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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, 26th April 1994 at 10.00 a.m.

Present: arrive at a percentage of capacity utilisation as requested The Speaker (the Hon. J.C. Cain) (Douglas West); we have taken the total numbers of each species which the Hon. A.R. Bell and Mr. T.R.A. Groves (Ramsey); Mr. R.E. new meat plant has been designed to handle and converted Quine, OBE (Ayre); Mr. J.D.Q. Cannan (Michael); Hon. those numbers into unit numbers as recognised within the H. Hannan (Peel); Mr. W.A. Gilbey (Glenfaba); Dr. E.J. industry. For example, one beast equals one unit, three pigs Mann (Garff); Hon. D. North (Middle); Messrs. P. Karran, equal one unit, five lambs or sheep equal one unit. The R.K. Corkill and J.R. Kniveton (Onchan); Hon. B. May meat plant is designed to handle 30,160 units annually. and Mr. W.D. Corlett (Douglas North); Messrs. A.C. Similarly, converting the throughput of the present plant Duggan and D.C. Cretney (Douglas South); Messrs. D.F.K. in a likewise manner, the utilisation of the new plant over Delaney and P.W. Kermode (Douglas East); Mr. A.F. the last three years would have read as follows: 1991 - 84 Downie (Douglas West); Hon. J.A. Brown (Castletown); per cent; 1992 - 84 per cent; 1993 - 77 per cent. However, Hon. D.J. Gelling (Malew and Santon); Hon. M.R. Walker, production from the farm is very seasonal. For example, CBE, Hon. J. Corrin and Mr. N.Q. Cringle (Rushen); with in 1991 the workload presented in terms of units on a month Prof. T. St.J. N. Bates, Secretary of the House. by month basis would have varied from a high of 93 per cent in November to a low of 68 per cent in February. In 1992, had the new meat plant been in operation, the The Chaplain took the prayers. percentage utilisation would have ranged from a high of 95 per cent in November to a low of 59 per cent in LEAVE OF ABSENCE February. Arising from live exports and a loss of confidence in the industry the throughput of the present meat plant The Speaker: Now, hon. members, leave of absence was depressed in 1993. Nevertheless, using the same has been given today to the hon. member for Douglas East, formula, the utilisation of the new plant would have been Mr. Kermode, to the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr. a high of 85 per cent in December 1993 to a low of 56 per Downie, from 4 o'clock, to the hon. member for Douglas cent in February 1993. With confidence back in the East, Mr. Delaney, for about an hour from 2.30 p.m. and industry, expert management and the opportunities which to the hon. member for Castletown for about an hour from the new meat plant offers I am satisfied that past decisions about 11 a.m. made were sound and I look to the future, working with progressive farmers as an interesting challenge for the betterment of Manx agriculture. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MEAT PLANT — CAPACITY UTILISATION - QUESTION BY MR. CORLETT Mr. Corlett: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In the UK, due to derogation, plant capacity is high while livestock The Speaker: Now, we have nine questions for oral numbers are falling. Will this not encourage the export of answer this morning and the first of these questions is in animals from the Island and thereby further reduce the the name of the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr. utilisation of the meat plant? Corlett, and I call upon him to ask the question standing in his name. Mr. Corrin: Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this with the agricultural community and we are not aware of any Mr. Corlett: I beg leave to ask the Minister for powers that we could take to stop live exports, not that we Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: would want to because that could well be protecting an inefficient operation on the Island here. What percentage of capacity utilisation is projected Our future, as we see it in the industry, is to meet the for the new meat plant? challenge of live exports by providing an efficient operation here on the Island and giving the return to the Manx farmer The Speaker: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries that he would feel comfortable with. That is the challenge and Forestry to reply. and indeed a lot of work, including the Ernst and Young Report that is now being implemented, was all toward that Mr. Corrin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to goal.

Leave of Absence • Meat Plant — Capacity Utilisation — Question by Mr. Corlett K376 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, in the light of the minister's restrictions or freedoms there to be adhered to. I understand answer, how does the minister expect to combat the export from the chief veterinary officer that that is the position. of live animals off the Isle of Man if the farmers are being paid a higher profit margin by doing so rather than paying Dr. Mann: Could the minister please explain, if the the proposed increases in the kill charge at the new abattoir? unit charge at the moment is too high and thus is How do we combat that? encouraging live exports, how the higher unit handling charge of the new plant is going to make any difference? Mr. Corrin: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of where the hon. member gets the evidence to state a higher unit Mr. Corrin: Mr. Speaker, right from day one, indeed handling charge. We have been in discussions with the when I stood up in Tynwald to ask for the money for this Fatstock Marketing Association to agree a rent, a rent new plant I asked members, before they cast their vote, to between the Fatstock Marketing Association and a support understand that the meat plant, in isolation was not a viable amount that my department will pick up so that an proposition. At that time I think I remember saying the annualised rent is paid to the Department of Highways, alternative was to export annually somewhere around Ports and Properties in respect of the new plant. Now, as it 93,000 animals live, and if you take on board the weather is now well known, a restructuring process is taking place and the expertise now required of presenting animals in a finished state for the market and the holdups that that would in the FMA. They have taken and they are continuing to have occurred as well as the welfare of the animals as far engage more professional staff, indeed there is a major as travelling, that was totally unacceptable and it was the meeting on in this Island tomorrow of those same people, wish of the agricultural community three years ago when and it is looked forward that with a more efficient operation these issues were considered, and indeed it was accepted and a more aggressive and efficient marketing policy extra by Tynwald Court, that the building of the new plant was income can be generated and that income will be divided the better course forward to protect agriculture on the Isle between the producer and indeed the rental towards the of Man and of course to run it in an efficient manner and new meat plant. the rent would be, as I have said many times publicly, commensurate with the ability of the industry to pay. The Mr. Corlett: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Previously remainder will be picked up by my department as a support the minister has mentioned the need for a business plan. measure. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Should not such a plan have been formulated before construction, taking into account both utilisation and running costs? POWER OF ATTORNEY — PUBLIC AWARENESS — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN The Speaker: I think I am going to rule that question out of order. The hon. member for Douglas East, Mr. The Speaker: We move on to question number 2 and I Delaney. call upon the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Kann. Mr. Delaney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the light of Mr. Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder,, I beg to ask the Chief the minister's reply to my first supplementary, can I ask Minister: this then? Bearing in mind the deficiency announced by the minister as some £460,000-odd, is he then stating that Will the Council of Ministers make arrangements this deficiency will be carried directly by the taxpayer to draw the attention of the general public on a regular because, if not, would he not agree with me that any basis to the facility of an enduring power of attorney under increased rent will have to be carried by either the producer the Powers of Attorney Act 1987? of the meat that goes through the plant or the company itself, increasing the overhead of the plant and eventually The Speaker: The Chief Minister to reply. being passed on to the consumer? Somebody has to pay for this plant. Is the minister saying that this total deficiency Mr. Walker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is not our of £460,000 will be carried directly by the taxpayer? normal practice to make arrangements for bringing particular pieces of legislation to public attention on a The Speaker: That question I am also ruling out of regular basis. To do that for all legislation would be clearly order. The hon. member for Douglas South, Mr. Cretney. impractical and there would need to be particular reasons for singling out individual statutes for such treatment. Mr. Cretney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to I am not aware of any difficulty in relation to the Powers ask the minister if I could, could the minister explain why of Attorney Act 1987 which would be remedied by a it is that powers can not be taken to either limit, restrict or programme of regular publicity about the Act. However, stop the live export of animals? if the hon. member or any other hon. member has evidence which would support a case for regular publicity, I would Mr. Corrin: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, we export be happy to receive it and consider it so that that suggestion into the European Union market and there are free trade could be considered.

Power of Attorney — Public Awareness — Question by Mr. Karran HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K377

MINISTER FOR ARGICULTURE, FISHERIES TELEPHONE CHARGES — REDUCTIONS - AND FORESTRY —ACTIONS — MEETING QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY BETWEEN MR. WALKDEN AND CHIEF MINISTER — QUESTION BY DR. MANN The Speaker: Question number 5 in the name of the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr. Delaney. The Speaker: We turn to question number 3. I call upon the hon. member for Garff. Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: Dr. Mann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: (1) When will Isle of Man telephone subscribers be able to take advantage of reduced telephone charges that (a) Did Mr. M. Walkden request an interview with you their British counterparts now enjoy; and concerning the actions of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry; (2) as such reductions were made in the light of the large profits made by British Telecom and because (b) did the interview take place at your home on 12th of the need to be competitive with other suppliers January 1994; of telephone services, will you reassure Isle of Man telephone subscribers that you will control the (c) what were Mr. Walkden's allegations; and monopoly held by Manx Telecom and their charges in the light of their large profits? (d) what action did you take following the interview? The Speaker: I call upon the Chief Minister, for the The Speaker: Again I call upon the Chief Minister to last time, to reply. reply. Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to respond to this question, particularly since Manx Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that I had a Telecom announced yesterday their tariff package which meeting at my home on 12th January with Mr. Walkden shows that they have responded to the reduced telephone who is a constituent. It is not my practice to discuss in charges that are available to the customers of British public the substance of private meetings which I have with Telecom and Mercury Communications. constituents but I can say that at the end of the meeting I Meetings have taken place between Manx Telecom and confirmed with Mr. Walkden that there was no action that the Communications Commission since December of last he wished me to take. year and at the last of a series of meetings which was held last Friday on 22nd April the commission were able to accept the revised package of proposals for a revision of MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES Manx Telecom's tariffs. AND FORESTRY —ACTIONS — NEWSPAPER I would like to place on record my appreciation to both REPORTERS — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN the commission and Manx Telecom for the way in which they have worked together on this issue over the last five The Speaker: We turn now to question number 4 and I months and for arriving at an agreement which will be of call upon the hon. member for Michael. great benefit to telephone subscribers. As regards the first part of the question, subscribers to Mr. Cannan: I ask the Chief Minister, sir: the Isle of Man telephone network will be able to take advantage of the new package of tariffs proposed by Manx Have reporters from the Mail on Sunday or Daily Telecom with effect from 30th May 1994. It can be seen Mail contacted you with regard to the recent actions of the from the published announcement Manx Telecom have Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry? made that in the vast majority of cases the charge on the Manx Telecom customer is less than that on the customers The Speaker: Again I call upon the Chief Minister to of British Telecom. reply. To answer the second part of the question, it should be noted that the price cap regulation of British Telecom is to Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I spoke to a reporter from enable competition to grow within the United Kingdom the Mail on Sunday who contacted me on Wednesday 23rd and is not related to British Telecom's profitability. I can March. The purpose of the reporter's call was to discuss assure this House that Manx Telecom continue to comply the removal of the sea lion pup from the Wildlife Park and with the conditions of their licence and that telephone who had authority for making decisions within the subscribers on the Isle of Man will be able to use the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. Our telephone network which is the most modern available and conversation, which was entirely amicable and I think at the right price. constructive, did not feature in the subsequent press reports so presumably was not material to the story which the Mr. Delaney: A number of short supplementaries, Mr. newspaper wished to present. Speaker. Will the Chief Minister agree with me that the

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Actions — Meeting Between Mr. Walkden and Chief Minister — Question by Dr. Mann Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Actions — Newspaper Reporters — Question by Mr. Cannan Telephone Charges — Reductions — Question by Mr. Delaney K378 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

British Government, regardless of his answer to the second of those discussions I have to say that not all the proposals part of the question, has in its contract and its licence a by Manx Telecom have been agreed to. They have been price regulation which is RPIX which controls through debated and argued about but we now have an agreed their equivalent of the Communications Commission the package of proposals which will come into effect in May. price of telephone charges in Britain and the profitability So there has been in fact a delay of a month due to the of the company? negotiations taking place. Secondly, could the Chief Minister indicate why it is I do not think there has been any suggestion of that the Manx people once again are going to be backdating. I would have thought that that was almost an shortchanged on this as the British consumer of the parent impossible situation to come to terms with and again I can company has had two months already virtually, by the time say that Manx Telecom are abiding by the conditions of we bring in our reduced charges, of their reduced charges? their licence, and I think we need to be clear about that. I Why can this not be backdated? cannot confirm the situation the hon. member referred to And a third supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may ask - on page something or other of the agreement that was could the Chief Minister indicate to me why it was in the offered to the Isle of Man in 1987. I just have not got the original submission of this company for the licence and ability at this stage to do that. the sole franchise of this monopoly that they stated on page 22A, 'reductions in real costs made possible through Mr. Quine: Can the Chief Minister confirm, sir, that improved efficiency and technological advance would be the telecommunications commission in January 1993 shared by customers in the form of lower real prices.'? As requested details of interconnect arrangements between BT these prices now have been in for two months, why is it and Manx Telecom and that to date that information has that Manx consumers have not had the opportunity to have not been provided, and, secondly, would he agree that this these price reductions? information concerning interconnect charges is important to ensure that no unfair cross-subsidy has taken place Mr. Walker: I think firstly, Mr. Speaker, we have to between BT and Manx Telecom which adversely affects accept that British Telecom are not responsible for the Isle of Man subscribers, and, thirdly, as to the amounts providing the Isle of Man with a telephone service. It is paid between BT and Manx Telecom for delivery of calls Manx Telecom. They have an agreement with the Isle of on an equitable basis? So could he confirm that this Man Government which was agreed prior to 1987, which information has not been made available and could he came into effect in 1987. If we want British Telecom to confirm the implications of it not being available? supply this Isle of Man with its telephone services, then that licence we have with Manx Telecom has to be Mr. Walker: I understand, Mr. Speaker, that abrogated in some way and we have to make an interconnector details were requested by the arrangement with British Telecom. That would have been Communications Commission. I have to say I am not aware an arrangement that would have been acceptable if the hon. whether or not that information came out during the member had felt it was acceptable back in the 1980s. It discussion with the company or not over the last few would have been possible to construe it, I suppose. I have months but certainly that was an issue that was raised. I to say I think the Isle of Man is well served with Manx am aware of that. Telecom and I do think that this was an opportunity that I also understand the point the hon. member makes about we had and that we took quite properly for the Isle of Man whether or not there was any unfair cross-subsidy, and I to do its own thing and to get its own service. can only conclude that now an agreement has been reached I have no doubt for any commodity from time to time over the charge proposed by Manx Telecom, that in fact is there will be instances of lesser charges in the United not the case and the Communications Commission are Kingdom than the Isle of Man and questions asked why. satisfied, and, yes, I am sure that in broad terms the Manx Completely natural, not anything new. It has happened Telecom licence calls on Manx Telecom to provide for before, it will happen again. Isle of Man subscribers an equitable arrangement to that As far as the first supplementary of the hon. member in the United Kingdom. In fact I know that that is in fact Mr. Delaney who suggested that there was some situation the terms of the licence and that also has been taken into within British Telecom's agreement that Oftel can look at account by the Communications Commission. about capping the price, he is absolutely right. I do not deny that at all. It is more, though, to do with the insurance, Mr. Delaney: Would the Chief Minister not agree with that there is a means for other people to compete, rather me that Manx Telecom is a wholly-owned subsidiary and than just about the profitability of British Telecom. That that two shares have been issued by the parent company was the point that I tried to make. For the information of British Telecom, and therefore, apart from the name, it is hon. members, there is a similar condition, condition 20, British Telecom, that these two shares are held outside the in our own agreement with Manx Telecom which allows Isle of Man in Europe and Holland, I believe, and would similar discussion to take place. he not agree with me that Manx Telecom, according to the As I understand it, there was a proposal from Manx figures researched by me after a question on 22nd of last Telecom last December to alter their charges which would month in this House, is the most successful subsidiary of take effect from about April of this year. Those charges the parent company British Telecom and made four times have been under discussion, as I said, between Manx as much profit as the parent company, the equivalent of £7 Telecom and the Communications Commission. As a result million, and therefore the half million pounds proposed is

Telephone Charges — Reductions — Question by Mr. Delaney HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K379

little to re-compensate the Manx consumers for The Speaker: Thank you. Now, hon. members, that overcharging in the past years? concludes the first nine items on our Agenda Paper.

Mr. Walker: I make it clear, sir, that I do not accept the hon. member's suggestion of overcharging in the past MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES years. I think that has not been proven and I certainly do AND FORESTRY — MOTION OF NO not go along with the comment made by the hon. member. CONFIDENCE — DEBATE COMMENCED I certainly agree with him that Manx Telecom is a wholly-owned subsidiary of British Telecom. Of course it The Speaker: The hon. member for Glenfaba has is. Everybody was aware of that situation when the licence caught my eye. was granted back in the middle 1980s. We were aware of the situation. Mr. Gilbey: Yes, Mr. Speaker, could I raise a point of The way the company accommodates itself and where order? As all hon. members know, at the end of our Agendas the company accommodates itself is a matter for the it says 'Unless the House otherwise determines, the above company. I have to say that, Mr. Speaker, and as far as I business will be considered in the order shown.' I would am aware Manx Telecom have provided for this Isle of like to move that we alter the order today to deal with item Man a good service in the past and I am convinced they 15 now, before item 10. My reasons for this are quite will so continue to do until the end of the licence agreement. simple. It is a very important item and the first time in my experience in 111/2 years that such an item has come before Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, then, will the Chief Minister this hon. House and I believe it would be most unfortunate not agree with me in the first part that contrary to what he if members were dealing with it right at the end of the day stated in his answer to me, an indication that the Isle of when they were perhaps tired after other business and when Man company was separate from British Telecom, because there might not be proper time to deal with it properly. I it is totally controlled in its shares by British Telecom it is also feel that, in fairness to the hon. member who is the virtually British Telecom? subject of this motion, it is unfair for him to be sitting here all day in suspense before it is debated and therefore I Mr. Walker: The hon. member asked me if I was aware would like to move that we alter the order of business so that Manx Telecom was a wholly-owned subsidiary of that item number 15 is dealt with now before item number British Telecom, sir, and I responded 'Yes.' 10 and the other items, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move:

The Speaker: Hon. members, that brings verbal That under Standing Order 37(2) the following question time to an end. We have dealt with five of the motion be taken next. nine questions and I am going to ask each of the hon. members who posed the four questions that have not yet Mr. Duggan: Mr. Speaker, I rise to second, sir. been answered as to their wishes. First of all if I could turn to the hon. member for Ayre - I think you will be aware of The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Does any hon. the options, sir - would you like me to indicate to the House member wish to speak to this motion? If not, I will put the as to how you wish your question to be dealt with? motion to the House, that the order in which the Agenda is to be considered be changed in that item 15 be considered Mr. Quine: I would wish, sir, to carry this question before item 10. Will all those in favour please say aye; to over to the next sitting of the House for oral answer. the contrary say no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Accordingly, in the light of that decision, I call upon the The Speaker: Thank you. I now turn to the hon. hon. member for Garff to move what was item number 15. member for Michael and ask him the same question. Dr. Mann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move: Mr. Cannan: I wish my question to remain on the order paper for next week, sir. That this House has no confidence in the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. I turn to the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr. Delaney, and ask the I move this resolution after considerable thought and same question. concern both for the standing of this House but also for the standing of this Government in and outside this Island Mr. Delaney: I request that my question be placed on and in the well-being of the agricultural industry of this the next sitting of this House, Mr. Speaker. Island. After my return to this House after the bye-election in The Speaker: Thank you, and again I finally call upon October 1990 I served in the Department of Agriculture the hon. member for Douglas East in respect of question for 10 months prior to the last general election in 1991. number 9. During that time I was responsible for the Wildlife Park under the minister and was aware of the difficulties that Mr. Delaney: Ditto, Mr. Speaker. existed and the complaints that had been made concerning

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K380 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 the running of the park. After some months of argument I Agricultural Marketing Acts of 1934 as amended. finally got agreement to an independent veterinary expert To have had any chance of real success that report should experienced in animal wildlife and zoo standards to visit have been commissioned by the FMA. The FMA should the Island and deal with the specific issues within his have selected the consultants and the report should have competence. been made to the Fatstock Marketing Association. By the Mr. Bill Jordan, Chairman of the Care for the Wild, insistence by the minister in choosing the consultant at, as who is also a veterinary surgeon and previous wildlife it is rumoured, several thousand pounds more cost than officer of the RSPCA visited the Wildlife Park on 24th the alternative and by insisting on the report coming to June 1991. He reported to us in writing at the beginning of him it became his report and not the report of the FMA July 1991. His first impressions were of its wonderful and any action that followed appeared to be him forcing situation and the uniqueness of the bog areas and nature the recommendations upon the association. walks that were associated with it. He was strongly A lot has been made of this report which was supplied supportive of its future, and so am I, and in general he to all of us at the end of last year. By implication it was to found the standards of animal care satisfactory. However, be compared with the successful report on the milk he recommended that the sea lions and the penguins should marketing society made by the same consultants, and be moved to a zoo or wildlife park that had the necessary obviously this was the motivation of the minister. But there standards of accommodation, as the existing pools were are dangerous differences between the two. The Milk too small and the cost of enlarging them would be too great. Marketing Association report was made to the association He verbally offered to help in finding potential alternative with a closely argued business plan and balance sheet to- accommodation. be the basis of an application for grant and loan support He discussed his findings with the staff and the from the Department of Industry. It was dealing with a committee members at length when on the Island. These commodity which was increasing in production, was were also discussed at the following meeting and also the largely unsubsidised and was only to be exported in a cost of alternatives. The matter was finally brought to the processed form. All the producers were therefore locked departmental meeting and a decision made that the sea into the system together. That was a success helped at the lion should be moved, but to achieve that at that time time of course by a marked upturn in the price of cheese. required the authority of a new Department ofAgriculture. But that is exactly the opposite of the fatstock situation. The general election followed. A new minister was The great danger with the present situation is that the appointed who, I seem to remember in fairly wide publicity, minister, with his pugilistic and self-centred approach much visited the park and declared that it was in a terrible state like the proverbial bull in a china shop, is forcing the but he would be putting things right. How hollow was that recommendations of his report on the Fatstock Marketing claim, for none of the recommendations of that report have, Association as the price of reducing the rent levels of the as far as I know, ever been implemented and none of the new meat plant. alternatives have either. If they had, recent events would The consultants were not asked to report on the proposed not have taken place even if, as has been claimed, the working of the new meat plant or how its recommendations female may have been pregnant at the time. could be linked in with the proposed new plant. They did During the same period the department, in response to themselves make some observations but they were not strong representations from the fatstock industry and itself asked to in their terms of reference. Its recommendations being aware of the changing demands of the European were concerned with the working of that association in Community directives, agreed to support the construction the present abbatoir. There was, as has been said, no of a new meat plant. This would ensure the acceptance of business plan or balance sheet. The reason given was the Manx product at the highest EC standard. The minister, because there was no known Government policy at the that is the previous minister, negotiated the construction time. Six months have now passed. There is still no of the smallest viable unit to meet those standards in Government policy and no business plan, none has been conjunction with the Meat and Livestock Commission in announced, none has been placed before Tynwald for the United Kingdom and with the Fatstock Marketing debate and certainly none has been approved since the Association on the Island. Those proposals were put to report has been in the hands of all of the hon. members of Tynwald Court and approved. It was established that the this House. new plant would be ready in 1994. There was at the time a So let us look at some of the additional costs general agreement with the fatstock marketing association recommended by that report. Just taking the proposals for that a report on the management structure and working additional administration alone, that is the staffing practices would be necessary before the new plant was recommendations, the costs would rise by an estimated operational. Why then do we now have an industry that £200,000-plus per annum. This would be the equivalent apparently is in disarray? Why have we now an industry of a 20 per cent increase in operating costs or an additional that is exporting its stock to quite deliberately avoid the £8 per unit cost, a cost that would be spread between the present meat plant let alone the new one? producer and the butcher and of course, by implication, A year later the present minister commissioned a report the consumer. But if we add to these the other costs of the that looked in some detail at the affairs of the fatstock proposals that would be necessary to increase the marketing association. I presume that he had the consent throughput to viable levels, and this is the key of course, of the Fatstock Marketing Association for this action, for the costs of the measures to increase the throughput to in my view he was exceeding his powers under the viable levels, in the opinion of the report we are looking at

