REVELATIONS “It all started with Casper [Clausen] from Efterklang. The last performance I saw, the last anything that involved being around people, was Efterklang at London’s Barbican. It was such an electric moment. We are living in a time of society being pulled apart, even before Covid-19, and it was the most united I’ve felt with a group of people for so long. That moment of unity was punctured by lockdown immediately afterwards. So that made me think about Casper and the way he works, how Efterklang are so collaborative. At the same time, I was also talking to the director of a film I was supposed to be doing at the 90 time – and am currently working on – about collaborating with her and the team. Collaboration and being among people is such an important part of being an artist, even just being on the streets Three conversations and observing. Then, suddenly, we were stripped of that. I was interested in asking these people to talk to each other – curated by conversations between artists who have a real appreciation of human connection. I also wanted these artists to take their own portraits, with no brief apart from to show themselves as they want to be seen. JOSH O’CONNOR I chose Alasdair [McLellan] because I always felt you could recognise one of his images immediately, it feels like there’s a narrative through-line in his work. His representation, often of the North, but also the countryside... the boyish nature of it, has always appealed to me. When I researched for God’s Own Country, I used a lot of Alasdair’s early imagery in my scrapbooks. I knew that Francis [Lee, director] was a great fan, and I thought it would With self portraits from lockdown be really interesting to hear a conversation between them. Alvaro [Barrington] has been on my radar for a long time. I saw his work in an exhibition and loved it, and then very early in lockdown I heard a Talk Art podcast with him and enjoyed him speaking about how he visualises and draws. What attracted me to him is how committed he is to the craft of being an artist. During lockdown, we had to take a step back from materialistic things Actor Artist Photographer and rely on craft: gardening, cooking, stuff that we have lost touch Josh O’Connor Alvaro Barrington Alasdair McLellan with over a long time. Similarly to Alvaro, June [Ambrose] paves + + + the way in her own field, changing culture and ideas through Musician Costume Designer Filmmaker the act of physically making things, which I believe is incredibly Casper Clausen June Ambrose Francis Lee powerful.” — Josh Josh + Casper CURATED BY JOSH

Josh O’Connor: Hey, Casper. Where are you in the Josh: Not really. I’ve had this flat for about a year, be you meet up and you have the text and you start world right now? and before that I grew up in the countryside in the west bouncing ideas back and forth? Casper Clausen: I’m in Copenhagen, where are you? of England. I came to London like ten, eleven years ago. Josh: It depends on the director. Ours, Simon Josh: I’m in London, in my flat. I’ve moved all over London and spent time in America Godwin, is magic, he’s really clever and a very non- Casper: Thank you for inviting me to do this. and New York – I’m never here. traditional, modern theatre maker. But his first two Josh: Oh, I’m so pleased you could. Interestingly, the Casper: Gotcha. It’s where your things are I suppose, weeks of rehearsal are without dialogue, it’s all about last show I saw before lockdown was Efterklang at the like I see you have a little painting up there, I guess you touch and how we engage physically with each other, so Barbican and it was magic, such a special evening. store your things there. That’s how I felt when I started it’s the extreme opposite. But ultimately that’s on pause. Casper: For us as well. thinking a lot about the things, the stuff... Another one of my themes was this idea of audience and Josh: I think it’s a special space. I’ve done a play there Josh: Objects, right? I suppose theatre really has no coming back right now and it’s amazing acoustically but then the architecture of Casper: Objects, yeah. in that sense. the building is kind of... Josh: Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? Casper: No, I mean I suppose we could compare Casper: Incredible. I love brutalism, so when you walk Casper: Never, no. theatre to live music and film to recordings in some in there and you start seeing how the plants fall over Josh: I always loved it because the main character, way... if you take music and acting. the concrete, there’s something kind of magic. I really Candide, learns about optimism and there’s a very Josh: What do you think about live music? like that clash of human structure and then this organic famous quote from it which is, “All’s for the best in all Casper: First of all, I’m a little bit worried for a lot nature that’s creeping out of there. It’s such a specific the best possible worlds.” It’s satirical so he like, loses of places at the moment. I think a lot of venues have and very compressed area. When you stand inside that an arm at one point and he’s like, “All’s for the best, it been surviving but I also think it will take much longer yard, you know where the restaurant [in the Barbican] is will be better.” The conclusion is that Voltaire basically before we can actually start using them. Now I follow the all you can see? I’m actually living in Lisbon so I’m just suggests that all we can really do in the end is tend to discussion a little bit in Denmark and the theatre will here by chance for the first time to work on new music our garden. I really love this line that’s like, whatever we start opening up for an audience but the problem is that with Efterklang. explore, whatever we challenge or discuss, ultimately we the structure of these places is not really made for half Josh: Have you lived in Lisbon for a long time? have our patch and be that your soul. capacity. As soon as they open the doors they might lose Casper: I’ve been there like three years or something Casper: Yeah it can be many things I suppose, it’s money, so it will be a struggling time. The best I saw was and obviously I’ve been back and forth here with the somewhere you put your hands into something and a news piece on The Guardian where Barcelona is opening band and so on, so my mind’s been a little bit split. I’ve you kind of feel... Like I’d never had a massive physical their Royal Theatre and streaming concerts for a plant been outside of Denmark for ten years, I lived in Berlin space but I guess I’ve been growing it in different ways, audience, so they’re putting one in each seat [laughs]. and I spent the whole of lockdown in Lisbon, so for me, whatever that would be. I think existential thinking has It’s incredible and they will give all these plants to the talking about lockdown, that’s been my setting. been happening much more these three months and I’m health workers of Spain afterwards as a sort of gratitude. Josh: That’s really interesting, I was discussing with sure we’re not the only ones in that sense. All this stuff Josh: That’s great. the guys at HERO about the things that feel relevant in starts catching up on you. It feels like running from Casper: These sort of things would never have lockdown and something that has felt really strange for something for a long time and suddenly somebody just happened – I’m very excited about that rethinking of me has been the idea of home and what feels like home. pauses you, so now you think about it all for a minute. space. But it is spaces right, so what do we do with these? So it’s interesting that you have lived away and have gone Josh: I think there’s a difference between choosing With screening concerts, I was positively surprised. We back to Copenhagen, has this brought up any questions to isolate and being forced into it. It’s interesting with streamed a concert from last year, where we played of where home is? someone like you – and my work as well – where it’s so our opening show of our latest album, Altid Sammen, Casper: It’s really relevant. I think ‘home’ as a collaborative… I watched An Island [an abstract music alongside a live-chat, and it was just so incredible to see phenomenon has sort of gotten to me. I don’t remember documentary on Efterklang created