Click here for Full Issue of Fidelio Volume 1, Number 4, Winter 1992

-_.. INTERVIEW -.------

'Why God passed the baton to Lyndon LaRouche, the Martin Luther King baton, I don't know. But I'm of the same opinion as Amelia Robinson, that that movement to redeem this nation that was led by Dr. Martin Luther King, God has chosen Lyndon LaRouche to lead.' -Rev. James Bevel Schiller Institute Conference Sept. 5, 1992

received a letter from Leo Tolstoy. Ei­ ther the letter was written specifically to him or it was a generally written letter. What Tolstoy said in the letter was that the Indians should be ashamed of themselves, pretending that a handful of ordinary, not particu­ larly intelligent Englishmen could op­ press 400 million freedom-loving Indi­ ans. He said that's scandalous, and the Indians should be honest enough to admit that they were crafty, nasty, and Reverend James Bevel: lazy, and that if they had an ounce of dignity and freedom in them they would literally repel such a small, in­ 'One Man Maintaining Integrity' significant fo rce. So, Gandhi was probably the only The Reverend James Bevel was one of of Non-Violent Education in the Poor Indian who took him seriously. And Martin Luther King, Jr. 's closest associ­ People's Campaign. In 1984, he devel­ Gandhi started dealing with the ques­ ates in the Civil Rights movement. In oped and directed the Studentsfo r Educa ­ tion, In what way am I participating 1960, he was the cofounder of the Stu­ tion and Economic Development. In in my own oppression? So as he started dent No n-violent Coordinating Commit­ 1992, the Rev. Bevel ran fo r Vice Presi­ developing his movement, then people tee (SNCC) . In 1963, he organized the dent of the United States on the indepen­ would say, "Well, you won this strug­ Children's Marches in Birmingham, Ala­ dent ticket headed by Lyndon LaRouche. gle because the masses were involved." bama and laterin the same year initiated Th is interview was conducted by Mari­ And he said, "No, it is not the masses. the March on Washington. In 1965 he anna Wertz on August 26, 1992. The masses participated from time to was the director of Non -Violent Direct time. It's one man maintaining integ­ Action fo r the Southern Christian Lead­ Fidelio: You refer to Mahatma Gan­ rity." And the whole question of Satya­ ership Conference (SCLC) and co -au­ dhi's principle that a mass movement graha was the whole business of hold­ thor and director of the Selma Right to is based on one man standing alone fo r ing on to truth. Vo te Movement. In 1966, he developed the truth. Can you elaborate on what In other words, if there's a social and directed the Chicago Open Housing he meant by this and how it has fo und disorder and one person comprehends Movement. In 1967, he was the Director its place in your life and work? that social disorder, and no one else of the Mobilization to End the Wa r in Bevel: What happened was that when at that point comprehends it but that Vietnam. In 1968, he was the director Gandhi was a very young man, he person, then that person is compelled

