REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Thursday, March 23, 1067.

Present : The Governor (Sir Peter discharged by the House of Keys as Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In detrimental to the economy of this the Council : The Attorney-General (Mr Island and repugnant to the wishes of D. D. Lay, T.D.), Sir Ralph Stevenson, the Manx people as reflected by their G.C.1VLG., Messrs J. B. Bolton, C. C. Mc- duly elected representatives; (2) be Fee, J. C. Nivison„ H. H. Radcliffe, with aware that H.M. Government in the Mr G. J. Bryan, C.M.G., C.V.O., 0.B.E., United Kingdom has (without consulta- M.C., Clerk of the Council. In the tion and the concurrence of the Manx Keys : The Speaker (Mr H. C. Kerruish, 0.B.E.), Messrs R. J. G. Anderson, H. Legislature), prepared legislation to D.. C. MacLeod. E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. effect such application to the Island; Kerruish, P. Radcliffe, P. A. Spittall, (3) be informed of the opinion of this W. E. Quayle, T. C. Faragher, A. H. Sim- hon. Court that the issue is of funda- cocks, G. T. Crellin. C. L. P. Vereker, mental importance to the constitutional J. E. Callister, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, relationship between the Governments C, E. Burke, G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. of the United Kingdom and the Isle of Devereau. R. MacDonald., A. S. Kelly, Man; (4) be graciously pleased to hear Sir Henry Sugden, K.13.E., CE., D.S.O., and accept any elaboration of the views with Mr T. E. Kermeen, Secretary to the of the Isle of Man Government which House. Her Majesty in Council may deem necessary. Your .Excellency, the peti- tion which is before the Court today probably marks an event unique in the PETITION TO HER MAJESTY THE history of the Manx constitution. Yet, QUEEN—DEFEATED. sir, the wording of the petition is very familiar. It is of course paraphrased The Governor: Item No. 6 on agenda from the wording of the Bill which we No. 1. I call upon Mr Simcocks, the passed.- We are a Crown possession and hon. member for Rushen. therefore when a Bill is passed. by the Mr Simeocks: Your Excellency, I beg branches of the Legislature and signed to move : That the Lieutenant-Governor, in Tynwald, it is in the form of a peti- Council, Deernster and Keys in Tyn- tion to Her Majesty the Queen to enact wald assembled, by humble petition to the statute in accordance with the terms Her Majesty the Queen, Lord of Man, of the Bill. Now, +sir, as I say, we are a do pray that, in considering any applica- Crown possession and the relationship tion to the Isle of Man by Order in between ourselves and the Crown is so Council of the provisions of any Act of ordered that the channel of communica- the Parliament of Great Britain and tion is the Privy Council. It is clearly Northern Ireland. constitu.ting Marine, set out, sir (and I refer to the speech of etc., 'Broadcasting Offences, Her Majesty Mr, as he was then David Renton in in Council may—(1) bear in mind that Parliament in Westminster in 1960)— a measure in similar terms has been it is clearly laid out, sir, that where a - 'Pr:" petiticn to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. 956 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

Privy Councillor happens also to be a seeks to create a situation under which Minister, he must act as a Privy Coun- a tradesman in Ramsey will be guilty of cillor and not as a Minister when in the a criminal offence if he supplies goods Privy Council itself. Now there is a to a ship on the outskirts of Ramsey curious thing about the Privy Council. bay, a ship which is doing nothing Many of the overseas nosssesions within Now, sir, in other words, the the Commonwealth are represented on extension of the English Marine Broad- the Privy Council. Ghana has a repre- casting (Offences) Act to the Isle of Man sentative, even the Channel Islands has would be to impose upon the Isle of Man one, but we, sir, have no one in the English criminal law, and to change our Privy Council to represent us and to criminal law, sir, our domestic criminal watch over our affairs, unless it be that law. E is no good saying that because the Home Secretary be regarded as it is wireless telegraphy it is not domes- occupying the breach. But then, sir, by tic—lt its. Now this to my mind is just the same token it might be said that he another example of the way in which also has the same job for the Channel successive British Governments have Islands, and I would have thought that chosen to ignore the rules which they the time might now well, come when themselves have made governing a rela- representation should be made for our tionship of the Isle of Man and the Island to have representations itself on United Kingdom. Sir, this matter is the Privy Council so that at least we very clearly laid down; it is laid down are on level terms with the Channel by precedent, that not even provision islands, Now, sir. the cause of this for the extension of an English Act can petition today is, as all hon. members be made in the Bill unless, and until, will know, the Marine Broadcasting Tynwald has asked for this to be done. (Offences) Bill. I am referring to the Now, sir, I believe that very few mem- English version of that, sir. Now bers of Tynwald even knew that pro- Mr Slater, the Assistant Postmaster- vision had been made in the English General, is reported as having said in Bill until the learned 'Attorney-General Westminster Parliament last week that made what I may, perhaps, call certain because the Marine Broadcasting admissions last wcek. Naw. sir, I do not (Offences) Bill concerned wireless tele- know what authority the Attorney graphy, and because the British Govern- General had for apparently 0.K.-ing the ment were in charge of wireless tele- inclusion of this provision in the Eng- graphy in the Isle of Man, that the Bill lish Bill. What I do know, sir, is that was not a domestic matter, and there- Tynwald knew nothing whatever about -fore that the British Government pro- it. I also know that Tynwald knew posed to extend its operations to the Isle nothing whatever about the provision of Man, notwithstanding the known for extending the Rhodesia Act to us. wishes of Tynwald. Now with great We had the surprising statement in respect to Mr Slater, silt., I would like to Tynwald last month, sir. The Attorney- submit that the real criterion of a Bill General said, "Ah yes, I did this, but it is not what it is about, but what it was too secret to be talked about." Too proposes to do. Now this particular Bill, secret, sir'? For Tynwald, the govern- sir, had it proposed to enact that it in ir body of the Isle of Man, to be told should be a criminal offence to broad- about? I do not know what authority cast on the high seas without a licence the learned Attorney-General has for from the British Postmaster-General, I these curious acts or the surprising would be the first to admit that this statements, but I do suggest, sir, that would not be a matter of domestic con- this is an activity which might proverly cern to the Isle of Man, but that is not and profitably receive the ,attention of what the Bill seeks to do. The Bill the Select Committee of this Court

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen--Defeated. TYNWALD 'COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 957 on' the constitution• of the Isle of it should be cogent to the members of Man, Now, sir, if I may return to this hon. Court, and that is our own the point. We have here a situation moral obligation to Manx Radio. It is where Mr Slater has issued a threat not, Your Excellency, a legal obligation.; that the Marine Broadcasting (Offences) by a strange fluke the agreement with Act will be extended to the Isle of Man by an Order in Council. I believe, sir, Manx Radio only said that We would that if that happens--if the British Gov- not encourage any broadcasting within ernment is prepared in the teeth of the the Isle o Man other than Manx Radio, express opposition of Tynwald to do and orl, course, those matters beyond that thing, if a single criminal Act of bur _con/alai'. the British Broadcasting the English Parliament is applied to us Corporation. and Independent Tele- against our will, sir, that that will re- vision. Now nobody had beard, or at move any barrier to our absorbtion into least I had not heard, arid I am quite the United Kingdom. Sir, Her Majesty sure that pirate radios were not, at that the Queen is-Lord of Man. We are Her time in contemplation, they certainly Majesty's most loyal subjects. This were not in. existence, they .were petition, sir, is an appeal to Her Majesty certainly not in the contea-nplation of the to protect us, her loyal subjects, from members of this Court who entered into the threat of aggression from Whitehall. the original agreement with Pye Radio, I beg to move. but the situation has arisen that just outside our jurisdiction—a few hundred Mr Irving: I beg to second and yards outside our jurisdiction—is sitting reserve my remarks. a radio station and, as I have said, we have in my submission, a moral The Attorney - General: Your obligation to Manx Radio to dhwhat we Excellency, I arise to oppose the resolu- can to support them, and not to support tion for the reasons that I shall give to Radio Caroline North. Now the hon. this hon. Court. I am very sorry to mernbeT for Rushen has questioned have to do so but I think it • is my certain of my actions. Now, first of all bounden duty. Now the reasons, the let roe say, sir, that I think the hon. grounds, for my opposition are these. member is over-stating the case when Firstly, that it is not right for this .he says that there are numerous hon. Court to embarrass Her Majesty's precedents for the United Kingdom Govermenrt in the United Kingdom in Government consulting us before insert- her endeavours to comply with inter- ing in their legislation, provisions for national obligations. I have said all this the extension of any of that legislation in the Legislative Council ad nauseum, to the Ise of Man by Order in Council. I have no doubt, and so I am not going As I have always understood the to repeat it all—I am just going to put practice, it is that they consult Tyn- the bare bones before the Court, 'because wald before actually extending the Her Majesty's Government can only legislation. They do not consult Tyn- comply with her international obliga- wald and say "may we put this in." tions di similar legislation, to that What in. fact happens, and this I know proposed in the United Kingdom is arouses the ire of the hon. member, applied to the Isle of Man. I do not and it Is understandable too—what in think that we should go to Her fact happens is, when. there is a Bill Majesty and ask her to bear in Mind which is going to come before and consider the matters set out in tb.e Parliament which includes such a petition. There is another very cogent provision, or is intended to include such reason indeed, Your Excellency, at least G. provision, the Home Office write to to me it is cogent, and I feel sure that me and I take the matter to Executive

petition to Her IVfajesity the Queen—Defeated. 958 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

Council. On one occasion some years the hon. member's argument that this is ago I took it to Tynwald in my a domestic affair. We know full well it innocence, and I got a very severe is not a domestic affair. It is an rocket from the Home Office for doing international affair. It is true that the so, because members of the House of Imperial legislation will create certain Commons knew nothing about this and criminal offences in the Isle of Man. here the matter was being freely dis- Now we had an opportunity to create cussed in Tynrwalcl. Hon. members will those offences ourselves, and we know bow indignant they properly get rejected 'that opportunity. That came when they see something which is the as a great surprlse to me, quite frankly, prerogative of the Legislature disclosed because as I have said before for many in the insular press before they them- years now I have understood, in fact I selves hear about it. I can assure hon. have known it to be fact, that where members that members of the House of Tynwald had a possibility of legislating Commons feel exactly the same way. for itself, it preferred to do so, but Tyn- Now it was only with some difficulty, wald has, on this occasion, as it appears Your Excellency, that I managed to to me, quite deliberately said—No, we persuade Her Majesty's Government in are not going to legislate for ourselves, the United Kingdom to permit me to you legislate for us and then we will bring these matters before Executive have a thundering row. Now you see, Council, and I had, to point out that virtually every piece of Imperial Executive Council was a body whose legislation which is extended to the Isle proceedings were by statute, confiden- of Man by Order in Council creates tial, and they agreed then that this criminal offences over here. It is could be done. Now this, I will grant nothing new. I would just cite to you, this hon. Court, is a survival from what or example the Post Office Acts, the used to happen ten years or so ago, Wireless Telegraphy Acts, the Customs when the Home Office would write to Acts. There is nothing new in this, the Attorney-General and say—"do you nothing new 'whatever, it is plain see any Objection to the inclusion of commonsense. Now I would say to hon. this?" And the Attorney-General would ,members too, that I do not think, I do then just write back and say—"no, no not agree, that Her Majesty's Govern- objection," without consulting anybody. ent have ignored the rules. They are Times are changing and we have pnot bound to consult us before includ- managed now to get consultation with ' ing- an extension provision, they did in Executive Council—to have consultation fact do so as far as it was possible to with Tynwald_ is a very, very difficult iii cto it, or as far as they consider it one indeed for the reasons that I have possible to do it. It was considered by just mentioned to this hon. Court. Now i Executive Council. They agreed to, I apparently have committed some fear- Anstead of applying the whole of their !lul crime by approving the form of a ilict to us, they agreed that it was draft Order in Council as a legal 'feasible and perfectly acceptable for us document: I thought I had said quite to enact our own legislation'. They have clearly that I was not prepared to say sent the form of the Order in Council whether I approved or disapproved to me for approval, riot only for what was in, the document. I merely i approval, but for amendment and approved it as a legal document Who every thing, purely in its legal aspect else is to do that? I think the hon. and before they make an Order in member has got a little astray here. Council. they will notify Tynwald of Now, I would say this also, Your their intention, and you must remember Excellency, that there is no merit in that at the moment the Imperial

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated.

TYNWALD COURT, MARCB 2'3, 1967 966

Government have a perfect right to that we can. see a position whereby the legislate for the Isle of Man, either Isle of Man might cash in, cash in. on directly or by Order in Council. That something that the United Kingdom has in fact never been seriously Wit not allow in their own country. disputed. Now, constitutionally and legally, the Imperial Government are There is a situation whereby the radio perfectly within their rights, perfectly station has come to the Isle of Man within their rights. Your Excellency, if purely in the hope that they might we have a battle here it is a battle in receive more favourable conditions from which the other side have all tile the Isle of Man than what they would weapons. If we want to have a stand- irom the United Kingdom. Commer- up fight for goodness sake let us do it cial radio of this kind is not permissive on a subject where we know that we in the Isle of Man. Throughout have a jolly good case, and I think the Europe the same exercise has gone on. hon. member on my left will confirm In the European countries ships have that there is probably a jolly good case been posted off the coast in order to coming up in the near future. But here avoid, the laws of the particular land, we .have; gentlmen, we have not a leg and each of those countries in turn have to stand on, and it, is only creating some taken steps to get rid of this illegal sort of difficulties, not very real method of broadcasting, and they have difficulties, but embarrassment for Her been successful. The very ship that is Majesty, and it is ignoring our in Ramsey bay was situated off one obligations to Manx Radio. I am very of our European countries before it was sorry to have to speak like this—I know shifted away. Now I know it is easy, it that popular opinion is against me, but is very much easier for us to say—let I feel it my bounden duty to do so. us turn this Bill down, let us petition There is one other thing, Your the Queen, let us beat the drum, because Excellency, and that is the reference to this is popular. How much easier it is Her Majesty the Queen as being Lord to do that than be responsible, than to of Mann. So we regard her here and have something in your spine and to very proud we are of the fact. But, show that we are responsible people. Your Excellency, it is not one of Her The Isle of Man has profited—it is true Majesty's official titles and this is some- to say, Your Excellency—in the past what in the nature of a state document, by having its own government and and I do not think that we should in- being able to do things which the clude in this document the words "Lord United Kingdom would not allow, and of Mann" and I therefore, Your we have done these quite legally. The Excellency, beg to move an amendment greatest example was the T.T. Races. to the effect that the words "Lord of Road racing was not permisSive in the Mann" be deleted from the resolution. United Kingdom and the Isle of Man The Governor: Does any other hon. Government did allow it. It did not member wish to speak? interfere in the slightest degree with the inhabitants bf the United Kingdom and Mr Nivison: Yes, Your Excellency, I so it was purely a domestic affair. They would like to speak on this particular have also attempted from time to time, subject. I will declare right at the out- and the last episode was the lotteries, set that I intend to oppose the motion and the United Kingdom in passing that is before us. I believe that there observations on the Bills that were are many things on which we in the Isle going through in the Isle of Man said of Man should fight to the death in order — "ob, yes, go ahead for your oWn to retain our right to govern ourselves. citizens, as long as you do not try and The situation that ds before us is purely sell these things to the United Kingdom

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. 960 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 22, 1967

citizens, because we do not allow our purely to cash in on a situation-, and own peop:e. to do it." But we still try they can see a weakness that we might to cash in on something that they them- fall for that the United Kingdom, selves would not allow. Now this is Government would not fall for. They another exercise not for the benefit of the Manx people, only in so far that are not paying us anything, they are they might hope to receive either some not paying the Isle of Man anything for free publicity (and this is the carrot it, they are certainly throwing a few that is being thrown to the donkey) scps by giving us some free publicity some free publicity in order to gain. and I would hope that a Government some favours— —it is all right For a local club or a Mr MacLeod: Which donkey is it lot of youngsters to say, let us have being thrown to? (Laughter.) them at any cost, or in an irresponsible way, but a government to petition Her Mr Nivison: I would have a very good Majesty the Queen an these grounds, I answer for the hon. member but will think really that we would be weaken- give it to 'him privately some time. I ing our own power of government for believe sincerely, sir, that the attitude the future when and if we had some- of these particular people — I Like to thing that really affected our own listen to this station—I know a lot of citizens.. This does not affect our own youngsters like to listen to this station, citizens. It is hoped that we might get but this is another point, this is some further :benefits from these people entirely another point. They are, at the that are out in the Irish Sea, but they moment, granting a whole host of can snap their fingers to us at any time favours—there is no question about it, the same as they have been snapping they charge other people a lot of money their fingers at all laws and regulations. to do what they are doing for the Isle It is alleged that they are meeting all of Man, and they are doing it in the one their obligations so far as performing hope that we in turn shall give them rights and so forth are concerned, it is something back. Now I would say that alleged now. This was not so in the most members in this hon. Court, when early stages. This is also perhaps treating matters of this kind, would another means they are using to try and treat things in a very responsible way, gain the favour of people who are a responsible way. I believe we can act associated with that movement. But irresponsibly in this direction and when generally speaking, they set up outside something • that really affects the the limits of the law. of this Island or citizens of the Isle of Man- comes along the United Kingdom in order that they we will have shouted so much over should not comply with any rules or things of this kind that our voice will regulations. This was their object, and not be heard. I think we should not use cash in on the fact that they were being this method, on something where we are able to do something that the people hoping to cash in on the United of the United Kingdom, are not allowed Kingdom citizens, not on our own • to do. Nobody in Blackpool can set citizens. We are hoping to cash in or up a station, or in Bournemouth, or allow something to happen for the Easlhourne, or anywhere round about. United Kingdom citizens—there is no They cannot set up a station. We have question a-bout it that Radio Caroline, not been allowed to set up a station., a if we were to say tomorrow, and if the home-based station on the Isle of Man; United Kingdom were to say tomorrow other than one that would broadcast —you can only beam to the Isle of Man, for our own people. So it is something Caroline would be sailing on the first outside the Isle of Man and really it is tide tomorrow morning. It is here the object of the exercise that we have

