Tuesday Volume 507 9 March 2010 No. 53

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 9 March 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 133 9 MARCH 2010 134

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local House of Commons Government (Mr. John Denham): I asked an expert taskforce, chaired by Sir Steve Bullock, mayor of Lewisham, and Sir Richard Leese, leader of Manchester city council, Tuesday 9 March 2010 to look at how best to achieve efficiency savings and protect front-line services. Their report “Putting the Frontline First: Meeting the local government challenge” The House met at half-past Two o’clock was published on 1 March. It sets out 10 decisive steps that councils can take to achieve efficiency while delivering PRAYERS high-quality local services. Local people will rightly be intolerant of any council if they are told that front-line services like care provision, libraries or youth services [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] will be cut because it has failed to carry through all the recommendations made in our experts’ taskforce report.

Mr. Hendrick: Will my right hon. Friend comment on Oral Answers to Questions the disgraceful situation at the now Conservative-led Lancashire county council? It has received a 5.1 per cent. increase in Government grant but has cut the budget by 3 per cent., with the likelihood that 200 to COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 300 jobs will now be lost. The council is also failing to support the staff at the National Football museum who need an agreement to be reached between Lancashire The Secretary of State was asked— county council and Manchester city council so that the museum can remain at Preston and in Manchester Planning Appeals as well.

1. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Under Mr. Denham: First, may I pay tribute to my hon. what exceptional circumstances planning inspectors may Friend’s sterling efforts to support the football museum consider representations on planning appeals made after and to retain it for his constituency? He makes an the deadline for submissions has passed. [320996] important wider point, because some local authorities are trying to suggest that the cuts that they are making The Minister for Housing (John Healey): Information to front-line services in some way reflect cuts in central can be accepted after the deadline when there has been Government finance or the wider economic circumstances. a material change in circumstances or when there are As he has rightly highlighted, English local authorities demonstrably good reasons for the deadline to have received, on average, a 4 per cent. cash increase for the been missed. coming year, and the cuts that are being made reflect the decisions of Tory and Liberal local authorities to Mr. Robertson: I am grateful to the Minister for that make them at a local level. response and for his earlier telephone call to my office. He will be aware that, in a planning appeal in Innsworth in my constituency, although the public inquiry date Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): has passed and the inquiry has finished, a change of Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating details has been submitted by the developer. A rather Hammersmith and Fulham council on delivering a confusing letter from the Secretary of State’s office council tax cut for the fourth year in a row while purports to reopen the inquiry, but surely that cannot preserving its four-star quality rating for services? Will be an open and transparent way of dealing with planning he also use this occasion to apologise to the leader of applications. Will the Minister look into this issue further? the council for saying that the leader had allegedly said of council tenants, “These people are hard to shift”? John Healey: The material change of circumstances That is totally and utterly untrue, and it is time that the in that case was the offer from the developer, after the right hon. Gentleman apologised for that mis-statement. inquiry, to increase the proportion of affordable housing in the proposals—something that I would have assumed Mr. Denham: I prefer the records of the eight Labour that the hon. Gentleman welcomes. Clearly, it would London local authorities that have frozen council tax have been wrong if the Secretary of State had not then while protecting front-line services. He will be aware of sought the views of the parties at the inquiry to that the impact of local decisions to raise charges for elderly change in the proposals. My right hon. Friend the people and of housing strategies that seem to be designed Secretary of State has acted openly and done the right to deny security of tenure to people who have long thing in seeking those views. He is currently considering enjoyed secure local housing. I do not share his assessment the case carefully. of his local authority’s record—indeed, far from it; I think it is a warning that should be broadcast to tenants Efficiency Savings up and down the country, and I will do my very best to make sure that it is. 2. Mr. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): What guidance he has issued to local authorities on achieving Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Ryanair efficiency savings without reducing front-line services. was recently voted the least family- friendly company in [320997] the country. In the light of that, what is my right hon. 135 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 136

Friend’s view of local authorities that seek to make Clearly, spending plans will have to be set out, but the efficiency savings by instituting two-tier services, with a timing is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor no-frills basic? of the Exchequer.

Mr. Denham: I worry greatly about councils that are Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Given proposing what they call a budget-airline or Ryanair the levels of support that Birmingham city council has approach to local government, with services stripped had from the Government over the past decade, why down to the most basic level. The only people who does my right hon. Friend feel that it has got itself into enjoy decent services are those who can afford to pay such a financial mess, to the extent that thousands of for them twice—once through the council tax, and once jobs are threatened and services to the public are being through charges. For example, I was told the other day put at risk? that Wolverhampton council has made it part of its standing orders that every service should be charged at Mr. Denham: I can understand the concern of my a full-cost recovery rate, unless specifically authorised hon. Friend and other Birmingham Members of otherwise by a cabinet member. Parliament. It is true that Birmingham has not received I think that that approach will leave large numbers of the highest rating, shall we say, from the Audit Commission, people on middle incomes unable to enjoy decent council for the quality of its financial management. The record services. It is a shame that it is being championed by the shows that it has been given resources by the Government Opposition. for tackling worklessness, but that it has failed to devote them to tackling that problem. It is a shame that Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): Birmingham’s Conservative-Liberal Democrat council The Secretary of State seems very keen to talk about is saying that front-line services will have to go, when this year’s Budget settlement, but less keen to talk about issues about how the council manages its resources Government grants looking ahead. What guidance has clearly need to be addressed closer to home. he received from the Treasury about the scale of future cuts that councils will need to make? Does he really Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Instead of believe that efficiencies alone will be able to halve the shamelessly scaremongering, it would have been nice if deficit? the Secretary of State had acknowledged that local government has already had considerable success in Mr. Denham: I certainly believe that the budget reduction delivering efficiency savings. Can he understand why programme set out by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor councils feel so furious about being instructed to meet of the Exchequer in the pre-Budget report is a credible the £250 million shortfall in the Prime Minister’s latest one. It can be delivered in local government without commitment to personal care? The Government define damaging front-line services, provided that the hard a new burden as decisions are taken to deliver efficiencies. My Department “any new policy or initiative which increases the cost of providing set out in the PBR where we expect savings to be made local authority services.” through operational efficiency and through savings on Will he explain which part of that £250 million is not particular local government services. That can be done covered by that doctrine? so that members of the public see their services protected and improved where they use them. Mr. Denham: It is a shame that the hon. Lady has not Julia Goldsworthy: The problem is that the Institute welcomed the fact that the Prime Minister’s proposals for Fiscal Studies thinks that that is simply not possible, for free care at home for those with the highest needs and that deep cuts will follow in years ahead. Given that involve the biggest single transfer of resources from the no credible detail is forthcoming from either the NHS to local government since the NHS was founded Government or those on the Conservative Front Bench, in 1948. It is a massive vote of confidence in the ability should the right hon. Gentleman not be doing the of local government to deliver the policy. I believe that responsible thing and advising councils to prepare for the savings that local government is being asked to the worst-case scenario pointed out by the IFS—that is, make can be achieved. As she herself has said, local reductions of up 23 per cent. over four years from 2011? government has proved its ability to make efficiency savings and to plough them into other front-line services. Mr. Denham: The hon. Lady is wrong on both counts. In reply to an earlier question, I said that we have Mrs. Spelman: We all want to see help for those who published a report from two respected local government most need it. The question is where the money is leaders on precisely the measures that local government coming from. The Government must be living in cloud should be planning to take now to make the most cuckoo land if they believe that the £250 million bill for efficient use of the available resources. As the House changes in personal care does not fall under the definition knows, however, the reality is that there has not yet been of an unfunded burden. Is it not the case that the a comprehensive spending review for the next three-year efficiency savings earmarked for that policy will not settlement because we have been through a year of the materialise until 2012-13, yet the policy comes into most extraordinary economic change. The policies that force this year? Can the Minister explain to the House we have implemented have seen the Government, the where the shortfall will be found, and whether the figure country and local government through the crisis, because of £250 million is capped? If not, is it not the case that we rejected the calls from the Opposition to cut our as well as being unfunded, the policy is uncosted? spending last year. It would have been irresponsible to try to project exact levels of spending for four years Mr. Speaker: Order. There were three questions, but from today, given the uncertainties of the past year. one answer from the Secretary of State will suffice. 137 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 138

Mr. Denham: In which case, Mr. Speaker, I will economic downturn. The Opposition have a hands-off, respond to the point that we all want to do something “don’t care” attitude to regeneration and economic to help. I recall that when cross-party talks were taking development. place in an attempt to establish a consensus on social care, it was the Conservative party which broke out of Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): I know those in order to launch a cheap-shot poster campaign, that my right hon. Friend is well aware that the public rather than try to address the serious issues that concern railway in the centre of Sheffield has been transformed elderly people in this country. by the actions of the then Labour-controlled city council and Yorkshire Forward working together. She is probably Regional Regeneration also aware that at a Regional Select Committee hearing recently, every employers body that came to give evidence praised the actions of Yorkshire Forward in helping its 3. Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): What members in the recession. For both those reasons, would recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of it not be folly to get rid of Yorkshire Forward and other Government support for local authority regeneration RDAs, particularly at this time of economic difficulty? initiatives delivered regionally. [320998] Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, The Minister for Regional Economic Development and and as the Minister for Yorkshire and the Humber I Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): An independent know also how much Yorkshire Forward is valued in report by PricewaterhouseCoopers published in March terms of the work that it has done. At this point, even 2009 established that, on average, every £1 of regional talking about removing that help sends completely the development agency spend, much of which is in partnership wrong message to businesses, because we can put together with local authorities, will add on average £4.50 of assistance to help people through into the recovery. For value to their region. The PWC report found that in the the Opposition to talk about dismantling that help is a Northwest regional development agency area, 41,000 jobs very bad approach. were created or safeguarded, 8,000 businesses were assisted and 48,000 people were helped with training. House Building Projects Tony Lloyd: Those figures are impressive. Does it not 4. Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): What account his beggar belief that there are those who cannot make up Department takes of the effects on local employment their mind what they should do with regional development in the construction industry in its decisions on the agencies, which have been such a great success in allocation of funding for house building projects. regenerating and creating employment in the north-west of England? [320999] 9. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): What Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend is right. As somebody account his Department takes of the effects on local who meets a number of businesses, I know that they are employment in the construction industry in its decisions horrified by the idea that any Government or potential on the allocation of funding for house building projects. Government would talk about abolishing the regional [321004] development agencies. That is the view not only of businesses, but of business organisations such as the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Engineering Employers Federation, the CBI and the Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): In chambers of commerce. However, I notice that the hon. September 2009 we announced that all new housing Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) and the right hon. projects funded with public investment will be required and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) have to offer apprenticeships and local labour opportunities. now written down their policy, in a vague attempt to see The aim of that policy is to increase opportunities for if it will last longer than one day. young and unemployed people who have been particularly hard hit in the current economic climate. Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, but we want to hear about Government policy. Paul Rowen: I understand that, but I am sure that the Minister is aware that there are 750,000 empty homes, Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Last Friday’s and that more than 200,000 construction workers are edition of Property Week condemned the Government’s chasing 300 jobs. Does he not accept, therefore, that the track record on regeneration by pointing out that the Government ought to do more to bring empty homes pathfinder scheme has been responsible for the demolition back into use? of more than 16,000 homes, yet has created only 3,700 new homes, with a net loss of 12,000 homes. In short, the Mr. Austin: It is precisely because we want to do more scheme has cost £2.2 billion and knocked down four in the housing industry that we have announced the times as many homes as it created. Does the Minister £1.5 billion housing pledge to increase the number of regard that as a success? homes being developed and to provide jobs in construction.

Ms Winterton: As I understand it, for the scheme to Greg Mulholland: The Minister completely failed to which the hon. Lady refers, the expenditure so far has answer the previous question. In Otley, in my constituency, been on acquiring the land. It will continue. The we lost Lotus Construction last year, with the loss of Government are looking at ways in which we can intervene 80 jobs—an experience common to many constituencies. in the economy at local, regional and national level Considering that on average it costs £10,000 to bring an to address the problems that have arisen during the existing property back into use, compared with £100,000 139 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 140 for a new social house, how can the Minister possibly not have noticed this—we have just been through the say that the Government are doing enough to bring most extraordinary recession that this country and the homes back into use? world have ever seen. That is why we have invested £1.5 billion this year and next to build 20,000 new Mr. Austin: We are investing money in improving affordable homes—investment opposed by the Opposition. existing properties, as well as in building new ones. This Building work has started on more than 80 kickstart Government’s record in supporting the construction projects; the first homes in more than a decade are industry through the downturn has been absolutely being built under the local authority new build scheme; first-class. This has been the first recession in which a and residents in those areas—the families who are desperate Government have invested record amounts to keep the to get a home—as well as construction workers and economy moving, protect jobs in construction and provide building companies, too, want to know why the Opposition the skills that the industry will need in the future. want to cut that spending this year and next and put all those jobs at risk. Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): The Government have given Milton Keynes council Unitary Authorities (Essex) funding to appoint an officer to start implementing the empty dwelling management order, because the Liberal 5. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): If he will arrange Democrat-controlled council has done absolutely nothing for public consultation to take place in Essex on the on it for the past three years, despite the fact that I went subject of establishing unitary authorities. [321000] to it with lists of empty properties that were prime candidates for the order. Does the Minister agree, however, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that house building is required to meet housing need, Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): and that empty homes, although important, are a flea The statutory process for establishing unitary authorities bite compared with the breadth of housing need in requires a council to make a unitary proposal in response places such as Milton Keynes? to an invitation from the Secretary of State, and does not provide for any public consultation in advance of Mr. Austin: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about such an invitation. the need to build more homes, and that is why we are investing record amounts in the house building industry. She is also absolutely right also about empty homes, Bob Russell: I invite the Minister to extend that and I congratulate her on her work in Milton Keynes to invitation to Colchester borough council without further ensure that they are brought back into use. ado, because Essex county council is an appalling local authority which should be abolished. May I advise her Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): that, as I told one of her colleagues last year, surveys in Will my hon. Friend welcome the programme, which Colchester show that 75 per cent. of the population will create many jobs, to bring 5,300 socially rented wish to break away from Tory-controlled county hall homes in my constituency up to and beyond the because, as the only local authority in Essex not run by Government’s decent homes standard, with new kitchens the Conservatives, my local council suffers political and bathrooms, rewiring, new boilers—[Interruption.]— discrimination from the Conservatives at county hall? windows and doors, roofing, chimney repairs, repointing and insulation works? Is not that a good record for a Barbara Follett: As Minister for the East of England, Labour Government and a Labour council? I understand exactly what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I would advise him to get Colchester council to Mr. Austin: That is a very good record, and the request the Secretary of State to make such an invitation. Opposition were interjecting because they do not value I know that the hon. Gentleman has met the Minister that investment in improving homes for ordinary people. for Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination I welcome what my right hon. Friend says. Once again about this, and I understand his concerns well. he has demonstrated the faultless judgment that he has exercised over a lifetime’s public service. Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to make much sharper progress down the Order Paper from now on. I call Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con): This is the Mr. Jim Cunningham. fourth Housing Minister whom I have faced over the Dispatch Box, but I congratulate him on having, this Local Authorities (Recession) weekend, outlasted at least his immediate predecessor, the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Margaret 6. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): Beckett). What recent representations he has had from local Today, the Library confirmed that house building has authorities on the effects on them of the recent recession. fallen to its lowest level, excluding the war years, since [321001] 1924, when Ramsay MacDonald became Prime Minister. Is that damning indictment of Labour housing policy a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for result of the record nine different Housing Ministers, or Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): of Labour’s obstinate refusal to work alongside local My Department is in regular dialogue with local authorities people to build more homes? about the impact of the current economic climate and the commendable measures that most councils are taking Mr. Austin: What complete and utter nonsense. The to ameliorate this. Their efforts have been helped by answer is neither of those reasons. The level has fallen above-inflation funding increases from central Government to its lowest level because—the hon. Gentleman may to local authorities overall. 141 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 142

Mr. Cunningham: I will be very quick, Mr. Speaker. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that very Can the Minister tell me what the financial impact will serious allegation warrants investigation, and if so, will be on social cohesion? he undertake it? If he disagrees, will he now say so on the record and invite his fellow Secretary of State— Barbara Follett: Fortunately, the impact on social cohesion has been less than it was in previous recessions Mr. Speaker: Order. The question is of course about in the previous century. In fact, certain statistics such as Norfolk only, and I know that the Secretary of State crime figures have fallen by 8 per cent., whereas in the will factor that into his reply. previous recession they went up by 19 per cent. Mr. Denham: In which case, Mr. Speaker, I take your Unitary Authority (Norfolk) guidance and will not refer to my right hon. Friend’s blog. [Interruption.]

