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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 16th January 1996 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1961 - The President of Tynwald (the Hon Sir Charles Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1996) Kerruish OBE LLD (hc) CP). In the Council: the Attorney- Regulations 1995. (SD No. 630/95) General (Mr J M Kerruish Q C), Mr B Barton, Mrs C M Christian, Mr D F K Delaney, Hon E G Lowey, His Honour Inland Fisheries Act 1976 - A C Luft CBE, Dr- E J Mann, Messrs J N Radcliffe and G Inland Fisheries (Fees) Regulations 1995. (SD No. H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden, Clerk of the Council. 644/95)

In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon J C Cain) (Douglas Representation of the People Act 1995 - • West); Mr A R Bell and Hon T R A Groves (Ramsey); Mr Representation of the People Regulations 1995. (SD R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Hon No. 638/95) H Hannan (Peel); Mr W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Mr S C Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); Mr P Karran and Social Security Act 1982 - Hon R K Corkill (Onchan); Hon B May and Mr EA Crowe Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 22) (Douglas North); Messrs D C Cretney and A C Duggan Order 1995. (SD No. 587/95) (Douglas South); Messrs P W Kermode and R P Braidwood Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 23) (Douglas East); Mr A F Downie (Douglas West); Hon J A Order 1995. (SD No.588/95) Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling (Malew and Santon); Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Hon M R Walker CBE LLD (hc), Mr J Corrin and Hon N Order 1995. (SD No. 589/95) Q Cringle (Rushen); with Prof T StJ N Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. Pension Schemes Act 1995 - Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) Order 1995. (SD No. 590/95) The Chaplain of the House of Keys took the prayers. National Health Service Act 1948 - GOOD WISHES FOR THE NEW YEAR National Health Service (Isle of Man) (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) The President: As I welcome hon. members to this the (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations. (SD No. 569/ first sitting of Tynwald of 1996 I would like to extend to 95) you all the good wishes of the chair for a happy and successful parliamentary year. Local Elections Act 1986 - Local Elections (Fees) Order 1996. (SD No. 97/95) Members: Hear, hear. Financial Supervision Act 1988 - Financial Supervision (Professional Investor Fund) (Exemption) Order 1995. (SD No. 627/95) APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE Collective Investment Scheme (Periodical Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 1995. (SD No. 626/95) The President: Hon. members, we have apologies for absence from the Lord Bishop and the hon. member for Companies Acts 1931 to 1992 - Onchan, Mr Kniveton. Collective Investment Schemes (Prospectus) (Exemption) Regulations 1995. (SD No.628/95)

PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 - a Investment Business (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations The President: I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. 1995. (SD No. 625/95) Investment Business (Exemption) (Fund Managers) The Clerk: I lay before the Court: Regulations 1995. (SD No. 624/95)

Good Wishes for the New Year Apologies for Absence Papers Laid Before the Court T384 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Payment of Members' Expenses Act 1989 - Value Added Tax (General) (Amendment) (No. 5) Attendance Allowances Order 1995. (SD No. 599/ Regulations 1995. (SD No. 621/95) 95) Currency Act 1992 - Currency Act (95th Birthday of HM the Queen Customs and Excise Act 1993 : Pool Betting (Isle of Mother Crown) Order 1995. (SD No. 580/95) Man) Acts 1961 to 1970 - Currency Act (Decimal Coins 1995) Order 1995. Pool Betting Duty (Variation) (No. 2) Order 1995. (SD No. 579/95) (SD No.611/95) Currency Act (History of World War II Aircraft Crowns) Order 1995. (SD No. 578/95) Customs and Excise Act 1993 - Currency Act (Inventions of the Modern World Statistics of Trade (Customs and Excise) Crowns) Order 1995. (SD No. 577/95) (Amendment) Regulations (Application) Order 1995. (SD No. 614/95) Council of Ministers Act 1990 - Assignment of Ministers (No. 2) Instrument 1995. Value Added Tax and Other Taxes Act 1973 - (GC No. 43/95) Value Added Tax and Other Taxes Act 1973 (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1995. (SD No. 619/ Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 - 95) Designated Roads (Long and Heavy Vehicles) Value Added Tax (Increase of Registration Limits) (Amendment) Order 1995. (SD No. 651/95) Order 1995. (SD No. 620/95) Reports - Craft and Technician Training Scheme 1995 - Third Interim Report of the Council of Ministers Craft and Technician Training Scheme on Future Constitutional Objectives. (Manufacturing, Construction and Service Industries) 1995. (GC No. 38/95) ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT Reports - First Report 1995/96 of the Standing Orders The President: Committee of Tynwald. I have to announce that Royal Assent was given to the Trusts Act of 1995 and the Video Report of the Department of Education on 'The Recordings Act of 1995 on 12th December 1995. Future Development of the Manx Language.'

Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986 - Beer (Amendment) Regulations 1995. (SD No. 618/ BILLS FOR SIGNATURE 95) The President: We have two Bills for signature, hon. Customs and Excise Duties (General Reliefs) Act members, and if you are agreeable we will continue our 1986 - business while they are being signed. Is that agreed? Travellers' Allowances (Amendment) Order 1995. (SD No. 615/95) Members: Agreed.

Customs and Excise Acts 1986 - The President: Thank you. Excise Duties Order 1995. (SD No. 612/95)

Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 - NEW HOSPITAL ON THE BALLAMONA/ Revenue Traders (Accounts and Records) BALLAFLETCHER SITE — DRAFT PLANNING (Amendment) Regulations 1995. (SD No. 613/95) ORDER — QUESTION BY MR QUINE

Census Act 1929 - The President: Turning now to the question paper I Census Regulations 1995. (SD No. 623/95) call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine, to ask the question standing in his name. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 - Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duty Etc) Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Regulations 1995. (SD No. 617/95) ask the Chief Minister: Other Fuel Substitutes (Rates of Excise Duty Etc) Order 1995. (SD No. 616/95) (1) Is it a fact that -

Value Added Tax and Other Taxes Act 1973 - (a) you chaired a meeting on 12th October 1995 to Value Added Tax (Imported Goods) Relief discuss strategy and problems relating to the (Amendment) Order 1995. (SD No. 622/95) draft planning order for the proposed new

Announcement of Royal Assent Bills for Signature New Hospital on the Ballamona/Ballafletcher Site — Draft Planning Order — Question by Mr Quine TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T385

hospital on the BallamonalBallafletcher site; the Environment that the Braddan Local Plan be amended • (b) this meeting was attended by - by an order under the Planning Acts. The Department of Local Government and the Environment is in fact the (i) NQ Cringle Esq MHK acting for the Minister proposer. Ultimately, if the order is approved, following for Local Government and the Environment the public inquiry, it is Tynwald who will sit in judgement in planning matters concerning the proposed on it. As the proposer it is therefore perfectly natural for new hospital, and the Department of Local Government and the Environment to be a party to meetings on the proposed order, indeed it (ii) ministers and/or representatives of the would be distinctly odd if they were excluded. Department of Health and Social Security, The second point is that government does seek to act Department of Local Government and the corporately, although the different departments are mindful Environment and Department of Transport; of their own responsibilities. It is not merely a group of individual departments acting independently of each other. (c) the representative of the Department of Departments work together and it is perfectly normal for Transport advised that the existing road there to be meetings between departments to ensure mutual arrangements are not sufficient to service the understanding and a consistency of approach. No doubt if new hospital once it became operational; departments appeared at a public inquiry all saying different things there would be criticism. It is in furtherance (d) in view of differences of opinion between of understanding and consistency and corporate government departments as to the provision and government that the meeting took place on 12th October siting of the new link road it was decided to - 1995. • (i) delete from the draft planning order reference Mr Quine: Can the minister confirm that in point of to the proposed access road, and fact the rezoning of this land is a prerequisite to the proposal to site a hospital at Ballamona and that it is part and parcel (ii) amend chapter 6 of the environmental of that planning process and he is splitting hairs and assessment statement to refer to 'options for seeking, I would suggest, to deliberately confuse the public improving access'; and by stating otherwise. This action to rezone this land is part and parcel of the planning process and it is manifestly (2) are you satisfied that these actions by government wrong for a member with responsibility for the planning in the pursuit of planning approval for the siting of aspects to be party to a meeting which was seeking to pave a new hospital on the BallamonalBallafletcher site the way for this approval. are indicative of an open, fair and equitable application of planning procedures? The President: That to my mind is not a question that needs a reply, it was a statement. Do you wish to ask a The President: The Chief Minister to reply. further supplementary, sir, if you confine it to a supplementary? Mr Walker. Thank you, Mr President. Before I do reply, could I just wish to yourself and Lady Kerruish all our Mr Quine: Certainly. very best wishes for 1996. (Members: Hear, hear.) Mr President, I could dispute the precise wording used Mr Kermode: Christmas is over. by the hon. member. However, I will, for the sake of brevity, confirm that parts (a), (b) and (c) of part (1) of the question Mr Quine: Can the Chief Minister confirm that the • are substantially correct. Part (d) is incorrect in suggesting rezoning of this land is a prerequisite to obtaining planning that the decision to omit the link road arose from differences approval for the siting of a hospital on the Ballamona site? of opinion between government departments. The omission was agreed on the basis of comments received on the Mr Walker: Mr President, rezoning is not necessarily planning order as originally drafted and because it was a prerequisite for a planning approval. We have, though, recognised that the highways infrastructure for the area found by our experience and comments made by inspectors was a separate issue and would be better addressed in its in the past that if land is not rezoned for redevelopment, own right once the Department of Transport's transport then that is an issue that he will certainly take into account, strategy for Douglas had been considered by Tynwald. although I am aware of a number of planning applications As regards the second part of the question, I think the that in fact have taken place and received approval in land underlying premise indicates some misunderstanding of that is zoned in a different way. the position and there are two points that I would like to I could also make it clear that as far as rezoning is make clear. First we are not dealing here with a planning concerned, it is a comparatively small amount of land at • application which has been submitted by the Department Braddan that it is suggested is rezoned from agricultural of Health and Social Security to be considered by the to hospital use. Department of Local Government and the Environment. What we have is an order originated and, I suppose, Mr Delaney: Bearing in mind, Mr President, that Mr supported by the Department of Local Government and Cringle was taking on the mantle of a minister under the • New Hospital on the Ballamona/Ballafletcher Site — Draft Planning Order — Question by Mr Quine T386 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 planning laws laid down by Tynwald and the The President: The Chief Minister to reply. responsibilities given, would the Chief Minister, in • hindsight, not agree with me that having Mr Cringle Mr Walker: Mr President, I can confirm what is said present, who has taken on the ministerial part for this in the first part of the question. application, was wrong and against the spirit of the As regards the second part, I think the word 'allegation' planning regulations? is rather strong. It is certainly not used by Mr Wolstenholme. What he said was 'I am concerned at the Mr Walker: I do not believe, Mr President, it was possibility that members may have been misled', an against the spirit of the planning regulations. Mr Cringle, expression rather less belligerent and confrontational than 4.4 having had his responsibilities delegated to him from the that used in the question. minister, considered the comments that were received on I responded to Mr Wolstenholme and referred his letter the draft document that had been issued by his department to the Department of Transport to see if the minister and decided to make changes to it. Now, I think it is considered that any corrections to what had been written eminently sensible for the departments then to consider or said or the circulation of any additional information was the changes that were being suggested to that order by the necessary. What is said in or presented to Tynwald is member who had responsibility for it. obviously in the first instance the responsibility of the member who presents it and it is for the member to consider whether he has misled the Court. I understand that Mr SANTON HEAD PLANNING SCHEME — Wolstenholme's letter was considered by the department, INQUIRY — QUESTION BY MR QUINE specifically by the minister and by those who had been involved in the inquiry and by the advocate who The President: Question 2, the hon. member for Ayre. represented the department at the inquiry. I further understand that it was concluded that Tynwald had not been • Mr Quine: What purpose would have been served by misled and that no correction nor the issue of any further Mr Groves delegating his duties then in respect of planning information was thought to be necessary. matters? I saw no necessity for bringing Mr Wolstenholme's letter to the attention of the Court and, from what I have seen, The President: Hon. member for Ayre, I called upon the suggestion that Tynwald may have been misled does you to ask question 2, sir. not appear to be well-founded. Now, I have to say, after investigating the answer for Mr Quine: I would ask permission to ask a further this question I found the department did not respond supplementary, if I may, sir. specifically to Mr Wolstenholme as I had requested them. I do know that a draft was prepared but there is no record The President: I am afraid it is refused, sir. I have gone in fact of that having gone to Mr Wolstenholme, and for on to question 2, sir. Would you care to ask question 2 or that I offer an apology and I have no doubt at all that the not? department will as well because it would be on the basis of that response that Mr Wolstenholme could have then Mr Quine: Yes, I do intend to ask question 2, sir. I beg considered the department's position and, if he had felt it leave to ask the Chief Minister: necessary, come back, and I apologise, sir, for that omission. (1) Is it a fact that you have received a letter from Mr R D Wolstenholme, the person who conducted the Mr Quine: I thank the minister for at least conceding inquiry into the Santon Head planning scheme, that the matter has been improperly dealt with but may I • dated 12th June 1995, alleging that members of ask the Minister, is it not a fact that this complaint is a Tynwald may have been misled by various reports complaint that was made about the Department of and statements presented by the Department of Transport and is it not farcical in the extreme to send that Transport at the April sitting of Tynwald in seeking complaint to the party complained against and expect an support for the IRIS project; and impartial and credible investigation to be carried out?

(2) in the event that such a letter has been received - Mr Walker: I do not believe it is farcical in the extreme at all, Mr President. The letter was a long one and rather (a) have these allegations been investigated, and if detailed. The whole issue has been dealt with in detail by so, by whom; the Department of Transport. The minister of the department made statements to this hon. Court and we (b) if these allegations have been investigated, what moved a resolution which was successful in this hon. Court. were the findings and action taken; and He obviously knows more about the background than any other person. I have to say, from the investigations I have (c) have you acquainted the President of Tynwald made, that I would support him in his view on the Court and/or members of Tynwald Court of this information that I have so far that this Court was not misled. occurrence? I have to say, though, I find it unfortunate that the letter did not go to Mr Wolstenholme which would have enabled Santon Head Planning Scheme — Inquiry — Question by Mr Quine • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T387

him to come back and reiterate any concerns that he may and sees if we can satisfy Mr Wolstenholme in the first • have had. instance, that would be the preferred route.

Mr Quine: Has Mr Wolstenholme complained that the Dr Mann: Mr President, would the Chief Minister assertion that a pre-inquiry meeting took place, that that accept that Mr Wolstenholme was and is a responsible, assertion is misleading, and has he not claimed that the experienced person in conducting these inquiries and that claim by the department that they were given a direction any complaint should have been dealt with as a responsible to present certain evidence in a certain fashion in fact is complaint? Is it also not true that Mr Wolstenholme is false? unlikely to have been impressed by an investigation carried by the very department that he complained of? Mr Walker: I do not believe, Mr President, from the information I have that it is false. There is certainly a Mr Walker: Mr Wolstenholme was not lodging with misunderstanding and there were two completely different us a complaint. He wrote to me and said, 'I am concerned views but the department are as firm in their view as Mr that Tynwald may have been misled', and I think the right Wolstenholme appears to be in his that they followed the way and right approach when I receive a letter like that is procedures and the requests. to get back to Mr Wolstenholme, identify the areas where we think that his view is wrong and do that with him. I am Mr Delaney: Mr President, bearing in mind that the concerned and I said in my opening remarks that I apologise general public are not aware of the contents of Mr to him that that was not followed through and he did not Wolstenholme, an independent inspector's complaints, get that response, and I am just telling hon. members that • should the Chief Minister ask Mr Wolstenholme if he I will ensure that he does get that response and I do not would mind if this information was made public so that think I can do much more. the public who we serve will know what the complaints of What I will also do, and I have never suggested this independent inspector are against the government otherwise, is accept that Mr Wolstenholme is responsible department? and the other words the hon. member used. I have no problem with that. But he did conduct the inquiry, he did Mr Walker: I am sure, sir, that if Mr Wolstenholme report and a decision has been made on the report, and I wishes to make his letter public, that is a matter for him have to say, from the investigations I have made, Tynwald was not misled by the minister. and in fact through the hon. member for Ayre he is doing just that, and I have no problem with that at all. I would Mr Quine: Will the minister, having regard to the fact just reiterate, though, what Mr Wolstenholme started in that the Chief Minister agrees that this matter has not been his letter. He said, 'I am concerned at the possibility that properly dealt with and he has no objection to the facts members have been misled'. Now, that is a different being brought out into the public, will he support a motion situation to the one which is being suggested by the hon. for to have this matter investigated by a select committee member who has asked the question. to clear the air on the matter entirely? It is also true to say that an inspector making a recommendation on a planning application or rezoning, Mr Walker: I would just go back to what I said before, his job is to make his recommendation, submit his report Mr President. I hope we have not reached that situation at and then his functions are over and I think that is something this stage. that members of this hon. Court should bear in mind. And of course I am aware that suggestions of this hon. Court Mr Quine: You have had your opportunity. being misled are serious suggestions and not ones that I • dismiss lightly. Mr Walker: I also do not think I need to apologise any more for the omission of a letter from the Department of Mr Kermode: Mr President, I too agree with the Chief Transport. I think it was unfortunate but it is a matter of Minister when he says it is a serious allegation. If the Chief fact. I will make sure that that position is put right, sir. Minister is not prepared to go public on this document, then at least would he not consider giving the public The President: The final question from the hon. representatives in this hon. Court a copy of the letter (Mr member for Council, Mr Delaney. Delaney: Hear, hear.) so that we can judge for ourselves whether or not we have been misled? Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Bearing in mind the need to keep the public confidence in the planning Mr Walker: Yes, sir, that in fact may be the way. If I system, in particular with all the major planning do that, then I have to also circulate all the comments of applications we have, would the Chief Minister not agree the department on that letter. with me it would be right and proper that until this matter is sorted out to the satisfaction of members of Tynwald Mr Kermode: Why not? and to the general public it will cast a shadow over planning applications in general? Mr Walker: Well, if members want that, then I have no particular problem in that at all. I was going to suggest, Mr Walker: No, I do not agree with that comment, Mr sir, that if the department responds to Mr Wolstenholme President. • Santon Head Planning Scheme — Inquiry — Question by Mr Quine T388 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE OF will the people of the Isle of Man be afforded the same CHARLES BRIAN MALLON — INTERIM opportunity as the UK electorate to express their views? REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE — QUESTION BY MR KERMODE Mr Walker: Yes, we are obviously aware of the suggestions that are made in the UK that a referendum The President: Question 3, the hon. member for may be held, sir. We have certainly not entered into any Douglas East, Mr Kermode. discussion with Her Majesty's Government that such a referendum should be extended to the Isle of Man. I would Mr Kermode: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief certainly hope that that is not the case. I believe that if a Minister: referendum is to be held on this particular issue it has to be a decision of the Isle of Man Government rather than When will your government be introducing the UK's and we should not subordinate ourselves to her. legislation recommended by the Interim Report of the Select I do think we need to reflect on this one that we do not Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of need to tie our currency arrangements to those in the United Charles Brian Mallon, dated February 1995? Kingdom. We could tie them to any community in the world. It is by choice and I think common sense that we The President: The Chief Minister to reply. align ourselves to the currency that is in circulation in the United Kingdom but I do think it is pertinent just to keep Mr Walker: Mr President, provisions based on the that one in mind. recommendations of the Select Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Charles Brian Mallon are being Mr Rodan: Mr President, I thank the Chief Minister considered for inclusion in the Criminal Justice (No. 2) for his reply. Will the Council of Ministers, in that event, Bill which is in the legislative programme shown in the undertake to organise at the appropriate time an Island government's policy document for the year 1996-97. referendum in order to determine and convey to the UK Government the views of the Manx people on the future Mr Kermode: Thank you. of their currency?

Mr Walker: I think that has to be a matter for the SINGLE EUROPEAN CURRENCY — Council of Ministers at the time and I think the question VIEWS OF THE ISLE OF MAN — that needs to be addressed is one that would have to be QUESTION BY MR RODAN considered very carefully. Should we align our currency to a European currency or should we depart from our The President: Question 4, the hon. member for Garff, relationship with the United Kingdom and so on? I think Mr Rodan. there are a number of questions which would need to be determined in fine detail as to what would be asked but I Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief am sure that it is a matter that will be considered in due Minister: course.

In monitoring the progress towards a single European currency by member states of the European SOUND CAFE — PURCHASE OF LAND Union, do you intend to request the UK Government to — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN take into account the views of the Isle of Man and other members of the sterling area before a decision on British The President: Question 5, the hon. member for membership is made? Rushen, Mr Corrin.

The President: The Chief Minister to reply. Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: Mr Walker: Mr President, we will continue to monitor developments in relation to the single European currency Have negotiations been entered into with the owner and if we identify that the UK's proposals, whatever they of the Sound Cafe with a view to purchasing the land for may be, are likely to have a detrimental effect on the the Manx nation and, if so, what is the current position? interests of the Island we will make appropriate representations. However, at this stage we are not aware The President: The Chief Minister to reply. of any detrimental effects which would warrant that course of action. Mr Walker: The answer to the question, Mr President, is yes and the current position is that negotiations are Mr Rodan: A supplementary, if I may, Mr President. ongoing. Has discussion taken place with the UK Government over the reported possibility of their holding a future referendum Mr Corrin: Mr President, would the Chief Minister on UK membership and in the event of such a referendum agree that there are many people on this Island interested

Petition for Redress of Grievance of Charles Brian Mallon — Interim Report of the Select Committee — Question by Mr Kermode Single European Currency — Views of the Isle of Man — Question by Mr Rodan Sound Cafe — Purchase of Land — Question by Mr Corrin TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T389

that this area should become part of Manx heritage and Accordingly Mr Moore and not I has at all material times • will he make every effort to try and reach a successful advised and continues to advise Douglas Corporation. conclusion? Mr Kermode: In view of the letter I have had from the Mr Walker: Yes, I do hope there will be a successful Chairman of the Policy and Resources Committee in conclusion, Mr President, otherwise we would not have Douglas Corporation claiming the advice was given by embarked on this particular process, and I agree with the the Attorney-General to go off-Island for advice, can I ask hon. member that the area around the Sound, along with the Attorney-General, would it have been possible for the many other areas around our coastline, are particularly Corporation, in view of the knowledge he had of the beautiful and a lot of local people align themselves to it. concerns the Corporation had, could they have got that legal advice on-Island? Mr Coffin: Thank you, Mr President. The Attorney-General: Mr President, first of all I would make it clear that at no time have I given advice to DOUGLAS CORPORATION — Douglas Corporation. ADVICE RE QUEEN'S COUNSEL— The second situation is that I was not aware of the QUESTION BY MR KERMODE concerns of Douglas Corporation. I had correspondence with Mr Moore, I met with Mr Moore, I assumed that he The President: Question 6, the hon. member for raised any concerns. My instructions were one of co- Douglas East, Mr Kermode. operation towards the Corporation. The matter referred to a very minor agreement which is a preliminary agreement to other agreements. It refers to • Mr Kermode: Mr President, I beg leave to ask HM Attorney-General: Manx statutes. Mr Moore is an advocate of long-standing and a very senior member of the Isle of Man Law Society. Have you advised Douglas Corporation to seek the Indeed his firm has represented the Corporation for over a opinion of Queen's Counsel and, if so, why? hundred years. I would see no reason why Mr Moore could not adequately provide all advice required by the The President: The learned Attorney-General to reply. Corporation.

The Attorney-General: Mr President, I presume that Mr Kermode: I thank you for your reply, sir. the hon. member's question relates to the current matter between the Department of Local Government and the Environment, the Department of Tourism and Leisure and RONALDSWAY AIRPORT — NON-OPERATION Douglas Corporation relevant to the Villa Marina and in — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN particular the proposed agreement colloquially referred to as the design fees agreement. On the basis of such The President: Question 7, the hon. member for presumption the brief but accurate response to the hon. Michael, Mr Cannan. member's question is no. It would be inappropriate for me to tender advice to Douglas Corporation, particularly when Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Minister for relevant to matters between one or more departments of Transport: government and Douglas Corporation. When I received preliminary instructions in the matter (1) Who first informed you and at what time on 26th • from the departments I indicated to them that there must December 1995 that the airport was non- be no misunderstanding and that I would solely act on operational; behalf of the departments. I therefore indicated that if Douglas Corporation desired advice they would require to (2) what was the reason for the airport to be non- obtain independent advice and not look to me for such operational; and advice. The phrase 'independent advice' is well established. It (3) was the airport director on duty and what action means that if a party, for example Douglas Corporation, did he take to keep the travelling public fully seeks advice to a matter, then such advice is not sought informed about aircraft movements and the from the advocate who acts for the other parties, in this availability of facilities at the airport? instance the Department of Local Government and the Environment and the Department of Tourism and Leisure, The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. but from its own advocate. Prior to the dispatch to Douglas Corporation of the first Mr North: Mr President, I was first informed of the draft of the proposed agreement I received a letter dated problem affecting larger aircraft by the hon. member for 7th September 1995 from G R M Moore, advocate and Ayre at 1600 hours on the 26th. However, I understand senior partner of Dickinson, Cruickshank & Co. Mr Moore that the airport's duty manager had attempted to contact informed me that he had been instructed to act on behalf me mid-morning on Boxing Day but I was not at home. of Douglas Corporation in connection with the matter. May I also say that there is no laid-down requirement for • Douglas Corporation — Advice Re Queen's Counsel — Question by Mr Kermode Ronaldsway Airport — Non-Operation — Question by Mr Cannan T390 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 me to be contacted regarding weather delays at the airport highways sweeper drivers assisted by airport baggage and, for example, I do not expect to be informed every handlers and vehicle mechanics who worked throughout • time that flights are delayed by fog, strong crosswinds or the night in temperatures of -6°centigrade to clear sufficient a low cloud base, all of which are a regular occurrence of the runway width for 27th December. affecting passengers each year. On 27th December the airport was again receiving light The airport was not closed on Boxing Day until half aircraft traffic interspersed with continued sweeping. It was past 6, 1830 hours. During the day some flights had crucial to await a rise in air temperature to ensure that the operated, notably the midday scheduled service from de-icer would work effectively and, this is most important, Blackpool, plus some light aircraft movements. leave a dry runway afterwards that would not refreeze. To answer part (2) of the question, the reason for the Unfortunately, again a thaw was very slow in coming but airport to be non-operational, as I have mentioned the by 2 p.m. sufficient of the main runway was fit for all airport handled some lighter aircraft. However, the very aircraft to take off and land. Neither did it refreeze although poor braking action, as measured by the airport's MU the rest of the airfield remained snow and icebound for a meter, was leading the operators of larger aircraft to decide further 36 hours. not to fly for safety reasons. The airport has a relatively I have a letter from the operations director of Manx short main runway and when the braking action is poor, Airlines which congratulates my staff on the actions taken then there is insufficient safety margin if a large aircraft and he notes that any other response to the problem could has to abort its takeoff. have prevented them from flying until 28th December. It has been mentioned to me that aircraft were still While the weather conditions were undoubtedly operating at Liverpool airport which had suffered a similar exceptional and unlikely to be seen for more than a decade, snowfall on Boxing Day. However, the Liverpoorrunway I must remind members that flights are more often affected is some 30 per cent longer than ours and therefore the by other weather conditions which we are equally braking action calculation is less critical than ours. powerless to prevent. Despite all of this our airport has a • Regarding the snowfall, there is no airport that can much better overall weather record than many equivalent prevent snow from falling and laying, as the hon. member British airports, for which we should be grateful. for Michael will be aware from his days on the Airports To answer the third part, was the airport director on Board. At the time the Airports Board had no dedicated duty and what action did he take, the airport director and equipment to deal with snow and ice problems. the airport operations manager take it in turns to act as In 1993 my department's airport client team approved airport duty manager. Thus every night, weekend or public a new contingency plan for the airport which included holiday, one of them is constantly on call and they are purchasing a stock of 7,000 litres of de-icing fluid plus frequently telephoned to deal with matters as diverse as associated spray equipment. A judgement was taken that delayed flights requiring extensions, ambulance flights, 7,000 litres would be effective to disperse two snow air-sea rescue operations and operational incidents and coverings of less than one inch down to an air temperature problems of every description. of -4°C, such a temperature being an exceptionally rare During this Christmas week the airport director was on occurrence at the airport which is surrounded on three sides leave and the airport operations manager was the duty by relatively warm sea water. In the event, on Boxing Day manager. He has full authority to deputise in the airport the airport suffered a snowfall greater than one inch and director's absence. Despite being on leave for the week, ground temperatures stayed well below freezing. However, the airport director cancelled his later engagements on a sea breeze was forecast to pick up and thaw the snow Boxing Day to attend the airport from 4 p.m. and assisted covering naturally by midday. the operations manager. The operations manager had been The decision to await a natural thaw on Boxing Day at the airport since 5.30 a.m. on Boxing Day and finally was fully agreed with and endorsed by the operations left at 2 a.m. on the 27th. The airport director left at 7 p.m. department of the main operator, Manx Airlines. While on Boxing Day and took over as relief duty manager at the • awaiting the thaw my officials nevertheless carried out two airport from 5.30 a.m. on the following morning, working trial clearances mid-morning on Boxing Day. The first was continuously until 7 p.m. a very concentrated, five times the normal lay of de-icing The airlines are responsible for advising their customers fluid and it took four hours to disperse the snow and then regarding flight delays, the reasons for them and the the resulting wet surfaces refroze to sheet ice within the expected outcome. It is not the role of my department to hour. The second trial was to sweep the snow off using a take decisions regarding the possible cancellation of standard road sweeper. While this worked, it was a very commercial services. The airlines' role in informing their slow process. We cannot of course use road salt or grit on passengers applies equally to all delays arising from all runways which are corrosive and abrasive to airplanes and types of weather conditions or operational problems. The engines. airport's information desks are only authorised to give out In the event no thaw materialised on Boxing Day flight information that has been released to them by the because the light wind did not vary from north and airlines. Having said that, the airport's operations manager continued to bring freezing air down on the airfield from was in very close liaison with the airlines' operations • the hills in the centre of the Island. Therefore at 6 p.m. the department throughout the Boxing Day and kept them fully airport director took the decision to close the airfield advised and in agreement regarding actions being taken completely and commence all-night sweeping with two and the likely outcome. road sweepers. And here I must give full credit to our Very early on the 27th the airport director took over his Ronaldsway Airport — Non-Operation — Question by Mr Cannan • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T391

role and in view of the severe congestion being experienced millions we have spent upmarketing our airport and at the • in the terminal, compounded by frozen pipes, he made first situation where we have a difficulty the whole thing hourly public announcements from the information desk goes into chaos, will the minister explain what were the to supplement the airlines' announcements. The airport occurrences that came to the charging of these people, these director was physically in attendance on the information Manx people, handicapped at the airport, on the parking desk every hour and he also frequently toured the terminal and is there any intention to repay them for the parking building to check on conditions and reallocate resources fees they paid that day? as best he could in the circumstances. In addition, I authorised the airport director to prepare a press statement Mr North: Mr President, as far as I know, the situation which he recorded with Manx Radio at 6.30 a.m. on the at Ronaldsway regarding all the money that has been spent 27th. Members will be aware that Manx Airlines used to down there was for the facilities, but you cannot fit out have a regular flight watch spot on Manx Radio which any airport anywhere for one-off situations that might occur they discontinued. Therefore among the other matters that perhaps once every decade. So I can just say, yes, I my department is reviewing as a matter of urgency and as understand the problems, and as far as the parking is a result of these exceptional weather conditions is to discuss concerned, if I remember rightly, on Boxing Day when I with the airline how best their customers can be kept was told about the situation I asked the airport director informed during weather delays of whatever type. and the operations manager to open the barriers on the car In conclusion, everyone in my department very much park so that people were not charged. regrets that so many people were delayed by these weather conditions that coincided, unfortunately, with a peak travel Mr Quine: Are the events which took place at the airport period. However, I am satisfied that not only was the 1993 on the 25th and 26th not indicative of a severe breakdown snow contingency plan a responsible move to anticipate in relations or at least communications between your • and deal with likely weather conditions but that when faced administration and Manx Airlines, having regard to the with these more severe conditions all of my staff made fact that people were being advised by Manx Airlines exceptional efforts to resolve the situation which they did throughout the day to come from the north of the Island, at the earliest practical moment. to come and book in for their flights, and your department had apparently taken the decision that you were going to Mr Cannan: I thank the minister for his long and wait for a thaw on the following day? detailed response to this question, of which I think the public will take due note. Will the minister agree that very Mr North: Mr President, there is an element of truth in large numbers of people were very severely that question (Laughter) and the situation is being inconvenienced by the non-operation of the airport? But investigated. also will the minister agree that they were severely inconvenienced by the lack of facilities at the airport, catering facilities et cetera, which was not directly due to SHORE ROAD, GANSEY — COST OF WORKS the non-operation of aircraft? Over 2,000 people, will the — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN minister agree, were at one point assembled in the airport, that there were long queues extending throughout the The President: We move on, hon. members, to question terminal and outside the airport, and will he agree that there 8 and I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Corrin. was no water available for refreshment purposes, and will he agree that it is being alleged that the reason for no water Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for being available was that the pipes were frozen, that the Transport: • pipes were a temporary pipe which is a plastic pipe which has not been repaired and comes out through a window In connection with preserving the integrity of the and over a roof and that that temporary pipe, even as late Shore Road from Gansey Mill Corner to the Shore Hotel, as last night, has still not been repaired? Will he agree? what has been the cost over the nine years to 31st (Laughter) December 1995 -

Mr North: Mr President, I agree with most of what the (a) in respect of bulwark construction, ground borings hon. member for Michael says because it was most and road alignment; and unfortunate and all I can do is sympathise with the, as he says, 2,000 people that were inconvenienced. It was a most (b) of the placing of boulders on the shore? exceptional, unusual occurrence. I am afraid I have only been told that the pipes were frozen by the temperature The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. down there. I know nothing about any temporary pipe. As I say, I apologise for the inconvenience but I am afraid Mr North: Mr President, I thank the hon. member for there was nothing that could be done with the weather under Rushen for his question and would like to inform the Court the circumstances. that a total of f1,129,233 has been spent on various works at Shore Road, Rushen since the breach of the sea wall on Mr Delaney: A very short supplementary. Bearing in 9th March 1989 up to 31st December 1995. mind, will the minister agree with me, all the millions and

• Shore Road, Gansey — Cost of Works — Question by Mr Corrin T392 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

