Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination--A National Perspective

Home , Certain Blacks, Ethnic joke, Racial polarization

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TITLE Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination--A National Perspective. Executive Summary and Transcript of Hearing before the United States Commission on Civil Rights (Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992). INSTITUTION Commission on Civil Rights, Washington, D.C. PUB DATE May 92 NOTE 210p.; For Volume I of the related reports, see ED 359 294. For Volume III, see UD 031 687. CONTRACT RR93002016 PUB TYPE Reports Evaluative (142) EDRS PRICE MF01/PC09 Plus Postage. DESCRIPTORS Civil Rights; *Conflict; *Cultural Differences; Demography; Economic Factors; Elementary Secondary Education; Equal Education; Equal Opportunities (Jobs); *Ethnic Relations; Leadership; Mass Media Effects; *Racial Discrimination; Racial Relations; Social Problems IDENTIFIERS *Tension

ABSTRACT In February 1991 the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights began a long- term study of the factors contributing to increased racial and ethnic tensions in the United States. This document is a summary of key points made at a National Perspectives Hearing that was part of this study. Following 2 days of testimony and the discussions of eight panels, five key themes emerged from the hearing as primary causes of persistent, and insome cases, increased racial and ethnic tensions:(1) crisis in leadership;(2) media portrayal of existing tensions;(3) deficiencies in the educational system; (4) disparities on the criminal justice system; and (5) growing economic inequality. In addition to these themes, many witnesses testified that the nature of racial and ethnic tension has been transformed as a result of the rapid demographic reconstitution of American society. The hearingsummary begins with a synopsis of empirical data offered by various witnesses in support of the perception that racial and ethnic tensions are on the rise. The summary then provides overviews of the circumstances of the national denial of tensions and the primary causes of persistent racial and ethnic tension. The panels were titled:(1) Racial and Ethnic Tensions--Part 1; (2) Racial and Ethnic Tensions--Part 2;(3) Hate Incidents;(4) Changing Demographics;(5) Multiculturalism;(6) Socioeconomic Factors, Part 1; (7) Socioeconomic Factors, Part 2; and (8) Civil Rights. (SLD)

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I. Mfl U.S. Commission on Civil Rights The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is an independent, bipartisan agency first established by Congress in 1957 and reestablished in 1983. It is directed to: O Investigate complaints alleging that citizens are being deprived of their right to vote by reason of their race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin, or by reason of fraudulent practices; Study and collect information relating to discrimination or a denial of equal protection of the laws under the Constitution because of race, color, religion,sex, age, disability, or national origin, or in the administration of justice; O Appraise Federal laws and policies with respect to discrimination or denial of equal protection of the laws because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability,or national origin, or in the administration of justice; Serve as a national clearinghouse for information in respect to discriminationor denial of equal protection of the laws because of race, color, religion,sex, age, disability, or national origin; O Submit reports, findings, and recommendations to the President and Congress; Issue public service announcements to discourage discriminationor denial of equal protection of the laws. Members of the Commission Mary Frances Berry, Chairperson Cruz Reynoso, Vice Chairperson* Carl A. Anderson Arthur A. Fletchert Robert P. George* Constance Horner* Russell G. Redenbaugh Charles Pei Wang

Mary K. Mathews, Staff Director*

* Was not a member of the Commission at the time of the hearing. t Was Chairperson of the Commission at the time of the hearing. :k Was not Staff Director of the Commission at the time of the hearing. Hearing Before the United States Commission on Civil Rights

Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination A National Perspective

Executive Summary and Transcript of Hearing Held in Washington, D.C.

May 21-22, 1992 Contents

Executive Summary 1 Sessions May 21, 1992, Morning Session 19 May 21, 1992, Afternoon Session 69 May 22, 1992, Morning Session 114 May 22, 1992, Afternoon Session 160 Opening Statement Chairperson Arthur A. Fletcher 19 Statement on Commission Rules Commissioner Mary Frances Berry 21 Panel One. Overview Panel I: Racial and Ethnic TensionsPart 1 Ellis Cose, Editorial Page Editor, New York Daily News, author of A Nation of Strangers: Prejudice, Politics, and the Populating of America 22 Joe Feagin, Professor of Sociology, University of Florida; author of The Bubbling Cauldron: Racial and Ethnic Issues in U.S. Cities (in preparation with M.P. Smith)24 Andrew Hacker, Professor of Political Science, Queens College, City University of New York; author of Two Nations: Black and White, Separate, Hostile, Unequal ... 26 Arthur Kropp, President, People for.the American Way; author of Democracy's Next Generation 28 Manning Marable, Professor of Political Science, History and Sociology, Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race in America, University of Colorado at Boulder; author of The Crisis of Color and Democracy 29 Clarence Page, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist, Chicago Tribune 32 Panel Two. Overview Panel II: Racial and Ethnic TensionsPart 2 Arthur Flemming, Chairman, Citizens Commission for Civil Rights and National Education Commission 48 Edward A. Hailes, Jr., Counsel, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 49 Charles Kamasaki, Vice President, Office of Research, Advocacy, and Legislation, National Council of LaRaza 51 John Kromkowski, President, National Center for Urban Ethnic Affairs 53 Daphne Kwok, Executive Director, Organization of Chinese Americans, Inc. 55 Albert Mokhiber, President, American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee 58 Panel Three. Hate Incidents Howard Ehrlich, Director of Research, National Institute Against Prejudice and Violence 69 Grace Flores Hughes, Director, Community Relations Service, U.S. Department of Justice 72 Jess Hordes, Washington Director, Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith 74 Danny Welch, Director, Klanwatch 75 Harper Wilson, Section Chief, Uniform Crime Reports Section, Federal Bureau of Investigation 77 5 Panel Four. Changing Demographics William O'Hare, Director of Population and Policy Research, University of Louisville . 94 Evelyn Hu-Dehart, Director, Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race in America, University of Colorado at Boulder 96 Gary Sandefur, Director, American Indian Studies Program, Institute for Research on Poverty, University of Wisconsin at Madison 99 Nancy Denton, Professor of Sociology, State University of New York at Albany; coauthor of American Apartheid: Segregation and the Making of the Underclass (forthcoming) 101 Panel Five. Multiculturalism Mary Futrell, Senior Consultant for the Quality Education for Minorities Network . 114 Robert Royal, Vice President and Fellow, Ethics & Public Policy Center 117 Joan Scott, Professor of Social Science, Institute for Advanced Studies 120 Roger Wilkins, Professor of History, George Mason University 123 Mike Anderson, Executive Director, National Congress of American Indians 125 Panel Six. Socioeconomic Factors, Part 1 Larry Lindsey, Governor, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve 139 Charles Murray, Bradley Fellow, American Enterprise Institute 141 Paul Peterson, Professor of Government, Harvard University 144 Panel Seven. Socioeconomic Factors, Part 2 Timothy Bates, Chair, Department of Urban Policy Analysis, New School for Social Research 160 Catherine Bessant, Senior Vice President for Community Reinvestment, NationsBank Corp. 162 Allen Fishbein, General Counsel, Center for Community Change 164 Billy Tidwell, Director of Research, National Urban League 166 Panel Eight. Civil Rights Ira Glasser, Executive Director, American Civil Liberties Union 185 Karen Narasaki, Washington Representative, Japanese American Citizens League . 188 Milton Morris, Vice President for Research, Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies 190 Louis Nunez, President, National Puerto Rican Coalition 192 Stanley Sue, M.D., Professor of Psychology, University of California at Los Angeles 194 Executive Summary

IntroductionThe Genesis of the RacialTensions Project In February 1991 the U.S. Commission on The Commission convened a task force com- Civil Rights (the "Commission") voted to embark prised of Commissioner Redenbaugh as its chair, upon a long-term investigation into the factors current Commission Chairperson, Mary Frances contributing to increased racial and ethnic ten- Berry, Commissioner Carl Anderson, and former sions throughout the United States. Discouraged Commissioner Esther Gonzalez-Arroyo Buckley. by the apparent escalation of racial tensions, The task force was supported by members of the particularly in the Nation's urban areas, Com- Commission's executive staff throughout its 2- missioner Blandina Cardenas Ramirez urged month tenure. that the Commission exert its leadership in The task force recommended that the Com- bringing the issue to the attention of the Presi- mission move forward with the proposed series dent, the Congress, and the American people in of hearings,the purpose of which would be to November 1990.1 Numerous reports from many examine, explore, and make factual findings con- of the Commission's State Advisory Committees cerning the perceived resurgence of racial ten- throughout the United States confirmed that ra- sions in America's communities. cial and ethnic tensions were rising in virtually Thereafter, the Commissioners agreed on the every one of this nation's critical institutions. following urban sites to examine the issue of in- On February 2,1991, Commissioner Carl creased racial and ethnic tensions: Chicago, Los Anderson introduced a formal motion, predi- Angeles, New York City, and Miami. In addition, cated on the Commission's unanimous agree- the Commission later made plans to evaluate ment, that addressing racial tensions in Amer- manifestations of the problem in a rural setting ica's cities be the overarching thematic approach at a hearing site in the lower Mississippi Delta. for the Commission's work over the following 3 Despite careful planning and definition of the to 5 years.Subsequently, on September 13, scope of the project, the Commission acknowl- 1991, on a motion by Commissioner Russell edged that much work was needed still to ensure Redenbaugh, the Commission refined its direc- the substantive integrity of its investigation. To tion and agreed to conduct a series of hearings in assist in this process, the Commissioners de- selected cities around the country focusing on cided to conduct a "National Perspectives" hear- education, housing, crime, police-community re- ing, in which the Commission would invite testi- lations, employment and entrepreneurship op- mony from a variety of the Nation's foremost portunities, the impact of governmental and4fis- researchers, authors, experts, and commentators cal budget policies, and the role of the media. on issues affecting the state of racial and ethnic

1 Remarks of Hon. Blandina Cardenas Ramirez, former Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Commission Meeting, Wash- ington, D.C., Nov. 9, 1990, transcript, p. 74.

2 Remarks of Hon. Arthur A. Fletcher, former Chairperson, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Hearing before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Washington, D.C., May 21, 1992, p. 21 (hereafter cited as National Perspectives Hearing).

3 Remarks of Hon. Carl Anderson, Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, USCCR Annual Planning Retreat, Washington, D.C., Feb. 2, 1991, p. 33.

4 Ibid.

5 Hon. Russell G. Redenbaugh, Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Commission Meeting, Washington, D.C., Nov. 15, 1991, p. 33 (hereafter cited as Nov. 15,1991, Commission Meeting).

6 Ibid.

1 relations. Thus, following extensive deliberation ceptance of and among its diverse racial and eth- and research by the Commissioners and Com- nic groups. mission staff, the Commission convened a hear- As an additional note, while securing informa- ing at the Office of Personnel Management audi- tion is the major purpose of any U.S. Commis- torium in Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992.7 sion on Civil Rights hearing, the Commission is The following is a summary of key points hopeful that the hearings in this series will have made by witnesses at the National Perspectives the collateral effect of stimulating open dis- Hearing,including recommendations for fur- course and increased understanding of civil ther areas of inquiry by the Commission during rights problems, thus encouraging the correction the course of the racial and ethnic tensions proj- of extant injustices. This summary is not in- ect. Witnesses are identified in the summary tended to be a substitute for the important testi- based upon their professional affiliations at the mony contained in the attached hearing tran- time of the hearing. Emerging from their testi- script. mony is a picture of a nation that continues to struggle with the longstanding challenge of cul- Hon. Mary Frances Berry tivating an unqualified mutual tolerance and ac- Chairperson

7 Refers to hearing conducted by the Commission in Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992. The hearing was titled, Racial and Ethnic Ten- sions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination ,A National Perspective.

8 ProfesSional identification of the witnesses is based upon their affiliations at the time of the hearing. Testimony was received through eight panels as follows: Panel One. Overview Panel: Racial and Ethnic TensionsPart I: Ellis Cose, editorial page editor, New York Daily News, author of A Nation of Strangers: Prejudice, Politics, and the Populating of America (New York: William Morrow & Co., 1992); Joe Feagin, professor of sociology, University of Honda at Gainesville, author of The Bubbling Cauldron: Racial and Eth- nic Issues in U.S. Cities (in preparation with M.P. Smith); Andrew Hacker, professor of political science, Queens College, City Univer- sity of New York, author of Two Nations: Black and White, Separate, Hostile, Unequal (New York: Maxwell Macmillan International 1992); Arthur Kropp, president, People for the American Way, author of Democracy's Next Generation II: A Study of American Youth on Race (People for the American Way, 1992); Manning Marable, professor of political science, history and sociology. Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race in America, University of Colorado at Boulder, author of The Crisis of Color and Democracy (Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press, 1992 ); and Clarence Page, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist, Chicago Tribune. Panel Two. Overview Panel II: Racial and Ethnic TensionsPart II: Arthur Hemming, chairman, Citizens Commission for Civil Rights and National Ed- ucation Commission; Edward A. Hailes, Jr., counsel to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP); Charles Kamasaki, vice. president, Office of Research, Advocacy, and Legislation. National Council of LaRaza; John Kromkowski, president, National Ceuter for Urban Ethnic Affairs; Daphne Kwok, executive director, Organization of Chinese Americans, Inc.; and Albert Mokhiber, president, American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. Panel Three. Hate Incidents: Howard Ehrlich, director of research, National Institute Against Prejudice and Violence; Grace Flores Hughes, Director, Community Relations Service (CRS), U.S. Department of Justice; Jess Hordes, Washington director, Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith; Danny Welch, director, Klanwatch; and Harper Wilson, Section Chief, Uniform Crime Reports Section, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Panel Four. Changing Demographics: William O'Hare, director of population and policy research, University of Louisville; Evelyn Hu-Dehan, director, Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race in America, University of Colorado; Gary Sandefur, director, American Indian Studies Program, Institute for Research on Poverty, University of Wisconsin at Madison; and Nancy Denton, professor of sociology, State University of New York at Albany, coauthor of American Apartheid: Segregation and the Making of the Underclass (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1993). Panel Five. Multiculturalism: Mary Futrell, senior consultant. Quality Education for Minori- ties Network; Robert Royal, vice president and fellow, Ethics & Public Policy Center, Joan Scott, professor of social science. Institute for Advanced Studies; Roger Wilkins, professor of history, George Mason University; and Mike Anderson, executive director, National Congress of American Indians. Panel Six. Socioeconomic FactorsPart 1: Larry Lindsey, governor, Board of Governors of the Fed- eral Reserve; Charles Murray. Bradley Fellow, American Enterprise Institute; and Paul Peterson, professor of government, Harvard University. Panel Seven. Socioeconomic FactorsPart 2: Timothy Bates. chair, Department of Urban Policy Analysis, New School for Social Research; Catherine Bessant, senior vice president for community reinvestment, NationsBank Corp.; Allen Fishbein, general counsel, Center for Community Change; and Billy Tidwell, director of research, National Urban League. Panel Eight. Civil Rights: Ira Glasser, executive director. American Civil Liberties Union; Karen Narasaki, Washington representative, Japanese American Citi- zens League; Milton Morris, vice president for research, Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies; Louis Nunez, president. Na- tional Puerto Rican Coalition: and Stanley Sue. M.D., professor of psychology, University of California at Los Angeles.

2 Summary of Testimony Following 2 days of testimony, five key themes Nation's changing demographics and the effect emerged from the U.S. Commission on Civil of these changes on racial and ethnic tensions is Rights' (the "Commission") Racial and Ethnic then summarized. The summary next turns to Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, In- the testimony depicting the unfortunate circum- equality, and DiscriminationA National Per- stance of national denial of racial and ethnic ten- spectivehearing (the"National Perspectives sions. Finally, the summary presents a brief Hearing") as primary causes of persistent, and overview of the testimony relating the primary in some cases, increased racial and ethnic ten- causes that are endemic to persistent racial and sions: (i) crisis in leadership; (ii) media portray- ethnic tensions throughout the Nation. als of existing tensions; (iii) deficiencies in the educational system; (iv) disparities in the crimi- Evidence of Increasing Tensions: nal justice system, and (v) growing economic in- Ethnoviolence and Bias Crimes equality. In addition to these themes, many wit- The Commission heard testimony th'at the nesses testified that the nature of racial and New York City Police Department tallied 525 ethnic tensions has itself transformed as a result bias-related incidents occurring in the city dur- of the rapid demographic reconstitution of Amer- ing 1991, with predictions that a record would be icansociety. These witnesses indicated that, set in 1992.Ellis Cose, author of the recentl along with the changing face of America, the published The Rage of the Privileged Class, need has emerged to include and address the testified that New York City is not isolated in concerns of newer population groups in the civil escalating incidents of bias crimes, as New Jer- rights agenda. Although most witnesses were sey State Police tabulated 976 biasoffenses able to pinpoint specific causes of racial and eth- within the State in 1991, as compared with 824 nic tensions, many testified that, overall, the in 1990.11 According to Cose, 1991 marked the Nation is in a state of denial, failing either to fourth consecutive year that New Jersey re- acknowledge or to address the issue comprehen- ported an increase of bias crimes. 12 California sively. experienced a rise in 1992 also, with a statewide This summary begins with a synopsis of em- commission concluding that hate crimeswere pirical data offered by various witnesses in sup- at an all-timehigh.14 port of the perception that racial and ethnic tensions are on the rise. Witness testimony on the

9 Ellis Cose, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992, p. 23 (hereafter cited as NationalPerspectives Hearing).

10 See The Rage of a Privileged Class: Why are middle-class blacks angry? Why should America care?, New York: HarperCollins Pub- lishers, 1993. Cose is also the author of A Nation of Strangers: Prejudice, Politics, and the Population of America, New York:William Morrow & Co., 1992.

11 Cose Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 23.

12 Ibid.

13 The Hate Crimes Statistics Act requires the Attorney General to compile statistics on crimes manifesting "evidence of prejudicebased on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, including where appropriate the crimesof murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, aggravated assault, simple assault, intimidation, arson and destruction, damage or vandalism of property." Hate CrimesStatis- tics Act, P.L. 101-275.104 Stat 140 (codified 28 U.S.C. § 534 n (1992)). In other words, "hate crimes are not separate, distinct crimes. but rather, traditional offenses that are motivated by the offenders' bias." See also Harper Wilson, Section Chief, UniformCrime Re- ports Section. U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, testimony, Hearing Before theUSCCR. Washington. D.C.. May 21-22,1992, p. 78.

14 Cose Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 24.

3 Grace Flores Hughes, former Director of the increase over 1990 figures.22 Similarly, Karen Community Relations Service of the U.S. De- Narasaki, of the Japanese American Citizens partment of Justice (CRS), testified that in 1991 League, testified that increased incidents of CRS filed 4,290 alerts of potential community- anti-Asianviolence occurred inthefirst 4 wide racialconflicts,nationwide.15 Of these months of 1992,23 and Albert Mohkiber of the alerts, 287 involved the perception that a hate American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee crime or incident had occurred, or was about to 16 testified ab2o4ut increased attacks against Arab occur. The number of alerts issued by CRS Americans. showed a steady increase from 1989 (176) to Testimony was inconclusive on whether the 1990 c192), culminating in a 3-year high in 1991 increasing number of reports actually reflects an (287). 7 acceleration in the occurrence of hate crimes, or Statistics did not clearly indicate whether the whether the number of such occurrences has re- largest category of such offenses was racial or mained constant, while the act of reporting hate ethnic in nature. Mr. Cose testified that Minne- crimes has simply become more prevalent. In ad- sota's Department of Public Safety reported that dition, contradictory testimony was offered as to bias crime had increased 38 percent in 1991, the actual meaning of increased reports of hate with racial incidents accounting for 333 of the crimes in the context of overall racial tensions. total of 425 reports.18 Moreover, blacks were tar- Witnesses did agree, however, that hate crime geted in 37 percentie' all reported ,bias crimes laws have proven useful for law enforcemeig nationally that year. agencies seeking to respond to this problem. The Anti-Defamation League of B'Nai B'rith According to Mr. Hordes, not only do statistics (ADL) recorded an upsurge in 2ihate incidents and on hate crimes equip our leaders at the Federal, hate crimes in recent years.According to Jess State, and local levels with essential information Hordes, Washington director of the ADL, begin- to allocate their resources appropriately, but the ning in 1987, the ADL documented a steady rise collection of such data also educates law enforce- in the number of reported hate incidents.In ment officers on how to identify and respond to the ADL's 1991 audit of anti-Semitic incidents, such crimes most effectively. 1,879 separate incidents of vandalism, violence, Figures provided by witnesses appear to rep- or harassment were reportedan 11 percent resent only the tip of the iceberg, however, since

15 Grace Flores Hughes, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 73.

16 Ibid.

17 Ibid., p. 74.

18 Cose Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 24.

19 Ibid., p. 23.

20 Jess Hordes, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington. D.C., May 21-22, 1992, pp. 75-76.

21 Ibid., p. 75.

22 Ibid., p. 75

23 Karen Narasaki, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 191.

24 Albert Mohkiber, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22;1992, pp. 59-61.

25 Harper Wilson, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C.. May 21-22, 1992, pp. 78-79; Danny Welch, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 77; and Hordes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 75-76.

26 Hordes Testimony, National Perspective Hearing, p. 76.

4 10 unreported.27 Despite in- example, in a national survey conductedby the most hate crimes go Violence, creased reports of ethnoviolent incidentsby the National Institute of Prejudice and law enforcement community and civilrights or- persons victimized atwork were determined less nevertheless,esti- likely to report an incident they believed was ganizations, one witness, believed mated that three-quarters of allethnoviolent in- motivated by prejudice than one the2y cidents are never reported to anypublic agency was motivated for someother reason. schoolsor work The Commission also heard testimonythat or designatedofficialsin nonreporting/underreporting was a particular places.Howard Ehrlich, Director of Research Against Prejudice and problem with school-age children. MaryFutrell at the National Institute Minorities Network, Violence, testified that practically no onereports of the Quality Education for nonreporting fiA- noted that in 1992, the People for theAmerican incidents of ethnoviolence, and with the racial ures range from 80 to90 percent of all victims. Way conducted a study dealing that victims attitudes of young people from 15 to24 years The Commission heard testimony According to Ms. Futrell, otherstudies of bias-related incidents maybe more likely to old. public neighbor- have echoed the findings of thePeople for the report episodes that occur in shocking, in hood settings, as compared toschools, work American Way report. Especially Mr. Ehrlich her view, was a finding thatapproximately 60 to places, or other closed institutions. related that explained that nonreporting inthese settings is 70 percent of students interviewed includ- they had, at one time or another,been the victim attributable to a complex set of reasons, knew of some- ing the victim's denial of thesignificance of the of a racial or an ethnic incident or ethnoviolent incident, the belief thatauthorities one who had been sovictimized.34 of retaliation or Ms. Futrell suggested duringher testimony will be unresponsive, and fear beevidenceof other detrimental consequencesof reporting. For thatunderreporting may

USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992, p.71; Wilson Testimony, National Per- 27 Howard Ehrlich, testimony, Hearing Before the spective Hearing, p. 79. which unlike hate crimes, are not classi- The term "ethnoviolence" denotes those eventsthat are violent expressions of prejudice, but, 28 Prejudice and Violence, fied as crimes. According to Howard Ehrlich,director of research for the National Institute Against it is not true that prejudice, as a particularform of an attitude, is pri- "While it is true that all attitudes have an emotional component, supremacists pro - [and] not all prejudice involves strong emotions. ... [T]he white marily based on the emotional response of hatred attacking black newcomers to the ducing racist propaganda may be acting in acalculated and nonemotional way. The white homeowner acting in conformity with group neighborhood may be acting out of fear, not hatred,and the teenagers assaulting a gay man may be norms."

Ehrlich Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p.71.

29 Ibid.

30 Ibid., p. 72.

31 Ibid.

32 Ibid., p. 73. Youth on Race, People for the American Way,1992. People for the American 33 Democracy's Next Generation II: A Study of American Associates to conduct the study, which began with anational survey and followed up with Way commissioned Peter D. Hart Research USCCR, Washington, D.C., May focus groups and 78 one-on-one interviews. ArthurJ. Kropp, written testimony, Hearing Before the 21-22,1992, pp. 29-30. USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992, p. 116.See Mary Hatwood Futrell, senior 34 Mary Futrell, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington. D.C., May 21-22, consultant, Quality Education for MinoritiesNetwork, written testimony, Hearing Before the 1992, pp. 115-18.

11 increased tolerance for racial bigotry. Ms.Futrell ical science and history at the University testified that in a survey predating the People of Col- orado at Boulder, testified that racialviolence for the American Way study, studentswere and acts of racial intimidation rangedfrom the asked what they would do if theycame upon a arson of a black fraternity house at the Univer- racial incident in progress. Approximately 60 sity of Mississippi, to the harassment ofan Afri- percent of students responding said that they can American cadet at the Citadel in South Car- would not report the incident to an adult author- olina by white cadets wearing Ku KluxKlan ity, while 45 percent said that they wouldproba- apparel.41 In addition,the ADL's 1991 audit in- bly join in. According to Ms. Futrell, these stud- cluded record totals for anti-Semiticarsons, ies highlight the prevalenc:8 of racial and ethnic bombings, and cemetery desecrations, and the stereotypes in this country. highest number of anti-Semitic incidentsever Underreporting aside, school populationsare recorded in 1 year on American college 42 cam- most representative of the pluralism and diver- puses.Ms. Flores Hughes also confirmed that sity of American society. They mirrormany of during her tenure as Director of the CRS,a the problems experienced in the adult world, number of reported incidentscame from college and have begun to experiencA escalating racial campuses. Ms. Hughes speculated that, possibly and ethnic tensions as well.Reports of hate "they were there all along butno one reported crimes and ethnoviolence involving the Nation's them, but they're reporting themnow, and youth have increased dramatically, and accord- they're very, very serious incidents." ing to Mr. Ehrlich, case studies conductedin In response to the view that the majorityof Baltimore and Richmond by the National Urban hate crimes and incidents of ethnoviolenceare League, indicated that 25 percent ofarea college unreported, witnesses offered differing opinions students were victimized at leastonce during on the need for further national data collection the course of an academic year.38 Mr. Ehrlich efforts. Mr. Wilson and Ms. Flores Hughesnev- further estimated that the modal figure forcase ertheless stated that participation by lawen- studies on college campuses 39 was, in fact, 25 per- forcement agencies mustgrow considerably be- cent. fore valid nationwide assessments of thehate In 1989 the American Councilon Education crime problem can be made.Danny Welch, di- reported incidents involving racial violenceand rector of Klanwatch, testified that at the time of harassment of minorities at 174 collegecam- the hearing, participation by States in collection puses.40 Dr. Manning Marable, professor of polit- efforts was voluntary. He reported that in1991

35 Ibid.

36 Ibid.

37 Futrell Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 116. 38 Ehrlich Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 72,86. 39 Ibid., p. 72. See generally Kropp Testimony, National PerspectivesHearing, pp. 29-30; Manning Marable testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.0., May 21-22, pp. 31-32; Hordes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 75-76; and Welch Testi- mony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 76-78.

40 Marable Testimony. National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 31-32. 41 Ibid., p. 32.

42 Hordes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 76.

43 Flores Hughes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 88. 44 Wilson Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 79; Flores Hughes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 73-75.

6 12 only 11 States had provided data to theFBI.45 1990, and the Hispanic population increased by He further testified that without mandatory par- more than 50 percent over the same time span. ticipation by States, accurate data will not be In contrast, however, the African American pop- available to ide4ptify trends or to develop respon- ulation5Frew by only 12 percent over this same sive programs. period.' Mr. Ehrlich, however, suggested that there is Immigration has historical) b, been a source of no need for additional research, unlessthe pur- tension in American society.For example, in pose is to "convince people whoperhaps no the first decade of this century when nearly 9 amount of research will ever convince."Accord- million newcomers journeyed to the United ing to Mr. Ehrlich, ethnoviolence and bias crime States, the number of Americans who were im- are epidemic. He further suggestedthat "if we migrants was higher than any the Government had a disease entity that w[asl hitting this pro- had tabulated since it first started tracking sta- portion of the population, the Surgeon General tistics in 1820.Immigration has once again of the United States would have called it a clear climbed to unprecedented levels. For the first cut disaster."48 Mr. Hordes reported that, at the time since the turn of the century, the United time of the hearing, over 30 States had enacted States, in 1989, welcomed more than 1 million hates crimes laws based on or similar to the immigrants in a single year.In 1990 the im- ADL's mode1.49 migration record was set ten over 1.5 million entered the United States.Dr. O'Hare testified Changing Demographics that in the 1980s roughly 75 percent of the Asian Several witnesses noted that the United and Pacific Islander growth and 50 percent 9; States is rapidly becoming more diverse. Dr. the Hispanic growth was due to immigration. William O'Hare, director of population and pol- Moreover, almost a sixth of African. American icy research at the University of Louisville, testi- population growth during the 1980s was dv to fied that the "new minorities,"Asian Ameri- immigration from Africa and the Caribbean. cans, Pacific Islanders, and Hispanic groups are These changes have occasioned the emergence growing at a brisk pace. The number of Asian of unique problems for new populations or those Americans more than doubled between 1980 and associated with them. Daphne Kwok, executive

45 Welch Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 77.

46 Ibid., p. 84.

47 Ehrlich Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 85.

48 Ibid.

49 Hordes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 75.

50 William O'Hare, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 95.

51 Ibid., p. 96.

52 Ibid.

53 Cose Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 24, 46-47.

54 Ibid., p. 24.

55 Ibid.

56 Ibid.

57 O'Hare Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 96.

58 Ibid.

13 director of the Organization of Chinese Ameri- problems are experienced also by Native Ameri- cans, testified that although Asian Americans cans. "So it's really not appropriate to think of have only recently been able to be naturalized, these issues as things that only affect the Latino the immigration history of Asians is largely un- or black population residing in larger metropoli- known to the American population at large. Be- tan areas." cause of their "readily identifiable. ..physical Witness testimony confirmed that future dia- characteristics," however, Asian-Americans con- logues must include new groups who are likely front a unique set of circumstances that stimu- to be affected by racial conflict in both tradi- lateracialtension. Ms. Kwok stated that tional and unique ways. Moreover, the effect of "Asian Americans are subject not only to xeno- racial tensions on all ethnic groups, whetherre- phobia based on... color ...and...different cent immigrants or long-term citizens, must be appearance, but . . . also...to the negative subject to debate. This new dialogue will require implications of some of our success."Louis strong new leadership equipped with the cour- Nunez, president of the National Puerto Rican age not only to address the issue of racial and Coalition, stated that "wedan no longer talk as ifethnic tensions, but to implement an agenda there were one minority." that will reflect and incorporate the diversity of As a result of America's rapidly changing de- our society. mographics, most witnesses agreed that a fresh, new paradigm is needed in which to address the National Denial Concerning the State issue of racial and ethnic tensions.For exam- of Racial/Ethnic Relations ple, Charles Kamasaki, vice president of the of- Overall, several witnesses agreed that this fice of research, advocacy, and legislation for the country is in a state of denial about the existence National Council of La Raza, testified that "the traditional civil rights and antipoverty agendas and causes of, and consequently, the needed have failed to adequately or equitably serve the solutions to racial and ethnic tensions. Gross in- Hispanic community." stitutionalized racial injustice is an issue that Gary Sandefur, director the country has %ever faced fully, or committed of the American Indian Studies Program at the itself to resolve. Indeed, at crucial points, University of Wisconsin at Madison, noted thatAmerican society has retreated from addressing the Native American population, which is not the critical subject of race, and learned to toler- largely influenced by immigration, grew approxi- ate, rather than to eradicate racial inequality. mately 38 percent during the 1980s.He further suggested that some traditional civil rights Witnesses asserted varied reasons for the continued avoidance of racial and ethnic tensions.

59 Daphne Kwok. testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22.1992,p. 57. 60 Ibid.

61 Louis Nunez, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,p. 194.

62 Sec generally Charles Murray, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,pp. 142-44: Paul Peterson, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,pp. 145-46.

63 Charles Kamasaki, testimony. Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,p. 53.

64 Gary Sandefur, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,p. 100. 65 Ibid., p. 101.

66 Milton Morris, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,p. 191.

67 Ira Glasser, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992,p. 186. 68 Ibid.

8 14 Clarence Page, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist cansincluding subtle and blatant opinions for the Chicago Tribune, testified that the defini- acts of discriminationis rarely addressed.Ac- tion of "racist" in the minds of most peoele is not cording to Professor Andrew Hacker, author of the same as the dictionary definition.9 Based 7'wo Nations: Black and White, Separate; Hos- upon his discussions at a suburban highschool tile, and Unequal,75 there exist endless studies in a progressive neighborhood in Chicago, Mr. on blacks as a racial group, but hardly a book on Page maintained that some people believe that the majority racial group in this country.Dr. "racism" is simply defined as a belief that one Hacker testified that in a "harsh, highly compet- race is superior to another, and that, therefore, itive society, whiteness brings status, security, anybody may be racist.According to Mr. Page, superiority," and a feeling that "no matter what however, a significant number of African Ameri- can happen to you ...if you're still white, well cans adhere to the view that blacks cannotbe you may not get to the top, youcanfall a bit, but racist because they are an oppressed group. you can fall only just so far."Dr. Hacker sug- Under this view, Mr. Page indicated, that op- gested that the Commission focus on all 200 mil- pression and the ability Ao oppress is intrinsic to lion whites in the United States as a racial the definition of racism.Conversely, Ellis Cose group "as a means of gettingwhiteness to the maintained that racism not only includes people surface," and there%squarely confronting the who hate people of color, but also people who issue of white racism. profess to love people of color, but believe .that they are intellectually inferior to whites.Thus, Underlying Causes of Increased the lack of consensus on the meaning of the term Tensions may explain, in part, the country's difficulty as a nation iN engaging in a meaningful dialogue on Crisis of Leadership racism. A number of witnesses commented that un- Others testified that when the issue of racial derscoring the problem of increasedracial and and ethnic tensions is broached, however, "white ethnic tensions is a crisis of leadership. One racism," or the entrenched prejudices and ste- witness stated that what is and has been most reotypes of minorities held by white Ameri- lacking in both addressing and attacking the

69 Clarence Page, testimony,Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C.,May 21-22, 1992, p. 37.

70 Ibid.

71 Ibid.

72 Cose Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 37.

73 PageTestimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 37. Hearing Be- 74 Joe Feagin, testimony,Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C.May 21-22, 1992, pp. 25-27; Hacker, testimony, fore the USCCR,Washington,D.C.,May 21-22, 1992, p. 28.

75 Andrew Hacker,Two Nations: Black and White, Separate, Hostile, and Unequal (NewYork: Maxwell Macmillan International, 1992).

76 HackerTestimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 28.

77 Ibid.

78 Ibid. p. 35; O'Hare 79 See generallyCose Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 25; Page Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing, Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 108; Wilkins Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 124-26: and Morris Testi- mony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 193.

9 15 issue of race relations over the past several rate community, but that, compared to the politi- years is leadership committed to a truly egalitar- cal community, there is more of it. ian society.Instead, according to Milton Mor- The Commission heard testimony that more ris, vice president for research at the Joint Cen- high level leadership is needed to address the ter for Political and Economic Studies, it has issue of racial and ethnic tensions. Clarence been politically expedient to be divisive and to Page noted that, in the past, the military pro- focus on those segments of the population that vided a model of effective reduction in discrimi- represent an attractive political majority.Un- nation. According to Page, when prominent lead- fortunately, however, he added, in doing so, we ers said, "'Okay, no more discrimination, you have abandoned precious and vital elements of saw action.' You saw real action." our society that symbolize America as a diverse, yet united society. Media Portrayals of Existing Tensions Testimony varied on the types and degrees of Witnesses generally agreed that media treat- leadership that are needed. Dr. O'Hare, for ex- ment of existing racial and ethnic strife often ample, suggested that civil rights leaders and all serves to provoke racial and ethnic tensions, levels of government must forthrightly oppose and, in some cases, exacerbates preexisting ten- all forms of discrimination, because the absence sions.According to Arthur Kropp, president of of strong official reaction has opened the door for People for the American Way, next to parental "all kinds of bigots and mean-spirited people." guidance, the media may have the greatest in- Ira Glasser, executive director of the American fluence in shaping public pereseptions, particu- Civil Liberties Union, suggested that the most larly among our young people.Unfortunately, serious void exists in the political community. however, the media often fail to deal with the Mr. Glasser testified that the corporate commu- issue of racial and ethnic tensions responsibly, nity is often more responsive to civil rights is- and the images that are repeatedly9gresented to sues than the political community.84 He attrib- our children generally are negative. uted this responsiveness to what he described as Witnesses testified that in addition to media an economic "self-interest in equality." Mr. distortions of and emphasis on racial conflict, its Glasser added, however, that there is neither portrayal of minorities may contribute to ten- sufficient nor significant leadership in the corpo- sions as well. Clarence Page, editorial board

80 Morris Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 193.

81 Ibid.

82 Ibid.

83 O'Hare Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 108.

84 Glasser Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 203-04.

85 Ibid., p. 203.

86 Ibid.

87 Page Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 35 (emphasis added).

88 See generallyKropp Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 30; Page Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 34; Timothy Bates, testimony,Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C.,May 21-22, 1992, p. 162; Stanley Sue, testimony,Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May21-22, 1992, p. 196; Narasaki Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 198. 89 KruppTestimony, National Perspectives Hearing.p. 30.

90 Ibid.

10 16 member of the Chicago Tribune, testified that many articles in the mass media targeted black although African Americans have come a long Americans, to ask how theythe middle class, way in many professions, the media project two the rioter, the resident, the black politician archetypeseither Willie Horton or Bill Cosby, thought, felt, and reacted.95 In turn, he stated, thus failing to acknowledge the vast diversi% of white leaders spoke out on the need for black the African American community in between. morality, black hope, and community rebuild Witnesses suggested that, in large part, the ing.96 Despite expansive dialogue, Dr. Feagin popular media sets the agenda for addressing emphasized the absence of a single article on the racial and ethnic tensions. In so doing, they role of white racism in creating the foundation often miss key harms urgently in need of re- for racial conflict in the United States. dress. For example, Dr. Stanley Sue, professor of Deficiencies in the Educational System psychology at the University of California, Los Most witnesses agreed that education is one Angeles, testified that the media portrayed the of the most effective tools in combating racial events surrounding the 1992 riots in Los Angeles and ethnic tensions. Further, witnesses sug- following the verdict in the first Rodney King gested that the educational environment was trial as largely a black-white affair.In reality, particularly fitting because of the considerable however, Dr. Sue testified that Korean Ameri- diversity of the Nation's student population. In- cans suffered half of all of the property damage creasingly higher percentages of the more than that occurred in Los Angles, a fact that the 47 million students in the U.S. attending more media largely overlooked.Similar sentiments than 100,000 elementary and secondary schools were expressed to the Commission byKaren and 3,000+ colleges and universities come from Narasaki, of the Japanese American Citizens racial and ethnic minority backgrounds.Based League, who testified that the Asian community on estimates by Harold Hodgkinson ofthe Insti- was not fully included in much of thedialogue tute for Educational Leadership,Mary Futrell that took place following the riots. She attrib- testified that by the year 2000, more than 30 uted the exclusion to the media's portrayal of the percent of all school-age children in this country problenlias one essentially involving blacks and will represent language and racial minority whites. groups. More than 50 percent of these school-age One witness suggested that the media oftenchildren will come from families living at or serve to suppress needed dialogue on racial is- below the poverty level. sues. Joe Feagin, graduate professor of sociology Ms. Futrell testified further that school-age at the University of Florida at Gainesville, testi- children are experiencing increased tensions fied that following the 1992 riots in Los Angeles,

91 PageTestimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p.34.

92 Sue Testimony, NationalPerspectives Hearing,p. 196.

93 Ibid.

94 Narasaki Testimony, NationalPerspectives Hearing,p. 198.

95 Feagin Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 25

96' Ibid.

97 Ibid.

98 Futrell Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 115.

99 Ibid.

100 Ibid.

17 that are expressed not only through physical and For example, Ms. Futrell testified that the verbal abuse, but throughisocial, economic, and term "multiculturalism" refers not only to race political isolation as well.As a prime example, or ethnicity, but to racial, ethnic, political, reli- Ms. Futrell explained that the structure of the gious, economic, class, geographic, and gender- educational system, particularly, the academic based characteristics that define the American curriculum, often isolates children based on non- people. Thus, she explained that the term relevant factors and is determinative of future "multicultural education" means education that life choices.102 She told the Commission that values pluralism and cultural diversity and en- there is ample evidence to demonstrate that hances equal opportunitX within schools, and, throughout the United States, the structure and thus, within our society. Joan Scott, professor operation of the educational system is %basic of social science, Institute for Advanced Studies, determinant of a student's later options. She explained that multiculturalism usually means testified further that if a student is not in the devoting attention in our teaching to the histori- gifted and talented or academic excellence pro- cal experiences of racial and ethnic differences in gramswhich minority students rarely are American history, and to the fundamentally dif- he/she often will not receive the background nec- ferent perspectives and points of view embodied essary to prepare for college. She clarified by these experiences. that the student may still be able to gain admis- Dr. Scott testified further that, in a way, the sion into college, but that it is more difficult be- debate on multiculturalism is also a debate cause admission is jampolitical process, as well as about race; it is about whether minority groups, an educational one. particularly African Americans, will be allowed One witness described the raging debates of to articulate their perspective on American his- the last few years about multiculturalism in the tory.11On the other hand, Robert Royal, vice school and university curriculum as an expres- president and fellow at the Ethics and Public sion of ethnic, and especially racial, tensions in Policy Center, testified that some of what is this country.106Nevertheless, much like the de- passing under the banner of multiculturalism is bate over a common understanding of the term simply bad history, in that it falsifies the record "racism," the Commission heard testimony sug- and is misused in current controversies. gesting that there is a good deal of misunder- In the face of increasing diversity among stu- standing about what multicultural education is dent populations,witnesses describedresis- intended to accomplish. tance, or a "backlash" against multicultural education. For example, Evelyn Hu-DeHart, director

101 Ibid., pp. 115, 117.

102 Ibid., pp. 116-17.

103 Ibid., pp. 130-31.

104Ibid., p. 131.

105 Ibid.

106 Joan Scott, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.0., May 21-22, 1992, p. 121.

107 Futrell Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 117.

108 Ibid.

109 Scott Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 121.

110Scott Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 134.

111 Robert Royal, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 120.

12 18 of the Center for the Study of Ethnicity and duct.116 Mr. Hailes contended that the verdict in Race, testified that some have characterized the first trial against the LAPD officers accused multiculturalism as "1960s radicals imposing of beating Mr. King was yet another reminder to politically correct views" on students. Dr. Hu- African Americans that being black in this coun- De Hart testified that part of multicultural edu- try often means living under a different set of cation is designed to open doors and to make rules, and that the criminal justice system, like learning more accessible to people of color. Ex- other institutions, can be perverted on the basis amples are various fellowships and scholarship of race. opportunities developed in the context of affir- According to Ira Glasser, this country is re- mative action. Despite the proven effectiveness sponding to a number of problems by saturating of these initiatives, Dr. Hu-DeHart opined that its prisons with black people. FBI statistics we are in danger of losing them as aresult of the indicate that 12 percent of drug users and deal- popular backlash. These contradictions must ers are black, 38 percent of drug arrests are be resolved and the Nation must decide whether black, and over half of prison inmates are it is truly committed to diversity. If so, that com- black. 119 Mr. Glasser commented: mitment must be reflected in the way we educate our children now and in thF4way we planfor [W]e have multiplied the number of prisoners in the new generations of Americans. last 25 years by five times, and most of it is drug related, and most of it is black. Some 25 percent of Disparities in the Criminal Justice System young, black men are under the jurisdictionof a crimi- A number of witnesses testified that most mi- nal justice agency now. Homicide is the leading cause norities believe that the justice system is irrepa- of death among young, black men. We want to know rably biased.'Edward A. Hailes, Jr., Washing- why so few go to Mlege? It is because they are dying ton Bureau counsel for the National Association and incarcerated. for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) testified that the video-taped beating of Rodney As a result Mr. Glasser implied, it is no sur- King by officers of the Los Angeles Police De- prise that minorities are so unwilling to trust partment has come to symbolize the very es- the criminal justice system. He concluded, sence of police brutality andofficial miscon- however, that, "[w]e have to take some collective

1992, p. 99. 112 Evelyn Hu-DeHan, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,

113 Ibid., p. 111.

114Ibid., p. 114. D.C., May 21-22, 1992, p. 51; Cose Testimony, 115See generally Edward Hailes, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR. Washington, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 5; Page Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p.35; and Glasser Testimony. National Perspec- tives Hearing, p. 189.

116 Hailes Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 51.

117 Ibid.

118 Glasser Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 189.

119 Ibid.

120Ibid.

121 Ibid.. pp. 188-89.

19 -responsibility...[because] [t]his is notblack racial and ethnic peace.'27 Milton Morrissum- problem. This is an American problem." marized this view succinctly: Finally, Clarence Page noted that police brutality tends to be the precipitating muse ofover There are no indications that, in this societyor else- 90 percent of modern urban riots. Moreover, where, racial harmony can coexist alongside poverty, he suggested that despite disillusionment with hopelessness and a continually deteriorating quality the justice system people sincerely want the of life... [W]hat we have created ... is an environ- system to work. Mr. Page stated that even in the ment in which there are not just tensions between the days following the Rodney King beating, the ab- dominant white society and ethnic minorities, but sence of an immediate reaction demonstrated have created the conditions for interethnic strife. initial faith in the justice system. People waited 14 months for justice to work, and only The fundamental message of the hearing tes- when they detected a breakdown in the system timony on continuing economic inequality and did they react. According to Ira Glasser, peo- poverty in the United States was the recognition ple rioted because of the failure of the justice that America's public policy has erred insepa- system occasioned by the verdict in the first trial rating civil rights from economic opportunity.' of the officers involved in the Rodney King beat- In enacting laws designed to secure basic polit- ing, which was emblematic and symptomatic of ical rights and to remove discriminatory ele- a pervasive, suffocating failure of equal justice ments from our society, this country has essen- that is woven into the fabric of all of their tially considered the job complete without fully lives.126 appreciating that economicopportunity is an integral part of civil rights.'Poverty is never Economic Inequality considered a civil rights issue.Ira Glasser tes- Without question, the erratic performance of tified, however, that this country must start the Nation's economy exacerbates racial and eth- thinking of it as such because it is a disastera nic tensions. The Commission repeatedly heard disaster for anyone born into and limited by pov- testimony that uniform distribution of economic erty, but also "a disaster of a different kind when opportunity is, in fact, an essential ingredient to poverty itself is not evenly distributed. Wheng correlates with race, that cannot be accident."

122 Ibid., p. 189.

123 Page Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 35.

124Ibid.

125 Ibid.

126 Glasser Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 189.

127See generally Morris Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing,p. 192; Bates Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 163; Fishbein Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 165767; Peterson Testimony, NationalPerspectives Hearing. pp. 145-46; and Tidwell Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, pp. 168-70. 128 Morris Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 192.

129 Ibid.

130 Ibid.

131 See Glasser Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 188.

132 Ibid.

14 20 Mr. Glasser described poverty as a "special prob- trial sector.138 While the industrial sector has lem" when three times as many black chiltn grown substantially in recent years, with this are born poor as compared to white children. growth many jobs have relocated to communities Because of the interrelationship of economic less accessible to minorities.138 In other words, opportunity and racial and ethnic tension, the the nature and location of high wage blue collar testimony projected a dim prognosis for racial positions have changed, and many minority and ethnic relationships for future generations. workers have been displaced in the process. For example, Paul Peterson, professor of govern- Moreover, the content of the industrial sector ment at Harvard University, testified that de- has also changed. Mr. Morris explained that spite more than 20 years since the passage of some of the heavy industry that previously em- significant civil rights legislation and the elec- ployed large segments of blue collar, workins6 tion of increased numbers of African Americans class people has permanently disappeared. to public office, fundamental economic and social Mr. Morris and Dr. Bates both continued to ex- conditions for many African Americans have not plain that gains in production efficiency have improved.13Dr. Peterson intimated that the drastically reduced demand for labor. Conse- "Short-term Band-aids and targeted programs quently, large numbers of people who would oth- aimed at specific groups or certain communi- erwise have been gainfully employed in an ear- ties," that were developed, in part, in response to lier phase in our economic experience are now the civil unrest of the 1960s, "will simply not unemployed. Unfortunately, the economy has work." In their place, Dr. Peterson recom- not produced viable alternativez for this seg- mended the structural overhaul of three major ment of the working population. institutions in American society: "our medical Of particular concern has beelthe change in services delivery system, our welfare system, the character of available jobs. According to and our educational system." Dr. Bates, not only are there fewer jobs in many The testimony of both Milton Morris and of the central cities, but the remaining jobs try Timothy Bates, chair of the Department of Ur- significantly less than those they replaced. As ban Policyl3Analysis at the New School for Social a result, instead of steady incrementalgains in a Research, was particularly troubling in its ac- factory environment, those who are employed count of the overall developments in the indus- are in marginal or service environmentsin

133Ibid.

134Paul Peterson, testimony, Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C., May 21-22,1992, p. 145.

135Ibid.

136Ibid. University in New York City. 137 At the time of the hearing, Dr. Bates was affiliated with the New School for Social Policy, New York Perspectives Hearing, p. 181. 138 See generally Morris Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 202; and Bates Testimony, National

139Ibid.

140 Ibid.

141 Ibid.

142 Ibid. and Wilkins Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 125.

143Bates Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 181.

144Ibid. and Morris Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing. p. 202.

15 21 which the wage structure movesvery slowly or means of enabling lower income Americans to not at all, causing the income gap to continueto improve their economic status.151 Nonetheless, widen.45 official policing of the Nation's fair lending laws According to Dr. Peterson, economic opportu- is, and has been, inadequate.152 Allen Fishbein, nities for the less well-educated have declined, general counsel for the Center for Community with average hourly earnings formen without a Change, testified that increased enforcement of high school education falling by one-third since civil rights laws aimed at creating economicop- the mid- 1970s.146 As wages declined, joblessness portunity and combating discrimination is criti- increased, and the percentage of nonwhite Amer- cal. Dr. Billy Tidwell, director of research for icans with neither a high school educationnor a the National Urban League, predicted thereare job soared from 10 to over 20 percent. Conse- likely to be continued intergroup conflicts and quently, the dearth of economic opportunities antagonisms until those barriers are eliminated, and the resulting deterioration in family lifepro- the economic pie is expanded, andmal equalop- duced a 50 percent increase in the sgverty rate portunity is provided for everyone. among children in the last 15 years. Witnesses testified that strong evidence con- According to Roger Wilkins, professor of his- tinues to suggest that racial factors influence the tory at the George Mason University, jobs are flow of credit in this country's cities. Testi- fundamental to maintaining healthy and thriv- mony of several witnesses indicated a notable ing families.149 Witnesses noted, however, that difference in acceptance rates for minority and increased competition for diminishing wage sus- nonminority mortgage applications. For exam- taining jobs has exacerbated racial and ethnic ple, Allen Fishbein testified that studies indicate tensions, with the collateral effect of imposing that "poor white applicants are more likely to be additional strain on the family structure. granted a mortgage loan than wealthy black ap- On a communitywide scale, one witness at- plicants."157 In addition, Mr. Fishbeintestified tested that access to credit is the lifeblood ofthat data shows that racial minorities as a neighborhoods, and one of the most important group, are underrepresented even as applicants

145 Morris Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 202.

146Peterson Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 145.

147 Ibid.

148 Ibid.

149 Wilkins Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 125.

150Ibid. and Peterson Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 145.

151Fishbein Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 166.

152 Ibid., pp. 165-67.

153Ibid.. p. 167.

154 Tidwell Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,pp. 184-85.

155 Fishbein Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 166;see alsoBessant, testimony,Hearing Before the USCCR, Washington, D.C.,pp. 173-74.

156 Lindsey Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 149; Fishbein Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 166; Bessant Testi- mony,National Perspectives Hearing, p.173.

157Fishbein Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 166.

16 22 for mortgage credit.158 The Federal Reserve that they raise the question of whether the mort- Board reported that only 90,000, or 4.5 percent, gage loan 9groval process is infected with dis- of the nearly 2 million conventional loan applica- crimination. Timothy Bates was more direct. tions received in 1990 by banks and savings in- He testified that this country has an aversion to stitutions in urban areas were from African the minority communitx,3 above and beyond a Americans, although blacks represented 12.3 black-white differential. Specifically, Dr. Bates percent of the general population in urban areas testified that evidence suggests that even among that year. Moreover, loan applications from all approved loans, loan amounts differ between mi- minorities totalled only 305,000, or approxi- norities and nonminorities. In terms of the mately 15 percent of all conventional loan appli- loan-to-equity ratio, he testified that the typical cations made in 1990, despite the fact that black-owned business is awarded less than half minorities constitute 23 percent of the general the loan dollars per equ1ety dollar than non- population. minority small businesses. Catherine Bessant, senior vice president for Overall, witnesses agreed that increased sup- community reinvestment of the NationsBank port for economic development incentivesis Corporation, countered by stating that "the evi- needed. John Kromkowski, president of the Na- dence indicates that the issues which limit credit tional Center for Urban Ethnic Affairs, testified availability among our nation's minority popula- that he has no doubts that community owner- tion are socioeconomic rather than racial in ori- ship of housing, or community developed hous- 160 gin. Similarly, Lawrence Lindsey of the ing projects, are perhaps the only means of as- Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, testi- suring shelter for low- and moderate-income fied that for all races, "the primary criteria are people. Mr. Kromkowski testified, however, credit criteria."161 He further indicated that, al- that unfortunately these programs have not had though efforts to eliminate discrimination from the kind of national support that they deserve at lending practices must continue, the extent of any point.167 racial discrimination in mortgage lending may In the area of business development, Law- not be as prevalent as has been perceived. rence Lindsey suggested that more attentionbe Other witnesses nevertheless stressed that devoted to encouraging enterprise in inner-city the statistical disparities are so striking, and so areas as a means of addressing taxproblems, as consistent with a generation of earlier research, well as obstacles to the provision of social and

158 Ibid.

159 Ibid.

160Bessant Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 164.

161 Lindsey Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 149.

162 Fishbein Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 167.

163Bates Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 184.

164 Ibid.

165 Bates Testimony, transcript at p. 160. Loan or debt to equity ratio is often referred to as leverage. For everydollar of equity, blacks receive less than half the corresponding dollar of debt that whites would receive. See, Timothy Bates, "CommercialBank Financing of White- and Black-Owned Small Business Start-ups, Quarterly Review of Economics and Business, vol. 31, no. 1(1991), p. 67, table 1.

166 Kromkowski Testimony, National Perspectives Hearing, p. 64.

167 Ibid.

23 public services.168 Governor Lindsey suggested able information to assist the Commissionas it that the Federal Reserve Board has successfully explores and evaluates the underlying causes fostered minority enterprise in the past. In par- and growing perception of increased racial and ticular, he noted that, between 1983 and 1987, ethnic tensions in America. On the whole, wit- the number of black-owned businesses increased nesses testified that inequities in education, 50 percent and Hispanic-owned businesses in-/ criminal justice, employment, and economic and creased by 83 percent, while women-owned and entrepreneurship opportunities contributein Asian American-owned businesses also experi- varying degrees to racial and ethnic conflict. The enced significant growth rates. media's insensitive, imbalanced, or distorted Overall, witness testimony confirmed the treatment of these issues, combined with the ab- need for a cohesive development effort. Most sence of strong national leadership towards agreed that much work remained in the area ofequal opportunity, further deepen the divisions funding and coordination. within our nation's rapidly changing communities. These divisions are increasingly manifested Conclusion through violence. The Commission owes a debt of gratitude for The Commission has committed to explore the thoughtful testimony of the witnesses at the these and other issues in the Racial and Ethnic National Perspectives Hearing. The eight panels Tensions Hearing series. convened in Washington, D.C., provided invalu-

168 Lindsey Testimony,National Perspectives Hearing,p. 148.

169Ibid.

18 24 Hearing Before the United States Commission on Civil Rights Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and DiscriminationA National Perspective

teacher of physics and head of the science de- The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights con- partment at Cigarroa High School in El Paso, vened, pursuant to notice, at 8:30 a.m. in the Texas. Office of Personnel Management Auditorium, COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. I amCarl 1900 E Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. Anderson, dean of the John Paul II Institute for Present: Chairperson Arthur A.Fletcher; Studies on Marriage and Family, and vice presi- Vice Chairperson Charles Pei Wang; Commis- dent of the Knights of Columbus. sioners William Barclay Allen, Carl A. Anderson, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. To my immediate Mary Frances Berry, Esther Gonzalez-Arroyo left? Buckley,BlandinaCardenasRamirez,and MR. GONZALEZ. Yes. My name is Wilfredo J. Russell G. Redenbaugh; Staff Director Wilfredo Gonzalez. I am the Staff Director at the U.S. J. Gonzalez; General Counsel Carol McCabe Commission on Civil Rights. Booker; attorney advisor Stella G. Youngblood; CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. To my immediate and social scientist Nadja Zalokar. right, please? Ms. BOOKER. Carol McCabe Booker, general Proceedings counsel, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. There will be other Morning Session, May 21, 1992 members of the Commission to join us. Commis- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. This hearing of the sioner Redenbaugh and Commissioner Charles United States Commission on Civil Rights will Pei Wang will be here tomorrow, and Commis- come to order. Ladies and gentlemen, I am the sioner Blandina Ramirez will also be here to- Chairman of the Commission and on behalf of morrow. myself and my colleagues, I wish to welcome you As required by law, notice of this hearing was to this hearing. I would also like to introduce published in the Federal Register on April 17, myself and other members of the Commission. I 1992. A copy of this notice will be introduced into will have each of the Commissioners introduce the record. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights himself after I introduce myself. is an independent, bipartisan Federal agency of I am Arthur A. Fletcher. I'm the Chairman of the United States Government. It was estab- the Commission and the director for corporate lished by Congress in 1957. Among its duties are social policy and a professor of business adminis- the duty to appraise the laws and policies of the tration at the University of Denver in Denver, Federal Government, to study and collect infor- Colorado. On my right is Commissioner Mary mation, and to serve as a national clearinghouse Frances Berry. Would you please, Commissioner for information, all in connection with discrimi- Berry, indicate what your exact title is and what nation or the denial of equal protection of the you do? laws of this nation, because of race, color, reli- COMMISSIONER BERRY. I am the Geraldine R. gion, sex, age, handicap, national origin, or in Segal Professor of American Social Thought, and the administration of justice. Under the law, the professor of history at the University of Pennsyl- Commission is required to submit reports to the vania. President and to Congress which contain its CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. On my left, please. findings and recommendations for corrective leg- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. My name is Esther islative and executive actions. To enable the Gonzalez-Arroyo Buckley, and I am a high school Commission to fulfill its duties, Congress has

19 25 empowered the Commission to hold hearings governments in the 50 States, indicating that and issue subpoenas for the attendance of wit- our local grass roots organizations, namely our nesses and the production of documents. Most of State Advisory Committees, were repeatedlyre- the witnesses who are scheduled to testify this porting that tensions were rising in practically morning have been subpoenaed. every one of this nation's critical institutions: ed- Perhaps I can best explain the functions and ucation, health, the workplaceyou name it. We the limitations of this Commission by quoting were finding stress, strain, and anxiety that was from a decision of the United States Supreme having a negative impact on race relations in Court: "This Commission does not adjudicate, it this country, at the very hour when itwas be- does not hold trials or determine anyone's civil coming more diverse, and depending on a more or criminal liability. It does not issue orders nor diverse work force than ever before in its history. does it indict, punish or impose legal sanctions. The response to that particular request was It does not make determinations depriving any- that we hold a summit at this time. Hopefully, one of life, liberty or property." In short, the we would have held it ahead of the difficulties in Commission does not and cannot take any affir- Watts and in CaliforniaLos Angeles in particu- mative action which will affect an individual's lar. Responses variedSenator George J. Mitch- legal rights. The only purpose of its existence is ell (D-Maine), the Majority Leader of the Senate, to find facts which may be subsequently used as indicated that he would be willing to participate. the basis for legal or executive actions. We got a response from the White House indicat- In carrying out its legislative mandate, the ing that they thought it was a good idea and Commission has made detailed studies in areas wanted to know more about it. We got one re- such as voting, public education, housing, em- sponse from a Governor saying he really did not ployment, and the administration of justice. In need our assistance, and a response from an- the process, the Commission has held hearings other Governor saying it would be a good idea, across the Nation from California in the west, to but none of them really thought the problem was New York in the east, from Michigan in the as serious as it has turned out to be. In the north, to Florida in the south. In doing so, the meantime, we had already met as a Commission Commission's purpose is not to embarrass any and decided that racial tensions and poverty one State, city, group of people, or individuals, were the twins of disparity, and could produce but rather, to attempt to explore conscientiously exactly what has happened in L.A. Thus, we had and seriously problems and relationships that already set this hearing and a series of addi- are representative of broader civil rights prob- tional hearings to take place across this country lems and issues. Now, in explaining how we ful- before the incident that occurred in California. fill our duty, I find it fitting to quote from a My point is, we were ahead of the curve and former chairman. That chairman said, "The recognized the potential for the kind of violence United States Commission on Civil Rights has that has occurred in Los Angeles, Seattle, At- not deliberately sought controversy, but neither lanta, and other communities. has it retreated from the unpopular. Calmly and So this hearing, and those to follow, were de- dispassionately, it has gathered the facts, and signed to get ahead of this problem before it ex- then, after careful consideration, made its pro- ploded in the way that it has. But now that it nouncements. The history of the Commission has, it appears that your testimony today and has been that it has always been scrupulously your involvement today will probably be more honest and objective in all of its presentations, valuable, more insightful, and more to the point despite the emotion inherent in the areas in than it would have been had the incidents in which we operate." L.A. not occurred. So we're pleased that you Let me now make a few observations about have come and we will move forthwith to get on the purpose of this particular hearing on racial with hearing your testimony. Let me proceed by and ethnic tensions. The Commission embarked saying that although securing information is the upon this project more than a year ago. We actu- major purpose of any of the Commission's hear- ally sent letters to the President, leadership in ings, we are hopeful that this hearing, like oth- the House and the Senate, as well as to all of the ers over the Commission's 35-year history, will

20 26 have very important collateraleffects. Many days after the close of the hearing, a person may times, ,the Commission's hearings have stimu- ask the Commission to correct errors in the tran- lated discussion and increased understanding of script of the hearing of his or her testimony. civil rights problems and have encouraged the Such requests will be granted only to make the correcting of injustices. transcript conform to testimony as presented at The record of this hearing will remain open the hearing. for 30 days after the hearing has ended for the If the Commission determines that any inclusion of materials sent to the Commission. If witness' testimony tends to defame,, degrade, or anyone wishes to submit information as part of incriminate any person, that person, or his or the record, he or she may do so in accordance her counsel, may submit written questions, with the Commission's rules. At this point, I which, in the discretion of the Commission, may should explain that the Commission's proce- be put to the witness. Such person also has a dures require the presence of Federal marshals right to request that witnesses be subpoenaed on at its hearings. Although the Commission and his or her behalf. Witnesses at Commission the marshals know that the majority of citizens hearings are protected by Title 18, sections 1505, would not wish to impede the orderly process of 1512, and 1513 of the U.S. Code, which make it this hearing, the marshals have determined that a crimetothreaten,intimidate,orinjure the security measures they have instituted will witnesses on account of their attendance at gov- help to provide an atmosphere of dignity and ernment proceedings. decorum in which our proceedings will be held. The Commission should immediately be in- Federal law protects all witnesses before this formed of any allegations relating to possible in- Commission. A Federal criminal statute, section timidation of witnesses. I emphasize that we 1505 of Title 18 of the United States Code, consider this to be a very serious matter, and we makes it a crime punishable by a fine of up to will do all in our power to protect witnesses who $5,000 and imprisonment of up to 5 years, or appear at the hearing. Copies of the rules which both, to interfere with a witness before this govern this hearing may be obtained from a Commission. member of the Commission staff. Persons who This morning's session will recess for lunch at have been subpoenaed have already been given 1:15 p.m. and reconvene at 2:15 p.m.. We expect their copy. to recess at about 6:30 p.m. and reconvene to- Finally, I should point out that these rules morrow morning. Prior to my calling the hearing were drafted with the intent of ensuring that to order tomorrow at 8:45 a.m., the Commission Commission hearings be conducted in a fair and will conduct its regular monthly meeting at 8:00 impartial manner. In many cases, the Commis- a.m. This meeting will also be open to the public. sion has gone significantly beyond congressional I will now call on Commissioner Berry to read requirements in providing safeguards for wit- the statement of the rules for the hearing. nesses and other persons. We have done that in COMMISSIONER BERRY. Thank you, Mr. Chair- the belief that useful facts can be developed best man. The observations which are about to be in an atmosphere of calm and objectivity. We made on the Commission's rules constitute noth- hope that such an atmosphere will prevail at ing more than brief summaries of significant this hearing. With respect to the conduct of per- provisions. The rules themselves should be con- sons in this hearing room, the Commission sulted for a fuller understanding. Staff members wants to make clear that all orders by the Chair- will also be available to answer questions that man must be obeyed. Failure by any person to arise during the course of the hearing. The hear- obey an order by Chairman Fletcher, or the ing is open to all, and the public is invited and Commissioner presiding in his absence, will re- urged to attend. sult in the exclusion of the individual from this All witnesses within the Commission's juris- hearing room and criminal prosecution by the diction have been subpoenaed by the Commis- U.S. attorney when required. As previously sion. Everyone who testifies or submits data or noted, each session of this hearing over the next evidence is entitled to obtain a copy of the tran- 2 days will be open to the public. Thank you for script on payment of costs. In addition, within 60

21 BEST COPYAVAILABLE 27 that, and Mr. Chairman, may I have 15 seconds asked to prepare up to 10 minutes of opening to say something about the hearing? remarks, after which, we will have questions CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Please. from the Commissioners. I would like to ask COMMISSIONER BERRY. I only wanted tosay each member of the panel, to introduce himself that my colleague, Commissioner Redenbaugh, for the record, beginning with Mr. Cose. who is not here yet, was principally responsible MR. COSE. Yes, I am Ellis Cose, editor of the for the concept and the proposal that we holda editorial page of the New York Daily News. series of hearings on racial and ethnic tensions CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. in America. Although he is a conservative Re- MR. FEAGIN. Yes, I am Professor Joe Feagin of publican and not of my political persuasion, I the University of Florida. I am a graduate re- want to give him due creditand he will be at search professor of sociology at the University of these hearingsfor making that suggestion, Florida. which was a timely one. Credit should also go to MR. HACKER. Andrew Hacker; I teach at my colleagues, Commissioner Anderson and Queens College in New York City. Commissioner Buckley, who served with me on a MR. KROPP. Arthur Kropp; I am president of subcommittee chaired by Commissioner People for the American Way. Redenbaugh, which developed the concept for MR. MARABLE. I am Manning Marable; I am a the hearing that we held in Mount Pleasant, and professor of history and political science at the for this whole series of hearings. He thought, University of Colorado in Boulder. and we agreed, that the subject was timely, and CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. that no more urgent matter faced this country MS. BOOKER. Mr. Cose, would you care to be- than the subject of racial tensions, which is why gin with your opening remarks? we have come here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair- man. Statement of Ellis Cose, Editorial Page Editor, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you, Com- New York Daily News missionerBerry.Commissioner Redenbaugh MR. COSE. As Chairman Fletcher noted, the would be surprised to find out that he's a Repub- recent rioting in Los Angeles put race and urban lican; he considers himself an Independent. affairs back on America's front pages. Even be- COMMISSIONER BERRY. Hah. fore that uprising, however, it was very clear CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. He has Republican that something frightening was going on in our ways about him, but he considers himself an In- cities and among our young. In New York over dependent. Would any of the other members of the past few weeks we have seen a black kid the Commission care to make an opening re- hurl racial epithets and rocks at a white bicy- mark before we get into the process? Commis- clist; we have seen white kids try to whitewash sioner Anderson? black and Hispanic children; swastikas and anti- COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. No, I think I am Jewish or anti-Asian graffiti have sprouted in going to stick to the time schedule. numerous neighborhoods; portraits of Hitler ap- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner peared in teachers' mail boxes in a Manhattan Buckley? school; and a 17-year-old Puerto Rican boy was COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. No. stabbed and killed, apparently by a group of young black kids who did not care for his ethnic- Overview Panel I ity. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. Counsel, Last year, New York City's police tallied 525 will you call our first panel? bias incidents. This year will probably set a re- MS. BOOKER. Will the first panel please come cord. During the first quarter of 1992, the count to the stage? Mr. Cose, Professor Feagin, Profes- came to more than twice what it was for the sor Hacker, Mr. Kropp, Professor Marable, Mr. same period last year, and New York is not an Page. isolated case. New Jersey State police tabulated MS. BOOKER. Mr. Chairman, members of the 976 bias offenses in 1991, compared with 824 in Commission, each member of the panel has been 1990. The largest category of such offenses was racial. Blacks were the target in 37 percent. It

22 28 was the fourth year in a row that reports of bias are significantly more likely than similarly qual- crimes increased in that State. Minnesota's ified whites to encounter discrimination in ap- department of public safety saw bias crimes in- plying for entry level jobs. crease 38 percent in 1991. Again, racial incidents Minorities, both young and old, also tend to made up the largest category, accounting for 333 feel that the justice system doesn't give them a of the 425 reports. In California, such offenses fair shake. Take your pick, all the surveys say seem to be on the rise as well. A statewide com- essentiallythesamething. A Washington mission recently concluded that hate crimes Post/ABC News poll conducted shortly after the were at an all-time high. [first] Rodney King verdict found that 89 percent What does this mean? For one thing, it means of blacks feel the justice system treats them less that we are paying more attention than ever to fairly than whites. At the same time, however, those who are victimized by bigots. Whether it an apparently increasing number of whites also means racial and ethnic tension is increasing, is feel discriminated against, and many blame mi- difficult to say. Clearly, however, it indicates that norities. A survey by People for the American such tension is being acted on a lot, and often in Way found that nearly 50 percent of whites be- violent ways. The numbers also tell us that bias tween the ages of 15 and 24 believe they face crimes are generally crimes of youth. In New tougher job prospects than minorities. Many also Jersey, for instance, officials reported that hate blame minorities and immigrants for America's crime perpetrators were most likely to be be- welfare crisis and for street crime. tween the ages of 7 and 18. In Minnesota, those Immigration has historically been a source of between the ages of 11 and 20 accounted for 65 tension. The first decade of this century saw percent of offenders. nearly 9 million immigrants come to this coun- America's young are troubled in many ways. try. Those numbers were higher than any the Hate crime is merely one manifestation of that. United States had seen since the government The Children's Defense Fund notes that in the first started tracking immigration in 1820, and 10-24 age group, homicide and suicide rates they caused such consternation that politicians have more than doubled since 1960. The fire- launched a crusade to drive the numbers down. arms homicide rate for black males, 15-19, more Once again, immigration has risen to unprece- than doubled between 1984 and 1988. Simply dented levels. In 1989, for the first time since put, this is a very dangerous time to be young or the turn of the century, the U.S. welcomed more to be around young people, for violenceis than 1 million immigrants in a single year. In epidemic among them. When that violence is 1990 we welcomed over 1.5 million, more than combined with animosity towards other races, or any year in recorded. U.S. history. Granted,the towards homosexuals or immigrants, the results United States is a much bigger place than it was can be devastating. in the early 1900s, but 1.5 million is still a lot of Some of that tension that ends up expressing people. The point is that we are dealing with itself racially is rooted in economics. Earlier this something much larger than simply a rise in week, New York Police Commissioner Lee Brown overt expressions of racial and ethnic tension. appeared before the Democratic Platform Com- We are dealing with some sweeping changes and mittee. He said, "The fact that one percent of some deep problems in our society, and espe- America is richer than everybody else combined cially among our young, and with a nation bub- is a police problem waiting to happen. Unat- bling over with resentments. tended differences of this magnitude," he con- Following the Los Angeles riots, Senator Dan- cluded, "can turn police forces into occupation iel Patrick Moynihan (D-New York) observed armies." In addition, however, many youths, mi- that much of the country has been in the state of nority and white alike, feel they are perfectly denial since the 1960s. In a speech on the Senate justified in harboring resentment toward other floor, he declared, "[we] are past that period of races. Many minority young people, for instance, denial. We are also hampered with a problem far feel wronged by society, and often with good rea- worse today than it was a generation ago. No son. A series of studies by the Urban Institute nearer any true understanding." That we have confirms that young blacks and young Hispanics an immense problem is self-evident. The origins

23 29 and many aspects of it go back much further of discrimination by white Americans, and the than the 1960s, and I am not at allsure that the system of oppression created by 370 years of denial has ended. White prejudice and discrimination. In my new book, A Nation of Strangers, I The jury verdict in the King case and subse- write, "Optimistic forecast notwithstanding,ra- quent urban rebellions have finally brought is- cial animosity has proven to be an enduringsues of race and racial relations back into the American phenomenon, and an inevitable and mass media and public policy discussions, but invaluable political tool. Rather than a fire that they have not yet brought white racism to the flames up and burns itself out, it has morere- center of that national attention. sembled a virus that at times lies dormant, but Since May 1, the news media treatment of can suddenly erupt with vengeance particularly race relations in this country has been rather during periods of stress." strange and distorted. Yesterday I searched for Problems that are in many respects as old as the term "white racism" in Mead Data Central's America itself are not going to vanish in a period huge Nexus database of 160 newspapers and of weeks or even years. While some racial vio- magazines in this country. Not one of the thou- lence can be eliminated through police work, sands of articles in that database published in particularly through community policing, the the last 4 months has a headline with whiterac- cops cannot make it go away. Nor can it be legis- ism in the title. Not one. My May 18, 1992, issue lated out of existence. Two years ago, New of Newsweek, for example, has two front cover Jersey Governor Jim Florio signed the Ethnic headlines: one, "Rethinking Race and Crime in Intimidation Act, one of the toughest antibias America"; the other, "Beyond Black and White." laws in the Nation. Yet racial violence there con- We see the word "race" here, but not the word tinues to rise. This does not mean that we can do "white racism." Nowhere in the extensive arti- nothing; tolerance training, alienation reduction, cles on racial relations within the magazine is opportunity creation, especially for the young, serious attention given to white prejudice and are all working pursuits even if they are, at best, white discrimination. Other magazines have only partial solutions. But more than anything, similar covers. Time's cover says, "Why Race perhaps, we need our political leadership to Still Divides America and Its People." Again, the begin addressing this country's racial problems title does not mention white racism, nor is it instead of exploiting them simply for political made clear that the actions of white Americans, gain. We need a leadership that does not live in not some vague agent called race, have played a state of denial and self-delusion, but can talk the major role in perpetuating the black-white sense about race, economics, and the plight of division in America. our youth. If what we have been hearing the last Many articles in the mass media recently few weeks is any indication, that does not seem have targeted black Americans, asking how they, to be in the cards, since our political leadership the middle class, the rioters, the residents, black these days doesn't seem to be talking sense politicians, think, feel and react. White leaders about much of anything, from the Great Society are reported speaking out for the need for black to Murphy Brown. morality and black hope and sometimes of com- MS. BOOKER. Professor Feagin? munity rebuilding. What is missing is a single article on the role Statement of Joe Feagin, Professor of of white racism in creating the foundation for Sociology, University of Florida racial conflict in the United States of America. MR. FEAG1N. Thank you. Dr. Fletcher and What is missing, not only in the media but in the Commissioners, thank you for inviting me today Nation, is white Americansespecially middle- to address you on this subject. class whites and white leaders in this country Among the causes of racial tensions in this taking responsibility for the widespread preju- country, I think, white racism is the most funda- dice and discrimination that generates rage and mental, if the least discussed. By white racism, I protest among black Americans. mean the entrenched prejudices and stereotypes It was white Americans who, after all, created of white Americans, the subtle and blatant acts the genocide against Native Americans, the

24 30 exploitation of Asian and Latino Americans, and rage over white racism in every black income the slavery and segregation of African Ameri- group, from millionaires to day laborers. cans. It is white Americans who today are still The first black person I interviewed in a 1988- responsible for most continuing discrimination 1992 research project was the owner of a suc- against African Americans and other nonwhite cessful contracting firm in the Southwest. Well- Americans. educatedandmiddleclass,shedescribes We white Americans created the artificial con- numerous examples of discrimination in trying cept of race in the first place to justify our geno- to get her business underway and keep it going cide, exploitation, and discrimination, and we over the last 5 or 6 years. In her opening words, now use such vague concepts as "race divides the in the very first interview we conducted, she country," as a way of describing conditions in captured what it is like being a black person in some vague, impersonal way. But the conditions white America doing business these days, and of racial discrimination have creators, and the this is a quote from her interview, "One step most important creators in the United States of from suicide. What I am saying is the psycholog- America today are white Americans. ical warfare games that we have to play every- As a nation we have been lied to in recent day to just survive. We have to be one way in our years by a gaggle of right wing analysts, who communities and one way in the workplace or in have told us that the primary cause of persisting the business sector; we can never be ourselves racial tensions and problems in this country is all around. I think that may be a given for all not white racism, but instead something else people, but for us particularly; it's really a men- the black underclass or black families or black tal health problem. It's a wonder we haven't all dependency on welfare, etc. These apologists gone out and killed somebody or killed our- have blamed the underclass for its immorality selves." and the black middle class for not taking respon- When I interviewed a retired black psycholo- sibility for the underclass. A favorite phrase isgist in the late 1980sand this man has been "the declining significance of race." We actually known for 50 years as a moderatehe nearly have a book by that title. A denial of white rac- shouted his answer to a question asking, on a ism and a blaming of the black victims of racism scale from 1 to 10 how angry he gets at whites has become intellectually fashionable in the last today. This is a quote: "Ten. I think that there decade. are many blacks whose anger is at that level. But blaming the victim makes no sense if one Mine has had time to grow over the years more takes the time to do field research on everyday and more, and more and more, until now some- discrimination as it is faced in the trenches by times I feel that my grasp on handling myself is people of color in this country. I have just com- tenuous. I think that now I would strike out to pleted two major research projects in the last 4 the point of killing a white discriminator and not years, one involving interviews with 210 middle- think anything about it." class black Americans in 16 cities across the Now both of these people are moderate, country, and another involving indepth inter- middle-class African Americans, one 45 years views with 138 black business people in a major old, the other 74 years old. This barely repressed southeastern city. Both projects found that dis- rage is not limited to a few of the middle-class crimination by whites is still a major problem in respondents whom we interviewed. Anger and this country in public accommodations, in em- rage are common in the interviews. White rac- ployment, in housing, in business, and in school- ism has created great rage in black America and ing, and that much of that discrimination suf- the recent riots are only the beginning of many fered by African Americans isinflicted by more, if that white racism is not confronted and middle-class white Americans. Not the so-called dealt with. The fundamental cause of U.S. racial hard hats, but middle-class white Americans are tensions is white racism, and it is time for white the major villains in American racism. Americans to take responsibility to eradicate The reality of discrimination today is very dif- this cancer from our society. ferent from the commonplace portrait of a de- What is to be done? How do we solve our prob- clining significance of race. There is anger and lems? Many of the solutions are obvious and

31 easy to delineate, but much harder to develop hope of eradicating the racist foundation of the the political will to implement. There is much white-black tensions and conflict in the United that can be done to rid the United States of States of America. white racism and its consequences. First, the CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank youvery consequences of long-term racial discrimination, much. such as poor jobs and poor housing, can be met Ms. BOOKER. Professor Hacker. with a multibillion dollar Marshall Plan for the cities that has been proposed many times. Gov- Statement of Andrew Hacker, Professor of ernment social programs work, as Social Secu- Political Science, Queens College, rity clearly shows, if there is the political will to City University of New York fund them well and over a long period of time. MR. HACKER. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Guaranteeing a decent paying job for every members of the Commission, I am going touse American who wants to work and the training my 10 minutes very informally this morning, for such a job will, over time, largely rid this simply to give you a list, if you like, of a pro- nation of much of the potential for riots and fessor's seminar topics which you can then con- street crime. But we must go beyond govern- duct after I've gone. ment programs for the black victims of white The first is the title we're dealing with today, racism to focus on white racism itself. racial and ethnic tensions. Now, in fact, there is We must put some real teeth into our civil a very real profound difference between race and rights laws so that white discriminators, who ethnicity in American society. Race goes deeper, today get off with nothing, will suffer greatly for is more enduring, more disastrous. The hearings their discrimination crimes. We must create a you're going to be holding today and tomorrow cradle-to-graveeducational programforall will have representatives from Latino, Arab, Americans, but especially white Americans, that Asian, and black groups. Yes, they all come un- teaches the real racial history of the United der the heading of ethnicity and race. States,including genocide,segregation, and If this Commission had been holding a hear- widespreadpresent-daydiscrimination.We ing 100 years ago, in 1892, you would have had must create many television programs in prime representatives from Irish groups, Eastern Eu- time to teach white Americans about our sordid ropean, Austrian, Hungarian, and other ethnic racial history, about our own prejudices and acts groups who talked of the discrimination and the of discrimination, and about strategies for elimi- tensions they faced, and also blacks. The other nating that racism. groups would have disappeared into the main- Most white Americans still deny that they are stream, but black groups and black spokesmen racists and that there is much serious racism in would be present here, 100 years ago and will America. We must educate white Americans to perhaps even be present 100 years from now. see racism in their own attitudes and actions Now there is a difference that has to be em- and to recognize that racism in others. Then we phasizedthis is Sociology 101between im- must somehow develop a large group of white migrants and former slaves. I think what we re- antiracists who fight aggressively against the ally have to look at is: What is there about the racism they encounter in their daily lives. It's legacy of slavery that persists into the present? remarkable in this country. We have a term for Now it's not that people of African ancestry, peo- the extreme racists, but we do not have a term ple whose forebears were slaves, continue to live in this country for the antiracists on the other in slave ways, but rather it is the memory in the end of the spectrum. It is the rare white Ameri- minds of whites today that black people were can today who will speak up against another once slaves, once thought suited to be chattels, white person who tells a racist joke or uses a who could be bought, sold, punished like live- racist epithet or who will challenge a white boss stock. As long as that memory remains alive in or white neighbor who discriminates. Until we white minds, we're going to continue to have whites deal with our own racist inclinations and that stigma attached to a large segment of the speak out against white racism, prejudices, and population, which immigrants will never have to actions everywhere we see it, there is no real suffer.

