Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT
‘TIME TO REMEMBER’
Interviewee: Mr Roger Sims
Date of birth:
Place of birth:
Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Sue Lewis
Recorded by: Roger Rawcliffe
Date recorded: 24th November 2006
Topic(s): Abolition of surtax Governor Garvey Clifford Irving and Dougie Bolton The Casino Raid and incident with gun Influx of people from Africa and West Indies The Athol and Derby families Smuggling in the Isle of Man Wakes Weeks and tourism Trusts and off-shore companies Isle of Man Civil Service Administration Aristoc factory in Ramsey Ronaldsway Shoe Company Constitutional arrangements with UK Harold Kinvig Income Tax Number 2 Bill
Roger Sims - Mr S Roger Rawcliffe - RR Sue Lewis - SL 1
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S … who as you know, is … is … who thought up the bright idea of abolition of surtax.
RR Yep. And there were three candidates involved …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... is … is … Garvey himself, Clifford …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... and … and … JB.
Mr S Yes. Well, it’s a very interesting point ... err … Roger, because there are two camps; there’s the Bolton camp …
RR That’ll be with Peter Duggie [??? sp] you see. (laughter)
Mr S ... and his son Doug, will … is the chief advocate there – and Sally, his daughter, who’s … who’s an advocate, who wrote … who wrote … the piece … the Manx Worthies, and, incidentally, for the DNB …
RR Hmm, hmm
Mr S ... was published two years ago – Bolton is in that.
RR In the [unclear].
Mr S Yes. I managed to get him in it, and about fourteen other Manxmen.
RR And so Joe Mylchreest is in it.
Mr S Indeed. Umm …which poorly represents him previously, but we do have them in, and Bolton, Doug Bolton, was very enthusiastic that his father should go in …
RR Hmm.
2
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Sally wrote it and we put it forward and it’s gone in word for word. Err …
RR Same as what is in this one?
Mr S Indeed, it is the same thing.
RR Hmm.
Mr S The two camps … the other side of the camp, the other camp are the Clifford Irving school, and Clifford has a lot of supporters … err … his biggest supporter was himself. And he … I had the fortune to go and see him, and get his side of the story. One thing I would say about Clifford Irving was that he, in his latter period of his life, would not give any interviews whatsoever. Umm … but when I … when I wrote his speech for … Old House of Keys presentation, which we recorded in the ... umm … Keys Chamber, I did see him a few times, and in fact, he did tell me that he’d given all his recollections to an advocate in Dickinson Cruickshank who ... umm … had recorded it all and typed a transcript. That person is now the Second Deemster …
RR David ...
Mr S ... Deemster Doyle. So that, having heard of it, I then tracked it down, and I’ve got it here. And that’s something that should be looked at …
RR Yea.
Mr S ... err … in transcript form. So two camps; but there is a third camp, and that third camp really hasn’t been explored, and that’s Garvey.
RR Well, Garvey is the third one that I’m …
Mr S Well, in fact … err … it’s four years previous to the Income Tax Amendment Bill, of 1960, that Tynwald supported a proposal from Garvey to appoint an Income Tax Commission.
RR Well, Garvey wasn’t here, was he, then, that was the …
3
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Sorry, the umm ...
RR The previous Governor…
Mr S ... the previous Governor…
RR That was Dundas.
Mr S Yes, and this is where it gets a little complicated because, prior to Garvey’s arrival, the umm … Income Tax Commission had, in fact, been established to review policy on direct taxation. Now, along comes Garvey, and into the Commission goes Clifford …
RR Who was on the original one – Bolton was on the original one.
Mr S Bolton was on the original one. Bolton was then elevated to the Finance Committee, Chairman, and left the Income Tax Commission. My understanding is that there were four Members of Tynwald always on that commission. And it’s significant that when it finally reported back to Garvey, and Garvey, I believe, had spoken to Clifford about them looking at err … the position in respect of surtax which affected, really, relatively few people on the Island, but was something that could be tinkered with, umm … their recommendation was that it should be abolished as a means of attracting ... err … well-to-do residents, industrial investment and generally strengthening the economy of the Isle of Man. Now ... I think that what would be required here, would be two areas of research: one into the composition of the original Commission in 1956 …
RR Hmm, yes.
Mr S ... err … and in that respect, I suspect that the Court of Tynwald would have given this some debate. And I would consider also, that it would have been approved by the British Home Office.
RR Yes, because we’ve also got, coming in at that very same time, haven’t we, the sort of … constitutional change …
4
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Absolutely.
RR ... in 1958 ...
Mr S Absolutely.
RR ... which enabled them to ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... to act …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... and to vastly [unclear] ...
Mr S Indeed, quite right.
RR ... and that … that … that …
Mr S I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, Roger. I think we’ve got ‘56 – the Commission, which would have still required Home Office approval, but then we have the constitutional err … report of ’58, and the inquiry and … and the results of the Commission, which gives the Isle of Man more leeway … err … in making decisions – or decision making, albeit still involving a hefty slice of power by the Governor. But at least it’s an aspect of door-opening; and as the door opens, the opportunities can be, can be seen. So when the Commission made its recommendations to abolish surtax, umm … it was doing it in its own right.
RR That was to Garvey by this time, wasn’t it?
Mr S It was to Garvey, and, to the best of my knowledge, the initial recommendations went straight to him – not to the Finance Committee but straight to him. Now he then had to mull it over, and the recommendations were then placed before Tynwald. Umm … the proposal was actually approved after a very strong debate by 15 votes to 9 – 22nd June 1960 surtax was formally abolished.
5
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Now is that right, umm …’cos there is no legislation at that time, was there?
Mr S Well, they had to wait for a year before it was enacted.
RR ‘Cos they … they … they had a whole lot of debates in the autumn, didn’t they, in October, November …?
Mr S Yes.
RR ... which put the actual legislation ...
Mr S Back.
RR [unclear] ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... but I suppose it’s like a budget announcement, was it? ...
Mr S Indeed.
RR ... saying, ‘We’ll do it.’
Mr S Yes.
RR So it wasn’t actually ... it was proposed to be abolished, subject to legislation ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... and subject to 6th April the following year.
Mr S Yes. Now …
RR So the announcement was made on that day, which is what date is that?
SL Was that when the … was that the budget speech?
6
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Yes, the 21st June …
RR That was Garvey’s budget speech?
Mr S Yes, but it would be in his speech, he would say that it would be umm … abolished. Now, I get a little hazy here, because I think you’d need to re-visit Hansard.
SL We’ve got that ...
RR We haven’t actually read it yet, but Sue has read it …
Mr S One of the … one of the mechanisms, in fact, Clifford Irving’s err … insistence to Bolton on this, and Garvey, was that he would not accept the immediate introduction of the abolition of surtax, it would have be a one-year wait, err …
RR It’s not practical, actually, you couldn’t … you couldn’t do it immediately …
Mr S No.
RR I don’t think …
Mr S Err … I think Clifford knew that.
RR There was no legislation …
Mr S Yes.
RR Err … and it didn’t coincide with the tax year.
Mr S Yea.
