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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, 16th July 1997 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: ( I) to apply surplus receipts totalling £2,666 of the The (the Hon Sir Charles expenses of the legislature in payment of excess Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: the expenditure; and Attorney-General (Mr J M Kerruish Q C), Mr B Barton, Hon C M Christian, Messrs D F K Delaney and E G Lowey, (2) to apply from general avenue the sum of £23,343 His Honour A C Luft CBE, Hon E J Mann, Messrs in payment of excess expenditure by the expenses J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, of the legislature. Clerk of the Council. There were really four main factors which contributed In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon N Q Cringle) to the excess expenditure; salaries were one, and they were (); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); over budget as a result of the general 3 per cent increase in Hon R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); August 1996, and also because all members of Tynwald Hon H Hannan (Peel); Mr W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); now have departmental responsibilities and are therefore Mr S C Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); qualifying for the additional remuneration; and in library Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkill and Mr J R Kniveton publications there was a substantial increase in the (Onchan); Messrs J R Houghton and E A Crowe (Douglas requirement for the library to purchase publications for North); Hon D C Cretney and Mr A C Duggan (Douglas other departments of government; and as 1996 was an South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas election year, the number of committees and the level of East); Messrs J P Shimmin and A F Downie (Douglas activity was greatly increased to enable them to report to West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling Tynwald before the dissolution of the House; and also, as (Malew and Santon); and Sir CBE LLD (hc), in an election year that meant that there was an additional (Rushen) with Prof T StJ N Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. pressure on Hansard to make sure that everything was up to date at the time. Those were the four main headings why we overspent on the budget and I beg to move.

The Chaplain of the took the prayers. Mr Gelling: I beg to second, Mr President.

APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution set out at item 13 on the order paper. Those in favour please The President: Hon. members, this morning we have say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. apologies for absence from the Lord Bishop and the hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, who is attending the Court of Salford University. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE MANAGEMENT ACT 1986 (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 1997 — APPROVED LEGISLATURE - EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROVED The President: Item 14, the Minister for the Treasury.

The President: Now, before turning to the business on Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: the order paper I should like to thank the hon. Mr Speaker and the hon. member for Michael, the Acting Speaker, for That the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 deputising in my absence yesterday. (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1997 be approved. I understand we are now at item 13 on the order paper and I call upon the hon. Mr Speaker to move. The purpose of this order is to amend sections 62 and 184 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986, The Speaker: Mr President, I beg to move: which introduced changes that bring the treatment of deficiencies found in aircraft and ship stores for excise That Tynwald authorises the Treasury in respect of the duty into line with the treatment of other shortages and year ended 31st March 1997 - discrepancies.

Apologies for Absence Legislature — Excess Expenditure Approved Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1997 — Approved T602 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997

Section 62 of the Act is concerned with the provision Mr Singer: I beg your pardon. of duty-free stores to ships and aircraft leaving the Island and United Kingdom for a foreign destination. If such a Mr Corkill: Therefore I beg to move. journey is aborted and the aircraft or ship returns to the Island and a deficiency in the stores is found over and above The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, what could have been legitimately consumed, the master set out at item 15 on the order paper. Will those in favour or commander may be liable to a fine on summary please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes conviction. Furthermore the amount of revenue involved in the deficiency may be called for from him. I beg to move have it. the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No.2) Order 1997. MEMBERS OF STATUTORY BOARDS (ANNUAL Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. SUMS) (NO. 2) ORDER 1997 — APPROVED Hon. members, I will put the resolution The President: The President: Item 16, the Minister for the Treasury. set out at item 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Members of Statutory• Boards (Annual Sums) (No. 2) Order 1997 be approved. MEMBERS OF STATUTORY BOARDS (ANNUAL SUMS) ORDER 1997 — APPROVED The Members of Statutory Boards (Annual Sums) (No. The President: Item 15, the Minister for the Treasury. 2) Order 1997 prescribes the amount of annual sums payable to non-Tynwald members of the statutory boards, Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: but excluding the Financial Supervision Commission and the Insurance and Pensions Authority, with effect from 21st That the Members of Statutory Boards (Annual January 1997. This was the date members were appointed Sums) Order 1997 be approved. or reappointed to the statutory boards after the general election. The Members of Statutory Boards (Annual Sums) Order The increases in remuneration are as follows: members 1997 provides for an increase in remuneration to £8,500 of the Post Office Authority, the Water Authority and the per annum with effect from 21st January 1997 to non- Manx Electricity Authority, £1,600 per annum; members Tynwald members of the Financial Supervision of the Board of Consumer Affairs and the Communications Commission and the Insurance and Pensions Authority. Commission, £2,800 per annum. In percentage terms the The 21st January 1997 was the date members were increase is approximately 12 per cent, being broadly in appointed or reappointed to the statutory boards after the general election. In percentage terms the increase is line with Civil Service pay rises since the last review in approximately 12 per cent, being broadly in line with Civil 1991-92. The sums are paid under the Payment of Service pay rises since the last review in 1991-92. As the Members' Expenses Act and the recipients are therefore sums are paid under the Payment of Members' Expenses not liable to pay income tax. The rates of increase were Act the recipients are not liable to pay income tax on these determined in consultation with the statutory boards and amounts. The rate of the increase was determined in the Joint Committee on the Emoluments of Certain Public consultation with the Financial Supervision Commission, Servants. And in answering the hon. member for Ramsey, Insurance and Pensions Authority and the Joint Committee Mr Singer's point, consultation is done with the statutory on the Emoluments of Certain Public Servants. I beg to boards and agreement is reached in terms of the workload move, Mr President. and also with regard to the professional qualifications in certain areas. That is why there is a range of amounts and Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. that they are not all the same. It is a fact that these amounts have come about over a period of time with consultation Mr Singer: Mr President, could I just ask the hon. at the appropriate time. I beg to move, Mr President. minister for information? Why is there such a difference in the annual sums payable, for example, between a Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. member of the Board of Consumer Affairs and the Isle of Man Post Office? Is this the amount of work that they actually have to undertake? Mr Singer: I would just like to thank the hon. minister for his reply. The President: Reply, sir? The President: Hon. members, I put the resolution Mr Corkill: Mr President, with reference to item 15, standing at item 16 on the order paper. Will those in favour this relates purely to the Financial Supervision please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Commission - have it.

Members of Statutory Boards (Annual Sums) Order 1997 — Approved Members of Statutory Boards (Annual Sums) (No. 2) Order 1997 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T603

MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY (ANNUAL MERCHANT SHIPPING (RELEVANT SUM) ORDER 1997 — APPROVED COUNTRIES) (HONG KONG) REGULATIONS 1997 — APPROVED The President: Item 17, the Minister for the Treasury to move. The President: Item 19 will not be moved as it has been placed on the supplementary order paper. Item 20, Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: the Minister for Transport.

That the Manx Electricity Authority (Annual Sum) Mr North: Mr President, I beg to move: Order 1997 be approved. That the Merchant Shipping (Relevant Countries) The Manx Electricity Authority (Annual Sum) Order (Hong Kong) Regulations 1997 be approved. 1997 provides for the annual remuneration paid to the non- Tynwald Chairman of the MEA to be increased by Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. approximately 22 per cent from 12,141 to 15,000, this being broadly in line with the Civil Service pay rates since Mr Gilbey: Mr President, Hong Kong is a country with the last review in 1990. The chairman of the authority was appointed on 21st January by Tynwald and the order will with we have had a lot of financial and other relations and take effect from that date. The payment is made under the are trying to build them up. Therefore I was very sorry to Payment of Members' Expenses Act and, as previous read that although ships already on the register could orders, is not subject to income tax. The rate of increase remain there if they were in Hong Kong ownership, we was determined in consultation with the MEA and the Joint would not be taking ships from Hong Kong onto the register Committee on the Emoluments of Certain Public Servants, in future, and this is despite the fact that, in one of the as were the others, and so I beg to move this order, Mr excellent briefing notes I received on this, it was made President. quite clear that under our Shipping Acts we could take the ships from any country we so decided. I understand that Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. we are not going to take Hong Kong ships in the future because of the attitude of the UK Government, who did The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution not want us to for some reason, and this seems to me a standing at item 17 on the order paper. Will those in favour great pity, particularly as Hong Kong has become a special please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes administrative region of the People's Republic of China. have it. But, to let people in Hong Kong preserve their way of life and ensure the territory's prosperity and stability after the change of sovereignty, the People's Republic of China COMPANIES OVERSEAS BRANCH REGISTER conceived the innovative idea of one country, two systems, (PRESCRIBED COUNTRIES) REGULATIONS to administer the special administrative region and in view 1997 — APPROVED of this, and the fact that it is intended that Hong Kong can continue to have its own legislature, its own laws, a The President: Item 18, the Minister for the Treasury. common legal system with independent judiciary, including that of financial adjudication, it seems to me very strange Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: that the UK Government should not agree to us still registering ships that are in the ownership of Hong Kong- That the Companies Overseas Branch Register resident individuals and companies. I would hope that the (Prescribed Countries) Regulations 1997 be approved. hon. minister would agree that pressure should be put on the UK Government to have this changed so that we can These regulations will permit Manx registered register more ships on our register if they are in the companies to maintain their register of members in certain ownership of individuals or businesses in the special countries and territories other than the Isle of Man. To be administrative region of Hong Kong. able to take advantage of the regulations the company must transact business there. The company will be required to The President: Reply, minister. give notice to the Chief Registrar on the prescribed form, stating where the branch register will be kept. There are Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, that is a very certain conditions with which the company must comply valid point made by the hon. member for Glenfaba. This if it wishes to maintain an overseas branch register, and is an extremely complex issue, and certainly some of the these are prescribed in the Companies Acts. I beg to move, United Kingdom authorities do have different ideas to the Mr President. Isle of Man marine administration and my department now on the way that some of these things should be progressed, Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. and I shall be having discussions at a political level, certainly within the next few months, on this matter. I think The President: Hon. members, I put the resolution set at this time it would be not a good move and I fully out at item 18 on the order paper. Those in favour please understand the points made by the hon. member for say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Glenfaba but we have to be very aware of the world

Manx Electricity Authority (Annual Sum) Order 1997 — Approved Companies Overseas Branch Register (Prescribed Countries) Regulations 1997 — Approved Merchant Shipping (Relevant Countries) (Hong Kong) Regulations 1997 — Approved T604 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 political situation and the status of the Isle of Man flag, heavy lorries will have little effect on revenue in proportion which is not a flag of convenience, and we need to protect to the total amount of vehicle duties received from lorries. that reputation at this stage. I beg to move, Mr President. However, it will bring the vehicle duties on these lorries closer to their haulage capacities and reflect more closely The President: Hon. members, I put the resolution set their wear and tear on the roads. out at item 20 on the order paper. Will those in favour There have been suggestions that vehicle duty should please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes be charged as a supplementary tax on road fuel have it. consumption. There are arguments for and against this idea. Many people feel it would be a fairer system, particularly for owners of vehicles that are kept off the road for lengthy periods in any month or year. Others will say that a tax per VEHICLE DUTY ORDER 1997 — APPROVED litre of fuel would increase the fuel costs of many motorists and organisations to an unacceptable level and would The President: Item 21, the Minister for Transport. discourage visitors to the Isle of Man who would wish either to bring their cars with them or who would wish to Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: hire a car on the Island. The department does intend to look at this question to see whether in fact it is feasible, That the Vehicle Duty Order 1997 be approved. and I, as member with the delegated responsibility in the department, shall be considering this matter when we have The Vehicle Duty Order 1997 is intended to increase vehicle duty by approximately 10 per cent, with effect carried out the necessary research and consultations. generally from 1st September 1997. This effective date is Naturally I hope that hon. members will take the time to forward their views and those of their constituents to me. intended to allow the Treasury licensing office time to implement the new rates if this hon. Court approves them Mr President, I beg to second. here today. In the case of heavy goods vehicles - and that is large commercial goods vehicles exceeding 12,000 Mr Delaney: Mr President, I am not going to oppose kilograms maximum laden weight - the new rates will come at all but I would take the opportunity to ask the minister, into operation from October 1997. This is intended to allow would he look closely at the relationship between the the commercial companies sufficient time to amend their amount of JCBs, heavy track vehicles that are using the tariffs, if necessary. roads, and the actual licence duty imposed, because it is Rates were last increased by the Vehicle Duty Order obvious to the casual observer that the damage that is done 1994, which came into operation on 1st July 1994. The to the surface of the roads is not by the ordinary Vehicle Duty (Amendment) Order 1996 introduced various householder or the heavier vehicle. If you look at what is exemptions from duty for smaller classes of vehicle which happening, particularly around the Douglas area, every are unlikely to use roads very much. It also introduced the time a JCB removes demolition work - and they can see it half-rate duty on farmers' goods vehicles, as they would on the promenade - or a track vehicle, it tears the top of have been confined to road use in connection with the the surface of the road and the back lanes that they are agricultural business of the farm. All these exemptions or using to get access to properties are virtually a matter concession rates remain in place and are not affected by straightaway for the department to come back to and the new order. resurface after they have finished their work. I would ask The vehicle duty is estimated to yield £3.17 million per the minister to look at that so that it is actually the user annum, so in a full year the increase arising from the and the heavy vehicles that pay for the road surfacing rather proposed order is estimated to produce £317,000. The than the light vehicle which is the everyday householders' proposed vehicle duty rates increased by 10 per cent have vehicle. been rounded so that all rates are expressed in whole pounds. Certain adjustments to duties for large commercial The Speaker: Mr President, could I ask the minister vehicles are made from 1st October 1997 introducing a that, whilst looking at the licensing generally of vehicles, graduated rate for articulated lorries and adjusting the and the exemptions for veteran vehicles, which is perfectly differential of duties as between the heaviest rigid tippers acceptable as far as I am concerned, he also look at the position whereby an individual who owns, shall we say, a and the heaviest articulated lorries. The latter will pay the veteran motorcycle or motorcar and wishes to put back to higher duty from October 1998. Mr President. I beg to that vehicle the original licence plates when that vehicle move the motion standing in my name. was registered on the Island - in fact, those people are considered as trying to put the proof of that vehicle back Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to second the motion together so that they have a provenance of that vehicle in and, while it is not the pleasantest of tasks to support an its antiquity - would not therefore be charged the additional increase in tax, it is my opinion that this increase is justified sum which is charged for the normal cherished number so that the value of revenue available for repairing the roads plates. For example, where a person such as myself wished is maintained. In the Isle of Man, of course, all the tax to keep my own number plate I think it is perfectly collected on road vehicles does go to the Department of reasonable and responsible that you should pay if you wish Transport rather than in the UK where it goes into Treasury to maintain your own number plate, but if you are putting funds. The restructuring of vehicle duties for articulated back to its original form a veteran motorcycle, it seems to

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me that if that number plate is still available and not in the revenue from the costs, I would hope that what we use, well then, I fail to see why there should be an additional would see is getting back to building the roads up for charge at that time. modern vehicle transport on our roads and not say, 'Oh, well, it is the JCBs' faults,' or whatever, because there are Mr Downie: Mr President, I would just like to support many roads with culverts in and we do not even know the notion that has been put forward by Mr Speaker. What where they are. I would also just say that when we are does happen from time to time is that you do come across spending this money I think we need to make sure we spend an old vehicle, say an old motorcycle, you have the log it on the basics of repairing the roads, instead of on fancy book for it but, because it has not been taxed for two or chicanes and other things that are not needed on our roads three years, it automatically goes off the computer. Now, and I think there is often too much of not spending the when a person spends a considerable amount of time and money in the right way. money and restores that vehicle it would be nice if they Could I just also say, when they talk about getting this could come into the Treasury with the original log book money in for the department, that they will spend some of and say, 'There is that bike, it was built in 1923, registered that money on providing car parking for heavy vehicles. then, its number was MN 41', for argument's sake, and if There is a need for this and it needs to be a priority. There it is still on the computer that number should be offered to are far too many heavy vehicles being pushed around, the person who still has the bike and still has the log book driving local residents insane; there is money there at no charge instead of having to pay an additional £50. It available, I would hope that if we cannot spend it on the is part of the history of that vehicle and, when you see basics of just repairing the roads then let us get it spent on what happens in the UK, that is a system that is in common a heavy vehicle park, because I think that is something use over there and it does help to substantiate the that needs to be done. importance of that vehicle and its historic records. On another note, I would like to support what the hon. Mr Waft: Mr President, I just hope that the minister member for Council, Mr Delaney, was saying. Digging will note that when the department does call for an increase machines at the moment - and I take it these include in the length of lorries, because of the problem with the DROTTs, JCBs and other items of plant, I would like the cost of foodstuffs and the large vehicles that are needed to department to look at this. I think it is ridiculous that they distribute throughout the Island, to keep the cost down he are only being taxed at the rate of £ 19. Now, I accept that does take into consideration where the member has stated when they are used for agricultural purposes and they are that the wear and tear of the vehicles are a consequence of used on a farm, no problem with that at all, but when they the increase in Vehicle Duty Order, but when the increase are used by a construction company and they are running is in lengths and weights of the vehicles the actual axle all round the Isle of Man to different sites - and I know on weight is suddenly distributed and it does not have the occasions they are charged out at something like £250 a wear and tear on the road, so you cannot have it both ways day - there is justification in trying to get a little bit more in one or in other ways in another, so just bear that in mind money back into the coffers, and £19 a year would seem a for the future. Thank you, Mr President. very little amount. On the same subject, mobile cranes, there has been a The President: Reply, minister? mobile crane parked on the highway in Douglas now for about 4'/2 months, and I note with some interest that the Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I thank the licence duty for a mobile crane is only £19 a year - a similar members for their interest in this one. I would just say that situation: I feel that the system is being abused and yet the as far as the JCBs are concerned and the matter of damage ordinary motorist has been asked to pay somewhere that they do, and I presume that is actually when they are between £60 and £80 a year for an average car where, in actually operating on the roads using the points - fairness, the people who are doing the damage and who are getting away with it, really, are paying quite a meagre Mr Delaney: Between sites. amount when you look at all the fees across the board. So I would ask the minister if he can address those two Mr Brown: Well, going between sites a JCB, as I particular issues. understand it - virtually the tyres are like a tractor, so whether the hon. member is relating to one with - Mr Duggan: Mr President, could I ask the minister, could he indicate to the Court, of all the duties collected, Mr Delaney: Track vehicles. what percentage is actually spent on road repairs? If he does not know the answer now, could he let us know at a Mr Brown: - the tractor type, then that is fine and we later date, sir? can certainly have a look at that and see what the situation is regarding that, and I thank the member for bringing it to Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just think that trying our attention. to say the state of our roads is because of JCBs running all As far as the point about the mobile cranes which was around the roads is simply wrong. The fact is that many of raised by Mr Downie, the member for West Douglas, and our roads were built for horses and carts and we have not the JCBs and also the licence plates for vintage vehicles, done the improvements that need to be done to the roads which was also raised by Mr Speaker, I am certainly content and if we were talking about the state of the roads from for the department to look into those issues and whether

Vehicle Duty Order 1997 — Approved T606 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 or not there is a need to introduce, with regard to the licence hopefully the enforcers of the law will endeavour to deal plates which are held for different reasons than what some with that at a reasonable time and a reasonable rate. Mr people would do where they just let it lapse, then it may President, I thank members for their support and move the very well be that we could look to see whether or not we motion in my name. are in a position to introduce a separate category for that which recognises the basis of the vintage vehicle, or classic The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution vehicle, and the number wanting to be retained with it albeit set out at item 21 on the order paper. Will those in favour the vehicle is not on the road very often, or is not relicensed, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes but I am not sure of the intricacies of that but certainly have it. quite happy to look at that issue and see if the department can come up with a way of meeting what I think and I accept is a special need, especially if you have a number, CEREALS INTERVENTION AND AREA maybe on a vintage bike, which might be MN 20 and then PAYMENTS SCHEME 1997 —APPROVED you have got to let the plate go or keep relicensing it. So I am certainly happy for us to look at that; again they are The President: Item 22 has been dealt with, we move small but important issues. on to item 23 and I call upon the Minister for Agriculture, Mr Duggan asked about the duty collected and the Fisheries and Forestry to move. amount of money spent on the roads. The duty collected, as I mentioned in my brief, is £3.1 million or thereabouts, Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg to move: subject to how many vehicles are licensed, and we expended on our highways for 1996-97 £9.1 million, so I That the Cereals Intervention and Area Payments think you can see that the overall operation of the highway Scheme 1997 be approved. and traffic on that side exceeds the amount of income that comes in. If the figures are much different than that, then I This item deals with the Cereals Intervention and Area will ensure somebody contacts Mr Duggan with the Payments Scheme 1997 and updates and consolidates the information, but if they are within that area, which I am existing scheme approved by this Court in 1993. I have sure they are, because that is from the Pink Book, I am circulated a document to members describing the position sure that that is quite clear. of the cereals scheme and the pulses scheme which will be As far as the provision of heavy vehicle parks, I did revoked by item 24 should item 23 be approved. respond to a question recently on this and in fact made it The administration of the intervention arrangements for quite clear that I did not see it as a job for government to barley, feed wheat and milling wheat are more clearly provide heavy vehicle parks for the Isle of Man's defined in relation to the role of intervention agents and commercial enterprise, and if we were going to do that it stores. There is a requirement to update the minimum would certainly be at a very commercial rate, and I am moisture content level for intervention cereals and a sure that if government decide to do it at a very commercial change, therefore, to the level of calculated deductions from rate we would not have many vehicles on those sites and moist grain to account for weight loss. The area payments we would then have to have the knock-on effect of section of the scheme seeks to increase the level of payment implementing legislation which was more onerous, maybe, from the current 88 per cent of the equivalent English rate on the owners than it is now. Certainly my view is to to 93 per cent. This is consequent upon a reduction in encourage people to provide it and to provide off-street required set-aside in England from 10 to 5 per cent, parking, and I know from the point of view of the Minister providing opportunity for English growers therefore to for Local Government and the Environment, who of course receive a higher return from his land. We have not applied is responsible for off-street parking, it is a matter that set-aside and consequently the Manx payment rate was certainly in local plans is identified and it is a problem. I originally set at a lower level than in England. To maintain think the problem is, of course, originally that we have not similar support, however, it is deemed necessary to increase had a system like the UK where it has been a requirement the percentage relationship. to have an operator's licence and therefore as part of that My department is also seeking to introduce a higher requirement to have a site to park your vehicles off the highway at night, and I think we are all aware of the rate of area payment for pulses - that is, peas and beans - background to that. than that provided for other eligible crops. This is to reflect As far as size of vehicles and the wear and tear is the proposed revocation of the Pulse Scheme 1993 which concerned, I know certainly personally I have a concern is before the Court today and which provided support by about the size of some of the vehicles on the Isle of Man. way of a tonnage payment at £40 per ton for pulses used I think they are rather large for our Island (Several for seed or incorporated into animal feeding stuffs. Members: Hear, hear.) and I am concerned that the Financial support would then be through one scheme and implications of that are that we are ever increasingly remove any possible difficulties over verifying and widening our roads to cope with these large wagons. And inspecting tonnages held in producers' own storage another concern I have is that I am concerned that some of facilities. these larger vehicles are going at speeds that I find In moving this motion I would explain that this is not a unacceptable on our Island roads, and I do know that it is usual government scheme. It is an area where my something that the department is concerned about and department deals with the intervention cereal store and sells

Cereals Intervention and Area Payments Scheme 1997 -- Approved TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T607 on the marketplace for whatever price the department can a tonnage payment of £40 an acre. In the subsequent motion get on that marketplace and, as I circulated to members, it is proposed that that payment should be struck out and we usually sell our surplus grain - that is, grain surplus to the hon. minister is suggesting that that has been home requirements - to Northern Ireland. I can also confirm compensated for within the increased acreage payment in that the cost of cereal intervention in 1995 was £11.40 to the motion now before us. So it is now proposed to the department. That was due to a higher proportion of incorporate the tonnage payment into the cereal acreage local sales. However, 1994, the cost to the department - payment, but the problem with that is of course that that this is per ton - was £24.25, and the year before that it was exacerbates the unfairness of the arbitrary scheme which £22.75 per ton. I beg to move item 23 stand for approval, was put in place in 1993. Eaghtyrane. The problems are particularly felt by tenant farmers. Tenant farmers, of course, may have land on a year-to- Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve year basis, they may change that land on a year-to-year my remarks. basis, so they can have land attracting a cereal acreage of x. If they have to give that land up or take on other land the Mr Quine: Mr President, I have made known to the following year it could be x- for the following year. Now, Chief Minister and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries until now although that has not been welcomed, the farmers and Forestry that I have got serious reservations concerning have lived with that because there has been this pulses this motion and the following motion, which of course are tonnage payment which has been attracted to the total connected, and I think it is not surprising, perhaps, that I pulses product and therefore they had been able to even should be making representations in this matter as the area this out. As a consequence of a change in land they may I represent is possibly the largest cereal growing area on have received less on the acreage payments because of the the Island, the northern plain. So, as I said, sir, I think loss of the acreage allocation, but the tonnage payment these two motions are connected and I ask hon. members not related to allocation has been able to even that out for to bear that in mind. Again, I appreciate that for persons them. Now, of course that will no longer be possible under that are not connected with farming some of this may be a the changes that are proposed here today. The receipts will little bit difficult to understand, but basically, if I could relate entirely to the acreage payment. just remind hon. members, in the context of these two Now, those are, you might say, some of the problems orders cereals includes pulses, and by pulses of course we with the fundamentals that are involved and these have are referring to peas and beans - peas and beans grown been identified. Over a period of the last two years there mainly on the Island for animal feed. And that, as I say, has been attempt by the Manx National Farmers' Union to makes that connection between these two orders. bring these into discussion. Unfortunately - and hon. Now, not all land on the Island - I am very much aware members have a letter from the Manx National Farmers' that you would take on board - is suitable for cereals, and Union before them here - you will see that they have not some land is more suitable than other for cereal growing, been very successful in getting a meaningful dialogue with and for that reason the flexibility that you have in terms of the department. We have evidence here before us that it the alternative cropping of land can be a serious restriction. was in February or March this year when a serious proposal Certainly you cannot switch crops overnight. Very much to change was mooted to the Manx Farmers' Union, but it like a large ship at sea, it takes time to change course. was only six days ago, six days before this Tynwald, that There is a significant lead time in changing course and they in effect received these orders. There was no draft of diverting land to another use, assuming the land is suitable the schemes put to them for consideration at all and, as I for use. say, when you are talking of going to alternative crops, Now, the existing situation regarding this scheme: it when you are talking of changing the cultivation pattern, was brought in in 1993. At that time each holding was really that is to ignore the practicalities of farming which allocated a cereals acreage and that allocation was based quite clearly should be taken into consideration. on the previous three years' cultivation. So they took that If there were overwhelming reasons for this change as a starting point, they looked back three years, as I perhaps we would say, 'Right, well, we must take that on understand it, and they said, 'Right, over the three years board, we must live with that.' Indeed the farmers would you had 10 acres for one year, you had 15 acres for another say, 'We must live with that', but that does not appear to year and you had 12 acres, therefore your average is 12.25 be the case here. The case here for making these changes for that holding'. And that percentage of course varies in seems to stand on a suggestion from the department that relation to the total holding, so your acreage holding as a in some way they have not been able to properly administer percentage will vary from one holding to another this tonnage payment. Again the MNFU have suggested depending upon that arbitrary setting which took place in to them alternative ways to strengthen the administration 1993. If part of the holding is sold or leased, then the cereals of the tonnage payment, but they have not been prepared allocation, in whole or part, moves. So if you have 130 to discuss that with them. acres, 20 acres is sold or leased, taking the cereals acreage So rather than address the unfairness of this system, of 12.25 acres was the example I gave you, then two acres what we have before us today is a new scheme brought in would go along with that 20 acres, so it moves, it is flexible, - or schemes, if you have regard to the following motion - to that extent. which have been brought in without full and proper Now, as regards the pulses side of it which is, as I say, a consultation with the farming community and which seem cereal by definition, the present position is that that attracts to be founded on the administrative advantages for the