26 32 Second, I think we ought to be willing to talk much of segregation, particularly residential candidly about certain tendencies among oursegregation, is imposed from the outside on two major racial groups. We're not talking about black Americans. Sociologically, we know in all white and all black people, but on the other terms of endless studies that black Americans hand, there are certain patterns that can be dis- have much less choice as to where to live. You cerned. For example, I really feel it's profitable can end up wanting to live in what's essentially to face the fact that there are two cultures. I a black community, but you still want the choice think when Professor Feagin spoke of the busi- as to where you could go. In this sense, we do nesswoman he had interviewed who said she know that recent immigrants, although I won't had to live one life at work, one life when she say they are welcomed, have much more oppor- was at home, he was reflecting just that. There tunity to choose where they want to live. If they are two sides, two demeanors. It could be called, want to live in what we might call "white neigh- in over-simple terms, expressive versus repres- borhoods," they have much less difficulty than sive. I would even quote my colleague, Leonard black Americans, who have been here for well Jeffries at City University of New YorkI know over 300 years. I am not supposed to quote himwho speaks of We can see this just in the perimeter of Wash- sun people and ice people. He's on to something ington, D.C. In Prince Georges County, which is there, and we ought to look at it and ask what's very much amiddle-classsuburb, you go going on here. through endless streets and you discover the But this comes out, not just simply in the way householders are all black. Are they there volun- you live, not just in the T-shirts you wear but for tarily? Would they like a wider choice as to example, in black-white disparities on the Scho- where to go? Many of them are high civil ser- lastic Aptitude Test and other tests which really vants, Mr. Chairman. This is something I think determine who'll get into colleges and universi- we ought to understand, ought to find out be- ties, who'll get what kinds of employment. You cause we want freedom, freedom of choice, and know there are disparities in scores, which, by at the same time we want people to live where the way, are independent of income. In other they want to live. words, high-income black people still score below Finally, I'll simply take a leaf from what Pro- their white counterparts. It's not because of the fessor Feagin just said and make one or two re- content of the tests, it's not because they ask marks about what underlies the white racism he white questions in a sense of "who was Jane referred to.I suggest that this Commission Austen," or figures in, let's say, European litera- might focus on whites as a racial groupnot ture. You could have all sorts of questions on Italians, not Irish, not Poles, not Jews, but all Zora Neale Hurston, August Wilson, and Toni 200 million whites as a racial group. We have Morrison, but the disparities in scores would endless studies on blacks as a racial group, but still be there. I suggest it's in the multiple choice hardly a book on the dominant racial group in form, this kind of high-tech format, which is dis- this country. You shouldn't hide behind your Ir- criminatory, given the two cultures that we ishness. Let's get the whiteness to the surface. have. In other words, whitesand indeed, we're Here I would say, in a harsh, highly competitive now discovering Asiansdo better on this high- society, whiteness brings status, security, superi- tech format than do people of African ancestry in oritynot just in economic terms, not just in the this country. This is not anything genetic, but as statistics the census turns out on median in- we indicated, because of two cultural styles, two comes, but rather a feeling that no matter what intellectual styles which at this point are rather can happen to you in America, if you're still far apart. white, wellyou may not get to the top, you can This ties in also with the whole topic of segre- fall a bit, but you can fall only just so far. I am gation. Here one ought to face segregation as not the first person to remark that we whites voluntary, segregation as imposed. Quite clearly, have never invented a word like "nigger" to as we say, people like to live where they are apply to those of us who might be at the bottom. comfortable, with other people with whom they So I would suggest, Mr. Chairman and members are comfortable. We know this. But in addition, of the Commission, take a leaf from Oscar

33 Wildeunfortunately a white writer, but a bit at surveyedand it was the first comprehensive the margin, to paraphrase Wilde, "we shouldnot survey of the post-civil rights generation-15 to minimize the importance of being white." 24 yearolds. What we discoveredseveral CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Mr. months ago we called frightening. I wouldn't Kropp. hesitate to say that the disturbing findings in that survey would only be worse if we conducted Statement of Arthur Kropp, President, it today. Briefly, let me tell you whatwe found. People For the American Way First, young people, no matter what theirrace or MR. KROPP. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Com- ethnicity, have lost hope. This is a generation missioners, thank you for inviting me here today. full of fear. It is the first generation in modern With your permission, I would like to submit, for polling that believes America's best days are be- the record, written testimony and be a little in- hind them. I would suggest that is our failure. formal also. It's my hope that after these hear- Second, we found that the economic difficul- ings we will avoid the temptation to let anger ties in this country are playing a part in the carry us away, that we do not get bogged down tensions that exist between racial and ethnic in pointing blame, which our experience proves groups. There is no question about that. And will only further divide this nation, but will look given that fear, and the economic pressures, we for opportunity, for a way to get out of this mess. found that young people of all racial and ethnic While surely America has made great progress groups fall into traps. We have found that white in the legal arena in the area of civil rights, and youngsters, African American youngsters, As- there is more opportunity for minorities than ians, and Hispanics are beginning to build walls, there' was, clearly, in the area of interpersonal viewing each other hostilely, thinking the worst relationships and understanding one another, of one another, really having little interest in we have failed. To illustrate, I would like to read how each camp lives their lives and views life. the following quote: "The destruction and the We have a quote on the cover of our report which bitterness of racial disorder, and the harsh po- was taken from a young African American who lemics of black revolt and white repression have participatedina one-on-one interview with been seen and heard before in this country. It is Peter Hart Research Associates, Inc., who con- time now to end the destruction and the vio- ducted the research for us. I will also give each lence, not only in the streets of the ghetto, but in of you a copy of this report. It says, "Most whites the lives of people." do not feel comfortable interacting with blacks Of course, this wasn't written in the last week because they don't know anything about us. or two, but a quarter of a century ago. It is a Most blacks don't know anything about whites paragraph from the Kerner Commission. People and don't really care to learn." for the American Way tries to be a part of the We also found a generation willing to accept civil rights leadership, a member of the execu- the worst in terms of stereotyping. They also do tive committee of the Leadership Conference on not have the opportunity to confront those Civil Rights, and like the rest of the leadership, stereotypes. In fact, through the course of our we have been very frustrated over the years at research, which was very difficult in terms of our inability not only to progress in the area of getting kids to talk about these issues, we found civil rights, but to stem the damage. Even more that the biggest stumbling block is they never frustrating is the fact that those who seek to did talk about these issues. They never had to divide this nation, whether it's through their po- confront these feelings that are deep down, but litical strategies or their congressional strate- are, of course, guiding their development. In gies, seem to have a firmer grip on the hearts fact, I've talked to several reporters just recently and the minds of the American public. who were astounded, and, in fact, one staff mem- To learn more about that, People for the ber whose child, after the L.A. situation, went American Way decided to conduct research into into class and there were children who wanted the attitudes of Americans on race. You might to talk about what happened in Los Angeles, and call it cynical, but we made another decision to teachers responded, "We have too many things focus on the young generation. Specifically,we on our desks right now, let's not deal with that."

28 These children aren't having the opportunity to their own workplace and they've begun to de- even confront or to discuss these concerns. velop programs, and there are some that are We also found a generation that views issues successful. But do we know about it? Are they through totally different lenses. For instance, is put out as a model? Are there partnerships? Are it any wonder that quota politics plays in the there discussions with other corporate leaders white community when the majority of white about this situation and what can be done? No, youngsters believe that the discriminated seg- it's not a priority. ment of society in America today is whites. The mediawe know that the media probably There is a perception gap in America, and I will next to parental influence has the greatest influ- say that we are doing nothing about it. ence on our young people and on this nation, but All of the effort and the debate that has taken even the media does not deal with these issues place, for instance since Los Angeles, is focused, in a responsible way. The images that are get- out of necessity, on economics and on education ting back to our children generally are negative reform. These are all important issues, but no images, they're played over and over and over one is talking about the way we live with one again. Even when it turns positive, as I suspect another, in terms of how we perceive one an- it will in the next few months, we know that that other,in terms of how we appreciate each window will close again and everyone will revert otherthe way we are forced to exist. We are back to old form. also falling back into the trap where we ghetto- The point, as my time expires, is that we only ize the issue of civil rights. It shouldn't only be go halfway if we focus on the economic issues, on this Commission and civil rights leaders who the reforms that are necessary, and ignore the care about these issues. This is not a civil rights way we live with one another, the way we pro- community concern; this is an American con- ceed with one another. Our young people, in par- cern. ticular, stand at a crossroads. They certainly To that end we have developed a program, have some of the negatives associated with big- and it is only a start, to try to expand the leader- otry, but they're not all the way there yet. Unless ship on these issues. Where is the business com- we do something to begin to counteract what's munity? Where is the academic community? already inside them, we will lose yet another Where is the media in terms of dealing with how generation and another opportunity. Thank you we interact with one another? very much. We recently completed a study called "Hate in CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very the Ivory Tower," where we went to universities much. and colleges across the country representing MS. BOOKER. Professor Marable. over a million students. We know that we have read that there have been a lot of campus inci- Statement of Manning Marable, Professor of dents, but I come here to tell you that most Political Science, History and Sociology, colleges and universities have no program, and Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race In in fact, the response from most administrators America, University of Colorado at Boulder from institutes of higher learning was, "We don't MR. MARABLE. Thank you. I'd like to thank have a problem here, so isn't that nice." the Commission for holding this timely hearing Those that did have programs admitted that on what I believe to be the most important social they weren't as effective as they should be. On and political issue confronting the domestic the other hand, there are some colleges and uni- agenda for the 21st century. My presentation, versities that are dealing with it very effectively. very briefly, is entitled, "Race, Violence and So- Do we know who they are? Do we put those pro- cial Conflict: Past, Present and Future." As a grams out as a model for other colleges and uni- political scientist and historian, I would like to versities? No. The priority isn't there. provide a very brief overview for looking at the The business community, dealing with a di- issue of violence and its relationship to race. verse job market, is by and large avoiding the Nearly a generation ago, black nationalist issue. There are some corporations that have militant H. Rap Brown, then the chairman of the been particularly concerned about problems in Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee

29 35 declared, "Violence is as American as cherry triotism would shield them from racist violence pie." The recent racial unrest in Los Angeles and permit them to secure greater democratic once again illustrates the close connection be- rights. Yet immediately following the conflict, in tween racial prejudice, social conflict, and vio- the Red Summer of 1919, over 70 blacks were lence. A brief historical and contemporary over- lynched, and 11 were burned alive. view provides an illustration of how violence and When African Americans mobilized the non- policies of coercion have been central to the evo- violent demonstrations to overthrow the Jim lution and dynamics of race relations. Crow system a generation ago, they were again Essential to the definition of racism through- confronted by white violence. Black churches out American history has been the systematic and homes were bombed, civil rights leaders and discrimination and exploitation of any people, community organizers by the thousands were whetherineconomics,politicalaffairs,or beaten and arrested, and several key leaders throughout society generally, as an inferior and were assassinated, most prominently Martin Lu- permanently subordinate race. There was, and ther King, Jr., and Medgar Evers. The eruption still remains, a critical distinction between any of inner-city violence in the 1960s was the first social group categorized or defined in racial, significant demonstration of mass illegal force by rather than ethnic terms, and I think this is cru- thousands of African Americans aimed against cial for the Commission to consider. the symbols of white civil authority and private Ethnicity, that is, the patterns of language, property. The urban riots of 1964 and 1972 led to religious rituals, music and myths, family and 250 deaths, 10,000 serious injuries, and 60,000 community organization, is essentially gener- arrests. In Detroit's 1967 civil unrest, 43 resi- ated or produced by a group itself. Race is al- dents were killed, about 2,000 were injured, and most always an identity imposed on one group over 2,700 white-owned businesses were torched by another for the purpose of its domination. In and vandalized with half completely gutted by other words, the very definition of race pre- fire. sumes, to a considerable degree, the presence of Although the media described these acts of force or violence within a society. The entire his- collective violence as riots, this obscures both the tory of the African American experience, from political element which motivated thousands of the denial of full voting and legal rights to the young African Americans into the streets, as pattern of racially stratified labor markets in well as the degree of concurrence with these ac- whichnonwhitesreceivesignificantlyless tions by many blacks who stood along the side- money for the same work performed by whites, lines. Many people who committed arson, theft, is permeated by either individual or institution- or assaults did so not because they were law- alized violence. breakers or criminals, but acted in the belief During the period of slavery from 1619 until that the established civil authorities and the 1865, few whites ever questioned whether blacks standard rules of society were structured in such were not inherently inferior to whites. Violence a way to preserve white power and domination against blacks was endemic to the Jim Crow seg- over black lives. Thus, blacks acted in violence regated South. From 1884 through 1917, more against the system and its symbols, which in than 3,600 African Americans were lynched turn represented violence and inequality in their across the South. The terror was a deliberate daily lives. The nexus of violence in racism has part of a social order designed to maintain the become even more complex in the post-civil permanent inferiority of African Americans. The rights era of the 1980s and 1990s. The older violence also preserved whites as a group with a forms of racial intimidation still exist, despite privileged status, giving them access to higher changes in laws and white public opinion. For wages, better schools and homes than any Afri- example, the American Council on Education can Americans could ever hope to attain. When states that in 1989, incidents involving racist World War I broke out, African Americans over- violence and harassment of minorities were whelmingly supported the popular effort to de- reported at 174 college campuses. Racial vio- feat Germany. They even purchased over $250 lence and acts of racial intimidation ranged from million worth of war bonds hoping that their pa- the arson of a black fraternity house at the

30 36 University of Mississippi, to the harassment of a pect, "sounds like monkey slapping time." "I black cadet at the Citadel in South Carolina by would love to drive down Slauson"that's a white cadets wearing Ku Klux Klan outfits, and street in a black community"with a flame a slave auction at the University of Wisconsin by thrower, we would have a barbecue." Such senti- white students donning blackface. But these ac- ments cannot help but influence the approach of tions only reflect what is, in my judgment, a many law enforcement officers toward minority deeper antipathy toward African Americans and communities during periods of social conflict, in- their place in formerly all-white institutions in creasing the probability of violence. However; both private and public life. For example, 5 most African Americans no longer experience vi- years ago a Newsweek poll of university students olence in such overt forms, but usually in the indicated that only one in six endorsed addi- process of their daily normal liveshigh rates of tional efforts "to hire more minority faculty." unemployment,therealizationofinferior Fifty-three percent affirmed that "the decreased schools, the unchecked proliferation of illegal number of black students at their campuses had drug trafficwithin black communities, the not negatively affected the quality of their edu- growth of homelessness and social despair, are cational experience." all directly or indirectly perceived by many Afri- In electoral politics racial polarization among can Americans as the social product or the con- whites is best represented by the surprising sequences of institutional racial violence. strength of former Nazi and Ku Klux Klansman Although civil rights leaders and black elected David Duke, who succeeded capturing a majority officials are committed to legal forms of demo- of white votes in the 1990 senatorial and the cratic protest, and oppose acts of disruption 1991 gubernatorial campaigns in Louisiana. against civil authority or vandalism of property, There is much evidence that veiled racist ap- the Los Angeles uprising, in my opinion, may peals of candidates such as Duke can mobilize easily trigger a series of massive urban confla- latent hostility among key sectors of the white grations over the next decade and into the next electorate, particularly among those white social century. Young men who have been socialized in classes who are in direct competition for employ- a world of urban street gangs, drugs, and black- ment with racial minorities. Polls indicated, for on-black murder feel within them a nearly un- example, that 63 percent of all Louisiana white governable rage against all forms of power and voters with family incomes between $15,000 and privilege. That rage may express itself in collec- $30,000 annually endorsed Duke last year, while tive acts of violence and selective terror similar less than one-third of all whites earning more to those identified with the Irish Republican than $75,000 annually supported the former Army in the United Kingdom, or by several radi- Klansman. cal Palestinian organizations. If people feel that A firm belief in the permanent racial inferior- all avenues of realistic, effective change within ity of African Americans and other minorities the established order are blocked, they may strongly influences social practices and behavior move to a new level of violence whichcould pos- regardless of official regulations and policies re- sibly target even elected officials, executives, quiring equality and fairness. If one searches for and the police. The next stage of racial violence factors which may explain the violence in the could easily become far more sophisticated. In Rodney King incident, we might begin with the the end, all forms of terror are counterproduc- racial hostility demonstrated among many mem- tive and destructive to those who initiate vio- bers of the Los Angeles Police Department to- lence, but that historical fact does not negate the ward minorities. possibility that that may happen in our country Last year, a public commission reviewing the in the near future. Los Angeles Police Department reported that it To conclude, the onlyway to end the violence found over 700 racist, sexist, and homophobic and the racial conflict is to challenge institu- comments typed into the department's car com- tions, or policies, or educational processes, and munication system over the previous 18 months. values which perpetuate the logic of inequality. I Typical of such statements were comments re- want to second what several members of the garding the use of force to subdue a black sus- panel have said: violence is a symptom of a more

31 37 profound social dynamic, the continued classifi- need to do it, we don't want to do it in front of cation and regimentation of divergent ethnic and the children, and we don't want to do it in mixed cultural groupings into hierarchical racial divi- company. We're embarrassed to do it. sions. In other words, to end racial violence and Perhaps you all felt defensive even holding the hatred which it produces, we must de- these hearings and announcing them before the construct the very idea of race in our society. As L.A. riots came along because it just wasn't fash- long as white Americans are locked into the per- ionable to be talking about. Why do you want to ception that the world is divided into the dis- talk about that? Aren't we past all of that? Race torted structures of race, we only help to perpet- has declined in significance; class is all we need uate the violence which is racism's chief social to care about. We do need to care about class, product. To paraphrase the reggae artist Bob and I am going to get to that, but the denial is so Marley, "until the color of a man's skin is of no important, because denial leads to resentment, greater significance than the color of his eyes, which leads to David Duke. Denial leads to the there'll be war." idea of well, I am not guilty; why are you punish- Ms. BOOKER. Thank you, Professor Marable. ing me; why do you impose remedies that call for Mr. Page. me to do something? I don't think remedies should be oneway. I am going to talk about what Statement of Clarence Page, Pulitzer black folks need to do, too. Prize-Winning Columnist, Chicago Tribune First of all, let's get back to Andrew Hacker's MR. PAGE. Thank you very much for inviting excellent book, Two Nations, based on the Ker- me this morning. I will try to keep my remarks ner Commission's famous statement about being informal and brief. I have no prepared state- two nations. There has been some discussion ment. Let me say that listening to the testimony about it. There ought to be more discussion. this morning, most of which I thoroughly agree We're more than two nations now. The L.A. riots with, I detect a profound sense of what Yogi revealed several resentments going different Berra called "deja vu all over again." That sense ways, and these are realities that we've seen on of "deja vu all over again" comes because so the streets of America, in Chicago and New York, much of what we're talking about I've heard be- Washington, L.A., other cities. I will never forget fore, in the 1960s, which was the last time we the sight of the Korean grocers on the rooftop seemed to care about these issues. holding rifles to guard themselves against loot- You gentlemen are absolutely right, I have ers. heard the L.A. riots referred to as a wakeup call I was talking yesterday to Ronald Takaki of for America. I prefer to think that the riots of the Berkeley, author of the excellent book, Strangers 1960s were the wakeup callwe've been hittingfrom a Different Shorean excellent book if any- the snooze button for 25 years. We have been one wants to study Asian American history in hitting it through denial. We've heard the word this country. Ron said, "You know, people like denial used in different ways this morning, but.me," people like Ronexperts in this sort of area it is absolutely true. Denial of white racism, de- "are starting to rethink the two nations idea, the nial of the roots of racism, discrimination, and two nations model." Now they're looking at a tension is to deny guilt. Shelby Steele, a writing model, but more like colonial Indonesia or the colleague of mine, with whom I have had conge- Philippines. When colonial masters brought in nial intellectual disagreements, made a very Chinese merchants, they formed a new mer- profound statement when he said, "this genera- chant class and at the time that the colonials tion of young people is the most guilt-free gener- moved out, the native population turned against ation America has ever seen. Guilt-free among this merchant class. This is what we're seeing in blacks as well as whites, because they feel no L.A., and what we've seen the west side of sense of historical guilt." Arthur Kropp is abso- Chicagoresentment of Arab merchants who re- lutely right when he says that we have steered placed the European merchants, who fled in the away from even talking about it. I have often riots in the 1960swhat we've seen in Brooklyn, said that race talk is like sex talk in America; it's New York, and various other places. These are something we all know is there, we all know we all areas that need study.

32 38 Hacker is certainly right to say that we need been laughable for Clarence Page to be an edito- to study whites. We also need to study the new rial board member of the Chicago Tribune; for black middle class. My friends in the black con- Ellis Cose to be editorial page editor of the New servative movement have spoken of how we York Daily News. We've come a long way in spend a lot of time studying failure in this coun- many professions; that is obvious. But the media try, and that's true, we spend a lot of time study- now have turned to two archetypes; we either ing poverty. We know what creates poverty. You have Willie Horton or we have Bill Cosby. What know, poverty is a natural condition. What cre- about the vast diversity of America in between? ates wealth? We haven't talked much about that. Again here, you know, we put on the positive We especially haven't talked about it enough in images, and we say, oh, well, we've done our. job. the black community in my view. We're doing great, we have progressed. We send Manning Marable wrote an excellent book signals to our young people that, on the one called How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black hand, say "everything is fine and sanguine," and America. I find it to be an excellent book. I don't at the same time, as Kropp said, they have no want to agree with it, because I am a capitalist. I hope. We need to study white success models; we believe in capitalism; I believe in the magic of need to study black and Asian success models; the market. However, he reports too many facts we also need to study our kids. that are indisputable. I am a person who wants The Detroit News recently did an excellent se- to reach consensus. Arthur Kropp is absolutely ries reanalyzing black priorities. Significantly, it right. I think we all want to reach some sort of was reported by black reporters, photographed consensus, talk about remedies, not just a prob- by black photographers, and completed and lem. What I want to talk about is the fact that managed by black editors. The survey was done capitalism works, but I want to help it work for by black opinion pollsters. This, too, couldn't everybody. Spike Lee raised the issue in Do the have been done 25 years ago, and itself shows Right Thing, why are these Korean merchants progress. But at the same time they went out able to come over here and in 2 years turn an and looked at black views and found that a ma- abandoned building into a thriving fresh produce jority of black Americans that they polled said market. Ron Takaki points out that Korean mer- that they did not think the civil rights leader- chants in New York, most of them have college ship right now had its priorities in the same degrees. In fact, back in Korea, being a mer- order of the problems that are being experienced chant is not really beautiful and a valued profes- on the streets of our cities. In other words, civil sion. Many of these Koreans are highly techni- rights law enforcement was not as important as cally skilled, highly educated in fields where some of the economic problems I am talking they can't get jobs, partly because of racial dis- about, as well as some of the day-to-day racism crimination, and partly because of language bar- that we've been talking aboutthe problems of riers. education, building the basic building blocks of We need to look more closely at these success development, redeveloping black America. models. We need to look at the success models of I think we need to study these kids. A young black entrepreneurs. One thing that dismayed friend of mine was saying the other day, "You me this time about the new resentments in the know, Langston Hughes was talking about what L.A. riots was how stores that had signs that happens to a dream deferred? We need to ask said "black owned" got burned too. That did not what happens when you have no dreams." I am happen in Watts, or at least not on a widely re- very worried. I thought after we had removed ported basis. It's also significant to note, there the ever-present bomb threat that young people were fewer black-owned businesses in 1965 in would have great reason for optimism and hope, Watts. We do have a new black middle class. It is and yet last weekend at the University of Mary- not true to say we have not progressed. We obvi- land, Bill Cosby told a graduating class, "You all ously have progressed, and these mixed signals, ought to demand a refund. There are no jobs out they're very possibly because of the image. there." I think he was reflecting the views of You know, the Kerner Commission talks about young people I've talked to at graduation cere- the media. This was back when it would have monies these days.

33 33 Ellis's book is also excellent. I'll plug his book going to get resentment, you're going to get ris- too this morning. One message I got from his ing neo-Nazism as they're seeing already, and book is the important message of ethnicsucces- resentment against immigrants as they're seeing sion in this country. It's true, resentment of im- in Germany. migrants is nothing new, and the anecdotes We need to expand the lessons of capitalism to abound. What I've seen historically is, of course, those who have not had capital. We need strong that racial tension does tend to follow economic civilrights enforcementno equivocatingon tensions; in hard times like these, very often, thiswe need to recognize that the historical race becomes a scapegoat. We need to, again, legacy of racism has not disappeared. We need to talk about how much economics plays into the take strong measures for remedies. We need ability of racism to be an oppressive force. As far community-based policing. We all want to fight as the racial violence is concerned out in L.A., I crime; we should be at consensus, not logger- saw at least three riotsI am sure we're going heads over this. I hope Philadelphia's new police to have commissions; we certainly should study chief in L.A., whom I've talked to, will be able to this. riot to compare it to the riots of the 1960s do something to ease the idea of the police being and the commissions of the 1960s and some peo- an occupying force in the inner city. ple get confused about this. Finally, Ellis is right, we need leadership from First of all, there certainly was a reaction to the top. Chairman Fletcher, you and I have police brutality, which tends to be the cause be- talked before about discrimination in the mili- hind over 90 percent of the modern urban riots tary. I think it's an important model where in we've seen. The significance was that there the military, when leadership at the top said, wasn't an immediate reaction though. The peo- "Okay, no more discrimination," you saw action. ple waited 14 months for justice to work, and You saw real action. When leadership uses race when they detected that justice did not work, for political ends to exploit it, then you see mass then there was the reaction. So we of the media confusion, which is what we are having now in should be hesitant when we talk about senseless the land. I don't see an immediate end to that, violence. I think Manning Marable was making but it will be up to the voters this year, I think, a very important point here about the history of to make some statements at the voting booth. violence and how we have to look at it in context. Thank you very much for your indulgence and Secondly, there was this political class war, as patience. I call it, of resentment between the "haves" and CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you so much. the "have nots." Let's face it, let's look back at In fact, I want to thank each of you. I've asked the films of this rioting. There were multicultu- each of the members of the Commission to take ral looters; there were multicultural victims, 10 minutes also with respect to their responses black, Hispanic, Mexican, Asian, on both sides, and questions. However, before we start that beingvictimized,beingstolenfrom,being process, two of the other Commissioners have burned out, and doing the stealing and the burn- arrived. Would you please introduce yourselves ing. There was a statement here of anarchy in and indicate the length of time you have been on the streets. This is the modern urban nightmare, the Commission. ladies and gentlemen, anarchy in the streets COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. I am Blandina Car- where social order does break down, where peo- denas Ramirez. I have been on the Commission ple who have not had so much as a parking for almost 12 years, and I have to say that being ticket before go out and commit violence. here today makes the 12 years somehow seem My time has expired. I don't want to abuse worthwhile. I want to thank all of the witnesses the privilege. The third riot is that for fun and who have come here, and I look forward to the profit. Let's not let that devalue the first two. I rest of the hearing. want to just say that I agree, we need, number CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very one, a Marshall Plan. We need to look to Ger- much. Would you also indicate what your profes- many, how West Germany is spending billions to sion is? develop East Germany. They know you can't live with a large underdeveloped population. You're

34 40 COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. I am the director of into law by the President, and became imple- the office of minorities in higher education at the mented at the neighborhood level, somehow American Council on Education. those dollars never quite got to the intended re- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner cipients. I have to be convinced that as things Redenbaugh? stand today, a Marshall Plan will work with ref- COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Thank you, Mr. erence to bringing the economic relief and the Chairman. I am Russell Redenbaugh. I have community-based participation that it will take been on this Commission 2 years. In the rest of to make it happen. my life I am an economistthat may not be the Let me say this to the various presenters. I'll reputation I want to havean economist and ex- start with Mr. Kropp. I've been using your report ecutive of a computer software company. I join at the University of Denver where I am to set up with Commissioner Ramirezinbeing very the International Institute for Corporate Social pleased to be here today and very struck with Policy in the business schooltrying to sensitize the importance of the particular moment in his- today's and tomorrow's business leadership to tory that this Commission findsitself, and the connection between social policy and eco- struck with the opportunity that the Commis- nomics at the grassroots level. It is said that sion has to begin to shift the agenda in this "there is an ill wind that blows no good." As country with respect to race and ethnicity and much as I am depressed over the L.A. situation, class. I would say that the Commission has set I don't have to, for the moment, convince the itself a worthy and ambitious goal in terms of bankers or any businessman in L.A. right now our programmatic approach for the next several that when things get deplorable socially, the bus- years. I am pleased and proud to work here with iness community, starting with the banks and my fellow Commissioners. Thank you. the whole financial services community, finally CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very has to step up to bat, if for no other reason than much, Russ. I am going to put this on the record, to readjust all the loans, write off the losses, and it may make you a little nervous Russ, but I am try to start all over. So for a moment nowand I going to say it anyway. The seven points that maintain that rage has a very short shelf life, Jack Kemp and President Bush have decided to and the concern that flows from rage has a push with reference to economic development in shorter shelf life yetbusiness leaders, and par- the Nation's depressed neighborhoods were gen- ticularly the banks, the insurance companies, erated by Russell Redenbaugh and some sources and others, for a fleeting moment, think they see from Wall Street and myself. So the Civil Rights the connection between their indifference to Commission and its members take every oppor- what we've talked about this morning, and how tunity to do what our charter says we should do, it finally hits their bottom line and can result in and every opportunity to go beyond the charter, losses that they just have to write off and never if possible to have an impact. get back. I am going to stay within my 10 minutes by I might also add that I have used your making some observations and then asking for "Democracy's Next Generation" no later than some responses. I am going to give you a few Monday of this week to present it to a group of minutes to respond to why you think a Marshall young people, about 100 in the class, and give Plan will work in the U.S. I have to tell you that them a chance to respond, and whoever said we ever since my late friend, Whitney Young, said it can't talk about it, you're absolutely right. Those would work, I've had some serious doubts that it young people were hit right between the eyes. would. After I became Assistant Secretary forWho were they? They were the people that you Employment Standards at the U.S. Department were surveying, they were 18 to 24, and they of Labor, I saw the political games that go on by just did not want to talk about it. I almost had to those who have a monopoly on any opportunity mime questions so they would finally begin to that comes out of legislation where money is con- loosen up. But they did not want to talk about it. cerned; I've seen them take the intent of those After the class was over, there were several who words, and when the regulation process was put would talk to me about it. They came into the in place, what left the Congress and was signed room where the rest couldn't see, and wanted to

35 41 talk about it, but to talk about it in the open of all, is not to deal with it. But secondly, you forum, they did not want to talk about. So you're know, racism has come to cover so much terri- absolutely right. tory these days that to me, and I think to a lot of Incidentally, there has been the charge that people, it's almost a meaningless term. I mean, we need a new vocabulary. I don't know about it covers people who hate people of color, but it you writers, maybe you can help us, but they're also covers people who love people of color by saying we need a new vocabulary to discuss this their definition, who just happen to believe that issue, if for no other reason than that's the they aren't as smart as white folks. So, yes, we method that might help us to begin, sir, to talk do need some new words because we have a about white racism. The idea of talking about it whole range of things that that subsumes. Clar- in today's vocabulary causes so much emotion ence and I will get together later and come up that folks are seeking a way to talk about it with some of those words. without talking about it, I guess I don't quite [Laughter.] know, but would you respond to the need for a MR. PAGE. May I just tack on to that and say new vocabulary? that I recently had a discussion at the Evanston MR. COSE. I don't know if we need a new vo- Township High School, an integrated high school cabulary. I think we certainly need some new in a progressive neighborhood in a Chicago words. I was struck that the two white profes- Illinois suburb, and I asked the question, "What sors are the ones that were mentioning white is racism?" The responses I got from that black racism, maybe because those of us who are not and white group illustrated how with most peo- white have learned that to talk about racism is ple what they have in their minds as a definition to raise all kinds of hackles and meanings that of racist is not the same as what the dictionary you don't want to get into. says. This is part of why we have such difficulty It was striking, I think, a couple of years ago talking about it because we don't have a common that the University of Chicago National Opinion meaning for what it is. Some felt, the dictionary Research Center did a survey and found that simply says, [racism is] a belief that one race is huge numbers of whites believe that blacks, by superior to anotherwhich means that anybody many measures, are basically inferior, Hispan- can be racist. A lot of black people hold the view ics, as well as Asians, for that matter. But part that blacks cannot be racist, because we're part of what that explains is why it is that consis- of an oppressed group; that racism includes tentlywhen you poll you also find that so many oppression in its definition and the ability to op- whites essentially say most racism has disap- press, etc. These are all good points, but we don't pearedbecause, in fact, if you believe that peo- have a common language for discussion here. ple are inferior, it is not racist to think that they MR. KROPP. If I can also just say, I think we are inferior and to treat them in ways that say should be careful with the word superior. At they are inferior. If you also believe that, it ex- least in the polling that we conducted with plains why you can believe that you as a white young people, there was a different kind preju- person are discriminated against if you are being dice than I think you would have found 20 to 30 asked to give equal access of some sort to people years ago. In other words, superiority, if we want who are black, and who are therefore inferior. So to use that word, isn't aimed at intelligence or in that sense, I think that there are a lot ofphysical [characteristics]. The kind of really whites who will gladly acknowledge, if not in the base, ignorant views that as I said were much open, at least behind closed doors, that by some more prevalent decades agoif you want to use definition they are racists. But the problem is the word inferiorit would be toward values, in- not that they see themselves as feeling that ferior values or morals or whatever, and that is blacks are inferior, but that they believe that what is driving this wedge, or is responsible for that's perfectly okay. It's interesting also, we a permanent underclass. have writers and academicians here, maybe There were tremendous contradictions that what we need up here is a shrink, because we the young people ended up having to confront have some very convoluted rationalizations for themselves as we forced them to talk this racism going on. So simply to point that out, first through. They come into the room and they

36 42 think that they are a leader, or at least part of MR. FEAGIN. I think that's a very good place to the continuum in terms of progress in the area of start with all of this, Dr. Fletcher. Your throwing civil rights here and that they haven't a preju- the plate against the wall is something very few diced bone in their body. But then they start white Americans do. You know, one big divide talking about it, and I think that this is where between black and white Americans in this coun- the discomfort comes and the things that end up try is most whites have no clue about what coming out of their mouths surprise them. We you're talking about. We don't feel the pain, we found that in the course of a 2-hour focus group, don't feel the anger, we don't throw plates that these people were very uncomfortable with against the wall because of racism and discrimi- what they had just found themselves saying, nation and oppression of all our minorities in that it was a contradiction to them. You know, this country. We're happy, we're contented, most "That's not who I thought I was," and in a lot of of us who are white. We don't even have to think instances people walked away from that saying, about being white most of the time. Many white "Boy, I am a different person than I thought I people can go through their entire lives without was, and I think I need to do something about thinking about being white. Hardly any black this." person can go, what, more than a few hours Now of course, if we just left it there and without being reminded that they're black. never came back to those kids, they would revert So one of the new things that needs to come right back, which is one of the points that I into the language and discussion is this rage think we need to make out of all of this. We will that you're talking about. It's been something be absolutely just as bad off a year from now if that you've hidden. Black Americans have hid- all we do is pay attention to this issue for the den this for good reasons, to make it in our soci- next month or two. ety. We only see it occasionally in the riots, and CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Dr. Feagin, let me my friend here that's a retired psychologist talks say that that rage thing that you talked about, I about how he spent 74 years repressing this am not quite 72, but I am 68. When I heard the rage. He says, "Now I am 74 years old, and the [first Rodney King] decision, I was home eating next white son-of-a-bitch who crosses me, I am alone and for a moment I almost blacked out. going to kill the son-of-a-bitch. I don't care. I am Then I snatched up my plate and slammed it 74; it doesn't matter any more." against the fireplace in my living room and sat CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I know the feeling. there and trembled for a few moments. I did not MR. FEAGIN. Now, this man drives a Merce- realize that for an old feeble fellow I still could des, lives in an upper middle-class white suburb, get that mad. was a prominent professor at a major white uni- But that's why I am fascinated by your report versity, and was considered too moderate by that this rage thing had been reduced to such a many of the black kids on campus. Now this is tangible understanding, and it is, and has been, where the rage is. We're not talking just the kids a kind of a mental problem to put all these faces in L.A.; we're talking about black America. I out there at different times. I haven't been able think one of the new ideas that needs to come to do it too wellI can't. The face I carry past into this discussion is how much pain whites the gate into the White House is the same face I have inflicted on black and other nonwhite show the President. They don't feel too comfort- Americans, how much rage is there because of able when you come straight out. When I testi- the pain. You know, part of this last 10 years of fied the other day, I flat out did the same thing, covering up the storythis lying to us by promi- and to my surprise, I had people come and say, "I nent commentatorsis we whites are convinced did not know you could still be that mad." When there isn't racism in this country. I tell them I am not mad for myself anymore, but MR. COSE. I know this isn't quite my role, but for my great granddaughter and my great I feel compelled to. interject. One of the reasons grandkids when I had hoped that they wouldn't that whites don't feel that is because whites have to travel the road that we've traveled. It don't want to hear that. So part of where that looks like they're going to have to travel it again. gets you is to wonder where in the world is the political consensus going to come from for a new

43 Marshall Plan. If there's a politicalconsensus "declined in significance." However, theyare the out there at all, it seems to revolve around two beneficiaries of institutional racism. So those issues. One is that welfare is too expensive and same students will go out and become loan offi- is too dominated by minorities who don't want to cers and deny African Americans and Latinos work. Two is that there is too much street crime loans at banks at twice the rate that whites get and we've got to do something about that. What denied; and they feel, "Hey, I haven't doneany- I don't understand is how you get from thatcon- thing racist." Or car dealers, in a study in Chi- sensus to a consensus for something like a Mar- cago, can charge African Americanspeople of shall Plan. colorhigher rates for the same cars, using the MR. FEAGIN. Rome is burning and President same negotiating strategiesthat study was Bush is very much like Nero out there, fiddling. done about a year or so agoand they don't feel You know, he has searched for platitudes about they're racists at all. So there's a distance be- the riots and then goes back and plays golf. I tween individual behavior which is overtly racist don't understand how our political officials can and institutional outcomes. We have to link play golf while Rome is burning. those two and make people aware. It's not good MR. MARABLE. In part, because they don't feel enough to say, "I am not racist because I don't what we've been talking aboutthe rage of Afri- use the word `nigger'." We've got to go beyond can Americans, regardless of incomeon this that and see how people concretely benefit from question. Two points, very quickly. I think that a system of inequality that is rooted in the econ- part of the search for a consensus has to begin omy, in the media, in the political institutions, with an honest discourse about the effects and and social institutions before we can craft that the impact of racism upon all sectors of the Afri- new common ground. can American community, and that's why Profes- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Com- sor Feagin's work is so important. The fact that missioner Ramirez? the things that Dr. Flemming and I and other COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. I wish we could just people take for granted, that we don't even think let the panelists keep talking without asking about anymore, the fact that if you try to catch a them any questions. But I do want to ask Mr. cab in a major city, if you're in New York, you've Cose a question in particular, and any other pan- got to pretend like you're going downtown rather elist who might want to comment. As I looked at than uptown to fool the cabbies and get in before what was going on in Los Angeles and then the you tell them where you're going. The fact that I political responses to that, I was looking for have to dress up before I go shopping, or the fact some reason, other than basic humanity and a that I have to think before I do something be- sense of justice and a sense of commitment to cause I know what the social consequences are. the ideals of this countrywhat reason or what That's something that African Americans live reciprocity I could identify, between what was at with, that whites don't have a clue to in their stake for the people in South Central Los Ange- lives. les and in many other cities, and the direct vi- Second thing, real fast. My own sense is that sion of our political leaders about what they had part of our problem is in constructing the na- to offer them. It struck me that the powerful tional consensus and in reconstructing whata influence of great capital in influencing the ac- new language might be, or a new discourse has tions of our political leaders, and the diminution to focus on the distinction between individual of the importance of the vote of the individual in versus institutional racism. That is, my students that game, was probably as powerful a forceas in class at the University of Colorado, and anything. throughout the country when I talk with student Last night there was a presentation on how audiences, say that they feel that they're notrac- one man, who happened to be Asian, gave ists because they haven't burned across. They $500,000 to President Bush's big fundraising don't wear a Ku Klux Klan sheet and they don't dinner, and he was a recent immigrant. I guess I like David Duke, and so consequently they're not am asking, "How do we create a sense of a com- racists. At an individual level, race for them has, mon stake and a common future and a common to use another historically important expression, purpose?"

38 44 MR. COSE. I think that's very difficult, but I becoming our next engineers and will be ab- think that's the political task that we face. The sorbed. typical liberal reaction is to say "we need to help In addition, as we saw in South Central Los these people"; basically it's a reaction of charity. Angeles, there is a capital infusion on the part of You have the typical conservative reaction; it's a immigrants who are building the businesses, in law and order reaction. It is, "we have to putmany cases manufacturing as well as retail. these things down, we have to somehow get this Also, immigrantsI see this in my own borough thing behind us." of Queensare performing the urban renewal. What both reactions share is that they are This is the Marshall Plan in the American style. rooted in a sense of trying to avoid the next riot. It is not public money. This is what is being said, They are not rooted in a sense of trying to build in effect, "Why should we do things for other a nation. people who don't do anything for themselves It does not take a genius to look at where the when we have these new Americans who are demographics are taking us in this country. It doing it the American way?" does not take a genius to realize that we are I might mention, in passing, that in my col- shutting out of society the fastest growing seg- lege, we have comparatively fewer black stu- ments of our population. It also does not take a dents now; and the immigrants are displacing genius to realize that even though American pro- them. And more of our black students are im- ductivity is not declining,itis not growing migrants themselves from the Caribbean. As far nearly as quickly as it once was. It does not take as achieving a consensus is concerned, I can only much to figure out that if you have a society that say that the major consensus in this country is a is economically in trouble, if you are taking the disassociation from people of African origin. Any fastest growing segments and locking them out new immigrant, whether it was the Irish 100 and keeping them from being productive mem- years ago, or somebody coming in from Korea in bers of that society, you have a country that's in an airplane today, disassociates themselves from trouble. You don't just have a Watts that's in people who have their forbears in Africa. It's not trouble. You don't just have a South Side or a race; it's Africa, as opposed to Europe, as op- West Side of Chicago that's in trouble, you don't posed even to Asia. Africa is regarded as differ- just have a Harlem that's in trouble, you have a ent in the minds of Americans. Not just differ- country that's in trouble. I think that the task entbut I am going to be very honest hereI before our political leadership now is to make don't know whether it's going to come out in your the case for this countrythat we're going to surveys, but white people and Asians regard Af- have to figure out a way to work as a country, rica as the least developed continent in evolu- not just so we can stop the next riot, but because tionary terms. In this sense, when we talk about our welfare as a nation depends on this. That's a building a nation here, hey, for 300 years we very difficult political dialogue. It's much more have not accepted people from Africa: We have difficult than blaming Murphy Brown and Lyn- our work cut out for us for the next 300 years. don Johnson for all the problems that we have. MR. FEAGIN. It seems to me that the critical But I think it's a necessary dialogue and one issue here is what responsibility and action the that's going to have to be conducted at the high- white people who run this country take. You est level. know, Tom Dye does this survey of the 7,300 top MR. HACKER. May I give an alternative sce- Americans, those with the greatest power in this nario? Simply to indicate the challenge that's country in corporations, in government, at law ahead and now uphill what some the speakers firms, and in the media. Of those 7,300 people have said it is going to be. There is a Marshall somewhere around 6,900 are white males. White Plan going on right now. It consists of an infu- males run the country, and here I am talking sion of immigrants, legal and illegal, who are about the power at the top. It's that power that willing to meet the economy's work force needs, has to be influenced with hearings like this to both at the unskilled level and at the high-tech take some moral responsibility for a change level. At our colleges of engineering, the enroll- about these problemsthese ultimately white- ments are primarily Asian immigrants, who are generated problems, all of them. Whether it's the

39 45 discrimination against Koreans who have togo First of all, the taxicab example that Manning into business because they can't get other jobs, Marable gave, we often give. Just 3 daysago I white racism lies at the bottom of this problem. was going to speak at a commencement at a Can you think of a single prominent white major American university, where Iwas to give leader, a single one of these 7,000 influential happy thoughts to the graduates, andcame out white Americans who has taken strong antirac- of the hotel and got in a taxi. The doorman ist stands on a regular basis in this country? The opened the door and the guy droveaway from last one I can think of who was an outspoken the hotel and then told me to get out of his cab antiracist among that 7,000 was Lyndon Baines because he did not want any "niggers" in his cab, Johnson. Now, maybe it's because I am a Texan. which I proceeded to do. Then I mademy way to Johnson, of course, had his own questionable the university and gave a happy speech to the background and his own problems, but, for graduates. whatever reason, he was outspoken toward the In any case, those slights to those of us who end of his term against racism in this country. I are middle class often get a response from people can't think of a single leader, corporate or politi- who say that that's a minor incident, which it is, cal, who has been that outspoken about racism but also, I know many young poor black kids as a problem. who are in high school and who are trying to get The Kerner Commission-9 of whose 11 com- jobs as busboys, and are turned away by employ- missioners were white. The Kerner Commission ers who tell them that they don't want to hire said it, "white racism is the fundamental cause blacks as busboys, that they have too many of the explosive mixture in our cities." It seems problems with them. There are, of course, stud- to me that whites at the toppresidents, politi- ies done; at the University of Chicago there has cians, Senators, members of Congress, top corpo- been one recently done about the discrimination rate officials, top university people, top law firm against especially young black males who try to peopleneed to start taking action to deal with get jobs. We can read about issues of discrimina- the racism in our country; these are the people tion against blacks whether they're in the under- who have the power to change things. Not all class, the middle class, or whatever class across whites are created equal, you know. It's not the this land, includingI heard Oprah Winfrey the hardhats who are the primary problem. other day just talking about somebody discrimi- In my interviews with 210 mostly upper nating against her. I guess they did not even middle-class black Americans in 16 cities, most know who she was. of the discrimination they report is at the hands But I'd always been puzzled, I knew why the of middle-class and upper middle-class white denial which has been discussed by the panel menrealtors, bankers, car dealers, bosses, vice takes place among whites, because in Psychology presidents, personnel officers, neighbors, profes- 101 we're taught about why denial takes place, sorsthese are the primary discriminators theybecause if there's denial then you don't have to report in the interviews. Part of the problem has deal with it. I wondered why, though, someone to be recognizing the racism that's in middle and who runs the kind of organization that Mr. upper class white America. That's a big task be- Kropp does would say something likehe proba- cause you're talking about building consensus, bly did not mean it in this sense"we shouldn't political action. The way we work in this country get into casting blame and trying to find out we tend to go with leadership, and we don't have about these things," we should just go over our the moral leadership in this country on racism head and address them or figure out what to do any more. about them. I was always taught that acknowl- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Pass. edgment is the first step in resolution. To the CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner extent that you don't acknowledge that you have Berry. a problem, you never are going to do anything COMMISSIONER BERRY. Thank you, Mr. Chair- about it. man. I'll take my time to make a couple of com- I am more puzzled as to why black people, ments and then ask a question as you and Com- African Americans, especially middle and upper missioner Ramirez have done. class intellectuals, agree with whites that racism

40 46 doesn't exist, or if it does, it's minor and that could call a civil rights agenda being prominent blacks are inferior. I think Mr. Cose is quite cor- in this country. We have had since,January 1981 rect that this notion of our being inferior is at until January 1992, about 12 years of a civil the bottom of a lot of this. He and Professor rights agenda being given a lesser priority in Hacker mentioned this subject. But there arethis country. I think that the documentary re- many African Americans who have been writing cord of the reports done by this Commission, as for the last few years and even before that well as media accounts, would show that this is timethey are prominent nowthat we are in- the case. At the same time we have reports from ferior. I assume they're talking about themselves the Justice Department and other agencies, in- too. When they say things like we don't need cluding this one, of an increase in racial violence civil rights enforcement or affirmative action be- and intimidation and hostility, an increase in op- cause any blacks who are qualified would be position to affirmative action, increasing indica- there anyway, which assumes that any who tors and polls like Mr. Kropp's and others of in- aren't there are not qualified and are therefore creasing racial hostility in the country. What is inferior, and we don't need to give special atten- the answer, if diffusing and deflating the civil tion to economic opportunities because anybody rights agenda and making it less prominent who is good enough will always make it. So I leads to this? To what are we to attribute what wonderedaboutthat,butthen,Professor has happened? Because I could say this, who can Hacker, you've answered that by telling us that blame those who have a civil rights agenda for everyone who comes to this country wants to dis- questioning the agenda of the last 12 years that tance themselves from Africans and from African has resulted in splitting up of black success, Americans because they understand that we're with some of us making it, a third of us left regarded as inferior, and perhaps that is what behind, and a larger group languishing in be- motivates African Americans, who also try to tween only a paycheck away from poverty. distance themselves from other African Ameri- MR. PAGE. May I respond to that? I probably cans. came the closest to saying that when I quoted What I wanted to ask abouta columnist the Detroit News survey of black Americans. The wrote in his column this remark, and I'd like you majority of African Americans polled said that to respond to it, any of you who care. "Who can they thought civil rights groups like the NAACP, blame black conservatives or anyone else for SCLC, Operation Push, go down the line, the questioning a civil rights agenda that has re- Urban Leagueand not so much the Urban sulted in split-level black success with some of League, but they thought that the emphasis on us making it, about a third of us left behind in civil rights enforcement was inappropriate these grinding poverty, and a big group languishing in days to what their biggest concerns were. If I between, only a paycheck away from poverty." may reinterpret this, they thought the emphasis This columnist was talking about the relative on racial integration was inappropriate to what bankruptcy of the civil rights agenda and also their real concerns werewhich were improving has commented on the lack of leadership ac- their schools, getting jobs, and economic ad- knowledged by African Americans in polls for the vancement. I think the reason for that has to do black community. with why I think the statement you quoted from It occurred to me that the Civil Rights Act of that column is benighted. I think that statement 1964 was passed in 1964. Enforcement did not is benighted because it implies that civil rights get underway, according to a study done by this enforcement was to be the panacea for all of our Commission, until about 1968. It was 1969 be- racial problems. I think ordinary black folks on fore all of the machinery was put in place, which the street know better than that. They know means that from about 1969-70 to 1981, even ifthat civil rights enforcement is important. They one forgets about the failures of enforcement and don't say, "Well, you know, we haven't solved the fights about it during the Nixon administra- these problems so we ought to scrap all civil tionsome members of this Commission were rights enforcement." No. But what they are say- engaged in those fightsthat we only had about ing is that they wish the NAACP and a lot 11 years, 12 maximum, of anything that we of other groups would spend more time now

47 41 building the economic development of the inner agenda is irrelevant at best and is trading prob- cities. For one thing, since Brown v. Board of lems at worst. If you also agree with an analysis Education, we look at our schools now, and in that welfare stems from the civil rights system, Andrew Hacker's book, I believe there aresome and that welfare doesn't work, and that crime extensive statistics on how our schools are more somehow was justified by the civil rights com- segregated now racially than they were in the munity, and that crime is a problem, only by sort 1960s. of throwing those things together do you get that COMMISSIONER BERRY. If I may interrupt in kind of conclusion. the interest of preserving my time, Mr. Chair- But I thought your first question was kind of man, I think I haven't made my question clear to interesting and I just wanted to respond to it the panel. very briefly from my perspective as a newspaper CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. executive, and also as somebody who is involved COMMISSIONER BERRY. My question is, in the in publishing. I think it's very interesting that last 12 years, the segregation indices have wors- we have counted 9 or 10 very good books out now ened in schools, for example. on race. We have Nicholas Lemann's book, we MR. PAGE. Right. have Andrew Hacker's book, we have a whole COMMISSIONER BERRY. In the last 12 years we series of books out looking at race, all by white have an upsurge of incidents of racist intimida- men. I find that an interesting phenomenon. My tion and violence. agent and I were talking about this the other MR. PAGE. Are you sure? The reason I asked day, and one of the reasons, I suspect, is not that is because we've only been studying it for because there are no black writers who are in- the last 10 years, haven't we? terested in writing about race, but that the COMMISSIONER BERRY. All I am telling you is white publishing industry is not interested in what they tell us, okay? hearing from these writers. That I find interest- MR. PAGE. But we haven't been studying it ing, because it says something not about just the that long. We really don't know. publishing industry, but about us as a society COMMISSIONER BERRY. We know that racial and what we are prepared to hear, and it comes isolation in the public schools is a major problem back to your question of why is it that even some and that black and Hispanic students are more black writers would say these sorts of things. racially isolated in many of our cities than MR. COSE. Shelby Steele got published, by the they've been before. My query is this, if promot- way. ing a civil rights agenda is what created, or had MR. PAGE. Yes, Shelby Steele got published a role in creating these problems, one would and he's not among those 10 books that I was think that in the last 12 years when a civil talking about. rights agenda has not been prominent at all, MR. CosE. He's not part of the mainstream of civil rights enforcement has declined, there have black opinion either. been big fights about why we don't have it. All of COMMISSIONER BERRY. But he got published. our reports that we've done in this Commission CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Excuse me. When indicate that as far as Federal agencies are con- you want to address the panel, please ask the cerned there are huge backlogs of complaints, Chair, so we can keep some order here, all right? and as far as the local agencies are concerned, Thank you. civil rights enforcement has not been the num- COMMISSIONER BERRY. Mr. Chairman, could I ber one priority on the national agenda in this ask my last question so I'll be finished? My last country for the last 12 years. Why haven't these question is for Professor Hacker. Someone men- problems gotten better instead of worse? tioned the picture of the Korean grocers stand- MR. PAGE. Obviously it's not a logical arguing out in Los Angeles defending themselves. ment. I think it's only logical if you assume that MR. HACKER. Yes. racism does not exist, that discrimination has COMMISSIONER BERRY. I wanted to point out disappeared, which is the argument that, in ef- that no blacks killed any Koreans in that riot, fect, a lot of people make. If you believe that that because I had to take a newspaper to task the is the reality of this country, then a civil rights other day for publishing an article with a picture

42 48 saying the major issue out there was blacks at- policies that we have often result in stacking the tacking Koreans. That did not happen. deck or rigging the game against people. You talked about the old immigrants who What's more troubling is, in my time on the came in and were absorbed and assimilated, as Commission and as we've prepared ourselves for these new immigrants come in and are ab- this hearing, I am beginning to form the opinion sorbedhow do we prevent the black-white that the easy work in the civil rights struggle problem from being obscured completely once over the last 30 years, the easy work has been more, while everybody else comes along and gets done. Minorities can now vote and shop, but the assimilated or whatever? How do we keep the really hard work hasn't been done at all, and same thing that happened beforethis disper- that is giving people access to economic power, to sion of interests, and I am not saying the inter- capital, to production of wealth, not merely to a est is wrong, from dealing with what seems to be good job, but to the production of wealth. The this old very intractable problem, if you leave system is fighting real hard to make sure that out the Native Americans, which I don't want to doesn't happen. I was thinking again about this leave out. Is there some way we can keep the notion of white racism and I think the present momentum to address this black-white problem system is working real well for the people it's while we discuss these other issues too? working well for.I'd never heard about this CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Are you addressing 7,300, the 7,300 club that was just mentioned, any particular person? but I think for most of those people, it's working COMMISSIONER BERRY. Professor Hacker. great. I want to start the questions with Profes- MR. HACKER. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner sor Hacker. Berry, I wish I had a happy face answer for you. It looks to me like it's not in the self-interest The whole definition of this country has been to of the peoplethe 7,300 club, to use that as a pit faction against faction, fan the flames, and metaphor, to change the game. The present sys- keep it goingit's in James Madison in the #10 tem of explicit prejudice and implicit prejudice of The Federalist Papersbecause that means and cognitive blindness and unintended preju- other parts of the country can go on business as dice, all of that together has a basis that's work- usual. I can only say bringing in other ethnicit- ing for somebody. It's in the self-interest of some ies is going to continue the deflection and from, people to have these arrangements. Then what as you say, a basic white-black issue. We have a we're up against in trying to change that is a whole ethnic industry, don't we, of people who pretty powerful foe, and that is really the terrain build careers doing this. I wish I had an answer where I would like to spend my time. Professor for you, Commissioner, but I don't. Hacker, you begin, and feel free to respond in CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very disagreement or in support or in encouragement much,CommissionerBerry.Commissioner or in any way that you would consider forwards Redenbaugh. the discussion. I would be happy to hear your COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. I am struck response. with a couple of things, as I came on the Com- MR. HACKER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Commis- mission and began to study the questions con- sioner, very briefly, I would say I have to agree fronting us, and I am struck with the great ex- with you on this. The 7,300 I think, is an apt tent to which thelet's call it the game of the metaphor. Certainly,it doesn't likecities in economic system or the rules of the gamethe flames, but at the same time it has no interest in great extent to which the rules of the game are any investment in preventing that. For example, rigged against people, against minorities, and we will continue to have Nike sneakers, athletic against people who are outside of the loop ofshoes, made in Korea, and in Brazil, rather than power. This Commission heard testimony from in our central cities. Now, in this sense, the someone a month or two ago, talking about the 7,300 can do quite well in recruiting a work force interaction between the tax burden and the so- by avoiding the central cities. I wish I could give cial welfare system. It was absolutely shocking you a different answer on this, but their defini- to us to see how impossible it is, by the way the tion of self-interest is that, and it is not one that game is designed, to get out of poverty. The very is going to make for national harmony.

49 43 MR. MARABLE. I'll offer friendly disagreement country in Europe, and what one sees is a far and raise three key questions for the 21st cen- more sophisticated level of terror. You may have tury. Why is it in the long-run interest of who- it in this country, and it will only be those elites ever this elite leader is, however it's defined, to to be blamed for it. We are not listening to these focus on these questions out of a matter of self- firebells in the night. interest? First, labor force. There's never been a COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. I would like to world civilization that has ever written off the respond. I don't take much comfort myself in the cities. The core of the central cities are the pro- Workforce 2000 notion. The diversity in the ductive, most creative centers of national life in workplace will cause more Americans to be em- any civilization. So consequently, the labor force ployed here. It may, in fact, accelerate globaliza- issues, if you look at work force projections for tion of the labor market. Clearly, one of the phe- the year 2000, and more important for the year nomena that we are seeing is global falling wage 2050you're talking about within the next 15 rates for unskilled labor. But even accepting the years, the labor force being essentially black, notion that that's right, that by the middle of the Latino, and Asian. By the year 2050, nearly one- next century everything will be fine, I think half of the United States population will consist that's too slow, too long, or even if it's a decade of people of color. So in the short run, yes, corpo- away, I don't see how we can ask people to wait. rate America, the leadership could write off that I don't share your optimism, and I have a differ- population, but they're not going to be able to do ent level of urgency. I would like the panel to it beyond our generation. In fact, they can't re- respond to the question: "What can be done to ally do it now. increasingly show that what we're talking about Second, consumer buying habits. I think one is in the self-interest?" Because right now it of the ways that we can appeal to corporate looks like it's not. It looks like it's off the agenda America is to talk about things they understand. of corporate America, of political America. It Consumer buying habits areinfluenced by doesn't look like it's in the self-interest, other ethnicity and culture. Black Americans don't buy than to restore tranquility. the same things that white Americans buy. Lati- MR. PAGE. If I can just respond briefly. I am nos don't buy the same things that Anglos buy. getting a mixed picture from corporate America. That is, that if you really understand how to sell I am talking to a lot of corporate executives who to a market, if that market share increases for are inviting me to come to speak to their organi- Latinos and blacks, then you're really going to zations or seminars, not on how can we get have to have representatives who are people of around civil rights quotas, but how can we find color to appeal to that market, you're going to qualified minorities, and they're asking this have to change products, and so in the real eco- question quite sincerely. They want to know bet- nomic issues of corporate America, looking at ter where to look, what are they doing wrong consumers and their direction, you're going to that they should be doing right. have to change. Also, we have in Chicago, Washington, and Then finally, the issue that I raised in my tes- every major city that I know of, civic organiza- timony, civil unrest. I predict all the historical tions composed of individual CEOs and corpo- elements are there. There is a collective histori- rate leaders who are tired of having to interview cal protest memory. This is not just a metaphysi- 75 candidates for a secretarial job before they cal concept. This is something that's drawn from find one who is literate enough to even begin to the collective experience, what, in her writing, meet the task. This is already costing corporate Dr. Berry calls "a long memory of African Ameri- America money even in this changing economic cans." Now you've upped the ante, you have peo- environment. At the same time, you're absolute- ple attacking symbols of property and power ly right thatand, of course, Andrew Hacker is they did not attack 25 years ago. I hope I am absolutely right too about the export of much of wrong. I wish I was wrong. But what I tremble our industry and the decline, about how the cre- for and fear is that the next wave of civil disobe- ation of the so-called underclass came about be- dience will be far more sophisticated. Look at cause of the structural reorganization of our any western civilization. Look at any western heavy industries. So I am getting a mixed

44 50 picture. I think that in the corporate world there myselfwhich expands the problem. It not only is a considerable amount of consensus around is happening to blacks, it's happening to other of the need to do something to redevelop the work the visible minority groups. When we talk about force; there just isn't a strong enough will for it the anger, we had a very young female Korean to filter out to a political realm. American lawyer in Los Angeles who was practi- COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. What percent- cally screaming at us because of what she was age of the labor force works for corporate Amer- telling about what had happened in Los Angeles, ica? and there was a lot of anger among these people. MR. PAGE. Oh, you mean as opposed to small People that are stereotyped as very submissive, business? and they don't talk a lot and whatever, were COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Yes. talking a lot to us and they were telling us a lot MR. PAGE. I don't have a figure offhand. of these things. COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. It's diminish- So, I too have seen some of the difficulty in ing. talking about racial tensions because we started MR. PAGE. Yes, it's definitely diminishing. I trying to talk about it in 1988 and nobody lis- mean, all the new jobs created in the 1980s tened at that time. But I am encouraged by see- COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Went some- ing the tremendous knowledge that you have place else. brought to us here today, and I hope that some of MR. PAGE. I know about small businesses, not the suggestions that we're hearing we can see big corporations, but the small businesses are implemented and maybe continue this dialogue. the ones having the toughest time getting the CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. Is there a qualified workers. response to her observation that anyone wants CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very to make? Yes. much. Russ, your time is expired. MR. COSE..Yes, if I could. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Thank you. think I would respond very briefly because we've CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner heard a lot of Buckley? CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. It's a budget prob- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. I don't know that I lem with us. have a question, but I have a couple of comments MR. COSE. Vis-a-vis the nexus of immigration and maybe you all can respond to them. In Sep- and racial tension, I guess there are a couple of tember of 1988 we started off a series of regional points I would like 'to make briefly. The firt is forums that had to do with changing demograph- that I think, to some extent, that observation is ics in this country. At the forums that we held in correct that the year 2050 is not going to see L.A., we heard discussions of the "visible" versus quite the composition that is being projected the "invisible" minority. When you spoke a while now. In other words, that a lot of people who are ago about the immigrants of 30, 40 years ago, immigrating now are going to vanish into the you would have been talking about Irish Ameri- mainstream because a lot of immigrants, a lot of cans and so forth, but I will challenge that the Latino immigrants, are considered white, though immigrants nowthe Korean Americans, the many are not. So to do a straight line projection Salvadorans, the Mexican Americansand the that says in the year 2050, there is going to a black Americans are not an invisible minority. I majority-minority population is probably flat out would expect that 30 years from now you're not wrong, partly because a lot of those people will going to be able to see the assimilation that we not be considered Latino or Hispanic by then. saw in the previous immigrants. I think that There's a great deal of intermarriage among cer- that's part of why we are so concerned as a Com- tain immigrant groups and certainly their off- mission, that we are not expecting this to hap- spring will be considered simply white Ameri- pen. cans. So to some extent that is going to diminish, When Dr. Feagin was describing some of the but it's not going to disappear. anecdotes in his work, I could see Hispanics I think that the fact of the matter is that we standing at the door of the restaurantsas a are going to see an increasingly larger propor- matter of fact, I stood in one of those restaurants tion of visible minorities. I am not so sure that

45 51 an argument to the elites is going to get us very munity in America should not feel guilty. My far, but I think that what is clear is that all jobs concern is that a strategy built solely on white cannot be exported. Number one, there is not, in guilt is bound for failure. Let me give you some fact, a Marshall Plan by immigration, because insight into that. the recent immigrant experience, in this country, When we talked with these young people is a very mixed experience. Despite the fact that about the kind of issues that would elicit guilt, it the new legislation has a category of investor- backfired. In other words, you got a hostile reac- immigrant, come in with a million dollars and tion. What they would throw in your face, become an American, that is not going to be whether it was simplistic or whatever, "don't most immigrants who come into this country. I talk about me holding back this community, think that the point to be made to the elites and when I know what drugs are doing to this com- everyone elseto the extent that we don't em- munity, when I know what teenage pregnancies ploy people, to the extent that we don't make are doing to this community, when I know it them productive members of our society, even if doesn't make any difference that it's black on they don't become part of the corporate work black, what homicides are doing to the black force, somehow this country is going to have to male community, don't talk to me about being come to terms with them. Either this country is exclusive, when I watch on television"I am going to support them through the prison sys- talking through their voiceplease. "When I see tem, through the welfare system, or through Black Entertainment Television, Jesus, what if crime itself. we had white entertainment television, what CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Com- would happen." I am talking through their missioner Anderson. mouths and I understand their thing. Or that COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Thank you, Mr. "they have the NAACP" or that "they have Chairman. I found the panel's comments today United Negro College Fund, don't talk to me to be very informative, very helpful to what about how I have to be less discriminating when we're going to be doing. Mr. Page mentioned in I don't even view myself as discriminating." quoting Shelby Steele that he found this genera- That's why just talking to these kidsbecause tion to be the most guilt-free generation of that's what we studyand trying to pursue that Americans. What struck me about that when I strategy is bound to fail. There are other ways to read it in Mr. Steele's book, and reflecting on it get to that. this morning, is that guilt, or the lack of it, has As I said, when we conducted our discussions something to do with morality. Even immoral and they began to hear themselves, that was far people or immoral actions have a reference to more constructive than if we came in and said, guilt. But amorality is, in a sense, guilt free. you are evil, the society is bad, this is happen- It seems to me that essentially the civil rights ing, that's happening. Forcing them to confront effort in this country for the past 20 to 30 years what they themselves were thinking was far has been a moral effort. So I wonder whether the more constructive, and I think would lead us a panel might address the question of the ability lot further along. to infuse a morality related to civil rights can be It is a dangerous situation that we're con- done in a generation which in a large measure is fronting. amoral. The difficulty is not that they don't have The walls are being built higher and higher; a moral sense about civil rights matters, but the misunderstandings are more acute. One of that there is a general lack, perhaps, of a moral the striking results that we found in the survey sense in many matters, which is one way of say- research was that these young people could talk ing that perhaps hate crimes among young about personal relationships in very sincere Americans are not totally disassociated from, terms, very heartwarming terms, about their say, the extraordinarily high rates of teenage black friend or their Hispanic friend, but then pregnancy. they did not extend it. "Boy, yes, but he's excep- MR. KROPP. If I could respond. This also gives tional. She's exceptional; she's not reflective of me an opportunity to respond to Dr. Berry's con- where the rest of the community is." That is cern. I did not mean to infer that the white corn- where we have to concentrate.

46 52 I don't agree with the assertion; I think it's some morality in white America, if we can vis- just too simplistic to say that white America cerally react and say that's wrong. The problem views blacks as inferior. We did not find that. is we're not being told what's going on. We don't They did not talk in those terms. There was con- understand it; we're illiterate about it. cern about violence and values and, you know, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Com- that they have a stake in all of this. But it was missioner Anderson, please? not in the kind of termsand maybe I am being COMMISSIONER ANDERSON.Ihad another naive, but we spent many, many, many hours question here. One of the panelists, and I think one-on-one, folksit just did not come out that maybe it was you, Mr. Hacker, referred to the way. It was fear. We talked about cultural differ- phrase "sun people and ice people." Then we've ences. I think the white community is fearful heard a lot of talk about whites as a racial because they don't understand. Young white peo- group, a monolithic sort of group and there's ple don't understand the different cultures. They some sense in which that's certainly accurate. see the rap videosyou know, just on the "Today But going back to that distinction between sun Show," Sister Souljah was on, and they were people and ice people, how would you put in Ital- showing the video where she's there while all the ian Americans? Would you consider them ice white police officers are getting gunned down. people or sun people? The reason I raise that is a Now, we understandyou know, we can intellec- serious reason. There are many European eth- tualize and understand what is going on there, nics, Poles, Irish, Jews, who have a longer mem- butyou know, these kids are being bombarded ory of oppression by fellow whites, and that goes with images, and they're saying, "You're blaming back a lot farther than the long memory of slav- me? You're blaming me?" So that's where, as I ery in this country, so that their perception is said, in addition to the economic concerns that one of an historically oppressed minority. There- we talked about, we have to spend time on how fore, to a large extent, they don't perceive them- these people are perceiving one another and selves as part of a monolithic white structure their conditions in life. that has oppressed minorities, because they see MR. FEAGIN. I would like to add one small themselves as having been oppressed by that. I optimistic note. think we can all learn something from looking at CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. We have another white racism, but unless we consider also that panel waiting so I don't want to hold them up too other complicating aspect of it, it seems to me long, but please do. that it may be too narrow. Can you discuss that MR. FEAGIN. In terms of how you approach a little bit more for us? this for solutions. Part of the problem of white MR. HACKER. I am going to discuss it in 30 racism is a matter of self-interest and viscerally seconds. I think you have a fantastic title for a deeply held attitudes. But a big part of the white book here, Commissioner. It would be entitled "A problem in this country is just ignorance and Nation of Victims," and it would include even the illiteracy about black Americans, Asian Ameri- Anglo Saxons who fear that they are being cans, Latinos, Jewish Americans, American ra- moved in on. cial and ethnic history. One of my college stu- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very dents in one of my racial and ethnic relations much. I can't thank this panel enough for getting classes recentlydid not know who Martin our hearing off to a good start. We would appre- Luther King, Jr., was. She thought he was some ciate it, those of you who have prepared state- rock star. There is so much about our history ments, please submit them for the record. As we that white Americans do not know. When you indicated earlier when we opened the session, put it before them as the videotape of Rodney the files won't close for 30 days. I am sure that, King's beatingI mean, white Americans have as you get on your planes and trains and in the been told about police brutality for years. You cars and head back, you will all say, "I should show them one videotapeand the polls I've have said this, that or the other." Whatever you seen suggest a majority of white Americans assume to be a better response than some that think that was wrong. Coming back to Commis- you've already given, please feel free to make it sioner Anderson's point, it suggests there is available to us. You've been very helpful and

47 53 thank you so much for getting us off to a good. adequate support for programs started either in start. We are taking a 5-minute break while the the 1930s or the 1960s or by failing to create next panel organizes itself. new domestic programs. [Recess.] Take, for example, the Upward Bound Pro- gram.. This is 'a program created by R. Sargent Overview Panel II Shriver in 1965 which gives promising, but un- Ms. BOOKER. I'd like to ask the members of derprivileged, minority students the opportunity the panel all to take your places. Dr. Flemming, to have ,supervised experiences with institutions Mr. Hailes, Mr. Kamasaki, Mr. Kromkowski, Ms. of higher learning during the summer, and in Kwok, and Mr. Mokhiber. some cases more than during the summer, be- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. We will commence tween their junior and senior years in secondary with a statement from the former chairman of schools. It is an excellent program, ideal for stu- the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, who is still dents who in many instances would be conduct- recognized as one of the best, if not the best, ing a vain search for jobs or would be wandering chairman the Commission has ever had. Dr. the streets during the summer. It is a program Flemming, please. which provided 51,750 students with opportuni- DR. FLEMMING. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate tiesin the middle 1970s. Eight years later in very much being here this morning. I want to 1991, [it] provided only 36,000 with opportuni- commend you and your associates for holding ties, because of a reduced budget. this hearing on this very important subject. It A study conducted in the 1970s by B.J. seems to me that this is an area where the Com- Berkheimer and his colleagues for the Ford mission should be exercising leadership and I Foundation Fund concluded after rather consis- am delighted that you are in the process of doing tent support for the idea, that the Upward that. Bound program is effectively meeting its man- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER.Thank you, sir. dated objectives to provide participants with the skills and motivation necessary for entry and Statement of Arthur Flemming, Chairman, success in education beyond high school. Why Citizens Commission for Civil Rights and not expand the program, which over a period of National Education Commission 25 years proved that it works, to provide oppor- DR. FLEMMING. In June 1981 the U.S. Com- tunity for 500,000 instead of 50,000less than mission on Civil Rights filed with the President 50,000-36,000 high school students? and the Congress a report entitled Civil Rights: Then there is the Senior Community Employ- A National, Not A Special Interest. In this report ment Program, Title V of the Older Americans we took sharp issue with the President's pro- Act, which provides opportunities for employ- posed budget for 1981-82. We took issue with ment for 60,000 older persons a year. It has func- what we regarded as backward steps in provid- tioned for 25 years. It has provided many coming staff resources for those agencies that had munity service organizations with invaluable been charged with the administration of laws assistance. Along with the Job Training Partner- that provided minorities with the right of access. ship Act, it calls on private industry to tap an We also took issue with proposed reductions of untapped resource as it confronts shortages in staff resources for agencies charged with the re- significantcategories,shortageswhichare sponsibility for carrying out programs which bound to confront us in the next few years if we would create opportunities for exercising those are to have increased productivity. Why not pro- rights of access. It is important, for example, to vide opportunities for 120,000 persons, instead have the right of access to housing, but it is of just 60,000 through a program that has equally important to have the opportunity of ex- proved itself for 25 yearsproved that it works? ercising the right of access to low cost housing. These are simply two illustrations of programs With a few notable exceptions, the civil rights that have proved that they provide opportunities movement has continued to move backwards in for access. the intervening 11 years by failing to provide Programs such as the Job Corps, the Job Training Partnership Act, the program for small

48 54 business, VISTA, and other ACTION programs, of many persons who live in despair, not with Head Start, Title I of the Elementary and Sec- hope. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ondary Education Act, the Older Americans Act, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very the Social Security Act, and the program for low much, sir. Thank you very much. I am sure some cost housing, which have not anywhere near re- of the members of the panel will want to ask alized their possibilities because of inadequate questions and make some observations, and we resources. will shortly. Next, please? We as a nation do have the resources to pro- Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Hailes. vide added support to these and other programs designed to enforce right of access and to provide Statement of Edward A. Halles, Jr., Counsel, opportunities to access. We can increase the per- National Association for the Advancement of sonal income tax and the corporate and income Colored People tax of the wealthy. This can provide us with an MR. HAILES. Good morning. I am Edward A. additional 1 to 200 billion dollars over a 5-year Hailes, Jr., and I am counsel for the Washington period. bureau of the NAACP. The National Association A report by the Congressional Budget Office for the Advancement of Colored People was shows that this will hurt households in the up- founded in 1909. It's the Nation's oldest and per 1 percent whose after tax income doubled in largestcivilrightsorganization,withover the period from 1977 to 1989, or the upper 20 500,000 members in 50 States, the District of percent of households whose after tax income in- Columbia, and abroad. creased 32 percent in this same period, while the Mr. Chairman, we too would like to commend after tax income of the lowest 20 percent the Commission for convening this hearing. In- dropped by 9.1 percent over this same period. deed, there is a compelling need for this hearing, Then we are engaged in the process, as a nation, for we are painfully reminded of the old adage "if of beating our swords into plowshares, a process we cannot find a way to live together as brothers which should result in $100 million over a period and sisters, we will certainly die together as of 5 years being transferred from military pro- fools." The NAACP, therefore, recognizes the ur- grams to domestic programs. gency of addressing the profound problems of The President's budget provides for a transfer poverty, inequality, and discrimination, which of $20 billion, $7 million in 1993, but many on we know lead to racial and ethnic tensions in the the Hill believe that that figure can and should Nation. A cogent, honest, and informed perspec- be doubled or even tripled. Atleast $100 billion tive on this national problem begins with the is available from that source. We are engaged in regrettable reality that the hope of minorities for the process of increasing taxes on alcohol and justice and peace in our communities remains a tobacco which should yield at least $50 billion distant one. Further, tensions along racial and over 5 years for domestic purposes. ethnic lines are exacerbated by present economic These new revenues of $250 to $300 billion conditions and injustices in the legal system. should be earmarked, in part, for the deficit, but We believe we are witnessing a moral crisis in a large part of these new revenues can and our nation that is evidenced by the rise in racial should be used for domestic programs. It is only animosities, hate crimes, and urban unrest; we in this way that we can deal with the underlying are all challenged by a moral imperative to end causes of the riots in Los Angeles and many the hatred, the mistrust, the confusion, and the other cities. It is only in this way that we can destruction. While the NAACP does not purport replace despair with hope in the lives of minori- to hold the solution to this complex dilemma, we ties and poor whites. are convinced that a national commitment to We have programs that have provided oppor- justice and economic empowerment for minori- tunities for access to some individuals, but are ties is essential to the reduction of what we not doing it for many others. Other programs know to be frictions. new programsare needed. We must bite the Looking through the lens of recent events in bullet and provide the resources that are re- Los Angeles, the impact of racial and ethnic ten- quired to make programs come alive in the lives sions becomes readily apparent. The verdict in 55 49 the [first] Rodney King trial and the subsequent and misunderstanding for failure to have mean- destruction of much of south central L.A. have ingful integration in this country. I would like to shaken our nation to its core: 58 dead, 4,000 in- submit, for the record, a copy of our testimony jured, 12,000 arrested, the loss of 40,000 jobs, about the despair and the impact of lending dis- and over $1 billion in damages. Over the past crimination because there are particular in- several months, the videotaped beating of Rod- stances of problems in L.A. that I think are par- ney King by officers of the L.A. Police Depart- ticularly relevant. We also are aware that until ment has come to symbolize the very essence of the Nation makes a strong commitment to the police brutality and official misconduct. The reduction of discriminationunless and until prospect of a not guilty verdict was virtually un- there is a strong commitment to deal directly thinkable, a stunning repudiation of what the with police misconductthe appearance and the nation has seen and heard, then replayed over reality of injustice will further foster these ten- and over again. The verdict was a profound in- sions. I would also like to submit, for the record, justice that left an indelible stain on the social a copy of testimony we have submitted with re- fabric of America. We strongly repudiate the vio- gard to police brutality and recommendations we lence and the looting that resulted in the after- have on how these problems can possibly be re- math of the verdict. The loss of life was particu- solved. larly tragic. However, it is not impossible to While we are committed to the elimination of understand the frustration and the despair thatracial discrimination in all forms of American provoked the almost complete destruction of life, we know that it's going to take strong, vigor- home and community. It is the blinding rage of ous enforcement of present civil rights laws. injustice that ultimately must be addressed. There has just been a retrenchment, a retreat African Americans were especially hard hit by from significant and needed enforcement of civil the King verdict. For us the verdict was yet an- rights laws that are now on the books. We also other reminder that being black in this country strongly support economic incentives and initia- often means living under a different set of rules, tives that will generate a rise in minority entre- and that the criminal justice system and other preneurship, home ownership, safe and strong institutions can be perverted because of race. neighborhoods, and quality integrated educa- The King verdict is the specter of racial discrimi- tional opportunities. Further, we demand a full nation at its most blatant. census count of all minorities so that all minori- We know it will take, after the rebellion and ties can obtain full voting rights and Federal re- violence that followed this unjust verdict, a pow- sources. erful infusion of economic assistance and the The NAACP is aware that our new challenges milk of human kindness to bring jobs, growth, must take into account that the growing number and peace.to L.A. We also know that the prob- of minorities in a declining economy creates in- lems of poverty, inequality, and discrimination creasing competition for decreasing dollars in are pervasive and persistent throughout. the Na- schools and universities, the workplace, the mar- tion. We're particularly disturbed by continued ketplace and, indeed, our neighborhoods. We are patterns of segregation and scapegoating and prepared to meet these new challenges. We have stereotyping that keep racial and ethnic minori- engaged, and will continue to engage, in out- ties apart. African Americans, in particular, are reach efforts with other organizations on a na- the most racially isolated minority in this national and local level. We will also continue to tion. Hispanics and Asians are much more likely work within coalitions of groups representing to live near each other or non-Hispanic whites different cultures with common interests. We than are blacks. have done that on a number of legislative issues We recently testified before the U.S. Congress and economic issues involving civil rights and about lending discrimination, mortgage discrimi- the economy. nation, which results in residential segregation, The continuing racial disparities throughout which in turn continues the practice and the pat- our nation have helped to fuel tensions between tern of public school segregation. Out of that members of various racial groups with regard to segregation there's a continuation of mistrust race-specific scholarships, affirmative action, the

50 56 allocation of Federal resources, and it goes on the table. I would note that we start in dealing and on. It has also helped to increase feelings of with race relations issues with two dominant disaffection by African Americans from the paradigms. One might be able to erase "neutral larger community, but we are prepared to ad- perspectives, which suggest that most of the so- dress the concerns that have been raised by cial and economic disadvantage experienced by those problems. minorities is no longer attributable to discrimi- We can begin the process of healing this na- nation. It suggests by implication that vigorous tion through open and honest dialogue, but we civil rights enforcement is perhaps unnecessary, cannot talk away the tensions. An infusion ofand further suggests that race-conscious reme- economic assistance to the inner cities,civil dies are harmful. Specifically with respect to rights enforcement strategies, and taking on the Hispanics, one variant of this paradigm, articu- urgent commitment to the elimination of pov- lated by a former staff director of this Commis- erty, inequality, and discrimination must be em- sion, suggests that Hispanics do not face sub- bedded in the national conscience. Then we will stantial discrimination, and that any economic begin to see a reduction of the tensions that are disparities faced by Hispanics are attributable under discussion today. principally or solely to immigration. Finally, it is CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very argued that the very remedies proposed by tradi- much. Could we have the next witness presenta- tionalistsvigorous civil rights enforcement and tion, please? extensive domestic social programsin fact, MS. BOOKER. Mr. Kamasaki. create a "victim mentality," which retards Latino social and economic progress. Statement of Charles Kamasaki, Vice There is a second paradigm, which might be President, Office of Research, Advocacy, and labeled a traditionalist civil rights perspective, Legislation, National Council of Laraza which suggests, that much, and arguably most, MR. KAMASAKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. of societal inequality can be attributed to racial My name is Charles Kamasaki. I am vice presi- discrimination. It has as its fundamental policy dent for research,' advocacy, and legislation of thrust vigorous civil rights enforcement, includ- the National Council of LaRaza. ingrace-consciousremedies combinedwith I would like to express the regrets of NCLR a host of domestic social programs. This para- president, Raul Yzaguirre, who is not able to be digm is frequently expressed, sometimes exclu- with you today, but my personal appreciation for sively, in black-white terms. It assumes that the opportunity to testify. I would note at the discrimination is referred to primarily on the outset that my testimony will focus principally basis of skin color. Specifically with respect to on intergroup relations, and within that frame- Hispanics, it is assumed and frequently articu- work, specifically on relations between Hispan- lated that Latinos face only moderate levels of ics and blacks, the Nation's two largest minority discrimination on the basis of skin color. groups. In that connection, we would note that Dealing with these two paradigms, Mr. Chair- we are presenting a narrow perspective. It is not man, we would argue that the two principal as- meant to be comprehensive; it is meant specific- sumptions of the race-neutral paradigm are on ally to focus on tensions. their face inaccurate. I will not go through the Second, it is intended to be provocative, to studies, but I would just note that two recent sharply frame issues in ways that almost never hiring audits with respect to employment dis- find their way into the public arena. In doing so, crimination have found that Latinos in three dif- we recognize that at this point in history we al- ferent markets face a 20 percent chance of most lack a language of public discourse in encountering employment discrimination. Simi- which to discuss these issues. But having said larly with respect to housing, Hispanics face a that, we believe that healthy, harmonious rela- 50 percent or better chance of encountering dis- tions between the Nation's two largest minority crimination when seeking housing. With respect groups are so important to the well-being of the to Hispanic poverty, as of 1990, fully one-quarter Nation that we feel obligated, notwithstanding of all Hispanic families lived in poverty. On the considerable reservations, to put these issues on question of Hispanic poverty and immigration,

51 57 suffice it to say that even when you remove the ally the entire panoply of the Great Society and foreign-born entirely from the data, Latinos are War on Poverty programs. still twice as likely to be poor as are whites. Given this record, no one should be surprised In light of these and other data, the National that Latinos are skeptical about the ability of Council of LaRaza believes it is inaccurate to the traditional civil rights enforcement and anti- suggest, and unreasonable to expect, that the poverty strategies alone to effectively alleviate path to full equality will not require some incor- poverty and discrimination in the Hispanic com- poration of the traditional civil rights and anti- munity. For Latinos committed to the concept of poverty agendas. Having said that, we believe equal opportunity, this situation is untenable. equally fervently that the traditional civil rights Moreover, it has led to a severe heightening of and antipoverty agendas have failed to ade- tensions between Hispanics and blacks in this quately or equitably serve the Hispanic commu- country. nity. With respect to civil rights enforcement, it From the perspective of many Hispanics, in is clear that for Hispanics, the current civil some cases the continuing black-white paradigm rights enforcement system is a sham. NCLR sta- through which these issues are frequently dis- tistical analysis of the equal employment oppor- cussed distorts and leads to fundamental misun- tunity charge case loads reveals, for example, derstanding of the Hispanic condition. In other that at virtually every point in the process, His- cases, many Latinos believe that the black lead- panics are underrepresented. Their complaints ership is itself at least partly responsible for the are closed without remedy to the charging party inadequate civil rights enforcement and under- at a rate much higher than other groups. The representation in social programs experienced EEOC litigates less often on behalf of Hispanics, by Hispanics. Permit me to explain. Many Lati- and when it does so, Hispanics receive consis- nos believe that the tendency to view all civil tently smaller awards. The same situation exists rights issues principally through a black-white with respect to the Department of Housing and paradigm distorts and retards public under- Urban Development. Indeed, if the civil rights standing of and support for the legitimate inter- enforcement system applied the same disparate ests of Hispanics. impact standard to itself that it expects employ- The historical discrimination faced by Latinos ers and Realtors to adhere to, it would be forced in the United States came about not through to conclude, in our judOment, that it is itself slavery and Jim Crow laws, but through equally guilty of discrimination against Hispanics. The malevolent conquests and less legalistic forms of evidence is just as disheartening with respect to discrimination. The motivation for discrimina- many of the Nation's most important social pro- tion against Latinos is not just skin color, but grams. also surname, speech accent, language, and cul- For example, Hispanics constitute at least 13 ture. A black-white paradigm is simply incapable percent of those eligible for Job Training Part- of explaining and accommodating the more di- nership Act services, but fewer than 10 percent verse experiences of Hispanics in the United of the participants. In 1989 Hispanics consti- States. Yet a review of the academic literature tuted about 19 percent of all families with below- and the popular press on these issues, and in- poverty level incomes, but about 11 percent of deed much of the discussion that took place this the households receiving any form of housing as- morning, reveals a sustained consistent reliance sistance. Latinos constitute about 23 percent of on this black-white paradigm in discussing race those eligible for the so-called TRIO programs, issues. including the Upward Bound program that for- In addition, in far too many cases, many Lati- mer Commission Chairman Flemming men- nos believe that black leadership uses its rela- tioned, and less than 17 percent of the partici- tively greater political power to assert its inter- pants. The listgoes on and on. We have ests at the expense of Hispanic interests. In my documented levels of underrepresentation ofwritten statement we refer to comparisons be- Hispanics in the Job Corps, Head Start, pre- tween the levels of representation of blacks and school programs, college loans and grants, virtu- Hispanic among elected officials and those in Federal civil service positions, State and local

52 58 government, and other areas. Many Hispanics two largest minority groups can be achieved only believe that there is a direct proportional rela- by working together. In this context, we are com- tionship between the relatively greater power of mitted to taking every reasonable step that can blacks and the documented severe underservice help to alleviate growing tensions between the to Hispanics in civil rights enforcement and do- two communities. Among those steps, we believe mestic social programs. In this respect, some is a need to redefine the civil rights debate. In an Latinos perceive relatively little difference in the era of rapid demographic change, it is time to behavior toward Hispanics of blacks and Anglos. discard the traditional black-white paradigm In both cases, these observers believe raw politi- which has dominated discussions of race and cal power is brought to bear to deny equitable ethnicity. In short, we argue for the rejection of treatment for a minority group. both of the principal paradigms which have It would be a mistake, Mr. Chairman, to attri- framed our society's perspectives on these issues bute these beliefs to just a small cadre of ex- for so long. In developing a new vision for the tremists. Let me give you some disturbing'exam- future, we suggest a return to first principles, ples. A 1991 poll of Hispanics in Los Angeles that as a society, and as groups and individuals found that 67 percent of Hispanics surveyed be- within that society, we will continue to promote lieved that "Hispanics have the most problems equal opportunity for all groups and will not tol- with blacks." The comparable numbers for An- erate discrimination against any group. glos and Asians were 14 percent and 4 percent To these time-tested principles we would offer respectively. In that same survey, 71 percent of two others: A conscious acceptance of our current the respondents rated relations between the demographic reality that goes beyond mere tol- Hispanic and black communities as mediocre or erance to a deep appreciation of the ethnic diver- poor. In contrast, only 22 percent rated such re- sity that will characterize our future, and a relations excellent or good. A majority of 72 per- newed commitment to root out discrimination, cent believedthis is a year agothat some even when that discrimination may be perpe- form of violence between blacks and. Hispanics in trated by protected classes themselves. Thank the Los Angeles area that summer to be either you. very likely or somewhat likely. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very, In a series of 14 public hearings that have very much. I am indeed pleased to have such a been held by the National Hispanic Leadership frank statement into the record. It is long over- Institute over the past year, it is reported to me due. Thank you very much. that perhaps the most consistent theme ex- MS. BOOKER. Mr. Kromkowski. pressed by local Latino witnesses was the perception of "trouble" in black-Hispanic relations. Statement of John Kromkowski, President, This Commission, I know, needs no reminder of National Center for Urban Ethnic Affairs the civil disturbances that took place in Mount MR. KROMKOWSKi. Thank you very much. The Pleasant in this very city a year ago. The Na- National Center for Urban Ethnic Affairs has tional Council of LaRaza believes it would be been a civil rights and urban advocate, and tech- both irresponsible and unwise to continue to ig- nical assistance provider, for the last 20 years in nore this issue. Despite our serious misgivings older industrial cities of the northeast and the about raising these concerns in so public a midwest. It's out of that experience that our re- forum, and with full knowledge that some may flections on the possibility of developing a new attempt to exploit these tensions in ways inimi- paradigm for understanding not only racial and cal to both blacks and Hispanics, we feel obli- ethnic tension, but racial and ethnic tension and gated to come forward and put these issues discrimination, and the urbanization and metro- squarely on the table. Notwithstanding these politanization of the American reality. tensions, Mr. Chairman, we maintain our belief We find the central irony of this hearing is that there is much more that unites black and that a national perspective on poverty, inequal- Hispanic communities than divides them. We ity, discrimination, and on racial and ethnic ten- further believe that real, sustained, tangible sion in American communities yields evidence progress in achieving equality for the Nation's which is sufficiently strong in support of the

53 59 proposition that a national perspectiveon such multiethnic coalitions and a foremost national concerns must become the local perspective. advocate of the national government's assistance Thus, it is our hope that the national perspective role in affirming ethnicity and community self- proposed in the following findings, which I will help, the Baroni Institute would bea research leave with the Commission, because it hasa and educational organization designed to de- rather substantial list of very specific items that velop and disseminate healthy understandings I certainly want to summarize in my presenta- and articulations of ethnicities and wholesome tion, will initiate a process of reattuning the na- approaches to resolving group tension. The insti- tional institutions and policies to the realities of tute would also create and generate a national racial and ethnic tension, and readdressing the network of culturally competent persons with co- causes of poverty, inequality, and discrimination. alition building strategies that could be used as National assistance to distressed communities resources and an extension service for communi- and marginated ethnic groups has been ignored ties throughout this land. and neglected for too long. The tasks proposed in The second national institution that we feel is most regards are beyond the capacity of the U.S. absolutely essential is the creation of the Na- Commission on Civil Rights. Yet this Commis- tional Endowment for Neighborhoods. It will be sion can catalyze initiatives which could begin chartered and capitalized by public and private national efforts in support of fruitful local strate- sources as a national development bank and gies that overcome community tensions and per- philanthropic institution. It would provide fiscal sistent disparities. The following analysis, per- and technical assistance for communities that ceptions, and exhortations from the world of involve themselves in expanding ownership and ethnic communities and neighborhoods that I participation.The National Endowment for have studied, and reports that I have collected Neighborhoods would have a long-term commit- and- compiled, are submitted for your review. ment to projects in community-based, nonprofit They indicate that throughout the country, over housing, education, cultural facilities, social and the last 30 years, we've learned a good deal health facilities, economic growth, and safety in about ethnic relations and the processes of nur- urban neighborhoods. turing community-based development. Thus por- Finally, a third national institution would be tions of the following studies are submitted: The called the National Forum on Representative Revival and Recovery of Neighborhoods; Im- Government. It would initiate explorations and migration,Ethnicity and the Neighborhood examinations of additional approaches to popu- Agenda: An Ethnic Perspective; and finally, Why lar participation in electoral representation, in 435: Rediscovering the Democratic Principal. We legislative bodies and executive boards and com- feel these four arguments suggest pieces of a missions of all government and quasi-public ma- new vision and evidence of the local experience jor national institutions whose impact on the of building and nurturing ethnic pluralism and course of our shared existence and sense of trust community-based approaches to overcoming var- and legitimacy demand ongoing resolve to build ious difficulties. What I mean to suggest is that consensus and consent.Particular attention it is time national leaders and national institu- should be focused on: 1) the decline in urban tions and national resources supported and en- representation in the House of Representatives; hanced what we know can and must be done. A 2) the size of city councils and the importance of fresh approach to these issues will require, from expanding the role of neighborhood organiza- our perspective, a three-part centerpiece, three tions in municipal budgets and allocation of pub- new national efforts. First, we need to found na- lic services; 3) the disparities and fragmentation tional institutions that address the three central of municipal and surrounding jurisdictions. themes of our argument. These and other concerns related to the further- The first new national institution that this ance of democratic and representational mecha- Commission, I hope, will bring to the halls of nisms of government are very important to our executive power and to the halls of Congress is capacity to sustain self-government. Fashioning the creation of the Geno C. Baroni Institute for credible institutions to provide opportunities of Ethnic Affairs. So named for the late founder of shared citizenship may be the most important

54 60 process through which and in which we may be housingcosts,income,and education and able to overcome our differences and the sources achievementwe may, infact, through this of group tensions.Self-government requires strategyperhaps the elites of the nation that conversations, deliberations, and compromise, as designed this strategy had a segmentation model well as faith in each other to uphold laws that in mind to, in fact, isolate and minimize conflict. we have participated in making. Once in a while, all too painfully we are Critics of proposals for the creation of new jogged to remember and to see violent events at national institutions devoted to resolving ten- the intersection of class, ethnic, racial, and reli- sions and minimizing disparities may argue gious clusters. These are stunning examples of there's really no need for concern. After all, our failure to resolve tension, but I submit that America is doing much better than Yugoslavia. an apparent peacefulness and harmony in isola- Such poor counsel repeats the all too common tion and segmentation is yielding much more language of the 1980s: "be happy, don't worry." profound deficits. We are destroying America's We must seek better and wiser counsel. We need unique capacity to have a population that has to face systematic neglect of the work of coalition second and third cultural confidence. How the building and consensus enhancing. We have to burdens and benefits of this enormously wealthy work on expanding equity. These are important and powerful country will be distributed in this national concerns. The avoidance of remedies for ethnically, racially, and religiously, and economi- disparities in access, recognition, and rewards, cally and spatially differentiated country will de- as well as the location of residents in areasof termine how closely we will approach our civil decline, is a national scandal. The U.S. Civil pledge to each other to pursue liberty and justice Rights Commission must recharge the debate for all. that ended in 1980 on supporting people and CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very places. The alarm has been sounded; the pre- much. The next speaker, please? tending that urban and ethnic policy could be MS. BOOKER. Ms. Kwok, if you would begin by put on automatic pilot must end. Some of us feel introducing yourself for the record. that it's still possible to regain the energy and momentum required to foster new social inven- Statement of Daphne Kwok, Executive Director, tions in pursuit of democracy, in pursuit of eco- Organization of Chinese Americans, Inc. nomic development, in pursuit of cultural justice MS. KwOK. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. for all. These tasks can be achieved by adopting Chairman and members of the Commission. a hope-filled approach to understanding ethnicit- Thank you very much for inviting the Organiza- ies and communities. tion of Chinese Americans [OCA] to present the I think we must begin with finding a new Chinese American and Asian American commu- commitment, perhaps one that begins by avoid- nity's perspective on racial and ethnic tensions ing rhetoric that affixes blame and hardens the in American communities. critique of past and present practices. Moreover, My name is Daphne Kwok and I am the exec- all Americans must disavow the divisive use ofutive director of OCA, a nonprofit, nonpartisan the past and selective memories of ethnic and organization headquartered in Washington, D.C. racial oppression. Such misuses of ethnic energy OCA is committed to securing justice, equal and the invocation of tradition paralyzes our treatment, and equal opportunity for Chinese ability to understand and to act within the cur- Americans and eliminating ignorance about and rent and ongoing process of reconstituting de- bigotry against Chinese Americans. At this time mocracy and cultural justice. I think that we I would like to commend the Commission for the have a long record of suggesting that coalitions recently released report Civil Rights Issues Fac- can be developed, and we have some rather stun- ing Asian Americans in the 1990s. Your report ning examples at the local level. It seems to me, accurately identifies and summarizes the key is- however, that we are consistently losing ground, sues affecting the Asian American community, given the demographic shifts and the clustering and it should be fully utilized in this discussion of some 40 types of basically segmented people. about racial tensions and how to overcome the Based on segmentation, it is well-documented by issue.

