/(767 PLAYBOY►I NTERVIEW: WILLIAM COLBY a somewhat candid conversation with the former director of the cia

William Colby is cast in the grand Division. After five years in that job, he to dosing people with mind-control mold: Princetonian, soldier, lawyer, spy. was recruited as deputy head of CORDS, drugs, to domestic spying. During the He-served as a commando paratrooper in the over-all structure under which the hearings, posters went up around-Wash- France cirid-korway during World War infamous Phoenix program was carried ington showing Colby as the ace of Two and with the Office of Strategic out. Since CORDS was run by the State spades and accusing him of assassinat- Services, the precursor of the Central Department, Colby took a "leave without ing 20,000 people under the Phoenix Intelligence Agency. For those extremely pay" from CIA. When he returned to program. dangerous missions—dropping behind Washington in 1971, due to the serious His tenure as director was continuously enemy lines and blowing up railroad (and ultimately fatal) illness of his plagued with bad publicity. At one press tracks—Colby won the Bronze Star, the daughter, he rejoined CIA and, in 1972, meeting, he told a group of editors that Croix de, guerre, the Silver Star and was given the job of executive director- CIA did not use American newsmen as Saint Olaf's Medal. Thinking he was go- comptroller—a seemingly dull job that, spies. Later, he checked, found that the ing to pursue a legal career, he returned in fact, gave Colby a rare overview of agency had used some newsmen and to school after the war and practiced the agency and its inner workings. called back to report this to the press. law for three years. Then along came the Under James Schlesinger's short re- The story was immediately reported un- fledgling CIA and Colby was recruited. gime as CIA director, Colby was made der banner headlines, and thus began the His first overseas assignment, in 1951, was deputy director of operations. When furor over CIA use of journalists that as political attache to the Stockholm Em- Attorney General Richard Kleindienst continues to this day. During his final bassy, a cover for intelligence work in had to resign as a result of Watergate, year in that office, Colby sometimes spent Scandinavia. In 1953, he was transferred Schlesinger became Secretary of Defense. as much time testifying about CIA's to Rome, where Clare Booth Luce was President Nixon then gave Colby the activities as he did Ambassador to Italy. One mission there nod to head the world's most widely running the agency. was to intervene in Italian politics in an publicized intelligence service. It was not And when The New York Times re- attempt to keep the Communists from destined to be easy at the top. vealed some of the details of The Fam- taking over. This much-criticized opera- At the time of the Senate hearings to ily Jewels in a December 1974 story, the tion involved pouring vast sums of confirm his appointment, Colby was re- lid blew off. Colby knew that his career money (officially, several million dollars) lentlessly grilled about The Family was over. It was just a matter of time— into the Italian political arena. Jewels—a secret 693-page report ordered and of taking the heat for Watergate, Colby arrived for his first Vietnam by Schlesinger, directed by Colby and Chile, domestic spying and just about tour in 1959 to take a position as deputy compiled by CIA's own Inspector Gen- everything else that could be dragged chief of station at Saigon. In 1960, he eral's Office. It dealt with what Colby into the House and Senate hearings. On was moved up to chief of station and in calls "some mistakes"—specifically CIA November 2, 1975, President Gerald 1962 became head of CIA's Far East abuses ranging from assassination plans Ford fired Colby in the traditional way:

"I think it is quite possible [that a "I don't have a problem with the moral "It's important that people like myself nuclear weapon will be exploded in an justification that if a man is a tyrant, speak out, yet not conceal the fact that aggressive manner]. A single shot, two then somebody under him has the right there are spies and that there need to be; shots, are quite possible in the next to shoot him. But that doesn't mean a that in the past 20 years CIA has made ten years." separate country has a right to do it." some mistakes—sure." 69 M He offered him another job, which on tape about Watergate and it was with coffee. Occasionally, she would re- 0 Colby turned down. resoundingly dull. Colby seemed to have turn with more hot coffee, smiling To find out what a major intelligence absolutely no recollection of certain as- brightly. To begin, I asked a question 111 officer would be willing—or be allowed— pects of the case and absolutely nothing about something that had always in- it say about America's most mysterious to say about others. For example, fames trigued me." al and notorious branch of service, we sent McCord was the man who left the piece Articles Editor Lautsece Gowenlen, who for of tape on the door—which led to the PLAYBOY: What was it like to be the head years has written on intelligence-related discovery of the burglars in the act. But of CIA and really know what's going on? al matters for PLAYBOY, to talk with him. McCord was an excellent CIA security COLBY: Wonderful! The biggest change Gonzales' report: officer, bringing up the question of how in my life, frankly, was the day I walked "I first determined to interview Colby he could do something that stupid—or out of CIA Headquarters at Langley about two years ago, when I _appeared and no longer read "The Morning . • . whether, perhaps, McCord's act Was in- oft- ft-telszniton show and learned from tentional. Colby, in responding_to this, News." I work very hard now to try to the moderator TIRit he had had Colby as merely shrugged and allowed thatMc- keep up with what's happening in the a guest. During the course of their talks, Cord was probably an all-right security rest of the world and I know I'm not in Colby had said that - CIA had never officer. Period. In general, there seem to the same ball park in terms of what I assassinated anybody. I wanted to look be whole areas that Colby has made a knew then. in his eyes and have him repeat that. personal policy decision not to think PLAYBOY: What is "The Morning News"? When we finally sat down over a tape about. He told me that he purposely COUIY: An attempt to encapsulate the recorder, I learned what a master of didn't read certain controversial CIA- major events of the previous day. It's language he was and how well his years related books, so that he wouldn't have really very good. I made it into a news- of answering hostile questions had served to talk about them. On the face of it, paper, because I found that a very use- him. Questioning Colby was like talking this seems to contrast with the ample ful way to present information, with to a man who has something hidden in evidence of research in 'Honorable Men,' headlines and all the rest. his pocket. You must guess what it is. Colby's recent book published by Simon PLAYBOY: You're now retired, but people You have no clues and your question i!i! Schuster. The careful reader will also may wonder: Has he really retired? must be exactly right—close doesn't Once CIA, always CIA, as they say. count. If it is a piece of gold and you ask COLBY: I have two connections at CIA, if it is money, you will learn nothing. my pension and my secrecy agreement. And if you happen on the right answer, "CIA is the best I hope I keep both. the man is bound by an oath not to tell PLAYBOY: Do you still consult with CIA? you that you have guessed correctly. intelligence service in the COLBY: I canceled my clearance the day "CIA's reality is different from our I left office. I have not seen one classi- reality. Widely publicized all over the world. The Soviets did some fied bit of information since I left. Oh, world was the fact that CIA built a brilliant work years ago, both former director George Bush and spy ship called the Glomar Explorer to current director Admiral Stansfield raise a sunken Russian Golf Class sub- but I don't think they're Turner have asked me to speak at their marine. Yet Colby, under his secrecy training courses. I've seen them for little agreement, is not allowed to talk about doing that well now." chats; they've picked my brain. And what is common knowledge to the rest every now and again I call up over there of the world. Officially, to him, the story and pass along somebody who's inter- ested in having his name dropped in for does not exist. It is very 1989. notice certain inconsistencies or even in- "During the interview, Colby often accuracies in some of Colby's statements. possible employment. would pause after hearing a question and Although many were challenged, I have PLAYBOY: What is CIA, as you would define it? think for a long time—sometimes 90 no way of knowing what Colby's sources COLBY: CIA is part of the United States seconds or more. And when he finally are or whether future researchers can Government whose responsibility is to answered, it would be almost as if he had prove him right or wrong. been trying to remember the exact word- "Generally, preparing for an inter- know what's going on abroad, collecting information openly, using technology, ing of an official statement on the sub- view involves simple research in libraries. electronics, photography, as well as tra- ject, as if he did not want to we his own When dealing with one of the world's mind but wanted to reiterate what the foremost spies, however, material is not ditional clandestine methods, to obtain information that is kept secret from us Government had already said. Under- so easy to come by, and some rather standably, he wants to protect many specialized sources had to be consulted. by other countries, when that informa- tion is of importance to the safety and legitimate secrets. But some of his re- Although most of them did not care to welfare of our people. That's the main sponses made me wonder about where he be identified, the assistance of Asa Bober, function of CIA. In addition, intelli- draws the line in doing so, though he in- a frequent PLAYBOY contributor and for- gence—knowing things—can avoid wars. sisted time and again that he does not lie. mer Marine officer, was essential to the "He has a staggering grasp of world preparation of this interview. If you have intelligence, you know the threats. But I go even further: If you political events—as would be expected— "Colby and I began at his home just know the reasons for the other side's and has at his finger tips the details of outside Washington. His home life sug- the most obscure machinations around gests another side of this man that does hostilities, you can then begin to resolve the globe. It struck me that this contrasts not match the usual image of the hard, those things with negotiation instead sharply with his lapses in memory on cold, gray-man spy. It is a relaxed—if of struggle. certain subjects. well thought out—atmosphere. Inside, PLAYBOY: How good is CIA? "The interview was conducted in his the lighting is subdued. Beautiful Orien- COLEY: It's the best intelligence service home and office over a period of some tal artifacts are everywhere, some so deli- in the world. weeks, resulting in almost 20 hours of cate one is afraid they might break if PLAYBOY: What are the other top-ranking taped material. Even the casual reader looked at too intensely. Colby's wife intelligence services, in your opinion? will notice the lack of meaningful in- appears to be his opposite: lively, grin- COLBY: Well, I don't really like to discuss formation regarding certain subjects, ning, fun-loving and eager to make con- foreign intelligence services very much, such as Watergate, to use one glaring versation. As we sat down, she brought because I don't think that—I don't 70 example. We put a good deal of material out an array of cakes and served them want to talk about them. But, obviously,