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K381

- it is more difficult to estimate this - but something like excitement was compounded by the organised naming of £300,000 to £400,000 a year. this pup by schoolchildren as Orry. That naming, that factor Now, obviously these costs have got to be balanced, alone, ensured that the future of that animal would be under but so far that has not been done. But all of these proposed constant question by members of the public. additional costs are assumed before the additional rental There appears to have been no serious attempt to try to charges that are going to be made for the new meat plant. create new facilities, even by going o ut for public The mass of producers who will be penalised by other subscription during the months that this pup was accepted recommendations anyway are now ignoring the present by its parents, only that it should eventually go. plant even before the new one is open and, as has already When parental rejection was threatened this pup had to been seen, there is a dramatic fall whichever way you look be weaned from the mother and on 8th November 1993 a at it just during the last three months alone. gentleman called Malcolm Walkden received a call from If I can quote Mr. Robinson of course who had a vast the Manager of the Wildlife Park asking if he would be experience of fatstock marketing in the Isle of Man, 'With prepared to try to wean Orry the sea lion pup. This, it is regard to the recommendations falling within the authority claimed, has not been successfully done before. Mr. of the Association, it is for the Association and the Walkden before he agreed wanted certain conditions, that producers to decide themselves what is the right course of it should be on trial, that is it would be a trial of his action to take... It is up to them to decide what to accept, management, and under Government veterinary what to reject, and what to modify. They should of course supervision. He should be accompanied by his keeper in take into account any views expressed by the Department transit and would have to be returned if his condition of Agriculture, but they should not allow themselves to be deteriorated. The department would only be responsible bounced into decisions which they are convinced are for the actual expenses and he was not going to charge for against the interests of the industry and the producers. It his work. He also sought privacy as long as possible to aid would be most unfortunate, and improper, if the this difficult task. The Manager of the Wildlife Park Department of Agriculture endeavoured to compel the confirmed these conditions had been agreed by the Association to adopt recommendations and procedures department and it was agreed further that Orry be which they know to be wrong, and in respect of which any transported to Mr. Walkden on 9th November 1993. losses incurred would fall upon the producer' and, I might Government vets approved the facility and regime t hree add, the consumer. It is my view that this is taking place in days later. The contact with the Government vets continued the present negotiations and has already led to one on almost a daily basis from 12th to the 16th. On the 16th resignation from the five-man executive committee of the a seal was admitted to the sanctuary run by Mr. Walkden association and has certainly led to the resignation or but the seal was adequately isolated with the full approval leaving of one of the senior officials and that, certainly as of Government vets. far as the resignation of the member of the executive It seemed that to begin with the minister was unaware committee of the association, due to political interference. that Orry had been transferred to Mr. Walkden but when The producers themselves obviously suspect what is he did, questions started to be raised. Between Christmas happening. If that is the case the minister will preside over and New Year people started to come to see the other seals the self-destruction of organised fatstock marketing in the and, on seeing Orry, expressed an interest in where he was Isle of Man, even if he obtains some temporary agreement going. They expressed concern about his intended sale. on the rental of the new meat plant, and I am beginning to On 3rd January 1994 Mr. Walkden went to see the minister think that is what he wants. himself about Orry's future. The reason for this visit was A new formula to take into account the undertakings of quite simply to express a concern regarding the ultimate previous Tynwald resolutions relating to the agricultural homing of this animal. He did not obtain any change in industry and the study of the support given by member the arrangements. states of the Community to their own industries is I became aware at that stage of the public concern for necessary, but unfortunately, on his own admission, the the future disposal of this pup. I wrote to the minister myself minister does not know what they are. expressing the view that at least the department should In the Isle of Man Examiner of Tuesday, 17th December obtain a contract that included approval of the ultimate 1991 immediately after the creation of this new purchaser from the dealer. I knew that the department had Government, the new Minister of Agriculture was previously used Ravensden without complaint, but this described as a member who can be known for being quite particular animal was vulnerable. It was vulnerable to abuse aggressive. That may be acceptable when he is pursuing a by unscrupulous showmen. I was shocked to receive a policy originating in this or another place with our full departmental letter which was open that was largely an support, but at this time he is operating on his own without attack on Mr. Walkden who myself I had only met once either. two years previously. The minister refused my suggestion. However, it is his attitude to problems which to some In the meantime the minister had intervened in the extent he cannot understand that has resulted in the recent agreed travel arrangements on Tuesday, 11th January, appalling episode of ministerial behaviour. The birth and apparently in anger at the actions of Mr. Walkden. Mr. survival of a Patagonian sea lion pup in the Wildlife Park Walkden then went to see the Chief Minister to seek help, was greeted with some degree of local excitement. The as he felt his position had been compromised and as far as fact that it should never have happened if our departmental I am aware he asked the Chief Minister to intervene, but I decision had been implemented was overlooked. The accept that the Chief Minister, in his answer just earlier,

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K382 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 denies that. Walkden has continued and I think there is enough evidence Following the publicity that surrounded this issue many now to see that at least this man is still being harassed, and organisations started to comb the United Kingdom and that, in a democratic society, is totally unacceptable and beyond to find an acceptable alternative to the departmental should be unacceptable by everyone of us in whatever arrangements and allow some security for his future care. position we occupy. The whole episode has been described Colchester Zoo was identified as one but they could not kindly as an unfortunate mistake that could happen to raise the sale price asked by the department. anybody. It is not an unfortunate mistake, it was a deliberate At this point Mr. Walkden himself offered to buy the mistake, and I put to you that there has been a misuse of animal at the same price and transport him to Colchester ministerial power for personal ends and in so doing the for safekeeping. The only area of contention that I can minister has damaged the reputation of this Island and its find was that Orry had to be retained in the ownership of Government but most of all its people. I beg to move the the department until his arrival in Colchester. This was to resolution standing in my name. satisfy the Dangerous Wild Animals Act in the United Kingdom. This was refused by the minister for two reasons Mr. Cannan: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my as far as I can establish, one (1) that Colchester had not remarks. agreed to accept him and, secondly, that it would not be a permanent solution. But, as can be seen from the fax that I The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. think has been circulated to members, that fax proves that to be false. Orry finally left the Island on 8th February this Mr. Duggan: Mr. Speaker, I think Mr. Corrin the year. minister - it is Corrin's folly literally, this whole episode - The evidence suggests that in this whole episode the and his department have not done their homework minister acted in spite in his relationship with Mr. Walkden. whatsoever, but on the other hand how many members of It has been said since that the owner of Ravensden had this House have made mistakes in the past? We have all offered the minister a choice of contracts but the minister made mistakes, hon. members, and with hindsight I know had only wanted to be rid of the animal. The transaction John Corrin well. He would not have let that sea lion go to between the Isle of Man Government and Ravensden was the zoo if he knew it was going to be sold elsewhere. I do of course perfectly legally correct. I think, though, one know that. could say that it was highly insensitive. But this Orry was As for Dr. Mann going on about the meat plant, if hon. now out of the way. It had gone. members will turn back to the Tynwald debate when Mr. The minister was able to indulge in a little verbal Corrin moved this in Tynwald, I was the member actually embroidery in his answers to questions in this House. I who got up and questioned Mr. Corrin at that time and I quote: 'it was confirmed to me that Orry had travelled well asked him would it ever pay, what about the animals being and is now settled in his new home with a sea lion of his sold on the farmyard being exported across for higher own age at the Wildlife Park south of Bordeaux.' This is a prices? And Mr. Corrin replied back in Tynwald, he said complete fabrication. As far as I know, there is no wildlife to all the hon. members here, that it would never ever pay park south of Bordeaux anyway. but we had to meet EEC regulations et cetera and he said He then, in answer to a supplementary question, said the meat plant would never pay. So the minister was very that Patagonian sea lions do not respond to training to clear there but all hon. members, it was unanimous, they perform unnatural animal acts, hence there was a lack of all supported Mr. Corrin including myself. So we cannot attraction and demand to purchase and keep these really blame the minister. Patagonian sea lions for that purpose, and it is obviously But going back to the sea lion, if Mr. Corrin had known the opposite that is the case. what the future held for the sea lion he would never have However, everyone connected with this case was highly let it leave the Island. suspicious and an extensive search was launched to find the true location of this animal. The national press in the The Speaker: Does any other hon. member wish to United Kingdom became interested, in association with speak to the motion or shall I ask the mover to reply? The the local press here, and finally after weeks and weeks of hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Corrin. detective work finally the truth emerged. The truth was damaging in itself in a Sunday newspaper of enormous Mr. Corrin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will address circulation. But the minister's quoted comments increase this hon. House without any rancour or vindictiveness. I the insensitivity and the damage. He is quoted, 'It is none shall reply to this motion with facts and statements that of your business. Stop bothering me.' support what I say. But first could I say this. When I heard While this animal still remains in his present on the radio Dr. Mann stating that he intended to place a circumstances the damage to this Island will continue. The motion of a very serious nature concerning my name on minister is now, by transfer of powers, able to separate the Agenda for today's meeting of the House of Keys I himself from the Wildlife Park, and I look forward to that immediately responded by saying that that course of action Wildlife Park doing well in its new departmental was a member's privilege and that I would respond fully responsibility, but he is not and cannot separate himself at that time in this House. Until then I would not be making from the damage that is occurring. any further comment on certain issues on which Dr. Mann I have thought very seriously about my next statement was making allegations. I have kept my word. and my next statement is that the persecution of Mr. In the calm of this hon. House I would therefore like to Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced • HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K383

state that notwithstanding the due diligence exercised in pup has caused me, and indeed every member of my the decision-making process leading up to the relocating department, personal grief and sorrow. Examination of the of the young bull sea lion to Northamptonshire and the documentation recording the deliberations and actions confidence that was placed in that organisation, albeit now taken, based upon the facts known to us at that time, leads known to be grossly misplaced. I, as Minister of the us and ultimately me to say that due diligence was Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, would exercised. like to express my regret and heartfelt sorrow that the sea Reviewing the situation I commence on 22nd July 1991 lion out of our jurisdiction did not reach a new when the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, was a member establishment which could be accepted by the majority of of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry people as ideal or, at a minimum, satisfactory. Mr. Speaker, with delegated responsibility for the Curraghs Wildlife Chief Minister, hon. members and every person on this Park. Divisional committee records show that on 22nd July Island, I, as the minister in charge, offer an unqualified 1991 Dr. Mann chaired a meeting when Mr. Bill Jordan's apology. report dated 1st July 1991 - it is appendix 1 in your papers This incident has caused me, members of my family, - was considered. Mr. Jordan visited the curragh park on my department colleague His Honour Arthur Luft MLC, 24th June 1991. and members of my staff the greatest upset. No such vision One matter of concern to Mr. Jordan, there were others, of what has happened ever crossed our minds and yet in but one matter of concern to Mr. Jordan was the display of spite of our discussions on this subject over many weeks it the sea lions. The report recommended disposal of the two did happen. I acknowledge the distress caused. I can only sea lions. Mr. Pinder and Mr. James, Mr. Pinder being the say thank you to the many, many people who even in the Director of the Wildlife Park and Mr. James the Manager, midst of their own personal upset conveyed messages of disagreed with the recommendation and cited that it was understanding that even with the best will in the world one of the most popular exhibits at the park. Mr. Pinder things can and sometimes do go drastically wrong and indicated that there were only six other United Kingdom especially so in the sensitive area of society 's establishments that kept sea lions, none of which were responsibilities. seeking additional stock. Dr. Mann noted these comments Mr. Speaker, I have one other thing of importance to and advised that the report would be referred to the next say, with your permission. On the 1.00 p.m. Manx Radio departmental meeting for consideration, that is the news on Saturday 16th April 1994 a recorded interview departmental meeting. between Mr. Geoff Cannell and Mr. Malcolm Walkden was Now, I ask members to note that in view of the fact that broadcast. Mr. Walkden said, and I quote now from a home- the bull sea lion pup was born early in July 1992 it was at made verbatim report because we were not able to get a this time that mating was taking place. I have even been copy from Manx Radio. It went as follows: 'Well, the man blamed for the fact that that copulation took place, and I who bought him from the Isle of Man Government, Mr. have to say that in fact of course, as was on the wireless Pape, told me just over a week ago that he had offered Mr. this morning, that female sea lion could be pregnant again. Corrin two options. One was that basically, if he could, he Who knows? As the manager said, you only have three or would have to tell Mr. Corrin where the animal was placed. four days' notice that might show that she is expecting, The other option was basically just sold him to him and and, as her history shows, apparently she has had two or that was the end of it. And he has told me that basically three, not only one, but she is, shall we say, a good breeder Mr. Corrin had said to him, "Just get rid of the thing." from that point of view and as the male and female are in There we go. That's what Mr. Pape told me.' Mr. Speaker, this pool, that situation could be with us right today. what was alleged in that statement was an utter lie and On 7th August 1991 there was a departmental meeting, without any foundation or truth whatsoever. I never was and that is appendix 3, page 1, in your documentation, and or ever have been in negotiations with Mr. Pape or indeed if I could refer to it members will see that the Jordan Report with the sale of any animal or bird from the curraghs park. is included, the letter from the chief veterinary officer My officers confirm, and you will see it in the submission quoting the 'Mammals of the World' and then to appendix I am not putting around to the members, that they never 3.1. Present was the minister, Mr. North at the time, Mrs. entered into any negotiations concerning options. Hannan, Dr. Mann, Mr. Warren, the chief executive, Mr. On hearing this newscast, that is the Saturday 1.00 p.m., Fargher, the finance officer, Mr. Pollard who is the chief I immediately rang the radio newsroom and protested. I forestry officer who is in charge of that division and Mr. then rang Manx Radio Chairman, Mr. Alan Wilcocks, at Pinder, the director of wildlife and it states, records, the his home and informed him of this gross lie. Mr. Wilcocks Jordan Report: 'Copies of Mr. Jordan's report regarding said that he had just come in, that is, just come into the the Wildlife Park was noted. Dr. Mann outlined its contents house, he had not heard the news but he would look into and discussion took place over its recommendations and it. I regret that the following day Sunday's Mannin Line' conclusions including the rehousing of the lynx and parrots. presenter David Callister repeated this totally untrue It was agreed to dispose of the penguins and sea lions', recording. This matter is being referred to a third party and then it goes on to a reference about the North American and I would therefore caution against any further comment paddock which I think members will agree is not of concern outside of this chamber. to us here. I now come to the main part of my address and I shall On 30th August there was a divisional committee take the sea lion situation first. meeting and the chairman was Dr. Mann. He reported on The outcome of our efforts to relocate the male sea lion the departmental meeting on 7th August 1991. Subsequent • Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K384 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 thereto a paper prepared by the manager was considered meeting the minutes record that the cost of improving the by committee. The disposal of the two sea lions would sea lion pool was assessed at £100,000 by the Department proceed with a possible sale to a continental destination of Local Government and the Environment. Reference was for £5,000 plus travel and incidental costs. That is on the made that the sea lion pup might be sold to Penscynor Zoo departmental divisional meeting on 30th August, chaired in Wales after weaning. by Dr. Mann. On 28th May 1993 the cost of improvements to the sea On 4th September, appendix 3, page 2, at the lion pool was still being estimated. On 25th June 1993 departmental meeting 'Doctor Mann referred to the and 16th July 1993, reference to the cost of the pool, of a previous decision of the Department to dispose of the refurbishment programme again. On 20th August, sealions and penguins. Doctor Mann advised that there reference to the cost of pool and a reference to the young was an opportunity to sell the two sealions to a continental sea lion, Orry: 'still to be weaned'. destination for £5,000 plus travel and incidental costs.' On 8th September 1993 at a departmental meeting - There was reference to the purchase of six penguins and appendix 3, page 3 - a paper prepared by the director of the idea was if they got the sea lions elsewhere, then they wildlife was considered and discussed at length. 'Upon would buy penguins and use that pool for that purpose. In request the Architects section of the Department of Local reference to the purchase of six penguins the minister Mr. Government and the Environment had provided costings North expressed the view that both sea lions should be for £76-95,000 improvements to the sea lion pool, £76- disposed of as originally agreed. He left the final decision 95,000 including £15-20,000 to install a new filtration up to the divisional advisory committee, and that is there. plant.' I understand there is some kind of filtration system So the departmental meeting on 4th September, again in that is not working because the practice is to pull the the Jordan Report, the minute Doctor Mann referred to plug and fill it up with water about three times a week. I the previous decision of the Department to dispose of the understand that is the procedure. 'The Director indicated sealions...'. I have inked it out. 'Doctor Mann advised that that the Friends of the Wildlife Park have expressed an there was an opportunity to sell the two sealions to a interest in arranging some level of sponsorship to assist in continental destination for £5,000 plus travel and other the cost of completing the work. Reference was made to incidental costs.' So going to the Continent in the minds Treasury guidelines on private sponsorship of Government of the officers was certainly not something that was at that projects. It was noted that funds had to be banked prior to time ever preached to them by the chairman of the relevant work commencing on a project. The Minister stated that committee. he was not' - that was me now - 'prepared to support a I continue, Mr. Speaker. On 23rd September divisional sponsorship scheme where Department funding for the committee meeting, 'reason for the disposal of the sea lions project had not been agreed or guaranteed.' I served on was reiterated, as imperative that they be transferred to the Public Accounts Committee which looked into the better facilities', that is, better than the Wildlife Park at Bounty affair. I learnt the lesson there and I hope that we the curragh. 'Disposal confirmed as being in the hands of all learn lessons as we go through life. 'Discussion ensued a UK dealer with the Continent as possible destination. over the fundamental question of whether the Wildlife Park Park staff requested to make further enquiries on possible continued to keep and display sea lions bearing in mind sale outlets.' That is in the divisional meeting. the projected costs of pool improvements and the high November 1991 was the general election and in January ongoing costs of feeding these animals. Reference was 1992 I effectively came into office. Of course the made to the young sea lion pup and the importance of appointments were just before but then one took up one's selling the animal once it was weaned. It was noted that a duty immediately afterwards. So that brings us up to that United Kingdom dealer had agreed to purchase the pup point. for £2,000. The Director argued that the sea lions were the I visited the Wildlife Park and was not pleased with the most popular attraction and as a wetland conservation site maintenance of the park. The unacceptable conditions of it was important to display wetland animals. In addition the sea lions was not mentioned to me. I am on record that Mr. Pinder stated that whilst young sea lions were valuable, I never said there was anything wrong with the state of the it was difficult to sell or otherwise dispose of adult sea animals in terms of their condition and so on, it was the lions.' At that meeting the finance officer also made state of the place in terms of weeds, in terms of wooden reference to Treasury guidelines in finding additional cages and so on and so forth, and indeed, as I said in savings in 1994-95 budgets, and that was on 8th September Tynwald Court a week ago, one must give credit to the 1993. employees on the ground: within their capabilities they On 17th September at the divisional committee meeting have done a lot of work and that is why the park looked there was further reference to the cost of pool reasonable when His Excellency opened it there about a refurbishments. On 6th October 1993 departmental month ago now. meeting, appendix 3, page 4, hon. members, please follow In August on the minutes the birth of a sea lion pup was reference to the sea lion pool, and 'The Chief Forestry recorded because once the pup was in being, well then Officer advised that a meeting had been arranged with the clearly there were responsibilities and, as it was well Wildlife Park Director and Mr. P. Halliwell, architect - that known, apart from the publicity, the animal was reared is the LGE - 'to investigate whether there was any scope with its mother and indeed in the pool with its father, as to reduce the proposed costings of £76-95,000 for only right and proper. improvements to the sea lion pool. Mr. Fargher' - that is Now, on 25th January 1993 at the divisional committee the finance officer - 'indicated that all Departments were

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K385

operating under budgetary constraints and that there was what happens in real life. 'Discussion ensued over the no likelihood of additional funding being made available disposal of the young sealion, Orry. The animal had been to enable installation of a filtration system and pool transferred to a temporary pool in the south of the Island improvements. The Minister stated that he would not to enable it to be weaned from its mother. Arrangements permit all the repairs and maintenance budget to be used had been completed to sell the sealion to a Bedfordshire on the sea lion pool to the detriment of other maintenance dealer.' And may I explain at this point that Bedfordshire requirements at the Park. Discussion ensued over the need creeping in, it is in fact Northamptonshire but the address for a contingency plan if the condition of the pool of Ravensden is Bedford Road in Meesden I think it is, or deteriorated to such an extent that it could not hold the an area there, and it is Bedford Road and that is how the three sealions. It was agreed to request Mr. Pinder to Bedfordshire comes in, but it is in fact in Northamptonshire. consider options on the disposal of the sealions under such `The Minister referred to concerns voiced over the ultimate circumstances including their sale and advise the destination of the animal.' This was on 12th January. Now, Department accordingly.' And that was on 6th October. this is important because of allegations that have been made I now turn to 13th October - the problem of weaning a that I personally did not care about the fate of this animal, young sea lion was noted. If sale was the only option, it and it is in the minutes of 12th January - 'The Minister would be difficult to find a UK buyer and a buyer in Europe referred to concerns voiced over the ultimate destination was more likely. of the animal. Mr. Pollard advised that both the Director On 5th November 1993, departmental, appendix 3, page and Manager had commented upon the dealer's good 5, the notice is as follows: 'Sea lion pool. The Chief reputation and that neither had any reservations about the Forestry Officer reported upon a meeting with Mr. P. sealion's eventual permanent home. It was agreed that the Halliwell, architect, to explore the possibility of a reduced disposal through the Bedfordshire dealer proceed scheme for improvements to the sea lion pool. It would be forthwith.' I did raise at departmental level, it is in the in the New Year before Mr. Halliwell was in a position to minutes on 12th January: 'The Minister referred to forward any proposals. The Minister enquired' - and that concerns voiced over the ultimate destination of the was me - 'as to contingency plans in the event of the pool animal.' Now, Mr. Pollard, the senior officer, replied, he failing. The Director advised that as a temporary measure `advised that both the Director and Manager had the sea lions could be put in one of the adjacent ponds. commented upon the dealer's good reputation and that The Minister stated that this would be unacceptable and neither had any reservations about the sealion's eventual insisted that provisional arrangements be put in place for permanent home.' Now, if one wanted to say, well, Mr. the sale of the three sea lions should the need arise. Mr. Pollard is the chief forestry officer and he had not picked Pinder indicated that it was extremely unlikely to find a up the story correctly or whatever, Mr. Pinder was sitting buyer for the two mature sea lions. The Minister stated there at that meeting, as the minutes record. that in such circumstances it was wrong to encourage Now, I am not apportioning blame to the officers breeding if the Park was unable to sustain the upkeep of because I have said that their evidence and their decision- the off-spring. In addition the Minister directed that the making that was given to us at all times over many, many bulk of the maintenance repair budget should not be spent weeks was consistent and in good faith and I believe that on the sea lion pool to the detriment of the Park's they exercised all due diligence and genuine belief that maintenance requirements. Mr. Pinder advised that the advice that they were tendering was correct, and we arrangements had been made to sell the young sea lion to are all wiser after the event about the Continent and indeed a UK dealer, once it was weaned, for £2,000 (not including other places, which I will demonstrate to you in this travel costs). He agreed to confirm these arrangements in submission, hon. members. writing before the next Department meeting.' I honestly believe that the officers were genuine in the With reference if the pool was to fail, to putting the sea advice tendered, and I can say, and I know of my colleague lions in a pond adjacent, the chief veterinary officer tells ministers and indeed members who are working, serving me that the male sea lion weighs about half a tonne now. on departments and who have duties and responsibilities Could you imagine half a tonne with that strength in the allocated to them, that we do listen to the advice that mud of a pond there? Well, there we are, Mr. Speaker, that professional officers are tendering to us, and I make that is how the situation is. plain. In fact I think it would be absolutely wrong and I then turn to appendix 3, 6, that is the next one, and arrogant for anyone to say that they disregard the advice this is on 12th January 1994: 'Wildlife Park stock of professional officers. Who are we collectively to say acquisition policy. The Minister clarified the Department's that we are expert in all the duties that we accept policy in respect of stock acquisitions at the Wildlife Park', responsibility for? So I did, and I stress that again, I asked and that was because concern was expressed that more the very question about concerns voiced. animals and birds were being purchased. It was kind of Now that was the officers' reply. I do not throw that something that was driving itself. 'It was noted that the back in their faces now because I reiterate again - Wildlife Park could obtain stock replacements subject to throughout the whole decision-making process, and Divisional Committee approval. The Minister indicated remember that my departmental colleague, His Honour that he wanted the Park to adopt a more active role in selling Arthur Luft, was chairing these divisional meetings, he is surplus stock as opposed to disposal on breeding loan.' in charge, a person of standing and you may have read his The park has a mixture of selling, buying, breeding loan, letter, hon. members, at the beginning of this submission, giving away and one or two things are put down. That is you may have read his view, and he is a man with a