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© 1992 Schiller Institute, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission strictly prohibited. by the law of nature to live the truth true, but you don't know it. But once love. Once you don't maintain love, so consistently and persistently, that you're honest about the belief, even if fo r whatever reason, you are not prac­ that truth is manifested and finally it's defective, it will be revealed to you ticing the religion that Jesus Christ learned by someone else. And so the that it is defective. Once your methods practiced. Then he says that what hap­ whole idea is that one person stand are righteous, once your motives are pens to everybody else is they fa ll be­ up and do so non-violently; in time just and your motivation is love, you'll neath the love, then start trying to someone else will stand up. And then be able to bring about that justice. fa lsly interpret Jesus and claim that once another person stands up, then he didn't know what he was talking you get a chain reaction. Fidelio: I recall reading Mahatma about, because they don't want to prac­ What I discovered when I read that Gandhi on this subject, saying that the tice this principle of love. in 1959, was that I didn't really believe firsttime Satyagraha was actually prac­ He said, now there are other reli­ it. So one of the things that I decided ticed was by Jesus Christ, whom he gious leaders who make love one of the to do--I didn't know how to be popu­ called the first non-violent soldier fo r many principles, but in Jesus' teaching, lar, or how to win a handsome or the truth. I also read that Martin Lu­ love is the central core of the religion. beauty contest, or how to make fo lks ther King, J r. founded his movement, I find that to be true, just in terms of vote fo r me in terms of organization­ of which you are a principal leader, on my own life. but one of the things I said I could do, the combination of the thoughts and When I read that, I thought, that is was I could maintain integrity. That preaching of Jesus Christ and Ma­ true. When I am operating with less is, I do know when I'm being honest hatma Gandhi. Do you also take this than love, and I often do, I know I'm and dishonest. So it was like, okay, if as the basis of your philosophy? not doing what is right, I'm operating this is true, then I can test it and prove Bevel: Yes. I would like to add a per­ beneath the dignity of my responsibil­ whether it's true or not. son: Leo Tolstoy, who wrote The ity. So I knew he was telling the truth. So in Nashville, Tennessee, I tested Kingdom of God Is Within Yo u. That Then the question came up, what it and proved it. That if one person was the book that gave Gandhi the do I do to overcome the anger and the maintains integrity, that person will true interpretation of the Sermon on fe ar and the lust that is keeping me have the power to bring about change. the Mount. Because in that book, Tol­ from maintaining the state of love, so Although there may be a lot of actors stoy argues that you have to maintain that my thinking is always reasonable. and a lot of dynamics, it will take one person comprehending a problem, be­ ing truthful about it, doing the appro­ priate analysis and interpretation, op­ erating from truth which they either know or believe to be true. The reason I say know and believe is because, when you firststart working, there are a lot of beliefs that are not

'People would say to Gandhi, You won because the masses were involved. And he would say , No, it's not the masses; it's one man maintaining integrity. If one person comprehends a social disorder, and no one else at that point comprehends it but that person, then that person is compelled by the law of nature to live the truth

so consistendy, that the truth is E ., I manifested and finally learned l; 8' by someone else.' �z a: W

67 Fidelio: What do you do? terioration and the decline were too But the people wouldn't stand up fo r Bevel: First you have to agree that great when I got there. what was right and refuse to accept that's true and that's right. Now if you So he asked me to come to Bir­ something less. And I said, now if you don't agree that it's true and right, mingham, and when I got there they guys stand up now-and we did it in then you can always findju stifications, couldn't get but eight or nine people Nashville, we did it in the theaters, we alibis, and rationalizations. But if you to demonstrate a day, and the little did it on the freedom rides-and if agree that it's right, it causes you to group was dueling and fo menting and you do it, you will have the opportu­ start examining your conduct and they couldn't get people to go to jail. nity to change history, because once statements that come from fe ar, and At that time I was running the Green­ you stand up and don't sit back down, your conduct and statements that wood, Mississippi group. So I came you write a new chapter in history, come from lust, and your conduct and over and my suggestion was that the because you're going to have to negoti­ statements that come from anger. And movement as they were running it was ate a new social contract. once you discuss them and expose a scam, because you are putting people So I said you've got to test it. And them to yourself and others, then it in jail and getting them out the same they said, "Suppose Dr. King sells us gives you the opportunity to look into evening and letting them demonstrate out?" I said, It has nothing to do with them. And then looking into them, tomorrow; so that it could look like that. If you and I maintain integrity, you discover that they are built up you've got eight people moving, but we can change anything. As long as from a bunch of fa lse assumptions, you don't in reality. any two people maintain integrity, and fa lse premises, and fa lse conclusions. In Birmingham you've got two col­ whatever is wrong you say is wrong, And then you start taking down these leges, you've got twelve high schools just like you go against Bull Conner fa lse assumptions, false premises, and in the city. I said, you ought to go out and he's wrong, then if Dr. King is fa lse conclusions. and take the young people and teach wrong you go against him, and you just keep standing up fo r truth, and don't you settle for less than what you 'Tolstoy argues that once you don't maintain love, know is right. And then right will be the outcome. you are not practicing the religion that Jesus Christ So, of course, the rest of it is history. practiced. If you fall beneath the love, then you start Now, there was a lot of flakabout that trying to fa lsely interpret Jesus and claim that he didn't demonstration, because I did organize the students, and at one point King know what he was talking about, because you don't was put under a lot of pressure from want to practice this principle of love.' John Kennedy, not to let the students demonstrate. I had to break rank with King on that and veto his vote. At one Fidelio: What I believe was your first them how non-violence works, and point the police were trying to create mass organizing experience, was the when they're taught what the issues riots by putting dogs and stuff on peo­ children's participation in the non-vio­ are, they'll get involved and stick with ple, and I had to quell the violence. lent demonstrations in Birmingham. it just like you will. In, fa ct the decision to march on Can you describe how that trans­ So I took a projector, we didn't have Washington was the result of a strate­ fo rmed the Civil Rights movement? videos and tapes in those days. We had gic move to get Kennedy to back up Bevel: If you recall, in 1962, SNCC 16-millimeter projectors. I took the off King. It meant, if you come down and Dr. King and SCLC had been projector and the Nashville sit-in here bothering people about what working in Albany, Georgia. They'd movie and a documentary of Gandhi, we're doing, and we're doing what had a real bad setback. The chief of and I went around and showed that to we're doing the right way, then we'll police was Pritchard, and King and the students every evening and talked do the same thing to you. So the march SNCC were in conflict between the with them and ran workshops. What on Washington came out of that kind two organizations and the local people, I taught them is in William Sloane of interaction. and that movement was effectively Coffin'sbook-I didn't even know it, crushed. but he came to the meeting and was Fidelio: I'd like, since you've met both So in 1963, I was working pretty listening, and he wrote what I said. Martin Luther King and Lyndon much with SCLC. I had started work­ What I essentially told the young peo­ LaRouche, if you could, to make a ing with them just about the time they ple is, you think that oppression is comparison between the two men: went to Albany. I had preached with caused by white people. But's it's al­ qualities they share or are different, as the SNCC organization. In fact Dr. ways a cooperation between white you see it. King asked me to come to Albany be­ people and black people. If the black Bevel: Let me say that coming out of cause there was such strife going on people had been responsible, segrega­ the wilderness is a growth process. between the organizations. But the de- tion and slavery wouldn't have existed. There are two issues that Jesus

