126/19 TYNWALD Pages 14.7.09.Indd

Volume 126, No. 19 ISSN 1742-2256

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N (HANSARD)

Douglas, Tuesday, 14th July 2009

Published by the Ofﬁ ce of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man. © Court of Tynwald, 2009 Printed by The Copy Shop Limited, 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man Price Band K 1106 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009

Present:

The President of Tynwald (The Hon. N Q Cringle, OBE)

In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. R M E Paterson), The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Mr D Butt, Mr D A Callister, Mrs C M Christian, Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie, Mr E G Lowey, Mr J R Turner and Mr G H Waft, with Mr J King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Chief Minister (The Hon. J A Brown) (Castletown); Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Hon. A V Craine and Hon. A R Bell (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mr T Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Hon. A J Earnshaw and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan); Hon. G M Quayle (Middle); Mr R W Henderson and Mr J R Houghton (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mr W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood (Douglas East); Mr C G Corkish MBE and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West); Mr G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Mr J P Watterson, Hon. P A Gawne and Mr Q B Gill (Rushen); with Mr R Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1107 T126

Business Transacted Page Prayers ...... 1109 Tribute to Brian Cottier, former Gard Coadee ...... 1109 Tribute to His Honour Arthur Christian Luft CBE ...... 1109 Leave of absence granted ...... 1109 Bills for signature – Fees and Duties (Amendment) Bill 2009; Terrorism (Finance) Bill 2009 ...... 1109 Papers laid before the Court ...... 1109

Questions for Oral Answer 1. Scope and Structure of Government Report – Publication ...... 1111 2. KSF (IOM) funds held by UK authorities – Legal position ...... 1111 3. Legislative session 2008-09 – Legislation not introduced ...... 1112 4. Treasury Value for Money Committee Report 2008 – Implementation of efﬁ ciency measures ...... 1113 5. Members of the Legislative Council – Direct election; scrutiny role ...... 1114 6. Public sector pensions – Reducing future liability ...... 1115 7. Treasury staff – Workload ...... 1116 8. Future European Savings Directive – Decisions without Tynwald approval ...... 1116

Welcome to ofﬁ cers from RAF Valley ...... 1118 Gill Smith from Brisbane – Welcome ...... 1118

9. Non-disclosed payments – Criteria ...... 1119 10. IOM–UK Treaty Agreement – Response to letter re alleged breach ...... 1119 11. FD8 waivers 2009 – Reasons for issue ...... 1120 12. Venda – Decision to award contract ...... 1123 13. Personal Allowance Credit – Availability only to over-18s ...... 1124 14. Non-payment of taxes – Recover ...... 1125 15. Local authorities – Efﬁ cient running by the clerk – Question ruled sub judice ...... 1126 16. Depositors’ Compensation Scheme – Proposals for replacement ...... 1127 17. Manx uplands – Illegal use of motor vehicles ...... 1127 18. Glen Auldyn, Narradale and Millennium Way – Illegal use of motor vehicles ...... 1128 19. Millennium Way, East Baldwin – Illegal use of motor vehicles ...... 1129 20. Public and private land with animals – Illegal use of motor vehicles ...... 1130 21. Illegal use of motor vehicles – DAFF and Police control in conservation areas ...... 1131 22. Areas of Special Scientiﬁ c Interest – Locations and future designation ...... 1132 23. Wildlife Sites System – Joint working party ...... 1132 24. European Union – Future impact on Isle of Man ...... 1133 25. Suspension of pupils – Guidelines for schools ...... 1136 26. Disability Act – Cost of consultants re introduction ...... 1138 27. NHS dental services – Plans to improve management ...... 1139 28. Health Services – Plans to improve management ...... 1140

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to permit remaining Oral Questions to be taken – Motion lost ...... 1140 Thanks to staff re Tynwald Day ...... 1141

Questions for Written Answer 29. Isle of Man Prison – Dental visits ...... 1141 30. Termination of Reciprocal Health Agreement – Proposals ...... 1141 31. Interception Modernisation Programme, UK – Statement ...... 1142 32. Isle of Man Constabulary – Mobile phones used 2006-08 ...... 1142 33. Illegal use of motor vehicles in countryside – Police and DAFF joint operations ...... 1142 34. Handling complaints against former Deputy Chief Constable – Funds for ‘Cheshire investigation’ ...... 1142 35. ‘Improper covert surveillance within police headquarters’ – Investigating allegations ...... 1143 36. Local authorities – Outstanding audited accounts ...... 1143 37. Recycled material – Costs of kerbside collection; revenue ...... 1143 38. Southern Plan – Current position ...... 1143 39. Prospective home buyers – Possible assistance schemes ...... 1144 40. Domestic properties for sale – Estimated breakdown of number ...... 1144 41. TT 2009 visitor numbers – Comparison with previous years ...... 1145 42. Villa Arcade and Gaiety Theatre – Programme for remainder of summer season ...... 1145 43. Long-term unemployed – Government policy ...... 1146 1108 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009

44. DoT public rights of way and footpaths – Transfer to DAFF for maintenance ...... 1147 45. Conserving public rights of way – Closing off/limiting use of certain areas ...... 1147 46. Hedge cutting – Respecting wildlife habitats ...... 1147 47. Douglas and Peel port developments – Costs of projects and returns ...... 1148 48. Negative RPI and decreased oil prices – Curbing rising air fares ...... 1149 49. Climate change – Policies and strategies ...... 1149 50. Legal representation – Increasing hourly rates and hours for Legal Aid ...... 1150 51. Tynwald Auditor General Bill – Issue for consultation ...... 1152 52. Capital works for Government – Contract award to company with outstanding debt ...... 1152 53. Income tax assessments – Number outstanding at 30th April; 2008-09 tax returns ...... 1152 54. European Savings Directive withholding tax – Treasury consultation and implementation ...... 1153 55. European Savings Directive – Withholding tax; exchange of information; UK preference for Isle of Man ...... 1153 56. High inﬂ ation on Island’s reserves – Actions to offset impact ...... 1154 57. Terminally ill patients – Clariﬁ cation on advance directives ...... 1154 58. Suspensions from secondary schools – Number since September 2008 ...... 1154 59. Rushen Primary School – Potential low-cost activity hall for Rushen ...... 1155 60. TT winter press conference, Villa Marina – Total cost; payments to bring guests ...... 1155 61. TT 2009 – Payments to competitors ...... 1155 62. Port St Mary Railway Station – Leasing and redevelopment ...... 1156 63. TT 2008 and 2009 costs – TTXGP marshals; bike and rider collection service ...... 1156 64. RESA contract – Budget for silt from River Mersey ...... 1156 65. IRIS in south of Island – Cost of electricity to run ...... 1157 66. Flap gates in Peel and Douglas – Cost of various incidents and dredging ...... 1157

The Court adjourned at 1.04 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

Orders of the Day 7. Guaranteed Minimum Pensions – Statement by the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission ...... 1158 4. Reciprocal Health Agreement – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security ...... 1160 5. Progress made on review of planning system – Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment ...... 1161 6. Minimum Wage – Statement by the Minister for Trade and Industry ...... 1166

Bill for signature – Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 ...... 1167

8. Airport Pavement Refurbishment – Expenditure approved ...... 1168 9. Johnny Watterson’s Lane – Outer Link Stage 3 – Expenditure approved ...... 1170 10. Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved ...... 1172

The Court adjourned at 5.02 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.35 p.m.

11. Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production) – Expenditure approved ...... 1179 12. Department of Education – Supplementary Vote – Motion carried ...... 1183 13. St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved ...... 1184 14. Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 1 and 2 environmental improvement works – Expenditure approved ...... 1191 15. Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Temporary works to short life dwellings – Expenditure approved ...... 1193 16. Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 3 and 5A pre-contract costs – Expenditure approved ...... 1195 17. Western Civic Amenity Site – Extension works – Debate commenced ...... 1197

Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to enable business to continue until 9.30 p.m...... 1200

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved ...... 1201

Procedural ...... 1214

The Court adjourned at 9.48 p.m.

All published Offi cial Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im Offi cial Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:- Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted upon application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Offi ce, Legislative Buildings, Douglas, Isle of Man IM1 3PW. Papers Laid TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1109 T126

where his contributions were succinct and very much to the Tynwald heart of the matter. Arthur loved the theatre. It did not matter whether he was in the audience or, in his younger days, on the stage. He The Court met at 10.30 a.m. also had a great love of cricket, a summertime sport which he would watch for hours on end, and his prowess in the garden was, in fact, a tribute to the way in which he lived his [MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] life at home in Victoria Road. We remember, then, a strong character and our thoughts and prayers today are with his wife, Dorothy, their sons and extended family. The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please be upstanding Hon. Members, I ask you to rise and stand for a few for the President of Tynwald. moments in recognition of our guard, Brian Cottier, and His Honour Deemster Arthur Luft. The President: Hon. Members, I call upon the Lord Bishop to lead us in prayers. Leave of absence granted

PRAYERS The President: Thank you, Hon Members. Hon. Members, the Hon. Member for Douglas East, The Lord Bishop: In this week in which some, at least, Mrs Cannell, is indisposed today and the Hon. Member may remember the Spanish Armada, let us use the Prayer of for Douglas West, Mr Corkish, will be joining us later this Sir Francis Drake: morning. O Lord God, when thou givest to thy servants to endeavour any great matter, grant us also to know that it is not the beginning, but the continuing of the same until it be thoroughly fi nished which yieldeth the true glory. Through BILLS FOR SIGNATURE him who for the fi nishing of thy work laid down his life for us, our redeemer, Jesus Christ. Fees and Duties (Amendment) Bill 2009 Amen. Terrorism (Finance) Bill 2009 The President: Hon. Members, we have two Bills for signature, the Terrorism (Finance) Bill 2009 and the Fees Tribute to Brian Cottier, former Gard Coadee and Duties (Amendment) Bill. Hon. Members, if you are happy, we will continue with The President: Hon. Members, it is with regret that we our business while they are being signed. recall the passing of our Gard Coadee, Brian Cottier. Brian became a guard in May 2003 and remained with us here in this building until October 2008, when ill health meant his retirement. Brian was a very well-respected Papers laid before the Court character in his home town of Peel and the attendance at his funeral in the Cathedral was an indicator of the regard The President: Hon. Members, before I call upon the in which he was held there. Naturally, our thoughts are with Clerk to lay papers, please note that there is an error in the his wife and family. Statutory Document number at Item 40, the Mental Health Act 1998 – Mental Health (Transfer of Patients) (Equivalent Provisions of Relevant Territories) Regulations 2009. That Statutory Document number should read ‘SD No 117/09’ Tribute to His Honour Arthur Christian Luft CBE and not ‘SD No 177/09’. The Post Offi ce Act 1993 – Post Offi ce Charges Scheme The President: Hon Members, we also acknowledge 2009 has been reissued due to the date recorded in paragraph the death of a former Member of the Legislative Council, 1.2 having read ‘June’ instead of ‘July’. His Honour Arthur Christian Luft CBE. Arthur Luft was Again, Hon. Members, the Proceeds of Crime (Money truly a remarkable man, with a zest for life and attention to Laundering: Permitted Disclosures) (Credit Institutions and detail in all that he did. Admitted to the Manx Bar in 1940, Financial Institutions) Order 2009 (Statutory Document he had a distinguished legal career, becoming Her Majesty’s 458/09) has been revised and recirculated, due to page 2 Attorney General in December 1972 and First Deemster in having been omitted from the original document which was December 1979. sent to Members. He sat as a Member of this Court, Tynwald Court, Hon. Members with those notes, I call upon the Clerk to as Attorney General. However, Hon. Members, as the lay papers – and Hon. Members, at the same time, Clerk, I First Deemster had ceased to be an ex offi cio Member of wonder if we can deal with the Supplementary Order Paper the Legislative Council in 1975, it was not until Arthur’s and the laying of the papers on the Supplementary Order retirement that he returned to the Legislative Council, and Paper, Hon. Members, at the same time. (A Member: therefore Tynwald, in 1988. He served, Hon. Members, with Agreed.) distinction until 1998 and I can certainly recall many debates I call on the Clerk so to do.

Prayers : Tribute to Brian Cottier, former Gard Coadee : Tribute to His Honour Arthur Christian Luft CBE Leave of absence granted Bills for signature: Fees and Duties (Amendment) Bill 2009; Terrorism (Finance) Bill 2009 Papers laid before the Court 1110 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Papers Laid

The Clerk: Mr President, sir, I lay before the court the Pension Schemes Act 1995 – papers, as amended, listed at Item 1 – also the papers at Item Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 1 of the supplementary Order Paper. 2009 [SD No 486/09]

Casino Act 1986 – Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 – Casino Licence [GC No 25/09] Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering: Permitted Disclosures) (Credit Institutions and Financial Institutions) Road Trafﬁ c Act 1985 – Order 2009 [SD No 458/09] Driving Licences (Foreign Licences) Regulations 2009 Proceeds of Crime (Application of Police Powers and [SD No 487/09] Procedures Act 1998) Order 2009 [SD No 456/09] Proceeds of Crime (Code of Practice: Part 4 Functions) Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 – Order 2009 [SD No 455/09] Licensing and Registration of Vehicles (Amendment) Regulations 2009 [SD No 488/09] Cremation Act 1957 – Cremation (Fees) Regulations 2009 [SD No 475/09] Road Transport Act 2001 – Road Transport Act 2001 (Revocation of Schedule 2) Historic Buildings Conservation (Amendment) Scheme Order 2009 [SD No 181/09] 2009 – Historic Buildings Conservation (Amendment) Scheme Representation of the People Act 1995 – 2009 [GC No 22/09] Election Fees Order 2009 [SD No 408/09] Visitor Facility Improvement Scheme 2009 – Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Visitor Facility Improvement Scheme 2009 [GC No High Court Fees Order 2009 [SD No 407/09] 23/09]

Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Reports Export Control (Amendment) Order 2009 (Application) Department of Transport Report on the Consultation on Order 2009 [SD No 447/09] the effects of the Recommendations proposed to the Road Transport Act 2001 presented to Tynwald in March 2009 Income Tax Act 1970 – [GR No 31/09] Income Tax (Attributable Proﬁ ts) (Relevant Company) Department of Transport IRIS Regional Sewage Treatment (Amendment) Order 2009 [SD No 479/09] Strategy Business Case Report [GR No 26/09] Treasury Report on International Taxation Strategy [GR No Income Tax Act 2003 – 32/09] Income Tax (Australia, France, Germany and United Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2008 – 09 [GR No Kingdom) (Amendment) Order 2009 [SD No 459/09] 22/09] Report of the Council of Ministers’ Sub Committee Financial Services Act 2008 – Management of Government Owned Property [GR No Compensation of Depositors (Amendment) (No. 2) 24/09] Regulations 2009 [SD No 466/09] Second Report of the Select Committee on the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company [PP93/09] Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 2009 [SD No 468/09] Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper Forestry Act 1984 – Forestry (General) Byelaws 2009 [SD No 481/09] Companies Act 2006 (of the United Kingdom Parliament) – Organic Farming Scheme 2004 (Amendment) Scheme 2009 Companies Act 2006 (Extension of Takeover Panel – Provisions) (Isle of Man) Order 2009 [UK SI 2009 No Organic Farming Scheme 2004 (Amendment) Scheme 1378] 2009 [GC No 21/09] Wage and Salary Agreements 2008-09 Mental Health Act 1998 – Mental Health (Transfer of Patients) (Equivalent Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Provisions of Relevant Territories) Regulations 2009 Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Enforcing [SD No 117/09] Authorities) Order 2009 [SD No 460/09]

Social Security Act 2000 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Social Security Legislation (Beneﬁ ts) (Application) (No. Value Added Tax (Reduced Rate) (Children’s Car Seats) 3) Order 2009 [SD No 484/09] Order 2009 [SD No 454/09]

Social Security Administration Act 1992 – Currency Act 1992 – Budgeting Loans (Recovery by Deductions from Beneﬁ ts) Currency (25 Years of the Angel) Order 2009 [SD No (Amendment) Regulations 2009 [SD No 485/09] 285/09]

Papers laid before the Court Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1111 T126

Currency (20th Anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall Crown) Order 2009 [SD No 473/09] Questions for Oral Answer

High Court Act 1991 – CHIEF MINISTER Rules of the High Court (Company Officers Disqualifi cation) 2009 [SD No 480/09] Scope and Structure of Government Report Publication The above document is subject to negative procedure 1. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Post Offi ce Act 1993 – Chief Minister: Post Offi ce Charges Scheme 2009 [SD No 509/09] Whether it is his intention to ever publish a response to Immigration Act 1971 – the Scope and Structure of Government Report, when Immigration (Designation of Travel Bans) Order 2009 [SD in his manifesto he promised to ‘undertake early and No 491/09] full consideration of the Report and report back to Tynwald’? Superannuation Act 1984 – Superannuation (Clerk of Tynwald’s Department) The President: We turn, then, to the Question Paper, Hon. Determination (No. 2) 2009 [SD No 482/09] Members, and I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Watterson.

Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts – Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. Notiﬁ cation of Report [PP88/09] I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.

Appointed Day Orders – The President: I call upon the Chief Minister. Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 (Appointed Day) (No. 3) Order 2009 [SD No 392/09] The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr Criminal Justice Act 2001 (Appointed Day) (No. 9) Order President. 2009 [SD No 450/09] I did initiate early and full consideration of the independent Report on the Scope and Structure of Government and Reports I confirm that I continue consideration of that Report. Annual Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Unfortunately, due to other more pressing issues, especially Initiatives July 2009 [PP94/09] during the last year, progress has not been as I had hoped. Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Report for 2008/09 I conﬁ rm that I will report to Tynwald as soon as I am in a [GR No 21/09] position to do so, sir. Report of the Civil Service Commission to the Chief Minister 1st April 2008 to 31st March 2009 [GR No 27/09] The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. Council of Ministers Annual Report of the Gaelic Broadcasting Committee year ended 31st March 2009 [GR No 28/09] Mr Watterson: Mr President, I would like to press the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme: Annual Report of the Chief Minister. He still has not answered the Question. When Scheme Manager for the year ended 31st March 2008 will he deliver on a two-and-a-half-year-old promise to report Depositors’ Compensation Scheme (in relation to the on the Scope and Structure of Government Report? Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008) Annual Report of the Scheme Manager for the year ended 31st The Chief Minister: When I am ready to, sir. March 2009 Depositors’ Compensation Scheme (in relation to the Banking Business (Compensation of Depositors) Regulations 1991) KSF (IOM) funds held by UK authorities Annual Report of the Scheme Manager for the year ended Legal position 31st March 2009 Department of Local Government and Environment Housing 2. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) Policy Review Progress Report July 2009 [GR No 29/09] to ask the Chief Minister:

Supplementary Order Paper No 1 If he will make a statement on the current legal position Appointed Day Order – relating to the frozen KSF (IOM) funds held by UK Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 (Appointed Day) (No. 3) authorities, and what representations and negotiations (Amendment) Order 2009 [SD No 529/09] are continuing in an effort to reclaim what is ostensibly another jurisdiction’s funds? Report Report of the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald for the The President: Question 2. Hon. Member, Mr Session 2008-09: Petitions for Redress presented on Tynwald Henderson. Day 2009 [PP97/09] Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The President: The papers having been laid before the Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I court, Hon. Members, we turn then to our Question Paper. beg to ask the Question in my name.

Papers laid before the Court Scope and Structure of Government Report – Publication KSF (IOM) funds held by UK authorities – Legal position 1112 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers

The President: Chief Minister. The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr The Chief Minister: I am certainly not aware of that President. detail, Mr President. There are no frozen funds held by the UK authorities in All I can say is the sooner that this matter is dealt with relation to KSF (Isle of Man) Ltd. and the depositors get their entitlement under the liquidation, KSF (Isle of Man) Ltd deposited some of its funds with then I think the better it is and, of course, the Depositors’ KSF Ltd, the UK company, which is in administration. KSF Compensation Scheme as well, taking its part. I think all our (Isle of Man) is a creditor in this regard. aims are the same: to try and ensure that people are paid out KSF (Isle of Man) Ltd is in liquidation and all such as early as possible. funds and assets of this bank are being administered by the But I am not aware of the detail of the Hon. Member, and liquidator, sir. I thank him for that.

The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. The President: Hon. Member for Rushen.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Mr Watterson: Has the Chief Minister sought any Can the Ard-shirveishagh confi rm or otherwise that his information or clarity about whether any of the IMF money Offi ce and that of the External Relations Offi cer are doing that is going to Iceland, on the basis that it will be dealing with everything in their power to clearly identify the ‘Manx all depositors equally, will fl ow through either to KSF (UK) element’ in the KSF Isle of Man funds which were put or KSF (Isle of Man) in the same way that the Landsbanki through the London branch KSF, so that there is a clear deal had to be done? identifi cation of the £450/500 million worth of depositors’ Is there any further detail as to what level of dividend we money? will see from the KSF (UK) winding-up? Secondly, can he confi rm or otherwise the legal status of that with regard to the Isle of Man in its return and in its The President: Chief Minister. totality? The Chief Minister: I am not aware that any of the The President: Chief Minister. money that the IMF have funded through to Iceland will return through to the Isle of Man KSF liquidation. However, The Chief Minister: I think the latter part of the Question I stand to be corrected… I have answered in the fi rst response I gave, Mr President. As far as the issue of the progress of this matter, again I can advise that the Chief Secretary’s Offi ce and myself, everything that we have got is in the public arena. This and other colleagues who are involved in this, are doing all matter is subject to debate later on on the Order Paper, sir, we can to assist in this matter. and I am sure the Treasury Minister will be able to clarify some of these points at that stage, but I can say everything The President: Hon. Member for Michael. we can do we have endeavoured to do. The matter now is in liquidation. It is out of our control and all we can do is now Mr Cannan: In the matter of these KSF funds, can the endeavour to assist where we can – which is limited – but Chief Minister give any indication of any prospect of return of also ensuring, as far as we can, that there is an early payout the £100 million that was deposited with Kaupthing Iceland for all those involved, sir. and any responsibility of the Icelandic Government towards those funds and the return of them to the Isle of Man bank The President: Final supplementary, Mr Cannan. – the Isle of Man branch of KSF? Mr Cannan: Does the Isle of Man Government have The President: Chief Minister. a watching brief or representative on the committee of inspection with the liquidator to safeguard not only the Isle The Chief Minister: Again, I can only say that we are of Man Government’s reputation, but also the Isle of Man doing what we can, in relation to this matter. It is a very Government’s investments, which were in the care of KSF complicated issue and certainly, as I have indicated, this bank, in order to safeguard the Isle of Man’s interests? matter now is that the KSF (Isle of Man) Ltd is in liquidation and therefore we endeavour to make representations and The President: Chief Minister. discuss with the UK, and through the UK to Iceland, as well as, of course, the visit that I undertook with the Treasury The Chief Minister: I confi rm we have a watching Minister to Iceland some time ago, sir. brief, sir. The matter is ongoing. The matter is complicated. What we can do, we certainly will do, but we do have to accept now that the bank is in liquidation. Legislative session 2008-09 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. Legislation not introduced

Mr Lowey: Is the Chief Minister aware that the 3. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the liquidators yesterday announced a 20-per-cent repayment Chief Minister: earlier, which is twice the amount which they expected to pay and it is months earlier than they expected to pay? Will Which pieces of legislation planned for the 2008-09 this have an effect for the Isle of Man deposits? session were not introduced into either branch, and

KSF (IOM) funds held by UK authorities – Legal position Legislative session 2008-09 – Legislation not introduced Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1113 T126

if he will give the reasons for each one not being addressing the real issues, and the fact that it will be left until introduced? nearer the General Election will make it less likely for us to address many of the thorny problems that we have with the The President: Question 3. Hon. Member for Rushen, present system of the Council of Ministers’ legislation, which Mr Watterson. has not got the right balance in?

Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. The President: Chief Minister. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The Chief Minister: No, I do not agree, sir. The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of the Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr Treasury Value for Money Committee Report 2008 President. Implementation of effi ciency measures The legislative timetable is planned for a rolling three- year period and kept closely under review to ensure that it 4. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the constantly refl ects overall priorities. The timetable was most Chief Minister: recently published within the 2008 Isle of Man Government Annual Report, which was laid before Tynwald Court in With regard to the Treasury Value for Money Committee October last year. Report for the period 2008 – Since that time, it has been necessary to accommodate (a) whether he agrees with the section of the Chairman’s changing priorities and, as a result, the timescale originally statement where it says, planned for some items has slipped, whilst other items, of course, have been accelerated. ‘it is essential to achieve increased value for money and Due to the time available, I am not able to provide the ensure that detailed scrutiny of Government expenditure details as requested today. However, I will have circulated and associated procedures are maintained’; to Hon. Members a schedule providing the details requested. I can confi rm that the 2009 Government’s Annual Report (b) with regard to the section of the Chairman’s statement will, as usual, include a full updated timetable in relation to where it says, the legislative programme, when it is published in October 2009, sir. ‘Sadly to say not all [measures to effect improvement] Thank you. have been accepted or met with fruition’,

The President: Mr Watterson. what action he proposes so that more of the efﬁ ciency measures proposed by the Value for Money Committee Mr Watterson: Is it fair to say that those Bills which are implemented within Government; and have not been progressed are those relating to matters of (c) what additional political or constitutional measures parliamentary scrutiny, such as the Freedom of Information he proposes so as to improve the ‘detailed scrutiny of Bill and the Auditor General Bill? Will he make these a Government expenditure and associated procedures’? priority when we come back to the next legislative session in October, sir? The President: Question 4, Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. The President: Chief Minister. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing The Chief Minister: Mr President, these are extensive in my name. Bills with major implications and we have been undertaking a considerable amount of work on both those Bills, as well as The President: I call upon the Chief Minister. others. There is a consultation process to be undertaken and certainly it is my aim to get those Bills into the legislature The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, I fully as soon as possible. That has been my aim since becoming endorse the Chairman’s statement. That is in answer to part Chief Minister. (a) of the Question. However, in terms of freedom of information, we already In answer to part (b) of the Question, the Value for have a code that deals with that and, in fact, we work to Money Committee’s role is that of a strategic oversight body the general practice of that. As far as the Auditor General and part of the overall process of scrutiny of Government’s one is concerned, I am certainly very keen to progress that expenditure and Government Departments, Statutory legislation, as I was involved in the matter when it was being Boards and authorities. They are expected to consider and, developed, when I was in the position of Speaker, sir. if appropriate, implement such recommendations. In answer to part (c), I can conﬁ rm that the Tynwald The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. Auditor General Bill has been drafted and will shortly be published for consultation. The proposal will serve to further Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Ard-shirveishagh not strengthen the detailed scrutiny of Government expenditure, agree that the tactics of the Council of Ministers, like on sir. this Question and on the Question as far as the Scope and Structure of Government, are being used in order to avoid The President: Mr Karran.

Legislative session 2008-09 – Legislation not introduced Treasury Value for Money Committee Report 2008 – Implementation of efﬁ ciency measures 1114 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh Council to be – not agree that the fact is that, when a Government committee (a) directly elected; and such as the Value for Money Committee Report is expressing (b) performing a specific role scrutinising concern, which is part of the pay of the system of the Government? executive system, he needs to give it more priority, in order to make sure that the social improvements that we have had, The President: Question 5. Hon. Member for Onchan, through 18 good years of economic boom, do not end up Mr Karran. having the cuts for the weak, the sick and the poor, which are going to happen if we do not address this issue that even the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing Value for Money Committee of the Treasury is expressing in my name. concern about? The President: Again, the Chief Minister. The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, The Chief Minister: There are no intentions to cut Government has no proposals to amend the constitution or any support for the weak, the sick and the poor, as the role of the Legislative Council, sir. Hon. Member continues to say. I think the record of this Thank you. Government and also previous Governments has been outstanding and, considering we put 60 per cent of our budget The President: Mr Cannan. Hon. Member for towards health, social care, social security and, of course, Michael. education, shows quite clearly where our direction is and I do not see that changing much in the future. Mr Cannan: In respect of Members of the Legislative However, ensuring that we are effi cient in our expenditure Council, does the Chief Minister support the continued I think is also very important. payment of a sum of £6,178 tax-free per annum for Members in respect of constituency expenses, when Legislative The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran, let us Councillors have no constituency, are not elected by not lead to a debate. the public, have no public accountability and no public mandate? Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that 60 per cent… a large percentage of that is in The President: I will allow the Chief Minister to answer, pension liabilities which are going to grow in the future? but it is not strictly allied to the Question on the Paper. Would he also not agree that the record of his Government has been atrocious about addressing the issues of effective, The Chief Minister: I have no comment, sir. It is a matter effi cient spending, as far as the Government is concerned, that is on the Order Paper later in this sitting, sir. and the fact is that he will have no choice, unless we start addressing the core issues that are in this Question and a The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member of Council. number of other Questions on this Order Paper, in order to make sure that they do not have to provide those cuts that Mr Lowey: Would the Chief Minister not agree that there will happen? We want to be proactive, not reactive, on such is a Constitutional Committee of this Court, and would the an important matter. Council of Ministers consider referring the matters raised in the Question to that Committee? The President: Chief Minister. The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I can certainly advise that we are very proactive in ensuring that we can secure the services The Chief Minister: I think if the Member for Onchan for the people of the Island. Can I say, it does not include wishes to do that, he can, sir. the pension liability, as far as I understand. That is a separate I think it is well known that this Court and another place amount of money that is put to one side. – both Chambers, in fact – have endeavoured to fi nd a way As far as effective and effi cient expenditure is concerned, forward on this and have, to date, been unsuccessful for the all I can say is that all Departments are charged with ensuring last 25 to 30 years, sir. they do not allow waste to happen and, in fact, sometimes there is pressure from this Hon. Court and another place that The President: Question 6, Mr Karran, Hon. Member inhibits some of that progress being made, sir. for Onchan.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I had supplementaries.

Members of the Legislative Council The President: Right, sir. Final supplementary, Mr Direct election; scrutiny role Karran.

5. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not Chief Minister: be concerned that the issue of the performance of scrutinising his Government is viewed from a very different viewpoint What constitutional or political initiatives or reforms he than his Ministers portray, with the tame press that we will be proposing to enable Members of the Legislative have out there in this Island, as far as the general public is

Treasury Value for Money Committee Report 2008 – Implementation of effi ciency measures Members of the Legislative Council – Direct election; scrutiny role Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1115 T126 concerned, as far as the issue of effective spending, as far as The President: Hon. Member for Onchan. holding the executive to account? What actions is he going to do, as far as making sure Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh that if there was a world recession on our shores hitting, not agree that the fact is very few outside this Hon. Court that we will make sure we have an effective system in order have confi dence in the consultants that you have appointed, that the scrutiny of the executive is on a more level playing as far as this important issue? fi eld basis? Would the Ard-shirveishagh not also agree that the fact is the way that we are putting off addressing this issue near The President: Chief Minister. to a general election will mean there is not the political backbone to address the core issues that are going to have The Chief Minister: I am not sure, Mr President, how to be addressed, if we are not to leave a horrendous liability it fully relates to the question of the issue of the Legislative for the next generation and the generations that come after Council – that?

The President: The word ‘scrutinising’ appeared, sir: The President: Chief Minister. that is the only link. The Chief Minister: Mr President, I would say that the The Chief Minister: My only view on that is that we consultants we have employed are well known for being need to be careful we do not scrutinise ourselves to death. We experts in their fi eld and therefore I am quite satisfi ed with have so many Committees looking at Committees looking the work they are undertaking. at Government, (Interjection by Mr Karran) there is a great As far as the putting off addressing the issue, I think danger that we actually drift into a situation that we will we are doing quite the reverse. We, actually – as executive fi nd untenable. Government – came here to Tynwald Court to get support What I would certainly support, and always have, is to take this matter forward. We understand the diffi culties in proper scrutiny of the actions of Government by Tynwald terms of the politics and also the importance, the considerable Court, sir. importance, to those whom we employ and I would say that it is also critically important to the taxpayers of the future. There is no lack of commitment to take this matter forward. However, it is an important subject and, importantly, Public sector pensions we agreed to extend the consultation period up to six months Reducing future liability to 31st July 2009, which is well in excess of our normal consultation period, to enable those who are affected to have proper time to consult, to consider and, hopefully, put in fi rm 6. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the views that will help us on the way forward, sir. Chief Minister: The President: Hon. Member for Onchan. Whether for public sector pensions to become affordable in the future – Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I ask the Ard-shirveishagh (a) the net future liability on public sector pensions needs to circulate what he sees as the long-term liabilities, as far to be reducing year on year; and as the cost implications, to Hon. Members, as there was a (b) the current pension schemes need to be closed to new difference between his sums and the sums of some other members with immediate effect? Hon. Members, as far as the liabilities are concerned, in order that we know where you actually are, as far as this important The President: Question 6, Hon. Member for Onchan, issue is concerned; so that we know what you actually see as Mr Karran. the liabilities, so we can actually check those fi gures, so that there is some clarity over what is fact and what is fi ction on Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing this important issue? in my name. The President: Chief Minister. The President: Again, I call the Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Mr President, this matter is in the The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, public arena. We produce reports. The reports have been put Government is presently undertaking extensive consultation on the website. They are available for people to see. The with its employees regarding future options for public sector information is contained in there. pensions. As the consultation process does not close until The total liability for public sector pensions in this 31st July 2009, I have no wish to pre-empt the results of that fi nancial year will be £44 million. Of that fi gure, only £32 important consultation. million is funded from employer and employee contributions, However, in response to part (a) of the Question, I and therefore the shortfall is paid out of Government’s general can confirm that, whatever the outcome of our present revenue, and ultimately, therefore, by the taxpayer. As more considerations, the net future liability will need to be people retire and live longer, the shortfall is estimated to managed appropriately. increase by around 10 per cent per year, sir. In answer to part (b), it is not Government policy presently That information has been given in this Court on a number to close the current pension schemes to new members, sir. of occasions and is available in the public arena, and again Thank you. I have repeated it today, sir.

Members of the Legislative Council – Direct election; scrutiny role Public sector pensions – Reducing future liability 1116 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers

The President: Mr Karran. to ensure that Members know just the difﬁ cult task that members of my staff have to do and the dedication to duty Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh that they have by coming in for extended hours and over not agree that is from the people who are paying that think weekends at times to help. they are getting a pension… paying into a pension scheme. That is to cover the present liabilities and that actually is not addressing the real liability and the real costs and that is why this issue needs to be addressed urgently and we need some Future European Savings Directive real conﬁ dence, as far as the consultants that you have got. Decisions without Tynwald approval Are they doing the right job or not? 8. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the The President: Chief Minister. Minister for the Treasury:

The Chief Minister: It is being addressed, sir. (1) What consultation was done by Treasury before a decision was made in Council of Ministers on the future European Savings Directive, with whom it was done, when it was done and whether it was Treasury or the TREASURY banking sector that initiated the process; and (2) why he felt it was appropriate to announce a Treasury staff signiﬁ cant shift in banking regulation policy without Workload reference to, or consultation with Tynwald and when he was off Island? 7. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Minister for the Treasury: The President: Question 8. Mr Watterson.

If he will justify his claim that ‘Treasury staff have been Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. working seven days a week for the past six months’? I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.

The President: Question 7. I call upon the Hon. Member The President: Mr Bell, Treasury Minister. for Rushen, Mr Gill. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, Mr Gill: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. the Government has reviewed and updated its policies in Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. relation to the European Union Directive 2003/48/EC on the taxation of savings income in the form of interest payments, The President: We turn now to the Treasury Minister, which is commonly referred to as the EUSD. Mr Bell, please. In relation to the proposals for a new Savings Directive issued by the European Union Commission in November The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, 2008, the approach followed by the Government this year has Mr President. been very similar to the one that it followed in 2003, when I do not recall using those specifi c words, but I believe I the Savings Directive was adopted by the member states of may have commented to indicate that, for an extended period, the European Union. The report that I will be presenting to a number of Treasury staff have been having to work longer this Court under Item 22 of our Order Paper covers a number than regular hours, including on occasions at weekends, to of points related to the current and proposed future Savings deal with several complex and extremely diffi cult issues. I do Directive. In addition, my written reply to a Question from not have specifi c evidence in terms of timesheets or records of the Member for Rushen, Mr Gill, covers a number of points hours worked and nor would I consider it necessary to collect related to the process followed by the Government in 2003. such information before making this type of comment. Although it may seem that I am repeating myself, the Hon. I justify the comment because I know, from fi rst-hand Member, Mr Watterson’s Question is specifi c, and I wish to experience, the nature and extent of the work that a number give him a more detailed Answer. of my Treasury staff have been doing over an extended Mr President, one of the key standing consultative period. bodies that I chair is called the Isle of Man Finance Steering Committee. The Committee has been in existence for The President: Mr Gill. a number of years and comprises the Treasury political Members, senior Treasury offi cers and representatives of Mr Gill: I hope he will accept from myself and other the various parts of our fi nancial services sector. At the Members that he did make that comment. It was clearly a Committee meeting on 28th November 2008, the Assessor throw-away line intended to impress. Far from that, would gave a detailed update on OECD, G20 and EU matters, he accept that he should be more careful about his choice of including the proposed new Savings Directive. In view of words and his choice of description when they are clearly the potential impact on our economy and the proposed new inaccurate, sir? Savings Directive, I proposed that a working party should be formed to review all EUSD related issues, and that it should The President: Mr Bell. report back to that Committee. The working party was formed under the chairmanship of The Minister: Mr President, I will always do my best one of the Deputy Assessors and comprised representatives

Public sector pensions – Reducing future liability Treasury staff – Workload Future European Savings Directive – Decisions without Tynwald approval Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1117 T126 of the Isle of Man Bankers’ Association, the Isle of Man Law Mr Watterson: Does the Treasury Minister not accept Society, the Manx Insurance Association, the Association of that this is a change in tax policy and that it should be, Corporate Service Providers, the Association of International therefore… we should go out to consultation with Members Life Offi ces, the Manx Insurance Managers’ Association of Tynwald and the public before making such decisions and the Fund Management Association. It carried out its and then going and announcing them somewhere around the work during the fi rst fi ve months of this year, most of which world, instead of domestically? was virtual, although three formal meetings of the working party were held. A report was produced by the working party The President: Mr Bell. towards the end of May and was presented to the Finance Steering Committee at its meeting on 29th May 2009. The Minister: Mr President, the agenda that we are Based on a combination of the in-depth consultation having to grapple with at the moment is an extremely serious carried out through the working party and the ongoing one for the Isle of Man. It is also extremely fast moving and it work of Treasury officers, Treasury made a number of is very diffi cult always to have what some Members at least policy decisions in relation to the Savings Directive in June might consider an appropriate period of consultation. which were then presented to, and agreed by, the Council We have had consultation with the people most directly of Ministers. affected by this decision and it could have various – if we Mr President, the Government considered that the OECD mishandle this – it could have a detrimental effect on their forum in Paris on 23rd and 24th June presented a good business and so the key people were consulted on this. There opportunity to announce our intentions about the European has been a presentation to Members. Members were notifi ed, Union Savings Directive retention tax and automatic albeit only the day before, and there is an opportunity for exchange of information. It was a major international Members to discuss this later on the Agenda, Mr President. event attended by many senior fi gures and by global media As I say, this is exactly the same approach we had when representatives. the Savings Directive was fi rst announced in 2003. I trust that all Hon. Members will agree with me that the positive coverage generated for the Isle of Man by the The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. announcement, justifi ed the view that was then taken. I took care to inform Hon. Members of the Government’s intention Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Shirveishagh Tashtee for me to make the announcement before I spoke at that not agree that this Question and the reactions as far as this forum. I am presenting a detailed report on our international Question is concerned, just highlights the danger that we taxation strategy to the Court at this sitting. really do not have an independent parliament, as it really In all that I have just described, Mr President, the Treasury does not matter, anyway: you do not need to consult with it, and the Government have acted in the best interests of the because at the end of the day you have got the block vote, Isle of Man and we have consulted appropriately and we have anyway? kept the Members of this Hon. Court informed. Does he not think that it would be more honest to say Mr President, I look forward – in this Hon. Court that the fact is that he has got the vote, anyway, and that is the reason why he does not need to The President: Mr Watterson. consult with Tynwald?

The Minister: – to discussing international taxation later The President: I do not think there is a question in in the Agenda. that. Mr Watterson. The President: Mr Watterson. Mr Watterson: Can we take it from his announcements Mr Watterson: Well, I take issue with the point that he today that there was no undertaking to discuss future taxation says he has kept Members of Tynwald fully informed. policy with Members of Tynwald before it is announced? I have to say that… does he feel it is acceptable, despite having a Government code of conduct on consultation, that The President: Mr Bell. it is appropriate for Members of Tynwald to read this in a press release for announcements in Paris the next day? Does The Minister: There was no invitation! he consider that that is proper consultation with Members of Tynwald? The President: Mr Karran. A question, sir, not a statement. The President: Mr Bell. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh Tashtee The Minister: Mr President, the process which we tell this Hon. Court, was the thought process because of this… adopted for this announcement was almost identical to the because of the fact that it is going to be agreed, anyway, and process we used in 2003. It is very similar to the process the fact is there are no distinguishing factors between the we used when I signed the Tax Information Exchange Tynwald, the parliament and the executive? Agreements, whereby the announcement is made, but it is all subject to ratiﬁ cation of this Hon. Court. This will be The President: I think the answer is no. the same situation with this particular announcement, Mr Mr Bell. President. The Minister: Mr President, I really have a concern with The President: Mr Watterson. some of the comments which have been made, particularly

Future European Savings Directive – Decisions without Tynwald approval 1118 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers by the Hon. Member for Onchan, that he does not appreciate Member’s position on this and, in normal circumstances, as just how serious the situation confronting the Isle of Man has Hon. Members are aware, Treasury, with the Chief Minister’s been over this last year or so, with the international agenda Offi ce, does try to keep Members abreast with developments attacking small fi nance centres like the Isle of Man. on the international agenda. We have been battling to ensure that we retain the I can only repeat again that some of these issues are political integrity of the Isle of Man and, most importantly, moving very fast. In particular, the invitation to go to the the economic integrity of the Isle of Man by positioning the OECD was a massive compliment to the Isle of Man for Isle of Man in the best way we possibly can to defl ect some the work that it has done over the last 12 months, bearing in of these attacks which are coming on them. mind that, 10 years ago, the Isle of Man was on the OECD This is not some low-level local issue, Mr President; blacklist. Therefore, we have to take these opportunities these are international politics we are having to deal with when they arise. and, in responding to these challenges, Mr President, we are But in a general sense, the Hon. Member is correct. having to move at a very fast pace at times to keep ahead of the game. The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member.

The President: Try again. Mr Karran. Mr Lowey: Yes, it really follows on from what the Minister has just said. Would the Minister not agree that there Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee are occasions when we expect the Government to lead? (Mr not understand the functions of a proper democracy, apart Downie and another Member: Hear, hear.) This is one of from having a free press… the separations of power between those occasions, in the national interest, they thought it in the executive, the parliament and the judiciary? the best interest of the Isle of Man to lead. Would he not agree that one of the factors, as far as the Would he not agree that this Court should occasionally actions that he has taken, whilst appreciating the pressures expect to understand the pressures that are on the individual that he is under, is the fact that there is no distinguishing Ministers, and especially the Government, in this international factor between the parliament and the executive? Is that a febrile climate that we live in, that sometimes we have to factor… the fact that he has decided to take the high-handed go outside the box. We often ask the Ministers to lead. This measure that he has done, which is an increasing problem is one occasion where I am quite happy, on this occasion, that I have seen over the last 5 to 10 years, turning this place sir, to say you led in the right direction, and I am prepared into a one-party state by patronage? to follow. The President: Mr Bell – a short answer. The President: Treasury Minister. The Minister: Mr President, there is no truth in that The Minister: Yes, I thank the Hon. Member for his whatsoever. comments and I do believe he is correct. (Interjections) The President: Mrs Christian, Hon. Member of the Government is in place to lead at times. Council. The President: It is a concern, Hon. Members, and I take Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. the point which has been made by a number of Members. Would the Hon. Treasury Minister, having just made I think the Chief Minister and the Treasury Minister will the statement that this was not a low-level local matter, not acknowledge that, in fact, Tynwald needs to be kept as consider that it is even more critical, then, that it should come informed as is practical at any given time. before this Court (Several Members: Hear, hear.) for at least some discussion or information?

The President: Mr Bell. Welcome to ofﬁ cers from RAF Valley

The Minister: Mr President, the Item is on the agenda The President: Hon. Members, in taking that break, later on today or tomorrow, and if Members wish to vote perhaps it is an appropriate time in which I could welcome against it, it is entirely their choice. to our Distinguished Visitors’ Gallery Group Captain Dixon and his ofﬁ cers from Valley. It is good to have you on the The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. Island, sir. I understand that you are here for three days on exercises. We wish you well. We hope that you are never Mr Cannan: Fully acknowledging the importance of brought to the Island in earnest! the work undertaken by both the Treasury Minister and the Chief Minister to protect the Isle of Man ﬁ nancial services industry, will the Treasury Minister give some indication, following these Questions, that he will endeavour in future Gill Smith from Brisbane – Welcome to fully appraise Members when he is taking such important steps as an alteration in the taxation system, which this The President: Hon. Members, whilst I am welcoming matter entails? the visitors from Valley, just as an off-chance – and I am going to get this name wrong! – sitting in the front row of our The President: Mr Bell. Public Gallery is Jill Smith and her husband, from Brisbane in Australia, whose forebears were Tom Cowin, who served The Minister: Mr President, I fully appreciate the Hon. as a Member here for Douglas West (Interjection) – Douglas

Future European Savings Directive – Decisions without Tynwald approval Welcome to ofﬁ cers from RAF Valley Gill Smith from Brisbane – Welcome Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1119 T126

North, was it? – and Katie Cowin who served as a Member for no wiser at all, so would the Treasury Minister take this Douglas (Mr Lowey: West.) West – thank you, Mr Lowey. opportunity to circulate to Members in writing, through So there we are: the two Cowins, as I understand it. yourself, sir, the full deﬁ nition that he applies further to Welcome from Brisbane in Australia. Question 9 on the Question Paper?

The President: Mr Bell.

Non-disclosed payments The Minister: I am happy to do that. Criteria The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. 9. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the Minister for the Treasury: Mr Cannan: In this new enlightened era in which we live, would the Treasury Minister have a change of policy If he will defi ne the criteria which he employs when in which, when disposing of taxpayers’ money, he declined making secret (non-disclosed) payments? to accept requests for confi dentiality, except in the most extreme cases and insisted that, if people wanted payments, The President: Question 9. I call on the Hon. Member they should be fully disclosed and in the public interest. In for Rushen, Mr Gill. particular, when employees of Government, were receiving… were requesting… or in receipt of payments for early Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my retirement, which perhaps may be a wording for some other ennym. reason why they left the public service and that these matters should in the public interest be disclosed, as at the present The President: Treasury Minister. time there is much rumour and innuendo as to the amounts that are being paid out? (Interjection by Mr Watterson) The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, I am conscious that this subject has been raised previously The President: Treasury Minister. by Hon. Members, and in particular at the sitting of the House of Keys on 10th March this year. At that time, I was The Minister: Mr President, in a general sense I would responding to a Question from the Hon. Member for Michael always support the total disclosure of these fi gures. I do which concerned his request to identify such secret or non- not believe it is in Government’s interest, or the taxpayers’ disclosure payments made by all Departments and Statutory interest, to keep any of these secret or confi dential. There Boards over the years 2006-07 and 2007-08. are very rare occasions and I think, in the answer I gave A supplementary question was asked by the Hon. Member previously, we had identifi ed only two or three instances, for Rushen, Mr Watterson, in respect of the criteria used to where a confi dentiality clause was applied to an agreement select the payments identifi ed in the Answer. The criterion and Treasury, on the recommendation of the Department used to prepare the Answer was to include payments related to making that agreement, agreed to go along with it, but in a the settlement of some form of claim or dispute. Payments for general sense we would not support this. There have to be the supply of goods and services under a contract containing good, specifi c reasons for us to support the non-disclosure a non-disclosure clause concerning the value of the contract of this information. were not included. As far as the Treasury is concerned, it has not made The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. any payments falling within this defi nition. The Treasury does, however, recognise that there are occasions when the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Shirveishagh Tashtee essence of such agreements between Government bodies not agree that the reason why he is so keen on confi dential and third parties are not necessarily secret but are subject to clauses is because then it helps to cover up bad spending non-disclosure at the behest and agreement of both parties. and bad decision-making, as far as his administration is In cases where Treasury is consulted, or required to provide concerned? the concurrence to such agreements, the wishes of the Would he not agree that the fact is that, often, when I Department in regard to maintaining such confi dentiality are have talked to individuals, like people who have left the generally acknowledged and respected. Civil Service, it was the Government that actually wanted In relation to a similar Question in Tynwald on 20th the confi dentiality clause, not the individuals? February 2007, the Attorney General set out his criteria in advising Ministers in relation to confi dentiality clauses. The President: Minister Bell.

The President: Mr Gill, Hon. Member. The Minister: I cannot comment on his conversations, Mr President. Mr Gill: Before the Treasury Minister tries to weave a misunderstanding here, the Hansard of the House of Keys on 10th March – actually there were two supplementaries, one, would the Treasury Minister deﬁ ne the criteria in which IOM-UK Treaty Agreement he selected those payments and the second was a further Response to letter re alleged breach supplementary, does it include all commercially conﬁ dential payments… His response – rather than the full answer which 10. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the he is alluding to – was actually, no, they do not. It made us Minister for the Treasury:

Gill Smith from Brisbane – Welcome Non-disclosed payments – Criteria IOM-UK Treaty Agreement – Response to letter re alleged breach 1120 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers

Further to his Written Answer to Question 38 at the May The President: Mr Bell. sitting of Tynwald, when he will respond to the letter of 22nd April in accordance with the ministerial code? The Minister: I cannot agree with the Hon. Member.

The President: Question 10. Hon. Member, Mr Gill.

Mr Gill: Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my FD8 waivers 2009 ennym. Reasons for issue

The President: Again, I call on the Treasury Minister. 11. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Minister for the Treasury: The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, Mr Gill, the Hon. Member for Rushen, has raised this issue If the Minister will list all FD8 waivers issued since with me previously and I have not yet replied to this letter, 1st January 2009, with a brief précis of why they were due to more pressing priorities. I can assure the Hon. Member issued? that a reply will be sent as soon as time allows. The President: Question 11, Hon. Member, Mr The President: Mr Gill. Watterson.

Mr Gill: How does the Minister reconcile this new, Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to uncharacteristic humility with his previous response to a ask the Question standing in my name. Question asking for a response to this letter, in four one-word answers – ‘yes’, he has received it; ‘no’, he has not responded The President: Again the Answer is in the hands of Mr or acknowledged it; ‘no’, he is not going to write to it; and Bell. ‘no’, he will not make a statement? Will he now reconsider that, and actually treat this Court and members of the public The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, with some courtesy, sir? over the period from 1st January 2009 to 30th June 2009, Treasury has approved 15 applications, under FD8 of Isle The President: Mr Bell of Man Government Financial Regulations, relating to the requirement to obtain competitive tenders for the procurement of goods and services. Each of these approvals relates to The Minister: Mr President, I have answered the procurement exercises in excess of £100,000. It should question. be noted that each Department/Statutory Board will have delegated authority to approve FD8 waivers for purchases Mr Gill: Eaghtyrane, could I just confi rm then, for the up to this sum vested in its own accounting offi cer. record, that then answering the question… this high-handed Mr President, due to the nature and complexity of the arrogance is all very well and might impress certain people; information required, I am presenting a written version of I do not think it would impress the public of the Isle of this Answer, which… I do not know whether it has been Man, but will he, just for clarity, sir, confi rm that, yes, he distributed, (The President: Yes.) but it will be. The schedule will actually deal with this in a full manner or, no, he will at table 1 provides a précis of the detail attached to each continue his high-handed, arrogant position? It is a ‘yes’ application. [See Table 11A]. or ‘no’ answer: that should not be too much even for the Treasury Minister. The President: Can I make it plain, Hon. Members, in relation to this Question and in relation to Question 37 also, The President: In his fi rst Answer, I think he said he there has been additional written information circulated to would be replying at a later time. I think he has already Members under Standing Order 3.6.2 b) Hon. Members. replied, but Mr Bell can reply for himself. Mr Quirk, Hon. Member.

The Minister: I can only refer the Hon. Member to the Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. answer. Could I ask the Treasury Minister, with reference to – I will put the dates on it – page 4, 25th March, could The President: Yes. Mr Karran. he comment when the Post Ofﬁ ce said, when they were purchasing scanners there, that it did not allow for full-time Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh allowance for the tender exercise? Can the Treasury Minister Tashtee not agree that people outside this Hon. Court will comment on that, because the tender procedures in the be concerned that the fact an Hon. Member has asked this Treasury documents are listed out and I am just wondering Question and cannot get a reply, what hope has a man in why they are saying they did not have enough time on that. the street? Also, while I am on my feet, if I could, Mr President, Does this not highlight what I said previously that the fact the bottom one for the DHSS, regarding the Isle of Man is there is little regard as far as the function of parliamentary Adoption Service, the Isle of Man Children’s Centre and scrutiny and that is why we are going to have the big problems St Christopher’s Fellowship, I wonder when it says at the on the horizon, because the fact there is no order in the bottom there in the ﬁ nal column, ‘tender procedure would system; there is no difference between parliament and the also be destructive for the provider’. I can understand it for executive and that issue needs to be addressed? the children, but the provider, where do we have – and I quote

IOM-UK Treaty Agreement – Response to letter re alleged breach FD8 waivers 2009 – Reasons for issue Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1121 T126

TABLE 11A Schedule of Financial Regulation FD8 Waivers Approved by the Treasury during the period 1 January 2009 to 30 June 2009

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FD8 waivers 2009 – Reasons for issue Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1123 T126 my colleague from Onchan, but not all the time – open and in respect of part (a), I can confi rm that the Department transparency, where does that take place? submitted an application for a waiver of the provisions relating to competitive tendering, as required under the The President: The difficulty of giving additional financial regulations FD8, which was approved by the information is that you sometimes get caught up on that. Treasury at its meeting on 28th January 2009. The process of supply and selection and the rationale upon Mr Quirk: Yes, I appreciate that. which the subsequent contract was placed by the Department is therefore in accordance with fi nancial regulations and The President: Hon. Member, Mr Bell, if you have that within the scope of such directions. available. If not, sir, you will have to reply another time. As to part (b), the Department, having submitted its business case to develop the initiative of an Isle of Man The Minister: Other than the information that has been shopping website and selected Venda as its preferred supplier, given in that form which I have distributed, Mr President, the application for Treasury concurrence was considered in due I do not have any further details on this. These are matters, process and ultimately approved. Following the notifi cation obviously, for the individual Departments themselves. of such to the Department, I believe the Department was legitimately entitled to enter into the necessary contractual The President: And, Hon. Members, you can pick them relationships to deliver the services required. up at any stage. Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member.

Mr Cannan: Would the Treasury Minister agree that, Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I thank the Shirveishagh in these diffi cult fi nancial times, when seeking supplies Tashtee for his reply, but can he just clarify the issue of this from the United Kingdom, special offers are available to affair, that it was not a matter of having to ratify it after the Departments, where, if they declined them and went out to fact and not before the fact? Can the Shirveishagh make tender, the actual supply of goods would be greater than the sure that the situation is that his Department, that has legal offers that are made to them, and therefore it is appropriate responsibility for the good spending of taxpayers’ money, these waivers are, from time to time, issued? has the power to make sure that it does not end up having just to nod things through after the issue? The President: Mr Bell. Finally, can the Shirveishagh Tashtee also consider that, when looking at these issues, the fact of the economic effect The Minister: In a general sense, Mr President, obviously it has on the existing business on the Island and the viability we would encourage all Government Departments to buy of the existing business on the Island to actually keep it to local and not to have to tender off Island, but the Hon. compete and make sure that it is on a healthy, level playing Member is absolutely right, there are occasions when fi eld? circumstances arise where the Isle of Man, or Departments of Government, can get a better deal for it. But it is, more The President: Minister Bell. often than not, that there are only very limited providers of a service and therefore it is more appropriate for an FD8 waiver The Minister: Mr President, in no case does Treasury to come in at that point, recognising the fact that there is not nod through items of expenditure, especially of this particular the feasibility of a competitive tender situation. magnitude and I can say that, after the initial written presentation to Treasury, there were concerns expressed about the viability of this proposal. The Department itself then came in and made a special presentation to Treasury Venda on that and we were prepared at that point to give support to Decision to award contract the Department’s priority, as it was stated, and it was then passed on to the Council of Ministers and they also endorsed 12. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the that fi gure. Minister for the Treasury: So, in terms of the comment that the Hon. Member is making, did we… were we simply approving it after the Regarding the decision to award a £267,000 contract to event, that was not the case. A great deal of scrutiny had Venda by the Department of Trade and Industry – gone into this before it was fi nally approved. (a) whether any Financial Regulations were broken; and, if not, The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member for Malew (b) what the legal basis of the decision was? and Santon.

The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Was the Treasury Minister concerned, even after the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing presentation regarding the Venda presentation, because it in my name. states on the FD8 way here, ‘No local provider available who could set up and maintain such a site.’ I have been contacted The President: Again, I call the Minister for the Treasury, by two companies, who said they could have done this. It says Mr Bell. they demonstrated keen pricing. How did they demonstrate keen pricing if they did not go to local providers to see if it The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, was keen?