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K386 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 background and experience that can see through if advice Strong comments have been made that (a) the animals tendered is wavering, inconsistent or whatever. So that is should only have been sold under certain conditions of genuinely what the officers thought and that was the advice sale, and that under no circumstances should any animal that they tendered be allowed to be sold on the Continent. This line of thinking As far as the allegation made by the hon. member for appears not to be a pattern of thought the officers have Garff, Dr. Mann, that I interfered or stopped any movement been alerted to in the past. Certainly they received no such in January, it is totally wrong. First of all I was told - in signals from the course of action agreed by the hon. fact the sea lion was down within a hundred yards of my member for Garff, Dr. Mann, when he was chairman of home for five days before I knew about it - I am told that the divisional committee and indeed as it is recorded also Mr. Pinder was away at the time and that it was Mr. James on the department minutes. Dr. Mann advised that there who made the arrangements and the sea lion was put down was an opportunity to sell the two sea lions to a continental there. After that time the chief veterinary officer expressed destination for £5,000-plus travel and other incidental costs. concern to me that he was not aware of it and had he known Notwithstanding that, we are all wise with hindsight. he would not have allowed it because it was putting what Purchasing from and selling to Ravensden appears to have was essentially a disease-free animal from a disease-free been a normal business transaction. Indeed, as I have said area in contact with animals, diseased animals, that had before, the father of Orry the sea lion was actually been brought in from the sea. But it happened, the animal purchased by Ravensden. In Mr. Pinder 's faxed letter dated was put down there and there was no point in whipping it 21st April, appendix 4, 4.1, he states that Penscynor away then because it had been there and the mix had been Wildlife Park sold their female Patagonian sea lion through made as such. So it was left there. Ravensden. That was first listed - and by 'listed', I take it Now, the timing of actually leaving - the officers were listed in Ravensden manual of what they have for sale - in reporting to me what they hoped to do but the actual May 1993, and that is on 4.1. It had been hoped, Mr. Pinder decision of when it went was a matter of discussion says, that in fact Orry could have been sold to Penscynor between the officers. Always it was the chief veterinary but in the event Penscynor in fact decided to change over officer who gave the okay in the end, and in fact there was and get rid of Patagonian sea lions. a considerable delay, I do not know whether it was 10 days I may say at this point with reference to Patagonian sea or two weeks or whatever, in what date they thought it lions performing tricks or not performing them, that advice was going to go because it developed an infection, and I was tendered me by the chief veterinary officer. Now, I can remember that before, when it was hoped to go on a am to say that he does not know anything about animals? particular day, it was only subject to the veterinary officer's That is the advice that was tendered to me. Now, I could receiving the tests of swabs back to say that it was in fact say that when the park was opened a month ago and the clear from infection, and that is true. official party toured the park we did it in reverse order this I would then say that on 18th February on the divisional year, and the first stop down the main concourse, turn left, minutes the director reported upon the recent transfer of was the sea lions, and at that time - and of course it was Orry to Ravensden, Bedfordshire. It is noted that the sea arranged by the keepers - a keeper was there with a whole lion would ultimately be transferred to a marine park in big bucket of fish and the two sea lions, the adults there, southern France. That is actually on the minutes, absolutely shall we say they performed, in other words they knew it in line with the information that I was given in preparing was feeding time and they did all sorts of tricks within myself for a question. Without looking at the papers I think their restricted area, jumping in and jumping out, catching it was 22nd February, was it? The member who asked the fish, and so on and so forth. Now, is that doing circus tricks question could verify that. That is the one and only time or mistreating them or whatever? I do not know, but that that I have ever spoken to Mr. Pape. I do not know him was what we witnessed even the other day there. personally. The two professional officers do. That is the Now, I will refer but I will not labour again because I only time I have spoken to him and he would not tell me referred to it, what was said on Manx Radio on the one who he had sold it on to. Indeed of course he had no o'clock news. I will carry on past that because I have business that he should. But he said that it had travelled already dealt with it. well. Now, as far as travelling from the Isle of Man to I will now turn to submission 4.2, the copy of a faxed Northampton, that is certainly the case. He said it had letter from Ravensden Zoo Limited dated 8th November travelled well and it was now in a wildlife park of whatever 1993, which clearly confirms the purchase of the sea lion nature, south of Bordeaux. That same view was expressed for £2,000. That confirmation was signed by Barry Pape to my chief executive, Mr. Warren, he made an independent and hon. members will see there that is a photo-copy of call, and indeed Mr. Pinder says that that was the answer that. It says, Tor the attention of Mr. P. James, Director' he got to his enquiries too. and is dated 8th November 1993: 'We refer to our telephone Hon. members will notice that at no time did the conversation and confirm we will purchase your young professional officers express reservations or nervousness male sea lion at £2000 delivered. Regards, Barry Pape.' about the transactions or arrangements. At all times they This question of negotiation, me negotiating or even the had been consistent in their views, not only to me, but also officers negotiating, at such a recent date or whatever with at the Forestry Department meetings chaired by His Honour options - as you will read in 4.1, Mr. Pinder says - it is just Arthur Luft MLC. I therefore accept the sincerity of the higher up than this Ravensden Zoo confirmation document advice they tendered to me. With hindsight it may be flawed - 'We can confirm that the conversation alleged between but that is the advice they tendered to me. Ravensden and the Minister rejecting an offer of a say in

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K387

Orry's final destination in favour of a speedy sale did not 19 years in Chester Zoo. He knew the owner of the take place between either of us and Ravensden.' Now, he Ravensden Zoo personally as an honourable man. It was has confirmed that I said as far as I was concerned he is from the Ravensden Zoo that the father of the young sealion saying that did not take place between either of us; the was purchased. `us' he is referring to is himself and Mr. James. Mr. Pinder `In the course of a year many animals and birds are then goes on to say, 'Finally, Mr. Pape said that he was sold or lent on a breeding loan by the Wild Life Park and lied to by the purchaser about Orry's destination and tried many are brought in. The Officers of the Wild Life Park to phone him once concern as to his whereabouts arose negotiated the sale of the sealion in the ordinary course. but was unable to contact him.' That is what Mr. Pinder The Manager of the Wild Life Park has in answer to my says in this written letter here. I have dealt with the copy questions, assured me on two occasions that throughout of that fax when in fact the transaction was confirmed and his long experience he had never heard of conditions being that was right back there on 8th November 1993. attached to the sale of an animal as to its ultimate I have said that my one and only conversation with Mr. destination. Indeed I have looked at the past Minutes over Pape was prior to 21st February 1994 making enquiry as the last few years and this question has not been raised in to the sea lion's whereabouts in preparation for answering connection with the transfer of an animal. For example the House of Keys question on 22nd February. Enquiry when Mr. North was the Minister and Dr. Mann was was also made by other officers and the same reply was Chairman of the Forestry, Amenity and Lands Advisory received. At no time have I entered into any negotiations Committee, at a Departmental Meeting on the 4th with third parties to purchase, sell or swap any creature at September 1991 Dr. Mann advised that there was an the Curraghs Wildlife Park. That area of responsibility is opportunity to sell the two sealions to a continental clearly the work of officers, subject to the sanction of the destination for £5000 plus travel and other incidental costs. appropriate committee from time to time. There was no mention in these minutes of any condition Colchester Zoo has been cited as the epitome of being imposed relating to the resale of the sealions. respectability where this animal should have been placed. `Whereas a negative restrictive covenant may with The officers did not enjoin with this praise. I understand appropriate words be annexed to an area of land on its that their fears were based upon the condition of the pool sale, I know of no way in which such a condition be there and that the sea lion would be in the same pool as annexed to an animal on its sale so as to bind future owners. common grey seals and that the sea lion would develop a `Even if such a condition was expressed to be imposed fixation for common seals and in future reject its own at the time of sale, it would not be possible, in my view, to species. Now, that is the view of professional officers. enforce effectively such a condition against a subsequent Presumably professional officers in this field are allowed purchaser from the person to whom the animal was sold. to hold such views. It would be even more difficult in practice if the animal With veterinary officer clearance the sea lion was was moved to the continent. successfully moved to Ravensden in Northamptonshire. It `Long after the sale to Ravensden Zoo had been arranged would appear that at this point the trust and confidence of I understand that Mr. Walkden offered to purchase the our officers in Mr. Pape and the Ravensden establishment sealion. If you had attempted to cancel the sale to was abused. May I refer hon. members to His Honour Ravensden Zoo it seems to me that the owner of the Zoo Arthur Luft's letter dated 22nd April 1992. I have got could have instituted proceedings for breach of contract appendix 5, paragraph 2, but in fact I think I moved it to and sought specific performance of the contract. the front of the submission; it is on the pink page. This is `In these circumstances I fail to perceive how it can be dated 22nd April, the address is Leyton, Victoria Road, alleged that you have acted so improperly or negligently Douglas, Isle of Man, and it is addressed to the Hon. John as to justify the moving of a vote of no confidence.' Corrin MHK, Terendak, Surby, Port Erin, Isle of Man: Now, I will stop at that point because then His Honour `Dear Minister, I feel constrained to write to you goes on to speak about the Fatstock Marketing Association. following the extreme criticism and even, vilification that That is relevant to the point I am dealing with and that has been published concerning you as the Minister for letter of course, as we all know, is from a retired Deemster Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, following the young of the Isle of Man. sealion Orry having been found in a travelling circus in I will now return to my submission, Mr. Speaker. I have conditions completely unsatisfactory. The implied included a home made transcript of the Manx Radio live suggestion is that you are personally to blame for the animal broadcast, and the quote came from on the Saturday and now living in totally unacceptable conditions. what was broadcast in totality on the Sunday morning's Unfortunately, completely untrue statements have been Mannin Line'. I do bitterly regret that my representations made publicly to support this view. were not noted on the Saturday, either by Mr. Cannell or `Having chaired the Forestry, Amenity and Lands indeed by the Chairman of Manx Radio. Advisory Committee from June 1993, I know that neither Now, we are all wiser after the event and on Tuesday you nor anyone in the Department would have at all wished 22nd March 1994 an article in the United Kingdom The or done anything knowingly, to have the sealion consigned Independent newspaper caught my eye and and the to a travelling circus. The Staff at the Wild Life Park have headline was "Animals in zoos 'being driven made by displayed a caring attitude to the animals in their charge. captivity' " and it referred to a report that had just been The Manager of the Wild Life Park for example has a long published. I asked the research officer in central experience in looking after wild animals and worked for government if she would obtain a copy of that report for • Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K388 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 me. She did, and I have included a copy of that report and been cited in the Mail on Sunday itself, that very place. also a copy of this Animal Aid organisation which is based Then if we look at the Animal Aid Campaign Report in Kent. They sent, also enclosed a copy of one sheet - 1993, appendix 7A, down in the right-hand corner it reads, well, actually three sheets because you can buy books and `Colchester Zoo. In August we were contacted by two ex- videos from them - but the front sheet of the campaign zookeepers protesting about conditions at Colchester Zoo. report for 1993. Now, as I say, we are all wiser after the Whilst they made several complaints, most of the focus event and all sorts of things now come to your notice in a fell upon Bruno the bear, whose constant head-swinging situation like this. Now, I did say, and it has been widely and other disturbing behaviour had led to growing concern. put over the radio and so on and discussed, that Colchester At the same time Bruno had been locked away in a pen Zoo was the place where the animal should have gone and away from public view for more than six hours a day.' yet the officers were not supporting that view. This was in 1993, and it goes on, 'We invited The Mail on When I received a copy of this report, which is wide- Sunday to join us on a tour of the zoo and a full-page article ranging, of a visit that this investigating team made in the appeared on 22nd August. This was followed by extensive United Kingdom, they comment on many zoos and, coverage on local TV, radio and newspapers. Some surprise, surprise, if you look at page 2 there - and I have improvements do appear to have been forthcoming. No inked it out in yellow - you will see Colchester Zoo. They animals have been released from their cages and pens, but were referring to elephants and it goes on, 'It is much the we do understand that a larger pen has now been assembled same sorry tale at Colchester Zoo. On seeing our film, for Bruno the bear.' animal psychologist Roger Mugford described the housing There we are, Mr. Speaker, I have just about completed for two female African elephants, Tara and Zola, as "wholly full circle on the difficulty, shall we say, and what I can inappropriate". "Why keep a plains and forest dwelling only with hindsight now say it is a very big murky world elephant in a compound the size of a suburban garden?", that I was never aware of. Now, I do not know if any other he asked.' Under the column there, "Chimps, orang-utans member could stand up and say they knew all these things. & gorillas" - I have inked it out in yellow - they are referring Well, had they said them, I do not know. I would not make to chimps, orang-utans and gorillas and it says, 'And at such a charge. All I can say is that I did not know what Colchester Zoo', because they cite other places too, they was going on, and just to conclude this on the subject of say, 'And at Colchester the orang-utans are kept in yet the sea lion, could I draw members back to the report and another blatant example of a totally unstimulating and go through the conclusion in that report which I think is unsatisfactory enclosure.' Now, could I say warts and all something that every member of this hon. House, and must be now the truth. indeed Government itself and the people on this Island, Have a look under 'Gibbons & monkeys', hon. are going to have to think about very seriously. The members, and you will see that they say, and they are conclusion in this report, and I must give due credit that it referring to a zoo where there are gibbons and monkeys, is Animal Aid March 1994, the conclusion says, 'Our `Soon after our visit, we believe that the grieving male investigation proves categorically that many British zoos gibbon was sent off to Ravensden Zoo, a notorious holding/ are in a sorry state. There is probably nothing as healing centre from where animals are sold off to zoos all dramatically awful as the worst zoos of (say) Southern or over the world.' That is the truth. I never heard anything Eastern Europe, but they still present a general picture of like that from the officers at all. I am not so sure that they decay and misery. Financially, there are no longer enough hold that view, but here we are, when you look into people who want to visit zoos to keep them going, so something, it came to my notice, I happened to see that in without rich benefactors or new 'theme parks', they have The Independent, I asked for a copy of that report and you little possibility of ever affording the scale of improvements see that. But that is not the end of it because on the article necessary to provide even the most basically decent living on bears in this report they quote other zoos and then they quarters for their animals. As the cutbacks increase and say, 'Animal Aid has already highlighted' - and they refer the staff numbers are reduced, always it is the animals that to Outrage No 87, one of their pamphlets 'the plight of the suffer more. What can be done? Of course, in many cases, black bear at Colchester, Bruno, whose prolonged periods the real answer is for them to close. But then what would of head-swaying and other abnormal behaviour was happen to all the animals? Given that there are so few eventually exposed in The Mail on Sunday newspaper. At decent sanctuaries for wild animals around the world and last, he now has an improved pen, though it remains a small so many zoo animals, it has to be accepted that those few comfort.' zoos that have managed to build reasonably stimulating Could I just ask hon. members to turn over the page in environments for their animals are probably best kept open, the submission, Mr. Speaker, and you will see that I have but without being allowed to indulge in commercial printed out a letter that was in The Manx Independent, breeding programmes. This would still leave an enormous Friday 22nd April 1994. Please read the letter, I will not amount of zoo animals with no prospect of an improved read it out, and it was signed by Dominique Tropeano, quality of life. For these, the cruel truth is that, in some Managing Director, Colchester Zoo, Maldon Road, cases, the best option is to put them down as humanely Stanway, Essex, and read what he says. He also faxed a and quietly as is possible. Certainly this is a terrible message expressing similar views to Manx Radio, and Mr. suggestion, but probably far better than to perpetuate the David Callister read out that on the `Mannin Line' on ongoing suffering and misery of generation after generation Friday 22nd April 1994. There we are, you have got that of zoo animals. Of course zoos will protest about the reference to the wonders of Colchester Zoo and yet it has inhumanity of such an idea, but it is worth remembering Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced • HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K389

that culling animals to keep down the numbers is already was a disappointment, and I know that that invitation a routine part of their schedule. Animals that are considered carried the support of the agricultural community. too old, or young animals thought surplus to zoo The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, that is requirements are all packed off to slaughter whenever their GATT, and the European Union Common Agricultural owners see fit. Above all else, it is vital to stop the Policy, that is CAP, are having and will continue to have thoughtless breeding that is prevalent in the zoo world.' far-reaching repercussions on agriculture. As Manx Yet we have a male and a female and she could well be in agriculture produces more than the local market consumes, pup today. The probability is that she is. Now, there we it is imperative that we protect our ability to export into are, this is not a new thing, it has been going on for some the EU market not only in terms of manufacturing the time. So it gives me no pleasure to read that out, but I product, and that means a fully licensed meat plant, but think it is something that cannot be dismissed now. So also ensuring that the product is what the market wants that is my discourse on the sea lion. and thereby achieving the best financial return for the Now taking up a suggestion made on Manx Radio, producer and the Island's economy. To achieve this goal probably two weeks ago now - two weeks yesterday and to promote confidence in the farmer a wide range of actually - I had a meeting with my colleague His Honour skills are employed within my department. These skills Arthur Luft and the officers and we mandated the two, range from the ability of agricultural advisers and Mr. Pinder and Mr James, to work with those who felt that executive/administrative officers to generate and they could work with a view to retrieving the sea lion and/ implement support schemes across the range to the or indeed if it was with another, the other one too if that protection of animal health. was the case, to work to that end, not to walk around with For reasons of retirement several new officers have, a chequebook because Government does not do that, work during the past two years, joined the department. They that way, but if they could come back as soon as they could bring with them new energies and talents. I have purposely if that was possible, if there was any suggestion or encouraged them to review their areas of responsibilities proposition, then we would meet immediately to consider and effect change to reflect modern agriculture within the it. overall policy. Knockaloe is no longer an experimental I have also had a conversation with the Chief Minister farm it is an advisory centre. A limited number of carefully with a view that representation perhaps could be made to monitored trials are being, and in the future will be, the French Government (Members: Hear, hear.) to see if conducted on site, together with a greater use of the anything could be done. Now, how that could technically classroom. An increasing range of technical services to be done, it is not for a minister to go and deal with another agriculture will originate from Knockaloe via the Government, that is entirely through the Chief Minister's professional advisory officers and the field officers. purview and he is looking at that level. Amongst the many schemes my department administers So there I started off by apologising profusely and I are The Farm Improvement Scheme, Beef Cow Support have no hesitation in doing that. I would say, not to weaken Scheme, Hill Cow Support Scheme, Sheep Variable the apology in any way, shape or form, that the actions Premium Scheme 1982, Young Farmers' Assistance taken, the advice tendered was all done with due diligence Scheme, Land Purchase Scheme , The Cereal Area and yet it happened. It has hurt us, but it happened. Payments Scheme. Now, if I can now move on to agriculture. I did have a To try and speed things up again I must state the facts. review in respect of fishing and forestry, but to save time, I enclose a paper on the The Cereal Area Payments Scheme Mr. Speaker, what I would like to do, with your permission, because we have a slight disagreement over that, about a 5 is in fact to leave that to one side and leave that standing per cent disagreement of the totality of the scheme which on its own merits, but I think hon. members will accept was implemented with excellent co-operation, bearing in that in view of the grave comments made with regard to mind the stress and strain of what went on in the EC with agriculture I not only should have the privilege of this regard to this scheme. It was a credit to everyone. House to answer but indeed it is a duty to do so. We have a Food Support Scheme to the pig industry, a All agricultural matters are initially dealt with by myself Bird Replacement Scheme to the poultry industry, a Sire because there are two of us on the department. His Honour Grant Scheme, Artificial Insemination Service, The Manx Arthur Luft, he handles the forestry and does/did the Wool Clip Scheme. Wildlife Park and I handle fish and agriculture. I handle We have a Cereal Intervention Scheme. The department agriculture to the extent that at all the important meetings administrates entirely the purchase and ultimately the resale His Honour attends, as indeed the minutes will substantiate. of approximately, depending on the crop season, 7,000 tons He attends, which he freely does, and takes part in the of barley and participates in the scheme, encouraging discussion, so he has a wide appreciation of agriculture farmers to grow last season 800 tons or thereabouts of too. But I say that His Honour Arthur Luft MLC frequently milling quality wheat for Laxey mill, home-produced joins me at the major meetings with representatives. wheat for Laxey mill. A third political member at the department to assist in That is a quick insight into some of the major schemes agriculture would be an advantage and I have to say it was which I have the privilege to oversee. regretted that after the last general election the hon member Animal health - the chief veterinary officer and his staff for Ayre, Mr. Quine, I regret that he was unable to accept cover a wide range of duties and responsibilities too the invitation to serve on the department. It was made in numerous for me to record. However, new threats can and good faith but it was his decision not to accept, and that do emerge which require the utmost diligence, an example

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K390 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 being the BSE disease. Animal health and welfare is sludge. Let no-one be misled that disposing of sludge on receiving top priority and could I, hon. members, refer you agricultural land or forestry plantations will be an easy to appendix 8 and appendix 9. Now, I can remember that disposal option, and I am currently in co-operation with without talking to them, but I refer you to it because here the Department of Highways, Ports and Properties, my again, and this has been very cutting, to hear people on officers are examining those implications. Manx Radio talking about 'That John Corrin doesn't care.' I have outlined the work, expertise, professionalism and I can give evidence to you, Mr. Speaker, I was on two dedication to agriculture of many people and the occasions telephoned by farmers who were distressed that implication of cost to Government through the many the arrangements for picking up fallen animals, that is, support schemes. All the foregoing is wasted if at the end animals that they have had a mishap but nevertheless there of this production cycle the farm produce is not processed is no reason why they should not be put into the abattoir, into food in an efficient operation and marketed subject to being certified by a vet that it is permissible to professionally to ensure a maximum return on capital do that. I had two complaints and one was from a farmer employed. On the Isle of Man this task is performed on a about a cow he had found in a ditch at 11 o'clock at night collective basis under the authority of the Agricultural and by the time he had made arrangements and so on and Marketing Act 1934 as amended and constituted under that so forth and the lack of reaction by certain persons, it was Act is the Isle of Man Agricultural Marketing Society. midday before a wagon turned up to collect that animal Under section 4 the society is required to frame a scheme and the animal had died. In close time after that I had as respects any agricultural product where it appears to another distressing call from a farmer who said that a the department that it is necessary for subserving any forward steer beast had had an accident and broken a leg purposes of an order regulating sales of that product. Three and that the bone was showing through and it was four associations have been set up to handle agricultural hours before that animal was picked up. My immediate produce: the Isle of Man Milk Marketing Association, the action is as described in this documentation by the chief Isle of Man Fatstock Marketing Association, the Isle of veterinary officer. I immediately convened a meeting of Man Potato Marketing Association. representatives of every veterinary practice on this Island, The Milk Marketing Association activities reached a that was the invitation, some of them three or four vets, I crisis situation some four years ago. After receiving some only needed one, and I convened that and a small sub- excellent advice from the Department of Industry the committee was set up after discussion, under the chief Executive Committee of the Milk Marketing Association veterinary officer, to work out a procedure to eliminate themselves commissioned an in-depth report into their this terrible problem. That was done as the chief veterinary activities. Thereon they implemented the recommendations officer. Since then I have witnessed an animal who had of that report and the association has gone from strength had an accident being picked up within the hour. I have to strength. The association has recently commenced a £4 purposely witnessed that from a farm I was at where this million investment programme. happened and the system worked, and for anyone to say It concerned me to hear the hon. member for Garff that I do not care really is, I am afraid, going a step too far. lightly say that the price now paid to the Manx milk There are other things of course, there is the enforcement producer is something of luck, the new executive that was side of the veterinary services and the requirement now to recruited arising from that Ernst and Young Report. From have every bovine animal over three days of age tagged. his expertise and the team that he has built around him That has recently been rigorously enforced and is receiving and the advice and the strengthening of the executive now excellent co-operation from farmers. It is not new, it committee, the professional advice, I think it is rather should have been going on I think it was at least three regrettable that the hon. member for Garff refers to that as years ago, but I am afraid it was left to slide, it was tried, luck just because the cheese price hardened since then. attempted and so on and so forth. We have to implement The cheese price did harden, but I could equally say, like the law, the regulations. I say now that excellent co- all markets, the cheese price of recent times has operation is now being received by the farmers. considerably softened and yet the price is perhaps today Organophosphorous sheep dip - many people must have equal to and if not the highest price that Manx farmers are heard about that and now the concern that it can harm being paid per litre for their milk. That is a fact of life and mankind, the human race. It is referred to as 'OP dip'. To good luck to them, I say, because the product now is of a enable us to keep in line with UK regulations and to protect quality and he has opened up new outlets and the return the health of Manx farmers a field officer has attended a now to the Isle of Man, I warrant, is greater than ever. course at Lackham College, Wiltshire and training on the New money to the Isle of Man through marketing the Island will take place locally in due course. I understand produce produced here - surely that is what we are in that in the United Kingdom how it will be controlled is business for. I want to see when we see the Treasury that it will not be sold to persons unless they have a Minister on his annual review, I want to see that pie chart certificate to say that they are fit to handle the product. not with agriculture about that thick, I want to see it opened Now, in the first instance for the first year, I understand, up to its full potential. the system will be that one merely has to register and then Now, the Fatstock Marketing Association has presented after that is to give them time to actually do something a totally different picture. The present abattoir building is about it. We will follow that closely. owned by the DLGE and Government regulatory staff must Sewage disposal - a by-product of the IRIS scheme in be present at all times when the plant is operating. The the years to come will be a considerable tonnage of sewage licence to operate in terms of exporting products into the

