32 T2003/4 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 183 T124 Volume 124, No. 5 ISSN 1742-2256

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N (HANSARD)

Douglas, Wednesday, 17th January 2007

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man. © Court of Tynwald, 2007 Printed by The Copy Shop Limited, 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man Price Band E 184 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007

Present:

The President of Tynwald (The Hon. N Q Cringle)

In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt. Rev. Graeme Knowles), The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Mr D Butt, Mrs P M Crowe, Mr A F Downie, Mr D J Gelling CBE, Mr E G Lowey, and Mr G H Waft, with Mrs M Cullen, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Chief Minister (The Hon. J A Brown) (Castletown); Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Hon. A V Craine and Hon. A R Bell (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mr T Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Hon. A J Earnshaw and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan); Hon. G M Quayle (Middle); Mr R W Henderson and Mr J R Houghton (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mr W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Mr C G Corkish MBE and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West); Mr G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Mr J P Watterson, Hon. P A Gawne and Mr Q B Gill (Rushen); with Mr M Cornwell-Kelly, Clerk of Tynwald.

Business transacted Page Orders of the Day 28. Standing Orders Committee – Four Members elected ...... 185 29. Tynwald Honours Committee – Three Members elected ...... 187 30. Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority – Chief Minister discharged ...... 187 31. Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority – Two Members elected ...... 188 32. Select Committee on the affairs of Braddan Parish Commissioners – Three Members elected ...... 189 33. British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body – One Member and one alternate Member elected ...... 189 34. Salford University – One Member elected ...... 190

Statement by the President – Failure of electronic voting ...... 191

35. Immigration legislation – Review of adequacy – Committee of five Members appointed ...... 191

Statement by The President – Distribution of papers ...... 195

The Court adjourned at 1.01 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

36. Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost ...... 195 37. Ballakilley Estate – Feasibility of public open space – Motion lost ...... 206

The Court adjourned at 4.39 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.04 p.m.

38. Douglas Head/Howe Area – Green lung recreational area – Motion lost ...... 212 39. Football Association – Feasibility of independence for Island – Amended motion carried ...... 214

Congratulations to Mr G Corkish, MHK on receipt of MBE ...... 221 Tribute to Mr D Gelling upon retirement ...... 221

The Council withdrew at 6.17 p.m.

House of Keys Manx Radio broadcasting of proceedings – Motions lost ...... 222

The House adjourned at 6.34 p.m.

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:- Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 185 T124

Tynwald Mr Gawne: I second Mr Cregeen. Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I second Mr Gill. I move that nominations close. The Court met at 10.30 a.m. The President: Mr Henderson was also on his feet, so Mr Henderson do you – [MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] Mr Henderson: Yes, Eaghtyrane, I would like to propose the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Earnshaw. PRAYERS Mr Houghton: I beg to second sir. The Lord Bishop The President: Right, Hon. Members, I will accept, then, that we have five names. Now Hon. Members, we have the five names; Mr Quayle, Mr Quirk, Mr Gill, Mr Cregeen and Mr Earnshaw. Orders of the Day If it has not settled Hon. Members, we will revert to balloting. Standing Orders Committee Four Members elected An electronic ballot took place.

28. To elect two Members of the House of Keys and two The President: Right, Hon. Members, it appears as if we Members of the Legislative Council to serve during the life have successfully entered the five names on this particular of the House of Keys. ballot. Hon. Members, the position is that we need a vote on (Mr Speaker is ex officio the Chairman; the previous Keys each Member individually, so I call for the vote on the first Members were Mrs Hannan and Mr Quayle, and the previous candidate, Hon. Members, voting for Mr Cregeen. For is red, Council Members were Mrs Crowe and Mr Lowey.) against… (Interjections and laughter) For is green, against is red. Vote now, please. The President: Now, Hon. Members, we continue where Now, Hon. Members, vote for Mr Earnshaw: vote now. we broke off last evening on our Order Paper and, as you Similarly, Hon. Members, voting now for Mr Gill: please were aware, Hon. Members, we had just completed Item 27, vote now. when we rose last evening. So, we start this morning at Item 28, which is Mr Downie: This is not working, Mr President. headed Standing Orders Committee and we are still with elections. The Clerk: Mr Earnshaw has not voted. We will try again this morning on our electronic system, Hon. Members, to elect two Members of the House of Keys Mr Earnshaw: Well, you can only vote for two, can you and two Members of the Legislative Council to serve during not? (Interjections and laughter) I may not want to vote for the life of the House of Keys, Mr Speaker as ex-officio the this one and I may want to vote – (Interjections) Chairman. Previous Keys Members were Mrs Hannan and Mr Quayle. The previous Council Members were Mrs Crowe The President: Hon. Members, voting now for Mr and Mr Lowey. Quayle. Hon. Members, perhaps we will deal first with the Keys representatives, to elect two Members of the House of Keys. Mrs Crowe: It just comes up green for everyone. Nominations please, Mr Anderson. The President: Voting now, Hon. Members, for Mr Mr Anderson: Mr President, I have great pleasure in Quirk. nominating the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. Hon. Members, the result is that Mr Cregeen received 19; Mr Earnshaw received 13; Mr Gill received 20; Mr Mr Watterson: I would like to propose Mr Quirk, Quayle received 14; and Mr Quirk, 11. So, in this particular please. instance, Hon. Members, Mr Cregeen has been successfully elected. There is now, Hon. Members, a time to go to a second Mrs Crowe: I would like to second Mr Quirk. ballot, because, in fact, of the other four candidates, none of them received the required majority. Hon. Members, we Mr Bell: I second Mr Quayle. will repeat the ballot at a second run round between those four candidates. Mr Watterson: Mr President, I would also like to Wait, Hon. Members, no matter what comes up on the propose Mr Gill. screen after I have asked you to vote, you will not know the result until the result comes up in total. The colour on the Mr Earnshaw: I would like to propose the Hon. Member screen is immaterial, it is only telling us whether you have for Malew and Santon, Mr President, Mr Cregeen. voted or not.

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Now then, Hon. Members, we move on to the second All three electronic ballots ruled out of order. ballot. The President: Hon. Members, I think there is a general A second electronic ballot took place. unhappiness at this stage with that particular ballot. I will rule that total ballot out of order. The President: Hon. Members, we are now on to the We will revert to the ballot box, Hon. Members, second ballot; vote for Mr Earnshaw. Voting now, Hon. (Members: Hear, hear.) on this particular stage, so we go Members. right back to square one and we will submit ballot papers For Mr Gill, Hon. Members. and we will still commence again, Hon. Members, using the The voting is on for Mr Quayle, please. five Members which you nominated. Finally, on this ballot, Hon. Members, vote for Mr Hon. Members, when you have your ballot papers, the Quirk. Clerk will read the names again. We are starting completely The result of that ballot, Hon. Members: Mr Earnshaw afresh with that ballot, with the five nominated Members. received 11; Mr Gill received 5; Mr Quayle received 11; and Mr Quirk received 11. No candidate was successful, Hon. Mrs Craine: Mr President, can we make it clear that we Members, in that particular ballot. are only trying to elect two Members in this instance. In this instance, Hon. Members, we will ballot for a third time, dropping off the Hon. Member, Mr Gill. So we drop The President: Yes, we will. Now, Hon. Members, off the Member who has received the lowest ballot. starting again on that ballot, the Clerk will read the names. We will vote – the lowest number of votes in that ballot – we will vote again between the three Members. The Clerk: Mr Cregeen, Mr Earnshaw, Mr Gill, Mr (Interjections) The same factor, Hon. Members, would have Quayle, Mr Quirk. applied had the tellers gone out with the ballot box, counted them, come back in. We would have been in exactly the same Mr Quirk: Sorry, Mr President, we did not have our position, only it would genuinely have taken longer. slips to mark them. Once we get this going, we will be okay. Patience, patience! The President: Alright, alright, patience! Everybody with their ballot paper, those are the five names, your original Mr Braidwood: Mr President, on the last vote, was it names. You are voting for two Members, Hon. Members. three 11 votes and one 5. Collect the ballot papers, Mr Butt will be the teller for the Council. The President: Yes. The Speaker: Mrs Craine please, teller for the Keys. Mr Braidwood: Well, that is 38. A first ballot took place. A Member: Good point. The President: Hon. Members, resume your seats and there is too much background noise, too. Mr Braidwood: We are only voting for one. Hon. Members, the result of the ballot is that Mr Cregeen received 20; Mr Earnshaw 9; Mr Gill 9; Mr Quayle 12; and Two Members: Yes, one. Mr Quirk 10. Mr Cregeen has been elected. None of the other candidates received the required Mr Braidwood: It is not bringing up the spoilt papers, majority, Hon. Members. We had better vote, although two sir. of them remain on 9, which was the lowest score. We will vote again on all four, Hon. Members. The President: Good point. However, I have already dropped Mr Gill off. We are voting now on a third trip Mr Shimmin: Mr President, could you just be helpful between the three. and remind us who had the 9 votes, the lowest votes. Could you just remind us of the names of the two lowest votes. A third electronic ballot took place. The President: You will be voting, Hon. Members, The President: Voting for Mr Earnshaw, press now between Mr Earnshaw, Mr Gill, Mr Quayle and Mr Quirk. please. The total vote was Mr Earnshaw, 9; Gill, 9; Quayle, 12; Quirk Similarly, Hon. Members, this time voting for Mr Quayle: 10. Voting for one from those four, Hon. Members. press now. The same tellers will complete the ballot. Hon. Members, now voting for Mr Quirk. A second ballot took place. Mr Braidwood: It is still 33, which is too many, sir. The President: The result of that ballot, Hon. Members: Mr Quayle: Mr President, I wonder if I might move that Mr Earnshaw received 2; Mr Gill did not receive any votes; we revert to the paper vote – Mr Quayle received 17; and Mr Quirk received 11. Which means that Mr Quayle is the second Member elected for the Several Members: Hear, hear. House of Keys. Now, Hon. Members, we need to elect two Members of Mrs Crowe: We have got to get this right. the Legislative Council.

Standing Orders Committee – Four Members elected Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 187 T124

Mr Downie: I would like to propose the Hon. Member The President: Hon. Members, if you are content at that, of Council, Mr Lowey. we have the five nominations.

Mr Waft: I second Mr Lowey. Mrs Cannell: Mr President, has Mr Corkish been seconded? Mrs Crowe: I would like to propose the Hon. Member of Council, the Lord Bishop. The President: Sorry?

Mr Waft: I second the Lord Bishop. Mrs Cannell: Mr Corkish, has he been seconded sir?

The President: Are we happy, Hon. Members? The President: Yes, he has. Voting for three, Hon. Members, submit the ballot papers, Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I move that nominations please. Now, Hon. Members, we are to elect three Members, be closed. so you will be voting for three. Hon. Members, the Clerk will read the names. The President: In that case, Hon. Members, with the two nominations being submitted, Mr Lowey and the Lord The Clerk: Mr Lowey, Mr Waft, Mr Corkish, Mr Gawne Bishop will be the two Members of the Legislative Council and Mr Karran. serving on the Standing Orders Committee. The President: Mrs Crowe will act as teller for the Council.

Tynwald Honours Committee The Speaker: Mr Henderson from the Keys, please. Three Members elected A ballot took place. 29. To elect three Members of Tynwald to serve during the life of the House of Keys. The President: If the messengers would give one run further of ballot papers around the Court, you will have it (Mr President is the Chairman and Mr Speaker is a in preparation. member ex officio; the previous elected Members were Mr Hon. Members, the result of the ballot is that Mr Lowey Gill, Mr Lowey and Mr Waft.) received 20; Mr Waft received 20; Mr Corkish received 18; Mr Gawne received 16; and Mr Karran received 19. The President: Hon. Members, we move on to Item Therefore, Mr Lowey, Mr Waft and Mr Karran are 29, the Tynwald Honours Committee, where we elect three your representatives on that particular Committee, Hon. Members of Tynwald to serve during the life of the House. Members. Mr President, as the Chairman, the Speaker as a Member ex-officio and the previous Members were Mr Gill, Mr Lowey and Mr Waft. Hon. Members, three Members of Tynwald, nominations Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority please. Mr Shimmin. Chief Minister discharged

Mr Shimmin: I propose the Member of Council, Mr 30. A member of the Committee (Mrs Crowe) to move: Waft, sir. That the Chief Minister be discharged from service on the Mr Lowey: I second, sir. Select Committee of the Court on the Manx Electricity Authority. Mr Watterson: I would like to propose Mr Geoff Corkish, MBE, MHK. (Laughter) The President: We turn, then, to Item 30 on the Order Paper. Item 30 is headed, Select Committee on the Manx Mr Quirk: Seconded, sir. Electricity Authority. A Member of the Committee to move. Mrs Crowe. Mr Teare: I would like to propose Mr Gawne, Hon. Member for Rushen. Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to move the motion standing in my name Mr Gill: I second Mr Gawne, sir. to elect another Member to the Manx Electricity Authority Mr Brown: I propose the Hon. Member for Onchan, Select Committee, which, as you know, is still continuing Mr Karran. its work, even though people perhaps think that we are not. Thank you very much. Mr Cretney: I would second Mr Karran. Mr Houghton: I beg to second. Mrs Crowe: I would like to propose the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. The President: Now, Hon. Members, the motion is that the Chief Minister be discharged from service on the Select Mr Butt: I second Mr Lowey, Mr President. Committee of the Court on the Manx Electricity Authority.

Standing Orders Committee – Four Members elected Tynwald Honours Committee – Three Members elected Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority – Chief Minister discharged 188 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day

Several Members: Agreed. should be taken into consideration by the Court. He has indicated, Hon. Members, that his former employment with The President: Hon. Members, those in favour, please KPMG may lead to difficulties. It seems, if the Member is say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. unhappy to serve on the Committee, it would be, in this particular instance, illogical to have him carried forward. With the agreement of his proposer and seconder?

Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority Mr Gill: I am happy to concede that, sir. Two Members elected The President: Thank you, sir. 31. To elect Members to succeed Mr Delaney and, if the In that case, Hon. Members, I will accept that nominations motion at Item 30 is carried, the Chief Minister. close and we have Malarkey, Quirk, Cannan, Crookall and Speaker – five. Now, Hon. Members, in this particular (The other members of the Committee are Mr Butt, Mrs instance you already have a ballot paper in front of you. You Christian and Mrs Crowe.) will be voting, Hon. Members, for two people. The Clerk will read the names. The President: We, therefore, Hon. Members, turn to Item 31 and the Select Committee on the Manx Electricity The Clerk: Mr Cannan, Mr Crookall, Mr Malarkey, Mr Authority, to elect Members to succeed Mr Delaney and the Quirk, Mr Speaker. Chief Minister. Hon. Members, I call for nominations. The President: Voting for two, Hon. Members. On Mr Crookall: Mr President, I would like to nominate this occasion Mr Gelling will do the count on behalf of the Mr Malarkey. Council. The Speaker: Mr Cregeen: I would like to second. Mr Henderson from the Keys – I am sorry, Mr Braidwood from the Keys. Mr Earnshaw: Mr President, I would like to nominate The President: Now, Hon. Members, when your ballot my colleague, Mr Quirk. papers have all been collected and the tellers have left the Court to continue with the count, the remaining messengers Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I would like to nominate will, once again, submit a ballot paper, so that it is ready for Mr Cannan. the next motion.

Mrs Crowe: I would like to nominate Mr Watterson, the A ballot took place. Hon. Member for Rushen. The President: Have you all submitted your ballot Mr Watterson: Sorry, Mr President, I would just like to papers, Hon. Members? Mr Gill? Thank you. inform Members that, as a former employee of KPMG, the Hon. Members, the result of the ballot: Mr Cannan auditors, certain facts came to light during my employment received 10; Mr Crookall, 7; Mr Malarkey, 13; Mr Quirk, there which I would be just conscious of and I would like 11; and the Speaker 21. In this particular instance, Hon. Members to bear that in mind, please. Members, Mr Speaker has been elected. We, therefore, require to vote again between the four Mr Quayle: I would like to second Mr Quirk, Mr remaining Members, Cannan, Crookall, Malarkey and Quirk. President. You already have your papers, Hon. Members. Voting for one. Mr Butt: Mr President, I would like to nominate Mr We will follow the same procedure Hon. Members. When Crookall. your ballot papers have been collected and the tellers who remain, the same to complete the ballot have left the Court, Mr Karran: I would like to second Mr Cannan, the Hon. a further run of ballot papers will be submitted. Member for Michael. A second ballot took place. Mr Lowey: I beg to second Mr Crookall. The President: Hon. Members, once again the result of Mr Brown: I propose Mr Speaker. the election was that Mr Cannan received 7; Mr Crookall received 6; Mr Malarkey, 9; and Mr Quirk, 9. In this particular Mrs Crowe: I would be very pleased to second Mr instance, Hon. Members, no candidate was successful. We Speaker. will drop off Mr Crookall, as the Member receiving the lowest number of votes and you will vote once again between Mr Gill: I second Mr Watterson, sir. Mr Cannan, Mr Malarkey and Mr Quirk for the remaining position. Hon. Members, voting for one. Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I move that nominations Again, Hon. Members, when your ballot papers have be closed. been collected, the same tellers continuing with the ballot, we will have another run of papers submitted. The President: I am a little concerned, Hon. Members, in relation to Mr Watterson. Perhaps Mr Watterson’s words A third ballot took place.

Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority – Chief Minister discharged Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority –Two Members elected Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 189 T124

The President: Hon. Members, if Mr Karran will retake Mrs Craine: Has Mr Downie been seconded, Mr his seat, we can continue with the ballot. President? The result of that ballot was that Mr Cannan had 2; Mr Malarkey had 13; Mr Quirk had 15. No Member was The President: No. successful. We will drop off the name of Mr Cannan. You will vote between Mr Malarkey and Mr Quirk. Mrs Craine: I will second Mr Downie.

A fourth ballot took place. The President: He has now.

The President: Hon. Members, the result of that ballot Mr Quirk: Mr President, I would like to propose our was that Mr Malarkey received 12 and Mr Quirk 19. Mr Chief Minister, the Member for Castletown, Mr Brown. Quirk is, therefore, elected as the other Member to serve on that Committee, Hon. Members. Several Members: No.

Mr Downie: I second Mr Braidwood, Mr President.

Select Committee on the affairs of Mr Brown: I propose Mr Speaker, Mr President. Braddan Parish Commissioners Three Members elected Mr Downie: I second Mr Speaker, Mr President.

32. If the motion at Item 6 is carried, to elect three Members Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I move that nominations of Tynwald to serve on the Committee. be closed, sir.

The President: We turn to Item 32. The President: I accept that, Hon. Members, which Now, Hon. Members, as we commented yesterday in leaves us with six. I have discounted Mr Quayle. dealing with Item 6 which was carried, Hon. Members, now Hon. Members, we have seven nominated Members. we have reached the position of electing three Members to You are to elect three. You have your ballot papers already serve on the Braddan Parish Commissioners Committee. I on your desks. The Clerk will read the names. call for nominations. The Clerk: The Lord Bishop, Mr Downie, Mr Braidwood, Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I would like to nominate the Mr Karran, Mr Quayle, Mr Teare, Mr Speaker. Lord Bishop. The President: You are voting for three, Hon. Members. Mr Lowey: I would like to propose Mr Karran, sir. I think on this occasion Mr Waft will act as teller for Council. Mr Cretney: I would like to second Mr Karran. The Speaker: Mr Anderson from the Keys. Mr Downie: I second the Lord Bishop. A ballot took place The President: Mr Cretney is seconding Mr Karran, and Mr Downie has seconded the Lord Bishop. The President: Are all your papers submitted, Hon. Members? In that case, Hon. Members, when the tellers Mr Gill: I would like to propose the Member for Middle, have left, again we will submit another run of papers. Thank Mr Quayle, sir. you. Hon. Members, on this occasion the Lord Bishop Mr Watterson: I would like to second that, please. received 11; Mr Downie received 16; Mr Braidwood received 6; Mr Karran had 22; Mr Quayle, 5; Mr Teare, 8; and Mr The President: Mr Bell. Speaker, 22. There was one spoilt paper, Hon. Members, and the result of the ballot is that, in fact, the Members to serve Mr Bell: I propose the Hon. Member of Council, Mr on the Braddan Parish Commissioners Committee are Mr Downie. Downie, Mr Karran and Mr Speaker.

Mr Quayle: I think Mr President, it should be noted, with it being in my own constituency it would be preferable not to be on that Committee. British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body One Member and one alternate Member elected Mr Braidwood: I would like to propose the Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Teare. 33. To elect one Member of Tynwald and one alternate Member to serve during the life of the House of Keys. Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I would like to propose the Hon. Member for East Douglas, Mr Braidwood. (The previous Member was Mr Speaker Brown and the alternate Member was Mr Lowey.) Mr Karran: I would like to second the Hon. Member for Ayre. The President: Hon. Members, we now turn to Item

Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority –Two Members elected Select Committee on the affairs of Braddan Parish Commissioners – Three Members elected British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body – One Member and one alternate Member elected 190 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day

33 on the Order Paper, British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary for East Douglas. Body, and we need to elect one Member of Tynwald and one alternate Member to serve during the life of the House. Mr Downie: I would like to propose the Member for The previous Member was Mr Speaker Brown and the West Douglas, Mr Corkish, for this position. alternate Member was Mr Lowey. Nominations please. Chief Minister. Mrs Crowe: I would like to second –

Mr Brown: I propose Mr Speaker be the Member, Mr The President: Now, wait a minute, Mr Braidwood. President. Mr Braidwood: Mr Speaker, I was going to propose Mr Karran: I propose the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Mr Downie. Lowey, with his extensive knowledge in these things. Mrs Crowe: I would like to second Mr Corkish, but Mr Anderson: I second Mr Speaker. I would like to point out that the sittings of Salford Court always correspond with the sittings of Tynwald so it is Mrs Crowe: I would like to second Mr Lowey, please. unfortunate that the Member who is elected very seldom would have an opportunity to attend. Mr Houghton: Nominations closed. The President: Mrs Craine. The President: Are we content, Hon. Members? Mrs Craine: I would like to nominate Mr Cretney, Several Members: Agreed. please, Mr President. The President: Now the position is to elect one Member Mr Watterson: I would like to propose Mr Karran, of Tynwald and one as the alternate Member to serve during please. the life of the House. We need to decide between those two which is your serving Member and which will be the Mr Quirk: Seconded. alternate Member, in which case, Hon. Members, we will need to ballot. Mr Lowey: I would like to second Mr Cretney, sir. Now can I suggest, Hon. Members, with whichever way it goes the alternate Member becomes the – that is the logical Mr Henderson: I second Mrs Cannell. way of doing it. So the one receiving the most votes, Hon. Members, will become the Member. Your two nominations The President: Hon. Members… Mr Lowey. are Mr Speaker and Mr Lowey. (Interjections) No, no, you are voting for one. If anybody has spoiled a paper, let me Mr Lowey: Could I propose the Hon. Member, Mr know now. Waft. On this occasion, the Lord Bishop will count for the Council. Mr Speaker. The Lord Bishop: I second Mr Waft. The Speaker: Mrs Craine, please. The President: Okay, Hon. Members, there are five A ballot took place. nominations which have been seconded: Mr Waft, Mrs Cannell, Mr Corkish, Mr Cretney, Mr Karran. The President: Hon. Members, the result of the ballot is Now, Hon. Members, just to clarify that issue so that that Mr Speaker received 18 and Mr Lowey received 12. Mr you know in order of your ballot paper the Clerk will read Speaker becomes the serving Member, the alternate Member the names. being Mr Lowey. The Clerk: Mr Waft, Mrs Cannell, Mr Corkish, Mr Cretney, Mr Karran.