SL No, and also you … you … your income and expenditure would be …
RR Very hard to get … and they’d done the budgets already …
7
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S And they’d done the budgets already, so he had to wait … err … and it wasn’t introduced straight away. Now, what is interesting is that Clifford always maintained to me, that he had to sort of prompt and prod John Bolton along initially to get his … to get him on board with this recommendation for the abolition of surtax by the err ... umm … Income Tax Commission. Umm, which is an interesting point because umm … as the Chairman of the Finance Board, of course, he had responsibility for the government’s income and expenditure and everything else; and would have been concerned, naturally, about the loss of income … err … with the abolition. But anyway, the Clifford Irving argument is, we brought it forward, we have to get John Bolton on board, because as Chairman of the Finance Committee, it was his responsibility to take it to the floor of Tynwald. And without his support, we wouldn’t have got anything anyway. But then the Bolton camp might say; well, he was enthusiastic about it to begin with … to … to … err … all along. And then there’s the Garvey … comes into it, and Garvey must have, as the Chief Executive Officer, really, said to them, in a roundabout way, ‘Well, this is what we need – you’ve got to get it through.’
RR Yes, we’ve got … we’ve talked to various people. I tried … I tell you who we’ve talked to ... umm … spoke to Brian Mylchreest, to see if … ’cos he was the agency from 1956, and the time of umm … John Paul, when Brown was …
Mr S Sure.
RR ... experienced and near to John Paul’s age, or approximately Paul’s age …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... he said he used to bounce things off him and say, ‘What do you think people will think about this?’
Mr S Hmm.
RR But he hadn’t got the executive powers by then, they were just waning, he had still some …
Mr S Hmm.
8
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... but he said, in 19 … Dundas, who he was first was ADC to, I think he took it over from Jim Cain senior …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and then, for Garvey, with whom, later, he became very friendly, he said it … that wasn’t the relationship …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... so he said he didn’t … he had nothing to add, really, because it wasn’t the sort of relationship where he would say … umm …‘Do you think that’s a good idea, Brian?’ sort of thing, because he was … he said he would have been … 1956 … he would have been forty … forty, Brian …
Mr S Hmm.
RR Garvey would have been sixty – an experienced Governor.
Mr S Hmm.
RR So … to look in Garvey’s book, he doesn’t say anything at all about it.
Mr S Nothing at all, nothing at all.
RR Extraordinary! (laughter)
Mr S No.
RR Then we spoke to Dougie, yesterday … umm … Dougie, when you talk to him, is … who was the one who told us about being put in front of John Bolton, at a committee meeting – a Finance Committee meeting – was that Dougie told … came out with that account? They weren’t there, so it’s all second hand.
Mr S Hmm, hmm.
RR [unclear] was there …
9
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and he said … one of them … who else was [unclear]. One of them, I think it must have been Dougie ... one of them had …
Mr S It wasn’t Nivison by any chance was it?
RR I didn’t speak to him ...
SL No, I don’t think so.
RR I rather lost sight of him … it must have been Dougie. Dougie wasn’t here at that time, Dougie had gone to qualify in England, he was with Pannells …
Mr S Hmm … yes, accountants.
RR ... Walkers of Liverpool …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... ‘cos, at that time, you had to go to Liverpool to become a Chartered….
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and his … the story he had, I think, was that they had a …. there was Garvey and the Finance Committee …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and Clifford, who, I think, might have been on the Finance Committee by this time.
Mr S Hmm.
RR And the John Bolton said, ‘Very busy, very busy agenda today,’ and Clifford said, ‘we’ve got the abolition of surtax.’ [unclear] busy. (laughter) So he said, ‘Well there’s really nothing else,’ he says, ‘it’s the abolition of surtax.’ And he
10
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
said from that time on, from that committee meeting, John Bolton was completely on side.
Mr S Absolutely, that’s right, yes.
RR And it was … so that was … now this is the next question, which is, I’ve always … I … I remember at the time …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... talking to people – I wasn’t living here, ‘cos, 1949 … 1969 I was engaged and from then onwards I came regularly and I talked to lots of people …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... like Brian Mylchreest, like Jack Kirkpatrick, who was very much in business then …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... Deemster Knox, and all these sort of … that sort of circle … ‘cos they were … my mother-in-law’s circle of friends. So … and they were all talking about these things. And there were … the recollection that I have of that is that the names of Garvey and Bolton were the ones that were mentioned …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and they may be wrong – I’m not saying they’re right.
Mr S Hmm.
RR ‘Cos that’s how it was perceived.
Mr S Yes.
RR But Garvey had had the right idea, I mean, Garvey was a great – one of the points that were made, which was in his book, is that he’s a great ‘ideas’ man ...
11
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and he came up with some of the ideas that were fairly crazy. And some of them perhaps – refinery … at the Point of Ayre …
Mr S Yes, the oil refinery. I think the thing to remember about Garvey as well, Roger, err … is that he … he wasn’t a figurehead, he was a man who involved himself very actively …
RR He was a chief executive or something like that …
Mr S ... in the … in the promotion of the Island and its economic prosperity. He wasn’t just prepared to sit back …
RR He wasn’t just an administrator ...
Mr S No, he was an ‘ideas’ person …
RR He was that.
Mr S ... and I think he suffered some frustration, I think that would have to be … umm … qualified obviously, but he was a person who had ideas, and he saw opportunities and the important opportunities I suggest at that time, were the rapidly contracting overseas possessions in Africa, the end of Empire and independence to large tracts of the African subcontinent, where people were living who had been administrators and business people, who naturally would want to return to the United Kingdom, but ... return to high taxation?
RR And [unclear] anyways …
Mr S They had…..
RR ... they’d be coming here….
Mr S Yes.
RR ... for that sort of person – makes sense.
12
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Yes.
RR And, and it’s easier because you’ve got a smaller community.
Mr S Yes. And he, I think, I think he … he should take credit for that, because, to a large degree, even if these people came and built up awful bungalows, and were … there was almost a umm … a lapse in planning taste (laughter) when they built these horrible bungalows, that, today are a blot on the landscape, at least they paid for plumbers and builders and the like …
RR You’re right.
Mr S ... you know – it brought jobs and it brought incomes.
RR They weren’t all like that, I mean, there were some quite good conversions, ‘cos I … I remember when I was … 1959 – before any of this had happened, and I remember going round the Island with Elizabeth, seeing … and I’d been here ten years before … fine …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... everything was dowdy, half the stuff was derelict, everything needed paint ...
Mr S Yes, looking rather worse for wear … moribund …
RR Jim Cain, in about 1956, came – ‘cos Walkers was Liverpool in the Isle of Man …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and he was a Walkers, Liverpool, partner, and he came over here, and he got out of them a complete undertaking that if the Isle of Man didn’t work out, he would go back. Dougie Bolton couldn’t …
Mr S He’d agreed that beforehand …
RR Yea.
13
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S ... it seemed a very sensible escape clause (laughter)…
RR Dougie Bolton couldn’t go to his father’s firm …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... because it wanted the work … umm … Barry Stanley and Bill Ashton …’til this has happened, there wasn’t enough work for them, either, on a professional level, there was really … it was dead …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... umm …’cos there were some things that happened, like Ronaldsway Aircraft Company – had already happened …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... manufacturing had started to come before this…
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... umm … and it continued. But he was an ideas man, I mean, the Casino; now the Casino had been ... I think had been raised before Garvey …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... Garvey got it in. There was the Ayres thing, which didn’t happen …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... but it was … what we are talking about is bubbling with ideas, trying to promote the Island … and there was something else, someone told us – Brian Mylchreest, I think …
Mr S Yes, he was … he was an absolute asset. I mean, when you consider that you can ... umm … at that time, expect little from a Governor, I mean, he is the
14
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Chief Executive, so he’s going to be a hands-on in Tynwald, but that’s a constitutional role.
RR It was notes and stamps, wasn’t it, he was very keen on.
Mr S Bank notes, umm … well he … I think … I think … I think Garvey realised that having Manx banknotes, and postage stamps that identified the Isle of Man, even if they were just small stamps, like the Scottish stamp …
RR The first ones were actually UK …’cos I used to buy them, and use them in England …
Mr S They were – they just had three legs on the corner …
RR That’s right …
Mr S Yes, they were just like a normal stamp – they were the Manx version of the Scottish stamp.