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 961 got to look at broadly. I know in this Bills which are before us, and I feel exercise they may be stopping some that in connection with that Bill there tradesmen in Ramsey from selling the are a number of points which could be provisions to the ship, but this is only taken up and suggestions could be made the means to the end to prevent some- that interference does exist with our thing which is unquestionably illegal, an own internal affairs, either by delay or illegal action, illegal too, as far as we by changes and alterations in matters are concerned in the Isle of Man where we should be sovereign, but this because we have already given a con- is not a matter of that kind; this is a matter where I think it is acknowledged cession in the Isle of Man to a company that the British Government does to act in the Isle of Man, and that handle the international affairs of the company is fulfilling its obligations, and Isle of Man, and as such they have apart from the international situation entered into certain agreements with which has been dealt with by the foreign nations for the benefit of the learned Attorney-General, the United Isle of Man amongst others, because if Kingdom have an international o-bliga- we are going to allow everybody to ton which they are bound to fulfil, and broadcast freely on any wavelength they cannot allow islands, off-shore they choose then we have chaos, and un- islands, to break down an international less somebody makes the rules—and we obligation, and I personally see that we', cannot expect to make them—then of if we petition the Queen on this, we are course we shall have chaos in broad- weakening our position in the event of casting. I feel, sir, that without saying us having to do something which really any more we have a very bad case on affects our own citizens and for that which to start a fight with the British reason I cannot support the resolution. Government, and I honestly believe, sir, that we should reject the resolution. Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I know that we still have a lot of business to Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, I come before the Court and I have no would just take up one point made bY desire to detain members any longer the learned Attorney-General and fol- than can be helped, but I must say, low up on that. Now, he said we have sir, that I do support the view that has a moral obligation to Manx Radio. I been expressed by the learned Attorney- have nothing but the highest of praise General in this matter. The main for Manx Radio. So far as they can, reason is this. That I believe that there and that is within this Island., they are, are irritations, there are matters on I believe performing a wonderful ser- which we could well argue with the vice for the Island. and speaking per- • Government in Whitehall, but this to sonally, they have been of the very my mind, sir, is not one of them. This greatest assistance and have gone out of is a very bad case and a case on which their way to help—for example, on mat- we are bound to lose. Now, if anybody ters of road safety, with which I am wishes to start a fight I think they particularly concerned, for which I should first of all make auite sure that thank them, and I give praise to them they are going to win it, and I do for what they are doing on this Island. know, as the'learned Attorney-General But Radio Caroline, to my mind, is com- has already Said, that there are matters pletely different. They are not, I be- even today on which arguments could lieve, in competition, and that point I be started, and on which we have a per- do want to make because although fect right to argue. One particular everybody else in this hon. Court may matter relates to an Income Tax Bill. I differ, may disagree with me, I think I was looking through letters that have have certainly at times some conscience. arrived recently relative to income tax Now what I feel is this. That in Radio

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. 962 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

Caroline we have got something which Mr 'MacDonald: Your Excellency, I we have asked for, which I believe that think the main crux of this issue, and we have a right to, and that is a I have every sympathy with the hon. high-powered commercial radio station. member for Rushen, on his motion, Now to me, does it really matter before the House to-day, but the crux whether Caroline moves two or three of the whole issue is the power of Manx hundred yards or not or whether she Radio. This is what worries the Court, may even come ashore. We have got this is what worries the members of the Caroline now. It may take us years to set House of Keys- We have been limited up our own similar station, but I realise in our own power for our own station. we are perhaps on a pretty sticky I have listened rwith interest to Sir wicket over this, and therefore I feel Henry, the hon. member for Ramsey, on that we should meet Her Majesty's Gov- Caroline. Personally I want nothing to ernment in Westminster at least half- do with Caroline ashore and in fact this way. Now it was stated that Radio House has already given rights. to Manx Caroline had, shall we say, fallen in line Radio which we cannot break without with performing rights, and certainly I their agreement, They have exclusive believe that is in fact the case, but I do rights to a commercial station within not believe' that she pays the proper this Island, and we just cannot bring copyright, or whatever it is called—it Caroline ashore, in fact we would get has a special technical term—from the nowhere if we brought it ashore. Now records that she plays. Now the other there is one thing which I am. not point I have is that possibly, if we do happy about which the learned nothing about this, that we might have Attorney-General brought up, and that a whole mass of these ships round our was these international regulations and coasts. Now whilst I have never had international obligations of the United the slightest indication from anybody Kingdom Government and the Post- that Radio Caroline interferes with the mester-General. We have been told by broadcasting on the marine lengths, un- the Home Office that the reason Manx doubtedly some other ships do, and Radio cannot have a station of say 50 therefore what I suggest—the learned kilowatt, 10 kilowatt and cover the Attorney-General said that we have northern areas of the British Isles or the power at all times to enact our own British Isles, is because they have legislation — we should enact legisla- certain international obligations to meet. tion to, I say, make an honest woman Gentlemen, they themselves are not of Caroline, and we can then insist that meeting these obligations. They are first of all we have no more than one members of the I.T.U. and they agreed Caroline, and so we would protect at Geneva, they agreed at Montreux, the possible interference with marine they agreed at Copenhagen, that stations broadcasting, and we would ensure in on the medium waveband would be that legislation that every copyright due limited in power to cover the areas, the was met, and also I feel we would be territorial areas of the countries to entirely within our rights of having a which the frequency was allocated. Now proportion of the advertising revenue the B.B.C. at the moment (and you can just in the same way as from the all, listen to this in the morning), the Casino, where we get a proportion of B.B.C. up to about quarter to seven are the profits as well as a reasonable broadcasting on 232 metres—the very licence fee, but I feel that we have got channel allocated to Manx Radio. They to make some gesture to meet Her are broadcasting to Europe on this very Majesty's Government at Westminster frequency themselves. The frequency at least half-way, and I have indicated which the Horne Office tell us cannot be a method of just doing that. used for broadcasting outside our tern-

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1067 963

tonal area. So the Postmaster-General currence and I doubt very much to-day is already permitting the British if it would hold up in an international Broadcasting Commission to break the court of law. The days are over when agreement made at Geneva, but ap- you can buy a people. We were never parently 'Manx Radio must not do it. consulted. The title was sold much This is what annoys me. This is the against the wishes of the Lord of Mann, thing, and this is the crux of the matter. in fact he was coerced into selling the What is good for B.B.C. is good for title, and so whilst I am prepared -to Manx Radio. If the British Government accept Her Majesty the Queen as Lord are prepared to permit the British of Mann—perhaps the title does not fit, Broadcasting Commission to break the as the iDeemster said, but I will accept international agreement made at her as that—I am not prepared to accept Geneva, wei.1 they should also be pre- King Harold Wilson as Lord of Mann, pared to permit Manx Radic to do it. or his Privy Councillors, We, I hope, Caroline need not come ashore if Manx still govern our Island and I would Radio has the power to broadcast as we advise the Court as chairman of the would like it to. As for taking a long Broadcasting Commission the thing to time, which Sir Henry suggests, to set go to Her Majesty about is the power of up a powerful station, this is eyewash. You can set up a very high-powered Manx Radio. Let us go and fight that. I transmitter, in fact, I myself have set know we have (been 'before, I know our up transmitters 20 times the power of hon. Sceak-er went with a party before Caroline during the war in a matter of to try this and fought -hard but got six weeks, it is all a matter of having the nowhere, but now we have a glaring equipment available and equipment is case of the British Government them- available to-day. selves permitting the British Broadcast- ing Commission to break the very inter- Mr Irving: Up on Douglas Head, 20 nationa: 'agreement they are shouting to kilowatts. us about. If they are going to break it Mr (MacDonald: Yes, plenty of equip- and allow their private station—their ment is available. You could set a monopoly to -broadcast to Eurepe on station (up, if Manx Radio was given the 232 metres, we also must be allowed to go-ahead by this Court, perhaps with broadcast—at least let us cover the the Postmaster-General's approval, to British Isles on 232 metres. Now you set up to-morrow -a hundred kilowatt can all listen to this in the morning as station. I would guarantee that would I say, you will hear the B.B.C. come on be on the air in three months, and this at quarter-VD-seven and say "This is the would solve an awful lot of problems, European Service of the B.B.C. broad- but with -regard to Caroline — I like casting on 232 metres in the medium Caroline, I listen to it occasionally, I like waveband." Quarter of an hour later a lot of the things they put on, the young you will hear Manx Radio come on with people like it, but fl cannot see quite its tiny little station on exactly the honestlY—although I am quite happy same frequency, doing what they are about the move to-day-4 cannot see us lim ted to, having followed Big Brother really getting anywhere with this par- about 15 minutes earlier. This is what ticular motion. I myself have always I would like to see changed and I think doubted the right of the Privy Council we have every right to this increased or Mr Harold Wilson or anyone else, to power of Manx Radio. Now with -regard interfere in our affairs. As far as I am to Manx Rad'o the Press last week—and concerned when the Britigh Crown I would like them to correct this, I did bought the title from the Lords of Mann check on. the tape, and I was mis- in 1765 they did so without our con- quoted as saying that I did not 'believe

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. 964 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 2:1, 1967

Manx Radio had an exclusive right to forward to get increased power for broadcast. They missed out the word Manx Radio, then Caroline will dis- broadcast' and I would like this appear and Manx Radio will be doing amended. They have every right in the the very thing that we are grateful to Isle of Man within the agreement, terms the Caroline organisation for doing at the moment. Advertising the Isle of laid down, to be the only station broad- Man outside our own territorial area, casting commercial-wise on Manx soil. and this is what we require. At the moment — I know you would give other stations—but at the moment The Speaker: Your Excellency, I think this is the agreement. I think the the hon. member of the Council, Mr learned At.orney-General would agree Nivison, struck the right note this with me on that. They are the only morning when he urged us to show a station given this commercial right to sense of responsibility. I think, sir, that broadcast on Manx soil at the moment, we must ask ourselves where our and I think it is they we must support. responsibility lies. Is it to the people of They have had a very tough battle, this Island, to ensure that they have a gentlemen, let's face it. It is a very full control of their own domestic affairs difficult thing to run a viable commer- or is it in pandering to Her Majesty's cial station for a population of 50,000 Government and acceptinz willy-nilly people with a set count probably of everything they like to throw at us aoout 40,000 sets. It just does not pay. whether or not their actions are I can never see it paying. At the moment constitutional in the true democratic I would say half of the commercial sense or otherwise? I believe that the advertising they are doing is coming case put forward by MT Simcocks this from the United Kingdom. Initially when they first opened up, I think the morning is not so much a Caroline issue proportion was something like 80 per nor indeed a Manx Radio issue, as an cent. local advertising, 20 per cent. U.K. issue as to whether or not we have advertising. This year it has crept up effective control over our own domestic to almost 50 per cent. U.K. advertising affairs. This is the point — forget and 50 per cent, local advertising, and Caroline for the moment, forget Manx the amount of advertising is slowly Radio. Are the United Kingdom Govern- increasing, but I cannot see it being a ment going to legislate in such a manner viable proposition on the present limited that Manx men and women can be power, and limited range of the station. turned into criminals in taking action Let us, gentlemen, definitely, Your Ex- which may have the effect of supporting cellency, let us go to Whitehall again— a legal broad:casting station operating I would be prepared to go again with in free waters? Now, Your Excellency, the hon. Speaker any time to fight this. such a situation if it happened in any Let us have increased power for Manx other community outside the United Radio, let .us forget the Marine Broad- Kingdom would be met with the opposi- casting Bill because it will be intro- tion of the local population, would be duced and it wilt be passed undoubtedly met undoubtedly by the opposition of at Westminster, and I doubt if we can the local nationalists, and I think rightly - do very much about it. We appear to be so. We have seen this sort of opposition more of a colony than certain other grow in communities throughout the colonies at the moment—a thing I would world, and you, sir, will be snore like to see altered. I would plea with acquainted with it than we are. We have the Court not to support this motion seen it grow and grow successfully in because 1 do not think it will get us communities that perhaps are not quite anywhere, (but please let us have some-: so advanced as ours, but our fault thing definite about Manx Radio and go lies in the proximity of this Island to

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen----Defeated. pyilwALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 965 the United: Kingdom shores. If we were the hon. member I think we must not safely away in the Caribbean we could lose sight of the fact that it is a get on with our own domestic affairs. If constitutional issue.. We have it laid we were safely in the Mediterranean down in the MacDermott Report that as far as domestic affairs go we have the this would be applicable too, but our right to legislate within these shores. If actions could possibly embarrass Her the British Government would have Majesty's Government in their presenta- come forward with some sort of legisla- tion of policy, and there is no doubt tion Which would have made it illegal whatsoever that in presenting a policy for that station to operate there, that on pirate radio they have been very would have been altogether different adept indeed at keeping their ear close They have already made it illegal for to public opinion. The Conservatives anyone but Manx Radio under limited did not proceed with. this particular power to operate either on the Island or legislation at a time when an election within its territorial. waters. That is was pending. So too, was the case with their right and we do not dispute it a laabour Government with .a tiny under the Convention. But, Your Excel- majority, they were scared, they did not lency. to .allow this to go unchallenged proceed with it, until today they come at this stage would be the most retro- along and tell us that in the event of our grade step as far as we, as a democratic being unwi:iing to comply on a domestic govemment, are concerned, and believe issue, they will apply this issue to our me, sir, 1 say to the Court in all sincerity Island and we know full well that the that you are not without strength. We other parties and possibly the United have friends throughout the world Kingdom themselves are not necessarily today, it is no longer a question of a clean as far as this matter is concerned. little island being pushed aside like that. So many of the signatories to this inter- Through the medium of the national obligation that has been men- whose meeting we had yesterday, we tioned, break their international obliga- can rally to our support people who tions with impunity. Now, we have been believe in a spirit of democracy and told we must be very good today and freedom. So let us fight knowing full we must not embarrass Her Majesty or well that we are in the right in this ease indeed Her Majesty's Government be- and let us retain those rights that we cause they have international obliga- have fought for so hard over the years tions. But, hon. members, we have and which have been so hardly won by obligations to the Manx people. As far our predecessors. Your Excellency, I as we are concerned this is domestic, it support the resolution fully. is a matter for the Isle of Man as to whether or not our .people are prepared Mr McFee: What I was going to say, or allowed to service any organisation YOUT Excellency, it appears to me that operating legally in free. territory. We this resolution is going to fall, because have been told this morning—don't fight even if there is a majority in the Keys unless you can win. Believe me, if this I would estimate that the Council will Island was to have adopted that line be in the majority against, and, Your over the years we would have been Excellency, in. my opinion, this would absorbed years ago. Unless you fight be rather unfortunate because it is so and keep on fighting for your rights you involved. The wording of the resolution will soon find you have no tights. Now, is such that should this be turned down Your- Excellency, I feel that, as .1 have by Tynwald it would be in effect an said earlier, this is a matter that does indictment .against the wisdom, the not really concern the stations. I know abilify and the action taken by the it is difficult to detach it, but along with House of Keys in rejecting a Bilk that

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. 988 TYNWALD ;COURT, MARCH n, 1961

was not acceptable to them, and it would the subject matter of the resolution and be a calamity I think, that if Tynwald, deal. with it at Select Committee level, realising the purpose of this resolution and I move that, sir, as an amendment. —it is not to support Caroline, it is not to support piracy on the air, it is based Mr Irving: Your Excellency, even upon the principle which has already though the agenda this morning, sir, been enumerated by the Speaker and shows that one thing that is coming other members of the Court that this is betore us is a petition to Her Majesty really a challenge to the right of the the Queen, we see that the Legislative Isle of Man people to govern them- Council. can hardly muster a quorum, selves. sir. As a matter of fact on two occasions since we sat this morning there has not Mr Nivison.: Nothing to do with them. even been a quorum in the Council. Your Excellency, I beg to move that the Mr McFee: Mr Nivison has mentioned House of Keys retires to its own the fact that one of the reasons why chamber to further consider this Manx Radio has not been permitted any question. power at all is because it is going to The Governor: Well in the interests affect the national boundary of Engand. The Attorney-General comes along and of saving time I will now adjourn the he says — this legislation has been Court. effected because of international agree- ments. When it suits England they will Mr Kneale: Sir, you haven't Had a deal with the Isle of Man at national vote from the Keys. You need eight to level, with national Lrontiers and say— support this move to our own chamber. you cannot broadcast to the people of England. But on the other hand when. it The Governor: Standing Order No. 19. suits them again they say — this is breaking international agreement, the The Speaker: The question has been agreements of the world and other put, Your Excellency. countries and so on and so forth. It all Mr Kelly: I beg to second it. depends what the argument is about. they can suit themselves and in this The Speaker: In which case, Your sense 1 say, Your Excellency, it would Excellency, with your permission I will be a calamity from the point of view, ask for a division to be taken in the particularly of the House of Keys in House of Keys to indicate whether it this matter, in the way that this is has the necessary support. That is for worded, that Tynwald should make this or against a move to our own chamber. resolution fall. Now there is a Select Committee of Tynwald appointed for For Messrs Anderson, MacLeod, the purposes of seeking better relations Kerruish, Radcliffe, Spittall, Quayle, and seeking to discuss these very Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, Vere- particular matters with Her Majesty's ker, Corkish, Irving, Burke, Dever- Government. I would suggest, sir, and eau, MacDonald, Kelly, Sir Henry I move an amendment that the material Sugden and the Speaker-18. and substance of this resolution, rather Against : Messrs Crowe and Kneale than being turned, down flat and giving —2. every support to the Imperial Govern- ment, to say—oh, Tynwald+ is with us The Speaker: Your Excellency, the — that we refer this resolution to the resolution having received the requisite Select Committee of Tynwald so that number of votes, may we have your per- they. may have regard to its material and mission to withdraw, sir ?