55 61 As many of you may be aware, the Asian/ Pa- phobia based on the color of our skin andour cific Islander [API] population has exploded different appearance, but we are also subject to within the last decade, an explosion whichnu- the negative implications of some ofour success. merically is not at an overwhelming or threaten- Racial tension against Asian Americans stems ing level, but which is a burgeoning statistic in from the achievements of a few, which hasre- percentage terms. According to 1990 U.S. Cen- sulted in the stereotype that now has Asian sus Bureau data, the dramatic percentage in- Americans perceived and depicted as "the model crease of the API population since 1980 is 107.8 minority." percent, the largest percentage increase for any What is the "model minority" stereotype and group. The API percentage of the overall U.S. why is it negative? The "model minority" myth population increased in the last decade from .1.5 describes Asian Americans as hardworking, in- percent to 2.9 percent. We are concentrated in telligent, academic superstars, excelling in math seven States: California, New York, Hawaii, and science, highly educated Ph.D.s, rich, who Texas, Illinois, New Jersey, and Washington. The have good jobs and are successful, haveno population increase within the last decade stems problems such as school dropouts, drugs,gangs, from the repeal of restrictive and discriminatory AIDS, and broken families. They are alwayspo- immigration laws that were in effect until 1952 lite and never question authority. The stereotype when the McCarran-Walter Act ended the ban is very damaging because many Asian Ameri- on Asian immigration. Only after 1952 were As- cans do not fall into this category and their ians allowed naturalization rights. But itwas needs are unperceived and unaddressed. These not really until 1965, only 27 years ago, when sweeping generalizations do not factor in the so- the 20,000 immigration visa per country system cial,economic, and ethnic diversity of the allowed Asians to emigrate to the U.S. on an Asian/Pacific Islander community, which is com- equal basis with all other nationalities. There- posed of 27 different ethnic groups. Each group fore,it is only in recent history that Asian experiences its own difficulties and problems, Americans have been able to be naturalized, and depending upon the length of stay in the U.S., able to participate in the immigration process conditions upon their immigration to the U.S., just like non-Asians. Increased Asian immigra- cultural differences, education levels, etc. tion has also resulted from Asian American citi- The media has focused so much attention on zens and permanent residents utilizing the sec- the successful Asian American, such as the ond andfifthpreference categoriesfor Southeast Asian refugee who fled a war-torn immigration visas. The second preference cate- country and came to the U.S. with no English gory is for spouses and unmarried children of skills to become valedictorian of a high school permanent residents, and the fifth preference is class or college. Over the years, numerous front for brothers and sisters of permanent residents. cover stories, like in Time magazine, and news These two categories are heavily used by the stories on the nightly news have highlighted to Asian American population to reunify families, the general public Asian American success sto- as the family unit is a high priority in Asian ries. There are rarely, if any, stories about the cultures. other side of the Asian American story. For ex- For most Americans, the immigration history ample, the Hmong people face incredible cul- of Asians is not known, yet it is .a vital piece of tural obstacles once in the U.S. because their knowledge necessary to dispel the seeds forra- culture does not have a written language, while cial tension. With the unfamiliarity and misper- the U.S. is based upon the written language. The ception about Asians and their presence in theheightened media coverage coupled with very U.S., people can easily view APIs as overtaking visible Asian immigration trends makes it is the U.S. Because APIs are readily identifiable by easy to understand why Americans feel like As- their physical features, they have becomean ians are taking over the U.S. easy target for unpopular sentiment. The Asian How has this attention resulted in increased American community faces an ironic and unique racial tension? Asian Americans arenow being set of circumstances that causes racial tension. pitted against other racial minorities, primarily Asian Americans are subject not only toxeno- the African Americans and Hispanic Americans.

56 62 The "model minority" myth is being used by cuss the L.A. riots. The meeting was described some people as the dividing instrument to drive by the media as a "civil rights meeting," in which a wedge between Asian Americans and African a member of the Hispanic community was able Americans and Hispanic Americans. The wedge to attend only because he requested to, but in is that Asian Americans are excelling on their which no Asian Americans were part of the own without any public assistance so why can't table. Now, if this was a meeting to dispel racial the other groups follow the Asians' lead. We tension, the President should have recognized a must not perpetuate this divisive point. The his- need for all players to participate. Perhaps the torical background for each group and what they Asian Americans were assumed to be able to re- are still going through must not be forgotten.An build their losses and to take care of themselves example is Congressman Dana Rohrabacher's.since they are all industrious and hardworking. (D-CA) repeated attempts to single out the un- Solutions. The best place to start to reducing fair use of Asian American quotas in the college racial tensions is for everyone to read the Com- admissions process. He wants to see that Asian mission'sCivil RightsIssues Facing Asian Americans are getting their fair shake in the Americans in the 1990s report. Through the process while not assisting the exact same needs reading, one will be able to learn about the prob- of the other disenfranchised groups. On March lems that Asian Americans face and the realiza- 26, 1992, OCA members of the Asian American tion that Asian Americans are just like any other community and the Asian American members of Americans. The second step would be the im- the House of Representatives loudly voiced our plementation of the Commission report's recom- opposition to the Rohrabacher amendment that mendations. This would be a logical place to would have pitted Asian Americans against our start from, since issues and solutions have minority brothers and sisters who also suffer the already been identified. For example, several same injustices in the admissions process.OCA recommendations state that all levels of govern- believes that Asian Americans are not the only ment need to recognize Asian American inclu- race to be affected by racial discrimination in sion in all policy discussion and programs. The higher education, and that singling out Asian government and our leaders need to set the ex- Americans in the discussion is extremely divi- ample in dealing with inclusive and nondiscrimi- sive. We do not want any special treatment natory policies. attheexpenseofothers.Congressman Third, we must dispel the "model minority" Rohrabacher needs to address the admissions myth when speaking about, writing about or process for all groups, and not just for one tar- thinking about Asian Americans. Finally, and geted group. We do not want to be the cause for most importantly, when we talk about race rela- further resentment towards Asian Americans; tions and the need to quell racial tensions, we yet, others in their actions have, caused poten- need to remember that race includes not only tially divisive sentiment. African Americans and Hispanic Americans, but Another example of the negative effects on the also Asian Americans and Native Americans. minority population is the myth that Asian Asian Americans need to be part of the deci- Americans are not affected by discrimination sionmaking process, and need to be seen as ca- and civil rights issues; therefore, they do not pable players with an equal stake in the discus- need assistance or need to be a player in such sion. Today and tomorrow's Commission hearing matters. Most recently, the L.A. riots are a glar- demonstrates the Commission's seriousness in ing example of the need for all community mem- addressing the racial and ethnic tensions by in- bers to be involved in the process of rebuilding, volving the participation of all sectors of the healing, discussing, planning, and preventing fu- community. OCA and the Asian American com- ture acts. Many times Asian Americans are left munity is more than willing to provide assis- out of the discussion as they may be perceived as tance addressing racial tensions. We need to all unaffected. When President George Bush called work together to continue to learn more about a meeting with African American community one another and to bring more and moreplayers leaders shortly after the riots, it was natural for into the picture. I thank you very much for pro- outsiders to surmise that the meeting was to dis- viding us the opportunity to address the group.

57 63 CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very Alan Bozak, who came from South Africa to ad- much. dress us on these very issues. MS. BOOKER. Mr. Mokhiber. During 1991 the Arab American community was gripped in crisis, nationwide, as a mounting Statement of Albert Mokhiber, President, spiral of hate crimes, violent assaults, arson, American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and threatsof violenceacceleratedtoan MR. MOKHIBER. Mr. Chairman, Commission- unprecedented increase of 300 percent in just a ers and distinguished panelists, I am Albert 12-month period. I would like to also introduce Mokhiber, president of the American Arab Anti- into the record the 1991 report on Anti-Arab Discrimination Committee, an organization that Hate Crimes, which documents all of these prob- has 25,000 members nationwide and 70 chapters lems that we were facing as a result of the Gulf across the United States. We have testified be- War. As you can see, from the outset of the war fore you in the past and we appreciate the oppor- in January to the end of March and April, there tunity to be included again today. was a decreasewhich shows that there was a I welcome the opportunity to examine with direct correlation between hate crimes against you the grievous consequences that poverty, in- the Arab American community and the Gulf cri- equality, and discrimination have inflicted on sis. We, in effect, became the domestic casualties our society, as well as on most other nations. of that war. We have noted this back to 1985, These issues were recently addressed by ADC at when we first started reporting hate crimes our national convention, which drew thousands against our community, when on October 11, of Arab Americans together todiscuss our 1985, our regional director, Alex Odeh, was as- theme, "Civil Rights at Home, Human Rights sassinated. Abroad." Over and above the current moral There had been attacks before, there had been crisis and the turmoil facing this nation stem- discrimination, there had been disenfranchise- ming from the brutal beating inflicted on Rodney ment from opportunity, but never had the inci- King, the issues before us today are long-stand- dents of terror and street violence been visited ing. They are not likely to be eradicated until on this community in such numbers and at such some remedies are formulated from probing a level as during the Gulf crisis. While the vio- analyses such as that initiated by this Commis- lence has subsided for the most part since the sion today, and until deep and fundamental end of the war, the discrimination continues. change is introduced into the very fabric ofJust last week an Arab American had gone to American life. register to vote in New Mexico and was told that As a nation, we_have learned a bitter lesson in under the laws of New Mexico, an Arab Ameri- recent decades which underscores the fact that can from Palestine could not use that appella- neither the impact of the law, nor the putting in tion as a country of origin. This Jewish Ameri- place of ad hoc interim programs is sufficient to can registrar barred the Arab American from undo the evils or the consequences of 500 years registering. Fortunately, the attention of the au- of deeply entrenched inequities rooted in our so- thorities in New Mexico was brought to this ciety. When Arab Americans, whose problems I issue; the applicant was able to later apply for a specifically bring to you today, first saw the registration, and that individual was taken off of ghastly media reenactment of the Rodney King the roll. However, it shows that this is an ongo- beating, we were reminded forcibly of the daily ing problem; it's something that doesn't end with treatment of the Palestinians of the occupied ter- the violence. It's festering day in and day out. ritories at the hands of the Israeli military occu- Our community is a victim of a bifurcated pation forces. We could not easily distinguish the problem. We suffer from effects in a larger soci- violence inflicted on the American highway in ety of both racial and religious stereotyping, as southern California from the daily acts of ag- well as from politically motivated discrimination gression and torture suffered on the highways and acts of terrorist violence. The frequent and byways of South Africa. This was under- media approach to Arabs rarely shows us as or- scored for us again 2 weeks ago by the Reverend dinary citizens with understandable life goals andaspirations.We aremorefrequently

64 58 characterized, as are Asian Americans and other but it was okay to go after the Arabs and the minority groups, as villains who pose a threat to Muslim religion. society at large and who, because of unfathom- Thepoliticallymotivatedviolencelodged ablemotives,seekextraordinary power or against our organization, and the Arab American riches, with no limits to the greed or corruption community in general, is a scourge that must be accompanying that alleged quest. halted. I refer specifically to the bombing of Our women are portrayed either as belly- ADC's offices in Boston, Los Angeles, and a sus- dancers and promiscuous or as veiled women. picious fire here in Washington [D.C.] in 1985. The Arab image is one of somebody with millions As I mentioned, the October 11 bombing in of oil wells, with thousands and thousands of Santa Ana, California, took the life of Alex Odeh, excesses, never as the people we know who are a peace activist, a father of three young children Arab Americans todaythe Ralph Naders of the who, unfortunately, was lost to us because he world, the people who are leading our commu- was a peace activist. There has been an ongoing nity, and our average people who are blue-collar investigation by the FBI since Alex's assassina- working-class people, as well. tion with the suspects, all of them U.S. citizens, Our community suffers from a type of media reportedly being harbored by Israel. However, scapegoating and distortion of imagery similar Israeli authorities have not yet cooperated with to that which is inappropriately and consistently the United States law enforcement agencies to vented on the Native American, the African return these suspects in order to bring the mat- American, American Jews, Asians, and others. ter to justice. This type of imagery is used to defame the eth- If there was one specific instance of remedy nicity and racial character of Arab Americans, as which I would call upon this hearing to address well as religious practices and moral precepts to for Arab Americans, it would be justice in the which many of our community subscribe. case of Alex Odeh. As you may recall, we did While Islam is not the sole religion of our testify several years ago before this very Com- community, it is the religion most often targeted mission on this issue. Unfortunately, this morn- for acts of violence and desecration. The bombing I received word from a reporter from the ings of mosques, attacks on visibly practicing Baltimore Sun in Jerusalem that one of the sus- Islam, and the ridicule of Muslim religious prac- pects in this case has been nominated to run for tices should not be condoned by this or any other the Knesset this morning. society. The inaccuracies and misinformation Certainly, we have to question whether the about Islam, and Arab Christianity for that mat- problems of the Arab American community are ter, are rampant in this nation's textbooks, on unique to a particular sector of American society, our campuses, in seminar rooms, in classrooms, or whether the attacks on our community are as well as in the media and government. They do somehow related to an overall systemic failure to not speak well of our society and they auger ill overcome the social and economic disparity, the for future generations for whom America is now prejudice, discrimination, and violence endemic preparing leadership. in our daily life. Are the reverberations felt in I might add at this point that this is not an the Arab American community generated from indictment against American society alone. We the same residues of neglect and trauma that have seen this throughout history. That does not characterize the life of the Nation? Are there mean we can't deal with it head on. Just this symptoms, root causes, inappropriate remedies morning's Washington Post noted that there in place that we can define, delineate, and begin were problems of second generation Arabs living to correct that may lead to new approaches of in Europe, and in particular, France. During the redress and reconstruction? Gulf crisis we saw things that we would never It is our contention that several avenues must have seen anywhere else, in particular market- be addressed both in our community and in soci- ing techniques such as Shi'ite toilet paper. You ety at large to meet the crisis of the moment and would have never seen Jewish toilet paper or to prevent problems in the future. Among these I Christian toilet paper, and you shouldn't have, suggest the few following and I would say I probably would endorse most of the others that I had

59 65 heard this morning which were very,very use as much time as you like and if you're not thoughtful and probing. One, we must deviseso- ready I'll let somebody else go. lutions to our national experience of alienation COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Let me ask agen- and social inequality. These solutions must be eral question for any members of the panel,es- grounded in the reconstruction of our nation's pecially Chairman Flemming. We had two differ- economy and the political lives of American ent panels here this morning, and each panel workers and their families, strengthened by gov- seemed to have a very different message. Can ernmental and private sector support, rather you help us try to relate what was being said than weakened by poverty and institutionalized during panel one with much of what's been said neglect, institutionalized racism, negative ste- in this panel? reotyping, bigotry, and violence, whether they be CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Was anyone here in government, media, corporate America, or that heard the first panel that would like tore- other sectors of society. I should also add, during spond to that, please? This is your chance, John. the Gulf War, many people in politics came to COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. You already said our aidNorm Mineta, in particular, a member you heard the first panel. of Congress, somebody who was incarcerated MR. KAMASAKI. Yeah, I guess that was a mis- during World War II because of his ethnicity, be- take. I heard the first panel arguing passion- cause he was Japanese American, came to our ately and, I think, correctly that as a nation, we aidas did many of the Hispanic, Africanhave ignored and neglected the discrimination American, Asian groups, others who are here and poverty, principally in the African American with us today, and I am very grateful to them. community and principally over the last 10 However, we were very dismayed to hear many years. I don't find that at all inconsistent with of the politicians who made anti-Arab jokes dur- what I believe is an equally important point ing that period and the Marine Commandant that civil rights issues are no longer just black who made a very offensive joke the very same and white issues. And I must believe, being in week that the first Arab American died in de- the civil rights business, that there has to be a fense of the United States during Desert Storm. way of accommodating and addressing both of We must begin to teach the teachers about the those messages simultaneously. benefits of the cultural diversity of this great CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Esther? nation and ensure that today's children grow to COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. I pass. be the tolerant and progressive leaders of tomor- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You pass. All right. row. I would also add that we need hate crime COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Well, I am not going legislation. We must begin a dialogue within and to pass because this is a very important time, across all of the multivariant and multiethnic and I think that the perspectives brought by the sectors of the society in order to diffuse existing panelists are at the center of how we look at the tensions and instill mutual understanding and next 100 years, how we look at the next 50 tolerance. years, how we look at the next 20 years. We Finally, we must assure that this Commission heard this morning a statistic that by the year takes advantage of all who testify before it today, 2050, half the population of this country will be and those who are unable to be heard, by con- made up of people who are members of what vening a national task force to fully address the today we call minority groups. We had the asser- problems at hand and to work for long-term so- tion that that may not be the case because some lutions. To conduct hearings is commendable; to may pass, as time goes by, into other classifica- follow up and make real change is required. tions. I think we also had a refocusing of the Thank you for providing me the opportunity to current problem as embedded in the historical present these views and perspectives on the seri- institutional practices of discrimination between ous civil and human rights issues confronting us groups and the persistence of those historical all. practices both at the institutional and the collec- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very tive cultural levels. much. Carl will start the questioning first and But here we have a group of individuals who have cometothisappropriately,Ithink,

60 66 bringing group-specific views, and the question In the early 1930s they had 80,000 in this really becomes how do we put it all together? We agency. They decided, because of computers, that have the historical discrimination which, con- there should be some downgrading. According to trary to what was said earlier, is one that has the GAO, they arbitrarily agreed on 21 percent; had its manifestation among most of the groups they reduced it to 63,000. I have all kinds of that are represented here on this panel. We have evidence, as a result of my own personal experi- the historical discrimination; we have the persis- ence, that it is a seriously understaffed agency. tence of that historical discrimination; we have When this administration submitted its budget new immigrants who are members, according to for 1993, it said that at the end of 1993 they race and ethnicity, of those populations that were budgeting for a backlog in disability cases were historically discriminated against who are of 1,400,000. It is just incomprehensible to me coming in to a different reality than the one that that an administration would ask the Congress those groups that had been here historically to maintain a backlog of 1.4 million. Today we've have experienced. How do we create a paradigm got 800,000; it's going rapidly to 1 million; and if for moving forward that puts these different we don't do anything, we will go beyond amil- groups at the center of our national concernand lion four. our national thinking so that we canthen re- As a result of that deficit and as a result of solve the persistent effects of historical discrimi- the strain on resources, they are not able to deal nation? effectively with representatives of various ethnic I guess I'd like to hear what you all have to groups who come before them with cases, not say about how we attend to the separate parts, commanding the English language and so on. and then how we create a whole from the sepa- They should have a great many persons on the rate parts, a whole that is just and a whole that staff who are capable of interpreting the various works for the society. languages, capable of working in the various DR. FLEMMING. Mr. Chairman, I can try to languages, but they haven't got that. I've visited addressthatquestionfromCommissioner offices where they have no one who understands Ramirez, a former colleague on the Commission the Spanish language, let alone the many Asian when I was here and who I appreciate very, very American languages that are at stake. much. I need to be specific about that. I stressed I am sure that a great many people are alleg- in my opening statement the lack of staff, the ing discrimination against ethnic groups in the lack of resources to carry out both the programs disability realm. There may be discrimination at that give right of access and the programs that various points, but the reason for their allega- give opportunity for access.I endeavored to tion of discrimination is that there is inadequate point out that when we go to the Hill, we're told staff. The present staff can't possibly handle the that our ideas are good, but where's the money backlog that exists. If we had more money in coming from? We can answer that question and this nation, we could focus on staff and provide we should answer it. If we don't answer it, we're adequate staff. not going to make any progress because we've I'll give you an illustration of the study that got plenty of proof. the Congressional Budget Office just made Let me give an illustration. For the last 2 drawing on Census Bureau and IRS [Internal years I have shared this Chair with a committee Revenue Service] data. They studied the after of experts for the Supplemental Income Security tax income of households from 1977 to 1989, and Income Program. In connection with that I've they discovered that, as far as the upper 1 per- visited local offices in the 10 regions; I've met cent is concerned, their after tax income doubled particularly with the claims people who have to from 1977 to 1989. They've also discovered that deal with these specific cases. We're about to in that 1 percent is 60 to 70 percent of the in- make a report, but one of the things that we're creased work during that period of time. The going to say in itone of the recommendations middle class, middle fifth, only experienced an we're going to makeis that we take a major increase of 41/2 to 6 percent, and the lower class step in the direction of dealing with an under- experienced a decline of 9.1 percent during that staffed agency. same period of time.

61 67 We are a nation where the richare getting urban neighborhoods. Then the entiresavings richer and the poor are getting poorer. We will and loan industry disinvested all of America. So have all kinds of discrimination under thosecon- the issue is not simply being on the Hill. While ditions because we do not equip ourselves to deal that's important, the fact is thatwe don't have with the problems adequately. Wecan have fine the connection mechanisms betweenpersons ideas, but we will present them to the Congress who are systematically involved and theconse- and the Congress will say that's a fine idea. quences of the system that has pitted people Where do we get the money? Well, we've got,as against each other. As you diminish government advocates, to be in a position where wecan an- efficiencythe entire Senior Executive Service, swer that question, and where we can challenge my understanding of that situation is that it is them to get the money from some certainsource. gone, it began to crumble 12 years gowithout I feel that only as we get adequately staffed that sort of competency you havea self-fulfilling can we possibly get the kind of integration that spiral of despair and that is a very, very serious you were talking about. It seems to me that we systemic issue. have to be staffed to deal with individualcases, Civil rights began with a particular set ofcon- deal with them thoroughly, and that out of that cerns, but, at bottom, civil rights in the broader will grow a pattern of not discrimination but sense mean the basic sorts of things that are nondiscrimination. But we've got to have the part of participating in governing yourself. We staff resources to deal with individual situations are squandering that. on an individual basis. That's just one illustra- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. While you're at it, tion. I think the situation in the Social Security would you speak for just a moment onyour per- Administration represents a real possibility ofa ception of the Community Reinvestment Act and break down in the governmental process simply the roles that the financial services industrycan because of the fact that we have agroup of peo- play with regard to it? ple who are trying to deal with it and find it MR. KROMKOWSKI. It is an absolutelyessen- absolutely impossible to deal with. tial piece of it, piece of regulatory power for the MR. KROMKOWSKI. It seems to me that the Comptroller of the Currency. That is still nota scenario also feeds on itself. That is, when the vigorously enforced aspect of our strategy for process begins to break down, then the ideologi- making the distribution of capital more equita- cal dimensions that the governmentnever ble in this country. That's one mechanism. But worked anyway get kicked in. When that hap- the fact is that without creating the capacity pens the cycle of disconnectedness, of paralysis, where people at the community level are able to of alienation becomes deeper so that at bottom use capital, one comes up with bizarre kinds of the question is how do we, in fact, recapture the circumstancesa pledge by a major interna- sense that we must govern each other and that tional bank for billions of dollars of investment governing the resources of the Nation is part of but no takers. Have you all heard that story be- the general sense of being a participant in the fore? shared sense of being an American citizen. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. If I may, Mr. Chair- There is a profound sense among people in man? urban life, with 78 people on the Hill who have CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Please do. urban constituencies, that this is an utterly im- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. I think this is a very potent group of persons to, in fact, move a na- important discussion and maybe our last chance tional agenda. Thirty-five years ago therewere to have it. As I look back over the last 25 years probably 150 urban people, andevery Senator at Model Cities, at urban renewal, at Commu- was interested in an urban agenda because of nity Development Block Grants, at all of those urban political power that, in fact, drewgovern- programs that sought to revitalize in some way ment closer to people to provide what people de- either a downtown or an inner-cityarea, I am cided was important. impressed by the consistency with which the Today, we are in the hangover ofa period of poor in communities themselves have been con- deregulation. We were concerned, at the begin- sistently left out of participation in any of those ning of that period, about the reinvestment in programs. At the moment at which that specter

62 68 of big Federal money comes into play, you COMMISSIONER BERRY. Well, I was going to let haveI call it the tight circle of financial inter- him answer that first. ests that are there to take advantage of that. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Okay. Answer that. And what you have as a result of that, I am MR. KROMKOWSKI. I agree entirely that this sorry to say, is evidence of waste that far sur- model is certainly a major effort in this regard. passes, in my view, the waste that we have seen There is absolutely no doubt that community in what are called the traditional social pro- ownership of housingthe communitydevel- grams. I am very concerned that the focus oped housing projectsare perhaps the only way strictly on economics of rebuilding Los Angeles of assuring that low- and moderate-income peo- or rebuilding any other urban center will lead us ple do have housing that they can participate in, down that path again and that 10 years from and that, in fact, these programs have not had now not only will we see failure, but we will see the kind-of national support that they deserve at waste equalling that of the S&Ls and equalling any point, with very modest activity during the that of the HUD scandal and a number of other neighborhood self-help days. programs. I would like to hear your views on Even today with the Neighborhood Demon- that. stration Act, $2 million is generating, leveraging CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Please do. Chair- hundreds of thousands of dollars. Those kinds of man Flemming, please do. activities are at the core of building cities and DR. FLEMMING. I was very much interested in building healthy coalitions among various popu- the idea that was presented for a neighborhood lations that make up the wonderful possibility of corporation. My mind went back to the days of diversity that urban life offers. But instead we 0E0 when we did emphasize the development of have beenneighborhood people and ethnic pop- neighborhood corporations. That idea has been ulations and communitieshave been pitted lost somewhat in the last 12 years, but the Ford against each other and manipulated by highway Foundation has a Local Initiative Support Cor- builders, by downtown projects that take out poration which is designed to revive this idea, neighborhoods, by the disinvestment of neigh- the Ford Foundation with various insurance borhoods, by the inability to buy insurance in companies and other foundations. They have a neighborhoods and, in fact, even by scholarship local branch here and a local program here in that invites us, that seduces us, to look at the Washington, D.C., of which I've been chairman big picture. for 8 or 10 years and we have been able to be of I mentioned creating a national institute that help to Marshall Heights here and to the H would look at and help people understand eth- Street Corporation and so on. We haven't made a nicity, the Geno C. Baroni Institute. When Geno dent as to certain other parts of the city, but I Baroni came to this town, he thought he was really believe that programs that emphasize the going to save the world. He ended up saying that neighborhood and the desire to get action at the it was just important to save one neighborhood, neighborhood level are very, very important. But one neighborhood at a time was the way you those programs have got to be supported. You've would attract and develop healthy cities. You got to have adequate resources, backup to make only, in fact, destroyed cities by allowing neigh- them work. I am sick and tired of the business of borhood deterioration to go unchecked. Often the saying that certain programs have failed and cause of that deterioration was systemic. It is a haven't worked when nobody has put adequate major strategy to depopulate areas, to deindus- resources in with those programs to make them trialize areas, to pit people against each other, work. It seems as though the people who are and in that wreckage we have the situation that criticizing them welcome the opportunity of criti- we're looking at today. cizing and fail to give them the adequate re- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you very sources that they need. much. -Let me yield to my colleague, Commis- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. We are pressed for sioner Berry, and then we will get back to me. time and my colleagues still have questions, per- COMMISSIONER BERRY. I had a few questions. haps you can have a chance to answer that. I'll try not to take up too much time. The first one is on this line of questioning that's going

63 69 on now about programs and funding programs. ing. You go to the Small Business Administra- My colleague, Commissioner Redenbaugh, just tion and you're denied because the Southwest whispered to me something that I was about to Asian, North African sector is neither Asian nor ask, so it's my question and his. African according to the government, so you're Isn't it true that there really isn't any consen- chopped right out of the process there. sus in this country to support the kinds of pro- The consensus building has to be done with gram initiatives you are talking about? We've the people in government in concert. I would been talking here about leadership, about Presi- hope that we could go forward after these 2 days dents, you know, Reagan, Bush, what's hap- and build that consensus by having another on- pened in the last 12 years. That's all true, but going set of meetings, perhaps in cities across when people were talking about doing something the United States, where people who are in the about Los Angeles, Newt Gingrich (R-GA) up on cities who are facing these problems could be the House floor the other day said, there was no part of the Commission's deliberations. constituency in rural and urban and suburban MR. HAILES. We certainly know that there is America to do anything about cities. no consensus, as there should be, for a commit- So isn't it really true that one of our problems ment to the kinds of dollars it's going to take to is that, while we all might think that these are rebuild, to restore, and to maintain the strong or some of us might think that these are all neighborhoods in the inner city. We shouldn't be things that need to be done, and I agree that surprised that, I think, 20 percent of the lenders they need to be done, that there just isn't any nationally who have the lowest ranking status consensus and our main problem is trying to fig- over the last 2 years under the Community Rein- ure out a way, on this Commission and other vestment Act are in Los Angeles. We're con- places, to generate a consensus to do something cerned about that. We're concerned that there's a about it. That's the first question I have and continuing scapegoating of minorities in inner then I have another one. Okay, anybody who cities that causes the lack of a consensus. People wants to address that. often state that too many dollars are going to the MR. MOKHIBER. Let me just offer this because urban centers, and for that reason, there is the we're going to the prior question as well. One statement you have generated by Newt Gingrich way to obtain that consensusand, I think and others. you're probably quite rightis to invite to hear- COMMISSIONER BERRY. What about the idea of ings such as this not only panelists of various dispersingtrying to disperseracial minorities organizations, but the people who are actually and ethnic minorities out of the cities? I read an involved, the people on the ground, and fill this article here, and somebody was proposing that beautiful auditorium with government bureau- what we need to do is, instead of concentrating crats, who ought to be hearing this absolutely on trying to do something about cities, let's fig- sparkling demonstration of insight. These are ure out some way to spread people out or have the people who .need to know. The consensus has metropolitan governments in some of these to have a consolidation of the government offi- places that will do something. Do you think that cials; there has to be some coordination amongst would be a solution? the various government agencies. MR. HAILES. I certainly think that would help. We talked earlier about Arab Americans pass- The NAACP has been engaged in litigation ef- ing into minority status and out of minority sta- forts to deal with residential requirements for tus. At the turn of the century, when many of our employment opportunities in the suburbs. We grandparents came here they were minorities believe that the beginning of job opportunities and they faced discrimination. When my genera- made available to minorities in the suburbs tion came around, it wasn't so bad. Now there's a could lead to residential integration at a later new influx of new immigrants from the Middle point. It starts with making jobs available to East, in my particular case, who are again facing those that are presently in the inner city, mak- it. So you see people thinking "the Lebanese, ing them available in the suburbs, and that will they've made it quite well, they don't need help." increase, I think, the dispersing of minorities So the Immigration Service isn't very forthcom- throughout the suburbs.

64 70 COMMISSIONER BERRY. My other question is a of people in our history, and that one of the somewhat touchier subject, but I am going to ask major issues today is how do we keep that ob- it anyway because I think it's important. It is scuring from happening again.Iask Mr. true, as Commissioner Anderson said, that the Kamasaki first if he would like to address any of earlier panel seemed to take one direction and that? this one seems to be taking a different direction, MR. KAMASAKI. I certainly can't address all of and I think that's inevitable because we have it. Let me try and address some of it in relatively people who are talking from different organiza- limited time. If the questionis, "are black- tions or perspectives. Hispanic tensions the principal problem facing But at least in the case of Mr. Kamasaki's Latinos?" I think clearly the answer is no. "Is it a testimony and to a lesser extent, Ms. Kwok's, I critically important one?" I think the answer is got the impression that the major problem is not yes, and I say that for several reasons. any tensions between whites and Hispanics, or One: we start from the notion that it will take, whites and Asians, but the major problem in the at a minimum, coalition, politics, and effective Hispanic community is tension between Hispan- coalition among minorities as a first step to get- ics and blacks and that everything is okay with ting a broader consensus in the rest of the coun- the Anglos. As I listened to the data that you cut try. What we are telling you is that the black- off, no problem. To a lesser extent I got that Hispanic coalition is one that is very fragile and impression from Ms. Kwok's testimony. very vulnerable and in serious trouble. I was noticing when you were testifying, Mr. Second: with respect to the question of obscur- Kamasaki, that the data I am familiar with indi- ing, I guess we have a difference on the merits cates that at the EEOC, for example, most of the with that paradigm. If the argument is that dis- backlogged complaints they have over there are crimination against blacks predated that against sex discrimination and age discrimination com- Hispanics, or that somehow Hispanics are a new plaints, not race discrimination complaints at population and, therefore, it is a new problem all. They're not about Hispanics or blacks. and it should wait in line, I think that the 25 That Job Training Partnership Actmost of percent of Mexican Americans who trace their the people who are in there are white, poorancestry back to before there was a United whites, then some blacks and other people, but States, and the Puerto Ricans in this country the way you were describing the programs and who became Americans by conquest in the early the college loans and grants programsPell 1900s, would dispute any notion that they are Grants, I know, are just about an entitlement---I somehow newcomers who do not have some orig- couldn't figure out what it was that blacks were inal stake in the question of race and ethnicity depriving Hispanics of that was this major issue, and discrimination. that was even more important than the Anglo- I think they would further argue, as some- Hispanic issue. Then I had another problem be- oneI think it was Ellis Cose who has written a cause I thought that some Hispanics were black. terrific book about immigration, but who I am That may be wrong, but I know some who say going to have to talk to latersaid something to that they are Hispanics who are black, and I the effect that with intermarriage and so forth wondered if they thought that blacks were their lots of immigrants, Hispanics and Asians, are major problem and whether I was drawing an going to be considered white. The point I would incomplete inference? make is, there may or may not be some of that My overall question for both of you is that the and they may or may not consider themselves earlier panel, particularly Professor Hacker, said whatever it is they consider themselvesa good that one of our major problems is not to obscure portion, by the way, of Hispanics check the other resolving the black-white problem in America as race category on the censusbut the point we we address the problems of different immigrant are trying to make is discrimination isn't just on groups who come, and that our history is that, in the basis of skin color. Even when you inter- the past, we have permitted that obscuring to marry you retain certain physical characteris- take place time and time again. He talked about tics; even when you intermarry the children of Irish people, Italians; he talked about all kinds those products, at least in half of the cases, are

65 71 going to have ethnic surnames. Frequently, they tions and policies emanating from whatamounts will retain other elements of their language and to a Latino-controlled city and municipalgovern- culture and speech accent and thosethe data ment. Some of my Cuban friends will be upset demonstrate, I think, without questionare the with me for saying it, but I thinksome of the bases for discrimination against Latinos and As- same things that we are saying that took place ians. in Washington, and that take placenow in Chi- On the last point with respect to whatare cago and New York and Houston and other blacks depriving Hispanics of, Iguess I wasn't places, we find taking place in Miami. The prob- being clear in what I was saying. We argue there lem is not the individuals or thegroups, it's that are two issues: One is that the continued exclu- we are somehow failing to act on the basis of our sive focus or principal focusperhaps the mirror principles. image of the obscuring problem that you're refer- It seems to us that it's hard to makea case to ring todenies understanding of, and therefore the larger American public that theseare im- support for, policies to address discrimination portant principles if, when we get into power,we faced by Latinos. don't act on those principles, but we act just like I think we make a second argument that everybody else. there is in the EEOCI do know the data well DR. FLEMMING. Commissioner Berry, if I could black complaints do constitute a plurality of go back to your original question which I inter- complaints. It is true that the majority of partici- pret is it possible to win a consensus? We don't pants and virtually also in the welfare programs have a consensus today. Is it possible to get one? are white, but it is also true that in at least the I feel that we are gradually getting a consensus programs that we have conducted analyses of that we must have additional revenues for do- where Hispanics are underrepresented, in most mestic programs. I think we're going to havea cases blacks are overrepresented in comparison domestic fund on the Hill, and then comes the to their proportion of the eligible population. question, "How are we going to use it?" Are we The point I would make is: We're not arguing going to be able to get a consensus on how to use that people are wrong or evil because they act it? It seems to me that at that point ethnic that way; we are saying they are unwise. When I groups should really unite and insist on the fact made a reference to returning to first principles, that additional revenues for domesticpurposes nobody has a problem with saying, well,every- be used to accomplish the kind of consensus that body ought to have equal opportunity andwe you are arguing for, if I interpret you correctly. ought to root out and fight discriminationno COMMISSIONER BERRY. Right. You do. I appre- matter who is the perpetrator and who it is per- ciate that, and you do interpret me right. In the petrated against. I think our problem is we have interest of time, I did want Ms. Kwok to answer, trouble acting on those principles and I would not just that, but I'll ask her another question, say that is not a racial question; that is all which is more important, given her testimony. I across the board. do understand Mr. Kamasaki's testimony, but I noted the example of Mount Pleasant in this much of it reminded me of people on campuses city and I was very troubled by some of thereac- where 90 percent of the money goes tosome- tion to the requests made by the Latino Civil thing that has nothing to do with blacks and Rights Task Force that seemed to suggest,sure, there will be a 10 percent program for African we would like to give you equal treatment and Americans or something. Instead of asking for equal services, but you know, you're going to some of the 90 percent, other groups say, why have to find a way to do it so that it doesn't don't we split it, you're getting 10 percent, why affect what the black community is getting. That don't we divvy that up. We need to getmore of doesn't sound like equality to me. that 10 percent. Really what they should be do- I would note, however, in fairness that this is ing is asking for more of the available pie. I am not just a black issue. We have a place in south sure he would agree with that. So that was the Florida called Miami where we have Latinos in point I was making in my questions. power, and where we have been very troubled by For Ms. Kwok, my last question is this. It is, many of the statements and sentiments and ac- indeed, true that some Asian Americansare a

66 72 model minority. That is factually correct on all of remediesthe closer to the neighborhood level, the measures that you mentioned in your testi- to the city level to the metropolitan levelthe mony. If that is true, why can't we highlight more able you are to get the crux of the particu- those who are a model minority and organize lar ethnic narrative that is used for particular some of what makes them a model minority so purposes, good purposes, sometimes misunder- that they might teach it to other people who are stood purposes. That's the tricky character of not and use them as an example. ethnic tradition: it's really a social invention, I understand the downside you're talking and we're all involved in it. about in doing that. But what is wrong with our Every community has the mechanisms for ar- highlighting those who are and simply saying, ticulating its sense of ethnicity and its proto- maybe you should try to have some of that rub types. We must know much more about that in a off on some people who are not a model minor- widescale fashion because it seems to me the ity? critique of multiculturalism that is being batted Ms. KWOK. Well, I think it's true that what around this country is precisely a critique that they can offer to the community and to the coun- will force us to keep from talking to each other try is very positive and we are being looked to in for fear of not really being an American, which I many ways: what are we doing right or how can think is one of the most insidious tactics of divi- other groups emulate what we have done? I siveness that has come down the road in the last think that in an overall context, the problems 5 years. that we do facethe part of the Asian American COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. We have about 3 community that does have those problemsget minutes in order to be able to finish on time. I forgotten about and they do not necessarily get would give Mr. Hai les an opportunity to respond the access to many of the social programs that and then our General Counsel has one quick last are available. question. I am sorry, our Staff Director has a Yes, we can highlight the successes of those question. that have made it and the driving force behind MR. HAILES. I would just like to interject a that, but I think we also cannot forget about the proposal that has been discussed fairly recently other half, too, and I think that, throughout the in a meeting between representatives of the country, a lot of that is being lost. NAACP and the Organization of Chinese Ameri- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Are there any other cans because, of course, we're interested in the questions? very question, Commissioner Berry, that you MR. KROMKOWSKI. Just a comment. I think raisedabout the model minority and the bene- that Ms. Kwok's response and your question sug- fits of looking at the model minority concept. We gests how complicated and how contextual the have proposed the possibility of a joint tutorial use of ethnic stories is. We have a very uncertain program that would highlight the successes, the record in understanding this kind of interethnic academic successes, of the Asian Americans and exchange. The way you use stereotype and proto- bring them together with members of the Afri- typepositive prototype, negative stereotypeis can American community. a way of telling the story. Every story, every nar- Of course, one obstacle would be the possibil- rative that comes out of an ethnic tradition has ity of stigmatization where all minorityAfrican some high points, has some virtues and also has Americanstudents don't do well, all Chinese some stories of oppression and exclusion, and Americans do well. But if we get representatives the question of balancing that within multi- of both the African American community and the ethnic reality is one of the great challenges for Chinese American community that are doing the cultural articulation of a multiethnic demo- well in school and then get those who aren't do- cratic policy. ing too well from both communities and have a We don't have the language of that, but I joint tutorial program, we think we could pro- think that every ethnic group can dialogue that mote academic success and the kind of cultural out with anyone else who wants to be involved. diversity that would be positive. The closer you are to home on working those out, COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you. Staff the honest to experience answer for particular Director?

67 73 MR. GONZALEZ. Yes. I think he just answered MR. KAMASAKI. Just briefly. I think that, by part of the question I was going to ask both Ed and large, the assumption is correct on some is- and Charles. When I was back in L.A. last week, sues, but maybe we're not totally there yet. I I realized as we went around to different com- would just refer back to a near walkout of the munitiesthe Korean community, the black National Council of LaRaza and MALDEF from community, the Latino communityand in the the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights over Latino you had a split because you had Latin a very important national issue. It wasn't a Americans and then you had Mexican Ameri- question of us not knowing each other; it was a cansin talking to leadership at SCLC, at the question of not agreeing with each other and Urban League, at MALDEF, at the Asian Multi- that I am not sure we can always address. cultural Center and so forth, everybody said, One thing I would say, I think the kind of look the problem with coalition doesn't exist at programs that are being discussed are right on the top. We all talk to each other. MALDEF has target. I think part of the answer is that people no problems in picking up the phone and calling aren't going to be convinced by reading the paper the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and calling the or watching TV. They're going to be convinced by Asian Pacific Legal Defense Fund and getting what actually happens in their own neighbor- people to rush over to talk about issues. The hoods. Until we get to the point where we have problem is how does that get filtered down to the Latinos and housing authorities affirmatively folks in the community because there is no coali- promoting good solid solutions for black and tion at the community level. Asian housing problems, and vice versa, and all So I was going to ask if both of you could talk the way around, and until we have African about some programs. Ed you just mentioned American civilrights enforcement folks who this tutorial program, and I am just wondering if make it a priority to go out and seek systemic not enough focus is being given to ensure that cases that happen to be affecting African Ameri- the folks in the community understand the so- cans or persons with disabilities or others for called coalition that exists at the top. that matter, then I think this notion of faction- MR. HAILES. That is a concern, and I wanted alization or fractionalization is going to be there. to emphasize that the meeting among our repre- The only point I am making is, if we truly sentatives was a recent one, and we've only be- argue that we are all part of one movement, then gun to see the need to have filtered down the we'd better begin acting that way. positive suggestions and the unified effort on the MR. MOICEIIBER. Can I just add? You wanted a national level to our local branches. We can do positive note in the last panel; let me give you that through the dissemination of information one now. Historically there's been a problem and the exchanges of mailing lists. which is not unknown to anyone here on foreign Often in communities we just don't know each policy issues between Arab Americans and Jew- other. I received a call not long after the L.A. ish Americans, but on civil rights issues we've situation from the president of the Organization found that we are, in fact, on one team. We've of Chinese Americans, who was in San Fran- brought these two communities together, as well cisco, and she wanted to join a program at a as other communities, on various legislation, on church that was going to deal with the issues. various lawsuits, one that went to the Supreme We were able to exchange information; she did Court in upholding the rights of both Arab not know the person in our local branch that was Americans and Jewish Americans to the protec- the president, but she knew me. I contacted our tions of the Civil Rights Act. We're even bridging local branch; they got together; they were on the the problems now between our communities on program together and I understand it was pretty foreign policy. positive. So we have to get the mailing list ex- Just last Sunday I spoke at a seminar with changed on a local level, begin the dialogue, and three Arab Americans and three Jewish Ameri- I think you'll begin to see many positive benefits cans in Rochester, New York, at a synagogue on from that exchange. the [Middle East] Peace Conference. I'll tell you, COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Charles, were you you can't get much more of a grassroots effort on going to answer that?

68 74 two groups that did not see eye-to-eye before mond, Virginia, some 2 years ago in which the than in ours. rising evidence of racial tensions in our commu- So I think there is some hope, but it has to be, nities became of great concern to the Commis- under the guise that Charles was saying, that sion. We have taken this amount of time to fash- we are in here, the world, the community, the ion a program of hearings that basically takes country is getting smaller; we need to be of one most of the resources of the Civil Rights Com- mind on most of these civil and human rights mission and focuses them on this issue. We an- issues, and I think there is hope for that. ticipate holding hearings in Chicago and in Los The money aspect, though, that the Commis- Angeles and a number of other cities. sioner mentioned cannot be absent from that Our aim is to put together an understanding equation. All the good hope, all the good will that of the changes and the developments in terms of we have, all the good plans, without the funding the quality of racial and ethnic relations in will fall flat. America's communities, particularly urban cen- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you very ters. With that, I would ask the General Counsel much. The General Counsel has deferred on her to invite the panelists to begin. question. I want to thank the panel for being with us. I have to say that's it's particularly plea- Hate Incidents Panel surable to see the former Chairman of the Com- MS.BOOKER. Thank you,Commissioner mission, Arthur Flemming, who has been an in- Ramirez. I would like to ask Mr. Ehrlich if you spiration to many of us in many ways in his would start by introducing yourself for the re- dedication to creating a government that works cord and then each of the panelists has been for people. But surely I want to thank all of the asked to speak for no more than 10 minutes be- panelists for being with us. Thank you very fore the Commissioners will ask questions. Mr. much. Ehrlich. DR. FLEMMING. May I say, Madam Chairman, I have deep appreciation for your services and Statement of Howard Ehrlich, Director of Commissioner Berry to this Commission over Research, National Institute Against Prejudice the years and also my deep appreciation for and Violence members of the career staff who have devoted MR. EHRLICH. My name is Howard J. Ehrlich. their lives to the work of the Commission. It I am the director of research for the National means a great deal to me to participate in the Institute Against Prejudice and Violence. Since hearing and to recognize that claim and contri- 1985 the National Institute Against Prejudice bution. and Violence has been studying ethnoviolence. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you. Through our own research and by our monitor- [Recess.] ing of the research and data collection of others, we are able to make some scientifically verifiable Afternoon Session, May 21, 1992 statements about the nature of ethnoviolent inci- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Ladies and gentle- dents, including the unique effects upon victims. men and members of the panel, we are delighted that you are here with us this afternoon. There are a number of significant dimensions I am Blandina Cardenas Ramirez, and I am that distinguish our research from the reports of presiding over this hearing in the temporary ab- others. First, most organizations merely collect sence of Chairman Arthur Fletcher. As the data based on newspaper reports or the self- Chairman mentioned this morning, this is the reporting of victims to a hotline, the community second in a series of hearings that the Commis- center, or other public agencies. Specialized law sion will hold throughout the country in urban enforcement units and some human relations centers to look at issues of poverty, inequality, commissions basically classify incidents which and discrimination, and their effect on racial have been reported to them. While much inter- and ethnic tensions in American communities. esting and sensitizing data have been accumu- The Commission decided to focus on racial lated by these agencies, it is important to recog- and ethnic tensions after a retreat held in Rich- nize that their reports are based on uncontrolled

69 75 forms of reporting, which are likely to be biased tidimensional. Insofar as we are ultimately in- in a number of ways. Not the least of theseways terested in reducing prejudice and changing be- is the factor of self-selected reporting. havior, we cannot allow ourselves to be mislead My estimate is that at least three-quarters ofby bureaucratic and scientifically uninformed la- all ethnoviolent incidents are never reported to bels such as hate crimes. The Commission and any public agency or designated officials in the news media should also be aware that the schools or workplaces. In one study the research- terms `hate crimes" and "bias incidents" serve ers noted that 90 percent of the victim popula- another purpose. They understate the meaning tion had not reported the incident. Obviously of the behavior they label. We are, in reality, any generalization based on such data can be, talking about psychological and physical forms and has been, seriously misleading. of violence. This form of violence is unique in at Further, reports based on these opportunistic least two aspects. First, it is motivated by group and nonscientific samples typically understate prejudice, and second, because of its roots in the levels of ethnoviolence, while at the same prejudice, it has a stronger impact on the, per- time introducing uncontrolled bias into their sons victimized than violence based on other mo- data. It is imperative that human relations poli- tives. For these reasons we have labeled this cies be grounded in research that conforms to phenomenon ethnoviolence. accepted standards of scientific rigor. Ethnoviolent incidents range across many A second dimension that distinguishes the forms of violent behavior from acts of psychologi- work of the institute is our requirement that cal intimidation which include telephone harass- good policy research must be grounded in the ment and face-to-face verbal abuse through sociological understanding of intergroup rela- property defacement and physical assaults. tions, as well as in a social psychology of preju- What do we know about ethnoviolent inci- dice. Let me illustrate the critical meaning of dents? Here are some of the facts. All of these this by pointing to the way in which sociologi- statements are based on the research programs cally unsupported assumptions have been built of the National Institute Against Prejudice and into many discussions of the issues, as well as Violence, which include a national sample of into data collection and analysis. black and white adults, a series of college cam- Take, for example, the term "hate crime." To pus case studies, and a series of studies of work- begin with, most of the events which entail the place incidents, as well as being based on other violent expression of prejudice are not crimes. If scientifically sound studies. one were to collect or analyze data which only What is the extent? First, the lowest most encompassed such crimes, the results would be conservative estimate is 10 percent. That is, 10 seriously misleading. More critical is the issue of percent of the adult population are victims of an hate. To apply the term here is to assume that ethnoviolent assault during any 12-month pe- the actor is motivated by a strong emotional re- riod. The upper limits of estimates based on case sponse. While it is true that all attitudes have studies conducted by the National Urban League an emotional component, it is not true that prej- in Baltimore and Richmond, are 25 to 30 per- udice, as a particular form of an attitude, is pri- cent. The figure of 25 percent is also the modal marily based on the emotional response of ha- figure for case studies on college campuses. tred. Furthermore, not all prejudice involves Moreover, my impressions from the institute's strong emotions. Consider for example, that the workplace case study now in progress is that the white supremacists producing racist propaganda incidence of ethnoviolence in the workplace ex- may be acting in a calculated and nonemotional ceeds 25 percent, particularly when you include way. The white homeowner attacking black new- acts against disabled workers, abusive behavior comers to the neighborhood may be acting out of towards older workers, and sometimes even fear, not hatred, and the teenagers assaulting a younger, and women who are systematically sub- gay man may be acting in conformity with group jected to patterns of abuse deriving clearly from' norms. gender prejudice. Although there are several fac- The point of this seeming digression is to em- tors which affect the incidence of ethnoviolence phasize the fact that prejudiced behavior is mul- in a community, a campus, or a workplace, the

70 76 preponderance of evidence suggests a rate of 20 cates that at least half of all ethnoviolent inci- to 25 percent. That means one out of every four dents are committed covertly. Even in the con- or five adult Americans is harassed, intimidated, fines, of a workplace, one-third of the victims of insulted, or assaulted for reasons of prejudice ethnoviolence did not know their assailant while during the course of the year. an additional 10 percent had not seen them be- The city of Los Angeles in flames may be a fore the incident. Generalizing about the charac- genuine media spectacle, but it is the everyday teristics of perpetrators on the basis of those character of ethnoviolence that is the unspectac- who were observed or apprehended will be mis- ular, but critical, underlying problem. Through leading. The number of social characteristics of silence, miseducation and denial, Americans perpetratorsverylikelyvariesbysetting have failed to recognize this underlying problem, whether we're talking about street incidents, while agencies such as this Commission have housing incidents, campus, workplace, and so failed to speak out vigorously about this routin- forth, and also by target, whether we're talking ization of ethnoviolence in everyday behavior. about anti-Jewish acts, antigay acts, antiblack What is the effect of ethnoviolence on its vic- acts, etc. tims? The institute's national study of victimiza- Five. Reporting the incidents. Who reports tion indicates that people who are psychologi- their victimization to the police or human rela- callyorphysically attacked for reasonsof tions commissions or workplace supervisors or prejudice suffer more than people who are vic- school officials? The answer is practically no one. tims of similar attacks based on different The nonreporting figures areextraordinary, motives. Using the measure of 35 symptoms ofranging from 80 to 90 percent of victims. There posttraumatic stress, we observed that white, may be slightly more people reporting incidents black, and Hispanic victims of ethnoviolent which occur in public neighborhood settings as incidents displayed significantly more psycho- compared to schools, workplaces, or other closed physiological symptoms than did persons victim- institutions. There's a complex set of reasons for ized for other motives. The effects of victimiza- nonreporting. The primary set of reasons has to tion can include financial as well as physical do with the denial of the significance of the eth- costs, but the psychic trauma experienced by vic- noviolent incident by the victim him or herself. tims of ethnoviolence is often severe and long Secondarily, people believe that authorities will lasting. When the incident occurs in the work- not do anything or cannot do anything of conse- place or on campus, almost one out of every quence. three victims report that it has disrupted their Finally, many people are afraid of retaliation interpersonal relations and their work produc- or other consequences of reporting. For example, tivity. in our national survey we found that persons Three. Victimization is more than a matter ofvictimized at work are less likely to report the counting bodies. Every person victimized has incident if they believed it was motivated by family and friends, and every active victimiza- prejudice than if they believed it was motivated tion either has direct witnesses or people who for some other reasons. There is further evidence heard about it from the victim or others. Many of to suggest that white victims of ethnoviolence these people are also victims. We call them co- are more likely to report the incident than are victims. They are disturbed, angry, anxious, black victims. If I may have a half minute more sometimes frightened. Like those who are direct- to summarize? ly victimized, covictims may report disruption in COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. A half minute, sir. their normal routines of everyday behavior. We MR. EHRLICH. What we need clearly is a na- have no exact estimate of covictim rates, but we tional survey of sufficient scope so that we can do know from our survey that 62 percent of our establish a baseline by which to assess the inci- sample knew about the victimization of someone dence and prevalence of ethnoviolence, as well close to them. as the personal and social costs of ethnoviolent Four. Who are the perpetrators of ethnovio- victimization. The National Institute Against lent acts? We know very little about perpetra- Prejudice and Violence is prepared to do such a tors. My reading of the available evidence indi- survey, but the estimated cost of that one project

BEST COPY AVAILABLE 71 77 is half a million dollars, and it exceeds the scope conciliation, outreach, and immigration and ref- of a small nonprofit such as the institute. So I ugee affairs liaison activities. would like to call upon the members of the In providing conciliationservices, we use Commission to assist us in procuring that kind three techniques: mediation, technicalassis- of funding if you agree with me that this is a tance, and training to facilitate resolution of con- worthwhile enterprise. Finally, I believe that the flict. Our outreach and refugee affairs liaison ac- single most strategic approach for this Commis- tivities are designed to help local communities sion, given its charter as a factfinding body, is to and State agencies establish and improve their help the American people break free of the own mechanisms for anticipating, preventing, norms of denial and the culture of silence that and resolving tensions or disputes. have characterized intergroup relations in the It is important to remember that our respon- United States throughout our history. Thank you sibility is to resolve racial conflict that may dis- very much. rupt a community when a hate crime has oc- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, sir. curred. We do not have the jurisdiction to MS. BOOKER. Ms. Hughes. investigate or prosecute such crimes. These are for other law enforcement organizations. What Statement of Grace Flores Hughes, Director, the Community Relations Service does is ad- Community Relations Service, dress the communitywide racial or ethnic ten- U.S. Department of Justice sion that may result from an incident. MS. HUGHES. Good afternoon, Madam Acting Through our training and outreach services, Chair. My name is Grace Flores Hughes and I we also assist communities in preventing or am the Director of the Community Relations averting racial or ethnic conflict. Our effective- Service of the Department of Justice. I am ness in our work is measured by our ability to pleased to be here this afternoon among friends offer our services as a third party neutral in any and acquaintances. The U.S. Commission on case or conflict. CRS does not make any determi- Civil Rights and the Community Relations Ser- nation as to the actions of the parties in conflict. vice have always had a professional relationship What we attempt to do is bring those parties in of shared concerns and effort. dispute together, so that they may address their The CRS is in its 28th year of providing ser- conflict in a peaceful manner, and so that their vices to this country and is responsible for two actions may reduce the possibility of increased major programs. One is our conflict resolution tension or even violence. program which addresses CRS's initial legisla- It is the ability to be seen as a neutral player, tive mandate. Under Title 10 of the Civil Rights offering assistance to the groups or individuals Act of 1964, Congress mandated that CRS pro- in conflict, that allows us to be so effective. A vide assistance to communities and persons critical aspect of this neutrality is CRS's confi- therein in resolving disputes, difficulties, and dentiality clause. This clause, which is written disagreements arising from discriminatory prac- in our legislative mandate with criminal penal- tices based on race, color, or national origin. ties, forbids CRS staff from commenting upon CRS does not investigate or enforce the law. certain aspects of a case unless the parties them- Rather our job is to help reweave the fragile so- selves agree to making that information public. cial fabric that often is torn or unravels in a This clause requires CRS to resolve disputes in community after the occurrence of a hate inci- confidence and without publicity. Thus conversa- dent. Our neutral conflict resolution services tions with community leaders, law enforcement assist communities in achieving peaceful and officials, or elected representatives will be held voluntary resolution of racial and ethnic con- in close confidence. It is because of this, I must flicts, including conflicts that may arise out of say, that I will not be able to comment specific- hate incidents. CRS offers this service to com- ally on some CRS activities. munities in conflict upon its own motion, at the In fiscal year 1991, CRS filed 4,290 alerts of request of local authorities or representatives of potential communitywide racial conflict nation- commuity-based organizations, or by court refer- wide. Of these, 287 arose out of incidents of our ral. We have three conflict resolution services:

72 78 perception of an occurrence of a hate crime. This agreement that included changes in the police is the highest number in the past 3 years. department policy on training to give responses In FY 1990 I initiated a nationwide toll-free to hate crimes a higher priority, in threatened number to receive calls from anyone in the coun- boycotts of businesses and schools, and the es- try who was the victim of or aware of hate vio- tablishment of a multiracial human relations lence. This hotline increased our alerts by 75 committee to develop support programs for the percent over previous fiscal years. During FY victims of hate crimes. As a result of this, and 1993, I will establish a centralized alerts desk similar cases in the Northwest, CRS helped es- office in the headquarters to further enhance our tablish a four-State coalition against malicious ability to receive and record as many potential harassment that provides a process through race conflicts in the country as we can. This ca- which State and local law enforcement officials pability is essential to our ability to be aware of and local community leaders can cooperate in and respond to as many conflicts as we can and the development of regional and statewide pro- to distribute our resources in the most appropri- grams to respond to incidents of hate violence. ate manner. This model has been reproduced in 16 States. Let me describe anexample,of our case work The number of CRS activities involved in inci- in this area. Due to our statutory requirement to dents related to hate activity increased from 176 work in confidence, I will not identify the loca- in 1989 to 192 in 1990 and to 287 in 1991. tion or parties to this case. In a moderate-size CRS assists communitiestoprepare for city, a cross was burned on the lawn of a minor- marches by hate groups or other scheduled dem- ity family. The family reported the incident to onstrations. For example, we assist local civic the police and notified the local chapter of a na- officials and community leaders in how they may tional minority organization. The initial police respond to these type of rallies or demonstra- investigation was perceived as cursory by the tions. We stress the need for such coordinated minority community, and protests against the activity as self-marshalling units, defined dem- police department were organized by the na- onstration areas, and clear lines of communica- tional minority organization. They demanded tions to minimize the potential for violence more training for police officers in recognizing between the hate groups, any counterdemon- and responding to hate crimes. This group urged strations, or the police. citizens not to cooperate with or support police CRS also provides technical assistance to po- activities until changes were made in the depart- lice departments across the country on how to ment's approach to hate crimes. respond to increased communitywide tension Minority leadership in the community also that may result from a hate incident taking complained, through local media, that the major- place in their community. Our role is not to as- ity of citizens in the community had not given sist in the investigation or enforcement of any adequate support and empathy to the victims of particular statute. Rather, we work with the po- the cross burning. As a result, boycotts by minor- lice departments and community groups to com- ity residents of businesses and schools were municate and coordinate these activities among threatened. The Northwest Regional Office was the organizations so as not to aggravate what alerted to the racial conflict arising out of this may already be a volatile situation. hate crime incident by a contact from a previous If, however, a hate incident does occur in the case worked in the city. An assessment was con- community, and there is a swift and determined ducted to determine CRS jurisdiction, and a con- response by the local authorities to the incident, ciliation specialist was dispatched to the site. often there is no increased communitywide ra- The conciliation specialist immediately inter- cial tension as a result of the incident; thus viewed the minority leadership, the police chief, there's no need for CRS services. On a national the mayor and other city officials and leaders in level and in a proactive approach as part of our the business community and school officials to outreach services, CRS participates in dialogues determine all the issues in conflict. He convened across the country where participants represent- all the parties in mediation sessions as soon as ing all racial and ethnic groups come together possible to facilitate negotiations towards an under our auspices to agree to plans for their

73 79 communities on how they will respond in a posi- on the streets of Los Angeles after the jury ver- tive way to hate incidents. This response may be dict will not happen in their communities. support for victims of hate incidents, a system This increased public awareness and concern for the law enforcement officials to address, if has certainly raised expectations for those gov- possible, increased community tensions follow- ernment officials charged with confronting these ing an incident, or developing lines of communi- tough problems and served to underline the crit- cations among community and local officials. ical importance of initiatives to promote en- These dialogues help communities learn from hanced police-community cooperation. The na- other communities around the country that have tionalspotlight, however, also presents new planned appropriately to prevent the unravel- opportunities to promote enhanced relations be- ling of relationships following a hate incident. In tween law enforcement agencies and community addition, in order to assist the Nation in pre- groups, and provides a very useful context for venting and resolving racial conflict associated our panel on effective responses to hate violence. with hate activities, CRS has joined forces with The Anti-Defamation League regards combat- the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, ing prejudice and bigotry as one of its highest the National Institute Against Prejudice and Vi- priorities. We take great pride in the educational olence, and the Uniform Crime Reports Section and legal initiatives we have created, most nota- of the FBI in various programs aimed at ad- bly, our award-winning, "A World of Difference" dressing hate activities. We find our combined campaign and our model "hate crimes legisla- efforts extremely beneficial and look forward to tion." Over 30 States have now enacted hate continuing those efforts. crimes laws based on our or similar to ADL's COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you very model. much. When prejudice leads to criminal conduct, as Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Hordes. it all too often does, headlines result and communities are set on edge. The upsurge in hate Statement of Jess Hordes, Washington incidents and hate crimes in recent years is most Director, Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith troubling. ADL, which has kept statistics on MR. HORDES. Madam Chairman, members of anti-Semitic incidents for more than a decade, the Commission, my name is Jess Hordes. I am has noted an increase in the number of such the Washington director of the Anti-Defamation incidents in each of the last 5 years. Our 1991 League of B'nai B'rith. I appreciate the opportu- audit of anti-Semitic incidents revealed 1,879 nity to appear before you today and commend separate incidents of vandalism, violence, or ha- this Commission for the leadership role it has rassment, an 11 percent increase over 1990. taken in addressing the problem of ethnic ten- The 1991 audit also included record totals for sions in this country and exploring ways to pro- anti-Semitic arsons, bombings, and cemetery mote mutual tolerance and respect. Throughout desecrations, and the highest number of anti-Se- the past decade, this Commission has repeatedly mitic incidents we have ever recorded in 1 year focused public attention on the devastating im- on American college campuses. While we do not pact prejudice and discrimination have had on keep statistics on other types of bias incidents, our diverse and pluralistic society. all of the available evidenceand we've already In recent weeks, most especiallyin Losheard some todayseems to suggest that inci- Angeles, that devastating impact has become dents of bias against other Americans, including painfully obvious to all Americans. The violence African Americans, Asian Americans, and gays on the streets of Los Angeles following the an- and lesbians, have also been on the rise. nouncement of the jury's verdict in the Rodney We recognize that prejudice and hatred can- King police brutality case has riveted the Na- not be legislated out of existence. Nevertheless, tion's attention to race relations and raised con- hate crimes laws have proven to be useful tools cerns about our criminal justice system. Citizens for law enforcement agencies seeking to respond are now looking to public officials and law en- to this growing problem. Such laws, which typi- forcement executives for assurances that what callyprovidefor enhanced punishment for happened to Rodney King and what happened crimes motivated by bias, also demonstrate the

74 80 depth of this society's concern. They offer an im- under increased police scrutiny, the ability to an- portant measure of comfort to targeted groups, ticipate an act proactively to prevent new crimes which often feel vulnerable in the wake of a hate will improve. Over time, the deterrence factor crime, especially when that crime has the poten- can also be expected to increase. Studies indicate tial to polarize an entire city and cause wide- that victims will also be more likely to report spread tension and violence. hate crimes, thereby generating more attention In our work in this area, in addition to focus- and improving victim services. ing on media exposure, education, and more ef- Once statistics on hate crimes become more fective law enforcement, ADL has made the en- readily available, this Commission can play an actment of legislation to collect data on hate important role in interpreting them and in shap- crimes a high priority. Not only do statistics on ing a national response. While there are already hate crimes equip our leaders at the Federal, many quality resources available, including pro- State, and local levels with the information they grams and publications produced by such orga- need to allocate their resources appropriately in nizations as the International Association of response to hate crimes, the collection of such Chiefs of Police, the National Organization of data also provides the impetus for law enforce- Black Law Enforcement Officials, and ADL, the ment officers to learn how to identify and re- crisis situation we are confronting can only ben- spond to such crimes in the most effective way. efit from the kind of attention and action this Law enforcement's response is crucial to avoid Commission is capable of generating. Thank you further explosions of urban violence. For this very much. reason this panel's focus on effective responses COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, sir. to hate violence is most welcome. Ever since the Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Welch. Federal Hate Crime Statistics Act mandating the Justice Department toacquire data on Statement of Danny Welch, Director, Klanwatch crimes which manifest prejudice based on race, MR. WELCH. I am Danny Welch. I am the di- religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity became rector of Klanwatch, which is a special project of law, its sponsors and supporters, including ADL, the Southern Poverty Law Center located in have been seeking forums such as this to under- Montgomery, Alabama. score the value of this act and the critical im- Compared with the overwhelming problems portance we attachtoitseffectiveimple- associated with the illegal drug epidemic and mentation. gang-related violence, hate crimes may have To its credit, the FBI has taken its new re- seemed relatively insignificant. But even inci- sponsibility to collect data on hate crimes quite dents that don't involve violence such as harass- seriously. We welcome the FBI's decision to in- ment and vandalism have the potential to dis- corporate questions on hate crimes into its Uni- rupt entire communities and spark violence. I form Crime reporting program, and commend would think with the recent events in Los the Bureau's efforts to reach out to those with Angeles, our public officials and citizens will put expertise in this area, including ADL, and to a greater emphasis on this serious crime, which provide training on identifying and responding targets people because of their race, religion, to hate crimes to both its own agents and to ethnic background, and sexual orientation. other law enforcement officials. ADL and other Hate crime has escalated dramatically over human relations groups were involved in devel- the past 2 years. I'll give you just one or two oping the Bureau's training manual and data examples. Hate crime in Oregon, for instance, collection guidelines, and the finished products increased 60 percentand this is all 1991 fig- reflect that input. They are well-crafted, inclu- ures-60 percent in the first 6 months of 1991. sive, and should be a useful resource for law An ADL report mentions there was an 11 per- enforcement agencies nationwide. cent increase in anti-Semitic crimes in 1991. If it works as intended, the Hate Crimes Sta- Last year in New York City, or in New York, tistics Act should also encourage the establish- police reported 1,110 hate-motivated attacks ment of specifically focused police procedures for against blacks and Jews. A Harris poll conducted addressing hate violence. As such crimes come in 1990 noted that 57 percent of 1,865 high

75 81 school students surveyed had witnessed or heard Klanwatch, a project of the Southern Poverty about a racial incident, while 25 percent said Law Center, has been gathering evidence on the they had been targets of racial confrontation white supremacists groups and the white su- tinged with violence, and 4 of every 10 admitted premacy movement and developing trends in they held racial and religious prejudices. that movement since 1979. As part of our ongo- The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force ing law enforcement educational program, we PolicyInstitutedocumented1,822crimes publish a bimonthly report for approximately against gays and lesbians in five major cities: 6,000 law enforcement agencies around the New York, Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis-St. country to assist them in identifying and moni- Paul, and San Francisco. One alarming factor toring hate groups. was Minneapolis-St. Paul which reported gay As a matter of fact, last year we monitored bashing increased by an alarming 202 percent in and kept track of 346 groups that were active in 1991. Groups that have monitored hate crimes America in 1991. We have also been reporting for years through informal reporting procedures hate crimes in this same bimonthly publication have documented a significant rise in violence with the intention of encouraging police depart- motivated by bias, although complete and accu- ments to take these crimes seriously, and to sen- rate statistics will not be available until all sitize them to the traumatic experience a victim States and police agencies within those States of bias crime suffers. We have also used civil comply with the Hate Crime Statistics Act of litigationtoeffectively combat hate groups 1990. The act is one of the first steps toward whose members use violence against minorities. combating hate crime. However, as significant as We also feel that children must learn to accept it is, the Hate Crime Statistics Act only offers a and appreciate people of other races, cultures, partial answer to difficult questions raised by religious and ethnic backgrounds in order to be- hate crimes. come responsible and caring adults. We discov- First of all, the law is not backed by budget or ered that teachers did not have access to practi- a mandate for compliance. The Department of cal information on how to promote tolerance in Justice Uniform Crime Reports Section is re- their own diverse classrooms. It is the responsi- quired to collect data from the States, but the bility of school administrators to make teaching law does not require the States to provide it. tolerance part of their curriculum. Our educa- Participation is still voluntary and in 1991, I un- tional department at the Southern Poverty Law derstand, only 11 States provided hate crime Center has recently initiated the Teaching Toler- data to the FBI. ance Project designed to stop racial or ethnic Before implementation of the Hate Crime Sta- problems before they start. tistics Act and some subsequent training by the The program, founded in 1991, works to pro- FBI, many police agencies had no idea how fre- vide teachers of all grade levels with ideas and quently hate crimes occurred within their juris- resources for promoting interracial and inter- diction or even what constituted a hate crime. I cultural understanding in the classroom. Last venture to say that there are a lot of police de- year we provided, at no cost, 170,000 of our partments that still don't know how many hate semiannual magazine for teachers named Teach- crimes are committed in their jurisdictions. ing Thlerance, full of ideas and techniques to There is much to be done, including convincing help teachers establish a basis for racial and re- public officials and citizens that the problem of ligious harmony. We are currently developing a bias crime is not an isolated phenomenon. To curriculum package for schools to possibly in- make these convincing, we need detailed and clude a video and teacher's guide. accurate national data. We cannot think, how- In closing, I would like to say that hate crime ever, that State compliance with the Hate Crime and racism are on the verge of being epidemic in Statistics Act or strict hate crime laws will put this country, in our opinion. A few years ago hate an end to hate crime. The private sector of crime was literally a black and white issue, usu- America must also do their part in using other ally involving white perpetrators and black vic- avenues to aggressively address racism and ha- tims. Today, black-on-white crime is becoming tred. more common, and other contemporary conflicts

76 82 reflect the growing friction generated by increas- simple assault, burglary, larceny theft, motor ve- ing diversity in our society. For instance, riots hicle theft, arson, intimidation, and destruction, erupted in Brooklyn's Crown Heights neighbor- damage, or vandalism of property.It's been hood between Hasidic Jews and blacks. Long- pointed out already by another panelist that this time tensions between Korean grocers and black does not, of course, contain all hate incidents. customers in Los Angeles turned to violence in That is well to keep in mind. But it does contain 1991. Since 1989, 113 people have been wounded most that involve bodily injury or loss of prop- in the intense turf wars between Cambodians erty. The reporting to police by the victims of and Latinos in Long Beach, California. Ten peo- these crimes is yet another matter, and some- ple have died, including bystanders. thing that needs further addressing by groups Studies indicate that more than half of all such as these and by the Commission itself, per- crimes are committed by teenagers and young haps. adults under the age of 25, almost always acting The Attorney General tasked the FBI Uni- as informal groups. Some incidents are premedi- form Crime Reports Section with the develop- tated, but most are spontaneous, sparked by ment of a data collection for 16,000 voluntary chance conflicts with gays and lesbians or mem- law enforcement agency participants. The FBI, bers of other racial, religious, or ethnic groups, having anticipated the act's passage, had thor- and fueled by ignorance about people from dif- oughly studied the issue and determined that a ferent cultural backgrounds. new and different approach was necessary to be Political leaders representing all segments of successful in development and implementation society have a responsibility to speak out against of a national hate crime statistics program. racism and confront the hate crime problem, not It was first determined that the hate crimes just pay lipservice and cast blame. We should collection effort would be an adjunct to the UCR starting building a foundation of understanding collection. Hate crimes are not separate, distinct and brotherhood through progressive and effec- crimes, but rather traditional offenses that are tive programs. Our country needs strong leader- motivated by the offenders' bias. For example, ship and we need it immediately. an offender may commit an arson because of his COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you very or her racial bias. It was, therefore, not neces- much, Mr. Welch. sary to create a whole new crime category la- MS. BOOKER. Mr. Wilson. belled hate crimes. To the contrary, hate crime data would be collected by merely capturing Statement of Harper Wilson, Section Chief, additional information about crimes already un- Uniform Crime Reports Section, der the purview of the 60-plus-year-old system. Federal Bureau of Investigation With the cooperation and assistance of some MR. WILSON. Thank you. My name is Harper law enforcement agencies already involved in Wilson and I am the Chief of the Uniform Crime collecting and addressing hate crime informa- Reports Section at the FBI. Good afternoon. I tion, such as the Maryland State Police, the Bal- would like to say I appreciate the opportunity to timore County Police Department, the Boston appear before you and particularly in the com- Police Department, the New York City Police De- pany of such distinguished copanelists. partment, and the Chicago Police Department, I have a very, very brief statement since the and a most broad coalition of human interest panelists have covered basically the program groups, including the ADL, the institute, People that we are administering for the law enforce- for the American Way, the Community Relations ment community. As you know, Congress passed Service, and many, many others-25-plus-some the Hate Crimes Statistics Act in 1990. The act groupswe came together in the late summer of mandated that the Attorney General acquire 1990, and developed what is now known as the data concerning crimes that manifest evidence of Hate Crime Statistics Program. It is not an FBI prejudice based on race, ethnicity and national program; it is not a police or law enforcement origin, religion, or sexual orientation. program; it is a national societal program. The crimes that are being collected are homi- Included in the collection was information cide, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, about the types of prejudice motivating the

77 83 designated offenses, where hate crimes occur, resource needs, and do a better job of directing their victims, and information about the offend- available resources to the areas where they have ers. Reporting law enforcement agencies are of- the most effectiveness. Historically, law enforce- fered various means by which to report, either in ment has demonstrated progressive and profes- conjunction with their regular UCR submissions, sional confidence in developing imaginative ap- or separately in quarterly hate crime reports. proachestocriminalproblems.Withthis The FBI has conducted 14 regional training response to the hate crime legislation, law en- conferences nationwide for local law. enforce- forcement is showing that the same enthusiastic ment agencies regarding the investigation and and proactive attention can be applied, not only reporting of hate crimes. This training was con- to criminal problems, but to a societal scourge ducted in conjunction with other law enforce- that has even far more adverse consequences ment agencies, the Community Relations Ser- than most criminal problems, per se. vice, and many of the human interest groups Throughout the country the law enforcement that have been partners in this effort from the community is being applauded, and rightly so, I very beginning. believe, for its forthright addressing of this criti- The participants of these sessions represented cal issue. There is a saying that you hear today, each of the 50 States and the District of Colum- one of those that go around in schoolsyou may bia, including all law enforcement agencies that have heard your kids use itwhere he or she have populations of 100,000 people or more. This says, "they don't get it, they just don't get it." It covers 77 percent of the entire country's popula- means, I guess, to understand or to get the big tion. Training for Federal law enforcement agen- picture. I believe that law enforcement is contin- cies was also conducted. We have now begun re- uing to "get it." The leading newspaper in this ceiving submissions of hate crime data from city has an advertisement that says, "if you don't throughout the country. There are over 30 States get it, you don't get it." I believe law enforcement actually in 1991 which provided data on hate is understanding that if you don't get it, it may crimes, and that number is increasing very, very be the other way, you will get it. What you get rapidly. As with all national data collection ef- may not be a positive message. forts, however, participation must grow consider- We know here that we can't accomplish any- ably before valid nationwide assessments of a thing by talking or thinking; it requires doing; it hate crime problem can be made. requires action. I am pleased to report that the In the interim, theFBI,.the Bureau of Justice law enforcement community, with great assis- Statistics, and the Association of State UCR Pro- tance, is in the action of progressively doing grams are jointly preparing a resource book con- something about this issue. Thank you. taining available 1990 hate crime data from COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, Mr. Wil- States and local agencies operating hate crime son. We have an hour left for our discussion with programs that predated the Federal legislation. this panel, and there are four Commissioners This publication will also contain other informa- and two members of the staff here. I'd like to go tion relative to State-specific hate crime legisla- ahead and ask the Commissioners to try to keep tion and strategies. Future FBI publication to the 10-minute question period, and then, if we plans include an annual publication focused have time left over, we will go back around and solely on hate crime along with topical studies see if we can get a good discussion going here. highlighting unique aspects of the hate crime oc- Commissioner Anderson, would you begin the currences. questioning? While the Hate Crime Statistics Act expires COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Thank you. Ms. after 5 years, the FBI considers hate crime Hughes 'and Mr. Wilson, I would like to ask you statistics collection to be a permanent addition whether, in your judgment, the Korean Ameri- to the UCR effort. National hate crime statistics can merchants in Los Angeles, whose businesses will result in greater awareness and under- were burned and looted, whether they would be standing of the true dimensions of the problem considered victims of hate crimes? and will, in turn, result in further benefits. Law MS. HUGHES. Do you want to answer that? enforcement will be better able to quantify its

78 84 MR. WILSON. In my opinion, based on what I have to resolve right now, but in the future as know from CNN, and that's it, "yes" is the an- well. swer. COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Could I ask Mr. Ms. HUGHES. There is supposed to be, if I un- Wilsonyou said law enforcement is being derstand correctly, an investigation of those alle- applauded for forthrightly addressing this prob- gations, and I think that until that investigation lem of hate crimes around the country. I think, is carried out I would not be prepared to re- as we look at perhaps what's happened in Los spond. On the face of it, they claim that their Angeles recently, we would be surprised by that businesses were purposely attacked because statement on your part. Could you give us a lit- they were Korean. If that is, in fact, found to be tle bit more detail as to how you see police, law so, then that would be a "yes" to that answer, but enforcement in terms of prejudice and hate I think that there should be an investigation on crimes? that. MR. WILSON. Yes, I certainly understand the COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Could you tell us nature of your question. Certainly the Los Ange- in a general way what CRS is doing now in Los les experience does not point to a positive ap- Angeles? proach by law enforcement, but let's don't fall MS. HUGHES. In a very general way, we're into the same trap of judging all law enforce- there, is the answer. We had been there; we had ment by one incident involving a very few offi - been working with various coalition groups right cers. If there are any positive results from the after the beating of Rodney King. We did not Los Angeles experience, perhaps it will help in- wait until after the trial. We had already estab- crease the awareness of these issues among all lished relations with various coalition groups of law enforcement. there. Now we are not only working with those The basis for my statement, Commissioner, groups, but we're also working with other groups was based on what I've seen in our approaches that we have been talking to in the particular to law enforcement throughout the country, the area where the violence occurred. fact that they are beginning to understand these COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. So you were there additional responsibilities as it pertains not only before the trial verdict. Did you anticipate in any to hate crimes, but their role in the community, way any violence of this degree in terms of an period. We see people come to training courses acquittal in the jury? who are sent, who are told to be there, and they MS. HUGHES. My staff in the San Francisco walk out with a sense of increased awareness office had discussed this among themselves and and responsibility to this whole issue. had their own plan. But violence to this degree, I COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Let me just ask don't think was anticipated by anyone, not even one more question, if I could. When we were in CRS. Los Angeles following the events there, we met COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Were steps taken with Korean American merchants and other citi- in terms of enhanced activity on the part of CRS zens, and they told at least two of the Commis- in preparation for the verdict? sioners here that many Koreans now fear for Ms. HUGHES. We had, as I said, been talking their lives and believe they are going to be tar- to those coalition groups and, again, yes, they geted in the near future. They also told us that had a plan, but I think that any plan that my an average of about one Korean merchant a agency, or any agency for that matter, would month in the Los Angeles area is murdered dur- have had would not have ever predicted or been ing a robbery attempt on his or her store. Should prepared to address the kind of violence that a Korean American merchant be murdered, say occurred. in the near future in the process of robbery, how COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Is CRS now look- would you consider that? What would cause you ing at the possibility, however great or small, of to determine that it was a hate crime or cause violence continuing or occurring again in the Los you to determine it was not a hate crime? Angeles area sometime in the summer? MR. WILSON. There is a set of proven guide- Ms. HUGHES. We are there in full staff to ad- linesto base a judgment of whether this dress the issuesnot only that we believe we homicide-robberyisahatecrimeornot.