Is I learned some of my lessons from the old liberal doctrine and all the rest. But COLBY: I don't think there's any differ- 0 British. The Israeli is obviously a good that is different from a state's assassi- ence. I don't think a guerrilla is either intelligence service. The Soviets did nating somebody in another country. good or bad. In other words, we get II some brilliant work years ago when they Now, I do make one exception. In back to the moral judgment about ends Im took advantage of their reputation as time of war, if our young men are shoot- and means. In Norway, we were hoping 4 the leading anti-Fascists against Hitler, ing their young men, and vice versa, I to have a train crash into the river. But Mussolini and so forth and recruited a don't think we old men should be im- I put a fellow up the track with a radio. a number of high officials in democratic mune. Therefore. I would have cheer- because if we had a train full of Nor- 0, countries such as Kim Philby, such as fully helped assassinate Adolf Hitler in wegian women and children, I sure as some of the Americans in the atomic 1944. No doubt about that. hell would not blow that bridge. I've period and so forth. But I don't think PLAYBOY: If we were being oppressed by stuck my neck out, taken a lot of chances they're_ doing that well now,_ because Jimmy Carter. shoold we shoot hint? where I'm really a little surprised that they -tlort't represent anything positive COLEY: Yeah, --if you really -were being I'm alive today. But I'm not One of the anymore. Theviets during most of oppressed. If you don't have otherve- "my country, right or wrong" types. Our the Fifties conducted a major campaign hicles—and you have lots of other country can be wrong. I think we've to the effect that they represented the vehicles in this country, known as elec- made mistakes. For instance, I respect peace-loving forces. And they had peace tions and courts and all that sort of the antiwar people of the Sixties and conferences and they had a great propa- thing. early Seventies. ganda mechanism. And yet, when we PLAYBOY: Do you think, then, that the PLAYBOY: If you felt your country were had an antiwar movement, it didn't people of Chile should rise up and shoot wrong, would you have resisted if you become a Communist movement. The their oppressive leaders? were young and eligible for the draft? Communists didn't run that movement, COLEY: 1 just couldn't say. But I think COLBY: That's hard to say. I really have didn't profit by it, because the people that you are on the point. You're on the a hard time answering that. If my coun- who were in the antiwar movement description. As I say, the Declaration of try is doing something I think is morally here, the Americans, had no sympathy Independence states that philosophy wrong—which is what some of the anti- for the Soviets. They were against their very clearly and I'll go with it. war people felt, I give them that re- own Government, yes. But they didn't PLAYBOY: How about Uganda? Do the spect—then I think you have to say, translate that into support for the Soviet Ugandan people have an obligation to "Well, no. There's a moral limit here. situation and I don't think the Soviets kill Idi Amin? This is something I really can't associate recruited anybody worth a darn out with." I can envisage that as a possibil- of that. ity. Say, if we tried to seize Panama—the PLAYBOY: If you are our protector, who country, not just the canal: That would is going to protect us from you? "I doubt Amin will die a be such a violation of my thoughts COLBY:- The separate constitutional struc- about where our country ought to go ture, the separation of powers. That's natural death. That's a pre- that I would have a tough time decid- what's going to protect you from me. ing. I felt my country made a terrible And the press. diction. I'm not saying we're mistake in overthrowing Diem (in South PLAYBOY: Has CIA been hurt by the going to do anything." Vietnam in 1963]. But I stayed within press? the structure and tried to recover from COLBY: Oh, it's been hurt. It's been hurt that shock. If President Kennedy had by the sensationalism. I think the only given the order to have him shot. then I COLEY: It would be a moral aot if they word you can use is hysteria. Intelli- think I would have.... did. gence today is a far cry From the old PLAYBOY: What would you have done? PLAYBOY: Do we have many CIA people spy. It has changed our knowledge of COLBY: I have no idea at this point. in Uganda? the world almost totally. Things that PLAYBOY: You obviously have very strong IS. 20 years ago we wouldn't have COLBY: I doubt it, but I don't know. And feelings about the Diem overthrow and I really wouldn't want to say one way dreamed of knowing we can now meas- we will come back to that. But one more or the other. ure. I think it's important that people question on this subject of disagreeing like myself speak out, yet not conceal PLAYBOY: If CIA has agents in Uganda, with your country: Had you been in are they encouraging this act? the fact that there are spies and that college during the Sixties, on which side COLEY: No, that's different. Encouraging there need to be; that in the past 20 of the student movements do you think them to kill him? No, I don't think that. years CIA has made some mistakes— you would have been? But helping them in what they want to sure. COLBY: That's an interesting question. I do? There it would be moral if the PLAYBOY: By mistakes you apparently don't think I would have been in the safety and welfare of the people of the mean such abuses as attempting to assas- antiwar movement. I was in Princeton United States could somehow be related sinate Fidel Castro. when the British had the pacifist Oxford to it. COLBY: I think assassination is as Talley. movement in '36 and '37. I thought that PLAYBOY: What do you think will hap- rand once said to Napoleon: "Sire, it is pretty farfetched, pretty absurd. So did pen to Amin? not only wrong, it is worse than wrong. the pacifists, two or three years later. I It is stupid." Now, I don't have any COLBY: Well. I doubt he will die a think if I had been in college during problem with the old moral justification natural death. That's a prediction. I'm the late Sixties, I would have tried to that if a man is a total tyrant, then not saying that we're going to do any- draw some kind of middle position be- somebody under him has the right to thing. tween those who were opposed to the shoot him. But that doesn't mean a PLAYBOY: Didn't you start your military- war as immoral and those who were op- separate country has a right to do it. If intelligence career as a guerrilla in posed to the opposers—the hard-hat I am being oppressed by someone—my World War Two? kind of people. family has been destroyed. I've been COLBY: In Norway, in France. Yeah. PLAYBOY: Do you think the comparison sent to jail and all the rest—then I PLAYBOY: How do you distinguish among between the Thirties movement in have a right to respond. That's what good or bad guerrillas, since you obvi- Great Britain and the Sixties movement the Declaration of Independence says. ously consider yourself one of the for- in America is a fair one? It is our right, our duty to overthrow a mer? Che Guevara was a guerrilla. COLIIY: I'm just saying that I'm not a 72 tyrant. That's old church doctrine and Ulrike Meinhof was one. Carlos is one. pacifist. I don't believe that unilateral pacifism works. There are some things We were picked up in London for being one has to fight for. out of uniform. I think that's probably PLAYBOY: So the war resisters of the Six- the first of the American Green Berets, ties were wrong? in 1994. If you now wear eye- COLBY: Yes. I think the Government was PLAYBOY: What can you tell us of the glasses or hard contact wrong in the way it did it, but I think real CIA, as opposed to the image in lenses, have your eyes the antiwar movement was wrong in popular folklore? For instance, have you examined and ask your feeling that we should not assist in seen any movies that deal with spies eye doctor if you can wear South Vietnam. accurately? Bausch & Lomb SOFLENS5 PLAYBOY: You fought in World War COLBY: There were a couple made after (potymacon) Contact Two. Do you consider yourself a brave World War Two about the British that Lenses. He'll decide, based man? _ _ I thought were pretty good. I can't give on the health of your eyes, _COLlivi-Isei frightened when things get you the titles. Some written-accounts of dangerous. If fotTre not frightened, you the Cuban Missile Crisis give a pretty the vision correction they don't really appreciate what the prob- good flavor of how intelligence con- need and the way you lem is. I get the heat in the top of my tributes to decision making. Theodore work and relax. mouth once in a while when things are Sorenson's book and the one by—what's Contact lenses, for a little dicy. But I don't think you his name? With the bow tie? Arthur should single