by French filmmaker these people together. You know, we’d met them around the exact words but someone was making a little cartoon Vincent Moon in 2011] many years ago and I loved it so the world over the years but suddenly they were in the strip where they had this person and their home was much. There are little moments in that where I think same room – chat room – talking with each other and constantly following the person, trying to catch up with you describe yourselves as playmates, like you’re all a asking us things. It seemed like people were genuinely them. And then suddenly Corona comes and it sort of group of playmates discovering things together. I wonder excited about being there and seeing the show. For us, it catches you there and you go like, “Oh, that’s what home what this time period does to you as a collaborator? First was like, “Wow, we’re here sharing this experience in a is?” That’s a little bit like how I felt. I’ve been running of all, were you isolated? Were you forced to be alone? virtual space, not just streaming but we are here in this away from home a little bit, to be honest, and I think Casper: Yeah I was forced to be alone. I didn’t have a moment.” That made me think, whether I’m just older that’s what I’ve been processing a lot. Doing this the last girlfriend and I was in Lisbon. Basically what happened or I don’t know, it might be different if you’re growing three months has been like, “How does it feel?” Make was we were touring, like you saw in Barbican, and then up with another technology, but for me it felt like that food, take care of your stuff, make it nice where you are. we toured a week more and we were supposed to end was the holy thing, to share the moment together. Because I’ve always been bouncing back and forth on it in Milano on the 6th March, which obviously got Josh: In the theatre world, there’s a new format tour, and if I have been somewhere I’ve been very easy cancelled. So we went south of Europe and home from called NT Live here, where they film a production and about being in a place, not really having... You know there. I got into my apartment and then I stayed there. I then it’s screened in cinemas. It’s a really great way of like I’ve been with ex-girlfriends who have had a really was unsure if I should stay or go, but I had my network making revenue for the theatres, but in this time of strong attachment to their home and I’d always have to and my friends. I have my studio there so I might as well Corona, they’re streaming all these past plays. I found kind of learn what that space was rather than feeling just stay around and see how that feels. Did you spend it them very – I guess unlike live music actually, where natural around it. So it’s been really good for me because alone or do you have a partner? I have watched live music streams and recordings of I hadn’t really taken my time to feel calm around a space Josh: My girlfriend lives with me so we’ve spent most performances and I find them hugely emotional and like that in a while. of our time, all of our time actually, together, which engaging, not necessarily the same as a live performance. Josh: Yeah it’s interesting, isn’t it? I’m like you, is great and I love that. But I think in terms of work, But what’s interesting about the theatre is that I don’t, I spend all my time filming anywhere but here. So it’s I’m prepping for a film, so that’s time I would spend I don’t at all. You feel very removed. I read something kind of strange re-learning how to own a space and feel alone anyway and that’s really enjoyable, but I think you a few weeks ago about a study that was done in the US like that is home. Especially when all the news and start to realise it is so collaborative. I was supposed to be about the experience of theatre and live music that politics has been about staying at home, anywhere you rehearsing a play at the National Theatre and we were looked into this. Basically, they examined groups of go or any television you turn on or newspaper you open, meant to start next week to open in September. We’re people watching and engaging in performance, be it it’s ‘stay at home.’ I keep thinking like, “Oh shit, I don’t having these Zoom calls where we’re trying to explore theatre or live music, they took their heart rates and on know where that is.” the play and understand the text and it just doesn’t feel – several occasions during the performance there was a Casper: The place where you are now, is that a place Casper: How would you normally do it if you were united heart rate among the audience. I thought this was you’ve had for a while? physically in the same room? The first thing would spectacular, like a scientific articulation of what it feels REVELATIONS

like to perform. There were moments when I saw you at she did that brilliant piece in New York where everyone get back to normal?” It troubles me because on an the Barbican – and I know a lot of your performances are would come and sit and look at her and they’d engage individual level it’s horrifying and the idea of anyone like that – you were amongst us, you came out into the with her eyes. being ill or sick from a virus is horrible. No one wants audience and we were all as one. Casper: The Artist Is Present [performed at MoMA that. But the idea of going back to normal? I think we Casper: It looks bizarre when you look at it now in 2010]. are sick generally and I wonder if there’s a way of seeing [laughs]. Josh: The Artist Is Present, that’s right. I think there’s the wider version of that. Josh: But that’s a kind of feeling which I don’t think something about a look which is for a brief moment, Casper: How do we heal it on a much grander scale, you can replicate on film, the live feeling of a united when you stand up on stage and perform or when you right? heart rate, or whatever it is. watch a film. I think there’s something really intimate Josh: Yeah. It seems like an opportunity to do that. Casper: I guess we talk about bacterias and viruses, in about listening to recorded music as well. But there is a I think what people have been overlooking or sort of that sense there is a sort of strange trust in that feeling. connection which, I think in this time where we are so missing is the benefit that we would all gain from Like by hugging someone, kissing someone or sharing disconnected, we’re kind of weirdly longing for. respecting our environment and each other. For so long something, maybe you didn’t think so much about it, Casper: I think so too. I think we find it in different it’s been as though it would be too much work, the idea I didn’t think too much about it before but there is a people. Then we talk about screens here, we’re sitting has been that in order to save our environment and exist way of, you kind of make a pact with each other like, on different sides of a screen and I always felt very in a healthy, eco way, you have to go backwards. But “Whatever I have, you might as well have, too,” you comfortable in a space like on a stage in terms of using I think we can gain so much and I think often the places know? In the last couple of months, we’ve been so aware my expression to read people, whereas on a screen, where you learn that is through art. So obviously that’s of that say, danger, or you know, the dangers of life in a I seem to struggle a little. your responsibility and mine, to engage in a way that has way, that’s kind of what happens when you put a lot of Josh: I’m like you, I feel like if I have a superpower, more heart and soul. people into the same space, you need to trust each other it’s going into a room and feeling like I can understand Casper: It’s very curious you say that. I think you are and I need to trust people when I’m performing. It’s an energy. I guess that’s my job as an actor, to study really right, we have to flip this discussion into something something that has always interested me, as actors and people and try and engage with their feelings. that is exciting to be part of. So we talk about trying to performers, we share a lot of similarities, in the sense Casper: You even become them, right? change our behaviours into a more climate-friendly way that we stand in front of people. Whereas I always had Josh: Right, and so when I walk into a room, or