79 85 Basically the whole scenario has to be reviewed COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Do you think that by the police department and by reviewing police based on what is occurring, say in these reports officials, who have more experience in what is a and in other cases, that you might ask to include hate crime and what is not. Things that are said that as part of your data? during the crime episode come into play. The MR. WILSON. I believe that when police bru- perception of the community is a factor, but not tality becomes a factor, the FBI and the Depart- a determinant. The historical commission of ment of Justice usually get involved in the other hate crimes by offenders, if offenders are identi- aspects, and that data would be available in an- fied, and many other factors are brought to bear other channel than Uniform Crime Reports. on this one specific incident. So there's no gen- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. But you don't see it eral litmus test that is applied, but the facts and in your data at all? Really what I am asking is: the professional judgment of the law enforce- at what point is it a police brutality issue and at ment people that are experienced in the area. what point is it a prejudice issue and how do you COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, Commis- distinguish these two or do you distinguish it? sioner. MR. WILSON. We don't. We don't attempt it at COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. If I could follow up all. on that question. The Korean Grocers Associa- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Ms. Hughes, if we tion gave us the figures, and they did not give us can go back to your office, part of what we heard the data itself. Hopefully they will send it later, this morning was that very often budget is not but they gave us the data that over the last 2 there when it comes to supporting a lot of these years, one person per month had been killed. My programs. Can you tell us how much staff you question to you is: in your collection of datayou have out there in Los Angeles right now? say you have quarterly reportswhat kinds of Ms. HUGHES. We started out with 10 borrow- trends were you able to gather from these quar- ing from other regions, an approximate total of terly reports? What can you tell us about what about 10 people. you're seeing, first of all, nationwide as to what COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Ten people right the trends are there, and then secondly focus on there now? Los Angeles? MS. HUGHES. No, we've rotated some out be- MR. WILSON. Unfortunately, because of the cause we had them working 24 hours a day, so relatively new status of the program, I have no we pulled some out and I think we have about national trends at all. Because the program is it could be between five and six, I am not sure. new, the gaps are wide and geographically dis- We haven't talkedwe were waiting to talk to persed, so it's going to be a couple of years, our folks in Los Angelesbut it's between five frankly, before national trends are able to be ar- and six. ticulated in a responsible way. COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. When you imple- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. In any of those re- mented your hotline, how many additional staff ports that you had, were there incidents of police members were you able to put into that area, brutality as part of these hate crimes that were and have you been able to increase your staff reported to you? Could you comment on the re- members there? port that was just released by the Department of Ms. HUGHES. For the first time in many, Justice on police brutality by police depart- many years, I have had a budget increase, and ments? that's where the alerts desk officer comes in. For MR. WILSON. I am sorry. I am not the proper this year we were increased three more slots in person to comment on the police brutality the regional offices. We have 10 regional offices, aspect, although I've been involved with police so we have to determine where those three slots brutality investigations way back in my career. are going to go, and two more slots in the head- The Uniform Crime Reports program does not quarters. One of them is the alerts desk officer capture the occupation of either the victim or the that's associated with the hotline. offender, so I am unable completely to address COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. In our visit to L.A., that. I am sorry. part of what we heard was the solutionbecause we were trying to find some solutions alsowas

80 86 a lawyer that told us that they felt that the solu- MR. WILSON. Yes, I am afraid so. tion was going to the schools, and working with COMMISSIONER BERRY. Would you, if you had the schools and having sensitivity training with no other information available to you, would you students. Does your agency do any of that now conclude that that was a hate crime? and, if not, do you have any plans to work with MR. WILSON. Well, the whole episode was not groups and/or schools? taped, but from a human standpoint it is hard to MS. HUGHES. Yes, we .do. We've been provid- believe that anything could justify it before the ing conflict resolution techniques to high schools part that was taped. in California, and we even started a pilot project The question was do I believe it was a hate with one particular elementary school here in crime? this area. We have adopted a school as part of COMMISSIONER 'BERRY. Do you, using the the adoption program, and in the course of that same standard that you used in concluding that relationship, the principal asked us if we would the destruction of the Korean businesses was a do that because he found out what we did, and hate crime, which conclusion I heard you make he was very excited about the kind of work we here, based on your observation of television, did in terms of teaching children conflict resolu- having seen the Rodney King beating and heard tionto come to a table and resolve their con- the tapes associated with that and everything flicts early on, instead of committing violence to- that everybody else has seen and heard in Amer- wards each other. This is a pilot and if it works ica who is alive, would you, if you had no other out well we may try to prototype that in other knowledge availableto you or information, schools throughout the area and the country. We would you draw a conclusion that that was a have begun doing that in California in high hate crime? schools already. MR. WILSON. Well, I was trying to transition, I COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Are you looking at guess, between the brutality questions of earlier going to other States where you have major de- and hate crimes. With regard to the King beat- mographic changes? ing, the race of Mr. King and the police officers Ms. HUGHES. Oh, yes. This is, as I said, a pilot may or may not have had anything to do with project. We're working in California and we're the brutality or the lack of professionalism that now having to sit down and figure outpriori- may have been involved there. It's just hard to tizewhich part of the country we go because know that had the person been of a different obviously we can't go everywhere, but at least race, whether the same thing may very well each of the 10 regional directors can begin to do have occurred. I don't know that. You know, some of that activity in their regions. some of these things that we in law enforcement COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Thank you very see as indicators are, for example, that other much. people in the vehicle that was driven by Mr. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Commissioner King of the same race were not brutalized. Berry? COMMISSIONER BERRY. Were there Koreans in COMMISSIONER BERRY. Mr. Wilson, if I under- Los Angeles whose businesses were not de- stood you correctly, you saidin answer to Com- stroyed or who were not brutalized? missioner Andersonthat based on what you MR. WILSON. Yes, that's very true. saw on CNN, you concluded that the destruction COMMISSIONER BERRY. Were there also tapes of the Korean businesses was a hate crime, if I that have been made availableand I've heard heard you correctly. on the television of police talking to each other MR. WILSON. Just to correct that a wee bit, I over their radios and calling black people names said, if that's all I hadI meant to say, if that's all during this whole incident that many of us all I had to base a forced decision on or an opin- have heard, it's been on TV. As you go with each ion, I would, yes, I believe it was. variable, I am just trying to figure out how you COMMISSIONER BERRY. Did you see the beat- concluded in one case, based on what you saw on ing of Rodney King on CNN or any other chan- TV, without any hesitation, that it was a hate nel? Have you had an opportunity to view that crime when Ms. Hughes told us that it was still tape? being investigated, and yet when I asked you

87 81 about the Rodney King incident, you seem reluc- I heard correctly. Then there was another num- tant to, in the same fashion, reach a similar con- ber 200 and something, whatever those numbers clusion. I am just trying to draw a distinction were. Were any of those reports of hate crimes here. perpetrated by police? MR. WILSON. Well, obviously I should have Ms. HUGHES. They may have been. I did not taken the cautious approach that Ms. Hughes break them down to that. did in the original answer. The selectivity of the COMMISSIONER BERRY. Could you,if you Korean businessmen among the community in would mind, could you check and let us know the report that I heard talked about the hit and that? miss, the Korean, the next business was not and MS. HUGHES. Sure. it was missed and so forth. If I had to make an COMMISSIONER BERRY. The other thing is opinion based on that, that's what I'd be forced somebody said that, first of all, blacks were more to say, but certainly each individual case has to reluctant to report incidents that occurred than stand on its own facts. were whites. I've forgotten who said that. Then COMMISSIONER BERRY. Were you aware that somebody else said that there were increasing there were black business that were destroyed? numbers of hate crimes perpetrated by blacks MR. WILSON. Oh, yes. Sure. against whites and other kinds of interethnic COMMISSIONER BERRY. Would you consider hate crimes. I think you said that, Mr. Welch. I their destruction a hate crime? am trying to put those two together. MR. WILSON. I don't know. I don't know. Well, Would this mean that if we kept accurate sta- I saw on the tapes tistics, we would be likely to underestimate the COMMISSIONER BERRY. I am having real trou- number of incidents in which blacks were vic- ble how to figure out how you draw these conclu- tims and to overestimate the numbers in which sions? blacks were perpetrators? If I am making myself MR. WILSON. I saw a lot of the tapes where clearMr. Ehrlich says that blacks are less the offenders, the rioters, were white and other likely to report things that happen to them than than black. So I don't know. I am not trying to, whites are. So I am just wondering, if we ever certainly, give any degree of attention to the Ko- really got those statistics, and we kept numbers rean businesses over other groups. of reports, would we end up having all these re- COMMISSIONER BERRY. I am not objecting to ports of people who were attacked by blacks and that; I am just trying to see how you draw these hardly any reports of blacks who were attacked distinctions. just because they did not report it? Would either MR. WILSON. Well, I had very limitedand I of you care to comment on that? Did I get what tried to qualify my answervery limited infor- you said right, Mr. Ehrlich, or wrong? mation on which to base that personal opinion. MR. EHRLICH. We really have to look at two COMMISSIONER BERRY. The other thingI things. One is the grounds for not reporting, and would like to know is are police brutality or inci- the primary set of reasons that people give us, dents of violence perpetrated by police, if they and all these data are based on either face-to- are shown to be racially motivated, counted in face or telephone interviews with people, is that your statistics as hate crime or not? they try to deny that what happened to them MR. WILSON. They are indeed. But not deline- was an act of prejudice, especially if it occurs at ated. school or work where they have to go back to the COMMISSIONER BERRY. I beg your pardon? same setting the following day. It becomes psy- MR. WILSON. They are counted, but not delin- chologically an important thing in their own eated by the occupation of the offenders. mental healthI shouldn't say thatin their COMMISSIONER BERRY. So we wouldn't be able own attempts to adapt to their environment to to look at them and tell. say, "Well, it was really because of that person's MR. WILSON. That's right. personality. It wasn't, you know, it had nothing COMMISSIONER BERRY. Also, Ms. Hughes, the to do with prejudice." numbers you gave us earlier about the reports of The second reason why they don't report is the CRS, there were 4,000 something or other, if because they don't trust the people who are

82 88 taking the reports. So in terms of changing the in this. That's one point I wanted to bring out. As character of reporting, it's only at such times as far as the crimes that I was talking about, that's those formal authorities, whether it's the police, areas that do have a standard reporting system whether it's the supervisor, whether it's an and have had it for a number of years, and that's EEOC officer, and so on, it's only at such times where those came from. when they've established their credibility and COMMISSIONER BERRY. Do you have any infor- trust that reporting will increase. mation about infiltration of the Klan into police I also want to comment on the white reports departments, Mr. Welch? Is that still a problem and that isunderstand that a lot of whites are or not? attacked by whites. When we talk about the MR. WELCH. It's not as big a problem as it level of white ethnoviolence against whites, often used to be. We have, since I've been at Klan- what gets smooshed together in the overall sta- watch, we have broken up, one in particular, in tistic is the fact, for example, that some whites the Louisville area of Kentucky, where an officer are attacked because they are in an interethnic was a Klavern leader within a national Klan or- or interracial friendship or marriage, or because ganization, and he had recruited several officers they've acted in defense of minority persons. within that department. That's the most flagrant Some whites are attacked for matters of ethnic- act I've seen as far as infiltration of a police de- ity, being a Ukrainian, being Polish, being Ital- partment. There have been other incidental situ- ian, and so on. The white category covers a lot ations around the country. I think one in Texas, more dimensions than when you're talking about one in Florida that I can recall over the lastfew the reporting of African Americans. years. We do pay particular attention to that.If COMMISSIONER BERRY. Yes, Mr. Welch. they are there, they are keeping it so covert that MR. WELCH. One thing I am not as optimistic we have a hard time, or anybody else has a hard about is I don't know if it's going to be a couple of time, of finding that out. I am not sure it's as years before we have accurate statistics. Of widespread an organized racism within the de- those 30 States in respect to Mr. Wilson's answer partments as it generally used to be. or statement, I think a lot of those States, the COMMISSIONER BERRY. I wanted to ask any- cities within the States weren't reporting to the one who cares to answer, but first would like to State agency. So still you've got a problem. hear what Mr. Hordes has to say about this next I think I heard maybe 11 States participated question. You told us about these statistics and in what we can say may be as total as couldhow they're done and the constraints and bemost of the States participating with most whether they're good, bad, indifferent, and so on. of the cities within the State getting their infor- But what do hate crime statistics, or what does mation to the State agency that gathers this inour information about reports of hate crimes, formation. Maybe we can break it down a little what does it tell us about racial tension? If you more with something that Mr. Wilson has here, have more, does that mean there's more? If you but it's my understanding that the majority ofhave less, does that mean there's less? And if it the Statesas a matter of fact, there was a evens off, does that mean there's fewer? In the State or two that only had one or two cities with- work that you do at B'nai B'rith, for example, in the State that reported. So I think we're going the Anti-Defamation League, and then for any of to have to do something to make it mandatory at the rest of you, what do you conclude about the some point because I don't ever believe we will existence or nonexistence of hate crimes in gen- have total participation in my lifetime if I know eral on this whole subject we have here of racial police departments around different States. I tensions? don't think we will have total participation in MR. HORDES. Well, as it has already been this; unless we do, we're still going to be hurting pointed out, statistics, unfortunately, are still as far as accurate data in order to develop trends fairly spotty and don't, by themselves, indicate and be able to funnel money into troubled spots, the entire picture. We have been gathering sta- and to tell us what's going on. tistics in the area that we have focused on, So I am a little bit more pessimistic about the which is anti-Semitic statistics. We've tried to time limit that we're going to have participation refine our approaches and procedures, but it is

83 89 difficult to get a really complete and accurate to come from sample surveys whether it's the picture. I say that as a caveat. Moreover, I think survey that Welch mentioned that Harris had statistics, in and of themselves, are not the only done, whether it's the Urban Leaguesurvey indices of the nature and intensity of the prob- which I cited in Richmond and Baltimore,or lems we face. whether it's our national surveys or our 14-col- If I could make a generalization, I wouldsay, lege campus surveys. When you go around and based on a variety of factors including the statis- take a sample of people and you ask them what tics that we have gathered, we are concerned happenedyou don't have to ask everybody;you about growing numbers of hate crimes and in- don't have to count all of the institutionalre- stances of bigotry and prejudice. What we find is ports; the sampling theory ought to be well es- a growing tolerance of intolerance and a greater tablished in 1992, by nowwe know that we're degree of tension. I think, statistics, certainly as talking about something like 40 million inci- I've indicated in the testimony, if we can get dents at a minimum, not 1,000 incidents, not them more comprehensive, provide us with some 100 incidents. We're talking about people who of the raw data we need to develop solutions. are reporting repeated victimizations over time, But that, in itself, is not enough, and we at the and when I am saying incidents, I am not talk- Anti-Defamation League have made a major ef- ing about the repeated incident, I am talking fort to develop proactive programming to deal about a single person reporting a single incident. with these problems before they begin. I would say, even as a researcher, you don't We're very proud of this program which I ref- need any more research on this subject unless erenced, "A World of Difference," which is di- our purpose is to convince people who perhaps rected primarily at the school systems of our no amount of research will ever convince. The country.It's a prejudice awareness program, problem is, here, we really do have all of the prejudice reduction program. We have, over the data. We can argue about parts of it and we can last 6 years, trained over 10,000 teachers in our get into methodological arguments and so on, public school system, and we have now broad- but we're really talking about an epidemic prob- ened that program into two different areas. One lem, which if we had a disease entity that were is a "Campus of Difference" to try to address hitting this proportion of the population, the some of the growing tensions that appear on the Surgeon General of the United States would college campuses today, and also "A Workplace of have called it a clear cut disaster. Difference," where we try to work with both gov- COMMISSIONER BERRY. One of the things you ernmental entities and the corporate world injust said, though, raises another question, be- sensitivity training for their work force. cause when we argued for this legislation and MR. EHRLICH. There have been some trends the Commission endorsed the passage of the that are important to note. When you go and Hate Crime Statistics Act, one of the arguments, look at the agencies or jurisdictions that have as I recall, was that if we ever got the numbers been collecting data over a period of time, the and the reports, then it would help solve the State of Maryland, the New York City Police De- problem because everybody would know how partment, the Boston Police Department, the many there were. We would have good numbers Los Angeles County Human Relations Commis- and people would believe that these incidents sion, and ADL, you can see that there has been were occurring. Now I am beginning to wonder an increase in reported incidents motivated bybased on your comment. You're saying that we prejudice. Beyond that, what you can also see in have a pretty good idea already that there are a all of these data is that there has been a shift in lot of these and that they happen. I've often won- the kind of incident. That is, if you go back a few dered, too, because even CRS, if I recall cor- years, you will see that the major incidents were rectly, and from your testimony, you've been re- essentially property crimes, and now they're porting increasing number of reports to you of crimes against people, so that these incidents incidents over the last, what, 3 or 4 years or have, in fact, become more physically violent. something? I want to emphasize that when it comes to MS. HUGHES. Yes. counting, at the moment, our best guess is going

84 90 COMMISSIONER BERRY. The hope was sup- Korean leaders, that part of the problem in Los posed to be that if we got numbers and they Angeles was, for example, the media kept show- showed the numbers going up, then the country ing the Rodney King tape over and over and over would pause and people would say, "Oh, my God, again. The media also kept showing the Latasha this is happening, we did not know this, and we Harlins tape, but they would show only the part will do something about it." Are you saying that where the Korean woman shot the black girl in that is too optimistic and that's too sanguine and the back. They kept showing that over and over that it's not just the knowing about it that helps? and over again. Now, as the CRS unit, when you I guess that's what I inferred from what you go into a community and you hearthis kind of said, Mr. Ehrlich. media coverage over and over again, what do MR. EHRLICH. Well, it's clearly not just know- you do or what can you do, anddo you try to ing about it that's going to change the character work with the media at all in part of what you of relations. Let me tell you an experience of the do? institute. When we called a press conference to Ms. HUGHES. We, are third party neutral. We release the findings of one of our surveys that don't go in there taking one side or the other. indicated that 25 percent of college students Our job is to bring the people together to the were victimized at least onceduring the course table to resolve their conflict without taking of an academic year, we were covered exten- sides, nor telling them what their issues are. It's sively in all of the media, but most of the editori- up to them to bring it upthemselves. If we bring als that appeared basically attacked us for say- them to the table, and a conflict has to deal with ing this, as if somehow or other we had made up this situation, for example, it's up to the people the figure. The Associated Press ran a story that to bring that up and say because ofthis I am said, basically, the National Institute blames a very upset and that's why Ihave demonstrated million college student victims on President or whatever and I am not going tosettle until Reagan, which of course now trivialized the some things are resolvedhere. It's up to them to whole thing, made us look silly, and I am sure it bring that issue up, not up to us. So we are to- did not embarrass the President particularly, tally third party neutral, if I understand your but you know, just releasing the information in question correctly. With the media we have not, and of itself is not sufficient. to my knowledge, been involved in any casethat I think we seriously have to talk about, first of has involved the media as a party. all, people occupying positions of legitimate au- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Well, we specifically thority, whether it's members of the Commis- heard it from them. They were telling us this. In sion, candidates for the Presidency of the United the case of the one Korean individual, they States, college presidents, and so on, speaking called the television station and they said, "You out legitimating the kind of materialsthat those have a program that's 60 minutes long and for of us on the panel tried to present and gettingthe last 45 minutes you have given the black people to break through the kind of denial that perspective on this issue. At what point do you we can see, not only herewith respect to hate give the Korean perspective on this issue?" The violence, but with respect to affirmative action, response from the television station was,"Go with respect to the differentials in health care back, sit down, watch the rest of the program; among the various ethnic groups,with respect to you're going to see a change." Well, they did and the levels of sex harassment, and so on and so they showed like 2 minutes, she said, on this forth. event and the Korean side to the story,and it COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you. Commis- was more about protestingthe television station sioner Buckley. than about the burning down of entire shopping COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. If I could follow up. areas. It wasn't pinpointed; it wasentire shop- I'd like Ms. Hughes to answer first and then ping areas, the whole thing. When you go in to a maybe the other members of the panel. We've community, is there any way that you can have heard this morning, especially in the first panel, some dialogue with the media? Isthere anything and we heard in Los Angeles in some of the that you can do? meetings that I was at, from black leaders and

85 91 MS. HUGHES. Well, it's not forus to go, again of all of you about the relationship as I said, and tell the media what they between na- can and tional climate both in terms of publicpolicy and cannot print. It's up to the media. Again, Ican- in terms of, for example, the focus of religious not talk too much about the case and what we're organizations or the focus of social organizations actually working onthis could bean issuebut and national, State, and Federal leadership, I am just going to give you the an example. We may relationship between that climate and thein- already be working on it, but I can'tsay that, all creased incidence of incidents of ethnoviolence. right. If they, the Korean community, forexam- There are some who wouldargue that policies ple, come and tell us, "Here'sa situation they that promote race-targeted remedies leadto ra- won't help me resolve and they won't addressmy cial division. There are those who wouldargue concerns and if they don't we're going to protest," that the absence of those policies would leadto now it's a communitywide dispute. I only get in- that. volved in communitywide disputes, notone I am not asking you to come downon one side individual's situation. It has to be community- or the other, but just to discuss what, if any, wide as per my mandate. If that happens, then relationship you think exists between those fac- we bring the media and the Korean community tors. I will let anyone who wants to lead off. Let together to resolve that conflict. me just say that I think we're not going to be COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Okay. So then, I satisfied if all that we hear fromyou are data. should go tell them if you're interested in getting My sense is that you all know something deeper this resolved, this is what you need to do. Isthat than the statistics about this phenomenon and I what we need to do? would like you to share that withus. Grace, do MS. HUGHES. Go call the Community Rela- you want to lead off? tions Service to help you resolveyour conflict Ms. HUGHES. On all three questionsor just because you may not be happy with the media one? doing that and this is oneway of resolving it. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Whicheverone you COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. So that's the angle feel like you know the most about. they have to follow in order to getyour help? Ms. HUGHES. Okay. Well, theone answer I Ms. HUGHES. We may even know about it was going to give you, you have to wait to read through our own network, but ifwe don't know, my book and you'll get the answer to all of this that's one way of doing it. because I do plan to write a book hereon some of COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, Commis- this. I would leave the data question tosome of sioner Buckley. I am going to takemy three you all if you don't mind, and I wanted to get questions and then I'll make time for the staffto into some of the motivation andsome of the poli- make theirs and the General Counsel. tics. There are so many different factorson why I was interested in knowing whetheryou have people hate. It's not one, it's not two, it'snot even any data that indicates the socioeconomic distri- three; there are just so many. We, unfortunately, bution of both perpetrators and victims of ethno- at the Community Relations Service, that isone violence. I think one of the problems is thatwe of the things I wanted to set usup into kind of a always think it's something that happensto research arm to substantiatesome of the other other people or the middle class willstereotype reports, as well as our own incidents, to make about the type of people who do thissort ofthem a little bit more scientific, butan alert is thing. an alert. So as far as I am concerned that is very The other is a little tougher to state. Iam scientific for purposes of our work. interested in permutations of motivation for There are just so many different motivations hate crimes. It's a followup to the first question. and I wish that I could givean answer today What do you know about what drives peopleto about one, two, or three. You and Igrew up in different kinds of actions or incidents? south Texas and we know the discriminationyou The third is, we have hearda great deal about and I encountered and maybe I might have suf- an increase in ethnoviolence. We have also heard fered it more than you didor whatever, the point a great deal about a neglect, a denial of the prob- is we both did. In south Texas, formany differ- lem. I am interested in having the perspectives ent reasons that people hate us, but the bottom

86 92 line is because we were Mexican. Then we had to ing those 4.0 grades. Maybe now people feel figure out, well, why is that because I am Mexi- threatened by it. Is that a reason? It could very can that they hate me? Is it because I have a well be. That's just one of the many. dark skin, because I have an accent, because The point is that we are now in a position they all think we're migrant workers and mi- where we are threatening somebody and maybe grant workers are bad? You know, what is it? You somebody's own inadequacy feeling with them- try to figure it out and you can't. So, I don't know selves that they do that. That's another thought that we all know that answer other than these and I could go on and on, but I have to give other are the reasons why people do it, because they're folks some time, so I don't want to do that. That black, because they're brown, but what is itjust gives you an idea. I don't know that any one about me that's brown or what is it about me policy in here would ever create this kind of a that's black that makes people hate me? Because situation. I don't think that anyone waits for a they have me stereotyped? People think all Mex- policy or reads the newspaper and says, "Ah- icans are "wetbacks" and that's bad? So what is hah, there's a policy passed over at the Depart- it about a "wetback" that's bad? I don't know. I ment of Education about scholarships or what- wish I did. None of us can tell that. ever, so I am going to start hatingpeople." I Is it because they have a stereotype that we don't know that people actually do that. are all on welfare and that we'recheating the They hate out of ignorance, out of stupidity government and that we ought to go out there and a policy, I don't think, drives them. Maybe and work? Is that why they hate us? There are some it does. Like I say, it doesn't driveall of so many stereotypes; there are so manyfactors; them. But I don't think that those haters, the there are so many thoughts out there. But the real haters, actually sit around reading the Con- point is that it is there, and unless it's agenciesgressional Record or the Federal Digest to see like us that bring people together and groups which policy has changed today to give them the like you that have hearings like this that bring license to run and hate. They hate no matter awareness to people about the incidents and we what. So I don't correlate policies of anyone try to do something about it, it's going to con- State, local, or Federal Governmentwith giv- tinue. So I applaud this kind of hearing because ing people license. I think it's there already. I people need to know that these incidents occur. think the more incidents they see and that peo- More people now, I think, are reporting inci- ple are getting away with it, that might be a dents. I know when I was growing up if some- situation where they say, "Well, they got away body had called me a spic, I probably would have with it; maybe I can do it. They went and burned never reported it. I would have been scared to a cross on a black family and theblack family death that there would have been retaliation on moved. They succeeded; so let's keep doing it." I me or my family because of that. I think more think that motivates it more than any policy people are more courageous now and will report that they're reading anywhere else. That's just it, so thank goodness for those kinds of people my idea. I am sorry, I'll give you all time to re- who come forward. spond. I think what amazes me is also the kind of MR. WELCH. I think it is complex and I don't hate crimes that occur on college campuses. A lot think anybody here is going to have an answer of our incidents are coming now from collegeto it, but I think there are a lot of stabs we can campuses. Maybe they were there all along but take at it. I think economics has always played a no one reported them, but they're reporting part in racial problems. I think that we've got them now and they're very, very serious inci- more adversity in this country now than we've dents as far as I am concerned. So what moti- ever had at any time. I think really oureduca- vates them to do that today? Is that because it's tional systems have failed because we have no competition? Is it because now we as minorities effective programs in schools to teach children are more out front where we weren't before? We about our growing diversity in this country. were in the back of the bus; we were in the field There is still segregation all over this United picking cotton. We were not the student council States where you have pockets of ethnic groups representative in a university; we were not mak- here and ethnic groups there, and ignorance of

87 93 one another breeds hatred. When you're vying Jew. Anti-Semitism is something that has been for the same jobs, it creates hard feelings.I dogging the Jewish people through the millen- think there are just a number of factors. nium. We seek to developprograms, we seek to I think on college campusesyou can have educate, but it's there and I think whatwe need, something as simple and basic assome neo-Nazi as a people and as a society, to be eternally vigi- group saturating 500 newspapers with propa- lant and creative and concerned about dealing ganda overnight, and some kid picking itup and with this problem. I think thatyou deal with it reading that affirmative action is thecause of through a variety of mechanisms. You deal with this, that, and the other. Thereare so many fac- it, I think, primarily through education, through tors that breed racism and which cause hate making people understand the otherperson bet- crimes that I don't know of anybody havinga ter, understanding differences and appreciating solution to it. I do think everything that we've differences. talked about today can help combat itfrom the We are a multicultural society; weare a very Hate Crime Statistics Act to educationand I do diverse pluralistic society; we need to know each believe that ignorance is one of the main motiva- other better; we need to have pride inour own tors for racism. I don't want to sound like a bro- ethnic and religious backgrounds. We need to ken record on education, but I do think that that help people, I think, on the basis of cultural dis- is one of the primary means of combatingrac- advantage or educational disadvantage and at- ism, not education alone, and not a short-term tempt to deal with society's problems thatway. solution. It's going to take a while, but I do think Law enforcement is important in makingsure it's very important, maybe the single most im- that people who are perpetrators are not rein- portant issue. These others, effective law enforced by getting away with their crimes. I think forcement statistics, which by the way, I do this Commission has a very important mandate; think are very worthwhile, all of this has to play we need to maintain a great deal of vigilance into the war against racism and the racial and we need leadership at every level. We need hatred. it at the Federal level, we need it at the State MR. WILSON. I'd just like to make a very brief level, we need it at the local level. We need it not comment because your statement was so import- only in government but also through privateor- ant, I believe. Statistics alone don't tell the com- ganizations and community organizations. plete stories. It is merely one dimension out of COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you. Before I very many that have to be looked at. Secondly, ask Mr. Ehrlich to respond, I want to remindyou understanding the deeper aspects of prejudice is that one of my questions had to do with socioeco- ultimately important for all of us and all of those nomic distribution in terms of both the perpetra- who are involved with this problem. We spenda tors and the victims of ethnoviolence. I amsure day and a half training police officers in this you have the answer, right? hate crime statistics program. If itwere that we MR. EHRLICH. As far as I can tell, thereare no only had to talk about logistics, how to report it, socioeconomic differences among those people now that's covered in an hour and a half. Less who are victimized. In terms of perpetrators,as than a day and a half is spent on discussing the I indicated in my prepared remarks, I honestly psychology of prejudice, what it is, how it mani- feel that people who talk about the characteris- festsitself, and all the different types. We tics of perpetrators based on random collections employ a psychologist to help with this effort of materials are doing us a disservice. We know and the human interest groups have alsopro- that we don't know who the perpetratorsare. To vided input into that. So your statement iscru- generalize from that small subset of people who cial in this whole effort. are either dumb enough to do it publicly or get MR. HORDES. I would concur withmany of the caught, I think is a gross error and will just statements that have been made. It seems tome mislead us in terms of building policy. It's not that the problem of prejudice and bigotry is,unjust a bunch of white teenage gangs. Most ofmy fortunately, an eternal one. It's one thatwe are data indicates that most incidentsare individu- going to be dealing with in the futureas people als working alone, not as gangs, notgroups of have dealt with it in the past. I could speakas a people. If you try to build policy on the basis of

88 94 this kind of bad data, you'd have bad policy, and When a columnista syndicated columnist in that's why I've made such a big point of empha- the Washington Postcould write a column only sizing the whole issue of the quality of the data a couple of years ago on the etiquette of ethnic that you have. jokes in which he concludes it's perfectly all Your questions are overwhelmingly broad and right to tell an ethnic joke as long as you're not good. Let me tell you that I start from the per- embarrassed about itmind you, not focusing on spective that prejudice is a learned behavior and the effect on otherswe've changed the norms of that it is learned so early that we can see its behavior because Idon't think that column manifestation in 3 and 4 year olds. Even though would have been printed 15 or 20 years ago. So 3 and 4 year olds cannot reliably distinguish it's those norms we have to deal with. skin color or gender differences, they still have Let me just segue into another part of your come to learn that there are some good and bad question. There are larger socioeconomic issues things associated withthis.They learnit that support these kinds of attitudes. We know, through their parents, they certainly learn it as I think one of your speakers later todaywill through television which they've already begun talk about, that our residential areas have be- watching by that age, and they learn it when come increasingly segregated. The opportunities they get into the schools. We'd better not just for favorable interaction then have become far talk about education in that broad sense because more restricted. In terms of the decade of 1980 the schools are conceivably one of the major per- to 1990, it's the second largest period of im- petrators in the sense of communicating the migration in American history. Now, saying that, kinds of stereotypes you want to fight about or we can ask ourselves as social scientistsand as want to fight against. professionals in this area, we knew what was It's the character of education. One of the pro- going on. Where were the community workers grams that the Southern Poverty LawCenter and the human relations workers that were be- started has been to direct a program at teaching, ginning the kinds of multicultural education specifically teaching tolerance and mechanisms that would prepare young children and adults of dealing with intergroup tensions. So let's be for these new waves of migrants? We can pre- careful when we talk about educationwe're re- dict, pretty successfully, where the new migrants ally trying to talk about how we design educa- are going to settle from the older patternsof tional opportunities and experiences so as to settlement. teach people about group differences, how to re- I know of almost no proactive programs in the solve conflicts, how to recognize stereotypes. No- country that dealt with this. So now we have to body can grow up, as far as I am concerned, in go in and put out the fires. It becomesthat much this society, without learning the dominant prej- more difficult to establish a humanrelations udices of the society. program after an incident has occurred.So I The question is that some people act on these don't think that we've really used the knowledge and some people don't. Those who come to act on that we've had because I honestly believe there these presumably do so because they're in a com- has been a general governmental and leadership munity or in a group in which these actions are unwillingness, and I mean leadership beyond normative. They're reinforced, supported, and so government leadership, to do so. on. That's the point at which we have tolearn COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you. Mr. Staff how to intervene, namely, to make sure that it is Director, do you have any questions? not normative. I put a great deal of emphasis on MR. GONZALEZ. Yes, Madam Chair. I am a lit- people in positions of prestige and authority tle bit concerned having heard the previous pan- making statements that help young people break els talk about the need for vocabulary or termi- away from what they see as the norms of their nology or language. Let me see if I understand own group, and I don't think that I've seen Mr. Welchyou indicated that in the statistics enough of that over the last 20 years or so, so gathered there is data that's classified on the that kids have grown up really thinking it is hate crimes against whites; is that true, sir? appropriate to act in this way. MR. WELCH. Yes.

95 MR. GONZALEZ. But you're saying that in the MS. HUGHES.Since you used to bemy super- case of a white person that interjects himselfor visor, I guess so. herself in say the beating ofa person of color by MR. GONZALEZ.Your agency is part of the De- other whites, if he or she is then beatenup by partment of Justice and I suspect that after the those whites, that would be classifiedas a hate King incident you got involved with the crime against the white? community, you acted as an arm of the Departmentof MR. WELCH.I don't think I said that. Justice but in an independentway, I guess. Is MR. GONZALEZ.No, I am saying if that were that true? the scenario, would that be classifiedas a hate Ms.HUGHES.Never independent from the De- crime? partment of Justice. MR. WELCH.Like Mr. Wilson said, you've got MR. GONZALEZ.But within the Department of to take each individual incident separately. You Justice, independent in that sense. can't just broadly say thatevery white person MS. HUGHES.We work very closely with the that jumps in a conflict and is beatenup is auto- FBI. We have a very good relationship with matically a victim of a hate crime. Asa matter of them. We coordinate a lot ofour work. We don't fact, he's even got things with examples here of obviously do what they tell usor vice versa, but how some of these work. I am notsure, person- we coordinate. ally, how that would work, if a whiteperson is MR. GONZALEZ.Right. Now, did that relation- what you're saying. ship change after the riots with the introduction MR. WILSON.Yes, sir. The bias motivation on of FEMA and SBA and so forth in terms ofyour which any hate crime that is committed is delin- involvement as part of the task force? Did it take eated in the hate crime statisticsprogram, if it's away some of your independence in terms of how racial, we know the "anti" part of what's racial. you carried out your functions? Antiwhite, antiblack, anti-American Indianor MS. HUGHES.No. In fact, it enhances it and in Asian/Pacific Islander, or antimultiracialgroup factI can't say a lot of the things we're doing may be a motivation by some offenders. If it's right nowbut we're working with the Federal ethnicity or national origin, we break it down by agencies very closely. type of bias whether it's anti-Arab, anti-Hispa- MR. GONZALEZ.But your employees get direct nic, and on and on. Prejudice is the sameway. instructions from you or their supervisorsor in MR. GONZALEZ. Ithink I understand that, but that development of a task force with other let me see if I can set a scenario foryou. If you agencies involved, is there someone that they are the police officer involved at the scene of the then respond to other than someone working crime and there's a white person that has been with CRS? beaten up by whites and one of the whiteperpe- Ms.HUGHES.In this particular case we have. trators says to you, "You know we beat himup They always answer to the regional director and because he's a nigger lover," wouldyou consider,the regional director answers to me. In thispar- that a hate crime? ticular case, because we have a special operation MR. WILSON.Yes, sir. It would be antiblack set up right now, the head of the operations in even though the victim, per se, is white. The Los Angeles is answering to me. hate is against black. MR. GONZALEZ.So at no time were your em- MR. GONZALEZ.So you would put it in the ployees taking instructions from FEMA? hate crime against black category? Ms.HUGHES.No. MR. WILSON.That's right. MR. GONZALEZ.Or from SBA? MR.GONZALEZ.Not in the hate crime against MS. HUGHES.No. white? MR. GONZALEZ.So their participation in the MR. WILSON.Exactly. disaster assistance centers was, again,as an in- MR. GONZALEZ.Okay. I needed to understand dependent body as opposed to taking orders from that because I thought maybeyou were using whoever headed up that task force? poor statistics. Graceand I think I can call you MS. HUGHES.Part partner with them, but not Grace instead of Ms. Hughes. to take orders, no. MR. GONZALEZ.That's all I had.

90 96 COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, Mr. Staff units. They don't even know what's going on in Director. their own States. So we try to, I guess, supple- Ms. BOOKER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. ment them with intelligence. In the interest of time I would like to ask for Within the movement itself,we're seeing certain information to be submitted for the re- groups likewell, say Tom Metzger, for in- cord, if you would. Mr. Welch, you've been with stance. As a matter of fact, I got some quotes Klanwatch, I believe, since 1985 and before that that I was reading this morning for a publication ycu were a Montgomery Alabamapoliceman for that we're going to do in a couple of weeks. I had 10 years. I wonder if you would agree to give us had one of my researchers do quotes from the something for the record on any differences that white supremacy movement leaders on the reac- you may have observed over thisperiod of time tion to the Rodney King incident and the Los in the activities of the Klan and the makeup of Angeles riots. I think most people would be a the Klan, the age of recruitment, and any other little curious and maybe surprised at some of observations you may have. these quotes. MR. WELCH. Well, first of all, if we're just In California, Tom Metzger, for instance, one talking about the Klan, those 340 some odd of the foremost white supremacy leaders in this groups we monitored last year, a verysmall per- country who heads an organization called WAR, centage of those were actually traditional Klans- the White Aryan Resistance, said, "Well, if those men. That is one aspect or segmentof the white police officers would beat that black man like supremacy movement that I guess we can say that, he would beat you. We're no friends of law has not significantly grown. You know, there is enforcement, we're no friends of George Bush sporadic growth within an individual Klan group and I don't care if they burn L.A. to the ground. here and there. But when you look at the entire Period. Beverly Hills included." white supremacy movement, we're talking about I mean, 20 years ago you would have heard neo-Nazi Skinheads which obviously have been a nothing but attacks on blacks for burning down big hit in the white supremacy movement over- stores and rioting. Nowadays it's one of the fo- all. They certainly have breathed fresh air into a cuses of the anger. The white supremacy move- dwindling membership over the past few years. ment is not just an antiblack situation now. It's I think regionally we have changes yearly as anti obviously anybody that's not Aryan. It's to activity. These groups are, like almost any anti-Danny Welch because I work for Klan- other organizations, almost as good as who leads watch. It's antilaw enforcement in general and them. If they have a dynamic leader, like the it's antigovernment, period. case with David Duke, say, in theearly 1970s for Metzger and some of the new leaders in the an example. He took over a groupwith probably movement say, "We're not Republicans and we're less than 1,500 members, the traditional Klan at not Democrats. You know, they've done nothing that time, and built it up to 12,000 to 14,000 in a for us." As a matter of fact, they wouldn't dare matter of 2 or 3 years really based solely on his pull for David Duke for anything. They think organizational skills. So that's what we're faced he's a sellout, he's a traitor. These are the trends withus and ADL and those who monitor these that we're seeing over the past decade. You're groupsis a continually changing 'organization getting away from the stereotypical Klansman within this group or within this movement. as being a redneck, beer swiller onthe weekends That's one of the reasons why independent orga- from Mississippi to maybe a member of the nizations such as ours and ADL's and one or two Aryan Nations from Nebraska, who believes in a others are very important because you have no whole different concept of white supremacy and one law enforcement agency that coversthe that's the concept of, you know, it's not between whole national white supremacy scene. You us and minorities. Maybe one groupwould say know, Washington might know what's going on it's between us and the Jews because they con- in Washington, D.C., or a better example may be trol the minorities or whatever. So many of them Baltimore in Baltimore, but they don't know have their own ideas, their own philosophy, and what's going on in the State of Maryland. Some it's a very complicated task keeping up with 300 State agencies don't even have antiterrorist and some odd organizations when almost every

91 97 one of them has some changes in what they be- and a phrase coined actually by David Dukeand lieve and how they believe it and how theyantic- some of the people with the Aryan Nations, ipate furthering their cause. which was a time of high publicity, mediaatten- We have about two factions in themovement tion. The Fifth Era was to bea time of secrecy, of that you can say that are major factors. One, covert activities: "We do nothing but get burned there's an ongoing movement to legitimize the in front of the media." This segment of thewhite white supremacy movement. One of the largest supremacy movement is strictly underground. Klan groupswe're talking about traditional They do their paramilitary training and theybe- Klan groups in Americais headed bya man lieve in a coming racewar or revolution in this name Tom Robb who is a former minister and country. Some people tend to laugh when they who still calls himself a minister of the Identity say, "Hah, a race war, how can we have arace Religion, who says that "We don't hate minori- war like this?" I don't think people laughed too ties. We're not haters. The Knights of the KKK much in the mid-1980s whenan underground are not haters at all. As a matter of fact, we just organization called the Bruders Schweigen went love the white race; we're here to fight for white undercover and got over $4 million in robbery interests which we feel have been trampledover and counterfeiting money to finance thisrace the past few years through affirmative action war, and the majority of that has never been programs or whatever." This is the tactic he's recovered. taking, and believe it or not, as farfetchedas it So basically, that's the two major factions sounds, it gained him recognition, especially we're dealing with within this 340some odd media attention. He's probably the only tradi- groups and including the Skinhead movement, tional Klansman that's had significant growth in the neo-Nazi Skinhead movement, who havecre- years. It's because of these lines he's taken. He ated havoc and been responsible for most of the gets on TV and he talks about not I hate blacks, violence perpetrated by organized whitesuprem- or I hate Jews, or I hate Hispanics. "It's affirma- acists. Not to throw people off key,as Howard tive action that's killing this country." Well,a lot said, most of the violence is not perpetrated by of people, average citizens, don't believe in affir- organized racists, it's vented by individualrac- mative action. "Economically, the United States ists. That's it in a nutshell. I could talk for hours is depressed. The present administration has on that. failed us." I mean this is talk froma Klansman COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thankyou. and he's trying to gain the ear ofaverage citi- MS. BOOKER. Just one more, completelyunre- zens who do have problems with, say drugs in lated to that question, ifanyone would like to schools or violence on the street. Theseare the send us a written response or just giveus a brief issues he's talking about, but he's doing it fora answer here. I wonder do you think that there is reason and he's trying to gain membership. He's a need for a national system of collection of po- getting free publicity, all the free publicity he lice brutality complaints with appropriate analy- wants because all the networks are going to eat sis and followup? this up. When he goes to Denver, for instance, MR. WELCH. I'll take a stab at it, just to start back in January, and has a march in the State this thing. I thought there was through the FBI, capitol with 100 Skinheads, and all ofa sudden first of all. Police brutality complaints, I think, they have 1,000 counter-demonstrators, and and I might be wrong, are supposed togo to the they're the ones turning over the policecars and Justice Department. I think there's definitelya doing the rioting. Well, he tries to capitalizeon need for it, especially in light of the situation this. They meet beforehand andsay, "God, I hope involving Rodney King, which has brought the we have these counter-demonstrators who act situation to the focus of attention and in sucha crazy because we're going to capitalize on this." drastic way that there is a problem. How wide- And they do. spread this problem is, I don't thinkwe will Then you have another segment, the other know unless there's some kind of nationalsys- major portion of the whitesupremacy movement tem, a reporting system to possibly developa who is more subversive. They're covert; they're trend in that. So I think there isa need for this called the Fifth Era. The Fourth Erawas a time in some form or fashion.

92 98 COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Commissioner and I am like everybody elseI saw one part of Anderson, was there a final short question? a video and I think there was a way to avoid Brief question, to be answered briefly. that. I think it was the most brutal thing I've COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Yes. Maybe if I ever seen. If they said that this man could have could ask Mr. Welch this question and I hope you avoided this by, what, staying down, well, you can answer it candidly like Mr. Wilson answered had 12 or however many police officers standing one of my earlier questions. I try to make some there. I don't know why four of them did not sense out of this. This Commissioner, and some manhandle him and lay him down instead of of my colleagues here on the Commission, about standing back hitting him 50 some odd times a year ago felt very strongly about the use bythe with a nightstick. I don't understand that. Los Angeles Police Department of pain avoid- Maybe out there on the street they wanted ance techniques against peaceful demonstrators. him down for a specific reason; I have no earthly In particular, there were instances of a demon- idea. I know other places you might be in a situ- strator having his arm broken with numchucks, ation where there's a crowd around and you for example. Now, to abstract from specifics of a don't want somebody to stay down. You might particular police department we're trying to have to say, "get-up," for instance. I don't know make sense out of a jury verdict where a jury's that you could standardize a policy if you're say- come out and said, "Well, this individualcould ing, particularly relating to somebody's actions, have stopped the beating just by doing what the what they should do right then and there, but I police officers had asked him to do, that is not to think that's going to be within the individual get up." In one case you have an individual hurt discretion of the officer based on where they are because he, for strength of willpower or intoxica- and what the situation is. I would hope training, tion or drug abuse, does not comply and therein particular, training sections of law enforce- fore does not avoid the pain, he doesn't get up ment agencies around this country would capi- and move. Another individual does not comply to talize off of this whole scenario that we've been avoid the pain by getting down and stopping through over the past few months involving the moving. So in a sense you have a policy that's Rodney King incident. I can almost say without neutral on its face, but it can be applied in such seeing the rest of the video that I don't under- a way that leaves so much discretion. stand how they came out with a verdict like Is that kind of a policy something that we that, and how they can say, well, had he done ought to be looking at as a technique used by law this, it wouldn't have happened when you've got enforcement which, when you see it on video or 12 grown men standing around 1 man. You can't whatever, disgusts people and convinces them tell me four people cannot have that man be still immediately that it is wrong and it is unjust. if that's what they want him to do, by simply But when you get into the rarified atmosphere of laying their hands on him and not hitting him. a courtroom, when you're trying to bring your As far as standardizing a way to deal with a criminal prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt, prisoner, I don't think that's possible, to be hon- then you've got a technique which says "Well, he est with you. could have avoided the pain or avoided what COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Thank you, Mr. happened to him just by complying with the Welch. officer's command." Does that kind of technique We have been trying to stay on time. We are have built into it the possibility of racial abuse, now 15 minutes behind schedule. Wewill take a something we ought to be looking at, or is that, 5-minute recess and then return with the next something that can be handled by training or panel. I want to thank the members of the panel something like that? Am I making myself clear for their time and their insight today. Thank you at all? very much. MR. WELCH. Well, no. I think having been a [Recess.] police officer and now doing something totally different, I can say that it's very hard to say specifically,that you have to do this in every situation. For instance, the Rodney King incident

93 99 Changing Demographics Panel our total population growth in the decade, com- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. The staff will ask pared to about 50 percent in the 1970s. So, obvi- the members of the Commission to joinus. We ously, they are a growing and significant part of do have a panelist who will have to leave shortly our national population. To phrase that change a and it will be important for us to get started. slightly different way, the number of minorities Will the General Counsel please introduce the increased by about 32 percent; the number of members of the panel? Anglos or non-Hispanic whites increased by MS. BOOKER. Thank you, Madam Chairman. about 4 percent during the decade, to give youa We have William O'Hare, Evelyn Hu-Dehart, little bit of perspective on the relative growth Gary Sandefur, and Nancy Denton. Will Profes- rates of these groups. The major point is that sor O'Hare please begin. Introduce yourself for there is a large and growing group that is be- the record. coming a larger part of our national population and our national character, and will continue to Statement of William O'Hare, Director of do so in the future according to all of the trends Population and Policy Research, that I've seen. University of Louisville The second point that I want to talk about is MR. O'HARE. I am William O'Hare. I am a increasing diversity in this group of 61 million research scientist at the University of Louisville. Americans. I might parenthetically say that be- Let me thank you for this opportunity to talk cause they are undercounted heavily in the cen- about demographics to this group. I appreciate sus there are actually more like 63 or 64 million the opportunity. as of 1990, but we will stick with the 61 million I think there are two characteristics that epit- reported by the census. The demographic trends omize changes in the minority populations in the and some other socioeconomic trends have led to 1980s that I want to talk about; one is rapid a more diverse minority population than was the growth and the other is increased diversity. Let case a generation or two ago. One of the keys to me say a few words about each of those trends this new diversity is what's often referred to as and then a couple of comments on some of the the "new minorities," and particularly Asian implications. I am sure other speakers will am- Americans,PacificIslanders,and Hispanic plify some of those. groups that are growing very rapidly. As you First, let me parenthetically just note what I may know, the number of Asian Americans more mean by racial and ethnic minorities. I am fol- than doubled between 1980 and 1990 and the lowing the pattern that is used by the Census Hispanic population increased by more than 50 Bureau and talking about African Americans percent over that decade. So those groups are who number about 30 million, Hispanics or Lati- growing extremely rapidly. As a point of con- nos number around 22 million from the 1990 trast, the black population or the African Ameri- census, Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders can population grew by 12 percent over that pe- who number just over 7 million, and then Ameri- riod. can Indians who were slightly under 2 million in One of the implications of the rapid growth of the 1990 census. When you put all thosegroups these new minorities, Asian and Hispanics, is together it amounts to about 61 million people that those groups are made up of a lot of distinct and about a quarter of the U.S. population. So different subgroups. For example, the Hispanic that's the group that I am talking about inmy population is easy to identify: Mexican Ameri- demographic perspective. cans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, a rapidly growing I'll first note that, in 1980, the collection of group of Central and South Americans, which people in those groups was about 46 million, and are often put together, at least in statistical in 1970 it was about 34 million, so there has terms and sometimes in other social terms. been substantial growth, almost doubling in the Those groups often have very different experi- 20 years from 1970 and 1990, in that collection ences and are viewed differently by the public, I of minorities. Just between 1980 and 1990, mi- believe, by the Anglos. norities have accounted for about two-thirds of Secondly, the second group, the Asian Ameri- cans, may be the most diverse group of our

94 100 minority groups. There are at least six groups ages and there's a great deal of diversity across within the Asian population that have a half a these groups that needs to be recognized. As a million members. Let's see if I can get them from demographer I am prone to use statistics, but I the top of my headChinese, Japanese, Korean, am also reminded of the law of statistical aver- Vietnamese, Filipino, and Asian Indian. If you ages, which was one time portrayed to one that if think about them for more than a minute or two, you have your foot in a bucket of boiling water you realize that oftentimes they have very little and the other foot in a bucket of ice water the in common other than a national original on the law of statistical averages says you are very continent of Asia. Diversity within that group comfortable. demographically is something that has charac- There has also been an increase in the num- terized the growth of minority population during ber of affluent black and Hispanic households the 1980s. over the last decade that has not been widely One aspect of this which probably comes appreciated, I think. Many times, I tend to focus quickly to mind when I mention those groups is on the segments of those populations that are immigration, and immigration has been a key most in need and most impoverished, but there factor in the growth of those groups during the is a growing number of black households that 1980s and 1970s, for that matter. Roughly have incomes of $50,000 or more, to use a rea- speaking, about 75 percent of the Asian and Pa- sonable cut off. The number of such households cific Islander growth in the 1980s was due to has increased by 75 percent over the 1980s, and immigration, and about half of the Latino there are now about 1.3 million affluent black growth in 1980s was due to immigration. A lot of households, to use that $50,000 cut off. people don't realize that almost a sixth of the Hispanics have also seen an increase of about African American population growth during the 80 percent in the number of affluent households 1980s was due to immigration from Africa and over the 1980s. In both cases, someof that in- the Caribbean. A number of people I've talked to crease was driven by larger populationsizes, but and some things I've seen suggest that those for- it's also driven by larger percentages of those eign-born minorities tend to be different or view groups moving intothe affluent categories. things differently than native-born minorities on There are some parallels in terms of political some issues and some (vocations. So that adds power that go along with those economic powers, more diversity to an already diverse, growingly a black governor in Virginia and mayorsin many diverse population. of major cities that are black or Hispanic. Partly because of the immigration of these Obviously this has a lot of implicationsit's new groups, I think there is a growing diversity an enormous topicand I just want to mention a of social and economic status within this minor- couple that occur to me as I think about this ity population, the 61 million people that we put topic and go from there. The first is that the together as minorities in, at least, statistical typical conception of American minority that terms. I think one conception of minorities, at most Americans hold in my view is no longer least a generation ago, was that they were uni- adequate. Most views fall into one or two catego- versally poor and powerless and that conception ries. I think the first one is the European model is no longer universally true. Certainly they where the Germans and the Irish and the Polish have higher, disproportionately high, poverty and the Italians came here and after a genera- rates, but there are growing segments that are tion or two, those differences became pretty min- certainly middle class, sometimes well off, and imal or indistinct, and that kind of melting pot raining in political power, certainly still under- image of minorities is one image that is often represented, but gaining nonetheless. used to think about minority populations. There's a couple of statistical points on this The second image is the one that I'll call the issue. black or civil rights image, the image of the Let me just mention that the median income 1950s and 1960s where minority populations of Asian households is about 15 to 20 percent were viewed as a universally oppressed and im- higher than that of Anglos in 1990. I want to poverished powerless group. I think neither one emphasize here that these are statistical aver- of those images fit the realities of the 1990s and

95 101 the new demographics of the 1990s. Thereare CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thankyou very immigrant groups, some of whom are doing rela- much. tively well. While some are moving, at leasteco- nomically fitting the melting pot image, there Statement of Evelyn Hu-Dehart, Director, are other segments within those same groups Center for the Study of Ethnicity and Race In that are native-born, impoverished, powerless America, University of Colorado at Boulder groups who aren't fitting into the melting pot MS. HU-DEHART. I am Evelyn Hu-Dehart image that has dominated one view of this from Boulder, Colorado, director of the Center group. The melting pot has not worked for them. for the Study of Ethnicity and Race in America I think we need to step back and realize the and also professor of history. complexity of the minority population as it exists I want to say that I may be the one personon in 1990 and reconceptualize what it means to be this panel who is an immigrant. I came to the a minority and perhaps reshape public policies United States with my family in 1959 before the to accommodate that reality. big wave of new Asian immigration. I am alsoa The second comment, actually a couple ofLatin American by profession. I teach Latin comments, has to do with intergroup relations American and Caribbean history. Now I direct and how this changing situation has affected the center, which has all the four major ethnic intergroup relations in our country. I think there studies programs. So for personal and profes- are two kinds of intergroup relations that are sional reasons, I am obviously very much in- important to talk about. One is the relationship volved and very interested in the changing de- between the majority and minority populations, mographics of this country, being a part of those and here I think this growth of the new minori- changing demographics personally. I think that ties, Hispanics and Asians, has forced some of the big story, it seems to me, in the changing the Anglo community, the non-Hispanic whites, demographics in this country are two that I'll go to rethink what it means to be a minority and to a little bit into: one is the enormous increase in think about their conception of minorities in the Asian American population and really rather ways that they hadn't a generation ago. suddenly. The second story which I think Gary The second kind of intergroup relations that Sandefur will talk about is this big jump in the are important because of changing minority de- Native American population, but I'll leave it up mographics is relationships among the minority to him to explain that one. groups. There certainly are some opportunities Now, the Asian American increase can be ex- for coalition building, but there are also some plained fairly easily. It's mainly through immi- tensions that often arise in those situations. It's gration since 1965, the result of several factors hard for me not to believe that those growing which we can also identify quite clearly. One is new minorities haven't had some role in elevat- the change in immigration laws, which until the ing tensions in Los Angeles and Miami and New middle 1960s had been based on national origin York and Washington, D.C., and that demo- quotas. Up until 1960 there were under 1 million graphic changes along with the economics thatAsian Americans of all groups in this county, accompany them are one of the factors in what's under a million. That, in turn, was a result of a going on in American cities, particularly during long period of Asian exclusion in this country the 1980s and into the 1990s. Obviously there from 1882 until the 1950s. Until, really, my fam- are a lot more implications, there's a lot more ily started coming over at the very beginning of complexity to the situation than these numbers the new Asian immigration, no Asians were al- portray, but let's stop there and let the other lowed to come to this country. In fact, Asian panelists take up those. Americans were the only people designated by race to be specifically prohibited from entering

96 102 this country. I think we should also bear in mind Singapore, and South Korea especially. So the that the U.S. naturalization law which was in big story then is this increase in Asian American effect from 1790 well into the 1950s specifically population, which you've heard from Professor barred nonwhite immigrants from attaining citi- O'Hare exceeds 100 percent. By the way, it's zenship through naturalization. Those are the been a sevenfold increase since 1960, from under historical facts to keep in mind. 1 million to over 7 million in that 30 years. What else has contributed, then, to the rapid The other thing that Professor O'Hare also increase in Asian American immigration since referred to that I want to emphasize is the enor- the 1960s? Another, of course, has to be the U.S. mous diversity in this population. It represents intervention and involvement in the wars in people from 20 to 30 different countries, not a Southeast Asia, which devastated societies there single language in common, not a religion in and created a kind of immigration that we call common, no culture in common other than the refugees. So, many of the new Asian immigrants fact that we come from a region, an enormous to this very day are not just immigrants in the region of the world, and a densely populated re- same tradition of European immigrants coming gion of the world that we call Asia. To further to American shores to seek new opportunities in complicate that picture in more ways than one, life and who come here voluntarily, happily, will- somebody decided to throw in the Pacific Island- ingly, etc. Refugees in general, and I can relate ers with this category, so that officially the cate- to that because my family were refugees, usually gory is Asian/Pacific Islander. I think it's because leave their homeland very reluctantly and usu- somebody discovered that the Pacific Islanders ally bear in mind that there is no going back if that is, people from the island nations and eth- things don't work out, oftentimes, because there nicities of Micronesia, Melanesia, and Hawaii are no homelands to return to. were left out when we chopped up the world in Finally, I think the third factor is something these groupings, so the Pacific Islanders were we don't think about very much and rather ironi- put in with the Asian Americans so now it's cally is the kind of postwar development that Asian/Pacific Islander American. But that adds has taken place in certain Asianparticularly another 13 to 20 ethnicities to this group with Southeast Asiancountries, a development that yet another set of languages, cultures, and reli- we seem to applaud and set up as examples for gions. As I said, the complications do not rest other developing countries to follow. I am specif- there. ically referring to the kind of development that Finally, another diversity which also must be has taken place in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and emphasized and which has been alluded to is the South Korea, for example. What's interesting socioeconomic diversity. We have images of boat about the kind of development that has taken people coming over; we have images of young place in these countries since World War II is Vietnamese refugees without a single family that while they have created dynamic economies member, young people in their teens drifting to and educational opportunities for their citizens, America in these rickety boats, who might have at the same time, they have also produced a even spent years in camps somewhere in Thai- brain drain from these countries. A fact of the land, whose schooling has been interrupted. We matter is the kind of economic development as- have those, but we also have Asians coming over sociated with so much of Asia also does not have recently with education, with professional and a place for very ambitious and upwardly mobile, entrepreneurial experience, highly ambitious, highly educated professional people because upwardly mobile, part of this brain drain that I much of these economies rest on manufacturing mentioned a while ago. and the kind of low-skilled assembly type of So what I would like to submit is that the best work that, in fact, does not provide professional way, and I think the most productive and fruitful personal satisfaction. So I think if you bear that way, to think about this broad, broad category in mind, it helps explain why so many immi- called Asian/Pacific Islander American is not the grants have also come here from places that we so-called "model minority model" which I think generally think of as places with dynamic econo- should be banned from our vocabulary because it mies like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, even obfuscates more than it clarifies. Perhaps a more

97 103 BEST COPYAVAILABLE useful way, if we need a model, is to think of the rean Americans, and we need to pay more atten- Asian/Pacific Islander population as a bipolar tion to new patterns of race relations. That, in population, that is, say the typical white Ameri- turn, of course, should help us formulate better can population, but even more so. The poles tend public policy in education, in welfare, in allas- to be so starka high pole at one end of Asian pects to take into consideration the changing Americans who are doing well in school, in their patterns of race relations. businesses and who are highly represented, par- Finally, I would like to suggest something ticularly in the small business entrepreneurial else, too, because I am so actively involved with sector, and in their professional lives and in this. I think that these changing demographics their income-earning abilities, etc. There is that and perhaps, in particular, the changing demo- other pole, the other side of the spectrum ofgraphics regarding Asian/Pacific Islanders af- AsianAmericans, whoaredropoutsfrom fects the tenor and the nature of public discourse schools, who are at or below the poverty level, in this country and especially on our university who are, for example, like the Hmong people campuses and in our schools. I am referring to from Laos, stillstruggling to even establish the increasingly heated debate over multi- themselves in this society having come from an culturalism. agricultural and what we call preliterate society, I think that it's unfortunate that there are a term I don't like, but what it suggests is they some people in this country from the very high- come from a society where the written language est reaches of our government down who choose was not very important. to characterize multiculturalism as "sixties radi- Let me end, if you will allow me to suggest cals imposing politically correct views on our some implications of what we've already shared innocent students," when, in fact, multicultural- with you regarding this Asian/Pacific Islander istsserious multiculturalistshave a very dif- population. Right away, to further complicate it, ferent kind of project. Perhaps if the Commis- the Pacific Islander group includes those who sioners are interested in that we could discuss are already American citizens, such as the that. Guamanians, the American Samoans. But furthermore, this question about multi- One implication of the work force we have to culturalism in America and especially in relation understand, and particularly in areas of this to Asian Americans is further complicated by the country such as the west California area, nota- international environment in which we're mov- bly that the work force will be increasingly char- ing and by, I think, Americans' confusion about acterized by these young Asian Americans. They this international climate. Again, I am thinking are already 3 million of California's population, particularly of the growth of the regional econo- but they are heavily urban concentrated and mies of Asia led by Japan followed by Taiwan, they are young in their age distribution. They Hong Kong, South Korea, etc., that are causing are largely of working age, and another factor no small degree of consternation for so many that's important, there are proportionatelymore Americans who don't know what to make of this. Asian Americans in schools, in that same school And in a most unfortunate way, and abetted by age group, age 18 to 24. More Asian Americans the media, and in some degree by the multi- of that age group are primarily and actively in- cultural debate conflate the issue of Asian volved in schooling and going from schooling Americans in this country with the rising eco- right into the work force. So that's one thing to nomic power of countries like Japan. So I think keep in mind. we will continue to see more, not less, confusion; The second thing you alluded to that I want to we will see more anti-Asian violence, anti-Asian emphasize is the changing pattern of race rela- racism, and more racial conflicts between Asian tions. I don't think we can afford to define race Americans and other Americans in this country. relations in this country anymore in terms of Thank you. black and white relations. That might have been CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very the dominant historical pattern, but it willno much. longer be. I think we all saw what happened in Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Sandefur, if you would go Los Angeles between African Americans and Ko- next, please.

98 104 Statement of Gary Sandefur, Director, So 37 percent of the Indian population lives in American Indian Studies Program, Institute for what we might think of as traditional tribal Research on Poverty, University of Wisconsin areas, either reservations or former reserva- at Madison tions, which means that the Indian diasporaif MR. SANDEFUR. Thank you. My name is Gary you want to use that phrasecontains over one- Sandefur. I am professor of sociology and affili- half of the Indian population. We haven't been ate of the Institute for Research on Poverty and able to do this with the 1990 census yet, but if director of the American Indian Studies Program you use the 1980 census and compare the reser- at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. vation population with the Indian diaspora, it's I had actually prepared testimony today about fairly clear that, in most respects, the Indians mobility and its role in the perpetuation of pov- who live outside the reservation and traditional erty among minority groups inthe United tribal areas are on average better off than the States. But I got a call yesterday from one of Native Americans who live in these traditional your staffers who was concerned that you might tribal areas. not hear very much about American Indians So what I would like to do is focus a little bit given the people that were going to be making on some of the problems confronting those who presentations, so I modified my talk to deal ex- still live in traditional tribal areas and some of clusively with American Indian issues and I the racial tensions that have developed recently. hope that's okay with everyone. The traditional areas that we're talking about CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Please proceed. were created during what is known as the "re- MR. SANDEFUR. As you've heard, the popula- moval and reservation era" during the 1800s. tion of Native Americans grew by around 38 per- This policy was designed to put Native Ameri- cent during the 1980s, which is a very large rate cans on land that had few natural resources, far of growth for a population that's really not that away from population centers. Evaluating the ef- influenced by immigration, although there are fectiveness of Federal policy in terms of achiev- Latinos who have come in from Central and ing its goals, you would have to say that this was South America who do consider themselves to be one of the more successful Federal policies in the Native American as well as being Latino. history of the United States because Indian res- This was a smaller rate of growth than you ervations are, in general, on very poor land, very found during the 1970s, when the population isolated and far away from population centers in grew by about 72 percent, so that in 1990 the the United States. What this has done is to cre- population of Native Americans in the United ate pockets of poverty and unemployment in States was around 2 million. The proportion ofthese traditional tribal areas, and created very this population that lived on reservations in few opportunities for business development. 1990reservations and trust landwas around In fact, one of the exercises I did with the 22 percent of the population. This is often a sur- 1980 census data on reservations was to look at prising figure to many Americans who view the some of the characteristics of reservations to see American Indian population as a reservation if they were similar to what people were calling population, but over the years' it's become in- underclass areas, the criteria that we use to des- creasingly less and less the case. There are also ignate underclass areas in the central cities. these areas that in the 1990 census were desig- What you find is that many of the reservations nated as tribal jurisdictional statistical areas, in the United States have the same kinds of which are part of Oklahoma, what's known as problems that you find in the central cities of the Indian Territory, and then tribal designated major metropolitan areas: high rates of dropping statistical areas in places other than Oklahoma. out of school, high prevalence of singleparent These are former reservations in which the Cen- families, low rates of labor force participation, sus Bureau now counts Native Americans. About very high rates of poverty, and high rates of par- 15 percent of the Native American population ticipation in welfare programs. There are a num- resided in these tribal designated or tribal juris- ber of points you could make about these kinds dictional statistical areas. of findings, but I think two of these are very critical. One is that reservationseven though

99 105 we're talking about a fairly small group of peo- secondary, and college educations on the reser- plereservations have serious problems that vations to kids who did not receiveespecially should not be ignored in Federal policy and that collegeeducation in the past. There hasn't been should be addressed by our country. a lot of careful research on the impact of these A second critical point, I think, is that what developments, and as a social scientist I am hes- are sometimes regarded as inner-city problems itant to say that these developments have sub- also occur in a much different social and cultural stantially and significantly improved educa- setting. So it's really not appropriate to think of tional attainment for Indian kids. But there is these issues as things that only affect the Latino some evidence regarding tribal colleges, for ex- or black population residing in larger metropoli- ample, that many Native Americans who would tan areas. There is obviously a very different not have gone to college in the past now are able social and cultural setting in which you find sim- to go to college because the colleges are located ilar kinds of problems. on their reservations. The issue that I wanted to bring up that is It's also clear that these programs are not re- creating a certain amount of racial and ethnic ceiving adequate funding. It's also caused some tension right now involving Native Americans is tension because some people see this as a new also a very important civilright that has form of segregation. The idea of pulling Indian emerged as a possible key to solving some of the kids, for example, out of local public schools and social and economic problems on reservations. putting them in tribally controlled schools is This is what is referred to as tribal sovereignty seen as a new form of segregation. andself-determination,principlesthatare Another issue that has become a source of poorly understood by many Americans. You may tension recently has been the gaming issue and all be familiar with tribal sovereignty; essen- the use of gambling. The Indian Gaming Regula- tially tribal sovereignty refers to the fact that tory Act of 1988, which is Federal law, governs Native American tribes have certain powers ofthe way in which types of gaming are agreed self-government that, in many ways, are similar upon. For casinostyle gaming, tribal-State to what States are allowed to do. They are sub- agreements are required. Tribes have been frus- ject to Federal law, Federal guidelines, Federal trated with the delays that States have created regulations, but States in which reservations are in reaching these agreements and have operated located do not necessarily have power or author- unauthorized gaming operations. The Federal ity or governmental authority over Indian is- Government, under the pressure of States, has sues. In some cases they may, and in some cases decided to crack down on these unauthorized they may not. gaming operations. This is creating tension over Self-determination is associated with tribal gaming and tribal sovereignty issues, and I am sovereignty and it's been the official Federal pol- very concerned about where this is going to lead. icy toward Native Americans since the mid- Finally, I think the Civil Rights Commission 1970s. Essentially it means that Native Ameri- does have a role to play in assisting tribal Native cans are allowed, as tribal groups, to set their Americans. One of these roles or one thing the own goals, establish their own priorities, run Civil Rights Commission can do is to point out their own programs. One of the problems now is that what are sometimes regarded as inner-city that sovereignty and self-determination have problems also occur in other social and cultural also become a source of tension between Indians settings,especially or specifically on Native and non-Indians in what those of us who study American reservations. Indians think of as Indian country, the places A second thing the Commission can do is pro- where there are large numbers of Native Ameri- mote educational efforts so that State officials cans. Let me give you two examples of both the and citizens understand the principles of tribal role of tribal sovereignty in helping to solve some sovereignty. I think this would ease a lot of the problems and the tension that it's created. tension in many parts of the country. Another One of the developments since the mid-1970s thing that needs to be done is to make sure that has been the development of tribally controlled these new tribally controlled schools and colleges schools and colleges. These provide elementary, have adequate funding. Thank you very much.