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Defeated. REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Thursday, March 23, 1967

PETITION TO HER MAJESTY TEE for rejecting the B11. Several members QUEEN—DEBATE CONTINUED advocated using the Bill as a means of Mr Callister for North Douglas to-0k bargaining with the British Government his seat. for greater rower for Manx Radio, and then voted asf.ainst the Bill and thus The Sneaker: Your Excellency, I have threw this so-called bargaining power to report to you, sir, that the House of away. One member said he was voting Keys having rejected the Marine Broad- against the B'll to let the British casting (Offences.) Bill, re.affirms its support for Manx control over domestic Government know we were an indepen- issues and has accordingly requested dent n:' ion and not lackeys. Another Mr Simcacks, the hon. member in charge said he considered the Bill was designed of the resolution that we were consider- to suit the ends of the United Kingdom ing on adjournment, to place the Government and in the interests of the resoUtion before Tynwald. In the event B B.C. and the G2.t(3. monopolies. Yet of Tynwald rejecting the resolution the another said we should allow Caroline hon. member has been requested to to stay in the hope that she might be table it under Standin2 Order 70 for very grateful indeed and might pay consideration kt the next sitting of something for the privilege out of the Tynwald, and I have to inform Your considerable fees the organisation Excellency that in the event of Tynwald received from advertising. I do not know reject:ng that resolution, on that occa- how that would help the Island to get sion, then the House of Keys will itself the six million we have quoted. This petition Her Majesty in the terms of the sounds like crumbs from the rich man's resolution placed before the Court by table to me, and definitely puts us in the hon. member for Rushen. Thank the position of lackeys of Caroline. Yet you, sir. another member said he was voting against the BPI in order to have one The Governor: In view of what the pragmatic bite in the direction of Mr hon. Speaker has said and in view of Harold Wi:son. He was not even going the passing of time, do you think we to get his teeth in! It is no good could now put the question without arguing that the publicity for the Island further speeches? put out by Caroline has resulted in a Mr Kneale: No, sir. Your Excellency. tremendous increase in our visitors, for the terms of this resolution are quite a look at the passenger returns will inaccurate. For example, paragraph 1 show just the opposite. There has been suggests that the Maxine Broadcasting a drop in stayiner visitors -since Caroline (Offences) Bill was disctharged: by the arrived. The yearly average for four House of Keys as being detrimental to years prior to arrival amounted to the economy of the Island..I have read 368,000 compared to 354,842 for the two the debates carefully and nowhere in years since arrival, and I am not count- them can I see this given as a reason ing last year because of the strike. So

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Debate Continued, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 973

how can we complain that the Bill was accurate statement. The chairanan of detrimental to the economy of this the Tourist Board has appeared on Island? Paragraph 2 says, The United television treatening to take the matter Kingdom Government has prepared to the United Nations if the British legislation. to include the Isle of Man Government dare to touch our Caroline without consultation with the Manx Legislature." This is not so. The Manx by Order in Council, and now we have Government was consulted many this proposed appeal to Her Majesty the months .ago. Have members stopped to Queen. What a pity 'we have not shown think how the Marine Broadcasting the sarn7Waii- dI determinaTion to (Offences) Bill came to be introduced fight for our own local station, Manx into the Manx Legislature? The United Radio, wIlich we have legirtimateser Kingdom Government did not order it up; in fact, some members of this Court to be so introduced. The Attorney- I-0e taken sides against her. We have General did not introduce it off his own heard a lot of talk about standing up to bat. The Broadcasting Commission d,id Big Brother and some have suggested not suggest it or have anything to do that the B.B.C. is Big 'Brother, and yet with it. The plain fact is that the some members have taken sides 'with previous Executive Council gave in.- the B.B.C. in an attempt to stop Manx structions to the Attorney-General last Radio tram doing something which by September to prepare the Bill and have their agreement with the Manx Govern- it introduced into the Legislative ment they are obliged to do. I refer to Council just prior to the Keys' general the broadcasting of the T.T. Races. The election. In fact it was up as an election Manx Government's agreement with "Aunt Sally" and then the very people Manx Radio insists on a continuous who had. asked for its introduction went running commentary of the T.T. Races, round their constituencies saying they and Manx Radio did a wonderful job of were going to vote against it. it last year. But they upset the BBC. by so doing. Then the B.B.C. approached The Speaker: On a point of order, sir, the Tourist Board, who in turn if the hon. member has to make state- approached the Broadcasting Commis-. ments, it is perhaps as well he should sion and asked. them to stopManx Radio make accurate statements, and if you carrying out this agreement with the would permit me, sir, to clarify this Manx Government. The BJBC. claim's point as the then chairman of Executive that they had been given an exclusive Council, I would state that Executive right to broadcast the T.T. Races by the Council insisted that legislation be A.-C.U. The Attorney-General ruled they placed before the Manx Leeislature for had no such exclusive right and all that considerat!on. It did not indicate any the A.-C.U. could give them was exclu- support. It regarded it as a measure sive rights to broadcast from the grand- which should be considered by the stand area. The Manx Radio broadcast Manx Government, and the Home Office did not interfere in any way with the agreed to that consideration. B.B..C.'s broadcast. The [Manx 'Radio's broadcast was for local consumption. Mr Kneale: Obviously I have not The B:B..C. were broadcasting for those made any inaccurate statements. I said outside the Island. Despite this, the that it was introduced at the request of Tourist Board has continued to press the Exeeuive Council and the very the Broadcasting Commission to curtail people who had asked for its introduc- Manx Radio, and why? Because tion went round their constituencies Big Brother B.B.C. has threatened to saying they were going to vote against boycott the Isle of Man unless he gets it, and I will repeat that, and that is an this way over this. Now I fail to see the

Fetitiop to Her Majesty the Queen—Debate Continued. 974 TYNWALD COURT. MARCH 23, 1667

difference between the two cases. The Mr Corkish: I doubt it. Not by the United Kingdom Governnient has tone of the speeches that I have heard threatened to sink Caroline by existing in this Court and down below. Now the Orders in Council to cover the Isle of position as I see it is that if the Select Man. The B.E.C. is using threats of Committee is appointed, and they go boycott to try and cur:ail Manx Radio. away, they will get some consolation. Are members realy s'ncere in their They have never approached the Labour desire to get more power for Manx Govemtnent vet on =this point for a Radio or are they prepared to stand by and watch our legitimately-born Little stronger station. They may get a Brother—Manx Radio—bein squashed different attitude altogether. Let them by Big Brother BB.C.? You can't have go away before th:s Bill actually comes it both ways. I know who 1 am prepared in operation in England. If we get the to fight for and it is certainly not adongest station in the Isle of Man I Caroline. I recently heard an English am sure everybody would be happy, Cons votive M.P. °raisin they would say—let them sink Caroline. Man for throw.ng out the B_zo.a.deacting So let us procesd and get the thing done .E.D.L_claiirrling that Caroline and her urgently by the . Select 'Committee of friends are notta sit suelcri_ple_sLfj his Court, go away to London and 1 p-FiVOTetenarisernever heiel- -Stich interview the Home Office and the rubbish! He obviously forgot that it was Postmaster-General. his Party when in power who refused to al:ow the Isle of Man a powerful radio MT Callister: Your Excellency, I am station, and who at that time were talk- not in a position to join in the debate, ing of introducing legislation to sink the but I do ur're you to accept this amend- pirates. I see no merit at all in this ment and approach the authorities in resolution, sir. As I pointed oui.—.11. the United Kintldom and consider this ,h terms of it are 'TãEd get matter seriously and wisely. There is a very strong feeling and I think that by iq i ..i. . abs2.11 .,tt gi y_ _la cr.. w_ her_e_and I intend to support the amendment moved by Mr a deputation to the proper authorities I Meree, that this matter should go to the think a good deal more can be obtained committee that has already been set up for the Isle of Man than putting our to deal with matters dealing with fingers to our noses. constitutional relations with =the British Government. . The Governor: Does Mr Simcocks wish to reply ? The Governor: May I first of all welcome back the member for North Mr Simcocks: Yes, Your Excellency. Douglas. We are glad to see him even Firot of all I would like to congratulate without his flower. (Laughter.) the learned Attorney-General for the skill with which he threw the red her- Mr Corkish: YOUT Excellency. I am ring of Caroline into the debate. Of also :reins, to support the amendment course he knows, and anybody else who that has been moved by the hon. has really considered this subject care- member Mr McFee. Now I am just fully, they. know too, that the terms of beginning to wonder—'I have been bear- the English Bill, which will shortly be- ing quite a lot of soeeches and one thing come an Act, are such that whether or and another, that if it was the Conser- not the Isle of Mian is brought in, very vative Government that. ras putting this soon after the passing of the English forward, would it be the same Bill, Caroline and all the other offshore opposition? stations will go out of business, by the simple fact that the British Act will Mr Irving: Yes. make it illegal to buy advertising time.

Petition to Her Majesty the Queen—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 06

Now we can talk nonsense as much as in any colour you like, providing it is we like. We can talk about inter- black." and we can have as much self- national agreements and the like, we government as we like, provided it suits all know if we are prepared to think the British Government of the day. Six, and we are straightforward with our- the remarks of the hon. member for selves, we know that it is not necessary West Doug:as, Mir Kneale, also attracted at all for the Isle of Man to become my ,attention in that he claimed that implicated in this matter to enable the the wording of the petition was in- British Government to carry out its accurate because the petition said that international obligations. The mere fact the matter had not been brought before of saying that it will be a criminal the Igle of Man Legislature. He then offence to purchase advertising time on said that it had, because the learned an unlicensed station is Quite sufficient Attorney and he had had...it. Now, to make absolutely certain that the erudite as is the hon.. member for West British Government will fulfil its inter- Douglas, and learned as is the Attorney- national obligations, and I suggest, sir, General. I do not think that these two although I would refute the remarks of gentlemen together even with the help the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr of the Executive Council, amount to the Corkish, that this is a party matter, it .Legis1alure of the Isle of Man, so if we most certainly is not. I have been very are going to talk about accuracy careful in the series of debates we have perhaps it might be a good idea if the had lately to refer to successive British hon. member practised it. The other Governments, and I say most sincerely point I think that could be made with, that the Tory Government as far as I fairness is this—that if we fall into the can see are every bit as bad as any trap of agreeing to hilve this matter other. But. sir, I do think this. That referred to the Select Committee, by the the particular personality of the British time any action can be taken the Bill, Prime Minister at the moment seems to which has already passed the committee me to wish to have this particular lily stage at Westminster, will be passed and gilded, but I do say it is Quite un- this Order in. Council made. Sir, I realise necessary for this Act to be passed in that there is a danger that YOu gentle- the Isle of .Man or extended to the Isle men on the upper bench might feel that of Man in order to enable the British your loyalty is a little different from Government • to carry out its duties. what I would conceive mine tobe, and it Another curious point made by the may be if the Legislative Council will learned ,Attorney was that we had been riot favour this, but 1 do appeal to them, given the opportunity of passing' the sr, to back the Mouse of Keys in this Bill ourselves. Sir, if I was taken to the matter in order that we may truly end of the pier when the tide was up protect our right for self-government. I and I was pushed in by somebody a could not care less whether Caroline thousand times bigger than myself, and sank today and whereas I would like I complained at 'this, I would not Manx Radio to have that extra power, consider it then much comfort to be told I regard extra power for Manx Radio as by him well, I gave you the oppor- being a very small "beer" indeed com- tunity to jump in — because that is pared with what I regard as the danger exactly the alternative that the British to our constitution by the bullying Government gave .us. It is the same tactics which we are being subjected to alternative, sir, that Mr Henry Ford today. The Attorney-General has said gave to all his purchasers when he said we have not got a leg to stand on. I to them, "You can have your Ford car suggest, sir, that we have got three legs

Petition to Her ...Majesty the Queen—Debate Continued. 1)76 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 28, 107 to stand on, and it is about time that not six members voting for, but as the Keys only the Isle of Man but the Legislature have voted against it the amendment who represent it—and I don't mean just fails. I now put the resolution. Those in the House of Keys — I mean those favour of the resolution say aye, those members who have been elevated by the against say no. House of Keys to these lofty positions, A division was called for and voting those members who have served in the resulted as follows:— House of Keys, but find themselves on the bench by other matters, I would ask In the Keys— them to support this matter in order For: 'Messrs Anderson, MacLeod, that the Legislature of the Isle of Man Crowe, Kerruish, Radcliffe, Spittall, might adequately demonstrate the feel- Quayle, Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, ing of the people of this Island that if Vereker, Irving, Devereau, Mac- we do not take this step to protect OUT Donald., Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden self-government, our right to domestic and the Speaker-17,. self-government, it may be that we will all be out of a job shortly. I implore Against.: Messrs Canister, .Corkish,. the Council to support this resolution,: Burke and Kneale-4. The Governor: I shall first put Mr The Speaker: Your Excellency, the McFee's amendment which is that this resolution carries in the :House of Keys, matter be referred to the Select 17 votes cast in favour, four votes Committee of Tynwald dealing with against., sir. constitutional matters. Those in favour In the Council— say aye, those against no. For: (Nir MeFee-1. A division was called for and voting Against: The Attorney-General, Sir resulted:— Ralph Stevenson, Messrs Bolton, In the Keys-- Nivison and Radcliffe-5. For: Messrs Canister, Corkish, Burke The Governo-r: The iresoltition fails in and Kneale-4, the Council, one vote being cast in favour, five against. Against: Messrs Anderson, MacLeod, Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, in Crowe, Kerruish, Radcliffe, Spitta11, view of the results of the voting in the Quayle, Faragher,Simcocks, Grellin, Legislative Council, I rise to give Vereker, Irving, Devereau, Mac- notice under the provision of Standing Order Donald, Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden 70 that I propose to raise this matter and the Speaker-17. again at the next sitting of this hon. The Speaker: The amendment, Your Court_ Bxoellency, has been defeated in the The Governor: It will be put on the House of Keys, four votes being cast in agenda accordingly. favour and 1.7 votes against.

In the Council— • For: The Attorney-General, Sir Ralph GAS UNDERTAKINGS — PROVISION Stevenson, Messrs BoLton, McFee, • OF A PIPELINE BETWEEN Nivison and Radcliffe-6. CASTLETOWN AND PORT ST. MARY GASWORKS — APPROVED Against: Nil. IPP The Governor: Now if we may move The Governor: The amendment' has to item 30 on agenda No. 2. I call on the been passed in the Legislative Council, chairman of the Finance Board.

.Gas Undertakings—Provision of a pipeline between eastletown. and Port St. 'Mary Gasworks—Approved. TY'NfWAII5 QOURT, !MARCH 23, 1667 971

Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to pressure. The reasons for the decision move:— are firstly, that no large and expensive That Tynwald approves of a six-inch gas pumping equipment is required. main being laid between the Castletown and Secondly, no pu.mp:ng equipment at all Port St. Mary works at a cost not exceeding Z28,000. is required at Port St. Mary as the pressure in the gas-holders there is Your Excellency, if hon. members are sufficient to feed gas back to .Castletown prepared to agree, I am very happy to as and when required. I should say it is accept the agreement, sir. intended to take full advantage of all MT Mcree: No, not without comment. the gas-holders' storage capacity at both works although the production will take Mr Bolton: Well, I can give a consider- place in C..astletown. Thirdly, if at 'some able amount of information, sir, a good time new mans are laid in Colby/ deal of information was given in the Ballabeg area, no pressure reduction Treasurer's letter of January 9th which equipment will be recjuired. It has been was sent to all members of Tynwald. suggested that P.V.C. plastic pipe cou:d The matter was fully discussed in be used This would be satisfactory for Tynwald in January and it was then natural gas or gas from oil, but certain explained that after the purchase of the constituents of coal gas attack P.V.C. undertaking it would be necessary to and cause rapid deterioration. It has lay a pipeline between Castletown Gas- been estimated that P.V.C. pipe might works and the works at Port St. Mary.. have a life of about four years, whereas Since then, .arrangements have been cast iron will last indefinitely. Suitable made with the railway company for a alternatives would be steel or ductile pipe to be laid along the railway track. pipes, but the cast would be in the After a lot of negotiation it has been neighbourhood of 60 per cent. more, and possible to get a. very quick delivery of for use in. these conditions cast iron is the necessary pipes, 'tenders have been quite satisfactory. The length of the invited by the Treasurer for laying the pipe is about- 8,300 yards and the pipe pipeline and the tenders are returnable is in 1.8ft. lengths. In -case anyone doubts on or before noon on March. 31st, and it the need for the pipe it should be made is stipulated that the work shall be clear that it will eventually result in completed by June 30th. Although the more economical production of gas for exact cost is not known, it is estimated the whole area of supply and it will fit that the sum asked for in the resolution in with any future scheme for the will be adequate. The cost of the pipes provision of gas for the Island as a is known already, but it is not my whole, whether it be distributed from intention. to disclose it as it could well Douglas or from sma:ler re-forming influence the tenders for pipe-laying. It plants. Some hon. members may have is, however, essential that the Treasurer doubts about the capacity of Castletown should be in a position to give to produce all the gas required for the instructions for the work to start at the area of supply. Although recording gear earliest possible moment if supplies are has frequently been out of action in the to be assured. The contract calls for the past year or two, it is thought that the pipe to be covered -by at least 30 tinches peak demand in Castletown. is about depth of soil. Very careful consideration 65,000 cubic feet per day. 5,000 cubic has been given to the matter and the feet is attributable to King William's best possible advice .has been obtained. College which closes down in mid-July, It was finally decided that a six-inch and peak demand in Part St. Mary and cast iron pipe was the most suitable Port Erin is estimated to be in the order which will convey gas under low of 90,000 to 100,000 cubic feet per day.