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The President: Mr Bell, Hon. Member. the Personal Allowance Credit was introduced as a simple mechanism to provide financial assistance through the The Minister: In this particular instance, Mr President, taxation system to people with low or fi xed incomes who do the presentation was made by the Chief Executive of the not have an income tax liability. Since its introduction I have Department and these facts were given to the Treasury by the further simplifi ed the Personal Allowance Credit system and Chief Executive of that Department, based on the information increased the amount of money provided to the less well off and research he had done prior to the application. in our community through its operation. To provide simplicity, we must have straightforward rules The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. and I do consider that approach to be the most appropriate way. To qualify for the Personal Allowance Credit, an Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, thanking the Shirveishagh individual must be a resident in the Isle of Man for the Tashtee for his replies to this important issue, would he be whole of the tax year and aged 18 or over at the start of the prepared to maybe just circulate a timeline on this issue? tax year. When Hon. Members considered the introduction I am not questioning the Hon. Member’s integrity, but of this measure in 2003, I advised the Court that setting what I would like to know is the fact that the Treasury has… the age limit at 18 had been agreed following consultation that it is not an after-the-fact matter of fact on this issue. between Treasury and the Department of Health and Social If they are there for a function of audit on Government Security. Departments, that they are doing it before the fact and not Mr President, to amend the rules so that all individuals after the fact. aged 16 or older at the start of the tax year qualify for the Personal Allowance Credit would result in it being paid to The President: Mr Bell. many young people in full-time education. Most of these young people will not yet be in the tax system and therefore The Minister: I have answered that question, but I am not required to make an annual tax return. Bringing all these happy to circulate the timeline. That is no problem, Mr young people into the tax system would, in my view, lead to President. needless bureaucracy and would, in any case, be targeting the wrong parts of our community. Alternatively, trying to The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member. separate those young people between the ages of 16 and 18 who have left education, from those who have not, would Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. lead to additional administrative complexity. Will the Minister be also happy to circulate any When the Personal Allowance Credit was introduced, I presentation, that was given to him, to Members, so we can stated to Hon. Members that it would be a simple system, both judge whether it is ‘keen’ and transparent? to administer and for people to understand, and I would like it to remain so. Rules determining an individual’s eligibility The President: Mr Bell. to tax reliefs and allowances are normally based around the tax year from 6th April to the following 5th April, although The Minister: That is a matter for the Department itself, the Personal Allowance Credit does also have the qualifying Mr President. age rule. The Department of Education has different rules to determine which academic year a young person joins. While this appears to cause inconsistency of treatment, I do not think that the two systems are either unacceptable or unfair. Personal Allowance Credit Mr President, we have a simple and very successful Availability only to over-18s mechanism for targeting additional fi nancial support to those groups in our community who are most in need of it. 13. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the It is projected that the total amount of Personal Allowance Minister for the Treasury: Credit payments that will be paid in respect of the 2008-09 tax year will be in the region of £6 million, benefi ting some Whether he feels it is appropriate to make the Personal 10,850 people. So I am not convinced of the need at this time Allowance Credit available only to those over 18 at the to consider any changes to the system. start of the assessment year, when it is feasible that an individual can have started work at 16; and whether he The President: Mr Watterson. considers it acceptable that two people in the same school year will be treated differently depending on whether their Mr Watterson: Will the Minister give consideration to birthday falls before or after 6th April? making the Personal Allowance Credit available to those who are 16 and over in full-time employment? Whilst I, too, The President: Question 13. Hon. Member for Rushen, would not want to be responsible for putting a lot of extra Mr Watterson. administrative burden… these are often vulnerable young people on low incomes, by defi nition, and these people could Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. be picked up by exception, in that these people will not be I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. receiving the additional Child Benefi t that those people aged 16 to 19 get who remain in full-time education. So there The President: Again I call the Minister for the would not be a great deal of burden in picking these people Treasury. up. Would he consider extending it to this group?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, The President: Mr Bell.

Venda – Decision to award contract Personal Allowance Credit – Availability only to over-18s Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1125 T126

The Minister: The vast majority of those people, Mr taxpayers indicate that they cannot immediately pay their President, affected in that group obviously will still be living tax liabilities in full. It is possible to reach an agreement at home, anyway, and will have that extra support behind whereby tax debts are paid in instalments. Similarly, it is them. Periodically, we do review the allowances and benefi ts possible to adjust an employed taxpayer’s tax code and which we provide through the taxation system and certainly so recover outstanding tax during the tax year. However, this particular benefi t, which, as I say, has been extremely where payment has not been made and the taxpayer has not successful, I believe, will be reviewed at the appropriate discussed extended payment options with the Income Tax time. Division, a warrant is issued to the Coroner, who will then pursue settlement of the tax debt. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. The number of reminders, fi nal demands and warrants issued in the last fi ve years were: to 31st March 2005, there Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not were 23,269 reminders, 15,258 fi nal demands and 4,444 agree that, while supporting his stance on this issue, that he warrants issued; in 2006, that fi gure was 23,656 reminders, needs to be making representation to the other Departments, 17,117 fi nal demands and 1,439 warrants; in 2007, 30,888 particular the DTI, to make sure there is a policy that all 16- reminders, 23,978 fi nal demands and 2,524 warrants; in 2008, year-olds that leave education, there is a need for full-time 23,296 reminders, 18,185 fi nal demands and 1,394 warrants; work for them and that any money that could be spent on the and to 31st March 2009, 24,383 reminders, 19,056 fi nal proposal in front of us would be spent on such a proposal demands and 1,981 warrants. As at 1st July 2009, the total in order that we do not get them into the trap of long-term number of warrants with the Coroners is 3,382. unemployment, as they are the most vulnerable years, that Mr President, in response to part (2) of the Question, a they should not end up on the dole in the fi rst place? garnishee proceeding is one of the powers of a Coroner and can be issued with the written consent of a creditor where The President: Mr Bell. the Coroner holds a warrant in respect of a debt and either the Coroner or the creditor becomes aware of a payment The Minister: I would agree wholeheartedly with the which is due to be made to the debtor by a third party in the Hon. Member. I do believe it is more important for us to Isle of Man. encourage young people of that age – school leavers – to get into work and avoid the benefi t culture, than to encourage Mr Bell: This procedure is covered in the current High them down the road of becoming dependent at this time. Court Rules Order 35, as amended, and as set out in the Manx Coroners’ Handbook. Part (3), Mr President: interest accrues on actual tax debt, not on the amount of the garnishee attachment, and is payable Non-payment of taxes by the debtor when the debt has been cleared. Recovery The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. 14. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury: Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh just clarify that the garnishee affair, how many people actually have (1) How many instances of non-payment of taxes occurred these arrangements with coroners at the present time? I do in each of the last fi ve years and what steps Treasury take not know whether the Hon. Minister will have that number. to recover the outstanding liabilities; Can he assure us that the fact is that we do not end up with (2) under what circumstances do Coroners issue a situation where, with garnishees, that they do accrue the garnishees in respect of non-payment of taxes; and same amount of interest as anything else? (3) whether interest is accruing on this sum and who is Can he also clarify the point of the fact that, whilst we responsible for the payment of this interest? should be humane as far as these issues where people have not got genuine money to pay their tax, the situation is that The President: Question 14. Hon. Member, Mr it should not be used by wealthy individuals to avoid paying Karran. their liabilities, especially as they have already had big subsidies out of a certain local authority, as far as ratepayers Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing are concerned, without having a situation where the taxpayer in my name. now subsidises people who are worth millions?

The President: Minister for the Treasury, Mr Bell, The President: Mr Bell. please. The Minister: I can give the Hon. Member that assurance The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, but, as far as the actual numbers are concerned, I do not have where tax has not been paid, the Income Tax Division of specifi c numbers, Mr President, but I am told that these are Treasury follows an established collection procedure. A very very low and it is a very rare occasion if this actually reminder is issued 14 days after the due and payable date happens. of the tax debt, followed, after a further 14 days, by a fi nal demand. The fi nal demand requests payment within 14 days The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. and also informs the taxpayer that continuing failure to pay will lead to a Coroner’s warrant being issued. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The Assessor will consider alternative approaches when Could the Shirveishagh Tashtee elucidate for us or, if he

Personal Allowance Credit – Availability only to over-18s Non-payment of taxes – Recovery 1126 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers cannot, if he could commit to circulating some information The Minister: I am not aware of any of the comments to Hon. Members following our proceedings, that it is not that the Hon. Member has made about millionaires abusing just Coroners’ warrants. We got the impression that it can be the system, Mr President, but if the Hon. Member has a Coroners’ warrants that are issued for default of payment, particular concern in mind, I will be very happy to investigate but could he confi rm also that, if necessary, his tax division it for him. can issue a court ruling for a police powers arresting warrant for non-payment of taxes or failure to fi ll out, for whatever The President: Mr Watterson. genuine reason, a tax form, a police powers arresting warrant just to put balance on this and could we have the incidences Mr Watterson: The fi gures that the Treasury Minister of that happening in the past 12 months? read out do seem, actually, rather high, just if you look at As I say, Eaghtyrane, if he has not got that prepared for the people on the Isle of Man. Will he just confi rm, then, him, if he could agree to circulate it and I am especially that this is individuals and bodies corporate, in terms of the interested in actions of his division, whereby last weekend people who are behind on their taxes, and would he perhaps a mother ended up in Jurby prison because of this very be able to give us an indication of just how many individuals situation. If he could investigate that matter and report back plus bodies corporate there are – taxable persons, if you like to us on the actual powers that his section have in relation – so that we could then work out the percentage of just how to this? many were falling behind with their debts?

The President: Mr Bell. The President: Mr Bell, do you have that ﬁ gure?

The Minister: I do not have that information to hand, Mr The Minister: I do not have those ﬁ gures, Mr President. President and I certainly have no knowledge of actions taken I believe these are the total number of outstanding demands last weekend, but I can certainly circulate it to Members. and warrants over the last ﬁ ve years, as was asked for in the Question. The President: Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister also circulate, if he does not have it to Local authorities hand, the procedures that are taken after the Treasury has Effi cient running by the clerk Question ruled issued a default notice to taxpayers? How many times do sub judice reminders go out, then what further action is taken in order to 15. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the recover this money from court? Then how the process, as my Minister for the Treasury: Hon. Member has already asked, how the process is followed through to a non-payment warrant and what the difference Since Braddan Parish Commissioners discovered a large is between non-payment warrants that are actionable by the defi cit and, since the dismissal of the previous clerk, have Police and those that are actionable by coroners? Is there a cleared the defi cit, and built up reserves and have still difference in the value of sums recoverable or what is the been able to reduce the rates this year, whether an interim absolute reason for that? report should be prepared to ensure that other authorities If that information is not held by the Hon. Minister, are not fi nding themselves in similar circumstances to would he circulate that procedural advice to us at a later those previously experienced by Braddan Commissioners point, sir? with a clerk who was effectively running things rather than the board? The President: Minister. The President: In relation to Question 15, Hon. The Minister: I do not have all that information, Mr Members, I am not going to take Question 15, but I feel, in President, but I will – fairness to the Hon. Member, I should give some element of explanation. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. In normal circumstances, I will fully defend a Member’s right to put a Question on the Question Paper and to have that Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, will the Shirveishagh Tashtee Question asked. I have, yesterday, Hon. Members, received look at the issue as far as garnishees are concerned with correspondence from advocates representing a court case coroners, the criteria as far as them being issued, as far which has already been called in the High Court, and that as that issue is concerned, and will he look at the issue troubles me somewhat in relation to sub judice, as this matter that, obviously, where there is a garnishee in the fact that has already been called. somebody who cannot pay his liability, then obviously that Looking at the Question, Hon. Members, I then is acceptable practice? considered whether or not I could deal with this Question But when we have a situation where we have millionaires just purely on the literal part of the Question. In other words, using this device, when we see ordinary working people who ‘whether an interim report should be prepared to ensure are ignorant of the law and the systems of government and that other authorities are not fi nding themselves in similar cannot afford a lawyer and end up in prison, can we just have circumstances’. Having considered that position, Hon. a look at the situation, as far as clarifying the position? Members, and the bits around the Question, I have decided, in fairness, because of the sub judice rule, that this Question The President: Minister Bell. will not be asked, whilst I acknowledge that I defend the right

Non-payment of taxes – Recovery Local authorities – Efﬁ cient running by the clerk – Question ruled sub judice Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1127 T126 of the Member to put Questions on the Question Paper. The Minister: Mr President, I have already given Question 16, Mr Karran. information on this, in previous Questions, to the Hon. Member. We are very well aware of the importance of this Mr Watterson: Point of order, Mr President, did you situation and the need to give conﬁ dence to depositors using take legal advice on that, sir? the banking system on the Isle of Man. We are also very well aware of evolving international standards now and the need The President: My own advice, sir. to take cognisance of those evolving standards, to ensure that the Isle of Man is not out of step with international law. Mr Karran: On another point of order, can we make sure I have given the undertaking, Mr President, that we are that if ordinary people in the street have similar situations doing our best to get the new Scheme back to Tynwald for that come to on the same basis and not just lawyers, where consideration by October. the rich can afford to defend themselves by stopping these questions? The President: Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I just ask the Shirveishagh Tashtee, could we see something clear two or three months Depositors’ Compensation Scheme before October, not a situation where we have a fortnight to Proposals for replacement try and then assemble good arguments, or the likes, on the issues as far as this most important issue; that we will be given 16. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the some sort of timescale of when we will see it, if it is at all Minister for the Treasury: possible? Appreciating the diffi cult times the Shirveishagh Tashtee fi nds himself in, there is a role for parliament to When he brings forward proposals for a replacement properly scrutinise. Depositors’ Compensation Scheme, if he would agree that the new scheme should – The President: Mr Bell. (a) establish a compensation fund, with the fund paying a commercial rate of interest to the contributors until such The Minister: Mr President, we will do our very best to time as the money deposited is required; and give Hon. Members the time that they need. (b) that the contributions to the fund should be based on a modest percentage of profi ts rather than a percentage of assets? AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FORESTRY The President: We will deal, Hon. Member, with Question 16, if you would. Question 16. Manx uplands Mr Karran: I ask the Question standing in my name. Illegal use of motor vehicles

The President: I call on the Minister for Treasury, Mr 17. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to Bell. ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry:

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr What his Department’s current policy is in relation to the President, in working up proposals for a revised Depositors’ illegal use of motorised vehicles in the Manx uplands and Compensation Scheme, I believe that a wide range of options all other public footpaths? and ideas should be considered. As such, I welcome the Hon. Member’s suggestions and will ensure that they are The President: Question 17. Hon. Member for Douglas borne in mind. However, I think it would be premature to North, Mr Henderson. make speciﬁ c commitments to elements of a future scheme at this stage. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I The President: Mr Karran. beg to ask the Question in my name.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne, Minister for Tashtee not agree that the problem is that we really do need Agriculture. something well before October, as far as Hon. Members are concerned? The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry Would he also not agree that this might not be another (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. little issue, as he was describing in a previous Question, but My Department views with concern the continued illegal the fact is this is fundamental to the economic basis of our use of motorised vehicles in the uplands and will continue economy on this issue and that we really do need some sort of to work with its partners in Government to prevent such timescale of how he sees he is going to fund such an important activity. issue, allowing for the fact that representations were made, The Department’s policy is contained within the Council back when the Scheme was set up, about creating the way of Ministers’ Report, ‘Practical Measures to Reduce Damage we should be properly funding the Scheme? to Upland Areas by Vehicles’, received by Tynwald in June 2006. This requires that the Department of Transport, the The President: Mr Bell. Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and the

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Department of Tourism and Leisure will work closely with about all these joint liaisons and working initiatives and so the Isle of Man Police Force to ensure that appropriate rider on, fi ne. Could he confi rm, though, that we have seen some education and enforcement of byelaws takes place. I am positive actions as a consequence of all this, where he says pleased to confi rm that this Department continues to execute there are joint initiatives in the hill lands? Can he confi rm, its responsibility through regular liaison with all interested in fact, where his staff were able to stop riders of motorised parties. Indeed, our Forestry Warden and Forestry Ranger vehicles and advise them and the number of instances where carried out joint patrols of the uplands with Police wildlife they were able to do this, or are we just talking about a one-off offi cers during TT 2009. thing: so he is able to answer this morning, Eaghtyrane? With regard to the Hon. Member’s reference to illegal The other point is, would the Minister acknowledge that use of footpaths by motor vehicles, the Department has no the areas that I am talking about, and that these footpaths direct responsibility for the enforcement of law on highways go through, are in fact areas of scientifi c interest which his or other rights of way, which is governed by highways Department is charged to take care of? legislation. The President: Again, we are in danger of straying onto The President: Mr Henderson. the next Questions. Minister for Agriculture. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Minister confi rm for Tynwald that, in fact, what The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. he has given us is a nice, rosy picture? What was, in fact, Inevitably, some of the areas will be Areas of Special happening over TT week – which has been fully reported to Scientifi c Interest, and possibly some of the areas ought to be him, if he can confi rm that – was that there was immense but, indeed, as you rightly point out, these are topics covered damage caused in the hill lands by illegal use of motorised by Questions further on in the Question Paper. vehicles. I was asked about positive actions. This is not just about Could he further confi rm that he is in receipt of a fi ve- window-dressing. We are working very seriously and very page report from myself regarding illegal use of motorised closely with our partners across Government and, as will, vehicles over the Easter period, several months ago, quite hopefully, be revealed as we progress through the Question clearly indicating deliberate damage to a nature reserve, Paper and the Answers are given, I do believe that we are, which was private land off highways, where as far as I more than ever, providing very positive actions. We have can see, nothing has happened? Could he confi rm for us, had the joint working with the Police offi cers; indeed, the Eaghtyrane, how many arrests were made this year, with wildlife crime offi cers came in to meet with the Department regard to illegal use of motorised vehicles thrashing around at the end of last month. Yesterday, we had a meeting with over our heather moorlands? the Minister for Transport, myself, various other offi cers and Mr Corkish, Hon. Member for Douglas West from DTL. The President: Now, we have got to be careful we do Again, this was one of our annual appraisals and reviews not stray onto further Questions. Minister for Agriculture, Mr Gawne, to reply, please. of how policies are progressing. So I do believe that we are taking this seriously. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I do understand the Hon. Member for Douglas North’s Well, the fi rst of the supplementaries is fairly easy: will position and I have considerable sympathy with him. I confi rm that I painted a nice, rosy picture? Yes, I suppose However, it is not for Government, or indeed Ministers, to say I have done such. ‘Well, I want to go out there and get prosecutions.’ What it is With regard to the other two parts of the supplementary is for me to say that I want to uphold the law. That is what I question, yes, I can confi rm that the Hon. Member for am about. I want to make sure that the byelaws are properly Douglas North has provided us with a report on damage to enforced. If my offi cers do not fi nd people who are in breach private land at Easter. of the byelaws, I cannot force them to force the riders to go With regard to arrests, successful policing does not off on to the uplands so that we can then catch them. necessarily result in arrests. Certainly, the operations that I acknowledge that we do still have a problem, although were carried out with my offi cers and the Police Force over I would also say, that said, this year more than ever, we are TT resulted in a very high profi le exercise which allowed my working much harder, much better, much more effectively, offi cers and police offi cers to talk to users of the uplands and across the whole of Government to deal with the problem. to discourage them from illegal use, which I think is probably ultimately the best way – although I do acknowledge that a few high profi le arrests would certainly assist, in terms of inhibiting people from illegal use. Glen Auldyn, Narradale and Millennium Way The diffi culty, of course, that we have is that the uplands Illegal use of motor vehicles are a very large area. We only have a fairly limited staff and it is always going to be diffi cult to actually police this issue 18. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to as, indeed, I am sure I have mentioned on several occasions ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: in the past when this issue has been raised. What action he will take to investigate and photograph The President: Mr Henderson. the illegal use of motorised vehicles at the head of Glen Auldyn and the apparent illegal access from Narradale Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. and the Millennium Way; and if he will investigate the Could the Minister just confi rm for us… When he talks damage caused to the heather and the environment and

Manx uplands – Illegal use of motor vehicles Glen Auldyn, Narradale and Millennium Way – Illegal use of motor vehicles Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1129 T126

take appropriate action and liaise with local clubs and One of the action points in the 2006 Council of Ministers’ the Department of Tourism and Leisure? Report was to ensure that the signage is kept up to date. Again, this was one of the points that we covered in our The President: Now let us try, Hon. Members, to shorten meeting yesterday and, again, as a result of the meeting this down by dealing quickly with each of the areas on the yesterday, we will be improving the signage. Question Paper. After the 2006 Report, a signifi cant effort was undertaken Question 18. Mr Henderson. to improve the signage. However, for whatever reason, whether it is souvenir hunters or whether there is some other Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. malicious reason, these signs and notices do disappear from Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I time to time. Certainly, the intention of both Departments beg to ask the Question in my name. – the Department of Transport and my Department – is to improve the signage. The President: The Answer, Minister. The President: Mr Henderson. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh There is a good chance that the areas of land to which the just confi rm, for public record, that what my questions are Hon. Member refers are privately owned. Whilst illegal use of interested in here, solely, is addressing the importance of our motorised vehicles on heathland in private ownership is not ecological environment in our uplands and the conservation the responsibility of the Department, my offi cers do report value of… and the destruction of the same when these any obvious offences witnessed to the relevant authority. motorised vehicles go off the beaten track, which they know When requested, the Department is also willing to provide where they should be? advice to landowners on how to tackle such abuse. Would he also confi rm that, in fact, the report I supplied Under the Wildlife Act 1990, areas of heather have no earlier in the year, shows quite blatantly that at least one large protection unless protected species are proved to have been group of motorised vehicle users quite deliberately went onto present, such as lizards or nesting birds, or the area has been a nature reserve – past a sign that said ‘nature reserve’ and designated as an Area of Special Scientifi c Interest. were deliberately going to go onto that, irrespective, and could he confi rm that is what we are talking about here at The President: Mr Henderson. the top of Glen Auldyn? Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The President: Minister for Agriculture. Will the Shirveishagh acknowledge that, even though he has had his TT initiative under way, in a high profi le area The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. of high scenic signifi cance… and indeed, would he agree, Certainly, in relation to the last point, and as the Hon. if assessed by his botanists, areas within the Question’s parameters here, Eaghtyrane, would indeed fall possibly for Member for Douglas North describes the blatant actions of designation purposes? Therefore, would he further agree that, some users on private land, that is certainly something to be in fact, this is worthy of further inspection and contacting condemned. the landowner, if necessary, and/or to examine his own land The whole point of designating areas as wildlife zones, further above here, where these vehicles have quite obviously wildlife reserves, Areas of Special Scientifi c Interest, is to accessed the top of Glen Auldyn through his land and caused protect these areas and it is, to say the least, disappointing much damage to the environment on the way down? when riders choose to completely ignore such designations. Clearly, if offi cers were present and had the powers in The President: Minister, Mr Gawne. these particular areas, actions would have been taken. Unfortunately, however, in these particular instances offi cers The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. were not able to catch the errant users. I can confi rm that this area has been receiving the attention I am also happy to confi rm that I fully understand the both of my Department and, indeed, of the Department of Hon. Member for Douglas North’s interest in this matter. Transport, and I understand, as a result of the meeting The uplands of the Isle of Man do have a huge importance yesterday, it was explained to me at the meeting yesterday in terms of ecological value and this is something that my that the Department of Transport does intend to undertake Department takes very seriously. works to signifi cantly improve the track in that area.

The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member for Malew and Santon. Millennium Way, East Baldwin Illegal use of motor vehicles Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister conﬁ rm that these areas are amply 19. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) signposted, notifying people that this is prohibited, or is it to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: just the footpath signs that are up there? What action he will take to investigate the illegal use of The President: Minister. motorised vehicles on part of the Millennium Way above St Luke’s Church, East Baldwin, involving vehicles being The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. deliberately driven off the recognised track onto the

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heather moor causing unacceptable damage to valuable Public and private land with animals conservation habitat? Illegal use of motor vehicles

The President: Question 19. Mr Henderson. 20. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I What his Department intends to do with regard to public beg to ask the Question in my name. footpaths, and rights of way (a) crossing its land, and (b) crossing private land, and especially ‘dead end’ tracks, The President: Again, Minister Gawne, please. where motorised vehicles are accessing these public tracks during lambing season, driving through animals The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry with lambs or pregnant animals? (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. With regard to land in private ownership, I refer to The President: We move on to Question 20. Mr my response to the Hon. Member’s last Question. The Henderson. Department, however, is working with the Department of Transport and the Green Lane User Group to identify ways Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. of keeping riders on track and preventing them from straying Ta mie shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I onto heathland. beg to ask the Question in my name. Track widening sometimes occurs when a section becomes impassable and riders look for an easier route. The President: Now, Minister Gawne to reply again. Regrettably, the remedy often involves the introduction of visually intrusive physical barriers, such as post and rail The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry fencing and signage. It would be far more preferable if the (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. tracks were properly maintained in the fi rst place, and this The use of our upland byways and greenway roads by is not the responsibility of my Department. However, I am vehicles is an ancient right governed by highways legislation pleased that my colleagues in the Department of Transport and the defi nitive maps. The Department has no powers, nor are now making good progress in improving the maintenance does it wish, to stop responsible and legal use of the Island’s of upland tracks, with around one fi fth of the tracks being greenway roads by vehicles. The Department is, however, upgraded in the past 18 months. keen to encourage sensible driving, through the promotion of the Green Lane User Code, which was developed by the The President: Mr Henderson. Green Lane User Group. In the Code, riders are requested to show consideration for wildlife and valuable habitats and to Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. take particular care in spring, when lambing occurs. Would the Shirveishagh acknowledge that what I am seeking here is – and his staff I am sure must have made The President: Mr Henderson. him aware of the area I am discussing with this Question, or asking questions about, Eaghtyrane – is the fact and will he Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. acknowledge that the land at the back of St Luke’s Church Would the Shirveishagh agree with me that, in fact, far that goes over to the Brandywell Road. Some of it, if he could be it from him to absolve himself from this issue by stating confi rm, in fact all of that, is private or DAFF? that the track upkeeps are not within his Department’s remit, Secondly will he confi rm that, in fact, the track is good can he confi rm, though, that he is the Department of DAFF up there, good enough for motorised vehicles and walkers for wildlife, agriculture and so on and that we have a serious and the like to access without any problem and can he issue to be addressed here. Again, would he acknowledge that acknowledge that the problem is that, irrespective of the track I have referred to these matters in my report, furnished to him being in good order before you get out to the Brandywell earlier in the year and I have raised it with him, where certain Road that, for some reason, reckless motorised vehicle users dead-end tracks could be closed off? Or he could request to have been expanding out onto the heather moor, which we his colleagues in DoT to close the dead-end walkways off to know about, is of conservation interest, which he has got motorised vehicles, especially during the lambing times. charge of, and what is he going to do about that? Would he accept that, certainly, this Hon. Member has witnessed gangs of bikers actually fl ying straight through The President: Minister Gawne. sheep with their lambs and pregnant ewes?

The Minister: Gura mie eu Eaghtyrane. The President: Minister. I cannot acknowledge the first element of the Hon. Member for Douglas North’s supplementary, inasmuch as The Minister: Gura mie eu. the staff were not entirely sure which area the Hon. Member I have no reason to doubt the eyes and ears of the for Douglas North was referring to in his Question. Hon. Member for Douglas North, so if he says that he has However, I do acknowledge that we have identifi ed that witnessed this, I am quite happy to acknowledge that he has the land, which is in our ownership, does require, perhaps, done so. I can certainly say quite categorically that I have some further fencing to discourage people from going off the no intention of endeavouring to absolve myself or to shift track in the fi rst place. Certainly, the offi cers are looking into the fi nger of blame to other Departments. I am quite happy how best that can be achieved without too much damage to to acknowledge my responsibilities and wherever there are the visual appearance of that particular area. abuses of the system, wherever evidence can be provided

Millennium Way, East Baldwin – Illegal use of motor vehicles Public and private land with animals – Illegal use of motor vehicles Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1131 T126 which shows that people are using their motorbikes in not my area of expertise. I am not passing the buck over inappropriate ways, worrying sheep, any of these sorts of to the Department of Transport; however, I am aware that issues, then my Department will act. my offi cers do check these sorts of issues. Certainly, if the motorcycles are found not to be properly taxed or insured, then they should not be on the upland tracks. These are public highways, so they are acting illegally if they are up Illegal use of motor vehicles there uninsured. DAFF and Police control in conservation areas I can also, though, confi rm that my offi cers regularly stop and speak to motorcycle users, and indeed have done when 21. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to we have had these joint operations with the Police Force. ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member for Onchan. If he will agree, when resources allow, to have appropriate members of his staff work with the Police to control and Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. reduce the illegal use of motorised vehicles in uplands Could I ask the Minister, would he indicate to the Court and in other areas of land and public footpaths which that the Green Lane User Group (GLUG) actually met last have conservation value? week? Could I ask the Minister for his views on that particular group? They are a supportive group for motorcyclists and The President: Question 21. Mr Henderson, please. four-wheel-drive users’ groups, and they do try and regulate – can I seek the Minister’s support on that – people who are Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. on the mountain when they are up there themselves, but they Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I may not be always members of their group. I just wonder beg to ask the Question in my name. what the Minister thought of the meeting that they had the other week. The President: Again, Mr Gawne, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, please – reply, sir. The President: Minister.

The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Yes I always believe it is important to have such user The Department already works closely with the Police to groups advising Departments. Clearly, those are the people reduce illegal use of motorised vehicles. Joint working in the who are out there regularly using… clearly our offi cers have uplands has proved benefi cial to both parties on a number of a certain understanding, but the people who are outside the occasions. Police offi cers have gained a greater understanding Government have a different understanding of issues and of the Manx countryside and the conservation value of the it is particularly helpful to have such a group as the Green uplands, whilst my offi cers are more appreciative of the Lane User Group. additional support given in patrolling such a large estate. I have now attended, I think, three or possibly four, Green Where vehicle owners clearly ride off track onto open Lane User Group meetings since the 2006 Comin Report was moorland and into sensitive habitats, the Department will received by Tynwald. I do think it has an excellent remit; exercise its powers against offenders under the Forestry it is there to provide advice to the relevant Departments. It Act 1984 and where land is designated under the Wildlife does provide that advice and provides it very forcibly when Act 1990. required. Gura mie eu. The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Henderson. Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Minister agree with me that one of the biggest Again, the Minister indicates to us the joint working, but problems is the identifi cation of the perpetrators? Quite often, what has transpired from joint working, if I could ask that of when I am walking out on the hills and we come across a the Minister. Have the Police and his offi cers actually been group of bikers, the numberplates are generally covered in in the uplands and stopped or spoken to motorised-vehicle mud. You cannot identify them. If they see you and they are users, even if just to ascertain the roadworthiness of the off track, they stop and go the other way. vehicle tax and insurance purposes? Also, one of the largest problems is that we do have Further to that, Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh visitors coming in from the UK who are not able to practise agree to liaise with all these people next time they are in the off road and they do not seem to have any respect for the uplands to actually assess if the vehicles are taxed and insured Manx countryside, (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) although and what transportation has got them there in the fi rst place, the Green Lane User Group do, with the meetings with if they are not taxed and insured, and if that transportation the Departments of Agriculture and Transport, know the is taxed and insured, as sometimes, as we see in the UK, it sensitivity of our land. most certainly is not? The President: Minister Gawne, please. The President: Minister Gawne, please. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. With reference to the fi rst part of the supplementary With regard to the tax and insurance, clearly that is question, clearly, yes, identifi cation of riders whose bikes

Public and private land with animals – Illegal use of motor vehicles Illegal use of motor vehicles – DAFF and Police control in conservation areas 1132 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers get splattered with mud is diffi cult and that is one of the uplands, should be looked at in this respect, because of their biggest problems that we face. However, I think any rider unique and European-recognised qualities? who fancies his chances ought to be aware of this: when we have been working with the Police Force, we have been able The President: Minister Gawne. to be much more effective, inasmuch as the communication system that the Police Force has enables it to radio through The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. to other vehicles, other Police offi cers, at different points, so Yes, I am happy to confirm that this is an ongoing that when a rider sees an offi cer, either of my Department or programme. I know that my offi cers are frustrated that of the Police Force, and heads off in a different direction, we perhaps they would like to move this on a lot more quickly can have a Police offi cer waiting for them when they come than they are currently able. Certainly, other areas around off the track at the other end. So I think we are being much the British Isles have targets of up to 10 per cent of available more effective now in that regard, which is a very positive land to be designated as Areas of Special Scientifi c Interest, step forward. and currently we are running at 3.55 per cent. So there is With regard to UK riders, at least one member of the still some work to do. Green Lane User Group actually conducts parties of UK There is a lot of very valuable habitat out there, which we riders as a proper programme and does a fantastic job there. believe does require the designation, and indeed, we almost It is a shame, in a way, that we could not get leaders to take have… well, we do have a statutory duty under the 1990 these parties around because, quite clearly, a lot of the damage Wildlife Act, to designate this land. is being caused by visitors from outside the Island. The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. Areas of Special Scientifi c Interest Could I ask the Minister what his intentions are after all Locations and future designation these sites have been designated? Is he working with the Department of Local Government and the Environment, who 22. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to actually produce maps for the Island, so they are upgraded? ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Maybe with his support and the Minister for DoLGE, as well, those maps could be provided to the Steam Packet when What areas of land on the Isle of Man have been people are coming across with motorcycles, and maybe that designated as Areas of Special Scientifi c Interest; and would be a useful tool. whether there are plans to designate further areas? Could I ask the Minister, does he have a view regarding… He mentioned the Jurby airfi eld. There is the Jurby Airfi eld The President: Question 22. Mr Henderson, please. Users’ Group – I have probably got the title wrong, but they are wanting to expand in certain activities there. I just Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu Eaghtyrane. wondered whether, maybe, his Department could encourage Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. them to provide some of the activities like trials riding, which is not that offensive. The President: Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Mr Gawne. The President: Minister.

The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. In terms of the working with DoLGE, obviously we are I am pleased to announce that the following 14 sites always happy to work with DoLGE, and I am sure DoLGE are have so far been designated as Areas of Special Scientifi c always happy to work with us. I am aware that the Ordnance Interest. These are: the Central Ayres, Langness, Derbyhaven Survey maps are continuously updated. What perhaps is a and Sandwick, Jurby Airfi eld, Ballaugh Curragh, Ballacriy weakness currently in the Department’s position is that we Meadow, Rosehill Quarry Billown, Ramsey Mooragh do not currently provide clear documentation to our website Shore, Cronk y Bing, Dhoon Glen, Eary Vane, Glen Rushen, and we certainly now have a plan to do that in the very near Pooilvaaish, Glen May, Greeba Mountain and the Central future, so that all the information about the sites will be Hills. In total, they cover 5252.95 acres. publicly available. In the current fi nancial year my Department has a target With regard to the Jurby User Group, or whatever they are for a minimum of an additional four sites of 500 acres to be called, I am aware that my Department does give advice to designated as Areas of Special Scientifi c Interest by March the people down there in Jurby and will continue to do so. 2010. Gura mie eu.

The President: Mr Henderson. Wildlife Sites System Joint working party Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane I am pleased at the progress the Shirveishagh and his 23. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to conservation colleagues have been making. The plan for ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: the next year is fair. Can he conﬁ rm that this designation programme is going to go further than next year, in fact, well What plans his Department has to recommence the joint into the future, as and when resources and time allow? working party on the introduction of a Wildlife Sites Would he confirm that, in fact, further areas of the System?

Illegal use of motor vehicles – DAFF and Police control in conservation areas Areas of Special Scientiﬁ c Interest – Locations and future designation Wildlife Sites System – Joint working party Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1133 T126

The President: Question 23. Mr Henderson, please. (c) in the case of British dependencies and territories the Isle of Man will eventually become part of the Northern Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ireland region, the Channel Islands part of Normandy, Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. Gibraltar with Spain, Malta with Italy; (d) in order to comply with its responsibility for the good The President: Again, Mr Gawne, please. governance of the Island and its EU treaty obligations the UK will be obliged to follow the EU regionalisation The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry plans, and other plans and legislation although the Island (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. is not an EU member; The Hon. Member may not be aware that the Wildlife (2) if the answer to 1(d) is in the affirmative, what Sites Project is an initiative of the Manx Wildlife Trust, implications this will have for the future economic which is supported by three Departments, the Department prosperity and well-being of the inhabitants of this of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the Department of Island; Transport and the Department of Local Government and the (3) what effects the Lisbon Treaty and the EU goal of ever Environment, which each contribute a third of the costs of closer political economic and monetary union will have the employment of a project offi cer. on the Isle of Man; and Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending on how (4) would the infl uence of the EU on the Isle of Man be you look at it, the project offi cer is currently on maternity reduced if the Isle of Man were not a dependent territory leave. She has six weeks of contract left to run on her return. of the UK? She has so far identifi ed 54 wildlife sites and I imagine the Wildlife Trust will reconvene the joint working group when The President: Question 24. Hon. Member for Onchan, the project offi cer returns from maternity leave and DAFF Mr Karran, please. will be pleased to continue its involvement. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing The President: Mr Henderson. in my name.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The President: Now I turn to Her Majesty’s Attorney I am pleased the Shirveishagh is still fully supportive of General to reply, please. this. Would he agree that the sites identiﬁ ed under the wildlife site system are quite… very important, inasmuch that they The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. help with the biodiversity of the main sites of the Areas of For the purposes of European Community law, all people Special Scientiﬁ c Interest that he spoke of earlier, Eaghtyrane, who hold nationality in any of the 27 EU member states, and this, too, is an important element in protecting the Island’s including the United Kingdom, are already EU citizens. This natural heritage? means that, while they are citizens of their home country, with the rights and responsibilities that citizenship involves, The President: Mr Gawne, please. they are also citizens of the European Union with extra rights and duties. The concept is, therefore, not a new one, The Minister: How can I do anything but agree with such is a development of the idea of freedom of movement for comments? Clearly they are important to the biodiversity of citizens set out in the Treaty of Rome 1957, and dates from the Isle of Man. I believe that there is an awful lot more that the Treaty of Maastricht 1992, which resolved to establish a we can do across Government, but also across the whole of citizenship common to nationals of all EU countries. the Isle of Man, private sector, voluntary sector, in terms of Article 8 of the Treaty of Lisbon 2007 states: promoting and protecting our biodiversity and I certainly will be playing my part in that. ‘Every national of a member state shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it.’

HM ATTORNEY GENERAL Mr President, for the purposes of European Community law, the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union and European Union consequently its citizens are not citizens of the European Future impact on Isle of Man Union. In those areas where the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man have elected to transfer sovereignty to the European 24. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask HM Union or the European Community, which is the entity with Attorney General: which the Isle of Man has its Protocol 3 relationship, it is true that domestic law may be subject ultimately to European law. (1) Whether it is correct that – In the case of the Isle of Man, this means that, by reason of our (a) if the Lisbon Treaty is ratiﬁ ed by all EU states and limited relationship under Protocol 3, European law affecting comes into force, British subjects will thenceforth have areas such as trade in goods and agricultural products, may both EU and British citizenship and the EU constitution well have primacy over domestic law, but only within the and law will have primacy over English and Manx law; limited framework by which European law in those areas (b) subsequent to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, the EU applies to the Island. has established a regional system on all member states In relation to part (b), Mr President, in 1994, the United which includes division of the UK into nine regions which Kingdom Government established 10 government ofﬁ ce will each be responsible directly to Brussels; regions for England in order to facilitate co-ordinated

Wildlife Sites System – Joint working party European Union – Future impact on Isle of Man 1134 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers government action at a regional level. The Treaty of Maastricht Mr President, the research which has been carried out 1992 had also tried to promote economic cohesion within the on my behalf in relation to this Question did not reveal the single market by encouraging the creation of regions in order existence of a report, as stated by the Hon. Member. If there to allow for selection of members of the Committee of the is a report, and I have overlooked that, I apologise and I will Regions of the EU. As part of the United Kingdom Labour look into it further. Government’s policy of devolution, these English regions, Insofar as the importance of EU matters is concerned, now reduced to nine, have been given regional assemblies I can say, Mr President, as Hon. Members will know, that and regional development agencies. The EU has a number the Chief Minister in particular pays great attention to EU of mechanisms designed to enhance regional co-operation matters, we have an ongoing and close connection with our within its territory. There is no suggestion that the regional advisers in Brussels and, of course, we have an External system has been imposed on member states by the EU, nor Relations Division, which keeps these matters very much that they will each be responsible directly to Brussels. under review. In relation to part (c), Mr President, as stated previously, Mr President, I am, of course, aware that the defi nition the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union and there of ‘Manxman’ in Protocol 3 is a restricted defi nition and, are no plans for that status to change. insofar as one falls within the defi nition, there is no right In relation to part (d), as stated previously, the Isle of to work in the EU. But, Mr President, insofar as nationality Man is not part of the European Union and there are no plans and citizenship are concerned, even though one falls within for that status to change. There have been no indications the defi nition of ‘Manxman’, one is still a citizen of the whatever from the United Kingdom that the Isle of Man United Kingdom and has the right to work in the United would feature in any EU regionalisation plans that may or Kingdom. may not happen in the future. In relation to part (2), Mr President, given previous The President: Now, Mr Karran, continue, sir. replies, the question is hypothetical and any reply would be nothing more than speculation. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Attorney General In relation to part (3), it is hard to reply to what amounts tell us what sort of issues he has requested the Council of to a speculative question. The entire Lisbon Treaty EU project Ministers to investigate, as far as the issue of the EU is is in the development stage, and it is hard to predict which concerned? The issue of the Royal Prerogative… If there is way events will turn out. From the point of view of the Isle of any issue as far as the Royal Prerogative is concerned, then Man, indications are that it is likely to be business as usual, the issue of the United Kingdom Government giving up its since our special limited relationship with the European sovereignty would almost certainly mean that then the issue Community, although to be consolidated under the name of of the Royal Prerogative ends up going through the EU, if the Union, will be preserved. I am not mistaken. Finally, Mr President, in answer to part (4), given that the Would the Attorney General also tell us that… Allowing Isle of Man’s trading partners are overwhelmingly members for the fact that there are nine regions of the United Kingdom of the EU or at least within the European Economic Area, and the fact that somebody is paying for the issue of these given further that the Isle of Man is in customs union with the regional assemblies in the United Kingdom, and the fact that United Kingdom and that its neighbours are members of the most of the citizens of the United Kingdom have not got a EU, it seems highly likely that, even if the Isle of Man were clue that this is happening, what assurances can we have not a Crown dependency, it would continue to be infl uenced that we have really got the fi nger on the pulse as far as this substantially by the EU. issue, allowing for the Lisbon Treaty, allowing for the fact that our constitutional position with the United Kingdom is The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. that we do not actually become part of the EU de facto, and the major economic base of this Island as a low-tax area ends Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Attorney General up being lost because we have not kept our eye on what is consider the fact that, on part (c), there is a report out that going on? actually clarifi es the issue of the Northern Irish region – the Isle of Man will be part of that territory. The President: Mr Attorney. Can the Attorney General also explain at the present time whether we are taking suffi cient cognisance as far as this The Attorney General: Mr President, I think that I can important issue is concerned, allowing for the fact that Manx best answer that by perhaps going back to fundamentals. people of three generations have not got freedom within the The relationship which the Isle of Man has with what is, in EU, as far as work is concerned, apart from in the United essence, an international treaty, is that the Isle of Man would Kingdom, allowing for the fact that the United Kingdom be consulted very carefully, I am quite certain, by the United Government has gone through primary legislation which Kingdom if there were to be a proposed change in the status of they can give very little notice of the fact that the freedom to the Isle of Man vis-à-vis the EU. As we know, Mr President, it roam that was in the fi rst part of the Question, as far as EU is our Protocol 3 relationship which governs our relationship citizens are concerned… that restriction could be put onto with Europe and there is absolutely no indication, so far as persons within the Isle of Man, and can he – I am aware, that the United Kingdom has any plans to alter that relationship. I do not think, Mr President, that the Royal The President: Hon. Member, I think there are three Prerogative has any particular relevance in this area. supplementaries there already. I will allow you to come There is no doubt, Mr President, that English law, as well back. as Manx law, is trumped by European law in certain material Mr Attorney – the answer so far, sir. and important respects, and that was recognised by Lord Denning a long time ago in the English courts. Insofar as the The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. Isle of Man is concerned then, Mr President, our relationship

European Union – Future impact on Isle of Man Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1135 T126 is specifi cally defi ned by Protocol 3. We know that that is the Ministers when that was discovered. All I can say, Mr a limited area. There is no indication, so far as I am aware, President, is that when one drew these matters to the attention that that is to be altered in any way. of the UK authorities, an apology was given and our position So far as the regional assemblies in the UK are concerned, has been protected, as far as it can be, by a memorandum Mr President, again as I indicated, that area has no relevance of understanding thus far. I quite accept that that is not an whatsoever to the Island. ideal solution, but nonetheless it is some way to protecting our position. The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for We have been assured, Mr President, that our relationship Michael. with the United Kingdom and with Europe, in the context of travel and nationality, will not be affected without Mr Cannan: Mr President, would the Attorney General prior consultation. We have to ensure that that promise is be kind enough to clarify if, as the EU law takes primacy over upheld. UK law – and in the courts of the Isle of Man from time to time legal precedent is quoted from UK case law – would that The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for precedent not be partly due to the infl uence of EU law? Michael. Secondly, in disputes in civil cases in trading matters with the EU and the EU countries, which law would take primacy: Mr Cannan: I thank the Attorney for his previous answer, the law of the Isle of Man, or would it ultimately be the law but would he concur that the best advice given to all contracts of the European Union? I am talking about civil cases, not signed by both the public and private sector in the Isle of Man, criminal cases – civil disputes and trading disputes. with fi rms and businesses operating within the European Union, is that the contract says that any dispute is settled in The President: Mr Attorney. the courts of the Isle of Man, to minimise any doubt in the matter? Would that be the best advice available? The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member raises a very interesting point. The The President: Mr Attorney. position, which is well established in Manx law, is that the law of England will be persuasive in the courts of the Isle The Attorney General: Mr President, I am quite sure of Man to the extent that Manx law does not differ from that that is good advice in most cases. There may be very English law. special cases where the contract should be governed by some The essential point, I think, is this, Mr President: other system of law, if the contract has a real connection with that Manx law comprises the Protocol 3 relationship and that other system of law; but I quite agree that, ordinarily, therefore, to the extent that it were to be argued that English contracts entered into by Government Departments with other law outside Protocol 3 was binding in the courts of the Isle entities should be governed by Manx law, so that the dispute of Man, that would be an erroneous submission and I think comes to the courts of the Isle of Man. that the courts here would throw out any such English law precedent. It has to be restricted to the subject matter covered The President: Finally, Mr Karran. by Protocol 3. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, thanking the Attorney General The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. for reassuring us that they are not allowing the situation that we have got to look after ourselves, could the Attorney Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Attorney General General give us some idea of what recommendations he explain to this Court, how can we have confi dence that has made, as the legal expert for the Council of Ministers, we really have got the fi nger on the pulse when we talk of the hit list of requirements that need to be taken, if we about the consultation of the United Kingdom Government fi nd ourselves in the position of where the EU will use being proactive towards us, when we allow for the issue of their protocols and the constitutional position of the United restriction as far as travel was concerned, when it actually Kingdom to bring in such policies as trying to do away almost went through before anybody realised that there was with the major economic base of this Island, our fi nancial a potential problem, as far as free transport between here and sector? the United Kingdom? Will he ask the Council of Ministers to look at the issues Can the Attorney General explain to us how can we feel of maybe a written constitution, the issue of the Royal Assent, so confi dent if the UK Government is not prepared to fully which I initiated some considerable time ago, to be reviewed inform their own citizens of the effects of the Lisbon Treaty, again, to not allow a situation where the EU could use the who actually vote for them, that they will be keeping us as Royal Assent, through the actions of the United Kingdom broadly briefed as we should be on this important issue? Government, that is servile, so that that cannot happen?

The President: Mr Attorney. The President: Mr Attorney.

The Attorney General: Mr President, I do not think there The Attorney General: Mr President, I certainly would is any doubt that we have to look after ourselves. We have not hold myself out as being a legal expert in relation to to have very much a weather eye to what is going on in, as European law, or perhaps in other areas, either, but one can it were, the stormy seas of Europe. only do one’s best. There is no doubt, Mr President, that in the context of Mr President, it seems to me that, if one is talking about the travel arrangements, as the Hon. Member describes a hit list of topics which are of particular interest, clearly, the them, there was an admitted lack of consultation – there harmonisation of laws in relation to taxation are of crucial is no doubt about that – and apologies were made to us by interest. All I can say, Mr President, is that there has been

European Union – Future impact on Isle of Man 1136 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers no suggestion, either at United Kingdom or European level, makes life extremely hard for youth workers, social workers, that our ability to fi x our own laws in relation to taxation and carers, parents even, when two children commit the same rates of taxation will be prejudiced in any way. That is an offence in two different schools and one is suspended and area which is reserved to us as a matter of internal, domestic the other one is not suspended – it sends out a very mixed law and if that were to be altered or an attempt were made to message? alter it against our will, then of course that would produce a Would the Minister take back with her today my concerns very real constitutional issue. with regard to this and revisit the situation, as I say, with I have to say I would fi nd it diffi cult to comment at the the jurisdiction the size of the Isle of Man, that the same moment on the necessity for a written constitution or how discipline in all schools should be equal; one school should Royal Assent plays in this area, but I hope I have been helpful not be higher than the other on how they deal with these to the Hon. Member. matters?

The President: Minister.

EDUCATION The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is an interesting point and, of course, I would agree Suspension of pupils that all the schools should be acting in a consistent manner. I Guidelines for schools am certainly happy to take that matter back to the secondary headteachers and raise it with them for their consideration. 25. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to ask the Minister for Education: The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Member.

Whether her Department has set guidelines that apply Mr Waft: Mr President, I wonder if the Minister, when to schools with regard to the reasons why a pupil can be looking at this situation, will clarify with the secondary heads suspended from school with any recommended period of etc that they take into consideration the family mechanics of time for such a suspension? the household and the situation that the child ﬁ nds himself in, and whether the pressures there have had anything to do The President: We go on to Question 25 and I call on the with his missing school on that day. Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey. The President: Minister. Mr Malarkey: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The Minister: I would hope that they would at all times bear in mind the family situation of any of our pupils, but if The President: The Answer is in the hands of Mrs Craine, there should be any circumstances where that is not apparent, the Minister for Education, please. I would be grateful for any Member to raise that with me.

The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Mr President. Matters to do with school discipline are delegated, within Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh Ynsee the articles of government for each school, to the headteacher inform this Hon. Court, when we are talking about the in respect of pupil suspensions of up to ten days in any one guidelines applied to schools, as far as suspension is school term, and to the school governors in respect of pupil concerned, what guidelines are there, as far as the fact that suspensions longer than ten days in a term. if they suspended for a week, how many hours in that week Articles 17, 18 in 19 apply and the Department has they will actually get any tuition as far as that situation is provided all schools with its detailed policy and procedures concerned? for the ways in which a suspension is to be handled. Would she not agree that localising this issue onto However, neither the articles nor the policy and procedures secondary schools has actually given the opportunity for these detail reasons for which a pupil might be suspended, nor people to disappear out of the whole educational system? the duration of such suspensions. The Department believes Would the Shirveishagh look at the issue of the guidelines, the decisions about such issues are taken properly by the as far as how many hours these youngsters who are then headteacher and the governors because they are closer to the banned from school actually get teaching, in order to make issue and can, therefore, make sure that any penalty applied sure that they do not end up in a situation where they get into to a child is appropriate, proportionate and relevant to the the wrong crowd and then end up with problems with drugs speciﬁ c circumstances. and other things, like I have recently had with a constituent of mine? The President: Mr Malarkey. The President: Minister. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for her Answer. I think the Minister The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. knows my concerns. The Hon. Member raises the issue of the amount of hours Does the Minister not agree with me that, in a jurisdiction that students will get taught whilst on suspension. Can I the size of the Isle of Man, it is extremely important that if just make it clear that, if a child is suspended up to 10 days, one school is handing out punishment for one crime – ‘crime’ no provision is made, and that can be up to 10 days in any being the wrong word – that another school should be equally term. It is normal, in fact, for those suspensions to be of one, treating this the same way. Would she agree with me that this two or three days in length, and so at that point it really is

European Union – Future impact on Isle of Man Suspension of pupils – Guidelines for schools Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1137 T126 not practicable to be able to implement any form of off-site Mr President, and that is to try and take the responsibility provision for those students. However, where suspensions for young people away from the parents. I am afraid I do are longer than 10 days, education is provided. It is not not know what the Hon. Member is referring to when he necessarily provided in the formal sense that we may expect refers to Glen 1 and Glen 2 and provision that we used to – that is an off-site provision in a classroom atmosphere, but make. Where children are on long-term suspicion (Laughter) probably one to one – but that education may also involve – suspension – we do make provision for them at a unit outdoor activities and pursuits, so I would hope that their that we have, but I would suggest that if a child has been time would be fully occupied. suspended from school then there is a misdemeanour attached to their behaviour at school, and it is for the parents to deal The President: Mr Malarkey, Hon. Member. with that, not for us to try and mop up every problem and maintain them in an educational institution. I think that the Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. family has to be responsible for their children, especially In a similar vein, can the Minister confi rm that, under when it comes down to short-term suspension of one or two Manx legislation, any child who is suspended from school days. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I do not actually think that for less than 10 days, we have no powers to make them stay that is beyond the wit of man. at home during school hours? Legislation in the UK… a child who is suspended for less than 10 days has to be confi ned to The President: Mr Malarkey. the house at least for the period of school lessons. Can the Minister tell me whether we are making any Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. progress – because I have brought this to her attention in Understanding where the Minister is coming from with the past – of going down similar lines to stop these children this, would she not agree with me that the responsibility falling into play areas where they can then go down the of a school, if a child has been misbehaving, is to ring the wrong road? Probably, the very fact that they are suspended parent up and ask the parent to collect the child from school? in the fi rst place could well mean that they are going down Unfortunately, the children who are suspended, more often the wrong road, and allowing them out on the streets and not than not, are the very ones whose parents do not really care confi ned to their own house really is only just giving them very much or will not even come and take them out of school, an extra few days off school. but in fact turn round and say, ‘Well, just send them home – I’m working!’ The President: Minister, Mrs Craine. The President: Minister. The Minister: Yes, Mr President, in fact that is the case. In the UK, there is legislation that suspended pupils can be The Minister: Yes, I think we can talk in general terms kept to their own home during the hours of school. We do here, Mr President. not have that legislation here. We do, from September, have Some parents are responsible and some are not so the ability for young people who are wandering the streets, responsible, but that does not alter the fact that if a child if they are on truancy or outside of truancy… if they are seen misbehaves in school and there is good reason for that child to be in any form of danger or vulnerable in any way, they to be suspended and removed from the premises – and, in can be returned to a safe place. fact, restricted from returning to those premises, because it However, I would suggest, Mr President, that keeping has been known that pupils have returned to school, once young people in their own home during terms of suspension, been suspended, and have created havoc… So I do think that, where there may not be any adult supervision, is not once there is a suspension in place, it is up to the parent to necessarily the wisest course of action. So, whilst we are take on their responsibilities and look after the children and giving the matter some thought, I think that we do need to make provision for them. give this some consideration before we make any decision. The President: I think we have given the Question a The President: Mr Karran. good airing. Final supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh Ynsee just Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Ynsee clarify that the issue of Glen 1 and Glen 2, which we were not agree that we all understand the responsibilities of parents, keen on trying to develop some sort of service with the former but would she not consider that what she should be doing, use of Include as far as an agency… that the fact is that surely as a Department, as it is not an individual issue, is when we should be saying that, for these people who are suspended children are suspended from school, the Department should for one, two or three days, we should not be washing our be providing a facility, especially with initial suspensions of hands, because we are actually helping to encourage a one or two days, so that you are not rewarding kids to walk situation where we are actually rewarding the offenders by around the streets, you are not pushing their proﬁ le up and the fact that they have got two or three days off. encouraging other people, but you actually provide what Will she look into the issue of whether, in the initial stages was originally proposed when we did away with corporal of being suspended for one or two days, they have to go punishment in schools – that we would put alternatives in, somewhere else that is run by the Department of Education and we have not done it? in order that… The fact is you have got to try and nip anti- The President: Minister. social behaviour in the bud, not reward it. The Minister: I think we might as well not have the The President: Minister. sanction of suspension then, Mr President. I think that it is not a question of rewarding young people; it is a question The Minister: I think we are in a difﬁ cult position here, of isolating them from school for a period of time, for them

Suspension of pupils – Guidelines for schools 1138 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers to cool off, before they can be returned. I do not think that the law, not having to employ consultants to advise us on it is necessary for this Department to make provision for how to implement it after three years? young people on short-term suspension, when in fact, when Would he also not agree that the Chief Minister and this it comes to long-term suspension, we do make that provision Court has a Standing Committee, just announced last week in a serious manner. by the Chief Minister, that is now renamed the Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities, and one of its aims is that it provides key support to community groups and voluntary organisations and assists efforts to raise awareness of what HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY is available and accessible to people with disabilities in the Isle of Man? Would he not agree that we already have Disability Act that expertise and we do not need to employ consultants Cost of consultants re introduction to come in to ask these people what they are about and what our needs are? Would the Minister consider taking it 26. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Lowey) to ask the back and considering whether the necessity is there for this Minister for Health and Social Security: unnecessary expenditure?