100 106 MS. BOOKER. Professor Denton? in is going to have a life or death importance to the outcome of their children. Statement of Nancy Denton, Professor of These neighborhoods have also played a lead- Sociology, State University of New York ing role in the history of our country, particu- at Albany larly our history as an immigrant nation. The MS. DENTON. Thank you. It's a privilege to be route of assimilation of all of the waves of Euro- here to speak to you today. I have given each of pean immigrants to this country was by living in you a copy of my remarks because I need to enclaves and cities, moving with a lot of their extract from them in order to keep up with our coethnics, moving to a better neighborhood, later timekeeper here. moving to the suburbs. Your own family history, A seldom mentioned factor in the myriad of many of you, tells the same story as these aggre- analyses of racial tensions resulting from the re- gate statistics. Now, the 1960 civil rights move- cent events in Los Angeles is residential segre- ment brought home to us very clearly the fact gation. For many Americans of all racial and that this process of assimilation, particularly ethnic groups, segregation has ceased to be a spatial assimilation, was not occurring for Afri- concern. Neighborhood integration is no longer a can Americans. prominent goal on Federal, State, local, or indi- The landmark legislation of that time, the vidual agendas as we collectively seek to deal 1964 and 1968 Civil Rights Acts, sought to ad- with other problemsa stagnant economy, de- dress this fact by outlawing housing discrimina- clining cities, health care costs, and the chal- tion, as well as employment discrimination. The lenge of assimilating these new waves of im- enforcement provisions of the Fair Housing Act migrants that you have just heard described to fell victim to the congressional bartering needed you. to get the act passed in the first place, but the Yet, the Rodney King verdict and the ensuing act symbolically signaled an end to residential riots, as well as the issues I just enumerated, are segregation in the minds of many Americans. intimately related to residential segregation in When data from the 1970 census showed ex- my mind. Residential segregation is one ofthe tremely high levels of segregation for African most salient features of U.S. society and we can Americans, a common explanation was that the use it as a barometer of urban life. I needhardly law hadn't had enough time to work. convince any of you that where you live is funda- When the 1980 census showed similar high mentally tied to success in life. In fact, the levels of residential segregation, we again looked neighborhood you live in is the primary means of at these data and started to take them more se- demonstrating that success to people that you riously, but at that point we were also faced with don't know. You tell them what neighborhood two other factors that were of prime importance. you live in. The growth of the new immigrants from Asia With your neighborhood come bundled other and from Latin America and other Spanish- amenities, and it is these amenities that form speaking areas had come to be astronomical. the relationship of why neighborhoods and com- Secondly, because of the effect of the civil rights munities can be so intimately linked to social movement, the effect of changes in the diversity, problems. With neighborhoods come the privi- particularly within the African American popula- lege to attend good or bad schools, exposure to tion, but within all of the minority populations, various levels of crime, access or lack thereof to the number of neighborhoods that were no health care services, varying levels of police and longer all white had declined dramatically be- fire protection, desirable or undesirable peer tween 1970 and 1980. Individual neighborhoods groups for children. I don't have to enumerate all could almost all point to a few members of a of these. The statistical task of measuring the minority group that lived in them. So, from a sizeof these neighborhood effects on actual neighborhood perspective, it appeared as though individual people is very, very complex and I integration was taking place, the black-white di- won't go into that today, here. But certainly most alogue was joined by an Asianeven though parents behave as if the neighborhood they live that's an umbrella terman Asian voice and a Hispanic voice, and so the segregation statistics

107 101 were interpreted in the midst of all these other body is ever going to see this kind of even distri- things that were going on. bution across all of the neighborhoods ina met- In addition, there were growing numbers ofropolitan area. In researching segregation in people, particularly African Americans, arguing 1980, we used dimensions of segregation that re- that residential integration was not necessarily ferred to evenness which I have just described, a good thing, that there were positive values to but also a separate dimension which just re- be gained from living with people like yourself ferred to isolation, how many people there are cultural maintenance, valuesthat there was that are in your neighborhood are like yourself; political power to be gained this way, and that it concentration, how small are your neighbor- was time to stop ignoring the central cities, that hoods; clustering, are your neighborhoods all these places should not be hell holes. side-by-side or are they scattered around like the As many of you know, we are just beginning to squares on a checkerboard; and centralization, see the results of the 1990 census. The Census are your neighborhoods all located near the cen- Bureau has calculated residential segregation ter city when the jobs are all in the suburbs. statistics for all of the metropolitan areas of this When using those five concepts of segregation in country and they released them on May 2, at the 1980, we found a core of selected metropolitan population meetings in Denver. If we look at res- areas in the Northeast and the Midwest where idential segregation as a simple measurethat African Americans were highly segregated on all is, reflecting just evennessdoes every neigh- five or four of those dimensions. This pattern borhood in the city have the same minority pro- was called hypersegregation, and it was not portion as the city as a whole? In 1980 the segre- found for Hispanics or Asians in any metropoli- gation of African Americans was 1.6 times that tan area. of Hispanic Americans and it was twice that of I have repeated that analysis for 1990 and I Asians. So these three large minority groups live have found that 14 of the 16 metropolitan areas in dramatically different residential worlds. that were classified as hypersegregated in 1980 When we look at those numbers for 1990, we remained so in 1990. A list of these metropolitan see that there have been declines, but the actual areas appears as table 1 at the end of my testi- segregation of African Americans was still 1.4 mony. times that of Hispanic Americans and 1.7 times Not only are the magnitudes of the changes in that of Asian Americans. When we use the ac- segregation small, but nearly half of the changes tual numbers, actual segregation indices, and we are positive, indicating that segregation on that look at metropolitan areas of a million or more dimension worsened between 1980 and 1990. people, in 1990, then in order to be evenly dis- Every single metropolitan area on the list, in- tributed across the neighborhoods in those cities, cluding Atlanta and Dallas, which are no longer 73 percent of the African American population hypersegregated in 1990, showed an increase on would have to move or change neighborhoods, at least one dimension of segregation. In Newark compared to only 54 percent of the Hispanic pop- and Buffalo, segregation increased on all five di- ulation and 42 percent of the Asian population. mensions. In Detroit it increased on four dimen- In Chicago those same numbers are 86 percent sions. I have some more summary statistics of for African Americans, 63 percent for Hispanics, how these segregation indices increased. and 43 for Asian Americans, and those numbers But there's even more bad news if you con- are all within one or two points, not percentage sider segregation at this level to be a bad thing, points, of what the numbers were in 1980. So for because we're not talking about clustering of our largest metropolitan areas, there has been small groups of people in a neighborhood. In five absolutely no change or very, very little change metropolitan areas, African Americans are hy- in residential segregation since 1980, measured persegregated now in 1990, but they were not in this simple way. hypersegregated in 1980. Since in 1980 we only But segregation is really more complicated studied 60 metropolitan areasbut the Census than just how evenly spread across neighbor- Bureau has now calculated numbers for all of hoods are people, and those of you who are fol- them, there are an additional 10 other metropol- lowing me are thinking, well, this is crazy, no- itan areas in the United States that can be

102 108 classified as hypersegregated now. So we have a worry that much about that being the detaining total of 29 metropolitan areas in the United factor for promoting residentialintegration, States where African Americans are experienc- given these high levels of segregation. ing drastic isolation due to residential segrega- Because of the bundling of amenities, promot- tion and living patterns. ing integration provides a way of attacking a Over 25 years ago the Kerner Commission, in whole bunch of problems at once, because when the summary to its famous report, used the you change the neighborhood, you are changing phrase, "our Nation is moving toward two socie- a whole lot of other aspects about that person's ties, one black and one white, separate and life. It's not just a single one-shot deal where we unequal." When we talk about the new immigr- say we are just going to improve the school, or ant groups who are moving into this country, it's we're just going to work on crime and law and tempting to think that we now need to increase order, or we're just going to try to find jobs, or the number of those societies beyond two. But we're just going to try to provide daycare. A sec- the statistics that I have just related to you indi- ond reason why I think residential integration is cate that it really is still two societies because, important is that we have a nostalgic myth in with high levels of immigration, you expect seg- this country that the immigrants all lived in regation levels of new immigrant groups to go up these segregated neighborhoods and then grad- because of the clustering upon initial arrival in ually moved out to the suburbs. In reality, when this country. Yet the segregation levels of His- we look at immigrant neighborhoods and we look panics and Asians not only are much lower than at the Asians and Hispanics today, those segre- blacks, but they did not go up very much be- gation indices never reached 50 or very seldom tween 1980 and 1990. The black segregation is did they reach that high. They were always low. at a completely different level. Most of the population of those immigrant If we look at underlying causes of this segre- groups did not live in those neighborhoods, and gation, income is an obvious cause. We don't the neighborhoods themselves were seldom occu- have the data for this for 1990 as yet, but in pied by even a simple majority of the group. Yes, 1980 we found that as income, occupational sta- it was called Chinatown or Koreatown or Greek- tus, and education of Asian Americans or Hispa- town or Little Italy, but those were because of nic Americans went up, their segregation went the clusters of commercial enterprises there, it down, exactly what you would expect. But it has was not because 95 percent of the people living not happened for African Americans. African there were Greek or Italian or Chinese. More Americans making $50,000 a year or more are, than 30 percent of the African American popula- in the aggregate, just as segregated as African tion in this country today lives in neighborhoods Americans making $5,000 a year or more. The that are more than 90 percent black, so that that interclass segregation within the African Ameri- is a very high level of segregation. can community is just not there to the same ex- A third reason that residential integration is tent that it is within the other communities. important to think about is the declining cities. I think that we need to think about these We are probably not going to abandon the larger numbers and what I want to close with is a few cities of our country, and this would provide a comments on why I think that dealing with resi- way of attacking some of the problems of the dential segregation can be a way of addressing cities, as well as attacking some of the problems problems of racial tensions and why it is import- of race relations. ant that we try to put it back on the national A final reason for promoting residential inte- agenda. Regarding issues of people's preferences gration comes, for me, from the American dream for what kind of neighborhoods they live in, itself. We can argue that changes in the melting within all groups there is a wide range of pot-ideology to accommodate cultural pluralism preferences. In any group you can find people are all to the good. We have just heard about the who are willing to live in any kind of neighbor- diversity of the minority community in the hood. People who feel that single-group neigh- United States and I am certainly well aware of borhoods are important can certainly have their that, but it still remains that we are one nation. way for a long time to come. So we don't need to Yet the situation that we are currently in

109 103 residentially clearly reveals two nations,one These are glossing over some of these differ- perhaps a bit less white than before, but the ences among groups, you're right. But we have other decidedly black. I think we have to ask studied all different kinds of cities, and within ourselves if that's what we really want. I thank almost all of the cities you still get this relative you. ranking that I've described. The averages tell CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank youvery you not all the richness of detail that you would much. The panelists have been very helpful. I like to know, but they certainly are not really will begin by asking Commissioner Ramirez to lying to you. put your questions. Remember that these are all population-based COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ.Well,thereare numbers so that the experiences of individual many questions. I have hesitated to ask for ex- persons will not necessarily reflect these. There planation on data presented about Hispanics be- are many people who are not experiencing these cause I do not want to be put in the posture of high levels of segregation. promoting that kind of one-view. But Dr. Denton, COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Well, I wasn't ar- you talk about a picture of Hispanic residential guing from that perspective. In fact, my sense patterns that is so far removed from my experi- was that Hispanics are more segregated than ence that I need to understand: were the cities the general tone of your presentation would indi- that you looked at primarily northeastern and cate, and the segregation lasts across more gen- midwestern cities, in which case you would have erations. If you look at Laredo, Texas, for exam- a very different picture of Hispanic residential ple, where Hispanics are 95 percent, 97 percent, patterns than you would have if you had looked of the population it's that complexity which has at the part of the world that I come from? troubled me as I have seen this story told sev- MS. DENTON. Yes, that's an excellent question eral times. I think that if we talk about the rela- and I actually skipped over a piece that you'll tionship between residential segregation and as- see in the testimony that addresses it in part. In similationbecause when you're talking about most of the work that I've done, I've looked at 16 the indices of improvement in the lives of partic- metropolitan areas, many of which are in the ular groups of people, you generally are describ- South and the West, and we have a completely ing a pattern of assimilation into other neighbor- different picture of Hispanics. The numbers IhoodsI would plead for this story to be told was presenting to you were averages which have with enough understanding of the different con- all the problems that Bill so nicely described to figurations, both of historical development and you. When you look at the residential patterns of of regional distribution of groups. Mexicans and Cubans, you find very different The story of the Northeast and the Midwest is patterns from the residential patterns of Puerto not necessarily the story of the Southwest and Ricans. Hispanic segregation is much higher in the far West. I don't want to spend all my time the Northeast and the Midwest largely because on that issue because there is much that is rich of the Puerto Rican population and because ofin all of your presentations and I appreciate your the black admixture among the Puerto Rican time and your effort. population. I would like to ask Mr. Sandefur about the When you look at segregation for these vari- original testimony that he has prepared. If it is ous individual groups, you will find that within in writing, we would be very pleased to receive it the Hispanic community, within the Asian com- as part of the record. munity, you will still see something that we In terms of this issue of diversity, we can look couldin Chicago we would have called color- to the antecedents of the particular nature of the lockthat the Asians that are the mostly highly American population, the historical antecedents segregated are the Asians from the subconti- in terms of a preference for European immigra- nent. The most highly segregated Hispanics are tion, the reality of not only Asian, but the exclu- those with the largest black admixture, namely, sion of African immigration as well, and at de- the Puerto Ricans. In New York City, Puerto mographic trends throughout the world that Ricans are much more highly segregated than probably impact as much as anything we try to Dominicans, for example. do in this area. It seems to me that when we

104 1 1 0 look at a global economy, the only thing we can projections especially if they involve specific be sure of is that the diversity in this country groups. and the rate of diversification is likely to in- COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Let me pass for now, crease. Have any of you who have done these Mr. Chairman. demographic projections done any work in terms MR. GONZALEZ. Could I just interject? I think of identifying what is the potential rate of diver- what I hear you talking about is what they call a sification of the American population? push-pull effect. One has to look at what's push- MR. O'HARE. I have not done any myself, but ing people out of the country and then what's I've seen several other people who have done it. I pulling people into a country, and without know- think the dilemma is to get to points where ing how that can change over the next 10, 20, 30 you're really talking about minority majority or years, then there's no way of really knowing those kinds of things. You're talking about 60, what's going to end up on this side. 70, or 100 years down the road, and there are so Ms. HU-DEHART. Could I say something about many things that could change in between. Some the push-pull though because, you know, that's things we have control ofimmigration, for ex- like the melting pot. We know two things about ampleso it's hard to put much meaning in immigration, we know about the melting pot and them in my book. about push-pull. Well, we know how to discredit I think the short run is pretty clear that we the melting pot, but I think the push-pull factor will continue to have this rapid increase in the also needs to be significantly reexamined. Tradi- nonwhite population just becausethey're a tionally, we think of those two factors as inde- young age group now, immigration policies will pendent of each other, as countries creating their allow more people from Latin America and Asia, own push factors and countries creating their and for unifications, and I think the recent im- own pull factors, and they just happen to coin- migration law, if I am not mistaken, had some cide very nicely for immigration to take place. provisions that would allow more immigration What I was suggesting earlier when I spoke from Asia. about how the United States creates, in some COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Butalsofrom ways through its global activities and interven- Europe. tions, both economic and politicalnot just the MR. O'HARE. Irish. I am not sure that an- United States, but other world powersactually swers your question, but that's, I guess, my create push factors in third world countries that thoughts on it. are not largely of their own making. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Go ahead. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. And pull. MR. SANDEFUR. I am just going to give you MS. HU-DEHART. And pull factors, that's right. one example of how difficult these kinds of pro- The pull factors we can see working, but I think jections are. During the 1980s there were a num- the push factors can also have external origins, ber of people whose projections showed that by at least initially, as well. It's not quite so simple 1990 the Filipino population would be the larg- to think of countries as sending nations through est Asian group in the United States. Yet, it their own internally developed push factors. You turned out in the 1990 census that the Chinese cannot just simply look at sending nations and Americans are still the largest Asian group in receiving nations and say what's happening in the United States. The reason was that the pro- the sending nation and what's happening in the jections did not take into account the increased receiving nations, ah-hah, that's how we explain level of Chinese immigration, especially from immigration. I think you have to look at all im- Hong Kong. When I've seen people apologizing migration globally to really understand it. Why for their projections, that's the excuse they give. are people leaving their places of birth and end- It's hard to know what immigration law is going up where they end up? That will be, I think, ing to be in the future and what the limits on a more productive, fruitful way of really under- immigration are going to be and what parts of standing a very complex, truly international the world the immigrants are going to come from phenomenon. 20 years from now. So it's really difficult to make MR. GONZALEZ. Yes, I hadn't focused in on the immigration, but one of the statistics that was

111 105 thrown out to me a couple of months ago ata for residential segregation among groups is dif- meeting that was really interesting was looking ferences in income among groups. If you don't at the population growth in this hemisphere of have any money, you're not going to be able to the U.S. versus other countries where the U.S. live in a half-million dollar house. Whenyou has been declining in terms of population look at segregation by category of income oroc- growth. You have all of these other countries cupational status or education, you will see that that are not only increasing, but increasing in as those characteristics, those personal charac- three and four times their present teristics, go up, the segregation of Hispanics or Ms. HU-DEHART. But not Europe though. Not of Asian Americans goes down. They are living Europe. in neighborhoods with lots of other people of the MR. GONZALEZ. I am talking about this hemi- same income and stuff. When you do those calcu- sphere. lations for African Americans and you put them MS. HU-DEHART. Oh, this hemisphere. I am in a graph, you get a straight line that African sorry, okay. So you're talking about anything Americans at very high levels of occupational south of the United States. status or income are virtually as segregated as MR. GONZALEZ. That's right. African Americans with low educations and low CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner income. Now these are aggregate numbers from Buckley. the 1980 census because we can't make the COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. No questions. neighborhood base calculation for the 1990 cen- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner An- sus yet. I am eagerly awaiting the data tape so derson? that I can do that. Then you have to ask why is COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Well, Mr. Chair- that so. Well, you have to rule out incomeif man, I went over a bit on the last panel, so I you're making $50,000 or more a year you've think I'll make up for that now. made it as far as incomeor if you have more CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You're free to go than 16 years of education. So then you're left over again, if you like. with preference or you're left with discrimina- COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Thank you, no. tion in the housing market. You go ahead. When you take any sort of preference survey, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I've heard some very you get a gamut of preferences among African disturbing facts, opinions, observations with ref- Americans. Most of them seem to center on the erence to the continuing impact of color. I think I 50-50 mark. They would like neighborhoods that heard someone on this panel say that although are about 50 percent African American and 50 blacks can enhance their educational and their percent not. You never get a preference poll that economic circumstances and be considered to be says 90 percent of the African Americans want to a part of the economic melting pot, that still live in neighborhoods that are all African Ameri- doesn't render them acceptable in residential or can. So that preference isn't going to go very far social circles. Is that what I heard? for explaining this aggregate segregation num- MS. DENTON. In the aggregate statistics, they ber of the high 70s out of 100. So then you're left still don't have a segregation score that's as high with racial discrimination in the housing market as the segregation score of blacks with much or, you know, white racism, if you willthe idea lower educations, occupational status, and in- that evenafteran African American has comes. It's a statistic, sir; it wasn't a statement achieved the high income or high educational on acceptability, which is a value judgment. status, the opportunity to live where they want CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER.Could youtalk is frequently denied to them. about that value judgment just a little more The recent HUD study of discrimination in then? the housing market revealed that there was sub- MS. DENTON. The American dream of working stantial discrimination against Asians and His- one's way up, so to speak, is that with education panics as well. But when you look at aggregate and with a good job, with more money, one would patterns of where these people are actually liv- have residential freedom. One could buy a house ing as opposed to measuring instances of dis- in a nice neighborhood. One of the explanations crimination against them, you do see lower

106 112 levels of segregation for the whole Asian urn-, my colleagues were here. I met with members on brella group and the whole Hispanic umbrella both sides of the aisle in the House and the Sen- group than you do for African Americans. ate, and they all seem to be saying we want you A couple of examples, if you will: in 1985 there and your panel of experts down there, if you're was a lawsuit filed in Chicago. An African Amer- going to file a report out of this or any other ican had the mortgage on a half a million dollar hearing that are going to have statutory impli- house and it took, what, 5 years before he could cations, we have to come up with some defini- take occupancy of that house? In December tions. How would you define what you're trying there was a photograph of an African American to do and where you're trying to take us? What family in USA Thday. It was a photograph they is civil rights in the 1990s and the year 2000 and had been asked to take down off 'the wall to beyond? That's what I am asking. make their house acceptable so they could sell it, MR. O'HARE.I'lloffer a couple of quick and this is routine practice, I am sure. thoughts, I guess, along those lines. There are CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I am thinking of a probably three prongs to that. I don't know if it's neighborhood in a planned community where I civil rights or not, but one is its moral leader- bought property in 1970, and at the time this ship. I would say that people need to come out particular neighborhood had about 85 black fam- leaders need to come out stronglyagainst all ilies in it. We still own that piece of property in forms of discrimination. Lacking that strong that particular planned community in that par- forceful reaction opened the door for all kinds of ticular neighborhood, but that neighborhood is bigots and meanspirited people. That's one thing almost 80 percent black now.I don't knowthat is necessary at all levels of government whether they're being guided into that one par- forceful reaction to any kind of racial discrimina- ticular neighborhood or not, but everyone living tion and bigotry. That doesn't cost the taxpayers in the neighborhood is comfortably middle class, a dime. if you want to put it that way. But if you go to Second is an enforcement of antidiscrimina- this particular planned city or ask someone if tion statutes that people, whether they're Hispa- they live there, you can almost bet that they've nic or Asian American or African American or been congregated in that one community and yet whatever, should have the same civil rights, the the developer has a reputation of doing all he same access to public services, the whole gamut. can to keep that from happening, but it's hap- Any violation of those civil rights should be pur- pening right under his nose. sued by the government. That's the first time I've heard some data to Third, I think there is the notion of ameliora- suggest that. One of the sayings that we have in tion. What do we do for the groups that are the community, a brother is a brother is a struggling at the bottom? African Americans are brotherthere's another term they usemoney probably the prime example, but American Indi- notwithstanding. ans are another example that the melting pot Let me ask each of you to try this. It seems has not worked for those people. There certainly that as we head into the 1990s and the year is a long history of oppression, public policy be- 2000, the 1960s definition of civil rights simply ing used against those groups. I think what we won't apply. The definition we have right now need to do in a glib kind of statement is combine doesn't seem to be applicable. Could each of you minority status with economic need or social give me some indication of how we should be need, perhaps. Just because you're a minority trying to define it now based on all of this diver- doesn't qualify you for special attention, need sity and this sort of thing? What is the definition programs, but if you're a minority and have suf- of civil rights in today's environment? fered the consequences of the past oppressive ac- Let me give you my reason for that. We're tion, that is the criteria I would use for that fork hearing it said that the civil rights leadership is of the civil rights program. out of step, they're old fashioned, the bridge CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. they've been traveling on ought to be burned MS. DENTON. I certainly agree with what Bill down, and let's start all over. That's what I am just said. I guess I would have two different ap- trying to get at. I just came from the Hill while proaches though. One is that I think we have to

113 107 realize the important role that public policy think we would have solved a lot of our problems played in the creation of a lot of these patterns I earlier. I am afraid it isn't just that and I will described. The suburbs were created and the give you a historical reason why. You know, race ghettos that the blacks live in were created by is not something, in fact, we're born with. It is Federal housing and Federal highway policies, something constructed and created. Let me be there's no denying that. So there is need for a really specific. Federal role to address some of these issues just Today we tend to think of Asians as an accept- as, no doubt, local use of Federal programs able race, acceptable in the sense of having the helped to create the situation in Laredo that right attributes to be mainstream Americans. your colleague referred to a little while ago. Pub- That is one reason why perhaps you will find lic policy has been used in a discriminatory man- more Asians incertain neighborhoods that ner to contain minorities and that has to be rec- would otherwise not accept other people of color, ognized, and I think that gives an argument in because of our behavior, and educational attain- favor of a Federal role in addressing some of ment, etc., etc. But if we have a sense of history, these problems. we know that 100 years ago, there was the idea The other thing that I think we have to talk of a yellow peril and allthat. Asians were about, when I talk about neighborhood integra- deemed to be so totally unacceptable, so totally tion and we talk about coalitions, we have to inassimilable, so inherently un-Americanizable start talking about all groups being involved. I that they should be barred from even entering was talking about segregation of three major mi- this country. This idea, a racial identity for As- nority groups from Don-Hispanic whites, but ians, which is very interesting, has fluctuated when you look at the segregation among these wildly over time, over at least 100 years of various groups, Asians are segregated from Afri- American history. can Americans as well; so are Hispanics. Asians So, I for one am not willing to check and raise and Hispanics are segregated from each other. and substitute class, because I think that's too This coalition has to join all of these groups to- easy. Nevertheless, we need to,I think, and gether. Part, of the reason why the old civil rights Brother O'Hare and those comments, we do have movement isn't working is that essentially it to think about how sometimes class should play started at a time where there really were only a role in determining civil rights policy. two large groups and so blacks were arguing The other idea is that which the Vice Presi- with whites, who were the dominant group in dent raised again yesterday, this whole idea of most instances, for a piece of the pie. Whites still individual responsibility versus society's respon- control a lot of power, but the other groups are sibility. There is a lot, I am afraid, of wishful important and they are large, and we're just thinking of an America that is either bygone or missing a golden opportunity, I think, for build- never was. That is the America that was con- ing some of these coalitions, which I think can be structed of these wonderful families and we built in neighborhoods as a good starting place. know that not to be the case anymore, so what is CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. the point of bashing families that are no longer MS. HU-DEHART. I think there are two sets of the way we wish them to be. balances that we seem to be struggling with that I would wish that we, instead of yearning for have already been referred to in this discussion. those kind of ideals that we don't have and may- One is the proper balance between race and be we never had themwe certainly don't have class, and the other one is the proper balance nowwork towards helping, particularly the between society's responsibility and individual children, who don't have the benefits of what our responsibility. I don't know what the proper bal- Vice President wishes every child has. It raises ance is and I think we need to be thinking more the question of whether it is more a case of and be more creative about grappling with those. strictly individual responsibility for pulling our- Let me just share some thoughts I have. I think selves up by our bootstraps or whether it's a it's too easy to think as some social scientists collective responsibility. In the end is America and policymakers think that it's not a race issue still going to be resting on this original ideal of anymore, it's just class. If only it were that, I individuals making their way strictly through

108 114 individual merit without interference from such black have much different perceptions of what's things as discrimination or racism, or should we happening in the world. be thinking more of all of us collectively strug- The studies that have been done by Larry gling through? Maybe that is still an old civil Bobo who is at UCLA and James Kluegel who is rights idea which I am not ready to abandon, in at the University of Illinois suggest that most part, because being a historian, I feel that the white Americans think that the civil rights idea of America as made up of individuals who movement was very successfuleven more suc- succeed simply has not held true for many cessful than I was presenting itthat it solved Americans. If historically that has not held true, most of the race problems in the United States, then looking into the future, our solutions can- that there really aren't any barriers to the suc- not be based on strictly individual solutions. cess of African Americans, that the reason that CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. You African Americans have not been able to get want to give it a try? ahead is because of their own individual failure MR. SANDEFUR. Well, I agree with many of the to work hard enough or to be motivated enough things the other panelists have said. I do think to be successful. The majority of whites sub- it's a mistake to beat up on the civil rights move- scribe to what Evelyn was referring to as this ment because in many respects it was very suc- individualistic explanation for why minority cessful. I grew up in rural southeastern Okla- groups aren't successful. The majority of blacks homa andIremember coloredbathrooms, have a much different perception. They perceive colored water fountains, African Americans eat- continued barriers in American society to their ing in the back rooms of restaurants, Indians advancement, and they perceive that public pro- being shot by police, and people not thinking grams designed to help them are not being very much of it. effective. One of the real sources of racial tension Those things don't happen; those things have right now is these very different explanations of changed dramatically. The legal barriers to vot- inequality. ing, the increased political representation, the My own point of view is that the average Afri- declines in traditional prejudice among whites, can American is much closer to having a true all of these are positive outcomes of the civil perception of what's going on than the average rights movement. I think it's important not to white person. One thing we need to do is educate lose sight of those. white Americans as to the continuing problems The civil rights movement did not solve all of of residential segregation, continuing barriers in the problems that minority groups face in this the labor market, and other problems that are country. We obviously still have lots of problems facing minority groups now, because I think they that we have to contend with, and you've heard just don't understand that the civil rights move- many people tell you about them today and ment did not solve all the problems. again tomorrow. Obviously, we need to try new CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Let me ask you to approaches and new strategies and new ideas, try one more for me. At the rate at which the and I think there are a number of new ideas out cost of education is escalating, what's going to there that are worth trying. happen to any kind of vision of enhancement of One thing that does really concern me that's minorities as a whole, marginal and full minori- shown up in some of the work of sociologists has ties in particular, in getting the kind of educa- to do with trends and prejudice over time and tion and getting the kind of training required to especially the way in which whites and African be moving forces in this one work force that's Americans explain persisting inequality. There emerging? really hasn't been much research on the atti- It seems to me I saw a videotape of an urge to tudes of any other racial and ethnic groups and buy U.S. bonds as a savings mechanism and there's been limited research on the attitudes of they pointed out that one way to make sure your African Americans. But there is some research youngster gets a college education is to buy on how whites and how blacks explain continu- these bonds, but the person doing the pitch also ing inequality in American society, and it's obvi- said that a college education by the year 2000 or ous that the average white and the average shortly thereafter will cost $20,000 a semester. I

109 115 don't know where they pull that number down, the Civil Rights Commission to take a look at but I can tell you right now, you have to have an that. I think part of the backlashand maybe I education in order to even benefit from votingam exaggerating, but I am so deeply involved rights, housing rights, and all those things. Is it with itpart of the multicultural project is pre- realistic to think that an education is going to cisely to open up doors of education and make it cost $20,000 a semester? What can we do to get much more accessible to people of color, in the it stopped? name of affirmative action, in the name of cer- Ms. HU-DEHART. Well, we're not getting a tain kinds of fellowship, scholarship opportuni- raise this year, so you got mine. ties. But those programs have all been caught up CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. What do we do, to in this backlash, and we are in danger of losing get that escalation stopped if that's the case? what little we have that has proven to be effec- MS. HU-DEHART. We're all in major universi- tive and in so many ways that have opened the ties. doors to education. To me, it's not really funda- MR. O'HARE. Let me offer a thought that mentally a question of cost at this point. It is touches an issue that is complex and somewhat still a question of access and access of the most sensitive. It brings the private sector that we simple and fundamental nature, of making sure haven't really talked too much about into this that our universities are open to all Americans, picture. If business needs workers, trained work- and that we're not abdicating our responsibility ers, you can bet there's a lot of pressure to make at the major universities and pushing them sure that those workers get there. And right down the system into the community colleges, now, to oversimplify a great deal, you can get which simply will not be in a position to absorb trained workers from abroad or you can put them all. more money into educational programs or pri- Also, if you think about the dropout rate, how vate sector programs or whatever it is. much resources are we wasting in this country Now that's an oversimplification, but to some because we bring children into our school sys- extent there's an issue there, I think, between tem, but we cannot finish them, we cannot send the immigration policies of the country and the them out the end of the pipeline. So it seems to conditions of native-born minorities, blacks in me that before we worry too much about $20,000 particular, but others as well. It's an issue that I a year, we need to worry about why we can't haven't seen a whole lot of discussion of amongst even use what we have effectively and effi- public policy people, people who make these ciently. rules, but I think it's an issue that is part of the CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. topic that you're talking about. COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Well, Mr. Chairman, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Anyone else? I think that Professor Hu-Dehart has touched on Ms. HU-DEHART. I am about to send a daugh- a point that we should all keep in mind. Right ter to college so I know what you mean by the now the rate of attrition of minorities who enter $20,000. Of course, we do know too that there's a higher education is such that if we were to in- great variety of education in this country. I think crease recruitment by 20 percent, our productiv- what's happening to education, first of all, is ity of that increased recruitment would be mini- that there is a push down effect that most people mal. I hope that sometime over the course of the of color, if they are going to college at all, are next several hearings that we have that we de- going to the community colleges, so that there's vote a panel to this issue very concretely. Also, tremendous pressure on the community colleges, the reality is that higher education still reflects which cannot bar any high school graduate from a great deal of separateness between groups. entering their doors, and that's where we need to Some 56 percent of all Hispanics and Asians focus too. We need to look at where the entry who are in higher education are in community point is for those Americans that we feel must and junior colleges, 47 percent of all African have access to education and put some money Americans are in community and junior colleges, there. It's a matter of distributing the money too. the number is closer to 60 percent for American Secondly, when I mentioned earlier that whole Indians, and another 20 percent of African question of multicultural backlash, I would like Americans are in historically black colleges.

110 116 Basically, we still have a very, very separate sys- and should they fail to live up to this new stereo- tem of higher education and the resources corre- type, they also fall prey to the larger society's late with who's in those institutions. disapproval. So perhaps what you're suggesting I am going to come back to this because it's is these patterns of what we generally call ste- bothering me more and more as the day pro- reotypes. gresses. A number of the panelists talked about Stereotypes themselves also have a history the new minorities. I think that what Ronald that is quite interesting and moreover can be Takaki and certainly my own work reminds us is manipulated in ways far more complicated than that these groupsAsian Americans and His- perhaps we give them credit for. We manipulate panics and American Indiansare historical mi- these stereotypes or the larger society manipu- norities that have experienced de jure segrega- lates these stereotypes for purposes which are tion and discrimination at the hands of the not always immediately apparent. I don't think State. I think that one of the distinctions about it's such a simple thing anymore to say we know civil rights policy is that at the point at which what the historical patterns of discrimination the State has caused, through its laws or its are so that we can actually prepare Americans, practices, that discrimination and the discrimi- say, these new immigrants. For example, if I natory effect, you have a very different kind of were preparing new Asian immigrants, I would situation than you did in terms of traditional say, well, don't forget this in the pattern of exclu- white immigrant groups, who came into this sion and the residential segregation in China- country and suffered hatred and suffered dis- town or whatever or even in internment camps, crimination, but that was not institutionalized etc., so this is what you need to be prepared for. into the laws of the State. So I think that's an That may not be the best kind of preparation important concept as we think about redefining because as new Asian immigrants come to this or holding on to old definitions of civil rights. country they are all of a sudden told that you are I think also that historical discrimination in- super smart, particularly good in science and stitutionalized practices, which are difficult to math, and you'd better live up to this new ste- reverse, which today have their effect on groups reotype we've created for you. We want you to who may be newcomers to this country and succeed so that we can prove that America therefore were not objects of historical discrimi- works, and if you don't succeed, you've failed us nation in an individual sense, but who are facing one more time just like you failed us in the past. institutions that are still governed by historical What I maintain is that even though Asians patterns of segregation and discrimination. I'd are now "beneficiaries" of a positive new stereo- like to know if any of the members of the panel type, nevertheless it's a stereotype. We have to have done any work that would shed light on be wary of new patterns of behavior that are this proposition? created with sometimes an insufficient, if not a Ms. HU-DEHART. What I was suggesting, if totally inaccurate, relationship to the reality of you talk about race, is that in one sense what I history. By that token, Asians are still a "minor- hear you say is that we inherit these patterns, ity" because, regardless, they are not accepted as but what I am also suggesting is that it's getting individuals. They are still being characterized as to be complex because some groups, and this is a member of a certain group with a group char- why I see the Asian Americans having this inter- acteristic. est in history, is that somehow they are being People ask me, what is a minority, and how do somewhat singled out and pulled out of the cate- we have persistent definitions of minorities that gory of minority and made into an exceptional seem to linger through history? One way is minority as if to prove a point. So that in some whether we are subject to group characterization ways Asian Americans are not inheriting some of or whether we are allowed, in fact, to have a real the old patterns, but rather are forced to live up range of behavior and characteristics. Up to this to a new kind of stereotype that has very little point Asian Americans are not allowed what relationship to history. What has been created Anglo Americans or Euro Americans are permit- and the tracing of this creation is quite interest- ted. ingbut are made to live up to a new stereotype

117 111 So, in a round about way, I am trying toan- with one another. For many Americans, I think swer your question and I think it's interesting, the notion of individualism means that insome but at the same time we have to be wary of these ways people are responsible for whatever hap- other hazards. pens to them, but it's also supposed to mean that CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Of course, if they everybody is supposed to be basically thesame live up to the stereotype too well, they get the and your group identity is not importantor sig- backlash from the other side. nificant, that your ethnicity or personal history, MS. Hu- DEHART. Well, we already see the that all of these things should just be discounted backlash. in that your own hard work, initiative, drive, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You're right; they and so forth should establish your place in call it Asian bashing and that sort of thing. American society. But by pushing individualism, MS. HU-DEHART. Exactly. So you're damned if you undervalue the importance and value of race you do and you're damned if you don't. Further- and ethnicity in racial and ethnic communities. more, the fact that Asians are accepted in some What I hope is that we would be able to create a of the country's finest schools in large numbers society which allows people to be economically and in some of the most exclusive residential successful,politicallysuccessful,sociallyac- areas, partly because they're acceptable and cepted, and also retain their racial and ethnic partly because they can afford the housing and identities and their ties and commitments to some of those amenities, has allowed some their communities. That's my hope. Americans to say "we're not prejudiced and we're CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Yes. not racists; we've got Asians living among us." MS. DENTON. I think the old assimilation ide- Asians are used in that sense to say that "I don't ology appeared to imply a lot of giving up and it have any problems with people who are not implied a lot of sameness, but it also implied white because we live next door to a"and by movement and I think we don't want to give up the way the word often heard still is not Asian the movement part of it. We want people to get American, but Orientals. When I hear the word better educations, to move to better neighbor- Oriental, I think of a vase or carpet. To me that hoods, to have their kids go to college, even if is a real indication of how people think of Asians. they did not. Maybe my ideal is that we have to CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Anyone else. Carl, learn to value the diversity in and of itself, that there's still a few minutes left. it's a better party, it's a better school, it's a better COMMISSIONER RAMIREZ. Actually, Mr. Chair- store, it's a better restaurant, if there are all man, I do want to come at this just for 2 min- different kinds of people in it than if all of the utes. We have heard talk of melting pots and people are of one race or ethnic group. People some people talked of tossed salads. I like to have to just be willing to say it's better. I prefer think of a kaleidoscope now, because everytime that. you look at it from a different angle, the whole I know I am uncomfortable if I go to a restau- thing changes. We are often asked, what is a rant and every single person in it is of one race model for social interaction and civic and eco- or one color. It doesn't deny that there would be nomic interaction we could have for the future. I small intimate neighborhood places that were am not convinced that the traditional patterns of collectivities of one group, but just that valuing assimilation are possible or desirable, but I just the diversity as a good, just in and of itself, just wondered if any of you had any thoughts on because of the diversity part. what that model might look like over the course Ms. HU-DEHART. I would like to just very of the next 30 to 40 years? quickly suggest that I think that all Americans MR. SANDEFUR. Well, I guess I have hopes for must learn to be bilingual and multilingual, bi- what it will look like. I think American society is cultural and multicultural. We are probably the a very exciting place in terms of race and ethnic- most monolithic, in one sense, country of this ity because we do have so many different groups size or any size in the world and any one of us of people, some of whom were here in the begin- that has traveled immediately recognizes that ning and others who have come at various fact. So to build on what Nancy and Gary said, points, and we're all trying to learn how to live to work towards that ideal, all of us must value

112 118 our own traditions and culture, and also acquire We have these contradictions or these ambiv- someone else's in some measure whether it is as alences yet to be worked out. We have to decide, simple as learning another language or what- collectively as a nation, that if we mean what we ever. say about diversity and all that, it has to be For example, I speak five languages, which is reflected in the way we educate children and an interesting thing because of the reaction I bring up a new generation of Americans. get. People think that's marvelous, but at the CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I want to thank same time if you look at how second language each and every one of you for sharing your views acquisition is totally undervalued in our school with us. I am sure I speak for the panel and system, then you know that really isn't a value. members of Commission when I say you helped Even though most Americans seem to admire us a lot. We know exactly what to recommend. people who seem to speak more than one lan- Thanks again, thanks very much. guage, we're not putting our money toward that. [The proceedings were recessed at 6:30 p.m.]

119 113 Proceedings racial, ethnic, and other social tensions through- Morning Session, May 22, 1992 out American society. As each of us knows only too well, racial and ethnic tensions are not new VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. If I may call this in this country, but for various reasons they have hearing to order. Good morning. We are just a become more conspicuous and more frequent little bit behind, so if we can expedite? General during the last decade. We have all read and Counsel, would you call the witnesses? heard about the racial and ethnic tensions in Bensonhurst, Chicago, and Seattle. We are all Multiculturalism Panel also aware of the escalation of racial and ethnic Ms. BOOKER. I would like to call the first tensions on our college and university campuses, panel of witnesses, Mr. Anderson, Ms. Futrell, and we are beginning to become much more Mr. Royal, Ms. Scott, and Mr. Wilkins. Mr. aware of increasing tensions in many of our high Chairman, each of the witnesses has been in- schools, and in some instances, in our middle vited to speak for up to 10 minutes before the and elementary schools. Commissioners ask their questions. I would like Those tensions are expressed in many ways, to begin with Ms. Futrell. through verbal and physical abuse, as well as through social, economic, and political isolation. Statement of Mary Futrell, Senior Consultant Some of it is related to the structure of our edu- for the Quality Education for Minorities cational system and the curriculum we teach to Network our students, and to the social and economic con- MS. FUTRELL. Good morning. I am Mary ditions that separate persons from different Futrell, a senior consultant for the Quality Edu- backgrounds and cultures. Allow me to use the cation for Minorities Network, which is a non- time I have been allotted this morning to speak profit organization in Washington, D.C., estab- about education and, more specifically, about lished in1990 and dedicated to improving multiculturalism and racial/ethnic tensions. education for minorities throughout the United There are more than 100,000 elementary and States of America. secondary schools in the United States of Amer- The network is a focal point for the imple- ica, and there are more than 3,000 colleges and mentation of strategies to help realize the vision universities in this country. When we look at the and goals set forth in the report of: Education elementary and secondary schools, those schools That Works: An Action Plan for the Education of are responsible for educating the 47 million stu- Minorities in this country. The report was issued dents in this country. The children who attend in January 1990 by the MIT-based Quality Edu- those schools represent a wide range of racial cation for Minorities Project and is the result ofand ethnic groups. Increasingly, higher percent- 2 years of extensive contacts and traveling ages of these students are coming from racial throughout the United States of America to talk andethnicminoritybackgrounds.Harold with minorities about what they perceive to be Hodgkinson from the Institute for Educational the problems related to the education of minori- Leadership has predicted that by the year 2000, ties in this country. more than 30 percent of all the school-age chil- I would like to express my appreciation for dren in this country will represent language and the opportunity to participate in this hearing on racial minority groupsmore than 30 percent. If Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Com- current trends continue, according to Hodgkin- munities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimina- son and the National Commission on Children, tionA National Perspective. It is my under- by that same time, less than 8 years from now, standing that thispanelwilldiscussthe more than 50 percent of all school-age children interrelationship between multiculturalism and in the United States of America will come from racial/ethnic tension. Your decision to hold hear- families living in poverty. ings on these issues at this time is extremely To give you a very concrete example, in Alex- important, not only in light of the recent riots in andria, Virginia, where I taught for almost 20 Los Angeles and tensions in other urban commu- years, the makeup of the student body has nities, but also because of a sharp increase in changed dramatically. When I started teaching

114 120 in 1963, the school system was divided along study. There was another one conducted of racial lines of black and white. Two years later, I school-age students. Basically, what that study was teaching black and white students. I started found is that the vast majority of students said out teaching all black students. Two years ago I that they had, at one time or another since they went back to Alexandria to visit the high school had been in school, been the victim of a racial or where I taught and I was shocked to see the an ethnic incident. But what was more shocking dramatic changes which had taken place in that was that 60 percent of them said if they came community. The community has barely 10,000 upon such an incident taking place, they would students, and yet with that small population, we not report it to an adult authority. Another 45 have students speaking more than 40 languages percent said if they came upon such an incident, in the school. It is a very affluent community, they would probably join in. I found that particu- but in many ways Alexandria represents the eco- larly shocking. nomic and racial diversity in America, more so These findings are similar to a study on eth- probably than any other community in the nic images which was released last year. In that Washington metropolitan area. study,the participants indicated that they Students come into the classrooms represent- viewed blacks and Hispanics as being more apt ing every racial, every ethnic, every cultural to be on welfare, to be lazier and less patriotic group that is known to us. They represent differ- than their white counterparts. The irony was ent genders, nationalities, geographic regions of that the report was released the same week that thecountry,as well asdifferent economic a similar study was publicized documentingthat groups. In other words, the schoolsmore than blacks and Hispanics represented approximately any other institution in our societyare repre- 40 percent of the Desert Storm troops, although sentative of the pluralism and diversity which we make up only about 20 percent of thetotal we often describe as America. And yetschools population. I was particularly struck by the fact mirror many of the problems we read and hear that the people said that we were less patriotic, about, problems that we fear in our adult society. and yet we were far more highly represented in As I often say to my colleagues, what we see in that invasion than anyone else. society, we see in the schools first. So many of I cite those studies to underscore how preva- the tensions we are experiencing in the larger lent racial and ethnic stereotypes are in this society, we have already seen those tensions be- country, across all age, racial, and ethnic groups. gin to escalate in the schools. Earlier I indicated that the tensions which are For example, earlier this year the People for pervasive throughout our adult society are also the American Way released a study which it con- reflected in our schools. Those tensions are not ducted dealing with the attitudes of black and always played out in the form of verbal epithets white students or black and minority students or fist fights or using weapons. They arealso towards each other. I understand that you had reflected in the way our schools are structured, someone from People for the American Way here the curricula that students are offered, how they to testify, and so what I say they perhaps said. interact with one another during the school day, But that study found that 56 percent of white and how they are taught. youths indicated that white people have reason For example, although the 1954 Supreme to be afraid to walk in black neighborhoods and Court decision, the Brown v. Board of Education, linked black Americans to images of drugs and Topeka, Kansas, case, legally ended separate violence. Conversely, 68 percent of the blackand unequal schools, many schools remain ra- youths surveyed, and 52 percent of the Hispan- cially and ethnically divided today. In far too ics, said that discrimination against minorities many schoolsinAmerica,studentsattend in school and in the workplace is the norm. They schools that are as segregated today as they expect it. The target population for that study, were 30 years ago. As a matter of fact, a study by the way, covered an age range of 15 to 24 released by Gary Orfield indicates that Hispan- years old. So these are young people. ics are more segregated than any other group A study released a year or so ago agreed or within our schools. concurred with the People for the American Way

121 115 EVen in schools thatare desegregated, the of the teaching professionto reflect the diver- tracking system creates a structure in which sity which is America. students of different racial, ethnic, and economic The effort toreflect diversity within the groups seldom interact with one another during schools, however, is not unique to this period of the school day. I came face to face with this real- our history, but rather reflects a struggle which ity a few years ago when my son and daughter, has been part of the American agenda for most who were fortunate enough to be in the gifted of this century. During the last decade efforts and talented program in Fairfax County, indi- have been made to focus on infusing multi- cated that they never saw another black student culturalism into the curriculum as a means of or Hispanic student in class. The only time they enhancing the quality of education for all stu- saw other blacks or Hispanics was when they dents and to more accurately reflect the true were changing classes, when they were in a contributions of our nation's people. music class or a PE class, or during lunch time. But, unfortunately, the debate surrounding They were the only two blacks and there wereno multicultural education has been polarized, and Hispanics in those gifted and talented programs. I would have to say it has been polarized toa That is in spite of the fact that the school has large degree by the media. In recentyears, a more than 1,500 students and that the student chorus of strident voices has launched an orches- population is very diverse. trated and well-publicized attack on the move- Tensions are also exacerbated because of the ment to infuse content about ethnic and racial differences in the curricula the students are groups and women into the school and univer- taught in school. Contrary to what most adult sity curriculum. Those advocating multicultural Americans believe, there is no common curricu- education in the schools have been accused of lum in the public schools. What students are being antiquality education and anti-American taught may differ dramatically across the aca- values. demic, general, and vocational tracks in which Allow me to first share with you the definition they are placedwith minority and low-income that we at QEM use to define multiculturalism students disproportionately placed in the lower and multicultural education. When we use the tracks. The academic disparities are played out term "multiculturalism," we are not simply talk- later in life when many of our young people dis- ing about race or ethnicity. We are referring to cover that they do not have the skills or the racial,ethnic,political,religious,economic, knowledge to be competitive in the economic, po- class, geographic, and gender-based characteris- litical, or the social arenas of our society. Those tics which define the American people. We use tensions are heightened when students, year the term "multicultural education" to mean edu- after year, attend schools and are exposed toa cation that values pluralism and cultural diver- curriculum which does not acknowledge the plu- sity and enhances equal opportunity within ralism and diversity which represents America. schools, and thus within our society. We are very Our ignorance as a society and as individuals much aware of the fact that there are some who about the history and the culture of America has would advocate the Afrocentristic point of view contributed, I believe, to the sad state of affairs of having separate classes, programs, or even which we face today, a state of affairs in which schools established for designated groups of peo- communities are increasingly isolated, increas- ple. But QEM believes that the pluralistic or in- ingly afraid of other communities, and increas- fusion approach should be used in our schools. In ingly armed against the enemy. other words, multiculturalism should be inte- Traditionally, schools have been seen as one grated into every course at every grade level and if not the primaryinstitution responsible for every student should study it, not simply those Americanizing people and making us into one who happen to be black or Hispanic or Asians or nation. However, in recent years, as thecom- women. We believe that it should be in the sci- plexion of America has continued to change, de- ence classes, the mathematics, the English, the mands have been made for the schoolsparticu- history, the geography, the economics, and all larly in the curriculum area and in the makeup classes and should reflect the contributions of all people in our society.

116 122, Our position on multiculturalism is that it Finding ways to fairly and equitably address must help all people understand thestrength those issues is critical to the future of America. and the beauty of America's diversity. Equally However, the greatest fear, the greatest concern, important, our goal is to improve the qualityof we should have is that we arestill unable to education all students receive, as opposed to break out of the racial and ethnic past which has making people feel good. We believe that if been part of the history of this country. young people are able toacquire a quality educa- I believe, as the great philosopher Pogo said, tion, they will feel good about themselves. There- "We have found the enemy, and it is us." Our fore, we would demand that whatever is put into greatest fear is not an invasion or an attackfrom the curriculum be of the highest scholarship, some external force. Our greatestfear should be and in the development of staff and program that the internal tensions paralyzing us will im- preparation for teachers that they must have the plode and destroy us as a nation. training as well. Schools can help each generation to better un- We believe very strongly that the ethos in derstand who they are and the contributions each school must be one which encourages mul- which all groups have made to the building of ticulturalism, not only within the curriculum, this great nation. Efforts to enhance racial and but among the students and among the staff. ethnic harmony as well as political, social, and Therefore, the staff must reflect the pluralism of economic equality can be achieved if all of us our society. Staff members mustbe able to work personally commit ourselves to making it hap- with all of the students in the school. In orderfor pen. So far, I am sad to say, wehave not lived up this to occur, teachers must have access to to that commitmentwe simply have not.These teacher preparation programs and staff develop- hearings, I believe, are a step in the right direc- ment programs that will enable them tofunction tion and QEM is prepared to work with youand successfully in a multicultural teaching and anyone else who would like to see ushave a learning environment. And let me also say that more harmonious society. that is for all teachers, and not simply minority VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you very teachers.Simply being a minority teacher much. doesn't mean you can teach all minority kids. It Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Royal. also means that in light of the fact that 95 percent of the teachers in this country are notmi- Statement of Robert Royal, Vice President and norities, they are going to have to learn how to Fellow, Ethics and Public Policy Center work with minority students and students from MR. ROYAL. My name is Robert Royal. I am different backgrounds just like minority teachers the vice president and a research fellow atthe have to do. Ethics and Public Policy Center here in Wash- Let me close by saying that schools alone will ington. The Ethics and Public Policy Center is not solve the problems we face as a society.The an independent researchorganization that occu- tensions are perhaps not as obvious as the vio- pies itself with a broad range of publicpolicy lence we saw in Los Angeles, but they are perni- issues. I am very pleased to be here todayand cious, and they are as deep. Nor are they always have a chance to testify before this Commission. expressed in the form of fires or shootings or I suppose the only claim to expertise that I looting. The tensions are present in the way we can make before thisCommission is that I have talk to each other, how we treat each other injust finished a book on the controversies sur- the simple day-to-day activities, which either rounding the 500th anniversary of Christopher bring us together or divide us. They are present Columbus's arrival in the New World. Although in the frustrations we experience when we know for years I have followed educational issues and our qualifications are comparable toothers', but certainly have followed the question of multi- are denied opportunities becauseof race or gen- culturalism, I would like to focus my remarks der, or where we happen to live. They are pres- primarily around some of the discoveries I made ent as we face increased unemployment and pov- looking into the Columbus questions, discoveries erty and homelessness, and they are presentin not only about Europeans coming tothe New formsof unequal educationalopportunities.

123 117 World, but discoveries about Native Americans, Now opposed to that is something that I and about Africa, and some larger issues. would regard as a more pernicious form of multi- I would like to start out by saying that while I culturalism and within this pernicious form agree with a fair amount of what Mary Hatwood there may be some glimmers of some good things Futrell just said, I would like to makea distinc- as well. But I want to be very clearfrom my tion. The distinction that I would like to draw is own experience in looking into the Columbus between what I would regard asa "good" multi- controversyhow I would draw the line between culturalism and a "bad" multiculturalism.I what I regard as "good" and "bad" multicultural- think in the United States we understand pretty ism. well what we would regardas "good" multi- We have to recognize that if whatwe are talk- culturalism. This is a country, which, for all its ing about in multiculturalism isa program, a blind spots and all its social limitations in the curriculum in schools, that whatwe are after various years that it has been in existence, has then is not primarily social harmony. In educa- at least in theory wished to make a place for tion, our primary goal ought to be to teach people from as many different cultural back- truths, to teach skills. Socialization isa very im- grounds as possible. I think that is an American portant part of the schools, but if the schoolsare ideal that all of us share in and can call multi- not based on truths, I cannot see how theycan culturalism, if we wish. I think Ms. Futrell is claim to be schools in the first place. One of the exactly right that, for example, minorities have things that is very disturbing to me, having shown themselves to be very patriotic, not only looked into the recent controversies about Co- in the Persian Gulf War, but in a variety of other lumbus, is that a great deal of falsehood has ways. The primary problem that we face as a been introduced into discussions of these issues, people is not so much a question ofsome radi- and falsehoods made even worse by inflamma- cally new paradigm as it is to live up toour own tory rhetoric about European groups and about ideals. certain things that occurred. The British essayist and humorist G.K. Ches- This wholesale denigration by certain multi- terton once visited the United States and said culturalistsand I want to make clear I am not that he found the United States to bea nation condemning everybody out of handit isso with a soul of a church. I think that isan import- striking that the Harvard historian Stephen ant place for us to start out, because Ameri- Thernstrom recently addressed some of this. He cansalthough I think there is a kind of Ameri- found in one particular work aboutas much bal- can culture and almost American typehave to ance and judiciousness as we might expect in the recognize that basically what our multicultural history of the United States written in the Soviet society rests on is a series of tenets,a series ofUnion in the darkest days of Stalin's rule. This democratic tenets. We all, I think, pretty well is from a person who has taughta course, I be- understand what those are: That allmen are lieve, in black history in the United States. He is created equal. That we are a government of not by any means an uncritical celebrant of the laws, not of men. And that we all submitto a European part of our cultural heritage. I think democratic process, rather than break ourselves that stern warning ought to bea sign of some off into separate groups or seek political advan- concern to us, that in our schoolswhich are tage in that fashion. That democratic creed has, freewe may be submitting ourselves to the of course, been imperfectly implemented and fol- types of totalitarian temptations that in other lowed throughout our history. But I thinkwe countries, unfortunately, have been imposed by ought to start, at least, with the idea thatwe government. have been enormously successful in bringinga I think it is important to understand what great number of people into the American tent. I Thernstrom was saying on that point. He is not meet with people from various countries all the saying that people who just disputea Eurocen- time and they are astonished thatwe can some- tric reading of history or who make criticisms how manage to live together, despite thevery about Europeans are wrong. Thosecan be made, profound problems that we all know exist. and I make them myself in myown book. But I think what we have to recognize is thatsome of

118 124 what is passing under the banner of multicul- sion was looking for an environmental message turalism is simply bad history, bad history in and thought that Chief Seattle would be a good that it falsifies the record, bad history in that it spokesman. Ted Perry, not wishing to deceive is misused in current controversies. I would say anyone, put these words into the chiefs mouth. that, in particular, this should be of interest to Unfortunately, this gives an impression of Na- the U.S. Civil Rights Commission because I re- tive American people that I think is going to be gard it as a kind of further form of imperialism. false. Those same sentiments were picked up When diverse peopleswhether they be Native later by a very popular children's book that is Americans or African Americansare told mis- currently on the New York Times best seller's list truths about their own historical pasts, they are called Brother Eagle, Sister Sky: A Message from told this for ostensibly good reasons, ostensibly Chief Seattle. When the illustrator was ques- good social reasons in the present. But they lose tioned about this dubious attribution to Chief their heritage yet again. They lose their heritage Seattle, she said, "Basically I don't know what yet again, because the heritage is redefined to he said, but I do know that the Native American kind of fit what is currently relevant. people lived this philosophy, and that is what is Let me give you an example of what I mean. I important." I find that a disturbing imperialism. have been astonished in my research into this The chiefs real views do not seem to matter. book in the great diversity of Native American What his people believed does not seem to mat- cultures. I used to think that there was a great ter. What Native American culturesthought deal more harmony among them than there was, about in the past do not seem to matter, just as but in fact, it is a diversity quite astonishing, long as they contribute to something in the pres- and it deserves a great deal of study. I think no ent. one on earth could possibly ever encompassthe In point of fact, Chief Seattle was a baptized variety of cultures that existed. But very often Roman Catholic. Harsh as it may be for certain this great diversity and even particular cultural groups to hear it, he heldeight slaves up until expressions of it, particular tribes will get forced the time of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclama- into a contemporary mold. A front page story in tion. My impression is that he was a rather wise the New York Times in the last month or two man who had some interestingthings to say gives an example that I would like to just briefly about red and white relations, but I think that it the tell you about. is very important for us to recognize that, in All of us have heard of Chief Seattle, who was desire to repudiate some shameful incidents in an Indian wise man livingin the Pacific North- America's past, we do not go and create another west in the 19th century. Earlier this year,in dishonorable episodeand that is to submerge April, the Earth Day organizers sent around a what the actual historical record was for current letter of Chief Seattle's, which expressed some concerns. concern about the environmentand the ways in I found in the course of this Columbus book which white men were destroying the environ- that there are many interesting things that have ment in his time. He said, in fact, "I have seen a been pointed out by multiculturalists and other thousand rotting buffalos on the prairies left by critics of European legacy. But I think it isalso the white men who shot them from a passing important for us to recognize that what happens train." in most multicultural presentations is that there Now that is a true historical fact. There were is an idealization not only of Native American, many buffalo slaughtered by white menfrom but also of African American, history that par- passing trains. The falsehood here, though, is takes of the same sort of later imperialism that I that Chief Seattle never said those words. He have been talking about. Native interactions may have had the sentiment, and Idon't know with one another were not always harmonious that we know that for a fact or not. In fact, those and quite often they were, in fact, based on tri- words were written by a film writer, a man bal and group rivalrieswhich I am not sure as named Ted Perry, a Texas script writer for a a nation we want to endorse.I don't think we 1971 film produced by the Southern Baptist want to in any way endorse separatism and tri- Radio and Television Commission. The commis- balism in modern day America.

125 119 I could go on and talk a bit aboutsome of the for the last few years about multiculturalism things that I picked up from the African in Ameri- the school and university curriculumshould be can side of this, and I will be happy to respond to read as an expression of ethnic and,especially, questions later, but let me just conclude withan racial tensions in this country. Multiculturalism observation about the New York State multi- usually means attention inour teaching to the cultural report that was proposed for curriculum historical experiences of racial and ethnic differ- revision. I have to disagree with Ms. Futrell.I ence in American history, and to the fundamen- don't think that the inflammatory nature of this tally different perspectives and points ofview was created by the media. It was actually cre- these experiences have created. ated by the people who did the writing them- The debates may seem academic in theircon- selves. One of the contributors said that it would cern with history and culture. Indeed, some have be a good thing if Western culturewere to disap- argued that they are a way of avoiding discus- pear from the face of the earth; it would be a sions of the hard realities of poverty, discrimi- good thing for humanity as a whole. I think that nation, and segregation faced disproportionately is a quite extreme and quite dangerous thingto by African Americans and other minoritypopu- say in an inflammatory set of social circum- lations. stances. I think it is more accurate tosay that the For all its failings, the kinds of things that debates about multiculturalismare debates have attracted people to this country, like the about how to understand and analyze the reali- rule of law, like opportunity, arevery important ties of minority group experience ina dominant in the world and very rare in world history. The Anglo Protestant culture; how to teach future New York State multicultural report called itself generations to think about those realities, to One Nation, Many Peoples, a Declaration of Cul- evaluate them, and perhaps even to change tural Independence. Let me just remindyou them. At stake are the meanings ofour national after the last time someone wrote a declaration history, our identity as Americans, and perhaps of independence we fought awar over it. I think most important of all, our understanding ofour- we want to be very careful that in our sensitivity selves as active citizens in a democratic society. to one another's past, and in our desire to make There are at least four positions. I would dis- all of our cultures better represented inour his- agreeI don't think there are two but four posi- tory books and in our teaching, that we do not tions, at least, in the debates about multicultur- actually induce some of the same kinds of ten- alism. The first argues for acommon American sions and outright violent conflicts thatwe so cultural heritage. The second advocates cultural desperately are trying to avoid. pluralism. The third represents ethnocentrism VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thankyou. or cultural nationalism. And the fourth, the posi- Ms. BOOKER. Ms. Scott? tion I would like to support, isone I call the MS. SCOTT. Interdependence. Madisonian or the democratic position. MR. ROYAL. Oh, is it "interdependence"? I The first positionthe one thatargues for a thought the New York nines story said "indepen- common American cultural heritageaddresses dence." racial and ethnic tensions by minimizingor denying them as ongoing features ofour history. It, Statement of Joan Scott, Professor of Social therefore, charges multiculturalism with calling Science, institute for Advanced Studies attention to difference and, thereby, producing MS. SCOTT. My name is Joan Scott. Iam a divisiveness. Articulated by an alliance ofcon- historian and professor of social scienceat the servative and liberal historians, this position Institute for Advanced Studies in Princeton, stresses the commonality and cultural homoge- New Jersey. neity of America. "Within any single country," I guess my comments speak to the question writes Columbia University historian Kenneth raised by Mary Futrell about the integration of Jackson, "one culture must be acceptedas the multiculturalism into the curriculum, and they standard." In this view the imperative of unity focus on the question of how to accomplish that overrides questions such as, "Whose standards integration. The debates that have been raging define this 'one culture'?" and "Whatare the

120 16 6 costs of imposing them?" It eliminates voices of sameness of us all cannot take account of the protest and dissent by labelling them "particu- conflict and tensions that stem from our differ- larist," in opposition to those who sounded what ences. is defined as the universal or common theme. The second position in the debate on multi- The opponents of multiculturalism dislike its culturalism, the pluralist position, recognizes emphasis on groups, believing instead that the the importance of group identities, treating them story of America is that of a shared community as the permanent traits of enduring culturaldif- of individuals benefiting from democracy. C. ferences. This position is probably the dominant Vann Woodward approvinglycites Woodrow one these days, articulated by the popular press, Wilson's warning to new immigrants: "You can- by television commentators, and the new "multi- not become thorough Americans if you think of cultural" textbooks. Associated most often with yourselves in groups. America does not consist in calls for tolerance of diversity and for pluralism, groups," says Wilson. This, Woodward says is this approach explains difference largely in "the historic theory of America" developed by terms of a group's heritage and tradition. In its "Americans themselves." best manifestations, the pluralist version of mul- That such an assertion is contradicted by the ticulturalism introduces the notion that there social conditions in Wilson's own timesoldiers are different points of view: AmericanIndians do were separated by race and employeesby race, not think that Columbus "discovered" America, ethnicity, and genderis irrelevant for Wood- for example. It also brings to national attention ward. Yet for those people who did not fit the previously marginal or invisible literary and ar- pattern of the representative American citizen tistic forms and expressions, such as the extraor- white, male, middle classas it has been de- dinary creativity of African American women picted by political leaders and traditional histo- writers, to take only one example. rians, group identity has been an unavoidable, In pluralism's worst manifestations, group undeniable reality in our nation's historynot identity is made a matter of regional costumes because color or gender or ethnicity has an in- and exotic foods or of unusual "hobbies" pursued herent transcendent meaning, but because the by ethnic children; it has little to do with the structure and operation of institutions, the political or historical experience of these groups, teachings of churches and schools, the practices an experience usually ofexclusion and discrimi- of governments and employers all have defined nation. Most serious, the proponents of plural- people as members of groups and, on the basis of ism assume that an appreciation of different those group definitions, treated them differently heritages and traditions will reduce ethnic and and assigned them unequal places in society. racial tensions by itself; intolerance is assumed This experience of being defined as different to stem from a simple misunderstanding of from some norm (the experience of discrimina- someone else's necessarily differentpoint of tion and exclusion) is not something added on to view. one's fundamental being as an individual; it is But tolerance, after all, means suspending an intrinsic aspect of one's subjectiveidentity disapproval or dislike; and one's power to ex- because it is part of the context within which one clude or discriminate based on that dislike, the lives, part of one's history. The ideological com- ability to tolerate rests on the superior position mitment to individualism by the opponents of of one group over another. This meaning of toler- multiculturalism suppresses analysis of the hier- ance is completely ignored by pluralists,who archical structures that define groups and pro- most often present tolerance as a reciprocal rela- duce group identities; so, too, individualism ef- tionship, rather than an unequal power relation- faces racial and ethnic tensions, the hierarchical ship. In the attempt to reduce tensions through structures they generate, and the social and his- toleration, the sources of tensions are overlooked torical significance of those tensions. or underestimated. The problem defined by the opponents of mul- Yet, ethnic and racial differences are not ticulturalismis a worthy one: how can we reflectionsof innatequalitiesortimeless conceive of an American community? Their at- heritages; they are produced in specific contexts, tempt to address it, however, by insisting on the at specific times, and produced as a relationship.

127 121 Difference becomes important socially when de- nant story. When Molefi Kete Asante, a professor fined as a deviation from some assumednorm. at Temple University, focuses analysis on "Afri- (Irish workers were thought to be inferior to cans as subjects of historical experience," he other white ethnics in 19th century cities;wo- finds that "our paths are different;we did not men workers were thought to be incapable of come to this country on the Mayflower....Afri- acquiring men's skills; blacks were considered cans did not see a mountaintop of possibilities, children needing the guidance and control of but a valley of despair upon arrival. Out of this whites.) history we have constructed a reality thatcan Furthermore, differences among groupsare neither be minimalized nor trivializedas we conceived as unequalsome groups are taken to work towards the common good." Asante and his be better than others. The form of social organi- colleagues are rightly skeptical about integrat- zation and the exercise of political power take ing this perspective fully into what he calls "Eu- place in terms of these differences. The experi- rocentric" history, because that history has typi- ence of difference as inequality leads not so cally been written from the perspectiveof much to benign diversities of cultural practice, whites, and it has treated minority historyas but to conflict and contest about rights and jus- decidedly less important, if it has treated it at tice, politics and history; to viewpoints so differ- all. ent that they cannot be resolved into variations For ethnocentrics, multiculturalism means on a single theme or a harmonious chorus of the coexistence, as separate bodies of knowledge, multiple voices. of different cultural perspectives. Although it is If we want to understand racial and ethnic hoped that many different groups will learn tensions and to begin to resolve them, we must about each other's different perspectives, the pri- be willing to accept the fact that in a multicultu- mary audience is expected to be members of the ral society such as ours, there is contradiction particular culture itself. The drawback here is and conflict, and that it stems from the inequali- that separate stories will tend to remain too sep- ties that are built on and that also build differ- arate, circumscribing the field of knowledge so ences among groups. that structural relations among groups are ob- The third position in the debate on multicul- scured. Ethnocentric history assumes that the turalism, most often labelled "ethnocentrism"or choice is between assimilation, with the loss of "cultural nationalism," brings previously mar- attention to distinctive group perspectives, and ginal histories to the center of the story. The separation, with its validation of the integrity point is to understand racial and ethnic tensions and uniqueness of the group's experience. From from the perspective of those who experienced this viewpoint, Balkanization is preferable to in- discrimination and to right the balance of long visibility. neglect by recognizing the contributions to his- But what if integration in the sense of assimi- tory of previously excluded individuals and lation to a shared perspective were not the goal? groups. Ethnocentric history challenges the uni- What if we could conceive of a multiculturalism versal claims of received historical wisdom by defined in terms of contradiction and conflict,as introducing another perspective on the past,a well as of consensus and compromise? What if point of view which sees the worth of what has the community of Americans was thought' of, not been excluded, and which explicitly criticizes the as a homogeneous body of shared ideals and val- blindness of historically dominant perspectives. ues, but a heterogeneous, necessarily conflicted Such a shift in perspective has invigoratedaca- association of sometimes competing interests? demic discussions and revived critical interest in What if our history was the history ofour con- issues once thought to be closed, among them flicts, of the ways in which ethnic and racial ten- questions about the so-called origins of western sions came into being, persisted, and were some- civilization or about African contributions to timessuccessfullyresolved,sometimesleft early scientific and mathematical discoveries. unresolved? Ethnocentrism insists on the independent sta- That kind of history is the goal of the fourth tus of a particular group's knowledge and on the positionwhichIwilltake one second to impossibility of including its story in the domi- describe to youthe one I endorse, theone that

122 128 might be called the Madisonian or democratic President Johnson to Watts in the summer of position in the debate on multiculturalism. 1965. This approach assumes that Americans have . I am going to speak from the perspective of always been divided in one way or another along having taught now for 6 years students who are lines of race, ethnicity, religion, gender, class, primarily white. The result of my observations of and ideology. In contrast to those who argue that these students and what they bring to the class- community must always be unified and homoge- rooms, some of them when they arejuniors and neous,itsproponents take seriously James seniors in college, is that the educations that Madison's notion that conflict among what he they receive in this society totally unfit them for called "factions" is essential for guaranteeing lib- citizenship in a society as diverse and problem erty, that such conflict is the markof true de- plagued as our own. mocracy. History, then, is taught as aseries of I agree almost totally with the comments that conflicting interpretations, not as a body of re- Professor Scott has just made, and what I will ceived truth. In the words of the authors of the say really could be consideredalmost an exten- New York State Social Studies Syllabus Review sion of what she has said, although, God knows, and Development Committee, in the reportthat she will not want to take responsibility for what was called A Declarationof Cultural Interde- I am about to say. pendence, they say, "because interpretations At the risk of ripping asunder the deep and vary as experiences differ, amulticultural per- long friendship I have with my colleague and spective must necessarily be a multiple perspec- friend, Dr. Berry, I will begin by saying that I tive that takes into account the variety of ways agree with Vice PresidentQuayle. I agree with in which any topic can be comprehended."For him that, in fact, what we suffered in this society this to be more than a celebration of pluralism, and what precipitated the disturbances in Los which assumes that we are all different in the Angeles, where I was yesterday, is a poverty of same way, students must learnthat there are values. I would also say that it seems to me that inconsistencies and discrepancies between ideals the Vice President of the United States is a and reality, and they must learn, by historical prime example of the need for multiculturaledu- example, of the "real possibility of successful cation in this society. struggle on behalf of freedom." This kind of his- The view that some people take in supporting tory, the report argues, will help students tobe- the idea of multicultural education is that it is come democratic actors with astake in the fu- somehow necessary to repair the injuries done to ture and constructive roles to play. minorities, the notion that racism only hurts In a society in which less than half the elec- blacks, Native Americans, Hispanics. torate normally votes, in which politiciansand As a matter of fact, the social scientists' brief news analysts talk about aid tocities as a lost that was submitted to the Supreme Court with cause in a presidential campaignbecause "the the Brown cases, which were decided 38 years voters aren't there" in the cities, thiskind ofago this week, made the pointthat racism in- multiculturalism might help realize the long- jures whites. Now it happens that Chief Justice held goal of making America a more democratic Warren only chose to cite the other half of that and a more egalitarian society than it now is or proposition, that racism injures blacks. But has ever been. those who wrote the social scientists' brief be- Ms. BOOKER. Thank you. lieve that the point that racism injures whites was equally powerful andimportant, and we Statement of Roger Wilkins, Professor of were very disappointedthat the Chief Justice I History, George Mason University only chose to emphasize one half of their point. PROFESSOR WILKINS. My- name isRoger see that damage every day.White students come Wilkins. I am professor of history at George into my classes with the belief that they are Mason University. I have a long and a varied standard human beings and that any deviations work history; it includes having been director of from them and their cultures, no matterhow the U.S. Community Relations Service in the deprived their culture-may be, are deviations to 1960s and a part of the team that was sent by

123 129 the detriment of the individuals who don't share These are the facts of American distress, their background. American pain. They are the facts that underlay I see black students come into my classes, and the explosion in Los Angeles. But they were not sometimes Hispanic and occasionally Asian stu- a factor in the presidential campaign; they were dents, struggling through the invisible sludge ofnot issues that the press pushed upon the candi- the racitsm in this society that is loaded with the dates because these people were invisible. Then belief that these youngsters are substandard. I the explosion occurs, and people say, "Well, why see them encounter the attitude from other stu- don't these people act differently? Why don't dents and sometimes professors in, "Well, what they have the values that upper and middle- are you doing here, in our place, in our public class people have? Well," they say, "because fam- university here?" And it all adds up to an atmo- ilies have fallen apart." That is where Iagree sphere in this society that now, 50 or so years with Vice President Quayle. after the publication of Ralph Ellison's great I believe that there is no social program in novel The Invisible Man, still points at the truth this world that can do for a child what a fairly of the central insight of that novel. Essentially effectively functioning family can do, but the minorities, but particularly blacks, and particu- Vice President stops there and, consequently, larly poor blacks, are viewed as substandard foists upon the American public a relentlessly people who are not worthy of consideration, stupid and incredibly irresponsible analysis of thought, time, and Los Angeles is a terrific ex- the riotbecause his view is that the responsi- ample of that. bility for family, breakup has to do with the sex- Deindustrialization has been ripping through ual attitudes and mores of the people of south the United States at an incredible rate in the central Los Angeles. past few years. According to William Spriggs, an You cannot have families that are healthy and economist with the Economic Policy Call Insti- functioning without jobs. It does not work. And tute, the United States has lost 2 million indus- the jobs in places like south central Los Angeles trial jobs in the period 1979 to 1990. Those jobs, have been disappearing, going south to Mexico, as everyone knows, are the jobs that the un- across the Pacific Ocean, or just kind of evapo- derclasses of eastern, southern, and western Eu- rating as a result of the casino capitalism prac- rope used to get a handhold up into American ticed in the 1980s. society. They are also the jobs that poor blacks The poverty of values in this society is that we from the South used to get a handhold up into could practice casino capitalism, that the admin- American society. They are, for example, the jobs istration could resist, for years, any raising of that my family used when coming from apeas- the minimum wage; they could force a diminu- ant background in Mississippi to get a handhold tion of the value of welfare benefits and still turn into the middle class of this society. But deindus- around and argue that the problem in these trialization was barely noticed before the Bush communities is that the values of the people who recession of 1991 because it hit blacks first and live in the communities don't work. The fact is, if hardest. Dan Quayle and the people with whom he works Consider the fact reported by the National were not so ignorant about the full humanity of Academy of Sciences a couple of years ago, that the people who live in those communities, were from 1969 to 1986 black men 25 to 34 withouta they not so ignorant of the fact that everybody high school education lost about 33 percent ofwho hits depression and recessions and loses their earning power. That loss deprived them ofjobs begins to disintegratefamilies begin to the capacity to support a family of four above the disintegrate, alcoholism goes up, suicide goes up, poverty line. Or consider the estimate of a UCLA child and spousal abuse goes up, among white sociologist that 50,000 jobs have been lost in people as well as black people. Places like south south central Los Angeles over the last three de- central Los Angeles have been not in a recession, cades, or the Census Bureau estimate that but in a depression, for the last 10 years. 40,000 youngsters 16 to 19 in Los Angelesare Nobody but an ignorant person, therefore, out of school and out of jobs. could make the comments that the Vice Presi- dent of the United States made the other day.

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130 And nobody but a horribly miseducated public were equals, European nations and Indian na- could take such ignorance and deal with it as a tions were involved in a process of exploration reasonable public discourse. where whites and Europeans could trade their Until we find a way in our society to respect culture of tools, horses, medicines, written liter- all human beingsand that means respecting ature with Native Americans for Native Ameri- them first in the curriculum to which our young- can crops, philosophy, religion, cultural prac- sters are exposedwe will continue to suffer tices. That type of exploration would be a fair foolishness out of the mouths of our public fig- one. Those types of trades would be a fair one. ures, but much worse than that, gross, awful But that is not the legacy of this country. tragediesnot like the outburst in Los Angeles, The legacy is a legacy of exploitation in which which is a mere manifestation of the daily pain the dominant nations exploited American Indian and horror suffered in such communities. We reservationsand AmericanIndianpeoples will continue to suffer the daily pain and horror through wars, through diseases, through broken that you don't have to go across the country to treaties, and, in fact, reduced our population find. All you have to do is go about a mile and a from 2 million to 300,000 in 1900. Two million half from here, up to Shaw, to find pain, suffer- people in a diverse culture were here in the ing, anguish, which shames our nation, which is United States prior to the arrival of Columbus, invisible because we won't teach ourselves and and that was reduced in many ways through our children about our common humanity. this history of what has been called the "Century VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you. of Dishonor," which is really even longer than Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Anderson. just the 1800s. That policy continued on in the 1900s through the official government policies of Statement of Mike Anderson, Executive termination, of assimilation. So American Indian Director, National Congress of American governments today have that legacy from the Indians U.S. Government of those policies. The one sin- MR. ANDERSON. My name is Mike Anderson. I gle fact that remains, though, after this 500 am the executive director of the National Con- years of encounter with Europeansand non- gress of American Indians. Our group represents Native societies and governments is that we over 140 American Indian tribal governments have survived. We have a sovereignty today. It is and also Alaskan Native governments in this not the full sovereignty that we enjoyed at the country. We are pleased to present our testimony time of the encounter, but we have an official today before the U.S. Commission on Civil government-to-government relationship with the Rights concerning your topic Racial and Ethnic United States Government. Each of our Indian Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, In- nations here has that government-to-govern- equality, and Discrimination. Before I begin, I ment relationship. That has been the official pol- thought I would just give some background on icy of the U.S. Government from President the Columbus Quincentennial topic that Mr. Nixon on through President Bush. Royal mentioned. They have all emphasized that there are three The quincentennial is something that we are sources of sovereignty here in the UnitedStates. asked about a lot at the National Congress of There is the United States Federal Government. American Indians, and there are a lot of perspec- There are State governments and there are tives on this. Because the tribes are so diverse, tribal governments. I think that is one of the there is a range of opinion from tribes who want educational processes that we have to begin, as to protest this type of event, ignore it, or get a NatiNie Americans, to inform the American peo- perspective on it. There are many American In- ple and also our representatives here in Con- dians today who feel a very deep bitterness to- gress that there are three sources of government wards Europeans, towards white people, because in the United States today. We are not political of the legacy of Columbus and others. subdivisions of States. We are separate entities, We think that in the initial stages of the dis- although not enjoying the full powers that we covery, or I should say "so-called discovery," enjoyed at the time of the encounter, we do have when there were two or several nations that some form of diminished sovereignty.

131 125 Mr. Royal asked, "Do we want to endorse trib- of good valid historical statements from chiefs alism in modern day America?" Ouranswer like Black Elk and Spotted Tail and Red Cloud would be: "You have no choice." The Hopi in Ari- that are documented and that are true. Where zona, the Quinault in Washington State, the they are not truewe have investigated this Seminole in Florida, the Iroquois in New York, Chief Seattle story and it doesn't appear that the they are not going to ask for your endorsement statements that have been attributed to him are on whether they can remain tribes or not. They truethat is not something that we will sup- have been practicing their religion and their cul- port, because there are enough other good valid ture for thousands of years and, I think, they are testimonies and prophecies by Native American going to continue regardless of what the United leaders not to rely on mistruths. So we are also States Government has said. The Government in in the search for truth as well, but you have got the past has tried to terminate tribes, and those to realize that there are different perspectives tribes that maintain their culture, maintain out here from the many member tribes of our their religionalthough not as well as they organization and others. would have done if we had maintained official In terms of multiculturalism in education, we tribal governmentsthey still have remained. found that in the last few years, there has been The Menominee Nation in Wisconsin is an exam- an upsurge of interest in education in Native ple of that. Their official government relations American culture and values, and we appreciate were terminated by the U.S. Government in the that and we think that is a good sign. That is a 1950s, yet they remained as a tribal body. They good development. Images of Native Americans practicedtheirreligion.Eventuallyafter a from the past, and particularly through Holly- course of time, their tribal governmental powers wood, have not been good ones. You have seen were restored and they are now a fully function- the images from Tonto to non-Indians playing ing tribe today. Indians; it has been a very negative image that So when we talk about multiculturalism and has been portrayed of American Indians. tribalism, American Indian governments are With the film Dances with Wolves, which al- going to remain as part of this fabric of the beit portrayed a romanticized version of Native United States, but they are going to maintain Americans, that has stirred interest in at least a their separate identity. I think it was Ms. Scott positive perspective for American Indian tribes. that mentioned the Madisonian version of multi- To have our language on film is also a positive culturalism, a multiple perspective. I think that development. The Broken Cord, which is a tele- is the philosophy that we would have as well, vision series about fetal alcohol syndrome, was that there are many perspectives on multi- another positive development. There are a num- culturalism, on our relations with the U.S. Gov- ber of other movies now coming out about Native ernment, and there is not going to be one set ofAmericans that contribute to this education. truths that are set down for all peoples. History Thunderheart and others are all positive devel- has been written by the winners here. We make opments for us in terms of our image, which is this offer to someone with the philosophy of the important in this era of multiculturalismto statement made by Mr. Royal: We will pull that show that there is not just one narrow percep- one book on Columbus that may contain some tion of Native Americans. mistruths, if you pull all the thousands of books Yet, even in spite of these images, we find that that have been written about Native Americans there are still dangerous misconceptions about with mistruths. That is a fair trade foryou. We us that are exemplified both through mascots would be glad to do that because the history and through marketing efforts. Just the, other books across this country are filled with miscon- day we appeared at a hearing before the Select ceptions and mistruths about American Indian Committee on Children and Families chaired by religion, about our governments, and aboutour Patricia Schroeder on a beer called Crazy Horse history. Malt Liquor that is being promoted to the gen- Where there are cases like the Chief Seattle eral public with the image of Crazy Horsewho example or Brother Eagle, Sister Sky,we don't was a great spiritual leader of the Sioux people, endorse that type of approach. There are plenty who was undefeated in battle, and who was

126 132 against alcohol. Yet this marketing company has Commission that prides itself on being nonparti- tried to use this heroic image to sell its malt san and is attempting to transcend partisanship, liquor. So we object vigorously to this desecra- particularly in an election or campaign year. So tion of the great leader Crazy Horse. having said that, I would like to ask Mr. Ander- Andy Rooney is another example, a widely sonhe mentionedthefilmDanceswith syndicated columnist, who wrote recently in a Wolveswhether he has seen the film Black column that Indian people have no art, no Robe, and whether he thinks that is an accurate culture. So this philosophy is out there today, or a fair depiction given how he would perceive and we have got to fight it. We are going to think multiculturalism. a few minutes with Andy Rooney is like spend- MR. ANDERSON. I haven't seen that movie. ing a few minutes with David Dukethat same From what I understand, it has been called a type of philosophy is there. realistic Dances with Wolves or less romanticized Finally, what this points to from the Native version of the cultural period of the Iroquois. I American organizational perspective is that we don't think there is anything to fear from having have got to begin to educate American Indians exposure of different perspectives like that. I and others on our culture. In that regard, this think that we welcome it.I don't know of the fall we are going to launch a major public rela- historical accuracy of itI haven't seen the tions effort designed to educate American Indi- filmbut I don't think that we should be para- ans in support of the American Indian Religious lyzed from having exposure to different perspec- Freedom Act, which is designed to protect sacred tives. That is part of the value of multicultural- sites and allow tribes to practice their tradi- ism. We would just like to have some balance, tional religions, and also to reverse two danger- and that is where we see in the past and in ous Supreme Court decisions that have taken Hollywood, that the perspective has been com- these rights away. We will be beginning this ef- pletely one-sided. Now we are only beginning to fort through our tribes and others and through right that balance. the U.S. Congress as well. They will be holding COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. I found Professor hearings on this issue to further this idea of Scott's testimony to be very interesting, but it multiculturalism--the Madisonian versionof leads me to the conclusion that, perhaps, what multiculturalism that Professor Scott referred we are not talking about here so much is not to. We look forward to working on those efforts history, but more in terms of an ideology with and also providing information to this Commis- historical footnotes. I would like you to comment sion on Civil Rights hearing on some of the de- on that. velopments in this area. Thank you. MS. SCOTT. I don't think that is the case at all. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very I think what we are talking about is how one much. I am going to remind each one of the looks at the history of this country. What we are members of the Commission panel that we are talking about are the values of the founders, for asking you to also control your remarks to the example, in defining democracy. I think the extent of minutes, so that each one of you can Madisonian notion that factions were essential have an opportunity to ask the questions you to liberty underlies the sort of history that I am want to and give the respondents a good chance talking about; that is, one understands that to respond. I will bypass my minutes and let there have been great conflicts, which there those of you who have been sitting through this have been. We can go back and go through most entire panel ask your questions. I will have some of American history, the arguments about the to ask after you have finished, but let me start Constitution, the arguments about any number on my left now with Carl Anderson. of Supreme Court casesjust to take the most COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Thank you, Mr. national and dramatic onesthe Civil War, the Chairman. I would like to begin by saying that, American Revolution, and find a variety of opin- at least in the view of this Commissioner, I find ions, a variety of very deeply held and very dif- personal attacks on the President or the Vice ferent views that can't be added up unless you President or any member of Congress to be undo it ideologically to a common single view about called for in this hearing, and not helpful to a what happened.

