Oral History Interview with Dean Fleming, 2013 August 6 and 7
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Oral history interview with Dean Fleming, 2013 August 6 and 7 Funding for this interview was provided by Stoddard-Fleischman Fund for the History of Rocky Mountain Area Artists. Contact Information Reference Department Archives of American Art Smithsonian Institution Washington. D.C. 20560 www.aaa.si.edu/askus Transcript Preface The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Dean Fleming on August 6-7, 2013. The interview took place in Libre, Colo., and was conducted by Elissa Auther for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Stoddard-Fleischman History of Rocky Mountain Area Artists project. Dean Fleming has reviewed the transcript. Many of his corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Interview ELISSA AUTHER: This is Elissa Auther talking to Dean Fleming at Libre, near Gardner, Colorado, in the Huerfano Valley. It's August 6, 2013. Dean, when were you born, and where were you born? DEAN FLEMING: I was born on October 1st, 1933, in Santa Monica, California. And the early years of my life were spent mostly at the beach, learning to surf and learning to play in the water. My mother was a wonderful renaissance lady. She was in theater, and she'd been in many big plays. And she also played the classical violin and sang, and she was a poet, and she painted. So she did definitely contribute to my feeling that it was available. [Laughs.] My father, on the other hand, was an engineer at Douglas Aircraft Company. And he became a significant factor in the company for many, many years and designed some very great airplanes. But he was an engineer, and he wasn't even vaguely subjective about anything. [Laughs.] My mother was almost a hundred percent subjective. So I had this nice balance. And the other thing that was interesting was my father's family was all from England, from Devonshire. And even though they had moved to Hollywood, and they were part of the whole British scene in California, they didn't actually let go of any of the British—so, for example, my grandfather had this great radio, and he just listened to the BBC. He would not listen to any American broadcast whatsoever—they were just lying and they weren't very smart. So he had this whole British thing, which I found pretty interesting as a kid. We went to the cricket matches every Sunday, and we went to the soccer matches. I marched in the parades with my kilts, in a Scotch outfit with the bagpipes and—so that was kind of neat. I liked the exoticness of that in California. It had nothing to do with surfing. Meanwhile, my mother's family, my grandmother had a boarding house in Venice. It was in the '30s, and she was probably the most spiritual person I ever met in my whole life. She was so neat, she had filled up her house with all these kind of refugees from the Dust Bowl and from the privations of the '30s. It was really a rough time. She often wouldn't collect rent from these various people because they didn't have it. She fed them, and that was her whole trip. That was a very different kind of down home Venice Beach scene in high contrast to the British in Beverly Hills. That was my upbringing. My mother was classically trained. In our house we had many fine art books of Rembrandt and Rafael and Michelangelo. And I would look at these books as a child, but I didn't connect to them even a little bit. As I got more into thinking of devoting my life to painting, I thought this is not something I'm going to do. [Laughs.] I mean, okay it was already done in the sixteenth century, but it was not the ideal art to me. And basically, what was most influential was the comic books. Every Sunday I'd avidly read the Sunday funnies and get all these different comic books. The first art that I did was very young, probably 3 or 4 years old—I can't remember now how old I was, but I can only remember doing that drawing from the time I was able to hold a pencil. ELISSA AUTHER: So you copied—you tried to copy or you made your own? DEAN FLEMING: No, no, no. I didn't copy anything ever in my entire life. [Laughs.] That didn't seem like— necessary either. If I wanted to be a commercial cartoonist, it would have been very wise to learn how to do that, but I just very little tampered with that idea. And the cartooning was the joy of my life. It had to do with having a piece of paper, a piece of cardboard, whatever it was, in front of me and putting something on there that would change the universe. The illusion of that was so significant that it stayed with me my whole life. And I think that that rapport with just myself, alone, and that piece of paper, whatever it was, and my crayons—that was a different world, a meditative world. And the first studio that I ever had, I was probably 11 years old, but it was under the stairway in this old house that we had. Nobody wanted that space, so I cleaned it out, put a light bulb and a table and a chair, and that was it. Nobody could come in there. You couldn't get two people in there anyway, but they didn't come in. This was where I could have that relationship that was hugely vital to me. ELISSA AUTHER: That's where you did your cartooning? DEAN FLEMING: Yes. I had a comic strip that I did regularly. It had all these adventures. So as I got older, as I got into high school, the cartoons which I did for the school paper and the yearbook and for posters, for people who were running for things, and campaigns and so forth, I did all this cartooning. But the idea being a cartoonist, a commercial cartoonist, just never really came up. And meanwhile, neither did it come up that I should do something funny. [Laughs.] I just thought, "Fine art is over there, and this is what I'm doing over here, and I'm not even really doing that in the sense of that being my profession." I was kind of keeping it at a distance. During the Second World War, my father was vice president of Douglas in Washington, D.C., and his job was mainly to sell planes to the allies and to the Air Force and the Army and the Navy. He was very busy that way. And I just want to put a plug in for Smithsonian because that was, by far, the most significant place that I could go as a child was the Smithsonian. And now, at this point in my life, I've been very involved in Native American activity, but my first real look at it was in the Smithsonian, where they had these dioramas where the figures were maybe two inches tall, and it would be this whole Indian village with the teepees and the little fire and the horses going in the river and it was so incredible for me as a 8-year-old kid, 9-year-old that liked looking at this. And I loved it. I loved it. I could spend hours and hours. So my mother said, "Oh, I'll be back in an hour." [Laughs.] I wouldn't have moved very far. [They laugh.] ELISSA AUTHER: How many years did you live in Washington, D.C.? DEAN FLEMING: Well, during the war, four years. Actually, my father was not happy there. He was not a politician, and it was super-political job. All these people that were working for him were trying to get rid of him because they wanted the job. [Laughs.] He hadn't had that kind of thing; as an engineer, you'd call the best minds you've got, and you all work on the project together, and you throw out your ideas. And in the politics of Washington, that was the last thing you're going to do, telling anybody what you really were up to. [Laughs.] I saw my family was really falling apart there. It was very unfortunate. But I just kept cartooning the whole time. I was very fascinated by comic books and Plastic Man. And with—all these kind of characters that were mainstream, like Superman and Batman seemed really dumb to me. ELISSA AUTHER: So you liked Plastic Man. DEAN FLEMING: I liked Plastic Man a lot. [Laughs.] ELISSA AUTHER: Were there any others? DEAN FLEMING: The Spirit. The Spirit was such great drawing. And I could just look at those for hours and hours. Even during the Second World War, some friends and I [… –DF] put all our comic books [together –DF], and we said it's a lending library, then all of the kids would come and take the books and bring them back [… –DF]. ELISSA AUTHER: So it sounds like the dioramas that you were looking at, they had a similar immersive quality to them that you liked—to the comic books.