68 'Once the American people recognize that there is someone who is right, and the method he is using is right, the American people are a marvelous revolutionary people. It is imperative that we put a constitutional administration in the American White House. In eight years, I can get that done.'

Fidelio: You've said that the move­ ment associated with LaRouche and yourself is in a "ground war" that will take approximately eight years to suc­ ceed. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that, and what that requires? Bevel: Normally, if the news media in preached, that are so radically diffe r­ Lyndon LaRouche has worked out this country were just, and would give ent, and yet they both have to be mas­ both of those problems. One, the ques­ us-they don't have to agree with tered before one can really become a tion of loving the enemy; and the us-but just give us honest coverage fu nctional Christian. One of them con­ other, not lusting after sisters. Which on issues (we are candidates, after all); cerns not loving the enemy; the other means that he extends the principle of and if we were interviewed and asked one is looking at women and lusting. love to male and fe male and blacks questions about the diffe rent and vari­ Jesus said both of these are a violation and whites without exception. King ous things; then just in the normal of the law. had not arrived at that consciousness, course of events, fifty-one percent of Up to the King period we accepted because he had not addressed that sec­ the people would vote fo r Lyndon the first issue, but we did not spend ond principle. LaRouche and James Bevel. This is the time and energy working through So, in that sense, you would have just based on the American people be­ the dynamic of the second one. Be­ King coming out of Egypt across the ing reasonably intelligent. There's cause King did not work through the Red Sea into the wilderness; and you nothing wrong with the American dynamic of the second principle, he have the principles that LaRouche has people. The American people know was not able to institutionalize the discovered. His definition of economics that something's wrong. Understand movement. That is, he was not able is a definitionof a man who has resolved that. to comprehend the real principle of the contradiction of using fe males for Our firstpress conference was obvi­ economics. If a man does not overcome sexual pleasure and not for the purpose ously boycotted, based on an in-house looking at a fe male and lusting fo r her, fo r which God created males and fe ­ clique agreement among the slaves his lust makes him read into the fe male males and human sexuality. who call themselves journalists. There a fa lse definitionof what and who she are no journalists in the media in is, which makes him lose his own iden­ Fidelio: That also goes to the question America. All of them are Mississippi tity. So he fa lls into a romantic rela­ of using human being as slaves. Negro day hands. That's what they tionship, but he then cannot maintain Bevel: Absolutely. Slave labor comes are. a conscious, reasoning relationship from that. That's the core of it. If a So you don't have a media. You with the fe male, because in his mind, man does not clean up his lustful don't have journalists. You have slaves either overtly or covertly, he's manipu­ thinking and activity, he never will be and soup hounds, people who are lating to get her into a sexual experi­ totally against slavery. He will settle working to get money to buy cocaine, ence, and he never will understand the fo r the rearrangement of slavery in cars, and clothes. You don't have jour­ principles by which institutions another fo rm, but he wouldn't work nalists who are committed to the emerge and develop. to get it resolved. American Revolution and advocating