How much the proposed three-year contract to consultants The President: Minister. to advise on introduction of the long awaited Disability Act will cost; as a similar Act has been in operation The Minister: I would like to thank the Hon. Member in the United Kingdom for a very long time, why it is who has just resumed his seat for very politely reminding necessary to employ consultants; and if this money me of the chronological events since the passing of the would not be better employed in directly helping Manx equivalent legislation in the UK a decade ago and in the Isle disabled people? of Man in 2006. I agree that we do have a duty to implement it as soon as we can, but where I would disagree with the The President: Question 26. Hon. Member of Council, Hon. Member is with his assertion that we already have the Mr Lowey, please. expertise. To draw up the documentation, to actually draw up the regulations after undertaking appropriate consultation, Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. not only in Government but outwith Government as well, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. is going to take some time and be quite labour intensive. However, I do acknowledge that it may be that if the tenders come in higher than expected, then we will have to consider The President: This time, I call on the Minister for Health alternative ways of taking it forward, sir. and Social Security, Mr Teare. The President: Mr Lowey. The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr Teare): Thank you, Mr President. Mr Lowey: Would the Minister not agree that the It is intended that the work to implement the Disability experience that I referred to from directors, deputy directors Discrimination Act 2006 will be the subject of a tender and managers… I will not recite them all, but I have a fl ow process in line with Financial Regulations. Therefore, I would chart which shows there are a lot of experienced people suggest it would not be prudent to make public our estimate of there, in your Department as well as outside, advising the cost, as this could defeat part of the purpose of going out Government. to tender. In order for a successful implementation, there is a My point is this, sir: you can only spend that pound once. need for wide-ranging consultations and the development of If it is a six-fi gure fi gure over a three-year period, I think most detailed regulations, statutory guidance and codes of practice Members of this Court would rather that money was spent affecting all of those to provide goods and services. on the people in aids and advice internally, and perhaps if This is a signifi cant undertaking, and it has been agreed there is not the experience in the Department, then it could that this is a piece of work best undertaken by consultants be spent on them going to see where best practice is being who can bring experience from other jurisdictions to assess conducted and apply it here in the Isle of Man. I welcome the our process in the Island. Without this, it is likely that the fact that he would at least reconsider that position. implementation process could take much longer and be less effective, sir. The President: Minister.

The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. The Minister: I did say in my earlier answer, sir, we will certainly re-evaluate the position once the tenders are Mr Lowey: While accepting the point that the Hon. received. I would once again repeat that, whilst we have Minister makes – that he is not able to do it – it is substantial expertise in the Department, what we are looking for is sums of money. Would the Minister not agree that the United relevant expertise within this highly specialised area. I Kingdom has had an Act in for over a decade? We passed the acknowledge that we can only spend the money that this Hon. Bill three years ago, so your Department has known that these Court has entrusted to this Department once, and we need to requirements are to be made, over the last three years. focus on spending it on people, not on procedures. Having looked at the Department structure, we have a The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. lot of experienced people there, and your job, sir, and your Department’s job, is to implement the law of the Isle of Man. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Would he not agree that we already have that expertise and it not agree that the fact is this is a direct effect of the bad should have been getting deployed in actually implementing management, as far as the Council of Ministers and how we

Suspension of pupils – Guidelines for schools Disability Act – Cost of consultants re introduction Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1139 T126 spend public funds? The reason we are employing consultants However, the Department is committed to ensuring that is because we all know that Government in general will have the range of services it provides is of a high standard and a horrendous fi nancial liability, once this piece of legislation meets the needs of the Island’s population and, in that regard, is in place. systems are in place to review and, where necessary, seek to Allowing for the fact that the Hon. Member of Council, improve service provision on an ongoing basis. Mr Waft, has been on about this subject for the last 10 years, is In relation to dentistry, I can advise that the primary he not thinking that it is stretching the realism and intelligence care salaried dental service have recently participated in a outside this Hon. Court to come up with such excuses, that benchmarking exercise along with services from England and this issue is purely about having consultants and you do not Wales, the results of which are expected some time later this have to implement the legislation because you have not got year. Any areas for development will be a focus for future the money? Does he realise that it is only going to get harder service planning. In the meantime, should the Hon. Member and this section of the community deserves equal rights, as have any specifi c issues relating to the management of the far as this affair is concerned? dental service which he would like to bring to my attention, I will ensure that they are investigated. The President: Minister Teare. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. The Minister: It is always very easy, sir, to get the old skeleton out of the cupboard – bad management – and the Mr Karran: Will the Shirveishagh take the time to go Hon. Member who has just resumed his seat should remember and give the immunity to the receptionists who have to watch the effect that that has on the morale of the people who do the bad management, as far as the dentistry service provided a good job serving the population of this Island. It is bad by his Department? management – Will he undertake to go and talk to the receptionists on the front line who have to see the way resources are completely Mr Karran: Point of order, Eaghtyrane. and utterly wasted… the way that they have to try and defend I am not on about his staff; I am on about the bad the indefensible and put themselves in a totally impossible management of the Council of Ministers – him and his position… actually arrange for him to go and talk to these colleagues. (Laughter) receptionists with the freedom that they will not have any effects for telling him what is happening in the real world, The President: Mr Teare. as far as this dental service is concerned, so he can actually do the job that he protests very often in this Hon. Court of The Minister: Well, I thank him for his clarifi cation, sir! wanting to have a smart, lean, effi cient and effective service It is very nice to have his learned opinion! which is value for money for the taxpayer? I am not giving excuses, sir; I am giving reasons – reasons for the action that the Department is currently considering The President: Mr Teare to reply. taking, and reasons why we anticipate there will be various steps to take in implementing this legislation. The Minister: Mr President, I am pleased to confi rm that, quite some time ago – I think it is four or fi ve months ago – I did go out and I did visit some of the salaried dental services. I spoke to some of the dental practitioners and also NHS dental services the receptionists. I spoke to the receptionists without any of Plans to improve management the dental practitioners there for a while, so I am confi dent that I got feedback from them. It is my normal policy to 27. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the speak to people at the front end without their line managers Minister for Health and Social Security: there, so I can give them the opportunity, if they have any concerns, to talk direct to me. What plans his Department has to improve the bad management of the dental services by the Health The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Services? Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I ask the Shirveishagh… The President: Question 27. Mr Karran. The fact is that representations have been made to me about the issue of your visits, that you should not allow the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing situation of the mushroom factor. The situation is that you in my name. should actually arrange a meeting so that these individuals understand that they can talk to you frankly, in order that you The President: Minister Teare. know what is fact and what is fi ction and make sure that we can have an effi cient and effective service, because these are The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr the people who are having to defend the problems they are Teare): Thank you, Mr President. having on a daily basis, that they have no management input It is always easy to make wild assertions, especially if into and would have severe consequences if they did stand one is not fully aware of all the facts. I do not accept that up and say what they want. any evidence exists to support the Hon. Member’s assertion The President: Mr Teare. that NHS dental services are being badly managed. As I indicated at the May sitting of this Hon. Court, I feel that the The Minister: The Hon. Member will appreciate that dental services provided to people in the Isle of Man compare the Department does have a signifi cant number of salaried favourably with the services provided in the adjacent isle. dentists operating out of various locations within the Isle

Disability Act – Cost of consultants re introduction NHS dental services – Plans to improve management 1140 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Oral Answers of Man. It will be helpful to me if, off-line, as it were, he comment, too, that certain areas of administration, especially would have a private discussion with me and tell me which fi nance, were quite signifi cantly under-resourced. particular area – The Department is not, and I quote the expression used by the Hon. Member, ‘still growing’ its administration staff. Mr Karran: Arrange a meeting, then. That is defi nitely not the case. We have, over the last few years, delivered extra services to our patients, signifi cantly The Minister: – I should have a look at; otherwise it increased numbers of procedures, and that is a record that would be, in effect, not as productive as I would hope it this Hon. Court should be proud of, sir. would be, sir. The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Can the Shirveishagh understand the issue Health Services that who pays the piper names the tune, as far as the issue is Plans to improve management concerned? Would he not agree that if his own management at the top have instigated these recommendations, does he 28. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the not expect them to actually support the people who have Minister for Health and Social Security: initiated this review in the ﬁ rst place?

What plans his Department has to improve the bad The President: Minister. management of the Health Services? The Minister: I do appreciate that those who pay the The President: Question 28. Hon. Member, Mr piper call the tune. But, what I would say is that, in the Karran. Department, we also have another expression that if you take the Queen’s shilling, then you ﬁ ght in the trenches and Mr Karran: I ask the Question standing in my name. that is what we expect people to do. We expect people to deliver a quality service to maintain a high quality health, The President: Minister for Health and Social social care and Social Security system for the people of the Security. Isle of Man.

The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr The President: Now, Hon. Members, I think it is an Teare): Thank you very much, Mr President. appropriate time at which we take our break. The remaining Mr President, I cannot accept that the Health Service Questions, Hon. Members, will be dealt with in writing. suffers from bad management. I am proud of what has been achieved. However, I can assure the Hon. Member that bad management and also poor performance, when it is encountered, is dealt with head on. Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to permit The Department has a robust performance management remaining Oral Questions to be taken system, where performance targets are set and monitored. Motion lost I believe that the Hon. Member does a great disservice to the loyal and extremely hard-working managerial and The President: Mr Karran. administrative staff, who go to great lengths to ensure that we have a good quality and cost-effective health service, which Mr Karran: I wish to move the suspension of Standing enables our clinical staff to provide care to patients, sir. Order 3.5(2) to permit the remaining Question for Oral Answer to be taken at this sitting. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. I beg to move: That Standing Order 3.5(2) be suspended to permit the remaining Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I thank the Shirveishagh for Questions for Oral Answer to be taken at this sitting. his reply, and if he makes the offer that he gave to the last Question, I will be quite happy to ask him to look at this Mr Quirk: I beg to second, sir. issue, as well. Can he possibly inform us… The complaint is about the clipboard management that seems to be still Mr Cannan: May I speak to the motion, Mr President? growing. What control has he got from the Chief Executive’s As this is the last sitting before the summer recess and ofﬁ ce to actually do stuff to try and limit that and make sure there are many Questions to be answered, I believe it is that resources are going to the front line, instead of to paper important, in the public interest, that the opportunity is given pushing? for these Questions to be answered, otherwise the matter will be held over until October in many instances. I hope that The President: Minister. there will be support.

The Minister: It is quite interesting that two external The President: In that case, Hon. Members, we will go… reviews which were done in 2006 – certainly before my The Questions would not be held over. They will be given in time in post, sir – one by PriceWaterhouse Coopers, the writing, Hon. Members. (Members: Hear, hear.) accountants, and the other by the Healthcare Commission, We will go straight to the vote, Hon. Members. did identify that the amount of expenditure on administration within the Department was approximately 25 per cent lower Mr Cannan: Let us see what the governing party has got in the Isle of Man than they would have expected. They did to say. (Interjections)

NHS dental services – Plans to improve management Health Services – Plans to improve management Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to permit remaining Oral Questions to be taken – Motion lost Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1141 T126

Electronic voting resulted as follows: of Mr Houghton ﬁ rst, not last, of the four Statements, as I understand the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission In the Keys – Ayes 10, Noes 13 has a meeting with the inspector at three o’clock, Hon. Members. FOR AGAINST With that, Hon. Members, we resume our deliberations Mr Quirk Mr Earnshaw at 2.30. Thank you. Mr Karran Mr Brown Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Cannan Mrs Craine Mr Cregeen Mr Bell Mr Houghton Mr Quayle Mr Henderson Mr Teare Questions for Written Answer Mr Cretney Mr Malarkey Mr Gill Mr Braidwood The Speaker Mr Corkish HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson Isle of Man Prison Mr Gawne Dental visits

The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys the motion fails, 29. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the 10 votes for, 13 against. Minister for Health and Social Security:

In the Council – AyesAyes 6, Noes 3 (1) How often a dentist visits the Isle of Man Prison; (2) how long an inmate has to wait for an appointment; FOR AGAINST and Mr Callister Mrs Christian Mr Crowe The Lord Bishop (3) how long a law-abiding person has to wait to get a Mr Downie Mr Lowey dental appointment? Mr Waft Mr Butt Answer: In answer to the fi rst part of the Hon. Member’s Mr Turner Question, I can advise that a dental team (dentist and dental nurse) from the Salaried Primary Care Dental Service visits The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there the Isle of Man Prison once a week for a session averaging are 6 for, 3 against. The Branches are in disagreement. The fi ve hours. This level of attendance has been agreed with the motion therefore fails to carry, Hon. Members. Department of Home Affairs and takes account of the fact that The remaining Questions on the Question Paper will be the Department’s own epidemiological survey, carried out submitted in written form. The Answers will be given in in 2007, demonstrated a much higher level of clinical dental written form, Hon. Members. need in the prison, compared with the general population. Turning to the second part of the Question, appointments are allocated to inmates on the basis of clinical need. It is the nature of the prison population that higher levels of Thanks to staff re Tynwald Day dental disease are found when compared with the general population. The resultant higher dental needs, and the The President: Whilst I have your attention, if I may, transient nature of the prison population, result in a much Hon. Members, I would just like personally to place on record higher proportion of the dentists’ time being spent delivering my sincere thanks to the staff of our Offi ce in relation to the urgent care. The remaining time is used to provide routine preparations and the work done in the lead-up to Tynwald dental care, which is available to those with a sentence of Day last week. (Members: Hear, hear.) I appreciate, Hon. longer than six months. The wait for such an appointment Members, we drove them particularly hard, I think, this year, is dependent upon the level of urgent care needing to be but apart from the weather, I thought the arrangements which provided at the time. were made around about our Tynwald Day ran particularly In relation to the fi nal part of the Question, patients smoothly. So a big thanks to our Offi ce staff. outside the prison are seen according to clinical need. The Also, Hon. Members, I would like to pay, on this waiting times for routine appointments vary, although within occasion, a particular tribute to the departmental staff who the Salaried Dental Service the average waiting time is six do the footwork, as it were, in the preparation around St weeks, which falls within professional guidelines. John’s, whether it be Department of Agriculture, Fisheries A patient requiring urgent treatment, for example and Forestry men in the arboretum and all the surrounds, the with toothache, would normally be seen within 24 hours, Department of Transport men in handling all the equipment regardless of whether or not they are registered with a dentist and things which go along with it; but a general thanks. on the Island. This compares favourably with the target of 72 And a general thanks also, Hon. Members, to yourselves hours set by many English Primary Care Trusts. for the support which you gave to Tynwald this particular year. Hon. Members, having said that, can I also remind you that, in fact, there is a Commonwealth Parliamentary Termination of ReciprocalReciprocal Health AgrAgreementeement Association meeting at lunchtime today, which you are Proposals entitled to attend. We would be pleased to see you at that. Hon. Members, as a matter of good housekeeping, when 30. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the we return at 2.30, I will be taking the Statement in the name Minister for Health and Social Security:

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to permit remaining Oral Questions to be taken – Motion lost Thanks to staff re Tynwald Day Isle of Man Prison – Dental visits Termination of ReciprocalReciprocal Health AgrAgreementeement – Proposals 1142 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

(1) When he will be bringing forward proposals to cater (Note the Question asks for 2008 to date, but 2008 is already for the termination of the Reciprocal Health Agreement complete, so we have included the full year 2008 plus 2009 to with the United Kingdom on 1st April 2010; and date.) (2) whether he has managed to formulate proposals that are better than a departure levy but that are universal, simple to use and cheap to administer? Illegal use of motor vehicles in countryside Police and DAFF joint operations Answer: In respect of part (1) of the Hon. Member’s Question, the matter is being dealt with at Item 4 on our 33. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) Order Paper, although, Mr President, I can deal with it now, to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: if it is your wish that I do so. Turning to part (2), the Hon. Member will recall that he If he will agree to work with the Department of Agriculture, placed a motion before this Hon. Court in April this year Fisheries and Forestry by way of assisting the suppression seeking the introduction of a transport levy. Whilst the of the illegal use of motorised vehicles on public footpaths motion was unsuccessful it did attract considerable feedback and other rights of way on the Island, including the to myself, from the general public, all of which was hostile. uplands, when resources allow by way of – The consensus was that many felt that, as they had existing • initiating joint operations between the police and travel insurance, they did not wish to pay twice and for appropriate DAFF staff to apprehend motorised vehicle frequent travellers it was much more cost effective to take drivers who are behaving in an illegal fashion, or out a speciﬁ c travel policy. deliberately causing damage to sensitive habitat; • instituting a stop and check procedure of motorised vehicles using public footpaths/rights of way/greenways to ascertain correct and valid vehicle registration, HOME AFFAIRS insurance, safety of used vehicles and if not so validated Interception Modernisation Programme, UK ascertaining whether the vehicle was driven on another Statement road; and • if a transport vehicle was used to bring ‘off-road 31. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the vehicles’ to the area, checking that those vehicles have Minister for Home Affairs: valid registrations, tax and insurance and the transport vehicle is in a roadworthy state? Will he make a statement about the UK Home Ofﬁ ce’s Interception Modernisation Programme (IMP) and Answer: Mr President, I support the running of joint indicate his views on such a proposal in the Isle of operations taking place, subject to resources being available Man? in both agencies. Whilst the Department, via the Annual Policing Plan, sets priorities for the police, the decision for Answer: Mr President, although the Department has deployment of police resources lies with the Chief Constable, yet to consider this matter, if in due course it is decided to who will, of course, endeavour to prioritise demands and act progress similar provisions to those in the UK, Members of appropriately and proportionately. Tynwald will be fully consulted.

Handling complaints against former Deputy Chief Isle of Man Constabulary Constable Mobile phones used 2006-08 Funds for ‘Cheshire investigation’ 32. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the 34. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: Minister for Home Affairs: If he will provide – With regard to the Standing Committee on Public (a) the number of mobile phones in use by the Isle of Man Accounts Report on the efﬁ ciency and effectiveness of the Constabulary; and handling by the Department of Home Affairs and the Isle (b) a breakdown of their costs for the years – of Man Constabulary of certain allegations made against (i) 2006-07; former Deputy Chief Constable Neil Kinrade – (ii) 2007-08; and (a) what the source was of the £668,356 that was spent (iii) 2008 to date? on ‘the Cheshire investigation’; (b) in what way it was authorised by the Treasury and/or Answer: (a) The Isle of Man Constabulary currently has Tynwald; 134 mobile phones in use. (c) from which budgets of the Isle of Man Constabulary (b) The breakdown of costs is: and/or Department of Home Affairs this money was (i) 2006-07 £19,453 taken; and (ii) 2007-08 £21,843 (d) what reduction in police activity resulted from the (iii) 2008-09 £28,254 removal of funds that were spent on ‘the Cheshire (iv) 2009-10 to date £5,477 investigation’? 2008-09 works out at an average cost of £211 per phone Answer: Mr President, in answer to the Hon. Member per year, which is £17.57 per month. for Onchan’s Questions:

Termination of ReciprocalReciprocal Health AgrAgreementeement – Proposals Interception Modernisation Programme, UK – Statement : Isle of Man Constabulary – Mobile phones used 2006-08 Illegal use of motor vehicles in countryside – Police and DAFF joint operations Handling complaints against former Deputy Chief Constable – Funds for ‘Cheshire investigation’ Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1143 T126

(a) The £668,356 that was spent on ‘the Cheshire reasons for the delays are numerous, from late submission investigation’ was spent over a three-year period, as detailed by the local authority to outstanding information requested in the PAC report: by the auditors, the auditor having to audit more than one year’s accounts, etc. 2003-04 £243,487 The responsibility for producing accounts on time for 2004-05 £272,163 audit sits with the local authority, as a legally constituted 2005-06 £152,706 body in their own right. The Department’s role is to provide advice and guidance to local authorities, not to perform The expenditure represents less than 1 per cent of the functions on their behalf. Department’s overall budget for each year and was, therefore, The Department is endeavouring to ensure that all of able to be funded by managing existing budgets within the the aforementioned bodies submit their accounts for the Department. year ended 31st March 2009 by the 31st July 2009 deadline (b) As no supplementary vote was required, no required by the Audit Act 2006, and has written to all authorisation was required from the Treasury or Tynwald. authorities stating that it may impose ﬁ nes of £1,000, as (c) The costs were charged to the account for stated in the Act, if the deadline is not met. ‘Miscellaneous Expenses’ but as stated above, the funding was found by successfully managing other budget lines within the Department. (d) There was no reduction in police activity as a result Recycled material of spending the funds. Costs of kerbside collection; revenue

37. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: ‘Improper covert surveillance within police headquarters’ If he will provide a breakdown of – Investigating allegations (a) the costs to date of kerbside collection; and (b) revenue received for the recycled material? 35. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: Answer: Kerbside collections commenced in November 2008: the total collection cost for eight months of operation What the current situation is with regard to the are £274,264. This fi gure includes staffi ng costs, vehicle investigation of allegations of ‘improper covert operating costs, transportation costs and costs associated surveillance within police headquarters’ that was investigated by the Cheshire Constabulary? with the bulking and baling facility. Seventy fi ve per cent of the total kerbside costs can Answer: Mr President, the situation is the same as it was be allocated to those directly associated with material in 2005, which was that the investigation was concluded. collection. In relation to the detailed fi ndings, I would refer the Hon. On average, the scheme collects 137 tonnes per month. Member for Onchan to the Hansard of Tynwald Court of Over an eight month period this has generated £57,090 in 16th February 2005, when a previous Minister of Home income from the sale of material, with over 80 per cent of Affairs, Mr Braidwood, made a statement on the Cheshire the income generated attributable to the sale of paper to a Investigation, having previously circulated a copy of a UK paper mill. briefi ng paper headlined ‘Operation Paramount’. Due to the time lag from collection to transfer and shipment of material to our reprocessors, estimates relating to income from material sales for May and June have been made. LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE A detailed breakdown of these overall costs has been ENVIRONMENT placed on all Members’ desks, for information. [See Table 37A]. Local authorities Outstanding audited accounts

36. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the Southern Plan Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Current position If he will make a statement on the number of local authorities that still have outstanding audited accounts; 38. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the and what action the Minister intends to take? Minister for Local Government and the Environment:

Answer: Mr. President, there are 24 local authorities, ﬁ ve If he will make a statement on the current position of the elderly persons’ housing authorities and six joint boards. Southern Plan? The Department has received signed, audited accounts up to 31st March 2008 for 14 local authorities, three elderly Answer: Mr President, Members will recall that, from persons’ housing authorities and one joint board. time to time, I have advised this Hon. Court of the progress Ofﬁ cers within my Department check with the auditors being made in the preparation of the Area Plan for the on a regular basis, to chase the outstanding accounts. The South.

Handling complaints against former Deputy Chief Constable – Funds for ‘Cheshire investigation’ ‘Improper covert surveillance within police headquarters’ – Investigating allegations Local authorities – Outstanding audited accounts Recycled material – Costs of kerbside collection; revenue : Southern Plan – Current position 1144 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

Table 37A

In January 2008 the Department announced the start of (b) I am unclear as to which earlier House Purchase the preparation of the Plan. In July 2008 the Department Scheme you refer but assume that you are referring to the published an Issues and Options paper, which was the subject ‘Government Mortgage Schemes’ administered by Treasury of public consultation until the end of October 2008. prior to 1999 when my Department fi rst became involved in Since then Offi cers of the Department have been working the administration of Grant Schemes for fi rst-time buyers. on the preparation of the Draft Plan, which I still expect to be I cannot comment on the success or otherwise of these published in October this year, in line with the Department’s earlier Schemes, as my Department was not involved at this Service Plan. time. The 1999 Scheme operated on a shared equity basis, The Draft Plan will be the subject of extensive public with mortgages provided by market lenders, as with all consultation and will then be fi nalised in line with statutory subsequent Schemes. It was not as successful in operation as procedures. the current House Purchase Assistance Scheme, which has been, in effect, in general terms since 2002 and has assisted over 1,000 fi rst-time buyers, both in the open market and in new build Government ‘approved’ properties. Prospective home buyers Possible assistance schemes

39. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Callister) to ask the Domestic properties for sale Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Estimated breakdown of number

Whether he has considered – 40. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Callister) to ask the (a) the possible introduction of a ‘rent to buy’ scheme Minister for Local Government and the Environment: to assist certain categories of prospective home buyers; and What the estimated number is of domestic properties for (b) the re-introduction of the formerly successful House sale throughout the Island in the following categories – Purchase Scheme or an appropriate scheme on similar (a) detached houses; lines? (b) semi-detached houses; (c) terraced houses; and Answer: Mr President, (d) apartments/ﬂ ats? (a) My Department is currently looking at a number of options, such as equity share and shared ownership to provide Answer: Mr President, my Department does not assistance to a range of prospective home owners, including collect data of this nature, as the domestic property sales the growing elderly population. Enabling powers under the are commercially managed by estate agents and private draft Housing and Local Government Bill 2009 have been individuals. widened speciﬁ cally to allow this sort of assistance to be Information of this nature would be obtainable from given in the future. My Department is also investigating the individual estate agents on enquiry, who will currently have options for purchasing suitable unsold developer stock to such properties available for purchase. This information bring it into the affordable housing sector. would offer a simple ‘snap-shot’ of the property market

Recycled material – Costs of kerbside collection; revenue Southern Plan – Current position Prospective home buyers – Possible assistance schemes Domestic properties for sale – Estimated breakdown of number Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1145 T126 which would be little use to Government as stand-alone Economic Affairs Division of the Treasury, but this exercise information. It is fair to point out the housing market does is only undertaken quarterly as part of the passenger survey experience seasonal trends which will have been impacted and not exclusively for the TT period. by the recent tightening up of the mortgage lending criteria However, the Economic Affairs Division will be currently offered by the fi nancial institutions. undertaking a comprehensive survey exclusively for Manx However, I can assure the Hon. Member that my Grand Prix this year and for next year’s TT, in order for us Department does follow closely the trends within the housing to further evaluate the success of our headline motor racing market. events. The information my Department holds regarding these I would like to thank the Steam Packet Company and trends are in relation to the activity, as tracked in the the Airports Division of the Department of Transport for Government’s House Purchase Assistance Scheme, and can providing the base data required to calculate the total arrivals be obtained form the Housing Policy Review Report which fi gures. is laid before Tynwald in this sitting. This identifi es average house prices and the impact of the current economic climate on housing sales within the Scheme. In addition, my Department is in regular discussion Villa Arcade and Gaiety Theatre with developers to work with them to ensure the delivery of Programme for remainder of summer season affordable homes. 42. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Lowey) to ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure:

TOURISM AND LEISURE (1) What the planned and advertised programme of the newly refurbished Villa Arcade is for the remainder of TT 2009 visitor numbers the summer season; Comparison with previous years (2) why the Gaiety Theatre has so few performances this season; and 41. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask (3) whether it is the policy of his Department to have these the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: two national assets kept closed for ﬁ nancial reasons?

What the visitor numbers are for this year’s TT period Answer: (1) The programme this summer in the Villa and how they compare to previous years, excluding Marina Arcade includes the brass band concerts, which Millennium year? started early in May and continue until the end of September and the Manx Music Season which has just begun and runs Answer: The detailed fi gures showing the number of through to the end of August. Supported by the Arts Council, arrivals by air and sea since 2004 are provided below, thus these free concerts continue to provide the Manx public and enabling comparisons to be made for a number of years both visitors to the Island opportunities to hear the very best in before and after the Centenary year 2007. I have assumed Manx music making. that the Hon. Member is referring to the Centenary TT in In August the Villa Arcade will play host to a major 2007, as opposed to the Millennium year. If that assumption colourful exhibition as part of ‘Colourscape’, which also is incorrect, I apologise. includes a walk-in colour sculpture in the Villa Gardens. This will be part of the ‘Family Fun’ Festival organised by the Table 41A Arts Council and will involve performances and workshops for children of all ages. Total arrivals on the Island for the TT races since 2004: The installation of the Wurlitzer organ should also be completed shortly and a recital will be planned as soon as Year Sea Air Total practicable, to complement the other activities in the Villa 2004 35,578 18,695 54,273 Arcade. 2005 31,463 23,435 54,898 (2) The summer season at the Gaiety Theatre this year 2006 30,791 22,134 52,925 was to include another popular musical in July from Bill 2007 47,230 24,624 71,854 Kenwright Limited (the production company that brought 2008 31,038 21,192 52,230 ‘Blood Brothers’ and ‘Cabaret’ to the Island). Unfortunately, 2009 30,131 19,948 50,079 whilst Kenwright had initially agreed for this particular show to come to the Gaiety for one week – which was all that was The fi gures show that the total arrivals on the Island for available – Kenwright subsequently decided they would be the TT races since 2004 have remained largely consistent at unable to come for less than two weeks and they did not have between fi fty and fi fty fi ve thousand, with the exception of two consecutive weeks available. An alternative show could the Centenary year when arrivals exceeded seventy thousand. not be secured in the time then available to us, hence we do A further rise is expected in 2011, given that it will be the have a programming gap in July. This is to be regretted but Centenary of the Mountain Course. The fi gures do not include was unavoidable and the show in question has been secured charters, cruise ship visitors or visiting yachts. for next summer. Unfortunately, it is not possible to extract from the total However, ‘The King and I’ will open on Monday, 3rd arrivals fi gures, the numbers of persons visiting specifi cally August at the Gaiety and will run until Saturday, 15th August. for the TT races. The categories of visitors staying in paid This will be followed by the BBC ‘CBeebies Tweenies’, accommodation, staying with friends and relatives, business opening on 22nd August, as part of our commitment to people, day-trippers or residents, are determined by the providing entertainment for children.

Domestic properties for sale – Estimated breakdown of number TT 2009 visitor numbers – Comparison with previous years Villa Arcade and Gaiety Theatre – Programme for remainder of summer season 1146 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

(3) I can advise that it is not the policy of my Department aids or adaptations, which can often be a barrier into gaining to have these two national assets kept closed. They are and retaining employment. very much open. However, as with all areas of operation Close liaison with the Department of Education, via the within Government, budgets are limited. Because of this, Isle Of Man College, allows us to direct suitable candidates, events for both venues must be chosen with care for their both long-term unemployed, or clients of the disability commercial viability whilst also trying to secure a wide range employment service, ensuring they are treated as priority of entertainment which addresses different age groups and applicants for intensive vocational programmes, such as the spreads events throughout the year. Over 115,000 people preparation for work course. enjoyed our programme of professional live entertainment Senior offi cers from the Department also meet on a in the last fi nancial year and the Department is committed regular basis with colleagues from DHSS to discuss areas to continuing to provide quality entertainment to the Manx of mutual interest and identify areas that would benefi t from public. collaborative working. A successful referral system has been established, enabling individuals to be identifi ed as early as possible so that they can be offered the individual coaching service. TRADE AND INDUSTRY We are all aware that the economic situation has changed markedly during the past 12 months. It is important, therefore, Long-term unemployed that Government is ready to respond to changing priorities Government policy and to be proactive in adopting strategies to ensure we are well placed to deliver on our objectives. 43. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the During 2008, the Job Centre underwent a considerable Minister for Trade and Industry: refurbishment and upgrade, moving from an outdated system of manual ‘cards’ and notice boards to a fully computerised What policy his Department and the Council of system, featuring touch screen technology in a modern and Ministers have to get the long-term unemployed back welcoming environment. into employment? As vacancies are listed in the Job Centre, they are instantly available via our website, ensuring that access to Answer: In late 2007, the Department completed a the latest information is available across the Island. The study into those persons considered as being long-term Job Centre site now receives the most visits of any of the unemployed, this being classifi ed as those out of work in Government websites. excess of 12 months. At that time, during a period of low The fi nal part of the Job Centre upgrade has recently unemployment, it was opportune, as well as important, to give been completed and we now have a dedicated training suite these individuals additional assistance to fi nd employment. and drop in Job Club. These facilities are available to all This is good for the individual by raising their self esteem and fi nancial independence; good for the taxpayer by reducing individuals registered as unemployed and will allow them benefi ts paid; as well as good for the economy, given the to attend scheduled training sessions in a variety of key skill general shortage of labour within the economy at that time. areas, or to have random access to computers in order to The study included private interviews with many of the update their CVs, compose application letters or undertake long-term unemployed to identify causes and seek ways to approved self study. To have such facilities available in the assist. The study highlighted a number of common issues heart of Douglas and provided completely free of charge will which affected a majority of those individuals within the be of signifi cant benefi t to unemployed individuals. long term unemployed group. The main issues that could be In conjunction with the Department of Home Affairs, addressed by the Department were: we are identifying individuals who would benefi t from • fi rstly, a lack of confi dence in approaching job training, advice and guidance following their release from applications and the interview process; prison. Education and training services are available whilst • secondly, a lack of skills or experience; these individuals are in custody: however, often it would • and thirdly, a physical and/or mental disability. be detrimental for these services to stop immediately upon In order to address the issue of confi dence and skills, release. We have agreed to fund individual sessions, to be held the Department engaged the services of a training and at the Job Centre Training Suite for a number of individuals, employment specialist to work specifi cally with the medium- many of whom have complex personal issues that would be to long-term unemployed on an individual basis. This diffi cult to address in a group training situation. bespoke coaching was required to identify both weaknesses The issue of young people who fi nd themselves not in and opportunities, resulting in an individual plan for each employment, education or training – often referred to as person. NEETs – has been identifi ed as a key priority, as there is a Additionally, all newly registered unemployed persons clear link between a lack of engagement during these early were invited to a compulsory interview, enabling early years and unemployment in later life. DTI has piloted a intervention and the creation of a personal plan at the fi rst series of bespoke, intensive training courses for this target opportunity. group, providing approximately 60 training places to date. The Department also operates the disability employment Results have been extremely positive, with the majority service, which plays a vital role in providing the link between of those who have undertaken the training having secured individuals who have a range of disabilities with the world permanent employment opportunities. A further 60 places of work. Again, we work on an individual basis with the will be provided in the coming year, and the Department is clients, in order to ascertain their particular needs and currently exploring the options for further vocational training, requirements. We can then work with local employers to aimed primarily at young people, in conjunction with the address these needs, such as training or the requirement for Isle of Man College.

Villa Arcade and Gaiety Theatre – Programme for remainder of summer season Long-term unemployed – Government policy Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1147 T126

TRANSPORT and greenway roads has been carried out in the past when there has been a danger to the public caused by a serious DoT public rights of way and footpaths deterioration in the condition of particular paths or tracks. In Transfer to DAFF for maintenance some cases, this has been to allow remedial work to be carried out and in others has been for the winter periods, when the 44. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) paths and tracks are at their wettest, when there is the most to ask the Minister for Transport: serious risk of further damage occurring. In order to allow the natural habitat along the track or path to fully recover, If he will arrange a high-level meeting with the however, would often involve remedial work followed by Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry with many years of closure in order to allow vegetation to fully the aim of transferring over all appropriate public rights re-establish itself along the path or track. of way, footpaths etc under its control and responsibility In many cases, the main damage is on the adjacent land for maintenance to the Department of Agriculture, onto which motorised vehicles have strayed. To repair this Fisheries and Forestry with the appropriate resources would require the co-operation of the landowner, whether and staff that it currently has for these purposes? it be DAFF or a private landowner. I do not consider that it is appropriate to close a public right of way for the sole Answer: A meeting was held on 13th July with purpose of preventing damage to land adjacent to the public representatives of DAFF and DTL to review the existing right of way. policies in relation to greenways and upland tracks and to The proposal to legally change the status of certain routes suggest new measures to protect their condition. This meeting such that motorised vehicles were prohibited, effectively reviewed the 2006 Report on ‘Practical Measures to Reduce making greenways and upland tracks into public rights of Damage to Upland areas by Vehicles’ and confi rmed that the way, has been considered in the past. However, I am willing work to control damage by vehicles should be continued. to consider re-opening such discussions with appropriate The measures will be refocused to both educate the green stakeholder groups, with a view to obtaining a consensus of lane users, particularly visitors, on how to avoid damaging opinion on whether such measures would be welcomed by the upland tracks and to arrange for prioritised works to the majority of users. Clearly, even if motorised vehicles were be carried out on specifi c sections of upland tracks most prohibited, there would need to be exceptions for legitimate susceptible to damage. users requiring access to property, land or livestock. All three Departments will continue to work closely to give the clear message that damaging these upland tracks is not sustainable. It is not considered appropriate to transfer the maintenance Hedge cutting responsibilities for public rights of way to another Respecting wildlife habitats Department, as they remain public highways and, as such, my Department has a statutory duty to ensure their maintenance. 46. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) Whilst DAFF may be willing to maintain the sections of to ask the Minister for Transport: greenway and upland track or public rights of way which pass through their land, they would not wish to be responsible If he will revise or review current departmental policy for those sections of greenway which pass through privately or working practices with regard to hedge cutting on owned land, meaning that there would be an inconsistency the Island’s roads so as to respect more fully the Island’s in responsibilities and maintenance standards along the predominantly rural character, sensitive conservation network. verges and hedges, and importantly to recognise that many hedgerows provide an invaluable habitat and wildlife corridors, sometimes the only place for our natural heritage to survive? Conserving public rights of way Closing off/limiting use of certain areas Answer: The Department carries out hedge cutting alongside roads around the Island in accordance with the 45. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) Hedge and Verge Cutting Guidelines which have been to ask the Minister for Transport: established after consultation with the Manx NFU, DAFF, Manx Wildlife Trust, Manx National Heritage, IOM If he will consider – Friends of the Earth and the Society for the Protection of (a) closing off certain public footpaths, rights of way and the Manx Countryside. I must emphasise that the majority greenway roads, or certain parts thereof to allow the of the roadside hedges throughout the Island are not in natural habitat to recover from damage and maintenance the ownership of the Department and would remind Hon. work to be carried out; and Members that the prime responsibility for cutting hedges sits (b) permanently limiting the use of certain public with the specifi c landowner; however, the Department does footpaths/rights of way or greenway roads which end in need to carry out hedge and verge cutting operations, when a dead end, such as those at the Glen Dhoo Track to Glen necessary, for safety reasons. This is to maintain visibility Dhoo Nature Reserve and the Corrany Trail which runs splays, prevent obstructions to carriageways and footways, along the side of North Barrule, through Glen Cherry ensure forward visibility on bends and to prevent obstruction to the walking public and horse riders in appropriate of road signs. places? Hedge cutting is limited during April, May, June and July to allow a ‘wildlife window’ during the nesting season. Answer: The practice of closing off public rights of way However during this period some essential work is still

DoT public rights of way and footpaths – Transfer to DAFF for maintenance Conserving public rights of way – Closing off/limiting use of certain areas Hedge cutting – Respecting wildlife habitats 1148 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers required to be carried out to ensure safety, particularly on visiting fi shing vessels and leisure craft since the relevant strategic routes, road race courses, and narrow roads where inner harbour was impounded. In addition, the totals include vegetation can physically obstruct the road. In order to mooring fee income from pontoons as the various schemes minimise the need for cutting during the summer months, the were completed. The totals are for completed fi nancial Department continues hedge cutting operations throughout years. the winter period. The Department is aware of the location of specifi c conservation and sensitive verges to which any In respect of Douglas, the total annual income was: necessary cutting operations are carried by agreement and 2001-02 £84,942 arrangement with the Manx Wildlife Trust. 2002-03 £100,296 My Department is aware and appreciative of the 2003-04 £118,117 importance of our hedges to the biodiversity of the Island 2004-05 £136,541 and we are now aware of more biodiversity friendly practices 2005-06 £127,710 that have been adopted in Northern Ireland as a result of 2006-07 £168,092 (Phase 2 pontoons from Oct 2006) the Convention on Biological Diversity. As a result, we are 2007-08 £161,865 going to review our policy and guidelines on hedge cutting 2008-09 £138,314 in line with our improved understanding of the importance of these wildlife corridors. In respect of Peel, the total income was: We appreciate that, on occasions in the past, we may have 2005-06 £2,750 appeared over-zealous in cutting back the hedges. This said, 2006-07 £10,817 there will always be a need for safety to be maintained on 2007-08 £13,677 our highways, so cutting back will occasionally be required 2008-09 £19,926 during the spring and summer months. (c) The impounding gates in Peel and Douglas are designed to open automatically when the rising fl ood tide reaches the level retained within the inner harbour. The Douglas and Peel port developments gates then remain open until the falling ebb tide reaches Costs of projects and returns the retained level, when the gates will automatically close. Therefore, both gates are designed to open and close once 47. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the per tidal cycle. Minister for Transport: (d) The cost of consultants are as follows: In respect of port developments at Douglas and Peel – In respect of Douglas Harbour (a) for each port, what the cost is of each project; As mentioned earlier, the cost of the impounding cill (b) what the total return has been each year since and fl ap gate was part of the overall cost of the Millennium commencement; bridge scheme. Consequently, no specifi c cost is attributable (c) how often in a tidal cycle (spring and neap tides) the to the harbour element of the scheme. The cill and fl ap gate gate can be lowered to give some measure of the reduction have been estimated to have cost £750,000. It is possible that in present access; the cost of consultants for such a scheme would have been (d) how much consultants have cost; approximately £40,000. (e) what the return is from local boats moored there; For Phase 1 of the marina, which only involved and the installation of the pontoons, the cost was nil, as the (f) how much ‘new money’ is raised from non-local boats Department tendered a design and build scheme. and how many such boats there have been each month? For Phase 2 of the marina, which involved construction of the boat park and slipway, as well as the pontoons, the Answer: The information requested by the Hon. Member cost was £8,458. is as follows: In respect of Peel harbour (a) In respect of Douglas harbour For the impounding gate, quays and footbridge, the cost The impounding cill and fl ap gate were constructed as was £213,961. part of the scheme to construct the Millennium road bridge For the marina, including pontoons, boat park and across the inner harbour. Consequently, there is no separate amenity building, the cost was £104,000. cost in respect of the cill and gate. It is estimated that the cost was £750,000. (e) In respect of Douglas Phase 1 of the marina cost £247,347 2001-02 £81,075 Phase 2 of the marina, including the boat park and 2002-03 £89,534 slipway, cost £1,011,282 2003-04 £104,241 2004-05 £117,624 In respect of Peel harbour 2005-06 £108,148 The flap gate, abutments and footbridge cost 2006-07 £148,604 £3,527,592 2007-08 £148,440 The marina, including pontoons, boat park and amenity 2008-09 £127,571 facilities, cost £2,766,640 In respect of Peel (b) The total return for each port has been calculated 2005-06 £537 using harbour dues and boat park rental paid by local and 2006-07 £4,195

Hedge cutting – Respecting wildlife habitats Douglas and Peel port developments – Costs of projects and returns Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1149 T126

2007-08 £7,680 Price Index press release issued by the Economic Affairs 2008-09 £7,035 Division of Treasury. The Retail Price Index is a weighted basket of the sample (f) It is not possible to estimate what ‘new money’ goods and services consumed by a Manx consumer and, to has been produced by visiting vessels following harbour this end, a vast sample of widely varying goods and services developments. However, the details for visiting vessels since is collected by the Treasury each month. Within this exercise, water was impounded are as follows: the Economic Affairs Division includes a small sample of air fares. As the Hon. Member notes, this sample of fares has In respect of Douglas income from visiting vessels was revealed in June a 12.1 per cent increase on the same fares 2001-02 £5,867 recorded 12 months ago. Until the latest RPI report (which 2002-03 £10,762 relates to the position as at 16th June), it is to be noted that 2003-04 £13,876 the average of the airfares collected by the Economics Affairs 2004-05 £18,917 Division had been falling. 2005-06 £19,562 The Hon. Member may be aware that my Offi ce, at the 2006-07 £19,488 (Phase 2 pontoons from Oct 2006) request of the Council of Ministers, produces a quarterly 2007-08 £13,425 report on air fares. I believe that this is circulated to Hon. 2008-09 £10,743 Members for their information. The Offi ce collects both actual fares indicated for travel from the airline’s website and The number of visiting vessels for completed calendar details of lowest available fares advertised in the local media. years was follows: The Offi ce collects a fare for future travel each month, for 2001 – 396 every single airline on every single route serving the Island. 2002 – 389 Therefore, there is no sampling issue. From fi gures collected 2003 – 292 by my Offi ce on similar dates in June 2008 and June 2009 2004 – 596 there has actually been a 13 per cent decrease in the average 2005 – 653 fare level. This may indicate that the airlines have adjusted 2006 – 678 the fares to take into account the fall in oil prices, as referred 2007 – 417 to by the Hon. Member. Alternatively, it could be that the 2008 – 576 airlines are responding to the global recession and attempting to increase the attractiveness of air travel to the public. In respect of Peel the income from visitors was: It is not the case that one set of fi gures is wrong. The 2005-06 £2,213 information used for the Manx RPI calculation is based on 2006-07 £6,622 a small sample of routes. These are essentially the major 2007-08 £5,997 passenger carrying routes. The fares included in the RPI 2008-09 £12,891 calculation are of the standard fare and of the same route, if looking to make an advance booking for two months hence. The number of visiting vessels for completed calendar It is the case that, for June, the standard (fully fl exible) fares years was: collected by Treasury were all marginally higher than at 2003 – 80 June last year but there were some signifi cantly higher fares 2004 – 70 on the sampled advance fares quoted. It should be noted 2005 – 184 that advance fares are volatile anyway and it could well be 2006 – 354 that the advance fares collected this month by Treasury are 2007 – 302 somewhat lower. 2008 – 403 The Board of the OFT is very much aware of consumer concerns about air travel and asked for far more thorough monitoring. The OFT’s fi gures are therefore also right. Crucially, the OFT fi gures do not, unlike with the Treasury OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING sample, include the cost of a fully fl exible ticket, as consumers very rarely buy these, and such fares, which are often aimed Negative RPI and decreased oil prices at business travellers, have not fallen in the same way as the Curbing rising air fares cheapest fares have (indeed, in the Treasury sample they are all marginally higher than this time last year). 48. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the I hope that the Hon. Member will agree with me when Chairman of the Offi ce of Fair Trading: I advise that this sector is one that is subject to a great deal of scrutiny by my Offi ce and is one where consumers are, Given that the RPI is currently negative, oil price is down in fact, being well served by my Offi ce and the competitive 30 to 40 per cent on 12 months ago, and that fuel price market conditions. increases are frequently used as justifi cation for price rises, what discussions the Offi ce of Fair Trading have had with airlines to curb the 12.1 per cent rise in air fares ENERGY POLICY WORKING GROUP over the last 12 months? Climate change Answer: Gura mie ayd, Mr President. Policies and strategies The brief Answer to the Hon. Member’s Question is that the Offi ce has not had any discussions with the airlines over 49. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask the increases in the fares, as detailed in the most recent Retail the Chairman of the Energy Policy Working Group:

Douglas and Peel port developments – Costs of projects and returns Negative RPI and decreased oil prices – Curbing rising air fares Climate change – Policies and strategies 1150 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

In terms of climate change and sustainability, what £1 million per year. This has been the result of much good policies have been developed and reviewed, and what work across all of Government. To assist this work, the 2008 strategies have been developed to determine the action Budget launched the Energy Initiatives Fund, which is now required to respond to the negative effects of climate being utilised by Departments to instigate energy projects change? in their Departments, and for wider Isle of Man projects. Since the launch of this Fund at least one member of staff Answer: Mr President, I thank the Hon. Member for in each Department and Board has been trained in energy her Question as it enables me to confi rm the Government’s management and auditing. commitment, its policies, and actions taken and, those that Mr President, I would like to highlight three examples. are being taken, in our endeavour to mitigate the likely effects Firstly, using waste heat from Pulrose Power Station of climate change. The international community, including and other internal projects has reduced the carbon dioxide the Isle of Man, recognise that climate change is a reality, emissions from the National Sports Centre building by more and as a responsible jurisdiction we will make positive than half. This amounts to a saving of 1,500 tonnes in this contributions to addressing the challenges climate change building alone. will bring to our community. Secondly, cavity wall insulation in a number of Health The Isle of Man is committed to reducing its emissions Care buildings have reduced carbon dioxide emissions by of greenhouse gases and has extended the UK’s ratifi cation 100 tonnes, at a saving of £16,000 per year. of the Kyoto Protocol to the Island. The Kyoto Protocol Thirdly, more effi cient lighting at Chester Street car park is an international treaty to set legally binding emissions has reduced carbon dioxide emissions by 55 tonnes, at a reduction targets on developed countries, the target for the saving of £21,000 per year. UK being an 8 per cent reduction below 1990 levels over The Isle of Man Government policy for public sector the period 2008-12. Although the Isle of Man has no legally housing has been to install cavity wall and loft insulation to binding targets, our commitment to the Kyoto Protocol over 6,000 DoLGE and Local Authority homes, which has means that we have to demonstrate that our actions and reduced their CO2 emissions by over 25 per cent. policies refl ect the principles of the Kyoto Protocol and that Energy effi ciency initiatives have also been extended we are aiming to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. To to local businesses and have resulted in reductions of achieve reductions we have looked at measures to promote approximately 300 tonnes of carbon dioxide, at a saving of better energy effi ciency practices by Government, businesses greater than £100,000 per year. and householders and are looking into the use of renewable The Isle of Man Government is in the process of sources of energy. developing additional policies, using renewable energy As part of our monitoring of greenhouse gas emissions, sources, that will further decrease our greenhouse gas we provide the UK with an annual update of all emissions emissions. This includes developing policies to encourage from the Isle of Man. This record goes back to 1990, since the development of the clean technology sector on the Island. when our economy had expanded rapidly to the great benefi t Globally, this is a rapidly expanding business sector that of our society. The National Income of the Isle of Man up offers future technology advances to further mitigate the to 2005 increased by 330 per cent, meanwhile the carbon effects of climate change. The Isle of Man wishes to become dioxide emissions per person were limited to just a 1.5 per a leader in the clean technology sector and hopes to build cent increase. upon the recent success of holding the world’s fi rst clean The Isle of Man has had some major successes in emissions motorcycle race during the 2009 Isle of Man TT. reducing our emissions of greenhouse gases, which is the Mr President, in conclusion, I would confi rm that I am main contributor to climate change. There are a number personally committed to continuing the good work that this of factors contributing to this successful decoupling of Government is already doing here on the Island to tackle the environmental impact from economic growth, not least of very important issue of climate change. which are improvements to power generation and energy effi ciency. With respect to power generation, Government has CHIEF MINISTER delivered two key improvements. Firstly, carbon dioxide emissions from power generation Legal representation have decreased by 40 per cent by moving from heavy fuel oil Increasing hourly rates and hours for Legal Aid and diesel to natural gas, making the Isle of Man’s electricity nearly 20 per cent cleaner than UK Grid electricity. 50. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Secondly, the closure of landfi ll sites has prevented Chief Minister: emissions of methane from decaying rubbish and allows energy to be recovered, using the Energy from Waste plant. (1) How long persons in custody have to wait for legal This provides up to 10 per cent of the Isle of Man’s base load representation – electricity supply. (a) out of offi ce hours; and With respect to energy efficiency, Government has (b) in offi ce hours, delivered a wide range of initiatives, helping consumers, and what provision there is if there are two prisoners businesses and Government itself to reduce consumption and needing advice or an advocate is confl icted; so save money while aiding our environment. (2) why the recommended rate was not implemented In 2005, Tynwald adopted a target to reduce Governments by the Legal Aid Commission; if the recommended rate CO2 emissions by 20 per cent by 2010 from its buildings had been introduced at the time it actually had made the and vehicles. I can advise that Government emissions in recommendation and then index linked – 2007-08 have been reduced by 6,000 tonnes, which is over (a) what it would be now; and half way towards this target and at a saving of greater than (b) what it is now;

Climate change – Policies and strategies Legal representation – Increasing hourly rates and hours for Legal Aid Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1151 T126

(3) what the implications are for Human Rights and shall be brought promptly before a court, which would be admissibilitymissibility ofof evidenceevidence inin criminalcriminal trialstrials inin casescases wherewhere after being charged. there is a signifi cant delay in providing an advocate for Section 44 of the Police Powers and Procedures Act 1998 a person in custody; and places limits on the period for which a person can be detained (4) whether the Legal Aid Committee refused at a recent in police custody until being charged, which is usually 24 meeting to agree proposals from the Isle of Man Law hours. However, sections 45 to 47 provide that the period Society to increase hourly rates and hours of coverage of detention can be extended to a maximum of 48 hours on to 24/7 – 365 days on the basis of a substantial survey the authorisation of an inspector (authorised for that purpose which indicated that at the increased rates there would by the Chief Constable) or of a chief inspector or offi cer of be suffi cient funds for advocates on call 24/7 and a back- higher rank, and then further extended to a maximum of 96 up available for serious or confl ict cases; and whether hours by the High Bailiff. this meant that the proposals never even reached the In the case of an extension by the High Bailiff, which is by Treasury? the issuing of a warrant of further detention, the High Bailiff requires to be satisfi ed that there are reasonable grounds for Answer: In answer to the Hon. Member’s Question: believing that the further detention of the person to whom (1) Under section 61(1) of the Police Powers and the application relates is justifi ed [section 46(1)]. Procedure Act 1998: Sections 44 to 47 mirror the equivalent provisions in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which Human Rights ‘a person held in Custody in a police station or other premises shall be entitled, if he so requests, to consult an advocate privately at any commentators consider do comply with the requirements of time’. Article 5(3). If the delay in fi nding representation for a person in The present Duty Advocate Scheme (all weekend and police custody means that the police enquiries, in particular 7 p.m. – 7 a.m. during weekdays) has been in existence for the interview of the suspect, cannot be concluded within a number of years, fulfi lling the obligation under Section the initial 24 hour period then, provided the relevant offi cer 61(1) and also providing a service, during those times, to believed on reasonable grounds that the circumstances set those persons interviewed as voluntary attendees at a police out in section 45(1)(a) to (c) existed, further detention to station. enable the enquiries to be concluded would not breach the A list of Duty Advocates is drawn up, some months in detained person’s rights under Article 5. Of course, if the advance, by the Law Society, with details provided to police offi cer concerned (or ultimately the High Bailiff) considered custody. that there were no grounds for an extension of the detention If for any reason the Duty Advocate is busy with another period, then this could possibly result in detriment to the detainee, or there is a confl ict, I understand that custody staff police investigation, albeit the likely outcome would be that will ring round the other members on the Duty Advocate List the suspect would be released on police bail to return at a and see if any of them are available. If there is not another later date. advocate available, detainees do have to effectively ‘wait As regards issues relating to admissibility of evidence, their turn’. No statistics are available regarding such wait the court does have the discretion to refuse to allow the times. admission of evidence if it appears to it that, having regard I understand that, generally, out of offi ce hours, the Duty to all the circumstances, including the circumstances in Advocate Scheme operates effi ciently. During offi ce hours, which the evidence was obtained, the admission of the particularly on court days, there may be problems obtaining evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness an advocate, but these problems have eased considerably of the proceedings that the court ought not to admit it – see during the past 12 months, with more advocates than ever section 13 Criminal Justice Act 1991. It is diffi cult to envisage being available. circumstances, however, in which a delay of a few hours in a (2) The rate proposed in the Legal Aid Commission suspect receiving legal advice in custody could result, on its Report, published in 2003, was £150 per hour for a senior own, in the court ruling out evidence collected by the police and £125 per hour for a junior in respect of Legal Aid work. during the course of the criminal investigation. Rates in payment in 2003 were £94.00 – £67.50 per hour. If a suspect decided to be interviewed without having Council of Ministers considered the various aspects of had the benefi t of legal advice and made a confession during the Report, including those that would increase access to that interview then the court would have to take account the Legal Aid system, and decided that the rates in payment of whether there could be said to be any oppression of the to advocates would be phased in over three years from suspect (i.e. use or threat of torture or other violence) or 2008 to 2009, so that they would be paid at the Legal Aid whether it was made in consequence of anything said or done Commission’s recommended rate from April 2010. which was likely, in the circumstances existing at the time, Based on the June 2009 infl ation rate, the May 2003 to render unreliable any confession which might have been reports fi gures would now be around £185 per hour senior made by him in consequence thereof and could order that the and £155 per hour junior. The current rates in payment are confession be excluded from the evidence to be given during £135 – £115 per hour. the criminal proceedings – see section 11 of the CJA 1991. (3) Where a person in custody experiences a signifi cant An example of a circumstance in which a confession would delay in relation to the services of an advocate a number of be likely to be excluded would be a police offi cer telling the protections are in place. suspect that the quicker he tells the police what he did, the Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights sooner he will be able to go home. Police offi cers do take enables the lawful detention of a person by the police for great care when interviewing unrepresented suspects and the purpose of bringing him before the court on reasonable would be careful to remind them of their rights. Accordingly, suspicion of having committed an offence [para 1(c)]. the fact that a suspect got tired of waiting for his advocate Paragraph 3 requires that a person detained for this purpose to arrive and agreed to be interviewed without the benefi t of

Legal representation – Increasing hourly rates and hours for Legal Aid 1152 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers legal advice would be unlikely, on its own, to result in any by the statutory payment checks undertaken by the Capital confession being excluded. Projects Unit. (4) In December 2008 the Legal Aid Committee (c) Treasury does not award contracts on behalf of considered the issue of the introduction of a weekday daytime Government. It is the responsibility of the sponsoring police station rota, together with the remuneration if such a Department or Statutory Board to conﬁ rm the appointment rota was introduced. and execute the contract. Treasury will advise Departments It was noted that there was sufficient interest from and Statutory Boards about the standing of companies in advocates to create a weekday daytime rota. It was suggested regards to statutory payments. to the Committee by the Law Society that if a daytime (d) The Department or Statutory Board approves the rota was to be created, advocates should receive a ﬂ at rate contractor on the basis of information received from Treasury payment of £200 whilst being on call. The suggestion was and it is unlikely that a Department or Statutory Board would based on the fact that whilst on call advocates would not be proceed if advised that requirements had not been met. able to see clients and would generally be limited in terms As indicated previously, the contractor in this instance of what work they would be able to undertake. had an agreed repayment plan in place with the relevant The Legal Aid Committee has requested the President of authorities prior to their formal engagement. the IOM Law Society to provide more information so that they can give further consideration to this matter to enable the proposal to be progressed. Income tax assessments Number outstanding at 30th April; 2008-09 tax returns

Tynwald Auditor General Bill 53. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Issue for consultation Minister for the Treasury:

51. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mrs Christian) to ask (1) How many of the 5,415 outstanding income tax the Chief Minister: assessments requiring to be assessed as at 26th March 2009 were outstanding at the close of business on 30th When the Tynwald Auditor General Bill will be issued April 2009; and for consultation? (2) how many tax returns for the year 2008-09 have to date been – Answer: I can conﬁ rm that the Tynwald Auditor General (a) issued; Bill has been drafted and a consultation document is being (b) received; prepared by the Chief Secretary’s Ofﬁ ce. It is intended to (c) assessed; publish the consultation document and the draft Bill before (d) are due refunds; and 31st August 2009. (e) have received refunds?

