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Manx Heritage Foundation Oral History Project Oral History Transcript

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Manx Heritage Foundation Oral History Project Oral History Transcript Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT ‘TIME TO REMEMBER’ Interviewee: Mr Roger Sims Date of birth: Place of birth: Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Sue Lewis Recorded by: Roger Rawcliffe Date recorded: 24th November 2006 Topic(s): Abolition of surtax Governor Garvey Clifford Irving and Dougie Bolton The Casino Raid and incident with gun Influx of people from Africa and West Indies The Athol and Derby families Smuggling in the Isle of Man Wakes Weeks and tourism Trusts and off-shore companies Isle of Man Civil Service Administration Aristoc factory in Ramsey Ronaldsway Shoe Company Constitutional arrangements with UK Harold Kinvig Income Tax Number 2 Bill Roger Sims - Mr S Roger Rawcliffe - RR Sue Lewis - SL 1 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S … who as you know, is … is … who thought up the bright idea of abolition of surtax. RR Yep. And there were three candidates involved … Mr S Yes. RR ... is … is … Garvey himself, Clifford … Mr S Yes. RR ... and … and … JB. Mr S Yes. Well, it’s a very interesting point ... err … Roger, because there are two camps; there’s the Bolton camp … RR That’ll be with Peter Duggie [??? sp] you see. (laughter) Mr S ... and his son Doug, will … is the chief advocate there – and Sally, his daughter, who’s … who’s an advocate, who wrote … who wrote … the piece … the Manx Worthies, and, incidentally, for the DNB … RR Hmm, hmm Mr S ... was published two years ago – Bolton is in that. RR In the [unclear]. Mr S Yes. I managed to get him in it, and about fourteen other Manxmen. RR And so Joe Mylchreest is in it. Mr S Indeed. Umm …which poorly represents him previously, but we do have them in, and Bolton, Doug Bolton, was very enthusiastic that his father should go in … RR Hmm. 2 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S Sally wrote it and we put it forward and it’s gone in word for word. Err … RR Same as what is in this one? Mr S Indeed, it is the same thing. RR Hmm. Mr S The two camps … the other side of the camp, the other camp are the Clifford Irving school, and Clifford has a lot of supporters … err … his biggest supporter was himself. And he … I had the fortune to go and see him, and get his side of the story. One thing I would say about Clifford Irving was that he, in his latter period of his life, would not give any interviews whatsoever. Umm … but when I … when I wrote his speech for … Old House of Keys presentation, which we recorded in the ... umm … Keys Chamber, I did see him a few times, and in fact, he did tell me that he’d given all his recollections to an advocate in Dickinson Cruickshank who ... umm … had recorded it all and typed a transcript. That person is now the Second Deemster … RR David ... Mr S ... Deemster Doyle. So that, having heard of it, I then tracked it down, and I’ve got it here. And that’s something that should be looked at … RR Yea. Mr S ... err … in transcript form. So two camps; but there is a third camp, and that third camp really hasn’t been explored, and that’s Garvey. RR Well, Garvey is the third one that I’m … Mr S Well, in fact … err … it’s four years previous to the Income Tax Amendment Bill, of 1960, that Tynwald supported a proposal from Garvey to appoint an Income Tax Commission. RR Well, Garvey wasn’t here, was he, then, that was the … 3 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S Sorry, the umm ... RR The previous Governor… Mr S ... the previous Governor… RR That was Dundas. Mr S Yes, and this is where it gets a little complicated because, prior to Garvey’s arrival, the umm … Income Tax Commission had, in fact, been established to review policy on direct taxation. Now, along comes Garvey, and into the Commission goes Clifford … RR Who was on the original one – Bolton was on the original one. Mr S Bolton was on the original one. Bolton was then elevated to the Finance Committee, Chairman, and left the Income Tax Commission. My understanding is that there were four Members of Tynwald always on that commission. And it’s significant that when it finally reported back to Garvey, and Garvey, I believe, had spoken to Clifford about them looking at err … the position in respect of surtax which affected, really, relatively few people on the Island, but was something that could be tinkered with, umm … their recommendation was that it should be abolished as a means of attracting ... err … well-to-do residents, industrial investment and generally strengthening the economy of the Isle of Man. Now ... I think that what would be required here, would be two areas of research: one into the composition of the original Commission in 1956 … RR Hmm, yes. Mr S ... err … and in that respect, I suspect that the Court of Tynwald would have given this some debate. And I would consider also, that it would have been approved by the British Home Office. RR Yes, because we’ve also got, coming in at that very same time, haven’t we, the sort of … constitutional change … 4 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S Absolutely. RR ... in 1958 ... Mr S Absolutely. RR ... which enabled them to ... Mr S Yes. RR ... to act … Mr S Yes. RR ... and to vastly [unclear] ... Mr S Indeed, quite right. RR ... and that … that … that … Mr S I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, Roger. I think we’ve got ‘56 – the Commission, which would have still required Home Office approval, but then we have the constitutional err … report of ’58, and the inquiry and … and the results of the Commission, which gives the Isle of Man more leeway … err … in making decisions – or decision making, albeit still involving a hefty slice of power by the Governor. But at least it’s an aspect of door-opening; and as the door opens, the opportunities can be, can be seen. So when the Commission made its recommendations to abolish surtax, umm … it was doing it in its own right. RR That was to Garvey by this time, wasn’t it? Mr S It was to Garvey, and, to the best of my knowledge, the initial recommendations went straight to him – not to the Finance Committee but straight to him. Now he then had to mull it over, and the recommendations were then placed before Tynwald. Umm … the proposal was actually approved after a very strong debate by 15 votes to 9 – 22nd June 1960 surtax was formally abolished. 5 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims RR Now is that right, umm …’cos there is no legislation at that time, was there? Mr S Well, they had to wait for a year before it was enacted. RR ‘Cos they … they … they had a whole lot of debates in the autumn, didn’t they, in October, November …? Mr S Yes. RR ... which put the actual legislation ... Mr S Back. RR [unclear] ... Mr S Yes. RR ... but I suppose it’s like a budget announcement, was it? ... Mr S Indeed. RR ... saying, ‘We’ll do it.’ Mr S Yes. RR So it wasn’t actually ... it was proposed to be abolished, subject to legislation ... Mr S Yes. RR ... and subject to 6th April the following year. Mr S Yes. Now … RR So the announcement was made on that day, which is what date is that? SL Was that when the … was that the budget speech? 6 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S Yes, the 21st June … RR That was Garvey’s budget speech? Mr S Yes, but it would be in his speech, he would say that it would be umm … abolished. Now, I get a little hazy here, because I think you’d need to re-visit Hansard. SL We’ve got that ... RR We haven’t actually read it yet, but Sue has read it … Mr S One of the … one of the mechanisms, in fact, Clifford Irving’s err … insistence to Bolton on this, and Garvey, was that he would not accept the immediate introduction of the abolition of surtax, it would have be a one-year wait, err … RR It’s not practical, actually, you couldn’t … you couldn’t do it immediately … Mr S No. RR I don’t think … Mr S Err … I think Clifford knew that. RR There was no legislation … Mr S Yes. RR Err … and it didn’t coincide with the tax year. Mr S Yea. SL No, and also you … you … your income and expenditure would be … RR Very hard to get … and they’d done the budgets already … 7 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Roger Sims Mr S And they’d done the budgets already, so he had to wait … err … and it wasn’t introduced straight away. Now, what is interesting is that Clifford always maintained to me, that he had to sort of prompt and prod John Bolton along initially to get his … to get him on board with this recommendation for the abolition of surtax by the err ... umm … Income Tax Commission. Umm, which is an interesting point because umm … as the Chairman of the Finance Board, of course, he had responsibility for the government’s income and expenditure and everything else; and would have been concerned, naturally, about the loss of income … err … with the abolition.
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