Salford University The President: You are electing one Member, Hon. One Member elected Members. On this occasion, I think Mr Lowey will act as teller for the Council. 34. To elect one Member of Tynwald to serve for a period expiring on 31st July 2009. The Speaker: Mr Crookall from the Keys.

(The previous Member was Mr Downie.) A ballot took place.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, we turn to Item The President: Okay, Hon. Members, the result of the 34 on the Order Paper, which is to elect one Member to ballot is that Mr Waft received 3; Mrs Cannell received 2; serve on Salford University for the period expiring on 31st Mr Corkish received 6; Mr Cretney received 14; Mr Karran July 2009, the previous Member being Mr Downie. I call received 6. No Member was elected, the requirement being for nominations. 16 in this instance, Hon. Members. As Mrs Cannell has the least number of votes, on this Mr Houghton: I beg to nominate Mrs Cannell, Member occasion we will drop Mrs Cannell out of the ballot and you

British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body – One Member and one alternate Member elected Salford University – One Member elected Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 191 T124 will vote for one between Mr Waft, Mr Corkish, Mr Cretney and I would echo that. I think that is a reflection, Eaghtyrane, and Mr Karran. that immigration is a legitimate and pressing issue on the The same tellers will continue with the ballot. political agenda and it is something which, certainly for those of us who stood for election in the House of Keys, A second ballot took place. encountered on a very regular basis on the doorsteps. Again, if I may make a second quote, and for the record enter my The President: Now, Hon. Members, as a result of the comments in my manifesto to this Court: second ballot, Mr Waft received 1; Mr Corkish received 1; Mr Cretney received 23; and Mr Karran received 6. Mr ‘Small island communities need both immigration and emigration, Cretney is, therefore, elected as our representative to Salford but when one is significantly out of step with the other there can be University. problems. The UK Government has spectacularly failed to anticipate the huge numbers who have entered Britain since they chose to open their borders in 2004. Having served on the Council of Ministers Social Issues Committee, considering the regulations which could underpin the Residents Act, I formed the opinion that introducing this legislation Statement by the President is not appropriate at the present time, not least because of the unknown Failure of electronic voting cost of the supporting administration, but also the worrying implications for personal privacy. However, we simply cannot afford to misjudge immigration policies, The President: Now, Hon. Members, before you all rush as the British Government have done. The Isle of Man has certain off, if I may. (Laughter) differences from the UK, such as the work permit, Social Security and Hon. Members, I appreciate that, in fact, there have housing legislation, and a review of our relevant legislation, leading to been times this morning when there has been a little bit of the best system to maintain control over immigration, should therefore disquiet around. It is inevitable that, at the start of the new be a priority for the next administration.’ assembly, there were a lot of committees to complete on the Order Paper. With a brand new Court it was inevitable that So it is on the back of that manifesto pledge, Eaghtyrane, we would be forming many new committees. that I put this motion to the Court, and I do not say – and let It is unfortunate, Hon. Members, that the electronic me be quite clear – that immigration equals a problem. I do system has failed, on this particular occasion, to work. I want not say that emigration equals a problem. What I have said is to make it quite plain, Hon. Members, that it was not as a that when one is significantly out of step with another there result of anything that any Member had in any way initiated could be problems and I stick by that. in relation to the equipment. It appears, in fact, as if there is I do not know, Eaghtyrane, although I am obliged to a glitch at this time within the software, so it is not within the Government – the previous Government – the Chief the Members’ control: it is without. Secretary’s Office for issuing a very helpful booklet which is I will not, Hon. Members, be using the electronic very accessible and very clear, of frequently asked questions, equipment in any further vote until I am satisfied that it is in entitled, Immigration in the Isle of Man, just before the correct working order. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) election. That was a very helpful document to allay certain Thank you, Hon. Members. hysterical concerns that certain people had. This gives us a very concise outline of the situation, as it currently obtains both in the Isle of Man, within the free travel area and wider beyond, and that is very helpful. Immigration legislation Nonetheless, the issue is one which has widespread Review of adequacy concern. I think, from reading manifestos of many Committee of five Members appointed candidates, successful and unsuccessful, it featured more or less in just about everybody’s manifesto. Therefore, I want 35. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gill) to move: to offer the opportunity to Members to actually fulfil that pledge and that interest they have raised by the process of a That a Committee of five Members be appointed with select committee which could report back – there is no rush powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to on it, so by October – and, in doing so, it could see if there sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, are any areas that the Isle of Man may benefit from reviewing as amended, to examine and review the operation and or from amending our legislation or our practices. adequacy of the existing legislation available to the Isle I was interested, and I thank the Tynwald Library for of Man for monitoring and controlling immigration to circulating a document from Guernsey, and I will not try to the Island, and to report no later than the sitting of the pronounce the title of it, but it relates to Guernsey’s strategic Court in October 2007 with recommendations. population and migration policy and I would anticipate that this might well be the template for the workings of the select The President: We turn to item 35, Immigration. Hon. committee which I am proposing. Member, Mr Gill, to move. Mr Downie: I hope not. Mr Gill: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to begin with a quote, if I may, by the current Mr Gill: Well, the Minister says he hopes not and I will Home Secretary in the United Kingdom, Dr Reid, in which be interested – he says: ’Indeed, in my view, mass migration and the management of A Member: The former Minister! immigration is now the greatest challenge facing all European governments. We have to get away from the notion that anyone who Mr Gill: – to hear his reason – the former Minister, I wants to talk about immigration is somehow racist,’ apologise.

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To my mind, I think this covers issues that are of relevant Let us face up to facts here and let us get on now with a interest and I would be interested to hear the resistance from select committee who can look into this matter in detail and the former Minister. Perhaps it is because the Government find a way out of this, rather than find a way of getting us has signally and repeatedly failed to have a target population, deeper embroiled into the situation. and perhaps they would like to explain if that is still the So I most certainly would support this motion, sir. Thank case. you. But, Eaghtyrane, the point I wish to make is that issues of immigration, when they are outwith any control of the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. Government, as we have seen in Britain, will have an effect throughout Britain and potentially that will have an effect Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. in the Isle of Man. Yes, I am very pleased that my colleague for Rushen has If our Government is content with that, then let us hear it. raised this issue. Certainly, during the election campaign it If they have the concerns that I have voiced, then I hope that was something that was strongly raised on the doorsteps in they will support this motion and we will see by the voting Rushen and, unlike – I know it was commented on Manx and relating that to the comments in the various manifestos, Radio that, in fact, this was only a town issue – it certainly how consistent Members are in their actions, as opposed to was not the case from my experience. This was something their pledges. that was being raised by many people in Rushen. So I am very So, with that, I do not propose to speak at any length supportive of this. I do think it is an important area and we and I would simply reaffirm the body of the motion before do need to support it and, ideally, the committee will come us, to elect a committee of five Members, under the relevant up with some sensible ways forward. Proceedings Act, I was very interested, as well, to read the policy statement from Guernsey, that the States’ policy should be consistent ‘to examine and review the operation and adequacy of the existing with maintaining Guernsey’s population broadly around legislation available to the Isle of Man for monitoring and controlling immigration to the Island, and to report no later than the sitting of the 60,000 people over the next 60 years. It is a very interesting Court in October 2007 with recommendations.’ concept. Certainly, it is one that seems to have been rejected by Isle of Man Government in the past, but I would be very I beg to move, sir. interested if the select committee could actually look at some depth at that particular issue to see whether something of The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. that ilk could be applied to the Isle of Man.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. The President: Hon. Member, Chief Minister. I would like to commend the Hon. Member for Rushen for bringing this extremely important motion before this The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Yes, thank you, Mr Court today. Had he not, I would have done so. President. Just to say that, from the point of view of myself and the The President: Can I, Hon. Member, make sure that Council, we are not opposed to the setting up of the select you are seconding. committee, in fact feel that it will be helpful for the people of the Isle of Man (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) to have Mr Houghton: I am most certainly seconding, sir, and Tynwald look at this issue, whereas Government administers doing that with pleasure. the process in dealing with immigration. This is a vitally important issue – vitally important issue. I think it is important that there is a clear understanding In fact, I would speak, if I may, in an even stronger stance within the populace as to the reality of the Isle of Man’s than the Hon. Member, that the hon. mover has put, in this situation. There is no doubt, and we have all – who are in way. I would say, where he says there is no rush, I would say here in the lower house – been through the process of the it is quite urgent that we get on with this. Yes, of course, the General Election and these issues were raised by people. time needs to be given to consider this matter. I often found that a lot of it was actually misunderstanding I support him where, normally, a select committee is (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I think that the more we can brought forward with three members, that there be five clarify the position with the people who live in the Island as to members on it, because it is a very serious issue. There are the reality of the situation, then the better it will be for us all most certainly some serious implications that must be looked to understand where we actually do stand as an island. I think at line by line, because we must find that select committee it will be helpful for a select committee, on this occasion, to and then it must be endorsed by this Court, hopefully, if the get evidence, to examine the situation and see the reality of recommendations are satisfactory, but there must be a way where we are as an island in relation to immigration. found urgently to deal with this issue, rather than what we Again, I touched on this yesterday, Mr President, from are being told. our point of view as the Isle of Man, immigration starts It appears that the present Government – and certainly for people from outside of the Island coming here to live, with the past Government – that, of course, we need whether they are from the United Kingdom, (A Member: employees to work in the service sector. We know that, we Hear, hear.) whether they are from southern Ireland or are all aware of the implications, there is no point in going whether they are from a European country, or from any other through all of that now in this debate. What we need to do country in the world. That is where immigration in theory is look at all those implications, we need to find a way. We into the Island comes. know that this is being thrust upon us by failed UK policy, The immigration law, of course, is slightly different as the Hon. Member indeed said himself, but this Island is because people from the United Kingdom and southern being ruined. Ireland are not subject to that legislation and European

Immigration legislation – Review of adequacy – Committee of five Members appointed Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 193 T124 people, of course, are now being allowed in, and we do have been involved in social issues committees and other have, as I made it clear yesterday, the work permit legislation things, who do have a lot of in-depth knowledge about these which runs alongside that. Of course, quite clearly, as I again issues. I would like to see this committee started as soon as indicated yesterday, the Minister for Trade and Industry has possible and let us see what recommendations come back been asked to take a closer look at enforcement and ensuring to this Court. that that legislation is effective for protecting the Island and its workers. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. So, Mr President, with that I hope it is helpful to Members to make the point that executive Government are content Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have no problem with the to support the process of looking at this issue through a motion. I have concerns… actually I am a little bit reassured select committee and, hopefully, that will help clear the air after the Hon. Member of Council’s input that, maybe, it and also, if there are issues that we find we can benefit the will not be such a device to kick it into the long grass. As I Island by improving something, then everybody I am sure say, I know that the proposal will go through with the Chief will welcome that. Minister, which also worries me a little bit, to see who ends up on the committee. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. What concerns me, Eaghtyrane, is the fact that they have got to report back in October, but we have about 18 months, The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie. two-year window opportunity with a new administration, to get meaningful, unpopular sort of legislation through. What Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President. I am concerned about, Eaghtyrane, I am prepared to support I have no problem at all in supporting the motion to have the motion here, but I put a caveat that we will have other this committee set up. What I do take inference at, was when issues to do with primary legislation that we might want the Hon. Member for Rushen said that we should use this to introduce and I do not want it used as an excuse that we document as some sort of a template. If the Hon. Member have this select committee on immigration and it is siding for Rushen had done his homework, he would realise that up with the Council of Ministers, so the likes of the Liberal there is a lot of injustice in the system that operates in Jersey Vannin Party cannot bring in its own initiatives, as far as it and Guernsey, and, in fact, it is wrong to make comparisons is concerned. between the Isle of Man and Guernsey. So long as that is the case, I am perfectly happy. I There is little industry in Guernsey, their financial am perfectly happy to support and we are, as a party. Me services industry is nowhere near the size that it is in the and my hon. colleague are prepared to support this, but I Isle of Man and I would hate to think that we would be am concerned – and I do hope the mover proves that my considering setting up a system in here which restricts scepticism is not right – that this will be used as a device new people coming in to work in our economy to live in just to kick it into the long grass. We have heard this for so apartments and flats and prohibits them from getting into long before. the housing market. On that understanding, that I hope that we will not have So you need to be careful, Hon. Members. It is a much the block vote if we do want to bring in primary legislation bigger issue. I honestly think that it is a good time to look at in another place on initiatives, we will not end up with a all these areas, but I would say to Hon. Members, be very, situation where that stuff will not get the sort of in-depth very careful, because if you do look in some areas you will debate and scrutiny that needs to be addressed, as far as actually realise how little control you actually have with this important issue is concerned, because I totally agree some of these issues. with the Member for Douglas North and the mover of the If you want to have a robust system in the Isle of Man, motion. This needs support, but it must not be seen as a I think you will actually send the wrong signal out. I agree device to say, oops, well, we want to do something, but it that there has to be some effective control, there has to be is in a committee. some balance in all this. The life blood of this Island for the last hundred years has been because people have chosen to Mrs Crowe: Rubbish. come here, set up a business here, put something back into the economy of the Isle of Man: sadly, if we do send the The President: Mr Gill to reply. wrong signal out that we are closed for business, you will be living on a little, isolated rock, in my opinion, and you will Mr Gill: Thank you, Mr President. not be moving this Island any further forward. First of all, if I could begin by thanking Mr Houghton Some of you might like that. Some of you might want for seconding this. I would start as I mean to carry on by to get yourself in that position, but do not forget, Hon. saying that I do not accept that the Island is being ruined Members, this economy needs about £550 million a year and I want to distance myself from that comment. I entirely just to keep the wheels of industry greased and provide for accept the right and the candidate, the Hon. Member, reflects all our expenditure. So there is a balance to be struck and I in saying that, but thank him for seconding and for bringing do not think we are in a position yet when we can declare this to the Court. ourselves a sovereign state, have passports and passport My colleague in Rushen, Mr Gawne, again I thank controls and bring in all sorts of rules and regulations at the him for his support and his reaffirmation of the concerns ports of entry. that were raised on many doorsteps in Rushen and I am In saying that, I am sure that when the committee starts confident across the Island. He did make an interesting to look at the issue, I think we will come up with, probably, point and I know he will be anxious for me to reflect on it, something that is sensible. I support the committee and there which the previous Government have always shied away are a lot of people in this Court at the present time who from having a population target figure, for whatever reason.

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That is something that might fall within the remit of the a seconder for Mr Downie, I do not think. Right, okay. committee to consider further and I am sure that that will Continue, Mr – be something that Mr Gawne, if this committee is elected, will want to hear from him, but I have certainly made a note Mr Quayle: I propose the Hon. Member for Michael, of that very clearly. Mr Cannan. The Chief Minister, also, to thank him for his and his Government’s support and I welcome his very balanced Mr Karran: I will second Mr Cannan. comments and the fact that he would regard this as a reasoned appreciation of the current system and any opportunities or Mr Lowey: I propose the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, not to change or vary those arrangements. Mr Anderson. Mr Downie, again, I thank him for his support, but not for his unnecessary comments about doing homework. (Mr The President: Mr Henderson. Henderson: Hear, hear.) I struggle still to understand, in the light of his comments, why this as a template – that is what I Mr Henderson: I will second Mr Downie. said – would be so difficult. He might be right about Guernsey and the injustices that they allow in Guernsey. I am less Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I propose the Hon. Member, concerned about that, but as a template, having population although not present today, but with an enormous experience and migration policy, demographic projections, economic in social issues, Mrs Clare Christian. modelling, underpinning policy objectives, monitoring and evaluation, analysis and responses to previous legislation Mr Downie: I beg to second, Mr President. and reports, I struggle to see why that is a failure to do your homework. I think you have missed the boat on that one, The President: Mr Quirk. frankly, Mr Downie, but nonetheless. I will not rise to the red herrings about living on a rock, Mr Quirk: I would like to propose Mr Karran. or we are not a sovereign state and we never will be, but if the committee is formed, then perhaps we will have a chance The President: Mr Karran? to have a more informative version of those comments. Lastly, again, I seem to be thanking everybody. I thank the Mr Quirk: Yes, Karran. current leader of the Liberal Vannin Party for his block vote support (Laughter) for the motion and I accept his scepticism The President: Mr Teare. is genuine and we will see if it is founded. I can assure you from my part this is the motion which I am bringing Mr Teare: I would like to propose the Member from to this Court as a private Member, as a backbencher. It is North Douglas, Mr Henderson, please. not something I have discussed with the Government, but I appreciate the support of Government. I am disappointed that Mr Downie: I beg to second Mr Henderson. Government did not bring this type of motion themselves, but there we are: I am happy I have and I appreciate the Mr Henderson: I beg to propose Mr Houghton, support and I look forward to proceeding in the manner Eaghtyrane. which I have described. I beg to move, sir. Mr Lowey: I beg to second Mr Houghton.

The President: Hon. Members, the motion I put to the Mr Cretney: I propose the Hon. Member for Rushen, Court is that printed at 35 on your Order Paper. Those in Mr Watterson. favour, please say aye; and against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr Downie: I second Mr Watterson. In that case, Hon. Members, we require to elect a committee of five Members and I call for nominations. Mrs Mr Anderson: I would like to second Mr Watterson. Crowe. The President: Can I suggest, Hon. Members – I know Mrs Crowe: I would like to nominate the Hon. Member you are anxious and the decision is yours, but very shortly I for South Douglas, Mr Malarkey. will have a complete list of Keys! (Laughter) Mrs Crowe.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second that proposal. Mrs Crowe: I would like to propose Mr Speaker.

Mr Waft: I propose Mr Downie. Mr Shimmin: I beg to second, Mr President.

Mr Brown: I propose Mr Gill, the Hon. Member for Mr Watterson: I would like to propose Mr Cregeen, Rushen. please.

Mr Houghton: I beg to second. Mr Lowey: I second Mr Cregeen, sir.

Mr Quayle: I propose Mr Cannan, Hon. Member – Mr Houghton: I propose nominations close, sir.

The President: One at a time, please. I have not had The President: Thank you, sir. (Laughter) Right. Now,

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Hon. Members, I understand you have your ballot paper at Mr Houghton, Mr Malarkey and Mr Watterson, voting for hand. Has any Member not got a ballot paper? In that case, one. Hon. Members, you all have a ballot paper. You are voting for five, Hon. Members and the Clerk will read the names. A fourth ballot took place. Gently and slowly I have been asked for, take it slowly. The President: Hon. Members, have you all submitted The Clerk: Mrs Christian, Mr Downie, Mr Anderson, Mr your ballot papers? Continue then. Cannan, Mr Cregeen, Mr Gill, Mr Henderson, Mr Houghton, Hon. Members, as a result of ballot 4 on the Immigration Mr Malarkey, Mr Watterson, Mr Speaker. motion, Mr Downie received 1; Mr Cannan received 4; Mr Cregeen received 1; Mr Malarkey received 8; and Mr The President: Mrs Crowe will act as teller for Watterson received 15. Mr Watterson is, therefore, elected Council. and the Committee consists of Mr Speaker, Mr Gill, Mrs Christian, Mr Henderson and Mr Watterson. The Speaker: Mr Corkish, as teller for the Keys, Now, Hon. Members, I think it is an appropriate time please. (Members: Hear, hear.) we broke for lunch. Can I remind the Hon. Court that, in fact, there is a meeting of the A ballot took place. Commonwealth Parliamentary Association during lunch time. The President: Now, Hon. Members, with the boxes having left for the count, again can our messengers circulate another ballot paper, please. Hon. Members, the result of the ballot is that Mrs Statement by The President Christian received 10 votes; Mr Downie 7 votes; Mr Distribution of papers Anderson, 5; Mr Cannan, 14; Mr Cregeen, 6; Mr Gill, 20; Mr Henderson, 14; Mr Houghton, 7; Mr Malarkey, 10; Mr The President: Hon. Members, I wish to make the case Watterson, 14; and Mr Speaker, 23. that, some little time ago, I circulated a note to Members There were three spoiled papers, Hon. Members. That in regard to the distribution of papers in the Chamber and means, in fact, that we have elected two Members to the asked, if Members wish to have papers distributed, that they committee. should be in my hands the evening before. We will re-ballot on the remaining nine Members, Hon. This morning I have had two lots of papers delivered Members. You have a ballot paper, you will be voting which Members are wishing to have circulated before the for three Members and you will be voting between Mrs motion this afternoon. Both those papers – one relating to Christian, Mr Downie, Mr Anderson, Mr Cannan, Mr the Isle of Man Football Association and one in relation to Cregeen, Mr Henderson, Mr Houghton, Mr Malarkey and the Ballakilley motion which is on your Order Paper – will Mr Watterson. Three places still to fill, Hon. Members. be distributed to Members during this lunch time. Can I make a plea that we do try to avoid this position A second ballot took place. and abide by getting papers into my hand for circulation in good time. It adds nothing to a debate if Members are having The President: The same tellers will complete the ballot. papers circulated whilst other Members are trying to make When your ballot papers are collected, Hon. Members, we their point and to ask for papers to be circulated when you will re-circulate another list of papers. are making your own motion is, actually, in defeat of your Now, Hon. Members, the result of the ballot: Mrs own motion. Christian, 14; Mr Downie, 6; Mr Anderson, 2; Mr Cannan, It does not work, Hon. Members, and we need to have 12; Mr Cregeen, 3; Mr Henderson, 18; Mr Houghton, 5; Mr better control over the distribution of papers. Malarkey, 7; Mr Watterson, 14. Mr Henderson is, therefore, Hon. Members, we will resume our deliberations at elected to the committee. 2.30 p.m. Thank you. We still require from the remaining Members, Hon. Members – from the remaining Members we will ballot The Court adjourned at 1.01 p.m. yet again. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. This time we are looking for two. Members you are voting between are Mrs Christian, Mr Downie, Mr Anderson, Mr Cannan, Mr Cregeen, Mr Houghton, Mr Malarkey, Mr Watterson. You are voting for two, Hon. Members. The same Airport runway extension tellers will continue. Investigation into necessity Motion lost A third ballot took place. 36. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move: The President: Hon. Members, the result of the ballot is that Mrs Christian received 15; Mr Downie, 2; Mr Anderson, (1) That a Committee of three Members be appointed 1; Mr Cannan, 11; Mr Cregeen, 5; Mr Houghton, 2; Mr with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant Malarkey, 7; and Mr Watterson 13. Hon. Members, on that to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, ballot we have elected Mrs Christian. as amended, to investigate – There is still one position to fill. We continue to ballot (a) whether and for what purpose or purposes a longer between Mr Downie, Mr Anderson, Mr Cannan, Mr Cregeen, runway is necessary or desirable at the Isle of Man