Cereals Intervention and Area Payments Scheme 1997 — Approved T608 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 department as opposed to the practical and economic needs The President: The minister to reply. of the farming community. Again, hon. members will see from the letter that is before them that the farming Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I thank my community, wildly and strongly opposed to these changes member of the department for his comments in support of and feeling seriously aggrieved by the manner in which this. Could I say that since I have been in the department I they have been brought about, have said that given their have met the Manx National Farmers' Union and other cash flow situation they feel that they will have to live areas of the industry on a fairly regular basis. Issues have with these changes on the basis that they would seek to been discussed both at meetings in the department and pursue subsequently changes to these orders. Manx National Farmers' branch meetings in the north when I respect the farming community's assessment of that the eastern and the western branch come together and in situation. Cash flow is a very serious problem for the the southern branch as well. So we meet on a fairly regular farming community at this time. Consequently it is not basis to discuss all manner of issues. There are many issues my intention to vote against this order or the subsequent which I think are accepted from time to time by the farmers' order, but I do hope that I have spelt out the shortfalls in union because it is seen as being the best overall for farming respect of these changes and I do hope that I have given in general. notice that these matters will have to be pursued following This actual scheme relates to a smaller number of the recess. Thank you, sir. producers, but at each branch meeting members have been quite vociferous in their comments with regard to an Mr Luft: Mr President, the hon. member for Ayre has extension of the cereals scheme. There is an allocation but made a point that there has been no proper consultation. it has only grown to about 9,000 acres. There are 1,000 In fact, the MNFU have put their views on this in February acres which are not grown each year but they are allocated last at least and more recently than that, and they made it to farmers and the cereal committee of the Manx National quite clear what their views were. The fact that the Farmers' Union do request on a regular basis that this department were not able to agree to those, of course, is a acreage is allocated to new entrants and existing producers. different matter. It may well be true that they have only So that is one of the difficulties that we have. We entered had notice of this six days ago, which is unfortunate, but into this scheme in 1993. It was a scheme; it was set out at this matter had to be dealt with at this Court because for that time. What we are looking for at the moment is a the very reason they put: they would have been deprived change in the scheme which has been suggested and we of the payment if it had been delayed to October. Now, the would have to go along with that. It is due to financial minister will give details of the matters which were regulations; it is due to internal audit not being happy with discussed and why, for very good administration reasons, the way that the pulses scheme was being administered. the pulse scheme has been altered so that it can now be We had to look at changing that scheme so that we did administered without the fear . . . I do not say there has comply with financial regulations and this new scheme been abuse, but there was a great possibility of abuse under does comply with those financial regulations. As I said in the old scheme and that had to be dealt with. As you will my opening remarks, this would be through one scheme notice from the letter put before hon. members from the and remove any possible difficulties over verifying and Manx National Farmers' Union they do get a better sum inspecting tonnages held in producers' own storage per acre than is payable in England. facilities. We pay on the acre and this is the change in this Now, the hon. member has made a point of one difficulty scheme, but in actual fact we pay £6 more than the UK. So which I do not understand at all: he says that they may when we are looking for equivalent support in actual fact have land from year to year on which they grow crops. our support is greater than England pays. Now, that is a contradiction of the Agricultural Holdings I think it is safe to say that the Manx National Farmers' Act. Land can only be held free of the right to almost Union are not happy for the very reason that the member perpetuity of tenure if it is grown for year to year. It must for Council mentioned, that we discussed these issues and, be less than a year, the period of letting, and it must only because we do not do exactly what the committee requests be used for grazing. So how can they be unprotected and of us, there is dissatisfaction. But we entered into this liable to lose that land the next year? If it is on a year-to- scheme, into the cereal acreage payments scheme and also year basis used for cropping, then it must be protected under the pulses scheme and the acreage is quite right, what the member for Ayre said, that it is traditional growing rights. the Agricultural Holdings Act and they would not have We looked at it in 1993, the previous years growing. So it this difficulty. I agree entirely with what the hon. member was done in retrospect. Some farmers do feel, because of has said. You cannot change your crops from year to year, their growing pattern over that year, that they should have it does take time, of course, and I do feel that that point had greater allocation, but it is the way that the European will no doubt be taken up by the hon. minister in due course. Union scheme is worked out and we work it out in the There was a case for making these changes and that same way as England does. case is sufficient in my view to justify the present orders. I present this scheme to the Court. I think it covers the The union are very vociferous and very clear in putting concerns expressed. When it comes to financial regulations their case and they have put it quite clearly to the even my department has to recognise those restrictions that department and they have had knowledge of what was are placed upon us but I would emphasise that comments intended. They may not have had the draft scheme but have been made with regard to the operation of the they have known what the provisions were going to be. intervention scheme. It is a different scheme and it is putting

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the scheme as it works at the moment into black and white. minister has made rather arbitrary decisions on both these Now, the union have said that they only got a copy of it. I items which will go a long way to reducing or destroying could say that we had discussions on the change of the the profitability of smaller farm businesses on the Island. scheme but it was a scheme that was based on the original I was quite surprised that, a MHK for a town, I was actually scheme. What is being introduced here is an increase in approached for support by the farmers, and if the farmers price to take account of the devaluation of the Ecu and are approaching the MHK for a town they must feel that also to take into account the change in the area payment. the outlook is pretty black. So we have not sat back and said we are not going to make I think everyone in this Court should be looking to boost the changes that have been made in England, taking account our local industries, particularly the traditional industries, of the set-aside which, as I said before, we did not introduce but I believe that the timing of this action and its heavy- here when they introduced it in England, but what we did handedness is hanging the farmers out to dry, and I should do is make an allowance for that in the rate that we paid think that the minister should be able to see that there is no the farmers on their area payments. business sense in what is being put forward in supporting I would hope that members will approve this, and could the actual fanners. What bothers me is that the minister I say that in my last meeting with the Manx National lost the confidence of this Court in her actions on the Farmers' Union cereals committee I did say at that time forestry proposals at Ballaskella, the minister does not have that I would be reviewing the scheme for the 1999 harvest. the confidence of the fishermen, and now I think the hon. I felt that to review the scheme in any greater detail than minister may totally lose the confidence of the agricultural we are actually changing at the moment and to take account community as she pushes ahead with these proposals. So of the internal audit, the change in the set-aside and the there is not much left in the ministry that will receive change in the value of the green pound was at this stage support. Therefore I am going to vote against this as a something that we should not enter into but, because we protest. I know it will probably be lost but I really feel that are reviewing all our schemes in the department, it is we have to make a stand against some of the actions that something that I said that the department would do for the have been taken by this particular department over the last 1999 year harvest and it is something I intend to stand by. nine months. I feel it is a good scheme and it certainly does support agriculture and I know many other farmers would like to Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I am happy to actually be involved in this scheme because it is the only area where concur with the views submitted to hon. members by my intervention actually works in Mann. So I would hope that colleague for Ramsey and, looking at the letter that was members will support this and also the next item on the submitted to us by the Manx National Farmers' Union and agenda. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move. taking on board the comments by a member of the Legislative Council on the previous item where he spoke The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution about dialogue and the fact that there has been dialogue set out at item 23 on the order paper. Will those in favour between the farmers' union and the department, of course please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes what he failed to say at that particular time was that the have it. letter states that there had been no constructive dialogue with the department and the farmers' union and that constructive dialogue had not been taking place for PULSE SCHEME 1993 (REVOCATION) SCHEME something like two years. It had been non-existent for in 1997 — APPROVED excess of two years and I find that deplorable. Like my hon. colleague for Ramsey I believe that farming is an The President: Item 24, the Minister for Agriculture, essential, traditional industry which we must and should Fisheries and Forestry. be supporting and that we should not be so high-handed as the minister has seen fit in dealing with the problems that Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg to move: have come forward. Further, I think it is deplorable that there has been no time allowed for comment or explanation That the Pulse Scheme 1993 (Revocation) Scheme prior to members being asked to approve or otherwise these 1997 be approved. motions that are before us. As someone who supports freedom of access to information, open government and I beg to move the revocation of the pulse scheme due to good government I find this situation quite intolerable. the fact that the Cereals Intervention and Area Payments I too will be voting against as a form of protest because Scheme has just been approved. I beg to move. I think it would be most unfortunate if this particular item, as did the previous one, goes through unanimously, I think Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve putting a marker down for the hon. minister, for the next my remarks. term, which starts in October, to clearly demonstrate to her that we are not happy, the farmers are not happy and Mr Singer: Mr President, I have listened to what the that there will be further moves to try and satisfy this very member for Ayre has said, I have listed to what the minister unsatisfactory situation here today. Thank you. said and the last item, I have also read the letter that has been sent round from the Manx National Farmers' Union Mr Luft: Mr President, the hon. member for Ramsey, and, having considered all the points, I believe that the Mr Singer, I do not think has very much knowledge of

Pulse Scheme 1993 (Revocation) Scheme 1997 — Approved T610 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 agricultural industry. The fact of the matter is, they put their I was hanging the farmers out to dry. I would refute that case fully. I was present at these meetings of the department absolutely. Whenever I meet with my fellow colleagues I and to say there has been no constructive dialogue is a put forward agriculture, fisheries and forestry, and I would nonsense. They put their case not only at the meetings but, like to ask him where I have lost confidence within this as the minister has said, at the branch meetings we attend hon. Court or anywhere with regard to forestry or fishermen late at night in the various districts. The fact that the ministry or indeed agriculture, where last year I was able to secure, did not agree with the points they were putting is not to say because of the BSE crisis and because of the support of there was not constructive dialogue. You see, the cereal this hon. Court, £2.25 million to deal with that particular scheme in effect had to be altered to comply with financial crisis and this year £1.5 million. If the member is so regulations. The internal audit had required it. Are we to sit confident that I have lost confidence, why has he not moved back and ignore what is our bounden duty to obey these a notice of lack of confidence in me and the operation of financial regulations? The schemes have to be so made that my department? (Mrs Cannell interjecting) Well, yes. Well, the abuse cannot creep in. Now, it may be that the national bring it then! farmers' union do often put forward their schemes because The member for Douglas East suggested that she was the poor farmers never have enough money, of course, and involved in constructive dialogue and she found that my one sympathises with their position. attitude and the attitude of the department was deplorable. I can honestly say that I have long and, I would hope, Mr Delaney: They all become lawyers! (Laughter) constructive dialogue with the industry, not just with the agricultural industry but also with the fishermen. I consider Mr Luft: Well, they may not find that so profitable! that I have a good relationship with them. If they tell me differently, then it is up to them to tell me differently and I Members: Oh! (Laughter) am sure they will, because we meet on many occasions. We have extremely good dialogue and discussion and it is Mr Luft: I do wish to refute this 'no constructive certainly not them sitting there saying nothing to me or dialogue.' They have occupied some hours with the me sitting there saying nothing to them. We have extremely department in putting forward their points, and the fact good dialogue. We understand our positions and I certainly that they do not agree with this is one point, but their main understand their industry and their difficulties. concern, I think, was that there were 10,000 acres and 1,000 If I was to change the scheme it would impinge on other had not been allocated, and they were very anxious that people's freedoms to operate under this scheme. I have to this 1,000 should be allocated to some of their growers, I be fair not only to the people that are making the think. That was not thought appropriate and the ministry representations but also everyone else who maybe has have decided not to do that, but the scheme itself is for the made a decision to grow a varying acreage each year, and benefit of the producers, and I do trust that this hon. Court therefore there is this actual spare acreage of 1,000 acres will vote in favour of this motion. where someone will grow 30 acres one year for area cereal payment, that is their choice, but because they have got The President: The minister to reply. that acreage maybe they will grow their full amount, which is 50 or whatever, the year after because it fits in with their Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. This is not, as agricultural management of their land. I think it is all very the member for Ramsey suggested. an arbitrary decision; well for people to say that we do not have a constructive it is a decision that came about because of the financial dialogue and deplore the position that my department finds regulations accepted by this hon. Court. discussed at great itself in with regard to financial regulations and also length yesterday. and if members are suggesting that my internal audit. department should overlook financial regulations in the The member for East Douglas says it is essential that implementation of schemes, then I am not prepared to. traditional industries are supported, and I would say to you and to this hon. Court that this government supports (Messrs Cretney and Gilbey: Hear. hear.) agriculture, it supports fisheries and it also supports forestry. It supports many areas - well, the majority of the Mrs Hannan: I believe we all should apply financial Isle of Man - with many schemes; this is only one of the regulations. We might not like them and it does make it schemes. I too believe in open government, freedom of very difficult and it will probably make it even more information and I think fellow ministers and members of difficult for us in the future to operate. but if we are told, if this Court also agree with that. we are looking after public funds. the taxpayers' money, The discussions were quite clear when we discussed then I believe it is beholden upon us to apply the financial with the farmers' union the changes that were necessary. restraints that we have agreed to in this hon. Court. Not The only change that I believe that the farmers are not only that, but internal audit have said they were not happy happy with is the change in the pulses scheme because it with this particular scheme as it operated, and therefore it changes the payment, but if we are looking at the Tynwald was necessary for us to change that. resolution of 1979, when it said that farmers should receive The member for Ramsey suggested that he was a town similar support to their counterparts in the UK, then I would member and he had been approached - probably a slur on say we are complying with that; we are paying £6 an acre myself. because I am also a town member making decisions more. We could have gone more than that, but I accepted about the countryside, because he went on to suggest that the average tonnage grown per acre, and I think it is that

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area where the industry has mainly its problem with the the Crimes (Sentencing) Act 1997 shall extend to the Isle department. Also the allocation of this extra thousand acres, of Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and but I would say to members that if we are going to allocate modifications. that we would have to take it away from someone else to allocate it. I have requested farmers, if they are not growing Schedule 1 to the Crimes (Sentencing) Act of 1997 to the thousand acres and they are not growing that acreage includes new provisions for the transfer of prisoners from and they would like to pass it back to the department for one jurisdiction to another within the United Kingdom and the department to reallocate, we would do that. The farmers islands. These new provisions replace provisions in the have not done that, they have not been willing to do that UK Criminal Justice Act of 1961 which have applied to and therefore, if I was going to change the scheme willy- the Isle of Man since 1977. nilly, it would mean that somebody who has planned their The previous law was difficult to operate in certain farming practice over a number of years, different acreages, respects and was of doubtful effect in relation to prisoners would have acreages taken away from them to put into released on licence, especially where a prisoner breached this pot for a then share-out. the terms of his or her licence. The new provisions will I would hope that members will support this proposal. replace the existing scheme of permanent and temporary As I have said, it is really constraints because of acceptance transfers with a new scheme whereby a prisoner may be of financial regulations and internal audit concerns. I beg transferred either conditionally, in which case he or she to move, Eaghtyrane. will remain subject to the rules of the sending jurisdiction as regards release, supervision, reach and recall to prison, The President: Hon. members, I will now put the or unconditionally, in which case he or she will become resolution set out at item 24 on the order paper. Will those subject to the rules of the receiving jurisdiction. in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The new provisions will also address the different sentencing procedures and practices in certain jurisdictions, A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: which will become more marked following the changes in England and Wales, which are included in the Act. In In the Keys - general, the consent of a prisoner to a transfer is required and there is an exemption for transfers from the Islands to For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir the UK where overcrowding or other constraints might Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, make a transfer necessary. Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs The provisions in addition include new powers to Bell, Karran, Corkin, Kniveton, Gelling and the transfer remand prisoners from one jurisdiction to another, Speaker - 20 which cannot be done at present and which may be required for security, medical or other reasons. Against: Mrs Cannell and Mr Singer - 2 In the normal course of events it might be expected that to effect these transfers Parliament would legislate for the The Speaker: Mr President. the motion carries in the UK while Tynwald would make reciprocal provisions for House with 20 votes being cast for, sir, and 2 against. the Isle of Man. However, the Council of Ministers has been advised and has accepted that a number of legal In the Council- difficulties would follow if the UK legislation did not include provisions for its extension to the Island. Therefore For.• Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft. Dr Mann, Messrs the Council of Ministers exceptionally agreed to the Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 8 inclusion of a permissive extension clause. The extension, however, will be subject to the date of a prisoner's release Against: None not being affected by a transfer and any transfer to or from the Island requiring the consent of the department of Home The President: In the Council. hon. members, 8 votes Affairs. have been cast in favour of the resolution. no votes against. Mr President, I beg to move the item standing at number I declare the resolution carried. 25 on our agenda paper today. Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

CRIMES (SENTENCING) ACT 1997 (OF Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I do not necessarily object PARLIAMENT) — EXTENSION TO THE to the proposal that the hon. Chief Minister has put forward, ISLE OF MAN — APPROVED but this is quite an important matter referring both to law and order, which I think many of us believe is one of the The President: Item 25, the Chief Minister. most important matters facing us at the present time, and also it does have constitutional overtones in that we are Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: allowing the UK to legislate to cover us in this matter. Therefore I am disappointed that there was no briefing That Her Majesty be requested to direct by Order document, as far as I can trace, sent to any hon. member. I in Council that the provisions contained in schedule 1 to have asked the hon. Clerk if he got one and he said he had

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not; I have asked two other members and they said they modifications, until such time as domestic primary had not. I certainly cannot trace one. If I am wrong I legislation can be enacted. apologise, but also I checked with the Chief Minister's Office and was virtually told nothing was being sent and The Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act that the Chief Minister would explain it, and I do feel this prohibits unlicensed mining in the United Kingdom's is unfortunate regarding an important matter, particularly territorial waters in compliance with the terms of the United when we have briefing notes sent round for virtually every Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. This Act other item on the agenda, and though I do not obviously contains a permissive extent clause which enables its blame the hon. Chief Minister for this, I do hope in future provisions to be extended to include the Isle of Man. he will ensure that briefing notes are sent out regarding The has requested that the items in his name. United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea be extended to include Manx territorial waters, and it is The President: Reply, sir? therefore necessary to prohibit unlicensed deep sea mining in Manx waters in order to comply. Ultimately domestic Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, first of all may I legislation will be enacted to take such effect as to honour apologise for that, because in actual fact it was brought to the Island's commitments and prohibit unlicensed deep sea my notice by the learned Clerk, which I thought was mining. However, on the advice of the Department of extremely helpful, that the Transfer of Prisoners (Isle of Transport and Her Majesty's Attorney-General's Chambers Man) Order 1997 in fact does not alter Manx law, and I it would be appropriate if for the present time the United got clarification of this particular point because the question Kingdom Act were to be extended to the Isle of Man by I had in my own mind was it had already been applied, but order in council. in fact it had not extended that law to the Isle of Man and Now it is proposed that a request for a separate order in that was the difficulty. But certainly, Mr President, I take council be made in respect of the Isle of Man, so it might on board what the hon. member is saying about a briefing be replaced more easily once domestic legislation is note. It would have been most helpful, because it is an enacted. Her Majesty's Government has been informed of extremely complicated area, but the order is being made the Isle of Man's wish to promote domestic legislation in basically because it is a fact that the 1961 Act would have respect of its territorial waters, but I would ask hon. to remain in being in the UK if we were to continue in the members that in the short term the hon. Court support this situation we are in. Well, we cannot guarantee that that motion today. So, therefore, I beg to move the motion will happen, so therefore this is something that has to be standing in my name at item number 26, Mr President. applied in the Isle of Man, which is what we are doing and that order will not be made until 22nd July, after Tynwald Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. have actually made the decision as to whether they feel it should be extended or otherwise. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am very concerned. Why So in saying and apologising to hon. members for an are we having to do this? This does nothing but undermine explanatory memo not being available I would hope that our position as far as this government is concerned, hon. members would support this particular order today, bringing in orders from a foreign government in the as I have said, really to help the prisoners to serve their adjacent isle, and I would like to know from the Chief sentences in an area nearer to their homes for family Minister, why can't we have this legislation drafted up? connections, and I think that is extremely important, sir. I What is the urgency to extending this order from the United beg to move. Kingdom? It does nothing for the Isle of Man's credibility and, as I said in Question Time yesterday when we were The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution talking about having polite little chats with the Governor set out at item 25 on the order paper. Will those in favour and the Prime Minister of the adjacent isle, he would be please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes far better down getting some drafting done of some have it. legislation on constitutional issues and he would be far better in this case forgetting about this and getting some of our own legislation drafted, because I think it DEEP SEA MINING (TEMPORARY undermines the whole position of the Isle of Man. The PROVISIONS) ACT 1981 (OF PARLIAMENT) Isle of Man has a government, it is not a county of England — EXTENSION TO THE and I want to know from the Chief Minister, what is the ISLE OF MAN — APPROVED urgency of this order going through? Are we in crisis that somebody is going to start mining in our territorial water The President: Item 26, the Chief Minister. at the present time or what? But I feel, unless there are some sort of assurances, we should not support this order, Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: because we should be saying we want this legislation done in the Isle of Man by the Manx parliament that is elected That Her Majesty be requested to direct by Order by the Manx people, not done by a foreign government in Council that the provisions of the Deep Sea Mining that the Manx people have no mandate with, and I think, (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981 shall be extended to the unless the Chief Minister has a legitimate reason, we should Isle of Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and not support this and that will put the pressure on and we

Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981 (of Parliament) — Extension to the Isle of Man — Approved TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T613 will get away from this extending orders from the adjacent The Attorney-General: We are indeed, sir. The isle, because it does nothing for the Isle of Man. situation is, as I was explaining, that sometimes one has to take matters of extension. On this particular item 26, Mr Mr Crowe: Mr President, I would like to comment on President, the Isle of Man has had ratified and extended to both Mr Gilbey's point and Mr Karran's point, and when I it UNCLOS. The situation is that we have requested, was reading this I did not seem to see an urgency in this subject to Tynwald's approval, that an order in council and it does concern me as well that our power as a extending be made. This will enable the Isle of Man to parliament is being eroded if we continue to just adopt comply with its international obligations under UNCLOS. orders from the UK Government. I thought again, like Mr It is envisaged that we will introduce domestic legislation. Karran, what if we did absolutely nothing? There is nobody Once that legislation is introduced, then the order extending out there trying to mine in the sea and if we give an becomes redundant. It is automatically revoked because assurance that we are going to put legislation through, then there is a later Act of this Court, which would then have surely that should satisfy people or the UK Government. effect. The situation is that Manx territorial waters may be Now if we cannot do that, is it possible to put a time limit considered not to be deep sea; however, our ships which on the order, that the order is in place for say a year and fly the flag travel deep sea. It is considered, I understand, then would lapse if we had not taken legislation? But if that deep sea mining will probably not be a commercial we put an order in place, or the UK Government does, viability for some years to come. However, at the moment without a time limit then we seem to be limiting our own we had ratified the UNCLOS to extend to us, the Island flexibility. Thank you. has international obligations and therefore this order in council is sought with the approval of Tynwald to ensure The Speaker: Mr President, I have to say that my that we comply with our conventional obligations and our instinct lines up entirely with the two previous members. international obligations with a view that we will introduce It does seem to me to be a shame that we have reached the domestic legislation timely and that domestic legislation position of asking for an order in council to be extended. I will automatically revoke the order in council extending. am quite certain that we would have no right to put a time There is no need therefore to place a time limit on the limit on it and I think in the third paragraph of the order in council. Thank you, Mr President. explanatory memorandum it refer to the minister, to the Transport Department and then in the final sentence of Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, just a point. I think it that paragraph it refers to 'There may not be time to have wrong to assume that this matter has been lying around our own legislation enacted', and I think it is incumbent since 1980. That is not the case. Certainly in 1980 the upon the Chief Minister to really explain to us what the United Kingdom's ratification of this particular convention timescale is and why we do not have time to do this, when was a live issue, but they then deferred any ratification for this has apparently been in the offing since, if my memory a period, I think, in excess of 10 years for some agreement of the first paragraph serves me right now, 1980. On those they had with the United States of America, and it is only grounds I think, rather like the hon. member for Onchan, I of comparative recent times that they have in fact ratified would much prefer to have our own legislation enacted this convention, and that was the opportunity we took to here on the Island and if in paragraph 3 it simply says extend our territorial waters. So there was some gap `There may not be time', well, I fail to see why we have between 1980 and the early 1990s when it was not possible not got the time and I think we should certainly find it. to pursue these particular issues.

Mr Waft: Could I just ask, Mr President, on paragraph Mr Lowey: Could I say that I rise, really, to say that 4 it states 'It has therefore been recommended by the my only concern is not so much with our territorial waters Department of Transport and her Majesty's Attorney- but the ability of the Isle of Man international shipping General's Chambers.' Perhaps the Attorney might be able register to be used as a back door to circumvent our to elaborate on the situation? Thank you, Mr President. international obligations. That is where the immediate danger is as a temporary measure. But that would only The Attorney-General: Mr President, if I may on a last. if I read the order right, until the day we actually general point on the previous order, which related to the introduce our own legislation. So I think it is incumbent Crimes (Sentencing) Bill, the Channel Islands had the Act upon this Court today to say yes to the order today and then to pursue the parliamentary arm of our government automatically extended to them. The situation is that the to get on the statute our own legislation, and to that degree Isle of Man requested a permissive extension. It gives the I will be lending my support today to the order on the strict Island the ability to transfer prisoners on remand, who are grounds that we do prioritise and get this particular piece high security risk and restricted prisoners. Sometimes when of, what we would normally call, inoffensive non-urgent one is dealing inter-jurisdictionally, between ourselves and legislation in our eyes. But I think we do have international other places, it is beneficial to ensure that one is in the obligations, and what would happen if the Isle of Man was same - then seen to be being used as a back door to circumvent international agreements? That is not a probability but a The President: I think I am at cross-purposes with the possibility, and I do not think we should allow ourselves learned Attorney on this one. Are we on the same to be seen in the international scene as an innovator of that resolution? sort of abuse. So I will be supporting the resolution today.

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The President: Does any other hon. member wish to That the following persons be appointed to the Isle speak? If not, the Chief Minister to reply. of Man War Pensions Committee for the period ending 15th July 2002 - Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, first of all I would like to thank Mr Attorney for the able way in which he has Name of Body Representation Nominations explained the situation in legal terms and I think basically, to which to answer the hon. member for Onchan and the hon. entitled member Mr Crowe, it is not something that I personally would like to have to do, but in this particular case we are Council of 7 members, 1 of Mr B Barton MLC faced with an international obligation to which we need to Ministers whom must be a Dr R P Christian adhere, and I think with the assurance. . . and the only member of the The Lord Bishop thing that was missing from the Attorney's contribution DHSS Mr B Crompton was probably the time that it will take to get our domestic Mrs D Nicholson legislation in place, but I am quite sure that, as the hon. Mr J Brindle member Mr Lowey has said, as soon as our own domestic Mrs S Rolfe legislation is there the other will fall. So I would think that Mr Attorney has certainly got the same message as I have, Soldiers, 2 members Wing Commander Sailors and M C D Felton and that is it is not something that hon. members like; Airmen's Brigadier N Butler however, I would hope that they would support this today Families CBE on the understanding that we will try to get that domestic Association legislation through as soon as possible. So I beg to move. British Legion 4 members Major G T Crellin The President: Hon. members, I will now put the (IOM County) RBV resolution as set out at item 26 on the order paper. Those Mr A J Gunn in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Mr C J Mylchreest Mr W J Jones A division was called for and the voting resulted as follows: IOM Trades 2 members Mr W Noble Council Mr P Moore In the Keys - Independent 1 member Mr J F Leece For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir Order of Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Crowe, Duggan, Oddfellows Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Mr Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, Bell, Corkill, Kniveton and Gelling - 18 Independent 1 member Mr T E Moore Order of Against: Mr Karran and the Speaker - 2 Rechabites

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the Ancient Order 1 member Mr N Howell House with 18 votes being cast for and 2 against. of Foresters

In the Council - It gives me pleasure to bring before this hon. Court today the proposed membership of the Isle of Man War Pensions For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Luft, Mrs Christian and Committee. This body of 18 persons carry out their work Mr Delaney - 6 with great dedication and understanding and do provide a very worthwhile service to an important section of our Against: None community. The appointment is up to the period ending 15th July 2002. I beg to move the motion standing in my The President: In the Council, hon. members, 6 votes name at item number 27. have been cast in favour of the resolution, no votes against. I declare the resolution carried. Mr North: I beg to second, Mr President.