69 'You have to acknowledge that there is no education at this point. Education is designed scientifically to help a human being be the living soul that God made him to be; in the image and likeness of God, as God made him to be; to exercise dominion over other creatures, that's what God made him to do. If the education doesn't help him or her to achieve that objective, then it's not education.' and defending the constitutional inter­ ests and rights of the American people. You don't have that. If you did have an honest media, then our message would get out, as being the most relevant. But in that they have agreed with the criminals in municate. But what I know is this: If you teach people not to pray, then the White House, and the criminals in once the American people recognize you're teaching people not to think. the state houses, and the criminals on that there is someone who is right, and Since prayer has been taken out of the bench, and the criminal drug-deal­ the method they are using is right­ schools, there has not been any educa­ ers, to destroy the American people the American people are a marvelous tion in the schools. and not allow the authentic constitu­ revolutionary people. So, the first thingyou have to agree, tional interests to be advocated and I am going to be working on this is that there is no education. And the spoken through their media, it means until November. And then, we are go­ reason you have to agree to this is that we're going to have to go directly ing to put a constitutional administra­ because, if you don't agree, they can to the people. tion in the American White House. It get you to participate in mis-education So my position is, first of all, I'm is imperative that we have a constitu­ fo r the next ten thousand years. If you not going to take that kind of insult. tionally conscious person in that White agree that that is not education, then I'm not going to say that's bad, tuck House. In eight years, I can get that you can organize a movement to put my tail and run, and fa ll over and play done. education in. But in social science you dead. I say, okay, you guys are playing have to deal in reality. dirty, fine, then I will do what I do Fidelio: Fidelia is committed to bring­ Education is that learning, disci­ best: fightground wars. That's what I ing about a renaissance in Classical pline, administrative process, which can do. culture in the U.S. American children brings a human being to economic in­ So I will organize the American -most particularly black American dependence and institutional sover­ people, and I will have an election. children-have almost no contact with eignty. If the administration of the Whether that means developing a na­ the Classics except perhaps in church. learning process is not applied to that tional newspaper that goes into every What is your view of how education sufficiently,we cannot scientifically call home, or eventually getting so many can be improved to create literate, it education. Just as H20 is water: more people involved that what we write is thinking, creative human beings again or less, and it's something else. In order duplicated by our fr iends across the among the youth in our country. fo r it to be water, ithas to be H20. Edu­ nation. But in eight years, I can orga­ Bevel: The firstthing you have to ac­ cation operates the same way. If ex­ X nize the country. knowledge and admit is that, there is ists, then education exists. If -l or X We might win this year. I don't no education at this point. Jesus made 2 exist, that is not education. X + know. It depends on whether we have the statement, that man must always Education is designed scientifically enough decay, and we hit the right pray, and not fa int. So, he said that in to help a human being be the living medium in terms of the people to com- order to thin� one has to be in prayer. soul that God made him to be; in the