RR Yea, and … and … the Channel Islands had them and Scotland had them, and Ireland had them …
Mr S Yes, but it’s a pretty simple suggestion which has a big impact.
RR Hmm – well, from a promotional point of view …
Mr S From a promotional perspective …
RR ... just like this … this branding, I mean … it was … a branding effort …
Mr S Yes, it was.
RR ... apart from the fact that the notes meant that the Isle of Man Government had a free loan of the noteage. (laughter)
Mr S Well, I … I … I hold the personal view that Garvey was the most important governor and the best governor in terms of Manx prosperity since Lock …
15
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Yes, I entirely agree! Those are the two, aren’t they?
Mr S Those are the two. They … they … they are umm … men representative … err … of the very fine tradition of public service, but also with ideas, and not completely drown in paper and Minutes and memoir.
RR That’s right.
Mr S They were able to see what was needed and move forward.
RR And he’d done some of it in, I think, in Fiji.
SL He had. There’s an awful lot on the internet about his work in Fiji …
Mr S Yes.
SL ... it’s all been written about …
Mr S Yes.
RR Hmm.
SL ... he’s clearly seen as instrumental in … in the way that place has gone forward.
RR Brian Mylchreest was taken to see, when he was in Fiji, went to talk to people in the government who … who’d known him and … sort of VIP … I think Brian said, on that particular point, that Garvey said to him either then, or maybe later, that the British Government, his boss if you like …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... was not amused (laughter)…
Mr S No, I …
RR ... by all this promotion, I mean, your job isn’t to … to … to be the sales representative of the Isle of Man.
16
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Yes, I can see the Home Office taking quite a dim view.
RR Well they did.
Mr S Err … when you consider that in itself is a … is a suppressant, (laughter) to initiative and err … innovation, umm … I think that’s to his credit as well.
RR Oh, absolutely!
Mr S So we have a personality in Garvey which is err … which is … which is ideas based. He’s not frightened of authority, he’s not going to be stamped down, he sees simple things having a big impact – stamps, notes, but then he sees opportunities abroad. He knows the Empire, he knows the colonies ... he sees them as a … as a … as a source of residency. Umm … and they are bringing people in who are not necessarily concerned about having any work.
RR Yes, you see if I’d … if I’d …
Mr S And that’s important.
RR ... if I’d had to go back on this particular matter …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... surtax matter, before I started this…
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... before I’d talked to anybody about it; I would have said it was Garvey’s idea.
Mr S Hmm.
RR So we’ve got … now, talking to Dougie Bolton …
Mr S Hmm.
17
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... his view was that probably … it’s going to be difficult to say … it was so and so’s idea …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... what he thinks it was, was this … this trio …
Mr S I believe that’s the sort of … yea.
RR ... somewhere, sort of coming out of someone’s head …
Mr S I …
RR ... and saying, ‘That’s a good idea!’
Mr S Well, I … I have umm … I have my own view on this, and it’s totally unsupported by documentary evidence.
RR You’ve seen the transcripts of David’s?
Mr S I have, and in fact … umm … although he alludes to it, he doesn’t go into any detail, but what I think happened was, that once the Income Tax Commission had been set up, it did very little for the period before Garvey’s arrival.
RR Yes.
Mr S Garvey saw his existence as a means to influence the Finance Committee. And I think he convened meetings of the Income Tax Commission – probably at Government House – and there he talked them through what might be possible, what he knew of economic umm … development ideas … umm … and I think, from those meetings, came a consensus among the Commission – and let’s face it, it was only a small Commission, and it only had four Members of Tynwald on it – that Commission, I think, formed a pretty solid view that this was a guy talking sense, and they were then charged with the idea of putting this recommendation to forward and getting Bolton on board. And I think then it became Bolton, Irving, Garvey – to some degree Nivison, and of course, the role played by the Attorney General in all of this, cannot be overlooked.
18
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Was he [unclear]?
Mr S Oh, when I say – I forget his name, he was the chap who umm … who was before … what was his name – was it Moore?
RR Wasn’t George Moore, was it?
Mr S Might have been.
RR Martin’s father?
Mr S It might have been George Moore – you’d need to check that. Umm … but of course, all of this …
RR ‘Cos he was a [unclear] ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... at some stage.
Mr S Well all of this required, of course, the Attorney General’s blessing, because it’s no good umm … you know, going down some route if it ain’t going to materialise. Err … and the important thing is as well, that Garvey had the advantage of umm … having umm … enquiry already being begun into the constitution …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... the constitution….
RR But that is already reporting by the time you …
Mr S And that was reported, so he had that decision making ability, and more freedom had been given by London …
RR Umm.
19
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S ... so all in all it was a better scenario than previously. But I think you are right, I think it became a consensus within the Income Tax Commission, based on discussions.
RR I think that’s … I suspect that’s how it happened – we shall not know …
Mr S No.
RR But that’s the sort of way I … want to suggest it could have happened.
Mr S Hmm.
RR And I’m sure you’re right. We’ve got, I think, three key people who’ve covered Bolton and … and Garvey …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... I’ve always believed that it was Garvey’s idea. Now I only do that by what I heard people saying at the time …
Mr S Hmm … if it’s …
RR I mean – I was only here occasionally …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... I mean I was not a …
Mr S Well, you see …
RR But asking people …
Mr S They’re not as clear …
RR No, they’re not …
Mr S No.
20
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR But they’ve been … forty years …
Mr S Well, let’s look at it logically, Roger. We’ve got the three principal players. Bolton’s the … Chairman of the Finance Committee, balancing the books was precarious, and every penny of income …
RR Yes.
Mr S ... and every penny of income was needed …
RR They thought they were going bust!
Mr S Yea. Now, Irving was, in the early part of his career, and emigrated to the Tax Commission; again, highly conscious that the … fiscal policy of the government had to bring in the income to meet the expenditure of government and they were not in a healthy position. It takes a lot of hindsight to … it takes a lot of foresight to think; we can increase prosperity by reducing income.
RR Hmm.
Mr S But then you’ve got the practicalities – well, if we reduce it, we can’t spend as much.
RR Hmm.
Mr S So Bolton emm … ‘No.’ Irving might have been ‘Ummm.’ Garvey had none of those fears! He was … he could make the case, I think, at least on the attraction of the policy, for bringing people to the Isle of Man. And I think he … he convinced that Income Tax Commission that they could do themselves a big favour by abolishing a tax that was paid by relatively few people and concerned …
RR What did we say the total amount was?
SL £385,000.
RR How many?
21
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
SL £385,000.
RR £385,000 surtax …
Mr S And it’s … but it’s a big slice to lose …
SL It was at that time.
RR It was a big slice.
Mr S But, if you bring in people, because they like the idea of not paying it, they’re still going to spend on services and goods.
RR Umm.
Mr S And they are going to create jobs. Because if the plumber gets to many jobs, he’s going to employ another plumber ... err … the baker might need an assistant and the builder might need an assistant …
RR For all this wonderful work for doing up houses and building bungalows.
Mr S Exactly.
RR All of this that came fairly quickly.
Mr S Yea – and the remarkable thing is it all was right!
RR Hmm.
Mr S And when surtax was finally abolished, we saw, coming into the Island, people from the colonial processions in Africa particularly, and I might say, from the West Indies.
RR The West Indies ones are interesting …
Mr S Hmm.
22
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... ‘cos one of the … one of the … done a … did a chapter on … already did it, I did this sitting off Barbados recently. Did you see ‘Pitcairn’ last night?