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airport and, if so, we can ill afford: it has happened so many times in the past. (b) the various options for achieving it and whether How many particular high-paid, pampered civil servants the plans proposed or under consideration by the or even Members of this Court are willing to analyse and Government are apt for the purpose, scrutinise what is happening around them and speak out when and to report to the July 2007 sitting of the Court with they see something is wrong, rather than saying nothing for recommendations. an easy life? (2) That no further public expenditure or financial I am not asking for an answer from Hon. Members present obligations in relation to the proposed runway extension today, but I ask just that we all have a personal resolution should be incurred or undertaken until Tynwald has for the New Year and the new administration that we will debated the recommendations of the select committee try much harder in this direction for the good of our country now appointed and made a decision on the options and the Manx people. I apologise, Eaghtyrane, to this Hon. recommended. Court for digression, but it is an important related issue and one that Members know I feel passionate about. The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. Returning to the thousands of pages of documentation Hon. Members, we are up to Item 36, Airport Runway produced for the runway planning application, how many motion. I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, of these pages were devoted to what I consider to be the to move. most important aspect? In other words, which option for the longer runway should be chosen and if we do accept Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I move this motion today the longer runway is required, even if it is necessary, would because I am concerned that there has not been a thorough, Hon. Members of this Hon. Court like to guess how many independent investigation of all possible options for pages? Twenty pages, ten pages, five pages? Eaghtyrane, it achieving a longer runway for the Isle of Man or, indeed, is, in fact, one page. whether a longer runway is necessary or even desirable. Yes, as I say, in my hand we have got one page and what I accept that a lot of time and money has been spent on it says it repeats, almost parrot-fashion, in the planning the current scheme being promoted by the Airport authorities officer’s report and in it, it says that the planning officer’s and the Department of Transport and their consultants; far report and the presentation to the Planning Committee, we too much money, as far as I am concerned. Money that have to rely on. I ask Hon. Members what sort of scrutiny could have been spent on far more worthwhile causes like is that? Not enough, I hope. I would say – and I sincerely the healthcare facilities, for example. I gather that £1.5 and honestly believe – that the Manx people deserve better, million has been spent, or maybe misspent, on this project which is why I am moving this motion today and I hope Hon. up to planning application stage. I have been told that nearer Members will support me in this issue. £150,000 should have been sufficient. The Government of this country has not got a good record So who has benefited from all this additional, and as far on capital projects, whatever the spin from the Council of as I am concerned, wasted Government expenditure? Money Ministers and the paid media put out for them. The MEA, taken from the hard-working Manx taxpayers. Whose idea the IRIS spring immediately to mind. For the Airport we are was it for so much of it to be so wastefully spent? Are using the same consultants that were involved with the IRIS these people so careless with their own personal money? fiasco and this building, for another example. It worries me. Taxpayers’ money is real money and can only be spent once Even allowing for the fact that they did come back at a later and we need to be more prudent in the way we spend our stage, as far as this building is concerned. citizens’ money. I will return to this theme later. Here we have another capital project that is likely to cost The documentation produced by the Airport department £40 million, the vast majority of which will go off-Island, and their consultants is certainly impressive, at least in money the economy can ill afford. We do not want a white weight. The weight in pounds rather than academic weight. elephant or another black hole and the citizens of the nation The paperwork produced for the planning application stands will lose all confidence in this Hon. Court if we allow this nearly a foot high. Just think of the effects on global warming to happen. If taxpayers’ money has to be spent, let us make from that amount of forest that has been lost to produce the sure it is spent wisely and on a scheme that will have most paperwork alone. I wonder if the new Shirveishagh, that is the cost benefit to the country and least harm to the Manx people Minister for Transport, has had a chance to read and digest it and the environment. all yet, or perhaps his predecessor in the Department? So let us be pro-active this time, not reactive. Not like And what about the members of the Planning Committee? the White Hoe, trying to sort out the problems when they Did they read it, along with the rest of the information in have gone wrong. Let us scrutinise things properly, make the planning file before making the decision to approve the the right decisions first time round. planning application? More to the point, did they scrutinise According to the figures just released, there were actually it and critically analyse all the information that was available 2.2% fewer air passengers in 2006, compared to the previous before coming to a decision, or did they more or less follow year, despite a slight increase in the number of scheduled the recommendations of the planning officer who accepted airline movements and routes flown. This is a trend that is the following recommendations of the airport people? All confirmed by the latest figures. good civil servants working together for a pleasant and So do we really need a longer runway at the airport? Are easy life. the increases in passenger numbers projected by the Airport That is one of the main problems with our political realistic? It seems like an extremely rosy scenario for the system. There is not enough scrutiny or analysing before Island’s economy for passenger numbers to go up from decisions are made. Facts and details are withheld or covered 800,000 now to 2.5 million by the year 2030. Even if the up, whistle-blowers are victimised, so bad decisions are made infrastructure of the Island could cope with the increase, it is and perpetuated and it generally costs us all money which difficult to see why so many people would want to travel by

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 197 T124 air to the Isle of Man. Let us not have another Peel heritage Looking at the information in the planning file, the most centre, where the figures were nonsense from day one. More viable alternative would appear to be extending inland the of the senior Members will remember that. secondary runway which is misleadingly referred to by the All it would take to derail the projection would be for a Airport as the ‘cross-wind runway’; misleadingly, because ‘tax and spend’ Prime Minister in the United Kingdom to it is roughly in line with the prevailing wind, which is more remove the Common Purse Agreement. That is something than can be said for the main runway, the one they want to that would destroy the finance system and it would throw extend. Let me read what the planning consultants wrote the whole economy into turmoil. Assuming there was an about extending the secondary runway, and I quote: increase in prosperity with time, how many more trips per year would the residents of this country wish to make to one ‘Extending the cross-wind runway is not practical due to the land of the neighbouring islands? There must be a saturation point topography constraints and environmentally undesirable due to the at which people decide they do not actually want to travel potential extent of the construction required into Castletown Bay.’ more than they already do. The Airport is no doubt projecting the increase of tourist What exactly do they say about the option of extending passenger numbers, but the number of hotel beds on the the runway inland? Not a lot, and I would say, especially Island is decreasing year-on-year. There is something missing bearing in mind all the feasibility studies we have paid for. as far as the logic. We need realistic figures before we go In fact, I would not say that the explanation would even get down the road of spending £40 million. many marks in a GCSE exam, let alone a dissertation for Then there is the argument of larger aircraft, something a doctorate, which the writer possesses. I will read what that I have, in the past, been very supportive of. Hon. the planning officer wrote in her report to the Planning Members know that the passenger numbers have increased in Committee: recent years, but aircraft sizes have not. In fact, the average ‘The extension of the cross-wind runway was not considered aircraft size has decreased as the number of routes and/or the practical due to the topography constraints and it was also considered frequency of flights has increased to cater for the convenience unnecessary due to the potential extension of construction required of passengers, as the competition between airlines has been into Castletown bay.’ increased. I think the argument that the runway extension is needed because certain aircraft types that may visit the Not a lot of critical analysing by the planning officer Island at Ronaldsway occasionally will suffer operational there, I would say. In fact, a good parrot could almost do as restrictions… well. This just illustrates the point I made earlier. Some of my constituents recently flew from the Isle of Explanations are just accepted, repeated by politicians Man to Madeira, a flight of nearly four hours, in a Boeing and civil servants, often without thought, analysing or 737, one of the aircraft types referred to, and every one of investigation – which is how we make so many mistakes. the 150 seats appeared to be occupied on both the outward Do not get me wrong. I would imagine the people and return journey. What greater capacity does the Isle of responsible for these quotes are intelligent, educated, Man Airport really need, as opposed to ‘want’? How much articulate, decent, hard-working, like thousands of civil is reasonable to be expected for the Manx taxpayer to servants that we have in this country. Very often, too often, contribute to these ambitions? These are some of the issues their bosses just want them to produce the paperwork rather that a Tynwald committee needs to explore. than constructive thought and critical audit. They would not Even in the event that this Hon. Court decides that the want to make a fuss: it might affect their promotion or even runway extension is desirable and affordable, the question disciplinary action taken against them. arises, which option should be selected? I am not convinced Just let us consider the effects on Government finances, that the best option has been chosen, or even that the matter the economy, the environment and the local population, if has been seriously discussed. Certainly, the issue has not the current proposals are allowed to proceed. I gather that been independently scrutinised. In the planning statement it will cost at least £20 million just to reclaim the land at it says that feasibility studies were undertaken, but all we the seaward end, before they start to build the runway and are told, in a single page of documentation devoted to it, is the safety areas at the top of it. The £20 million that we can what alternative options were considered and there were ill afford going off-Island, with negligible benefit for the conclusions. Manx economy. What other capital projects are going to Having gone to the trouble and the expense of carrying be delayed or cancelled because of it? The new school in out a feasibility study, as they claim, why did they not publish Onchan, perhaps the Ballasalla bypass. them, say in the appendix to the planning statement? Perhaps The construction work at Castletown end will not take they did not want us to see the studies, perhaps they did not so long as the Derbyhaven end of the runway, but it will want them to be scrutinised? Perhaps they had made up be closer to the houses on and around the A5. There will their minds, as to which option they wanted? For whatever be four years of work at night that will mean a lot of noise, reason – and the feasibility studies might have been a matter more than even Mr Houghton’s Noise Bill will cope with. of just going through the motions or ticking every box. The extra noise there will stop when the construction work Perhaps there was no feasibility study or maybe they just finishes, because the new taxi-way will be very close to the made one up on the back of an envelope or in their heads. airport boundary fence. Not only that, but the aircraft will Having spent, Eaghtyrane, 20 years in this Hon. Court, start their take-off runs much closer to the A5. none of these alternatives would surprise me. But, either way, The Airport documentation admits that mitigation we need to see them and a committee of Hon. Members needs measures will be required to protect the users of the A5 from to scrutinise them and listen to the independent opinion and the effects of jet blasts, but they are not specific. The Airport reach a conclusion to be debated in this Hon. Court before master plan states that they have already received complaints any more of our taxpayers’ money has been spent. about aircraft noise and these are likely to increase from the

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Castletown end when the runway is extended. The planning on the second runway would always tend to be affected by officer report mentions the likely increase in noise levels of crosswind, the situation is not acceptable to the Airport and up to five decibels. I understand a decibel is used as a noise it is a significant factor in choosing not to extend it.’ scale so that five decibels represents an increase in noise Eaghtyrane, really, but the meteorological data from level of more than three times. the Airport says a different story. Which one should we In the matter of increased complaints, I think the Airport believe, the tall tales or the scientific data? I just think how master plan is spot on, Eaghtyrane. I gather that most of much are we paying these consultants and are they telling the people that are affected will live in Brookfield Avenue, us porkies? Castletown. These are just more examples of why we need a Then there is the matter of the environmental impact, committee to investigate the whole affair. I could go on about especially with regard to the marine environment, which other examples I could refer to and plenty more are in the I know is of great concern to so many people. I gather it planning file, which I would urge Hon. Members to read. has been generally accepted that the environmental impact We really do need to bite the bullet on this one. We do not assessment that was carried out was totally inadequate and a want another white elephant or black hole and I feel, if we lot more work will need to be done. I find a particular aspect are just going to nod through this, Tynwald is an extension quite disturbing, bearing in mind the expense and the amount of the Council of Ministers in the hope of promotion at a of paperwork produced. later date, we do ourselves a disservice. We really must have better efficiencies and cost I would just like to conclude by quoting the words of effectiveness in Government. What is interesting is that the someone who wrote this on the internet about the planning Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry are quite report: scathing in their comments regarding the inaccuracies of the environmental impact assessment, and it would appear that, ‘It is all well and good stating the consequences of the proposals, but probably, they would prefer the development not to take place they do not properly address the underlying reason for the runway extension. My contention is that if the fundamental premises are wrong, at all. I welcome the fact that the Department of Agriculture, after that all else fails. As often with politicians, they start half way Fisheries and Forestry seem to be becoming more proactive down the road when they should address the very core of the situation. in their role as environmental protectors, rather than standing They accept blindly that the runway extension is necessary. It is not, back and allowing other Government departments and it is just an excuse to spend a budget surplus. If this is not, we should property developers to do what they want. return it to the good folk of the nation.’ Obviously, none of these negative factors would occur, or at least not to the same extent, if the secondary runway I am not saying that this is correct, I am just telling you was extended inland, instead of the current proposals. In what people are saying about this issue. addition, I believe that the construction time would be Hon. Members, no one will be happier than me to be considerably reduced, the costs would also be lowered – I proven wrong, but watching over 20 years plus, if you read could go on and on. your Hansard I know where the people will put their money. I will restrict myself to one important consideration and I realise there is a lot of hard work, but the investigation that is the Manx fiscal benefit: one of the recommendations needs to be done as part of the parliamentary process in a of a recent strategic review of the Manx construction real democracy, so let us start working to that end. industry – and it is a very important consideration in my I hope Hon. Members will support the motion standing opinion – when assessing the merits and cost effectiveness in my name. I beg to move. of various schemes. Quite obviously, if the secondary runway is extended the majority of the construction work could The President: Mr Malarkey. probably be handled by local contractors and workers, but if the current scheme goes ahead most of the fiscal benefit Mr Malarkey: I wish to second the motion and reserve will flow off the Island. This is a major consideration that my comments. the committee, I propose, should consider. Naturally, the Airport will push for their own plans and The President: Mr Braidwood, Hon. Member, Douglas make all sorts of statements, honest or otherwise, as they have East. done already to argue against the alternatives. I would argue that Hon. Members should treat anything they say with a large Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. pinch of salt, unless it is backed with independent, viable data. If we look at the motion and basically part 1(a), With the new administration let us start now, let us have good ‘whether and for what purposes or purpose a longer runway is necessary Government and let us have parliamentary democracy. or desirable at the Isle of Man Airport’, For example, when asked about the extending of the second runway, instead the Airport director is quoted in the Mr President, the Hon. Member for Onchan, once again, press as saying, ‘you would have to remove the hills as far seems to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. as Snaefell – it is just not feasible.’ However, Eaghtyrane, when local residents had asked him to see the data, to analyse Mr Karran: Like the MEA. and to back up his position, nothing was forthcoming. People deserve that, Eaghtyrane. They deserve their questions being Mr Braidwood: He was talking about passenger answered. numbers. This is nothing to do with passenger numbers He also told the local residents that the prevailing wind at all. The Isle of Man Airport adopts the standards and direction of the Airport was westerly, which is roughly recommendations emanating from the International Civil in the direction of the main runway, that the planning Aviation Organisation and the UK Civil Aviation Authority consultants wrote that, ‘because the prevailing wind landing and also the UK Department of Transport. This is for the safe

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 199 T124 and secure operation of a public transport airport. Mr Karran: Absolute nonsense. At the moment, recommendations emanating from the International Civil Aviation Organisation, through the CAA, Mr Braidwood: No, it is not nonsense, Hon. Member have recommended increases in the runway end safety areas for Onchan. You would have to extend out to sea. That is the for all UK airports. This is likely to be mandatory by the end best option. They have done that in the Shetland Isles this of the year 2010. The runway end safety areas (RESA) are summer. They have had to extend their runway at both ends provided at the end of each runway as an area where, when of the runway, going out to sea. So, financially, the best option planes either overshoot or overrun, this is to minimise the is to go out to sea and not to the west, inland. risks when they are landing. Then we turn over and see part (2), The main runway at Ronaldsway is quite short: in actual ‘That no further public expenditure or financial obligations in relation to fact, the cross-runway is a lot shorter. When you look at the proposed runway extension should be incurred or undertaken until runways, they have a look at what they call a TORA, which is Tynwald has debated the recommendations of the Select Committee now the take-off run available. The one at Ronaldsway is just over appointed and made a decision on the options recommended’. 1,700 metres. This has constrained aircraft type, payloads and range that can be operated from Ronaldsway. And that report is in July 2007. So, we debate that. The RESA dimensions at present are 92 metres by The Department of Transport then has to come back to 90 metres. The recommendations coming in for the new Tynwald with recommendations, which probably would increases are 150 metres wide and 240 metres long. not be the October, probably November, December. So, we Therefore, the runway has to be increased at each end by are a year behind schedule already. We cannot wait. If the 150 metres. If the runway is not extended, then the increase recommendations for RESA are brought in as mandatory at the in the RESA has to be incorporated in the main runway, so, end of 2010, we have to get on with extending the runway. therefore, you are reducing the take-off run available by As far as I am concerned, I will not be supporting this 300 metres. If you do that, that severely limits the type of motion and I hope the majority of Members of this Hon. Court aircraft which can land. will not support it, either. Your charter aircraft, such as the Boeing 737, 757, will Thank you, Mr President. not be able to land, the Airbus 319 and 320 will not be able to land, all your business jets will not be able to land. Yes, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen. the 146 can land: however, that is going to be phased out when FlyBe take over the majority of the flight connections Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. from BA Connect and they will use what they call an I would have hoped that the Department of Transport Embraer 195, which will not be able to land if the runway would have supported this motion, as it would have given the is not extended. Department even more reason to go ahead with the extension We also have a BA engineering works down at if the results came back that way. All I can see in the motion is Ronaldsway which FlyBe and BA have now put up for sale. that we see whether it is correct or not. It is not to see whether The engineering works are carried out on our Embraer 145 we are going to do it or we are not. It is not going to throw it and they are trying to sell it as a going concern, so therefore, out. It is saying whether we are making the right decision. any interested parties, if they know that the runway is not going to be extended, which means then that the take-off Mrs Crowe: At what cost? area is reduced, the Embraer 145 which they maintain will not be able to land, therefore nobody will take on that Mr Cregeen: Many of the people in the area cannot afford engineering works. £1.5 million into a survey. It is this Court’s decision whether The only plane which will be able to land is the Dash we can look into it for them and there should not be a problem S8 which is provided by EuroManx and which carries 46 with it. (Mr Karran: Hear, hear.) I would hope that Members passengers. The other planes will be small ones, such as will support this. It is not stopping the extension. It is just 30 seaters. So, the Hon. Member for Onchan calls this our coming up with a report to see whether we need it or not. economy can ill afford… We cannot afford not to do it. It has It is very nice to have everything brand new so that to be extended. Otherwise, you will see all business traffic, when people come here, they say, ‘Oh, isn’t the Isle of Man all traffic, reduced. wonderful?’ But there is no infrastructure. Yes, we have got to There is also a new plane that FlyBe are hoping to have this brand new runway. I have got figures here, passenger introduce, as well, apart from the Embraer 195 – what figures for the Isle of Man – 2002. The actual figures of they call a Q8-400 – and that could not land. That is why, passengers were 729,000, and estimated in 2015, of 1,418,000. first of all, the runway has to be extended. That is part (a) There is no other infrastructure being put into the area. Now, answered. surely the Department should be looking at it as a whole and Part (b) – the various options for achieving it and whether not just, ‘Oh, let’s have a brand new runway.’ They have got the plans proposed, under consideration by the Government, developments up the road. They have got development down are apt for the purpose. The Hon. Member for Onchan the south of the Island. We should look at infrastructure with maintains, ‘Oh, it should be the cross runway’, which is, any of these proposals. as I have already said, much shorter than the main runway, I will be supporting Mr Karran’s motion. Thank you. which is just over 1,700 metres. You have got two options. You either extend to sea or you The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. extend to the west. If you extend to the west, then you have got the Douglas/Castletown Road. Do you move the road? Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Do you create an underpass? All the houses would have to I will try not to bore the Court too long because, be demolished in the flight path. obviously, we have got three former Ministers of Transport