Mr Delaney: Mr President, may I ask: this is by ISLE OF MAN WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE - statutory appointment, these positions, and I obviously MEMBERS APPOINTED comply, but I would like the minister to give an undertaking to circulate to the members of this Court before we come The President: Item 27, the Chief Minister. back from the summer recess the attendance of members at this particular, very important committee over the last The Chief Minister: Mr President, I beg to move: three years.

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The President: Reply, sir? fair to say that the committee are minded that, even though the economic indicators may not readily justify regional Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, I can certainly get in initiatives, such initiatives should be given serious touch with the secretary, or secretary-general, or whatever consideration. his name is, Mr Tom Lord, and see if I can get that In considering this issue the committee examined the information on board. I beg to move. possibility of trying to replicate economic successes from the east and south of the Island, introducing them into the The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution north and west, for example. However, on closer standing at item 27 on the order paper. Those in favour examination it became clear that to try and manipulate the please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Island's economy in such a way would not be successful have it. as, in effect, government would be trying to manipulate market forces and could as a result stifle economic progress generally. ISLAND-WIDE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT — The committee feels that what is necessary is a number COUNCIL OF MINISTERS' INTERIM REPORT of initiatives for certain regions of the Island. For instance, Peel has just benefited from the injection of some £7 — DEBATE COMMENCED million in government moneys in the form of the House of The President: Item 28, the Minister for Trade and Marianna!' development, which hopefully will act as a Industry. catalyst for further developments in Peel, which will benefit the local and indeed the national economy. As we all know, Mr North: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: there are a number of waterfront and marina developments being discussed at the present time, and if these discussions That the Interim Report of the Council of Ministers progress and bear fruit they will also act as a catalyst for on Island-wide Economic Development be received and further economic growth in the region where they become the conclusions therein be endorsed. established. It will be the consideration of such initiatives that will be explained in more detail in the committee's The report that is before hon. members today is the final report. interim report of the Council of Ministers Island-wide There is one other area that I would like to refer to Economic Development Committee. In the time available particularly from the committee's report, and that is the since February, when the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr relocation of government facilities. On the face of it, it Singer, had his motion approved, it has not been possible would appear to be attractive and in fact desirable for to conclude all the lines of inquiry and research; however, government to take the initiative to stimulate economic a great deal has been done by way of background activity in a region by relocating a government department investigation. As the report set out, a period of consultation or other such administrative unit. Invariably such a move was entered into with the general public and, in addition, a would involve the construction of purpose-built number of particular interest groups were targeted for their accommodation and, at the end of the day, after having specific responses. As you will have read from the report, incurred what would be significant expenditure, the only a very good response was received from local authorities, benefit to the region may be the possibility of a few more traders' organisations and members of Tynwald, although people buying newspapers and sandwiches during their perhaps a little disappointingly only a limited response was lunch breaks. I do not necessarily believe that such a received from the general public. However, from the relocation would encourage the private sector to follow responses received, the general perception is that there is government's example. This issue will, however, be given an imbalance of economic activity across the Island, and further consideration and will be commented on further in steps should be taken to remedy the effects of this the final report because there would appear to be specific imbalance. Members will also have noted from the report examples where relocation might be beneficial. that at the date of completing the interim report a number It also became apparent from our investigations that of surveys were still ongoing, including surveys of the much of the concern around the Island at perceived reasons why certain companies had located to some of the imbalances in economic activity were due to changes in more favoured and less favoured areas of the Island. retailing. The retail sector generally is going through a period of tremendous change at the present time and Certainly, we will be including the results of these surveys consumers generally are seeking to obtain goods and in the committee's final report. services from an increasingly wide cross-section of sources. As I said in my opening remarks, a great deal of work The true nature of the perceived problem has to be has been done in establishing the basic principles of identified. Simply a lack of specific type of economic regional development and regional economic policies and activity in a region is an insufficient criterion. The existence whether such policies are appropriate to an island the size of relatively high unemployment is a more valid criterion. of the Isle of Man. I have to say that our conclusions to The evidence available would refute the notion that the date, based on an analysis of available economic indicators, Island has a regional problem in the strict economic sense, would appear to suggest that there is not an imbalance of certainly in the context of how the phrase is used elsewhere, economic activity across the Island and therefore regional where it depicts a situation of areas failing to develop even economic initiatives are not necessary. That being so, it is when the general economy is prospering. What differences

Island-Wide Economic Development — Council of Ministers' Interim Report — Debate Commenced T616 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 there are in regional unemployment are small, certainly in the committee by local authorities, Chamber of Commerce, absolute numbers and frequently even when expressed as trade organisations, Trades Council, Manx National percentages. Where there are economic difficulties Heritage, women's groups and individual businesses. The affecting certain areas, it is likely that these are small basis of the committee's views expressed in this interim pockets within larger areas and are likely to be in the report appear to me to be leading to no recommendations generally prosperous areas as much as the relatively less of major initiatives outside Douglas. I do hope the final prosperous areas. report proves me wrong. While a fully-fledged regional policy may be too blunt, The interim report puts forward few positive thoughts unfocused and insufficiently targeted to address economic and recommendations which would ensure a fair and social problems, carefully assessed initiatives and distribution of opportunity to everyone on this Island. There incentives can, of course, be employed to impact on a is no recommendation to prevent further the erosion of specific area. The committee is of the view that the best economic viability and activity in many areas outside means of minimising the prospect of genuine regional Douglas which are undergoing comparative hardship. The imbalance is through the continuation of the pursuit of the report's comments on unemployment, to me, seem to make general development of the Island's economy. But as for light of the situation of many people on the Island who this general policy, it would recommend action to first study live outside Douglas and who would like to work full or further the notion of a wider spread of government offices part-time but, either because of family commitments or and services; second, further ensure that forward planning, the inability to travel to Douglas every day, cannot find a planning decisions and assessments of the need for and job. Yes, 1.9 per cent is an enviable overall unemployment location of commercial development is conducted with position; however, if you ignore Douglas, which has more considerations of the likely impact on regional employment jobs than vacancies, the employment for the rest of the and unemployment in mind. The committee believe that Island is greater than that 1.9 per cent. consideration should be given to the value of establishing In my speech to the motion in February I quoted the job special planning zone areas in which procedures are vacancy figures and I believe they need repeating with the streamlined. There is a need to capitalise on the enthusiasm June figures to demonstrate that the low unemployment for development by local authorities in their responses to figures are of no comfort to a person seeking work and the committee, by encouraging both a positive and who does not live within easy reach of Douglas. The full- constructive approach to legitimate and acceptable time positions at the Job Centre in June were: Onchan and development proposals and also to the Department of Local Douglas - 161; Ramsey and the north - 9; Peel and the Government and the Environment when it comes to west - 2; and the south - 17. Part time vacancies were: consultations in planning strategies. We have to ensure that Douglas and Onchan - 63; Ramsey and the north - 10; we assess the efficacy of measures that might be designed Peel and the west - 4; and the south - 7. A detailed to encourage advanced provision of offices and factory examination of these figures, however, is much more premises in less favoured areas. It is important also to assess disturbing. There are no full-time vacancies outside future trends in retailing and the likely impact on retailing Douglas for building craftsmen, building labourers, any on the Island with specific reference to a provision in small driver including HGV and PSV, or professional and communities. administrative staff. There is one notified vacancy outside As I said at the outset, much has already been done by Douglas for a clerical post. The majority of part-time the committee in establishing basic parameters and vacancies outside Douglas are for catering staff and could conclusions. When I am in a position to present the well be seasonal. Add all this to the private recruitment committee's final report, hopefully some time in the organisations whose vacancies are approximately 70 per autumn, then I will be able to advice the members of the cent in Douglas; 25 per cent in the south; 5 per cent in the results of the surveys which are still ongoing at the present north; and negligible in the west, and a person living in time and also the committee's conclusions on the initiatives the west or the north can take little comfort either in the which can be taken to encourage economic activity in the number or quality of jobs available to them. regions. I beg to move the motion standing in my name. One of the preliminary conclusions, 11.1, said that lack of economic activity in a region is an insufficient criterion Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. as this can be a consequence of conscious policy choice; the existence of relatively high unemployment of labour Mr Singer: Mr President, I thought it disappointing is a more valid criterion. Surely the two matters are that the report requested by this hon. Court had not been interlinked and the conclusion needs to be that the completed and is only an interim report. However, having government makes every effort to encourage that choice read the report very closely, I think perhaps it is a good to be in the areas of need for the sake of the people and the thing that more has to be done and comments can be made economy of the area. now, before its completion. Conclusion 11.2 refutes the notion that the Island has a In my opinion the general conclusions reached so far regional problem in the strict economic sense, where are neither encouraging nor supportive of the positive views regional problem is depicted as a situation of areas failing expressed firstly by hon. members of this Court that to develop even when the general economy is prospering. positive action is needed to encourage Island-wide Does not the position of little employment opportunity, economic development, and secondly the report does not lower wages because of reducing business turnover, the reflect the overwhelming views expressed in support to closing of businesses and the transfer of existing businesses

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to Douglas exactly describe the position of many areas in Mr Cannan: Mr President, I first of all will second the the Island according to this definition of 'regional amendment by the hon. member for Ramsey. problem'? The position of Douglas, quite rightly, is compared to the rest of the Island when discussing the The President: It is already seconded. need for investment because of the dereliction and the urgent renewal of fabric in the capital. However, if we are Mr Cannan: Mr President, we have heard a speech talking of job opportunities then the people of Douglas from the Minister for Trade and Industry which I think, with a choice of jobs and a good public transport system had he represented a constituency in the north of the Island, have greater opportunities to improve their standard of would be termed bland and bureaucratic, because he fails, living and financial position and I sympathise as this report does, to realise that there are parts in the wholeheartedly with the views of the Chamber of north of the Island which are not in this phase of prosperity Commerce when they say that the avalanche of retail which we see from Douglas to the south. There is, development in Douglas will destroy the base of the retail particularly in Ramsey and to a greater extent in Jurby trade in the rest of the Island. The minister mentioned a where you have the north's main industrial estate, lacking total lack of forward planning and this is exactly what is any positive proactive development, an airfield which is happening now. not only underused but not used at all, and there is a large Investment in other areas would reduce the pressures area residentially zoned for development, which is the old on much of the infrastructure in Douglas which is under military camp, which is not taken up and is not taken up great strain. It also has to be recognised that despite any by developers because the industrial estate is not taken incentives government might offer to businesses to locate up, the facilities of the airport are not taken up and the around the Island or the transfer of government offices general uplift in the north of the Island is not taken up. outside Douglas, other companies will always wish to be To say, as this report does in 11.2, 'The evidence in Douglas so investment in the town will continue. The available would refute the notion that the Island has a problem, as I see it, is in the overall conclusion of the regional problem in the strict economic sense' - I refute interim report and despite the responses of various that; the Island does have a regional problem in the strict individuals and organisations to the committee which have economic sense, and this report gives little indication of indicated an urgency, the committee has to somewhat beg how it is to be addressed. It is, as I say, a bland and the question, using words like 'study further', `give bureaucratic report supported by a bland and bureaucratic consideration', 'assess the efficacy', 'likely impact'. I know speech from the minister. There is nothing proactive in the minister said that there is more information to be this to identify that the north of the Island needs positive gathered, but really I hope it is done very quickly. I had economic development to regenerate the main town and hoped that more progress, more initiative and more positive the villages for at the moment people are seeking views would have come from this committee in this interim employment in the north - and I know this - they have to report. Unless the committee becomes (and the in-word travel to Douglas, they come to their local MHK for seems to be) 'proactive', and strongly advises the references, you ask them where they are getting a job, the introduction of incentives to bring development and young people from the secondary school, from Ramsey regeneration to many of our towns and villages, then, as Grammar School, and they say it is in Douglas, it is in the has been said before, these places will become no more finance sector or it is in manufacturing. than dormitory towns to Douglas. and I cannot believe that There are just no jobs available in the north; there are that is the wish of this hon. Court. no jobs advertised in the north; there is no positive Therefore I cannot endorse the interim conclusions of commitment to creating employment and bringing an this report, as I believe they do not reflect the evidence so environment into the north where people can remain in far presented to the sub-committee. nor do they approach the north and work in the north. They are becoming more the problems in terms of finding a positive solution which and more commuter areas. Take Kirk Michael, for instance; is the wish of people and organisations representing a wide there was a time when most of the people in Kirk Michael spectrum of the Isle of Man community. Hopefully I will were employed in Kirk Michael whether it was Kelly be able to endorse the final report. Brothers or the farms or the small local industries. Kirk The people, the Isle of Man community, can see the Michael now has become a commuter village, ever serious divide in this Island's economy at present and the expanding. There are little more than 30 jobs within the unlikelihood of healing this gap in the future without strong village, and that includes part-time jobs in the shops. There supportive, positive action being recommended and is no proper employment. Jurby, of course, as we know, as accepted by government and all members of this hon. I have just said, has this big industrial estate to service the Court. Therefore at this time I move the amendment in the north of the Island with an airfield, and still nothing is hope that much more positive action will be promoted by being done, and I say to this committee, which was this sub-committee in its future deliberations. Thank you. specifically set up on the motion of the member for Ramsey, I beg to move: that there is a regional imbalance and it needs to be promoted and it needs a positive, proactive commitment Delete all words after 'endorsed'. from government.

Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve Mr Bell: Mr President, could I first of all correct one my remarks. point which has been made, that in fact this committee

Island-Wide Economic Development — Council of Ministers' Interim Report — Debate Commenced T618 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 was set up prior to the Tynwald resolution. It was set up about - and I have mentioned this many times - because by the Council of Ministers independently of this resolution first of all there is an absence of a Department of Economic coming forward, so it has actually had longer to deliberate Development in government which would give central this problem than might appear on the timing in front of control and direction to economic growth throughout the us at the moment. Island. Government's approach to economic development I accept that this is a major problem and, to bring about is fragmented and will remain fragmented until we get effective answers, we really need in-depth consideration some sort of central control, getting a grip of the overall of these problems and we should not be seeking some sort policy development. We have no economic development of knee-jerk reaction to pressures which are put on us from plan for the Island. Certainly I know the Minister for Local time to time. This is far too fundamental, far too important Government is bringing forward local plans, but there is to rush ahead with half-considered solutions. (Mrs no overall economic strategy to overlay over these local Hannan: Hear, hear.) Now, having said that, I too have to plans. Economic considerations by and large, in Island say, although I accept the work that has been done by the terms, are not considered when the local plan for any committee so far, I have the clear impression, reading it, particular region is drawn up, and that is a fundamental of a committee which is digging its heels in and having to failure of government. Until we get to grips with that be dragged every inch of the way towards recognition that problem we are never going to solve this wider problem. there is in fact a problem on the Island, and that I find As I have said, if we continue to pour resources into disappointing because I would have thought and hoped, in Douglas at the expense of elsewhere, we are also going to fact, that the committee would have approached this whole facilitate, in fact compound, what has already been issue with a far more open-minded and embracing approach happening, the demographic movement of younger people than perhaps we are seeing at the moment. in particular into the centre, and this is leaving the outer There are two or three main points which still cause me regions with an ageing population and, if that is to continue great concern. There is no doubt that the unemployment long term, these communities will not be viable. Ramsey figures, which seem to be a criterion we are basing already has, I think, in excess of 25 per cent of its development on at the moment, are very good for the Isle population already of pension age. Now, unless we can of Man. We have 1.9 per cent and falling, it would seem at get new jobs into the area, persuade young people to stay the moment. But the question is far more fundamental than there, for their families to grow there, it is going to have a just whether people have jobs or not; it is the location of major impact on all the other services in the town over the those jobs which is causing the problem at the moment. next few years. This problem requires vision, not just short- We certainly have 1.9 per cent unemployment. That is to termism, and that seems to me what has been lacking so be welcomed but, as has been said and as I have said many far. times before - and I have put my points in writing to the Now, the hon. minister has said that market forces really committee - the bulk of these jobs are being created in should be left to take their own chance, so to speak, that Douglas. There is no conscious effort whatsoever on the market forces will sort the problem out and that if we part of government to direct new employment opportunities manipulate market forces we will in fact stifle economic physically into the areas outside of Douglas. development. I would just point out that government has Now, this, I am absolutely convinced, is going to cause already manipulated market forces by imposing the long-term problems for the Island because, unless that international finance zone in Douglas which has triggered change comes about, you are going to find more and more off a lot of the investment and compounded the problems businesses flocking into Douglas. As has been said and as of late. Government tried to manipulate market forces with I have said before, the out-of-Douglas areas are going to the development of the freeport, which admittedly has not become dormitories and Douglas itself is going to become been quite as successful as was hoped but nevertheless more and more congested with further problems being was an attempt by government to divert economic activity created in that area. And when we talk about regional into that particular area. It could, I suppose, marginally be development, we must not lose sight of the fact that claimed that market forces have been tampered with by Douglas is a region as well, and if we are to continue with trying to develop the heritage centre in Peel to stimulate the economic growth that we have experienced over the economic activity there. So there are precedents where last few years, we have to recognise that it is only going to government has taken some action to try and stimulate continue with the acquiescence of the people who are economic activity, so to dismiss it as being in some way involved with it, and if Douglas, because of the short- negative so that it would have a detrimental effect on sightedness of economic policy on the part of government, economic development I totally disagree with and cannot gets more and more investment poured into it, more jobs accept at all. We have our own experiences to prove that it created there, we are going to compound the problems does work where it is approached in a very positive manner. which already exist of traffic, of parking, of housing and What I disagree with is again the fragmented approach of overdevelopment generally, and when the people of to this stimulation, that many parts of the Island have Douglas themselves get sick to death of this level of benefited from government activity, but Ramsey and the development and turn against economic growth, it is going north has not, and we seriously need that investment up to affect everyone. there. I know people are probably tired of me talking about So it is not simply a matter of leaving well alone and it, but the one opportunity we did have, which was the saying that market forces will sort the problem out Ramsey marina, has only now just got to the stage where eventually. I am convinced that this situation has come it has been taken seriously by government. That is nearly

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six years since the thing kicked off. Now, is that the pace 9 on page 18, 9.1 - I am rather disappointed, really, that government is going to work at to implement the the only pluses for such a move are in (a) and (b) and then recommendations of this report? there is a whole series under 9.2 which specifies the reasons We have a major problem. It is a deeper problem than I or the apparent reluctance for not looking really an awful think the hon. minister has given credence to. If we do not lot deeper than the committee has presently done so far. It take positive action as a result of this report, then I think is a fact, looking at the back of the document and we will see some major changes in the Island and the considering the amount of visitations made by members problems that Douglas are facing at the moment are going of the public to certain sections of certain departments and to get worse and the drift away from the other towns on boards, that there really is no need for some of those to the Island is going to increase as well with the subsequent actually be located in Douglas and that they could well damaging effects on local economies. We are an island serve their purpose being placed elsewhere. And this is government and we have a duty to see that all parts of the the problem we have in Douglas: it is because everything Island prosper, not that everybody on the Island is dragged is centralised here. I, for one, and my colleague next to me into Douglas. In that respect, we need to ensure that the here, represent East Douglas which I know many of you investment goes into the regions instead. We need to reverse are aware constitutes the town of Douglas, and we are only in many ways the trends which have taken place over the too aware of the problems of centralising everything in last few years. the town. There is probably a lot more that could be said about this but, as this is an interim report, I suppose at this stage Several Members: Part of the town. I will have to go along with it and give it my endorsement, but I do urge the hon. minister that this problem, while Mrs Cannell: It constitutes the heart of the town. looking at it from the perspective of being based in (Members: Oh! Laughter) It is in fact where this hon. Douglas, may not seem a major problem, looking at it from Court is placed and also the House of Keys and government the outside, it is a problem which needs addressing with offices and of course, as a result, with all the people some urgency, and I would very much hope for two things: employed by this government, we have an influx of people that first of all the committee will speed up its deliberations coming in from outside of Douglas and the consequential to bring forward its final report as quickly as it can; but parking problems et cetera. secondly I would plead with the minister to try and prise There is very little mention in this report of how we open what are obviously in some cases closed minds could actually deal with that in a proactive sense, but I advising this committee, get them to recognise that there believe that by seriously considering the relocation of some are other options that need to be considered and perhaps of the parts of departments to other parts of the Island, it is to move in this particular instance off the well-worn beaten track of efforts which have been tried and tested in the a reality and it should be seriously considered and not past. It is innovation and new ideas we want and I would dismissed, as it is here. Several points have been put here, hope that the committee will come up with them and not eight or nine or so points listed here as a reason for not simply trot out the same old platitudes that we have heard moving or relocating some of the offices and there is not over the last few years as an excuse for doing nothing. enough. It is not a balanced view, shall we say. But perhaps I will support the report as it stands at the moment but, that might be because we did not have a Douglas minister as I say, I would urge more haste on the part of the on this particular committee, and I think there is an committee. imbalance there, too, because we have predominantly country members on this committee, save for one of the Mrs Cannell: Mr President, following on from the hon. members there for Onchan. But again, Onchan, it has previous speaker when he said that the committee has always prided itself, is just separate to Douglas and it plays actually had longer to consider in that the committee was no part, it has a separate rate that is much lower than constituted by the Council of Ministers prior to the motion Douglas and therefore, to my mind, Douglas has not been coming before this hon. Court, if this is true, I would ask represented on this committee, and that is a shame. then, why has it taken the committee so long to consider Now, looking at the comments made on the final and report on an interim basis rather than coming forward conclusions, the very last conclusion, which is on page and giving us a more comprehensive final resolution? I 24, states: 'To assess future trends in retailing and the likely would also like to ask the hon. minister, the chairman of impact on retailing on the Island with specific reference to this committee, will his committee be seeking the verbal a provision in small communities.' Well, I am somewhat views and opinions from members of the public? Thus far disappointed that that has not been considered before. We we have been advised that they actually targeted particular have a situation now where the retail industry feel that organisations and asked for their views. If we are looking they have not been represented sufficiently by this for new ideas, more of the spirit of the thing, then I would government and in fact are fighting a particular planning suggest that it should go out to public consultation and application with regard to the Lake Road initiative, and that the committee ought to sit as a parliamentary select here we have a report that says, 'Well, we need to be committee would and consider the views of individuals, assessing the future trends. We need to be looking at this.' members of the public who may well have perhaps a little And meanwhile, of course, these other retail initiatives, bit more vision than hon. members do at times. these large companies that will damage the present retail Moving on from that and looking at the conclusions on infrastructure on the Island seem to be slipping in through the relocation of some government offices - this is number the back door irrespective of the view here that we need to

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assess. I would say that we need to more than assess, we them one of the attractions of the St John's office of the need to really get to grips on this. Department of Agriculture was that they did not have to Now, as a member of Trade and Industry, I have no go into Douglas. wish to offend my hon. minister - Now, I have suggested to previous Ministers of Agriculture that the whole of the Department of Agriculture Mr North: You cannot do that! (Laughter) should move to St John's. (Some Members: Hear, hear.) I believe it would be a logical department to move because Mrs Cannell: - but I can inform the hon. members of agriculture is very much centred on St John's with the mart this Court that, with respect to retailing, the Department and there is no doubt that St John's is in the middle of the of Trade and Industry just this year were given Isle of Man. I think it would also be an opportunity to test responsibility for it. It is only a very new responsibility. It the advantages and disadvantages of moving a government has come in rather late in the day, I would suggest, but it is department because it is a relatively small one, so I am there nonetheless. He has in fact given me delegated very glad that the hon. member for Michael, in his evidence responsibility for this and I am rather disappointed, but I to the committee, supported this idea. have discovered that there is very little information, very Now, my colleague, the present hon. Minister of little data on the retail industry in the Isle of Man. For Agriculture, the hon. member for Peel, suggested yesterday instance, we do not have any data that specifies the total that the west, and Peel in particular, have been neglected footage of retail space Island-wide. We do not have any and have not had their fair share of economic growth. data on the types of retail industries that we have, for Therefore I hope that she will actively support the move example x amount of shoe shops, x amount of food shops of her department to St John's (Some Members: Hear, and so on. There is no data available whatsoever. There is hear.) and indeed I would hope that she might perhaps a little bit of information from Treasury but that is it, so arrange it regardless of the work of this committee on really we are starting off from scratch with absolutely no Island-wide economic development, because, as I see it, it information - and, I might add, no budget - to look at this is a way in which she personally could positively bring growing problem and here we are, we have a committee more activity to the west in a way that would advantage, constituted by the Council of Ministers that says we need in my view, the whole of this Island. to assess the future trends. But before assessing future trends, we need to also assess present trends. We have to Mr Cannan: And the Water Authority to Peel. start with the present trends before we can start assessing future trends, so much more work needs to be done on Mr Downie: Mr President, I have listened to the debate that. thus far with some considerable interest and there seem to I will not labour on any more. I realise that other be two areas here. First and foremost, if we are going to members may wish to speak but I will be, as I indicated encourage new jobs and businesses to come to the Island, before, supporting the amendment which quite simply I think what we have got to do is to recognise what is states that the interim report be received, and I see no happening in areas which are competing with us, and any problem with us just receiving that report. I think that we member of this Court who travels away on a fairly regular would be stretching it a little too far if we therefore had to basis cannot fail to notice the huge potential that areas vote that the conclusions were endorsed when there is so such as Merseyside, around Heysham, Fleetwood, much question about the final conclusions in the interim Northern Ireland, southern Ireland have: tremendous report. Thank you, Mr President. development schemes available over there, start-up grants, all sorts of tax holidays available for these people. And Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I was rather surprised that this is what the Isle of Man has to compete with, and sadly the hon. mover of this resolution said little economic - I know we have got very good employers in the Isle of advantage would result from the reallocation of Man and they have been here - the last two or three years government offices and then went on to intimate that it we have had nobody coming to the Isle of Man of any would just mean a few more people buying snacks and note to set up, and I think what has happened is we have papers outside Douglas rather than inside it. allowed some sort of slippage. I am afraid that I cannot accept this at all. There would Now, if we want to try and address this problem, we be a very real and immediate advantage in reducing the have got to start putting together a Department of Economic traffic flow going in and out of Douglas at rush hours and Development, we have got to have people who are skilled also the parking problems because those working outside in this field and we have got to go out into the workplace Douglas either would not go into Douglas if they lived and seek new firms and be able to provide a system of outside Douglas or, if they lived in Douglas, they would packages which enable them to come and relocate in the be going in the reverse direction to the rush hours and Isle of Man. Having done that, hon. members, the biggest therefore not contributing to the rush hours. Furthermore, impediment to development in the regional areas of the it would eventually lead to more job opportunities for civil Isle of Man is that, like it or not, we do not have the servants and others in the public sector outside Douglas, infrastructure. There is no drainage on the Isle of Man because those who wanted to be outside Douglas could anywhere north of Ramsey, so if you are starting to put a apply for posts as vacancies outside Douglas arose, and I reasonable development together, you have no sewerage know for a fact there have been civil servants working at infrastructure and for most of that part of the Island you St John's who very much preferred working there, and to have an electricity system which is virtually non-existent.