Gas Undertaking's—Provision of a pipeline between Castletown and Port St. 'Mary Gasworks—Approved. 978 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 17

Here again certain large hates have Treasury of the Isle of Man and its gone over to bottled gas or other forms intricate relationships with the Imperial of heat in the past year or twa. In Treasurer from time to time. Let him Castletown there is a bed of six retorts get on with that job. Take the gas capable of producing 65,000 cubic feet a undertakings away quickly from him, day, and there is a brand new bed of and let us get what Tynwald desires— seven retorts all ready for use, but not a proper board or body to manage the yet brought into use, capable of produc- policy of gas undertakings. We find that ing 75,000 cubic feet ,per day. All this already they are talking about future has been paid for and we have plant policy; about the extensions to Colby capable of a total production of 140,000 and Ballabeg which was never con- cubic feet per day. The engineers advise sidered by anybody before. Now they that this could easily be brought up to have got big ideas—the whale Isle of 180,000 or 200,000 cubic feet per day by Man is to be covered with gas. Who is the manufacturer at Castletown. of lean- determining this policy? I want to bring producer gas with 'butane enrichment. to your notice, Your Excellency, it is the Part St. Mary is at present producing wish a Tynwald that this should be 55„000 to 65,000 cubic feet per day and quickly brought about, and I am not is not yet running at full capacity. opposing, think that the laying of the Storage capacity at Port St. Mary, pipe is an essential thing, but I do taking account of both gas holders is regard the resolutions of Tynwald and 1,20,000 cubic feet, and at Castletown the requests of Tynwald that considera- 55,000 cubic feet, giving a total storage tions should be quickly given to a capacity for the whole area of 175,000 proper board to manage this, as one of cubic feet. I have been assured that full urgent importance. and adequate supplies can. be guaran- Mr CreLlin: There is only one thing teed once the pipe is installed., and I that I would like to Say, Your conclude, sir, by pointing out that this Excellency, in this mattes, to point out is a matter of considerable urgency if to the hon. chairman of the Finance gas supplies are to be ensured through- Board a fact which he probably knows out the south of the Island this summer. already, that the figures which he has I beg to move the resolution, standing given us, reassuring to a certain extent in my name. though they may be, do indicate that we are still riding the razor's edge in The Attorney-General: I beg. to second, the Port St. Mary and the Port Erin Your Excellency. area, and I do hope that he will see to it that the recommendations of the hon. , MT MciFee: Your Excellency, I just member for Council, Mr McFee, are want to comment here again, sir, and carried into effect as early as possible say that here I consider it is a deliberate because I feel sure that one day's flouting of Tynwald. For months now breakdown in the south of the Island the question of appointing some control- and we are going to be back in the same ling body or board, even suggested by boat as which we were last year nay hon. colleague Mr Simcocks, some because the production at Castletown utility commercial body that could and Port St. Mary from the figures manage the whole policy of gas supplies which the hon. chairman of the Finance and the gas undertakings taken over by Board has given us are clearly the government. 1 have every confidence inadequate. in Mr Carney as a finance officer, but do not think that he was appointed to Mr Bolton.; Just one ward, sir. After this job to manage a gasworks. He has listening to the hon. member of the got plenty to do to manage the Council, Mr MeFee, I really wondered

Gas Undertakings—Provision of a pipeline between Castletown and Port St. Mary Gasworks—Approved, TYNWALD COURT, MAsRCH. 28, 1967 979 whether it would not be satisfactory to Mr MacLeod: That is nothing to do suggest that he might make an with it! admirable chairman of any gas board. sir. Now the only question that he Mr Bolton: Now it is all very well really raised is one of policy. Now the for the hon. member to say it is nothing policy in this matter was outlined to to do with them. Somebody must make Tynwald in January as far as we have a recommendation and we are hoping gone and Tynwald was informed at that to come forward with. a recommenda- time that it was the intention to put in tion at a very early date, otherwise we a pipeline and all we are telling the shall finish up with something thrown Court now is that we intend to put in up from the floor of the Court and we the pipeline, and we are asking Tyn- shall have something that nobody really wald to give us the money to do it. wants, I do hope', sir, that the Court Now I felt that it, is a reasonable thing will pass the resolution without further to assure the Court that if extension comment. becomes necessary, this pipe is The Governor: Item 30. Is that adequate to do it. Now we are not agreed? suggesting that we are going to extend that is a figment of the hon. member's It was agreed. imagination. Some future board may wish to extend and we are making sure that they will be able to do e.c) if policy so determines, but we are not making PURCHASE OF MAJESTIC HO TEL— policy. No extension is visualised at APPROVED the moment, but naturally it is being kept in mind as we hope we are prudent The Governor: 31. I call upon the men. With regard to Mr Crellin, the chairman of the Tourist Board. hon. member for Rushen, we know full Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg well that the people in Port Erin and to move:- Port St. Mary are, as he said, riding on 1—.That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be a razor's edge and we are very, very authorised to expend during the year ending anxious that that position should be 31st March, 1957, out of monies to be remedied as quickly as possible and borrowed a sum not exceeding £.30,000 by way of loan to an approved purchaser of that is the reason for the urgency of this the Majestic Hotel, such loan— resolution. I can assure him that the (a) not to exceed 75 per cent, of the question of the future control of the gas purchase price of the hotel (excluding industry in the Isle of Man is receiving contents); urgent consideration. But it is not a (b) to be interest free for a period of three matter which I think Executive Council years from the date upon which the Lake the view that it cannot be settled Treasurer first advances any monies on account of the loan, and thereafter to in five minutes without giving a good bear interest at the rate of five pounds deal of thought to the methods to be per centum per annum; adopted and to make recommendations (c) to be secured on the Hotel in a manner to Tynwald. approved by H.M. Attorney-General: and Mr Meree: It is a question for a (d) to be repayable by equal annual board. insta:rnents over a period of 25 years. 2—That Tynwald approves of borrowings Mr Bolton: The question is shall it not exceeding £30000 being made bey the be a board? Shall it be a committee? Government under the provisions of the Isle Shall it be existing boards? Shall it be of Man Loans Act, 1958, for the purpose of meeting the foregoing expenditure, such a new board? Shall it be a company borrowings to he re-paid within a period of even? 25 years

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 980 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH n, 106'7

Your EXcellency, I will be as brief as prepare a report for consideration by I can but this question is important and the board. I do not propose, sir, to it does involve the Court on the con- bring to the attention of the Court all sideration and broad question of the information contained in the report principle. May I say, sir, that I bring which was subsequently received — this resolution before the Court with much of it is, in fact confidential to the the support of the Tourist Board, the parties concerned, but it does appear blessing of the Finance Board, and with that this establishment, the Majestic, . the approval of Executive Council. The has 150 bedrooms containing 270 beds. profitability, sir, of the tourist industry Fifty of these rooms have baths but no of this Island depends upon the room has private toilets. The target retention of as large a number of hotels figure which the holel should, and in the and boarding-houses as is possible. past has been able to achieve, is a total Every hotel bedroom which we lose of 20,000 visitor nights and an estimated depreciates the earning power of the turnover of 2-60,000 per season. This, industry upon which we all eventually of course, if anybody is doing it quickly, depend. It was therefore with some mathematics, it does not work out at concern the Tourist Board learnt in .E3 a visitor a night, it includes bar August last year that there was a strong takings, ballroom takings and the like. posJIbility that the Majestic Hotel Taking into account realistic figures for might cease to be a residential hotel in purchase, repairs, renovations and a 1961, and indeed, it could 'be that this certain amount of re-equipping, it could hotel might be lost to the tourist be anticipated that a net profit margin industry through its conversion into of some 2,7,000 per annum could be non-tourist accommodation. On the achieved. With this some E7,000 profit 23rd August last year the Tourist Board it would have been possible to finance received an offer from the managing its operation during the winter months direc.or of Rex Hotels Ltd. — the com- for staff training without any foresee- pany which operates the lease of this able loss. However, attractive though establishment to take over the hotel this proposition appeared to be, after with a view to its utilisation as a staff much consideration the Tourist Board training school during the winter reluctantly came to the conclusion there months and as an establishment which is no part of the board's desirable would cater for inclusive tours during functions to enter into the hotel the summer months. The theory business, and that the board could be behind this suggestion appealed to the place in .an intolerable situation if this board. There is no doubt, that any were to happen. Unfortunately now, efforts which could lbe made to improve the board and indeed, the tourist trade the flow of trained staff into the tourist of the Island is faced with the prospect trade could only be beneficial, and that the undoubted advantages of the undoubtedly, the packaged holiday trade Majestic Hotel will be lost, because is growing rapidly, and the Majestic under the present arrangements the Hotel lends itself admirably to the in- hotel will not be open this year, as I clusive trade. The Tourist Board felt have already stated, and it may well be that notwithstanding the difficulties lost entirely, The Majestic is not in which it foresaw in the development of the position of other hotels which are such an idea, it could be well advised today in the news. I have tried to to make enquiries into the feasibility demonstrate that it is capable of and viability of such a proposition. It becoming an economic and viable unit therefore engaged the services of a well which will be able to contribute to the known management consultant to gross national product of this Island.

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MAIRCIT '28, 1967 981

Therefore, what we have to find is some but we believe now that the interest is scheme which will enable the hotel to probably waning, We hope that the start with a new lease of life. There are publicity which will accrue to this three parties involved. There is the resolution might produce further interest from any parties who are com- landlord who is anxious to dispose of petent (and I say that advisedly) to take his interest, there is the tenant who is on these responsibilities. We don't anxious to retire from the business and want to see the control of this hotel there is a prospective purchaser, as yet passed into the hands of those who are unknown, who must be in the position inexperienced in the management of to take over the hotel on reasonable premises of this nature, or into the hands of those who do not have the im- terms. I say quite emphatically that mediate access to the very large sums just as the Island needs hotels like the of money which will be necessary to Majestic, and if we were faced with the bring the hotel into a condition construction of an hotel of a similar necessary for its efficient utilisation, capacity, this would involve a capital even taking into account that some outlay in excess of £500,0000, towards assistance under the 'Tourist Premises which, Government, under existing Improvement Acts, may well be avail- schemes could be asked to make a able. 'Before, sir. I close my remarks, grant of £100,000 together with appeal to members not to bring generous concessions in the form of too many red herrings into this guaranteed loans, etc., and the.Majestic debate. This is not—and I repeat—this requires a period of stabilisation under is not a case of the Grand Island where an efficient management used to deal- in fact the Court was faced with a fait ing with hotels of this size, and with accompli. I believe that even in the funds available for investment to bring case of the Grand Island subsequent IL to modern standards. Although we events have justified and will continue believe that the hotel has an economic to justify the actions the government future our optimism does not seem to then took, bu.t this is an entirely be shared by those concerns which separate iseue, and I appeal to members might have been expected to have not to confuse the two issues. This is shown interest. Frankly speaking, a straightforward case or lending money there is not as much interest as we on good security for the benefit of the would like to see. Because of our tourist industry. We have not in any concern for the future of 150 bedrooms way committed anybody so far, that is in this Island, we have attempted to why this has come to Tynwald. We are work out a formula which is embodied putting before you a proposal which in the resolution. It is not over- we believe with all sincerity is in the generous, it offers Government 100 per best interests for the tourist trade. If cent, security for the loan which it we believe in tourism, if we expect to proposes to make. It offers the induce- attract investment into the tourist ment of a three-year interest-free period industry then we as Government must which is exactly the same concession be prepared to play our part, and I hope which is available to all other that Tynwald will support the Tourist proprietors of establishments under- Board in the proposal now before you. taking improvements under the Tourist I beg to move. Premises Improvements Scheme. As Mr Dever-eau: I beg to second, Your I have said, there is no particular Excellency, and reserve my remarks. person in mind embodied in this resolution. There is one group which Mr Corkis.•11: Your Excellency, I has been showing considerable interest, wonder can the chairman of the Tourist

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 982 TYNWALD COURT, MAROH 23, 1967

Board tell me. has this building been resolution at the last session of examined? Because the information that Tynwald. There is room for tihis sort I had given to me is that the whole of. the of thing, but the thing that sticks in my roof of this building is perished; the mind and will continue to stick in it is joists are gone and the dampness is the question of the three years' interest- coming into all the rooms. So I am free. To my mind when we make these wondering whether the chairman has allocations of money—I will grant you had the building examined. it is within the Act—but we will have to draw the line somewhere. We are, Mr Crellin: Your Excellency, I would in fact, awarding to anybody, in the like to say one or two words on this. I terms of a bribe, in this particular case, do not want to rock the chairman of the sum of £5,400. Now to the Tourist Board's boat in any way, or my mind, if the Island's boat, as far as tourism is government have money to lend dt must concerned. But I am becoming very inevitably be in the position of making worried on the subject of monies of this a profit, so Government must have nature being awarded for these pur- £5,400 to give away, that is to say, the poses. I note with joy that the chairman interest, simple interest on three years of the Tourist Board said it was not the at five per cent, roughly. I am merely intention to allow hotels of this nature giving you simple interest because there in the fu trure, as distinct from the past, to will be a reduction according to repay- be atiowed to inefficient staff, inefficient ment of the loan, therefore we will not tenants and irnpunious tenants. To bother about common. But if govern- my mind, over the past few years, ment has got £5.400 to give away then there has been a tendency for hoteliers that is all right. It can expect interest to leave hotels and be replaced by to come back to it, but even if it has not bankers or some other people. There got it then it has to borrow it, and so is a good old saying that if you want we have the ludicrous situation where meat, you go to a butcher. I do hope on the one hand we give to the person that we have ceased promoting into .e5,400, and we borrow it at the bottom the hotel business enthusiastic making a gap in our finances of amateurs, and entrusting money belong- £10,800 which to my simple mind ing to the Island to this sort of person. (where my figures are probably more I think it is essential that if we do allegorical than real) we could afford approve a resolution of this nature, we Glen Wybkin for instance, we could in- must follow it up and make sure that deed build a block of flats. There are a these promises are in tact fulfilled. 150 things which we can do with money That amateurs have their own place, but of this nature, and my only question it is not in the hotel business. The hotel to you, Your Excellency, is that we business is a bitter, harsh struggle ask this Court if we can in fact afford which requires professionalism of the these terms of interest-free loans. The highest degree and nobody knows loan, perhaps, yes, the interest-free, no, better than I who have run an hotel for and what I would rather like to see eight years how extremely hard it is to wou.d be an amendment cutting out the start as an amateur and I hope that if first 28 words of paragraph I (ib) of the this resolution is carried this condition resolution. will be imposed upon it, There is no doubt that there is a need for hotels of Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, this this type in Douglas. This point has Court has recently considered a resolu- also been underlined in the hon. tion dealing with the question of member of the Council, Mr McFee's, helping young people who desire to go

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 983 into the hotel and boarding-house elephant, that people seem to go into business and approved the setting up of it and fail to make a success of it, and a committee to consider this matter. one after the other •get out. Now I Now this resolution today is dealing wonder what proof we have got that this with an individual case, and could be mythical prospective purchaser who considered, if approved, as setting a we are going to give this money to help precedent for the future. I consider him buy this hotel, what special this quite improper, and I am not going qualifications he has to make a success to support the resolution as it is at where others have failed. present worded. Too often we are legislating for these individual cases, Mr Kelly; Your Excellency, it is very instead of facing up to the overall important that we in the Court should picture. Now we have been told by the understand really what we are develop- hon. mover that there is a prospective ing, or trying to develop. I have been purchaser, but he said that the a member ,of the Local Government prospective purchaser is as yet Board only for a. few weeks, and I have unknown. Yet it has quite widely been been .ast4ounded at some of the things talked about, that it is the Irish group that have been allowed 'to go on under that are already in the Grand Island the Tourist Improvement Premises Hotel, and other establishments in the Scheme. The hon. member has referred_ Isle of Man_ I do not know whether to the Peveril Hotel, and the hon. mem- this is so or not, but this is what has ber sitting over there now Mr Faragher, been talked about. Now he also said can bear me out in this, he was a mem- that we have got to be sure that these ber of the Local Government Board and hotels do not go into the wrong hands, Mr Nicholls — I am sorry he is not and that the people involved we allow present this morning which could to go in have got sufficient money to verify what I am about to tell this run them. Now what steps are we Court. I was under the impression when taking to find this out? Mention has these monies were loaned of course, been made of Grand Island, but we can that very serious consideration would forget Grand Island. We have got a be given by proper building experts, much more recent case, we have got the architects and such like—people who Peveril Hotel where people have gone knew their job, of what exactly the into and have been given considerable fabric was like of these ,properties be- Government help in the belief that they fore any monies at all were lent. Now had sufficient money to run it. We in this particular case in the Peveril know now that they didn't. Now I am Hotel the great bulk of this £26,000 wondering what enquiries are made and loaned by the Isle of Man Government what substantial enquiries are made down there has been spent on 'providing before money is allocated, and as I say dive bar, coffee bar, stillreom, we have had nothing to show us the true modern kitchens to serve the cafeteria, position yet. We have had some figures and suchlike. Very little money, possibly given to us of the possible profits made, £1,000, could have been spent on the that can be made in this hotel. I bathrooms, but the great bulk of the wonder whether the Tourist Board have money has been spent on other work, had the books of this hotel, the other than tourist accommodation. On running expenses of this hotel and the the. ground floor the principal money profit and loss account of this hotel, has been spent. When you get upstairs, since it has been going? I think it is of course, I am not going to tell the within the knowledge of most members Court. it would be detrimental in that that this has been considered a white respect, to reveal What we saw, because

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 984 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 it would not be in the :interests of those to know is, who approves this pur- people who are going to go there, but chaser? What body gives approval for that can be told privately. But what I this intended purchaser which I under- am concerned about, even this, if I vote stand there is not one. For approving for this, that somebody in authority anything in this direction I myself with the full qualifications, should vet would have to be very thoroughly satis- all the money that is being spent on these places and what for. This is a fied by say, a confidential report of, clear resolution, lending the money. It perhaps Executive Council of the capa- does not say what it is going to be lent bilities of the proposed purchaser, his for, whether it is 'to buy it or provide financial backing, his experience, and bathrooms—a whole lot of things have what he intends to do. Also I would like to go into the hotel and catering trade that substantiated by an architect's re- port as already has been done by a con- before you have got an hotel. This hotel sultant's report on the feasibility of the already has had trnany thousainds of proposition. But until then I myself, like governmen.t money, and I was a member other members would not be prepared of the committee some years ago when to back the vague lending of £30,000 to this money was voted when unemploy- some obscure person or body. This hotea, ment was serious in the Isle of Man as has already been said, has a very and many thousands of pounds were bad record, and it may be better to raze spent there in developing it—it turned it to the ground and start again even out to be a very nice place too, and I with a replacement by chalets. I have hope somebody will take it. All I am in this Court previously warned govern- concerned about is the protection of the ment of becoming a finance company Isle of Man Government against this financing hotels which are run down sort of reckless expense that could take by being run by private companies. place on possibly an old building. The I still say, as I said before—we are not hon. member for South Douglas men- a finance company. It may be desirable tioned the roof. Has a very careful for the Government to help boarding survey been carried out of what it is houses and hotels. I would agree to that likely to cost just to put it into con&tion under the right circumstances, but not without a lot of money being spent on it, in a vague sort of way as this Resolu- bedrooms, bathrooms and such like? tion infers. I am also, with the hon. Somebody should tell the Court, not a member for Rushen, Mr Crellin, against consultant, somebody that has been in lending this money interest free for the hotel trade, somebody that is three years. As he says, this may be an familiar with roofs, timbers, joists, and attraction, as a bait, but somebody has all the rest of the fabric of a useful got to pay the interest for those three ;hotel like 'that, whether it is worth years, and I do not see why we should spending another £30,000 on it. I will do it. If this hon. Court in the future leave it to the Court to make its own deem it advisable to lend this money judgment. for this project or similar projects. I would suggest that before the money Mr Vereker: Your Excellency, I rise is paid out we ascertain what work has also to oppose this resolution in its been done and in fact pay the money present form. I am not very happy to the contractors who have done the about the present form of this resolu- work, or even to the seller of the tion. although this hotel may be neces- property, as part of the purchaser's loan. sary tourist wise, we are asked by this We have had too many instances and resci.ution to lend £30.000 to an examples of Government assistance to approved purchaser. What I would like hotels with subsequent events which