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost 200 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day and one current, newly-appointed Minister of Transport in it serves. Therefore, we have an Airport to be proud of. the Court today. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) However, this We have extensions and work being carried out to try and programme was developed in my time in the Department and modernise the 40-plus-year-old concrete apron areas. We I feel it appropriate to try and rebut some of the comments have an extension to the departure lounge because, in any made once again by the Hon. Member for Onchan, who period when there are difficulties for flying, it can become has used a scattergun approach to try and bring into this the like a cattle market in the departure lounge. We have ongoing quality of our personnel, of our consultants, of the politicians requirements to try and look at the whole of the infrastructure over the three Departments that have been involved in it. in the area, which the Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen, talks about. He has raised a number of legitimate concerns that could And yet, travel to and from the Isle of Man remains one of be attached to any capital scheme ever brought forward the most contentious issues for the people of the Island and before the people or the politicians on the Island. And, it probably always will be. indeed, some years ago, I believe Mr Karran was supportive The reality of the airline industry, as we have seen over of this principle and when this has come at various stages to recent years, is that it is extremely volatile and fluctuates the Court, he has, actually, been the only dissenting voice to between different airlines considering what the future the proposals, which are not here for the first time today. direction of air travel will be. Well reported in the media, This has been something which has gone through and, some two or three years ago, was the prospect of a low-cost at each stage, been approved by Tynwald as an urgent carrier coming to the Island. On our existing runway, the 737s requirement. The reason I say ‘urgent’ is that the timing of referred to by the Hon. Member for Onchan are possibly able, this scheme was coinciding with the necessary reinstatement with some restrictions, to operate from our runway under the of the runway surface. Therefore, we were looking at this current agreements on the end safety areas. some seven or eight years in advance of the known time that We have heard from my successor that that is time we would need to resurface our existing runways. limited. We know it is going to happen. We know they will As Hon. Members would realise, the safety values and reduce our runway and ours will then become one of the requirements for air travel particularly are constantly under shortest runways in Britain. The option, therefore, available scrutiny and we know that the runway, which has been laid is not so much what planes can take off or land here, but for some years, needs to be upgraded round about the 2011 which airports would actually wish to service a small period. We, therefore, had a window to try and develop population with small flights coming in and the necessary options and schemes to see whether it was appropriate for impact, therefore, on the cost of travel to the people from the Island to extend the runway, in order to tie it in at the the Island and, indeed, to the Island. same time and the most cost-effective period for resurfacing The business case to develop this extended runway is the runway. based not on facilitating necessarily a population of 80,000, The Hon. Member rubbishes the principle of whether this increasing the amount of journeys they take, but in actually has actually been given enough thought as to the options. I, increasing the amount of inbound traffic which is currently indeed, have heard from one or more of the objectors who denied to us by some of the low-cost carriers. That is where have obviously assisted him in this case today. Yes, there are one of the arguments would be. Do we, as an Island, wish people in the Derbyhaven area and in the Castletown area to see an easyJet or a Ryanair type of airline coming to who are opposed to this development for their own reasons, our shores? We know that Ryanair cannot, and will not, which is perfectly understandable, but are now raising some land on our existing runway. easyJet currently could, in red herrings to try and pretend that this is something that the circumstances, but in order to do that, we would have to ask Department, for their own purpose, have been deliberately if we are prepared for the impact of large numbers of people misleading myself, my successor, the new Minister, by giving coming to our Island. misinformation purely to try and enhance the facilities for Certainly, when I was in the Department, the idea of the officers of the Airport. having 120 people on a flight coming to the Isle of Man in The Chief Executive of the Department of Transport, November concerned me, that I could not see why people who has been overseeing this scheme, is a gentleman by the would do that. Yet, anybody analysing air travel – and name of Mr Ian Thompson, formerly of the Capital Projects certainly the easyJet model – indicates that they are the Unit, and fairly well regarded by all politicians within this catalyst for the development and enhancement of tourism Chamber when he was in that situation. There is nobody in and associated infrastructure developments, wherever they Government, I would tend to say, has got more experience have gone within the European area. or knowledge of the capital schemes than Mr Ian Thompson. So, we have a number of conflicting pressures, a number And anybody who knows the gentleman, to consider that of people who consider that, either on environmental he would roll over merely to try and develop something grounds or on their particular domestic situations, they are as part of an empire does both him and the Department a opposed to this extension. That is why this Court sanctioned disservice. £1.5 million, not just to produce worthy paper. Far more The Airport Director will be retiring from his post within environmental damage is caused by air travel than the reports the next few months, which has been well advertised in the that have been produced for this. recent newspapers. Therefore, there is absolutely no vested Now, there is an argument we may wish to go down: interest in the Airport Director progressing this scheme. whether we wish to discourage air travel for people on the The current Chief Minister, when he was Minister of Isle of Man because of the environmental damage. But Transport, had a five-stage plan, I believe, for development are we really going to say to the people of our Island that of the Airport. I believe it is one now where most of us can they are going to actually be disadvantaged and penalised hold our heads up in comparable jurisdictions and say that because of our intent to try and protect one aspect of the it is not excessive, as we see in one of the Channel Islands. environment? It is, however, proportionate and appropriate for the people All of these aspects have been covered in what the Member

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 201 T124 for Onchan dismisses within the £1.5 million of consultancy The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba. work and expert work which has taken place. I am not aware of when the Hon. Member went into the Planning Committee The Minister for Transport (Mr Anderson): Thank or the Planning Department to read through all of this, but, you, Mr President. of course, he is right. The professional documentation that I would like to start, Mr President, by thanking the last is there is highly technical and is produced by professional two Hon. Members, who have a lot more knowledge in people, experts in their field. That is why it costs so much, this area than myself and have, quite clearly, put forward because we have not got the skills on Island to evaluate all a strong case today why we should not be entertaining this of the implications of this scheme. motion. But I would like to make reference to one or two of What I think all of us are aware of is that failure to the things the Hon. Member for Onchan said when moving take action – failure of Government to govern in order to his motion originally. make difficult decisions, which will not be without their One thing he is right about: there has been a lot of time problems – without having unanimous support, but in order and effort invested in this scheme and, quite clearly, the for the greater good to actually allow travel to and from the reasons why this scheme is going ahead have already been Isle of Man, a continuation now and into the future, further well portrayed by the previous two speakers. The paperwork delay on this is unlikely to provide any further information that the Hon. Member refers to is necessary because it is a than is already publicly available. It is going through the highly technical application and that is why you need a very normal process. professional planning application. No doubt, if we had a very I would urge Hon. Members to consider the importance weak planning application the Department would be getting of actually making decisions to move forward, which is not heavily criticised. saying we are committed to the £40 million scheme because, The Hon. Member makes mention of facts and details that as we are all aware, the Treasury Minister and his Department have been withheld. If the Hon. Member can state what facts are currently having to look at what moneys are available for and details have been withheld by the Department, I would capital schemes. This is an expensive but essential prerequisite very kindly look into that for him, but my information is that to making those decisions, to get the data, get the information, the Hon. Member has not availed himself of the opportunity get the opportunities. There is no viable alternative, both to contact the Department about this RESA scheme and has financial and practical, than to extend to sea. not asked questions – so he has not had answers! Unless I say that with more confidence than most Hon. Members the Hon. Member asks the Department, we will not be able in the Court would, because I lived through this for two to help him. and a half years. Within that investigation we looked at I am very pleased to be able to say that the Department the options of Jurby, we looked at the options of on-land has invited Tynwald Members to another presentation on extension – and the implications and the costs of going in the runway extension on 6th February in the Barrool Suite that direction are totally prohibitive. This, expense-wise, is and I hope most Members will take the opportunity, that going to be almost prohibitive for us to find the amounts of are not up to speed with this scheme, to avail themselves money to bring this scheme forward, but I would urge Hon. of that opportunity and to see the reasons and the detail of Members to consider that, if we are talking about an Island the scheme. which has the ‘freedom to flourish’, to attract and be seen The Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen, wants the motion to on the international footing as a modern jurisdiction, if we be accepted here today, but then goes on to say he thinks are restricted to second-class airports in the United Kingdom that it will justify that the scheme should go ahead. Quite that would be able to travel with small-seater planes at great obviously, we have had all the investigations, we have had expense to come to our Island, then that will be downgrading the planning application, we have now gone to planning our future prospects. appeal. Inevitably, any further delay will actually add to I would urge Hon. Members to allow us to carry on with further costs. the job. You will all have the opportunity of making further This scheme will take 10 years from instigation to contributions on the debate when the Department comes completion. I would plead with this Court today that it does forward next. not accept this motion, comes to our presentation on 6th But at this stage, this is an opportunity being brought February. If at that stage you are still not convinced, then you forward by the Hon. Member to merely try and ensure that, have, maybe, a further opportunity then to come forward. once it is developed, he will have been the person who said, I would just like, Mr President, to put a few facts into ‘I was against that.’ Hansard at this stage. The RESA scheme is our response We will not hear a word from him, if this is the most to the new recommended international safety standard to successful development that allows the Island to flourish in provide runway end safety areas at both ends of the main the future, but it is always easier to oppose everything, then, runway, to the dimensions necessary to meet the UK and when something goes wrong, you can latch back onto it and international safety standards and to comply with current say, ‘I told you so.’ industry best practice. If this scheme does go ahead, we have already the It is essential that our runway be improved, both for parliamentary mechanisms to ensure that we learn the lessons very obvious safety reasons and because it will become from it. This, in my view, is an attempt to stop Government a mandatory standard. In response to aircraft overrun getting on with its job and I would urge Members, please, accidents throughout the world, the International Civil this has had a long gestation period. Many politicians and Aviation Organisation has responded by recommending a professional officers, both in direct employ and consultants, new standard. The aircraft types involved in these worldwide have determined this is the way forward. At some stage accidents include all the aircraft types that currently serve we have to move on. I would urge you not to support the our Airport. motion today. Our runway scheme has followed the capital procedures

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost 202 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day and it is currently at stage 3, planning and submission of Mr Downie: Ryanair operate from there. the business case. It has previously been considered by successive DoT administrations, by Council of Ministers, by Mr Cannan: – in any great number – allow me to Treasury, by the Economic Development Committee and by finish – to this magnificent airport. I just quote that as a Tynwald. Tynwald previously approved £1.5 million of capital cautionary tale, nothing more. expenditure to bring the scheme to full feasibility study. What I think in this debate needs to convince everybody It is receiving full planning consideration. A full is a committee to look at the matter and to come to Tynwald business case has been lodged with the Treasury. A full and to say yes, everything is in order, because the Ministers environmental impact assessment has been completed and have said… Well, you know, the Treasury Minister might provided as part of the planning application. A full public say that we have not the money. Well, why are we going consultation exhibition was mounted in November 2005. forward if Mr Shimmin says, ‘Of course, it all depends on The understanding of response from all corners of the Island the Treasury Minister.’ Those were his words. What I am community is that for a major Island capital scheme, there saying is, let us go forward, convince all of us that it is the were only seven letters to the planners and only three of those right way. were objections. There is now only one objection, which the We can have all the experts, we can go to the Barrool DoLGE Minister has accepted as an appeal. Suite, we can listen to another presentation, but the people If this project does not go ahead, existing aircraft will be giving the presentation and all the experts are not making challenged in terms of operations and natural growth will the final decision. It is going to be made here and that is why be constrained. The day it becomes a mandatory standard, we are here, to make the final decision. we will have to reduce the operational length of our existing I do not doubt for one moment the competence of all the runway, unless we have taken action. This would lead to a experts and when you employ a variety of experts, you get loss of key business routes, including the Gatwick route, a variety of opinion. You ask for an opinion from two sets and, potentially, this would result in short-haul aircraft and of lawyers and you will probably get two opinions – not short-haul destinations, with a subsequent increase in air always, but sometimes you will. All that, I think, is in the fares. This would be a complete disaster for the economy of best interests of all of us and Tynwald is for three independent the Island by effectively excluding all but the smaller airlines Members, voted by Tynwald, to be convinced and present and aircraft and greatly reducing the number of airlines that a short report that what has been presented is truly… there might be prepared to serve the Island. is no alternative. In conclusion, Mr President, I believe Mr Karran is Otherwise, by the constant and strong promotion by the challenging the whole method of Government process for Ministers – and it is their job, but it could cause those doubts. large capital schemes, rather than our particular DoT runway People begin to wonder, ‘Well, they’re all at it. Why is there scheme, which has been handled very properly throughout. no sort of doubt anywhere?’ There is doubt in here, but I want Our runway scheme will have taken 10 years from inception to make it quite clear I am not against it. I do not oppose it. to completion, which is why the IACO gives a period of grace If it is absolutely necessary, then so be it, but when we are before a new standard becomes mandatory. told that air traffic numbers are going to, I think, double in Mr President, I see no reason for supporting the motion 10 years, then we will have a larger population to deal with in the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran’s, name. There them. One moment we are talking about immigration control, is no excuse for us to delay matters further. we are talking about residency, and the next moment we are saying, ‘Ah, but the number of people flying will double.’ The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for To me, there does not seem to be a consistency. When a Michael. report says that in 20 or 30 years 2.5 million passengers will go through the airport, great, we will need a bigger airport, Mr Cannan: Mr President, I want to make it quite clear we will need to deal with them, but to have that number of that I am not against the runway extension. I am not sure that passengers go through, you will have to have here a large I am completely in favour of it. And I say this: we have heard proportion of people. That is not rocket science; you will a very strong case put by former Ministers and Ministers have to have it. why it should happen and much of what they say, I am quite One of the things at the moment that I am advised, is that sure, is very relevant, but Tynwald needs to be convinced more and more businesses are using video screening because as a body, because the final decision, Mr President, will be the technology has so improved for video-conferencing here to spend the £40 million. when, previously, businessmen were flying backwards and It is going to take 10 years, we have been told, to come forwards from London, and that is a fact. Technology does to fruition. Four months or five months of a Tynwald change. committee, independent of the Hon. Member for Onchan, to I just give you an example: 22 years ago in this Court, convince us all – and I would like to see this as a unanimous nobody understood that mobile phones would be what they decision – that we are going the right way and spending the are today – money. If I could just very quickly refer to a cautionary tale. Mr Anderson: Or electronic voting. I think it was about 20 years ago that a priest in Ireland convinced the Dublin Government to build a big airport in, Mr Cannan: – and that is how it has all developed. The I think it was Knock. Millions were spent and the wonderful first monopoly given to Manx Telecom in 1985 made no case was put up that it was essential to the economy etc. I provision for the advances in science. That is a fact. What I am not sure whether any planes now fly – am saying – and I will conclude, Mr President – err on the side of caution. It is no skin off the Council of Ministers’ Mrs Crowe: A Ryanair destination. nose, if they can say there was an independent committee of

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Tynwald had a look at it, came back, reported that everything know, as the Hon. Member for Malew and Santon knows, was in order. There would be then no reason for a unanimous it is a big issue there and is causing great concern. If you decision to support this massive project. want to assuage local people, I think you would be wise to vote for the committee. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. I would not vote for the latter part and I would urge Mr President, if he would, perhaps – and maybe I am too late Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. now – to vote in two parts, to keep the financial resolution It is not often I rise and say the previous speaker has – and out of it, but the first part is both reasonable and a way of forgive me if I use an unparliamentary expression – taken the conducting an update on what is going, in the interests of this spit out of my own mouth, but what Mr Cannan has said is Court, and I put that to the Court for consideration. absolutely right. When I read the resolution, I was minded very much not to support it, because of the last part, which The President: Chief Minister. says no more expenditure, tra-la, tra-la, and I said, you will remember, when we voted for the money to go for the The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr drawing up of the plans, you were engaging on a long haul President. that was going to be very expensive. I still do not detract one I suppose I have to say, as a former Minister for Transport, word from that and I do not detract one word from the work naturally I have an interest in this, but I think it is worth that has been done on this scheme up to date. putting on record that my interest, whilst I was Minister for What I do say is, Hon. Members, if you look at the Transport, actually came at the very end of the period of my resolution – and it is what you are voting for, it is on the term in that office, where, in fact, we had been made aware paper – it actually just says set up a committee of three by the civil aviation authorities that this was a requirement ‘whether and for what purpose or purposes a longer runway that was being fed through the system and was going to is necessary or desirable at the Isle of Man Airport and … come into effect in the years whenever it was that have been the various options for achieving it and whether the plans quoted. Quite rightly, because of the implications of these proposed or under consideration by the Government are apt changes – which do not only affect the Isle of Man, affect for the purpose,’ and to report back in six months. It is an all airports – we were all given advance warning of, I think, audit trail, in effect, of what we are doing. about 10 years, or something like that, to know about it, so Who is this committee going to ask? Let us get real in this we could start the process of looking at how to deal with the world. It is alright for the Ministers, and it was no surprise to issues, in our case for the Isle of Man. see one, two, three, the present Minister, the former Minister Whether we like it or not, Mr President, we have a and the Minister before that, getting up and saying… They situation where our Airport is near the sea and that, in itself, would, anyway, wouldn’t they? They have got to support is creating part of the problem because we have, on one side, their initial planning, because they believe it to be so. There Castletown – my constituency, but by the by, we have houses, is nothing wrong with that, (A Member: Hear, hear.) but it is we have properties – and, on the other side of it, we have no surprise, and for the former Minister, Mr Shimmin, to say the sea and that is the way the runway runs for the Isle of Mr Karran is using a scattergun and drawing the thing – he Man – the main runway – which, of course, is vital for our used exactly the same tactics. (Mr Karran: Absolutely.) business. Therefore, we have a greater cost that is going to How can you say, on the one hand, Mr Karran is wrong to fall on the taxpayer if we are going to retain an airport – I do it and imply – when he implies if you vote for this – you think it is very important to keep this in mind – that can at are voting against the present chief executive? I have worked least retain the size of aircraft we enjoy today. with the present chief executive on capital schemes. No- This has nothing at all to do with passenger numbers. We one, I do not think, in this Court has worked closer with the could invest all this money and we could see the bottom fall gentleman than I have at the National Sports Centre, at the out of the passengers coming to the Isle of Man, or it can go Villa Marina. I can rattle them all off. the other way. It does not matter. It does for ourselves, as a So I have worked with him, I know him, I have got country, but in terms of this investment that aspect of it is confidence in him. I have got confidence in him down the not a consideration. If we even want to retain the passenger road, but this resolution, in effect, if you take the last part numbers we have today, then that is an issue to say we need about the financial – do not spend any more money – I to do something with our runway, so we can have the type do think that is unreasonable. The first part, if you want a of planes that will meet that requirement. committee to look at something, it is better to have it focused. I think the thing that needs to be made clear, as well, A small number looking at it intensely, asking pertinent is that, if we do not extend our runway it will impact on questions, they may very well come up (A Member: Hear, everything to do with our way of life and, in fact, how we hear.) and say everything is right. succeed and survive into the future. We cannot get away from If you want 31 of us to go to a meeting and expect to that because, whether we like it or not, everybody wants to really get to the heel of the hunt on this, that is nonsense. travel by air, or the vast majority, and business certainly, we It does not work like that. Life does not work like that. So know – and we do it, as Government, and everybody else this vehicle is reasonable. Set three people to have a look at does it – travels, by the majority, in business terms, by air, it and report back in six months. Meanwhile, it continues. simply because they can get to all parts of the British Isles, It is not holding anything up. There is nothing lost. Nothing or wherever. whatsoever is lost. The other way back to us in a reasonable timescale, The other thing I think you ought to take note of is when and we all know, Mr President, as Ministers, as Members the present Member of the constituency where this is taking of Departments and as Members generally, that business is place… I know it impinges on Castletown and the Chief moving faster and, yes, we have telecommunications, yes, Minister will, more than likely, have a view on it, but I do we have video conferencing, yes, we have different ways of

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost 204 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day communicating, but there is still a lot to be said for sitting doing its job. It has a job to do and it would be discourteous round a table, eye-to-eye contact to deal with issues. Also to Tynwald if, in fact, we then came to Tynwald and said we know that one of the things that we are successful at ‘now we are going on’. is getting people to the Isle of Man to look to do business We have got, of course, the motion saying July 2007. who, when they see the Isle of Man, get a feel for the place Hon. Members, we know how the dates work. July 2007 and decide to invest in the Isle of Man. You do not get that is because that is the date the Member has put down. Fine, without coming here. that is his choice, but if the select committee says it has not They are all side bits, but very importantly for our own completed its work, we all know the chairman of the select people, just look at the figures of how many people now committee will come and make a statement and say, ‘We from the Isle of Man go away for short breaks, long breaks. have not completed our work and I hope to be back here Again, some go by sea but a majority now go by air simply within whatever.’ because of the convenience and because, in real terms, it is We have all seen select committees, with the best will worth it to them in saving time, the cost and so on. So we in the world, trying to come back in six months and they have to consider all of that when that comes along. have taken two years. That is the reality and we are here: An important issue to remember, Mr President, is that we are the ones who work the system. We know how it Tynwald has not made a decision yet whether to invest this works. All I am saying is keep that in mind. There are plenty money. That decision will come to Tynwald at the appropriate of experienced Members in here who know that and I am time and I believe that this motion that is before us, in fact, saying this for them and also for other Members who have starts to introduce a new system to say that Government is not had that experience. They will learn as time goes on there – because Government has a responsibility to Tynwald and that is fine. to make its case when it comes for the money, rightly – but Mr President, the scheme for the Airport is a difficult one, to say, ‘let’s put a new system in here of a select committee but it is a critical one for the viability of the Isle of Man. to examine this one.’ I am sure Mr Lowey, when he was on the Harbour Board I can see the next one, and the next one, and the next one, in the old days of the Harbour Board, they had exactly the exactly the same argument. Bemahague School: let us have arguments – I remember lots of them – about extending the three Members look at Bemahague School! pier. Can I remind Hon. Members, that pier was £11 million The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey, I was quite (Mr Lowey: Yes.) in 1977. We are talking of extending the interested and surprised, I suppose. He has often said this airport for £50 million in the year 2010, or whatever it is. So, to me, that yesterday he was a different man. Yesterday, on again, if you were to get the costs in real terms, that means the TT Grandstand was the big argument why it had to be that the pier was dearer than what this extension is going to done. be in real terms. I bet you it is not far off.

Mr Lowey: No problem. Mr Lowey: No, not far off.

