VICfORIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FIFfY-SECOND PARLIAMENT

AUTUMN SESSION 1993

Legislative Assembly

VOL. 412

[From 6 May 1993 to 20 May 1993J

MElBOURNE: 1.. v. NOR11l, GOVERNMENT PRINTER

The Govemor His Excellency the Honourable RICHARD E. McGARVIE The Lieutenant-Govemor His Excellency the Honourable SIR JOHN McINTOSH YOUNG, AC, KCMG The Ministry [AS FROM 9 NOVEMBER 1992] Premier, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs.... The Hon. J. G. Kennett, MP Deputy Premier, Minister for Police and ... The Hon. P. J. McNamara, MP Emergency Services, Minister for Corrections, Minister for Tourism Minister for Industry and Employment . . . . The Hon. P. A. Gude, MP Minister for Roads and Ports ...... The Hon. W. R. Baxter, MLC Minister for Conservation and Environment, The Hon. M. A. Birrell, MLC and Minister for Major Projects Minister for Public Transport...... The Hon. A. J. Brown, MP Minister for Natural Resources...... The Hon. C. G. Coleman, MP Minister for Regional Development, ...... The Hon. R. M. Hallam, MLC Minister for Local Government Minister for Education...... The Hon. D. K. Hayward, MP Minister for Small Business, and Minister . . The Hon. V. P. Heffernan, OAM, MP responsible for Youth Affairs Minister for Community Services, and. . . . . The Hon. Michael John, MP Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs Minister for Housing, and Minister for. . . . . The Hon. R. I. Knowles, MLC Aged Care Minister for Agriculture...... The Hon. W. D. McGrath, MP Minister for Planning...... The Hon. R. R. C. Madellan, MP Minister for Industry Services...... The Hon. Roger Pescott, MP Minister for Energy and Minerals, and. . . . . The Hon. S. J. Plowman, MP Minister Assisting the Treasurer on State Owned Enterprises Minister for Sport, Recreation and Racing. . The Hon. T. C. Reynolds, MP Minister for Finance...... The Hon.!. W. Smith, MP Treasurer ...... The Hon. A. R. Stockdale, MP Minister for Tertiary Education and ...... The Hon. Haddon Storey, QC, MLC Training, Minister for the Arts, and Minister for Gaming Minister for Health...... The Hon. M. T. Tehan, MP Attorney-General, Minister for Fair...... The Hon. J. L. M. Wade, MP Trading, and Minister responsible for Women's Affairs Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet..... The Hon. Rosemary Varty, MLC

FIFTY-SECOND PARLIAMENT-FIRST SESSION

Members of the Legislative Assembly

Member District Party Member District Party Andrianopoulos, Alex Mill Park ALP McLenan, Frederick Peter Frankston East LP Ashley, Gordon Wetzel Bayswater LP Mac1ellan, Robert Roy Pakenham LP Baker, Ian Malcolm John Sunshine ALP Cameron Batchelor, Peter Thomastown ALP MeNamara, Patrick John Benana NP Bildstien, Craig Step hen Mildura LP Marple, Ms Carole Frances Altona ALP Brown, Alan John Gippsland West LP Maughan, Noel John Rodney NP Clark. Robert William Box Hill LP Micanef, Edward Joseph Springvale ALP Coghill, Dr Kenneth Alastair Werribee ALP Mildenhall, Bruce Allan Footscray ALP Cole, Neil Donald Melbourne ALP Napthine, Dr Denis Vincent Portland LP Coleman, Geoffrey Charles Bennettswood LP Pandazopoulos, John Dandenong ALP Cooper, Robert Fitzgerald Mornington LP Paterson, Alister Irvine South Barwon LP Cunningham, David John Melton ALP Perrin, David John Bulleen LP Davis, George Ian Essendon LP Perton, Victor John Doncaster LP Dean, Robert Logan Berwick LP Pescott, Roger Mitcham LP Delzoppo. John Edward Narracan LP Peulick. Mrs Inga Bentleigh LP Dolls, Demetri Richmond ALP Phillips, Wayne Eltham LP Doyle, Robert Keith Bennett Malvern LP Plowman, Anthony Fulton Benambra LP Elder, Step hen Noel Ripon LP Plowman, Sidney James Evelyn LP Elliot, Mrs Lorraine Clare Mooroolbark LP Reynolds, Thomas Carter Gisborne LP Finn, Bernard Thomas Tullamarine LP Richardson, John Ingles Forest Hill LP Christopher Roper, Thomas William Coburg ALP Garbutt, Mrs Sherryl Maree Bundoora ALP Rowe, Gary James Cranbourne LP Gude, Phillip Archibald Hawthorn LP Ryan, Peter Julian Gippsland South NP Haerrneyer, Andre Van Yean ALP Sandon, Malcolm John Carrum ALP Hamilton, Keith Graeme Morwell ALP Seitz, George Keilor ALP Hayward, Donald Keith Prahran LP Sercombe, Robert Charles Niddrie ALP Heffeman, Vincent Patrick. Ivanhoe LP Grant OAM Sheehan, Anthony John Northcote ALP Henderson, Mrs Ann Mary Geelong LP Smith, Ernest Ross Glen Waverly LP Honeywood, Phillip Neville Warrandyte LP Smith, Ian Winton Polwarth LP Hyams, Anthony Jonathan Dromana LP Spry, Garry Howard Bellarine LP Jasper, Kenneth Step hen Murray Valley NP Steggall, Barry Edward Swan Hill NP Jenkins, Geoffrey Paul Ballarat West LP Hector John, Michael Bendigo East LP Stockdale, Alan Robert Brighton LP Kennan, James Harley, QC Broadmeadows ALP Tanner, Edgar Miles Caulfield LP Kennett, Jeffrey Gibb Burwood LP Ponsonby Kilgour, Donald Shepparton NP Tehan, Mrs Marie Therese Seymour LP Kirner, Ms Joan Elizabeth, Wtlliamstown ALP Thompson, Murray Hamilton Sandringham LP AM Thomson, Kelvin John Pascoe Vale ALP Leigh, Geoffrey Graeme Mordialloc LP Thwaites, Johnstone William Albert Park ALP Leighton, Michael Andrew Preston ALP Traynor, Barry Edward Ballarat East LP Loney, Peter James Geelong North ALP Treasure, David Lewis Gippsland East NP Lupton, Hurtle Reginald, Knox LP Turner, Maxwell John Bendigo West LP OAM,JP Vaughan, Dr Gerard Marshall Clayton ALP McArthur, Step hen James Monbulk LP Wade, Mrs Jan Louise Murray Kew LP McGill, Mrs Denise Oakleigh LP Weideman, George, Graeme Frankston LP McGrath, John Francis Warrnambool NP wens, Kimberley Arthur Wantirna LP McGrath, William Desmond Wimmera NP Wllson, Mrs Janet TIndale Dandenong North ALP Calder

FIFTY-SECOND PARLIAMENT-FIRST SESSION Speaker: The Hon. J. E. OELZOPPO Chairman of Committees: Mr J. F. McGRAlH Temporuy Chairmen of Committees: Or Coghill. Mr Coopet; Mr Cunningham. Mr Jasper, Mr Maughan. Mr Perrin, Mr Richard50n, Mr E. R. Smith. Or Vaughan. and Mr Weideman Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal Party and Premier: The Hon. J. G. KENNETT Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal Party: The Hon. P. A. GUDE Leader of the Parliamentary National Party and Deputy Premier: The Hon. P. J. McNAMARA Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary National Party: The Hon. W. O. McGRA lH Leader of the Parliamentary Labor Party and Leader of the Oppwition: The Hon. J. E. K1RNER. AM [Until 30 March 1993) The Hon. J. M. KENNAN, QC (From 30 March 1993) Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Labor Party and Deputy Leader of the Opposition: The Hon. J. M. KENNAN, QC [Until 30 March 1993) Mr R. C. G. SERCOMBE [From 30 March 1993)

Heads of Parliamentary Departments

Council-Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk of the Legislative Council: Mr A. V. Bray Assembly-Clerk of the Legislative Assembly: Mr J. G. Little, JP Hansard-Chief Reporter: Mr Eric Woodward Library-Librarian: Mr B. J. Davidson House-Secretary: Mr W. F. McKelvie

ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1649 many honourable members know, between 1982 and commission to have a goal other than the issuing of 1988, before his election Parliament, the honourable press releases from time to time. member worked in the office of the Minister for Ethnic Affairs and, although he has been subjected I turn to clause 5 headed ''Functions of the to vicious attacks from time to time in this Commission". The clause would have been drafted place-- by bureaucrats, much to the chagrin of the Parliamentary secretary. The functions of the Mr Hamilton - All undeserved. commission have been made so general that it is not accountable for anything. As a bare minimum, Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - He has been specific requirements should be placed on the attacked particularly by people like the honourable commission to achieve its objectives. If the objectives member for Forest Hill. He was the dynamo in the are watered down there is no need to have a Minister's office that drove ethnic affairs and the requirement on the commission to achieve its commission throughout that decade. objectives.

Basically the Bill jeopardises all the achievements of Clause 6 makes it abundantly clear that: the Ethnic Affairs Commission during the past 10 years. It attempts to modify the commission in The Commission must comply with any directions such a way that it renders it useless. It strips it of its given to it in writing by the Minister. independence and of its resources, and in the future it will achieve virtually nothing. Under the principal Act the commission had some autonomy to initiate matters and report to the The Bill removes any provision of resources for the Minister. That function has been omitted from the commission. The commission may not have Bill. If the government had not guillotined the resources to pay for someone to take minutes of debate I would have proposed an amendment that meetings. I see the Parliamentary secretary smiling; I would have introduced a clause to give the know when he makes his contribution to the debate commission some autonomy to initiate matters itself. he will tell the House about the ethnic affairs unit in the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. The Under clause 10 the commission cannot hold a commission will be under the control and direction meeting without the approval of the Minister. That of the Minister. Until 1 October last year the is extraordinary! The clause allows for six meetings a commission had the resources for a full-time year. Clause 10(2) allows the commission to hold chairman, a deputy chairman and a secretary. The meetings only upon the authority of the Minister. Bill not only reduces the membership of the The Parliamentary secretary may argue that commission from 13 to 7 members, but provides for clause 10(3) allows the commission to hold a at best a part-time chairman. meeting within 3 days if more than half the members request a meeting. What commission Mr Honeywood interjected. would go against the wishes of its Minister or would have the gall to conduct such meetings if it were Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - I have read the Bill. aware that the Minister did not want it to hold The Parliamentary secretary should understand meetings? Clause 10 more than any other clause what is contained in it. Clause 4 purports to contain illustrates the degree of independence of the the same words as the principal Act, with the commission: there is none. exception that it inserts the word "promote". Under clause 8 the commission will have at best a Mr Honeywood - What is the difference? part-time chairman and may have a part-time deputy chairman, although that is not spelt out. No Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - It is a fundamental doubt the deputy chairman will hold only an difference. The Act allowed the commission to fully honorary position and be paid a meeting allowance participate in and to provide access to mainstream or whatever form of payment the government services to the ethnic communities. The Bill waters chooses for attending meetings. that down; it requires the commission only to promote ideals. A part-time chairman and Clause 12 illustrates that the government is not commission will Occasionally issue press releases serious about delegation because it is worded in saying, "You are important to us. We want you to be such a way as to provide that the commission will involved". There is no requirement on the meet from time to time and: ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1650 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993

may delegate any of its functions to a sub-committee of some 90 bodies and more than 50 different ethnic its members or to any of its members. groups, had this to say about the Bill: 1. The Ethnic Affairs Commission Act 1992 should be Most likely that will be the chairman, who at best amended and not repealed, the intention being to would be described as a political appointment. strengthen the commission. There is speculation about who will be appointed. I do not wish to mention names, but it is common 2. That the ethnic affairs unit within the Premier's knowledge that the failed candidate for Northcote department should be part of a restructured was not the only candidate; other prominent commission. candidates defeated at the last election are now 3. That the Ethnic Affairs Commission should be being touted to fill the position of chairman. adequately funded to enable it and its staff to achieve its objectives. I have been astounded at the amount of correspondence I have received in relation to ethnic 4. That the objective and functions of the commission affairs, particularly from the elderly and aged both under the 1982 Act and the Bill should be groups. Although the Bill is not directly responsible revived and extended ... for the abolition of the ethnic affairs grants 5. That extensive community consultation should be program - the last mini-Budget was responsible for undertaken prior to the passage of the Bill through that. - it removes from the commission its ability to Parliament adVIse the government and the Minister on how best to use funds specifically earmarked for ethnic affairs. 6. That should the government persist with its intention to restrict the role of the new commission to that of I have received much correspondence on this matter, an advisory council, then it should repeal the and it increased when people heard about the Bill. present Ethnic Affairs Commission Act and Ethnic groups have not been consulted about the withdraw the Bill. The advisory council does not Bill, and none of the organisations that have written require legislative support. to me support the changes. For example, the Ethnic That is hardly a ringing endorsement of the C~mmunities Council of Victoria, to name only one, government's legislation. this week delivered a submission to the Premier expressing its concern about the Bill. The Mrs Peulich interjected. government did not give the council time to consider the changes the Bill will make and did not The ACflNG SPEAKER -Order! The consult with it when the Bill was drafted. honourable member for Bentleigh will get her turn when the honourable member for Mill Park has Mr Honeywood interjected. finished. Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - The Parliamentary Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - I will endeavour to secretary may say that he gave the council a copy of give the honourable member for Bentleigh an the Bill two months ago, but the 31 March opportunity to speak, but I expect the Parliamentary submission to the Premier - a copy of which was secretary, the honourable member for Warrandyte provided to the opposition - said the government will jump up before her and she will be denied he; should not proceed with the Bill until the council opportunity to speak. This morning she voted to had seen a copy of it. To the best of my knowledge guillotine the debate and has, therefore, deprived the council has not received a copy of the Bill from herself of the opportunity to debate the Bill. the Premier's office. This Bill is an insult to ethnic communities in An Honourable Member - Did you send them Victoria. It does not support ethnic groups, and I one? shall treat it with the contempt it deserves. The opposition will vote against the Bill, but the Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS - I certainly did. As a government will use its numbers to push the responsible shadow Minister I attempted to circulate measure through. I warn the government that when the Bill as widely as possible. Ethnic communities this Bill is better understood by ethnic communities want more time to go through the Bill and to discuss they will once again desert the Uberal Party in it with their committees of management. They have droves, just like they have done on previouS not been given that opportunity. The Ethnic occasions because of the contemptuous way it treats Communities Council of Victoria, which represents ethnic communities. ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1651

Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) - I am The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of disappointed that in Victoria ethnic affairs, unlike order. If the honourable member for Richmond the situation in the Commonwealth and some other wishes to rebut what the honourable member for States, lacks bipartisan support. The honourable Warrandyte says in debate, he is at liberty to do so. member for Mill Park did not mention the contribution of the Honourable Jeff Kennett, the Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) - Every current Premier, to ethnic affairs in Victoria. Deputy Chairman of the Ethnic Affairs Commission was a card-carrying member of the socialist left Honourable members interjecting. faction of the Australian Labor Party.

Mr HONEYWOOD - Opposition members Mr Micallef - They don't have cards. laugh about a person who has probably done more for promoting multiculturalism in this State than Mr HONEYWOOD - Perhaps it's just a anyone else. If members opposite listened to their handshake. The honourable member for Richmond so-called constituent ethnic communities they would was the de facto Minister for Ethnic Affairs from realise that Jeff Kennett, as the ethnic affairs Minister 1982 to 1988 because the then Minister, the in the Hamer and Thompson governments, shadow Honourable Peter Spyker, was also the Minister for Minister during the years of the former government Consumer Affairs and did not have sufficient time to and Minister again in this government, has done give to the ethnic affairs portfolio. The more in the past 10 years than the socialist-left administration of ethnic affairs was left to one faction of the Labor Party to promote Demetri Dollis prior to his becoming a member of multiculturalism in Victoria. Parliament. He spent most of his time looking after his friends by installing them in positions in the I wrote two speeches for today: one in the genuine so-called neutral Public Service. We all know who hope that the opposition would support this Bill and some of his friends are. This was done to build up another in case it decided to abuse this matter for support in the Labor Party for his own nomination political purposes. Honourable members opposite to represent it in State Parliament and to ensure that probably know which speech they will hear. socialist left members had influence among ethnic communities. He used the funding program for The speech of the honourable member for Mill Park political purposes and I shall come to that later. contained many inaccuracies. I refer to his claim that the Bill is an attack on the independence of the For example, excessive funding was given to the Ethnic Affairs Commission. What independence? Australian Yugoslav Welfare Society. Every chairman of the commission for the 10 years ApprOximately $207 000 was given as a grant to of Labor administration was a card-carrying none other than Lewis and Vera Kent. Lewis Kent member of the socialist-left faction of the Labor was a former Labor Party representative for the Party. Every deputy chairman was also a Federal seat of Hotham. Vera Kent, his wife, was one card-carrying member of the Labor Party. of the so-called neutral part-time commissioners appointed to the Ethnic Affairs Commission. Other Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - On a point of order, ethnic communities such as the Croatians, the Mr Speaker, I forgave the honourable member for Bosnians and the Serbians - and there are Warrandyte when he referred earlier to the thousands of them who never supported relationship between the current Premier and Jack Yugoslavia - say that they received hardly any Ginifer. funding for 10 years from the former Labor government. The SPEAKER - Order! What is your point of order? The coalition government has now obtained the files so it is able to reveal what so far has been kept quiet. Mr DOLLIS - The Parliamentary secretary What a scandal that $206 750 of taxpayers' money should withdraw his accusation about the former was given for the greater glorification of Lewis and chairmen of the Ethnic Affairs Commission. For his Vera Kent. information the second last chairman of the Ethnic Affairs Commission was previously appointed by Mr MICALLEF (Springvale) - On a point of the Liberal government to the former Institute of order, Mr Speaker, what is the relevance of the Multicultural Affairs. contribution of the honourable member for Warrandyte? The honourable member should ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1652 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 indicate whether a grant was given to an the Victorian Trades Hall Council, $61929; the organisation or to individuals. Federated Confectioners Association of Australia­ it is associated with people from Libya - received The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of $5000; the Union of Australia Turkish Workers - it order. If the honourable member for Springvale is interesting to hear what Turkish people say about wants to rebut anything that the honourable the Honourable Andrew Theophanous, a member of member for Warrandyte says during the course of Federal Parliament -- the debate, he may do so. Mr Dollis - He received one of the largest Labor Mr MICALLEF - On a further point of order, votes in Australia. Mr Speaker, if something is said that is not true it should be withdrawn. Mr HONEYWOOD - He did not receive any votes from the Turkish community. The Union of The SPEAKER - Order! If remarks are Australia Turkish Workers received $15 000. It is unparliamentary, impugn somebody unnecessarily interesting that only one ethno-specific trade union or are offensive they can be withdrawn, but in the group received a grant of $15 000. The Hospital cut and thrust of debate, members can make Employees Federation No. 1 Branch -an extremely statements about a range of issues. The Chair is "right-wing group" - received $15 000. concerned only with whether those remarks are relevant. These grants were made while migrant groups were being starved of funding; while migrant The lead speaker for the opposition covered many communities wanted to build nursing homes to look issues during the debate, as is the custom, and the after their sick and disabled and wanted access to lead speaker for the government has the same programs for English as a second language. During opportunity. a period of 10 years the trade union movement received $244 754 as ethnic grants! It is not only Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) - I incredible; it is an indictment of the so-called understand why members of the opposition want to neutrality and bipartisanship of the opposition when curtail the time that I have to speak: they do not it was the government of Victoria. want the community to know ethnic affairs was the plaything of the socialist left for 10 years. In his Even as recently as the 1991-92 grants program, maiden speech on 2 November 1988 the honourable under the senior citizens-aged workers grant, the member for Richmond said: only ethno-specific association on a geographical basis to receive a substantial grant was the These policies will include close cooperation with the Williamstown Italian Social Club, which received trade union movement ... An effective Labor $20000. To receive that amount it was told to hold a government will always have close links with trade function so that the then Premier, the honourable unions, and I intend to play my part to ensure that that member for Williamstown, could personally give the happens. cheque to the association. If a special ceremony were not held, it would not receive funding. It is In acting as the de facto Minister for Ethnic Affairs interesting that on so-called neutral criteria, the the honourable member did his job. largest grant to any ethno-specific, geographically-based association went to an I refer now to ethnic affairs grants and I remind association in the electorate of the former Premier! honourable members that many ethnic communities, The anecdotal evidence about that event is very particularly the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian interesting! communities, did not receive any funding for 10 years. The Australian Railways Union received I am not surprised that the honourable member for $19000; the Australian Telecommunications Mill Park said that this government should: Employees Association, only $3500; the Clothing and Allied Trades Union of Australia, $7825; the ... force the commission to achieve its objectives. Federated Liquor and Allied Industries Employees Union of Australia, $37 500; the Trade Union ''Force'' is the operative word, because that is exactly Information and Resource Centre - it did not want what the Labor opposition has done. It has forced its to dispatch too much information - received $4000; members to claim that the government is diluting the Trade Union Migrant Workers Centre, $76 000; the functions of the Ethnic Affairs Commission; but ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1653 it has completely ignored how ethnic affairs has The Ethnic Affairs Commission Act 1982 states that the been administered over the past three years. Back commission is to act "subject to the direction of the then, the previous government appOinted another Minister" -- card-carrying member as general manager of the bureaucratic wing. He operated under the auspices In other words the Labor opposition is accusing us of the Office of Ethnic Affairs and turned the of doing exactly what it did under its own so-called independent commission into an advisory legislation when in government. If opposition body and a rubber stamp. members have not read their own Act, that relates to section 14(a). The memorandum continues: Honourable members interjecting. and that the committees it establishes require "the Mr HONEYWOOD - Mr Speaker, I am having approval of the Minister". difficulty speaking with the level of interjection across the table. Again I ask opposition members to read section 17(1): The SPEAKER - Order! The level of interjection across the table is too high. I ask honourable The investigations into the functions of government members to remain silent. agencies, to which the Act refers in section 15, are themselves subject to "the approval of the Minister"; Mr HONEYWOOD - Thank you, Mr Speaker. I the agreements with other departments (section 12) are have a memorandum from the current chairman of also subject "to the consent of the Minister the commission, who was appointed by the Labor administering that department". government and who has been kept on by the government. In the memorandum he states; In other words, all the things opposition members have accused us of introducing are contained in To my knowledge, the Ethnic Affairs Commission their own Act: never investigated or instigated any substantive ethnic affairs matter without the prior knowledge and The chairman of the commission, being also the chief approval of the Minister. executive officer, maintained the normal powers of the head of a department until January 1992. With the That makes a sham of the accusation by the establishment of MEMCA, the commission was honourable member for Mill Park about what the stripped of departmental status and a separate government is doing in introducing the Bill. He goes department was created: the Office of Ethnic Affairs. on: The Act was not amended ...

Indeed, there were always doubts as to whether the We must ask why. The honourable member for Ethnic Affairs Commission had such powers. Richmond apparently did not have the courage to bring before this House an amendment to the former Mr ANDRIANOPOULOS (Mill Park) - On a government's own legislation, which it ignored for point of order, Mr Speaker, I ask that the honourable three years. But this government has the courage to member table the document he is quoting. put the necessary amendments in train.

The SPEAKER - Order! Is the honourable The previous government turned a blind eye to the member prepared to table the document? situation for the last three years it was in office, as a result of which the chairman it appOinted has now Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) - I am more written a memorandum accusing it of abusing its than happy to do so. In fact I would rather have it own legislation and not properly representing the incorporated in Hansard. Ethnic Affairs Commission.

The SPEAKER - Order! That cannot be done The memorandum then states that "the Act was not without the prior knowledge of the Speaker. amended, although the salary and conditions were reviewed". It also says: Mr HONEYWOOD - The memorandum continues: Under the changes, the commission was in control of its initiatives and of a budget of about $20 000. ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1654 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

The honourable member for Mill Park said the The only reason the previous government appointed government had stripped the commission of full-time deputy chairpersons was that under its resources. According to the chainnan, the own Act, which it ignored during its last three years commission received only $20 000 from the previous in office, the commission was charged with government. If I could use the word ''hypocrite'', I responsibility for the delivery of interpreting and would. Although I cannot use the word because· it is translating services, grants and so on. In practice, as unparliamentary, its use would be singularly we have heard from the current chainnan, who was appropriate to describe the sham of so-called appointed by the Labor government, the neutrality that is practised in ethnic affairs by commission was not allowed to carry out its honourable members opposite. responsibilities. Why do you need a full-time deputy chair if that person is not allowed to do the job that The Office of Ethnic Affairs had a budget of $20 000 the Act requires him or her to do? There was no but had no power to detennine the agenda and the need for a full-time deputy chair; therefore the priorities of the office. The chainnan finishes his amendment proposed by the honourable member memorandum by saying: for Mill Park is a sham.

I shall be pleased to give clarifications. In his memorandum the current chainnan has Franco Schiavoni, Chairman. already told us that he received only $20 000 to fund his commission's activities. Although ethnic affairs For 10 years the previous government made a sham has been practised on a bipartisan basis, for the past of ethnic affairs. The use of ethnic affairs as a six months honourable members opposite have been political tool led to the fonnation of a group known deliberately trying to score points by running off to as the Local Government and Ethnic Affairs ethnic media outlets that are sympathetic to their Ministerial Advisory Council (LEMAC). A member cause, saying that the government has abolished the of the socialist left network, now the honourable Ethnic Affairs Commission. member for Thomastown, required support from his friends to win the seat of Thomastown in a Within six months of coming to power in 1982 the by-election, so LEMAC was formed and was sent off fonner government had sacked every non-ALP to do a pilot study on the delivery of ethnic services commissioner. to local government. After being appointed by a socialist left Minister, LE MAC officers trotted out to Mr Dollis - There were no commissioners! the Whittlesea council, which is the main council in the electorate of Thomastown. Mr HONEYWOOD - Go and speak to Victor Borg. Mr Borg was a commissioner who was At the time the Whittlesea council was a conned. He was put in place in the early 1980s by socialist-left, Labor-dominated council. What is the previous government. He is now chainnan of the called an intra-factional problem then occurred in Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria. The council this State. The Whittlesea council said it was not made the submission the honourable member from interested in having a pilot study done on the Mill Park quoted from earlier. Mr Borg resigned as a delivery of ethnic services. Nevertheless LEMAC commissioner of the Labor Party's Ethnic Affairs was forced to do that pilot study because a report Commission in 1986 because he believed the had to be issued to assist the honourable member for commission had become a disgrace and was a Thomastown win the by-election. rubber stamp. His reasons for resigning were not minuted. His letter of resignation to the then The government is trying to allow the commission to Minister is not on the file. However, Mr Borg will be do what the previous government would not let it the first to say that he resigned as a commissioner do -operate at ann's length from government. The from the so-called Ethnic Affairs Commission Bill provides for the appointment of a full-time or because it had become a rubber stamp. That goes to part-time chairperson. The amendment moved by show what a sham ethnic affairs was when the honourable member for Mill Park, which administered under the previous government. provides for the appointment and payment of a full-time chairperson and a full-time deputy The honourable member for Sandringham intends to chairperson, is a sham, because a full-time deputy go point-by-point through the functions of the chairperson is not required. government's Bill and to compare it with the existing legislation. There is little difference between ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1655

the functions of the proposed commission as set out speaker, the honourable member for Richmond, who in the Bill and what the current commission does. was the de facto Minister for Ethnic Affairs in the former government, will refer to the spirit of The government has had extensive consultations bipartisanship which until today existed in Victoria, with the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria on but which the opposition in its desperate grab for a the legislation and has received a submission from headline deserted in favour of political point-scoring. it. Mr Borg was given a briefing on the Bill some months ago. It is unfortunate that in the proposed Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - The Honourable Jack functions of the commission contained in its Ginifer, a former member of this House, as a result submission the council has overlooked the proposed of illness, unfortunately was robbed of an main power of the commission, clause 5 (e), namely: opportunity of serving in this House following the election of the Labor government in the early 1980s. to maintain and further develop harmonious The honourable member for Warrandyte, the community relations between all relevant groups ... Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, displayed his ignorance when he referred to The council's submission therefore is defective Jack Ginifer as just another former trade unionist, because it does not address the full intent of the Bill. because he did not see Jack Ginifer working with the Premier in both opposition and government. The Bill provides for a minimum of 7 and a maximum of 10 part-time commissioners - the Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) -On a point honourable member for Mill Park chose to speak of order, Mr Speaker, I did not mention the only about the lowest possible number of Honourable Jack Ginifer once in my speech. If the members - and for a full-time chairperson. The Bill honourable member for Richmond wants to score represents a change in philosophy. Rather than political points he should come back to the truth. having a factionalised political machine running a Mr Ginifer was not mentioned once in my speech. political agenda and trying to con the ethnic communities in Victoria into accepting its own The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of philosophy and deSigns, the government will order. require the mainstream government departments that are charged with ethnic service delivery to Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - That illustrates the adopt a greater role in looking after their clients pathetic nature of the previous contribution. It is from non-English speaking backgrounds. true that the current Premier has over a long period contributed to ethnic affairs in Victoria and that his Mr Mildenhall - It does not say that in the Bill! commitment to ethnic affairs is unquestioned and well recognised. It is also true that, because of the Mr HONEYWOOD - If the honourable member misconnection between his brain and his mouth, his for Footscray bothered to read the government's comments often create unnecessary division. policy, which was issued prior to the October 1992 However, the opposition pays tribute to the work in election, he would realise that one of the key ethnic affairs of the Premier, the former Minister and platforms in that policy was a three-pronged system former Leader of the Opposition. of administration rather than a political machine jumping up and down at government departments It has been said that extensive consultation has taken in an ineffective way. place in respect of the Bill. ''Extensive consultation" means consulting not only in theory but in practice The government wants departments to ensure they with ethnic communities. deliver services to their clients from ethnic backgrounds, not only through a mechanism of an In 1982 the Ethnic Affairs Commission Bill was interdepartmental committee, made up of politicians introduced by the former government. Following a and senior public servants, but also through a review, a report entitled Access and Equity - the system of annual reporting and other mechanisms. Development of Victoria's Ethnic Affairs Policy was The Bill represents a change in philosophy. produced. That review report was a public document open to scrutiny, constructive criticism It is a sham and a disgrace for the honourable and comment. The review was carried out over a member· for Mill Park to stand on his political period of 13 weeks. More than 200 ethnic-based soapbox and try to score political points from what organisations, representing some 500 affiliated used to be a bipartisan policy. I hope the next groups from all regions of the State, 40 municipal ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1656 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 councils, 25 government Ministries and namely, community groups. That is why I say the departments, 36 trade unions and many other consultation of the previous government can stand community-based organisations and persons, up to scrutiny and should be compared with that of responded to the review. Hundreds of individuals the current government. The documentation shows and organisations were consulted about a change to that the current government has consulted little. The the legislation. A copy of the Bill was provided to all only example of consultation that can be found is those groups, and papers of review were some discussions that have taken place between the commissioned. One was produced by the Victoria Parliamentary secretary and the Ethnic Welcome Group. Needless to say, when this review Communities Council of Victoria. As the honourable was mentioned to the Parliamentary secretary he member for Mill Park indicated, the report by the was not even aware of it simply because Ethnic Communities Council obviously does not consultation exists only in the minds of those support the government's approach - its way opposite. The former government produced the facts forward. in black and white, in a documented form that can stand up to scrutiny and basically answer the Let us examine Australia's history to see why ethnic question of time. affairs plays such an important role in Victoria and Australia generally. I do not intend to spend 28 Let us consider the reviews the previous minutes vilifying anyone inside or outside the government conducted. The first was conducted by House, as did the Parliamentary secretary. I intend the Victoria Welcome Group, which was to indicate why governments must be careful and coordinated by the then Ministry. Its task was to must pay attention to this area. I will give an historic welcome new arrivals and provide them with account of ethnic affairs. information on services available. The second was a review and analysis of the grants programs of the Australia is a land of migrants and has been Ministry. The third was a review of the receiving immigrants since British settlement. Our cross-cultural awareness courses. The fourth was a history is that since the second world war the review of the community relations unit. The fifth migration program has brought about substantial was a briefing paper on interpreter and translation changes to the composition of our population. services. Honourable members would know that after the end of the second world war -- There was a community survey and migrant worker discussion. The survey methodology, a survey Mr HONEYWOOD (Warrandyte) -On a point questionnaire, a summary of government policy and of order, Mr Speaker, the honourable member for statistics from the survey were distributed. Also Richmond has been quoting for some time from there were meetings with community workers and extensive notes. Is he willing to table those notes as people from non-English-speaking backgrounds. A he required me to do when I made my contribution? number of specialist background papers were commissioned: the first on consultations with The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of migrant women; the second on ethnic health services order. The honourable member for Richmond may in Victoria; the third on mental health and ethnic use notes to aid him in his speech. I believe he is not services; the fourth on migrant services and reading his speech and he is in order. occupational health; the fifth on State welfare services; the sixth on the access of migrants to Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - They are my Victoria's education system; the seventh on the handwritten notes. review of industrial English programs, which led to the program English on the job; the eighth on the The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable communications policy of the Ethnic Affairs member does not have to table notes. Commission; and the ninth on the documentation and information role of the Ethnic Affairs Mr DOLLlS - To give substance to the debate I Commission. The former government also provided shall continue with this historical account. At the a duty statement on divisional directors. All of that end of the second world war Australia faced a information was for public consumption. number of challenges. It was felt that for defence purposes alone Australia needed a Significant Government members may have disagreements on increase to its population of 7.5 million. Also our questions of policy, but disagreements must be open population was ageing because during the 1920s and to public scrutiny and reviewed by those affected, ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1657

1930s there had been a dramatic fall in the number Whitlam was personally committed to change and of births from 135000 to 110000. to the promotion of Australia's cultural diverSity.

After the second world war there was a need for For those ignorant enough not to know, I point out reconstruction, to replace capital stock, to revive the that Malcolm Fraser's contribution was made flow of consumer goods, to replace imports and to through the appointment of Frank Galbally to head develop a strong manufacturing industry. It was an inquiry into post-arrival services. Malcolm Fraser therefore believed in 1947 that Australia had to also contributed through the appointment of Petro "populate or perish"; they were the only Georgiou to his personal office and as the first alternatives. A massive migration program was born Director of the Institute of Multicultural Affairs. I out of that belief. pay tribute to Whitlam, Fraser, Grassby and Georgiou for making Australia a truly multicultural A failure to understand the historical perspective of society. and motives for the mass migration program often contributes - and I suggest the Parliamentary If the honourable member wants to talk about a secretary take note of this - to anti migrant and at bipartisan approach, let me put it into some some times racist attitudes. I also remind honourable historical perspective so he is aware of the members opposite that during that time migrants contributions made by the former Minister for were expected to assimilate. Through the 195Os, Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, the late honourable 1960s and even early 1970s the Australian Jack Ginifer, and the current Minister, the Premier, government totally neglected to provide services of both of whom have spent considerable time on this relevance to a multicultural society. Migrants area. However, I suspect that the friendship and the effectively faced either assimilation or experiencing camaraderie the Premier has developed with the continuing disadvantage. The Minister would know ethnic community irrespective of political how disadvantaged many ethnic groups were in differences is something not shared by the accessing services offered by government honourable member for Warrandyte. I expected the organisations and departments. speech of the Parliamentary Secretary for Ethnic Affairs to show his affinity for ethnic affairs in As I mentioned earlier, Australia's economic Victoria; I expected him to analyse the government's expansion, especially in the manufacturing area, contribution and indicate the direction to be taken changed the early intentions of the mass migration over the next three years. However, his speech was program. Originally it was anticipated that 9 out of full of vitriol and was extremely disappointing. That 10 migrants would be British, something that proved is why it is important to point out the historical impossible given that the United Kingdom had a bipartisan approach that has been adopted. The labour problem similar to that of Australia. Parliamentary secretary needs to understand that Therefore there had to be a change to the early many individuals have worked extremely hard in intentions for the migration program. this area. He also needs to understand that if Australia is to be an example to the rest of the world Australia had to move from a policy of assimilation of a society that has been able to integrate more than to one of multiculturalism because the nature of the 140 groups-- migration program meant that the composition of our society was beginning to change. It was finally Mrs Peulich -In the order of 97 per cent are recognised that Australia could not prosper if it unemployed! continued down the impoverished path of assimilation. Thus the early 1970s brought the Mr DOLLlS - I suggest to the honourable acceptance of our country's cultural diverSity. member for Bentleigh that she go back to the history books to research the.contributions made by For the informa tion of the Parliamentary secretary I individuals in creating a society that is as tolerant as point out the bipartisan approach taken by both the is humanly possible given its incredible diverSity. I Whitlam and Fraser governments. They made a hope this government will continue the contribution great contribution to this debate and to the former governments have made to ethnic affairs in development of multiculturalism in Australia, the past. Whitlam through the appointment of Al Grassby as Minister. Honourable members would know of Al The honourable member for Warrandyte listed a Grassby's commitment to multiculturalism. Gough litany of complaints, which did little to enhance his reputation. Honourable members will be ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1658 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 disappointed when they read his contribution in State and that region. The Bill contains nothing to Hansard because they would have expected a comfort Victoria about its future. statesperson-like speech. I expected the honourable member to rise above the petty, pathetic politics he Parliament has been given no evidence about the displayed. He should have assisted the debate by programs the government wants to develop. I informing the House how ethnic affairs will develop expected the Parliamentary secretary to outline the in this State. government's vision for language services, on-the-job English, education in a multicultural The shadow Minister for Ethnic Affairs indicated to society, racism and combating racial vilification, the House that he is willing to give the government migrant women, youth from non-English speaking a chance, not only through this debate but also backgrounds and a multitude of programs that run through his reasoned amendment and amendments across the spectrum of government. to be proposed during the Committee stage to correct a misinterpretation made by the government. Was any such vision given? The government says it I praise the Premier's commitment to ethnic affairs, wants to correct the record of the previous but I wonder about the advice he is receiving! government, but to do that it must match that record not in rhetoric but in realistic programs that it I want to set the record straight about the delivers to the people of Victoria. It is the consultation that has allegedly taken place and fundamental delivery of services that breaks down about the criticisms of the Bill. Ethnic affairs is an inequalities and continues to provide us with a area that will always face criticism, but that criticism weapon to continue to build a tolerant and united must be made in an open, honest and fair way; it SOCiety. must take place in a climate where the government is prepared to produce its policies openly so they are It is not easy to integrate 14O-odd ethnic groups, a available to anyone wishing to study and scrutinise multitude of cultures and languages into one them. cohesive society called Australia. The work that has been done and that needs to be done is of Unless there is an honest, straightforward critique of paramount importance. If Australia is to avoid the policies we will never be able to contribute to the experiences of overseas countries - even development of Australia's multicultural society and English-speaking countries such as the United States make certain that its diversity becomes its strength. of America and the United Kingdom - we must It is that very diversity that is Australia's strength. know how this Bill will ensure that society continues The multitude of cultures that provide strength to to develop and enhance the lives of people within its Australian society are those cultures the shadow ethnic communities and how it will utilise their Minister for Ethnic Affairs wanted included in the future contributions. consultation. What did the honourable member for Mill Park say? He asked whether those people For many reasons Australia will continue to have a would be allowed to contribute to a debate that migration program. How will we deal with the should have substance and that should produce a migrants who have been in this country for more structure better than the previous one. than 30 years and whose needs have changed? How will we deal with the newly arrived migrants? Legislation is supposed to be changed in order to Honourable members opposite will know that improve it. This is a simple piece of legislation; it is immigration programs change because of so simple that it leaves nothing to the imagination. international pressures, and as a result, populations The Bill contains no vision for the future and, as I begin to change. Those who come to this wonderful said earlier, I wonder about the advice the Premier country today are culturally, ethnically and has received. The Premier's record is obvious, but I linguistically different from those who came in the wonder sometimes about those around him. early 1950s and 1960s as factory fodder for the developing manufacturing industry. Migrants now What does the Bill mean to Victorians as we face the come from more mixed origins because Australia's year 2000? The rhetoric in this House and across needs are different. Australia is that Australia's economic future lies within the Asia-Pacific rim. Politicians across the Nothing in the contribution made by the honourable political spectrum are developing the relevant member for Warrandyte showed a sense of vision; it policies that will see the cultural, linguistic and was a disappointing contribution. It is important to economic connections between this country and place on record the issues that must be addressed, ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1659 irrespective of the party in government, irrespective Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - Firstly, I of who is the Minister, and irrespective of what shall relate my remarks to the contribution made by political ideology the government espouses. I hope the honourable member for Richmond. He referred the Minister's response will contain a sense of in glowing terms to his party's review. Although the vision, because it is most important that a clear government is aware of the administrative review, it signal is given to members of the community from reminds the opposition that the legislation is both non-English speaking and English speaking basically a continuation of the evolution of backgrounds about the legislative measures that will administration in ethnic affairs that has been assist in the development of our society. occurring since 1982. It also puts into perspective the way in which the Labor Party administered ethnic Although the Bill is simple, it does not reveal what affairs during the past three years. No ethnic the government intends to do. The second-reading community has expressed any concern about the Bill debate provides the opportunity for the government to the government or to the Ethnic Affairs to outline the programs that will assist the ethnic Commission. community. The shadow Minister for Ethnic Affairs, the honourable member for Mill Park, outlined some The honourable member for Richmond made a of the concerns expressed by the ethnic communities comment about factory-fodder. My wife's family about the legislation - and he moved a reasoned arrived on Station Pier 25 years ago and later amendment so that the clauses could be examined in worked in the factories of Richmond and Clayton. the Committee stage. The honourable member also Comparisons have been made between the migrants foreshadowed amendments that were the result of of today and the migrants of 10 years ago who extensive consultations with those communities. worked in factories. At least in those days they had However the Bill will not be amended, regardless of the opportunity of working. Home ownership the contribution made by the ethnic communities statistics show that 10 years ago 92 per cent of Italian and the criticisms made of the government. migrants owned their own homes and 88 per cent of Greeks owned their own homes. Because of the At the end of the day the House, Parliament and the administration of this State during the decade of Minister must all contribute to the development of Labor government those home ownership levels our society. We can ensure stability by continuing have not increased. Rather, many of the people who the policy of integration by maintaining came to this country are returning to their fair-mindedness and by fighting bigotry and racism. homelands - or they are sending their children That will ensure that all people, irrespective of their back. When I door-knocked in my electorate prior to linguistic, cultural or racial backgrounds, are able to the State election I was staggered to find that a large participate in the affairs of the State and are not number of migrants were sending their children manipulated. back to Greece or Argentina because of the lack of employment opportunities in Victoria. Those from non-English speaking backgrounds are twice disadvantaged. I was hoping to hear The view of the former Premier, Henry Bolte, was, something from the govemment about those people "Give a person a job and the opportunity of buying from non-English speaking backgrounds who have his or her own home and he or she has the prospect lived this State for a long time and those who have of building a worthwhile life in this nation". In 1983 only recently migrated. There are distinct differences a French magazine rated Australia as the best between those groups. Some people have spent a country in the world in which to live. That was due lifetime developing a positive way forward in ethnic to a number of factors such as our natural heritage affairs. Much hard work needs to be done, but at the and the legal and Parliamentary system that end of the day a bankrupt political party without inherited from Britain. It was also due to the any substance will fail. magnificent contribution made by migrant communities over many years. The government has the opportunity of supporting the reasoned amendment. The honourable member As a solicitor I had the opportunity of working with for Mill Park wanted to move to the Committee 30 to 40 different ethnic groups from the Middle stage, but the House has been denied that East, South America, Asia and Europe, and I was opportunity. For that, the government stands always impressed with their capacity to make their condemned. way in the Australian community without any government assistance. I was impressed by many ethnic community organisations that took the ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

1660 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 opportunity to incorporate under the legislation recommendations to the Minister on any aspect of relating to the incorporation of associations. They ethnic affairs referred to it by the Minister. have shown leadership and have advanced using their own resources rather than relying on the Section 14(f) of the Act provides that it is a function government. of the commission:

A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity of to advise the Minister on the development of attending a function addressed by the Turkish immigration policies. Consul-General. He said, "A friend on the left and a friend on the right, let us work together and the As this complex area involves a number of different community unite". I am in favour of a bipartisan government departments, it is more appropriate that approach to a number of these issues. it be conducted by the government in consultation with the Commonwealth. It is not necessary for that I turn now to provisions of both the Ethnic Affairs provision to be a focus of the Act. Section 14(g) Commission Act and the Bill. Clause 4 of the Bill sets provides for the commission: out the objectives of the commission, which are to promote the full participation of Victoria's ethnic to co-ordinate the introduction of special translation groups in community life; access to services; and interpreter services into departments and statutory maintenance of cultural inheritance; cooperation bodies. between bodies concerned with ethnic affairs; unity among ethnic groups; and the promotion of a better In recent years Significant improvements have been understanding of ethnic groups within the wider made in prOViding migrants with access to community. They are worthy objectives. translation and interpreter services. On many occasions as a lawyer I have been aware of the need Section 14 of the 1982 Act provides that it is the for migrants to have access to interpreters when function of the commission: visiting doctors or becoming involved in the judicial process. It is important that those needs be met so (a) to act subject to the direction of the Minister; that health and legal services can be appropriately That provision is replicated in clause 6 of the Bill. provided to ethnic communities. Subsection (b) states: Section 14(h) requires the commission: to investigate, report and make recommendations to the Minister on any aspect of ethnic affairs referred to it to consult with and involve other bodies and persons by the Minister. in- (i) meeting the needs of ethnic groups; and That is identical with clause 5(a). Subsection 14(c) states: (ii) promoting the interests of ethnic groups. That function is covered by clause 5(d), which to consult with and advise other government provides for the new commission to consult with departments and instrumentalities ... relevant bodies and individuals to determine the needs of ethnic groups. Section 14(i) provides for the Part of that work will be subsumed by the commission: interdepartmental committee. Subsection 14(d) provides: to arrange and co-ordinate meetings, discussions, seminars and conferences with respect to ethnic affairs. to advise the Minister on the most effective use of funds available for promoting the interests of ethnic groups. That role is redundant; it is covered by clause 5(d). Section 14(k) requires the commission: That role will be taken over as an administrative matter within the Ethnic Affairs Unit and the to report and make recommendations to the Equal interdepartmental committee. The Act continues: Opportunity Board on all matters affecting the equal (e) to undertake research into and compile information opportunity of all residents of Victoria. on the needs of different ethnic groups. The provision has a very narrow focus. It is the role That is covered by clause 5(b), which provides for and function of the commission to report all matters the commission to investigate, report and make of interest to the Office of the Commissioner for ETHNIC AFFAIRS COMMISSION BILL

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Equal Opportunity, the Office of Women's Affairs Warrandyte shakes his head, that is a fact. Over the within the Department of Justice, the Office of the past six months the government has displayed an Public Service Commissioner and other bodies. insensitivity to ethnic affairs. In the past the Premier had a better record, although one that he The redefined role of the commission basically splits occasionally blemished. In recent times he has taken its functions into a range of achievable objectives, little interest in his ethnic affairs responsibilities: I not ones that are superfluous and redundant. It understand he has not even bothered to meet with might be said, in the words of Mark Mitchell, alias the ethnic affairs commissioners since he has been in Con the Fruiterer, that if the Bill were to be government. For the past six months the Premier has summarised in one word, the word would be failed to discuss any ethnic affairs issues with "b-e-e-e-w-d-i-f-u-l"! In more Parliamentary members of the commission. If that is not true, I am language, the focus of the proposed legislation is sure the Premier will rebut it by interjection; logical, well constructed and well founded. unfortunately, it appears that it is true. If that is an indication of the interest in ethnic affairs of the I commend the Bill to the House. Premier and of the government he leads in 1993, it is a very sorry position. Dr V AUGHAN (Clayton) - As no member of the government has done so, I pay tribute to the Some years ago the Premier displayed a great many individuals who have served on the Ethnic interest in ethnic affairs and was an active Affairs Commission over the past decade. On behalf opposition spokesman for some time. If my memory of the people and the Parliament of Victoria, I thank serves me correctly, the Premier was the Minister them for their contribution to the life of this State responsible for ethnic affairs in the dying days of the and community. Hamer and Thompson governments. I would have expected better of the Premier. I am disappointed One may ask how a debate on ethnic affairs in our with his performance over the past six months. As SOCiety should be conducted. I suggest to the there is little time remaining, I shall conclude my honourable member for Warrandyte that it should contribution and hope the Premier will also be conducted without hyperbole, abuse or participate in the debate. exaggeration, and with a good deal of tolerance, understanding and consideration. Those qualities Mr KENNETf (Minister for Ethnic Affairs) - I were absent from his contribution to the debate thank all honourable members for their today. In contrast, the speech of the honourable contributions. I have listened to the debate and I member for Sandringham was without hyperbole, have a great deal to add in response to some of the abuse or exaggeration - except for the volume of most spurious points raised -- one particular word. The SPEAKER - Order! According to the It is disappointing that the debate has been resolution of the House the time allotted for debate truncated by the government; except for the has expired. The question is: contributions of opposition speakers and the honourable member for Sandringham, the debate That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of has not engaged the important issues, which is the question. surprising. I express surprise that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Premier, who appears to have a House divided on omission (Members in favour large role in the ethnic affairs area, failed to address vote No): the significant issues in the debate. The honourable member was preoccupied with abuse and Ayes,57 hyperbole. His performance gave the House a taste Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr of what should not be said in a debate of this nature. Bildstien, Mr Maughan, Mr Brown,Mr Napthine, Dr Over the past 10 years the Ethnic Affairs Clark, Mr Paterson, Mr Commission has served the people of Victoria well. Coleman,Mr Perrin, Mr The Act requires review and amendment - and I Cooper, Mr Perton, Mr am surE' there is bipartisan agreement on that - but Davis, Mr PescoH,Mr the Bill goes halfway toward the abolition of the Dean,Mr Peulich, Mrs Ethnic Affairs Commission. It is a halfway house to Doyle,Mr Phillips, Mr abolition. Although the honourable member for Elder, Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1662 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Elliott, Mrs Reynolds, Mr Ayes,57 Finn, Mr Richardson, Mr Ashley, Mr McNamara, Mr Gude,Mr Rowe, Mr (Teller) Bildstien, Mr Maughan,Mr Hayward,Mr Ryan,Mr Brown, Mr Napthine, Or Henderson, Mrs Smith, Mr E.R. Clark, Mr Paterson, Mr Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr LW. Coleman,Mr Perrin, Mr Hyams,Mr Spry, Mr Cooper,Mr Perton, Mr Jasper, Mr Steggall,Mr Oavis, Mr Pescott, Mr Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr Dean,Mr Peulich,Mrs Kennett, Mr Tanner,Mr Ooyle,Mr Phillips,Mr Kilgour,Mr Tehan,Mrs Elder,Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. Leigh, Mr Thompson, Mr Elliott, Mrs Reynolds, Mr Lupton, Mr (Teller) Traynor,Mr Finn,Mr Richardson, Mr McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr Gude,Mr Rowe,Mr McGiII,Mrs Tumer,Mr Hayward,Mr Ryan, Mr McGrath, Mr J.F. Wade,Mrs Henderson, Mrs (Teller) Smith, Mr E.R. McGrath, Mr W.O. Weideman, Mr Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr I.W. McLellan,Mr Wells, Mr Hyams, Mr (Teller) Spry, Mr Maclellan, Mr Jasper, Mr Steggall, Mr Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr Noes, 26 Kennett, Mr Tanner,Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Loney, Mr (Teller) KiIgour,Mr Tehan,Mrs Baker, Mr Marple,Ms Leigh, Mr Thompson, Mr Batchelor, Mr Micallef, Mr Lupton, Mr Traynor, Mr Coghill, Or Mildenhall, Mr McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr Cole,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr (Teller) McGiII,Mrs Tumer,Mr Cunningham, Mr Roper,Mr McGrath, Mr J.F. Wade,Mrs Dollis,Mr Sandon,Mr McGrath, Mr W.O. Weideman, Mr Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr McLellan,Mr Wells,Mr Haermeyer, Mr Sercombe, Mr Maclellan, Mr Hamilton,Mr Sheehan, Mr Kennan, Mr Thomson,Mr Noes, 26 Kimer,Ms Thwaites,Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Loney, Mr Leighton, Mr Vaughan, Or Baker, Mr Marple,Ms Batchelor, Mr Micallef, Mr Amendment negatived. Coghill, Or Mildenhall, Mr (Teller) Cole,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Motion agreed to. Cunningham, Mr Roper, Mr Dollis,Mr Sandon, Mr Read second time. Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr Haenneyer, Mr (Teller) Sercombe, Mr Passed remaining stages. HamiIton,Mr Sheehan, Mr Kennan, Mr Thomson,Mr TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL Kimer,Ms Thwaites, Mr Leighton, Mr Vaughan, Or Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Employment) - I declare this Bill to be an urgent Motion agreed to. Bill, and I move: Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and That this Bill be considered an urgent Bill. Employment) - I move:

Required number of members rose indicating That the time allotted in connection with the Bill be as approval of motion being put. follows- (a) for the second-reading stage of the Bill until House divided on motion: 6.00 p.m. this day; and TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

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(b) for the remaining stages of the Bill until 10.30 p.m. In 1978 Victoria had only 4 universities and this day. 23 colleges of advanced education. In 1992, following the 1991 Dawkins report, Victoria now has Motion agreed to. seven universities, the Ballarat University College Second reading and a few campuses of Catholic universities. The number of tertiary institutions has decreased but the number of students has increased from 94 000 in Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education). 1978 to 168 000 in 1992. No doubt that number is growing and is likely to grow for many years to come. In 1978 Victoria had 170000 TAFE students, Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - The opposition and that has increased in 1992 to 228 000. The total opposes this Bill on a number of grounds - number of people involved in initial and continuing although one of them will be alleviated by a education is almost 650 000. proposed government amendment. Although the opposition does not oppose the direction of the A large proportion of post-secondary students are Bill - that is, to coordinate and organise tertiary adult and further education students; that is one education in Victoria - it does oppose the way in reason why this is a complex issue. Many people are which that will be done. The opposition is concerned returning to education via the further education about the provision that will allow for the creation of sector to obtain and learn good study habits before a university without the approval of the Parliament. entering univerSity. It is also concerned about guidelines that are to be published some time after the legislation is enacted. The links between different post-secondary It is dangerous to accept at face value some of the education sectors has been tackled by successive things that are to be explained by guidelines at a later date. governments. In his speech introducing the Post-Secondary Education Act in 1978 Mr Thompson referred to the necessity for links The Bill proposes to repeal the Post-Secondary between various post-secondary education sectors. Education Act 1978 and will abolish the Victorian That has still not been fully coordinated in 1993. It is Post-Secondary Education Commission and replace the challenge to the government and the Minister to it with an advisory council to the Minister. Since its ensure that satisfactory links exist between the creation in 1978 VPSEC has had a chequered history. various sectors of post-secondary education. When Lindsay Thompson introduced the Post-Secondary Education Act the then honourable I am pleased that in his second-reading speech the member for Shepparton, Mr Ross-Edwards quipped Minister recOgnised the work of VPSEC, under the in an interjection: chairmanship of Or Graham Allen from 1978 to 1986 and Or Ron Cullen from 1986. Ever since its The government will not cut out any country inception, a great deal of controversy ~urround~ institution, will it? VPSEC and its audacity to attempt to mterfere WIth the complete autonomy and operations of Victo~ Mr Thompson to his credit responded: universities! As an independent statutory authonty, VPSEC caused a great deal of angst for universities, That is a good point. The government is fully particularly for the University of Melbourne. The committed to the maintenance of decentralised University of Melbourne has always been protective post-secondary institutions. of its position and autonomy. From its first day, VPSEC ran into a number of problems as it tried to I hope the government stands by that commitment fulfil its charter of getting post-secondary education because for those who live in and represent country in Victoria together. areas tertiary institutions are a critical part of the fabric of country Victoria. At the time some people said that the situation was similar to the position today with the reduction in Post-secondary education is a complex area and is Federal funding. An Age editorial of 17 March 1978 becoming more complex. The reason for the. referring to the proposal to establish the Victorian introduction of VPSEC in 1978 was to coordinate the Post-Secondary Education Commission said that the post-secondary education system. Since 1978 future of universities should be examined closely, massive changes have occurred in post-secondary especially following the Partridge report - a education, and anyone who is interested in committee established to examine post-secondary education should hope they continue. TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1664 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 education structures - but that report was waylaid 19605 and 1970s when the education sector grew by the university lobby which said, ''Hands off the rapidly, university staff began to have a real impact universities". in colleges and there was a difficulty in funding CAEs to undertake research; there was a significant The Partridge committee report on rationalisation of difference in the way courses were funded. It was post-secondary institutions said that thought that CAEs would provide alternative underemployed teachers and the physical resources qualifications for students without the requirement of colleges of advanced education should be used to of additional expense that occurs with universities support technical and further education (TAPE) for the funding of research programs. Indeed, the programs. Even in those days there was tripartite colleges were never funded to undertake research in agreement and concern about the coordination of the same way as were universities. The opportunity colleges of adult education (CAEs), which were in arose to provide the impetus for applied research, so their infancy, and the TAPE sector. it was important that CAEs were allowed to develop independently. In an article in the Sun of 19 April 1978 Barry MacFadyen states: Following the Dawkins report all CAEs were amalgamated with major universities, except for the Under the legislation the Universities of Victoria, State Ballarat University College, and the Bill addresses colleges and the colleges of the Victorian Institute of the problems of that college. That raises issues that Colleges-- should be debated at length and I know the Minister will not attempt to solve the problems associated the umbrella organisation for colleges of advanced with the college too quickly, although he has education - undertaken to examine the issue as soon as the Bill becomes an Act. will be required to submit new courses to the post-secondary commission for approval. An Age editorial of 25 April 1978, under the headline "The education muddle", contains a pertinent The same restrictions would apply to institutions paragraph that raises important issues: conducting technical, and further education courses. Education should be tailored to reality - but that So there were concerns about the planning required reality is not a narrow one where all that matters is the to provide skilled labour for industry. Those attempt to provide manpower. Education is about life concerns still exist and, because of the growth in the as well as earning a living. It is certainly too important education field, they are more critical now than they a matter to be dealt with in a piece of legislation. used to be. That is still true today. Even though there is strong An article in the Age of 25 April 1978, a week after emphasis on the economic issues, which should not the passage of the Bill by the Legislative Assembly, be underestimated, education is far more than reports on what the then Labor Party education training people for a job. Post-secondary institutions spokesman, the Honourable Robert Fordham, said. can prepare people by teaching them, but actual job As a former Minister of Education, Mr Fordham training will take place in the workplace and can made a Significant contribution to education in never be done adequately by a tertiary institution or Victoria. The article states: a TAPE college. Training is often out of date as soon as the person leaves the institution; more ... as a general principle the Opposition favoured all importantly, the nature of work is changing so areas of post-secondary education being treated equally. quickly that institutions will never produce graduates who are trained for industry and It is hoped the government will address that commerce. Education prepares people for training in requirement. An education hierarchy has existed for the course of their employment, but gaining as long as I can remember. employment is only one aspect of a person's life. In many ways a more important aspect in living a In many ways CAEs, which evolved from senior satisfactory and rewarding life is what people do technical colleges, offered an important alternative when they are not at their workplace. for students involved in tertiary education because they offered a range of higher education courses. Given the amount of so-called leisure time that our Their demise was inevitable, because during the community enjoys it is critical that in all sectors of TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1665 education, primary, secondary and post-secondary, recommendations to the government. The article people are trained to productively and creatively use continues: their time when they are not in paid work. The challenge facing our society is to develop an The education industry ... was rife with rumours, education system that will allow people to feel they scandals, accusations and cloak-and-dagger politics. can contribute, albeit not in traditional employment areas. That seemed to be because of the rationalisation of teacher training policies. The article then states: Tertiary education can play an important part because universities have traditionally instilled in Whether this is as a result of paranoia about Federal their students a belief in the acquisition of policies of limited growth, mainly in technical knowledge for knowledge's sake. There is education- something basic about the belief that one never finishes learning. Making more opportunities Back in 1980 the Federal government in its available to allow people to learn for learning's sake "wisdom" cut back on technical education, and the is a worthwhile human endeavour. community became concerned about what was happening in post-secondary education. I remember I shall leave the philosophy and go back to the Bill. It that the Federal government was looking at cutting was not too long after the formation of the Victorian out engineering courses at the Preston CAE, the Post-Secondary Education Commission in 1978 that Caulfield institute and the Gippsland institute, controversy arose. For example, an article in the Age where I worked. That was the flavour of the month of September 1980 said: back in 1980, and in hindsight it seems terribly short-sighted. One would have thought the The Victorian Post-Secondary Education Commission, bureaucrats in Canberra would have given better like all other State Education planning bodies,- planning advice, but they did not.