SL Saw a bit of it, yes.
RR The naughty Christians. (laughter) There were all the naughty Christians, the ones who had it off with three year olds was the worst case ...
Mr S Oh God!
RR ... when the three year old was speaking and saying how awful it was and they were saying, ‘Oh well, we always did that sort of thing [unclear] – there’s nothing illegal about it!’ and produced a scrappy bit of paper and said, ‘here’s the law of Pitcairn, says you’re not allowed to do to people over the age of twelve – under the age of twelve is not mentioned in it!’ (laughter)
Mr S Hmm.
RR Curious. Anyway, all these Christians – he was a Stephen Christian.
Mr S Hmm.
RR I was off there, and I … I wrote the chapter on the built environment, and the consequences of residents and of offices, of course, there’s two bits to it ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and most the buildings – you know, I’ve been watching it all this time and I’m …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... an architect who I particularly like, interesting lecture on, so I’ve … but one of the bits that comes out, of course, is the people who go and live in these houses …
Mr S Hmm.
23
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... and there’s wonderful stories about, ‘Oh, tragedies happen to me!’ What’s the tragedy?’ ‘I’ve got a native moving in next door.’ And it was a Manx advocate in Maughold!
Mr S (laughter) Oh, God’s truth!!!
RR And the … and we went to a dinner party; Rosemary Penn was there, and my wife – both brought up together, more or less, ‘cos both were only daughters of rather elderly parents living round the corner; and this woman said, ‘this is Mrs Audrey Topham-Wood [sp ???]’ – she’s now died, but she was a commissioner of err … Ballaugh …
Mr S That’s a pretty impressive name, isn’t it? (laughter)
RR ... made a whole lot of sweeping statements about …
Mr S Woodhouse.
RR ... about the Manx. And she … admitted …‘Oh, I’m speaking in the presence of the natives.’ And Elizabeth said something quite unspeakable (laughter) about what she should do – hang from the chandeliers and scratch her bottom, because that’s what we natives do! (laughter)
Mr S They – to say they were unlike the Romans because they came but they did not conquer, err … (laughter)
RR But the West Indians didn’t do that.
Mr S No.
RR Africans did that.
Mr S No.
RR The English and the Anglo Irish did it.
24
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S It’s interesting that, Roger, because I’ve heard some extremely flattering comments about people that came here from Barbados.
RR The … the … West Indies ...
Mr S Yep.
RR ... fine, I’ve known a lot of West Indies here, and they were all delightful.
Mr S Yes.
RR I’ve known a number of people, most of them settled in the north, from different African countries, and they were almost all … stood away from it.
Mr S Today, that attraction to Africa continues, of course, in the presence of South Africans.
RR I know … I know and they behave in their own curious manner, too. And if you go to Australia, they complain in exactly the same way, ‘cos they’re all moving in there. New Zealand – they’re fed-up with them, because there’s an arrogance, and a clicking of the fingers, as they say, ‘Boy, come here!’
Mr S Well, I think ...
RR You’ve got the … who was it? A wonderful story …
SL Oh yes, yes … I must have told you this one before?
Mr S No, you haven’t.
SL Oh, it was … umm … a Manxman who went away to join the army and then when he came back in ’69 went into a butcher’s shop … working in a butcher’s shop and he told me that … you know, it was all the ‘When I’s’ and that sort of thing, you know, and this woman came in and she would only ever be served by the owner of the shop. So she came and she said, ‘Where is Mr so and so?’ And he said, ‘I’m sorry, he’s not here at the moment. Can we help you madam?’ And she said, ‘Oh, no, no, no, I shall wait.’ So she went and sat in the corner. And
25
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
after a considerable time, said, ‘When will Mr so and so be returning?’ And so the guy behind the counter looked sideways, looks at the calendar and says, ‘In about ten days – he’s in Tenerife at the moment.’ (laughter)
RR But the … do you remember the publishing of the umm … it was about the Peel Castle dig and the book …
Mr S Yea.
RR ... and how Liverpool University lost all the text …
Mr S Hmm … hmm.
RR ... and we … how … I was cross with Martin on this; we had contracted – or they had contracted with us to do it …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and they went and got a whole lot more money and gave it to them, which I thought was … was wholly unnecessary. Martin was not very pleased, but William Caine and err … anyway, they had a grand dance in Lorne House – do you know that? Do you remember that? And I remember April Agnew- Somerville said – we’d been here for 20 years, for goodness sake by this time – ‘We’ll show these Manx how to do a parlour dance!’
Mr S Good heavens!
RR And ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and it’s not just the Africans …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... there’s a certain sort of English person ...
26
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... or Scottish, probably, and the English …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and the Anglo-Irish …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... are just as bad as the Africans, but in a different way.
Mr S Yes, I … I … I’m sure that’s right. Umm …
RR I’m pure English, but I really, I shudder when I …
Mr S Yes, it’s embarrassing, isn’t it? Yes, I’m sure we’ve had embarrassing moments with …
RR But never the West Indies.
Mr S … with the less than tactful brigade …
SL Absolutely.
RR But I suppose West Indies, living on islands as a start, in a sense they’d have more … more of an idea of what islands … how islands tick.
Mr S Well I think … I think also, that if you … if you look at the social composition, for example, of Barbados, then it is a very integrated society.
RR Hmm – a most successful country.
Mr S It’s not even been any … any … any fight on the part of the indigenous white population there, not to adopt the West Indian accent.
RR Hmm.
27
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S They could have fought that – they haven’t. It’s … it … but yet there were people around who thought, well when Barbados got independence – I use Barbados as an example – err … it’s the end of British Rule, things will never be the same … err …
RR They had a tricky time, didn’t they, for a while, in Barbados? There was … there was umm …
Mr S They had in Jamaica, as well, yes…. in Jamaica.
RR [unclear] had a hell of a time and still got it. My son is married to a coal-black Jamaican and … her family … the middle-class black families in Jamaica are at risk …
Mr S Hmmm.
RR ... ‘cos of these … there are hooligans who, in Kingston, who …
Mr S The Yardies …
RR ... dreadful … umm …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... umm … and anybody … I know quite a lot of white families there and … what’s it called … Terry Roper …
Mr S Hmm.
RR He was a … old planting family of …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... of Jamaica … he … was a senior partner of Price Waterhouse in Trinidad …
Mr S Hmm.
28
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... for his working life ... but Trinidad … Trinidad’s had trouble, too. Barbados has come out very well – I think Antigua has come out quite well.
Mr S Yea, they have. I mean Barbados is the most … is the best, I think.
RR I think so.
Mr S I think so. And the umm … well, I mean the links we have with … I mean, the links I have, for example, with the Barbados museum, umm … they … they are extremely concerned about their culture and it’s both black and white. They … they … they do live as one community.
RR Yea, and then you get to Bermuda, which is ... still ... it’s just two communities.
Mr S Totally different, totally different.
RR One … again, I know quite a lot about that, ‘cos quite a lot of the children have [unclear] ...
Mr S Yea.
RR ... liked [unclear] and came to Stowe [???].
Mr S Hmm.
RR My son worked there and …
Mr S You’d have them there, Roger.
RR Hmm.
Mr S Anyway, just returning … the point … the real point I’m making is that, where you have an intelligent and creative Governor, err … as you had in Garvey – he’s an ideas man, he’s putting forward ideas that he sees as worthy of consideration for future prosperity of the Isle of Man. He’s inherited the mantle very ably of Loch, and before that, you had this awful succession of … of real ‘no hopers,’ umm … which is a long period …
29
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR With all the Governors.