if we and putting out less traces. We have to figure out what this liberating feeling as a singer because I can act like were sat in the same room, I think I would find it easier. the human being on this planet is. Like what are we David Bowie could but I can also totally embrace the As far as you’re concerned I’m more engaged with you if actually doing here? What should be our mission for moment of just being there as Casper in a space. I look at the camera, but then I can’t see you and when the future? Then when we engage ourselves in building Josh: I think there’s a difference and I know that I look at you here [points to screen], I’m more engaged more green, behaving more green, teaching more green, I would find it very hard. If ever I had to stand up on a for me, but you’re not looking into my eyes. So basically politically putting together rules and regulations for it, stage as Josh or give an award or talk to people, I find it you lose eye contact. And then there’s something about a this should be something that we are excited to see, to terrifying. That doesn’t really come to me naturally. It’s shared space which we miss out on, which practically is start having more ideas of the future we want. Whereas interesting that it’s still you up there, when you step on so important, and physical touch. we’ve been lost in our generation. You are probably stage with Efterklang, are you stepping into a different Casper: Exactly, physicality is an issue. In Corona, you a little bit younger than I am but we are in the same part of Casper? really lose that sensation, it’s a sense, like we look and generation. We grew up with a sort of little future lens, Casper: Sometimes I would like to be like you, able listen but we don’t touch. I can see where you are and like we are living the times and both you and I, with our to have seals. The thing that I’m sure you can totally how you are and I can see your face and so on, but I can’t white skin in our part of the world where we grew up, recognise is that as soon as you step up on that stage really smell you, I can’t touch you, there’s something have maybe been a little bit carefree compared to our – which I find a very strange place to be – you elevate missing there. Maybe in some way, it focuses us. I think previous generations. yourself above people and they have this look towards a lot of people have been realising during these times Josh: I completely agree. you and your face and you’re suddenly something people that we can actually have these conversations without Casper: We need to establish a view of the future. get very close to and maybe feel they are part of. You having to fly across the planet, which is wonderful, but... Josh: And I do think that we are, if not our generation become a friend of a lot of people suddenly [laughs], Josh: Yeah, I mean from an environmental point of then maybe the next one. I don’t know, it feels like we are which might not be what you feel afterwards when you view it’s kind of magic and certainly in the early stages I the transitional generation maybe. Certainly, something walk out of the back door, right? For you as well, in was like, “This is a sign.” I’m a true believer in that, that like this feels like such a shock to our system that maybe an ideal world you might walk out of that door and be this is maybe a kickback of the Earth saying respect us, it will kick-start something. We’re both hopeful, so that’s forgotten in a weird way, no? respond to us, live with us. good. To finish off, what’s next? I know you said you’re Josh: Definitely, I think you’re right. I always Casper: Absolutely. A virus is – I mean we could go back in Copenhagen for Efterklang, are you hopeful recognised that growing up. I remember I used to go to deep into that – but in a way it comes from nature. As about coming back and performing again? I mean how this circus in a village near me, they were a traditional we push it away and make a bubble around ourselves, are you feeling about that? circus and would travel around England to small villages we make ourselves superior to the place where we are Casper: I’m very excited to play concerts again. and put on their show. I remember there was this mime and I find it troublesome in so many different aspects. I would love to play concerts again but I’m also trying artist at the beginning who I always loved. He would Like philosophically and politically it should make us slowly to change my perspective, right now, when I’m do this sort of not very funny sketch with an ironing all think like, “Let’s try and find out where the roots are here in Copenhagen, to start making a new Efterklang board but it was magic and he was really brilliant and in this kind of society.” Now we also have Black Lives album. It’s all based on sketches and song ideas that have I was really young, but afterwards I would wave as if I Matter coming in and highlighting stuff that we know is been brewing in the Corona times. So I feel it’s a time knew him. And it did feel like I knew him. I’ve always already there but suddenly we actually have a situation where I want to try and wrap up a little bit of that period remembered that whenever now someone comes up to right now where we could probably change some things. of time and move on to the next because Corona is not me in the street or after a play. They’ve spoken to me So I’m also an optimist like you are and I feel we should going to disappear, but the first part of it, the first stage, with the sort of familiarity that comes with feeling part use this time to start thinking about the future and what I think we can safely say we’ve kind of gone on the other of the story, or part of a moment. Interestingly, actually, future we want to live in. side, right? I mean it’s very obvious that for musicians an artist who I really admire – and I think you guys Josh: Yeah, I think there is potential for us to learn, across the planet, any artist doing music is now making probably know – was at your performance, Marina and to learn to live with our environment in a healthier records [laughs]. There will be a lot of records coming Abramović, she was there and I think it was just two way. I think the thing that troubles me I suppose is that out and we will have some issues focusing on those. So days before Ulay passed away... outside of that, when you talk about bubbles, it feels what I find very important right now is to find these Casper: I think it was the day before. like we’re putting a plaster on it a little bit. Politically, moments like I spoke about before where we can all Josh: Day before? Crazy. But I remember seeing her, the UK is in a very tricky place and I think that their gather together and have that focus. I feel like that’s she was just a few seats from me and it reminded me that response lately has very much been, “OK how do we special for a band like Efterklang. Alvaro + June CURATED BY JOSH

June Ambrose: Hey, how are you? kind of bible in tribal law theory, you move together, should. So we just have to assert ourselves whether they Alvaro Barrington: I’m OK. You know I saw you once take care of each other and you try to make a difference, like it or not. at a Loewe opening in Soho, but we didn’t meet. you try to survive. I think we have to constantly remind Alvaro: I think that’s so important. When I travelled, June: Yes, everybody was abuzz about you. each other this is what we were brought here to do. actually when I left New York, I think there were two Alvaro: When you walked in there was like an And it’s not to say that you don’t grow outside of your moments that struck me as being very important. One energy wave [June laughs]. It was just like, in the air. I culture, the goal is to help other cultures to have an was the effect of Obama’s election on how I was then remember I was with my friend who works at Supreme understanding of it so that it can become the norm able to travel through Latin America. I remember I’d and I hadn’t really followed fashion for a long time and or not something that’s so niche, or so secular. People travelled pre-Obama and like literally, the cops being was like, “Yo, who’s that?” and she was like “Yeah that’s would always say, “Oh I can tell that’s June Ambrose’s called on me because they