the early breakfasts in NYC at the Olympic a director who is unversed in musical Diner on 49th and 8th, and later years at terminology and procedure, and perhaps Shutters in Santa Monica. You must attend… self-conscious about it, I will try to be their that is, if you want to go to the Meat Dinner advocate—asking the composer the questions after the final dub. We’ve been to most of that I believe they are trying to ask, and the famous steakhouses in NY and L.A. It is letting them know they have an ally in the also the event, if there is a candidate who has room. Visits to the editorial rooms, away completed ten Coen films, that the Golden from the composer’s studio, help foster this Porridger Award is given out, a statue of a relationship. Eventually—when I am the sole man holding a victorious bowl of oatmeal advocate of the music on the dub stage—this above his head. I received their second connection pays off, as I am more likely to offering in 2008, the first having gone to be heard when representing the composer’s Skip Lievsay. interests and intentions. The Coens are not micro managers, but rather let each person in their field Caruso: In film the music editor’s role is of expertise have the freedom to manage much greater than in TV. That is especially whatever might be at hand. I can always call so if you have created the temp. You have them at a moment’s notice to talk over ideas established a rapport and relationship with and creative challenges. both the picture editor and the director. If you’ve done the temp, you have insight on SCORE: Can you describe some aspects of your what works for them in a scene and what role as a creative liaison between director and doesn’t; you’ve been in a room with them and composer? seen their body language and hopefully have a feel for what they are looking for. What FROM LEFT: Bill Bernstein, Johnny Caruso, Joanie Diener, and Todd Kasow Diener: Often I’ve been in a situation in you choose for the temp sometimes ends up which a director is expressing what he or she helping to decide who is asked to score the SCORE: How do you approach your role as a Kasow: It goes both ways. A composer’s needs or likes/doesn’t like, but it’s generally film. If the director hears something he really music editor? vision to the director and director’s vision to described in terms of drama and story. I feel I loves that resonates with him, that might do it. the composer. Usually there needs to be some have an aptitude to translate those wishes into MUSIC EDITORS: The first task of the music hand-holding in the beginning. The ultimate musical terms. Or…sometimes a director tries SCORE: Does your role as the creator of the Bernstein: editor is to make sure the needs of both goal is to get the flow going both ways to speak in musical terms without knowing temp track ever conflict with your role as the the composer and the director are being because each side may mistrust the other. how to, and so I try to translate those ideas composer’s ally? A ROUNDTABLE met. The trouble, of course, is that these Both sides can be untrusting of the other, or into workable musical ideas. Occasionally, needs are often contradictory. There is a give in too easily, when there actually might composers have actually asked me to temp Diener: If the composer has been hired by with BILL BERNSTEIN, JOHNNY CARUSO, tricky dynamic at the core of the composer/ be the need for a little friendly tug of war to some cues to demonstrate (if the director isn’t the time I create a temp, I definitely try to director relationship: a composer—one who get the best product. already pointing to my temp). consult to get his or her vision for the score. JOANIE DIENER, and TODD KASOW hasn’t become cynical about the process— As a music editor, developing a dialogue and Being a classically trained musician and I have to synthesize that with the director’s doesn’t want their composition treated like a “vocabulary” where both sides feel comfortable singer/songwriter myself, I’ve always been vision and even my vision. Occasionally there INTERVIEWED BY MARK SUOZZO AND RON SADOFF commodity. They design the music not only to honestly share their thoughts and ideas very sensitive to the composer and the have been conflicts: A long time ago I did a to fulfill a dramatic role but to have artistic is my goal. The film is best served once that integrity of the music. I also love filmmakers, big orchestral temp on a film (a Christmas We sat down with four leading music editors to discuss their craft, value. However, as the music is commissioned process gets going. A by-product of this back so I actually love being able to thread that movie), but it turned out the composer’s the business—and their magical art in fostering communication and for a specific purpose, it is to some extent and forth is that they are both getting more needle and help in any way that I can—be it to deal was basically for a synth score with collaboration between composers and directors. We spoke about how exactly a commodity. A director will treat the and more familiar with the music and picture help the director see why a musical approach guitars. The studio was not expecting the big, music like sound effects or ADR or any other marriage; hence new ideas develop. works or to help a composer realize the heartfelt orchestral temp but loved it so much the technological pace of picture editing has transformed the industry tool—theirs to cut, change, and re-edit to director’s vision without sacrificing quality that they renegotiated