The Chief Minister: Now, okay, the cost was – The Chief Minister: So we have to keep that in mind. Of course, the Hon. Member for Michael I am sure got Mr Karran: That was £½ million. a little bit excited when he heard that there had even been consideration given to extending Jurby, but, unfortunately, The Chief Minister: The cost was £½ million. The as we all know, the infrastructure is greater than just the principle is the same. The decisions that Hon. Members will runway. The runway is actually the bit that the plane needs, have to make are just as important whether we are investing but all the other bits behind that are really the expensive bits £½ million or £50 million. of the infrastructure: all the technology, all the radar, all the You should not treat any of it lightly. What you have to stuff that goes with it, the passenger facilities. We have been do is decide whether it is the right thing to do, whether all investing in passenger facilities, as the previous Minister, Mr the information you have is enough to make that decision Braidwood, and the other previous Minister, Mr Shimmin, on and whether you are satisfied, in the long term, it is in said, and we have been doing that for nearly 15 years. the best interests of the Isle of Man to do that investment, I will remind Hon. Members who have been here long whatever that money is. So the actual amount is irrelevant to enough, Mr President, our harbour and Sea Terminal was a the job that Members have to do. The amount may influence disgrace at one stage to the Isle of Man, as was the Airport, us in what decision we make, but the principles of the way because we had not invested, because the argument was, we make that decision in terms of its value, its investment ‘Oh, well, we haven’t the money, it isn’t the thing to do, etc, the principles of that are the same. blah, blah.’ In fairness, times were tight (Mrs Crowe: Mr President, timing is an issue on this one. Whether Yes.) but it was a chicken-and-egg because we used to get Members like it or not, we have not got the luxury of saying, complaints about the state of it, or them, I should say, the ‘Well, let’s just settle back a bit,’ and with the greatest of state of both areas. respect, those of us who have been here long enough, Mr We all remember gate 8 at the Airport, the only gate we President, know when a select committee is set up then the had. It was a wooden hut, basically. A good job done to try select committee has a job to do and Government steps back and fill in a gap, but that is the sort of standard we had, and from interfering with that work. we all know the standards required now are higher. That is another side of the issue. Mrs Crowe: Interim report. The Hon. Member, Mr Karran, is making the point that here is a proposal by Government to invest in extending the The Chief Minister: I certainly would not – and runway to meet the requirements of external forces who say Members know this – drive regardless of a select committee if you want to fly aircraft into the Isle of Man in the future,

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 205 T124 you will have to do this or you will have to reduce the size of are going to end up where the Minister brings it forward. your aircraft. That is clearly a responsibility of Government, Keep that in mind. on behalf of Tynwald, to do. Executive Government have I can only say what I believe, Mr President. Let been back here for the money to do it. It has carried out its Government govern and let Tynwald do its job of making role. It is continuing to do that and, as Hon. Members know, Government justify what it wishes to expend on behalf of it will come back here to justify that expenditure. the people of the Isle of Man. Let the Department get on There was a little bit of light made about a presentation. with its job. It is a big job. It is an important one. We need The Hon. Member for Michael said something like the to be careful and it is, whether we like it or not, time critical, presentation will take place, but it is not those making the because it is not in our own destiny. presentation who are making the decision. Of course it is not. They will only make a presentation and Hon. Members The President: Mr Karran to reply. know we will question the Minister, and his other Members and his officers and the consultants, if we are not content Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to say that I with the information they are putting before us. Again, we think that the Chief Minister’s response to this has been very all know how we can go and get further information if we mature and, as I say, a much more mature way. Obviously, so wish. being the Speaker of the House of Keys in the last five years, A select committee has a role. Members know I have at least, he is starting to see the reasons why we are going supported select committees on many occasions. I have no down the road we are today. I think that is very good. problem with that, but I do not see the role of Tynwald Court I must take issue with him on a few points about as getting in before Government has finalised its scheme to the issue. Yes, I have to admit that I do think that the bring to Tynwald Court. That is the role of Government. It parliamentary system does need to be changed, but I make is here to lead the Isle of Man forward and it is important a categorical assurance to this Hon. Court that I do not that the Department and executive Government are trying think that everything should go to select committee. What to do that. I am concerned about – I am not criticising the amount of Again, Members know that we may be executive paperwork, Eaghtyrane – what I am criticising more than Government. I am now Chief Minister. That does not anything is, have the right questions been answered? mean that I suddenly have a transplant and everything is When I said, through this Report, if nothing else happens wonderful. We still ask the same questions. We still ask and the Executive nods this through today, at least, maybe, questions just the same – same in Departments. Nobody they will look at the things. I am sorry that the new Minister, changes. Other Members – all the Members are the same, at the present time, was not listening to me in the debate in their Departments. They do their work of scrutiny within about the questions I was asking, the conflicts about the their Departments and they will ask the questions. The same statements that were made by the Airport Director, not giving happens here. the information, the issues about the cross wind, the issues But the important thing is that there is a clear responsibility about the actual effect of, as far as the present proposal. on the Minister of Transport, the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Why was there nothing in the Report about a foot high about and his team of politicians and his officers and all those who developing inland? are working for them, the consultants, to make sure that they I do think it is disappointing because, unfortunately, I am make the case that this is the right thing to do. To criticise a always classed as one of the lefties in here, but the fact is lot of paperwork is, in fact, easy to do because you have got that the ends do not justify the means. I do think that when a choice. It is easy to criticise a lot and it is easy to criticise Mr Braidwood talks about, ‘Oh, we will have to take away a little – to say you have not looked at it enough. the A2 and we will have to...’ If you look at the plan, you But what is important is that this is a major scheme. It have got room (Interjection) by the industrial estate. The is going to impact on the environment for Derbyhaven in point is what I am concerned about, Eaghtyrane, is that I do that area. We know that. We have always known that and, feel that we are having that pressure. If the pressure is on whether we like it or not, if we are going to have the Island now, because of the time constraints, what is the pressure viable for doing business, for looking after our own people that is going to be on after the presentation in three, four, for air travel, and to enjoy, at least, the type of size of aircraft five months’ time? that we now enjoy, we are going to have very little choice There is going to be more pressure on that. I, actually, on this, very little choice at all. agree with the Ard-shirveishagh. We do need to make sure Clearly, the responsibility is on the Minister to make that we have to honour our civil aviation standards. I think sure that what is proposed, what is being suggested, the none of us in this Court do not understand that, but what we expenditure of the money, is the right thing to do for the Isle need to do is understand whether we need the Rolls Royce of Man. He will have to make that case here in Tynwald Court standard, or we need the A35 standard, or do we need the at the final stage and Tynwald will decide whether or not they Ford Capri standard? support that. If they do not, then so be it and you accept the consequences. But to put a select committee in at this stage, Mr Downie: We don’t set the standards. you are actually introducing a new procedure, which will not stop at this. It will go into every capital scheme, because the Mr Karran: I think the problem we have in this Court principle of what the Hon. Member for Onchan is trying to and the track record of Members in this Court who have do is absolutely right. Do not be kidded that it is not, because been in executive Government has been a matter of we have he is talking about how much it is costing. ended up… One of the things I have fought for… and I take I am sorry that is not the case. The issue will be the great disappointment, but I am used to it, from the Member principle of a select committee to examine every capital for West Douglas, the way he carries on. scheme of Government before we get to the stage where we One of the things I have fought for years about is the

Airport runway extension – Investigation into necessity – Motion lost 206 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day more they spend, they get, as consultants. I have to admit, do not want to end up having to buy a load of houses at the after years of fighting that corner, trying to get that corner Castletown end, like we are ending up with the White Hoe. addressed, we finally see that that issue is being addressed. We need to be pro-active. I am not sure whether it is implemented, as it is supposed to So, when the Ard-shirveishagh says this is a new be, but it is addressed. But the point is that what concerns parliamentary system, I do not see it as a new parliamentary me is… the bottom line is that I actually, have always system. The Hon. Member talks about parliamentary supported – and I must also take issue with the Member for democracy. This Hon. Court is not an extension of executive West Douglas – when he said, ‘Oh, he voted against the last Government. It might have been for the last 15 years, but we one.’ I voted against the last proposal because of the cost. I are trying to change that. I would say that him saying about was told that a reasonable amount of money could have been the issue of – because the issue is so important, to just vote looked at for a tenth of what they were on about, maybe a it down when it comes to the day. Because the Grandstand little bit more, as far as the £1.5 million, from people in the thing is £0.5 million and that is an issue. There are major industry. That was the reason. factors. There are things that we have got to work together. I, actually, am a convert, as far as having this issue We have got three hundred and odd jobs down there – good debated in here today, because I objected to the Airport. paid jobs – that we all have to work as a team to protect. I I wanted the extension of the runway done before the want to work as part of that team, but what I do not want fancy terminal – nice plaques, nice buildings – but the real is a whitewash. I do not want a situation where we throw things are extending the runway. After listening to all the this out again and, as the Hon. Member for West Douglas information, reading the information that was put in front of says, ‘He is right again after the event. He is always voting me, I have to say I am very concerned. I am very concerned against...’ He does not say the things I vote for. when I listen to the Minister for the Treasury telling us how Hon. Members, I hope that this Court will see this motion hard up, how we have not got enough money, that we are as the start of a parliamentary process, not to infringe on the going to have to tighten our belts. Executive to the point of stopping the capital programme What are we doing here today? What we are doing here but to actually have more information, so that we do not end today is going to end up with a situation where, yes, we up with the likes of White Hoe, the IRIS, the MEA, where will lose the select committee and, even if we get it, we will we are all rushed in because, if it is a problem now, in six more than likely end up with people on it who do not want to months’ time, or a year’s time when they come back, it will investigate it. But if it was such a ridiculous issue, I would be a bigger problem then to stop the wheel turning, as far as have thought that the Government would want to highlight the issue is concerned. it and try to rub my nose in it, as far as to prove me wrong. I hope Hon. Members will support the motion in my That also concerns me because that would have happened, name. This is about the national good. It is not about Peter if it would have been the case. Karran. I cannot get a vote in Malew or Santon. It is about There must be some concern by them. I am big enough the national good and it is about this parliament doing what and strong enough to stand up in this Court and say – and if its job is there for and it is not there just to nod through you look at the last piece of this debate – that no-one would capital schemes that have left £300 million worth of debt be happier than me to be proven wrong, because I come from and liability without the £120 million from the Bord Gáis the viewpoint, 15 years ago, shouting that we need a bigger Éireann with the MEA. airport, bigger runway for bigger planes, to try and keep a I beg to move. diverse economy, to make tourism really viable on this Island. It is a U-turn for me after the representations I have made. The President: Now, Hon. Members, the motion that I think the contents of what viewpoints I have put in here I put to the Court is that motion printed at Item 36 on the are very disturbing. I mean, it is an absurdity if one is saying Order Paper, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; the wind direction is one way and the other is saying that against, no. The noes have it. The noes have it. the wind direction is the other way. People raise the issue of why. Why did not we look more in depth on the inland… Mr Karran: Divide. putting a runway inland more? I do not know. We have got no information here. The President: Too late, sir. I just would like to say that I think the Chief Minister is right. You are right. This issue now has been a changing feast. It was originally about getting bigger planes in and all sorts when we first started out on an extension of the runway. Ballakilley Estate It is now not that issue, but the point for the Chief Minister Feasibility of public open space is that the figures are important. Well, why are they part of Motion lost the submission if they are not important? Why is the issue of the wind direction not put in at the right... that there is 37. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move: some discrepancy? Why is the issue of inland development not part of the proposal? These are points that I think people That a committee of three Members be appointed with need to be concerned about. powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to I understand Mr Anderson. Now he has got the job, he sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, has to defend whatever there is as that Minister. I do hope as amended, to examine and review the feasibility of the that he will have the courtesy, even if he did not listen to Ballakilley Estate in the Parish of Rushen being zoned as it, he will read it in Hansard and take up the legitimate a public open space and recreational area for the south concerns that I have put down in front of this Hon. Court, of the Island, and to report no later than the sitting of the because I think these issues, the likes of the noise issue, we Court in April 2007 with recommendations.

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The President: We turn to Item 37. I call on the Hon. of being the priority. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, to move. Eaghtyrane, I will be happy to accept an amendment from the three Members for Rushen to adjourn this debate to Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, this motion is about Tynwald April or May sitting to see what the three Members, together making the policy for the benefit of the people – not the with the Minister of the Department of Local Government developers or the backroom boys who make the land deals, and the Environment, can determine in order to ascertain the so that people have to put up with what they are given. The costs involved, so that we can have a clear picture of what whole political process of our representatives of the people is needed, putting the people’s needs first for a change. It is is regarded as a joke because, by then, what happens is we not about who achieves it, it is about achieving what is best end up with a situation where they are the last people in for the people and making sure that we address the issues, the equation. We have seen the growth in population over which is, fundamentally, not the way the development has the years and ever decreasing sizes of properties in modern been allowed to take place in this Island for the last decade, developments and the reduction in public open spaces. Yes, if not longer. we have seen recently the recognition of the value of public The excuses for the urban sprawl in the south of the open spaces and the need for amenity areas – but not on the Island was that the Ballakilley would be a public open level of the priority that it should be. space, in order that the population would be given a green Let us not forget that the social cancers that we have lung. So long as this happens – and we hear from Council of helped to create and develop in this Court, we now have the Ministers that we are getting a detailed proposal – what we situation where both parents are having to work in order to do not want, and what I feel we are going to end up with, is put a roof over the heads of their families. That is, those a pig in a poke and the people’s needs are an afterthought, who are fortunate enough to be able to get on the property then the motion has done its work. ladder and who are not fortunate enough to get into local The motion is about intent. Intent to make sure that we authority housing, because if they do not, they have the address the issues of our people without fear or favour. It is situation of having the extortionate rents and developments the intent to see whether we can change the way Tynwald has and exploitation for the basic commodity of life. acted over the years when it has nodded anything through The same has happened over open spaces and the increase and we have ended up with the likes of the biggest scandal, in ‘trespassers will be prosecuted’ signs, something that when the MEA. It was not rocket science. To stop Government not I was a child were virtually unheard of. I tell the people it allowing the backroom boys to make the agenda. is not Dandara’s fault, they are a private company: that is Let this new administration leave something that we what private companies are there for. It is up to us to protect can all be proud of for the next generation. Let us not just the standards of open space and amenity areas for society, nod through a Government amendment, unless it is actually as well as housing, which I have already said is a basic going to do something positive regarding this issue. If not, we commodity of life. But, to date, we have a very shameful should have the select committee, get the information from record and I have to say that the main reason why it is our all the interested parties and the costs involved, report back fault is because we have allowed, not just housing but open to Tynwald so that the Department of Local Government spaces to be cut back. and the Environment are fully aware of what is required to Admittedly they have been much better in recent times, put the people’s interests first and the developers’ and the as far as the issue is concerned, but what is the improvement? landowners’ interests second. It is next to nothing. I put down this motion today which Let us change the way the record has been in this Hon. reads, Court. Let us have the costs for such a proposal. We have a ‘That a [Select] Committee of three Members be appointed with powers new administration. Let us have the generations in the future to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the thanking this Hon. Court in the year 2006-11, that we had the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to examine and review vision and the conviction to pursue open spaces to combat the the feasibility of the Ballakilley estate in the Parish of Rushen being urban sprawl in the south and in the Douglas/Onchan area. zoned as public open space and recreational area for the south of the I beg to move the motion standing in my name. Island, and to report no later than the sitting of Tynwald in April 2007 with recommendations’ The President: Mr Malarkey. and the costs, to make the decisions for the people who elect us and not leave it to the vested interest groups, so they will Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I move to second the decide behind closed doors. Yes, they may come up and say motion and reserve my comments till later. after the job has been done, that we will do what we think is required, as far this area is concerned. The bottom line is The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. that open spaces and recreational areas for the south and for the Douglas/Onchan area should be something that we are Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. addressing now, today. The mover will not be too surprised to know that I am I put this motion down after the reply in Tynwald in going to be opposing this particular motion. My hon. friend, December from the then Chief Minister, where Members of the Hon. Member for Onchan, and myself have actually had Tynwald read through the answer to see what the reality is considerable discussions about this particular issue. I suppose and that is ever decreasing circles. That is what we witnessed. my main purpose for opposing this is that I do believe that It is an important principle that we need these green lungs the mover is blissfully unaware of most of the issues relating in these areas and other areas of high population throughout to this particular issue. I think it is unfortunate that he has the Island. We have heard about the Arbory and East Rushen chosen not to come and talk to the Rushen Members about plan, but what is the track record of these plans? The track this in advance of moving this motion and I believe that the record is people’s needs are put as an afterthought, instead information I will be able to contribute to this debate will

Ballakilley Estate –Feasibility of public open space – Motion lost 208 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day assist Members of this Hon. Court in realising why I, anyway, attendance of then present and some past MHKs for Rushen and the feel that this motion should be opposed. uses to which the land should be put were discussed along with ways of progressing the acquisition of the land. I must, at this stage, apologise to the President. I was Uses which were promoted by various members of the group aware of his procedural note that we had to submit papers included a campsite, children’s play facilities, burial facilities, a in advance. However, it was only this morning when I skateboard park, police station (prior to the Port Erin station being realised that I was actually going to be speaking from this established) and the primary school, although it was made clear that letter and, of course, Standing Order 3.23(vii) requires us to this would be a long term development, rather than something which would be required in the near future. circulate any literature that we are going to read from and I understand Port Erin Commissioners also suggested that some I was thinking, ‘Well, how I am going to do that?’ So that housing might be acceptable within the area in order to provide was the reason why you did not have the letter in advance additional housing for the area and to achieve some of the other more and I apologise for that. socially orientated facilities. However, I do believe that the letter I received from Mr McCauley, the Director of Planning, following a meeting At this point, I would like to mention another letter, but that myself and Mr Gill, one of the other Members for I have not circulated this because it was a confidential letter Rushen, had, is self explanatory. It does deal with many from a constituent which arrived at my house yesterday of the issues that the hon. mover seems to be trying to get evening and I got this when I got home. This is from a a select committee to deal with, as well. I cannot quite constituent of mine who is desperately searching for a understand why we need Tynwald to make a decision which house. Tynwald has already taken – and this is the quandary that I There is huge problem with regard to the need for social have here. Why should… yes, okay, the mover is absolutely housing in Port Erin and I do find it rather strange that, on right, Tynwald should be making these decisions. Tynwald the one hand, Liberal Vannin seems to be promoting this already has made the decision. Tynwald’s decision, actually, whole idea that we need to have more social housing and is a lot clearer than the decision that the hon. mover seems to yet, on the other hand, it is going to sterilise a huge chunk be trying to organise for us to make and I will explain why of available land in the Port Erin/Port St Mary area. by reading this letter: So this is the letter, just to, I suppose, hammer home the point that there are people out there who desperately need ‘I refer to the meeting on 19th December 2006 with yourself, Mr Gill, housing. Mr Kinrade, to discuss the background to the zonings for part of the Ballakilley estate in the Arbory and East Rushen Plan. ‘Please help me. I cannot keep living like this, with eight of us in this The land to the north of Four Roads was the subject of some debate house and two kids under 22 months old in the same room as me and when the Arbory and East Rushen Local Plan was being progressed. my partner. Please, please help. I would not care if it only had walls The area, which extends between Church Road, Barracks Road, and roof. I do not care what it looked like or where it was. I just cannot Ballafesson Road and Castletown Road was subsequently designated carry on.’ for a combination of the following uses: the field to the south east of the Ballafesson Road was designated for Education, reflecting the perceived future need for a primary school, dependent upon future Bitter news if the Hon. Member for Onchan is successful residential development. The land to the south of Rushen Parish and the whole area becomes completely sterilised. Church was identified as area for Civic, cultural and other special use – Worship, reflecting the church’s perceived need for burial space for the ‘It is understood,’ foreseeable future. The remaining land was designated as Recreation, Civic Uses and Southern Community Hospital, reflecting the mixture – just carrying on now from the letter – of uses which were put forward by local interest groups, Government Departments and the local authorities (Arbory and Rushen Parish Commissioners and Port Erin and Port St Mary Commissioners.)’ ‘that it was considered that the land would probably end up being vested in the local authorities and as it would be of benefit to all four authorities, that a joint group, like that for the swimming pools, might So I think it is important that Members realise that be appropriate for the maintenance of such an area. there was a considerable amount of people, interest The working party stopped meeting following what appeared to be groups, representatives from the area, who actually got the an impasse in the acquisition of the land owned by the Clucas Estate. designation in the first place. So this is not something that There appears to have been a reluctant acceptance amongst the local authorities that they would be unlikely to be able to afford to purchase has been imposed by planners, this was a designation which the land. It is understood that the Government Valuer was approached was sought by the relevant local authorities and departments to value the land and this confirmed that the Clucas Estate would be for the area. likely to require at least what had been paid by the Department of Health and Social Security and so it seemed that the purchase of the ‘The Written Statement accompanying the Arbory and East Rushen area would be most unlikely at that time.’ Local Plan, (Planning Circular 4/99) refers to the Ballakilley area in its sections on Recreation, (6), Education (7) and in its own chapter (14) and contains a development brief, (Area 2), which requires Subsequently, the local authorities of the area – Port Erin, that a comprehensive plan is prepared to look at the entire site, after Port St Mary and Rushen – together with myself – and I consultation with the Department of Health and Social Security, understand at the time Mr Gill and Mr Rimington were unable the Department of Transport, Sports Council and the relevant local to attend – actually met with the agent for the landowner last authorities. year and we had exactly the same response from the agent As a result of this requirement for a comprehensive plan, a working party was established shortly after the adoption of the plan to progress for the landowner. The land was not available for sale at the development of the area. At the same time, the Department of agricultural rates, they were looking for more. They also Health and Social Security had purchased not only the rectangular mentioned some of the issues which I will now read out field at the southern end of the area for the Southern Group Practice, which have been mentioned to the Planning Office. but also the field alongside on which was to be built the Southern Community Hospital. The latter was subsequently developed as the ‘Since then, the Planning Office have had meetings with an agent who Southern Community Healthcare Project [or the new Southlands].The represents a development company, but who is clearly also liaising with working party met on a number of occasions, with the benefit of the the Clucas Estate to progress an overall plan for their land (which also

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includes land on the western side of the A7 Ballafesson Road opposite Where are we going to build it? (Interjection) Are we going the proposed primary school site). These development proposals at to build it on the Meayll peninsula? Are we going to build it the time of discussion included residential development, as well as recreational and community facilities. in Cregneash, on the top of Bradda Head, perhaps? At no time…’ If you are going to sterilise this whole area, where are you going to build your land? I think this is a silly motion, I have – and this is important because the hon. mover insists on to say, and I do not like using words like that, especially when saying that deals are being done – at no time – this coming it is a friend of mine that I am, I suppose, attacking, but I do from the Director of Planning, now I do not know who else think it is a silly motion. I told the Hon. Member that I felt the deals might be being done with – he should withdraw it. I shall certainly be opposing it.