thought, “What’s this Black June,” I was like “June?” I know what you do, but what work” because I always kept that Bronx girl, that West kid doing walking through this very rich neighbourhood do you call yourself, if you call yourself anything? Indian girl, that urban something, even if I was in a high- in some Latin American country?” And then once June: Well aside from the obvious title of costume fashion place it was still present and I wasn’t ashamed of Obama became President I’d walk in the street and designer, I like to consider myself a cultural disruptor, that. I don’t know if you feel that way too, there’s always they’d be like, “Obama! Obama! Obama!” you know? And the reason I use that term is because something about you, no matter where you’ve gone in the June: I love that you said that because some people when I started 27 years ago, that’s exactly what I was world or who you’re speaking to, it’s still you. They did say, “Well, what did Obama really do for people of doing, I was disrupting culture and changing the it in music, too. Country music, Black music, pop music, colour?” I’m like, “He existed, he was in a place of power narrative. I was tone-deaf to the perception of what everything was kind of put into these boxes and then hip that no-one ever could imagine seeing themselves.” So Black music and hip hop culture was – I saw it in a hop translated through all those genres and you started to me, that was, if nothing else, enough, because it gave different way. My aspirational vision for that time and to see all those collaborations. So we use that same me that experience. I recognise I have a responsibility that culture was very different to the norm. I disrupted it conflict of storytelling through fashion and knocking not just to myself – to my family, to the culture, to the with the aspirations of kings and queens and luxury and on the doors of these fashion houses, having that same people that I come into contact with – but also for those story-telling through costume and character development conversation and then it became more acceptable and who need someone to speak on their behalf if they don’t in a way where you feel like you’re watching a coming- global, so sometimes you have to go through the back have a voice. And it may not be the revolutionary way, it of-age film. If you look at how that culture has changed door instead of knocking on the front. It’s still provoking might not be the way that activists do it. I may take the and shifted, and how we have disrupted fashion and a conversation. I always want to keep a conversation of longer road, but at the end of the day if I look back and music – we’re the number one genre in the world, they provocativeness going, so that we create these images and I say, “Well, this was important because look what it did, didn’t see us coming, right? disrupt. We can talk about it in a way that affects change. fifteen and twenty years later and I can sleep at night.” Alvaro: You’re someone who’s done it for quite some I think Black music has done that for so many other That’s what this is about. time. Like you mentioned you’re a disruptor, whether genres, you’re seeing these collaborations of country and Alvaro: I was thinking about the diversity of Blackness it was putting on a shiny suit or that moment where hip hop, I mean it’s so great because you realise they’re and in some ways when you mention activism I think Missy [Elliott] really came out… It feels like there were finally listening to each other’s stories, you know? you need like a Stokely Carmichael but you also need two kinds of cultural disruption happening: within hip Alvaro: It makes me think about my folks emigrating a John Lewis, the guy who’s not going to be like, “Oh hop culture, and maybe what a video or the aesthetic from Grenada to Brooklyn in like 1990 and 91. Where yeah, let’s just hug it out.” I think you need all of it. of a video was supposed to look like, and then the we were in Flatbush it almost felt like you had to be June: I listen to some of them speaking and sometimes larger cultural disruption, where you had brands not West Indian. I think, “Oh my god, I wish there was a part of me that necessarily wanting to associate with hip hop and sort June: But that’s when it was cool. So we really and could do that,” but it’s just not who I am, you know what of distancing themselves. You’re on the edge of both of truly overcame some things. I grew up around Hispanics I mean? I have soft gloves where they may have hard them. One of the things that’s interesting is this idea of but then we’d moved to where there were more West gloves, they might say, “Ahhhh” and I might say, “Let me getting deeper within yourself. Especially with Black Is Indians and then I just felt like, this isn’t any fun. I hold you,” like I know you are the way you are because King [Ambrose styled Beyoncé’s 2020 visual album], do wanted to move where there was less of me because I you’re hurt, and hurt people hurt people, let me hug you. you think you’re getting closer to a fuller expression of could help us be seen in another way. So I moved to Alvaro: You brought up the idea of ‘tribe’ earlier. yourself? Whether it’s digging into carnival culture or Midtown Manhattan by the United Nations and the When you say that, it makes me think about community your mum’s atelier... it feels like you’ve expanded the building I was living in, it’s like you know, I only saw and what you’re able to do in your art form, which is two- larger reach of all those histories. it because there was no other brown girl there. There fold: be able to see people and their possibility, but also June: The jumbee, the painting... everything, yeah. It’s was one African man who sold textiles who was always see the history within the possibility. You’re also very interesting because they refer to people of colour in in and out but when I would go to the holiday parties much a student of history and you can see that within America as African-Americans but I’m West Indian so I was the only Black face that wasn’t working in the how you expanded from the 90s – both your ability to I never look at myself as African-American. I’d prefer building. They would see me walk through and I was think about performance and the body, but also how people called me Black. I think that’s a more beautiful obviously donned in something fabulous and I thought we exist. I’m really fascinated by your relationship with term. I remember back in the 70s and 80s people teasing that was really important, that I could confidently Missy and performance, but also with Mary J. Blige. me for being from the Islands and my mother having an saunter around effortlessly. I always feel that with the Mary came out and everybody just sort of came under accent or whatever. This is a culture I grew up around, conversations we’re having now, it’s not OK to just have her, like literally every girl in my neighbourhood wanted understanding what all of the images meant and how them just amongst your own colour, we have to have to to be the next Mary, how they carried themselves. important it was for us to be shiny and over the top and have them with other people of other races, they’re the June: Well I can’t take responsibility for early Mary. colourful and not be conformative. It’s kind of like the ones who need to hear the stories and the conversations I was part of her evolution when she started to become culture was tribal in a sense. We figured our own tribes and develop a sense of herd immunity. You know, we’re more of a woman and wanted to wear gowns and find a in America for music, the cliques – when you reflect a small minority but if they can see it and learn it. We’ve sophisticated part of herself. Whereas Missy, I worked back and look at it, it was like well, what was your tribe become comfortable being amongst them, so they just from the inception up until now, so that relationship going to do to make it different? What were you guys need to be comfortable, they need to see it because we’re is really different. So I wouldn’t say I could take going to do to change the way things were? And that’s beautiful people, they just don’t get access to it like they responsibility for the inception of Mary, but we’ve had REVELATIONS