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So there are major problems which are already inherent The President: Hon. members, I think the Court will within the system which continue to work against you. now adjourn. The adjournment will be until 2.30 p.m. Now, I have, in part of my role within the Department of Local Government and the Environment, tried to The Court adjourned at 1.01 p.m. physically get something done with Jurby. Now, I feel there is massive potential down there, and what it wants really is for Jurby to be picked up and offered to some big ISLAND-WIDE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - development agency who can pull some of these threads DEBATE CONCLUDED — MOTION CARRIED together and try and get companies either to come into the Isle of Man or relocate into there. Now, there has to be The President: We resume our consideration of item some seed corn money to do that, and we go round and 28 on the order paper and I think the hon. member for round in circles all the time because wherever you finish up, there is not any money. I think there is huge potential Rushen, Sir Miles Walker, is the first to speak. there. As far as relocating government departments goes, there Sir Miles Walker: Thank you, Mr President. When the might be some merit in that but, before I go onto minister was on his feet moving this resolution he said government departments, the area in my opinion that has that the most important thing of all was to continue the got the most potential for growth is around the Ballasalla drive for economic development, and I would like to place and Castletown area. That is the part of the Isle of Man myself firmly behind that statement. I think it is the most where, when you look at it strategically, there is a lot important issue of all facing us as members of this hon. happening. Government owns a lot of land in that area, Court, even bearing in mind that at the moment the the whole of Crossag Farm, for instance, and the area economy is driving itself forward, we have got very low around Balthane, but I understand there is a drainage unemployment and there may be some fears of some embargo there and it is going to be some years before there dangers of overheating. I think that those problems to me can be any more development in that area, and in fact I are far more acceptable than the opposite where you have know one firm that wanted to come here and operate a the problems of recession and growing unemployment and process where there was a considerable amount of water so on. I believe it is a massive challenge. It is very difficult involved and were told, `Get on your bike, the drains cannot and one of the most important things of all for business in cope with it.' These are the problems that we have got to the Isle of Man is for them to remain in a situation where sit down as a government - and somebody should be doing they can compete with others in the same field and of course this in the Council of Ministers or forming a sub-committee low unemployment, high rents and so on tend to mitigate - and address and then, when we have got areas that we against that competitive element that many of our firms can offer to firms, we can put incentives together and we have had in the past and need to continue. can go and look for people to come and locate. So we need to continue the drive for economic I have got no problem with the Department of development and I think the next important thing is to Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry going to St John's. It ensure that the planning process, and I am not talking about might be the way forward, but the only point I would like individual applications or decisions, but the planning to raise is that a lot of the existing properties that process recognises the need to provide opportunities to government operate from at the moment within Douglas accommodate that economic development and at the are sub-standard, and you cannot expect top-line companies moment I would suggest that there is a fair amount of to come in and rent those. All you are going to do, really, opportunity within Douglas for renewal, for renewal of is to sprawl the Civil Service out or the government offices for accommodation of industry and so on, but I machine out and extend it out into other areas of the Isle think if we look Island-wide there is a shortage of land of Man. that is allocated for these different land uses and certainly What I think we have got to do, hon. members - there if I look at my own area in Port Erin and Port St Mary and needs to be a special group looking at this. It needs people through the villages, there is very little potential or land who have some understanding of property and business with development potential for industrial or economic and the ability to work it altogether in some form of an expansion at all. economic development group and be able to put packages I think about a situation not so long ago where we had together and do the job in that sort of way. It is a difficult a very real interest or buyer, a commercial organisation to area to cope with, I know, but if you look at what has set up in Port St Mary, and the development plans could happened in some of these depressed areas in the UK, they just not accommodate what they wished to do and so they have managed to do it. Finally, the other big problem that we have got - we were tempted to move off into Douglas, because even in might bring these firms in, we might encourage them to Castletown at that stage there was not an area that could start, but we have not got the training programmes, we do be redeveloped. I can recall early on in my days as Chief not know what is required in the way of manpower and it Minister it was the only planning application that I ever is no good, in my opinion, just shovelling round existing felt a need to get involved with and because of that they jobs to different parts of the Isle of Man. That is not the did get a development approval in Castletown and so the solution. What we have got to to try and do is to look for south retained that commercial enterprise, but it was on new business, put it on a firm footing and hope that we its way to Douglas until that intervention happened, and I can improve the situation by that route. Thank you. recall in Port Erin where we had a commercial venture

Island-Wide Economic Development — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T622 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 which was very successful, which grew, outgrew its them and which they are now working to. So what we are accommodation, wanted to relocate in the village and it talking about in terms of the present remit is we have just was not possible and again they came to Douglas. So appeared essentially four months and that is what we have I think that the most important thing is for each of our had in terms of time resource to bring this thing to fruition. towns and commercial centres to have available land which Now, I may be going off the main theme slightly, but I is identified as available for industrial and office and would ask hon. members also to reflect, and I think the economic expansion. Council of Ministers may be at fault in some respects in The only other point I would like to make is on the terms of this, and that is when we are setting out on these marina front and we heard this morning the hon. member particular exercises, if we are going to have the Council of for Ramsey say that it has only just got going again. Well, Ministers put up a committee each time we want to set out I know it has had a couple of kick-starts in the near past to investigate one of these particular areas of activity we and certainly it had a fair amount of initiative behind it are going to create a bottle-neck, and I have said before in quite a number of years ago. For one reason or another it this hon. Court that I think we need to strike a better balance has dragged its feet and I do not believe that it has been between what can be done within the parliamentary forum government's fault: government has not altered its attitude in terms of carrying forward investigations of this nature towards that at all. But there is the Ramsey development, and what needs to be a Council of Ministers investigation which I see very much as a property development. There and, even when it is a Council of Ministers investigation, is the potential for a water retention scheme in Douglas, to what extent other members of parliament should be or whatever that is called, and certainly again, with my involved in that, because if we are not careful it is very constituency hat on, there is a potential for a yacht haven easy to say, 'Right, the Council of Ministers will do this development in Port St Mary, and if we are talking about a investigation', a sub-committee is formed, but you are real marina proposal, then I believe that that is the only ringing the change with the same eight, nine people, and site, and I say that and I am a supporter of the Ramsey that is, I would submit, not the way to expedite matters. scheme, but I see that as a property development scheme So we should consciously consider both inside and outside and I am fully behind it. of the Council of Ministers when these tasks are being I do think when we are talking about spreading more identified, how they are carried forward. economic development Island-wide that there has to be a Now, what we have in this report, and it is not held out question of whether or not resources, yet more resources, to be anything more than that, is a base. We have a are put into the Douglas water retention scheme and not considerable amount of data which has been collected and the yacht haven in Port St Mary and I think that that is that data has been subject to a preliminary assessment and quite a proper debate to have. certain conclusions drawn. Those are conclusions based I wonder if the minister when he is responding to the on the data, but quite frankly it gives us nothing more than debate could tell us what the situation is regarding the an overview, it gives us nothing more than a starting point, Ramsey project, what the situation is regarding the Douglas and as this report indicates, in fact it is specific on that water retention scheme and the Port St Mary yacht haven, point, what we have got to do from here is to move into and how they are seen to fit together, because obviously the specifics. That is where we are going to see some there is some competition between them, but of productive effort. We have got to move from here and look fundamental importance to Port St Mary is a yacht haven at specific areas within the broad regional frameworks and proposal. It is expensive, I believe it should be brought say, 'Yes, in this area there are these schemes and there into the capital estimates and I would like to see that done are these proposals which we can examine', and that as soon as possible. obviously is the next phase of this investigation. I am supportive of the resolution. I realise there is a lot So, fair enough, quite frankly I think what we have got of work to do on this particular front and I would encourage here may be very general, it may be very broadbrush, but the Council of Ministers committee to get on with the job. I think it is perhaps the most we could expect in the time frame that it has been worked up in, but it is the starting Mr Quine: Mr President, just one or two observations. point. Now we have got to go into the more specific areas I can understand members representing the outlying areas, and that, I think, is where it will be more productive. and that includes myself, wishing to see early, if not instant, Four further points if I may comment on and that is we activity to bring about additional economic activity in their were asked what the situation is with the Ramsey harbour particular areas, that registers quite easily with me, but I regeneration project. In fact it was the hon. member for think we have to live in the real world and the fact is in Rushen that asked this. That is progressing, in fact there four months, and that is the time that this present committee was a meeting only a couple of weeks ago. They are looking has been in being, it is beyond reasonable expectation that at the structure, they are looking at the mechanisms of you should have before you today specific trying to carry that forward. There is no problem with the recommendations in terms of particular areas. I really do principles but it is a complex exercise, but it is being feel that that is asking too much, and the hon. member for progressed, there is no doubt about that, that is being Ramsey has pointed to this committee being in existence progressed and the next major step will be that we would prior to this. Well, quite frankly, I have no knowledge about hope that when there is some common ground on the the activities. There has certainly been a sub-committee structure as to how it should be executed, how it should be of the Council with responsibility for economic activity commissioned and carried forward, then there will be a but not focused in respect of the remit that was given to particular check point where there will be a marketing

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exercise carried out by the proposed developers and they am a long-time exponent of that. I do not believe what we will then have to take a conscious decision whether or not have at the moment in terms of Trade and Industry they can sustain the proposal in relation to their research, represents anything like what a department of economic but at the moment it is a question of looking at the development should embrace and I do believe that the framework, looking at how the relationships between the sooner we refocus our attention in providing a broader various parties who are involved - different landowners, framework for the piloting of economic development the commissioners, DoLGE, Treasury - how that is all going better it will be and within that I would see industrial and to interface and then we will move forward to this testing commercial development moving into the hands of an of the proposal by a marketing exercise which the proposed agency, where we can bring to bear to a greater extent a developer has agreed to undertake and then we will know private sector ethos in drawing developers into these areas. more specifically where we go from there. (Mr Downie interjecting) Thank you very much, sir.

Sir Miles Walker: Is there a timescale? Mr Rodan: Mr President, I would like to urge acceptance of this motion on the agenda paper as opposed Mr Quine: Well, I would hope, because one just cannot to the amendment. We do have what is a very well-balanced put finite timescales on this when you are dealing with report, but it is of course just an interim measure, as other private enterprise, but I would hope that we would have a speakers have said, because what it does is lay down the more definitive position before us in about the next three framework for all those areas which have been quite rightly or four months. So I think that is as much as I could say at pinpointed, the need for economic incentives Island-wide, the present time. but the framework for all that to happen is of course the Again, the hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles Walker, planning system and it is no coincidence that the six has pointed to the importance of planning. That point has recommendations in the report are either directly or to a been well made in this report, and certainly, as the hon. lesser degree all concerned with planning, because member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, has said, we have to look at obviously any report on Island-wide economic this in terms of the overview, the broad strategic plan, and development has to be part and parcel of the planning as we all know, that is now in draft form and that will be strategy for the Island and what is in this report has to be coming forward. But it is not just that. I think also we and is consistent with the Island strategic plan, which the have got to take on board to a far greater extent than hitherto hon. minister has referred to, which is being worked up at the corporate aspect of planning and what I mean by that this precise moment, but given that the recommendations is that there is little point in having areas of land zoned for do centre on planning, I would just like to make a few certain developments unless in tandem with that we also comments on them. provide the other part of the infrastructure that makes that The second recommendation recommends action to land developable. (A Member: Hear, hear.) further ensure that forward-planning, planning decisions and assessment, the need for and location of commercial Mr Downie: Get on with IRIS. development is conducted with considerations of the likely impact on regional employment and unemployment in Mr Quine: That needs to be done. That is something mind, and what this is saying of course is that there is a which we have not really come to terms with to the fullest need for strong political decision-making and direction in possible extent at this time. So there is a need to take that order to create accepted policies on which to base a corporate view of planning, not just the narrow land use forward-planning strategy. A forward-planning strategy is viewpoint in relation to planning. the positive side of planning and it is from this that evolves Just one last point if I may and that is we often speak the development control process. Now, that of course is about targeting, we often speak about priorities. There are the area which the public are most familiar with and which considerable costs inherent in any or all of these proposals. is commonly perceived, and often quite wrongly, as the Somewhere along the line there has to be a reconciling of sole role of planning. It is wrongly seen to be restrictive what is possible, what we can afford and the order of and a negative process and not only by the public but, I priorities in bringing that forward. In the context of today's have to say, by certain elements within government and debate I would sincerely hope we will have as many government departments, and it is this that reinforces the suggestions as possible coming forward, because I am sure need for a strategic plan and for a corporate approach by the committee would be delighted to look at those and to government into setting the planning framework from evaluate them. They would be delighted to do so. But we which all else flows. cannot just assume that there will be funds for all and Planning can only be based on the best information as everything that can be dreamt up. It is just not possible. So supplied by other departments of government as to their there has to be an order of priority coming into this at some particular requirements. Planners certainly do not have a point in time. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the monopoly of wisdom as to what is required. It is for proposition that more needs to be done in certain areas to government departments to state what their policies are stimulate economic growth. I have no problem with that. I and for these to be incorporated within planning, strategic am as strong an advocate of that as anybody else and I planning and forward-planning documents. For example, shall certainly do all I can for to advance that. it is quite clear within existing strategic plans, the sector Mention was made of the need for a department of plans, which were first published in 1990-1991 as to what economic development. Well, as hon. members know, I the strategy of the Department of Tourism ought to be:

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`The importance of future tourist developments in the This is not an either/or situation; the development of our towns and villages is critical to the strategy. The capital town must be seen in parallel with the other areas. Department of Tourism should be encouraged to identify One last aspect of the planning recommendations that sites for the purpose of tourism, including hotels, in order have been made refers to special planning zones, and this that these can be evaluated and, where appropriate, is important. The concept was adopted in the Douglas 2000 incorporated within planning policy. It is felt that this international financial zone and it has been beneficial and approach will assist in the promotion and marketing of has demonstrated that the principle of a streamlined process such sites.' So the planning requirement is there for this to does have advantages. What we are talking about instead happen. of a three-stage planning process of initial consideration, It is up to the departments to take up the review and appeal is in effect doing away with the initial recommendations, which are in documents which are consideration and having a review process in place within the departments, and ensure that local plans reflect whereby all parties are sat round the table, the pros and the policy and that departments do turn up at local plan cons are thrashed out before the Planning Committee inquiries to have their policies tested by inspectors. There makes the initial decision and there have been advantages is no point our chief planning officer going along to an in practice to this. Lessons have, however, been learned inquiry and defending proposals of the Department of which should be introduced into any new such initiatives Trade and Industry or Department of Tourism in terms of and one of these lessons is the need for proper consultation land use and the local plan if that department is not there at pre-application stage, at planning officer level, and to have those policies tested as to their acceptability. interdepartmentally between departments of government So that is the first point I would make and it is only in in order to attempt to resolve any basic conflicts that are that way that there will be a creation of opportunities that going to make that application fall at the most basic are based on clear guidelines as to land use and it is this planning hurdles that are identified in the strategic guidance as to land use which will make obvious what documents, and it is this pre-application consultation that will or will not be acceptable in proposed development will promote confidence without commitment, and that is and so engender confidence within the public and the very important because the planning process must be seen private sectors. It is confidence on the part of potential to run without prior commitment at that pre-application developers and industry that proposals will fall within stage. accepted criteria of land use that will enable such The expediting of planning applications is the aim, but developments to take place. The Jurby plan, for example, only with the intention of reaching the proper outcome. has clear policies in place as to the appropriate land use There is no point in the planning system being blamed for already. It is for departments of government to get on and being slow when the problems in the application are one ensure that that framework accommodates the policies. of poor design or failure to comply with clear policy guidelines. No matter how streamlined a system you have, Mr Cannan: Can't you do something? if you have not done the proper consultation, that application is not going to get a resolution any faster. Mr Rodan: Now, I would mention, and it is made clear The need to identify those proposals which are in the report that the sector plans themselves lapsed last significant and which would actually benefit from being November, having been subject to a five-year time limit. directed down a streamlined route and what we are talking However, the basic policies, such as the one for the about, obviously, are the high-profile proposals such as Department of Tourism which I read out, are to be new office development, tourism or retail, as opposed to, incorporated within the evolving strategic plan rural for example, shopfronts, new windows or change of use, policies. because these more minor categories would incur delays It is mentioned as one of the recommendations also, due to the need for a hearing, because certainly the Douglas 11.5(v), the need to assess the efficacy of measures that 2000 regulations make clear that there is a need for a might be designed to encourage advanced provision of hearing and that hearing has to be scheduled into a very offices and factory premises in less favoured areas, and congested schedule of planning considerations of ordinary what this is highlighting is the difficulty actually in practice applications. So there is a need to structure the format in of establishing need and demand for location and size of which hearings would be required and the notification industrial units. Office accommodation as well tends to be period. either pre-let or destined for a specific end user or to be As far as Douglas 2000 is concerned, it may be helpful specific to a client's specification. So here again is the need to note that in 1995 there were 19 applications under the to be proactive and to take advantage of the planning Douglas 2000 procedures, in 1996 38 applications and so framework that is in place. far this year 11 applications. On average about a third of Mr Singer and I think others have touched on an aspect the applications are actively contested at a hearing and it of the report referring to Douglas, I think it was 10.4, and is in these such applications that the streamlined procedures while the report clearly recognises that there is a strong become of benefit, because all the parties, as I said, are case for regeneration and further initiatives to be directed round the table making the case and then after the decision, into the Island's capital, it is recognised within the planning if a party is still aggrieved, there is only the necessity to system that Douglas regeneration and development go to one more process: straight to appeal. So we can be initiatives must be seen in the context of parallel strategies talking of reducing a nine-month process down to perhaps for the other towns: Ramsey, Peel, Castletown and so on. half of that time. Of course if the application is made

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properly and complies with the proper policy guidelines a one of the things that does get me about this report - and decision can be reached in as soon as three weeks. So again obviously one will support it as it is an interim report - is there is a need for proper consultation in advance, but there that we talk about 'Isle of Man Limited', that this is 'Isle should be no implication that this is seen in any way to be of Man Limited'. Well, this report really looks to me more a developer's charter, but rather one which is designed to like 'Trotter's Independent Traders Limited', hanging reach, as I say, the correct conclusion expeditiously. about, waiting for something to fall off the back of a lorry, Another recommendation that is made of the six touches instead of trying to actually be in the driving seat, trying on the role of local authorities and again there is a need, to produce something, and I do hope from the input from especially in streamlined procedures, for early and positive the hon. member for Ayre that members will be asked again comment by local authorities involved and for their active to put their input into what they see as priorities as far as participation in the planning process, and this does not widening the economic base is concerned because at the always happen; the Planning Committee does not always present time I think upon this report really as a non-event have the benefit of comment by the local authority, which and quite a disappointment. is certainly a pity. We need initiative. We obviously understand that it is Measures are referred to, assessing future trends in the entrepreneurs that will create a lot of the business, but retailing and the impact on the provision in certain small we have to be there as well and we have to be proactive communities. Now, retailing and other studies are in fact and I do not think there is that proactiveness. I think there about to be carried out in the context of a Historic Burghs is too much of us waiting around, waiting for things to of Scotland survey which has been internationalised to the happen, so something falls off the back of a lorry and then Isle of Man and department approval was given the other we react to something. I think we have got to stop that and day for our participation in this process which is a system I think government has got to be more in the driving seat of assessment and health check on specific communities (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I hope that this committee in the Isle of Man which are to be identified and this will will write to every member of Tynwald and say, 'Right, assist in the forward-planning process. So that is a positive well what do you want?' There are issues that I have been development and I mention it to highlight ways in which trying to get done for years in Ramsey to do with the department is trying to be proactive in the matter of Pooyldooie and places like that, more small industrial units. strategic planning. All right, we have got some up there, but there is a crying So I thought it was important to highlight the fact that need for more small industrial units on this Island. If the six recommendations are very closely tied up with government has got to invest in more small industrial units, forward planning and development control and as such well then let us push it to the north. that of course is not the end of the story. This is an interim There are many other issues that one could raise, but I report but the report quite rightly lays emphasis on the do hope that when they do go back and they do start doing importance of getting the planning guidance and backdrop their deliberations again, they do ask members and take in place before initiatives can be taken by government on board ordinary members and maybe bring more ordinary departments and the economic initiatives that members are members onto these committees so that we are more of a quite rightly looking for. team and hopefully then we will be more proactive instead of reactive, waiting for something to fall off the back of a Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say there lorry and then we will do something about it. have been some very good points from certain members. I think the point from the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, if I could just make one or as far as this issue of widening the economic base is two brief comments because I have listened to the debate concerned is not just about economics but it is about social very carefully and I do not think that there is anything that engineering as well. It is about making sure that not has been suggested this afternoon which suggests there everything is developed in Douglas and the surrounding are any easy solutions to this particular problem that this area, creating urban sprawl, choking the very will of the committee is giving consideration to. I think we forget that people in this area for the economic growth that we want we are politicians and not someone that is going to in order to pay for our services and our health services, magically manage the Isle of Man into a different set-up our services in education and the likes, and I think that is than it is in at the moment, how it is developed. There why this is important. might be criticism because certain businesses have settled I think the second thing I thought was quite interesting in any one place, but to try to get those businesses to move and was a breath of fresh air was from the member for somewhere else there would have to be financial Ayre, the fact that he wants to see more teamwork and he inducements and if anybody was coming here and you were wants more input from people outside the Council of suggesting that they would go anywhere else other than Ministers, and I think it is excellent to hear that sort of Douglas, if that is where they wanted to be, then there input from a minister today, that hopefully we will see would have to be a financial inducement and nobody has more of this. So when members come up with ideas they come up with the suggestion of how that financial will not just be pooh-poohed and thrown away because it inducement will be engineered. You can have finance areas has not come from one camp or the other. and that is fine, but the loss of income from that has also I could go on to issues that I feel need to be addressed to be given consideration too. as far as the widening of economic development is The suggestion was made that private enterprise could concerned but I think that we have had a long debate. But possibly solve all these problems, but some companies will

Island-Wide Economic Development — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T626 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 want to be in Douglas, some, for other reasons, would want The President: The hon. member for Ramsey has a to be either at the airport or at Castletown, some have been point of clarification, I think. encouraged to come to the west of the Island, but there are reasons for being where they are, in the same way that I Mr Singer: Yes, a comment of the last speaker, Mrs think departments of government have developed. It is over Hannan - a hundred years ago since government redeveloped itself in the capital and it was not because it wanted to make The President: Sorry, sir. The last speaker has Douglas the capital, it was because that was where completed her address. It is not a matter for clarification everything was happening and so there was this movement on her address at all. then. Now it is being suggested and I can understand some Mr Singer: She said something that was incorrect. of the comments made about my department should be moved out, but I think if you look at the report, the report Mr Delaney: A personal explanation. actually has a comment in from my department which says that the majority of our staff are out and about round the Mr Singer: Can I give a personal explanation then, Island, not centred in Douglas as it is. We do not have a please? She said something about me that was incorrect. very large staff in Douglas but they do need to be near - or at least this is how they feel at the moment - the centre of The President: If the hon. member wishes to say that, government because they are a government organisation it is her entitlement to say it. It is not to be challenged by and not necessarily an organisation which is separate from another member at any stage or perhaps at a later stage, if government, and certainly from the accommodation point you believe it is incorrect in some way you can challenge of view the existing officers that we have Knockaloe and it then. Hon. members are entitled to express their opinion at St John's do need to be upgraded as it is, but if the in this Court and, hon. members, it is not a question of one department was to move to St John's, and I come back to member speaking and then another member who has the other point that I made, there needs to be a financial already spoken saying, 'You are incorrect.' That is a matter support if there is going to be a move of any department. for somebody else to pick up as you go along. We will There is nowhere outside of Douglas which is set up for a observe the rules of debate here, sorry, and move on to Mr government department to move into, even if it did give up some of the space that it was occupying at the moment Crowe, for Douglas North. in Douglas. There has to be something that they can move into and my understanding is that there are not many places Mr Crowe: Mr President, I will just rise on a point that outside Douglas where that is possible. But while it is very Mr Karran raised. He said very little has been done, we nice to say, yes, this department could move and that are like 'Trotter's Independent Trading Company' and we department could move, I do not think it is quite as easy as are waiting for things to fall off a lorry, but I would like to some members were suggesting. refute that most strongly because in the last 30 years - and The member for Onchan suggested that it was very nice maybe Mr Karran has been asleep for half the time - of the minister that is on this committee to say that other people should be involved in this committee, but my Mr Cannan: He has! understanding is that all members of Tynwald were written to to ask for their comments and eight responded. So it is Mr Crowe: - we have grown from a little tourist island not possible to include everybody. Everybody did not want 30 years ago to becoming a major international financial to put in a comment, even the mover of the resolution did centre, recognised around the world, which has created a not put in a comment and Mr Karran, I think, said that he lot of prosperity, a lot of jobs, and a short history lesson, if was a bit busy at the time and - we only look back at this - we started off with a banking sector, the banks needed the accountants, they needed the Mr Karran: I was one that put it in. Do not try and lawyers, they are all congregated around Athol Street, we mislead the Court. needed to build up a Financial Supervision Commission, we needed a centre of government, we needed an insurance Mr Delaney: No fighting between yourselves. Leave commission, we have got a thriving insurance sector, a that to us. thriving shipping sector, and they have all congregated in Douglas. Now, market forces have provided that and Mr Downie: Do not separate yourself from government. everybody clings together. Now, I can understand the problems out of town and I Mrs Hannan: He did put a letter in, I accept that, sympathise with the people, but it is a natural happening Eaghtyrane, but again I come back to the point: there are that has been forced by business generation, and whether no easy solutions and if everybody in Tynwald is going to we like it or not, business dominates the economy. It is the be involved in it then there would possibly be no need for people who put risk capital up who will determine where discussion in this hon. Court. they want to go. But I support the interim report for onward discussion Now, I can understand again that we can encourage of this particular issue but I do come back, even after people to go out of town, but this needs financial incentives, listening to this debate: there are no easy solutions to this as Mrs Hannan rightly says, you can create special tax issue. incentives, but if the people want to stay in Douglas . . .

Island-Wide Economic Development — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T627

Yes, I have read your letter, Mr Karran, it is here for what did he say? - lacking any positive proactive everybody to read and mine is in there too, if everybody developments. Good heavens! The hon. member for would like to read that too. But what I am saying is we do Michael knows that my department has planning not want to negate what we have, which is a vibrant, permission in principle for a film studio at Jurby and we thriving economy which is creating general prosperity for are hoping, because there is a void, to progress that as soon the Island, and I think the main recommendation that says as government and Tynwald will allow and that is in train we must seek to improve the whole economy for the whole at the moment and we will go ahead with that as fast as we Island's benefit is the one that I would like to see. possibly can. We accept in the report, under 11.3, we have said, Several Members: Hear, hear. "Where there are economic difficulties affecting certain areas it is likely that these are small 'pockets' within larger The President: Reply, minister. areas - and are as likely to be in the generally prosperous areas as much as the relatively less prosperous areas", in Mr North: Thank you, Mr President, could I first of all 11.3, and we will give consideration to the value of thank all those members, critical or otherwise, for their establishing special planning areas in which procedures comments within this debate. The committee, myself and are streamlined. What we have to dwell on is that the true the other three members, certainly have taken every word nature of the perceived problem, as we said in the and we will be noting at future meetings what has been conclusions, has to be identified and that is what we have said because, I have to reiterate, this is an interim report, really been trying to do. and I am sorry, and I think the hon. member for Peel As far as the hon. member for East Douglas is touched on it, we have not got any magic wand, we are not concerned, my hardworking colleague on the department, the Wizard of Oz, but hopefully we are totally committed Mrs Cannell, I am afraid I just have to correct her, she said to this Island and trying to work out in the final report just we have not targeted the public. We have. We advertised what can be done and, as one can get the idea from the in the press and we have invited comments and we hope interim report, in the final report we will have, hopefully, that we will get a lot more from members. some specifics and we hope that some of the members Mr Downie commented that we have not got the training now will actually come with some specifics, and I have to programmes. Sorry, Mr President, my department has got say I know that the hon. members, the northern team, the the training programmes and if any industry wants to hon. member Mr Singer who originally moved this motion change or re-adapt within any industry, the proof is there. and the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, certainly are My colleagues Mr Lowey, the hon. member of the Council, fighting their corner for a problem that they see exists in and Mr Bell both know that we have done it in the past the north of the Island, and certainly the unemployment and we will do it in the future and training is the key to a criterion, as we have said in the report, is valid and the lot of the future development on the Isle of Man. figures that Mr Singer gave, the hon. member for Ramsey, Really, I suppose, I have to comment on the hon. yes, there are fewer jobs available in Ramsey than in member for Onchan with that wonderful expression Douglas. And the hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles `Trotter's Industrial Traders', and quite honestly I totally Walker, commented on the economy and economic growth. refute that. I am afraid that my department is actively Just look what has happened for the last 10 years. Really, planning on specific areas, specific industries. The evidence have we anything to be ashamed of? We have not. But is there of what has been done in the past and what will be have we completed and have we really got things as we done in the future - want them? No, we have not. And do we live in the real world? Yes, we do, hopefully! Mr Delaney: 'Trotter's into Europe' !