The cost of work in respect of concrete sea wall settlement without damage. The revetment also reduces construction, site investigation fees and road alignment the effects of ground vibrations due to wave slam and the has been £746,279 and the cost of placing the boulders on overtopping of traditional sea walls. I am confident that the shore, the rock revetment, has been £382,953. the revetment sea defence is an effective solution to many problems faced by my department and faced at Shore Road, Mr Corrin: I thank the hon. member for his reply. Rushen. I would now like to refer to the second part of the hon. Mr Cretney: Can I have a footpath in Saddle Road, member's question, namely the localised settlement of the please? road surface outside the Motorlands garage site. This problem was first observed in mid-July 1992, although no obvious cause could be found. My department has commissioned extensive site investigation and engaged the GANSEY SHORE ROAD — PROTECTION — geo-technical group of Acer's to advise on the probable REPAIR — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN cause of the settlement and to recommend remedial measures. The investigative work has included the sinking The President: Question 9, the hon. member for of boreholes to provide geological information, a ground- Rushen, Mr Corrin. probing radar study to detect the presence of any voids, and the installation of a magnetic extensometer to Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister determine the precise location of the settlement. for Transport: The latest report was received from Acer's on 28th December 1995. The report confirmed that migration of (1) Are you satisfied with the design, construction and fines due to hydraulic gradients could be a major factor effectiveness of the bulwark sea defences responsible for the settlement or subsidence. The report constructed to protect the Gansey Shore Road; and • further recommends that a sheet pile wall will be constructed behind the sea wall to cut off the water flow (2) what measures do you intend to take to repair the and a shallow drainage system installed at the level of the sinking road? pile head to allow ground water discharge into the sea. The report will be considered by my department and, if The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. approved, will enable detailed design work to commence with the objective of having the works completed and Shore Mr North: Mr President, the hon. member for Rushen, Road fully operational before the forthcoming summer with his question, would remind the Court that a 50-metre season. breach in the sea wall at Shore Road, Rushen took place on 9th March 1989 following an exceptionally high tide Mr Corrin: Mr President, would the minister combined with strong winds. Emergency repairs were understand my concern when I say now and would he agree carried out immediately by my department's works with me and express concern that in view of what he has division, working non-stop day and night and thereby told this Court of moneys spent and for the layman to go preventing a major disaster. The permanent strengthening down and observe what has happened with the new work commenced at the end of May 1989 in the area of concrete bulwark, that in itself is sinking and at the road? the breach. Is the minister also aware that as recently as Friday 5th The emergency repairs were carried out utilising precast January I reported to his office a hole in the seawall? concrete retaining wall units which had been designed and Looking underneath, there was a cavern underneath the manufactured by the department and were in stock for such pavement stretching to the road. I observed last night that contingencies. This enabled an immediate response by the the officers, your men, have refilled that. To sum it up, • department. Subsequently, it was decided to strengthen a therefore, could I ask the minister if he can give an further section of the sea wall using a similar concept. In assurance that until such time as his officers do decide this case, however, precast units of a greater height were what course of action to take, the road is actually safe itself? purchased from a UK supplier. Subsequent problems have It is sinking. Is it safe? Is there a likelihood or not of a been experienced in the erosion of the concrete face from heavy vehicle, with school buses travelling on that road, wave action compounded by a continued lowering of the is that road safe? Can he give that assurance? foreshore at Bay ny Carrickey. The problem of foreshore lowering and coastal erosion Mr North: Mr President, to my knowledge the advice and the undermining of vertical or near-vertical concrete that my officers have received is that that road is safe and walls is a worldwide problem. Experience gained in recent if at any time it becomes unsafe - and it is monitored years has led to a critical examination of traditional hard continually - then action would be taken. I understand the sea defences and most engineers now favour soft defences. hon. member's concerns. The rock revetment constructed in front of the precast concrete wall and later extended in front of the limestone Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary. Would the wall is an example of a soft sea defence. The revetment minister not agree with me that the fact of the matter is the helps to reduce the force of the incoming waves and, being most effective way of dealing with the protection of this a flexible structure, will accommodate movement or Shore Road is the placing of groynes within the bay and

Gansey Shore Road — Protection — Repair — Question by Mr Corrin • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T393

• does he not feel that really the present policy of dealing In answer to part (2) of the question, the department is with it in the way it is being dealt with at the present time presently satisfied with procedures for the security of really is being penny-wise and pound-foolish, because the animals at the park, although such an issue is continuously long-term way of dealing with it is to place groynes out in monitored. It must be remembered that the Wildlife Park the bay to break the sea force coming in? is a leisure amenity and must justify its existence by the service which it provides. The park endeavours to display Mr North: Mr President, there was a full report animals in an open environment whilst being conscious of commissioned some time ago to try and determine the nearby residents. correct way forward and certainly I think groynes were Obviously security is a primary concern in relation to considered. What I should mention to the hon. member is any animal which is potentially dangerous. However, with that it is not just the action of the sea that is the problem. regard to the remainder which are non-dangerous animals There are two problems at Bay ny Carrickey. One is caused and represent the vast majority of the animals within the by the sea, the other one is caused, as I have said, from the park, there is a need to balance security against animal land with water and springs which are very, very deep welfare and public accessibility. The department believes arterial water and the two combined create a very difficult that it has got the balance about right and would certainly problem which has caused a lot of concern amongst the not wish to see a situation where all the animals are fully experts. caged. Indeed our experience in relation to the recent monkey escape will be evaluated and any lessons learned taken on board. WILDLIFE PARK — ESCAPEES The department is satisfied with the park's escape — QUESTION BY MR QUINE procedures, these being in line with requirements for membership of the Zoo Federation. As part of that • The President: Question 10, the hon. member for Ayre. procedure the police are advised of any escape of potentially dangerous animals. However, in view of the Mr Quine: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Tourism recent public concerns we have determined that in future and Leisure, sir: we will advise the police of all escapes. With regard to part (3) of the question, as I have (1) During the period 1st January 1994 to 31st indicated, the police will be advised of any escape from December 1995 - the park. If it is considered necessary, the park management and the police will issue any appropriate public warnings (a) how many animals, birds and reptiles have or advice. I can advise you that the safety of the public is escaped from the Wildlife Park, Ballaugh, and afforded the highest priority by both the Wildlife Park and my department. However, the department is of the view (b) how many of such animals, birds and reptiles that normally there is no need to issue public statements in have been recaptured; relation to the escape of a non-dangerous animal such as the monkey or such as a bird, as to do so could risk raising (2) are you satisfied with the arrangements at the unnecessary public alarm and potentially also put the Wildlife Park for securing such animals, birds and species at risk. reptiles, and for the early recapture of escapees; Finally, I would like to use this opportunity to extend and my thanks to the residents in the area who have assisted the Wildlife Park in their endeavours to recapture the • (3) what is your department's practice in respect of animals and birds that have escaped. Their support is very notifying the public of the escape of animals and much appreciated. birds, and issuing advice to ensure the safety of the general public? Mr Quine: Does the minister consider it satisfactory that it should take almost two months to recover a monkey The President: The Minister for Tourism and Leisure which had escaped from this zoo and does he consider to reply. that his response arrangements are adequate having regard to the complaint that has been lodged with him by Lezayre Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. The answer to Parish Commissioners that this monkey was captured for part (1) of the question is that the Wildlife Park is home to two days and it was only after your staff refused to respond some 460 specimens of different types of species. During or did not respond that it had to be released? Is there not the period 1st January 1994 to 31st December 1995 a total something wrong with the arrangements when that of eight animals and three birds escaped from the park. situation should occur? No reptiles escaped. The animals which escaped comprised of three monkeys, two mara, one capybara and two coati. Mr Brown: Mr President, firstly, two months to capture • All of the animals, apart from the two coati, were an animal: are we satisfied? I suppose we can say yes and subsequently recaptured. The coati which escaped in no to that because we would have liked to captured the December 1994 are presumed dead. Of the three birds one, animal earlier but I wonder how many have tried to capture a white stork, has evaded recapture since September 1995 a cat or something like that that does not want to be caught. and endeavours are still being made to capture this bird. And a monkey of course can climb trees very quickly and • Wildlife Park — Escapees — Question by Mr Quine T394 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 so on. And there are procedures in how the Wildlife Park (c) what further works do you intend to carry out; and try to recapture the animals that do go loose. • As far as the letter from the Lezayre Parish (d) when do you intend to commence work, and what Commissioners is concerned, my department has date are the contracts to be completed? responded to that and it is fair to say, as I understand it, we refute the point that the actual monkey was kept in a place The President: The Minister for Local Government and and nobody responded to go and get it. In fact my the Environment to reply. understanding is there is no record of it. Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. In responding Mr Quine: Is the minister aware of the problem which to the hon. member's question I would refer to recent has developed over a number of years, to give you an correspondence between the hon. member and myself on example, where geese have escaped from the park and have this subject, the last such detailed letter being on 2nd bred in the Curraghs and are now in such numbers that November 1995. they are stripping crops and seeds from the fields? Is he The answers to the hon. member's questions are as aware of that and has he any proposals to deal with that? follows. Part (a) - the total cost of refurbishment over the 10-year period to 31st December 1995 was £38,000. Mr Brown: Mr President, until the hon. member has Part (b) - the following major items of work have been now notified me of it, the member for the area, I was not completed: the replacement of all existing wooden aware of it. I think I would make one point also, that under windows with double-glazed UPVC units at a cost of the alleviation of unemployment schemes a scheme to £38,000. fence the perimeter of the park has been undertaken in the Part (c), with regard to further works to be carried out last couple of years and this has now been completed and by the department, these are: creating a new car park in whilst it will not necessarily succeed in keeping the the gardens of numbers 7 and 8 Fairy Hill - planning • monkeys in, or the birds, it should be able to prevent any permission has just been granted, tenders are out at the other animals from getting out of the Wildlife Park. moment and work should commence before the end of As for the point the member made about geese out in March 1996, to be completed within eight weeks; the the Curraghs, then certainly I will raise that with the replacement of front and back doors, cost £23,000, awaiting Wildlife Park manager and see if there is anything we can return of tenders on 18th January 1996 for completion by do about it. the end of March 1996; upgrading of separate toilet and bathroom fittings at a cost of £6,000 - this is ongoing, the Mr Kermode: The fence is to keep the minister out! work commenced after April 1995 and is intended for completion before the end of March 1996; the upgrading Mr Cannan: Can I make the minister aware that the of all electrical fittings to MEA standards at a cost of £3,000 stripping of the crops by the geese is so severe that - this is ongoing, work commenced after April 1995 and is applications for compensation have already been made to intended for completion before the end of March 1996; the Attorney-General's department? and final refurbishment works to numbers 1-18 Fairy Hill are to continue following appraisal of refurbishment works Mr Cretney: And refuted. carried out on Vicarage Close, Ballabeg - this is not due to commence before April 1998 and the approximate length Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President, all I can say is that I am of contract will be about 40 weeks. not aware of any claims and I am sure that if anybody has I think part (d), the details of when the work will made claims they will be dealt with in the normal way. commence and the date of the contracts, I have answered in answering part (c) of the question. Thank you, Mr President. • HOUSES AT FAIRY HILL, RUSHEN — REFURBISHMENT — Mr Corrin: Mr President, notwithstanding that clearly QUESTION BY MR CORRIN the minister cannot be responsible for the time, is the minister satisfied with the performance of his department, The President: Question 11, the hon. member for bearing in mind that the representation from the occupants Rushen, Mr Corrin. of these houses commenced on 3rd August 1993 by way of a petition? And I have here a list of letters of Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for correspondence. Promises have been made, promises have Local Government and the Environment: been broken. I do welcome the firm dates that he has now given to the Court but will he accept that there has been a In respect of house numbers 1-18 Fairy Hill, dismal performance by his department and the breaking Rushen - of promises in connection with the refurbishment of these houses? (a) what has been the cost of refurbishment over the 10-year period to 31st December 1995; Mr Kermode: Terrible.

(b) what major items of work have been completed; Mr Groves: Mr President, as the hon. member has said, Houses at Fairy Hill, Rushen — Refurbishment — Question by Mr Corrin • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T395

we are trying to address the issues which he has raised estate, and the other one is that his reference to with me directly during the late summer and autumn period apportionment of land means the future non-health service and I am pleased that he is recognising the fact that I am use of any of the Westmoreland Road land currently used putting dates by which certain works will be carried out. for health services purposes. He will, I am sure, understand that I am not in a position As the hon. member will no doubt recall, discussions to be able to really make comment as to what has happened on this basis have been held with the Department of in the past prior to my tenure at the department. Education concerning the possible conveyance to that Certainly the hon. member will be aware that in October department of the recently completed ward block and the I gave him an undertaking that the chairman of the estates postgraduate medical centre when those buildings are and housing division in my department, Mr Rodan, the vacated following completion of a new hospital at hon. member for Garff, would visit, with department Ballamona. Any such transfer would be at commercial officials, Fairy Hill and meet with some of the residents. valuation and the Council of Ministers were advised of That meeting took place and certainly as a result of that this proposal at the time. No discussions of a similar nature visit some of the information which I have imparted today have been held or are arranged to be held with any other has been determined accordingly, and I hope the hon. party. No detailed discussion has, as yet, taken place on member will appreciate the department, in addition to the the exact extent of the site of any transfer to the Department very important issues viewed from the residents of Fairy of Education. Hill, have similar important issues from other residents in other areas and we do have to make priority decisions. Mr Corrin: Mr President, on reflection would the hon. Sometimes these decisions will not lie comfortably with minister not agree with me that at a minimum it was unwise those who are lower down the list and those who are higher and insensitive of him and his colleague minister, Mrs up, but nevertheless we do have to make these Hannan, to pre-empt the outcome of statutory planning uncomfortable decisions very often. procedures? And furthermore, does it not give a message to those who legally oppose and work through the agreed Mr Cringle: Mr President, accepting that the hon. procedures that their efforts are futile and that as far as the minister has priorities and other areas have equal government is concerned the Ballamona Hospital site issue difficulties, he has given a date for 1-18 Fairy Hill. Has he is cut and dried? got a date for the remainder of that estate? Mr May: Absolutely not, Mr President. It is the duty Mr Groves: I think the short answer at the moment, of any department of government acting responsibly to Mr President, is no, I cannot answer the hon. member's plan ahead and to look to the future. The Department of question, but I will seek to find out the answer to that one Education have two schools within the immediate vicinity and let him have it separately if that is okay. which are quite elderly and certainly not up to modern expectations. It is quite a natural procedure, I would have thought, and a responsible procedure, to look to the future NOBLE'S HOSPITAL SITE — FUTURE USE and hold discussions with interested parties. (Mr Groves: — QUESTION BY MR CORRIN Hear, hear.) As I say, discussions have been held, nothing has been signed and nothing has been put down in detailed The President: Question 12, the hon. member for agreement, sir. Rushen, Mr Corrin.

Mr Corrin: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the IMPORTATION OF DAIRY AND MEAT Minister for Health and Social Security: PRODUCTS — DEROGATION WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION — QUESTION BY DR MANN (1) Have you, at any time, held discussions with a third party to determine the future use of the Noble's The President: Question 13, the hon. member for Hospital site anti, if so - Council, Dr Mann.

(2) (a) who was the third party; and Dr Mann: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: (b) was there provisional agreement on apportionment of land? Is it your intention -

The President: The Minister for Health and Social (a) to negotiate a derogation with the European Union Security to reply. controlling the importation of dairy products to the Isle of Man during the lifetime of this government; Mr May: Mr President, in responding to the hon. and member's question I would make two assumptions. The first is that he is referring to the use of the Westmoreland (b) to apply for an extension of the existing derogation Road site as the location of the central region community controlling the importation of meat products to the hospital when a new hospital is in use on the Ballamona Isle of Man due to expire this year?

• Noble's Hospital Site — Future use — Question by Mr Corrin Importation of Dairy and Meat Products — Derogation with the European Union — Question by Dr Mann T396 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and what consultations were held prior to the agreement? • and Forestry to reply. The President: The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, in response to part (a) of and Forestry to reply. the hon. member's question I would advise that I am due to have meetings with all representative sectors of the Manx Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, Spanish and Portuguese farming community shortly and will take the opportunity vessels have never had rights to fish in Manx territorial • at these meetings to discuss issues such as mentioned in waters and that continues to be the case. With regard to part (a) of this question. I can assure members that it is my the recent Spanish and Portuguese access to British and intention to consult fully to ensure that the farming Irish waters, access has been agreed only in respect of the community is fully supportive of any such application 12 to 200 miles area. should one be made. The Irish Sea was described in the Port Erin Marine As regards part (b) of the question, an application for Laboratory exhibition as 'the surrounded sea'. It contains extension of the existing derogation was submitted through the 12-mile limits of the Isle of Man, the United Kingdom the United Kingdom authorities in mid-1995. At the same and the Republic of Ireland. What British and Irish waters time the necessary statistical information was provided to remain outside those 12-mile limits in the Irish Sea area the UK authorities to enable them to prcivide the European were not included in the agreement on access. Thank you, Commission with the information it needed to submit the Eaghtyrane. required report on the derogation's operation to the European Council. The products covered by the derogation Dr Mann: Mr President, I thank the minister for are sheep meat, beef and veal. confirmation of this fact. Is it possible, though, that the It is understood that pressure of business has prevented quota of fishing allocated to the Isle of Man fishing industry the request for extension being considered as yet. A is reduced as a result of the recent agreement? • temporary extension has been granted until the end of January 1996 to permit consideration at the Council's Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, this is not an area which is January meeting. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. usually fished by Manx vessels. Some vessels do fish in this area but not usually. It tends to be to the north and The President: A supplementary, sir. around Scotland.

Dr Mann: I thank the hon. minister for her reply, but Mr Corrin: Mr President, could I ask the hon. minister could I ask her, have you been briefed by the Chief Minister would she confirm that in fact the Isle of Man does not on matters concerning part (a) of the question on assuming have a quota because our vessels fish in what is termed your appointment, as your predecessor claimed that he had the 'non-sector'? been kept in the dark on this issue? Mrs Hannan: Our vessels have to comply with quota Mrs Hannan: I have been briefed, Eaghtyrane, by the restrictions and any restrictions in the European waters Chief Minister, by the Attorney General, by my officers in have to conform to the European fishing legislation. the department and I have also, to date, had a meeting with the Milk Marketing Association chief executive and chair. Mr Corrin: It is not what I said, Mr President. It is not Thank you. what I asked.

Dr Mann: Mr President, a further supplementary. Mr Cretney: Mr President, could I ask the minister Would the minister agree that continuing indecision on would she agree with me that the ultimate aspiration of this matter is definitely threatening success? the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry • should be an extension from 12 miles to the median line Mrs Hannan: I would not agree with the member's and if that is the case would she not agree with me that suggestion, Eaghtyrane. there would be an impact on that? Mrs Hannan: No, I would not agree with that, Eaghtyrane, because the median line would not be affected MANX TERRITORIAL WATERS — ADDITIONAL because the zones which have been included in the Irish FISHING RIGHTS — QUESTION BY DR MANN Box are not in VIIa which would be affected by the median line. The President: Question 14, the hon. member for the Council, Dr Mann. Dr Mann: Mr President, would the minister then agree, as she has agreed that the Manx fisheries quota is part of Dr Mann: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister the whole, that there has been a reduction then in the for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: amount that can be fished by Manx fishermen?

What additional rights of access to fish have been Mrs Hannan: As I have said before, Eaghtyrane, Manx granted to Spanish and Portuguese boats in Manx vessels do not usually fish in this area. There might be territorial waters by the recent European Union agreement one, to my knowledge, that would be fishing in what is Manx Territorial Waters — Additional Fishing Rights — Question by Dr Mann • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T397

described as the Irish Box which is VIIg, and I can circulate Mr Gelling: Mr President, certainly for the first eight • the map for members if they would wish. So I cannot agree years of the FSC's existence the licence fees did in fact with the submission that the member is suggesting within cover the regulation but that was very much during a time this particular area. Any changes within quota restrictions of development of schemes and developing of the obviously have an effect on what Manx vessels can fish commission. We have of course of recent times taken on for and the changes will make a difference, the changes in regulation and supervision of areas of business which this the quotas and what has been agreed within the fishing court would have debated at the time which do not have policy will make a difference, but not the extension into fees, so therefore there is a situation that has now arisen the Irish box of the Spanish and Portuguese especially. whereby for the first time I think it was last year and this year we do look to a deficit for the Financial Supervision Commission because of its... FINANCIAL SUPERVISION COMMISSION A Member: Expansion. — STAFFING AND SALARIES — QUESTION BY MR RODAN Mr Gelling: Yes, correct, its expansion into areas of regulation that it did not regulate in the past, Mr President. The President: Question 15, the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan. Mr Rodan: A further supplementary, Mr President. If the deficit of the FSC is now in practice funded by the Mr Rodan: I beg to ask the Chairman of the Financial Treasury and costs are not expected to be covered by fees Supervision Commission: does the minister see it as a priority that the fees charged should be kept competitive with other jurisdictions? • In respect of the Financial Supervision Commission - The President: Reply, sir.

(1) what was the total amount paid in salaries for the Mr Gelling: Indeed, Mr President, that is something financial year 1994-1995; which we follow very, very closely because, as was announced at our seminar only on Friday, we are in a very, (2) how many staff were employed as at 31st December very competitive position now in the world of offshore 1995; banking and investment and we are very, very keen to make sure that our licence fees are kept very, very competitive (3) what are the current salaries of the - and, if possible, that they actually have an edge.

(a) chief executive, Mr Delaney: If I may ask a supplementary, Mr President, in relation to part (3) of the question dealing (b) head of banking supervision, and with the salaries of the chief executive, the head of banking supervision and the head of financial services, could the (c) head of financial services; and minister tell us are any increases in those salaries governed by the Civil Service percentage increases, are they privately (4) on the basis of current information, what is the negotiated or is it a case of potluck? anticipated deficit for the financial year 1995-1996? Mr Gelling: Mr President, they are not governed by The President: The Chairman of the Financial but certainly they take the lead from the Civil Service • Supervision Commission to reply. Commission in respect of increases in salary. But if the hon. member is referring back to an identical question in Mr Gelling: Mr President, the answer to the first part March 1993 and you see a difference, there has actually of the question is £460,200. Part (2) of the question is 17. been a restructuring of the FSC after the Civil Service Part (3)(a) is £77,500 and it is a non-pensionable post. Commission's organised M and 0, I think they call it, Part (3)(b) is £46,250 and (c) £46,500 and part (4) is throughout the Financial Supervision Commission and they £155,800. brought in people from across to actually assess not only the staffing but the structure of the FSC and it was Mr Rodan: Mr President, I thank the hon. minister for restructured so some of those positions have actually his reply. In relation to the answer given to part (4) of the altered since the last time the question was asked. question can the minister tell us what is the relationship between the operating costs of the FSC which we have Dr Mann: Mr President, could I ask the minister what just heard will be at deficit this year and the level of fees the current deficit is for a financial year and who is actually charged to the finance industry for the various schemes responsible for monitoring the costs and seeing that they and financial products which they regulate? Is the FSC are not getting out of control? expected to cover its costs out of these fees or is the Treasury simply responsible for funding its operation by Mr Gelling: I am sorry, Mr President, obviously the subsidy? commissioners are monitoring the way in which the • Financial Supervision Commission — Staffing and Salaries — Question by Mr Rodan T398 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 supervision of our industry is carried out and they have to whose pay is controlled by separate bodies but these submit to the Treasury in the same way as any department gentlemen's salaries are controlled only by your Treasury • of government their budgetary requirements and they go department, as I understand it, that when you are through exactly the same situation as all of the departments negotiating in the future you will consider the comparison do in having to substantiate those costs, and I would suggest between what these people had had they been placed in to the hon. member that this is a situation whereby even the Isle of Man at £77,000 at the low tax charged in the for our designated territory status there is a certain Isle of Man against their equivalent salary scale in Britain classification of regulation which has to be in place, and a tax payment of nearly £110,000? Will the minister otherwise we would lose it, and these are the conditions make sure that is borne in mind? and the set standards that we have to uphold. So therefore it is something that is always under scrutiny and certainly Mr Gelling: Mr President, all aspects of someone to for the cost of the commission this has to come before the put in a position such as this are considered and certainly Treasury in exactly the same way as any other department to attract the right person into that position is often very, of government. very difficult. But I can assure hon. members that when these positions are being filled and when we look at the Mr Cretney: Mr President, could I ask the minister? position that we are asking the person to take up we In his response to part (3)(a) he indicated the chief compare it with, for obvious reasons, the civil service spine executive's salary of £77,000 per annum was a non- structure but we also have to consider the people that they pensionable post. Is that because it has been assumed he are regulating and the salaries that some of those people can make his own pension arrangements? are achieving and usually it is from that direction that we Mr Gelling: Indeed, Mr President, the position was of are looking to recruit. So certainly, the hon. member, we course in position before I went to the Treasury and it was do consider all the points that he has raised. • something that was agreed with the gentleman at the time and of course it does have a remarkable effect on that Mr Christian: Mr President, I wonder if the minister, amount of that salary. In fact we have even had that to the having given us the answer to part (4) of the question, the actuary, to our pension office and when you look at that in anticipated deficit for the financial year, would indicate to correspondence with or alongside some of our other us what the budgeted deficit, if there was one, was for this offshore jurisdictions our officer is by no means, in fact I year? would suggest he is at the bottom of the pile. Mr Gelling: The actual deficit that was budgeted for Mr Downie: Mr President, would the Treasury Minister was £200,000. not agree that because of the recent growth in the Treasury department and indeed some of the appendages attached Mr Corrin: Mr President, would the hon. minister to the Treasury department it is time that a section was counterbalance the implied criticism of the officers by included in the Chief Minister's policy document outlining revealing these salaries today by pointing out the the proposed expansion of the Treasury and indeed the importance of the posts they hold and the importance of duties and the Financial Arrangements allied to the various the industry that they supervise and the income that is appendages like the financial supervision which are generated for this Island? attached to the Treasury? Members: Hear, hear. Mr Gelling: Well. Mr President, whether or not there is a section in the policy document I suggest is something Mr Gelling: Mr President, I am quite sure that hon. that certainly we can take on board or should I say the • members, if they are not aware, should be aware of the Chief Minister will be listening to the member. But after importance of the industry and if that industry is important, all, every time there is a new section of regulation or there which we have confirmed it is, this is something that goes is another area of our industry which causes concern and along with it. It is the regulation of that industry. It is one the Treasury are asked to take that on board someone has of the areas that up to, as I say, two years ago, we were to do it and the obvious place to do it is those who are in able to finance from the fees from licensed business, but the regulatory field. So this is something that I would we have moved now into areas of regulation and suggest that members are aware of because usually it comes supervision which are not licensed, so therefore we have before this very Court. So therefore it is something that moved into a deficit position, and I would suggest that has expanded but I would suggest it is probably now at a perhaps that amount at the bottom is a very small price stage where our designated status has been reconfirmed when you think of the income that is actually being so therefore I do not envisage, unless the Treasury are asked to take on any more duties, that it will be enlarged any generated by that industry. further. The President: Hon. members, that concludes our Mr Delaney: Could I ask the Minister for the Treasury, examination of questions for oral answer. The remaining bearing in mind like other persons employed through the questions are for written answer and the answers have been Manx taxpayer such as civil servants and manual workers circulated and are in your possession. Financial Supervision Commission — Staffing and Salaries — Question by Mr Rodan • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T399

LIMITED LIABILITY PARTNERSHIPS Secondary • — INTRODUCTION OF LEGISLATION — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN Ballakermeen High School FOR WRITTEN ANSWER Replacement of the windows in H block was completed and the heating in the block upgraded £73,000 • Question 16

The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask the Castle Rushen High School Minister for the Treasury: Replacement of the roof lights on flat roof areas, installation of a new fire alarm system, new emergency Do you intend to introduce legislation in the lights and fire doors £110,000 immediate future that will enable large professional firms to register as limited liability partnerships? St Ninian's High School (Park Road Section) Answer Construction of a new toilet block £50,000

Limited partnerships are permitted under Manx law. Ramsey Grammar School (West) Subsequent to a recent decision of the High Court in Continuation of the replacement of existing boilers pipework, pumps and England relevant to a firm of accountants, some of the larger accountancy firms are considering whether to electrical wiring £45,000 establish limited partnerships in an offshore jurisdiction. • Discussions are taking place between the Treasury QEII High School through its commercial development division and some Upgrading of the school's central of the larger accountancy firms which have practices on heating system £35,000 the Island, the purpose of which is to ascertain whether the objectives of using limited partnerships by such firms Kensington Road/Douglas Youth Club can be achieved under our present legislation or would Refurbishment of the basement area £264,957 require legislative changes. If such legislative changes are considered necessary and appropriate, then it would be the Isle of Man College intention of the Treasury to introduce the same as soon as Complete upgrading of six classrooms practicable. in the technology block £90,000

Primary DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION — MINOR Fairfield Junior School CAPITAL WORKS — QUESTION BY Creation of a new entrance and MR CANNAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER reception area leading into the school off Tynwald Street, a disabled toilet, Question 17 medical room and staff toilets £85,000

• The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask the Laxey Primary School Minister for Education: Improvements to fire precautions, central heating window replacement (1) Will you itemise expenditure in respect of minor and upgrading of a classroom £35,000 capital works undertaken by your department during the current financial year; Murrays Road Junior School Replacement of all the worn-out (2) what is the proposed programme for your convectors in the school with departmental minor capital works during the conventional radiators £20,000 financial year 1996-97; and Onchan Primary School (3) who determines and approves the programme for Upgrading two classrooms in the your departmental minor capital works? infants area, creating a shared activity area, a new porch, library and Answer multi-purpose room £85,000

(1) The expenditure involved in the department's minor Peel Clothworkers School capital works programme during the current financial year Upgrading and refurbishment of totalled £1,050,000. This amount was spent as follows: four junior classrooms £90,000

Limited Liability Partnerships — Introduction of Legislation — Question by Mr Cannan For Written Answer Department of Education — Minor Capital Works — Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer T400 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Willaston Primary School Fairfield Junior School Continuation of the complete electrical Roof repairs, involving the replacement • rewiring of the school £45,000 of lead valleys, gutters and roof members £45,000

Contingency £14,000 Laxey Primary School Roof and window repairs £37,500 TOTAL £1,050,000 Manor Park School (2) The department's proposed programme for the Felt roof repairs and replacement of glass minor capital works scheme in the next financial year 1996- roof lights £53,000 97 is as follows: Onchan Primary School Secondary Upgrading of infants classbase and activity area £45,000 Ballakermeen High School External repairs, roof, rendering, lintels Refelting the flat roof of the craft and external joinery £56,000 and science block £75,000 Progression of the fire precautions Rushen Primary School in the west building involving the Infants section flat roof repairs £55,000 installation of fire doors and associated fire check measures £26,000 St Mary's Roman Catholic School Upgrading of two classrooms and activity St Ninian's High School area phase 2 £47,000 • (Park Road Section) Extension of the playground, creation Willaston Primary School of a hard play area and staff car park £78,000 Completion of electrical rewiring, phase 3 £10,000 St Ninian's High School Upgrading of central heating boilers £55,000 (St Ninian's Section) Refurbishment of staff and pupils toilets Isle of Man College phase 1 £57,000 (Technology Block) Castle Rushen High School Felt roof repairs, gutter replacements, Replacement of the roof of the gymnasium rendering work, replacement of windows, and design fees for the refurbishment of the upgrading gas supply to laboratories, gymnasium £50,000 external painting, installation of non-slip Creation of a bus lay-by to improve traffic flooring in workshops and health and safety management £65,000 signage £74,500 Refelting the flat roof areas £58,000 Contingency at 1.06 per cent of total fund QEII High School available £12,000 Upgrading of the central heating system involving the replacement of worn out TOTAL £1,129,000 fan heaters with conventional radiators £47,000 (3) The minor capital works programme is drawn from • Ramsey Grammar School a portfolio of works compiled by the department's works section. The portfolio has been compiled as a result of a (East Building) Replacement of windows £50,000 comprehensive survey of the department's building stock in order to identify vital building works. The work Installation of fire doors (ground floor and first floor corridors) £60,000 identified in the survey is necessary to refurbish, upgrade, improve and protect the fabric of the department's schools, Ramsey Grammar School the Isle of Man College and other buildings and is distinct (West Building) from repairs. The works involved represent a range of Refelting the flat roofs of classrooms priorities which have been determined by changes in such areas as health and safety legislation, fire regulations, 33, 34 and 35 (next to hall and dining room £38,000 energy conservation and the need to improve the quality of the built environment in response to changing standards Primary of living and public expectation regarding the quality of the buildings provided for educational purposes of all kinds. Anagh Coar School All of these imperatives are confirmed by departmental Replacement of roof lights and flat policy. Accordingly, these priorities represent a backlog roof repairs phase 1 £35,000 of work which needs to be addressed in a systematic,

Department of Education — Minor Capital Works — Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T401

organised and timely way. WATER SUPPLY PIPES — REPAIR AND • The determination and approval of the annual MAINTENANCE — QUESTION BY programme of minor capital works is undertaken initially MR RODAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER by the department and then submitted for Treasury approval. Question 20

The hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Water Authority: AIRPORT DIRECTOR — SALARY — QUESTION BY MR CANNAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER (1) For which categories of water supply pipes is your authority responsible for repair and maintenance; Question 18 and

The hon. member for Michael, Mr Cannan, to ask the (2) are you satisfied that the Water Act 1991 adequately Minister for Transport: serves the interests of customers whose supply pipes are damaged by vehicular traffic? What is the gross annual salary, including allowances, of the airport director? Answer

Answer Part (1)

• The annual salary scale of the airport director's post is: The categories of water supply pipe and responsibilities for repairs and maintenance are set out in the Water Act Spinal Point WEF 1/4/95 1991. In section 46 definitions are given of 'Mains', 39 35,981 `Service Pipes', and 'Communication Pipes ' ; these are: 40 37,395 "main" means a pipe laid by the Authority or any of its 41 38,866 predecessors for the purpose of giving a general supply of 42 40,396 water as distinct from a supply to individual consumers, 43 41,987 and includes any apparatus used in connection with such a pipe; The only allowances payable to the post are in respect "service pipe" means so much of any pipe for supplying of casual mileage and home telephone rental. water from a main to any premises as is subject to water pressure from that main, or would be so subject but for the closing of some tap; COLLECTIVE INVESTMENT SCHEMES "communication pipe" means - — NUMBER AND VALUE — QUESTION BY MR RODAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER (a) where the premises supplied with water abut on the part of the street in which the main is laid, and the service pipe enters those premises otherwise than Question 19 through the outer wall of a building abutting on the street and has a stopcock placed in those premises The hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan, to ask the as near to the boundary of that street as is reasonably Chairman of the Financial Supervision Commission: practicable, so much of the service pipe as lies between the main and the stopcock; • What was the aggregate number and value of Isle of Man authorised and restricted collective investment (b) in any other case where the main is laid in a street, schemes as at - so much of the service pipe as lies between the main and the boundary of the part of the street in which (a) 30th September 1994; and the main is laid, and includes the ferrule at the junction of the service pipe with the main, and (b) 30th September 1995? also -

Answer (i) where the communication pipe ends at a stopcock; and As at 30th September 1994 there were 14 operational authorised collective investment schemes with a total value (ii) any stopcock fitted on the communication pipe of £596,696,000 and 98 operational restricted schemes with between the end of it and the main; a total value of £4,552,400,000. As at 30th September 1995 there were 15 operational (c) in any case where the main is not laid in a street, so authorised collective investment schemes with a total value much of the service pipe (if any) as is laid in any of £696,917,000 and 84 operational restricted schemes with street lying between the main and the premises a total value of £3,370,279,000. supplied with water;'.