moments. She’d look at me sometimes and be like, “Girl, Alvaro: But it also seems like it’s not really about don’t like photos being taken of me,” it’s because you’re where are you from? With these ideas you’re so over running away from yourself. Everything within you is thinking about the camera, but you should be thinking the top,” you know? I’m like, “I’m from the Bronx!” enough and the more you go in, the further it reaches about the feelings. Tapping into an emotion. Are you [laughs] and she’s like, “I don’t know any Bronx girls out. You see that with some artists – some are always feeling girly or are you feeling like a little boy, devilish? like you.” At the core of it all, it comes from a place of very successfully running away from themselves and I Whatever that feeling let that expression emote. It love, of possibility. You see past the idea. That’s one of think there’s no real formula to whether it’s right or always helps. Whoever I’ve told that to, they come back the biggest compliments anyone could ever give me, to wrong, they get a sense of creativity in disrupting the to me and say, “I feel better now when someone wants to say that they see me in that way, because so much of thing that they did. I think Picasso was famous for that take a photo of me, I feel like I don’t have to necessarily what we do is invisible, our muses are the ones who take in terms of figuring something out and then he’s like, “I be as present as I think they need me to be, but I can be ownership of that and they deliver. We kind of fall into got to break myself away from that thing that I know and thinking about something that makes me feel.” And that the backdrop of it. And that’s OK, that’s the magic of it, go somewhere else.” Whereas it feels like you get deeper is a beautiful expression too, it’s such a good exercise for right? But the fact that you can see that is probably one into yourself which allows you to go out more, it lets you those who hate being photographed. of the biggest compliments. go into different zones more organically. Alvaro: You’re talking about it in relation to the Alvaro: In a lot of your interviews – especially in the June: Get uncomfortable, yeah. And I’m inquisitive, internal self and it makes me think about how you must 90s – you talk about this sort of fear you have when it’s I’m always curious. I think curiosity is very important see people. Like, you’re looking at people and seeing this like, “Is this going to work?” And I wonder where that for creatives and I never want to not be curious. In energy going out, which probably ends up feeding your exists now for you in terms of these people, the clients meeting people, in experiencing, in discovering things. own practice as an artist because it’s coming at you. So it’s you work with, whether it’s from the fashion designers Even this experience is a learning one, you know? It’s like a synaesthesia of movement in a way that manifests to the artists? There’s a sort of knowingness that happens an unknowingness, because I didn’t know what this itself in all these other forms. You spoke about this era but then is there also a confidence in your growth, or conversation would be, but I showed up. That’s the being about movement again, like mumble rap is about is it still like breaking away from something that you inquisitiveness and the beauty in learning. I got to meet movement in a way, and I wondered, what does that look don’t feel comfortable with now? Are you like, “I got to you and that’s part of growth, that’s part of evolving. like in terms of you challenging your imagination for go left”? Alvaro: You mentioned something earlier that I what needs to be out there in the world? June: Well I don’t put that kind of pressure on myself, thought was really interesting. I think of you as someone June: I think that a sense of simplicity has been to feel like the antidote is to not do what everyone else who’s very attuned to your body and the movements of calling. There’s this pressure cooker right now, especially is doing. Because then that means I’m paying way too other people’s bodies and how they carry themselves in that genre of music – where you’ve got to have the much attention to the wrong things. First of all, I get through space. But it also feels like you are sort of a biggest, most expensive outfit, big and loud. I almost butterflies every project I do, whether I’m creative dancer, in a way. I went to LaGuardia High School and want to pull back a little bit now and simplify it and add directing, designing, working with an artist to help there were all these dancers who were just like... your sauce on top of that so we can see it’s OK that it’s develop a look or a photographer, whatever it is, I still get June: Moving, right? just a t-shirt and maybe a leather pair of jeans, or just nervous, I still lose sleep. I’m developing something right Alvaro: Yeah. a cardigan, you know? It’s like when we see a suit with now for consumers and when you talk about consumer June: Well I was a theatre major in schools and did no shirt underneath, it’s very simple, but then all of a goods it’s different to working in music. In music you’re dance as a minor but movement for me was more about sudden you see the man in a different way. So letting creating this image that kind of sells the story. When a release of energy. After my mum passed, I started social other things breathe and be seen. Not to say that we you’re working in consumer goods the consumer needs media. I felt so much emotion trapped inside of me and won’t go back to being flamboyant, I just think that what to trust that you are leading them down the right road. the only thing I could do was kind of throw it out, get this pandemic has afforded us is the reality of excess: So whatever the scenario is, I think I pay less attention it out and move. And because her spirit had left her we’re using too much and we need everyone to pull back to feeling the pressure of, ‘I have to go against it’. You body, I’d taken on all of this extra energy and what was a little bit. don’t always have to go against the current for it to be I going to do with it? Another artist said to me, “I look Alvaro: That makes a lot of sense. I think about art good, sometimes other people have done the work for at you dancing and it feels so free, so liberated, and I movements – like minimalism in the 60s and 70s that you to make the storytelling possible and we have to can see what it means to you.” That was so meaningful kind of came out of American excess with pop art and recognise that. I don’t want to ever be as arrogant to because she’s a dancer too and could see the energy, the Andy Warhol and all this in-your-face work, the next think that I’m reinventing the wheel. We stand on the pain or the happiness or the joy, she could see all of movement was just like, scaling back, it became about shoulders of people who come before, amazing stuff that that through the movement. I knew I was doing it but I clearing out. If you think about hip hop as being close really helps us to draw our own interpretation of certain didn’t think anyone else would know why, and for those to a pop-era, because hip hop now – as much as it’s rock things. I heard you in one of your interviews say that who were super tapped in, they saw it and that was really ‘n’ roll – it’s also pop. you were so inspired by a particular artist and you can cool. I would meet people on the street and they would June: When it was initially secular and underground see it. And that’s OK too, to pay homage and be inspired. say, “Your dancing made me so happy,” or I would meet it was like, naughty, and then, as you say, popular. So I think for me, it’s more about what feels at the core. women who’d say, “The fact that you changed clothes Alvaro: Now people’s parents know who Snoop Dogg What has experience taught me in knowing that this is in front of a camera at your age was so liberating, is, you know? Snoop’s a father, a grandfather. But I think going to work? And you take risks, you have to, because watching you I felt it was so daring.” For me it’s just that that’s a really interesting theory and it actually makes if you don’t, then you don’t become the leader, you’re the ownership, unapologetically I do it because I can and a lot of sense if I think about waves and pendulums follower. So even though you may be inspired by this, there’s beauty in it, you know? swinging. I do think that we entered that space where you’re still drawing your own interpretation and evolving Alvaro: That makes so much sense. I never really things felt over the top. I mean, it maybe could even be it, that’s where you make it your own. You can’t be afraid thought about it before, but this idea of movement tied to having an over-the-top President, and now it’s to do that. as letting go, as an energy going outwards as opposed like, we just need to scale it back, we need to like... Alvaro: Well from the outside it’s definitely seems like to coming inwards, and then I consider all of that June: Calm down. you’re always having an internal conversation... possibility, what that energy looks like... That actually Alvaro: Calm down [both laugh]. I love that because June: [laughs] God, how do you know these things?! kind of really blows my mind. I’m always thinking about what the future is and now I’m like, “What would the other June say?” Yeah. June: I always tell people when they feel like, “Oh I maybe is that moment. Alasdair + Francis CURATED BY JOSH