Mr Delaney: It depends whose yacht you are on! Mr North: - and really I just wonder sometimes whether he really understands what economic development is all Mr North: Mr President, all members in this Court are about. We will be asking from the members, and I hope committed to the Isle of Man and I no less than any other the hon. member for Onchan will come forward with some and certainly we will continue to do that. specifics. I know he comes up with all sorts of ideas and Can I just say that the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr we will listen, whether we do anything or not, but we will Singer, commented on the lack of development in Ramsey. consider them, deeply. Well, there was confirmation from the minister for DoLGE I just got the feeling, and could I read just one line from about the waterfront development in Ramsey. That is a my introduction: 'first study further the notion of a wider specific example for the north of the Island and it will have spread of government offices and services'. That is exactly massive economic implications for Ramsey and the area. what I said, but some members appeared that they did not It will in inject a tremendous amount into the economy in want to hear what I said because we have said that we will Ramsey, and let us not decry, and it is just in its early stages, look at it and there are areas, and I know the hon. member the film industry which has put a lot of money in and around the Minister for Agriculture knows my views on the Ramsey and is continuing to do so, and look at what is Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, that I going to happen as far as Jurby is concerned if the film do believe that it can go to St John's. They have looked at industry continues, and it is, and the hon. member for it differently and I think it is just for debate. It is all a case Michael says that this report is bland and bureaucratic, of, as she says, money and priorities. We could move

Island-Wide Economic Development — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T628 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 several departments tomorrow within government if the The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment fails to money was there and that was a priority. carry, 19 votes being cast against and 4 for, sir.

Mr Downie: What are you going to do with the empty In the Council - buildings, with no car parking? For: Mr Delaney - 1 Mr North: Mr President, I hope that we are going to liaise with members and continue to liaise with local Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and . authorities on this. One of the problems that has arisen, Mrs Christian - 6 certainly within recent times because of the 1.9 per cent unemployment, is the shortage of skilled labour and that The President: In the Council, hon. members, 1 vote certainly has to be looked at and to say that we are not has been cast in favour of the amendment and 6 votes proactive and we have not had any new industries coming against. The amendment fails to carry. in, I have had discussions within the last two months three I will now put the resolution as set out on the order months, with companies looking to locate to the Isle of paper. Will those in favour of that resolution please say Man, international companies, and we are in competition aye; against, no. The ayes have it. with three other areas, and we have said, 'Well, if you advertise and you want skilled, we have a wonderful pool A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: of labour here, tremendous, probably superior in terms of light engineering to in fact almost any other area within In the Keys - the British Isles because of various cultural factors and we have a wonderful pool', but when we say to them there is For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir only 1.9 per cent unemployment, and I am trying to do a Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Houghton, Crowe, selling job, it is very difficult to convince them, and Cremey, Duggan, Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs hopefully we have one very shortly that will be deciding Hannan, Messrs Bell, Karran, Corkill, Kniveton, and it remains to be seen, but we are proactive as far as the Gelling and the Speaker - 21 economy is concerned. All the committee, myself included, will work to Against: Mrs Cannell and Mr Singer - 2 promote and work out some solutions, specific if we can, to the regional economic development round the Island. The Speaker: Mr President, the resolution carries on We are, I can assure hon. members, committed. Any ideas the floor of the House, 21 votes being cast for and 2 against. that you have, please let us have them. I do not believe that it makes any difference, the hon. member for Ramsey, In the Council - and I understand his thoughts on putting forward his amendment, but I do not think at this stage that one should For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs not agree with this report: it is an interim report - please Christian and Mr Delaney - 7 support this. We will carry on and hopefully we will come with some specifics in the autumn so that we can have Against: None another excellent debate on the problems facing the Island. Thank you, Mr President. The President: In the Council, hon. members, 7 votes have been cast in favour of the resolution, no votes against, The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out the resolution carries. at item 28 on the order paper and to that resolution we have an amendment in the name of the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, which has been circulated on the white URBAN REGENERATION - paper in your possession. Now, those in favour of the DLGE REPORT RECEIVED amendment standing part of the resolution please say aye; against, no. The President: We turn now to item 29 and I call upon the Minister for Local Government and the Environment. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys - Mr Quine: Thank you. Mr President. I beg to move:

For: Messrs Cannan, Houghton, Mrs Cannell and Mr That the Report of the Department of Local Singer - 4 Government and the Environment on Urban Regeneration be received. Against: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, As intimated to this hon. Court in January 1997 I Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs recognised the need to revitalise certain inner town areas, Bell, Karran, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and the not least in Douglas. At that time I reminded hon. members Speaker - 19 that meaningful revitalisation is an expensive, complex

Urban Regeneration — DLGE Report Received TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T629 and costly process. This report, if it does little else, threshold; and thirdly, increase the financial assistance underlines that latter statement. available, enhancing both grant and loan, additionally to It is clear from the Isle of Man Housing Condition secure any enhanced grants and loans by a charge on the Survey 1994 that much has been achieved over the last 10 property. years in improving the general standard of housing. In The department favours a single housing improvement excess of 85 per cent of all private dwellings were classified scheme covering the areas of improvement listed at as being in a satisfactory condition, within the remainder paragraph 25 which would provide the department with 15 per cent were classified as unsatisfactory, 10 per cent maximum flexibility. represented properties in need of repair and less than 5 per Hon. members will note that there appears to be a cent were considered to be unfit. Between 1984 and 1994 particular problem with properties in the private rented the number of unsatisfactory dwellings is estimated to have sector; at least that was the case at the time of the 1984 declined by 60 per cent. Unfit dwellings over the period is house condition survey. This apparent problem area will estimated to have declined by 70 per cent. So quite clearly be revisited and consideration given to ways and means to a great deal has been achieved over the last 10 years. induce private landlords to undertake essential repairs and Clearly the housing improvement schemes presently in improvements. place have had a very significant beneficial effect. This If I may now turn to what I feel is the real issue: urban report questions certain aspects of these schemes in terms regeneration. The housing improvement schemes can be of meeting present day needs and more particularly in the amended and fine-tuned but they do not address in a context of inner town regeneration but in doing so meaningful way all the disincentives to inner town living. recognises what these schemes have achieved. Unless and until outdated dwellings can be replaced or Reverting to the resolution, the department has been substantially remodelled, few residents will be attracted requested to look at ways to offset the effect of value added back to the inner town areas. tax upon improvements to properties. The present position Hon. members will be aware that a proposed area for is referred to in paragraphs 8 to 9 of the report. The scope urban regeneration has been incorporated into the draft for offsetting VAT is dealt with in paragraph 14. Douglas local plan. An urban capacity assessment for this The first option is to negotiate an arrangement with the area has been commissioned and the results should be United Kingdom for a variation of the rate applied. It is available within two months. Column 2 to annex I indicates open to the Isle of Man Government to seek such a variation what this study will embrace in terms of information to be as part of a social policy. This approach is not favoured by collected. This urban capacity assessment report will be Treasury who are concerned at the problems inherent in analysed, issues and options identified and hopefully targeting the proceeds of any tax concession. solutions formulated. What can be achieved, over what A further option is for government to reimburse VAT period of time and at what cost will then be known to us. paid on materials and/or labour arising from the renovation Some of the constraints and obstacles can be anticipated: of specified buildings. This could be viewed as a higher cost of development, assembly of land for circumvention of our arrangement with the United redevelopment, to mention but two items. Higher Kingdom Government. development cost is almost inevitable, for replacing The third option which has been identified is to enhance housing stock would have to be of a higher standard. Land the level of financial assistance available through the assembly also generates an additional cost. Planning various schemes to compensate for the VAT element. This procedures apart, to what extent government should option could be the easiest to implement but has its contribute to the solution of these problems must also be downside. posed. Should government undertake or facilitate land This important issue of offsetting of VAT calls for further assembly? What, if any, part of the additional cost should in-depth study with a strong input from Treasury and action government meet? Counters to these constraints and will be taken on these lines. To be realistic, it is more likely obstacles are also readily identifiable but these can be set to be taken on board in the broader context of urban aside until the urban capacity assessment is to hand. regeneration, with which I shall deal later, than housing As intimated in paragraph 3, this report is neither final improvement generally. nor definitive. It identifies some but not all of the problems The second aspect of the resolution asked the and suggests some possible ways forward. I trust it certainly department to address ways to encourage people to reside does provide a base document to stimulate hon. members' in town centres. Our approach has been to look at what thoughts and suggestions, to which I look forward. By way can be done short term, that is, through the house of amendment to the housing improvement schemes, some improvement schemes, and in the medium/long term in progress can be made in the short term. It seeks to confront the broader context of urban regeneration. One reason for the medium/long term by way of urban regeneration, but taking this approach is that the housing improvement schemes expire at the end of August 1997. only as a starting point. Ultimately what can be achieved In paragraphs 16 to 24 of this report a number of possible will evolve on the all-important issue of resources. ways to improve the schemes have been identified. Firstly, Mr President, I beg to move and look forward to hearing we could remove or ease the burden of requiring applicants comments and suggestions from hon. members. to undertake a full schedule of works; secondly, we could provide greater assistance to lower-income property Mr Rodan: I rise to second, Mr President, and reserve owners, possibly by adopting a lower taxable income my remarks.

Urban Regeneration — DLGE Report Received T630 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the first thing I would like that you have actually put some proposals forward about the hon. mover to clarify is the point that this is an interim what needs to be done as far as urban regeneration is report, that he will be reporting back in October with concerned, because the point is if we do not get down to something that is meaningful. As I said with the previous dealing with this issue seriously and with some sort of report as far as decentralisation and widening economic strict timetable, the policy of the minister to stop the urban development which I was talking about previously, where sprawl, which I totally agree with, we are going to end up they have really basically just let it go and go with the with a situation that all hell is going to be let loose in this flow and whatever falls off the back of a wagon we will Island again if we do have these hundred thousand square pursue, in this report I feel that there is no initiative, there feet of office accommodation filled with new staff, because is no spirit, there is no nothing and what really upsets me they are going to need homes. That does not take anybody is the fact that I believe one has been betrayed as far as of any intelligence to work out, even a director of 'Trotter's this is concerned, not by the DLGE but by the Treasury Independent Traders', like the hon. member for Middle. because the fact of the matter is when the VAT We are going to have serious problems and I do not think Consolidation Bill was debated before the last general we have the luxury of just sitting around and waiting for election there were promises made to me that there would that to happen. I think, as the hon. member for Ramsey be initiatives taken in order to offset the cost of VAT. said in the previous debate, about knee-jerk reactions. That Now, when we went into the details of the proposal of is what is going to happen if we do not address this issue breaking the customs agreement it would have meant that seriously of urban regeneration. we would have been £1'/z million worse off by breaking I hope, as I say, that this report is an interim and we will the agreement than by bringing in our own local initiative see something and money must be made available and we by the DLGE. must see some imagination as far as it is concerned. I have Now, these were promises that were made that, yes, we already spoken of what I would like to see with the minister. would do it this way, promises that are broken as far as I I believe it would be wrong of me really to advertise the am concerned. That is why you have this report here today. fact here if he can do some negotiations, and I have great That is why I put the motion down about this issue, because confidence now from what he said in the previous speech at the time they knew with the election coming up that it that we are actually going to see some action on that front would have been very difficult for them not to be able to from other members that are not in the Council of Ministers. lose that proposal of mine which would have then had to But what I do feel is that we must not allow ourselves go towards going for a virement. to delude overselves. If this office accommodation is going I want to win when I am right and I believe that that to be filled and we do not want urban sprawl to the bottom would have been an own goal, to have done it on that basis, of the Richmond, then we have got to get down and get because it was not the most effective and most efficient working on this job as a matter of urgency and I hope way of doing it. So I did not go ahead with the amendments something will be back in October with some more details to the VAT consolidation Bill and here we are - what? - six than there are at the present time, because the present report months later, after the new administration and there is no really does nothing, absolutely nothing, except tell us what light at the end of the tunnel as far as that is concerned, the position is at the moment, and I do not need any lesson and I hope the minister will make sure that he presses this on history from the minister, any more than I do from the point at the Council of Ministers, that the fact is that you member for Douglas North about how the economic base want people to act responsibly and this is what happens. of this Island was made and how the labour Party had a I would just say as far as the report is concerned, if it considerable amount of work in contributing to that was a body you would not be looking for any initiative, economic base and diversification. you would be looking for any signs of life because it would be in a vegetative state. There is nothing in this report that Mrs Cannell: Mr President, unlike my colleague from is of any use, of any light as far as the core issue of urban Onchan, I actually welcome this particular report and as a regeneration is concerned. There is nothing in this report new member I find it useful that in it it clearly demonstrates at the present time. So I do hope the hon. minister will the present position and also looks at the faults and errors, come back in October with some proposals or with another if you like, and areas where improvement could be made interim report on what has happened because I believe that in the present system. So from that point of view I actually something should be done as far as this is concerned. welcome the interim report and I am pleased that the hon. I would say that I applauded the stance that the hon. minister has kept his word and has brought this interim minister for the LGE took about not wanting urban sprawl report forward at this time. surrounding Douglas and the consequential social problems But actually looking at the different parts of it, the that we have got to face if we allow that urban sprawl to conclusion I have no problem with, the way forward on go ahead. urban generation I have no problem with, but looking at What annoys me a little bit is that we do inputs into the page 4 and the revision of existing financial support department and I am sure other hon. members have put schemes, can I ask the hon. minister, on number 19 where inputs into his department and there is not anything there it highlights that 24 per cent of the private rented sector is of any recognition of the points that we have written in unsatisfactory, the conditions are poor in other words, about. There is nothing in the report to say that. Even if it whether or not his department has actually sought to update is going to be misquoted and misunderstood by members the 1976 Miscellaneous Provisions Act which governs the in this hon. House, at least there should be some recognition regulations for private landlords in terms of the property

Urban Regeneration — DLGE Report Received TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T631 which they rent out? Some time ago now, not this present because if you do not ask, you do not get. It is all very well minister, not the minister before him, but the minister sitting back and saying, 'Well we won't get it because we before him I wrote to on that occasion, having identified didn't get it last time, so we won't bother.' I think if we through a local authority that that was sadly lacking in are going to be proactive we have to keep knocking on terms of provision, i.e. it states in one part of it that the that door in the UK and we have to keep saying, 'Look, landlord must provide a wholesome atmosphere for his we have a serious problem here: give us your ear', and if tenant, and 'wholesome' is really not sufficient for today's they do not listen, then we go again and we make them needs. So we are 20 years down the road and that needs a listen. Eventually they are bound to cave in; if we are great big overhaul and perhaps we could see improvement persistent enough and we show enough courage they will in that direction. cave in. (Interjections) The secret, of course, is to go with The living above the shop concept - I am pleased that 12 requests and in reality only hope to come out with three, in the new Douglas town plan one particular area within but provided they are the right three, then that is fine. Thank my constituency is proposed for change of use in that it you, Mr President. will provide permission for those who want to operate a business on the ground floor - we are talking about a house Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I was not going to say now, what was formerly a residential property - the living anything in this debate but I feel I have to in view of the premises above and the business underneath. Again that is remarks by the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, who a good concept and there is a green paper available within referred to the VAT Bill, which I actually took through the United Kingdom at the moment and one in Europe and another place and to promises that the question of VAT on it is actually included as one of the positive concepts of building repairs would be looked at. This promise was urban regeneration and I would suggest that perhaps other actually made by the present Chief Minister, then the hon. areas could be identified where we could achieve that, Treasury Minister, and the promise was totally honoured, particularly where we are looking at derelict areas, unlike the situation that the hon. member for Onchan has particularly in part of my constituency of course which is unfortunately suggested. It was completely honoured, the Douglas. Treasury looked into this matter very carefully and The other point I would like to make is that the area furthermore it is interesting that annex H of this very report that is covered by conservation status to my mind is grossly sets out the position in some detail in regard to a question underfunded and this again needs urgent attention, I would by the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, which was suggest. It is all too well for us and other organisations to answered by the current Treasury Minister in January of identify areas which they regard as having special interest, this year and in that the present Treasury Minister is shown architectural interest, history et cetera and say, 'Well, we as saying, 'My department is always looking for ways in ought to designate that as a conservation area.' I applaud which the Island can become more competitive in the area that and to my view I would like to see the whole of the of indirect taxation but at the same time we must also Isle of Man designated as a conservation area because all collect VAT and duties to finance government services, of it is important and it is all very beautiful and it all has a which are tending to expand faster than our income', and significant part to play. But in reality of course certain areas again he then talked about the various categories of lower have been designated and there is very little by way of rates of VAT in the EU and he said, 'The question of finance and grants and schemes to enable the owner of renovation of existing domestic buildings and the standard these particular properties to maintain the standard which rate of tax which is applied to such work and whether to would be expected in a conservation area, and that needs relieve such work from VAT is a matter which has been attention. raised before, as recently as October of last year, and is But just finally going on to the comments made by the often considered by the Treasury.' I therefore want to make previous speaker in terms of the Customs and Excise it absolutely clear that the Treasury totally kept the Agreement with regard to the provision of VAT, I would promises that were made at the time of the VAT Bill. welcome a review of the Customs and Excise Agreement and I feel that we, as a government, actually owe it to our Mr Brown: Mr President, this in fact, I would suggest, people to review that agreement before too long in the is one of the most important debates that we would have future. I mean a proper independent inquiry into the excise before this Court and in fact, even allowing for the debate agreement. that was on previously where members expressed quite a I think that is basically all that I need to say at this point number of views, a lot of that all relates back really to this other than the options, options 1, 2 and 3 on page 3. I point of urban regeneration and that does not matter how believe in option 1 where it addresses the issue of drawing you look at it - ultimately houses, businesses, jobs, and negotiating for a variation with the United Kingdom everything is all tied together with urban regeneration, Government. Later on on the following page, of course, urban generation, holding the smaller and older towns Treasury are not very hopeful about that and, I hope I am together, and I think that that is something that is very wrong, but the way I am reading it is that it is more or less important. put to one side as something that is not achievable, and I I only have a number of points on this because, whilst I believe it is prejudging a situation without properly testing do think it is important, I do think whatever we say here, it and again I would fully support a delegation from this whatever is written in these reports, whatever is determined government going to the United Kingdom Government and when the department comes back, all I can say is that asking and keeping asking for some kind of flexibility here, without real, and I underline, real commitment from the

Urban Regeneration — DLGE Report Received T632 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 department from its minister down, nothing will change. So it is all, in my view, part of making sure the whole In the last two years we have seen virtually nothing being thing works together and I would just say to the minister, down through the grant schemes, the property grant when you are looking at this I believe you have got to be schemes we have seen no new houses being built by the extremely broadminded, not listen to Treasury too much department, we have seen nothing at all happening in the because they will be very much on the financial aspect older towns and villages which was happening to pre-1994, and they have got an input which I understand they have and quite clearly there is just a lack of commitment both got to put in and say, look, where are you coming from, financially by the department to prioritise this area and in on the cost implications to us?', but in terms of generality fact to prioritise its staffing resources into this area, because you have got to be as broad as possible for the benefit of when they were prioritised we had a considerable effect the Island because the implications are what we have seen on regenerating areas, and to give examples which are which is that we have more and more spread into the quoted in this book, the Queen Street in Peel, Charles Street countryside, and that might be cheap for government regeneration, albeit small, but having a major impact and because in general terms it is not a great matter to us, it costing government at the end of the day virtually nothing just happens, but in fact it costs us later and that is the except time, commitment and the will to do it, and without thing you have to do, you have to take that long-term look, all that it does not matter what nice words any of us say, and I think that is very important. unless the department is committed to invest and do it and It was mentioned about living above the shop, and that make it a priority, we will be back here in five years or 10 is a concept I am very keen on and was very keen on when years and the same will be said, because you cannot make I was at the department. I have to say, though, there are the older towns regenerate unless you are actually major, major problems with it. The UK have done it in committed to doing that. And we are not just talking about certain areas, but they have done it by throwing money at the properties, we are also talking about the environment it. They have not done it by it reasonably cost-effective scheme, they have actually swamped the schemes with that is there, the environs, everything - all need pushing money to make it work, because the difficulty is that it is forward to improve them, and very importantly, ensuring very difficult to convert many of the properties where the we retain and enhance the individual characters of those people living above them are not the people who own the areas, for example Peel, Ramsey, Castletown, Port Erin, property and run the shop because then you come into fire which all have slightly different architectural characters regulations, separate home and all the implications of that which you have to deal with and of course sometimes it come with it and in the Isle of Man, of course, many of the may cost you more. properties are small and therefore you cannot create a So I just make the point back to the minister: without separate entrance way without destroying the shop and you commitment, without real commitment, nothing will cannot get into the back of them because of the nature of happen. It does not matter how many reports he brings how most of the towns are developed in the Isle of Man forward, and that commitment starts with being able to and it becomes a major, major problem. So whilst it is provide money to generate that interest. something that maybe and I hope can work in certain areas, There are many people who say, and I would just add a it really is quite a difficult one to deal with. point, the minister said maybe we limit the amount of The other one I think that we could have quite a taxable income that we allow, and I would just say the significant effect on, and again this is one that I have looked first priority as far as I am concerned, so he knows where at, I suppose, very much from my own constituency point I am coming from, is the property, because the person you of view, is where, apart from eight public sector houses, are talking about could die tomorrow, but the property will we have had no new private houses built in Castletown of not. The property will only die if you let it fall into such a more than two at a time since about 1978, and the problem decaying state that it has to be demolished. is that we have a situation where you then have to go into So your first priority, if you want to regenerate your the old town, which is great because you want to get the town centre and you want to retain your buildings, has to older properties bought up, but the problem is the be the property, and that comes from planning and government mortgage scheme recognises the cost of a new designating the area, making sure it remains residential or property, in other words it has a limitation of £50,000. and retail, and we have seen what has happened in Douglas the maximum mortgage you can get is £45,000, and that when it was changed from residential to office: Hope Street has not been altered since the scheme was introduced, I do has died, all round there, all derelict, boarded up. It might not think, in 1991, and again I hope that will be altered, be like that for years depending on what happens to the but on the older property market the prices are inflated development plan if it is changed again. But that is the and in my time, for example, most of the older properties, effect that can have. even the small older properties, are in excess of £60,000. But the other point is, of course, that the properties So we have a problem where local people have to move themselves are the priority. The individual who happens out of the town because they cannot buy in the town and to live in that property will of course have resources and therefore you get properties not being done up maybe or they will all be different. But if you lower the threshold bought up in the type you want, and it is a knock-on effect too much you could actually end up then in a position where of how you ensure that people who want to live in the area the grant scheme is not attractive enough and again you live in it and do not come and live in north Douglas, up in have a problem where you do not get the properties done Governor's Hill or whatever and expand that out of all up. proportion, but actually can live in their communities, and

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I think government has a role to influence this as much as on the VAT issue, which I think is included in the report. possible and I believe it can do that by providing support. The annex has been referred to already and the issue of The last bit I would just say at this stage is regarding flexibility was answered to a question in the name of Mr the VAT and I think it is just worth considering, as I Rodan in this hon. Court and that is in the text, so I will understand it, what we can do within our VAT agreement not go over that text again. But I think it is important for and that is there are certain parameters in which there is members to realise that flexibility has been sought on two flexibility and I believe as a government we have been occasions in this area, because at the end of the day it is successful in the last 10 years or so in negotiating, with not just the Isle of Man that has an urban regeneration the hard work of Treasury officials and the minister at the problem, it is a problem that is far worse in fact throughout time and his members, an agreement with the UK to get the United Kingdom, and so there are pressures in the some flexibility in certain areas, something we did not think United Kingdom to have some consideration over VAT we could achieve, but we did, and that is fine. I understand issues on older properties and work to be done in those we can not have that same flexibility in terms of housing, sort of areas, and on both occasions it has been made quite in terms of taking VAT off the cost of the housing, and that clear that this is a situation where flexibility cannot be is a problem for us. negotiated under the terms of the agreement, and bearing Now, whether or not there will be a change in the UK in mind how important that agreement is to the economy on how they determine VAT on older properties I do not in an overall issue, how a great amount of the Manx know, but I believe the way to deal with that is by a grant economy is dependent on this agreement, then that is scheme which compensates for the VAT being put onto something we have to live with. But we are very fortunate the property where certain works are undertaken and that we do have this system of schemes which the therefore I look forward to the grant scheme coming department is undertaking a review of, and it is a big job forward from the minister and his department to actually and I am looking forward to what comes forward. try and achieve this because I do think it is important. But one also has to remember, all hon. members must The other thing - I would just like to finish on one note remember that what we are talking about here is extra - is I think we should be, not complacent, but we should at expenditure on top of what government provides at the least recognise just how much has been achieved since the moment. We often talk in terms of incentives by removing housing survey report of 1984 and the housing survey taxation. Sometimes an incentive can be by applying taxes report of 1994 where it clearly identifies in that that the somewhere else and certainly I am aware that successive number of unfit properties has substantially declined governments in the United Kingdom have in fact examined, because of many things that have happened in the Island because it is their duty to examine options that are put in in terms of investment in properties and, yes, part of that front of them, the application of VAT to new property, will be of course new properties that have been built, but which would level the very playing-field that people are there is no doubt, if you look round the older towns and concerned about. Now, that is not something that is on the some of the older villages, you can see how much the agenda but it is something to bear in mind to balance the properties have been improved and some of that has been argument because at the end of the day, however which due to the availability over a period of time of grants and way we tackle this problem, if we are talking about a new also of course, very importantly, because we have got most system of grants in our circumstances here to generate the of our people in work and earning moneys that enable them areas that we see the urgent need for, it is going to take to buy and improve these properties. funds to do that and that sequence of events will take place But I do look forward to us dealing with this later in all the policy and budgetary considerations that because I do think it is a very important matter that has to government has to undertake, it will take its place in the be progressed. priorities as determined by this hon. Court at the end of the day. Mr Cretney: Mr President, I will not take up the time So whilst in this debate we are focusing on urban of the Court a great deal but I would wish to place on regeneration, at some other time we will be trying to record the thought that a number of people who I represent, balance this priority along with many other priorities, along with my colleague, since the time of the Douglas whether they be education, health or whatever that may town plan were disappointed that a great deal of the work be. But what we are talking about is extra funds which in that was seen that it would only be office development will come from increased economic activity or from extra which would be regenerating the town centre of Douglas, taxes, and we must bear that in mind and that is the point I and the words that have come from the new minister in wish to make today, but to point members to the terms of his commitment, as part of the regeneration of explanation in the report regarding VAT which is obviously Douglas, to help to provide some heart into the town by steering the Department of Local Government and the breathing some life into it by trying to do something about Environment towards the solutions that they are now bringing some people down to live in the town centre, is engaged in, and I hope that that explains why they are something which is very much welcomed and you have going down that particular option. It is with the advice of my support. Treasury but it is the most practical way forward for the Isle of Man, I believe. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I will be brief. When this report first surfaced and I first looked at it, as Treasury Mr Waft: Mr President, when I looked through this Minister the first thing I looked at was for an explanation report it brought back many fond memories of when I was