the composer’s deal to and impacted their use of demos, stems, and temp tracks, for both TV their liking. They may even express surprise SCORE: Todd—with Carter Burwell and Skip or intention. allow for a bigger orchestral score. Another and film. Vast databases of “tagged” music from hundreds of scores and that a composer would object to having their Lievsay, you’ve worked on every Coen brothers time, a composer I worked with for years music essentially recomposed on the dubbing film. Can you give us a sense of how that Bernstein: Luckily for me, Thomas Newman called me one day—exasperated—saying he sources allow the music editor immediate access to a world of music. stage. Fortunately, the music editor is there collaboration has endured? is an excellent communicator and has much had to rewrite this big set-piece cue for the Picture editors, too, may begin their work on the film using their own to represent the composer at this crucial experience in dealing with personalities. fourth time because of my “damn” temp cue libraries of music—investing the film with a musical signature—or at point. If a director requests a change to a Kasow: Stepping into the Coens’ workplace, He is usually able to establish a personal that worked so well. cue it is the editor’s duty to fully understand there is a freedom to say anything that comes relationship with a director, and they see least a point of departure from which the director/composer/music what they want and try to execute it, while to mind. Sarcasm abounds and jokes are early on how conscientiously he approaches Caruso: I think my role as the composer’s ally editor conversation can develop. maintaining as much musical integrity and as plentiful. This openness flows to everyone on the work. is the most important part of the job. With Our roundtable revealed aspects of our music editor’s much of the composer’s intention as possible. the job and makes for a wonderfully creative But it is still critical for me, as the music that said, there was one project I was working If you disagree with the director’s idea, you environment. And as the years roll by, we editor, to establish my own relationship with on and the director loved the temp. He tried multidimensional perspectives—as a storyteller in facilitating the perform it anyway, and present alternatives. all know each other’s trials and tribulations the director and gain their trust. In cases to license it and couldn’t afford the versions director’s vision; a musical curator on behalf of the composer; and often Compromise is the name of the game, and the about what life has brought us. New kids, where a director is reluctant to confront a used in the temp. He hired a legendary an intermediary, answering to both director and composer, in best music editor becomes the mediator. relationships, life’s milestones. Of the utmost composer about an issue, I must make sure composer to write the score. He also had me importance is the oatmeal breakfast that takes they know that their interests are understood document everything I used in the temp, and serving the film. place before the first day of the final dub: and addressed. If we have a meeting with then had the temp score recreated. Therefore,

24 I SUMMER 2020 2020 SUMMER I 25 the license he required was for publishing Diener: I have always approached temps as Caruso: In film, especially if you are doing creative energy into whatever I work on, in situations where I’ve had to compare director is resistant to the music, then one rights only, but not for the master rights if I was composing the score myself. Thanks several previews, you’re conforming a lot be it a big film, an indie film, a TV movie/ the composer’s approach with a different must be sympathetic (even if they are dead (should he decide to use the temp). It was a to non-destructive digital editing (and the of the cues. Conforms can be brutal because miniseries or pilot. Actually, pilots can be the approach (a temp cue I did to satisfy the wrong) and carefully explain the options huge session; I carried the redone temp, the lower cost of large hard drives), my choices when the scene is recut, sometimes it ends up craziest of all because so much is riding on director) and have used my own words to moving forward. The objections must then composer’s score, as well as a lot of source. for temp have probably expanded (access to telling a different story, but everyone is used the music—and usually it’s temp music that talk a director out of a different approach or be relayed to an invariably unhappy composer I was really happy when the director went more music, and storage of said music). If to that cue. So that’s a whole other tightrope has to help sell the show. I did a pilot last year to convince the director that the composer’s to whom negative feedback means many entirely with the composer’s score. Once that anything, I probably offer more choices for to walk, and it’s a lot of work usually under a with a wonderful director and producers. For approach is better and why it is. additional hours of work, as well a sense tone became established, he started to fall in temp cues than I used to in the old days (I go very short deadline. a TV pilot, one usually goes through several of rejection. One gets to experience the back to editing on mag) especially if I have Source is also different in features. The displeasure of both parties! love with that, and we were able to drop the different versions: editor’s cut, director’s cut, Bernstein: Occasionally, when a director