Answer: (1) Of the 5,415 returns for the year ended 5th April 2008 submitted to the Income Tax Division on time (i.e. TREASURY by 6th October 2008) and which had not been assessed by 26th March 2009, 4,078 were assessed between 26th March Capital works for Government and 1st May 2009; and 1,337 were still to be assessed. Contract award to company with outstanding debt A number of tax returns in any year are subject to enquiry for a variety of reasons; such as the death of the taxpayer, 52. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the marriage or separation, the person leaving the Island or when Minister for the Treasury: the Income Tax Division asks for additional information. Resolving such enquiries takes some time, although the Further to his Answer to Written Question 1 at the 23rd Income Tax Division strives to keep this time to a minimum. June sitting of the House of Keys – In these cases, the assessment will be issued once the enquiry (a) whether the contractor signed the Appendix D, part has been concluded. 4 form (page 59 of Capital Procedure Notes – 2006 As at 1st May 2009 1,080 cases were subject to enquiry, edition); and 257 had not been reviewed. Since that date, all of the (b) whether Treasury was aware of the issue before 257 cases mentioned have either been assessed or are subject awarding the contract; to enquiry. (c) whether the Treasury has the power to award a (2) Assuming that the Question relates to resident contract even though the requirements of being up to date individual taxpayers: with National Insurance, Company Tax, VAT and Income (a) 54,395 returns for 2008-09 were issued; Tax payments is not met; and, if so, where this power is (b) as at 1st July, 15,210 of those have been received; derived from; and (c) as at 1st July, 3,051 assessments have been issued, (d) who approved the use of this contractor and did they and 1,182 reviewed returns where an assessment has been have knowledge that the requirements were not met? calculated are awaiting internal control checks (primarily that employers’ income tax instalment payments reconcile Answer: (a) Yes, the contractor had signed the Appendix with employees’ tax returns); D, part 4 of the Capital Procedure Notes. (d) it is not possible to determine how many 2008-09 tax (b) Yes, Treasury was aware of the contractor’s returns will result in refunds; and outstanding debts to Government. These had been identiﬁ ed (e) as at 1st July 2009, 1,006 of the 3,051 assessments

Legal representation – Increasing hourly rates and hours for Legal Aid Tynwald Auditor General Bill – Issue for consultation Capital works for Government – Contract award to company with outstanding debt Income tax assessments – Number outstanding at 30th April; 2008-09 tax returns Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1153 T126 issued were due refunds and all of these refunds have been that it would adopt the EUSD retention tax option in the same paid. way as Switzerland. Based on the continued gathering of information by the Treasury, the consultation exercise with the banks and the public statements of other countries, the Council of Ministers European Savings Directive withholding tax determined that it would be in the Isle of Man’s best interests to Treasury consultation and implementation implement the EUSD transitional arrangements, which would mean that EU-resident customers of our banks would have 54. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask the the option either to have their interest payment information Minister for the Treasury: shared with their country of residence or, alternatively, to suffer a retention tax on those interest payments. If he will outline all the consultation and implementation A report was then drawn up, entitled ‘Taxation Strategy processes which Treasury was involved in prior to – Exchange of Information’, and presented to Tynwald reaching policy implementing the withholding tax option in October 2003, where the following resolution was when the European Savings Directive was introduced? approved:

‘That Tynwald endorses the recommended response to the EU Savings Answer: The European Union Directive 2003/48/EC Directive within the context of the Island’s overall strategy on exchange on the taxation of savings income in the form of interest of information and taxation, as set out in the document entitled ‘Taxation payments (which is commonly referred to as the EUSD), Strategy – Exchange of Information.’ was adopted formally by the EU member states in June 2003; although it had been under negotiation for some years The EUSD came into effect on 1st July 2005. The beforehand. retention tax rate on interest payments commenced at 15 Throughout the period during which the EUSD was per cent and rose to 20 per cent on 1st July 2008. On 1st being negotiated, Treasury offi cers monitored all aspects July 2011 the retention tax rate is scheduled to rise again to of the debate and advised both Treasury and the Council of 35 per cent. Ministers of any developments having an impact on the Isle of Man. This monitoring needed to cover not only the EU, but also the positions taken by those countries outside the EU which had agreed to implement the EUSD. European Savings Directive Although 12 of the then 15 EU member states committed Withholding tax; exchange of information; UK to apply the principles of the EUSD via automatic exchange preference for Isle of Man of interest payment information with each other, in December 2001 three members states (Austria, Belgium 55. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the and Luxembourg) committed during a transitional period to Minister for the Treasury: levy a withholding tax on interest payments which would be paid to the other member states, rather than to exchange (1) Whether the Minister accepts that there are legitimate information with them. business cases in areas of high taxation for which In November 2002 it was announced that Switzerland 35 per cent withholding tax would be both legal and would apply the EUSD, but on the same basis as that legitimate; proposed by Austria, Belgium and Luxembourg, in that (2) when the Minister received his invitation to address Switzerland would introduce what it termed a retention tax. the OECD and whether his appearance there was subject The retention tax would commence at a rate of 15 per cent to agreeing to exchange of information from 2011; and for three years, and then rise to 20 per cent for three more (3) whether the UK Government has expressed a years before again rising to 35 per cent until the EUSD preference to the Government as to which option it would transitional period ended. In a compromise brokered by the prefer the Isle of Man Government to take regarding the EU Presidency, it was agreed that the fi nal EUSD transitional European Savings Directive by 1st July 2009? arrangements would be modelled on the wishes of Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland, and that they would Answer: (1) Firstly, it is correct to say that the 35 per end when Switzerland agreed with the EU to exchange tax cent rate of retention tax which a number of countries are information according to the OECD model standard. At that scheduled to apply from 1st July 2011 under the transitional point, Austria, Belgium and Luxembourg would be obliged provisions of the European Union Directive 2003/48/EC to move to automatic exchange of information only. on the taxation of savings income in the form of interest Early in 2003 the Council of Ministers agreed with a payments (which is commonly referred to as the EUSD) Treasury recommendation that the views of the banks in is legal. Across the EU, rates of personal income vary the Isle of Man should be sought before any Government considerably, with the top rates in Denmark, the Netherlands policy decisions were made with respect to the EUSD and Sweden exceeding 50 per cent, whilst those in many of implementation route that the Island should follow. At that the more recent accession countries are below 35 per cent. time it was clear that banking was the only signifi cant part EU-resident individual investors with accounts in the Isle of our fi nancial services sector which would be affected by of Man should be declaring their bank deposit interest on the EUSD. A confi dential consultation exercise was therefore their tax returns. Failure to do that would be tax evasion; and commenced, led by the Assessor for Treasury and managed that is a crime in most countries. It is a feature of the EUSD by the then Association of Licensed Banks for the banking that credit will be given in an investor’s home country for sector. any retention tax paid on savings income earned in countries During that consultation exercise, Guernsey announced such as the Isle of Man.

Income tax assessments – Number outstanding at 30th April; 2008-09 tax returns European Savings Directive withholding tax – Treasury consultation and implementation European Savings Directive – Withholding tax; exchange of information; UK preference for Isle of Man 1154 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

It is not for me or the Isle of Man Government to comment Further to his Written Answer to my Question 32 at the on the legitimacy of a person’s fi nancial planning. I think it January sitting of Tynwald, will he make a statement is fair to say, however, that those countries which have been clarifying his comment that the strongest proponents of the retention tax transitional arrangements of the EUSD are those which have some form ‘The health professional, however, may take the patient’s wishes as of banking secrecy laws. We do not have banking secrecy in expressed in the advance directive into account when deciding the the Isle of Man, and the Government, after due consultation, course of action’ has determined that it does not serve our interests as a country to continue with part of the EUSD that has such (my italics)? associations. (2) I received an invitation to speak on 24th June 2009 at Answer: In order to answer this Question, it is necessary the OECD Forum, ‘The Crisis and Beyond: for a stronger, for me fi rst to set out the full paragraph containing the cleaner, fairer economy’ in a letter from Secretary-General comment which I have been asked to clarify. That paragraph Gurría dated 14th May 2009. Neither the Secretary- was as follows: General, the OECD secretariat, nor for that matter any other person or body linked my attendance to the Government’s ‘An advance directive contains the patient’s instructions as to which EUSD-related policies. The invitation was in recognition medical treatment that person would or would not be prepared to accept of the leading role that the Isle of Man has played in the if he or she should subsequently lose the capacity to decide for himself or international tax co-operation arena, and I expect that I and herself. Although an advance directive can request specifi c treatments, it other Ministers will receive more invitations of this kind in does not bind health professionals to provide that treatment if it confl icts with their professional judgment about the most appropriate treatment to the future. be given to a patient, just as they would not be bound to give a treatment (3) The UK Government did not express a preference to requested by a patient who retained capacity. The health professional, the Government as to which option it would prefer the Isle however, may take the patient’s wishes as expressed in the advance of Man Government to take regarding the European Savings directive into account when deciding the course of action.’ Directive by 1st July 2009. It is presumed that the clarifi cation sought relates to the meaning of the word ‘may’ in the fi nal sentence. In this context, it is to be construed in the usual way, namely as High infl ation on Island’s reserves permissive and empowering. Thus, the health professional is Actions to offset impact able to take the patient’s wishes into account when deciding the course of action. As stated in my Written Answer, 56. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the however, a health professional cannot be obliged to follow Minister for the Treasury: the patient’s wishes, as he or she must be free to exercise his or her professional judgment as regards the most appropriate What actions are being taken to offset the impact of treatment to be given to the patient. medium- and long-term high infl ation on the Island’s reserves?

Answer: The performance benchmarks for the Government’s main externally managed reserve funds are EDUCATION currently based on the Bank of England Base Rate plus 2.5 per cent. These benchmarks are intended to deliver a real Suspensions from secondary schools return (i.e. after infl ation) over the medium and long term. Number since September 2008 The use of equities and index linked bonds within Government’s reserves by the external investment managers 58. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Malarkey) to are designed to achieve the performanceormance benchmarks set and ask the Minister for Education: offset the impact of long-term infl ation and generate real growth over the long term. Since the start of the school year in September 2008 to There are well respected studies such as the Barclays date, how many children have been suspended by each Equity Gilt Study 2009 which support the view that, over of the Island’s secondary schools for – the long term, equities generally outperform monetary assets (a) less than 10 days; and and infl ation. In the event of a period of high infl ation, the (b) more than 10 days? appropriateness of the margin over the Bank of England Base Rate and the performance benchmarks generally would be reviewed. Answer: Since 9th September 2008 up to June 2009 there have been 279 children suspended for less than 10 days from the Island’s secondary schools. During the same period eight children have been HM ATTORNEY GENERAL suspended for over 10 days. Suspension over 10 days has to be with the approval of the governors. Terminally ill patients There is a requirement that schools maintain full-time Clarifi cation on advance directives education provision for pupils suspended for longer than 10 days. Long term suspension must be reviewed by the 57. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to ask HM governors before the end of 30 days from the fi rst day of Attorney General: suspension.

European Savings Directive – Withholding tax; exchange of information; UK preference for Isle of Man High inﬂ ation on Island’s reserves – Actions to offset impact Terminally ill patients – Clariﬁ cation on advance directives Suspensions from secondary schools – Number since September 2008 Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1155 T126

Rushen Primary School on the press database (currently 1,400 press contacts). The Potential low-cost activity hall for Rushen equivalent advertising value of this coverage is estimated to be £75, 000. 59. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the The cost to the Department of the TT Press Conference Minister for Education: held in April was £8,522.36 and, overall, the event was a great success and the Department believes that the cost of Whether Rushen Primary School is willing and able the event was extremely good value for money. to offer a site and a potential element of a community (b) This cost was made up mainly of travel and partnership for a low-cost activity hall for Rushen? accommodation for competitors and media personnel, along with promotional consumables and print. Answer: The Department has discussed this matter with (c) The individuals who travelled and the associated travel its partners from DTL, Sports Council, NSC and DHSS on the and accommodation costs are as follows: Sporting and Health Schools Committee for well over a year and has indicated its general support for such an initiative. Stephen Davison Media £210.80 Since it is the Department who is the owner and ‘landlord’ Malcolm Wheeler Media £200.40 for all its properties and estates, it is the Department who Graham Fordham Media £184.75 is willing to make a site available, subject to suitability, at Tony Hoare Media £311.10 Rushen Primary School. Fiona Cole Media £215.08 Geoffrey McElvogue Media £189.40 Kyle Whyte Media £162.80 Dave Fern Media £290.90 TOURISM AND LEISURE Dave Dew Media £371.90 James Whitham Media £243.80 TT winter press conference, Villa Marina John Brown Media £258.40 Total cost; payments to bring guests Matt Hull Media £197.90 John Hogan Media £197.90 60. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to Darren Maisey Team £184.75 ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Stuart Garner Team £200.40 John McGuinness Competitor £184.75 In respect of the TT winter press conference at the Villa James Hillier Competitor £184.75 Marina – Patrick Farrance Competitor £182.90 (a) what the total cost was of the conference; Michael Rutter Competitor £215.08 (b) whether payments were made in respect of guests Michael Dunlop Competitor £162.80 attending from outside the Island; Adrian Archibald Competitor £162.80 (c) if so, how much was paid in respect of each individual; Cameron Donald Competitor £162.80 and Tim Reeves Competitor £112.80 (d) how many of those brought to the Island competed Ian Lougher Competitor £242.90 in the TT races? Guy Martin Competitor £192.90 Ian Hutchinson Competitor £253.80 Answer: (a) The purpose of the event was the TT 2009 Mark Cox Competitor £185.68 launch at the Villa Marina and Grandstand to generate Bruce Anstey Competitor £206.70 positive preview coverage ahead of the 2009 TT Races, Keith Amor Competitor £306.92 promote the Isle of Man and the contribution of the Isle of Steve Plater Competitor £200.40 Man Government, highlight the new television company Ben Birchall Competitor £200.40 involvement and give TT riders, teams, sponsors and event Tom Birchall Competitor £150.40 sponsors an opportunity to promote their involvement. Gary Johnson Competitor £100.40 The evening event in the Villa Marina was attended by a large number of TT fans from both on and off-Island. Their (d) All 18 competitors brought to the media event in April enjoyment was shared by listeners of Manx Radio, who contested the 2009 TT Races. provided full coverage. The bike titles in attendance all gave a minimum of two pages of preview coverage, including rider proﬁ les, Isle of Man test rides, TT 2009 guides and featuring launch TT 2009 photography. Payments to competitors Representatives from the following media outlets attended the press launch – Bike, Ride, MCN, TWO (Two 61. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to Wheels Only), Fast Bikes, Performance Bike, Superbike, ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Telegraph/Express/Star, Mirror, Irish Bike, Irish Racer, Road Racing Ireland, IOM Newspapers, Manx Radio, TT Website, What the total expenditure was in respect of start iomtt.com, Motorcycle Racer, Motorcycle Sport and Leisure payments for TT competitors and what sums were paid and Bike Sport News. to individual riders? The preview coverage reached an audience of over 1,500,000, based on the circulations of the invited press. In Answer: The total expenditure in respect of start addition, the pictures were distributed to all press registered payments for TT competitors in 2009 will be £514,150. This

Rushen Primary School – Potential low-cost activity hall for Rushen TT winter press conference, Villa Marina – Total cost; payments to bring guests TT 2009 – Payments to competitors 1156 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Written Answers

fi gure includes the standard travelling allowance payments (1) What the additional cost was in respect of the made to competitors, as per the event supplementary accoutrements provided to each marshal station for the regulations. TTXGP; and The sums paid to individual riders cannot be disclosed (2) what the cost was of the bike and rider collection due to the confi dentiality clauses in the respective contracts service in respect of the TT practices and races for 2008 held with the Department. This information would be covered and 2009? by exemption were any request made under the code of practice on access to Government information, on the basis Answer: (1) The Department had an approved budget that payments to individuals are covered by the personal to cover the cost of staging the TTXGP event and the cost privacy exemption and that those to teams are covered by of additional marshalling accoutrements were met from this the commercial confi dentiality exemption. budget. However, the items provided did result in a cost being incurred that would not have been incurred, were it not for the inclusion of TTXGP in the TT race programme. The breakdown of that cost is as follows: Port St Mary Railway Station Leasing and redevelopment Protective safety gloves (Class 0-360mm, 1000 volts @ £12.47 per pair x 1,000) 62. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the = £12,470 Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Bottled water What progress has been made towards the leasing and (167 cases at £1.80 per case = 1002 bottles) = £300.60 redevelopment of Port St Mary Railway Station? (2) In 2008 recovery of machines was arranged on behalf Answer: In line with IOM Government policy, the of the Department at a cost of £6,785. Arrangements made Department of Tourism and Leisure has previously advertised this year on behalf of the Department incurred a cost that for expressions of interest from parties interested in has not been fi nalised but is likely to total £6,900. To this redeveloping Port St Mary Railway Station, both from within should be added £570 incurred for the provision of additional Government and externally. One of the conditions of any recovery arrangements for the TTXGP event, giving an future lease, agreement or sale is that part of the property has estimated total fi gure for TT 2009 of £7,470. to be retained for railway purposes and the site only extends to the railway station building and not the platform, goods shed or other land. After submitting the necessary documentation to the Treasury, in November 2006 approval in principle was TRANSPORT granted to the Department to dispose of the property and subsequently lease-back the portion that is to be used RESA contract for railway purposes. During the intervening period, my Budget for silt from River Mersey Department has continued to work with our selected developer, Street Heritage Construction Limited and the 64. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Attorney General’s Offi ce and negotiations to fi nalise the Minister for Transport: legal arrangements and design aspects are now nearing completion. The Department’s intention is to seek fi nal (1) What financial provision is built into the RESA approval to dispose of the property from the Treasury and, contract for the dredging, delivery and unloading of silt if granted, it is possible that construction work will begin on from the River Mersey; and redeveloping Port St Mary Station later this year. (2) what this works out at per tonne? The proposals are still subject to contract but, in brief, I can confi rm that they allow for the building to be Answer: In answer to the Hon. Member’s Question, may sympathetically restored, similar to how it would have I fi rstly correct him regarding the type of material that will originally looked, retaining and, in some cases, reintroducing, be used for infi ll within the promontory works of the Airport many of the original features, incorporating a station master’s Runway Project. The material being used for infi ll of the offi ce, passenger waiting room and toilet facilities (including promontory are not silts but sands and gravels dredged from a new disabled toilet facility). The remaining part of the the mouth of the estuary. The method of dredging ensures railway station building is to be converted into three separate that silts are dispersed as the material is removed. There apartments, managed overall by a property management are specifi cation limits on the size and volume of material, company. which will be used to test delivered materials, and ensure compliance. In respect of the fi nancial provision, the contract has a total value for supply and delivery of material of £3,907,609. TT 2008 and 2009 costs This sum includes Crown Commissioner’s royalties and a TTXGP marshals; bike and rider collection service provision for Liverpool ports fees and charges (should it be applicable). 63. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to The cost of the material equates approximately to £4.80/ ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: tonne.

TT 2009 – Payments to competitors Port St Mary Railway Station – Leasing and redevelopment TT 2008 and 2009 costs – TTXGP marshals; bike and rider collection service RESA contract – Budget for silt from River Mersey Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1157 T126

IRIS in south of Island (c) In Peel in 2007 during a maintenance period when Cost of electricity to run the fl ap gate was being operated manually there was an unscheduled raising of the gate. This resulted in damage to 65. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the a fi shing vessel that was passing through into the inner Minister for Transport: harbour. Repair to fi shing vessel Silver Viking 62,662 What the cost is per month for the electricity to run the IRIS Scheme for Port Erin, Port St Mary, Castletown (d) 2008 and Ballasalla? Dredging cost in Peel in respect of the construction of the boat park and marina 229,265 Answer: I can confi rm that the average monthly cost for electricity to run the IRIS Scheme for Port Erin, Port St Mary, 2009 Castletown and Ballasalla for the year 2008-09 is £22,568. Additional construction phase dredging to remove spilled This fi gure also includes the cost of pumping sewage from infi ll material from boat park 3,500 Colby, Ballabeg and Derbyhaven catchments. As outlined in IRIS presentations to Hon. Members, it is No maintenance dredging has yet been undertaken so it the Department’s intention to undertake an energy study to is not possible to identify the actual dredging requirement. determine whether there are potential savings to be made in However, it is estimated that minor maintenance dredging energy consumption as the IRIS regional sewage treatment will be required on an annual basis. strategy is implemented. Already the Department has Estimated annual cost of maintenance dredging 20,000 specifi ed the use of variable speed drives on the pumps to reduce the starting currents and overall energy consumption. (e) Construction of the debris screen 68,987 The Department is working closely with the Energy Initiatives Offi cer at the Department of Local Government and the The debris screen has not been removed from the Environment to explore further initiatives and possibly River Neb. The steel spines that were fi tted to the main alternative and more sustainable sources of energy. framework were removed in order to remove the risk of signifi cant fl ooding whilst a review of the debris screen was undertaken. Removal of the debris screen spines 4,455 Flap gates in Peel and Douglas Cost of various incidents and dredging (f) In August 2007 the debris screen choked during a high rainfall event and caused the river to overtop the bank in front 66. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the of the Close Chiarn houses adjacent to the old power station Minister for Transport: site. The extent of the fl ooding was confi ned to the river path. At that time the Department’s staff and machinery were on What the cost has been for the following accidents and site and the debris screen was cleared and kept clear so that failed projects – the river level fell. It then remained within its banks for the (a) lowering the fl ap gate in Peel; duration of the event. (b) the collapse of the fl ap gate in Douglas; (g) No external consultants were involved in deciding (c) the repair to the vessel which hit the gate at Peel; the height of the fl ap gate, as all of the decisions were taken (d) the dredging cost in Peel this year; and how often this by the Department’s offi cers within the project team. The dredging will need to be carried out and at what cost; minimum height of the gate was determined by the retained (e) the building and removal of the screen at Peel to water level which, in turn, is a balance between retaining catch debris; and suffi cient water to keep vessels afl oat and optimising access (f) how close this accident in Peel came to causing serious in and out of the inner harbour. As part of the design process, fl ooding in the power station area; a risk assessment was undertaken and this highlighted the (g) what explanation the consultants have given about possibility of small boats being carried over the gate by the failing to assess the need to have a lower fl ap gate; and river fl ow. A decision was therefore taken to increase the (h) to what extent the consultants are liable or minimum height of the gate to provide a lip that would act as accountable? a safety fence by protruding above retained water level. Once the flap gate and inner harbour were brought Answer: Mr President, the Department refutes the into operation and actual weather and river conditions allegation that these projects have failed. In particular, the were experienced, it became apparent that the additional development of marinas in Peel and Douglas inner harbours safety element that had been added to the gate was causing have been a catalyst for regeneration in adjacent areas of operational diffi culties in periods where neap tides coincided the towns. with high river fl ows. The original risk assessment was revised In relation to the Questions posed – in the light of operational experience and the decision was £ taken to remove the additional safety element from the top of (a) The cost of reducing the excess height of the fl ap gate the gate and replace it with a safety wire. By undertaking this in Peel 93,351 remedial work the harbour remained safe, should boats get in diffi culty near the gate. However, by reducing the height (b) The costs associated with theunscheduled lowering of the gate to the minimum, i.e. retained water level, more of the fl ap gate in Douglas – water can overfl ow from the harbour at times of high river 2001 40,235 fl ow. This enables the gate to operate more effectively and 2006 36,349 so benefi ts boats using the inner harbour.

IRIS in south of Island – Cost of electricity to run Flap gates in Peel and Douglas – Cost of various incidents and dredging 1158 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

(h) As has been explained at paragraph (g) above, no are not notifi ed to the schemes’ administrators accurately or external consultants were involved in the design of the height on time, or the operating calculation is not wholly accurate of the gate or its subsequent reduction. or applied properly, then the annual uprating amount could be overpaid or, in some more limited circumstances, The Court adjourned at 1.04 p.m. underpaid. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. The Pensions Division of the Personnel Offi ce, as the current administrator of public service pension schemes, became aware of a possible issue in relation to the calculation of GMP and its application in respect of public service pensions in the Island, following the publication by the Orders of the Day United Kingdom Cabinet Offi ce of a pension circular dated 16th December 2008. It was receipt of this circular which led to the investigation to which I have already referred. Guaranteed Minimum Pensions The investigation report, a copy of which will be Statement by the Chairman of the circulated to Hon. Members later today, indicates that a Civil Service Commission total of 4,489 pensioner records have been reviewed. Of the records reviewed, it has been identifi ed that 280 have not The President: Hon. Members, as I indicated before we had the GMP applied correctly when the state retirement broke up for our lunch break, we are taking the Statements pension has been claimed. These 280 records comprise 229 out of order, so we turn to Item 7, Statement by the Chairman overpayments and 51 underpayments. Overpayments have of the Civil Service Commission. been identifi ed over a 24-year period. At 30th June 2009 they actually total £272,098.46, the lowest overpayment identifi ed The Chairman of the Civil Service Commission (Mr being one penny per month and the highest being £126.67 Houghton): Thank you, Mr President, and I thank you for per month. Underpayments have been identifi ed over a 16- your indulgence, sir. year period to 30th June 2009. These underpayments total Mr President, thank you for permitting me to make a £1,751.56, the smallest underpayments identifi ed being one Statement in relation to the payment of public sector pensions penny per month and the largest being £5.51 per month. in the Island and specifi cally the calculation and application In addition to the 280 records where underpayments of the guaranteed minimum pension, or GMP, element of or overpayments have been identifi ed, there remain some such pensions. 26 pensioner records which have not as yet been fully Members will recall that this matter was fi rst brought to reviewed, as further information in relation to the United the attention of this Hon. Court by the Member for Rushen, Kingdom National Insurance contributions is still awaited Mr Watterson, who tabled a Question in relation to GMP from HM Customs and Revenue. In view of the errors which at the April sitting this year. In response to his Question, I have occurred, I must apologise to all those public service indicated that the Pensions Division of the Personnel Offi ce pensioners whose pensions have been incorrectly calculated had initiated an investigation into the matter and that a full and I apologise to this Hon. Court. While I accept that the report was to be made to the Civil Service Commission, as calculation of public service pensions can be multifaceted and schemes-maker and manager of the majority of public service thus complex, the errors which have been identifi ed should pension schemes. not have occurred. I am assured that the necessary procedural I can now inform Hon. Members that this report has been changes, which had been implemented with effect from 1st received and has been considered by the Commission. My January 2009, will prevent a recurrence of these errors. purpose today, therefore, is to inform you of its fi ndings and With regard to the rectification of those pensions the actions which are to be taken to rectify those pensions payments which are incorrect, I can inform Hon. Members errors which have been identifi ed. I speak not only on behalf that there has been a process of consultation involving the of the Commission as schemes-maker and manager for the Chief Minister, the Treasury, the Department of Education, majority of schemes, but also on behalf of the Department of the Department of Home Affairs and the Commission. As a Education as manager of the teachers’ pension scheme, and result of this, an approach has been agreed by the relevant the Department of Home Affairs as manager of the Police scheme managers. pension scheme. In line with this approach, fi rstly, underpayments will As Hon. Members are aware, the issue in relation to be rectifi ed. This will be done during August 2009 and will GMP dates back as far as 1978, when public service pension include increasing the monthly pension payment to the correct schemes in the United Kingdom fi rst contracted out of the amount and making good any previous underpayments. State Earnings Related Pension Scheme, known as SERPS. Following on from this, identifi ed overpayments will be As a condition for contracting out, pension scheme members corrected. This is scheduled to be done during November had to be provided with a guaranteed minimum amount of 2009. This will allow for a period of notice to be given scheme pension, known as GMP. This applied to members to each individual whose public service pension has been who were in a contracted-out pension scheme between 1978 overpaid before the necessary correction to the monthly and 1997 and who would otherwise have been entitled to pension payment is implemented. It has also been agreed SERPS. Hon. Members will also be aware that our public that overpayments already made will not be reclaimed by service pensions are uprated each April in line with the United Government. Kingdom retail price index. The pension scheme pays for all This overall approach has been decided upon, as it of the operating in the years before state retirement pension is considered to balance both the position of individual is claimed but, thereafter, part of the uprating is paid through recipients with that of the taxpayer as the principal funder the state pension, depending upon GMP entitlement. If GMPs of public service pensions. To do otherwise would be

Flap gates in Peel and Douglas – Cost of various incidents and dredging Guaranteed Minimum Pensions – Statement by the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1159 T126 wholly unfair to those involved. This approach in respect Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. of overpayments accords, I am informed, broadly with The Hon. Member stated in his speech that overpayments that currently being implemented for the United Kingdom have been identifi ed over a 24-year period to 30th June. Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme. Let me assure Hon. They total £272,000, the highest being £126.67 per month. Members that all the recipients of a public service pension The question is… It has been agreed that overpayments where corrections are to be implemented, either in relation to already made will not be reclaimed by Government. Can I an underpayment or an overpayment, will receive individual ask who made this decision? Surely, is this not a decision that letters from the pensions administrator informing them of the should be made by this Court? At the end of the day, who changes to be made. This will be done by the end of July is responsible for the administration of taxpayers’ money 2009, thereby ensuring that any individual whose pension is in this area? to be reduced as a consequence of an identifi ed overpayment will receive at least three months’ notice of the impending The President: Mr Houghton. change. Assurance will also be given to those who have received overpayments that Government will not seek to Mr Houghton: Mr President, careful consultation was recoup overpayments already made. made in principle with the actual non-recouping of the moneys that have been overpaid with the Treasury, done The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. in full consultation with the Treasury and, of course, the appropriate concurrence has been given on that particular Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. area. I hope that assists the Hon. Member. Just on the statement there regarding the assurances that were given from the Chairman of the Civil Service at the The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. bottom of page 2, ‘I am assured that necessary procedures are in being.’ I just wonder: will there be a check on that on, Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the… with this latest say a six-month basis, to make sure that the mechanism that revelation from the Civil Service Commission and the is there is actually working? catalogue of other failures, as far as issues, does he not feel that we should have some explanation of who actually is The President: Hon…. responsible? We are paying top-dollar prices for these people in these positions of power at the top of this profession. Who Mr Houghton: I can assure the Hon. Member, Mr is responsible? Why have they not been held to account, as President, that the systems are much more modifi ed than far as that is concerned? And why are we going to end up they were in the past and that special checking procedures with yet again being told that it is the tooth fairy, who is are now in place for the regular monitoring of the appropriate responsible for this? When will accountability actually come information that is also required to be provided to the into the systems and we will start seeing, in order to stop Personnel Offi ce by the Department of Health and Social this deluge of problems we have got with the Civil Service Security. Commission?

The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. The President: Mr Houghton.

Mr Lowey: While welcoming the Chairman’s Statement Mr Houghton: Mr President, the Hon. Member and many today, can I have an assurance that the people who created the Members of this Hon. Court will realise that the pensions problem in the fi rst place… Is there an audit trail of why we issue going back over 25 years for the period – this is actually got ourselves into the position that we have had to extradite being reviewed. For all of that period the pensions have ourselves from? changed between three entities of Government and come back to the Personnel Offi ce, and I do know that, many years The President: Mr Houghton. ago, there was a great lack of resources in this particular area, when, of course, this administration was being undertaken Mr Houghton: Mr President, I can give the Hon. Member in Government Offi ces under the auspices of the Treasury. the assurance going forward, of course, that this will not That has now been rectifi ed but, as far as fi nding out who happen again. I have made absolutely certain of that and am was responsible and what the reasons were, a review has quite willing to put that on record. been initiated into that area, sir. As far as matters appertaining to the past, it was simply because of the issue and the complexities that were to do The President: Mr Malarkey. with contracting out pensions that the whole Scheme in the United Kingdom was dropped, for that very reason. There Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. was a complicated error and, indeed, in the United Kingdom Could the Hon. Member… or does he have the fi gures they found much greater errors per head of population in the to clarify that… he has given us a period of 24 years UK than actually we have had here. where the overpayments were made and 16 years when As far as accounting procedures are concerned, most of the underpayments were made. We know there are 229 these were done at a time when the accounting procedures overpayments per year and 51 underpayments, so I would were done on a manual basis, rather than the computerised guess at this stage we will be paying out a lot less now, basis that we now have going forward, and that really is one because of the overpayments. Do we actually have the fi gures of the reasons that accounts for the issues and the errors over on how much less per year because we are only going to almost a quarter of a century, sir. be paying, lifting up the 51 underpayments, but we will be losing, or not doing, the 229. Does he have the fi gures for The President: Mr Downie, Hon. Member. what the difference for that is for the same period?

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions – Statement by the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission 1160 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

The President: Mr Houghton. By way of a motion carried in this Hon. Court at the sitting in April this year, the Department was requested to report Mr Houghton: Mr President, I am advised – and, of to the Court this month in respect of the termination by the course, this will be contained in the report that I do intend UK Government of the Reciprocal Health Agreement, such to circulate to all Hon. Members later today – that, almost… termination taking effect from 1st April 2010. this will be a saving of almost £5,000 a month. In fact, it is A number of matters relating to the ending of the £4,945 a month of saving, but we have to take into account Reciprocal Health Agreement still require resolution by that this is the… that the current annual amount of pensions the Department collaboratively with the working group paid to all public sector pensioners, as at June 2009, being addressing this matter, which is chaired by the Chief Minister. £35 million. So that puts matters in context, sir. The working group has asked that the Department prepare a report which will then be considered by the Council of The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. Ministers, with the intention of reporting to this Hon. Court in October. Mr Watterson: I would like to thank the Chairman of Mr President, I express my apologies that I am not in the the Civil Service Commission for looking into this matter, position to give a defi nitive comment on the matter at this as he said, as a result of the Question I asked. stage, but I am sure that Hon. Members will understand that In the light of these fi ndings, is it his intention to do a various matters must be considered in full. For example, the rolling series of checks and reviews of fi les to ensure that motion carried in this Court in April required the Department those people who may have historic pension rights are getting to explore with Ministers of the devolved United Kingdom the right amounts? Will that be part of a rolling programme administrations the prospects for continuing reciprocal NHS of checks? Is this all Personnel Division’s money, or is this services. Discussions with our colleagues in Scotland are money that would otherwise be billed out to Departments, under way, though we have followed up again our initial because a few thousand pounds a month might be a reasonable approaches to both Northern Ireland and Wales. This has amount of money to a small Department? signifi cantly increased the work streams. Members will, of course, be aware that one effect of The President: Mr Houghton. the ending of the Agreement is that emergency medical treatment for many Manx residents visiting the UK, where Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. such treatment requires the person to be admitted to hospital, In respect of rolling checks, as the Hon. Member says, will no longer be provided free of charge. Equally, the now that these manual checks, right across the almost 4,500 Government of the United Kingdom will cease to make an pensioners – those recipients of pensions – has been done annual contribution in respect of treatment provided on the and this error has been put correct, that now will put right Island to residents of the UK. The Department will need matters into the future, where it will be an ongoing updating to take account of what is thus, effectively, a reduction or uprating of their pensions paid and, of course, by receiving in the budget, which comes on top of what is, as Hon. advice from the Department of Health and Social Security, on Members already know, a challenging fi nancial time for the an annual basis, of the gross annual uprating increase for us Department. to work out each pension going forward. These errors were I thank you for the opportunity to make this statement, Mr really found in the stages when they were calculated at the President, and can reassure the Court that a report addressing time each respective pensioner actually retired. So there will all the relevant factors in full will be provided. be a regular audit done on this but, as far as a rolling audit Thank you, Mr President. on actually checking and manually checking each respective pensioner’s fi le, there is now no need to do that. That is one The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. piece of work that was only required to be done once. In respect of the money that this cost, of course, as Hon. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh explain Members will be aware, the Treasury is responsible for the fact that this agreement is going to go out of existence in that. It does not come out of actual departmental funds, as the very near future: why he is allowed not to be able to break it were, but as all Hon. Members will know, it actually is his promises, as far as getting a debate on such an important shown as such in the Budget programme, but we know that issue back to this Hon. Court? What assurances can we have the money comes, obviously, directly from the Treasury in that the dead hand of the executive will make sure that it is that particular regard. stifl ed until the very last minutes and Members of this Hon. Court are not given any alternatives but to follow the logic of the Council of Ministers on this proposal? Will we see a report in October, especially after my party’s policy, as far Reciprocal Health Agreement as what it believes should be done on this subject? Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security The President: Mr Teare.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, we turn to Item 4 on The Minister: I have said in my Statement, Mr President, your Order Paper, headed up ‘Reciprocal Health Agreement’. that we will report in October. This time it is a Statement by the Minister for Health and The Hon. Member who has just resumed his seat did Social Security, Mr Teare, please. mention his party’s proposal and, to refresh Hon. Members, that was to impose a levy on the transport, or the cost of The Minister for Health and Social Security (Mr tickets, to and from the Island both by sea and air. The Teare): Thank you, Mr President. interesting thing is that that attracted a considerable amount

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions – Statement by the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission Reciprocal Health Agreement – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1161 T126 of comment from the general public, all of which was October, I advised to the progress which had been made in antagonistic – there was nobody in favour – so I do thank the relation to the review of the planning system, and indicated Hon. Member for helping us to clarify one issue, sir. that once my Department had assessed not only the report prepared by the Improvement and Development Agency The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. (IDA), but also the responses to our public consultation, the report would be laid before the Court. I had hoped to do so Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. at this sitting, but circumstances have dictated otherwise. I wonder whether the Minister… At the bottom of his I will now explain the current situation. The IDA report Statement, on page 1… Could he indicate to us, or this Hon. considered the planning service in its broad sense, examining Court, when the meetings are to be taking place with the the strategic role of planning in Government, the preparation devolved parliaments or where he is exploring these? Could of the Development Plans, development control, special he give us a bit of a fl avour when the next meeting is? Where controls such as registered buildings, conservation and are we up to on talking with other jurisdictions? advertisements, and enforcement. The report also covered the issues raised by the Select Committee Report on the The President: Mr Teare. Poacher’s Pocket application. The responses to our public consultation were focused principally on development The Minister: The initial approach to Scotland was control, which is understandable, but should not lead us to followed up quite quickly by the Scottish Minister for Health neglect the other issues. and I have to say that the other jurisdictions, we have had Bearing this in mind, we have formulated three general to remind them, and I am still waiting for a response to that objectives. Firstly, we need a planning service which is a key reminder, sir. partner in enabling the achievement of Government’s strategic objectives. Secondly, we need to establish and maintain an The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. up-to-date policy framework for planning. Thirdly, we need to ensure that we have a development control system which is Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh, if it can customer focused, fair, proportionate and transparent, which be a matter of a couple of weeks and months that one can allows for local people to have a meaningful say, which come up with a proposal, then with the great resources that delivers the right decisions with appropriate speed and which are behind the Council of Ministers, the fact is, why have is effective in enforcing against bad development. they not come up with something more tangible now, instead Before outlining the changes by which we propose to of waiting to October, when we are only a couple of months achieve these objectives, I should like to stress that the away from the deadline, as far as the issue is concerned? need to change should not be taken to imply criticism of This is the most important issue, why have you not come the current planning staff. In my experience, the Planning up with something better, with the amount of resources that Offi ce is staffed by helpful and professional offi cers, but it you have got, if the Liberal party, with no full-time offi cers, is under resourced and the system within which it operates can come up with suggestions? Why have we got to wait and could be improved. These improvements fall into several is this just another way of marginalising real input into the broad categories. Some require only changes to practice or parliamentary procedure in Tynwald? management, and can be put in place fairly quickly. Indeed, some are already in place. Others require new legislation, The President: Mr Teare, Hon. Member. additional resources or agreement from other arms of Government. These will take longer. The Minister: The resources point is a point well made, Mr President, I would like to summarise now how we but then I did say that by widening the original motion, it intend to improve the effectiveness of the planning system, has had extra work-stream implications, and we have to deal but I do not propose today to detail our response to each and with those, as well. every one of the many changes which have been suggested by I would just take issue with the Hon. Member’s either the IDA or, indeed, the general public. Rather, I propose mathematics: it is not ‘a couple of months’ until it expires; it to arrange a briefi ng session for Members in September, at expires on 31st March next year which, from my reckoning, which all such details can be identifi ed and discussed. Further is approximately eight and a half months, sir. consideration by this Court can then follow in October, or when revised Orders and Regulations are brought forward Mr Karran: From today. for approval. Dealing, first, with what we have already done or can do fairly quickly, I start with the quality of planning applications. All applications should be suffi ciently clear, Progress made on review of planning system accurate and complete to enable a proper understanding Statement by the of the proposal by all interested parties. Poor applications Minister for Local Government and the Environment are a regular source of delays and criticism by neighbours, local authorities, the Planning Committee and the appeal The President: We move on to Item 5, Hon. Members, inspectorate. They also make enforcement either diffi cult or a Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the impossible. The Department is, therefore, now accepting only Environment, please – Mr Shimmin. applications which comply with the prescribed standards. In so doing, however, we shall ensure that these standards are The Minister for Local Government and the proportionate for small-scale developments, at least those Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. which need planning permission. Members will recall that, in a Statement to this Court last The arrangements whereby applications are determined,

Reciprocal Health Agreement – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Security Progress made on review of planning system – Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment 1162 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day either by the Planning Committee or by officers under the matter. Enforcement is a matter which concerned the delegated powers, also give rise to concern. (Interjection) As IDA and which clearly continues to concern members of the I explained in what turned out to be a Written Answer to a public, local authorities and, indeed, Members of this Court. Question from the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, in We have provided additional administrative support for our April, the Department has been operating a new draft scheme hard-working enforcement offi cer and we shall consider of delegation for a trial period. That scheme has now been making more use of our other inspectors – once there are refi ned and, after a further short trial, will be published. enough of them – and we shall endeavour to prioritise the The IDA recommended quite a lot of changes to the way work, as recommended in the report. Planning Committee meetings are operated. Some of these However, Mr President, we remain committed to have already been put in place. Others, including public resolving breaches of control by negotiation agreement, speaking by applicants and objectors, are acceptable in rather than by legal action, which will be used, but only when principle but have resource and training implications, and we have tried less adversarial approaches. will therefore take a little longer to implement. We shall also Establishment of a robust planning policy framework need to draft new standing orders for the Committee. is paramount to the operation of the planning system. Our The idea of introducing fees for making an appeal, or even strategic plan is now in place, and preparation of the fi rst Area an objection, was mooted but has currently been rejected Plan for the south is in hand. The doubt has been expressed by the Department. It appears that this could unreasonably about the deliverability of the remainder of the Area Plan disadvantage many would-be objectors or appellants and programme. I remain optimistic that the Department can would be at odds with our objective of being fair and publish the draft area plan for the south in October and that equitable. we can start work on the plan for the east before Christmas, I would now like to move on to those changes which we but it would be sensible and prudent to re-examine the intend to make but which are dependent on new secondary longer-term programme in December and, if necessary, legislation or better resources, or both. The fi rst and most consider whether the remaining plans should be combined effective of these is to expand the range of developments or prepared in tandem. which can take place without planning permission. A Other issues, such as the strategic role of Planning in complete revision of the Permitted Development Order will achieving Government’s objectives, and the establishment of take time to draft and is likely to attract confl icting opinions a Government-wide resource for research and data collection, when subject to public consultation. This will, therefore, are all most self-evidently sound in concept but need cross- be programmed, but is unlikely to take effect for at least departmental action and Government agreement before they another year. However, there are some changes to permitted can be put into effect. development which are not as contentious as others and In conclusion, Mr President, I hope that Members will would be very effective in reducing the number of needless accept my assurance that all of the many and useful ideas planning applications, to everyone’s advantage. which have been put forward as part of this review have been, These include a further extension of residential permitted or will be, considered seriously and will be put into effect development sited at a distance from neighbours’ boundaries, unless there is good reason why not, and subject, of course, a considerable relaxation in control of the installation of to having suffi cient resources to implement them and to this replacement windows which are outside of conservation Court approving the necessary legislation. areas and the introduction of permitted development Thank you. within, but not at the edges of many publicly owned sites, for example schools, hospitals, plantations, the NSC and The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for Douglas Harbour. This would enable improvements to our Michael. schools and other public facilities to be undertaken more effi ciently, whilst at the same time reducing the workload in Mr Cannan: I thank the Minister for his Statement, but I the Planning Offi ce. Major developments of public interest, would ask him: would he consider – in the light of previous such as marinas, would not, of course, be included, but it is comments regarding the Minister overturning a planning after public consultation I hope to arrange for these orders inspector’s decisions – that it would be easier if, when the to be brought before Tynwald in the New Year, when all Planning Committee made a decision, it gave not automatic Hon. Members will be able to offer their views and support right to leave to appeal but, obviously, in most cases leave to or otherwise. appeal, but where there was a decision which, regardless of The order which sets out the procedures for processing what the planning inspector did, the Minister would abide, on planning applications also needs revision, not only in advice, by the decision of the Planning Committee? Would response to the IDA and our public consultation, but also in he agree this would save a lot of time and a lot of expense, response to our experience of operating it since 2005. This were people knowing that in going to appeal… had a fair redrafting will be programmed. Particular consideration will hearing, a decision of an independent inspector, and that be given to the appeal system, including the disquiet felt by decision would be upheld? many lay applicants or objectors, when faced by legal counsel and professional witnesses and the possibility of broadening The President: Minister, Mr Shimmin. the range of circumstances in which costs might be awarded against spurious or vexatious appellants. The Minister: I think, Mr President, that is a matter We also intend to programme a revision of the control beyond my immediate control. I have made it clear that I of advertisement regulations, primarily to make them more believe it is my responsibility to ultimately make the fi nal intelligible for all those who try to use them, but also to determination on planning appeals and that the inspectors provide an opportunity for including recommendations arising are there to provide that independence to me prior to my from the Select Committee, which is currently considering fi nal decision.

Progress made on review of planning system – Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1163 T126

Certainly, I believe that the Hon. Member has raised Regarding the appeal system, I do not know where they an issue in previous weeks which has made me again look are coming from, the Department, regarding vexatious at this matter, and certainly my life would be much easier applications. In everybody’s mind, there are no winners in were I to merely go along with an independent planning planning; there is either a loser or winner, or somewhere in inspector’s decision. However, as has been identifi ed in between. I am just worried about them putting negative values a number of cases, I do not believe that that is in the best of money in there, just to stop people from objecting – which interests of our Island and, as the Minister responsible, at the it is their right to do and I would uphold that. moment, until advised otherwise by this Chamber, this Court, On page 3, the question would be regarding permitted I would consider that that is my responsibility. The matter developments. That is a great issue to move forward. But I will, however, be considered, as has been raised by the Hon. wonder: my prime example was 16 weeks to progress my Member now on a few occasions, that all matters need to be application for solar panels! We have got to look at things that re-examined and clarity to be given to all applicants. are tangible and reasonable, and do them more quickly. If I could mention regarding the top there, to do with The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. local authorities, and the question I ask, therefore, is are the local authorities capable of doing the planning? Some of the Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. observations that I have seen from local authorities, it is more I have a number of questions for the Minister. I am going like… although they are in public now, which is really great. to try and split them up, if I can, so he is not bogged down. I like that. Hardly anybody goes and I encourage the public to On page 4, if I could mention regarding the Southern go there. But it is like a horse-trading exercise, and I wonder Plan, he indicates there that there is a delay in it. Can I just what sort of plan the Department has for training purposes, ask regarding the Southern Plan… The consultation exercise for both local authority members and local authority offi cers. which has been brought to my attention has been poor. It has You want something which is a metre high and then you end not been interactive or with exchanged views between even up with something fi ve metres high – or 500 metres high. local authorities, down to builders, and the exchange with the Department. I just wonder whether he has a particular The President: I am fi nding it diffi cult to fi nd a question, view on that. I know he mentioned, then, particularly going Mr Quirk. towards the Eastern Plan – I still think the Department is Mr Shimmin to reply. asking for trouble, trying to bring fi ve local authorities’ area into one Area Plan. I think that you are talking about… Can Mr Quirk: Well, they are all questions – you imagine what fi ve sets of local authorities there…. no matter how many objectors and fi ve, or maybe more, ten sets The President: Mr Quirk! of the legal advice and major builders being there for days on Mr Shimmin to reply. end. I cannot imagine what the venue would be but, anyway, I am looking forward to it! Mr Quirk: Rounding up – Regarding enforcement on the same page, coming up from the comments, I must point out that, this time, I did The President: Mr Shimmin to reply! (Laughter) make comments to the Department, some time ago, and I was disappointed we have not had any actual feedback on The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. that, as well, from the Department until today. I know you are I think I have advised the Hon. Court or another place going to say that this is part of the consultation. But regarding regarding the timetable for the Southern Plan and that still enforcement, you mention strengthening the whatever, there is in compliance with the legislation. Therefore, it has been still is a concern about retrospective applications: do it, worry delayed as to our initial ambition, but is still within the about the consequences later; ‘Don’t worry, the Department legislation. will always approve it, because they won’t knock it down’. I hear the Hon. Member’s comment regarding poor It is very rarely… I think there are only two cases where consultation. I am disappointed he feels that way. I am they asked for structures to actually be dismantled. I do not aware, Mr President, of certain other parties who have felt know whether they were ever actually done. the same. I have also felt that many people have been satisfi ed The other one at the top of page 4 is regarding the appeal and, indeed, the length of time it takes is because we have system – endeavoured to consult more than anywhere else, I believe, would do in these matters. The President: Mr Quirk, are you coming down to a The Hon. Member raises the issue about the Eastern Plan: question, sir? It is not a statement. certainly, there are very few issues regarding planning which do not come without signifi cant diffi culties and that does not Mr Quirk: There are questions, Mr President – mean that we do not have to address them. With regard to enforcement, I disagree with the reality, The President : Come on then! but I understand the perception that the Hon. Member repeats which is about retrospective planning and it is always a Mr Quirk: – and it is the only opportunity Members can contentious area for those involved on both sides. However, have – like Mr Karran says, backbenchers – we certainly have enforced retrospective removal of items and that is why we are trying to enhance the enforcement The President: Get on with it. capability. Regrettably, the member of staff we had appointed for an enforcement role has no longer chosen to come to Mr Quirk: – you only get an opportunity once – or they the Department. Therefore, we will have to continue with may get it twice if they are lucky! increased administration, but still remaining with one very

Progress made on review of planning system – Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment 1164 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day hard-working offi cer of my Department. I am always grateful will not be another application within a fi ve-year period. for his commitment in very diffi cult and trying times. Certainly, life changes, demands change, and therefore that With regard to the vexatious matters on the appeals might sound easy to operate but actually might not be in the system, we have more rights in the Isle of Man to oppose an best interests of the public. It is always a balance, but I am appeal against planning decisions than almost anywhere on taking notes of all the comments. earth. That is a right which many people believe we would hang onto; however, the legislation already does cover the The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. opportunity for imposing a charge on vexatious appeals – for example, a person may appeal, but then fail to turn up for Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu Eaghtyrane. the appeal system. Could I ask the Shirveishagh several questions; the fi rst With regard to permitted developments, it will always be being, that it seems that with every successive Minister in contentious and we have the diffi culty that some people feel DoLGE comes further planning review: can he confi rm that, that solar panels and others should be advanced very quickly. in fact, the planning section of his Department is one of the However, others would feel we need to be pushing on with most under-resourced sections in the entire Government, as some of the more signifi cant developments, to try and get far as I am concerned? houses built. Therefore, the priorities are not always right, My third question is, how on earth is he going to achieve but we will attempt to improve. this, given the under-resourced factor and especially, in his With regard to local authorities capable of doing planning, own admission, with regard to Mr Olsen in the enforcement a number of local authorities believe they should have the section which I will name personally, because that man right. However, there certainly would be a requirement for deserves every praise from every Member of this Court for considerable training, and if Hon. Members think there keeping to the wheel over the years, as the only person in is already some discrepancy about the system now, you the entire section doing that job. Could he confi rm that the introduce 24 local authorities to the mix and it would be very planners are in a not quite similar situation, but not far away diffi cult to get any consensus across the Island. from it at times, working under extreme pressure and stress? How is that going to be managed and will he give an absolute A Member: Hear, hear. commitment, here and now, that he will give the planning section the top priority in the bidding process to assist those The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member for Malew staff to undertake the duties that his Department comes under and Santon. so much criticism for? The President: Mr Shimmin. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Confi rming the comments of the Member for Onchan, The Minister: Mr President, can I wholeheartedly agree Mr Quirk, on the Southern Area Plan, the last consultation with, and thank, the Hon. Member for North Douglas for his that the Department did, many people thought it would be an comments. I agree entirely with him that it is one of the most update on where the Department had got to on the Southern under-resourced areas in Government, because the demands Area Plan, not just a further consultation. It would have been placed upon a small number of staff is untenable and the stress a lot better if we had been given some further information on and pressure that they have been put under for many years where the Department had got up to with the consultations now and, indeed, the level of public and political criticism is which might have been, say, in areas of development. I one which I put on record my appreciation for their efforts. hope the Minister will take that on board and, before the I understand the comments regarding Mr Olsen, who document comes out in October, that he may go back to the is easy to identify, but I believe many of the people in public and say, ‘This is where we are up to,’ just for some development control are equally under the same level of further comment. pressure and as a quasi employer I feel very uncomfortable. One area I hope he will look at, as well, is the planning We continue to have adverts out and, in the current economic applications by attrition; the repeated planning applications situation in the UK, we are more optimistic at trying to attract put in, hoping to wear people down. They miss one and persons suitable to come in and in reassurance, the Chief then the application gets approved. I hope that they will Minister, the Treasury Minister, the Council of Ministers, enforce this rule that you cannot put an application in after realise that there is a demand for extra resources. Can we fi ve years. I hope there is something in there that you can actually get the staff to do it? give comfort on. I would apologise to this Court, but the reason why I am not coming forward with a more substantial response at The President: Mr Shimmin. the moment is for the very reason mentioned by the Hon. Member for North Douglas, that to do so would put even The Minister: I think we are criticised, in the fi rst part, greater pressure and I am attempting to remove some of regarding the level of consultation, and I think there is some that pressure, yet we need to try and simplify the system. I legitimacy for that. At times, Government has been criticised would also put on record my appreciation to all parties from for not consulting; we are now criticised for over-consulting. the former Chair of the Committee, Mrs Christian MLC, the We are drawing up the issues and options and that is maybe Planning Committee themselves and everybody associated. what the Hon. Member would have preferred to see at the It is something which we cannot try and get a quart out of previous stage; however, it was an attempt, for the fi rst time a pint pot repeatedly, month after month, and that is what for an area plan, to ensure we were not criticised for trying we have been doing. Therefore, any support from the Hon. to railroad things through. Member will be appreciated by my staff. With regard to the second matter, it is very diffi cult, in regard to planning periods, to turn round and say that there The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Member.