Urban Regeneration — DLGE Report Received T634 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 a member of the department and I was there when this put it in bold print, exactly what is the substance of this report was produced and I had responsibility for that little report, so I can confirm that this is, as far as I am concerned, section and I rather foolishly was interviewed by Manx a process I am going through in reporting back in Radio over the contents of this report and what had been accordance with the motion and obviously I am going to happening and it had been progressed, there could be no carry it forward and I will keep hon. members informed, doubt about it, but then when I explained all the advantages and the next stage I would hope in that reporting - back of all the grants that could be obtained I came into some process will be when I come to this hon. Court in October rather deep water because when people started ringing the with one or more updated versions of the housing department, of course the grants were not available. Now, improvement schemes, the three or four schemes that are this is the danger of any report that has been produced. We presently in place. So certainly I can assure the hon. all know about the gentrification of Douglas, we all want member that this is just the starting point and we will keep urban regeneration, we all know that we need to confine him informed. this section and get the people back into Douglas, but if I am disappointed that he should say that the feel he we are going to concentrate on doing that we must be doing gets from this report is that we are just going with the flow. more than just lip-service. If we get all these grants into I would think that if one was to read this report in an one little pocket and then we find at the end of the day unbiased fashion it is the very opposite. Indeed in the six there is no money for it we are just going through the lip- months I have been over there I do not think I could be service that we have given to the 1992 DHSS. I do not accused of going with the flow, I have gone against the want to go back onto that but that is the problem we can flow, (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) and I do not regret doing arrive at. So I do not think we should be seen to be placating that at all. What I have tried to do and which I would submit the problems of the inner town areas, we must be seen to is quite the opposite of going with the flow is to try to be doing something properly about it. recognise the major issue of urban regeneration and to put I and my colleagues at the time visited Dublin and the in place a proper approach to that and a proper scheme of inner city there has been very well regenerated purely things to address that. because of European Community money and they put one So I believe there is no lack of initiative. There is man in charge of it - there was not a committee - and he certainly no lack of enthusiasm amongst myself and my just went out and bought and he regenerated the whole of political members or the staff of the department. I have the centre of Dublin. We cannot do that. had good support and I am pleased with that and there is certainly a good spirit as far as the department and the Mrs Hannan: Was his name Charles Haughey? staff are concerned in trying to carry this exercise forward. (Laughter) He has of course taken issue with the previous administration in terms of his expectations in relation to Mr Waft: At the end of the day it is down to Treasury VAT, and we have had a response to that and I do not to and if Treasury does not come across with the money that deal with that. is required to fulfil all our ambitious needs, then it is not He again is disappointed, he says, because we have not worth the paper it is written on. So, please, do give addressed the core issues. With the greatest respect to him consideration and be realistic, when you do come to I think we have done just that. We have identified the core produce reports like this, and make sure the finances are issues in this report. We have not only identified them, we available and let us not fool the public that they are when have suggested how we can do something about those core they are not. Thank you, Mr President. issues. But if in truth the hon. member has further suggestions to make, I quite often have a chat with my The President: Now, may I call on the minister to reply? hon. friend and he knows that he is very welcome to come Reply, sir. and talk to me about any of his ideas. That door is always open to him, but not too often. (Laughter) Mr Quine: Thank you, sir. I had expected perhaps a little more comment on the details and a little more Mr Brown: He might be late! comment on specific proposals. In the absence of that I think I must assume that that part of the report here which Mr Quine: I thank Mrs Cannell for her general support. starts at paragraph 25 and goes on to include 32 is generally She has in fact brought out an important point and that is supported by hon. members. I hope it is because I have the miscellaneous housing Act. We are looking at that. We endeavoured to indicate within those paragraphs the way are committed to having a fresh look at that because it has that we hope to progress this matter. I do not think I am come up in two different directions where, as I intimated wrong in assuming that but, anyway, when we get down yesterday, in the context of housing associations and the to looking at the specifics, no doubt we will have further possible arrangements we can come to with housing consultation with members and we can refine some of these associations or, if you wish, private public schemes to ideas. develop housing, it could be that we need to make some If I could now just try and deal with some of the changes to that Act to accommodate that approach. So we comments of hon. members, first of all the hon. member are having a look at that and certainly we will take this for Onchan, Mr Karran, said could I confirm that this is an point on board while we are looking at that. interim report. I think that is very clear from the paragraph Like Mrs Cannell and indeed the hon. member for 3 of this report. We have said quite clearly indeed I have Castletown, Mr Brown, I also think there is great merit in

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the living above the shop approach and we will do to placate anybody. It is not in the nature of me to placate everything we can to push that forward. anybody. I am seeking to address particular problems and I can assure Mrs Cannell that we have not put option 1 I am seeking to confront those problems. I believe we can aside. We have not put any of the VAT options aside other do that if we get the support from this hon. Court. I beg to than in this context. I have said in this report that because move, sir. of the timeframe I have put them aside in relation to what I can do between now and October in bringing forward The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution amended schemes because quite clearly the lead time for set out at item 29 on the order paper. Will those in favour finding a solution through VAT takes a considerably longer please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes time than that, but I have also said in this report that we have it. will be looking at VAT in a very serious fashion when we come to devising schemes for urban regeneration, and that is where I think there may well be a need to fall back on STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE the arrangement whereby, under category I think it is 9 or — FIRST REPORT RECEIVED 10 under the agreement, we can come up with a particular scheme, a social-based exercise and perhaps go for some The President: Item 30, the hon. member for Rushen, concession under that heading. Sir Miles Walker. Mr Gilbey, of course, I thank for correcting the position in regard to the previous discussion concerning the VAT Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, I beg to move: Bill and the fact that the promise given by the previous Minister for the Treasury has in fact been honoured. That the First Report of the Standing Orders The hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown - I agree Committee of Tynwald 1996/97 be received. with him that it is a very important debate and I would just wish to assure him there is no lack of commitment on my This resolution allows consideration of a report of the part, as I have said before, no lack of commitment whatever. Standing Orders Committee which follows a letter which But I have found it an education in the last two days and the committee received from the hon. member for Glenfaba just sometimes these things come all at one time, but I inviting us to consider the standing orders regulating seem to be getting advised frequently over the last two questions on statements made in the Court by members days, by previous office-holders, as to what should have acting in a governmental capacity. been done. (Mr Downie: Hear, hear.) It is just perhaps the In standing order 2.2 paragraph (4) it provides for such way that these motions have come together on this statements to be part of the business of the Court in the particular occasion. sense that such business may be set out on the order paper which itself is issued under the authority of the President Mr Brown: There was no problem when I was there: I of Tynwald. got the money. Standing order 3.5 paragraph (5) unambiguously provides for untabled questions to be asked on such a Mr Quine: Had you got the money I would not be here statement. However, as we point out in our report, this now, I suppose, standing? (Mr Brown interjecting) standing order, no doubt in common with many of our Now, the next matter on this of course he quite rightly standing orders, must be read in the context of the whole says that the ball we have to keep our eyes on is property of the standing orders. We therefore observe that the and the improvement to property. That point is taken. presiding officer, whilst protecting the rights of members, There is no difficulty in taking that point at all. It is fully has an inherent responsibility to progress business before accepted. the Court and would exercise discretion about the length The government mortgage scheme - the point he has of time permitted for untabled questions on statements. made of course is a point which is already in the report Secondly, such questions must comply with the general and that is that we do need to look afresh at the government rules in standing orders as to the framing of questions. So, mortgage scheme, the levels of support and the form in for example, such a question could not refer to any matter which that support is given. which was sub judice. Similarly, the member to whom such I thank Mr Cretney for his support; it is very much appreciated. a question is posed may decline to ask the question as being I thank the hon. minister for clarifying certain matters contrary to the public interest. concerning VAT. He again has reiterated what I have said So on the basis of that analysis we set out a conclusion in the report. The bottom line is going to be resources. It in paragraph 3 of our report about the asking of untabled will involve extra expenditure. It will be up to this hon. questions on statements which are within standing orders. Court ultimately to decide the priority that they attach to I therefore beg to move the motion standing in my name. the competing demands for that expenditure. I believe that this matter of urban regeneration should have a very high The Speaker: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve priority attached to it, and I hope other members agree my remarks. with me. I thank Mr Waft for his contribution. I assure him in the The President: Does any hon. member wish to speak efforts that we are putting into this they are not designed to the resolution? If not, I will put the resolution standing

Standing Orders Committee — First Report Received T636 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 at item 30 on the order paper. Will those in favour please of Keys and Tynwald and a 52-mile circuit which embraced say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. most of the usable roads in the Isle of Man and went from Douglas to Port Erin past Jurby, St Jude's, Ramsey and then over the mountain to Hillberry was used for this PROCEDURAL purpose. The following year the Auto Cycle Club, the forerunner of the ACU, decided to send a team to the 1905 cup races The President: Now, hon. members, I think it might be and sought permission from the Manx Government to use helpful if we were to have a little light refreshment at this a closed-road circuit at St John's specifically for the stage. There are three items on the agenda paper and I hope motorcycle trials. The circuit covered 15.8 miles. The start my thoughts go along with yours in that I would hope to see and finish were at the fairfield at St John's. these all dealt with this evening (Members: Hear, hear.) At the Auto Cycle Club dinner in January 1907 the without in any way impeding anyone's contribution to the prospects of staging a full-blown racing event for touring debates. With that sort of objective in mind the Court will motorcycles on closed roads was discussed. The first now take a break until quarter to five by the Court clock and organisers were the Collier brothers and a famous we will resume with a view to concluding later this evening. motorcyclist, Freddie Straight, who was the first secretary of the Autocycle Club, and the English-based Marquis de Mr Cretney: The Southern Hundred starts at six! Mouzilly St Mars, who promised to provide a trophy should permission be given to hold the event from the Manx The Court adjourned at 4.25 p.m. authorities who were by then known to be very flexible. The course at St John's was approved and would be lapped 10 times by competitors covering a distance of 158 TT RACES MUSEUM — ESTABLISHMENT - miles. Riders would make a compulsory 10-minute rest SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED stop after completing five laps. Riders were to be dispatched in pairs at one minute intervals. True to his word The President: Hon. members, we resume our the Marquis de Mouzilly St Mars provided this trophy consideration of the order paper at item 31. I call upon the which was a copy of the Montague Trophy used for the hon. Mr Downie. TT car races and featured Mercury, the God of speed, on a winged wheel. There were also cash awards: £25 for the Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: first prize; £15 for a second prize and £10 for a third prize. The race was staged on 28th May 1907 and attracted 25 That the Council of Ministers appoint a committee starters. Thus the Tourist Trophy races were finally born, of five persons with specialist knowledge to investigate giving the Isle of Man a magnificent historic link as the the practicalities of establishing an Isle of Man TT races cradle of organised motor sport: the perfect subject for and associated memorabilia museum and report on its interpretation into a full centre and museum containing recommendations by December 1997. machines and associated memorabilia. The approach to the concept, hon. members - the TT Hon. members, as most of you are aware, it is some 90 races, as I am sure you will all agree, in the Isle of Man are years ago that the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy races were a dramatic part of its heritage. The TT provides an first run as racing competitions for motor cars and international attraction with a massive earning revenue motorcycles. It really happened this way. Public prejudice potential for the whole community. In 10 years' time the and police prosecution in England, Wales and Scotland, 'IT will celebrate its centenary. A large collection of unique allied to a complicated legal system of legislation which TT artifacts and displayable material already exists in the decreed that it would never be possible to close public Isle of Man and in other places and I have circulated roads for the express purpose of staging a race on them, information on a museum which a former TT winner and frustrated the early British pioneer motor car and world trials champion, Sammy Miller, is establishing at motorcycle manufacturers and owners alike. They were the moment. He obviously has great interest in the historic denied the obvious benefits of long periods of maximum side of racing and all these things are getting much harder speed on road conditions, a facility enjoyed by their to find and becoming more and more scarce. So it is continental contemporaries. important that we get on and we try and progress this The first Red Flag Act emancipated in 1896 had particular issue. enforced a man with a red flag to walk in front of a Now, as far as I am concerned these factors provide the motorised vehicle. Then there was the 12 mile-an-hour justification for a study to evaluate the potential for a new speed limit, which in itself repealed the Motor Act of 1903, TT interpretive presentation and really that it was I would following which a new maximum 20 mile-an-hour speed like the five appointed persons to do. What we need to do, limit was introduced in all English roads. in finding these people, is we need to find people who In 1904 the then Governor of the Isle of Man, Lord have professional expertise and this has to be represented Raglan, himself a keen motorist, invited the Royal in the membership of the committee who are going to study Automobile Club to stage trials for the Gordon Bennett the subject. They need to look at the creation of a high- Cup car races on a closed-road course in the Isle of Man. quality museum and interpretive centre, which nowadays To make this possible a Bill was rushed through the House is a matter involving considerable skills and expertise.

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Without doubt the great success of the recent House of people of the Island by emphasising associated all-year- Manannan development at Peel has shown not how easy round facilities, themed and linked to the formal Ti' but actually how difficult such a project can be to properly presentation. evaluate, implement and control on behalf of the taxpayer. It is also important that we involve the local community At the House of Manannan every penny of value has been as much as possible, we look at borrowing from them their extracted for the taxpayer's investment but this could not sources of expertise as well as the many objects which are have been achieved if our own on-Island professionals in available throughout the Island and I know of several the heritage development business were not in detailed collections which could possibly be housed in any such control of every aspect of the project. It is essential museum. therefore that if we are to provide a new interpretive facility Any architectural involvement in the project should about the importance of the TT, it maximises all the skills represent a clear statement of the future of the TT and try and abilities and controls which we have available on the and link it in some way with its unique historic links and Island and that any outside consultancies are filtered there there are massive opportunities for the private sector through a very strong controlling influence within the to be involved in any sort of scheme that we put together. Island itself, thereby ensuring that the local taxpayer and This should not be a static display of motorcycles, it the local dimension of the community's involvement with should be full of sound, movement and the people who the TT is always at the fore throughout all aspects of the have contributed to make the IT races what they are. It project. should combine the best of a unique portrayal of a part of Now, the need for a specialist committee, as we have the Island's social history with the best of a hands-on seen with recent developments in the Island, to provide a science centre of the type which attracts crowds of visitors new facility of this kind which will meet the expectations elsewhere. It should involve the community both within of modern visitors is not cheap. Despite the obvious initial and outside normal opening hours and it should bring to attractions of a TT museum concept, the idea should be life the whole TT experience for visitors who may have subject to exactly the same rigorous initial analysis as the not even seen it, for others who have a detailed knowledge heritage centre, so that we can be absolutely sure that any but who can explore areas of the TT phenomenon which proposals which are eventually brought forward will have would not otherwise be available to them. the best interests of the Isle of Man community at heart I would envisage the committee investigating and not be a product or indulgence of some slick outside manufacturers' halls and areas where you can trace the consultancy. story of, say, a Norton, Honda et cetera. There is an obvious As with the recent feasibility study for the House of whole range of opportunities for corporate sponsorship, Manannan, wide consultation will be needed with other hospitality facilities, possibly assisted by the large sources of expertise within government such as the manufacturers but generally available to the community, economic adviser, Department of Tourism and also with and I think this would generate a huge revenue both for the crucial non-government bodies which have sustained the government and enable us to have a presence in the the TT over all these years. Representatives of all these area of the museum for at least 52 weeks a year. bodies and potential sponsors should have access. Private Some of these museums in other places now have what sector investors, as well as a host of other people, will is called manufacturers' day events where team riders and need to become involved, including areas of corporate mechanics come along and launch a new product from entertainment, exhibitions, beverage refreshment there, this is picked up by the media and it is another promotions, which will enable the centre to viably operate excellent way of promoting what we have got to do on the for 52 weeks a year. Isle of Man and our tremendous history. If we are to fully capitalise on the potential of this I am not limiting this particular museum to the Douglas proposal, it is essential that we move quickly and, as I said area, I am hoping this committee should look at the Island earlier, our competitors are already moving into the field Island-wide and perhaps look at putting it in an area where of the lucrative history of motor racing, so if we want the it will serve the community. items that are important to the Isle of Man, we have got to Other things I was mulling round in my head were a put our marker down and go and see if we can get them. road racing school, perhaps involving Steve Hislop, Selwyn Now, next year sees the fiftieth year of Honda's Griffiths, both Island residents now; craft demonstrations, association with the TT and it will be important that we making leathers, helmets; hands-on activities relating to are able to discuss our considered proposals with them at technology, like 'How does an engine work?', 'Compare an early stage to ensure that a full synergy of public and Joey Dunlop's speed with that of a cheetah, a bird.' Items private support will be available for any proposed in the museum could also be linked to the national schools' development. It is therefore crucial that the committee is curriculum so that we could have a real good wide-ranging set up and provided with a suitable feasibility study budget centre. There should be a sports bar, a hall of trophies and by the Council of Ministers as quickly as possible. replicas. People can donate to the museum and they will Now, as far as I am concerned, the brief for the new know that because it is government-backed and falls under development should incorporate not only the objects and our control the items they leave with us are in very good ephemera of the TT but also the evocative human stories hands: a similar sort of arrangement that the Manx Museum which are the lifeblood of the special credentials of the and National Trust was formed for. There should be a TT. Audiovisual portraits would therefore be a key element. facility to call up on video screen all known film archives We should emphasise the best possible benefit for the of the TT. We cannot do this at the moment. You could call

Ti' Races Museum — Establishment — Select Committee Appointed T638 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 up by make of bike, rider, date. There is a technique used broken dreams of the riders, but most of all, the fine in the Olympic Games Museum in Switzerland where you achievements of the many people who have supported the can actually do this. There is a whole range of things that Isle of Man and its unique races. the museum could cope with, including an area which deals I am very happy to second the motion and thank Mr with the TT fringe involving rock bands, the Ramsey sprint Downie for wishing to progress the plan. If this motion is and all sorts of other areas. successful, I would be prepared to serve in any committee, I am sure, hon. members, that this is the right time to sub-committee, or to help in any way. get this moving. I know it has been talked about for a The TT came about because the government of the day number of years and I sincerely hope that it will get the were able to quickly introduce legislation to close roads support of the Council of Ministers and we can go forward so that racing could carry on on public roads. Let us, 90 and put a good feasibility study together and then we can years later, bring to fruition a project which would be a move on with the scheme. Mr President, I beg to move the permanent tribute to the TT and MGP. motion standing in my name. Hon. members, I commend this proposal to you and trust that you will give it your full support. Thank you. Mr Crowe: Mr President, we describe the Isle of Man as the road racing capital of the world and yet the only The Speaker: Mr President, as far as I am concerned, permanent display of motorcycling that we have in the very briefly, can I just say that I think the hon. mover of Island is a private venture on the side of Snaefell. With a the resolution in front of us this afternoon showed in fact bit of effort we could create an exhibition centre and a hall that he had an element of spirit, he was prepared to have a of fame which would display to the world the great go. There is some drive and enthusiasm there. Whether it achievements of men and women and machines that have is achievable, who knows? The idea was put abroad that it raced on this Island since 1907. has to be in control and yet at the same time we should Having been born and bred on the Island and lived on link into it manufacturers and the private industry. the TT course for much of my life, I have always enjoyed Providing that can be done, I see no reason at all why we the TT and the MGP races and place credit on the riders, should not go ahead. the organisers and the associated industries that make up the TT and MGP and this includes the motorcycle Mr Cretney: Mr President, all I would like to say today manufacturers, the pit crews, the sponsors, the supporters: is, as far as the department for which I have some the whole experience that makes the TI' and MGP the responsibility is concerned, it is no secret that for some vibrant and unique event it is. time now the department has wished to see some I thought that an exhibition centre was a practical and development of this nature and I welcome the impetus, sensible project in 1991 and I still think it is realistic. I which will no doubt be added to our thoughts by today's raised it again at the May sitting of Tynwald in 1996 and I resolution. was assured at that time that it would receive serious I know that the hon. member for North Douglas and consideration by the then Tourism Minister and yet one others do believe that the history and the significance of year later there are, as far as I am aware, no plans or even the TT races should be recognised in a permanent form. I a statement of intent for such a project. I did state last year do believe that the vast majority of members of this hon. that I would be very happy to assist with any project team Court will agree with that. I do believe co-operation will to consider the feasibility of the project. be possible with the private sector, both in the development I have stated before, and I will say it again, that we of any proposals and if and when any proposals are have an opportunity, if this project does go ahead, to create formalised in terms of arrangements with manufacturers a lasting tribute to everyone who has participated in the to assist in the putting on and the proper celebration and TI' and MGP races. We could, if enough commitment and demonstration of such a museum. effort are shown, make this a millennium project of which I welcome the initiative of the hon. member for West we would all be proud. Douglas, Mr Downie, in having the resolution down today There is of course the cost to consider but I am sure and I do hope all members will support it. that a permanent exhibition centre would very quickly pay its way and make a lasting return on the capital invested in Mr Barton: Mr President, in supporting this resolution, such a project. I believe that we could arrange the finances in such a way that private enterprise would be pleased to can I just make a couple of comments? I think I would be participate. a bit uneasy about having it behind the Grandstand because On the location of a T1' hall of fame, I would favour the that is an area that is occupied a major part of the year, but rear of the Grandstand in Douglas, not just because it is in if you cast your minds back and Mr Speaker just reminded the North Douglas constituency, but I believe it is the best me of this when he talked about involving manufacturers location. I am fortunate to live within a stone's throw of and the private sector. If you remember, many years ago the Grandstand and occasionally when I walk past I meet Geoff Duke came forward with the idea of the Round Table racing enthusiasts, even in the winter months, who come circuit or site and that is probably an area that might want and sit and look at the Grandstand and the scoreboard, but revisiting again or considering because that would have they say they would like to see much more. quite a wide potential. Not only would it be clear of the A TT and MGP exhibition centre would provide an all- circuit itself so you could visit but it could also be used in year-round commemoration of the hopes, desires, even the other ways.

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Mr Duggan: Mr President, I also support the resolution The President: Hon. members, I will now put the before the Court. Talking about the Grandstand, it is a very resolution set out at item 31 on the order paper. Will those congested area already. Possibly we could utilise, or in favour of that resolution please say aye; against, no. possibly they could look at, the committee, the The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Summerland building, the new sports centre up in our area now and the swimming pool; there may be an area over there which could be looked at in Summerland. MURRAY'S MOTORCYCLE MUSEUM - TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP OF LAND - Mr Quine: The Marine Drive. AMENDED MOTION CARRIED

The President: The mover to reply. The President: Item 32, again the hon. Mr Downie.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President, hon. members. Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: I would just like to think Mr Crowe for his support. I know that, although not a rider, his heart is in the right place. He That such steps as are necessary be taken to transfer is a confirmed biker and a motorcycle enthusiast and I ownership of that parcel of land on Snaefell with the group welcome him seconding the motion. of buildings thereon currently occupied by Murray's Mr Speaker, I would envisage that if the feasibility goes Motorcycle Museum from the Department of Agriculture, ahead there will have to be a general discussion involving Fisheries and Forestry to the properties division of the manufacturers and the private sector and this is why it is Department of Local Government and the Environment vitally important that when the Council of Ministers forthwith. consider who they are going to invite to come onto the committee, they also earmark some funding to enable the The motion before the members today I felt I had to feasibility study to be carried out and I think, off the top of move because at last month's meeting of this Court I got my head, the feasibility study that was carried out for Peel the clear impression from the Minister for Agriculture, heritage centre was a figure approaching £300,000. Now, Fisheries and Forestry that the future of the buildings at I am not suggesting that the Council of Ministers be finding the foot of Snaefell currently occupied by Mr Murray as a that sort of money but there is a cost involved and that is motorcycle museum were under some threat and the why I have put the resolution down for the Council of minister did go on at some length to advise the Court that Ministers and the ball is in their Court. If they want to it was her department's policy to demolish these buildings progress it, they have got to find the money and they have and restore the foot of Snaefell at some stage to its former got to do it properly. glory. Mr Cretney - I am very grateful for his support. I know Now, I must point out at this particular point the main that his heart is in this and he also, like myself, sees this as object of the motion that I have in front of you today is to a major opportunity to give the TI' a boost. We take out perhaps preserve those buildings for an interim period to massive sums of money every year, but in fairness, hon. perhaps give the idea of the motorcycle museum a chance members, we put very, very little back and should an to get progressed and who knows what we may finish up unfortunate circumstance arise in the future so that we did with in a few years' time? at some stage lose the TT or it lost its status altogether, if Now, what does sadden me, and I will just give you a the museum was built, at least we would have a marvellous little bit of the background history to this. The original building there, brimming full of history and the fantastic buildings were constructed by the Air Ministry and opened stories of the men and machines that made it all possible. in 1951. They are extremely well built. In fact they are So I thank Mr Cretney. built to strict ministry standards, the brickwork is in Mr Barton raised a comment about having it behind the excellent condition, there is no sign of slippage or any other Grandstand. Now, he is uneasy about it. I am sure that problems like that. The only problem there was with the when the committee sits, this will be one of the areas that building over the years was that there has always been a they will look at. As far as I am concerned, I think it has to little bit of a problem with the roof and to that effect the be given a lot of thought and I would be quite willing to, Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry a few for the sake of bringing some increased revenue potential years ago spent some money repairing the roof. I to other areas of the Island outside of Douglas, consider it understand a lot of this was met by an insurance company, going somewhere else. Who knows? This is what we have following some winter damage when the weight of the got to try and do. If we are going to have this museum, it snow did some long-term damage to the roof. That sum of has got to be put to use for the maximum benefit of the money that was spent was somewhere in the region of people of the Island and I will leave that one open if I can. £30,000. The insurance company agreed to pay for the Mr Duggan said the Grandstand was congested already. replacement of the roof covering and DAFF found some I tend to agree with him, but we have got to let the money out of the insurance access. Now, I understand that committee have a look at it and hopefully if members vote the amount paid was £33,126. for this today, we will see perhaps an interim report and Now, in 1991 the fire services also carried out an some recommendations coming forward quite soon. inspection of that building and at the cost of government So, Mr President, hon. members, I beg to move the fire doors and a fire alarm system were installed in the motion standing in my name. building. Those works cost almost £3,000.