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, 11VIAROH 23, 1967 985 lead to bad publicity for this Island, thousands of pounds on it before it is and although the actual. government really in .a position to be considered loan may be well secured I think first-class accommodation, and by first- that this is a very bad thing for the class I do not mean five star—perhaps Isle of Man and the general tourist trade, and I am not prepared to support three star. There is a great deal to he the resolution in its present way. done, and if anybody at all takes ad- vantage of this offer by the ,Government, The Governor: We will now adjourn then I think we can safely say that they the Court until 2.30. will themselves have to find something in the neighbourhood of a further £.20,000 in addition to 25 per cent of the The Governor: We will resume the cost ,of the property—probably another debate. I call on the member of the £20,000 plus the cost of purchasing ail Council, Mr Bolton, the -chattels in the hotel which will run into a number of thousands as well, so Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I just that the intending purchasers cannot wish 'to s'ay a few words on this reso- even with this kind of assistance be lution, that has been moved by the hon. men of straw, and I think that I could member, the chairman of the Tourist say, and I am sure the chairman of the Board. To say that the 'circumstances Tourist Board will agree, that the of this particular case have worried the Tourist Board and the Finance Board Tourist Board a great deal, and many would never agree that the place should 'meetings have taken place within the get into the hands of people who would past few weeks between the Tourist be coming again next year or the year Board and the Finance Board as the after for further assistance. It is in- Tourist Board were very, very anxious tended that this should be a long term that the large number of bedrooms in project, and the people to whom it this hotel should not 'be available for might be sold or who 'might receive this use, and as the weeks went by it became advance would be people of substance. increasingly difficult to visualise the and I would like to suggest too; that hotel being in use for this year and it the name of the firm who is at present was well known that if it was left in a leasing the 'Grand Island Hotel has been state of dilapidation until next year mentioned. We know that they have that the position would be considerably shown an interest in this hotel. But this worse. A number of suggestions have resolution has not been drafted with been rout forward which the Finance a view to assisting them. It has been Board could not endorse, and eventually drafted because the Tourist Board were the Finance Board did feel that they anxious that everyone who might be could support a -resolution in the terms interested should be aware that Govern- set out on the agenda. The position Is ment would be prepared to help them. that we have had a valuer's report on There may 'be local concerns who would -the hotel, we have had a valuation, and be interested in this 'hotel, provided we have had a report on the condition, they knew that that kind of assistance and we are well-aware, both the Tourist was required_ Now with regard to the Board arid the Finance Board, of the point raised 'by the hon. member for position of the Majestic. It is desirable Rushen, 'Mr CreIlin, about the subsidy no doubt, that the hotel should be in of £5,400. The hotel has not yet been use, but ,I think it should be made quite prepared for opening for 1967. There clear to the Court that in the event of are, as far as we know, no bookings at anybody purchasing this hotel they are present, and anybody who took it now going ta have to spend very many and 'commenced work on it would un-

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 986 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 doubtedly lose a good deal of money want, and I feel if we get involved in this season and quite possibly next teo many hotels they will be certainly season too, and at is only for that reason white elephants. This has been a dead that the Finance Board were prepared duck for a very long time and nobody to agree to some interest-free period has ever made a go of it, and there is in order to encourage somebody to take an increasing tendency— on the place knowing they were going Mr Bolton: They have made a go of it. to lose money for the initial period of their occupation, and 'also to encourage Mr Anderson: Well very few 'have, A them to spend the amount of money Lot of people have lost a tot of money which will require to be merit on in it. With the increasing tendency to renovations, alterations .and what-have- go for the other type of holiday, I feel you around, the hotel. The Finance that the chances of it succeeding in the Board agreed that this resdlution could future are less than they have 'been in be put on the agenda, and I may say the past, and for that reason I am not that the Finance Board's attitude was prepared -to support the resolution in — this far and no further, because I its present form. am quite sure that the Tourist Board in their anxiety to obtain more visitors' Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I am accommodation, in the Island, would completely in accord with the motive have gone a good deal further than this, behind this resolution. I agree entirely but the Finance Board felt that this with what my hon. colleague, Mr Bolton, was reasonable and was as far as they has said when he says that we just felt that Tynwald Court should go. I cannot afford to lose an hotel of this would support the motion at the present size, Now we have to face facts, and the time, sir. fact at !the moment is that we have two hotels, one at either end of Douglas Mr Anderson: Your Excellency, since Promenade, between them, dn the aggre- corning to this House, before coming to gate ,amounting to at least 200 beds. I it as well, it has been my desire to sup- am told on very good authority that port the visiting industry in any way I Douglas has lost in the neighbourhood can, because I think it is absolutely of some 1,200 beds in recent years, essential to the well-being of the whole certainly in the 'post war period. That of this Island. This, 'however, is one that is a very, very serious position to be I stall at, I have not yet been convinced in as a holiday resort. Now the only that it is in the interest, in the long doubt that I have about this resolution term interest even of the -tourist indus- is in the method of dealing with it. We try that this should go forward in the are all, I think, 'painfully -aware of what form of the hotel as it now stands. Had happened in another hotel deal in the there -been a resolution before the Court Island from which the Government this afternoon to turn this into a flatlet- received, and still is receiving, a con- type of resort, or holiday accommoda- siderable amount of .approbrium very tion, I would have been wholeheartedly largely undeserved. 'Nevertheless, in behind it. I feel that the Tourist Board spite of the assurance which the chair- has got to think again about the whole man of the Finance Board 'has given, approach to the future of the tourist that this sum 'would be the last word, industry, because I feel that, it is a would not be exceeded, there is in my known statement of fact that there is an view always the possibility of a pur- increasing tendency throughout the chaser finding himself or -herself in whole of the tourist resorts to want to difficulties in the future and coming to live on the chalet-type of accommoda- Government again, in which case we tion. People can come and go as they would have a repetition of that unfor-

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MALR01-1 23, 1967 987 tunste incident 4which I mentioned able to get properly organised, get on before. Paragraph a refers to not ex- his feet, but at least, I think the ceeding 75 per cent" and I would assume Government would be much better that the purchase price asked must be advised—I 'am assuming of course that in the neighbourhood of £40,000, and the purchase price would be in the for my part I ,would sooner that the neighbourhood of £40,000— Government bought the place outright Mr Corkish: £75,000 he wants. and be master in its own house, then it can dictate what is to be done, the Mr Nicholls: Well we don't know. There limit of what Is to be done, and even again we are in the dark. I am only go further than what is contemplated at assuming that since the sum is in any the moment if they think it necessary, case not to exceed £75,000-1 am assum- but at least the Government would be ing that it could be bought for round master in its own .houise. about ,R.40,000, but again, as I say, I may be quite wrong. This is for the building. Mr McFee: Move an amendment. But the Majestic Hotel in proper hands, and again I would refer to what the hon. Mr Nicholls: Yes I am prepared to member for Glenfaba has said about the move it. With regard to what the hon. lack of success in the oast. Now again, member for Glenfaba, who has just sat from my own knowledge as a close down, has said about the need for neighbour and keeping it under obser- accommodation of a flatlet type, well I vation and since it 'was originally the agree with him that there is a demand, old mansion house, I would say with a growing demand, for this kind of respect to the people concerned, it has accommodation, but I do not think that never had a really capable management an attempt to convert an existing hotel in that hotel. Never. since it w.as first of the Majestic type into flatlets, the made into an hotel. That is what is flatlet type, is the best way to deal with needed. Once it is put into proper con- it. To be successful su-ch a venture must dition and when we are assured of a be designed for that purpose, not an really capable and experienced hotelier adaptation of an existing premises. Now in charge, I am certain that it could be I know the Majestic Hotel and have a very valuable venture indeed, and to known it since it was a private house, test the feelings of the Court, Your probably as well and probably better Excellency, I am going to move an than most members of this hon. Court. amendment that the Government should I know that it is in a bad state at the consider the outright purchase of the moment, we all know, and if we did not hotel. know it before we have been told that it is in a. bad state and it needs a lot of Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I am money spending on it. I am also told— very sorry to hear in this debate from mind you, my information may be quite my colleagues in Rushen a criticism of wrong, but I am also told that there is the Tourist Improvement legislation, no positive purchaser in sight at the because this legislation was inspired moment, that there are one or two and introduced by earlier representa- nibbling at it and they may or may not tives from Rusher), Mr Cavil and Mr turn into actual buyers. !But I think that Sinicocks and myself realising to what if the Government owned it and fixed extent the tourist accommodation had a rent, bearing in mind what the chair- become in a neglected way for a number man of the Finance Board has said of of years: in fact, it is the introduction the possible losses over the ,first year of this legislation that has enabled or two, they could afford to be generous hoteliers, both tenants and owners, to for a year Or two until the tenant was bring baCk to a reasonable state of re-

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 988 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

pair and to offer to the modern visitor be let :by tender, or Will the purchaser to the island that type of accommoda- be Chosen by tender or is it already pre- tion which 'they expect land which we selected? This is an important thing. If must provide if we are still to survive we are going to offer facilities, then as a seasonable and prosperous tourist every person in this Island or outside it, If necessary, with the necessary quali- industry, and I am very sorry I feel that fications must have an opportunity to the hon. members who have spoken come' in on what is a wonderful oppor- against this legislation should have at tunity, 'and I hope too, that this first acquainted themselves with the opportunity will not be an isolated background, and the reasons of the opportunity, but is going to be adopted various Acts that have been brought in. by the committee that has been As such I feel that we must have very appointed recently for this very purpose careful regard to this question of tourist of creating a scheme to further the de- improvement and hotel legislation. velopment and expansion and improve- Another attack has been made by the ment of hotels and accommodation in hon. member from Ramsey on the atti- the Isle of Man. The only criticism I tude that the Local Government Board have to offer is that it is isolated, a com- has taken towards this type of legisla- mittee has been appointed for this very tion. He mentioned one hotel in parti- purpose, and a scheme ought to be forth- cular. He has no facts at all. The facts coming first by which all individual are that the schemes and the legislation applications should be judged. Also, lays down regulations and rules by there are one or two reasons submitted which these schemes are to 'be adminis- —the .first reason is, it may be converted tered, and no-one and no Board have a into some other use than tourist accorn- right to exceed the authority of these rnodation. Now who is going to Day — particular schemes. The Local Govern- somebody said £75,000 to purchase an ment Board 'with regard to this particu- hotel and then 'change It into a factory lar hotel first of all have . the hotel or something? .1 thought that was a very, valued to make certain that under the very weak statement. It may be con- provisions of the legislation that per- verted into something else. missive authority was there to allow them to grant a certain amount of Mr Quayle: Other purposes could be money for the improvement. No im- old people's homes, you know. provements were carried out on any hotel, and hundreds of hotels have been Mr IVICFee: Who is going to buy that? improved by this legislation, without I know the 'Social Services will have first of all, architects 'and owners sub- something to say about that! All right mitting details, specifications of the well you can answer that, sir. The other type of improvement that is required was, it will make a profit of £7,000 per and it must comply with the regulations annum. Now I ani. quite certain that if of the Tourist 'Improvements Acts. This that was realistic, you would not be was done with regard to the very hotel. offering to-day to any company or to I am quite certain that the 'chairman of any experienced person an opportunity the Local Government Board will have of this kind because it would already something do say about this. Be wants be snapped up and a company would to keep some of his unruly members in have possession of the hotel, and the order in debate. I am quite certain the £7,000 would be already a very attrac- chairman of the Local Government tive remuneration for an enterprise of Board will give the facts. What I was this kind. That is another very, very going to ask the hon. member, the mover weak statement made by the mover and of the resolution, is, will this ultimately also, whilst it has been said that it is

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 939

a tremendous opportunity, a wonderful people of experience, people with their opportunity of this hotel, 150 bedrooms eyes wide open and who knew that in with complete bathroom and toilet order to put the place in order it would facilities. On the other hand we find cost something like £20,000 to do this, the chairman of the Finance Board stat- and they were prepared to do it. They ing that there is a tremendous amount also appreciated that they would prob- of money to be spent here even to bring ably lose because of the lateness in the it to the state of a three-star hotel. Now year, some £5,000. They appreciated who is right? The statement made by that too. It was suggested by the Tourist the mover or the statement made by the Board that perhaps buying might be the chairman as to the condition and type of accommodation that this scheme is pre- right idea, it might be the right idea, but senting. However, I feel that we have if the Government were to purchase the got to be enterprising. I feel that we hotel, then it would have to be put out have got to be prepared to revolutionise,. to tender, and who is then going to if necessary, the whole complex of hotel select the tender? Is it to be the and hoarding-house accommodation, person who offers the most money, and I am prepared to say to the Govern- because invariably the peotie who ment we have got to do something or offer the most money for any kind perish, because in our visits to the main- of premises are not always the most land we find that invariably the thief desirable or reliable people. Then again, criticisms of the Manx holiday resort it was thought that the state of the —you cannot offer the facilities. Now premises was such that any little then, we have got to offer the facilities window that was broken or any catch or ultimately die as a resort. that was short of a window, it would be the Government who would have to Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, as vice- pay, and it would not be £20,000, it chairman of the Tourist Board, I have might be £100,000 they might have to known something about the history of find subsequently. It was thought un- the hotel and the keen desire of the desirable that the Government . . this, Tourist Board to make sure that this incidentally, we consulted with the place was kept in operation this year, Finance Board and they strongly and I would like to clarify one or two opposed the possibility of purchasing points. First of all, it is true to say that the hotel for many reasons, and we in this hotel has been advertised publicly the Tourist Board did agree that there for sale. This must be widely known to were a lot of very good reasons why the all members. It came to the notice of Government should not become owners the Tourist Board that the present lease- of any hotel. Because of the difficulties holder, for various reasons, did not of selection of the tenant, whether it intend to open the hotel this year. The should be A, B: or C, and the terms and Tourist Board thought this would be a conditions, and then again, there are catastrophe because what is the good of people at the moment, that are tenants advertising for more and more tourists perhaps, and they are becoming a poli- if our capacity is going to shrink? We tical football from time to time, communicated with the leaseholder and although they themselves are quite inno- asked him if he had had any serious cent parties in the agreements and so k enquiries to purchase the place, and he forth. We thought this was highly un- did put us completely in the picture. We desirable. But we said, the Tourist did, with him, meet one of the parties • Board and the Finance Board—let us concerned that was interested and it is encourage somebody else, and en- sufficient for me to say that the parties couragement is needed, and I say, Your that we met were people of substance, Excellency, if 'We do not show the

Furch•ase of 1VIajest c Hotel—Approved. 990 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1.967

courage to-day to give some assistance, gage on the property. I would say that some help. to somebody, and this is not some of the people—and it is brue to say a great deal of help . . The hon. mem- that there are certain parties that are ber for Rushen said it was =probably deeply interested. If it had been possiible worth £5,4C0. Suppos ng ll is. To get an ler us to come to an agreement with hotel of 147/150 .bedrooms in operation, these parties, that hotel could well have to make a gift of five-and-a-half thou- been opened. within the next couple of sand, where it is known that if any ne.mtbs. One of the people concerned, party was to come over under our in this very reliable organisation, told existing legislation and say — we are us that he himself would have by now going to build a new hoel, it would be been touring the .ravel agencies with a long hundreds of tnousands, hundreds view to getting customers. We do know of thousands we would he involved in, that the Tourist Board is being in- and we are obligated to do this, incident- undated with people writing stating ally, under the Provision of Hotels and that they have al.ready written to this Boarding-houses hotel because they have not been able to get into other places, and are getting Mr MacDonald: And the money is no reply—what is the position? If we do there. enter into an agreement to purchase it there are so many snags, the place will Mr Nivison: If the money is there, certainly be empty this year if we do and it is rather remarkable that the enter into an agreement to purchase it, money would he forthcoming on things because by the t:me all this negotiation like that. But it is well-known that new • takes place the summer is over. I. would premises, new bedroom accommodation, urge that we should pass this resolu- cost in the neighbourhood of two-and-a- tion, have faith in the people who have half thousand, some cluo',e 24,000 per been dealing with this problem, the bedroom. Now here we have an oppor- Finance Board are very aware of the tunity—'_ncidentally, the place can be whele s'tuation relating to this particu- bought, the whole bag of tricks for about lar problem. The Tourist Board are £63,000. This is the amount. We are only aware of it, the Executive 'Council are interested in the property. About aware of this position. I would say that £63,000. Incidentally, this includes—let there is only one thing that any alter- us nut the whole of the picture—this native to this resolution—incidentally, includes an obligation to the Govern- 1 this has been arrived at after several ment at the moment of something other ways have already been discussed approaching £7,000. Now you cannot and thought perhaps more desirable, just wipe this off, otherwise you have but not possible, not practicable. This is got to we'pe everything else off through- the only possible thing, and I would say out the Island. You cannot wipe this off, in conclusion, Your Excellency, if we this is part of the .purchase price. The say that it is not worth putting our parties concerned here who would be money at five per cent. subsequently prepared to purchase this have their • into hotels of this kind, I believe we eyes wide open that this is the kind of have got to seriously think whether it money that this building would cost, but • is worth .continuing in the tourist all we are interested in, or all the Gov- bus'ness. This is what you have got to ernment can be interested in, is the think about. This will subsequently—if bricks and mortar, and not the furniture this place is closed, the Peveri/ is and the like, and that will cost some- • closed, and one or two more 'places where in the neighbourhood of forty- throughout Douglas, Port Erin and one add thousand. Forty, perhaps forty-one' or two o'her places, this is the slippery thousand. The £30,000 is a first mort- slope and this is.the end. Don't think we

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALtil COURT, MARCH 23, 1i467 0D1 are going to replace them with new and 'believed this to be the fact, and he places. Suggestions have been made we was advised to Purchase and buy the shouad ibuild a new hotel in Ramsey_ dther parties out that were interes:ed We were talking about that within this in the hotel in order to near the decks. last few. years, a new hotel in Laxey. Tn:s he d:d, and I am given to believe They are very far away. Here we have that this cost him—not. for the premises a chance to rescue something that is —some £38,000 to clear these people already there and the cost is a drop in away. In the meantime the legislation the bucket ... was altered from the wards "provide Mr Crellin: Why is it shut? an hotei" to the words "erect an hotel." Mr Nivison: Why is it shut? It is shut Now, there may have been some mis- for many reasons. I could tell you the understanding — and here I will give sorry story of this, and I think this back- way to the learned Attorney-General- ground perhaps is necessary, Your Ex- there may have been some misunder- cellency. The background is this. The standings in this, but the lease holder present holder of the lease is not an understood that this was to be sa, and hotelier. He admits—he is the firs'.; to he in turn then continued with the hotel admit this, but it is true to say that a . —other things happened and the hotel couple of years 'ago it was thought that was built in a dj-terent place and he this might have been a venue for the was left carrying this enormous burden. casino. Now this is no secret. It was He has subsequently tried to oil-load the thought that this might have been a .hotel because he no longer wished to venue. The present holder of the lease run it. Incidentally, at these times this was in negotiations with the then Board hotel was valued at very, very, very of Control—of which I was not a mem- much more than the monies we are talk- ber, neither was my colleague Mr ing about now. We were talking about Nicholls—and was told that if he was ,something like in the hundreds of thou- to obtain a lease, a long-term lease, of sands. I am not going to exaggerate, but these premises, and an option to buy in the hundreds of thousands. Now these premises that their firm would be since then the hotel has—with a view given, their firm would be riven the to getting rid of it—it has not been per- concession as far as the casino was haps as well run as it might have been, concerned. This happened at the time. and I, was the intention of the present holder to get rid of it. (Naturally, he The Attorney-General: That, Your Ex- was holding cut for as much money as cellency, is not a correct statement. I possible. You cannot blame anybody for am aware that the hdia. member is doing this, we would all do the same. assured that it is, but it is not correct, He has now come down to the fact that sir. it is not a case of getting the £38,000 that he himself has had to pay, he may Mr Nicholls: I have seen a letter to have paid over the odds, but that is that effect. another matter, but merely rescuing The Attorney-General: Well you may some of the money .. . he has the right have seen— to purchase the freehold, and the free- hold was, the right to rourchase it was Mr Nivison: Twill preface my remarks then at £65,000 Plus the five he had with "I believe that th's is correct." r. already paid. The premises can now be believe that this is correct, Now I want bought for forty, he himself would get to continue. I am nr,,,f. blaming anyone out with fifteen, but the Government for this situation. I am purely stating already have some seven in the place. the position that the leaseholder thought Now these are facts, Your Excellency.