Airport Director — Salary — Question by Mr Cannan for Written Answer Collective Investment Schemes — Number and Value — Question by Mr Rodan for Written Answer Water Supply Pipes — Repair and Maintenance — Question by Mr Rodan for Written Answer T402 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

The service pipe is the pipe that is connected to the gone in response and expressed their views on Manx Radio. water main for supplying water from that main to any The place for debate of these issues is on the floor of the • premises. The whole length of the pipe from its connection Court and, hon. members, I ask you to remember that as at the water main to the premises is divided into two we approach this particular resolution. sections, namely the communication pipe and the supply Now then, hon. members, two hon. members spoke to pipe. this resolution. They were the hon. Mr Speaker and the The authority is responsible for the repair and hon. Mr Downie and I have to ask now if any other member maintenance of the communication pipe which is from the wishes to speak to the motion at this stage. Hon. member ferrule on the main to the stopcock. The stopcock is for Rushen, you indicated to me, sir, that you wish to at generally, but not always, located in the footpath. this stage. The authority is not responsible for the repair and maintenance of the supply pipe which is from the stopcock Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President. I heed what you to the premises. That is the responsibility of the owner of say about talking to the press and I accept the concerns in the premises. the way you expressed them, sir. I would just say that it is There are some locations where the supply pipe is laid also, as I see it, part of my responsibility certainly not to in a highway and the Water Authority, because it has the usurp the position of Tynwald in any way but to make sure necessary powers to dig up the road, shall carry out any that the issues we are considering are broadly expressed repairs to that supply pipe. It also has the powers to be to the people of the Isle of Man and it is getting the right able to recover any costs in doing the work from the owner balance between those two situations and all I would say, of the premises. sir, is that I accept the concerns that you have expressed and if I was guilty, then I apologise for it. Part (2) The President: Hon. members, I would merely • The Water Authority considers that the Water Act 1991 reiterate: there is no alternative forum. There could be after adequately serves the interests of customers where their the matter has been discussed in this chamber. No problem supply pipes are laid in the highway provided they are laid there. Proceed, sir. Your apology is accepted. at the correct depth. Supply pipes are generally laid at a depth of one metre Mr Walker: Thank you. Mr President, this matter has from the ground surface and at this depth the loads imposed been going on for some time, as you indicated. At the by the wheels of vehicular traffic should be well dispersed. October sitting there were a number of questions about The bed and surround to the supply pipe should offer transport and transport problems within Douglas and I sufficient protection such that it is not damaged and is also responded to some of that criticism, some of those afforded good protection against frost. questions, by volunteering a report which I had thought However, there may be some customers whose supply was realistic to suggest would be in this hon. Court at this pipes, because they were laid many years ago, were not sitting in January. The department in fact responded to my provided with adequate bed and surround material and request for that report. In retrospect I have to accept that it damage may be occurring which is causing interruptions was a very tight time schedule and if we are realistic they to supply or poor pressure. In these cases the Water probably had six weeks before we ran into Christmas and Authority is quite prepared, at the cost of the customer, to the Christmas break and so on in which to produce the relay the supply pipe. report. Also at that October sitting Mr Speaker had a resolution down which is the one we are talking about in this particular resolution and that was adjourned again to coincide with PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE OF • the reception by this Court of a transport strategy for JOAN WATTERSON — DEBATE RESUMED — Douglas and by implication, I suppose, for some of the MOTION AMENDED AND ADJOURNED other towns and places on the Island that are experiencing a problem, and that point was made by a number of The President: Now, hon. members, we turn to item 3 contributors during the debate. on the agenda paper. This motion was moved at the October There was also a suggestion made that any document sitting and the debate was then adjourned for three months. ought to be given some time for consultation by those who Now, before calling on any hon. member to speak I have are interested and by this hon. Court before getting into a to express to you a matter which is causing me quite a refined and final situation. degree of concern and that is the growing tendency on the When the Council of Ministers received the documents part of members and officials to race up to Manx Radio from the Department of Transport prior to Christmas it and debate the issues before they are brought to the floor was clear to us that they were not in a form which would of this Court. (Members: Hear, hear.) It is an unsatisfactory be acceptable to this Court, they needed to be referred back position, an intolerable position and from now on I am to the department for further refinement, and at that stage going to take action in respect of it if it is to go on recurring. we suggested that in fact they should become a consultative It has happened in the case of this resolution where we document, a formal consultative document, on which were promised a report for the Court to consider. It has members and interested persons should be able to put their been considered already on Manx Radio. Members have comments. Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T403

The refined document from the department was It is obvious from reading this report, and this is not the • received, I think, just about a week ago with obviously no time to do it, but if you go through it the only part that I time for formal consultation and so I am suggesting, Mr can personally agree with is what Tynwald already agreed Speaker, that perhaps the most practical way to deal with with which is that Shaw's Brow car park is a necessity of the suggestion that this hon. Court now faces is a further the highest priority. But the idea on the first page of this amendment which does not seek just to adjourn this report that we should sit here today and discuss as a first particular debate, it seeks that a new resolution should be item of 1(a) that Douglas 2000 once again be brought into placed on the agenda on the May Tynwald which will allow the format to do the job of the department and Douglas a report which will be properly considered by the Corporation who are elected by the people of the town to department after allowing for this consultation process to carry out the responsibilities of the town is incorrect. be made, allow that to be put in front of Tynwald and also I will second the adjournment again, apologise to Mrs allow this petition of Joan Watterson and others to be Watterson and all the people involved in this original considered properly against the background of a report on petition but say if you have a right to have your petition the transport strategy for Douglas, and I have circulated properly addressed, to have it properly addressed we need an amendment which I think will allow that to happen. So a proper report and certainly the Douglas town strategy I would move: which the Minister for Local Government has indicated on previous occasions to me has to go hand in hand with (1) That the following be inserted at the beginning of this so that we can get some definite defined way that we the motion - are going to resolve the major problems of traffic in the borough of Douglas instantly and the rest of the Island, as "(1) That Tynwald agrees that the Department of the Chief Minister indicated. We have to have a clear policy Transport should, following consultation, and I am in the process of writing a very long and detailed • present a transport strategy for Douglas for letter to the minister in relation to this document to express consideration to the May 1996 sitting of personally my bitterness at what they think is the way ahead Tynwald, and for the problems facing the residents, the motorists who have to use the streets and roads of Douglas and what his (2)" department's idea is and what their ideas are and they will not work if you follow the guidelines in this document. In (2) That part (2) of this motion be adjourned until the five years' time we will still be trying to solve the problems, May 1996 sitting of Tynwald and be included on and just to use a castaway, of Victoria Street. That is all the agenda for that sitting immediately after the item that will occur and I want the minister to take seriously dealing with the transport strategy for Douglas. what we is being said and instead of coming back with a long conduit of excuses, reasons and dialogue, to actually It seems to me that if we follow that process we should get his officers motivated to stop building the roundabouts be in a position to properly debate this rather irritating subject of transport within the Island and particularly the which may be necessary but are not a priority and address problems that are facing those people who live in Douglas. the problems of the borough of Douglas where 24,000 people reside, and the position of these people in the area Mr Delaney: Mr President - of West Douglas only indicates a small proportion of the discontent felt by the rest of the people in all of Douglas at The President: Before moving rom the amendment, if what is happening to their town and the problems they the hon. member would just give me a moment please, as have to face. I second the adjournment motion and hope I see it the first stage is the stage of adjournment of the that by May we have some definite plan. motion before the Court. That is the first issue, I think, to • Mr Bell: Mr President, I do not intend to say very much resolve at this stage. I hope the Court agrees on that. The situation is, hon. members, that we are actually discussing on this issue and, having been off the Island until very a petition for the redress of a grievance and it is that petition recently, I have not had the opportunity yet to read the which is now being sought to have adjourned for a further whole of the document, but listening and agreeing in fact period of time. So we have to resolve that one. So we have with what the Chief Minister has had to say, that when this an adjournment motion proposed by the Chief Minister issue was first debated in October a three-month deadline and if there is a seconder I will be quite pleased to accept. was given for the report of the policy of the department towards developing a strategy for transport in Douglas Mr Delaney: Yes, Mr President, I rise for that very which should come back to this Court in January, a three- purpose and I am delighted. I might disagree on a lot of month timetable, there is no question, as the Chief Minister things but having had an opportunity to read the report I said, that that was a very tight timetable except from the am prepared to second the adjournment and I am sure point of view that one assumes that the department, prior Douglas members, some of them at least, will share my to that date, actually had a policy that it was working to in concerns about what is contained in this so-called report the first place because if it had, three months would not that we were asked for. The Chief Minister has been honest have been any problem at all to put this paper together and in telling us that he cannot be happy with it. The members we would have had it in front of us today. certainly cannot be happy with it. It does not go any way Now, I have to say, having ploughed through my papers towards what we expected to occur. late last night, as I say, having got back on the Island, • Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned T404 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 finding the document I was astonished to find in front of record today my support for the comments that were made me was not a report on the policy of the department, it was by Mr President. In having given a great deal of my own • simply a consultative document. Now, that was not what personal time to progress the traffic matters in Douglas by we were asking for whatsoever, it is the policy of the taking work home from the department, attending meetings department we have been trying to find out, and the obvious in the evening with the Department of Transport, I was question which springs to mind is if we are now faced somewhat disappointed that I had not even been given a with this consultative document which is going to delay copy of the report prior to its announcement on Manx Radio matters further, if we support the amendment, until May, and its contents being discussed, nor was I asked at any what has been the basis of policy for the last number of interim period for any sort of comment about the progress years and certainly over the last couple of years when quite that was made thus far. major policy decisions on the transport situation in Douglas Setting that aside, I would just like to say how have been made? disappointed I am in the way that the matter has been Now, many members in this hon. Court, not only handled to date. The report as far as I am concerned is Douglas members, have been convinced for some time really to buy time. I honestly feel that progress is not being that policy in this department is made on the hoof and it made with regard to this particular issue. I am disappointed seems to me that this amendment together with the to find out that to date there has been no consultation with document which has been issued simply confirms what the Treasury and after all what is required in Douglas, I most of us have been thinking for the last certainly 12, 18 feel, and in the the rest of the Island to a certain extent is months. Now, if that is the case, I am seriously alarmed at some major capital investment in car parking and the long- this vacuum which clearly has existed in the Transport term traffic management, and everybody who understands Department not only presumably in relation to the politics in the Isle of Man knows that you are not going to development of a traffic policy for Douglas but presumably get anything moving without Treasury concurrence and that also extends to other parts of the Isle of Man. some money being put in. So as far as I am concerned • Now, I can see we will have no option but to support what we are seeing today is another method of dragging the amendment which has been moved by the Chief the issue out. Minister and I suppose I will have to go along with that, As far as I am concerned when we get to May and then but I do wish to simply emphasise my concern that I believe into June this whole issue of car parking and traffic this hon. Court has been seriously misled over the last 12 management in Douglas is going to become a general months into believing that there is in fact a policy for the election issue and my colleagues who represent Douglas development of traffic management in Douglas when in will have to face this on the doorsteps and I feel by that reality nothing of the sort has existed and they are now time that we will still be in the same position as we are at cobbling together, under pressure from this hon. Court, the moment without any sort of clear direction or proper some form of documentation which will take them a stage policy. further and get them off the hook in the short term, but this I honestly feel, hon. members, action is needed and I is not the way that we should be developing a policy think that it is only a matter of months ago that some of towards a very, very major problem facing the Isle of Man the main comments made in this hon. Court by other at this date. speakers were that there was a problem with the Chief Minister's policy document because the issues with regard Dr Mann: Mr President, I will support the adjournment to traffic and traffic management and policy of the but to say that it is an unhappy and irritating situation is Department of Transport were not being addressed and putting it mildly. I can quite see that the Chief Minister this was probably the root cause of the swing away from finds the situation irritating. I think we all find the situation supporting the Chief Minister's policy document. If the irritating and in particular I would have thought the people message did not get home then I sincerely hope it starts to who submitted the original petition for redress would feel get home now because people are absolutely sick to death • plenty of irritation. The whole procedure seems to have with the traffic management and the parking problems in been turned upside down by the way in which we are Douglas. carrying on. I will reluctantly be supporting the amendment today If this had been put to a committee in the first place because I have no option but I honestly feel that some of considerable progress would have been made. We were these people feel terribly let down by the department and assured that that progress was there and when it comes to indeed now by the Court, and just to inform members that it that progress has not matched the promises that have things are getting no better out in the streets of Douglas, in been made. We have no alternative at this stage, I think, fact on a daily basis they are getting significantly worse. but to adjourn and let this particular issue take its course, but I would say that we must be very careful in avoiding a The Speaker: Mr President, could I preface my remarks repetition of this sort of situation in the future. by saying that I certainly have spoken to Manx Radio within the last four or five days, as many members may be Mr Downie: Mr President, I would like to speak on the aware. I certainly did not do it, nor have I ever spoken to adjournment motion. I should mention at this stage that Manx Radio or any other organ, with a view to try to on behalf of the Minister for Local Government and the preempt the right of this Court, in fact quite the reverse, I Environment I attended the meetings and represented that have always looked upon it as my duty to defend the right particular department and I just really wanted to put on of this Court, and I just want to make that point. And I was Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T405

not aware that I was in conflict with any standing orders that will exist in 10 years' time. There is no point in • or indeed with any particular issues that may be involved, preparing a strategy for now that addresses today's but if that is the case I will of course apologise. problems if those that are likely to exist in the future are Now, if I could move on, we now have, as has been not also addressed. explained, an amendment to the original motion which was in my name, the terms of which have been referred to, Mr Kermode: We are going to build another • which seeks essentially to allow a period of consultation roundabout. — to elapse to presumably allow individuals and organisations to react to the consultative document, the terms of which The Speaker: Having identified the problem, and that presumably have been agreed to not only by the is what I have sought to give details of now, the second Department of Transport but by the other government area that needs to be tackled is the objectives that need to departments named on the front cover and also by JMP be attained to overcome these problems, that is the second Consultants because the report is in the name of all those problem, and thirdly, the means then whereby these organisations. objectives are going to be met need to be set out in some What I have to consider is whether or not I should detail, and none of all this is done by this document. support the proposed amendment. Will it be in the interests You also need a structure to tackle the problems that I of the residents of Douglas in general and in particular of have outlined. Which department is to have responsibility those who live in or near Hawarden Avenue? Is the for the creation and implementation of policy? Now, the document reasonably precise in its terms or is it a list of answer, you may think, is obvious, but it needs to be set principles which the Department of Transport presently down. And which advisory services should be made supports but which need examination and amplification available to it? Secondly, what consultative process should before being implemented? And I would have to say that the department adopt both in terms of other government • it is that latter situation which I think is the position. departments and the public interest, and thirdly, how should The arguments for a reasonable period of consultation the department account for its actions to Tynwald and include the fact that the consultative document, as has been which of its actions should be subject to the approval of mentioned by one or two previous speakers, is not an Tynwald? Let me give you a quick example. There is talk impressive transport strategy which sets out the way about main roads, there is talk about outer ring roads, there forward in as positive a manner as it should; secondly, is talk about residential roads. Who determines what those that apart from the government departments that I have roads are? Does Tynwald approve them? And because a listed there has been no public input into its content since road is classified as one of those classifications, what does it was distributed a few days ago; and, thirdly, until an that mean? Does anyone know? overall transport strategy has been approved for Douglas it is difficult to see how the particular needs and concerns Mrs Hannan: A point of order, Mr President. of the residents of Hawarden Avenue or any other district within Douglas can be properly tackled. So there has to be The President: It means your time is up, Mr Speaker. as step number one an overall transport strategy, and if I could pick up the point made by the hon. member for The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I am going to Ramsey, if he were to refer to page T133 of the October support the amendment that has been proposed by the Chief debate last year I spelt out in detail the fact that over a Minister. The document is not the one that we should have. five-year period there had been no transport strategy either We need a proper document which, if and when it is prepared or laid before this hon. Court for approval, and produced, can be the subject of further debate and indeed that position is one of the essential points why we are here of the appointment of a further select committee at that today. time. • Now, the lack of consultation which has been mentioned by my colleague for Douglas West I fully accept, and there The President: Does any other hon. member wish to has to be a proper period of consultation, otherwise it is all speak on the adjournment? The hon. member for Onchan. being done in limbo, it is all being done in a theoretical way and we need practical applications. Mr Kaman: Eaghtyrane, all I would like to know is The form of the consultative document could be about this adjournment: as far as this is concerned are we substantially improved if it were to tackle the problem in a to get any sort of time period of when it is going to come straightforward, open and proper way, such as to tackle back or is it going to just... the conflicts that arise, and these are conflicts, between those who reside in the town and who have vehicles which Members: Yes, in May. they wish to park and the needs of those who travel in to town and thirdly the parking needs of those who wish to The President: I am going to put the adjournment go into Douglas for either short or long-term periods. Now, resolution and I will read it to the Court to clarify the those are the essential issues, but they are not mentioned position: 'That part (2) of this motion be adjourned until in the consultative document anywhere. the May 1996 sitting of Tynwald and be included on the Secondly, the three problem areas that I have sought to agenda for that sitting immediately after the item dealing address need to be addressed in terms of a solution as to with the transport strategy for Douglas.' That is the the problem that exists now and as to the likely situation adjournment resolution. Will those in favour of that • Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned T406 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. being put off to May and my concern is, as a member who The ayes have it. That resolution is carried. I now turn has fought long and hard in this department, that part of • back to the first part of the resolution tabled by the Chief the problem has to be a better public transport service and Minister and I would ask the Chief Minister if he wishes a free one. I am concerned, with this being dragged on and to elaborate any further on the first part or not. dragged on, that the issue that I would like to see addressed

will once again have to wait until this issue has been • Mr Walker: Could I just say, sir, dealing with this way addressed again and I am just concerned, like the hon. round, I am very happy for the report to go before the May member for North Douglas who talks about this issue being Tynwald, but is it possible, sir, for the adjourned debate dragged on and no real decision being made, that I hope somehow to come in after that report has been presented too that it can come back earlier because the likes of myself to Tynwald which will allow those members who spoke if I put a resolution down next month again for this to be on the debate which has just been adjourned to make their investigated the excuse then will be, 'Oh well, we are comments as regards the petition when they are considering looking at this issue again and we cannot make a decision the report? on this issue till next May', and it does concern me that it does seem that this Court is the highest Court in the land The President: Naturally the chair, in presenting the and sometimes I am starting to get the impression 'Well, it agenda, will take note of the Court's wishes in this matter, does not really matter, folks, whether somebody has an so that there will be no problem in that respect. issue here: it can be put off, it does not matter' and it does concern me. Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President. Mr North: Mr President, I think I had better rise and The President: Now, we have the amendment part (1) first of all assure this hon. Court that - set out on the paper circulated in the name of the Chief • Minister. Does any hon. member wish to speak to that part Mr Cretney: Apologise. (1)? Mr North: I do not think 'apologise' is the right word, Mr Crowe: Mr President, I share the concerns of the but to assure this hon. Court and particularly the hon. other Douglas members that have spoken on almost the member for North Douglas that I am not treating this matter trivialisation of this very serious problem and in October lightly. In fact some of the comments that I have heard we were given to understand that we would be given a report for debate three months from the October sitting here this morning do disturb me and concern me and certainly my department will go back and consider exactly and what has happened now is we get a consultative document, we do not know who is to be consulted, what what some members have said here this morning, 'exactly' time they are to be consulted and we are being asked to being the word, because I find it very confusing. I have to postpone this for a further four months and after that we say that this particular report could just as easily have had do not know the result of that and how long this would on the top instead of 'consultative document' the word take to implement. It is almost as though we have the `report' and in fact the consultation that has taken place minister acting like Nero fiddling while Rome burns - over the last three to four years with not only Douglas Corporation on a regular basis, the Chamber of Commerce, Members: Hear, hear. the police, the fire - everybody has been consulted over those years and there are records of the meetings with that Mr Cretney: A vote of no confidence. now and there have been public exhibitions where the comments from the public have been noted. Mr Delaney: The middle of a roundabout! So I can only say that I take on board all that has been • said here this morning and I am disturbed that members Mr Crowe: - and I think we have to ask and I would do not feel that what was produced is of interest and ask the Minister for Transport at this time if he can treat comment and I will come back certainly as proposed by this very seriously, very urgently, and bring this back to this Court with a document which will hopefully include Tynwald if possible before the May sitting, if the April some of the points that have been made by hon. members. sitting it could be done, so that we have an opportunity to debate this, this very serious issue that concerns not only Mr Cretney: I would just like to move an amendment Douglas members but the whole of the Island because the if I could, Mr President. The hon. member for North commuters are coming into town with parking problems, Douglas has tried to be nice with the minister. The hon. and that we have a defined traffic management strategy member has indicated perhaps the minister would like to that is good for now and for the future. Thank you. come back earlier. The minister has chosen to say that he will come back at the May 1996 sitting. I would like to The President: Are there any further observations? The test the Court. I would like to put down an amendment hon. member for Onchan. that we put 'April 1996' to focus minds, to get on with the job and do something about this. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, now that I have got the information in front of me my concern is the fact that it is Mr Duggan: I would second that, Mr President. Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T407

The President: The learned Clerk will come and take Mr Brown: Mr President, it is a matter for members • your amendment and put it in the correct form, sir, because what time scale they put on it, as we know. I would just I am not accepting an amendment to the amendment. The make the point that if we say May, realistically even that hon. Mr Speaker. is going to be a reasonably tight time scale, following what the hon. member has said. If we in fact move it to April, in The Speaker: Mr President, I would like to talk about reality the actual resolution has to be with the Clerk of the time scale within which the proposal needs to be Tynwald by 4th March. If there are any financial addressed. If there is going to be proper consultation to implications it actually would have to be with him by 9th which the public of Douglas and the Island can react, then February and therefore you are actually going to deprive there has to be a reasonable period of time elapsed. Now, I those who may want to have an input, whether or not the can understand the remarks about trying to get it moved report is good or bad or indifferent or whatever may be back to April, but it may not be practical. If I could just felt by individuals or by members, it would mean, outline the position as I see it. As I would understand it if realistically, you would have less than I think it is about you are going to allow organisations, the Hawarden Avenue three weeks to actually put a view in if you were to move Residents Association, any other organisation, individuals, it forward or it is potentially that close. I believe that if whatever, to make a contribution, a period of, say, four or you are going to go out to consultation it is not unusual to five weeks is not unreasonable for them to get their act give eight or 12 weeks for that consultation and in fact by together and to put in a submission. That is not going to May, giving time for people to put a view in, unreasonable. Secondly, then if you are going to get a giving time for the department to consider those views, proper reaction to the submissions that have been made in then to formulate its report back to this hon. Court, in fact written form it seems to me that the department should May is going to be a relatively tight time scale. encourage those who have submitted written evidence to The other point I would just say is I think we all • attend and give verbal evidence on the content of their understand the importance of the issue of parking and written submissions. Thirdly, the department then needs a traffic management in Douglas and we are also very reasonable amount of time to go away and to collate and conscious of the criticism every time the department widens produce a report having adduced all the information that it a road or puts another roundabout down or does whatever, has had both in written and verbal form, and then fourthly, but more importantly what we should be very conscious there is a need for that report to be in the public domain of is the implications both to the infrastructure and layout for a period of at least two or three weeks before we debate of the town in Douglas and in fact, as important, the cost it in terms of this hon. Court. to the taxpayers because we are potentially talking about Now, this all takes time and I think in the circumstances millions and millions of pounds. that I have attempted to outline, if you think that this has Now, I do not think anybody disagrees that there has to got to be as public a procedure as is reasonably possible, be a way to identify how we are going to deal with this that May is probably the right time for this to be debated. problem in the short, medium and long term. We have got It does take time and I think that the issue that has been a car park that is going to be opened soon which suggested in terms of the consultative process will government has built with 350 spaces, so that is one car necessarily take three or maybe four months. park that is there. There has been additional parking put down by the harbour side. There are still problems and Mr Corrin: Mr President, I have my doubts as to there is more multi-storey to be built, and I would just whether or not this mission can be accomplished at all make the point: I do not think it is all the fault of Tynwald before the general election, (Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear.) if or the department involved. This is a problem that has been the democratic system is to be followed, as indeed laid out going on for many, many years and I would suggest the • by the hon. Mr Speaker, and it is supposed to be the ultimate past government and local government in the town of plan for Douglas for how many years to come and we are Douglas have failed to provide a car parking infrastructure saying now that it is not available and have one ready for that is capable to cope with the town of Douglas and now May, and bearing in mind the experience that we had in we have a problem and I just think you need to give it a bit the Department of Agriculture of having an inquiry of time and I do believe to move it forward to April will bounced on us in July and saying, 'Come back in October', actually make the situation worse not better, and it may bearing in mind you have got to have it on the Tynwald then still go off to a select committee, that is a matter for agenda in the office a month now, nigh on a month, yes, this Court, but I do think now you have this report please before the sitting of Tynwald, it is an impossible mission. give the people who may want to have an input a reasonable I think we should accept that this task is not now possible time to have that input or they will be very critical that we • before this side of the election and anyway even if it was tried to gazump them and just get on with it anyway. can we really say that we would want to enter into commitments of millions and millions of pounds for the Mr Delaney: Mr President, I will not speak again on future with no more than, say, two months of the present this subject, but I want to remind the last speaker that it session to run? I think the reality of the situation is that we was his decision to defer off the long-stay car park that have missed the boat and we may as well admit it, but of should have been commenced as soon as possible to solve course in the meantime certain work can go on to progress the problems of the long-stay parking problems of it. Douglas - • Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned T408 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 Mr Brown: Because your local authority shirked again. Mr Cretney: It has been seconded. • Mr Delaney: - and saying now that this decision is Mr Duggan: I have seconded it, sir. somehow the responsibility of past governments is right, but that does not solve our problem. We have a Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, quite frankly I am quite responsibility, even if we had these problems, to address alarmed by the tenor of the debate today. There is a problem the problems of the town and the traffic as soon as possible, of traffic in Douglas. It is a problem, I would suggest, in and if I may take up the whip of the Speaker of the House many parts of the Island, not just Douglas. There is a of Keys, look at it in three ways. Forget about all this problem of parking, not just in Douglas, but it seems to be nonsense about bridges over the harbour, immediate that the members of Douglas are objecting to the success problems, interim problems and the long-term problems of Douglas, are objecting because people are coming into and come back, forget about magic pie-in-the-sky ideas, Douglas to work and to be commercially active and - attack the problems we know are there now, which includes the oncoming problem caused by Marks & Spencer's, 380 Mr Cretney: Without adequate parking provision. cars coming into Victoria Street - Mr Hannan: - and making Douglas a success, their Mr Brown: What about Lord Street? area: people are able to work here, to move into Douglas. I would suggest to this hon. Court we have got this Mr Delaney: - which there is no policy for, go to the report, whatever you want to call it. We have this report. next situation which is the car parking provided in planned Nobody will be satisfied, nobody. I listened to the Speaker areas by Douglas Corporation, which you could-virtually this morning on the radio. He said it did not fulfil what the commence within four months. The plans are there, we mover of the petition was concerned about and when asked can get on with them, and then the long-time stay can be for a response to what was being suggested in its place he addressed by the department on this JMP company we have • said he could not possibly comment on that because that paid over £200,000 to, at some future date. But it is the then removes the problem to another area, and I think we immediate problems identified by the member for North have to accept that traffic is moving. It is moving through Douglas and the ones identified by the Speaker of the different places at different times. We have heard about residents and the traffic of Douglas that have to be the traffic movements for incineration. We have have heard addressed and I would suggest looking at it in that light maybe May might be too soon, but somebody had better the people in Douglas objecting to incineration, especially do something rather quick before the whole town comes the members. Now they are objecting to commercial to a standstill. advantages that there are in working and living and operating and being successful in Douglas. There is not an Mr Brown: It was your corporation who shirked their answer to it. responsibilities. I would suggest that, yes, bring the report back after consultation, but the debate will be exactly the same and The President: Hon. members, if the hon. member will members will be still shouting that this is an issue for the resume her seat for a moment, I am getting a little perplexed general election, which it will be, and members will be re- with the way this debate is going. (Mr Kermode: Hear, elected or not as the case may be and they will still not hear.) We started off with a petition for consideration. We solve the problem of movement of traffic. had it amended and adjourned. The situation now is we have a further adjournment resolution passed. The Mr Groves: Mr President, I support the strategy report consideration of that petition is now adjourned. Right. coming back in May for many of the reasons that hon. Riding on the back of the adjournment is the other element members have outlined and indeed the minister has accepted in terms of comments which hon. members are • of the Chief Minister's amendment and that Tynwald agrees that the Department of Transport should, following making that he wishes his department to reconsider or consultation, present a transport strategy for Douglas for consider upon, but there is another reason why I would consideration in May, to this Court. Now, hon. members, support May and that is that in the report I believe a it is either a question do you want them to present that statement from the police is made that very shortly in the strategy document in May or do you want them to present future we can expect everyday traffic on this Island to it at all? We have an amendment from the hon. member, equate to the sort of traffic congestion that we currently not yet seconded, it should be April. experience during TT fortnight. Now, that statement asks that fundamental questions be asked about the way we are Mr Cretney: It was seconded. allowing the ownership of vehicles and the way traffic is handled and managed to take place here and demands some The President: But really, do we have to debate the fairly fundamental answers to that question, and for that whole issue (Mr Kermode: Hear, hear.) other than whether alone, I think, May is a much better date to pick to get we want a strategy document? I feel we are getting a little answers to that fundamental issue than April, given the bit lost on this particular issue (Members: Hear, hear.) remarks made by the hon. member for Castletown about and if we can get back to basics: do you want a strategy the time frame that we are normally faced with. But I would document in May or not at all or indeed in April if it is like to mark that down as a fundamental issue we should seconded? also be considering in this hon. Court and the government

Petition for Redress of Grievance of Joan Watterson — Debate Resumed — Motion Amended and Adjourned • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T409

should be considering. We cannot just go on and on and Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. May I thank you, • on without looking at the causes. sir, for giving permission for me to make a statement to update hon. members on the progress of a resolution passed The President: Is the Court prepare to vote, hon. at last year's July sitting of this Court. At the July sitting it members? Well, really, hon. members, we have two was resolved that, and I quote, 'the Council of Ministers amendments before us. The first is in the name of the Chief prepare a co-ordinated and equitable scheme for the 4 Minister, which has been circulated to you. The second is connection to the mains water system of properties not at in the name of the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr present so connected, and report by the January 1996 Cretney: sitting'. The Council of Ministers agreed that the work to prepare a scheme be led by my department in conjunction Before 'That' insert - with the Department of Local Government and the Environment and the Isle of Man Water Authority and it is `(1) That the Department of Transport, after because of this that I am reporting to hon. members today. consultation, present a report on transport Considerable effort has been applied to the development strategy for Douglas to the April 1996 sitting'. of a scheme by the officers of all three, as required by Tynwald, but at this stage further work requires to be The difference between the two is that Mr Cretney's carried out and I regret that it has not been possible to amendment seeks to have April as the date for consideration finalise this matter in time for the January sitting. I am as opposed to May in the Chief Minister's amendment. I very conscious that this is a matter of importance to many am going to put Mr Cretney's amendment to the Court members and can assure the Court that I intend to present first. Will those in favour of Mr Cretney's amendment a full report for consideration at the February sitting of • please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. this Court. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: The President: Thank you, hon. member.

In the Keys - HARBOUR DUES (MERCHANT VESSELS) (1996) For: Messrs Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Kermode, Downie and Karran - 6 REGULATIONS 1995 —APPROVED

Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, The President: Now, hon. members, we move on to Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Braidwood, Mrs item 5, the Minister for Transport. Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 17 Mr North: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move:

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails in the That the Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1996) House of Keys with 6 votes in favour and 17 against. Regulations 1995 be approved.