Australia has never had a common post-secondary The article then talks about the three main education planning body. There has always been a personalities involved in post-secondary education variety, and even when the Bill is passed there will planning in Victoria at that time. One was Mr Alan still be a variety, of planning bodies. The article Hunt, who by then had replaced Lindsay Thompson continues by saying that the commission: as the Minister of Education. By then Lindsay Thompson was Premier, so he had been not so much is in the invidious position of making tossed aside as pushed up. The three were Alan recommendations on how to spread less Federal money Hunt, the Minister of Education, Or Graham Allan, for education, and for being a handy scapegoat for the the chairman of the commission, and Or Jim Watson, State government when its decisions are unpopular. the deputy chairman. They became caught up in the saga surrounding VPSEC. The article continues: To my mind that was one of the strengths of VPSEC. If I were the Minister I would appreciate the Formerly the Minister was advised on all aspects of assistance of an independent authority such as educational policy by the director-general of the VPSEC, which could be at arm's length from and education department, Or Shears. make recommendations to government. Historically governments have not always taken notice of No-one with experience in tertiary education will recommendations such as those - but there is ever forget Laurie Shears and the contribution he always somebody to blame. In times of reducing made. I shall never forget the time Professor funds it is nice for State governments to be able to Fredericks of the School of Education at Melbourne say that the Federal government is cutting funds for University and I had a debate. I was on the receiving State education. end for most of it because I criticised one of Laurie Shears's articles on education. He had a lot to say That is one of the important aspects of the proposed and I did not always agree with his educational post-secondary education advisory council. The direction - I was probably not the only one. opposition believes it is important for the government to have an independent statutory This important Bill is a little like Michael J. Fox in advisory commission that has some status in our Back to the Future. Back before 1978 there was only community and some status in law so that it can one Minister to deal with - I was going to say give independent advice and make manipulate, but I would not dare say that because TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1666 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 that never happens! Peter IGrby, the Secretary to the proposals from staff associations, the Federation of Department of Education, now has the same role College Academics and the university staff that Laurie Shears had. I have the greatest respect associations. The Federation of Australian for Peter Kirby. He is an outstanding person who University Staff Associations (FAUSA) attacked the has made a non-partisan contribution to all the State commission for being inaccessible, secretive and and Federal areas he has worked in over the years. divisive. That criticism was levelled by staff What is needed is an independent statutory associations of universities and colleges of advanced authority with its own offices and staff so that it can education. operate independently and set up its own committees. I believe similar criticisms will be levelled in the future by the same organisations. By no stretch of In the Bill one should read ''bureaucrat'' for the imagination could anyone criticise FAUSA or the ''Minister'', because one of the weaknesses in the Council of Academics Staff Association of being Westminster system is that the buck stops with the radical, left-wing organisations. Those organisations Minister. In reality a Minister relies on the advice he have acted professionally throughout their existence; gets from his senior bureaucrats; if he does not get yet they will have no opportunity through this the right advice, he is the one who gets into trouble. legislation to have input into the planning of tertiary Taking into account the security of the bureaucracy, education and, in the case of other areas covered by there is certainly some advantage in placing the content of the Bill, people at the workface will responsibility for the decisions that are made back have no formal input into the planning process. The into the hands of the bureaucrats because often a opposition believes the Minister should take on Minister receives poor advice. That happens for a board their concerns and provide some avenue for number of reasons. No-one is infallible. No Minister input into planning by the staff associations and is, as we are all too well aware, and certainly no people working in the post-secondary sector. bureaucrat is infallible. The opposition notes that in an article published in The major problem the opposition has with the Bill the Age of9 September 1980, Mr Tony Lamb, who has nothing to do with its purpose or functions but was the executive officer of the Victorian Institute of with the way it is structured: the Bill places reliance Colleges Staff Association Council and who went on directly on a single bureaucrat - we hope the to become a Federal member of Parliament, is bureaucrat is surrounded by competent officers. reported as saying at that time:

The abolition of the Victorian Post-Secondary We are amazed at their requests not to be quoted - Education Commission will remove the arms-length relationship that has existed between an he was speaking about informal meetings with independent organisation and the education part-time commissioners - bureaucracy. The commission came in for a lot of criticism, perhaps because it did a good job, and when most of what they say is common knowledge or many people will smile to themselves at its demise. of little consequence. It provided an important, independent avenue of advice, which will be missed in the future. It may Even back in 1980 there was much criticism of have been better to have restructured VPSEC and VPSEC by organisations that had a genuine and real provided it with the wider powers proposed in the need to have input into the post-secondary Bill so that it could continue to do its job. education sector.

The effect of this legislation is to say that an Further on in the same article the then Minister, the independent body cannot do the job as well as an Honourable Alan Hunt, is reported as saying: advisory council, and that the Minister cannot get advice from the independent body that is as good as they ought to provide information to enable the public the advice he will receive from the secretary and to scrutinise and comment on basic assumptions, put staff of the department. them up to the fierce light of day."

In referring to criticism of VPSEC, I am reminded of Mr Hunt was speaking about the operations of another point I wish to make about the Bill. In the VPSEC. past there has been a great deal of criticism about a lack of consultation by VPSEC and about planning TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

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There is no doubt that the wisdom of Mr Hunt's afraid to criticise the commission and the way it comments at that time are equally true today. There operated. is no doubt that the recommendations and detenninations that will be made by the new Or Watson had commented on the failure of the advisory council should be held up to the fierce light commission to carry out its task. Or Watson said the of day. We are speaking about a sector of education amalgamation problems at what were then the that has a high profile and, when planning for the Frankston State College and the Caulfield Institute future is being undertaken, it should be subject to of Technology could have been resolved by proper the fiercest scrutiny possible. negotiation. The commission had to take a lot of the blame. Accusations were made that the Victorian An ability should exist after the proposed legislation Post-Secondary Education Commission was acting a has become law for recommendations that will go to little like a cart out of control and had not been able the Minister to be held up to the fiercest scrutiny to carry out its job. possible. No-one will provide fiercer scrutiny than academics and people who work daily in In those days the organisation was handling pretty educational institutions. It is not apparent from the sensitive issues such as the amalgamation of the Bill that there will be an opportunity for that teachers colleges with colleges of advanced scrutiny. education. Frankston State College and the Caulfield Institute of Technology became the Chisholm One could be paranoid about the Bill and imagine Institute of Technology and have now been that all planning and decision making could take amalgamated with Monash UniverSity. A number of place behind the closed door of the Minister's office amalgamations took place at that time. with only the Minister and Peter Kirby, the Secretary to the Department of Education, privy to what was Or Watson was sacked for criticiSing his own happening. Two heads may be better than one, but organisation. In those days it would have been seen whatever is being decided upon must be subject to as the exercise of healthy academic freedom for a scrutiny. The Australian community is very university staff member to criticise the organisation. interested in the scrutiny of decision making at I suspect that not too many staff at the University of university level and probably now at all levels of Melbourne would criticise Or Oavid Penington education. For example, commentary was made today for some of his directions; that remains to be today on the recommendations of the body that is seen. People should be able make criticisms in the examining a national curriculum for Australia. tertiary education area without fear or favour, but There has been fierce commentary on the proposed Jim Watson was sacked. There is no doubt in my mathematics and chemistry curriculums. That is mind that Alan Hunt was the sort of education healthy for education. Minister who would act severely and quickly if someone stepped out of line. The following was said Eventually governments do have to make decisions, of Or Watson in an article in the Age of 21 January but the opportunity for discussion, input and 1982: constructive criticism and scrutiny should be provided when those decisions are being made. In the report he described gross incompetence and Education is far too important to be left in the hands negligence on the part of VPSEC, and blames the of one or two people. One would think, from his commission for the disastrous turmoil the teachers' actions, that the Minister would like to have a buffer colleges of Victoria have been thrown into in the past between the Minister and some of the proposals that 18 months. have been made. The commission endeavoured to deal with a delicate The controversy concerning VPSEC flared up in amalgamation. Members need only look at what January 1982 when the then deputy chairman of the happened when the government attempted to commission, Or Jim Watson, got into serious trouble amalgamate local councils to realise how sensitive for criticising the commission. The then Minister for amalgamations are - politically sensitive, too. Education, the Honourable Alan Hunt, delivered the Amalgamations are always of concern. final blow to Or Watson, who was sacked by the Governor in Council. Or Watson had always been a The Bill allows the Minister to amalgamate controversial figure in the commission, and in some institutions, if he so desires, without reference to ways he provided a foil for the then chairman of the anybody other than Peter Kirby or his advisory commission, Or Graham AlIen, because he was not council. That is politically unwise. At least VPSEC TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1668 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 could get the blame for any problems - and there purposes. The opposition has some concerns about will always be problems with amalgamations or the this, and I have no doubt that if government removal of an institution - but now there will be members were in opposition they would have political trouble. similar concerns about the opportunity the legislation provides for pork-barrelling in creating One can imagine what would happen if it was new post-secondary institutions. intended to close down the country campus of a newly expanded university. Country communities The education argument can be taken back to 1982 would be outraged. There would be all sorts of when the Australian Labor Party, then in oppOSition, protests, and rightly so. There is an inherent fear of pledged in an article in the Australian on amalgamation. Wednesday, 10 March to overhaul VPSEC. The ALP said that obviously VPSEC was receiving much I know that concern was expressed in my own criticism and was not doing its job, so when it got community when the Gippsland Institute of into government it would overhaul VPSEC. The then Advanced Education was amalgamated with government overhauled VPSEC, but it continued to Monash University. The amalgamation has been create problems for the tertiary education sector, completed, so Gippsland campus has no although by and large it was supported by the independent status. There is some concern that, as colleges of advanced education; certainly it was not that campus provides a full range of tertiary well liked by universities. education courses, Monash might see Gippsland as an appendage it could do without. The lambasting of VPSEC continued through the 1980s and into the early 1990s, and in the Australian In light of dwindling funds, Monash University says of 10 April 1991 there was the banner headline, it cannot afford to have that "expensive" college in ''Victorian tertiary heads lambast advisory body". Gippsland and that it will be closed down so that Leading the charge on the advisory funds can be directed towards Melbourne. There is body - VPSEC - was the Vice-Chancellor of no shortage of students, so Monash University Melbourne UniverSity, Professor Penington, who would not need to worry about whether students said he believed it was a cumbersome bureaucracy would come from Gippsland to Melbourne to gain a which interfered with what he was doing. tertiary education. The fear of the closure of the Gippsland campus has always existed. He said that VPSEC required data from State universities and colleges which duplicated a lot of There is a perception that country Victoria has what universities had to provide to the Federal always been done short in tertiary education government. He said that it was a cumbersome opportunities. People, particularly professional bureaucracy and a fairly costly operation, estimated people, will tend not to want to live in provincial at $15 million. As Professor Penington is sometimes areas of Victoria if tertiary education opportunities wont to do, he exaggerated to make his point. There are not available for their children. was a reply that indicated that VPSEC ran on an allocation of only $1.8 million from the State Budget. It is critical that we have some control over what Interference by anyone was resented by Melbourne campuses may be closed or opened by universities. University. I spent almost 20 years as a student at As we understand the legislation - I do not mean to that university. be derogatory and I say this with the greatest respect - it gives the Minister the opportunity to do To the credit of the government, under the Bill the some great pork-barrelling. The current Minister Minister is able to require Melbourne University - says he will not do that, but future Ministers may indeed, anyone of the other six universities - to not have such high integrity and may be tempted to provide figures and other information. The relevant create institutions in the country or in any part of clause in the Bill states that the Minister will be able Victoria - for example, in the eastern suburbs of to require any information he thinks desirable. So it Melbourne - providing university-type courses, appears that there will still be the opportunity for being a university in everything but name, a the post-secondary sector to be scrutinised. The Clayton's university, the university you have when opposition applauds that provision. It is critical. you are not having a university. I do not have any problem with getting into an The legislation leaves open the opportunity to create argument with Professor Penington because there such institutions for political rather than educational are not too many radical left wing vice-chancellors TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thurs.day, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1669 these days. Although I do not know whether ''My view is that Victorian higher education needs a Professor Penington accurately fits that description, coordinating or regulatory body". it is S()mething that needs to be noted. Professor Penington goes on to say in the same article: The opposition agrees with that statement. The Bill is deficient in that it does not provide for a '1t does not necessarily have to be an independent coordinating and regulatory body. By the very authority. It can be an office within the Ministry for the nature of the Bill those functions are taken on board coordination of higher education such as New South by the Minister, and that is where a major problem Wales has, which is a very cost-effective way of exists. handling it. In 1991 the government continued to address the If one wanted to be cynical one could say it looks coordination that is required through all the major like Professor Penington has got his way; he has got sectors of higher education or post-secondary rid of the Victorian Post-Secondary Education education. On 5 August 1991 following a speech in Commission and has ended up with a Bill that will the Legislative Council, the then Minister for Higher create what he wants -although I bet you pounds Education, the Honourable Barry Pullen, issued a to peanuts that he does not like the authority the Bill press release announcing the establishment of the gives the Minister. Office of Higher Education. Within the Ministry of Education as it was then known was the State Certainly there have been accusations about the Training Board, the Board of Adult, Community and operations of VPSEC, which has always been a thorn Further Education and VPSEC. The then Minister in the side of Melbourne UniverSity. Professor decided to put the boards together and create the Penington has never been one of the great Office of Higher Education to improve coordination supporters of VPSEC over the years; in fact he was a and organisation. major critic. It seems to me Melbourne University has become a more overtly political institution than That was the proper direction to take. The it was back in the days of Professor Caro, the former Department of Education currently has to deal with vice-chancellor, who used to be a great teacher of the State Training Board, which has provided an physics and who made few overt comments. outstanding service in alternative industrial training in this State. It must also deal with the Adult, Universities have become more and more political as Community and Further Education Board. Those they have been financially squeezed by the Federal boards are critical to post-secondary education in government and as the Federal government has Victoria. The Victorian Post-Secondary Education attempted to tell them what to teach and when to Commission will no longer exist. The Bill provided teach it. The universities do not like that! an opportunity of creating an independent statutory authority which could have provided coordination In some ways I agree with the universities; there is across a complicated, large and growing sector. an argument for teaching classical Greek as well as However, that difficult task will be taken on by Peter the modem subjects. The problem is that people Kirby and some extremely competent officers who have seen education as the panacea to all the will assist him. That is only part of the solution to problems facing the community. Indeed universities the problems facing the coordination of tertiary should be providing training for people to go into education. industry, but universities would argue that over the years they have successfully both provided a basic, The opposition has some problems with the sound education and properly prepared students for provisions in the Bill dealing with the creation of jobs. universities, whether they be real or Clayton's universities. Creating universities without the Cuts in Federal government funding have altered scrutiny of Parliament sets a precedent. A university the focus of universities, and the amalgamation of has never been created without the approval and the colleges of advanced education will put more scrutiny of both Houses of this Parliament. pressure on them, which is a real problem. I shall quote the view expressed by Professor Skilbeck The opposition believes it is a serious problem that when he was the vice-chancellor of Deakin institutions providing university-type courses and University: university accredited courses can be created without the scrutiny of Parliament. The way Parliament has controlled and organised universities within the TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

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State is important, and the opposition is concerned The Bill provides for the endorsement of courses of about the provisions in the Bill. study for overseas students, many of whom pay fees. That is one the biggest growth areas in tertiary Only one private university has been established in education. There has been a great deal of this country and that is the Bond University, which controversy and argument about and criticism of the has been a dismal failure - heaven knows why! I number of overseas students in our universities guess it says something about market forces, but I because the community is concerned about the do not believe in market forces. The university was shortage of places for Australian students. The doomed from its inception because it had to Federal government has made it clear that it expects compete with Sydney and Melbourne universities. the universities and TAFE colleges to take overseas As honourable members are aware, there is a status fee-paying students, but the community believes and pecking order covering universities. those places should be taken up by Australian Honourable members can all recall that when students. Monash University was established Melbourne University was always the first preference of One of the real challenges for the government is to students. Monash University moved from the balance the need for financial viability with the bottom when La Trobe University was established. needs of the marketplace. I ask the Minister to In the last decade Monash has developed a inform the House how he will endorse courses of reputation of its own and is now equal in status to study. There are 15 matters that the Minister may Melbourne University. take into account, which include financial planning, marketing, use of agents, contracts, student housing, The creation of private universities puts unnecessary student welfare services, class sizes - that is a pressures on tertiary education in this State. Given topical issue that was never a major concern until the history of Bond University one wonders whether university lecture halls were overflowing - student there has been a great demand for places there. contact hours, curriculum and so forth. The Minister may have regard to any or all of those factors; some Some might say that economists rule the world, but are critical, some are not. Whether we take in look at the mess they have made. The world was not overseas students or allocate more places to in a mess until the economists took over! Australian students, those factors are critical to the Universities have tended to produce economics and operation of any institution and the same set of commerce graduate clones. We need a diversity of criteria should be applied. I suspect those sorts of thought in the economics taught at universities and criteria should be used in primary and secondary colleges of advanced education. Economics should schools. be more practical. The commerce courses at the universities of Melbourne, Monash, New South Some safeguards are included, but the wording of Wales, New England, Queensland and Western the Bill is so loose that one has no idea of how the Australia produce the same brand of economists. No Minister will go about implementing them. More wonder there is a sickness in economics; the importantly, there does not seem to be any provision diSCipline is inbred! We need graduates who have for the outside scrutiny of the decisions that will be studied diverse subjects so that those who enter the made. They may be made in camera, but that is not bureaucracies at both State and Federal level have the way to operate, especially in the tertiary different views of the world. education sector.

Although clause 8 contains the power to acquire The Bill will allow overseas universities to set up land, it makes no distinction between private and campuses in Victoria. Two or three years ago the public universities. The compulsory acquisition of Tasman Institute wanted to set up a university, but land is always a difficult issue. I hope the it went on to greater or lesser things - depending government does not intend to compulsorily acquire on which view one takes! There is the possibility land for private universities. Planning is vital, that we may move into a dollar-driven education because compulsory acquisition is difficult even system. If Oxford or Cambridge want to open up a when it is done on behalf of the community. Those university in Australia, the needs of our society concerns may well be discussed when the Minister should be considered. It should not be a matter of makes his response on the clause. The opposition is someone seeing a market opportunity. The concerned about the loose drafting of the Bill. opposition would object if the education system was driven by the dollar. Everyone associated with education has a caring nature. TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1671

The SPEAKER - Order! The time allotted for the Mr DOYLE - It may interest the honourable second-reading stage of the Bill has now expired. member to know that over the past five years the The question is: number of law schools in Australia has doubled. I am not sure whether that moves education forwards That this Bill be now read a second time. or backwards!

Motion agreed to. The name TAPE, with its notion of technical training, is something of a misnomer. It conjures up Read second time. pictures of 19th century factories, of huge factory floors with vast machines and people scurrying Committed. around them. TAPE is about business courses and service training as much as anything else, Committee particularly for the hospitality industry. I would define TAPE as being vocational education and Clause 1 training. The honourable member for Morwell probably agrees with me that this sector has been Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - The purpose of the neglected for far too long. We must not sell it short. Tertiary Education Bill is to provide a context for The Bill will assist in tailoring vocational education good education in Victoria, by enabling the so that it is more suited to preparing young people promotion, development and coordination of for their roles in society and work. tertiary education and training. I intend to split those two terms, tertiary education and training, It is interesting to compare vocational education in because in recent years they have become blurred. Australia with what is happening overseas. It is By "tertiary education" I mean universities and what often said that Japan, one of our major trading they do and by "training" I mean TAPE colleges and partners, is a dynamo in the world economy. Most what they do. I echo the comments of the vocational training in that country is undertaken honourable member for Morwell, who bemoaned within industry; but that is not the way we are the demise of the old councils of adult education. I heading. I should like Australia to head down the heartily endorse his condemnation of the loss of the path Germany has taken, which has dual system, CAEs. with responsibility for training vested in industry and in a system of vocational education centres. The value of the TAPE and university sectors is that Places in those centres are highly sought after. They each makes different contributions to pathways for provide pathways for the most able young people in those who wish to move into post-secondary German society. The vocational education centres education. The Bill provides a spectrum of are highly competitive with the university sector. educational opportunities for people. It addresses how we can best provide post-secondary education I hope the Victorian TAPE sector becomes a opportunities for all those who wish to pursue it. complementary and equally valid destination as the university sector, especially for schoolleavers. That The Bill is an important step in a new era, an era that is where the work that has been done, which will be will help government, universities and the TAFE encouraged by this Bill, on articulation and credit educational system to work cooperatively, not transfer, will pay dividends. I pay tribute to VPSEC competitively, to offer a coherent range of for its work on credit transfers. Provision will be post-secondary educational programs. That is made for the direct transition of young people from required specifically in Victoria in what has been school to TAPE to higher education. called higher education. We must recognise the strong need for diversity in our system to allow Mr Hamilton interjected. institutions to pursue their different missions. I want them all to be proud of what they offer. The last Mr DOYLE - I do not suggest by any means that thing Victoria needs is a proliferation of law schools TAPE should be just a feeder system for universities. or 50 institutions all trying to excel in fundamental I am referring to the links that should exist between research. systems. In Victoria we are encouraging those links between universities and TAPE colleges. A number Mr Hamilton - Especially law schools! of pilot projects under way will lead to continuing arrangements of benefit to students who wish to build on their TAPE qualifications for advanced TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1672 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 study. The Victorian government has allocated and assist in our international competitiveness. We $4 million for those projects in Victoria's universities. all welcome that. I caution against getting onto the bandwagon of CBET, especially when it is offered as Recently Towers Perrin researched the educational a cure-all for all educational sectors. systems of Germany, France, Hong Kong and Singapore. A common feature discovered in those If we are to adequately prepare students in any countries was a highly differentiated upper educational sector for their future we must never secondary school system of streams catering for forget that education is a process and not an university-type education, vocational education and outcome. The process of education cannot be technical education. In Australia, and particularly in prescribed by an approach which focuses solely on Victoria, we have lost that sense of differentiation. outcomes, on the detailed prescriptive snapshots of We have lost that sense of purpose as to what each supposed workplace performance. sector does. What happened to those purposes? Competency-based education and training focuses Universities must not be assumed to be places for only on outcomes, and downgrades the importance mass education. The Federal Labor government of things like knowledge for its own sake, the treated universities as if they were all the same and development of character and the development of as if all students had the same aspirations. They do imagination. It downgrades the importance of not. The community and students have varying intangible intellectual goods. You cannot observe or needs, and because of the ideology of the Federal measure those attributes. Labor government, the different potential of students has not been well met. Mr Hamilton - You definitely can't measure them. In the 1980s vocational education in Victoria was neglected by the Federal government, as it focused Mr DOYLE - We need to promote our TAFE on higher education and tried to offer university courses. They are the courses that will meet modem education to all, regardless of whether students vocational education requirements and lead to needed it, wanted it or were suited to it. A revamp interesting and rewarding employment. of technical training is happening now - and it is welcomed - but I sound a note of caution. There is This government is in the course of simplifying the a rush from the Australian National Training process for students who wish to apply to either the AuthOrity, under the auspices of Laurie Carmichael, university or TAFE sector. That is to be welcomed. A to consider competency-based education and common admission process is being developed, and training (CBET) as a solution to the educational I hope that through such a process we will raise the problems in all sectors. It is not. Competency-based value and stature of T AFE courses; but we need to education and training is being hailed as an answer remember, as I have already said, that universities to the problems of the vocational sector, the and the T AFE sector are not doing the same thing. post-secondary sector and universities. When people try to question that proposition, they are called What do universities do? Universities pursue elitist, or accused of turning back the dock. Worse excellence. They must not be satisfied with still, if you do not agree with competency-based minimum standards of competence, and that is training across all sectors, it assumed that you are where the TAFE and university roles are different. I opposed to the redevelopment and expansion of the suggest the argument about competence versus the training sector. intangible intellectual goods argument, competence versus excellence, could be read about in the most I believe the concepts of competency-based recent publication of the Institute of Public Affairs, education and training are Significant and the IPA Review. I know the honourable member for worthwhile and they certainly have an important Morwell will run to that publication to see what place in training, but they are not a cure for all our Professor David Penington says, and I recommend it educational ills. Competency-based training would to him. I acknowledge David Penington as a be inappropriate for occupations that depend on valuable and valued touchstone of my thinking on changing knowledge and changing skill bases. The the tertiary sector. I am sure that will go down well educational aim of the competency movement is to with the honourable member for Morwell! teach workplace skills, which means defined terms and observable and measurable outcomes. Its Universities pursue knowledge and provide an objective is laudable and excellent because that type environment where young people can be extended of training seeks to improve our industrial efficiency to their full potential. They develop talented young TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1673 people to lead us forward as a nation into a two effects on our system: firstly, a preoccupation changing future. with equity and an emphasis on a single undifferentiated path for all, so that the pattern of It is interesting to read what the former Prime expansion eclipsed the importance of vocational Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, said in 1939, because training; secondly, the exclusive focus on expansion he made that point well. In The Place of a University and equity by way of access has masked concerns in the Modern Community, Sir Robert Menzies said: about serious deficiencies in basic literacy and numeracy skills in students leaving school, thereby Democracy demands leaders and leadership. It threatening the quality of university education. demands leaders who will not be afraid to tell the people that they are wrong and endeavour to persuade There is a traditional distinction between higher and guide them. education and training for specific occupations. We should be careful before we abandon that Australia needs young people who are able to move distinction. TAFE delivers training for the with changing times, to move to the cutting edge of performance needs of the workplace. University is knowledge and technology. Through our about preparing people for a changing future and universities and leading academics we have access about training people who are prepared to challenge to that cutting edge. present practices. According to one of the oldest definitions, it is about the pursuit of truth. Professor Ron Johnston of the Sydney University Centre for Innovation and International The education-training dichotomy has been under Competitiveness has looked at what happens in attack in recent years, not least by the Finn Japan. In that country new knowledge is responsible committee. There is some justification for that attack for about 50 per cent of annual economic growth; if academics have no understanding of the world of further, 25 per cent of the value of world trade work, but those criticisms cannot deny the comes from new technologies through research and fundamental difference between theoretical and development. practical forms of knowledge. There will never be a truly seamless way to jOin those two worlds, so we What happens in Australia, in Victoria? The Institute must acknowledge that distinction and recognise the of Engineers of Australia has recently found in a importance of both. survey that Australia is falling further and further behind the leading high technology countries. It is Therefore, we need to understand the natures of interesting to consider the contribution of Australian higher education and training and recognise the universities. In 1992 it is estimated that between 5 importance of opportunities that this Bill offers in and 15 companies were spin-offs from the activities higher education, in training and in the overlap of Australian universities. Universities must be in a between those sectors. We need traditional pOSition to contribute more in that way if we are to universities and we need strong vocational training compete with countries like Japan, where 50 per cent sectors like TAFE. of annual economic growth is generated by new knowledge. In the end the experience of individual students is what counts in either TAFE or university. That will I return to the spectrum of opportunities I described determine their personal futures and, collectively, when talking about universities and TAFE. I shall the T AFE and university sectors will give Victoria talk a little about the clever country myth that has the educated men and women needed to take become so current. A destructive line of thinking has advantage of the social, cultural and economic run something like this: if you were better changes that characterise our society. educated - that is, with a degree - you would get a better job and therefore earn more money; if you Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - In recent times it graduated you would have a higher income and the seems as though I have developed the practice of productivity and economic wellbeing of the country following the contributions on education Bills by the would be enhanced. That has proven not to be so, as honourable member for Malvern. When he began I unemployed graduates in our community will tell thought he may have stolen some of my speech you. notes, because I also had noted that one of the most fundamental things about post-secondary The massive expansion in the later years of education - about which I have some concern and education caused by that sort of thinking has had about which the honourable member for Malvern TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1674 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 was also expressing concern - is that we should not that students do not have to come to Melbourne to go down a pathway which increasingly tends to gain access to courses that offer that diversity? They treat university education and the provision of are important post-secondary education issues in TAPE education as somehow the same and which provincial and rural Victoria. turns TAPE colleges into universities of another form. During the whole of its existence I had the privilege of serving on the Barwon South-Western Region I strongly agree with the honourable member for Technical and Further Education Board. I was Malvern that that is not the way to go with disappointed when the board was abolished because post-secondary education. At present there are two I believed it was playing an important role in quite distinct systems in place, and we should be addressing precise needs in provincial and rural working towards keeping them distinct and areas. The task of the board was to examine ways in separate. It is also important to add that in keeping which post-secondary education should be provided them separate we are not implying that one is from Geelong to the South Australian border. superior to the other. That fact is most important and should be noted by all honourable members. I see that the Chairman of Committees is glancing at They are different pathways - not superior or me; he would be aware of the region about which I inferior, but simply different. am speaking. The board came to grips with the matter and developed a number of plans. When it Therefore, as has been expressed previously, the was abolished it had developed specific plans for the purposes of the Bill are to provide for the better area. An attempt was made to balance the promotion, development and coordination of competing issues of how to resource country areas post-secondary education in Victoria - a laudable sufficiently without waste and unnecessary aim. To take it further, in his second-reading speech duplication while providing diversity of education the Minister said this would involve a greater to students within those areas. capacity for cooperative planning between the education system, other arms of government, The problem was exacerbated in the electorate of the community providers and the private sector. We see honourable member for Warmambool with the that as a positive step and something that we should provision of post-secondary education through the be working towards. They are worthwhile aims Warmambool College of TAPE, which had to which the opposition should have no problems in provide effective education not only in the Portland supporting. area, which had special needs because of the Alcoa smelter, but also in the Horsham area and the The shadow Minister referred to the differentiation so-called "green triangle" area of the State. between the two systems and the Minister's power to accredit university status and courses to different I was a member of the board, and we had to post-secondary education bodies. The Minister examine how to provide the diversity necessary for should not have direct power to accredit university those communities while not wasting resources by status in the way envisaged in the Bill; it should be unnecessary duplication. We set about kept at arm's length and administered by some form implementing a ID-year plan at the request of the of accreditation body. office of the TAPE board. Unfortunately at the time we delivered the plan the board threw the process In his second-reading speech the Minister referred to into chaos because it did not expect anyone to post-secondary education as playing a fundamental complete a plan and did not know what to do with role in Victoria's social and economic development, it. The plan was short lived because regional boards especially in provincial and rural areas. The were wound up. situation in provincial and rural areas is different from that in the Melbourne metropolitan area. One I hope the planning that was carried out may be fed of the differences is in achieving diversity. We into the system that the Minister is now setting up. should not try to turn each of our institutions into a That relates to one of the other points the Minister clone of the other; we do not wish to see the same refers to in his second-reading speech -linkages courses replicated in each institution. Diversity in with other bodies. Linkages are relevant to areas country and provincial areas raises different such as my electorate, where, in the City of Geelong, questions. How, with limited access, does one there is a long-established college of TAPE and one achieve the necessary diverSity, and how does one of the newer universities, Deakin University. Those set up post-secondary education in country areas so two bodies have linked well because Deakin TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1675

University was developed from the Gordon College determining what resources had priority in rural of T AFE. Some of the early courses at the Gordon Victoria. were transferred to Deakin University. When I was at the Gordon College of TAFE the course I was I hope the Minister considers the needs of areas such studying was, on the formation of Deakin as Geelong, which are very different from the University, transferred across and I became in effect metropolitan area. He will have the power to declare one of the first students and one of the first university functions in different areas without graduates of the university. coming to Parliament. That could mean that the major universities, which are located in the The linkages that were set up by the transfer of metropolitan area and which have more clout than schools were important and allowed contact the institutions that are scattered throughout rural between the two bodies, which was a cooperative Victoria, will have more influence on the Minister, contact that worked to the benefit of both and that will work against the interests of rural institutions. It is important in rural areas that institutions. The Minister will need to reassure those competing bodies cooperate. We must always who .live outside the metropolitan area that they will maintain the linkages on the basis that both of the be treated fairly. systems involved play important and equal roles in serving the community. The Victorian Post-Secondary Education Commission has been criticised, but at least it was Recently there has been an amalgamation of able to carry out its functions adequately. In educational institutions in the Warrnambool area, addition, Parliament was able to debate any decision with the Warrnambool College of TA FE becoming to create a university and decide what resources part of Deakin University. The provision of would be provided to post-secondary education university education has been taken further into the institutions. Barwon south-western region and will be of benefit to students. These issues are important for rural and I am also concerned that technical and further provincial Victoria, and the Barwon south-western education will be misrepresented. Honourable region has been better served than other parts of members must remember that T AFE is not simply a Victoria, which have not had the opportunity of mechanism for providing vocational training; it has developing the linkages about which I spoke. a much wider role in the community. Vocational skills are a central function, but they are not the only Sitting suspended 6.30 p.m. until 8.4 p.m. function of TAFE colleges, which play an important role in the community, particularly in provincial and Mr LONEY - Prior to the suspension of the rural communities, because they enrich personal Sitting I was discussing the need to ensure that some skills, encourage a return to studies and provide form of comprehensive post-secondary education is access and equity, which is an important function. I available in rural and provincial areas so that am proud to highlight the former Labor students in those areas are not forced to travel to the government's achievements in access and equity. metropolitan area for their post-secondary education. That leads me to discuss part of the Bill I hope the Minister will take up the points I have which may in some way work against the provision made, particularly regarding rural and provincial of comprehensive post-secondary services in rural areas. Victoria. The Bill has the capacity to centralise the provision of resources by placing them in the hands Mr KILGOUR (Shepparton) - Because of the of the Minister rather than in the hands of the increasing number of students staying on at high communities that are affected. Honourable members school and moving into tertiary and higher who represent provincial and rural areas should be education institutions, important requirements have concerned about that provision. emerged during the past few years. Even though many people are unable to find employment, new As the shadow Minister has said, it may be an jobs are being developed and many people need to unfounded concern and this Minister may not use it, develop their skills by undertaking tertiary and but the Bill still contains that power. There are more higher education courses. Since 1978 when the ways of achieving a rational and satisfactory principal Act came into being, many changes have provision of post-secondary education throughout taken place in tertiary education. The Minister for rural Victoria than through centralisation. As I said Education understands that the government must earlier, regional T AFE boards worked well in provide a better tertiary education system that meets TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1676 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993

the needs of the community. The Bill will facilitate I congratulate the Minister for Tertiary Education the government's aim of better promotion, and Training, the Honourable Haddon Storey, on development and coordination within the ensuring that the needs of the Victorian College of post-secondary education system. Agriculture and Horticulture are being addressed. The Minister has formed a committee that will The Bill abolishes the Victorian Post-Secondary report to him on the need for tertiary education in Education Commission and establishes the Tertiary the Goulburn Valley. Unfortunately, although many Education and Training Advisory Council to advise students commence their courses at the TAFE the Minister on tertiary and higher education. Over college of Shepparton, they have to go to Bendigo or the past few years higher education has changed Melbourne to complete their courses. Hundreds of significantly to keep pace with changes in students leave Shepparton each year to complete technology. Institutions have sometimes changed courses elsewhere, and many would benefit by direction to ensure that they cover areas that staying at home. industry requires and cope with the modem technolOgical society. The honourable member for Morwell may smile: Churchill has a fine institution and the children from The tertiary education structure was entirely the Latrobe Valley do not have to leave home to gain different in 1978 when the principal Act was qualifications. Many parents in Shepparton are faced enacted. There were 4 universities and 23 colleges of with the extra cost of many thousands of dollars advanced education. Approximately 94 000 students because their children have to leave home to gain were enrolled in universities and advanced further education. I support two children who are education colleges and 170000 in technical and attending tertiary education courses away from further education. We now have seven universities home. It is a hardship that the parents of students in and 168 000 students enrolled in higher education Melbourne do not face. The Goulburn Valley programs. Victoria has 30 TAFE colleges catering for requires many more university places to stop the 228 000 students. Many more students are enrolled exodus of young people from Shepparton, so it is in further education programs in TAFE and in hoped that the adviSOry council will ensure the programs offered by community providers. The proper planning of tertiary education places total number of students involved is almost 650 000. throughout Victoria.

The advisory council, which is essential to advise the The Bill provides safeguards for students, because it Minister on the future direction of tertiary ensures that there is a check on the quality of education, will comprise independent people with institutions. That is vitally important as Australia expertise in a range of areas. Further support moves into the next century, because Victorian committees may be established, if required, to cover graduates will play an important role in society. The areas such as the accreditation of courses of study, Minister will be empowered to endorse courses after particularly with further education programs. The proper consultation and after taking account of the Bill allows the Minister to obtain information from financial planning of an organisation and the institutions as required so that he can monitor the marketing and promotion of courses within the area. effectiveness of tertiary education courses. Students' grievances will be examined, as will the The electorate of Shepparton does not have requirement for student hOUSing. Welfare services sufficient post-secondary institutions because past for students, the monitoring of student attendance, planners did not understand the needs of regional the selection procedures for students, the classes population centres. The Victorian College of those facilities will offer, the type of premises that Agriculture and Horticulture at Dookie is an will be provided and the qualifications of staff are all excellent institution, the principal of which is Peter important. Ryan. A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of attending a graduation ceremony at that college. The Bill also provides a refreshing approach to Many graduates of Dookie are now leaders of tertiary education. Through planning and agriculture throughout Victoria and Australia. The coordination it will change the structure and college also has a school of nursing and, even operation of post-secondary education and will take though its funding has been reduced, the school will the sector into the next century. The Bill provides the provide positions for nurses to train in the future. legislative framework for cooperation among the various education sectors and will ensure that one sector does not work against another. The Bill will TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1677 bring together the various arms of government, committee report, because it was a natural corollary community providers, the private sector and the of the recommendations. school education system. I do not wish to see the promotion, development I congratulate the Minister for introducing the Bill. I and coordination of tertiary education treated as a am sure that with its passage tertiary and higher Ministerial plaything. I do not want to see an education in this State will become second to none. education Minister in any State - I am not personalising my remarks by singling out the Or V AUGHAN (Clayton) - The main purpose Minister for Education, who is at the table - placed of the Bill is to provide for the better promotion, in a situation where he or she can inflict upon the development and coordination of post-secondary people his or her prejudices or ideologies of tertiary education in Victoria. It is time to review the education. I am concerned that the Bill has the Post-Secondary Education Act. Enormous changes potential to bring that about. I am also concerned have been made to the landscape of tertiary that the Bill will concentrate too much power in the education both in the State and across the rest of the hands of the Minister. All the decisions to be made country, and a legislative instrument is needed to need to be finely balanced, but the balance in the Bill take cOgnisance of all those changes. is wrong. I shall address that matter nearer to the conclusion of my remarks. It is time to review not only the principal Act but also the role of State governments in tertiary In general universities in this State behave like education. Since the 19605 the funding of tertiary medieval principalities. They war among education has been the responsibility of the national themselves, they make alliances among themselves government. The decision to fund tertiary education and they constantly jostle for advantage. They play was made as a consequence of an initiative taken politics in the tertiary sector, and they play it hard. If during the Menzies era, a time in Australian politics one thinks politics in State Parliament is rough, one that honourable members opposite would reflect on should have a look at the tertiary scene! I need as one of great glory. Although it was a time when mention only the name of Professor Penington to many national issues were neglected, one issue prove my point. Vice-chancellors wield great power which was addressed under the Menzies but they are only nominally accountable for the government in the 19605 and about which Liberal exercise of that power. If the Minister has not members can be proud was tertiary education. discovered that in the past six months - perhaps it is the Minister in the other place, the Minister for The decisions that resulted from the Tertiary Education and Training, rather than the recommendations of the 1963 Martin committee Minister in this Chamber who has had the blowtorch report on education were a turning point in the applied to his belly - it is a discovery he will soon provision of tertiary education in Australia. It is now make. The more the Minister nominated in the Bill time to recognise that the promotion, development wants to accumulate power over tertiary education, and coordination of tertiary education is a national the more that Minister will feel the vice-chancellors' responsibility. It is anachronistic and silly to have blow torch. State governments legislating on tertiary institutions. Where is the national vision in that? Mr Doyle interjected. Where is the accountability in that? Where is the commonsense in that? Or V AUGHAN - I shall pick up another interjection of the honourable member for Malvern. Mr Doyle interjected. The decisions affecting tertiary education in Victoria that have been made in the 20 years I have been a Or V AUGHAN - To pick up the interjection keen observer have not always been made on from the honourable member for Malvern, local rational grounds. Many of the decisions and structures would be needed to facilitate experiments in tertiary education over the past participation in decision making, formulation of couple of decades have been ill considered. policy, planning and coordination, but it is not necessary or even desirable that State governments Perhaps I should go farther back than 20 years, to be involved. That should be the clear responsibility the Victorian Institute of Colleges and various other of the national government. I do not understand strange educational creatures that were created by why that was not a consequence of the 1963 Martin legislation passed by this House. Many poor decisions have been made in tertiary education TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1678 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 during my adult life. But in the past few years some Mc Chairman, you are also an old boy of that excellent decisions have been made in this area. I say institution. I then went on to the Royal Melbourne that without bias, of course, and with personal Institute of Technology, as it then was, one of the satisfaction in some of the results that have been fine technical institutions in Victoria. It was only achieved. Problems have been experienced in then that I went to university, where I needed to making appropriate quality decisions in respect of complete only the second half of a degree, having tertiary education in this State. received due credit for the experience I had gained in the senior technical system. That path, which was Mr Pert on - Mr Chairman, I direct to your open in the 1960s and 1970s in science and attention the state of the Committee. engineering, should be expanded across a range of courses and career paths. That is a very positive Quorum formed. development and I wish to see it continue.

Or V AUGHAN - Before the interruption I was Today the doors of universities open wider than saying that the proposed legislation seems to be they did a decade ago, and much wider than they capable of making the decision-making process in did two decades ago. That positive trend in tertiary tertiary education in Victoria worse rather than education is also apparent elsewhere in the country better. I have a concern that the structure is and provides greater opportunities for people to inappropriate. acquire further education.

Clause 1 is also concerned with the promotion of I suggest to the Minister that the proposed tertiary education in Victoria. One of the great legislation would have been much better if it had achievements of the post-secondary education sector gone through the Parliamentary committee system in Victoria during the 1980s was the steps that were prior to being processed through this House. We in taken towards cross-accreditation in post-secondary the Victorian Parliament do not use Parliamentary education. We have seen cooperation between committees as well as we -- technical and further education colleges, universities and other providers of tertiary education. I am keen Mr Perton - Why do you think you have the to see cross-accreditation expanded as a concept; it is Chairman of Committees here? the way of the future. The CHAIRMAN Mr J. F. McGrath) - Order! Cross-accreditation is an important ingredient in The honourable member for Doncaster is out of achieving the clever country status to which order and out of his place. reference was made by an earlier speaker in this debate. It can provide a path by which a person who Or VAUGHAN - This Parliament does not use begins as an unskilled worker on the factory floor Select Committees as well or as often as it might. can proceed through an apprenticeship, certificate, Important Bills would benefit greatly from the diploma, degree and on from there, with a credit at detailed scrutiny of a Parliamentary committee. each stage for the education provided. There is not, however, an existing joint investigatory committee to which I would wish to refer the Bill. Cross-accreditation is not a new concept. I Even following the changes that have occurred in experienced the benefits of cross-accreditation when the committee system over the past six months the I entered university through the back door. At Parliament is left without a committee that really 15 years of age, after completing my secondary has-- education to intermediate level, I entered the senior technical school system -- Mr Perton interjected.

Mr Hamilton - That's great! The CHAIRMAN - Order! The honourable member for Doncaster is out of his place and out of Or VAUGHAN - I attended Gordon Institute of order. Technology. Or V AUGHAN - The lack of a suitable Mr Hamilton - That is not so great! committee to which a Bill such as this could be referred is a clear deficiency in the joint Or VAUGHAN - It was probably called Gordon investigatory committee structure of this Parliament. Technical College at some stage. If I recall correctly, TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

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In suggesting that the Bill would benefit from does not have to publish all guidelines, only the ones detailed scrutiny, I am really referring to scrutiny of he puts in or considers appropriate. a Select Committee of this House. lbat is the model that deserves consideration by the government. In Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - It is the early months of its term in office the government my understanding that the Minister for Tertiary has pushed legislation through Parliament with Education and Training intends that any and all great haste. Once the government, Cabinet and guidelines be published in the Government Gazette. individual Ministers gain more experience and, perhaps, more maturity, I hope they will be Amendment agreed to. prepared to consider the greater use of the Parliamentary committee system and, in particular, Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education) - I Select Committees of this House to review proposed move: legislation before it is processed through the House. 2. Clause 6, page 5, line 32, omit"a reasonable fee for" and insert "any fee prescribed for investigating". The Bill before the House addresses important issues. I am greatly concerned that the proposed This is also self-explanatory, and again it was legislation does not maintain that certain fine recommended by the Scrutiny of Acts and balance and places too much potential for misuse of Regulations Committee. It simply changes the power in the hands of the Minister of the day. In that phrase "a reasonable fee for" to "any fee prescribed context, it is ill considered. for investigating".

In conclusion, I go back to my earlier point that Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - The opposition tertiary education has been recognised since the supports the amendment. The prescribed fee could early 19605 as being a national responsibility. It is be Significant given that the Minister may need to time that we left it to the national government to put appoint a body. I do not think any members would in place structures to administer, coordinate, expect that the Minister will be doing all those promote and develop post-secondary education things on his own. The amendment is Significant and across Australia. the opposition agrees with it.

Clause agreed to; clauses 2 to 5 agreed to. Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - I thank the Minister for Education for moving the amendment. At this Clause 6 point I indicate that the Honourable Haddon Storey, the responsible Minister in the other place, has been Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education) - I very cooperative. I commend him on the full set of move: amendments.

1. Clause 6, page 5, line 12, after "(3)" insert "and must This amendment maintains the supremacy of publish any guidelines that are issued in the Parliament. I pay tribute to the Minister for Government Gazette." expeditiously making the changes recommended. The amendment is self-explanatory. It makes provision for the publication of guidelines through Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to; the Government Gazette. It was suggested by the clauses 7 to 9 agreed to. Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee. Clause 10 Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - The opposition's concern is with the phrase "all or any". All criteria The CHAIRMAN - Order! I understand that if from subparagraphs (a) to (q) are Significant. The the honourable member for Morwellloses his first wording of the amendment still indicates that the amendment he will also lose amendments Nos 2 and Minister may not have to take into account any of 3. The honourable member for Morwell may like to those criteria but also may not need to publish all canvass amendments Nos 1, 2 and 3. I further advise guidelines. There is still a lack of continuity. I trust the honourable member that he will also lose that the sense of the amendment moved by the amendments Nos 2 to 6 if he loses the first one. Minister is that he will publish all guidelines issued in relation to any of the criteria named in clause 6(3). Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - I move: Perhaps the Minister would like to comment on that. 1. Clause 10, line 11, omit "(1)". The amendment seems to suggest that the Minister TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1680 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

One must always be optimistic. The amendments all subclauses after subclause (2). That seems very that have been circulated in my name, Nos 1 to 6, all odd indeed when one considers subclause (3). relate to the concern of the opposition that it is possible under the legislation for an institution that Subclause (3) deals with what the Minister must can award university degrees to be created without have regard to - matters that are in the interests of the approval of the Parliament, which is a significant the community. For example, certain elements of the departure from what has happened in the history of courses of an institution established in a foreign this State at least. It would be most undesirable for country must be recognised by the Minister. What that to occur, given the importance and significance surprises me is that the attitude of the honourable of higher education, especially university education. member for Morwell seems to be that if, for instance, Oxford, Cambridge or a distinguished American In some ways this departure could be seen to university choose to offer a course of studies in downgrade the importance of universities. I am a Victoria the government ought not to countenance little surprised that there has not been more jumping such a course. I urge him to withdraw the up and down from people such as Professor amendment and to take the matter up with the Penington, who has a great sense of the value of the Minister between Houses. University of Melbourne. One could say he guards its reputation jealously. He would say that it would Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - The honourable be somewhat degrading to the university sector if he member has almost confirmed my long-held belief were not able to ensure that any college or that I have yet to meet an intelligent lawyer! The institution offering a higher degree or any university purpose of the amendment is to bring the university accredited course could be ordained without the sector under the scrutiny of Parliament, which the approval of Parliament. opposition does not believe is unreasonable.

The supremacy of Parliament should be guarded All members should learn that in drafting jealously. It should be guarded just as jealously as amendments one sometimes needs to take the tertiary education or any other matter which is of advice of other people who are better qualified on Significance to the people of Victoria. such matters so that it is done correctiy. The intention of the amendment is quite clear. No Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education) - I surreptitious motive is involved. Indeed, we have thank the honourable member for Morwell for his been given the best advice available in this place in comments, which are consistent with those in his attending to the wording and structure of these speech in the second-reading debate. I am advised amendments. The honourable member for that the government does not share the concern of Doncaster should realise that there are wiser people the honourable member for Morwell but than he in the workings of the Parliament, as understands it. I also advise the Committee that the indicated by his impromptu remarks. Chairman of the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee has told me that the committee has Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - What I find considered the matter. extremely odd about the comments just made by the honourable member for Morwell is that his views on The Minister in another place has authorised me to what he is trying to achieve are inconsistent. If the say that he will consider the matter while the Bill is member is confused about what he is trying to do, between Houses. The government clearly the amendment may not reflect his intention. The understands the point made by the honourable amendment stands as a condemnation of the member, although it does not share his concern. honourable member, and it is no defence to say that Nevertheless the Minister will consider the matter someone else got it wrong and it is not his fault. while the Bill is between Houses. Amendment negatived. Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - I congratulate the Minister on his understanding of the concerns of the Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I honourable member for Morwell, but I am surprised move: at the terms of the amendment moved by the 3. Clause 10, page 9, line 3, after "(3)" insert "and must honourable member. Instead of suggesting a better publish any guidelines that are issued in the drafted amendment that would recognise the role of Government Gazette". Parliament in these sorts of decisions, he has chosen to take a destructive attitude - that is, to eliminate TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1681

4. Clause 10, page 9, line 17 omit "a reasonable fee for" Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to. and insert "any fee prescribed for investigating". Oause15 The amendments are similar to amendments Nos 2 and 3, so they do not require further comment. The Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I amendments have been recommended by the move: Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee. 9. Clause IS, page 14, line 6, omit ''been consulted Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to. about" and insert "consented to". Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to; Clause 11 clauses 16 to 19 agreed to. Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education) - I Oause20 move: 5. Clause 11, page 11, line IS, after "(4)" insert "and Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - Clause 20 refers to must publish any guidelines that are issued in the the continuation of the Ballarat University College, Government Gazette". which is currently an enigma in that it is the one college of advanced education that was not 6. Clause 11, page 11, line 33, omit "a reasonable fee for" swallowed up in the recent amalgamations. It will and insert "any fee prescribed for investigating". be a challenge to the Minister and his advisory The amendments are necessary for the reasons I council to work through what will be an important have already outlined. decision. I have spoken to members of the student union, the administration and the academic staff of Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - The opposition the college, and they are all agreed on the desire for supports the intent of the amendments. However, the college to become an academic university. the Bill does not seem to include a requirement for reporting and accountability. Although I am pleased The concern I have is coloured somewhat by the that amendment No. 5 requires that any guidelines history of the creation of universities. I am mature must be published in the Government Gazette, the enough to remember the creation of Monash legislation would be improved if the Minister were University and its interesting early days when it was required to report to Parliament on the activities seen by the community - not by academics - as covered by the Bill. second rate compared with the University of Melbourne, which has turned out so many Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to; wonderful students in its day. Monash University clause 12 agreed to. suffered until La Trobe University was established, and La Trobe then suffered in the same way until Clause 13 the establishment of Deakin UniverSity. The new kid on the block syndrome has been in force with the Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I pecking order of universities. move: Through amalgamations universities have grown to 7. Clause 13, line to, omit "Division" and insert "Part". massive proportions, but Ballarat University College The amendment corrects an obvious error. is different. It appears that universities have accepted the adage that big is beautiful. I do not Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to. subscribe to that. The decision to grant Ballarat University college university status will be the Clause 14 fulfilment of a promise to the people of Ballarat made by a former Premier of Victoria, Sir Henry Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I Bolte. The Bill creates an opportunity to fulfil that move: promise to the fair city of Ballarat. The question of the Bendigo College of Advanced Education then 8. Clause 14, line 33, omit "been consulted about" and being used as a bargaining tool must be considered; insert "consented to". it may not be the happiest marriage and it may open Once again, this amendment corrects a simple error. a can of worms. All honourable members will watch The wrong phrase was used. closely the Minister's consideration of the . application for university status. I hope the TERTIARY EDUCATION BILL

1682 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 considerations will be made public so that the House divided on motion: people who are interested in the decision will be able to contribute to the arguments. They should at Ayes, 5.,. least be allowed to be close observers of the Ashley,Mr Maclellan, Mr long-term future of Ballarat University College. Bildstien, Mr McNamara,Mr Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I Clark,Mr Napthine, Or thank the honourable member for Morwell for his Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr comments, and I confirm that the Bill provides for Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr the continuation of Ballarat University College in the Davis,Mr Perton,Mr same manner as it currently operates under the Dean,Mr Pescott, Mr Post-Secondary Education Act. Doyle,Mr Peulich,Mrs Elder,Mr Phillips,Mr Oause agreed to; clause 21 agreed to. Elliott,Mrs Plowman, Mr A.F. Finn,Mr Reynolds, Mr Clause 22 Gude,Mr Richardson, Mr Hayward,Mr Rowe,Mr Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I Heffernan, Mr Ryan,Mr move: Henderson, Mrs Smith, Mr E.R. Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr I.W. 10. Clause 22, line 16, before "The" insert "(1)". Jasper, Mr Steggall' Mr 11. Clause 22, line 17, omit "any" and insert Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr "prescribing fees and generally prescribing any John,Mr Tanner,Mr other". Kennett,Mr Tehan,Mrs Kilgour,Mr Thompson, Mr 12. Clause 22, line 19, after this line insert the following Leigh,Mr Traynor,Mr sub-clause - Lupton,Mr Treasure, Mr "(2) A power conferred by sub-section (1) to make McArthur, Mr Turner,Mr regulations providing for fees may be McGill, Mrs (Ttllc') Wade,Mrs exercised by prescribing different fees for McGrath, Mr J.F. Weideman, Mr different classes of applications or McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells, Mr investigations.". McLellan,Mr

Clause 22 provides a general power to make Noes, 22 regulations for matters dealt with under the Bill but Andrianopoulos, Mr Marple,Ms does not provide a specific power to establish fees to Baker, Mr Micallef,Mr cover the costs and investigations. The amendments Batchelor, Mr Mildenhall, Mr provide the necessary power. Because the cost of Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr (Ttller) investigating applications could vary significantly Dollis,Mr Sandon,Mr with the nature of the matter being considered and Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr the circumstances of the application, the clause Haermeyer, Mr Sercombe, Mr makes provision for different classes of applications Hamilton,Mr Sheehan,Mr or investigations. Kirner,Ms Thomson,Mr Thwaites, Mr Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to; Leighton, Mr Loney, Mr (Ttller) Vaughan,Or clauses 23 to 34 agreed to; schedules agreed to. "Division list subsequently amended (Mr Hyams (Teller) Reported to House with amendments. inserted). Report adopted. Motion agreed to. Third reading Read third time. Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I move:

That this Bill be now read a third time. CLUB KENO BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1683

CLUB KENO BILL I commend the Bill to the House.