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There was additional work carried out in 1992 by years ago and learned his trade as a bricklayer, actually Woolman's when they did extra electrical work within the worked on that building and I remember him telling me at building. the time that money was no object, it was built to last a Now, since then, Mr Murray has painted the building great many years and it was purely built as an early warning externally, that is, the tenant. He has had security alarms system or a communications system and unfortunately by fitted with a special dial-out facility, the access drive has the time the equipment was ready it had become obsolete, also been coated with road chippings and the surrounding so we ended up with an empty building on the side of area has been brought up to quite a good standard. Now, Snaefell. the main part of the building now is in good condition. It Now, Mr Murray has been there for some years and I is sound. One or two of the store buildings on the outdoor think we ought to give him some security of tenure and still need to have a little bit of work done to them. give him some encouragement and if the Department of Now, you might well at this point ask why I want to see Agriculture are unable to see the benefit, then it should be the buildings transferred to the Department of Local transferred to another department who will see the value Government and the Environment. Now, since 1987 all of of it. Now, whether it is again the Department of Local the works carried out on this building have been done under Government or the Department of Tourism, either one the supervision of the Department of Local Government might have a better feeling for the responsibilities they and the Environment. All the drawings appertaining to the have. building, the wiring plans and all the bits and pieces Now, just to recap, I would say the facts speak for appertaining to the building's well-being and long-term themselves. On the side of Snaefell there is a well- maintenance are actually with the Department of Local established motorcycle museum which is a notable tourist Government and the Environment. The only thing that the attraction. The Department of Agriculture do not appear department were not responsible for was the lease and the to see the economic benefit of such a museum but instead leasing arrangements which are between DAFF and the want to demolish it. I intend to support the motion because present leaseholder, Mr Murray. it is quite clear there is an economic benefit in having the Now, I could not care less, really, who looks after the building occupied and whether it is owned by the building as long as it is being looked after in a proper Department of Local Government or the Department of manner. If an argument is made here today that it should Tourism is immaterial, as long as the building stays there. go to Tourism, well, let it be, but I want to make sure that Thank you. that building is retained, the extremely valuable collection in there is given some sort of security of a decent lease, so Mr Kniveton: Mr President, now, to some extent I can we have two or three years to perhaps sort other things go along with the motion from Mr Downie, the hon. out. member for Douglas West, although in my opinion he has I feel that as DoLGE have had so much involvement not gone far enough. I believe he is quite right in his attempt with the building, they are the property management arm to remove the property from the Department of Agriculture, of government, I feel that DoLGE should be the people Fisheries and Forestry but not by coincidence, presumably, who we have the building transferred to and then Kevin to his own property division of DoLGE. Barber can go and see the existing tenant and come to some It is correct that the property in its present use is really negotiation about a lease. And that really, hon. members, of no interest to the Department of Agriculture. I can is why I wish to move this motion standing in my name. understand the position where the hon. Mrs Hannan, as Thank you. the minister of DAFF, is not interested in a tourist attraction such as this one and particularly as she indicated only a Mr Crowe: I second the motion, Mr President. I must month ago she is only prepared to grant a one-year lease admit that I have known about Murray's Motorcycle extension to Murray's museum, but that is not good enough. Museum for many years and I have driven past there and I However, whether we like it or not, these old buildings feel quite ashamed that I had never ever been in the museum are now really part of our TT heritage. They house one of but I did make a point over the weekend to go and visit the the Island's greatest IT and MGP attractions and I for one museum and I was pleasantly surprised at the exhibits that would not like to see these buildings with what they contain are contained in the museum and I would only contrast just simply disappear, without putting up a fight for their what Mr Murray has there with what we have built in Peel. retention. The motorcycle museum is run on a shoestring and yet It may be that following the previous subject on our contains such brilliant exhibits and mementos that any agenda we might some year have a motorcycle enthusiast would be able to spend hours there and for memorabilia museum somewhere on the Island, but first anybody who has not visited the museum, I would of all we have to find the site and then the money and then recommend that you do so. of course all the goods, where there will be parking and But as for suggesting that the building be knocked down, the approval of this Court. But then of course we might I would disagree, especially as there have been not have a new museum or it may be many years away. improvements to the building and the surrounding area I need not remind members who were in the last over the last few years and Mr Downie has referred to government but for the newer members, can I tell them these improvements. that some three years ago when Mr John Corrin was the I have a personal connection with this building in that minister of DAFF his department was uprating the Wildlife my brother, who worked for Parkinson's Limited many Park. We all remember the days of Orry the sea lion. Well,

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in short, a motion came forward that the Wildlife Park, department had a three-year lease on this property which because of the apparent lack of interest by DAFF, was not expired on 11th May. A further one-year lease on the same doing well and the ownership was passed to the Department terms and conditions was offered by way of letter on 8th of Tourism. There was an immediate resurgence of interest May 1997. I am pleased to report that Mr Murray has now in the park, and without being critical of Mr Corrin and accepted the one-year extension offered. However, this can DAFF, the reason the Wildlife Park got into that situation only be regarded as an interim solution. A way forward was because that department was not interested in operating for this fine collection of historic motorcycles, which what is really a summer holiday attraction. without doubt has value and significance for the Island's Mr President, to quote a pun, 'The precedent has been tourist industry, needs to be appraised. set.' I am quite confident that the same thing should happen Following the June sitting of Tynwald, at which time a to this building on the mountain. It needs an injection of number of hon. members including myself stressed this interest. It needs some enthusiasm and attention from point, the matter was discussed at a meeting of the Council someone who knows what it is all about and that person of of Ministers on 19th June 1997. At this meeting the Council course I believe is the hon. Mr Cretney, the Minister for of Ministers agreed that the Department of Agriculture, Tourism, who himself was a motorcycle racer in days gone Fisheries and Forestry and the Department of Tourism and by. And so I have put to you my amendment and if it is Leisure should meet to determine a way forward. accepted I believe it will ensure that the museum, which I am pleased to report that I have now met with Mrs incidentally we have just been told had virtually a new Hannan and her department members on the subject and roof put on three years ago, can carry on. we are to meet again. It could well be that the two Another difference between my amendment and the departments who have already met could also meet with motion by Mr Downie is that he does not express in his the Department of Local Government and the Environment motion any intention for the future use of the building. I to seek their views. know he has mentioned it but it is not within his motion. With regard to the current situation, I confirm that the The motor museum is established and I doubt if any other collection is recognised as historic and significant and that change of use would be approved if applied for. Our a further one-year lease has been agreed. The two visitors, especially the Germans, know all about it and, as departments immediately affected, the Department of I say, Mr Downie does not acknowledge the future of the Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry as landlord of the building within the motion, the building itself of course building on Snaefell and the Department of Tourism and being a genuine tourist attraction with the MER line nearby, Leisure with its obvious interest, have met and agreed to coaches visiting on their tours around the TT course and meet again. Furthermore, Tynwald has agreed that the so on. So my amendment would therefore take the building Council of Ministers should appoint a five-person and the land from DAFF to the Department of Tourism committee with specialist knowledge to look into the and so secure its future as a museum. practicalities of establishing an Isle of Man TT races and That, sir, is my amendment which I present to you: associated memorabilia museum and to report back by December 1997. Bearing this in mind, I consider it (a) For 'That' substitute 'Tynwald is of the opinion (1) premature to determine that the building on Snaefell that' housing the collection should be transferred to another government department until such time as the investigation (b) for 'properties division of the Department of Local called for in item 31 has been completed and there is by Government and the Environment substitute way of comfort in the short term a legal agreement between 'Department of Tourism and Leisure'; and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and Mr Murray. (c) at the end add I am pleased to say that when Mrs Hannan and I meet with Mr Murray on Monday next to view his collection, '(2) that upon ownership being transferred, the which I have done several times in the past and I know Department of Tourism and Leisure should - others have, to discuss his views on the future with him, the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, and her (a) refurbish and maintain the buildings, and departmental colleagues have agreed to recommend a longer term of lease. This would certainly be very helpful (b) make strenuous efforts to facilitate their continued if we are able to make progress on the objective which is use as a motorcycle museum.' shared by many people within and without this hon. Court of a TT experience and museum being established to Mr Singer: I beg to second, Mr President. recognise our world-famous and much-loved event with all its characters and machines over the years. There can Mr Cretney: Mr President, during Question Time at be no doubt that there could, given good will on both sides, the June sitting of this hon. Court the subject of Murray's be some co-operation to the benefit of the Island on such Motorcycle Museum and its relationship with the an initiative. Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry was I consider the current action being taken by the two raised by the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan. My departments and perhaps other interested parties is colleague the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and appropriate and will enable matters to be concluded Forestry indicated in her response that as landlord her satisfactorily by the November 1997 sitting of Tynwald in

Murray's Motorcycle Museum — Transfer of Ownership of Land — Amended Motion Carried T642 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 relation to current concerns about the building on Snaefell. roof covered with felt. It is not a satisfactory building; it Mr President, I have had an amendment prepared which suffers, like the inside of every concrete building, from has been circulated to hon. members and the amendment the sweating that occurs. Mr Murray has, to his credit, would read: installed a heating system to combat this very difficulty, which has enormously improved the interior atmosphere Delete all the words after "That", substitute of the building to preserve the motorcycles and exhibits which he has there. `Tynwald notes the action being taken by the Certainly today planning permission would never be Department of Tourism and Leisure and the granted for that building in that place. It is an eyesore, in Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry truth, on Snaefell. It should not exist amongst all the beauty to determine the future of the building on Snaefell of that scenery, on that hillside, it really desecrates it, and currently occupied by Murray's Motorcycle Museum to suggest that it should be permanent I think would be a and requests that the Council of Ministers reports disgraceful notion for the Isle of Man to adopt. to the November 1997 sitting of Tynwald with its On the other hand this Department of Agriculture, as I conclusions and recommendations.' said, have no wish whatever to incommode Mr Murray to the extent he would have to get rid of his museum I do hope, given the goodwill which has been straightaway. It is proposed that he should have a lease demonstrated today and following meetings and noting the after the termination of the one-year period, say for five or concern of members of Tynwald, that members will be seven years, and that during that time we would hope that satisfied and will support this amendment. progress could be made to enable the museum to be established in another place, and whether it was under Mr Mr Luft: Mr President, from the orations of the hon. Murray's dominion or whether it might be under the trust, member for West Douglas in our January sitting of this so be it. A trust, I think, as envisaged by the hon. member for West Douglas, is the ideal solution, of course. That hon. Court I had understood he was a devoted would be excellent. conservationist with a particular interest in preserving the As a business, the building is not really accessible at hills of Mann. I do not believe for one moment that the certain times of the year or at least it is very difficult to hon. member really thinks that he should transfer this access. From the point of view of staffing or supplying isolated plot of land on our only mountain to the goods there, there are great difficulties. Mr Murray, who Department of Local Government and the Environment. had a very friendly discussion with us at the museum before If it was with the object of preserving for ever this building he met us in the divisional meeting, explained the there, then I would be even more surprised. That is not the difficulties he was in. At times you cannot get to it to proper approach. execute any inspections as to vandalism having occurred Whilst I entirely approve of the motion he put or repairs to the building and altogether it is not a suitable immediately before this one and which was passed building, so why should it be preserved? As one hon. unanimously, this is not the place for a motorcycle museum. member has properly said, it is very doubtful if planning The point is that for 28 years the Department of Agriculture permission would be granted for any other use of that have preserved it for its present purpose and let me say building. It has got an established use now, true, and it is straightaway there is no comparison between the Wildlife hoped that between the Department of Tourism, the Park and this particular plot and this building, as suggested Department of Local Government and the Environment by the hon. member, Mr Kniveton. and the Council of Ministers a scheme will eventually be I would emphasise first of all that the department and the propounded for a site and building which would suit the forestry and amenities division of that department, of which museum, provide perhaps extra space. I think if a bigger I am chairman, have any wish that the motorcycle museum building were provided, we would have many people should cease to exist. It is undoubtedly an asset to the coming forward with offers to enhance and increase that heritage of motorcycling and the Tourist Trophy races in museum. The competitors, I think, as has been indicated, this Island. still flock there in the summer, but Mr Downie said it has Credit must be given, I feel, to Mr Murray and his father got to be at least 52 weeks in the year. I do not know if you for establishing this collection. (Several Members: Hear, can press any more weeks in the year (Laughter) but - hear.) I had the pleasure of looking round it at the invitation of Mr Murray, with the whole of my divisional committee, Mr Brown: Oh, Alex will! some few weeks ago and it is a remarkable collection and one which I hope will in some way be added to the Mr Luft: - the point is that that building is not suitable permanent museum which is in the vision of the hon. for 52 weeks in the year, it is only suitable for the summer. member for West Douglas. That is the only time it can be really open and as for the It is not, however, an appropriate place or an appropriate amenities which might help it to pay its way, he carries on building for this collection and the collection in truth could catering. He can open for catering for one fortnight in the of course be much better displayed if some funds were year, when the TT is on. Otherwise it is not worthwhile. made available in a suitable place. And he has made a tearoom there which is open for one When built, it was intended, I believe, as a temporary fortnight in the year and that is all he can manage. I imagine building and some few years ago, as the members have he can provide cups of tea and coffee perhaps at other times indicated, the roof was severely damaged. It is a concrete but not what he had intended originally.

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The problem will not be solved, the problem of that police have concerns about that, because of the bikes trying building on this mountainside will not be solved by the to turn in to the motorcycle museum whilst bikers are passing of this motion and I do commend the amendment coming round the course, especially on Mad Sunday at which has been proposed by the hon. Mr Cretney, the some speed. But that is really something for the future, minister. I think it has been seconded - how we deal with that. But what we should do certainly and I understand from A Member: No. what the mover of the amendment, Mr Cretney, has said is that in fact their discussion has progressed with the Mr Luft: Well, I have very great pleasure in seconding department to now say, 'Okay, we'll give some certainty that motion, Mr President. That would be the ideal solution. to it', and that, I think, is what the Court was looking for Let us go into the matter on a proper basis, let us not hastily and I think the concern came from the questions in the last say, 'This building must be transferred either to the Tourism sitting because that did not seem to be the case. Department or the Local Government Department.' That I believe quite clearly the point made by the Minister would not help in the least. We look after the mountains, for Agriculture in terms that it is their objective, their policy, we are the conservation authority and we have the expertise to clear that building off the mountain is one we should be to do that. Please let us continue and keep the hills of the happy to support, but I think it is the timing of when that Isle of Man as well as they are now. Meanwhile I think happens that is the matter that is paramount to us all and I that the best interests of the Island will be served if we think as long as there is a clear understanding by us all as pass the amendment to this resolution and may the museum to what it is they wish to achieve, what it is in the interim and its projects long continue. we hope to gain and whether or not in the future we have a motorcycle museum in the Isle of Man which is owned Mr Brown: Mr President, I have not got a lot to say on partly or wholly by government or wholly by private this but I just think it is worth making the point I think we enterprise, as was suggested in the previous motion, then all recognise the sensitivity and the importance of this that is something for the future which may well affect the collection to the Isle of Man and the point that it is in private future of this museum. ownership, and I think there is no doubt without the But in the meantime I hope members will support the considerable support over the last 28 years or whatever it amendment put down by the hon. member for South is of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and so on Douglas as I do believe that is the right way forward so we and its predecessors that in fact this museum would not be can be clearly advised in November by the two departments there now, so I do not think we should forget that: over the as to how they see the best way forward for the future, and years there has been support. as I say, whether you transfer it from Agriculture to Local I think the problem is that there is concern about the Government or to Tourism in this case is somewhat uncertainty, and I have to say I do not think it even matters different, with respect to my colleague, to the Wildlife Park who owns the building. What matters is what government's because we are not asking the Department of Tourism to policy is towards the operation and nature of the operation operate it. All we want to know is which department of within that building, whilst it is acceptable to us to have government owns the building and what are the terms of a the building on the mountain, and I have to say my view is lease and quite clearly there is not a problem with that quite clear. I do not mind it being with the Minister for staying with the Department of Agriculture if the terms of Agriculture as long as there is a clear policy which is the lease are acceptable to us in what we are hoping to acceptable to us in terms that whilst this operation is achieve, so I hope members will support the amendment. ongoing and we recognise the basis of the operation, which is not ideal, as the hon. member of the Council has said, Mrs Hannan: I rise, Eaghtyrane, to support the because of its location, we should say we are content for it amendment moved by the Minister for Tourism and to stay in that department's ownership. If there is a problem Leisure. As I said in my reply during the Question Time in with conflict there, and I personally do not think there is, the June sitting of this hon. Court, I was prepared to meet then fine, we can transfer it to the Department of Tourism with the Minister for Tourism and Leisure and discuss the and Leisure but there is not a lot of sense in that unless of situation with him. This I have done. course it transferred back to the Department of Agriculture On Monday I can confirm we are meeting with Mr as soon as it was becoming vacant so you could deal with Murray on site and I can also confirm that Mr Murray has it in the way you wished to. also been a tenant of the Department of Agriculture, I believe the long-term objective clearly has to be to Fisheries and Forestry and its forerunners for 28 years. get that building off the mountain, and I do not think The department has a policy, obviously, but has never anybody disagrees with that. It is not exactly an attractive threatened to throw Mr Murray out. We are prepared to building but it is providing a purpose which is beneficial offer Mr Murray either a five-year or a seven-year lease at certainly to the person who owns the valuable motorcycles this particular time. If it was a five-year lease, it would be and of course indirectly to the Isle of Man because it for six years because he already has a lease which he has provides a facility. accepted for one year. If it was a seven-year lease, it would I know that for many, many weeks of the year in fact be longer than that. that building is not accessible and it is fair to say that It is not my department's intention to throw Mr Murray actually during part of the TT period it is not safely out. We have always supported Mr Murray in that particular accessible, or some would say, and certainly I know the building. However, the rent is £100 per annum. The

Murray's Motorcycle Museum — Transfer of Ownership of Land — Amended Motion Carried 11 T644 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 department does not have money for that building, and as the goodness in the hon. minister, in that he is an enthusiast the member who moved the resolution stated, the repair of motorcycles and he does try his best, but I have to say of the lease was insurance money and the lease that Mr that I believe that he is trying to be all things to all men • Murray has is a repairing lease. But it is purely the state of and I do not believe any minister can afford or should be that building which is not satisfactory for a museum and trying to be all things to all men. whether it would be satisfactory for anything else, I do not All this amendment does is put off any action, any know, but I have spoken to people who are concerned about protection, any security for this particular museum until the state of the building preserving these particular vehicles, November and then what will happen in November? This because I know Mr Murray has done a lot of work recently hon. Court will reconvene, we will then be told of what on trying to improve the environment that these machines the conclusions are and it will be too late in the day to do are kept in, but it is of concern that it is damp up there, the anything about it because the two ministers will have building does sweat and so it is obviously of concern to negotiated or perhaps conspired with one another as to the people who have an interest in older bikes. future. But I would not want to do anything, as I said in my reply, to threaten Mr Murray or his collection because I Mr Cretney: You get yourself back to Liverpool, girl! think his collection is quite priceless and I think it is that that we should be concerned about, working with Mr Mr Brown: Yes. Hear, hear. They are used to that down Murray to allow him to show his collection to the best of there. his ability. But I do not think that we should be in the way of trying to take over his collection in any way whatsoever. Mrs Cannell: Banter aside, I am going to concentrate But we are meeting Mr Murray on Monday and I am happy on the issue here and not be distracted. to report back to this hon. Court in November. I have no problem at all in supporting the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Onchan because I think Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I am quite astounded by it does many things. It not only secures the position for Mr the presence of the previous speaker because if we cast Murray, it gives it to the right department, the Department our minds back to just a month ago, the month of June, the of Tourism, to promote and to look after until such time as hon. minister, the previous speaker, was talking about the possibly a new motorcycle museum, as was previously building being condemned, about wanting the tenant out, discussed in the last item, comes to fruition and let us be about demolishing the building, about doing away with it honest, hon. members. During the last debate it was altogether and I remember fully that particular debate and mentioned that it would be a valuable asset and it was fully it has been recorded in Hansard and here today we have supported and went through unanimously. But it was also what appears to be a climb-down by the hon. minister, said that such a new museum site and all the facilities that one would hope to bring into that will cost time and I would Mr Duggan: A climb-down, yes. also indicate that that will also cost money and it will take time because such a thing should not be rushed. The Mr Downie: Hear, hear. planning of the House of Manannan, I can verify, took years, years, to actually plan before a presentation was Mrs Cannell: - climb-down in that she is prepared to made to hon. members in this Court. It did, it took years, offer a five-year or seven-year lease, she is prepared to and the preparation in any scheme, if it is going to be negotiate with the Minister for Tourism. But I would say successful, is most important and it will take years to this, that if there was a willingness there to negotiate in complete. Meanwhile we have a motorcycle museum, the first instance, (Mr Duggan: Hear, hear.) then members albeit where it is situated and the building that it occupies. would not be coming to this hon. Court and putting forward It is there, it has been there for 28 years, and I believe that motions for to protect this valuable motorcycle heritage we ought to protect that particular site and facility until site. It seems to be a lot of time wasted here if the hon. such time as something new comes on the horizon, until Minister for Agriculture did not mean what she said last there is a firm scheme and there is commitment of financial month and talk can on occasion be quite cheap and I am expenditure towards putting together a new scheme. quite upset that the hon. minister should come forward I do not believe that by supporting the last amendment today and say that she is prepared to negotiate et cetera. before us we will be doing that. I think we will be putting Last month at this hon. Court in June, that was the time to off a decision which I believe hon. members in this Court say that she would further reconsider her stance at that should be taking, not the decision made by the two time. ministers. Negotiation, I believe, should have happened last month, it should have happened during the Tynwald Mrs Hannan: I did. debate, it should have been indicated then that they would negotiate and see if a compromise could be met. It is a Mrs Cannell: That was the most appropriate time to delaying tactic, it is a ploy, and I would not support that. I offer reconsideration, renegotiation and meetings with the will support the one which is seeking to protect and secure Minister for Tourism, not now. This is a defensive attitude the site and of course if that fails, then I will further support here, it is a defensive mechanism. the motion as number 32 on the agenda, but I will not The amendment moved by the hon. Minister for Tourism support the motion moved by the hon. Minister for I believe is a ploy (Mr Brown: Oh!) and I fully appreciate Tourism. Thank you.

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Mr Corkill: Mr President, as hon. members can Mr Downie: What is wrong with supporting the motion obviously see, we have a motion here with two on the paper? amendments trying to push it in a particular direction. There is something that has come to mind as I have been Mr Corkill: - the motion and the amendment in the comparing these amendments side by side, that I think we name of Mr Cretney. have forgotten in this debate and that is the input that Mr Murray should have into the situation. Mr Shimmin: Mr President, I thought I was going to If one compares the amendment of the hon. member go through another day without speaking in this hon. my colleague Mr Kniveton, in part (c) in (2)(a) there it chamber, but after the comments from my colleague for says, 'refurbish and maintain the buildings'. Now, there East Douglas I was stung into making some sort of will be a cost to that, quite simply. This is a definitive response. motion. All right it says, `Tynwald is of the opinion', but I find it unfortunate that comments are made about then has anyone asked Mr Murray will he be prepared to ministers colluding together in order to try and move this pay extra rental for the newly refurbished building? He issue. I am a member of the department. I was present at may not. I do not know. But certainly as regards what suited those meetings that took place on Monday of this week. him in the past, this will actually change things. Maybe he There is no intention on behalf of my Minister for wants a status quo. This actual motion, this amendment, Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry or the Minister for will actually change that status quo. I would far rather see Tourism to try and remove Mr Murray from that facility. what has been set, and all right it is a Council of Ministers We are attempting to move it forward. It is a genuine amendment, as I heard said before. In response it is being commitment to try and safeguard Mr Murray's collection and also to try and move forward to the future. regarded as a defensive move. It is a way of trying to bring I agree entirely with the Treasury Minister's comments on board expressions from this hon. Court from a previous regarding Mr Murray's wishes. That is why the Minister sitting and certainly I, at some stage in the future, would for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and the Minister like to see that building removed from the mountain side. for Tourism are going there to discuss the matter with him. I drive over to Ramsey regularly. Sometimes you have We have also heard from my learned friend Deemster Luft visitors and they say, 'What is that?' At the end of the day that he has already visited with the division for forestry it would be nice to see it gone, but, the big `but' is of committee. Discussions have taken place. There is no course we do not want to disturb anyone. We do not want attempt to threaten the safeguarding of this facility. It is an to disturb what is good about it and there are a lot of good attempt to move forward with a genuine intent and there things about it and the collection that Mr Murray and his are members of these departments who will not allow father have assembled there over a period of years and we ministers to collude behind their backs in order to try and have a way forward to try and accommodate that in the move their own agenda. That is why we have departmental longer term, but I would certainly like to see the members and I would hope that those departmental departments and Mr Murray talking about this for a little members will be listened to - certainly in my experience bit longer to see that there is a way forward, that there is they always are - and therefore a decision is reached, but some way forward so that we do not actually get to a certainly I can assure this hon. Court that as far as the situation where we do something in this hon. Court, for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry Department is the best possible reason, and actually do something concerned we look forward to continuing negotiations with negatively that we did not anticipate, some sidekick the Minister for Tourism and Mr Murray, so that everybody reaction from this amendment, and certainly in that in this Court should be satisfied about the long-term future `refurbish and maintain the buildings' I see a danger in of the collection. Thank you, Mr President. that, that we are actually changing the status quo when there is the offer of a lease, as the Minister for Agriculture Mr Duggan: Mr President, hon. members, it was has already mentioned, which will provide the status quo. because of Mrs Hannan's attitude last month that Mr Maybe it should change departments. That is something Downie had to put this resolution down, because she is for the departments to talk about. high-handed at times and it was a climb-down today, Mrs I understand that there is concern and that these Hannan and I think my colleague for East Douglas is quite amendments are all targeted at maintaining something that correct here. the Isle of Man can be proud of and its best way to do that, Other members have mentioned regarding the museum and of the two amendments before us I would suggest the up there should be demolished and got rid of. Well, I disagree really, because it is all part of the scene. The Ti' one in the name of Mr Cretney is certainly the one to go week there, they go up to the bungalow. They have got the forward with, because at the end of the day there is a tram going to the summit. There is the cafe up there, there commitment to come back to the November 1997 sitting, is the museum. It is all part of the scene and it is not, as Mr whereby if the criticisms that the hon. member for East Luft said, just for the two weeks. You have got the car Douglas alludes to are true, then she can make her point at rally, you have got the Manx Grand Prix and other events that time. I do not think there will be the need because by as well, so really speaking I support the resolution and Mr November there is ample time to have this sorted. The Kniveton's amendment. amendment in Mr Kniveton's name does not give that availability, it is too definitive. Therefore I would urge Mr Lowey: I think we are really trying to whip up a bit members to support - of opposition somehow.

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Mr Downie: I wish you would. I have run out of paper. at here. But I would say that the forestry division would like to see the cafe and the aerials and all off the top of the Mr Lowey: Can I say, Mr President, I am reminded a mountain, but we know they are there for strategic reasons. bit by the last man that spoke that it is part of our heritage, I would say to hon. members, if you are saying to us this thing. Well, all I can say is my heritage only goes back `We don't want you to listen', I am afraid that is not the as far as George Formby and 'No Limit' and I did not see signal that I have been getting. Here we react immediately. the museum featured in 'No Limit' and therefore it did not The hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, is an exist. enthusiast and we have got to give him a hundred per cent But seriously, I think this resolution has actually been for his enthusiasm. Mr Downie, if he had been in the the result of last month's, (Mr Downie: Hear, hear.) but I Department of Home Affairs, would have been looking to think at the end of the day this Court should be pleased take this under his wing because he was fearful of the that we are getting the result that we wanted. (Mr Gilbey: museum disappearing. Hear, hear.) However we have arrived at it is immaterial. I Now, I know Mr Murray, I knew his father, I have known have no difficulty with the resolution, I have no difficulty the family for years, probably longer than anybody in this at all with the first amendment and I certainly have no Court. I know how important that is to the family and I difficulty with my minister's amendment and I will be know that it is their income. They pay a very low rent and supporting the minister's amendment. Also, if that fails, I we are here suggesting that he does not get enough trade. shall be supporting the hon. member for Onchan's He gets enough trade to keep him going and that is all he amendment and if that fails I will be supporting the is worried about. H.e is a low-key business man. He is not resolution. a high-flyer. I would say that it would frighten Mr Murray to death if he thought of his collection going into this huge Mr Brown: And if that fails. . . (Laughter) museum, because it is a business for him and if his collection goes in there and he has got no income, his Mr Lowey: But at the end of the day let me say this, business is gone. I think, as the hon. Treasury Minister that the reality of the situation is that it is the museum and said, we have got to consider also the gentleman concerned the collection, it is not the site that is important on this here and that is the Murray family. occasion it is what is in it, and I think all of us should be So I would say to hon. members that we reacted to the very relieved to hear that the one-year extension that we situation of last Tynwald. We reacted in a way that the two were all talking about that had not been granted last month ministers got together immediately and they are moving is now in effect going to be or could be, we have had a forward. We have heard today that they are now looking trailer saying it could be six years. I am delighted because at a long lease and I would say that that long lease will that does fit into the jigsaw that has actually been created probably be the saviour of Mr Murray and he will sleep at this afternoon, because I am sure that is the timescale we nights. are talking about in reality. It may be brought forward a bit with the millennium with a bit of luck. Mr Duggan: They should have done that in the first So this Court should not feel aggrieved and I do not place. think, as the hon. member for West Douglas said, that we are doing ourselves any favours by trying to whip up Mr Gelling: Hon. members, it was not until last week artificially some sort of divisions that are not there. that this all came to a head, and I do not blame the hon. I would say vote on it, I would say support the first member, belt, braces, the lot, because he is making sure resolution and if you do not, support the second resolution that if nothing had happened, this resolution was down. and if you do not, the fall-back position is support the That is political tactics. resolution. Hon. members, I would say go along with the non- contrived amendment because I can assure you that it is Mr Gelling: Mr President, I think it is the third time in genuine, the Council of Ministers want this to work, and this session of Tynwald I stand up with concern and the leave it with the Tourism and the Agriculture and Forestry concern is that we keep on saying to hon. members we are Ministers to get this together, with the other resolution that listening to you. Every Thursday after the Tynwald sitting has gone before. I am quite sure we are on the right road. we have a sitting of the Council of Ministers where the agenda is to look and talk about what happened in Tynwald, The President: May I call on the mover to reply? Hon. what did members say and what we should do about it. In member. this particular case that is exactly what was done. It was agreed unanimously throughout the Council that immediate Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. First of all I action should be taken, the two ministers should get would like to thank everybody who has taken part. I never together and that is where we are heading. for one moment thought that a £100 a year lease on a I would say that it is unanimous in the Council of building on the side of Snaefell would generate so much Ministers that they have a wish that that strategic museum debate, but still, it has. should be there the same as the strategic CAA aerial is on Really I am not going to bore you with what everybody the top of the mountain. We do not like it there, but it is said. It has been a good debate, a valuable debate. strategically there. This is strategically there because of I would like to start off by mentioning the comments of the importance of the TT and that is what we are looking the Chief Minister. He says that they were concerned and

Murray's Motorcycle Museum — Transfer of Ownership of Land — Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T647 he as a Chief Minister and his Council of Ministers are the white paper. The second again comes from the hon. listening to us. I accept that, but some time, Chief Minister member the Minister for Tourism and Leisure, the Hon. you are going to have to put your house in order (A Mr Cretney, and that also has been circulated on a white Member: Hear, hear.) and you are going to have to tie a paper. Now, I propose to put, first of all, Mr Kniveton's few of these loose cannons down which roll about the deck, amendment and we will progress according to the fate of because you have had an appalling two days in Tynwald that amendment. and I hope that come October when you have had the Now, you know what the resolution is at 32. Will those chance to tie a few loose cannons down there is going to in favour of Mr Kniveton's amendment standing part of be a lot more co-operation and trust between the Council the resolution please say aye; against, no. of Ministers and the rest of us on the back benches. Now, A division was called forand voting resulted as follows: I have said enough on that subject, so you sort them out. I thank Mr Crowe for his support once again. In the Keys - Mr Kniveton's amendment, hon. members - as has been said early on in the debate, I am in a situation here where For: Messrs. Cannan, Houghton, Duggan, Mrs Cannell, I am on a winner whichever goes ahead, because I put this Messrs Singer and Kniveton - 6 motion down with the intent of first of all securing the collection up there and to give some time for negotiations Against: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir Miles to take place and I feel that I have achieved that today and Walker, Messrs Brown, Crowe, Cretney, Braidwood, come what may, whatever decision is made here, I am Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Karran, confident that Mr Cretney, with his amendment, will have Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 17 the same effect. It will secure the collection and it will allow talks to continue. The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment fails in I am disappointed, however, that the Department of the House, 17 votes being cast against and 6 for. Agriculture and Fisheries have really dragged their feet with regard to progressing this lease. (Members: Hear, In the Council - hear.) I first got involved in this issue back in April and early May and to say we are going to meet the person on For: None Monday, next Monday, really in my mind just is not good enough. There has been enough stirred up about this Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and particular issue. Mrs Christian - 6 Deemster Luft of the same department gave a bit of a background. I am a conservationist, deemster, and I one The President: In the Council, no votes being cast in day would like to see Snaefell restored to its original favour of that amendment, 6 votes have been cast against. appearance, but in fairness there was such a bombshell The hon. member for Onchan's amendment fails to carry. dropped on the Court last month, or on Keys last month, it Now we turn to the next amendment which is that of came totally out of the blue, nobody had a clue what the the hon. Mr Cretney. Will those in favour of the hon. Mr department's policy was with regard to this building, and Cretney's amendment standing part of the resolution please it just shows you how dangerous it is, as I say, in Nelson's say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. time to have a loose cannon on the deck. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: I hope that the Council of Ministers have perhaps learnt from this, because they have obviously done an awful lot For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir of work and they have got a lot of work to do as well to get Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Houghton, Crowe, Cretney, over this hump and get this issue progressed. Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs I naturally assume that terms for a lease have now been Singer, Bell, Karran, Corkin, Gelling and the Speaker - agreed and I would be grateful as the mover of this 20 resolution if confirmation can be given to the members of this Court when a lease has been signed with Mr Murray, Against: Mr Duggan, Mrs Cannell and Mr Kniveton - 3 just indicating the number of years. We are not interested in the commercial side, but if confirmation could be given The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment carries in - Chief Minister, if you will nod your head in agreement - the House, with 20 votes being cast for and three against. to the members of Tynwald Court when a lease has been signed. In the Council - But with that, hon. members, I thank you for your support and as a final recommendation I would be willing For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs to go along, any of them would suit me, but we will see Christian - 6 how things go. Against: None The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out at item 32 on the order paper. To that resolution I have two The President: In the Council 6 votes have been cast tabled amendments. The first in the name of the hon. in favour of the amendment with no votes against. That member for Onchan, Mr Kniveton, circulated to you on amendment carries.