In the Council - The Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1996) Regulations 1995 apply primarily to vessels which carry For: None cargo, vehicles or passengers. Harbour dues on fishing vessels, tugs, pleasure craft and houseboats were dealt with • Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs separately in regulations which came into force last April. Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 8 The rates of harbour dues proposed in these new merchant vessels regulations do not affect fishing vessels The President: In the Council, hon. members, the or pleasure craft which are used only for fishing or pleasure amendment fails to carry with no votes being cast in favour purposes. Harbour dues on vehicles and other goods loaded and 8 votes against; the amendment fails. I now turn to the or unloaded at harbour were last increased in April 1992. amendment in the name of the hon. Chief Minister, which Since early 1992 inflation has increased by 11 per cent. is set out on the paper in your possession. Will those in Harbour dues on passengers embarked or disembarked at favour of that amendment please say aye; against, no. The harbour were last increased in April 1993. Since early 1993 ayes have it. The ayes have it. inflation has increased by 7.3 per cent. Details of the proposed rates of harbour dues and comparisons with the existing rates are set out in the RURAL MAINS WATER SUPPLY SCHEME explanatory memorandum which my department has — STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER circulated to members. FOR INDUSTRY Because of the low inflation rates until this last year and the department's desire to assist the economy in The President: Now we will proceed, hon. members general, we did not increase goods dues in 1993 and no to item 4 on the agenda paper and I call on the Minister for harbour dues were increased in 1994. Goods dues and Industry. passenger dues were again not increased in 1995. However,

Rural Mains Water Supply Scheme — Statement by the Minister For Industry • Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1996) Regulations 1995 — Approved T410 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 to maintain the value of revenue and avoid large jumps us as to where this hoped - for new business will come from time to time on account of catching up with inflation, from and as to whether he has discussed this with the • we are increasing the main harbour dues as early as possible Ministry for Tourism? in 1996, but only by around 3V2 per cent for the most part. There are three significant exceptions to that increase Mr Corrin: Mr President, the hon. minister gave a short of approximately 31/2 per cent. First, for day-trippers the explanation and said that the cost of oils will be increased 12p passenger due is not being increased. over three years and that he sees no reason why there should Secondly, also to assist the day trip tourist trade and be I think it was a 23 per cent difference in cost imposed encourage the development of potential new business the on bulk gas as opposed to oil. harbour dues on motorcycles and other very light passenger vehicles, cars, mini-buses and coaches, which in any of Mr North: Twenty-three pence. those cases are conveying only day-trippers, will be reduced. They will be reduced to only half of the standard Mr Corrin: Now, this was a conscious decision of the rates of harbour dues which are normally applicable to Harbour Board, perhaps, yes, I think it would have been those passenger vehicles. the board at that time, in fact to have such a difference Third, it is proposed that goods dues on bulk oils and because it was known at that time that bulk gas, I think petrols should be increased by 41/2 per cent on top of the when it came to be sold was mixed up and inflated by air 3'/2 per cent general increase. This additional 41/2 per cent by, I think, a factor of 9 and it was considered, this is the first stage of a phased annual increase which will importation, and that was a conscious decision to do that. extend over three years. This is intended so that in three Now, could he tell this Court why he is now reversing years' time the goods dues on oils and petrols will be the that situation or is this nothing but an excuse to get an same as on gas. The department feels that there is no extra income on petrols and oils which will be passed on justification to continue with the 23p per tonne difference to the customer? There are many people on this Island who • between goods dues on oils and petrols on the one hand are already feeling the extra cost of motoring, essential and liquid gas on the other. The harbour facilities provided motoring, because certainly many employees on this Island for and used by both kinds of tanker vessel for the discharge who have got to have motor cars have not had the wage of liquid petroleum fuels are now very similar. Therefore rises of recent times to take into account increases like the total increase this year on bulk oils and petrols is this. Passed on they will be, and I wonder as to what his proposed to be marginally over 8 per cent or, put another rationale is for moving now? way, an increase of one eighty-seventh of a penny per litre or about one nineteenth of a penny per gallon. The President: Reply, sir? The income from the new rates of harbour dues is expected to increase revenue by about £83,000 in a full Mr North: Right, Mr President, first of all to answer year. I beg to move the resolution standing in my name. the hon. Member of the Legislative Council, I have no idea why we have 0.518 and I will check up on that and Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and see if that cannot be simplified, and certainly I accept that reserve my remarks. halfpennies have disappeared. The new business that is talked about is not in terms of Mr Luft: May I raise a query on the practical working the tourist business at all. In fact I should mention that out of some of the figures which have been put forward by during the last year there was something like £999 from the hon. mover. I take page 17 where we have (c), tonnage dues on certain vessels, seismic vessels for passengers: a child over age four but under age 16, 0.518. instance, coming in and in fact this was in the previous That, I take it, is 51.8 pence. I do not know of a coin of 0.8 year. This year already the revenue from that business in pence if one child has to be charged, and following that 1995/96 I think is something over £6,000 due to the vessels • we have an adult above it, 1.035, which seems to me to be visiting Douglas harbour under certain conditions. For one pound and threepence halfpenny. The halfpenny coin, instance, for most merchant vessels no tonnage dues have I understand was abolished in 1984. been payable since 1987. However, tonnage dues remain payable on vessels which lay up for more than 14 days Mr Quine: Not down at the Sea Terminal. and on vessels which enter the harbour without embarking or disembarking passengers, and that is where these seismic Mr Luft: The '1.035' occurs on pages 14, 15 and 17. vessels and, hopefully in the next few years, that revenue will increase. So that will be new revenue that will be Mr Crowe: Can I just say when I read the statutory coming in. document it concerned me to begin with that there was no If I could just assure the hon. member for Rushen that • comparative information given on previous costs, and this if I had thought that one nineteenth of a penny increase duly arrived and I must compliment the minister on his would increase the price of petrol on this Island we would very clear explanatory document. not have put this increase. It is purely the levelling off on On page 5 it talks about table H producing a reduction this and I can give him the assurance that that did not come of about 48 per cent on the hoped - for new passenger into the consideration. business. Now, could the Minister for Transport enlighten Originally the differential arose in 1988 when the

Harbour Dues (Merchant Vessels) (1996) Regulations 1995 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T411

tonnage dues on vessels carrying cargoes or passengers take place on the 10th March which was the traditional • was abolished and the income lost from this abolition was date for many, many years. I understand that due to some preserved by increasing the goods dues and to a lesser sort of a slip or possibly the change of minister this is now extent passenger dues and the different sizes and not to take place. frequencies of gas and petrol tanker vessels at that time in I am also somewhat concerned that, despite having this 1988 necessitated a lesser amount of tonnage due being very, very good relationship with the fisheries organisation compounded with goods dues on petrol rather than goods through the sub-committee, there was a rather misleading dues on gas, and that situation has fallen away. column which appeared in today's Isle of Man Examiner I hope that hon. members will accept that this is a which said that all sorts of other people were now going to minimal increase and I beg to move. be consulted as well as the freshwater fisheries sub- committee. I would just like to remind the minister that The President: Hon. members, I will now put the this in the past has been an excellent vehicle, as the sub- resolution standing at item 5 on your agenda paper. Will committee represents something like 80 per cent of anglers those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have on the Isle of Man, and it would be a shame at this stage, it. The ayes have it. having done a tremendous amount of work and getting the agreed date the 10th March and the limits of fish and the amounts of fish people are able to keep, if this could not be implemented because of negotiations prior to the start INLAND FISHERIES (FEES) REGULATIONS of the fishing season. Thank you. 1995 —APPROVED Mr Corrin: Mr President, I would just like to confirm The President: Item 6, the Minister for Agriculture, that there was a rise a couple of years ago I suppose it was Fisheries and Forestry. when I commented to this Court on the cost of fishing and in an effort to get more value for money out of that Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I move: expenditure I did invite the freshwater anglers to come to the department and in fact the referred to sub-committee That the Inland Fisheries (Fees) Regulations 1995 was set up. At that time of course Mr John Ballard, the be approved. freshwater fisheries officer, was appointed and I am aware that they accomplished having some good discussions and The fees for angling licences are set every year. The they came forward with a number of what they termed in increases are modest, rising from 50 pence to £2.50. The their view, and they are the customers, would be opportunities for freshwater fishing here on the Island improvements to freshwater angling and it was arranged compare very favourably both in prices charged for angling that the fisheries officer, Mr Carswell, would have a number licences and in the availabilities of waters to fish. The of suggestions progressed to this Court in time, hopefully, department's policy in rearing and stocking out brown and for approval prior to the beginning of the 1996 fishing rainbow trout is much appreciated by resident and visiting year and that is as it was. Now, what is happening in anglers alike. between? I would like to know too. The full season of 1996 will give 30 weeks' fishing in our rivers and reservoirs. That will work out at about £2.41 The President: Will you reply, minister? per week on a reservoir licence for fishing and 80 pence for a week's river fishing at the amended prices in these Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Mr Downie regulations. The proposed amendments to angling fees are raised the question of the 10th March. The angling season • modest increases on modest prices. Eaghtyrane, I beg to has not started yet and therefore there is the possibility move. that the 10th March may be introduced before the start of the fishing season. Four instead of six fish being kept by Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve anglers is within that area of consideration, and he is my remarks. concerned about the relationship that may have broken down, and I can confirm that the freshwater fisheries sub- Mr Downie: I rise to support the increase in fees, Mr committee will be meeting this evening with the member President, but I would like to bring one matter to the of the department responsible for fisheries. I think that is attention of the minister and I would ask her to give some all the questions that were asked. I beg to move. urgent consideration to the points I raise today. In the past there has been an excellent relationship The President: Hon. members, I will now put the developed with the freshwater fisheries division with a resolution standing at item 6 on the agenda paper. Will group of anglers, who consist of all the main clubs on the those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have Island and associations, and they have formed themselves it. The ayes have it. into the freshwater fisheries sub-committee. I understand The Court will now adjourn, hon. members, and the that negotiations have taken place with all the matters adjournment will be until 2.30. Thank you. appertaining to freshwater fisheries and in particular they were promised that the fishing activities this year would The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m.

• Inland Fisheries (Fees) Regulations 1995 — Approved T412 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

BILLS FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE enable my department to address those areas which are of SIGNATURES OBTAINED immediate concern. A memorandum has been circulated • to hon. members identifying the specialities within this The President: Hon. members, I have to announce that set of initiatives and the numbers to benefit, and I hope in accordance with standing order 160, the Value Added that hon. members will feel that they can give this Tax Bill and the Merchant Shipping Regulation resolution their full support this afternoon. Amendment Bill have been signed by a quorum of both branches. Mrs Christian: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr Corrin: Mr President, I would suggest to the hon. HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS — EXPENDITURE minister that the advice tendered to him and this Court in OF SUM TO REDUCE — MOTION CARRIED the memorandum is misleading. I refer to the second part of paragraph 2, taking from the word 'emphasised' that The President: Turning now to the agenda paper again, waiting lists generally relate to patients awaiting routine we come to item 7 and I call upon the Minister for Health appointments or referrals and do not include all patients and Social Security. assessed medically as being in need of urgent immediate treatment. Mr May: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: I will tell the hon. Court why I believe that is the case. On 29th October 1994 I was contacted and on behalf of a That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to apply from constituent, Mr Law, I wrote the following letter to the the General Revenue during the year ending 31st March minister: 'Dear Minister, Constituent Mr Law. Mr and Mrs 1996 an additional sum not exceeding £150,000 for the Law contacted me, seeking assistance and explanation with regard to Mr Law's hospital consultant's appointment. Mr • purpose of reducing hospital waiting lists. Law has a hip condition and has been referred to Mr Hon. members will be aware that my department has Green's clinic. Mr Law says that he suffers extreme pain on occasions in the past developed a number of initiatives and his condition is deteriorating. To support this statement which are designed to improve the management of waiting I understand that his local doctor has marked his referral lists for hospital specialist appointments. This requirement as urgent. Nevertheless, he has been told from Mr Green's should not in any way be seen as a criticism of the hospital office that he shall have to wait a minimum of six weeks service, but rather is a recognition of the increased demands before he will be examined by Mr Green. Now, in view of being placed upon specialist staff due in part to the much my letter to you on the 12th August 1994, leading into the greater range of treatment provision now available and the same subject, I am beginning to suspect that an resultant high level of patient expectation. unacceptable waiting list time in the service is building The inability of the service to meet this demand up. You may recall that I was involved in sorting out a routinely is not unique to the Island, and many health similar situation approximately five years ago. The waiting authorities have from time to time found it necessary to lists were reduced by arranging for patients to be treated introduce waiting list initiatives in circumstances where in England. May I request your assistance, please, in respect waiting times for appointments have become unacceptably of Mr Law's appointment.' That was the first part - to get long. Such initiatives usually involve either transferring him assessed by the consultant. patients to other specialist centres, which in our case means It was on the 16th November that the minister replied off-Island, or alternatively funding treatments outside of to me saying that he was now in a position to respond to normal working hours, for example in the evenings or at my letter of the 29th October and he said Mr Green, the weekends. consultant orthopaedic surgeon receives referral letters on • In recent years initiatives have been successfully a twice-weekly basis, reviewing each one to determine its developed by my department in a wide range of specialities priority. 'Mr Law was referred by his general practitioner including general surgery, orthopaedics, ophthalmology, on the 14th October 1994 and, as you stated, the referral dermatology and so forth. Recently the department, in was marked urgent. Following that assessment, Mr Green discussion with the Treasury, has agreed a package which, has determined' - this is looking, sorting out what has been subject to the Court's approval this afternoon to the referred to him by the doctors, it is not people he is talking funding, will enable a number of waiting list initiatives to about - 'that an early appointment is necessary', and the be carried out over the period up until the 31st March 1996 minister advised that Mr Law is booked into the clinic on in those specialities where pressure on services, due very Friday, 25th November, and that took place. The outcome often to high levels of emergency treatments, has had a of that referral was that on the 25th November 1994, the detrimental effect on patients awaiting routine confirmation of the need for an immediate hip replacement appointments. It should also not be forgotten that the recent operation was agreed. Regretfully - this is still November well-documented problems in relation to key facilities 1994 - Mr Green's office could give no indication within Noble's Hospital, in particular the operating theatres, whatsoever as to when Mr Law would get attention. He have not been helpful in the terms of service delivery. was in excruciating pain night and day during December The waiting list initiatives proposed, for which a 1994 and early January 1995. I pleaded and pleaded that supplementary revenue vote of £150,000 is sought, will the minister should assemble a number of patients again,

Bills for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained • Hospital Waiting Lists — Expenditure of Sum to Reduce — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T413

as had been done five/six years ago, and send them to report next month is nothing more than a rouse to take the • England to arrest this deteriorating situation and get some heat out of next month's report. The facts speak for relief for these people, but my request fell upon deaf ears. themselves - very regrettable, very unacceptable. May I Now Mr Law could stand the pain no longer and in request the minister to respond to my questions? Would January 1995, just on the year ago now, he contacted he be prepared to refund to Mr Law the £8,279, the cost of Murrayfield Hospital in Cheshire on a private basis. He private treatment, arising from the failure of the minister's • was in there within a week. Regretfully, the cost to Mr department to carry out their statutory duties and an Law to relieve himself of that pain came to £8,279. Now, apology for the maladministration of Mr Green's office the hon. minister is telling us, if one divides up what he is resulting in this untimely letter? I have got all the costs; proposing to have done, that he can get the same done for Mr Law kept all the costs of what he had to pay for the £3,920 through the National Health Service. basic surgery, all the attendants that go with it and of course However, that is not the end of the story and, as the air fares, the costs of his wife staying nearby and so on saying goes, the sting is often in the tail. Last Friday, 12th and so forth. All there is now in that letter is on offer as January 1996, Mr Law received a letter from Noble's Isle free. of Man Hospital, 131/2 months after his 25th November Could the minister tell us, what was the vote on the 1994 examination, and this letter reads as follows: 'Dear 1994-95 under this heading and what was spent and, if the Mr Law, Re joint replacement surgery Manchester. An whole lot was not spent, why was it not assuming that he opportunity has arisen for a number of Manx residents had the money? Could I also ask him, what was his vote currently awaiting joint replacement surgery to receive their for 1995-96? Could the minister tell us that and also, of operations at the Victoria Park Hospital in Manchester. This course, explain, as indeed I tried to explain to my will enable patients to receive their operations in a shorter constituent, as to how he has been treated in that manner, timescale than at Noble's Hospital. It is intended that the bearing in mind that this gentleman was 83 years old then • patients transferred to Manchester will be seen during - clearly he is 85 now - and the excruciating pain where he February and March 1996. Following a review of the was standing there on his left leg, normal, and because of Noble's Hospital waiting list, you have been selected as his ailment, his hip, it had shortened and his right leg was being suitable to travel to Manchester for your operation. hanging there, and every moment of the day he said was If you are willing to travel to Manchester for your pain? I pleaded with the minister to do something about it operation, would you please contact my secretary... as soon at the time, to send a batch of people away. The answer as possible so that appropriate arrangements can be made. was no. Why were the people who have had to wait this Provisional date of your admission in Manchester, should past year, why is there an initiative right now? On that you accept the offer, has been set as 4th March 1996. basis of the waiting list I welcome it because it is going to Patients transferred to Victoria Park Hospital will be give some relief to people, but why did this not happen provided with transport to and from their home to the last year? Why, adding insult to injury now has this hospital and may be accompanied by one relative or friend. constituent received a letter last Friday, 13'/2 after that The accommodation for a relative or friend will be provided interview? at the hospital for the duration of the patient's length of stay. The anticipated length of stay will be 10 to 12 days. I Dr Mann: Mr President, firstly, I think we all ought to hope you will be willing to take up this offer, which will welcome an initiative by this department in this particular provide you with the highest possible care. However, if area and I want to deal specifically with the item before us you have any questions or require any further information, because, of course, the larger question is very complicated please do not hesitate to contact my secretary, who will be and there are no simple, straightforward answers. more than happy to assist. Yours sincerely, A D L Green, I must agree with the last speaker. If one took a cynical p.p. Consultant Orthopaedic Surgeon, dictated but not read' view of this, one would suggest that this has been produced • - I do not know what that means - 'Copy to Dr Moseley.' one month before the promised statement of the current I have to ask the question, just what is going on? Why situation, but I will try and put cynicism aside and look at was an initiative as proposed today not taken last year? what we have before us. Waiting lists were unacceptable this time last year, as I was particularly interested in the minister's breakdown evidenced by Mr Green's refusal to give Mr Law any of how this was to be achieved. From what I gathered from forecast whatsoever as to when he could expect treatment what he said, some of this money would be spent sending and therefore, because of the pain, he was driven to spend some patients away for additional operations elsewhere £8,279 of his own money to seek relief through private and some - and this is where I want to have some treatment. I ask again, and I will keep on asking, what clarification - of the money - and looking down here I happened to the 1994-1995 allocation of monies for this would say a fair amount of it - is going to pay for additional purpose? How many other persons on this Island were use of services that we already possess. forced to go private during this period? Why have we not The other matter that I would ask the minister to explain got the promised detailed report on waiting lists before us is, we have a list of the number of patients who presumably today? If we had, then we could make an informed will benefit from this expenditure; it does not indicate how judgement if the request on the agenda paper is too little that number relates to the total number. Is it, for instance, or too much. We do not have that information. when we are looking at radiology, barium meals and I suspect that the motion today and the promise of a ultrasounds, 312, is that actually going to eliminate the

• Hospital Waiting Lists — Expenditure of Sum to Reduce — Motion Carried T414 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 waiting list, or is it just taking part of the waiting list away? we are considering this motion here today, worthy as the In the other matters similarly we have 400 cases of minor motion may be, and we do not have the courtesy and the • surgery. We have no real idea until next month as to what assistance of having that comparative information. I am proportion of the waiting list that is going to deal with. sure it is available and it really should be before us. I think, But what concerns me more is that, if one reads this at least I would hope, that that statement, when we do get without any background knowledge at all - and there I am it - or perhaps I can even express the hope that perhaps talking about members of the public - it gives the here today the minister can give us the information of what impression that by spending £150,000 one can correct most initiatives have taken place during the time of the present of the worst of the waiting lists. If that was really the case, administration. The minister is aware, of course, that the most people would say, why do you not spend it every first of these was started in 1990 and I would assume that year? Especially the 312 people who are awaiting X-rays, a number of them have been carried out during the interim who for £15,000 could have their X-rays done quickly. I period. So perhaps the minister could at least give us that am sorry to have to ask that question, but that is what information if he has it to hand. ordinary people are going to ask. If we can spend £15,000- Now, the final point that I was going to ask the minister odd to do these X-rays, why do we have to wait for this? to help us with is the position in relation to the operating Are we going to overuse our existing equipment as a result? theatres. Again going back five years, there was a strong Are we running into any dangers of overemploying staff? case being made for their replacement and the capacity, These are just a few of the things I think we must ask, but the throughput, that those theatres were capable of was in no way must we refuse to grant support for this resolution certainly restrained. Now, what is going to be the situation because it is, as the previous speaker has said, going to there? We now have an indication that even if the new give some relief to some people pretty soon, and that is hospital is approved and goes on-stream, it will not be what we are all here to do. All I can say is that perhaps commissioned until, what is it, 2003/2005? I think the next month we can have an opportunity to more fully public are entitled to have a clearer picture in regard to • discuss this very complex issue, because it is not simple how we are going to cope between now and then. Are these like this. This does help people who need help, but there is theatres going to be replaced? Are they going to be a very much wider problem, and I think the previous completely refurbished? What are we going to do during speaker possibly dealt with it - namely, of course, the first that period? It is the theatres which by and large are the delays that occur when a person first seeks advice or bottleneck, so to speak. We should at least be given a picture treatment. Before you come to the delay of dealing with as to what is proposed in relation to those theatres. Under the situation, when you have found the necessary treatment the original estate strategy, of course, they would have been programme, then there is delay in starting it. So in fact it is commissioned and in place by now. So that strategy has not one waiting list, it is two waiting lists, and what appears changed that and I think the minister owes us an to be a length of time waiting to have something done is explanation. Thank you. compounded by the wait you have to find out whether you need it. Wherever this problem arises, it is never simple. Mr Crowe: Mr President, I just rise to congratulate the I do not want to start a debate on this this afternoon. I health minister on his efforts in bringing this money suggest we all support this, but I would like to know what forward. We have a simple request to vote an extra proportion of people who are currently waiting for £150,000 to improve health care, to cut down on waiting treatment this is going to help and, if so, why do we have lists, and we are getting into a long debate on the whys to ask for £150,000 at this particular moment? £150,000 and wherefores, and I think we should be pleased that the in the health service budget is like a spot, it is so small. It health minister has brought this forward and we should does not even amount to a sizeable sum at all. I beg to vote solidly for it. Thank you. support it anyway. • Mr Lowey: I rise to support and, before the Court gets Mr Quine: I think it is most unfortunate that we do not into too much cynicism and pessimism, I think, like the have this statement as to the present position on waiting last speaker, I too would like to say that we should be lists before us. I really cannot understand why it is not welcoming the initiative of the Minister of Health for before us. bringing this forward. I think our memories are very short. We must remember Mr Cannon: It is too long. that early last year the hospital suffered a closure of its own particular operating theatres. This must have a knock- Mr Quine: If this motion has obtained Treasury on effect and I would expect the Department of Health to approval, and clearly it has, that has taken some not be monitoring this situation on a monthly basis, and here inconsiderable time to bring the motion forward and have they are, bringing forward what I would call practical help it put onto the agenda, and therefore I cannot really to those that need it when they need it, and I think we envisage what the obstacle is in providing alongside of should be welcoming it and, as far as I am aware, the that the position statement in relation to the outstanding question I pose to the minister is, is this enough to meet • waiting lists. I am aware that just a few years ago the our requirements? I believe this is about as much as can situation was that this comparative statement was produced be spent in a practical way and I think we ought to be on a monthly basis. So I would ask the minister first and congratulating the minister and the department for this foremost if he can offer some explanation to us as to why initiative. I take this opportunity as someone who has had Hospital Waiting Lists — Expenditure of Sum to Reduce — Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T415

family involvement in the medical services in the last few what the system can cope with. Now, when we produced • months, and I know of the pressures and I have had this paper last year I did point out the increase that had complaints and I have had my areas of disagreement with taken place in admissions over the period, an increase in the health authorities, but I believe this initiative is right operations and so forth. for the proper motives, there is nothing here to say that it During the past year since the issue of this paper, in is being introduced at this particular time, four weeks fact coincident with the issue of this paper - the main theatre before, and I am glad that the hon. member Dr Mann says at Noble's Hospital was closed of necessity and it was if he wanted to be a cynic he could assume that, but just in closed for three months. There was nothing we could do case there is a hint of that around in the Court, I believe about that; it had to be closed. That main theatre is the for the best motives, for the right motives, this resolution only laminar flow theatre that we have at Noble's Hospital. needs our full and wholehearted support because it is being It is the only theatre capable of dealing with orthopaedic introduced for the right motives. surgery. Now, the run-up to the closure of that theatre - I would like to just touch on that a little bit because the hon. The President: Reply, minister? member Mr Corrin has made a number of allegations which I will respond to, and he said he contacted me on 29th Mr May: Thank you, Mr President. Can I firstly start October 1994 on behalf of a constituent, and I well on the paper on the details of the waiting lists and where remember his letter and I well remember 'discussions' that they currently stand to date? Now, these were circulated we had on the subject. one year ago on 30th January 1995 last time. They were circulated together in responding to a question in the House Mr Delaney: Two happy ministers together! (Laughter) of Keys by the then member of the House of Keys, the hon. member for Council, Dr Mann. Now, this paper was Mr Cretney: You used to be too! • compiled for hon. members and it was done in considerable detail. It is a paper which runs to quite many, many pages. Mr May: Now, his constituent was advised by Mr Green Each individual speciality is spelt out in detail exactly what that he would have to wait six weeks, and as a result of Mr has transpired during the previous year, what has been the Corrin's approach I made enquiries and the gentleman that situation in years before that and what is proposed for the Mr Corrin has referred to was subsequently given an future, and all the lists together with that are compiled as appointment to see Mr Green. At that particular time Mr appendices to it, up-to-date lists, and those lists were based Green knew that the theatre was coming up for closure on the figures, the department's end-of-the year figures as and Mr Green, the consultant orthopaedic surgeon, did a at 31st December 1994. tremendous number of operations in a very short period of Now, at that sitting of the House of Keys I, in responding time. I think he did something like 16 hip operations within to the question of the hon. member for Garff, Dr Mann, a period of a month to try and contain the list before the gave an undertaking that I would circulate this paper in theatre closed. this detail on an annual basis. It has not been done before. The hon. member Mr Corrin, in his inimitable way, You have figures on waiting lists before, but you have not suggested that we should send the remainder of the people had an undertaking in the past that hon. members of this waiting for hip and knee replacements away, and it was Court would receive on an annual basis a full update - an explained that to implement an initiative of this nature it is analysis, if you like - of the waiting lists. But we gave that not merely a matter of picking up the 'phone; there is a undertaking and I am quite happy to comply with it, time run, and we expected the theatre to be back in service because I believe these figures are of interest to hon. and ready to pick up the backlog, and at that time, because members, they are of interest to the public and they are of the sterling efforts - and I will repeat that, the sterling • certainly of interest to the department. I stated at that time efforts - of the consultant orthopaedic surgeon to contain the department's commitment to try and reduce _waiting the waiting lists for these sensitive areas, the list had been lists, and indeed over the past few years we have embarked brought down to a manageable figure. However, what on numerous initiatives - sending people away, bringing transpired was that on the theatre's reopening unfortunately in locum support to carry out surgery in the Island - to try a patient was admitted and there was a case of infection and bring down the lists. Where there have been specific within the theatre, and that necessitated its closure again. problems over the years in ophthalmology, in dermatology, Now, there is nothing we can do about that. It is not simply in places like this, in general surgery and in orthopaedic a case, when a theatre has that type of problem, of going surgery, we have gone out and launched initiatives to try round with a bottle of Jay's Fluid and a wire brush; it is a and deal with it. very, very highly sensitive and technical procedure to It is interesting to note that the people who have ensure that that theatre is entirely sterile again. So that in contributed to this debate are people who seem to be doing itself led again to a delay - not one we liked, not one we their darnedest to stop us getting new, improved hospital appreciated but one we had to deal with, we had to put up facilities, but one of the facts of life is that our consultant with and abide with. Then of course we are into the TT specialists are dealing with increased numbers of referrals period, and so it transpired. - increased numbers because of the additional requirements, Now, at the latter part of the year we were looking, and the additional expectations of the public, the additional we are concerned, at a number of areas: orthopaedic surgery number of medical facilities that are available. This puts, is one; general surgery in particular is another. Now I think quite clearly, pressure on the system and there is a limit to I have referred to this on previous occasions - there is a

• Hospital Waiting Lists — Expenditure of Sum to Reduce — Motion Carried T416 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 long outpatient waiting list for general surgery, and hon. inviting him - and we have written; twenty cases have been members saw that in this document that was issued last identified and they have been written to to ask if they would • year, and they will see it in the document that will be sent be willing to go off-Island to have their particular operation to hon. members within a very short period of time. Now, performed. Possibly some of them will not go. If such is a lot of those cases are of a minor nature. When I say minor the case, then we may be in a situation to offer the facility they are not life-threatening; they are a source of to other people. It is plain that the consultant orthopaedic inconvenience to the individual concerned, without a surgeon had no knowledge of Mr Corrin's constituent • shadow of a doubt. So one of the initiatives that we propose having had his operation undertaken on a private basis or to take in furtherance of the resolution that is before hon. he would not have received the letter inviting him to members this afternoon is to introduce initiatives in general participate in this particular initiative. surgery. Now, that initiative will involve bringing into the Mr Corrin wants to know why the initiative was not Island a locum consultant surgeon who will undertake carried out in 1994/95 and I think I have explained that: approximately 400 additional cases of minor surgery within we had a round-the-clock effort by the consultant surgeon an eight-week period between now and the end of March. to bring the orthopaedic waiting list down to a manageable Now, the hon. member has said, 'Well, how much is that level prior to the theatre closure, and then it was closed as a proportion of the list?' It will not wipe the list out, but and unfortunately, for reasons which I have explained, that what it will do is certainly dramatically improve the closure extended into a longer period than we anticipated. situation of the people who are behind those 400 on the Mr Corrin wants to know what was the vote for waiting list, and realistically, at this time of the year - and we have list initiatives, and the hon. Mr Quine said 'What have we had discussions of this in the Treasury and I would like to done in waiting list initiatives?' In 1991-92 the vote of thank the hon. Treasury Minister for his support in coming £157,500; we spent £161,049. In 1992-93 the vote was forward with this initiative and I have to say that the £150,000; we actually spent £130,050. In 1993-94 it was Treasury were both sympathetic and supportive to the £159,000; we spent £125,500. In 1994-95 the vote was £159,000, but we actually only spent £51,000, and the • department's request - following discussions, it had been agreed that the most that we could do between now and reason for this was that we had to meet a shortfall in the the end of March is what is suggested in the paper that has remuneration of the specialists' salaries budget. That was the reason that that was curtailed at that particular time. been circulated to hon. members. Now, it certainly will not clear the waiting lists completely; we will never clear And Mr Corrin can tut away, but if we do not pay people their remuneration then we do not get their services. waiting lists completely, but what we can do is significantly and dramatically improve the waiting lists so that Mr Corrin: And leave people in pain. everybody on them and people who are coming on them stand to benefit. And following on from this initiative - as Mr May: It is quite simple. I think this Island - and I I say, we have to be practical. We are in January now. We have said it before - has cause to be thankful for the quality are looking to deal with a total number of 892 patients in of the consultant surgeon that we have available at Noble's different specialities before the end of March, because we Hospital. It is not an easy job to try and curtail waiting have to spend the money before the end of this financial lists where demand is constant; it is not an easy job for a year - we will then kx)k (and we are in discussion with the consultant surgeon who has somebody booked for an Treasury) as to further initiatives in other areas and other operation on a specific day, at a specific time, to find that specialities that can be taken to further improve the he is called out at 3 o'clock in the morning to deal with a situation. major road traffic accident and subsequently has to cancel It has been suggested that we are coming here and we the operation that has been arranged for the following day; are not giving you the information. The reason for the It is not easy to explain to the individual concerned who information here is quite simple: the paper that you will has hyped themselves up ready for the operation but be given will be the latest up-to-date figures based on the unfortunately, because of a trauma case... But it happens. • end-of-year December figures, as was the case last year This happens on a regular basis, and it is something that and as was the undertaking that I gave to hon. members we have to deal with. last year. That is what you will get. Now, had I hung on Mr Quine wants to know what is the position of the and said 'Let us get the paper finished' - and my officers theatres. The theatres have been refurbished; they are now are working very, very hard to put the detail that hon. operational and working. How are we going to cope? We members I am sure would like to see contained in this paper will cope until the new hospital opens. He says there has - the information, not just statistical but the actual been a plea for theatres, and he is absolutely right in that; information as to what the situation is - then I could not there has been a plea for theatres. There was a plea for have come to this Court until next month's sitting, and theatres and they went and built a pathology lab had that been the case then we could not realistically have (Members: Yes.) that was far, far over and above the achieved as much as we can achieve by coming at this requirements of the time, and the people who pose these month's sitting, and I would hope that hon. members will questions and who are quite eager to sit in the gallery and not only accept and appreciate that fact but will see the snipe ought to remember who took the decisions at those • logic of it as well. times. It is all very well to criticise, but all the problems The hon. member Mr Corrin has referred to his that are faced by the health service today are an constituent and said that he went away of his own volition accumulation of things that have developed over a long and has now received a letter from Noble's Hospital number of years. Hospital Waiting Lists — Expenditure of Sum to Reduce — Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T417