‘At no time has it been indicated that any development outside the The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Crowe. current zoning in the Arbory and East Rushen Plan would be acceptable. Any change of zoning would need to be considered in the preparation of the Area Plan for the South. Given these discussions, it is expected Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. that the Estate and/or prospective developers would propose the area I find it quite extraordinary to be debating this issue and, for some form of mixed development comprising some of the current indeed, the last one in this Hon. Court. allocations plus a residential component. It is certainly an area of land If the mover of this motion had made the first, the most the use of which will need to be reviewed as the Local Plan designations simple, enquiries to any Members of Rushen – and I am have not been implemented. The Department intends to start the preparation of the Area Plan for the South later in the year, subject to pleased to see Mr Watterson back in Court – to any Members approval of the Strategic Plan.’ of Rushen or, indeed, former Members, or, indeed, Members from Malew and Santon or adjoining local authorities, the Now that is a letter dated 10th January 2007 from the whole history of this portion of the Ballakilley Estate could Director of Planning and Building Control. So, yes, Tynwald have been explained. already has made the decision. Tynwald has already decided It is absolutely right what Mr Gawne has read from the what the hon. mover wishes to establish the select committee letter from the planning authorities. This portion of land was to look into and then make a recommendation, so that identified many years ago, in the 1990s. In fact, the late Hon. Tynwald can decide again. Member for Rushen, Mr John Corrin, was the instigator of The only slight difference, of course, is – and this is getting all the various parties together and that involved the a point that is referred to later in this letter, as well – that Church, it involved Education, it involved sport – all the Mr Karran is referring to the Ballakilley Estate, which is persons who would be interested in this parcel of land that considerably more extensive than the area which has already is so crucial to our area in the south of the Isle of Man – and been mentioned in this letter. The Ballakilley Estate extends the most simple of enquiries would have been able to provide considerably further than the area that the mover, I suspect, any answers that the Hon. Member for Onchan required, most is talking about, although I think this is the great difficulty I of which have now been answered by Mr Gawne. have with this motion. I do not believe that the mover really However, there are a few that I would like to put forward, has done his homework and understands what it is that he as well. I actually joined the working party in 1996 – all the is asking us for. local authorities, as I have mentioned before, the Church If it is the area that has already been designated, I do not etc, who had interest in having a small portion of this understand why he wants us to designate it again and if it land – and we all worked together. We tried to persuade is the more extensive area, I have not heard any arguments the local authorities of the time to join together to fund the developed by the mover, as to why a more extensive area of purchase of this land. We tried to persuade Rushen Football the whole of the Ballakilley Estate should be designated in Club at the time to move from where it is situated at the the way that he is describing. I would be very interested to present time, virtually in the middle of a housing estate, to hear from the mover when he winds up as to exactly what move to that area so that would free up land in the centre of it is that he means in his motion. Port Erin village for housing need. All of these things have So, yes, Tynwald should be making the decision. Tynwald been explored, not by one person, but by many people with already has made the decision. If the mover is successful, many diverse interests and not just working for the sake of Tynwald will make the same decision again, I should either the Housing, Health, the Church, or whatever, but all imagine, because we are fairly clear as to what we want working together for a common purpose. in the area. I do believe it is important to include the local I do believe the present Members of Rushen are still authorities, to include the Departments of Government, to working together for that common purpose, for the best use include the local representatives from this Hon. Court in the of this land in the south of the Island and I totally agree with discussions, as to what should be taking place in that area. the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne, when he says I have to say I would be very reluctant to support the one of the priorities in our area is the supply of housing. establishment of a select committee of three Members, likely We are desperate for first-time buyer housing in the south. as not, a number of whom will not be from the area, to make (A Member: Hear, hear) Indeed, we are for local authority decisions based on what should be going on in my patch. I housing and to sterilise land in this way without… there is do not believe that other Members from outside the area will no… this is quite a large parcel of land, there is adequate have the same degree of knowledge as the Members from land for all of the uses that have been mentioned: a small the area currently have, so I would be a little bit… well, I portion for the Church, a small portion for Education, a little am not going to support this motion. for housing and, of course, for recreation. Then, of course, having been successful in sterilising an What we do… I actually object to the fact that this motion even larger part of the available land in the area, the question was down without one single word. I know Legislative has to be asked, how does the Liberal Vannin Party fulfil its Council are now detached from the House of Keys in their policy of providing social housing in the area? (Interjections) area, but we are only up the stairs at any time. I am in my

Ballakilley Estate –Feasibility of public open space – Motion lost 210 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day office every day. The Hon. Member for Onchan could have The Hon. Member has told us that she joined in 1996. It walked up the stairs and said ‘Has anything ever been done fell apart – and why did it fall apart? (Mrs Crowe: Money!) about Ballakilley land? Have we ever done anything?’ The It fell apart because of the chance that we – instead of having same with the Hon. Members. planning for recreation – could get houses on it. From £6,000 I believe it was Mr Gawne who went to the Hon. Member to £340,000 or £380,000. for Onchan to ask for it to be withdrawn. I really find it That is the bottom line. (Mrs Crowe: No.) I do not blame amazing that it should be here before us today, because I them. I do not blame them. This declaration about public do not believe it deserves support and I hope that the Hon. open spaces – and I will not be lectured by the Hon. Member Court will not support this going to a select committee when of Council, as far as… and I will not, actually, take it from the work is still ongoing to have resolution for what we do the Member for Rushen about the housing situation… If with this land in our area. they would have done what I said, you would not have had the pain and suffering that we have got now with my Private The President: Mr Karran to reply. Members’ Bills. (Interjections) But it was not supported.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I do not need lectures from Mrs Crowe: Oh, yes. the Hon. Member of Council, a friend of the developers, to tell me – Mr Gill: Where would the houses be?

Mrs Crowe: I am sorry? Mr Karran: The houses would have been on the other side of Johnny Watterson’s Lane. There would be four other Mr Karran: – what needs to be done, Eaghtyrane. I sites. (Interjections) find – Eaghtyrane, the point is that when we talk about this point we have got to rise above the either/or. We in this Court Mrs Crowe: Mr President. I ask – make the agenda and I am surprised at my good friend, the former Mec Vannin nationalist, trying to give me such a The President: Hon. Members. Both Hon. Members. hard time. I think he does really want to look in the mirror, I take the point from Mrs Crowe which you are making as far as the statements that have come out today, as far as and I think you are absolutely right. Mr Karran, I made a the issue is concerned. comment at the start of the sitting yesterday morning that It should not be, Eaghtyrane, it should not be an either/ personal attacks in debate are really unacceptable. or: should we have housing, or should we have public open Hon. Member. spaces? It should not be that and it should not be a dutch auction. Mrs Crowe: I ask for that remark to be withdrawn, Mr This motion is down because we have got nowhere for President. I will not tolerate having those kind of remarks years! made about me in this Hon. Court. If Mr Karran will not Yes, we have got the designation, we have got the withdraw it, then further action should be taken. designation of part of it. What a select committee would do is look and say, right, is it right? How much will it cost? Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, as it is very hard to get free Come back and say, Tynwald, we want a policy here, we speech in this Court, I will have to withdraw the remark. I do not want to be the lhiam-lhiat, as my fluent Member for just ask her to look at her previous track record as Minister Rushen would say, where we say, ‘Oh yes, we agree with it, of Local Government – but there is no money’ because there is no-one put any sort of plan down for it. The President: Now, Mr Karran just continue with your I am disturbed by the input from the Member for debate now, sir. Rushen (Interjections) – disturbed greatly – because what a difference it makes becoming a Minister. What a difference! Mr Karran: She summed it up, the Hon. Member of I mean, I am shocked that he is telling me that the issue of Council, in the fact that she said, ‘I joined the working party getting people off the fence to do the work of saying – off the in 1996 and it was the late Mr Corrin who, in the 1990s, who fence – we want to designate an area of public space, should set up this working party.’ Where have we got? mean the difference between social housing and not. Is that not great emotive stuff and emotional blackmail Mrs Crowe: No money. that? No, we have got to have a choice. Why have we got to have a choice, Eaghtyrane? Mr Karran: I will tell you where we have got. We Why do we have to have the developers and landowners have got a situation where the working parties fell apart, and the backroom boys making the agenda? This is the because the bottom line is the planning process is not place where we should be making the agenda and I think we secure (Interjection) as far as… no, what we are on about should make the agenda and I think we should support the is the planning process. There is the chance that it could issue, because, let us be honest about it: I mean I did offer, get developable land and, if I was trustee of anything, I am Eaghtyrane, the Hon. Member for Rushen come up with an there to try and get what is best for my trust. I recognise that, alternative that actually puts something firm on the table. Eaghtyrane, because that would be my duty. My duty in this Hon. Court is to get what is best to Mrs Crowe: It is a written statement in the plan. develop the principles for this Island, that we make the agenda, this Court makes the agenda. That is what this motion Mr Karran: We have had a written statement since the is about on the Paper today. plan came out. When was it the plan came out, the Member

Ballakilley Estate –Feasibility of public open space – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 211 T124 of Council? You more likely were the Minister at the time. not be that in Government. That should not be the case and we should not be dancing to the developers’ tune. That is Mrs Crowe: No, I was not, actually. what we should not be doing. I hope this Hon. Court will support the select committee. Mr Karran: And what has been achieved, Eaghtyrane, What is there to lose? What there is to gain (Interjections) is since that plan has come out? The interested bodies have the fact to have a clear picture with the costs, as far as it is disbanded, they have given up hope and only for the question, concerned, and to come back to this Court, so that the then and that is the situation you have got. I am disappointed. Treasury Minister, wherever he is, can have some idea of what the cost is involved, as far as this proposal. Something Mr Gawne: Point of order, Mr President. That is not firm. the situation. I beg to move and I hope Hon. Members will support the The hon. mover is trying to mislead the Court by saying motion standing in my name. that the group has been disbanded. The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put The President: I think, Hon. Member, we did get that to the Court is that printed at 37, headed the Ballakilley from your comments early on – when Mr Gawne was Estate. Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; making his comments – I think you are absolutely right to against, no. raise this again. Mr Karran, if he wishes to make these comments, can A division was called for and voting resulted as make them. It is up to Tynwald to make the judgement. follows: Continue, Mr Karran. In the Keys – Ayes 2, Noes 17 A Member: Hear, hear. FOR AGAINST Mr Karran: Maybe the Minister would like to tell us Mr Malarkey Mr Anderson Mr Karran Mr Cannan when have they started to get the working party back together Mr Teare again? Maybe he would like to tell us that at some time. Mr Quayle The point is this motion is about intent. It is not just about Mr Brown Rushen: there is one on next to this about Douglas. If we do Mr Watterson not get into the driver’s seat, then what will happen? The Mr Gawne Mr Gill developers will make the agenda. That is what Liberal Vannin Mr Cretney is against. We support the housing situation, but this idea, Mr Braidwood because you have got to defend the indefensible, because Mr Corkish you are a Minister, by bringing in the fact of the homeless, Mr Shimmin I think is wrong, Eaghtyrane. Wrong. Mr Crookall This Hon. Court has a choice. You can leave it to Mrs Craine Mr Quirk the present set up at the moment or we can have a select Mr Cregeen committee and sit down and, hopefully, the Member for The Speaker Rushen will be the Chairman of it and let us have something back here, because Tynwald is of the opinion that we want The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails in the Keys, areas of public… with 2 votes for and 17 votes against We recognise the social problems, the smaller housing sizes we have got, the more problems, pressures with In the Council – Ayes 0, Noes 7 developers wanting to push more units onto an acre of land, the issue now that they try and give us the absurdity that FOR AGAINST two-bedroom flats are first-time buyers’ houses. They are None The Lord Bishop not, Eaghtyrane! They might be for old bachelors, the likes Mr Lowey Mr Waft of me, but they are not first-time buyers’ houses. First-time Mr Butt buyers’ houses should be so that people can then have their Mr Gelling children, have a bit of garden and not the situation that… Mrs Crowe It is alright for Mrs Crowe going on about these things: the Mr Downie fact is that is the reason why we get so disappointed with previous Ministers of the Local Government. The President: None for, 7 against in the Council, Hon. Hon. Members, I hope that you will support this proposal Members: the motion, therefore, fails to carry. because if you do not, I can tell you now, we would more Now, Hon. Members, I think it is an appropriate time at likely knock 25 per cent… unless we can manage to shame which we took a quick break. the Council of Ministers in the land that was for open area. Hon. Members, I do not believe that we can finish the I believe that this exercise needs to be done and, as I said to agenda before a sensible time, without taking a break, at the the Hon. Member, it does not matter who actually proposes rate which we are making progress. So we will have a short it, that is not important. It is about achieving it and the break and resume our deliberations at 38 at 5 o’clock. principle of this motion is about, not an either/or – shall we have somewhere for the kids to shelter out of the rain, or The Court adjourned at 4.39 p.m. whether they should have somewhere to play – there should and resumed its sitting at 5.04 p.m.

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Douglas Head/Howe Area out yet again to the developers and landowners. Green lung recreational area This area lends itself as a green lung for the Douglas and Motion lost eastern area of the Island. In an effective planning system, there is no way that they would ever be allowed to develop, 38. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move: but can we have that confidence? So, the costs, as far as buying this land, should be based on that broad plan of development That a committee of three Members be appointed with over the years, the needs of the people in the east of the Island, powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to and the works being done. Then the decisions would be made, sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as one way or the other, and this Hon. Court can put the capital amended, to examine and review the feasibility and costs of programme for the purchasing… letting the select committee designating the Douglas Head/Howe area as a green lung do its work and report back on the way this proposal should recreational area, and to report no later than the sitting of be done. the Court in May 2007 with recommendations. Hon. Members, I believe that we should be supporting and actually making policy decisions as a parliamentary Court, as The President: Hon. Members, we will continue, then, far as these issues. If we do not, then the danger is, the longer with our Order Paper at Item 38. I call the Hon. Member for it is left the more chance that we end up and see what the late Onchan, Mr Karran. Ted Ranson, the former Member for Middle, said. What we do not want is a situation where Douglas Head ends up the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I move this motion because I same way as Onchan Head. feel that Tynwald, as the people’s representative, should be It is alright, Hon. Members, nodding and saying that it will making the agenda. I know that Douglas Corporation has got never happen. The point is, one way of making sure it does two green areas at the present time, but we need to do what is not happen is for a parliamentary committee of three people to best, not just for today, but what we are going to leave behind investigate the viability, the costs – whether it is needed – and for the next generation. We need to look much deeper into the come back to this Hon. Court and then make a policy decision serious, social recreation requirements, just like the Victorians so that, then, the Treasury Minister knows where he stands to did, and also look to the planning for the long term, not just put money in the capital estimate. What we do not need is yet for the short time, as too often happens. another missed opportunity: too little, too late. I remember, many years ago, in much harder financial I beg to move. times, trying to buy the land, the property from Douglas Head to Wallberry Farm, to have a green lung for Douglas. This The President: Hon. Member, Mr Malarkey. was almost 20 years ago and, at the time, the cost of the land was in the region of £1.6 million, as I remember. We lost that Mr Malarkey: Mr President, I will second and reserve opportunity then. my comments. We need the vision, especially as we now see the proposals being put in place to try and develop some of the land in this The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. area – and, as there are covenants on part of the land at Douglas Head, why are there so many fences going up? Why are we Mr Downie: Yes, Mr President. now being told we cannot walk on certain areas? At the end I am brought to my feet because this is an issue that has of the day, Eaghtyrane, covenants can only be enforced by been debated on a number of occasions within another place people who can afford to enforce them. Like anyone has the and also within this Hon. Court. It does not seem to me all right to eat at the Ritz, but if you have not got the money, you that long ago that we looked at a piece of legislation called cannot take advantage of the facilities. the Douglas Head Act, which does give special designation One of the Members of the House of Keys that I had great to the whole area of Douglas Head. It also gives the rights of respect for, asked me three things, one of which – that Ted rambling over a certain part of it. That piece of land, in turn, Ranson asked me, as the former Member for Middle – if you is annexed to a piece of land that is owned by the National ever do get into the House of Keys, try and make sure that Trust, now looked after by Manx National Heritage. The Douglas Head area will not follow the same fate as Onchan other party up there is Douglas Corporation, who have land Head area. in that area. I sincerely hope that this Hon. Court will support a The Hon. Member says that he is worried and we should committee of three people to take written and oral evidence, be looking to provide land for sporting organisations. Unless not just from the general public and the local authorities and we are going into the ski slope business, I would like further the planning authorities, but also sporting organisations. There clarification on what he actually sees happening. This area are certain sporting organisations that are going through a very in the Local Plan is actually quite well protected and, over difficult time. We need to examine the feasibility and the cost the past few years, I think, that has been reinforced by the of designating the Douglas Head/Howe area as a green lung Planning Committee. recreation area and report back to the May sitting with what I do not think it is very far away for either the Island’s the cost involved would be. Strategic Plan to come back before us or, in fact, us to start to It is entirely up to Hon. Members. What do you want to do? review again the Douglas Local Plan. There is absolutely no Do you want the people’s representatives to make the agenda reason in my mind why that should not be taken as another or do you want the developers to do it for you? Obviously, opportunity to look at and revisit this area. If we want to they will look after their own interests. We should be looking increase the status or give it further protection, that is the time after the people’s interests and leave it up to us to decide what to do it. That will also give the public out there – and I am is needed. What we do not need is another situation where, getting a little bit tired about, ‘we are not doing enough for the unfortunately, vested interests win the day and the people lose public’… There are two opportunities for the public and those

Douglas Head/Howe Area – Green lung recreational area – Motion lost Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 213 T124 who are concerned to do something for themselves, because other side of the Marine Drive end could go there. Local Plan or All-Island Plan revisions give an opportunity At the end of the day, who wants to make the agenda? Do for the public to have their say about certain areas in the Isle we want to make the agenda? Does our process of making of Man. the agenda, actually say, ‘right, we want to investigate this What does concern me is that the Hon. Member for proposal,’ or do we want to leave it to the Planning Committee, Onchan, Mr Karran, said that he would now be prepared to the developers and the landowners? hand this over to the Treasury Minister. Unless I do not know I leave it to this Hon. Court. Make your mind up. That the law very well, we would need to have a specific purpose is up to you. All I can do is put the opportunities in front of or a national purpose to acquire land in the national interest this Hon. Court. and to use the procedures that we have got under compulsory If people do not want to do it, then that is fair enough. It purchase. I honestly think, knowing the landowner as I just will be another thing where, unfortunately, the likes of the do – Howe Farms, Mr Whipp – he is quite content to farm Member for West Douglas will harp on at a later date trying that land at the moment and I do not think there is any threat to belittle people by saying, ‘Oh well, you wanted to do that of development at the present time. and you cannot win, anyway.’ I do think that going down a route and setting up a I am trying to put in a new process with the new committee to come and make recommendations in here, I administration, giving Tynwald Court the opportunity to make think, really, is not necessary. There are a lot of protection the agenda. I think that this proposal of having three members measures currently in place through the planning system, of a select committee to look at this area, to do a green lung, through the existing legislation on the Douglas Head Act and, to look at a recreational area and to produce the principle that as I have outlined earlier, I think either this year or next year we should be having large areas, not something of a pig in a there will be opportunities to revisit the whole of that area poke. We have to cut this back to put this in – a principle. with the revision of the plans. Hon. Members, it is up to this Hon. Court whether you So, unless the Hon. Member, when he is summing up, support the proposal or not. can convince me that there is a big problem up there and the I beg to move. developers are waiting to move in, I will not be voting for this motion. The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that which is printed at 38 on your Order Paper. Hon. Members, those in The President: Mr Karran to reply. favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the point is this, yes, we all A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: know that Douglas Head – the part which is in the public In the Keys – Ayes 3, Noes 20 ownership – is safe. We know that. We know that they are not going to bring in the JCBs overnight, but there is a planning FOR AGAINST application up there at the present time on part of the land. Mr Malarkey Mr Anderson Once a principle is broken… we all understand that covenants Mr Karran Mr Cannan are there on certain land. Why have they suddenly started to Mr Quirk Mr Teare get big fencing up? Places where you could walk at one time, Mr Quayle Mr Brown behind the likes of Manx Radio, now you cannot do it. You Mr Watterson cannot go up there scrambling behind Manx Radio. Mr Gawne I believe that this motion is about setting up a select Mr Gill committee to see whether there is a need, what the costs Mr Houghton involved would be, what is required for the people in the Mr Cretney Mr Braidwood Douglas East area of the Isle of Man, and come back to this Mrs Cannell Hon. Court: making the agenda for the people. Mr Corkish I believe that this Tynwald Court, as a parliamentary Mr Shimmin assembly, should be making the agenda and my concern is, Mr Crookall Eaghtyrane, that if we do not start doing this, then what will Mrs Craine happen in the future? I believe we have to have the vision Mr Bell Mr Earnshaw and the political will to investigate the issues of proper, large, Mr Cregeen green lungs around big urban sprawl, because, if we do not do The Speaker it now, the longer we leave it and let it go, the harder it gets. As I say, when we looked at it the last time, when the The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails to carry in land was up for sale, the £1.6 million price tag from Douglas the Keys, with 3 votes for and 20 votes against. Head right over including Wallberry Farm would have been fantastic. It was a hard decision. Today it is an impossible In the Council – Ayes 2, Noes 5 decision for us to buy that amount of land, but it is still possible, after investigation, that we could buy the remaining FOR AGAINST land in the whole of the Douglas Head/Howe area, designated Mr Lowey The Lord Bishop Mr Waft Mr Butt as a green lung, which can be used for what is required for the Mr Gelling people in the eastern part of the Island, for whatever sporting Mrs Crowe facilities are needed. Mr Downie I do get people complaining to me that there is nowhere to go for certain events. I know I have raised issues with the The President: With 2 for, 5 against in the Council, Hon. Member for Forestry on some issues that, maybe, over the Members. The motion, therefore, fails to carry.

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Football Association be in the strategic, long-term interest of the Manx nation. Feasibility of independence for Island Hon. Members, what happens if I am proven right and this is Amended motion carried a golden opportunity, not only to promote football, but also the Island on an international level? Think of the money, the 39. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move: jobs generated for football tourism visiting the Island to play in international matches. That a committee of three Members be appointed with I think the select committee should make the evaluation powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to and they should come back to this Hon. Court after the sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, evaluation has been made and make the right decision, as amended, to examine and review the feasibility and whichever way it goes. I want what is best and I think this costs of establishing a Football Association for the Isle is the way to go about it and to find out the best… What is of Man, independent of the English Football Association best for the Isle of Man is the bottom line. and a member in its own right of the international bodies, Like so many other issues that were worthy of and to report with recommendations. investigation, but were not investigated, and now recognised as a sad fact of life not being investigated at the right time The President: We move on, Hon. Members, to Item 39 by people without any empires to guard, are blocked by the on our Order Paper, and again I call on the Hon. Member for Isle of Man Government, the Executive. A previous Member Onchan, Mr Karran, to move. of this Hon. Court, years ago, fought for years in order to provide a Manx postal service for the Isle of Man, which, at Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, it is sad that the time, seemed impossible, actually was achieved better we heard that… but having seen the detailed feasibility, late than never. But how much good could have been done, or viability, of the recent investigation by the Manx if it would have happened years ago. Football Association into becoming an independent Manx With regard to the need… we need to be aware of the association, i.e. a member of FIFA – because that would have costs involved and the effects on football on the Island, certainly answered the need for any further investigation. regarding the marketing opportunities proceeding with a Obviously, the creation of a select committee will have that policy for the Isle of Man that benefits the economy and opportunity. tourism and other areas as well. I know we spend millions I am sure that we all understand there will be costs on promoting the Island already. Would it not be better if it initially in order to meet the criteria, in order to pursue such may be possible to put that cost involved to far better… well a move. The initial criterion is the building of a national worth putting that cost forward for a football association? floodlit stadium with eight-lane athletic track, including the Being a member of the English County FA has its benefits necessary Health and Safety infrastructure. for Manx football, but the Isle of Man is currently the I am sure that the money received from FIFA would far only County association within the English FA that has no outweigh the money currently received from the English floodlit football on grass, which effectively makes it the poor FA. FIFA actually donates to independent European FAs relation within the English FA. Equally, the decision to build the amount of millions, rather than thousands received for a stadium with floodlights and an eight-lane athletic track county associations. Are Members aware that the English and subsequent infrastructure that goes with it for a stadium, FA receives most of its money from FIFA and, if not, the will allow us not only to apply for the status, but allow us to money generated from the English domestic game, i.e. the compete and host national events and international football, Premier League, which goes mainly to the clubs and not rugby, athletics, cycling and even hosting other areas of for the FA? tourism, for example music. The Isle of Man, as a member of FIFA, would receive Hon. Members, this needs to be investigated and, exactly the same money as the English FA, for example, obviously, when the costs have come up, it has to go back the French FA and the Gibraltar FA. The motion is about to look at the capital programme. It would be a disgrace and Tynwald reclaiming its ability to develop the agenda for a disservice to the nation if we do not investigate this matter the national good outside Government Departments or other further. Hon. Members, you are not voting for me, you are groups that may have self interest. There is no reason why voting for a committee of three Members to be appointed we cannot have a national football association, as the Faroe with powers to take written and oral evidence, to examine Islands, San Marino or Gibraltar, places that are much smaller and review the feasibility and the costs of establishing a than the Isle of Man. football association for the Isle of Man, independent of We have heard that Jersey has recently been considering the English FA, and to be a member in its own right and to this move. What a disservice we will do to the Isle of Man, report back with recommendations. I hope and trust that this if we do not investigate this properly: this disservice, Hon. Court will seize this opportunity to support the motion particularly, to our talented young footballers, who recently, standing in my name. having won the English Amateur County Championships I beg to move. against all odds, then had to suffer the irony of representing the English FA in Europe, wearing English shirts and not The President: Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Crookall. the yellow and red Three Legs of Man, which they so richly deserved, to parade on behalf of the Isle of Man in Mr Crookall: Mr President, I beg to second this and Europe. reserve my remarks. I hope common sense will prevail in order that this issue can be investigated: to start the proud tradition that The President: Hon. Member, Mr Butt. we do not have at the moment and that is of parliamentary democracy, where parliament scrutinises issues it feels will Mr Butt: Thank you, Mr President.