yourself out for laudatory Schlesinger. example, shouldn't be adjectives. PLAYBOY: Did you see Three Days of worn while swimming, PLAYBOY: Still, when you were a com- the Condor? sleeping or in the presence mando paratrooper, you were dropped COLBY: I saw it on an airplane. It's of irritating vapors. Avoid behind enemy lines, at one point in the baloney. It's just plain baloney. The exposing lenses to cosmetics, wrong place. How did you react to such baloney part is the theory that there's lotions, soaps, creams a dangerous situation? some interior plot or group in CIA and hair sprays. COLBY: I. was not very happy about it. that determines its policies and elimi- No use sitting around analyzing it. At nates those who disagree. Your eye doctor will that point, you have made the analysis: PLAYBOY: What about the TV series see that you enjoy the full You're in the wrong place. It's time Washington: Behind Closed Doors? benefit of SOFLENS Contact to go. COLBY: I saw about two of the episodes Lenses by giving you easy PLAYBOY: Did you kill anyone? and I thought they were outrageous. directions for lens wear cotaY: Sure, during World War Two. First, the concept that the director of and care. PLAYBOY: In what situation? CIA is some independent power in COLBY: In France, an attack with a Washington, spending all of his time Your eyes are priceless. bunch of French Resistance people. We keeping up with and manipulating Protect them with regular heard a German plane had been American political decisions. Second, eye examinations. And knocked down and we went out to shoot the outrage of saying—and it was a If you ever have any eye it up and got in a fight. I think we had veiled reference to Helms—that Helms problems, consult your eye one wounded and they had a couple had blackmailed the President—Nix- killed. on—into making him Ambassador [to doctor immediately. PLAYBOY: Did you see the person you Iran] by threatening to reveal something killed? about the Watergate affair. Well, of For free contact lens informa- COLBY: No. I aimed at him, but I didn't course, the fact is that Helms is the fel- tion, write Bausch & Lomb, see him after that. low who said no to Watergate, said no SOFLENS' Division, Room 101-PB, PLAYBOY: Did you have an emotional to the cover-up, said he wouldn't be in- Rochester, N.Y. 14602. reaction to killing the first time? volved in it—and it's just outrageous to COLBY: I didn't like it I really think we have that image of the director of CIA ought to be able to solve our problems and of Helms put on the tube in every in this world in a better way than that. home in America, It's just false, false PLAYBOY: But did it disturb you emo- history. It's not even fiction. ttonally? PLAYBOY: Many people do not think COLBY: No. I don't think so. Helms was as heroic as you say. Some PLAYBOY: What we've been driving at is think he perjured himself for Nixon's that some critics have called you cold- sake and thus had a hold over Nixon. blooded. We just asked you how it felt COLBY: I don't think Helms perjured to kill and you said you had no reaction himself. And that had nothing to do other than an intellectual one. with Watergate. That was the Chilean COLBY: I tried to keep it on that level. I thing. tried to do my duty. PLAYBOY: We were referring to the Sen- PLAYBOY: When you became a spy, did ate hearings in which he apparently lied you consciously try to make your ap- about CIA involvement. pearance bland? COLBY: Frankly, I don't think what he COLBY: Nondescript. said met the legal standards of perjury. BAUSCH & LOMB 0 PLAYBOY: And did that represent a With respect so having power. the fact SOFLENS DIVISION change from what you were like before? was, he was fired. The fact is, I was Rochester, N.Y. 14602 COLBY: No, I don't think so. I was never fired. So there's no question about a flamboyant leader. During World War whether or not the President has power registerei trademark of Bausch 8 Loma Two, I got into a little trouble with over the head of CIA. Incorporated for polymacon contact lenses made of 614% poly (2-hydroxyethyl methac- the MPs in London because a friend of PLAYBOY: What is your view of the rylate) and 38.6% water when immersed in a mine and 1 decided we would make our Chilean matter? Helms did lie to the sterile saution of a 9% sodium chloride. U.S.P. uniforms a little more colorful and we Senate. did he not? 74 bought a couple of British green berets. COLBY: The main issue was whether or Is not CIA or the United States gave aid not commit perjury. Not that he wasn't, telling the Soviets something unique is a to the opponents of Allende in the 1970 you know, less than totally responsive. too strong. election in Chile. Helms's answer was PLAYBOY: That certainly puts a fine PLAYBOY: According to Epstein and 01 no. Now, a decision was made that we point on it. But let's go on. One of the others, CIA opened a letter from Oswald 1a would do some little, minor propaganda most sensational recent charges against in Moscow to his brother, in which it activity against Allende, against the CIA was made by Edward Jay Epstein Oswald said he had seen Francis Gary prospect of Communist victory there. in his recent book, Legend. In it, he says Powers. Is that so? During the hearing, the question was, the Soviets recruited Lee Harvey Oswald COLBY: It triggers in me somewhere that al Did we give aid to the opponents? to tell them about the 1.1-2 spy plane. that has been denied. I'm not sure, but I There were two opponents of Allende. I, Oswald was a radar operator at Atsugi can't flatly deny it now. But it tickles And I think it's a reasonable construe- Air Base in Japan, a base used by the my brain that somehow we denied it. _ lion: when _you say, "Did you-give aid 1.1-2. Afterward, he was sent back to the PLAYBOY: But wasn't Nosenko. trying to –to the-opponents?" you're talking about U. S. The Soviets had notifing to _do with cover for a Soviet double agent—known the opposing candidates. The Supreme the assassination of President Kennedy, as a mole—who was working his way Court has set a very high standard for according to Epstein, but when Oswald into CIA? perjury, and the Court heard a case a shot him, they had to cover his connec- COLBY: Well, that's the interpretation. couple of years ago and basically said tion with Russia. To accomplish this, There are two teams who have a view that if there is a reasonable construction Yuri Nosenko posed as a defector to about Nosenko. One says that he was a and you don't tell everything, that's not assure CIA, among other things, that fake. The other says that he was legiti- the problem. The problem is whether Oswald had not been recruited by the mate. It was the formal finding of the you answer the exact language. It's up K.G.B. In addition, another Soviet agent senior officers of the agency that he was to the prosecution to ask the right ques- was sent to corroborate Nosenko, thereby a legitimate defector. That was the final tions to force you to give them flatly allowing the FBI to assure the Warren decision. Not every individual in CIA false answers. I think there's enough Commission that Oswald was a lone, accepted that. ambiguity there that Helms wouldn't crazed 39Sacsin. PLAYBOY: And the alleged mole in CIA? have been convicted by a fair jury. COLBY: Whew! [Laughs] First, 1 don't COLBY: I do not know of any mole in PLAYBOY: Mr_ Colby, he was clearly mis- think there is any credible evidence that CIA. None has surfaced in the past leading the committee, was he not? Oswald was a Soviet agent while he was 30 years. I don't say it is impossible. but COLBY: He was trying to protect the in Japan. Oswald was a Marine essen- I don't believe it has happened. secret. Nixon had ordered him to tell 1.tially on guard duty at an air base. A PLAYBOY: Epstein says it's impossible for nobody that we had been involved in lot of aircraft took off and landed there us to establish moles inside Russia. any way in that whole operation in all the time, including, I guess, the U-2. COLEY: That is wrong. I won't tell you Chile. He was trying to protect the I can't confirm that the U-2 used the what's wrong, but the basic "it's impos- secret his President had told him to base, but I've heard that it did. But to sible" is wrong. keep. And so he did. But I say he did jump from that to the fact that he was PLAYBOY: New York magazine published

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an article about the Epstein thesis. Did COLBY: I don't remember that at all. I COLBY: It wasn't my sources. It was the you read that? don't really know what that refers to. agency's general effort. I believe Angle- COLBY: Yes. [Pause] The best line in that I don't remember talking to Angleton ton felt that some of the sources we had article, incidentally, is.— about it. were doubles—and some undoubtedly [Here, Colby points out a paragraph PLAYBOY: Why did you fire Angleton and were, and I don't object to that. But I in the magazine in which an ex-stall reorganize his counterintelligence de- think his people were hypercritical. member who had worked with former partment? Most of our approach is in a defensive, head of CIA counterintelligence James COLBY: Well, Angleton's and my differ- rather than an offensive mode. And this Angleton—whom Colby fired—was ences were professional differences. He hypersuspicion and hypersecrecy result- asked who the alleged CIA mole might believed in a high degree of compart- ed in a disincentive to developing the be. The answer: "You might find out mentation, all counterintelligence cen- kind of positive sources we needed. I tralized in a single staff—a very large who Colby was seeing in Rome in the was not a believer that a Soviet double single staff. I believe it much more agent could badly lead the United States early Fifties."] important to get all of the agency con- astray. That was the theory of the coun- PLAYBOY: How do you interpret that? scious of its responsibilities in counter- terintelligence people: that the Soviets COLBY: Well. I didn't understand what intelligence. I found it very difficult to could give us some totally false informa- it meant when I first read it, frankly. get any results out of the former system. tion and cause us to have a perfect But somebody said to me, "That means I felt that the job of CIA is not to fight disaster. that you might have been the mole. And the K.G.B. but to find out the secret in- PLAYBOY: The answer to the specific that you might have been in touch with formation in another