Second reading Debate adjourned on motion of Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray). Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I move: Debate adjourned until Thursday, 13 May. That this Bill be now read a second time. TATTERSALL CONSULTATIONS In my Restoring Victoria's Finances statement (REPORTING) BILL presented to Parliament on 6 April I announced the intention for club keno to be introduced from 1 July Second reading 1993. Mr STOCK DALE (Treasurer) - I move: The Bill provides the necessary legislative framework for club keno, including provisions for That this Bill be now read a second time. the authorisation of participants, the engagement of a registered company auditor to carry out such The purpose of the Bill is to require Tattersall Sweep audits as are necessary and for the Auditor-General Consultation to table its annual financial statements to have power to audit the required financial in Parliament and exempt a certain class of business statements, levies and payments, and from the 10 cent ticket levy. regulation-making powers. The initiative for the tabling requirement originated Club keno is similar to the existing keno game but with the Auditor-General, following an audit that he with draws to take place at frequent intervals and conducted of Tattersall's operations in May 1991. results immediately available at outlets on video The Auditor-General considered that the tabling of monitors. Club keno outlets will be restricted to Tattersall's annual financial statements in venues that are licensed for the operation of gaming Parliament was desirable in light of the Significant machines under the Gaming Machine Control Act. contribution that Tattersall makes to government Both the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersalls revenues, which totalled $300.2 million in net terms will be able to offer club keno. in 1991-92, and because of the much expanded role that Tattersall will have in the future through the The return to players will be 75 per cent of operation of electronic gaming machines. investments, which matches the returns in New South Wales and South Australia where club keno is Ms Kirner interjected. already in place. Mr STOCK DALE - I don't know whether she Under the legislation, Tattersalls and the TAB will says yes or no; she never gets asked! be authorised to operate the club keno system. The terms and conditions of the commercial Ms MARPLE (Altona) - On a point of order, arrangements between participants will require the Mr Speaker, many members in the Chamber are approval of the Minister. trivialising a serious subject. I ask the Treasurer to withdraw his remark about yes and no. The government will receive duty of between 20 and 21 per cent of club keno investments according to The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable turnover and will share in the profits made by the member for Altona would assist the Chair if she participants on the same basis as currently applies in were more specific in her request. respect of Tattersall consultations. Ms Kirner - Try the judge's comments! The net gain to gambling revenue from the introduction of club keno is estimated to be Ms MARPLE - The Treasurer should withdraw $4 million in 1993-94. his remark about the judge's statements on whether women say yes or no. This initiative is consistent with developments in other States and is complementary to the operation The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable and development of gaming machine venues in member for Altona finds the Treasurer's remark Victoria. offensive. I ask him to withdraw. POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1684 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I certainly Debate adjourned until Thursday, 13 May. withdraw it, Mr Speaker. POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) The Auditor-General was of the view that the BILL tabling requirement was necessary in the interes~ of greater public accountability and to allow for full Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and public scrutiny of Tattersall's financial statements. Employment) - I declare this Bill to be an urgent The government fully concurs with the views of the Bill, and I move: Auditor-General in this matter. That this Bill be considered an urgent Bill. This is in no sense a reflection on the manner in which Tattersall's has conducted its operations to Required number of members rose indicating date; it simply ensures a degree of accountability approval of motion being put. and public scrutiny commensurate with the public interest in Tattersall's operations. House divided on motion:

Honourable members will be aware that a 10 cent Ayes, 57 ticket levy has applied to certain Tattersall games Ashley, Mr Maclellan, Mr since 1 December 1992. It was the government's Bildstien, Mr McNamara, Mr intention that the levy would only apply to tickets Brown,Mr Maughan, Mr sold in Victoria. Unfortunately, an accredited Clark, Mr Napthine, Dr representative of Tattersall's, a Mr John Hycenko, Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr the principal of a business called 'The Mail Service", Cooper, Mr Perrin, Mr has inadvertently become subject to the levy Davis, Mr Perton, Mr notwithstanding the fact that his customers are Dean,Mr Pescott, Mr resident outside Victoria. Doyle,Mr Peulich, Mrs Elder, Mr PhiIIips, Mr The anomaly arises from the unique nature of Elliott, Mrs Plowman, Mr A.F. Mr Hycenko's business. Mr Hycenko is based in Finn, Mr Reynolds, Mr Melbourne, but has exclusive rights to sell Tattersall Gude,Mr Richardson, Mr products on Christmas Island, Norfolk Island and Hayward, Mr Rowe, Mr the Cook Islands. Mr Hycenko's overseas business Heffeman, Mr Ryan, Mr (Teller) operates as follows: players on the islands place Henderson, Mrs Smith, Mr E.R. orders through local sub-agents; moneys collected Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr I.W. from players are transferred electronically from the Hyams,Mr Steggall, Mr islands to Mr Hycenko's bank account in Melbourne; Jasper, Mr Stockdale, Mr the tickets are issued to Mr Hycenko for and on John, Mr Tanner, Mr behalf of the players on the islands; and where there Kennett, Mr Tehan, Mrs is a winner, Mr Hycenko collects the prize and Kilgour, Mr Thompson, Mr remits it to the player. Leigh, Mr Traynor, Mr Lupton, Mr (Teller) Treasure, Mr At present the tickets are subject to the levy because McArthur, Mr Tumer,Mr they are issued in Victoria notwithstanding the fact McGiII, Mrs Wade,Mrs that the ultimate customer lives outside Victoria. McGrath, Mr J.F. Weideman, Mr The purpose of the amendment is to remove this McGrath, Mr W.O. Wells, Mr anomaly. McLellan,Mr Noes, 22 It should be noted that under separate accreditation, Andrianopoulos, Mr (Teller) Marple, Ms(Teller) Mr Hycenko is also permitted to sell tickets in Baker, Mr Micallef, Mr Victoria. Of course, his Victorian sales will continue Batchelor, Mr Mildenhall, Mr to be subject to the levy. Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr OolIis,Mr Sandon, Mr I commend the Bill to the House. Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr Haermeyer, Mr Sercombe, Mr Debate adjourned on motion of Mr BAKER Hamilton,Mr Sheehan, Mr (Sunshine). Kimer,Ms Thomson,Mr POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1685

Lei ghton, Mr Thwaites, Mr timetable. The Bill has been listed on the Notice Loney, Mr Vaughan, Or Paper for debate to be resumed today. Everyone has had ample notice, including the Parliamentary M otion agreed to. committee and other interested bodies. The government has a timetable that has been clearly set Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and out by the Leader of the House and it intends to Employment) - I move: proceed according to that timetable.

That the time allotted for the remaining stages of the House divided on omission (Members in favour Bill be until 1 a.m. tomorrow. vote No):

Mr SERCOMBE (Niddrie) - I move: Ayes, 58 Ashley,Mr McLellan,Mr That all the words and expressions after the word Bildstien, Mr Maclellan, Mr "That" be omitted with the view of inserting in place Brown,Mr McNamara, Mr thereof the following words and expressions - Clark, Mr Maughan,Mr Coleman,Mr Napthine, Dr the time allotted in connection with the Bill be as Cooper, Mr Paterson, Mr follows- Davis, Mr Perrin, Mr Dean,Mr Perton, Mr (a) for the second-reading stage of the Bill from 4 p.m. Doyle,Mr Pescott, Mr until 6 p.m. on Tuesday 11 May; and Elder,Mr Peulich,Mrs (b) for the remaining stages of the Bill until 12 midnight Elliott, Mrs Phillips, Mr Tuesday 11 May. Finn,Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. Honourable members interjecting. Gude,Mr Reynolds, Mr Hayward,Mr Richardson, Mr Heffeman, Mr Rowe, Mr (Teller) The SPEAKER - Order! This unseemly Henderson, Mrs Ryan, Mr behaviour will not be tolerated by the Chair. Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. Hyams,Mr Smith, Mr I.W. Mr SERCOMBE - On Monday the Scrutiny of Steggall, Mr Acts and Regulations Committee has scheduled a Jasper, Mr Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr meeting to consider the Bill, which has caused John, Mr Tanner, Mr considerable controversy in the Police Force. It has Kennett, Mr Tehan, Mrs also arranged to take evidence from the Chief Kilgour, Mr Thompson, Mr Commissioner of Police and the Victoria Police Leigh, Mr Traynor, Mr (Teller) Association. Lupton, Mr Treasure, Mr McArthur, Mr Tumer,Mr It would be discourteous of the government not to McGiII,Mrs Wade,Mrs allow the committee, which has a majority of McGrath, Mr J.F. Weideman, Mr government members, sufficient time to consider the McGrath, Mr W.O. Wells,Mr Bill and to carry out the functions that Parliament has given it to enable it to report to the Parliament. Noes, 22 Andrianopoulos, Mr (Teller) Marple, Ms (Teller) You will readily observe, Mr Speaker, that my Baker, Mr Micallef, Mr amendment proposes that the second reading of the Batchelor, Mr Mildenhall, Mr Bill be debated on Tuesday next. The opposition is Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr not seeking to delay the consideration of the Bill Dollis,Mr Sandon, Mr unduly. The government should take the committee Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr system seriously and allow the committee to hear Haermeyer, Mr Sercombe, Mr the witnesses who will appear before it. Hamilton,Mr Sheehan, Mr Kimer,Ms Thomson, Mr Mr MeN AMARA (Minister for Police and Leighton, Mr Thwaites, Mr EmergeI1CY Services) - Debate on the Bill has been Loney, Mr Vaughan, Or now adjourned for two weeks, and all honourable members and the public generally knew the POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1686 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Amendment negatived. succinctly indicate the views of the police and the opposition regarding the legislation. The first Motion agreed to. resolution is:

Second reading (i) That the Police Association, in supporting the concept that the chief commissioner should be able to effectively command the Victoria Police Force, Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of holds firm to the view that there must be a binding Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Police and appeal right to a totally independent body. Emergency Services) (il) That the association take immediate steps to ensure The SPEAKER - Order! I am of the opinion that our members are not treated as second-class the second reading of this Bill requires to be passed citizens by being denied proper processes of by an absolute majority. natural justice; (ill) That the association is instructed to pursue the Mr SERCOMBE (Niddrie) - This is the second proper processes of natural justice and a binding set of amendments to the Police Regulation Act that appeal right to an independent body for its the government has brought forward in less than six members, having the functions of that months. Like the earlier amendments, these independent body enshrined in legislation. amendments are strongly opposed by most officers of the Victoria Police. The second resolution is:

Mr Rowe - Not true. That the meeting instructs the association to directly approach the Federal industrial relations Minister to Mr SERCOMBE - What does the honourable intervene and ensure that the Police Regulation member for Cranbourne think 3000 police officers (Discipline) Bill 1993 conforms with the Australian were doing the other day? The vast majority of government's commitment on 26 February 1993 to Victorian police officers strenuously oppose this ensure that all employees terminated have access to an legislation. Their vigorous objection to these independent and binding appeal body pursuant to amendments was expressed at a recent meeting of International Labour Organisation Convention 158. nearly 3000 officers, which is an indication of how out of touch the government is with the people Article 8, Division C of the United Nations involved in policing this State. Convention provides:

The previous amendments were aimed primarily at 1. A worker who considers that his employment has been unjustifiably terminated shall be entitled to the establishment of the Police Board. Apparently appeal against that termination to an impartial no-one, least of all its members, really understands body, such as a court, labour tribunal, arbitration what that Police Board is doing six months after its commission or arbitrator. creation. The opposition wants police to have the legislative background to enable it to operate a The legislation conflicts with the commitment of the modern, efficient community Police Force and to Australian government to having those powers consult with the force and react to its concerns. extend to all members of the Australian community.

On 27 April the Police Association of Victoria held a The third resolution is: meeting at which the Minister for Finance made an appearance to speak about superannuation. He The membership of the Police Association demands apparently was as evasive on that question at that that the government remove the proposed new section meeting as he is in this place. Judging by the 129A, Supreme Court - Limitation of Jurisdictions television footage of the event, he bored the meeting from the Police Regulation (Discipline) Bill as it denies senseless as large numbers of police officers were our members the basic rights available to other shown leaving during his address. Victorian police Victorians. attach great importance to their superannuation, and that meeting showed that their principal concerns The fourth resolution is: relate to this legislation. That the granting of absolute discipline powers to the I shall read the resolutions carried at that meeting of chief commissioner is a gross threat to the integrity of members of the Victoria Police, because they every member of the Victoria Police Force. This POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1687

meeting urges the chief commissioner and the current provisiOns of the Act, he can refer any matter government to delay the implementation of new relating to police to the Police Board, presently disciplinary measures until there has been an chaired by Sir John Young. The Minister states: independent judicial inquiry into the needs for, and effects of, any increase in the chief commissioner's That could include, for example, the effectiveness of the powers. police disciplinary system.

Those resolutions make abundantly clear why the Earlier drafts of government amendments, which government ought to defer the legislation. At the presumably went before the coalition Bill committee, very least, it should defer passage of the Bill to proposed a review of the decisions of the chief enable the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations commissioner being undertaken by the Police Board. Committee to examine it. It would also show Those earlier drafts have since disappeared. I courtesy to the Chief Commissioner of Police and suppose it reflects the fact that Sir John Young and members of the Police Association of Victoria, who his board may not know what their functions are, will meet on Monday next with the Parliamentary but at least they are wise enough not to go down the committee. The Minister should adjourn the Bill at rabbit warren proposed by the Minister, who was the end of the second- reading stage. silly to propose the amendments in the first place. Unfortunately, the Minister has said that he will not The Bill repeals sections 69 to 86 of the Police delay the introduction of the government's Regulation Act, which refer to the Police Service amendments to allow them to be scrutinised further. Board, and substitutes new sections 87 to 91 relating It is an indication of the government's lack of clarity. to the Police Discipline Board. A new system of police discipline is proposed, but the fundamental The deeply held fears of policemen and flaw in the proposal, as indicated by the resolutions policewomen regarding police powers do not relate of the Police Association, is that police officers will just to some abstract notion of due process and have no right of appeal on diSCiplinary matters, natural justice. They are fundamental principles of including appeals against dismissal. our legal system and are extremely important for police morale and attitude. The community rightly The Bill establishes a Police Review Commission expects police officers, in executing their duties with that will undertake to review decisions of the chief the public, to carry out those duties with due commissioner in relation to disciplinary matters. The process. The public are entitled to expect police key verb is "review", because the chief officers to be held to account according to due commissioner is not bound by the findings of the process. It is unreasonable, unfair and against commission. This compares with the proposed community expectations that police officers should powers of the commission to hear and determine not be entitled to due process in relation to claims appeals concerning promotions and transfers. made against them.

As the Police Association has said in correspondence Fonner police officers, such as the honourable to the Minister, despite comments to the contrary, in members for Bendigo West and Ballarat East, well the case of a conviction or sentence on a disciplinary know that in criminal investigations their actions matter the Victoria Police will be the only Police can be subject to misinterpretation, especially given Force in Australia without a right of appeal to an by the types of people with whom they are dealing. independent body whose decision is binding. The It is common for malicious evidence to be led Australian Federal Police, the New South Wales against police officers; and unless they have a right police, the South Australian police, the Western of judicial review of their actions, serious injustices Australian police and the Northern Territory police maybe done. all have this right. The Queensland Police Force has a more complex system with different categories for This is not an abstract notion. I shall refer briefly to misconduct and official misconduct, that is, for less cases that have come before the Police Service Board serious and more serious offences. Some furphies over the past few years where the careers of have been put about that these provisions would policemen and policewomen would have been bring the Victoria Police into line with police shattered if the diSCiplinary provisions proposed in practice elsewhere. That is not correct. the Bill had been in force when those cases were dealt with. The Minister for Police and Emergency Services noted in his second-reading speech that, under the POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1688 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

In 1988 the Police Service Board, under the too much detail, the policeman and policewoman chairmanship of Judge Shillito, heard an appeal were charged before the Police Discipline Board that from Senior Constable Ramsay and Senior Constable at Glen Waverley in March 1987, contrary to Richardson. Although I shall not go through the regulation No. 402(a), they acted in a manner likely details of the case, suffice it to say that Senior to bring discredit on the reputation of the force, in Constable Ramsay of St Kilda appeared before the that without good or proper cause each was a party Police Discipline Board charged that in 1987, to the consumption of a substance known as contrary to regulations, he did without good and cannabis. Apparently the suggestion was that sufficient cause arrest a person for an offence of cannabis was being smoked at the Police Academy. being drunk, that contrary to regulations he used unnecessary violence on a prisoner and that contrary At the conclusion of the evidence the Police to regulations he acted in a manner likely to bring Discipline Board found those charges proven. Those discredit on the reputation of the force. two police officers were under a cloud. Nonetheless, after the application of those principles that I Senior Constable Ramsay pleaded not guilty but was referred to earlier the two police officers were dismissed from the force in 1987. His colleague was exonerated on the basis that the evidence was not summarily found guilty on two of the charges and sufficient. The proof required was a lesser burden of fined $1000. In giving his reasons for the appeal proof than is required in a criminal case. Judge decision the judge said: Shillito said:

The onus of establishing the guilt of the member is on Let there be no mistake if a member of the Victoria the respondent but the standard of proof required is Police Force is found to have illegally used a prohibited not that which applies in criminal proceedings. It is drug - particularly on police premises of the type in sufficient if the respondent satisfies the board that the question - then the board regards misconduct of this offence has been committed on the standard of proof sort as being extremely serious indeed; not only which is required in proceedings before administrative because it is a criminal offence in itself but because the tribunals generally. consequences of its discovery would have an extremely damaging effect on the reputation of the force as a In other words, in these appeals this board, when whole and lower it in the estimation of the community considering whether it has been satisfied that any generally. appellant was guilty of committing a particular disciplinary offence, should adopt the approach that The board regards it as extremely doubtful as to the degree of satisfaction which it needs to feel before whether such an offender ought ordinarily be allowed recording a conviction is proportional to its recognition to continue to remain a member of the force. of the gravity of the misconduct alleged and/or the gravity of the consequences which may be reasonably Had they applied in that situation, the provisions expected to flow from a conviction for it. the Minister is now trying to foist on the force would have destroyed the careers of young officers without In this respect there is little doubt that the misconduct their having the right of judicial appeal. As I said alleged against the appellants in connection with the before, we are talking not about abstract principles first two charges at least is both grave and serious; so of due process and natural justice but about the real much so that it is extremely doubtful whether either lives and careers of people in the Victoria Police. could be regarded as suitable to be retained as a Those officers would not still be in the force if the member of the Victoria Police Force if found guilty principles the Minister is trying to introduce had either as a principal or as an accessory. been in effect.

The wash-up was that the Police Service Board The cases keep rolling in. In July 1990 the Police found that the charges were not sustained and Service Board, under the chairmanship of Judge upheld the appeal. Those police officers had their Walsh, heard an appeal from a Sergeant Tanner who careers shattered; and they would have remained was attached to the Benalla CIB -no doubt the shattered if the Bill had applied at the time. Minister, being an active local member, would know Sergeant Tanner. If the provisions of the Bill had That is not an isolated case. In 1988 the Police applied in 1990, Sergeant Tanner would not now be Service Board, under the chairmanship of Judge a member of the Police Force. Sergeant Tanner Shillito, heard a case involving Senior Constable appealed against a compulsory transfer to the Force Robinson and Constable Farrant. Without going into Reserve: POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1689

The transfer of the appellant from the cm at Benalla to person is entitled to protection even if that the Force Reserve was published in the Police Gazette ... protection may at times make life easier for persons as a transfer by direction. who are guilty. Given our system of justice, it seems unreasonable to say that because from time to time It is not relevant to the points I am making to go some police officers may not do the right thing and through the allegations made against Sergeant ought not to be in the force the protection now Tanner, except to say that they related to criminal available to police officers should be thrown out. investigations and that he was compulsorily transferred to the Force Reserve for disciplinary The opposition does not present that argument as an reasons. The board gave lengthy reasons for the abstract principle but in the context that a lack of decision - some 57 pages - and stated in protection will lead to the destruction of the careers conclusion: of officers. A number of police officers to whom I have referred in this debate would not now be in the ... the board is affirmatively satisfied that the evidence Police Force if past governments had proceeded available to the chief commissioner, when properly along the path the current government is suggesting. analysed, did not afford reasonable grounds in this case for the transfer of the appellant to the Force There are a number of specific proviSions in the Bill Reserve. that cause the opposition concern as matters of principle. Proposed new sections 75 and 84 exclude The board is accordingly satisfied that the chief barristers and solicitors from representing police commissioner was misinformed as to the facts upon officers who are charged with breaches of discipline. which his decision was based and was not informed of Proposed new sections 76(2) and 77(2) provide the facts and circumstances which bore particularly on the potential for police officers to face punitive awards exercise of his discretion. The board has accordingly against them of compensation or costs. As the Police reached the unanimous conclusion that the discretion Association of Victoria points out, under those of the chief commissioner has miscarried in this case proposed new sections, Significant amounts in costs and must be set aside. or compensation could be awarded against police officers in relation to motor vehicle accidents. There Those comments are powerful expressions of is grave potential for an injustice to be done in those judicial views. They are not abstract expressions but circumstances. strong criticisms of the process and the way in which policemen and policewomen have been There is certainly a capacity for a grave injustice to treated. They clearly underline the injustices that be done to police officers facing charges that could would be done if that type of judicial review process lead to dismissal in not having an opportunity of were not available. being legally represented in proceedings where provisions of the Evidence Act may apply, Last week a report of the Deputy Ombudsman particularly the provisions dealing with the taking of (Police Complaints) was tabled in Parliament. It evidence on oath and the production of documents. concerns the alleged suppression of police In respect of those sorts of rights, which the police investigations, police intelligence and other matters now have, it would be appropriate for the proposed relating to investigations into the Victorian legislation to be reviewed by the Scrutiny of Acts Economic Development Corporation. The Deputy and Regulations Committee of this Parliament. Ombudsman is critical in that report of the way the Police Force conducts investigations, particularly in I was a moment ago beginning to develop the theme matters involving sensitive intelligence of the way in which inquiries and hearings under considerations. The Deputy Ombudsman's report the Bill will work. The Bill quite specifically states in shows that it is unsatisfactory for the government to proposed new section 75(3)c) that such inquiries and proceed to give the police command an unfettered hearings are not bound by the rules of evidence but right in discipline and, in particular, an unfettered that an inquiry may inform itself in any way it sees right to dismiss. fit, yet proposed new section 75(4) provides that sections 14, 15, 16 and 21A of the Evidence Act do There undoubtedly could be circumstances where, apply. as a matter of general principie and without reference to any specific case, a police officer could The rules of natural justice provide that persons exploit the current system. However, it is should be given an adequate opportunity of fundamental in our legal system that an innocent presenting a case to an unbiased authority. The Bill POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1690 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 creates potential problems in relation to the basic Clause 5 is of concern to the opposition. It proposes textbook definitions of natural justice. The Bill does to amend section 4(2) of the principal Act by not indicate any standard of proof that is required in substituting for the words ''Police Service Board" the disciplinary matters, including dismissal. As I word ''Minister'' in a context where the provision in indicated, the inability of the police to be legally the principal Act provides that no person shall be represented is of particular concern. appointed deputy commissioner or assistant commissioner unless he is a member of the force or The opposition is also concerned about the disparity unless the Police Service Board reports that there is between the time provided in the Bill for the no member of the force who is fit to be appointed to charging process and the time police officers may that office. have to respond when an issue requires detailed examination. Because of the limited time available, I That provision seems to create further opportunities do not wish to explore this issue too deeply. for political patronage in the Police Force, following However, under proposed new section 71(4) action as it does the last set of amendments to the taken, for example by the chief commissioner in legislation before Christmas which basically put all suspending an officer after an officer has been commissioned rank officers on contracts of up to five charged, remains in force until the charge has been years, making their appointments of limited tenure. finally determined. In the absence of protection an The provision is a further fundamentally unreasonable period could elapse. On the other undesirable step towards involving a Minister - the hand, under proposed new section 72(1)(e) the current Minister will not be Minister for long - in charge must specify the time within which a the Police Force. member must make a statement when charged. Members of the force need to be protected in this The great strength of the Victoria Police Force - the respect so that they have reasonable time in which to reason it is regarded with considerable respect obtain advice about the matters on which they have throughout the Victorian community and is more been charged. highly regarded than the police forces of a number of other Australian States that I could name-is A range of other procedural matters ought to be that over recent times it has been significantly free of clarified. For example, does a police officer have corruption and clearly has not been susceptible to rights with respect to possible self-incrimination political interference and patronage. We are when dealing with proposed diSCiplinary concerned that the amendment made by clause 5 procedures? It ought to be made clear that a member goes further in the direction of political interference who has been interviewed in relation to criminal and is a most negative step. matters should not be the subject of a diSCiplinary interview if the substance of that interview relates to In summary, the opposition sees the Police the same circumstances. In that circumstance, the Regulation (Discipline) Bill as bad legislation. It right should be enshrined in legislation - I cannot ought not to be proceeded with any further at this find any appropriate provision in this Bill-for the point. The Minister ought to take note of the member to have the criminal charges dealt with extraordinarily strong - almost unprecedented - before the disciplinary matters are dealt with. expressions of opposition that have arisen across the ranks of the Victoria Police Force on this matter. The The Minister has had delivered to him by the Police Minister ought to find an opportunity this evening Association of Victorian an extensive letter detailing not to proceed with the Bill and to refer it to a a range of extremely important matters with respect Parliamentary committee for scrutiny. to the legislation. In view of the limited time available, I do not propose to go through all those Opposition members would be most pleased to matters in detail. They are matters of fundamental cooperate with the government in looking at ways in importance in the context of natural justice being which the police disciplinary system can be extended to police officers. If the Minister persists overhauled and improved. They are not saying for with legislation that denies appeal rights to police one moment that there is not room for improvement officers, those matters will need to be more within the police disciplinary system; they are not thoroughly and systematically examined to ensure saying that on occasions the process is not unduly that fundamental liberties are preserved for police cumbersome; but they are saying that there are officers facing serious diSCiplinary procedures. fundamental principles at stake which will affect the careers and the integrity of policemen and women. The government would be doing the community a POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1691 significant service by placing the Bill on hold and to the police very soon. The measures only put the enabling further consideration of the matters chief commissioner in the same position as any other involved. chief executive.

Mr E. R. SMITH (Glen Waverley) - I am very The proposals in the Bill are supported by the pleased that at long last the Police Regulation Neesham inquiry into the Police Force, which is (Discipline) Bill is before the Parliament, and within fairly Significant as it is one of the most important six months of the election of the Kennett inquiries to be held in recent years. As far as possible government; it is part of the government's plank for the government will look to the recommendations of better law and order within Victoria. the inquiry as a guide as it progresses through its first, second and third terms of government. First I thank the coalition's police services committee for the incredible amount of work that has gone into The Bill establishes a review process through the the Bill and for advising the Minister for Police and Police Review Commission to conduct reviews or Emergency Services on the right balance to be appeals against actions of the chief commissioner. In achieved in the Bill. I hope some members of the other words, it is proposed that the commission will committee will be able to contribute to the debate have the same role as the Ombudsman. Drawing all tonight. I am pleased with the way the debate has powers into the one commission will streamline been organised, and I thank the honourable member hearings and reduce costs. The commission will hear for Niddrie for his cooperation. the aggrieved party and may recommend to the chief commissioner certain actions that could reduce The proposal embodied in the Bill was initiated by the penalty, or may suggest that the penalty be put police command - not just by the present Chief aside. The chief commissioner must, within 14 days, Commissioner of Police, Mr Comrie, but also by his either vary or confirm the recommendations and predecessors Mr Glare and Mr Miller. The report his findings to the Minister, the Police Review legislation gives the chief commissioner - the chief Commission and the member concerned. executive, if you like - the right to run his force as he wants to, as would any executive of a company The government has almost reached full agreement with 12 000 employees. with the Police Association of Victoria, but we still do not have its 100 per cent support. We would like The measure introduced by the Bill is necessary, to have this but there is continuing pressure from particularly in view of the other powers to be the association on the matter of review boards. In introduced by the Parliament; I foreshadow that the main the government is supported in this aim, they will include the right to take names and which six months ago would have seemed an addresses and fingerprints and carry out DNA impossible situation to arrive at. No doubt this sampling. The Police Regulation (Discipline) Bill is a change has been assisted by editorials of 6 April in means of balancing those extra powers given to the both the Herald Sun and the Age. The editorial in the police. Herald Sun suggests that it is reasonable that the chief commissioner be given the rights contained in The government believes it is very important that the Bill. It states: the chief commissioner have the right to discipline effectively, even in some cases to the extent of This seems reasonable. It would enable the force to dismissal, with a fair review process built into the dump an unsuitable officer promptly while protecting system. Already the chief commissioner has such the individual officer's rights. powers over Public Service employees, protective services officers, reservists and trainees under his To get that sort of support from the Herald Sun is command. The legislation is only a logical extremely important. I:or the Age to say completely progression, giving the chief commissioner the same independently on the same day that the measures powers but in regard to an extended group. contained were "neither draconian nor unreasonable" is the kind of community support the While the chief commissioner still holds government is looking for. The last paragraph states: responsibility for the performance of and standards held by officers, he has only limited disciplinary In the meantime, the association should withdraw its powers, so largely the disciplinary system is outside threat of industrial action. his control. The measures in the Bill will substantially balance those new powers to be given POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1692 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993

That is an endorsement of the government's law and I shall cite two examples of how ineffective the order policy, and one which the opposition should boards are. In a recent case a young constable blew take seriously because having both those influential the whistle on two sergeants he knew had taken part newspapers on side is a great measure of support for in a raid and later decided that they would share the the Bill. The Bill gives the Chief Commissioner of profits of the raid between themselves. The Police the right to fire, reprimand, issue good constable knew of a tape from an answering service behaviour bonds, impose fines, reduce the rank or that captured the conversation between the seniority of an officer and transfer an officer. They sergeants, so he blew the whistle. The Internal are all rights the community would expect any Investigations Department took the constable's normal chief executive to have. statement and the answering service tape, and the officers were duly charged. When the case was taken The Bill replaces the Police Discipline Board and the to court, due to clever lawyers, such as the Leader of Police Service Board. I sought from the Victoria the Opposition, the self-appointed QC -- Police Force a few statistics that I thought would be appropriate for the House to consider. During the Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - On a past two years the Police Discipline Board has not point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I find that dismissed a single member from the force for a remark offensive and ask that it be withdrawn. diSCiplinary offence. During the same two-year period the Police Service Board has dismissed two The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of members who were sentenced to terms of the Opposition finds a particular remark offensive imprisonment by the Magistrates Court. It is and I ask the honourable member for Glen Waverley unreasonable that the Chief Commissioner of Police to withdraw it. I also remind him that those sorts of cannot do that and save all the time that is spent remarks provoke interjections across the Chamber, dealing with such issues. which may not be in the best interests of harmony in the House. Mr Kennan - What about the grand jury? Mr E. R. SMITH (Glen Waverley) - I withdraw. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of The clever lawyers were able to argue in court that the Opposition is out of order. the tape was inadmissible. The judge then had no option but to dismiss the case. The Police Discipline Mr E. R. SMITH - The chief commissioner has Board then considered the case. Because its legal no power to refuse a member's resignation other framework is the same as the courts, it also found than to insist on the maximum notice, which is three the tape to be inadmissible; it was knocked out of months. In other words, he cannot even stop a court and the board had no option but to knock it person resigning by giving that person a out also. As a result of the case against the dishonourable discharge. That is a basic right the policemen being thrown out of court and dismissed community would expect the chief commissioner to by the disciplinary board, the two officers were able have, but he is not permitted to exercise that right. to return to their duties. The young constable who blew the whistle had so much pressure put on him Some 42 members of the Victoria Police Force have as a result of the case that he was pushed out of the been committed for trial on indictable offences and force and is no longer a serving member. have been suspended without pay. Of those offences, 22 - 55 per cent - are pending. Of the The second example is a case of a corrupt policeman 19 cases that have been heard, 13 officers - 68 per who was using standover tactics against a criminal cent - were found guilty. Of those 13, and whose telephone conversations were recorded. 10 resigned - so before the board could take any The tape was taken to court and found to be action the officers solved the problems - one was inadmissible. The same process I outlined earlier dismissed, one retired on the ground of ill health ensued, and because of the legalistic set-up of the and one was successful on appeal. Those statistics Police Discipline Board, the officer was reinstated. show that the amount of work the two boards undertake and the influence they have on the force is They are horrifying cases which show that, even minimal to say the least. The measures in the Bill when he has the necessary evidence, the Chief replace boards that have to date not given the State Commissioner of Police does not have the right to the value for money it requires. do what any other chief executive of a large organisation would be able to do. It is only through the measures the government is introducing tonight POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1693 that the chief commissioner will be able to run the in the Treasury about superannuation. Perhaps the force effectively. government thought that would prevent criticism of what is an obnoxious Bill. If the Bill goes into The stringent powers the Bill gives the chief Committee I foreshadow that I will move commissioner will allow him to balance the use of 15 amendments to this obnoxious Bill in support of the new powers the police will be given to take the members of the Police Force. names and addresses, fingerprints, DNA samples and so on. The chief commissioner will have the I am not a person who usually defends the Police ability to deal with problems that result from the Force, although I have a keen interest in it. My father conduct of police when dealing with the public. was a policeman, and my father-in-law was a They may not involve criminal offences, but yowlg policeman for about 19 years until he was involved police officers may develop attitudes that the public in a car accident during a high speed car chase, after find unacceptable. which he was bought out of the force. He has since passed away. My mother-in-law is a member of the The Bill gives the chief commissioner power to police widows association. She regularly attends its remove an officer after he or she has been warned a functions, and aside from her attendance at the number of times about his or her behaviour not Catholic Church, it is her major social activity. It being in the best interest of the Police Force or if he causes her much embarrassment that I represent the or she breaches the normal code of conduct that is Melbourne electorate and that I occasionally make expected by the public. The chief commissioner will speeches about the Police Force, but we will not be able to weed out those individuals; and when the worry too much about that. She will be extremely first one or two are dismissed the word will get happy to hear that there is talk of adding to the around and those with similar attitudes will smarten police superannuation scheme entitlements and that, themselves up. There will be grave difficulties if the as a result, her entitlement will be affected. chief commissioner is not given that right. Under the Labor government an extremely good The honourable member for Niddrie referred to the superannuation scheme was introduced, which was calibre of the Police Service Board. We are pleased well overdue. I am digressing from the Bill, but with the way in which the board has operated since those are important issues that need to be raised it was established early this year. The board is when one gets an opportunity to score a political currently investigating promotion procedures. The point. However, my mother-in-law was a issue was referred to the board by the chief beneficiary of the superannuation scheme in place commissioner because it was raised with him a before the Labor government introduced the number of times when he and the Minister were amended scheme. She now gets about $25 a week! touring the country earlier this year. The honourable member for Niddrie was wrong when he suggested The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Is the that the Victoria Police Association put contrary honourable member for Melbourne making only a views about the role of the Police Service Board and passing reference? the amendments that were foreshadowed by the Minister. I cannot understand the logic in the Mr CO LE - I am, Mr Deputy Speaker. I should honourable member's argument. He was wrong and add that my brother was a service policeman in the I totally deny what he said. Air Force for more than 20 years; and my good friend, my cousin, is also a policeman. I considered The Chief Commissioner of Police has been most that I should establish my family credentials. It is a anxious to have this power. It will add to the bit like the Minister going to a St Patrick's Day standing not only of the chief commissioner but also celebration - he does his best to establish that he is of the Victoria Police Force. Irish and supports St Patrick, but actually he is a conservative and supports the Queen. I wish the Bill a speedy passage. Despite my history and my involvement with the Mr CO LE (Melbourne) -It is disappointing that Police Force, I have been known to be a little critical the Bill has been brought on for debate at this of the Police Force's excessive exercise of its powers ungodiy hour of the night. The government on tlle odd occasion - for example, the occasional obviously decided that it should be debated now assassination in Flemington, when a couple of boys because the Victoria Police Association is in were blown away; you wait for the Coroner's Canberra lobbying the Federal Minister and others inquiry! But on this occasion the Victoria Police POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

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Association has an extremely good case. The actions complained about the WorkCover issue. Police of the government and the chief commissioner are officers fear that the stress they experience in their premature, unnecessary, unfair and undesirable. jobs will not be recognised because its effects are too difficult to prove. We must consider the nature of the Police Force. It should be able to exercise its considerable power to The second issue to which I alluded earlier concerns carry out the provisions of Acts and regulations with situations like that of my mother-in-law - she is on a degree of independence. In the normal course of a widow's superannuation benefit. The former events members of the Police Force should not be Labor government, with the support of the brought to account by a superior officer for the way conservative parties - perhaps they were inveigled in which they charge suspected persons. into supporting it - introduced a particular superannuation scheme to cater for the nature of the We expect a lot from the Police Force. In the short job and to improve the morale of the Police Force. time the coalition government has been in office it My impression from anecdotal evidence from has carried out some incredible acts. If the Minister officers who have contacted me is that they are had any sense of propriety or timing he would wait worried about the superannuation issue. I shall not until another time to introduce the Bill. go into it in depth, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I could speak for half on hour on the subject. Mr Rowe - Why? Mr ROWE (Cranbourne) - On a point of order, Mr COLE - If you hang about, you'll find out, Mr Deputy Speaker, the House is debating the Police Mr Ex-policeman - perhaps if you were still a Regulation (Discipline) Bill, not a superannuation policeman you would not be supporting the Bill! Bill, an emergency services Bill or the honourable member's family tree or history. For the past A great deal of turmoil and catastrophe has occurred 10 minutes the honourable member has not made since the coalition government came to power one comment on the Bill. I ask you to direct him to because of its desire, rightly or wrongly, to make relate his remarks to the Bill. substantial changes. Those actions have caused even those who normally are reasonably conservative and Mr COLE (Melbourne) - On the point of order, supportive of the government -namely, members Mr Deputy Speaker, the honourable member for of the Police Force - to distance themselves from it. Cranbourne may not have been listening, but the point I am trying to make is that the Bill ought to be Recently two major changes have caused dismay delayed. At present the police have to deal with two and concern among members of the Police Force. other major issues, and this one should be The first is the government's amendments to the postponed until another time. I am attempting to WorkCare, now WorkCover, legislation. One cannot explain why the power the Bill gives to the Chief discount the impact the changing of WorkCover Commissioner of Police ought to be delayed until definitions has had on the Police Force. Employees another time. Superannuation and WorkCover are are now required to prove that their injuries were important issues. I accept that my family history is totally sustained at work. It will be more difficult for not necessarily relevant, but it gives substance to my police officers to prove that they have suffered stress claims. at work. Aside from the obvious physical dangers associated with being a police officer, such as being The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Although I do shot or involved in car accidents, as my not uphold the point of order at this time, I remind father-in-law was, stress is the biggest single factor the honourable member for Melbourne that the leading to police officers making WorkCover claims. House is debating the Police Regulation (Discipline) Changing the definitions of injuries in that way - in Bill. Although the honourable member has form if not in substance - has led to great turmoil in established some concerns about superannuation the Police Force. and WorkCover, he has spent sufficient time on them and should now return to the Bill. The Minister may believe I have been critical of the police tOnight, but over the past two months a Mr COLE - In spite of the comments of the number of police officers have telephoned me honourable member for Cranbourne, I did refer to expressing concern about the Bill and the the independence of the Police Force. If we have a hopelessness of the Minister they now have system where a police officer can be dismissed compared with the former Minister; they have also summarily - which despite what the chief POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1695 commissioner and the Minister say is what is Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Police and proposed in the Bill - it questions in a rudimentary Emergency Services) - On a point of order, fashion the very nature of the independence of Mr Deputy Speaker, I ask the honourable member police officers. for Melbourne to rephrase his comments because he has just made an outrageous statement about the I entered the debate not having heard what the Chief Commissioner of Police. There is no evidence shadow Minister for Police and Emergency Services that the appointment of the chief commissioner was said, so if I am repetitive I apologise. However, in any way political. I wouldn't know what his significant points must be made about the Bill. The politics are. first and foremost is that the Police Association and members of the Police Force oppose the Bill. They do Mr Cole - Why didn't you appoint John Frame? not want it, they do not believe it is necessary and, from the telephone calls I have received, many Mr McNAMARA - We appoint a person on officers are expressing sincere doubts about what is merit going on. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I have heard If honourable members were to have the enough. The Deputy Premier has made a personal opportunity of debating the Bill in Committee I explanation, he has not raised a point of order. If he would have gone through most of the clauses with a found the remarks offensive, that is a different story. fine toothcomb, picked out the numerous typographical errors and moved substantial Mr McNAMARA - I would like a withdrawal. amendments to improve the Bill and the position of the Victoria Police Force. If the opposition has the Mr Cole - I won't withdraw. It's not a point of opportunity, it will move the amendments in the order; it's a statement of fact! Upper House. Mr SERCOMBE (Niddrie) - On the point of The opposition is not suggesting that a crook police order, Mr Deputy Speaker, the honourable member officer who has been found guilty of an offence for Melbourne is not reflecting on the chief should not be drummed out of the Police Force. commissioner; he is reflecting on the Minister's No-one argues against that. However, if it has not administration. If the honourable member for been proved at the disciplinary board and the Melbourne is allowed to develop his point it will appeal board that an officer's conduct is prejudicial become clear that his criticism is of the Minister, not to the Police Force, or even constitutes an offence, MrComrie. that officer should not be dismissed. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Given that the Mr McNamara - Does the chief commissioner Deputy Leader of the Opposition said the comments need more power? of the honourable member for Melbourne were directed at the Minister, and the Minister finds them Mr COLE - No, he does not need more power. offensive, I ask him to withdraw.

Mr McNamara - Are you sure? Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - On the point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, it was not Mr COLE - Absolutely. The opposition accepts unparliamentary -- that when the new Chief Commissioner of Police was imported by the Minister for Police and The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! On the same Emergency Services it was an unequivocally point of order? political appointment. The person for the job was John Frame. He had earned the right to be appointed Mr KENNAN - Yes. The language was not to that position. John Frame was no friend or enemy unparliamentary; it was not a reference to the of the Labor Party. He was a policeman who did his Minister as a person but a reference to the fact that job for 30 years. This Minister, for whatever the Minister is a politician and the appointment was reason - we think it was political - chose to made by the executive government of the day. appoint Assistant Commissioner Comrie from the Therefore, it was a political appointment. Queensland Police Force. That is not to say that Neil Comrie is not capable of filling the role. There is no lbat simply does not fall into the category of suggestion of that, but when one looks at it -- remarks that reflect on a member. It would be POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1696 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 different if the honourable member were to say that Mr Kennan (to Mr McNamara) - One could say the Minister is a cowboy, a buffoon or a failed real it was a sunny day, and you would find that estate agent - that would be out of order. But we offensive and ask for it to be withdrawn! are not saying that. If we made those comments, they would have to be withdrawn. But the comment Honourable Members - Withdraw! that was made does not fall into that category. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I repeat: the Or NAPTHINE (portland) - On the point of Minister for Police and Emergency Services found order, Mr Deputy Speaker, Standing Order No. 108 the comments to be offensive, but the honourable is quite clear: member for Melbourne argues that he did not mean them that way. I remind the House that the Deputy No member shall use offensive or unbecoming words Leader of the Opposition said the comments were in reference to any member of the House and all directed towards the Minister. imputations of improper motives and all personal reflections on members shall be deemed disorderly. However, I will ask the honourable member for Melbourne to continue his speech and to bear in For the honourable member for Melbourne to mind Standing Order No. 108 in relation to casting suggest that the appointment of the police aspersions on honourable members. commissioner was a political appointment is contrary to the Standing Orders. It imputes Mr COLE - I shall not recap. I say only that we improper motives and represents an attack on the do not have any problem with the fact that Chief Minister, who is clearly within his rights under the Commissioner Comrie has been appointed, but we Standing Orders to ask for the imputation to be believe former Assistant Commissioner Frame withdrawn. Mr Deputy Speaker, you have asked the should have been appointed. We will leave it to honourable member to withdraw and he should do others to discuss the motives for the appointment. It so. is unfortunate and inappropriate that the former assistant commissioner was not appointed, but I will The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair can not risk offending the Minister by questioning his deal only with the point of order before it, which is motives for appointing Mr Comrie. that the Deputy Premier finds the words offensive and has asked for them to be withdrawn. The Having said that, I point out that Chief Deputy Leader of the Opposition said the remarks Commissioner Comrie wants summary dismissal were directed to the Minister and not to the chief powers. The chief commissioner was the commissioner and under those circumstances the investigator in the incident concerning Sergeant Chair has no alternative but to ask the honourable Tanner. Because it was thought that Sergeant Tanner member for Melbourne to withdraw. was feeding information to and working with drug dealers, he was sent to Force Reserve and was left Honourable members interjecting. there as though he had been sent to Siberia. Nothing happened to him. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair has asked the honourable member for Melbourne to Finally, the matter was forced to the board for withdraw. review. When the matter was heard, the judge decided there was no evidence whatsoever to Mr COLE (Melbourne) - I can't withdraw. support the proposition that Sergeant Tanner was doing anything wrong. Although his life was almost Or Napthine - Throw him out! destroyed, he was saved and sent back to Benalla to carry on his duties as a sergeant. Mr COLE - I am not withdrawing. I wished to make the comment. The original decision was damning, more is the pity. The new chief commissioner was required to prove Mr McNamara interjected. that Sergeant Tanner acted in a manner that warranted his dismissal from the Police Force, but Mr COLE - That is all I am saying - he should that did not happen. have appointed John Frame. In memorandums to the Police Force the chief commissioner argued that, because extensive POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1697 investigative procedures are required to prove guilt, hearing takes place. An officer should at least be this type of case has cost the government a lot of allowed to give a written explanation of the matters. money. Heaven forbid that you should have to Proposed new section 74 states: prove somebody is guilty beyond reasonable doubt! The Chief Commissioner may authorise any member of Sergeant Tanner was found not guilty. However, the force or any person appointed or employed... according to the legislation now proposed by the Minister -legislation the chief commissioner It should be amended to read: wants - Sergeant Tanner would have been drummed out of the Police Force. The review judge The Chief Commissioner may authorise any member of was critical of then Assistant Inspector Comrie, who the force at the rank of Chief Superintendent or above now wants the power of summary dismissal. or any person appointed or employed under the Public Sector Management Act 1992 to charge a member or to It is the Sergeant Tanners of this world whom the inquire into and determine a charge under section 73. opposition seeks rightly or wrongly to defend. There is no logical, coherent or jurisprudential reason why The Bill deals with serious matters that should not Sergeant Tanner, along with every other copper in be delegated to any member of the force. Substantial the Police Force, should not have a right of appeal amendments should be made to the Bill. against a dismissal decision made by a chief commissioner. Mr TRAYNOR (Ballarat East) - In recent years issues have been raised that require the police to be We are not putting some bodgie, self-righteous view more accountable for their actions in the public about referring the matter to a half-baked committee arena. The public in general is more aware of and with a suggestion that perhaps the accused should inquisitive about its rights and appropriate police be exonerated from the alleged offences and that practices. Apart from the basic principles of the dismissal should apply after a mere referral - we charter of the Victoria Police to protect life and say the government should introduce a proper property, the public is entitled to safety and security procedure. from a disciplined organisation.

The chief commissioner can at no time be More than any other organisation, the Police Force omnipotent when dealing with a force of some must have high standards of fairness and integrity. 10 400 members. The Bill empower him to sack The new Chief Commissioner of Police, Mr Comrie, members of the force, but there should be some has expressed a desire to streamline police discipline capacity to review the decisions of the chief and have the necessary powers to carry out his commissioner. duties, including the power to dismiss.

The opposition is also concerned about other As the honourable member for Glen Waverley said, provisions of the Bill. Proposed new section 84(1) in the power he requires is no more than a chief clause 10 provides that a police officer who is the executive officer has in a large private enterprise subject of an inquiry may be represented by any company. The chief commissioner is the chief person other than a barrister or solicitor. The executive of a large organisation of some 12 ()()() opposition believes that because a charge may have members and should have the same right as any such a deleterious impact on his or her life a police chief executive of a private company to hire or fire. officer should have the right to choose to be represented by a lawyer. I cannot see why a police At some stage the chief commissioner will be officer cannot have legal representation. That matter required to make decisions on disciplinary matters, is important to the Victoria Police Association. and anyone who bends the rules or runs off the rails, regardless of whether it is to the detriment of the Although the association has not necessarily worked organisation or the individual, should be disciplined in conjunction with the Labor Party in the past, it by the chief commissioner. has informed the opposition of many concerns it has about the Bill. Proposed new section 71(2) in clause The Victoria Police Association has expressed 10 should be amended to provide that the chief concern about the proposed changes in the Bill, but commissioner must not charge an officer without it has nothing to fear; Mr Comrie is not asking for first giving him full written details of the alleged anything other than a high standard in the Police breach. A set period should elapse before any POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

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Force. The public should support the stance taken by powers need to be reinstated. The 1985 Neesham MrComrie. Committee of Inquiry supported the move, and found that confidence in the Police Force is Editorials in the Herald Sun and Age of 6 April refer influenced by the public perception of how police to concerns expressed by people about the powers of powers are exercised and how complaints are the chief commissioner. Mr Comrie wants to speed investigated and the credibility of police disciplinary up the resolution of matters once charges have been mechanisms. dealt with by the courts. The current delays in hearing disciplinary matters are of concern. On his Police forces around the world give their chief recent trip to the country the chief commissioner commissioners the right to hire and fire. In 1960 the was advised of matters that had been hanging over Chicago police department introduced a similar the heads of police officers for up to 15 months. system to the one the chief commissioner wants to introduce in Victoria. Chicago was rocked by the The chief commissioner wants a system that Summerdale scandal in which some of its officers administers timely discipline to members of the were found to be involved in a burglary ring. force and restores public confidence. There is a need to abolish the current legalistic and costly adversary We have all seen the Rodney King incident on system and to have matters dealt with promptly in television. Commissioner Gates and officers Powell, an administrative forum. Currently a member could Koon and Baseno were stood down without pay, be convicted of a major offence involving corruption and officer Wind, a probationary constable, was and be sentenced to a long gaol term, but the chief sacked without pay after that incident. At least with commissioner cannot dismiss that member. this disciplinary system those officers would not be stood down. Some members have been convicted in the courts on charges of dishonesty, but when the matters were Mr Cole interjected. heard by the Police Service Board the members were reinstated and sent back to the districts where they The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable committed the offences. member for Melbourne is not assisting the debate one bit. There should be no chitchat across the Honourable members interjecting. Chamber.

The SPEAKER - Order! The level of Mr TRAYNOR - I spent 26 years in the Police interjections across the table is too high. The Force and I have witnessed some similar incidents. If interjections may not be very loud but they are the Police Force is to command respect and be penetrating. I ask honourable members to listen in accountable, these measures should be in place so silence. the police commissioner can exercise his right to hire, fire and discipline his officers. I support the Bill. Mr TRAYNOR - Another example is that of a country officer against whom complaints were made Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The House regarding his relationships with girls between the should not be dealing with this Bill tonight. The ages of 10 and 12 years. It took two and a half years Police Association of Victoria wants to make to get him before the disciplinary board, and he representations to the Scrutiny of Acts and resigned on the date on which an application for an Regulations Committee, thereby making adjournment was unsuccessful. Within two months representation to this Parliament, but the of his resignation he was charged with sexual government has denied it that opportunity because offences against a young girl. the Bill must be debated and passed tonight. During the 10 years of the former Labor government The current system has inherent problems of lengthy members of the coalition parties repeatedly said that delays and significant costs. In the case of one senior the former government should have taken more constable it cost the department $67 000 to appeal notice of what the police were saying, yet the first against compulsory transfer. thing the coalition government does is establish a Police Board and abolish the fair system of discipline Prior to 1946 when the Police Discipline Board was that existed in the Police Force without giving the established the Chief Commissioner of Police had police a say in the matter. the power to dismiss members from the force. Things have changed dramatically and today those POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

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What will the backbench members of the Government members who have been in the Police government say to their local police officers who Force will be aware of the wild allegations that are come to them and say, 'Well, we've got some made against police and that, in some objections to this legislation. We wanted to put them circumstances, elements within the Police Force are to Parliament and to the appropriate committee, but particularly enthusiastic about investigating those you wouldn't give us the chance". allegations and laying charges. This Bill will not protect police officers who have been unfairly Mr Kennan interjected. charged.

Mr THWAITES - It seems pathetic! What is the The consequences for a police officer who is unfairly great urgency for this Bill? No great crisis exists in charged and who is found guilty of diSCiplinary Victoria Police that demands that this Bill be put offences are serious. The first thing a police officer through tOnight, nor is there any great evidence of loses is his or her reputation, and for many police widespread corruption within the Police Force. officers that is probably the most serious consequence of all. If a police officer is found guilty Mr Traynor interjected. and his or her reputation is smeared, it does not mean that an appeal is available. So a police officer Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for such as the honourable member for Ballarat East Ballarat East thinks that because one police officer is could have a charge laid against him, have that found to be corrupt, the whole Police Force is charge determined by another police officer - not corrupt. The Victoria Police is one of the best in even by the Chief Commissioner of Police - and Australia, and in the world. No evidence exists of then be reprimanded or fined, say, $300 or $400. A widespread corruption in the Victoria Police, nor story could be published in the local press and that its diSCiplinary procedures are faulty. Indeed, spread around the police organisations and the local those procedures have been working well since the Liberal Party branch that that police officer has been 194Os. found guilty of a disciplinary charge. The police officer would have no chance of an appeal. That is Mr Kennan interjected. totally unfair.