133 127 I would argue that many of the history text- and in many cases, not portrayed at all as actu- books that we read, which are simple stories ally they were. But there was a very interesting about the happy progress of democracy, are the moral development that began, that people had ideological examples of history, and that the real to extend the idea of what a human person was history is a history of conflict, differences ofwhen they encountered new peoples who had opinion, one side wins, another side loses one been unheard of before. It also presented them time. Every presidential election is like that in with some other difficultiessome Native Amer- some way or another. ican societies were hierarchical. There was not That I think is the more accurate history and equality by any means. Some practiced what the way in which one then addresses reasonably people thought were violations of natural law the sorts of tensions and conflicts that Mary such as human sacrifice, cannibalism, torture, Futrell describes as existing in the classroom, etc., which we still regard as contraventions of the sort of tensions and conflicts that the stu- natural law. While on the one hand we want to dents Professor Wilkins talks about don't under- encourage these pluralistic perspectives, I think stand, if they are coming from groups who have we have to recognize that as a people we do hold not been taught that there are differences ofcertain truths to be self-evident. We don't allow opinion,differencesof perspective,different all Native American tribes to reconstitute them- ways of understanding what is happening, what selves, practice ways that they were practicing has happened in the past. 500 years ago, because they come into conflict COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Do anyother with some principles that we all hold in common members of the panel want to address that? and we think apply to all human beings on the MR. ROYAL. I think that I am grateful to face of the earth. So I am largely in agreement Professor Scott's four-part division which dou- with this idea about factions, but let's not lose bled my original two-part division. I think it en- the unum in the pluribus. riches it in a variety of ways, but I think there is PROFESSOR WILKINS. I would first like to re- a weak spot in the way you present the Madison- spond to the rebuke that I received. I don't think ian position because the thought of the founders that elected officials in the United States, partic- is not solely a matter of pluralism. It is not ularly in election years, are above criticism. solely a matter of multiple perspectives philo- Moreover, when a public official and an adminis- sophically. If one of the defining phrases about tration tend to exemplify the injury which, I the United States is E pluribus unum, there is think, our defective education system, inflicts on both an unum and a pluribus out there, and it our society, on our public life, in the area that seems to me that one of the crucial distinctive this Commission is examiningracial tension marks of the United States is to say that we hold it is perfectly appropriate, in my view, to point certain truths to be self-evident, that some out the fallacy of the views as an example of the truths are not pluralistically defined if you wish problems we face. I think it is ridiculous to say to be an American. I mentioned those earlier; all that the positions taken by public officials for men are created equal, a government of laws, political profit in an election year are above re- etc. Once we recognize that there is that unum view and comment in an democratic society. in the plurality, it changes things a great deal as I would like to comment on Professor Scott's you look back over the historical record in partic- really superb analysis from exactly the opposite ular. direction that Mr. Royal came at it from. I think I tend to focus my remarks on this Columbus she is awfully generous to the founders frankly. material that I have been working at. One of the Madison did talk about factions, but if you think most interesting aspects of that history is the about the Declaration of Independence and this way the Spaniards had to rethink their concep- tenetthat we takesoseriously, Thomas tion of the human person, and what constituted Jefferson had no sense in his mind whatsoever human rightsincontactwiththe Native when he wrote, "We hold these truths to be self- American peoples. I agree with a great deal of evident, that all men are created equal," that what Mr. Anderson said.I think the Native that meant everybody. The fact that it didn't American peoples have been badly portrayed, mean everybody is very important in American

128 134 history. Of course, it didn't mean women. It cer- eral things. One, we had a group of parents that tainly didn't mean the hundred or so slaves that were saying, "We don't want our children in Jefferson owned and who were enriching him those programs," because they were alleging with their unrecompensed labors. It certainly they didn't service the needs the way they didn't mean the Native Americans whom he should have. First of all, it was the parents mentioned in the Bill of Particulars against King didn't want the children in the GT program. Sec- George, and he said of the Native Americans, ondly, someand in this case it was the Hispa- "Merciless Indian savages, whose known method nic leaderswere saying, "Well, nobody told us of warfare is to make no distinction among men, that there were GT programs in the schools. women and children." He certainly didn't mean How come we didn't know?" So they were alleg- them. ing that they did not know what the process was Yet most of the youngsters who are trained in for inclusion, as well as the fact that they really this country, educated in this country, don't un- were not involved, period. derstand that, haven't been taught that. Madi- I would like for you to respond to these com- son when he talked about factions was really ments with regard to Virginia, where your chil- talking, in my view, about economic factions. He dren were growing up, and then provide a na- didn't have Betty Friedan in mind. He didn't tionalperspective,if you find that thisis have Ben Hooks in mind. He didn't have A.I.M. something that occurs in GT programs all over in mind. When he was arguing for the adoption the country either through ignorance or disinter- of the Constitution, he said that three-fifths enu- est or a lack of confidence in the programs, if meration of blacks was perfectly fine in Federal that explains some of the isolation that you saw. 54, because after all,in being vendable and MS. FUTRELL. Sure. Thank you. First of all, I being subject to corporal punishment, they really would like to comment that when we talk about are debased, and mixed human and property multiculturalism, especially when we talk about and, therefore, the idea that they are three-fifths it in terms of the schools, it is more than the of a human being is perfectly appropriate. curriculum. It is the whole ethos; it is everything So, there was a pluribus, okay. It wasn't a that is going on in the school. When we look at unum, didn't start out as a unum, The fact that the curriculum and the way schools are struc- it didn't start out as an unum has enormous con- tured and then we try to address it from a na- sequences for our society today, and when our tional perspectivebecause that will certainly children are taught that they are profoundly characterize what is going on in Virginia. miseducated. It leads to very severe errors of Basically, what we have in place are five policy and in the allocation of resources in this tracks. We have the gifted and the talented society, not to mention very foolish public com- track, the academic track, then we have the gen- ments by political, public officials. eral track, the vocational track, and then we CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner have what we call the special education track. Buckley? Students are grouped as early as kindergarten COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. If I may, I would to go into those tracks. They maybe are not that like to have Ms. Mary Futrell answer this one clearly defined at the elementary level, but they first and then anybody else who wishes to re- certainly are at the secondary level. By the time spond. they get to the secondary level, because of the We have State Advisory Committees all over experience they have had at the elementary the country, one in each State and one in D.C. A level, it is pretty clear where they are going to be couple of years ago I was in Iowa in January, in and who is going to be in which track. 1986 or 1988, and one of the hearings contained When you walk into almost any school in the a discussion of the gifted and talented program. United States of America, you can basically tell I was very surprisedit really didn't make any what the track is while looking at the makeup of sense to me because I am a high school physics the student population in there. So if you go into teacherthat some of the individuals that were the gifted and talented program it will probably there testifying were talking about the gifted be predominantly white, and predominantly and talented program and they were saying sev- middle, upper class white. You will have some

129 135 Hispanics, or some Asians rather, and that will do in life. If you are not in the gifted and tal- probably be the largest minority group repre- ented or academic programs, you don't receive sented. You will have a few blacks and a few the background to qualify you to go to college. Hispanics in it. You will have more, slightly You can get in, but it is much more difficult for more representationat the academic level, you. It is a political process as well as an educa- which is just a step below the gifted and talented tional process. program. Then at the general track level you There are some of us who are strongly advo- will have predominantly Hispanic students. You cating that we will not see improvements in edu- will find that the black students are, for the cation until that system is radically modified. most part, in the vocational programs, with aThat is a political question in this country as disproportionate number of black boys and well as an educational question. We believe that Hispanic boys in the special education track. So minority students, in many instances, are delib- that is the way it is set up. erately excluded because they don't have the in- Many of those students are in those programs formation, because they don't have the experi- because they are counseled to be in them. They ence, or because of the test scores, whatever, are placed there because of test scores and be- they are excluded from those programs. That, cause of past performance in classes. Some of too, has been documented. them are there because of self-assignment. They The question you ask about some parents select where they want to be, especially at the don't want their kids in there, I have not run secondary level. When you look at the gifted and across too many. I have run across a few. It is talented program, it is of the five perhaps the usually the opposite way. People want their chil- most selective about who will be able to study dren in there and the question is often raised, that particular curriculum. Those students are "Are those' kids really gifted and talented who generally selected by the counselors and teach- are there, or are they simply there because of ers. I would say the third criterion would be test the pressure which has been put on the system?" scores. Oftentimes, and let me be very candid, if Regarding the process of inclusion, I would you do not understand the structure I have just say that it is not very inclusive. As I said, my outlined, then the assumption is that your child kids were lucky. We have twins and both of them is going to receive basically the same education were fortunate enough to get into the program. all other children will receive. That is not true. But the fact that they, as sophomores and ju- That is why I made the comment earlier that we niors, were able to make the observation that do not have a common curriculum in the schools. there were no other blacks in the program, I If you know the processand a lot of this is think is to their credit. There were no Hispanics. political as well as educationalthen your child There were some Asians, but that was it. will be more likely to get into those top two pro- COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. One of the reasons grams than if you don't. Several of the kids get parents gave was the grades and the ranking, in because their parents put pressure on the and the grades would be different, would be low- school officials. Some get in because they are ered, so they didn't want them in those classes. gifted and talented. Some get in because, let's be Ms. FUTRELL. Right. Well, I think the lower- honest, there are certain slots which have to be ing probably means that they felt that their chil- filled. That is how they get there. dren would be under such pressure, and it would What we find is that the system is structured be more difficult to get an A or a B, but if they now, and there is ample evidencenot just anec- were in the plain academic program, they could dotaland studies have been conducted by peo- have a higher grade point average, so do we re- ple like Jeannie Oakes, and Robert Slavin from ally have to have this to get into this particular John Hopkins University, by Henry Levin, you institution? Most colleges and universities will can go right down the listshowing that the accept the academic and the general trackas a process works as I have described it. It is typical matter of fact, all of them will. of what you would find all across the United COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Dr. Scott, in going States of America. The way the process is set up, to Los Angeles, some of what we heard there, basically, will determine what you are going to was that we needed to go back to the schools and

130 13f work with schools and then teach the children The question of "all men are created equal" is tolerance, how to get along with each other. a question about whether men includes women. Some of what we heard there was that it was an I don't think without a suffrage and a feminist ignorance of other peoples that produced this movement we would have had the amendment problem. That would take care of the people who that finally gave women the vote. I have found were involved, but what about the ones that that when you teach students that people were have dropped out of school; the ones that are not in a position to organize and demand some at- in school any longer, that are say, 19 through 30 tention to their interest and their own needs, years old? How could we tell them about the were able to take these wonderfully principled Madisonian theory of pluralism? What vehicle statements and argue that they ought to have a do you think we could use to help them under- different meaning than they have now, that stand what it means? those were the kinds of kids who then thought in Ms. SCOTT. Well, I guess after the fact of drop- terms of a future for themselves in a democracy, ping out, I don't see that a multicultural curricu- who thought about voting as something that was lumI mean, I think the implication of your worth doing, rather than giving up on the vote. question is that a multicultural curriculum is There is no reason that cities should not have not going to solve all the problems. I certainly everybody registered to vote. That should make think to argue that the way one teaches in the an enormous difference to whether Congress schools is going to solve everything would be a passes aid to cities in larger or smaller quanti- mistake. The issue of jobs, the issue of what kind ties. My sense is that the kind of history in of future you have, the issue of how politics is which people are able to see ordinary people ask- organized are really also important. ing politically to get something for themselves I guess I would say that many kids who drop and to make an argument even if they don't al- out of school, though, might not drop out if they ways win would make an enormous difference. saw something in what they were being taught We might have fewer dropouts if there were a that fit the realities of the lives that they lived, if kind of curriculum that appeals to that kind of they were engaged in some way to think about interest and that kind of mood. the relationship between what they were feeling MS. FUTRELL. I would just like to comment and living and experiencing and what they were that I think the concept of tolerance is very nar- learning as history. For example, going back to row, and what we need to do is to focus also on this question of "all men are created equal," I understanding and respect because, as an indi- think that there are ways that one could teach vidual, I don't want you to tolerate me. I want that issue, in which one said there was this prin- you to respect me, I want you to try to under- ciple that stated that "all men were created stand me, I want us to try to live together. When equal." Then the history of America has been a we look at the whole issue of tolerance as it re- history of arguing about what that meant. Ar- lates to young people, again, they reflect what guing not only among the people who had power they see in society. Children are not born intoler- to make a difference, not only the Jeffersons and ant; they learn this at home. They learn it from the Madisons, but on the part of people living in the community and they bring it into the school. the country, whose behavior, whose political or- What we have to do is to try to teach them to ganizing made a difference. The arguments were understand one another, to respect one another, about what color men were created equal. Cer- and out of that comes not simply toleration. I tainly, part of the decision finally to end slavery think that that is critical. I can tolerate some- came from what we would think of as at the top, body and not care a hoot about them, not like but some of it came from the way in which freed them. What we see a lot of times in schools is slaves organized, the way in which abolitionists kids have gotten beyond that point and the frus- organized, the pressure that was put on the gov- tration and the anger and the resentment, and ernment to bring about a change in the interpre- they are so young. You try to figure out how did tation of the meaning of "all men are created these kids to get this point so early. Trying to equal." undo what we see is very, very difficult. Trying to get them to understand that you don't have to

137 131 fight all the time, you don't have to use the ver- feed by her explanation that tolerance is not as bal abuse. Just because somebody is a different benign a concept in her mind as it seems to be, color or doesn't worship the way you do, doesn't and that she sees it as dealing with respectit mean that they are someone who is horrible. is not about that. Most of the public debate is not Trying to get them to understand that is very about Madisonian democracy either, although I difficult. But we teach it by the way we treat think it is fair to say that most historians would each other, by the way we teach the people in probably say they do pretty much what you de- our classroom. We teach it by the way we prac- scribed in the fourth category because we under- tice what we do in life. Our kids are basically stand that history is a process of revision, and emulating what they have seen us do. we understand about conflict and consensus. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner That is part of the life blood of what we do. Berry? Why is most of the public debate in these COMMISSIONER BERRY. I have enjoyed this other two categories? Why is most of the public panel very much. I have long respected Mary debate at what scholars would call "the fringes Futrell and her work at the National Education of the discussion," either the common culture on Association and everything she has done, and the one hand, or the ethnocentric/nationalistic always listen carefully to whatever she has to perspective, on the other. The examples that are say. When I saw that Joan Scottwho has been given in newspapers, magazines, or on television dispensing wisdom from her perch at the insti- always are either somebody who thinks that Af- tute for all these yearswas on the panel, I rican culture controlled every culture in the wondered what she would say, but I knew that it world, or somebody who claims that American would be illuminating. Roger, of course, I didn't and/or Western culture is the most important expect much from. I thought he would be undis- and controls everything in the world. Is it a ciplined, and, characteristically, he was. question of power? Where is power in ideology in The other two panelists I don't know, but I this debate? What are the stakes here? What is would say to Mr. Anderson, that you probably this debate about, and why has it become of such are already aware, and maybe the audience isn't, enormous concern that it relates to the tensions that there is a burgeoning industry of research that exist in society, that we on this Commission on Native Americans, especially with historians. would be discussing this debate? It is not purely It is one of the fields in which a lot of work is an intellectual exercise. Where is the power? going on right now. I am hoping that that work Why ideology, and why in these two areas alone? will turn its attention also to Afro Indians, be- I would start with Professor Scott, since she laid cause many of us in the African American com- out the topology, and then see if anyone else has munity are, in fact, also Native Americans. I just any comments. That is my only question. recently met the leader of my own tribe, who is a Ms. SCOTT. I think that is a really good ques- woman. Her name is Mankiller. It doesn't mean tion because there is a difference between the she kills men. They were the watchers of the media [debates] and the public debates on what tribes. There is a lot going on in this area to are essentially "yes" or "no" [answers] to multi- correct the errors of the past. culturalism and the more complex vision that I Let me just say that I think that Joan Scott's tried to present. The reason I tried to present topology was very useful, although she may these four topologies was, in fact, to get us away want to modify the labelling of the last, the from what are always polarized media debates Madisonian pluralism. about [multiculturalism], or scare tactics. Either Ms. SCOTT. Democracy. on the one hand, we have "American history that COMMISSIONER BERRYdemocracy, in view of is true" or "these kind of falsehoods have been Roger's remarks, although that labelling serves introduced by minority groups who would... to a very useful purpose in some settings. subvert what really is the case." I think that is What I wanted to ask about is most of the the wrong way to think about it, but it is unfor- public debate on this question is not about your tunately the way it is being thought about. second categorywhich Iwould sayisthe I think there are a lot of reasons for it. One is "Futrell position" on pluralism, although modi- ideological.Thatthereisbinarydivision

132 138 between the good and the bad, the true and the story," the quote from Asante is really import- false, the dominant and the minority, is a way of ant"We didn't come over on the Mayflower. refusing what some of the serious questions of Our story was not a story of hope." multiculturalism are all about. [This is done] by One of the historians that I quoted, Kenneth groups who want to preserve a unitary division Jackson, who was one of the dissenters in the of American history; who feel that patriotism New York State Curriculum Report, said, "The rests, for example, on a view that we are all experience of America has been a good thing for Americans and that being American means the most Americans. America has always welcomed same thing; who have a view of individualism, its immigrant groups (with the exception of slav- arguing that history is about individuals suc- ery)." If you can put slavery in parentheses, you ceeding in American democracy, rather than are putting the whole question of race, the racial wanting to argue about groups and conflict and structure of the United States, the segregated inequality. structure of the United States, in parentheses, It is a matter of recognizing inequality or not and there is a big stake in arguing that it all is a recognizing it. It is a matter of being able to parenthesis, rather than a major question that tolerate more than one perspective. It is hard to has to be confronted by our politicians, by our teach American history or any history from more historians. The connection of history to politics is than one perspective. The way that history has that history is the story that legitimizes political been taught, the way the history textbooks exist positions. If you can tell a story with slavery in for the most part, the way ordinary people think parenthesis, then you are saying something very about history, is in terms of a single story. It is profound about your vision of American politics, really hard to complicate the story by saying of where America is going, what principles and that there was more than one point of view positions it ought to hold. about what was going on. I think it is actually PROFESSOR WILKINS. I would just add to that. true that we live as if there is more than one I think that I agree with all of that. I would point of view. But in teaching it or in arguing simply add that privilege always attempts to politically about it, in trying to run an election cloak itself in a thing that is "a construct of the campaign, for example, in which a candidate natural order of things." Where we had "the di- presents himself as the epitome of the American vine right of Kings," it is the natural order of values, it is much easier to have one story than things. In this society, the story has been told in it is to say that there are arguments about what a way that makes the people who were originally these stories are. privileged, and their descendantswho are still In a way, the debate on multiculturalism is privilegedto retain that privilege as a part of also a debate, I think, about race, more about the natural order of things. To go back and retell race than about anything else in America. It is the story is to rip the cloak of privilege away and about whether or not minority groups, particu- show it standing there naked, as a justification larly African Americans, will be allowed to have of power. Well, that is going to be a very heated a say and will be allowed to articulate what their and angry argument. perspective is on American history. After all, I would also say the excesses on the other side slavery is the stain on American democracy and come from pain and rage and frustration at be- American history. It is something that is very ing treated so badly for so long. When you are in hard to explain away. It is something that com- pain and when you have been battered, it is plicates the story. To argue that, "with the end of often very difficult to make terribly careful and slavery, all of the problems ended," is impossible, rational arguments. I think that is where a lot of given the segregated schools, the economic con- this excess comes from. ditions, the way cities are in the United States MR. ROYAL. May I comment on this, too? today. It seems to me that if you allow a different I think the power questions are very import- perspective and a different point of view to be ant here, but I think it is also important to point introduced, not the Afrocentric one necessarily, out that there is a profound American myth in- not the one that says, "everything started in Af- volved in these questions as well. Americans are rica," but one that says, "we have a different not, to take a rather pointed example, French

133 139 men and women who think of themselves as all Either you are for the way things are, and ifyou belonging to this one glorious nationality whatare not for the ways things are, then you are ever they believe, and they disagree quite seri- against everything else.I have been rather ously over a variety of things in their history. astounded and sometimes very angry at the way What unites Americans together is a myth. In the debate has been cast, and I think the issue of the past, it was very definitely present in the power is very definitely part of it. Mayflowerit is a kind of "Garden of Eden" Maybe I am looking at the fact that we are myth. It is a new world myth where people going to have to share, because as more and arrive and kind of start history all over again, more of these "people" speak up and demand and it runs very deeply. It takes on various in- their part, we are not going to be able to deny carnations that we aren't connected to this old them their role, their share. I recall a conversa- paSt, we are something new, we have sort of a tion I had with a gentleman and he said, "All compact. The way we are held together is not by you people want to do is talk about the nega- our common nationality or ethnicity, but this tives." No, I don't want to talk about the nega- compact. I see that in the issues that I have tives; I want to talk about the positives. The pos- looked at most carefully recently. itive to me as we talk about e pluribus unum, I I think we ought to recognize that there is a want to know where I am in the unum. Where profound fear before our minds when we say am I? I am a woman, I am a southerner, I am a that we cannot extendor we are unwilling to black, I am a footstomping Baptist. Where do I extendthe principles that we think are highly fit? good principles to all of us. If we can't agree CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You are in trouble. about how it is that we all fit together and have MS. FUTRELL. That is right. I am in trouble. our different perspectives on our different histo- Where do I fit in all of this? That is not a rhetori- ries, if that can't be fit together somehow, then cal question. As I said to someone, as we look at the country doesn't fit together. It is kind of a the past, if I want to deal with the negatives, all recasting of ourselves from having a mythic I have to do is go to the library and pick up a past, to having a historical past, as Professor book. I can read it; it is there. I want to look at Scott, whom I think is quite right, pointed out. the future. How do I take what has happened in Most Americans are not comfortable with that. the past with all of its imperfections and make Luigi Barzini, the Italian writer, once pointed what we say a reality? I really want to believe, out that Americans are not even content with and I really want to say to my kids, and I want perfection. We want a more perfect union. Per- to say to my grandchildrenbecause I know I fection in itself is not enough for us. We want to am going to have somethat when we talk have a more perfect union than what Europeans about inalienablerights,things beingself- have. evident, that they are included. It is just not for The power is important. I concede that. But I the white kid or the rich kid. It is for all of us. I think we have to recognize too, that we areas I don't think that we can continue to use those said quoting Chesterton earlier"we are a Na- kinds of phrases unless we put some meaning to tion with a soul of a church." If we can't find them. some way to agree on those very few principles I don't think we can let the media shape the that we think underlie our democracy and that debate. I don't think we can let certain groups extend to all of us of whatever ethnic and racial simply shape the debate. I think we, as a people, background, then it is a threatening thing to us. have to help define this debate because this de- Ms. FUTRELL. I would like to comment by say- bate is going to define America when we get to ing that I have been studying this issue very the year 2000. I think we are talking about val- closely for about a year and a halfalmost 2 ues. I think we are talking about beliefs. I think years nowand reflecting on Dr. Berry's ques- we are talking about power. All these things we tion about the way the issue is presented, I, too, are talking about. When are we going to stop have been puzzled as to why the issue has trying to disguise it so that it comes across in all always been presented from two extremes. It is these terms that make it sound like this is what almost "you are with us or you are against us." we are really all about? When are we going to

134 140 say, "This is what we are really all about and power, that there was never a golden and placid this is what you are also going to be able to age. share"? To me that is what the whole debate I was thinking then of the constitutive rules of aboutmulticulturaleducationandmulti- the country. The fact that we have a non- culturalism is about. monarchy, that we have the rule of law and due One last footnote; it is more than history. It is processes for changing who has the power, everything we teach in our schools and every- means that we are going to be permanently in a thing we do in our society. History is a critical struggle with groups seeking to wrest power part of it, but I hope that we don't just say, "Let's from those who least want to relinquish it. The look at this piece right here." point of the game is to accumulate power, and MR. ANDERSON. Just a followup on that. I one of the consequences then, given the way we think Professor Wilkins mentioned at the end of have organized the Constitution, is going to be his closing about the consequences of a lack of that we are always in a struggle. I suspect we understanding. Around the American Indian res- will not find the time in our history when there ervations and tribal communities, we have what wasn't some struggle over that. I am refreshed are called "border towns," where you have non- in the way that this time is in fact with prece- Indian cities around the territorial boundaries of dent, rather than without precedent. It may be the tribal governments and that lack of under- our children who think back about the quieter, standing leads to conflict many times. I think as simpler days of the early nineties. we begin this new era, the next 500 years follow- But it is constituent in an organizational ing Columbus' arrival, that we have an obliga- game we live in that there is going to be this tion both from minority communities and also power struggle. I think as we move away from from the Indian communities as well to begin a describing our history as saying, "Well, no, it new era of exploration, so we go beyond conflict was this way, or it was that way" and move to- to tolerance, and ultimately to respect. That is ward the notion that there were lots of different the challenge that our own communities face as histories because there are lots of different inter- well. We have got to begin to share this informa- preters, lots of different observers, watching tion. American Indian communities have been here, we can find our way into a different and fairly closed in a lot of respects in terms of what happier future. I already talked longer than I they have shared with other cultures, and I expected. I want to thank the panel. For me this think we have got to begin to share that infor- was a very provocative and simulating morning. mation more with other surrounding communi- I yield the rest of my time, Mr. Chairman. ties. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Com- Wang? missioner Redenbaugh? VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you, Mr. COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Yes, before I Chairman. In the interest of time I also will just yield my time, I would like to make a comment. I add a very short question. I listened to Commis- am struck with a number of things as I reflect on sioner Berry's questionsshe always says every- the discussion this morning. One of them is that thing I want to say. I enjoyed the conversation there are a large number of us in this country immensely. Ms. Futrell, if we put the whole de- who, I suppose, once we get past a certain age, bate in the context of bilingual education and which I have passed, find ourselves thinking that experience, where does inclusion of curricu- about the time in which we live as uniquely and lum lead us? deeply troubled, and without solutions or possi- Ms. FUTRELL. Well, when we reflect on the bilities or expanding the future. We sometimes issue of bilingual education, I think that it is find ourselves longing for the quieter, simpler, critical not only from the perspective of trying to more tranquil golden age that never was. I have address the needs of children who do not speak taken encouragement this morning by being re- English as their first language, but I look at bi- minded by some of the panelists that our history lingual education as also meaning that we ought has been a history of struggle, and a struggle for to be saying to all students that they should speak another language. We are one of the few

135 141 nations not requiring students to speaka second really know what the delegates were working on. language. I don't know what they were saying." I came I think that we spend an enormous amount of away convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt money intheelementary grades teaching that one of the requirements for being a member children to forget the languages they bring to of future delegations to the United Nations is school, then we spend an enormous amount of that you should at least be able to speak French money in junior high, the senior high years try- or German or Spanish or something so that you ing to teach them another language. What we can behave intelligently and listen to what was ought to do is build on the languages and the going on. cultural diversity that they bring to the school. Having said that, let me put the one question That is one piece of it. that concerns me. I am going to assume you are When we talk about bilingualism in this coun- familiar with the term "collaborative decision- try, I am very concerned about those who say to making," that's going on in the educational us that we should be a monolingual nation. I am arena right now, and multiculturalism. Based on talking now about the "English only" movement the diversity of this country, from a racial point because that also impacts the schools. I believe of view, an economic point of view, as well as all children should know how to speak standard educational, are the people who are supposed to English. Every child should be able to speak, participate in this collaborative decisionmaking, write, and read standard English, but I think to and who are going to get hurt the worst if they say to a society which is as prolific as ours that can't participate, are they ready for it, from your we cannot function using other languages is point of view? wrong. Again we talk about power. What about MS. FUTRELL. Let me start with schools. One those communities where we have high concen- of the things that we discussed when I was pres- trations of Hispanics or Asians or other people ident of NEAI decided that one of the areas of who do not necessarily speak English? Would we change I would like to see in the schools was to say that they will be denied their political rights implement more collaborative decisionmaking in or their employment rights? All of that relates to the schools. To our chagrin, we discovered that the whole concept of bilingualism as it relates to many of our colleagues were not ready for it, not the school, but also as it relates to the whole ready because of the hierarchical structure of society. I see it as a positive. I don't see it as a the schools and the fact that teachers are basi- negative. I see it as something we should try to cally told what to do and by large numbers of enhance so that as we join the global society, we people. When all of a sudden they were brought will be able to participate fully in that society. together so that they could collaborate to help Th'at is basically the way I wouldsee it, as a make the decisions, they were waiting to be told. very definite component of multiculturalism. But that didn't last very long, because with the VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you. proper training and opportunities, they did learn CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I have just one ques- very quickly how to become involved in the col- tion I want to put and it kind of tacks onto what laborative decisionmaking process. I use teach- you were saying, Dr. Futrell. I was at the U.N. in ers as an example because we readily assume 1971, barely able to speak English, and every that they do know how to participate in the pro- time I went to a reception, supposedly to gather cess. That is not always true. intelligence that I would share with the mem- When we look at the larger society, I would bers of the delegation the next morning before say that we will have to work with people and going on the floor of the General Assembly, I help people to understand how they can become would have to recite the story of every time they involved, and that they should become involved did not want the American delegate to under- in that decisionmaking process. stand what was going on at these differentre- The system is very structured, very rigid. ceptions, they look up and see me and change Again if you don't understand the system, if you the language. They would either start speaking don't have the time to learn the process, and if German or French or Spanish, and I would have you are not comfortable with it, you will not en- to come back and tell those delegates, "I don't gage in the decisionmaking that goes on. A lot of

136 142 people feel that they can't influence the deci- ficulties will disappear." I don't think conflict is a sions. I submit that you can, but it is influenced personal problem. I think it is a historical prob- by what you are willing to commit to it, what lem. I don't think it is an individual problem. I you are willing to do. think it is a structural problem. One of the When we look, for example, at parents being things that people involved in collaborative pro- involved in the collaborative decisionmaking cesses, whether they are children in schools or process, one of the things that happens some- teachers and schools, administrators deciding on times is meetings are held so parents can't at-multicultural curricula, have to understand, I tend. If you hold a meeting in the middle of the think, is that conflict is built into and these dif- day and most parents are working, they can't ferences are built into the structural organiza- participate. Or if you hold a meeting late attion of the system. We are arguing with each night, and that is when you make the important other, but we are not arguing with each other as decisions, a lot of times folks will leave because hateful individuals. We are arguing with each they have to go to work the next day. Part of other because we are in different locations in the participating in the process is access, part of it is society, with different experiences and different understanding how the process works, part of it interests that make it difficult for us to get is having a mechanism so that your input is val- along. I think children need to learn that, as well ued. Again that can occur, but we have to put as adults, because it will then explainwhat pressure on people to do that. Part ofputting these racial and ethnic tensions that are felt as pressure on is showing up at everymeeting, individual feelings are about, that they are in being well informed, taking the time to know fact, are not individual feelings and can't be what is going on, being willing to get up and dealt with on the individual level. speak out, and monitoring what is going on. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. One more. A great That is part of being involved in the collabora- claim is being made that education is the rem- tive decisionmaking process. edy. All we have to do is get them educated. As That, I think, is growing across the United we go across the country holding ourhearings, States. It is beginning to become more prevalent, the objective of these hearings is a statutory re- much more so than it has been in the past, on port that will give direction to the Congress, to the part of parents and on the part of teachers. the Government, to the several States, to the Now, I don't want to leave you with the impres- White House, etc. In terms of being able to sub- sion that tomorrow we will totally restructure poena both individuals and records, if you were everything and everybody is going to be in- to make some recommendations, what are the volved, because that is not going to happen right five, six, or seven areas that you would want us away. It is only going to happenif we persist in to look at to make sure we get those records, get our efforts to say that education is somethingof thoseindividualsbeforeustestifying,Dr. such value that all of us should be involved in it. Futrell? It is going to take time; it is occurring, but it is MS. FUTRELL. You mean as it relates to what not as widespread as I would like to see it. to do to improve education? MS. SCOTT. I just wanted to add one piece of CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. That is right. this, which I think connects this question about MS. FUTRELL. I would say that you would collaborative education to a more general ques- want to talk to not only school personnel, but tion of understanding and respect for diversity also to students, from a wide area, not just from among children, as well as among people who suburban America. I would look at rural Amer- are doing the specific collaborating. It seems to ica. I would look at the inner cities. I would look me one of the crucial things in the whole ques- at kids, especially at the elementary and at the tion of collaborating and dealing with each other secondary level. I would look at what is taught is to depersonalize these issues of conflict. Con- in the schools. I would look at some of the stud- flicts are often presented and the notion of un- ies dealing with where kids are and what they derstanding is presented as something that, "If I are studying in school. I would look atinforma- can somehow just be good, and good enough to tion dealing with the teaching profession, not understand you, then all of the tensions and dif- just who makes up the profession, but how are

137 143 teachers trained, how they train to go into the alleged that almost from the day we got the 1964 schools to teach the children who are in those Civil Rights Act passed, plus other civil rights schools. legislation, that the backlash started almost in- I would also look at information dealing with stantly, and that it has intensified over the past many young people who are not in school, chil- couple of decades because in certain areas it dren who have been pushed out or whatever. I seems to be working. Is there any validity in would look at that, and why are they out of that assumption? When I talk about working, I school. Another area I would look at is employ- mean to a limited degree, housing legislation is ment. One of the things that I hear a great deal, working, the Voting Rights Act is working, em- Dr. Fletcher, is "Why should I stay in school ployment opportunity is working to a limited de- when I can't get a job? When I am not going to gree, and the more it appears to be working, the be able to improve my status in life? Tell me why more intensified the backlash. I should I stay in school." This is what you hear PROFESSOR WILKINS. I think that is right, I from kids. I think we need to look at the rela- think you date it to the right time, the 1964 act tionship between education and jobs. What does and the 1965 act, but also we can't forget that it mean for them, and are the opportunities right after the 1964 act was passed, riots broke really there? out, the summer of 1964. After the Voting Rights I would definitely look at funding. And how do Act was signed into law, Watts occurred. Those we guarantee that all children at least have ac- things happened in people's psyches and they cess to basically the same quality of education. understood them. I think that there is a direct The last piece I think I would look at, if I were connection between the 1964 act, the 1965 act, you, is this whole movement to move toward a the Watts riot and Proposition 13 in California, national curriculum, national testing, national which is clearly a backlash manifestation. I see goals, and national standards. What will all in my students, youngsters who are 17 to 22 those things mean as they relate to this very years old, not my adult students, a lack of un- diverse educational system we have as they re- derstanding of what all of these efforts were late to the very diverse student population we about in the 1960s. A very powerful resentment have? I realize I haven't given you those in any of the fact that these remedies existparticu- kind of order, but right off the top of my head; larly, of course, affirmative actionand a very they are all directly related to whether or not we distorted view of what affirmative action has ac- are going to have a transformed educational sys- complished in the society and how it affects their tem in this country, whether or not we are going prospects, particularly if they are white males. to make sure that the overwhelming majority of The difference between what they have been told the children in this country do, indeed, not only in their communities and in their homes and have access to, but actually receive, a quality what actually exists in the world is like night education. I think there is a big difference be- and day. That is clearly part of the backlash that tween access and actually receiving a quality ed- you are talking about. So yes, I think you are ucation. exactly right. PROFESSOR WILKINS. Could I just make a CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. Thank you small addition to that? I think you also want to very much. All right, Staff Director? get census data and BLS data that give you MR. GONZALEZ. Yes. Mr. Wilkins, you indi- some correlation between the employment sta- cated earlier that you were part of the team that tus of parents and the income level of parents, went to Los Angeles back in the 1960s, and you and the educational attainment of children. My just came back from Los Angeles. Could you in- hypothesis would be that the higher the income dicate for us what you saw as some of the differ- level, the steadier the jobs, the greater the pride, ences between both and some of the similarities? the greater the discipline, the better the perfor- PROFESSOR WILKINS. I think the great differ- mance in school. So I think those data would be ence is that we, as a nation, were very hopeful in useful to you. the mid-1960s. We had an economy that was CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Roger, when I was a growing. We had an industrial base that was youngster I used to enjoy watching youI have strong and secure, we thought. We thought that

138 144 we could buy justice out of growth. When the the regulations, and the guidelines short of new Great Society was enacted, it was enacted in legislation, if that is necessary. Our goal is to in that hopeful economic context. We did not be- some way help the Nation find its way out of this lieve that the Great Society programs alone mess into a more stable and secure environment. would move people out of poverty. We believed We feel, this Commission, that we are playing a that the Great Society programs could move peo- very significant role in the Nation's history at ple into places where they could benefit from this particular hour, and your help is very much this strong economy and that they would be appreciated. moved up. If you have prepared statements that you Today our industrial base is not nearly as would like to leave with us now, we would appre- strong. South central Los Angeles has far fewer ciate it. But please feel free to include anything jobs than it had before. Although in 1965 there else you think we may need in order to accom- was a drug problemthere was heroinit was plish the objective we have in mind. Thank you not the problem that you see now. You have very much. young people tell you that participation in the [Recess.] drug trade is the only economic opportunity available to them. That was not the case back in Socioeconomic Factors, Part 1 the 1960s. MS. BOOKER. The next panel is Larry Lindsey, There is another giant difference, and that is a Governor of the Federal Reserve Board, our unwillingness in this society to come face-to- Charles Murray, and Paul Peterson. We would face with our addiction to guns. There are guns like Governor Lindsey to begin. We have asked in South Central and in Watts that just didn't each panelist to limit his remarks to 10 minutes exist before. When I was a child in Harlem, I after which we will have questions from the went to some schools that were pretty tough, Commissioners. Governor Lindsey? and I had anxieties that somebody might hit me CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Before you begin, in the head to take a quarter. Somebody even Governor Lindsey and other members of the maybe might pull out a switchblade. These chil- panel, I want to state that I am looking forward dren go to school with the expectation that a to this panel and to your presentations with con- number of their classmates will have guns in siderable interest. I have alleged several times their pockets. It is a vast difference. They be- that we would not really begin to see the light at lieveI never believed that I was going to die the end of the tunnel with reference to this prob- before I was 20many of these youngsters do. lem we are dealing with until the financial ser- That is a difference of such a magnitude that it vice industry suits up and gets into the ball defies my capacity to describe. I think, generally, game. I have relied rather heavily on the day the country is far less hopeful today than it was when the Community Reinvestment. Act, and then that we could solve these problems. the promise that is built therein, begins to mate- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Well, speaking for rialize. I want you to know that I am very much the Commission as a whole, I want to thank interested in your testimony and to the extent to each and every one of you for taking time from which you care to help us understand the mis- your busy schedules to share your views and sion and role and the reasonable hope that the thoughts with us. Let me remind you that the Community Reinvestment Act can be something record doesn't close on this hearing for 30 days. I of a remedy in this area. Please proceed. have a sneaking suspicion that some of you might want to add to your testimony by written Statement of Larry Lindsey, Governor, documents, or you might run into some articles, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve etc., that you think we ought include in the re- MR. LINDSEY. Thank you very much, Mr. cord. If you would be so kind as to do so, we Chairman. I am pleased to be able to be here would very much appreciate it. today to discuss some of the economic aspects of Our goal is to conduct a series of hearings poverty and inequality in America. I would like that could result not only in steps toward re- to note at the outset that I am here as an ports, but reports that could change the rules,

139 145 individual and that my views do not necessarily collected on an annual basis. Hence, I chose reflect those of my colleagues on the Board ofyears 1973, 1981, and 1990 for analytical pur- Governors in the Federal Reserve System. In poses. The 1973 to 1981 business cycle was particular, I would like to address a widespread marked by an aggressive fiscal and monetary misconception about macroeconomic policy and policy posture, which led to an increase in the economic opportunity. It is believed by many year-over-year inflation rate from 6.2 percent to commentators that an aggressive and inflation- 10.3 percent. Not only was inflation accelerating ary monetary and fiscal policy environment is over this period, it also maintained a relatively helpful for promoting economic opportunity. The high average rate of more than 10 percent. By reason for this belief is twofold: first, money cre- contrast, the 1981 to 1990 cycle saw a decelera- ation and the consequent inflation provide funds tion in inflation from 10.3 percent to 5.4 percent for the state while eroding the real value of pri- with an average over the whole cycle of less than vately held financial wealth. As financial wealth 5 percent. isrelatively concentrated, this represents a Certainly these two periods should provide a highly progressive and redistributive form of test of the hypothesis that inflationary policies taxation. Second, other things equal, inflation are good for opportunity in income distribution. transfers real assets from creditors to debtors, The data suggests that this is probably not the affecting a private redistribution in addition to case. Mr. Chairman and members of the Com- the one carried out directly by the state. mission, you have before you a copy of my testi- The data I wish to present today suggests mony and you will see the tables to which I refer that, whatever the merits of this reasoning in in the back of that testimony. Table 1 shows the theory, it has not worked out that way in prac- distribution of incomes of African American fam- tice. Rather than massive quantities of fiscal or ilies in 1973, 1981, and 1990. The income levels monetary stimulus, I believe that carefully tar- have been adjusted for inflation over this period geted incentive-oriented policies are crucial to and reflect 1990 price levels. advancing economic opportunity for all Ameri- During the 1973 to 1981 period, little progress cans. While for data reasons the emphasis of my was made on average by black American fami- comments will be on evaluating the economic lies. The real median income of all black families standing of African Americans, I believe that my fell nearly 11 percent, far more that, the 8.8 per- conclusions are probably applicable to other rela- cent decline for white families. More troubling tively disadvantaged ethnic and racial groups, as from my point of view was a sharp rise in the well as to all individual Americans seeking eco- number of families with real incomes under nomic opportunity. $10,000,although,Iwould pointout,the The U.S. economy is now in the early stages of deterioration in black family income was indi- the third business cycle we have experienced in cated among all income groups. By contrast, the the last two decades. The first two of these busi- lower inflation 1981 to 1990 period saw a rise in ness cycles were marked by very different sets of median black family income of 12.3 percent, monetary and fiscal policies and very different compared to a 9.2 percent rise in white median inflation scenarios. As such, a comparison of the family income. Most striking in this period was two can provide useful evidence for evaluating the sharp rise in the proportion of black families the proposition that inflationary policies are use- with incomes over $50,000. I think these data ful in promoting economic opportunity. illustrate that significant gains were made by The first cycle ran from the 1973 peak to the many African Americans over the past decade as 1981 peak. The second from the 1981 peak to a significant black middle class emerged. Al- 1990. I believe it is important to use peak-to- though this period was generally positive, I do peak analysis in order to control for the effects of find it troubling that more gains were not made the business cycle in determining levels of by the lowest income group. Although this group household income. While it is true that the pre- expanded greatly during the inflationary period cise timing of business cycles is on a quarter-to- of the 1970s, it failed to contract significantly quarter, even month-to-month basis, the detailed during the 1980s. data on household income and poverty rates are

140 146 One important adjustment to looking at infor housing quality, the favorable affordability come data is the role of family size. I refer you to comparison dates back to 1973. These indexes, I table 2, which presents the income of African should point out, were at their bottom; housing American families in various income quintiles was least affordable in the 1980 to 1981 period. relative to the poverty threshold of a family of That was particularly good news for those fami- that size. In the top three quintiles, the data lies seeking to get their feet firmly planted on indicate a relatively stable income-to-poverty the ladder of economic opportunity and those en- threshold pattern during the 1973 to 1981 pe- tering the middle class. In this regard, the lower riod, followed by a significant increase during inflation of the 1980s and correspondingly lower the 1981 to 1990 period. It should also be noted level of interest rates was probably of tremen- that the black families in these income ranges dous assistance to those top two or three quin- made significantly greater income gains than tiles of African American families who experi- white families in the same income levels. How- enced such a favorable income performance. ever, the fourth quintile of black families showed Let me be clear on why lower inflation assists relatively little change in income position while home ownership. Higher inflation and interest the bottom quintile showed a continuing decline rates impose a form of forced savings on home in its income level. It should be noted that these buyers. They must pay an inflation premium in income data exclude in-kind transfer payments, their mortgage payments, which is offset by a which rose in real terms over the period. But the rise in the nominal value of their home. Lower troubling fact remains that cash income for inflation lowers this forced savings component. A those black families who were least well-off con- lower cash flow is therefore needed to finance an tinued to deteriorate. A clear dichotomy exists identical house as a result. While the change between the quite favorable performance of the may not lower the long-term benefits of home top three-fifths of black families and the much ownership, it does allow more people to afford less favorable performance of other black fami- their own home. Our challenge today is to reach lies. those who were not able to advance in the past. The third chart shows the impact on the dis- This Commission will be considering how to tribution of income among black Americans. Be- meet this challenge in the future. I believe we tween 1973 and 1990, the top quintile of black need incentive-oriented programs, lower effec- families saw its share of total black family in- tive rates of taxation, lower hurdles to owning come rise by 3.3 percentage points, while the one's own business, and greater opportunities for bottom two quintiles saw their share decline by home ownership. Each of these is targeted on 3.8 percentage points. Black family income today individual initiative and attainment, which I is less equally distributed than it was in 1973, believe is the key to success. What would be and is less equally distributed than is white fam- inappropriate, in my view, is a return to the in- ily income. I believe that all three charts docu- flationary policies of the 1970s. I believe that ment both the success stories of the last decade such a return would not only be ineffective, it and the challenges ahead of us in the 1990s. might actually create new barriers to economic Most important, they show that inflationary pol- progress for those who need it the most. Thank icies do not correspond to enhanced economic op- you, Mr. Chairman. portunity. In fact, lower inflation helps to ad- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Thank vance one of the most important measures of you very much. Mr. Murray, please. economic opportunity in America, home ownership. Statement of Charles Murray, Bradley Fellow, The fact is lower inflation and interest rates American Enterprise Institute greatly increase housing affordability in Amer- MR. MURRAY. Thank you. You are about to see ica. The National Association of Realtors put out the Rashomon effect of different people inter- a housing affordability index. Today, by any mea- preting their mandate in different ways because sure, housing is more affordable to the typical my remarks will bear absolutely no relationship family than at any time since 1976. If one uses a whatsoever to Governor Lindsey's. slightly more complicated statistic that adjusts

141 147 When I read the letter that was sent to us curred about 10 years ago, which I think is illus- that said the purpose of the hearing is to identify trative of a major problem that faces the dia- the factors that have contributed to increased logue between whites and blacks, and one which racial and ethnic tensions, and then I considered we have to face. Basically, what I am about to the subject of our panel, mainly social and eco- argue is that the reason we have so little infor- nomic factors, the thought that occurred to me is mation which might point us in this direction of that, as a person who is generally extremely pes- saying that what we are looking at is not racial simistic about the future of race relations in this antagonism but socioeconomic and class differ- country, you have given me an opening for one of ences is that it is dangerous to find socioeco- the very few rays of optimism that I can find. nomic and behavioral reasons for apparently Namely, I asked myself to what degree are the racist behaviors. problems that exist between the races, and the The example that I had in mind occurred in sources of antagonism between the races, ones the early 1980s before I wrote Losing Ground: which are located not in the color of skin but American Social Policy, when I was serving on a rather in class behaviors or socioeconomic differ- panel which was trying to look at disproportion- ences? There is, I think, a strong argument to be ality in death sentencing. The Supreme Court made that a great deal of those differences and decisions at that time had given rise to the ques- those tensions are so located. If one asks oneself tion, "To what extent are blacks being sentenced what the reaction of a white community of physi- to death disproportionately to whites who have cians and attorneys and other affluent people committed similar crimes?" would be to an obstetrician of the Bill Cosby type There was at that time a very famous data- moving into that neighborhood, I think the fair base which is still to this day citedmembers of answer is that the reaction probably would be the panel are familiar with itfrom Georgia, in quite benign. It might not be benign if you were which a large number of Georgia murder cases in an urban neighborhood in which there were had been reviewed, and an attorney named problems of the entire neighborhood changing, David Baldus had presented statistical evidence but if the question is "As of 1992, are there lots that blacks were being highly disproportionately of affluent whites who object to an affluent black sentenced to death in the Georgia data. On the moving into the same neighborhood?" I think the panel that I served was a distinguished statisti- answer is no. I think that is a major change from cian from the Massachusetts Institute of Tech- the 1950s. nology, and still there, named Arnold Barnett, a By the same token, if you take a working- 10-year professor there, who took on these same class white neighborhood and announce that the data, collaboratively with Mr. Baldus. It was not government is about to build a public housing competitive in any way. He came back some project which will have welfare mothers moving months later with what I consider to be social into it, it is not at all clear to me that the anger science at its best. It was an elegant, carefully among the white working-class families will be reasoned, also understandable analysis of the much less if it turns out that it is white welfare data, applying to it a very sophisticated but at mothers who are moving in than if it is black the same time a very reasonable approach. The welfare mothers that are moving in. When I say results that came out of that, which I found con- that there is a good argument to be made, how- vincing, were that when you examined the other ever, as I thought about these kinds of examples, factors that were involved in the death senten- it occurred to me that I had remarkably little ces, it turns out, first, that Georgia juries, which data on which to base these optimistic scenarios are mostly white, were, in fact, behaving in very except my sense of the way whites talk among understandable ways, even though a surface one another. look at the case would seem to indicate that the As I thought about why it is that I have so charges were the same kind of charge and the little data, very few fragmentary things, public person had the same kind of prior record and so opinion surveys and the rest, which I don't put forth and so on. He introduced the other factors much stock in when they deal with race rela- which accounted for this. Basically, they were tions, I was reminded of an episode which oc- giving the death sentences in cases where a

142 148 reasonable person would say, "Well, this is sort ask themselves, "Have I in my life been guilty of of what the death sentence is for." When it came holding back a black student or a black employee to the issue of whether blacks were being dispro- over whom I had authority because that person portionately sentenced, the answer was, the data was black?" I suspect that just about every white are ambiguous; it is possible that there is no person in this room looking deep within his disproportionate sentencing of blacks. If there is, heart of hearts and giving a private answer, will and there was some equivocal 'data that there say "no." The next question is, "Has there ever might be some, it was far less than had pre- been a time you promoted a white person ahead viously been thought. of a black person or is has there ever been a time Here you have a careful, fact-based analysis you have given a black student worse grades by a scholar in the field, which has good news. than to a white student?" The answer will be The good news is that Georgia juries were trying "yes," but there will be, upon mature consider- very hard, and were generally successful, in ren- ation, and again not to try to persuade anybody dering justice in their deliberations and that else, but in the heart of hearts, the statement race didn't have nearly as much to do with it as that the reason for why I did that was not be- we had thought. The author of that monograph cause the person is black. It is my impression has never to my knowledge published an article that the types of white people that we find in saying so. In subsequent years as I have read this room, and I think throughout the large part editorial piece after editorial piece saying, "Well, of the population of this country, do not consider we know blacks were sentenced to death more themselves to be racist. often than whites for the same crimes because of If, however, you ask white people to say that the Georgia data," I, who write lots of editorials publicly in this kind of forum, to say, "I am not a and have done lots of publications, have never racist," it is very tough to get them to and they once publicly alluded to the study. The reason is resist that. One of the reasons they resist is be- very simple, I don't want the grief. I don't want cause they know what that opens up, which is people saying, "Well, now Murray is trying to "Well, yes, you don't think you are racist, but say it is okay to sentence blacks to death." I don't what you don't understand is all the subtle sig- want the kind of reaction which comes down nals you give off everyday; what you don't under- whenever you say, "The reason why whites are stand are the ways in which you are bigoted behaving in such and such a way with regard to even though you don't know it." Whites don't blacks in this instance is not explained by race, want to get in that kind of fight either, but that but is explained by the difference of behavior." doesn't mean that they say to themselves that To put it more generally, there is a strong bias they changed their mind. They don't want to get against presenting evidence in this'country that in that fight, but they truly believe they are not things are getting better with regard to whites racist. I also know from personal experience that treating blacks and the system treating blacks. black people who feel they have been discrimi- This is sick. This is not the way it should be. We nated against just as emphatically believe that should not be in the business of suppressing they have been, but until the dialogue opens such evidence. upand I think white people have more opening Let me conclude with an even more personal up to do than black peopleI don't think that we basis for us to think about this. Because with are going to see any improvement in what is, this opportunity today, it is virtually a unique right now, a deepening spiral of antagonism. Un- opportunity for me to try to get on the table til we are ready to welcome open scrutiny, in what I think is the source of the greatest danger short, of social and economic and behavioral rea- in race relations in this country, which is that sons for situations that we hitherto have pre- whites are not saying publicly what they say to ferred to call racist, I think the sources of these each other privately, just as I am certain blacks antagonisms will continue to deepen, and this is are not saying publicly what they say to each both a personal tragedy for whites and blacks other privately. Let me give you an example and a national tragedy as well. Thank you very which relates to the larger instance I just gave. I much. suspect if you ask every white in this room to

149 143 CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You are welcome. secure an earned income that will raise it above Professor? the poverty line. This depressing economic reality constitutes a fundamental challenge to race Statement of Paul Peterson, Professor of relations for at least the remainder of this cen- Government, Harvard University tury. MR. PETERSON. Thank you.I am Paul Secondly, we are experiencing a dramatic de- Peterson. I teach at Harvard University. cline in the quality of family life. The percentage In the spring of 1968, I lived on the south side of households with children under the age of 18 of Chicago in close proximity to the civil violence that are headed by a single mother has been that rocked that city and many other cities im- rising rapidly over the past 30 years. Among Af- mediately following the assassination of Martin rican Americans, the percentage has increased Luther King, Jr. At the time, civil violence was a from around 35 percent in 1970 to around 65 double-edged sword. On the one hand, it ex- percent in the late 1980s. pressed the outrage of an African American pop- As a consequence of these two trends ulation that had been brought to this country in declining economic opportunities and deteriorat- chains and subjected to oppression and segrega- ing family lifethe poverty rate among children tion more or less than 100 years after slavery has increased by 50 percent in the last 15 years. had been officially repudiated. On the other These worsening trends in American life can be hand, the civil violence of the 1960s was embed- reversed only by fundamentally redesigning our ded in the message of hope articulated by Martin governmental programs. Short-term Band-aids Luther King, Jr., the civil rights movement, and and targeted programs aimed at specific groups the formation of new institutions such as this of individuals or certain racial groups or certain Commission. communities will simply not work. This has been Twenty-four years have passed since those re- tried in the past, but the approach has failed. markable events. Some things have changed for The solutions I propose defy the fabled catego- the better, mainly in politics. African Americans ries of left and right, of liberal and conservative, now have access to the voting booth that they of Republican and Democratic. They also defy didn't have at that time. The numbers of African many special interests that have kept us from Americans elected to public office has greatly in- reaching for comprehensive solutions in the creased. Yet, the fundamental economic and so- past. But the time has come when partisan cial conditions of many African Americans have divisions and special interests must be cast to not improved. For the less well-educated, eco- one side so that the country can focus on solving nomic opportunities have worsened. Since the its problems. It is time to put politics to the pe- mid-1970s, the average hourly earnings for men riphery, problem solving to the center, and focus without a high school education have fallen by on comprehensive approaches that meet the about a third. As wages have fallen, joblessness needs of all families, for only by meeting the has increased. The percentageof nonwhite needs of all families can we meet the needs of Americans without a high school education who minority families. are without a job has gone from 10 to over 20 To do this we must revamp three major insti- percent. tutions in American society: our medical services Slowing gains in productivity, increased for- delivery system, our welfare system, and our ed- eign competition, and increases in the domestic ucational system. First, we must break the con- labor supply have all combined to restrict se- nection between work and medical care by creat- verely the economic opportunities of the less ing a national system of health insurance. well-educated portion of our minority popula- Employers of the less educated cannot afford to tion. Unfortunately, only very rapid inflation- provide adequate medical insurance for their inducing economic growth could reverse these workers. As a result, those holding low paying trends in the near future. Over the next decade jobs often must choose between employment and we must accept the reality that a substantial the medical insurance they could receive if they portion of our population will not receive an were not working. We could hardly design a hourly wage that will allow a family of four to more effective antiwork health care system than

144 150 the one we now have. Now, the solution is not to workers holding low paid jobs. At a time when insist that employers of low wage workers pro- less educated workers cannot earn enough to es- vide medical insurance. This will only further cape poverty, supplemental income is simply es- decrease the number of entry level jobs. Instead, sential. This income should be given to all fami- we must provide comprehensive medical insur- lies; just as we give Social Security benefits to ance for all Americans regardless of age, race, all retirees, so we should provide income allow- work status, or disability. ances to all families. We need a comprehensive Secondly, we need to strengthen families by solution. means of a system of family allowances that will Finally, we need to help families control the be provided to all families with children under education their children are receiving. Today the the age of 18. This family allowance can take the vast public bureaucracies of our central cities form either of a tax deduction, or if their taxable control the schooling of minority children. Par- earnings are negligible,then the allowance ents have little to say in what school their child should be given as a direct grant to families. attends or what happens to their children once Properlydesigned,thesefamilyallowances they go to school. We need to put families at the would not discourage work in the way that Aid center of our educational system. This can be to Families with Dependent Children currently done only by giving all families tuition vouchers does. that will enable them to choose the school they Many of you, I am sure, are aware of the want. They should be able to choose their own Mercado family, who have been receiving welfare school, whether or not it is public or private, or benefits from the State of Connecticut. This has whether it is religious or secular, whether it is been a subject inthe news recently.Mrs. Catholic or Protestant, whether it is Jewish or Mercado was told by welfare officials in Connect- Muslim, whether it is Buddhist or Hindu. icut that Federal regulations required that her This change would make families responsible two daughters could not save money for college, for their children's education, and it would make but had to go out and spend it immediately on schools responsive to the needs of families. It clothes and jewelry. Moreover, even though the would take the gangs out of our central city daughters were quite willing to do this under schools. It would eliminate the peer group im- duress, the daughters had been so thrifty in the pact in our schools, and make adults responsible past, the mother had to pay back to the welfare for their children's education, and children re- department the thousands of dollars that she sponsible to the adults in their family. It would owed because she was outside the rules. Unfor- make schools responsible for both the moral and tunately, this family tragedy is not an isolated the intellectual development of children. case. Similar dilemmas face families on welfare My point is simple: our problems are compre- every day. They must ask, "Should I look for a hensive; our solutions need to be equally com- job even if it means giving up the welfare assis- prehensive. Political Band-aids aren't enough. tance I desperately need? Can I afford to work CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Com- hard to save money and try to get ahead? Can missioner Redenbaugh? my children?" COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. I would like to Now there are some who would solve this start with a series of questions. I would like to problem by eliminating all aid to poor people. start with Governor Lindsey and ask him a Indeed, the 20 percent cut in the average welfare question that is off the topic you presented benefit over the past 15 years has moved the today. But I want to return to the mainstream of country steadily in this direction. This is not just your presentation after, which I found very ger- a theoretical possibility. This is the way our wel- mane. fare policy has been moving. But starving people We read each day about the collapse of indus- into work is not only inhumane; it doesn't work. trial bases, the loss of jobs, and the very poor Despite the cuts in welfare benefits, welfare rolls shape in which the U.S. economy finds itself. You are higher today than ever before. Instead of cut- and I separately each have written articles de- ting welfare, we need a system of family allow- scribing a different picture of the strength in the ances that supplements the family income of industrial base and the progress that we can

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BEST COPY AVAILABLE achieve. Could you speak a little bit about that That is reflected statistically both in the rise, and put a little of that on the record? I am con- and during the 1980s, in women's wages relative vinced that being so misinformed about the re- to men's wages, and the increasing income dif- sources we have at hand produces a wrong mood ferential, both for high school graduates over for the country as we try to deal with the prob- nongraduates and for college graduates over oth- lems of designing our economic and racial fu- ers.I think what we have seen is physical ture. What has been the experience? strength has less market value than it used to, MR. LINDSEY. Well, at present, manufacturing and consequently, a decline in wages for people is as high, if not higher, a share of our national who primarily havenothing butphysical GNP than it has been at any time in the past. If strength to sell. we think back to the 1950s, and we think of steel COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. It is a change in mills and auto plants, we think of that as the the factory, a shift in factory inputs. halcyon age of industrialism. Well, in fact, man- MR. LINDSEY. It is a shift in the value of dif- ufacturing is a bigger share of our national out- ferent attributes that individuals bring to the put today than it was back then. We are manu- work force. facturing different things. Manufacturing is still COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Thank you, our leading industry. Second, during the last 10 Governor Lindsey. years, productivity in manufacturing has risen Mr. Murray, your optimism was based in part more than 40 percent. That is a pace that is on the assumption that the Huxtables would be more than twice the rise in European manufac- welcomed in most American affluent, all-white turing productivity and is roughly equivalent to neighborhoods. That has not been our experience Japanese manufacturing productivity growth as a Commission. In fact, we have a number of rates. In many, many industries, our manufac- studies that contradict that assumption. How turers are the low cost producers in the world much of your optimism is, in fact, based on that? and can meet all corners. I also don't want to diminish the notion that you COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. The decline in brought, that I think it is particularly important, entry level or unskilled workers' real wages is that part of what we are tracking is a class phe- certainly well-documented. What explanation do nomenon. I think that you are correct in saying you give for that? that the country has given too little attention to MR. LINDSEY. I am going to steal one, if I can, that. I am concerned because I don't share your from Chairman Greenspan, who when you're at opening assumption. the Fed, is always a good source. He has pointed MR. MURRAY. What is the nature of the find- out, and I think it is true, that although GNP is ings that you have studied, that you are refer- bigger, output is bigger than it was in the past, it ring to about the Huxtables? weighs less. The physical volume of what we put COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. The nature of out has shrunk, largely because of technological those findings arebased on statements under changes. oath from real estate brokers and agentsthat If you think about how that translates into there is, in fact, a pattern of steering black fami- what people are compensated for in the labor lies into integrated neighborhoods, and away market, it means that raw physical strength from affluent white neighborhoods. now has less value than it did in the past. If you MR. MURRAY. That wouldn't surprise me at went to, say, a steel mill 40 years ago, you would all, and I don't think it is inconsistent. In fact, see some pretty beefy guys moving some pretty this offers a good example of, I think, the way we heavy things of steel around. Now, if you go to need to disaggregate what the nature of the the same steel mill, you could see a young 98- problem is. Suppose that I am living in a neigh- pound woman pressing some keys on a com- borhoodand I am one of the white affluent fel- puter, and the forklift will come and move the lowsand I am living in a neighborhood which steel wherever the beefy guys used to. That, plus is in a large city, with a large black population, the overall lightening of our GNP again, means and a Dr. Huxtable wants to move into this that raw physical strength has less compensa- neighborhood. What are going to be my reaction than it used to. tions? Now let's not talk about my behavior, but

146 152 what do I think about it? It may very well be problem. You mentioned a little bit about incen- that in that case I would be concerned, and the tive-based programs. Could you say a little more reason I would be concerned is not necessarily about those? racist. MR. LINDSEY. Well, I think that my colleague The reason I would be concerned in that case on the panel, Mr. Peterson, mentioned the use of is because it is empirically, historically true that family allowances. I would point out we have a where there is an integration of urban neighbor- program that has advanced quite a bit in the hoods which are contiguous, a common pattern last 2 years in that regard, and that is the is that you reach a tipping point and the neigh- earned income tax credit, which was expanded borhoodchangesandthatfundamentally greatly as a result of 1990 legislation. There we changes the way of life in the neighborhood, the have an example of a pro-work-oriented proposal property values, and everything else. What I that is, indeed, targeted at individuals who have want to emphasize is: you may say that people families, who have children, who may not earn shouldn't feel that way, but don't quickly say enough by working to earn a significant living. I that is a racist reaction. If, on the other hand, think that is a very good example of the kind of you say that you are in an area where you do not program that is beneficial. have contiguous black neighborhoods, you are MR. GONZALEZ. Is it a refundable credit? not in an urban area, do I think that then you MR. LINDSEY. It is a refundable credit. We are going to have the lawyers and the physicians also, in 1986, doubled the personal exemption and the college professors trying to make sure and it is now indexed, so after years of seeing it that a black physician does not move into the decline, which is a way the tax system supports neighborhood? No, I don't think you are. That is families by lowering their taxes, I think that was the nature of my optimism. helpful. But I think the earned income tax COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Then the evi- credit, if you want to look for an example of a dence you are giving is how you would react in program that is working, and I don't mean that this situation? it is the end all, but I do think that it is an MR. MURRAY. Well, I am doing two things. example of a very well-targeted program in that One, I was trying to make the point that this area. sense that I have, which is anecdotal as I said in I also think that I agree with the comment the the presentation, has remarkably little in the Chairman made earlier, that perhaps we have to way of empirical studies to elucidate the ques- focus more attention on encouraging enterprise tion, "To what extent are whites reacting out ofin inner-city areas, and that is both a tax prob- racist reactions, and to what extent are they are lem and a social and provision of local public reacting to real things?" That is the reason I services problem. It is also a financial problem. I gave the death penalty example. I am saying think that encouraging black enterprise and mi- that the reason why there is so little investiga- nority enterprise is very important. I would tion of that is that, in many ways, it is extremely point out that we have had a great deal of suc- unpopular to come up with a conclusion that you cess in that area. aren't looking at racism, you are looking at The number of black-owned businesses in- something else. creased 50 percent between 1983 and 1987. COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Okay, thank There was an 83 percent increase in Hispanic- you. Governor Lindsey, I want to ask you what owned businesses. Women-owned businesses are the kinds of economic policies and programs and businesses owned by Oriental Americans that you would advocate for dealing with the also had significant growth rates. I think enter- problems of poverty, unemployment in our de- prise is always the best way of advancing, and I pressed economic areas? Our Chairman said elo- think we have to encourage it. quently yesterday that it didn't look to him like COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Governor, en- you could solve an economic problem with a so- terprise means credit and the Fed study that cial program. One of the things we have been was released last year showed a shocking, but doing at the Commission is considering and as- not surprising, pattern of racial discrimination sessing additional remedies to this intractable in the member banks' lending practices. I know

147 153 that that study was not one of the ones you mony, what effect did the cuts in welfare pay- worked on, but can you tell us what remedies ments that Mr. Peterson talked about have? Did are being discussed as a consequence of that they have any impact at all? study? MR. LINDSEY. I am sure they did. MR. LINDSEY. I think the study was an im- COMMISSIONER BERRY. The other question portant one. It gave us certainly some troubling that I wanted to ask is for Mr. Peterson. In your data. I would have to say that I would not draw proposal to use vouchers for educationyou as readily the conclusions from the data that didn't explain how this would work, and I know some have drawn in the press. The data involved you don't have time to, you weren't given time to an examination of rejection rates by income go into great detail of how this would in fact class, and the main thing to keep in mind is that operatebut would you be prepared to say that income class is rarely the reason used by banks in terms of dealing with the supply side problem for rejecting applicants. in education that you would be willing to have For people of all races, the primary criteria all the schools that are known to be good schools are credit criteria, and the loan-to-value ratio ofby the indicators everyone usestest scores, the residence being purchased. What we do at who goes to college, resources available, physical the Fed and what the other bank regulators do plant, the kinds of things that educators and when we go into a financial institution is look for others who have assessed schools would tell us what the criteria are for acceptance and make are measures of what would be a good school as sure that those criteria are applied for people of opposed to a bad schoolwould you be prepared all races. The study is an important one because to say that the good schools in a district or a it is going to help us in that task. Consider that State and the bad schools should somehow be there are something close to a million mortgage designated, and parents should be informed as applications we are talking about. We are talk- to what those are? Then we would have some ing about very complex mortgage application kind of lottery system so that vouchers could be forms. I am sure the members of the Commis- used so that everyone would have an equal sion have all filled one out and so have a sense of chance to pick a good school as opposed to get- how complicated it is. Our examiners at the cur- ting stuck with a bad school? Would you be will- rent time are limited to looking at a random ing to add that to your voucher proposal or sample. What we are going to do, instead, is something like that to make sure that there was have a computer program that is based on this an equitable opportunity to at least access the HMDA data that can actually target banks that supply of good schools, as opposed to ending up may have suspicious patterns and target individ- in bad schools? ual loans that may be problem loans. MR. PETERSON. My view is that you would However, I would not draw the conclusions have a period of transition that would not be that some have drawn in the press about dis- easy. We have discovered, from observing the crimination. In fact, the New York State Bank- former Soviet Union, that moving from a bu- ing Commission, and the report it issued after a reaucratized economy to a market economy is similar investigation, found that probably dis- not easy. It is difficult. We have now in education crimination is not as prevalent as was sug- a bureaucratized economy, so moving to a mar- gested, but I do think we still have to break it, I ket economy would not be easy. I would certainly think we have to stop it. I think the HMDA data appreciate the need to go slow and the need to will provide a useful tool in doing that. move in steps and carefully to a situation where COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Thank you. Mr. families were given equal amounts of money Chairman, thank you. with adjustments for specific needs that specific CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right, you are families might have, especially families with welcome. Commissioner Berry, please? handicapped children, but then that family COMMISSIONER BERRY. Thank you, Mr. Chair- would have a choice. man. First, let me ask Governor Lindseythe I feel that, in a reasonable period of time, the cash income deterioration for black families who concept of good schools and bad schools that is so were least well off that you cite in your testi- much a part of the American tradition, would be

148 154 replaced by what we find at the college level in intelligence, resourcefulness, and thoughtfulness the UnitedStates. We find a tremendous to care about their children's education. amount of variation in colleges. There are col- COMMISSIONER BERRY. We have a State con- leges that have a higher reputation than other stitutional requirement in our States that chil- colleges do. But there is also a feeling that there dren be provided with a minimally adequate are a lot of good schools out there, andthat there educationin some Statesit says adequate is no one good college that is just right for every- educationand that an education is compulsory. body, but there is a place that is right for each We do have some standards, some minimal stan- person. My view is that the lottery system re- dard and some minimal notion of what we ought duces choice, and I would be reluctant to move to to require, which means that most of our litiga- a lottery system. tion has been trying to make sure that there is I do think that we would want to provide as an equitable education, a fair educationwithin much information to parents as we possibly can, those standards provided to everyone. Would and much more information than we now have, your voucher system maintain that sortof re- about what is happening in schools, so that they quirement or would we simply go to an open can make intelligent decisions as towhether system? they would like to send their child to the school. MR. PETERSON. We would have to make sure COMMISSIONER BERRY. Could you tell me that schools meet certain standards. One would whether you think that there are distinctions be- want to provide the greatest amount of choice. tween the goals we have in sending students to Our society would not allow schools to exist that elementary and secondary schools, which are didn't meet certain minimum standards unless compulsoryeveryone attendsand the goals they were provided by public school bureaucra- we have in making sure thatpeople have access cies. We now allow schools to fall way below min- to higher education, where attendance is not imum acceptable standards. It is hard for me to compulsory, and where we have very different believe that we would let private schools fall so goals? Don't you think that this distinction re- low and continue to exist. quires additional responsibility on the part of COMMISSIONER BERRY. That basically what those who make policy to determine that every- we would have is students who gotinto good one has access to a chance to a goodeducation, schools would have a wonderful time, which as I as opposed to simply saying, youknow, "Here is understand from the New York Times front page your voucher; go sink or swim"? story in January on the choice system in En- MR. PETERSON. Well, we have the sink or gland, what happened as a result and that is swim philosophy with the Pell grants. We let where this idea, I guess, came from. Students young people choose. who got into good schools and their parents were COMMISSIONER BERRY. But that is higher edu- happy and so were the teachers. They were cation, sir. funded; everybody was happy. Most of the stu- MR. PETERSON. That is true. I believe that dents didn't get into good schools because there higher education and elementary education have weren't enough good schools, and their parents a lot in common; that is to say,families want were very unhappy and theteachers were un- their children to learn from the first day they happy and they lacked resources. But if I under- are born, and that does not change overtime. stand you correctly, this is a transitional prob- Families are very committed to the education of lem, which unfortunately those who bear it will their children. have to bear, but that over time you think that If you take away from the family any control the system that would replace it would be won- over their education, then they aren'tgoing to derful. Did I understand you correctly? spend their time and energy and focus thinking MR. PETERSON. When I began studying the about what is the right school for my child. But schools, which was 30 years ago, I was commit- you give them the power, and withthat power ted to reforming the central city public schools, will come a commitment to choose a good school and I worked on that problem for a long time. I right from the beginning. I do not believe that have gone through the transition, the waiting any family of any background does not havethe and the waiting for the public schools. I have

149 155 heard all the statements that are being made the race of the victim was the variable that today about reforming the schools, fixing up the made a difference, not the race of the alleged schools, paying the teachers more salaries, defendant or the person who was convicted. In adapting, changing the control of the schools, cases where blacks were the victim it was less giving parents more rights to participate in edu- likely that their murderer would be executed cation. I have seen only steady deterioration. than cases where whites were the victim. Mr. I realize that moving to a choice-based system Powell explained in that decision that, while this will have a period of transition that will have its was discrimination on the basis of race, he did difficulties. Anybody would be foolish who didn't not feel it was sufficient to overturn the execu- realize that fact. But I cannot see that that tion that was at issue. would be going in a direction that is worse than Finally, on your testimony, Mr. Murray, you the direction that we are currently headed. stated, if I understood you correctly, that whites COMMISSIONER BERRY. My last questions are who do not consider themselves racists do not directed at Mr. Murray. Mr. Murray, to follow up, want to in public say that they don't consider I found your ability to evade the question that themselves racists or that they are not racists my colleague, Commissioner Redenbaugh, asked because they don't want the grief. Well, I was on you a wonderful example of maximum dexterity the Donahue show a week before the Rodney exhibited in public. But the Commission does King verdict came in and an audience was there, have a study that he was referring to done on which was mostly white, and we were discussing housing with people under oath, people who Andrew Hacker's book on race and when he told bought houses, Realtors, and so on, and that them that racism existed, that they all were data that he described to you is in that study. I probably racists, they all screamed and booed at would simply ask that the Commission agree, if him and said, "We are not racists. There is no there is no objection, to put the conclusions con- racism." At least on that occasion there were cerning the taste and preferences of those who people who described themselves in public, on bought houses from that study in the record at television, as not being racists. There is also this point, so that we would have it available to polling data which would indicate the same us as we consider the record. Because the record'thing, although I think that the Donahue show, did show, as Commissioner Redenbaugh indi- circus as I call it, is one example where this was cated, that even affluent whites expressed a done in public. preference not to have African Americans. There I just wondered what you made of all these was more preference when they were presented examples. In any case, I think you are quite with the prospect of Asians moving into the right that class plays a major role in some of neighborhood, slightly less with Hispanics, and these problems that we have, but I just won- whether they were affluent or not, not much dered if any of these observations would cause with the blacks. If we could just put that in the you to modify in any way anything you have record in the interest of time, we can use it for said? the purposes. MR. MURRAY. I would have thought that the I wanted to ask you about the Baldus study, least applicable adjective to describe my presen- and the other studies on the Georgia death pen- tation today was evasive. I was trying to be as alty. I am aware of those studies. They were utterly direct as I could. With regard to the Bal- used in a Supreme Court case called McClesky v. dus study, you are quite right. It was the black Kemp, and I ask that my colleagues without ob- victim versus white victim which was one of the jection, place along with Mr. Murray's testimony main dynamics, and similarly on the analysis of and this question period, that case in the record Professor Barnett, this was the kind of thing so that we can have it available. which upon closer examination sort of faded The study was inserted there, and Mr. Justice away. There wasn't the racial discrimination Powell, who wrote the opinion in that case, ex- that was previously thought. It wasn't meant to plained that what was at issue was not whether prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there wasn't black defendants were given the death penalty any at all. I was trying to make, I think, a more more often, but what the study showed was that nuanced point, which is to say, we tend to think

150 156 and look at data in big lumpy terms. We don't All the hands go up saying that they genu- tend to take real close looks at it and try to get inely want their children to go to socially, eco- within the black box of what is going on, and nomically, and racially heterogeneous schools, what the motives are and the rest of it, and we and they mean it, to which the followup question ought to stop doing that. That was my main is, "What makes you think that you are so much point. better than most of the parents in this country?" With regard to the Donahue show, I think I think that is a legitimate question. We are im- there is a very important distinction to be made. prisoned inside our own individual worries about When I said whites, I said the whites in this what all the rest of these folks are like out there, room. There is in this country, among a broad and I think it would be helpful sometimes to spectrum of middle America a vociferous state- start from the presumption that maybe things ment that we are not racists, in public. Of that aren't as bad as we think. there is no question, and the members of the COMMISSIONER BERRY. Well, I am not as fond Donahue audience fall into that category. Among of the nuances as you are, and perhaps things the members of the faculty of Harvard Univer- are different in the halcyon groves of American sity, and the staff of American Enterprise Insti- Enterprise Institute and Harvard, but in the tute, and perhaps the Board of Governors of the halcyon groves of Penn, there are many people Fed, and perhaps the Civil Rights Commission, who would say that they are not racists, but I and a lot of other of the elite institutions of this leave it at that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I country, there is a real reluctance to do that. I appreciate the time. think the dynamic is not just unwillingness to CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. You are welcome. take the grief. There is another aspect that I Mr. Wang? think that is equally important, and this is VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you, Mr. something that I think we ought to think about Chairman. I just want to follow up on this one. I for awhile. was really fascinated by this. We say to ourselves, a lot of usI am talking Put in the world context, one-fifth of the about whites now in these elite institutions human race are Chinese, and I would say that "Well, I am not a racist, but the fact is a lot ofChinese are racists since we have that large people are." Even if I try to make the case that number. If you look at the history you know, racism isn't really a problem with me and a lot down to this point, China considers itself the of the people I know, that is doing the devil's center of the world. From that framework, I work because there are these other people out think the Chinese are the most racist people in there that are worse than I am that I am going the world. to be providing excuses for. Professor Scott earlier talked about deperson- When I talk myself about voucher systems be- alizing this whole debate on racial differences. fore college audiencesbecause I am also an ad- What do you think about depersonalizing it from vocate of voucher systems or tuition tax credit just a black and white situation, to look at from systemsI always get the objection from a stu- our current picture in America as a multiethnic, dent that says, "Well, if you do that you will end multicultural society? Would you say in that con- up with segregated schools, and all the rich kids text we will be able to talk about it more openly, would go to school with each other." there will be less hesitancy to discuss it in pub- I say to the students, "Now, if you are a par- lic, that we will be more, shall we say, honest ent or when you are a parent, what kind of with ourselves? school do you want your child to go to? I am not MR. MURRAY. I think that there is a special talking about in terms of social justice. I am say- problem, a unique problem, and this will come ing in terms of your child's own best develop- as no surprise to anyone, regarding whites and ment. Do you want your child to go to a lily blacks in this country because of the history of white, everybody's affluent kind of school, or do this country under slavery. It has been my expe- you want your child to go to a good school, rience that in fact with regard to Asians and equally good academically, which is socially, and whites, the level of tension is not only much economically and racially heterogeneous?" lower, the level of openness is much higher.

151 157 I was not only in Thailand, I was married for 13 This has greatly increased the tendency towards yearstoa Thai womanhalf Thai,half residential segregation. Chineseand I found out after our engagement If parents knew that they could pick a school was announced that my mother-in-law at that which would have minorities present in it, but time said that, "Well, Charlie is okay, but one that it would be a good school, and that the Caucasian in the family was enough." school would be racially balanced so that there That kind of racism is easily dealt with and it would be a variety in the schoolit wouldn't be- is pretty much out in the open, and we can laugh come a school in which their children would feel about it. It is hard to laugh about blacks and isolatedthenIbelieve that many parents whites in this country because of the special his- would move back to our central cities. There are tory. I think that is the great barrier that we many parents who would like to raise their fami- have to overcome. Everything I have said today, lies in central cities but choose not to do so be- not to say that I think it is going to be easy, but I cause of the school situation. think we have got to start the process of opening I see housing as important, but secondary, to it up someplace. these other considerations. I think that if we can VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Professor Peter- enhance the income of our lowest income popula- son, your description of a comprehensive ap- tions through a system of family allowances, this proach, I think, certainly makes a lot of sense. I will allow poor people to obtain more affordable think that with many of our problems today, we housing because their income situation will not don't look at the total picture. But in your de- be as severe. Rather than having a program scription of the total picture, I don't see that aimed specifically at housing, I would prefer to housing was mentioned. If you can enlighten us treat these more fundamental areas. a little bit about where do you see housing in VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. I agree with you that scenario? If we still have such a housing except I thought that if we continue to allow the division, poor families will still go back to a di- same kind of housing policy, even minorities lapidated neighborhood, which they would not with money, as Commissioner Berry has just have any respect for so they don't mind burning mentioned, still cannot move into certain neigh- it. They don't mind destroying it. Are we going to borhoods. come out of this cycle? MR. PETERSON. Well, we have laws on the MR. PETERSON. I did not speak about housing, books that supposedly are addressing that. I re- I suppose, because I think that housing is not alize that they don't, in fact. I guess the other fundamental. Fundamental is jobs, income, edu- thing I can say is that maybe I just don't have cation. Housing and residential space is import- the quick answer today. ant, and we will get gains in that area once we VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Okay, thank you. have gains in the other areas. It is absolutely Governor Lindsey, when you talked about true that residential housing is as segregated manufacturing in your conversation with Com- along racial lines in 1990 as it was 30 years ago, missioner Redenbaugh, I just thought, if we con- virtually almost the same. It is a very serious tinue to emphasize our manufacturing is at the problem. We have made very little progress lower end of types of manufacturing, we are there. I think we have made very little progress never going to be able to compete with Mexico, there because we have made very little progress or with some of the other lower wage areas like in these other domains. China, or many other Latin American countries. One reason why I think we must give choice Most of the jobs will go into those areas, and in education is because today, the only way you again, America's economy is going tosuffer. get choice in education is through residential Would you think if we continue to develop higher choice. We do have choice in housing, and white end manufacturing, with higher skills,with people make a tremendous effort to ensure that quality types of jobs that really will sustain one's their children have a minimally adequate educa- family, with better education and better training tional experience by locating in a neighborhood that those jobs will stay here? Those jobs will where they think the schools are pretty good. actually help our economy overall. If we continue to compete with the developing countries, we are

152 158 going to lose because of the pricing, because of COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. I would like to focus the competition. first on a conversation. First of all I would like to MR. LINDSEY. I don't believe that the U.S. has go back and review the fact that we are here to moved into the bottom end of manufacturing. I discuss racial tensions, and the fact that there think quite the opposite. The products that we are racial tensions that seem to be on the rise in are not manufacturing today that we used to are most American communities all over this coun- those that are most easily assembled. They are try. Some of the reasons that we have heard the ones that have gone overseas. What we spe- about this rise in racial tensions has been unem- cialize in today and where we are going like ployment, education issues, and money issues. gangbusters is areas like machine tools, which When you talk about educational vouchers, we are the most sophisticated manufacturing prod- are going into a sophisticated, elaborateexpla- ucts. nation of how you are going to determine the It is interesting, where we have the edge monies here. When these vouchers are assessed, today is in those products that the rest of the what will be the criteria that says, "Here is the world needs to develop. Those are machine tools, money you receive"? You are saying to a parent, construction machinery, aircraft, medical equip- "Here is your voucher, go to this school." What ment. Those are our export industries. As the quantities of monies? What do you figure in this rest of the world develops, they buy those prod- quantity of monies? ucts from us. I don't think we are concentrating MR. PETERSON. May I give you an example of at the low end. Quite the contrary, I think we what they are doing in the State of Wisconsin at have moved up scale. the present time? The State gives the city of Mil- VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Are we really in- waukee $2,500 a year, approximately, for the ed- vesting enough in research and development to ucation of every child in the public schools of increase jobs in those areas you are talking Milwaukee. Milwaukee itself, out of its own tax about? For the products on the lower end, our resources comes up with another$3,000 or a actual earnings have decreased. So if we have total of about $5,500. more effort in those areas, our earningsshould Now, in Wisconsin a new law has said that the not decrease. $2,500 will be given directly to families for no MR. LINDSEY. I think it is important to note more than a certain number of families,and all that one of the reasons productivity has risen so families must be of low income. Those families, if dramatically is that we are developing more so- they are willing to send their child to a secular phisticated productionprocesses. While our schoolit is not part of the public school sys- manufacturing output has risen more than 40 temthen the State of Wisconsin will give that percent, the number of employees producing $2,500 to that nonpublic but secular school. that output hasn't budged. It is the same as it Now I think this program has deficiencies in was 10 years ago. That is what productivityis; it it. One major deficiency is the nonpublic school is more output per worker, and that is exactly only gets $2,500 for each child, whereas the Mil- what we have. Do you understand my point? You waukee public schools get $5,500 for each child. can't square the circle here. I think that there is The second deficiency is that religiously based no question that higher rates of investment are schools can't participate in this program, depriv- good, higher rates of education are good. My ob- ing parents of the choice of providing a different servation was that we should notbelittle kind of a setting for their child. Nonetheless, America's capacity to compete in the world be- even though only parents who haveincome of cause, in fact, our manufacturing base has done less than one-and-a-half times the poverty line quite a job in the last 10 years at bringing itself are allowed to participate in this program,if you up to world class standards, and that wasthe look at the data that comes in, these parents limit of my comment. hated the public schools. They just love these VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you. schools their kids are sent to, and the kids are CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. Commis- doing better in these schools at less than half the sioner Buckley? price. At less than half the price, these kids are doing better in these schools.