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Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. My understanding is that the review has rejected this proposal Mr Olsen has been under stress for many years and it is and I would ask whether he would look again at this proposal quite contrary for work staff to be put in that situation for so to avoid the poor applications which are a regular source of many years and not let it be addressed. delay and criticism and make enforcement either diffi cult or The reason I rise to my feet is with regard to planning impossible. Will the Minister look again at the notion of only permissions. I am thinking about the situation when a accepting drawings and plans which have been prepared by planning applicant can apply and apply and apply, year a qualifi ed person? after year, for the same position, and the people in that My second question relates to the matter raised by the Hon. neighbourhood have had to wait for any building to take Member for Malew and Santon and that is the applications place. Could it be seen that after four years the examination made as part of a campaign of attrition almost, which will take place to see whether that has any possibility of it require communities to mobilise and oppose applications. being built, and it is not just a way of leaving money in the The practice has been that the Planning Committee may bank because it increases… As soon as you sign a piece decline to consider applications which are either the same of paper that they have received planning permission, that or substantially the same as those made within the last fi ve increases the purchase price of the land… and if the renewal years. To further press the Minister on the point, would after four years could be reviewed, with a possibility of it the Department look again at that proposal and enshrine in being removed if it is not going to eventually result in what fi rmer regulation or statute that particular facility to decline was originally intended. to consider and thereby, in the Minister’s words, look at the Thank you, Mr President. rights, the wider rights, of communities in that particular regard? The President: Mr Shimmin. The President: Mr Shimmin. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am just advised by the new Chair of the Planning The Minister: Mr President, I would like the Speaker to Committee that it goes back to the Planning Committee after realise that the representation made by one of his constituents the fi rst period for renewal, but certainly if somewhere has some time ago did not fall on stony ground, although it has received planning permission, then it appears that that area taken some time to get to this stage. I think the Speaker has is suitable for development. You then go into the issue that if identifi ed something which would cause many members the person who owns the land in that case is not prepared to of the public and this Court some diffi culties if we were to develop it, it is still appropriate for development and you then become draconian and say that all planning applications would have to look and consider whether the Government have to be professionally produced. That is where we are should actually step in, and that is a further step down the attempting to try and get a proportionality between schemes road. which may be modest in nature and therefore not as critical to As much as I realise there are frustrations for locals in any be perfectly drawn. However, it is a message out to applicants, of these areas, indeed, in every aspect, as soon as you scratch but also to professionals in the industry, that if they fail… the planning issue, you will fi nd that there are people who are and indeed, on occasions, professional architects charging a dissatisfi ed with the outcome. I believe that we are victims, signifi cant amount to customers still do not provide suffi cient that we have given the members of the public so many rights information for an application to be dealt with, so we will to appeal and to object, that now that is something which is be enforcing a more rigorous standard upon that. However, grinding the system into an almost unmanageable situation at this stage I am not prepared take that fi nal step, although and, until we either treble the number of staff we have in this that is something we will have to consider for the future if area or we simplify the process, we will continue to have this measure does not actually improve matters. a system which neither benefi ts the residents nor indeed With regard to the attrition, as he refers to the matter of the developers, who I can assure the Hon. Court are more repeat applications, I would trust and hope that the local area frustrated in many cases than the actual residents in those plans should remove a great deal of this because we will then areas. have a situation where some 98 per cent, approximately, of planning applications would come forward in areas that The President: We move on, Hon. Members, to Item were zoned for appropriate development and therefore the 6. Mr Speaker. repeat ones of areas that are not zoned for a particular type of development would not even get past the fi rst port of call Mr Crowe: Mr Speaker, could I – of application. But that is still some years away, and again the confl ict comes in that we have a signifi cant need for more The President: Mr Speaker. houses and the houses are objected to by the neighbours living in the area already. Therefore, you have immediately got a The Speaker: Mr President, I have two questions for confl ict, and we, as Tynwald, and I, in my position, have a the Minister. The fi rst relates to the quality of planning responsibility to provide those facilities that are required applications, which the Minister rightly says should be by the people of the Island. That does mean, on occasions, suffi ciently clear, accurate and complete to enable a proper residents in an area will unfortunately have applications, as I understanding by interested parties. Will the Minister confi rm believe we have seen for some years in and around the eastern that representations have been made to his Department that all area of Douglas, where many of the planning applications applications and drawings should, in fact, be professionally have come forward because that is where the majority of prepared by, at least, an architectural draughtsman. This is a people choose to try and work or live. statutory requirement in the Republic of Ireland and, in doing so, say whether that suggestion has in fact been approved? The President: Mr Crowe, Hon. Member.

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Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. able to make recommendations by the end of November I thank the Minister for his statement. He just touched on this year, so I hope to be able to bring forward proposals rezoning of land for house building. I think there is a shorter for Tynwald approval in December. A planned delay of this route than the development orders and I am not sure, rather nature will also allow any change to our Minimum Wage than waiting for Area Plans, that he might consider bringing rates to be harmonised with the ﬁ nancial year beginning 1st some development orders forward for selected parts of the April 2010. east or the south for house building. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister. The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member.

The Minister: I share the Hon. Member of Council’s Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. view regarding development orders. They were meant to be a Would the Minister not agree with me that to say that, means by which things could operate more swiftly. That has in fact, because the RPI is negative at the minute, a lack of not been our experience, in some signifi cant part because of increase for six months will not have any particular impact, the issues raised by Mr Henderson about the staffi ng ability is actually belittling the situation, especially for those on that we have got to deal with these. the minimum bread line and in fact, would he further agree However, one of the difficulties with the planning to keep this under constant monitoring because the indices inspectors, is that when they know an area plan is might… or there is potential there for them to move quicker coming, they then argue the element of prematurity and than he has anticipated and that would seriously disadvantage therefore we have to fi nd a way of freeing up the system our workforce, would he not agree? to allow reasonable developments to take place. Therefore, Also, Eaghtyrane, would the Minister agree, in having development orders are a way forward, which we are actively this impact study to examine the impact of the construction looking at presently. industry, which I have raised in this place before, whereby there is a trend at the minute to pay the lowest wages possible to the likes of block layers, as to what they were getting ten years ago, so that, in fact, local staff are having to accept those Minimum Wage conditions to get employment to pay the household bills and Statement by the Minister for Trade and Industry mortgages and family upkeep and so on? Would he agree to look at the impact of that, so as to assess the actual lot of The President: Hon. Members, we will go on to Item 6, brickies and block layers currently, because it seems to me a Statement by the Minister for Trade and Industry, please. that they are going into their own sets of negative equity? Mr Cretney. The President: Mr Cretney. The Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Cretney): Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: In relation to the second point, I am sure The Minimum Wage Committee has informed me that, that the Minimum Wage Committee, when considering the at their last meeting, they unanimously resolved to defer impact study – which I do hope Hon. Members understand making a recommendation for six months. This is in order the reasons for – will take into account the comments made to obtain an impact study so that the effect of any changes by the Hon. Member. to the Minimum Wage rates could be based on locally- Can I just say, though, that the reason that I am here today based evidence. Following my Statement to Tynwald today, is that Tynwald decided that a Minimum Wage Committee the Committee will be writing to all individuals who have should be established. The Minimum Wage Committee has contacted them and supported their deliberations so far to reported back to me unanimously, (A Member: Hear, hear.) inform them of this. both workers and representatives of employers, that they feel Mr President, the Minimum Wage Committee feel that that this is the correct thing to do. I think I would have been the Manx impact study should be based upon the UK’s incorrect if I chose to ignore that advice. impact study. In the current economic climate, Mr President, I support this step and I have instructed offi cers in my The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. Department to begin this process to assist the Minimum Wage Committee to make their recommendation. I am conscious Mr Lowey: I am fascinated with what the Minister has that this delay of any proposed rise may delay any benefi t just said in his speech to us, that the delay, unanimously to relevant workers by six months. However, infl ation is supported by his Committee, is… that wage rates can be currently low. Indeed, the retail price index decreased 0.9 based on locally-based evidence. Could he tell the Court per cent in June. As a result, I do not believe the affected when is it based on anything other than local evidence? workers will be materially disadvantaged in the short term. Secondly, would the Minister also not agree that infl ation, Indeed, the resulting impact study will enable us to protect to some, when we have Government-led infl ation with rent their interests in an informed manner in the longer term. Mr increases of 5 per cent, sort of weakens his case (A Member: President, it should also be noted that the UK’s Low Pay Hear, hear.) when he produces the case for delays? Commission held off from reporting by three months, earlier this year, to obtain more detailed information at this diffi cult The President: Mr Cretney. time for the global economy. In recent years, the new rates were approved by Tynwald The Minister: Can I just make it clear, Mr President, I by July and then took effect on 1st October that year. It is am acutely aware of the needs of the low-paid persons in our now anticipated the Minimum Wage Committee will be society and I think my history will demonstrate that.

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The reason I am here today is that the Committee which this is money which will be, obviously, budgeted from within has been established believe that up until now the basis my own Department, in terms of making that available to upon which they have made their decisions has not been as them. In terms of the information which they require, my factually correct as could be the case. Yes, the Hon. Member, understanding is that this will be based upon its equivalent Mr Lowey, is obviously correct that such information as they survey which has been undertaken in the United Kingdom, have had to date has been based upon local circumstances, which forms the basis of their recommendation, in terms of but the fact is, in terms of statistics available and in terms Minimum Wage rates in the United Kingdom. Whilst I am the of information available, that has been rather scant and they fi rst… and I know a number of other Hon. Members in here want to make sure that there is a better-informed survey so would not wish to profess the United Kingdom is the be all that their conclusions can be better informed than perhaps and end all in terms of workers’ rights, what they do have in they have been in the past. place presently, which we do not have, is a properly informed process, and the basis upon which I have come today is to The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for try and put that process in place. Unfortunately, some of the Michael. information which has been available previously – via the Economic Division of Treasury, for example – is historic Mr Cannan: First of all, will the Minister acknowledge if data, and we are trying to get better information. he knows that I made a personal appearance to the Minimum Wage Committee, was there for 40 minutes and proposed or The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. recommended that the minimum wage be increased by 25p per hour or £10 a week for a 40-hour week and the basis for Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh… When that is that Whitley Council workers have already received, we talk about the Retail Price Index, the issue is, like has from 1st April this year, a 3 per cent rise to cope with the been raised by other Members, the likes of housing costs, general increases, which have already been pointed out by the and the fact of the housing costs for these individuals. We Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey, such as housing rents, have allowed for the fact that there is a 6 per cent increase on fi ve per cent in the Government sector and the general small benefi ts. Does he not feel that taking such a stance is, once rises which people at the low end of the social spectrum are again, penalising people who do not want to be on benefi ts, fi nding it diffi cult to meet. and does he not feel that we really should be at least going up Will the Minister agree that, while we have an independent the proposal of the Hon. Member for Michael, as far as Mr Minimum Wage Committee, the ultimate is for Tynwald to Cannan is concerned, if we are not to portray once again the determine – they only recommend, that Tynwald determine image where we had a Tax Strategy, where we were going to – and will he convey to them that the evidence of a three almost certainly end up with the people who have the money per cent rise for Whitley Council workers is a fact; the fi ve not paying the money and the people who have not got the per cent rise in council house rents is a fact; and that there is money paying the money for the tax instead? Does he not local infl ation of those items that are essential to everyday feel that it is unrealistic at this time, that we really should be living and, in particular, can ill be afforded by those at the putting it up at least in line with the minimum that we give bottom of the wage structure. to the Isle of Man workers?

The President: Minister. The President: Mr Cretney.

The Minister: Yes, I can confi rm that any comments The Minister: A recommendation has been made which are made in this hon. chamber will clearly be passed to me, Mr President – I have repeated this several times back to the independent Minimum Wage Committee, who now – unanimously by the Committee, which comprises have the task of, fi rst of all, advising me. I then have to representatives of the trade unions which represent workers’ consult with Treasury and then we, obviously, come to rights and representatives of the employers via the Chamber Tynwald ultimately. of Commerce or Employers’ Federation. It is a Committee Can I again emphasise that the recommendation which which was established with an independent chair, who has been made to me has been made by both representatives is legally qualifi ed. Their recommendation to me on this of the workers and employers. They both unanimously occasion is that they would like to have more information consider this is a correct action at this time. upon which to base their decision. I have decided to go along with that recommendation. The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. I did not have to go along with that recommendation, but I think the record shows that, in particular last year, Mr Watterson: Thank you. the decision that was made by this Hon. Court did make a If the Minister is going back with further information, signifi cant step forward and I do hope that, in the future, we there is the 6½ per cent rise in benefi ts that was approved by will be in a position so to do again. We do obviously, though, this Court, and pensions, so that is another signifi cant factor have to take account of the current economic climate that that needs to be taken into consideration. My questions are… pertains. This impact study… I am not really familiar with what one of these impact studies is for Minimum Wage. Will he tell us what data will be gathered by this study, what it will tell us and how much it will cost, please? Bill for signature Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 The President: Mr Cretney. The President: Now, Hon. Members, before I invite the The Minister: In terms of the cost of getting the data, Minister for Transport to move Item 8, I have another Bill for

Minimum Wage – Statement by the Minister for Trade and Industry Bill for signature: Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 1168 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day signing. It has already been to the Legislative Council, Hon. which intercepts the main runway – has been taken out of Members, so the Keys, please. The Companies (Amendment) operational use altogether due to the state of the surface. It is Bill 2009 will circulate while we continue with Item 8. evident that if reconstruction works are not carried out fairly soon, then over the next 12 months or so practically all of the southern taxiways will not be viable for operational use. If some or all of the southern taxiways are unfi t for Airport Pavement Refurbishment operational use, this will impact on several operations – such Expenditure approved as the Airport Fire Service (AFS) must be able to respond to any aircraft incident on the airfi eld within two minutes and 8. The Minister for Transport to move: a maximum of three minutes. The degrading of the surface will affect these operations. That Tynwald approves the Department of Transport Regarding the light aircraft and fl ying school aircraft, incurring expenditure not exceeding £2,980,335 in with the taxiway out of use, the fl ying school needs either respect of the Airport Pavement Refurbishment. to be relocated in the northern half of the airfi eld or move to another airfi eld. [Ref: Item no. 30 under the heading ‘Transport’ on page Concerning aircraft parking, there would be no aircraft 10 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10 and as detailed in parking on the southern side of the airfi eld. As regards aircraft the Estimates of Capital Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 operations with the southern taxiway out of use, aircraft will on page 59 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10] have to backtrack along the runway, reducing the effi ciency of the runway, which will lead to extending the takeoff and The President: I call on the Minister for Transport. landing times. Furthermore, as Minister for Transport, it is very important I point out the possibility that, with taxiways The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank breaking up, aircraft may carry debris onto the main runway. you, Mr President. This has a potential for very serious aircraft incidents. The Department’s Airport Pavement Refurbishment The work comprises: southern taxiway reconstruction; Project has the following essential objectives. They are: refurbishment/reconstruction of taxiway Bravo South, (1) to provide continued use of the taxiway and pavement Charlie South, Delta-Echo East and West, and Foxtrot; services so that the southern half of the airfi eld, including refurbishment/ reconstruction of areas Mike and Hotel; the Airport fi re station, remains operational; (2) to refurbish general aviation apron reconstruction; and aeronautical other selected pavements and hangar forecourts to maintain ground lighting to be undertaken by the airport technical effi ciency of aircraft operations on the ground; (3) to maintain services team. provision of aircraft parking outside the Airport’s restricted- The proposed construction method has been selected, as it zone high-security area in which commercial operations are is environmentally sound and employs recycling techniques. based, particularly to visiting large aircraft; (4) to refurbish For instance, where the pavement is worst and needs to be existing pavements associated with the northern hangar reconstructed, it uses a deep recycling method, using existing area; and (5) to continue the fl ying school and private fl ying materials to form the base for the new pavement. Also, where operation in the southern half the airfi eld. the reconstruction is shallow and limited to the surface, it The existing southern taxiway network and other planes and relays existing material, before a top surface is selected pavements are life-expired and, consequently, their applied. Consequently, this method minimises removal of reconstruction and refurbishment is required. Regarding the waste material off site, avoiding waste disposal costs and existing taxiway system at Ronaldsway, there has been little traffi c movements and minimising the need for brought-in signifi cant maintenance undertaken on elements of it since the aggregates. Second World War. Only fi rst-aid-type maintenance, such as On completion, the southern taxiways will have a new fi lling of potholes and patchwork repairs have been carried prolonged life, maintaining and continuing the use of that out. Visually, the pavement is in poor condition across much side of the airfi eld. Operational constraints will be improved, of the site with numerous surface defects, such as cracking, providing scope for additional aircraft parking and facilitating crazing, rutting, fretting and localised subsidence observed continued use of the fi re station in that area. Maintenance of in many areas. the other airfi eld taxiways will have been completed. Based on the loading – that is the weight of a fi re engine The Isle of Man Budget capital estimate 2009-10 indicates on two runs a day – the theoretical pavement life was found the Airport Pavement Refurbishment construction cost to be to be less than one year at six of the eight taxiway locations. £2,982,000 with £213,000 for pre-contract design fees, to The remaining two taxiways were found to have better give a total funding provision of £3,195,000. The total cost construction below the surface; however, pavement overlay of the scheme is £3,193,335 and it is confi rmed that Treasury will be required. One has a poor surface and the others are concurrence has been received for the sum of £2,980,335 in contaminated with redundant markings. The apron forecourt this fi nancial motion. of the general aviation area also requires some reconstruction. It is considered that the scheme offers excellent value In all, several of the taxiways will require reconstruction. for money. If the scheme is approved, it is intended to take Located on the southern side of the main runway, these are: the opportunity to use the transportable coating plant used several hangers for private aircraft operators; a fl ying school; during the Airport Runway Project airfi eld works last year, the Airport fi re station; and several taxiways, some of which which are still being stored on a site adjacent to the airfi eld are used at various times of the year for aircraft parking. and will be used for the remaining pavement work, when the Currently, most of the taxiways have a weight restriction of promontory is completed. This would save the extra cost of three tonnes in force for aircraft operations because of the demobilising and remobilising the transportable coating plant deterioration. In particular, one taxiway – Charlie South, from the UK specifi cally for the taxiway works, estimated at

Bill for signature: Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009 Airport Pavement Refurbishment – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1169 T126 a cost of £326,733. This saving has been taken into account I will be supporting this, as well, because, for some time, within this fi nancial motion. I have been going down towards the hangars at Ronaldsway The Department is confi dent that the use of recycling and I have been picking stones off by the hangars, some techniques will minimise the disposal of waste materials, avoid with the diameter of a 50 pence piece, and you talk to the the cost of disposal and thereby reduce the environmental, pilots down there and, you know, the damage the state of social and economic impacts of the proposed works. Subject this runway is doing to the planes is quite considerable. I to Tynwald approval today, the works will commence later just hope the Department is going to encourage more light this month and be completed by October 2009. Based on the aircraft to come into the Island now. information which I have outlined, it is recommended that Members of Tynwald approve this fi nancial motion for the The President: Mr Malarkey. Airport Pavement Refurbishment Project, so that work can be progressed at the earliest possible opportunity, in order to Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. safeguard general operations at the Isle of Man Airport. Hon. As a well-known critic of the runway extension, I am Members who availed themselves of the opportunity to visit happy to support this. I believe that the state of present the promontory work recently were able to see at fi rst hand runways down there are really in a bad state and I certainly the state of the taxiways and the need for this scheme. will be supporting the Department on this issue. I believe it Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my is for the good of the airport on the Isle of Man. name. The President: Mr Downie. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Turner. Mr Downie: Yes, Mr President. Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. Like some of the other speakers, I think this is a good I beg to second and reserve my remarks. investment. For those who have not had the benefi t of reading the papers, I think utilising the resources that are currently on The President: Hon. Member, Mr Lowey. the Isle of Man involved in the RESA and the fact that Colas have all their equipment on the Isle of Man, that has made Mr Lowey: Of all the resolutions that the Hon. a signifi cant inroad into the price that has been received. If Minister is moving today, this is one that I can support Hon. Members actually look at what is being carried out down wholeheartedly. there, and the length and breadth of the taxiways, I think for As a boy, I was picking spuds at the end of the road for once we are getting a bit of a bargain here, so Hon. Members Mr Curphey at Balthane when I remember these runways should be voting for this. If we had to put it into a normal being constructed for commercial use and, in the well-worn project and not have the benefi t of all this equipment being phrase of the sketch by Monty Python, this blue Norwegian available, I am sure it would cost an awful lot more money parrot is well and truly dead. The runways are in a bad state; than it is costing now, so I will support it. they have got to be done. Sixty years plus is good value and therefore I think the Court will unanimously support this one, The President: Mr Braidwood. because I think really it has been good value for money, and I am sure if the relaid runways last as long as the originals Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. we will have a good bargain. As a supporter of the runway safety area extension, I think this is another extension to that with the work on the taxiways The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. and the pavements. We are also utilising and recycling a lot of the materials to cut down the cost of taking the waste from the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say that my site and, as my hon. colleague in Treasury, the Hon. Member disappointment is that the information for this proposal only of Council, Mr Downie, has said, the equipment is already came the other day. I have already written to you, Eaghtyrane, on the airfi eld and I hope Hon. Members in this Court will about the issue of the information being circulated well in support the Minister for Transport. advance. I have no problem with this proposal that is in front of us, The President: Minister to reply. but I am concerned that we do need to have the information to Hon. Members in a reasonable time period, and I do think The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. it is important, when we are talking about only £2.9 million Quite briefl y, I think I would like to thank Hon. Members here on the Agenda Paper, that we still deserve the courtesy of for their support. having the full information well in advance of the sitting. Obviously, Mr Lowey has had a lot of experience in that I agree with the Hon. Member of Council. The fact is area for a long time and knows no reinvestment has been that if the plant is there at the present time and we can save done on these taxiways. some money with the horrendous problems we have got, as Mr Karran, the Hon. Member, was disappointed about the far as value for money from this Department, then we should information supplied; however, this information was supplied be supporting this Department when it actually does try to at the presentation and I would like to thank Hon. Members do something that will come to fruition where the taxpayer who availed themselves of the opportunity to come to the actually saves some money on a capital project. presentation that we put on for Members. I would just like to thank the Hon. Members, Mr Cregeen The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. – obviously the local Member – and Mr Malarkey, who had reservations about one or two of our schemes but he has now Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. got on board with this.

Airport Pavement Refurbishment – Expenditure approved 1170 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

Obviously, Mr Downie recognises the advantages of the Johnny Watterson’s Lane timing of this scheme with the plant being available. Outer Link Stage 3 I thank the Hon. former Minister, Mr Braidwood, who Expenditure approved also recognises how well-needed this scheme is. I beg to move, Mr President. 9. The Minister for Transport to move:

The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to That Tynwald approves the Department of Transport the Court is that printed at Item 8 on your Order Paper, Hon. incurring expenditure not exceeding £993,323 in respect Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The of Outer Link Stage 3 – Johnny Watterson’s Lane. ayes have it. [Ref: item no. 36 under the heading ‘Transport’ on page A division was called for. 10 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10 and as included in the Estimates of Capital Payments 2009-10 to 2012-13 on The President: Patience, Hon. Members. You may page 58 and 59 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10] vote. The President: We go on to Item 9 and, again, I call on Mr Gawne: Eaghtyrane, I pressed the wrong button. the Minister for Transport to move. (Laughter and interjections) The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank The President: Can we cancel and redo, Clerk? you, Mr President. (Interjections) Johnny Watterson’s Lane forms a part of the Douglas Now, Hon. Members, the vote is cancelled. Voting is outer link, which is classifi ed as a primary distributor in the on. Island’s road network hierarchy. Other areas which have recently been completed on the outer link include Braddan A division was called for and electronic voting resulted Bridge and Governor’s Bridge. as follows: Johnny Watterson’s Lane carries in excess of 4,500 vehicles per day in each direction. It is the main link to In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 1 Noble’s Hospital from the North of the Island, and a bus route. Currently, the carriageway is inconsistent in its width FOR AGAINST and has a poor running service and inadequate surface-water Mr Quirk Mr Henderson drainage. Furthermore, there is no footway link between the Mr Earnshaw Mr Karran entrances to Governor’s Hill and Abbeyfi elds. Residential Mr Brown development in the area in recent years has led to a signifi cant Mr Crookall increase in traffi c volumes, and at peak times it is particularly Mr Anderson diffi cult for motorists emerging from Hailwood Avenue and Mrs Craine Campion Way. Mr Bell Mr Quayle To facilitate safe transport, it is considered that a Mr Teare highway improvement scheme is necessary. The section Mr Cregeen of proposed highway improvement on Johnny Watterson’s Mr Malarkey Lane runs from its junction with Cronk y Berry housing Mr Braidwood estate to its junction with Abbeyfi elds, a distance of 730 Mr Corkish metres. The proposed work will include: road-widening at Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson several locations to achieve the required 7.3-metre-wide Mr Gawne carriageway; the provision of a 90-metre radius at the two Mr Gill bends; improvements to the stopping site distances along The Speaker Johnny Watterson’s Lane; visibility improvements at the junctions at Hailwood Avenue and Campion Way; provision The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the of a 1.8-metre-wide footway between Governor’s Hill and Keys, 19 votes for, 1 against. Abbeyfi elds; provision of a right-turn ghost island at the junction leading into Governor’s Hill; improvements to the In the Council – AyesAyes 9, Noes 0 carriageway running service and drainage. It is proposed that the works be carried out by the FOR AGAINST Mr Callister None Department of Transport Works Division. The Works Mr Crowe Division are proposing to trial the use of new modernised Mr Downie working practices, including extended-hours shift working. Mrs Christian If agreement with the workforce can be achieved, the work, The Lord Bishop formerly scheduled for 34 weeks, will take in the region of Mr Lowey Mr Waft 10 weeks. Mr Butt In accordance with section 10 of the Treasury Act 1985, Mr Turner full Treasury concurrence has been given for this scheme and consultation with stakeholders has taken place. Statutory The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, 9 voted authorities will be given the opportunity to review their for, no votes cast against, Hon. Members. The motion services during construction. therefore carries. This proposed highway improvement scheme also fully

Airport Pavement Refurbishment – Expenditure approved Johnny Watterson’s Lane – Outer Link Stage 3 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1171 T126 demonstrates some of the core purposes, aims and objectives pedestrian footway, which the Minister has already spoken of the Isle of Man Government and Department of Transport’s of (A Member: Hear, hear.) where none exists at the minute business plan by contributing to a sound and suffi cient and people from all round the area, including Onchan, have physical infrastructure for the Island. to walk on a rough grassed area which, in fact, is quite Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my dangerous and one could quite easily trip over and fall into name. the carriageway. There are other issues there, such as the junctions and so on. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. I think the Hon. Member would have been quite right. Eight years ago, if he was looking at the original plans, which Mr Quirk: Mr President, I beg to second, sir, and reserve actually called for something… what I would class, more my remarks. hugely, more substantial. This has been tailor-made to suit the area far better, in my opinion, and certainly answers the The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. junction problems and visibility issues which would marry in well with the priority to maintenance and issues that require Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I just ask the questions. When to be tackled, Eaghtyrane. we know that, in the very near future, unemployment is going to be one of the major issues that we will have to start The President: Mr Lowey. to address again, why is the priority put, as far as this Item here today – especially when we see the many issues of Mr Lowey: Briefl y, the Minister must be getting worried: basic maintenance that should be done on the roads that are I am going to support for the second time – two out of not being addressed? Do I take it that this will be done in- two! house by our own workforce? Is it going to be done outside The ring road: this is the ring road around the capital and by contract? this is, if you like, another piece of that jigsaw. It only seems I think it is important that we need to start strategically like yesterday when we fi rst started it. I remember opposing planning for work schemes at a later date, as far as having the fi rst part going through the Nunnery, because of the trees. to mop up unemployment that almost certainly will be an Here we are now, up at Johnny Watterson’s Lane. effect of a world recession outside these shores. I am very Let us face it, it has been an immense improvement to concerned that the fact is that… where is the priority over the capital, that ring road – believe you me! The danger, the outer link stage 3 and general maintenance? as I see it… and I had family, I mentioned – I went to the The issues, the concerns that have been expressed about presentation that was done by the Minister – I have family Braddan Bridge and I know there has been a proposal to put who live there and I know fi rst-hand how dangerous it was a top layer on, around the roundabout at Braddan Bridge, to come out of there. It was explained to me why and how, but there are other major problems, as far as structural and therefore I can support this one, if you like, as one of issues that need to be addressed – the same as the bottom of the fi nal pieces of that jigsaw, which is to complete the ring Richmond Hill, as far as I am aware. I think it is important road. It is not quite complete yet, but it is very nearly at the that the Minister, as the person who is supposed to be there to end. We cannot take our foot off the accelerator now; we develop policy and priorities – obviously not there to design have got to get on with it. I think it is a phased programme the different schemes… how he justifi es doing this over the and I would support this resolution. so many pressing problems, as far as general maintenance as far as the roads on the Island. The President: Minister to reply.

The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Member. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank Hon. Members for their contributions Mr Waft: Yes, Mr President, I have mentioned it to the and also attending our presentation, where the scheme was Minister before, but has he taken into consideration the effect explained in some detail, the week before last. it will have on trafﬁ c going through Governor’s Bridge, In relation to the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, through Onchan and down Summerhill… the trafﬁ c at the I said in my opening remarks that it would be done through bottom of Summerhill and has he accounted for that? the Works Division of the Department. The method in which With regard to the comments previously, if we start, we are doing that is a new shift work pattern scheme that make a start, on the Promenade at sometime in the future, we have fortunately been able to get the workforce on board there will be no lack of work for the workforce that he has with, and it will enable the job to be done in 10 weeks, as at the moment. opposed to over 40. He has concerns that this is not a priority. However, as The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member. the Hon. Member, Mr Henderson, says, this scheme has been in the gestation for an awful long time and the reason why it Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. has not come forward earlier is because there have been land I think to answer the Hon. Member for Onchan, opposite issues and the acquisition of that land is now taking place. me, is the fact that this Scheme has been on the stocks, There are some parcels of land we still need to acquire but we possibly for as long as eight to 10 years, certainly in draft can do that in a revenue scheme later on, to complete what format that long, so it is not a case of priorities. It is a case we want to do. But what we have before you today, we have that has actually grown its way through in the way it should all the necessary land purchases lined up. have done and, some would say, probably more slowly than The Hon. Member for Onchan mentioned Braddan it should have done. Bridge, and putting another top surface on that. Braddan One of the issues it does address is a very dangerous Bridge has been completed, and I think is a demonstration

Johnny Watterson’s Lane – Outer Link Stage 3 – Expenditure approved 1172 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day of how well the outer link is working. There were a lot of The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, reservations about that scheme when it came forward. I since the collapse of Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle think it demonstrates a job well done, and I am confi dent of Man) Limited, I am sure that each Member of this Court that the workforce will complete this outer link and to the has been keenly aware of the complex factors that have same high standard. surrounded this case, and each one of us appreciative of the I thank Mr Waft for his comments. We have taken into ever-changing environment of those issues and pressures account the possible traffi c congestion and we will be putting upon Government to assist the depositors during their time measures in place to make sure that traffi c does run smoothly. of need. He does make a point about the Promenade scheme. We I will not dwell on the considerable efforts that Treasury need very deep pockets when we come to that scheme, but and Government collectively have made to address the we must make sure that the alternatives are in place before plight of the Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of we embark on that. Man) Limited depositors and the continued support given I would like to thank Mr Lowey for his support, again. by this Hon. Court in an attempt to bring about relief, fi rstly Twice in one day: I think that is a record! Thank you very through the Early Payment Schemes and, subsequently, in much. the promotion of the Scheme of Arrangement that regrettably I would like to thank the Hon. Members for North failed to receive the necessary majority of support of creditors Douglas, who have been very supportive of this scheme and at the vote held on 19th May. Following that ballot result, the can quite clearly see the benefi ts to their community with the High Court subsequently placed the company into liquidation new pavement, as well. on 27th May. As a result, on the same day, the Financial So, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in Supervision Commission, as scheme manager, activated the my name. Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. Hon. Members will no doubt be aware that The President: Minister, for my particular point of view PriceWaterhouseCoopers have since been confirmed as – and I may have missed it, so I apologise – I think you said liquidators by the High Court and their work to resolve the you have all the land now in ownership. I think there was complex rights of set-off relating to the company debts and a query over that when we had the presentation. Could you recover the maximum return for creditors progresses in just clarify that, sir? earnest. However, it is clear that the recovery of KSF assets and payment of credited dividends will inevitably take a The Minister: Yes, Mr President, we have the land few years to unwind, given the present forecast projections required for this scheme. of the liquidator. In the interim, the Financial Supervision There will be a small scheme coming forward in the Commission, as scheme manager, in conjunction with the future on the areas, parcels of land, we have not been able Treasury, have structured a facility by which a full payment to acquire, but they do not impact on this scheme. to eligible depositors, under the regulations, may be made, The President: Thank you. where possible, as early as August or early September of this Hon. Members, with that clarifi cation, I put to you the year. In essence, this will be achieved through Government Item printed at 9 on your Order Paper, that Tynwald approves meeting its share of the obligation under the Depositors’ the Department of Transport incurring expenditure not Compensation Scheme through funding the return of those exceeding £993,323 in respect of Outer Link Stage 3 – Johnny eligible deposits between the £20,000 threshold and the Watterson’s Lane. upper limit of £50,000 established under the regulations. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; against, It is estimated that the gross cost of this element within the no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Depositors’ Compensation Scheme may amount to some £73 million. In addition, it is proposed that, subject to the approval of this Hon. Court, Treasury will also provide an interest-free loan of up to £120 million to assist the accelerated cashfl ow Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 of compensation to depositors and facilitate full repayment Expenditure approved to all eligible Depositors’ Compensation Scheme claimants in a single amount, which, as I indicated earlier, could be 10. The Minister for the Treasury to move: made as soon as August 2009. Hon. Members will, I am sure, appreciate the administrative That Tynwald approves the Treasury be authorised to process involved in handling the signifi cant volume of claims expend during the years ending 31st March 2010 and from depositors, which will require a consistent, coherent 31st March 2011 an aggregate sum not exceeding £193 and joined-up approach by the scheme manager for the DCS million being in respect of funding payments to account and the liquidator. In this respect, I understand that there is holders of Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Isle of already a good working arrangement and liaison between the Man) Limited under the Compensation of Depositors parties to provide an effective claims-handling service. The Regulations 2008. Treasury will also work closely with the scheme manager of the DCS in assessing the cashfl ow requirements needed to That Tynwald approves the transfer from the Reserve Fund meet the value of claims arising from depositors and secure to the General Revenue Account of a sum not exceeding arrangements to make available such funding to match the £193 million to meet the anticipated expenditure of this repayments being made. Scheme. Mr President, I appreciate that many Hon. Members attended the briefi ng that was given on 3rd July to explain The President: Item 10. I call on the Minister for the the basis of the £193 million funding required, being the Treasury to move, please. subject of this motion, and the interaction of that amount

Johnny Watterson’s Lane – Outer Link Stage 3 – Expenditure approved Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1173 T126 with the Early Payment Scheme expenditure already paid, I would like to make it clear, here and now, that it is the contribution levies to be made by the banks, and the the intention of this Government that the higher threshold dividends to be paid out by the liquidator. of compensation, for individual eligible depositors, should However, for the sake of clarity, I should like to reiterate remain at least at the existing £50,000 level. Therefore, in that the funding being made available for the Depositors’ the event of any slippage in the plan, to have an amended Compensation Scheme is not in addition to the previous Scheme at the October Tynwald, I will move a motion at that £105 million already made available for the Early Payment sitting to extend the current arrangements, thus removing Scheme. A signifi cant proportion of the £85 million already the uncertainty around the sunset clause. I am making these paid out for this purpose will be offset against a share of the points clear, Mr President, at this time, to provide confi dence Government’s obligation of £73 million under the Depositors’ and certainty to depositors between now and the October Compensation Scheme. The remaining element, largely sitting of Tynwald. paid to the insurance companies in respect of underlying Mr President, if I may just sum up, and reiterate to Hon. bondholders, will be recovered directly from the liquidator Members, that the purpose of the motion before us today is to as part of his fi rst distribution of their dividend assigned to approve the necessary funding to ensure that, where possible, Treasury. eligible depositors are able to achieve a full payment of their Another way of looking at it is that the Early Payment entitlement under the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme by Scheme payments are being rolled into the funding August or early September of this year. This will provide arrangements for the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. a 100 per cent return of deposits to over three quarters of In a similar fashion, the resolution passed by this Court to Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited support the scheme of arrangement and provide the necessary depositors. funding to the tune of £180 million will not now be required With that end in mind, Mr President, I beg to move the following the result of the creditors’ ballot and the majority resolution in my name. vote against that proposal. The purpose of that fi nancial provision will now lapse and no expenditure will be incurred The President: Chief Minister. for that scheme. Mr President, returning to the matter of the interest free The Chief Minister: I beg to second and reserve my loan of £120 million, Hon. Members will appreciate that remarks, sir. this represents an advance against those levies due from contributing banks of some £21 million and a further advance The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. in the sum of £99 million against future dividends payable by Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. the liquidator. Whilst it is acknowledged that Treasury will Unfortunately, I was unable to get to be the presentation suffer a loss of investment income accruing to its reserve that was held somewhat last minute by the Chief Minister and funds at the rate of £3 million per year over the period until Treasury Minister, although I appreciate that such is life. full recovery is made, this decision has been taken with the I appreciate also how liquid Government’s investments best intention to minimise the burden of additional costs must be in order to be able to get them out within a month. I falling onto the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. am just wondering, in the estimates that we have had, about I would advise Hon. Members that the current forecast of how much this is likely to cost, whether this is incurring any dividend projections do not envisage a full recovery of the exit fees and dealing fees that it is going to take to get this loan being returned to Government until May 2012. Again, money out of the system. I would reiterate to Hon. Members that these forecasts are I just would like to ask, in terms of the priorities and dates predicated on an estimated recovery of 74p in the pound that we are looking at, going forward for the scheme manager by KSF (Isle of Man) Limited and that the underlying – it is about getting 100 per cent of the money back for three dividend distribution from KSF UK will be at least 50p in quarters of the depositors – by the end of August, I think is the pound. what you said – is that going to be a matter of closing out If the forecast projections from the liquidator are in terms of the payouts? That will be that everybody who successful and the realisation of assets secured when has got any claim will be fully settled by that date. That is Government will recover the vast majority of the funds something that, if that is the case, I am really pleased about. advanced from the subsequent liquidation proceeds, I can I also think it is worth welcoming the commitment here and assure Members that the eventual cost, although unknown now that it is the intention to retain the £50,000 upper limit, at this stage, will not exceed £50 million and it is likely to irrespective of the sunset clause. be signifi cantly lower than this. I am just trying to get my head around some of the other Mr President, I would like to take the opportunity to sums that we are talking about. Government will be paying make two separate but related points. I remain committed out in August, and that payment will then be passed on in to reviewing and producing an amended Depositors’ the same month through the scheme manager. This is going Compensation Scheme and to continue to aim to have such to be quite a signifi cant administrative task. I do not know a Scheme before the October sitting of Tynwald. However, if we are still talking about 10,000 depositors – we were, I believe that it is more important to ensure that such a and I know that a lot of them will have been taken out of Scheme is robust and fi t for purpose, than it is to be driven the system by the early payment scheme, but it still would to achieve a particular date. Were there to be any slippage be nice to know how many depositors we are left talking – and I emphasise that I will be working to avoid such a about and dealing with at this stage, and how that will also situation – then people may be concerned as to what will be impacting on those large depositors who fall outside the happen to the higher threshold of compensation to eligible Depositors’ Compensation Scheme, and whether there will depositors on 23rd October, when the so-called sunset clause be any funds left, in terms of paying out a proportion of the is due to take effect. amounts over the £100,000.

Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved 1174 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

The liability of the local banks is another interesting background on the pseudo proposals of looking at how we point, in that we know how many licence holders there manage ourselves in these diffi cult times, Eaghtyrane. are. That was made public, I think way back in October, in response to a Question. What I would like to know is how The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. much we actually anticipate getting in from licence holders on an annual basis, in order to recoup the total amount. It Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am a little bit concerned. I is something I have not been able to just quickly sort out in think, to be fair, the Minister’s input into this debate… At that short space of time. least he has made a clear undertaking that if he has not got Another issue that was raised early on, and was somewhat something to replace it he will keep the present scheme going mitigated by, I think, the Scheme of Arrangement, was the after October. I do sympathise in the fact that we are in a very case of the Skandia bondholders and how they were going diffi cult position over this issue and I think that we have got to be treated. I would like a little bit of clarity today about to recognise that we are in a very diffi cult position, especially whether they are going to be left aside, in that Skandia is one allowing for us not using the boom years to really diversify depositor and will get one set of £50,000, or will it unravel the economy away from being so dependent on a couple of that and make each separate bondholder an individual core activities in the Manx economy. depositor? That is something that came up very early on in My concern is, and the danger that concerns me, this debate and something I would like some clarity on. Eaghtyrane, is if this happens again, can we afford it? I think I suppose the fi nal question and I suppose the sixty-four the points that the Hon. Member for Rushen raised are very thousand dollar question, is this money, this payment out, valid. I think it is important that we do have… You do need these repayments by the banks and through the dividend a clear undertaking, because you cannot spend taxpayers’ payments over the next three years, is that the end of the money more than once. What concerns me is that what I see Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander affair for Treasury? This here… and I understand that the Republic of Ireland went one payment out, we get the repayments over the next few for… which sounded, at the beginning, very good, absolutely years, does that end Treasury’s liability with this or will it fantastic: ‘We will guarantee it 100 per cent.’ Wicky-wacky- still be pursuing issues such as any potential legal action with woo! Now look what has happened: the tiger economy is now the UK regulator… with people in Iceland? a pussycat and the situation is not one in very good nick, even Will we still be looking to get a deal like the Landsbanki at that stage at the present time, because of that nonsense. deal, where part of the money that was given by the IMF to I understand the diffi cult position that the Treasury is in the Icelandic banking system had to be paid on equal terms – the fact that we have to have an issue of confi dence, we with local depositors, as other depositors? That is something have an issue of trying to keep this most important sector that is being fed through the UK and to other places that afl oat and moving – but I have to ask that question: can we were seriously impacted with that, like Guernsey. Will we really afford the present way? be seeking part of a similar deal on that or is this cheque that I am disappointed and I am rather concerned that the we write from the Isle of Man Government to the scheme Shirveishagh Tashtee says that he is not giving a commitment manager in August, is this the end of Treasury’s dealing with that we will fi nd a 100-per-cent-funded scheme in October. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander altogether? That is a big I understand the problems that he has got on that point, question and that is one which I hope the Treasury Minister especially now that we see so many banks nationalised by will be able to answer today. the United Kingdom Government, and the fact is that the bigotry and ignorance of certain quarters there about the The President: Mr Henderson. Isle of Man will not help the situation, as far as giving them any excuses for leaving our shores, but I fear that it does Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. seem to be something that is quite ironical that some people I would just like to ask you a couple of questions here. who are not associated with me have been saying for years Obviously we are quite supportive of what Treasury are that we will end up having to subsidise the banks, and here endeavouring to do. we are today having to go along with this proposal, when The fi rst is, we are told that once everything is in place, we have a situation where we have just had a statement that ultimately three quarters or 70 odd per cent of investors will a the taxpayers, who are low-wage earners and are paid £6 an have 100 per cent payout. I think we could do with knowing, hour, or thereabouts, part of their tax money will be going actually, what the ceiling is for that. I mean, say an investor towards subsidising where there have been trillions of pounds with £170,000, would it be up that far to cover people of that worth of profi ts. ilk or are we talking minor investors under £100,000? Some I do think that this Hon. Court really needs to consider sort of indicator of what we are dealing with here would be the experiences that we have seen with the United Kingdom nice to know. and the experiences that we have seen with the Republic Suffi ce to say, Eaghtyrane, my feelings on this remain of Ireland and whether we can afford to go down this road the same. We are here because of bully Britain and we are because, in proportionality, when you look at Iceland, when not part of this problem. We did not cause it and we are not you look at the Irish Republic, we are far more dependent really in the position to fi x the global climate that is required on this issue and more able to create horrendous fi scal debts to organise other matters and I just think that needs to go for future generations, and I think we have made enough of on record while we are progressing this here because this them over the years. is something not of our doing and I am quite happy to keep I will not be able to support the proposal in front of us reiterating that, Eaghtyrane. But, of course I am pleased in today. I understand the diffi culties the Treasury Minister the way with the efforts that have gone into managing the fi nds himself in. I believe that by doing this and, once again, situation and coping with an inquiry launched on us in the allowing this Court and the Council of Ministers to take the

Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1175 T126 easy option of raiding the piggybank, we would be far better be the centre of the universe, I sometimes have to reluctantly making a declaration that we will come up with a properly agree that we are not, but having said that, I believe this funded scheme. The fact is that I think that the danger is, Government has acted both responsibly and fairly and this whilst I understand the security and the continuity and the scheme… It is, as the Treasury Minister has said… The other problems that the Treasury Minister has, I do think that it scheme that we had in place, which has been rejected by the is a policy that if there are still clouds on the horizon we investors… This is the one which we should be supporting cannot afford to fund. I think there will be arguments here now and the bulk of that money… and I would suggest that in this Hon. Court that will be saying we cannot afford not some of the money that is readily available in that time comes to fund the situation. I think that that will be something that from that fund which has already been transferred from people will have to judge in the future, but what concerns reserves ready for distribution if that inquiry took place. me, Eaghtyrane, is the fact that I wonder whether this I have to say, Mr President, there is no other show in policy is sustainable, and is it responsible Government and town but this is… whether there were other shows in town, a responsible parliament to go along with something that this is fair and it is reasonable. I would support it and urge really, at the end of the day, if we have only seen the start the Court to. of a storm that has cooled down in the fi nance sector, and if there are more storm clouds ahead which are going to be The President: Mr Crowe, Hon. Member. worse than what we have seen, can we afford to take that sort of gamble with this proposal, Eaghtyrane? Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to support the Scheme. I understand that there are The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. about 12,000 depositors of KSF (Isle of Man); 25 per cent have been repaid in full already, under the Early Payment Mr Lowey: I rise to support the resolution and really just Scheme, and this Scheme will help accelerate the payments, to say, in essence, this is just a short-term loan for a three-year as the Isle of Man Government is pre-funding the scheme, and period to see us through a problem. then will recover the amounts due from the banks over three Mr Karran regularly says there is a subsidy to the banks. years. These Depositors’ Compensation Scheme advances The Minister has already spelt out that, in essence, it is the will bring the wait of the depositors for compensation under interest of the money that we will lose for a three-year period the Regulations to an end at as early a date as possible. The until we get it back in. That is the essence of it, so it is not key thing I see is that the estimated 75 per cent of depositors a long-term investment. I would remind Mr Karran that we will recover 100 per cent of their deposit, and the remainder have been taking money in taxes and revenue from the fi nance of the depositors, through the liquidation, will recover around 75 pence in the pound. sector for a long period of time, so this is a redress in that I would just like to recall that this is not a situation particular area for a short period of time. caused by the Government of the Isle of Man, but we as I am on my feet, really, to say we do look to Government a Government are trying as far as possible to mitigate the to do everything. If I was a person who had £½ million to effects. invest, the fi rst thing I would do is I would be asking an investment adviser. If it went wrong, I would be after him. Let The President: Mr Speaker. me just say I had £½ million to invest and I invested it over this period of time in the Nigerian stock exchange because The Speaker: Mr President, in supporting the resolution, it was offering me 10 or 15 per cent. Do you think this Court I do nonetheless echo concerns that have been voiced this would be here today saying, ‘Tough, Lowey, you’ve got it afternoon in the sense of the cost, the ultimate cost, to wrong, the bottom has fallen out of the market.’ ‘Please, Treasury from reserves and to the Isle of Man taxpayer. The Government of the Isle of Man, will you help me?’ No, we £193 million, of course, as is made clear, £120 million of would not. Neither would we be doing this specifi cally for the that is advance payment, payment up front – the expectation Isle of Man. This all concurred with a worldwide collapse of that will be fully recovered – £21 million to be recovered the banking system – not unique, not the UK. They are part of from the banks over time and £99 million through the the world; we are, too. This is this Government’s response. dividend distributions arising as the liquidation progresses. I believe this Government, as I have said many times in But, nonetheless, there is a net cost to the Isle of Man and, this Court, have acted fairly and responsibly. I genuinely of course, this is not a surprise. believe that we have taken all the positive steps we can. I We entered and drew up the Depositors Regulation do believe that we have put the emphasis on the lower and Scheme with our eyes open and appreciated that there would medium investors and a reasonable return to those with the be, if invoked – if the regulations were invoked – a cost, megabucks. I have to say, with the greatest respect to those money that Government will pay that we will never see people, that they must take responsibility for their own again. So my question is, what happens now? This is the… investments, (Two Members: Hear, hear.) not look to the our decision this afternoon is the inevitable consequence Government to guarantee watertight… Nobody in their right of the past 12 months, an inexorable process of invoking mind would even suggest that that would be the norm. the… uplifting the Depositors’ Compensation Scheme and Therefore, I look at this scheme and I look at the efforts then activating it, having tried another mechanism, the early that have been put into it, and I genuinely believe that any payment scheme, in the meantime. But where do we go from fair-minded person could do no other than support it, because here as a Government? What steps, what legal action will I think it is reasonable, I think it is fair and, genuinely, it is be taken, if any, to attempt to recover the costs falling on a huge problem. The world is going through it. Government? Those millions will never be seen again. To We do tend to think that we are the only people in the whom do we apply, if we can apply, to recover those costs? universe at times. We are not, and as much as we would like to What legal advice is being sought for the next stage?

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We have done our duty and compensated the depositors in There is just one question I have to ask the Treasury a very honourable way. Nonetheless, the Isle of Man taxpayer Minister, withdrawing £193 million from the reserves – much is still net out of pocket. What action redress are we going of it has already been withdrawn, anyway, and this is a book- to seek on behalf of the Isle of Man taxpayer? keeping exercise, I think that he will confi rm – where has the money come from? Has it come from equities which have The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for seriously fallen in value by maybe a third over the past 12 Michael. months? Or has it come from gilts or cash deposits? If it has come from the reserves, the market value of the reserves Mr Cannan: Mr President, to use a well hackneyed will have fallen greater and it may affect the book value of phrase, I believe there is no alternative but to support this the reserves relative to the £193 million. That is the only action. We have all in the past approved, in Tynwald, the question I have of the Treasury Minister in this matter, and Compensation of Depositors Regulations, and we are duty I think, in the public interest, he should indicate where the bound to honour what we established. This is the result of money has come from. it. But there is, in my view – and I go back to what Mr The President: Chief Minister. Lowey, the Hon. Member of Council, said about a Nigerian bank and would the Isle of Man compensate… This was an The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Icelandic bank, which had a subsidiary in the Isle of Man I am clearly leaving the Treasury Minister to deal with which was licensed by the Financial Supervision Commission the detail of all of this, but I think it is important just to put of the Isle of Man. Whether they were to blame or whether a few points on. they were not, that I believe is a matter that an enquiry will I think my fi rst start is really to thank Hon. Members for eventually fi nd out – who was to blame, and what were the their support over what has now been about eight or nine causes of it. But for the depositors, rightly or wrongly, when months of quite a diffi cult situation for the whole of the Island they made their investment in the bank, they perceived it to in terms of the situation that arose. I know that Members be licensed by the Isle of Man Government. have been extremely supportive and helpful in terms of understanding the situation as it has unfolded, and we have A Member: They don’t guarantee it, though. tried to keep Members informed and I think and hope that that has been of help to Members. Mr Cannan: Not guaranteed, but it was licensed. That I think the main point is that, when we are down to has always been a selling point of the Isle of Man. When the this part, of course we have had a Depositors’ Competition Savings and Investment Bank went down, when I was fi rst Scheme since 1991. When this situation arose, we were the elected – and Mr Lowey was well familiar with it, as was only small offshore Island that had such a Scheme and I think Mr Brown – we were in deep trouble. We determined then, that that is something we should actually be very proud of. through Tynwald, to establish the Financial Supervision That puts us in a position which actually did give confi dence Commission, to regulate the fi nancial system and endeavour to depositors, regardless of the KSF situation that arose, to ensure that such a thing did not happen again. Well, who continued to deposit money here in the Isle of Man of course, it has happened. It has happened twice since: because of the publicity that the Isle of Man actually had a it happened with the Bank of Credit and Commerce Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. I think that is something International, and following that, in 1991, we established a that we should not underestimate, and certainly when that was Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. brought in in 1991, for those of us who were here, it was a After that crash and the Depositors’ Compensation major step forward and a major decision for us to take, with Scheme, Tynwald determined that there would not be another the support of the banks, who at that stage… I think it is fair bank crash. Unfortunately, there has been and, as I say, until to say there was some reluctance but an understanding of the there is an enquiry we will not know where things went wrong need to make that step forward. – if we will ever know where things actually went wrong. I think the other thing we should not forget is it is also But in this case, we have to accept the responsibility of about reputation. One thing, as a small Island, that we see as having established a Depositors’ Compensation Scheme. We being very important is the reputation and the reputational must now go through the motions of paying for it. Mr Rodan aspect of the Island, not only here on the Island but actually has said, where do we go for the money that Government has off Island when other people are looking in at us to see lost? That can only be fi nally, in my view, looked at again what we do. I think this also comes down to that point in when a committee of enquiry has, with professional advice, our consideration. looked into where things have gone wrong and who to pursue, Clearly, the sums of money we are talking about are if that is possible. If not, it will have to be written off. Again, substantial and we are fortunate to have such reserves now there appears to me to be no alternative. where we are in a position to roll over this money to enable But the worst thing we can do is to spend millions on us to make sure that this scheme operates effectively – more legal fees, pursuing a cause for recovery that is not going effectively than maybe has been in the past – and I think that to get the recovery, and then there will be howls in here, is something that we should not underestimate because I do ‘We’ve spent £2 million or £3 million on legal fees seeking believe that is important. Again, when we have had the Early recovery, when there was no chance for recovery in the fi rst Payment Scheme, which we know has helped a lot of people place!’ Time and again that has happened, both in the public in terms of the advance payments that we have made, where and private sectors, when people and fi rms have gone for a people who had only a small amount of savings in fact did recovery on the advice of lawyers who see a lunch ticket for fi nd themselves in a diffi cult position, and I think that all themselves for a very long period. the feedback we have had there is that that was very much

Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1177 T126 welcomed by many people both on and off the Island. Again, accumulated over the last few months. So, as far as I know, I think Tynwald Court has clearly demonstrated support for at the moment, we were almost there, in terms of the funds Government to take this forward when we have requested that we need. I do not believe there has been much in the that support, and I thank Hon. Members for that. way of extra cost, through that exercise. Mr President, I think just really to make the point that He asked for confi rmation of whether 75 per cent will this is a major step. It is an important one for us. It tidies up be settled by September. It is our ambition at the moment, this aspect of the depositors and where we are from there, talking to the scheme manager, Mr President, that we will and there is still a lot to go on this situation with the bank have paid out roughly 75 per cent of the depositors by the now being in liquidation and, of course, something further end of September. These are those who have sub-£50,000 on on the Order Paper, which as Hon. Members know, deposits. As I think I already touched on previously, some 25 because the Treasury Minister, on behalf of Government, per cent of the depositors have already been paid out through has already indicated in a previous debate that in fact our Early Payment Scheme, and it will really be down to the Government supports the principle of taking that forward scheme manager now to ensure that this money is paid out as an investigation. as quickly as possible. I would just like to, really, put on record my thanks, Mr Watterson, like Mr Karran I think, had made reference fi nally, to my political colleagues and the senior offi cers also to the sunset clause. I share their concerns to make sure of Government who work vigorously with the Attorney that confi dence is maintained in the Isle of Man, that we General’s offi ce and the FSC to try and make sure we are do not end up in a hiatus whereby we have not got the new moving forward in a way that we need to. It is a considerable DCS in place in time before the sunset clause kicks in. So amount of additional work, from the Chief Secretary down, we have already given an undertaking and my offi cers are to make sure, with the Chief Financial Offi cer, that we ensuring that it will run back to back, whatever that date is. can actually get to where we are today, and we should not If the scheme is not ready by October, then the sunset clause underestimate the considerable input and extra hours they will run on until the scheme is available, so I can give that have had to put in to make sure that we are in the position assurance. that we are today to take this forward. Mr Watterson has asked how many individual depositors With that, Mr President, I just thank everybody who has will be left. I have not got the exact fi gure, but I think the total been involved, including the public, who I think have a good number of depositors was 11,000 or 12,000. We have paid understanding of what we are trying to do and why we are out 25 per cent; we have 50 per cent left. At a guess, and it doing it, because this is important to us and important to their is no more than that – I cannot give you a specifi c fi gure on future, as well. With that, Mr President, I would just like to that – but there will be 5,000 or 6,000 people who will be thank the Treasury Minister and teams for all the work they directly impacted to take it up to the 75 per cent. have put in, and I hope Members will support the motion The Skandia bonds, Mr President – I think we have stated before us. before the bondholders are grouped into a single deposit by insurer and each bond will get £20,000, so that, I think is the The President: Treasury Minister to reply. answer to that particular one. One or two Members also, Mr President, mentioned will The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Bell): Thank you, this be the end of Treasury’s involvement and what legal Mr President. action will be taken. I did answer a Question – I think it was Can I start by thanking Hon. Members for the understanding last month, Mr President – that we have taken legal advice on that they have given to this particular problem, and echoing certain aspects of it and have been advised that legal action the Chief Minister’s comments, not just today but over the probably would not work. Taking up the point of Mr Cannan, last nine months, which has been a test for all of us, I think, the Hon. Member for Onchan, it is always possible… it is and took us all into new territory. Also I have to say, I would always open to us to take – like to broaden that thanks out to the understanding of the Manx people generally, because this is a very substantial Mr Cannan: Mr Cannan, the Member for Onchan? amount of money we are talking about, Mr President, and I personally have only been met with understanding by people A Member: Cannan, Kirk Michael. on the street, recognising that what we have tried to do is the responsible thing for the Isle of Man, which affects the The Minister: Oh, are you still in Kirk Michael? Sorry Isle of Man’s reputation. Indirectly, then, it impacts on the about that! (Laughter) Sorry, the Member for Onchan, I meant economy, which is their own standard living as well, and I to say… for Michael, I meant to say, who mentioned the point think a well-earned thank you ought to be given to the Manx – a very valid point – that it would be very easy to waste people for understanding our situation and working alongside millions of pounds in fruitless legal fees and we obviously are us, supporting us in what we are trying to do. concerned not to expend any more money than is absolutely Mr President, I will try to answer most of the points that necessary on this, bearing in mind the commitment we have have been made . All Members, I think, have been in support already made. But that does not mean that if we fi nd evidence of what we are trying to do, but if I can start with the Hon. that we can pursue other actions, then certainly Treasury and Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson, his concern was exit the Council of Ministers will still be considering what the fees. As far as I know, we have not incurred any exit fees at best way forward is in the time ahead. all, because the funding is from bank cash deposits which I thank Mr Henderson for his comment and his support. we have with the banks, which have been quietly unravelled The maximum fi gure is £50,000 per person, so if it is a joint on their due maturity date, so we have not actually lost any account it will be £100,000. I take his point absolutely on money in the process of that, and the funds have been quietly board that this is not an Isle of Man generated problem; it is

Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved 1178 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day one which has been caused by external factors, particularly it has been in place for some 20 years. If we were to renege the action taken by the United Kingdom Government in on that scheme now, our reputation would be destroyed reaction to the situation in Iceland. That is one point we must completely and I do not believe, Mr President, that we can not forget or allow others to forget: that this is not a failure look to the future with that stain on our reputation, because of the Isle of Man’s system. frankly it would be the end of the fi nancial services industry, Mr Karran – this time the Member for Onchan, I hope! if that was the case. I do believe the action that we are putting – I, again, appreciate the comments he has made. He has forward today is the act of a responsible government and made these points many times before in previous debates. it continues the responsible attitude that the majority of I would point out, though, Mr President, whilst it is very Members in this Chamber have shown over the last nine easy to say that this is what we should do for the future, months, while we have grappled with trying to get a solution Treasury and this Hon. Court, Mr President, today have to to this problem. deal with the present. We may have to bring in a different Mr Lowey: I thank him again for his support and the scheme, a different DCS and we will see how this evolves clarity he brings to this debate. It is a short-term loan. It is, over the summer. But for the moment, Mr President, it is our in effect, a cash-fl owing exercise. We will ultimately get earnest hope that we can do the very best we can for existing the bulk of this money returned to the reserves, but it will depositors who have been affected by this collapse. What help to speed up the payment to those people… and most of happens in the future is a different issue altogether; I have those people are relatively small depositors. In some cases to deal with the today. – in many cases – just ordinary working people who have He makes the comment, Mr President, that it is the low their limited life savings tied up in this bank. earners subsidising the banks and he has been saying for years I believe what we are trying to do is help those people that the Isle of Man will have to bail out the banks. First of and I think, certainly on the response I have had so far, it has all, Mr President, there has been a Depositors’ Compensation been greatly appreciated by those people who already have Scheme in since 1991. Politicians, the public, the depositors benefi ted from the Early Payment Scheme. I would reiterate and the banks themselves have all known that this potential his point about the personal responsibility of depositors and I commitment has been there for nearly 20 years. It has served am sure, not just in the case of KSF but people’s experience of the Isle of Man well, because it has set the Island apart from the banking collapse worldwide will perhaps in future be a bit most other small jurisdictions – in fact, I think all other small more careful in considering how either to place their deposits jurisdictions – and, in fact, most other countries in Europe, or indeed to spread those deposits to give them some better until fairly recently, did not have a scheme comparable with security, and the recognition that any investment, wherever it what we have in the Isle of Man. So, I think the Isle of Man is, does from time to time carry a certain amount of risk and has been ahead of the game on this. It has helped to generate what goes up can also come down. This is a basic message, I new business for the Isle of Man, but it is something, Mr think, which is said all the time in other investment arenas. President, which we have gone into with our eyes open. It The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe, I thank him would be wrong to say now that we have suddenly had this for his support. sprung on us, and that we should not be doing this. Mr Speaker, again: what is the long-term cost to I will also point out, Mr President, where the Hon. Government? As I have said in my presentation, I think, Member mentions it is the low earners subsidising the banks, we believe it will be a fi gure substantially less than £50 that the banks themselves have been the largest taxpayers million, but at this stage I cannot be specifi c as to what that on this Island for a great many years. It is as much their tax net fi gure will be. A great deal, obviously, is going to rely contributions over the years which will be going actually to on the effectiveness of the liquidator and the level of asset fund, because it is their tax dollars which have gone into our return to the liquidation proceeds. reserves over the years; it is not, with the greatest respect, The Hon. Member for Michael – I hope I have got it those on £6 an hour on the minimum wage. right this time – or Ballaugh, or somewhere out that way I would also point out, Mr President, the very substantial – (A Member: Onchan!) I fully support his moves and I contribution, not only that the banks have made to our tax have said on a number of occasions, Mr President, I will be position, but they are still the largest employer on the Isle supporting his resolution on the Agenda today for an inquiry of Man. They employ some 3,500 people and most of those to actually fi nd out what has gone on. I think it is important people are Manx people, they are our own young people from everybody’s point of view that we have a clear idea as and they themselves have been paying taxes over the years, best we possibly can of what has contributed to this problem as well, alongside the banks. So I think when we make that and if there are any lessons we can learn from it to make comment, we need to look at the picture in the round to fully sure, as far as possible, it cannot happen again. As I have understand the contribution that has been made. said in the past, the only reason I have been cautious about Again, the comment that we should have been diversifying supporting it prior to this date is not to have my offi cers the economy, not relying on fi nancial services, I think if the tied up in an inquiry when we are still grappling to try and Hon. Member would only just refl ect on that statement and fi nd a solution to the problem. I think now that liquidation look at the amount of work that has gone in over the last few has been agreed we can move on to the next stage, which years, to try and diversify the economy, he will see that his is an inquiry, and I am very happy to support Mr Cannan’s comment has no validity at all. resolution on that basis. His fi nal comment, Mr President: is this responsible Again, he asks the question – and I think I have already government? Mr President, if the Isle of Man stood by and answered it, really, with my comment to Mr Watterson – has did nothing that would be irresponsible government, frankly. the money come from equities? It has come from the cash (The Chief Minister: Hear, hear.) We have a scheme, it is deposits which we hold with the banks and that is where it has a legally based scheme approved by this Hon. Chamber and been credited, but I do take the point that, had we tried to cash

Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008 – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1179 T126 in equities at this point, there would have been a further loss A division was called for and electronic voting resulted incurred at the same time so we have tried to avoid that. as follows: Finally, Mr President, the Chief Minister: I thank him for his support and obviously the work he has put in, alongside In the Keys – Ayes 20, Noes 1 Treasury and other offi cers, and Mr Teare as well, to try and fi nd a solution to this. There has been a huge amount gone FOR AGAINST of work gone in over the last nine months, to try and get to Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Brown where we are today. Mr Crookall I would just really fi nish with two points which the Mr Anderson Chief Minister has touched on. First of all, we should not Mrs Craine underestimate how fortunate we are at the moment, Mr Mr Bell President, in having built up these strong reserves over the last Mr Quayle Mr Teare few years. We have done very well and I know – and I have Mr Cannan probably been one of them over the years – we have always Mr Cregeen argued that we should not be putting money into reserves Mr Houghton – it is best to go into the Health Department or housing Mr Henderson Mr Malarkey or whatever the issue of the day might be – but I think the Mr Braidwood wisdom of a steady fl ow of funds into the reserves has been Mr Corkish proven by the fact that you never know when a rainy day is Mr Cretney going to hit you. Looking back, Mr President, who would Mr Watterson have predicted the set of circumstances which have brought Mr Gawne Mr Gill about this collapse? Notwithstanding the fact that we set up The Speaker a DCS in 1991 and all the other precautions, would we have predicted these circumstances, the UK involvement, the The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys the motion Icelandic collapse…? This is something that even the most carries, 20 votes for, 1 against. farseeing politician, I think, would have struggled to see. So, it is most important that we have these reserves, and once In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 the economy starts moving again, it is most important that we continue to replenish those reserves for any future rainy FOR AGAINST day that might come along. Mr Callister None Finally, Mr President, I would just simply reiterate also, Mr Crowe once again, that we are moving this forward today on two Mr Downie The Lord Bishop fronts: fi rstly, out of a sincere desire to help the depositors Mr Lowey to bring a speedy relief to as many of them as quickly as we Mr Waft possibly can. We do fully understand the personal tragedies Mr Butt that this collapse has caused. We have done our utmost – in Mr Turner some eyes, I accept it is not as much as they perhaps would like – to try and bring a speedy restitution of their funds, and The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, 8 we will continue to do so. Members voted for, no vote being cast against, Hon. So part of this resolution is to achieve just that end, Mr Members, the motion therefore carries. President; but also Members, I am sure, are aware that we also Hon. Members, it is now, I think, an appropriate time have to do our best to maintain and secure our international at which we took our break. The Court will resume its reputation, as a blue-chip fi nancial services centre. We will deliberations at Item 11 at twenty fi ve minutes to six, Hon. be talking later on, Mr President, about the international Members. Thank you. taxation strategy, and how we are going to secure the Isle of Man’s reputation on that front. This is a further element of The Court adjourned at 5.02 p.m. that, and I think the way we handle this, the way we are seen and resumed its sitting at 5.35 p.m. to be handling this, in a fair and equitable manner will also, I believe, enhance the Isle of Man’s reputation., So, Mr President, I thank Members for their support and their forbearance with this. It has been a long journey Woodchipping and Handling Facility over the last nine months to get here, but I am hopeful now, (for fuel production) certainly for the majority of depositors, there is clear light Expenditure approved at the end of the tunnel. 11. The Minister for Agriculture Fisheries and Forestry to The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to move: the Court is printed at Item 10 on your Order Paper, headed out, Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008. Hon. That Tynwald approves the Department of Agriculture Members, it is clearly spelt out what the funding is for and Fisheries and Forestry incurring expenditure not clearly spelt out where the transfer comes from. exceeding £757,000 in respect of the development of Hon. Members, I put to you the motion printed at Item woodchip production for use as a fuel for suitable 10 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; Government buildings and the Department’s District against, no. The ayes have it. Heating Scheme at St John’s.

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[Ref: Item no. 8 under the heading ‘Agriculture, Fisheries The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. and Forestry “Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production)”’ on page 7 of the Isle of Man Budget Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. 2009-10 and as detailed in the Capital Estimates 2009- Just rising to welcome the initiative from the Department 10 to 2013-14 (p. 15) of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10 of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, but I do have some (Ref: G11 006)] concerns, Minister, regarding the proposal. Okay, it is for a large building in DAFF headquarters… I just wonder The President: Hon. Members, if you will, please. We whether, if the price of fuels switch and the fuel source, which will revert to our Order Paper at Item 11, Woodchipping and is the woodchips on this one… if there were to be any change Handling Facility (for fuel production). I call on the Minister or fl uctuation with moving it, would these units, which are for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to move, please. Hon. quite substantial in size, be capable of being adapted to oil Member, Mr Gawne. fuelling? We used have them, in the past, where a number of schools did have, years ago, big, huge coal boilers in a The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry similar sort of vein. (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The other issue I have with the Minister, and I raised it The Department is seeking approval today to expenditure some time ago with him, was regarding the effi ciencies of of £757,000 to develop the production of woodchips for them. They are slow, lumbering units which provide heat use in both its new headquarters at St John’s and in other out, but not really very controllable heat. It probably takes Government buildings. To date, both my Department and hours for it to actually turn off, so therefore you have got to the Department of Local Government and the Environment have a secondary loop to take away the heat. Regarding the are committed to the use of woodchips for heating purposes summer months… and I know you are going to say if they and the Department of Education is investigating the use of go into schools they are not always there, but will there be, woodchip at its QE2 School. to complement this… and it is a shame there was no further The commitments made up to now far exceed targets detail from the Department of Local Government – from Mr to make development of this heating fuel viable. Costs of Longworth, who is the person who is championing this – to woodchip are shown to be extremely competitive when say what do we do if we are just producing water to it, and compared to other fuel sources and will reduce as production if a combination between these large appliances for heating increases. The briefi ng paper circulated to Members last week purposes… Okay, it is great, but what do we do when we contains information on the cost of production and use in are looking just for water when we have had quite a good comparison to alternative heating products, and I hope that reasonable two or three months of good weather? You would Members found that paper useful. not want to start a huge boiler off and have to circumvent all If this development is progressed, I believe it will show the heat somewhere else. that the Isle of Man can and will lead the way in the supply The other issue was regarding the sustainability of of carbon-neutral, locally produced sustainable fuel. This will be a good example for other Departments and private-sector it. I wonder whether the Minister… The note is quite companies to follow, demonstrating internationally that our comprehensive, indicating to us whether its sustainability Island is providing a lead in environmentally responsible, regarding the source of fuel… Would it be, in his term, that we cost-effective fuel production. would not have to import material? That would be negative I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in towards this particular unit. One case does not fi t all. my name. I noted the comments from the former Member of DoLGE – he still is a Member for DoLGE, but not for housing – Mr The President: Hon. Member, Mr Butt. Watterson. If the small units were to be in fashion – and they are, as secondary heating methods –whether there should be Mr Butt: Thank you, Mr President. some guidance notes too for the use of fl ues, because these I beg leave to second and reserve my remarks. particular ones that burn coal or wood actually require their fl ues to be 100-per-cent sound, and the number of fl ues on The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. the Island at the moment that are stone-built could cause diffi culty. Mr Watterson: Mr President, I am delighted to support So, while welcoming it, I do have some reservations, this and, speaking very briefl y to it, I would like to call on wondering whether these can be sourced locally through local other Members and other Departments to look towards agents. That is the major thing too. I would not like to see, as this Scheme as a template and develop some green energy has been in the past, particularly for the Board of Education, schemes such as this when they are thinking about designing where they have been buying boilers from off Island. new buildings. I know that during my time in DoLGE, as Member for housing, we have managed to move forward the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. new phase at Reayrt y Chrink. That will be a new sheltered scheme, new-build scheme, using exactly this in order to Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. heat the various properties. That is down at the Four Roads As a former Member of the Department, this Scheme was in Rushen. There are a host of different types of buildings just beginning when I had to leave. I took some interest in that this can be used in. I hope this is the future for the Isle it and it seemed to me to be a very worthy scheme indeed. of Man. It certainly will benefi t the environment. It will certainly As I say, I encourage Members to look at schemes as provide savings for the Department initially and probably they come forward to see if this is an appropriate fuel source then for other areas of Government as well, but I do have for heating or powering those buildings. I think this is the one or two questions for the Minister. future, sir. In the notes that we received, it refers here to a

Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production) – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1181 T126 woodchipping machine capable of being moved from site to The paper indicates that the Department have been using site to allow the most effective operation. I wonder – apart a sawdust fuel system in the past. Perhaps the Minister could from the forestry products, presumably, that will be used for indicate how they disposed of the ash from that, whether this chipping initially – whether such things as the timber or not the new system will be any different, and indeed, if that goes into waste disposal… The civic amenity sites take we are going to use this for sheltered housing or residential a great deal of timber that could possibly be usable for this. homes, we need to have a fairly mechanised system, I would Green waste that is currently going to the incinerator – a suggest, both of fuelling the boiler and of removing the ash. certain amount of that certainly would be able to be used, As one who had a house which was fuelled by a straw burner, so I wonder whether that is possible with the fact that this is I can tell you that the ash-removal process was laborious a mobile operation. and boring and I would not expect that in a modern system The other aspect of this is what sort of ash deposits are we should have any manual handling of this material. It is left as a result of the burning process of this? I presume there something that we need to think about, in terms of disposal. would be deposits of one kind or another. Is there any need We have introduced our IRIS system and we have disposal for special disposal of those? issues with sewage sludge and so on. I just hope that we The reference that the Hon. Member, Mr Quirk, made to have thought about the disposal issues in relation to this oil… I was interested to read this week that, in the University process. of Georgia in America, they are looking at woodchip as a means of providing a new form of bio diesel, which in fact The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. can be mixed with other forms of diesel in order to use in vehicles and so on. That may well be something for the future Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. for the Department to consider as well. It may come as bit of a shock to some Hon. Members that I Thank you, Mr President. am actually questioning this process at the minute, but I think I am right in doing so, given the current fi nancial climate and The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. the cost of what is down on the paper here, and given we have been castigated over the past few months now, from Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. the Treasury Minister in particular, with regard to prudence, I welcome the principle and the courage of the Minister cutbacks, departmental spending, savings initiatives and all in moving this before us, but I would just ask him, for clarity, the rest of it. What we have got here – I do not know if the if he could explain why this fi gure, or a fi gure that was the Minister can tell us – hopefully we have got something with nearest estimate to it, was not included in the original motion proven technology to start with. I remember the pyrolysis for the development of the headquarters. It does not really argument, a few years ago, when we were discussing the matter of itself, but for clearness and completeness perhaps incinerator, and I remember the robust debating points put it should have been. I certainly do not recall any mention, back by the Hon. Minister at that point, Mr Quine, in relation and I stand to be corrected if that was the case, but perhaps to pyrolysis and so on, but it was shown to be working in the Minister could clarify that. some areas, and I think, to be fair, here we need to understand Certainly, as I say, the principle is one I welcome. As a what we are dealing with. prudent voice of caution, I would not wish to get too carried The other thing that bothers me is what is this strapping us away that this is going to be the energy solution to the Isle of into? The Minister has said there is a wish for all Government Man’s needs. It clearly is not – we know that on the Energy Departments to go down this route at some point. That being Policy Working Group from investigation – and indeed the so, to completely refi t all the building heating systems is scale of this operation is so limited that that prudence is hugely expensive. Obviously, they come to the end of their satisfi ed because we will be able to test the effi ciency or life, anyway, and that would be the time to be rejigging otherwise of this process over the years to come. things. Really, my fi nal point that I come to, Eaghtyrane, is But following on from that, I am wondering where all would the Minister undertake to circulate to all Members the wood and timber is going to come from, because I am performance data about the system and if it does indeed quite conscious of the battles I have had in here over the past meet the aspirations and expectations he has described, and 10 years, Eaghtyrane, in trying to have ecology and habitats indeed, if not, tell us that? That does not matter, because recognised to some degree or other. If the Minister is going to life is a learning experience, but I very much hope that he tell us it is going to be sustainable through the Christmas tree will be able to come back on an annual basis with evidence coniferous plantings we have all over our heather moorland, I to prove that, in appropriate circumstances where the scale will be more than happy to support that, so they we can free up is appropriate for this type of burning, this is a technology some of the moorland that should be there anyway. However, that we should look more to embrace and utilise across our if it is going to encourage felling of local native species or needs, sir. encroachment into important habitat areas, then I think that is one we need to watch, and we need some reassurances from The President: Mrs Christian, Hon. Member. the Minister on that. Certainly, if you think about the size of some Government Departments, Eaghtyrane, and the size of Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. the heating systems used, and the amount of fuel that they I just want to expand on the point raised by my colleague, would require on any one day, certainly through the winter, Mr Callister, in respect of ash disposal. There is nothing in then we are talking about a large amount of fuel source here. the paper which indicates how this will be done and how the Most interesting to hear the Minister’s comments on the ash will be used, if it is usable, and I do think that this could sustainability argument. As I say, if we can use coniferous be a signifi cant matter if we are going to encourage the use Christmas trees that are planted in the wrong place, great. If of woodchip as a fuel. we are going to plant up ecologically unimportant unused

Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production) – Expenditure approved 1182 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day arable land, for instance, with willow scrub and so on that fuel, assuming that oil prices drop signifi cantly from where can be used, fi ne, but we need a little bit more meat on the they are now, or indeed other fuel prices? No, there were two public explanation bones of this one, Eaghtyrane. points, weren’t there: there was the point about fuel prices and I am also interested in what is going to happen to the there was a point about whether we had enough supply. fumes from any burning process because we might be carbon With regard to the fi rst point, it is highly unlikely that friendly doing it, but what happens from the actual heating oil and gas prices are going to go signifi cantly lower than process? they are at the moment. We are already at the position where We have also seen what can happen when things go oil and natural gas are signifi cantly more expensive than wrong in our habitats with regard to this, where we are the woodchip product. Woodchip comes in at about 40 per having a Department actively chasing to drain off peat bog cent less than oil and natural gas, and of course LPG is even areas that are of known international – certainly European more expensive, so you would have to see very large drops – signifi cance, in an effort to improve the pathways, so that in oil and gas prices before woodchip would not become motorised vehicles can crash along them and create more as cost-effective as it obviously is. So I do not think that is damage. So the last thing we need to do is to be going down really a problem. Certainly, when you look at predictions for that route with this particular system, Eaghtyrane, where oil and gas prices in the coming years, and certainly in the in one way, yes, we are reducing the carbon footprint but longer term, it is highly unlikely that they are going to drop in another way, we might be actually increasing it as we very much below what they are at the moment; in fact, it is are doing with some of our bizarre footpath reinstatement highly likely that they will be increasing over the course of operations, which no doubt will come back this Court later, the next 10 to 20 years. Eaghtyrane, but just some thoughts for the Minister to As far as the sustainability – and I know my hon. friend for comment on when he does come back to us. Douglas North, Mr Henderson, mentioned this as well – we It is something you would like to support, but I think we are looking at sustainably harvested product. We are looking just need a little more depth to the explanations here. at our commercial plantations, which are the conifers or the Christmas trees, as Mr Henderson, Hon. Member for Douglas The President: Minister to reply. North, referred. We have a clear understanding that we will harvest those in a sustainable way, in a way which does not The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. result in clearfelling and I am quite sure that Members will I would like to thank my colleague in the Department, be happy with the results of that. the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt, for seconding this Also, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk, touched on proposal today. I would also like to thank all the Members the increase, of course, in wood-fuelled boilers in the private who have contributed to today’s debate. I think there are sector and suggested that perhaps we need to improve the some very useful questions that have been raised and I am standards across the Island in terms of the installation of these very happy to endeavour, at least, to provide answers which boilers, and I am sure that that is an area that my colleagues in I hope will be satisfactory. DoLGE are looking into at the moment. Certainly, I do know I am very happy, obviously, to receive the support of my there is an explosion of interest in woodchip, which kind of hon. colleague for Rushen, Mr Watterson. He suggests that implies that the public, at least, are voting with their feet and certainly he supports green energy schemes and encourages saying, ‘We are going for the cheaper fuel of the future.’ other areas of Government to look at this particular fuel, and Mr Callister, another former Member of the Department, indeed was very ebullient in his view that this will provide a was very supportive as well. He claims that this will benefi t signifi cant fuel source in the future. the environment and I would be happy to support that claim. Mr Quirk, a former Member of the Department, welcomes There will be savings to the Department and, indeed, potential the initiative but also explains that he has some concerns. savings for other areas of Government. It is not entirely correct to say that the Scheme that we are He also wants to know about the woodchipping machine being asked to vote for today is purely about the DAFF and its ability to be able to be brought to different areas. headquarters. This system is a district heating system which Yes, it is absolutely the case that other timbers can be used, will cover a number of buildings on the site, including the particularly various bits of trees and things that have been sawmill, the existing forestry headquarters that are out there limbed. I think the suggestion in the paper was that the together with the new headquarters building and other DAFF DoT, potentially, if it had a lot of work to do on trees and buildings on the site, so it is not just about our building. Also, roadsides, could gather up some of the material and use that as far as effi ciencies, he was talking about large slumbering in their boilers. Equally, waste wood could potentially be units. I am not sure whether that is Members following a used, although one of the diffi culties with waste wood is very pleasant meal that we have just had, or perhaps he that it does have to be… all the nails and metal have to be was describing the boiler. I suspect it was the boiler. The removed from the waste wood, so that has been a problem, I way in which the boiler works means that it certainly is not know, from one person… one centre, which uses woodchip a large and slumbering unit. It does have the capacity to boilers at the moment on the Island. work on fairly low heats. I am happy to go through, at the Also, in terms of the ash deposits, now this was a question great lengths, all the ins and outs of how the boiler works as well which Mrs Christian, Hon. Member of Council, and I would certainly be happy to invite the Hon. Member touched on. I had the opportunity to actually visit two offi ce for Onchan to go and visit the site with my offi cers and go blocks that were using this sustainable wood fuelled source through the handbook of the boiler and fully understand all and one of those boilers that we were looking at was wood the issues relating to it. I am personally briefed to the level pellets. I think the amount of ash that wood pellets actually of the policy, rather than knowing the full specifi cs of how produced in the course of the day was the size of a pint glass, the boiler works. so it is relatively small. Woodchip does produce more ash With regard to sustainability, would we need to import because it is less dry, there is more moisture in it, but it is

Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production) – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1183 T126 not a signifi cant amount of ash that is actually produced, in the future are being considered, it is certainly worthy of certainly nowhere near as much as straw burners would consideration of looking at whether woodchip fuel can be produce, so we certainly do not anticipate there being a used and where it can be used, then certainly the economics signifi cant problem there. are absolutely clear; woodchip is considerably more effi cient Also there was mention from Mr Callister, Hon. Member and effective than the alternatives. of Council, of woodchip being used to form biodiesel. Mr Henderson, Hon. Member for Douglas North, Certainly, the Department has had a preliminary investigation mentions the harvesting and I think I have touched on that, into the use of woodchip to produce biogas, but those are but I think I would certainly like to give the reassurance that fuels of the future; they are potential fuels. However, when the policy of the Department is to replace all non-commercial we are talking purely, at this stage, of use of the timber in our plantations that we have. We have identifi ed a number of non- plantations, then clearly we have not got that much timber commercial plantations. The Department’s clear policy there out there so we have to be careful about how bold we are is that we will replace these as they come up the harvesting. going to be in terms of its use. They will be replaced either with the moorland/heathland There is, of course, the potential – and Members will be that the Hon. Member is talking about or, indeed, native aware of the Department’s trial which it is undertaking with and broadleafed planting. So there is no intention of the the DoT at the moment – of willow for woodchip production, Department to diminish our natural habitats; indeed, we are and there is a potential there. Certainly, the trial has been looking at focusing much more intensely on our commercial successful in demonstrating that only one of the varieties of plantations and looking to do everything we can to enhance salix, or willow, that we are growing is actually particularly our natural environment. productive in the environmental conditions we have had in So I think that just to sum up, it is anticipated this project the last three or four months. The other varieties have been will prove to be a turning point in the use of timber as a less successful, it is fair to say. But certainly one variety has sustainable energy on the Isle of Man and prove to be an been particularly good, so that may form a potential fuel in example to other Departments and the private sector. The the future and may form an additional crop for farmers to project will demonstrate the effectiveness of the technology, diversify into, if they choose to, in the future. create a demand and also create a supply of carbon-neutral Mr Gill, my other hon. colleague for Rushen, much sustainable fuel, which is locally produced and, as such, more pessimistic about this, has some doubts about this and is not subject to ferry travel, haulage or fossil fuel price describes himself as the prudent voice of caution. I think fl uctuations. obviously there is a place for caution. I think pessimism The technology relating to the use of so-called biomass though maybe goes a little bit further than caution. It is fuel has also made major advances in central Europe, as regards size and effectiveness of plant. The United Kingdom absolutely clear – anyone who is prepared to do any research is starting to realise the potential of wood-based fuels, but can see – that woodchip is being used across Europe, certainly it would be good for the Isle of Man to be able to show a in the Scandinavian countries, as a very cost-effective, very lead on this issue. effi cient, very environmentally sustainable fuel, and I do not I beg to move. really think that we are in the position of being in some kind of groundbreaking, trailblazing development of woodchip as The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that printed a product. It is clearly being used in Scandinavian countries. at Item 11 on your Order Paper, that Tynwald approves It is not being used signifi cantly in the British Isles at the the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry moment, but we potentially could be leading the way in the incurring expenditure not exceeding £757,000 in respect of British Isles. the development of woodchip production for use as a fuel So, Mrs Christian, Hon. Member of Council, I think I suitable for Government buildings and the Department’s have dealt with her points in relation to ash disposal. District Heating Scheme at St John’s. Hon. Members, those Mr Henderson, of course, asked the questions about the in favour, please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The cost-effectiveness of this. Well, at current oil prices we are ayes have it. looking at a 14-year payback for the Department and that is assuming that oil does not go up. I think most commentators are suggesting oil will go up, so I am not so sure that we have a problem there. Also, in terms of LPG, we are looking at nine Department of Education years for a payback if we are comparing with LPG. Supplementary Vote Mr Gill is endeavouring to remind me that he asked Motion carried about circulation and performance data and of course the Department is fully committed to rigorously ensuring that 12. The Minister for Education to move: we are getting value for money for this. We are very happy to circulate any performance data that we produce because this That Tynwald authorises the Treasury, in respect of the clearly is something that we believe, in the Department, is year ended 31st March 2009, to apply from General worthy of use across Government Departments and the only Revenue surplus receipts totalling £197,898 of the way we are going to persuade Government Departments to Department of Education the sum of £197,698 in payment do that is if we come up with the data to prove it. of excess expenditure. So, again, going back to the Hon. Member for Douglas North, I am not suggesting for a moment that all Government The President: We turn the page to Item 12, and I call on Departments should immediately switch to woodchip fuels; the Minister for Education to move, please. Mrs Craine. that would be cost prohibitive. It would be impossible in many cases because woodchip boilers would not be appropriate for The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, all existing Government buildings. However, where projects Mr President.

Woodchipping and Handling Facility (for fuel production) – Expenditure approved Department of Education Supplementary Vote – Motion carried 1184 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

The Department of Education operated within its net The Department now seeks approval to proceed with the revenue budget for the year after taking into account additional main scheme, the build-out of the new school and associated receipts of £197,698 on its income budgets. The purpose of external works. The Department seeks to close Park Road this motion is to seek authorisation for the application of School and relocate the Park Road intake of years 7 and those receipts in payment of excess expenditure. 8, and year 9 from St Ninian’s Upper School, to a new St I would add that, in recognition of constraints on Ninian’s Lower School at Bemahague. St Ninian’s Upper Government fi nances, the Department met the challenge School would be preserved for years 10 to 13 – that is key set by Treasury to make budget savings. It met almost all stage four and post 16. the costs of nationally agreed pay awards made during The transfer of year 9 from St Ninian’s Upper School to the year and therefore avoided having to seek Treasury the new Bemahague School will enable key stage 3 to be approval for a supplementary vote of approximately £1.3 brought together within a common environment through to million. The Department’s savings and expenditure absorbed the commencement of key stage 4 and provide an effi cient approximately £1.1 million of the £1.3 million, and it now management and teaching environment. The Scheme will also seeks to utilise its additional receipts to meet the balance of relieve the existing pressures on St Ninian’s Upper School £197,698. and Ballakermeen High School and enable an improvement Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my in the teaching environment across the eastern catchment. name. Under the proposal, the new school will have a capacity of 800 places with core facilities sized for 1,100 to aid ease The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. of future extension of teaching facilities. The Scheme will provide excellent modern facilities, with three teaching Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my blocks set over three storeys, located off a glazed street. remarks. The school will include a special unit – which, of course, we do not have at Park Road – which will incorporate a The President: The motion I put to the Court is that hydrotherapy pool suite, for the use of the unit’s students printed at Item 12 on your Order Paper, Members. Those and also those from other primary and secondary units on in favour, please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The the Island. Core facilities provided include a six-court sports ayes have it. hall and changing facilities with direct access for community use, assembly hall, full cooking kitchen and dining facilities, and a lecture theatre. Externally, the site contains excellent sporting facilities, comprising two medium football pitches St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague which will form a cricket oval in summer, a large football Expenditure approved and medium rugby pitch, an all-weather pitch and six tennis courts. A separate planning application to be submitted the 13. The Minister for Education to move: fl oodlighting to the all-weather pitch. There are extensive further hard play areas, comprehensive soft landscaping, a That Tynwald approves of the Department of Education large bicycle shelter, bus drop-off/collection area and car incurring expenditure not exceeding £29,668,698 on the parking. A new footbridge over the A18 TT course will help ‘St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague’ scheme. provide good pedestrian and cycle access to the school. There has been a clear focus throughout the design process [Reference Item No 9 under the heading ‘Education’ on on specifying good quality materials and equipment. For page 7 of the 2009-10 Isle of Man Budget and under the example, the external building shell will be low maintenance Estimates of Capital Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 on with an aluminium standing seam roof, aluminium windows, page 52 and 53 of the 2009-10 Budget] insulated aluminium cladding, render and facing blockwork. The project will be highly energy effi cient and sustainable The President: Item 13: again, Minister for Education, to reduce the impact on the environment and optimise the Mrs Craine, to move, please. Department’s revenue running costs over the life of the new school. The Minister for Education (Mrs Craine): Thank you, Many measures have been incorporated, including a Mr President. deep fl oor ground source heat pump system to provide The Department seeks Tynwald approval for the building underfloor heating to the majority of the ground floor, of the new St Ninian’s Lower School at Bemahague. improved air tightness, improved thermal insulation, solar At last December’s Tynwald sitting, the Department hot water heating to provide domestic hot water to the sports gained approval to proceed with the enabling phase to remove hall change area, and comprehensive lighting control, with the site hedgerows and undertake off-site works comprising occupancy detection and lighting level control, depending the new traffic signals on Hillberry Road and junction on the ambient light levels. improvement works on Heywood Drive. Subject to Tynwald approval, the new school construction At that time, it was confi rmed that the Park Road facilities is programmed for completion by July 2012 to enable are no longer deemed acceptable as a learning environment operation from the start of the 2012-13 academic year, in on the 21st century. The school is over capacity and of September 2012. Early completion of the all-weather pitch insuffi cient area. The nature of the existing building and and tennis courts has been agreed to enable utilisation by the site constraints mean that it is neither cost effective eastern schools and the community whilst the main school nor possible to fully address these issues. The Department construction work continues. These facilities, together with therefore wishes to close the site and transfer the school to temporary changing provision, should be available from a new facility at Bemahague. spring 2011.

Department of Education Supplementary Vote – Motion carried St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1185 T126

The scheme proposed for approval is based on the planning him for this. It was with his support, which then meant the approval obtained in 2005 and includes for a six-court sports Government’s support, that this long and overdue project hall. It is recognised that, if it can be accommodated, that a should get ahead, and I thank him for that. larger eight-badminton-court-sized hall would be preferable, I also would like to thank the Minister for the sterling to provide better facilities for the community and the school. work that she has done in this, because she has kept her eye Dialogue is currently progressing with the Department on the ball all the way along. It was a number of years ago of Tourism and Leisure and Treasury over the business that I walked the site with the Minister, showed her exactly case for providing an enlarged hall. Subject to Treasury what the problems were, and gave her a greater understanding concurrence and planning approval, it is the Department’s of it from a constituency point of view. Of course, that took current intention to return to Tynwald in November 2009 for Onchan into account as well. approval to proceed with the enlarged sports hall scheme. Further grateful thanks I would like to give are principally Approval to proceed at that time will enable this change to to Departmental offi cers, Richard Collister and the Financial be accommodated without impact on the overall construction Director Ashley Halsall, because they have had to remodel programme and completion date. this to suit the Treasury’s wishes on I do not know how many Following second-stage tender negotiations, the occasions, and of course they have managed, at a fi nal time Department proposes to enter into a contract with the now, to arrive at an acceptable stage, albeit there is a further partnering contractor, Auldyn Construction Ltd, in the sum amendment that the Minister has set out now that will mean of £26,570,998, with the works planned to commence on a slight amount of further fi nancial funding to come later on 17th August 2009 for completion by 6th July 2012. Other this year, as the Minister has set out. So I welcome that, but development costs for the enabling works – professional what I also welcome there is the foresight that they can get fees, building control fees, site investigations, insurances, on with the job now, subject to this going through, but also contract guarantee bond, site supervision, furniture, fi ttings, that further amendment to the project can go ahead with equipment and client contingency – total £6,224,300. The the further funding later, rather than it be held up again for total cost of the proposed development is £32,795,298 and more months. this sum is within the approved Pink Book budget provision Finally, this campaign has been going on, with the support of £32,795,300, as included on pages 52 and 53 of the Isle of of my hon. colleague, Mr Henderson, for many, many years. Man Government Budget 2009-10. Tynwald has approved North Douglas has carried this forward. Those offi cers in this pre-contract and enabling expenditure of £3,126,600 and Court know the amount of work that has gone on behind the the Department therefore seeks approval to expenditure scenes. It is a very pleasing and happy day, not for Members of £29,668,698. In addition to loan charges, it is estimated of this Court but for children belonging to North Douglas that there will be an additional annual revenue cost of and also to Onchan, and possibly Laxey, who will use this £384,700. school, but principally, of course, those who go to St Ninian’s Of this, the sum of £231,700 is in respect of staffi ng for Lower School, which of course will be based in the future the new special needs unit. A separate bid will be progressed at Bemahague. So thanks indeed to all involved and I thank by the Department under the 2012-13 process in advance of the Minister once again. the school opening. The balance of £153,000 is in respect Thank you, sir. of grounds and additional cleaning staff, which we will endeavour to fund from within our existing resources, and The President: Mr Crookall. additional energy costs, additional rates, minor repairs and cleaning materials. Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. With this proposal, we wish to replace the antiquated I will be brief, but I have no problem at all in supporting crowded facilities at Park Road with excellent modern, this. I think it is very commendable, in this day and age, that 21st-century facilities at Bemahague, reduce rolls and enable we are still able to do this rather than sitting back and saving improvement in facilities at St Ninian’s Upper School and pennies for another day. As Mr Houghton, the Hon. Member Ballakermeen, provide for future expansion of capacity in who has just resumed his seat, has said, we have been waiting the east and provide excellent community facilities for the a long time for this and it is overdue and I congratulate the area. Minister on bringing it forward. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my One thing I have just picked up on reading the brief for name. this and I did not pick it up when we had the briefi ng upstairs a few months ago with regard to the hydrotherapy pool The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. suite in the Special Needs Unit, I do not know whether it is something that has just been added in in the last few months Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. since then and I assume this… the ways it sounds, it is just I am very happy to second this motion. This is a day of for the school. I hope the Department of Education will work celebration. It has been a long, long time coming has this in conjunction with the DHSS and this will be made available school, and with the support of Hon. Members today it will to all sorts of groups that would benefi t from the use of the go ahead. hydrotherapy pool and I would welcome the Minister to On this day of celebration, Mr President, I would like to expand on that if she could please, sir. thank fi rst the Hon. Chief Minister for helping to get this out of the long grass, because this project has kept on going on. The President: Mr Speaker. It has a history of going in and out of the long grass. I did put a motion down in Tynwald last year to move this forward. The Speaker: Mr President, I think Tynwald Court and I had discussions with the Hon. Chief Minister, who gave the Department can be very proud of today that, by any me his word and he carried out his word, and I congratulate measure, a very signifi cant investment in education and

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved 1186 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day the children and young people of the Isle of Man is being referred to this – worked hard and faced frustrations to made, and preserving a very proud record in the Isle of Man procure this scheme. I would like to thank them for their of Government investment in education, even from the efforts over the years, but particular thanks to my colleague, days when such investment was very diffi cult fi nancially Minister Craine, the present incumbent who has fi nally got to undertake. us to where we are today. Certain Members have referred to this Scheme taking Thank you, Mr President. very many years to come to fruition. In fact, the notion of a sixth secondary school in the Isle of Man was in the The President: Mr Quayle, Hon. Member. programmer, or certainly being talked about, in the late Victor Kneale’s time as Minister for Education, and I well Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. remember, not having… It is now fi ve years exactly since I would like to start off by saying that I fully recognise I left the Department of Education, but I well remember the need for this new school and that case has been more the Scheme as it then was, not so very different in terms than adequately put forward by the Minister and supported of the actual building as it is today, but what was different by various Members. I think the Hon. Member for North then and why it did not progress then was that the fi gures Douglas put his fi nger on the pulse though in following for population growth and school population growth did up the comments from the Minister in terms of the sports not sustain the economic case. I remember somewhat facilities. I think Hon. Members will recognise the need uncomfortable meetings at Treasury where the Department for better indoor community sports facilities for the eastern was still genuinely arguing the long-term case for a sixth area, and whilst the two halls at the National Sports Centre secondary school in the Island, economically that not being are superb, they cannot possibly meet the total demand, supportable, and therefore, subsequent to that – and under especially having lost both the old hall at Summerland and Minister Anderson I think it would have certainly started – a the Mount Murray sports hall from the overall mix. So we reappraisal of the Scheme as replacement facilities for Park clearly have this opportunity existing to address the current Road, the lower St Ninian’s, was very wisely examined. shortfall by making the sports facilities at the new school at That, of course, opened up all sorts of new possibilities for Bemahague suitable for community use as well as for school delivering new up-to-date building facilities in the Island, use. It is, in my view, crucial that we move towards the sorely needed, but on the basis of a replacement for part of an provision of the eight badminton courts which will provide existing secondary school, and I think that was a very good a range of mixed facilities for two fi ve-a-side or variation outcome to have started at that time, and we have reached netball/basketball courts. So we have this opportunity, as the the stage today where I am pleased to see that provision has Minister has explained, to come back. We will fully support indeed been made with an eye to the future that the capacity the Department of Education in dialogue with the Treasury to of 800 places has the potential, if population growth resumes assist wherever possible, but we do have an opportunity. We its upward trend, for there to be expansion to core facilities are not building schools very often – we really have to grab for 1,100 at some time. There then might indeed be the sixth the opportunity to ensure that the facilities provided are going secondary school, but at this point in time it is the fi fth-and- to be something that we can be proud of, that the community a-half, I suppose – fi ve-and-a-half – secondary school. So for the area will be proud of and, more realistically, will be well done, Minister, and the Department. able to have the best optimum use of the facilities for the benefi t of the people living in that area. So with that, Minister The President: Mr Earnshaw, Hon. Member. and Members, I will certainly give this my full support and hope that we can reach the solution as has been suggested Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. by the Minister earlier. I will be brief, but I rise to my feet to support this and to Thank you. echo a lot of the comments of my friend the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Houghton. I suppose the expression The President: Hon. Member Mr Gill. today is ‘at last’ – it is at long last, because – other Members have referred to this – it has been, as far as I recall, at least Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. 20 years since the secondary school in Onchan was fi rst I will be supporting this. I will not be supporting it on the mooted. I am very pleased, however, to fi nally be able to basis that it is a fi ve and a half secondary school. It is a fi fth vote on this project. As you would expect, it is a yes with secondary school which is being relocated and we should both hands, in my case. not lose sight, although I have to congratulate Treasury on So this is a major scheme and a real boost for the their wisdom of seeing that the projected fi gures for school secondary education in the east of the Island. Park Road is populations were completely way off over the years and a school which has served generations of schoolchildren in at least that had been refl ected into this location and this the Isle of Man, and served them well, but it no longer ticks design. the right boxes and we must look to the future. Having said that, and I appreciate the comments that the It is also a major boost for Onchan, with the sporting Minister made in describing the reduction of the sports hall facilities which will be available, and the wise location in facility from eight courts to six, I did not fully understand the midst of a large area of domestic property which houses the reasoning behind that and for the Tourism Minister to say a great many families with children of secondary school age this is a great success… frankly, he has lost quarter of the – I am talking about Birch Hill, Ballachurry, Governor’s Hill, facilities he should have be pushing for. So it is actually not which is in our neighbouring constituency, as well as many a great success, it is a step forward but not the step forward other surrounding areas. So I think it fi ts the bill very well. it should have been and I am at a loss – and I look to be It is very appropriately located. comforted – that bringing an additional amount forward to Previous Ministers of Education have – Mr Speaker vary a scheme, once it has already been moved, is somehow

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1187 T126 more cost-effective than getting it right fi rst. When we say nice little wind turbine would have helped out there for the getting it right, we know that the demand for use of school power source. facilities is fantastic and I know the Minister for Education And closing – just for the Minister too – the traffi c lights is very determined to try and facilitate that wherever possible are now in. Do not forget there is a bus stop in between the and to try and unlock the logjams which are causing that traffi c lights which needs to be moved. failure… to utilise our services across our communities but the reality is that the indoor sports facility did go from eight The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. to six and that is a great shame. I cannot see the logic of saying, ‘but we will come back and vary it and add to that at Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. a later date’. Really, if the case stacks up, we should be doing I am very pleased to see our school here this afternoon it now and I would ask the Minister if she could explain why (Three Members: Onchan’s school!) in the fi nal throes of that is not the case. being organised and voted upon. It is excellent to see and, as I did speak to the director – and I make no criticism of far as I am concerned, long, long overdue. I certainly know any of the Education Department offi cers – and the phrase, the Minister has tried her very best with this and it is not the euphemistic phrase, that was employed to me was it was that long ago I was working alongside her in trying to push ‘a value engineering reduction’. I found that a very false this forward and trying to get through some very diffi cult economy, if it is a value of reduction and I do not see the issues that were posed to us from various quarters. Indeed, wisdom of it. I hope that the Minister, without taking anything on my fi rst tour of Education, Eaghtyrane, 10 years ago, away from… As Mr Houghton, Member for Douglas North, this school was being planned then, so you can see there says, ‘a great day for investment in children and young is, as illustrated by the Speaker, quite a tortuous route. But people into the future’. That is entirely to be applauded and I would not be too fooled, Eaghtyrane and Hon. Members, I do not want to be the voice of doom and gloom but why about the numbers-game argument. That was used against us has there been 25 per cent cut in a service that we know, we from time to time, but I can assure you, Eaghtyrane, within absolutely know, will be utilised on a day-in, day-out basis time, as with anything else, the school may well ultimately, around the year? Perhaps the Minister would advise that but in years down the line, be too small. other than that I commend her for bringing this scheme as Having said that, the business argument for this new it stands before us now, rather than previous schemes – let school is quite easy to see. We do not need to go to Economic us not mix the two together – before us and I will certainly Affairs. You stand in Park Road School and see the school for be supporting it. what it really is: a Victorian building that is past its sell-by date by about 30 or 40 years, jammed full, past Health and The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. Safety capacity. We have got the same with Ballakermeen School: well over its accepted capacity. The prima facie Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. business case is straightforward common sense. St Ninian’s I do rise to welcome this opportunity to support this is near enough the same: up to nearly capacity. So it is starting project which, since coming to the Court in 2006 – this is to become quite urgent that we have a new school built, one of the goals, I think, for the Onchan Members to try and Eaghtyrane, and luckily for us, we have got concurrence from achieve – it has had a chequered past and now the grass has the Treasury and we have got the plans here this afternoon been cut and we are going along with the project. The ground for us. Certainly I would like to thank the staff involved too works have started, the contractor is up there, the compounds in pushing this and those from former years too who have are ready. The construction industry is ready, and that is the tried to keep this alive and energised through this tortuous other issue here today, that this will be gratefully received process that the school has gone. Certainly, it is wonderful by the construction industry round the Island, to retain the to see that we can still pull off a project like this in this skills for when we do climb out of any recession that we are current climate. in – and I do not believe we are actually in one. This particular school is great, because anybody who has The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member. been round Park Road – and it is a long time since I have been there, but I had a little sneak from the outside – there were no Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. facilities there at all. It was a tarmacked playground – The scheme for a new school was fi rst proposed, I believe, in 1984, when Betty Hanson was Chairman of the Board of Mr Braidwood: It’s for girls! Education, and was subsequently axed by the late Victor Kneale, and the QE2 School was built in its place. Mr Quirk: Yes, it was for girls! That was for a start! Twenty-fi ve years, a long time. We are replacing Park Maybe I shouldn’t have been there! Road School, which is 111 years old, but Mr Speaker was This will be a great benefi t not only to Onchan, because it quite right – the demographics did not add up to the time a is in Onchan; it will be a benefi t to the Island itself. The nice few years ago. However – little bits about it are that we may have a bridge going over to North Douglas, but there will be a toll bridge on top! Mr Henderson: A load of rubbish, that! The other issues too – and I congratulate the Minister to take in those initiatives, without any pushing, without any Mr Braidwood: The Hon. Member for Douglas North shoving from DoLGE – ground source heat – excellent! said that was rubbish, but they did not stack up, Mr President, Proven technology. Solar water heating – I think that is a fi rst, and in actual fact Treasury had a tour round Park Road actually, for a municipal building or a big public building. School with the Minister for Education. I know myself that So that is great. The only slight little thing, if Treasury and the facilities at Park Road are not suitable for a modern my hon. friend for Ramsey, Mr Bell, could afford it – a school, and that is why, when the Department of Education

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved 1188 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day came forward and it came in front of Treasury, we gave we borrowed the money then, I think it was over a 30-year concurrence. However, one of the reasons – and this may period. We have paid it off; it has dropped off the scale. The answer Mr Gill’s point – is that Treasury also asked the same will happen to this. It is an investment now for young Department of Education to look at the sports hall facilities, people. I think we cannot invest enough in young people in conjunction with the Department of Tourism and Leisure, because if we wish to safeguard our future we have got to to increase to eight because of the loss we have suffered do it there. because of Summerland, and one of the reasons that we Then I come to what I would call the twiddly bits. The wanted this to go ahead is because we would have missed the hydrotherapy pool might be seen by some as a luxury that start date. It would have been October if we had had a review can be put off. The Minister throughout has always insisted of the plans, and it would have then come to Tynwald… It that schools are part of the community, and this is, if you like, would have come to Treasury. It would have been October looking after the less advantageous amongst us in society. Tynwald we would have been looking at this construction, You have heard the Minister say that it will be used by other which would have put back the whole of the school opening schools. I am sure it will be used by the community. The in September 2012 to probably September 2013. That is why sporting facilities – and it has already been referred to by Mr I believe the Minister for Education has come forward today Quirk – the existing school has got virtually zero sporting with the plans and hopefully will come back in October for facilities. They must think they are going to die and go to approval by this Hon. Court for the additional money for the heaven when they go to Onchan and have a couple of football additional courts. pitches, a cricket pitch, an all-weather pitch, fl oodlights – you The facilities, I think, in this new school will be the envy name it, they are going to get it! And they richly deserve it. of all the other secondary schools throughout the Island. As They have waited long enough. But also the community will we can see, there has been an increase in costs because, in use that. Park Road… and here we have paid a lot of tribute the last few years, regulations have changed. It is tighter. to various people – our staff, the fi nance offi cer, our Works There is going to be better insulation, as has been touched Division, the Minister – who, I must confess, has never, on, with the heat exchange. Also, hopefully… I saw, when ever taken her eye off the rabbit. Part of the practicalities the Minister for DAFF was up on the woodchipping, that the of making sure that this scheme is here and progressed: her QE2 School is looking for a woodchip boiler. I know that name was ‘achievables’ and ‘progress’. She has achieved Treasury have asked the Department to look to see if there and she has progressed. would be a possibility of a woodchip boiler in this new school I also then have to say to you that in this school, we are as well, Mr President. just saying goodbye at the end of this term to George Quayle, I hope all Members of this Hon. Court will support the who has steered this ship – his school – with dignity and motion. we hand over to a new man who will be taking that into the future, and will, if you like, take it into the new era which The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. this school will herald. Mr Houghton, the Hon. Member, for North Douglas Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. said, in seconding this, this was a day for rejoicing and Well, you would expect me to support it, having been on congratulations, yes. But it is one for rejoicing. I believe we the Department for the last few years. I want to start off by may be spending £70 million on sewerage and all the rest saying how delighted I am this afternoon that I have not heard of it – not a penny will be invested better than the money a single Member query the cost. Cost is not the important in this school. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I am delighted this thing, although it is a massive sum of money. It is a massive Court has not queried or argued over the pennies – millions sum of money, but if we want the best for our children, and the of pennies though it may be – because I do believe it is the best environment for them to learn and the best environment right school for the right place and our young people deserve for the teachers to teach, and for the support staff that goes it. Support it unanimously. with that, then we have to provide the best facilities. That is a simple premise and were are doing just that. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. I can remember… I am sorry, you are going to have to suffer this for just a couple of minutes. My belief is that Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, whilst I have a lot of time buildings do not make schools; it is the teachers that make for the speaker who has just resumed his seat, I think it is good schools. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Castle Rushen High important… the cost is important. There is a million pounds’ School, which the President and I went to, was a converted worth of revenue commitment that is going to be put in by RAF army camp, and it was just that, very little added to it. this proposal here today and I think it is important. What I do The sports hall, by the way, acted as the assembly hall and not want to see, at a later day, is that we will see one of our it is still in action today. How many years ago was that, Mr non-achievements of not allowing them to follow the UK, President? Nineteen fourty-eight or something, so we got as far as the grand scheme will not end up being affected value for money out of that. The south being the unpushing because of the likes of this proposal here today. sort of group that we are, it will be our turn somewhere down Whilst it is in my constituency, I think that it is important the line. (Mr Watterson: Next!) that we do remember that it will be a great benefi t as far as I have been round the Island, privileged to look at some North Douglas is concerned, an area which has got a number of the schools. The wonderful extension that this Department of problems with being so densely developed and the issues has given to Ramsey School – a credit and the envy of many, of people living in high private-sector rental accommodation. not just on the Isle of Man but from adjacent islands. Peel I think that this is a good investment, as far as the sports School, 30 years old, opened in Millennium year. Thirty facilities are concerned and I am disappointed that we have years! We have just spent a few million pounds on enclosing not had the sports facilities done a lot earlier, as a two-phase and making it better. By the way, the cost element… When development. If we could have had a bit of common sense,

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1189 T126 maybe we would be talking today of only the issue of the can get changes on these massive capital schemes. At the school itself. moment with these building fi rms, if they do not employ What I would like the Shirveishagh Ynsee to do – I think apprentices, they are at a fi nancial benefi t and it makes it is important – is that if she could have some calculation it easier for them to be able to put lower tenders in. I do as far as the sort of revenue costs, as far as the children think that with these big schemes that it should be, in the being accommodated in the Park Road School and what the appraisal, saying that the issue of the amount apprentices revenue costs are going to be for each child as far as the new in any tendering procedure from building fi rms should be school is concerned because what I am concerned about is some sort of fi nancial calculation. If the Department would that whilst this should be… This is a debt of honour that consider this as one of the ones to lead the way, this is the should be addressed and the Hon. Member for East Douglas way to get apprenticeship opportunities, especially with the is wrong, it was not about Peel’s thing… The situation… it growing problem of what we do with kids who come out of was a battle between town and country by the then Minister school at 16 with little or no education. of Education, who had forgotten that there was no more battle between town and country, because as a Member of the Board The President: Mr Waft, Hon. Members. of Education in 1982, we were extremely disappointed with the actions of the then chairman and with the £½ million Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. worth of professional fees that were wasted. It must have I would just like to say a word about Mr Kneale at the been like a lottery win, prematurely, as there was no lottery time, he was a victim of circumstance to a degree because in those days for the architects. the demographics did not actually stack up. That was only I do hope that the Shirveishagh can give us a breakdown found out after the plans had been gone through. However, of the percentage costs as far as professional fees, as far as we progressed through different Ministers over the years this proposal today. and Dr Mann, I thought we had hopes with, but he said no The other thing that I would like to see is the issue of the way could we have a secondary school on that site: we have two-phase development. Is it small enough to maximise the looked at it all ways and we cannot do it. economic benefi t as far as the building industry is concerned, I know we progressed a bit further and temptations or will we end up having to take a fi rm on from off the were there to do it or not do it and at least this Minister has Island in order to develop this development, and so making a grasped the nettle and gone ahead with it and we are all, I situation where we will not maximise the economic situation think delighted with the result. as far as benefi t for the people? What I would say to her at this stage is to make sure that I think it is great today that we are getting these sports the teachers are fully involved in the planning stage and the facilities. This is something that is important for Onchan. I fi nishing stage. I know when we built the hospital, there would like to know whether the Shirveishagh has resolved was nothing worse than going through there and the nurses the issues of the problems that were in the initial design as were saying if only they had done that or if only they had far as the bottleneck and the problems of congestion which done this, they would have saved our feet walking up and have been expressed on numerous occasions. down these corridors between coronary care and the other Today is a day of righting a wrong which should never units, but these sort of things are not always found out until have happened in the fi rst place, and the school should have the last minute. been built all those years ago. I am happy to support it, but I would say that when the… I was part of the committee I do think it is important that we do realise that, when we that was looking at the prison and that situation is similar to look at these things, the issue of added revenue and liabilities the effect that you have to go and make sure that the design have got to be paid for, and the problem is if we are going team are actually on the ball and they have got their targets to do these things we must make sure that that is taken into and they are meeting the targets and somebody needs to be account. there, as in the old days in the engineering factories, what Eaghtyrane, I think that the people of Onchan and North they called a project chaser and if anybody was slacking, they Douglas will appreciate this, but I do think that it will be would certainly be told where they are going and where they interesting to see the likes of the professional fees. It will be are going wrong. So I hope we are going to get over that. The very interesting to see what has been cut out. Obviously, when teachers will have their views, I am sure, on the school and the original development was there there was no Heywood the project, but I am sure everybody will realise that, as has Park and the school development would have been a far been said, the cramped conditions at the two schools and the bigger site. What plans have been made in order that we do overspills and we are taking some of each. not end up with a landlock situation as far as this school is The Minister, when she did read from her script said concerned? Are there any contingency plans as far as that is that they were going from Park Road School to Bemahague concerned? I think it is important that, like the Hon. Member School. That is the fi rst time I have heard her say Bemahague of the Council talked about 60 years ago and Castle Rushen School, but as she has now said it, I presume it will be School, we must make sure that we design for the future, and Bemahague School. (Interjection) I would just like to I think it is important that the Hon. Member of Council who reiterate the thoughts of the Commissioners and certainly talked about it was not buildings that are important, it is the people in the Onchan area, that is what they are going to call staff, the commitment of the staff, and I believe that what we the school, whether or not, so I only hope the Department must make sure is we must not allow a situation where we goes along with it and I wish it every success for the future, get carried away with buildings over the making sure that especially with the special needs part of it. I know inclusion the revenue costs are there so that we can fund good staffi ng is being brought about throughout the Island with regard to levels for teaching. those with special needs, and the Department of Education I also would like the Shirveishagh Ynsee, as a person should be very proud of their history with that. They have got who is keen on education and training, to see whether we around all the problems with regard to perhaps the teachers’