Mr S Some worse than others … Butler was the worst.
RR Yes, but even going back … the Athols did nothing for the Island, either.
Mr S No, they didn’t, they were too [unclear].
RR The last ones that did anything for the Island were the Derbys. The Derbys were … period of rule was, in many ways, quite successful I think. But then, before the Derbys you had no-hopers again.
Mr S You had. What I … I’m going to make a suggestion now – I’d like you to read Kit Gawne’s PhD …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... on the economic …
RR We’ve got it.
SL Got it – I’ve done it …
RR I’ve got it.
SL You’ve got all the notes.
RR I haven’t read it yet.
SL I’ve done the whole thing.
RR I’ve read bits.
SL I’ve … I’ve précised the whole lot for him.
RR I haven’t even read everything you’ve given me yet, because … because I’ve got to come to that question.
30
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR Umm … but I haven’t come to that question, ‘cos I’ve got to leave that …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... what I’ve tried to do … tell you what I’ve tried to do; I’ve done a chapter on the building, so that’s a stand-alone one, in a way; and it does slot in, it’s part of the story, but it was easy to do without reference to anything. I can check dates and things, ‘cos it’s not difficult. I’m doing … I’m really doing from smuggling to the present day …
Mr S Hmm.
RR The first chapter’s been doing smuggling and debtors and [unclear] officers and tourism, which, if you like, are things that happened in the Island. Smuggling, perhaps, was the first thing that happened in the Island which brought some prosperity to the Island, because of an anomaly ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and all of those, in a way, are anomalies – even tourism is an anomaly …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... in the context of the 19th century ‘cos it was the exotic destination for the working class of Lancashire. Also, simultaneously, which a lot of people forget, I think, it was … it was a place where quite a lot of Lancashire and Cumberland people had their summer house …
Mr S Yes, there were quite a few.
RR ... like The Groves at umm … The Gibbs …
Mr S Hmm … hmm.
31
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... yes, The Gibbs is another example, and The Groves at The Colony, The Groves …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and we were talking about the later days – the Harpers had one.
Mr S Hmm.
RR I’m going back to 1913 … they came over every summer ... with the family ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... twice a year, Easter and summer …
SL Six to eight weeks in the summer.
RR So it’s not just the Wakes weeks, err … not over the mass. Anyway, that then … what we’re getting to now is, that’s it. Although some people in the Isle of Man refuse to acknowledge it …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... perhaps even now. But certainly not … I mean you couldn’t do anything with the promenade.
Mr S Hmm.
RR The consequences all for it being pulled down, but you couldn’t do anything with the promenade because you were going to lose these beds ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and I did the audit of The Piccadilly Hotel, for example, and one or two other things, and how anybody kept going, I don’t know! They were charging £6.50 dinner, bed and breakfast for two, and then they were full two weeks a year. I mean, the whole thing was just hopeless! But err … (laughter) Tynwald, in
32
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
huge numbers, would not accept that. And in 1960, even more so, ‘cos his [unclear] Burke says is, ‘Try harder!’
Mr S Hmm.
RR This is the over–riding theme you meet but the…amongst other thing about Garvey and the abolition of surtax …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... brings us onto what the book is about ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... is that … and I’ve got re-read the Tynwald debate – haven’t really got … I used to teach this course, you know, that you … you teach on occasionally …
Mr S Yes.
RR I … I’ve got someone who might do it for me now …
Mr S Yes.
RR (laughter) ... she’s learning away like anything … because I just found that too … err ... too tiring. But there’s either nothing, or almost nothing, to do with finance sector in that. This was not … this was to do with new residents.
Mr S Hmm … absolutely.
RR Err …
Mr S Well …
RR But talking to people at the time, they did say … they did talk about these other things. I remember people saying, ‘Why can’t we do what Jersey is doing?’ ...
Mr S Hmm.
33
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... because Jersey was already doing unit trust types of things.
Mr S Hmm.
RR Talking to Dursley this morning, Dursley … you see, my own feeling, in talking to the first lot of people we talked to … I only came here at the end of 1979, by which time we were already for the sort of accelerator, but … and I’ve always slightly thought that people started to do trusts and off-shore companies and things early on; but I don’t think they did very much. Dursley had some investment funds, and his investment funds were for these guys who came out of Africa.
Mr S Yes they were. And umm … I think they were umm … umm … they were a sort of clever use of, not only Manx law, but err … [unclear] Australia.
RR Is that what he did a whole lot … two other firms in Australia?
Mr S In Australia – and … and these firms were perfectly legal providing that you stick within the limits of what the income bearing of the trusts were.
RR Hmm.
Mr S I don’t profess to understand the mechanism, it’s … it’s a long while since I’ve looked at it, and my recollections are hazy, but my understanding is, that the principle of unit trust saving for the masses of people in the 1960s is an acceptable form of saving for the future, was actually a by-product of these specialist unit trusts or trusts that were tailored to people who to live here again. So you had an incentive to set them up, because the people were coming with their assets.
RR He says that the first two he set up, which were investment trusts, first of all they were companies …
Mr S Sorry, I say unit trusts, but of course the units were based on the investment potential of the trusts … yes …
RR Well, there’s two varieties, there’s … there’s investment trusts …
34
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... which are, essentially, a company which holds investments and you buy the shares of the company and the shares go up and down … broadly speaking …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... ‘cos they don’t reflect the underlying price precisely …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... there is usually a … a discount …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... umm … and he set up an income one and a … and a capital one for people who come to the Isle of Man with all sorts of unsuitable gilts; and who wanted to broaden …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... or he talked to them and said, ‘Well, you know, you shouldn’t be sitting in gilts, you should have a broader portfolio.’
Mr S Yea.
RR So there’s actually those two. Then he did the unit trusts which are….
Mr S With Jim Slater.
RR With Jim Slater …
Mr S Yea.
RR [unclear] Jim Slater.
Mr S Hmm.
35
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Typical Jim Slater coming over and putting Charles Cain …
Mr S Well, he was his manager at Finch Road, I think.
RR That’s right, yes.
Mr S Hmm.
RR So I’m seeing Charles on … Charles [unclear] something else then.
Mr S Well I’m sure he’ll have a lot to say about it.
RR But the … so that’s ... as early as 1964 …
Mr S Yea.
RR ... so that’s … sooner than I’d thought.
Mr S Well, you know …
RR The other thing is that it’s still quite slow coming …
Mr S Yes, yes they are. The other thing, of course, is the whole mechanism of government finances, because the auditing, as you know only too well, Roger, had gone away from the umm … Audit Commission – Audit Board in … in London, of government accounts to … umm … Walkers … Walkers. The use of merchant banks, for example, merchant banking facilities, umm … was introduced, I think in the 19 … I think it was 1965 …
RR Well, the first … the first … well, the first merchant bank here was 1972 …
Mr S And that was umm ….
RR [unclear] Hunter …
Mr S That’s right.
36
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... and within a month or so ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... also Slater Walker ...
Mr S Slater Walker, yes.
RR ... with Charles in charge. Those two came and … [unclear] came because Howard Pearson, who had been in umm … National Provincial …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... retired but became Chairman of the Isle of Man Bank which had just been acquired by National Provincial …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... and he … he got Tony Solomon, I think his name was ... err … he said we could do with a merchant bank in the Island, so they came. And then Slater Walker came; then other people came – I’ve forgotten – I’ve got Mark’s book, it’s all set out in complete detail there.
Mr S Yes, it’s a text book.
RR Yep – it’s remarkable … it’s … it’s jolly useful that banking book. Some of his books are a bit heavier, but that’s one of his best ones …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and you’ve got all the dates.