Alasdair McLellan: Hey Francis. at the mine. So there were a lot of people who just didn’t 80s, move to London and go to drama school. Francis Lee: Hey Alasdair. have anything. But speaking to the teachers at the time, Alasdair: Is there anything we need to look out for Alasdair: How’re you? they didn’t really encourage. So it’s funny you say that, or should we not mention it? [laughs] Francis: I’m alright, I’m strangely nervous [laughs]. because it’s exactly the same reason I left. I was quite Francis: Alasdair, like honestly [laughs], I worked as Alasdair: Oh really? Why’s that? happy in Doncaster, I liked my friends, but I knew I was an actor for twenty years pretty much. Francis: It is a bit weird doing a phone call with gay and I knew that I couldn’t stay there if I wanted any Alasdair: Wow. someone you haven’t met [laughs]. I guess I have a sense kind of normal life. Even though a lot of people go, “Oh Francis: Sporadically. But my god, I was not good and of you through your work, even though we’ve never met your friends are homophobic,” I genuinely don’t think my career was basically... because in those shows like or spoken, and because I’m a huge fan of yours. they were, I think it just ends up being a kind of peer Casualty and Heartbeat and Emmerdale, you can go back Alasdair: Oh thank you, that’s very kind. pressure situation where everyone goes, “Ooh they’re every two years and play someone completely different. Francis: And I’ve stalked you for many years [both queer,” or whatever. You see what I mean? People just So I racked up four or five episodes of Heartbeat, Casualty laugh]. But I’ll be fine. didn’t want to engage in that sort of conversation, so I and Midsomer Murders, [laughs] all those kind of things, Alasdair: [laughs] Well there’s nothing to be scared of, thought I had to leave really, because it was going to but all the time being super uncomfortable in front of honestly. I didn’t realise you’d stalked me, that’s funny. be no good. I remember thinking, “Well, what would I the camera. I could never play the game, always argued Francis: Not physically [laughs]. like to do?” I wanted to do music but that just seemed with directors, and I guess what really pushed me on, Alasdair: No, I got that, just the photographs I too impossible a dream to even consider, so I remember was that I was a very, very obsessive stills photographer. presume. Did you grow up in Yorkshire as well? You’re a taking some pictures for my GCSE art and my English I had a knackered fixed lens 35mm camera and I took bit more northern than me because I’m South Yorkshire. teacher said, “Oh you’re quite good at this, you should it everywhere with me and photographed everything My friend, who’s a writer from Manchester, said, “Oh perhaps pursue that,” and it seemed like a much more I saw. I loved looking at life through a lens, I liked that well you’re almost from Nottinghamshire.” [laughs] So viable option. I thought, “Well I could always just take detachment and that interaction I could have through she was having a bit of a dig there, I said, “I think you’ll pictures of my mates,” I could actually physically do that. the lens with whatever it was I was photographing. That find that it’s actually more north than Manchester when So I completely agree with you. I had to get out because was the thing that, in a sense, I loved the most really, you look at the map.” But anyway, let’s not get into that. I was gay and I thought that there wasn’t any point being and was what pushed me forward to feeling confident to Did you grow up in Ilkley, or around there? gay in Doncaster. go, “Actually, I’d like to work with the moving image.” Francis: No, I wish I grew up in Ilkley [laughs], they Francis: I think it’s really fascinating because, like Alasdair: I’m similar. I got a camera when I was have a really nice supermarket there. I grew up on the you, I wasn’t really encouraged in anything. Like you, thirteen and I remember I’d invite friends over for a outskirts of Halifax. I was a really good runner but nobody showed any party, or go to their house for a party, and I’d take photos Alasdair: Oh ok, I’ve never been to Halifax. interest... of people on the night. Then I’d get the film developed Francis: Oh Alasdair, go immediately. The Guardian Alasdair: Because it’s not football [laughs]. We did at the local chemist or whatever and it kind of made me called it the Hoxton of the North, but I’m not quite rugby once, we did rounders when a teacher was sick popular at school. But even at that time I’d also take sure why. and we had to join the girls, and that was it. We’d pictures of the landscapes around the area, and I’ve still Alasdair: Yeah, I can’t imagine that! Why’s that, play football the whole time. But the thing is, I don’t got all the negatives now. I’ve got pictures of the same because they’ve got trendy haircuts there or something? know about you Francis, even though my GCSE results views from 1987 through to now. But it never appeared Francis: No, I think one craft brewery pub opened. were terrible and all that, I learnt so much from that to me that it was art or anything like that, it was never Alasdair: Ah OK [laughs]. experience. It’s probably shaped me more than anything contrived in a sense that one day I’ll be a photographer, Francis: So I was born in the late 60s and grew up in in some ways. If I wanted to do something academic, I just enjoyed doing it. I went to Nottingham to study the 70s and 80s on the outskirts of Halifax. Super rural – it might not have been the best place to start, if you photography, but going back to the GCSEs, when I was well it felt very rural at the time – I’m not so sure now if weren’t interested in science or maths there was no DJing, how I got into photography was by looking at the it would. But yeah, right up on the Pennine hills above a system in place unless you knuckled down and did it record sleeves and I’d think, “Who the took that photo little village. Very isolated. I spent most of my formative yourself. So although school didn’t help me in a practical on the cover? Maybe I could do that.” I kind of liked years there, in kind of pretty much isolation, I’d say. It’s way, because I went into something creative, it gave me the idea of graphic design, but I remember having a really funny, I was thinking about this the other day so much experience, it was like a kitchen sink drama. conversation with my teacher and them saying that any and, there wasn’t really any expectation, I didn’t go to I liked being there and had lots of friends – whenever I jobs in graphic design are in London and not for you, a very good school at all. It was a comprehensive but it think about casting, I think if they look like my friends. you’d just be designing pamphlets for local, I dunno was an old secondary-modern, and a lot of the teachers Francis: For me, I had a slightly different experience, [laughs], butchers or something. They never saw that you were still from that system. So there wasn’t an ambition I had some friends but not loads. I didn’t feel like could