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved 1190 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day involvement with those with special needs. They have all Court and I just am grateful that although this has been a accepted it wholeheartedly and it benefi ts the families and long time coming, that we are now actually able to make the the children especially. provision, as he says, with an eye to the future. So I wish her well with the school and all the people of Mr Earnshaw welcomed the Onchan sporting facilities. Onchan do so as well, sir. I think that in fact there will… as Mr Malarkey said, we are not just looking at Onchan community using this, but the The President: Mr Malarkey. entire Island community using these facilities and I am sure they will be put to good use. Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. Again, from the Minister, Martyn Quayle, I would like to I was not actually going to stand and talk on this subject. thank him for his support and, in fact, we do have recognition I am very supportive of the school, but… (Interjections) (A of the community use of what will be superb facilities. Member: Vote!) It will be extremely quick, I can reassure Mr Gill was concerned that this school will have six Members. badminton courts in its sports hall. When this Scheme Why I rise to my feet, sir, is I hear all these Douglas North came forward fi rst of all, Mr President, you will recall that Members and these Onchan Members going on about this planning had actually been granted on what was essentially Onchan and northern children’s school. My understanding a set framework. Within that set framework it could only is that Douglas children have a choice of both Ballakermeen accommodate six badminton courts. That is why, as has and St Ninian’s at the moment, and I would certainly hope been said here this evening, it has been necessary for us to that that was going to continue; that this is not a school for be able to go with the Scheme that we have if we are going North Douglas (A Member: Hear, hear.) or Onchan. It is to be able to get the school open for September 2012 and I a school for the Isle of Man and I hope it carries on being welcome the opportunity of being able to expand the facility that way. that we have to take in a further two courts. I would just say that this is still an excellent provision and any secondary A Member: Hear, hear. school, normally, would have within its sports hall a facility of four courts and so, as it stands today, it is still a 50 per Mr Houghton: We know that. cent improvement on other schools. Mr Quirk commented about the construction industry The President: Minister to reply. I do not know that and the need to keep this work out there for our builders anybody has spoken against you, Minister. and various people involved with the construction industry and, indeed, that is quite right. The ground source heat pump The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. and the solar water heating are items that we can be very I think, fi rst of all, I would like to record my thanks to my proud of but thankfully the Department has actually had seconder, Mr Houghton. It is a few years since we did go up some experience now of installations of this type, as was and have a look at the site and it was indeed enlightening to witnessed with the development of Scoill Ree Gorree, so we get a grasp of the actual area itself. are pleased that that has been able to be incorporated here I would also like to pay tribute to my predecessors, the and, yes, I am sure that the offi cers have a note that the bus Ministers who have had this project before them in one form stop needs to be moved. or another, because what we see today is a very different As Mr Henderson said, the numbers of the school is not beast from what we all envisaged when it was fi rst mooted, an issue at this time. What we are doing is we are replacing and I know that it has been before many Ministers and I feel Park Road School, which is beyond its sell-by date. The privileged that, I hope, we will be able to progress it today. children who are accommodated there are kept in a very My Department Members have been enormously constrained area and they do not have a special needs unit, supportive, and in that I will encompass Mr Henderson, they do not have suffi cient playing area, and all of those extra recently departed (Laughter) but without whom… His facilities that we take for granted in some of our schools will assistance, during his time on the Department, in this project be a real bonus to the teaching practice that will be able to has been invaluable. As Members are probably aware, this be carried out. has been subject to a considerable amount of amendment to Indeed, Mr Braidwood said that this was fi rst mooted in the original project, and as such it has created an enormous 1984 and that Park Road does need replacing. I thank him for amount of work since we were last here in December. his comments that, if we delayed the project now, it would If I could move on, I would just like to comment on Mr in fact set the whole programme back on the school and we Crookall’s query about the hydrotherapy suite. Indeed, we would effectively lose a year. I would just say that we are are to have a hydrotherapy suite in the school and it will going to return, hopefully, by November with the additional primarily be for the use of special-needs young children, planning requirements for the extended hall. but it will also be used by primary schools outside of this He mentioned about whether we would be able to one to come in and make use of it. It is the long-term aim of incorporate a woodchip boiler, Mr President, and I can tell the Department that in fact we should have a hydrotherapy the Hon. Member and the Court that the team have considered pool at each of our secondary schools. If you care to look at this option. However, given the constraint that we have of the timetabling for the Glencrutchery school swimming pool trying to work within the existing planning approval and the that we have, it is in constant use and is an invaluable facility location of the plant room at lower ground level, it is not for the community, so I anticipate that this will get equal use suitable to be able to use a woodchip boiler in this Scheme and certainly it is our intention that there should be use by because of the amount of area that is needed for the biomass the public wherever that can be facilitated. boilers and woodchip storage to be able to be accommodated. Mr Speaker referred to the investment that is being made However, we are pleased, of course, that we are able to here today. Indeed, it is a very large sum to have before the introduce these other facilities, such as the ground source heat

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1191 T126 pump and the solar heating, so that, we hope, will compensate it is replacing Park Road and that was St Ninian’s Lower for the loss of the woodchip boiler. School, Park Road, but time will tell. I thank Mr Lowey for paying tribute to the headteacher of I would again repeat the fact that, yes, this is a replacement St Ninian’s, Mr George Quayle. He has watched this project for Park Road. Park Road, at the present time, as Mr Malarkey come and go, and fi nally at least we, I hope, will be able to pointed out, serves all the children of Douglas, in addition give it the support of this Court today before he goes. to Ballakermeen and we would hope that that is a situation I do think that it is interesting that it has taken until now that can continue. to make this investment in Douglas, which is the capital of With that, Mr President, I would just like to thank my the Isle of Man and the place that people turn to for so many offi cers who are here this afternoon (A Member: Hear, hear.) other things, and yet the educational provision that we have Mr Richard Collister and Mr Ashley Halsall, without whom been able to make has not really been up to the mark. I do not believe that we would be here today. The pressure Mr Karran is concerned about the cost of the project and has been on them to a very high degree to get this Scheme he would hope that the loan charges and so on that we will before us by the deadline of July. I would also like to pay have to bear will not have an effect on our student awards tribute to the Treasury offi cers who have worked so well system that we have at the moment. It is a very generous with our own team. system that we have. I would certainly hope not to, sir, and With that, Mr President, I beg to move the motion I would suggest that it will be other infl uences that bring to standing in my name. bear on that, if any, in the future. He referred to the revenue costs of the school, and The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put I have those here. The Department forecasts an annual to the Court is printed at Item 13, that Tynwald approves revenue requirement increasing from £198,300 to £369,700. of the Department of Education incurring expenditure not However, within that, the calculation is for the special needs exceeding £29,668,698 on the ‘St Ninian’s Lower School, unit, which is over and above what we have at Park Road at Bemahague’ Scheme. Hon. Members, those in favour, please the present time, so that will be coming forward nearer the say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. time of the completion of the project, but discounting the fi gures needed for the special needs unit, the total annual revenue implication will be £145,800. With the breakdown of professional fees, they have Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla been agreed at a percentage level as the normal rate, but Projects 1 and 2 environmental improvement works I can tell the Hon. Member that the professional fees and Expenditure approved disbursements are going to be £2 million. Within that, I have to say once again that we have had signifi cant design works 14. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment in changing this Scheme from an 1,100 secondary school to move: to an 800-capacity lower school. It has virtually had to be redesigned from the word go. That Tynwald:- The building fi rm is local and uses local men. It is Auldyn (1) approves the Department of Local Government and Construction and they have built schools for us in Ramsey, the Environment incurring expenditure not exceeding so they are well accustomed to the standards and the style £2,795,000 for works at Clagh Vane comprising: that we require. (a) environmental improvement works to Cobbold Place, I am not clear, Mr President, what the Member was talking Quine’s Close, Barrule Drive, Balthane Square and about… a bottleneck. I presume he means by that to do with Crossag Close, traffi c, but I did not quite catch it when he was talking about (b) external refurbishment and internal alterations linked that, but maybe he would let me know what that was later. to the environmental improvement works at Crossag Certainly, the traffi c lights are there and will be in use before Close; the development starts on 17th August. (2) authorises the Treasury to spend out of the Capital With regard to contingency plans, there is the facility to Transactions Account during the fi nancial year ending have another block built on this school and so there is that 31st March 2010 a sum not exceeding £1,000,000; capacity for future increased numbers in the future. I take his £1,730,000 during the fi nancial year ending 31st March comment that if we could try and ensure that apprenticeships 2011, and £65,000 during the fi nancial year ending 31st are created when we take on these big capital programmes, March 2012; then that would possibly have benefi ts to all parties and I (3) approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding thank him for that suggestion. £2,795,000 being made by Government, such borrowings Certainly, the Hon. Member, Mr Waft, refers there that to be repaid within a period of 30 years; and we should be able to include teachers in the planning process (4) approves the transfer of £2,795,000 from the Housing and as far as we can, we certainly will. As I say, what we have Reserve Fund to the Capital Transaction Account during here is a framework that has been set, but certainly within the year ending 31st March 2010. the design of the classrooms and so on, we have always been able to include the teaching staff of the schools in that part [Ref: Item No. 26 under the heading ‘Local Government the development. I note that he welcoming the special needs & Environment’ on page 9 of the Isle of Man Budget provision that is going to be made. 2009-10 and as included in the Estimates of Capital With reference to the name, I am sure that people will call Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 on page 56 of the Isle of it whatever they choose, and it probably will be Bemahague Man Budget 2009-10] but, for our purposes, we are bringing this Scheme forward as St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague, because, of course, The President: That takes us on to Item 14 and I call on

St Ninian’s Lower School, Bemahague – Expenditure approved Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 1 and 2 environmental improvement works – Expenditure approved 1192 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day the Minister for Local Government and the Environment, The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member for Malew Mr Shimmin, to move, please. and Santon.

The Minister for Local Government and the Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to second. This is the fi rst major investment Hon. Members may be aware that my Department has in the estate for many years. I am glad that the Minister has been working to bring forward a package of environmental mentioned the Architectural Police Liaison Offi cer. Some of works for the Clagh Vane estate in Ballasalla, as part of the tenants had voiced concern about railings and I am glad redevelopment and improvement works on the estate and that the Department has listened to some of the concerns and the adjoining Crossag Farm site. The works will greatly will deal with them appropriately. improve for tenants the external environment of the parts of the estate built in the 1960s and 1970s, as well as addressing The President: Mr Cretney, Hon. Member. issues such as outdated and underprovided car-parking provision, boundary treatments, provision of surface water Mr Cretney: I would like to get to my feet to welcome drainage, landscaping, streetlighting etc. The works will also this proposal before Hon. Members today. I do believe that address some historical issues associated with the defi nition this, and other such works around the Island at this time in of public and private space to some areas of the estate and particular, not only are benefi ting the tenants in this instance, will particularly help to create a greater sense of security for but hopefully, if we come forward with further housing some older residents living in bungalows. developments, they can assist people currently on the housing In the Crossag Close area of the estate, additional lists and, at the same time, importantly, assist the construction upgrading and infrastructure works will also be implemented sector at a time when it is most needed. (Several Members: to existing dwellings, in order to bring these up to our current Hear, hear.) I am very supportive of this. standards. The works will include asbestos removal, new soffi t fascias and rainwater goods, rendering repairs and The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. external decoration, roofing works, new rear boundary fences etc. An old-style open-air electrical substation will Mr Lowey: I will not be voting against this, and that is be removed for Health and Safety reasons from its current the best news the Minister can have, I think, from me. I do not location within the Close, and a new substation constructed share the general joy with the plans which they are doing. to serve both the Clagh Vane estate and future development First of all, I would like to pay tribute to the offi cers of at Crossag Farm. It will be constructed on adjacent land. the Department, and the Minister kindly arranged for them to The works will also provide safer pedestrian access to 25 come with us round the Clagh Vane estate. Remember, this is dwellings, through the removal of an existing underutilised me. I was there in 1945 and I have rarely left it, really. Barrule footpath and the reorientation of main entrance doors. As a Drive was mentioned: that is where I lived for years. result of this, usable private rear gardens will also be created My criticism of… I notice in the Report, and the Minister for 25 households. says it is: Environmental works carried out at Crossag Close will also help to transform the external areas around these ‘(a) environmental improvement works…’ dwellings into a more attractive environment for tenants, with block paved services, new street lighting and new Well, if environmental improvement works means putting landscaping. The works have been the subject of a number the cars closer to your front door, that is about the sum total of tenant consultations and the comments have signifi cantly of it, because I do not see anywhere in the plans… This is infl uenced the works which my Department proposes to a family estate, and there are no plans for the improvement implement. My Department has also sought and obtained of the environment for children. There is a danger, and I advice from the Isle of Man Constabulary’s Architectural recognise the Minister’s and his offi cers… of the car parking Liaison Offi cer, with respect to the design proposals, and this in the evenings and weekends cluttering up the roads and advice has also been factored into the proposals. hardly getting it through, so I accept there is a problem and Furthermore, the costs of the demolition of 12 existing this is one way of dealing with it, but it seems to me that dwellings on the site of Project 3, which we will come onto sometimes the environment for children has been overlooked, later on this Order Paper, Mr President, which will facilitate and I believe when we do another part of these improvements an initial new-build development of 17 dwellings. We are we will actually be discontinuing the playground which the taking the opportunity of including the demolition costs Department gave – decommissioning that – so the children in these Projects 1 and 2. Almost all the dwellings have will have no playgrounds in that regard. been decanted and it is anticipated that the relocation of the As I said, I am not voting against this, and I hate to tenants to alternative dwellings will be completed by when sound like I am a Cassandra. I hope that the architects and the contractor starts on site at the beginning of August. The the Department are right and I am wrong, but having lived demolition works are being carried out as early as possible, there, I had to listen to my heart, and my heart tells me in order to create a site which can be used on a temporary these are not the right plans really for what I would call the basis for the storage of materials and plant associated with regeneration of Clagh Vane. I am sorry to have to say that, the implementation of the environmental works. because I think the Minister has done well to get this vast Mr President, my Department plans to commence works sum of money and he wants to make the best use of it. I just on site in early August and anticipates that all works will be somehow think we are not going to do it with the plans that completed by March 2011. have been submitted. I beg to move. I wish the Department well. I will not be opposing.

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 1 and 2 environmental improvement works – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1193 T126

The President: Mr Karran. Mr Watterson and another Member: Hear, hear.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think maybe we are reading The President: Minister to reply. a different Item here, when one of the Ministers gets up and says this will help the housing lists. This is not about building The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. one more local authority house; it is about refurbishing Regarding the local knowledge to the Member of houses. Council, Mr Lowey, I am fully aware and take recognition I think it is important that whilst we should be supporting of his concerns. I would put on record that these are the fi rst this – anything that will improve the quality of the housing three items. The fourth item, which will hopefully come in should be supported – what we do not need is the usual spin October, for a further £3½ million, is again just another stage when we are not addressing the problem of the housing crisis. in the redevelopment of what has been a neglected estate The lists… People are complaining more than ever about for many years. The people in this area deserve our support trying to get into local authority housing and whilst I think and investment, and therefore we will be committing a lot it is alright after the event to say… of time, effort and money, not just in Clagh Vane but in the I would like the Shirveishagh to consider maybe associated Crossag Farm area. sometimes it would have been better if we had been saying We are all familiar with the history of Crossag Farm maybe we should leave some of these houses to become and the missed opportunity at that stage to get some of the fi rst-time buyers’ houses, and build replacement houses for replacement houses, and I certainly do not need lectures from the housing stock, because we do want to make a social the Hon. Member for Onchan regarding the diffi culty and economic mix in as many places as possible. Snobbism realism for fi rst-time buyers, public sector, but there are many is bad; inverted snobbism is actually worse. I think that is properties in our public-sector stock which are desperately in something which I would have liked them to have considered, need of refurbishment, and if that is something which we can because maybe there was an opportunity there, where you do as part of the equation, then we will do that as well. could have been spending half that £2.7 million on building Where they are not worthy of refurbishment, then they new housing units, so that we are building from new, as far will be demolished and we know that there have got to be as the issue, and maybe creating some realism as far as the areas of decanting. One of the biggest obscenities that I fi nd fi rst-time buyers’ situation. You try and fi nd a house for under in my Department at the moment is the way it takes so long to £150,000 at the moment! decant persons out of public-sector properties, and therefore I will be supporting this proposal, but what I would like houses which are habitable lie empty for many years, in the to say is, again, it concerns me, Eaghtyrane – and this is why Pulrose area and in the Clagh Vane area, when we have the I think about the audit within this thing – 10 per cent of this housing waiting lists, which we deal with on a daily basis. So proposal goes in paper, basically. It would be interesting therefore, the sooner we can get people out… and this Item to know what the insurance bonds are there for. It will be here this evening, the fi rst of three, will actually lead to the interesting to know with these insurance bonds that they are not like the bonds we ended up with in the new hospital, demolition of the fi rst series of properties, which then will where they were not worth the paper they were written on. be replaced with modern facilities, and that is what most of And I think it is important that… can he just clarify these this is about – allowing our people in the public-sector areas insurance bonds and what they are actually there for, seeing to actually live to a reasonable standard. as they are allowed in the fi nancial appraisal of this Order? I beg to move, sir. It seems strange to me that – and I understand the pressures in the planning side – with the amount of staff The President: Hon. Members, the motion I put to the there is in the DLGE, why can we not see more of this done Court is that printed at Item 14 on your Order Paper, Hon. in-house, as far as getting the paperwork together, instead Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The of putting it out to the private sector? ayes have it. The ayes have it. Eaghtyrane, obviously I will be supporting this proposal, like I will be supporting the others, but I do think that somebody needs to get a grip of the issue of the professional fees. There are far too many people who manage to made Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla an awful lot of money out of professional fees, and I do not Temporary works to short life dwellings think that we have got our fi nger on the pulse as far as that, Expenditure approved especially when it goes wrong and they are never held to account. 15. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment So then, Eaghtyrane, I support this, but I do not want to move: this idea that somehow, by supporting Item 14, I am going to help the housing lists. This is existing housing units and I That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum not think it is important that we must stop the spin about building exceeding £246,023 for works to existing ‘short life’ these new houses. When we do build these new houses, they dwellings at Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla comprising: should only be included as new houses when they are not • installation of new front and rear UPVC doors to 56 replacement for existing housing stock. existing dwellings • installation of a basic gas fi red central heating system Mr Cretney: Mr President, as a point of clarifi cation, I to 35 existing ‘short life’ dwellings am sure Hansard will prove in due course that what I was saying was I welcome this and I look forward to further [Reference: Item No. 25 under the heading ‘Local developments in the future which would assist those on the Government and Environment – Schemes funded from housing list. Housing Reserve – ‘Clagh Vane Temporary work to

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 1 and 2 environmental improvement works – Expenditure approved Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Temporary works to short life dwellings – Expenditure approved 1194 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

houses’ on page 9 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10 My Department is conscious of the pressures on public – Detailed Capital Estimates of Government Departments finances. However, after exhaustive consideration of and Other Bodies 2009-10, and Estimate of Capital options, it has concluded the current situation cannot be Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 under the heading of ‘New allowed to continue any longer and that the works need to Schemes: Clagh Vane Temporary work to houses’] be implemented before another winter sets in. Mr President, I would apologise that in the explanatory The President: Item 15. Minister, please. Mr memorandum it identifi es, in the fi nal paragraph, a list of Shimmin. other options, which should have been attached and they were not. If I could just briefl y summarise those for Hon. The Minister for Local Government and the Members, option 1 was to do nothing, which would then leave Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. inadequate properties but would be no cost to Government. The proposed temporary works to short-life dwellings The second option was to consider a 50-per-cent heating are required as a result of the failure of the Crossag Farm subsidy for the persons living there, which would still allow housing development planning application, which would inadequate housing. It would cost less for us, but there would have provided 65 new public-sector dwellings for tenants be a subsidy, which would provide no improvement in the currently living in poorer-quality housing within the housing but a reduction in the cost to the individuals. The Clagh Vane Estate. Because of the potential development, third was to install gas central heating. That would be based maintenance and upgrading expenditure has been minimised on maximum expenditure for DoLGE but maximum benefi t on the existing dwellings over a number of recent years, and for tenants, with full house heating and instant hot water, the dwellings have not benefi ted from similar works carried and with careful usage the fuel costs should not exceed out to other newer dwellings within the estate. those currently being expended on coal. We also looked at An initial feasibility study has been carried out on electric, oil or renewables, but they were signifi cantly more behalf of the Department to assist in the development of expensive and therefore they were not progressed. With an alternative strategy for the replacement of these existing the proposal in front of us there will be a reduction in CO2 dwellings. This is currently being assessed by the Director emissions as a consequence of the redundancy of coal fi res of Estates and Housing. It is possible, however, that with to 35 dwellings. the ongoing development and adoption of an area plan for Mr President, I beg to move the Item in my name. the south of the Island, it may take my Department four or fi ve years to obtain consensus on the extent of new housing Mr Cregeen: I beg to second. development possible in Ballasalla over the next few years, I am pleased that this is coming forward. Many of these to obtain the planning approval, and then develop the new properties are very draughty, there are old wooden doors in replacement public-sector dwellings. them, poorly maintained. A number of these residents have My Department is fi rmly of the view that it cannot been concerned with the gas because of the potential cost, continue to provide homes for rent during this period which are in a condition well below the Department’s current but I understand the additional cost of putting oil central standards, and that the installation of new front and rear heating in could have been prohibitive for the short term. external doors and a basic gas-fi red central-heating system are I think, generally, it will be welcomed and I am glad this, required to provide a reasonable level of comfort for tenants. hopefully, will go ahead. These works will supplement the additional loft and cavity- wall insulation installed in the homes during 2008 and will The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. assist tenants in the provision of heating and hot water. My Department has obtained competitive tenders from Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. separate contractors and installers for the installation of the Just a couple questions to the Minister regarding new front and rear doors to 56 dwellings, and the provision of improving it. I support the principle of it and I was just gas-fi red central heating to 35 dwellings. Subject to Tynwald wondering whether the Minister could explain, on the last approval, works will commence on site in early August and memorandum and notes there was indication of who the should be completed by Christmas 2009. contractors were, and I was wondering whether this is in Hon. Members should be aware that my Department small packages and you have not decided who the contractors will attempt to recover around 30 per cent of the costs are. The same issue as Mr Karran mentioned earlier was associated with the central-heating works through increased that, hopefully – and I do not know how you would do rent payments of £5.50 per week for a 50-week year, and in a tendering procedure anyway – there would be some that the installed boilers will be able to be recovered to apprentices on the job to pick up the skills for the future. the best of our ability and reused, where possible, in other Could I also ask, regarding the central heating boilers, I dwellings following the demolition of these short-life presume they will be condensing boilers which will give you dwellings, which will reduce the overall fi nancial impact of a considerable lifespan if they are maintained properly. the proposed works. Mr President, it is fair to say that will With reference to the doors and the installation of them, be our intention, but I think all Hon. Members are realistic I just wondered whether when you are planning the new that, to a great extent, we are preparing to put in investment buildings, anyway, regarding reuse, and if it is a standard which cannot realistically guarantee future re-use of some door, it could be a two foot nine or sometimes a three foot… of these facilities, and that is the decision we have tonight, (Interjection) you could always reuse the thing if they were as to whether we can allow these people to continue to live planned at the same time. in substandard properties for a period of at least three, and Those are the points that I wanted to bring to your possibly beyond fi ve, years. However, we will attempt to attention. salvage what we can when we get to the stage of moving and relocating those persons. The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member.

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Temporary works to short life dwellings – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1195 T126

Mr Lowey: I, like the Minister, regret very much the mere comment on metal windows, but I believe they are PVC, put fact that we did not go ahead with the Crossag Farm, but that in some 15 years ago. However, certainly we are consciously is history – we did not, and that is an end of it. Opportunities aware of how poor our energy effi ciency and insulation has were lost for the regeneration of what I would call the oldest, been in the past. I think Government’s record on insulation or one of the oldest, parts of the village. and improvements, throughout the Island, is one to be envied This Item here is the installation of – now get a load of by others and certainly we could have gone further down this this – front and back doors and gas-fi red central heating. I route. We have tried to be proportionate, to say, what is the am glad my Member for my constituency has picked up the minimum level that we can invest for what are short-term fact that a lot of the tenants are apprehensive of gas because properties? of the cost. We have installed gas-fi res in the new fl ats which Certainly, the Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk, referred to were just opposite the shop, and those tenants are giving the condensing boilers and the reuse of existing doors and horror stories about the cost of running those. Could the boilers. I think I covered that in my introduction. We will Minister tell me that, by temporarily putting in new front make every effort to try and do it. It is part of our core policy and back doors and gas fi res, the points system will go up, in DoLGE and, indeed, Government for reuse and therefore and will their rents go up for a temporary measure? I think we are aware that this is an investment for a short period of the provision of front and back doors is basic and I think time, the shorter the better because I want to be moving on most Members in this Court would accept that on a property to Crossag Farm, sooner rather than later. Therefore, if I can in this day and age you should be able to keep the weather come forward with a scheme which means these properties out. My biggest concern about the gas fi res is some of these are vacated within three years, then that would still be success properties still have metal window frames and the heat loss… but it would mean that we had got even smaller value out I recognise that the Local Government Board have done the of this investment. wall insulation, which has been a great help. It has helped The local fi rms involved are Stewart Clague Services – there is no doubt about that, it has helped – to make the and N K Joinery. Both of those, I believe, as local fi rms, will houses warmer. have involvement with the DTI and, potentially, apprentices. Those are the two things, but there is a genuine concern I am not sure if they will be involved on this relatively minor and I am sure if this can be reiterated – they talk to me, just scheme. as they talk to the Hon. Member for the area – in the fact With regard to the apprehension regarding the cost of that there is a genuine concern by a lot of people about the gas, certainly our expectation is that with the works that had cost of the gas installations. been done last winter and with the.. if you like, making more airtight the properties and the more effi cient use of this, there should actually be no real extra cost, if any, in fact. There The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. should be a saving to the individuals, even including the £5.50 a week rent increase. The anticipation is that there will be a Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, again it is interesting to see higher level of saving on their fuel costs, which have been, that for the fi rst part of the proposal we have 13 to 14 per historically, very ineffi cient. cent as far as the project over the front and rear doors, as In fi nality, is the Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. I did far as professional fees are concerned. It does seem rather not refer to his repeated views on professional fees. This is strange to me that, if we are having these double-glazing something which, through my Department, we have a great fi rms providing this sort of service when these go out to deal of experience working with capital projects unit and contract, why do… I would not pay professional fees to get maybe the Hon. Member needs to come to my Department, or one plastic front door replaced, so why are we paying 13 or Treasury, and actually discuss what the reality of modern life 14 per cent in professional fees? When we hear every week is, rather than referring to something which is seen as being an about the complaints from the Minister for the DHSS that expenditure which is not needed. None of us are comfortable he has got no money, I just think that this issue needs to be about expending money. However, there is a level of work addressed. which my staff can do and they are fully utilised in trying to Again, when we talk about the other – fair enough, the develop the very new houses the Hon. Member, and others, professional fees are very little – as far as the situation over continually request from my Department. Therefore, we try the central-heating boilers, again I just query where these fees and get a combination of direct labour, but also using skills are generated from, because I think it is important that… We in the private sector where it is appropriate. have got to make sure that we do prioritise on that. It would With that, I beg to move, sir. be interesting to know what… Maybe the Shirveishagh could just clarify the issue of the short life. The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to I am not, again, against this proposal, Eaghtyrane, but the Court is now that at Item 15, again, Clagh Vane Estate, I do feel and I do get concerned about capital projects and Ballasalla – Temporary Works to Short Life Dwellings. Item about them being padded, and I think it is important that, if 15, Hon. Members: those in favour, please say aye; against, we are in harsh economic times, I cannot understand that if no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I can get a new boiler put in or a front and back door put on by a PVC company, I do not pay professional fees, and I just wonder why we should be paying professional fees when that should be part of the equation as far as the contract. Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla Projects 3 and 5A pre-contract costs The President: Minister to reply. Expenditure approved

The Minister: Thank you. 16. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment I dare not really question the Hon. Member of Council’s to move:

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Temporary works to short life dwellings – Expenditure approved Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 3 and 5A pre-contract costs – Expenditure approved 1196 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum not construction activities which will be ongoing. I anticipate that exceeding £213,350 to meet the pre-contract costs to the construction of the fi rst phase of development of 17 new progress Projects 3 (new build housing) and 5A (improved dwellings and road-widening works should all be completed road junction into the estate) at Clagh Vane. by March 2011. Mr President, I beg to move. [Reference: The Estimates of Capital Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 on page 56 of the Isle of Man Budget 2009-10 The President: Mr Cregeen. under the heading ‘Clagh Vane redevelopment’ and item 12 on p. 9 under the heading ‘Clagh Vane Redevelopment Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to – Project 3 new build’] second. This proposed new development in Ballasalla hopefully The President: We move on to Pre-contract Costs Project will free up some of the three-bedroom houses that are 3, Clagh Vane – Item 16. Minister, please. currently occupied by single occupants, so that the elderly people can move into more appropriate properties. One of The Minister for Local Government and the the points Mr Lowey stated earlier about provision for young Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. people, thanks to the Department of Tourism and Leisure, My Department has secured planning approval to develop they have offered a double-decker bus as a user facility in 17 new dwellings on the Douglas Road frontage of the Clagh the area, so this is something that hopefully will be going in Vane Estate, Ballasalla, adjacent to the Whitestone Garage, there for the short term before the Crossag Farm development and to widen and improve the existing single entrance road goes ahead so it is a short-term fi x and it is another piece of into the estate. The 16 apartments and one bungalow for older welcome development for the estate. (Interjections) tenants will be constructed on the site currently occupied by 12 houses and bungalows which cannot be economically The President: Mr Lowey. refurbished to the Department’s current housing standards. Initial design work has been undertaken by the Offi ce of Mr Lowey: I am rising for the Minister to say that I am Architecture and my Department now wishes to appoint a supporting this. It is the seed corn and by the way, I should design team to complete the detailed proposals and prepare declare an interest. It is to my front lawn actually, my house, tender documentation. I pass these houses every day, coming to work and so it is at My Department is working hard to bring projects to the end of my street and so I have to declare an interest. But the site as quickly as possible to support the construction I want them knocked down, I want them to be redeveloped, industry. With the concurrence of Treasury, a two-stage tender I want the entrance to be redeveloped. Anyone that uses it process was implemented to identify the preferred contractor knows at certain times of the day you cannot get in and out. to undertake both the proposed environmental works – that The Department are to be congratulated. is projects 1 and 2 previously referred to, and the fi rst phase I want to take this opportunity. I regularly take a pot of new-build construction and highway works. These items at the offi cers of the Local Government Board here and are before you at Item 16, projects 3 and 5A. This was elsewhere. I have to say the offi cers on this occasion for the necessary because there is inadequate space on the estate for redevelopment have been helpful, they have been available, more than one contractor to set up and operate safely. The they have never been afraid to come and talk, they have tender process was extremely thorough and evaluated both never been afraid to come and walk amongst the people and the contractor’s fi nancial competitiveness and his ability to they are to be congratulated on this instance for the way in manage the project on site. Tooms Brothers (1994) Ltd were which they have addressed this. The mere fact that I am out successful in that process. of step with them is my failure, not theirs, but I hope, as I My Department has completed the second-stage tender said at the start, that I am wrong and they are right, but this for the environmental works to the satisfaction of Treasury, particular issue we are dealing with is the right way forward, subject to a separate Tynwald resolution, and on completion is the start of the redevelopment, but it is only the start. This of the necessary design and specifi cation work, will be is the down payment to allow something else to happen. I implementing the second-stage tender process for the new- support the Minister. build works. I anticipate that this process will be completed in time to bring a resolution to Tynwald in October 2009, The President: Minister to reply. allowing the contractor to make a start on site on the new-build and highway works, subject to Hon. Members’ The Minister: Mr President, just some thank yous of approval, in early November 2009. my own. The proposed highway works to the Clagh Vane I appreciate Mr Lowey’s comments regarding my Estate entrance road and Douglas Road junction are being staff, but also on record to thank the former Member for implemented to address severe access problems for tenants housing, Mr Juan Watterson, who was involved throughout and local residents which occur during peak morning and the duration of this, also to the staff and for Mr Lowey for evening traffi c fl ows. The improvements have, however, also volunteering to have the double-decker bus for the children been designed to facilitate better access to the estate for larger outside his property. (Laughter) vehicles, emergency services and the like, and for further So with that, I beg to move, Mr President. potential redevelopment within the estate during future years, potential new school site or replacement housing units, or The President: Hon. Members, fi nally out of the three indeed children’s facilities, bearing in mind Mr Lowey’s Clagh Vane Items, Item 16, Hon. Members to approve the comments. The highway works will be implemented early in expenditure of a sum not exceeding £213,350 to meet the pre- the sequence of construction activities to help facilitate the contract costs to progress Projects 3 (new build housing) and

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 3 and 5A pre-contract costs – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1197 T126

5A (improved road junction into the estate) at Clagh Vane. of the western site, during which time the site affectionately Hon. Members those in favour, please say aye; against, no. known by users as the Harrods of the West has immersed The ayes have it. The ayes have it. itself into a culture of reuse and recycling. Whilst this is, in part, testament to the users of the site, praise has to be passed on to the site staff, who are both committed to this ethos and also the delivery of high standards of customer service for Western Civic Amenity Site all its users. Extension works How the site is operated in the future will continue to be Debate commenced determined by the Western Civic Amenity Site Committee. The proposed development to the site has been designed 17. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment to accord with best practice and will ensure the reuse and to move: recycling culture is enhanced, primarily through the expansion of the covered reuse building, where a wider selection of That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum not materials can now be stored. Recycling of existing materials, exceeding £620,000 for works to extend the Western such as metals, green waste and aggregates, will continue, but Civic Amenity Site. the added space will enable the site the opportunity to recycle other materials, for example, plasterboard and plastics. The [Reference: Item No. 9 under the heading ‘Local layout of the existing site requires a high volume of vehicle Government and Environment’ on page 9 of the Isle of reversing, particularly in areas of the site where users are Man Budget 2009-10 and as detailed in the Estimates of currently depositing waste, and the changes proposed Capital Payments 2009-10 to 2013-14 under the heading ensure that all traffi c will fl ow through the site effi ciently ‘New Schemes, Refuse Disposal, Extension Western Civic and safely. Separating the operational and public areas of Amenity Site’, on page 56 of the Isle of Man Budget the site will also alleviate the need for double handling of 2009 10] waste by customers and the skip operator. Included within the development are improvements to the offi ce and welfare The President: Item 17. Again, Mr Shimmin, please. facilities and the installation of a weighbridge, enabling the Committee to be fully accountable for all waste and The Minister for Local Government and the recyclables leaving the site. Environment (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Mr President. There may be some, Mr President, within this Hon. Court Waste management on the Isle of Man has on occasions or outside, who may question the need to spend £620,000 on development of a civic amenity site. However, considering been the source for lively debate, sir. Waste disposal charges the size of the site, the range of materials offered for and landfi ll are just two areas which provide contrasting collection, the number of residents served and the lifespan views and opinions. Whilst these and other associated issues of the site, this Scheme does represent value for money. It will be debated further, our ongoing approach towards waste is also relevant to note that the development of the site will management must be to ensure the waste is collected, stored, provide key employment to our construction sector, being a treated or disposed of in a safe, effective and effi cient manner, 20-week construction programme. refl ecting our size and island setting. Regrettably, the site will be closed during the construction In support of this, my Department is currently in the and we had hoped to minimise disruption to its users process of updating the Waste Strategy 2000, to defi ne the by providing a local alternative site. However, due to a objectives and set the priorities for the future. A fundamental combination of factors, we have not been able to provide an part of the strategy, and it can be said to be of the previous alternative site; therefore, whilst closing the site will cause strategy, is to ensure that we have access to the appropriate some inconvenience to residents in the west of the Island, level of waste infrastructure to enable the Island to manage we do have three remaining civic amenity sites which can its waste in a balanced and sustainable way, and where be utilised during the period. practicable adhere to the principles of the waste hierarchy, The changes proposed to the site have been designed to the aim of which is to manage waste in an order of priority, be sympathetic to the surroundings, provide enhancement with prevention identifi ed as the most desirable option, and of those areas of the site which work well, and provide with landfi ll being the least. improvement to those areas which offer risk or restriction. To achieve this will not only involve the building of Change for change’s sake is counterproductive for all new infrastructure, demonstrated in the construction of parties concerned. However, acknowledging that the west of the Energy from Waste Plant, but periodically reviewing the Island in recent years has experienced the fastest growing our existing sites and facilities, to ensure they remain fi t population, the proposal recognises this and will ensure the for purpose, refl ecting best practice and making necessary Western Civic Amenity Site has the capacity both for the changes, where appropriate. Part of the Island’s success in present and the future – surely one of our responsibilities complying with the principles of the waste hierarchy can be – and this provides improvement in the standard of waste attributable to the Island’s four civic amenity sites, and the services offered to residents, offering the potential to increase role they have played in increasing the level of household the level of waste reused and recycled in a way which is both waste recycled and reused. To sustain these improvements, practicable and sensible. we must acknowledge that several of our sites will require Mr President, I expect a few Hon. Members to have modernisation to ensure the needs of the future are met. The lively debate, but I will have an answer to a letter circulated fi nancial motion before you today is recognition of this, and to all Hon. Members yesterday, if we need that to be given provides for expansion to the Western Civic Amenity Site at the end, but I will allow Hon. Members the opportunity at St John’s. of making their points fi rst. It has been several years since the last major development I beg to move, sir.

Clagh Vane estate, Ballasalla – Projects 3 and 5A pre-contract costs – Expenditure approved Western Civic Amenity Site – Extension works – Debate commenced 1198 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. the collection now of glass and newspapers may well be unrivalled in many places. If you go to the Douglas site, you Mr Gill: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, sir. can now leave unwanted clothing there for various charities. You can leave batteries, which seems to me to be a very well The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. used facility and it always seems to be full. I do not seem to be able to get any room to put any batteries in it, when I go Mr Downie: Thank you Mr President. there. There is also the kerbside collection scheme, which has I did indicate to the Hon. Minister that when he was caught on, I think, very well with the people in the eastern moving this Item, I would be having something to say on district – even though it is apparently costing about £27,000 it. I am not going to speak about the principle of this, but a month to operate, according to the Oral Question 37 that what I want to do is put down fairly and squarely on record we have. my support to the way that the scheme to date has been But where I differ with the Department, and have done so operated. I think the scheme in the west of the Island, the through not the present Minister but through many Ministers civic amenity centre has been an outstanding success (Mr in the past, is the fact that they do not live up to their three Callister: Hear, hear.) and as far as I am concerned, if you Rs – reduce, reuse, recycle. It happens, as we have heard compare this operation with any other operation on the Isle from the Hon. Member, Mr Downie, at St John’s; it certainly of Man, it beats them all hands down. You have got a team of happens also in Port Erin, Port St Mary and that area, and people there who are dedicated to recycling, they know what having been to both of those areas, and occasionally made they are doing. There are not, to my knowledge, any health visits to St John’s to see if I could fi nd something that I was and safety problems and my big worry is that we will come looking for as I do a job – a bit of timber or some skirting in now, we will over-engineer the site and we will fi nish up board or something. There was always something there and with exactly the same thing as what we have got in Douglas, it was very well run – and is very well run and operated. where I would say that 50 per cent of the materials brought But when you then go to the policy of building Douglas to Douglas now get dumped immediately, because there is no and then say to the people, ‘Here you are: there are a load of opportunity for anybody to get in there, and do recycling. skips here. Come on throw all your waste into them’, that is I think the support that the Manx Government has given when the three Rs policy goes to pieces. It is not being used. to DoLGE, has been absolutely tremendous from a recycling It is not proper recycling and proper reuse. point of view, but you have only got to look at the shed in It grieves me when I go to the Eastern District Site to see Douglas. There is hardly anything ever in it, because the vast amounts of usable materials in these skips (Mr Downie: public are not encouraged to go into the areas where the things Hear hear.) that should be pre-sorted before they even get are being left and disposed of. They all go into a high-level there. At the very least, there should be a sign somewhere, as skip operation and then the public is denied access. To my you enter the site saying, there is a facility for leaving goods mind, Minister, that is not working to the principles that we here. Make use of it. If you have anything useful that can wanted to enshrine in the recycling process to get the system left for further reuse, then go to the appropriate area. What so it is open to the public, so we can get people to bring things is wrong, of course, is that the site is built in the wrong way. in, recycle them and take things away. The opportunity for leaving your goods, before you throw The scheme in the south operates very well and it does your waste away, should be as you enter, not as you leave. that because it is all on the same level and you have got the In fact, I am sure a lot of people, until they get used to that workforce down there, working in co-operation with the site, have no idea that they can leave items at these various public and at the end of the day that too is a credit to us. You areas at the bottom of the site. have got them making compost down there. The same could At St John’s, although I was not there, I am told there be done quite easily in the western sector with Ballaneven was a public meeting, attended by 200 people, or thereabouts, on the doorstep, where I know, from time to time, you can and there was also a petition with 700 signatures on it, all of bring green waste into that site and you can take compost whom were saying, ‘Don’t alter what we’ve got. It is working away, which is a very good way of getting people to bring perfectly well.’ and take away and fully utilise the system. It just seems to me to be a nonsense to proceed now with I do not want to vote against this but it would be very a further site, with the defects that Douglas has, in the way nice tonight, if the Minister, when winding up, would give of allowing people to make use of items that should simply this Court an assurance that he will revisit the mode of not go to the incinerator and that is what is happening with operation and see, even at this late hour, if there is time to them now. So to me it seems that the principle, or the way bring in working practices which do not deny the public that this is being done, is now wrong. I am not blaming it on and his Department to get together, to do some proper and the present Minister because I rather think that this principle meaningful recycling. I am afraid if the Scheme goes through was in position before he took offi ce. I may be wrong about in its present form, and the regime is the same as what is that. I think it lacks common sense, Mr President. I think it carried out in Douglas, we will be denying the people in lacks practicality. It will simply result in a lot of reusable the west of the Island a major opportunity to reduce, reuse products entering the incinerator and I would suggest to and recycle. the Minister that he adds another R to his three Rs: reduce, Thank you. reuse, recycle, rethink.

The President: Mr Callister. The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member.

Mr Callister: Thank you very much, Mr President. Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. I think, ﬁ rst of all, the Department needs to have a great Some of the points Mr Callister has made were some deal of credit for the progress that they have made so far: of the points I was going to make, and a couple of them,

Western Civic Amenity Site – Extension works – Debate commenced Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1199 T126

I think, are worth reiterating. I would like to support the got and then direct you to the various bays. I think that even redevelopment of the site but I do have reservations about with the new facilities in place, if the western committee the proposed layout and I would hope the Minister could do as good a job as they are doing now, I am sure they can give us a steer on whether it is too late to have these plans make this work. rejigged. I do hope the Department may just take a look at the plans The point about the Douglas… the eastern site, is a very and see whether they could maybe work with these people, valid one, and I know that from recent experience. I use the rejig them a bit, and fi nd their common ground, because I am western site as my local site; however, if you want to recycle pretty sure that once completed, people will use the facility plastic bottles, you have to go to the eastern site. Recently – I and it will be a very worthwhile facility. am renowned for being a bit of a hoarder – I was forced to I also hope the Minister will give his assurance that we have a clear-out at home and had a load of items that could can take our plastics to that site as well. have been reused by somebody, so for the fi rst time I went to the eastern site, and, on entering the site, was directed The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. to the skips. One of the items I was disposing of was a fi sh tank – nothing wrong with it, it had the gravel and all the Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. bits in – and I thought, ‘I’m not very keen on throwing that I would like to really build on the remarks of the previous in a skip from 20 feet up in the air’, so I did not throw it out speaker from the Legislative Council. He explained quite in the end. a lot of the situation quite well. As those who probably do This is the problem: the site is laid out so that you skip not know the site… I think the majority of people in here everything, and then, concealed round the back, are the reuse will have visited the Western Civic Amenity Site in the bays. I know that they are there now, so would probably think past. It has a very good reputation locally. I was fortunate twice before I go, but I think the biggest argument people to be a member on the original management committee. I were making at the public meeting – and this came up time think it is a very good example of local authorities working and time again – was the fact that when I go to the tip and in partnership. However, it has become very successful. sling everything in the skip, what I am considering as junk It is a very constrained site. It defi nitely does need some somebody may think, ‘Well, I could use that,’ and they may improvements. have a use for it. By putting it in the bays similar to what One of the greatest assets of the site, of course, is the they have in the southern site and what there is currently in staff who have embraced the recycling ethos and have a the west, people can retrieve them. lot of respect from the community in the way in which the So I would hope that they have a little look at the layout operate the site. Working practices have had to change over and try and possibly rejig the layout. If you were to simply the years, as the restrictive site has got busier. I too was one turn the traffi c fl ow around, I know the answer would come of those who attended the public meeting at St John’s and back to say, ‘Ah, but the traffi c has got to cross each other I did fi nd the petition that was circulating rather confusing here.’ Well, it does that at junctions all over the Island and I to people. I think the Hon. Member of Council was right in think with a bit of care and the slow speeds, I am sure it could that it was not terribly accurate in some places. It sounded still work if they looked at the site and made it so that you as if, if you were signing it and you looked at the headline, go to the reuse bays before you go to the skips, (A Member: you wanted to stop it closing down per se. Hear, hear.) or, indeed, maybe come up with a design similar I was reassured at that public meeting and I would like to the south. I would really like to support this motion here to thank the then departmental Member responsible, Mr today to approve this money to improve the site. Butt, who tried to put a lot of balance into the debate in With regard to the public meeting, I have to say, I was one that meeting. I was reassured by a lot of his comments, as I who attended the public meeting at St John’s a few weeks ago have been by the Minister here today, that when the site is and I was a little bit disappointed at the tone of the meeting, redeveloped, the management committee will be given the to be honest with you. The reaction from some people there freedom to operate the site in the way they think is best. (A was that if you had walked in halfway through the meeting, Member: Hear, hear.) We have heard from other Members you would have thought we were shutting down a hospital, today about the way the eastern site is run and the weaknesses rather than investing in new infrastructure; but it did show in that system. However, I believe that the freedom that that there was a very strong feeling. However, the petition that the management team are going to be given, to operate the has been mentioned, I felt was slightly misleading. It came site in a different way at St John’s will continue to enhance round the hall as if it was a sign-in for people who were at the reputation of the St John’s site. I think it will also give the meeting, but it was headed ‘Save our Western Amenity the opportunity for a greater percentage of material to be Site’ or something – words to that effect – and that gave you recycled. I think there is a lot of knowledge at St John’s and the impression it was closing down. I think that that is an I am glad to hear that the opportunity to the operatives will important thing and I do wonder how many people may have be given to work at other sites during the intervening period signed it thinking it was being closed down because there was when the St John’s site is closed down for development, and no explanation there as to exactly what that petition was that therefore I think the management committee can work for you were signing and, again, it was coming round the hall the best of the community in the future. as if it was a sign-in for people at the meeting. So I think we One thing I did agree with… My understanding in the past should treat that with caution. was that there was going to be a temporary site while the site There are genuine concerns from people about the site. was being redeveloped. I know that one of my Department’s It does work very well and I think a couple of people have areas was looked at. Maybe the Minister could give an mentioned that the reason the western site works so well is explanation why that has not come to fruition. Maybe it is the people that they have employed there because they do purely budgetary, but I can understand setting up a temporary stop everybody as they are coming in, fi nd out what you have civic amenity site would be quite costly, hence there has

Western Civic Amenity Site – Extension works – Debate commenced 1200 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day been the allegation made, by those who are vehemently At the end of the day, it is up to this Court whether opposed to any change, that it will lead to fl y-tipping in the we want to put the burden on those ratepayers, on those countryside. I do not believe that is true. I believe the vast local authorities that are out there, or do we want to see an majority of the general public who use that site will, in the element, or a little change in direction in the waste policy. intervening period, use the eastern or the southern amenity The Minister did mention it. The waste policy goes back to sites. I think the vast majority of the people using the sites 2000. Here we are in 2009. We have not had a big debate, are very responsible and I think it will be short-term pain, though hopefully next year, when Christmas comes, we will but, Mr President, I believe it is for the long-term benefi t of have a waste debate, because the waste industry is changing the west of the Island. Therefore, I now have no hesitation in all the time. asking the Hon. Members of this Court to support the motion We look to the Question I put down today, but we never in the name of the Minister. got to it. I was grateful to the Minister for putting the fi gures together. It was to do with kerbside collection. It just shows The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. you how much it is actually costing to send vehicles round, and I hope that would not be an extension to this for the future Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. for the west, because it all costs money. I hope the Clerk will circulate the motion that I have The other issue too is… and the Minister is responsible. before us there. I just wanted to talk about the Civic Amenity He is the administrator for the east, and I wonder what Site. I know it is not in my particular area, but I know that would happen, although there is a joint board in the west, Members have had letters and I have had some telephone if this is evaluated, how much impact or how much power conversations which have been quite interesting from people the Department will want over that Committee, or maybe who lived in the area. I have also had discussions with some they will want… I hope that the local authorities stand their local authority members too. The latest one buttonholed me ground and make their own destiny on this. on Tynwald Day from the particular area and was looking at To that extent – I hope all Members have received it – a the plans, when the plans were delivered for the particular motion I have put forward is to actually physically adjourn site. It is an absolute clone of the Eastern Civic Amenity the debate until the Court in October. The purpose of doing Site, so I hope the Department has not paid any money for that is, Members, not to stifl e the Minister; it is to give the it, because you could have lifted it off on a photocopy. parties the chance to get together to discuss the site, the plan The concern I do have regarding this is in several forms. itself – is it good for them? Do they need to make it that size? It is the size and capacity of the particular site which is before What is the size? What is that site size for? Is it for a 50,000 us today, when you actually look at it and the analysis you population? You can only go on the cloning thing, which I have to make, Members, is that the Eastern Civic Amenity do, for the east. That is the size I would think the Minister Site was for the eastern area, which is probably about 50,000 is trying to go for. The amount of trucks that are on site is of the population for the Isle of Man. So here we have a bad enough. There are three or four trucks there. The layout, site which the Department wants to promote in a particular which the Member of Council, Mr Turner said, is defi nitely area, which has been said by every Member – well, when wrong. We have learnt those mistakes from the eastern site. they all get up they will probably say the same – the site has When you come into the site there, you go straight to the been used by the local authorities for its own purpose, for ramp, straight to the bins, everybody dumps it in. Why bother its own ratepayers. Very good. It may require – and it is only going back down to the bottom to what they used to call the my thoughts – when I visited the site a few times, it is not green sheds? (Interjection) The sheds here in the west… all that busy from the Monday to the Friday; I think the busiest those sheds there. I am sure that the staff implications would times will probably be the weekend, like all civic amenity be quite costly. sites are… It is the capacity side of it. I wonder, and it has So I am just putting this out. The documents stand on been touched on earlier in the debate, regarding the recycling themselves. It is written there. There is concern in the area. side of it. I think from my own personal view, if this was to The ratepayers are concerned, there is no doubt about that. go ahead, it would be the end of recycling defi nitely in the Some of the local authority members are concerned about west, because whether the Minister likes it or not, he will this and I think by Members, here today, supporting the create something like he is doing in the east, making bins for adjournment, will give sides… to get together and come for a material and you have got to have the material in the right common cause for themselves and have their own destiny. bin and it has got to be disposed of in the right way, and that I beg to move: is what will catch people out for the future. Obviously, it will cost the local authorities in their area, That this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court but that is down to them and the ratepayers, which brings in October 2009. me to the letters that I have received and the correspondence or people telephoning you regarding it, asking for support Mr Cregeen: Mr President, I beg to second the to put some realism back into this particular area. Whether adjournment. we like it or not, this is a substantial amount of money to be invested in the particular site. The number of petitioners, or the petition itself, I believe is about 700, so I do not think 700 were collected all on the Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended one night. There were probably only about 120 in the hall, to enable business to continue until 9.30 p.m. something like that. To get 700… I presume they will all be ratepayers; I have not gone through the particular list. They The President: Hon. Members, I had thought, Hon. do have a concern. A number of local authority members do Members and had hoped, in fact, that I would be able to have a concern. complete this Item and then put to you the necessity of voting

Western Civic Amenity Site – Extension works – Debate commenced Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to enable business to continue until 9.30 p.m. Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1201 T126 at eight o’clock, actually, as to whether we would continue to Western Civic Amenity Site sit on tonight. The fact that we have now got an adjournment Debate continued debate seconded, Hon. Members, puts it in a different light. I Expenditure approved feel at this stage Hon. Members, I have to put to you, under Standing Orders, whether it is your desire to sit on or not, The President: Hon. Members, the adjournment debate. Hon. Members. We have moved on now, proposed by Mr Quirk and seconded Mr Henderson. by Mr Cregeen, that this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court in October 2009. Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, I would move to suspend Adjournment debate continues. Mr Callister. Standing Orders and that we continue this business and also that we continue to say half past nine and review the situation Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. then. I say this, because there is so much on the Order Paper Yes, I will support the adjournment. I think it would be that we are in real danger of hanging over into Thursday and useful for the Minister if those people who are supporting a possible Friday morning, Eaghtyrane. the adjournment and the move by Mr Quirk would point out I move: why they want to adjourn it. I think he may already have the message, but if they could perhaps give an indication That Standing Order 1.2(2) be suspended to enable of what they would expect to see when it is brought back business to continue until 9.30 p.m. in October. From my point of view, I would make it clear that what Mr Earnshaw: I beg to second, Eaghtyrane. I referred to earlier is that the system needs to be reversed in order for the opportunity for people to leave their goods The President: Hon. Members, we will go straight to for reuse, and we do not want to have anything that repeats the vote. what has happened in Douglas, (A Member: Hear, hear.) which is a very wasteful operation. Mr Callister: What are we voting for, please? The President: Mr Gawne, Hon. Member. The President: Voting for, will be to continue, Hon. Members. Voting against, will be to stop now. Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I am a little bit concerned about this motion to adjourn. Voting resulted as follows: I think we have a very clear message from the elected representatives in the west of the Island. Certainly the In Tynwald – Ayes 30, Noes 1 members on the board that have discussed this with DoLGE seem very supportive of this principle. Either we believe in FOR AGAINST local democracy or we do not believe in local democracy. Mr Anderson Mr Karran (Several Members: Hear, hear.) The people have elected Mr Teare Mr Quayle their representatives. Mr Brown Mr Watterson Mr Downie: It is up to them to put the money in. Mr Gawne Mr Gill Mr Gawne: The representatives sit on the Waste Mr Henderson Mr Houghton Management Board for the west and they support this Mr Cretney proposal, so I really do not see why we need to have further Mr Malarkey discussions and further consultation on the matter. Mr Braidwood Also in relation to this matter, yes, I have had two e-mails Mr Corkish from people who… Certainly, one was clearly opposed Mr Shimmin Mr Crookall to this motion; one, it was hard to say exactly whether he Mrs Craine was opposed or not. All the people I have bumped into and Mr Bell spoken to from the west are saying to me, ‘We want this Mr Earnshaw development in our area, we don’t want to be ruled by the Mr Quirk mob,’ which was the case at the meeting, as I understand it. Mr Cregeen The Speaker I was not at the meeting, but some of the people, who are The Lord Bishop good friends of mine, who attended that meeting felt that Mr Butt they were intimidated by the mob-rule effect that was taking Mr Callister place at that meeting. Mrs Christian I do not believe that there is an issue here that needs to be Mr Crowe adjourned. We have the information before us. The Minister Mr Downie Mr Lowey has put forward his case and I do not believe that the case Mr Turner for an adjournment has been made at all. Mr Waft The President: Mr Quayle, Hon. Member. The President: The requirement, Hon. Members, under Standing Orders, is to have 16 in the Keys and 6 in the Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Council, 22 in all. We have 30 voting for, 1 against, Hon. Rather along the same lines as the previous speaker, Members. We will continue. who has resumed his seat, I have also received some

Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to enable business to continue until 9.30 p.m. Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved 1202 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day representations, limited though they are, about potential is simple. It says, ‘We want an enhanced facility, but not the concerns about the proposals. At that stage – and it is going one that is on offer.’ (A Member: Hear, hear.) ‘We think back over a few weeks ago now, when people fi rst, in a limited a local way, and this is our local way of doing it.’ What is way, approached me – after seeking clarifi cation from around wrong with that? parish commissioners as to their stance, I was reassured by I do not know, in the Minister’s opening remarks, whether the fact that they were very supportive of the proposals, and, that has been considered by the Department or not, so at realising that they are on this joint committee, I felt quite well the moment I am going to vote for the amendment, to give assured myself about the proposals and the plans. breathing space (A Member: Hear, hear.) to see is there a way I think that they are there to do a job, they are elected of getting it ready. What if we continue? We are committed by the people, and if they have deemed this to be the best to spending £600,000 on something that I am told… I have proposal for the area – and bearing in mind there is a no scientifi c knowledge of trying to say which side has got substantial increase in the population within that western a majority or not. All I can tell you is I have been lobbied area, particularly Peel – then the proposals certainly merit, to vote against it and the arguments I have read have been I think, voting on tonight. articulated very well to me why I should vote against it, but we should still retain the site and improve it. But do we need The President: Hon. Members, remember we are to spend £600,000? I think we need to spend something on discussing the adjournment debate pure and simply. If it, because I do know, from my own experience when it was whatever you do with the adjournment, if the adjournment fi rst put in, that there was a danger in the working practices. motion fails, we go back to the principal debate. That has been altered because of training, and I appreciate Mr Lowey. that very much. Mr President, the view that this Court should take stock Mr Lowey: On the adjournment, Mr President, let me and step back is not a bad one. (A Member: Hear, hear.) tell the Minister, when I came into this Court I was open- Traa dy liooar? In this case, I think it is worth being traa minded, believe it or not. I have stood here and argued dy liooar. the case for waste management and I am glad tonight we are not discussing the principle; we are just saying what The President: Lord Bishop. type we want. What if the Court decides to reject it, this recommendation? What happens? Nothing happens. It carries The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Mr President. on like it is. I would like to ask the Minister to help me to understand which way to vote (Interjections) by commenting on whether Mr Downie: It has worked well like that. the plans are so fi rmly set that they cannot be amended as they are, for instance, in the way that my hon. friend, Mr Mr Lowey: So we are not arguing about the position. Callister, has suggested. If there can be some amendment, Usually when we are in this position, Mr President, we are then I do not want to support the adjournment. If there cannot arguing about whether you want it in your backyard or not. be signifi cant amendment, then I would have to vote for the The people of St John’s have accepted it and worked on it. adjournment, but I do not know which way the Department I have to say to the Minister, when I came in and when can take this. he had fi nished his speech, I am afraid he was 40-love down. I too have received a letter from Mr Dale, and I must The President: Mr Butt, Hon. Member. confess it was an articulate letter, well marshalled, fi rmly put, (A Member: Hear, hear.) certainly not undermining the Mr Butt: Thank you sir. Department – in fact, saying what we are doing, we can do I will just speak briefl y to the adjournment debate. Firstly, it better if we put a roof over it and we will save some trees. the local authorities in the area have been aware of this for That appealed to me, I must confess; I do not like the idea of some years. This has not come out of the blue this week. chopping trees down. Having said that, I look… When I hear There has been two or three years of negotiations with all the Ministers saying, almost like a dawn chorus, we really commissioners in the area and they have all supported it all should not… I really… Not only was the Minister 40-love the way through. down, it was advantage to Mr Dale, (Mr Houghton: Hear, I think the danger we have here is comparing the Peel site hear.) because I do genuinely believe there is not really that with the Douglas site and the Douglas shed; they are different much against us on both sides of this argument. entities and different people use them. I was at the meeting I too was (Interjection) lobbied at Tynwald, at St John’s. where Mr Callister said 200, there were actually about 110 I thought I was the only one – I am delighted to hear I was or 120. It did seem like 200 on occasions because they were not – but I have to tell you (Interjection) not one person came hostile in some cases. to me and said, ‘Go and do it.’ They were all saying to me, During that meeting – I will not elaborate on this now, Mr ‘Don’t vote for it, Mr Lowey, please.’ President, because hopefully I can speak again later – we did give assurances to the people there, to the chairman of the Mr Houghton: It is a waste of money. committee that runs the western site, that they would run the site and it would be their way of running it. If they wished to Mr Lowey: That is democracy. I am sure there is a run it as they ran the old site, they were quite able to do so. counterargument, but I have not seen any great groundswell The question of the route, the circulation of the wagons of opinion saying, ‘Go for it.’ and the route, again that would be a matter for them. At the So what are we arguing about? We are arguing whether moment it is designed so that the route is clockwise, but to we should spend £600,000 of taxpayers’ money to create a make it anticlockwise, all we would need is a can of paint new enhanced facility. The opposing argument, Mr President, and a halt sign. If, after operation, they fi nd that it does not

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1203 T126 work, they can reverse the route. There is no problem with area and I am fi nding, even though Michael Commissioners that. They have autonomy to do what they want on their have acceded to this idea, there is a groundswell of opinion own site, because it will be their site to run as they wish. If that it should not take place without further review and that, they want to maintain the ethos of the full recycling which quoting Mr Malarkey, if it works, do not fi x it. It needs a is excellent in the west now, they can carry on doing that certain amount of refurbishment. It does not need what is and I think for that reason there is no need to adjourn today. proposed. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) I think I am speaking for the majority of my constituents, We can discuss it later on and we can provide more who are in opposition to what the Commissioners wish – and information for Members as I am sure will the Minister and that is nothing unusual in Kirk Michael. Commissioners his Member as well. I would oppose the adjournment. wished to purchase the old courthouse the other day and they asked the residents of Kirk Michael to vote and they voted The President: Mr Malarkey. against. Just because the Commissioners say they want to do something, that does not mean to say that that is the wish Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I came into this debate very of the people (Several Members: Hear, hear.) and it is not 50-50 tonight. I certainly have not made my mind up one way the Commissioners that have elected me to this place. One or the other. As it is unfolding… let me fi rst say my theory or two of them may have individually voted to do so, but of life has been, if it is not broken, do not try and mend it it is the mass of the people and the majority of the people and as an engineer, it was a very good theory to have. The want further consideration. And while, as has been said, the site is working extremely well. There are concerns, I believe, bandwagon of the Council of Ministers, the governing party for people down in the west of the area that we should not is rolling forward, I urge this Court, nothing will happen, if be playing with it. you just adjourn it to October. The show will go on. What is concerning me tonight is the comments that are coming out in this Court. There seems to be a very mixed The President: Mr Crookall, Hon. Member. response to this, whether we should go with the amendment and I look round and I fi nd Mr Anderson who happens to be Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. a Minister very much for pushing this forward. Mr Quayle, I do not know where to start on this. I too, like Mr another Minister is pushing it forward, Mr Gawne, another Anderson, was a member of the original committee that Minister is pushing it forward and I am now beginning to helped set this up many moons ago, so I feel a lot of affi liation think that the Council of Ministers have made their mind up to the site. that they want to come forward with this and they are going I am now betwixt a rock and a hard place here with to push this forward. my Minister for DoLGE looking at me over there, saying, So I would certainly think it is time to step back and draw ‘What’s he going to say?’ He knows I am not a hundred per breath and revisit this site and I would certainly go with the cent on this, and I think the Lord Bishop hit the nail on the amendment and put it back to October. head just now when he said, ‘Give me an answer here – what do we do? Do we adjourn it, or can it be rejigged?’ It does The President: Mr Anderson. need rejigging. We have all said that tonight. Everybody who has stood up tonight has said there are one or two problems Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. with the design here tonight. I could run with either, sir. Speaking to the adjournment debate, and in response I could offend my Minister over there as well by saying to the last Hon. Member’s comments, I am an elected that. I probably already have done now, but when the Hon. representative of an area representing the Western Civic Member of Council, Mr Butt, said we spent two or three Amenity Site, (Interjection) as is Mr Quayle, and I take my years consulting with the local authorities, that may be, but stand on this from the local authorities in the area. what I am getting back from my local authority, or from my Mr Gawne has already said in this debate that we should constituents, is that we have never heard about this. be giving responsibility to people in the local authorities. The local authorities of the area are in support of this. There might A Member: Hear, hear. be individuals within the local authorities who are not, but the majority of members of the local authorities in the area Mr Butt: Hang on, public meeting in Peel. are in support of it. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Therefore we should listen to their voice. Mr Crookall: Sorry? I propose that we do not spend any more time on this and we actually vote on the adjournment. Mr Butt: There was a public meeting in Peel.