I do not want to curtail this because I do not believe these Representation of the People regulations. If people • there is one member of this hon. Court that is not going to look into them there are certain things that obviously, when support this resolution today. I am, however, disappointed we had the Act, we raised and that we had concerns over that there are some members who will not accept the as far as whether there was enough time allowed for resolution in the spirit in which it is given as a genuine absentee voters, especially from people who live a and sincere effort to try to help those people who are considerable space away from the Isle of Man. But what I becoming increasingly frustrated at the delays caused by am concerned about in particular - and I really think that growing waiting lists. These initiatives will help in a this regulation should either be referred back or voted down number of areas. They will help a large number of people - is, if you accept this as your nomination paper, obviously and they will also help the people who are not being we have lost the battle as far as common sense is concerned, addressed by these initiatives by moving them forward up as we have got to have 20 assentors when you have got the lists, and I hope in the future that we will be able to constituencies of less than 2,000 voters, so you are going announce further and more initiatives of a similar nature to end up with 10 per cent or 12 per cent of your population and hon. members, I can assure you, will have all the actually on somebody's nomination paper if you have detailed information relating to the waiting list situation something in the region of 9 or 10 people. within a very short period of time. I beg to move. Members: Use a calculator! The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 7 on your agenda papers. Will those in Mr Karran: And so you have a situation where I am favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The concerned about that. I think you are wrong (Laughter and ayes have it. interjections) but you get a situation on that point - • Mr Corkill: It is one per cent. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE Mr Karran: Yes, and if you have 10 of them on top of REGULATIONS 1995 —APPROVED that that is 10 per cent. As I say, I went to school... I think, if people would listen sometimes... (Laughter) What I am The President: Item 8, the Chief Minister. concerned about over this is the fact that when you look at page 28 and you look at the nomination paper, you know Mr Walker: Mr President, I beg to move: how if you have got anybody who is blind or anybody who is elderly and you are expecting them to be able to That the Representation of the People Regulations write their name down on this nomination paper, boy, you 1995 be approved. are in for trouble, and I think that this regulation needs to go back, because this alone leaves me with a lot of concern The Representation of the People Act 1995 came into if you are going to try and get 20 assentors on this one operation at the beginning of this month and it gives the form here at the present time, and that is not allowing for Governor in Council power to make regulations provided the fact that we did away with the old form that you had with various matters relating to House of Keys and Board 12 names on but you only had to have eight proper of Education elections. It was decided it would be more signatures. You have a list here of 20 names that you do convenient for the public, prospective candidates and those not have any flexibility with, if I remember rightly, because connected with the running of elections if one set of I think my amendment went down. regulations was made to cover all the matters rather than I think hon. members want to look at this form on page make separate regulations for each, and this is what has 28 and just think, will you be able to get especially your been done. older constituents to be able to write on that form in their • Just to run briefly through the regulations, part 1 deals own handwriting? I think that you are going to find that with definitions and revocations, part 2 deals with the you could have a lot of trouble if you have a very pedantic absent voters and makes no substantial change to the returning officer. You know my feelings. As I said in the existing situation which it replaces, part 3 is new and deals legislation, as far as I am concerned I do not think there is with proxy voting, which has just been introduced by the any need for half of this. I think we create hoops, but I do Act, and part 4 allows candidates to apply for a refund of think that, on this alone, this nomination paper this should the cost of posting manifestos before the election; under be referred back, and I think the hon. mover deserves to the old Act claims had to be submitted only after an election give me some sort of assurance, because I just do not think and this could have caused hardship in certain cases. And that is practical. finally, part 5 sets out the forms and directions for use in There were other points that I was concerned with but elections, many following existing forms but others have that is the major point. That page 28 - you look at that and been changed to take into account the return of the first- think of all the people that you ask to ask for a nomination past-the-post voting and the fact that no deposits are now paper and are you going to fit them all on there and maybe required from the candidates. I beg to move the resolution check that they have spelt it the same way and everything standing in my name. else? I think this regulation leaves a lot to be desired and I just think people should look at it. Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. Mr Cannon: Mr President, it appears from the previous Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am very concerned about speaker that page 28 is a contention. I see nothing difficult • Representation of the People Regulations 1995 — Approved T418 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

about it but I would ask the mover: there is space for 25 specifically guided to being exactly as this page. (Mr assentors as there was previously space for, I think, 12 or Groves: Precisely.) They can use that form of words and • 14 when only eight assentors were required, so that extra the form of words is there but it does not say in any control names could be put on in case one of the names listed had over the dimensions of the form in any regard. That is to be crossed out by the returning officer if it was found to flexible, sir. be incorrect. So instead of having to get a whole new form between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. you had extra names on the The President: Reply, Chief Minister, please? list, which the returning officer then included in the number required. There is nothing wrong in that and I have to say Mr Walker: Yes, Mr President. Can I just thank those to the member for Onchan that there are over 2,000 voters members who have made comments regarding these • in Kirk Michael and 10 per cent of the over 2,000 is over regulations? Perhaps the person who made more than just 200 signatures and I am not required to get over 200, only a general comment about the specifics of the regulations required to get 20. Thank you very much, Mr President. was Mr Rodan, the hon. member for Garff, and I find myself very much in sympathy with the point of view that Mr Karran: If there are ten candidates you do. he expressed. I also adopted the same attitude as he when the Bill came forward for signing. I feel that it is a Mr Gilbey: Mr President, could I say I would agree retrograde step. Nevertheless, it is also my responsibility with the last speaker. I do hope the hon. Chief Minister to present these regulations to this hon. House and I think will give an assurance that he will arrange for there to be I have to accept at this stage anyway that that particular spaces for 25 for the reasons that have been explained. I battle is lost, and I have no doubt at all it will be rehearsed do think that the hon. member for Onchan is right, not in at some stage in the future and members can once again his mathematics but in his argument, and that is that if the debate that one. But as far as I am concerned I have to say form really is going to be this size it is too small. But as I I have the same concern and perhaps sadness in reverting • remember, it was much bigger but of course the trouble is back to this first-past-the-post system of voting. the wording here intimates the forms are like this. So again Nevertheless, that is the situation and that matter was could we have an assurance from the hon. Chief Minister addressed, and very clearly addressed, I think, when the that he will make certain there is a bigger form with space Bill went through the branches. for people to sign and put their names, even if they are old As far as the forms are concerned, I will certainly make or if they are young. enquiries as to the situation with them. I hear my hon. colleague Mr Cringle say that we are not tied to this size Mr Rodan: Mr President, I was not an elected member of a sheet of paper and so on; he may be exactly right, but when this Representation of the People Act was debated I would prefer to give the assurance that I will check up on or passed, and I certainly did not sign the Act when it came those particular matters that have been raised and, if there for signature in Tynwald the other month, on the grounds is a need to come forward with amending regulations, then that it reverted from single transferable vote to first-past- I will be pleased to do that. I will be coming forward - and the-post system. I realise this is not the time nor the place I should have mentioned this earlier on in the debate - with for any debate on the voting system. Suffice it to say that an amending regulation to regulation 3(1)(b) where it says, in my strongly held view, first-past-the-post is an `The absent voters' ballot boxes are to be marked outside undemocratic and unfair system (Members: No.) which the Island at least 10 clear days before the date fixed for other countries have largely abandoned and I could not in the poll' and if members look at form 1 'Application to be all conscience or in principle support regulations stemming treated as an absent voter' it says 'Absent voters' ballot from an Act which imposes such a system on the Isle of papers to be marked elsewhere than in the Isle of Man at Man. least 14 days' clear notice', so there is a typographical error there that I would wish to put right at next month's • Mr Corrin: For better or worse, Mr President, this will sitting, and I would thank the hon. member Mr Karran for be the law. I think the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, drawing my attention to that amount of time that is has a point here, and it may be another practical suggestion, necessary for absent voters. if the mover is prepared to perhaps have some kind of look With those remarks, I once again repeat the assurance at the layout - and perhaps it could be bigger or whatever that I will look again at the comments that have been made - it may be helpful equally if for the assentors in 1, 2 and 3 to see whether it is possible to add more lines in case there there were lines across so that at least then you can have is a mistake made, and to see if it is possible, as my other the electoral number, the surname and address; they then hon. colleague has suggested, to make it easier for people make sense because there is a practical point here of certain to fill in by drawing lines on the form. We will look at people signing that you can get them then going out of those and, if it is necessary to come back with an sync. It is just small practicalities but it is very, very amendment, sir, I will do that. I beg to move. important, and obviously this is the time now to just knock these things into shape. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 8 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour Mr Cringle: Mr President, equally briefly, my please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. understanding is that whilst it does say here that these attached schedules do spell out the forms, they are not A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

Representation of the People Regulations 1995 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T419

• In the Keys - they have been introduced in the adjacent isles. I know that in the case of one covered by a later order there is an For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, North, Walker, Corrin, explanation as to why it was not brought in before, but Cringle, Brown, May, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, there is no explanation about the earlier dates covered in Braidwood, Downie, Groves, Corkill, Gelling and this order, and I just hope that the minister could give us the Speaker - 18 an assurance that he will try and see that we do act with more speed. Against: Mr Rodan, Mrs Hannan and Mr Karran - 3 The President: Reply, sir? The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the House of Keys with 18 votes in favour and 3 against. Mr May: I note the hon. member's comments, Mr President. In relation to giving out the guidance notes at In the Council - the same time as the order, I will see what can be done on that. However, I would say they are prepared separately in For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs the fact that the order is done by the draftsman and put Christian and Mr Delaney - 7 through and the guidance notes are there for members' information on the subject, but I will convey the hon. Against: None member's sentiments to my officers and see what can be done. The other point he makes is noted, but it is not always The President: In the Council, hon. members, 7 votes as simple as it may seem to introduce the orders at the have been cast in favour of the resolution, no votes against; time they are issued in the UK, sir. I declare the resolution carried. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 9 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes (APPLICATION) (NO. 22) ORDER have it. 1995 —APPROVED

The President: Item 9, the Minister for Health and SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION Social Security. (APPLICATION) (NO. 23) ORDER 1995 —APPROVED Mr May: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: The President: Item 10. That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.22) Order 1995 be approved. Mr May: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

This order applies to the Island eight items of subsidiary That the Social Security Legislation (Application) legislation of Parliament which relate to the administration (No. 23) Order 1995 be approved. of social security benefits. The details of these items have been circulated to hon. members and I am sure they will This order applies to the Island two items of subsidiary have noted that they all deal with amending legislation legislation relating to national insurance contributions and already in force on the Island concerned with benefits to the calculation of state pensions. Again, the changes included in the reciprocal agreement. Mr President, I beg have been applied administratively to the extent that is to move item 9. necessary, and details of the provisions are in the memorandum circulated to hon. members, sir. I beg to Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. move item 10.

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, just two points, really, of Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. administration. One, I wonder if it would be possible, when departments are kind enough to send out guidance notes The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution and explanatory notes, for them to come at the same time standing at item 10 on the agenda paper. Will those in as we receive the orders? It would make it a great deal favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The easier to get the orders and then these come so much later. ayes have it. The other point I have raised on a previous occasion is that it does seem that some of these UK regulations that we are bringing in go right back to 1991 and 1992, 1993, 1994, which does suggest, at least, that they have been SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION somehow forgotten. I would hope that the department could (APPLICATION) (NO. 24) ORDER try in the future to bring them in more speedily. We have 1995 —APPROVED got to bring them in at some time or other, but it does seem to me much more efficient to bring them in speedily after The President: Item 11.

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 22) Order 1995 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 23) Order 1995 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 1995 — Approved T420 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Mr May: Mr President, I beg to move: LOCAL ELECTIONS (FEES) ORDER 1996 —APPROVED That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 1995 be approved. The President: Item 14, now. I call on the minister.

Item 11 provides for the application of those sections Mr Groves: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: of the Social Security Act previously not applied to the Island relating to the equal treatment of men and women That the Local Elections (Fees) Order 1996 be in occupational social security schemes with regard to approved. maternity and family leave provisions. Again, a detailed explanation has been circulated and I beg to move, Mr The main reason for this measure is to update the rates President. of fees and expenses set by the 1989 order in terms of payment made to officials for the conducting of local Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. elections. There are no resource implications as all payments are defrayed out the district fund of the local The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution authorities. For that reason local authorities were consulted standing at item 11 on the agenda paper. Will those in upon this after the introduction of the 1994 order, and the favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The fees now proposed and as indicated on the explanatory ayes have it. note to members are the average of all the views taken from the local authorities. I beg to move.

PENSION SCHEMES LEGISLATION Mr Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. (APPLICATION) ORDER 1995 — APPROVED Mrs Christian: If I may just raise one quick point, Mr The President: Item 12. President? With regard to appointing certifying persons it seems rather strange that we pay fees to people who may Mr May: Mr President, I beg to move: never have anything to do in the event of there being no poll. I am told that this may be because it is occasionally That the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) useful to have them appointed in advance because of time Order 1995 be approved. factors but surely it is not beyond the wit of those organising the elections to make appointments as and when they know The regulations being applied by this order are that there is going to be a job for them to do, and thus save consequential to the applications of the Island of the pennies if not pounds. Pension Schemes Act 1993 at the December 1995 sitting of Tynwald, so it is not too far behind for the hon. member The President: Reply, sir? for Glenfaba. This Act consolidated and repealed the majority of existing statutory provisions relating to Mr Groves: Yes, I note the hon. member of Council's occupational and personal pension schemes, and the comments. It is a comment that we have actually made regulations amend references within the existing ourselves within the department and I hope one that will regulations to provisions which have been repealed. I beg be taken into account of in the future. to move, Mr President. The President: Mr Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 14 on the agenda paper. Will those in The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The standing at item 12 on the agenda paper. Will those in ayes have it. favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. FINANCIAL SUPERVISION (PROFESSIONAL INVESTOR FUND) (EXEMPTION) ORDER NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (ISLE OF MAN) 1995 —APPROVED (GENERAL MEDICAL AND PHARMACEUTICAL SERVICES) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) The President: 15. The Minister for the Treasury. REGULATIONS — WITHDRAWN Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: The President: Item 13. That the Financial Supervision (Professional Mr May: Mr President, I must apologise to the Court Investor Fund) (Exemption) Order 1995 be approved. that, in accordance with the learned Clerk's briefing, this item is defectively drafted and I would seek the Court's Mr Gelling: This order creates a special type of approval to withdraw it. restricted collective investment scheme known as the

Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) Order 1995 — Approved National Health Service (Isle of Man) (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations — Withdrawn Local Elections (Fees) Order 1996 — Approved Financial Supervision (Professional Investor Fund) (Exemption) Order 1995 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T421

professional investor fund which will be available only to The President: Reply, minister? • investors who satisfy the criteria set down in the order - that is, that they must be either an authorised financial Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, indeed this has been institution or a person with net worth in excess of $2.5 borne out of a working party that was developed through million and who will invest no less than $100,000. Such the Treasury, the FSC and the fund managers, and I do investors neither desire nor require the same level of welcome the support of the hon. member for this initiative, regulation that is provided to ordinary investors. The and it is fair to say that it was in an effort to try and give professional investor fund will be operated by specially the fund managers another product to sell from an existing approved investment business and banking licence holders base here in the Isle of Man, and I think at this stage I in the Island who will be able to benefit from therefore could inform hon. members that, after our seminar last lighter regulation. For example, the professional investor Friday and further talks with the fund managers, I will not be moving item 18, which was the initial fee to be charged fund will be exempt from the mandatory requirement to on the presentation of a licence. So I hope I can assure the have a manager or trustee in the Island or io seek approval hon. member that here they have a product to go out and for the fund. However, the day-to-day operation of the sell that is a new product, no other jurisdiction has such a professional investment fund must be carried out in the product, and therefore I would hope that the fund managers Island by an investment business or banking licence holder will take this initiative and it will bring a lot more business who has been granted approval to undertake this activity. to the Isle of Man, and therefore I move item 15, Mr The professional investor fund will provide an attractive President, on the agenda. addition to the range of possibilities which the Island has to offer for fund management. Mr President, I beg to move The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution that the Financial Supervision (Professional Investor Fund) standing at item 15 on the agenda paper. Will those in (Exemption) Order 1995 be approved. favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir.

Mr Rodan: Mr President, I rise to welcome the COLLECTIVE INVESTMENT SCHEME introduction of the professional investor fund initiative and (PERIODICAL FEES) (NO. 2) REGULATIONS this order and the regulations that would govern it. This 1995 —APPROVED initiative originated with the fund and mutual fund management industry in the Island, who have been very The President: Item 16, sir. concerned at the fall in number and value of regulated schemes over the past year or so, and I think the reason for Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: that concern is demonstrated by the written answer to my question earlier today when, over a one-year period, the That the Collective Investment Scheme (Periodical number of schemes has fallen from 112 to 99 with a total Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 1995 be approved. aggregate value fall of over five million pounds down to four billion pounds. With this order we shall be putting in These regulations, which are part of this package of place a simple non-regulated structure to allow sponsors measures, are necessary to introduce the professional of professional investment funds to establish these funds investor fund, repeal and replace the Collective Investment quickly, inexpensively and simply in the Isle of Man. The Scheme (Periodical Fees) Regulation of 1995 and I so initiative is innovative and imaginative and, by aiming at move, Mr President. the specific needs of institutions as professional investors • who need a tax-efficient off-shore investment structure Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. without the encumbrance of retail investor protection which they neither require nor wish to pay for, I believe we have The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution tailored the right framework for a new investment product standing at item 16 on the agenda paper. Will those in such as this. We must all hope that this will serve to stabilise favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The the decline in the industry, bring more fund management ayes have it. business to the Island and ultimately create more jobs and growth in the finance sector. I would, however, issue a word of warning: other COLLECTIVE INVESTMENT SCHEME jurisdictions such as Dublin may be only too quick to copy (PROSPECTUS) (EXEMPTION) REGULATIONS our example and our initiative, and I hope we shall not in 1995 — APPROVED any way be shooting ourselves in the foot over the question of fees to accompany the approval by the Financial The President: Item 17, sir. Supervision Commission by setting up this activity. It is essential that we remain competitive and maintain our Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: appeal in the global market place and not be too reliant on British financial institutions only in our important finance That the Collective Investment Scheme (Prospectus) sector. (Exemption) Regulations 1995 be approved.

Collective Investment Scheme (Periodical Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 1995 — Approved • Collective Investment Scheme (Prospectus) (Exemption) Regulations 1995 — Approved T422 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Again, these regulations are part of this package and of specified bodies in line with the retail price index since they repeal and replace the Collective Investment Schemes the last increase, which was in July 1992. This increases (Prospectus) (Exemption) Regulations 1993. The new the rate from £15.70 per session to £17, and the rate for regulations extend the exemption from the requirement to the maximum allowances for more than one meeting in produce a prospectus to restricted collective investment any one session from £23.50 to £25.50. The rate of £56 schemes including a professional investor fund, and I so per hour has been increased to £60.50 per hour where the move, Mr President. chairman of a body is required to be an advocate, barrister or solicitor. Mr President, I beg to move item number 20. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 17 on the agenda paper. Will those in The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The standing at item 20 on the agenda paper. Will those in ayes have it. favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

INVESTMENT BUSINESS (EXEMPTION) (FIRST MANAGERS) REGULATIONS POOL BETTING DUTY (VARIATION) (NO. 2) 1995 — APPROVED ORDER 1995 — APPROVED

The President: Item 18 will not be moved. Item 19, The President: Item 21, sir. minister. Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: That the Pool Betting Duty (Variation) (No. 2) Order That the Investment Business (Exemption) (First 1995 be approved. Managers) Regulations 1995 be approved. The purpose of this order is to reduce the rate of pool These new regulations, which are again part of the betting duty paid on stakes from 32'12 per cent to 271/2 per measures which introduce the professional investor fund, cent and brings the Island into line with the rate in force in provide an exemption from the requirement to hold an the United Kingdom. investment business licence for managers of professional Receipts in the United Kingdom from pool betting duty investor funds who have delegated all but limited activity and the turnover of the pools companies has fallen sharply in respect of the professional investors fund to a licensed since the introduction of the national lottery. The reduction third party fund administrator or a bank in the Island, and of 5 per cent in the rate of duty will enable the companies I so move, Mr President. to increase the size of their prize fund and help them attract more customers. The change will have no effect on Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second again, sir. bookmakers on the Island, as none of these operate pool betting. Subject to the pools companies in the United The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Kingdom agreeing to pass an equivalent amount on to the standing at item 19 on the agenda paper. Will those in Football Trust and the Foundation for Sport and the Arts, favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The there will be a further 1 per cent reduction in the duty rate ayes have it. with effect from 5th May 1996. Members will recall concerns being expressed by this announcement and in particular by the member for the ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCES ORDER Council who is not in his seat, Mr Delaney, over the 1995 — APPROVED possible loss of income to the government, and we continue to discuss this with the UK Treasury and the Heritage Trust, The President: Item 20, minister. as without doubt the United Kingdom lottery has had an effect on pools betting duty and we are also concerned as Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: to the effect it has had on our own lottery. In that respect, in a full year, we estimate the revenue loss of the full 6 per That the Attendance Allowances Order 1995 be cent in the duty rate would be approximately £42,000. Also, approved. the Island does not receive any money from either the Football Trust or the Foundation for Sport and the Arts in The Attendance Allowances Order 1995 prescribes the respect of facilities on the Island, and the terms of the trusts amounts payable to non-Tynwald members of specified governing bodies seem to preclude grants to the Isle of bodies and the rates payable to legally qualified chairmen Man bodies or amendments of the terms to allow such of tribunals. This order provides for an increase in the grants. However, although the Island does not benefit from existing remuneration levels for non-Tynwald members the United Kingdom scheme, the Treasury is obliged to

Investment Business (Exemption) (First Managers) Regulations 1995 — Approved Attendance Allowances Order 1995 — Approved Pool Betting Duty (Variation) (No. 2) Order 1995 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T423

keep our rate of duty in line to accord with the terms of the standing at item 21 on the agenda paper. Will those in • Customs and Excise Agreement of 1979. Therefore, Mr favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The President, I beg to move item number 21 on our agenda ayes have it. today.

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. STATISTICS OF TRADE (CUSTOMS AND EXCISE) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS Mr Crowe: Mr President, in view of the interest of the (APPLICATION) ORDER 1995 — APPROVED UK national lottery in the Isle of Man, would the Treasury Minister like to consider that sales be allowed on the Isle The President: Item 22, sir. of Man so that the Treasury would get some benefit from that to compensate for the loss of revenue from the pools Mr President, I beg to move: betting duty? Mr Gelling:

Mrs Christian: Mr President, may I put a contradictory That the Statistics of Trade (Customs and Excise) point, and that is that rather than encouraging Isle of Man (Amendment) Regulations (Application) Order 1995 be residents to invest in the UK lottery, we would at least be approved. one stage better if we could make the better odds on our own lottery more well-known to people, and see if we could The purpose of this order is to vary the threshold above not encourage them to spend here rather than there. which a trader is obliged to provide statistical information to customs and excise on trade with EU countries. I beg to move. • The President: Reply, sir? Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, since of course the Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. lottery was first announced by the UK, we have been in consultation with the Treasury and the agents who are Mr Cringle: Mr President, we just have a comment on running it, but of course the difficulty we have is that the that one in relation to the statistics of trade, I am quite United Kingdom is restricted in not being allowed to sell happy for it, but in the attached document there it just says or not to have agents outside of the United Kingdom. This in sub-clause (1) 'and shall come into force on 1st January is part of the agreement. Now, that does not preclude people 1996' and it has just had a straight line drawn through it in the Isle of Man, as we well know, buying lottery tickets and I wonder whether that should have been initialled or in the UK. In fact, I am personally quite astounded at the whatever. It has on mine. number of people that do in syndicates, and there must be a lot money going off this Island into the UK lottery. We The President: Would you care to reply, sir? are continuing both to discuss this and investigate further as to whether or not there is a possibility of some way in Mr Gelling: I am sorry, Mr President, mine has not got which we could also benefit from some of the funds that a line drawn under it, it must have - (Interjections) are being accrued through the National Trust areas, and I also noticed in the press that the Channel Islands had also Mr Kermode: You have got to draw the line been making such inquiries. So we continue to discuss this, somewhere. but at the moment it is illegal for an agency in the Island to sell the tickets although it is not illegal for a person here Mr Gelling: Yes, I accept it should be initialled. Sorry, to buy them in the United Kingdom. So we are not sitting Mr President, I beg to move. back and saying, 'Well, that it is it, we are continuing to discuss it. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution Our own lottery, taking on the point of Mrs Christian - standing at item 22 on the agenda paper. Will all those in if anybody has any ideas of being able to make that more favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The attractive we certainly would like to hear from any member ayes have it. that has an idea because we have tried increasing the prize, we have tried by decreasing it from the large amount to smaller amounts so more people win, but certainly without doubt the lottery proceeds are going down and it is a VALUE ADDED TAX AND OTHER TAXES ACT disappointment because all of the moneys for our own 1973 (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) ORDER lottery, of course, go to charitable and good causes in the 1995 — APPROVED Isle of Man, but every pound that goes off the Island to the UK lottery gives us no benefit whatsoever. So this is The President: Item 23, sir. something I can assure hon. members we will continue to investigate. I therefore beg to move, Mr President, that Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: item number 21 be approved. That the Value Added Tax and Other Taxes Act 1973 The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 1995 be approved.

Statistics of Trade (Customs and Excise) (Amendment) Regulations (Application) Order 1995 — Approved Value Added Tax and Other Taxes Act 1973 (Amendment) (No.3) Order 1995 — Approved T424 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

The purpose of this order is to amend the Act so that it The vacancy in the membership of the Isle of Man Post conforms with certain provisions relating to value added Office Authority has arisen following the resignation of • tax introduced by the United Kingdom Budget. The order Mr Felix Gale with effect from 31st December 1995. Hon. makes a number of changes to the Act: firstly, in relation members will be aware that appointments to bodies such to goods imported on or after 1st January 1996, the as the Isle of Man Post Office Authority run from one valuation for value added tax of such goods is to include general election to the next. On occasions this can mean incidental costs such as commission, transport and related that there is a significant change in the membership of costs up to the place of destination in the United Kingdom these bodies, which can sometimes lead to a loss in and Isle of Man or a member state. Mr President, I beg to experience and background knowledge. More often, move item number 23 on our agenda today. though, continuity is provided for by the reappointment of at least some of the previous members. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. The reason for Mr Gale's resignation at this stage as a member of the Isle of Man Post Office Authority is to The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution provide for a degree of succession in the membership of standing at item 23 on the agenda paper. Will those in the authority and to allow a new member to take up the favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The post and become familiar with the works of the authority ayes have it. in the run-up to the November general election. Mr Gale has been a member of the Isle of Man Post Office Authority for some 14 years, and during that time has worked, VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE OF together with that of the other members of the Post Office REGISTRATION LIMITS) ORDER Authority, has helped to ensure that both business and 1995 — APPROVED individual customers have received a first-class service. I have written a letter of appreciation to Mr Gale and • The President: Item 24, sir. would like to take this opportunity to place on public record our appreciation to him for all his hard work and dedication Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: to the work of the authority during his period of membership (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) and to thank him That the Value Added Tax (Increase of Registration for his forethought and interest in the long-term future of Limits) Order 1995 be approved. the Isle of Man Post Office Authority. With regard to a replacement member, the Department The purpose of this order is to increase the de minimis of Industry has recommended to the Council of Ministers turnover levels above which a person must register for that Mr Terry Mackay is nominated for this vacancy and value added tax or below which a person can apply for the Council of Ministers have agreed to support that deregistration. The registration threshold is increased from nomination. Hon. members have been circulated with a £46,000 to £47,000 with effect from 29th November 1995 copy of Mr Mackay's CV. However, I am sure that he is in respect of taxable supplies and from 1st January 1996 already well known to many members through his in respect of acquisitions from member states of the EU. involvement in the industrial sector and his work in the The deregistration threshold is therefore increased from Chamber of Commerce. His commercial background and £44,000 to £45,000. Mr President, I beg to move item wide respect from people in the community will ensure number 24 on our agenda paper today. that he makes a valuable contribution to the future work at the Post Office Authority, and I have no hesitation Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. whatsoever, Mr President, in recommending him as a member of that Authority. So I beg to move the motion which is standing in my name. • The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 24 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Mr Lowey: Could I rise to second the resolution and to ayes have it. first of all commend Mr Gale's service to the people, and the Isle of Man. I have got two words down: 'wise counsel. Felix Gale would actually feel embarrassed if you had said that about him, but what I know he contributed to the Post ISLE OF MAN POST OFFICE AUTHORITY — Office was sound common sense in the commercial field, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBER APPROVED he has guided the Post Office for a long time and I think the results are well known to everybody. So I too would The President: Item 25. The Chief Minister. like to pay public tribute to the service of Mr Felix Gale in the Isle of Man Post Office Authority and I would commend Mr Walker: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Terence Duncan Mackay - Terry Mackay as he is known throughout the Isle of Man - for his abilities, his drive, his That the appointment of Mr Terence Duncan enthusiasm and his desire to serve the Isle of Man. I think Mackay as a member of the Isle of Man Post Office he will make a valuable contribution to the Post Office. I Authority be approved. would commend the Court to support the resolution.

Value Added Tax (Increase of Registration Limits) Order 1995 — Approved Isle of Man Post Office Authority — Appointment of Member Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T425

Mr Kermode: Mr President, whereas I have no axe to following his appointment by this hon. Court. Eight • grind with Mr Mackay, nor do I question his credentials or members were elected at that time, four to serve initially his ability or his commitment to the Isle of Man, when we for two years and four to serve for four years. The four look at these appointments and you look at what he is vacancies now being considered result from the rotational involved with at the moment - director of 3D Instruments retirements set out in the revised constitution of the Arts Limited, non-executive director of Robert Fleming, Council. The four persons originally appointed to serve member of the Energy Commission, chairman of Hospice for a four-year term have all, due to various personal Care P & R Committee, member of the Hospital Board, reasons, had to resign before the end of their term of chairman of the Manufacturing Committee... I just wonder appointment, and the persons now retiring have all served what is involved in all these other areas and does he have for less than the full four years. The Council of Ministers the time and energy to actively be involved in something agreed to recommend that these persons should be else? I mean, are these questions addressed? Has the person nominated for reappointment for a new term of a complete been spoken to? What is involved with the Post Office four years to allow them to carry on with the work with membership? Is it time-consuming? I just wonder whether which they have only just begun. that has been addressed, because there is a tendency to put Short CVs have been circulated to members and I do people on things and they end up resigning because they not propose going into detail, other than to say that the find it is too much for them, then we have to go through four nominees are all well-known both within the world this procedure again. I just wonder if that has been taken of arts and to our Island community generally. Their into consideration. contribution to the arts themselves over the years and to the work of the Arts Council during the period of their The President: The Chief Minister to reply. first appointment has been invaluable, and I have no hesitation at all in recommending their nomination to this • Mr Walker: Yes, Mr President, it has been taken into hon. Court, and I beg to move, sir. consideration - I was just responding to the point made by the hon. member Mr Kermode. I do believe that the large Mr Luft: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve involvement that Mr Mackay has, which is indicated on my remarks. his CV, is in fact indicative of the energy and willingness he has to lend his expertise to these various committees The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution and so on. He certainly has been spoken to and accepts the standing at item 26 on the agenda paper. Will those in amount of work that there is with the Post Office and is favour please say aye; and those against, no. The ayes have completely at ease that he can fit it in with his other it. The ayes have it. commitments. I do not have anything more to add, Mr President, except to urge this hon. Court to support my nomination of Mr Mackay for this authority. CRAFT AND TECHNICIAN TRAINING SCHEME (MANUFACTURING, CONSTRUCTION AND The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution SERVICE INDUSTRIES) 1995 — APPROVED standing at item 25 on the agenda paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The The President: Item 27, the Minister for Industry. ayes have it. Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move:

ISLE OF MAN ARTS COUNCIL— That the Craft and Technician Training Scheme • APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS (Manufacturing, Construction and Service Industries) 1995 be approved. The President: Item 26 the Chief Minister. I have circulated a short paper explaining what the Craft Mr Walker: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: and Technician Training Scheme (Manufacturing, Construction and Service Industries) 1995 is all about. I That the rotational vacancies on the Isle of Man would, however, just like to comment on the very helpful Arts Council which fall vacant on 31st January 1996 be comments made by the learned counsel, the Clerk to the filled for a four-year term commencing 1st February 1996 Court, on this particular measure which deals with it in by - 6.2.1, 6.2.2 and 6.2.3 of his blue paper. 6.2.1 deals with the discontinuation of training schemes, Mr J A Caine and really this has always been at the discretion of the Mrs W McDowell department without reference to Tynwald. All current Mr J Wright schemes contain a similar opening paragraph as the one in Mrs M Summerscales this particular measure. In 6.2.2 again it is normal practice in training schemes The Isle of Man Arts Council was reconstituted in 1992 to allow for the variation of the scale of grants, with the under the chairmanship of His Honour Mr Arthur Luft approval of Treasury, without reference to Tynwald. This

Isle of Man Arts Council — Appointment of Members • Craft and Technician Training Scheme (Manufacturing, Construction and Service Industries) 1995 — Approved T426 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

is necessary from time to time to reflect changes in training heavy burden, and I feel that the larger companies operating periods or trainees' salaries. For example, each year they on our Island... and equally I can understand them in the are put up by inflation and, rather than come back to the • efficiency and the impersonal supervision of larger Court every year to renew them, it is dealt with in this way contracts - there is difficulty to have provision for an - again, nothing new in what has been going on since the apprentice on site. Nevertheless, they do use craftsmen; schemes have been introduced. indeed, they could not do the job if they did not. Now, I 6.2.3 deals with the training services manager's feel that they should make some contribution towards the discretion. The job titles by which various trainees are training of the craftsmen that they use. It is obvious that if known across these industries are many and change from the craftsmen are not available on this Island, they will be time to time, and again this paragraph allows registration imported and that is not what we want. of trainees whose job title may be outside the normal So I would urge the minister to look at this area. It is an terminology but is following industrially recognised old one; I do not know if it operates in the UK now but training programmes - for example, printers and farriers certainly it used to, and I would have thought it would be to name but two. a simple scheme to operate on some - I do not know - half Normally we would encourage the take-up of apprentice a per cent of turnover or something like that; it could be a training by young people. However, if there are places minimal thing. available, we would consider older trainees, and we have The other area allied closely to this is the announcement from time to time dealt with people in their late 20s, 30s that I heard that employment opportunities will be staged and in one instance, I believe, in their 40s. With these older in March, I believe it is, and I warmly welcome that. I was applications we do, of course, have to consider the attitude associated with employment opportunities '88 and '90, I of employers and the adequacy of trainee pay rates et cetera. think it was, and it really is heart-warming to see the young Also, with paragraph 7.4 there may be situations where children from the schools coming in, see them talking to a person supported under the scheme works normally off the employers. Indeed, I am aware that some children, 14/ • the Island, and there, for example, I can quote the merchant 15, in fact made contact with employers and they actually navy. Their normal place would be out of the Isle of Man, took up employment when they left school with those but the scheme is operating here in the Isle of Man. employers, and I think it is most important that they should In paragraph 8 the minimum training period for be exposed, shall we say, in that sense to how, hopefully, registration under the scheme for certification of craftsmen they are going to earn their living in the future, and I warmly is normally three years. The vast majority of trainees welcome that. I would ask the minister if he would get his supported under this scheme are in industries covered by office to refer to it as 'employment opportunities' and not certification. However, there are some trainees in the more `job opportunities'. An image is so important and I would unusual areas supported by this particular scheme, but not just ask him if it could be titled that, and also I look forward subject to certification. In some cases the normal training to visiting the show when it is on. period recognised by that industry is less than three years, and in some cases it is more than three years. So therefore Mr Waft: Mr President, could I just support the last we need the flexibility and so discretion has always been member who has just taken his seat? I would agree with put into the schemes that we operate. him that the construction industry, especially in Northern Our aim, when we put forward these schemes, is not to Ireland, does pay a levy towards the training of the exclude people but to include as many people as we can. I apprentices under that scheme. It is forthcoming to the have to say that the discretion has been used in the past in training department and they check on it from time to time, the correct manner and I am sure it will continue to be and every firm in Northern Ireland does have to register used, and I think it is vital that we keep that discretion in that they have paid the fee. the hands of the department and its officers. I beg to move. I think we should make mention at this particular part of the discussion that the departments of government also • Dr Mann: I beg to second, and reserve my remarks. have a contribution to make with regard to apprentices, and I am thinking particularly with regard to the MEA and Mr Corrin: Mr President, I rise to congratulate the areas who hire a number of people to make sure that they minister (Members: Hear, hear.) on this motion today are taking their fair share of apprentices in these schemes, updating the scheme. There is no question about it, it is and I would like to see from time to time just the take-up important that we should have balanced employment from the departments, exactly how many they do take upon opportunities on the Island and, as much as we welcome apprenticeship schemes. Thank you. the activities of the finance sector and the number employed there, it is clearly in the Island's interests that The President: Do you wish to reply, sir? we should have opportunities for a wide range across the whole spectrum of society, and that is exactly what this Mr Lowey: Can I thank the hon. members for their does; it assists in that way. contribution and deal with the last question first? It may Just a couple of observations. I have asked the minister interest the hon. member to know that in the last fortnight before about a levy on the building industry to pay some I have had letters sent out to all departments of government of the costs, because I am aware that training of craftsmen and the statutory boards on the very subject that he has on the smaller companies - and it is a fact of life that it is raised here this morning. generally the smaller companies that do the training - is a Mr Corrin - can I thank him for his interest and also his Craft and Technician Training Scheme (Manufacturing, Construction and Service Industries) 1995 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T427