Mr THWAITES - That seems to be the bottom The opposition does not want to protect corrupt or line. The government has abolished the Accident guilty police officers. It is concerned about innocent Compensation Tribunal, the Industrial Relations police officers who have been wrongly found to Commission of Victoria and, in this Bill, wants to have breached discipline and who have been abolish the Supreme Court's jurisdiction in this area reprimanded and had their reputations destroyed and any legal representation of these cases. Why is and for whom no appeal mechanism is available. the government so scared of independent scrutiny of these matters? What does the government have The government is putting disciplinary procedures against the Supreme Court? What does it have in the hands of not only the police commissioner but against lawyers? What does the government have also any person that the police commissioner against the Police Service Board and the disciplinary authorises to conduct an inquiry. That person could board of the Police Force, which is made up of be a police officer or a public servant. A police magistrates? officer could be subject to the scrutiny of a public servant who has no experience, skill or knowledge This Bill is unfair to police officers who may be of police conduct or of the way a trial should be subject to disciplinary charges. Not all officers who conducted, and the public servant could then find face disciplinary charges are guilty. The attitude that police officer guilty. That is what the among some members of the government is that government wants. everyone is guilty until proven innocent, but other government members are aware that some police Mr Kennan - The honourable member for officers who are subject to disciplinary hearings are Ballarat East wants that. not guilty, even though they are charged. I am concerned about those people. They are the people Mr THWAITES - It seems he does. that I hope members of the government are concerned about and want to give a fair go. The SPEAKER - Order! Will the honourable member for Albert Park resume his seat? Some time in the past week or so the question was raised with POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1700 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 the Chair about how far members could go before among members of the Police Force there are the Chair took action. Without being too pointed, I elements who are overly enthusiastic in the way believe several members tOnight are coming very they carry out their investigations. They have a close to that point. I intend saying no more. belief in a person's possible guilt and are determined to find the person guilty regardless of the truth of Mr THWAITES - The government is putting the case. A good example of that is the Blackbum discipline in the hands of the Chief Commissioner of case in New South Wales, where Mr Blackbum, a Police. I am not critical of the police commissioner. former senior police officer, was believed to have The problem is that the legislation will apply in the committed a serious offence. An inquiry found that future and to any future incumbent of the chief a whole branch of the New South Wales police had commissioner's position. Unfortunately, some police been so enthusiastic in its pursuit of Mr Blackbum commissioners in other States have been found to be that police officers had lost their perception of the corrupt. Indeed, senior police officers, not just in rights and wrongs of the matter and had the former Queensland but in other States such as New South police officer charged with the offence although they Wales, have been found to be corrupt. The had no proper justification for doing so. Again, that legislation does not provide checks and balances on situation does not apply to people in ordinary those corrupt police officers. That is a serious employment. concern. The next point is that sometimes police investigators The other point raised in support of the legislation is get it wrong. The honourable member for that it is said that it merely puts the chief Melbourne referred to this possibility among his commissioner in the same position as the chief other references. He referred to his numerous executive officer of a business or a government relatives in the Police Force - Constable Cole! The department. Of course there are real distinctions honourable member referred to a case where the between the Police Force and an ordinary business investigators got it very wrong and a police officer's or a government department. Firstly, police officers reputation was besmirched, he lost his position and are susceptible to charges that they have done was transferred to the Force Reserve on the basis of something wrong. Police officers are dealing with what was subsequently found by the Police criminals, undercover agents, drugs, bribery and Discipline Board to be completely wrong various other matters in their work all the time. As a information. Under the system proposed in the Bill result police officers often find themselves wrongly that police officer would still be in the reserve or accused of crime or wrongdoing. That does not drummed out of the force altogether. apply to the same extent to ordinary businesses or Public Service organisations. If I were a member of the government I would be concerned about that - an honest police officer The second distinction relates to the point I made being drummed out of the force on the basis of earlier: that there is an element within the Police wrong information! The reason the wrong was Force that is corrupt. In other States the corrupt righted in that case was because an independent police element has used its ability to make body examined the issue and the police officer had allegations of wrongdoing against other police the chance to be legally represented, which will not officers as a way of stopping whistleblowing police be permitted if the legislation is passed. Because that officers. A good demonstration of that occucred in officer was legally represented and because there Queensland where a police officer who blew the was an independent arbitrator, he is where he ought whistle on other senior officers was charged with an to be today, serving in the force. If I were a police offence. That was a good way of silencing her. A officer I would be concerned about being subject to a similar thing occurred in New South Wales where wrong allegation, being brought before another an officer approached senior officers and blew the police officer, not being entitled to legal whistle, but those senior officers were corrupt representation, being found guilty and then themselves and the whistleblowing officer - that transferred into purgatory or drummed out of the honest officer - was charged with an offence. That force. is another distinction between the police and people in ordinary employment, because that situation does Ordinary employees are not subject to a fine if they not apply in ordinary employment. breach diSCiplinary rules. That may have changed under the provisions of the Employee Relations Act, Another distinction between members of the Police although I do not believe the penal provisions apply. Force and people in ordinary employment is that POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

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Mr Lupton interjected. officers - a magistrate and a County Court judge - who are appointed to their positions for life and are Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for not biased in any way. Knox interjects that he does not believe they should be hanged. Employees in the normal employment Under the Bill the Chief Commissioner of Police can situation are not subject to a fine, whereas under the authorise any police officer or public servant to provisions of the Bill police officers may be subject conduct an inquiry into a disciplinary charge. That to a fine of up to $4000. That is a further distinction. leads to a number of breaches of the first rule of natural justice. Firstly, police officers and public Another factor is that ordinary employees can take servants are not judges, they are not independent action if they believe they have been dismissed and they are not appointed for life. Secondly, unjustly. The Bill does not provide for police to take because they have no experience in conducting action for unjust dismissal, and to make sure it has hearings they may allow breaches of proper excluded the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court procedure to take place. altogether. A police officer is in a much worse situation than an ordinary employee. Indeed, an The third major problem is that the prosecutor who ordinary employee who is wrongfully dismissed or leads the disciplinary charge and the judge who thrown out of his job on the basis of wrong hears it may both come from the same branch of the information can sue the employer for wrongful Police Force. It may happen that the Internal dismissal and obtain damages or compensation. Investigations Department provides both the Proposed section 86AA inserted by clause 10 prosecutor and the judge. That breaches the most excludes the payment of compensation to a member fundamental rule of all - that one body should not of the force for dismissal or reduction of rank. To be both prosecutor and judge. That is the system the ensure there is no possibility of any outside Bill will set up, and the government should be independent organisation having a say, the Supreme concerned about that. Court jurisdiction is specifically excluded. In relation to the first rule - that there should be an That has been a tendency with other pieces of independent adjudicator - the jurisdiction of the government legislation introduced this sessional Supreme Court has been wiped out. As a result, a period. It happened with the amendments to the case may be decided by one little branch of the Local Government Act. Almost every Bill introduced Police Force that may for whatever reason have a into the House has excluded the jurisdiction of the vendetta against or an objection to a person, which Supreme Court. That may be a method of reducing means that that person will not get a fair hearing. delays in the Supreme Court but it does not assist The Police Review Commission will not necessarily justice in the State. be headed by a judge or a judicial officer. In fact the Bill contains no criteria for the composition of the The honourable members for Niddrie and commission. So far as I can see, it could be staffed by Melbourne said that the legislation breaches the anyone. rules of natural justice. There are two components of the rule of natural justice: firstly, an adjudicator The next point is that there is no automatic right of must not be biased or be seen to be biased; and appeal to the commission in any event. The only secondly, a person must be given a fair hearing­ time a right of appeal will exist is when the charges that is, a person should have a reasonable chance to are found proven and when the police officer be heard and to have his case heard before a concerned is fined more than $500 or is dismissed, decision is made against him. The proposed reduced in rank or transferred. However, if the legislation breaches both those rules. police officer is found guilty and reprimanded or is found guilty and fined $250 or $300, there will be no The first rule of natural justice is that an adjudicator right of appeal. Furthermore, as the honourable must not be seen to be biased. Under the current member for Niddrie has pointed out, even if the system the Police Discipline Board is headed by a commission makes a determination, it is not binding magistrate; and an appeal from a decision of that on the Chief Commissioner of Police. board is heard by the Police Service Board, which is headed by a County Court judge and which also I turn to the second rule of natural justice - that comprises representatives from the Police there should be a fair hearing. The courts have Association and the department. Both of those always upheld that rule, but the Bill throws it out tribunals are headed by independent judicial the window because it contains no provision for a POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1702 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 fair hearing. I shall give some illustrations. The first members of the Police Force and expects them to breach of the rule occurs right at the beginning of have a professional attitude to their work. The Bill the process. The Bill provides that a police officer gives the Chief Commissioner of Police the power to can be ordered to take his or her accrued leave when make the force more professional. The opposition an investigation commences and even before the does not seem to make the same demands of private police officer has had any chance to put evidence in enterprise that it makes of the chief commissioner. his or her defence. Under the current system a police officer does not lose that accrued leave; he or she is Opposition members quoted cases of police suspended but with full pay. Under the provisions members who were hard done by. It was pleasing to of the Bill the police officer could find that he or she hear that opposition members had no problem with will lose the right to accrued leave. police officers being charged with criminal or other serious offences. The area with which they have The next major issue relating to a fair hearing is that difficulty is offences against discipline. We should a police officer will have no right to legal remember that before any action can take place a representation. That seems unnecessary and member of the Police Force must first be charged. It extraordinary. Given that a police officer can lose his then follows the process set out in the Bill. or her reputation, a significant amount of money and a job, I should have thought a right to legal I refer to a report issued by the Police Discipline representation was not only reasonable but essential. Board that gives examples of specific cases. In one case a sergeant attended the scene of a metropolitan Because of the time I shall not go through any single-car accident involving a police vehicle. The further breaches of the rules of natural justice, except driver of the police vehicle was obviously to say that not all members of the Police Force who intoxicated and was allowed to leave the scene are charged are guilty. The Bill will not adequately temporarily to make a phone call. A senior sergeant protect the rights of those who are innocent. was called to the scene because of a number of calls from concerned local residents. Neither the sergeant Mr TURNER (Bendigo West) - I have listened nor the senior sergeant thought to administer a intently to the honourable members for Melbourne, preliminary breath test or a subsequent breathalyser Niddrie and Albert Park. Because I was a police test to the police driver involved - it just did not officer for 17 years I have some knowledge of how enter their heads! the Police Force works. I have also been an employer in private practice. It amazes me that opposition The duty officer, who was an inspector, contacted speakers seem to want to have their cake and eat it the senior sergeant by radio to inquire about the too. breath testing of the driver. He was told that the officers involved had overlooked it. On the The honourable member for Melbourne gave a long insistence of the inspector a test was performed history of his association with the Police Force shortly before the expiry of the period within which through members of his family. I know the a test must be administered. honourable member for Melbourne is an honest man. He mentioned that when he was at the bar he Both the sergeant and the senior sergeant were regularly defended people against criminal charges. subsequently charged with failure to perform their He suggested that he was vigorous in his criticism of duty efficiently, in that they allowed a delay that some members of the Police Force. He then ventured may have jeopardised the charging of the police a little further and spoke about someone being driver involved - that is, it could be construed that blown away unnecessarily by the police. the officers were trying to protect the police driver. The charges were subsequently dismissed because As I said, opposition members cannot have their the Road Safety Act does not require an officer to cake and eat it too. On the one hand, when he was at perform the tests as a matter of duty. In other words, the bar the honourable member for Melbourne was there was no requirement for the officers to be critical of some police and the way they worked; but efficient. That manifestly legalistic interpretation of on the other hand, he suddenly finds that the Bill is the Road Safety Act was highly inappropriate to the totally obnoxious to the police officers he was once circumstances of the case. Only the actions of the critical of. inspector resulted in the police driver being dealt with for his irresponsibility. It has been my experience that over the years the community has become more demanding of serving POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1703

Although I could cite other cases, other honourable It is sad that in an organisation like the Police Force members wish to speak on the Bill and I will not there will always be some officers who do the wrong take the matter further. That case is an illustration of thing - there are always a few rotten apples in the how officers who should have been disciplined barrel. I have a good relationship with the members escaped disciplinary action as a result of a legalistic of the force in the Shepparton area, but any current interpretation of the legislation. or former member of the Police Force will agree that there are some police officers who let the team Those sorts of things have happened consistently down. Normally only about three officers a year are over the years because the Chief Commissioner of dismissed from the Police Force. In many cases Police of the day has not had the power to control a officers guilty of misconduct resign, often retaining force of more than 10000 officers. The current chief all their entitlements; it is rare that an officer is commissioner is not the first to request the powers dismissed. provided under the Bill; the two previous chief commissioners requested similar powers from the Further legislation will be introduced to provide previous government. Any honourable member members of the Police Force with the extra powers listening to the contributions to the debate of for which they have been asking for many years. opposition members would understand why those Those powers will assist police in criminal requests were refused. investigations. With those new powers will come more responsibility and accountability, which Most members of the Victoria Police are dedicated ultimately rests with the chief commissioner. The and hard working officers who are held in high chief commissioner must have full control of the esteem by the public. Police officers to whom I talk, members of the force, including the ability to whether they are friends from my days in the force dismiss them following a proper process if they let or people who have joined since, have no time for the force down. police officers who do not perform their duties as they should or who are corrupt. It is appropriate Currently if there is a breach of discipline in the that the proposed legislation gives the chief Police Force a lengthy procedure must be followed. commissioner power to weed out individuals who Five or six steps must be gone through before an are not doing their job properly. Victoria at last has a officer may be dismissed. Officers have the police Minister who is prepared to give the Chief opportunity of having their cases heard in a number Commissioner of Police the power he needs. I of areas within the Police Force before they are likely commend the Bill to honourable members. to face dismissal.

Mr KILGOUR (Shepparton) - The Chief Under the provisions of this Bill the Chief Commissioner of Police, who commands a force of Commissioner of Police will not know the details of more than 10 000 officers, currently has no power to any case until they are sent to him from the Internal dismiss an officer. The chief executives of large Investigation Department via various other internal corporations or other business organisations have procedures. In those circumstances only the cases of control over their personnel and the power to officers who are guilty of misconduct will be dismiss employees for misconduct. The chief considered by the chief commissioner. commissioner, as the person responsible for controlling the operation of the Police Force, must Sitting suspended 12 midnight until 12.32 a.m. have the power to dismiss any officer who brings (Friday), the force into disrepute or threatens the efficiency of its operations. Mr KILGOUR -If there has been a breach of discipline at station level, the member will be As has already been mentioned, the two previous spoken to at the district level and the matter will go chief commissioners requested the power to dismiss to a district officer. When the basic concerns and officers but were not granted that power. The results of preliminary investigations can be current police disciplinary system is time provided, the ma tter can then be transferred to the consuming, costly and inefficient and needs to be Internal Investigations Department for a full changed. In order to manage the Police Force investigation. At this stage the member has an properly the chief commissioner must be opportunity to put his or her case. accountable for the officers under his control. If the case is not serious the lID will submit the matter to the district level for attention. If it is found POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1704 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 to be a criminal charge it goes to the courts. If it is now Premier said that if the appointment was made purely a disciplinary charge, it can be referred from the Liberals did not have to accept it. The opposition the lID to the deputy commissioner or assistant has accused the Minister for Police and Emergency commissioner. If there is a possible dismissal it will Services of making a political appointment, which is be referred to a deputy commissioner. absolute rubbish, absolute lies.

If the charge is proven and dismissal is imminent, Mr Sercombe - Who made the appointment? the case will be subject to a review process by an independent review commissioner from outside the Mr LUPTON - The Queen's Counsel, I hear. I force, either a retired judge or a retired public also note the comments that have been made about servant with relevant experience appointed by the inviting the Police Association to address the Minister. That was announced by the Minister in his Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee next second-reading speech. The member may then Monday. The Police Association has already appeal to the review commissioner and may be addressed the government's Bills committee. The supported by another member of his or her choice. chief commissioner has also addressed that committee. The Bill has been deferred once and the The review commissioner will then recommend opposition now wants the government to defer it action to the chief commissioner. This will be the again so that it can go before another committee. first time the chief commissioner has come across How many times does it have to be deferred? the case. He will notify the member within 14 days of the result of the appeal. The chief commissioner What is put forward in this Bill is not a new concept. must report those results and the reasons for Alterations to the legislation governing the police dismissal in the polict> annual report, and the review have been made over the terms of three chief commissioner will report his findings to both commissioners, and still the Labor Party when in Houses of Parliamt>nt. The Minister would view government did nothing. The community has very seriously any recommendation against the demanded that the Police Force have greater powers review commissioner. and a greater ability to assist the community through its operational procedures. It is essential This disciplinary system is impartial and fair and that the Chief Commissioner of Police have more will improve the effectiveness and administration of diSCiplinary powers within the force. Already the the force. The community will appreciate that the chief commissioner can discipline public servants, person in charge of the operation of law enforcement protective services officers, police recruits and in Victoria is in full control of the force and has the reservists, yet police - sworn officers - do not face ability to ensure that actions which bring disrepute the same disciplinary code as all other members to the best Police Force in the country can be dealt under his control. with. I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward the Bill and wish it a speedy passage It is quite clear that the opposition is trying to make through both Houses. waves. Allegations made in debate have been incorrect. Opposition members have spoken about a Mr LUPTON (Knox) - I do not have a father, lack of review powers. Quite clearly they have mother, mother-in-law or any other relation in the spoken untruths; they stretch the truth to the upper Police Force. Probably the closest to a relative I can limit. claim in the Police Force is my brother's son-in-law. The honourable member for Melbourne has spoken The Police Force is like any other business. It has a about his family tree and close associations with the budget and it has to manage manpower, personnel, Police Force. I cannot go as far as that, but I am a computers and other resources. It is all very well for great supporter of the Victorian Police Force and the shadow Minister for Police and Emergency find it is an exceptional body. Services to laugh. The Police Force has a budget to keep within; it must be adhered to. As a chief The opposition has quite clearly alleged that there is executive of a business, the Chief Commissioner of corruption within the Police Force; I totally reject the Police is entitled to the same sort -- innuendo of previous debates. Comments have been made about the appointment of the Chief Mr Sercombe interjected. Commissioner of Police. The opposition should realise that when it appointed the last chief commissioner the then Leader of the Opposition and POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1705

Mr LUPTON - Is the member talking to me or the head of a disciplined organisation and that is through the Chair? I have been in Parliament for what he is there for. only six months and I know not to talk like that. I shall not take up any further time of the House by The purpose of the Bill is to modernise the repeating what members of the government have disciplinary powers of the Chief Commissioner of already said. I support the Bill and I wish it a speedy Police. It is only fair and reasonable that we should passage. go down that path. The government does not believe a word that has been said by the opposition. The Mr ROWE (Cranbourne) - As a former member opposition has stretched the truth to the absolute of the Victoria Police Force this Bill is important to limit. I wish the Bill a speedy passage and me. The most retrograde step the Victoria Police congratulate the government on a job well done. Association took was aligning itself with the Trades Hall Council and the Labor Party. Perhaps one day it Mr JENKINS (Ballarat West) - The primary will live to regret that step! function of the Bill is to streamline the police disciplinary system and provide the Chief Honourable members opposite who claim to have Commissioner of Police with greater disciplinary certain legal qualifications would do well to read the powers. It is well known that the Police Force is a Bill rather than mislead the public and members of disciplined organisation. Discipline is important to the Police Force in their suggestions that the right of all organisations, whether they be military, appeal to the Supreme Court has been removed. government or private. Discipline works, and good That is not the case. diSCipline comes from the top. The Bill encourages diSCipline in the Po1ice Force to be controlled from I have taken advice tonight from an eminent lawyer the top and not from the side, as the opposition and barrister who advises me that proposed suggests. section 129A applies to the right of compensation only and does not affect the right of a member of the Men and women who join the Police Force know Police Force to seek natural justice before the they are joining a disciplined organisation and that Supreme Court. they must accept that discipline. Although some do the wrong thing, most police officers do the right The Victoria Police Force is an organisation of some thing and have the admiration of the community. 10000 members over which the Chief Commissioner Those who do the wrong thing must be disciplined, of Police should have the right of hiring and firing. and the Bill creates a fair disciplinary system. He already has it over a number of people under his control, including those in protective services How many police officers are disciplined by the groups, public servants and reservists or cruef commissioner? I doubt that it would be more probationary constables. than two or three a year. I have spoken to many members of the Police Force about the Bill, and During my experience in the Police Force on a despite what has been said at mass meetings called number of occasions senior officers expressed the by the Victoria Police Associa tion, police officers wish to terminate the employment of members who accept that the Bill is the best thing for them. were undesirable but they were denied the opportunity to do so. It is well known that in the past the hearings for police who have done the wrong thing have been In my capacity as the honourable member for delayed and the officers concerned miraculously Cranbourne I have consulted with officers of resign just before their cases are to be heard by the E district from the rank of chief inspector down and Police Discipline Board. Because they resign before have found a great deal of support for the Bill. I getting their just deserts they get their suggest that the shadow Minister would do well to superannuation benefits and so on. read the newspaper reports on the number of people who attended the police rally - it was some The Bill provides for the Police Review Commission 1500 and not the 3000 he claimed. The numbers at to advise the chief commissioner about certain the meeting were swelled by retired members of the actions. The Victoria Police Association believes it force. The president of the association representing should be mandatory for the chief commissioner to retired police officers contacted me - he happens to take that advice. The government believes the chief be one of my constituents - and advised me that a commissioner should have the final decision. He is report about superannuation was to be handed POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

1706 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 down at the meeting so that retired police would be divisions we will knock off your CPA trips". The encouraged to attend, thereby swelling the numbers. blackmail goes on!

The meeting was not totally representative of the The SPEAKER - Order! I believe the Leader of 8500 members of the force who were out doing their the Opposition is straying from the Bill. duty on the day and not wasting time listening to the poppycock put forward by the Police Mr KENNAN - Not at all, Mr Speaker. The Association, which had obviously been fed false government misunderstands the valueS of our information by the opposition. I commend the Bill to democracy, and that is shown in the mentality of the the House. government about the rights of Parliamentarians and the rights of the judiciary. The government Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - This regards judges as people who can be bought, sold or issue goes to the core of what is wrong with the sacked. philosophy of the government. As the report of the Victorian Commission of Audit indicates, the We have an excellent Police Force. It is regarded as government is interested only in service units or an excellent Police Force by Australians and, indeed, provider organisations. It does not matter whether it by the standards of the Organisation for Economic is justice, the police or the right to education; the Cooperation and Development. government views everything as something to be purchased. Everything has a monetary value. It is Mr Finn interjected. the ultimate reduction of everything to equate with some small business run by Peter Boyle. Mr KENNAN - The honourable member for Tullamarine violently disagrees with that. Some things in our community are different from the small business mentality that this government Mr Finn - I do not! and the audit commission report are so comprehensively infected with. Justice is not to be Mr KENNAN - The honourable member for bought and sold; the Victoria Police Force is not to Bendigo East may want to reverse his view about be bought and sold. Those things are not to be widespread corruption in the Police Force as may detennined by a group of accountants because they other members on the other side because their are qualitatively different. speeches will be in Hansard and will be circulated to their peers. They fail to understand that the police In their justification of the Bill members of the have a duty to the law, unlike the draft Public government have said that the Chief Commissioner Service code that is being circulated by the of Police is like any small business proprietor or the government. A policeman is not obliged to carry out chief executive of any business organisation and that an illegal instruction. He is not obliged to turn a he should have the powers of the chief executive of blind eye to a breach of the law by a citizen because any such organisation. That argument is wrong he has taken an oath to uphold and enforce the law. because the Victoria Police Force is not just any organisation; it is not Coles-Myer, it is not When a policeman is an informant in a court case he Mr Boyle's local newspaper and it is not an or she brings to that case his or her own name advertising agency in Surrey Hills. because he or she is acting as an individual. The action is not brought in the name of a superior or the Each member of the Police Force takes a separa te Chief Commissioner of Police; it is brought in the oath to enforce the law. Each has a separate duty name of the individual police officer. That is the and each is not obliged to do anything other than most fundamental point, and honourable members carry out and execute the law. The position of the who have been in the Police Force know about this chief commissioner and members of the community but they have carefully chosen to ignore that is fundamentally different from that of a police inconvenient fact. It is as fundamental as the officer. A police officer is a servant of the public and censorship that is going on in our schools and the of the law. One has only to read the motto of the threats that are being made against Police Force to understand that. The Bill is as Parliamentarians' rights almost on a daily basis. The fundamentally offensive to the notion of democracy blackmail by the government goes on, and it is as everything else that the government has done. extremely offensive. The Premier recently said, ''If you call any more POLICE REGULATION (DISCIPLINE) BILL

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1707

We know the Police Force is different. It is not a of individuals, who are fearful of those individuals commercial organisation. It is not as the Victorian and, under the Bill, do not have the right of redress Commission of Audit suggested: that all these things or appeal. The commission can make only are the bottom-line matters. We live in a society with retrospective recommendations which do not have values, and one of those values is an independent to be observed. Police Force. I remember a judge saying to me, ''There are various tests for a democracy, such as one The great bulk of members of the Police Force are vote, one value and an independent judiciary, but if opposed to the Bill, and understandably so. They one wanted to pick the one thing that is most hold that view by reason of their role in society. important it is a fearless and independent Police However, Parliamentarians must take a wider view Force. That value marks a decent society". The and recognise that the Bill strikes at the heart of an duties of the police are special because each police independent Police Force. The government of the officer swears a separate oath and has an individual day appoints the Chief Commissioner of Police, and duty, whether instructed or not, to investigate and I do not quarrel with that. We recognise that that prosecute offenders. appointment should be made by the government of the day and that the judgment about a suitable Police officers are also subject to diSCiplinary person will vary from time to time, but if the Bill procedures. Under the Bill they can be dealt with or becomes law the Police Force will be made up of just sacked. That is not just. The chief commissioner individuals in the image of that person, because for may authorise any member of the force or any the first time in this State, that person can sack person appointed or employed under the Public officers. This will undermine the government in a Sector Management Act to charge a member or to whole range of ways, as was said during the last make inquiries. It could be anyone. All police forces sessional period, and, to paraphrase T. S. Eliot, ''In have problems with their internal investigation the beginning is the end". The government has set units. These units do an extremely difficult job, but values which are an anathema to the opposition and they are naturally treated with resentment and to decent Victorians. disdain by the rest of the Police Force. One only needs to see the television series Phoenix, which is The role of the Chief Commissioner of Police is not said to be true to life, to understand this. The unit the same as that of the head of any commercial may bug or spy with authority on other members of organisation. I accept that the government believes it the Police Force, and they do not like it. Now and is and is unable to distinguish between them, but it again these activities might be carried out with a is simply not true. level of enthusiasm and conviction and the unit might get it wrong - as occurred in Queensland. Mr E. R. Smith interjected. Internal investigation units undertake undercover work, surveillance of other police officers, listen in Mr KENNAN - I can understand the on conversations, and pick up other material. I refer honourable member for Glen Waverley getting to the report of the Deputy Ombudsman (Police upset about this. He is right to get upset because he Complaints) report into allegations that were now recognises what he has been sucked into and is fostered by the Minister. It took 1500 pages to embarrassed about it. The Bill should not proceed. indicate the way some of these things can go wrong. The SPEAKER - Order! The time allotted for the A police officer may honestly believe the material second-reading stage of the Bill has expired. put to him or her and may act on it, but it may be incorrect. That is a dangerous position, and that is As I am of the opinion that the second reading of why these matters are best in the hands of a board this Bill is required to be passed by an absolute headed by a member of the judiciary, as is the majority and as there is not an absolute majority of position currently. the House present, I ask the Clerk to ring the bells.

The real problem with this is that the chief Bells rung. commissioner can authorise a number of people to inquire into matters and determine charges. The Bill Required number of members having assembled does not provide what we have had hitherto, a truly in Chamber: independent Police Force made up of individuals who have taken an oath to uphold the law, but House divided on motion: rather a Police Force in the image of one or a handful ADJOURNMENT

1708 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Ayes, 59 ADJOURNMENT Ashley,Mr Madellan, Mr Bildstien, Mr McNamara, Mr Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr Employment) - I move: Clark,Mr Napthine, Or Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr That the House do now adjourn. Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr Oavis, Mr (Teller) Perton,Mr School principals Dean,Mr Pescott, Mr Doyle,Mr Peulich,Mrs Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - I Elder, Mr Phillips,Mr direct to the attention of the Minister for Education Elliott, Mrs Plowman, Mr A.F. censorship in schools. Last night the Minister for Finn,Mr Reynolds, Mr Education appeared to make the major concession Gude,Mr Richardson, Mr that school principals were being censored. It was Hayward,Mr Rowe,Mr interesting to listen to what the Minister said, after I Heffernan, Mr Ryan,Mr sought to elicit the truth from him, when he told the Henderson, Mrs (Teller) Smith, Mr E.R. House that on a number of occasions principals who Honeywood, Mr Smith,MrI.W. have done something the department does not like Hyams,Mr Spry,Mr have been collected by car and taken to head office Jasper, Mr Steggall, Mr for censoring. Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr John, Mr Tanner,Mr As I said last night, there is something Kennett, Mr Tehan,Mrs extraordinarily Stalinist about that approach. It has Kilgour, Mr Thompson, Mr happened in a number of areas. Leigh, Mr Traynor,Mr Lupton, Mr Treasure, Mr Mr Elder - Tell us where they are. McArthur, Mr Turner,Mr McGiII,Mrs Wade,Mrs Mr KENNAN -It is interesting that the McGrath, Mr J.F. Weideman, Mr honourable member for Ripon seems to disagree. He McGrath, Mr W.O. Wells,Mr may wish to read page 6S of yesterday's Daily McLellan, Mr Hansard, where the Minister is reported as saying:

Noes, 24 Principals are not censored when they speak on Andrianopoulos, Mr Loney, Mr educational matters, but they should not exploit their Baker, Mr Marple,Ms position for political purposes. Only a small number of Batchelor, Mr Micallef, Mr principals actually cross that line. Cote, Mr Mildenhall, Mr (Teller) Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr (Teller) The opposition wants the Minister to say how the Dollis, Mr Sandon, Mr censorship takes place. Garbutt, Mrs Seitz,Mr Haenneyer, Mr Sercombe, Mr Mr Elder interjected. Hamilton,Mr Sheehan,Mr Kennan, Mr Thomson,Mr Mr KENNAN -It should be noted that the Kirner,Ms Thwaites, Mr honourable member for Ripon made only one Leighton, Mr Vaughan,Or speech in this House during 1992.

Motion agreed to by absolute majority. Mr Elder - Name them!

Read second time; by leave, proceeded to third Mr KENNAN - Yes, I can name the number of reading. speeches he made in the House in 1992 - one!

Third reading Mr Elder interjected.

Motion agreed to by absolute majority. The SPEAKER - Order! I caution the honourable member for Ripon. He said, ''Name Read third time. ADJOURNMENT

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1709 them" - and that is exactly what I will do to him if Chief Superintendent Balloch said he was he continues in that vein. "disappointed" that plans for the new Chelsea and Mordialloc police stations "had disappeared into the Mr KENNAN - The atmosphere of fear is such background" since the election of the Kennett that people are scared to speak. That is the evil of it, government. as was so clearly exemplified by the honourable member for Ripon. The fact is they are scared to I point out to the learned QC, the honourable speak and they do not want to be named. member for Broadmeadows, that section 95 of the Constitution Act states: As reported at page 65 of yesterday's Daily Hansard - perhaps he should read the extract 95. Officers in the public service not to take part in and consider his answers more carefully in future - political affairs the Minister replied to me by saying: (1) A person employed in any capacity (whether permanently or temporarily) in the service of the Principals are not censored when they speak on State of Victoria shall not- educational matters, but ... (a) publicly comment upon the administration He quite clearly stated that if principals speak out on of any deparbnent of the State of Victoria; matters that he does not regard as being educational, Section 95(2) states that a person can be fined up to he will send for them. The cars will come! We need $100 or be dismissed. Police officers who have a to hear about the program -- responsibility to enforce the law should not deliberately telephone local newspapers to complain The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable about actions of politicians or criticise the policies of member's time has expired. government about the siting of police stations or Police stations whether they should be 24-hour police stations. Police officers are sworn to uphold the laws of the Mr LEIGH (Mordialloc) - I direct a matter to the State on behalf of the community. I call on the attention of the Minister for Police and Emergency Minister for Police and Emergency Services to take Services. I invite that learned QC, the honourable up the matter with the Chief Commissioner of Police member for Broadmeadows, to listen because it to see what action he proposes to take against the concerns legislation with which his government was chief superintendents involved. I am well aware of involved and applies to the principles he has just their close association with the former Minister for been speaking about! Police and Emergency Services, the honourable member for Carrum, and I understand their concern In one of my local newspapers two police officers, in wanting to assist him. I have made no allegations former associates of the honourable member for against them, but I am fascinated why they would Carrum, the former Minister for Police and interfere in this debate. Emergency Services, have been quoted as speaking out in support of the former Minister about Women and sexual violence allegations I made in this House some time ago. I refer to an article in the Mordialloc Chelsea News Ms KIRNER (Williamstown) - I raise a matter of which reports two police officers as having said: great concern with the Attorney-General and Minister for Women's Affairs. In doing so, I Both officers said Mr Sandon had not sought to congratulate the Minister on her initial criticism of "pressure" police over the sighting of Chelsea's new Judge Bland's extraordinary attitude to women and police station. sexual violence as revealed in his gratuitous comments in a rape case in which the accused One of the two officers is then reported as having pleaded guilty. said: The attitude behind the judge's comments, as ... he was unaware of any "political influences". distinct from the verdict. on which I do not comment, have infuriated women and men who are It is either one or the other. The newspaper further trying to improve attitudes towards women in our reports: society. ADJOURNMENT

1710 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

In his comments, more reminiscent of an Oklahoma because the transport system in that area has not backwoods scene, he actually abuses the high improved one bit but has gone backward - the standards expected of our judiciary. He commented, Minister for Public Transport and I want to change as reported in the Age, that: that bad transport system.

... it does happen, in the common experience of those After much consideration I have come up with an who have been in the law as long as I have anyway, ideal route for the bus servic~ in Tullamarine. The that no often subsequently means yes. Sunbury-Broadmeadows area would be best served by a new bus route which would start at Sunbury, I suggest that he may have been in the law too long. go through Bulla, deviate to Melbourne Airport, go The Age reports that he also said: to Airport West shopping centre along Mickleham Road, through Gladstone Park, Westmeadows and If it had been a consenting matter - Attwood up to Greenvale, back again and then to Broadmeadows. That would be a good service which it was not - because the savings from its implementation could provide public transport on Saturday afternoons and it would have been exactly country style. Sundays, which is something the people in Westmeadows and Gladstone Park particularly have And that, if the accused had that much to drink: never had and have been craving.

... in my opinion, young and all as he is, and vigorous That could begin to break down the feeling of as he is, he would have been incapax. isolation that many of those people feel, particularly mothers and young people who do not have the Perhaps that was the judge's greatest worry; that opportunities to get out. this wonderful rural scene was being upset by the young man's "incapax", whatever that means. I commend that plan to the Minister for Public Maybe it has something to do with contraception! Transport and advise him that as the local member What is the world coming to in the judge's eyes if for Tullamarine I have recently initiated a survey of the best laid plans of mice and men go astray the constituents in Sunbury to find out if they would because a young man might be incapax in the use a Nightrider service. I assure the Minister that haystack! the survey is coming along nicely and that if the trend continues it will be clear that the people of I welcome the comments of the Attorney-General Sunbury overwhelmingly want the Nightrider bus and Minister for Women's Affairs. However, we service. I will forward those results to the Minister must go further than mere comment. I ask the as quickly as possible and hope that the Nightrider Attorney-General: in respect of Federal Minister bus service will be in hand shortly. Rosemary Crowley's statement that she is prepared to give her full backing to the Evatt inquiry and the Werrlbee train service in-service education program for judges, is the Attorney-General now prepared to refer the matter, Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - I direct the as the opposition requested, to either her advisory attention of the Minister for Public Transport to the committee or the Parliamentary Law Reform implications of the continued use of the holiday Committee? train timetable. In particular, I draw his attention to the problems of Mr Ian Dick of Laverton. Mr Dick is Tullamarine bus services a regular user of the Werribee line to commute to his work in the central business district and to return Mr FINN (Tullamarine) - I congratulate the home. He and other users of the Werribee line suffer Minister for Public Transport on the outstanding from the continuation of the highly reduced summer work he has done in his portfolio to date. Not only is timetable that was imposed and has been he up to scratch but he is a damn sight better than maintained since 24 December last year. Scratchy! A person would not have to be a self-appOinted QC to know that the north-western That has brought about a severe reduction in the suburbs of Melbourne have experienced appalling quality of the service which can be measured by the transport problems. After 10 years of the former reduced frequency of trains, by the fact that Labor government failing to manage an area that it Werribee trains are not going through the city loop claimed to represent - it did not do it too well and by the interruption to the long-established ADJOURNMENT

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1711 interconnecting timetables. This has had a severe and Community Services has in place to deal with impact on Mr Dick's travelling patterns. young people in crisis who are likely to enter the juvenile justice system. Until December last year Mr Dick caught the 4.48 p.m. train from Flinders Street that went Child abuse through the loop. Unfortunately that service is no longer available because the holiday timetable is Mrs GARBUTI (Bundoora) - I seek information continuing to operate. Mr Dick finishes work at and specific undertakings from the Minister for 4.45 p.m. and used to catch the train at Museum Community Services regarding his promises that station at 4.52 p.m. on its way through the loop. child protection services will be given adequate Now he must wait unti15.36 p.m. for the direct resources. The Minister made certain promises in his service from Museum station to Werribee, which Ministerial statement and during the debate on the arrives at 6.20 p.m. Children and Young Persons (Further Amendment) Bill. Alternatively, he can catch the 4.53 p.m. St Albans train at Museum station, change platforms and catch I want the Minister to assure the House that his a train to North Melbourne. However, if he did that promises include prOViding adequate resources for he would miss the connecting Werribee train by emergency services that report child abuse and 1 minute, it having left at 4.57 p.m. - the train he investigate reported cases. Do the promises include was on having arrived 1 minute later. Mr Dick says: the family support programs that assist families in crisis? The report Families in Crisis issued by the You would think someone with brains could have Children's Welfare Association of Victoria referred arranged that those services would connect, wouldn't to a six-month waiting list for services and to you? families disintegrating while they are waiting for help. I ask the Minister to examine the problem of the Werribee train not passing through the city loop and I also refer to the Catholic Family Welfare Bureau, to ascertain whether changes can be made to the which through its family support program asked service. exactly the same question: does the Minister's promise include that program and, for example, the Juvenile offender program adolescent community placement program, which puts homeless adolescents into the community Mr ROWE (Cranbourne) - I direct to the where they are cared for? attention of the Minister for Community Services my concern about the plight of juveniles in the I should like to know whether it includes residential community, particularly in the south-eastern growth services for children. I refer to a recent article in the area of Cranbourne, Berwick and Dandenong. Age that mentioned proposed budget cuts to the Young people may commit minor misdemeanours Richmond Community Care, Orana Family Services, that necessitate their being caught up in the juvenile a Carlton emergency respite accommodation service court system. A way should be found to ensure that and St Joseph's Homes for Children in Flemington, those young people are spared the arduous all of which offer direct care to children. I ask the experience of attending the juvenile court with the Minister whether those sorts of services are included possibility of being found guilty and serving in his promise to support child protection services. sentences at juvenile detention centres, which would expose them to persons of unsavoury character who Child-care services could induce them into lives of crime. Mrs HENDERSON (Geelong) - I direct to the If an appropriate system were developed, the attention of the Minister for Community Services the pressure would be taken from the court system and issue many people in my electorate who have young valuable police time would be spent in attending to families continually raise -child-care. Families have more serious matters. Youth problems in a difficult task juggling the roles of parenting and Dandenong, Berwick and Cranbourne have been working. Many have real conflicts between the increasing for some time. Although the demands of work, child rearing and the prOvision of non-government organisations in the area have been a balanced family life, not to mention the doing their best to provide services, I ask the opportunity for parents to have time for socialising Minister what programs the Department of Health and outside interests. ADJOURNMENT

1712 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Increasing numbers of women want to return to the Ms MARPLE (Altona) - Thank you, Mr Speaker, work force and are looking for flexible working I will take note of that. I have received several arrangements such as part-time work or job sharing. complaints concerning train timetabling. Although More and more women are returning to study in the there is no formal timetable we still have our hope that they can re-enter the work force. With the 20-minute train service, and I hope it will continue. increase in one-parent families - often the parent The complaints I have received concern buses not left to care for the family is the woman - women meeting trains. Buses from Altona Meadows do not need to retrain so that they can return to the work meet trains at Altona railway station because no force and provide a secure economic environment allowance is made in setting timetables for the fact for their children. They certainly require secure that buses must stop en route. A rail journey from child-minding facilities. Altona Meadows to Flinders Street station takes 90 minutes, whereas the same trip takes 20 to Child-care is a major concern for families. It becomes 30 minutes by car. the focal point in making a decision about returning to work or study. Other women choose to stay at I ask the Minister to advise what the government home and have a full-time parenting role. They need will do to correct the lack of coordination between relief from that role and need opportunities for adult bus and train services to ensure that public transport interaction. I ask the Minister to advise what the can deliver a service that does not leave passengers government is doing to support these families and stranded. the options that can be provided to resolve these conflicts. Regional Veterinary Laboratory, Bairnsdale Train timetables Mr TREASURE (Gippsland East) - I ask the Ms MARPLE (Altona) - On this bright morning Minister for Agriculture to provide information I raise a matter with the Minister for Public about the future of the Regional Veterinary Transport. Before I do that I should like to report to Laboratory at Bairnsdale, which is of great value to city people interested in agricultural matters that people involved in agriculture in that area. The because of the action taken by the Federal Minister facility was opened in 1976 and has since serviced for Primary Industries and Energy, Simon Crean, the agricultural industry in an area stretching from last week wool prices are now on a nice, steady rise Dandenong to the New South Wales border. especially in the fine wool area. I hope that continues. Staff of the Regional Veterinary Laboratory have authored or co-authored approximately 120 articles I have received several complaints in my electorate that have been published in scientific journals. The about timetabling. Not only do the trains have no laboratory has also achieved two significant formal timetables -- commercial breakthroughs in agricultural products. One was the development of Footrite, a treatment Mr COOPER (Mornington) - On a point of for footrot in sheep and goats that has been worth order, Mr Speaker, it appears that the honourable millions to the sheep meat and wool industries member for Altona is now raising a second matter throughout Australia. The product is licensed and on the adjournment debate. Standing Orders are sold under its brand name throughout the world clear on this matter. The guidelines on the and brings in royalties to Daratech Pty Ltd which adjournment debate issued by Speaker Coghill state eventually go back to the Department of that only one matter may be raised on the Agriculture. The other product is Res Q, an adjournment debate. The honourable member for electrolyte replacement that is sold in several Altona has raised an agricultural matter and is now countries and is used to treat piglets and calves. seeking to raise a matter relating to transport. I suggest you rule her out of order. The laboratory is also known for the work it has done on Johne's disease, a wasting disease that is The SPEAKER - Order! On the point of order, particularly Significant in dairy herds. The I believe the honourable member for Altona was laboratory has developed a unique diagnostic making a passing reference. I do not uphold the technique. Will the Minister give a commitment on point of order. the future of this important laboratory? ADJOURNMENT

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1713

Youth homelessness council and whether it would encompass youth homelessness. Mr LEIGHTON (Preston) - I direct to the attention of the Minister for Community Services The Youth Accommodation Coalition has listed a correspondence forwarded to him from the Youth range of issues on which it seeks advice from the Accommodation Coalition of Victoria in respect of Minister but as yet has had no response. youth homelessness and the Supported Accommodation Assistance program (SAAP) Responses component of the government's policy, which is a responsibility of his portfolio. Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - The Leader of the Opposition again raised in very The Youth Accommodation Coalition wrote to the melodramatic terms - he must have had a long Minister on 26 April 1993 in reply to the Minister's dinner - comments made by school principals. The letter to the coalition of 5 April, seeking further Leader of the Opposition is desperately attempting advice as to what components of the youth to create an issue where no issue exists. It is a pity homelessness service are SAAP-funded. The that the Leader of the Opposition, especially as he Minister responsible for Youth Affairs did not make was formally the Attorney-General, is not more himself clear on this matter last Friday, particularly familiar with the Victorian Constitution Act. on whether the service was just his vision, whether there was Cabinet approval for the measure or Section 95(1) of the Act, which was in force while the whether there was agreement between the two Labor Party was in office, refers to officers in the Ministers. This is too important an issue to become Public Service not taking part in political affairs. It the subject of a battle between Ministers! states:

I ask the Minister for Community Services to outline A person employed in any capacity (whether what components of the youth homelessness service permanently or temporarily) in the service of the State are SAAP-funded and whether that service has his of Victoria shall not - support. (a) publicly comment upon the administration of any department of the State of Victoria. I also refer to an analysis dated 22 October 1992 forwarded to the Minister for Community Services That is the Victorian Constitution, which the Leader by the Youth Accommodation Coalition. The of the OppOSition as Attorney-General had a coalition analysed the Liberal-National Party responsibility to uphold. coalition Street Kids policy and raised a number of questions. To date no response has been There is no question that school principals are in a forthcoming from the Minister. special position of responsibility. Principals are able to influence the minds of young people under their The Youth Accommodation Coalition raised a care and it is absolutely essential that they do not number of important issues with the Minister, abuse their position of responsibility by becoming including its concern that the use of the term "street involved in political controversy. kids" to describe the policy excludes up to 90 per cent of homeless youth. Youth homelessness is a Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Police and wider issue than just a concern about street kids. The Emergency Services) - The honourable member for Burdekin report makes it clear that many young Mordialloc raised a matter about police stations in people who do not necessarily live on the streets can his area and the administration of the Police Force. be considered homeless. The matter does not relate to me as Minister for Police and Emergency Services. I will refer it to the The Youth Accommodation Coalition also sought Chief Commissioner of Police. clarification from the Minister in respect of the $4.7 million in funding announced by the Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - The Liberal-National Party coalition, $2.7 million of honourable member for Williamstown referred to which is Commonwealth funding and $700 000 of some remarks made by Judge Bland in the Morwell which was supposed to be provided up front. The County Court, as reported in the Age this morning coalition sought advice on whether the $700 000 has and subsequently by other media throughout the been spent. It also sought advice in respect of the day. When I first read the report in the Age I was Minister's announcement about the homelessness horrified by the remarks attributed to the judge. I ADJOURNMENT

1714 ASSEMBLY Thursday. 6 May 1993 found them hard to believe, particularly after the we have no more incidents of this type in Victorian outcry about the remarks made by Justice Bollen of courts. the South Australian Supreme Court and the successful appeal that followed. Mr BROWN (Minister for Public Transport) - My colleague the honourable member for However after making inquiries I understand the Tullamarine put forward a suggestion for the remarks that were read out to the House by the government to consider which he believes will honourable member for Williamstown were made improve the public transport service in his area. A by Judge Bland. It is quite clear that the judge is out number of bus companies in that general region are of touch with community attitudes and that the under contract to the government to provide remarks he made were both wrong and offensive to services. They have proved to be reliable, but my many people in the community, men and women colleague has analysed the routes the buses take and alike. has suggested what he believes would be better routes to service the needs of his constituents. The member described the remarks as gratuitous, and that is accurate. The young man who was The government likes to hear constructive convicted in the case had pleaded guilty. The suggestions like that because it shows the interest a remarks appear to have been unnecessary; they were particular member has not just in his own electorate not addressed to the jury and were made in the but in the public transport system generally. I give course of sentencing the offender. an undertaking that the government will analyse the suggestion of the honourable member for My understanding is that the only appeal that Tullamarine. I will instruct senior officers to meet would be available in this case is an appeal against with the people presently operating the services to the sentence handed down and that that appeal determine whether there is a better way to provide would be successful only if the sentence was them. From discussion with the honourable member manifestly inadequate. My officers have made for Tullamarine it appears that there may be inquiries of the Director of Public Prosecutions and I considerable benefit to his community as a result of am advised that he has considered the case and does the changes he has put forward. not intend to appeal. My understanding is that the Director of Public Prosecutions does not believe the The government is keen to improve the public sentence is manifestly inadequate, and that is of transport system because it suffered under 10 years concern. of neglect by the former Labor government. I am aware of the survey the honourable member has I have f<>Cussed my attention on sentences in sex undertaken in his electorate about the proposal to offence cases. Court sentences imposed for serious implement Nightrider bus services in Melbourne. It crimes of a sexual nature are not adequate, and the is a late-night bus service - after midnight - that government is addressing the problem through a will run in some areas through the night until the Bill currently before the House. Whether the Bill first train service the following morning. We will addresses cases of this type is a matter that will have have public transport 24 hours a day, which is a real to be considered. advancement.

The member for Williamstown referred to a Mr Batchelor interjected. statement by the Federal Minister for Family Services, Rosemary Crowley, about the need for Mr BROWN - Not in all areas. It was never in-service programs for judges and she asked me suggested that it would be in all areas. The shadow whether I supported such services. Considerable Minister cringes about the fact that the government value is to be gained by introducing programs for is doing worthwhile things in public transport. He members of the judiciary directed at bringing their cannot gripe! He is gripin~ but he should not gripe attention to stereotyping and generalising on the about the government's performance in public basis of sex, race, marital or other status. transport. We will deliver services in the early hours of the morning and we believe they will be well Honourable members will be aware that the patronised by Melburnians. Australian Institute of Judicial Administration is working on the issue and is devising appropriate The honourable member for Tullamarine has been programs. The institute has my support, and I trust motivated to the degree of undertaking a survey. He has circulated several thousand forms throughout ADJOURNMENT

Thursday, 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1715 the length and breadth of his electorate and they are The major unions were almost always resistant to already flowing back - I have seen some. There is a change. preparedness and a desire in the community for the service to start as soon as possible, but we will wait Mr Batchelor interjected. until all the forms are returned. The service may begin in the honourable member's electorate; it may Mr BROWN - The honourable member for be that his electorate wants the Nightrider bus Thomastown gave me the opportunity of referring service. I am sure many areas will want it. to the article, and I thank him for it. Perhaps I should dispel the vicious rumour going around the building The honourable member for Thomastown referred that I have been putting him up to ask these to changes made earlier this year to the Werribee questions. It reflects poorly on me and it is not true. train service. He wants the service to travel through the loop, and he has even suggested the time frame. The SPEAKER - Order! The Minister knows It is a matter of providing a better public transport that collusion is a serious offence. service taking into account the cost of providing it. The government has made fundamental changes in Mr BROWN -Absolutely. I assure the House recent months that have provided better outcomes that, although it may seem to others that it is not for the Victorian public transport system but at a possible, the matter has been raised without my much lower cost. knowledge or forewarning. The article then refers to how the unions ran the former Labor government: Mr Batchelor interjected. And they always took the view that they could put Mr BROWN - I was not going to raise it, but pressure on transport Ministers in other areas of the there was a snappy article in the Herald Sun today ALP if they didn't get their way. John Cain moved me with the heading, "20 years' snapping". I will not out as transport Minister because of union pressure. use the term because it is unparliamentary, but the article refers to "Snappy Tom" as a former Minister It is not for me to highlight this, but it must be an of the Crown. The article reports some enlightening embarrassment for that mob over there to have to sit comments made by the honourable member, but the and cringe when current newspaper articles are read one that was highlighted and stood out is where the out. former Minister says: Mr Wells - Who wrote the article? U I had had a skerrick of the cooperation from the unions that AIan Brown has had, we would now have a Mr BROWN - One can only assume an avid very efficient public transport system - Liberal supporter wrote the article. He is not well known to me but it is one Barry Donovan. I thought one of my colleagues had played a bit of a trick on me and had a special page printed up Mr Kennett - What does it say about him at the because it seemed impossible to me that that could bottom? have been attributed to the former Minister. When I read on I found that it got even better. The article Mr BROWN - It says: continues: Barry Donovan is a freelance writer and former media Talking with Tom Roper, it was not hard to draw the adviser to the Cain Labor government. obvious comparison between the instant success the Liberal transport Minister Alan Brown had with the It says it all when a former media adviser to the Cain transport unions and the huge problems he, Steve Labor government puts this in print. Crabb and Jim Kennan had in working out positive public transport deals. Ex-Minister Roper did not The coalition government is prepared to cooperate pussyfoot. with unions when they are prepared to act maturely and properly in the community interest, unlike what The article then continues with the comments I the former Labor government did during its 10 years quoted earlier and goes on to report the honourable in office. The former government wanted to make member for Coburg as saying: changes similar to those the government has made. It wanted to save $245 million a year but it failed. I can understand why the honourable member for ADJOURNMENT

1716 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993

Thomastown is embarrassed about that 10-year provided $165 000 for the project, which is jointly period and why he would like to dismiss it from his sponsored by the government and the Victorian memory. Unfortunately he cannot dismiss it or wipe Council of Churches. In fact, it is a real partnership it away as if it did not happen. The changes the between non-government agencies, the churches government has made are for the better. The and the government to try to assist young people changes in timetabling arrangements to meet the and to divert them from becoming involved in the needs of travellers will benefit everyone. juvenile justice system.

In my announcement last Friday I said a small Honourable members will know how expensive it number of the current train services will not run into can be to house people at places like Pentridge Melbourne from rural Victoria in two to three Prison and Turana Youth Training Centre. They will months time. That will give the government the be appreciative of the fact that if we can get to those capacity to examine minor timetable adjustments. I people early we can prevent them from becoming am prepared to consider rescheduling services to involved in a cycle of crime. It is better for their provide an even better service than the excellent quality of life that they be diverted from that path. service the government is now providing. If that includes a better service to Werribee as a result of The outreach project will provide, among other the regard we have for the people out there who things, three youth workers - one at Dandenong for were left for dead by the Labor government over a the Cranbourne district and one for each of the ID-year period, the government will address that as growth corridors of Broadmeadows and Whittlesea. it has done and will continue to do for Tullamarine It will provide experienced officers to work with the and all the areas Labor left for dead, as well as for young people at the coalface - not like the Labor the entire State. Party, which concentrated on a huge bureaucracy. This government will go to the coalface - to the The honourable member for Altona rightly criticised shopping centres, the streets and the railway the former government for services she would have stations. It will help young people in trouble. liked to have had over the past 10 years. She referred to the service the former government put in place That is what the government is on about. It is not and the way buses are supposed to meet the trains interested in maintaining a huge bureaucracy, but often do not. particularly after the former Labor government tripled that bureaucracy in 10 years - from 3000 in It is not of this government's doing because it 1982 to 8500 in 1992! The former government left inherited the system. Some may consider that a Victoria with a legacy of youth homelessness, number of my colleagues are miracle men and unemployment and record housing problems - a women, but we cannot do it all in six months! The shocking social justice failure! opposition ruined it for 10 years and what is in place at the moment is what the former Labor government I appreciate the concern of the honourable member had in place! for Cranbourne and I repeat that today's project launch of assistance in the growth areas is a Yes, I am unhappy in many areas with many things commitment to diverting people from the juvenile about public transport, but they will be fixed, given justice system. some time. The problem the honourable member raised is one of them. Yes, it has been happening for The honourable member for Bundoora referred to the past ten and a half years; yes, the honourable child protection services. The government is member is right to stand up and criticise that in this committed to ensuring that Victoria has the best place. Yes, I will fix it, given more time. child protection services in Australia.

Mr JOHN (Minister for Community Services) - I Mr Micallef interjected. thank the honourable member for Cranbourne for the concern he expressed. He has a great Mr JOHN - The honourable member for commitment to ensuring that young people do not Springvale says, 'What are you doing?" He must be come into contact with the juvenile justice system. asleep and living under a bloody tree!

Today, on behalf of the government, I launched a The SPEAKER - Order! The Minister has used youth outreach project aimed at preventing young an unparliamentary expression that he must people from turning to crime. My department has withdraw. ADJOURNMENT

Thursday. 6 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1717

Mr JOHN - I withdraw. Last week Parliament Youth Affairs to ensure that commonsense policies passed the Children and Young Persons (Further will be implemented to protect homeless children. Amendment) Bill which will introduce mandatory reporting. I am amazed that the honourable member MrW. D. McGRATH (Minister for for Springvale seems to have no knowledge of that. Agriculture) - I assure the honourable member for The government is committed to protecting children Gippsland East that the Regional Veterinary and has promised additional funding of $1.7 million. Laboratory at Bairnsdale is in good shape and that Family support programs are important. the Department of Agriculture intends to keep it operating. The government has instructed regional Honourable members interjecting. veterinary laboratories around Victoria that by 1 July 1994 they must move to achieve full cost Mr JOHN - The government is funding direct recovery on the services they provide. How many care services for people in need, not like the mob people remain at the veterinary laboratories will over there that funded hundreds of bureaucrats. The depend on the client numbers that use the expertise government has consulted widely and is committed provided by those laboratories. to protecting children. A couple of months ago the honourable member for The honourable member for Geelong raised an Gippsland East and I visited the facilities at the important matter about child-care places and Bairnsdale laboratory. I was impressed with the occasional child-care. This year the government has tremendous commitment of its staff to maintaining provided $800 000 for occasional child-care the role and functions of that laboratory. The programs. Parents who care for children at home farming community and private veterinarians also should have the opportunity to undertake activities appreciate the laboratory's services. such as study, recreation, shopping and attending appointments. As brucellosis and tuberculosis are almost completely eradicated, more attention should be Some 247 such organisations are jointly funded by given to a new virus known as Johne's disease, the Commonwealth and State governments, and a which particularly affects dairy cattle. I will ask the further 220 organisations are funded by the State to Dairy Research and Development Corporation to see provide child- care for parents who wish to whether a joint arrangement can be reached between participate in adult education courses. The the dairy industry and the Department of government is proud that families in rural areas Agriculture to undertake a program to look at the have benefited from the availability of those ramifications of the disease and try to eradicate programs. Previously there was no short-term care Johne's disease from cattle herds. for children; that is a disgraceful indictment of the former Labor government. It is also interesting to note the efforts in the Mitchell River Valley to revitalise the vegetable industry, The honourable member for Preston raised the Street which is an important part of the economy of that Kids policy, which was an important policy during community. If a revitalisation occurs - a lot of work the last State election campaign. Funds will be made is being done by the Bairnsdale regional available for that policy, because youth committee - the laboratory's facilities could be homelessness is an important matter. The Minister used in that vegetable program. responsible for Youth Affairs recently outlined his plans in that area. The Department of Agriculture will also provide funding for animal health surveillance programs, Mr Leighton interjected. which will be conducted from and through the Bairnsdale Regional Veterinary Laboratory. The The SPEAKER - Order! The Minister has the government is strongly committed to maintaining same right as any other honourable member to the the laboratory so it can provide its excellent services protection of the Chair. I ask the honourable to the farming community and other clients in the member for Preston to cease interjecting. region.