Several Members: Hear, hear. Mr Crookall: How many attended? What I am saying is how many attended? Not a lot of people knew this was going The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. on, whether it be the original planning sign that went up at the site or the actual commissioners telling the constituents Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think the question – of the area. I do not think consultation, as we would be pulled up for, has been done properly here. I am going to The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for leave it there, sir. Michael. The President: Mrs Christian. Mr Cannan: In response to the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, I too am an elected representative in the western Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President.

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved 1204 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

I think there is a danger in adjourning this and thinking Mr Karran: – that we have the block vote of the Council that something can change. If you adjourn it, we simply of Ministers trying to turn black into white again. What the come back with the same motion and I am not sure what people out in the west of the Island are concerned about is a can change in the meantime, unless the Minister can tell us simple thing. What they want is Government to serve them, that the traffi c can fl ow the other way around. If it can, then instead of for them to serve themselves. it does appear that everybody’s needs could be met. It does I think what the adjournment debate would do, by allowing seem to me, Mr President, yes, the documentation we were it to October… because I am like the Member of Council, Mr sent from the people who do not want change was well argued Lowey. I have had a couple of people on to me about… ‘Oh, and well presented. People feel strong affi liation with the site again, Government! Why are they doing this? Why? We need and the way that it operates. slight improvements.’ Hopefully, Eaghtyrane, the policy that I I think also the Department has to look forward to an tried to get through, and succeeded, is working, that the more expanding population in that area and do something about they spend, the more that the professional people do not get the site which has been acknowledged does need a measure nowadays. That was one of the absurdities. If you can get of refurbishment and improvement. Even the people who away with 5 per cent on gold taps instead of steel taps, then use it, say that it needs some change, so I think that we there was a lot more for the people who were driving a lot of could accommodate everybody’s wishes in this, if we could these contracts, as far as this situation in the past. simply reverse the traffi c fl ows without too much diffi culty. To that extent, I cannot see any great value in adjourning. The President: Thirty seconds, Mr Karran. It will not achieve a change, unless the Minister determines that the traffi c cannot go a different way; we would simply Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think that what we need here be presented with the same motion, unless it were withdrawn is time for refl ection. What we want is a Mini, a good Mini, and some other alternative presented. but we do not need a Rolls-Royce, and I think that this Hon. So I cannot see great value in adjourning the debate, Mr Court need to realise… Again, I repeat, the DHSS Minister President. complains at every sitting he has not got enough money. The question is… The people are telling you that you do not need The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. a Rolls-Royce. Go back, talk to them, talk with them, not at them, and make sure you come back with a proper Mini Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I fi nd it rather sad, the debate which will serve the community and not have these Ministers as far as the adjournment is concerned, in the fact that, just justifying anything – yes, I think that it is terrible, the previous speaker saying, well, nothing will change. I think the reason why people The President: Time is up, Mr Karran, thank you. have complained about this, is that once again Government wants a Rolls-Royce when a Mini will do and I think that Mr Karran: – because they are part of a gang. is the sort of thing that concerns people outside. Long term we are going to see these issues being passed over to the ratepayers. I am sure once they get through the reorganisation The President: Mr Cregeen. of local government, we will see all the white elephants of Government being handed over and having to be fed by the Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. ratepayers, as far as the Isle of Man and that is why you have Speaking to the adjournment, what has concerned me got your concern. from the whole point of this debate is the Minister standing I think the point is it is about consultation. Where Dudley up going ‘big rush’ – you have got to do it now, got to do it talks about the consultation, was it a matter of talking with now! (A Member: Hear, hear.) It seems concerning to me people or talking at people? I think the problem is today and that we are getting told, just stand back for a minute, we why I think we should be supporting the adjournment is that have got apparently 700 people who have signed a petition it would give some reasonable period of time to come back. saying they are not happy about it. We do not know where How many promises are made by Ministers and promises are they have come from. So you have got a number of people broken by Ministers? We have been told it has been looked who have expressed a concern. at, but the reality is, who will actually be running the design, I know the Department is saying we have done as far as this proposal is concerned? Will it be the politicians? consultation, but sometimes consultation only comes about And to be fair to the Minister he has got enough problems when it has come forward now that people suddenly realise than to be worried about the Western Civic Amenity Site. there is something there knocking on their door. Maybe now I can understand that, and many of those problems he has is the time to just step back for a little bit and like the Hon. inherited and are partly why we need the changes within the Member of Council, Mrs Christian said, the Minister can system of government that we have got at the present time. come back in October with a new motion. The DoT have I believe, Eaghtyrane, that we should support the done this with schedule 2. They have amended it, it has come adjournment. I am appalled at the Member for Rushen. I can forward and it has come back with a safety measure. So this remember having a go at one of his former colleagues, John is DoLGE’s option, they can come back again with a revised Corrin and I think he makes the affair over John Corrin look option after further consultation. This is a warning from the like a non-event. This is a man and he says… the way he has people out there saying to you, they are concerned. input into this debate. What a difference it makes when you become a Minister! Whatever happened to the beliefs when The President: Chief Minister. he was banging on doors around Rushen, as far as the people were concerned? I think it is a shame, Eaghtyrane – The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would ask Members to not support the adjournment. The President: Come back to the adjournment, sir. The reason is quite logical, and that is: what are you going

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1205 T126 to achieve? The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt, who are still going to be running the site and it will be up to them has been involved in this, has already told the Court that how it operates, so there is no reason why, broadly, it cannot they spent two years talking to the local authorities who are operate along similar lines to what is operating now, albeit going to manage this site. He also told Hon. Members that if with enhanced facilities. they wish to reverse the traffi c fl ow, which is diagrammatic Unless we get some evidence that local authorities have in here, then they can do that quite easily. So why would now changed their mind, and they are not in favour of it, then we want to support wasting thousands of pounds delaying I will be voting for the Scheme. it until October – that is what it will do, because the delay will cost money – and what are you going to achieve? The The President: Mr Shimmin. answer is nothing. Also, let us just come back. Seven hundred people signed The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. a petition. I have heard that quite a number who signed the Only just to respond really to the Lord Bishop, certainly petition did not realise what it was, because of the reasons from my point of view, I would prefer Hon. Members, if that have been explained in this Court today. A hundred and they do not like the Scheme, because of the cost or because twenty people attended a public meeting. The population area of the layout to vote against it. I would really prefer to this covers is something like 8,000 people. So, to put that into get moving on this Scheme as elucidated by Mr Butt, the context as well, a lot of people have not said anything. Member of Council, he will have an opportunity to explain The other point is – and this is a real issue for us, and this all the background to this, the reasons, the benefi ts. He will was an issue identifi ed way back – you have got a problem. be able to respond to some the comments and the literature The responsibility and the funding lie with Government. The that has been circulated. luxury of opposing it and it not costing you anything lies We are aware that there are some people in the area who with other people. As far as the letter is concerned that we do not like change; however our job as politicians is to make had, it is from a professional writer. That is what he is. We decisions on infrastructure for the next 50 years and certainly all know him. We know Bill Dale. He has been asked to do from my point of view, if Hon. Members cannot be convinced it. I know he is a volunteer, but he is a professional writer, by contributions that were made in the rest of the debate, then putting it in a way that puts the case. That is fi ne, but let us simply vote against it. It would be more honest than actually at least keep that in context. delaying something for three months which will then come The most important question for Hon. Members is what back and we are very good at deferring and delaying. I would are you going to achieve by adjourning it. There has been prefer a clear vote. If we get the approval, then they get on consultation with all the authorities. All the authorities who site, they get the work done. If we do not get the support, are the management here are approving the Scheme. We then we inevitably go back to the drawing board to look at have been advised that if the traffi c fl ow needs to be altered, alternatives. So let us make a decision today please, sir. it can be done with a pot of paint – as simple as that – by painting a white line. Ex traffi c policeman… (Interjection) The President: Mr Downie. Well, policeman, anyway. (Laughter) He used to drive a car, anyway. I saw him on telly once, driving a police car, telling Mr Downie: I have heard enough and I have seen them how good the TT was. enough to know that the Scheme that is before you tonight, The point is, Mr President, let us get real about this. What Hon. Members, in spite of what our Chief Minister says, is is the real problem? The real issue is there is a job to be exactly the same as the scheme in Douglas. (A Member: done here. They talk about a Rolls-Royce. If anyone knows Absolutely.) Those of you who know how Douglas operates anything about civic amenity sites – really knows – look at know it is not working effi ciently. It is not practical. You the map. It shows you exactly what you need to provide a have a ramped area where vehicles drive up on a ramp and proper civic amenity site. It is not a Rolls-Royce; it is what then they tip into the skips, and if that goes ahead, what will is needed to do it effectively. prevent this from working effectively is the same reason So, Mr President, I would urge Members not to support why it does not work effectively in Douglas, because your the adjournment. For goodness’ sake, make a decision! All Health and Safety men, Minister, will not allow the public I can say to Hon. Members who say, ‘Oh, we are being told to go into that area and do any recycling, and that is part of we have got to do what the Ministers…’ – no, you have not! the problem. You can reverse all the fl ows you want. In my If you do not support the Scheme, vote against it. If you want opinion, the only… I have no problem with the groundworks, an adjournment, vote for it. All I am saying is – because that the drainage, the concrete base and all the rest of it, but is what this place is about: debating – I think you are wrong somebody really needs to see whether these ramps and these if you go for an adjournment, because you are actually going areas, which are highly elevated and dangerous, are really to create and get nowhere with it. You need to just get on necessary. That is where the problem lies. The rest of it I do with the job. not have a problem with. I have got enough confi dence in the system, and I know The President: Mr Turner, Hon. Member. that Mr Butt will look at this very carefully and he will have dialogue – Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. Speaking to the adjournment, I will not be supporting Mr Lowey: Not now. the adjournment. I am certainly not aware that the local authorities have changed their minds on this matter. In Mr Downie: Well, he is not there now. Whoever is there effect, although the DLGE are building this, it is in fact their now. Who is waste management now? Scheme. The nail has been hit on the head quite simply by… we have heard it can be turned around, the local authorities Mr Lowey: Mr Gill.

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved 1206 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

Mr Downie: Mr Gill. Well, he has been very quiet on In the Council – Ayes 2, Noes 7 the subject. Maybe he will be the one drinking out of the poisoned chalice. (Laughter) At the end of the day, if it does FOR AGAINST not work, it will be Mr Gill I will be blaming, (A Member: Mr Lowey The Lord Bishop Hear, hear.) (Laughter) because you have gone into this with Mr Callister Mr Waft Mr Butt your eyes open. You have got another very successful facility Mr Turner in your location in the south of the Island that works really Mrs Christian well. You have got enough people down there to give you Mr Downie advice, so if I vote for this, I will be expecting you, Mr Gill, Mr Crowe to get on and get it delivered. The President: With 2 for, 7 against in the Council, The President: Mr Quirk, do you wish to reply to the Hon. Members, the motion for adjournment therefore fails debate, sir? to carry. Hon. Members, we will continue with the debate. Mr Mr Quirk: Just Mr President, quickly if I could say, Henderson. emotions are running high, but the crux of the matter is that deferring this till October does give the parties a chance, Mr Henderson: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. does give some realism to come into this particular plan. The Sorry, Member for South Douglas, but there are one or red herrings about a pot of paint are absolutely disastrous, two things I do need to say, Eaghtyrane, following on from when there will be stacks of information which will be the comments I have heard now. I was going to speak in the attached to this, there will be a document that size about the fi rst place briefl y, but I think we need to address the absolute risk assessments for the site, the trucks that will have to be nonsense I have heard tonight with regard to ‘I’ll be following ordered for the site, the fuel, where the fuel is going to be what my local commissioners tell me to do – what my local stored, is it going to be picked up and everything. authority members tell me to do.’ Three Ministers have But Members, vote for the adjournment, because you said that tonight, which is quite astonishing as far as I am know it makes sense. (Laughter) I could say to the Lord concerned. I thought we were elected by our constituents and Bishop, because I remember crossing swords with the Lord people of the constituency, to represent them individually or Bishop last time and it was to do with the waste debate. collectively. I would be most interested to learn if the local Remember that, Lord Bishop, when you fi rst came? So authorities concerned carry the full majority mandate of the you are looking for advice from the Minister, but if you are area and their constituents that they represent. looking for advice from this Member, if you just step back In fact, I was quite astonished: I was thinking, as the a bit and let the parties heal it, it comes out with a better adjournment debate was progressing, that actually democracy solution. was being slowly eroded and kicked out the open door of the Bar of Tynwald at one point, Eaghtyrane, with the way the The President: Hon. Members, the motion put to the reasoning and thinking has been advanced by the Member for Court is that in the name of the Hon. Member for Onchan, Glenfaba and the Member for Middle with regard to that. I Mr Quirk, that this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the have not heard one person stand up yet and say, ‘Well, actually, Court in October. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say some of our constituents are quite worried about this, and aye; against, no. The ayes have it, but we will go straight to I’m not afraid to stand in represent a few of my constituents’ a vote, Hon. Members. views.’ I have not heard that from the constituency Members Hon. Members, it requires 13 in the Keys and 5 in the involved; quite the opposite actually – Council. Call the vote. Mr Quayle: Point of clarification, Mr President. Voting resulted as follows: (Interjections)

In the Keys – Ayes 16, Noes 7 The President: Hon. Member, you will get your opportunity to speak. FOR AGAINST Mr Henderson. (Interjections) Mr Cannan Mr Anderson Mr Henderson Mr Teare Mr Houghton Mr Quayle A Member: No, he cannot. Mr Malarkey Mr Brown Mr Karran Mr Watterson Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, I have spoken… not out of Mr Quirk Mr Gawne choice, it was out of sheer accident, folk who are involved in Mr Cregeen Mr Gill Mr Cretney this in the area concerned, out of the blue… I have not been Mr Braidwood canvassed, buttonholed or whatever else. It is quite clear to Mr Corkish me that there are plenty of people who have got an alternate Mr Shimmin view to what has been expressed here, and it is quite clear to Mr Crookall me that perhaps some of the local commissioners may have Mrs Craine Mr Bell got one or two things wrong and need to go and recanvass Mr Earnshaw their own constituents and have a hard think about what is The Speaker going on here. As for the nonsense with regard to petitions, Eaghtyrane, The Speaker: Mr President, 7 votes for, 16 against. The I have been here long enough now to know that usually, motion therefore fails to carry. when the establishment is presented with a petition, people

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1207 T126 who have bothered to put their heads above the parapet and up with. We had to pare it down for fi nancial reasons and put their names and addresses on in good faith, tend to get the Scheme is a similar design to Douglas, but it is much rubbished. I have seen it time and time again, and I think it is smaller than Douglas, so do not compare it with Douglas in a shame and it is a shameful act to try and make disingenuous terms of size. Also do not compare it to Douglas in terms of a public petition that has gone round. So what, if people recycling. The people in Peel, or the west rather, have got into have misread it slightly? The point is it is showing a level a very good habit for many years of recycling properly. They of concern and I think we should have the common decency have been using the shed down there as their Harrods, they and humility to say, ‘Okay, yes, we recognise there are quite a have been picking and choosing what they want and leaving few people concerned here – perhaps we could have the good stuff for other people. They are in the habit of doing it. In grace and go back and have a further consultation with them Douglas, the shed in Douglas has only been open just under or see if there is an amended version we can do,’ rather than a year. The people in Douglas have not got used to that, the trying to always infernally rubbish people’s concepts. staff have not got used to it, the staff in Douglas could learn Then we have poor old Bill Dale dragged into it. Yes, an awful lot from Mrs Butler and from the western site and the man has taken the time to write a letter: so what? He is we are getting better. I have been to the Douglas shed and purporting to represent views. Should we listen to that? Yes, I have been told it is empty. Every time I go with stuff it is it could be sounded out a bit more, Eaghtyrane, and again Mr taken off me straightaway, there are people there taking it Quirk’s idea was valid in this respect in that we could have away. It is empty because it is being used. gained a little more public view on the situation and what The difference with Douglas is, I think, personally is actually people really did feel, instead of, ‘Oh, it’s a petition, the mindset of the people that use Douglas compared to the it’s rubbish,’ and the other one we always used to get thrown mindset of the people who use the western site. Because the at us, Eaghtyrane – and I am surprised we have not had it yet route has been changed round now, some Members seem to – ‘Oh, there are two names the same there, the whole lot’s all be saying that people who used to go in and put their door in duplicated, it’s invalid.’ I think it is such a shame that we have or their sink or whatever to be recycled are suddenly going to stoop to those levels to actually rubbish viewpoints that to drive up the ramp and throw it in the skip. No, they are have been, in the main – you are always going to fi nd one or not. The same people who have used the same site with the two, Eaghtyrane, but in the main – put forward genuinely and same ethos of recycling, they will go to the western site and here we are, having this kind of debate. I think the Minister they will save what they think should be recycled and put it should have good grace and listen to what is going on. When where it should be: in the recycling sheds. he winds up, I will probably get fl ayed myself, Eaghtyrane It has been mentioned about the way of the route and I – but not to worry! If he would even say, ‘Well, we will go understand the way the route is organised, you would go to back and have a little more consultation’, it would take the the big skips fi rst to dump your rubbish which goes to the heat out of the thing. incinerator and then you do the recycling. That may not be the best way. I think it is physically possible to change the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Butt. route. I discussed it with the Department before I left, that it was possible to do by making a halt sign. It means crossing Mr Butt: Thank you, sir. traffi c. It does mean an extra risk of accidents, but that is Can I just repeat some things I said earlier in the not a huge risk. It must be possible to rechange the route to adjournment debate. Firstly, I was at the meeting at St John’s make it anticlockwise. about four or fi ve weeks ago. The crowd there – I think the I think Members must beware of comparing the western Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne, called them a mob, but site with Douglas and the people of the west with the people I would not use that phrase – were aroused. It was quite in Douglas, as I have said before. The new place at Peel, obvious – (Interjection and laughter) or the new place in the west, will have extra bays, extra covered bays. It will have a bay for recycling plastics, a bay The President: Continue. I thought Mr Gawne was going to recycle plasterboard, and as recycling develops over the to query the word ‘mob’. No? Right continue, Mr Butt. years when more and more things will be recycled, hopefully, and reused, there will be space to expand and recycle other Mr Butt: They were a crowd who were aroused, Mr products as well. President, and they all had a genuine grievance about the At the moment, where they are now, vehicles have to change that was likely to happen. I think I can safely say for drive in and reverse out again. They have to shut the site those who actually were there, when we were able to speak occasionally to move wagons in and out. It is inconvenient; to the audience and get across some of the facts, the mood it is not the best use of the space there. did change somewhat, not totally, still people were unhappy, The cost, obviously, is an element. I can say it is a lot but at least we were able to get the facts over to them about cheaper than it was originally and it has been pared down what the changes were going to mean. to the basics that we have been doing. The plan was not to The problem with this whole debate, Mr President, is that have a weighbridge, but the western committee asked for the the western site has been run very well by some very good weighbridge and we have somehow found the money to put staff. I would also say the southern site is equally as well run the weighbridge in so they can use it in the future. They may by a lady called Amanda Butler, who would love to have a need, at some stage in the future, to take in small commercial re-engineered site down at the south, because she knows how waste and gain a revenue from it to help run their site. to run a site, as do the staff of the west. As to consultation, as I said before, this did not emerge The problem we have today, Mr President, I think is that from either yesterday or a few weeks ago. This happened we are all comparing this to Douglas. This Scheme when it over a three-year period where all the commissioners of, was fi rst mooted, was a lot larger than this: it was, in effect, I think, fi ve areas all agreed with the plans. I have been to nearly a Rolls-Royce, a much bigger scheme than we ended meetings with all the commissioners in rooms in St John’s

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved 1208 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day where they have all discussed the plans and approved the The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member for Douglas plans. There was public consultation in Peel, not organised North. by the Department but organised by Peel Commissioners. They had an open day in Peel – I am not sure where the venue Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. was – and the people of Peel were able to see it. It has been There has been good debate this evening both for and advertised through the planning regulations as it should be. against. I would like to simply sum up the issues here, as I There has been full consultation. see it. We have this letter well put together by Mr Dale, who Recently, I think there has been a change in one or two I congratulate for bringing this forward and copying it to all commissioners in one or two areas and suddenly the mood Members, saying that feelings are running high, giving us has changed. Mr President, people do not like change and reasons why the project should change and that is a Rolls- that is understandable. What they have now works very well Royce project, using my words and my understanding of and they do not want to change it, but I am convinced that it. when this is built they will have a much better facility, there Mr President, feelings are running high. The system will be a lot more recycling going on and a lot more reusing already works and we cannot afford much of these at this will go on as well, and I think it is a step forward for an area time. I quote the Treasury Minister, who says we have got to which is expanding in population hugely at the moment and batten down our expenditure. So if we have got something will need bigger premises anyway, so I would urge everybody that certainly, most certainly, is being opposed by many to support the motion. people in the west who use the site and they have a service at the moment, improvements or otherwise, we have not got The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft. the money; we cannot afford it. I cannot understand why this is actually on the agenda itself. It should not even be on Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. the agenda. It should have been withdrawn and the money I am a bit concerned when some Members say the transferred back through Treasury to the – people in Douglas are not the same as the people in Peel. (Interjections) Mr Watterson: The DHSS.

Mr Butt: I said they are not used to it. Mr Cannan: Hear, hear.

Mr Waft: They have obviously got problems in the Mr Houghton: – Health Department, so it can go to all Douglas one. I have been there dozens of times. those requirements, notwithstanding the hyperbaric chamber, I have to say that – but it can go to all those requirements of health. The Health Division of the Department of Health and A Member: It is new. Social Security are in big fi nancial trouble with this reciprocal agreement – big trouble – and they need additional funds and Mr Waft: You do go past it before you get to the recycling what I say, Mr President, is, the Treasury Minister is going to unit. That is a problem everybody must recognise. By the have to be bold as to the explanation he has given to us at the time you have dumped it in the skips, what you might have Budget, but so bold as to recall funds from Departments for recycled has probably gone in the skip because by the time schemes or money where there are schemes that can afford they get to the plant… The sheds are empty. They were empty to wait much longer and that is the point that has not been the last two or three times I have been there. A few odd books conveyed in this Court this evening. A simple point that if it and things, and that is about it, so there must be something is a luxury – yes it may cause improvements, but the people that… But to say the people in Peel are different… They are in the west do not want it – no different at all. I think we have got to accept, and I ask the Department to accept, that if we are paying £600,000 for a A Member: Yes, they do. recycling site… If you just dream… The amount of money you are paying for that recycling, if you cannot do it the way Mr Houghton: – let us withdraw it – a lot of the people they want it done… in the west do not. (Interjections) The work that is going Unfortunately, the Minister came over as saying, ‘That’s on there, there is a wonderful service going on there, no it. That’s the way it’s going to be done. Vote for it, or vote question about that. So let us run with the service that we have against it.’ I would like to think there would be some there in the west, look at it again when we can afford these fl exibility in the fact that there are concerns raised with the luxuries, come back with a redesign but transfer this money eastern site that perhaps might be incorporated in the western back through the Treasury to the Department of Health and site, kill two birds with the one stone, (A Member: Hear, Social Security who need the money. That is the reason why hear.) and get the person who is getting paid this £600,000 to I cannot vote for this, this evening. There is a service there, actually comply with what the people want in the area. They we need the money elsewhere. are not different people. It is the same situation. They have This is what the Treasury Minister has been propounding got the same rubbish, for heaven’s sake. All they want to do is to us. We have to listen to that. It is nothing to do with Allan recycle it as best they can, empty their rubbish and move off. Bell or John Shimmin or Eddie Teare; it is to do with priorities We seem to have got it the wrong way round in the eastern that we all understand and that is what I cannot understand site, and I would be the fi rst to agree with that because I use about this whole issue. The service is there, yes, it may be it regularly. If we could do something acknowledging that, able to improve but the money, we cannot afford for luxury but not just with a pot of paint, as my colleague has said. If projects, we cannot afford it. The Clagh Vane projects earlier it is planned properly I am sure it will be a fi ne site. have to go ahead, because that is for our people in order to Thank you, Mr President. rebuild and refurbish those properties, so that people can go

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1209 T126 back into those empty units, whether they have been rebuilt Will, in fact, the Department go away… and perhaps the or whatever, but the issue here is money for a service that is Minister, in winding up, will indicate whether it will go away already provided. That is the bottom line, Mr President. and will listen and digest the comments made in the debate, where Members have concerns about a site that replicates The President: Mr Speaker. the Douglas Amenity Site, which is evidently not acceptable, and come back with something that goes beyond what those The Speaker: Mr President, having entered this debate who want the pure status quo are happy with, which I do not with a completely open mind, and having been inclined to support if it is in fact unsafe and less than ideal. support the motion on the Order Paper, the fi rst seeds of So is there nonetheless an opportunity for middle ground? doubt were sown on receipt of the letter from Mr Dale. I just If there is and the plan before us is not simply going to be remind the Court of the title of his submission: implemented as is, then I will support it if the plan is modifi ed to take account of the concerns that have been expressed. But ‘A proposal to retain the Western Civic Amenity Site in its current state if it is not, if that is not going to happen, then the Minister and to save the Isle of Man Government unnecessary expenditure.’ must say if he is going to come back with a revised Scheme. If the Scheme can be amended and the necessary changes the latter point having been dwelt on by the previous speaker. made, then I am prepared to give it the support on the basis So, to retain the site in its current state, is that necessarily that £620,000 is the maximum and not necessarily the full desirable or feasible? Of course, when one looks at the case expenditure as represented in this plan. of the Department in the explanatory memorandum: The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. ‘What is wrong with site in its current state?’ Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. it says that: I did try and catch your eye earlier, when Mr Butt, Hon. Member of Council was putting words into my mouth and I ‘The enclosed reuse area is small and does not take full advantage of thought I could stand up and come up with this nonsense of the reuse culture of the site…’ a point of clarifi cation which obviously does not exist, or I could also try a point of order which clearly it would not have which has been well expounded upon. been, so I thought I will catch your eye and then I will debate or explain to the Hon. Court what I had actually said. ‘The site does not accord with best practice. The risk of accident to both My comments were that I had been approached by several members of the public and staff within the site are increased due to the tight layout of the site and the high volume of vehicles reversing.’ people in the west of the Isle of Man who believed that they were being intimidated by the mob and they were unable to So it would appear that the current state is not a speak and unable to represent their side of the view. I also satisfactory, there is a risk of accident, not best practice, understood, up until today, but it has been explained to me therefore something should be done. How far should it by more experienced Members of Tynwald that Ministers go? Again, the seeds of confusion and doubt are starting to had equal rights in this Hon. Court to put their views and sprout now because it says, in the letter from Mr Dale, the that their views were as valid as anybody else’s views. I vast majority of people are perfectly happy with the way it always understood that to be the case, but I am corrected by currently operates, evidently in a less than safe state, and do the Hon. Member for Onchan and in future I will recognise not want it to be changed to a system similar to the Douglas his wisdom on these matters. Amenity Site, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and various Members The reason I raised the point that there is an alternative have, in fact, said that this is exactly like the Douglas Amenity view out there, was because there is an alternative view out Site. The Department, to an extent, has refuted that and there and everybody seemed to be ignoring that alternative says that by changing the one-way-system arrangements view in their contributions – or a number of the speakers at a minimal cost – the cost of a pot of paint – some of the were. I felt it was important to put that alternative point of problems of the Douglas Amenity Site can be alleviated. view. I think it is important that we recognise that at the very So what exactly do we have here? We have some least the people in the west are divided relatively equally on people wanting the site in its current state, some wanting it this one. There are many people in favour, but equally there moderately improved to be not as bad as the Douglas site are people against. It is up to us, clearly, as politicians to make with its defi ciencies, and the Department wanting, if not a decisions based on the evidence that is before us. If Members Rolls-Royce solution, as some Members have called it, at choose to vote against them, that is for Members to do. least a full-blown solution. I would urge Members to vote in support of this, because I did not vote for the adjournment because the adjournment I believe that recycling is important for us, it is important debate sowed the confusion even further, as far as I was to get it right and the people who have spoken to me, have concerned. I thought, ‘Well, at least, following the Minister’s said that the western amenity site is too cramped and not fi t lead, let’s make a decision one way or the other this evening,’ for purpose; it is not ideal for recycling. We need a better and having listened to both sides I can see merit in both recycling centre in the West. It could well be that some of arguments, but I cannot see a persuasive case being made these people who are against this proposal are correct and by either side. that what we are talking about is a Rolls-Royce solution, (A It is, looking at the terms of the motion, quite literally that Member: Hear, hear.) but I personally do not believe that that Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum not exceeding is the case, but I am interested to hear the rest of the debate £620,000 for works to extend the Western Civic Amenity and please be assured I was not describing the people of the Site. If I vote for that, my conscience is somewhat squared West as a mob, I was merely passing on the comments that with the fact that it is not exceeding £620,000. have been passed on to me!

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The President: Mr Cregeen, Hon. Member. outside the area, as indeed have others. At that time, I sought clarifi cation of the stance of Marown Parish Commissioners Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. to check their particular views and thoughts on what was When we go back to Mr Butt, when he says it is a simple being proposed, and they were quite emphatic and assured thing as a tub of paint, you go around, well, if they have got a me that this Scheme is entirely what they wanted and that simple thing like a tub of paint wrong, what does it say about each of the areas that are represented on this committee have the rest of the design? If they have got something simple seen a reasonable increase in population. Certainly Peel has, wrong, does it make sense? Marown has had a lot, and this increase in the capacity of Mr Speaker said that it is a maximum: well, from my the Western Civic Amenity Site is setting the place up then understanding it has gone out to tender. The contractor for the next tens of years, where at the moment it is patently has been identifi ed and his tender price is just ready to be obvious that it is not really the best practicable way. Although accepted. So I very much doubt that it will go any cheaper, it has worked well for some years, the defi ciencies are there so that is why they need to go away and rethink it, because and have been recognised. the contractor is probably chomping at the bit saying let me I would like to add my congratulations to all those who get on site: £620,000. have either staffed it or those who have been on the parish If this site is unsafe, it would be shut down. It would not commissioners. I applaud Marown Commissioners, their be allowed to continue to work, if it was unsafe, so why not stance over the years on keeping rates low and providing go away and rethink it? good services, but also in the voluntary efforts that go into My concern is – and I hope Mr Gill will take this on board these various committees. I would think, as the Marown – please do not bring it to the south. That works well. Mr Commissioners, as indeed others… They are elected by Malarkey said, ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fi x it.’ If it needs to be the people and I think any elected Member for the area is enlarged in the west, just enlarge that bit, you do not have entitled to hear their views, consider if he thinks they are to copy Douglas. They are not always right. We are always right or wrong, and make up his mind. (A Member: Hear, saying in this Court, do not follow the UK, but we do not hear.) That is exactly what I am doing and I think, for all the have to follow Douglas either. If it is wrong in Douglas, do reasons I mentioned, it is entirely right to support this and not transfer it over to somewhere else. This sort of money is get on with it. a priority. I very much doubt it. It is something that would be nice to have, but I am sure many Departments round The President: Mr Earnshaw, Hon. Member. here would have more of a priority for £620,000 than more concrete – Mr Earnshaw: I would just like to say, Mr President, I am quite amazed by this debate we have had tonight. We Mr Downie: Three buses! have got all the elected representatives of the catchment area for this CA site – Mr Cregeen: – and if this does not work, the recycling will go out the window. You cannot go back to the old system, Mr Downie: Yes, spending our money! because you have spent £620,000 on a new system where you are going to drive up on a ramp, throw it into a skip or you Mr Earnshaw: – seem to be in favour of it: the local can go round the back. People have got into the system that authorities, the Member of the House of Keys for Glenfaba, we use now. You start changing that system, the chances are the Member of the House of Keys for Middle, the Member people’s attitudes will start to change. Is it simpler to drive of the House of Keys for Peel. They seem to be in favour round, throw everything in the skip and then go round to the of it. recycling or the other way round, or just stay as it is? I have never been to St John’s Civic Amenity Site, and The Minister has not been afraid to withdraw things in I probably never will (Mr Downie: Shame!) – I have never the past, if he thought it was wrong, and he can rethink it. I taken my passport out there to try and get in – so I am not hope he will rethink again. Just give it the opportunity. Just too worried whether this is built or not, and I am not sure give it the opportunity and let us vote and hopefully we vote whether the Minister will be too worried whether it is built that we do not go ahead with it and the Department will go or not, because I would think, if there is any demurring away, talk to the local authorities again and take cognisance over this tonight, he will certainly look to spend the money of what the people are saying, somewhere else in the Island.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. A Member: That’s where they want to spend it, on health! Mr Quayle: First of all, I would just like to say it seems ironic that we have spent more time in considering this than Mr Earnshaw: Well, that is fair enough, but I think Peel spending £193 million or tens of millions of pounds on a provides us with a very good example at the moment, because school; but I know this is very important, and certainly to Peel is a place that is ﬂ ourishing. (A Member: Hear, hear.) the people I represent, and the Parish of Marown is within Why is it ﬂ ourishing? Because they are looking ahead and this area of the Western Civic Amenity Site. there is investment in the town. There is investment in the To correct Mr Henderson, the Hon. Member for Douglas west of the Island. It is very attractive out there. North, he has obviously had a misrepresentation of what I In a way, this reminds me of the debate about the Ramsey said and he has not let the facts get in the way of a good story. Marina, and I do not want to reopen that. (Interjections) (Two Members: Hear, hear.) May I respectfully suggest that he (Interjections) reads Hansard, and he will then realise what Mr Downie: Don’t go down that road! I originally said, which is that I had received a limited number of concerns from some constituents and also some from Mr Malarkey: The pier!

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Mr Earnshaw: They did not want it; they did not get it. to go, we have got weighbridges underutilised. We have got (Mrs Craine: Yes!) (Laughter) They do now, they certainly one at Poortown, we have got one at Stoney Mountain and do now! yet we are installing one here on the off-chance that we may have some commercial waste to weigh when we come in and Mr Cregeen: Port St Mary! out. I would suggest we could easily do that by sending the lorry up, before it comes in or goes out to either of these. Mr Earnshaw: There are Members from all around the There is no occasion… so there are savings still to be made Island talking authoritatively and micromanaging it almost: and in a climate of ﬁ nancial constraint which we are being how it should run, which way the vehicles should go round told – and it is real – we should not need to be told, but we the site and how many men you should have stafﬁ ng the know it is real – then I think we should vote this down and various bins and everything. I really am quite amazed about if you vote it down, you are doing no harm, the thing will it and I just wanted to put those points, that you have the continue as it is. So do not think the world or the moon will Members for the west of the Island all supporting it, and we fall out of the sky by voting it down and I would urge the have got people from miles – Court to be revolutionary and vote it out.

A Member: No, we haven’t! The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member.

Mr Earnshaw: Well, in the direct area around it. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the reason why I am on my feet (Laughter) I rest my case. is my colleague here who talks about the issue of the local representatives. My concern is that the situation is that he The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. should be looking at the issue, in pressing economic times, for the justifi cation for the capital amount of money being spent. Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. As has been said, the £700,000, or six-hundred-odd thousand It is not surprising that the best debates in this Court pounds that could be spent on this would relate to the thirty- sometimes are late at night and on rubbish! (Laughter) On odd thousand pounds’ worth of revenue costs that could pay rubbish – been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the scars for the hyperbaric chamber. I think it is important that we do to prove it. The last Minister – no, the last Member who clarify that revenue and capital are quite different. I think the happens to be a Minister says that… he should remember, I problem is that my colleague, who is an ex-banker, should think, also as a Minister, that there are overriding priorities, realise that this debate is not about the local representation; fi nancial priorities take precedence this year and I think Mr it is about spending money effectively, effi ciently and where Houghton’s words need to be borne in mind. it needs to be channelled (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) and I fi nd it strange when I hear the Hon. Member for Middle that is what this debate is about. and my good friend from Glenfaba, who are the architects of I know that when we had the debate on the secondary protest votes and most successful protests leading opposition school in my constituency, which is a great thing, we had the to Government projects and the Archallagan Plantation. I Minister say, ‘Oh, well, there’s only an extra £300,000-worth would remind them they were right to get up and protest, of revenue costs,’ but of course, oops, we forgot about the that is alright for them, but if anybody has got a minority capital costs of another million pounds! We are in pressing, view, I am strongly remembered that minorities have rights, diffi cult times. I believe that the Minister needs to reassure majorities have responsibilities and I accept that premise, so this Hon. Court: are we getting a Rolls-Royce, or are we to that extent I am not going to vote for this tonight. getting a good Mini that will actually do the job? I think we I said I was waiting to hear what the Minister has to say. need to know that. I am afraid – I think we also need to know from the Minister what the revenue implications are for this new proposal, because from The Minister: I haven’t had chance yet! (Laughter and what I have heard… and I have to say I am very disappointed. interjections) I know it is me, and I know I am not popular in here, but I really would have liked the Minister… Instead of saying he Mr Lowey: I am! Because when the orchestra is playing will clarify, he should have… If there is a circular round to a tune already directed by the conductor of the orchestra, the Hon. Court, he should be saying, ‘This is wrong, that is then I am afraid I know where the… ‘Let’s compromise wrong.’ This idea of leaving it so that no-one can actually some way’, Mr Speaker says – will you listen, will you…? debate the issue, that is great in a one-party state – I will not No. I have a thing on my… I will bring it in tomorrow and mention the patronage (Interjections and laughter) – but we show you: ‘Let’s compromise – do it my way!’ (Laughter) are supposed to be a democracy and we are supposed to be That is the theme that is coming out tonight. (A Member: a parliament, and I fi nd it horrifying the way items turn up, Hear, hear.) information turns up, the day before. My fi nal entry into this debate is, we have been assured it I think, Hon. Members, this is not about an issue of is not a Rolls-Royce division, it is not a Rolls-Royce project. the west the Island, about whether the Hon. Member for Well, let me tell you, weighbridges do not come cheap, what Glenfaba represents his constituents or the Member for do they… between £40,000 and £60,000 – Middle represents his German… This is an issue that we should be scrutinising because of the economic climate we Mr Waft: They are a lot cheaper than that. are in. When we get representation – and it is alright saying they are professional people; Mr Dale is a professional. Mr Lowey: – well, they are pretty dear and the way The facts are the facts, whichever way you dress it up and I we instal them in Government, it will be round about that think the position is… what I am concerned about… I think price. the debate of allowing it to go for an adjournment could Can I tell you, two miles up the road either way you care have… but it is a done deal anyway, as the Hon. Member for

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Santon and Malew has said. I think it is wrong and I think each individual Member’s comments, there are some it is wrong that once again Ministers try and move it away fundamentals and, unusually, in agreement with the Member from the real issue. for Onchan, Mr Karran, who is making in his fi nal speech The people out there say they do not need this grand one of the real issues involved. I think there has been much scheme. The question has to be asked about prioritising, misunderstanding and unfair misrepresentation for the about the issue that we have got to learn, we can only spend public that we can expend money from a capital project and government money, taxpayers’ money once. just transfer it into a revenue scheme, but there are revenue I hope that the Hon. Minister does tell us what are the implications of moneys that are expended. extra revenue implications. I know he is hoping and praying, We have all been here long enough to realise the diffi culty like the UK Government is hoping and praying, for an in the past of expending the capital programme. Now, more increase in VAT to 21.5 per cent after a general election that than ever, Ministers are under pressure to try and bring we will be able to push all this onto local authority rates long forward capital schemes, both to keep the construction term, but the fact is we have a responsibility. This is not about industry in work but also because we know the future years the parish pump politics of the ministerial vote; this is about are going to be much more tight again and therefore we the issue of the costs, about spending good money, what the have got to get a balance between spending the money once, revenue costs are. I hope this Hon. Court will not go with spending it in the right way, and spending on schemes that the pack, they will go and accept the problems, that we want we can actually deliver. Government to talk with the people and not at the people. Much of what Government delivers is infrastructure. I have been disappointed, to an extent, that this has become The President: Mr Malarkey. combative and critical almost by dragging down other facilities to try and actually promote an agenda. The Douglas Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. system works very well. It is not perfect; nor will any scheme I will be extremely brief, Mr President. I think enough be perfect. It is a major improvement now that we have the has been said (A Member: Hear, hear.) in this debate tonight. facilities for the reuse and recycling, but we are all, I hope, (A Member: Vote!) committed to trying to improve the recycling, the reduction, What I would like to request, Mr President… As I have the reuse of our limited resources on the Island. sat here and listened to the debate… We are talking of over Throughout the United Kingdom, which is referred to in £600,000. We have all been through the bare bids in the last the comment from Mr Bill Dale… I know Bill. I spoke to two weeks. I would like to invite the Treasury Minister to him last night after I received it. Interesting, and one of my tell us what wonderful value for money this project in the frank conversations with somebody I have known for many west of the Island is to us. I see he is not in his chair at the years. He understands that he is putting forward a viewpoint moment – and he listened to my viewpoint and agrees with many of my points, and I can understand where he and the objectors are Mr Anderson: Do you want it spent in Ramsey? coming from. But in reality Bill Dale is a volunteer, along with many other people on the Island, who do a service Mr Malarkey: – I invite the Treasury Minister, who to the people by going out cleaning beaches – no money, has not spoken to the debate… We have all heard this is the no real thanks, but they live by a recycling and a caring Council of Ministers trying to push through what they want; environmental approach. So Bill Dale and many other people, I would like to hear what the Treasury Minister would like and my Department, are on the same side. All the people in to do with the £620,000 if we were not going to use it in the here, I believe, are on the same side – how do we deliver an west of the Island. environmental improvement for our people? – and we, as a Government, should set that example. The President: Mr Shimmin to reply. I could go through Bill’s paper. I have just received, earlier today, some initial notes that the layout is the same Mr Quirk: Point of order, Mr President. route in now as it will be in the proposed one, so you go past where you actually deposit your recycling stuff, or the The President: Which is, sir? stuff ultimately going for disposal… You go past that and then you go for your drop-off for reuse, so it is not different Mr Quirk: The point of order is, sir, that there is a number that way. of Members who did speak before I rose to the Chamber to Some Members talk about the amount of concrete and propose the amendment and those Members were allowed the height of it. Certainly, it facilitates people to be able to to speak a second time round, sir. lower their stuff into a skip, rather than to actually try and lift it up onto a skip. The President: No, sir. No, sir. We could spend all day talking about the differences. My responsibility and my Department’s responsibility is Mr Quirk: But I have not been able to speak to the to provide facilities for the people of the Island, not just amendment. now, not just for the next three years or fi ve years whilst the operatives who are working there come up to retirement, The President: No, you spoke when you were proposing but it is to give something which is going to be there for the the amendment, sir. next 50 years. Mr Shimmin. (Interjections) Continue Mr Shimmin. My concern about this debate is that, if this does not go ahead now, we will go back to the drawing board, we will The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. go back and reconfi gure it, but the money is not going to be A slightly unorthodox summing up I believe is necessary there next year or the year after, or the year after. It will have at this stage, Mr President. Rather than going through to fi nd its way back into the system.

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 1213 T126

Mr Houghton: That is right, because it will have gone are looking at trying to reduce the amount of environmental to health. damage we do through carbon dioxide. We are trying to reduce the costs to people by making it easier for them to The Minister: You then look at the… I really am, reduce their heating charges. We are doing an awful lot on Mr President, frustrated with Mr Houghton’s comments this Island which we should be very proud of. (A Member: repeatedly, which I think is disingenuous for the public Hear, hear.) listening, that you can just give this to the Department of One of the things that my Department is responsible for Health. (Mr Anderson: Yes.) It is not appropriate. The is waste, and every time we come to this Chamber to try public think it is that easy, and that is part of the misleading and actually get support for waste issues, we get into the approach. We are talking about a capital scheme which we old problems whereby it is a battleground. It should not be; have got to try and deliver because there are many people we are on the same message. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The in our society employed within construction. That does not Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt, is no longer, sadly, with mean we pay it at any rate, it does not mean that we do it just my Department, but has put years of his time into this area for the sake of keeping them in work – it is not job creation and has worked with professional people who have gone into – but it is providing long-term infrastructure which will a career to deal with environmental issues and waste issues. be there for decades, to do what? What is the purpose of a Anybody who knows them, these are not ordinary civil CA site? (Interjection by Mr Houghton) This is where it is servants. These are people dedicated and committed, as much really getting down to the bulk of the issue, where most Hon. or more than anybody in this Court, to actually dealing with Members would agree with us that we should enhance the improving the environment and dealing with waste problems. ability and make it easier for the public to reuse and recycle We have a new manager within the area who has come from waste products that they can actually put into a separated area the United Kingdom within the last nine months who has for reuse or recycling. (Mr Anderson: Hear, hear.) evaluated everything that we are doing here, and we are now, The current facility, and indeed the custom on the Isle of as a Court, trying to turn around and listen to a number of Man, is not yet nearly environmentally conscious enough as people who like what they have got at the moment and do not we should be and will be in the years to come. I believe it was want change: understandable. I believe and would urge the the Lord Bishop, when he came, in one of his fi rst debates Court to look beyond the short-termism and say that what we on waste, who was quite horrifi ed that things that they take are providing through the care that Mr Dudley Butt MLC has for granted now in other jurisdictions we still see as being put in, through the work that the Department’s offi cers have too much effort. My 85-year-old mother-in-law still has to been putting in for years, the work that the local authorities separate into three different bins. If she gets it wrong, it is have put in to realise the limitations of their existing facility, not emptied. Other local authorities charge and penalise for to say we are actually putting in place something which in not doing it in the right way. For this letter from Mr Dale to the future will continue to allow us to grow the amount of be talking about the UK not encouraging reduction and reuse environmental benefi t we get. underestimates the amount of charges being levied on local I am not, Mr President, going to go through all individuals, authorities for landfi ll taxes if they do not actually separate but to try and say that this is a matter that my Department at source and reduce the amount going into landfi ll. They are have gone through on behalf of and with local authorities. doing it all over the United Kingdom, all over Europe, and Could it have been done better? Always. Have the local we are still not at consciousness to do that. So we want to authorities consulted well enough? Probably not. Is what make better opportunities for recycling – not just the glass, is being proposed benefi cial for the medium and long-term the paper, but also the plastics, the batteries, the plasterboard success of our environmental credentials? Absolutely. and the other items that currently cannot be recycled in the If Hon. Members do not vote for it, that is fi ne. As Western Civic Amenity Site. (Mr Anderson: Hear, hear.) somebody said before, I can fi nd lots of other things in my We have four different civic amenity sites. The target of Department to spend my time on. I just really feel that we my Department is to get them all up to a standard where local would be missing another opportunity to move forward with authorities can fulfi ll their obligation to deal with waste, but putting another piece of the jigsaw in place, as we will do then to separate out into all of those areas. They can be reused, when we get to the Northern Civic Amenity Site, as we will we hope, but much of the stuff which goes down to these sites do when we are looking at continuation of plastics, which has can be certainly recycled, and it is not being, because people been caught up in the kerbside recycling. The people want us have not yet got a culture of separating their waste. We are to recycle more, the people want the opportunity to recycle lazy; it is too easy. Mr President, I have spent two-and-a- more, and that also includes reusing items that we no longer half years attempting to work with local non-Governmental want but feel others can. That is an attitude of mind. We can bodies to try and ensure that I do not alienate the likes of work together to encourage people to fi nd that attitude, so Mr Dale and Muriel Garland, Phil Crellin and many of you do not just put it in the bin because it is easy; you think those other people who are dedicated environmentalists who about the costs to the environment, and indeed the cost to work with Government to try and enhance our education of the rates and everybody else involved. the people. Despite what it might sound like tonight, I also One question I will try and answer for the Hon. Member do not like lecturing the public and telling them how they for Onchan, Mr Karran: yes, there will be increased costs. should live their lives, so we are attempting to try and grow Inevitably, when you have a facility like this, there is going the attitude within the Island through kerbside recycling, to be the requirement for further staffi ng issues because you through working with local authorities, working with non- are providing a much bigger service, and the success of it will Governmental bodies to try and actually get an environmental be determined by the Western Civic Amenity management message across. We are doing it through the media, we are team, which are local authorities, elected locally, working doing it through not lecturing but supporting, encouraging locally for the people locally, and they are the ones who and showing the benefi ts. should be listening to this debate and making sure they listen We had a debate earlier which talked about fuel costs. We to the people.

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved 1214 T126 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th JULY 2009 Orders of the Day

I would urge the Hon. Court to think that this is not just The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys the motion something that we should derail because we would like to carries, 15 votes for, 8 against. spend it elsewhere. Let’s be honest: next year’s budgets are going to be much tighter. This money has got an opportunity In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 2 to be now put in place for infrastructure which will be there for many years, which we will actually use for many years FOR AGAINST to strip out some of our wasteful existence and recycle that The Lord Bishop Mr Lowey Mr Waft Mr Callister material. Give us the opportunity to get on, ﬁ ne. If not, I will Mr Butt manage to come forward with other schemes in the future, Mr Turner but this one, unfortunately, would be lost. Mrs Christian Thank you, Mr President. Mr Downie Mr Crowe The President: Hon. Members, the decision is yours on Item 17, Hon. Members: Works to Extend the Western Civic The President: In the Council, Hon. Members, there Amenity Site. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; were 7 for, 2 against, Hon. Members. The motion therefore against, no. The ayes have it. A division is called. carries. Hon. Members, with the machine down, it has to be a called vote. Clerk, call the vote, please.

Voting resulted as follows: Procedural

In the Keys – Ayes 15, Noes 8 The President: Hon. Members, I think it is probably an FOR AGAINST appropriate time at which we rose. Mr Anderson Mr Cannan As a matter of form for the morning, Hon. Members, Mr Teare Mr Watterson when we recommence at ten thirty, Hon. Members, I will be Mr Quayle Mr Henderson starting at Item 22. I will be calling Item 22 at half past ten in Mr Brown Mr Houghton the morning. I understand, Hon. Members, that the Treasury Mr Gawne Mr Malarkey Minister will be leaving us again tomorrow afternoon, Mr Gill Mr Karran Mr Cretney Mr Quirk so I need to get that Item over with in the morning, Hon. Mr Braidwood Mr Cregeen Members. Mr Corkish Item 22 at ten thirty, Hon. Members, and then following Mr Shimmin the Order Paper. Mr Crookall Thank you, Hon. Members. Mrs Craine Mr Bell Mr Earnshaw The Speaker The Court adjourned at 9.48 p.m.

Western Civic Amenity Site – Debate continued – Expenditure approved Procedural