Mr S Hmm. Well, actually it’s a wonderful umm …. very exciting period. But my … my own assessment is back to Garvey. And I keep harping on about the Income Tax Commission. If Garvey was going [unclear], it had to be through the Commission ...
37
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... because from the Commission he could make recommendations for tinkering with the Income Tax Acts of 19 ...
End of side 1
Mr S … existing Bill/Acts …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... because of course they were integrated into the ’46 … the surtax came in in ’46. The Income Tax Act of 1946 …
RR So when it actually came in …
Mr S Yes, in 1946.
RR So it was as late as that?
Mr S Yes. And it was going to be kept into the 1960 Act. Err … but of course the … it wasn’t, because of course it was … it was … it was abolished. But the mechanism of getting it through Tynwald was certainly right into Bolton’s hands after Irving had convinced him that he should … because Clifford maintained that … that Bolton said, ‘Well, you can do it.’ And Clifford said, ‘No, it’s not my job to do it – it’s your job, you’re the Chairman of the Finance Committee,’ and that had been accepted by Bolton. But … but however they managed it between them, and they did a very good job – they were a good double act – Nivison came in and the Attorney General was very helpful, but behind the scenes – and this is my own personal view – was Garvey.
RR I’m … I’m sure Garvey …
Mr S Err … that is my view, and I … I … I don’t remain … I don’t – I remain fairly firm on that, Roger.
RR Hmm, hmm … I’ve always felt that. When I started on this particular theme …
38
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR I wasn’t going to get far with that feeling …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and we’re never going to be able to … to demonstrate anybody, but I think I can write that in such a way that umm …
SL I think if you just dealt with the kind of guy he was, and, you know, the stuff that you’ve got from Fiji and use the experience and the way he … his … his … you know …
Mr S Hmm.
RR Absolutely. Oh, I mean, that’s for sure, because when dealing with this bit, umm … I’m dealing with that, but I’m also dealing with what else was going on … umm … because I would have been dealing …
Mr S Constitutional …
RR err … well, the constitution is important, but I also will be dealing with umm … what happened before then. Manufacturing is important because you’ve got Ronaldsway Aircraft Company, apart from anything else, which, on its own, transformed …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and we’ve got … this is the thing, there’s that book, ‘This was the News,’ – I’m not quite sure how reliable that is (laughter) or ‘Here is the News,’ ‘cos it looks like it’s actually the newspapers which were making … aren’t terribly reliable, but it looks like edited versions or Terry Cringle’s versions, (laughter) excerpts from newspapers, but it gives quite useful sort of triggers, and there is, for example, one of Garvey’s speeches, I think it is, saying how many manufacturing companies were …
Mr S Hmm.
39
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... when he retired from the Island compared with how many there were in the end – we don’t [unclear].
Mr S Well, this is very useful.
RR So this is all good stuff.
Mr S Yes.
RR So there’s all that going on.
Mr S Hmm.
RR Umm there’s these … there’s The Casino going on …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and I’ve got a lovely bit … I’ve got The Casino raid, which I’ve already … I’ve already …
Mr S Well, Jim Cain … Jim Cain can fill you in on that one …
RR Oh I know, I know, I’ve had that from everybody …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... but the funny bit to tuck in …
SL A classic!
RR ... I had it from Dougie Bolton….
SL It’s wonderful.
RR ... oh it’s two wonderful Dougie Bolton stories. I mean, I’ve got it … it’s in the proceedings of National History Society …
40
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... umm … in my …
Mr S On Accountancy, yes.
RR I’ve got that in there, but, you know …
Mr S It’s a very good article.
RR ... but you know, laid in there, it’s a bit of light relief in the middle of the talk … but I’ve got two extra bits. The first was Dougie Bolton, was the auditor of the ... err [unclear] … so he was there that evening. He said the thing that really, he said, you could not believe it, the [unclear] dead on … heads on the table …
SL Heads on the table.
RR ... they were all Pannell’s people or Walker’s people were buzzing around, counting all bits of paper. There’s wonderful stories that … in my article that Don Newby gave me … gave me the basis of most of the article – they opened the safe to find something or other, to find the money or that sort of thing, there was all sorts in there – a pistol! (laughter)
Mr S A revolver.
RR Dougie Bolton said he – one of these guys from Nevada – this is one of Mrs Saul’s henchmen said, ‘You’re to sign the audit.’ Err … so he said, ‘I can’t sign the audit.’ And they produced a pistol and held it to his head and said, ‘You’re signing the audit!’
Mr S Ooooh!
RR And that’s going in – this is the colourful stuff that we get (laughter) but the other thing about The Casino raid, he said they’re all [unclear] and the advocate to Mrs Saul and that gang was John Crellin …
Mr S Hmm.
41
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... he must have been on a TA weekend, grew a beard, leaned forward, ‘What have I done?’ (laughter) So well, always in [unclear] (laughter) – Captain Crellin (laughter) must have been. Really it….as it turns out [unclear] get it, the sea captain man [unclear]. So that’s going in …. Umm … I mean, things like … the brewery, when I was doing the brewery a lot of this came – Tim did quite a lot of that, but this is now getting into my sphere … of actual knowledge …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... but we built oh that appalling wing onto Castle Mona. I mean, the idea was the right idea, but it was badly done.
Mr S Yes, which is awful.
RR Err – it looks awful now, it did look, and it always looked pretty awful on that wonderful building …
Mr S Hmm.
RR Anyway, umm … so that was all going on, and then we … then we let them use it, because they had nowhere to go. Umm … and then you get people like Bill Kerruish comes into this picture …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ‘cos Bill Kerruish … umm … tried to buy my mother-in-law’s shares to the benefit of The Palace at Derby Castle Ltd …
Mr S Hmm.
RR to … then you get people like Judah Binstock and Tom Whipp all getting involved in this particular story [unclear] ... you’re getting all the colourful coves.
Mr S I mean, doubtless, Roger …
RR And then Douglas Clip [??? sp], of course.
42
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S ... yes. In the … the … painting the err … backdrop to all of this, of course, is unemployment …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... emm ... the fact that the Manx economy is based essentially on a … on a very short summer season.
RR Hmm.
Mr S Men are sent off the Island to work in fields and in agriculture …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... err … doing …
RR And winter work schemes.
Mr S Winter works schemes, and that, in fact, opportunities for anybody were extremely limited.
RR And the same with anybody with education – had to go off Island to get that sort of work ...
Mr S Hmm, they had …
RR ... with the exception of a handful of advocates ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... and even some like Barry Stanley couldn’t get it …
Mr S Yes.
RR Colin Fick was a judge in Uganda.
Mr S Yes.
43
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Did you ever meet Colin Fick? That was another colourful character … (laughter)
Mr S Well, it’s very interesting looking in the year books … umm … for the Isle of Man. The size of the Civil Service was tiny.
RR Hmm.
Mr S The salaries of the officials are given, and they were the exulted few …
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... they were the safest people on the Island.
RR Hmm.
Mr S The administration was tiny … umm … you can quickly – in fact, at a glance, look at the two pages if … if it is two pages of civil servants and the positions that they occupy and their salaries and realise that err … the administration was err … was … was … is reflective of how the economy was – it was flat.