7. Chloe Smith (Norwich, North) (Con): For what Robert Neill: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. reasons he overruled the advice of his Department’s accounting officer in relation to the value for money of Mr. Speaker: Order. his proposals for unitary restructuring in Norfolk. [321002] Mr. Denham: However, it is a matter of record in a statement issued by my Department that there was no The Secretary of State for Communities and Local leak of correspondence. It was placed in the public Government (Mr. John Denham): Following the end of domain and provided to the National Audit Office in a the consultation on 19 January, Ministers gave careful perfectly proper way, and I believe it was also provided consideration to the boundary committee’s advice, the to a Member who had raised the topic in correspondence. representations we had received, and all other relevant information, including the advice from the permanent Mr. Speaker: Order. I simply point out to the hon. secretary. While expressing concern that our proposed Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) approach would impact adversely on the financial position that he ventilated his views very fully and forcefully, and of the public sector as compared with the alternative that points of order come after questions. options available to us, he highlighted the savings that would be achieved by the unitary Norfolk and unitary Gypsy and Traveller Sites Devon proposed by the boundary committee. We had previously been consistently advised that we 8. Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): What progress were not duty bound to choose the cheapest option. We has been made in providing security of tenure for noted that the unitary county option did not command Gypsies and Travellers on local authority sites. [321003] the support of any of the principal councils, including Norfolk county council and Devon county council, and we were reluctant to pursue recommendations that did The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for not meet the broad cross-section of support criteria. We Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): concluded that a unitary Exeter and a unitary Norwich I begin by paying to tribute to my hon. Friend for her which were locally supported was the best way forward chairing of the all-party group on Gypsy and Traveller for local people, creating councils far better placed to law reform. The Government remain committed to deliver jobs, growth and services. bringing security of tenure to local authority Gypsy and Traveller sites, which is a complex issue involving amendments to primary legislation that we must get Chloe Smith: In one way, at least, I am grateful for the right. Statutory instruments will be laid as soon as very long answer given by the Secretary of State, because parliamentary time is available. my further question is this: will he tell us why, in this matter, he has ignored the wishes of the public, only Julie Morgan: I am dismayed that Gypsies and Travellers 3 per cent. of whom want his wilful, capricious and as yet have no security of tenure, bearing in mind that cavalier proposal for a unitary Norwich? the Connors judgment in the European Court was six years ago and the Government’s proposals to change Mr. Denham: I note that three out of the four political the law using the Mobile Homes Act 1983 were more parties represented on Norwich city council favour the than two years ago. There has been intensive discussion unitary proposal, and all the parties represented on with Gypsies and Travellers and with support groups, Exeter city council support that proposal, so that is an and I wish to express my extreme dismay. What hope indication of support in key places. can the Government give Gypsies and Travellers who are living in uncertain situations and who had great Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Referring hopes of this Government? to the accounting officer’s letter to the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the Mr. Malik: I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), made frustration, and I know of her commitment to the this observation on his blog, which is named “Ben’s matter. I think she will fully understand my commitment Brain Bubbles”: to it, too. I recently became the first Minister to visit a “The selective leaking of internal correspondence has confirmed Gypsy and Traveller site. We are completely committed the suspicions long held in Exeter (and Norwich) that London-based to the issue. I know that she wants me to say that I civil servants have consistently been biased against Exeter and will consider the timing, but it would be disingenuous Norwich and have been firmly in the county camp.” of me to say that knowing that in practical terms, it 143 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 144 would be impossible to lay an instrument before Working Neighbourhoods Fund Parliament this side of a general election, so I can only apologise. 11. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): What recent estimate he has made of the proportion of the Non-Domestic Rates working neighbourhoods fund which has been allocated to local authorities. [321007] 10. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): How much on average was paid by a business in non- The Secretary of State for Communities and Local domestic rates in (a) 1997-98 and (b) the latest year for Government (Mr. John Denham): Since 2008, we have which figures are available. [321005] allocated over £1.5 billion of working neighbourhoods fund to help local authorities with high rates of worklessness The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for to support their communities. That has all been allocated Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): to local authorities. We do not hold figures for the average bill paid by an individual business for national non-domestic rates in Joan Walley: Of the £1.5 billion allocated, I thank the 1997-98 and in more recent years. However, for 1997-98, Secretary of State for the £27 million that has come to the figure derived from dividing the net rate yield from Stoke-on-Trent from the working neighbourhood funds. local authorities’rating lists by the number of hereditaments Will he join me in congratulating the jobs, enterprise on the local list as at 31 December of the previous year and training centre in Burslem, the YMCA and the is £6,796, and for 2008-09 the equivalent figure is £11,274. charity Groundwork on the difference they make to That reflects changes in the retail prices index and the helping the long-term unemployed to get back to work? NNDR tax base due to increased economic prosperity. Mr. Denham: I am delighted to praise the organisations Mr. Swayne: I thank the Minister for that well researched that my hon. Friend mentions. The JET centres use the reply. Fully a third of businesses that are eligible for working neighbourhoods fund and other sources of small business rate relief are not claiming it, according money, and the organisations she mentions all play a to the Government’s own figures. What will she do very valuable role. One of the aims of the working either to simplify the system or to make it automatic? neighbourhoods fund has been to allow local authorities to tailor what they do for workless people to the needs Barbara Follett: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman’s of local areas. In many areas, the sort of voluntary figures are out of date. Recent figures suggest that organisations she talks about are key to success. 92 per cent. of the relief is being claimed. Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): I understand Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): May I that no such funding came to Lancashire last year. Will ask the Minister to look yet again at how empty property the Secretary of State ensure that local authorities are tax works at the moment? I have a lot of constituents able to implement the working neighbourhood fund who have converted agricultural property into workshops, flexibly, so that they can aid projects to regenerate in line with Government policy, and now find it completely communities in rural areas such as the one I represent, impossible to get business tenants despite their best where we have seen firms, shops and local schools close, endeavours. They end up with a financial millstone or where there are sometimes no rural buses? around their neck for following Government policy. Will she look again at the operation of the tax? Mr. Denham: The working neighbourhoods fund has been targeted at those areas with the highest levels of Barbara Follett: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s worklessness and deprivation. That has been the right concern, but if the rateable value of such property is thing to do, but it is within the area-based grant, which less than £18,000, it should not attract empty property gives local authorities the maximum flexibility locally in rate relief—or should I have said that it should not tailoring what they do to local needs. Obviously, other attract tax? I will be happy to unscramble that answer Government initiatives—for example, to help high streets by meeting him privately. suffering from empty shops—have gone to a wider range of local authorities, including some in rural areas. Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I think the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) will Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): North East need that unscrambled. The hon. Lady’s boss, the Secretary Lincolnshire council was allocated more than £13 million of State, recently said that in his opinion, companies of working neighbourhood funding. However, to date, will be helped by his business rates revaluation, but the it has used just £1.5 million of that. Will my right hon. Government are killing community shops across London Friend tell me what checks are made on councils to see with a business rates revaluation that will raise business that they are actually using the money for the purpose rates by more than half a billion pounds over the next for which it is intended? I fear that some of my constituents few years. That will affect the shops that we all—particularly could have lost out because the council has just sat on elderly and low-income families—rely on: the newsagents, that money. the launderettes and the convenience stores. Why does the future of those London jobs, businesses and Mr. Denham: That is a very important issue, and I communities matter so little to the Secretary of State? understand that my hon. Friend is meeting my right hon. Friend the Minister for Regional Economic Barbara Follett: Once again, the figures are being Development and Co-ordination later this week to discuss exaggerated. Sixty per cent. of businesses will not see it. There really is no excuse for local authorities not to any rise in their business rates. spend the money that they have been allocated to help 145 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 146 people through the recession and to get into work. businesses and do not require special licences. However, There is another crucial issue here. The Government things are changing and some authorities, particularly have rightly listened to local authorities that say, “Don’t in London, now require such businesses to have a ring-fence every penny and tell us exactly how to spend licence. it. Trust us.” When that trust breaks down, and when money is not used, there is a real problem, which I hope Mr. Steen: I suggest to the Minister that all local can be addressed very quickly. authorities should require special treatment licences but, although it is all well and good to have licences, House Building Targets what will she do to ensure that officials make regular visits to these massage parlours to identify and help 12. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What recent victims of human trafficking who are often found there representations he has received on his Department’s and need to be rescued? target to build 3 million houses by 2020; and if he will make a statement. [321008] Barbara Follett: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who has a long and honourable history of concern about The Minister for Housing (John Healey): The Department this subject. The problem is that most of this issue falls receives a large number of representations on house under the Home Office, and another small section of it building. I must tell the hon. Gentleman that almost all under the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, so of them argue that we should do more to build more however much I might like to encourage officials in homes in all parts of the country, including Lichfield. DCLG to pay regular visits to check such establishments, That is exactly what I have set out to do in my great nine I do not think that I could. months as Housing Minister.

Michael Fabricant: Oh good! Anyway, of the 3 million Home Information Packs homes, he will know that the Government project that 1 million will be built as affordable homes by 2020, but 14. James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend, East) the Home Builders Federation has said that the Government (Con): If he will make it his policy to suspend or will achieve less than half that number. Has it got that abolish home information packs. [321012] wrong?

John Healey: No, the HBF is reflecting the fact that, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for over the last 12 to 18 months, during the most serious Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): recession in this country for 60 years, private sector The answer is no. house building by the HBF’s members has fallen through the floor. At the same time, instead of stepping back, James Duddridge: It is unfortunate that the Minister we have increased the investment in building affordable has not taken a little more time to review the issue. If he homes and we will build more this year and next year had, he might have looked at Northern Ireland where than in any year since we came to government. Ministers introduced energy performance certificates without HIPs. Perhaps after he has done so, he might be Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Will my right able to take the opportunity to come back to the House hon. Friend look to ensure that authorities such as with a fuller answer. Chorley, which are sitting on section 106 money that is meant for social and affordable housing, spend that Mr. Austin: Despite the difficulties in the housing money and provide the homes that are much needed? market, HIPs are helping to speed up the process. A survey of 37,000 transactions—[Interruption.] Well, John Healey: For the first time, I have made available what happens is that every month, those guys—I am Government grants and backing, on a similar basis to sorry, I mean the Opposition—come along and ask housing associations, to all local councils that are willing these questions and I have to tell them that a survey of to build and want to meet the needs and aspirations that 37,000 transactions showed that when a HIP is available, local people have for new homes. That means that this exchanges were completed more quickly. I accept that year we have under way the largest council housing HIPs were criticised following their introduction in building programme for nearly two decades. I am really 2007, but we listened to those criticisms and have made disappointed that Chorley council is not playing a full major changes to improve the system, introducing the part in that programme and not doing more to meet the new property information questionnaire containing basic need for more homes in the area. information that buyers said that they wanted; improving the quality of searches; binding in the practice of using Massage Parlours insurance; and providing that HIPs must be available when marketing starts. 13. Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): If he will issue guidance to local authorities on the granting of Regional Regeneration licences for massage parlours. [321009]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 16. Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): (Lab): What his most recent assessment is of the effectiveness My Department has no plans to issue guidance to local of Government support for local authority regeneration authorities on the granting of licences to massage parlours, initiatives in the north-west; and if he will make a because in most areas they are treated as ordinary statement. [321014] 147 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 148

The Minister for Regional Economic Development and Topical Questions Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): Since its inception in 1999 the Northwest Regional Development Agency T1. [321021] Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) has consistently met or exceeded all targets set by the (Lab/Co-op): If he will make a statement on his Government. In addition, the Government have allocated departmental responsibilities. £480 million to local authorities in the north-west via the working neighbourhoods fund and the local enterprise The Secretary of State for Communities and Local growth initiative to enable them to tackle worklessness Government (Mr. John Denham): Much has been achieved and support enterprise in deprived areas. on antisocial behaviour, and the number of people who think that it is a problem in their neighbourhood has Mrs. Humble: A clear indication of the effectiveness fallen to the lowest level since records began. However, of the Government’s plans for regeneration in Blackpool there are still communities where such behaviour causes has been the substantial rise—in some instances, 40 per problems, and people need to feel confident that they, cent.—in the numbers of visitors to the town. Some with the police and local councils, can tackle the problem. have come to see the new St. John’s square, the Brilliance Last month, we began training up to 10,000 community project and the new promenade taking shape. Will the champions to join their neighbours, police and councils Minister continue, therefore, to support regeneration to take a stand against antisocial behaviour. projects in Blackpool and the regional development agency’s excellent work? Alun Michael: I am delighted to hear that my right hon. Friend is focusing on tackling antisocial behaviour. Ms Winterton: First, may I pay tribute to my hon. In view of the importance of local authorities working Friend for all her work on behalf of her constituents in with the police to drive down crime, will he encourage Blackpool? I was glancing through a document on the local authorities across England to follow the experience economic impact of the Northwest Regional Development in Cardiff, where a joint analysis, involving the NHS, of Agency and noticed that there is a Blackpool masterplan violent incidents has led to a reduction in violent incidents encompassing many of the issues she just mentioned. by more than 40 per cent. in terms of the numbers of She is right to say that we need action from the local people coming through the doors of accident and authority and regional development agency to bring emergency departments requiring treatment? about the kind of economic regeneration to which she referred. Mr. Denham: Yes, I will. I understand that lessons Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Will the from the Cardiff approach are being followed through Minister accept that county towns such as Macclesfield in Leicestershire and Tyne and Wear. More generally, could do with assistance from regeneration funds, the Total Place approach, which we are pioneering and particularly now when we are seeking to establish in which is looking at all public service spending, will Macclesfield a national silk centre? I hope to meet the encourage the health service, local authorities, the police chief executive of the Northwest Regional Development and others to work together much more closely to Agency shortly. Will the Minister give this project her tackle such problems in the future. support? T2. [321022] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) Ms Winterton: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman (LD): Given that school transport comes out of the will bring the merits of the silk centre to the attention of general local government funding formula, and not the the chief executive of the Northwest Regional Development education budget, and that it is being reviewed, will Agency. The hon. Gentleman is making exactly the sparsity be looked at carefully given that it has a huge same point I was making earlier: it is vital to have this impact now in scattered areas such as Northumberland? kind of strategic assessment of the economic needs of Potentially, that impact will be even greater when education all the region, and I hope that he will put his best efforts is compulsory up to 18. into persuading his Front-Bench colleagues that they are wrong to want to abolish the regional development The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for agencies in the way that they have set out. Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): Obviously, local authorities receive funding. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): One of the most important Northumberland has just received a 2.9 per cent. increase local authority regeneration initiatives is the proposed in funding and has the flexibility to use it as it wishes. Mersey gateway bridge, which will provide hundreds of However, we will consider the point that the right hon. construction jobs and thousands of jobs thereafter. Gentleman has raised. Will my right hon. Friend speak to her opposite number in the Department for Transport to ensure that we get a T4. [321024] John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) decision quickly, because the planning inspection decision (Lab): Is my right hon. Friend concerned about some comes from within that Department? We need a quick local councils charging extra for some lesser services, decision to get on with the project, create those jobs and but in the meantime keeping council tax low for political sort out the congestion in my constituency. purposes and not meeting the needs of the poor and the needy? Ms Winterton: I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend has done on this matter. When I was a Transport Mr. Denham: I am concerned about that. Charging Minister, I met him and colleagues from the council to for some local services has always been part of the discuss the project, and I know how valuable it is to the operation of local government, but some local authorities local economy, so I shall certainly bring his point to the now seem to have a deliberate strategy of keeping basic attention of Transport Ministers. services as basic as possible and allowing people on 149 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 150 middle incomes to get a decent service only if they are 1974, Labour, Liberal and Conservative Governments prepared to pay twice. That is not the way that I want to and councils—all three parties have been equally to see local government services going, and my hon. Friend blame—have constantly reorganised local government, is quite right to highlight those political parties that are creating unnecessary tiers of management. Why do we indulging in that approach. not return to a lean machine, get rid of the layers of management in local authorities and start calling people T3. [321023] Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) “The borough engineer”or “The surveyor”, which people (Con): Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity understand, rather than calling them after these God- to address the question put to him earlier by my hon. almighty directorships of something-or-other, which Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman); vary from week to week? namely, where will the funding come from in the current financial year to provide for the Government’s Mr. Denham: May I reassure my hon. Friend that proposals on social care? although the report from the taskforce on making efficiencies in local government— Mr. Denham: As I set out earlier, local government has already planned to make efficiency savings. We believe that it can make the additional savings needed to Andrew Mackinlay: His name’s Bullock, isn’t it? fund services for the new policy, which comes in not at the beginning of the coming year, but halfway through Mr. Denham: Bullock and Leese. The taskforce does it. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that, as I said not, as I recall, call for the re-establishment of the earlier, the policy will be accompanied by the biggest position of borough surveyor; none the less, it directly transfer of funding into local government from the addresses the need to reduce layers of management national health service since the establishment of the both within local authorities and, in particular, between NHS in 1948. I hope that he will welcome that. them in areas with two-tier councils.

T9. [321029] Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North T6. [321026] Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): From and Fleetwood) (Lab): Does the Minister share my next month lap dancing will have to be licensed by local concern and that of many other Blackpool residents authorities. Will the Secretary of State look into whether that our local Conservative council is refusing to put in the income from the lap dancing licence should go into an extra £148,000 to repair the many potholes that have paying officials to spot whether the conditions are being appeared after the winter, when it has £6.8 million in met and whether any of the girls dancing in a club may reserves? have been trafficked?

Barbara Follett: I share my hon. Friend’s concern Barbara Follett: I am sorry to give the hon. Gentleman about that. The weather has been exceptionally severe. a disappointing answer, but his question does not really That is why, in acknowledging the problems of the fall under the remit of my Department. He will have to severe weather, the Government have trebled funding to address it to the Department for Culture, Media and local authorities to invest in their roads, and last year Sport or to the Home Office. we announced new funding to help them better assess the condition of their roads. Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Do those on the Front Bench agree that local authorities that are paying T5. [321025] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): I am sure compensation for bullying ought to offer better training that the Secretary of State is aware that the mortgage and that they should be better employers? Should not repossession scheme operated by Rochdale council has the public also have a right to know how much money is been one of the most successful in the country in being paid out in such circumstances? keeping people in their own homes. However, funding for that scheme nationally is available only until next year. What steps will the Secretary of State take to Mr. Denham: I am on record as being very much in ensure that funding is available when the current favour of people having as much knowledge as possible funding finishes next year? about local authorities’ spending. We have set out measures over the past few months to ensure that that happens. The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I welcome We also believe that people working in local government, the hon. Gentleman’s recognition that the steps that we which is a vital public service, deserve the best quality of have taken locally and nationally, including on the human resources management, as it is called in the funding to support the scheme, to try to help people jargon these days. What that really means is treating struggling with their mortgages during this recession people properly and with respect. have been working well. We have put that funding in place for this year and next year. That action—Government T7. [321027] Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) action that we have been prepared to take—is one of (LD): Thousands of students in Leeds and around the the reasons why repossessions in this recession are country are still not protected by the tenancy shorthold running at around half the rate that they were in the last protection scheme. Last November, the Under-Secretary recession. of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Dudley, North (Mr. Austin) said that Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): May I take the the Government would shortly be publishing the results Secretary of State back to the issue of maximising of the review, but those people are still not being scarce resources, efficiency savings and protecting front-line protected. Will he give us an update and tell us why that services, and offer a view? The problem is that since is the case? 151 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 152

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for their children will have homes that they can move into, Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): I and that there will be provision for elderly people in cannot give the hon. Gentleman that information now, the future. Those who pretend that we can simply say but I would be happy to meet him and discuss the that we are not going to provide that housing and matter in detail. that someone else will provide the space in which our children need to live are wrong. It is enormously damaging T8. [321028] Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): to suggest that. It is also, frankly, misleading to local A few days ago, the Secretary of State gave permission people to suggest that the hon. Gentleman’s approach for 3,000 new homes to be built in Wellingborough would work. There must be a mature discussion in this north, against the wishes of local residents, local country about meeting the needs of people now and councillors and myself. What democratic credibility in the future, and I am sorry that he does not share can this Government have when the Secretary of State that view. makes such a decision so near to a general election? Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): The South West of Mr. Denham: Since I came into the House in 1992, I England Regional Development Agency is pumping have held the view that Parliament and this House were millions into the Porton science park in my constituency, sovereign. I do not share the concept that there is a in partnership with Wiltshire council, which is regenerating period of time when the House is sitting when decisions the social and physical infrastructure. Will the Secretary should not be taken. Decisions are taken properly and of State have a word with Ministers in the Department in accordance with the law, after we have considered all of Health, who are talking about supporting the Health the relevant processes. It is only right that Ministers Protection Agency in moving nearly 800 of its work should continue to take decisions as long as the House force out of the south-west, which needs the jobs, into is sitting as a properly constituted, democratically elected the overcrowded south-east? Is the Lyons review still Chamber. living, or is it dead?

Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): Given the Mr. Denham: I will talk to my right hon. Friend at the consensus that exists in areas such as south Worcestershire Department of Health if the hon. Gentleman will talk about the need for more homes—and for more affordable to his hon. Friend on the Front Bench to say how crazy homes, in particular—may I urge the Secretary of State, it would be to scrap the regional development agency even at this late stage, to tear up the west midlands that he values so highly in his constituency, because that regional spatial strategy and to allow local communities is exactly what would happen. to decide exactly how many houses they need and precisely where they should go? Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Why is the junior Minister for local government refusing to meet Mr. Denham: It is important that the combination of me to discuss the persistently low level of grant given to local, regional and national policy should be used to Sevenoaks district council? It has had an increase of secure sufficient homes to meet the needs of families in only 7 per cent. over the last 10 years compared to an this country in the future. We have rejected calls to scrap average for district councils of more than 50 per cent. regional spatial strategies and planning targets and to Will she reconsider? leave everything to decision making at local level because we know full well that the house building industry Barbara Follett: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman; would grind to a halt, that land would not be available, I was not aware that I was persistently refusing, and I that growth would be slowed and that the needs of this would be most happy to see him. country’s families would not be met. The house building industry is terrified by the prospect of such a policy Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) being brought into play. (LD): My local council wants to build and renovate many more affordable homes. Will the Government give Several hon. Members rose— Southwark council permission to borrow at the lowest interest rates that the market offers rather than at the Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to accommodate highest rates that it is currently locked into? several more colleagues, but I hope that they will be considerate of each other. John Healey: We are not just making grant available to support councils that want to build affordable homes Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): After five years, across the country, including in Southwark, but we are the south-west regional spatial strategy is still grinding looking at ways of dismantling the system of financing on with unsustainable housing targets that are way in council housing for the future. I hope to be able to excess of economic reality and local housing need. It update the House on that before long. has attracted 37,000 objections and run into legal challenges; it has also now clearly run out of time. When will the Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): Government admit defeat and return to local people How does the Secretary of State reconcile his duty to their right to plan the houses that they need where champion local government with his decision to impose people want them? unitary authorities that are not wanted? Does he believe that the gentleman in Whitehall still knows best? Mr. Denham: The total number of houses is based not on some whim of central Government but on a Mr. Denham: The proposals we are putting forward hard-headed assessment of need. That need translates are indeed wanted in Exeter and in Norwich. My right into the families of this country who want to know that hon. Friend the Minister for Regional Economic 153 Oral Answers9 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 154

Development and Co-ordination and I propose having what further measures we can take when it is proposed a unitary council for Exeter and one for Norwich, to create or fill one of these very highly paid posts. which I think is the right thing to do. Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Further to the question Turning to the earlier question about Hammersmith put by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), and Fulham, the Secretary of State seemed entirely does the Secretary of State believe that the pay packages unaware of the quote that he had made about the leader of senior council officers have increased for selfish of the council, so let me take him back to the opening reasons to indefensible levels? Does he believe, as I do, line of his party conference speech, when he said: that it is time that we slimmed down these fat cats? “‘They are hard to get rid of’, the Tory Leader of Hammersmith and Fulham moans about his council tenants.” Mr. Denham: It is very clear that over a period of That was an invented quote, which has been repeated time in which the average pay of council workers has many times by his colleagues, including in the document, gone up by £6,000 a year, the average pay of chief “Cameron’s Councils”. Will he finally take the opportunity executives has gone up by £40,000 a year. Although I to withdraw this disgraceful slur on one of the best-run pay tribute to the vast majority of those people with a councils in the country? lifetime of public service, things have got out of hand at the top. That is why we have required from April the Mr. Denham: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for publication of the full details of every named post in drawing attention to the publication Cameron’s Councils”, which an individual is paid more than £150,000 a year, because it sets out for everybody the very clear warning and details of the pay in £5,000 bands from £50,000 of what it would be like if people were so ill advised as upwards. I will also talk to local government about to elect a Conservative Government. 155 9 MARCH 2010 156