support? I certainly am not opposed in principle to the which a select committee could take evidence from the • imposition of a levy. I will give him an undertaking that I general public on. In particular, I have always found it sad have not closed my eyes to that and it will certainly be that we exclude those Manx economic refugees who were raised. The employment opportunities - to re-phrase it born but were forced to leave the Island because of the instead of 'job opportunities' - absolutely; I have no qualms lack of employment during the '50s and '60s and whose on that. We are reintroducing a very successful operation, long-term ambition was to retire back to their native land. and it was a very great success. Like most successful things, Those pensioners had no choice but to leave this Island, if you have them every year they can become routine, and and I do not believe that they should be penalised; after so I think that the then department was right to have a all, they are Manx and I believe that we have a break. It is right now, and I do think we should take this responsibility to all our Manx citizens to make sure that opportunity to say at this particular stage, all the forecasts, we look after our own people first. in particular for the manufacturing sector, are pointing to Some of the people in our community need to remember 1996 as a bumper year, and there could very well be skill what happened in the old days before we had a finance shortages. All of these schemes, all of our efforts are sector, when we only had good employment during the actually to try and make, as Mr Corrin rightly said, a short tourist season, but, apart from that, the only people workforce that is trained to the maximum, that has a skill who could live on this Island were the young and the base that is relevant to the needs of the employers of the elderly. Isle of Man. We are working with employers to try and Another glaring anomaly is that where you have two meet their requirements, and it does not matter whether men, one who has worked on the building site and the they are young people coming into the market for the first other worked for the Highway Board and had 5 per cent of • time or people in the marketplace now who can see his wages taken out for an occupational pension scheme. opportunities in new areas, we should be offering them This just covers the amount for social security, for which the opportunity to train and retrain. That is the aim of the he has had to pay 5 per cent of his wages for the last 15 or department and that is part of the aim of this particular 20 years of his working life. He does not receive a free TV measure that is before us today. Thank you, Mr President, licence or heating allowance or an extra Christmas bonus. and I would thank the Court for its support. There should be some reasonable disregard in these cases. There are also many other anomalies in our present pension The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution scheme that I feel are worthy of investigation. standing at item 27 on your agenda paper. Will those in I do hope that the Council of Ministers will not see this favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The proposal in front of us today as an attack on themselves. I ayes have it. hope that they can support this item on the agenda. I believe Mr Speaker, I take it your next item will take a little that this is one of the areas where they have worked well, time. I am looking for an item that will take about 10 and I feel they have nothing to fear from such an minutes. The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, I confer investigation. Only a refusal of such a select committee to with you for your agreement on this. investigate this petition will engender a feeling of mistrust, and that may not be a good position as far as our pensions Mr Karran: Would you like me to move item 30? are concerned. I do hope this hon. Court can accept this petition and The President: Item 30. Right. elect three members to investigate to allow the general public to come back with their concerns as far as this petition is concerned. I beg to move, Eaghtyrane. PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE OF Mr Quine: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, PETER HENRY CHAPMAN — REFERENCE TO sir. A SELECT COMMITTEE — MOTION CARRIED Mr Barton: Mr President, I am, I think like many Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to move: members, a little bit confused, because the hon. mover has just said he does not agree with a lot that is in the petition. That the petition for redress of grievance of Peter We have just had quite a long speech on items that are Henry Chapman presented at St John's on Tynwald Day nothing to do with the petition. In fact, his comments in 1995 be referred to a select committee of three Members his introduction do not specifically relate to the petition, for consideration and report. but to something that the Minister for the DHSS has already given a commitment to this hon. Court that he is addressing, Hon. members, I will be honest: I believe in being fair. so this is a different issue altogether. I must say that I do not totally agree with all the contents I was a little surprised when I saw that the third member within the petition. However, I believe there are principles for Onchan had belatedly picked up this petition now in involved in this petition that are long overdue for 1996 - must be a special year, this year, I think... investigation, and I feel it would do a disservice both to this hon. Court and to this section of our community if we Members: Oh! do not allow this investigation. There are a number of anomalies in the present scheme Mr Quine: You wouldn't know. • Petition for Redress of Grievance of Peter Henry Chapman — Reference to a Select Committee — Motion Carried T428 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Mr Delaney: It's a leap year. thing, the supplementary, he is talking about supplementary pension, not supplementary benefits as such. So 'Costa • Mr Barton: I hope that his introduction does not Geriatrica' - think on that one because these questions that confuse members, because we must address the petition I have just posed I think should be given to this hon. Court for grievance. before we vote on whether there should be a select I think hon. members will agree that a petition for committee into this particular grievance. Has, again I grievance and a request for a select committee is very repeat, the hon. member checked up on the petition before important indeed, but it is equally the duty of the member moving it today and looked into the background on it? picking up and moving the motion to have done some work And these, as I say, are very fundamental questions, hon. on it. In his reply, I trust he should be able to tell us what members, which require answers before I will support it, he has done, what he has found out and why he is and I would ask the Court not to support it if he does not supporting it, because in his introduction, he said he does give those answers. As I say, if the hon. member cannot not totally support it. If he had done some research, as I give us a full satisfactory reply to these questions as posed, did, because I found out two members in this hon. Court I would suggest hon. members should not support the had already done something, in 1994 a similar petition was petition in relation to a select committee. 'Costa Geriatrica', in fact presented at Tynwald Hill by this person, and in Mr President - remember that. At this stage, hon. members, fact the committee who examined these did not approve it the hon. member has not made his case, he has only added - I will not go into details why. But, following that, the headline. other two members for Onchan - and I give them credit for it, Mr Corkill and Mr Kniveton - both followed this up Members: Ooh! (Interjections). to see had there been something awry. Following this we now get the 1995 petition. It is interesting that both those Mr Cretney: You have got your vote now, Peter, after two members were unable, after their investigations, to that! • pick this one up. That is why I ask, I wonder whether the hon. member has in fact looked into this as is his duty if he The President: Reply, sir? is going to pick this one up. What has the hon. member told us today in support of Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would firstly say that I am the request for a select committee? I have already said the surprised that the hon. member for Social Security is not items he has talked to the Court about are something that aware of his background; I am fully aware of his the minister has already committed himself to in this Court background and I am disturbed in this hon. Court that you - nothing to do with this petition. (Mr Karran interjecting) are now going to say that because we have two classes of If I am to support this request, I must have some answers people within our society that come to these shores, it today, some specific answers to a number of questions. means that people cannot put a petition of grievance down Now I will say them very slowly so the hon. member can in Tynwald because they do not live in Britain. What do make note of them. (Laughter). you think Manx people should say to you, sir, who come from the United Kingdom - that we should not accept a Mr Delaney: Joined-up writing! petition from you? Yet again we are looking at minorities, and I find that absolutely disgusting in this hon. Court, Mr Barton: In the light of the contents of the petition - absolutely. If you accept the principle that people are to and we are talking about the petition now - come to live in this Island and you accept the position of having petitions of grievance, then the fact of whether he Mr Cannan: Are you writing, Peter? comes from Dorset or Berlin or wherever should not come into the issue, and I find that as a disgraceful way of why Mr Barton: - for a person who is now known as Mr • I wanted to see a Bill of Rights in this hon. Court, because Chapman, has Mr Chapman ever worked in the Isle of Man? If so, when and how long has he worked in the Isle of the protection of minorities. of Man, if he has worked? I think it is important we should Now, let us get back to the facts. I said in my opening know that before we start voting on a thing like this. Other remarks I do not totally agree with everything in this report. than, say, credits, which people can get, has the petitioner I need no lectures from the hon. member for Council about ever paid into the national insurance fund? - fundamental the heating allowance or all the other things. I remember in relation to the petition. Did the petitioner - and this is being a member of that department before he was one, another question I could rate - retire from work in the UK and I remember the original proposals from his department before moving to the Island? How old was he when he of 25p over three months for a heating allowance, so you retired? - quite important. How old was he when he moved would end up with a down deposit for a bag of coal at the • to the Island? end of it. So I need no lectures from you, sir, about how to I am reminded of some comments of the Chief Minister go about it. which I think this hon. Court were quite amused with and the press were: he talked about 'Costa Geriatrica', and it Mr Kermode: You could answer his questions. is not so long ago that he actually said this when we were talking about the pension supplement, and I think he also Mr Karran: And may I just also say... No, hon. member confused us because when he is talking about the other for East Douglas, some of us around here are prepared to Petition for Redress of Grievance of Peter Henry Chapman — Reference to a Select Committee — Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T429

motion carries with 16 votes in favour and 7 against. • protect the minorities. We do not all weigh everything up in the votes like some around here. And let me say, the point is too from the hon. member, I need no lectures from In the Council - him as far as commitment to the benefits are concerned. When was the last time it was reviewed, the £15,000 for For: Messrs Lowey, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe old people going into the old people's homes? When we and Delaney - 5 were there. We implemented that in that particular case because I was in charge of Social Services. The point is, Against: Messrs Barton, Luft and Mrs Christian - 3 and the bottom line is this: if there is nothing in this select committee and in this petition, then what are they getting The President: In the Council 5 votes have been cast so worked up over? That is the point. I am not saying that in favour of the resolution, 3 votes against. I declare the we have to agree with everything in this thing, but there resolution carried. are anomalies within the system that need to be addressed, We now proceed, hon. members, to appoint a select and I believe that this hon. Court does a disservice, committee of three. Now, nominations, please. Our learned especially if it is because this gentleman comes from secretary has the ballot papers circulated. Austria or from somewhere like that. That is the only reason you cannot support this - because this person comes from Mr Delaney: I rise to nominate the member of Council, outside the United Kingdom. I think that is a very Mr Barton, Mr President. dangerous step indeed, and highlights my concerns for • minorities and the reason why, before we take total Mr Bell: I second Mr Barton, Mr President. independence in this Island, we need a basic Bill of Rights, so that politicians who look at their votes as the hon. Mr Corkill: I nominate Mr Karran, Mr President. member talks about, will not be allowed to take advantage of minorities within this society. Mr Braidwood: I second Mr Karran, Mr President. I understand the position of the petitioner. I know what the position is, that he is not from the Isle of Man and he Mr Karran: Can I propose Mr Quine, Eaghtyrane? did not originate from the United Kingdom, but the point is, does that mean that he cannot put a petition through? Mr North: I second Mr Quine. And does that mean that the points within this petition... I do not agree with all of them but there are points within Mr Cringle: I propose Mr Speaker, sir. this petition, and I believe that it means more for the people who are non-aligned in this hon. Court to say, 'Well, we Mr Barton: I beg to second. should investigate' and I hope that hon. members will support the select committee - Mr Delaney: Can I nominate the member for North Douglas, Mr May? Mr Kermode: Answer the question! Mr Radcliffe: I second that, sir. Mr Karran: - because I believe it should be done because that is the important issue today. I beg to move. Mr Quine: I propose Dr Mann, sir, Member of the Council. • Mr Kermode: Answer the questions! The President: A seconder for Dr Mann? The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 30 on your agenda paper. Will those in Mr Cretney: I will second Dr Mann, just to make it favour please say aye; against, no. interesting!

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: The President: Are there any further nominations, hon. members? If not, the Court will proceed to the ballot and In the Keys - the learned Clerk, once the ballot papers are in your possession, will read out the names of those nominated For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, Corrin, Brown, and you will vote for three. Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Bra idwood, Kermode, Downie, Groves, Karran, Corkill, Gelling and the The Clerk: The members nominated and seconded are: Speaker - 16 first in the Council, Mr Barton and Dr Mann; and in the Keys, in alphabetical order, Mr Karran, Mr May, Mr Quine Against: Messrs Gilbey, North, Walker, Cringle, May, Mrs and Mr Speaker. Hannan and Mr Bell - 7 The President: In the Council would Mr Lowey act as The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the teller, please? • Petition for Redress of Grievance of Peter Henry Chapman — Reference to a Select Committee — Motion Carried T430 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

The Speaker: And in the Keys would Mr Duggan, members in the earlier debate. In the course of preparing please? this second report we have also taken the opportunity on • our own initiative to refine the substance and drafting of Mr Brown: The first job he had this year - I hope there some aspects of the standing orders. is not a funeral! (Laughter) I am sure that, as was the case with our earlier report, members will have studied this report with care. However, Mr Kermode: Nice one, Mr Speaker, that has made it may be helpful to hon. members if I indicate briefly the my day! principal changes which we have made to the proposed standing orders since we last reported. A ballot took place. In our earlier report we recommended the introduction of a right of reply for the mover of an amendment. This The President: Hon. members, the voting in the ballot was the recommendation which attracted most comment was as follows: Mr Barton, 21 votes, Dr Mann, 8 votes; in the earlier debate. A significant number of members Mr Karran, 24 votes - there is such a flourish to Mr May's indicated that they were not in favour of this innovation, name I could not even read it! (Laughter); Mr May, 11 although there were some who supported it. We considered votes; Mr Quine, 12 votes; and Mr Speaker, 17 votes. the recommendation again - and I must admit at some length - and in the end, on a majority vote, the committee Mr Brown: The good, the bad and the ugly! (Laughter) has withdrawn its recommendation. There was also consideration in the previous debate of The President: The hon. members I declare elected are the standing orders relating to the Public Accounts Mr Barton, Mr Karran and Mr Speaker. Committee. One concern was that the quorum of the Public Accounts Committee had been set at three members. As Mr Kermode: It will be like a sandwich! (Laughter) we explain in our report, we consider that there was good • reason for this. A larger quorum is likely to create The President: The Court will now take a break, hon. difficulties because a member of the committee cannot take members, and we will resume at ten minutes past five by part in an inquiry in which he or she has had a departmental the Court clock. interest, and there are occasions when we have to take note of such an interest and take action accordingly. We find The Court adjourned at 4.47 p.m. this consideration a persuasive one and we have therefore maintained the quorum of the Public Accounts Committee at three members. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE OF TYNWALD This committee is also the subject of a resolution of — FIRST REPORT 1995-96 RECEIVED Tynwald which is set out in our report at appendix 2. Paragraph A of that resolution places a requirement on the The President: We turn now, hon. members, to item Public Accounts Committee to lay an annual report before 28 on the agenda paper and I call upon the hon. member Tynwald on its work. We have inserted that requirement Mr Speaker to move the resolution standing in his name. in the proposed standing orders. Paragraph B of the resolution excepts the Public The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: Accounts Committee from the rule that no question may be asked in Tynwald about the proceedings of a committee until it has reported. The basis of the general rule is, we That the First Report 1995-96 of the Standing consider, a sound one and widely accepted elsewhere - Orders Committee of Tynwald be received and its this is, that a parliamentary assembly which has delegated recommendations adopted. • a function to a committee should await the report of the committee before it considers the matter further, not least As members of this hon. Court will be aware, the to avoid any impression that it is influencing either directly Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald has been or indirectly the deliberations of the committee. We accept undertaking the first comprehensive review of our standing that these considerations are not as pertinent where the orders for some considerable period now. Our purpose was issue is not how a committee is conducting its inquiry but to present the standing orders in a systematic, clear, helpful the pace at which it is conducting it. We have therefore and hopefully accurate manner. Members will recollect amended standing order 3.4(8) to include an exception to that we reported the results of our review to the April 1995 the general rule that questions may be asked as to the date sitting and, following an interesting and helpful debate, on which a committee expects to report. We do not, our report was received and the committee was asked to however, believe that on mature reflection the Court would consider the observations which members had made in the see a compelling argument for making the Public Accounts course of the debate. We have done this and we now present Committee the sole exception from a general rule that a further report. questions should not be asked on the work of a committee. In some instances we have incorporated the views of We therefore, in our recommendations, recommend that members in our further revision of standing orders whilst paragraph B of the Tynwald resolution relating to the Public in others, for reasons set out in our report, we have not felt Accounts Committee which has this effect should be able to accept proposals for amendments suggested by hon. rescinded. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T431

I would also like to comment at this stage on two less not like any member to think that the Standing Orders • central matters which were the subject of comment in the Committee goes into - if I can use the expression - debate last April. It was suggested in the debate that on suspended animation. It is there to do the work that is Tynwald Day the practical difficulties of the coroners necessary in trying to ensure that standing orders are kneeling to take their oaths of office could be avoided if adapted and hopefully improved in order to keep up to they were allowed to stand to take the oath. In deference date with that which is required by the members of this to the present long-established procedure we have Court. considered that there should be no change in the present I have no doubt that other matters will be drawn to the arrangements. attention of the committee by members either in this debate Secondly, during the debate in April some doubt was or from time to time in the future, and indeed the committee expressed as to the practicality of including the Tynwald may consider proposals for revision on its own initiative. crest on the prescribed forms annexed to the proposed The procedure of the Court will continue to evolve as it standing orders. Our inquiries have satisfied us that adapts to changing circumstances. However, I do believe reproducing the Tynwald crest does not pose difficulties that the revised standing orders now before the Court, and we therefore have not changed the forms. which we recommend should become effective from the I now turn briefly to some of the other changes which day following the next general election to the House of we have made, having had an opportunity to look again at Keys, address the contemporary situation in the manner the standing orders which we proposed last April. We have which allows them to be adopted today. I beg to move. had an opportunity to look again at standing order 3.14, which in arcane parliamentary language refers to the Mr Cringle: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve superseding of a motion - that is, the suspending of debate my remarks. of one motion in favour of another. In its April form, or its first form, it addressed the possibility of a motion being Mr Quine: Mr President, I readily accept that the draft superseded by an amendment. It used to be the practice of the new orders represents an excellent product, I find that once an amendment had been moved and seconded, them very easy to read and I am very supportive of them, debate was then restricted to that amendment. Once the but there is one particular order which I find impossible amendment had been accepted or rejected the main debate for me to really accept, and that is standing order number continued until perhaps another amendment was moved, 3.26(1), and this, of course, relates to the right of reply in and then the process was repeated. This is no longer our certain circumstances. As the order stands it provides for practice and it was unnecessary to address it. What we a right of reply in terms of the person who has, of course, have done, however. is to include in the standing order the moved the principal motion and for the person who has motions which still do have the effect of suspending debate moved for an adjournment; it does not provide for a right on the motions before the House. of reply where an amendment has been moved. Of course, We have introduced a new standing order, 3.23(7). This members will readily recognise that that procedure is has the effect of bringing a parliamentary convention into different to what we have in another place. I feel that this our standing orders, namely that a member should not refer is a very important omission and I do feel strongly that to a document which has not been made available to all 3.26(1) should have an additional sub-paragraph put in to members unless its publication was inconsistent with the make provision for a situation where a person who has public interest. We have also altered standing order 10.5, moved an amendment should be granted a right of reply. which provides a procedure for the amendment by Tynwald The position as I see it is basically this: Tynwald - and of a Bill which has been passed by the branches. The indeed, I would suggest, any body corporate - should, in • present arrangements are that a memorandum must be taking a decision, have before it the best, the fullest possible circulated to members of the proposed amendments for information, and if we have a situation, as we do not the sitting at which the amendments are to be considered. infrequently in Tynwald, where we have an amendment We consider that this procedure should correspond more moved to a motion which substantially replaces the closely to normal parliamentary practice and that the principal motion and brings about a situation where the amendments should be incorporated in a motion and not whole import and impact of the motion as the amendment merely circulated as a memorandum. We have amended proposes is completely different to the substantial motion, the standing order accordingly. then there is one party, I would suggest, who is best placed I believe I have addressed the principal changes which to provide all that information, and that is the person who we have made to the proposed standing orders from those has moved the amendment. If we have a situation, contained in our earlier report. Although the comprehensive therefore, where an amendment is moved and where we revision of standing orders has been a major exercise, the have questions asked, points made about it, it seems to me task of the Standing Orders Committee in recommending to be quite illogical and certainly not conducive to good revision of the standing orders is a continuing one and I procedure and good decision-making if the party who is would like to emphasise that point. The Standing Orders best placed to provide the answer to those questions and Committee meets as and when it is necessary to meet in to respond to that information is denied the right of reply, order to conduct its business, whether that business is so I honestly believe that this provision should be made in referred to it by the Court or by individuals or whatever. If 3.26(1). and when we reach a conclusion, which I hope we will do, I do not see really what the objection to it can be. If we with regard to the motion that is before us today, I would look at it as objectively as we can and say 'What do we • Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received T432 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 need to have before Tynwald when it is making a the order of business on the agenda paper. I think that one decision?', we need to have as much pertinent information is straightforward. Thirdly, I would move an amendment • as we possible can in coming to a decision, and I believe to delete the words 'acting in a governmental capacity' that if we look at it from that point of view members will and I on my amendment have only got 'in a government see the merit in the amendment which I propose, and that capacity' and have prepared a further amendment, if the is that we change it to say 'Yes, if you are moving the Clerk requires it, with the word 'acting' included in that. motion you have a right of reply, if you are moving for an Statements can be made with the President's permission adjournment you have a right of reply, but also if you are by members in a number of capacities, and certainly they moving for an amendment you have a right of reply.' And can be speaking on behalf of their government body and indeed I would suggest that if we had a hierarchy of strength perhaps that is where the majority of statements are made, of case it would go immediately after the principal motion. but they can be also speaking as a representative of a So I would ask hon. members to give serious parliamentary committee or in an individual capacity or consideration to the amendment which is in my name, that indeed on a personal basis, and it seems to me there is no we should make provision in 3.26(1) to allow for a right good reason to draw a distinction between a statement made of reply. I really can see no objection to it, I think it is on behalf of the government and any other statement which conducive to the democratic process, it is conducive to members might feel the need to clarify by means of a good decision-making and I would hope that it would question, and so I would move the amendment to delete enhance the standing of this hon. Court. Thank you. I beg those particular words. to move: I did notice with interest the other evening a reference on the television to a situation taking place in the Houses of Parliament in the United Kingdom where a member Insert "(1)" after "That" and for the words "received" was being criticised for making a personal statement in substitute - order to respond to a question, and members did not have • the ability to ask any questions of that hon. member. It "(2) in standing order 3.26(1) insert at the end `(c) seemed to me that that was a good example of the point has moved an amendment'; and that I am trying to make with this amendment. Finally on the amendment sheet there is another (3) the recommendations in the report be otherwise amendment to the conclusions of the report which is adopted." necessary if the first amendments are accepted by this hon. Court. Mr Kermode: Can I rise to second that amendment, If I could just mention the amendment proposed by the Mr President? I totally agree with the hon. member who hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine - and I hear what he says has just spoken, having been on the receiving end myself - all I would say to that is that I am not convinced that our moving amendments; then you find that a counter- proceedings in the past have been shown to be lacking argument is put forward to your amendment which you because we have not had a standing order which allows know full well you have got the answers to, yet you are the proposer of an amendment the right of reply and I still not in that privileged position where you can answer. Now, remain to be convinced that it is a necessary standing order I know some members will say this will go on but, at the to have. I would just beg to move the amendments that end of the day, what is important is that we get it right stand in my name: regardless of the length of time it may take in some debates the way debates go on. So I hope hon. members will support Insert "(1)" after "That" and for the words after that amendment - I do intend to support the other "received" substitute - amendment as well but it is not before us - I do feel that this is very important for members and right, especially "(2) (i) in standing order 1.1(3), for "Governor" • when they are doing their job on behalf of their constituents, substitute "President"; and where they are moving amendments because it is beneficial to the people of the Isle of Man as a whole and there are (ii) in standing order 3.5(1), for "2.2.(3)" counter-arguments for and against, and we should be given substitute '2.2(4)" that chance to argue back the points that have been raised against a particular amendment. So I hope members will (iii) in standing order 3.5(5), delete "acting in a support that. governmental capacity"; and

Mr Walker: Mr President, I have circulated an (3) the recommendations in the report be otherwise amendment to this resolution which deals with three of adopted." • our standing orders. The first one, I think, is simply an oversight and it intends to put that right and that is in The President: Is there a seconder to the Chief paragraph 1.1(3), and members will see the word Minister? `Governor' is in that standing order and I am sure that should read 'President', and this intends to put that one Mr Gelling: I beg to second, Mr President. right. The second amendment I am suggesting is a typographical error where in standing order 3.5(1) it says The President: Thank you. The hon. member for `for "2.2(3)" ' and it should be `2.2(4)', which refers to Glenfaba. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T433

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I support the amendments to put a very clear, common-sense argument why for. • standing orders proposed in this report before us. I also Something is either right or it is wrong. If we in this Court support the amendments by the hon. member for Ayre and decide amendments are necessary and we get the by the Chief Minister for the reasons that both of them committee to go to the trouble of getting these amendments have explained. before us while we are still in session - that is, this Court is I personally anticipate that most hon. members of this still in session - and we find a fault that we need to see Court will support this report and vote in favour of it. In changed, we should bring it in as soon as possible. There such a case it must be taken that we consider these standing is no reason against it. It has no bearing whatsoever on orders to be an improvement on the existing standing stopping any other committee in the future changing the orders, because if we thought the existing ones were better standing orders, altering, or any member putting a we clearly would not change them. That being so, I cannot resolution down to change standing orders, and I think the see any advantage at all, but indeed various disadvantages, member has put a very logical case and I would support in delaying the introduction of the new standing orders the amendment to get them in. If we think they are wrong until after the next general election in November. Instead, and we have changed them, let us bring them in. What is I believe that if these are an improvement, which voting good for us must be good for the next Court, or vice versa, for them will show that we think to be the case, we should I would suggest. want to bring them in as soon as possible. I therefore asked Mr Speaker, as chairman of the committee, the reason for The President: There is one point of clarification I the delay and, as I understand it, he suggested to me that would like to have made at this stage. The hon. member the reason was that it was felt that a Court with a number for Glenfaba has indicated he is moving only the first part of new members would be more flexible and more easily of his tabled amendment - in other words, 'For the words accept the changes than perhaps all of us, but I cannot see after "and" substitute - (i)', and then, when you come to • that we are not capable of change. Indeed I think the reverse (ii) you are eliminating that. Is that correct? is the case, that we who are experienced in the question of standing orders, whatever they may be, should be the Mr Gilbey: The hon. Clerk of Tynwald drafted this for people to bring in the change, and when some new people me, Mr President, and he has subsequently said he thinks join this Court after the November election they would one should leave out (ii) but I do not see that. I do not find at least a nucleus of people who have considerable mind whether (ii) is left out or not, because I cannot quite experience and understand the then new standing orders. see - why leave out (ii)? It was all right previously. I cannot So I can see absolutely no advantage in delaying bringing see why it is wrong now. in these standing orders if they are right, and we have shown they are right by voting in favour of them. Why The President: I want to be absolutely clear as to what delay their introduction? was being moved and it is the whole of the tabled Accordingly, I am moving the amendment circulated amendment? in my name: Mr Gilbey: Yes, I will move the whole, please. For the words after "and" substitute - The President: Thank you. Now, the hon. member for "(i) the draft Standing Orders set out in Appendix 1 of Castletown. the Report be adopted as the Standing Orders of Tynwald with effect from 29th March 1996; and Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I first would like to say, as I said the last time we had a report from this • (ii) the recommendations at paragraph 3.1(b) and (c) committee, that they have a difficult job to do in trying to of the Report be adopted". satisfy everybody in what is really quite a complex matter, and I think the complexity has been shown to be done quite The reason for 29th March is that it gives a period before well in terms that the vast majority last time were content the April sitting of this hon. Court and is the date when and I think that this time the same will happen. However, documents are circulated et cetera, so it would effectively no surprise to the committee, I am sure, that I am concerned mean that the new standing orders, if they are approved, certainly about one of their recommendations, and I will would become effective from and at the April sitting of come back to that as we get to it. this hon. Court. The second part of the amendment is I would like to say that, as for the point regarding the merely intended to show that I am not suggesting any other right of a member to reply to amendments, I think the change. I do gather from the hon. Clerk that you may wish argument that was put over at the last sitting when we to leave that out for procedural reasons as there are other debated this is as valid today as it was then in that really, amendments. But the important part of my amendment is as the Chief Minister said, nothing has been a problem in that which proposes that the new standing orders should terms of members dealing with amendments as they go become effective, not from after the November general along, and one of the points I put over last time is that of election but from and as at our April sitting. I beg to move. course - we have got a number of amendments before us today - we could have occasions - and it has been seen in Mr Delaney: I rise, Mr President, to second the the past - where there are six amendments before us, and amendment by the hon. member Mr Gilbey. I think he has that means then that you can have a debate, you could • Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received T434 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 have six amendments put, then six replies and then the about, and that is with regard to appendix 2 at the back. mover winding up, and I think that if a member cannot Members will recall, I am sure, that in July 1993 at the • make his case when presenting his amendment, then in sitting of Tynwald I moved a resolution which said that fact that is unfortunate. So I think we need to be very careful standing order 35(6) be 'permanently suspended in respect about this because it is different than in the Keys where of the said committee' and the committee I was talking we are dealing line by line, clause by clause; here we are about was the Public Accounts Committee, not all the dealing about overall policy of a subject and therefore it committees of Tynwald but purely the Public Accounts opens the door very broad in those terms, and I certainly Committee, and that was part of a resolution to enable the will not be supporting that one. I have been consistent about Public Accounts Committee to provide this Court with a that and I certainly will continue to be. meaningful annual report which is laid before Tynwald I think the point Mr Gilbey makes about introducing and is not debated, and as members, I am sure, have found them straightaway - if that is possible, then I think that it quite interesting. Now, in the last report of the committee, they actually said, and I quote from page 4 - this is the quite logical to do; I do not know the practicalities of that report that came to Tynwald, I think it was April 1995 - and maybe the chairman of the committee will respond to 'Standing order 3.47 introduces a right to ask a question that. in relation to the date on which a committee expects to The other point I would like to make before I get on to report, so providing a procedure to counter any suspected my own main point is, in the report that we have before dilatoriness on the part of the committee and the us, if members go to page 3°, 'Standing Order 3.23(7)', it opportunity to answer such a charge. We are aware that states there 'Having identified a problem in respect of the existing standing order has been suspended in respect information given to Members, we have introduced a new of the Public Accounts Committee. It does not appear to paragraph in SO 3.23 which reflects general parliamentary us desirable to embody this in standing orders, which we practice and will prevent the introduction into debate of are convinced should provide the general code of practice references to documents' - and these are the words that in as simple a form as possible,' and that was the • are important - 'which are not available to all Members.' recommendation at that time and I was, as members will Now, if hon. members then go to the standing order that recall, quite critical of the point. was altered, which is on page 16, it actually does not say We have now moved a stage further, when it has gone that. What it says under standing order 3.23(7) is: 'Unless back to the committee and the committee have not said, it is of such a nature that its publication would be `Let us just leave it still as a general code' or 'let us inconsistent with the public interest, no document may be incorporate it'; they have said, 'Let us get rid of it.' In referred to' - and the important words are - 'until a copy other words, we have gone to the full point, and the point has been distributed to all Members.' That does not say I was making was, whilst it was a resolution of Tynwald what the report says in its findings. The wording is changed, that I had had support from which suspended that standing and I wonder how practical it is when a member, for order, my concern was that if it was not incorporated into example - it could be us independently - moves something, standing orders, through time it might disappear as referring to a document that we have but has not been members changed and so on, and it was quite an important distributed to all members, and therefore we cannot debate point. Now we have the committee coming back after it according to that standing order. Yet in the actual report considering what was said and saying 'Let us get rid of it of the committee it says 'documents which are not available altogether. We do not believe there should be the suspension to all members'. So the document might be available but of that standing order.' I believe there should, because otherwise the information from the Public Accounts it is different if you are saying it must be distributed, and I Committee - not all the committees, purely the Public believe that that is a fundamental error in the report and I Accounts Committee - that will be able to be provided to have to say... I hope I am right, and I look to the chairman members in an annual report will be so limited it will be a to rectify that. So in other words, the important words are worthless bit of paper, basically, and I do not believe that • in your report, in paragraph 2.11 you say we cannot refer is in our interest. The basis of why I put that resolution to documents which are not available to all members, but down was because none of us knew what was going on in in your actual draft standing orders, under 3.23(7), you the Public Accounts Committee. We did not know what say, 'until a copy has been distributed to all members', they were considering, we did not know what things they and that is a fundamental difference. I might have a copy were looking into or anything, and the annual report which of a document that is publicly available - it might be a is laid before Tynwald in July at least advises the Court, single sheet of paper, or it might be a document with 40 who that committee after all is part of, what subjects they pages or 100 pages - and I am going to be stopped under have actually got under consideration. I believe, if there is that standing order from using it because I have not any doubt of that being lost because of suspension of this, circulated it to all members. If necessary, we might need then we should not accept it, and I certainly will be voting an amendment, Mr President, and I look to you, really, to against the part of the resolution from the committee, which see how to deal with that but I believe that is wrong, and I is 3.1(c), and I hope hon. members will support me on that hope it is wrong because, if it is not, I do not agree with as well. But I do look forward to Mr Speaker, as chairman that standing order. of this committee, responding to paragraph 2.11 and the subsequent terminology in the standing order which I think A Member: And you will not be able to reply either. does not reflect what was said in 2.11. Thank you.

Mr Brown: I then move on to the one I am concerned Mr Carman: Mr President, there is just one point of Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T435

clarification which I would ask the mover to elucidate with amendment - if you have got a strength of argument, • me: is there anything in these standing orders which will because at the end of the day you have got sometime to or may in the future prevent members speaking on items blow the whistle and make a decision. that are on a Tynwald agenda actually before the sitting of Now, I welcome the Court's general acceptance. It is Tynwald occurs? I think this is an important point because, very, very rare indeed in a political forum to get such a from time to time, members have questions tabled for degree of support for the recommendations that are in. I Tynwald and discuss them before Tynwald sits on the radio, think, if you take it in percentage terms, we are 99 per cent they have resolutions and discuss them on the radio before of the way there now, albeit there may be a fundamental the Tynwald and they are items on the Tynwald agenda disagreement on maybe that one particular clause with me which seem to be debated on current affairs programmes and maybe the hon. member for Ayre, but I would certainly on Manx Radio before the actual sitting of Tynwald, and I say, on this occasion, that there is a standing committee - would like some guidance on that in this current standing this committee that we are on, the Standing Orders orders. Committee, is a standing committee - and I am certain we will, when we come to review what has been said today - Mr Lowey: Could I just say that, having served on this and we will review what has been said today - be taking committee for a couple of years and the report is the first into account the views of the hon. members. comprehensive report for a number of years, I can quite understand the reason why, but it is interesting that Mrs Hannan: On the point raised by the member for members have taken a great deal of interest in the standing Castletown with regard to standing order 3.23(7), could I orders and rightly so. Having ploughed through them propose, Eaghtyrane, that it read, if I can find it... initially, harrowed them, harrowed them again, rolled them, here we are, almost putting in the final seeds and still there • are amendments, and practical ones, I may add. I am trying Mr Kermode: Why can't he do this? to use a farming analogy because hopefully, when they are down, we will have a set of rules that guide us in the Mrs Hannan: It is to delete on the third line everything deliberations. after 'to' and substitute it with 'which is available to I am only on my feet, really, to say that I do have members': 'Unless it is of such a nature that its publication reservations, and I was a minority on the former committee would be inconsistent with the public interest, no document regarding the right to reply to amendments. I noted with may be referred to which is not available to Members.' very great interest the mover... and he will not have the Because it can be available, it can be published. What the right to reply, and I can understand the frustration at this existing standing order says is that if it is not in the moment in time! I noticed when he spoke - and he is a members' hands it cannot be mentioned, and therefore it very eloquent speaker, he did not give you, he could not can be the policy document that was issued at the beginning give you, a single example of where an amendment has of the year but the members do not have it in their hands been lost because the mover did not have a right of reply. when it comes to January, February, but it has been issued to members or - Mr Quine: Numerous. Mr Cringle: If it has been issued it is in the public Mr Lowey: He says 'Numerous' but I doubt it. I domain. genuinely believe, in practical terms - Mrs Hannan: - it is a document which is publicly Mr Delaney: Give us an example now. (Laughter) available. It would be difficult in other circumstances where members of departments or members comment on a • Mr Lowey: I am going to give an example now if the particular document which is not available to members hon. member will listen! The seconder of the amendment generally, but if a document is published members should said that, standing here and speaking on behalf of their be able to comment on such a document, and therefore I constituents, they should have the right to reply. That goes beg to move the amendment, if I can pass it to the Clerk. for every single member who makes a speech here in this Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Court. How many times do you interpret the speech of the hon. member who has just... Does he have a right then to Mr Kermode: Somebody move it be adjourned. reply because you have either misinterpreted his speech or not? Where do you draw the line? Now, there are Mr Crowe: I rise to second Mrs Hannan's amendment. practical difficulties in this. If you bring that to its logical conclusion you could be here many times, and I say to Messrs Cannan and Quine: What is it? you, in the political forum that we have legitimately, it would be worth all your whiles to move an amendment to The President: As soon as I have the last amendment virtually everything but you will get a second bite of the in my possession I will call upon Mr Speaker to reply. cherry. Now, the realities of that will become practicalities, One other hon. member has signified his wish to address in my view, sooner rather than later, and I have been in the Court. Hon. member? this Court 20-odd years and I have found no difficulty at all in making the case when you move your amendment - Mr Gelling: I just want to speak to the resolution, Mr that is the time to make your case, when you move your President. In welcoming the report there is just one point I

• Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received T436 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 would like perhaps the mover, Mr Speaker, to clarify, and Mr Cretney: Very generous, Mr President. that is that we have now addressed the budgetary situation • at the sittings of Tynwald, and I just wonder whether he The President: Do you wish to clarify any point? could clarify whether or not the standing order 2.11 on page 7 is wide enough to ensure that any measure that Mr Delaney: This just does not make any sense. perhaps is undisposed of in the February sitting and is carried over to the March - does that still allow the A Member: I think it does. budgetary consideration to be first on the agenda and that subsequent business then will be after the Budget has been Mrs Hannan: With the indulgence of the House, discussed? 3.23(7) states: 'Unless it is of such a nature that its • publication would be inconsistent with the public interest, Mr Delaney: You will have your hour of glory, Don! no document may be referred to unless a copy has been distributed to all members.' What I am suggesting is that The President: Hon. members, the final amendment members cannot comment on anything unless the members now seems to be a little clearer. Standing order 3.23(7), have that document in front of them. `for the words "referred to" substitute "unless a copy is available to members" ' and that is the final amendment. Mr Delaney: Yes, that is the point I am making.