actually move to London. for people, particularly to do with anything creative, I fit in and I spent the majority of my childhood and Francis: [laughs] I’d love to see your pamphlet for the there was no blueprint for that. I was thinking about adolescence on my own. On the moors and in the woods, butchers. what it was that propelled me to leave. I think it was a very nature-based. Alasdair: Exactly [laughs]. I remember for my art final sense that I knew I was queer, I knew that in the 80s Alasdair: You feel that in your film [God’s Own Country] project I did the Pet Shop Boys Behaviour album, doing a in that environment that wasn’t going to be great, and a lot. photo and art direction for a 7” single and 12” album. So I knew that I wanted to pursue something creative. So I Francis: I don’t see this as a negative thing, but I’ve I was a bit torn between them but like I said, the option left Yorkshire when I was twenty and moved to London. always been a lonely person and have dealt with that of graphic design did seem a bit unrealistic, so I stuck How about you? loneliness. I’m quite introspective and an introvert and to photography, like you, as a way into something. Like Alasdair: I’m a bit later than you and had GCSEs I take a lot of comfort from that now. But I think I I said, the first time I ever had something positive said and all that, so that was the early 90s. But I remember worked my arse off at school because it was the only by a teacher ever is when my English teacher said that thinking, in the final year of your GCSEs you do a work route I could see out, through getting some O-levels. So I should do photography, so that’s kind of why I ended placement, and I was thinking, “I’d really like to go to I worked super, super hard and although they weren’t up doing it. I went to Nottingham to study photography a recording studio,” I was really into house music back great results, I think I got five O-levels. and then moved to London eventually, I guess at the then. I strangely used to DJ when I was like fourteen, Alasdair: That’s quite a lot, it’s more than me [both age of 22. fifteen, sixteen. Me and my mates started this sort of laugh]. Well mine were GCSE so I think I got three Francis: Were you moving to London to find work youth club in the village and one of our mate’s dads ended above C, so that’s the equivalent of an O-level. or were you going on to do more studies or something? up seeing us play and gave us a sort of residency – this Francis: Impressive [laughs]. So that was the thing Alasdair: No, I moved to London to try and be sounds a lot more impressive than it was [Francis laughs] that kept me going, the idea of leaving, of what my life a photographer. That’s what I wanted to do really. – in this bar in town. And the stuff they’d say to me was would be like once I’d escaped. Like you, I think it made Francis: And how did you find that experience like, “Oh well you’re never gonna do that [professionally], me resourceful and driven, probably. Coupled with the of moving from this village outside Doncaster..? why are you even thinking you’ll be able to do something idea of being able to feel like I’d be OK to go out on my Alasdair: Well it was a gradual step because obviously like that?” I remember these conversations with teachers own, as it were, and feel the fear, was the thing that Nottingham was a bit more exciting than Doncaster and they’d just be like, “That’s never gonna happen.” It really propelled me out of it. I knew that I always wanted [both laugh]. was almost like ‘you’re dreaming too big’. I was a good to write and direct, but again, I had not a fucking clue Francis: Alasdair, do you know what they used to say runner at school but because it wasn’t football it was how to do that. And I’d seen nobody do that at all, it felt about Nottingham? like, “Ah well, we’re not gonna encourage you.” [laughs] like a million miles away. But I did know the route to Alasdair: What, the fact that it’s one male to every Maybe running was far too middle-class, the school was become an actor, and I had seen people from working- eight girls, isn’t it? in an old mining village and the pit had closed the year class backgrounds do that, so I went to drama school, Francis: Well in the era of Saturday Night and Sunday before. When I joined in ‘86 it was like five little villages and that was my escape. Always knowing that I probably Morning, you know those lions outside the town hall in going to this comprehensive school in this one area, and wasn’t very good at it and that I probably shouldn’t really Nottingham? all the kids’ dads had lost their jobs because they worked be doing it. But it was a good means to finally, in the late Alasdair: Yeah, Old Market Square. REVELATIONS

Francis: They used to say that if a virgin ever walked did you draw a lot from your own experience? same fears and vulnerabilities. And again, fighting tooth past those lions in Nottingham they would roar [both It seems like such a personal piece. I’m not saying it and nail for what I wanted and how I wanted it to be and laugh]. was a complete biopic [Francis laughs], but it did feel all of that. I think coming back I was relaxed because I Alasdair: I’ve never heard that. extremely personal. was more comfortable with myself, personally. I was in a Francis: So there you go. Francis: I only write things that are very personal. relationship I really loved and was super happy to come Alasdair: We used to meet at those lions before going Like this new film I just made about a 19th-century back with my boyfriend and all of that. I think there’s into town, I never heard them roar, obviously [laughs]. woman fossil hunter [Ammonite]. Sometimes it might not an honesty about who I am now that makes me more So how come you’re now living back in Yorkshire? feel like it’s about me, but everything I write is exploring comfortable in Yorkshire. Francis: When I moved to London, it was a very me, I guess, and relationships. I’m very obsessed with Alasdair: A lot of people you meet don’t know who strange experience because this life that I’d imagined deep human relationships and figuring out how they they are, but then sometimes that changes when they for myself didn’t really materialise because obviously work. So God’s Own Country, you’re quite right, it wasn’t find out what they are good at. Sometimes I think about I was still me. I felt like I didn’t fit in there, I felt like autobiographical at all [laughs], but it was me exploring people who never actually found what they wanted to my sense of humour or the way I saw the world, or the what it felt like to be in a relationship and exploring do, and who they wanted to be, and I find it one of the way I spoke – not what I said but the way I said it – those dynamics, and a lot of those things were very saddest things. So I wondered if that experience moving didn’t quite fit in. So I felt quite alienated from London. personal to me. But then in writing, what happens often back to Yorkshire coincided with finding this skill Then I remember coming back, the first Christmas is that you start in that way and then in some ways the and talent. holidays after moving down there in September, and characters take different journeys to what you do, and Francis: I think I’m still super new to making films, feeling like I didn’t fit in up here anymore. My accent you have to allow them to do that sometimes. I can’t I’ve only made two feature films, I only madeGod’s Own had changed, I’d seen something of the world, I’d had watch it anymore. Country three years ago and shot this second film last my first boyfriend. Stuff had changed for me. So I felt Alasdair: Sure, it’s the same with me. Half the time year, it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster. But I think one of like I was a total interloper everywhere and I’d lost this I can’t look at my pictures because I’m sure I’ll find the things being in Yorkshire gives me that I struggle sense of home. But, the thing that always stayed with me something wrong with them. I was imagining that you with a bit in London, is that in Yorkshire nobody cares massively about Yorkshire, were the hills, the landscape, had an experience with a Pot Noodle when you were what I do. which I obsessed about. Every time I