Mr JOHN --The Commonwealth-State program Motion agreed to. for youth homelessness is an important program. I am working closely with the Minister responsible for House adjourned 2.14 a.m. (Friday). ADJOURNMENT

1718 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 6 May 1993 CORRECTION OF DIVISION LIST

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1719

Friday, 7 May 1993 PAPER

Laid on table by Clerk:

Youth Parole Board and Youth Residential Board­ The SPEAKER (Hon. J. E. Delzoppo) took the chair Report for the year 1991-92. at 10.5 a.m. and read the prayer. APPROPRIATION MESSAGE CORRECTION OF DIVISION LIST Message read recommending appropriation for The SPEAKER - Order! I have to inform the TattersaIl Consultations (Reporting) Bill House that in the division which took place on Thursday, 6 May 1993, on the question that the ABSENCE OF SERJEANT-AT-ARMS Tertiary Education Bill be now read a third time, the tellers for the Ayes omitted to record the honourable The SPEAKER - Order! I have to announce that member for Dromana as having voted in the I have given leave to the Serjeant-at-Arms, division. It has been confirmed with the tellers that Mr Marcus Bromley, to attend a management course the honourable member was present and that the during next week and that I have directed the Clerk number voting for the Ayes should have been 58. of Papers, Mr Mark Roberts, to perform the duties of the Serjeant-at-Arms during that period when The Clerk will make the necessary correction in the Mr Bromley is not in attendance. division list. INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL PETITION ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

The Clerk - I have received the following Second reading petition for presentation to Parliament: Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of Report on review of psychiatric hospitals Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education). and community services Mr SANDON (Carrum) - The opposition To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the opposes the Bill because it believes the Institute of Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: Educational Administration should stay in public ownership. The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the State of Victoria sheweth: Commitments were given to the people of Victoria, and particularly the people of Geelong, but the That psychiatric services in this State should continue legislation does not ensure that those commitments to be improved and that such things as access to will be kept because the outcomes are unsure. The chaplaincy services and pharmaceutical services for Bill gives the Minister for Education extensive outpatients not be limited in any way. That the errors powers and there is no certainty that the made in other countries not be duplicated in this State commitments given by the former Labor as an attempt to economise on service provision. government will be kept. I thank the Minister for allowing me to be briefed by officers of his Your humble petitioners therefore humbly pray that department, but I have not been persuaded by the the House take all necessary steps to ensure that the views expressed to support the Bill. recommendations made in the report named A Review of Psychiatric Hospitals and Community Services by The Institute of Educational Administration (lEA) Mr Maxwell Jackson be opened to close public scrutiny emerged in the 1970s under the then Liberal and debate. government. The then Director-General of Education, Dr Laurie Shears, was the main instigator And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. of the notion of educational administration, which was taken up by the former Premier, the By Mrs Garbutt (109 signatures) Honourable Lindsay Thompson. In 1982 the Labor government announced its support for the Laid on table. INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1720 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993

educational administration centre, and building It was further agreed that the Geelong City Council began in 1983. would manage and maintain the recreational grounds once they were established by the institute. The objective of the lEA was to provide residential Throughout all of the negotiations and debate it was courses on educational management for school clear that the land and its improvements were to administrators and potential administrators. remain public property and that their use was to be Bringing principals together was seen as a valuable for public education. The Honourable Evan Walker, way of building their skills. The idea was popular the then Leader of the Opposition in the Upper then and is still popular today. I should have House, pressed these conditions on the government thought the notion of having a place of excellence of the day and refused to give support to the Bill where principals could be trained and their skills until the then responsible Minister, the Honourable could be enhanced would be supported by all Vasey Houghton, Minister of Lands, agreed to state members of the House. the arrangements publicly and unequivocally in the House, which he did on 5 May 1981. Those It was believed that because good teachers did not arrangements have worked well. They have been necessarily make good administrators they needed adhered to by the institute, the government and the proper training to carry out their increased duties Geelong City Council. and responsibilities. The training provided in the 1970s was done by hiring motels and conference The lEA, which was born in controversy, became venues around Victoria; but those residential accepted as an important part of the Geelong courses were fairly expensive and, more community. Within the educational community the importantly, lacked a coherent Statewide strategy. initial concern of some teachers was that the focus of the lEA was too narrow, given its concentration on In 1980 it was agreed that the education department principals. That has been overcome over time by the should formalise the scheme through the considerable broadening of the operations of the establishment of a statutory authority with land and institute and the personal experiences of many buildings designed to meet the needs of the scheme. teachers who have benefited from the facility. The Thus was born the Institute of Educational involvement of parents in this rich educational Administration. Geelong was chosen as the site resource has done much to cement the pivotal role because it was a major centre for schools and had they now play in the State education system. That is large areas of public space. The concept was also in clear evidence that a community consultative accordance with the policy of the government of the approach benefits all parties. day to encourage decentralisation. Today the lEA is a successful enterprise despite only The two Acts establishing the institute were the 40 per cent of its work being bought by the Institute of Educational Administration Act 1980 Directorate of School Education for the training of and the Geelong Lands Act 1981. The Institute of principals. The rest of the institute's time is spent Educational Administration Act had bipartisan servicing other educational institutions, community support. The Geelong Lands Bill caused problems groups, government departments and private because it was proposed that the new institute companies. About 50 per cent of the training time is should be built on public land that had been spent dealing with groups from the Directorate of reserved for public recreational purposes. Not School Education, but it also plays a public surprisingly there was opposition to the building of educational role in other educational organisations. the institute on public recreational land, but Its clients include TAPE colleges, the State Training eventually agreement was reached because the Board and universities. It is a rich resource for the building was for public education. Use of the land educational community. It has the capacity to do for public education was agreed to on three much more work; but in the current climate of conditions: that all new buildings would be single uncertainty generated by its death sentence, which storey and blend in with the environment; that the was announced by the Minister some months ago, institute would be built on 1.6 hectares leaving the there is an unwillingness on the part of potential balance of 8.9 hectares for public recreational clients to look to the lEA. purposes; and that the institute would spend $250 000 of its grant of $3 million developing The institute is operating efficiently and effectively. facilities for pubic recreation. Over the years grants from governments have gradually declined to a level of $220000 in 1992-93; but that is a grant not for expenses but for services to INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1721 be rendered by the institute to the Directorate of An examination of the level of corporate bookings School Education. That can be contrasted with the illustrates how well the institute was doing. In 1990, grant of $688 000 in 1989-90, which was an operating 1500 training hours were booked with the institute, grant rather than a grant for services to be rendered. in 1991 the figure was 2000 and 1750 hours were booked in 1992. Following the announcement about When considering the costs to government, one can the closure of the institute the number of bookings see how much more effective the lEA has become as fell to 188. That figure did not reflect the normal the grants have been reduced! In 1989-90 the grant pattern or the recession, but was a response to the was $688 000 plus $700 000. In 1990-91 that was uncertainty created by the government; traditional reduced to $520 000; in 1991-92 it was further clients of the institute took their business elsewhere. reduced to $428 000; and as I said, in 1992-93 it was reduced to $220 000. The grants have been cut year The government's actions created an unfavourable after year, but this fine body has met the challenge, climate in which to prepare for the sale of an asset found new clients and balanced the books. It has which should never have been considered for sale. met every challenge governments have made, and in The government's approach has continued and the return it has received thanks from a satisfied client institute has been offered for sale or lease publicly base - and a death sentence from the government. through an advertisement placed in newspapers recently asking for expressions of interest. The The institute has a budget of $1.7 million. It has been advertisement has caused more confusion: covering its recurrent expenditure - or at least it expressions of interest are not limited to individuals had been until the death sentence was announced in or organisations involved in either public education December 1992. The lEA can do better if the or education generally; it contains no closing date; government is prepared to set targets for it and then and it talks of the institute being a going concern hold it accountable for achieving those targets. I and refers to buildings and land but does not refer to would regard that as responsible economic staff. management. Perhaps the matter that most concerns the The government and the Minister's handling of this opposition is that, having made the decision to sell issue must be seen as economic vandalism. The the institute, the Minister has shown himself to be Minister behaved poorly by taking the decision to one of those bad employers who do not consider the sell the lEA without telling the institute or any of its interests of staff as legitimate concerns of employers. staff. In December 1992, without any consultation, The Labor Party opposes the restriction contained in the Minister decided to close the institute. He forgot clause 14 of the Bill - we have opposed that type of to inform the institute of his decision and he forgot restriction in the past and we will continue to about the implications the decision might have for oppose. bookings already made for 1993. Staff were not given any consideration despite the fact that many The opposition knows the government is committed of them are covered by Federal awards that oblige to restricting the rights of employees. It is ironic that their employer to meet certain requirements. in the second-reading speech the Minister should say that the clause 14 restriction is designed to avoid The staff, prospective customers and the Geelong delays and legal proceedings. To suggest that the community were left to read about the proposed right-of-return provisions in the Bill are sufficient closure in the local paper. Since that time the compensation for employees betrays a institute has limped along and circumstances have misunderstanding of the facts. Only three staff changed daily. members have access to a right of return; the remainder of the staff are covered by Federal award. The Minister was forced to revoke the edict on 9 February when the Institute of Educational The government, which seeks to restrict the right of Administration was officially informed that it could employees to a legal remedy, is the same continue functioning but would be sold or leased at government that is spending millions of dollars of some stage in the future. By that time the damage taxpayers' money fighting the democratic right of had been done. The demand for the institute's unions to move to the Federal award jurisdiction. services had plummeted. Corporate bookings, which The view of the government on that issue will not in the first six months of 1992-93 had been running change; there is one rule for the government and at 1336 nights, fell to 188 nights in the second another rule for employees. six months. INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

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A number of other matters in the Bill are causing The government has fed the community a line about uncertainty among staff of the institute. In the the importance of professional development, but the context of this debate I ask the Minister to issue a truth about the government's commitment is clear public assurance to the staff on a number of matters. when one examines the figures. The professional Will the Minister publicly recognise the rights of development budget has fallen from $3.1 million to employees at the institute who are employed under $1.9 million and the lEA has been a major victim of Federal awards? Will the Minister recognise that the that reduction in funding. Federal awards and the entitlements contained therein override the legislation and its restriction on There are good reasons why lEA should continue to compensation? Will the Minister publicly state that operate. Firstly, Victoria still has a State education the Bill confers a guaranteed right of return for system that needs a coordinated and systemic employees of the institute to a position in the Public approach to the major changes that are taking place Service for which those employees are qualified? as never before. The government is promoting major changes iri leadership style and more than ever there There is a concern that the use in clause 7(1) of the is a need for a focus on professional development to words "is entitled to be re-appointed" is different ensure that all potential leaders obtain the training from the words contained in section 15(3) of the they need to perform their functions in schools. Institute of Educational Administration Act "shall be entitled to be re-appointed". A most telling statistic that demonstrates the need for the institute and its coordinated approach to There is a real concern among employees about the leadership is that, as a result of the level at which employees will return to the Public government-induced resignations, more than a Service. Employees may have left the Public Service quarter of all schools in Victoria - 500 out of eight or nine years ago as junior officers and over the 2000 - are now run by acting principals. Those years may have built up skills and gained acting principals need to be trained and to enhance promotion. Section 15(3) of the Act provides that an their skills. That incredible statistic demonstrates the officer shall be entitled to be reappointed at a rate of change that is taking place and the need for a classifica tion: coordinated approach to professional development for school principals. ... as if his service with the Institute ... had been service in the public service or the teaching service ... ". In a time of major change and upheaval acting principals are being called upon to undertake tasks The Bill before the House provides no such that they have not previously been confronted with. assurances. I ask the Minister to give that public They need training for these tasks, and they need it assurance in the House. now. The Institute of Educational Administration is well placed to provide this service, if only the The decision to sell the institute is wrong. It is based Ministry would recognise this. on an ideological commitment to individuality and autonomy which perceives a benefit from an influx There are clear economies of scale in the of cash from sales but which does not take into centralisation of professional development. About account the disadvantages incurred through the 2000 principals need training. It is better that long-term cost of the decision. Teachers, parents and training be handled as a job lot rather than each principals do not want to see the Institute of school having to weigh up the priority of Educational Administration sold. School principals, professional development needs. There can be no who are so important in the government's drive for doubt that the cost of professional development will autonomous schools and a new form of leadership, increase dramatically if it is broken up and fed to the feel so strongly about this issue that at their meeting private sector. last Sunday they unanimously passed a resolution urging the government not to sell the lEA. As usual, The lEA has been able to use private sector once the decision has been put into effect and the patronage to cross-subsidise Department of long-term implications are felt the community will Education training. Without cross-subsidisation be left to pick up the pieces; yet the decision was someone else will have to pick up the tab or the made, as are all decisions currently being made in amount of training will be reduced accordingly. I the education area, without the involvement of fear that the latter will be the case. school communities. INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1723

Training cannot be left to chance. The sale of this staff. It is certainly running at about 50 per cent of fine establishment is a risk that we do not need to capacity in the 19905. take and should not take. It should be recognised that this asset can be turned even more to our The shadow Minister for Education mentioned a advantage. It is valued by school communities - by moment ago that about 40 per cent of lEA services those who use its services - and the government is go to in-service training and professional doing school communities a disservice both in the development of teachers. Expressions of interest way it has handled the matter and in the sale itself. have been called for from institutions or organisations specialising in educational training to The SPEAKER - Order! The statement having take over the lEA. A tertiary institution could be been made under section 85(5)(c) of the Constitution involved. Act, I am of the opinion that the second and third readings of the Bill require to be passed by an The government is withdrawing from the institute absolute majority of the House. because it does not believe it carries out an activity relevant to the Directorate of School Education. Mrs HENDERSON (Geelong) - I am very There are three main reasons for this: the Schools of pleased to have the opportunity to support the the Future program will be self-managing with Institute of Educational Administration (Repeal) Bill. responsibility for arranging its own training The Bill permits the government to withdraw from programs; the institute has been operating at a lower the operations of the lEA. I would like to take a than optimum level of profitability, especially once moment to outline the geographic situation of the costs associated with depreciation and staff - for lEA. example, long service leave and superannuation - are taken into account; and the government has The institute is sited in Eastern Park, which sits high substantial assets deployed at the institute which the above Corio Bay. It is important to point out that the directorate should deploy in a manner more lEA is not the only facility in Eastern Park. The beneficial to schools and students. botanical gardens take up quite a large area; there is a children's play park; the East Geelong Golf Club is Over recent weeks the honourable member for sited in Eastern Park; and abutting the park are the Geelong North has taken the opportunity once again Geelong Gun Club and the Geelong High School. to oppose the government's program publicly. In a A number of the city's sporting and recreational recent article in the Gee/ong Advertiser he said that it pursuits are centred in the park. The bowling club appeared the government was attempting to deprive also abuts the park. Of major importance to the public servants and teachers at the lEA of benefits industrial history of Geelong are the historic lime accrued in their time of service. That is completely pools. Various sporting grounds are used for both untrue. passive and organised sport. When the institute is sold or leased as an ongoing To service all these activities and recreational and concern it is expected that the current staff will educational areas a linkage of roads runs right continue to be required to support its activities. The through Eastern Park. I mention this because some Bill contains provision for former members of the people have the perception that the lEA stands alone public or the Teaching Service now employed at the in Eastern Park. It is supported by a number of other institute to return to their former service at educational, sporting and recreational areas; there is conditions no less than those enjoyed prior to joining quite a large road system through Eastern Park. the institute.

It is certainly my understanding that the lEA is the The shadow Minister also mentioned Federal only institute owned by government that provides awards. I put on record that the Bill does not direct services to its employees. The initial concept interfere with any Federal awards, including in the 1970s when the idea was first brought to provisions they contain relating to separation Geelong and supported by the local council was that packages covering other staff at the institute. the institute was to provide professional development and in-service training for teachers. There has been a little publicity in the local press about the change in direction by the government. In the early days of its operation the lEA was Cr Fairbairn from the Geelong City Council, who is certainly running well below its capacity. That was also a councillor at the lEA, has contributed greatly recently confirmed with me by one of the current to the Geelong community, particularly as a youth INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1724 ASSEMBLY Friday,7 May 1993 officer, but unfortunately some of her comments interests. At present the institute is underutilised, have been misrepresented. and if it takes in a wider catchment it will bring further benefits to the Geelong region. Cr Fairbairn asks in an article what would happen if in the future the new owner wanted another The Bill protects the parkland environment and it 2 hectares of land on which to build another will enhance the value of the institute to Geelong. conference room. Quite clearly the Bill addresses the The people of Geelong are proud of the institute councillor's concerns. The Bill ensures that the but-- parkland enjoyed by the population of Geelong - I have just outlined the sorts of activities that take Ms Kimer interjected. place in that parkland -will be unaffected by the sale or lease of the institute. Only that portion of the Mrs HENDERSON - The honourable member land occupied by the institute, a total of 1.6 hectares, for Williamstown has said by interjection that the will be removed from the Crown reservation and people of Geelong do not want the institute to be invested in the Minister as freehold land. The Crown sold. Representations have been made by the reservation is specifically for the purpose of the teaching fraternity and principals of educational institute. institutions, but Geelong has a wider catchment than that. People have said to me that the sale of the Cr Fairbairn also commented that in her opinion institute is a good commercial proposition and that more parkland will have to be annexed to provide education in the Geelong region will benefit. As better road access. A number of roads lead through happened when Deakin University moved to its city the park to the institute and to East Geelong Golf campus at the restored wool store,the lEA building Club, the botanical gardens, sporting areas and the will become an important and integral part of bowling club. The Bill will provide for a proper delivering education to the region. The institute survey to be undertaken of the roads leading into must reach beyond the Geelong region and attract the institute site, and the Minister will be able to people from all over the State. With the problems request the Governor in Council to proclaim the Geelong has had over the past six years the Bill will roads shown under the survey as roads under the be beneficial to the area. Land Act 1958. The Schools of the Future program developed by the These roads already exist throughout the parkland. government has been incredibly well received. Two It is important for members of the House who do not schools in my electorate are part of the Schools of the know the area to understand this. There is certainly Future pilot program and they are delighted and no proposal that new roads be put through the excited, as is the parent body, about that. parklands; the roads are already in existence. The Professional development will obviously be measure merely serves to proclaim the roads. It important, and under the Schools of the Future ensures that the institute will always enjoy vehicular program schools will have an opportunity of access through the parkways. developing their own programs for professional training and in-servicing. They will be able to choose The shadow Minister for Education mentioned that the setting for the running of those programs. there are flow-on benefits to the Geelong community, and I certainly do not deny that. The Under the Bill schools will still have the opportunity local hot bread shop contacted me and told me that to purchase space, time, training and education from it did a fair amount of business with the institute, as the lEA, and the Directorate of School Education did the local butcher. will continue to ensure that schools have access to the institute. The institute has been utilised through the 1970s and 1980s; it will continue to be utilised. It is running at The shadow Minister for Education said the 50 per cent of capacity. With a change of ownership opposition opposes the Bill. That is a short-sighted and good commercial operations, the Geelong view. The opposition is not prepared to move community can only benefit from flow-on services to forward in its education philosophy; it is not the community. prepared to give people a choice.

The Bill will facilitate the sale or lease of the Institute The shadow Minister said that the lEA is a rich of Educational Administration to an outside resource for Geelong that could do better, and I organisation with a wider catchment of educational agree with him on both points. Under a new owner INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1725 the institute will do better and it will grow in community when it was first proposed. Some of the strength and richness. It will continue under a new reasons for that lack of enthusiasm were referred to owner and it will continue to benefit Geelong. Most by the honourable member for Geelong. The importantly, it will attract a wider catchment. Geelong High School and its inexorable alienation of parts of Eastern Park over the years were very much I support the Bill because it will do a number of in the minds of people when the lEA site was things for the Geelong community. It offers teachers, proposed. The matter was a serious issue in the principals and educationalists the opportunity to use community. the institute for further training and education and creates further employment opportunities. If the Eastern Park was not the only site proposed in the institute is running at only 50 per cent of its Geelong area for the establishment of the institute; optimum level, obviously staffing levels reflect that. another site proposed was Deakin University. If the institute can increase its level of performance However, in the end it came down to the Eastern and its practical capacity, employment opportunities Park site, which is an important area to Geelong. I for Geelong will increase. A number of the staff of suggest that our forefathers probably had far more the institute are involved in hospitality services. vision about the use of public land than we do. The Young people working in the food and beverage site was previously occupied by the Corio oval and industries will benefit from more people using the the so-called friendly societies ovals. facility. More opportunities will exist for them to get part-time work and arrange job sharing, which is Some of the older members of Parliament may important for young people and women who are remember that Corio oval was the home of the trying to juggle work and families. Geelong Football Club before it moved to Kardinia Park. The Institute of Educational Administration I congratulate the Minister for taking the stand he stands on that land. Prior to the land being used for has, and I commend the Bill to the House. the institute it was used by and for the people of Geelong. Mr LONEY (Geelong North) -I do not enter this debate with the same pleasure as the honourable When the institute was proposed there was member for Geelong. This is a sad day for the considerable debate in the Geelong community and Geelong community and the education community. in Parliament. Approval for the site was given on An alienation of this land in the way that has been three conditions: firstly, that the buildings must not proposed by the Bill is something about which the occupy more than 1.6 hectares; secondly, that no Geelong community is rightly concerned. Regardless building should be above one storey; and thirdly, of the comments of the honourable member for that some of the money from the original grant Geelong, nothing in the Bill protects the land or the should be used to establish recreational facilities buildings for use as an educational body. There are around the institute for the benefit of the people of no guarantees. I do not think it is too far out of order Geelong. When the conditions were accepted, most to suggest that if the highest bidder for the Institute of the other objections to the siting of the lEA were of Educational Administration is a glorified fish and withdrawn. The Hansard report of the debate in the chip shop, then that is what it will be sold as. Legislative Council shows that those conditions were legislated for and that the siting of the lEA was Mr Paterson - That is not true! contingent upon the land always remaining in public ownership. However, the Bill has changed Mr LONEY - Put it in the Bill! that.

The history of the institute is worth considering. As The buildings are located on the 1.6 hectares, but has been pointed out by the two previous speakers, reference has also been made to a smaller extra area the land is situated in the Eastern Park area of for roads. As I understand it, the roads being Geelong, an area well known to me since childhood referred to are not the access roads but those around because I lived within 200 metres of it. I have used the buildings that allow access for deliveries. They the area and some of the facilities about which the will be part of the survey, which will inevitably honourable member for Geelong spoke, including expand the area to a little more than 1.6 hectares. the Geelong High School. There is iogic in that because it would not be practical to have an isolated site with a road which I recall that the establishment of the lEA was not met went to the front gate but which did not go any with widespread enthusiasm by the Geelong further. Of course the survey must be completed, INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1726 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 but as a result the area of land will be larger than 1.6 instance, when there has been no consultation with hectares. the community and the result will be poor.

The Geelong community is still concerned about the The government's case hinges on the finances of the issue. The Geelong City Council is opposed to the lEA. From the time the institute was established no Bill and has made that clear in letters to the Minister. Minister has told the lEA that it must become It is interesting that the advice of the Geelong City self-funding. One would have thought that the first Council and its Mayor, Councillor Frank De Stefano, approach would have been for the Minister to go to was taken on the council amalgamations but not on the director and the council and say, '1 am not the institute. The council has taken a completely happy with your financial performance. You must different approach to that of the Minister. The City address it and you must make an attempt to become of Geelong wrote to the Minister on 7 April. Their fully funding". That did not occur. The institute was letter says: not given that opportunity; instead it was put up for sale. However, it is worth noting that over the past Council was closely involved in the original decision to four financial years from 1989-90 the lEA has locate the institute in Eastern Park and agreed to this on experienced a major turnaround. Government the basis the project would continue to provide a grants and income from government courses have service to the training of educators and the facility decreased from $800 000 to approximately $290 000 would remain in public ownership. in the current year, a drop of more than $500 000. It has doubled its revenue in that period from $800 000 Upon the passing of legislation creating the institute to $1.6 million. It has made considerable advances in and the subsequent reservation and zoning of land of both those areas and it should be given an some 1.6 hectares in Eastern Park, council's view has opportunity to improve even further. always been that the site and development must remain in public ownership. It supported the project on The Ministry also created problems for the lEA in this basis. two ways. Firstly, the lEA has had cash-flow problems because of the Ministry's slow payment of Eastern Park is a permanent reservation of Crown land accounts. That cannot be attributed only to this of special significance and council has always regarded Ministry because historically government it to be so since its designation in the 19th century. departments have been slow payers. Often the Ministry's payment of accounts is well over 90 days, Any proposal to place this land in private ownership is which would not be tolerated from private clients. not only contrary to legislation and the Crown land Secondly, the Ministry is not required to pay a reservation but is also contrary to the present zoning of deposit or a fee for the cancellation of government the site pursuant to the Geelong Regional Planning bookings, as is the case with private sector clients. It Scheme and, of course, to the spirit of the council's could be that in its dealings with the institute the consent in the first place. Ministry has wanted it to act more like a private sector organisation, but it has not itself adopted a Councillors were unanimous in reaffirming their policy private sector approach in the way it has made on this matter and requested that they be consulted bookings and not yet paid for them. The Ministry should any change to the reservation, zoning, has also heavily cut professional development ownership or use of the site be contemplated. courses since October last year. That has resulted in the cancellation of 900 days of bookings and a loss of Other bodies have also written to the Minister $80 000 to $90 000, which has had a considerable opposing the Bill; and others have also contacted me impact on the institute's funding and cash flow. about the matter. A number of people who have attended courses run by the lEA have written letters Earlier, the shadow Minister spoke about the in support of the institute., but I shall not read situation of the staff, which is a particular concern of through those. mine. It was also raised in passing by the honourable member for Geelong. That shows the two different approaches that have been taken to the lEA -firstly, in the original Clause 7 of the Bill and section 15(3) of the principal decision to establish it, when there was widespread Act, which provide the right of return of staff to the consultation with the Geelong community and a public sector or Teaching Service, are meant to be good result was achieved; and secondly, in this similar, but certain words have been omitted from the end of clause 7. I ask the Minister to advise the INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1727

House why those words have been omitted. Will he Mr SPRY (Bellarine) -In my contribution I shall assure the House that the clause will not deny refer to the origins of the Institute of Educational members of staff their right to return to the public Administration (lEA) in 1976 and to the debate in sector? If he fails to respond at the end of the the Lower House when the Bill was introduced by second-reading debate, I will raise the issue again in the then Assistant Minister of Education, Mr Lacy. Committee. On page 3016 of Hansard of 19 November 1980 he is recorded as having said: The Geelong community expressed concern that the Bill does not protect the public ownership of the ... the government decided in 1976 to establish an land. Despite the government's promises, the Bill Institute of Educational Administration with the does not guarantee that the government will protect purpose of providing administrative training for the educational use of the land. That is important principals and potential principals both of government not only for the Geelong community but also for the and non-government schools in Victoria. educational community. The courses provided by the institute are important to the people in the On page 3018 he said: Geelong region and to those from other places in Victoria, Australia and overseas. The lEA is a The provisions of the statute are such that expenditure well-respected institution that runs courses in associated with the conduct of the institute will not educational leadership and management. It is even increase and that the nature and character of the more important now that the Minister is introducing institute's existing role remains unchanged. a new concept for the management of our schools. It is the responsibility of the Department of Education Despite the lousy economic hand that was dealt to to ensure that appropriate courses are provided to the government by the late, unlamented Labor the people it is asking to go down a new education administration, the coalition government is management path in this State. Unfortunately the determined to deliver the goods, especially in Bill does not guarantee that. providing education to young Victorians. We have been operating under dreadful constraints, but we The government talks about the possibility of selling are determined to get on with the job and do what the lEA to another institution that could pick up we were asked to do at the 3 October 1992 election. those functions, but the Bill provides no guarantee that that will occur. It may be appropriate and a way Regrettably, the circumstances that Mr Lacy out for the Geelong community if the lEA were sold mentioned in his speech have changed, particularly to Deakin University, but there is no guarantee that the last two issues that had to be addressed in that will be done. No-one has said that if Deakin relation to the statute of the lEA. I refer the House to University is a bidder it will be given priority or the executive summary of the Victorian Commission preference in order to keep the lEA in Geelong. of Audit that was tabled by the Premier yesterday outlining Victoria's financial position because the Mr Spry - Nor should it be! Bill must be considered in that context. Volume 1 of the report, which refers to the whole-of-government Mr LONEY - The honourable member for perspectives, states: Bellarine is correct only because this is not an educational decision; it is a straight-out commercial At the end of the 1991-92 financial year, the Victorian decision. The land will go to the highest bidder, government had liabilities totalling $69.8 billion, an regardless of use, as confirmed by the honourable amount equivalent to apprOximately $47000 for every member in his interjection. The Minister must household in the State. Of this amount, approximately address the legitimate concerns that have been $28 000 for every household was owed by the "Budget expressed by the Geelong community. The sector" of the Victorian government - that is, by opposition seeks some guarantees. The Minister in departments and other entities which are ultimately his second-reading speech could have referred to funded by the State's taxpayers. covenants on the use of the land if he thought it appropriate, but he has not done so. The Geelong I shall paraphrase the remainder of the executive community has Significant concern about the land. If summary under the heading ''How was this position there is no guarantee from the Minister or reached?". The Victorian government has been amendment to the Bill, I fail to see how the Bill will borrowing to cover the shortfall between spending receive the support of the Geelong community. and revenue for decades. For most of the period since the second world war those borrOWings were INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1728 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 used to finance the provision of assets of lasting gap, thereby introducing a very competitive edge in benefit to the Victorian economy and community, costs and, perhaps more importantly, in quality. such as roads, power stations, dams, schools and hospitals. At the time it was thought sensible to Honourable members will be aware that the borrow for those assets because the Victorian operating losses of the lEA have been quite population and economy were growing strongly profound. Also, the institute has failed to make and interest rates were generally low. provision for maintenance of the buildings and to provide for its superannuation obligations for its During the 19805, however, things began to change. employees. Economic and population growth was slowing - far more so than in the mid-19705 -and interest The government has the vital responsibility of rates were beginning to climb. In addition, an training professionals in this new age concept now increasing proportion of government spending being face~ in its Schools of the Future program. As throughout Australia was being directed towards I said earlier in response to the honourable member recurrent expenses such as wages and salaries and for Carrum, that training must be achieved more so on rather than the creation of long-term assets. effectively, and the costs and outcomes will be determined by the degree of efficiency new Most other governments in Australia had recognised providers can achieve. those changes. By the end of the 1980s the budgets of the Commonwealth, New South Wales and Victoria faces a tremendous challenge in its Schools Queensland governments were in surplus, but the of the Future program. It is imperative that the Victorian Labor government continued to borrow government provide training for administrators - heavily. Victoria did not reduce its spending during principals and head teachers - who will play such a that period, despite a large increase in spending profound part in the objective of the Schools of the before 1985. Instead the Victorian government Future program and to satisfy the individual needs exposed itself to an increasing amount of financial of the professionals - the teachers. risk. For that reason it is essential that the providers must The executive summary document states: be spot-on. The providers of the services to which I have referred must have four main objectives: they By the end of the 1980s ... Victoria's public finances must be flexible, innovative and focused, and, above were highly vulnerable .. . all in this day and age, they must be competitive. That fourth objective is imperative because of That is to put it mildly. It continues: Victoria's economic situation.

Since the 1989-90 financial year Victoria has been Victoria can no longer afford to splash money in all borrowing not just to finance capital expenditures but directions without having a tight rein on how it is also to meet interest payments and other day-to-day being spent. operating expenses. In her excellent contribution, the honourable The executive summary document concludes that member for Geelong made an important point about that policy produced: the benefits of the lEA certainly not being lost to Geelong. I shall not further elaborate on that aspect the opposite of good financial management and has of her contribution to the debate but I reinforce her brought the State to the brink of a debt spiral. comment which contradicts the statement made by the honourable member for Geelong North, who It is against the background of the harsh reality of read from a letter of 7 April from the City of the economic situation in which we find ourselves Geelong; he claimed the council is concerned about that it is necessary for the government to intensively the loss to the Geelong region of the lEA amenity. scrutinise every government enterprise. It is He should bring himself up to date because I am led regrettable that the government can no longer afford to believe that now that it has a fuller understanding to apply its meagre resources to institutes such as of the government's plans for the lEA the council is this. The honourable member for Carrum said he satisfied that the integrity of the facility will be believed services would cease, but that is incorrect. preserved. Other providers to the institute will tender to fill that INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1729

If there is one challenge that everyone in Victoria The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cooped - Order! must face in today's world it is somehow to The honourable member for Williamstown should overcome what is common to most people, namely, return to the Bill and the honourable member for our reluctance to adapt. We are usually tempted to Mordialloc will cease interjecting. stick to the familiar, the everyday and be comfortable. Ms KIRNER - Before I was rudely interrupted, the person I was about to refer to was the former Many petitions about the future of the lEA have Liberal Minister responsible for the education been placed before this House. Only as recently as portfolio, Lindsay Thompson. I was proud to have last Monday one of my colleagues and I discussed served with him to establish the lEA. I was proud to the future of the lEA with Geelong people involved. have served in partnership with Laurie Shears to set If and when the Bill is enacted, I ask those involved up the lEA because at that time, as the honourable with the lEA to be prepared to adapt to meet the member for Geelong correctly said, the government challenge which economic necessity has was moving towards more self-management of unfortunately thrust on all Victorians. I support the schools, particularly through the creation of school Bill. councils.

Ms KIRNER (Williamstown) - I support the In the 1970s it was considered essential to establish a shadow Minister for Education, the honourable body to support teachers, principals and parents to member for Carrum, in his opposition to the Bill, become more effectively involved in education, to and I do so with a sense of deja vu and some understand their roles better, and, basically, to serve emotion. our children better. The establishment of the lEA was very timely. I was pleased to have served in This piece of legislation is one of the most appalling partnership with the Liberal government of the time introduced so far by this government. I say "so far" and to have assisted those in Geelong to try to find because there will be more. Its definition of an appropriate site. "education" is as a contract between buyers and providers. Its definition is not a service to be Earlier I said I had the feeling of deja vu. When I was provided for the community and by the community, involved in choosing what I believed was an as represented by the State. This "private" definition excellent site for the lEA I was edgy about what the of education is why the Kennett government gets its former Minister for Planning in the other place, Evan education decisions wrong and why it will continue Walker, constantly reminded me of -and to get it wrong. something of which I was reminded by the honourable member for Geelong North in his I was very proud to be the parent representative on excellent contribution today - that is, if public land the first Institute of Educational Administration were to be used for the lEA, one day in the future a (lEA) council. Unfortunately, Victoria no longer has government of whatever political persuasion could representatives of parents involved in the say that the land should be flogged off to the private administration of education; Mr Spring is whittling sector. And that is what has happened. them down one by one because they are seen to be too representative. But the lEA land is not the government's land to sell; it belongs to the people of Geelong. It is appalling I was also very proud to have been in that the Liberal members for Geelong have said that partnership -- it is the right thing to do. It is an appalling thing to do! There are no guarantees in the Bill. I would not Mr Leigh interjected. feel so passionately about it if there were a guarantee that it will be sold to an education Ms KIRNER - You weren't around then. institution. But what will really happen is set out carefully in the second-reading speech. I imagine Mr Leigh - I wish I had been. that the second-reading speech has been closely examined by the legal officer of the Department of Ms KIRNER - The person whom I was proud to Education so that it can be sold to the non-education be associated with was a real politician; he knew private sector. I do not blame the honourable about the community. member for Geelong for getting it wrong; she could be excused for thinking that it will be sold to an educational institution and for telling her INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1730 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 constituents it would be because of the wording of than a private institution can give. I say that the second-reading speech, which states: seriously because I believe, as I said in a recent debate, the mission and objectives, and especially Should the institute be sold to an existing educational the role of the principal in the Schools of the Future organisation - possibly a tertiary institution - program, demand an institute of education that can consideration would be given, in consultation with the act as the broker for the development of the local authorities, to offering a Crown grant of the objectives of the Schools of the Future program and freehold of the land occupied by the institute. Should the development of principals and school the institute be sold to an outside training group, communities. consideration would be given to offering the land on the basis of a Crown lease. An honourable member interjected.

It does not say that the institute will be sold to an Ms KIRNER -If the honourable member had educational institute or training group; it says, taken part in the recent debate he would have "should it be sold to". understood that I support the objectives of the Schools of the Future pilot program. I am concerned In his response to the second-reading debate will the about the ideological underpinning which could Minister for Education, who must understand this mean that preoccupation with management might point, assure the House and the people of Geelong cut across good education. If the Minister cannot get and the education community of this State and the money for education, it is a certainty that lack of nation - it is a national institute - that it will be funds will cut across the ability of schools to manage sold to an education institution? If he cannot give their futures. Two of the central missions and that assurance, I ask the impending Minister for objectives of the Schools of the Future program, as Education, the honourable member for Ripon, to described in the preliminary paper released by the give that assurance. Mind you, if he continues Directorate of School Education, are to, firstly: making speeches on education like the one he made 1. encourage the continuing improvement in the quality in a recent debate on the Board of Studies he will of educational programs and practices in Victorian have no hope of ever being a Minister, and the schools to enhance student learning outcomes. mild-mannered Don will continue as the Minister for Education because he would be preferable to the Fancy the Liberal Party using the term "outcomes"! pretender. Secondly: 4. commence immediately a pilot program to develop Mr Richardson - You really know how to do it, administrative arrangements and determine the don't you? phased implementation of Schools of the Future concept over the next three years. Ms KIRNER - I would not like to hurt the honourable member for Ripon because it would take That requires an institute to act as a partner and me a long time to get through his skin; it would be a provider of appropriate development. The waste of my time. honourable member for Geelong spoke about the Schools of the Future program as though it meant This is an important assurance the opposition is that schools would run all the professional level seeking from the Minister for Education. It is the development within the schools and there was no central fear of the education community and of the need for an lEA. Two pages on in the preliminary Geelong community that this important institute paper entitled Schools of the Future the role of the will be sold to the highest bidder, which may not be principal as described is so detailed that he or she an education institution. I predict that in a few years, will have to be the next best thing to God. Pages 10 before the government is thrown out of office -- and 11 of the preliminary paper suggest that an institution like the lEA will be required to act as the Mr Perrin - That will be a long way off! Did you honest broker. Principals will be required to do read the Age editorial today? things such as prepare and implement plans for assessment, report to parents, carry out program Ms KIRNER - We will see about that. Before the evaluation and school review; prepare and end of its three-year term the government will have implement the school's curriculum program; to recreate an education institute that allows it to act prepare and implement the staffing plan for the in partnership with school communities in a way school, including the selection of staff; have regard that gives more direction and support to schools for Statewide policies; negotiate school workplace INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1731 arrangements with teaching staff; establish and going to close it before the end of the year because organise professional development of self and staff the bureaucracy told him it could be closed. As the and undertake performance appraisal and review; shadow Minister carefully pointed out, even though prepare and implement the code of conduct for the institute had moved towards effective recovery students to provide a safe and orderly environment of its recurrent expenditure, its programs began to for staff and students; introduce alternative ways of fall off. improving student learning, and provide a range of educational settings to enable students to pursue, I predict that when the Schools of the Future where appropriate, high quality studies and so on. recommendations are in full flight, public education sponsorship will be needed for the development of That is an impressive list. Unfortunately it all relates principals, parents and teachers to carry out those to the principal rather than the total school recommendations and we will be looking to community and this government is saying that just restructure the institute. as they expand the role of the principal in the school community, there is no longer a need for an Institute Geelong has some very good people who have made of Educational Administration to train principals. marvellous contributions to the institute. On behalf Why? We heard the reasons -- of those involved in government and non-government schools and business and tertiary An honourable member interjected. education, I ask the Minister to give an absolute guarantee in his response to the second-reading Ms KIRNER - The people of Geelong will not debate that the government will continue to fund appreciate the contribution made by the honourable professional development so that schools have a member for Bellarine in supporting the sale of their choice between the public and private sectors. In institute. The reason is carefully stated on page 11 of that way the partnership between parents, teachers, the Schools of the Future preliminary paper, which principals, the department and universities will states: continue.

The principal will be supported by staff with expertise Parts of this legislation are worrying, but none is in business management or will have access to agency more worrying than the way staff will be treated. I support. cannot understand the attitude of the Minister for Education. Personally I have found him to be I hope it is the right agency - appreciative, pleasant and polite, yet in the two debates on education Bills - the Board of Studies Support may be available from staff at the school, staff debate a few days ago was an absolute disgrace - shared with other schools, or people in the private he failed to thank the people who created, were sector on a contracted basis. involved in and served those educational institutions. I certainly hope it was just an oversight. That last phrase is what it is all about. There will not Either he has a bureaucracy that thinks it can apply be an lEA run by the public sector and responSible the jackboot to the people to whom it is responsible to the public sector because that is not included in or he is controlled by the nasty, vindictive, the ideological framework of the government. That anti-public servant attitude of his Premier. function will have to be fulfilled by the private sector on a contractual basis. The Minister should use the second-reading response to thank the people who have contributed The honourable member for Geelong talked about to the work of the lEA. I have not heard any choice. Abolishing the Institute of Educational government speakers thank those people, either. Administration will mean there is no choice. A Perhaps, unlike me, they have no real experience of person who wants to undertake professional the institute. I was involved in its successful development will be obliged to go to a private sector integration, school, community and principal contractual system. Where is the choice in that? development programs. The institute has even created an export industry; it makes money by The lEA was operating well. When I was Minister selling its expertise to people from overseas. for Education I said it would have to meet its recurrent budget. The institute had begun to do so The ultimate irony is that the person who co-wrote until the current Minister for Education, not Schools of the Future, Brian Caldwell, was paid knowing what he was dOing, announced that he was thousands of dollars by the Institute of Educational INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1732 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993

Administration to work as a consultant, to give I should have thought that with the government's lectures and to use its money to effectively develop view of leadership it could have picked up that idea, the program that was eventually presented to the but no, it has been driven by other motives, not the government. I am not being critical of Brian education motive. Caldwell; we have had plenty of arguments and I have worked with him on a number of programs at Mr Spry interjected. the institute. But it is ironic that the person whom the institute used almost as a constant consultant Ms KIRNER - No, you've got it wrong. The co-wrote Schools of the Future and now sits in silence government is driven by its ideology: that a public while the lEA is disbanded. institution like the institute should not be allowed to provide what is essential to good education is very Another person sitting in silence is Laurie Shears. sad. It is the ultimate insult to people who have Those who know Laurie as well as I do know that he worked so hard in the institute. is not inclined to be silent. In fact, his disinclination to be silent created an interesting circumstance when Clause 14 will remove from the few staff who the two Houses had to meet to remove him as the remain at the institute their potential right to head of education. That was objectionable and, as I compensation, and if the measure is passed they will said at the time, was almost an abrogation of his have no right of appeal to the Supreme Court. Why rights. Laurie Shears has been absolutely silent on is this being done? It is said it will avoid delays the lEA sale. The only reason I can imagine for his because of other undertakings made for the sale of silence is that he may be associated with a bid for the the institute. If people want to understand how institute's sale. I will read Or Shears's next Age vindictive and nasty the government can be - I am education letter with great interest, but I am sure it is not the Minister being nasty - they should surprised that he has not come out fighting for "his" look at the effect of clause 14. If the government institute. wanted to send to the great educators in Victoria the clear message that nothing will get in the way of its I know the Minister for Education recognises the commercialism and ideology, it could not have done worth of the lEA. He was briefed by a Geelong better than the provisiOns in clause 14. person who hitched a lift with him one day. He listened generously while she told him of the value I support the shadow Minister in his carefully of the lEA and why he should not sell it. The researched and well-put speech - which was not passenger was one of Victoria's great educators, the nearly as nasty as mine. The questions he asked former principal of the Matthew Binders High carefully and responsibly on the future entitlements School and a member of the lEA council, Doris of the staff must be answered by the Minister. Are Embling. I should have thought the Minister would these people, after their contributions to education, be inspired just a little by Doris's evaluation of the to be returned to the Department of Education at lEA. She made an outstanding contribution and I their current level? Surely at the very least­ thought the Minister might have shown his although they are not entitled to compensation appreciation during his second-reading speech for under the government's appalling measure - their the institute's having been shaped by such effective contributions should be treated as proper women in education. I can understand why contributions of public servants, which improve government members may not have done so; they their re-entry levels into the service. do not know how important the lEA has been. But they could have found out by speaking to Doris I have talked about Gerry Tickell. He was given his Embling or Gerry Tickell, another great educator in start in education by the previous Liberal Australia government. Ted Jackson, the father of Andrew Jackson, who is now the head of the Box Hill College Mrs Henderson interjected. of TA FE, and Tony Delves, who was the head of the Council of Adult Education - the government must Ms KIRNER - Why didn't the honourable keep its hands off that institution - are recognised member for Geelong say so in her speech? She did as excellent educationalists by people from all parts not have to agree with him, but she could have of the political spectrum. They are people who have mentioned him. Gerry Tickell has made the opened up education so that young people can learn interesting comment that if we have to accept the in the way that the honourable member for Malvern sale, perhaps a new proposal for education described in a previous debate: understanding how leadership could be looked at. to learn and to keep on learning. People should INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1733 enjoy learning, have a sense of the breadth of it has had the opportunity of throwing away the learning and a sense that schools are not enclosing ideology that it hung onto for its 10 years in but are institutions that open up the minds of government in Victoria. It now shares the belief held students so that they have a sense of their potential by a former Minister of Education, the Honourable and their future. Ian Cathie, that the Schools of the Future project will be an outstanding success because it will lead the If the Minister dares to treat Gerry Tickell as though way in education. As I said, that program now has he were nothing, the education sector will not the support of the honourable member for forgive him. Williamstown, herself a former Premier. The Schools of the Future program will educate young people to Beryl Wilson, another person who is now at the take up the various challenges in the years ahead. I institute, taught two of my children at Croydon thank the honourable member for her strong and High School. She is a wonderful teacher, who resounding support for that program. dedicated herself to improving the ability of women to be effective teachers and to take senior positions I also support the comments of the honourable in education. She has a great sense of education and members for Geelong and Bellarine, who made has given up a lot for education. Although she is not excellent contributions, unlike the honourable a high-flier in the same sense as Gerry Tickell, she, member for Geelong North, who did not understand like hundreds of teachers throughout the State, has what the Institute of Educational Administration given her adult life to improve education for was about. students, and she asks nothing more than a decent pay and respect for her contribution. If the Minister The sale of the institute has been driven in part by dares to belittle her contribution he will belittle the the council of the board of the institute which, at two whole of the teaching profeSSion, and he will be meetings, decided to offer the institute for sale to remembered for that and for nothing else. commercial interests. I have no doubt the people of Geelong will benefit from the sale. Finally, the Minister is responsible for the most important sector of the State, education, and he has The opposition does not understand that the said so himself. He needs to take a deep breath and institute has never had a monopoly on the look at what is happening to our schools and our profeSSional development of educators. Educators students. We on this side of the House value were told by the former Labor government that if education and would like to work with the they wanted to obtain professional development it government to improve education. The honourable would have to be of the sort the government member for Carrum is one of the best shadow wanted. They would have to attend the institute and Ministers to represent the Labor Party because he is talk to the mates of the Labor Party, who would prepared to work and talk with communities. explain the former government's views on education. The educators in the State school system Mr Perrin - He didn't even know that parents did not want a bar of that; they did not like what were doing maintenance at schools! they were being offered; it did not suit their needs because it was a second-class institution. That is why The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable the institute had an occupancy rate of less than 50 member for Bulleen is out of order. per cent.

Ms KIRNER - That is right, Mr Speaker, the The taxpayers of Victoria and, more importantly, the honourable member is out of order and he is also taxpayers of Geelong are picking up the costs of a wrong. Mr Speaker, it is important, as you know, facility that is not meeting the professional needs of because your family has contributed much to teachers at the local school level. It was a wonderful education, to get education back on an even keel place at which to be brainwashed and told what to where it is a service to people and where people feel do by the previous government. Teachers were told, they are valued for their service. "Sign on the dotted line or you won't become advanced school teachers" - or whatever they Mr ELDER (Ripon) - I congratulate the wanted to become. honourable member for Williamstown on her contribution, in particular her clear, concise and One speaker said Gerry Tickell is a great educator. overwhelming support for the Schools of the Future But he has been telling the parents federation, which program. Now that the Labor Party is in opposition is an arm of the ALP in Victoria, how to thwart the INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1734 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 government's education policy. That is the sort of The sheer hypOCrisy of the previous government is man Gerry Tickell is. That is the man the honourable astounding! Members of the opposition make member for Williamstown was defending - her old mealy-mouthed comments about not selling off mate and buddy. The institute met a professional Crown land but their government had no qualms development need that was not being met anywhere about selling off the State Bank, which had belonged else. But over the years it has outgrown that role and to the people of Victoria for more than 100 years, or educators in Victoria are not using the services it selling off land that was to be used for future provides. educational and community needs. It does not want the institute in Geelong sold off because poor old The front page of yesterday's Herald Sun made it Gerry Tickell might be out of a job. Gerry will have clear that the reason the government has to sell off to start competing in the real world because assets, make the tough decisions and do things that educators in Victoria will now have a choice of are hurting Victorians is because of the legacy left by where they get their professional development the previous government. The debts and liabilities of courses from. They will be able to choose the $70 billion - that is, $50 000 for every Victorian professional group, other organisation or university family - that were incurred by those who occupy that best suits their professional development needs the opposition benches are shown in black and and decide for themselves whether each is good, bad white in the independent audit commission report. or indifferent. If one is bad or indifferent, they may Yet the opposition spouts its hypocrisy about the choose another venue for the next course they need to keep the lEA. undertake.

The government would like to keep everything the That is the way it should be. The government should people of Victoria own. It would like to pave the not be involved in running an institute that is streets with gold, but the trouble is that the people of under-utilised and not well recognised by the Victoria cannot afford it. Victoria has an albatross educational community, when there are so many hanging around its neck, which was placed there by other organisations and institutions that can provide the previous government. the same sorts of training and educational benefits to teachers to enable them to update their skills and The opposition says we should not sell off the lEA. possibly become part of the Schools of the Future The people of Geelong should clearly understand program. that we are selling off the lEA because of the debt the previous government left to the people of There are many schools of management in this State Victoria and the credit charges it put on the from which people can buy time. A first-class never-never, which we, as a responsible institution that comes immediately to mind is the government, are now having to pick up. The Mount Eliza Australian Management College. I previous government put in jeopardy the future of wonder where private schools get their professional many young children, including mine and theirs. development courses from. Obviously they do not The legacy left by the previous government is partly go to the lEA! I wonder where the Penleigh and the reason for selling the lEA. Essendon Grammar School, which the honourable member for Williamstown attended, gets its It is sheer hypocrisy for the opposition to tell the professional development courses from or where the government not to sell off Crown land because it is private schools in the electorate of Carrum get theirs. something that belongs to the people of Victoria. Just I am sure those institutions shop around to get the before this debate commenced I was lucky enough best that is on offer. to talk to my colleague the honourable member for Bulleen, who gave me a list of education land that The problem with the institute in Geelong is that it is the previous government was attempting to sell off. being subsidised by the taxpayers of Victoria even It involved many millions of dollars worth of land, though its occupancy rate is less than 50 per cent. It including: 1 hectare at King and Taunton streets, is not meeting the needs of educators and it is not East Doncaster designated for a secondary school; used sufficiently. I am sure that in putting out 5 hectares in Porter Street, Templestowe for a tenders for the sale of the land the Minister will secondary school; 1 hectare in Smiths Road, consider the needs of the Geelong community and Templestowe for a primary school; 5.8 hectares in the needs of educators throughout Victoria. Pleasant Road, Bulleen for a secondary school; and 9 hectares in Springvale Road, Donvale - and the The people of Geelong have missed out list goes on. economically because the lEA has operated on an INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1735 occupancy rate of less than 50 per cent at the same professional development. The government does not time as most other institutions have been operating consider professional development in those terms. on occupancy rates of between 90 and 100 per cent. The people of Geelong have missed out on the The key to professional development is quality and injection of much needed dollars into their local diversity; it is to provide opportunities for principals community. If the buyer of the institute is willing to and teachers to obtain the professional development carry on the traditions of the institute, schools and they need from a range of options and providers. the education department will be able to book blocks The fact that the Institute of Educational of time - if it meets their needs. If it does not, they Administration has been under-utilised shows that it will not book the time. has not been meeting the needs of most principals and schools. The fact that in the future the lEA will When I was in local government I shopped around not be part of a government organisation will and I sent my staff to profeSSional development enhance the opportunities for choice. Funds courses at many different institutions. I went to the currently tied up in recurrent funding of the institute University of New South Wales Institute of will be made available to schools for increased Management on numerous occasions to get the professional development activities. professional development advice I needed. Eminent educators such as Dr Laurie Shears and others have The government is committed to increasing not condemned the government because they know professional development, leadership and it is making the right decision. They know it will management training opportunities for principals. It look after the institute staff and protect the parkland is not necessary to have the sort of centralised around the institute. They know that in the long system mentioned by the honourable member for term the government will look after the best Carrum; it is more important to provide interests of all Victorians by ensuring that they are opportunities for choice and diversity. Schools, not taxed out of existence because of the legacy of teachers and principals will be able to choose from a debt left by the previous government. range of providers.

I wholeheartedly support the initiatives of the The lEA will be offered for sale as a going concern Minister for Education. I support the previous and will continue as an educational, management speakers from the government side who understand and leadership training organisation. The what education and choice are all about. I commend government expects that the institute will be the Bill to the House. purchased by either an existing educational institution or by a group dedicated to training and Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I education in various forms. The sale of the lEA will thank honourable members for their contributions to attract more people to Geelong because the new the debate. It has been an outstanding debate, and a operator will offer a wider range of courses that will number of major issues were canvassed. allow educators to partake in a range of different types of courses and to meet people engaged in As I did in relation to the Board of Studies Bill and different forms of activity. It will also result in a the staff of the Victorian Curriculum and higher utilisation of the institute's facilities, which in Assessment Board, I take this opportunity - I prefer turn will provide more business for local firms and to do it as part of my personal remarks, rather than employers and more employment in Geelong. in a formalised second-reading speech - of thanking the council, officers and others a t the I make it clear that should the institute be sold to an Institute of Educational Administration for their existing educational organisation, pOSSibly a ternary dedicated work over a number of years. institution, consideration will be given to offering a Crown grant of freehold over the land occupied by The debate revealed a fundamental difference the institute. On the other hand, should the institute between the approach of the Labor Party and the be sold to an outside training group the government approach of the coalition to education and will offer that group a Crown lease. To take up what profeSSional development. That difference was put the honourable member for Williamstown said, into sharp focus by the honourable member for there is no intention of flogging off the land to the Carrum when he talked about a centralised private sector in the way that the former approach to professional development. I wrote government, because of its financial down his words carefully when he talked about the mismanagement, flogged off State Bank Victoria and need for a job lot and economies of scale in INSTITUTE OF EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION (REPEAL) BILL

1736 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 other institutions that were dear to the heart of I asked the Minister at what level in relation to their Victorians. entitlements would members of staff of the institute who came from the public sector return to the public Reference was made to the staff of the institute. As sector? the institute will be sold as a going concern there is a strong possibility that the current staff will continue The Minister will recall that in my address I on at the institute. I believe prospective purchasers mentioned that staff coming to the Institute of would be interested in seeking the assistance of the Educational Administration at junior levels would current staff. In any case, the Bill contains provisions have moved on in their careers as they gained for former members of the Public Service or teaching experience. At what level would they return to the service now employed by the institute to return to public sector? The opposition seeks a guarantee that their former services at conditions no less than those it would be no less than their current position and they enjoyed prior to joining the institute. Periods of level within the lEA. service at the institute would count towards long-service leave entitlements. Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) (By leave) - The normal Public Service arrangements Reference has also been made to staff of the institute would prevail. There is no intention to make any who are employed under Federal awards. The special provision for officers of the Institute of appropriate provisions of any Federal award will Educational Administration. It would be my apply to those staff. The government has every expectation that those officers would go back to a intention and desire to ensure that staff are treated position at least at their current level at the lEA. I with consideration and equity and that their existing assure the honourable member and the House that positions and contributions to the institute are there is no desire whatsoever that those officers be recognised. disadvantaged.

The Bill is a positive move. It has been portrayed by House divided on motion: opposition speakers as affecting education and Geelong in a negative way. The Bill represents a Ayes, 52 positive move for education because a new Ashley, Mr McLellan, Mr organisation will make available to teachers and Bildstien, Mr Mac1ellan, Mr principals in the government and non-government Brown, Mr McNamara, Mr sectors a wider range of choices and opportunities Clark, Mr Maughan, Mr for professional development than are now available Coleman,Mr Napthine, Or and because recurrent funds currently utilised by Cooper, Mr Paterson, Mr the institute will be made available to schools for Oavis, Mr Perrin, Mr professional development. It is important to give Doyle, Mr (Teller) Perton, Mr schools a choice and to provide a wider approach to Elder,Mr Pescott, Mr professional development. Elliott, Mrs Peulich, Mrs Finn, Mr (Teller) PhiJJips, Mr The key to the future for school principals is Gude, Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. leadership. To that end the government is examining Hayward, Mr Richardson, Mr all sorts of opportunities in a range of areas for Heffeman, Mr Rowe,Mr principals to obtain leadership training, including Henderson, Mrs Ryan, Mr advanced management programs at overseas Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr I.W. institutions. It is the dawn of a whole new era. Hyams,Mr Spry, Mr Jasper, Mr Steggall, Mr The effect of the legislation will also be positive for Jenkins, Mr Tanner, Mr Geelong. John, Mr Thompson, Mr Kilgour,Mr Traynor,Mr I commend the Bill to the House. Leigh, Mr Treasure, Mr Lupton, Mr Tumer,Mr Mr SANDON (Carrum) (By leave) - The McArthur, Mr Wade,Mrs Minister did not answer one of the questions I asked. McGiIl,Mrs Weideman, Mr If I can obtain a satisfactory answer to that question McGrath, Mr J.F. Wells, Mr now it will not be necessary to move to a Committee stage and the passage of the Bill will be expedited. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Noes, 23 fee structure and fee waiver provisions. The Bill Andrianopoulos, Mr Loney, Mr deals with major issues that have arisen in the Baker, Mr Marple, Ms operation and administration of the Act. Batchelor, Mr Micallef, Mr Coghill, Or Mildenhall, Mr LOCAL GOVERNMENT Cole, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Cunningham, Mr Sandon, Mr Local government is presently not covered by the Garbutt, Mrs Seitz, Mr Freedom of Information Act. As the level of Haermeyer, Mr (Teller) Sercombe, Mr government that prides itself on being closest to the Hamilton, Mr Thomson,Mr people it is anomalous that Fol does not apply to Kennan, Mr Thwaites, Mr (Teller) local government. In 1989 the Legal and Kimer,Ms Vaughan, Or Constitutional Committee extensively examined the Leighton, Mr position of local government in relation to Fol and recommended that local government be brought Motion agreed to. within the ambit of the Freedom of Information Act. This government understood the need, heeded the Read second time. calls and made a policy commitment that it would introduce Fol to local government. Freedom of The SPEAKER -Order! I declare that the second Information is the cornerstone of accountability, reading has been carried by an absolute majority of efficient administration and community the House. Is leave of the House granted to proceed participation in decision making. to the third reading forthwith? There being no objection, it is so ordered. I put the question: The Bill will apply Fol to local government with modifications to take into account differences in That the Bill be now read a third time. terminology and process. The Bill contains specific provisions setting out the definition of exempt Honourable members interjecting. council documents. The provision is similar to that applying at State level but reflects the fact that a The SPEAKER - Order! As there are some council does not have a Cabinet. The Bill requires voices for the Noes, I ask those members supporting councils to provide a report on the operation of the the Bill to stand in their places. legislation. The existing retrospectivity provision will also apply to councils. Required number of members having risen: The government intends to ensure that local Motion agreed to by absolute majority. government documents are readily available to members of the public, and it will monitor the Fol Read third time. charges made by local councils and exemptions claimed under the closed council meeting powers to FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ensure that councils comply with the spirit of the (AMENDMENT) BILL Freedom of Information Act.

Second reading REPEATED REQUESTS

Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: Existing legislation does not provide adequate protection to agencies from requests for the same That this Bill be now read a second time. document or the same information that are repeatedly lodged by the same applicant without BACKGROUND reasonable grounds. Applicants have used the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act to The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Freedom of harass agencies by making repeated requests for Information Act 1982 to: apply the principles of documentation and amendment of personal records. freedom of information to local government; curb This harassment includes lodging appeals to the unreasonable demands on agency resources; Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AA 1) on identical dovetail the operation of freedom of information matters. with our system of responsible government; introduce administrative efficiencies; and amend the FREEDOM OF INFORMA TION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Agency resources can be severely affected by having authorised officers simplifies procedures. to process those requests. For example, an applicant Responsibility for keeping records up to date falls to submitted a request seeking the identity of a each agency. confidential informant. Access was refused by the agency. Subsequently the applicant lodged more FEES than 15 further requests relating to the same information. The same applicant also lodged six At a time when Victoria faces enormous financial appeals to the AAT seeking the information. The problems as a consequence of the former agency estimates that more than $30 000 has been government's irresponsibility, it is imperative that expended in dealing with those requests. The Bill all areas of government activity - including the permits an agency to refuse to process a repeated processing of Fo! applications - be conducted on as request. Applicants will have a right of appeal to the near a cost-recovery basis as is feasible having AAT. regard to the nature and character of the activity.