Point of Order Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 3.34 pm No. 23) Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): I rise to make a point of order, of which I gave your office 3.35 pm notice yesterday, in connection with the shameful behaviour of the Department for Work and Pensions in failing to Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I beg to move, answer written parliamentary questions tabled by me That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for and other Front-Bench colleagues—specifically, limiting the use of hydrofluorocarbons in certain premises; and questions 316961 and 316962. What action are you able for connected purposes. to take, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that Government Ministers The purpose of the Bill is to bring an end to the use are indeed accountable to all Members? These questions of hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs, in the refrigeration were asked more than a calendar month ago, and I units of large supermarkets— suspect that the Department wishes to bury bad news by not answering them. How can you help me, Sir? Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that the clock can be Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman both for his stopped, but I should be grateful if Members who are point of order and for giving me notice of it. Let me leaving the Chamber would do so quickly and quietly. reiterate the position that is expected of Ministers in all The noise is very discourteous to the Member who has Departments: timely replies should be provided to written the Floor. I hope that we can have some regard to the parliamentary questions. way in which our proceedings are viewed by people I was waiting for what I regarded as the crux of the outside this place. hon. Gentleman’s inquiry, namely the length of time for which he had been waiting. For him to table a question Clive Efford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. and find a month later that he had not received any reply—or, at any rate, had received no substantive reply— Last year, I presented a similar Bill in an attempt to was not satisfactory. persuade the Government to regulate for the complete phasing out of HFCs in large supermarkets. Today, The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the new system I shall attempt to impress on them three facts which I that I have introduced, which gives better transparency hope will convince them that it is time to act. HFCs are to the record of Departments in answering questions. I extremely harmful in terms of global warming and had hoped that that would serve to shame Departments represent a growing proportion of our emissions. There into superior performance. If it has not, we may have to is little to suggest that current European Union and look at the thing again, but it really will not do. United Kingdom regulation in the field has encouraged large retailers to speed up the process of eradicating the use of HFCs in their stores, and there is nothing in EU regulation to prevent the Government from regulating in this regard. According to Greenpeace, HFCs can be up to 20,000 times more damaging in terms of global warming than carbon dioxide. The most common gas used in supermarket refrigeration, HFC-404A, is 3,800 times more harmful than carbon dioxide. It is predicted that by 2020 HFC emissions will be equivalent to between 2 billion and 2.6 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide, approximately four times the level of the United Kingdom’s annual greenhouse gas emissions. In 2005, stationary refrigeration units were the biggest source of F-gas emissions in the UK, and within that total, supermarkets account for more than half the emissions. Phasing out the HFCs in supermarkets has the potential to save more than 175 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalence between now and 2050. That is equivalent to a quarter of the UK’s annual carbon dioxide emissions. The potential impact of gases on global warming is averaged over 100 years, which reflects the extraordinarily long time that gases responsible for global warming remain in the atmosphere and add to the problem. HFCs do not last for 100 years. The evidence is that global warming is accelerating. Prompt action now to remove gases that are 4,000 times more harmful than carbon dioxide and do not linger as long as other harmful gases has the attraction of buying much-needed time for other greenhouse gas mitigating measures to take effect. I hope the Minister will accept that the time to act is now. 157 Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation9 MARCH 2010 Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation 158

I presented my Bill last year in response to a report of the article are the most relevant. They clearly demonstrate from the Environmental Investigation Agency on the the need for the Government to make a case for the use of hydrofluorocarbons in supermarket refrigeration eradication of HFCs here in the UK—nothing is preventing units. I commend the agency on its work. Its report was the Government from making that case. prompted by the announcement by a group of large The Commission would then be required to consider supermarkets that they intend to move away from the whether this form of practice was aimed at seeking use of HFCs. The EIA carried out its survey to monitor advantage over other EU countries or companies that progress in August 2008. Its conclusions were not operate within those countries and whether the UK was encouraging—the best-performing supermarket succeeded seeking to exclude those people from free trade with the in reducing its HFC use in only three out of 620 stores. UK. Those paragraphs contain clear powers for the UK The figures for other supermarkets were just four out to regulate to tackle environmental issues. Nothing of 1,700 stores and one out of 2,250 stores. I shall not excludes the UK from acting in this area and preventing name and shame the supermarkets involved, because the further use of HFCs in the future. the response in this area has been so mixed. The stated So, in conclusion, may I urge my hon. Friends in the view from many in the industry is that regulation in this Department to take on board the three arguments that I area would create the confidence across the industry to have made today and to agree to meet me and the EIA plan ahead, knowing that the supermarkets are all in the near future to discuss ways in which we can make operating within the same framework. Such an approach a case to the European Commission that we are not would bring about the stated objective of the Department, breaching European competition laws, that there is which is to eradicate the use of HFCs. That view still scientific evidence that proves that it is necessary for us applies today. to act in this field, that current European and UK Following the presentation of my Bill last year, my regulations are not moving the large supermarket chains hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for along the road of eradicating hydrofluorocarbons and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs wrote a letter to that action in the UK is absolutely necessary? With the EIA on 11 November in which he accepted that that, I commend the Bill to the House. supermarkets were the “big emitters” and that “reducing their emissions is a key focus of Defra’s work to reduce HFC emissions overall.” 3.45 pm He went on to say that in the short term the Government anticipate that Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I rise to comment on this Bill, provoked by the question of why we need “with the comprehensive EU and GB regulatory framework now such legislation in the first place. I agree with the fully in force, significant reductions”— intentions and objectives of the hon. Member for Eltham in the use of HFCs— (Clive Efford), but I am extremely worried about the “will be achieved in the next few years.” situation in which we find ourselves. We always talk I am sorry to say that there is little evidence that that is about the environment, as do the supermarkets, yet they moving companies in the right direction. do not feel compelled to act without the threat of legislation. Like the hon. Gentleman, I have heard the In Aug 2009, the EIA carried out a further study of supermarkets making various claims on this matter, as large supermarkets to see how far they had got in well as various general commitments to phasing out the moving away from being dependent on these extremely hydrofluorocarbon-related refrigeration units that he harmful gases. Only 2 per cent. of the major stores in has described. However, as he has rightly pointed out, the UK are running HFC-free refrigeration systems—only the reality is far from the public relations commitments. 46 are now HFC-free compared with 14 last year. One If the supermarkets are serious about the environment of the largest supermarkets has experimented with HFCs and about improving their environmental footprint, as but has reneged on its promise to switch all its stores they incessantly tell us in their advertising, they ought away from the use of HFCs, while one major chain to be making a formal statement about what date they continues to use HCFCs—hydrochlorofluorocarbons— will set for themselves to phase out the refrigeration which are supposed to be phased out this year. Aldi, units in question—perhaps 31 December 2015, which Morrisons and Sainsbury’s refused to share their data would give them half a decade to finish the job. on leakages, and so I shall make an exception in naming them. The level of the leakages emitted into the atmosphere It seems to me that it would be unhelpful for me to reported to the EIA ranged from 14 to 17 per cent. of divide the House on this matter—it would be a poor use HFCs, so I am afraid that my hon. Friend’s confidence of the Chamber’s time—but I want to put on the record that the current regulatory regimes in the EU and the my view that if no action is unilaterally taken by the UK are sufficient to meet the urgent need for action on supermarkets without this legislation, we cannot accept HFCs is misplaced. I hope that he will accept the their claims that they take the environment seriously. I argument that the time to regulate has come. fear that not only will the supermarkets give us more My third point is that nothing in the competition words without action, but when it comes down to a rules prevents the Government from regulating in this fairly straightforward change of the type that the hon. area. May I refer the Minister to article 95 of the treaty Gentleman wants to see, they will be resistant for purely establishing the Economic Community which, following economic reasons. The environment is more important the passage of the treaty of Lisbon—I pardon him if he than that. starts to fall asleep as I read this technical section—became Let us see whether this ten-minute Bill causes the article 114 of the treaty on the functioning of the supermarkets to act and to make a commitment to act European Community, TFEC? While on the approximation in the next few days. If they do not, not only will I be of laws, I should mention that paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7 disappointed by the claimed intentions of supermarkets 159 Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation 9 MARCH 2010 160 [Lembit Öpik] Opposition Day not being followed up with action, but I will also feel that the prognosis for the environment as a whole is [5TH ALLOTTED DAY] grim indeed. Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. Health Care in London Ordered, That Clive Efford, Steve Webb, Norman Baker, Peter Mr. Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected Bottomley, Andrew George, Mr. David Drew, Jim Dowd, the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. The Mr. Michael Meacher, Mr. Andrew Dismore, Ms Karen House will also be conscious that I have imposed a limit Buck, John Austin and Mrs. Ann Cryer present the Bill. of eight minutes on Back-Bench contributions both in this debate and in the second Opposition day debate. Clive Efford accordingly presented the Bill. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on 3.49 pm Friday 30 April and to be printed (Bill 81). Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I beg to move, That this House recognises that London has some of the leading hospitals and healthcare services and expertise in the world; notes with concern that some areas of London have the worst outcomes for stroke, heart disease and cancer in the country; is alarmed that health inequalities in the capital rank among the worst in the country; believes in improving services to meet the needs of London’s 7.5 million inhabitants; calls for the delivery of a public health strategy geared towards the reduction of health inequalities; calls on NHS London to halt the implementation of current sector-wide reconfiguration proposals across London, including accident and emergency services, until a more effective public consultation is in place; further calls for service configurations that are soundly evidence-based and which meet the choice of patients and the referral intentions of local GPs; further believes that consultant-led obstetric departments and maternity units should not be closed, whilst they are safe, accessible and responsive to a continuing need; and calls on NHS London and the Department of Health to publish the details of the commitments made at the time of the Olympics bid to fund healthcare services in the capital, and to disclose what the current estimate is of the cost of providing services for the Olympics and how it is proposed that this should be funded. Members of the House, particularly the many with London constituencies, will be aware that for the past two years there has been a process called Healthcare for London, which has increasingly sought to prescribe to the health economies across London how they should design their services, which services should be provided and by whom, and, by implication therefore, where patients should go for their treatment. The purpose of the debate is to give the House, for what I think is the first time, the opportunity to express a view on how we want health care services in London to be provided in future. We want literally to fire a shot across the bows of those in the upper hierarchies of the NHS who want to determine these things without reference to the public whom they serve, to the general practitioners who refer patients, or to the patients themselves, who have a right to exercise choice. We also want to give the House an opportunity to set out how it wishes Healthcare for London to be improved in the years ahead. My first point is at the heart of improving health outcomes. We need to focus on improving public health in London, which has some of the greatest health inequalities in the country. At ward level, between Tottenham and Kensington and Chelsea, for example, there is a disparity in life expectancy of 17 years. I know that such disparities exist in other parts of the country, but those are very pronounced. We feel the issue even more keenly when we see such relative wealth and poverty side by side in London, where nearly one in four children live in poverty. 161 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 162

There are many specific health problems that are greater make sure that the legacy will be realised. However, in London than anywhere else in the country. The level some very particular costs will arise in 2012 itself, and I of sexually transmitted infections is higher in London think, from what he said two or three weeks ago, that than anywhere else, and the level of alcohol abuse and the Minister has estimated them to be in the order of dependency is higher than in any other region in the some £30 million. country, as is the level of drug use and abuse. We When he replies, I hope that the Minister will tell us know—not least because London is where many refugees, precisely what the costs are. What commitments on asylum seekers and, indeed, rough sleepers are found—that costs have been given to the London Organising Committee London has 40 per cent. of the total number of tuberculosis of the Olympic Games, and how does he intend them to cases in the country and more than 50 per cent. of HIV be met in the NHS in London during 2012? cases. The importance of having an effective public health strategy must be at the heart of this issue. Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving I commend the Mayor of London for the health way. On the subject of implications, will he make it clear inequalities strategy that he published last October. I to the House whether there are any implications for the shall not dwell on that at length, although there is Better Healthcare Closer to Home programme, which plenty of reason to do so, because time will not permit affects residents in Sutton and Merton? The programme it. The document that I published with my right hon. would provide a new hospital on the St. Helier site, and Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) in February local care hospitals in the area. Will he confirm that the was about focusing on public health, having a dedicated argument that he is deploying today about what should public health budget and having a health premium that happen with the NHS in London will have no implications is intended to support successful local strategies. for that programme? In the London context, I want to make it clear that if we were given the opportunity to do so by the electorate Mr. Lansley: I assure the hon. Gentleman that what I of London, we would equip the local NHS with individual have said about public health will not impact directly on London boroughs to pursue locally owned strategies to the availability of NHS services. I remind the House improve public health. We also intend that the NHS about the current level of spending on public health should co-operate, on a London basis, directly with the care in London through the Healthy Living programme. Mayor of London to pursue the health inequalities [Interruption.] The Minister might be interested in this, strategy. Given the particular characteristic of London because 13 primary care trusts in London spend more as a city with city-wide government, we want that on management than they do on public health under city-wide government to bear down on the particular the Healthy Living programme. public health challenges that I have mentioned and to exploit opportunities for promoting better health in Across London, the average spend on the Healthy London, and I know from my conversations with the Living programme is £38 a head, and average management Mayor that he is immensely keen to do that. costs are more than £30 a head. The total for management costs in London is £246 million a year, and that shows a The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike rise of 22 per cent. in just the past three years. We want O’Brien): I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about to cut those management costs by a third over the next health inequalities in London, and I am curious to four years. We will reinvest all the money, because we know how much money he would transfer from Chelsea aim to protect the NHS budget and increase it in real to Haringey, for example, to deal with those relative terms every year. That means that we will be able to inequalities. ensure that we have less bureaucracy and more promotion of public health. Mr. Lansley: As the Minister is in no position to tell us what the spending in individual primary care trusts Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): No will be beyond 2010-11, I shall not take any lectures areas of public health are more important than drug from him on this. What we are clear about—this has abuse and drug treatment. A great deal of public money never happened under a Labour Government—is having has gone into them, targets have been set and a huge a direct focus on public health outcomes and a amount of management brought to bear, yet very little determination to use the resources of the NHS to has been achieved in terms of outcomes or recovery reward successful strategies. It is understood as well in from addictions. Is not that a prime example of Labour Kensington and Chelsea as it is in Haringey or Tottenham failure? that the places with the worst current health outcomes should be where we focus our public health resources Mr. Lansley: Yes; my hon. Friend has made a very not only to improve everybody’s health but to narrow important point. We have to be focused on results. I am those health inequalities. afraid that for too long parts of the country have said, “We have relatively poor outcomes, so we must have Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Will more money,” yet the money has never been used to the hon. Gentleman give way? deliver proper results. I make no pretence about the fact that it is a tough Mr. Lansley: In a second, as I want to make the point call. In straitened financial circumstances, we intend set out in our motion. We have previously given Ministers that the dedicated public health budget will rise in real a chance to be clear about what implications and terms, but we have to ensure that that will deliver opportunities will arise for the NHS and London through results. As we made clear in our public health green the Olympics. Clearly, the games represent a very great paper, we believe that we stand a much better chance of opportunity in public health terms, and we have to achieving those results if we engage properly with local 163 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 164

[Mr. Lansley] £25 million management consultancy cost the year before last, many of the things that needed to be done have not authorities and the NHS as a local strategy, with voluntary- been done. sector bodies as deliverers. That approach will help charities and voluntary-sector organisations, when the Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): My results come through from the services that they provide, hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Is he aware that to believe that their funding will be locked in on a more that concern is particularly reinforced in south-east permanent basis. That will be better than the constant London, where it seems that underlying assumptions flow of short-term initiatives that have so undermined based on a crisis-driven need to amalgamate three trusts them in the past. into a huge super-trust are distorting the assumptions and the long-term planning, reinforced by the suggestion Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): in documents seen by the South London Healthcare Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Trust, that the principal driver of this is to “right-size”—in other words, financially rectify—the enormous historic deficit that it inherited? Mr. Lansley: No, as I want to make some points about the Healthcare for London programme. Mr. Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important In January, NHS London published an overall strategic point. Experience suggests that merging three failing plan, and we have begun to see some of the so-called organisations does not make one big successful organisation. “sector plans” for different areas of London. The plan I hope I am proved wrong and that the South London for outer north-east London has been published and Healthcare Trust succeeds in its objectives, but I am the one for north-west London has been leaked. In afraid that past evidence does not necessarily support addition, people are speculating about what the implications that, and the trust has a massive debt. might be for other places across London. The central issue is that NHS London is making There are questions about the assumptions underlying extreme assumptions about the ability to transfer activity the NHS London approach. It does not help that the from within hospitals to a community context. Alongside text of the document published in January by NHS that, it is assuming dramatic reductions in cost, which London is confusing and erroneous. The notes relating are not proven. to the scenarios and the funding figures were transposed, they did not include the base case at all, and they were wrong. For example, there was a reference to 2.3 per Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): cent. per annum funding growth in the next spending My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. He has review period, which should have been minus 2.3 per visited our area, south-east London, regularly to see at cent. Essentially, NHS London is assuming that there first hand the problems of health care that we had. The will be unchanged real terms funding for the NHS all regrettable reorganisation that my hon. Friend the Member the way through to 2016-17. Alongside that, it assumes for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) referred to 3.5 per cent. cost inflation in the NHS. We need to is causing great concern locally about the provision and challenge the assumption that costs can be accommodated quality of health care that constituents will receive. in that way. NHS London also assumes 4 per cent. a There is failure in our area. What reassurance can my year demand growth, which is not in line with the hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire projections of demand growth produced by the King’s (Mr. Lansley) give our area about the future? Fund and the Institute for Fiscal Studies on a national basis. Mr. Lansley: I hope that I can give the reassurance We know what NHS London set out to do—make a that decisions will be made locally in relation to local set of assumptions, arrive at a big funding shortfall in needs, local patients’ choice and GP referral decisions. 2017, and tell everyone that they must do the things that My visit with my hon. Friend to his constituency, and NHS London is calling for them to do—but let us leave the example of Queen Mary’s hospital in Sidcup, begin that on one side. to give the lie to the Government’s amendment—in that none of the changes will happen unless and until new Under any reasonable set of assumptions, we have to services have been developed. That is far from the case deliver efficiency savings and improving productivity in at the moment, and it is assumed that patients who the NHS, including in London, in ways that have not are denied access to hospital services will simply be been adopted in the past. Over the past 10 years, when accommodated elsewhere in the community at a lower funding for the NHS has more than doubled, how is it cost. The assumptions are literally heroic, stating that it possible that in London there is still legacy debt of will be possible for 55 per cent. of out-patient and more than £500 million for the NHS trusts and a 60 per cent. of accident and emergency attendances to worrying number of financially challenged trusts, and take place in the community rather than in the hospital. very few of the changes that should have taken place in The Government cite the National Primary Care the NHS to redesign services and deliver care more Research and Development Centre, which just over two appropriately and more effectively have happened? Perhaps years ago undertook a study on care closer to home, but the Minister will explain. that does not for a minute justify the 55 per cent. The moment when the financial pressures are assumed out-patients figure. All the examples are small-scale, to begin is the moment when NHS London feels that it and none systematically demonstrates a reduction in must start taking the management action necessary to cost if one maintains quality, not least because good-quality respond to it. There has been a dereliction of duty. community services often have to be delivered by the After a 20 per cent. increase in management costs and a same hospital specialists—or certainly with them, 165 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 166 and as a result of their training and co-operation. The Kingston hospital. No document had been published Government cannot point to any evidence that supports and there was no documentary evidence to support the their assumptions. closure claim, and the chairman and chief executive of the Kingston Hospital NHS Trust have completely refuted Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): My it. My hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead constituents are hugely concerned about the future of (Mike Penning) has been to Kingston hospital to discuss Barnet hospital and Chase Farm hospital. Does my this, and he can vouch for that fact. hon. Friend share their anger that the whole NHS London process has been so secretive, compounding Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con) fears that it is all about suiting the agenda of NHS rose— managers, not patients? Mr. Lansley: I promised you, Mr. Speaker, that I Mr. Lansley: I entirely agree. My hon. Friend knows would confine myself to taking interventions from those about this, because she, other hon. Friends and I have who are currently seeking to intervene, and no more been to see the management of Barnet and Chase Farm than that. Hospitals NHS Trust over five years to try to work out what they propose to do with Chase Farm hospital, and to argue the case for it. Time and again, in the private Mr. Hands: My hon. Friend will know that the north-west conversations that we have had, it was clear that options London commissioning partnership is looking at closing were not being presented. It was also perfectly clear that five of the eight A and E departments in that sector. At the management sought to prejudice the public consultation the same time NHS London, in its letter of 22 January by tying up in advance the views of all the clinicians 2010, suggested that there should be only one site in the whom they employed. That is not satisfactory, either. huge Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust area. What does he think might be the implications of that for the residents of Hammersmith and Fulham, and the Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): Does my royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea? hon. Friend agree that there is no better example of things not being done that ought to be done than the redevelopment of Purley War Memorial hospital, which Mr. Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is part of the Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust? In 2001 a makes a very important point. One of the assumptions pledge was given at the Government Dispatch Box to is a 60 per cent. transfer of accident and emergency redevelop that hospital. Nine years later, nothing has cases out of A and E and into the community. A study happened and there are still no concrete plans for on primary care and emergency departments commissioned, redevelopment. Can my hon. Friend assure me that a and published last Friday, by the Department of Health, future Conservative Government will get behind the said that, of arrivals at A and E, local authorities and deliver something for the people of “We found that the proportion that could be classified as south Croydon? primary care cases was between 10 per cent. and 30 per cent.” It went on to say: Mr. Lansley: I am glad that my hon. Friend has made “There is good evidence that the majority of patients choose that point, because I can give him that assurance. Indeed, the correct level of care. A few do not and it is always a risk to I have made it very clear to the chief executive of the plan for the few rather than the many.” Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust that I shall support its In north-west London—we have seen the documentation action in seeking to develop Purley War Memorial on that area—it is astonishing to make this proposal hospital, and I am very pleased that Croydon council is and talk about such a massive transfer out of A and E, getting behind the project, too, because the planning given last year’s figures. In Chelsea and Westminster the authority and the NHS trust must be willing to make it rate of A and E attendances has gone up by 4 per cent.; happen. That redevelopment is very important, because in Ealing the figure is up by 1 per cent.; for Imperial, if the trust is to become a foundation trust that service taking Charing Cross and Hammersmith together, it is needs to be provided and that project needs to go up by 9 per cent.; in North West London Hospitals it is ahead. up by 15 per cent.; in Hillingdon it is up by 6 per cent.; and in West Middlesex it is up by 5 per cent. All those Mr. Davey: I, too, deplore the secrecy of the process. hospital emergency departments have people pouring Will the hon. Gentleman therefore join me, and his hon. in. It is simply not true to say that there is any evidence Friends, in calling for the publication of many documents, to support the proposition that the services in the including the McKinsey report that lies behind the community that would justify what is being proposed in process, and in my own area, the south-west London terms of the closure of emergency departments have strategic plan, which contains many of the options that been put in place. so concern people? Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Mr. Lansley: I entirely agree that it would be very Green) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way? helpful if those management consultancy reports were published. However, our every step has been taken not on the basis of speculating or scaremongering, but Several hon. Members rose— entirely on the basis of trying to identify clear evidence. I must confess that I was therefore rather disturbed to Mr. Lansley: I will give way to my right hon. Friend find that, according to the associate editor of the Daily the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green Mirror, Liberal Democrat activists openly boasted that (Mr. Duncan Smith), and then take interventions from they had stirred up the campaign about the closure of those who are standing, but I will stop there. 167 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 168