RR When … when I came here and did the audit of things like the Highway Board and the Harbour Board in 1980, umm … half of them weren’t doing any work anyway! (laughter) ... sitting down … the Highway Board had to build … terribly nice chap … not doing anything at all, but charming. He had a secretary who spent her time on the telephone when she was not doing her nails; (laughter) she wouldn’t type anything for anybody. There was Phil – Phil was reading a book, he was the Chief Accountant …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and Phil kept the book in the drawer. And the game was to see if we could see which book Phil was reading. (laughter) So [unclear] we were there – Phil was sitting at his desk here, and it was a question of manoeuvring up to ask him a question, but manoeuvring in such a way that he didn’t actually notice that you moved, getting up the room (laughter) in his direction. We never found out – we could see the book disappear and then you’d ask him for some figures and
44
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
you’d say, ‘Now, can you analyse these figures?’ ‘Far too busy!’ So even then …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... they were grossly overstaffed. (laughter)
Mr S Well, if they were grossly overstaffed, I dread to think what err … umm, I mean, to be quite honest, Roger, I … I … I don’t think there’s much more I can add.
RR No, no, I don’t, I think that’s fine, and that’s very helpful, ‘cos you’re … you’re supporting, if you like, my feeling …
Mr S Well, those are my views, and …
RR Well also you’re telling me once Clifford said to you, which actually doesn’t answer ... it is definitively …
Mr S No, no it doesn’t. I don’t think you’ll ever get to the … you’ll have a definitive answer.
RR No, I don’t – I’m not going to even try.
Mr S I mean, but … but it is – you … you … you can, of course, make with the very … you can … you can say a lot about Garvey as a person …
RR Yea.
Mr S ... and his character and what he’d done in Fiji. And you can … you can then relate to what happened here. And it’s very obvious his hand …
RR Oh yes.
Mr S ... was in it …
RR Yes.
45
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S ... right from the start.
RR Absolutely.
Mr S And he came at the right time. If he’d come ten years before – couldn’t do anything.
RR He wouldn’t … wouldn’t have had the powers …
Mr S No.
RR ... and we … and we wouldn’t have had the scope, because everything was still depressed ten years before ...
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and ten years later it would have been too late – but perhaps not – we’d have missed ten years. We’d have missed the … we’d have missed the new residents – the colonial leavers.
Mr S You’d have missed those. The other [unclear] …
RR We’ve got … we’ve got the odd important manufacturers coming. Like Geoffrey Assiton [??? sp].
Mr S Yes, the … there is the … the factories up at Ramsey, umm …
RR There was Aristoc …
Mr S Yea ... umm …
RR I’ve forgotten … what else was at Ramsey …?
Mr S Well, there was the … what was that place at Ramsey – the great big net factory – stockings or something?
RR Oh, that was Aristoc.
46
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Aristoc?
RR Aristoc – A-R-I-S-T-O-C.
Mr S Aristoc. The shoe company at err …
RR Ronaldsway.
Mr S ... Ronaldsway, plus Ronaldsway Engineering.
RR Ronaldsway Engineering came in 1952 and started production in 1954. I spoke to David Holt at a dinner party the other night. (laughter)
Mr S Are they still at err … at umm … [unclear]
RR [unclear] Stevens old place?
Mr S Yep?
RR Yep. She goes there, and Richard, he was character, you know.
Mr S What, Ralph?
RR Yes. Now his son I knew very ‘cos he’d been …
Mr S Mark?
RR ... he’d been … he’d been at Stowe, you see ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... so we always used to tell the story … he used to tell me stories about what Mrs … Mrs Kinvig … who was his House Master’s wife, was up to. And she always had people to tea, and he said, which we dreaded – anybody from anywhere near the Isle of Man would have dreaded this and she would always sit in baby blue [unclear] with her gloves on. (laughter) And you’d be asked to
47
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
tea, and you had to reply – don’t you know, (laughter) and when I first … this … this was a chap, Harold Kinvig, he was a Callon of the Callon tributary …
Mr S Yea.
RR ... umm … and … Harold, when the war started, Tessa always talked about staying, you know, took off to the Isle of Man, where she spent the war, leaving Harold, who was a House Master – was a house with six bedrooms in and they were short of accommodation – the war was on – and some of these old codgers you … lots of people went off to the war, so you’d got elderly schoolmasters in, and they lived in his spare bedrooms, (laughter) you see, of which he had five. And, because Stowe is in the middle of a … of a great mansion in the middle of absolutely nowhere, err … it’s a very enclosed community …
Mr S Yea.
RR ... and they imbibed very [unclear], err … all the time I was there, they were pretty good imbibers, I mean, I … and the bachelors had a common room there with fare like an officers’ mess …
Mr S Oh yes.
RR ... and it was very nice indeed, and Harold – Harold’s head wasn’t good. And Harold became, even two glasses of sherry would send him off, but he … he was known by everybody, including the boys, as ‘Ginvig.’ And in the common room, they would ask you what ‘Vig’ you would like ... if you said you would like gin, or something, ‘what ‘Vig’ would you like?’ I think it’s probably gone now … and I came to … to … when I first came to the Isle of Man – this was another thing, I said … he’d just retired about two years before my time … I said to … I said to Elizabeth, ‘We’ll go and see him.’ And he lived at the end of the cross where Margarete Dowty lived later …
Mr S Yes.
RR ... parts of [unclear] – that one at the end, which was a [unclear] or two. And umm … so I went to see him, quite thinking I was going to see this huge nose, like Dickey Boins [??? sp], you know? (laughter) And there’s this very neat
48
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
fellow, ‘Oh yes, come in, come through.’ And then … and … and Tessa talks about, ‘Oh, Stowe, you know.’ So, every time, in the street, you’d … you’d go out in the street if you were over here on holiday, and I’d hear someone saying, ‘Oh, Stowe, you know,’ and I don’t think she’d seen me, but always, ‘Stowe, you know.’ And I’d say, ‘Oh, hello Tessa, how’s Harold?’ ‘Ah, poor dear Harold – he’s not what he was, you know, all his insides are made of plastic. (laughter) he never gets out, (laughter) ‘cos he’d got a catheter or something, you know.’ You’d go round the corner and there was Harold, he used to sort of [unclear] it to The Union and back.
Mr S Yes, yes.
RR He knew how long Tessa would do her progress for, and you’d say, ‘How are you?’ ‘Oh, fine,’ he said, ‘fine!’
Mr S He’d just had a couple in The Union.
RR He’d nipped in and nipped out again.
Mr S Yes, yes.
RR No bad thing.
Mr S Well, Roger, I’m going to have to call a stop. That’s my own, those are my views. I mean I’m basing it on the research I did for the Old House of Keys project. I think, Sue, if you dig out Clifford’s memoirs, the ones that … the transcript from Doyles … Doyles interview …
RR Yep.
Mr S Umm … you’ll get some good stuff out of that. Garvey needs more research …
RR I’m not – I don’t want…I don’t want to do what Derek wanted to do, ‘cos Derek, when he did … his economic account of ’45, he asked me to write 600 words on financial services …
Mr S Hmm.
49
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR ... which unfortunately I gave him and never got back again, which is a bit annoying … his manuscript was a … umm … but he didn’t use an awful lot of it, ‘cos a lot of this stuff ... I put together for him, and he wasn’t … wasn’t very interested in things. He shouldn’t have done that chapter, ‘cos he’s not got, essentially, got an economic mind …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... and you don’t know if he’d a clever economist to do it …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... but he says his story and he loves personalities.
Mr S Yes – not the economic history.
RR There was … there was two big comments I made to him, I said, ‘[unclear] Derek, there are two things here I wouldn’t have done; the first is that you have given us is a [unclear] Hugh Lock.’
Mr S Hmm.
RR I said, ‘That’s not … it seems to me the purpose of this chapter …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... err … if you want to write about Lock, who is a very interesting person, why don’t you write a biography of Lock, or a biography of the Governors of the Isle of Man?’ which, later on he did.