VOLUMINOUS REQUESTS The present Fo! fee structure with its $100 ceiling does not allow for anything approaching cost Voluminous requests have caused serious problems recovery, nor does it deter people from making large for the administration of freedom of information scale but not voluminous requests or embarking on since its inception. Evidence given to the Legal and fishing or research expeditions. Removing the Constitutional Committee in its 38th report to $100 ceiling ensures that recoveries will better reflect Parliament suggested that although the number of the true level of costs. Applicants will be forced to voluminous requests was relatively small it reconsider lodging wide and all-embracing requests nevertheless caused severe disruption to agencies. because fees will reflect the workload required to At present there is no provision in the Act to refuse process the request. to process a request on the grounds that it would unreasonably and substantially divert the agency's It is not uncommon for applicants to request access resources. to all documents relating to a specific subject rather than those they actually need simply because cost is The Bill permits agencies to refuse to process a not a consideration. There has also been a tendency request where to do so would unreasonably and for a large number of applicants to lodge Fo! substantially divert the resources of an agency. That requests and not collect the documents or pay the provision is similar to the Commonwealth Freedom charges incurred. Agencies have therefore wasted of Information Act. Applicants will be given the time and money. opportunity to relodge their request in a form that will remove the ground for refusal. There is also a The introduction of an application fee of $20 for all right to complain to the Ombudsman where the applicants will ensure that applicants are genuinely request is refused on those grounds. interested in obtaining and paying for documentation. Agencies can begin to process a Most agencies could produce numerous examples of request with the knowledge that applicants have applicants who abuse the spirit of the Act by making made an initial payment, thereby signalling a settled requests the extent and scope of which unreasonably intention to proceed with the application. The Bill divert their resources. For example, one applicant allows for the application fee to be waived or lodged a request relating to a mining group which reduced in cases of hardship. The application fee is involved over 2000 documents in some 250 files. set at a lower rate than the application fee payable under the Commonwealth Act. REGULA nONS Members of Parliament, applicants acting in the The FoI Authorised Officer Regulations are complex public interest or benefit and applicants obtaining and voluminous and are consequently costly and their personal information will pay only the difficult to administer. More than 900 agencies are application fee and a charge for the reasonable costs covered by FoI, all of which need to have their incurred by an agency in supplying copies of authorised and principal officer listed in the documents. The copying charges must be waived for regulations. In any period of administrative change impecunious applicants seeking access to their it is difficult to keep that list up to date. That creates personal information. the danger that the regulations can frequently be out of date. The Bill's provision relating to principal and FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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DEPOSIT Debate adjourned on motion of Mr COLE (Melbourne). Providing agencies with the discretionary power to require a deposit is also consistent with the Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: Commonwealth Freedom of Information Act. Victoria presently has no requirement for an That the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, 18 May. applicant to pay a deposit prior to a request being processed. That can result in agencies spending Mr COLE (Melbourne) - I move: considerable time processing a request only to find that the applicant does not proceed with it. The Bill That the words and expressions "until Tuesday, allows agencies to collect a substantial deposit from 18 May" be omitted with the view of inserting in place the applicant. Payment of the application fee and the thereof the words and expressions "four weeks". deposit is a strong indicator of an applicant's willingness to proceed with the request. Honourable members interjecting.

CABINET IXX::UMENTS Mr COLE - It must be evident to the government that the Bill makes substantial changes Under accepted principles of Westminster to a number of important rights. If the former Labor government it is vital that the decision-making government had proposed similar changes the processes of Cabinet be able to operate freely and coalition opposition would have opposed them without fear of premature or irresponsible because the changes deny members of Parliament disclosure. In terms of freedom of information that and the community access to important information. means it must be absolutely beyond doubt that any The government is trying to cover-up and to deny Cabinet document exemption will provide complete the community, particularly the opposition, what protection from release of all documents connected the honourable member for Doncaster -- with the deliberations to Cabinet. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr J. F. McGrath) - The Bill makes the important distinction between Order! The honourable member for Melbourne the confidentiality attached to Cabinet documents should contain himself; he should not hurl his and information of a purely statistical, technical or comments across the table. scientific nature. These latter documents will not attract Cabinet exemption unless they disclose the Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - On a point of order, I deliberations of Cabinet. ask that the honourable member for Melbourne be brought back to the question of time. He is now PART IT PUBUCAnON REQUIREMENTS canvassing the contents of the Bill.

All agencies are currently required to publish The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I remind the annually a comprehensive document containing honourable member for Melbourne that the debate information about reports produced, organisational is on the question of time. Although he may feel structures, FoI arrangements and so forth. A great passionate about the issue, I ask him to contain deal of this information is also published by himself and display his usual decorum. agencies in annual reports. This unsatisfactory situation causes an unnecessary and costly Mr COLE (Melbourne) - The honourable duplication of resources. The Bill, which reflects a member for Doncaster should bear in mind that similar provision in the Commonwealth Freedom of even though he knows a lot about the Bill I do not, Information Act, allows agencies to streamline because the opposition has not had an opportunity publishing/reporting requirements by incorporating to consider it. It is an important Bill, which the Part IT publication-statement details into their government is attempting to crunch through with annual reports. The onus of publishing the little debate. The Attorney-General may smile and information will rest with agencies. The information be smug, but the community looks with disdain required under Part IT will still be officially upon a government that tries to cover-up - as she published as part of an agency's statutory annual did when she was shadow Attorney-General. This is reporting obligations and thus still be publicly a bold attempt by the government to cover-up by available. not allowing the opposition the time to adequately consider the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr LEIGH (Mordialloc) - On a point of order, I when in opposition, but now that it is in government also ask that the honourable member for Melbourne it sees the situation differently. be directed to debate the question of time and not to continue to debate the contents of the Bill. I urge the government to allow some time for consultation. It is almost the end of the sessional The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! There is no period and there will be little opportunity to consult doubt that speakers in this Chamber have a on the Bill between now and Tuesday week. The Bill responsibility to ensure their remarks are relevant to makes substantial changes to legislation that was so the matter before the Chair. But when members of flagrantly used, and, dare I say, abused, by the the House raise points of order they should deal coalition when it was in opposition. The issues are accurately with the substance of the matters they serious because they deal with access to the raise. The honourable member for Mordialloc is out bureaucracy and to government. The government is of order. I am satisfied that the honourable member endeavouring to introduce and pass the Bill within for Melbourne is speaking on the question of time. I two weeks without allowing the community an remind honourable members that when they raise opportunity for consultation. points of order they should make a 'fair assessment of what is before the Chair and ensure that their The Bill should lie over until the next sessional points of order are relevant. period. The government does not want the Bill to be discussed by the community because it does not Mr COLE (Melbourne) - Honourable members want to have to suffer its vitriolic response. The on this side of the House would like some time to Attorney-General interjected that I should read the consider the Bill. Many submissions have been made Bill first. That is the whole point. I want the time to to the opposition requesting - without any do that. Proposed section 25A(1)(b) includes the knowledge of what is contained in the Bill but based words: on rumour and innuendo - that they be given -- ... would substantially and unreasonably interfere with Mrs Wade interjected. the performance of the Minister's functions.

Mr CO LE - The honourable member for I could write a book on that. The Attorney-General Melbourne will ignore interjections. would write a short book, because she believes everything would interfere with the Minister's Mr COLE - We heard that the government was functions. It is important to have more than two proposing to introduce the Bill. Once the coalition weeks to consider the Bill. The Attorney-General has parties gained power in both Houses it was suggested that the opposition read the Bill. Not only predictable that they would be totally corrupted by do we want the time to read it, but we want the that power and seek -- whole community to read it. We want the government to do what it always wanted the former Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - I take exception to Labor government to do - to allow sufficient time the words used by the honourable member for for consultation. Melbourne. If the Labor government had taken similar action the The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The coalition parties would have crunched it in the honourable member for Doncaster has taken Upper House. The coalition was given adequate exception to the words expressed by the honourable time to consult on Bills. If the Attorney-General member for Melbourne. Will he withdraw? denies that, she should read the Hansard reports on the Sentencing Bill. If she does so, she will realise Mr COLE - I withdraw. I do not seek to be that the government is applying a double standard. provocative, but it is difficult not to be in the current climate. What the Attorney-General is doing is We know the Premier is behind this. He does not morally wrong. There will not be proper time to want any debate in the community. He does not consider the Bill, which makes major changes to the want to be held accountable. We want the Act - for example, it introduces substantial fees. government to be accountable for the changes and The community should be given the opportunity of we want a reasonable and honest debate. To allow examining it, as should those in the that to occur, the Bill should lie over until the next Communications Law Centre and the media who sessional period. have used the Act in the past. The coalition used it in FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr Kennett interjected. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member for Niddrie has withdrawn. Mr COLE - What happened when the coalition parties got power? It changed them. The smell of the Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - Mr Deputy leather in the Ministerial cars is pretty potent at the Speaker-- moment. Power does corrupt absolutely. If the Labor Party had attempted to do this when in government, Honourable members interjecting. what would the coalition have done? I can just see the Premier sitting at the Cabinet table, saying, 'We Mr PERTON - I am being interrupted by don't want to be subject to Fol like they were. We interjections because -- must change this and do it quickly. Don't give them any time to debate it, bring it in now and it will be Honourable members interjecting. forgotten. No-one will know about it". The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Opposition Mr Kennett interjected. members in the corner should restrain themselves. If they wish to speak on the question of time they will Mr CO LE - The truth always hurts. It is morally be given the call at the appropriate time. The bankrupt not to give the opposition time to consider honourable member for Doncaster has the call and the measure. It is absolutely scandalous to suggest deserves the respect of the House, as other that a Bill dealing with something as important as honourable members will get the respect of the freedom of information should be adjourned only House. until Tuesday week. I urge all members to support my motion. The House should have proper debate, Honourable members interjecting. not the nonsense the government is going on with. I hope the media records what this mob is capable of Mr PERTON - In speaking to the motion for the doing. The jackboots are well and truly on today! adjournment of the debate and his amendment the honourable member for Melbourne used the most Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - Mr Deputy Speaker, extraordinary language. He talked about the stench I shall speak precisely on the question of time. of corruption. The stench of corruption still infects this House as a result of the actions of the former Mr Sercombe interjected. government!

Mr PERTON - I pick up the interjection of the The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! On the Deputy Leader of the OppOSition. question of time.

Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning) - On Honourable members interjecting. a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition used an unparliamentary The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I again expression, and I ask that he withdraw it and remind opposition members that irrespective of apologise. their views, strong or otherwise, on this issue the honourable member on his feet has the protection of The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Minister the Chair and the right to be heard. I ask them to for Planning takes exception to a comment made by respect that right. the Deputy Leader of the OppOSition. Is he prepared to withdraw? Mr PERTON - Honourable members, particularly the honourable member for Melbourne, Mr SERCOMBE (Niddrie) - I understood that have used extraordinarily emotive language. The the request for withdrawal had to come from the honourable member talked about rumours, honourable member who was offended. supposition and wild innuendos floating around town. The wild innuendos and wild allegations were The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Is the created by the Leader of the Opposition. Just this honourable member prepared to withdraw? week in the Age newspaper --

Mr SERCOMBE - If the honourable member for The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! On the Doncaster finds it offensive, I withdraw, but I have question of time. not heard whether he finds it offensive. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr PERTON - Mr Deputy Speaker, I am Constitutional Committee. The honourable member addressing the arguments of the honourable for Melbourne pointed to -- member for Melbourne on why he requires more time. In that sense, I am addressing the question of Mr SEITZ (Keilor) - On a point of order, time. Mr Deputy Speaker, the honourable member for Doncaster is not speaking on the question of time; he The wild allegations made by the Leader of the is debating the Bill. I ask you to bring him back to Opposition were to the effect that the government the question of time. was intending to introduce provisions to take away appeal rights of individuals to the Administrative Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - On the point of Appeals Tribunal and the Supreme Court. The truth order, Mr Deputy Speaker, you allowed the is that those provisions are not in this Bill, but they honourable member for Melbourne some licence in were in a Bill that the Leader of the Opposition developing his arguments to support his introduced into the Upper House in 1985 when he amendment. I am directly answering the accusations was a member of that place. and allegations that he made. The honourable member referred to a jackboot approach. Mr Kennan interjected. Honourable members interjecting. Mr PERTON - My God, if the Leader of the Opposition requires more time to speak on and Mr PERTON - He referred to corruption. By analyse the Bill, he has only to examine the Bill he way of interjection a number of his colleagues used introduced in the other place in 1985. the word ''hypocrite''. If I am to answer the arguments put by the honourable member for The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! On the Melbourne in support of his amendment, I must question of time. directly answer the allegations that he and his colleagues are making against both the government Mr PERTON - On the question of time, and me. Mr Deputy Speaker, let us consider the issues at stake. Proposed legislation providing for Cabinet The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I again exemption and the definition of Cabinet was remind the House that it is a very narrow debate on brought into Parliament in 1985 by the Leader of the the question of time. The honourable member for Opposition. He does not need additional time to Melbourne used an expression that was reiterated analyse those issues. The joint Parliamentary Legal by the honourable member for Doncaster, and the and Constitutional Committee undertook an inquiry honourable member for Melbourne withdrew it into FoI-- upon a request to the Chair from another honourable member. That does not give the Mr Baker interjected. honourable member for Doncaster the right to canvass that matter as part of the debate, because it The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The was found to be unparliamentary. honourable member for Sunshine has been a member of this House long enough to know that Mr PERTON - Mr Deputy Speaker -- that level of interjection does nothing for the conduct of the Chamber. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair will attempt to exercise its powers in a bipartisan Mr PERTON - In 1989 a former committee of and fair manner, but if it is put into a difficult this Parliament, the Legal and Constitutional situation it will have to take harsh measures with Committee, conducted a full investigation of the successive speakers on the question of time. I ask the operation of the freedom of information legislation. honourable member for Doncaster to relate his The Leader of the Opposition, who was then the remarks precisely to the question of time and not Minister responsible for FoI, together with the then test the tolerance of the Chair by trying to embrace Premier put together a submission advocating the issues that make it difficult for the Chair, as reflected elimination of the privileged status of members of by the point of order raised by the honourable Parliament and the rights of the public and member for Keilor. At this point I do not uphold the Parliament on freedom of information. The Bill picks point of order, but I remind the honourable member up the recommendations of the Legal and for Doncaster that he is speaking on the question of time. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1743

Mr PERTON - The Bill enhances and extends has been canvassed by the former Legal and freedom of information in this State. At present Constitutional Committee. Submissions were Victoria's FoI system is the most open and liberal in received by the committee from the Leader of the the country. Opposition and the former Premier, John Cain. They told the committee of their concerns about Fol. The Honourable members interjecting. former Labor government introduced the original legislation into this place; this Bill actually enhances Mr PERTON - The reason for that is that when the operation of the Act. the coalition was in opposition it prevented the Labor Party from introdUCing amendments to the The honourable member for Melbourne does not FoI legislation which would have destroyed it. need four weeks; in fact, he should be capable of debating it forthwith. On the other hand, the By using the words "a jackboot approach" the Attorney-General has suggested that the debate honourable member for Melbourne has implied that resume next Tuesday week. I say to the House, the the Bill somehow narrows the ambit of FoI but it community and to those who are acting in an does not do that; it extends FoI to local government. inconsistent manner with what the former government did about FoI -- On the question of time, the honourable member for Melbourne had the opportunity during the State Honourable members interjecting. election campaign, and he has had the opportunity subsequently, of debating access of the public Mr PERTON - The Leader of the Opposition through FoI to local government. He does not need talks about inconsistency. He will be unable to take four weeks in which to consult local government or part in the debate for the opposition because an the public about whether FoI should apply to local attack by him on this Bill would amount to a government. monumental act of hypocrisy.

The honourable member says he needs four weeks The opposition does not need four weeks. It should to discuss the matter of voluminous requests, but be able to debate the Bill today, if necessary. that provision already exists in the Federal However, the Attorney-General has very reasonably legislation and this amending Bill picks up the proposed that debate resume on Tuesday week, and recommendations of the former Legal and honourable members know that further Constitutional Committee. opportunities for debate will be available when the Bill is in the other place. Why does he need four weeks to consider repetitive requests? The suggestion has been put repeatedly by Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition)-On the Leader of the OppOSition, when in government, the question of time, the reason why the community that such a provision is necessary. Does the and the electorate are entitled to time on this Bill is honourable member need four weeks to discuss because prior to the State election the then that? No, he does not. opposition repeatedly committed itself to the maintenance of open government; and in the decade The honourable member for Melbourne says he in opposition prior to that election, it consistently needs four weeks to discuss the provision regarding supported the Act as it exists. FoI application costs. The Bill will enhance FoI and will protect the privileged status -- I am grateful that the honourable member for Doncaster has reminded the House how vigorously The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The he supported the Act in its present form, as did all honourable member is now canvassing what he honourable members then in opposition. Until today regards are the advantages of the Bill and has they have led the public to believe that they are in strayed from the question of time. His contribution favour of the Act as it exists. Indeed, the address by is not an opportunity to canvass the fundamental His Excellency the Governor in opening this issues of the Bill. Parliament included a strong commitment by the government to accountability and open government. Mr PERTON - I respect your ruling, Mc Deputy Speaker, but I believe I have directly addressed the At no time between December 1982, when Fol came question. The honourable member for Melbourne into force - or at least when it was passed by both says he needs four weeks, but everything in the Bill Houses - and today have the coalition parties in FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

1744 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993

Victoria said they would wind it back. That is the Opposition to put his view, whether they agree precisely what they are doing through this Bill. with him or otherwise. The opportunity will be presented for honourable members to contribute on Mrs Wade - Not so. the question of time and to perhaps dispute those views at the appropriate time. Mr KENNAN - It is interesting that the honourable member for Doncaster is so touchy The level of interjection that the Chamber has just about the various proposals floating around. I now experienced does it no credit and I ask honourable invite the government to table the files containing all members to contain themselves while the Leader of submissions received by the government -- the OppOSition speaks on the question of time.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! On the Mr KENNAN - I know feeding time at the zoo question of time. creates tensions for at least one member!

Mr KENNAN - It is about time. For ten and a The government has introduced the Bill and has half years the community was lulled into a sense of requested that debate be adjourned until next false security by the coalition parties; they said they Tuesday week. It wants debate to occur in the final wanted open government and they consistently week of a sessional period when, unquestionably, it supported the existing FoI legislation. They will be guillotined in this place and passed in consistently opposed any suggestion of amendments perhaps 30, 50, 60 or 70 hours of sittings in the and led the community to the firm belief that after Upper House! they were elected on 3 October they would not touch the Freedom of Information Act. That is If the government were serious about open basically a massive broken promise on a government - and of course this Bill is all about the fundamental issue affecting every Victorian. rights of citizens to know - why did it not introduce it early in this sessional period? Why not Therefore, the opposition needs a longer period let the legislation lie over so that there can be proper before debate is resumed so it can discuss and public exposure and debate? debate the matter with the community. Mr Leigh interjected. The government has come into this Chamber and said, "Despite what we have said for more than Mr KENNAN - The physical resemblance in the 10 years, despite the election commitment, despite case of the honourable member for Mordialloc is the speech of His Excellency the Governor made in overwhelming - no doubt he can hear the animals the other place after the election, and despite all the being fed at the zoo! reaffirmations and beliefs in open government and our support of the Act as it was originally passed by The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of Parliament, we are now doing a somersault". If ever the OppOSition should not be deliberately more time were needed, it is in these circumstances. provocative. It does not help the decorum of the House. This Bill has been deliberately introduced during the dying days of this sessional period. Mr KENNAN - I shall be provocative only when it is necessary, Mr Deputy Speaker! Mr Leigh interjected. The timetable for the introduction and passage of Mr KENNAN - The chimpanzee may have got the Bill has been carefully plotted. This legislation out of his pen but the honourable member for will be a major breach of an election platform. The Doncaster let the cat out of the bag when he said that government wants to limit the time for public the preferred government position was that the Bill discussion because it knows that the provisions of should pass today, that the opposition should be the legislation will be ferociously resisted by many prepared to debate the Bill today. commentators. It has wheeled in this Bill today, on a Friday - it could not even manage to have the Honourable members interjecting. second reading of the Bill yesterday! It has left the introduction of the Bill until today and, by The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Honourable requesting adjournment of debate until Tuesday members should respect the right of the Leader of ABSENCE OF PREMIER

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1745 week, the government will ensure the legislation Minister to be judicious about the amount of time he passes both Houses in perhaps 24 or 48 hours. uses in answering the question.

The government has acted in a most unnecessarily Mr BROWN (Minister for Public Transport) - provocative and calculated manner. It has sought to Certainly, as always, I shall, Mr Speaker. I am rush this through with the minimum possible delighted that the honourable member has asked the exposure. It reminds me of the passage of the Bills question, albeit unexpectedly, because it gives me last Thursday, when the Leader of the House the opportunity of telling the House yet another unfortunately was away, but had the Bills rushed good news story in transport in Victoria. through when the media was not present -- It is well known that the government, unlike the last The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! This may be government, supports the Melbourne tram system. an appropriate time to lower the level of adrenalin We gave an undertaking to preserve it and run it at pressure by adjourning for lunch. its optimum rather than winding it down as the former Labor government was doing. It is well Debate interrupted. known that the former government placed orders for more than $60 million worth of articulated trams Sitting suspended 1 p.m. until 2.4 p.m. with a view to scrapping Melbourne's much loved W-class trams. We are keen to see that heritage ABSENCE OF PREMIER aspect of Victoria's history not only preserved but utilised with a particular emphasis on tourism. The SPEAKER - Order! I inform the House that the Premier will be absent during question time; he We went to the last election with one of the planks in is in another part of the State, and questions for him the transport platform being that we would put in should be directed to the Deputy Premier. place a tram loop in the Melbourne central business district. That was an initiative and undertaking that would cost a lot of money.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE I am delighted to announce today that in tomorrow's newspapers the government will be advertising for contractors to submit tenders for this EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENTS necessary and important undertaking for the future. The value of the undertaking of the city circle tram Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - Will loop will exceed $6 million. It is a good news story the Minister for Industry and Employment inform not only for the government but for Melbumians the House how many of the 1500 or so employees of and tourists. his department have signed individual employment agreements, and whether it is a fact that among For the new loop track will be laid where it does not those who have not signed agreements are the at present exist - I refer to half the length of Spring secretary of the department, Mr George Brouwer, Street. and the deputy secretary, Mr Greg John? The new work that will be put to tender tomorrow Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and will involve the construction of a loop that will Employment) - I do not know the total number of traverse the entire length of Spring Street and go employees who have Signed. I should be happy to down Flinders Street, along Spencer Street, up obtain the information and provide the honourable Latrobe Street and Victoria Parade, and down member with the answer. Nicholson Street back to Spring Street to complete the loop. It will show people from other countries TRAM SYSTEM who now see Melbourne as a great tourist destination that one of the icons in this State will be Mrs ELLIOIT (Mooroolbark) - Will the Minister upgraded and used not only to provide a better for Public Transport inform the House of proposed service for the local people but to give them an improvements to Melbourne's tram system? opportunity to use what will be a tourist tram service like our now world famous heritage trams, The SPEAKER - Order! Before I call the the restaurant trams. Those trams will be painted in Minister for Public Transport I point out that the question is a broad one and I should like the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1746 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 a special heritage colour that will make them stand whether the PTC has run out of money to pay its out. bills.

Honourable members interjecting. Mr BROWN (Minister for Public Transport) - I genuinely and Sincerely thank the honourable Mr BROWN - Actually beige is not looking as member for Thomastown for his question! Not every bad as it used to! I may be encouraged by honourable member would have been in this House suggestions from the opposition about the colour of at 2 a.m. when, during the debate on the motion for the new trams. However, the government will the adjournment of the sitting, I pointed out that the consult the people who count rather than the nasty rumours circulating about my supplying nonentities. When I talk about the people who questions to the shadow Minister were not true. The count, I refer to people from whom we receive more honourable member for Thomastown has asked this than a skerrick of cooperation. I am referring to the question on his own initiative! people who run the system; they are the people with whom the government negotiates. The government The SPEAKER - Order! The Minister will talks to the unions and the wider community about concentrate on his answer. the services that will best meet the needs of Melbumians. To make it a genuine tourist tram, a Mr BROWN - This time last year such a staff member will give a commentary as the tram statement by the accounts officer would have been moves past Melbourne's famous attractions. true. At that time the PTC did not have any money to pay its bills because of the incompetence that was This is yet another good news story for Victorian rife from the top to the bottom of the system. That transport. It is a relief to have finalised the bad news was no more so than in the Minister's office. announcements of last week. Now that savings have been made and initiatives are being implemented, This time last year - and the year before that - the enough money will be freed up over the next three former government made secret funny-money deals years to restore Melbourne's public transport by forming a company called Warana Valley Pty Ltd system, which was decimated by the policies of the to borrow secretly from overseas. former government, to a system of world standard. Bigger and better good news stories will come in the Mr BATCHELOR (Thomas town) - On a point of weeks and months ahead. They will be welcomed by order, Mr Speaker, my question was specifically the entire community, bar the opposition. related to correspondence between the PTC and Grantmore Engineering and the advice to that It is pleasing to hear the people I meet say how good company that the PTC had no money to pay its bills. it is to see a government getting things done rather The opposition wants an assurance from the than saying it will do something and never Minister that the bills will be paid. delivering. They are glad the government is reforming the public transport system instead of The SPEAKER - Order! The Minister has been ruining it. They are glad it does not wreck public giving financial information preparatory to transport but consults and improves its relationship answering the question. I remind the Minister that with unions. his answer must be relevant and short.

PUBLIC TRANSPORT CORPORATION Mr BROWN (Minister for Public Transport) - The honourable member for Thomastown asked me Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - I refer the to comment on whether the PTC had any money to Minister for Public Transport to the correspondence pay its bills. I am leading up to the answer by between the Public Transport Corporation and a referring to the $60 million black hole in transport company called Grantmore Engineering Pty Ltd, that the incoming government inherited. which has been contracted by the PTC to supply ticket boxes at the Elizabeth Street entrance of the Mr Batc:helor -Is it true that you don't have any Flinders Street railway station. I also refer him to the money? answer given by a PTC accounts officer, who, when asked when the company was going to be paid, Mr BROWN - It's not true. If I had not made replied, 'We haven't got any money and I don't any changes, come 30 June this year the black hole know when we will". Will the Minister confirm would have been more than $80 million. If the Labor government had stayed in office, it would have QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1747 spent more than it got this financial year. From the strong endorsement for a number of the key day the coalition assumed office, the PTC has had objectives that the government has identified. To be massive financial problems. The day I walked fair, the opposition should get due credit. When the through the door the PTC was behind by coalition was in opposition it adopted a similar $60 million. Massive financial haemorrhaging had approach by not adopting an automatic knee-jerk occurred in the transport portfolio for one reason: reaction of opposition to a number of key State the incompetence of the former government, of priorities that should have bipartisan support. which the shadow Minister was part and which should have been drummed out of office years ago. The Labor opposition has already signalled that in a number of important respects there is a bipartisan The PTC still has financial problems, but instead of view about objectives. The most important of them the deficit being $80 million by 30 June it will be is illustrated in this morning's press where the reduced to between $10 million and $20 million. shadow Treasurer has written a strong and cogent That is a dramatic turnaround in the finances of the argument - a stance which the coalition took when PTc. By 30 June next year I will have had a full year in opposition and which the Labor Party took when of managing the budget. I will stick to that budget in government - attacking the unacceptable and and deliver to the letter so that the outcome will be irresponsible level of subsidy forced on Victoria in no deficit. favour of what are now the rich States of Australia at the expense of the living standards of Victorian The government is paying its bills; it did not set up a people, the effectiveness of Victoria's economy and secret company in a sleazy secret deal to borrow its ability to attract and retain investment. money from the Deutsche Bank of Germany without reference to the Loan Council. That is what the On behalf of the government I explicitly former government did; it borrowed money secretly acknowledge that the shadow Treasurer has set a from overseas to pay bills after 90 days. Before the high standard in offering bipartisan support. The last State election the former Labor government did government appreciates it. Victoria is better armed not pay its creditors for 120 days. On 1 July last year in seeking to address that imbalance by having the former government wrote cheques for visible, high-profile support. The bipartisan support $50 million worth of bills that had been outstanding relates not only to that matter; implicitly it looks for between five and six months. beyond the level of political rhetoric that inevitably dominates politics. In central Budget issues there is I know of three companies that went broke because practically no difference between the Liberal of the former government's activities. I know that a government on the one hand and the Labor petrol company stopped supplying fuel to the PTC opposition on the other. because the incompetent former government could not pay its bills. This government's financial During the debate on the Budget Papers, the problems result from the incompetence of the former difference was narrowed to whether the government government, but this government is addressing the should address the budgetary problems over three problems. And it will pay its bills. or four years or over a longer term, a difference which in real terms is not great. The opposition has VICTORIAN COMMISSION OF AUDIT shown Significant bipartisanship in supporting and addressing this serious budgetary position. Like the Mr ASHLEY (Bayswater) - Will the Treasurer government, inevitably the opposition has to express inform the House of the Victorian Commission of the differences and concentrate on them. Audit findings on the government's Budget strategy extending over four years rather than a shorter time? In answering the question, the Victorian Commission of Audit highlights the Significance of Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - The question that difference in financial and economic goes to the heart of the differences in Budget management. The commission addresses the issue of management priorities between the Labor Party and whether it is desirable to slow the pace of addressing the government in respect of the problems facing Victoria's budgetary problem, and it has reached the Victoria at the moment. same conclusion as the government. Indeed, it commissioned a study by Access Economics to In answering the question, may I take the illustrate the points. At page 145 of volume 1 of the opportunity of recognising, for what I think is only report, the commission strongly endorses the the second time, that the opposition has provided government's strategy that it is important to address QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1748 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 the budgetary position immediately and over as ENERGY CONCESSIONS short a period as possible, rather than choosing to do it over a longer period in the mistaken belief that it Mr THOMSON (Pascoe Vale) - Will the will ease the pain. Minister for Energy and Minerals categorically reject the recommendation of the Victorian Commission of The commission found that if the government were Audit to scrap concessions on energy bills for age to delay addressing the problem by even a short pensioners and low-income people and to scrap the time the Budget would be in deficit for many more Home Energy Advisory Service, which plays an years; that the overall Budget deficit would be important role in electricity demand management, maintained until the next millennium and even and assure the House that the energy concessions beyond 2000; that the State debt would rise will be retained? substantially as a result of delay; and that attempts to delay dealing with the issue would, even in the Mr S. J. PLOWMAN (Minister for Energy and medium term of a few years, dramatically increase Minerals) - The undertaking that the honourable the interest burden. The commission also found that member seeks would be an irresponsible write-off of it will be many years, as the government an independent report to the people of Victoria. The acknowledges, before Victoria will once again attract government is concerned with the delivery of a AAA rating, and that to slow the program even services, particularly the former government's slightly would involve no realistic prospect of scatter-gun approach to service delivery, and the restoring the AAA rating within 15 years. fact that some groups have been poorly targeted.

I have been at the forefront of political jousting in The government is currently reviewing the issue. I the House for a long time. It is encouraging for the certainly will not give that undertaking, but I shall people of Victoria that there is bipartisan support for give an undertaking to the honourable member and quickly addressing the budgetary problem. There is to the House that the issues will be properly no denying that the problem is serious. It is reviewed and that the government's decision will be important for Victorians to recognise that a high notified to Parliament and the people of Victoria in degree of bipartisan support for the remedy can be due course. delivered relatively quickly - in two years. That will provide Victoria with a secure base for service VICTORIAN COMMISSION OF AUDIT delivery, with the prospect of giving the State the chance of reducing taxes, increaSing investments Mr DA VIS (Essendon) - Will the Treasurer and maintaining the State's assets. It will provide the inform the House of the findings of the Victorian capacity to continue to deliver services on a Commission of Audit regarding the opposition's sustainable basis and to make new investments in assertion that Victoria's economic woes are entirely infrastructure. due to the national and international recession?

The hope for the future is that the government is Mr STOCK DALE (Treasurer) - The Victorian doing the right thing by the State in quickly Commission of Audit report is particularly addressing the budgetary situation. The Victorian important because it identifies the causes of Commission of Audit recognises that the Victoria's problems as well as endorsing the solution government has endeavoured to explain the that the government is implementing. It is important difficulties to the community, and the opposition to recognise that we are not dealing with forces deserves credit for the extent to which it has beyond our own control, as some people have endorsed that program while adhering to the view suggested and, indeed, as seems implicit in some of that it should be done over a longer period. the things the opposition claims from time to time.

I make the point that the commission comes down The commission traces the history of the on the government side, and on the point where development of Victoria's problems. It starts shortly there is any difference between the parties the after the election of the first Cain government in commission takes the view that delay would be 1982 and quotes passages in which the then Labor worse than dealing with the problem quickly. government set out its deliberate policy of increasing reliance on debt funding. It is remarkable that the then government, in its discussions on this issue, paid no attention to the interest burden that that imposed on the Victorian economy. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1749

The second element of the cause of the problem is any plans for the dredging of Western Port to allow the neglect of the steady development of that supertankers to berth at the Crib Point jetty; and interest burden and the squeezing of the service would the Minister approve any dredging, if it were delivery capacity by the growing interest burden in contemplated, without calling for an environmental the Budget current account. Again, any reader of effects statement? newspapers at that time would have failed to find any recognition by the then Labor government that The SPEAKER - Order! The last part of the Victoria had to buy the debt that was being question is hypothetical. accumulated by annual interest payments. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning) - I The third cause was the runaway spending of the hope it is hypothetical; I would not want to think previous government, which expanded services far there was an extensive dredging program proposed more rapidly than the growth in State taxes, for Western Port. Unless it were essential for particularly in recent years, when there was a shipping safety reasons, it would be the last thing softening of State revenue and expenditure was that would be proposed! Planning controls may not allowed to increase at double the rate of increase in extend to the bed of Western Port since that is State revenue. submerged land and is perhaps not in the planning scheme. I shall have that matter examined. The next cause was that unacceptably high levels of risk were undertaken by such organisations as the If the honourable member is directing attention to Victorian Economic Development Corporation, State the general question of shipping in Western Port and Bank Victoria and Tricontinental. to all deliveries to and exports from that area, I believe the announcement by the Federal Another cause was the refusal to adjust the Budget government prior to the Federal election about its to what was occurring in the rest of the world and a willingness to insist upon double-hulled ships failure to adhere to a program of reform that even brings clearly into focus the Commonwealth's role the then government had endorsed given the in shipping in Western Port. If the Commonwealth downgrading of Victoria's credit rating and the were to decide that ships carrying imported oil were expression of disapproval from those from whom not appropriate in Western Port, that decision would the State was borrowing the money as they have to be implemented by the Commonwealth increased the interest rates the government had to government. If the Commonwealth decided that oil pay on that money. The final cause was the failure to was not an appropriate product to be exported adjust to the rapid rise in the cost of superannuation. through Western Port, again the Commonwealth government would have the constitutional I have raised those points not to weaken what I have responsibility and opportunity to make that decision. said about the bipartisan support for the remedies but to direct attention to the significance of the With the greatest respect to the honourable member government's agenda in addressing the very causes for Richmond, he and I should direct the question he of the problem. It is futile for us to pretend that the asks to the Federal Minister for Shipping and causes of Victoria's problem are beyond our control Aviation and the Federal Minister for the because of the national and international recession. Environment and Territories and ask whether they They are largely the result of deliberate policies would allow such an action as he refers to. We pursued or neglected in the face of clear evidence should also ask whether the Commonwealth would that things were not running in our favour. Again be willing to allow not only shipping movements Victoria's strength and the basis for its secure and such as those but also the dredging of Western Port confident future rest on the fact that the government to allow those shipping movements - and when it is doing the right thing in curing the problems will make up its mind and make an announcement caused by policies that brought the State to the sorry on the matter. position it was in shortly before the last election. MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS DREDGING IN WESTERN PORT Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - Will the Mr DOLLlS (Richmond) - I direct to the Minister for Police and Emergency Services advise a ttention of the Minister for Planning his decision to the House of the steps he has taken to address the approve amendment No. L99 to the Hastings problem of motorcycle accidents on Victorian roads? Planning Scheme and I ask: is the Minister aware of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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The SPEAKER - Order! It is a broad question other media outlets. It will be conducted on the basis but I will allow it. of detailed evidence that has been collected not only by the police but also by road authorities and other Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Police and interested parties. Something needs to be done about Emergency Services) - This is an important issue. the level of motorcyclist fatalities, and we hope this Honourable members might not be aware that campaign will help. registered motorcycles comprise only 2.5 per cent of all motorised transport, but unfortunately Honourable members interjecting. motorcyclist fatalities account for 14 per cent of the road toll. The government recognises that it must do Mr McNamara interjected. something to reduce the level of fatalities and to ensure that motorcycliSts and motorists generally The SPEAKER - Order! I will not warn the are more aware of the problem. Deputy Premier again. The time for questions without notice has expired. Last year the overall road toll fell by 15 per cent in the metropolitan area but the number of Dr COG HILL (Werribee) -On a point of order, motorcyclist fatalities increased by 30 per cent. Since Mr Speaker, with respect to your ruling on the 1989 some 250 motorcyclists have been killed on desirable length of answers by Ministers to Victorian roads. I hope we receive bipartisan questions without notice, you have advised the support for the promotional campaign being set up House that answers should generally not exceed by the government. 3 minutes and in all circumstances should not exceed 5 minutes. Today there have been only three Mr Kennan interjected. questions answered within the desirable maximum time, and two answers have gone on for more than Mr McNAMARA - I point out to the Leader of 7 minutes. 1 ask you to reaffirm the guidelines to be the Opposition that the TAC advertisements are a applied by the Chair in respect of the length of new initiative that should have been introduced answers by Ministers. some time ago! The SPEAKER - Order! The Chair will try to Mr Kennan interjected. take as dispassionate an approach as possible to the point of order. The guidelines and the suggestions I Mr McNAMARA - The carping of the Leader of made to Ministers and other honourable members in the Opposition is disappointing to the people of this place about the length of answers was that Victoria. Even in his own electorate he is despised. 3 minutes was a rough guide. The rule of thumb 1 used, old-fashioned though it may be, is the number The SPEAKER - Order! Reflections against of questions that can be asked in the time allotted. If honourable members are disorderly. the honourable member for Werribee were to examine the record he would find that over the past Mr McNAMARA -I shall not make a reflection few weeks a significant number of questions have on the Leader of the Opposition except to point out been asked. In my humble opinion that is a good that at the last election he recorded the lowest ALP record. primary vote in Broadmeadows in decades. Jack Culpin and others regularly recorded at least 7 per Eight questions were asked today. Although 1 cent more than he did. allowed the last answer to continue for a little longer than usual, 1 am conscious of protecting the rights of The SPEAKER - Order! I bring the Deputy honourable members on both sides of the House. Premier back to order on two counts: firstly, he is When, in my opinion, a Minister gives a long answer debating the matter; and secondly, his remarks are to obstruct further questions 1 will bring that not relevant. Minister back to order. I allowed some latitude on the last answer today because the time for questions Mr McNAMARA - It is enough to say that the had expired while the answer was being given. electors of Broadmeadows have made their judgment; it is not for me to comment any further. I am very conscious of protecting the rights of honourable members and of ensuring that no This Sunday the government will begin a massive Minister obstructs the business of the House or uses advertising campaign on television and through up valuable time by filibustering during question FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1751 time. I recognise the point raised by the honourable Mr PERTON - I put it to you, Mr Speaker, that member for Werribee. However, from my point of the Leader of the OppOSition is straying onto the view question time today was conducted in a merits of the Bill and is not debating the question of satisfactory manner. whether the debate should be adjourned until Tuesday week, or for four weeks, as moved by the Government Members - Hear, hear! honourable member for Melbourne.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION The SPEAKER - Order! The Chair must exercise (AMENDMENT) BILL fine judgment in deciding these types of points of order. The Leader of the Opposition is entitled to Second reading build a case on the question of time and may illustrate his case by quoting extracts from the Bill. Debate resumed. He is not, however, at liberty to canvass the general issues of the Bill, as he is well aware. Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - On the question of time, Mr Speaker, the government I do not uphold the point of order. I ask the Leader has now moved that debate on this Bill, which of the Opposition to cooperate with the Chair and to should have been read a second time yesterday, refer to the Bill as little as possible while building an should be adjourned until Tuesday week. Such an argument on the question of time. adjournment will not allow adequate time for consideration of the Bill. Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - For instance, the effect of the Bill in relation to charges The Bill absolutely stands on its head the will be that a media organisation may have to pay government's commitment to open government. between $15000 and $40 000 for a single application. More time than two weeks is required for An appropriate period of time is required for consideration of the Bill because the government has consideration of that fundamental point. taken every citizen in Victoria by surprise in introducing it. During a decade in opposition, and in Under this Bill for the first time local government the speech by His Excellency the Governor following will come under freedom of information scrutiny. the 3 October election, the coalition parties The Bill operates retrospectively for five years in that expressed content with the Freedom of Information respect. Honourable members will be aware that Act as it currently operates, opposed any suggestion local government bodies often meet on a monthly that the Act should be amended, and made an cycle and an adjournment only until Tuesday week express commitment to improving accountability will deprive not only individual Victorians and and openness of government if at all possible. Yet, media organisations but also local government unless sufficient time is allowed for the Bill to be bodies of the opportunity of scrutinising a Bill that given the consideration that it needs, the directly affects the administration of local government's action may be seen as cutting back on government. any commitment it has given to open government. On the question of time, Mr Speaker, it would have One need only to consider the fact that the Bill been different if these proposals had been the subject introduces user-pays charges. It is totally of a discussion paper or some sort of report issued inappropriate to adjourn the Bill only until Tuesday by the government proposing a range of issues that week when, if the Bill is passed, the $100 ceiling on needed to be canvassed. This is, however, a trap set requests for persons other than members of by the government to bring in a Bill at the end of the Parliament will be lifted. As a result ordinary sessional period. citizens will need to consider how much freedom of information requests will cost. In the case of The opposition understands that the government complex requests the provision will mean that an wishes the Bill to proceed through Parliament this individual request -- sessional period. In those circumstances, the Bill will be rustled through Parliament in the last week of the Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - On a point of order, sitting and there will be insufficient time to engage Mr Speaker, in your absence the Deputy Speaker in adequate consultation on the Bill or to adequately kept the'debate within very narrow confines. expose the Bill to scrutiny.

Honourable members interjecting. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

1752 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993

It is particularly ironic and speaks volumes about (Amendment) Bill is the policy of the Leader of the the attitude of the government towards freedom of Opposition without the nasties. information, open government and accountability that in respect of legislation that goes to the heart of The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable accountability and scrutiny of administration not member cannot reflect on members in that manner. only does the government propose to substantially He must confine his remarks to the question of time. restrict the access and infringe the rights of citizens He can use other facts at his disposal to build a case but also will not allow sufficient time for those on the question of time. points to be discussed. Mr LEIGH - The opposition does not need more I am sure all honourable members will be aware that time for consideration of this legislation because it is there are two concepts involved in this issue. Firstly, the very type of legislation that it was interested in there are the proposals themselves, which I will put introducing, with a number of exceptions. The to one side for a moment for the purposes of the Leader of the Opposition failed to remind the argument. Secondly, whatever people think of the community that in 1985 he attempted to introduce a merits of the proposals, there is a need for Bill in the Upper House to abolish freedom of appropriate time to be allowed for public discussion information provisions. He proposed to take the of those proposals and for a setting out of what they power from the Supreme Court and give it to the are. then Premier, John Cain. What time did he allow for consideration by the then opposition? None. It was Without commenting on them in any detail, a range the then opposition that stopped him. of proposals in the Bill will affect State and local government administration and the rights of citizens The government was reluctant to participate in any in one way or another. In those circumstances, what arrangement with the Labor Party prior to the is wrong with adjourning the debate on the Bill for election because Labor could not be trusted. No four weeks? The opposition acknowledges that the more time is required for consideration of the Bill. If effect of such an adjournment would be that the Bill honourable members read Hansard, they will find would lay over until the next sessional period. that the honourable member for Melbourne, in his concluding remarks, said he supported the Bill. The opposition believes that in respect of a Bill which affects fundamental issues such as freedom of The Leader of the Opposition said local government information and which has taken the community by needed time to understand the Bill. Local surprise, albeit that it has borne out the opposition's government has known about the application of the suspicions about the darkest intentions of the Bill, as it has been the policy of the Liberal Party government, and which has not been the subject of a since 1986 that if it ever came to office the Freedom consultative process or canvassing of opinions -- of Information Act would be applied to local government. Nothing has changed. The honourable The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the member for Melbourne may well be able to argue Opposition is becoming repetitive. that if the government had introduced a new Bill on local government, more time might have been Mr KENNAN - I will try not to be repetitive. If available. debate were adjourned until only Tuesday week it would simply not allow enough time. If the Mr Gude - We are fulfilling a promise. government is serious about the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill, debate should be Mr LEIGH -As the Leader of the House says, adjourned for four weeks. Our motion should be we are fulfilling a promise. All the Bill does is extend accepted. In effect it would adjourn debate on the the provisions of the existing Freedom of Bill until the next sessional period and allow Information Act to local government. Local councils everyone to look at the proposals, especially those are well aware of that. While the Labor Party was in directly affected such as interest groups and the government council representatives regularly media. sought assistance from me. All the government is doing is fulfilling its commitment. Mr LEIGH (Mordialloc) - It seems that opposition members have amnesia as to how much Honourable members should recall that it was the time they allowed for consideration of legislation. Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the The policy embodied in the Freedom of Information honourable member for Melbourne, who wanted to FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

Friday,7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1753 get rid of the Act. He sought to do so without any allow communities access to information on what discussion with the opposition. Why was that so? bureaucrats in local government have been doing. He wanted to cover up what councils were doing. That will protect people and their communities.

The ACIlNG SPEAKER (Mr Cooper) - Order! I Opposition members are hypocrites. Having lost have allowed the honourable member for government they have changed their policies. All the Mordialloc a great deal of latitude. He must come government has done is to carry out a commitment back to the question of time. that the Labor Party was not prepared to fulfil. It is a disgrace, a sham, that all opposition members in the Mr LEIGH - I intend to. The government is only Chamber have sought to drag out the debate and implementing some minor machinery changes. delay the business of the House in an irresponsible way. The House sat for 26 hours on one occasion Mr Thwaites - Oh! recently. It is an absolute outrage! The sooner the House divides, the sooner we can deal with this Bill. Mr LEIGH - The honourable member for Albert Park submitted freedom of information requests Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I should have relating to whether Ministers should spend State thought that members opposite would want a little money on morning suits. That is the sort of time to explain their conduct to their constituents ridiculous freedom of information request he has and to explain why, until 3 October, only a few made. No member of any opposition has asked months ago, the Liberal Party was a great proponent about that in the past. of freedom of information provisions, yet now it wants to be the agent of their destruction. It is in the interests of everyone to implement the Bill quickly. The honourable member for Melbourne can The government wants to make it so expensive to get as highly strung as he likes - as he did earlier. I seek information under freedom of information am surprised that he is not a member of Actors provisions that no-one will use them. The Equity, given the way he expressed his supposed government does not want time allowed for debate outrage. I suggest that the honourable member for because it does not want the community, Melbourne go back to his own party and ask the particularly constituents of the honourable member former Deputy Premier and now Leader of the for Doncaster, to know that he has filed 400 Opposition about the difference between the applications under freedom of information government's set of amendments and those the provisions every year for the past three years. How former government tried to introduce. The much would that have cost him if he had had to pay? government's amendments are the same, without the bad bits. This is the opposition's Bill. The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member will resume his seat. If the The opposition knows what the Bill is about; local honourable member wants to be heard in silence, he government knows what it is about. Over the past should not provoke members opposite. He should few weeks all the opposition has argued about is debate the question of time. time, time, time. It is more interested in frustrating the arrangements of the House and the will of the Mr THWAITES - I note that the honourable people of Victoria than in what is happening to our member for Doncaster has now disappeared from State. The government has spent considerable time the Chamber. Perhaps he is talking to the media. He on the legislation to make sure it is properly drafted. has enough time to talk to the media, but he does I agree with the Attorney-General and the Leader of not have time to talk to his constituents or to the the House that the time allotted for debate should various people affected by the Bill. They are the not be extended; the sooner the Bill is applied to people I will talk about. local government the better. I am upset about the Bill for good reasons. There is only one reason why Labor may not want to Hypocrisy upsets me. People go to the media and see the Bill applied to local government so quickly: say that the government must be very careful in some councils are in a great deal of trouble and are dealing with freedom of information provisions; yet worried about government members looking at after only six months in government the coalition what is going on behind the scenes. Labor wants to wants to destroy those provisions and effectively frustrate and delay the process to protect its mates. tear up the Act by making freedom of information so The Bill is fundamentally important. It will finally FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

1754 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993 expensive that people will not be able to use its From what the member for Bulleen is indicating by provisions. interjection, it appears that that organisation has been given time to consider the Bill. It may be that The AcrING SPEAKER - Order! The the honourable member released the Bill to that honourable member will come back to the question group before the rest of the community has had the of time. opportunity of seeing it. The people in my electorate have not had that opportunity. Numerous groups in Mr THWAITES - I will address the question of my electorate are concerned about conservation and time just as various other members in the House they have not had the opportunity of seeing the Bill. have addressed it. I can only presume that the member for Bulleen has given a group in his electorate an advantage other Apart from members of the House, numerous groups have not had. groups in the community also have an interest in the Bill. It is not just a question of members of One of the key issues in determining how much time Parliament whether in opposition or in government; should be allowed for consideration of a Bill is the it is a question of the community and the various importance of the measure. If the legislation were a public interest groups that use freedom of minor amending measure it would be appropriate information. Those groups will want time to for debate on the Bill to be adjourned for 7 or 10 consider the legislation, discuss it and advise the days. However, this is an extremely important piece government and the Attorney-General of their views. of legislation and as such the opposition needs more time in which to consider it. The National Parks Association made a submission to the Legal and Constitutional Committee about the I shall quote a relatively recent newspaper article importance of FoI. That association needs more time entitled "Our Right to Know", which illustrates why to consider the legislation. It said that the imposition more time is needed. The article states: of even moderate charges would have a significantly inhibiting effect on the organisation, which relies to At this critical time it is essential that we defend a large extent on donations for research and freedom of information, so every citizen can use or conservation issues. benefit from it.

The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The Put simply, the Westminster system of Parliament honourable member for Albert Park is aware of the needs the support that open government laws provide. fact that this is a narrow debate on time. He is now In the absence of a strong Fol Act there will be a starting to canvass issues in the Bill. If he continues manifestly inadequate oversight of the State's policies to do that I will not hear him. He will confine his and management practices. remarks to the question of time, as other members have been required to do by other people who have This statement is extremely relevant to the issue of occupied the chair. the time for consideration of the Bill:

Mr THWAITES - Another group which should ... opponents of open government who have recently be consulted and which the honourable member for described any politically embarrassing request as an Bulleen may care to consult is the "abuse" of the Act, "voluminous" or simply too Bulleen-Templestowe Residents Association. It told burdensome. the Legal and Constitutional Committee that FoI assisted it in tremendously and that the committee Who was the author of that? The Honourable Mark had no idea how good it was. Birrell, Leader of the House in the other place. That is the sort of comment that was made before the last The reason that association needs time to look at the election, but now this Bill has been introduced and legislation is that it affects it Significantly. The we get 10 days to look at it. What does the Leader of current legislation includes a $100 ceiling for fees the other House say about that? What does the and the Bill wipes it out. The association could be member for Doncaster say about this abrogation of asked to pay any amount. The government will find responsibility and this ridiculously short time the that groups such as the Bulleen-Templestowe House has been given to consider the legislation? Residents Association will not be able to provide the sort of input required on the Bill in the 10 days What about the Attorney-General? Does she think suggested by the Attorney-General. the time allowed is sufficient? Has the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Attorney-General given any consideration to Mr THWAITES - I am pleased the Leader of the whether 10 days is enough time for the opposition to House has made that observation because I would consider the Bill? Clearly she does not; she cares so be happy to sit longer. little she is talking to another member. Mr Gude -Of course you would. You would In 1989 the honourable member for Kew, the current talk under a mountain of cement with a mouth full Attorney-General, said this about the period allowed of marbles. for the adjournment of debate on a Bill before the House: Mr THWAITES - I hope the Leader of the House is a man of his word and that the Parliament On the question of time, Mr Speaker, two weeks is a does sit longer so that more time will be allowed for completely unacceptable period of adjournment for the the consideration of this Bill and the Bill ... amendments --

What Bill was the Attorney-General talking about? It Mr Gude interjected. was the Caravan Parks and Movable Dwellings Bill. That Bill did not affect people's rights in the same The SPEAKER - Order! I ask the Minister for fundamental way as this Bill does, but the Industry and Employment to withdraw that remark. Attorney-General wanted more time. She went on to say: Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Employment) - I withdraw . ... which makes changes to provisions affecting estate agents and people who wish to enter that profession. It Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The government also contains detailed financial provisions about the has introduced so much legislation so hastily that it trust accounts held by estate agents. is subsequently found to be full of loopholes. The Leader of the House would be well aware of that Parliament is not about rushing through proposed because he introduced the Employee Relations Bill, legislation on the basis of the government's legislative which needed numerous amendments. That program, but rather the proper consideration and legislation was hastily introduced and there was no debate of measures that come before it. opportunity for proper consultation with the various industrial relations groups. As a result, the Bill had I congratulate the Attorney-General on those to be amended. comments; they are sensible. Surely when it comes to a Significant Bill like this those same comments Ramming this Bill through without consultation and apply. It must be remembered that the government adequate time for the opposition to consider it will controls this House and its sittings. There is no result in the same problems and the Bill will have to reason why the House could not consider this matter be returned to this place to be fixed up. Other pieces in four weeks so that various groups would have the of legislation have contained spelling and technical opportunity to consider this legislation. errors. I wonder what the errors are in this Bill? I certainly have not had any opportunity to determine How is the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations that yet. Committee expected to consider the Bill in 10 days? That committee has a process by which groups are I have been as deeply involved in local government able to appear before it and make submissions. That as have you, Mr Speaker. Although Fol is a major is happening in relation to a number of Bills and it is issue for local government, councils will have only working well. However, in this case what 10 days to examine the Bill and make submissions to opportunity is there for the committee to consider Parliament. That time frame displays the the Bill, to call for submissions and then to hear government's complete lack of understanding of those submissions? None at all. The situation is local government. Because rural councils meet only made even worse because Parliament will sit next on a monthly basis, many of them will not have the week so the committee will have only limited opportunity to examine the legislation and make time-- submissions to Parliament, which is a problem.

Mr Gude - We might sit the week after and the The legislation is retrospective. Councils will find week after and the week after, the way you chatter that all their documents for the past five years are on! subject to Fo!. Whether that is a good thing or not, FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

1756 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 there will be no opportunity for the 210 councils to undermine the ability of Parliament to ensure that make submissions on the retrospective provisions. the government was accountable. In the brief time I have had to examine the Bill I have noted that charges are to be applied to applications The Attorney-General raised what the coalition had that have already been made. Those who have made said in its submission. If the coalition had put the applications will not be consulted because there forward a submission -- will be no time. Although they have already put in their applications, they will find they are liable for Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and charges. Employment) - On a point of order, I have listened patiently to more than 15 minutes of diatribe from The Attorney-General is smiling. She smiles the honourable member for Albert Park yet rarely whenever rights are abolished; it seems to give her has he spoken to the question of time. Mr Speaker, I particular pleasure. ask you to ~irect him back to the question of time.

Mr Gude - But in this case at least she did not The SPEAKER - Order! I uphold the point of have to change Hansard. order. The honourable member for Albert Park is straying from the question. I concede that he has a Mr THW AITES - Applicants will find their difficult job, but he must direct his contribution to applications are subject to additional charges, and the question of time. He may illustrate what he has they will not have a chance to meet to discuss the to say by referring to various passages in the Bill, Bill between now and Tuesday week. but the question of time should dominate his contribution, not the contents of the Bill. The government did not circulate a draft Bill. Apparently the honourable member for Bulleen had Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - On the question access to a draft Bill, but I did not and no-one else of time, a fundamental difference exists between the did. If a discussion paper had been produced, that coalition's submission to the former Legal and would have been reason enough for a shorter Constitutional Committee and the legislation it has adjournment period, but no such draft was introduced, the second-reading debate on which it circulated. The government has had a lot to say seeks to adjourn for only 10 days. The former Labor about what the former Labor government did. The government followed the proper process of referring government should examine the amount of time and the matter to a Parliamentary committee. The effort that the former Labor government put into the hearings were advertised and submissions were Freedom of Information Act. invited from the general public. Members of the committee considered the submissions and made The Labor government put a complete process in recommendations to Parliament, after which debate place. It referred the matter to the former Legal and proceeded. If one compares that situation with this, Constitutional Committee, and interested groups one finds that the matter has not been advertised, no had the opportunity of making detailed submissions have been called for and people have submissions. The members of the committee were not been given an opportunity to have their say. No also able to have their input. If the legislation is to be such process has been put in place. debated in 10 days time, there will be no time to refer it to the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations The House has been told that the second-reading Committee. If the legislation had been drafted debate will be adjourned for only 10 days, which exactly as the Legal and Constitutional Committee will not allow adequate time for consultation. That is suggested, that might have been different - but it a completely different situation from the situation in has not been. If the Minister had said that the 1988 and 1989, when the former Labor government legislation was the result of recommendations made provided adequate time for a Parliamentary by the Legal and Constitutional Committee, that committee and Parliamentarians to examine the would have been acceptable; but the legislation goes issue. What opportunity will Parliament have to directly against those recommendations. The examine what has happened with FoI in other areas committee specifically recommended against the since the report of the Legal and Constitutional removal of the upper limit on fees and against Committee? imposing fees on members of Parliament. In the minority report the honourable member for Pascoe Mr Perrin - That was two years ago! Vale specifically stated that members of Parliament should not have to pay fees because that would FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr THWAITES - A great deal of activity has interesting as the honourable member's example occurred since then. Studies have been undertaken might be, and as much as he feels he should respond in Queensland, and I would like to examine those. I to interjections, the debate is on the question of time. would like to examine what has happened in other I ask you, yet again, to direct the honourable States since the publication of the report of the Legal member back to the question before the House. and Constitutional Committee, but I will not be able to do that properly. I would like to look at the effect The SPEAKER - Order! Many speakers in the of the fees charged for Commonwealth applications. past have used the expression "making a passing At the time the Legal and Constitutional Committee reference" in their contributions. In speaking on the reported evidence showed that the introduction of question of time the honourable member may make fees had led to a 70 per cent reduction in the number a passing reference to other matters but he must of applications. That is what the government wants; return to the question. I uphold the point of order but I want to know whether that trend has and ask the honourable member to concentrate on continued. One of the most important groups the question of time. affected by the short adjournment period is the media. Consultation with the media is important so Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - Before the that they have a chance to have their say. There will interjection of the honourable member for Frankston not be a limit on the fees the media are charged. I referred the House to the media. Members of the media are very much the defenders of democracy. In Mrs Wade -Are you suggesting that the media many cases they are the whistleblowers, the people make FoI applications in the public interest? who can discover information and publish it for the benefit of the public. The media, above all, requires Mr THW AITES - It is a decision for the time to examine the proposed legislation because departments as to whether they are in the public they will suffer most. interest. The departments will try to block inquiries if they appear to be politically damaging. Since the Members of the media will have to pay $20 every coalition government came to power it has been time they apply for documents under FoI - and the blocking my path on Fol. number of applications they make is considerable.