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Firstly, can I apologise for the late delivery of the press on in the Isle of Man, which has increased hugely over the release which was circulated. Like most of my football last few years, and they also pay for legal expertise: they career, I got my timing wrong again! (Interjections) That have their own in-house legal team. letter, as you can see – or the media release, as you can see, You would be surprised at how often discipline matters shows that the Manx FA oppose this motion. They have actually go before advocates, or before lawyers, and the already investigated this matter some years ago and do not English FA have their expert team who actually provide legal see the necessity of having a select committee. I agree with expertise. If we became independent, we would have to bring them. in our own legal expertise to handle these cases. As we know I do not stand here as an advocate of the Manx FA, from other matters, that is an open-ended cheque book once though. I have my differences with them, especially over you get advocates in the Isle of Man involved in matters. discipline matters (Laughter) in the past, and even at this That is a hidden expense that cannot be estimated. particular moment, but I do advocate the way they have The main reason that the Football Association over here developed football in the last few years. They have made wants to stay as it is, is because of an organisation called the huge strides in the last five to ten years, partly because they Football Foundation. This is an FA group that has millions of did a thorough review of their structures and administration – pounds for grass roots football, and the reason Manx football and the whole concept of the FA changed. has improved so much in the last few years is because of this There may be some misconceptions that the Manx FA Foundation. If clubs want a grant from them, which they can is actually the English FA. The Manx Football Association get, they have to up their standards, they have to become a is an association of 27 clubs. That is all it is – one member chartered club, they have to provide women’s football, girls’ from each club. There are two paid clerical staff, but apart football, junior football, child protection issues. They have from that, everybody on the Manx FA is from a local football to provide an adequate number of coaches – and that has club. I spent my stint there as a representative a few years been done in most of the progressive clubs. ago for Laxey and very interesting it was and quite hard As a result of that, in the Isle of Man in the last few work sometimes. years, I believe – and the figures may be wrong but they are I believe Mr Quirk, the Member for Onchan, has just approximate, – I think St John’s have had £200,000 towards become an FA rep: he may well regret that in the future, their pitch, Union Mills have had over £300,000 to their new (Laughter) but it is a local organisation for local clubs and, complex, Ramsey have had new seats in their stadium – no matter what this Court decides, or what a select committee may decide, if a group of clubs want to form an association Mr Lowey: Onchan have applied. and want to be affiliated to an English association, I do not think this Court can stop that – we have no remit over what Mr Butt: – and there is a queue of clubs applying, Colby, clubs do between themselves. Onchan. In Laxey, we are hoping to develop the tennis courts But, Mr Karran’s motion does provide, possibly, an across the road into an astroturf pitch for junior training exciting future. It could be done. We could become members and tennis courts with the Commissioners. If it goes ahead, of UEFA and we could compete at the highest level against which I hope it will one day, the FA will give us at Laxey countries in a professional way. I believe at the moment £120,000 towards that. Now, without that money, it would UEFA would discourage that. From what I understand, not be conceivable to even dream of that. they are trying to actually to turn the United Kingdom into We have 200 people – 200 children – every Saturday one club and do away with Scotland, Wales and Ireland as morning training at Laxey and this facility would be members in their own right, so I think our chances of getting wonderful for us. I cannot see UEFA – I can see them in are very slim, but we could do it and we could benefit, providing transport to games in Europe and providing all perhaps, from gate receipts, from television rights. We could the necessary equipment and kit, but they are not going to get our name on the international stage, and it might do us say to Colby Football Club, ‘Yes, you can have £20,000 for a lot of good. a new toilet block’, or to Marown, ‘You can have money for Unfortunately – I am not criticising the standard of new drainage for your pitch’. But the English FA, through football on the Isle of Man – I suspect the contrary will the Football Foundation, do give us that money. be true, because we will be playing against professional I think if we do go the way of becoming independent, footballers and we will probably be the whipping boys of there will be an interim period where we will not have that Europe, and the image of the Isle of Man might well be we finance. Before the money comes in from UEFA, we will are the team that gets beaten seven or eight nil every year. have to satisfy their criteria, we will have to have an all-seater stadium. Now, how much will that cost? That could cost Mr Houghton: They’ll take over from England, then. millions, or certainly a million, I am not sure how much the (Laughter). NSC cost, but we are looking at equivalent costs. Before we get anywhere near playing in their competitions we would Mr Butt: They need two whipping boys! But that is have to provide that, so in the meantime there would be a a possibility, it could be done. If it is done, there will be hiatus, a gap where we would not having any money coming an expense. UEFA will pay for travel, they will pay for in. At the moment we have money. attendance at games, they will pay for officials, they may Another thing which would cause problems is, we would well pay towards stadiums, but they are not going to put have to fulfil their player qualification rules. At the moment, money into the grass roots of Manx football like the English you can play for the Isle of Man if you play in an Isle of Man FA do. League team. Under UEFA rules, as far as I understand it, At the moment the English FA pay for the salaries of the you have to be born in the country, your parents have to be administrative staff, well over £100,000 a year, salaries and born in the country or a grandparent has to be. That would administration costs. They pay for all the coaching that goes mean, of a current successful Isle of Man team, nearly half

Football Association – Feasibility of independence for Island – Amended motion carried 216 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day of them would not actually be eligible to play for the Isle of the Isle of Man team, representing the Isle of Man, for the Man. An example is: there was a great Laxey player – one good of the English FA. of the greatest Laxey players – a man called Alan Palmer, who some of you may know. Alan is Scottish born and bred, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. Scottish through and through – lived here since he was 16. He had a long career playing for the Isle of Man. He would Mr Earnshaw: Eaghtyrane, all the intent of the not be eligible, under the UEFA rules, to play for the Isle Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, is laudable and of Man. opportunities should be taken to reinforce our individuality as A more modern player, a man called Peter Langridge, a nation, but it has to be said that, in this instance, the Isle of who plays for St Mary’s, started at Laxey. Peter Langridge Man’s long-standing links with the English FA significantly has played for the Island for 15 years, the top goal scorer benefit the Island and our own FA, who are content, it would of all time, I think, and one of the greatest players we ever seem, with the status quo. had. He is from the north east of England. He would not be The Isle of Man Football Association, which is a eligible, either: we would lose these sort of players. voluntary sporting body, has recently undertaken its own Going back to the tournaments which the Manx team won investigations into the viability, the feasibility and the recently: a great achievement and they played well above desirability of becoming an independent association and as their weight. There is a misconception about the nature of a result, they have reached the clear decision that to do so the competition. We did not win the county championship. would not be in the best interests of football as a whole on We won a competition that was set for leagues of our size the Island. and style and ability throughout the country. There are lots Hon. Members need only consider the fact that the of these cups, but we won the one that we were entered into. English Football Association provides direct funding We are not the top county in the British Isles. We happen to for development personnel, wider support through the have won that particular cup. English Football Association’s network, such as coaching All the way through that competition, the Manx lads, courses, travel and events, child protection and information including four Laxey players, I have to say, wore Manx kit technology, some of which has just been referred to by the and played as the Isle of Man. They generated support as they Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt. Also, the opportunity to went through each round. They picked up their own supporters bid for funding for major capital projects on the Island has from Walsall, some students from Walsall, their own Barmy been seen at St John’s and Union Mills, to which he has also Army, who followed them all the way through. They will be referred. Realising that any change in direction at this point going to Prague in the spring when we play there. in time would be daunting to replicate and certainly the cost The bandwagon rolled and I think those supporters and of providing the facilities and personnel alone could well run Manx people that went over actually helped our team to into millions of pounds worth of investments. win that competition. Our team did very well. They played I think, Eaghtyrane, it must also be recognised that the well above their weight to win that. The bandwagon rolled Isle of Man Football Association is doing a terrific job for the and we had success. When they play in Prague – and they Island and Tony Jones and his team deserve praise for their had a friendly, also, in Dublin recently – most of our lads extensive achievements to date – I go out watching football had a Manx shirt on as their t-shirt which they lifted at the on a fairly regular basis and see the evidence of that – and appropriate time, had they scored a goal. Unfortunately they not scrutiny and an undermining of their position. did not. One of the lads actually had a Scottish shirt under Hon. Members, when we see our sportsmen and women his, because he is a Scots lad. competing at international level – for example, Mark When these people travel, the Manx flag is everywhere. Cavendish riding for the Island at the Commonwealth Games, This is a good advert for the Isle of Man. It has been in the who also rides for the Great Britain cycling team – we can papers, it has been all the way through the press, even on celebrate that we, on our Island, have been able to produce the English websites. When they go to Prague, they will be such talented, home grown, inspiring heroes. travelling in their Isle of Man blazers, Isle of Man tracksuits, I do not believe we should jeopardise what we already Isle of Man sports bags. They will put on an English shirt have but, instead, we should concentrate on building for the for the game, because we have been invited by the English future and competing at a level through the most appropriate FA to represent them in this competition. Because they have and most advantageous route for the Island. It is the Isle of had success in that competition does not mean that we should Man Football Association’s sport, after all, not ours. I do throw away what is already there for the sake of that issue. not believe it is the place for this Hon. Court to interfere in It is like saying to Mark Cavendish, when you go to their affairs. Beijing in the Olympics, you cannot go and represent Great I will ensure, however, that the Department of Tourism Britain, because you are a Manx person and we do not and Leisure, which is Government’s link to sport, will want that to happen. We have had lots of people who have discuss the issues that have been raised by this motion with represented England in all sorts of sports – it does not mean the Isle of Man Football Association, as well as considering we have to actually give away our authority, take away the the situation with other similarly-structured, Island sporting English affiliation we have with these organisations and take bodies, as appropriate. it onto ourselves. To conclude, Hon. Members, Eaghtyrane, I do not believe I just, finally, say, Mr President, that the bandwagon that it is in the best interests of the Island to support the motion rolls for the Isle of Man team has really worked well for them. in front of us today. I shall be voting against it. The manager and the Manx FA are to be congratulated. Mr Karran, I hope he has not got on the wrong The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. bandwagon for the wrong reasons and I hope that he can, perhaps, come to Prague with us in the spring and support Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President.

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I say to my good friend, Mr Karran, I think this is a happened by accident, it has been planned and worked scrutiny too far. I suppose I had better start doing some for, over a few years. I do not think now is the time, declaring, Mr President. notwithstanding what you have done, boys. If it was failing, I could understand, but as it is on the way up and a lot of the The President: I will blow the whistle. clubs that have been mentioned – I am not going to recite them all again – are benefiting financially to a huge degree, Mr Lowey: I have no doubt, as a former Chairman of the I would hate to put that into jeopardy. Sports Council and, much more importantly, as an honorary I know the Member for Onchan does not want to do manager of the Tynwald Tigers team that has been, for years, that. I know that, but I do think, at this particular time, is representing the Isle of Man, I do declare an interest that inopportune and I will not be supporting. football is my game. Having said all of that, I have watched the waxing and waning of the fortunes of the national team The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. over the years and much prefer it when they are on the way up and, my word, they have excelled themselves. Mr Quirk: I will not repeat myself, Mr President, for I enjoin with my good friend – although he was not always the other colleagues have just said. I endorse and echo their my best friend, because I have booked him once or twice. I comments that have been made. really have shot myself in the foot there. I said football is Peter does have a valid point and I think we may have all my game. You see my brothers will forgive me for being a missed this. We do not have a national stadium for the Isle of politician. They will never forgive me for being a football Man. I think it is an opportunity and I notice my colleague referee. They always said I have ruined the game for so here from Onchan, who is now the Minister for Tourism. If many over so many years, I should be thoroughly ashamed of he is going to review some of the sporting activities with myself. The longer I go, I think they may have been right. the Isle of Man FA, maybe that is one of the issues that can Having said all of that, I look to my good friend, the be brought about. former Chief Minister and Member of Council, Mr Gelling. Next to the FA building is a very fine piece of grass, but My association with Mr Gelling goes back to when he was it is not in ownership of the Isle of Man FA, so maybe that a footballer, a footballer of renown, I may add: Captain of should be the national centre where sport can be played. Our Malew, yes, indeed, and one of my heroes, never put a foot colleague across the table there from West Douglas, the Isle wrong and I can crawl now to him. of Man Steam Packet Festival now has fallen on hard times. Back to the resolution! I think Mr Butt, the Hon. Member So, maybe if the stadium or Government support was given of Council, has got it absolutely right. The Association is an to purchase of a national stadium, which will support the Isle association of clubs. I, too, like Mr Butt, have my – and they of Man FA in its endeavours to bring major clubs to the Isle are all personal friends of mine at the Association. They have of Man, also national clubs, maybe international… never spoken to me, by the way, they have not lobbied me. I think Peter does have a few valid points, but I hope that They have never got in touch with me. The only people that other Members and my colleague from Onchan would take have got in touch with me, I must say, were my own local those on board, as well. football club, of which I am a Trustee. They said, ‘What is Peter up to?’ The words they used, Mr Karran. I said, ‘Oh, The President: Mr Speaker. No. Mr Gill, Hon. Member I am sure he means well.’ I said it could only have been for Rushen. triggered by the success of the football team or the success of Gibraltar applying for their international status. Mr Gill: Thank you, I will try to be brief, Mr Be that as it may, the point I want to emphasise is that, if President. it ain’t broke, why fix it? The Association and the clubs are First of all, could I ensure that the letter which was benefiting with what we have got at this moment in time. I referred to earlier from the Isle of Man Football Association, know Mr Karran says we may do even better. That is the point the media release of 4th January, be accepted into Hansard he is making and I recognise that, but the Association and the so that we have a clear reflection of the opinions of the Isle clubs do not think that at this particular moment in time. of Man FA? I will tell you why. I will add another add-on which we have got, which is not well known, but I think is positive. The President: The letter of 4th January? The English FA actually support the training officers for upgrading the game in conjunction with the Isle of Man FA Mr Gill: The one that has been circulated, sir. and they are incorporated into the strategy of sport which is run by the Sports Council. The fastest growing sport in The President: Okay. the Isle of Man over the last few years has been the growth of ladies’ football and the competition for young people in Mr Gill: Thank you. I would say, having spoken to Mr any sport now is terrific. I think at the last count, there were Jones, recently, in fact just last night, it is disappointing that, 57 sports that were being supported in various phases, 57 whilst this is clearly a well-intentioned and timely, in some sports, a lot of them affiliated to the national, some of them ways, motion, it is disappointing, I know, from the Isle of affiliated to the international. Man FA’s part – and I would echo that – that Mr Karran Cricket, I have mentioned – and I think it has been has not taken the opportunity to meet with them, as he was mentioned before – has chosen the route of what Mr Karran is offered, but instead, without any further reference other than suggesting might be an appropriate route here. But before we some telephone calls came with this motion, which has taken impose our will from here, I believe it is for the clubs to decide them by surprise. what they want to perform and what they want to do. As we have seen, actually it is not consistent with the The success that the national side has had has not just investigation into their strategic progress over the next few

Football Association – Feasibility of independence for Island – Amended motion carried 218 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 Orders of the Day years. Whilst I entirely accept the siren calls from Mr Karran Mr President, I beg to move the amendment in my that, having FIFA and UEFA registration and all the benefits name. that could follow that, there is no guarantee… What we do have as guarantee is that the Association, as it stands, will The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. continue for the foreseeable future. We have heard, and I will not rehearse all the benefits Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to that Mr Butt has mentioned, but we have all seen that – any second. of us who has an interest in football and I do, I have two daughters who are part of that unprecedented sport growth in girls’ football – it has been fantastic, it is extremely positive. Yes, we know that the Isle of Man team will be wearing three lions, not three legs, but it is not the end of the world. We know they are representing the Island. Everybody who is supporting them will know that. There is no misunderstanding and, at the same time, they have won the honour to represent the English FA. So what I think I would like to conclude is, by an amendment which is positive – and I am mindful of the comments of the Minister that it will probably be me he will task with liaising with the FA to see if there is any merit in the comments that Mr Karran has raised – for today I would like to conclude on a positive note with an amendment to the effect that we congratulate our footballers on their fantastic success and that we wish them all the very best in the forthcoming finals, which are due to come up in Prague in the springtime.

Mr Quirk: We could do with the money.

Mr Gill: I do not know if you would care for me to conclude there, while the amendment is being circulated, Mr President…

The President: You can continue, sir. I am quite happy for you to continue.

Mr Gill: Thank you, it is very kind. I do not really know if I have too much to continue with, other than say, yes, I will certainly not rise to the bait of mentioning Everton, as my colleague in Rushen, Mr Gawne, suggests – oh, now I have said it! What I would say, sir, is the relationship that the Isle of Man FA enjoy with the English FA is beneficial to all concerned, mostly to footballers of all ages and both genders. The relationship we have really is – again I know I have used this analogy and I will conclude with it – but it is like ‘What have the Romans ever done for us?’ – irrigation, law and order, roads, sewerage, public health: ‘What has the English FA ever done for us?’ – Administration, finance, accreditation, training, etc etc. It has been a great success story for everybody concerned with football. So I do hope that the amendment, which has the effect of reflecting our pride in our football team, our national football team and Tynwald’s sincere wish, I hope we will all join The President: Mr Karran to reply to the debate. together in that in wishing them all the best in Prague – and on the basis of the comments from the Minister for Tourism Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think the important thing that this will form an amendment which would bring a is, I have no problem with the amendment, but so long as satisfactory conclusion to this motion: the principle is down for what we are on about, is the real core issue. For all the words after ‘That’ substitute – It is very well and good saying about the situation of the ‘Tynwald sends its sincere congratulations to the Isle Romans – people were saying about the British Post Office, of Man Football Association on their success in the ‘Well, they have done so much for us,’; the British Customs, National League System Cup and wishes them well in ‘Why do we need to look at anything else?’ We could take the forthcoming final round.’ that level on all the social improvements and principles that

Football Association – Feasibility of independence for Island – Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 219 T124 have been developed over the last 40 years. I am sure when it is only the English FA are interested in women’s football, we had the situation with the report – the McManus Report social improvement. You will find that the other organisation in the early 1960s – that changed the powers of the Governor, is more likely to give you tenfold, but I might be wrong, as ‘Why, why do we need it?’ They have done so much, the equally as you might be right and that is why you need a British Governor. That is an easy get-out in my opinion, select committee. Hon. Members. The only thing I can see is the issue of pump priming. I am disappointed with the Member for Rushen, because There will be a cost, there will be a capital cost. It is a pump the fact is that I did make representations twice in the last five priming thing and almost certainly a revenue cost short term. years and somebody did ring me up but put nothing in writing I am not denying that, but, at the end of the day, Hon. Member to me, as far as the issue, and it is news to me there was some of Council, it is about setting up a select committee, it is about offer on the table to go and talk to them because I do not know them doing the investigation and them coming back to this where that offer was. Still, I think the point is is that, again, Hon. Court with what their recommendations are. we hear, Eaghtyrane, there has been a feasibility study done. It is not about me saying here today we are going to be What is the secret about it? Why have not we seen it? a member of the international scene, because it is not about that, it is about a process, a parliamentary process that any Mr Quirk: You can ask to see it. Member in this Hon. Court can do for their Members or their constituents and that is what I am trying to revive, Eaghtyrane, Mr Downie: Because it is nothing to do with you, in this Hon. Court. That process that has disappeared in the anyway. last 20 years. So I hope the Hon. Member of Council does not think that I Mr Karran: Well, they do not have to give it us, anyway. want to destroy his women’s football or anything else, I am not That is why I think we should be looking at a select committee. trying to do that. I actually see this as being constructive and I think the point is that, Eaghtyrane, we have got to remember actually could be a golden opportunity for the Manx FA. I was we are talking about something that is a broad principle, disappointed that they have not seized this opportunity, to see something where we have to have vision, like I said in my whether it could push their way further than they realise. original speech, when we were talking about creating Manx I heard Mr Earnshaw – obviously he has got the postage stamps, we heard it was impossible. What would departmental viewpoint, as far as this – and he says that the happen in the fantastic imperialist postal service? Manx FA has investigated. Well, the select committee can The point is, all I am asking for (Interjection) – excuse have a look at that investigation and they might come back me, have I got the floor or has the Member of Council got and say, ‘No, we think that investigation that they have done the floor? We talk about standards, about not abuse should go is all that needs to be done’, but the thing is, the point is, that both ways. Now the point is, we have heard about the issue maybe the money that we get out of the present set up would about the Steam Packet Company event falling apart. I believe be far less than the money that we would be getting from the part of that is because of the facilities and other issues. This new set up. could be part of the select committee to be looking at, what That is something that a select committee needs to look at. Mr Quirk raises and I have to say, if the national stadium – Yes, there is the capital… because what I am told, Eaghtyrane, which, maybe, answers the question that I have got in my is that the same money goes to the English FA as to the French constituency, where we can have something that is going FA that will go to the Gibraltar FA. If that is the case, that is to look at football, look at athletics and look at the likes of something to be impressed about, apart from the marketing the cycle track that has just been turned down in the Onchan thing, so I do hope that the Member for Onchan, my colleague, Stadium… That is great. I have no problem with that. will reconsider his viewpoint, as far as this is concerned. Mr Lowey asks me why I have raised this question. It He makes the point about the stopping of Mark Cavendish was because of the success – actually it was not, to be honest being able to cycle for the UK and that. Where is the Manx with you. This is something that has been on the back-boiler football player that is going to be stopped from playing for for about 10 years and every so often people raise it with me, England, there is not one at the present time. I mean the point ‘Why do you not do something, because you are the sort that is, it is talking about chalk and cheese, in my opinion, and would be prepared to stand up and actually try and create the I believe that that issue is a nonsense and a non-starter. The debate and try and go against the flow in the parliament? You issue that was raised by the other Member of Council about are the man to do it.’ That is why it is here today, because people might have different criteria of their nationality is a people have asked me. problem, but I do not think it is an insurmountable problem, I have had – over the last 10 years I must have had a dozen as far as that is concerned. or so people come to me, ‘Oh, why do we not do it?’ Now, to I think the point is, to be perfectly honest with you, I would be fair the issue of Gibraltar and the issue of Jersey has helped be no more sure that his problem is insurmountable, than it is to create the impetus for the motion today and the point that I not insurmountable. The point is, that I think that is why he think we, as a parliament, should not be always doing things needs a select committee, Eaghtyrane. on the back of other people, we should occasionally develop Mr Butt, I would bow to his far better experience of the as a parliament the strategy that we see for the wellbeing of grass roots of football. I meet him often enough in the Shore the nation. Hotel with the boys from the Laxey Football Club. The issue The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey, is quite right. is, this motion is in front of you today and it reads: It is phenomenal, the money that they have put into it, from ‘That a select committee of three Members be appointed with powers the English FA, but how much more would come from to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the UEFA? I am led to believe there would be a lot more, but Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to examine and review the bottom line, Eaghtyrane, the Hon. Member of Council is the feasibility and costs of establishing a Football Association for the quite right, because he is wrong to give this impression that Isle of Man, independent of the English Football Association and a