153 159 This is the end of the first year evaluation was a problem about which people said, "We care that I am reporting on. Maybe the second year so much about this that we are not going to let evaluation will come up with different numbers, transportation stand in the way." I think the I don't know. But the first year, which was a very same is true here. We care so much about the difficult transition year, was remarkably suc- education of our children that we can't let trans- cessful. This is not the best system, but it gives portation problems stand in the way. you an idea of how such a system could work. If COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. This is for Mr. Mur- every child had the same amount of money from ray. We have some quotes here and you may re- the State as is now going for public schools, and fute them. There is an article that appeared in it went to whatever school the parents selected, the Washington Post April 17 on underclass facts then the monies could be used much more equi- and myths. You make the comment the paper tably than today. said, "Some problems can be separated and Today we don't have the same amount of solved individually. Helping the poor is one money being spent on every child. There are thing," he said. "If you are talking about helping enormousdifferencesamong oursuburban the underclass I would have to take issue. There school districts and our rural districts and our is no evidence we know how to do that. We have central city school districts. If we really want no evidence as to how we can help the under- equality in education, then why not give equal class." amounts of money for every child in a given We hear everywhere we go that we need to get State and let the parents choose which school the blacks that are unemployed and under- will get the money? educated up and out of this through education. COMMISSIONER BUCKLEY. Part of the problem Hispanics, they are in the same position. What that I see and I know it is happening now, is can we do to make sure that they move? thatsay a school district sets up a magnet Examples are out there: you sit down and fill schoolover thereand these families live over out a financial aid form and if you are upper, here, but they don't have a car, and they don't lower class or lower middle class, you take a long have bus service. How are they going to get over time to fill out all the paperwork, and the only there because over there they don't want to thing you get back from it is your parents are spend the money that they got for those students going to have to put together $6,000. Of course, on busing? Fuel costs are exorbitant; in Texas we they don't have disposable income of $6,000 a have to go from gasoline to another kind of fuel year to send these kids to school. You apply for a system, so they are going to have to reequip the JTPA program and you are just barely inched buses. They are going to say the school is here, out because you have too much income. You can't your voucher can come here, but I don't know get in. So how do we get them to move up? You how you are going to get your kid over there. can't go to college. You can't buy it. You can't pay MR. PETERSON. This has been a problem in for it. You can't go into these JTPA programs for Milwaukee. The transportation issue has been training because you have too much money even an issue. About the only complaint the parents though you are on food stamps and receive So- have is that their children sometimes have to cial Security or AFDC. What do we do?because travel too far to school. Over time you are going we need to move the children-50 percent of the to get schools developing in every neighborhood, children are in povertyout of there. How do we a church, especially if you let churches partici- move them? pate in this, or synagogues or temples. Then MR. MURRAY. I guess the easiest thing to do is they will begin to create their own schools in to explain what I was referring to in that quote. each and every neighborhood. If you have dealt with newspaper reporters, you I agree with you this problem of transporta- know yourselfWhat I was saying is that there tion will be one of the big problems in the short are certain kinds of problems we don't know how run; it is a problem now. The whole idea of creat- to deal with, which is to say if you take 100 ing magnet schools within the public school sys- women who have been on welfare for several tem, and our whole attempt to achieve desegre- years, or you take 100 young men who have gation through busing, which completely failed, never been in the job market and they are in

154 160 their early twenties, do we know how, do we items that you identified at the last paragraph of have any programs that can change the behavior your remarks aboutincentive-orientedpro- of a large chunk of those, not just the margins, grams, lower rates of taxation, lower hurdles to but a large chunk, and the answer is no. We owning one's business, greater opportunities for really don't know how in a technological sense, if home ownership, that is the corporate or com- you want to put it that way, tosolve certain munity side of the initiative. It responds or it kinds of problems. enables, or it empowers an individual initiative. The kind of thing we do know how to do, Could you talk to us a little bit, specifically, pretty effectively, is to lend a helping hand to about what you think ought to be done, or what people who are already trying to help them- you would recommend to us in terms of a re- selves. I think that there are lots of things we sponse to the situation, particularly in LosAnge- can do to help somebody who is trying to getinto les and other urban areas that face similar kind a school situation or a trainingsituation and of difficulties now? says, "Look, I am going to work hardand come MR. LINDSEY. Mr. Anderson, I think you are every day and do all I am supposed todo. What I asking a very good point. I was in Los Angeles a need is a chance to get into the program." That week ago Monday addressing the California kind of thing we can we do. Bankers Association. I would ask the Commis- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Commissioner An- sion to have those remarks put into the record. I derson? will be happy to send them over. I had a number COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Thank you, Mr. of suggestions in there of what the financial ser- Chairman. I thought this was a very interesting vices industry could do I think that those, per- panel because it focused on the fact that there is haps, sum up one approach. good news and bad news. I found particularly COMMISSIONER ANDERSON. Dr. Murray, I ap- interesting Governor Lindsey's observation ofpreciate your candor. It seems to me that the the rise in black median income at a greater rate phenomena that you relate about white people than white median income during the period of not believing, and perhaps honestly not believ- the 1980s. It seems to me that, too often, the ing, that they are racists or prejudiced or engage discussions we hear about the topic we are in that kind of conduct, I think it is helpful to us, studying today tend to be between people who you bringing that out. I say thatbecause, in the can talk only about the good newsand people imagery that we had from the Donahue show, it who can talk only about the bad news. While seems to me, often, that what happensis that we they both have some truth about what they say, get people on both sides yelling, as in the good they don't have all the truth about it, and, there- news, bad news polarity, "We are not racists, you fore, there is a lack of resonance between the are racists; we are not racists, you areracists." sides of the debate. So to me this is helpful be- Because people really may not believe it, that cause it begins to focus us on where Ithink we they are racists, somehow the discussion about ought to be focused, and that is that there is a the prejudice that blacks perceive they face in success that we ought to be awareof, and yet society, and do indeed face in society, again does there are still very significant deficiencies. I am not resonate in the larger white community, reminded of de Tocqueville's reflections on the which has the resources, but perhaps not the revolution in France. I think he makes the same way yet, to correct that situation. It seems to me type of point regarding the intensity of criticism the job of this Commission is, in large measure, of a government which begins reforms, but has to find a way of resonating the black experience not yet completed the reform process. I think, to the white community in a way in which it will perhaps, we are seeing some of that in evidence be believable to the white community, and a way yesterday and today during these hearings. in which it will make a difference in the white Governor Lindsey, you have emphasized in community. I think too often the way, again, the your remarks individual initiative. Yesterday we debate is polarized, we don't do that; in fact, we heard panelists say that we should not focus on do the opposite of that. I would like you to re- individual initiative, we should focus on collec- spond. I am not sure that is a question, but I tive or corporate community initiatives. The would like you to respond.

155 161 MR. MURRAY. I would like to agree with you. I possibly can in any given period? I am not even think that, if we start to talk more about class going to discuss whether whites are racists or and about behavior and so forth, we could make blacks are racists or Chinese or Japanese or any the following kind of statement to white Amer- of the rest. To a degree we are all tinged with ica, which no President has really said, neither racism. It depends on the amount of our behav- Ronald Reagan nor for that matter Jimmy ior that it controls, when it does kick in. Carter nor anybody else, nor Lyndon Johnson. There is an assumption that the more eco- That is, "Okay, whites, you don't have to love all nomic means that I have in my possession the black people. If there is a woman who has sev- later in the scale it kicks in. It doesn't kick in at eral babies and she is on welfare and the rest of the McDonald stand level anymore, since I can that, and you want to look down at her, that is buy a Big Mac. However, I do find it kicking in fine. But by the same token, the other woman the city at certain white cloth restaurants. Even down the street, who is a black woman who is though I have the means to be there, and dress working two jobs because she doesn't want to be well enough and know which fork to useI on welfare, and she is raising her kids to study learned that when I was waiting tables, which hard and teaching them all the same values that fork, which knife, and those sort of things to you are teaching your kids, that woman you do usethere are those that feel a little uncomfort- have to respect, because she shares the values able when they see me experiencing life at their you have." In that kind of appeal, I think we level. Sometimes I think they have the problem have a way of forming links across races, which of saying, "If he is in here performing and func- have been very badly sundered. Once again, let tioning at my level, than obviously I am inferior, me refer to the massive lumpy way we tried to not him, because I know the roadblocks we put deal with race relations, where white people are in his way to get here and he has gotten here in supposed to feel badly about the way they have spite of it. It could be that I am inferior not him." treated black people and that hasn't worked. I leave that to them. I just try to enjoy my steak What can work is to call upon our common kin- or fish or whatever it is and don't worry about it. ship grounded in values and behavior, which are Now, I said that to say this, I have been wait- shared across wide numbers of people of both ing a long time to see the financial service indus- races. We ought to start doing that. tries get suited up to get into this ball game. I CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very think they have a great deal of the resources much. I am going to address my comments to needed to improve the quality of life for the indi- government. Let me start by saying that, as I vidual as well as the household. In 1977 the said a moment ago, for about 40 years I have put Congress passed a bill, as you are aware, called my hopes in the belief that if we tried, tried the the Community Reinvestment Act. I want to free enterprise system in depressed neighbor- share with you my testimony before the Senate hoods, provided them with the means to enhance Banking Finance and Urban Affairs Committee. the quality of their lives, individually at the Here is what I said, "In 1977 the Community household level, and throughout the institutions Reinvestment Act established the responsibility within the neighborhoods that service them, that of financial institutions to meet the credit needs we can experience an enhanced quality of life of the communities where they do business. The and an improved capacity to participate in the act's primary purpose was to end patterns of society, racism notwithstanding. I happen to be- discrimination and disinvestment in housing; lieve that we can hope to do things that haven't it also required banks and savings and loan in- been done before, possibly in my lifetime, but I stitutions to meet community needs for other am not going to live long enough to see things, to types of loans, for small businesses, for commer- do things, that haven't quite happened before. I cial development, and for industrial develop- don't recall reading in history anywherewe ment. Since its enactment, however, the CRA eradicated racism before the U.S. became the has not succeeded on either front. It has not U.S. or anything else. The question is how do created an initiative in the banking industry to you manage it in a way that a civilization and a end redlining in providing home mortgages, nor society can reach as much of its potential as it has it increased business development within

156 162 low-income or minority communities. Data re- The data gets to be very complex, and the more leased by the Federal Reserve Board lastfall you look at it, the tougher it is.What I would confirmed that racial disparities on a national define as managing the problem of unacceptable scale continue to exclude large segmentsof discrimination is, if a standard is established for Americans from access to credit." white applicants, but a different standard exists That is critical, as you know, because this is a for black applicants, that is absolutely wrong. credit economy when it is all said and done. Each individual must be graded on the same "Figures gathered by the Fed demonstrate standard, when we go in and do an investigation that, if you are black, it is twice as likely that that is the standard we use. your mortgage applicationwill be rejected as it We look at both accepted and rejected appli- is if you are white even if your income isthe cants, to make sure that rejected applicantswho same. If you live in a low incomeneighborhood, may be black or Hispanic ormembers of other many lenders probably have nodesire to provide groups, were not rejectedbecause the criteria loans for mortgages in your neighborhood any- were different. We alsomake sure that criteria .way." Then I spell out the flaws. were not lowered for whiteapplicants. That is "The major flaws of the CRA are clear. First, how we have to do it on a case-by-case basis. the law does not require institutions tomake a In regard to the aggregate HMDA data, it was specific number of loans in a given area. Second, not a case-by-case analysis. It was, as youob- the CRA's rating of lenders dependsheavily on served, sampled by income, but in none ofthe the institutions' ability to produce reamsof racial groupsnot for whites, not for blacks, not paperwork, rather than on how much money it for Hispanicsis income the criteria; it is not puts back into the communities.Third, regula- even the first, second,third, or fourth most com- tors are not enforcing the law aggressively.Even monly used criteria for accepting or rejecting if they were, however, there are nosubstantive loans. The most common criteria for whites, penalties for violators. Finally, no objective cri- blacks, and Hispanics is credit history.The sec- teria exists by which banks or savings andloans ond most common criteria is loan-to-valueratio can be judged for being incompliance under the on the home involved.That is something that we CRA." I will stop and ask for your response to don't have in the HMDA data, so we don'tknow discrimi- those citings. from the aggregate data whether it was MR. LINDSEY. Mr. Chairman, you havelaid nation going on or whether it was loan-to-value out quite a bit. Let me say that I think youhave ratio. described as eloquently as I have ever heard ex- We have to move aggressively to managethe actly what our challenge is, and that is to man- problem, and I suggest three steps, particularly age the problem, andmake sure that it does not for home mortgages. The first is that in a num- been play a role in public life. ber of cities, mortgage review boards have Let me begin with your observation aboutthe established. Boston, Detroit, and Philadelphia HMDA data, data that we released. Commis- and I understand, last week, that New Yorkjust sioner Redenbaugh asked me about itbriefly. established one. In those cities applications from The first factor that is important to keep in mind members of minority groups who are rejected in is that that data is of substantial concern to us. some cases can, and in some casesautomatically Thanks to technology, we are going to be arming are forwarded to reviewboards that have objec- all of our field examiners who do CRA with a tive criteria to look at each mortgage. Ithink computerized model so that when they walk into that is helpful. I think it conveys exactly the a bank, they do not as theydid in the pastlook kind of managing the process that you men- for discrimination by using a random sample tioned. but look at precise loan applications and go right Second, I think that we have to do more on to the bottom of it. Anything that lookssuspi- education. It is amazing how many consumers in cious, they will be able to target right away.I this country don't have any idea what a loan-to- think the HMDA data provide a very useful tool. value ratio is, or how they, as individuals, can Having said that, I do not share the conclu- set up their financial affairs to ensure success sion of the summary data that you mentioned. when they apply for their first mortgage. Iknow

157 163 I learned a lot when I applied for my first mort- $175, almost $200 billion market aftertaxes. If gage, and I was relatively advantaged in under- we look at the Asian markets and others that standing the data. I have encouraged banks to make up our minority communities andstart go out and work with community groups and in looking at the money now, and the schools to convey basic amount that consumer education so they have that we will call for discussionpur- that they can succeed when they apply fortheir poses "discretionary income after taxes," they mortgages and loans. seem like pretty good markets to me. Yet, when Finally, I think banks, themselves, shoulduse we talk to the financial services industry, they their own employees or some other mechanism want incentives to go make money in theirmar- to shop their own banks and report back to man- ket. I don't quite understand that. Whatkind of agement how they are treated. I think thisgets incentives are we talking about? back to managing theprocess. It may bein MR. LINDSEY. Well, Iam not sure what they fact, I think it is probably likelythatthere is are talking about. I think your point is well subliminal, subtle discrimination goingon, and I taken, that there are a lot of profitable think oftentimes the discriminator opportu- may not even nities out there. With regard to CRA, Iam also know what he or she is doing. I tendto believe the Board's representativeon the Board of the people to want to solve problems and ifit is Neighborhood Reinvestment Corporation. I have pointed out, the person will correct theiraction. travelled around the country and I haveseen a I am recommending that banksuse a shopping lot of good things goingon. I commend to you a technique within their own institutionsto get at lot of that. that. I know it is a long answer toyour question, That I think is brought about by CRA,so I but I hope I addressed it. think that there are a lot of positive thingsgoing CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I also included in on. Sure, more needs to be done. But I do think my testimony thatI will read the paragraph. that CRA is probably working better than itmay "In our upcoming hearingson racial tensions, appear to be on the surface. As I go into individ- the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights willexam- ual neighborhoods and see the kinds of invest- ine the Community Reinvestment Act's effective- ments that are made, I am encouraged. I know ness, both nationally and in various locations. patience is a lousy thing to have to suggest, but I Our purpose will be to identify and recommend think we are making sa tremendousamount of to the Congress, not only improvements in that progress, I think the economics that you men- act, but new ways to break down credit barriers. tioned are going to leadour financial services Included in our study will be the feasibility of industry to where the profitsare. I think that we creating new incentive programs to getour fi- made a lot of progress in the last 10years and nancial institutions to recognize low and moder- we will continue to in the next 10. ate income neighborhoods as attractive, viable CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. NowasI have markets. I urge the Congress to embarkon this talked to some of the people whoare bank em- exploration as well." ployees responsible for implementing andcarry- Question: When we talk about incentives, I ing out their documented commitment,some of have learned that theway to get things done in them were very candid withme and said, "Art, this country is tourge people to do the right this represents our response to the law, butnot thing, not because it is the right thing, butbe- our response to the recognition that there isa cause we give them an incentive to do it.I market out there." In other words, "Weare doing learned that at the Labor'Departmentsome 20 this because the lawcoerces us into doing it," if years ago. What kind of incentive do we need to you will. With all of the investigation thatgoes get the banks and the financial service industry into identifying housing opportunitiesthisone to look upon servicing depressed neighborhoods spells out, for example, this is the SouthLos as a viable market? Now I will makea point Angeles Community Reinvestment Actthey that, when you read thecensus data, it is kind of talk about the homes in south Los Angelesthat interesting that it indicates that the blackcom- are 60 years of age or older, and a number of munity, for an example, isa $275 billion market other things, they identified the need for housing after taxes, that the Hispaniccommunity is a there, they identified the need for various other

158 164 things. That is a part of the Bank of America CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. We would like to and Security Pacific, before they could merge, have it. Now, let me say that there is another they put this together. They have actually ear- financial reporting requirement for all financial marked $12 billion for reinvestment in the de- institutions. The law was just passed in 1990. pressed neighborhood. FIRREA (Financial Institutions Reform, Recov- MR. LINDSEY. Right. ery and Enforcement Act, 12 USC § 14.37).If CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Now what I am that information is properly filed it is going to hearing is that this was done in the spirit ofexpose something that this nation as awhole complying with the law, but not so much in the has never really wanted to expose, and that is spirit of recognizing that south Los Angeles is a the consistent rate of disparities, critical dispari- market. ties, year after year after year. In short, Con- MR. LINDSEY. Well, I think that is unfortun- gress, the Nation, and the world are going tobe ate, because I want to make sure they make on notice that the financial servicesindustry has money on that money or we, as bankregulators, some real problems when those disparities come have got to worry about them. in and they will be coming in all the time. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. That is right. First let me say that Congress, the President, MR. LINDSEY. I think the observation is an nobody is going to be able to suggest that there unfortunate one, but I think that the very fact isn't a problem here. Now it might not be race. I that they said that they were willing to commit am not one who says that all ofthese disparities $12 billion to community development just to are the product of race. In fact, inthe Griggs comply with the law is evidence that maybe the decision they recognized a thing called "business law is having some effect. I know that CRA was necessity." And "business necessity" suggests something we looked at very, very carefully be- that minorities and women can be impacted in a fore we approved the Bank of America-Security disparate fashion, not because of their gender or Pacific merger, I think that the example you just because of their race, but because of business gave is a good example that there is alot going necessity. We have to do it this way. Once that on, maybe for the wrong reasons, but atleast it information surfaces every year, I expect to see a is going on. few banks and others get behind the `business CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Is it fair for me to necessity" cloud and try to explain away the dis- assume that these kind of agreements nowexist parity, and stay as far away from race as they in all 12 Federal Reserve regions? possibly can. A lot of that effort will be legiti- MR. LINDSEY. One of the reports we get, not mate, but at the same time the disparity is going only for a merger, but if you want to open up a to be there. I am interested in knowing if the branch or anything, is a CRA report that has to financial institutions are aware of what they be filed. have opened themselves up to with reference to CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Is there a clearing- agreeing to allow those records to be filed every house of these so that we can get a look at them year? and examine them? Mr. Lindsey. Well, I wouldn't want to speak MR. LINDSEY. What is publicly availableand for the banks. I always get nervous when I talk about specific CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Speak for yourself lawsyou can get a CRA report on a bank. then. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. What I understand MR. LINDSEY. I think it is helpful. I think get- is that these agreements just have to be in one ting this information out is helpful. What I hope central location; they don't have to be at all loca- will happen is that we will see a continuing tions. Are you familiar with that? trend of reduced disparities as time goes on now MR. LINDSEY. To the best of my recollection, that the data is coming out every year. you can get it from a local bank, but Mr. Chair- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I will conclude my man, if I could answer that question in writing, questioning and observations by saying that I when I check what the actual details are, I have been invited to the Hill this afternoon to sit would appreciate it. down and talk with Senator Riegle about my remarks with referenceto the Community

159 165 Reinvestment Act. I assured him before going up MS. BOOKER. Mr. Chairman, members of the that, when we get through with our series of Commission, the next panel is on socioeconomic hearings, we will probably want to go up there factors, part two. Professor Bates, Ms. Bessant, and have a public hearing and make recommen- Mr. Fishbein, Dr. Tidwell, may I ask each of you dations. We would like very muchI am speak- to limit your remarks to 10 minutes, after which ing for myself, but I think the Commission will the Commissioners will have questions? May we agreewe would like very much to work with begin with Professor Bates? you in terms of finding out how we can make this thing work. Statement of Timothy Bates, Chair, I think the Community Reinvestment Act Department of Urban Policy Analysis, holds out the promise of being an economic New School for Social Research magna carta, if you will, for the depressed neigh- DR. BATES. Thank you. In picking an aspect of borhoods, with or without discrimination, and I minority-owned business to discuss in the con- want to see that work. I think it is our last hope. text of rising racial tensions, my choicemade If this doesn't work, if we can't improve the qual- several weeks before the recent, unfortunate ity of life in spite of all the racism and the prob- events in Los Angeleswas to focus upon lems we are going to have in the foreseeable fu- Korean-owned small businesses operating in low ture, then it could be the game is over. income, inner-city minority communities. There The ball game is in the financial service in- is a problem of perceptions here that is very dustry's hands right now. You can help make this widespread and is exacerbating racial tensions. system work in spite of the apparent hopeless- Let me quote a Los Angeles Korean merchant to ness that seems to be ruling today. We don't need set off some of the perceptions that are behind new legislation. The banks have already commit- these racial tensions. This Korean merchant was ted. As you pointed out, the merger in this re- quoted in the New York Times on May 3. He said, gion is a commitment between the North Caro- "I think black people are jealous of the Koreans. lina Bank and Sovran of $10 billion. They didn't They are lazy. We are working hard. They are ask for new taxes or anything else. They said if not making money. We are making money." I be- you will let us merge, we will commit $10 billion lieve these perceptions are undoubtedly held by to redeveloping the depressed neighborhoods of others than Koreans in Los Angeles. this country. If we can make those things work, Within the black communitycertainly with- we will get ahead of the Congress and the Presi- in the New York City black community, there is dent and the politicians, and while they are try- great antagonism toward Korean merchants ex- ing to make political mileage, partisan political pressed in the form of community boycotts, but mileage out of this debate, we can get the show also expressed in the form of incorrect percep- up and running. I want to give my personal com- tions. There is a widely held perception that mitment to helping you make it work, and I am many of the Asian immigrant firms are receiving sure that most, if not all, of the members of this subsidized loans from the government. These Commission will do likewise. subsidized loans are very few and far between. MR. LINDSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am There is another widespread perception that sure that we would be delighted to work with Asian immigrant firms don't have to pay taxes. you as well. Perhaps some don't, but they are certainly not CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. Let's go subject to any subset of the tax laws that differ- for lunch. entiates them from other self-employed persons. [Recess.] Another common perception, a true one, is Afternoon Session, May 22, 1992 that Asian immigrant firms rarely employ blacks in inner-city retail operations. Mass media perceptions, and I will generalize a bit here, but one Socioeconomic Factors, Part 2 very common question I hear from reporters CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. The hearing is con- runs like this: "Why can't blacks seize the busi- vened. Would you please join counsel, members of the panel, please? ness opportunities that exist in their own urban communities? Why do Koreans have to travel

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168 halfway around the globe to run the retail out- fessional services that are consistent with their lets in big city, African American communities?" education and skills. Let's define an issue out of all this and analyze it Koreans are the group with the least lan- comprehensively in 5 minutes. Have Asian im- guage proficiency in English. Let me give you a migrant firms, Koreans specifically, created an brief rundown on a survey done of New York economic development model that indigenous City green grocers, all of which are run by minorities should be emulating? A few facts: Korean immigrants. In this example of Korean First, the Asian immigrant group with the high- grocery stores in New York City, of the ownersof est average self-employment earnings in our so- these stores, just under 80 percent of them were ciety is Asian Indians. The average self-employ- college graduates from 4-year institutions. Out ment earnings of Asian Indians are higher than of a sample of 40, 2 had master's degrees, 1 in those of any other ethnic group, minority or non- pharmacology and 1 in engineering. Capital minority. Asian Indians, as a group, are dis- startup problems are frequently mentioned in proportionately recent immigrants. They are the context of getting started in inner-city busi- very highly educated, and their area ofself-em- nesses, yet among these green grocers, two- ployment concentration is not retailing; it is pro- thirds indicated that they had faced no problems fessional services. Asian Indians also, interest- whatsoever in obtaining the startup capital to ingly, have the lowest self-employment rate establish their businesses. Their two major among any of the major Asianimmigrant sources of startup capital were,number one, groups, the other major groups beingChinese, their own savings, and number two, loans from Koreans, and Filipinos. family and friends. Consider this Korean experi- What is the Asian immigrant group with the ence as an economic developmentmodel. Per- lowest self-employment earnings? It is Koreans. haps then, we should suggest to African Ameri- Koreans are, on average, very highly educated can young adults who graduatefrom college that as well. Most possess significantmanagerial/ they should go off and acquire a decade or more professional experience before establishing their of managerial or professional experience in the small businesses. Most arrive in the United corporate and government sectors of America. States with significant financial capital, fre- Then with this education experience, do what, quently derived from selling a home in Korea, open a "Mom and Pop" retail store inthe minor- supplemented from personal savings. The major ity community? Is that an economic development area of concentration among the Koreanself- model? It is absurdity. employed is small scale retailing. They have the Individuals with education and skills that highest rate of self-employment among the Asian parallel the Korean green grocers would not con- immigrant groups and reap the least in terms of sider running a small retail outlet in a minority monetary rewards. If we look at all Korean self- community because it would be a waste of their employed and find the line of self-employment education and skills. Similarly, Koreans are very for Korean immigrants that yields least, it is re- frequently wasting their impressive human retailing, once again. We have a huge concentra- sources in the short run whenthey run these tion here of individuals that are highly talented, smallretailoperationsininner-city ghetto educated, skilled, concentrated, and running areas. In the longer term, as theylearn English, things like "Mom and Pop" grocery stores in they move out of these lines of business and into inner-city, minority communities. Let me sug- salaried employment. If one studies the assimi- gest one very important difference between the lation patterns of Japanese Americans, you will more successful Asian Indians and the less suc- see the same pattern. Or, if theydo remain in cessful Koreans. Asian Indian immigrants are self-employment, they will enter lines other than the single Asian group that is most likely to be retailing that utilize their education and skills, proficient in English when they arrive in the as Asian Indians have done. United States. Hence, their occupational choices For Watts residents in Los Angeles, we can are not constrained by the language barrier,and find groups with college degrees, groups that are they move into lines of self-employment or pro- high wage earners that work in the corporate sector, in the government sector. But, there are

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167 very few because most individuals in Watts are gressive stance in helping to overcome thosere- African Americans who, when they acquire these alities. characteristics that resemble the Korean owners I would like to begin by giving youa brief and move out of the community. Those thatre- overview of my company. Nations Bank is the main disproportionately lacktheeducation, fourth largest banking company in the United skills, and the financial capital, and hence, they States. The area we serve stretches from Balti- cannot compete with the Koreans precisely be- more, south to Miami and west to El Paso, and cause the Koreans are endowed with the charac- represents the Nation's fastest growing region. teristics of successful entrepreneurs. The re- In fact, just 5 years ago, my company wasa mix maining residents in low-income areas of south of 25 separate banks scattered across the South. Los Angeles disproportionately are not. Today, we have nearly 2,000 offices in over 650 The fact that African American residents of communities and more than $110 billion in as- Los Angeles, as a group, respond to opportuni- sets. ties is perfectly consistent with the fact that very We built a powerful banking company froma few highly educated, experienced peoplerun base of community banks through a commitment small retail outlets in south central Los Angeles. to one basic philosophywhat's good for our The converse would reflect a very peculiar, dys- communities is good for our company. My divi- functional adaptation of opportunities. Thus,we sion of NationsBank is called the Community In- have a Korean economic development model that vestment Group. What we do necessarily goes is rooted in blocked opportunities, in particular, far beyond the stipulations of the Community the inability to speak English, which keeps Reinvestment Act of 1977. NationsBank has groups, in the extreme, such as pharmacists made a commitment to my unit as one of busi- from passing the State licensing exams that they ness development rather than of compliance. We need to pursue their chosen professions. Thisre- target our program toward minority consumers, sults in an underutilization of skills. It reflects low and moderate income consumers, small busi- an absence of alternatives in white-collar em- nesses, and other historically underserved areas ployment, and it is a development model that of our communities. As the company's principal should not be emulated. I might add that the community investment executive, I am responsi- media such as the New York Times should stop ble for cultivating business opportunities in all beating the inner-city minority communityover segments of the communities we serve. We be- the head with bootstrap notions about abundant lieve and have evidence that these business op- business opportunities in the small scale retail portunities exist. We simply do not run our com- sector because the Korean experience does not pany merely by doing what is required of us by support this media myth. Thank you. law. Instead, we attempt to do what is right by CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you. our communities. MS. BOOKER. Ms. Bessant. Mr. Chairman, because of the attentiongener- ated last fall when banks, including our twopre- Statement of Catherine Bessant, Senior Vice decessors, C&S/Sovran and NCNB, released President for Community Reinvestment, their home mortgage disclosure data for 1990, Nations Bank Corporation we understand why you are interested in hear- MS. BESSANT. Mr. Chairman and members of ing from a banking institution today. Beginning the Commission, I am Cathy Bessant,commu- with last year's data, for the first time there is nity investment executive for Nations Bank Cor- now a form of measurement in our industry, poration. I appreciate the invitation to testify be- which provides evidence that banks are falling fore you today on the relationship that exists short of meeting the needs of important seg- between socioeconomic factors and ethnic and ments of their markets. The HMDA results re- racial tension. I believe you have askedme here flected a number of factors which impact lending today because, as a banker, I can attest to the decisions. The primary reasons for turning down brutal economic realities minority Americans credit applications were identified as credit and face, and because my company has takenan ag- employment history, value and condition of collateral, and debt-to-income ratios. In light of this

162 163 information, my focus today is on the future of of our regulators. Obviously, these conflicting Nations Bank and the vital role we expect to play messages encourage us to take fewer chances on as the leading provider of capital in our region. potential borrowers. While the first HMDA results were frustrat- Credibility is a third challenge we deal with ing for us, they document legitimate issues and every day. People in low income neighborhoods, confirm that there is considerable work to be and perhaps deservedly so, simply don't believe done. We do believe that the perception of bank- we want their business, despite all the products ing practices in this country is one of the compo- we have developed, despite all the initiatives nents of an atmosphere that contributes to racial we've taken to get to know these areas of our tension. I emphasize the word "perception" be- communities better. We fight each day the per- cause we firmly believe that the perception of ception of our low income and minority custom- banking practices does not accurately reflect the ers that a bank, particularly a big bank, isn't reality of these practices. Let me explain. interested in meeting their credit needs. This in- A lot of people have concluded that wide- timidation keeps potential customers from com- spreadracialbias permeates this country's ing into one of our offices and applying for a banking system. On the surface, the HMDA re- loan. To overcome these challenges, we've under- sults would tend to support that perception. taken a number of proactive and result-oriented However, the evidence indicates that the issues initiatives to show just how serious community whichlimitcreditavailabilityamong our investment is to us. Last summer we announced nation's minority population are socioeconomic an unprecedented $10 billion commitment to rather than racial in origin. Further, we at community development lending to inject loan NationsBank feel it is our duty to overcome and capital into the underserved sectors of the com- help eliminate those socioeconomic factors and munities in which we operate. This commitment make capital readily available for all segments and its attendant programs serve as the um- of our markets. But, as we attempt to live up to brella for our community investment efforts. that responsibility, we face some difficult chal- At the time, that commitment was twice the lenges. One major hurdle that we believe limits size of any community investment pledge ever prosperity and growth among our nation's mi- made in banking history. We are putting our nority population and, unfortunately, limits the money where our heart is in this initiative. ability of banks to use lending to help solve the Credit commitments will fuel the growth of our problem is the demographic reality prevalent in communities through this pledge in the form of our region. affordable housing loans, including single and For example, we have found that unaccept- multifamilylending,smallbusinessloans, able credit history stymies potential African public-private partnerships, and other forms of American borrowers twice as much as potential community development lending. We would like white borrowers. Further, we have found that nothing more than to surpass the $10 billion net worth and disposable income levels vary tre- goal we have set. In fact, results today show that mendously by race within similar income catego- we are well on our way to surpassing $1 billion ries. Another challenge we face is a conflicting in community development lending in1992. mandate from our regulators. In short, what we Other than its sheer size, the real strength of are facing amounts to a regulatory double stan- this commitment is in its design. Community dard. As you know, banking is a highly regulated development lending decisions will be locally industry. In addition to facing the challenges all driven in response to local needs and local cus- corporations face, regulators hold us to strict tomers. In addition, we have pledged to publicly credit policy standards, which require us to report our performance on a community-by- make only the strongest loans. On the other community basis annually. hand, we are charged to beand I might add, There are three important elements in the want to beinnovative and flexible in our lend- delivery of this program: innovative product de- ing efforts under the CRA. However, the loans velopment, target marketing, and borrower edu- we make and need to make in order to meet cation and counseling. Within this strategy, community needs often don't meet the standards we have developed a comprehensive array of

163 169 products and services we feel are making a dif- which will educate our entire lender and branch ference. These products include specially de- associate base about our entire community in- signed home mortgage, home improvement, vestment program, as well, we hope, to sensitize small business lending, and other programs with them to further markets we are trying to serve. one central theme, flexibility. Examples include Our position is fairly straightforward. Lend- our two community investment mortgage prod- ing disparities exist. They contribute to racial ucts which are detailed in the written testimony tension. While they may or may not be rooted I have submitted and our child care development in the challenges I have outlined, we at Nations- loan fund. Bank believe it is unacceptable to ignore these So far this year, we have made more than disparities or to consider them someone else's $45 million in loans to low income Americans problem. We have led and will continue to lead through our mortgage products and over $3 mil- our industry in the pursuit of change. The inno- lion in loans to fuel critically needed child care vations we undertake have and will produce re- capacity directly benefiting small businesses as sults. While we are proud of the programs we well as low income and minority children. We currently have in place, we know that our work don't plan to wait for minority applicants to has truly just begun. Mr. Chairman, at Nations- come to us. To encourage more applications, we Bank we have a deeply held dedication to both expect to spend more than $2 million this year in the concept and the reality of investing in all the advertising and outreach to market our commu- communities we serve. Simply put, our prosper- nity investment products. When we made our ity is tied directly to everyone's prosperity. We $10 billion commitment, making capital avail- absolutely can't survive if our communities don't able was just one of our challenges. To that end, grow and prosper, and we fully understand that. we believe borrower education is the single This concludes my testimony. Once again, thank greatest tool for overcoming socioeconomic bar- you for inviting me. I'll be glad to answer any riers to credit. questions. As part of our overall program to educate our CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you for com- low income customers, we teamed up late last ing. year with the NAACP and pledged more than MS. BOOKER. Mr. Fishbein. $1 million to open five community development resource centers across the South. This partner- Statement of Allen Fishbein, General Counsel, ship is unprecedented. Five pilot resource cen- Center for Community Change ters, to be located in Atlanta, Austin, Charlotte, MR. FISHBEIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Columbia, and Richmond, will provide credit members of the Commission. I appreciate the op- counseling, technical assistance, outreach, and portunity to be able to testify here today. My policy consulting. Based on its success, weex- name is Allen Fishbein, and I am general coun- pect to extend this program to its fullest extent sel for the Center for Community Change, which possible. We are also undertaking initiatives in- is a national nonprofit organization based here side the company as well. One way to overcome in Washington, D.C., that provides research and the many challenges we face is to maintain a technical assistance to community-based organi- diverse employee base. On average, minorities zationsinprimarilyminoritycommunities comprise 22 percent of these markets. At throughout the United States. The focus of our Nations Bank we are working hard to meet and work is on community development, and my own surpass that level of diversity. We actively re- particular area of expertise is in the area of cruit and support minority associates withinour community reinvestment and fair lending en- company. We have been particularly successful forcement. in attracting minority candidates into ourman- The L.A. riots were a brutal reminder that for agement training programs. At this point in the many people, civil rights and economic rights current recruiting year, our management train- have failed to come together. Even worse, they ing program is comprised of 21 percent minority dramatically demonstrate the socialcosts of candidates. In addition, by June 30, we will have writingoff neighborhoods and people who completeda corporatewidetrainingproject believe they do not have a stake in the fabric of

164 170 society. Many African Americans felt especially tions from all minorities comprised only 305,000 victimized by the King verdict. For them, the loan applications or approximately 15 percent of verdict was the latest manifestation that being all the conventional loan applications made in black in our society often means living under a 1990, compared to the 23 percent of the general different set of rules from whites. But there are population they represent. The data used by this other examples and perhaps more insidious ex- study, perhaps, and I would agree, does not amples. One of them is in the area of community prove conclusively that rejection rate disparities disinvestment and lending discrimination, which result from discrimination. Yet, the statistical is still prevalent in our society. disparities are so striking and so consistent with Access to credit is the lifeblood of neighbor- a generation of earlier research that itraised the hoods and the ability of Americans of modest quite reasonable question about whether dis- means to improve their economic status.With- crimination is occurring in the mortgage loan out mortgages and home improvement loans, approval process. The disparities are alarming, housing deteriorates, and hardworking Ameri- of course, whether or not they are caused by cans aren't able to purchase their own homes. illegal discrimination, or the lack of marketing, Without loans for small businesses and economic or the lack of effective credit products, or even development, wealth and jobs leave neighbor- resulting from legitimate factors that lead to the hoods. It has been nearly 25 years since the en- turndown. actment of the Fair Housing Act, making all CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All of the above. aspects of housing discrimination illegal. Unfor- MR. FISHBEIN. Or all of the above, right. They tunately, strong evidence continues to suggest suggest a need for a more aggressive role for that racial factors influence the flow of credit in government to insure that fair opportunities our nation's cities. for home ownership exist. Unfortunately, the po- For the past decade, studies have found that licing of the Nation's fair lending laws is far banks and savings institutions are far less active from adequate. After two rounds of oversight lenders in minority neighborhoods than they are hearings on the subject, Senator Alan Dixon, in white areas. Last October, using data pro- who chairs the Senate Consumer and Regula- vided under the expanded Home Mortgage Dis- tory Affairs Subcommittee of the Senate Bank- closure Act, the Federal Reserve Board released ing Committee, summarized the state of the fair results of its own analysis showing that minori- lending enforcement this way, "The problem is ties are rejected for mortgage loans more than not lack of laws. It is lackluster enforcement." twice as often as their white counterparts. Even Similarly, there appears to be a significant gap more disturbingly, the study foundthat even in the availability of credit for small businesses, poor white applicants are more likely tobe especially for those located in poorer, minority granted a mortgage loan than wealthy black ap- neighborhoods. Without access to capital, there plicants. Most of the attention of this Fed study can be little opportunity for those whowould be- has focused on the disparities and loan rejection come stakeholders in their owncommunity. Yet, rates between minorities and whites. However, low income minorities have the same need to the study also found a dramatic drop-off in appli- purchase food, drycleaning services, and phar- cations received from minorities and from resi- macies where they live as do residents of subur- dents of minority neighborhoods, compared to ban communities. Locally owned businesses are their white counterparts. The Fed reported that essential to enable consumer dollars to be re- of the nearly 2 million conventional loan applica- cycled back into the community, as happens in tions received in 1990 by banks and savings in- middle income communities. The all too painful stitutions in urban areas, only 90,000 or 4.5 per- reality, however, is that pitifully few such locally cent of these loan applications were from African owned businesses exist in neighborhoods like Americans, although blacks represent 12.3 per- south central Los Angeles. Tragically, the frus- cent of the general population in urban areas. tration about the lack of locally owned enter- Similarly, the data showed that racial minori- prises seems to be taken out on shopkeepers who ties, as a group, are underrepresented even do not live in the community. The owners of among applicants for mortgage credit. Applica- these businesses in places like south central L.A.

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171 tend to be Asian immigrants. Like generations of ber study at hand, rejected a recommendation ethnic proprietors before them, they live else- from their own Consumer Advisory Council to do where, they send their children to school else- a demonstration testing program. We think it is where, they employ nonresidents, and they take unlikely the regulators will engage in this kind money out of the community. At the same time, of activity without explicit direction from the recent studies suggest that, although some sec- Congress. Thirdly, all mortgage banking compa- tors of the small business community have suffi- nies should be supervised by HUD on a regular cient access to credit, financing problems exist in basis for fair lending enforcement purposes. submarkets, such as start-up businesses and mi- That is something that does not exist at thecur- nority-owned businesses. rent time. Lastly, all mortgage lenders should be Commercial banks continue to remain the sin- required to publish their written underwriting gle most important external suppliers of financ- and mortgage loan criteria so that a potential ing for small businesses. It is particularly true consumer would have access to them and com- for minorities, who tend to have less personal pare their own experience against the stated pol- wealth and less family wealth at their disposal icies. to start new businesses. These institutions are Now, in the second area, the small business especially critical to blacks wishing to start their lending area, which admittedly is more complex, businesses, and yet the loans are not there. The number one, we recommend that large banking Federal Community Reinvestment Act wascre- institutions be required to publicly disclose, ated to encourage banking institutions to meet on a geographic basis, where they make their the credit needs of local communities in which small business loans. That is information that they are chartered. Although CRA was originally currently does not exist. Secondly, that there intended to serve as an antiredlining tool to ad- be Federal support for the establishment of dress problems associated with mortgage and community-based and minority-owned financial housing credit access, banks can also meet CRA institutions to serve the needs of minority com- requirements through small business lendingmunities. Thirdly, there is a need for Federal and commercial lending. However, the Federal support for special incentives, which I would be regulators need to give much greater emphasis glad to go into some more detail about later, to to small business lending areas in weighing the encourage banks to lend to minority-owned busi- community reinvestment records of the financial nesses in specified communities. This concludes institutions they supervise. my testimony, and I, too, will be glad to answer I just want to close with a couple of quick any questions you have. recommendations for action we believe isneces- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very sary at the Federal level. We made some of these much. same recommendations to a subcommittee of the Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Tidwell. House Banking Committee just several weeks ago. Number one, we believe that the fair lend- Statement of Billy Tidwell, Director of ing laws need to be enforced and that enforce- Research, National Urban League ment needs to be strengthened. We suggest that MR. TIDWELL. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman an independent regulator be given the primary and distinguished members of the Commission. I responsibility for enforcement because the exist- am Billy Tidwell, director of research for the Na- ing banking supervisory agencies have consis- tional Urban League. On behalf of the league tently shown a disinclination to effectivelyen- and its president, John E. Jacob, I first would force the law. Secondly, authorize funding for the like to express my gratitude for the opportunity establishment of a fair lending' auditprogram to to testify before you on a matter of supreme im- use testing, which has been quite effectively portance to us all. Also, I am pleased to add my used in the sales and rentals of housing but has own commendation to the Commission for un- not been used in any systematic way for lending dertaking these hearings and the larger racial discrimination, as an effective enforcement de- tensions project. vice. The Federal Reserve Board last September, Further and most important, I must acknowl- when they already had the results of their Octo- edge a sense of reassurance in the Commission's

166 172 affirmation that the problem before you is a na- there be more public understanding and appreci- tional problem that requires a national agenda ation of the cost of racism. For under present for remedial action. As you know, the National conditions, the problem of racism goes well be- Urban League, since its inception, has been in yond the moral imperative to do the right thing. the vanguard to improve race relations, driven It has become an urgent matter of national secu- by our overriding mission to promote equal op- rity. Consequently, we must decide, as a Nation, portunity for African Americans and other disad- whether we can continue to pay the price. We vantaged groups. In this connection, we have must decide, as a Nation, whether it is time, been deeply distressed by telling signs of regress finally, to balance the ledger of racial justice." and retrenchment that have emerged in recent Frankly, Mr. Chairman, when I wrote this re- years. As fate would have it, your present in- port, I did not imagine that less than 2 years quiry could not have been initiated at a more later, I would be faced with the prospect of doing propitious time. I am referring, of course, to the a sequel with an even more disturbing scenario. horrifying events in Los Angeles and elsewhere I did not imagine that, a generation removed following the verdict in the Rodney King case. from the cataclysms that occurred in my own These events have thrust the issue of racial and hometown, Watts, in Detroit, even the Nation's ethnic relations squarely to the forefront of con- capital, that we would find ourselves over- temporary public policy debate. In this regard, whelmed by an even more potent outburst of Mr. Chairman, I want to make two explicit urban violence than occurred in any of these ear- points. lier episodes. I did not imagine that I might be First, the Rodney King case and its aftermath at this moment agonizing over the very real pos- are products of a complex of forces and condi- sibility that the cumulative cost of racism has tions that did not originate overnight. All of the plunged our democratic system headlong into elements were there, preexisting and longstand- bankruptcy. ing, to fuel the explosion. They are still there in Thus, my second point, Mr. Chairman, rein- south central Los Angeles, and numerous other forced by the current crisis, is that few problems places, simply awaiting another spark. The fol- are a greater menace to our national security, to lowing quotation is apropos of the situation we the general welfare, and the common good than face. "In some sense, we might consider our- the growing specter of racial and ethnic conflict selves fortunate for having survived the urban across the land. The abject treatment of African rioting that so threatened this society and its Americans and other disadvantaged racial and institutions, but we paid a heavy price. No re- ethnic minorities remains at the center of the search methodology exists which is able to esti- predicament. Mr. Chairman, it is my firm con- mate fully just how great the price was. One viction that this Commission, in its wisdom, in- does not need precise statisticaltechniques, formed by observations made during the racial however, to know that we cannot afford it again. tensions investigation, and by the substantial The world has changed tremendously since the body of related information previously at its dis- last fire was extinguished in Charcoal Alley, and posal, must step forward more assertively than so have our needs as a Nation in the modern era. it has ever before. You must champion the propo- There is no more crucial priority than to eradi- sition that concluding the unfinished business of cate the conditions of institutionalized racial in- racial justice is vital to the national interest. You justice that continue to disadvantage the African must vigorously promulgate the view that the American population." Those words are from a persistence of group-based disadvantage is a report released by the National Urban League in perilous circumstance. You must enlighten white 1990, entitled, The Price: A Study of the Cost of America to understand that social stability is Racism in America. not a condition we can take for granted, as it One chapter of the report, addressing what I must be pursued and preserved through public call "sociopolitical costs," analyzes the 1960s policies that are recognized as equitable and riots. In the same place, there is this statement: just. "As the 21st century approaches bringing new I will be submitting for your consideration a demands and challenges, it is essential that separate statement that examines in detail the

167 173 socioeconomic factors that have contributed to has been compounded by precipitous reductions the recent resurgence of racial and ethnic ten- in Federal assistance to States and localities. In sions. Also, I have made available to the Com- the meantime, Mr. Chairman, the racial and eth- mission copies of the above-referenced report nic composition of the Nation has changed irre- and a few other Urban League documents that versibly, spurred by immigration and the differ- are germane to this issue. I will use my remain- ential natural growth rates between the white ing time to highlight a few key points. majority and racial and ethnic minorities. Ac- Many of the domestic problems gripping us cording to the Bureau of the Census, the African today, including the rising incidence of inter- American population in the U.S. grew by 13 per- group conflict, have been occasioned or aggra- cent between 1980 and 1990. In the same period, vated by the interplay between some farreaching the Hispanic population jumped by 53 percent, economic and demographic changes. These de- while the number of Asians and Pacific Islanders velopments have yet to run their course, and we skyrocketed by 108 percent. The growth rate for all are challenged to manage them more wisely white Americans was a mere 6 percent. and productively than has been the case to date. While we might favor the increased diversity The economic changes are spearheaded by a in principle, the reality is that our struggling sharp decline in the Nation's productivity and economy is not conducive to understanding and competitiveness, within the context of an in- acceptance. The reality is that we have an eco- creasingly competitive global marketplace. The nomic environment that fosters intergroup ten- average American has been keenly affected by sions and conflicts between whites and minori- these circumstances. Family incomes have stag- ties and increasingly, among minority groups nated. Real wage growth of the typical American themselves. Examples abound, but I would draw worker has slowed. Standards of living have spi- particular attention to the escalation of racially ralled downward. At the same time, we have ob- motivated attacks involving African Americans served a widening disparity between the "haves" and whites, and a surge of antagonism between and the "have-nots" as income inequality in this African Americans and Koreans. All are disqui- country has reached record levels. All of this be- eting commentaries on the deterioration of the speaks fundamental weaknesses in the U.S. world's preeminent pluralist democracy. economy, and our failure to make the invest- Again, the democratic revolution and its ad- ments necessary for sustained economic growth verse consequences are playing out most dra- and prosperity. In particular, our economic woes matically in urban areas, where new immigrants represent part of the price of having neglected compete with established minority populations the needs of disadvantaged populations andfor limited economic opportunity, and where communities. Even the current economic reces- white America has perfected the practice of ne- sion, so pervasive and protracted in the hard- glect. South central Los Angeles exemplified this ships it has caused, must be understood as a combustible interaction between economics and manifestation of past failures and present inade- demographics. On the economic side, the profile quacies in securing the Nation's economic well- is all too familiar: low income levels, high unem- being. These observations are elaborated upon in ployment rates, widespread poverty, a high inci- the National Urban League's report, Playing to dence of dependency on public assistance, and so Win, a Marshall Plan for America, which is in- forth. Of course, in Los Angeles as elsewhere, cluded in the packet compiled for this hearing. there are deep disparities in economic well-being The adversities to which I have alluded are by race and ethnicity. especially pronounced in the Nation's urban cen- The statistics to note are lack of economic op- ters, as many of these places have been devas- portunity and the persistence of racism and dis- tated by the loss of business and industry, as crimination in our social and economic life. De- well as the exodus of middle and working-class mographically,thetransformationinsouth taxpayers. They are left with a broadening con- central Los Angeles in the past decade has been stellation of social and economic problems, esca- remarkable. For example,in1980, African lating human needs and difficult, if not impossi- Americans accounted for 75 percent of the resi- ble, budgetary choices. Moreover, the situation dents of Watts, while Hispanics were 14 percent.

168 174 By 1990, these proportions had changed to 58 plan would recognizethe compelling inter- percent African American and 43 percent Hispa- dependency between our needs as a nation and nic. (Persons of Hispanic origin may be of any the needs of those who have been relegated to race.) Thus, although African Americans are still the margins of the economic mainstream. The a majority of the population in south centralLos National Urban League's proposed Marshall Angeles, the Hispanic presence has seen a pro- Plan for America speaks to the essential require- lific expansion. It is worth noting, also, that the ments. Since information about the proposal is number of Asians and Pacific Islanders in the being distributed to the Commission, I won't ex- broader Los Angeles area is now nearly 1.4 mil- pound upon it here. Suffice it to say that the lion, as their growth rate has surpassed by far proposal is timely, forward looking and well- that of any other racial or ethnic group. Mr. grounded in the American tradition of coopera- Chairman, I will simply repeat that under these tive enterprise. conditions, in an environment characterized by I close this testimony by quoting from John economic disadvantage and record population Jacob's overview article in the League's latest shifts, there is high potential for conflict and vio- State of Black America Report. "The state of lence. The National Urban League has recently black America in 1992 mirrors the state of the completed an indepth field study of the interra- Nation as a whole in many ways, a Nation cial violence phenomenon, and I will share the caught in a tangle of recession and racial disad- principal finding with the Commission in my de- vantage, but poised for a real breakthrough if tailed statement. However, I will say here, that America's leadership rejects racial divisiveness, the evidence confirms the risk we face. and adopts policies that can revive our economy So how do we reduce the risk of further social and create opportunities for all." Mr. Chairman, and economic, degeneration? What types of pub- in light of the events during the past 3 weeks, it lic initiatives are required to boost progress to- is my fervent hope that we will get on with the ward our shared ideals? No one has all the an- serious business at hand--promoting opportu- swers. Certainly, I will not sit here and presume nity, achieving racial justice, and tapping the to offer the solution. The problem is immensely positive potential in our growing racial and eth- complex, and the forces that feed into it are for- nic diversity. The time really is now. Thank you midable. Nonetheless, I suggest to you with ut- for your attention, and of course, I would be ter confidence that one salient prerequisite for happy to answer any questions. progress is a concerted program of economic re- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank you very vitalization. Somehow, we must reinvigorate the much. Let me say to this panel that I particu- national economy with particular attention to larly waited for your presentation. I am going to conditions in our urban centers. Somehow, we have to leave shortly to go to the Hill to talk to must eliminate the longstanding economic disad- Senator Riegle, the Chairman of the Subcommit- vantages experienced by African Americans and tee on Banking, Finance and Urban Affairs. I other deprived minorities. Somehow, we must of- particularly wanted to hear this panel before fer hope to the needy within a broader strategy going to the Hill with my colleague, Mr. Russell of brightening the economic future for us all. Redenbaugh, because we are going to talk about Of course, the National Urban League sup- the Community Reinvestment Act. My testimony ports the bipartisan effort by the President and before that committee last week dealt with the the Democratic and Republican leadership in Community Reinvestment Act, and Ms. Bessant, Congress to pass the package of urban aid initia- you should know that I mentioned yourbank, in tives that will provide immediate relief to riot- particular, as well as the Bank of America and torn Los Angeles and funding for several com- the merger that they just put together. munity development programs. At the same You should further know that I was with a time, however, we are thoroughly convinced that group of blacks and one Hispanicthat met a more comprehensive, long-term approach is with the President the day after the riots got necessary to move the entire Nation forward, an underway. While several of the other individuals approach that addresses root causes as well as talkedabout differentsocialprograms, my symptoms of our economic problems. Such a remarks were held strictly to the Community

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175 Reinvestment Act. I told the President that I selves eligible to be elected to public office. If you would urge him to call the Chairman of the Fed- take a look at the record, the number of blacks eral Reserve Board, Mr. Greenspan, and as who were in office when this agency came into many of the Governors that he could get to come existence in 1957, when this agency was created, to talk about the potential of the Community was four. Reinvestment Act as a remedy, or as the instru- Today we have 25, and the projection is that ment that may hold the remedy of serious eco- there will be 35 before this decade is over. Ifyou nomic development in depressed neighborhoods look at the number of black superintendents in throughout the country, whether it is a Hispanic schools at the time this agency that I run was depressed neighborhood, black depressed neigh- created, it was none. Today it is close to 200 borhood, or what-have-you. some. I can run the record down. Also Hispanics When the Staff Director and others told me have made tremendous gains as well. They, too, that you had committed to coming and that you, were not really considered citizens of the country sir, Mr. Fishbein as well as Mr. Bates, I thought until the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I challenge any- I will wait and hear what they have to say one who thinks that blacks are lazy, that blacks because, in my testimony, I had suggested to the are shiftless, that Hispanics are lazy, that His- Chairman of that committee that I would be panics are shiftless, I challenge anyone to show back with specific recommendations as to the me anywhere on the face of the earth the gains kind of legislation, amendments to existing leg- that minorities, Hispanics and blacks, have islation, that would make that act the instru- made in a mere 30 years. I challenge anybody to ment of hope, reasonable hopeit is a banking show me anywhere on the face of the earth that termreasonable hope that it ought to be. that has happened that fast. It is a tragedy, I am interested in your specific recommenda- again, that the Korean gentleman didn't know tions, because that is what Russell Redenbaugh that. and I are going to be making in a very few min- If, for example, that same gentleman were to utes when we go to the Hill. They have agreed to go out to Columbia, Maryland, and go into busi- meet with us privately to talk about the Commu- ness in the Running Brook neighborhood, what nity Reinvestment Act and what ought togo into he would find there is anything but shiftless, it to make it work. I am going to ask you some worthless blacks. What he would find is two- specifics in a few moments, but I want to make income families earning $75,000 to $100,000 a another observation. I, too, saw the Korean gen- year, just as ambitious, just as hopeful for their tleman on television making the statement that children, and just as committed to making a con- black Americans are lazy and that they are shift- tribution to this country as anyone. The tragedy less and that they are worthless and less than is they went into neighborhoods that were down- ambitious, etc. I said to myself, "What a tragedy. trodden with people who were poorly educated, What a social tragedy to begin with in that he and they want to use that as a profile for black was so unknowing of black history in this coun- America. It is sad because that is not a true try." profile, and one of the things I am trying to get If he had known all the facts, he would realize them to understand when I go back out to Cali- that black Americans didn't take the chains off fornia is that they need to understand that there until 1864, 1865, and that is all that came off, are other blacks, who have fought like cats and just the chains. We were not welcomed into this dogs to get to the top, whatever the top has been society until 1964, and we weren't welcomed for them. even then. We passed the 1964 Civil Rights Act Let me make one more statement here be- that said we are not only members of the human cause I think we have to get this straight. The race, finally, but members of this society. For the suggestion that black Americans and other mi- Korean gentleman's information, he ought to norities would rather have a job than a business know that technically speaking, we have only of their own because of their education is a been citizens 37 years. Let me say that again. rumor. The real tragedy is that our education Technically speaking, we had to get voting rights system taught everybody in this country to go on the books before we could really consider our- to work for somebody, blacks included. White

170 176 people don't know how to go into business. Let The idea that this family thing is kind of unique me say that again. White people don't know how and only to them in particular is not quite true. to go into business. Youngsters that graduated The banks, if you take a good look when you from school with me 50 years ago were not start making some of the loans out of your Com- taught to go into business. We were taught to get munity Reinvestment funds, you will be sur- ready to serve government and to go to work for prised at the extent to which businesses have some major corporation, not run it, just serve it. been handed down from one generation to an- Right now, at the business school where I am other in the black and Hispanic communities. teaching at the University of Denver, we are just We know a little bit about that also, and I hope now beginning to teach white youngsters how to it will help you when you start implementing get a business degree and go into business for your programs. I am going to the Hill in a few themselves. Most of them want to go to work for minutes, and I am interested ,in incentives. You somebody else. America, in spite of the rumor had said in your testimony, Ms. Bessant, somethat we are a great entrepreneurial country, the thing about incentives and something about just hard, cold fact is that it ain't true. We are just obeying the law as opposed to recognizing that not learning how to educate people to go into there is a market out there and money to be business, as opposed to working for somebody. made. Would you expound on that a little bit, for So the idea is that when the Asians come in me, please? from the different parts of the Pacific Rim coun- MS. BESSANT. Sure. First of all, the demo- tries, most of the time the business they run is graphics of our market, themselves, tell us that their welfare system. They take care of the there is money to be made. Sixty percent of the whole family out of it. I admire them for that. I households in the markets where we do business don't know too many American entrepreneurs have incomes of less than $25,000 a year, so to who want to take care of their whole family out us, we have got to have innovative productsand of their business. Most folks that run it want to programs. Otherwise, we will miss 60 percent of take care of the immediate family, not the cous- the business opportunity that is in each of our ins, not the uncles, not the grandparents, nobody markets. Now, whether or not the existing legis- else, just the immediate family. It is a cultural lation has incentives in it is the reason that I learning for all of us that a small business can said that we necessarily have to go beyond it be the welfare system for the extended family, because it clearly doesn't. The problem that we that it can provide them all the jobs, the oppor- see with the existing legislation is that it focuses tunity to go to school, the whole thing. When we on process, rather than on results. Inother get that learned, we may become an entrepre- words, the regulators, when they come into our neur nation, but we are not now. We talk a good organization, spend as much, if not more, time entrepreneur game, but we are not very good at looking at, like someone else said, how much it. Most of white America is learning it right paperwork there is, how much direction our along with us. They don't know how to use the board of directors gives to us, how much or how Small Business Administration either. So when well we understand community needs, in con- we do this research, let's take a good look atall trast to having a good solid look at what the of it. results are. I believe that the reason for that is I will make one more point. There is the that there aren't objective standards for mea- rumor that the black businesses don't believe in surement in the legislation as it exists today. In employing the whole family. But if you take a other words, our regulators do what they do be- good look at black mortuaries, for example, in cause they have no choice. They have no means this country, you will find that they have been in by which to give us an A, B, C or D because the burying business for years, from one genera- there aren't objective standards of measurement tion to another. If you look at the barber busi- in the law. I am speaking for NationsBank, of ness, if you look at the hairdressing business, if course, today, not for banking institutions as a you look at any of those personal services busi- whole, but our bank advocates very strongly ob- nesses, you will find they have been handed jective standards of measurement in the law. down from one generation to another for years.

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177 The second recommendation that we would That record, which the Federal Reserve Board make is some relaxed safety and soundness reported on, was generated off the portfolios that guidelines. I think one of the points that I made the banks had available at that time, and these in my testimony is that many times we want and were not sour loans from poor black people. need to make loans that our regulators then help Now if you continue to believe that, and the us. to classify as not good loans, not because they way you characterize the problem, and I don't are not good loans, but because they look differ- mean you, personally, but the people in the ent than the traditional, standard, easy-to-do, banking industry, as "We would do more, but we strong, profitable loan. We have found, in fact, have got all these problems because they are just that our community development lending portfo- poor credit risks and so on," and you don't under- lios perform as well, if not better, than our gen- stand that you were not serving a particular ra- eral market portfolios. The problem we have is cial group, however you characterize it, socio- on the classification side because they look dif- economically or demographically, it means that ferent than the standard form of lending. you won't do any better. The reality of what COMMISSIONER BERRY. Mr. Chairman. Since loans went sour, what the constraints were, you said you were going to go to the Hill on this, what was in the portfolio, mitigates against any I would like to ask her two questions about it argument that there was no variable concerning before you go. race in the data that was demonstrated. I would CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. like your comment on that because I think we COMMISSIONER BERRY. In your testimony, Ms. need to work on that if we want this act to work. Bessant, you emphasized that socioeconomic fac- MS. BESSANT. I think we have been very clear tors are the reason for this data which appears in acknowledging that the data showed dispari- to be race discrimination. I am just worried that ties in lending by race, and again, I am speaking the Community Reinvestment Act is not going to for NationsBank, but we have really, from the do what we want it to do if you and others who start of the time that we have commented on run these operations do not understand what the these numbers, talked about the legitimate is- data seem to show. You then pointed out prob- sues that they raise. Now we have done exten- lems with unacceptable credit and problems sive analysis of the data, and what our analysis with the regulators saying that they don't look shows is that the correlation that appears to like good loans and so on. We are all aware ofexist on the surface between the 2:1 decline rate the high rates of banks closing, primarily be- and the conclusion of racial discrimination is not cause of bad loans that were made in their port- borne out by the evidence. When you get in and folios in the last few years, and I am surprised analyze the data, credit history is the reason for that Mr. Fishbein didn't mention this. credit decline in over 49 percent of our loans. In none of those cases that I am aware of was When you break credit history down by race, it because they gave too many loans to poor twice as often, a black applicant is likely to have black people who were poor credit risks and who, a poor credit history as compared to a white ap- therefore, didn't pay their bills, and that this plicant. When you hear me talk about education caused the banks to have to close. We are all programs and creative ways of looking at in- aware of it. The numbers are available as to how come, and you will see that in some of the testi- many have been consolidated. I think your bank mony that I have left with you, that is all de- has absorbed some of them. In fact, the records signed to overcome that socioeconomic barrier show that a lot of those, and we have had banks that does relate to race, but does not relate to a right here in Washington that closed, like the biased lending decision. National Bank of Washington and so on, which COMMISSIONER BERRY. I am not making my- indeed, had huge portfolios of bad loans. They self clear. To sharpen my point, when you look at were not poor black people who were credit risks the loans you did makenot the loans you didn't and who, therefore, were unacceptable and this makemany of which went sour, what were the is why the loans went sour. So that the record credit ratings of those folks compared to the ones that this data shows of blacks not getting loans, you denied that were, in fact, poor, black folks or there is no relationship between the two at all. black folks who didn't have good credit rating.

172 178 Some of those people must have had either higher fees. And they just kept on charging them credit rating problems or some kind of history or that. They didn't care whether they had better something. The evidence is that their loans went records or not, which makes me wonder whether sour in huge numbers, which has caused a tre- in the banking industry, contrary to the notion mendous crisis in the banking industry and is that black borrowers somehow have less credit one reason why the regulators have been so worthiness or something, this data about poor harsh in response to public comment about what whites getting loans even more often than blacks happened. might make us a little bit suspicious. MS. BESSANT. I was about to address that I am only pointing this out, Mr. Chairman, point. Make no mistake about it. We are not say- because if we expect the Community Reinvest- ing that the regulators are asking us to make ment Act to do the kinds of things that we would bad loans. On the other hand, the Chairman hope it would do, if the banking industry is oper- asked me to address what I thought might be ating under some assumptions which don't make disincentives in the system, and what I can tell any sense, and it will not analyze the data in a you is that to make that $45 million in mortgage way that informs them that they may be doing loans this year, we have had to go far beyond something onthe basisof race that they what our regulators classify as truly safe and shouldn't be doing, then the problem seems to sound loans. I was in a meeting yesterday and me to be worse than we think it is, and it may listened to the Fannie Mae guidelines for what require some different remedies. That is the only loans they will purchase. They won't go over an reason why I intervened to ask it at this point, 80 percent loan-to-value in making those loans. and I wanted to do it before you left. To get to $45 million, we had to go to 95 and 98 CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. That's fine, Com- percent loan-to-value to make the loans. Our missioner, and I think it is worse than we think mortgage products, and I would be happy to it is. That is one of the reasons I am going to talk leave you with more information, are such that to the Chairman. I might also add that, because we can't find a buyer in the secondary market of Freddie Mac's and Fannie Mae's mortgage for those loans because, in order to meet the purchasing factors in purchase of only certain need, which is what we are all about, we go far portfolios, we want to call them together and beyond what either our regulators or the second- have them testify about the rationale for the way ary market would label as traditional. they go about it. They do get Federal guaran- Don't get me wrong. We don't do that because tees. They are using tax dollars from minorities we think we are making a bad loan. On the and women and othersthey are using our tax other hand, we think we are using credit criteria dollars to guarantee their purchasing policies that are much more reflective of the special mar- that exclude us. So we intend to hear from them, kets that we are trying to reach. We think we too, and I would like to hear more about that are doing the right thing, and we know from our particular problem, because, I want an explana- experience that it is good business. What I was tion as to how they go about using our tax dol- addressing were the disincentives that exist in lars to get guarantees, but then turn around and the system as they relate to how those loans get say, "There are certain neighborhoods and cer- classified. tain houses that we just won't buy, marketing COMMISSIONER BERRY. I understand that. Mr. packages that we won't buy." Nevertheless, the Fishbein also pointed out that poor whites getperson living in that house is probably paying loans more often than do blacks. Also on this her taxes or his taxes and can't get the benefit subject, we might keep in mind as a Commis- they are entitled to. We want to hear from them, sion, that we did a study in Baltimore, when we too. So we are not really out to start a war. We did the Baltimore hearings, and we had testi- are out to try and find out how we can achieve mony from people in the bonding business, who what has to be achieved without the war. But if under oath testified that blacks who had even we have to have a war, then we'll engage that, better track records than whites in the construc- too. tion industry still had to pay higher bonding fees MS. BESSANT. If I might make the comment because it was the history of charging them that what we have said is that regardless, and

173 179 what I said in my testimony, is that regardless of 100 would have been, I think, in that kind of a the causes for the disparity, whether we accept risk situation, in comparison. I don't know. that they are racially motivated or you buy my MS. BESSANT. I think we would agree with analysis about credit history, forget the causes. you. I can't support an industry's failure to do We believe at Nations Bank it is our responsibil- community development lending based on previ- ity to find creative ways to overcome them, re- ous problems we have had in other sectors of our gardless of whether we can sell them in the sec- market. ondarymarket,andforgettinghowour CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. I have one other regulators classify them. But there is no ques- question for you. Out in Denver where I am liv- tion that it takes innovation and that it takes ing and teaching right now, because of the reform to the Community Reinvestment Act if 1980s,half the folks in Denver have got bad you expect that to happen on a legislative basis. credit records. How do they get back? What are CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. the banks doing to let those folks back into the VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Ms. Bessant, I just credit market? hope that you don't take it personally. Yesterday Ms. BESSANT. Interestingly enough, I am from I was at a function in New York with the re- Texas, and due to the1980sand the1990s,a lot gional SBA Administrator speaking to a small of the folks there have the same problem. business award luncheon, and he made a plea to CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Okay, tell me about all the banks in the audience: "We are providing it, please. the guarantee, but you are still not making loans MS. BESSANT. What we are doing is making to the minority businesses. You have a Federal changes in the way we evaluate credit history. guarantee and the banks are not making loans." For example, in the past we would have looked Can you comment on that? at 7 years of your credit history to make a mort- MS. BESSANT. In the markets where we do an gage loan. With the community investment extensive amount of SBA lending, and for us mortgage products that I discussed, we look at a those States would be Virginia, Tennessee, and year to18months of credit history, and in fact, South Carolina, the process seems to work very use the completion of credit counseling courses well. In terms of banks getting started on SBA to offset negative credit history. So to the extent lending, there are a couple of problems. First of that we walk what we talk, which is that we all, the SBA manages on a regional basis. So a believe that borrower education is the key, if we bank like mine that is national in scope has a have got a borrower who will go through educa- very difficult time operating with 12 to 15 to 16 tion, we will overlook quite a bit on their credit varying sets of parameters. report. The other thing that is really important The second reality about the SBA is that, in is that we have made a decision not to rely solely large part, their lending criteria are very similar on third party credit bureau analysis. to traditional bank lending criteria. That is in CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Thank God. response, I believe, to a lot of the criticism they Ms. BESSANT. What we do within those prod- have gotten about the quality of their loan port- ucts, and again, it is in your written testimony, folios. But from a Nations Bank perspective the is look at rent payment, utility payments, tele- SBA guarantee does not always allow us to go phone bill payment, so that the payments are beyond making loans we would otherwise make comparable. In other words, the payments that ourselves. our consumers will make first because they are VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. I just want to com- critical to their survival, which also compare ment on your various points. If you make a big very much to the way they pay their mortgage loanlike in New York, the largest development payments, are the payments that we look at in firm just went bankrupt and took in some huge evaluating their credit history. So I think that portfolio of many banksif we were to take the there are institutional ways to get around it if loss, the potential loss in that transaction, and we have got banks that are willing to do that, take how many small businesses would that loan but make no mistake about it, the Community have actually helped, I don't think 1 in 10 or 1 in Reinvestment Act does not legislate that type of behavior.

174 130 CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. How are the regula- 98 percent of banks would get a passing grade. tors responding to that kind of creativity? Now the figures are about 12 percent are failing. MS. BESSANT. In general, they respond very That represents a change, but I think it is im- favorably. Those are the examiners, of course, portant to understand that in the best of circum- who come in and evaluate our C.RA performance. stances, CRA does not require the regulators to Our safety and soundness regulators are waiting do anything about even poor performance. anxiously to see how those loans perform. Now they can use that record and take it into CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. Mr. Fishb- account the next time that bank seeks to expand ein, you have got lots of information. I can see it and deny their application on CRA grounds, but in the file there. they don't have to do that. They have only de- MR. FISHBEIN. Well, there are a lot of very nied a handful of applications. In the close to perceptive remarks from people, including your- 100,000 expansions that have occurred, there self, Chairman Fletcher, and the other Commis- have been less than, I think, about 50 denials of sioners, that are on the table, and I don't know expansion requests. That tool is used few and far quite how to respond, but I do want to make a between. Now of course you know Fair Housing couple of points. The first one is to really encour- and Equal Credit Opportunity Acts require a age you to distinguish between the Community whole different reaction. If regulators find that Reinvestment Act and fair lending enforcement. an institution is in violation of those two laws, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. All right. they can take a whole series of steps, specific MR. FISHBEIN. As someone who has worked civil action, supervisory action against an insti- with community groups, probably trained as tution. They can refer the individual loan appli- many community groups as anybody else on the cant situation to the Justice Department for uses of the Community Reinvestment Act, I be- prosecution. That is something that they do not lieve it is a very important and effective tool. I do. The regulators appeared before the House have always gone to great lengths to distinguish Banking Committee 2 weeks ago, and they were that law from the the Fair Housing Act and the asked by the Chairman of the Consumer Affairs Equal Credit Opportunity Acts. I think that be- and Coinage Subcommittee, Ed Torres, "How comes particularly important now because there many cases of substantive violations of race dis- is an effort, even among the best-motivated crimination did you refer to the Justice Depart- banking institutions out there, that to the extent ment last year?" that there are disparities in lending, that is a Two, they think, among the four agencies. CRA issue. That is important because the CRA Now, even they, even the regulators, said that isn't requiring the regulators to do anything they do not feel confident that that reflected the about it. All they rate institutions on is level of true level of discrimination that was occurring in performance. That is an important factor. Now mortgage lending. But they conceded that their they are published so the public can get some examination process was unable to detect a lot of sense of how an institution is evaluated by the that. I really encourage you to just remember Federal regulators, but it doesn't require them to that I think both tools have their place. The civil do anything about it. rights enforcement tools, and CRA certainly, but CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Define the level of they are different laws, and we ought to view performance. them very differently. MR. FISHBEIN. Well, they have a four-tiered Now I think CRA certainly could be made bet- rating system, an "outstanding" being the high- ter, and it has been plagued by weak enforce- est and "satisfactory" being the next, then "needs ment from the beginning. The regulators have to improve" and "substantial noncompliance." never liked the law. They have had to be dragged About 8 percent of the banks get "outstanding." kicking and screaming into the enforcement of About 80 percent get "satisfactory," and about 12 it. percent get the two lowest grades. That repre- In complete frustration in 1989, Congress sents a significant change since before these rat- mandated that they had to disclose their work ings were disclosed to the publicthe rating dis- product to the publicin an effort to use Justice closure began in July of 1990. Before that, about OliverWendellHolmes'oldmaximthat

175 181 "sunshine is sometimes the best disinfectant," Great Western would be making 6.2 percent of hoping that if they opened up the process, that it the mortgage loans in 1990 to an 80 percent or would provide a disincentive for the very in- more minority area, where they are making al- flated ratings that were being handed out before most 30 percent of all the mortgage loans with- disclosure. It has helped, at least, to some de- out doing anything special. gree, and the agencies appear to be putting more I think it suggests, in part, its commitment effort into it. However, there still are some real and its effort and seriousness of seeing this as weaknesses in the examination process. being a business market, a good way to make You were talking about Bank of America. I money. It doesn't have to be any kind of special was looking at some numbers that were pro- social purpose. They are a bank that has got a duced by a group in south central L.A. called pretty good return on investments. They would Communities forAccountable Reinvestment. argue, "We can make money lending here. If the They looked at the 1990 lending patterns for other banks aren't doing it, we are going to go in some of the big banks in south central L.A. They and do it ourselves." The point is that special found that the market sharethe percentage ofprograms, alone, may not ultimately change the all the mortgage loans being made by banks and picture of things unless there really is a commit- S&Ls in areas that had a less than 10 percent ment behind that. minority, for example, in the case of Bank of I just want to mention just a couple of quick America, was 11 percent of all the mortgage recommendations if you are going to meet with loans being made. Then we have what you see is Chairman Riegle about CRA enforcement. I have the step effect. As the area becomes increasingly read most of these CRA evaluations that have minority, Bank of America's market share keeps been disclosed to the publicabout half of the dropping down and dropping down and dropping banks that they examined under the public dis- down so that when it gets to census tracts that closure requirements. If you look at them, you are 80 percent or more minority, they are now will see there are very few factual details. In only making 2.7 percent of the mortgage loans, fact, there is something approaching a generic whereas they were making 11 percent before. CRA performance evaluation. You can't even tell Now, why is that important? Bank of America what community they are writing about. There received a top CRA rating, "outstanding" rating, are a lot of adjectives and descriptive terms from the regulators. Bank of America, if you had about adequate performance or relatively ag- them here today, would talk about some very gressive and this and that, but very few statis- ambitious flexible mortgage programs they have tics and numbers about what banks are doing. to make mortgage loans, and would talk about There was legislation before the Senate Banking their affirmative efforts, but when you look atCommittee last year that would have required their actual market share, you realize that it a standardized statistical reporting of these does not appear to be making a difference. In evaluations. Again, I don't think this is going to contrast, there is another institutionand I am happen without Congress telling the regulators not in the business of recommending one institu- that we want those kinds of reports. tion versus another. I am just looking at the Secondly, I think there needs to be expanded databut Great Western, which is the big sav- disclosure, and I mention it in my remarks. I ings bank out in California, very active in the think the small business loan area is a critical L.A. market, doesn't have any special mortgage area. There are regulations out for comment loan products. They haven't said they would do right now that will for the first time, will require anything differently, whether they are lending to banks like Cathy's and other institutions to iden- minority neighborhoods or white neighborhoods. tify in their call reportsthe reports they pub- We looked at their market share. They have the lish on outstanding loansa special category for opposite step effect. They have their smallest small business lending. But there is nothing in market in predominantly white communities, there about minority business lending, for exam- and they actually have a bigger market share as ple, so there is no itemization. We are the only an area becomes increasingly minority. They go industrial country that does not require our from in a 90 percent white neighborhood where banks to report detailed information about the

176 189 extent to which they are lending to the small banks, they have had a disproportionately high business community, and if that information failure rate. The majority of all the institutions were available, it would provide the public with receiving poor grades have been banks with a better sense of what banks are doing and even under $100 million in assets, which I think sur- help the regulators in evaluating the banks for prises a lot of people because the argument you CRA performance. will hear from the small bankersis,"We Thirdly, I would say that the administration is wouldn't be in business if we weren't serving the very supportive of it, and it seems very likely, ifneeds of our communities." Of course, how they not this year, next year, that the banking system define their community when you go into some is going to move to full-scale, nationwide inter- smaller communities is up for discussion. I think state branching. Nations Bank has been one of where the issue arises is in those small commu- the leading proponents of interstate branching. nities where there may be a very segregated mi- But if there are not any changes in the Commu- nority population, which the small bank doesn't nity Reinvestment law, interstate branching will consider to be part of its lending community. I drastically weaken the usefulness of CRA be- think the regulators are picking up on that in cause CRA rates how well a bank is serving, not their evaluations, and these banks are getting how well branches are serving the needs of the poor grades. community. Under existing law, if a bank was Also, some small banks have a very low loan- able to branchas opposed to expand across to-asset ratio, and they basically take deposits, State lines by acquiring other banksit is con- and they invest them. They are kind of invest- ceivable that they can operate in all 50 States of ment bankers more than they are bankers that the Union and get only one homogenized CRA are putting loans back into the community. I evaluation, based on their record in all the com- think the issue is not so much small versus large munities where they have branches throughout because you can find examples of good large the United States. banks and good small banks and poor large We would recommend that there be at least a banks and poor small banks as well. The issue is State-by-State evaluation, so that if they branch whether they ought to be covered by the Com- interstate, at least you would know how well the munity Reinvestment Act, and they have been branches are performing within individual mar- making an attempt to get themselves exempted kets. That is going to be absolutely critical. The from the law which is something that my organi- Office of Thrift Supervision about a month and a zation and a lot of other national housing and half ago permitted savings and loans to branch civil rights community groups have opposed very nationwide without legislation. However, they strongly. didn't make any changes to CRA evaluations. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Mr. Tidwell, what is Right now, if an S&L wants to branch nation- this small bank thing doing to black banks? wide, it is still going to get only one evaluation Most of them are under $100 million. Do you regardless of how many States it is operating in. have any late information as to what is happen- The less specificity in this evaluation process, ing to black and Hispanic banks? the less usefulness to the public, and even to the MR. TIDWELL. I don't have any late informa- regulators, that they will have in really measur- tion, but I do hope to get some late information ing the relative performance of these institutions from Los Angeles, in particular, south central and helping them meet community credit needs Los Angeles. in low income areas and in minority communi- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. What do they have, ties. four black banks out there? Ms. BESSANT. As an aside, we would support MR. TIDWELL. That's right. the concept of State-by-State ratings. CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Are there any His- CHAIRPERSON Fletcher. One more question panic banks in that neighborhood, do you know? with reference to small banks and CRA. MR. TIDWELL. I am not aware of whether MR. FISHBEIN. From what we have seen from there are. In any case, our president, John the rating disclosure thus far, although small Mack, out there, has been very active with re- banks like to classify themselves as community spect to community reinvestment and lending

177 183 practices of financial institutions andso forth. vate mortgage insurance for many of the borrow- We expect that over time he will be getting some ers that we would like to extend credit to. The of that. absence of private mortgage insurance causes us COMMISSIONER BERRY. Mr. Bates was trying to hold those loans in our own portfolio rather to say something. than sell them into the secondary market. But DR. BATES. Yes, yes, one brief comment. As we find that to be acceptable in terms of allow- the topic of small business lending rightlycomes ing us to meet community needs. to the table in the discussions of the CRA, there MR. GONZALEZ. Mr. Fishbein, the Community is an important point that needs to be empha- Reinvestment Act, in terms of small banks, a lot sized. The regulators have been talking aboutof small banks argueand I am talking about rates of loan approval. While that might be ap- two-branch banksargue that what they are propriate in the realm of housing, the mere proc- most concerned about is the enormous amount of ess of loan approval in small business lending is paperwork that they are required to carry. They not crucial. In the data that I look at, looking at say that a large bank can basically go out and thousands of minority-owned businesses and the hire people just to do the paperwork. They talka financing that they receive from banks, a huge lot of "in-kind" types of services that they would problem is that among those who do receive like defined as part of their community out- loans, the loan approval coincides with system- reachparticipation in high schools, elementary atically much smaller loans to minority-owned schools, reaching out to minority organizations businesses. from a civic perspective. What can you say about When we control for risk factors, and particu- that? larly look at the amount of owner equity, per MR. FISHBEIN. There is nothing in the stat- dollar of owner equity, the black-owned business utes or regulations that requires paperwork to that does get bank financing is getting less than the degree that small banks have complained half the loan dollars of its nonminority counter- about. In fact, the OMB did a study that was part. The Senate has to be sensitive to the pecu- released last June which shows that in the area liarities of small business lending, and not re- of consumer compliance, CRA was at the bot- strict their attention merely to approval, buttomrequiring the least amount of institutional look a bit deeper at the issue of loan size for hours for the banks to comply with it. I think, to those who are funded. the extent that there is documentation required, CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Loan-to-equity? it is really to appease what they anticipate to be DR. BATES. In terms of loan-to-equity, the typ- what the regulators are going to want to see, ical black-owned business is getting less than rather than anything that is formally required. half the loan dollars per equity dollar of anon- There is a little funny game that goes on here, minority small business. where the regulators aren't often very specific CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Anyone else? about what they want to see, but they say, "We MR. GONZALEZ. Ms. Bessant, about the pro- are going to record you on what you can actually grams that you have in effect or that you con- prove you have done, but we don't require you to template having in effect for minority communi- keep any documentation." I think that is some- ties in terms of what I thought I heard were thing that certainly could get addressed, but I innovative ways of providing finances, either don't think you need to examine the whole class mortgages or loansif you are willing to go of institutions in order to address that problem above the 80 percent loan value, aren't there ad- to the extent that it's a problem. Regarding the ditional fees that the applicant is required to pay various kinds of good deeds the banks would per- or insurance coverage they are required to get? form, CRA was adopted to be a credit loss. We MS. BESSANT. In general, the industry has the have always felt that it ought to be very nar- option of requiring a borrower to have private rowly defined that way, which is not to say mortgage insurance if there is a loan-to-value in banks can't do other very worthwhile things in excess of 80 percent. Private mortgage insurance their community. But the CRA ought to be about is not required with our product, and that is pri- business, about making loans, and hopefully marily because we have difficulty in finding pri- making money for the institutions, and giving

178 184 them a nudge to discover some markets that per- we heard from one of the Governors of the Fed- haps they didn't know existed before. eral Reserve Board before you came up here. In MR. GONZALEZ. The reporting requirement is answertoaquestionfromCommissioner annual? Redenbaugh, he said that the economy, if I can MR. FISHBEIN. There is no reporting require- characterizeitthis waymanufacturing is ment for CRA. The only thing a bank is required strong in this country, that the economy seems to do is publish and update annually a CRA to be doing pretty well. In the paper that he statement. submitted, in his testimony, he talked about in- MR. GONZALEZ. But how often do they get the creasing African American incomes in the 1980s. ratingthe A, B, C, D rating? The picture of the economy was one that was MR. FISHBEIN. You might want to comment on thriving. it, but it does vary with the agency and the type You described the economy, as did some peo- and size of an institution. ple before that panel, as being in big trouble, MS. BESSANT. Typically, we're reviewed every and that entry level jobs were being destroyed, 18 months to 2 years. I will say that the biggest and that we needed a Marshall Plan for America misnomer out there is that CRA does not cause in order to respond to these problems. Where paperwork within a financial institution. I will does the truth lie? give you an example of that. Three years ago, MR. TIDWELL. To begin with, Commissioner, it our CRA exam was conducted with one examiner is a very complex subject matter, in which it is for, effectively, a week. The last CRA exam that very difficult to find the truth. Economics is not we went through had, at one time, as many as a precise science, as we all know. 30 examiners, and the entire exam took 6 weeks. COMMISSIONER BERRY. It's a dismal science. So when you look at the man hours that go into MR. TIDWELL. It can be slippery. Having said it, I promise you they have got to have paper to that, though, I am not familiar with many peo- look at in order to, in their minds, evaluate the ple who would share what I understand to be the process. The paperwork burden is substantial. I characterization of the current condition of the am not saying that that paperwork burden American economy that you just indicated. means that we shouldn't be subject to the CRA There are some very real, some very serious in- or that we shouldn't have to keep those records. dicators of the decline in the U.S. economy, I just think it is a misnomer to say that there is stacked against other economies of other indus- no requirement for paper because there is, in trialized nations, and in terms of just indicators effect, that requirement. that we use ourselves to monitor where we are MR. GONZALEZ. Would you support a quar- at a given point in time. The Federal budget def- terly reporting system that would just allow you icit is one of those indicators. The rate of produc- to update? tivity growth is another indicator, GNP growth, MS. BESSANT. I think that there may be a and so forth. misunderstanding. When the regulators come in, Even aside from the current recession itself they look at day-to-day documentation. Inter- and there are obvious signs that there is still nally, we produce a quarterly lending data re- trouble afoot, with respect to unemployment port. They look at a series of those quarterly rates and those kinds of thingsbut even aside reports. We would welcome standardized report- from that, there is a broad consensus of opinion, ing requirements in order to overcome what Mr. not universal opinion, that the U.S. economy Fishbein accurately referred to as some confu- over the past 10 to 20 years has experienced sion about what exactly it is the regulators do some problems that have to do with its position want to see from us periodically. in the global marketplace. MR. GONZALEZ. Thank you. There are indicators that, indeed, our stan- CHAIRPERSON FLETCHER. Did you have an- dard of living has slowed down, real wage other question, Commissioner Berry? growth is slow, and those kinds of dimensions of COMMISSIONER BERRY. Yes. I have two very a condition that suggest that there are some fast questions. The first one is for Dr. Tidwell, things that need to be fixed. I don't know, in and the other one is for Dr. Bates. Dr. Tidwell, particular, what kinds of data the person you

179 185 mentioned was referring to on which he based year in income. In terms of manufacturing those conclusions. What I do know, though, is strength, manufacturing does vary a bit from re- that there is the prevailing view that while our gion to region, but nationwide, it increasingly economy is by no means about to go down the offers white-collar jobs to technical personnel, tubes, and while our economy in many respects clerical personnel, managerial, professional per- remains the strongest in the worldit certainly sonnel. Blue-collar employment within manufac- is still the biggestat the same time, there are turing is shrinking nationwide. If you look at these disquieting signs that have begun in the blue-collar employment in manufacturing, you current recession, at least, to permeate down to find that the only growth sector in blue-collar the average American household and affect our employment inthe manufacturing sectoris daily lives. Those are the kinds of things, those within the small business sector. There blue- larger fundamental economic problems, that the collar manufacturing jobs are increasing, and Marshall Plan for America is designed to get at. they are disproportionately low wage jobs. COMMISSIONER BERRY. Well, in particular, he A city such as Los Angeles typifies this trend. talked about the strong manufacturing base in Manufacturing numbers do not look bad, but the the country, and that we have technological big unionized outfits, like the auto companies changes, but manufacturing is still strong. The and Bethlehem Steel, closed shop. The small panel before that talked about the absence of outfits that are doing labor intensive manufac- entry level jobs for people who wanted to gain a turing are creating jobs, but those are low wage toeholdI think that is the way it was putin jobs, low wage, relatively low scale, high turn- the economy so that they could have upward mo- over jobs. Manufacturing is really most healthy bility. This is what many immigrants did before, in this country for the white collar, portion of the and poor blacks and Latinos, for example, in labor force. For the blue-collar portion, there has south central Los Angeles and other places, been tremendous downward mobility and job would not have the opportunity to do this. Is loss except in the lowest paying small business that a particular problem that you focus on sector of manufacturing. when you talk about the economy? Is that where COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. It seems to me the difference lies, perhaps? that in what you have just said, you are collaps- DR. BATES. Let me comment briefly. I have ing two separate issues together. One is the been reviewing various statistics lately, revising health and strength and competitiveness of the a book of mine for publication, so my research U.S. manufacturing base on which we have assistant has been bringing me files of these de- pretty good data. The serious problems of the tailed data. We can look, first of all, at the sur- 1970s have been turned around in the 1980s, prising statement about rising median incomes and productivity is growing very rapidly. That is within black households in the 1980s. Dis- one issue, and the other issue is the employment aggregate that into several regions of the coun- bases associated with that. I think it would be try. In the South, throughout the 1980s, we saw clarifying to separate those as two different is- continuing increases in black incomes fairly sues, one of which is a problem that we need to much across the board. The median figure would deal with, and the other one an achievement have increased in the South as a region, al- over which we can be proud. though the South, as a region, is diverse. DR. BATES. Manufacturing should be viewed If you look at the non-South regions, particu- as having gone through a tremendous period of larly the Midwest and the Northeast, one would transition. In that transition, the manufacturing find deterioration in median black household in- sector in the aggregate can perhaps be viewed as comes. Of course, the Midwest is the area where stronger than ever, but that whole process of large-scale manufacturing of the traditional va- change has had a disproportionate impact on dif- riety, such as the auto and steel industry, has ferent parts of the labor force. been most in decline. The Midwest is the specific COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Exactly, and we area where median black household incomes need to see this as a labor force problem, not an have declined most substantially, where we have industrial base problem. seen an increase in households below $10,000 a DR. BATES. Right, exactly.