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K391

EC is delegated to the department's chief veterinary officer, FMA because I had just come from the Department of Mr. Brian Cope, and Mr. Cope in turn deals with MAFF in Industry, been there five years. I have seen what up-to- the United Kingdom to uphold that licence. date management can do in terms of having a business Within three weeks of my appointment in January 1992 plan and policy in knowing where they are going and the chief veterinary officer came to see me in my office carrying that out, and indeed for those who were on the and closed the door. He was distressed and he confided in Department of Industry, even Dr. Mann who is on the me his worry about the state of the present abattoir and Department of Industry now, no Government support alone that it would not get a licence to operate after the 1st is given unless proper applications are made in terms of January 1993. Now, I was aware and some other people business plans and so on and so forth, scrutinised by the are aware that a comprehensive study was made of the appropriate accountants who work for the Department of operation up there by the Meat and Livestock Commission, Industry, Ernst and Young, and the validity of the gathering information in preparation for drawing up plans, application is reported at the departmental table by Ernst the size and so on of the present meat plant. I have a copy and Young and then the political decision to support or of that document here. But I do not wish to damage the whatever is made. That is the procedure. And I would say Isle of Man or that operation up there or the future, it is on that during this long recession in the United Kingdom, a threshold, of some of what is in that report. I please ask which of course affects here, the reason why Manx industry members not to press me; let it be. That was on my mind has withstood this recession so well - and credit must go and it was on the mind of the chief veterinary officer. At to the managers and the owners and everybody else that his invitation and with the permission of the staff of the run businesses who have kept their manpower in most cases Fatstock Marketing Association I immediately visited the intact; of course there have been some redundancies, the present plant up there and I witnessed myself what the defence industry and so on, it is true, but most places they chief veterinary officer was worried about. I said to the have kept their companies running and employees intact - chief veterinary officer, 'If you as chief veterinary officer is because of the discipline that has been part of the feature are saying to me that you are wanting political backing to of the Department of Industry for years, that procedure carry out your duties to ensure that by the 1st January 1993 has not changed, and I could see at an early stage what that plant remains open for business, then you have my was wrong with the Fatstock Marketing Association and full authority to do what you deem professionally it was on that basis that I suggested, as you will see in the necessary.' Now, there was a lot of pain, a lot of shouting, evidence presented further along in this submission, that but that was done. the idea that was put to the society in the first place at a Now, having the licence to operate after 1st January meeting, Isle of Man Agricultural Society, and then to the 1993, it was not going to be left to Christmas Eve to see if Fatstock Marketing Association. The society was not too that could be achieved. Early September it was well on, keen on doing anything, and that is another matter, but the but there were still some things to do, but well before Fatstock Marketing Association, and credit to them, they Christmas, in other words to give us time to put anything readily agreed but they asked that it should not be done right to ensure that we obtained that certificate to operate, for eight or nine months, as the minutes there record, so that was achieved. Now, there was a lot of pain, but I still that they could look and see how the Milk Marketing now put on record the co-operation of those who did co- Association was developing. I readily agreed to that operate. One must at all time give staff credit when the suggestion and in fact the reason I agreed is because you authority and their leadership is there to do, and that was cannot do a thing overnight like that: it takes time to achieved. organise. So it was a year before the accountants moved Now, where did we go from there at that point? Because in and made the investigation, the report of which every here was a new meat plant at a very advanced stage of member here received a copy. planning and there was a lot of concern that I was aware Now, in that report it made recommendations to be of before I was even appointed to this job in the farming addressed by the Fatstock Marketing Association, it made industry. Its knees were bended. Since then it has got down recommendations to be addressed by the Department of on one knee, the farming industry on this Island. Now, Agriculture, and then there were other suggestions to be was I going to preside over and leave it there? Not on your looked at and investigated. Now, some obviously are more life. Indeed I would refer members to the copy of Hansard important than others and the Fatstock Marketing that I have inserted in there. There we are, yes, it is at the Association, it is their job, their responsibility to look at beginning of the farming submission, the copy of Hansard their house and take notice of those recommendations, and where it records the January policy debate, 21st January they are doing that right now. 1992, three weeks, four weeks after my appointment, and It is our responsibility and the main one, because it is a the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine, made some very terrible problem on this Island, the farmers welcome our cogent and important observations on agriculture. It is support and grading scheme, but because the amount of there. And he asked me what I was going to do about it. money is so important to them, any one animal going down Two main things he put forward. One was that Government is very difficult for them to accept and the person who should put more finance into the industry and the other takes the upset, the blame for grading is the grading staff. was about the marketing side of it so that from this huge Now, there were proposals there of what should be done market for food that is there we get the maximum earnings. which I will not repeat. We could not go down that Even at that debate in my submission there you will find particular road, but what we have done, which I have that I suggested the possibility of an investigation into the announced, is we have, on a consultancy basis, recruited a • Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K392 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 person who was already amongst our midst, actually - the and to the future meat plant, and that is what we must Chairman of Consumer Affairs knows him well - Mr. Alec strive to do. Downie, the Regional Director of the Meat and Livestock May I also say that last night at 10 o'clock there was a Commission for Scotland. We have asked him to oversee, knock at the door and another letter was handed in. It says not as an employee, but oversee the grading operation. He Isle of Man Flockmasters Association and it is addressed was a grader himself, he has come right up through the to me, the Minister for Agriculture, no 'Dear John,' just ranks in the MLC. He is a man and he has got a PR side, the minister: 'Dear Mr. Corrin, Re Item 15, House of Keys he can speak to people no matter how difficult the Agenda, 26.4.94. circumstances, and he is a man of ability, and I introduced I wish to assure you that we do not associate ourselves him to the fanners when on one day it is reckoned that with the above mentioned motion. over 400 individuals went up to the new meat plant on an `We have no doubts concerning your commitment to open day we had to view the place. I introduced Mr. Manx agriculture and your willingness to fight for the same. Downie to them in groups with the suggestion of the work `Personally, I feel sure that this view is shared by the that he could do to assist in this area. That has been widely great majority of farmers who appreciate that your direct, welcomed by the farming community. Now, it is going to if somewhat abrasive approach, has achieved a great deal be a hard task but I am sure he will make headway there. for the industry at a time when many difficult and indeed For the rest of the report, referring to the Fatstock painful changes have been necessary.' And it is signed Marketing Association, that is their internal business to `Yours sincerely, Ellwood Parsons, Chairman, the Isle of address, except where some of their actions under the 1934 Man Flockmasters Association.' When you are in politics Act as amended we have a responsibility to address, and I and have all the hurly-burly, and everybody knows, whether have had sound legal advice onto where those areas are. it is Mr. Brown or Mr. North or the Chief Minister, you do So that was for them to address and indeed they are get knocked about from pillar to post. If you cannot stand addressing it, and arising from that there have been some that, do not be in politics, (Members: Hear, hear.) and implications, some accusations made which the hon. that applies to every member too because you are all member for Garff readily picked up in his haste to announce making decisions. (Mr. Kermode: Hear, hear.) It does not what action he would be taking against my name, and yet matter what post you hold, if you are in politics, you are that same accusation of political interference in the affair making decisions. No - one is God, no-one will get it all of the FMA has been repudiated by the Chairman of the right and there are times when you get it wrong, but just Fatstock Marketing Association, Mr. Arthur Radcliffe, occasionally it is a letter like this at a difficult time that I repudiated, not only publicly, broadcast on the wireless, will frame. I will, I will frame it, and I would like to put on but you will see in this submission, members, you will see record my appreciation of Arthur Radcliffe, senior member in the green page I have printed it out on, the letter. of the Manx farming community, and to Mr. Ellwood `Dear Minister, May I refer to my recent public Parsons for writing those letters. announcement' - this was 23rd April - 'regarding the Mr. Speaker, I could say more. This House has been comments made that there had been political interference very generous to me in listening to what I have had to say, in the affairs of the Fatstock Marketing Association. I wish but I believe, because I believe in the dignity of this House, to confirm to you that I do not accept these allegations. this House represents the people of the Isle of Man and I `As I stated, decisions are made for sound commercial believe in the dignity of the House and when such a serious reasons and the only outside influence we have taken into charge was laid against my name I did not say, 'No member consideration has been the Ernst & Young Report. has a right to make such a charge.' That is a freedom of a `Whilst there will always be differences of opinion member to put on the Agenda a motion as indeed was put. between the agricultural industry and any minister, I am It is the freedom of the member. But I think that it is only of the opinion that your record' - that is me - 'has been, in right and proper when such a serious charge is made that it most areas, a good one and I hope we can continue to work has to be absolutely, totally and fully refuted. That is what together to resolve the present difficulties facing the I have made. I started off by saying that my submission industry.' would not be with rancour or any other insults or anything Now, I do not expect any person to say that I am gilded like that. I hope hon. members will accept that the case I with gold, I do not expect any person to say that, but he have put before you on behalf of myself - I am the minister, says, 'I am of the opinion that your record has been, in no different from other people who are ministers: I am most areas, a good one'. That is a free statement from the responsible - but on behalf of the members on my Chairman of the Fatstock Marketing Association and it is department, on behalf of His Honour Arthur Luft and the interesting, it goes on to say, 'and I hope we can continue officers who work so hard in the department in all the areas to work together to resolve the present difficulties facing that we have responsibility for I think it is only right and the industry.' There are difficulties facing the Manx proper that I should have made the case that I have made industry, big difficulties, and that is the very reason why today. It has been a very difficult time as far as the sea lion this restructuring of the FMA is going on, to combat a is concerned. I have offered a sincere and public apology changed environment in the sense that it is now, because that it ever happened. All I can say is that our deliberation of prices that could be obtained for live animals across, was done with due diligence and yet it still happened. I viable to export live, in some cases, not all, in some cases. hope that if that animal, or indeed if it is with another animal However, in a small community with a small number of or three animals, is being mistreated, they can be retrieved animals every one number is important to our meat plant if that is possible. I know not how. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced • HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K393

As far as agriculture is concerned, there is now more for the future to keep the mill going and supply the internal confidence around, things are looking up. The Manx requirements of the Island, and I think that there are those Government, and you are all part of, shall we say, the who would join with me in congratulating those employees Government when you sit in Tynwald, you all supported a of the forestry department who maintain our glens and considerable sum of money in the last two years in support remember the due praise they received in the Year of the of agriculture under this three-year package, trying to keep Railways in respect of the Groudle Glen (Mr. Kermode: this reasonably level playing field between the Manx Hear, hear.) That is a fact. farmers who compete in the same market, many hundreds Many things, just like any department, and I would not of thousands of pounds, and there is more to come because for one minute want to detract from any department's work, it is a three-year package, not just one-off payments: this all I can say is that many things go on in the department. will be continuing as long as this policy goes on. Occasionally something inevitably will go wrong. That is As I say, there are a lot of technical innovations going the minister 's responsibility, but if it is blatant on and so on and so forth and right now we are on the eve irresponsibility, then that is a different matter, but if due of opening a £5V2 million/£6 million, because some of the diligence has been exercised, then I am afraid that is as far cost goes into the roads infrastructure which the as we can go. Department of Industry will use too. That large investment Hon. members, thank you, Mr. Speaker, thank you very is sitting there now ready. As soon as, and that could be much for hearing me out. today, the Fatstock Marketing Association has signed the lease agreement, which I know has been agreed but it is at Mr. Groves: Mr. Speaker, we all learn early in life, I the Attorney-General's department, and my colleague the suppose, that there are two sides to every coin, and our job minister Mr. North is nodding assent, as soon as that is is to understand both sides and at the end of that try to signed, then my chief executive will signal to the company make a balanced judgement. The Chief Minister often tells that has installed the equipment - the internal equipment us in here that we must seek a balance and we have all is made in Belgium and they require three weeks' notice heard him say that often. Sometimes of course you cannot to come over, check their equipment that it is working and find a balance and you either win or you lose. But that is give instructions to the staff and so on and so forth, that is life. Nothing is ever equal or always bal anced. part of the package - as soon as we know that, then that is I am not sure yet whether I have no confidence in the the signal to go. I hope that with the changes that are being minister or whether my confidence in him politically has implemented arising from the Ernst and Young Report merely just been severely shaken over recent weeks. Manx agriculture, first of all we will see a tailing off of Certainly I come to this debate without my mind made up live exports - this is now through the new challenge - a and with mixed views and mixed feelings also. I understand tailing off of live exports and then hopefully we will see that there has never been a debate of this nature, of no the throughput numbers increase locally. confidence in a minister - Farming is a long-term investment. It takes between three to four years before you make the investment, get Mr. Kermode: Yes, there has. the animal, breed and the finished product. Damage has been done. There has been a serious run-down of recent Mr. Groves: - since the ministerial system came in. years. Agriculture was nearly on its back. Perhaps there has. But it is rather more, is it not, than just The milk now has been arrested, the situation. I hope the sad affair of Orry the sea lion? I have had conversations and I am confident that with the new measures taken and with the Minister for Agriculture privately on a number of the new management that is coming the Fatstock Marketing occasions about the likely avenues for agriculture, for Association situation will improve from now on. But fisheries, for forestry, for horticulture to go in the future in damage has been done and it will take three or four years terms of economic growth and my conversations with him before you see it climb back up. That is something we make it quite clear that he has a very keen interest and a have to accept. The main thing is as long as we have turned strong desire to see this current area of his responsibility that corner and we can go on up. succeed. That cannot be denied from the conversations I Over and above that, as I say, the fishery men are have had with him. The question before us at the moment reasonably satisfied in a manner no different - a lot of is whether he has the confidence of those in the industry, dialogue goes on with them - no different than other and I presume by that we are talking about both those within members do business with every part of the community, the department and those who work on the land and sail and it is not all plain sailing. on the seas. That there is a need for bridge-building, for The forestry side is estate management principally. One partnership, for tough negotiation in these areas must be day the increasing planting is going to cease, which I know without doubt, and none of that will happen without there is of concern, that new virgin land is being broken up, but being mutual respect. that is part of a programme and the end is in sight. It was My reading of the letters from the President of the Manx slowed down for reasons of 50 years' time if it was not National Farmers Union and the Chairman of the FMA already at one time, it was slowed down, but that is in clearly are that they are supportive, but I do get the sight which will be of comfort to those who feel that there impression that there is within them a certain element of is enough planting been done on this Island. From then on `Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.' Now, when it has reached that point then it will be a matter of perhaps other sectors of the economy feel the same way maintaining internally, there should be sufficient timber about all of us. (Mr. Kermode: Hear, hear.) After all

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Commenced K394 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 politicians are not the most popular slices of bread in life our Island's competitors because this Island has to compete and of course we should not be over-sensitive to that. But every day of its life and we have to see that we give a is that the best that Government can do? To my mind the confidence and a strength and a climate to those who live handling of the Orry affair has done nothing to improve here to compete every single day, and this affair and the the perception of this hon. House, the Government of this headlines and even this debate today are not doing a great Island or the Island itself. In fact apart from a few questions deal in that regard and I hope perhaps that this debate on in this hon. House on this matter, it seems as if the minister this resolution may be the beginnings of an improvement has conducted the majority of the affair in the spotlight of in this area. I believe that we in this hon. House can do the media. He constantly referred or referred on a number better and we should and, frankly, I believe the Government of occasions in his speech this morning to Manx Radio, can do better and it should. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. and to me he appears to have been on it a very long time on this affair. The Speaker: Hon. members, I think this would be an I accept, and I am sure all hon. members do, the genuine appropriate time to adjourn and the adjournment will be apology which the minister has made to this hon. House until half past two. this morning over the Orry issue. He cannot be accused of deliberate deceit, cruelty, dishonesty or lack of care. I have The House adjourned at 12.59 p.m. no doubt about that in my mind. But I do believe it is quite wrong that it has taken all this time and this resolution to bring that apology to this hon. House. MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES Politics by its very nature involves personalities and it AND FORESTRY — MOTION OF NO seems to me that over this affair the minister's political CONFIDENCE — DEBATE CONCLUDED antenna has rather resembled a bent coathanger rather than — MOTION DEFEATED an aerial tuned to the sensitivities of the Island. I find it unedifying personally for Government to appear to be The Speaker: Now, hon. members, we resume the carried out on Manx Radio. The spotlight of the Mannin debate on the motion detailed at item 15 on our Agenda Line' should not attract ministers like moths. It is not a Paper and I call upon the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. light that one should bask in, and I personally have found Kniveton. it quite unacceptable as far as you, minister, are concerned over the Orry affair. Politically - and perhaps it will come Mr. Kniveton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do promise to me one day, although I hope not - members that I will not be speaking as long as some members did this morning - Mr. Kermode: So do I! Mr. Kermode: Learning already! Mr. Groves: - it is often over the smallest pebbles that the hardest political fall takes place. The hon. Edwina Curry Mr. Kniveton: found that out and broke a lot of eggs. We are still here debating a motion of no confidence in the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Mr. Delaney: She wrote a lousy book as well! Forestry. In other words, we are asking ourselves, should that minister be removed from his position which, of Mrs. Hannan: Have to read it? course, is his main job in life and thereupon hangs his future position in this Government? Mr. Kermode: She got scrambled! As a new member of this House - and this is only my third attendance here - it has been interesting for me to Mr. Groves: It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that it is all follow closely the procedure of the House, the various too easy, swept up in the trappings of Government, for tactics employed and the different ways in which members politicians on occasions to fail to understand that there is a go about their duties. If I may say, so certainly life here is difference between culpability and responsibility. Being completely different from that in the comparative shelter responsible does not mean that one is to blame or even of the board room of the Onchan District Commissioners. aware of what may or may not have happened. Ignorance (Members: Hear, hear.) (Laughter) I am trying to take, as or mistakes are not a defence against responsibility. This I always said I would, the middle-of-the-road, impartial morning the Chaplain to this hon. House led us in prayer attitude to subjects raised and, in this case, this vote of for the peoples of South Africa and those who have sought confidence or otherwise on account of the demise of Orry to govern there. He asked that they be aware of the sobering the sea lion, the cost and future operations of the meat awe and burden of their responsibilities. He might have plant and other agricultural matters. also added the word 'trust'. Firstly, in the case of Orry I do have a tremendous The hon. member for Douglas South is right when he amount of sympathy with the various animal support says that anyone can make mistakes. Any one of us can societies in their various aims, and to me also it does seem and may well do so in the future. But when we do our very sad that this rather special sea lion pup has finished behaviour and the manner in which we address the matter up badly accommodated in a travelling animal show in will be how we are also judged by the people of this Island, Europe. I say again that I am very saddened with this very by our political colleagues and, equally importantly, by unhappy situation. Having said that, I have to ask, who is

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K395 really responsible? Is it just one man, simply the minister, Mr. Kniveton (Members: Hear, hear.) on what I believe is or can we rightfully believe that others were involved by his maiden speech. nature of the advice that they had given? Mr. Speaker, I understand the causes from which this Provided the cost is not too great, I am prepared to back motion has arisen, causes which have spilled over into areas a further attempt by the department to bring back Orry to of public emotion and which perhaps serve only to cloud the UK or to have him placed in an approved wildlife park the issue, and there has been a considerable wherever, and I do applaud the minister that he has openly misunderstanding of the ways of the media and those issues admitted this morning that he is going to make some which are close to the hearts of most people, but perhaps attempt to correct the position. they have little relevance to the economy of the Island or Now, as far as the meat plant is concerned and other the narrow but important confines of agriculture, forestry agricultural matters, it may well be that the minister has and fisheries and their proper direction. involved himself in subjects not necessarily relevant to I stand to ask hon. members to look dispassionately at his department, but I did find it rather intriguing that Mr. the motion. I am not aware of any protest from the fishing Costain, Vice-Chairman of the Fatstock Marketing, speaks industry; indeed, I am not closely involved with the out in strong criticism of the minister and yet virtually at spokesman from that sector, but no recent or additional the same time, Mr. Radcliffe, the chairman of that same cause of dissension has been brought to my attention. The organisation, points out that, whilst he is 'not always industry is one of great tradition and considerable hardship necessarily in agreement' - and I do quote his words - 'with and risk, but I am not aware that the minister's interest has the minister', he does feel for the most part the minister been other than supportive. carries out his duties satisfactorily. So in a football cup Equally so, my acquaintance with forestry is only in final situation that is a one all draw, no decision, and yet terms of the facts in terms of accountancy which I derive this morning we have come into the affray the letter from from Government sources, but I have no direct intimation the Flockmaster Association which I believe indeed does that all is not well in that sector. assist the situation and for us perhaps to make our minds Turning to agriculture, as hon. members are aware, I up. have questioned the projections of the new meat plant and As far as the meat plant itself is concerned - and again its probable impact for taxpayers and not just the farming I do speak as a new member here - I feel confident in my community, but the responsibility is one for Government own mind that the decision to build to within the required both in its initiation and its future performance, and the EC regulations and the money to be spent on it and all the current minister nevertheless has to prove its viability, and detailed requirements would not rest solely with Mr. Corrin, this is a matter which must give him great concern and who is the present minister. I do stand to be corrected when which he must justify because, in spite of reassuring noises I say that the principles must have been approved and plans of confidence, there are many questions of great financial set in motion before his time. That, of course, I believe implication which still remain unanswered. was determined again this morning. I do not consider that With very few but sterling supporters, I opposed the he can be held fully responsible because any proposals he transfer of function of the Wildlife Park, not that the has made were surely closely vetted initially by the Department of Tourism, Leisure and Transport may or may Treasury, the Council of Ministers, other consultants and not be the appropriate agency for its future direction, but of course received the majority decision of Tynwald. Up because I believe it is the responsibility of Government to until fairly recently I was an employer employing many define an identity and a strategy before changing the label. times throughout the year anything up to 60 people. I did Now, the Department of Agriculture had not devised such so for nearly 27 years and during that time, from memory, a strategy and it is quite clear that this is not a sudden I only, if I may use the expression, fired or dismissed three omission, although perhaps to the minister's credit it has employees; in other words, I expressed no confidence in only recently become quite apparent, but it is not an area those employees. However, on numerous occasions to fill us full of enthusiasm in the light of a total lack of throughout that long period that I was in business there planning. were times when I suppose I could have paid off others But this motion has aspects of perception and but, on listening to reasoned explanations and especially personalities which may not be directly related to the proper acknowledgement of acceptance that wrong decisions had conduct of a department's affairs. Matters of transient been made, I was always of the opinion that in the end I perception, matters of tactics of presentation or aspects of might very well be sorry if I took final and drastic action. mannerisms can divert the attention from the vital issues I believe, in the case of the minister today with whom, and responsibilities. The ministerial role of the hon. incidentally, I have had little contact, that assuming he member is complicated with Manx and UK and European acknowledges - and he has done so and very humbly so - legal, commercial and supply intricacies in what is a that mistakes have been made and that lessons have been minority section of the economy. I would therefore ask learned, as I have carefully considered the matter, I will hon. members to view this motion objectively, and when I not be supporting the motion of no confidence in the say 'objectively' I mean in terms of the ministerial remit Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry this and responsibility for only three things, agriculture, afternoon. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. fisheries and forestry, not the record in public relations, however important it is, not sea mammals, however close Mr. Corlett: Mr. Speaker, may I first take this to our emotions they are, and not, least of all, any questions opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Onchan, of personality except as they may involve the proper and