The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable The payment of fees may prevent the media from member for Albert Park is straying from the undertaking proper investigation of a matter. That question. appears to be the philosophy underlying the Bill. The government's attitude is nasty, hypocritical and Mr Weideman interjected. despicable. The opposition and the community require more time to examine the Bill before it gets The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable rammed through the House. member for Frankston is out of order. Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Mr THWAITES - I should like to respond to the Employment) - I move: interjection. That the question be now put. The SPEAKER - Order! Interjections are disorderly. The SPEAKER - Order! The Chair has to exercise its judgment on whether it will accept the Mr THWAITES - Interjections may be motion. The debate on the question of time, as has disorderly, but I feel I should respond. By been well established by the Deputy Speaker and interjection I was asked to give one example, and I me, is narrow. Some five speakers have contributed shall. I requested all documents relating to the to the debate for 68 minutes. It is the opinion of the sacking of the Accident Compensation Tribunal Chair that the issues on both sides have been judges. The FoI officer said that I could view the exposed. Therefore, I accept the motion. documents. Later I received another letter from the department, this time from the secretary, saying I House divided on Mr Gude's motion: could not view the documents. Ayes/58 Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Ashley, Mr (Teller) Maclellan, Mr Employment) -On a point of order, Mr Speaker, as Bildstien, Mr McNamara, Mr FREEDOM OF INFORMATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr House divided on omission (Members in favour Clark, Mr Napthine, Or vote No): Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr Ayes, 58 Oavis, Mr Perton,Mr Ashley, Mr Maclellan, Mr Dean,Mr Pescott, Mr Bildstien,Mr McNamara,Mr Doyle,Mr Peulich,Mrs Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr Elder,Mr Phillips,Mr Clark,Mr Napthine, Or Elliott, Mrs Plowman, Mr A.F. (TelltT) Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr Finn,Mr Plowman, Mr S.J. Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr Gude,Mr Reynolds, Mr Oavis,Mr Perton,Mr Hayward,Mr Richard80n, Mr Dean,Mr Pescott, Mr Heffeman, Mr Rowe,Mr Doyle,Mr Peulich,Mrs Henderson, Mrs Ryan,Mr Elder,Mr Phillips,Mr Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. Elliott, Mrs Plowman, Mr A.F. Hyams,Mr Spry,Mr Finn,Mr Plowman, Mr S.J. Jasper, Mr Steggall, Mr Gude,Mr Reynolds, Mr Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr Hayward,Mr Richard80n, Mr John, Mr Tanner, Mr Heffeman, Mr Rowe,Mr Kilgour,Mr Tehan, Mrs Henderson, Mrs (TelltT) Ryan,Mr Leigh,Mr Thomp80n, Mr Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. Lupton,Mr Traynor,Mr Hyams,Mr Spry, Mr McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr Jasper, Mr Steggall,Mr McGiIl,Mrs Tumer,Mr Jenkins, Mr Stockdale, Mr McGrath, Mr J.F. Wade,Mrs John,Mr Tanner,Mr McGrath, Mr w.o. Weideman, Mr Kilgour,Mr Tehan, Mrs McLellan,Mr Wells,Mr Leigh, Mr Thompson, Mr Lupton,Mr Traynor,Mr Noes, 25 McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Loney,Mr McGilI,Mrs Tumer,Mr Baker,Mr Marple,Ms McGrath, Mr J.F. Wade,Mrs Batchelor, Mr Micallef,Mr McGrath, Mr W.O. Weideman, Mr Coghill,Or Mildenhall, Mr McLellan,Mr Wells, Mr (TelltT) Cole,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr (TelltT) Cunningham, Mr (TelltT) Sandon,Mr Dollis,Mr Seitz, Mr Noes, 23 Garbutt, Mrs Sercombe, Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Marple,Ms Haermeyer, Mr Sheehan,Mr Baker, Mr Micallef,Mr Hamilton,Mr Thom80n,Mr Coghill, Or Mildenhall, Mr (TelltT) Kennan, Mr Thwaites, Mr Cole,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Kimer,Ms Vaughan,Or Cunningham, Mr Sandon, Mr Leighton, Mr Dollis,Mr Seitz, Mr Garbutt, Mrs Sercombe, Mr Motion agreed to. Haermeyer, Mr (TelltT) Sheehan, Mr Hamilton,Mr Thomson,Mr The SPEAKER - Order! The Attorney-General Kimer,Ms Thwaites, Mr has moved that the debate be adjourned until Leighton, Mr Vaughan,Or Tuesday week, to which the honourable member for Loney, Mr Melbourne has moved that the words "until Tuesday, 18 May" be deleted and in their place "for Amendment negatived. four weeks" be inserted. The question is: Motion agreed to and debate adjourned until That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of Tuesday, 18 May. the motion. PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1759

PERSONAL EXPLANATION government's broader corporatisation agenda, aimed at improving the efficiency and financial Mr JENKINS (Ballarat West) - I wish to make a performance of public sector trading activities. personal explanation. According to Votes and Proceedings No. 33 of 6 May last, at page 8, a Historically, the motivation for government division was called. My name was omitted from the involvement in establishing softwood plantations division list, as though I were not in the House at the has been the provision of alternative sources of time. I was in my usual position - perhaps my supply to native and imported timbers and to small frame was not detected by the tellers. stimulate employment opportunities in rural areas.

VICTORIAN PLANTATIONS Today these goals have largely been fulfilled, with CORPORATION BILL the softwood timber industry characterised by a number of large, vertically integrated producers Second reading with privately owned plantations providing an important adjunct to State-owned timber supplies. Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural Resources) - I move: The Department of Conservation and Natural Resources currently manages the 106100 hectares of That this Bill be now read a second time. State-owned softwood plantation, and 7400 hectares of State-owned hardwood plantation in the In establishing the Victorian Plantations Strzelecki Ranges. It is those resources that are the Corporation, the State Owned Enterprises Act 1992 subject of the legislation. has been used as the overarching legislation. Large areas of planting between the 1960s and 1980s Under section 14 of the State Owned Enterprises mean there will be a progressive increase in timber Act, the corporation was declared a State body by availability from those plantations, from around Order in Council on 4 May 1993. A subsequent order 1.3 million cubic metres at present to about under section 17 of that Act will be used to declare 1.9 million cubic metres in 2001-2002. the corporation as a State business corporation. Most of the future sawlog production is already The Bill provides complementary enabling committed to industry, via long-term licences or legislation for the corporation, in that it confers legislated agreements between the Secretary to the additional functions and powers and makes further Department of Conservation and Natural Resources provision for the management of plantations. Many on behalf of the government and the relevant of the functions and powers conferred on the company. corporation are currently the responsibility of the Secretary to the Department of Conservation and The challenge for domestic timber producers in the Natural Resources and are additional to those 19908 and beyond will be to maintain price and functions and powers conferred by the State Owned quality competitiveness in the face of increased Enterprises Act 1992. competition from imported sawn timber, wood panels, pulp and paper products. Passage of the legislation is essential to resource the corporation and to achieve an operating capability In this environment, State-owned plantation consistent with private sector competitors. In short, operations run the risk of being priced out of local the legislation enables the corporatisation of markets or requiring some form of financial subsidy State-owned plantation management. unless they are put on a competitive footing.

It is necessary to separate State-owned plantation According to the National Working Group on management from the Department of Conservation Corporate Reforms, originally formed under the and Natural Resources in order to provide a clear auspices of the special Premiers Conferences, the commercial focus. It also fulfils two key key attributes of a fully corporatised body are clarity commitments of the coalition government: firstly, of objectives, managerial autonomy, accountability the undertaking in the forests policy that a Victorian for outcomes, appropriate rewards and sanctions Softwood Corporation will be established to manage and competitive neutrality. Under the present and improve the financial viability of State-owned administrative arrangements the achievement of plantations; and secondly, to further the such goals is not possible. VICTORIAN PLANTATIONS CORPORATION BILL

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It is also imperative that Victoria keep its raw Most of the necessary powers and functions of material costs under control if it is to compete directors of the corporation will be conferred by the against suppliers from other countries like New State Owned Enterprises Act. Zealand, where formerly publicly owned plantations have already been converted to The Bill provides complementary power and commercial management. functions, and other measures necessary to ensure the appropriate operating environment for the The process of commercialising and corporatising corporation. State-owned plantations in Victoria follows a thorough examination by government of the The Bill provides for the transfer from the Secretary commercial operating environment for plantation to the Department of Conservation and Natural enterprises and the necessary legislative changes. Resources to the corporation, of management responsibility for land and forest vested in, leased Creating the Victorian Plantations Corporation as a by, or otherwise managed by the corporation as State body under the State Owned Enterprises Act provided for in the Bill. ensures the corporation performs its functions and exercises its powers in a manner consistent with the The legislation will amend the National Parks Act public interest by operating as efficiently as possible, 1975 to vest two small areas of land in the consistent with prudent commercial practice and corporation. In both cases boundaries between parks maximising its contribution to the economy and and the plantation estate will be rationalised to wellbeing of the State. benefit on-ground management.

Replacing the existing management approach with a At the Kentbruck plantation, approximately more commercially focussed board and corporate 29 hectares of land currently in the Lower Glenelg organisation will bring about the necessary cultural National Park will be vested in the corporation. and operational changes, ensure increased When the National Park was proclaimed, 6 hectares accountability and efficiency and provide a basis for of pines and a ploughed plantation firebreak, a long evaluating the corporation's performance relative to 3O-metre wide strip having a total area of other public and private sector timber producers. approximately 23 hectares, were included.

Accountability to the State as owner will be effected The current boundaries were appropriate when all through approval of the corporate plan by the the land was managed by one agency. However, Treasurer and the Minister for Natural Resources, with the establishment of the corporation as a with provision for the government to define separate body to manage plantations, it is community service obligations to be performed by appropriate to vest the plantation firebreak and the the corporation. small area of pines in the corporation. Responsibilities for land management and fire Accountability mechanisms relating to dividend prevention costs will then be clearly defined. payments and financial statements are also in accordance with the State Owned Enterprises Act. In respect to Moondarra State Park, approximately 2.5 hectares will be vested in the corporation. The Under that Act, a levy on all new borrOWings is land is essentially a fenced and grazed State payable to the State to reflect explicit and implicit Electricity Commission easement. The new park guarantees enjoyed by the corporation and to boundary will be consistent with an existing track impose additional financial discipline on borrowing around the plantation. decisions. Ownership by the corporation of forest produce on To the extent that the corporation continues to be freehold land and vested land is provided for in the exempt from the payment of Commonwealth taxes, Bill. An exception is hardwood sawlogs located in the Treasurer may require the payment of amounts native forest inliers, which are required to meet determined to be equivalent to the Commonwealth existing long-term licence commitments and are to tax liabilities that the corporation would face if it remain the responsibility of the Secretary to the were a public company. Department of Conservation and Natural Resources.

The responsibility for existing long-term licences and legislated wood supply agreements currently CA RA VAN PARKS AND MOVABLE DWELLINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1761 held by the Secretary to the Department of that may arise from use by the public of those Conservation and Natural Resources has been reserves or roads cannot be successfully maintained. assigned to the corporation. I commend the Bill to the House. Provision has been made for the transfer of appropriate assets and liabilities to the corporation. Debate adjourned on motion of Ms MARPLE Transfer of the plantation estate, including trees, is (Altona). achieved by the legislation. Other assets will be transferred by Order in Council on recommendation Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural of the Minister. Transfer of monetary assets will be Resources) - I move: authorised by the Treasurer. That the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, 18 May. In respect of liabilities, provision has been made in the legislation for supply agreements and farm In so doing I indicate that the resources necessary to forestry agreements to transfer to the corporation. enable the opposition to process its thoughts on the Other liabilities will be transferred where Bill will be made available. appropriate by Order in Council on the recommendation of the Minister. Motion agreed to and debate adjourned until Tuesday, 18 May. Provision is made for delegation by the Secretary to the Department of Conservation and Natural CARAVAN PARKS AND MOVABLE Resources of certain powers and authorities under DWELLINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL the Forests Act and the Conservation, Forests and Lands Acts to corporation officers. Second reading

Powers are also provided to open or close certain Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of roads. The plantations being transferred will be Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning). protected public land under the Forests Act, and existing fire prevention and suppression Mr SAND ON (Carrum) - The opposition responsibilities will remain with the Secretary to the supports this legislation and is happy to give it a Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. speedy passage. The legislation is based on the An agreement between the two organisations will recommendations of a caravan park group that has ensure a coordinated use of all resources in fire been meeting since the passage of the principal Act prevention and suppression. Necessary in 1988. The task of that caravan park group was to consequential amendments have been included in set out regulations pertaining to the industry. the legisla tion. Honourable members may remember that the I make the following statement under section 85(5) principal legislation was the first of its kind in of the Constitution Act 1975 of the reasons why Australia and that I had some involvement in its clause 34 of the Bill alters or varies that section. inception. Its idea emanated from the complaints of a young couple who knocked on my door one Clause 34 of the Bill provides that it is intended to Christmas Eve. They were living in a caravan park alter or vary the Constitution Act 1975 to the extent and were concerned about the lack of rights they necessary to prevent the Supreme Court from had at the time. Government members should take awarding compensation in respect of the matters note of this example. They can pick up on issues in referred to in clause 28. our community and, in the face of bureaucratic opposition and an executive that is predisposed to The reason for preventing the Supreme Court from work in other areas, continue to pursue the concerns awarding compensation is as follows. of the community.

To enable land to be vested in and divested from the As a result of my personal experience I became corporation, to revoke reserves affecting vested land aware of a significant social issue that had hitherto and to E:'nable thE:' closure (lf certain roads, it is been unregulated. For example, I became aware that necessary to ensure that the processes cannot be there were no tenants' rights pertaining to people in delayed or prevented by the bringing of actions for caravan parks and that many people choose caravan compensation and that any claim for compensation parks as their place of residence. I discovered that CARA VAN PARKS AND MOVABLE DWELLINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL

1762 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 many people choose to live in caravans not only for Country Fire AuthOrity have not been adequately financial reasons but also for lifestyle reasons. Some consulted on the regulations. It would be in older people choose a mobile home because of the everyone's interest, given the professional greater security they feel from living so close to knowledge and the nature of the duties of those other people. organisations, that that consultation take place.

As the fonner government pursued this issue it I shall not labour the point that many people living discovered that caravan parks provided services to in caravans and mobile homes at caravan parks are many people, not only tourists, and that the people pennanent residents and the government should living in those parks needed to be protected by ensure that fire service officers have sufficient regulations. In negotiating those regulations I had to training to handle any possible disaster. deal with 12 different government deparbnents. Honourable members know how difficult it would It is of concern to the opposition that the Bill be to try to achieve consensus in this problem area, provides that tenants or others who wish to appeal let alone come up with solutions, while having to against grievances must pay fees of $100. That may deal with that number of departments. Nevertheless, be reasonable for a caravan park owner or manager, the fonner government overcame those problems but for many people, especially those living in and the legislation, which ensures basic tenants' caravan parks, it is a Significant amount. I urge the rights for people living in caravans, was presented government to examine that provision because it to this House. Regulations were devised for the may have the effect of restricting the democratic industry so appropriate standards could be rights of many people. If the government is developed for caravans and mobile homes. concerned about vexatious or frivolous claims, it should allow the referee to impose penalties against This Bill is an example of the consensus that can be the appellant where the evidence shows that to be achieved when legislation has bipartisan support. appropriate. However, I would like the Minister's comments on a few matters I am concerned about. The first is that I am pleased that the legislation is being dealt with the standards have been distributed to government in this sessional period and that it has bipartisan members but not to opposition members. In an support. I shall assume that the fact that the effort to maintain the spirit in which this Bill was opposition has not seen the draft regulations is an introduced, it would have been appropriate for oversight. I wish the Bill a speedy passage. opposition members to receive copies of those standards. When the principal Act was debated in Mr COOPER (Morning ton) - I took part in the this House the fonner government was criticised by debate on the Caravan Parks and Movable the honourable member for Prahran, who is now the Dwellings Bill, which was passed with bipartisan Minister for Education, and the then honourable support, and I am delighted this Bill will receive member for Benambra for not having the regulations similar support. The Bill does not deal with the available for all to see. Now the boot is on the other provisions of the principal Act relating to the rights foot. Will the Minister explain why opposition of long-tenn residents of caravan parks because members did not receive copies of those standards, those provisions are administered by the and in the spirit of bipartisanship that has been Department of Justice. central to this debate over the years provide opposition members with copies? The Bill seeks to establish mechanisms for a comprehensive system of licensing and regulation Secondly, the opposition is concerned about the but does not deal with the rights of residents in proposed firefighting regulations. I do not wish to caravan parks, which are already enshrined in pre-empt the contribution of the honourable legislation. It has been difficult to draft the member for Mornington, because I am aware of his regulations because the vested interests were not background in this area; but the repeal of section 68 able to agree on what was necessary. of the principal Act has implications for the planning regulations. Will the Minister publicly The government has decided to remove control of assure me that community involvement will caravan parks and movable dwellings from the continue to be a feature of this process, and that, Caravan Parks Committee and return it to local after the passage of the Bill, the industry will government. The Bill will dismantle a layer of continue to be consulted and encouraged? It seems bureaucracy that has increased the costs of the that the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board and the caravan park industry and local government; those CARA VAN PARKS AND MOVABLE DWELLINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1763 increased costs will eventually flow on to the people government can be relied upon to deal with the who live in caravan parks. issue properly.

The legislation will replace the licensing system with The government wants to remove unnecessary, a simple registration system. The Caravan Parks unwanted and expensive layers of bureaucracy that Unit in the Office of Local Government will no impose burdens on people who, because of their longer be necessary. In 1991-92 the expenditure of economic circumstances, are forced to live in that unit was $147 000. That money was wasted, caravan parks. It is important for the government to which is not beneficial to the taxpayers of the State. ensure that regulatory control of caravan parks is kept to a minimum while at the same time The government believes the Caravan Parks maintaining a standard that will protect residents Committee has not worked well, largely due to the and the conditions in which they live. The Bill does vested interests to which I referred. Several that, and the government is pleased that it has members of the committee have welcomed its bipartisan support. abolition. In any case, the committee's work in developing regulations has been completed and it is Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning) - I now the government's intention to ensure that the thank the honourable member for Carrum on behalf regulations operate effectively. The simplified of the opposition and the honourable member for registration system will remove the complex Mornington for their support for the Bill. Firstly, the licensing structure provided for in Part 6 of the Act. honourable member for Carrum said that draft regulations have not been made available to the The abolition of the Caravan Parks Committee opposition. That seems to be out of character with means that the Caravan Parks Referees Board will the Minister for Local Government and possibly is have to be restructured. It comprises members of the an oversight or the observance of some earlier Caravan Parks Committee and no-one will be government instruction that is no longer available to form the board. The Bill will enable the appropriate. Certainly in other divisions of the Minister as the need arises to select skilled members department it has been made perfectly clear to of the public to deal with the appeal rights of departmental officers that they are to include residents. members of the opposition in the availability of information. That apparently was not necessarily the The honourable member for Carrum referred to the policy of the previous government, but I am not regulations and I shall leave the Minister for commenting about the policy of the previous Planning to deal with the substantive response, but I government. I am saying that I shall make note the honourable member's interest because, as a representations on behalf of the honourable member former Minister for Police and Emergency Services, for Carrum and on behalf of the opposition to ask if he is aware of the requirements for fire prevention in the draft regulations can be made available at the caravan parks. It is an important issue that cannot be earliest opportunity. ignored. Fire hazards in caravan parks are greater than those in residential areas, simply because of the Having said that, I admit that it seems totally construction of mobile homes and caravans and the inappropriate to take advantage of the fact that the propensity of caravan park owners, because of the honourable member has not been given the draft lack of regulations, to place caravans too close regulations by referring to detailed regulations together. A fire in a caravan park can be a horror about fire fighting, especially draft regulation No. 18. story. I accept the point made by the honourable member for Carrum that the way in which it is drafted may Proposed regulation No. 18 deals with fire not be appropriate. I shall direct that to the attention prevention and places a requirement on caravan of the Minister, because the regulation states that it park owners to provide firefighting facilities to the must be to the satisfaction of the council. satisfaction of the local council, and that will also involve either the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board That satisfies the honourable member for or the Country Fire AuthOrity. The proposed MOrnington but does not satisfy the honourable regulations require caravan park owners to provide member for Carrum, who asked what role the sufficient space between and around dwellings for Country Fire Authority or the Metropolitan Fire access by firefighting equipment. Responsibility for Brigade would have in a matter if it were merely to this important matter will be where it should be, the satisfaction of the council. I shall offer to my with local government. I am confident that local Ministerial colleague, the Minister for Local AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL

1764 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993

Government, the good and technical advice of the regulations made available earlier is not continued director of building control. We do not want to get or repeated. into that area but, nevertheless, with respect to fixed buildings the director of building control has a Motion agreed to. relationship with both fire services which enables him to assist in redrafting their regulations. The Read second time. regulation may be able to be redrafted to say "to the satisfaction of the council after consultation with the Passed remaining stages. appropriate" - or some other form of words. The honourable member for Carrum has made a good AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL pOint. Second reading With regard to the $100 fee, which took me by surprise, the honourable member for Carrum is Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of Mr I. W. entirely correct. I discovered the departmental notes SMITH (Minister for Finance). say "Possible questions in debate" and then asks the question and gives me the answer. The answer is Mr BAKER (Sunshine) - The Bill amends the that the fees for appeals are not the subject of the regulation-making provision of the Audit Act. At Bill; they will be set by regulation. That said, the first glance it is a matter of technicality, but it gives amount proposed in the draft regulations has been rise to some broader issues that relate to audit given careful consideration. The answer then covers functions and especially to the way in which vexatious litigants, draft regulations and so on. government tenders are handled and are seen to be handled. It is very much a plank of the Westminster The honourable member for Carrum made a good tradition that any suggestion of collusion or point. If a fee for access to the Administrative favouritism in the handing out of government Appeals Tribunal were to be set at a level vastly tenders must be avoided and that the community lower than $100, why would it be $100 in this field must feel assured and secure that no-one with inside when in many cases those involved are the poorest influence within the political counsel of a people or the people with the lowest disposable or government or within the bureaucratic counsel of a uncommitted cash income? I shall direct that to the government should have an opportunity of unduly, attention of the Minister. Although it is reasonable to unfairly and improperly influencing the awarding of have heavy fees in respect of caravan park government business. proprietors who wish to challenge and take matters for adjudication, the honourable member makes a Even in these days when the disciples of economic fairly telling point that the victim of some rationalism invoke the false god of small inappropriate behaviour by the proprietor, whether government, it is clear that government is here to municipal, government department or private stay in all modem societies. Since the depression in owner of a caravan park, may, with good reason, all societies around the world, the size of economic want to challenge that behaviour and should not be activity that is governed and given over to deterred by a threshold fee that puts it out of reach. government has been Significantly on the increase. I think that market is somewhere around the It may be that it is covered in general terms or magnitude of $27 billion to $28 billion in Australia. perhaps with a discretion in the Minister or some other officer to dispense with the fee in an With economic activity and business opportunities appropriate case. Therefore the vexatious are kept of that magnitude it is important that the out and the genuine are assisted, and I am sure that community and service providers competing for is what the honourable member for Carrum desires. that business feel some sense of assurance that tenders will be adjudged on criteria that are honest I shall certainly bring to the attention of my and equitable and that those who provide the tender Ministerial colleague in the other place the matters that fits the specifications, such as the best at the raised in the debate and see whether I can get the least cost, can in the normal course of events safely department to make appropriate copies of the draft assume that their bid will be successful. regulations available to the opposition both here and in another place, if that is the honourable member's The opposition has been briefed on this matter, for wish, or through him to the opposition so that the which I am most grateful, and I understand the need discourtesy shown by not having had the draft for this amendment has been brought to the AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1765 attention of the government by the Chief officers of the Department of Finance that the Parliamentary Counsel. opposition intended when the Bill was debated in this House to seek an assurance on that and ask that Honourable members who are new to the House the proposed regulations be tabled in the course of may be interested to know that we have a tradition the debate. in this place, and the Victorian style has been that it is important to have all authority in the heads of The Minister for Industry and Employment, who is power of legislation. Our Parliamentary draftsmen at the table, may care to do that during this debate. have over time evoked, established, encouraged, On the other hand he may wish to retain the option fostered and really stood firmly behind the concept of ensuring that happens when the Bill is debated in that where there is any element of doubt the heads another place. of power must be strengthened. That is in contradistinction to the practice that I understand The Bill is particularly relevant in the light of operates in most other States in Australia and in the questions that have been raised recently in Commonwealth. Victoria has been a bit more Parliament as to the validity of contracts entered into black-letter about that, which I think is a good thing; for media exposure and publicity to market the it is part of our tradition. I understand from the Employee Relations Act. That is a matter that is close briefing I received that that is what this Bill seeks to to the heart of the Minister at the table. follow. Honourable members will recall that on Thursday, The Victorian Supreme Court has also taken up the 29 April the Leader of the Opposition asked the tradition and, whenever issues have been taken Premier a question without notice in which he before it, it has usually looked to the heads of power sought information about contracts made by the and insisted that they be reinforced to ensure Department of the Premier and Cabinet for an protection, Parliamentary overview and control of amount alleged to be $780 000 for an advertising the way the bureaucracy goes about its work. campaign on the Employee Relations Act. The Leader of the Opposition sought an assurance from It is the view of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel the Premier that State Tender Board approval for that the existing regulation-making powers with those contracts had been sought and that due regard to the State Tender Board's operations are process had been followed. insufficient for the Treasury regulations that have been promulgated and established and that are, in The Premier did not offer a solid response to that effect, in use. The rather alarming effect of that is question, but seized upon the opportunity to point that the existing Treasury regulations are arguably to the failings of previous governments in this beyond the scope of the Act and therefore may be regard. The Premier did, however, give an assurance deemed to be unlawful. If a case were taken to the that he would examine the matter and report back to Victorian Supreme Court it would seem highly the House. He then indicated that the government probable to the opposition and, I understand, to the had been able to achieve significant savings by government, that on precedent the court would hold establishing a master contract for the marketing of that they were unlawful. information in relation to government activities. I do not want to make cute points about whether that is The current Treasury regulations were renewed only sinister or is a misuse of government funds. I was in with the benefit of a Premier's certificate and with a former life the Minister for Property and Services the condition that they have a sunset date as at the for a brief period and I was in my own way seeking end of June 1993. It is, therefore, essential that the to establish efficiencies of that kind. So I would not Audit Act be amended so that the new regulations criticise the government for seeking to make the can be made effective from 1 July 1993. The taxpayer's dollar go further in that regard. However, opposition will support and endorse that view. when one is running an omnibus operation of that kind there is a danger that it will interfere with the Officers from the Department of Finance, who requirement for due tender processes to be met. graciously provided a briefing for the opposition, have advised that there is no intention to vary Without any intention of making political points I existing State Tender Board requirements when the ask the Minister for Industry and Employment to new regulations are made. At that meeting the examine that issue and ensure that, in the opposition spokesperson on finance matters in government's own interests and in the interests of another place, the Honourable David White, told the the taxpayers' security, that matter is attended to AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL

1766 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 and that the test is run over it to determine whether The opposition does not wish that the amendment to it interferes with the requirement for accountability. the Act should provide the government with an avenue for resolving difficulties which might arise if My next point is a little more overtly political. There indeed those involved have failed to comply with is surely soon to be discussion at government level tender board requirements as set out in existing on the funding and level of costs associated with Treasury regulations dealing with contracting for meeting the Premier's boast and pronouncement the two consultancies I mentioned, or any other made at the start of the inquiry by the Victorian consultancies. Commission of Audit and recently reinforced by the Premier that the government proposes to deliver to I am sure that the Acting Speaker and the Minister at every Victorian home a synopsis of the findings in the table would be aware from their reading of a the commission's report. That will obviously be a view that is emerging in modern government circles glossy brochure prepared with professional and the world in general: a view of a nation of assistance. I have commented publicly that I feel this citizen power and a return to the rights of citizens of brochure is totally unnecessary; its relationship to the community. As I read it, it is a reaction to the the Bill is such that it could be more of the same and impact of the globalisation of our economies and the in kind with the government's stance in this Bill. fact that sovereign States do not have readily Based on a conservative estimate that there are available authority over quite a lot of activity that 1.8 million to 2 million households in Victoria and traditionally was able to be confined. That is the that the cost of preparation and distribution of a nature of the changing world; people have to live glossy brochure of that kind -regardless of its with that. content and whether it is a misuse of government funds in a political advertising or marketing Many Victorian companies are leading the way in exercise - would be about $1 a brochure, using that area of actiVity. As a reaction to that view more simple arithmetic the cost would be about and more governments are looking to ensure that $1.8 million to $2 million. citizens have their rights protected and those strong demands for accountability are checked to meet I am concerned that when I examine the Budget modern circumstances and to ensure that citizens Papers of the most recent of the bimonthly Budgets feel secure. that we seem to have had - another one is coming up soon; this one might fill in the numbers for the I read a speech of the Right Honourable John Smith, next year for which honourable members might a ubiquitous name for an Englishman, for the new recall there was a big blank - I will find a nice sum, Leader of the British Labor Party. Mr Smith was turned around and massaged a little. considering the notion of citizen power and referred to the proposition of a professor of one of the red There is no provision in the accounts for expenditure brick universities. for this purpose; certainly there is no provision for expenditure of this magnitude. The whiff of the This professor described the new magistracy, those sceptic in me leaps to the conclusion that that money consultants who are very much part and parcel of may be won in a peculiar way and, more relevantly, government life, especially under this government that the tender board process will be ignored and as it pursues its avowed intention to contract out as the marketing authority will be called in for its next many traditional government functions as possible sizeable contract. in the marketing area or whatever. The new magistracy will arrive here and its presence will be Other business people in the community may feel felt more and more. that, as taxpayers and citizens of Victoria and as business operators within the State, they should be Mr Smith said that there was a serious need to check entitled to compete on a fair basis for that business, accountability procedures because these people are secure in the knowledge that the tender board gladiators and cowboys in some senses; they are not process will protect them from any favouritism, subject to traditional notions that have been built exclusion or other arrangement that defies that into the Westminster traditions of bureaucratic life, tradition. They can hardly feel comfortable with the traditions which have evolved since the time of Pitt arrangement. I ask the Minister for Industry and the Younger. Employment, who is at the table, to consider that when he makes his closing remarks on the Bill. Those traditions have been carried over within government in Victoria. In the haste to make change, AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1767 whether acceptable or appropriate - that is not the This Bill and a number of Bills to be debated next issue - it is necessary to stop at times like this and week are examples of the good work of the for all, particularly government Ministers, to committee. I hope the advice of the committee is also consider other elements, for example, followed with regard to legislation that affects the pseudomorphism. rights of Victorians. I refer specifically to the Sentencing (Amendment) Bill to be debated next A pseudomorph is a geological form which does not week. change its shape but chemically changes inside, so what you see is not what you get. The best example Regulations governing the tendering process are of a pseudomorph is the car. When the car was extremely important for the protection of the introduced it was thought that it would allow us to taxpayer because it is the taxpayer who suffers if travel faster from point A to point B and that we government - particularly bureaucrats - are able actually might be able to travel from point A to to deal in such a way that there is no regulation of point C, which would not normally have been the outside contractors or consultants. That can lead considered. It did much more than that. It took us to corruption and special deals for friends and mates from point A to point Z, produced suburban and the like, and that is something that should be supermarkets, produced cultural changes in the way avoided. in which children relate to their parents, and produced the nuclear family. That is a good example The regulations become even more important in of what is known as a cultural pseudomorph. That is light of this government's policy to contract out particularly relevant to changes of the kind in the many services. Already the government has set in legislation, no matter how minor they may appear place the process for contracting out correctional from one perspective. There are equal and opposite services and consultancies to advise the Department reactions that need to be tested and considered. of Education and other departments of economic and financial matters. That sort of advice was I commend the government for taking up the advice previously given by public servants, who are subject of the Parliamentary Counsel quickly and putting to Public Service regulations. Those regulations do this matter right. The opposition supports the Bill not apply to outside contractors. willingly, save for those brief comments, observations and minor criticisms. Yesterday the Victorian Commission of Audit appeared to encourage the government to contract Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - As the out even more services. The executive summary of honourable member for Sunshine pointed out, this is the audit commission's report states: a short Bill but it is important not only because of its effect on cultural pseudomorphs but also for its The government should see itself as having a more general application to government responsibility to purchase services on behalf of the administration and protection of the taxpayer. community, rather than necessarily providing those services itself. The Bill is necessary because of the concern that has been raised during the past year about the validity The audit commission recommended that the public of Treasury regulations. That issue has been raised sector be restructured according to that policy. I am by the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee, concerned about that recommendation, and it must among others. As a member of that committee I be considered when dealing with matters such as the congratulate the government for responding to the Tender Board and the Treasury regulations that concerns that have been raised about the timely apply to outside consultants. introduction of the legislation. It is a matter of where one draws the line. Although The Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee some services can be provided best by outside performs an important function in raising these consultants, others are best provided by public issues, and that leads to better legislation and servants. The government is drawing the line too far administration in Victoria. Although a degree of in the direction of outside consultants, which is jocularity is sometimes associated with the workings dangerous for many areas, including one I am of the committee, all its members, particularly the particularly interested in - the criminal justice chairman, the honourable member for Doncaster, system. work hard to provide information that will be of benefit to this House. AUDIT (TENDER BOARD) BILL

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This House has passed a Bill allowing the danger of corruption because it is pOSSible for privatisation of correctional services. Where does it bureaucrats to give jobs to their mates with no stop? Will it be the court system next? Will outside scrutiny of their actions. magistrates be paid by the hour? Perhaps consultants will be brought in just to decide the odd Some of the services charged for by supposedly case? separate consultancies in the Coopers and Lybrand report are the same. For example, technical editing is The Treasury regulations provide some regulation used as the basis for a claim in at least two cases. I that may otherwise be missing. The regulations of would be most concerned if government agencies the Tender Board are based on the value of a were to adopt a procedure of avoiding Treasury contract. If a contract is worth more than $10 000 regulations - the very regulations the Bill seeks to three quotes must be obtained. If the contract is for validate - by dividing contracts into smaller services worth more than $50 000 the Treasury amounts below the magical $50 000 limit. regulations set out detailed provisions for the process that must be followed, and that is under the The honourable member for Sunshine expressed control of the Tender Board. concerns he had about the advertising budget for the Employee Relations Act. It appears that there has The tenders must be advertised and there must be a been a breach of Treasury regulations in that case. proper opening and consideration of them. Finally, The invoices I have been able to obtain under there must be a contract with the tendering party. It freedom of information legislation show that the is important to follow that process - it is the law. I total cost to government for advertising the would be concerned if the government were not legislation is $786 000. That seems an extraordinary complying with that process.The State audit amount of money to be spent on an Act which the commission has engaged numerous consultants - Minister has said will be amended anyway and its budget for consultancies is $600 000. That is an which as a result of the move to Federal awards will extraordinarily large amount. Given the money cover even fewer Victorian workers in the future. involved in consultancies, the audit commission The information I have received under FoI about should follow the proper tendering processes. invoices and their amounts is as follows: DDB However, when one examines the situation it Needham Advertising, $390 078; Badjar Pty Ltd, appears that tenders have not been called for the $9022; Badjar Pty Ltd, $10 139; Badjar Pty Ltd, work of the various consultants. The reason appears $12 687; Badjar Pty Ltd, $52 500; Detail Printing Pty to be that the same firm has been employed to Ltd, $180 487; and Badjar Pty Ltd, $131 539, making undertake a number of separate tasks, all of which a total of $786 452. I ask the Minister whether the happen to cost less than the magic $50 000. Treasury regulations were complied with. Those figures are not even close to the $50 000 limit; many Coopers and Lybrand, a firm of accountants, has exceed that amount by a significant margin. provided consultancy services to the Victorian Commission of Audit as follows: assistance in Recently in the House the Premier was asked preparation of financial information, $12 000; whether Tender Board approval had been obtained provision of financial consolidation software, and he said he would try to ascertain whether it had. $13 000; work on financial accountability within the It appears from correspondence I have received Victorian public sector, $30 000; technical editing under FoI that Tender Board approval was not and preparation of summary report, $24 340; further obtained. The letter from the Department of the accounting advice, $19 600; and further technical Premier and Cabinet advises that it has been unable editing at $24 340. to locate any documents in the department relating to State Tender Board approval for the engagement It is readily apparent that the total amount charged of firms involved in the advertising campaign. by Coopers and Lybrand far exceeds $50 000. By dividing the work into seven separate items the Mr Gude - Who is the letter from? Tender Board process is avoided. That is not a proper approach because it may well be adopted in Mr THWAITES - The Department of the every case. A consultant could simply avoid the Premier and Cabinet. The advice I received from the Tender Board regulations by sending two invoices, Department of Business and Employment is that all one for the first part of the work and one for the advertising matters relating to the Employee second. That avoids the intent and the spirit of the Relations Act were handled by tlle Department of Treasury regulations. The process is fraught with ADJOURNMENT

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1769 ------the Premier and Cabinet, not by the Department of area will not in any way dwindle should the Business and Employment. government check retrospectively the number of times agencies - and I am sure the honourable Although I support the intent of the Bill, its intent member for Sunshine will not have been involved and spirit are undermined if the regulations are not through any agency for which he was responsible - complied with. have done this in the past.

Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and The honourable member for Sunshine raised a Employment) - The honourable members for matter which I have some difficulty in knowing the Sunshine and Albert Park have offered their support best way to handle about the tabling of the for the proposed legislation. They have regulations. I do not have an instruction from the constructively identified the reasons for the measure Minister for Finance on the matter at this stage, but I and the changes required. They have identified will take the matter up with the Minister to ascertain correctly the role and work of the Chief whether the regulations can be made available to Parliamentary Counsel and the Scrutiny of Acts and both· the honourable member and the shadow Regulations Committee in that area and paid due Minister for Finance, the Honourable David White, recognition to both for their identification of issues, while the Bill is between here and another place, and have credited the government for having which I understand will fulfil his requirements. I responded. assure the House that the direction and intent of the legislation are in the spirit of the second-reading The opposition raised matters concerning the speech and in the spirit in which both opposition promotion of the Employee Relations Act, a matter members have made their contributions. that has already been raised with the Premier. As I understand it, all of the promotional material has Motion agreed to. come through a central agency and the Premier will be in contact with the Leader of the OppOSition, who Read second time. raised the question in the House and will respond to him. Passed remaining stages.

The honourable member for Sunshine raised Mr Leighton - Mr Speaker, I direct your concerns about the need to check the validity and attention to the state of the House. controls on tenders where outsourcing and privatisation are taking place. There may be a need Quorum fonned. to increase the external audit process when one moves into those jurisdictions. Obviously, in the ADJOURNMENT longer term, a subjective judgment will be made whether this or that facility is contained within Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and government or outsourced in some way. It is clear Employment) - I move: from the direction the government enunciated prior to the election and which it is travelling in at present That the House do now adjourn. that it believes greater efficiencies and effectiveness can be brought to public administration and will Future use of former Geelong Gaol bring benefit to the community in terms of the cost of the service by breaking up a number of agencies Mr LONEY (Geelong North) -In the absence of and having functions that are currently carried out the Minister for Corrections, I direct to the attention by government carried out externally. Again, the of the Minister for Industry and Employment the fullness of time will test all of that, and I understand future uses for the old Geelong Gaol. Some time ago clearly what is being said by both members. the Minister announced a review and feasibility study of the future use of the gaol site and The honourable member for Albert Park referred to associated facilities. That announcement generated the capacity of agencies to avoid the Tender Board widespread interest in the Geelong community requirements by going under the $50 000 limit. He about the uses to which the site may be put - from expressed concerns, I think validly, about the the exhibibon, storage and sale of local wines to the prospect of agencies breaking up tendering unbelievable suggestion that the old gaol be arrangements specifically for the purpose of reopened and again used as a prison. Each avoiding that limit. I hope his enthusiasm for this ADJOURNMENT

1770 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 suggestion was discussed widely throughout the develop subdivisions at costs comparative with Geelong community. those applying in New South Wales?

I understand that the review and feasibility study Intellectually disabled adults has been held and that the Minister has received submissions. The Geelong community is interested Mrs GARBUTI (Bundoora) - In the absence of in the range of submissions, and many would like to the Minister for Community Services I direct a know the suggested uses of the old Geelong Gaol matter to the attention of the Leader of the House.lt and the role that the local community may play in its is part of the pattern that the Minister for development. Community Services should not be in the House because the matter I raise is about his lack of I ask the Minister whether he is prepared to make response to a number of letters written to him by the available the number and content of the submissions Ivanhoe-Diamond Valley Centre for intellectually received about the possible future uses of the site disabled adults. The centre has sought my assistance and facilities. What procedures will he adopt in to try to get the Minister to reply to correspondence. dealing with the submissions, and how will the local Last night in this place a similar matter was raised community be consulted? Will he soon make the by the honourable member for Preston; the Minister submissions available to the Geelong community? had not replied to correspondence from another group for six months. That group was kept waiting, Electricity supplies to urban subdivisions as the Ivanhoe-Diamond Valley Centre is being kept waiting. One has the feeling that the Minister is Mr A. F. PLOWMAN (Benambra) - The matter I hiding in more ways than one. raise is for the attention of the Minister for Energy and Minerals. The centre runs a regional adult activity centre in Macleod for 80 clients. It also provides an outreach Mr Hamilton - You hardly know him! service for the Caloola Training Centre and operates two 24-hour community residential units. It is not a Mr A. F. PLOWMAN - I wish to ask the small centre; it is an important regional facility that Minister about the supply of electricity to urban offers a variety of programs to a range of divisional sites. The reason for the cost increase is intellectually disabled adults. the need for full cost recovery for the supply of electricity to the subdivisional sites, as is the case The centre wishes to discuss its concerns with the across the border with the supply of all energy. Minister. It wrote to the Minister on 2 December last year and 24 February and 29 March this year. Apart In the past the SEC had a monopoly for the supply from an acknowledgment saying that a response of electricity and there is evidence of an oversupply will be forwarded as soon as pOSSible, the centre has of teams of workers to carry out specific tasks. It is received no reply from the Minister. often the case that where a job could be carried out during the week, it is carried out over the weekend Will the Minister respond to the requests in the three to attract overtime rates. Therefore the cost of letters which have gone unanswered and to the developing urban subdivisions in some areas is group's request for a meeting to discuss their greatly increased. The recent substantial increase in concerns? electricity rates in Victoria has been sadly evident in my electorate, where the difference between the cost Clover growers of development on one side of the river, in New South Wales, and the other side of the river, in Mr JASPER (Murray Valley) - I direct to the Victoria, is extremely obvious. attention of the Minister for Agriculture the clover growers in north-eastern Victoria. Last month the Little or no warning of the increase was given to Minister visited my electorate and met with a developers and, as a result, in many cases the number of clover growers at the Rutherglen developers have found it impossible to pass on the Research Institute who expressed concern about the costs to the final consumer. Will the Leader of the future support to be provided by the Department of House, in the absence of the Minister, investigate Agriculture for their small but important industry. what action can be taken to overcome the problem There is only one staff member at the Department of and how cost savings can be passed on to property Agriculture'S office in Benalla who certifies the seeds developers in Victoria who wish to be able to produced by growers. That person may be taking a ADJOURNMENT

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1771 redundancy package, which means that the office comments to the attention of the Minister for Small will be left without an appropriate officer to service Business. I ask the Minister for Small Business to clover producers in both north-eastern Victoria and clarify how he will abolish the Small Business the Goulbum Valley. Development Corporation. Will he do it by legislation, Ministerial statement, press release, The Minister will also be aware that changes to the media conference or public meeting? seed certification program are being considered. It has been proposed that the Bumley laboratory be One of the difficulties is that the Small Business closed by 30 September 1993. The department is Development Corporation was established in 1976 discussing whether future certification will be by an Act of Parliament, so it is possible that the carried out either in New South Wales or by a Minister may introduce a Bill to repeal the private facility in Victoria. corpora tion.

It is important for seed and clover growers to know The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable that the Minister for Agriculture supports them. Will member caIUlot ask for legislation. the Minister assure the people in my electorate that they will receive continued assistance from the Mr LEIGHTON -I am not asking for legislation. Department of Agriculture for seed certification and I am indicating that the Minister has a number of that staff will be provided in the north-eastern part options. The Minister issued a press release in March of the State to service growers in the area? this year which said that the corporation would be revitalised. Abolishing the corporation is a fuIUly Small Business Development Corporation way of revitalising it!

Mr LEIGHTON (Preston) - I raise a matter for I know the Minister is embarrassed, given that he the attention of the Minister for Small Business. As issued a policy document about the corporation he is not present for the debate on the motion for the which said at page 13 that the commission would be adjournment of the sitting - just as he has not been retained, but he was rolled in Cabinet by the Premier. on any night this week, having on some occasions left the Chamber as soon as the debate was called The small business community knows the Minister on - I ask that the Leader of the House direct my had agreed to the representations of the corporation comments to the attention of the Minister. that it should be retained, but, as I said earlier, he was rolled by the Premier. Honourable members interjecting. I understand that the Minister is reluctant to debate Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and the issue in a public forum, but he should make a Employment) - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, it statement rather than allow the term of the board of is clear from the interjections of honourable the corporation to expire on 30 June, because that members that they are offended by the remarks will create a messy situation. The Minister has an made by the honourable member for Preston, who obligation to say publicly what he will do. said that the Minister for Small Business has not been present during the adjournment debate on any HIB vaccine night this week. That is inaccurate, and I ask you to ask the honourable member to withdraw the remark. Mr MAUGHAN (Rodney) -I direct to the attention of the Minister for Health the provision of Mr LEIGHTON (Preston) - On the point of the vaccine used for immunising young children order, Mr Speaker, my understanding of previous against the HIB virus, which causes meningitis. rulings is that it is up to the member concerned to take exception to the remark. Municipalities have been providing the service at a cost to clients. The City of Echuca has been charging The SPEAKER - Order! Any honourable $25 a shot for the vaccine. Rumours have been member may take offence at any words spoken by circulating for some time that the Commonwealth another. I ask the honourable member for Preston to government will place the vaccine on the free list. In withdraw that remark. other words, it would be on the immunisation schedule free list. Mr LEIGHTON (Preston) -I withdraw. I ask the Minister for Industry and Employment to direct my ADJOURNMENT

1772 ASSEMBLY Friday. 7 May 1993

A press release from the Commonwealth Minister Optus tower for Aged, Family and Health Services published in yesterday's Age said that the Commonwealth was Mr WEIDEMAN (Franks ton) - In the absence of unable to fulfil its promise to introduce a rebate the Minister for Education I raise a matter for the system from 1 April. attention of the Minister for Industry and Employment. Optus Communications is attempting I ask the Minister to clarify whether municipalities to build a 90-metre tower on the Mornington such as the City of Echuca, which needs to purchase Peninsula to be used as a translator for its telephone vaccine immediately, will be provided with free service. It negotiated with the Frankston council to vaccine by the Department of Health and erect the tower at either Beauty Park or Humphries Community Services or whether municipalities or Road. The council met with people in the vicinity families will have to claim rebates directly from the and was able to convince Optus not to construct the Commonwealth. It is an important matter and a tower in that region. number of municipalities require clarification from the Minister. I seek her advice on this important A large number of telephone callers have directed to issue. my notice the fact that Optus has moved its attention one block away to Canadian Bay Road. A number of Insurance cover for public servants residents are concerned tha t the tower and discs will be placed in the grounds of the Mount Eliza High Mr MICALLEF (Springvale) - I direct to the School. My secretary rang the school and was told attention of the Minister for Industry and by the headmaster that the matter is now being Employment a memo distributed to all staff of his negotiated with the Shire of Momington, which has department by a company called Australasia responsibility for that area. The school's grounds are Marketing Investments which refers to the changes large - 6 or 8 acres - and because they are near the to WorkCover introduced on 1 December last year Mount Eliza central business district residents are and especially to journey accidents. concerned that the tower will infringe on their privacy. Staff working in the Department of Business and Employment are not covered for journey accidents I ask the Minister to ensure that the council and the under the WorkCover scheme. The memo offers school consult with the residents because so far no employees in the department an insurance policy consultation has taken place. I understand from the covering death and/ or permanent disablement due headmaster that the valuation given by the to a journey accident up to an amount of $100 ()()() Department of Education for the rent on the ground and loss of income for 100 per cent of pre-injury to be occupied by the tower is $4000 a year and that income up to a maximum of $800 a week, payable that would be paid to the school. If we are to have for up to 104 weeks. Optus towers all over school grounds and throughout the metropolitan area the government The memo states: should develop a policy on them and should take account of the concerns of residents and school These benefits clearly offer substantial peace of mind to communities. those enrolled and are currently available only to employees of this department for only $8 per year. Jacana railway station

The memo asks for the cheques to be made payable MrTHOMSON (Pascoe Vale) -In the absence to a firm called Arrowsmith and Petruccelli and is of the Minister for Public Transport I raise a matter signed by Daffydd Wiesner-Ellix. for the attention of the Minister for Industry and Employment. The users of the Broadmeadows line, Public servants are concerned that a private particularly those who use the Jacana station, face company has been allowed to tout for business in the problem of unstaffed railway stations. Several the Public Service. They were apparently told the Jacana rail commuters have been issued with fines memo had been distributed with the Minister's for not having tickets even though the station was permission. I ask the Minister whether he authorised unstaffed at the time they wanted to buy them. the distribution of the memo and whether he supports its contents. Mr Alex Kubalsky and Mr Tony Markulin were both placed in that position, and Mr Markulin was fined and harassed over the matter. I know the staffing of ADJOURNMENT

Friday,7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1773 railway stations is a difficult issue and that it has not been approved by his department and that a been possible for this or previous governments to regeneration and replanting program involving the provide station staff at all times. Nevertheless, it species acacia melanoxylon and melaleuca ericifolia seems to be a matter of great concern that because would be implemented. stations are unmanned people are unable to purchase tickets, particularly in the morning peak In July of last year Mr Lovelock again complained to period, and are therefore at risk of being fined. lbat the department and the board about the failure to must act as a disincentive to patronage on the carry out any regeneration or replanting. He also Broadmeadows and other rail lines. complained about the failure to remove the dead trees that had been poisoned almost two years Over the years the Jacana railway station has been earlier and explained that the failure to replant had the subject of extensive vandalism and graffiti and exposed tree ferns along the river bank to damage has been allowed to run down. It is important that from the hot summer sun. the Minister consider staffing the station. I understand from comments made in a newspaper In OCtober 1992 Mr Lovelock again lodged a report that the Public Transport Corporation is complaint and received absolutely no response from examining the possibility of providing staff at the either Melbourne Water or the Department of station for the morning peak period. I encourage the Conservation and Natural Resources. Earlier today Minister to do that. Mr Lovelock assured me that he had still received no response from Melbourne Water or the department. I also ask the Minister to develop a more satisfactory He is extremely dissatisfied with the failure of either system of dealing with people who, although they body to replant as promised or to repair the damage wished to purchase tickets, have been fined because along the river's edge. He would like to see better they were not able to do so. cooperation between the department and Melbourne Water. River works near Powelltown The problem experienced by Mr Lovelock Mr McARTHUR (Monbulk) - I raise a matter demonstrates a clear need for better cooperation for the attention of the Minister for Natural between the two bodies and landowners along the Resources, who has an excellent record, as do all river's edge when Melbourne Water intends to carry current government Ministers, of attendance during out improvement works. the debate on the adjournment motion. I understand that is a novelty in this House. The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member's time has expired. The matter I raise concerns a long-running argument between a Mr Christopher Lovelock, a resident in Bungled drug raids my electorate, Melbourne Water and the former Department of Conservation and Environment, now Mr PANDAZOPOULOS (Dandenong) - In the the Department of Natural Resources. Mr Lovelock, absence of the Minister for Police and Emergency who owns a property that fronts on to the Little Services, I direct to the attention of the Minister for Yarra River in the Powelltown area, was notified in Industry and Employment, who is at the table, an 1990 by the then Board of Works of river article on the front page of yesterday's Age entitled improvement works that entailed employees of the ''Police bungle more drug raids". It is of great board poisoning willow and similar species of trees concern that three such drug raids have been along the river bank and on the river reserve. bungled; they have caused embarrassment to our police community. I am a supporter of the work of In February 1991 Mr Lovelock wrote to the Board of police. It is of great concern to me that if these Works and the Department of Conservation and incidents continue to happen the respect of police in Environment complaining about the damage caused the community will be undermined. during the destruction of the willow trees, action that he considered to be a desecration of the river The latest incident occurred in my electorate. A bank area, and pointing out that the work had been young Vietnamese family and a middle-aged Polish carried out away from the river's edge. In March family had their homes entered by plain-clothes 1991 he was advised by the then assistant regional police. The occupants were handcuffed and their manager of the Department of Conservation and premises were checked. The Polish middle-aged Environment that the Board of Works operation had family visited my office yesterday morning. They ADJOURNMENT

1774 ASSEMBLY Friday, 7 May 1993 were quite concerned about this happening to them. estates on weekends and accruing overtime People from both these families come from countries payments as a result. where human rights are not treated with the same respect as in Australia. As I said, costs have been increased to reflect full cost recovery of electricity connection. This would Like all victims of crime, people can suffer all sorts be of some concern to the honourable member for of mental and health problems when their properties Benambra and other members in the House if it are broken into, particularly when they are in their were not for the fact that the government has homes at the time. The police entered the premises decided that this operation should be opened up to of the Polish family by breaking down the door. private contractors and that there should be full They did not identify themselves. The automatic competition with private contractors in providing response of the Polish gentleman was to defend his this work. family. Unfortunately, he was physically harmed by the police and tied up. In future developers who wish their estates to be wired will be able to seek tenders from private I ask: firstly, what will the government do to ensure contractors and the SEC. The SEC will have to that this sort of thing does not happen again, so that ensure that the private contractors have the expertise wellbeing in the police community is maximised; to design and administer the insulation of wiring in and, secondly, what is the intention of the Minister new estates so that safety standards are met. and the government in assisting the victims of these unfortunate incidents? The State Electricity Commission will have the responsibility to ensure that the contractors are Department of Conservation and Natural adequately trained to qualify for those Resources work in Sandringham specifications. As a service to developers the SEC electorate will make available to them a list of approved contractors. I have requested the SEC to provide me Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - I bring a with an annual list of the work undertaken by matter to the attention of the Minister for Natural contractors as opposed to SEC day labour or Resources. In the remaining 10 seconds available to contracts to satisfy me that it is no longer a closed me, I commend the Minister on the outstanding job shop, that the competition being offered by his department is doing for the people in the contractors is adequate and that costs will be kept to electorate of Sandringham. the absolute minimum.