Mr. Duncan Smith: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind there should be transparency.Perhaps he and his colleagues the fact that we have had exactly this problem in north-east would like to publish the evidence that they have on London, where there is a shortfall in spending between these matters. the north-west and the north-east? The drive to close Whipps Cross is mainly down to the zealotry of officials, Mr. Lansley: I can tell my hon. Friend that after the now released from secrecy, and people not telling the election, one of two things will happen. There will be truth about it. They talk about pushing stuff out into either a Labour-derived, top-down plan that threatens the community, but in our area there has been a 10 per to turn many of London’s major hospitals into what cent. fall in the number of health visitors, and the Labour terms “local hospitals”, which in some cases caseloads in relation to children under five are at least seems to mean a move from an emergency department double that recommended by Lord Laming. It is an to a GP-led urgent care service—a potentially serious utter disaster, but we cannot get those people to face up retrograde step when attendance at A and E is rising—or to that. a Conservative approach of trying to allow GPs, local authorities and local people to design services that Mr. Lansley: My right hon. Friend makes an extremely respond to patient need and choice and provide referral important point. Putting a walk-in centre or an urgent opportunities. If patients are arriving at an A and E care centre on the front of a hospital is a perfectly department, they should be handled appropriately reasonable and sensible idea, but when that happened at there. Whipps Cross the net effect was 2,000 fewer patients a month attending the emergency department at Whipps Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): May I say that Cross, but 4,000 extra patients a month attending the the hon. Gentleman’s remarks at the beginning about urgent care centre. We should not assume that that health inequality in London were very well made and leads to lower costs, as it might stimulate demand. struck the mood of the House? I profoundly hope that we can discuss this matter without descending into party political rancour. On his point about A and E Joan Ryan (Enfield, North) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman admissions, Ealing hospital—I was there at the opening, referred to Barnet hospital and Chase Farm hospital, not all that long ago—was built to treat 25,000 people a which we have discussed before. He knows that I do not year but deals with 100,000 a year. Does he agree that support any downgrading of my local A and E, but we although we may well move to a polyclinic model in have won an important step forward in relation to a future, we cannot do that now, and we cannot abandon 24-hour doctor-led service for the future. These changes people in A and E? This is not a matter of Labour and will not take place until 2013. He must also know that Conservative, but a matter of life and death. in an interview with The London Daily News the Conservatives have said that their position is Mr. Lansley: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. That “not a guarantee that we will keep A&E”. is precisely my point. He is right that Ealing hospital In “Enfield News”, which is hand-delivered by the has 100,000 people coming through its doors to its Conservatives, they have said: emergency department each year. If it were not there, “It is impossible to make commitments”. where would they all go? There is always a case for change, and nothing will be absolutely static, but let us Does not that say it all about the Tories on the NHS—no work with the hospitals that we have, and let them start commitment? the business of designing new services. I see the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Mr. Lansley: Time and again I have told the right Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson), hon. Lady that we have been committed, over years, in his place. He was out with his colleagues and others to defending the right of local people and local protesting about the possible closure of the emergency commissioners—general practitioners—in Enfield to department at the Whittington, which is on the same determine what services should be provided for them at scale. We should work with hospitals in London and say Chase Farm. It is a disgrace that local people have been that, yes, we may need to design better services, a care ignored in what is being pushed through there. She pathway that extends out into the community and services should talk to the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) that are more integrated around patients instead of to see how good he thinks it is to get rid of an emergency having a primary-secondary divide, but we should give department and put in an urgent care centre, because the hospitals the opportunity to deliver those services. the local people in Burnley did not accept it. Of course I We have a lot of hospital sites in London, many of shall not have a top-down Conservative approach replacing which are accessible to much of the population, and we a top-down Labour approach. What we will have is a can deliver services from them rather than shut them structure that listens to patients and responds to local down and open polyclinics, as with the absurdity at GPs, allowing them to be sure that they can put services Sidcup. in place. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): In outer south-east London, Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): My hon. when the proposals in the “Apicture of health”programme Friend made a comment about Kingston hospital. I was were first put forward in October 2007, we were told so concerned about some of the campaigning that has that they had come from a conference of clinicians, gone on, including a challenge in newspapers to me as doctors, nurses and midwives who had got together and Conservative MP for Wimbledon, that I met Healthcare come up with them. It was on that basis that they were for South West London last Friday, and was told that supported. They were reviewed by Dr. George Alberti, nothing was going to happen. The hon. Member for who gave them his bill of health, for want of a better Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) has suggested that expression. The hon. Gentleman says that he is not in 169 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 170 favour of top-down planning for our local NHS services, get them up and running, or for a shift in activity away but if our local clinicians have drawn up the proposals, from hospitals, before the point at which hospitals are what is the basis of his objections? shut down.

Mr. Lansley: I can tell the hon. Gentleman this in one Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): Will the hon. sentence: he should go and talk to his local GPs. I have Gentleman give way? talked to representatives of the GP community across London, and they share our concerns about the nature of this process and about many of the assumptions that Mr. Lansley: No. seem to underlie how it will be pursued. Page 20 of the January 2010 document says: “Implementing Healthcare for London means a considerable Several hon. Members rose— shift in activity from acute to polysystem settings. Unless any surplus capacity can be exited quickly”— Mr. Lansley: I will give way to my hon. Friend the which I think means shutting hospitals— Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire), but then “there will be significant double running costs. Developing proposals I must finish my speech. for service change, consulting stakeholders on those proposals and implementing agreed service changes takes too long and is James Brokenshire (Hornchurch) (Con): We have heard expensive. A speedier approach to reconfiguring services needs to about the proposals being clinically led, but does my be developed”. hon. Friend agree that some of the decisions have been There we have it. The Government’s amendment is not made purely on the basis of private finance initiative what NHS London is setting out to do: that is in black contracts? The focus has been on hospitals with large and white in NHS London’s document. It says, “We PFI contracts. In north-east London, the focus is on don’t want double-running costs; we want to be able to centring everything around the Queen’s hospital and shut hospitals down quickly, and a speedier way of putting more pressure on it, and in south-east London, doing that”—but that is not what is in the amendment. non-PFI hospitals such as Queen Mary’s hospital in I urge the House to support the motion and fire a shot Sidcup are effectively squeezed out. The focus is not on across NHS London’s bows. health care, but on finance and those PFI hospitals alone. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike Mr. Lansley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and O’Brien) rose— has a unique perspective in that he sees the problem from both sides of the River Thames. I defer to him Mr. Speaker: Order. Just before I call the Minister to because he is responsible for the care of my parents in move the Government amendment, I simply state—I Hornchurch. think all hon. Members know this—that the longer the It is astonishing that nowhere in the NHS London speeches from the Front Bench, the fewer opportunities document does it say anything about the cost of establishing there will be for those sitting on the Back Benches. To those polyclinics. In constrained financial circumstances, move the amendment in the name of the Government, how absurd is it to spend million pounds shutting down I call the Minister. hospital services only to spend millions more opening new polyclinics, sometimes on the same premises, as at the King George in Ilford? What kind of an absurdity 4.23 pm is that? Mr. O’Brien: I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush) (Lab) rose— “recognises that there are health inequalities, particularly around heart disease, stroke and cancer, to be addressed in London; agrees that there is a need to build stronger organisations which Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab) rose— are clinically and financially sustainable and provide the best service to their local populations; recognises the importance of Mr. Lansley: I will not give way, if the hon. Gentlemen the work by Lord Darzi and over 200 clinicians who undertook will forgive me. Mr. Speaker will not forgive me if I do the Healthcare for London review, which was widely supported not make progress. and consulted on in London; recognises that trusts have worked closely with their local communities to communicate the aims of I have one final point to make. Members from across the programme; further recognises that lives will be saved because London feel a similar way about the proposals, the the NHS in London, supported by public consultation and following assumptions that are being pursued, the lack of evidence, review and scrutiny by local and pan-London Health Overview and the inability of NHS London to justify what it and Scrutiny Committees, has agreed to implement new stroke seems to expect will happen. In their amendment, Ministers and trauma networks surrounding world-leading major trauma centres and hyper-acute stroke units to ensure that patients receive are saying, “Look, don’t worry; it’ll be fine. Nothing high quality and innovative care in centres of excellence, expected will happen until the other services are already there.” to save approximately 500 lives a year; acknowledges that there Ara Darzi said last year that there would sometimes have already been improvements in cardiac outcomes; notes that need to be double-running to enable the plan to be there must be no further changes to accident and emergency or established, but he has gone, and that plan seems to obstetrics departments unless and until improved access to new have disappeared. services is available and that any changes must be subject to full and formal public consultation; and further notes that the Government I must tell Labour Members that the Government’s is preparing robust planning systems to ensure that NHS London amendment is not justified: there is no plan in any of is fully prepared to meet the challenges posed by the London 2012 the sectors to establish services in the community and Olympic Games.”. 171 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 172

[Mr. Mike O’Brien] invest in the Whittington should be overridden. I do not see any justification for closure of the A and E at this In opening, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire time, and I would want to hear the case for closing it (Mr. Lansley) took 24 minutes. [HON.MEMBERS: “Thirty- during the next Parliament. I have seen no such case. four minutes!”] I apologise. Perhaps I was more generous to him than I should have been. I normally take a lot of Mr. Burrowes: Is there any prospect of any change interventions, as the House will know, but I will try to from this Government to the decision to downgrade make some progress today, because I am conscious that Chase Farm hospital’s consultant-led A and E and many hon. Members will want to raise their local concerns maternity services despite more than 100,000 attendances about NHS London. at A and E and more than 3,300 births at the hospital? I had a lot of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s comments on inequalities, and with the motion, which Mr. O’Brien: We are looking with great care at all the is about a number of those. There is common ground various proposals and Chase Farm hospital is the subject on the need to address those inequalities. The difficulty of one of those proposals in London. The issues are is that the motion, and indeed his comments, identify a supposed to be locally driven, locally led and locally series of problems but offer no possible solution. I can determined reconfigurations. The hon. Gentleman and see the opportunist, pre-election attempt to wrong-foot his party seem to think that this is all coming from Labour, but the motion and the speech offer no vision, Whitehall, but that is complete nonsense. These are no new ideas, and frankly no agenda for government. local decisions, locally arrived at. They expose the Conservative party as offering no constructive way forward to address the very problems Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I thank my that the hon. Gentleman and his motion identify. We right hon. and learned Friend for his reply to my hon. know that there are inequalities in stroke provision, and Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury in heart provision. We know that London has worse (Emily Thornberry). The overwhelming case for retention outcomes and greater inequalities than other parts of of the Whittington A and E has been made and continues the country. We know that lives are lost because of the to be made, but we discover that officials from the north current disposition of services. We know that infant central London NHS review are still working on a plan mortality rates in Haringey are three times those in that we believe involves closure of the A and E, and Richmond. We know that life expectancy deteriorates they will not publish that plan for several months. Will by a year for every stop on the Jubilee line from Westminster he ensure that all the plans are published now so that to Canning Town, from 77 down to 70. There is an the public can see what is being thought up by officials? over-reliance on A and E because GP practice in deprived areas in some parts of London is inadequate. But the Mr. Mike O’Brien: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, best that the hon. Gentleman can offer is a vague view I want to return to the various discussions that have that we should leave it up to GPs to solve it through taken place, the minutes and the proposals being circulated. their budgets. He says that GPs should put more money Engaging with clinicians, and how we engage with into services if they want to keep them, on an ad hoc them, is important. basis and without any process. That is an abdication of responsibility. Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD) rose— Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) (Lab): Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that Mr. O’Brien: I will give way to the hon. Lady, but NHS Islington is currently engaged in a so-called pre- then I want to make some progress. consultation about the future of our greatly loved Whittington hospital? That so-called consultation is as Lynne Featherstone: I welcome the Minister’s remarks chaotic and incoherent as it is alarming and wrong. Will because, as he knows, the socio-demographic circumstances he instruct NHS Islington to listen to local MPs and the around Whittington hospital make the area one of the public and dismiss any suggestion that Whittington A most deprived in London. My concern is that, of the and E and maternity unit should close? seven current options, four suggest closing the accident and emergency department. That seems to be a huge Mr. O’Brien: As my hon. Friend knows, I have said in waste of resource and energy when the money is needed a debate on the Floor of the House in December that I in front-line services. Will he talk to north central have concerns about what is happening in relation to London officials now and stop the process, because, as the Whittington. She has fought a strong fight on the the hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) issue and spoken to me about it on several occasions. said, the case has been made for retention of the A and We need to see strong clinical evidence for any change E department? to the status of the Whittington. It is being discussed locally, but the national clinical advisory group will Mr. O’Brien: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but if need to look at any case put forward. It is local now, but she reads my comments just now and listens carefully, we have invested £32 million in the Whittington, much she will realise that, in a sense, I have addressed some of of it in A and E, and unless the case for change is those points already. established, there will be no change. At the moment I am not convinced of the need for the Whittington A Mrs. Villiers rose— and E to close. Those discussing these things need to know that. I have serious concerns about it and I would Mr. O’Brien: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I need want to see a serious clinical case made for saying that to make some progress; many people want to speak in the £32 million that the Government have decided to the debate. 173 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 174

I do not mind the hon. Member for South Mrs. Villiers rose— Cambridgeshire taking the view that he does not like the Darzi process of clinically led, locally driven decisions Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) made through a local process. He can object to that. We (LD) rose— have set out a broad-based approach, and a decision-making process, as a result of a review by clinicians. I do not Mr. O’Brien: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in mind him objecting to that, and he is perfectly at liberty a moment. to do so—it is a matter of debate—but I find it bizarre The NHS changes are difficult, and they do raise that his alternative is no alternative. It is a “Stop the local concerns. If there is a real alternative to what we bus, I want to get off” approach. He is saying, “There are doing—if the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire are lots of inequalities in London, and lots of issues had come up with anything other than saying, “Let the that need to be addressed, but I’m not going to address GPs decide from their funding what they want to keep them because they are in the ‘too difficult’ category.” and what they do not”—then I missed it. He did not For decades, reconfiguring London to deliver better come forward with any such alternative: it is not in his services has been in the “too difficult” category for too motion and it was not in his speech. many Governments. Virginia Bottomley attempted to do it, but got hammered for it, because it was not Let us have a look at the motion. There is a vague call clinically led. As a result, Londoners have put up with a for something called a worse service than many other parts of the country. “public health strategy geared towards the reduction of health Decisions about changing the NHS are difficult, and inequalities”. people are attached to local provision and fear changes. Yes, good—got that. Indeed, Darzi attempts to do just After the Thatcher period, they fear that the agenda is that, but if the hon. Gentleman does not accept the about cutting provision, not about making it better. Darzi process, what will he put in its place? A policy of Going back decades, Governments—Labour and Tory— no-change conservatism is not a serious policy. It does have failed. In 2006, NHS London asked Professor Ara not deal with the inequalities that the hon. Gentleman Darzi—now Lord Darzi—to set out a vision for change set out. People are now dying and getting poor health in London: a process for bottom-up, clinically led treatment because Governments in the past have found improvements, the aim of which was to drive up the the problem too difficult. We are now making some of quality of services, not to make cuts. Because Ara Darzi the changes that are needed. In the face of that, the was an eminent consultant—not a politician or a Conservatives abdicate responsibility, advocate nothing manager—clinicians bought into the process. They accepted to replace the Darzi process and play to public fears. his bona fides and his work to improve provision, and That is what is happening. If they do that in government, they engaged in the difficult process of change. the inequalities that the hon. Gentleman has identified Discussions about possible reconfiguration have taken will remain, because he has no approach to deal with place across London—[Interruption.] Yes, they have, them. All he wants to do is play Pontius Pilate, washing and clinicians are still engaged today, but they will not his hands of the problem and saying, “Well, we wanted be if the Conservatives get in, because they will stop something done—there were real inequalities—but it that process. Clinicians are engaged in a variety of was up to the GPs locally.” meetings—this comes back to a point raised earlier— considering options and discussing them among themselves Simon Hughes: Does the Minister realise that the before making proposals through an iterative process of reason why a lot of people are fearful and suspicious is asking, “What are the best proposals for each area?” that they have recent memories of reorganisations? The This is about clinicians discussing what is best for Tories proposed, and Labour then agreed, to the closure London. of the A and E unit at Guy’s hospital, for example. Those proposals are already out for consultation in Money has been allocated to primary care trusts in north-east London, and elsewhere they are still being deprived areas such as Southwark, but it has then been discussed and weighed up. Local people will be engaged top-sliced and taken away, even though we were meant when there are clear proposals. They will be bottom-up, to need and deserve it. I can tell the Minister that we not Whitehall-led, proposals from the local NHS, not have wards in hospitals across the river from this place, Ministers. That does not mean that it will not be difficult— including in Guy’s, that are absolutely full and the proposals raise concerns—but it means that clinicians overstretched—and not full of “not ill” people, but full concerned about quality services are leading the process. of seriously ill people who need to be in hospital, not The key Darzi components can be summarised as localised treated by their GP. services where possible, and centralised services where it is necessary for patient safety. Mr. O’Brien: It is the case that Government funding That is the process that the Conservative party is for the NHS has, of course, increased massively over the attacking and saying that it would do away with. Its past decade, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. motion identifies the problem in London, but rejects [Interruption.] It has increased, and it is also the case the bottom-up reconfiguration that clinicians say is that London has received substantial amounts of additional needed to save lives. Instead, the Conservatives would funding, and will continue to do so this year and the dump the Darzi process, opportunistically attack every next. We need to ensure that that money is spent in the output from it and every attempt to allow clinicians the best way possible, so that we deliver the best quality of space to discuss what would work, play on the fears of services and deal with the inequalities in London. At local people, and, most damagingly and opportunistically the moment that has to be done by engaging clinicians of all, offer no real process to replace it. in a serious process of looking at what works and at how we can change the services, so that we address Joan Ryan rose— those inequalities effectively. 175 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 176