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K396 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 professional relationship with members of staff. had the thing about the animal welfare where we have had In short, hon. members, I surmise that this motion may a situation where we got mad cow disease and I am not have arisen from a wide admixture of influences, not all saying it is this particular minister's direct fault, but isn't of which should be relevant to the duties of the minister; it a great shame when we look at this industry and how the and secondly I believe that any decision to be taken after missed opportunities that have been there, where we have viewing the facts coldly and dispassionately should be the been following blindly the UK and trying to produce a responsibility of the Chief Minister and indeed the hon. product that already cannot be sold in the UK because of member himself, and for these reasons I believe that we over-production and now we see that we have a situation must view this unique motion with complete objectivity with the likes of the mad cow disease where British beef and therefore I oppose it. is to be banned from Germany and more likely banned from the continent before long? The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Does any other What upsets me about the whole spectre of agriculture hon. member wish to speak? The hon. member for Onchan is the missed opportunities as far as this is concerned. I followed by the hon. member for Rushen, the Chief think that it is all right people saying how they are deeply Minister. concerned about animal welfare, but when we were trying to get people prosecuted when fish were jumping out of Mr. Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, what concerns me the water because the amount of pollution that was in the today about this debate is the impression that it is purely river... but then the question has to be asked. Would this about the handling of a sea lion, and I personally feel that minister be any different than any of the other ministers that would not be sufficient criticism in order to sack a when it comes to that situation? Minister of Agriculture, in my opinion. I think that the point is that what many people are concerned about is the Mr. Kermode: Certainly not. fact that there are other issues they are concerned about within agriculture today, and that is what people are Mr. Karran: I think it is something that needs to be concerned about. I have to say that I am concerned in this asked as far as this is concerned. House that there seems to be a policy of not lifting one's So I am not debating this issue on the Orry the sea lion head above the curb as far as this debate is concerned up situation, I am debating it on a wider front and I am a little to now, and that saddens me somewhat because I think we bit disappointed with the original proposal from the hon. should debate these issues openly and frankly in my mover. I thought that it could have had more body and opinion, and think at the moment there has been a lot of more substance in. fancy step-work as far as what some members really feel I feel today that the agricultural industry is going in the are the facts of the issue and why they are not doing that, wrong direction. I believe today that we need to have a and as I go or► I will mention something that I would like complete fresh approach, not this attitude like the previous to do. speaker, the hon. member for Douglas North, on about the We have heard the hon. minister go on about not being Wildlife Park - 'Well, we will throw it off to another gilded in gold. Well, with the present policy with agriculture department of Government and change the label; instead I would be very surprised to see any of the different of DAFF put tourism over the label' instead of looking societies daring to say anything at the moment, because if what is inside the can and really looking at the real issues. there is anything that is going to be gilded with gold it is What I would like today to say and one of the things I the way that regarding the agricultural industry at the would not be supporting is if this debate is a no confidence present time we are throwing money at the problems within vote in the minister purely over the Orry the sea lion affair; this industry instead of looking at the fundamental then I would be certainly voting for the minister because I problems that this industry has. I mean, we went back to think that would be insufficient grounds, but I do think the meat plant and I would be the first one to say that the that agriculture on this Island is in a mess. I think the minister is not responsible for the meat plant. I am not problem with agriculture on this Island is that the real issues denying that he is not responsible. The meat plant was need to be addressed, and I know the simple answer is to something that was inherited. The final detail he might throw money at the problem and not look up because there have had some control on, but when this House was being is going to be paying factor, but the longer we put off trying told such things as that we can export our sheep to the to sort out the real problems with the industry the bigger continent and things like that when have a new meat plant, the problems are going to be and the way the costs are at the same time we were having British lorries being burnt going to escalate. We have seen all these political sops to do so. with the meat plant and other things which, at the end of What concerns me about the debate and about these the day, are not going to surpass and it is just going to be a letters is that the letters seem to be talking with 'forked bottomless pit until we have somebody there who is tongues' so to say; they can live with the minister, they prepared to look at the whole spectre. I mean, what can live without the minister, and what concerns me today concerned me was that the Agricultural Marketing Act 1934 is there are a lot of hedged bets as far as this is concerned. obviously is not working. Why we have not got that sort I think there have been complaints about the fisheries out and really sorted out where we are going on this thing industry. There have been complaints by people that some I just question. areas as far as the fishing industry is concerned can get I would like to move the suspension of Standing Order more grants in different areas than other areas. We have 66, which deals with open ballots. I believe that the only

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K397

way forward as far as this is concerned is to have a secret that has to be adopted if we are to take - (Interjection) Yes, ballot because, quite frankly, that would show a true picture I am going to invite someone to second the motion and as far as where people feel their loyalties are within their then the House can debate whether or not it wishes to different groupings, and we might find that the APG might suspend Standing Orders. not have such a strong whip as far as they are concerned in Now the present position - Standing Order 66 provides their group or the Council of Ministers, because I think that 'Any member shall be entitled to call for a division on that really would underline the real commitment within any question,' and that is what we are talking about. When this House as far as the hon. minister is concerned, because the House divides the votes of members shall be taken it concerns me today that I believe that the real issues have openly. As you know, that is how we take votes. not been addressed, and the real issue is what we have a (Members: Hear, hear.) Now, to suspend Standing Orders history of: where we come to having four legs and a woolly in order to make the change in terms of item 15 on the coat we pamper and when you have two legs and no coat, Agenda Paper, Standing Order 198 recites: 'The House well, we are used to ignore, and I will give the Council of may, upon motion of any member, and if agreed to by a Ministers their due, they have a good record, they have vote of at least sixteen members of the House, suspend improved tremendously well from the sad days when we any of the Standing Orders.' Now, in the event - and I am would hang our heads in shame as far as our social welfare not saying that this is going to happen that the House agreed on this Island and our social benefits, but I believe that we to suspend Standing Orders so as to enable the ballot to be have done well. But times could change and I believe that taken secretly as proposed by the hon. member for Onchan, agriculture is not something that can be funded like a it would be my view that if the House agreed to that bottomless pit for ever and a day, and I just question procedure the wish of the majority of the House as recorded whether the present minister is up to looking at the real secretly should then prevail. That would be my view. issues that need to be really addressed as far as this industry Now, having tried to explain the situation to hon. is concerned. It must be very difficult when you actually members can I call for a seconder, if there is one, to the have such a large amount of agricultural persons working motion proposed by the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. in your constituency as far as this is concerned, and I think Karran, that the vote on item 15 be taken secretly? Do I sometimes it might be better to have a townie running - have a seconder to that proposal?

Mr. Kermode: No fear! Dr. Mann: Yes, I would second that, Mr. President.

Mr. Karran: - this department and let us get a few of The Speaker: Now, does any hon. member wish to the things that need to be sorted out and a few of the sacred speak to that motion? cows like a number of issues that have to be addressed but have never been addressed which have had far too much Mr. Gilbey: I thought the hon. member had already support in the past. spoken in the debate, so can he -? I would just like to move that we suspend Standing Order 66 in order that we have a secret ballot as far as this The Speaker: No, no. This is not on the main motion. is concerned, because I honestly do not believe... I know When we have a debate on the issue of the suspension of many people might think I am obnoxious, (Laughter) but Standing Orders. at least I am straight and obnoxious; if I am going to say something to somebody it is through the front of their chest Mr. Kermode: Can I speak? and not through their back. What concerns me is that I believe that if we are going to go down this road I think The Speaker: Yes, of course, you may. the only way forward is to have... because that way we would have 100 per cent. surety, then, that the minister Mr. Kermode: Just speaking to the motion, hon. does have confidence in himself and he is not hiding behind members, I find this despicable that the hon. member the apron strings of the Chief Minister and on the block should move a motion like this. (Members: Hear, hear.) vote of his ministers in order to try and keep them in power We are elected in this House to let people know outside or the patronage of the would-be ministers that are in this exactly what we are doing here, and we are getting to a House who do not want to blot their copy book. (Members: stage where personality has to creep into... If I decide to Hear, hear.) I beg to move: vote for that motion it will be on the merit of the situation and the information given to us and not because I am afraid That Standing Order 66 be suspended to enable the to let anybody know how I am going to vote and nobody division to be by secret ballot. in the past could ever contradict me on that because I have moved a vote of no confidence in other ministers here The Speaker: Hon. members, the hon. member for before. But I cannot stand this back-stabbing and this Onchan, Mr. Karran, having moved the suspension of secrecy. There is too much of it. Let us throw this nonsense Standing Orders, it is my view, with which I trust you will out and let us get on with the vote and at least show the agree, that it would at this time be appropriate to suspend man who is backing who and give him your vote at the the main debate and to determine the issue that has just end of the day or vote against him, but at least be honest been raised by the hon. member. So first of all I am going enough to tell the man you support him or you do not to tell you what the existing procedure is and the procedure support him. (Interjections)

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K398 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

The Speaker: Hon. members, any remarks should be Karran - 4 addressed through the Chair. Please proceed, sir. Against: Messrs. Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Mr. Cretney: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the Brown, May, Corlett, Cretney, Duggan, Kermode, opportunity to speak against any suggested secret ballot. Downie, Mrs. Hannan, Messrs. Bell, Groves, Corkill, We should be prepared to stand up and be counted rather Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 19 trying to secure (Members: Hear, hear.) our political future or keep in with one or other group in this House. The public The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion fails to carry have a right to know how their public representatives vote with 4 votes in favour and 19 against. We now resume the on this and every issue. debate on the motion that is before the House moved by the hon. member for Garff, and I call upon the hon. member The Speaker: Does any other hon. member wish to for Rushen, the Chief Minister. speak? Reply, sir? Mr. Walker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it right Mr. Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, the simple fact of that I inform members, really, of where I stand on this the matter is that you secretly balloted in order to pick situation that has developed and my views on the resolution your Chief Minister, you secretly balloted as far as picking that is in front of members this morning. who you put on different committees and all I would like Listening to the hon. member who proposed the motion to see is a true picture as far as this is concerned. What I and the comments of members who have spoken so far, it do not want to see is the situation where people are running seems to me that the accusations against the minister which, out to the toilet or something like that as far as that is in some peoples' view, would lead us to have a vote of no concerned. What I want is to make sure we have a clear confidence in him fall into perhaps three main categories: commitment here, not a situation where we have ministerial the first is to do with the sea lion pup itself and how that ties and we have would-be ministerial ties as far as this is matter was dealt with at department level and, probably concerned. more important and more oblique as far as the minister is I take great exception to some people trying to make concerned, what has happened to it since; the agricultural out that one wants to keep things away from the people. and fishing industry in general and the comments there What I want to make sure is that there is a true and accurate are about the minister and his stewardship of that picture of the real situation as far as the voting is concerned, responsibility; and thirdly it seems to me that it is much and I think that you will do a disservice to this vote and a about the personality of the individual minister, Mr. Corrin, disservice to the minister as far as his so-called support, and his attitude and his way of discussion and debate. So because at the moment he is guaranteed the Council of it seems to me that we have those three main categories of Ministers' support, he is almost guaranteed certain other contention. people who have been lobbied as far as this is concerned, As far as the first one is concerned, and that is the sea and what I would say is, it would show a true picture of lion pup and its disposal, I have certainly not been how members really think. It is nothing to do with closed convinced by anything that any member has said that, given government. We accept the principle: when we picked the that advice and being in the position to make that decision, Chief Minister we voted him in private, when we picked they would have made it any differently. The only thing the Government ministers when we did do that we voted that has been said which perhaps could have been in private, and I think the point is that that policy should considered but was not - and hindsight, it has been said, is be the same as far as voting them out of office is concerned a wonderful science - is whether or not some condition as well, because what concerns me is that that would show ought to be attached about its subsequent sale or perhaps a true picture as far as this proposal is before... It is all the option to purchase back, and yet I do believe that we right certain people talking about political rhetoric over have to ask ourselves whether or not that is a real option this, but that is the fact of this matter and I think you would or would it be just window-dressing. Certainly the option do a disservice to this House and we will never know the to purchase back would be window-dressing because we real, true extent of who has got confidence in the Minister know there would be nowhere for it and that was the reason of Agriculture and who has not. I beg to move. for its disposal in the first place. Whether or not, some say, in a subsequent sale would have any merit, I suppose, The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion that is before is a matter for individuals' interpretation. I rather doubt you relates to the manner in which item 15 on yourAgenda that it could be held up to have any real effect if, in fact, is to be taken in terms of a vote. Standing Order 66 provides the person who owned it wanted to dispose of it in an that the votes of members shall be taken openly and the unacceptable way, and I think His Honour Arthur Luft hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran, is proposing that made that very point in his letter - the difficulties attached the votes be taken secretly. Now, all those in favour of that to such a condition. motion proposed by the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. As far as the situation that the sea lion pup now finds Karran, please say aye; to the contrary say no. itself in, I think my hon. colleague Mr. Corrin has in fact touched on that and we are, and I am, and he is, and A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: everybody is, and the Council of Ministers is, as saddened about that situation as anybody else. Nobody, as far as I For: Messrs. Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann and Mr. am concerned, has made light on it. How to redress the

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K399 situation that has now developed is somewhat harder, and motion. my hon. colleague Mr. Corrin this morning did say that There have been times when more people out of we were going to make approaches and have made different industries have approached me about the ministers approaches through the Home Office to see if there is any particularly responsible for their little bit of economic way that pressure can be put on the French authorities to activity within this Island, so I do not believe that there is see whether or not this animal is in unacceptable conditions, a basic unrest amongst the agricultural community because as is suggested, and to see whether any of the local of the actions of the minister. I do not believe that to be the legislation over there is being broken in the way it is treated. case. Now, it is easy to say, hard to accomplish, and I do not In fact I do believe that the letter from Mr. Parsons, dismiss that at all. We approached the Home Office, the Chairman of the Flockmasters, probably put it into a Home Office no doubt go to the Foreign Office, the Foreign nutshell: he recognised that the minister has the industry Office will go to the French Embassy, the French Embassy at heart and is working for that and working very hard for will go... It is a long tortuous route and we should not that but, as they say, his problem perhaps is being 'direct expect anything tomorrow or next week, especially when and somewhat abrasive'. Those are the words... well, can you bear in mind we do not know where it is; we do not I just say that my hon. colleague Mr. Corrin is not the only know what information to give to the French authorities; I one that can be described as perhaps direct and abrasive, believe we know the name of the person who is reputed to and my other colleague Mr. Cringle has from time to time own it and put it on show, but it is a long, hard, drawn-out been described as direct and maybe abrasive - way forward. Nevertheless, I believe as a Government we should try that route and that has been put in train. Mr. Cretney: But not towards people on the radio, The other thing that we can do and which again Mr. though. Corrin alluded to this morning was not walk round with an open cheque book but if anybody comes up with a Mr. Walker: - and so have many others. We have solution as to how this animal can be placed somewhere different personalities. We have to live with those more satisfactory and there is a part for Government to personalities and we have to try and work with one another. play in that, well, that will certainly be considered. So I The hon. member I do not believe is untruthful in any way think we have those two situations to try and redress the at all and I do not believe that he is deceitful in any way at unfortunate situation that has happened since that pup left all, and it is those two things that would upset me as Chief the Island. Again I just come back to the point that I am Minister if I came to look at the way my team was working, not convinced that any member, given that decision to make and those are two situations that I could not live with. Now, under those circumstances with the quite proper advice, through this whole episode I am not certain that everybody would have made a different decision than the one my hon. has been truthful and that is unfortunate, and my hon. colleague Mr. Corrin made. colleague quoted Mr. Pape and the conversation he had As far as the agricultural industry and the fishing with him which said that this sea lion pup was in Bordeaux in a wildlife park. That would appear to be an untruth but industry are concerned, there are always differences of it was repeated by my hon. colleague in response to a opinions between people involved in those industries and question, not appreciating that situation. the minister and members of the Department of Agriculture. As far as fisheries is concerned, I do not believe there I say 'always' - I think I only go back to 1976 but I know is groundswell of opinion. There are criticisms, of course that every Board of Agriculture, every Minister of there are, and there are suggestions that somebody should Agriculture and his colleagues have from time to time not have got as much grant as he did and somebody else suffered criticism by trying to negotiate and do something should have got a bit more or a bit less or this engine should with the agricultural industry on which perhaps their not have been... all that sort of stuff, but we are used to leaders from time to time are not 100 per cent. behind them, that. We have to live with that and we have to look at the and it is bound to happen and I think it proper to happen, fundamentals. and I think we need to recognise that the ministry of Just going on a little bit more about the hon. member's agriculture is not an extension of the National Farmers' attitude, the abrasive and direct approach and all the rest Union and is not an extension of the Agricultural Marketing of it, the suggestions are that that has been used against Society or its associations. It has a job to do which is Mr. Walkden and against the press and perhaps on the radio different. I say that, fully accepting that in normal to the people in the Isle of Man. Just dealing with the radio circumstances the Government department responsible and first, I have to say I agree with my hon. colleague Mr. the industries out there should work together to a common Groves when he says we should not use Mannin Line' as aim, but from time to time we all know that that is a platform to debate Government business. We are all impractical and it does not happen. I have to say that one drawn to do it from time to time and many is the time our member of the agricultural community has been in touch hands have reached out for the telephone when we have with me to suggest that we should be supporting this motion heard discussions on Mannin Line' but I believe it is right - one member. We know the actions of another member to resist them. There is a way that we need to control our who has been serving on the society for some time and the business. I have been away for a week following Easter. I statements that have been made there, and we know the am not aware of what has been said over the radio. As far other statements that have been made that are in front of as the press are concerned, as I said in my response to a us today. But I repeat, just one person has been in touch question this morning, I had the Mail on Sunday. A guy with me suggesting in fact we should be supporting this called Nick Fielding phoned me. We have a very reasonable

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K400 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 conversation. I had no trouble at all with him. We had a a satisfactory outcome to that sort of accusation, which I long conversation. He finished by thanking me for my time do not know if it is truthful or not, is concerned. and the information. What he was wanting to know was Finally, Manx Radio and attitudes over Manx Radio, whether or not Mr. Corrin had the ultimate responsibility and I guess they are almost as difficult to respond to as for decisions within the Department of Agriculture. That calls from the press at some unexpected hour or whatever, was the question that came over; that was the question I and I do believe there is a decorum with which members, responded to. Now, who is in a position to say how each and it is not only ministers, act. I think we have a privileged of us individuals deals with questions from reporters from place in society and I think we should understand and time to time? I can well remember my hon. colleague Mr. respect that. After saying that, we all deal with matters in Corrin telling me off for making a comment of 'No our different ways and long may that be the case. comment' to a reporter who phoned me in the middle of I do hope that members will not support this resolution. the night wanting to know about the South African debacle I was encouraged by the hon. member Mr. Duggan. I that I was left to pick up after the 1986 general election appreciated what he had to say this morning. I think he, in and I knew nothing about. So we can easily criticise and a very few words, put his thumb on that and I appreciate comment on one another, but who knows the pressure that that. And the hon. member Mr. Karran, I would ask - well, you are put under? Who knows at the end of the day, if I know he does - he will think long and hard about this you say 'I am sorry, I have got no more time for this' and one. I think it is right that we take this vote in public, as put down the telephone, how that is going to be interpreted we will do, but I do not believe that Mr. Corrin should be in the newspaper? I have to say I agree that that newspaper criticised or voted against with a vote of no confidence on article was unfortunate. I think it has done the Isle of Man the grounds that Mr. Karran listed, perhaps to do with mad a great deal of harm and I am saddened about that, but just cow disease, the new abattoir and so on. Those are far let me say that during my conversation with the reporter it deeper questions that can be associated with the was absolutely clear to me that there were many people stewardship of the hon. minister himself, and I ask Mr. within this Island who had been in touch with that Karran just to think about that one. I would also say, Mr. newspaper encouraging the publication of that story. Now, Speaker, if I may, to Mr. Karran, who has obviously got a we just have to ask ourselves who did the damage and lot of thoughts about agriculture, for goodness' sake will why (Members: Hear. hear.) because I think that there you write those thoughts down? It is very easy to pose all was damage. the problems but if he has got any solutions, share them As far as Mr. Walkden is concerned, yes, I have had a with us because we need the benefit of his advice and many couple of conversations with him. He is a constituent of others. Mr. Speaker - (Interjection) Give it to us and then mine and the content of those conversations is obviously a we will see if we will take it or not, Mr. Speaker. If we do matter for me and for him but, as I said earlier on again in not get it we cannot take it! So the first thing is a bit like response to the question, I did say to him as I say to many buying a raffle ticket - unless you have a ticket you are other people who come to me with a concern, 'What do certainly not going to win. So I just say to the hon. member, you want me to do about it?' and the response was if he has got an opportunity and some ideas, let us have `Nothing, leave it be.' He just wanted me to know for my them. information and I logged up what I had been told. Now, it I hope hon. members will not support this resolution of is unfortunate, I suppose, that Mr. Walkden has the seal no confidence, that we can find a satisfactory conclusion sanctuary. He was asked by the people at the Wildlife Park to the on-going problems with the sea lion pup, make some to assist in the weaning of the sea lion pup, which he readily decisions and move on to the next business, sir. did. I accept that -a very sensible and useful thing to happen. It is unfortunate, I think, that Mr. Walkden is, in Mr. Quine: Mr. Speaker, I will readily confess that I fact, a close neighbour of Mr. Corrin's and that Mr. Corrin, find this a very difficult debate. I have, and I would hope I perhaps, has had some concern over what has happened at still have, a very good relationship on a personal basis with Mr. Walkden's - not the sea lion pup but the development, Mr. Corrin and his family, and for that reason amongst perhaps, that has taken place there. I can tell you, Mr. others I find this a very difficult debate. That said, I am an Speaker and hon. members, that Mr. Corrin is not the only elected public representative and I feel that I should take one who has had that concern and I have had constituents part in this debate and make a contribution as objectively approach me expressing concern about the seal sanctuary as I can, and I am convinced that that is what I am doing in and its place. My response to them was I told them who to the contribution that I have put together here with object to, who to put their complaint to and they said they forethought; I am not getting up and throwing things across would do that. I am not in the habit of taking up people's the floor. complaints and pursuing them myself. I do not happen to I think, to a large extent, the motion which we have believe that that is our job. I think you put people in the before us is in part a reaction to public outrage over the right line to make their own complaints; if they are not in sea lion episode. I accept that. Other members have spoken a position to do that we can certainly do it. So all I am and dealt upon broader issues, but I think the nub of the saying is that the concern about the seal sanctuary is not a matter and the spark has come from that particular incident concern that is only held by Mr. Corrin, as was perhaps and it is for that, amongst other reasons, that I will try to suggested earlier this morning. I think the suggestions of concentrate on those events and try to put out what I feel harassment are rather sad and that is something that is an objective analysis. obviously I will concern myself with to see whether or not I think the first issue I would make is that, to my mind,