country that is charge is still not clear. so let's put it the Russians back then." But, of course, important. Angleton was too secretive this way: In Epstein's words, "The for- I just deny. I mean, that's nonsense. in his way of doing business. And I mer CIA officers who were involved in PLAYBOY: Is that a Helms-type denial, in finally came to the decision that either the hunt Efor the mole] tell me that the which you don't tell everything? he was going to run that part of the "new" CIA has now made a policy deci- COM: [Laughs] I officially, flatly, super- agency or I was. And I was charged by sion to believe moles do not exist. All deny it, and I notice its rather carefully the President and the Congress with speculation an this subject has been written in the article. But I'm not going running it. I didn't fire him. I offered officially designated 'sick think.' " Now, to sue anybody. Don't worry about it. him a different job. He had had the job clearly, Epstein is drawing on the Angle- can just deny it- for about 20 years and I thought it was ton camp. but do you consider that an PLAYBOY: Whatever the Rome incident time for some new blood. accurate interpretation? was, Epstein says that you did have con- PLAYBOY: What about the specific COLBY: It didn't happen under my watch. tact with a Frenchman in Vietnam who charge—the Epstein thesis again—that Quite the contrary: I say it's possible was a Soviet agent. Further, that when Angleton and his people were challeng- that there may be moles, but I do not Angleton later brought that to your ing your Soviet sources, so you had to believe there have been. attention, you blew your stack. get rid of him? PLAYBOY: Could you then summarize 77 your view of the Nosenko story for us? it, but I recognize as a political fact that CIA's Soviet Russian Division prepared CIA. He wrote us a very warm, grateful that is not going to happen. letter of resignation. Agee then went off an internal report that said Nosenko PLAYBOY: Could other governments use was a fake. on his own and eventually produced our journalists, then? that book. I don't have a problem with COLBY: There was a report written, I COLBY: Other countries are using jour- its being critical of CIA. That part gather. I never read it. But the responsi- nalists to any degree they can. We know would have been cleared. The part that ble people who reviewed it came to the that. That's obvious. And, therefore, I would not have been cleared was the conclusion that the report did not es- do not think that we should bar our- list of names of everybody he could re- tablish what it set out to establish, that selves from being able to get at the press member who had worked with CIA. Nosenko was a fake, The senior levels of other countries. thereby exposing them to all sorts of of the agency, which reviewed the mat- PLAYBOY: That doesn't answer the ques- potential problems. I ter at that time, came to the opposite find that totally tion. reprehensible. And I would cite his visits conclusion. I've checked this recently COLBY: There are journalists here- who to Cuba, the assistance he's had from the with one of the senior officers involved have been used by foreign governments, and he said absolutely, we went through Cubans, the fact that he is sufficiently I believe, either consciously or uncon- in touch with hostile intelligence groups every little bit of the thing and we came sciously. to be persona non grata to the British. to the conclusion that Nosenko was PLAYBOY: Which ones? what he said he was. I gather now the French and the Dutch COUY: I'm not going to name diem. But have put him PLAYBOY: So Epstein was wrong. out of their countries. Ap- I know a number of countries that have parently, he has continued connections COLBY: Yeah; oh, yeah. used their nationals as journalists re- with some hostile intelligence services PLAYBOY: Let's talk about your credibil- porting as intelligence agents. ity. There are many critics of CIA that are unsatisfactory to those coun- PLAYBOY: Yes, but are they recruiting tries. Those countries didn't do it be- who wouldn't believe you if you gave Americans? them the time of day, isn't that true? cause we asked them to, that I assure COLBY: I'm trying to see whether I can you. COLBY: Oh, yes, sure. Somebody asked remember any cases of American jour- PLAYBOY: Agee wrote a book against the me one time, "How can I believe you nalists and I can't, offhand. when you say these things?" My answer agency's interests. Are there propagan- dists who write hooks or make movies is, don't. Your job is to review the alter- nate statements, come to your own con- and documentary films at the behest of the agency? clusions. Don't just accept what I say. "Somebody asked me one COW: I don't know whether it's all that PLAYBOY: Does being regarded with so much suspicion bother you personally? time, 'How can I believe broad. When you have a cultural con- test between the Soviets and the COLBY: No. That's part of the job of Amer- representing an organization. I think you when you say these icans, if the Soviets are putting out their its quite appropriate. word, then I think we ought to be able to put out OUTS. PLAYBOY: When you say review the al- things?' My answer is, ternate statements, we assume that in- PLAYBOY: That's a pretty evasive answer. dudes the various committee reports on don't. Come to your COLBY: If the other side can use ideas investigations into CIA. But many jour- own conclusions." that are camouflaged as being local rath- nalists contradict your statements in er than Soviet supported or stimulated, those reports. How do you respond to then we ought to be able to use ideas camouflaged as local ideas. that? PLAYBOY: Are there times when you in- PLAYBOY: So, have we—or has CIA? COLBY: I don't think the journalists con- tentionally forget things it would be tradict me. There are some extremists COUP: I think CIA did help produce inconvenient to remember? books abroad, yes. In a few cases. it who certainly do contradict me, yes. COUY: Oh, I think a psychiatrist will say But if you'll read carefully even what helped produce a book in America for that you unconsciously forget things distribution abroad—had it published the journalists say, you'll find basically you don't want to remember. But I don't here. In some cases, it provided material they're agreeing with what I say. use that gimmick of saying I don't re- to people who then wrote their own PLAYBOY: Are you saying that journalists member. Now, sometimes your question books. who don't agree with you are extremists? may put a very fuzzy tingle in the back COW: No, I'm not saying that at all. of my mind and I may not be sure. At PLAYBOY: This is all very vague. Let's get down to specifics. Praeger and Fodor— PLAYBOY: Still, die official reports aren't that point, I won't say no, but I won't two well-known publishing houses— exactly accepted as the final say yes, either. I will probably say I words on have been mentioned as having been CIA abuse. don't really remember, even though used by CIA. COLBY: The Rockefeller report is subject there may be a little sort of funny to the accusation that it was a little tingle—there may be something there, COLBY: I'm not sure I could say. This is more discreet than it might have been. but I don't know what it is. one of those things where I really don't But the Senate [Church] report I really PLAYBOY: We were discussing Americans like to name names. Because I really don't think is. I think that comes out who might have been recruited by ene- don't think CIA ought to go around my governments. What about former pretty straight. The Pike report I making secret arrangements with people CIA officer Philip Agee, author of thought was outrageous. It just picked In- and later give out the names. side the Company, who published a list up our own old, internal post-mortems PLAYBOY: You once mentioned in a com- of the names and locations of active mittee hearing that CIA used Reuters, and published them as its findings. CIA personnel? [Agee was the subject of That's pretty easy stuff. the British equivalent of A.P. or U.P.I. the August 1975 Playboy Interview,' Later, you retracted that. Tell us about PLAYBOY: Many reporters have written COLBY: I think Philip Agee can be con- about the practice of CIA's using jour- Reuters. sidered our first defector front CIA. In COLBY: Oh, there's nothing. Unfortu- nalists. Should our spies be able to use his book, he thanks the Communist journalistic cover? nately, that was a pure throw-off phrase, Party of Cuba for its assistance in his "like Reuters." It wasn't a reference to COLBY: Not now, no. Sure, I would like research. He decided to resign from (continued on page 164) 81 "tE director of Central Intelligence." That (continued from page 81) IN PLAYBOY INTERVIEW doesn't sound like much of a restriction. O anything in particular. It was just some- in America. There's no reason for it COLBY: Well, there's a very simple answer PI thing everybody would identify as a for- here. And I mean that literally. There's to that. I told the Congress all it has to IM eign news service. I should have said Tass. no reason for CIA; even 20 years ago, do is tell the director that it wants to pgi PLAYBOY: Are you saying CIA has never there was no particular reason. know of any exceptions. And CIA can't worked with Reuters? PLAYBOY: What about other attempts to get away with not telling them what it • cow: Now you get into these kinds of mold American opinion? has to tell them. • questions and I have to be very careful. cotay: Well, take, for instance, the Na- "imam,. Why not? I'm not quite sure of the answer to that tional Students Association relationship COLBY: That is very clear. If the Congress particular question. Whether a CIA we had. We went to the N.S.A., saying wants to supervise, whiCh it does now, _ story ever appeared in Reuters,..1 really the Soviets were supporting a very large- then it is very easy for it to supervise. It –couldn't ',say. But Reuters was not con- scale international student-effort and we has the job of writing the appropriation trolled, run, managed by CIA. That's had to match that. And if you "..:rierican every year. certainly true. students here can get active in this in- PLAYBOY: Traditionally, Congress has re- PLAYBOY: Somewhere—anywhere—has ternational field—go to the meetings, garded CIA as a hot potato and has CIA been involved in the production stand up and say what you think about not supervised its activities. Can Con- of a