[Mr. Mike O’Brien] people waited more than 13 weeks for an out-patient appointment. That figure is down from 43,639 when we My concern is about the intellectual hole in the came to power. Opposition’s policy. They would end the process that we The NHS in London has come a long way by having have set up, and although I think that they genuinely more money. Money alone is not enough, but it helps. want to will the end of having to deal with inequalities, This year, the PCTs in London will receive £13.2 billion. I just do not think that they have any means to deliver Next year, they will get £13.9 billion. The hon. Gentleman that—they have not come up with anything, anyway. asked what we got for that money. There are 45,000 Frankly, from what I can see in the speech by the hon. more staff in the London NHS than there were in 1997, Member for South Cambridgeshire, their priority is and I should just mention that there are 3,000 more marginal seats, not saving lives. Their worry is about consultants, 18,000 more nurses, 1,500 more midwives, parliamentary candidates, not stroke victims. If they and 4,000 more doctors in training. I have a long list, offered an alternative, there would be a debate, but how but before I get completely carried away, I shall give way can we debate with someone who offers no alternative to my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North but to return the health of London to the “too difficult” (Joan Ryan). column? That is what the hon. Gentleman is doing: no courage, no leadership, and, most worryingly for a Joan Ryan: The Minister will know that Chase Farm possible alternative Government, no vision for how to hospital is a very good and much-loved, much-needed solve the health problems of London. hospital. The changes to the hospital were decided on Let me explain why we believe that London must before, and outside, the Darzi review. We know that the change and how that can be done. Conservatives have said that they would make no commitments. They are hypocritical in criticising changes Mr. Slaughter: Will my right hon. and learned Friend while making no commitment to do anything different. give way? In the light of the achievement of a 24-hour doctor-led service for 2013, will the Minister agree to meet me to Mr. O’Brien: I will, and then I will make some more discuss further why it is so important to keep an ambulance progress. service at the accident and emergency department at Chase Farm hospital? Mr. Slaughter: My right hon. and learned Friend correctly identifies the fact that the Opposition speech Mr. O’Brien rose— was about politics, not health. There was a certain irony in the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I understand that the (Mr. Lansley) denouncing scaremongering by the Liberal temperature is rising on both sides of the House, but Democrats, but then entertaining every piece of may I advise Members to be aware of their language scaremongering from those on his own Benches, including, and, in particular, of the use of the word “hypocritical”? in relation to north-west London, the complete fabrication that hospitals in the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust will close, which the hon. Member for Hammersmith Mr. O’Brien: I am very happy to meet my right hon. and Fulham (Mr. Hands) used in order to get elected Friend to discuss the ambulance situation and to look five years ago—he said that the hospital was going to at the way in which the services in her area are being close, but it is bigger and better resourced than ever. dealt with. She has spoken to me on many occasions Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that about the issue, and I am familiar with the local there are no plans— circumstances that she faces. She is also right to say that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire can give no Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. real commitments on these issues. After all, if he is Interventions are to be brief. going to rely on the local PCTs—all 31 of them—in London to make decisions locally, and if the only extra Mr. O’Brien: Our former hon. Friend, Keith Bradley, funding is to come from GPs’ budgets, he is not going to found that a campaign was run about a supposed be in a position to make any commitments on anything, hospital closure in Manchester, and he lost his seat. is he? These are potent arguments, and I can see that opportunistic We, on the other hand, are making a commitment to politicians might run scare stories. That is what is being an increase of £700 million at a time of financial done. We are trying to undertake the serious process of restraint. Why? Because Labour prioritises the NHS. addressing some of the very inequalities mentioned in London now has the biggest hospital building programme the motion on which Opposition Members are going to in the history of the NHS, with 28 new schemes worth vote. We have clear proposals for dealing with them, but £1.8 billion already open to patients, and another three, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has no worth £1.2 billion, under construction. The Royal London, such proposals at all. with a £1 billion scheme, serves some of the poorest Eleven out of 32 London boroughs are classified as communities in London. University college hospital’s spearhead areas. They are the most deprived areas with scheme is worth £422 million. King’s college hospital’s the greatest need, and the case for change is clear. is worth £76 million. The scheme at Lewisham hospital Money is not enough, but it certainly helps. Over the is for £72 million, and Guy’s and St. Thomas’s is for past decade, there has been unprecedented extra funding. £50 million. These are massive enhancements from Labour As a result, the number of people waiting more than for London. 26 weeks for in-patient care has fallen from 48,849 in In the community, the NHS local improvement finance 1997 to two in January 2010. That is still two too many, trust scheme has led to 45 new developments in London, but it is a staggering achievement. In January, only three worth £371 million. Gracefield Gardens centre in Streatham, 177 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 178 the Barkantine in Tower Hamlets, which I have visited, public, not by diktat from Whitehall. That is not what the Heart of Hounslow practice, and Alexandra Avenue we are doing, yet the hon. Member for South health and social care centre in Harrow are all shining Cambridgeshire thinks that adopting any strategic view examples of the results of our investment in the health about how to deal with inequalities is diktat. I say that it of our capital. All offer extended opening hours to is simply having a strategy. That is precisely what is patients; all offer a wide range of community services in absent from Conservative policy—any sense of strategy addition to GPs; and all are delivering what patients tell or of moving from many to fewer inequalities. There is us they want the NHS to do for them—local services in nothing. That is an indictment of the Conservatives’ their local area. approach. Today, advances in medicine and technology mean Hundreds of the best clinicians across London are that more and more patients can be treated and cared now working together to transform health care in this for in the area. We need to ensure that the type of care capital by talking through ideas, which this process services people get are those that they need. That means provides the space for them to do. I know that there change. It is not about freezing services in aspic, as the are concerns about the need for more openness in the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire suggests he process. The Liberal Democrats have called for the can do—it takes vision, not the policy of NHS release of all documents, as we heard. Clinicians do do-nothingism. The NHS in London can continue to complain a bit about too much sunlight, however. PCTs do better for the people of London. That is why we have are working with clinicians to identify options for improving set out the Darzi agenda to make some of these changes. services. If some A and E services close, it will be Across the city, the NHS is looking at how best to because clinicians on the ground deem it in the best implement this programme for improving the health interests of patients—and never before the alternative and lives of Londoners. It is already concentrating services are up and running. Those alternatives have to specialist care in centres of excellence. Londoners who be there and they have to be better before any change suffer heart attacks are now taken straight to the specialist happens. Any changes will always be consulted on prior care they need in one of eight heart attack centres, to implementation and the results of that consultation significantly improving their chances of recovery. Creating will be independently evaluated wherever there is a that was not easy; it took tough decisions. If we had left legitimate challenge. it to local PCTs, we would not have had a process. It is because we created the Darzi process that changes were Mr. Duncan Smith rose— made, addressing local fears rather than stoking them up for votes. Mr. O’Brien: Before I end my speech—I think it is time that I did—let me give way to the right hon. Last year, a joint committee of all PCTs in London Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan agreed to new stroke and trauma networks based on Smith), because I promised to do so. that model, which will save hundreds of lives. That was fully endorsed by a joint overview and scrutiny committee Mr. Duncan Smith: I am grateful to the Minister for of all 32 London boroughs, including the Conservative giving way. This is not a party-political point: I believe authorities. London’s PCTs have invested £20 million in that Members on both sides of the House agree with it. improving stroke care. In the coming months, eight new The fact is that, currently, decisions are being made and hyper-acute stroke units will open and standards will be then driven through on the ground by officials who are up to the best in the world. determined to hide much of that process from Members We are in the process of creating in London a world-class of Parliament and the public. There is a good example NHS, whereas the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire of that in my area. has a “do-nothing” view of the NHS, which will change Whipps Cross University hospital bid for the stroke little or nothing. We also have three new trauma centres, and trauma centre, having a good stroke centre itself. It which will be open by April, and that of St. Mary’s is to was told that one of the two centres in our area had open in October. been awarded to the Royal London hospital because it Ten new polyclinics are open, all of which are receiving was close to cardiac services, while the other had gone excellent feedback from patients. An evaluation project to Queen’s hospital, not, suddenly, because of the availability is under way to ensure that the local NHS learns lessons of cardiac services—Queen’s does not have any—but so that the model of care can be improved and rolled for reasons connected with neurological services. Then out across the capital. By the end of the next financial it was told that in any event it would not have been able year, another 20 will be in place. Following Lord Darzi’s to complete the process in the time available. When we review, the challenge for local areas is to improve services checked, we found that Queen’s could not have completed in the most appropriate way for their communities. on time either, but had been allowed extra time. In other words, the decision was made long in advance that Mr. Duncan Smith rose— Whipps Cross would not be given the centre, but as those who had made the decision could not say that, they went through a rigmarole of consultation that was Mr. O’Brien: If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive an utter nonsense. me, I have said that others want to speak. I want to make progress as I need to get through my argument. Mr. O’Brien: The right hon. Gentleman wants to be After that, I may give way to him. non-party-political, so let me be non-party-political as This Government are committed to empowering people well. We need to ensure that the process is clinically led to make those local decisions. We believe that decisions and locally decided— about how to provide local health care should be led by local clinicians in collaboration with patients and the Mr. Duncan Smith: It was not clinically led. 179 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 180

Mr. O’Brien: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has stop shouting at me from a sedentary position and moved a motion on which the House will vote. I give listen to what I am saying. As a former leader of his him credit for knowing the NHS well, but that is why I party, he does himself no service by reacting in that way. am so concerned with the motion’s vacuity. He accepted I am trying to respond to a genuine question in a stroke reconfiguration in Cambridgeshire because he genuine way. Let the vibrations settle a bit, eh? knew that it was necessary and it was clinically led. The It is important for the Darzi process to be led by local indictment of him is that he knows that the Darzi clinicians and not driven by managers following a purely review is right but it is politically difficult. It requires financial agenda. [Interruption.] Will the right hon. courage to change London’s NHS and save lives, and Gentleman calm down and let me finish? If he does for there to be a credible alternative Government, there that, I will even let him intervene again. needs to be an Opposition party that comes up with a credible alternative if it criticises Darzi. Change is always We need to ensure that the process is driven by difficult, but across the country the hon. Gentleman has clinicians and not by finances. Finances are an important not opted for the process of improving the NHS; he has consideration, but the No. 1 priority in the health taken the opportunist line. service must be patients’ safety and the quality of care given to patients, particularly in a place like London in Let us examine where we have made changes. The which there are massive inequalities. Then we need to hon. Gentleman knows well that the NHS in Calderdale ensure that the process is delivered within a budget. and Huddersfield has reconfigured its maternity services That should be the order of priorities. Managers need and is giving mothers and babies safer care, but his to be aware of that, and they also need to be aware that party would reverse that. In Manchester, the reorganisation it is the views of clinicians that we will consider when of paediatric services is giving children safer, better we have to examine any proposals that are submitted. care, but it appears that his party wants to overturn it. We will have them nationally examined by clinicians to In Birmingham and Sandwell, the new hospital would ensure that the right clinical judgment is made. If local not be there and patients would not be getting safer, decision making and the budgets of GPs determine better care without change, but his party opposes change whether or not something happens, there will be no such in that area. overview of whether developments are clinically driven. Change is difficult: it requires courage and judgement. In each of the cases I mentioned the Government have Mr. Duncan Smith: The only reason I gave that example made the judgment and have made the change. We have was that it was clear that a decision had already been had the courage to lead. We have created a bottom-up made, and that those who had made the decision had process that saves lives. The hon. Gentleman is committed simply gone through a process of changing the criteria to reversing that for the sake of political expediency, throughout. The point that we are all making is that thus sacrificing patients for marginal seats. The clinicians none of this is being done other than completely in wanted change to save lives and improve the quality of secret. The process must be opened up to clarity in care. He wanted votes, and he seeks to obtain them by order for proper consultation to be possible. scaring people into a conservative view on opposing change. Mr. O’Brien: I agree that the process needs to become I do not deny that it is easy to scare people and that much more open. Darzi said very clearly that people did seats can be won in that way—that has been done—but not need to be treated in hospital unless that was leaders do not do that. People who care about the NHS absolutely necessary, and that they should be treated as do not do that. We have not done that; we have made close to home as possible. When it comes to working the change, we are improving the NHS and as a result of out how that should be done, clinicians should be at the those changes we are going to be saving lives that will, if heart of decision making. That is what is happening this process is stopped, be put at risk. We are prepared across the city. Change is coming. The NHS must invest to make the change; the Conservatives are not the more in preventive care, rather than waiting until people change. become unwell. The money needs to be identified. The NHS must give the best possible treatment to those who 4.57 pm are very ill, concentrating specialist expertise in centres of excellence. That is what we want to be delivered. Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): The Liberal Democrats welcome this debate on an incredibly important Tom Brake: Will the Minister give way? issue for the people of London. However, it is fair to say that the Conservative motion does not really achieve Mr. O’Brien: I will, but then I must end my speech. very much, because all it calls for, in effect, is a delay in the reconfiguration process until there has been more Tom Brake: The Minister has talked of his vision. I effective public consultation. [Interruption.] Well, that know that part of his vision for London is the Better is exactly what the motion says. We have not even got to Healthcare Closer to Home programme. We are expecting the point where the public consultation is built into the an announcement from the Treasury confirming that process, because we are told that that is due to take the programme can go ahead. Is the Minister in a place this autumn. Our criticism of the process is much position to tell us that it has been given the green light? more fundamental than that.

Mr. Mike O’Brien: I think we are still on an amber Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): Will light. I am still very hopeful that a green light may well the hon. Gentleman give way? at some point be able to be flashed on. However, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any firm commitment Norman Lamb: Not quite yet. I am only 30 seconds just yet, but he has made representations to me. into my speech. 181 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 182

Our criticism is of the way in which the NHS makes kept anonymous. He does not give his name, because he decisions and the fact that they are taken by bodies fears that his job would be threatened that are completely unaccountable to the people they “were I to be linked to sending you this material”. serve. The Minister made two assertions in his speech. What an indictment it is of the NHS under this Government The first was that these decisions are local decisions. that people fear for their jobs if they speak out and Who are these local decisions taken by? They are taken reveal to the public what is going on behind closed by people who have no legitimacy; they have been doors. He says in that e-mail that there has been produced appointed nationally, so there is no accountability to in north-west London the communities— “a long list of fantastical figures about the number of outpatient appointments, emergency admissions and diagnostics to be moved Clive Efford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? out of hospital and into ‘polysystems’ in the community. The idea is to move 55 per cent. of everything, even though the infrastructure Norman Lamb: I shall in a moment, but let me finish and ability of the NHS outside the hospital to cope is not my point. There is no accountability to the communities credible.” that they serve. He goes on to talk about how the acute commissioning The Minister’s second assertion was that the whole vehicle has emasculated the primary care trusts—the process is clinically driven, but we know that that simply bodies that are supposed to be there under this Government is not the case. I wish to refer to an anonymous e-mail to determine health care for their local communities. that I received from someone who describes himself as They have been emasculated by this new body that is “a (traditionally Labour voting) commissioner working in the imposing its decisions on the local area. Clinicians have sector” been kept in the dark and feel completely excluded from in north-west London. He refers to the fact that the the process in many cases. clinicians have been Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s “either left in the dark or openly hostile”. Bush) (Lab): The picture that the hon. Gentleman is This is a process that is “clinically led”, but very much painting comes from tittle-tattle and innuendo. I represent the opposite is in fact the case. The process almost a seat that is covered by the north-west London sector, seems designed to alienate the public and the clinicians and the picture that he paints bears no resemblance to who are desperately trying to provide services. My hon. the truth on the ground. All that people have seen for Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) the past five years has been an improvement in the has referred to conversations that he has had with local quality of their health services, whether at a polyclinic clinicians who are deeply frustrated by what is going on. level, a tertiary level or in the three hospitals that make They may have been involved in the process, but they do up the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust. He not want it and they are not leading it in any sense of ought to pay some tribute to the work that is going on that word. in the health service in those areas instead of simply spreading despondency on the basis of rumour. Mr. Pelling: I want to congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on opening up the debate by having Norman Lamb: The hon. Gentleman refers to the the courage to talk about this matter publicly. Is it not views of a commissioner from north-west London as right that such a debate should take place during a tittle-tattle and innuendo. I shall tell him a bit more of general election, and not be postponed by the Conservative what that commissioner says: party or Labour party until afterwards, when patients’ “The result is ever increasing centralisation, and clandestine influence will be minimised? plans for the complete closure/downgrading of sites such as Ealing Hospital, West Middlesex Hospital and others.” Norman Lamb: The hon. Gentleman makes absolutely The acute commissioning vehicle the right point. It would be scandalous if any of the “are telling us that there will be only 2 major hospital sites left in related papers were kept secret until after the general NW London, with threats to move all specialist services from election. There almost seems to be a conspiracy of others such as C&W Hospital, Central Middlesex, Charing Cross, silence to prevent the public from knowing the real facts Mount Vernon, Hammersmith, Hillingdon and possibly Royal until after the general election. Brompton and Royal Marsden.” That is the view on the ground from a commissioner The process seems designed to destroy confidence working in the NHS in north-west London. The hon. and to engender suspicion about motives. We know that Gentleman might not have received the leak, but that the real pressure comes from the financial crisis faced is the view the commissioner has expressed from the by the NHS, which is in large part due to the way in coal face. which money has been spent by this Government within the NHS. I shall come on to one of the particular Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman surely cannot base reasons for that—PFI, which was mentioned a while his argument entirely on one anonymous e-mail that he ago by an hon. Member on the Conservative Back-Benches. claims to be a leak. We have all had concerns about the An opinion piece in The Guardian on 3 March stated proposals in south-east London, but they were put that forward in the autumn of 2007 as a result of a conference “proper discussion about the future of vital public services is held by clinicians—doctors, nurses and midwives. They being stifled because profound changes—in London and beyond—are came up with them and it was on that basis that NHS accompanied by secrecy, obfuscation, double-speak and concealment London decided to move forward on the proposals, by the NHS at almost every turn.” which were also reviewed by Professor Alberti on a There is a culture of fear—people fear the consequences clinical basis. On what does the hon. Gentleman base of speaking out. That Labour-voting commissioner his argument that the proposals have nothing to do with from north-west London writes that he wants his e-mail local practitioners or local decision making? 183 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 184

Norman Lamb: I have expressed the view from north-west Kramer) rightly decided to inform the public of what London, but we have heard other stories from north-east they have been told and about draft reports that they and south-west London, and I shall come to those in have seen regarding threats to their local hospital, but due course. the Conservative shadow Minister, the hon. Member The origin of all this was a report that NHS London for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), accused them, commissioned from McKinsey’s, which has remained a in an Adjournment debate, of scaring the public. The secret to this day. Surely there can be absolutely no Conservative view seems to be that these issues are best justification for that. The Minister has said that this process kept secret and that they should not be revealed to the should be more open, so will he commit to publishing public until after the general election, which is outrageous. that report? I give him the opportunity to intervene. I applaud my hon. Friends for having had the guts to Will he publish it today? That is what people want. put that information into the public domain so that the public can know what threats exist. Mr. Mike O’Brien: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman The threat is real. I have a copy of a draft report for that invitation, but I have not seen the McKinsey entitled “Presentation to NHS Kingston Joint Board report to which he refers. It has not landed on my desk and PEC meeting”, which confirms that one in three of and I have not got— its 18 options would involve the closure of Kingston hospital’s maternity unit, accident and emergency unit Norman Lamb: Do you think it should be published? and paediatric in-patient department. Sixteen of the 18 options would see Kingston lose a significant service Mr. O’Brien: Well, no; it is not mine to publish. I from that hospital. My hon. Friends deserve an apology cannot commit to publishing— from members of the Conservative Front-Bench team and local Conservative campaigners. They have been Norman Lamb: But do you think it should be published? accused of scaremongering, when the matter is in black and white. Mr. O’Brien: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am being Interestingly, the report ends with a note saying that heckled from a sedentary position by the hon. Gentleman it should be sent to NHS London but not published. who has allowed me to intervene on him. Perhaps if I My hon. Friends have got it into the public domain, and give the floor back to him, he can heckle me a little they made the right judgment in doing so. These are more. decisions of which the public should be fully aware.