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. • 992 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1941

Now I hope I have not tried to distort get the opportunity to tender for this anything or been biased in any way. hotel. This may, or may not, be correct, The learned Attorney-General has cor- but I sincerely hope that it this resolu- rected me, but I would say that this tion is put through this House to-day, that it will be made perfectly clear is what he thought at that time. He was locally that everybody has the same given to believe it at that time. Now this opportunity to tender for this building. is the background. So hearing in mind I know that firms have been mentioned, we in the Tourist Board believe that it and the names maybe of firms who is right that we should try and keep would be able to spend the money re- this place going and we do know of quired to modernise this hotel, but people of repute that are deeply in- whether local people will come forward terested and these terms would help or not, giving them the opportunity is them, or perhaps some other similar a great thing, and I think this oppor- type of people, it is not a closed shop, tunity should be certainly given to them some similar type of people of repute and 1 hope this House will support this to get in because this is an inducement. resolution this afternoon. I also feel If we do not give some inducement I feel. from the point of tourist accommodation sure that the hotel will be empty this that we in the Local Government Board summer and I feel sure that if that hote', are continually getting applications from people who are turning the smaller is empty this summer, the Peveril is type of tourist accomipodation into flats, empty this summer, .1 think we will have and I think if anything is to be con- a few more empty in subsequent verted into a flatlet type accommoda- summers. I urge and beseech you—while tion it should be the smaller building you may have certain doubts, certain and not the buildings such as we men- misgivings, I urge you. in the interest of tioned this afternoon, the Majestic. Now tourism for the future, to support the the past chairman of the Local Govern- resolution as down on the agenda. ment Board made reference to the Peveril. Now I hope to keep briefly to Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I the facts regarding merely the hotel we would like to rise to support this resolu- mentioned as our chairman of the tion also. I am doing so on two main Tourist Board asked us this afternoon points, Your Excellency. I also feel that not to draw red herrings across the it is very important to the visiting in- track, and I will not try to do so. But dustry of the Isle of Man that an hotel with reference to the Peveril I would of this size should be maintained as an like to say at this stage that everything hotel. I do not think for one minute possible that could be done by the Local there should be any thought given to Government Board was done. It was all changing it into something of a chalet done in compliance with the regulations. type of building situated where it is in The architects produced their certi- one of our most focal points in Douglas. ficates as to what was done, how the I also would like to very strongly make money was spent and how it was carried the point in supporting this—this is a out, and I have every confidence in the new stand for the Government to make, staff of the Local Government Board. to finance loans for people to purchase We are now getting extra staff, and if hotels or tourist accommodation and there is anything that has not been mention has been made and will con- thoroughly looked into in the past and tinue to be made I suppose at various the Court feels should be further looked times in this Court, regarding the Grand into .in the future, I can assure this Island Hotel. Now I had approaches Court it will be done, but I sincerely made to me after the Grand Island hope that this resolution this afternoon Hotel was let that local people did not will be supported. I would rather sup-

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, IMAIROI-1 23, 1967 993 port the resolution as it stands to give opportunists that have been coming to the loan than to purchase the hotel, this Island in the last five or ten years. because I certainly think that if a Men who have brought the Isle of Man person has a vested interest in the to disrepute, men of straw, some of them building themselves, they are more have landed in gaol. I feel that if we inclined to try to make a go of it than were able to sell the Island, not only in if the Government owned she building. tourism but in other respects, and that if And I would rather support the resolu- we were able to have someone who had tion as it is this afternoon. the relationship and contacts of some of the big trusts and companies which run Mr Canister: Your Excellency, I have chains of hotels, not only throughout for some time had myown views about the United Kingdom but in other coun- the visiting industry in She Isle of Man tries who could be attracted to open and in similar resorts in England. We such a place and take over this place, know that a very great change has taken it could be a tremendous success. I feel I place, that many of the resorts even in cannot oppose this resolution, sir. I feel the south of England are feeling the that if it can be saved it must be saved, same draught as we are, that holidays and that is why I would support it. Also, now and •holidays compared with 50 I would suggest, sir, that we are not years ago are very different things. I taking advantage of the Mother Parlia- feel that Douglas having 'been built a ment of the United Kingdom and the hundred years ago, has now become Vic- Commonwealth. torian and it requires more than just attempting to revive an hotel that has Mr MacLeod: They take advantage failed. It requires more than that to of US! bring back tourism to the Island as we hope and expect. We have an hotel here Mr Callister: You are talking non- which is ideally sited, and could have sense. Northern Ireland has a Govern- been a magnificent hotel for the Isle of ment which is no more than a County Man. It has not. It new is a place of 'Council, and yet the British Govern- disrepute and it will take. a lot to ment gives grants of £6,000,000 to establish that hotel rto the standard, Northern Ireland and it gives the best shall we say, of Castletown Golf Links advice and encouragement and it has Hotel. Now we know that visitors come the contacts between the United King- to the Isle of Man and go to such places dom and the world. We are toying with as the Golf Links Hotel and the Grand the Government of this Isle of Man and Island Hotel. They go to those places I would suggest that if we are going to and they enjoy it, but they don't want think in terms of the survival of this to come to the Douglas they see to-day. They want to come to this Island which Island as a prosperous country we must is a unique holiday resort in the United think of rebuilding Douglas, not just Kingdom, and all I want to say, sir are supporting an hotel that has failed, and two things. First is, to whom are we we should think. in terms of 20-25 years lending this money? I would like to see over an exoenditure•of 20 to 30 million a competent Manx hotelier take this pounds. and unless we revitalise Doug- over, a competent hotelier, and we have las as the main visiting resort, and put competent hoteliers in the Isle of Man tourism on its feet as it should be put who really can run an hotel as it should on its feet. Not by bingo, or by one- be done. Unfortunately they are few. But armed bandits, or casinos, or Manx if such were forthcoming I would be National Lotteries or other such very happy to support the advancing of schemes, but- this Island is the most money for that, but I do hope that we beautiful visiting resort in the United are not going to lend the money to the Kingdom and it could be made the finest

Purchase of Majest.c Hotel—Approved. 994 TYNWALD COURT, MARCI-I 23, 1967

and the most prosperous visiting resort Tourist Board and Finance Board have in the Island. I do hope that instead of adopted in this case is the right one, I toying with it as we do with everything think it would be wise of us to help else, we merely toy with the govern- someone to buy this hotel. The sugges- ment of this Island, patching up here, tion tnat it should go out to tender may be a wise one; I am quite certain shoving out something there, pretending that the Tourist Board have no one that we are competent to match this person in mind, the person who comes Island with the pace the world is going along to buy this hotel with the support at today. Let us think in bigger terms, of the Government must be a person let us plan., We do not want to plan, we that has experience of running a great just merely tinker with things. Let us hotel of this nature. He must be a per- have a plan for revitalising the Island son that has a great deal of wealth, as a visiting resort and rebuild Doug- must have money behind ham They las from the Loch . Promenade right are going to require, as the chairman of through, and I hope that before we get the Finance Board said at least £20,000 very far that the Tourist Board and behind them to finance the setting up this Government will instead of just of the hotel as a second or third class staying and patching up these things hotel, The suggestion that it should be will plan for the future on a much used for other purposes is quite irrele- grander scale than this, but I do sup- vant. I think that if this hotel is estab- port the resolution. lished it will be run in terms of package holiday, probably, they are very popular Mr Devereau: Your Excellency, I will today, that is also •a new thing as well be very brief. I seconded this resolution as chalets— package holidays, and I can because I feel this is a very sincere see this hotel doing very well and being attempt on the part of the Tourist a credit to the town and a help to the Board to rescue and maintain this tourist industry and I hope to the hotel, the lack of which would be a tradesmen of the town. serious burden on this town. A fine picture Douglas would look if we had The Speaker: I would like to comment derelict hotels at both ends of our on the resolution, You'r Excellency, and promenade. I was very pleased that the I would say, sir, that as long as tourism hon. member, the vice-chairman of the remains the basis of our economy we Tourist Board, put you in the picture must always give full consideration to with regard to the experiences of the issues of this nature because everyone present tenant of the hotel and the appreciates that accommodation in this difficulties he has laboured under. I Island is dwindling and that the loss of would like to say something about this such an hotel as this with 150 bedrooms tenant which puts him in a different available for letting, is an item which category to many previous tenants of cannot be regarded lightly, and in that that same hotel. If he has got into respect I would compliment the chair- difficulties he has not brought the man of the Tourist Board and his Board tradesmen of this town with him. So far on making such strong efforts to retain as I know no tradesman has suffered this accommodation for the tourist at the hands of the present tenant of the trade. At the same time I would sympa- Majestic Hotel. I would oppose the sug- thise with him in having to place before gestion of Mr Nicholls that an outright the Court a devious, and what I regard purchase should be made of this hotel as a misguided form of resolution which because I do not think that is the right comes to us, not I know, because of the method. I think the method that the chairman's representation, because this

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, IVLAIRCIII 28, 1067 95 represents the will of the Finance the branches as to what was going on. Board, Now, Your Excellency, in the INOW we have oeen told tois aer- past, Government has always tackled noon— the problem of accommodation, the problem of loans, the problem of assist- ivir You should say "alter- ance to either this inaustry or any ward s:' otner industry in a straigntforward way, in a manner which enaoled every Tne Spealcer: No, at the time, sir. Yes, sir...I:he brancnes concurred. Your rnemoer ca tne community to avail r_;xceliency, we nave been told today tnemsetves of toe schemes that uovern- Lnat tne question of purchase of this ment were placing oelore mem. Tots notel is one that perriaps the Tourist resolution ooes out co mac, aria it is Board could not have accepted ligolly mere wnere I quarrel wim tne resolu- because me Tourist Board would not tion and where second. Mr Nicholls's lute to accept the responsibility of amenoment to it, because, Your r_,xcet- naming a tenant from a group of appli- lency, our schemes have always been cants tor a building of this sort. But clearly available to people. This is woo is now going to vet the applicants going to provide some favoured appli- 'i.or purchase ? Will it be the Tourist cants — ana we have heard this after- Board themselves? I have every con- noon from Mr Nivison — of people who fidence in their ability to do so actually, are deeply interested and very reliable and I would say that they would also organisations, 1 wonder who they are, vet equally well applications for a who are going to benefit by this parti- i:enancy, but here, Your Excellency, is cular vote. where we differ in a matter of prin- Mr Nivison: They have all had the ciple. I am of the opinion that Govern- same opportunity, sir. ment should buy an organisation of this nature. We are going to put in £30,000 The Speaker: I wonder, Your Excel- and we have been told that the value — lency, if the opportunity of participa- has been mentioned here, a figure of ting in the .£30,000 that is put down in £.45,000 by Mr Nicholls this afternoon. this resolution, has been notified to the Now we all know that the cost of new Island public, to the hoteliers of the hotel accommodation is around £3,000 Island— per bedroom. It would stand a con- siderable amount of Government money Mr MacDonald: And the Finance put into the hotel to improve it and Board ? bring it up-to-date, because remember, we have already helped this organisa- The Speaker: And indeed the Fin- tion in the past to modernise and bring ance Board? You know the details, and, its standards up-to-date. It may need Your Excellency, I feel that this is quite a bit doing to it, no-one would where this resolution is a very danger- deny that, at the present time, but / ous one indeed for the Court to accept. think that the courageous thing and the Now Government should, in my opin- straightforward thing for this Govern- ion, always tackle problems of this sort ment to do would be to buy this hotel in a straightforward way. You may be and then put it out to tender and as the critical of Grand Islands and other ven- hon. member for North Douglas has tures where Government has had to said, let any Manx hotelier have a go come in and perform a rescue operation, at taking on that tenancy, because let but such operations were always based, us remember that it is only a matter first of all, on a Government scheme, of a month ago you appointed a com- and secondly with the full knowledge of mittee to look at the difficuties being

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 996 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

experienced by people in the industry The Governor; Would they be pre- finding sufficient capital to purchase pared in the absence of the chairman ingoings. Now if that is the case, it is to meet ? It is a very difficult one, this. going to be equally difficult for young Manx people to purchase outright as Mr Nivison: This matter is extremely well as to take up the necessary ex- urgent and it has already been taken penses of ingoing in a development of up with the Finance Board who came this nature. and I think, Your Excel- down very heavily against the purchase lency, personally, that Mr Nicholls is on of the property and that is why this the right lines here, the Government resolution is here. should tackle this venture not neces- Mr Irving: The position is this, sir, sarily with a view to hanging on to it that the Finance Board support the for ever, but in order to enable it to motion and the chairman of the Tourist get it functioning at the earliest pos- Board. sible moment and through the medium of a Manx tenant if that is at all pos- Mr Nicholls: The Finance Board are sible. To me this is a new development not the full Court you know. in the proceedings of Government. I have never seen a resolution of this sort Mr Irving: No, but we support it. put on before. I hope it will be some Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I do not time before I see one again. It sets want to go all over the debate answer- out to do things, Your Excellency, in a ing individual members' comments. A totally unorthodox manner, in a lot of them were answered by Mr manner which will. I believe, create Bolton, a lot more by Mr McFee, and innumerable pitfalls and before 12 think we had a complete reply to months are out there will be more debate from our vice-chairman Mr screams round this Court than have Nivison. But I do want members to get been heard in relation to the Grand this quite clearly in their heads. There Island, as to who the tenant was, how is no question of who is going to give it came to be allocated, the whole thing the tenders, there is going to be no will be brought into disrepute by this question of who does the allocation form of resolution. Gentlemen, somebody, if they wish to The Governor: At this point I should purchase the bricks and mortar must explain that I cannot accept Mr „go to the owner of the bricks Nicholls's amendment as it is out of mortar and make him an offer. That is order. The conclusions reached by the point one. Having got that agreement Governor in Executive Council last he must go to the tenant who holds an September on the eve of my arrival were option to purchase and make his renoe with him. That is point two #r1 that in a case where amendment was to Governrnt sought to be made to a Bill which might thirdly, he must 'some have the effect of increasing expendi- and be vetted as being a suitable tenant, ture the particular debate should be candidate, call it what you like. Now he adjourned and discussion had with the this gentleman from Northern Ireland, Finance Board before the debate was be he a/fr Forte, be he Mr Billy resumed. Now I am in a slight difficulty Butlin, be it Metropolitan Hotels, I here because one-third of the Finance couldn't care less, but what I do care Board is now in mid-air and if we about is having proper management in adjourn this debate then— this hotel and that is the only concern of the Tourist Board. It may be a local Mr Irving: The other two-thirds are syndicate, it may be an English syndi- not financially irresponsible, Your cate, it can be a foreign syndicate. I Excellency. am quite easy. We want 150 bedrooms

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 997

in operation. That is the simple issue. Mr Nicholls: Might I say, sir, that Now, sir, it is not therefore a question even if my amendment fails I am of anybody, giving anybody, a tenancy. entirely in support of the resolution. We were asked earlier in the debate, who shall say yea or nay ? Well I think The Court adjourned. we got the message pretty clearly. It will be in the terms of the Tourist Mr Irving: Sir, the Finance Board Accommodation Act, in general terms, would like to put these points before that the Finance Board in fact, say yea, the Court. We have just met and we the Local Government Board look after would like to say that we feel this way. First of all, the Finance Board has carrying it out, and occasionally the already agreed to this motion being Tourist Board are brought into con- included on the agenda, but its mem- sultation to say whether it is desirable. bers went even further than that and May I make this quite clear. If this was undertook to support the motion. improvements to an owned property it Secondly, sir, the Finance Board is not is already covered under the existing prepared to take a snap decision on the statutes, three per cent in all, sir, and it amendment for the following reasons. would not come to this Court, you • Firstly, this proposal, the proposal con- would hear nothing about it. You could tained in the amendment, has not been advance 40, 50 thousand, or least the Wily examined by the Board. Secondly, Local Government Board could, and you the exact price of the property is! just not would not know a thing, about it. If this known, it is subject to other people's were under industry, under their .blanket agreement. Thirdly, the cost of repair- coverage and they wanted to lend ing the building is not known. Now this £20,000, £30,000, they can do it without might well be as much as £30,000, sir. coming to this Court because you have We just don't know. Fourthly, the cost just given them blank coverage to do of the renovations is not known. And it, but we cannot purchase property. fifthly, the amount required for the in- That is why X have been placed in the going is not known. Here again, is an- situation of coming forward with this other figure which is subject to some- resolution today. There is no jiggery- one else's agreement. Therefore, sir, the pokery, there is no witch hunt, there is Board cannot agree to a financial no question of anybody getting prefer- proposal without having some idea of ential treatment. All we are trying to the amount of money involved, and I do is to give the minimum of help and assure you, Your Excellency, and hon. by God, sir, it is a minimum — to try members of this Court, that the Board and get this place open. I beg to move. really does not know how much would be involved in the purchase of this Mr .Cork■ ish: Your Excellency, has the hotel. Therefore I am sorry, sir, that the roof been examined.? Board cannot concur with the amend- Mr Quayle: Mr Bolton, sir, in his ment moved by the hon. member for speech in the debate in point of fact Council, Mr Nicholls. On the other said they had received a complete hand, sir, the Board feels that if the analysis on the hotel. It has been Court wishes to purchase this n-roperty, examined, it has been priced. the Board, that is the Finance Board, would not and could not oppose an The Governor: Before putting the amendment that consideration be given question I am going to adjourn the to the purchase of the Majestic Hotel. Court for five minutes and ask the So that if we have an amendment Finance Board to consider Mr Nieholls's before the Court now that consideration amendment. be given to the purchase of this hotel,