180 186 COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. Because the line franchiseowning a series of McDonalds or productivity is growing faster than Germany or Foot Locker-type stores would be a high invest- Japan. ment type of venture that would offer quality COMMISSIONER BERRY. There is some under- products at competitive prices. You could lure standing to be gained here. black entrepreneurs into those lines of busi- COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. It would seem nesses, and indeed, those types of businesses do that way to me. appear in inner-city areas, but forget the"Mom COMMISSIONER BERRY. My last question, Mr. and Pop" store and the $5,000 micro loan and Chairman, is to Dr. Bates again. To go back to supporting inefficiency by "Buy Black" cam- your opening remarks about what we canand paigns. cannot learn from Korean small businessmen COMMISSIONER BERRY. It is still not clear to what blacks or African Americans can and can- me, if that is a good strategy for Koreanbusi- not learnyou said the education that some of nessmen, if it is a good strategy. our young African Americanpeople would be DR. BATES. If. wasted if they tried to emulate them by going COMMISSIONER BERRY. Apparently for some of into small businesses, "Mom and Pop" stores and them it seems to be, at least in the short term. that kind of thing, if I understood you correctly. I You described it as people who have these stores, am asking you because in theAfrican American and they live somewhere else, and this is what community for some time now, there have been they do. It seems to be working, and there is also people advocating such doctrines as before de- animosity among some groups of the population segregation, we had all these "Mom and Pop" who believe that, "They have all the stores, and stores, and we had a booming black economy, we don't have any stores," and so on.Why is it and we lost it all when we had desegregation, not a good strategy to say that African Ameri- that what we should do is aggregate all the dol- cans ought tothose who havethe skills and lars in the black community. If we just put our inclinationaccumulate all of our money, and money together, we could financeall the develop- then have our own stores in our own communi- ment we want because we have got one of the ties? Why isn't that a good strategy if it is a good world's greatest economies, that what our people strategy for the Koreans? should do is to work in that economy, and do DR. BATES. I don't think the evidence, in total, precisely what you are saying they shouldn't do. indicates that it is a good strategy for most Ko- Are you familiar with this, and are you telling reans who are in this small business sector.An- me that this doesn't make any sense? ecdotally, we can always find very, very success- DR. BATES. By and large, I am saying it ful Korean firms in poor minority communities. doesn't make any sense. It was tried largely in But by and large, it is a lot of work, and in light the 1920s, probably more so even than in the of the large financial capital investment and the 1960s. "Buy Black" was big. Retail businesses human capital skills of many of these Koreans, flourished in the 1920s, and many of those retail they are getting a low rate of return for invest- businesses hung on right into the 1960s, 1970s, ing a lot of their resources into a small business. and 1980s. "Buy Black" was big once again in Although the income might look impressive, the 1960s. It has not been sustained. when you consider what they would be earning if The retailing sector has been on the decline, they really had the choice to move into the cor- and retailing within the black business commu- porate sector or into self-employment uncon- nity is a very high risk, low rate of return, high strained, they would make much more. I think failure rate sector. I think that there is a niche, that economic development will be generated however, in which retailing does make sense. Ifwhen African American young people follow the we look for success stories in retailing,think ofroute of self-employment or the direction of the type of retailing that would lure in the indi- greatest opportunity. That will not be in going vidual that has the MBA degree and the mana- into business in small-scale ghetto retail stores. gerial experience out there in a key area like That is simply a high risk, low rate of return, marketing. That would not be a "Mom and Pop" overly competitive. store, that would be something like a top of the

181 187 COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. However,it procurement contracts. Many of these minority does seem to be one of the few opportunities vendors, who have the sophistication and drive open for some people. Maybe the better question to win these State procurement contracts, still is, "How do we get the rate of return on black cannot get bank financing for the working capi- labor and black capital or minority labor and tal to fulfill their contracts. If an intermediary minority capital up?" "How do we get the postcould step in, they might be very successful. tax rates of return up?" Let them sort out That's what the State agency has done in whether they have a retailing model or a distri- Maryland. Dealing solely with minority-owned bution model or service business. I am much businesses,largelyblack-ownedbusinesses more inclined to leave these issues to the mar- rejected by the commercial banks, they have ket, but I am certainly convinced that the ar- achieved a default rate of one-half of 1 percent, rangement is stacked against these groups. The and their programsupposedly a development interaction of the tax code and the welfare code program to be subsidized by the taxpayers of keeps the rates of return on labor and capital Marylandhas been paying its own way en- down near zero. tirely. Not only has it been paying its own way I want to mention something that may be by lending to these black-owned businesses re- known to the panelists, but may not be known to jected by the banks, but it has been building up all of the Commissioners. A.P. Giannini, when he its loan fund to such an extent that the State of came to this country, found that Anglo banks Maryland, inits present fiscalcrisis, came didn't see any business opportunity in these not around and wanted theminority business very literate Italian immigrants that were living agency to contribute $5 million of its surplus to around California. They had a bad credit history, help the State finance its budget deficit. Here is and everything was all wrong. Then he founded a minority business community within Maryland the Bank of America because he saw a tremen- that is not only growing, with the help of a State dous opportunity in the unwashed market not intermediary, but it is contributing excess funds being served by the Anglo banks. Bank of Amer- to help the State of Maryland plug its fiscal cap. ica became so successful and such a threat to the COMMISSIONER REDENBAUGH. We need some established eastern banks that the legislation way to help traditional bankers get over their forbidding interstate banking was then passed to and maybe they are not prejudicedtheir super- confine the problem to California. More recently, stitions about to whom they should lend. A the junk bond business was a similar or equiva- friend of mine once told me, "You never want to lent mechanism for making credit available to buy a Triple A-rated bond, ever, ever, because the unwashed, to those who weren't in the coun- the only thing that can happen to you is that the try club set. That, too, disturbed much of the credit rating could go down." This was a guy in traditionalWallStreet,easterninvestment Peking, who came here and made $500 million banking establishments, no longer a source of one year. I should have taken more of his advice, capital we have now. I am encouraged by what and he should have taken some of mine actually. the representative of NationsBank has told us, VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. We have been fo- that NationsBank sees a market here, not a cusing on most interesting topics so far. Maybe I chance to do good, but a chance to do well. It is can shift gears. I know Commissioner Anderson through that, through this enlightened and un- and Commissioner Buckley may have a couple of enlightened self-interest, that we are going to other questions. If I can ask Professor Bates and solve the problems of poverty in this country. Dr. Tidwell to comment a little bitsince you DR. BATES. Let me comment briefly on the know so much about the Korean community Giannini example. There are intermediaries out from your earlier commentswhat would be there today operating, dealing with black-owned your recommendation,ontherealitythat businesses that fit that model. Take for example, Koreans are going to be in the black community, the Maryland Small Business Finance Authority. even though the returns are not justified, since, Its bread-and-butter item over the years has Commissioner Redenbaugh mentioned, there are been assisting minority entrepreneurs who come not many alternatives at this very moment. in and win contracts from the State of Maryland, They are going to continue to do business in the

182 188 black and other minority communities. How can ating in the minority community. We have an we help to really bridge the gap so that we will aversion to the minority community above and have less of a conflict? What would be your ad- beyond a black-white differential here. That re- vice? ally handicaps the most promising black entre- DR. BATES. The reporter from the Los Angeles preneur, who is more likely to get credit by mov- Times called me and asked me if I thought the ingoutoftheminoritycommunity and Korean-owned businesses would rebuild in south minimizes chances of getting credit by remain- central Los Angeles. I said they are going to re- ing within the minority community. Level that build for the reason they are there in the first differential, give the Koreans less of an advan- place, lack of alternatives. That's why they will tage, and I believe that we won't eliminate the rebuild. They will be there, and the antagonism antagonisms, but they will lessen. will continue. MR. TIDWELL. I would just, if I might, under- What can we possibly do to lessen that antag- score pretty much what Mr. Bates has said. In onism? I think that there is a very feasible strat- more specific terms, the summary observation is egy that relates to many of the items discussed that, really, the central precondition is broad- today. When one looks at bank lending to black ened opportunity. There are several things that and Latino businesses within inner-city commu- must be pursued to achieve that. One is more nities, the results that one sees can only be de- antidiscrimination effort, i.e., making equal op- scribed as massive redlining. It is not as though portunity a fact as well as a law. The other is by the Koreans and the indigenous minority popu- way of simply promoting more opportunity for lation, or recent immigrants in the case of Mexi- people to realize the American dream. The one cans, are playing on a level playing fieldwith thing that is happening in these communities, Koreans who arrive with substantial wealth ofincluding south central Los Angelesand we all their own. If we could even the struggle some- know that there are a number of things that kick what, we might see instead of the struggling into this, that have to do with the lack of prog- "Mom and Pop" Hispanic and black-owned busi- ress, if you will, on the part of African Americans nesses that are slipping and really can't com- with respect to economic development and busi- pete, perhaps we would see a larger number of ness ownership and so forththe one thingthat the large-scale, more viable, top of the market has happened is African Americans in Watts and retailing operations, black and Hispanic-owned. south central Los Angeles, and other places have That could be facilitated by much less bank observed over the years, other groups come and redlining. Let me say one other thing about go. They come, and they do well, andthey go. redlining. We look, of course, at loan approval, Even allowing for some of the acknowledged bar- and I believe we have to look at loan amount as riers to progress on the part of the African Amer- well. It is not just a racial thing. In that one ican community itselfsome of which we don't experiment I did in my work, which entails look- want to talk aboutthe factual matter is African ing at the data on thousands of businesses, I Americans have experienced barriers to their looked at black-owned businesses operating in progress which have been, if not unique, cer- 28 large metropolitan areas in this country, and tainly disproportionately present to them. divided those who did receive bank funding into Much of the anger which spills over and most two groupsthose whose businesses were lo- recently spilled over in south central Los Ange- cated in the minority community and those les directed at other minority groups has to do whose businesses were in the central business with: a) that continuing lack of opportunity on district or suburbia or whatever in nonminority the one hand, opportunity for everyone in these communities. Of course, the vast majority of communities; and b)this idea that it has black-owned businesses are in the minority com- happened again. It has happened again and it is munity. just not fair, and the only way to really express But for the substantial number that are not, that kind of frustration and disgust, and not the black-owned businesses that are operating out- only way, but one of the ways, regrettably, that it side of the minority community got substantially is expressed is through the kind of acting out larger loans than black-owned businesses oper- against other minority groups. That really is a

183 189 frustration with the system that produces this getting the kind of support from the system that kind of differential progress on the part of Afri- I perceive you all getting." can Americans versus other minority groups who VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Commissioner An- are, in some cases, equally deserving of having derson? Any further comments from anyone? more opportunity than they presently do. MR. FISHBEIN. I just wanted to mentionone Until and unless those barriersare elimi- other thing that I think is important to take into nated, until and unless the economic pie isex- account when we are talking about access to panded and there is real equal opportunity for bank credit for small businesses, thatwe are everyone, there are likely to be these kinds of moving towards a trend of an increasinglycon- intergroup conflicts and antagonisms thatare solidated banking industry. I thinksome projec- perfectly understandable. They happen allover tions I've seen indicate that with interstate the world. We know that, but thereare likely to branching, about 300 of the top banks would be those continuing kinds of conflictsamong mi- control 90 percent of the banking assets in the nority groups scrapping over a small piece of the United States. At the same time, the research pie. That is what we have to concentrateon will always show that large banks, because of doing, expanding the pie. their nature, don't do a particularly good job of VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Okay. Staff Direc- serving the needs of very small businesses. tor? I suggest, as a matter of public policy,we are MR. GONZALEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I creating an increasing gap that, if it is not met just wanted to follow up with Dr. Bates because I through the private market, is going to need would tend to agree. My own experience, having some public sector solutions to it. The conven- spent a week in south central L.A. right after tional market theory would be that if there isa the riots, was that many African Americans, in- need, there would be a new bank that would dividuals and community organizations,were form to address that need if the large bank not really interested in substituting for the Ko- wasn't serving the need. But if youare talking rean businesses. In other words, what they were about capital poor neighborhoods, it is unlikelya concerned about was what Dr. Tidwell said, and new bank is going to be set up to serve an area that is that they had this perception thatper- that is already capital poor. There really isan haps the system provided Koreans withmore op- increasing conflict that I don't think has fully portunity, financial opportunities, than they had been discussed in public policy. gotten. They felt frustrated about that. MR. TIDWELL. If I might just makea brief The "Mom and Pop" stores thatwere provid- closing comment. Here we are 27years later, ing the milk in the middle of the night andso and if there is anything that might be consoling forth weren't something that they wanted to in this tragic experience of the past few weeks it take over or substitute or tell the Koreans, is that there is, in my perception at least, much "Don't come back in because weare going to do more frank talking. In the 1960s, following it." They weren't saying that. They certainlyWatts, it was more a matter of "this offendsour were saying that they didn't want the liquor moral sensibilities, and we have to do something stores to come back in. As one individual said, about it in addition to the law and order things." "What we have been trying to do for the last 20 Now the talk is much more frank with respect to years, the rioters took care of in 2 days." That the self-interest of the Nation being at stake, the was the multiple liquor stores on one block. self-interest of suburbia being at stake,as well I think I have a tendency to agree that I didn't as the inner cities and so forth. Therefore, there see and I didn't hear a lot of African Americans might be a greater likelihood this time, hopefully talking about, "We would like to substitute for there is, that there will be a revolution that will their businesses." In fact, they are saying, "We be more serviceable to us over time. We won't would like to let them come back in becausewe find ourselves again and again confronting the need the milk in the middle of the night. If they same sort of situation. Perhaps there is more of are willing to provide it, fine. That's not my bag. a recognition of a kind of enlightened self-inter- I want to do some other things, but Iam not est in all of this, in addition to the kind of moral

184 190 considerations that enter into the equation. We'll joining us this afternoon. If we may proceed, see where it leads. General Counsel. VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Equal time, Ms. MS. BOOKER. We would like to invite Mr. Bessant. Do you want to have 30 seconds or a Glasser to begin by introducing yourself for the minute, Ms. Bessant? record. Each panelist has been asked to speak no Ms. BESSANT. Rather than repeat myself, longer than 10 minutes, followed by questions what I will say is that I believe that the focus on from the Commissioners. You are certainly in- loan denial rates misses a big piece of the prob- vited to submit extended comments for the rec- lem, that is the amount of loan applications that ord. Mr. Glasser. we get. We estimated in our 1990 Home Mort- gage Disclosure Act data that 13 percentof our Statement of Ira Glasser, Executive Director, applications came from minority applicants. As American Civil Liberties Union you heard in my testimony, 22 percentof the MR. GLASSER. Thank you. My name is Ira demographics of our markets are minority Glasser. I am the executive director of the Amer- households. ican Civil Liberties Union, probably the oldest To me, the real short-term area that we can civil liberties organization in the country, now 72 address is encouraging more loan applications, years old. I have often been asked what civil overcoming whatever barriers exist: discrimina- rights has to do with civil liberties, a distinction tion, perceived discrimination, intimidation, un- I have never recognized. It seems to me, as certainty, lack of education. The real nut to crack someone who grew up in the 1950s, thatcivil is getting applicants in the door. Over time, if we rights, racial discrimination, particularly with are doing our job of educating our consumers respect to African Americans in this country, is and developing creative and innovative product probably the most serious, the most urgent, the development, we can get the denial rates to a most persistent, and the worst civil liberties vio- more equitable level. But until weaddress where lation and problem of our time. the original sources of credit are, and where cus- It is the persistence of what I have come to tomers feel comfortable going and getting loans, think of as gross institutionalized racial injus- we aren't going to begin to solve theproblem. tice, which I take as a broader term than racial VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. We want to thank discrimination, and which more aptly describes you very much for your generosity in comingand the issue we ought to be confronting. That gross sharing your thoughts with us. We have decided racial injustice is an issue that I think this coun- to keep open the book for 30 more days, so if you try has never fully faced, never fully committed feel that you have not fully expressed yourself, itself to resolve, and always, at crucial points, or you have other information that youthink we backed away from and learned to tolerate in- could benefit from, we welcome you to send it to stead of vanquishing it. I resist, at this time in us. our history, the impulse to talk aboutdetailed [Recess.] programs or the interstices of particular statutes that go under the name of civil rights laws. I Civil Rights Panel think that what we do and how we do it is a VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. We will start the matter of enormous debate because we have to final panel on civil rights. It is certainly one of do it right as well as doing it at all. It has to be the most important panels. I want to, at the out- effective. But beyond the details, I would suggest set, just mention that Chairman Fletcher and to you, that the biggest problem we face and Commissioner Redenbaugh had to go to the Hill have always faced in this country is the lack of to meet with the Senator in charge of the Bank- sufficient commitment, and I think it is a probing Committee, as you may have heard during lem that we face tragically, worse than at any the last session, on the topic of the Community time in my life, at this moment. Reinvestment Act. They are not able to join us, If there is a role for the U.S. Commission on but we certainly appreciate your generosity in Civil Rights, if there is a role for groups like the ACLU, that role today is not only to talk about specific programs, but to reawaken in this

BEST COPY AVA BLE 185 191 country, and in our government, and in our peo- end to school segregation. We wanted an end to ple, a sense of the moral urgency of this problem, legalized racial discrimination in employment. a sense of injustice, and a sense, ultimately, of We wanted an end to legalized discrimination in self-preservation.Racialinjusticehas been housing. We wanted an end to legalized discrimi- America's worst civil liberties problem from the nation in voting. We wanted an end to legalized beginning. The vision of American liberty that discriminationinpublic accommodations.It we all learned about in our civics courses, and seemed like a dream, but it seemed like we were that has been a beacon of hope all over the about to get it. We thought that justice would world, was a vision which was compromised follow. with slavery from the very beginning. A nation Well, 5 years later, Dr. King was dead, but the which found it outrageous, a denial of liberty dream of dismantling that legal infrastructure enough to cause a revolution because of a three- seemed almost at hand, and in fact, it was. penny tax on tea, learned to tolerate chattel School segregation was on the run. George slavery and accept it as a price of the birth of the Wallace was chased from the schoolhouse door. new Nation. That slavery, I think, was our origi- The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlawed racial dis- nal sin, a birth defect, that the country has crimination in public accommodations and em- never outgrown, and when confronted with it, ployment. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 'out- we backed away from it. lawedracialdiscriminationinvotingand After the Civil War, when the 14th amend- prescribed ingenious and unprecedented reme- ment was passed, and there was a brief period of dies in section V of that law. The Fair Housing Reconstruction, it looked like perhaps the Na- Act of 1968 prohibited racial discrimination in tion was ready to come to grips with it. But we housing. We thought we were on our way, but did not. We backed away from it again and justice did not follow. It did not follow. Near the learned to tolerate severe racial injustice. The end of his life, Dr. King began to recognize that Supreme Court, in the very first case it had a dismantling the legal infrastructure, what we chance to interpret the 14th amendment, evis- called, then, civil rights laws, was not going to cerated its strength and its power. Congress and be enough because those 200 years of our history the President backed away from civil rightshad blended, fused, merged, institutionalized laws, first stopping enforcing them and then, fi- poverty with institutionalized racial discrimina- nally, repealing many of them. Blacks in the tion in such a way that it was not going to be South were abandoned for another 100 years to accessible to merely outlawing the hard outer Jim Crow laws, to legalized segregation and dis- shell of discrimination. He began to see that, crimination, and to State-sanctioned terror. It is and he began to know that this was going to be a impossible to consider what it is that we do now, much more difficult problem, and one that the what it is that we face now without taking into country was beginning to weary of too. The Ker- account those two centuries of policy-driven per- ner Commission recognizeditas well and secution that is virtually without parallel for any warned us in 1968, as I am sure practically ev- other discriminated-against group in this coun- eryone who has come before you has told you, of try, with the possible exception of American Indi- the development of an American apartheidtwo ans. It is impossible not to take that history into Americas, separate and unequal. account when you begin. I grew up, as I said, in Well, here we sit. It's a long time later, 25 the 1950s. I remember a time when we all years later, and consider some of the indicia of thought that if we could only get rid of the Jim injustice now. Poverty itself is not ever thought Crow laws, if we could only dismantle that legal of as a civil rights issue, but we have to start infrastructure, justice would follow, maybe not thinking of it for a very simple reason. Poverty is right away, but within a short period of time. As always a disaster. It is a disaster to anyone born a young man of 25, I stood in the sun on August into it and limited by it, but it is a special 28, 1963, in front of the Lincoln Memorial listen- problem when three times as many black chil- ing to Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, dream. It wasa dren are born into it as white children. It is a dream we all believed was about to be fulfilled, disaster of a different kind when poverty itself is and it was such a modest dream. We wanted an.not evenly distributed. When it correlates with

186 192 race, that cannot be accident. It is a product of were black. That cannot be an accident, and it is our history, of our policies, of the things wedid not because blacks are genetically more disposed and the things we failed to do. to those diseases or to their consequences. That The traditional route out from that poverty is a consequence of public policy, and you don't has always been education, or thought to be edu- have to be a radical to suggest it. An editorial in cation. But, the schools themselves, 37, 38 years the Journal of the American Medical Association after Brown, remain tragically, deeply unequal called our health care racist. Why? Because and increasingly separate. Why is that? Well, health care depends on private insurance, and part of it has to do with financing, not ordinarily private insurance is linked to employment, and what you would think of as a civil rights issue. employment is linked to racial discrimination But most schools are financed, as you know, by and racial disparity and racial stratification. local property taxes and, therefore, correlated There are 30 million to 37 million people who with who owns land; and who owns land corre- don't have health care because they don't have lates with the history of this country. In a State health insurance, and disproportionate numbers like Alabama, there are districts that spend of them are people of color. How many people get $2,300 a year per pupil and other districts that it, how early do they find out about it, how and spend $165 a year on pupils. That would be un- what is their treatment, and what are their fair enough if it was not racially correlated, but death rates arefrom the flu to cancer, this is a it is deeply racially correlated. Students in the system which discriminates on the basis of medi- school district that spends $2,300 are almost all cal opportunity as it does educational opportu- white, and almost all black in the school district nity and job opportunity. that spends $165 a year on pupils. I am sure I They are all linked in a way that is suffocat- didn't have to tell you that for you to guess it. In ing from which there doesn't seem to be a way some schools, the route out of poverty,there are out. It is not enough anymore to tell people to no libraries. Where there are libraries, there are shake up their values and try harder. We are not often no librarians. There are no laboratories. suffering from a poverty of values. That may be There are no textbooks that are whole. There are a symptom. It is tragic and outrageous tomis- often no windows. The plumbing doesn't work. take it for its cause. What we are dealing with The roof leaks. There are no supplies. People now is an institutionalized kind of prisonthat have to bring supplies themselves, and they are kids are born into and can't get out of. That sort precisely the sort of people who can't bring sup- of stuff has to be remedied in terms of justice plies themselves. These schoolsthis is 1992, and not just in terms of macroeconomic pro- this is nowthose are the kinds of schools that grams. Thurgood Marshall started out to get rid of in This is a country that has systematically, in the case that struck down school segregation. We the last dozen years, abandoned the notion that have not gotten ridden of them. Somehow we government can help through social programs, don't think of that as civil rights anymore. but government must help through social pro- Consider health care. You don't normally grams. That is not to say that ineffective pro- think of health care as a civil rights issue. It was grams will helpthey will notbut the remedy never on the agenda of the ACLU. I read an for ineffective programs is not to abandon pro- article in 1991 in the Washington Post which grams. It is to find effective ones. Wehave to talked about a class of diseases that nobody dies awaken in this country a sense that this is im- from anymore, things like bronchitis, appendec- portant and that our survival depends on it. tomies,gallstoneproblems,gastroenteritis, That sense doesn't exist anymore. A few years things like that, about 12 or 13 different dis- before the recent riots, a poll showed that only eases. People between the ages of 15 and 65 30 percent of white Americans thought that ra- hardly ever die from those kinds of diseases any- cial equality was a problem any longer that re- more. Between the years of 1980 and 1986, ac- quired government remedies. We have to change cording to that article, only 122,000 people died that before you can even begin to talk about pro- from all those 12 or 13 diseases in those 6 years grams. in the whole country, and 80 percent of them

187 193 I want to close this formal part of the testi- Large portions of the population, identifiable mony by pointing out that while Dr. King had a by the color of their skin, who have nothing to dream in 1963, today I have a nightmare. My lose, and no stake in the future, and no believ- nightmare is of Los Angeles all over the country. able reason to hope it is going to change,no My nightmare is of the rising tide of violent place to put their anger, no reason to think that rageresponded to by repression, in a way that politics can make a difference, no reason to vote will make none of us able to live in this society, much less workthat rage cannot stay bottled or want our children or our grandchildren to live up in a way that makes any of us safe. It is in it, in a way that will make civil liberties dis- important to remember that when Rodney King appear quickly forevermore. This is a country was beaten, people did not riot. When they which is responding to these problems by filling showed that beating on television repeatedly, up its prisons with black people. This is a coun- people did not riot. People rioted when justice try in which, according to the FBI, 12 percent of failed, and they did not riot because a jury made drug users and dealers are black, and 38 percent a mistake. Juries make mistakes all the time. of drug arrests are black, and over half of the They rioted because that failure of justice was prisoners in prison now are black. We have mul- emblematic and symptomatic of a pervasive, suf- tiplied the number of prisoners in the last 25 focating failure of justice that is woven into the years by five times, and most of it is drug re- fabric of all of their lives. lated, and most of it is black. Some 25 percent of We have to take some collective responsibility young black men are under the jurisdiction of a for this and deal with it. This is not a black criminal justice agency now. Homicide is the problem. This is an American problem. We have leading cause of death among young black men. to step up and do justice, not only because it is We want to know why so few go to college? It is right at long last, but because it is in the self- because they are dying and incarcerated. I sug- interest of all of us to do so, fast. Thank you. gest to you it is a direct result, at best of neglect, MS. BOOKER. Ms. Narasaki. and at worst, of our own social policies. This has to be seen as a problem, the way we came to see Statement of Karen Narasakl, Bull Conner and his cattle prods in the 1960s. Washington Representative, The nightmare is also that, in a society where Japanese American Citizens League we are a global economy now, we cannot compete Ms. NARASAKI. Thank you. I have prepared with a large section of our population disabled written testimony which I have submitted, and and imprisoned. what I would like to do is just summarize that We don't have much time. When I saw what testimony. was going on in Los Angeles, what flashed into Today, I would like to thank the Commission my mind was an essay that James Baldwin for its recent report on Civil Rights Facing Asian wrote in 1963, which had impressed me very Americans in the 1990s Obviously, you are well much at the time. I want to close by repeating it. aware of the multitude of issues that face my It is the end of that essay. He says, "If we, and community. However, I would like to focus on an now I mean the relatively conscious whites and issue that is not specifically addressed in that the relatively conscious blacks, who must, like report, but one, which the JACL believes is vital lovers, insist on or create the consciousness of to the understanding of civil rights and Asian the others, if we do not falter in our dutynow, Americans. we may be able, handful that we are, to end the With few exceptions, political leaders rou- racial nightmare and achieve our country and tinely fail to acknowledge Asian/Pacific Ameri- change the history of the world. If we do notnow cans as active participants in the civil rights dare everything, the fulfillment of that prophesy struggle. Failure to include us as integral play- recreated from the Bible in song by a slave, is ers in the process means that the rebuilding of upon us. God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no Los Angeles and other urban centers may ulti- more water, a fire next time. I believe our time is mately fail. The events of the last few weeks running out." serve only to illustrate that problem. On the day that the Rodney King verdict was heard, wesaw

188

194 a Japanese American man pulled from his car, pending before Congress, which are vitally im- one of the first victims of the riots. We saw hun- portant to the voting rights of many minority dreds of Korean Americans and other Asian Americans. The Commission has already taken a American families stand by as their businesses strong stand on the Voting Rights Improvement were looted and burned to the ground. Yet not Act, which provides for bilingual assistance. Be- one of the Asian/Pacific American civil rights cause 7 out of 10 in our Asian/Pacific American leaders was included in the emergency White communities consist of recent immigrants, the House meeting on the day after the violence bilingual voting assistance provisions are essen- began. That meeting, and the subsequent press tial to our ability to fully participate in the dem- conference which followed, presented a tremen- ocratic process. One fact that the recent events dous opportunity to convey to the Nation the in Los Angeles has taught us is that people who shared sense of outrage and concern of all of the have no stake in the system have nothing to lose communities that were affected by that tragic in resorting to violence as a means of calling day. It also would have sent a clear message to attention to their problems. It can be far more the American public that Asian/Pacific Ameri- costly not to reach out to those citizens who need cans are, indeed, a part of American society, and assistance to vote. that we must be included in the racial dialogue The Commission should also provide its sup- that is critical to the well-being of our nation. port to a bill recently introduced by Congress- This marginalization of Asian/Pacific Ameri- man Edwards to repair the damage done to the cans is illustrated by the current fate of several Voting Rights Act by the U.S. Supreme Court in bills now pending before Congress. The first bill its recent decision, Presley v. Etowah County is one that I am sure many of you are aware of. Commission. That case involved a third genera- It stems from the passage of the Civil Rights Act tion of efforts to attack political participation by of 1991. In the waning days before the passage, minority communities. After unsuccessfully try- one case stood out, and that was the Wards Cove ing to block election of black county officials, the Packing Company case, a case that involved over majority-white commission voted to change the 2,000Asian/PacificAmericansandNative system of funding allocationstoeffectively Alaskans. The two Senators from Alaska man- eliminate the authority of the newly elected aged to strike a deal which, although the bill black officials. The Justice Department had a was used to correct the Supreme Court decision longstanding policy requiring preclearance of in that case, excluded that case specifically from such actions, and the Supreme Court acknowl- coverage of the Civil Rights Act of 1991. edged that it usually deferred to agency inter- TheAsian/PacificAmericancommunity pretations, but in that case, refused to do so. around the country is outraged. It is an example Unfortunately, the Justice Department has since of how little regard our leaders have for our com- appeared to back down from its position taken munities. The bill that is currently pending be- before the Supreme Court. Local government fore both the House and the Senate seeks to should not be allowed to circumvent the goals of eliminate that special interest exclusion, but it the Voting Rights Act by removing authority languishes in Congress because, as I have been from political officials and depriving minority repeatedly told, Congress and the President are political officials of the ability to represent their sick of dealing with civil rights. And a deal is a constituents. Again, the experience in Los Ange- dealputting the interests of the Alaskan Sena- les is instructive. Political empowerment is an torsabove thecivilrightsof those2,000 important avenue to achieve a fair and just soci- Asian/Pacific American and Alaskan workers. ety. We urge the Commission to support this legisla- Finally, one of the bills pending before Con- tion and to speak out on such proposals that gress is an amendment to the Civil Liberties Act would seek to solve civil rights issues for this of 1989. That is the act that provided redress country while being discriminatory in and of to the over 120,000 Japanese Americans who themselves. were interned during World War II. The admin- Another area of recent attack is on the Voting istration supports the additional authorization Rights Act. Two significant bills are currently but wants to eliminate the education provisions

189 195 of that original act. In light of the events of this country, often the most likely targets of anti- past month, education on a national level, the Asian violence. Without vigilant community sur- story of the Japanese Americans and the Gov- veillance, many hate crimes do go unreported ernment's reaffirmation of constitutional princi- and unpunished. ples in adopting the Civil Liberties Act is ex- In conclusion, JACL would like to urge the tremelyimportant.Itwas becausepeople Commission to make specific legislative recom- remembered the World War II internment of mendations to address the issues raised by its Japanese Americans that American Arabs were recent report oncivilrightsissues facing not faced with the same deprivation of rights Asian/PacificAmericans,andtodetermine during the Gulf War. We believe that public within the next 12 months whether any of its understanding of Japanese American history recommendations are being implemented. As and the loyalty given to this country by my par- someone noted in one of the earlier sessions yes- ents and grandparents, even under the darkest terday, the act of convening these hearings was of circumstances, can also serve to ameliorate commendable, but what is now needed is action. the temptation to target us as scapegoats. Thank you. The number of incidents of anti-Asian vio- MS. BOOKER. Mr. Morris. lence which has occurred, even over the last 4 months of this year, is frightening. As disturbing Statement of Milton Morris, Vice President for as the murders, the bomb threats, the vandal- Research, Joint Center for Political and ism, the verbal attacks, are evidence that young Economic Studies school children are developing racist attitudes MR. MORRIS. Members of the Commission, I about the Japanese and, by extension,all am Milton Morris, the vice president for re- Asian/Pacific Americans. Recently, sixth grade search at the Joint Center for Political and Eco- students in a Los Angeles elementary school nomic Studies. I am very grateful for the oppor- were asked to draw their perceptions of the "Buy tunity to participate in this session, and I American" campaign. Drawings such as one congratulate you for this very timely series of child kicking a slant-eyed child and pictures hearings in which you are engaged, timely be- with captions saying, "Bomb, bomb the Japan- cause it comes about just when we are witness- ese" were produced. Education about ethnic di- ing some of the most fearful, threatening, and versity of this country must be provided to com- predicted indications of deep divisions in our bat racism. JACL believes that the education society. fund is essential in fulfilling the purpose of the In fact, I believe that as a society we are in a Civil Liberties Act. As Dennis Hayashi, the na- state of crisis, a crisis that goes well beyond the tional director of JACL, noted, "This country can events in Los Angeles, one that threatens to en- ill-afford to forget the importance of upholding velop the Nation in a manner that will make Los civil liberties during periods of national turmoil." Angeles seem trivial. The crisis results, it would Finally, I would like to turn to the issue of seem, from a number of factors, that can all be hate crimes. The Government must provide associated with and reflected through the racial tougher laws against hate crimes and insure and economic tensions that we can see and rec- thorough enforcement of existing laws. States ognize. This is not, we must concedeand it is are unwilling or unable to provide the necessary perhaps useful to view our situation in as broad resources to train policemen to properly identify a setting as possiblepurely a domestic prob- and respond to hate crimes. The Justice Depart- lem. In fact, as we look around the world, it is ment does not allocate sufficient resources to very clear that racial and ethnic conflict has pursue Federal prosecution. The Community Re- been, and remains, one of the world's most per- lations Service contends that it has neither the sistent challenges. mandate nor the resources to publicize the Hate We are witnessing today societies that have Crimes Hotline, or provide assistance to the vic- been enveloped inconflict over generations. tims who do call in. No bilingual assistance in Others, where conflicts were smothered for sev- Asian languages is available to the Asian Ameri- eral years by oppressive political regimes have can callers who have recently immigrated to this now erupted into bloody violence, tearing apart

190 196 sovereign countries. In our own society, we have conditions have not existed, we have degener- witnessed and will continue to witness, I submit, ated into hate, selfishness, and conflict, and that the deterioration of the fragile peace that has is essentially where we are. Los Angeles is really been in place over these last several years. This simply the most compelling recent indication of society is distinctive in some respects with re- that, but the political climate of the last few gard to racial and ethnic relations. It is distinc- years, and especially the last year and a half, tive in that it is one that claims adherence to a underscores that. We have seen, for the first set of values congenial to an inclusive racial and time, the rise to prominence of apostles of hate. ethnic community. They roseto prominence with considerable The Declaration of Independence, the Consti- public support. We have seen outcroppings of tution, the public lore, all convey the impression interethnic violence across the country from that we are a society of diverse peoples, and that New York to Los Angeles, indicating that de- we are proud of this diversity. In fact, it is one of prived people faced with limited opportunities those defining features of American society, we are looking distressed, disturbingly, sometimes are told. In recent years, we have managed to enviously at others who are, themselves, striving achieve a fragile peace after decades, genera- to make their way under constrained economic tions, in fact, of struggle for civil rights. We have circumstances. The events of this past week or had triumphs, and indeed, as we look across the two are merely the most recent indications of a world, we believe that there is much of which we continuing trend. can be proud, and there is much that we proba- What do we need to do, and how do we come bly can share with other societies. Yet we have to grips with these circumstances? Our diversity never come close to the ideals that we have es- is with us. Indeed, if we look at the most recent tablished for ourselves as a society. Over the census, we are rapidly increasing in our diver- past decade, at least, we have seen significant, sity. Second, we are still the rich opportunity so- disturbing retreat from the gains made and in- ciety that we have heard about and talked about deed, in many instances, we have seen a total over the years. What we need are, in my view, turning away from what appears to be that com- three things. One is a commitment to economic mitment to an inclusive society. opportunity and to economic justice. We have We have managed to separate civil rights talked about a decade of greed, a decade of self- from economic opportunity, and having granted ishness. We are, I think, clear about the widen- basic political rights and having removed basic ing of the gap between the rich and the poor, the discriminatory elements from our society, we widening of the gap in the quality of life between have for all practical purposes considered the job those who have been successful and made it, and complete. The problem is that economic opportu- those who have not. We have talked about and nity is an integral part of civil rights. It is, in seen evidence of the abandonment of the urban fact, an essential ingredient to racial and ethnic places where large segments of the economically peace. There are no indications that, in this soci- disadvantaged population fail. These are, and ety or elsewhere, racial harmony can coexist ought to be, the new frontiers for our activities alongside poverty, hopelessness, and a continu- over the next several years. ally deteriorating quality of life. What we have Second, we need a more inclusive conception created, especially in recent years, is an environ- of civil rights, one that embraces the full array of ment in which there are not just tensions be- our ethnic diversity. We are notas blacks, as tween the dominant white society and ethnic mi- Latinos, as Asiansdistinctive entities. We are norities, but we have created the conditions for all in the same environment, in the same con- interethnic strife. flict. We are all inextricably linked together with In thinking about the problem of racial and common aspirations, with common interests, ethnic tensions, it is important that we consider and with common needs. We need to define civil both dimensions of this picture. As a society, our rights in a way that unites, reunites, us rather history indicates that where there has been eco- than separates us or compartmentalizes us. nomic growth, economic opportunity, relative Third, we need leadership. If there is any sin- harmony and inclusiveness prevail. When these gle failing of the last several years, it has been

191 197 the absence of leadership that is committed to some kind of a context, looking at it in terms of the goal of a truly united society. We have found where we are today. it politically expedient to be divisive. We have One of the issues that I am big on is defini- found it politically expedient to focusour atten- tions. The word "minority" troubles me today. tion on those segments of the population which Just to cite a very specific example, I was read- represent attractive, political majority. We have, ing in the paper this morning that the 7-11 in the process, abandoned some things that are stores, which are small chain groceries, took precious, and that are vital to our society, that back the 7-11s in the Washington, D.C., area. It give it this sense of America as a diverse and yet said that these 7-11 stores were basically owned united society. It is this sense of leadership that by minorities. Well, what does that mean, ex- is vital to preserving that fragile peace that actly? I had to read the whole article to figure binds the various elements of the society to- out that they were talking about a group of gether. stores that were basically owned by Asian It is my hope that, as a Commission, you can Americans in black neighborhoods. The point I be vigorous advocates for effective leadership. am making is that we are talking about two dis- Thank you. tinct groups of people now. We are talking about Ms. BOOKER. Mr. Nunez. Asians. We are talking about blacks. We are talking about Hispanics, and we can talk about Statement of Louis Nuflez, President, Latinos, as some people refer to them, Cuban National Puerto Rican Coaltion Americans, Puerto Ricans, Mexican Americans. MR. NuSIEZ. Good afternoon. My name is All these people in our legislation, in our regula- Louis Nunez. I am certainly pleased to be here tions, in the way we perceive them, somehow we with all of you, and I recall when I used to sit up popularly think that they are all, in some re- there a good time ago, and in some ways, I am spects, similar in their problems and their ambi- honored, and I envy you all for the experiences tions. I question that. I really do. I really feel that you have had. that, as we begin to deal with the problems of I spent 9 years with the Civil Rights Commis- the enormously increasing diversity of our soci- sion, and that was one of the most educational ety, we have to begin to look at the specific and profound experiences in my life with the op- groupings in this country. portunity of traveling to every part of this coun- Then I make a further distinction between try, and dealing with all of the problems that our American citizensblacks, Puerto Ricans, Mexi- society confronts in a very serious way. It's good can Americans, Native Americanswho some- to be back, but it is also somewhat saddening to how have been here for generations, and some- me to come back and talk about the subject that how their experience isnot similar to the we have before us, the whole issue of racial and immigrant population of Europe. I cite all of the ethnic tensions in communities across the coun- immigrant experience that people came to this try. I would like to take a slightly different tack country with great dreams, they worked hard, than some of my colleagues here on the table and they moved up the ladder. That was in some and talk about the whole issue of diversity. respects true. It is not a myth. It happened to It might be viewed as an opportunity, but it is many people, and I am sure we all know people also a problematic aspect of our society, andsev- who will tell you that this happened to their eral of our speakers this afternoon have alluded families. We know, for a fact, that it did not hap- to the 1960s and what occurred thenthe riots pen to this group of American citizens who have in Watts, the disturbances, the enormous prolif- been here for generations and are still, basically, eration of civil rights legislation that emerged in as a group, at the bottom of the ladder. that period. It was truly the period of the Waron Then we talk about the newcomers. We are Poverty. It was a period when there was a feel- talking about the newcomers in the last 20 ing that we were on our way, and now we find years, the last generation. What we have seen is ourselves, 25 years later, saying, "We shouldn't an enormous proliferation of immigration from have lost the way, and we really are right back Latin America and from Asia. That has been where we were." I would like to talk about it in enormous, and it is coming into all of the cities

192 198 of America. These people are really grouped to- for any minority. It does not work. The schools gether into what I would characterize as three are failing. Crime is rampant. I am generalizing, categories of people. They are either documented but if you look at every major city in this coun- immigrants, undocumented immigrants, or refu- try, drugs are out of control, jobs are scarce in gees. All these folks have different aspirations, the ghettos, the infrastructures are collapsing. different reasons for coming here, and they en- This is common to every major city, and I ask counter different experiences. We have to see you, and I ask myself, "How do we expect a that as we develop public policies, and some- healthy society?" "How do we expect people to times we don't. We tend to group all these people get along in that kind of milieu, all of these folks in terms of our regulations, in terms of our pub- living in these societies?" I have not been to Los lic policies, as if they were one group, and they Angeles, but in the riot-torn areas that we look were all striving to the same goal and the same at, we talk about the liquor stores, we talk about mission. the small stores, we look at all of these areas. All Refugees generally are people who come from of these areas, in every major city, they exist. the top strata of their societythe Cuban im- They are essentially "no-man lands," and people migration, the Hungarian immigration. Some of are struggling to live in those areas, but they are the Vietnamese that came right after the end of not making it. They are barely making it, and the war were the whole top strata of Vietnam frankly, the national government has basically brought here as a result of the war. We are get- ignored or downplayed the plight of the cities. ting people from Hong Kongwho are very dif- That is an issue that we are all aware of. The ferent from other folks who are coming from cities today are basically bankrupt. Every major poorer regionspeople who come with capital, city in this country, every mayor of any major who come with resources. You get other people city will tell you that they do not have the re- who come with no resources in all of these sources to deal with the enormous array of prob- groups, who immediately fall to the bottom of lems they confront. the ladder. These are differences that we have to One other element the Rodney King incident see. I sometimes think that my colleagues who brought out isand it has been alluded tothe have come out of the civil rights movement have sense of fairness. People at the bottom feel that not internalized the reality. We see it here, and we live in an unfair society. You talk to people in we see it everywherethat we can no longer every community. They think the police are prej- talk as if there were one minority, and then udiced, discriminatory, which they are in gen- there is a dominant white community astride eral. We talk about the Community Reinvest- this. ment Actthey can't get loans, they can't get This has never been true, by the way, but it is jobs. Our society, our government institutions less true today than it has ever been. I think have to begin to redress this kind of enormous that we have to begin to see that whole dynamic imbalance in the sense that people do not feel of minorities, of newcomers, how the olderand that we, as a society, are fair. In some respects, for want of another word, the protected classes the 1960s were much more positive about this in how they perceive the newcomers to our society. that people knew that things were bad, but they You see it in Miami. You see it in New York. You had the sense that they were improving. You saw see it in Los Angeles. You see it in Chicago. You this whole proliferation of the laws. You saw the see the same complaints, and as you go around many programs that emerged out of the 1960s. the country, you'll hear it that, "We've been here One might argue that all of them didn't work, for generations, and these other people come, and some people might argue in a kind of crazy and immediately they are ahead of us." That is a way that none of them worked, but a lot changed common complaint of the people at the bottom of in that period. All of us who experienced that all of these communities. period can testify to this. Another point in this area is that there is a We are now in a period where the large cities stagnation in all of these cities. All of you, I am of America are in an economic stagnation. I am sure, have traveled across the country. Urban sure you all read the report or read about it America does not work for us. It does not work how the Congressional Budget Office compared

193 199 incomes and pointed out that over the last 18 were 12 years ago. Why have police departments years, I believe, that the bottom 20 percent ofin this country not adopted a uniform code of our population had lost, in terms of real income, behavior in dealing with the populations they 9 percent of their real income. The next 20 per- serve? We know what they have to do. We know cent had lost about 1 percent, which is to say what kind of training they have to have, but it that the bottom 40 percent of our total society doesn't happen. I think you might want to look and that brings us into the lower middle class at some of the reports that have been done be- which has made no economic progress. We are cause a lot of these areas have been explored in not talking about blacks. We are not talking the past. Thank you. about Puerto Ricans. We are talking about ev- MS. BOOKER. Dr. Sue. erybody. We are talking about everybody in that segment of society, who has either fallen back or Statement of Stanley Sue, M.D., Professor of stood still. The top 1 percent gained a 67 percent Psychology, UCLA increase in their income in a 15-year period. DR. SUE. Thank you. I am Stanley Sue, and I That is a reality. appreciate this opportunity to appear before the People out there see the unfairness of our so- Commission. By way of background, I am a psy- ciety. People at the bottom see that this society chology professor at UCLA and have spent most is not fair to them. They are not getting any- of my career studying mental health, Asian where. How do we deal with this? They are not American mental health issues, and race rela- dealing with the top. They are dealing with each tions. Because of the limited time, and the fact other. It is unfortunate that you see the rivalries that I am the last speaker, I want to really focus arising, the animosities arising, the tensions at on Asian Americans, and essentially make three the neighborhood levelthe Korean small busi- points. ness dealer in New York, the Dominican dealer First, Asian Americans have been widely mis- in the Bronx. It is now increasingly becoming understood and ignored as indicated by our pre- Indians from India who are opening stores. You vious speaker representing the JACL. Secondly, see different groups, but the groups are, I think, the misunderstandings have increased ethnic in a competition for the bottom. tensions, frustrations, and concerns, and have We must awaken some kind of feeling that misguided our policies and programs. I will try this has to change, that we have to break out ofto illustrate that in our mental health system this economic stagnation that we are in. The bot- and educational system. Third, there are means tom part of this country, the bottom halfand I that we can use to alleviate some of these prob- hate to use the middle class or lower class, but lems. That there are misunderstandings and ste- the lower income peopleof this country are reotypes of Asian Americans is becoming in- more and more feeling that this is not a fair creasingly evident. The Japan-bashing that we society. The ideas of upward mobility are less see has resulted in anger, hostility, and stereo- today than they were a generation ago, and I types toward Asian Americans in general, and think we, as a society, have to come to grips with Japanese Americans in particular, even though, this. We have to develop policies that are also I would say, most Asian Americans do not sup- fully aware of the fact that we are becoming in- port the policies and practices of Japanese in creasingly different kinds of people with differ- Japan. As you know, Vincent Chin was a ent needs and different concerns. I don't see in Chinese American who was mistakenly identi- any of the urban policies presented at the na- fied as a Japanese American and was beaten to tional or the local level anything of the sort. death because of the hostility toward Japan on I go back to the issue of fairness, and I remind the part of a Detroit auto worker. you, Commissioners and Staff Director, that in Finally, in the recent violence that we have 1981, this Commission issued a report on the discussed after the Rodney King verdict in Los use of police force. We did hearings in Philadel- Angeles, the popular media portrayed the events phia, Miami, and in Houston. The recommenda- as largely a black-white affair. In reality, Korean tions in those reports on how police have to deal Americans suffered half of all of the 'property with communities are equally true today as they damage that occurred in Los Angeles. Law

194 200 enforcement was particularly lax in protecting have alternative services to handle stressors. Korean businesses. It indicates that our racial But the most important reason for the problems and ethnic issues really involve all racial and that we see is the inability of the mental health ethnic groups, including Asian Americans. These system to really provide for Asian Americans. I events have raised increasing concerns among want to give one example. Asian Americans and have resulted in ethnic Years ago the Seattle Times newspaper re- tensions. ported on a case in Illinois and just to quote this: Let me turn to concerns of Asian Americans in "The Cook County Public Guardian, Patrick T. two of our institutions, the mental health system Murphy, filed a $5 million suit against the and the educational system. Now, it may seem Illinois Director of Mental Health and its prede- strange to discuss the two because Asian Ameri- cessors, charging that they kept a Chinese immi- cans are popularly believed to be well-adjusted, grant in custody for 27 years, mainly because to come from intact families, and to be high the man could not speak English. The Federal achieving. But if we look more closely, we see court suit charged that the Illinois Department some institutional failures that raise issues of of Mental Health had never treated the patient accessibility, responsiveness, and fairness. Re- for any mental disorder and had found a search over the past two decades has shown that Chinese-speaking psychologist to talk to him relatively few Asian Americans use mental only after 25 years. The suit said that David, health services. The low utilization, which we who was in his fifties, was put in Oak Forest found nationwide, has unfortunately reinforced Hospital, then known as Oak Forest Tuberculo- the view that Asian Americans do not need or sis Hospital. He was transferred to a State men- want mental health services. Nothing could be tal hospital where doctors conceded that they further from the truth. could not give him a mental exam because he We know that Asian Americans encounter spoke little English, but they diagnosed him as stresses caused by cultural conflicts, immigrant psychotic anyway. The suit said that a doctor background, and encounters with prejudice and who spoke no Chinese said that David answered discrimination. In fact, studies have shown that questions in an incoherent and unintelligible one group, Southeast Asians, particularly Cam- manner. It was charged that David was quiet bodians and Laotians, have the highest rate of and caused little trouble, but was placed in re- mental disorders in the United States. They straints sometimes because he would wander to primarilysuffer from depression and post- a nearby ward that housed the only other Chi- traumatic stress disorder. Another fact is that nese-speaking patient." those Asian Americans who use services tend to This is a dramatic but not unusual case. If we have very serious mental health problems. They go to many cities, we'll see that services for have higher disturbance levels than African Asian Americans are virtually nonexistent or in- Americans, American Indians,Latinos, and adequate. Some may ask, "If Asian Americans do white clients. The most parsimonious explana- not use services, why should we worry about tion for this finding is that Asian Americans do this?" Or, "If Asian Americans find services un- not enter the mental health system until they helpful, perhaps they shouldn't use them." But are very seriously disturbed. This, in turn, this misses the point, which is that Asian Ameri- means that those with milder problems are not cans pay taxes and fees for services, and our benefiting from the mental health system. Obvi- mental health system should provide an oppor- ously,the underutilizationisinfluenced by tunity for all Americans to truly benefit from shame and stigma that is felt by many Asian services. To me, this is a civil rights issue. I Americans. Indeed, allof us,Ithink, most think what we need here is greater attention to groups have shame and stigma over having the needs of Asian Americans, including bilin- mental health problems, but it affects Asian gual bicultural personnel in our mental health Americans in particular because their culture is profession, greater training. Our research has a face culture, where loss of face, particularly in shown that if we engage in these programs, having mental health problems, is of concern. there may be some very important benefits to We also know that different cultural groups may clients.

195 201 The second concern I would like to address is and this is commendable. However, if colleges our educational system. Again, it may seem and universities place a heavier emphasis on ironic to focus on the educational system, since verbal skills as the criterion for admissions, we Asian Americans have high educational attain- will have fewer Asian Americans admitted, and ments, particularly if we look at the proportion the students admitted will perform less well of college graduates. We have to temper this than those admitted before the great emphasis with the fact that Asian Americans have a high on verbal skills. In other words, colleges and uni- rate of those who have no education whatsoever. versities that weigh English verbal skills more In fact, this rate is higher than whites, and some heavily in admissions will have a detrimental Asian groups are not faring well compared to impact on Asian Americans who may be superior other Asian groups. But the concern I want to students but who fail to achieve English perfor- express, that many Asian Americans have ex- mances that are associated with native speak- pressed, is that there are increasing attempts to ers. The issue is not to be confused with the limit Asian American enrollments through the necessity to learn English. Everyone agrees that use of certain criteria that place Asian Ameri- English skills are necessary to function in soci- cans at a disadvantage in admissions to univer- ety. The issue is whether the use of a bad predic- sities and colleges. tor, that places Asian Americans at a disadvan- Asian Americans have brought this issue to tage, is going to be used. Here, I think, is the the Education Secretary, and it has been pre- civil rights issue. sented in popular magazines such as Newsweek In closing, we would, of course, like to do far and Time. I want to report on some of our think- more research on predictors of academic achieve- ing on this and some of our work. Admissions to ment and mental health, and to see the effects of universities largely depend on high school grade these predictors over a long term. But what we point averages, SAT test scores and other really need, and I have given just two exam- achievement test scores, letters of recommenda- plesthe mental health example and the educations, and extracurricular activities. Among the tion problemsis more accurate information on most important criteria are high school GPAs who are Asian Americans and what are the real and SATs. In a study sponsored by the College critical issues facing the Asian American com- Board, I and a colleague examined to what ex- munity. I would like to pose these questions in tent high school grade point averages and SAT closing: Why can't we seizeleadershipin scores of Asian and white students predict sub- a multiethnic society? We know that our ethnic sequent academic performance at universities. relations and ethnic problems are probably not The results were quite surprising. If we look at worse than those that we see in Eastern Europe, the SAT scores, which can be divided into the where ethnic groups are fighting and killing math or English verbal subtest, there are some each other very directly. But we also have a marked ethnic differences. Knowing the verbal model just north of us, and that is Canada, score, rather than the math score, meaningfully where there is an official policy of multicultural- predicted university grades for whites. However, ism. Why can't we, as Mr. Nunez said, build on for Asian Americans the opposite was true. the strengths of multiculturalism? Math, rather than verbal scores, predicted uni- In closing, I would like to turn to a quote from versity grades. The superiority of math as a pre- Hodgkinson, who said that, "In the future, we dictor for Asians was evident for American-born should work together, not because of liberalism, as well as foreign-born Asians, and for those ma- obligation, guilt and the other kind of baggage joring in nonscience as well as science fields. In that we have, but, rather it is in our own inter- other words, verbal performance adds very little est to be able to work with different groups." I to the selection of good students among Asians. hope that in this effort, that Asian Americans Now, we don't know why, but it is a very inter- and some of their concerns can be fully consid- esting finding. ered. Thank you. The College Board is planning to improve En- VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. Thank you. That glish verbal testing, including essays and real- concludes the formal presentation by the panel. I ism, more realistic test items in its procedures, would like to open the floor for exchanges and

196 202 dialogues. Why don't we start with Commis- things so you should know that we did pass a sioner Berry. resolution today concerning that point. COMMISSIONER BERRY. I have two questions. The other question I wanted to ask was to First of all,I wanted to ask Ms. Narasaki Louis Nunez. Mr. Nunez, when you were talking Karen, you were talking about the meeting at you said something about people in low income the White House after the Los Angeles riot or communities or people in these cities around the rebellion or whatever or Rodney King verdict country. We would find when we go there, those and about how there were not any Asian Ameri- that are on the low end economically say, things cans invited. What I wanted to know wasI unlike, "Immigrants come in, and they just simply derstood from some other testimony we had that walk right over us. They move ahead, and we're Latinos were not invited either, and that some- left behind." I've forgotten the phraseology, but body invited himselfI don't know who it was that was the idea. Well, are they wrong? I mean and ended up being part of the group. I also is that, in fact, what has happened or not? know that on another day during that same se- MR. NUNEZ. I think that there is some reality ries of meetings, the leadership from the House to that perception, and I recall, Commissioner and the Senate went over there, and there was Berry, in a hearing we had in Miami in the early nobody from Watts or south central Los Angeles 1980s that was a constant comment of some of at all. Maxine Waters went over and insisted the African Americans, that Cubans had come, that she be included. What I wanted to know, who were basically a refugee population, with an only partly tongue-in-cheek, is, was it because enormous amount of educational or entrepre- Asian Americans are a' model minority that no neurial skills, and had moved into Miami and one went over and insisted that you be included? had basically prospered. There was a lot of re- Ms. NARASAKI. Actually, I talked to one of the sentment in that community. I think that is a White House staff persons, and the explanation I very specific example of that. But I think that is was given was, they thought about it,but a reality that people in these depressed areas, that they thought it would further inflame racial these central city areas, that exist in every large tensions to include Asian Americans at that city in America. meeting because it was really a black-white You do have a community that has essentially problem. That is one of the concerns I have been left behind. Suddenly, you have a whole that we see the media playing it up as a black- new group of newcomers who are either from white problemyou are absolutely correct. It is Latin America or from Asia, who are coming who not a black-white problem. It is not a black- are perhaps moreand it's a sad commentary on white-Asian problem. It is a black-white-brown- societybut they have more faith in the Ameri- yellow everything problem. It is the problem can dream than people who have been here two that we have with the economic system and or three generations, whose whole experience in what is happening in all of our cities. our society has been one of failure. COMMISSIONER BERRY. What I was wondering I want to make another distinction. We are is, why didn't somebody from the Asian Ameri- really talking about another phenomenon in our can community go over and insist on being in- society, the fact that the traditional minorities cluded just as the Latinos did and just as Max- blacks, Mexican Americans, Puerto Ricansare ine did? essentially dividing up between people who are Ms. NARASAKI. We did. We sent letters that making it into the economic mainstream of our were ignored. We had a press conference that society and people who have been left behind. I was ignored. We sent press releases that were think a lot of the social commentators are begin- ignored. It was not for lack of trying. ning to note that people who are being left be- COMMISSIONER BERRY. Okay. The other thing hind in all of these neighborhoods, who have not is I think earlier today we passed a resolution on moved on, are the people who confront or have to one of the subjects that you mentioned in your deal with the newcomers to our society, and un- testimony about the reparations for the World fortunately, that experience has not been a posi- War II internees. I think that was on your list of tive one for both groups.

197 203 COMMISSIONER BERRY. My only point is that, see that there can be a brighter day for them. Or if the perception on the part of the people that do we do something else, which has been sug- you say have been left behind is that they have gested by some people, which is to simply see to been left behind and that others come in, spend it that immigrants do not come to communities time, and move on, then that perception is accu- like that to use them as a way station, and per- rate, if I understand you correctly. Their percep- haps are in other communities where there are tion of what is happening to them is accurate. not people who feel that they have been left MR. NUNEZ. Yes. I think in general that is behind. I guess my only point was that when you true as far as it goes, actually, that immigrant said that it was their perception, that probably populations come in, sort of put their time in at what they are perceiving is correct. the bottom, and then move up. MR. NUNEZ. I would agree with you, Commis- COMMISSIONER BERRY. Right, so that it is not sioner. that they somehow lack perception. The question DR. SUE. Commissioner, can I respond to is what does one do? Their perception is accu- that? Our studies support that. It is not only a rate. perception; there is a difference. Look at the self- MR. NUNEZ. There is truth to that. There is identity of those ethnics who are bern in the truth to that. They are stuck. We are looking at United States when you are talking about iden- the issue of the persistence of poverty that peo- tity problems. They don't occur" with those who ple of several generations do not move on from come from overseas. They occur from those who one generation to another. I am not making it are American born because they have a mental- racial. I am stating it as a reality for a signifi- ity as a minority group person. The overseas cant portion of the black community, the Puerto person, many times, does not develop that men- Rican community, the Mexican American com- tality. They come here in order to escape from munitywe are looking at this in generations their own very bad conditions. Things can only and there is no evidence that they are moving go up for them. I think that there is a perception up. I am not stating that as true for everyone, and a problem between immigrants and those but for the people who are left behind in these who are American born. older, decaying communities, they see a reality We find the kinds of solutions that may be of these neighborhoods being a way station for a very beneficial is to bring those who are overseas lot of people on their way up, and they see no into the fold, for them to really realize that when way up for themselves. they come here not only for economic opportuni- COMMISSIONER BERRY. Right. Then if that is ties, but as citizens, that there are issues that the case, then I guess the issue is not to they have in common with those who have been challenge their perception, since it seems to ac- here many years, including issues concerning cord with the reality that they see around ethnicity, ethnic tensions. They can't be insu- themalthough it is not exactly true because lated from those kinds of things through their there are always a few people who move up any- own achievement. I think that we have seen way, even from people who are considered to be many overseas-born ethnics who when they thrown awayso then the question becomes, come back into that fold start helping the ethnic "How do you alleviate tensions between people communities. That is a very viable kind of solu- who are, indeed, being left behind and people tion. If they maintain a very distant, separate who are, indeed, there as a way station?" That is relationship, almost looking at the American one way to frame the question if that is where born as being inferior, then we have some major the tensions are. problems. Then, I guess one argument would be to ex- COMMISSIONER BERRY. We have, of course, not plain to those who are left behind that they are just a black-Asian-Latino or something intereth- really not left behind. But they see that they are, nic tension, but tension within groups, them- so that doesn't work very well. Then the ques- selves. For example, in the Mexican community tion becomes how do we, in our interest of allevi- there seem to be tensions between those who are ating tensions, then focus on what to do about newcomers, whether they are undocumented those who are left behind in order to make them workers or not, and people who have been here

198 204 for a long time. Some of them even argue that for example, the traditional Mexican American there isn't any discrimination problem in the neighborhoods like east Los Angeles did not Latino community. It is just simply a question of, have these disturbances like the south central if you have been here, you are assimilated, and portion of Los Angeles where the new Latino im- these other folks need to get on with the busi- migrants live. What was the difference there? ness of assimilating themselves. You find this The role of the police, the role of black gangs, within ethnic groups as well as going across Latino gangs, which is a very major factor in the groups. Los Angeles area. I think the whole reporting on The other point is, and I don't know who men- the disturbances was, frankly, so simplistic, see- tioned this, but somebody when they were talking it as merely an uprising of blacks and maybe ing about what had happened to the Korean picking on Korean merchants. businesses in Los Angeles, mentioned the prob- That is the overall impression. The enormous lems between blacks and Koreans in Los Ange- complexity of the issues, the relationships of the les. Am I to infer from that that the businesses police, which seem to be atrocious in Los Angeles that were destroyed that belonged to Koreans with all of the different groups, the growth of were destroyed by blacks? Was that the infer- these gangs in this area. I saw a vignette on ence I was to draw? television where there was a black gang leader DR. SUE. We really don't know. The inference talking about the police who said, "That gang did is that there are black-Korean tensions that re- us wrong, and we are going to get them." They sulted in this, and I can't help but believe that see the police as another gang. They don't see some of it, of course, was due to that tension. them as the authority figure in this society. I But the situation in Los Angeles is due to many, don't see evidence that anybody is exploring the many different factors, not just Korean-black many factors that have led to the disturbances, tensions, black-white tensions. There were ten- that in depth, in looking at that led, to the dis- sions over humiliations that occurred for a long turbances in Los Angeles. It comes across as sort time, that people were just seething. In fact, the of a throwback to the 1960s. It's amazing how majority of arrests, I think, were against Latinos many people talk about Watts, and in my mind, who were rioting. It was just everything kind of Watts was a completely different situation than came to a head. It is hard just to say that it is a what occurred in Los Angeles last month. particular ethnic group against another ethnic COMMISSIONER BERRY. I have just two more group. I think it is far more complex than that. questions, the first to Dr. Sue, some questions But there is no question that the Korean-black about your comments on the admissions, the situation is not good, and we need to intervene university admissions issue and the use of SAT right away to head that off. There is no question, verbals and their lack of predictability for Asian also, that because of the history of racism in this American students. Isn't it the case that SATs country, it often pits one group against another. I are not valid predictors of performance in higher think another speaker addressed that issue. education institutions in any case? Where did we COMMISSIONER BERRY. But we don't know get the idea that they were valid predictors? I that the Korean businesses were, in fact, de- used to be on the Advisory Committee of the Ed- stroyed entirely by blacks? ucation Testing Service, and I remember the guy DR. SUE. No, we don't, and I would assume who runs that place, and our committee, saying not. that SAT scores should not be used by admis- COMMISSIONER BERRY. We also don't know sions officers to determine admissions because that the Latinos who were arrestedthe 51 per- they did not have predictive value, that what we cent of the arreststhat they were all arrested should do is use letters and high school grades. I for rioting either. Some of them were arrested am aware that people don't do what we said, but for curfew violations and various other things. I am just wondering before we get to the issue of MR. NLTNEZ. Commissioner Berry, when we whether verbals predict accurately or more accu- make these distinctionswhether we want to rately than math, where did we get the idea that call it a riot or disturbancereally calls out for SATs ought to be used to determine who gets some careful analysis. I have heard it said that, into higher education anyway?

199 205 DR. SUE. A very interesting point, but most that for Hispanic and African American students universities do use SATs. especially, you could not predict how well they COMMISSIONER BERRY. Yes, I know they do. would do in graduate school based on what their DR. SUE. What we did was we studied the UC GREs were, and that a point of fact, if you took system. The best predictor of subsequent perfor- students who had good undergraduate grades mance is high school grades. If you do well in and strong lettersof recommendation, they high school, you'll do well in college. The SAT would successfully complete Ph.Ds. That study does add to that prediction, but it is interesting has had absolutely no impact on what the col- that it adds in different ways for different leges and universities do, but the data is out groups. I think the concern of Asian Americans there. is that if we use a uniform formulaespecially Your point is, then, that it is too difficult, one that emphasizes the verbal component ofprobably, to try to keep them from using these SATs, that it is going to have a detrimental im- scores, so that if they do, we should, at least, get pact on Asian Americans. But you are right that them to use that. Don't you think that the use of SATs are not as strong a predictor as high school test scores of this kindstandardized testsin- grades, but they do add something to it, and that fers that if they were not used as barriers, per- is the current practice. Most universities will use haps something else would be, and that the fun- high school grades and SATs. damental question is trying to sort out who gets COMMISSIONER BERRY. I realize it is the prac- opportunity? That is a source of tension and not tice, but it seems to me, that if it's a civil rightsjust that this particular device happens to be issue if they use verbals instead of mathematics, used. Don't you think it is possible to imagine wouldn't it also be a civil rights issue that they other devices? would even be using SATs to determine who gets DR. SUE. That is correct, and people have said admitted somewhere when it has already been if you don't use test scores, then you'll rely on demonstrated that high school grades and rec- the bias of teachers in recommending individu- ommendations are much better predictors for als. I think it is a very dynamic situation where figuring out how you are going to do once you get we need constant research, to drop the myths in? I am just wondering why you didn't first at- that we have about the magic of testing or the tack the idea of using them at all, and then say- magic of personal opinion. But you are correct; ing, "If you insist on using them, then you cer- we really need to examine all of these predictors. tainlyshouldnot useverbalsinsteadof COMMISSIONER Berry. My last question was to mathematics." Dr. Morris, vice president of the joint center. In DR. SUE. That's correct. I am attacking it pri- talking about what we need to do economically, marily because it is a practice, and I am worried we have had two or three panels where people about that practice. But that's right, there are have discussed economic issues as they relate to other kinds of very major issues about whether tensions. We have had one scenario which indi- the SATs should be used as a predictor at all or cates that not much is wrong with the economy whether college grades are the ultimate criterion anyway, if I may characterize it that way. An- that you want to predict. I mean there are things other scenario is that there is a lot wrong in the beyond getting grades in universities, success in economy that needs to be fixed. careers, etc., that we know may have very little The not-wrong school cites such things as the relationship with even college grades. manufacturing base in the country is strong. We COMMISSIONER BERRY. Yes. We know also, by may have some problems with who is unem- the way, and you are probably familiar with this, ployed and who isn't, that even if you look and that LSATs and GREs are not the most valid talk about a recession now, it is nothing like predictors for determining how well one does in even the 1982 recession, that on all the kinds of graduate school or law school. I mention these measures that we look at, those people who because they are sources of tension which is worry and say we need to do something in eco- what we are discussing, and yet there is a lot of nomic policy are wrong to worry because things misunderstanding about these things. A big Ford are going along fine. All we need to do is some Foundation study, longitudinal study, indicated more of what we are doing right now, and

200 206 eventually, those people we are concerned about VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. If I can ask Mr. will be helped, and all we need to do is explain it Glasser, when you talk about the lackof to them. Do you have any views about economic sufficient commitment, about the leadership, it policy as it might relate to solving this problem reminds me about political systems. We have a of racial tensions? way of remedying that every so often through MR. MORRIS. I happen to believe that eco- elections or whatever. When we talk about our nomic problems are the single most important corporate leadership, there's very little, it seems issue driving racial tension, and that is where to me, that we could really do. That particular the solution has to begin. I don't share the view sector, I find in many ways, even much more that nothing is wrong with the economy. I think crucial in shaping the whole direction, and many we have to be attentive to two kinds of things. times they are not in the realm of reach. One is change. It is true that the industrial sec- They don't participate in the debate, and we tor has strengthened substantially and is a vital seem to be at a loss, particularly with our corpo- sector now, but that industrial sector has relo- rate leadership. Would you care to comment on cated. Two, the content of that industrial sector that, and how we can break that particular, shall has changed. When Isay the content has we say, barrier, so as to really bring them into changed, I mean that some of the heavy industry the fold of discussion? I think they employ much that for a long time employed large segments more large numbers of people. Their impact is of what we characterize as the blue-collar, far more than just the public sector. working-class population really disappeared and MR. GLASSER. Well, my experience is that in disappeared for good. In other cases, efficiencies the last decade or so and certainly in the last few in production have drastically reduced the man- years, with the sorts of problems that I described power demand. Therefore, there are large num- and that the ACLU as an organization tries to bers of people who, at an earlier phase in our work on, we have found much more responsive- economic experience, would have been gainfully ness in leadership in the corporate sector, at employed and are now without those opportuni- least certain segments of it, than in the political ties. The economy has not made viable alterna- sector. Part of the problem that you have here in tives available for that segment of the working terms of leadership is that nobody votes any- population, so that is a significant kind of more, particularly in those segments of the com- change. In addition to that, and maybe some- munity that are the chief and disproportionate what related to that, the statistics we've seen victims of the sorts of phenomenon I was de- over the disparities in income are driven by sev- scribing. There are lots of reasons why that is eral factors. true. Some of it has to do with very obstructive One of them has to do with change in the voter registration requirements. character of available jobs. In many of the cen- There is a bill that you probably know about tral cities, not only are there fewer jobs, but and want to get behind in Congress right now to there are jobs that pay significantly less than make voter registration much easier, the so- the jobs they now replace. What has, therefore, called "Motor-Voter." It is threatened with a happened is, instead of a steady increment of veto. That is one problem, but a deeper problem gain in a factory environment, many of these is that I believe that a lot of people don't vote people are in marginal or service environments because they have long ago given up any notion in which the wage structure is low, in which the that change in the conditions of their lives can wage structure moves very slowly or not at all. come through politics or through the ballot box. Therefore, you do have a widening income gap, That is a problem of leadership. When I say that so those are significant problems. What is note- I find more responsiveness in the corporations, worthy is that, by and large, we have focused on let me give you a concrete example. the issue of making us, as an economy, competi- I mentioned that grave disparity in what we tive. We have not focused on how we adjust in- like to call educational inequity. I used the Ala- ternally to the changes we've had to make. That, bama schools as an example, but similar stuff I think, is something that I think we need to exists in Louisiana and all over the country, but consider. more dramatically in the Southeast. It is very

201 207 difficult to get government or Congress or Fed- can't go to the political leaders in these States eral law to do anything about that. We have had andtalkaboutthesedeepeducational to utilize State constitutional provisions and go inequities, but you can go to some of the corpo- State by State on the basis of State law trying in rate leaders, who are beginning to see some eco- State courts to get the State to live up to its own nomic stake in their own marketplaces. If they standards. The most responsive segments of the don't see that, then they are not going to be very community to those lawsuits, which fund the interested either. lawsuits, support the lawsuits, do studies for it, Consider that the one major thrust in that are corporate leadership. The reason, when you area of educational equity that has been put ask them whysince it is sometimes surprising forth in Congress and by the administration is to find them in the same room and on the same the issue of free choice and setting up competi- side of the table as the ACLU, some peopletion through an educational voucher plan. It would think these are not people whose politics sounds wonderful, but it is the product of ideol- would lead you to find them in the front ranks of ogy, I think, and not analysisan ideology that the civil rights movementit is beyond civil is committed, regardless, to the notion that if rights for them. They are doing business in a you have a marketplace, then things will work region of the country where large proportions ofout. Well, it hasn't worked out in any other area the population are disabled from being consum- of life, and I'm not sure why it would work out ers, are disabled from being employees, are dis- here, but what that bill would do, it would not abled from being part of the commercial market say to people, "Look, you don't like that school structure. that spends $165 a year on your kid, and it has They are beginning to see, much of corporate no bathrooms and no libraries and broken win- leadership, what I referred to earlier as the self- dows. He doesn't have to go there. We will give interest in equality. That kind of leadership, we you money directly. Go find the best private need to have more of it, but to suggest that that school you can. Send us the bill." kind of leadership is sufficient, that government Now, you know that is not what the legisla- can continue with what I call the ideology of mation says. That would be one thing. I would be lign neglectyou know, first we had benign ne- prepared to try that as a pilot project. Nobody is glect, now we have malevolent neglect, the no- writing that blank check. What they are going to tionthat somehow government can't be a do is they are going to put in a bill which gives positive force, that it is a negative force if it tries some fixed amount, $1,000, $800, maybe $2,000. to be a positive force. There is not going to be I don't know how many of you send your kids to any way to even activate that private leadership private school, but you know enough to know if we rely on it itself. I must say, I find it much that a good private school is not going to cost easier to talk about these problems with corpo- $800 or $1,000 or $2,000 a year. Most good pri- rate leaders than with political leaders these vate schools are going to cost $5,000 or $6,000 or days. more, particularly in cities. Well, if you can't VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. The previous panel come up with the other $4,000, the $1,000 or talked about banking, the Community Reinvest- $2,000 doesn't do you any good. Who gets the ment Act. We find that the private sector is just $1,000 or $2,000? The people who can come up not there. with the other $4,000. What happens then? You MR. GLASSER. Oh, yes. That's why I say it is skim off another thin top layer of the people who not sufficient. It will vary from problem to prob- are in the public schools. They go off, and those lem, from corporation to corporation. You cannot who are left behind are mired more deeply and rely on that sort of randomness. When I say that more hopelessly in schools that deteriorate even I find more responsiveness in the corporate com- faster, that good teachers flee. Then the schools, munity than I do in the political community, that themselves, are further impoverished for the is a measure of what I regard as an abject fail- lack of a budget, written in the lack of political ure of political leadership. There isn't that much leadership. These can", be a remedy to that edu- leadership in the corporate community, but there cational inequity, but that is all we are hearing is more of ityou find more responsiveness. You about, and I don't think it is real.

202 208 COMMISSIONER BERRY. We had a discussion particularly, is going to have a different attitude about vouchers earlier today. My understanding toward the rising costs of vouchers. It is hard for is that in the program in Milwaukee which was me to see how the rebellion over medicaid issues discussed, the State puts in $2,500, and local is not going to be the same. people put in more money so they can come up I don't see where the money and the commit- with that $5,000. Right now, it is a pilot pro- ment is going to come from. Moreover, nobody is gram, but it is supposed to expand. The argu- yet suggesting that, as a consequence of accept- ment that the panel has made is that the schools ing public money, these private schools are going are so badif I can repeat it properlyand the to be subject to public legal standards that relate bureaucracy is so entrenched, that it will take to who they get to accept. You know, public time to change this, and we need to do some- schools are worse than private schools for a real thing. We have to have a transition, so there simple reasonthey don't get to choose their may be transitional problems over time of the students. If you choose your students right, you sort you talked about, but the ultimate result are bound to have success. That's a little bit of a will be to transform the schools. cynical view. The fact of the matter is that we Everyone acknowledges that we have major have a foster care system in New York City, problems with the schools now, so this is sort of which functions exactly like that, through a sys- holding out hope. My colleague, Commissioner tem of public vouchers. But the private institu- Redenbaugh, who supports this idea, says to me tions were allowed, even though 80 to 100 per- also that of course what will happen is that the cent of their budgets came through public money schools that are in existence will be positively through this kind of a system, to retain the fic- affected by the fact that there are vouchers for tion that they were private foster care agencies, people to go to other schools. It will make them and were allowed to pick and choose who they improve so that they will be competitive, and so accepted and who they didn't. therefore, it will rebound to the benefit of every- Guess what? That system was under litiga- one 'over time. tion for 20 years because of gross discrimination The panelist today, Professor Peterson from on the basis of both religion and race. Nobody is Harvard, his point, too, was that it is like the yet talking about the fiction that when you give Soviet Union where you make a transition to a the money to parents, and the parents give the free economy. It takes time. I just wonder if you money to the schools, the money isn't public think that given the enormity of the problem, anymore. There are church-State problems, as you could argue that it is worth the risk that the you know, that relate to that. But, if you don't other schools will improve and that you will help impose on the private schools the obligation to some people in the short run, and that that is take the students who need their help the most, why people are supporting these programs? they won't take those students. I find it hard to MR. GLASSER. I think it's a matter that the see how we will end up with a system that does advocates are basically dealing from a position of not fail to injure the very people that it has ideological faith. Assuming the best of interests, claimed will benefit from it. I don't think there is I think that is all it is. It is hard for me to see a shred of evidence to support that, and it wor- how there will ever be enough money pumped ries me to go down that route. into this system to benefit the people who are VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. I know it is getting ostensibly its beneficiaries. It is hard for me to late, but I do want to ask one more question of see why a society that has never given enough of Ms. Narasaki. I think we did touch a little bit on a damn to remedy the situation as it exists now, the Japan bashing. I just would like for you to and the tax structure of the schools of Alabama, comment on the recent discussion about auto is going to be the same society through its tax sales, Japan to our country, and our selling parts dollars that is putting in that sort of money. It is to Japan from Detroit. How much do you see, as hard for me to see that a society, which has the we discuss that particular trade issue, impact on attitude that our society has toward food stamps the overall anti-Asian and Japan bashing? and Aid for Dependent Children, and all the Ms. NARASAKI. Well, I think that the trade other social welfare programs for minorities, friction clearly does contribute to it. JACL keeps

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209 a running list of incidents where we have small nately, it is much easier to point your finger at descriptions of things that we find out about ei- someone who, because of media and history and ther through our chapters or through the media. other reasons, is somehow seen as less than hu- If you look at the comments that are being made man and take out your frustrations on that. Poli- by the people who are doing the attacks, clearly ticians point to them rather than to admitting it is because of their perception that the Japan- that there is some problem that really needs to ese are somehow at fault for all of the economic be addressed. ills of the United States. I think that is unfor- VICE CHAIRPERSON WANG. On that note, we tunate for several reasons, one of which is that I would like to express, on behalf of the Commis- think it causes the United States not to address sion, our deep thanks to every one of you for some really real problems beyond what their spending time with us and really sharing with trade imbalance is with Japan. us your views on this very important topic on It also, I think, is a result of the fact that we this Friday afternoon before the holiday. We ap- Asian Americans have never been seen as preciate and want to thank every one of you for Americans because of our faces, because of the your generosity. We know it has not been easy, accents. We are always seen as foreign. If you but you know the importance of the topic. I think look at advertisements and what is considered you have made a profound contribution. Thank the American face, you see generally a Cauca- you again very much. sian. You maybe see a black. You rarely see a On behalf of our Chair who is up at the Hill Latino, and you never see an Asian face. It's the together with our colleague to plead our case Kristi Yamaguchi issue. What is American?there, I want to just thank everyone here who When you look in the mirror and you think has made these 2 days possible, particularly the "American," what do you expect to see? The staff who has worked so hard and all of the peo- Japan bashing is built on and fosters and perpet- ple who have testified, altogether over 50 people uates that stereotype that Asian Americans are from across the country. I think the testimony foreign, that we are not really American, that has enlightened us and helped us to understand our interests are not bound up with America. the problems at hand, which will assist us as a JACL does not defend the policies of Japan. group to move forward in tackling this major There are real issues there. We are saying that problem of race relations confronting our nation. Asian Americans should not be scapegoats for This is the beginning of what we would hope that, and that the United States needs to look is a series of further investigations. We already very hard at the policies that are problems eco- made plans to travel around the country, to have nomically for America in addition to the trade hearings and invite others to testify. We will imbalance. keep our record open for 30 days, so if you have For example, you look at the salaries of the other views you would like to submit, other doc- heads of the three auto companies and what do uments and information, we welcome that. We you see? They are making multimillion dollarcertainly hope that down the road as we move salaries, getting raises in salaries, when their around the country, you keep us informed and companies for the last several years have been continue to contact us. I think that would be declining. How can that be in a system that sup- very helpful. posedly is based on performance and achieve- Again, on that note, I thank the Staff Director ment and capitalism and the market sorting out and everyone else who made this possible, our achievement? General Counsel, Commissioner Anderson, and There is something wrong with that, as was Commissioner Berry, who stayed until the end of earlier pointed out, when you have the top strata the hearing. Thank you very, very much and do of society actually increasing their income at the have a wonderful holiday. expense of the bottom part of society. Those [The hearing was adjourned.] things all need to be looked at and, unfortu-

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