Norman Lamb: I do not know what to take from that. Mr. O’Brien: I am a little confused by the point that I do not know whether the Minister believes that the the hon. Gentleman is making. He referred to the hon. report should be published. It might not be his to Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), who publish, but he could at least indicate to NHS London was busily telling us about these changes on his website that the Minister with responsibility for this sphere on 5 October. Having talked about how good it was that believes that it should publish the report. That would be public meetings were being held, he concluded by saying: very helpful. Is he willing to do that? “For my part, I’m excited about what I’ve heard. I’ve been critical of the local NHS in the past, but this time the ideas look Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for good.” again inviting me to respond. I do not know what is in the report in the sense that I have not read it. I do not Norman Lamb rose— have a copy, so this is a matter for NHS London to deal with, but I am sure that Ruth Carnall, the chief executive, Mr. Davey: Will my hon. Friend give way? will have heard his comments. I am not going to order her to publish it, no, but I shall ask her about it. Norman Lamb: I am very happy to.

Norman Lamb: I am pleased that the Minister will at Mr. Davey: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, as I least ask her about the report, because, as he said want to explain to the Minister what I was talking earlier, this process should be open, but it is certainly far about on the website. I was talking about proposals for from that. These are our local health services and our polysystems, and about the fact that Kingston NHS taxes that are being spent, so we deserve to know what was building a polyclinic at Surbiton hospital. My is being planned behind closed doors. We demand support for that polyclinic remains, and I also supported disclosure. the changes to stroke and cardiac services that came We presume that the Conservatives know about the from NHS London. What we oppose are these secret report because one of their parliamentary candidates changes, with one option in three proposing that our works in McKinsey’s health team, so they are presumably local hospital should lose its A and E, maternity and party to it. Meanwhile, the public and clinicians are in-patient paediatric services. The fact that the Minister kept in the dark. I ask the Government to commit to does not understand that does him no favours. bringing into the public domain, before the general election, the processes that are taking place around the Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. A great many people country, in every strategic health authority, so that wish to contribute to the debate, so I would ask that people can cast their vote in the full knowledge of what interventions please be as they should be—brief. is being planned behind the scenes. Those who reveal plans to the public are accused of Norman Lamb: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy scaremongering. My hon. Friends the Members for Speaker, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Kingston and Surbiton and for Richmond Park (Susan explanation. 185 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 186

I was referring to the proposals for north-east London, There should be a recognition that the process is which emerged only because my hon. Friend the Member flawed. Consultation, despite the Conservatives’ apparent for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) faith in it, will not satisfy the public of London because received a leaked letter from a clinician in the system. all too often, as the right hon. Member for Chingford Again, the letter demonstrated what was going on but and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) suggested, was kept from the public. It set out options, including consultation is seen—rightly, in many cases—to be a the potential loss of A and E and maternity services at fait accompli, a rubber-stamping exercise. As the report the Whittington hospital. The hospital is much loved from south-west London confirms in one of the charts and needed, and it serves one of the poorest communities that it contains, the final stage is consultation and in the country. The area has one of the lowest rates implementation, as if consultation is a box that must be of car ownership in the country, yet it is proposed that ticked before implementation of the changes that have those services should be lost. Again, my hon. Friend was already been determined. right to get the matter into the public domain so that We have surely tested to destruction the model that people can make their own judgments on the proposals. seeks to impose change decided by unaccountable bodies. The belief, certainly in north-east London, is that the We have the bizarre spectacle now of Labour Ministers proposals are not evidence- based, and that wrong leading protest marches against closures in their own assumptions have been made about the potential impact local area. Instead, let us start by achieving savings in of the loss of an A and E department at the Whittington the NHS by slimming down the central bureaucracy, hospital. People believe that conclusions are being drawn which has become overblown and entirely out of control that do not stand up to analysis. under this Government, with 25,000 people working for I turn now to the private finance initiative, which has NHS quangos at a cost of £1.2 billion a year. Let us imposed an enormous burden on the NHS in London. reform the way that money is used in the NHS to manage those with chronic conditions much more effectively Mr. Duncan Smith: The hon. Gentleman is talking than we do at present, avoiding the crisis admissions to about north-east London, but a year and a half or two hospital which are so costly to the NHS and so disruptive years ago Professor Alberti was called in to have a look to patients and their care. at the process whereby the various PCTs in the area were going about the business of change. He was highly Let us provide better incentives to prevent ill health critical of the secrecy involved, and of the trusts’ failure in the first place. Critically, let us make primary care to tell the public exactly what was going on. The idea trusts democratically accountable to the people they that the problems were driven by clinicians is absolutely serve. These are services that we all use, and those not true. bodies that make decisions should be accountable to us. It is instructive that two former Secretaries of State Norman Lamb: I am very grateful to the right hon. from the present Government now support the case for Gentleman for that intervention. It appears that the democratic accountability in the decisions relating to PCTs have learned nothing from George Alberti’s the commissioning of health services. Decisions about intervention a year ago, as the same secrecy continues local services should be reached in as open a way as to pervade the entire process. possible by democratically accountable bodies. As I was saying, I shall deal now with PFI. There Chris Ham, who will take over as head of the King’s have been 20 PFI schemes providing new facilities in Fund, has cited the process in Sweden, where there are London at a cost of £2.6 billion, but the repayments democratically accountable bodies responsible for health over the lifetime of those facilities will come to a care. In Sweden they go about decisions in a collaborative staggering total of £16.7 billion. Those repayments way, involving the public not after the decisions have have not been properly budgeted for, but they will been taken, but at the start of the process, so that bankrupt the NHS and in a sense drive the changes that everybody understands the financial constraints that we we are debating today. all accept are there, involving the clinicians and reaching This year, PFI payments will amount to £250 million decisions together, rather than imposing them from on in London alone. By 2014, that will have risen to high. £400 million per year. That is forcing up overhead costs on trusts and squeezing the resources of other health services. It is also, as the hon. Member for Hornchurch Jeremy Corbyn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? (James Brokenshire) said, distorting decision making about service changes. Norman Lamb: No. The proposals appear not to have taken sufficiently into account the pressure of rising case loads in London. We want to be able to hold those organisations to Many London hospitals find that acute bed occupancy account. Until that happens, we will oppose cuts in rates are approaching 100 per cent. In other words, local services imposed on local communities by people throughout the year they are virtually entirely full. The who have no democratic accountability. BMA says that the 3.7 million attendances at accident and emergency departments reflect high levels of mobility Several hon. Members rose— and temporary residents often unregistered with GPs, who choose to go to their local A and E department because they have nowhere else to go. As the proposals Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Speaker has are put forward, there is nothing else in place to reassure imposed an eight-minute time limit on Back-Bench the public. It is dangerous to make assumptions about contributions, but in view of the amount of time that the ability to cut numbers going to hospital before new has already been taken, after the first two Back-Bench arrangements and facilities are put in place. contributions the time limit will be reduced to six minutes. 187 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 188

5.19 pm estimates that between only 10 and 30 per cent. of the people who currently attend A and E could be properly Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) (Lab): I attended to at one of the devolved clinics, as we might find it very unconvincing when I hear a Tory Front describe them. However, up to now the basis of the Bencher speaking in favour of reducing health inequalities. Darzi report has been that between 50 and 60 per cent. When we came to power in 1997, each part of the of people could be safely dealt with at such clinics, and country was supposed to be allocated health service I do not agree. I am simply not convinced. funds that reflected the size, nature and health of their population, but the east end of London was getting The whole basis of the concentration of stroke provision 23 per cent. less than it was entitled to, and surprise, and major trauma provision, which I strongly support, surprise, Tory Surrey was getting 23 per cent. more than is that practice makes perfect, but apparently practice it was entitled to. That is entirely typical of what the does not make perfect in A and E any more, because the Tories have always done. people who have a lot of practice at a large A and E will be substituted by people who have a lot less practice at In my constituency, investment under the Labour clinics in the community. So the closure does not make Government has been quite dramatic. We have the new sense in terms of the practicalities or, indeed, the money. University College hospital, which I freely admit got under way when I was Health Secretary; and we have The idea that there was widespread, successful also had big improvements at the Royal Free hospital, consultation of Londoners over the whole Darzi thing which serves my area, and at Great Ormond Street is really preposterous. About 1,800 Londoners—and hospital, which serves children from across the country. there are rather a lot of us—expressed support for We have new health centres, with two in Kentish Town the Darzi proposition, and about 1,700 said that they and one that has just reopened in Gospel Oak; most GP did not want it, so the view was far from unanimous premises have been improved; and the survival rates and even among those who were consulted. I find that general performance in our area have massively improved outcome about as convincing as Lord Ashcroft’s because the buildings and equipment have at long last protestations about his tax status, and we all know what started to match the excellence of the staff. that indicated. As part of that, there has been a lot of investment in Unfortunately, these aspects are bringing into disrepute the Whittington hospital. I can remember, when I was a great deal of the achievements that the Government in opposition, going to the Whittington and pledging have brought about in the years that we have been in all sorts of things. As I believe in keeping pledges, those office. At the meeting I went to, when we had to listen to pledges have been kept, and a lot of extra money has the burblings of some of the people who are proposing been invested in the Whittington. I could not get firm what is happening at the Whittington, nothing much figures from the hospital today, but as I understand it was said about improving clinical performance; it was £27 million was invested in the new accident and emergency all about saying, “Oh, we think we’re going to be department, so my hon. Friends and I find it slightly £500 million down.” When they were pressed to explain bizarre—to say the least—that nameless, faceless people how that was going to happen, they could not come up have suddenly appeared on the scene and decided to with any satisfactory explanation. I can only assume recommend that the A and E department, in which all that they are absolutely convinced that there will be that money has been invested, no longer function, and a Tory Government and that there will therefore be a that instead people be diverted to the Royal Free and £500 million-a-year reduction in the money that is University College hospitals. available, because they could not possibly conclude that I checked this morning at University College hospital. from anything that the Labour Government have been It was designed for 60,000 A and E attendees, and it committed to. now has knocking on for 90,000, so Lord only knows We need to look at the functions of NHS London. It where the 90,000 people who use the Whittington will is NHS London, not NHRS London: it is there to help go. Apparently, the explanation is that many would go clinicians in London to improve the services, not to be a to clinics—new health centres—in Islington. The only national health reorganisation service for London. A trouble is that they have not been built, and it will cost lot more attention needs to be paid to what local people money to build them. So if the closure is being undertaken want. to save money, it is utterly stupid because it will involve In talking about A and E, I come back to the thing spending money to substitute for the money that has that I have been obsessed with for all the time that I already been spent at the Whittington. have had an interest in this issue, and that goes back a very long way—if we want to make A and E departments Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Highgate) (Lab): more successful, let us put some GPs in there to deal The issue is not only the waste of money, because the with the folks who choose to turn up. People do not Whittington A and E rumours, which are rife in our want to be told, even by clinicians, that they should not part of the world, are having a serious knock-on effect turn up at their local hospital. If they want to turn up on the hospital in my half of the borough of Camden, for GP services, as well as strictly A and E provision, namely the Royal Free, and that is producing anxiety that should be fine by us, and it would be a proper among not only patients but staff. Surely we have not response to the situation that we face. invested all that money in the national health service and its staff suddenly to make them feel that they are no I strongly welcome what the Minister said about longer wanted or useful. It must be having an effect on being far from convinced of the merits of the closure of their contribution now. the A and E at Whittington hospital. One has to be careful what one says when one is a Minister, and what Frank Dobson: As ever, I agree with my hon. Friend he said far from overstates the reaction of most people and good friend. The report that was produced on in the area and, according to all my sources, the reaction behalf of the primary care trust last week shows how it of most of the clinicians who are working at the Whittington 189 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 190 and want to continue to do so. I welcome what he said, As I have indicated, this year’s target for the operating and I think he had better press on with it. We cannot deficit will almost certainly not be met. That is a problem, leave this to bureaucrats. It is no good leaving things to because with generous help from the other parts of bureaucrats, because when they get it wrong, they do London, there is a window of opportunity for the not have to stand at the Dispatch Box to explain. South London Healthcare NHS Trust to pay off its Ministers have to do that, so Ministers should take deficit, if it meets its operating targets. It seems as responsibility right the way through. The people who though that may not happen, and the crisis that we face take the decisions should carry the can, and the people in south-east London will therefore be even greater a who carry the can should take the decisions. year from now. As far as I am concerned, there has been no real 5.28 pm improvement in the trust’s performance for patients Mr. John Horam (Orpington) (Con): I never thought since its inception. As Members know, it currently has a that I would stand up in the House and agree with the norovirus problem that has meant the shutdown of right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank many wards and waiting lists rising. That is a difficulty Dobson), particularly on health matters, but he made a that many hospitals have had to face, but nevertheless very important point in his criticism of the Darzi proposals. I do not see any improvements in performance. Having spent millions of pounds on new hospitals in The origins of all that are quite clear. First, the London, the Government now want to make a radical Government have thrown money at the NHS in London, change in favour of treating a huge proportion of the as elsewhere, with no idea of reform. The hon. Member people who currently go to the accident and emergency for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) mentioned PFI, departments of those hospitals in polyclinics, which and he gave the overall statistics for London. In my area have not yet been built and which they propose to build we have two hospitals, which now form part of the during a period of financial difficulty. It is mad to South London Healthcare NHS Trust. The construction behave in that way. It is in the same category as the cost of the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Woolwich was Government’s deciding to pay GPs a lot more to do less, £96 million, but the taxpayer will have to repay £799 million. and then having to pay them even more to do the things The new Princess Royal university hospital in Bromley that they were originally supposed to do. All these will cost £118 million to construct, and the taxpayer will financial and medical decisions by the Government repay £780 million—seven times the construction cost. seem to come from Alice in Wonderland. As Lord Warner, a former Minister in the Labour I doubt whether one could find a worse example of Government, has said, the NHS received more money what is wrong with the NHS in London than in looking than it knew what to do with. at my own corner of the city—south-east London. Another problem has been top-down political There, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and management. Civitas, the consultancy, has said that Chislehurst (Robert Neill) has pointed out, we have the market reforms have not worked as they should have South London Healthcare NHS Trust, which was a done, because Whitehall is still exercising too much shotgun marriage between three hospital trusts that had control. We have had endless and changing targets and severe financial problems. It was set up with an accumulated endless changes in management. For a period of two or deficit of £200 million, and was given an operating three years, the managing director of the Princess Royal target for this year of a deficit of £29.7 million. Since we university hospital was being changed every six months are near the end of the current financial year, that at considerable cost. Nobody ever gets sacked at the top means that the accumulated deficit is now well over level of the NHS. It is astonishing how people appear to £200 million. perform badly and are removed, but then appear somewhere To be fair to the Government, a new management else in the NHS. No one ever suffers the consequences structure was put in place with the creation of the new of poor performance. trust a year ago. Some members of the Government Finally, weak structures are part of the problem. have accused the Conservatives of scaremongering, but Commissioning has not been valued as much as it I have not done so about the management of the new should have been, and in many ways, as has already trust. Although criticisms by consultants, patients and been said, it has been emasculated. Lord Warner—I voluntary organisations, such as the local involvement quote from an article in The Guardian—has said: network, have come my way, I said to myself that I “We had 300 PCTs to begin with. That was insanity…The first would hold back from criticising the management publicly. thing I did was to cut them down to 150. But I wanted to go One should be a responsible Member of Parliament further and cut the number to 50 or 60.” and recognise that the management of any such huge He said, as The Guardian put it, organisation need time to bed down. However, the fact “that he was thwarted by the Labour backbenches, who feared is that we have now had 12 months and the results are they would lose vital services from their constituencies.” extremely disappointing, as the hon. Member for Eltham What is the answer? Briefly, the Government must (Clive Efford) may well agree. cease micro-managing. Instead, we need to create It is worrying, for example, that the operations director opportunities for individuals and companies inside and has already gone by mutual agreement. I now understand outside the NHS to come up with more effective solutions, that the financial director is also going by mutual and for the Government to act simply as a regulator. We agreement, although I have not been able to check that. need fewer targets and quangos; we need commissioning A new operations director is being put in directly from to be more professional; we need to encourage a diversity the Department of Health. As a former Health Minister, of providers and for groups of professionals, private I know that means that the Department is worried charities and so forth to be brought into play; and we about the new trust. There are clearly problems in its need more competition. I suspect that efficiency and management. better patient care will go together. 191 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 192