Murray's Motorcycle Museum — Transfer of Ownership of Land — Amended Motion Carried T648 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997

Hon. members, I will now put the resolution as amended the prison.' This nonsense needs to stop. We need a penal as the substantive motion. Will those in favour please say policy that works, cuts down reoffending and breaks the aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. circle of criminology in prison. This is important to society. and the protection of our quality of life. It upsets me even more when the very people who will be shouting this will be the few people who would be PENAL POLICY — APPOINTMENT OF flashing the old school tie, who would have the money to SELECT COMMITTEE — MOTION LOST get good legal advice and are not depending on some third- rate service from the legal aid department if they are lucky. The President: Item 33, the hon. member for Onchan, I would hope that we would save ourselves from saying Mr Karran. this sort of negative claptrap and I would hope that we would see a select committee that would not just look at Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to move: the UK's solution but would look closer at other countries such as Norway and Sweden. I want our standards to be That a select committee of five members be better and I want our quality of life to be better for our appointed to consider penal policy, to take evidence under citizens. The bottom line: if we follow the UK blindly, the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876 and to report. then expect to inherit the society of the UK. I would hope that any select committee would take To start with this motion is not an attack on the Minister advice from all parties, not just those who need a prison for Home Affairs or an attack on the Department of Home for their employment, not just the police and the judiciary, Affairs. It does not mean that the Council of Ministers is but other areas as well: the Prison Reform Trust. I would undermined or under attack either. Let us have a debate on also hope that we would take advice and look at Europe the core issue and not allow it to be killed off because it and Scandinavia and look at their reoffending rates. comes from the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, the I do not want to see a select committee reporting in a scourge of the establishment. rush in the near future, because there is a need for a full I have sat in this hon. Court for far to long to see how investigation, laying down a penal policy that we want for the negative side of this Court can be used, not for the the twenty-first century, having an open mind to look at benefit of the Manx people. other countries and how they deal with offending and to The second point I would like to raise is that I would come up with a report to this hon. Court that is positive, like to raise that any select committee dealing with penal proactive instead of reactive, and we have seen that on so policy will be dealing with this issue separately from the many fronts with government. We have to look at all the Home Affairs Department, dealing with the remedial works implications, but there are always dangers, and as I said at that are needed at the prison, because the prison, as I have the start of this debate, the prison is a time bomb ticking said on a number of occasions, is like a time bomb and we away and we must make sure that we have sound, sensible, have not got the luxury of sitting around and doing nothing. strategic long-term penal policies for the future. Decisions will have to be taken on many issues, now. The remedial work that should be taken as a matter of But to resolve some of the major issues we as members urgency for the redevelopment of the existing site should of Tynwald should not allow ourselves to be put in a corner be carried out with the Home Affairs Department now, at best or given the bum's rush at worst, with the taxpayer working out the plans separately, and I repeat, separately having to foot the bill, as we have seen with the meat plant from the select committee. Then we need a major debate and many other issues. on penal services when the select committee reports back. Whilst statistics and figures can be used to prove I welcome the decision of the minister and his whatever you want, we see in the Independent newspaper department to close down the segregation unit and his need of 9th July 1997, 'Prison population per 100,000 in England to implement an early-release scheme for some inmates. and Wales, 99; Scotland, 110; Northern Ireland, 106; Spain, The hon. Court should do the job as well, not just 122; Portugal, 119.' They were the highest in Western following the UK, because we do not just do a disservice Europe. The Isle of Man with its 125.5 per 100,000, unless to this Court in my view but also the Manx quality of life you include the visitors - it might be one way for tourism will be adversely affected. We want to preserve that and on the Island - it would bring it down to 120: the highest by not setting up a select committee we will ensure, if in Western Europe. This is not the first time that these sorts action is not taken on this front, we will lose it. What any select committee should do is take evidence of statistics have been proven. These statistics have been from relevant bodies, from all interested parties, to proven on a number of occasions. formulate a total review of penal services, alternative When you allow for this sort of information and when support services, to report back to Tynwald with you realise that there is almost open war between the High recommendations on the effective ways of dealing with Bailiff's Office and the magistrates department, when they reoffending, looking at punishment as well as reform and are not invited to the opening of the courthouse, when you more effective ways of cutting down reoffending. can end up in gaol for not filling out your census form, I This Court will do a disservice if it allows itself to wring think we have to have a serious look at our penal policy. its hands, as it often does, and says, 'We have no ideas.' Who needs to be put in prison is a major factor. Tynwald Court has a role to play and we should not Now, I am tired of those who come out with the usual abrogate that responsibility just because it is daunting, it comments like 'Throw away the key', 'Take the roof off is complex and it is demanding. I believe this hon. Court

Penal Policy — Appointment of Select Committee — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T649

should accept the challenge and I beg to move the motion is, from the resolution before us today. In fact the hon. before you. member has made a couple of comments that the select committee should be dealing with remedial matters relating Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. to the prison quite separately from Home Affairs and he is also saying that the select committee should not report in Mr Duggan: I will be voting against the resolution, Mr a rush. There is every need for a rush, we need to get that President, because, as a member of the Department of problem resolved quickly, and if the select committee is Home Affairs, I can assure the Court that the minister has set up today, knowing first of all the pace that select put this as a top priority. We have got a committee looking committees tend to work at, it could be at least a year or into this set up and we are looking at it very, very seriously, 18 months before we get a report back, and because of the the whole issue. So it is totally unnecessary, hon. members, open-ended nature of this resolution it leaves it probably to set up any other committees because we are looking at to the discretion of this committee to investigate every this right now, deliberating, and it is a top priority, I can aspect of penal policy, possibly even impinging on the assure everyone. refurbishment of the prison itself. Now, that is going to mean that the work which my working party in the Mr Bell: Mr President, I appreciate the hour is getting Department of Home Affairs is doing at the moment, to late so I will try and keep my comments as short as possible. try and speed up the refurbishment, is going to have to I have to say first of all I think I am probably responsible immediately be put on ice because we cannot take decisions for bringing this resolution to the hon. Court myself. without knowing what the recommendations of the select Foolishly I took the hon. member into my confidence some committee are going to be and what you are doing today, weeks ago to tell him exactly what we were doing at the if you support this resolution and give it any credence at prison, including reviewing penal policies, and the hon. all, is saying to me and my department, 'Hold on the prison, member has jumped in ahead of us with this resolution, leave it as it is' and we will be talking at least two years which I think is most unfortunate because we were being before we will be able to get it back into gear again. Now, honest and open and trying to explain exactly what our if that is what you want, that is fine, but I would stress to policies are. hon. members, do not come back to the Department of I also find it objectionable in this constant assumption Home Affairs members and complain when the whole thing on the part of this hon. member that he is the only person blows up in our face in a few months' time. This is a very that has a social conscience and is the only person capable serious decision that you have to make today with possibly of seeing through policies which initiate social change. I extremely unfortunate consequences if it goes the wrong can assure him that is not the case and in fact if that had way. been the case perhaps he would have initiated some The hon. member has made great play about the need changes himself during the two and a half years he was a to have a full debate on sentencing policy in particular and member of the department not very long ago. on penal matters in general, but I would remind the hon. There are issues which come before this hon. Court from member and indeed inform the new members perhaps, who time to time which, to put it loosely, we can have some have come in since last November, that it was only in June fun with, we can score points, and we can get headlines, 1996 when we had a full-blown debate on this very issue and there is no ill effect after that resolution. But I would when the Select Committee on Law and Order reported, say to this hon. Court the issue of resolving the situation at and if the hon. member would take a look at that report, if the prison at the moment has to be one of our top priorities, he would bother to read it, he would see in section 9 we not just in my department, but in the whole of government. have criminal justice strategies, sentencing options, which There is a very, very serious problem developing up there were discussed at some length by that committee and by which has been developing now for quite a number of this hon. Court when the report came back. That is only years. Unfortunately the remedial action which was 12 months ago. Twelve months previously we had another required has not been taken. We cannot put it off any longer. report which admittedly was internal but nevertheless an We are staring major difficulties not only for the prison in in-depth report on the sentencing powers of the juvenile the face but also possibly for the Island. court. That was only two years ago. Both these issues have Just as an example I would remind or tell hon. members, had considerable discussion and debate and investigation you may not know, that this week alone we have seven within the last two years. What has changed? All we are questions on the prison and prison policy being asked in going to do, if we go ahead with this resolution today, is to the House of Lords in Westminster. There is more off-Island duplicate and repeat what in fact we discussed and attention being addressed to this issue by the week, and I investigated only 12 months ago and given the urgent need think it is incumbent on us to recognise that and do our to move the redevelopment programme of the prison on utmost to make sure that we bring our prison and our prison as quickly as possible, I think it is highly irresponsible of regime up to acceptable civilised standards, which I think this Court to pursue that course of action now. We do not by common consent, and I would be very surprised if have the luxury of time to study our navels indefinitely. At anyone in this hon. Court would dissent, are not acceptable some stage we have to get off the roundabout, we have to at the present level. make decisions, and crunch time is coming on this It is, in spite of what the hon. member says, impossible particular matter. to separate the refurbishment of the prison or the We ourselves as a department do not dictate who goes redevelopment of the prison, whatever the final decision to prison or who does not. It is the judiciary at the end of

Penal Policy — Appointment of Select Committee — Motion Lost T650 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 the day which has to decide what the interpretation at least has reported. Now, if that is what you want, as I say, tell us of the sentencing policy is going to be. We have at the quite clearly, but be prepared to accept the consequences prison to respond to whatever the judiciary puts upon us. for that. If not, if you feel the same as myself and my At the moment the sentencing regime is perhaps harsher colleagues who are working very closely with me on this, than it has been for quite some time and there may be an that the prison is a matter of the utmost urgency, the need argument at some stage to look at exactly what is to resolve the difficulty up there, and if you are prepared happening. to accept my assurance that as well as the bricks and mortar We have a major problem at the prison, in so far as, as improvements we will be looking at the whole regime has already been touched on, because of what has happened which will be in place in the prison when it is finally over the segregation unit we are having to allow some completed, then I would urge you to support me and my prisoners to go out earlier than perhaps we would otherwise colleagues and vote firmly against this resolution. like, but we have no choice in that matter. But that situation is going to prevail for some time and, again, this is all the Mr Crowe: Mr President, the whole subject of penal more reason to get on with the redevelopment programme reform is a very complex one and is not one that I would so that we can first of all get a new segregation unit built, want to express any great opinion on. One thing I do want and I will be coming back to this Court, I hope, within the to make a point on today is that whilst it is important to next 12, 15 months with a scheme for that and I hope hon. carry out some essential improvements to the present members will be supporting me at that stage, but also then prison, I think in the longer term we need a prison on a press on with a major redevelopment at the same time to greenfield site, away from a residential area - enable us to accommodate what in fact the judiciary send in our direction. A Member: Hear, hear. As part of our exercise of identifying a way forward for the prison, we are not just simply looking at bricks and A Member: It is in your constituency. mortar and at the accommodation facilities within the prison, we will be looking at the entire regime from Mr Crowe: All right, it is in my constituency, but I rehabilitation to, well, all other aspects, education, think it would be a mistake to try and renovate what is a whatever it might be. We will be looking at the whole gamut Victorian antiquity and is going to be very, very expensive of what sort of regime we will be putting into place in the to renovate and I think there is an opportunity, with a bit prison to take us forward over the next 20 or 30 years. A of forward-planning and obviously required investment, lot of thought and a lot of work is going to have to go into and I am looking five, possibly 10 years down the track, this and it is quite wrong for one hon. member to try and that you build a modern prison to the highest standards hijack this process at this particular juncture for whatever which meet all the best criteria for a modern-day prison end he sees himself. It is too important. complex. This business of trying to improve what we have, I am sure hon. members are already aware, which an old-fashioned building, I think is the wrong approach, perhaps highlights the urgency of the problem, that Lord and I can understand that you would need essential repairs Williams is coming to the Isle of Man on 15th August to and essential improvements to bring it up to certain basic initially simply meet the various politicians here and see a standards, but I would ask that the Council of Ministers bit of the Isle of Man, but one of the first things he has look closely at a long-term view at a prison on a greenfield asked to see when he comes here is to have a tour of the site. Thank you, Mr President. prison. He is a very zealous prison reformer, I understand, in his previous existence and again it does just highlight The President: May I call on the mover to reply? Hon. the pressure which we may be put under in the not-too- member. distant future if we are not seen to be making constructive progress. I would suggest by supporting this resolution it Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would say that I am appalled will send out quite the opposite message, that we are not today, appalled at the statements by the hon. member and in any rush to reform our prison, that we are not in any he is about as factual as his reply was in the previous House great hurry to rectify that which we know is wrong and to the question that I put down last week. As I have said which is indefensible because we want to sail off down before, I do not want to win for the benefit of winning. I another blind alley with yet another review of something want to win because I am right. I get really upset. I am the we have completed within the last 12 months, and I think member for health. I took up the responsibility because that will be seen by outside individuals in particular as the the fact is nobody else wanted it. I went to the Home Affairs irresponsible act that it is. Department and any member that has sat in here when the There is a great deal that I could say tonight because I minister was there of the Home Affairs Department knows feel quite aggrieved at the way the hon. member has what job one had being a member of that department, and handled this particular issue, especially bearing in mind the way one was got rid of, and when he was talking about the goodwill that was extended to him in the first place to selective memory, the fact that one did not put questions try and keep him in the picture as to what was happening. down about a certain other person that should vacate their Hon. members really have a choice: support this position. We are talking about opportunism. My resolution today by all means but understand clearly, if constituents are not interested in penal reform. Most of this goes through, that the progress on putting the new them would rather have them throw the key away, so there prison regime together will have to stop until the committee are no votes in that, and I get rather upset as the man that

Penal Policy — Appointment of Select Committee — Motion Lost TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T651

has told the government if they were not going to do away future because it is a time bomb, it is a time bomb ready to with hanging, a death sentence, I would do it as a private go off at any time. I am amazed we have not had a lot member's Bill, because I know it will not happen at the more strife up there. We have been very, very fortunate, moment, but one day we will get independence, because I especially when you work out that you have got something know what will happen. The man that stood up and said like 40-odd different sections of prisoner up there. When that he believes in random breath testing, seat belts, the you got a prison in the United Kingdom it might have eight breathalyser, maximum speed limits - I am not out for but what you do, you class them in different things from courting popularity. violent, sex offenders and low-key offenders, then you get I spoke about this issue before I spoke to the hon. the vulnerable sections of each one and it is like a pyramid member, but what I am concerned about, and I think you effect of the different channels which the prisoner works have got to be very careful, is the fact that we do not end in. Now, one of the problems we have is the fact that up in a situation where we get the bum's rush because we because our prison has to deal with such a multitude of have a track record of it. We have. It is all right, people do offenders it is very, very difficult to accommodate them not like plain speaking in this hon. Court and I know I am under one roof. not popular with the majority of you and that is more likely But I would like to say, and to the hon. member for why I have been one of the senior members in this House North Douglas, is I am afraid that if my motion does not that has always been classed as the chief rabbi - I have had go through today, what you will see is political expediency more pass-overs for ministerial appoint (Laughter) simply and not what is best for the job. because of the fact of my straight talking and the fact that I believe that I would be wrong to this Court, to mislead I believe in being honest about these things, and one thing this Court and say by going ahead with my motion that it that I do take great exception to is having my integrity will stop any work being done on the prison. I do not want attacked when I reckon I am second to none in this hon. that. I remember what the prison was like. I was mortified Court as far as that is concerned. But I will not get into the as a member of the department after about a year that one personalisations from the hon. member. He proved the was allowed off just the fire service where you were point when I wrote to him a letter, which I did not circulate allowed to choose the colour of the fire chief's car, so long to other members because I was not wanting to rub it in, as you chose red, and that is the reality of what went on in but the delight that he wanted to try and bloody the nose the Home Affairs Department and I am disappointed that and circulate and he just proved the actions that I was right, a few other hon. members who have been in this hon. Court that the core issue was lost on the personal abuse. did not stand up and support the truth coming out as far as Now, the point is I do not want tonight to win this debate that is concerned. because of his personal abuse and I certainly do not want So I would hate the hon. member for North Douglas to to win this debate if what he says what is going to happen, think that somehow by supporting my proposal there will that we would stop all the short-term plans that are needed not be investment. I believe this hon. Court should support for the prison, the loos and everything else. I do not want my proposal because if you do not support my proposal I that to happen. That would happen only because of the am sure you will end up with a fait accompli, and I think way this administration has gone, the way it has gone for what you do not want is a fait accompli when people like many years, that if they do not win their own way they myself stood up and said to the then Minister for foot-stamp and take a temper tantrum like a four-year-old, Agriculture, 'We have got no answers'. We just went ahead and that is what the problem is, and I have to be honest and did that. I believe that if we were to go down this dual with you, if that is going to happen, then maybe I should pathway we would have the Home Affairs Department lose this motion today, maybe I should because that is not getting the stuff that should have been done when I was a what we need. member of the department, but the hon. minister knows The only last thing I would like to say, apart from the that if you are not the minister you have only got the misinformation that the hon. minister has put out, is what delegation of what the minister says, and I believe that if has he done about that select committee and the this hon. House cuts out the personal abuse and the recommendations of that on law and order? What has his department done to implement that? He has done nothing misinformation it should support my proposal and I hope and that is the truth of the matter. it does because I tell you now: you will do a disservice to I got the sack off the Department of Home Affairs, if this Island if you do not. The government should be big the truth is known, because of things which now other enough to carry on with its job and its responsibilities and members know we are talking about and I withdrew things this hon. Court should be big enough to do its from this agenda that would have done me a lot of good responsibilities and if the minister wants to take a foot- with a number of policemen that live in Onchan because stamping situation, that is up to him, but I think that is not of things. So let us get away from the opportunism. good for the executive as far as I am concerned and I hope What I would say where the contribution from the hon. members will support me. member for North Douglas is concerned is that I have to be honest with you: we will have to do a lot of expensive The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out work on the prison no matter what we do. There is no doubt at item 33 on the order paper. I will put the resolution. about that. There will have to be a sizeable amount on the Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The noes existing facility. That will have to be done within the near have it.

Penal Policy — Appointment of Select Committee — Motion Lost T652 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: Food Act 1996 - Fresh Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (No. 2) 0 In the Keys - Regulations 1997 (SD No. 365/97)

For: Mr Karran - 1 FRESH MEAT (HYGIENE AND INSPECTION) Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1997 —APPROVED Sir Miles Walker, Messrs Brown, Houghton, Crowe, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs Shimmin, The President: The Minister for Local Government and Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, Bell, Corkill, the Environment to move item 3 on the supplementary Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 21 order paper.

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails in the Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: House with 21 votes being cast against and 1 for. That the Fresh Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (No. In the Council - 2) Regulations be approved.

For: None These regulations provide for the licensing of slaughterhouses, cutting rooms and cold stores, providing Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and certain criteria are met. The regulations also lay down the Mrs Christian - 6 procedures for meat inspection to ensure meat is produced in a hygienic manner and passed as fit for consumption. The President: In the Council, hon. members, no votes Hon. members will be aware that the Island exports the were cast in favour of the resolution and 6 votes against. majority of the meat it produces to the European The resolution fails to carry. Community. To do so the place where the meat is produced and the manner in which it it produced must meet the criteria laid down in EC directive 91/497. These regulations SUPPLEMENTARY ORDER PAPER - give effect to that directive and are similar to the UK's STANDING ORDER SUSPENDED Fresh Meat (Hygiene Inspection) Regulations 1995. The regulations provide the criteria to be met for the The President: Now, hon. members, we enter the final licensing of the meat plant, following consultation with straight by turning to the supplementary order paper and I the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, and call upon the Minister for Local Government and the a recommendation from the chief veterinary officer. Environment to present item 1 on that paper to the Court. The department will be required to employ the services of a designated veterinary officer from the Department of Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to act in a supervisory capacity at the meat plant. New meat inspection charges That standing order 10.9 be suspended and that, were placed before the June Tynwald which will enable under standing order 2.2(6), the following business be the department to recover some of those costs. The considered. regulations also provide the criteria that the meat inspectors must use to ensure that the meat produced is disease-free In doing so, I apologise to members for the need to and fit for human consumption. address this business in this way. It has come about through The regulations revoke the existing Meat Inspection the schedules 16 and 7 in the original orders on the principal Regulations 1965, the Slaughterhouse (Hygiene) order paper being superimposed. Regulations 1978 and the Meat Inspection (Amendment) Regulations 1997. The Meat Inspection (Amendment) Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President. Regulations 1997 amend the 1965 regulations to provide that only the department can carry out meat inspection. The President: Is that agreed, hon. members? Formerly, of course, local authorities could carry out this work. Consultations have been made with the Department of Members: Agreed. Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the Department of Transport, as well as the Fatstock Marketing Association, The President: Thank you. the Agricultural Marketing Society and the Manx National Farmers Union. The majority of the costs which these regulations impose PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT have already been met by government when the new meat plant was built. The department has already employed the The President: The learned Clerk to lay papers. authorised meat inspector. The only new costs to the department will be the cost of the services provided by a The Clerk: I lay before the Court: veterinary officer of DAFF.

Supplementary Order Paper — Standing Order Suspended Papers Laid Before the Court Fresh Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (No. 2) Regulations 1997 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 T653

Subject to Tynwald approval these regulations will come The Speaker: Mr President, if I may, sir, at this juncture, into force on 1st August 1997. I beg to move. having by sheer accident given you a somewhat bloodied nose at lunch-time, I do feel that I really wish to take this Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President. opportunity to interrupt you now, as it were, in full flight. I think, hon. members, on Wednesday next, 23rd July Mr The President: Does any hon. member wish to speak President will achieve his 80th birthday and it would indeed to the resolution? If not, I will put the resolution standing be remiss of the House of Keys, which you have served at item 3 on the supplementary order paper. Will those in for so long and I know you hold in such high regard, if we favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The did not take the chance this afternoon to wish you very, ayes have it. very many happy returns. (Members: Hear, hear.) It is our wish, and I know it is the wish of our staff, that you have a thoroughly happy day and collectively we congratulate you and wish you all the very best. (Applause) STANDING ORDER SUSPENDED The President: Thank you, hon. members. The President: Now, hon. members, that concludes the business before the Court. Mr Lowey: I think, Mr President, may I, on behalf of the Council, associate the Council's collective support of Members: No. Mr Speaker's glowing tribute to your birthday, sir: eighty The President: Over to 4? Eee, I was in too much of a years young. hurry there! (Laughter and interjections) Mr Brown: Mine's a rum! Mr Brown: We are keen as well, Mr President. (Laughter) The President: Thank you, indeed, hon. members. This is typical of politics: first you get a bloody nose (Laughter) The President: Item 4, (Laughter) the Chairman of the then you get congratulated for receiving it! Thank you, Standing Orders Committee. hon. members. Now, that does conclude the business before the Court Sir Miles Walker: Thank you. Mr President, I beg to and I should like to thank all the members for the co- move: operation with the chair which has enabled us to completed the order papers expeditiously. I hope you will find a measure of relaxation in the days of recess that lie ahead, That standing order 10.9 be suspended and that, while recognising that the work of the Court continues under standing order 2.2(6), the following business be without pause. considered. The Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as Mr Speaker may place Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. before them.

The President: Is that agreed, hon. members? The Council withdrew. Members: Agreed.

The President: Thank you. HOUSE OF KEYS The Speaker: Hon. members, can I ask you to sit for a few moments. please? Hon. members, I have no wish to PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT delay this House at all but I think it is right that I should inform this hon. House that I have, or your office of the The President: Item 5 then. Speaker has, received an invitation to attend the 14th Conference of Commonwealth Speakers and Presiding The Clerk: I lay before the Court: Officers. It would be held in Trinidad and Tobago and it will be from 5th January to 11th January next year. It is Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Second Report my intent, subject to your consent. hon. members, that I 1996/97: Petitions for Redress Presented on 7th July 1997. should attend.

Members: Hear, hear. PRESIDENT — BIRTHDAY WISHES The Speaker: Hon. members, the House will now stand The President: Now, we have achieved the objective! adjourned until the third Tuesday of October next. in Hon. members, that does conclude the business before the Tynwald Court, and again I would like to join with Mr Court. President's remarks: thank you for your co-operation in

Standing Order Suspended Papers Laid Before the Court President — Birthday Wishes House of Keys T654 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 16th JULY 1997 getting through our agenda this time in the two days, and for those of you taking the opportunity for a summer break this year without the idea of a general election coming up in November, my very best wishes.

The House adjourned at 6.55 p.m.

House of Keys