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated • HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K401

the prerequisite in looking at this matter is policy and that really was the primary objective. The primary objective strategy in relation to the Wildlife Park, because this sea surely was that we had brought this wild animal into being, lion affair flows from that, or from the absence of adequate it was bred within the Wildlife Park, there were obligations policy and strategy if that be the case, and in that regard I on the management, on Government, to make sure that think I can but say that the minister has been in post for animal was properly re-housed, and I think experience has two and a half years and I think, as a consequence of what shown that we have failed to do that. we went through in Tynwald the other day, it is a fact that So far as I can understand and as far as I can read into the responsibility has been transferred to another the facts that have been given to us, it would appear - I am department in the absence of adequate policy and strategy going back now to the period immediately prior to the for the Wildlife Park. I think there are very few who would weaning of this sea lion - that the management of the disagree with that. That was clear on the facts. Wildlife Park contacted the operator of this, I think it is So far as the running of the Wildlife Park goes, again I described as a seal haven or whatever it is in the south of must say that I think the minister got off on the wrong foot the Island, and indeed, as the Chief Minister has pointed in his dealings with the Wildlife Park, and I can but refer out, it is very close to where Mr. Corrin lives. It had been him to a contribution in Tynwald on 21st January 1992 in existence for some time; it is not something that has and matters which were carried in the press. I am sure developed overnight. One assumes it was certainly there hon. members will recollect that the minister had only just with the knowledge of the staff of the Wildlife Park and arrived in the department at that time and in effect he took one assumes it was there with the knowledge of the the management and, by implication, the staff to task for minister. Now, whatever current thoughts may be about what he found in the Wildlife Park. There may well have the acceptability of that seal haven or seal sanctuary, the been - indeed, from what I am told there was - good cause fact is that the department at that point in time saw fit to to be concerned about what then existed and the state the approach that sanctuary and ask them to take on the Wildlife Park was in, but that is not the point I wish to responsibility of weaning this sea lion and it was agreed to make. The point I wish to make is that it was not a situation under certain conditions, and at that stage quite clearly to be redressed through the media, because if you do that there were no reservations over the 'unlicensed' status, and you go against the grain or you generate the ill will of which seems to have become an issue subsequently - and the staff you are making the climb, the push, to change I say 'unlicensed' here because there is no provision for things all the more difficult and I am afraid, consciously licence, as I understand it in law at the moment there was or otherwise, that is what my hon. friend did. He sought to no concern then about whether or not there were hygiene castigate the management for the state of the situation and or health problems. The management of the Wildlife Park he entered into his reign as minister not with the goodwill accepted it was a perfectly acceptable, albeit temporary, of the staff of the Wildlife Park but with a lot of discontent home for this animal to the extent that the Government festering within the staff of the park, and I think those two vets and staff visited this place, and I think this is important, things are the two first points that I would care to make. It because in very recent weeks the existence and the need is a matter of record that policy and strategy were - still for control over this establishment has assumed are, because the new department has only just entered into considerable importance and yet, not all that long ago, we this scene - deficient in relation to the Wildlife Park, and had the department through the Wildlife Park in effect not secondly that in terms of the harmony, the management of only condoning the existence of it but supporting the the staff, the goodwill of the staff, I am afraid that was activities of it. largely lost at the outset, and I honestly believe that these It would appear that the problem arose in December are matters of fact, matters of record. 1993 when it became public knowledge where the sea lion There are onerous obligations and duties, I would had been temporary placed; that seems to be when the suggest, some legal and some moral, on any party who matter came to a head. Now, even at that stage, from the determines to keep wild animals in captivity and, not least, correspondence we have got here, it would appear that the the justification, of course, of depriving the wild animals staff of the Wildlife Park remained happy with the sea lion; of their liberty. That is a very serious matter. I would trust they were happy with that placement even at that stage. it was a matter which Government initially addressed when And indeed the only reference I can see to any reservations they were entering into this wildlife venture and one would were reservations attributed to people, as it was put, at a hope that it was one which was from time to time re- higher level, not to the management of the Wildlife Park. assessed by Government. The housing, therefore, of any But when it became known that this animal was to be wild animal, that is re-housing a surplus to requirements, disposed of by sale to a dealer, then of course this issue is clearly a very serious and sensitive issue, and that must was very much in the forefront. It became very much a surely must have been recognised from the outset. We know public issue and it appeared that from that time the attitude how strong the feeling is about animal welfare in this day towards this seal sanctuary by the department has changed; and age, and I would suggest that that was certainly there is no doubt about that. As I understand it, we now recognised in relation to this matter. Indeed, the minutes know that no conditions were attached to the sale of this of the departmental meeting to which we got, I think, sea lion to the dealer, and indeed I notice in a letter to Dr. underlined that situation. But, notwithstanding that, it Mann from the minister he rather curtly brushes this would appear that the exercise was basically how to get question aside. rid of the animal and what price would be paid for it, and Now, we have had access today to a document in which I find that somewhat unfortunate because I do not think His Honour Arthur Luft has expressed a view on the

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - • Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K402 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 possibility of attaching conditions to the sale of an animal, than what is generally found on the continent, so the and he has expressed the view that it would not be an question was, was it appropriate to release that animal? enforceable proposition. Well, I can give you many Which was better, to release that animal into the care of a examples of agreements which Government have in respect zoo which had some control through the UK Federation of unenforceable propositions and we are probably about of Zoos or release it unconditionally to a dealer? Now that, to enter into another one in the very near future, but the I honestly believe, is the crux of the matter, that decision; point is, at least if conditions had been attached there would that was the decision that the minister had to confront and have been some manifestation made, some commitment he confronted with advice. But it comes down to that simple sought and obtained, as to the future welfare of that animal, statement. How would you individually have reacted if but nothing would appear to have been sought or obtained. you had an option - you had to house this animal, you Again Mr. Corrin has said in that letter to Dr. Mann that it were aware of the sensitivity, the public interest attached was his expectation and confidence in the officers to carry to this animal? If you had those issues before you and your out their duties and responsibilities in a responsible manner, options were quite clear: you could either transfer it into and I do not take issue with that at all. I think if you have the care of the zoo with responsibilities, with obligations professional officers the minister is entitled to take advice through the Federation of Zoos, through the UK legislation, from them, and I do not think one could question that. But do you take that route or do you take the route of giving it it does not stop there. When you take the advice you have to a dealer, unconditional without any constraints to evaluate that advice, you have to look at the validity of whatsoever applied to it? I honestly believe that that really that advice and indeed, if you go back to the earlier stage is the fundamental issue in this whole sea lion saga. I leave where there was a question mark put over the management it to members to judge for themselves how they would of the Wildlife Park, all the more reason to consider that have answered that question. advice in great detail and perhaps take outside advice. I think I must also say that I have been surprised and If I could just move to 3rd January now, as I think this somewhat shocked to see a letter from the minister which is the next main point that I would like to make, it would was addressed to Dr. Mann. I do not want to expand upon appear that the minister confirmed to the operator of the that because it is in the domain of the members, they have seal sanctuary that the sea lion would be sold, and it was it before them, but I think that the contents of that letter then already a public issue and the sensitivity of that sea are most regrettable and I think the minister himself, if he lion's future was already in the public domain, and yet it looks back on the contents of that letter, will say they are was not until 8th February, some month later, that the sea most regrettable. It was not a well-considered letter and it lion left this Island, so there were several weeks when this did lay the minister open, against the backdrop which we issue was in the public domain. Now, again it has been now know, to suggestions of some form of vindictiveness suggested that there had been an agreement reached with or some disagreement with the operator of the seal the dealer and if that agreement had been reneged upon sanctuary. I think that was most unfortunate. there could have been some contractual obligation. That I think we have covered most of the ground here today may well have some substance, but we have to look at the and I think it has been fairly well and truly covered, but I value to be attached to that obligation. It was a deal would ask members to consider two or three issues which involving a £2,000 transaction, it was no more than that, it are pertinent to this. I would have to say to my good friend was not one that carried onerous legal obligations and even and the Chief Minister touched upon this that this is as at that late juncture I would honestly suggest that, if there much an issue which flows from a personality trait as from was any question over the suitability of the placement, then the actual events themselves and I think he himself, taking that contract, if contract there be - I mean, there is no written stock of what has now happened, would be inclined to contract in the papers we have been given here today - but agree with me. I think, had he covered this ground again, if there is a contract in being or if it was a contract of he would not have responded perhaps as impetuously and acceptance on a verbal undertaking, if that had been in such a manner as he has done, and I think that is reneged upon, that would have been £2,000 well spent in unfortunate because it has led on to a situation which has the light of the damage that has been done now. So I am blown this out of all proportion, and, say what you will not in a position to judge whether Arthur Luft's advice is about it, a great deal of damage has been done to the Island good, bad or indifferent in terms of the legal implications and to the Government, and that again as been fairly much but I do say that those conditions should have been exacted, common ground here today. We need, as I think two or should have been attached and, if we had to go in default three members have said, to look at this objectively and I of those conditions or a contract of sale in the light of the have no query with that; we have to look at the facts and public interest in this matter, then that would have been a place ourselves again in the position of the minister, but I loss worth sustaining. must say that, in my case having looked at that situation, I What I think is important is this: there was a choice do feel that he has fallen short in a number of respects in before the department - albeit it may have involved some dealing with this particular situation and I feel, if he was reneging on this contract of sale if it existed - and that was to be honest with himself and cover the ground again, he this: do you dispose of this animal to a zoo that is a member would agree with us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of the UK Federation of Zoos, accepting that UK zoos are not beyond criticism? Mr. Corrin has quite rightly pointed Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has out the criticisms of certain zoos in the UK, but at the just resumed his seat, the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine, same time he has conceded they are substantially better started off his presentation to us this afternoon by

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K403

commenting that he found it a somewhat difficult motion wish I had.' We all get in those positions and I am sure my to debate. Similarly, certainly I find it a difficult one. It is colleague sitting alongside me, listening to me now, must to some extent a constituency matter as far as I am be quite honestly sick of this whole business and I can concerned, and of course, being a constituency matter, perfectly well and reasonably understand that. inevitably it has that double edge to it and, as a constituency Nevertheless, I have to say that in the sea lion case and the matter and dealing with the Minister of Agriculture, I also handling of it I think it could have been handled a lot better. have to pay recognition to the fact that the Minister of I listened very carefully to my colleague this morning, Agriculture is chosen by my other colleague, the Chief because I can quite openly say that I had really come down Minister, Mr. Walker, not by this hon. House. to the view that had my colleague acted irrationally in his So it is without question a difficult matter to debate on response to the debate in any regard this morning, well the floor and in public. Notwithstanding that, I find that in then, I think any ebb, as it were, of support which I have fact it is a very proper resolution for this House to be for him would have flown out of the door and I would debating and I honestly believe that there is a need for this have been voting for the resolution. But I did listen House to debate such a resolution. I am not totally carefully and I think he spelt out his case, maybe lengthily, convinced that it is a need to debate a resolution specifically but nevertheless he spelt out his case. aimed at one individual minister, but I am inclined to think But let us also look at the other points which rightly the that we should be broader in our outlook in debating the member, Dr. Mann, in moving this motion drew to our ministerial position. attention this morning, and I have to say that I think, to Now, I have got no intent this afternoon... because I some extent again, rightly drew to our attention. And I say could go on at length on this one as you well know and I to my hon. colleague that out there in the wide blue yonder, will deliberately try to avoid doing so. The position is quite yes, there is support in the agricultural industry, but I have plain: today we have a minister, our Minister of Agriculture, to say that well, maybe the devil we know is better than facing a vote of no confidence. Now that, sir, can in no the devil we do not, and equally out there they are very other way be interpreted than by the severest of censures, well aware that with a ministerial system and an alternative and I would equally say that because we have a minister policy group, the choices from the remainder for ministerial being censured, in my book the Government of the Isle of position are but few and the changes or the shuffle must, Man is being censured, and I saw a half nod from my to my other colleague, the Chief Minister, severely be a colleague out of the side of my eye there so I think that the problem. Chief Minister will probably also take that on board. And But the agricultural industry is concerned because there in regard to the ministerial system I will simply say to this are times... and I am going to tell my colleague, he came hon. House, previously there was a half-term shuffle, you across it this morning and I think it is incumbent that in had a right nicely to censure any individual and there was fact I myself, with some knowledge of the agricultural a need for Tynwald Court to have that safety valve, that industry, should at least publicly tell the Minister of responsibility. Now I think there is possibly a need for this Agriculture where he was not misleading us this morning House to have that safety valve and so, I, although finding but in fact was not actually getting to the basis always of it difficult, welcome the resolution so that it enables this what is happening there. We had the position spelt out to House to debate it. The unfortunate thing is, as I say, that us quite forceably this morning that, as a result of the milk it comes down to being individualistic. executive having a survey done via the accountants and Now, I have been considering, ever since I knew that the business plan and all the rest and then the appointment this was going to appear, what stance I would take, and I of an executive, that is the golden coin which suddenly have certainly found my decision on that equally difficult. flipped the milk industry into effect, and our minister was Let us look at the position as the Chief Minister tried to really telling us this morning that, whilst there was a spell out, that in fact we have three points: the sea lion, difference in the cheese market, the major effect was the agriculture and fisheries and personality. As far as change of a new executive. Well, I have to say to the objectivity and wanting to view the motion fairly, I have minister that in that context he is wrong, because the major to say that on the sea lion case I certainly and without any effect was unquestionably the cheese market price which question at all find that our minister and my colleague is had the biggest single factor. I would say at least 70 per found severely wanting, no ifs or no buts, and I am sorry cent. of the extra income into the milk industry in the Isle about that. I am certain in my own mind that the minister of Man was certainly, unquestionably, a result of a UK should certainly have apologised at a much earlier time, change in the cheese price. It was also affected by the fact (Members: Hear, hear.) no question about that, and I am that prior to the new executive there was a considerable equally certain that the media should have been handled off-loading of a cheese mountain. Here, effectively, on the far more sensitively than they have been. I was surprised, Isle of Man they were storing up cheese. They were able for example, to learn that as late as yesterday he was to get rid of that and that, along with the new executive appearing on the radio. I think that that was unfortunate coming when he happened to be in the very fortunate and, as I say, I am quite aware that here we are dealing position of a huge increase in the price of cheese, was able with my colleague in the Rushen constituency; It does not to put a penny, plus, onto the milk price. It is not only that give me any pleasure whatsoever. We all find ourselves point which made milk effective. from time to time doing things which afterwards, in the Again this morning, dealing with the fatstock industry quiet of our own home when we sit down at night, we and dealing with the abattoir, my colleague was making often will be saying to ourselves 'I wish I hadn't' or 'I the point that in response to a question he was saying that

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K404 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

the throughput of the abattoir had slipped badly in the last decision. Now, that is wrong and in this sort of vote it is quarter of 1993 because of exportation of live animals, doubly wrong, but it is equally wrong that on a matter of but in fact what the minister should really have been letting censure on one of our hon. colleagues we should not be this House be aware of is that the reason that the throughput seen to be public and I am certainly prepared to stand and of the abattoir currently is at a low is because at the October/ be public on it. I want my hon. colleague to know that, as November period of 1982 - he is right in saying agriculture far as I am concerned, although this afternoon he is going is a long-term industry - exported from the Isle of Man in to get my support, it is a considerable censure on him, and the cattle units which were leaving at that time were a I also hope that the Chief Minister realises that, as far as I considerable number of suckler cows, and because the am concerned, I consider it is a censure on the Government breeding herd was being seriously diminished at that time of the Isle of Man. it means that there are that many less cattle units on the Isle of Man now. Mr. Gilbey: Mr. Speaker, unlike the last hon. member, Now, I can also pay tribute to my colleague in the the member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle who has resumed his Department of Agriculture because rightly he has noticed seat, I do not welcome this motion. It is the first separate that there is that fault within the agricultural industry, the vote of no confidence in his hon. House during the 11 years balance is out of kilter, and he has actually made public that I have been in it, and I believe it is a very sad sign of pronouncements that it is his wish to increase the suckler reduced consensus and increased confrontation over that herd, possibly by a thousand. There is a good side, but you period, to the detriment of the legislature, the Government must not always override the good side by saying, 'Well, and the people of this Island. all things are well because we have had the accountants I would now like to briefly touch on some of the remarks do a report.' That does not necessarily flow through and I made by the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran. I am wish that my colleague - and I am sure he will hereafter! - afraid that his remarks about mad cow disease are would take that on board and be a little bit, again, more extremely misleading. The fact of the case is that the sensitive in the comments which he makes in relation to Germans have acted totally unjustifiably and totally agriculture, particularly to agriculturalists in the wide blue illegally in trying to stop the movement of beef from the yonder. So again we have to look at the whole picture. British Isles to the continent. The picture in relation to Orry, as I say, is a very sad Now, when we come to the problems of agriculture they occasion. I honestly think it is, and I think that my colleague are not the fault of the present Minister of Agriculture, will take that on board, and I can accept and do accept his any other Minister of Agriculture, of whom there are apology for the way in which that happened. As far as his several in this hon. House, or any Manx Government; they agriculture goes, well, I am sure that, as other members are due to world agricultural, economic and social trends. have told him, the agricultural industry in its support to I could exceed the length of the hon. member for Ayre's him is unquestionably out there hedging its bets and I think speech in talking about these trends but I assure you I shall that is equally true. not do so. I feel that we could very easily spend a much longer The motion today is undoubtedly due to the time discussing our colleague and discussing his faults, department's handling of the disposal of and subsequent but I would then have to look at myself and I would then events regarding Orry the sea lion. Now, let no-one think have to say to each and every one of you, 'Well, okay, these do not matter. I believe they are extremely serious now you can have a go at me.' And that is fair enough, because we do, and we must show that as a Government because we are politicians and we put ourselves there to we do, and the legislature and the public of this Island do be shot at and there are times we are going to be shot, but care deeply about animals and do care deeply about their we must also be big enough to realise that once we have proper treatment. We are not like the hypocrisy of some made a mistake we are straight and honest and forward European countries which will not allow the mildest with it, because, without any question, out there in the wide corporal punishment but allow thousands of defenceless blue yonder next time round at the electoral box they will animals to suffer the most terrible torture day after day. let us know anyway and there it happens. You only have to look at the appalling pictures in some of So on balance, whilst I can accept that my friend and our papers put in by organisations trying to stop this bestial colleague from Onchan this afternoon attempted to suspend behaviour to see what happens, pictures which I am sure Standing Orders to have this vote held in private, I think many of you like me can hardly look at. Then we have the he was wrong. But I flagged up, briefly, the ministerial latest outrage of ponies who are alive being used as system and I want to flag up yet again, briefly, the voting permanent things for children to ride on on roundabouts. system because our voting system is wrong in this House. These are just some of the examples, as well as burning I have flagged it up on many an occasion, I have let the sheep and lambs alive, of that behaviour that some management committee know and I am sure we are wrong. continentals mete out to dumb animals. There are members sitting here today who know full well Anyone who knows anything at all about animals should that if they count the votes as it comes round in order every therefore have known very well the dangers inherent in time - the only person who really has to call his vote is Mr. any animal of any kind going to the continent. Now the Gilbey; he is first all the time. Mr. Anderson, as the previous minister perhaps should have known; however, perhaps member who used to sit there, said that often. There are he is not really an animal man, but his officers certainly members who know full well that if they are at the end of should have known very well these details. the roll call they can vote either way and they know the There is someone else who should have known

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K405

definitely in view of his interest and work regarding animal doing an acceptable job for the vital, basic industry of welfare. Who? Let me read from the minutes of the meeting agriculture, which his department has a duty of sponsoring of the Department of Agriculture on 4th September 1991. and supporting? The hon. mover suggests he is not. Dr. Mann referred to the previous decision of the However, those who must surely know best about this department to dispose of the sea lions and penguins. We are those in the agricultural industry. They are not, then have a bit about the hon. member of Council, Mr. admittedly, marching to this hon. House to support the hon. Willie Quirk, expressing his concern. It goes on: `Dr. Mann minister; however, neither are they writing letters to support advised that there was an opportunity to sell the two sea the motion. Indeed, their letters do the reverse. Apparently lions to a continental destination for £5,000 plus travel - and I have checked up on this by talking to various people and other incidental costs,' and then it goes on that it was - they feel there could be worse people as minister. There generally agreed to sell these two animals. Now, the hon. is no great groundswell against him, there is no clear member advised on the opportunity to sell not only one majority wish to remove him, therefore the views within but two animals to the continent, and there is no word that the industry give no reason to support this resolution, and he personally disagreed with this proposal or even warned this view is supported by letters from the President of the against the dangers of the proposal. Now, it may be argued NFU, Mr. Graham Crowe, the Chairman of the Fatstock the minutes are not correct, but, if they are not correct, Association, Mr. Radcliffe and Mr. Ellwood Parsons. I why were they not corrected at a subsequent meeting? As know the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran, has tried they were not corrected we can only assume that the hon. to pour scorn on these letters and say, 'Of course they would member concerned and the other members of the say that, wouldn't they? It is in their interest to.' The fact committee considered that they were a true record of the is, we can only accept people's letters on face value. I am proceedings. Therefore he was, at the very least, condoning sure there would be many members who, if the letters said the sale to the continent of these two animals. How can he the reverse, would not say 'Oh, they do not really mean now move a vote of censure against the hon. minister for that, do they?' having inadvertently allowed the export of one animal The hon. mover spoke at length about the problems of when he did nothing, apparently, to prevent the export of the new meat plant. However great these problems are, two animals, and how can the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. they cannot be laid alone at the door of the present minister. Quine, criticise the hon. minister for unwittingly allowing, I personally believe that the terms for the occupation of because of his position as minister, one animal to be the premises should have been agreed before building even exported when in fact his own leader connived and did not started. object to the possible export of that one animal's two Finally, it may be claimed that in the past the minister parents? However, this is an important matter, but it is has been unheeding and inflexible, perhaps aggressive, hardly a matter of major policy on which the minister certainly tactless. However, there are many other should resign, particularly in view of the advice he obtained governments who have had very successful ministers who from expert officers and because of the precedent of the have shown the same characteristics. I think they could be views, or apparent views, of the hon. mover of this said to apply to such great statesmen as Churchill and De resolution. Gaulle. They could also certainly be applied to many other Furthermore, rather than castigate the minister, I think successful ministers. Also, he is the same person now as we would be better discussing how we can save Orry from when he was appointed, and I do not remember any great the outrageous conditions which he now appears to be in. rush then to say 'This chap has not got suitable I personally believe there are ways in which this could be characteristics to be a minister.' done. However, clearly they should not be discussed in Therefore, overall, I can find no adequate justification public until they have succeeded. The ladies and gentlemen to support this motion, particularly, in this matter as in all who canvassed us as we came in did not have sheets saying others, the person must be innocent until they are proven `Sack the minister'; they gave us handouts saying 'Save guilty. I do not believe that any proof has been presented Orry.' I believe this is what must be done and I was today that justifies the extreme step of a vote of no delighted to hear that the minister and the Chief Minister confidence, and let us consider, as one hon. member are taking steps to that end. touched on it, what an extreme step this is: you are not I believe that we would appear totally absurd if we only sacking the person, but you are doing it in a most removed a minister on account of this one matter regarding public way. He has been sacked by his colleagues, which which, in my view, he cannot be held to be guilty of any is something that would never be forgotten during the rest real impropriety, particularly when he has the support of of his political or other career. no less a person than the retired First Deemster, who makes As has been said, every member has a right to bring it clear that in fact there was a contract entered into by such motions to this hon. House. However, I am sad that officers to sell Orry before any alternative approaches were someone who has such a past distinguished career as the made as to Orry's possible future. hon. mover of this motion should have seen fit to do it, There has been talk about misuse of power for personal and I shall certainly vote against it. ends. However, there is no proof at all regarding this matter, regarding which the Chief Minister dealt most effectively. The Speaker: Does any other hon. member wish to Therefore, I believe we should ask ourselves, are there speak? Reply, sir? any other valid reasons for supporting this motion? As the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Groves, asked, is the minister Dr. Mann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I

• Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence — Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K406 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 presented to this House this morning a carefully argued Dr. Mann: - and the main object of those proposals speech which raised certain issues which I thought were was to achieve a situation where we knew the ultimate important. Now, I do not know how many hours later, destination and could in fact ensure that it was satisfactory. certainly over two hours from the minister himself, of the It is not necessarily wrong, nor have I ever said so, for this issues that have been raised, only one or, possibly at the animal to have gone to the continent; what was not outside, two very small items concerned with the sea lion necessary was that we negotiated with the ultimate itself have been answered. destination and that we did not proceed through dealers This, as has been said, is an important resolution; it over which we had no control. That is the difference, and certainly has not been a common one. It is the first one, when a new Department of Agriculture arrived and said certainly, in my time in this House, and I would have what a terrible state the Wildlife Park was in, it is still thought there are really two very important contributions: perfectly valid, it did nothing. There were advanced there is the contribution of the mover to give his grounds preparations for putting those recommendations and for raising the resolution, and secondly the contribution of implementing them, and we are now two years and three the minister to reply or to justify actions that have been months after the minister strode in to say he was putting questioned. Although all the other contributions are things right and he claims he did not even know about it. I obviously of value, those other contributions are matters would say that is totally irresponsible for any minister in of opinion seen by individual members in their various any department. If he did not know about it the first week, positions in Government or outside or in their personal at some time during two years and three months he should relationships with the minister concerned. I, as mover of have known about it and most certainly, if it had been put this resolution, am seeking the answers to the questions into effect, the present situation would not have happened. that have been raised. We can argue all day as to what happened subsequently Now, if I can just deal with the two issues that have when the pup was ultimately produced. We obviously have been answered, one is concerning the matter of whether argued all day. The fact is that the public of the Isle of or not the minister was offered options in the sale of the Man are quite honestly disgusted at the way that this matter sea lion. This has been raised in public by several people. has been dealt with. Now, it does not matter how any of It is now denied by the minister. All right, I accept the you vote, and it is pretty obvious you are all going to jump denial, but to say that it was impossible to deal with any for positions of safety (Interjections) the people out there other variation, I think, is totally incorrect. He was aware are disgusted with the way that issue has been handled. If, of the public disquiet. There is no evidence at all that he as has been said, all of this depended on the officials, then, made any approach to this Mr. Pape to ask if there could by God, some of those officials ought not to be here! be a variation; there is no evidence of any of his staff doing (Members: Hear, hear.) But I will return to that when we so either. We are told that we have a contract, or a contract discuss the status of a minister. was signed, which could not be altered. As the hon. member I produced this morning a carefully argued criticism of for Ayre has pointed out, the sum of money was not so the way that the consultant's report on the Fatstock large that even that could have been put at risk, but to say Marketing Association was handled. Not a single member, that no contract was possible is quite incorrect, because including the minister, has answered that question. In any contract is possible and certainly a contract involving September last year we all received three volumes a buy-back situation is certainly enforceable. So why, when concerning the Fatstock Marketing Association and its the public were shouting, did not somebody try and ask? practices. I doubt whether very many people have got past the first few pages, but within those recommendations the The other matter concerns - and it was denied, my reference to the fact that the minister in anger altered the very highly qualified consultants admitted that they could not produce a balance sheet, could not produce a business terms of sending this sea lion away. That was quite correct. plan without knowledge of Government policy. The answer It only involved, I must admit, the staffing, the number of should have been that after a good time to consider the staff who should go away with this particular animal. It recommendations the Department of Agriculture, had previously been agreed that the woman assistant who supported by the Council of Ministers, should have publicly had done so much work to ensure that this animal survived, said what recommendations they were going to support. should travel with it, but the minister in some fit of anger At that time they could have gone back to the consultants decided that she should not and certainly that the and said, 'These are the recommendations that we are going department was not going to pay for her to go away, as it to support, this is Government policy; now produce the was called, 'on holiday'. These are the matters where balance sheet, now produce the business plan and see if somehow everything just does not fall into place. we get support.' That should have been done in another The other matter that I accept is the openness of the place. All of us should have had the opportunity of either minutes of the departmental meetings. It shows just how supporting or voting against a recommendation of far the previous committee of the Wildlife Park had Government policy based on the consultant's advanced to ensure that the recommendations were actually recommendations. Once it had become Government policy put into effect. I know the hon. member for Glenfaba then the minister should have proceeded to implement it. appears to cheaply jibe - those were proposals that were The present position arises because we still have not being considered - got the Government policy and so far, including two hours of talking, we have not found one. We have no Mr. Gilbey: You did not object. recommendations. How on earth can anybody understand

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K407 what this department is doing, least of all the agricultural his department and also at least a string of several private community who are going to suffer? We hear of the falling veterinary surgeons. We only last week hear that an throughput; right, we know some of the reasons, but inspector from the Department of Local Government and nobody has yet dared to put forward an argued policy of the Environment suddenly knocks on the door. There is no how that is going to be changed because one of the communication in all the papers that have been given to recommendations, which appears to be accepted because you of any letter written by the minister to the department. nobody has said anything else yet, is that we import up to I believe one exists. What was the complaint? The inspector 3,000 calves on contract, fatten them and then export them was not allowed to say, but the implication was that it was again. Now, if you can tell me anyway in which that can politically motivated. be done successfully and profitably, there are not many These matters have not been answered and I come back other people who could either. These are just one or two to the last and most important, in my view, aspect of this of the problems. whole shameful affair. What is the responsibility of a What I was trying to establish this morning and to which member of this Government? A minister of this once again there has been no answer is the fact that some Government has immense power, immense by any of these recommendations in the mind of the minister... comparison; some might say it is almost like a benevolent because none of us know any differently, he has got his dictatorship but I will not say that myself - secret agenda of his recommendations that he wants putting into effect, without our knowledge, and he will use the Mr. Brown: That is good! (Laughter) negotiations on agreeing a rental for that new meat plant as the reasons for implementing them, and that is what is Dr. Mann: - but there is immense power within a happening. Now, that is an entirely unsatisfactory and department. That immense power has been handed to that unacceptable situation. That has not been answered in any individual by the Chief Minister. The minister of a way, and I would suggest that putting that forward this department is responsible for his appointment directly to morning was responsible, reasonable and we have not had the Chief Minister. It is only by putting down a resolution an answer. Have you still your confidence? Ultimately that such as this that one can use parliamentary power to make is going to come home to roost and the people that will sure that that minister answers to the representatives of come home to roost are the people who wrote those letters. the people. There is nothing wrong in bringing that I was not trying to dominate this morning's proposal or resolution forward and I think there were enough grounds moving of the resolution on the matter of the sea lion or, and still are enough grounds for doing so. A minister with for that matter, on the Wildlife Park, because the Wildlife this vast power should not in his own interest use it Park has already been moved to another home, and I tried abnormally. He has a very great responsibility to the people to point out that things were far from correct or happy outside. That responsibility is to deal fairly with everybody within the core function of this department and I am sure who raises issues within his department, to treat those they are not, but after I dealt with that I returned to the representations with equity. matter in hand as far as the sea lion is concerned, and here I am very concerned that, for one reason or another that there still has not been an answer to the one question that seems to be unexplainable, this equity has not been dominates all of it, and that is the attitude of the minister exercised in this particular matter. Unfortunately, whatever to his constituent. the result of the vote here this afternoon, the minister will I was appalled by the letter that I received from the still be minister. It does not matter if we decide otherwise minister on this subject. It was not marked confidential, it anyway; the minister is going to be the minister. All I know was an open letter and you have it in your possession, and is that all the questions that I have raised this morning if you agree that that is a responsible communication from which have not been answered - and that is nearly all of a minister of this Government, then there are serious them - will remain unanswered; the sea lion which is the problems. None of the accusations in that letter have been public 'top of the iceberg' that people can see will continue answered and the main reason appears to be, although to be a problem. It will not go away. It has been named by everybody has skirted round it, that there seems to have the children of this Island, it has been followed by a huge been a fundamental clash of personalities between the number of people on this Island, it cannot be denied that it minister and his neighbour. That happens to all of us; we was born on this Island and while it is in a dark small all have clashes of conscience with neighbours at some container chugging around Europe it is never going to be time or another. Unfortunately, in this particular case we forgotten. I am pleased that at last, after quite a few weeks have an animal that has subsequently suffered, but we also we are now talking about putting some pressure on the have the reputation of this Island that has suffered, and I French authorities. There are a large number of other people did suggest, and I suggest again, that this man has been working quietly away in their different spheres trying to deliberately harassed even since this sea lion has gone. achieve the same end. I hope ultimately we will achieve We talk about doing business on Manx Radio. What that end. I only hope that nobody ever does this again, happens? We have an interview on Manx Radio by the because it has done no good to this Island or its reputation minister himself, pointing out how necessary it is to and has done no good to its minister. I beg to move the suddenly start licensing seal sanctuaries - a sanctuary that resolution standing in my name. has been functioning for three or four years without any problems, as far as I am aware, and that has been used by The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion before the and obviously recommended by the veterinary officers of House as set out at item number 15 on the Agenda and

Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Motion of No Confidence - Debate Concluded — Motion Defeated K408 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 reads as follows: That this House has no confidence in the on to item number 12, which is the third reading of the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. All those Sewerage (Amendment) Bill in the hands of the hon. in favour please say aye; to the contrary say no. member for Douglas North, Mr. Corlett. I call upon him to move the third reading. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows; Mr. Corlett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Bill seeks For: Messrs. Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Cretney, to remove the inability of the Department of Highways, Duggan, Delaney and Karran -7 Ports and Properties to construct sewers and sewage disposal works in the town districts. It also seeks to vest in Against: Messrs. Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, the department those sewers and disposal works which it Brown, May, Corlett, Kermode, Mrs. Hannan, constructs in any district. These provisions will enable the Messrs. Bell, Groves, Corkill, Kniveton, Gelling and department, even though it is only the drainage authority the Speaker -16 for special drainage districts, to construct and own interdistrict sewage transmission mains and associated The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion fails to carry sewage disposal works in any part of the Island subject to with 7 votes in favour and 16 against. the department consulting the local authority in any district where it intends to undertake such works. At the clauses stage of the Bill some hon. members for BILL FOR FIRST READING Douglas constituencies were concerned that there would be implications for Douglas ratepayers if this Bill were The Speaker: We now turn to the Agenda. At item enacted, and there are three points for me to respond to on number we have a Bill for first reading and I call upon the this. The first point is simply one of law, that the powers Secretary of the House. under which Douglas Corporation and other local authorities who function as sewerage authorities build, The Secretary: The Trade Unions (Amendment) Bill, maintain and operate sewers and sewage works are under Mr. May. the Local Government Consolidation Act 1916 and that Act is not in any way amended by the Bill. Instead, the The Speaker: Thank you. Bill amends the Local Government (Special Drainage Districts) Act 1952 under which the DHPP and not the local authorities construct and maintains sewers and TREASURY (AMENDMENT) BILL— treatment works in the parish districts and can do so in the THIRD READING POSTPONED village districts, and the Bill will enable the department in future to carry out construction of sewers and sewage works The Speaker: Now, if we move on to item number 11, in its own right in town districts as well, and it will be we come to the third reading of the Treasury (Amendment) responsible for maintaining those - Bill and I call upon the - Several members withdrew from the chamber. Mr. Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I would just like to have a consultation with the Chief Financial Officer; I just Mr. Cretney: Do those members have leave of absence? want to check up on something, so I wish not to proceed with the third reading at this time, if that is okay with you. The Speaker: Please continue, sir.

The Speaker: You wish to address the House, hon. Mr. Corlett: - which it constructs - I am flattered! member? Mr. Brown: I am sure it is not personal! (Laughter) Mr. Cringle: If I may, Mr. Speaker. Granted there was a bit of a kerfuffle going on, but has the hon. member just Mr. Delaney: The Wildlife Park must be open! said that he wishes to withdraw this because he wishes to (Laughter). discuss it with the Financial Officer? I would like a further explanation, sir. Mr. Corlett: So, Mr. Speaker, from the point of view of statutory powers the Bill can have no effect upon the The Speaker: Well, let me put it this way: He does not arrangements, whether legal or financial, which local wish to proceed with the third reading at this time and he authorities have for building, maintaining and operating does wish to have a discussion with the Chief Financial Officer. sewers and treatment works, nor does it have any effect on the way in which a local authority's own sewers are paid for, whether by local or central Government. It happens that, as a matter of long-standing policy, the SEWERAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL - deficiency on local authorities' sewerage account is paid THIRD READING APPROVED for by central Government through the arrangement to which the Chief Minister referred to at the clauses stage, The Speaker: So I think, having heard that, we will move and, whether this Bill is passed or not passed, that situation

Bill for First Reading Treasury (Amendment) Bill — Third Reading Postponed Sewerage (Amendment) Bill — Third Reading Approved HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K409 will not be changed or influenced in any way at all. This parts of it, and after this initial paving Bill has been dealt Bill amends entirely separate legislation. with we will be consulting local authorities on the The second point I would make is that this Bill will provisions of a future major sewerage Bill which we should vest in the DHPP any sewers and treatment works which aim to have in operation possibly in 1997. it constructs in any district including the town districts, Finally, I may mention that because the present Bill will which means the DHPP will pay for their construction and give the DHPP power to construct and own interdistrict maintenance directly and the local authorities will not, not sewage transmission mains, it may well be that the first even by deficiency grant financed by central Government. interdistrict main which the department will own under So this, in a way, means that the ratepayers in a local these new powers will probably be that which is planned district, including Douglas, are given a double-layered between Foxdale and St. John's special drainage district protection against having to pay for the interdistrict within Patrick Parish, and subject to Treasury concurrence transmission mains and any centralised sewage works, and and to Tynwald approval work will be scheduled to that is because - and to emphasise the point - firstly, if the commence during the summer this year under the DHPP constructs a sewer or treatment works it will be department's existing powers to construct sewers in parish under the powers held by the DHPP and not the powers districts. If this Bill is passed, the Douglas and Onchan vested in a local authority; and secondly, if the DHPP sewer and tanks will be the first interdistrict transmission constructs. a-sewer or treatment works it will be owned main to be built by the department in a town district under and maintained and paid for by the DHPP, because with the new powers, but of course this will depend upon the this Bill the sewers and treatment works built by the planning procedure, which may mean that work will not department would remain in the ownership of the DHPP now commence in Douglas until 1995. Mr. Speaker, I beg and not revert to ownership and maintenance of the local that the Bill be read a third time. authority. So it seems to me that the Bill should give local authorities the peace of mind that interdistrict transmission The Speaker: Do I have seconder, please? mains and central sewage treatment works, which are not built and maintained by the local authorities themselves, Mr. North: I would like to second that, Mr. Speaker, will not fall to be paid for by local authority funds no matter and reserve my remarks. how those local funds are financed by central Government or local authorities. The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. The The third point I should like to make is that in the matter hon.member for Douglas East, Mr. Delaney. of petitions, which the hon. member for Douglas East particularly questioned me about at the clauses stage, it is Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, for the record, I believe only concerned with the financing of those sewers which myself and my other colleagues have found ourselves in a local authority is responsible for under the 1916 Act. the position of making a protest by having to vote against The sewers in Douglas which the hon. member was because of the uncertainty that lies within certain matters referring to are the Corporation's own sewers which the currently in front of the Government in relation to the on- Corporation maintains under its powers under the 1916 going cash situation, and I am most grateful to the hon. Act and are outside any statutory responsibility, legal or member on behalf of myself and I believe my colleagues financial, of the DHPP, though it has been mentioned for clarifying the iniquitous position which exists, because central Government does pay for their sewers via the DHPP the position is, as he has identified and he understands through a long-standing arrangement originally established now the problem we have found, that we will have two by the Local Government Board. I understand that this sets of laws in operation which gives the local authorities, arrangement followed from recommendations set out in who are not financially responsible for the sewerage under the Second Interim Report of the Select Committee on their control and the means of clearing the sewage from Rating which was approved and recommendations adopted their district, including the treatment plants, from the old by Tynwald in October 1980, and this resulted in the legislation against the new legislation proposed and which drainage rate in each district being in effect set at zero and is also being updated in relation to country areas where net local authority sewerage expenditure being funded 100 the department and the Government, I would suggest, are per cent. by central Government out of general revenue. I responsible. Now, I believe that, for town members can understand that hon. members and the Corporation certainly, the suggestion from the member that we could and perhaps other local authorities may have an interest to see a new general sewerage Bill in 1997 will be most build in some statutory requirement for central Government welcome by us and by the people we represent, because if to have ultimate responsibility for the maintenance of we are such a small community it is absolutely ridiculous sewers owned by the local authorities to replace the existing - it does nothing but create bureaucracy, creates paperwork, arrangement that central Government will meet their creates problems - to have different regulations for a deficiencies, and that issue may well be one of the matters community of 70,000 people in relation to what we are which will be tackled in the future General Sewerage Bill proposing, IRIS, a single sewerage system for the Island which the department intends will deal with the long-term to solve the whole problem and then leave bits and pieces question of local authority and central Government powers in other people's responsibility. I welcome the statement and financing in relation to sewage in local areas and the and I am most grateful to the mover of the Bill, a Douglas context of sewerage treatment for the whole Island or any member himself, who has seen, I believe, the position that

Sewerage (Amendment) Bill — Third Reading Approved K410 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 some of us found ourselves in. Mr. Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Does any other member wish to speak? Mr. Gilbey: Mr. Speaker, I rise to move: Reply, sir? That this Bill be referred to a committee of three for Mr. Corlett: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would thank the hon. consideration and report by 31st March 1995. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, and I would agree with him that there is clarification needed in the whole This is potentially one of the most important Bills to sewerage area, but I do repeat that this particular Bill, this come before this hon. House in recent times. Why do I say small Bill, is for a specific purpose which does not conflict this? It is because although it is often overlooked the with existing arrangements for the Douglas and other town primary duty of Governments is to maintain law and order. areas. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move. The Custody Bill deals with one of the four ways of doing that: the way of having sentences that are a real deterrent The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion before the to wrongdoers and therefore represent a protection for House is that the Sewerage (Amendment) Bill be now read innocent members of society. Now that unfortunately we a third time. Will all those in favour please say aye; to the can no longer use the vital deterrent of judicial corporal contrary say no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. punishment, imprisonment, which is covered by this Bill, is the only other main deterrent left for us to use. In these circumstances I believe we should be looking in great depth at the whole operation of custodial sentences and CUSTODY BILL— CONSIDERATION OF considering the way by which they can best provide a real CLAUSES COMMENCED and effective deterrent in the Isle of Man and in the circumstances of this Island. The Speaker: We now turn to the Custody Bill, the However, what have we got? We have merely in part 3 clauses stage thereof, and I call upon the hon. member for clauses 20 to 25 and Schedule 2, which deals with the Onchan, Mr. Corkill, to move clause 1. release of detainees, copies of the provisions in the UK Mr. Corkill: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Clause 1 Criminal Justice Act 1991. However, extracts from the UK White Paper, 'Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public' of introduces the new concept of custody to replace the 1990 make it clear under chapter 6, paragraph 4, that the separate concepts of imprisonment, youth custody, whole concept of early release in the UK has become detention and custody. The intention is to have one generic term rather than a number of separate expressions, the necessary because of the overcrowding in their prisons. differences between which may not be apparent to persons This is not a situation which applies to the Isle of Man and unconnected with penal terminology. This clause provides therefore the whole concept of early releases is not one that anyone other than a mental patient required to be that need apply in this Island. imprisoned or detained is to be detained in an institution. At the seminar regarding the Bill, for which I thank the `Institution' means premises provided under this Act for hon. mover and the hon. Minister of the Department of the detention of detainees or any class of detainees and Home Affairs, under intense questioning the only reason designated as such under section 11, sub-paragraph 2. put forward by the Department of Home Affairs for Again it is a generic term to avoid having to use different following UK legislation was so that the same sentencing expressions depending on the circumstances, and I can regime should apply to Manx residents who were convicted expand on the meaning of the term 'institution' when we in UK courts and returned to prison in the Isle of Man as come to clause 11. to Manx residents who were convicted in the Island and served their sentences here, also so that the same sentencing Sub-clause (1) provides that where any person is by regime would apply to UK residents who were convicted law required to be imprisoned or detained in any way, in the Isle of Man and imprisoned in the UK as UK however the requirement is expressed, he is to be detained residents who were convicted here and imprisoned here. in an institution in accordance with this Bill. However, there is absolutely no reason why the similar Sub-clause (2) provides that the term 'custody' can be custodial sentences have to apply in these cases. It would used for detention in an institution in accordance with this be perfectly logical for someone convicted for the same Bill, and references in the Bill or in any future legislation offence and serving their time in the same prison to be to custody are to be read in that way. serving different lengths of sentence depending on whether Sub-clause (3) deals with existing legislation. Any they were convicted in this Island or the adjacent isles. reference to any kind of imprisonment, detention et cetera After all, we are different countries with different criminal is to be read as a reference to custody as defined by sub- laws. clause (2). Furthermore, when asked how many persons who had Sub-clause (4) excludes from the previous sub-clauses been convicted of crimes in the UK were serving sentences the detention of a mental patient, for which separate in the Isle of Man, the excellent new prison governor, Mrs. provision is made by the Mental Health Act 1974. I beg to Crosby, had to admit there were none at the present time move clause 1, Mr. Speaker. and never more than about three. Similarly, we were told, there are never more than about three UK residents serving The Speaker: Do I have a seconder, please? sentences for which they have been committed in the Isle