[Mr. John Horam] are—are being regularly consulted on the future configuration of health care across north London, and The tragedy is that all those things were under way they appear to have decided that the most important when the Conservatives were in charge of the health hospitals are University College hospital and the North service, when we made the split between provider and Middlesex, and that they will therefore downgrade or purchaser. That was the opportunity for those sorts of reduce everything else. I find that repugnant and wrong. reform. The Government, including the right hon. Member When news of those proposals leaked out to us, I for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson), with called two public meetings in my constituency. Three whom I might disagree on this, set back the whole hundred people attended the first, and 350 the second, process of reform. It is a tragedy that 13 years have been which does not include those who could not get in largely wasted. because the room was so full. We held a march and demonstration through Islington, and 5,000 people Several hon. Members rose— attended. They were not subject to scaremongering: Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I they were there to show their support for their national remind hon. Members that the time limit is now reduced health service, their local hospital and its A and E to six minutes. department. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury, my right hon. Friends the Members 5.36 pm for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) and for Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I am delighted Tottenham (Mr. Lammy) and the hon. Member for that we are having this debate and to have the opportunity Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) and I to put my views on the NHS in London on the record. were all there, as was every political party from the Revolutionary Communist party to the Conservative I represent Islington, North, and most hon. Members party. Opinion was unanimous in support for that casualty who have contributed so far have mentioned the unit. I know that the Minister has heard us and understands Whittington hospital in my constituency, as I will in a what we are saying about this. moment. However, the core of the debate is the question of the accountability of the NHS and how it operates. As a result of the march, I received a letter from the In London, the background is the Darzi report. Behind chief executive of NHS London, essentially telling me that, there are a series of associations—in my case, five that I should not be so concerned. I read her letter with north London boroughs have decided, as my right hon. great care and was left even more concerned, because Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank she talked about opening a hub at the Whittington Dobson) has pointed out, that they must cut £500 million hospital for north Islington, called a polysystem. I am from their budget in the next five years. I keep asking not against GP-led health centres or improving primary where that figure comes from, but nobody can tell me. care facilities. On the contrary, I am in favour of effective, They say, “Well, it’s a possibility,” to which I ask, “A efficient local GPs, but we should not close A and E possibility of what, from where, by whom?” to which departments. Casualty unit attendance figures in the they reply, “We have to think to the future.” north London area were 695,000 last year, of which 86,000 were at the Whittington. Do not close casualty We all have to think to the future, but I do so in terms units and do not cut our hospitals, and instead recognise of improving health care throughout my constituency, that we conquer ill health and inequality by investment, north London and the rest of our capital city. I pay not by cuts and closure. We conquer them by access, not tribute to my right hon. Friend. When he was Health by making services more complicated and less accessible. Secretary, he not only ensured large-scale investment in major hospital facilities, GP practices and all the rest of it, but put into operation the Black report, which was 5.41 pm hidden by an earlier Conservative Government, and Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): I welcome the tackled health inequalities through health action zones opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Islington, and public health campaigns. There has been an North (Jeremy Corbyn). I, too, received an e-mail from improvement: life expectancy is greater; infant mortality a commissioner, which contained the worrying words: and child obesity are lower; and a number of other “Targets and centralisation have driven morale to an all-time things have improved. low, with money wasted and no flexibility to be innovative or We have a long way to go, as everyone should be well unique.” aware. The population is increasing, and desperate I go to regular meetings on this issue with my two inequalities still exist, as does very bad housing, so we colleagues from the other Hillingdon constituencies, need investment in health care across the piece. We do and the terminology that we hear worries me. There is not need senior officials who lead shadowy existences to talk of turnover, margins and targets, which are of decide that in the long run, there must be a cut in health more use in the retail sector. expenditure through our part of north London. My A secret operation has been going on. The Minister plea is on behalf of an awful lot of people who rely said that it was clinician-led, but I have a copy of a desperately on local health services and facilities, who letter sent by the deputy director of service transformation do not have the alternative of private medicine—for at NHS London to the sector chief executive of north-west them, it is the NHS or nothing, so we need the NHS to London. I have not got time to read much from it, but be the very best. some of it should strike terror into our hearts, because Most speakers today, including my right hon. Friend, it shows that the proposals are not about clinical decisions. mentioned the future configuration of local A and E It states: facilities across north London. As has been said, a “Overall, there is a considerable amount of work to be done to proposal is lurking somewhere in the background of produce a high-quality strategic plan for transforming services in this debate. Eighty people—I do not know who they NWL, one that captures priority actions to be taken, by whom 193 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 194 and by when. You should work with your PCT chief executive I know Hillingdon hospital. I was first a customer colleagues to ensure the PCTs’ contributions to delivering the there in 1967, and my family and I have been using it strategy for NWL are clear and coherent and that their plans are since then. It is doing an excellent job. It has never had a properly aligned, where necessary, with yours. Youare accountable particular golden age. In 1967, I had to wait a very long for ensuring that the NWL Sector exhibits the right leadership to ensure that NWL’s strategic plan is robust, to ensure the delivery time to have my wrist reset, because there had been a of Healthcare for London at the pace that the changed economic major accident. However, David McVittie, at Hillingdon context now demands. We are confident you have the right hospital, has been putting a lot of time and investment governance structure in place to make this happen.” into ensuring that services are improving. We had hoped Those words mean, “Make sure you get it right, like that a new hospital would be built—it was talked about—on we’ve told you to do. These are the plans we want.” the RAF Uxbridge site. That dream has disappeared. We hoped then that Hillingdon hospital itself would be The letter continues: improved—that was talked about, too—but that idea “Turning to your proposals for Local Hospitals and Elective seems to have gone now. There is also talk about having Centres, there is no reference to the numbers you believe to be sustainable across the sector. I know that you have a programme one polyclinic in each area, but where they might be has in place for reviewing all hospital care settings and the plan only been talked about. What about the people who do should, at least, signal the likelihood that not all the current sites not have to go to A and E? There is nowhere for them will make the transition to either MAH or Local Hospital.” to go. I could go on, but I do not have the time. We want the health centre in Yiewsley up and running. The Government have undoubtedly put money into We have just proposed the move of a health centre from the NHS, but where has it gone? Like the hon. Member the green at West Drayton. I could go on about mental for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), I think that it has health services in London. While we are talking about gone into the new structures and bureaucracy and not our own hospitals, we should be talking about mental necessarily where people expect it to be. The NHS has health services. Twenty one per cent. of NHS mental become like a huge sponge, with water being poured in, health beds in London have been lost over the past four the money being poured out, and only drips coming years. My message to the NHS and the Minister is stop down. fiddling around with the systems and concentrate on delivering the service that my constituents and I, and all I regret that the situation has arisen so near the Members of the House and their constituents, expect election, because I do not want this to be a competition—it and deserve. is not about that. I want to save my local hospital and services more than anybody else. The hon. Member for Islington, North talked about demonstrations and marches 5.48 pm in his constituency and about the all-party support for Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I them. In Hillingdon, there is nothing but unity among want to tell a tale of two hospitals. Mitcham’s Wilson all the local Members of Parliament and the other hospital was endowed by a local benefactor, Sir Isaac parties there. This is about trying to preserve what we Wilson, back in 1928. He specifically donated it for want for our constituents and fellow residents; it is not health purposes, but in the 1990s there was a Conservative about trying to score party political points. Government. The public campaigned long and hard to In A and E departments, members of staff do not keep this much loved cottage hospital open—but the hang around waiting for work to come in; they are Tories would not listen, and they closed it. overstretched as it is. If, as is the suggestion in north-west Now, however, there is a different Government, and London, three hospitals are left with an A and E later this month the Wilson hospital will reopen as a department, Hillingdon will be saved. Of course, I general practitioner-led health centre, open from 8 in would be delighted were that the case. However, if only the morning till 8 at night—the hours that patients two are to remain, I am afraid that Hillingdon will go, want—365 days a year. However, that is just the first according to the plan. If Hillingdon is saved, however, stage of the plan to improve the Wilson, and it will Ealing is on the list to go—and where will all those ultimately be a full care centre offering diagnostics, a people currently going to Ealing go? Are they all suddenly variety of medical treatments, dentists and GPs, out-patient going to pour into Hillingdon hospital? There is not the treatments, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy, capacity—never mind the difficulties of actually getting X-rays, electrocardiography, ultrasound, a baby clinic there and the geography of it! and even minor day surgery. The matter must be put into the open. People should What is more, the Wilson is not just getting a care know exactly what is being proposed at an early stage. centre; it is going to reopen as a proper cottage hospital, with minor operations and more than 50 intermediate Stephen Pound: As the hon. Gentleman has mentioned care beds for people recuperating from operations or in the great and glorious borough of Ealing, may I say need of care that they cannot get at home. The first that the 100,000 people who currently attend Ealing A stage—our local GP-led health centre—opens on 31 March. and E department would, I am sure, have no objection The remainder of the hospital will be open by 2013. to going to Hillingdon—we have nothing against That is still three years away and subject to planning Hillingdon? However, we would quite like to keep what approval, but I want to commend Ministers, officials we have got—thank you very much. and NHS staff for all that they have done so far, and take this opportunity to encourage them to keep up Mr. Randall: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. their good work. We are delighted with our new GP-led We want Ealing to keep its hospital, because we do not health centre, but we want the rest as soon as we can want lots more cases coming to Hillingdon. The people have it. The Wilson is in one of the most deprived wards of Ealing deserve to have their A and E department in the whole of south-west London, and will make an there. enormous difference to many people’s lives. 195 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 196

[Siobhain McDonagh] 5.53 pm

That was the tale of the Wilson; now I want to tell the Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): I shall restrict House about St. Helier hospital. St. Helier opened in my comments. I shall not be party political, nor shall the 1930s to serve one of Europe’s largest council I give a history lesson, because our constituents want estates, but by the 1990s it had become shabby, and in and deserve more than cheap political point scoring, 1996 it became infamous when patients were left on although it is unfortunate that this debate is happening trolleys in the corridor because there were no beds. If at a time when a general election is to be held in a anybody wants a reminder of what a Tory Government matter of a few weeks. means, it is patients dying in the corridor because there Let me start by talking about secrecy. Normally, the is no room in the hospital. St. Helier was at rock hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) and I would bottom, so NHS bosses under the previous Government be called in to the primary care trust for a meeting to developed plans to shut it and move its services across discuss any proposals, but surprisingly on this occasion south London to Croydon. Things happen slowly in the the trust did not want us together; it wanted us separately. NHS, but a process was set in motion, and eventually However, when we went in, we both faced the same the local NHS proposed moving everything to Belmont, panel—a panel of doctors and clinicians—telling us in the Surrey suburbs. However, when residents across why it was better for our constituents not to have the region were consulted, Belmont was the least favourite services at King George hospital, and how that would choice. St. Helier was the favourite choice. benefit them. We were told that things would be absolutely Luckily, in 2004 there was a Labour council in Merton, fine, but let me say this to those bureaucrats. After a and it called in the Belmont decision. A year later my public meeting with hundreds of people, which I, like right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West the hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn), (Ms Hewitt) agreed with residents, instructing the NHS held, we too had a march involving all the parties. The to rebuild St. Helier rather than relocate, because this hon. Member for Ilford, South and I, together with would help reduce health inequalities. Unfortunately, as other hon. Members in the area, worked together for I am sure the Minister of State, my right hon. and what is best for our constituents—not what is best for learned Friend the Member for North Warwickshire the political parties, but what is best for the people who (Mr. O’Brien), would admit, things do not always run put us here. smoothly in an organisation as big as the NHS. There have been a few jolts along the way, but last year Jeremy Corbyn: Don’t point your finger at me! London’s NHS finally approved the full plans for St. Helier hospital, and last month the Department of Health gave them the green light. Mr. Scott: I thank the hon. Gentleman for agreeing I would like to thank my right hon. and learned Friend with me. personally for his enormous help. He has repeatedly The proposals to cut A and E, maternity and other met me, as well as the hon. Members for Sutton and services at King George hospital will benefit nobody—not Cheam (Mr. Burstow) and for Carshalton and Wallington one constituent in Ilford, South, not one in Ilford, (Tom Brake), who have been assiduously helpful themselves. North, and not one in Leyton and Wanstead, or Chingford He has been very hands-on, and has done his best to and Woodford Green—because believe me, if the services ensure that officials deliver the health service that people at King George are cut, Queen’s hospital in Romford in Mitcham and Morden, Sutton and Carshalton all will not be able to take the pressure. want. Now we just have to wait for the final rubber stamp from the Treasury. I thank Ministers for all their support. Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): My hon. Friend I have invited my right hon. and learned Friend to is absolutely right. Before A and E, and maternity meet my constituents to hear what they think about our services, could be transferred from King George hospital, local NHS. I am pleased to say that he has agreed to which would be a negative move for his constituents, join us later this month. He is very welcome. In many additional space would have to be created at Queen’s ways he is the personification of the tale of two hospitals, hospital, which is already at full capacity. That could be but it is also a tale of two Governments. The first was a achieved only by moving some existing services elsewhere, broken Government running a broken NHS, shutting a but there is no suggestion of what those services might cottage hospital that had been built to help poor workers be or where they would be moved to. in south London and plotting to close a general hospital where people were dying on trolleys because they could not find beds—the worst instincts of a Conservative Mr. Scott: My hon. Friend is perfectly right. The Government. biggest problem in this whole exercise is that Queen’s Those were the worst of times, but that was the 1990s. hospital cannot cope even now. There are many occasions Now it is 2010. Our broken health service is slowly on which it cannot take A and E patients, who are being put back together under a Labour Government, diverted back to King George hospital, so how cutting with the Wilson reopening and St. Helier not only safe the services there could possibly benefit anybody I do from closure, but likely to be completely rebuilt. It not know. might be stretching the point to say that we are now in We have also seen another major problem. We heard the best of times, but things are certainly a lot better earlier about the NHS and rewards for failure. This than they were. I am proud of the progress that we have House has heard me say before that the previous chief already made and hopeful about future progress. On executive in the Barking, Havering and Redbridge trust behalf of my constituents, I would thank like to thank got a substantial pay-off for working up one of the everyone who has supported our local NHS in the past largest deficits in this country, totalling more than 13 years. £100 million, which is why the current problems exist. 197 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 198

The most important thing that can be said is that we to ensure their clinical and financial viability. This acute have to protect the services. I promise that I am not activity change will enhance the viability of the surrounding scaremongering, but lives will be lost, given the time acute hospitals.” that it would take for someone living in the west of my I agree with Ealing’s consultants that any reduction in constituency—for instance, in Hainault, where I happen the level of acute services at Ealing hospital will inevitably to live, or in Woodford or Woodford Bridge—to get to lead to the closure of the A and E department at Ealing, Queen’s hospital in Romford. The proposals have to be and the loss of acute services at Ealing can only mean stopped. That is why, whatever motion we have tabled, that it will no longer be a meaningful local acute hospital. if it says, “We must halt this now,” it is the right motion. I agree with the British Medical Association’s London We cannot have these ludicrous cuts. I have received regional council when it says that London’s doctors and more than 1,000 communications from my constituents. patients are being kept in the dark about NHS London’s Surprisingly enough, not one has said, “We think it’d be proposals. I also agree with its statement that a good idea to cut services at King George”—and that “Lord Darzi pledged that all changes would benefit patients, is true across the political spectrum; this has nothing to be locally led and that existing services will not be withdrawn do with party politics or scaremongering. I have also until new and better services are available to patients so they can received anonymous e-mails, but I am not even going to see the difference.” mention those because they were anonymous, and I do not know whether they were correct or not. However, I Stephen Pound: My hon. Friend is making a do know that many staff at the hospital are scared to characteristically powerful case, and I know how much speak their minds because they fear to lose their jobs. he cares for, and has fought for, the A and E department I understand and respect that. at Ealing hospital. Does he agree that of all the boroughs I have one final point. At the public meeting that he has mentioned, Ealing has the largest population—nearly I held, I was told by the PCT and a doctor that if 330,000—and that those people have an extraordinary somebody had a heart attack outside King George range of health problems and inequalities that are almost hospital, they would be taken to another A and E unit. I unique within the sector? Does he also agree that, if this have never heard anything so ludicrous. How could it glorious amalgamation—this great mélange of trusts— possibly be better for anybody not to be assessed at the should come together, all that is special and unique A and E unit closest to where they live? If we do not about Ealing would be lost, including, above all, the stop the proposals—not only the proposals for King ability of Ealing hospital to attend to those special George hospital, but those for hospitals across our needs and demands? area—we will be letting down the very people who Mr. Sharma: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. elected us to this House last time, and who will or will I agree with him, but I shall not repeat what has already not elect us here in a few weeks. We are here to represent been said by other hon. Members about this. them. Let us not forget that. I recognise the need to develop more locally based primary care services at polyclinics, but they are as yet 5.59 pm unbuilt and untried. Ealing hospital has approximately Mr. Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I welcome 100,000 A and E patients each year and, although many this opportunity to debate health care in London, primarily of those could be treated in a primary care setting, because there has been a lack of transparency and many could not, and those patients are dependent for debate about alleged NHS London plans for my local their treatment—and, in some instances, their lives—on hospital, Ealing hospital, and for other hospital trusts the acute services that are an integral part of the A and across London. Leaked reports from NHS London E department. With such large numbers visiting Ealing’s have caused great concern among my constituents about A and E, which was originally designed to treat only the future of Ealing hospital and its A and E, maternity, 30,000 patients, we have to ask ourselves where they children’s and acute services. The local paper, the Ealing would all go if the A and E were to close. Gazette, has begun a campaign, along with the local I am still deeply concerned about the future of Ealing community, to save our services at Ealing hospital, and hospital. I live only five minutes away from it, and I am I have pledged my support for that campaign. not planning on moving away from the area, so it will Since the NHS London report came to light, I have always be my local hospital. My children and grandchildren had meetings with Ealing hospital’s chief executive, also see it as their local hospital. My grandchildren with representatives of Ealing PCT, and with consultants were born there, and my daughter-in-law received life-saving from the hospital. I have also had discussions and treatment there. Ealing hospital serves the majority of correspondence with NHS London and with the Secretary my constituents, many of whom are from ethnic minority of State for Health. I should like to quote from the groups and who do not have English as their first NHS integrated service plan for 2009 to 2014, which language. They are often disadvantaged, vulnerable and was drawn up by the north-west London commissioning voiceless. They would have to travel much further if A partnership at the behest of NHS London. The following and E and acute services were closed or downgraded at paragraph relates to the plans for Ealing hospital: Ealing hospital. Their distinctive cultural and language “The Sector is actively promoting and supporting the concept needs are currently well met by the hospital, and I of the Integrated Care Organisation, bringing the PCT provider doubt that that would be the case elsewhere. Along with services of NHS Ealing and NHS Harrow together with Ealing the consultants, I am also concerned for the safety of Hospital Trust. All three Boards support this proposal. The patients if there were no A and E and acute services at provider services of NHS Brent are likely to join this organisation. the heart of my community at Ealing hospital. This will promote an innovative locally based model of community provision. All involved acknowledge that this will, over time, I am committed to speaking up for my constituents reduce the level of acute services on the Ealing site and they will on this issue, and I have tabled an early-day motion that be transferred or tendered to other acute provider management I ask other concerned Members to sign. I have also 199 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 200