The Speaker: Could you read that out again, sir? Mrs Hannan: Now, what I am suggesting is that it should be amended that unless it is available to members, The President: In standing order 3.23(7), 'for the words not in their hands personally, but if it is the policy "referred to" - document, by this standing order it cannot be referred to unless it has been distributed to all members. • The Clerk: No, after the words "referred to". Mr Delaney: Therefore it is the point I am making, Mr The President: After the words "referred to" substitute President. I would like the Attorney-General or the Clerk "unless a copy is available to members".' Is everyone clear to speak on this. about that amendment at this stage? Good. Right, that is the final amendment and - Mrs Hannan: What I am suggesting is that those words be substituted to read `...no document may be referred to Mr Delaney: Who seconded that, Mr President? unless it is available to all members.' This reverts to the discussion document which is at the beginning of this Mr Lowey: Mr Crowe. document on page 3 which comes under 2, on the first page, 'Points raised in Debate', and this comment from A Member: The hon. member for Douglas North. the committee states, 'Having identified a problem in respect of information given to members we have Mr Delaney: Therefore, Mr President, I would like to introduced a new paragraph, standing order 3.23, which speak on that amendment. reflects general parliamentary practice and will prevent the introduction into debate of references to documents The President: Of course you can, sir. which are not available to all members.' But when it is written down under 3.23(7) it does not say that. It says Mr Delaney: I think it is very important and I would `Unless it is of such a nature that its publication will be like some clarification. If we are talking now about a inconsistent with the public interest no document may be document, as I understand it, that is not... If somebody • referred to unless a copy has been distributed to all refers to something which is in the remit of a minister which members.' So what I am suggesting is that, unless it is is confidential, how do we stand then, because he then is available - and that could mean that it has been produced, breaking standing orders? If he refers to a document or it has been discussed before this Court in previous sittings something that we have not got because it has not been or it might be published and laid in the library but it is produced for our deliberation but is on its way, he is available to members, it is not a restricted document that immediately in conflict with standing orders. For example, is with a department that is being referred to. I hope that I am preparing a document that will clarify the situation in relation to parking problems that we discussed today. We clarifies the point, Eaghtyrane. It is quite simple. One does have not got the document, it is not available to us, therefore not relate to the other and what I am suggesting is that the he is in conflict with standing orders because he cannot two then correspond. produce it to us. That is a wide example, but that is the sort of situation we have. I think we are getting really cut up Mr Crowe: Mr President, the actual words that I on this one. I will not be supporting that amendment, no seconded, and I wrote them down, were 'No document way. may be referred to which is not available to members.' That is exactly what I seconded. - The President: I will permit the hon. member a clarification point if she so desires. Mr Delaney: Yes. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T437

• Mr Crowe: The hon. member for Peel is now changing very well be revisited, as my hon. colleague Mr Lowey her amendment - has suggested. But I would ask this hon. Court not to accept the amendment which has just been put forward by the Mr Delaney: That is right. hon. member for Peel, because again twice she has referred to the word 'all' in this and, when it comes through in Members: Hear, hear. your final wording which has been agreed by her seconder, the word 'all' members has been taken away from that Mr Crowe: - so I would like your ruling on this, or the amendment and, if my hearing was correct, you said 'unless Attorney-General's ruling on this, as to what we are a copy is available to members.' Now that does not mean actually going to vote on. all members.

The President: Hon. member, you are saying to the The President: Mr Speaker, reply, sir? Chair that you have not seconded the amendment in this form, then of course the amendment is no longer before The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I was us. reasonably satisfied that I knew how I was going to respond until - (Laughter) Mrs Hannan: Could I...? In the - Mr Delaney: Do we have a copy of that? Members: Ooh! No! The Speaker: - my friend the hon. member for Rushen Mrs Hannan: In the writing of this by the Clerk a 'not' rose to speak. I will attempt to respond to the various issues got left out. Now I queried it with the Clerk whether the that have been raised, but I would preface my remarks by • `not' should be in. The 'not' was seconded by Mr Crowe. saying - and this point, as has been indicated, was made by the third member of the Standing Orders Committee, Mr Kermode: Then somebody should tie the 'not' the hon. Mr Lowey, when he spoke - that the committee, if tighter! you approve the motion, amended as it may be, will then meet to consider all the issues that have been raised at this debate. The President: I am prepared to give the hon. member Let me remind you and put all this into context. There and Mr Crowe three minutes to get together and clarify are 48 pages of detailed standing orders, and if we were to this situation. try and get everybody to agree to everything in those 48 pages before we passed any form of resolution we would Members: Hurray! (Interjections and laughter) never get anywhere, and that is, I believe, the true position. What there has to be is a bit of give and take, an acceptance Mr Luft: I wonder, Mr President, whilst we are waiting that the people that you have put in charge of looking at for this consultation if we could have in the reply by the these issues will re-examine the points that have been made hon. mover an explanation of the first part of the sentence: and will issue, as they have done in the past, reports on a `Unless it is of such a nature that publication would be from-time-to-time basis. Now, having said all that, I am inconsistent with the public interest, no document may be going to attempt to comment on the various issues that referred to. If it is inconsistent to the public interest it can have been raised. be referred to then. We need some explanation. First of all can I deal with the hon. member for Glenfaba - and these are not necessarily in any particular order - Mr Kermode: Arthur, move an amendment! who moved that the implementation of the standing orders, • assuming that they are accepted, should be effective as Mr Luft: I daren't! I may have misinterpreted it. There and from 29th March 1996 and that we should not wait may be an explanation. until the day after the House of Keys election in November 1996, and he asked 'Why the delay?' and he seemed to The President: The conclusion is that the wording relate it to a brief discussion that we had whilst we were which I quoted to the Court earlier is now acceptable to elsewhere an hour or so ago and inferred that my reasoning both mover and seconder, and that is that in standing order revolved around the needs of the new members. Well, that 3.23(7), after the words 'are referred to' substitute ' unless is not so. The reason why the committee decided to suggest a copy is available to members.' Now, I am going to call and recommend, as it has done, that the standing orders on the hon. Mr Speaker to reply. should remain as they are until after the general election is that every member of this hon. Court, whether they have Mr Kermode: This will be interesting! been a member for one year or 20 years or more, have been brought up on the existing standing orders, and we Mr Cringle: If I may, very briefly, Mr President, I think have not just made the odd little alteration here or there, we are really getting ourselves onto a bit of a hook on this we have made a radical revision of the totality of standing one (Members: Hear, hear.) and I think, if we are sensible, orders, and we felt, in view of the reasoning that I have it is in fact something which I would be quite happy as a just given you, that it seemed logical to defer the member of the committee leading Mr Speaker - and I have introduction until after the next House of Keys general no intention to really... I think it is a paragraph which could election. • Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received T438 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Mr Gilbey: We are not too old to change. was, what happens if you have six amendments, and this situation is very different in the Court of Tynwald from • The Speaker: Hon. member, you have had your that which exists in the House of Keys because the opportunity. (Members: Hear, hear.) functions of the two chambers are very different. Now, is that a fair summary of your argument, sir? Messrs Delaney and Quine: No right of reply! My colleague, the hon. member for Council, Mr Lowey, in supporting the status quo that there should be no right The President: Mr Speaker, proceed. of reply, said two things essentially: why should you be able to move an amendment and then get a second bite? The Speaker: And we would suggest that there is logic And secondly he said make your case when you move the in the reasoning that I have sought to explain to you. amendment. Now, on the understanding that the issues will Now, I would like to move to the amendment moved be looked at again the committee are firmly of the opinion by the Chief Minister, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr that the status quo - that is, that there should be no right of Walker. He said, quite properly, that of his proposed reply - should obtain, and that is the situation that we would amendments the first one is an oversight and the second recommend to you. In other words, we would recommend one was typographical. We have no problem there at all. that the amendment in the name of the hon. member for In the third one he wanted to delete the words 'acting in a Ayre should be opposed. governmental capacity.' I will accept it but I would say this: as he said in another place, it was said - and I saw the Mr Kermode: Not by me! same programme, sir - that where a member is making a personal statement that person, I believe, is heard in silence The Speaker: Now, if I could turn to the various other and there is no right of reply - no right to question, no points that we raised - and I think I will leave, for my own right of reply. A person makes a personal statement, the peace of mind, the hon. member for Castletown until a • House respects that and that is it. Now, this sort of situation little bit later - that I have attempted to briefly outline is not covered in this amendment, but what I am saying is that in accepting Mr Quine: Why not? his amendment the committee, if the totality of what we are seeking to do is approved, will then seek to look at this The Speaker: - can I start by referring to the hon. particular issue again, because we do believe that there member for Malew and Santon and say that it is my are and can be precedents created in other places which understanding that his understanding of the situation is need to be examined, there may well be reasoning as to correct, and if he looks, not at the particular section to why the practices they follow should be adopted by us. which he made reference but in fact to section 2.2, he will There may not. So as far as I am concerned, I am happy find, if he follows the intricacies of the various cross- with the support of my colleagues to support that references through, that the position as he understands it amendment with that slight reservation. is covered. Now could I move to the hon. member for Ayre? Now, can I also deal, before I turn to the hon. member for Castletown, to the hon. member for Michael, who in Mr Kermode: Why not? essence asks, is there anything in the standing orders that we have now got which prevents discussion outside this The Speaker: And could I say that within the Court on a matter which is going to come before this Court? committee, having reconsidered this matter as I indicated Again, this is an issue which I think the committee should when I presented the report at some length, I would have look at, but it is my understanding that there is nothing in to be right in saying that I was the person who had some standing orders which would prevent that situation. difficulty in supporting the form that is before you today - • that is, that no right of reply should exist. Having said that, Mr Kermode: Oh, thank goodness for that! the committee were unanimous at the end of the day, me having made my mark, as it were, that the way forward is The Speaker: So now let me turn to my friend from as indicated in the report. Now the reasons for and against Castletown, and I would say this: the one area which has have been well exercised, not only today but also when caused more difficulty than any other is the amendment we last had this matter before us in April 1995. The hon. 3.23(7), and the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Cringle, my member for Ayre proposes to add a right of reply to a colleague on the committee, has indicated that in essence member who has moved an amendment, and his argument, what he is saying is, it is difficult to come to a final as I understand it, could be crystallised around the phrase conclusion on an amendment of this importance 'on the `we need all the information that is available'. That is the hoof'. But what you should do is allow yourselves time to essence, I think, of what he said, and that line of reasoning examine the situation in a calm and collected manner and was supported by the hon. member for Douglas East but then come back to the House with a constructive and logical opposed by the hon. member for Castletown, who said in answer, and so what I am going to suggest to the Court is general terms - and forgive the way in which I summarise, that the existing 3.23(7) should be supported in the no matter how excellent it may be (Laughter) - he in effect knowledge that we will examine the amendment that was said there has really been no problem to date. That was proposed by the hon. member for Peel, which in essence one of the arguments advanced, and the other argument replaces all bar the first word on the third line with the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T439

words 'unless a copy is available to members.' That is the in mind the wider picture, and I would urge all members • amendment and the problem that I have got is that, for to support the committee on the basis that I have outlined. example, the hon. member for Rushen has said, what has Thank you, Mr President. happened to the word `all'? (Mrs Hannan interjecting) Now, I am just saying that that is the problem that has Mr Brown: Mr President, could I raise a point of order been posed. So on the basis of the argument that I am under standing order 98? seeking to advance that again we will look at this issue and report back as a Standing Orders Committee, we would The President: If you wish, sir. suggest to you at the moment that the amendment moved by the hon. member for Peel should not be supported. Mr Brown: Just really a point of order which I think is important in terms of the reference of the amendments Members: Hear, hear. where it states 'members' as against 'all members': in the actual standing orders report there is an interpretation and, The Speaker: Now, the last point that I want to refer to referring to what the member for Rushen said, it says - and I hope I have covered all the principal arguments - "member" means a member of Tynwald', so all members was a reference by the hon. member for Castletown to would be covered, sir. 3.4(8) I think, the rules as to framing questions on page 9, which reads as follows: 'Except in relation to the date on The President: The point is taken, sir. Hon. members, which a Committee expects to report a question shall not the resolution is set out at item 28 on the agenda paper. To refer to proceedings in a Committee, unless such that resolution we have four tabled amendments. I am going proceedings have been placed before Tynwald by a report to place the amendments before you in the order: Mrs from the Committee.', and the hon. member for Castletown Hannan's amendment, Mr Quine's amendment, Mr - I would accept the logic of his argument in that he has Walker's amendment and Mr Gilbey's amendment. As Mrs Hannan's amendment has not been circulated I been entirely consistent in his approach on this issue both will repeat what it is: last April and indeed today - no problem with that. I think that I have answered, or sought to answer, the point that For the words after 'referred to' substitute 'unless he makes in the opening remarks that I made and I think, a copy is available to members'. in all honesty, there is a stand-off: he has one opinion and the committee has another opinion (Members: Hear, hear.) Putting that amendment to you would you please and I think at the end of the day it must be open to the indicate, those in favour please say aye; against, no. The members of this Court to make a determination noes have it.

Mr Kermode: Pistols at dawn! A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

The Speaker: Now finally I would say this, Mr In the Keys - President: as the hon. member for Castletown - and we all know the keen interest that he takes in this issue of standing For: Messrs Gilbey, Rodan, Walker, Brown, Crowe, Mrs orders and the procedures within Tynwald, and indeed Hannan and Mr Gelling - 7 within the House of Keys - did say - and I think that this is true - that the committee has had a difficult job. Now, I Against: Messrs Cannan, Quine, North, Corrin, Cringle, want to express my thanks to my two colleagues for their May, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Kermode, Downie, input into the work of this committee and I would urge Bell, Groves, Karran, Corkill and the Speaker - 16 everybody, in the knowledge that we would accept the amendment in the name of the Chief Minister, to oppose The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys that the amendment in the name of the hon. member for Ayre amendment fails to carry with 7 votes in favour and 16 (Members: Hear, hear.) and not to support the amendment against. in the name of the hon. member for Peel (Members: Hear, hear.) In the Council -

Mrs Hannan: No! For: Messrs Barton, Waft, Luft and Mrs Christian - 4

The Speaker: And indeed not to support the amendment Against: Mr Lowey, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and in the name of the hon. member for Glenfaba. Delaney - 4

Members: Oh! The President: In the Council 4 votes are cast in favour and 4 against; the resolution therefore fails to carry. Mr Delaney: Is he not capable of changing it? We move on, then, to the amendment in the name of the hon. member for Ayre, circulated on the white paper in The Speaker: But I would wind up my remarks by your possession. Will those in favour of that amendment saying this - and I think this is quite important: remember standing part of the resolution please say aye; against, no. there are 48 pages of detailed standing orders. Please keep The noes have it. • Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald — First Report 1995-96 Received

T440 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Luft and Mrs Christian - 4 In the Keys - The President: In the Council 4 votes have been case For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, North, Corrin, in favour of the amendment, 4 against; my casting vote Cretney, Duggan, Kermode, Groves and Karran - 10 will go with the House of Keys, in favour. I will now put the resolution as now amended. Will those Against: Messrs Rodan, Walker, Cringle, Brown, May, in favour of the resolution as amended please say aye; Crowe Braidwood, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, against, no. the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 13

The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys that ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT amendment fails to carry with 10 votes in favour and 13 against. The President: Hon. members, I have to announce that Royal Assent has been given today to the Value Added In the Council - Tax Act and the Merchant Shipping Registration (Amendment) Act. For: Mr Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and Delaney - 4

Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Luft and Mrs Christian - 4 PROCEDURAL

The President: In the Council, hon. members, 4 votes Now, hon. members, the present standing orders require in favour of the amendment; 4 votes against the me to consult with you at this stage, a little early perhaps, amendment, the amendment fails to carry. about the progress of the business before us. I am going to Now, we move on to the next amendment, and that is suggest to you that if you have a little patience we might the amendment in the name of the hon. member for Rushen, well get through the remaining items. (Members: Hear, Mr Walker, again circulated to you on a white paper which hear.) If that is the wish of the House can we try for, say, is in your possession. Will those in favour of that 7.30? amendment standing part of the resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Members: Agreed. Now, the resolution, as amended, becomes a substantive motion - The President: Thank you.

Members: Mr Gilbey's amendment. MANX LANGUAGE — FUTURE The President: I know. It becomes a substantive motion DEVELOPMENT — REPORT RECEIVED and against that substantive motion I will now be putting the amendment in the name of the hon. member for The President: Right, item. 29 on the agenda paper. Glenfaba. Will those in favour of the amendment in the The Minister for Education. name of the hon. member for Glenfaba standing part of the resolution, as it now is, please say aye; against, no. Mr Cringle: Yes, thank you, Mr President, I beg to The noes have it. move:

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: That the Report 'The Future Development of the Manx Language' be received as requested at the sitting For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, North, Corrin, May, on 12th July 1995. Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Kermode, Karran and Corkill - 13 The hon. Court, I am sure, will be pleased to learn that I have got no intention of going through this report paragraph by paragraph, but before I do start, effectively, Against: Messrs Rodan, Walker, Cringle, Brown, Downie, Mr President, I would like to pay a very sincere tribute Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, Gelling and the indeed to the Department of Education people who drew Speaker - 10 up and prepared this report in its totality. I wish to say that as far as the report goes I have had no input whatsoever. The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys that The report has come as a result of the excellent work done amendment carries with 13 votes in favour and 10 against. by the previous Minister for Education, Mrs Hannan, and her department, and I pay full tribute to that department In the Council - and to Mrs Hannan in particular for her leadership in this particular regard. It gives me considerable pleasure to be For: Mr Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Radcliffe and Delaney - 4 able to say that, because it is sincerely and properly meant,

Announcement of Royal Assent Procedural Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T441

and I know that the authors of the report, I am sure, equally progressed. Members may worry and may wish to consider • would express, as far as I am concerned, the regard for the the cash element commitment, and right on the very back drive which has been had in the furtherance of the of the report, in appendix C, it gives a total for the development of the Manx language by the previous implementation of £259,000 over the period 1996 to the Minister for Education. year 2001. Realistically it can be argued that that is less I would equally say that it is very seldom that a report than £1 per head of population per year in additional reaches Tynwald that is so focused in its purpose and expenditure, but yes, there is an ongoing cost and I would direction, and this report is unquestionably focused in both not want to give the impression that there would not be purpose and direction. It spells out not only the reason for additional ongoing costs. Priorities in any department are developing the Manx language, but in easy stages points always hard to finalise, and that, I am sure, is equally true the way in which a better understanding can be reached in the Department of Education. We all want our children for future generations. Seldom does a parliamentary to have the best rounded education that we can possibly assembly get the opportunity to express its wish to further affords The department needs the flexibility to judge the the culture of a nation in a better way than Tynwald Court implementation of this report alongside its other needs. does today. The document itself is unquestionably an excellent The report that I have the privilege of presenting to this blueprint for the future of the development of the Manx hon. Court today is very easily read. Members will, I have language. Much has been achieved, and I again pay tribute got no doubt at all, have noted quite early on that it starts to that. How many of this assembled gathering, for with the main and general recommendations and concludes example, know that in regular meetings throughout the with a summary of conclusions and recommendations. That Isle of Man, for example in my own village of Ballabeg, means that if you turn to the front or turn to the back you every Monday night I can count up to 50 cars parked were not going to miss the point; it is there for you. outside the Ballabeg Sunday School, where people are in • However, let us consider what is the meat within the at Manx classes? The Braaid cottage is used on four nights sandwich of the conclusions and recommendations. We a week for the Manx language. There is a highly active have an excellent history of the language at paragraph 4, class in Kirk Michael which goes on on a regular basis. followed by the rationale for the studying of Manx at The Department of Education has its night school classes. paragraph 5, and then, split into numerous subsections, These others are put on by those enthusiasts out there who paragraphs 6 and 7 of this document deal with those matters are fulfilling their dream of the development of the Manx that are felt to be either involving government or the private language. Much has been achieved and, judged against organisations - outside bodies if that is how you wish to the commencement of the exercise of the developing of refer to them. the Manx language, it is and it would be a highly I started by saying that I was, in opening the debate, not complimentary school report. going to go through all the sections and I have no intention It is the intent of the department to continue the good of doing so; however. if members of this hon. Court at this work. I would say that it would be important that the ball stage will turn to paragraph 6.14, which covers the use of should be kept moving, that we should keep to roll on. Manx in the community, I would like to point out to them The good work must be built on and accordingly we must that while the report says the Department of Local consider where it comes within its priorities, in fact Government and the Environment should take the initiative establishing those priorities in accord with government in place names, it is a statutory duty now under various policy and with regard to the overall expenditure of Local Government Acts, and there is a statutory duty on government. I have very great pleasure in proposing the local authorities currently, and it is also fair to mention the motion on the Tynwald agenda paper this evening. Manx National Heritage in relation to paragraph 16 for • the good work that they have carried out in their support Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. of Manx literature. Coming up to date in a modern technological world, the comment in paragraph 7.6 that Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say that I the use of Manx being used in television broadcasts should am delighted with the speech from the hon. mover of this continue to be investigated could very well have had the motion today. If it is so good, then surely we should be not words 'and promoted' added. So in my comments on those just receiving this motion today, and many of the points in three paragraphs alone, I am pointing out to this hon. Court the display that was up in the Millennium Room and many what could be seen to be, you may argue, almost of the issues, like the issues that the hon. mover today is deficiencies in the report, but they are comparatively minor talking about, have been led by charity. It was charity that but necessary to be picked up upon, particularly in relation put the money up for the tapes for the kids for the schools. to statutory duties. There were cash donations for the books for the schools. It is an excellent report, as I have said, in its direction. Ninety per cent of it, an awful lot of it, has been done by It is clear and it is concise, and members may wish to charity and, whilst I agree with the point that everybody comment on those individual sections, but in the round should work together, when I go into my speech, you will you will have to admit that the report is sound and very see that obviously there are things that charity cannot well thought out. Certainly, it would not be my wish, as provide, and one of the fundamental issues that this report Minister for Education, to see that this particular report looks at is the issue that every child in every Manx school was parked on a shelf and left. It would be the intent to see should have the opportunity to learn Manx, and that is that the recommendations were, when practical, something that we cannot provide, neither Caarjyn ny • Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received T442 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

Gaelgey, Yn Cheshaght Ghailckagh or the Ballabeg School, revolutionary. We have recently seen the results of the Kirk Michael School. We have not got the resources to representations from children who have been brought up • do that, and I believe that that is the one point in the mover's to speak Manx as their first language and who wanted the thing that falls down: We have not got those resources, Department of Education to give them a half-day a week and rightly, if we are a civilised community, it should not Gaelic-medium education class. They were told that there be expected to be done by charity. was no money available, no resources, and so once again we are seeing them have to use the same unsuitable For the words after "received" substitute "and accommodation - which more likely breaks our laws its recommendations adopted". anyway, just like the Gaelic play group is having to do. Quite honestly I do not believe this is something that we Eaghtyrane, I move this amendment: If this Court only in this hon. House should be proud of. receives this report, then none of the major issues will be I could go on longer as far as the moral arguments are addressed. It will be seen as a green light to carry on with concerned, but I believe the argument has been well argued the disgraceful way the Manx language has been treated by myself and hopefully by many others in this hon. Court within our school system by a section within the in the near future. In an article in 'The New Scientist' of Department of Education. If you receive this report, then 6th January 1996 the author wrote that a third of the world's we go back to the days of trying to make it as awkward as languages are in danger of imminent extinction, and for possible for those who want to learn the linguistic heritage. every one that dies a whole culture and a whole way of What is the big problem, hon. members, with this report? thinking may be lost for ever. The Manx language is an The reality is, there is only one issue of any consequence: asset, and the sooner we wake up to the fact and not see it that is the issue in 3.1, that in September 1996 there will as a liability and get away from this feeling of inferiority be a one-sixth of a teacher increase; in April 1997 there the better. The language is in a very precarious state, no will be a 2.7 increase in teachers; in April 1998 there will matter how much we try to push it at the present time, and • be another two teachers; in April 1999 there will be another without the support that it should be able to expect from a two teachers, and in April 2000 there will be a further two modern democracy there is a great danger that it could teachers. We have come up with a compromise because die. People are just waking up in this Island to what many we understand the problems of staffing. This report should other countries have seen as an important asset of their be implemented, but not in a year, not in two years, but nationhood. The language is not just a social or a financial over five years - an issue that should have been done not asset - I go to a place on the southern tip of Skye, where it in 1996 but should have been done in 1946, 50 years ago. is the major contributor to their economic base. They have Remember, hon. members, this report has been watered a language school there; they see the importance of that - down from what the director was suggesting was the but will almost certainly become a political asset in years minimum that should be done if we were to do the job to come, when interference from our larger neighbours may properly. come along. There may not be votes in it, but you will do What is being asked in this report is not even a quarter such a disservice to the whole community if we lose what of what this section of our community would receive if we could be lost, and it would be lost for ever. The policy of were an EU country. Manx speakers would be better off indifference on linguistic genocide is not the policy of a sending one MP to Westminster. Isn't that a disgrace? It mature nation. speaks volumes about our lack of self-esteem as a The other issue that we will hear a lot about is the cost legislature. This policy of linguistic genocide is just what implications, and I would suggest that you go and speak you would expect, not from a mature democracy but from to any teacher in any Manx school about the amounts of the actions of a glorified county council of England. If we money that were wasted in trying to bring in the English are not only wanting to be a nation but a modern national curriculum to the detriment of good educational democracy, then there are responsibilities on us, and the principles for our children, as many people within the • responsibilities are that the majority have a responsibility educational circles will tell you. Before you start talking to the minority as well, and I hope that members will realise about the meagre pittance that you already give at the that they have a social responsibility, and if hon. members present time, go and find out about the quarter to half a realise that they have a social responsibility and regard million pounds that was wasted on bringing in the national themselves as members who believe in justice and fair play, curriculum from the UK prematurely. they will support my amendment. The issue has far more implications than I want to or If you want the Manx speaking community not to feel am prepared to go into in this debate today. That is why I divorced from our government - and this is my government went to see the Chief Minister last week, because I want as well - then give them the same treatment as every other to see a free vote in the Council of Ministers. If my section of our community which loses out from not being amendment was to be accepted it would in no way be a • part of the EU. Why cannot the Manx speakers expect the no-confidence vote in the Council of Ministers; that is the same treatment as any other section within our community? simple fact of the matter at the present time. I do hope that What is the main recommendation of this report? It is yn Ardshirveishagh - the Chief Minister - will tell the hon. not forcing people to learn Manx. It is essentially a simple Court that the Council of Ministers will have a free vote, principle that every child in every Manx school has a right whether to receive this report or to accept and adopt the to expect the services of a teacher to teach the Manx recommendations. I hope common sense will prevail and language. Is that revolutionary? Nowhere else would it be justice will prevail and we will start acting like a modern Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T443

democratic state and look after all our people, Eaghtyrane. the teaching of Manx in schools where it is being done, • This section of our community have been so shoddily we have to remember, on a voluntary basis, and is it not treated in the past; let us show to the world that we do encouraging that there are more young people seeking to accept our responsibilities to the minorities within our learn to speak Manx than we can actually cater for and society and adopt the recommendations of this report. If provide for in the schools? If there were any other subject you do not, the truth is little or nothing will be done of any that was being demanded and the demand was not being consequence about this report. met, I am quite sure we would be under pressure to make I have been told today that the Manx signs as far as provision to provide for those children, whose enthusiasm Rheynn Ynasee, the Department of Education, is concerned could well be dampened if they are on a stop-start sort of have been taken down. That shows great confidence for conveyor belt where you can do Manx for a couple of years the future. As I have already stated in my debate, the report but cannot proceed after that until there is an opportunity essentially has a simple principle that would be accepted somewhere along the line to have some further funding. if we were in a EU country. If it was any other section of One aspect of the report which I did find a little the community that loses out because of our non- disappointing was that in some of the secondary schools membership of the EU you would get the support. The the attitude seems to be a little less supportive than it might simple principle of this report covers that every child in be towards the teaching of Manx and making provision every Manx school has a right to expect the services of a teacher to teach them the Manx language - not tomorrow, for youngsters to learn Manx in school. This, I think, is an but over the next five years. Can this hon. Court not go indicator that we should note, because it is symptomatic with the amendment that I propose today if it believes and of the fact that in those schools there are many teachers it has a self-esteem in its own national identity? I beg to who have no Manx background at all, perhaps not much move my amendment, Eaghtyrane. feeling for any kind of Manx cultural heritage and, if that • progresses and is not stopped, then we are going to have Mr Rodan: Mr President, I rise to second and reserve more and more of a battle to generate the enthusiasms and, my remarks. however we may feel about it, policy does not necessarily win over the teachers who are in the schools and have their Mrs Christian: Mr President, whilst listening to the own particular subjects to promote, but still I think that it hon. member, Mr Karran, I have great sympathy with much would give the department a strengthened platform from of what he said and I would like to feel, perhaps, that the which to work if we can at least adopt some of the Court would be sympathetic to his amendment. However, proposals. In that way I hope that we may be able to if they are not, I would much prefer to see a half-way post generate, in the popular phrase of the day, a little more reached than to simply receive the report, as is in the `ownership' in some of the secondary schools with the resolution on the agenda. development of the language. I was pleased to hear the hon. minister say that he is not I would not suggest that in proposing we adopt a part of going to have a no-parking statement attached to this report, the recommendations in the report the other but if that is to be the case he is going to need some fuel to recommendations are any less important, nor would I imply keep the thing moving and I believe that today we should that. Nor do I suggest that they should be ignored. I think be making a bit more of a commitment to the report than that they can be worked upon at the same time. Some will simply to say it should be received and take its chance on naturally flow from the recommendations that I am that basis along with all the other demands of the suggesting, in that it will be necessary for more teachers Department of Education when it comes to financing all to be trained in order to complete the programme through their activities. • the academic career of the young people, so that will follow I do believe that if we were, in the terms of my as a consequence, but in order that we do not overload the resolution, at least to adopt the recommendations set out department with the whole of these recommendations in paragraph 6.3.1, which relates to the opportunity for learning the Manx language being available in schools and through the hon. member Mr Karran's recommendation, I a continuous development of courses be provided so that would ask members perhaps to support in the first instance young people can start and know that they are going to be my amendment. I do this, having just read that we have able to continue with Manx throughout their school career. passed standing orders which insist that we speak English That is something at least that we could positively deal in this Court, which is slightly ironical! I know it is a with today. continuation of what went before, but perhaps in future There are many other recommendations in the report we will be more liberal about that, though I must say I which are to be applauded and should be supported, but I have perhaps a challenge myself in learning a little more am a little concerned that, for example, where we might than the smattering of Manx that I know at the moment. be talking about teaching through the medium of Manx I do hope that people will not be overwhelmed by the and eventually developing Manx schools, we should very many recommendations in the report, but will make perhaps be walking before we can run, and that we could a commitment to at least backing specifically the school make a commitment to these first early steps and develop programme and, by so doing, send out a message to the a sound base for the language through schools. department and the Treasury and the Council of Ministers (Interjection) Members have not yet spoken very much that we do not want this one simply to be shelved. I beg to on the subject, but I would hope that no-one will criticise move:

4110 Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received T444 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