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of Man in UK gaols. Therefore, the argument that our by just supporting amendments that may be put forward?' sentencing policy must be on these grounds is totally and I believe that it needs much more detailed consideration absurdly fallacious. and, before rushing into amendments on this very important Next, the schedule circulated by the department setting matter, we should have the advantage of a committee out the difference between the current parole scheme for hearing all the different views - not only those of myself adult offenders and that proposed under the new legislation and those who would agree with me but those with different is totally inadequate. It is, in fact, taken from the UK White views, and particularly the police, the prison service, the Paper, 'Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public', to which probation service, the judiciary et cetera and we certainly I have referred and does not show the position regarding cannot get the advantage of those views if we just accept those sentenced to under 12 months' detention. amendments. Even more important, at the seminar to which I have Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I move that the Bill should referred, no less a person than His Hon. Deemster Luft, an be referred to a committee of three hon. members of this ex-First Deemster, advised all present, and confirmed under House for consideration and report by 31st March 1995. I further questioning, that in deciding on a sentence a court suggest a year because I believe this is a thing that should could only take into account the nominal length of the be done properly rather than hurried and I believe that the sentence, i.e. the number of years awarded, and not the hon. members who are elected to a committee, if such a fact that a large part of the sentence would be reduced by committee is agreed on, should have proper time to get all licence arrangements. To me this is absolutely absurd, the evidence and views that they require. particularly when the chart to which I have already referred shows that a sentence of, say, four years would effectively Mr. Groves: Mr. Speaker, I would like to second that only mean a sentence of two years. proposal by the hon. member for Glenfaba. I attended the seminar for as long as I could - I had to leave early, I realise. Mr. Brown: You will have to move amendments. I have talked about the proposals, particularly those that concern us most, the early release of detainees, with some Mr. Gilbey: It is argued that this situation is made better of my political colleagues, I have talked about it with by the fact that if the prisoner offends during the part of certain parole officers, I have spoken about the proposals the sentence that he is not serving in prison he will be with certain advocates, with members of my constituency called back to prison. However, again it turns out that if he and also those who live elsewhere, and I cannot answer offends in, say, the last month of a two-year period of the question which the hon. member, the mover of this release on licence he will only be called back for a few resolution, has just posed, that I fully understand what all weeks, i.e. the few weeks left in the total sentence, and not the consequences and implications will be of this Bill. I have to return to prison for the total period of two years, believe that there are some fundamental concerns; a lot of the large part of which he has already been released for. questions were raised at the seminar. The number of This to me is totally and utterly absurd. I believe that if a amendments that are proposed, the proposals that are now person reoffends at all during that period of licence they before us that may turn out to be amendments indicate, I should have to serve in prison a time equivalent to the think, the depth of the concerns and, to a certain extent whole licensed period and not just the time equivalent to perhaps, our lack of understanding of what is proposed. I the length of the licensed period still outstanding when am not convinced that what is being proposed here has they do offend. been struck firmly with the sole interests, the fullest I also believe that the proposals set out in the Bill before interests, of us on the Isle of Man in mind only. I am not us are so complicated that few people, particularly those convinced that that is so, and I would welcome the convicted and, more importantly, the public, will fully opportunity of the widest selection of views to be brought understand them. Indeed, I would ask hon. members to into a committee to consider this whole area in the fullest consider in all honesty how many of them really and truly sense. That, after all, must be the way we can be sure that understand Schedule 2 and could give us a short discourse we bring forward and enact the best of legislation founded on what it sets out. I believe that if we are honest very few on the best of determination of interests and fact. Thank of us could, and I must admit I could not. you, Mr. Speaker. Accordingly, I consider that the whole policy regarding sentences should be reconsidered to find out what is most Mr. Quine: Mr. Speaker, sir, I also wish to support the suitable for this Island and not what may have been most proposal that it go to a committee. Unfortunately I was suitable for the adjacent isles. I believe we need a policy not able to be present when we had the second reading, for custodial sentences that is a real deterrent and although I know my colleagues have put across views on furthermore readily understandable. I am certain that this. something on the lines of the proposals - and note, Mr. I feel that this is a most important piece of legislation. Speaker, I say proposals and I do not mention the word The simple fact is that in the United Kingdom the penal amendments by the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine - system, and to a certain extent the judicial system, has that all those sentences can serve 80 per cent. of their literally ground to a halt; in places it has ground to a halt. custodial sentences and only be released in respect of the The whole approach has not worked and they are looking, remaining 20 per cent., and then only if the courts find and looking hard, to try to find something better, and yet their behaviour satisfactory, is the kind of legislation that we are in effect trying to put in place what they are to a we need. However, you may say, 'Why not deal with this very large extent working with. That to me does not make • Custody Bill — Consideration of Clauses Commenced K412 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 a great deal of sense at all. but the vast majority of the members of the House then Now, as regards this Bill, my principal objection flows end up with just a report and a debate, (1) on that report from this, and that is that, as was pointed out the other from the committee, and (2) then having to start the work day, indeed at the briefing when His Honour Deemster of the Bill anyway. Luft put some questions, judges and magistrates are Now, from my point of view, if members are saying a required by law to pass what they consider to be an Bill should go to a committee, I think there has to be a appropriate sentence as the law stands and not to concern clear reason for that, one of them being there are interested themselves with the date of release and remissions in such parties out there that we feel need to be consulted, and the matters - hon. member Mr. Gilbey mentioned a number of bodies or parties that he felt we should talk to, but those parties The Speaker: Hon. member, would you kindly resume that he is talking about are part of the Department of Home your seat for one moment? Affairs, and this is a departmental Bill from the Department of Home Affairs and is being moved by the member of the Mr. Quine:: Certainly, sir. Department of Home Affairs whose responsibility it is to answer the questions that members of the House may have The Speaker: The motion that the House is asked to on every component of this Bill - every line, every clause, consider is whether or not the Bill be referred to a every bit. Now, I have to say I think it is unfortunate in the committee of three members. It is that issue that I would extreme if, every time a piece of legislation comes on, we like you to address. are sending it off to committee and saying, 'This is something we really need to look at a little bit more in Mr. Quine: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am making the depth.' Every piece of legislation that goes through this case for it to go, sir. I think one has but to look at the House needs to be looked at in depth; that is our job in this substance of this Bill to see why it should go to a House. Our job in this House is to deal with legislation committee. There are compelling reasons why this Bill first and foremost and I believe we should keep that in should go to committee and that is the point I was trying mind. to make. Mr. Gilbey, who moved that it go to a committee, made a case about why he felt it was so important to go to The Speaker: Well, as long as you restrict your remarks committee and yet he has two proposals, that is all, to to an outline of the issues. amend the Bill. (Interjection) Exactly, but Mr. Gilbey has two, another member has one proposal and another member Mr. Quine: Absolutely, sir, (Laughter) there is has a sheaf of them - why should they not be considered absolutely no connection with the fact that I was absent here on the floor of the House? Why should the member from the second reading - none at all. in charge of the Bill not have to make his case in public? Why do we have to send a Bill like this, which the hon. The Speaker: I am anxious that you do not bring into member says potentially is one of the most important Bills, account those issues that you might have addressed at the why into private for consideration? It should be dealt with second reading. here in public - (Interjection) Thank you, Mr. Gilbey - by the members of this House. That is the job of the House, Mr. Quine: No, not at all, sir. The point I am making is and I just find it strange that every time we might have a that there is an overriding case to have this examined in difficulty - not we have, but we might have a difficulty - detail because the whole concept of the Bill hinges or is we are saying it must go to a committee. based upon what is happening in the UK. That is a matter Now, some of the points that are raised and have been of fact that that is not functioning. We are to a large extent raised - there has been a seminar and there have been other seeking to put something similar in place and we should opportunities at the second reading, and there will be be looking at other alternatives before we get into the nitty- detailed opportunity at consideration - are going to be gritty of the clauses in this Bill, and that is the substance answered in a private place where the majority of members of my argument. I believe that those are the reasons why of this House will not have an input. I believe that a matter we should put this to a committee and look at it in detail, of this importance should first and foremost be debated sir. here in the House, and if the House gets to a stage where there is a real difficulty - and that might be schedule 2, and Mr. Brown: Mr. Speaker, I stand up, really, to oppose it might not be but it might be - if the House really is the committee and mainly because I do not think a case unhappy about that it can say, 'Let's put schedule 2 to a has been made for this Bill to go to committee. I have to committee for a couple of weeks,' not for a year, but for a say I get a little bit concerned as time goes on that in fact shorter time, because we might find that 90 per cent. of we seem to be referring every Bill that just has more pages what is in the Bill there is not a problem with, yet we are than some to a committee for what members call 'detailed talking about sending it off for a year. Now, let me just consideration'. It is the job of this House to give detailed make that point: the hon. member says, 'Let us send it off consideration to legislation; that is why we are here, and to a committee for a year,' but the same member and other by sending a Bill to a committee you are actually sending members who are suggesting that are also people who in it to a small group of members of this House who might another place and in here have been critical that in fact the well then have a detailed consideration of the legislation, Isle of Man legislation has not been updated. So what they

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are saying on one hand is 'We will delay it even another hon. mover to committee flagged it up - schedule 2 is and year' and in the meantime we have to stick with what we was pointed out to us again at the seminar as being the have got, and yet there might only be 10 per cent. of the meat of the sandwich in this particular issue, and Bill, and, from the sounds of what the hon. member said, unfortunately it is from clause 1 that schedule 2 actually his big concern is schedule 2. Well, should we not first starts to take effect, and one of the questions which certainly debate it in here? And if schedule 2 is a problem, then the came up, for example, and schedule 2 was lengthy, there hon. member may be able to make a strong case for it to are 17 sections to schedule 2, and the very final one, the be sent to a committee of the House maybe for a week, amendment of this schedule, the department may by order maybe for a month, I do not know, but I honestly think it is substitute some other period than the four years specified, wrong to just say, 'Here we are, there are bits in it I might and we are talking about short-termers, which seem to have a problem with, let's send it off to a committee and cause them most concern at the seminar, and indeed in (b) let's give them a year to look at it.' The work of this House of that the department may amend by substituting some is to work in public, in committee; that is what the House other proportion of a detainee's detention period. Those is about. We are here to debate the content of this Bill, and sorts of things - we were told quite specifically by the new I would suggest to hon. members: let us get on with the governor of the prison that if we tried to interfere it would Bill and if a real problem comes up because of whatever is cause concern, it might not be able to work. Now, okay, I put forward, then the House can decide whether that am sure that if we can get down to some detail there will individual problem or a collection of them need to go off be a method which will satisfy members, but I think it is to a committee for a short time. I honestly believe we can so complicated in the times that courts impose - whether deal with this Bill quite easily here in public and I am they be short-term, long-term or medium-term, there seem absolutely sure that the views of the hon. member for Ayre to be set statutory periods, there are set proportions of those and the hon. member for Glenfaba, which may be to one periods that in fact people can be released at and set dates side, and of other members that may be a little bit in the that they would be released at - because of that sort of middle or to the other side - that we can get a Bill that will technical detail, whilst concurring with the sentiment be acceptable. I would say: Do not go to committee, let us expressed by the hon. member for Castletown, I would get on and see if we can progress the Bill here in the House, have to support on this occasion this Bill going to a which is the right place to do it, and let us make sure that committee. the member, who is member of the Department of Home Affairs, can justify why the department feels this is the Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, I recently, some five weeks way to go. ago, had the opportunity at a forum to discuss certain matters in relation to this Bill and previous legislation with Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, I have a very great deal of a group, a mixture of prison warders, prison psychologists, sympathy indeed with the views just put forward by the ex-prisoners, social workers, all the people that make up hon. member for Castletown, there can be no question the very fraternity that we are talking about here. It was about that, but unfortunately on this occasion I happened quite clear from that debate - all of them, including the ex- to attend a seminar, invited to the seminar to go along to prisoners, prisoners out on licence, the lot - that the situation learn about the Custody Bill, and my attendance at the that has occurred in Britain is not working, and what has seminar rather brings me to the view that unfortunately not been taken into consideration there and the main reason this is something which does need at this stage to go to a by the prisoners and certainly the warders and the social committee. I do concur with the hon. member for workers was that they never costed out the effects of change Castletown that I am unhappy that the hon. mover has in the system, the amount of cash they would need for suggested that maybe the committee should sit for a year; extra social workers if you bring prisoners out early, already I would certainly hope that the committee would respond in the Isle of Man there are half-way houses, that is the and reply and get back to this House as soon as is practical, order of the day, financed by Government, you are going and I am sure they would, but I do think there is a to need more than the space you have created, you are requirement. going to need more places. All this has to be gone into and It was fairly evident at the seminar, under questioning, all this should be thought out and it has not been given, that in fact there was disquiet from members, that we were really, the thought that is necessary. If you want to follow importing virtually, in effect, in totality UK legislation and Britain, fine, just pass it and that will keep the equilibrium a case being put to us at the seminar was that there was a working, but it will not solve the problems that you are requirement to do it, otherwise the reciprocal part of it going to face when you change it, and this is a mistake we would fall down, and that part alone, I suggest, the have made before. difficulties which members were seeing there, should be Now, the member for Castletown, rightly, says sufficient enough for this House to say, 'Well, okay, maybe everything goes to committee. If that is the will of the there is a need for some sort of balance between UK House, they are part of the tools of the House's method of legislation and Isle of Man legislation,' but we must not resolving the problem. We are not, as he indicates, purely always get hung up on the thought that because there are here to debate as a committee in public; we are given certain transfer agreements between both bodies theirs is always privileges and certain Standing Orders, including this one, right and ours is always wrong. to move it to a committee to assist the House in coming to Now, the committee must consider that and the hon. a just, a fair and a proper decision. They are not just there member for Castletown, for example, rightly - because the to get rid of the problem; it is to give us the ability to come • Custody Bill — Consideration of Clauses Commenced K414 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

to the right decisions. been already previously made to send it to committee and Now, on this resolution to go to committee I am that failed. conscious of this one year, because I think I certainly would I do believe that the principles of the Bill will, by the agree with him there, I do not see that bit of logic and I very nature of going through the clauses one by one, listened carefully to the member moving it, so I would become a lot clearer as we proceed. The clauses are logical like, Mr. Speaker, to move an amendment to its going to and if they are taken logically... I would suggest to hon. committee and the committee reporting back to the House members also that we are not exactly bogged down with without a time, because it depends on how much work legislation at the moment, we may be bogged down with they find; it might be longer than a year for all I know, and other matters in the Keys but certainly not with legislation, I do not like that idea of fixing the year. So if I can do that, and I would say that perhaps we could well spend time in Mr. Speaker, maybe that will resolve that problem. the Keys actually debating some legislation rather than But I believe, hon. members, a lot of the questions have other aspects. (Members: Hear, hear.) not been answered, and rather than debate them here and I would like to turn attention to the Bill and reiterate then send them clause by clause, which happened in a that there are three basic reasons for this Bill. The present recent sitting of the House - we refused to go to committee, requirement for different accommodation for different then we still finished up putting the clauses to a committee, classes of detainees has caused considerable which is the same thing. If you have got a problem of the embarrassment to the department at times, so one of the magnitude we have got here in the social life of the Isle of main aspects of this Bill is that it will transfer from the Man and the way prisoners are treated and the custody judiciary to the executive the decision as to what kinds of sentences et cetera, Mr. Speaker, better to get it right accommodation to provide. That is one basic aspect. through a committee of the House who are servants of the Another aspect relates to the Children and Young Persons House; they are not some little private clique, they have a Act, and a lot of the Bill is consolidation and I do not see duty and a responsibility to come back and explain in that, certainly in the first part of the Bill, we cannot debate writing why they think we should take a certain path. That the clauses one by one and consolidate existing legislation. is the beauty and that is the modus operandi of a committee The department recognises, especially after the seminar, of this House, not for their own self-opinions but to come the difficulty that certain members have with schedule 2, back to the House and in the 18 years I have been here that which is introduced by clause 23, and, as has been is what has always happened, and if the House disagrees mentioned by the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, with their recommendations so be it, that is democracy. there is an element in the Bill which allows for those I believe on this occasion in two issues: one is, what percentages to be altered by the department coming to happens to these prisoners if we take this up? What about Tynwald with new proposals in the light of experience once the staffing et cetera, et cetera, that is going to occur? The the Act is up and running. second one which I am concerned about in this particular There has been a lot of criticism to say that we are Bill is dealing with the situation which I cannot accept, following the UK for the sake of it. There is no obligation where we have prisoners who will have come out on on us to conform to the United Kingdom, but I would argue licence, they could, if they are a long server, get up to four that conformity is desirable if only to remove difficulties years remission, they come out and do two years and no in relation to prisoners transferred to or from the United problem. They then re-offend in some minor way and their Kingdom who will find themselves eligible for release on licence is withdrawn, they only go back and do the two different days here and in the United Kingdom. years, the other two years that he has been out are not The Bill in some areas is quite complicated, there is no mentioned. Now, I cannot see any justice in that. They doubt about that, and schedule 2 is probably the most have borrowed two years' time from the public and then complicated area, but I am concerned today that we have they have re-offended after they have realised they have reverted back to a second reading debate when really this forgotten they are out on licence, and the public are debate is about going to a committee and I do not want to handicapped by them being given two years' holiday. That fall foul of the rules of the House, but the argument that is not justice, hon. members, and I cannot accept it and I Deemster Arthur Luft, hon. member for Council, put want the committee to address that. forward at the seminar has been mentioned in the debate Mr. Speaker, if the House wants to go to committee, do here and I am quite happy, when the time comes, to debate not be offended because we regularly do it. It may be that point and argue the opposite to what the hon. member because the legislation we have got is difficult for for Glenfaba has put forward in his presentation to go to interpretation and difficult to implement and it is the committee. committee's job to come back and tell us where those The aspects of sentencing - we must not forget that the difficulties can be got over. Mr. Speaker I support, with courts determine the length of the sentence and that this the amendment I have put forward, going to a committee. Bill is a framework for the courts to work to. The way that I beg to move: legislation in the United Kingdom has been operated, how the courts have operated, how the probation services have Delete 'by 31st March 1995'. operated, the economics of their problems in the United Kingdom are not our problems and this Bill is not intended Mr. Corkill: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak against the to follow that economic path because we do not have those proposal to go to committee. I firmly believe the floor of economic problems; it is purely a case of practicalities, of this House is the place to debate this Bill. An attempt has consolidation, and I would urge members to seriously think

Custody Bill — Consideration of Clauses Commenced HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994 K415

about the position that we are at here today before voting which has gone off to a committee and been there over a to go to a committee. A committee that reports in a year year when it has not been intended, I do not believe, by tends to be 18 months in my short experience in this House this House to do that, but I do not believe that this is the and I think, after all the consultation that has gone on with way forward with this Bill; we are still going to be the Home Affairs and the bodies that Home Affairs is discussing the clauses stage when it comes back to the responsible for, we would be going over ground not once, House, and even then it may have to be amended after the twice but possibly three times which, to my mind, is not amendments suggested by any committee. efficient, not necessarily good government and I would ask members to oppose going to committee basically The Speaker: Hon. members, before we proceed, because I am quite sure that the department and myself Standing Orders provide that we should terminate our can answer members' problems as we go through the Bill. proceedings, unless the House decides otherwise, at 5.30. I would recommend to the House that we continue this Mr. Duggan: I just want to second Mr. Delaney's debate as I would like to think it is drawing to a conclusion amendment, sir. (Members: Hear, hear.) I call upon -

The Speaker: I am sorry, you cannot at this moment of Mr. Cringle: May we have a guillotine at a quarter to time. I call upon the hon. member for Peel. six and have the vote, sir?

Mrs. Hannan: Thank you, Vainstyr Loayreyder. The The Speaker: No, we will, for the time being, if the member for Ayre stated that the UK prison system had House agrees with me, carry on in the hope that we are broken down and I would agree with Mr. Quine but for a drawing to a conclusion. (Members: Vote!) No, just one totally different reason. In the United Kingdom more moment, I call upon the hon. member for Michael. people are being sent to prison, more people are being put into prison and this is not stopping crime in the United Mr. Cannan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be very Kingdom, but I would hope that by bringing about some brief but I rise primarily to second the amendment of the of the changes that are suggested in this legislation we are hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, in which he being more humane - not necessarily more humane in the moved that this go to a committee and report back to this UK but more humane than we have been in the past - and House without a time limit. I believe that it is important it therefore I see that is no reason why we should send this go to a committee, that the committee can investigate legislation to a committee to bring in any stiffer sentences widely and, when we get back with the report, we will all or lessening the hope that people sent to prison should be better informed to go through the clauses singly, one have. by one, which we will do anyway, but that is important The member for Glenfaba suggested that custody was and I hope that this matter can now be drawn to a a deterrent. However, custody is not a deterrent. Being conclusion and a vote, sir. detected, being caught, being charged is the only deterrent and I think you can lock people up for ever; that does stop The Speaker: Can I call upon the member for Douglas them offending society but it does not necessarily make South, Mr. Duggan. Did you wish to - them any better people unless we as a society are willing to cope with some of the problems that society itself has Mr. Duggan: I was trying to second before, sir, but created. you barred me from doing so.

The Speaker: Hon. member, if I could interrupt you, The Speaker: Yes, I did, that is quite right, (Laughter) the issue that is being debated at the moment is whether or because other members had caught my eye. The hon. not the Bill be referred to a committee. member, Mr. Cretney.

Mrs. Hannan: Yes, agreed, Mr. Speaker, I object to Mr. Cretney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to this Bill going to a committee. We had a seminar; members move the vote now be put. may not have liked what they heard at the seminar or what they heard at the second reading. However, I do believe Members: Hear, hear. that the House of Keys is the place to debate a Bill such as this. The members of the public can be here if they wish; The Speaker: Is that agreed, hon. members? (It was they do not at the moment. There is no reason why the agreed.) I call upon the hon. member to reply, who press should not be in while we are debating it and while proposed the motion that the Bill be referred, but before I we are going through every clause with a fine tooth-comb do so, as mover of the amendment do you wish to reply, and discussing and voting on every piece clause and every sir? piece of legislation that is before us. Going to committee and getting rid of a piece of legislation for a year is not the Mr. Delaney: Mr. Speaker, no, I just hope the House answer to progressing legislation on to the statute book accepts I am just trying to get a common-sense solution to and we have seen many pieces of legislation that have been a problem. debated very quickly through this House, have not been looked at to any great degree, and we have had legislation The Speaker: Thank you. • Custody Bill — Consideration of Clauses Commenced K416 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 26th APRIL, 1994

Mr. Gilbey: Mr. Speaker, I shall be very quick and only For: Messrs. Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. make three points: one, my resolution did say 'by 31st Cringle, Cretney, Duggan, Delaney, Groves, Kniveton March' so the report could be earlier. However, I am quite and the Speaker -11 happy to accept the amendment of the hon. member for East Douglas. Secondly, I think the hon. mover of the Bill, Against: Messrs. North, Walker, Corrin, Brown, May, or another person, said 'Ah, well, the police, the prison Corlett, Mrs. Hannan, Messrs. Bell, Karran, Corkill and service, the probation service have all been consulted about Gelling - 11 this Bill because they are all members of the Department of Home Affairs.' Of course they are, but what they will The Speaker: Hon. members, the number of votes cast not have had a chance to be consulted about is any in respect of this motion are 11 in favour and 11 against, alternatives that might come up in the form of amendments so I am in the position of having to cast a casting vote and from hon. members of this House. They will not be here I am going to take a little bit of advice, although I would to give their views on those amendments - like you to know that I have made up my mind, but I do want advice as to whether my thoughts are correct. My Mr. Brown: They never will be. casting vote is against the motion.

Mr. Gilbey: There would be if there was a committee Mr. Delaney: May I raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker? because the proposals could be put forward - The Speaker: You certainly may. Mrs. Hannan: Not here. Mr. Delaney: May I also ask for clarification under Mr. Brown: No. Standing Orders? You will have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that the resolution as amended was in front of the House and Mr. Gilbey: - so this is the great pity if we do not put it there was one member absent for the amendment to that to a committee, and I think we should so that those very resolution and then he joined this House for the main important members of the public sector can comment on resolution. It is courtesy, in my time in this House, when various proposals. Finally, I would say that of course the such a thing happens that the member remains outside the discussions of the committee could be in public and I think House as he missed the amendment. this would be a very suitable committee to hold its deliberations in public, and if I had anything to do with it The Speaker: My understanding is that if any member I would propose that was the case. of this House is in the chamber when a division is called he may partake in that division. That is my view on that Members: Hear, hear. matter. Now, I think it is right that we should adjourn and for The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion that is before the record I would just state that we have started the House is that the Custody Bill be referred to a consideration of the clauses stage and that clause 1 has committee of three members for consideration and report been moved by the member in charge of the Bill, the by 31st March 1995, and to that we have an amendment in member for Onchan, Mr. Corkill, which proposal has been the name of the member for Douglas East which would seconded by the hon. member for Middle, and it is at that delete the words: 'by 31st March 1995'. I will therefore stage that we will resume the debate hopefully at our next put the amendment first. Will all those in favour of the sitting. The House, hon. members, will now adjourn and amendment please say aye; to the contrary say no. The the adjournment will be until 10 o'clock on Tuesday 3rd ayes have it. May in this chamber. The House adjourned at 5.42 p.m. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

For: Messrs. Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Cringle, May, Cretney, Duggan, Delaney, Groves, CORRIGENDUM Kniveton and the Speaker - 12 House of Keys (Tuesday, 22nd March 1994), page Against: Messrs. North, Corrin, Brown, Corlett, Mrs. K345, column 1, line 35, please amend the heading to read: Hannan, Messrs. Bell, Karran, Corkill and Gelling - 9 SEWERAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL - The Speaker: Hon. members, the motion has been SECOND READING APPROVED approved by the House with 12 votes in favour and 9 against. I will now put the motion to you as amended. Will and the footers on pages K345 and K346 accordingly. all those in favour please say aye; to the contrary say no. The noes have it.

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

Corrigendum