movie? America—why, well help you in that gress really supervise it? COLBY: Yes. I think so. yes. respect. That is what the CIA funds cOSBY: I think Congressmen know it has PLAYBOY: How about specifics? Do you were used for in support of N.S.A. With to be done. And if the responsibility is remember? one exception, I believe. I think we firmly on them to do it, they'll do it. No COLBY: Yeah, but I don't know enough helped guarantee the mortgage on their matter what their attitude is, they're go- about it that I want to name it. I mean, headquarters. ing to have to do it. They can't afford to I might be off base on the specific ar- PLAYBOY: Under CIA's program to help be caught off base. rangement. I always resisted movie proj- that organization, didn't it send Gloria PLAYBOY: Still, the new directive would ects; they're terribly expensive. There's Steinem to a foreign political confer- appear to have a large loophole. It no use making a movie unless you know ence at one point? doesn't, for example, cover free-lance how you're going to distribute it. And COW: I think she is not very happy wri ters. the usual enthusiasm will get the movie about this story these days, because she's COLBY: It covers anyone who is accred- made and then you end up looking been accused—and I think wrongly--of ited_ around to see how to distribute it— being linked with CIA. She was quoted PLAYBOY: So PLAYBOY could give this in- and you can't. So you end up with Iota as having said she was supported by CIA terviewer leave without pay and he of cans of film in the back room. CIA in going to one of those conferences but would be clear to work with CIA, didn't support Three Days of the Con- that CIA had not told her what to say correct? dor, that's for sure. and do; that CIA was providing the COLBY: If he were a free citizen abroad PLAYBOY: What about John Wayne's The means for them to get there but wasn't with no connection to PLAYBOY, yes, he Green Berets? manipulating or running them. could pose as a journalist under that COLBY: [Laughs] No. Not the James PLAYBOY: Yet the agency certainly role. Bond movies, either. wouldn't have chosen a young Abbie PLAYBOY: Yet you categorically deny that PLAYBOY: Are there any editors on any Hoffman to go to those conferences. CIA has any media-manipulation pro- newspapers or magazines or in any pub- COLBY: I guess that if some particularly grams. lishing houses here in the U.S. who are vocal pro-Soviet figure had been included COLBY: Absolutely yes, I'll deny that flat- on contract to CIA? in the group, we would have asked, "Do ly. Again, in America. I hope we won't court I would say the answer is no. ac- we really need to pay for this airline be barred from the use of Tass. cording to Turner's directive. ticket?" But I don't think he had to be PLAYBOY: One journalist who charged PLAYBOY: When did that stop? a good Eisenhower supporter. either. CIA with massive domestic manipulation [Mr: I haven't the faintest idea. PLAYBOY: So you're claiming CIA has was Seymour Hersh of The New Pork PLAYBOY: In any event, you can see what not been involved in any domestic prop- Times. But you called him a good we're getting at. CIA can say it is aganda efforts? American and a good journalist in no longer going to use American jour- COLBY; Essentially not. As I say, you have your recent book. What do you mean nalists and then go ahead and use who- the fallout problem that has come from ever is excluded by the strictest sense CIA efforts abroad. That when you do COLthBY:at? He's certainly not disloyal to his of the definition, thereby producing the some covert propaganda work abroad, country. I think he's loyal to his pro- sane result as if there were no restric- there's a chance that an American will fession. tions at all. pick it up and bring it home, or send PLAYBOY: When is a. reporter not a good COLBY: Oh, yes. It's a terrible problem. it home. That's a fallout problem. I American? It's a difficult problem. Obviously, if think Turner's rule says that if there's COLBY: When he sits by for the other side. something is in one category, you don't any substantial fallout here, you're not I think Kim Philby wasn't a good Brit- do it. If it's in another, you do do it. to do it. Fundamentally, CIA was inter- isher. If it says don't use journalists, then you ) ested in affecting foreign opinion. Fun- PLAYBOY: Wait a minute; that's a ridicu- don't use journalists. If it says don't use damentally, CIA was not interested in lous analogy. Philby was not a journalist. authors, you don't use authors. But affecting American opinion. COLBY: Yes, he was a journalist. authors aren't journalists. It's a different PLAYBOY: Let us ask you one more ques- PLAYBOY: He used journalistic cover— business. I mean, use the words for tion about the use of journalists by CIA. there's a big difference. what they say. The new directive prohibits it, but COUP: He was a journalist. PLAYBOY: And when you were direc- there's a disclaimer that reads: "Excep- PtAvsor: Professionally, Philby was a spy. tor- tions: No exceptions to the policies and COLBY: Well, he was lots of things... . COLBY: When I was there, I testified sev- prohibitions stated above may he made PLAYBOY: You know as well as we do that 164 eral times that I didn't have anybody except with the specific approval of the Philby was not a journalist recruited by 114 an intelligence agency. He was an intel- PLAYBOY: You've made your position fair- that some of the deaths occurred was 0 ligence agent posing as a journalist. ly clear in testimony in the past. translated into 20,000 assassinated. And COLEY: You're right. You're right. I ac- COLBY: Well, I want to make sure that if its just false. cept that. You know, that business about you have any questions about Phoenix, PLAYBOY: What is assassination? is answering questions narrowly—it's a ter- my explanation is there. COLBY: A conscious effort to kill some- rible problem and I really haven't figured PLAYBOY: We do have questions about body. out how to get around it. Because if you Phoenix. You have answered them many PLAYBOY: So, if an agency were to pick answer the questions broadly, you're times, and yet there remains a very sim- someone out by name and say, "We are proved wrong. And, therefore, my only ple one: There were 20,000 people going to go out and kill this one person," solution has been to answer them nar- killed- would that be assassination? rowly. COLBY: And 28,000 captured and 17,000 COLBY: That would be an assassination, PLAYBOY: Some members of the press have took the amnesty. And the 20,000 dead yes. And I think that in some situations, - kept - sst:lets at your request:- Hersh. for the most part were killed in military you can pick someone by name and say among others, kept the Glomar Explorer combat and identified after ffiey were we're going to go out and try to capture story secret when you asked him to. And dead. And that is not 20,000 assassinated. this person, and if we can't capture him, didn't Jack Anderson keep some project PLAYBOY: How do you distinguish be- werre going to end up shooting him—at secret at your request? tween 20,000 people dead and 20,000 him. court I asked him to make a change and people assassinated? PLAYBOY: Was there a CLA jargon word he did. COLBY: The accusation is that they were for killing? PLAYBOY: What was it? assassinated, wrongly killed. They were COLBY: For killing? There was a CIA jar- COLBY; Oh, he had run across an opera- killed in the course of military combat, gon. Also, the upper levels of the United tion he felt was over. He had written it in the course of a war. In other words. States Government used it: executive up. If it had been over, I wouldn't have the Phoenix program was designed CO action. said a word to him, but it was still going and did move into a very bitter and PLAYBOY: Let's continue on the subject on. He didn't know it. I called him and bloody battle that was going on in Viet- of Vietnam, since you were the CIA sta- asked him if he could stop it. I said, "I nam between the secret Communist ap- tion chief in Saigon for a time during think you think it's over, right?" He said, paratus and the government. Phoenix the war. Why were the enemy actions in "Yeah." I said, "If it were over, I was designed to improve the govern- Vietnam worse than our own? wouldn't be calling you." Well, then he ment's side, if not the Communists' side, COLBY: I think there was an indiscrimi- was interested. I said, "Could you make by making it both more decent and more nate quality to the Communist rocketing one change in it?" He did, yes. effective. It did that through setting up of the towns. We didn't have a right to PLAYBOY: Yet Anderson gets on television rules to identify people properly rather just go and say, "Well, I think that town and takes shots at the Government—and than just calling them Communist in a needs to be bombed." That's different with particular glee at CIA. McCarthyist way; defining what their from sitting outside Saigon, launching COLBY: He's a newspaperman. He's sup- jobs were; dividing the leaders from the one of those 122 rockets and just letting posed to be critical of the Government. followers and saying we weren't interest- it slide into the middle of town, no mat- It keeps the Government on its toes. It's ed in learning who the followers were; ter where. all right with me. He has brought up a training people in the proper methods In terms of behavior of troops, I think lot of things. So it's all right_ He's doing of interrogation instead of improper we tried to control it. Now, the conscious the job that he's supposed to do under ones; issuing a directive that prohibited use of terror on the part of the Commu- the Constitution. He makes me very un- any involvement with assassination—not nists, the assassination of the village comfortable. I disagree with him rather merely that an American not assassinate chiefs—did we have a comparable thing? violently on some things. I think he's but that if an American heard of any Not after Phoenix, no. Mortaring of the wrong on some things. But that's the way such activity on the Vietnamese side, he refugee camps in order to drive people the system works. I like the system, even was to report it to me. I believe the pur- back into the countryside: Did we do though I don't like all the people we pose and effect of Phoenix was to reduce that? No. have engaged in it. that to an absolute minimum. Prior to PLAYBOY: You say we didn't have the PLAYBOY: There are still some