on-the-spot British aid ment with my right hon. Friend the -- --, 187 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 188 Secretary of State for Education and ported during 1964 ; and what proportion Science, I am seeking by all media of of the United Kingdom's total import bill publicity to increase recruitment ror this represents. teaching overseas despi,te our own shortages. My Ministry has recently Mr. Redhead : £265·9 million and 4·7 assumed responsibiliity for the National per cent. Counchl for tihe Supply of Teachers Earl of Dalkeith asked the President Overseas on which tihe local education authorities as well as the recruiting of the Board of Trade what was the cost agencies are represented. The Council's of timber and processed timber imported new film about the life of a teacher over in 1964 from the Commonwealth, Euro pean Free Trade Association, Soviet bloc seas " And gladly would he learn " is now be,ing widely shown throughout the countries and other countries, respec country. The first edition of the Council's tively. new bulletin " Overseas Challenge " has Mr. Redhead : The information is as just been circulated through local educa follows: tion authorities to schools throughout the Value • united Kingdom. I shall continue to Area £ million confer wLt'h the Council on other metlhods c.i.f of bninging to the notice of British Commonwealth 75·2 E.F.T.A. 84·6 teachers the chall-enge of serving for brief Soviet Union and Eastern Europe* ... 68·6 periods on contract with the Governments Rest of World 37·5 of developing countries. * Soviet Union, Eastern Germany, Poland, Local education authorities have agreed Hungary, Czecho-Slovakia, Albania, Bulgaria to second their teachers for service over and Roumania. seas whenever possible, thus maintaining contact with them and guaranteeing them Earl of Dalkeith asked the President posts on their return to this country. of the Board of Trade what proportion Links between local education authorities of the total value of timber and pro in Britain and education authorities over cessed timber consumed in the United seas, such as the links which the Inner Kingdom in 1964 was produced in the London Education Authority have re United Kingdom. cently established with Northern Nigeria Mr. Redhead : I regret that the infor and the Sudan, are particularly valuable mation requested is not available, but I and my Ministry gives them support. am writing to the hon. Member to ex Teachers going overseas under the plain what statistics can be provided. auspices of my Ministry are asked to let us know, shortly before their contracts Earl of Dalkeith asked the President come to an end, whether they desire a of the Board of Trade what has been the further period of service overseas or annual rate of increase in the value of whether they are returning to teach in timber and processed timber consumed Britain. Any teacher who has been short in the United Kingdom in each of the listed for a promotion post in Britain can past 10 years ; and whether he expects attend for interview by availing himself this trend to continue indefinitely. of an Interview Fund which pays for all travel costs, less £20. Mr. Redhead: I regret that the infor I like to think that teaching in this mation requested is not available, but I country is being enriched by the return am writing to the hon. Member to ex of several teachers annually from short plain what statistics can be provided. spells of service in various developing countries overseas. Earl of Dalkeith asked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the 100 years needed by trees to reach BOARD OF TRADE maturity, what estimate he is worknig to of the United Kingdom's requirements Timber of timber and processed timber in the Earl of Dalkeith asked the President of year 2065 in terms of present-day values, the Board of Trade what was the total and assuming the same ratio of imported cost of timber and processed timber im- to home-produced timber as at present. r 189 Written Answers 17 MAY 1965 Written Answers 190 Mr. Redhead: No estimate has been imports valued c.i.f. and exports plus made of the United Kingdom's require re-exports valued f.o.b.) was £57·5 ments of timber and processed timber in million ; imports of timber and pro the year 2065. cessed timber totalled £50·5 million. Anglo-Soviet Trade Coal Exports Earl of Dalkeith asked the President Mr. Bishop asked the President of the of the Board of Trade if he will give Board of Trade what is the total finan figures showing the relationship between cial contribution to Great Britain's the United Kingdom balance of trade export trade as a result of all coal deficit with the Union of Soviet Socialist exports since the nationalisation of the Republics in 1964, and the total cost industry. of timber and proceed timber imported from the Union of Soviet Socialist Mr. Redhead : Exports of coal (not Republics during that period. including coke and briquettes) totalled Mr. Redhead : In 1964, the adverse £650 million between 1st January, 1947, trade balance (i.e. the difference between and 31st March, 1965.