temp. It served its function as a safety net, started with a blank slate. There are many budgets are bigger, and featured songs can producer’s cut, studio cut—and finally, for the can’t come to the composer’s studio, it falls But there is nothing more fulfilling than and the director was smart enough to see the ways to approach score! Plus, if there are really be featured getting 5.1 splits of different network. All of this happens in a very small to the music editor to expose the director representing music which enhances a film value of consistency and one voice. choices, then the director feels like he or she elements of the songs and creating a really time frame, so it can be more stressful than a to the music—much of which has not been and brings new understanding to its story and has “chosen” one (psychological warfare!). spacious mix that lets them shine. You’re similar workflow on a feature (three weeks as fully fleshed out. This can be a diplomatic characters. This has been my great fortune SCORE: Over the past decade, have you Sometimes the film editor has thrown music working with the mixer, too, to make certain opposed to three months). TV final mixes are task: giving the proper disclaimers while still more often than not in working with Tom experienced significant changes in the way in, and if some of the music is going to stick, sections really pop. much shorter than for feature. Since ProTools providing an enthusiastic presentation. If the [Newman] over the years. you approach temp tracks? Are they a result of I usually have to fix it and smooth out edits. I’ll mainly speak to series television. In a became standard on the dub stage, extensive industry changes and/or technology advances? If that is the case, I also try to choose other series, I think one is more a pair of hands and editing/re-editing happens throughout the music that is in the same sonic family. The a sounding board and organizer, especially final mix—and doesn’t stop until someone THE PANEL technology itself has also allowed me to be for the first season or two. The first big Caruso: Advances in technology—as iTunes says we have to finish and print master! This began to carry scores and purchasing scores more creative with temp tracks: It’s much difference is in TV the temp is usually done holds true for TV as well as features. BILL BERNSTEIN online became easy, the technology has made easier to facilitate mixing and matching of by the picture editor or the picture assistant. Before Bill Bernstein was a music editor, he worked as a computer programmer and cues thanks to plug-ins, which allow for pitch The composer is developing the library as it easier to find scores and to suggest ones Caruso: I have worked on a bunch of Netflix helped design “Streamline,” a computer-based digital metronome and streamering I might not have thought of. It has made shifting, speed varying, etc. We can also add he scores the show. You get cues with the and Amazon shows, and most of them have system for film scoring, which garnered him an Academy Technical Achievement it easier to find less well-known scores by bits of MIDI (when an existing cue might not elements split out into stems. You can try had a budget from a music editor for the Award. Working primarily with composer Thomas Newman, Bill has amassed many composers I like. Some composers have have everything that’s needed). tracking cues early on, but very often it’s not entire process. The budgets are a little lower, credits including The Shawshank Redemption, Finding Nemo, and Skyfall. He has won posted their scores on a server that they until you’re three to four episodes deep in the and sometimes they will try and get you to two Grammys and several Golden Reel Awards, and while he enjoys his Pro Tools, he frequently update, so that staying current SCORE: Let’s talk a bit about your work in TV. season that you begin to track much. take a package deal rather than a weekly occasionally pines for the days of sprocketed film and synchronizers. with their work is also easier to do. Having Has the proliferation of films and television I found that I would build databases of the salary. There have been a couple of shows I cues listed by their names on iTunes makes series, now produced by streaming media cues and label the characters and emotions know of where I was asked to just build it for JOHNNY CARUSO searching for the appropriate tone easier. “studios” like Netflix and Amazon, afforded of the scenes (e.g., “Drive to the Country,” the dub and run the dub, but those have been Johnny Caruso began his career as a bassist/composer in NYC. He toured and recorded If I’m looking for something specific, I can composers’ budgets that include a music editor? or “Noah Finds Alison”). By doing that, I more the exception and usually very low- with artists as diverse as Meatloaf, Rupert Holmes, and Gilda Radner. His love of film use that as a keyword, and find bunches of created a document that I also shared with budget productions. brought him to Los Angeles and music editing. options; e.g. type in “walk and talk” in iTunes Kasow: One of the big misconceptions is that the assistants so they could reference the He has worked on over 70 features with such directors as Oliver Stone, John Dahl, and you come to a cue in Bridget Jones’s Diary composers have to include music editors in characters’ themes, and so could I when I was SCORE: Could you recount some ways that Adam Shankman, Jon Avnet, and Tyler Perry, and had the privilege to work with Oscar called “Walk and Talk.” their budget. The music editor is part of the doing the tracking later in the first season you have facilitated the acceptance of the winning and nominated composers Maurice Jarre, Marco Beltrami, Jan Kaczmarek, and On a “do-the-work level” being able to add post-production budget, not the composer’s and when I started doing more in the later composer’s approach? And for the director, Luis Bacalov. He also has had long working relationships with Marcelo Zarvos, Aaron pads and transpose cues has made looking budget. However, the composer usually has seasons. There are also some composers who how do you bridge that transition from the Zigman, and most recently, Michael Yezerski. for things in particular keys less important, the final say in choosing the music editor. have their team and write everything for temp to the score? though I am probably going back farther than every episode. No matter how you slice it JOANIE DIENER Of course for me, anything I’ve though, you still have to know the library and After earning her B.M. in Music at UC Berkeley, Joanie continued her graduate studies ten years when I talk about that, but using Diener: Kasow: There was a time when there were plug-ins to create tails or effects to transition worked on means there was a budget for a be able to find alternates quickly on the stage, very few or no temp scores, because there in musicology at Boston University. Having spent a number of years as a singer/ out of a cue has made things easier. music editor. Generally, the music editor as almost inevitably there are some cues that were no audience previews—or studio songwriter, her love of film led to her present career as a music editor. does not come out of the composer’s package, you are asked to change. committees overseeing the score. I remember The recipient of thirteen MPSE Golden Reel Award nominations, Joanie has won although it’s possible that it’s a part of what Schedules for TV are much shorter than five times for Music Editing. She also won a Primetime Emmy Award for Hemingway & Kasow: There’s been a move in the last few our crew flying to Italy to listen to Ennio years to have composers do their work in a the filmmakers allotted for the music budget. in features. Here you’re turning over 35 Morricone in his home playing his themes on Gellhorn, scored by Javier Navarrete. timely manner to alleviate the need for temp I would say “yes” to your question mostly minutes of music, having addressed changes the piano, over and over again, until everyone Recent films include Words on Bathroom Walls (August 2020 release) scored by The scores. The bump in this is that many, if because there has been a lot more product and dubbing them in ten days to two weeks. knew them and had figured out where they Chainsmokers with Andrew Hollander, and Wander Darkly (Sundance 2020) scored by not most, picture editors these days rely on to work on due to all of the streaming media In a feature you’re on for six months and would go. Alex Weston. music to cut to. Not all picture editors are this “studios” and viewing platforms. Mind you, often longer, and in that time you’re looking there are probably a lot of micro-budget at about 90 minutes of music being written. TODD KASOW has over 120 films to his credit, including a 30-year collaboration way, and in past generations the norm was a Caruso: When the composer is chosen, you picture editor using his or her visual rhythm projects that do not properly budget for music When you’re tracking cues in TV, you’re present his cues to the director; you mix them with Carter Burwell and the Coen brothers. A master music editor, he is able to act as to cut the picture. I personally found music editorial. It usually boils down to the overall doing the same thing, but because of the rapid in and do a show and tell. You also take the a creative producer on the scoring stage, as well as the score mix studio. Among the “fit” much better in this work style. I recently budget of the project. It seems that Netflix turnaround time you take the splits (or stems) themes being tried out and track the demos in directors he’s worked with are Ethan and Joel Coen, Alan J. Pakula, Martin Scorsese, recommended this to a very renowned and Amazon are allowing for music editors in and rearrange the cues, and often that is what spots where he might not have imagined. You Todd Haynes, Bill Condon, Robert De Niro, and Ted Demme. He’s worked with such director, and he really balked at the idea. But their budgets. gets dubbed. might also take a cue that’s been rejected in composers as Carter Burwell, Elliot Goldenthal, Howard Shore, Alexandre Desplat, a few weeks later he said he had tried it and one spot of the film and find a different scene Nicholas Britell, Terence Blanchard, Burt Bacharach, and Gil Evans. For the past seven was amazed how much “fluff [he] was able to SCORE: Could you outline some major Diener: I always say that editing for TV is that it will work under. years, Todd has also been giving back to the next generation, teaching Music Editing for remove and better the flow of the picture.” differences of what you encounter in the same as features, except there’s less time Motion Pictures at NYU. television, as opposed to film? and less money. I’m not as familiar with the Remember, editing picture to music “boxes Diener: I have mostly tried to use my own in” the composer. current episodic workflow. I put the same powers of verbal persuasion! I have been

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