newsmen the time Phoenix was set up. i.e., in right to go in and just bomb some place who may go to jail for not revealing roughly 1967, there was that kind of we felt like bombing; we may not have their sources. What do you think of that activity. And that kind of activity was had the right, but we did so, anyway. legal question? exactly why we set up Phoenix—to stop COLBY: In the populated areas, it re- COLBY: I think the Supreme Court is it. Now, to put billboards around town quired the concurrence of the local au- wrong. Doing the job of journalism in emblazoned with headlines stating my thorities. And there is some criticism of America requires the ability to protect admission of 20,000 people being assassi- whether or not that would be too easily your sources. I think there ought to be granted. On the other hand, you did a shield law by which a reporter can nated is just misusing the word, misstat- ing the facts. have the right, if you were in a helicop- refuse to testify about his sources. ter and were shot at from the ground, to [During a pause in one of the many PLAYBOY: How do you think Phoenix got its reputation? return the fire. conversations that make up this inter- PLAYBOY: What about the free-fire zones? view, Colby, without encouragement, COLBY: It got the reputation from the antiwar people who brought up charges COLBY: Free-fire zones were primarily jun- brought up the subject of the infamous gle areas with essentially no inhabitants against the military from an earlier peri- Phoenix program, part of the Govern. except the enemy forces and, in those ment's "pacification" program that re- od and applied them to Phoenix. And areas, you did not need the province sulted in 20,000 enemy deaths, which from my testimony before a House com- chief's a p provaL some charged were assassinations.] mittee in 1971. That wasn't anything fer- PLAYBOY: We moved entire populations COLBY: Have we talked about the pacifi- reted out or unveiled. My testimony in in order to create those free-fire zones, cation program or not? 1971 described what Phoenix was about. didn't we? PLAYBOY: Phoenix? I said that the results of Phoenix over COLBY: Whole populations moved out of COLBY: Yes. the three years were 28,000 captured, areas. I think you'd come out about PLAYBOY: You haven't yet. Do you want 17,000 amnesty and 20,000 killed. But I even Stephen. Half of them moved out to? could not say that no improper deaths because they didn't want to be under 156 COLBY: Oh, yes. had ever occurred. Well, my admission (continued on page 209) sSIS-aaa

Vietnamese generals were shocked by it, PLAYBOY INTERVIEW (continued from page 166) too. Can you say that the United States the Communists and half of them moved I would have to correct my statement Government knew that a revolt was out because they didn't want to be that we won. I say we didn't lose, but going to take place? Can you say that under the American bombs. So. in that it was kind of a draw on the ground. So the United States Government was en- sense, many areas were depopulated. I would withdraw that we won. I think couraging that coup? Sure. Not CIA. PLAYBOY: One of the most controversial you caught me well, and I'm sorry if I That decision to encourage the coup and widely reported battles of the Viet- was a little testy there. I got a little lost was made in the White House, there is nam war was at a place called Khe Sanh in the . . . excuse me, I had a chance no question about it. Should the United in 1968. Do you see an analogy between to think about it. States Government have estimated the Khe Sanh and Dien Bien Phu 14 years PLAYBOY: Thank you, sir. May we return likelihood that Diem would be killed in earlier? to the question of assassinations? Former the course of the coup? I think the as- COLBY: I.see a big difference. I think we CIA officer Frank Snepp, in his book sessment at the time was that the coup won in 'KW Sanh..suad. the French lost Decent Interval, says the follaiing about wasn't aimed at assassinating him. It in Dien Bien Phu. It was a pretty big Nguyen Van Tai, a Communist spy merely wanted to take power from him. difference. We never surrendered in Snepp was sent to interrogate in 1972, PLAYBOY: But that's always the case. Khe Sanh. just before the U.S. evacuated the area: COLBY: Yeah, I know it. I know it. And [Finding Colby's characterisation of "A senior CIA official suggested to South I say, therefore, the lack of facing that Khe Sanh at variance with other reports, Vietnamese authorities that it would be question is a subject of fair criticism. we approached this question again at a useful if he 'disappeared.' . . . Tai was It's different from CIA's being involved subsequent session. It resulted in the fol- loaded onto an airplane and thrown out in an assassination. It's a different thing. lowing—the. most heated discussion of at 10.00 feet „over tlw, Soath Chiqa Certainly, in a revolt, the fighting takes the interview and the only time Colby Sea." KO VY JAl'iltWili ALPI CILIT V place and people get killed. I mean, became openly agitated and angry.] COLBY: I never heard a word about that. there's no question about that. PLAYBOY: You said we won at Khe Sanh. I frankly have trouble as to whether it PLAYBOY: Henry Cabot Lodge was Am- Allow us to summarize what appears to bassador to South Vietnam at the time us to have happened there. By Novem- you were chief of CIA's Far East Divi- ber 1967, the 26th Marines were a rein- sion. What did you think of him? forced regiment. They were surrounded As for President Kennedy's COLBY: He's a brilliant fellow, a brilliant and outnumbered something like eight political analyst. He was very wise. His to one. They were barraged by the having any intention to political judgments—he was not a man- enemy continually. The Russian and kill Diem, absolutely not. ager, not an administrator by a long Chinese howitzers and rockets and mor- shot, and I don't think he ever pretend- tars sat up on CoRoc Ridge and pasted I know that he was ed to be. And I disagreed with him rath- them day and night. Khe Sanh was only er violently on the assessment of Diem. about two square miles inside the perim- shocked and horrified I didn't think he had sufficient time to eter and weather conditions made air appreciate the nature of the problem support very difficult. Route 9 was con- when it happened." and Diem's role in it. trolled by the North Vietnamese Army. PLAYBOY: Our understanding is that Am- Then, suddenly, the 304th N.V.A. and bassadors are a joke to CIA. the 825C N.V.A.left the area. They really happened. I think that the Sen. cowl What kind of joke? evaporated. And in one month, Khe ate and House intelligence committees PLAYBOY: A bad joke: They don't run Sanh went from being our symbol of should investigate a charge that serious. things. defense to an unoccupied piece of PLAYBOY: You never heard of it? COLBY: They do, they do. Lodge ap- ground. We rolled up the airstrip and COLBY: I haven't read the book, but I proved every step. went away and then 'ref began. Khe heard about the occasion with the Spe- PLAYBOY: There are two versions of that. Sanh was at best a stalemate for a time, cial Forces in '69, was it? There the COLBY: Lodge himself said many times and then it was nothing. And then Special Forces apparently did take a that CIA was meticulous in following we lost the entire country. Now you say man out and throw him into the sea. his instructions on the last days of the we won at Khe Sanh? PLAYBOY: CIA was widely charged with Diem thing. Lodge knew that people COLBY: Oh. dear! assassinations, but the Senate commit- like me did not agree with the policy; PLAYBOY: Americans who were in Khe tees came to the conclusion that the but, at the same time, I told the station Sanh when we finally pulled out could agency did not commit them. Yet assas- they were to do exactly what the Am- see the North Vietnamese walking in to sinations have been attempted and the bassador told them to do. That they take the position. assassins were supported by CIA money; were working for him. cotAY: Wait a minute! The French they were given weapons by CIA. Then, PLAYBOY: Then what you seem to be forces surrendered at Dien Bien Phu. of course, the agency could say, 'We saying is that Kennedy and Lodge are Formally surrendered to the enemy! The didn't kill." ultimately responsible for the Diem American forces never surrendered at COLBY: Well, I think there's a distinc- overthrow and execution. Khe Sanh. tion between your own idea of going out COLBY: Fundamentally, yes. The Presi- [At the next session, Colby launched and conducting an assassination, which dent's responsible, obviously. There was into this subject again before the ques- you can find in the case of Castro, and gement of the death of Diem. tioning could begin.] giving people the means to carry on no encoura If you wanted to make a reasonable COLLVIc Khe Sanh. I think there's one their fight. Obviously, when we give other thing I would say about it. Our military assistance or CIA weapons to criticism, you could say if you go into a discussion reflects the problem of under- groups, were giving the weapons so they situation like that, you have to antici- standing that war. Dien Bien Phu was can use them. That's what weapons are pate that that might happen. As for the classic military-versus-military force. for. The Diem thing was an assassina- President Kennedy's having any inten- which ended with the North Vietnamese tion and the evidence is very clear that tion to kill Diem, absolutely not. I know victory and the French surrender. Khe CIA had nothing to do with it. In fact, that he was shocked and horrified when Sanh was a military-versus.military force. I think General Big Minh made that it happened. which ended in kind of a draw. I guess decision on his own. I know some of the PLAYBOY: Because you're characterizing L at lt hi*i) ...),./..4,D4 . Ci4 A il fa rills c' Kaki /C1 If A. IMI CIA so benevolently, doesn't it lead COLBY: Well, I think there were some the dogs wake up. You don't have the 0 again to the question of whether or not uses of some kind of device like that dogs hooting at you. a CIA director could ever tell the public against dogs. PLAYBOY: All right. Whatever you say. M the exact truth? PLAYBOY: Dogs? Let's try another subject. On the subject Jol COLBY: My own view is that you can't cam: Dogs. It was to knock them out of nuclear weapons- it lie. You don't have to tell the whole in order to get into a foreign installa- COLBY: They're