Purchase of Majestic Hotel—Approved. 596 TYNWALD COURT, 'MARCH 23,1561

when we know how much money it in- POLICE PAY AND ALLOWANCES volves the Finance Board consider that DETERIVIINATION—APPROVED to be perfectly reasonable. On the other The Governor:. Now item 5 on the hand, if it appears that the majority of agenda no. I. I call on the chairman of members of this Court favour the pur- the Police Board. chase of the hotel, the hon. member, the chairman of the Tourist Board, may Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, I beg feel like withdrawing his motion alto- to move:— gether and coming forward with one That the Isle of Man Police Pay and later for the purchase of the hotel, Allowances Determination, 1963 Amendment Determination, 1967, made by the Isle of Man The Governor: In view of the urgency Police Board under section 10 (1) (e).of the Pollee (Isle of Man) Act, 1962. he and the of the matter. I think it would be wiser same is hereby approved. to take a vote on the resolution as it stands. Those in favour say aye, those This is a resolution for the approval by against say no. Tynwald ai a police determination in order to determine certain allowances ' A division was called for and voting payable to the force here in the Isle of resulted as follows:— Man. Hon. members will be aware that it has been agreed that the police In the Keys:— here shall be paid in accordance with For: Messrs MacLeod, Crowe, the provisions of the Oaksey Report on Kerruish, Radcliffe, Spittall, the same terms and conditions as for their brother officers in the United Quayle, Faragher, Canister, Kingdom. The purpose of this Corkish, Irving, Burke, Devereau, determination therefore, sir, is to bring MacDonald, Sir Henry Sugden and up the allowances payable to members the Speaker-15. of the police force to the same figures as already obtain in the United Against: Messrs Anderson, Simcocks, Kingdom. Pay is already the same, Crellin, Vereker, Kne_ale and Kelly these are adjustments to allowances. —6. There are a number of them, the boot allowance is increased to 3s. 9d. a week, The Speaker: Your Excellency, the there is an increase in the plain clothes resolution carries in the House of Keys, allowance both to inspectors and lower 15 votes being east in favour and six ranks, there is an increase, sir, in the votes against. allowance payable for refreshments and for lodgings, where officers are employed In the Council:— overnight and stationed away from home, and finally, sir, there is a new For: The Attorney-General, Sir Ralph introduction to the Isle of Man, a Stevenson, Messrs McFee, Nicholls, bicycle allowance under which officers Nivison and Radcliffe-6. are paid £11 a year or proportionately, if they use their own bicycles in the Against: Nil. public service. Push bike. As I say, sir, the determination does no more, sir, The Governor: The resolution carries than to bring conditions for our police in the Council, six votes being cast for officers into line with those already in and none against. The resolution is force in the United Kingdom and I beg therefore carried. to move the resolution.

Police Pay and Allowances Determination—Approved, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH' 23, 1967 999

Mr Corkish: I beg to second. of Liverpool, and with it went 10th Isle Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, there of Man Company of the. Auxiliary is one thing I would like to ask. In Territc:.-ial Service. They served connection with this bicycle. tcgether in many places in the United (Laughter.) An officer takes out a Kingdom, and on one day alone the bicycle for a weekend, is he allowed Regiment shot down no fewer than five £.11 for the whole year? enemy aircraft. However, in The Governor: Pro rata. (Laughter.) December, 1940, it was moved to Egypt The Governor: Is it agreed? where it provided the anti-aircraft It was agreed. defences on the Suez Canal, a very critical target for enemy bombing and where its guns were at one time almost nightly in action. It was at this time, DISBANDMENT OF THE during this time, that one of its TERRITORIAL ARMY—TRIBUTE BY batteries fought in the Sudan and SIR. HENRY SUGDEN Abysinnia and also one battery was moved to Crete. Here the officers and The Governor: Item No. 7. I call on man acquitted themselves with great the hon. and gallant member for glory being the last unit to cease firing Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden. in that Island when it was over-run by Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, the Germans and very few of them I beg to move that this hon. Court notes escaped. Then in 1942 the Regiment with great regret the disbandment of with the replacement battery moved to the Territorial Army units which have the Western Desert and became the represented the interest and participa- Light Anti-Aircraft of the 7th Armoured tion, of the Isle of Man in the Armed, Division. otherwise known as the Forces of the Crown. And further pays. Desert Rats. I can speak from personal tribute to the officers, W.O's, N.C.O's, experience of how wonderfully well the men and women who have served in Regiment did. For a time I con-unanded such units and its predecessors and who an establishment on the banks of tht have created over the last 30 years a Suez Canal and was indeed grateful for tradition of gallantry and efficiency in the remarkably accurate and quick war and peace in which this Island, shooting of the Regiment. From the through its legislature, takes justifiable time of Alamein onwards I was in the pride and requires this public Division usually fighting next to them. acknowledgment to be made. May it Then later when the Desert Rats came p'ease Your Excellency, that it is with back to Europe for the Normandy land- very real :regret that I rise to move the ings they normally fought in the Army resolution standing in my name. At the Corps of which I was chief engineer. I outset I would like to record, sir, that know that a.',ways the Regiment was your predecessor did everything that good, very good. Just after the end of was possible to persuade the powers the fighting I was surprised when one that be to allow Territorial Army units day I came in late to have lunch in the to be retained in being on this Island. Corps Commanders' mess, to find I was The present unit was formed in 1938 as sitting between two well-known faces. It a light anti-aircraft brigade. Later it happened to be the Regiment's turn to became 15th 'Light Anti-Aircraft Regi- provide the guard of honour that week ment, ii.oyal Artillery. It was embodied. for the Corps headquarters, and a very before the outbreak of hostilities in smart one it was. I think I am right in 1939 and left this Island at a strength saying that OUT Manx Regiment shot of 583 to form the anti-aircraft defences down over 200 aireraq during the war

Disbandment of the Territorial. Army—Tribute by Sir Henry Sugden. 1000 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

which is believed to be the highest different way from that being done by number of kills .made by any regiment Civil Defence? Our military history in the whole army. There must have goes back at least to 1417 when it been but few periods when, they were appears that we had universal military not actively engaged, their hands and service, and it is recorded that among oyes were always in. From England to those who were excused duty, military Egypt and through the desert to Tunis, duty, at that time were included the 24 and then from Normandy right through Keys. In 1555 we apparently had our to Berlin in action all the time is a own regular army. It consisted of one record of which to be proud indeed. captain, one master gunner and 40 After the war with the reduction in the soldiers. The total cost for this force strength throughout the kingdom of the including their pay amounted to Territorial Army the unit first became ,E,59 18s. 8d. a year. Later, the Royal first of all a locating battery Royal Manx Fencibles were raised and Artillery. Then when there was yet apparently the Island paid the who:e another re-organisation, a Company of cost although these units were available Infantry under the 5th Loyals of the to the Crown and certainly one Corps Territorial Army. Throughout the post- of them served in Ulster. However, at war period the Regiment has done the same we also maintained a Corps extremely well as gunners in the of volunteers for the defence of this practice camps which they have Island. This Corps of volunteers was attended and then later as an infantry formed, disbanded, re-formed as the unit they have always gained the praise military threats to Great Britain came of inspecting officers, At all times they and went until in 1860 a volunteer unit have co-operated willingly with Civil was revived and this time as an integral Defence and readily volunteered to part of the armed forces of the Crown. undertake any task asked of them. I A small detachment of them served in have already mentioned that this the South African war and they were Island formed a Company of the embodied in 1914. rt is interesting to Auxilliary Territorial Service. Until note that this body remained as the mens unit left for Egypt at the end volunteers until the end of the 1914/18 of 1940 the two units worked together. War despite the fact that in England The women taking on such duties as volunteer units ceased to exist and the clerks, storekeepers, drivers and cooks Territorial Army was formed in 1908. and so releasing men for more arduous These volunteers were a change on our tasks. After the war, throughout Island finances until the 1914 War when which they served in England, this unit the force was trebled and the United became as it is now called the Isle of Kingdom Government met the cost of Man Independent Platoon of the the initial equipment of the additional Women's Royal Army Corps, Territorial units. It is interesting that authority Army, and would always back up the to raise them was reluctantly given by men throughout. It is sad indeed that the Crown, and only because of the these units with their proud records wonderful voluntary recruiting efforts must disappear now from the British of this Island which in that world war Army. At this moment I have to ask — was second only to Manchester in the what of the future? We will be left . whole of the United Kingdom. Look- with cadet units only wearing ing back we see that whenever there military uniforms. Should we not build has been a threat to our shores there on them our own unit and so afford has been a clearly demonstrated patriotic, willing men and women an purpose to withstand it. Do we not, in opportunity to serve this Island in a these days stand always under such a

Disbandment of the Territorial Army—Tribute by Sir Henry Sugden. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 1001

threat? Certainly not of our own seek- emergency on the Island. The hon. ing, but due to the fact of our and gallant member for Ramsey has proximity to many ports and other given us a comprehensive survey of the places that may well be the subject of past, but I would like, if I m.ay, to look nuclear attack by an enemy. Must we more int a the ruture. We have in the not maintain an efficient organisation to Island a Civil Defence Corps of which cope with such an emergency? Whilst we can be justly proud; in numbers and there is no question of this Island being in efficiency I think it can be said to directly so attacked, these terrible compare more than favourably with any devices of the modern war have very area in the United Kingdom and I am far reaching effects and it is indeed all sure that it will not be found. wanting too probable that we would be seriously in the tasks for which it is specifically affected by fall-out and other effects. trained. However, the whole organisa- These were all too brutally depicted in tion and training of the Civil Defence the "War Game" film shown privately Cerps, ever since its inception, has about two weeks ago. Furthermore been based on the assumption that last year an exercise was held in the there will be available some help from Island which clearly showed that even tha. armed forces. Help, which over if we had only comparatively minor here, we have, in the past, had from the contamination there was an essential Terlitorial Army, Help which is now need for a body of disciplined and to be provided in the United Kingdom trained. men to be immediately available from what I think is known as the and with the authority of the arms they Volounteer Reserve, class 2 or 3. In bear to back up the police in the fact a force specifically designed for maintenance of law and order. We this purpose. I think it is recognised must also realise that at the outset of that in a real emergency an armed and any such emergency we ,cannot possibly disciplined force is required, and can expect any help from the other be one of the most important factors in side of the water. This is something restoring and maintaining the morale of about which, I believe, we have got to the population. I do not suggest, like take action. However, whatever the Sir Henry, this is ever likely to be the future may hold let us now acknowledge target for a nuclear attack, but I rio with true gratitude and .respect our suggest that, apart from the obvious great appreciation of the very proud dangers of fall-out, we cannot dis- record set up and maintained by all account the possibility of missiles being those men and women who have served delivered with complete accuracy. this Island so well in its Territorial After all, when you are considering Army units. Your Excellency, I beg to distances of 6/7/10,000 miles an error move the resolution standing in my of 50 to 100 miles is really only the name. difference between a bull and an outer. I do not think we need a large force, Mr Spittall: Your Excellency, 1 would nor one equipped with the highly very much like to support this resolu- expensive and complicated weapons of tion, not so much because I am a vice- modern war. A small lightly armed well chairman of the Territorial Army and disciplined force is the requirement, Auxilliary Forces Association, but and though even this wil.1 cost some rather because your predecessor money it might perhaps be possible appointed me some 18 months ago as to deduct its cost from the defence the Civil Defence controller of the contribution which we pay to the Island. Since that time I have Imperial Government — even if this naturally given a lot of thought to the proved to be impracticable I do not effects of war or a large scale believe that this hon. Court would

Disbandment of the Territorial, Army—Tribute by Sir Henry Sugden. 1002 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 grudge money spent on what is really they called it age, I would like to thank an insurance policy. Apart from its the hon. and gallant members for Ram- obvious use in emergency the Territorial sey and for Middle. and I would like to Army plays an important role in the thank the other hon. member for Middle community itself. It provides training as well, for the kind th:ngs that they in discipline, leadership and co-opera- have said. I would ask, and. I know that tion. These I think, are attributes Mr Simcocks will agree with me, that which. are of benefit to the whole com- whilst I have a great deal of sympathy munity and which, perhaps, we do not and a great deal of agreement with the see as much of now as we would like. suggestion that we should have some Let us therefore acknowledge our debt kind of Armed Forces ourselves, please to those who have been before, served do not let us make that the subject of a uS with such distinction and hcpe that debate on this particular resolution. we may find some means of keeping There is just one thing I want to say, alive the tradition of the Territorial Your Excellency, it is really the only Army and the tradition of the volunteer reason why I have got up. We talk about forces of this Island. Certainly, I, as the Manx Regiment; we talk about the Civil Defence controller, shall feel very Manx Territorials, I would be doing less much happier if I know that there is than my duty if I didn't draw the an armed and disciplined force avail- -attention of this hon. Court to the fact able on whom I can call. that we had, particularly nearing the end of the war, a considerable number Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, may I of foreigners, and by foreigners I do not take the oppertunity of congratulating just mean people from as far away as my hon. colleague on his maiden Andreas. We had Scotsmen, we had speech to this Court and very zood it Englishmen, we had Welshmen and was too, sir. I think it is fairly apt as Irishmen, and by the time the war an ex-airman to add my words of ended, and indeed after they had been support to these gallant gentlemen who in. the regiment only a few months, they fought for us so many years ago. I were, I can assure you, more Manx than remember well flying over Liverpool the Manx, and it would be wrong if this and noting the accuracy of their gun- tribute didn't mention them, Thank you, fire. (Laughter.) Nevertheless I think Your Excellency. it is a loss to the life of the Island where those who wish, to serve should Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, I would be afforded the opportunity so to serve. also like to supoort this resolution and I have bean looking round the Court and The Attorney - General: Your I do not know whether Mr Nicholls was Excellency, looking around this hon. in the first world war or not, but if he Court I am rather staggered to find that wasn't, I am the only member in this the only person, besides myself. who hon. Court that was, and, Sir Ralph, who had the honour and extreme good was in the first world war and I was in fortune of serving with the Manx the first lot of Volunteers—the Isle of Territorials, is the hon. member for Man Volunteers—just in 1914, but I was Rushen, Mr Simeocks. I say I am too young and I couldn't get away with surprised becauSe as far as I can them and I got flung out until I joined recollect every one of us was an tro in 1015, but I do support the amateur politician and I am amazed to resolution. see that only one of us has really made the grade. Now as an ex-member of the The Governor: Is it agreed Territorials, finally thrust out on the basis of age, probably inefficiency, but It was agreed.

Disbandment of the Territorial Army—Tribute by 'Sir Henry Sugden. TYNTWADI3 COURT, MAECH 23, 1967 1003

PURCHASE OF PART OF THE should be publicly-owned and available GLENCRUTCHERY ESTATE for future developments. The price of —APPROVED 225,000 for an area of 20 acres is approximately the price of 5s. 2d. per The Governor: Now finally, into battle square yard. The valuer reported that once again. Item 4 on the agenda, the site has .a frontage on Glen.crutchery number one, I call upon the chairman of Road of 1,380 feet, and of Victoria Road the Isle of Man Local Government 7.60.feet. The valuer further stated that Board. he was aware the present site, together with a further 17-7 acres of adjoining Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I land. that is 37.8 acres in all, was beg to move:— purchased -in December 1950 for- £68,649 That Tynwald approves of the Lon' or an average of £1,815 per acre. In Government Board purchasing approximately January 1961 the Douglas Corporation 20 acres of land lying to the south of purchased 17-7 acres for £12,600, that is Victoria Road and to the east of Glencrutchery Road in the Borough of £650 per acre. This land was purchased Douglas and forming part of the Glen- for the purpose of extending Noble's crutchery Estate from the executors of the Park and the T.T. Grandstand facilities. estate of William Vyner deceased for the So far as the valuer was aware no sum of .£25.000 together with legal costs and charges. further plots have been sold of this land. He considered that the price of £1,815 Your Excellency, I feel certain that most per acre in 1950, when the land was of the problems facing the Local Purchased was excessive, but there may Government Board are ones that this have been other considerations involved. Court do honestly back. Putting this The price paid by the Douglas Corpora- resolution to the.Court, Your Excellency, tion, that is £650 per acre, was arrived in 1966, Messrs. Sykes, Waterhouse & at after negotiations between the Co., Estate Agents, Water Street, Liver- valuers acting for the vendor, and. the pool, wrote to the secretary of the Local purchaser, and the valuer's opinion Government Board enquiring if the represented a realistic value at that board was interested in the purchase of time. The price offered by the board, this land which lies to the west of that is £25,000 for 20 acres, represents Victoria Road and to the south of Glen- £1,250 per acre. This price is fair and crutchery Road, Douglas. On enquiry reasonable bearing in mind the cost of the sum of £35,000 was asked for the land in the Douglas area where suitable land, The board had the land valued by building land is scarce. The board has Mr T, H. Kennaugh, valuer, who been advised by its technical and assessed the value at £21,000. The professional officers that all the land is members of the board met a partner in capable of development. The board seek the firm of Sykes, Waterhouse & Co. in approval to purchase and hold this land Liverpool in August 1966, and discussed until such time as the policy for its use the purchase of this land. The board is decided upon. by Tynwald. I beg to offered, subject to the approval of move, Your Excellency. Tynwald, £25,000 as a final figure. After some conferences and correspondence, Mr Kelly: I beg to second and reserve the agents for the owners accepted the my remarks. board:'s offer. The whole of the land has already been approved for development Mr Devereau: Your Excellency, the under the Town and Country Planning chairman of the Local Government Act. A blinding line of 45 feet has been Board knows that the Douglas Corpora- set on the Glencrutchery Road. The tion are very concerned as to the use board is of the opinion that this land this land will be put to. We in the

.Pnrchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. 1004 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH. 23,1967

Douglas Corporation are anxious that just la question of paying this sum of a green belt should be maintained in money for land. Like in everything that area. The type of buildings that else, it is all that it involves. There may go on there could be objected to, would be drainage, and sewerage arid perhaps, by people in that highly rated so on, and it might involve us in much more than just buying a piece of land. area. The green belt that should be pre- Is the object in buying the land just to served there 'has other advantages. We buy it and leave it as it is, for if that do not know, in this day and age, how is the policy, why buy the land .at all? far we may •ao towards a he:icopter Why not leave it in the hands of the service and I can think of no better people who do not want to develop it? place for a helicopter field, a landing ground, than that particular area. I am Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I not at all against this resolution but would like to move an amendment to would like some assurance from the this to make it a bit more palatable 't4 chairmen of the Local Government the members of the Douglas Corporation Board, if he is able to give it, that this sitting here. I think it has been discussed land will not be built on with a type of with the chairman of the Local Govern- building that would not be agreeable to ment Board that an amendment should the amenity of the surrounding district. be made to add to the end of this resolu- tion the words "to be retained and used Mr Burke: Your Excellency, I would for such purposes as Tynwald may like to ask the chairman of the Local determine." Government Board has he been informed of a resolution of the Finance Committee Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I think of the Douglas Corporation at ia meeting we have got to understand the back- held on the 15th March in reference to ground of development and local gov- this matter? I am not a 'member of the ernment in the Island. That is this. Finance Committee now of Douglas Douglas Corporation, and the members Corporation, but I have been. They are of Douglas Corporation, ought to be well very concerned about this. In January aware that at the moment there is a 1960 there was a proposal put forward planning scheme being prepared by the for the Douglas Corporation to purchase Local Government Board and in con- this land, and the iorice then was £36,000 junction and co--ordination with the and the Corporation at that time, per- Corporation itself. Now they •are pre- haps like the Local Government Board, paring for their town a development now, didn't know what to do with the plan. They have right of consultation; land if they bought it, I think. But we they have to give their ideas, their find now from the Local Government suggestions, and this is an obligation on Board chairman that far from agreeing the Planning Committee of ,the Local that this Should be •a green belt and Government Board to accept • them; to preserved as an open space, I would like consult before any decision is made on to know for what purpose this land is a planning scheme. The planning scheme likely to be used, because he talks of a can even be submitted ultimately to building line and future developments, public enquiry, and then has to be and if there is to be some building there, Kaproved by Tynwald. Now I feel that I rather suspect that this talk of which if this is the Draper machinery and the we had yesterday of £120,000 for a fire correct procedure under legislation, that station—I em rwondering if this piece it would be very unwise to accept the of land is being ear-marked for that amendment moved by the hon. member purpose. But if there is going to be for Peel, because it could tie the hands, building development then, it is not even of the Local Government Board, Irif:T7144k".74 eNft-irm-. • • Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 1005

the Douglas Corporation and the plan- the playing fields, and if it was put ning authority which is appointed under down on the lower .part the people in special statute with special powers un- Little Switzerland would object. der those statutes to control building and development of all kinds in any Mr MacDonald: It's terrible. area of the Island. The Do.uglas Cor- Mr Corkish: Well they are very big poration have a right of consultation, ratepayers. They are not going to have have La right to prepare with the Local a big school. Now Mr Kelly informed ive Government Board any development In that the Martin Baker building down at their area and produce a plan for that Ronaldsway comprises +half an acre. I purpose. You can trust the Douglas do not know. Mr. Kelly, the member for Corporation to. consult and trust the Ramsey told me that Martin Bakers Planning Committee without tying their occupied half an acre. hands at. this moment because ulti- mately, no matter what development Mr McFee: It covers nearer four takes place,. must come as a scheme to acres. Tynwald and you are protected and I would say certainly leave it that way. Mr Corkish: Well he has led me up the aley again, you know. Mr Corkish; Your Excellency, this land at ,Glencrutchery Road, it is a fact Mr Burke: He's got his figures wrong. that they wanted £.36,000. The Vyner Mr Corkish: Well, they wanted five estate it was. We 'bought 17 acres by acres for the School of Further Educa- compulsory purchase to extend the tion. Now we agreed to that, the Cor- Grandstand and extend a little golf poration deputation agreed that we course at Noble's Perk. Now this land would let them have this land at the top has 'been lying dormant, practically for of Linden Grove where it would be almost 10 years and there have been two away from the main road and would not plots sold on this land which goes to interrupt or affect the green belt end we prove that it is not a development land. were prepared to buy the 20 acres back There is r6-inch sewers on this land and from the Local Government Board to if 'anybody goes to develop it, the maintain the green belt. We also sug- sewerage costs will be tremendous. Now gested that we were prepared to give the Corporation wrote and got in contact land at Anagh Coar for the Fire with the Local Government Board—I Station, and that we promised that we saw it on the Tuesday, it waS confiden- would do our best to build eight houses tial. On the Wednesday when the to have the permanent firemen living agenda was published, as chairman of at Anagh Coar close to the station. We Finance, the Town Clerk contacted me have bent backwards to help the Local and said that we call a special meeting. Government and the Local Government We did do. We contacted the Local Board, I must say, there is no fight be- Government Board land they were very tween us, I must say they were very very nice, and they received the Cor- decent to us and I thought that was poration Finance Committee delegates. going to be the arrangement. Now the Now there is 25 acres of this land and it chit-Limn/1 hasn't said anything about the was suggested, first et all, that the School of Further Education but we School of Further Education would be were prepared to let it go up at the top put on this land, but there was no indi- of Linden Grove, away from the main cation where. Now there are people in road. the First, Second and Third Avenues in Glencrutchery Road who we knew would Mr MacDonald: He is not asking about object if it was put run on the top part of the School of Further Education.

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. . 1006 TYNWALD COURT, 'MARCH 23, 1967

Mr Corkish: You don't have to have a Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, on a school. point of information this was debated in the Representation of the People Act Mr MacDonald: No, I said he is not and it was turned down. It was not asking about it. He is just asking for— agreed to. Mr Corkish: The School of Further Education we suggested should go there. Mr Kneale: It may have been turned Five acres and we would buy the re- .down but it is still my opinion that this mainder of the twenty so that we would is what should be done. Now we have have a green belt round the town of had reference to the College of Further Douglas, and would also give access Education. Now I brought resolutions to that wonderful glen, Summerhill forward as long ago as last June to get Glen, which Celchan even advertise as a site for this College, and in July I one of their amenities. They do. Onchan brought forward a resolution having advertises as one of the amenities of obtained a site and on the suspension the Onchan village. of Standing Orders—it was defeated on that. Later on I was told, almost imme- Mr Burke: They haven't got much else. diately, after this Court and I was in- formed by the then dhalrman of the Mr Corkish: Well, it's there that they Local Government Board that they had advertised it as such, and we would like other land in view and they would make that we should retain this land. We a portion of this available to us if we would part with the live acres, but we would drop our claim on the site of do want to retain the land and keep the Bailakermeen. Now, in view of this the green belt. Local Government Board have gone ahead -with their negotiations to pur- Mr MacDonald: Well why didn't you chase this land and we, on the Board of buy it? Education, have sat quietly in the back- ground waiting for them to obtain it. Mr Cork ish Well the question has just Having been promised a section of it, been asked—Why didn't we buy it? We we indicated that we would need on weren't going to pay £36,000, and there this land about seven and a ihalf acres. has been no attempt since then—end Now, Mr Corkish, Alderman Corkish, his land is not development land at all has made reference to the view that the because there are only two plots sold. people in First, Second and Third It's been lying empty now, this land, it Avenue would object if we put it on has not been .developed--- the top pant, and he says they -also knew that the people in Little Switzerland Mr McFee: They didn't went to sell would object if we lout lit on the bottom isolated plots, that's why. part. Well the area we had picked out Mr Corkish: They were prepared to. was nowhere near the First, Second or There is a plan. We have seen a plan of Third Avenue, and it was certainly no- the plots. where near Little Switzerland. He -also made reference that they would 'agree Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, I have to it i we put it down at the top of commented in the past about divided Linden Grove. Well the top of Linden loyalties in this Court, and I have ex- Grove does not 'come in the area that pressed strong opinions that members has to be purchased. There is a strip of once elected to Tynwald should re- land between the top of Linden Grove linquish their positions on other bodies and the area to be purchased which —other local authorities. Now today we stops 'that. There is ra little tiny patch of have thad the Douglas Corporation land at 'the top of Victoria Avenue, an

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 1007

area of less than two acres. I say other land. Now I can only see one a, lot less than two acres which was answer to this now, and that is that the completely inadequate for the purpose College of Further Education, the we required it. Now our intention in the Board of Education must relinquish first place was not to put the buildings their claim on any portion of this land up on the road; it was to leave the top and at a subsequent 'meeting of this part clear and put our buildings at the Court bring forward our original pro- bottom end of 'the area. That we would posals again to buy the Ballakerrneen have an entrance coming in .at the top site and get going. of the area and that we would have another entrance coming through at the Mr 'MacDonald: ilVfruch dearer. top of Victoria Avenue, GO we would have a two-way. Now the Corporation MT Kneale: It's not much dearer. It have had ample opportunity to come may be dearer at the outset but this forward and purchase this land them- land is already sewered. We would save selves. There is no doubt about this, they a lot on the lay-out and it would be could have come and got it by compui- cheaper, and we would not be faced sory purchase but they haven't. They with the objections that have been sug- have waited until somebody else makes gested that we are going to get in this a move and this has been no secret that area and, with that in view the Local Government Board have been Mr McFee: It would spoil your negotiating for this land. It has been no development. secret for at least nine months. it is only when they come forward at the last Mr Kneale: It would spoil our de- minute when all the obstacles are out velopment if we carry on on this Glen- of the way, and they are ready to pur- crutchery site, with the objections that chase, that in steps the Corporation and have been put in. This Would spoil it. In they want to put objections in. fact we couldn't develop it, so our only alternative is to 'take the only other site Mr Corkish: We never heard about that is available to us and which we have this purchase. It was only Tuesday we got an option on and get going as soon got to know about it. as we can to purchase this site. Then we can start drawing up our plans for Mr Kneale: Well then you are not what we are going to do for the future. in the know. You are the only It will take us two years to prepare the people in the Island that are not in plans, once we know the site, but with the know. Now they suggest that we all this here delay that has been 'brought shove our place right down at the on by the Corporation. When you have bottom. We would have a long, thin, reached not only the eleventh hour, you narrow building which would be com- are just about one minute off midnight, pletely inadequate and absolutely use- before they step in and, in view of that, less for the purpose for which we re- I am giving the Court notice now that quire. Now if we are going to be faced this will be the view of the Board of now, as I say we have already wasted Education and what we will be doing nine months waiting for this deal to go in the very near future. through and not proceeded with our other land. If we are going to be landed Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency. now with delayinz tactics of appeals. I ;am very disturbed about what has and counter-appeals, and all that the been said in this Court. As I understand delay that this means, it could be it. the hon. member of Council Mr eighteen months to two years before we MciFee, has told us that there is in 'course would get the okay. In the meantime of preparation a town plan, or ,a zoning we would have lost our option on the plan, for Douglas. We don't know,

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. 1008 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967 whether or not, that this particular bit Mr Corkish: That's okay. That is all of ground will he in a green belt, as has we want. been suggested by the Corporation, and The Speaker: But at the same time-- if the Corporation are eonsulted in the preparation of this Town plan, zoning Mr McFee: .For the extension of the plan, whatever you call it, one assumes cemetery, that is all you think about— that it will be. I cannot .agree that this hon. Court shou.:d agree to spend the The Speaker: Your Excellency, I have taxpayers' money of this Island, pur- no objection whatever to Local Govern- chasing land that is going to he sterile ment Board doing that and I believe in a green. belt. To me it just does not that the Local Government 'Board in make sense. their wisdom, will probably decide to do such a thing. At the same time one Mr Corkish: The Corporation will buy is aware that the Local Government it. Board also have requirements for land in and around Douglas and I believe The Speaker: Your Excellency, in that it still might be possible to meet, rising to support the resolution I compli- not only the Local Government Board ment the Local Government Board on requirements in this area, because let us taking the initiative on this occasion. remember there is more land on the Your Excellency, much has been said lower section—there are at least two about the preservation of land at Glen- fields if my recollection is right, being crutchery, and I want to make it quite purchased here, below the Glen- clear at the outset that I sympathise crutchery level, running down the road with the Corporation in their desire to opposite Sumrnerhill Glen and I would maintain a green belt along that road. have thought those fields would have I think this is very desirable and lent [themselves to development—could whether it is the eleventh hour or not it have accommodated a School of Further is Tight that they should make their Education. Could, if necessary, Anegh point. Let us recall the Lezayre Road Coar appeals to me as a Fire Station at Ramsey, where you had a lovely site—it could, if necessary, have served stretch of land out to what was known for that 'purpose as well. I think all pur- as Gardeners Lane, but, unfortunately poses could [be met by the acquisition of the retention of that particular green this land and I think we should allow the belt was marred by the permission given Local Government Board to get on, pur- hy the Local Government Board at that chase it, and use their discretion after time to erect a number of bunglows at usage believing that the Court is of the extreme end. Intentions were all opinion that the retention of that area right but the result has been one of the along Glen,crutchery Road is a desirable real attractions of Ramsey lost. I regard thing as far as Douglas is concerned. the drive or walk, if you like, along GIencrutchery as one of the attractions Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, if I of Douglas. I should like to see it main- could just take the remarks made this tained and I see nothing wrong with afternoon in jhe hon. Court and deal permitting the ,Local Government Board with them in reverse, if the Court will to get on with this acquisition. We are permit me. I think the hon. Speaker saying to the Local Government Board put in exactly the picture this afternoon we would like you to negotiate with in his remarks—the position the Local Douglas and, if Douglas wants a section Government Board find themselves in. of this land to retain it, there is the An we want to do is purchase this land price, we will sell it to you and you can and we feel certain that negotiations have it— between both the Corporation, the

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, VIAIRCH 23, 1967 1009

School of Further Education, the Fire on it, and I am .quite prepared to accept Service Committee; we can deal with the amendment put forward by Mr Mac-. all these things afterwards. We have no Donald. I understand this is the view wish, no intention, Your Excellency, to expressed by the Finance Board and as allow or permit building along the he is the only member of the Finance frontage of Glencrutchery Road. We Board here at present, I take it he has sympathise with the idea the Corpora- been asked to put this forward and we tion put forward that a certain amount are quite prepared to accept it. I think of this should be retained as a green generally the main point put forward belt, and we are quite prepared, after was the matter of the retention of the giving this matter consideraion, and the green belt. Remarks were made as to various planning permission has been why this land hadn't been developed in granted to different people to develop the past. We were given to understand in certain areas of it, that negotiations that when private individuals ap- could be continued with the Corpora- proached the owner to purchase plots tion, and a certain amount of the land they were asked as high as 25s. per could possibly be sold back to them for square yard for land on the frontage of retention as a green belt. •We do not— the road, so naturally at that time I pre- the Local Government Board — as a sumed .that was rather a high price and Board of this Tynwald, intend to pur- individual developers there did not pro- chase land to retain it as a green belt. ceed and as my ex-chairman has already If it has got to be retained as a green said, the company owners wish to sell it belt the Corporation can purchase it as an entirety, not in individual plots, hack from us to retain it as e green and that was why they agreed to reduce belt. This was valuable property offered their price considerably to accept what to us and we felt it was a golden pppor- we are now offering. I beg to move the tunity to snap it up and as nobody else resolution. was showing interest at that time we did go on with the negotiations and we The Governor: Nobody has yet hope this Court will now 'back us. If I seconded yclur amendment. could just briefly mention some of the remarks made individually — we did Mr McFee: I beg to second it. meat the Finance Committee of Douglas Corporation, that Mr Burke referred to; The Governor: I shall now put the we are always very pleased to meet any amendment. That the words as follows, deputation to speak on any negotiations be added to the end of the resolution: regarding development, and we had a "to be retained and used for sudh pur- very amicable meeting with them and poses as • Tynwald may determine". I think they went away assured that Those in favour of the amendment before any development would take please say aye, those against 'say no. place we would be in consultation with them. Mr MpFee; my good friend of the A division was called for and voting Council,_ mentioned Mr MacDonald 's resulted as follows— amendment. Well I suppose we would actually accept it as an amendment. I In the Keys— have no objection, I did refer to it in For: Messrs Crowe, Kerruish, Rad- my remarks, that if we, were permitted cliffe, Callister, Darkish, Burke, to buy this land, as already said, we Kneale, Devereau, MacDonald-9. would come 'back to Tynwald; we would have to come back to Tynwald with any Against: Messrs Spittall, Faragher, suggestion of development for a Fire Crellin, Vereker, Kelly, Sir Henry Station or whatever it may be going Sugden and the Speaker-7.

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved. 1010 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1967

The Speaker: The .arnenclment carries The Governor: The amendment is in the House of Keys, Your Excellency. carried in the Council. POUT votes being Nine votes being cast in favour, seven cast for, and one against. Now the votes against. resolution as amended. Those in favour Say aye, against no. In the Council— It was agreed. For: The Attorney-General, Sir Ralph The Governor: Hon. members that Stevenson, Messrs Nicholls and concludes our 'business. The Council will Raddiffe-4, rimy withdraw and leave the Keys to such business as Mr Speaker may put Against: Mr McFee—l. before you.

HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Thursday, March 23; 1967

The Speaker: Hon. members of the The Speaker! In point 'of fact what the House of Keys, I call upon the hon. hon. member is doing, he is giving notice member for South Douglas, 'Mr Corkish. of his intention to ask leave to introduce a bill. Mr Oarkish: I would like to ask per- mission of The members of the House Mr ,Corkish: Yes, sir. of Keys for leave to introduce a Betting Shop Bill for cash betting. Now I can The Speaker: Now has any other tell you the result of the debate in member any business he wants to raise. Tynwald, I have had a copy of this bill No. In that case, gentlemen the 11th sent to me and it is still no cash betting. April at 11 a.m. in our own chamber, It is worse than what it is at present. will be the date on which we resume So .1 am asking leave to introduce a our deliberations. I thank you and I private members bill. hope you have a very pleasant Easter.

Purchase of part of the Glencrutchery Estate—Approved.