came home I’d fifteen or something like that [Francis laughs]. Alasdair: Yeah, I have that conversation all the time. get some pebbles or a bit of dirt, put it in my pocket Francis: I think I did used to take Pot Noodles into Francis: I go to a party up here and nobody mentions and take it back to London with me. It just felt like school in the fifth year because you had access to a work for me. Nobody. this was me, it’d formed me and made me the person I kettle, so everyone lived on those. Alasdair: I think the only time my friends from was. I’d always hoped that I would come back, that I’d Alasdair: The chicken and mushroom ones are still Yorkshire have been impressed is when I photographed settle here and have a life here. So when I wrote God’s delicious [both laugh]. I got the impression that there David Beckham [Francis laughs]. They couldn’t care less Own Country and finally got the money to make it, I was something very personal in there, in a similar about most things I do, even some huge American stars, wanted to make it very close to where my dad lives, he’s a way to how I sometimes approach photoshoots. I do they’re just like... farmer. So I negotiated with my then-boyfriend that we’d documentary projects but sometimes you just want to Francis: “Oh, but you shot David Beckham.” [laughs] move to Yorkshire to make the film. So I moved back to create a world yourself. Documentary photography is I went to my dad’s last week, I go most days, but I was Yorkshire and I live now very rurally again in a wooden hard, sometimes you just don’t find the subject, and over there and chatting and he asked what I was doing hut on the side of a hill. sometimes a documentary on TV might do a better job this weekend, and I said, “Oh, Kate’s coming to visit, Alasdair: Sounds perfect. of telling that story than a series of photos. So creating a they’re coming on their way down from Scotland.” And Francis: I made the film, edited it here and then world, even if it’s dismissed because it’s a fashion image he was like, “Kate?” I was like, “Yeah, you know, Kate just stayed really. It felt like I’d finally made peace with that someone facilitates. Luckily there are magazines Winslet who’s in the movie.” He was like, “Oh right, everything I felt uncomfortable with growing up here, or that offer a lot of freedom. People dismiss it, but in some fine,” then proceeded to tell me about the man cutting not fitting in, I felt a lot closer to my family, a lot more ways you’re creating something that is your own, you’re his hay [Alasdair laughs]. Whereas if I’m in London and honest about who I am. It felt like a total sense of peace. making that person, that character, in a similar way to go to a party, instantly the only topic of conversation In London, I lived in a council flat in southeast London, how you make a film. is work and stuff around work and people’s opinions so there wasn’t a lot of breathing space. So moving up Francis: You’re writing your stories. around your work and your engagement with work. here, it just felt very expansive again. But again, I think Alasdair: Kind of, yeah. That’s how I approach it Here, there’s none. moving back has thrown up lots of issues again around in a way. Out of interest, do you think that when you Alasdair: Believe me, I find it very funny. But then isolation and loneliness and what have you, but I feel returned to Yorkshire older and happier, do you think you don’t really need to talk about it because nobody is like I can deal with those a lot better now. that’s because you finally found what you wanted to be interested [laughs]. Alasdair: Yes, of course. Photographers and directors doing? Like a realisation that you’re doing something Francis: No, they’re not [laughs]. I remember when are similiar-ish in terms of them both being sort of you’re actually really good at? we first moved here and I was at the top of the road lonely. And a lot of creative people do tend to be quite Francis: Well I didn’t know I was good at it. I couldn’t waiting for a lift to work when I was prepping God’s Own introspective and find it hard to be themselves because afford to go to film school or anything or do any courses Country. It was the first time I’d met Dave the postman maybe they aren’t that confident and they are a bit of a on writing or directing. I had this job in a junkyard in and he said to me, “Oh, which one are you?” I went, “I’m loner in a lot of ways as well. London and I’d given up acting because that was just Francis,” so he goes, “Oh right, so you’re the filmmaker,” Francis: I think you’re right. It was my ex-boyfriend ridiculous, so I’d saved up enough money to make a and I was like, “Oh yeah, I am.” He said, “My little who first told me about your work and I looked at it and couple of short films that I self-financed. They were girl wants to be an actress, she’d be fantastic in your there was such a sense of connection in those images, a fine but they didn’t set the world on fire. So when I film.” And I said, “Oh Dave, I don’t really make connection with the subject and interior lives as much as wrote God’s Own Country – and I’d never written anything films about little girls,” and he goes, “No, I’ve ‘eard the image. There was something I felt very drawn to and before in terms of a long-form script – and came to shoot who you make films about,” [both laugh] and that’s kind very akin with the way I wanted to, and now do, make it, I didn’t have a clue if it was going to be good, bad, of the engagement. film. It’s all about interior life. I think that’s what makes indifferent. I just knew what I wanted to say and how Alasdair: That’s funny, I do miss that sort of humour. those images so powerful. I wanted to say it. I think I was 47 when I made it, so You wouldn’t get someone saying it like that in London. Alasdair: I draw a lot of inspiration from memories that life experience had really taught me to stick up for Maybe she’s really good, maybe you missed a trick there. and... There are so many photographers around and you what you want, to battle on and understand that the Francis: Maybe I did [laughs]. I do realise that I’m constantly have to think about how you can make it only thing I had to sell was this singular vision. I didn’t going to have to spend much more time down in London more and more your own work almost. It’s one camera, really have anything else. So I fought tooth and nail to now and everything that comes with, and I am kind of so people’s pictures tend to look similar, so you sort of make the film the way I wanted to make it. The only girding my loins a bit for that shift again to what that’s think that the one thing you can always draw on that thing that kept me going was thinking, “If I can stand going to be like. will always fundamentally be your own is your own next to this film, and if I can say that this is the film Alasdair: I love London a lot... but I know what you experience. Obviously not with every piece of work, but I wanted to make, then that is my success.” Anything mean, it can be a bit all-consuming and can just end up I do try to draw from that, where I grew up and what I’ve else beyond that is immaterial. I guess my naivety and being about work. But yeah, I guess you’ll have to come been into. That’s how you make something your vision. what have you just kept me going. I don’t think any of us back to London more [laughs], but you can keep your Francis: I totally agree. Like a filmmaker, the only knew what the reception was going to be like until we place there. thing you have is your singular voice, your viewpoint. went and premiered the film at Sundance. Then when Francis: I don’t know Alasdair, I think this hut’s I think that’s what attracts us to good work, and that’s the reception started to be incredibly positive, I know gonna fall to bits, there are massive gaps in all the what makes work differentiate between artists, that I started to relax, and I think [co-stars] Alec [Secareanu] windows now and the weatherboard is all rotted outside. singular vision or viewpoint. and Josh both did too. I don’t know if that fear goes [laughs] I’m not sure how many more Yorkshire winters Alasdair: When you were writing God’s Own Country, away. On the film I’ve just finished this year, I have the this will get through.