not my favorite subject, truth, because that would reveal a se- tion abroad and plant a bug; to make but go ahead, CIA has none, I know cret. But you can't tell a positive lie. I the watchdogs go to sleep for an hour that for sure, I know that. 0:1 At keep silent sometimes about something or so. They were shot with that device- PLAYBOY: What sort of concern is there that would be a further step of informa- 1 don't think that particular device but at the CIA that someone will just throw tion; but what I say is true, something like it. The dogs went to one together? PLAYBOY: When you go before a court of sleep. The people went in and did the COLBY: Great concern, great concern. I - law, :you' agree to tell the tilith, the job, came out and the slogs woke up don't think it's a concern abo-ut three whole truth and-nothing but the truth. later. And it was all done. Now, that fellows in a garage doing it. The real Shouldn't the American public expect wasn't assassinating them, it wasn't kill- problem is proliferation to smaller na- the same from its Government agencies, ing them. tions. with the obvious exceptions that relate [The question was asked again at a PLAYBOY: Such as Libya? to military security? subsequent session.] cotaY: Such as India. COLBY: Well, I think the American PLAYBOY: If CIA wasn't going to use PLAYBOY: That's not a smaller nation; people are conditioned well enough the dart gun and the toxins associated it has already tested a nuclear bomb. through modern advertising, through with it, why did it make them? What about those we don't know about? modern political rhetoric, through mod- COLBY: There's a thing called bureau- COLBY: I don't believe Libya is on the ern headlines, to be willing to look cratic momentum. You set up a little list. The problem is if you give the through a certain overstatement and group that's responsible for developing bomb to somebody who would be irre- understatement and work the truth out weapons, it'll develop lots of weapons. sponsible and use it, you have a serious of it. I think they don't expect that the You set up a little group that's respon- problem on your hands. words appearing in either the advertis- sible far collecting information about PLAYBOY: Such as whom? ing or news or columns of our papers foreign involvement in the antiwar COLBY: Any wild, half-mad dictator. I'm be inscribed in stone. movement, it'll keep on collecting. not going to name names. PLAYBOY: But we're discussing our Gov- PLAYBOY: You should name names. Why ernmen L. should it be an intelligence secret? Why COLBY: I don't think they expect either shouldn't the people know which na- more or less from their Government "There's a thing called tions are capable of unleashing nuclear than they do from the others. And I bureaucratic momentum. warfare? don't think they get either more or less. COLBY: I think it would be a little irre- I think they're about the same. You set up a little group to sponsible to say. If they haven't been PLAYBOY: That seems to be a pretty shod- made public, then that's a conscious de- dy picture of our Government. develop weapons, it'll cision not to make them public. And I COLBY: That's life. think I'm required not to make them PLAYBOY: So as far as this interview is develop lots of weapons." public. concerned, shall we then advise the PLAYBOY: Requirements aside, what do PLAYBOY reader to beware of misleading you think about our right to know? statements? [We decided to try the question one COLBY: It's a very delicate business. If COLBY: I would say it's going to be very more tune at yet another interview ses- the Government knew of a certain obvious to the PLAYBOY reader that I'm sion.] country that had a weapon and we were putting a favorable picture of American PLAYBOY: Let us try to get this straight working on that country to join in some intelligence into your pages. once and for all. Tell us again why nonproliferation agreement or even to PLAYBOY: Then the reader is duly cau- CIA made those weapons if it says it get rid of the weapon. 1 can see a circum- tioned. Let's move on to the subject of wasn't going to use them. stance where we should not publicize CIA weaponry. There was the Black COLBY: Because there was a section of the fact, You can hurt the negotiation Pistol—the famous electric dart gun that CIA that was responsible for providing process by making it public. You can was shown to the Senate committee and technical support to clandestine opera- ram the other fellow into a comer and pictured on the front page of every tions. And weapons, obviously, were he lashes out at you, like a cat will in major paper in the country. It was called potentially useful, an experiment with a corner. a Nondiscernible Microbioinoculator- a weapon using a device that would put PLAYBOY: Do you think that in the next 10 or 15 years a nuclear weapon will be meaning you could shoot a tiny poisoned some poison in you but then melt, so exploded in an aggressive manner? dart at someone without its being there would be no visible indication of detectable. COLBY: I think it is quite possible. Quite an actual wound, I think this was a dart COLBY: Yeah. possible. A single shot, two shots. are but one that would melt. PLAYBOY: And we had the toxins—shell- quite possible in the next Len years. fish toxin and cobra venom—to put into PLAYBOY: For the purpose of killing? PLAYBOY: Where do you think it might the dart gun. Why did we make those COLBY: Yes, sure. It's a weapon. happen? gadgets if we were not going to use PLAYBOY: So it was conceived with the COLBY: Who knows? them? idea of assassinating someone? PLAYBOY: We would assume you'd know: COLBY: Well, we did use the toxin on one COLBY: To kill him, yes. Now, the thing CIA has scenarios, educated estimates of occasion for Gary Powers' Hight. He had was used, as I said, against dogs with a where this might happen. a silver dollar with a little pin in the sleep inducer, not a killer. It's the same COLBY: These are estimates, There's no side of it, impregnated with the toxin, kind of weapon. firm knowledge there. I'm giving you and it would have killed him if he had PLAYBOY: That seems hard to believe. the outlines of how you would decide scratched himself with it. COLBY: Well, it was used. And it put which country would he involved. There PLAYBOY: That doesn't say anything the dogs to sleep, so that we could go are several countries that, if they were 210 about the Black Pistol. in and put the bug in. Withdraw and overrun and faced complete destruction, BSI

s would be quite prepared to possibly use COLBY: Congressmen have a lot to say COLBY: I'm not going to defend the Ad- O then:. But without naming names, be- about it. ministration's handling of it. I don't cause I think the name itself might PLAYBOY: You're missing the point: Why know anything about it. I don't know ▪ create troubles. weren't we told when that thing went why they did what they did, I don't 114 PLAYBOY: What about other technologi- up that it was out of stable orbit and know what their considerations were. ▪ cal weaponry that may be being devel- that it was going to come down? I'm just repeating what I read in the oped in secrecy and to which CIA is a COLBY: That I don't know. I mean, there open press. I have had no discussions privy? Our sources at places such as you're talking about something in the with anybody in authority on this sub- 01 Isli.T.'s Lincoln Labs have hinted at current Administration-1 just don't ject. awesome new weapons systems. Isn't the know. PLAYBOY: Do we have nuclear materials public kept in the dark about that sort in space? PLAYBOY: Knowing what you know, of work? though, about the way things work, what COLEY: I have no idea. cow: No, I don't think it is, really. PLAYBOY: You were running things at would the logic be? ' 1 think_oui knowledge of what our CIA. You should know. This has been weapons systems—are is pretty public. COLBY: Well, I think they've- Said they going on for years. were afraid to frighten everybody. PLAYBOY: Let's take a recent example. A COLBY: No, I don't think it has. I think Russian satellite containing 100 pounds PLAYBOY: That's the point: Aren't we that . . . the point is, I don't know of of enriched uranium fell out of the sky being kept from truths we should know? any such thing. The director of Central in Canada. To begin with, the public What are we, cattle? Intelligence worries about what's going hadn't even a due that nations were COLBY: No, no, no. You're dealing with on in a foreign country, not what our putting nuclear materials into space, a volatile subject. You're being careful weapons systems are. That's not his much less that they could fall back to of it and you don't, sort of, Chicken. chore. earth. Little-the-sky-is-falling over every little PLAYBOY: So be could be fairly ignorant COLEY: I really couldn't say whether the thing that might happen. Because soon- of our own capability? public knew about it or not. er or later, the public will turn you off COUP: Of some new weapons systems. PLAYBOY: You mean because something and not listen to you at all. The old It's not necessary that he know about like the Bulletin of the Atomic Scien- crying-wolf storyie, that. tists may have carried an item? PLAYBOY: Well. First of all, in the case of PLAYBOY: What about our own capabil- COLEY: If the Bulletin of the Atomic the Soviet satellite, the sky was falling. ity to use such things as lasers and so- Scientists covered it, then the question Secondly. we're not talking about crying called death rays in space? is whether or not the journalists took wolf, we're discussing 100 pounds of en- COLBY: That is a lot of science fiction at the technical information and made it riched uranium, which could have come this stage. into general knowledge. down in Washington or Chicago or New PLAYBOY: So, in other words, we do not PLAYBOY: No, the point is that the pub- York. Only it happened to come down in have any such capability at the moment? lic had nothing to say about it. the wilderness near Yellowknife, Canada. COW: You know, I really am not going