For the words after "received" substitute "and its I think that when this resolution was originally proposed short-term recommendations, set out in paragraph 6.3.1, there was a bit of scepticism within the Court as to what • adopted" we were going to end up with, and I think that that we should say 'Well, what are we now going to have?' I think Mr Crowe: Mr President, as a member of the this report clearly identifies the history side of it, which I Department of Education I have been fully involved in the am sure many did not really know, and I can say I did not production of this report and have attended all meetings in and I have to say I am of a generation who regrets that the department which considered this submission. The when we were at school we were not told much about the report follows the decision by Tynwald in July to pass a Manx way of life. Maybe that is because I lived in the motion from which I quote 'That, recognising the town and I did not live out in the country and go to a very importance of Manx Gaelic as a part of the heritage of the small school. So I think that that is something that I would Isle of Man, the Department of Education report, by the say I was disappointed at - that we did not have that December 1995 sitting, on the future development of the opportunity when I was at school. language.' What I want to emphasise here is that Tynwald I do think we should also recognise, though, that we has already recognised the importance of Manx Gaelic as have come a long way in the last about 15 years or so in part of our heritage. terms of progressing Manx signage, using Manx more I also want at this stage to place on record my through different departments, by in fact departments appreciation for the efforts of the staff of the department, recognising Manx and so on; there is a long way to go yet who have been involved in compiling and producing this in doing that, and we do know that there has been a very comprehensive and enlightening report. I also want significant interest in the Manx language over, I suppose to state that I applaud those people in the Island who are it is about 10 or 15 years anyway, something like that, learning Manx and those who are teaching it. The Manx than maybe anyone could have envisaged. So the language, as we are all aware, is part of our culture and development of the language is happening, and I accept identity and I hope that it remains so. • the point Mr Karran said that it may be very slow and it is The report states clearly that the Manx language, having relying on voluntary work and so on, and I think we have been repressed, is now finding a place in the hearts and to accept that you have got to get the young children, if minds of more people. The general recommendation in you are going to progress it in a way that we wish, maybe, the report is that government should continue to support or some of us wish, to see it progressed. So I do not have and encourage the demand for the Manx language, working any problem at all with the report. I fully support it and I in partnership with the relevant Manx language societies support the past minister who progressed it and of course and groups. I see this as the key to the future of the Manx the new minister, and I think the commitment given by the language - a partnership arrangement which helps both government and those societies and groups. I am sure the new minister is fine and he has been very clear on that. people interested in learning the Manx language will I suspect, though, the concern that has been expressed continue to grow in numbers and will get the support that by both Mr Karran and Mrs Christian is because we, in the they deserve from government and the department. resolution, have used the term 'received' and the usual I believe that we have to recognise the resilience of the term for received of a report is that it is received and Manx character, and I hope this resilience will always be everybody goes away and forgets about it, (Mr Karran: there and that the partnership of government and special Hear, hear.) and I suspect that that is the concern that interest groups and societies will ensure that the Manx members have on this. I think that would be unfortunate if language is encouraged and remains a strong part of our that was the case. We have heard the minister quite clearly culture, heritage and identity. The resilience of the Manx say that in fact that is not the case as far as he is concerned; character is the reason why, over the last few hundreds of he wishes to progress it. And I suppose we have to say - years, the Isle of Man has been through good times and and I certainly do, I accept that fully, because I am one bad times. The Island has changed in the recent past from who backs him one hundred per cent to say we have to • traditional industries to become a leader in world markets progress this matter or that whole report and the input from in providing innovative financial services and with many individuals will have been a waste of time, and I think that new jobs for the Island. We must always recognise change, would be most unfortunate. So I do not see any lack of accept change and adapt to change. Education has a commitment there from the minister through his responsibility to provide the educational needs of our department to progress the matter. I suppose it is just purely people to equip them for the jobs that are necessary to the concern of some members of the Court as to whether it support the Island's economy. However, I do not see a will actually happen, and I can understand that. conflict between our attempts to improve the Island's I would be interested, I think, as other members would, position in world markets whilst at the same time retaining if the minister is in a position to maybe respond in detail a our identity and culture, and this includes support for the bit more, maybe to put members' minds at ease as to how Manx language. he hopes to progress the recommendations in terms of the I support the recommendations in the report and I budget, and of course we all know the priorities within support and second Mrs Christian's amendment. Thank any department and the resources total, and I certainly you, Mr President. would say we do not want to be in a position, I am sure, where the excuse for the Manx language against other items Mr Brown: Mr President, I would just like to add my is, 'We cannot afford it.' We all know it is easy to always support and say how much I welcome this report, because say 'We cannot afford it' on any item and I do not think Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T445

that is the case in this question. I think there is a genuine that we will not have to face, not with the thoughts that • commitment to progress this matter and it is a matter of abound in the Isle of Man today, and I would like to how we progress it. Is it practical in these terms? Even congratulate my colleague from Onchan and I will be accepting the recommendations there, we all know that supporting his resolution. We have an opportunity, there can be slippage or change in circumstances that could members, here today to give wholehearted support. affect that, and I just make the point, I think it may be There is a concern of mine with regard to receiving helpful to everybody, if the minister can, to just clarify reports, and the member for Castletown has pointed out that aspect of it, because I just get a feeling there is a little there is a thought amongst members that that will be the bit of concern in the Court that nothing will happen if the last we have heard of it, but I am sure the minister will resolution as written is adopted. I think that is not the case, take this on board and he will support it anyway and will but I think it would be helpful if maybe the minister could give every support that he can as it comes re-emphasise that more in his answer, because I do think it But the question is urgent. The people of the Isle of is an important factor. Man need to know they have government support behind them. They need to know that all the departments of Mr Waft: Mr President, Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. government are working wholeheartedly in their own little (Interjections) I think we have all heard when we get on ways to support the Manx language and the Manx culture. the Manx Airlines when they say `Fastyr mie, vraane as I would support Mr Karran's amendment. Thank you, sir. gheiney seyrey'. I think that is excellent. I think everybody has a little bit of pride when they hear that, because they Mr Walker: Mr President, I rise to support the do not hear it very often. I was a product of St George's resolution and I would recommend to hon. members that Sunday School and there was no Manx there. There was they approve the resolution as it is printed on the agenda certainly none in Tynwald Street School. There was paper. • certainly none in Demesne Road School or Ballakermeen I think it is easy to underestimate what has happened School or the High School, and I only thank God that there over the last few years as regards teaching Manx in schools. is a renaissance taking place now in the Department of I do not think we have got anything to be ashamed of at Education of getting a hold of the problem and they ought all; in fact, I think the Department of Education and Mrs to be congratulated by every member of the Court. Hannan, when she was minister, have a great deal to be I particularly would like to congratulate Brian Stowell proud of. I think she has driven this cause forward with and the work he has put into it wholeheartedly, and for his the assistance of many other individuals in the community, demonstration today up in the Millennium Room. I and I certainly recognise that it is not something that particularly would like to mention Adrian Pilgrim and the happens in isolation. A lot of support is needed. help he has given to all members when they have sought I do not accept comments like 'the disgraceful way that advice on anything Manx. The Hansard Clerk is always we have been working on this over the last few years', or there to advise, he has got a wealth of knowledge on the `shabbily treated', I think, was another remark that was Manx language, and I would like to congratulate both those made. I have to say I do not accept those at all. I am very two gentlemen on the work and help that they have given pleased about the way the Department of Education has to the members and the community. set about the task, supported by those people outside and It was excellent to see last night on BBC television the supported by the parents and so many teachers who are Manx children being taught in the schools, and I think proud, I suppose, to allow their children to be taught some everybody would applaud that the BBC has given us a Manx. I am of, I suppose, the generation that Mr Waft is little bit of time anyway, with regard especially to our of - well, almost, (Laughter) and apart from the occasional licence fees and the money we pay over to them, to show enthusiast who happened to be a teacher in one of the Manx children being taught in the schools. schools, there was no Manx taught, and I think that that is • I would just like to mention the nurse training school a sadness, when I reflect on it. I do not think we are ever now, we have lost our nurse training school and we now going to go down that path away, whether or not this get nurses from the UK and Scotland and Ireland, and it is resolution is simply received, as I believe it ought to be, not unusual to go into a ward - and I have done it myself - and I believe then that we have to leave the enthusiasm of and I find that Irish girls have been talking on the phone in the minister and his colleagues and those that are involved Irish Gaelic and it is quite acceptable, but you never hear to drive this forward. I see a great difficulty in asking for anybody talking Manx on the telephone, but that is a point this report to be adopted. To say now that in some years' that we might be considering, the way we are going. time we shall appoint nine more teachers, not knowing With regard to the language dying I would just like to what the other requirements will be in the educational field mention a small cutting from The Times of yesterday. It - I have a problem with that. I would love to say, 'Yes, do was a headline that said 'Language Dies with a Tribal Elder. it, let us adopt it', but then I know people will be let down A senior member of the Catawba tribe has died, taking if you are unable to accomplish that because of either the with him the language of his people. Red Thunder Cloud, financial situation or other responsibilities, and so on. who was 76, will be buried in Massachusetts today. He I have a concern, sir, that if we were to adopt the report used the language daily to say his prayers, although only we may not be able to fulfil the wishes that are in there. I his dog understood him at the end. There are only about would prefer that we receive the report. We should not be 108 of American languages that are still in use.' So that is ashamed of what is happening; we should be proud of it. a point I think we should bear in mind. That is the problem We should encourage more of it happening, we should

• Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received T446 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 encourage those people who are involved and we should A Member: Was it official? encourage the department to continue the good work that they are undoubtedly doing and have done, and I think Mr Karran: It officially came out. There was a situation that that is the way forward. where teachers were telling the totally discouraged kids from leaving classes to go and do their Manx. These are Mr Corrin: Mr President, I would very much like to the things that were happening in our schools. I think that support the words just spoken by the Chief Minister. I think is in the past. I want a sensible compromise. I believe that that he has put his finger, really, on a responsible way that is why we went for a five-year programme. forward. I hope that when my colleague mover comes down The member for Rushen talked about the priorities. Well, out of the clouds he lands on his feet and not his head, if we are a modern democratic state we have because what the Chief Minister has effectively said is that, responsibilities - whilst we support this move forward in the Manx language area, there are other responsibilities that have to be taken Mr Lowey and Mr Delaney: A point of order, Mr care of too. President.

Mr Cringle: Quite right. The President: Your point of order is what, sir?

Mr Corrin: We are aware of those responsibilities. It Mr Lowey: Is the hon. member - was only a couple of months ago there was forceful concern expressed on supporting our students at college, and that Mr Delaney: He is not speaking to the amendment. bill is going to increase substantially. I am the chairman of a committee looking at persons who have an area of Mr Lowey: That is right. disability, and there are concerns there. Now, I am not saying that I am against this at all, neither did the Chief Mr Delaney: He has not mentioned the amendment. Minister, but what I think he was proposing was a way forward of 'steady the ship goes', effectively. I would like The President: I assume the member is coming to the to hear the Treasury Minister's view on this, because he, amendment. office holder as he is now, he will have to find the money in the future as well as other growing demands. So, yes, Mr Karran: Certainly, Eaghtyrane. (Laughter) The whilst we would all support the way forward - and I think amendment at least shows that what we have... we have it is as others have said, those who are in the field of heard from the hon. member for Rushen; he expects that promoting Manx and teaching and so on and the interest the farmers should not lose out on their hill sheep subsidy that has been created are to be congratulated on that let us because we are not part of the EU or anything else and go forward in a steady manner and, by receiving it, that that agricultural industry has that safeguard. Why cannot allows that to be done by consideration, because the way the kids expect the same safeguard as far as Manx is forward has to be responsibly charted, taking into account concerned? If they were in the EU they would accept this. other areas. Inevitably it costs money, and when it will be The seconder who seconded the amendment that came from possible to implement what has been suggested, it may the hon. member for Council mentioned the point about well be that it will be over a 10-year period. It may well be the finance sector. Well, this section of our society does that. It can be achieved in the end, but it is very difficult, I feel divorced from the rest of our society with regard to think, if you are going to tie government down with all the the government because at the moment we do, as the other financial demands, and I think the way forward is to majority, benefit from having a tax haven, because we bear in mind that representation can always be made after know that that is the backbone of our economy. If we were in the future based upon this report to see 'Can we now go part of the EU, which we cannot be because of the forward in this area' or 'that area' or 'the other area?' It harmonisation of taxes, then that would destroy our can always be done, but I really do think that for the purpose economy, and I totally agree with the policy of having a of acknowledging this report as on our order paper today, finance sector, as the seconder of the amendment was that is the responsible way forward. intimating, because I have had many heated debates and I do not want to go back to spuds and herring, especially Mr Karran: Can I speak to the hon. member's two-headed ones, courtesy of British Nuclear Fuels! But amendment, Eaghtyrane? I would just like to make a few at the end of the day you accept a principle; you say you points, one is about the Ardshirveishagh. He says that he want your finance sector and we all want a finance sector. is rather upset about my input into this and what emotive Every other section of the community who loses out words I used. I could have used a lot more but I would just because of our none membership of the EU can expect it - say some of the things that were happening. One week the kids were supposed to go to the east building at Ramsey Mr Duggan: That has nothing to do with it. Grammar School. The next week they were in the west building, a different class. The following week they were Mr Karran: - and I believe - back in the east building, but in a different room. There were letters put out telling parents that it would be to the The President: Hon. member, I have to note that you detriment of their kids if they were to let their kids go and have to come closer to the amendment. Your remarks are do Manx. There was - being distinctly wide up to now.

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Mr Karran: I would say that I believe that the tend to get mixed up, but I would just like, before I • amendment of the hon. member for Council is at least a comment on the report as a whole, to make that quite clear. compromise. It basically does look at a fundamental I consider this to be a modest report and, in stating that, principle that should be accepted. If we are a mature I think that the impetus for this report, as the member for democracy and we believe that we want to develop a Middle has stated, came from the appointment of Brian mature democracy, we have responsibilities and we should Stowell and that initiative was by the Department of treat all our sections of our community equally and fairly Education, the Manx Heritage Foundation and the Manx and I believe there has been a disservice, and I do hope Museum and National Trust, and it was at a time when that, if members cannot support my amendment, they Brian Stowell could be induced to come back, and the should at least go and try and show that there is some progress that has been made within the department and tolerance within this hon. Court. Remember I said that the within the community as a whole has been greater for his amendment of the hon. member for Council is not as far involvement, and therefore I see the commitment of these as my own, but even today I am told that the signs of three areas as being very important. But the funding was Rheynn Ynsee that have been put up within the Department from the Manx Heritage Foundation for those two years, of Education (which is the Manx equivalent for the with the two teachers being funded by the Department of Department of Education) have been taken down and you Education. That came about through the Quality of Life are just going to say 'Receive this report.' Well, I think Survey, where it stated that there was a lot of support for you would be better not receiving the report. If you cannot children to be taught the Manx language, and it is safe to go with my amendment and you cannot go with the hon. say that the Department of Education was overwhelmed member of Council's amendment, then be honest with the by the support that came from school pupils and their people outside and tell them that you have got no tolerance parents, and it was as a result of that the department was as far as the linguistic heritage of this Island is concerned. not able to fulfil their wishes, there was not enough • teachers, and this report, when I said it was modest, is Mr North: Mr President, could I just say very briefly modest. It will only satisfy the demands that are available that the Manx language, everybody in this Court, I am and that are there at the moment, and it will also satisfy sure, will agree, in the last few years is, to use an the demands of good educational practice - that is, the expression, 'on the roll' and there is no doubt at all in my course must be continuous, it must allow progression to mind that it is thanks to the enthusiasm of the previous be made by the learner and it must allow sufficient time Minister for Education and the hon. member for Onchan for worthwhile learning, and the acceptance of this report and many others, the fact that they got the right man in, by the department will be that this will be progressed. Brian Stowell, when they did - that was the key to it - it is I agree with the Chief Minister that there has been a down to people and I can remember as a youngster, over great deal of progress made within the last few years of 40 years ago, being an active member of Ellynyn ny Gael, the teaching of the language. The member Mr Karran, when when we had one person - and Mr President will remember he was speaking, suggested that modest suggestions have - Mona Douglas, and if we had not had her, lots of things been made to the department about Gaelic-medium would have died. It was active and then it did fade, and it teaching for half a day, this was not possible and therefore needs enthusiasm, that is what is required, and we have charity would have to continue in substandard areas, but got that enthusiasm. We have got that enthusiasm, in my this report quite clearly says that Yn Ynnyd Chengey is opinion, in the new minister. There is no doubt about that, available and can be used for the teaching of Manx. It has and if we just allow the language to progress and the not been to date, but it can be. It was supported by enthusiasm for it to continue, I am sure the support will be charitable... and by the department and it can be used for there. If you try and pin it down, as the hon. member for all children, so there are places that are available. • Onchan is trying to do, too carefully, then you will run I would agree that government cannot and should not into problems. be expected to do everything to promote the language. If I am sure this hon. Court will support it in the future government takes over everything, then I suggest that and, if it does not, then I fully expect him to come back maybe it is the language itself that will suffer, so I would and start pulling us up and saying `0i, you are letting it hope that the community, as in this report, will continue in slip.' the way that it is doing at the moment with thorough enthusiasm for the language and for Manx culture in Mr Karran: I am already doing that. general. Mr Braidwood, Mr Rodan and myself, when we visited Mrs Hannan: Can I just make a brief comment, Ireland, actually visited an Irish school, which was Eaghtyrane? I would like to congratulate the Minister for inspirational and quite moving - small children speaking Education in his opening remarks. I found them to be very their language, also encouraging their parents, because not constructive, but in that, although I was involved in this all parents had the Irish language. This school was over- report, I would ask for an amendment to this report on subscribed, 460 pupils on the roll; children were being page 8 where it states in 6.1.1 that the Manx Language enrolled for the year 2000. So there is a lot of support in Officer, Brian Stowell, was funded by Manx National many of our Celtic neighbours for the Gaelic language. Heritage for two years. That is incorrect. The Manx There were comments made, too, during this debate Language Officer was funded by the Manx Heritage about the finance sector, but there is support from the Foundation for two years. I know these two organisations finance sector for the language from the Allied Irish Banks, • Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received T448 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 from Conister Trust, who recently supported with a trophy. virtually apply this report to several other departments in Allied Irish Banks support newly written language books. government who have a similar claim. We have heard from • In support of this report I would just comment that when the hon. member for Council, Mrs Christian, today - an we first started teaching language in our schools many older excellent speech, very good sentiments, but her department, people expressed to me, in the same way as Mr Waft and I understand, requires social workers. It was only a couple the Chief Minister, yn Ardshirveishagh, has expressed of weeks ago that we heard a plea here for more policemen during this debate, that they wished they had learned the on the Isle of Man; we wanted to beef up the drug squad. language and they applauded the progress being made by There are all sorts of other areas within government where government in supporting the language, because obviously, there are large amounts of money requiring, just as urgently learning the language when you are young, it is easier, as this, to be expended. you are at school, you are involved with your friends, you Now, hon. members, I fully support the document that are involved with education, and parents support that and is before us and in fact I will be voting to go along with they want a thorough teaching of Manx language education. the department. I have every confidence that the new I too would agree with the member for Middle when he minister, if funds are available, will do his utmost to said that people are important, and there are a great many introduce elements of this as and when he can. It is a people within the Manx language speaking community difficult decision but at the same time I think we must who are very supportive and I believe that there should be accept that right across the board all government more recordings taken of these people while it is possible departments are in a similar situation and nobody really to do that. I know the Manx Museum has been involved in would have the right to turn round and say, 'I want to be recording native speakers and that translation work is still guaranteed nine new posts in the next five years.' I think ongoing and their interest in the language is great, but I that is something that we have to wait and see and let the believe it could be more. So I think individuals are department make its case as well as all the other important to the future of the language and all the people departments in government who are equally anxious to • that are involved. provide a better level of service and increase their staffing I would also like to thank the people that commented to levels. So with that, Mr President, I would just urge the Department of Education in the compilation of this members to support the report and recommendations of report - many lengthy and thoughtful submissions; two the minister. were against, 65 were in favour. Some were in Manx - very thoughtful submissions, very committed to the The President: The minister to reply. language at many different levels. I do acknowledge Mr Karran's part in moving the initial Mr Cringle: Yes, Mr President, there is no question in resolution. He might say that we have not progressed very my mind at all that the sympathy is within this hon. Court far and we have had, he will agree with me, many for the development of the Manx language. I do not differences of opinion in the department from time to time, question that for one moment, and it, if nothing else, has even in the compilation of this report. come across quite forcibly during the debate from I would like to thank Mr Crowe for moving the practically every speaker who has risen to their feet. The amendment to take this resolution to the Department of sympathy is unquestioned; it is there. Education so that the Education Department could give Now, the hon. member, Mr Brown, was particular in consideration to the wider aspects of the language, and to his comments. Whilst other members have made general Mr Cringle, the Minister for Education for placing the comments he was particular in asking that, whilst agreeing report before the Court. that we have come a long way forward, could I give some I would urge hon. members to support this report and commitment to the future out of this report, and I can do for it to be implemented, and I have faith in the Department no better in my commitment to this report than again steal of Education, Rheynn Ynsee, to implement the report as some of the words which the previous minister has just • written, and I leave it in their caring hands and look forward used in her speech, and I would ask this hon. Court to just to the whole of this report being implemented as stated in again reflect for a little bit on that particular measure, the report. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. because Mr Brown was asking me if I would put some commitment there, and Mrs Hannan in her comments was Mr Downie: Mr President, hon. members, I would just really telling you that what is important in the development like to thank, or compliment, the previous speaker. I think of the Manx language is the progression in learning and that she is first of all to be congratulated on the amount of worthwhile learning, and in educational terms I could not work that she has done with regard to the compilation of put it better myself. There must be, in other words, a this report and its progression through the system and, at continuation - the 'stop - go' is no good - and that learning the end of it, she has acknowledged that there are cost must be worthwhile, it must be beneficial. Those two points implications involved and, if it is affordable, well, I am I am perfectly prepared to carry forward as the flagship of sure that the new minister will find a way to implement the development of the Manx language. It causes me no some of the recommendations. problem and, I would say, would sit quite forcibly on my It is a highly emotive subject, hon. members. There are shoulders in relation to any other educational subject, lots of people on the Isle of Man, including myself, who because I think in educational terms, when I spoke to you think we should be doing a lot more to promote our about giving our children the best possible rounded language and our way of life here on the Island, but I could education that we could give, I would say to this hon. Court Manx Language — Future Development — Report Received • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T449

that as far as I am concerned, thinking in education, I want Mr President, I give that commitment to this hon. Court all our subjects to have a good progression and for it to be and would ask this Court that it accepts the resolution on worthwhile learning. There is frankly no place in my book the agenda paper and not the amendments. for something which is coming out of our educational system which is not going to be beneficial to the students The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out who are leaving or to the Isle of Man as as whole. at item 29 on the agenda paper, and to that resolution I We have had a considerable emphasis put on the fact have two tabled amendments: the one in the name of the that language is the be-all and end-all, and I am Manx hon. member Mr Karran and the other in the name of the through and through to the very core of my soul without hon. member Mrs Christian. one question and I would defend the Isle of Man to the nth I propose to put Mr Karran's amendment to the Court degree, but Mr Karran, in his comments to us, also put up first of all. Will those in favour of the Karran amendment a comment and quoted from a paper - or I do not know whether it was a supplement or what it was. Similarly it standing part of the resolution please say aye; against, no. just happens that I have with me, equally, an article which is taken from The Times Higher Education Supplement' A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: of the 12th January just gone by, and it says there, `Pacifying a group of people by the language they spoke In the Keys - ignores any debate about what constituted group identity and tacitly assumed that language was a key element. For: Messrs Rodan, Braidwood, Bell and Karran - 4 People may classify themselves as Gaels or Highlanders or whatever and it may be irrelevant whether they speak Against: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, North, Walker, Gaelic or not.' Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, It is important in educational terms that, as far as I am Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Groves, Corkill, concerned, we have progression in learning. That is the Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 19 commitment which I will give to the hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown. I will equally say that that The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment fails to commitment is there to make sure that it is worthwhile carry in the House of Keys with 4 votes in favour and 19 learning. My hon. colleague, Mr Corrin, says that we need against. to handle this with responsibilities, bearing in mind an excellent example which he used of other finances which In the Council - the Department of Education has to see to in relation to student grants. All these things again have to be taken in the whole. There is no question. Sympathy aside, For: Mr Waft -1 sometimes we have to keep our feet on the ground. I am sure it has not escaped the notice of hon. members Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Dr Mann, Messrs of this Court that the Department of Education has two Radcliffe, Luft, Mrs Christian and Mr Delaney - 7 members: Mr Karran on the one hand who says, 'Let's go the whole hog'; Mr Crowe, on the other hand who is The President: In the Council, 1 vote has been cast in prepared to support and seconds the amendment from the favour of the amendment, 7 votes against; the amendment hon. member for Council, Mrs Christian. You have, sir, fails to carry. my commitment to this hon. Court that I will progress the I will now put the second amendment in the name of language development and keep it going in the terms which the hon. member, Mrs Christian. Will those in favour of I have said so that it is worthwhile learning. The two other that amendment standing part of the resolution please say members of the department - if I am not watching what I aye; against, no. The noes have it. am doing on this particular measure, I am quite sure that I will soon be stood on. It is rather what one could call lying A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: between a rock and a hard place, because I am sure that is the position that I am currently holding. In the Keys - I just want to say to this hon. Court: accept the resolution as is on the agenda paper. In my opening comments to you For: Messrs Gilbey, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, I said that the Department of Education requires the Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Groves, Corkill, Gelling flexibility to be able to know where it is going. The honest and the Speaker - 12 commitment and endeavour to achieve what is there is within the department. We have to consider, like it or lump it, within priorities, and I will be disappointed at the end Against: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Crowe, of my term if I am pointed out as being the person who is Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Bell, Karran and guilty of slowing down everything and stopping Kniveton - 11 everything. But I would equally point out that the resource which is there is currently being used and being used to The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the good advantage. I said equally, in my opening remarks to amendment fails to carry, with 11 votes in favour and 12 this hon. Court, that I would wish to keep the ball rolling. against.

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In the Council - I realise it is late in the evening and I do not want to have an elaborate debate, but I personally feel very strongly • For: Mr Waft, Dr Mann, Mrs Christian and Mr about the way in which we are functioning as a consensus Delaney - 4 government at this particular moment, and I think just briefly I must refer to the committee that originally worked Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Radcliffe and Luft - 4 on the production of the ministerial system from which several members are still here. When we decided to set up The President: In the Council, 4 votes have been cast the ministerial system and, in particular, to set up the in favour of the amendment, 4 votes against; the position of Chief Minister we realised that we were putting amendment fails to carry. in the hands of one person a considerable amount of • I will now put the resolution, hon. members, as printed political power, quite deliberately to ensure that we had a on your agenda. Will those in favour of the resolution please focus of policy development and for the greater efficiency say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. of decision-making both political and departmental, but in so doing we also recognised that this power should be A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: balanced. Now, it could have been balanced in one of two ways. In the Keys - It could have been balanced by assuming a confrontational type of government in which you had a definite executive For: Messrs Gilbey, Cannan, Quine, Rodan, North, Walker, group and an opposition to balance the power of the Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, ministerial system, but there were very strong arguments Braidwood, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, for the continuance of a particular Manx system of Corkin, Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 22 government because there are few, if any, legislatures that function in exactly the same way as this one, and in the • Against: Mr Karran -1 end it was agreed by the majority of those people on the committee that we should continue with a consensus style The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the government. Part of consensus had to be, in my view House of Keys, with 22 votes in favour and 1 against. anyway, the fact that individual members not functioning In the Council - in a political party system had rights as individuals. In my view, if the majority of people just ask the question, 'what For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs is consensus', it is the majority view, and therefore a Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs Christian - 7 government that should have been established with this additional power should have consensus support. Against: Mr Delaney -1 For various reasons it was decided that this should change, and in fact consensus now starts and ends with The President: The resolution also carries in the the appointment of a Chief Minister, and the present system Council, hon. members, with 7 votes cast in favour and 1 as we have it is that once the ministerial group is established vote against. I declare the resolution carried. after the election of the Chief Minister, it is in fact a self- perpetuating group that is only added to by invitation and, that actually is very close to how the old House of Keys MINISTER FOR EDUCATION — used to operate before there were general elections in the NOMINATION SUPPORTED Isle of Man. I think, and I am sure a fair number of people are agreed, The President: We move on, hon. members, to item that we should not continue with this but should return to • 31 on the agenda paper, and I call upon the hon. member the original idea of consensus. To start with, there is an for Council, Dr Mann. enormous danger that we will move into political groupings, political parties, as a result of the change, Dr Mann: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: because, once you do not balance the power, then other forces start coming into the equation. So if we are to That continue with this consensus I am sure we ought to return to the original concept. The original concept would mean (1) Standing order 68(3) be suspended to permit that each individual appointment would be indicated by paragraph (2) of this motion to be voted upon by the Chief Minister but supported by the majority. secret ballot; In making the argument and even putting forward the two resolutions I am not talking about personalities; I am (2) this hon. Court supports the nomination by the Chief Minister of the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Cringle, talking about principle, and all I am asking is that we return to be Minister for Education. to the principle and, quite honestly -

In making my remarks as to why I have put these The President: Hon. member, I find a marked resolutions forward, to save time I think the same would divergence between your comments to the Court and the apply to the second resolution as applies to the first. resolution which is before us. Minister for Education — Nomination Supported • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T451

Members: Hear, hear. Mr Brown: Just briefly, Mr President, I really wanted to comment on the points that the mover made, or a couple Dr Mann: I accept that entirely, Mr President. of them, where he said he wished to go back to the original concept of the Board's Responsibilities Committee. I was The President: I am not sure that the Court will, on that committee and briefly I would just like to say that (Members: Hear, hear.) so I would ask you to keep more one of the problems I think the member has is that things closely to the resolution. did change during the five-year period he was not a member of this Court, and they were debated through the Dr Mann: I will, having made my reasons - and I think appropriate places. The original concept was that ministers it was important to establish my reasons for so doing - were ministers in name but chairmen in reality, departments immediately place the resolutions before this Court. Mr were departments in name but boards in reality, and we President, I beg to move the resolution standing in my have moved on. I think it has absolutely nothing at all to name. do with the resolution there which is different and which is about the appointment of ministers, and I think it would Mr Cannan: I rise to second and reserve my remarks, have been better if the hon. mover had kept to the point, sir. which was that he does not agree that the Chief Minister should appoint ministers without the authority of this Court. Mr Walker: Mr President, I would like to make a That is a different matter, and I think he broadened it out contribution. I also view this particular subject as one of into a far wider debate and here really is maybe not the great importance, not to me, not to members in this hon. place to go into it, because we could spend a lot of time on Court particularly but to the Isle of Man. I have to say, that I am sure and we will in another place. I hope members will not support the resolution. • though, having worked under both systems, that I have a preference, but I will leave that argument until we get into the House of Keys where we know there is a Bill on the Mr Cannan: Mr President, I would say that whenever way and, if it is the will of members in the House of Keys we, for the last 13 years while I have been in this Court, had an appointment for any committee, any select to change the law, well, I have to say that is fine by me. I committee, for any matter in which members are chosen, think what upsets me about this resolution is that I, as Chief members have been elected by secret ballot. We have done Minister at the moment, have appointed my ministers it for committees today and this is just asking for the same according to the law as it is at the moment. I find it terribly principle, that when members of this Court are chosen for difficult to be looking over my shoulder all the time, something then the choice is by secret ballot. because perhaps resolutions such as this will be put down. The law, or the situation, we have at the moment in my The President: May I call upon the mover to reply? view is very clear: the Chief Minister has the responsibility of appointing ministers, and if members do not like that Members: Agreed. and do not like the choice there is a very clear route to follow, and that is a resolution of no confidence, and I Dr Mann: Thank you, Mr President. I will make no cannot help thinking that if members are not satisfied with comment other than to say that as far as I am aware it is a my choice, until the law is changed, then that is what should perfectly correct thing to ask that this ballot occurs in secret. have happened and it should be a resolution of no I see no particular virtue in doing it in any other way. confidence, and then the hon. members who wish to make this particular point would have to state the reasons very The President: Hon. members, because of the structure • clearly why they think a wrong choice has been made. of the resolution I will have to put it in two parts. I will put That is the situation as I see it at the moment. That is the the first part, which is that standing order 68(3) be way I thought hon. members would have exercised their suspended to permit paragraph (2) of this motion to be rights and their views to make their views known. voted upon by secret ballot. Will those in favour of that However, that is not to be the case. It would be infantile, element of the resolution please say aye; against, no. The I suppose, for me to say I am going to oppose these noes have it. resolutions. In fact, it would obviously put us in some difficulty. I cannot just oppose them, I would have to amend A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: them in some way and then there would be a debate and In the Keys - we are going to have this debate, we know, within a month's time on the legislation. For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, Crowe, Duggan, All I would ask hon. members at this stage is not to Braidwood, Downie and Kniveton - 8 suspend standing orders as requested in the first part of these resolutions. If members feel like voting in support Against: Messrs Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, of the ministers that I have chosen in accordance with the Brown, May, Cretney, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, law, then that is a matter for them and, if they wish to vote Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 14 against them, then that is also a matter for them, but I do think it should be in open Court and should not be subject The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys the • to a secret ballot as proposed in these two resolutions. motion fails to carry with 8 votes in favour and 14 against. T452 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996

In the Council - I will put part (1) of item 32 on the agenda paper before you. Will those in favour of part (1) of item 32 please say • For: Dr Mann and Mr Delaney - 2 aye; against, no. The noes have it. Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: Mrs Christian - 6 In the Keys - The President: The motion also fails to carry in the Council, hon. members, with 2 votes being cast in favour For: Messrs Cannan, Quine, Rodan, Crowe, Duggan, and 6 votes against. Braidwood, Downie and Kniveton - 8 I am going to put the second part of the resolution at this stage, which is that this hon. Court supports the Against: Messrs Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, nomination by the Chief Minister of the hon. member for Brown, May, Cretney, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, Rushen, Mr Cringle, to be Minister for Education. Will Corkill, Gelling and the Speaker - 14 those in favour - (Interjections) The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails to carry Mr May: On a point of order, Mr President, the in the House of Keys with 8 votes in favour and 14 votes suspension of standing orders is to permit part (2) to be against. put surely, sir? In the Council - The President: No, sir, it be voted upon by secret ballot. That has been rejected, so part (2) now becomes an open For: Dr Mann and Mr Delaney - 2 ballot. Are all members clear about that? Against: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and Members: Yes. Mrs Christian - 6

The President: Very well. Now, we are going to vote The President: The motion also fails to carry in the on part (2) of the resolution that this hon. Court supports Council, hon. members, 2 votes being cast in favour and 6 the nomination of the Chief Minister of the hon. member votes against. for Rushen, Mr Cringle, to be Minister for Education. Will Now we have dispensed with that element of the those in favour of that resolution please say aye; against, resolution I have to put part (2) before you, that this hon. no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The resolution Court supports the nomination by the Chief Minister of carries. the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, to be Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. Will those in favour of that resolution please say aye; against, no. The ayes MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES have it. AND FORESTRY — NOMINATION SUPPORTED A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: The President: We move on to item 32 on the agenda paper, and I call upon the hon. member for Council, Dr In the Keys - Mann. For: Messrs Gilbey, Rodan, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, • Dr Mann: Mr President, I beg to move: Brown, May, Crowe, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, Groves, Corkill, That Kniveton, Gelling and the Speaker - 20 (1) Standing order 68(3) be suspended to permit Against: Messrs Cannan and Quine - 2 paragraph (2) of this motion to be voted upon by secret ballot; The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the House of Keys with 20 votes in favour and 2 against. (2) this hon. Court supports the nomination by the Chief Minister of the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, In the Council - to be Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. For: Messrs Lowey, Barton, Waft, Radcliffe, Luft and Mrs Christian - 6 Mr Cannan: I beg to second, sir. Against: Dr Mann and Mr Delaney - 2 The President: I will follow the same procedure, hon. members, unless any hon. member wishes to speak to the The President: In the Council 6 votes have been case resolution at this stage. If no hon. member wishes to speak in favour of the resolution, 2 votes against. I declare the to the resolution I am going to follow the same procedure. resolution carried. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry — Nomination Supported • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 1996 T453

Now, hon. members, that concludes our business for • this day. I thank you all for your patience in getting through the agenda paper and your help in doing so. Council will now withdraw, hon. members, and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as Mr Speaker may place before them. Thank you very much.

The Council withdrew.

HOUSE OF KEYS

The Speaker: Hon. members, the House will now adjourn to 10 o'clock on 23rd January in our own chamber. Thank you.

The House adjourned at 8.15 p.m.

I House of Keys •

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