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member in its own right of international bodies, and to report with The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment carries in the recommendations.’ House of Keys, with 19 votes for, and 4 votes against. What are we really so frightened about? Are we repeating history, like we did for so many years on so many things like In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0 Customs, like the Manx Post Service? Are we just repeating that? I believe this Court will be doing a disservice, long FOR AGAINST term, to the sport of football on this Island if you do not The Lord Bishop None Mr Lowey have this. Mr Waft I believe – the Hon. Member for Onchan, my colleague, Mr Butt talks about a national stadium – this is the way forward. Get Mr Gelling it investigated, warts and all, come back to this Hon. Court Mrs Crowe with a report saying this is not acceptable, or this is what you Mr Downie would have to do, this is the capital programme that you would have to put into your revenue and into your capital. Then The President: With 7 votes for, none against in there would be a debate about a clear strategy, not something the Council, Hon. Members, the amendment, therefore, worked out on the back of an envelope, but something that carries. could be down as a strategic developed strategy, with proper I put to you the motion, as amended. Those in favour, costings. please say aye; and against, no. The ayes have it. What are we really frightened about? Is it about personalities, or is it about a national parliament looking at A division was called for and voting resulted as an opportunity and trying to see whether it is feasible? Jersey follows: are looking at it at the present time, I have the information here below at the present time. In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 0 We can wait a bit longer, but why not be proactive, instead of reactive. It is left to this Hon. Court to decide whether it FOR AGAINST wants to miss this opportunity and it wants to put down a Mr Anderson None marker that, unfortunately, will embarrass the Member for Mr Cannan West Douglas at a later date that will say, ‘I told you so: we Mr Teare Mr Quayle should have done it then, we should have had the vision.’ Mr Brown Mr Watterson The President: Hon. Members, the motion before the Mr Gawne Court is that printed at Item 39 on your Order Paper, headed Mr Gill Football Association. To that, Hon. Members, you have in Mr Houghton the white paper circulated to you an amendment by the Hon. Mr Cretney Member for Rushen, Mr Gill, which replaces all the words Mr Malarkey Mr Braidwood after ‘That’. The amendment substitutes the words, ‘Tynwald Mrs Cannell sends its sincere congratulations to the Isle of Man Football Mr Corkish Association on their success in the National League System Mr Shimmin Cup and wishes them well in the forthcoming final round.’ Mr Crookall Hon. Members, I put to you, first, the amendment. Those Mrs Craine Mr Bell in favour, please say aye; against, no. Mr Karran Mr Earnshaw A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: Mr Quirk Mr Cregeen In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 4 The Speaker

FOR AGAINST The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the Mr Anderson Mr Malarkey Mr Cannan Mrs Cannell House of Keys, with 23 votes for, no votes against. Mr Teare Mr Crookall Mr Quayle Mr Karran In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0 Mr Brown Mr Watterson Mr Gawne FOR AGAINST Mr Gill The Lord Bishop None Mr Houghton Mr Lowey Mr Cretney Mr Waft Mr Braidwood Mr Butt Mr Corkish Mr Gelling Mr Shimmin Mrs Crowe Mrs Craine Mr Downie Mr Bell Mr Earnshaw Mr Quirk The President: Every Member voting for in the Council, Mr Cregeen Hon. Members, the motion, therefore, carries with unanimity The Speaker across the Court.

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Congratulations to Mr G Corkish, MHK Although politics has always been a key part of his life, on receipt of MBE Don has many other interests. He, as we all know, is a very keen golfer. I do not know whether the handicap will come The President: Hon. Members, that draws to a down on his retirement from Tynwald or not, but I do know conclusion the Order Paper before us at this particular stage. that he is looking forward to spending a little more time on However, Hon. Members, I would wish to place on record the golf course. a tribute to two Members of this Court today and make sure Autosport, Hon. Members, and football, already referred that it is on our record. to earlier this afternoon, are close to his heart and he is still First, I wish to offer the Court’s congratulations to the highly active in the affairs of his parish, particularly in his Hon. Member for West Douglas, Mr Geoffrey Corkish, local parish church. on receiving his MBE, Hon. Members. (Members: Hear, Hon. Members, from this particular sitting and from this hear.) (Applause) I have known Geoffrey Corkish for some particular Court we will miss the incisive and the helpful considerable time and know full well the time and the effort contributions that Donald Gelling has made to the debates that he has put into his work in assisting the cultural life of in this Hon. Court. His humour, Hon. Members, will be the Isle of Man. It is a deserved award and we offer him our missed, but we recognise the major part that he has played in congratulations. developing and promoting, first and foremost, the Isle of Man over the last 20 years or so and I am sure, Hon. Members, Members: Hear, hear. that you all would wish to join with me in wishing him a long, a healthy and a happy retirement from this particular building and for a very long future with wife Joan, who has been a continual support. Tribute to Mr D Gelling upon retirement Members: Hear, hear. (Applause) The President: Now, Hon. Members, I also wish to pay a very, very sincere tribute to the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Gelling: Mr President, at this hour I think I am still Mr Donald Gelling (Members: Hear, hear.) and I in no way on record as having the longest continuous speech ever in wish this tribute to sound, Donald, in any form an obituary! Tynwald, so I am not going to have anything like that tonight, (Laughter) but I think it does fall upon me to say thank you very, very Donald Gelling, CBE, CP, Hon. Members, Manx born much, Mr President, for what you have said. and bred, Manx to the core. Donald was first elected to I think there comes a time in your life when you see, as Tynwald as a Member of the House of Keys for Malew and I remember the – and I am not going to go through them all, Santon in 1986 and, Hon. Members, I can tell you that I Members, don’t worry – Medical Practitioners Board was the had many a conversation with Donald Gelling in the office first thing I was on. This was before I became a Member of of EB Christian’s, White Hoe, before that event happened. Tynwald and when I see the likes of John Wilson, who was But he was elected in 1986 and, prior to that, he served on the young administrator secretary, (Laughter) and he is now the Santon Parish Commissioners from 1961 and had been retired (Mr Lowey: Yes.) and I see the young John Cashen, chairman of his local branch of Commissioners on no less who I worked very closely with in Treasury, and the young than five occasions. Fred Kissack, all retired, you begin to wonder where you He was appointed, two years after being in this Court, have gone wrong. (Laughter) as Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, in 1988, So, Mr President, all I can say is thank you very much and then moved quickly to become Treasury Minister in to all Members, both present and past, for the courtesy that 1989, a post which he held until 1996, serving seven years I have always felt has been coming my way. I have enjoyed as our Treasury Minister. In 1996 Donald was elected as the every minute of it. I certainly wouldn’t have changed Island’s Chief Minister and served in that capacity until his anything. There were good times, there were bad times, but retirement from the post in 2002. I think the difficult times make you actually concentrate He was elected to the Legislative Council following that more and I think, as I have said, I would not have changed period and, in 2004, he was again elected as Chief Minister – anything. some would say, Hon. Members, he was ‘recalled’ to the Mr President, I will be still watching and very carefully post of Chief Minister and continued to hold that position monitoring what is going on, but certainly I wish everybody until December 2006. every success, because I am not part of the future. As I went Hon. Members, during his time in Tynwald, he has served to the breakfast yesterday morning and here today, I have on very many standing committees and select committees. I heard so many times about the ‘new administration’ and I have no intention whatsoever this evening, sir, of recording feel a little bit disappointed, perhaps, that this time I am them – they are available on the public record – but I would not part of it, Mr President. Nevertheless, as I say, thank say for each committee that he served, his wisdom, the depth you most sincerely for what you said tonight and for the of his knowledge has been greatly appreciated by every one Members and the way in which they have, in fact, given me of his colleagues who have served on committees with him. a good send off. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) Thank you very much. (Applause) It has always been uppermost in his mind to promote the interests of his Island home and he has worked tirelessly to The Court stood as a mark of appreciation. do so. He is well known overseas as an ambassador for our Island and has made some very, very important contacts, The President: Hon. Members, I am sure that Donald particularly latterly in the Gulf States, for which the Island would recognise that your applause tonight holds the esteem will be proud. that you hold for him.

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Hon. Members, having completed our Order Paper – not three matters of leave to introduce broadcast? always easy to have completed this particular session: we had lots of committees to fill, we had lots of difficulties in Mrs Cannell: Transparent government, quite clearly. getting there, nevertheless we have completed our Order Paper – the Council will now withdraw and leave the House The Speaker: Yes, I was requested by the Hon. Member of Keys to transact such business as their Speaker may wish for Michael, Mr Cannan, with the request that this be given to place before them. in relation to the motion seeking leave to introduce, as being Thank you, Hon. Members. in the public interest, that it be broadcast. Mrs Craine, Hon. Member for Ramsey. The Council withdrew at 6.17 p.m.. Mrs Craine: Mr Speaker, can I ask, then, is it intended that Question Time would be broadcast, then there would be a break of silence on the radio and that it would re-broadcast House of Keys at Item 8? The Speaker: No, Hon. Member, the intention would Manx Radio broadcasting of proceedings be that, given sufficient notice to Manx Radio, if it was the Motions lost will of the House this evening, the Question Time, which is normally to be broadcast, of course… the broadcast The Speaker: Hon. Members, will you please resume would resume, would carry on right through to the leave to your seats. introduce. As I said in my statement, there are a number of Hon. Members, you will by now have received the Order routine Items relating to elections, which ought not to be Paper for next Tuesday’s sitting on 23rd January. I have overly time consuming. That is the situation. received a request that the whole of that sitting be broadcast Hon. Member for Castletown, Chief Minister. by Manx Radio, in view, especially, of the issues raised by the motions seeking leave to introduce. Mr Brown: Yes, Thank you, Mr Speaker. When this question of broadcasting a sitting has been I think the only point I would like to make in asking a raised in the past, it has been usual for the Speaker to seek question, on the Order Paper for next week’s Keys we have the mind of the House before giving leave to Manx Radio leave to introduce for three Private Member’s Bills. Could and since there is time before that sitting, I wish to do the I ask what the view will be then, if the week after we have same on this occasion. another leave to introduce, are they going to be broadcast? I am aware that some consideration of the broadcasting of I would make the point, with respect – I agree fully with the proceedings of the House, as a matter of routine practice, you, sir – that the issue needs to be sorted out one way or has previously taken place in the Management and Members’ the other by our Management and Standards Committee and Standards Committee and I would propose that that new I wonder whether or not it is more appropriate – and I just committee should revisit the issue and report to the House make the comment for the House – that, in fact, that is the on the matter in any event. time we should make such a decision. Nevertheless, as I say, there is a request for broadcasting to be considered in relation to 23rd January and there has, as The Speaker: I would say, Hon. Member, the decision I have indicated, Hon. Members, been agreement on occasion is entirely in the hands of this House. What we decide for in the last House for the broadcasting of important debates, next Tuesday is purely in relation to next Tuesday. It does the last one being in connection with the Report of the Select not confer automatic consent for the following Tuesday or Committee of the House on action by the Cheshire Police. That any other Tuesday. was an occasion when the entire debate was on one subject. I did indicate that the general matter, as to whether, in On this occasion, other matters intervene before the leave principle, broadcasting of the Keys should take place will debates are reached. Given that these relate to elections be considered by the Members’ Standards Committee. I am to various posts, which ought not to occupy very much purely asking for your view in relation to next Tuesday. time, this should not significantly affect the suitability for Mr Karran. broadcast of the business overall. I would, nonetheless, as I have said, Hon. Members, be Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I would like to glad to know the mind of the House and I therefore ask, propose that we actually make a decision tonight. Let us have are Hon. Members content that the sitting of the House on broadcasting of the House of Keys from next week onwards, the 23rd should be broadcast in full. (Several Members: as far as the issue is concerned and I propose that. Agreed.) It should not matter who it comes from. In this national Mr Earnshaw. assembly it is about the rights and wrongs of the issue. I long for the day when that becomes a reality. Mr Earnshaw: Yes, I would just like to ask, Mr Speaker, I personally feel, if it is a problem for the Hon. House, who has made the request? I am happy to withdraw my motion for next week if that is going to stop it being broadcast, but what I do believe is that Mr Karran: Does that matter? we should have a motion in front of us today saying, as the House of Keys, we do not need the Standards Committee Mr Earnshaw: I would like to ask, nevertheless, who to decide this issue. We believe in transparency and has made the request, why the request has been made and accountability: then let us support a motion today that, from what is the specific benefit of having, on this occasion, these the next sitting of this Hon. House, new administration, it

Tribute to Mr D Gelling upon retirement House of Keys – Manx Radio broadcasting of proceedings – Motions lost House of Keys TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 223 T124 will be broadcast the same as this Hon. Chamber. that the Speaker had already issued his direction from the I move: Chair before we were even called upon to comment, or support or to go against the motion that Mr Speaker put. In That, with effect from the next sitting of this House, all so moving also, Mr Speaker did say that he was going to… proceedings should be broadcast by Manx Radio. he was asking specifically in relation to the one sitting which is scheduled for next Tuesday, but thereafter he wished to I hope someone would second it. refer it to the Committee for them to report and come back Let’s have a debate, let’s have a vote on it, Vainstyr to the House of Keys. Loayreyder, and if the majority win, that is the decision. The Speaker has already ruled from the Chair, Hon. Make a decision. Member for Onchan. I do not believe, therefore, that we should disrespect the ruling of the Chair at this juncture in The Speaker: Hon. Members, I am, from the Chair, time, even though I support you one hundred per cent, sir. prepared to put a motion in relation to next Tuesday. I have So I think we should go with what Mr Speaker has said indicated what will happen in relation to the general question. and, thereafter, when the report comes from the Standing I would, therefore, move from the Chair: Committee, then we can start moving amendments and go for more open and transparent government. That the full proceedings of the House on 23rd January 2007 be broadcast. The Speaker: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson. Those in favour, please say aye; those against. The noes have it. Mr Watterson: Yes, Mr Speaker. I have got no problem with openness and transparency. A division was called for and voting resulted as I am a big advocate for that, but I do think that we would follows: be better off giving listeners to Manx Radio next Tuesday something worthwhile to listen to. FOR AGAINST I do think that they are forced to listen to us long enough Mr Cannan Mr Anderson as it is, to be perfectly honest, and I think it is about giving Mr Houghton Mr Teare Mr Cretney Mr Quayle Manx Radio listeners the choice. But I just do not see the Mr Malarkey Mr Brown benefit, Mr Speaker – and not just talking about next Tuesday, Mrs Cannell Mr Watterson but I am talking about going forward… Mr Crookall Mr Gawne Mr Karran Mr Gill The Speaker: The situation is, Hon. Members, that a Mr Quirk Mr Braidwood Mr Cregeen Mr Corkish motion has been made, a procedural motion, by the Hon. The Speaker Mr Shimmin Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. It is quite in order that that Mrs Craine motion be made. It has not, as yet, been seconded. Mr Bell Mr Earnshaw Mrs Cannell: I supported…

The Speaker: Hon. Members, that motion fails to carry, The Speaker: The decision made earlier – with 10 votes for and 13 votes against. Thank you, Hon. Members. Mrs Cannell: Point of order, sir. I did say I supported him. Mr Karran: Mr Speaker, as a Member of this Hon. House, I have the same rights and privileges as any other The Speaker: If I may finish, Hon. Member, the decision Member of this Hon. House. I proposed, in front of this that you have made is simply in relation to next week’s House today, that from the next sitting of this Hon. House broadcast of the Keys, while my motion from the Chair is we should broadcast that position, whoever is on the agenda. a procedural issue. I believe that it does not need any sub-committee of this Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan, has moved that Hon. House to make that fundamental decision: either Hon. broadcasting of the Keys take place thereafter. This has not, Members of this Hon. House are for the proposal for it to be as yet, been seconded. broadcast live for sittings of the House of Keys in the future, or they are not and they are against. Mr Quirk: Can I put a motion up, Mr Speaker, that we I hope that one of the Ministers will second this proposal respect the decision of the Chair. in the interests of open government and transparency, that we will from the next sitting of this Hon. House have live Mr Malarkey: Can I second, Mr Speaker, the motion. broadcast. I believe that that should be the case. I beg to move. The Speaker: Hon. Member for Castletown, Chief Minister. Mrs Cannell: Mr Speaker, if I may, sir, if I may. Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr Speaker. The Speaker: Mrs Cannell. I do not wish to be awkward. I am just concerned that a motion has been thrown at the floor of the House (Members: Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hear, hear) without it being on any Order Paper (Interjection) My understanding of this situation, Hon. Members, is and I would ask the Secretary of the House to clarify that

House of Keys – Manx Radio broadcasting of proceedings – Motions lost 224 T124 TYNWALD COURT, WEDNESDAY, 17th JANUARY 2007 House of Keys situation, because I think it would be helpful for us all to Hon. House and support the proposal in front of you, that what understand. Then I would wish to contribute to the debate, we are going to do is vote that the House of Keys is broadcast sir. on the same criteria as Tynwald sittings are broadcast. Nothing revolutionary. It is about whether we support The Speaker: Thank you. I call on the Secretary to the issue or we do not support the issue. clarify. I beg to move the motion be now taken and Members can vote whichever way their alignment can allow them to The Secretary: Mr Speaker, I indicated to you that my vote. view was that, as a procedural motion, it was in order for it to be raised from the floor without notice. The Speaker: Hon. Members, a procedural motion has been moved. I will ask the Secretary to read out the text of Mr Brown: But this is not… This is an actual motion that motion so that we are quite clear what we are voting about… sorry, this is a motion about the House and its future for. and how it operates. I mean it is procedural in one way, but it is a full debate. The Secretary: Mr Speaker, I have taken down I accept that, anyway, if I can, Mr Speaker, and would the motion as: ‘That this House should consent to the like to speak on the issue. broadcasting of proceedings henceforth.’

The Speaker: If you wish to make a contribution, sir. The Speaker: Hon. Members, those in favour, please say aye; against no. The noes have it. Mr Brown: As somebody who has promoted the broadcasting of proceedings both in Tynwald and in the A division was called for and voting resulted as House of Keys I am very much in favour of that, but I do follows: think we have to manage it properly. There are implications for the broadcaster and I think that it is only appropriate that FOR AGAINST the management committee we have set up in fact take the Mr Cannan Mr Anderson opportunity to, as Tynwald Management did, discuss with Mr Malarkey Mr Teare Mr Karran Mr Quayle the management of Manx Radio how they will introduce Mr Quirk Mr Brown the broadcasting, because there are cost implications to Mr Watterson them. We need to ensure that we act responsibly in taking Mr Gawne this forward. Mr Gill I one hundred per cent believe we should broadcast all Mr Houghton Mr Cretney the proceedings of the branches and of Tynwald Court. We Mr Braidwood do it for Tynwald Court. The sooner we do it for the House Mrs Cannell of Keys, the better, but I do believe we should, as a House, Mr Corkish act responsibly and give the management committee the Mr Shimmin opportunity to properly negotiate, report back to the House Mr Crookall and the House make a proper decision, on that view, with Mrs Craine Mr Bell regard to taking the matter forward. Mr Earnshaw But my view is I would ask the committee to deal with Mr Cregeen it as a matter of urgency, sir. The Speaker

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, The Speaker: Hon. Members, the procedural motion to reply. fails to carry, with 4 votes for and 19 votes against. Thank you, Hon. Members. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would take it that this Finally, may I remind you that nominations of candidates proposal in front of us would be on the same criteria, as far for election to the Legislative Council must be received by as the House of Keys is concerned, as for this Hon. Court the Secretary by 5.00 p.m. this Friday, for the election due here today. I do not see what the big problem is. in the House on 30th January. Quite frankly, I do not mind who gets the credit for doing I now adjourn the House to the sitting in our own it, so long as it is done in the interests of public information Chamber at 10.00 a.m. on Tuesday, 23rd January and transparency. I believe this Hon. House should make the decision today. Are they for the broadcasting of the House The House adjourned at 6.34 p.m. of Keys on the same basis as Tynwald Court, which is what I would have expected it to be, anyway? Why you would need a committee to decide on it is beyond me. CORRIGENDUM Let us just bite the bullet, let us make a decision and let us On page 168 T124 for ‘1st May 2006’ read ‘1st May use our heads, as far as the situation and have a free vote in this 2007’.

House of Keys – Manx Radio broadcasting of proceedings – Motions lost