70 image and likeness of God, as God worms. Because I was interested in Fidelio: Fidelia takes its name from made him to be; to exercise dominion knowing how, if I'm going to be non­ the Beethoven opera about the fight over other creatures, that's what God violent, how would I fa il in being non­ fo r freedom of a just man. You an­ made him to do. If the education violent? How would I have non-vio­ nounced as one of your chief qualifi­ doesn't help him or her to achieve that lence as a way oflife in every sphere of cations for the Vice Presidency, that objective, then it's not education. my existence? Once you start making you are experienced at getting good Now, what will we do? We will something happen, you've got to study men out of prison. How do you think pass legislation, and make available aid history and science. LaRouche will be released from and support, to schools that establish a So, by being an apprentice in prison? prayer curriculum. That is, the history church, government, business, clinic, Bevel: I think that when a sufficient and science of church, the history and home, and school, this will automati­ number of people recognize that Bush science of government, the history and cally drive the students' minds to hook is a criminal and that he has locked up science of business, the history and sci­ up with all rational minds in all of LaRouche to hide his criminality. The ence of clinic, the history and science history. And then they will stop identi­ American people are generally just; so, of home, the history and science of edu ­ fy ing with racists, and start identifying once they know the facts, it doesn't cation. Then the child will have to be with intelligent thought. Then they take long for people to organize. Peo­ in theory, lab, and apprenticeship in will figure fo r their ancestors, those ple will start to ask, How can I get to those six institutional processes. They who committed themselves to integ­ know LaRouche? will be taught the prayer, but within rity throughout history. Then, every­ Well, just stop telling lies fo r fo rty the context of the prayer curriculum: body will just normally know Tolstoy, days! Anyone who won't tell lies fo r

• Our Father-theology, church; Schiller, and all the other thinkers and fo rty days, will readily run into Lyn­

• Thy kingdom come-sociology, gov­ scientists. don LaRouche. Because once you ernment; Anybody who's in mechanical arts, don't know lies, you can know the

• Give us this day our daily bread-ecol­ would just automatically have to know truth. Once you're a liar, you don't ogy, industry, and business; Fulton, who created the four-stroke have a mechanism or a tool by which

• Forgive us as we fo rgive-psychology, engine, and so on and so fo rth. Once to know the truth. clinic; you start into the sciences, you hook Once we set off among young peo­

• Lead us not into temptation-biology, up with the Classical education. And ple a movement of practicing not lying home; what I'm talking about is practical. fo r fo rty days, which is going to make

• Deliver us fr om evil-anthropology, What else we would do, is to intro­ people start being very articulate, very school. duce legislation called constitutional inquisitive-that's what not lying So the child will be taught to initi­ development legislation. We would does!-and once there's a massive ate, develop, maintain, and administer make resources and fe deral grants movement among young people not to those six institutions. available to people, to study in the eve­ lie, they will readily come to see the The science that the child would nings and on the weekends how to crookedness in Bush and the have to learn to do that is obvious. But build precinct councils, with church straightness in LaRouche. Then they'll what the child will learn as you start committees, government committees, just turn Bush out, they'll tell the man, working to develop these, is that business committees, clinic committees, Go to the hospital and get yourself well. throughout history there have been home committees, school committees. It's just that simple. The American various evolutions of all of these insti­ So that, when problems, issues, and system is run by the American people. tutions. So when the child starts trying needs come up, you have town meet­ But the people have to be conscious to do this, he starts asking questions. ings at the precinct level going on in a enough to express a true position-I He starts trying to build something. continuum. Under the law, they don't even use the word opinion, I "Where can I get a transformer?" Go would have to keep records, minutes, mean a true position: "You cannot stay to the yellow pages. Start going to the accounts, and receipts, and report to in the White House and keep the files library. So, the research will drive the Secretary of State in each state. hidden on those you have assassinated them into the Classical thinkers. Which means that you would have a and incarcerated. Because you're not My searching to free myself without fu nctional, constitutional, democratic trying to protect the national interest killing people, drove me into Gandhi republic at the precinct level, with and the Constitution of the people, you and Tolstoy. I never would have gone town meetings that hold themselves are protecting your hideous, homosex­ into these men, if I had not been look­ accountable and hold their elected of­ ual, murderous friends. So we're not ing for a tool by which to free myself ficials accountable; which would give interested in that. If you guys want to while maintaining the principles of them, fo r the first time, the scientific go somewhere and confess and repent, Christ. mechanism by which the legitimate fine,we'r e not after you, but you're not That's true in everything. I got off will and needs of the people are fed going to be holding us hostage under into agriculture, in terms of how to into the city, county, state, and Federal our government to hide your per­ grow food without destroying earth- legislative bodies. versity."

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