The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable The honourable member referred to the lack of member's time has expired. notice the developers were given about the change to full cost recovery. I am advised by the SEC that Responses adequate notice was given, but as the matter has been raised I will check that with the SEC and advise Mr S. J. PLOWMAN (Minister for Energy and the honourable member accordingly. Minerals) - The honourable member for Benambra raised the matter of increased charges being levied The object of the competition in the long run is to on developers by the State Electricity Commission ensure that the cost to developers is kept to a for the wiring of housing estates. Previously the SEC minimum so that costs as a result of inefficiencies wired estates at a considerable discount to will not be passed on to developers and ultimately developers; electricity consumers around the State to the home owners of Victoria. have been subsidising developers in this exercise. The SEC has decided to look towards full cost Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for recovery in its activities. As such, it will be Agriculture) - The honourable member for Murray increasing those charges. Valley referred to seed testing, seed certification and the role of the Plant Research Institute at Burnley. I The honourable member for Benambra was have been to the institute at Burnley on a couple of concerned that in the past an excessive number of occasions and have been impressed by the work SEC personnel has been involved in this activity being done with cereal cropping trials and research when they may have been deployed elsewhere more on chemical farming and other operations. effectively and efficiently. Personnel were wiring ADJOURNMENT

Friday. 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1775

The Bumley research institute has been used as a Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Health) - The laboratory for seed testing and seed certification, honourable member for Rodney raised with me an and it has been announced that the government important public health issue concerning lflB, an intends to close that laboratory as at 30 September influenza virus which affects about 700 Australian 1993 provided that assurances are given that suitable children every year. private laboratories of an equivalent high standard will be in a position to provide timely testing In the latter part of last year the Commonwealth services for Victorian growers and seed companies. government approached the States about a vaccination program against the virus which can in The Victorian Seed Advisory Committee met on some instances cause death. The Commonwealth's 30 April this year and agreed to take a positive proposal was that it would partially fund the position to ensure that a private laboratory system program and the States would be required to pick will be established in Melbourne. One of the up the balance. Unfortunately that has become a industry concerns is the current inability for private recent practice of the Commonwealth laboratories to issue International Seed Testing government - it starts a program, indicates that it is Authority orange certificates. Those certificates are necessary, increases people's expectations and then required for export consignments of small seeds. will not fully fund it. Discussions are being held with officers from the South Australian government seed testing Mr Hamilton interjected. laboratory to put in place an auditing system that will enable orange certificates to be issued for seed Mrs TEHAN - Yes, it also involves local testing in private laboratories in Melbourne, and government. I commend officers of the Department that is being discussed with the Victorian Seed of Health and Community Services, especially Advisory Committee. Dr Chris Brook, the Director of Public Health, who has been liaising and negotiating with the The honourable member for Murray Valley also Commonwealth government. One of the best things asked about seed certification. A meeting was held to come out of the recent Federal election was a this week between officers of the Victorian and promise by the Labor Party that if it were successful . South Australian departments of agriculture with it would take over the funding of the HIB representatives from the Seed Industry Association immunisation program. of Australia and the Grains Council of Australia to explore options to develop an industry-based The matter raised by the honourable member for organisation to manage seed certification. Rodney has to a considerable extent been resolved in that the Commonwealth has said that as part of the That is an initial step in moving towards a national implementation of its promise it would fund the seed certification program. I am glad to hear by program from 1 April. The new Minister for Health, interjection the endorsement of the honourable Senator Graham Richardson, issued a press release member for Morwell. It demonstrates that the on 21 April saying he would make special interim scheme has potential. Next week I will put in place a arrangements for the immunisation program to be consultative committee to advise me on the seed available through local councils to families to whom industry and the most appropriate institutional babies had been born since 1 April. In his news framework to achieve industry management of the release he said: new certification authority by 1 July 1994 so that there will be time for the industry to work through Any State that is able to provide the vaccine will be any problems. reimbursed, and any family who paid for the vaccine after 1 April, whose child would be eligible for the The Department of Agriculture will continue to vaccination program, will be reimbursed. supply the current seed certification program and seed-testing facilities. I advise the honourable The Minister said he would be announcing details of member for Murray Valley that we would like to reimbursement arrangements for parents next week. move to a national seed certification system which The honourable member for Rodney referred to the could, in conjunction with the industry, become a City of Echuca, which has made the vaccination privately operated seed certification program. We available for families at a charge of $25. He asked will give that time to evolve. At present the whether after 1 April municipalities will receive the government has advised the industry that it would vaccine free of charge direct from the States or like to see this step achieved by 1 July 1994. ADJOURNMENT

1176 ASSEMBLY Friday,7 May 1993 whether it will be purchased by the city and been undertaken. I need to have some up-to-date reimbursement provided by the Commonwealth. information, particularly from Melbourne Water given its responsibility in that part of the river for Unfortunately, I do not have with me the details river management work. about how the procedure will be implemented. On the basis of statements made by the new Federal It is important that Mr Lovelock, the constituent of health Minister, I assure the honourable member, the honourable member for Monbulk, understand and through him, the City of Echuca, other that what has happened should never have municipalities and families, that all costs of the occurred. Certainly, the accusations made have been vaccination program for prevention of HIB for rather acrimonious but, having undertaken to babies older than two months of age will be met by poison the trees and to subsequently remove the the Commonwealth from 1 April next. debris and undertake regeneration work, the program should have been completed. I shall take If the honourable member wishes, I will obtain up the matter with Melbourne Water and provide a further details. The assurance of the payment by the response to the honourable member in due course. Commonwealth provides a great deal of certainty that the program will proceed and, what is even As things happen, in the 10 seconds allowed to him more important, that the Commonwealth will pick the honourable member for Sandringham was up the cost of that program. congratulatory of my department - and his extrasensory perception worked! I was able to I commend the efforts of Dr Brooks in negotiating a understand the matter he wished to raise. successful financial outcome for the State so that families and children can now expect regular and Given that the honourable member raised a specific free immunisations. issue, I shall pursue the matter with Melbourne Water and provide him with a response. Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Police and Emergency Services) - The honourable member for Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Geelong North asked me about the future of the old Employment) - The honourable member for Geelong Gaol. That is at present under investigation Bundoora raised a matter for the attention of the and I understand there is much interest within his Minister for Community Services about the community about its future. I shall advise the Ivanhoe-Diamond Valley Centre for intellectually honourable member further on that matter. disabled adults, which expressed concern about some letters that had been forwarded to the Ministry The honourable member for Dandenong raised a where an acknowledgment had been received but a concern about a police raid in his area which has firm response had not been forwarded. When letters been widely reported in the media. I shall seek of that nature refer to a particular situation they are advice from the Chief Commissioner of Police and usually investigated thoroughly. I assume that in her pass on a report to the honourable member. remarks the honourable member was not casting aspersions on the administration of the agency. I Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural shall raise the matter with the Minister for Resources) - The honourable member for Monbulk Community Services who, like all members of the asked about the poisoning of willow trees and government, is concerned to ensure that those in our associated work undertaken by the former society who are disadvantaged, whether Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works and intellectually or otherwise, are given every the former Department of Conservation and consideration and support. It is obviously a matter Environment at Powelltown in 1990. of concern in the honourable member's electorate.

You, Mr Speaker, will know that broken branches The honourable member for Preston raised a matter from willow trees have a habit of self-transplanting about the abolition of the Small Business into waterways, thereby causing a redirection of the Development Corporation. In his usual way he water flow and, in some instances, flooding. could not restrain himself from having a shot at the Minister instead of raising a specific issue. I assure As I understand it, the poisoning was undertaken in the honourable member that legislation will not be 1990; the plan was that the dead trees would be introduced in this sessional period to deal with the removed the following year. That work has never corporation. His criticism of the Minister and of the been completed, nor has any regeneration work policy during the election campaign is ill founded. ADJOURNMENT

Friday, 7 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1777

At that time I was the shadow Minister, not the to the attention of the Minister for Education. It is Minister. He is wrong on both counts. obvious that the honourable member for Frankston is very experienced in these matters and has got on I had the privilege of being a member of this place in to the issue very quickly. 1976 and I believe my maiden speech was on the establishment of the Small Business Development The honourable member for Pascoe Vale raised a Corporation. I was later a board member of that matter for the Minister for Public Transport corpora tion. concerning Mr Markulin, who has been fined for not purchasing a train ticket. He explained - I do not The corporation's role has been enhanced, as has think he said it in so many words - that been indicated by the Minister for Small Business, Mr Markulin was not able to purchase a ticket and it will be integrated within the department. because there were no staff at the station in the early There is support for the work of the Minister for hours of the morning when he was travelling to Small Business, who has a real feel and flair for the work. The honourable member for Pascoe Vale was requirements of small business. I have no doubt that good enough to say that the Public Transport the relationship that will be developed between the Corporation is reviewing staffing matters in that corporation and the Minister's agency will enhance area. I will raise the matter with the Minister for the services that are provided to small business. Public Transport, but in many ways I think the honourable member has foreshadowed the answer The honourable member for Springvale raised a by acknowledging that a review is taking place. matter with me about an organisation referred to as Australasia Marketing Investments and he indicated I inform the honourable member that the that a document, which he subsequently made introduction of automatic ticketing machines will available to me, had been distributed within the overcome part of that problem, and the community Department of Business and Employment which, as will benefit from their introduction. It is pleasing the honourable member knows, covers a number of that the implementation of ticketing machines was portfolios. I am advised that the document was achieved by this government - something that the distributed two or three weeks ago. It was not previous administration could not do - and that the authorised by anyone. I assure the honourable Minister for Public Transport has been able to member that it was not authorised by me, any of my achieve it through negotiation with the relevant staff or the secretary of the department. unions.

I understand the letter was circulated to a number of The government is also intent on grabbing those departments. I thank the honourable member for people - and I am in no way casting aspersions on raiSing the matter, but I am only able to inform him the constituent of the honourable member for Pascoe that the government is currently trying to track Vale -who ride on the transport system without down its origin and the basis of its distribution. The paying their dues. It is because of those people that government is concerned about how this was the transport system has incurred extensive losses allowed to happen and what people - not only the over the years. It is that same attitude that leads to company that has been naIl1ed in the letter - were dirty carriages, graffiti and the other things that the involved in the distribution of the document. community finds abhorrent on the transport system. The government is about having cleaner, efficient The honourable member for Frankston drew to the and effective transport in this State. attention of the Minister for Education the possibility of the Optus telecommunications Motion agreed to. organisation establishing towers in his electorate. He also expressed concern about the prospective House adjourned 5.59 p.m. until Tuesday, 11 May. construction of those major towers in the grounds of the Mount Eliza High School. I will draw that matter

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1779

Tuesday, 11 May 1993 have been included in the tenders currently before the authority; suffice to say that, given that this will be the largest casino in Australia, a substantial amount is involved. We can all guess at the amount of continuing revenue that will be generated, but I The SPEAKER (Hon. J. E. Delzoppo) took the chair c~ot give a specific answer. I have not sought to at 25 p.m. and read the prayer. be informed of the figures involved, nor will 1. Ultimately the decision must be made by those charged with that responsibility. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE The government will advise the House what will happen with the key money and the revenue at a MELBOURNE CASINO later stage, probably next week.

Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - I ask ECONOMIC REVITALISATION OF the Premier to advise the House how much revenue GEELONG the government estimates it will obtain from the proposed Melbourne casino over the next three Mrs HENDERSON (Geelong) - Will the financial years, commencing 1 July 1993, and for Premier inform the House of the latest initiative what purpose that money will be used by the delivered to Geelong from the coalition's government. pre-election policy document?

Mr KENNETf (premier) - I cannot inform the Mr KENNETT (Premier) - The rebuilding of Leader of the Opposition or the House of the actual Geelong is an important objective for the amount. The government, unlike the former Labor government and the community. Geelong is government, has made a decision to keep at least at Victoria's second largest city and, because of the arm's length from the process of awarding the previous government's failings, it has been hit somewhat harder than other communities, Melbo~e casino licence. The Victorian Gaming Commission and other bodies are going through the especially with the collapse of the Pyramid group process of determining the successful bidder. and the failure of the present Leader of the Opposition to exercise his responsibility to prevent Mr Roper interjected. both personal hardship and cost.

Mr KENNETf - I said "and other bodies". The The government has embarked on a rigorous program to position Geelong for the rest of the opposition's difficulty is that it is anxious and desperate. The awarding of a casino licence will be decade and the 21st century. The first initiative, the one of the most important decisions of the next 12 amalgamation and restructuring of councils, will months. When the issue first arose I instructed my now go ahead quickly as there is uniform acceptance colleagues that under no circumstances were we to by the Geelong community that it will give the area involve ourselves - Ministers or backbenchers - in extra weight and will ensure that Geelong can look the deliberations. The Victorian Casino Control forward with confidence to future prosperity. Au~ority is ~o~g an excellent job, independently, I am pleased to announce a grant of $2.3 million to and 15 not bnefing members of Parliament or relevant Ministers on anything other than issues that Deakin University so that it can acquire the land have already been made public. necessary f?r the faculties of architecture, building, art and deSign and commercial services - the Three tenders are being processed. The due redeveloped wool stores site in central Geelong. The procedure is being followed, and I expect that honourable member for Geelong and her colleagues number will be whittled down to two in the not too the honourable members for Bellarine and South distant future and ultimately one by the end of July Barwon and an honourable member for Geelong or early August. Province in another place have worked hard to have the matter resolved as quickly as possible. A Commonwealth assistance grant of $9.6 million was Various sums have been bandied about in the media by so-called experts as being the amount of key conditional on the State proViding the land for the money to be made available with the awarding of pr?ject. Ther~fore through the Better Cities project the casino licence. I have no idea of the figures that this substantial development in Geelong will go QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1780 ASSEMBLY Tuesday. 11 May 1993 ahead. The establishment of those faculties in central them. In due course the amount of revenue available Geelong will also add significant activity to the city under the various options on which tenderers have of Geelong. made proposals will be crystallised.

The Geelong community has been long awaiting this In relation to how that money is to be used, the decision. The government is pleased to provide the government will not rush into irresponsible necessary funds for the project; the redevelopment decisions as the Labor Party did when in of the wool stores site for those faculties will fulfil government. When the previous government yet another element of the government's lO-point diverted Victoria's borrowing capacity into paying plan for the economic revitalisation of Geelong. In for operating costs, Victoria suffered a long period of just on seven months the government, together with tight constraints on investment by the public sector the vast majority of the community of Geelong, has that cost the community dearly because Victoria was not only moved quickly but has moved on two starved of the capacity to make proper levels of fronts to give Geelong the opportunity of investment in the interests of the people of Victoria, rebounding quickly from the recession both through in the interests of maintaining and improving a slimmer and more effective administration and community services and in the interests of also by putting value on part of an industry that is developing economic infrastructure for a more important: education. competitive economy.

I am sure the Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, The government is carefully evaluating the Professor John Hay, will welcome the move. It will alternative possibilities. It has addressed those issues add new life and vibrancy to Geelong and, in principle and is continuing to evaluate them importantly, the works associated with further carefully. As the Premier said, he expects to make an stages of the project will lead to an expenditure of announcement in the near future. more than $26 million. When stage 1 is completed in 1995 the campus will have 400 students. For the first METTICKET time in a decade the people of Geelong are seeing what good, active and honest representation is all Mr PHILLIPS (Eltham) - I refer the Minister for about. I congratulate the honourable member for Public Transport to the MetTicket seam. Has he had Geelong for her hard work. any further waste involved in that fiaseo directed to his attention and has he considered any method of MELBOURNE CASINO recouping some of the losses from that public transport disaster? Mr BAKER (Sunshine) - Given the lack of detail in the March statement regarding forward estimates The SPEAKER - Order! I inform the honourable of revenue from the proposed casino for Melbourne, member that he cannot offer any opinion when will the Treasurer inform the House of the forward asking a question. estimates and the purpose to which that revenue will be directed? Mr BROWN (Minister for Public Transport) - I begin by dispelling the suggestion that by wearing Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I thank the this uniform I have been promoted to the position of honourable member for his question because it tram conductor. I am still only the Minister! I allows me to refute ridiculous beat-ups about lack of mentioned to my staff that I was in need of a new consistency in the government's approach to suit, but because I am having difficulty getting out important issues. of the House due to the long sitting hours, they suggested I should investigate the several hundred With regard to revenue, as the Premier has just suits which were purchased by the former made crystal clear, a bidding process is already government and which are in storage. My staff told taking place. Unlike the previous government, me that the outfits were brand new, that they had which sought to undermine projects with inevitable been stored for some years and that they had never dramatic consequences for the people of Victoria, been used. I asked what they were being used for the government is conducting, in accordance with its and was told that currently they are being used only legislation and due process, a tender system under as silverfish food. I then asked the staff what was in which tenders are currently being evaluated. I am stock. I was told that some 360 of these magnificent not aware of the proposals made by the tenderers jackets were bought by the Labor government at a nor would it be appropriate for me to be aware of total cost of $96480. I was also told that some QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, II May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1781

720 pairs of trousers were also in stock at the Public The cost to the taxpayers of Victoria of uniforms that Transport Corporation and that they had cost are sitting on shelves as silverfish food was $420 146. $90 000. Of course, the garments are made from the That is unbelievable! I asked why they cost so much best Australian wool; they are tailor made. The and was informed that because the Minister at the outfit I am wearing today is magnificent. I do not time placed a special rush order just before criticise the manufacturers of these garments. Christmas 1989 the uniforms cost more than would Fletcher Jones has done a magnificent job. But I do otherwise have been the case. Of course, to that criticise the former government for having Minister money was no object - it was other purchased them and never using them. people's money!

As one would expect with Labor's extravagance, the I make it clear that the government wanted to know list goes on. Also in stock are 800 pullovers worth what the uniforms were for. I was informed that $25600. Even this satchel, which is much better than they were Met rover uniforms. I asked, ''What are the one I own, is an example of the satchels that cost Met rover uniforms?" the government a total of $1582. It is interesting to add up the cost of this uniform, with its shirts, belts The SPEAKER - Order! I must ask the Minister and ties. I must say that the ties are very snappy! I to conclude his answer. He has been speaking for wondered for a while which Minister was involved 6 minutes. in their purchase. Mr BROWN - I was informed that the uniforms The SPEAKER - Order! I am not sure how the were for Met rovers, the conductors that were part Standing Orders apply to this situation, but J will of the MetTicket fiasco. think of something if it continues. I ask the Minister to conclude his answer. The government has unearthed another fiasco. When one considers other fiascos, such as the Mr BROWN - That was an amazing Bayside project; the 63 million scratch tickets the coincidence, I must say! The outfit I am wearing cost same Minister produced, which had a seven-month the taxpayers of Victoria the sum of $1013.65 - and use-by date but which were out of action after eight it has never been used until today! months and were all pulped - the tickets were designed to last 137 years -- An Honourable Member - Who was the Minister? Mr Kennan interjected.

Mr BROWN - That's coming! I asked, ''What Mr BROWN - The Leader of the Opposition can I do with all these men's uniforms?" I was told, asks, by interjection, 'Will we sell them?" The 'That's only half the story, you've got all the answer is yes. I am prepared to release these women's uniforms as well". The women's jackets uniforms as a pre-winter special. I will discount the cost $235 each. The Labor government spent $13 440 outfits to honourable members and members of the buying 120 skirts; $2621 buying 195 scarves; and public for a mere $1000. The ladies' outfits will be a 58 handbags - I see the honourable member for little less. Anyone who wants to purchase an outfit Oakleigh has one of those handbags with her such as the one worn today by the honourable today - that cost $1067. Naturally one would ask member for Oakleigh can have it for the bargain who was responsible for this latest -- price of $950.

Government Members - Who? Who? An honourable member interjected.

Mr BROWN - When I saw the tie I thought I Mr BROWN - Great shoes, snappy shoes! In had the answer - it is a very snappy tie! However, I conclusion, if I am not rushed off my feet for orders was told, "No, it was not him, it was Flash Jack". I tomorrow the uniforms will be used by Public said, ''Flash Jack! He is not known to me". They said, Transport Corporation staff, beginning in the "Of course he is - Diamond Jim". When I explored immediate future. the matter further they said that the Minister responsible was the Honourable James Harley I consider it an outrage that more than $4()() 000 of Kennan, QC, MLA. taxpayers' money was squandered buying outfits that were destined never to be used. Although the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1782 ASSEMBLY Tuesday. 11 May 1993 current government did not order the uniforms, it Although the government is currently reviewing the will ensure that they are used. implications of the report of the inquiry for the non-government sector, I am pleased to announce MELBOURNE CASINO today that the government has decided to increase the program subsidies for the government-school Mr ROPER (Coburg) - I ask the Minister for sector from $600 000 to $1 million. The government Sport, Recreation and Racing whether the also intends to increase the number of projects that Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism has will be eligible for subsidy under the program. For estimated the loss of revenue to the racing industry example, the government is now prepared to that will result from the development of a casino in subsidise borrowings for curriculum development, Melbourne and what undertaking the Minister has which was not available previously. received from the Treasurer that the racing industry will be compensated for that loss. My announcement today recognises the importance the government places on the program and on the Mr REYNOLDS (Minister for Sport, Recreation need to encourage school communities to become and Racing) - It is estimated that racing turnover involved in assisting their own schools to improve on the Totalizator Agency Board alone will decrease facilities and to plan for the future. by 14 to 16 per cent with the advent of a casino. No promises have been made to make up the deficiency. ROADWORKS I do not yet know whether that marked deficiency will eventuate. The honourable member for Coburg Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - I would agree that, as the proposal for a casino was refer the Treasurer to his statement to the House of made by his government when he was Minister for 4 May in answer to a question without notice on the Gaming, if anyone knows the answer to that proposed petrol levy that the government was question it should be him. conducting an analysis of proposed road building projects to determine which should proceed. Will EDUCATION INTEREST SUBSIDY the Minister advise the House whether the analysis PROGRAM has been completed and, if so, what the starting date for work on the Western bypass and the Domain Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - Will the Minister for tunnel is? Education inform the House of the progress of the government's review of the interest subsidy Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I do not know program? what point the Leader of the Opposition thinks he is making but, under this government, as happened Mr HAYWARD (Minister for Education) - I under the previous government, work for the thank the honourable member for Malvern for his Western bypass has been in train. If the Leader of question; I know he has a deep interest in education. the Opposition went from Ivanhoe to his electorate On 9 March this year I asked the Honourable David he would probably pass some of the works on his Evans, as chairman, and the Honourable Andrew way. Brideson, honourable members for North Eastern and Waverley provinces in another place, and the Mr Kennan interjected. honourable member for Malvern to conduct an inquiry into the interest subsidy program. I thank Mr STOCKDALE -If you were to go through those members for the fine work they did on the North Melbourne you would see, and if you were to inquiry. goout--

The interest subsidy program provides government Honourable members interjecting. assistance to schools that borrow money. The inquiry reported to me on 27 April and I am pleased The SPEAKER - Order! Conversation across the to announce that I have accepted its table is most disorderly. I ask the Treasurer to come recommendation to maintain and increase funding back to his answer and the Leader of the Opposition to the interest subsidy program. to remain silent.

In 1992-93 the program provided about $600 000 in Mr STOCKDALE - I can understand why the subsidy for the government school sector for Leader of the Opposition does not know where his borrowings on approximately 230 projects. electorate is and how to get there. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday. 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1783

Honourable members interjecting. The report examines changing morbidity and mortality patterns in a number of important areas, Mr STOCKDALE - Just look at him! He is what including lung cancer, heart disease, suicide and the people of Victoria are expected to vote for at the various types of accidents, as a means of reviewing next election. Just look at the faces of honourable and adjusting the allocation of the resources needed members opposite! for the treatment of disease. The report also shows the need for the collection and analysis of Honourable members interjecting. epidemiological data. To that end the department has set up a public health division that will continue Mr STOCKDALE - What an alternative! I to evaluate the role of public health facilities. The should be very surprised if they have not got sick of report shows that over the past 20 years there has him by the time of the next election. been a marked decline in the incidence of heart disease in Victoria - from 31 per cent of premature As 1 said in answer to the previous question, despite deaths down to 28 per cent. the impatience of the Leader of the Opposition, the government will in an orderly manner pursue the The statistics show a rise in the incidence of deaths decisions made on major projects, which stands in from cancer - from 16 per cent to 27 per cent of all sharp contrast to the record of the Labor deaths - which can be linked to the ageing of the government - and the people of Victoria will population. Although the causes of untimely death benefit immensely as a result. have been reduced in some areas, the incidence of death from cancer continues to increase. HEALTH STATUS REPORT The Department of Health and Community Services, Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) - Will the Minister and in particular the department's public health for Health inform the House of the studies division, under the leadership of Or Chris Brooks, published in the Victorian health status report and will continue to focus on positive outcomes for all the effect that report will have on public health in Victorians - and the publication of the first report Victoria? gives us a good basis from which to work. As a result Victorians will become aware of the strengths Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Health) - The and weaknesses of their system. We will encourage question is both pertinent and important. During the the continuation of the public health program and past couple of weeks the public health division of the ongoing collection of data that have resulted in the Department of Health and Community Services the production of documents such as this, which published the first broadly based report on the shows how we are fighting the battle against disease health status of Victorians. It is an excellent in this State. publication, which I shall make available to all members of the House. PUBLIC SECTOR SUPERANNUATION

Mr Roper interjected. Mr BAKER (Sunshine) - I ask the Minister for Finance whether the government will introduce any Mrs TEHAN - I am glad. The publication sets legislation in this sessional period with regard to out the health status of all Victorians. Obviously my public sector superannuation. If so, for which department works very efficiently. I suggested changes to superannuation will the legislation copies of the report should be handed out, and I am provide? told by the shadow Minister that the copies have been handed out and received. Full marks to the Mr I. W. SMITH (Minister for Finance) -I seem department! to remember the honourable member for Sunshine asking a similar question last week. The government The report sets out the major patterns of ill health is determined to ensure that a proper consultative and untimely death in Victoria. It is based on the process takes place. epidemiological resources in the department and shows that in areas where a sound epidemiological Honourable members interjecting. basis is available considerable advances can be made - as has been the case in the treatment of Mr I. W. SMITH - That may come as a surprise lung cancer and the victims of road accidents. to the members of the opposition who, when in QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1784 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 May 1993 government, were used to railroading their policies A government member interjected. through Parliament on to the community. Mr W. D. McGRATU - It is a good news story. The government is determined to ensure that a It is pleasing to be able to talk about good news proper process of consultation takes place. As the stories, and I hope the metropolitan media will honourable member for Sunshine will know, it is report them. essential that legislation complying with the Commonwealth Occupational Superannuation The companies involved are Kraft Foods, Tatura Standards Act be introduced, which is what the Milk Products, Snow Brand, Warrnambool government proposes to do. Shortly legislation will Allansford Cheese and Butter, Bonlac Foods and be introduced to achieve that compliance. We need Murray Goulburn. When that is added to the to restrict the growth in superannuation outlays as a upgrading of new technology, such as the setting up percentage of Budget outlays, something with which of rotary dairies, some $400 million will be invested honourable members opposite will be familiar. throughout the State, which shows the significance Nothing stands as a more stark reminder of the of the dairy industry to Victoria. Labor government's failed policies than its failure to address that obvious and emerging problem. Some $1 billion worth of dairy products will be exported through the port of Melbourne this year. Most of the interested groups involved in When talking about additional initiatives that are superannuation have asked the government for a being wldertaken, it is interesting to note that the longer period of consultation. As a result the Australian Dairy Industry Council is carrying out a government has agreed to extend the period of benchmark study of the costs of dairying, from consultation and to introduce legislation in the on-farm operations through all the stages of the spring sessional period that will curtail the growth manufacturing process to transport and shipping, of current account expenditure on superannuation. when the products leave our shores. That is being So far as the details of the compliance legislation for done to give an accurate picture of the costs this sessional period are concerned, the honourable involved so that the industry can retain its position member for Sunshine will be given those details at as the most efficient dairy industry in the world. The the appropriate time once the legislation is industry is not resting on its laurels; it is ensuring introduced. that it covers all aspects of its costs and that it adjusts its technologies so that productivity will DAIRY INDUSTRY continue to improve.

Mr TREASURE (Gippsland East) - Will the The Department of Agriculture has contributed Minister for Agriculture outline to the House the Significantly to the Target-ID program, which is Significant contribution being made by the Victorian about increasing pastoral production on dairy farms dairy industry to the wealth of Victoria, as well as to enable those farms to increase their productive the initiatives he is taking to ensure its future capacity. The aim is to increase pastoral productivity growth? by 10 per cent a year over the next five years, which will result in a $16 000 increase in income for the The SPEAKER - Order! Although the question average 9O-hectare farm. The dairy industry is doing is broad, I will allow it. the right thing by Victoria.

Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for WATER CHARGES Agriculture) - I thank the honourable member for . Gippsland East for his question; he knows the dairy Ms MARPLE (Altona) - I refer the Minister for industry is as important to the economy of his Natural Resources to the recommendations of the electorate as it is to the economy of the State. Victorian Commission of Audit to abolish concessions on water charges for aged pensioners It is interesting to examine the level of investment and low-income Victorian families. Will the Minister made by dairy companies in Victoria. Between June give the House a categorical assurance that the 1992 and July 1994 six dairy manufacturing and government will reject the proposal and retain processing companies will make investments of concessions on water charges? more than $230 million in plants throughout country Victoria. Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural Resources) - The honourable member for Altona QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1785 asked about concessions. The matter is obviously massive amount of consultation; almost every day I under consideration, and in due course the see representatives of children's agencies government will make a clear statement on what it throughout the State. Even tomorrow I will be really means. discussing child protection and other matters with experienced, senior people from the Children's CHILDREN'S COURT Welfare Association of Victoria. The government will continue to take advice, which will ensure that Mr ASHLEY (Bayswater) - Will the Minister for Victoria has the best possible child protection system. Community Services inform the House of the service to be provided at the Children's Court following the MELBOURNE CASINO amendment to the Children and Young Persons Act to enable protective services workers to represent Mr KENNAN (Leader of the Opposition) - I the department? refer the Treasurer to the power given to him in the Casino Control (Amendment) Bill, which has been Mr JOHN (Minister for Community Services)­ passed by this House, to set a premium payable by a The protection of children in this State is of casino operator for a licence. What estimates did the paramount importance to the government, and the Department of the Treasury give the Treasurer in the coalition can be rightly proud that after only seven preparation of the Bill about the premium to be paid months in office it has made many improvements to by a casino operator? the child protection system and has consulted widely to get the best possible advice and Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - A tender information to ensure that Victoria has the best process is in train that will deal with all these system for protecting children. matters. Announcements will be made when the government is in a position to indicate what The government acted decisively in introducing arrangements apply to the casino. Until that time I legislation for mandatory reporting, which was do not propose to canvass this matter which is the recently passed by Parliament. It has commissioned subject of commercial arrangements and which will Mr Justice Fogarty, an acknowledged expert in the be of long-term benefit to the people of Victoria. area of child protection and a judge of the Family Court, to review and report on methods, goals and It is astounding that the party that initiated steps guidelines to enable the implementation of the best towards the introduction of a casino in this State, possible child protection system in Australia. The albeit with the support of the then opposition, is government is totally committed to protecting and is now doing a backflip and seeking to raise concern on record as saying it will protect the system from about the establishment of a casino. Indeed, it is Budget savings in the future. We are determined to implicit in the statements of the honourable member get it right. for Coburg that the opposition is distancing itself from the very act of establishing a casino. It again Recently amendments were made to the Children shows that the Labor Party was not only unfit for and Young Persons Act relating to representation of government but is also unfit for opposition. the department before the Children's Court. There had been some legal doubt as to whether TEACHING OF INDONESIAN departmental officers could represent the LANGUAGE department. The government has again acted decisively in favour of children to ensure that child Mrs McGILL (Oakleigh) - Will the Minister for protection officers designated by the secretary to the Education inform the House of the initiatives the department, Dr Paterson, are given right of government has taken in implementing the teaching representation in the Children's Court in of the Indonesian language? uncontested matters. That will ensure speedier hearings and greater cost effectiveness and will be a Mr HAYW ARD (Minister for Education) - I better means of utilising additional funds to protect thank the honourable member for her question and children. interest in the teaching of foreign languages. I know she has a genuine interest in that area. Recently I Some difficult, indeed controversial, decisions have signed a memorandum of cooperation with been made, but they have been the right decisions representatives of the government of Indonesia that and the government has been well supported by the will result in greatly increased mutual assistance community in those decisions. I have undertaken a between Indonesia and Australia in a range of PERSONAL EXPLANATION

1786 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 May 1993 educational areas, particularly in the teaching of houses contain asbestos cement sheeting as their English in Indonesia and the teaching of Indonesian primary building source. A clear distinction can be in Victoria. made between asbestos in that form, which is painted and - according to the best scientific The government places a high priority on the advice - is safe and the friable material that is teaching of foreign languages because it will result found in some other places, which is deemed to be in improved opportunities for students engaged in unsafe. that learning and because it is important for improving the international competitiveness of The regulations introduced by the former Australia. Asian languages, of course, are of special government prOVided that anyone working on the importance and no-one could dispute that the Bellarine Peninsula, for example, on houses learning of Indonesian is of particular importance, constructed of asbestos cement sheeting should have because Indonesia is our nearest neighbour. a special licence. Many people have been working with that product for years; they have not suffered The memorandum of cooperation covers exchange from cancer nor have they been put at risk of programs between teachers in both countries, contracting cancer as a result of that work. The student exchange programs and increased government is examining the issue to determine the development in curriculums for both countries. The licensing requirements for working with asbestos. I net result will be an improvement in opportunities give a categOrical assurance to the House that the for students to learn Indonesian in Australia and government has no intention of lowering the English in Indonesia and an upgrading of the standards relating to the risks associated with professional skills of teachers of those subjects in asbestos. both countries. PERSONAL EXPLANATION ASBESTOS SAFETY REGULATIONS Mr GUDE (Minister for Industry and Mr MICALLEF (Springvale) - Given the Employment) - On Friday, 7 May, in response to an comments of the Minister for Health about the issue raised during the debate on the motion for the increase in cancer deaths, will the Minister for adjournment of the sitting by the honourable Industry Services inform the House whether any member for Preston on the coalition's small business changes will be made to the asbestos safety policy prior to the Sta te election, I said in part: regulations? If so, can he assure the House that the current standards of asbestos safety will not be at that time I was the shadow Minister. reduced? Clearly my response could be misunderstood. I Mr PESCOTT (Minister for Industry Services)­ intended to convey to the House that the policy to I was expecting to be asked the second question which the honourable member referred had been from the 7.30 Report! Since this is another formulated by me when I held that shadow media-driven question, I am prepared to answer it. portfolio. Clearly the honourable member for A few months prior to the State election the former Ivanhoe, now the Minister for Small Business, was Labor government pushed through some the shadow Minister during the election campaign. I regulations designed to ensure that a proper hope tha t will clarify the ma tter. assessment is made of buildings containing asbestos so that if there were a high risk to the community PETITION the asbestos would be removed. Dimboola-Melboume rail service In addition to that requirement under the regulations, it was also required that all asbestos be To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the removed by licensed contractors. The government is Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: considering amending the regulations, which will not affect the issue of the safety of asbestos in The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the buildings. The issue of who should be licensed to do State of Victoria showeth that we do not wish any the work is being examined. The regulations reduction in our present rail services on the introduced by the former government were an Dimboola-Melboume rail corridor. overkill in that respect. In Victoria, especially in areas like the Bellarine Peninsula, thousands of And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND REGULATIONS COMMITTEE

Tuesday. 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1787

By Mr J. F. McGrath (1091 signatures> Baimsdale (City) Planning Scheme - No. 1.32 Part 1 Laid on table. Frankston Planning Scheme - No. L46 SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND Huntly Planning Scheme - No. L28 REGULATIONS COMMITTEE Malvern Planning Scheme - No. LIS Alert Digest, No. 7 Metropolitan Region Planning Scheme - No. R117 Moorabbin Planning Scheme - No. L23 Mr PERTON (Doncaster) presented Alert Digest, No. 7 of 1993 together with an appendix. Myrtleford Planning Scheme - No. L27 Rodney Planning Scheme - No. L50 Laid on table. Sale Planning Scheme - No. LI7 Ordered to be printed. Sunshine Planning Scheme - No. 1.55 Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984 FORESTS (S.E.A.S. SAPFOR LTD Mr PERTON (Doncaster) presented first report on AGREEMENT) BILL operation of section 32 of Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984, concerning Local Second reading Government (Reporting and Accounting) Regulations 1992 (SR No. 27611992), together with Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of appendices. Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural Resources). Laid on table. Ms MARPLE (Altona) - The opposition does not oppose this Bill, which is virtually a contract in Ordered to be printed. nature and is similar to those agreed to and enshrined in legislation during the 1980s, OMBUDSMAN particularly the Bowater-Scott agreement in 1986, Investigation of complaint of unjust the Dunstans agreement in 1987 and the Victree dismissal Forests agreement in 1989. I shall detail the opposition's support for the Bill and explain how some aspects of it need to be addressed by the Clerk presented report of Ombudsman on government. investigation of complaint of unjust dismissal because of allegations made by facilitated As the Minister's second-reading speech states, the communication, together with addendum dated 10 legislation amounts to a commercial agreement May 1993. between the Treasurer, the Minister for Natural Resources, the Secretary to the Department of Laid on table. Conservation and Natural Resources, and SEAS Sapfor Ltd for the supply and processing of Ordered to be printed. softwood saw logs from the State's pinewood PAPERS plantations. I am pleased that such a contract is . enshrined in legislation, because the government IS thereby giving a long-term commitment to those Laid on table by Clerk: wishing to process aIUluallog intakes of 100 000 cubic metres. City of Melbourne Superannuation Fund Trustees - Report for the year 1991-92 together with an The Bill allows Victorians to know about the terms explanation for the delay in tabling the report and conditions of the contract, which is only right and proper, as the State owns the plantations. The Planning and Environment Act 1987 - Notices of introduction of legislation which contains that type approval of amendments to the following Planning of contract is the best way to allow Victorians to Schemes: read the fine print; the terms of contract caIUlot be ignored by any party. FORESTS (S.E.A.S. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

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The new industry which will result from the technology has been detrimental to the forests. We enactment of the Bill will offer employment and have worked hard to ensure that our codes of growth for Victoria. The opposition believes the practice enable us to work towards making our government should stimulate employment and forests sustainable. growth in Victoria; although many in the commwlity believe that should be left to the private Despite what the Minister may say or what the sector, the opposition believes the government must industry would like us to believe, many coupes in show the way. our native forests are not regenerating to the extent many would like. This applies particularly in the The former government had been working towards high country where the coupes of mixed species are the implementation of this contract for some time. not regenerating. Some estimate that the rate of regeneration is as low as 21 per cent. I am sure the Mr Col em an - Four years. timber industry would like a better regeneration rate for the coupes. Ms MARPLE - Of course you were able to pick it up, because the work had already be done! On behalf of all Victorians, the government must decide whether it is to continue subsidising the The schedule at page 3 of the Bill details the agreed timber industry or whether it is to develop more procedures and conditions leading to the signing of plantations. the agreement. The schedule states: Softwoods from the new plantations can be used in Ill. On the basis of invited Expression of Interest many instances instead of hard woods, for example, submitted to the Secretary, 28 March 1988 and in the construction of houses we have all seen a subsequent entering into of a Memorandum of great move to softwoods. Victoria should recognise Understanding on 3 May 1990 which includes refers to the foreSight of previous generations who planted the Expression of Interest and the Preliminary Design softwood plantations. Many honourable members and Financial Statement a significant quantity of will remember the first clearances of softwood softwood saw log is to be made available to plantations and, no doubt, hope everyone has learnt 30 June 2030. a lesson since those days.

The legislation will benefit Victoria. I notice the The contract that is enshrined in the Bill will ensure honourable member for Portland is interested in the that new plantations are developed. The opposition Bill; Portland can look forward to the commissioning is pleased that the Bill outlines a government by 31 July 1994 of a new sawmill with et capacity to commitment to increased planting and productivity, process 180000 cubic metres of sawlogs yearly­ which is possible due to improved techniques that that means we will never hear the end of that have been developed over many years. development from the honourable member for Portland! The government must continue its commitment to research so that not only genetically improved stock Mr Coleman interjected. can be developed but also methods to reduce the impact of fertilisers used in the plantations on the Ms MARPLE - Of course I would let the House surrounding land and waterways in the area can be know of any new industry in Altona. I look forward developed. Much more is known about the effect of to his continuing contribution. fertilisers than in previous years. The best land use practices must be put in place; farmers and foresters Many individuals and groups in the community cannot continue to use fertilisers as they have in the continually express concern about our native forests. past. They cannot continue the practice of putting on Many believe that similar legislation should be as much fertiliser as the land can take and a bit more introduced to protect our rainforests, as is becoming for luck, which has resulted in the pollution of rivers a worldwide trend. I am pleased the government and various waterways. Too much fertiliser results has seen fit to introduce this Bill as it leads the way in increased nutrients in the water, which can cause for a plantation-led timber industry. algal blooms.

The technology for the harvesting of our native The Bill will help to improve the productivity of forests has been improved, but we have been unable plantations - which is wanted in all industries - to make it sustainable. Some believe the new but it must not be to the detriment of any other FORESTS (S.E.A.s. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1789 industry. It is worth mentioning the concern of Ms MARPLE - I mentioned that because it was many people about the overzealous use of and important and because you did not want me to reliance on herbicides and insecticides. The mention the East Gippsland forests. government must also review that practice. Herbicides and insecticides are usually distributed The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! It is not that I by aerial spraying of plantations and can affect the do not want the honourable member to mention people who live close to the plantations. Studies them, they are not part of the Bill. have been done on the impact of those chemicals on the surrounding countryside and the people who Ms MARPLE - It is always important that any live nearby. If some people think the fears are industry reaches a balance. The balance this Bill groundless, they should remember that when achieves will ensure that Victoria has a viable timber plantations are replanted chemicals are used to get industry. It is important that Victoria use its timber rid of the woody weeds - commonly known as resources rather than importing them so that wattle. The problems of the use of herbicides and Australia's balance of payments is not affected. We insecticides must be tackled. must ensure, therefore, that there is at least enough timber in Victoria for the needs of Victorians. Studies should also be done on ways of increasing productivity without a reliance on chemicals. I hope The Bill will help the industry move forward. The the government continues its commitment to agreement guarantees the supply of softwood research to increase productivity while not putting sawlog for another 40 years. A plan of utilisation extra stress on local populations or the land. The will be drawn up each year detailing specifically government is not facing the changes needed to where the logs will be taken from in the State protect native forests, especially in the East plantations in the Heywood, Rennick and Casterton Gippsland area. forest districts.

Mr COLEMAN (Minister for Natural The Bill also sets out the minimum annual Resources) -On a point of order, Mr Acting requirement of 90 per cent of royalties for those Speaker, the honourable member for Altona was sawlogs during the life of the agreement, although treated leniently in a previous debate on a similar the credit arrangement for the timber in a certain matter, but this Bill is specifically about ratifying a year does not have to be taken up until the next year. softwood agreement. Although the argument for It also provides tha t the licence fee is based on a plantations replacing hardwood production is specified rate per cubic metre and is indexed legitimate, a foray into the forests of East Gippsland annually. The total revenue from licence fees and is well outside the ambit of this legislation. royalties is expected to increase from $2.1 million in 1994 to around $6.5 million at the turn of the century. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr E. R. Smith) - Order! The honourable member for Altona should I dare to say not only do I hope that the State will be restrict her comments to the terms of the Bill. $6 million richer but also that we will be active members of the Australian republic by then. Ms MARPLE (Altona) - The Bill addresses the direction the timber industry will take in the future. The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I remind the It also confirms the hopes of people after the signing honourable member that debate is on the Bill. by the Premier of the national forest policy that the government will protect Victoria's ageing forests, Ms MARPLE - I thought I would try -- many of which are located in the East Gippsland area. The timber industry needs impetus so that it The ACTING SPEAKER -Order! We are not can provide employment and so that Victoria does here to try to do anything except speak on the Bill. not continue to be reliant on East Gippsland forests. That was the direction in which I was moving with Ms MARPLE - Well, it is nice to know we will my comments. be a republic and that we will own these things at the same time. The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member will address the Chair and will The ACfING SPEAKER - Order! The keep her comments within the bounds of this very honourable member for Altona will speak on the Bill narrow Bill. or I will not hear her. FORESTS (S.E.A.S. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

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Ms MARPLE - I am chastened. I also note that have made to conclude this matter and to bring the the Victorian community will be pleased that the Bill Bill before the House. provides for the department to be released from its obligations in the event of a major disaster such as a Mr Hamilton - And the previous government fire. We know that Victoria can swing into action for doing the spadework. quickly when dealing with a fire - and fires are prevalent in Victoria. If at all possible, logs must be Dr NAPTHINE - The honourable member for removed as quickly as possible and placed in water Altona also mentioned the spadework done by the storage for future use. The Bill also contains previous government. I should also like to refer to provisions which allow the company to be released the contribution made by the previous government from all of its obligations in the event of because it is not a happy one. In February and overpowering circumstances. That seems fair to all March 1988 the original expressions of interest were concerned. called for. That was before I was elected to Parliament but I know it was an issue at the time. In I note that the last schedule in the Bill relates to the March 1988 the initial announcement was made that code of practice. That sets out basically the different SEAS Sapfor Ltd would be allocated that resource types of logs that will be used, the lengths and after expressions of interest were called for. It took trimmings that will be allowed and the possible the previous government more than two years to get problems that may arise. I hope the code of practice that expression of interest into a memorandum of about how logs are to be taken out will also be understanding and the Labor government was adhered to so that the least disturbance is caused to thrown out of office before a contractual agreement the area and rejuvenation with healthy trees will was made. The previous government had five years occur as quickly as possible. Having lived in an area to deliver to this company and failed to do so, as it close to a plantation I know that the taking out of failed to deliver similar agreements for other timber causes problems with the roads, dust and so companies throughout Victoria. on. The timber industry is well practised in this area and I am sure the work will be done as well as The opposition is in no position to claim credit for possible. I am also sure the government will be able the spadework. Indeed its track record is a sorry to overcome any problems that arise in the industry one. It highlights why we should congratulate the from time to time. Minister for Natural Resources who in seven months has taken this situation from one that was badly The opposition does not oppose the Bill for two handled in the past to a successful conclusion, as reasons. Firstly, the previous Labor government evidenced by the Bill before the House. This saga worked on a similar agreement. Even though I know has now been brought to an end by a Minister who it will cause some comments from the other side, I understands softwood resource management, point out that the previous government did the understands the private sector and knows how to spadework for this Bill. Secondly, this is one of the provide these long-tenn agreements. best ways Parliament can give leadership to the direction in which this State and the timber industry The Bill provides for a long-term agreement between must move. I wish the Bill well. SEAS Sapfor Ltd and the Victorian government to make use of the excellent softwood plantations in Dr NAPTHINE (Portland) - This is an south-west Victoria, which have been planted over important Bill for the whole of Victoria, especially many years; indeed planting is still continuing. The the people of south-west Victoria. The lead speaker agreement refers specifically to sawlogs. A number for the opposition, the honourable member for of management practices used in softwood Altona, clearly said a number of times that the plantations give different products starting with the opposition would not oppose the Bill. I am surprised thinnings that become posts to the ultimate product, that it took that stance racher than saying it would which is sawlogs. The Bill provides for a 4O-year fully support the Bill, because clearly this Bill agreement to take sawlogs from the softwood deserves the support of both sides of the House plantations in the sandy soil area of Rennick on the rather than the comment that the opposition would South Australian border, south to Portland and not oppose it. It is a forward-looking Bill and the north as far as Casterton and the Glenelg shire. whole House should congratulate the government, especially the Minister for Natural Resources, his The pine forests are extensive covering some department and SEAS Sapfor Ltd on the efforts they 20 000 hectares. Many pines are mature now and many have only recently been planted. The FORESTS (S.E.A.s. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 May 1993 ASSEMBLY 1791 agreement runs for 40 years and will make use of the locate the sawmill in or around Portland. That is not pines as they come on stream. a decision that the government or I as the local member should make or seek to influence. It is a The agreement provides for 60 000 cubic metres of company decision which must be based on the sawlog to be taken in the 1994-95 financial year. long-term viability of the plant. Production will be the same from 1995 to 2000 when the annual recovery will be 142 000 cubic metres. There are indirect as well as direct employment From 2000 to 2030, the final 30 years of the benefits from the Bill: people will be employed to agreement, production will reach 180 000 cubic construct and operate the mill, to harvest timber and metres a year. That is a substantial amount of subsequently to replant the forest. There will be sawlogs, and it will provide SEAS Sapfor Ltd with auxiliary employment in trucking the logs, Significant opportunities to market timber in supplying fuel for the sawmilling and harvesting Australia and perhaps overseas. operations and supplying, for example, tyres for trucks. There is a spin-off benefit for the Portland The honourable member for Altona rightly region through such an enterprise operating in highlighted that Australia is an importer of timber south-west Victoria - it is a great move for the area. products, which surprises many people. My understanding is that about $2.5 billion worth of The government should be congratulated on timber products is imported every year. That is a bringing this plan to fruition. I understand from national disgrace in a country like Australia. discussions with people who are involved that some Australia should be able to manage its land of the logs may be processed to meet specific export resources and forests so that it is not an importer of requirements. Again, that will be of enormous forestry products but an exporter. It is incumbent on benefit to the people of Australia and particularly Victorians to work towards that goal. This sort of the people of Portland, which is the obvious export agreement provides the timber industry with port. leadership that can be built on to further develop the timber industry in Victoria. The legislation provides for the efficient use of a major softwood resource in south-west Victoria. The benefits of the legislation, particularly for the Local people who have been involved in the Portland area, are Significant. I direct to the attention planting and management of the pines will look of the House clause (1)(a) of the First Schedule to the forward to seeing them used to improve the lives of agreement, which provides that the agreement is all Victorians. As the honourable member for Altona conditional upon the establishment, completion and said, Victorians will benefit directly through licence commissioning of a sawmilling complex within the fees, royalties and road and production charges, Portland softwood management area by 31 July which are covered by the legislation. The 1994. The new softwood sawmilling complex will be honourable member for Altona said that they would capable of processing a minimum of 180 000 cubic amount initially to about $2.5 million, build up to metres of softwood sawlog a year. Estimates more than $6 million by 2000 and increase thereafter. provided to me suggest that an investment of about $50 million to $53 million will be required, which is The legislation is extremely important for a Significant amount. The sawmilling complex could south-west Victoria. It is a tribute to the excellent provide 250 jobs in the construction phase and 80 to work of departmental officers, led very capably by 85 jobs on an annual running basis. It will be a very the Minister for Natural Resources. After four years important industry for the area. of indecision, within seven months of the coalition winning government a legislative agreement has There has been some speculation in south-west been brought before the House. The Minister and his Victoria about exactly where the sawmill will be department deserve our congratulations, and the Bill located. That is clearly a decision for the company. deserves speedy passage through the House. The agreement clearly says that the sawmilling complex must be located in the Portland softwood Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - I support the Bill. management area, but it does not stipulate where The opposition sees value in it and joins with the the mill should be located. It is clear that SEAS honourable member for Portland in congratulating Sapfor Ltd should choose an appropriate location, the government on putting this important one that is the most economically viable for the agreement in place. Some points should be made on company. It is my understanding that the company the agreement between the Victorian company, has considered a number of options and is likely to FORESTS (S.E.A.s. SAPFOR L TD AGREEMENT) BILL

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SEAS Sapfor Ltd, and the Department of I commend the government on the presentation of Conservation Natural Resources. the Forests (S.E.A.S. Sapfor Ltd Agreement) Bill. Most of the problems experienced formerly in the Softwood industries are very common in my part of timber industry have been addressed. The problems the world. Most of our pines are grown for the created by the additional tensions that existed manufacture of paper pulp. Amcor Ltd, or APM as it between the government and members of the forests is commonly known, is a major company in the industry - certainly between the conservation Latrobe Valley. What is not so well known is that a groups and members of the forests industry - have softwood mill in the Latrobe Valley run by a been considered seriously by members of the forests subsidiary of Amcor, Brown and Dureau, is one of industry and certainly by the large forest users. The the most modem and automated factories it has leadership given by the Victorian Association of been my privilege to visit. Forest Industries has gone a long way to reducing the tension and, more importantly, has helped to Despite the claims by the honourable member for educate members of the public about the fact that Portland that jobs will be created from the time of members of the forests industry have cleaned up ground preparation through to planting and their act and are responsible users of forest harvesting, the softwood industry is one of the most plantations in particular and of timber resources in automated in the world. The machinery used to general. harvest pines and softwood is absolutely magnificent. It is a one-person operation. The The schedule provides, at page 4 of the Bill: machine snips the tree off at the butt, automatically V. The development of the saw milling complex is to takes the foliage from the tree, slices the tree into proceed only on the basis that it is viable and accurate lengths and puts them into a pile ready to sustainable in its own right without the need for be loaded onto a truck. With the advent of B-double recourse to any form of government financial trucks to transport softwood logs in my part of the assistance subsidies or concessions. world - I suspect that B-doubles will be introduced on the appropriate roads with the appropriate I commend the government on having entered into a agreement of local councils to service pine forests in proper business arrangement to ensure that the the Portland area - greater efficiencies are achieved. company will be viable and will be able to exist in its own right. SEAS Sapfor Ltd will establish a new mill in the Portland softwood management area, and I suspect I gather that most of the products from the proposed it will be even more automated than the Brown and complex will be used in the building industry. In Dureau mill. It is absolutely amazing to see pine logs recent years one of the major changes in the building coming into the saw area of the mill. A computer industry has been the increased use of pine as an automatically selects what size timber will produce important construction material, in particular, in the least waste when cutting the logs. The logs then houses. With the advent of lamination and other pass through the saw and the timber is new processes that have been achieved through automatically graded. If there are weaknesses in the engineering, a wide span of ma terials has been timber it is sliced, knots are taken out and it is introduced into the building industry. automatically joined. The end product is designed, achieved and supported through the use of The government will have to address an amazing computers. aspect of what has happened in the building industry. It seems ludicrous that Victoria has been In addition, the factory is almost self-contained, importing pine building materials from South because the scantlings, the waste product of the Australia while at the same time major mills in sawlogs, are used in the kiln drying of the pine Victoria have shipped their products to South timber before it is stored in stacks ready for Australia. The result is that transport costs, transportation. Down our way, a large market has including fuel and road costs associated with been established for pine bark taken from the logs. It shifting the materials, have to be paid. Some is important garden mulching material and has been opportunity must exist to address the matter, used in many gardens in the newer suburbs of because to most people it seems to be only Melbourne. The industry is developing mainly with commonsense that consideration should be given to the use of overseas technology from Norway and the way the industry manages itself. I suppose if we Canada and will be an important industry in the are dealing with free market forces it might be future. FORESTS (S.E.A.s. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

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inevitable that such an arrangement might result, year of operation 60 000 cubic metres of softwood but, as I said, it seems ridiculous. sawlog will be supplied, and that will increase to 180 000 cubic metres by 2000-01 and following years. Consideration must be given to the wonderful I commend the government on the provision. It will possibility of exporting materials. If one considers allow the company to become established and will the amount of softwood material imported into ensure that it is viable. Any company in an industry Australia, one realises we have a fair way to go in with a long lead time to production must be given developing our forests industries. The Bill sets in the greatest help possible in order that it can become place some opportunity for developing the softwood viable and establish itself. industry and, more importantly, making sensible use of our timber resources. The Bill provides that if the company is unable for any reason to take the supply of sawlogs at a Division C of the schedule lists softwood saw log particular time the Secretary to the Department of rights. It refers to the agreement drawn up for the Conservation and Natural Resources will act on supply, delivery and utilisation of the product. behalf of the government to ensure that such an Clause 9(1) of the division provides that the occurrence does not interfere with the overall Secretary to the Department of Conservation and operations of the management of the establishment. Natural Resources must: I noted with some interest the list of the disasters draw up and deliver to the Company a plan of that can occur from time to time. When I lived utilisation for the supply of softwood sawlog for the among pine plantations we used to plant trees by following year and a provisional plan for supply of hand. We would walk along with a spade, dig a hole softwood sawlog for the further two following years. and put a tree in it. Over the years the method of planting has certainly changed. We actually cut trees Members of the forests industry realise that they down with an axe and made pine cases for fruit. have a long-term planning responsibility, and all Now the cases are made of cardboard, about which I honourable members must bear that in mind. Down am pleased - it keeps the APM factory in business our way, one must plan at least 30 years ahead; with and that is an important employer in my part of the softwoods one can probably start harvesting after world. A possibility exists that softwoods may be some 20 years. damaged through fire or disease. The new generations of pine are more disease-resistant, so it The schedule also sets out the locations from which is hoped that will not happen. softwood saw log may be obtained. Until recently that work was undertaken by the former State The Bill contains a clause that takes account of the Forests Commission, which has now been subsumed fact that a sawmill may be viable. Thankfully, some into the Department of Conservation and Natural forest industry practices that used to be common are Resources. Officers of the former commission had less common these days, and because those issues responsibility for assisting companies in particular have been addressed the Bill has a certain degree of and the management of the State's forests generally realism. so that the location of the logging operations was clearly identified both as to selection and how it Clause 25 of Division 0 of the schedule refers to would take place. Now the Code of Forest Practices, war, riot, and civil commotion. I was bemused to see passed by Parliament with bipartisan support, must the words "strike lockout" included, because the be taken into account. The code is important in activities of war and riot do not sit well with labour improving the forests industry generally and in and industrial relations. particular how the products are managed, harvested and delivered to factories. In the Latrobe Valley APM Forests Pty Ltd seems to have managed industrial relations very well by The schedule also provides for a phased-in increase working through industrial relations issues with its in the supply of sawlogs, and I commend the work force so that the union, which was well government on the provision. Clearly, in the early represented by its leadership, was able to sit down establishment phases some problems will be with the company and over a lengthy period come encountered at the mill. Honourable members will to a set of agreements enabling that operation to deal be familiar with the fact that any process based on with its industry restructure without industrial computerisation and automation experiences turmoil. teething problems. The Bill provides that in the first FORESTS (S.E.A.s. SAPFOR LTD AGREEMENT) BILL

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I hope, SEAS Sapor Ltd will proceed in the same schedule of the Bill will be strictly enforced. When I way so that that model may be used rather than the visited Tasmania, which is very much a timber State, model in Bumie, Tasmania, where APPM decided it I heard undertones suggesting that the company had was going to crash or crash through, and eventually difficulties with royalties and in dealing with the it crashed. I hope the new company can come up government in connection with mill land and the with a decent set of industrial relations agreements, development at Scottsdale. People were under threat as has been proved possible in a number of sectors and the company decided that the government in the industry. A great maturity has been shown in should get it out of the difficulties. the forest industry over the last couple of years, and I have been pleased to see that. Sapfor has mills at Kalangadoo and Tarpeena in South Australia, and I was surprised that the There are opportunities for termination of or document provides for a 180 000 cubic metre dispensing with the agreement on reasonable softwood sawlog plant in Victoria when those mills grounds, which is fair enough. To its credit the have unused capacity. It is my understanding that government seems to have covered most avenues people in South Australia have lost their concerning the development of the industry over a employment because of the recession and the period of time. I commend the government for the downturn in the industry. practice of working in conjunction with the code of forest practices, which sets out how Victoria should The honourable member for Morwell said that manage its forests and harvest and transport forest clause 13(4) of the main schedule is a let-out products. provision, and I direct the clause to the Minister's attention. It states: I support the Bill and wish it a speedy passage. I (4) The softwood saw log made available to the wish the company and the Department of Company by this Agreement shall be processed at Conservation and Natural Resources well with the the sawmilling complex referred to in the First program in the future, and I hope it will be Schedule except that with the prior consent of the successful during its four-year life. Secretary and such consent not to be unreasonably withheld the Company may process up to 20 per Mr WEIDEMAN (Franks ton) - I am something cent of the minimum annual supply in anyone of a layman on the issue of the SEAS Sapfor Ltd year at a sawmilling complex other than that agreement. Over recent years one or two of my described in the First Schedule ... constituents have raised issues about the company with me, and I want to raise some of those issues in I want the Minister to reply to the statement in the the House today. First Schedule that: (1) The Company undertakes covenants and agrees to: My understanding is that Sapfor Ltd had a company called Timber Sales distributing its wood and timber (a) establish complete and commission by 31 July products. A year or so ago it was brought to my 1994 within the Portland Softwood attention that in Dandenong the company was Management area, State of Victoria a new treating pine sawlogs with arsenic and creosote. My softwood sawmilling complex capable of understanding is that that property was sold. Local processing a minimum of 180,000 cubic metre residents and the Environment Protection AuthOrity of softwood sawlog per annum; and ... were concerned that the property was contaminated. I want the Minister to assure the House that that The property was sold as being chemical-free, which provision will be set in concrete. It is a key provision caused concern to one or two of my constituents in the agreement. The requirements on the company who are worried about conservation issues. have been set out, but I would like the assurance spelt out clearly before the Bill is passed. I went to the trouble of obtaining the annual report of the company. I noticed certain comments, which I The honourable member for Portland said the mill checked with a friend in the industry whom I will will cost between $50 million and $53 million and not name. I discovered that those claims in the employ 70-odd people, with another 70 people being annual report were not true. Sapfor Ltd has some required to keep the complex going. I am surprised black marks against its name. because I understand the company has a mill in South Australia that is unused. I am afraid that the I would like the Minister at the table to give a clear company will try to use the agreement or its undertaking that the First Schedule of the main