Mr S Which he did of course, which was a very good book.
RR Which was excellent.
Mr S Yes, yes.
50
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR So, I may go back to Derek’s first [unclear], because I don’t … of Garvey, because I don’t want to make that mistake. I mean, Garvey, in any case, gets full mention …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... so it won’t have that level of detail.
Mr S Hmm, well, sorry.
RR The other thing – going back to Derek – he became obsessed with the names of the Steam Packet ships. (laughter) Some of them are still there ...
Mr S Yes.
RR ... I said, ‘You’ve got … you’ve got four pages in here … you … you have not got room …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... for all that … err … and that’s a subject of people who’ve written books about that.’
Mr S One thing I’d like to say, before I nip off back into my office; when Sue first came to see me about this, we umm … I made a point of mentioning the constitutional papers that we have, papers relating to the constitution – on the constitution arrangements between the Isle of Man and the UK …
RR Constitutional arrangements, in these matters, are …
Mr S ... are very important, because we must never lose sight of the fact that we’re talking about a period when Britain had … or, sorry, the UK Government had effectively started to slacken the reins, and give the Governor, as an executive of a political body, umm … more freedom.
RR Yes, we’ve got to …
51
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S He could then dispense that according to his good office…
RR Hmm.
Mr S ... and, obviously, he came at the right time, but it would be very interesting to … to actually establish, within the context of this research and this book, what was England’s … what was Westminster’s reason … real feeling for him, and how were his err … umm … how was he dealt with by them, ‘cos I don’t think even … I don’t think even then, Westminster could … intellectually come to terms with … with a … umm … a Governor of any territory had ideas.
RR Hmm.
Mr S You were representing the Sovereign, err … and that’s all he had to do – to shout who …
RR Well it was worse than that, he was also representing a thing that he wasn’t actually representing, but he’d come to represent, that is the British Government.
Mr S Ah, but, the Diplomatic Service would claim that honour! Umm … the Governor is the Crown.
RR Becomes the Crown.
Mr S And that’s the thing.
RR This is not the British Government.
Mr S No.
RR And we are….
Mr S A Crown Dependency …
RR ... we are a Crown Dependency, and we are very much a Crown Dependency …
52
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S You realise that it’s not a thing …
RR It’s not a thing that the Crown has … in practise it has let the British Government take that over …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... but I suspect the constitution is the linkage with the Crown [unclear] the British Government …
Mr S Well, in fact, this is an interesting point, because if … if the UK became a republic, and the Crown was abolished …
RR We wouldn’t …
Mr S ... the Isle of Man would have to re-negotiate its constitutional position with the British Government; and could, in fact, say the link’s gone …
RR Well I think that …
Mr S The Crown’s gone.
RR I think … I think it’s the … if the Isle of Man wanted to, it could cut loose on British Government, anyway. I mean, there is a cost to that which it may not be worth paying …
Mr S But surely not the Crown?!
RR ... but not the Crown – it wouldn’t need to, because as I pointed out to that idiot Tony Brown, when he had this absurd suggestion, which he spends a lot of time doing – I told him I wouldn’t vote for him – and I didn’t! I wrote an essay about him – what an idiot he was on my piece of paper. (laughter)
Mr S You mean the Crown Commissioner title?
RR Yea.
53
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S Yea.
RR And I said, ‘Well, Jamaica ...’ I mean, that’s not exactly …
Mr S Hmm.
RR ... a country which you think of as being for pulling white place, and yet, a place like Jamaica has got its parliament, I said, ‘Government only for practical purposes it’s the same as having a … a president.’
Mr S Yea.
RR Umm … oh no, he wouldn’t have that. But we get this sort of silly nationalism in … in some parts.
Mr S Well, thankfully that was dropped, and the Governor’s title – well, I’m not sure that the Sovereign would ever approve it anyway, because err … a lot of people wrote …
RR The Privy Council …
Mr S The Privy Council surely would have err …
RR No, and I suspect they might, but there, I mean it died of its own volition which is better than the Crown having said you’re not going to do that …
Mr S I mean, it’s better dying that way than … than being err …
RR But I mean that – if he could waste everybody’s time like that, he’s not … he can be the Speaker, but … I mean, he’s being talked of as a potential Chief Minister – heaven help us!
Mr S Have I got anything to add to the … I don’t think so?
RR No, the constitution …
54
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
Mr S The constitutional thing I think is important. And I gave you a sheet, Sue, with the … oh, one thing I would add, umm … and I mentioned this to Sue, Roger, I went to see St John Bates, umm … some years ago, and said, ‘Is there any chance that you can fund a promising student to go through all of our archives and pull out the material that relates to the constitution – and send you periodic reports?’ and he … and he funded an amount for a student for 14 months.
RR It’s a marvellous job for a student, isn’t it?
Mr S Absolutely – Roger … err…what was his name? Umm … John Beckison and that stuff’s listed on that sheet.
RR He … that … he has done that, and he has …
Mr S He’s done that it – everything has been done. And that’s a vitally important lead. And Sue, you should come in and look at those.
RR Yea.
Mr S In fact, while I’m here I’m going to get Roger a copy of that leaflet ‘cos it’s very good.
[Sound of footsteps moving away]
RR So it’s [unclear] Lock as they emigrate relaxation …
Mr S Eh?
RR ... Lock was the other one who also had achieved a great advance of the Manx constitution.
SL Absolutely, although this one was achieved, I guess, before Garvey came, but at least he saw the … he was the right … right man to have …
RR Hmm.
SL Even at the time …
55
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR Yea, the other one who Denis wrote about …
Mr S And, Roger, these two works here by Sybil Sharp – I particularly recommend. They are excellent.
RR Good.
Mr S Look, I’ve got to press on …
RR No, no, that’s fine, that’s been most helpful, thank you very much.
Mr S Well, it goes without saying, whatever help I can be, I will be …
RR Hmm. It’s sort of working out, anyway. It’s the depth to which we go – it depends what … what Manx Heritage Foundation wants. They wanted essentially a readable book.
Mr S Yes, a readable …
RR Umm … and not like Mark Solly’s … ‘cos … so I’ve got a balancing act to some extent.
Mr S Hmm.
RR And the important things, like the change in 1958 have got to be there.
Mr S Yes, but it’s not going to be too heavy …
RR No, it’s not going to be heavy. So that’s … that’s the balance I’ve got to get.
Mr S Yes, this is the thing. It … it’s such a technical subject that you can easily become wrapped up in quoting things like the Income Tax Number 2 Bill … the Acts of ’46 and ’60 …
RR No, that won’t … that won’t be seen in it.
Mr S It suffice to say …
56
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims
RR It’s underlying.
Mr S Yea. And I think if it’s a readable account, people will get a better understanding of it. ‘Cos I – one thing that you do find when you’ve started a subject like this, whether it’s the constitution or the economic development of the Island, and from a fiscal prospective, is that very, very few people have got any idea what it’s about.
SL Hmm.
RR Well, that’s what’s also come to us, as we’re going along to a greater degree than I thought. Even the ones who were here have put it out of their minds. More in my mind, having been away, and having observed it, in some ways, than in theirs …
Mr S Yea. Well, you see, we’re apt to forget that things were never always thus.
RR No.
Mr S And … and … and it’s a sharp reminder that err … you know, within living memory things were different.
RR Hmm.
Mr S My goodness they were different. Listen, I have to go …
RR Thanks very much.
Mr S It’s been lovely to see you again.
RR Keep supping!
Mr S Oh, I do – he’s always trying to get me drinking, this chap! (laughter)
SL Is he really?!
END OF INTERVIEW
57