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The Good News! twin blades work together to shave you safer and closer than any single- blade disposable. And you get a lot more shaves, too. So get Gillette Good News! and you'll get a better shave. Gillette Good News! %Twin-Mods Disposable Razor. to talk one way or another about these 0 kinds of far-forward weapons systems, PI Look at it this way: intelligence systems. It would be irre- sponsible of me to do so, because I don't He never made you pay the insurance hike know what's there now and what I do know may well be covered tinder my when you got your driver's license. secrecy agreement with the agency. Therefore, I really think I'd better DI And you were going to give him leave this topic. ordinary scotch for Father's Day? PLAYBOY: Under our treaties with the Russians, we can still conduct biologi- cal-warfare research. If we were .doing that sort of work, we certainly would not make it public, would we? COM: I beg your pardon, we do make most of it public. The public has a right to know mast of this. Actually, it has the means to know most of it. If the public says it doesn't know anything, it means that the press hasn't done the job of translating for public interest the facts that are available, the materials known to the cognoscenti, the experts. PLAYBOY: Isn't it a little illogical to blame the press if the public is ignorant of biological-warfare experiments? COLBY: No, I'm not saying it in those terms. I'm saying that there's a lot of information available to experts. A great deal of it. If it doesn't become an issue, then the press normally doesn't cover it. It looks for the issues. If there's no par- ticular issue, then it gets circulation among the experts, but it doesn't get circulation as a broad public issue. In that case, the public can say. "Olt, I didn't know about that." This is a kind of feckless discussion between you and me. I mean, if you basically start from the position that there's a great conspira- cy running the world, then you can bring in all the evidence that supports it. My experience, however, is that there isn't a great conspiracy running the world. We run over all those old hob- goblin stories and we're really not get- ting anywhere. On the question: Isn't there something horrendous going on behind the scenes? the answer is basical- ly no. PLAYBOY: All right. Let's talk for a mo- ment about computer technology as it relates to privacy. A grand-jury witness in Iowa told one reporter of the exist- ence of a device called the Silver Box or REMOB, meaning remote observation, that allows an intelligence agency to listen in on any phone conversation by means of computer codes input through touch-tone phones. We've also heard of another system that can activate the microphones on all telephones, so that conversations in rooms where phones are located can be overheard even when the phone is on the hook. Would you care to comment on that? COLBY: Most telephones have micro- phones in them. PLAYBOY: We know that, Mr. Colby. COLBY: Well, I never heard of suds a Pinch 12 gear old Scotch thing. Sure, technology can do anything, 214 I guess, of that nature. But you can have

IN laws and rules and you can enforce scious of exactly that kind of problem. Third World. Three quarters of the them. You cannot tap a phone without Now, there is a certain benefit if he's an world is in the Third World. The most a judge's warrant. expert on the politics of a local coun- fai obvious threat is the fact that there are PLAYBOY: Are you saying that such capa- try; the company's going to benefit from 60,000,000 Mexicans today and there lw bility does not exist? it. It's inevitable to some extent. I don't are going to be 120.000,000 of them by 03 COLEY: I'm saying it could be. technical- think it allows them to make a killing, the end of the century. A goodly portion but it isn't. Because we have the ri but it may help them do business gen- of those are hungry and live in a cer- rules and requirements for a warrant. erally in that area. And that's the re- tain degree of misery. They are fairly al PLAYBOY: So you're saying we can do it, ward they get for taking the risk of easy to equip with advanced technology. but we don't do it? having a CIA guy use their name. They're becoming increasingly dis- COLBY: That's the way you handle all PLAYBOY: In speaking of cover arrange- pleased at the gap between our affluence technology. A gun can shoot you. But ments, another problem comes to mind. and their poverty. . - you donl let it be used for that. - And that is that if CIA- wants to con- There are 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 Mex- PLAYBOY: If a satellite can photograph duct domestic spying and wishes TO- deny icans who live in the United States today something as small as the inscription on it, it can work out a temporary arrange- and of the extra 60,000,000 who will he a golf ball, couldn't it be targeted ment with some other agency. In other around by the end of the century, there against individuals, perhaps even into words. CIA can lend an agent to the is no way we can keep a good 20.000,000 their homes? FBI and then say, "We don't do domes- of them from living in this country. We COLBY: I will speak hypothetically on tic spying." can reinforce the Border Patrol and this question. Hypothetically, yes, these COLBY: Not to the FBI; I don't think I they don't have enough bullets to stop devices could be used for a bad purpose. remember any case of that. We've as- them alL Or we can get a positive rela- The way you control them is by rules. signed them to a lot of different places. tionship with those people and help PLAYBOY: How good is our ability CO But if they go and work for that agency. them develop their own country. We know where enemy submarines are at they don't work for CIA any-more. have the most productive agricultural all tins& PLAYBOY: These labels begin to lose their establishment in the world and this year COLBY: Pretty good. That's all I'll say meaning. A lot of people shuttle back we are doing what is to me the obscene about it. I'm not going to talk about and forth among various intelligence step of cutting back production when that. agencies. millions of people haven't enough to eat. PLAYBOY: Is that classified? Mum So do a lot of people go back PLAYBOY: In thinking back over the ses- COLEY: Yeah. and forth between IBM and Westing- sions we've had, have we gotten uncom- PLAYBOY: Do they know that we know? house, Chase Manhattan and Ford Mo- fortably close to anything you can't COLBY: I'm not going to talk about that. tor Company and all the rest. But I don't talk about? PLAYBOY: If they know that we know find any great conspiracy in it. COLBY: I don't think so. We haven't where they are at all times, and we know PLAYBOY: Let's go on to something else. gotten into the area of some things I that they know, then why can't you talk Do you have any heroes? know but we still want to keep secret. about it? COLBY: Saint Francis is one. There are some operations, systems, that COLEY: Because I can't talk about . . . PLAYBOY: Why Saint Francis? sort of thing. You haven't asked about how good we are. Maybe they don't COLBY: To be very, very honest with you, those and don't want to ask, either. know how good we are. I'm not going he was a humble man. If you've ever PLAYBOY: What do you mean? to risk the lives of a lot of our subma- been to Assisi, I think you know what COLBY: Things I don't want you to ask riners by blabbing something that could I mean. That place is permeated with and I'm not going to talk about. There put them in danger. his spirit. Saint Francis was a young, are some things that obviously I know PLAYBOY: Some critics have said that fairly flamboyant, rich, spoiled brat. I wouldn't get near. And I'm not going through the use of satellite information He was wounded in one of the innumer- to suggest what areas they are, either. and the ability thereby to predict crop able struggles then and he began to PLAYBOY: Why did you agree to give yields in Russia and other countries, think about what he really should do. PLAYBOY this interview? CIA can use and has used that informa- He went home and decided he wasn't COLBY: Because I think it important that tion in commodities investment and per- going to be a rich spoiled brat anymore. our people as a whole have an accurate haps in manipulating the market, either He was going to live a simple life, to view of what American intelligence is by itself or through some of the large follow the law of love. And be did. He today, what it was in the past and how grain companies by allowing them access formed a whole congregation at a very important it is to our future. I think it to that information. Is there any truth difficult time for the Church. has been grossly sensationalized, and to that? PLAYBOY: Do you mind talking about that a wrong impression of American COLEY: No. In terms of playing the fast religion? intelligence is dangerous to the country. game to make quick bucks, you couldn't COLBY: I'm a practicing Catholic. Cer- And here's a chance to get a word to do anything with the money, anyway. tainly, I believe in God. I certainly be- PLAYBOY readers, which I hope will be The Government employees who run it lieve that Jesus was God and that Jesus persuasive, that CIA is different from aren't going to get anything out of it. came to this earth to launch a new mes- what they're familiar with from TV And we don't give favored treatment to sage. which I think is one of the most and the more sensational press. I felt individual companies. CIA has no sweet- inspiring messages in the world. It's that the Playboy Interviews us heart arrangements with individual com- called love. And it's a pretty exciting I've read— panies to give them a leg up. message. Walter Cronkite, Admiral Zumwalt and others—were very straight. I'm not ask- PLAYBOY: People who are asked to pro- PLAYBOY: Would Saint Francis have vide cover for CIA, using their com- joined CIA? ing for a sympathetic presentation, I'm panies, have an incentive, don't they? COLBY: No. Saint Francis was a pacifist. merely asking for an honest presenta- If a company, for example, is involved I'm not a pacifist, but I can still say that tion of what I'm trying to say about in commodities, an employee in that I admire some people who take a posi- intelligence. I think PLAYBOY will give company will have specialized knowl- tion farther out than mine in certain it to me. If it doesn't, I'll object after I edge, privileged information that could ideal directions. see it. [Laughs] A fair picture, that's all yield that company greater profits. PLAYBOY: What do you see as the greatest I ask—with the warts. I don't mind the COLBY: I think if they made a killing, threat to America today? warts' showing. They're real. 216 we'd cut off the relationship. We're con- COLBY: The over-all relationship with the a