[Mr. Sharma] be part of the fundamental discussion, and not when they have been told that they can find out about them. written to Mr. Speaker requesting an Adjournment At that point, three final options will be presented to debate on the same subject. I hope that these alleged them, and there will be a 12-week formal consultation, plans never see the light of day, but if they are real, they which can have an impact only at the edges. must be brought out into the open so that local people We have put freedom of information requests in can find out what is being proposed and make their place, but the response to all of them was, “You are views known. I for one want to make it very clear that I asking for too much information.” But there is no such oppose any plans, real or otherwise, to downgrade acute thing as too much information for the public, who need services at Ealing hospital. I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy to be able to participate and make decisions. Although Speaker, for allowing me to speak in this debate and to I intend to pursue those FOIs, let me show how bad put this on the record. things are by reading from the front of the leaked document, now on the website: 6.6 pm “The document contains extensive material that is exempt Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I particularly from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. It should not be released under the Act without prior consultation appreciate this opportunity to speak in the debate in with the NHS in South West London.” defence of my local hospital, Kingston hospital. I am joined in my campaign by my hon. Friend the Member Even FOIs will not obtain the full range of information. for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). We first learned I am incredibly sad to say that the Conservatives do of the risk to the hospital’s accident and emergency and not join us in the wish for full information. The hon. maternity departments towards the end of last year. We Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) declared told NHS officials that we thought the plans were in the debate of 8 February that he would not have put outrageous. Kingston’s maternity department deals with into the arena the information that we have, which I nearly 6,000 births a year, and the A and E unit treats find shocking. On 24 February, after five hours of more than 100,000 patients a year. It is therefore busier questioning the NHS, Liberal Democrat councillors at than almost any other hospital that has been mentioned. Kingston council moved a resolution. It said that since We agreed that we would hold back from going public the panel was now aware of the first of the documents, with our campaign until the documents had been published. the south-west London strategic plan, it called However, we were told in January that the documents “upon NHS London to publish this document immediately.” would be withheld until after the general election, so we Every Conservative councillor present voted against went public with our campaign anyway. that resolution. I am afraid that we are in a battle for I have heard about cross-party campaigns in every information by ourselves. corner of London, but I am incredibly sad to say that The House will be interested to know that my south-west London is the exception, and accusations of Conservative opponent joined in a letter with my Labour scaremongering have been levelled against my hon. opponent and the Green, all saying that our campaign Friend and me today. Those who did so are well aware, had been invented and amounted to scaremongering. I however, that, on 8 February, we put into the public envy the many others who have cross-party co-operation arena the document that was leaked to us confirming because that is what people in our area deserve and everything that we had said about the threats to Kingston should have. I turn to the Government and ask them to hospital. That document—the “South-West London provide the information so that our local people can be Strategic Plan: private and confidential: final draft”—is fully engaged and involved in absolutely key and critical now on our website. It lists the 18 options under decisions at a time when decisions should be flexible consideration, nearly all of which, unfortunately, involve and are formulated. I also turn to the Conservatives and the loss of services at Kingston hospital. ask why they are singling out south-west London as Those hon. Members will also be entirely aware that, place for which they do not demand information and on 24 February, Kingston’s health overview panel held why they will not join in the defence of the hospital, a five-hour scrutiny meeting, at which NHS representatives because it is time that they did, for the sake of all our were questioned for almost the entire time. I will read constituents. the local newspaper’s report of that meeting. It said: “NHS bosses have bowed to public and media pressure and 6.12 pm confirmed the closure of Kingston Hospital’s accident and emergency and maternity units is being considered as part of a review of Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) services in the area.” (Lab): Let me begin by putting the issues in the context That is from our very reliable Richmond and Twickenham of Islington. We have clearly benefited hugely, with the Times. We have also put into the public arena today, tripled budget, from the Labour Government’s investment through our website, the presentation to NHS Kingston’s in the health service. We have the best cancer unit in joint board and professional executive committee meeting, Britain in the world’s oldest hospital, at Barts. We have dated 15 January. That document unfortunately shows new doctor surgeries and more money is spent on the situation to be even worse, involving a greater loss health per head in Islington than anywhere else. of elective surgery than we had feared. I am expecting a We also have the fantastic University College London sincere—and, I hope, written—apology from those on hospital. My family, I am afraid, know the hospital all the other Benches. too well. The last time I went to its A and E department, More than anything, however, I am here to ask for my 10-year-old shouted rather loudly, “Mummy, this is the disclosure of information. My local residents want normally where we sit.” The A and E was built for to be part of this conversation in detail. They want to 60,000 people to go to, but now 100,000 people go understand all the facts and issues now, when they can there. I understand that the A and E at the Whittington 201 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 202 hospital has had £32 million invested in it. The reason widespread concern and a lack of confidence. It gave a we have all this money spent in Islington is because we clue as to what the world would look like if the Darzi die too early. Although the death rate has declined over model were followed through, and people should be the last few years, it is still very marked indeed, as about concerned. It is apparent that the call for a local-led 46 per cent. of Islington residents die prematurely. solution was nowhere near the mark when it came to We have done well, but we now hear that the NHS in Enfield. This was a top-down model, prescribed from Islington has, after a dance of seven veils, a plan to on high and greatly restricted in the options presented. close the Whittington A and E and the maternity unit, It asked the questions to produce the answers that were to which we say, “But why?” We are told that it is wanted in order to justify the Secretary of State’s decision because we are going to be £560 million short, to which in September 2008 to downgrade consultant-led A and we say, “Well, why? Where did you get that from? What E and maternity services. are you talking about?” Frankly, we get very little Interestingly, if one had gone across the country at response that makes any sense. We then say, “Is this the time of the consultation, one would have seen a because you are anticipating a Tory Government? Because replica model of health care being followed through. do you know what? There hasn’t even been an election The model had nothing to do with any particular input yet. Who knows whether or not we are going to have to or variation in local need. There were similar campaigns suffer a Conservative Government? Why are you making on the Sussex coast—across Chichester and Worthing, plans in anticipation of those sorts of cuts?” for example. All the models were based on the same one There has been, and still is, a great campaign. It was that came from on high in Enfield. launched in Islington and is led by local MPs. As my The same has been said elsewhere. Sir George Alberti right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy) came in as the troubleshooter to fix the problem. He said at a large meeting after a demonstration, saving the also recognised the lack of public engagement and Whittington is one of the few things that unites Tottenham expressed concerns about the need for clinical engagement. and Arsenal supporters. We have a great campaign, Crucially, he said there was a need for pump-priming which has involved more than 10,000 people, half of and bridge funding for the PCTs to ensure that their whom were on the demonstration that marched up primary care services were in place before any of the Holloway road last week. We have had packed public secondary care changes were made. meetings, led by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, Was there a bright new dawn in Enfield, which others North (Jeremy Corbyn). The Islington Tribune has provided could welcome and then follow down the same road? In crucial support to the campaign, as has the Islington the cold light of day in 2010, we see a primary care trust Gazette. that is still strapped for cash and facing a historic debt Let me assure the Islington PCT that we mean business; of some £25 million. It is still struggling to get within a we do not expect the A and E or the maternity unit in double-digit figure for its current debt, while the area the Whittington hospital to close. If decisions are to be still struggles to get any decent primary care. The poly- made locally, the PCT should listen to local people. If it systems are hardly in place across the borough and we wants a consultation, all it has to do is ask, and we will are left with the Secretary of State’s decision to downgrade tell it to leave the Whittington alone. If it thinks otherwise, consultant-led A and E and maternity services. We have it will have a fight on its hands. had some clarity about the situation, so we know that we are left with a 12-hour urgent care centre and at best a 24-hour doctor-led primary care service at Chase 6.15 pm Farm hospital. Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I am As in Islington and elsewhere, we had a march, with pleased to follow the hon. Member for Islington, South thousands of people participating, and I was joined by and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). We are part of the my hon. Friends the Member for Broxbourne and for north central London sector, facing similar challenges Chipping Barnet and by the hon. Member for Edmonton from the 80 or so wise men and women who are determining (Mr. Love) and the right hon. Member for Enfield, the health care of the people in our areas. North (Joan Ryan). We were all together, campaigning We often say that our constituencies are unique and to ensure that we retained our consultant-led A and E require special attention, and no more so than my and maternity services. Thousands of people signed constituency and Enfield more widely. Perhaps, however, petitions; the Conservative parliamentary candidate for that should not the case in this instance, as we are all Enfield, North, Nick de Bois, led the campaign, presented concerned about secrecy and plans that are being meted the petition and worked extremely hard. out without proper public consultation or clinical input. What has happened to the campaign now? We have In Enfield, we can peer into and go beyond the world of lost it. There has been a division. Conservative Members Darzi and see what the real world could be like. We are, are full square behind the need to recognise that there in a sense, the leaders of the pack when it comes to should be consultant-led care, but the champagne has health care for London. Plans were put in place three been popped, regrettably, by the right hon. Lady at the years ago, which in many ways have been mirrored door of the A and E unit. What was the celebration? A across London, so let us peer in and see what has downgrade of our services. It is not possible to sit on happened in Enfield. both sides of the barricades in this argument; it is A consultation took place. We hear a lot in documents necessary to stand full square behind the people of about wide consultation, but it did not reach the doors Enfield, who do not want a downgrade of our services. of many of my constituents or, indeed, those of my What is the situation 18 months after the consultation? hon. Friends the Members for Chipping Barnet There is increasing demand, with more than 3,300 births (Mrs. Villiers) and for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker). The at Chase Farm hospital and more than 100,000 attendances consultation was woeful and incomplete, leading to in A and E. My constituents—all our constituents—are 203 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 204

[Mr. David Burrowes] roughly here, in 1998, during the passage of the Bill that became the Greater London Authority Act 1999, and said asking why, given all the money that is going into the health that if in 10 years’ time the Greater London assembly service and given the rising demand, we are reducing and the Mayor had not evolved enough to take a access to accident and emergency services while increasing significant and direct role in the strategic health concerns management of contracts and increasing waste. They of London, the Act would prove to be a failure. For all want a new financial model and a new clinical model the glossy little documents that Boris Johnson has that would ensure that we look at the position again. produced, he has, as I have said, done nothing of any consequence. Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Why does If we are honest in a cross-party context, we must agree my hon. Friend feel that the concerns of people in that the dilemma is between the strategic and the local. I Broxbourne and Enfield have been ignored throughout take the point made by the hon. Member for Enfield, the process? Southgate, who lamented what had happened to Chase Farm. Chase Farm matters to me as well, because it is Mr. Burrowes: I think that in many ways the deal was linked with Barnet, and if Barnet health authority done before the point of engagement was even reached. decides to do things at either Chase Farm or Barnet As other Conservative Members have pointed out, the there will be consequences for Edgware hospital, which decision had already been made. Models have been is 10 yards away on the other side of the Edgware road. adopted, irrespective of the different clinical needs. Where does the local begin and where does it end? In Eighteen months on, we are seeing not just a campaign January 1997 the Tories closed Edgware general hospital. on Chase Farm, but a prospect that is even worse, They downgraded it, and left it with Barnet. It cannot whether that is at the Whittington or elsewhere. The be enough to make the local prevail over the strategic £500 million funding gap is raised, and there is the when people’s health needs do not recognise borough question of whether between one and three major acute boundaries in a nice convenient way. hospitals—the North Middlesex or Barnet, for example— will retain a 24-hour A and E service. A document Mrs. Villiers: A few months ago the Secretary of published by NHS London questions whether it would State signed off the controversial downgrade of be safe for those local hospitals to retain their maternity Chase Farm that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the units, despite the increasing birth rate and increasing Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes), on the demand. understanding, and on the basis of repeated promises, The proposals are unacceptable, and it is clear that that Barnet would be upgraded to take the pressure and we should halt them, not for the purpose of political the extra patients. How can the right hon. Gentleman convenience but because of the need for proper financial possibly justify the decision of NHS London to discuss and clinical models. The choice is clear: people can downgrading Barnet after the promises made about support Labour if they want the status quo—a continued Chase Farm? hospital downgrade—or they can support the Conservatives if they want the security of change that is based on local Mr. McNulty: The hon. Lady should listen. I am not and clinical need. justifying it at all. I am simply saying that what happens in one part of London has serious ramifications in another part of London that is apparently not particularly 6.22 pm close to it. Mr. Tony McNulty (Harrow, East) (Lab): The hon. The key question is “If not this, then what?” Does Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) was doing there need to be a strategy review and overhaul of what so well until the end of his speech. This debate has to be is going on in London? I think that everyone would slightly bigger than the ponderous party politics outlined answer “Yes”, but anyone who answers “No” is living in by him then, and outlined earlier by the hon. Member the past, because the real world moves on. However, for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). The notion when it comes to the question of whether the bureaucracy that there is a land of milk and honey just waiting for has the capacity and is properly equipped to deal with the time when the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire such an overhaul, I hesitate. Let me give an example. takes over is palpable nonsense, and the hon. Gentleman When the maternity service at Northwick Park hospital knows it. was reconfigured 10 or 12 years ago, it could not have A point made by the hon. Member for South been known that more than half the cases presenting to Cambridgeshire went to the core of the matter. There is the service would be in the high-risk category, because a dilemma between the local and the strategic in London, that particular part of the population was not there which has been woefully neglected since the inception then. of the national health service. I would say—of course I Where are the flexibility and responsiveness that would would, as a suburban Member of Parliament—that for make it possible to deal with the dynamics of what is too long everything has been sucked into the centre, going on in London? Local needs cannot just mean courtesy of the fancy and precious London teaching PCTs. Unlike the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Horam), hospitals, which admittedly are wonderful, and to the who has represented about three dozen parties and four detriment of the suburbs. That dilemma has still not constituencies—he is not in Chamber at present—I do been resolved, and sadly it has not been and will not be not argue that there should be far fewer PCTs. There resolved by Boris Johnson, as the hon. Member for should be co-operation between PCTs. I believe—and South Cambridgeshire intimated. here again I agree with the hon. Member for South On health as on a bunch of other things over the past Cambridgeshire—that there are local dimensions in two years, Johnson has done nothing of any consequence which public and preventive health should be provided for public health or health in London. I stood here, or all the more. 205 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 206

Over the past 20 or 30 years, a collective failure of Croydon Members must remember that Croydon is a public policy has meant that preventive medicine and very ethnically diverse community and that more than primary care have not developed as they should have. 13 per cent. of our constituents are over 65, which is a Anyone who visits any other European country will higher proportion than the London average. We must find that most of the cases that present to A and E remember that Croydon has a large black and minority encounter nothing resembling the provision here, because ethnic community, which faces particular health issues people in such countries as Germany and Sweden are to do with diabetes and stroke. Reference has been much more aware and much more educated. made to the concentration of stroke resources at St. George’s If various different organisations such as trusts and hospital, which we campaigned against in Croydon. PCTs are to deal with local health provision in this With this proposal we again face the prospect of the country, my one plea is that they should talk to each removal of a great deal of specialisms from hospitals other. Apart from the Royal National Orthopaedic such as Mayday university hospital. This sort of hospital, whose trust is separate from the PCT, there are downgrading, which is also proposed for St. Helier and no hospitals in my constituency. Edgware community Kingston hospitals, means that that they will become hospital, 10 yards away on the other side of the Edgware “local” hospitals. In essence, this proposal will turn road, is hugely important, but is run by Barnet. Just the Mayday university hospital into what the Croydon general other side of the Northwick Park roundabout is Northwick was: it will become, in effect, a place for respite and Park hospital, in the constituency of my hon. Friend recovery. When I said that this is a bit like having a the Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner), which university where the research professors have been sent is run by Brent. In the middle is Harrow PCT. At 10 miles down the road, I was told that I need not worry present the PCT is doing some very good work looking because the consultants would visit one day a week. into the possibility of a polyclinic and the reconfiguration That was not a terribly reassuring briefing to receive on of GP services in the east of the borough, which is long how these things will work. overdue. Barnet, meanwhile, is considering what provision Obviously one must be cautious about what one for Edgware community hospital should be over the next discusses in terms of the secret documents that we were 10 years. Are they talking to each other? Not enough. allowed to see. The document given to me and to the It is true that Northwick Park, to which my hon. Liberal Democrat Members in south-west London shows Friend the Member for Brent, North will no doubt clearly a proposal whereby refer, has been given “stroke status”—if that is the right phrase—and is developing its acute facilities, while also “58 per cent. of A and E activity” dealing with serious financial consequences; but is it would be moved from hospitals in south-west London. talking to Barnet about what will be provided at Edgware? That, along with the ambition to move more than Is it talking to Harrow PCT about the configuration of 60 per cent. of current hospital out-patient appointments GPs in the east of Harrow? Can the three together come and the other drawing of patients away from GP surgeries up with a solution that has a degree of synergy? That is into polyclinics, is disturbing. almost sub-strategic, but it is certainly supra-local. I wish to conclude by giving an example of how Simply talking about things being driven by local difficult it will be to deliver on some of the savings that needs is bunkum. Simply talking—as I know Ministers are in this secret document. We are talking about savings are not—about things being driven top-down is equal of about 33 per cent. I am concerned that an incoming bunkum. Where are the mechanisms that could get Government, desperate to deliver financial savings in a things right in the middle? I fear that they have not yet Budget proposed within 50 days, might reach for this been developed. I think that the concern about sector-based document and say, “Yes, we can deliver.” That delivery and sometimes secretive solutions is partly due to the will not happen, and I shall give hon. Members the fact that no one in one part knows what those in the Croydon example to show why. other part are doing. Of course there should be more openness, but there must also be a strategic review that Croydon has two polyclinics, one of which is to be takes local dimensions fully into account. found in the constituency of the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Richard Ottaway). He has been vehement 6.29 pm in expressing his concern about the redevelopment of Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I am Purley hospital, which was promised in 2001. He raised very mindful that others wish to speak, so I shall be the issue again and received reassurances from the brief. The Minister constantly refers to the way in which Conservative Front-Bench team about it today. It has these are local initiatives, but it has been clear in the taken eight or nine years to get nowhere on that hospital, debates from the four quarters of London that a single and that is an example of how polyclinic savings will blueprint is being pursued on these proposals. I have a not be delivered, because the place has just not been great deal of admiration for the hon. Members for built yet. As for my constituency, people will have to go Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) and for Richmond to a polyclinic in the centre of Croydon, sited on a slip Park (Susan Kramer) because of how they have ensured road off a flyover. Let us try to imagine people having that this debate has the highest profile. However, I fear to go there in an emergency. They are not going to go that we will pass round the black spot as it were, on this on a bus. It will not be easy to deliver a baby on a slip proposal because if they are successful in defending road off a flyover. If there is a prospect of people being services at Kingston hospital, somewhere else in the able to park, they will be competing in a town centre sector will lose out. I have been impressed, in a way, with residents who are already desperately competing with how NHS officials have spoken to me in dramatic for parking spaces. These are practical examples of how terms, saying that I will kill or disable people if I oppose NHS officials—people who are making the decisions, these proposals. However, I beg to differ, particularly as and not democratically—have no understanding or sense regards the impact on Croydon. of the real practicality of delivery. 207 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 208

[Mr. Andrew Pelling] departments, whereas in fact the strategic health authority has confirmed that all five will keep their existing accident The final point I wish to make—I apologise to hon. and emergency departments, but three are due to be Members for taking my allocated six minutes—is that upgraded into what will, in effect, be super-providers. I this decision should be made during the general election trust that Opposition Members will now stop portraying campaign; it should not be postponed in the way that as a cut what is in fact a proposed upgrade. the Conservative motion surprisingly suggested or in There are three key milestones for the Northwick the way in which the Labour Government and NHS Park hospital’s trust. The first is dealing with the hospital’s officials wish. This decision should be made during a historic debt of £21.5 million. That will take place over general election—when patients have real influence on the next two months when the primary care trusts the debate and on the decisions that will be made—rather across London meet to agree their support for wiping than their being made by faceless NHS officials. out that debt. The second is the public consultation on the future configuration of the sector this autumn. The 6.34 pm third is the support from NHS London to embark on a Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): In international hospital rebuild. women’s week, I wish to pay tribute to all the women who work in our health service, from chief executives Mr. Lansley: Just so that the hon. Gentleman does and chairs of trusts, to nurses, porters, physiotherapists, not misrepresent what is in the north-west London catering staff, cleaning staff, consultants, doctors, midwives sector document, I should say that page 54 makes it and, above all, health visitors. The overwhelming majority clear that the local hospitals—those that are not designated of health visitors are women, because that is a profession as major acute hospitals—will include a that, above all, requires common sense. How many “GP led Urgent Care service.” times throughout the world have women turned to their Contrary to what is said in the NHS London document, families after some apparent crisis and said, “At least the north-west London document does not promise we’ve got our health”? local hospitals a continuing emergency department. Our physical and mental health is the bedrock of all that we do and all that we are. As an MP, I therefore Barry Gardiner: I do not know whether the hon. take a fundamental interest in and fundamental Gentleman has had the benefit of speaking both to the responsibility for the quality of health care services that chief executives of the hospitals and to Ruth Carnall my constituents enjoy. My interest must be not just in from the strategic health authority. He would find that outputs—how much money or resources the Government she has confirmed that there are no plans to take away make available—but in outcomes such as mortality the accident and emergency departments from those rates, quality of care and speed of treatment. I must hospitals. also bear responsibility, not for individual cases but for I turn now to my local primary care trust, NHS the configuration of services, their proper resourcing Brent. Four years ago, I was extremely critical of Brent and the proper benchmarking and monitoring of delivery. PCT and was in part responsible for initiating the Northwick Park hospital and St. Mark’s hospital fall turnaround plan. Today, NHS Brent is one of the two inside my constituency and, together with Central Middlesex fastest improving PCTs in the country based on the hospital, which lies in the constituency of my neighbour, Care Quality Commission performance ratings for 2008-09. my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Ms Butler), It is a borough that recalls 19-hour waits on trolleys in form the North West London Hospitals NHS Trust, A and E under the Conservatives, and it is meeting its which serves most people in Brent and Harrow. I am targets on four-hour waiting lists. In particular, it has proud to say that it is the only trust assessed as “excellent” exceeded the 93 per cent. target for cancer waits of no for the quality of its services in outer north-west London. longer than 14 days. Critically, this is about not only Last summer, I was delighted that the trust was designated improved targets, but lives saved: mortality—not only as one of only eight hyper acute stroke units for London. for cancer but for cardiovascular disease— has vastly We have all seen the excellent public services adverts improved. about FAST—Face, Arms, Speech, Time. I congratulate All mortality has improved from 87 per 100,000 only the trust on its success in winning this key unit, which two years ago to 79 per 100,000 now. Health inequality is part of a scheme projected to save 500 lives a lies at the heart of this debate, and in the south of year across London. Although I was delighted by the Brent, in Stonebridge ward, the average life expectancy announcement, may I advise the Secretary of State that is almost 10 years less than that in some of the more I will be even more delighted when the Northwick Park affluent wards that I represent in Brent, North. hospital’s trust is announced as one of the major acute hospitals for the sector, thus upgrading it still further? Stephen Pound: On that point, my elder brother was I trust that such an announcement may come later born two years before the national health service and he this year. died as a child. The next brother died. I was born in the While discussing major acute trusts, I must comment same week as the national health service and I am still on the intervention by the hon. Member for Hammersmith here. However, the key point is surely that there is and Fulham (Mr. Hands), who is no longer in his place. confusion in the national health service. Doctors and He suggested that five accident and emergency departments clinicians feel that they are not being given the space to would close at the eight north-west London hospitals. breathe and to do what they do best. Does my hon. The “Healthcare for London” report actually talked of Friend agree that there seems to be a disconnect between creating three major acute trusts. He has interpreted the public affection, respect and need for the national that to mean that three hospitals would stay the same health service and this strategic exercise that is not and five would lose their accident and emergency being connected up at the moment? 209 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 210

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Member I hope that at the end of this debate Ministers will for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner) continues—and I address some of the concerns that have been raised. ask him to keep an eye on the time—may I say to the Although in London we have some of the best hospitals hon. Lady and hon. Gentleman below the Gangway in the country—and, indeed, even in the world—we that they should not be reading newspapers in the also have, as we have heard, some of the worst health Chamber? outcomes, with stroke, heart disease and cancer being particular causes of concern. Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend the Member for Health inequalities in London are complex. The London Ealing, North (Stephen Pound) made his point in a poverty profile shows that three quarters of the London characteristically robust fashion. boroughs with the highest rates of premature death I want to focus on health inequality, and it is clear are in inner London. The risk of premature death in that one of the best ways of addressing health inequality Newham and Lambeth is 250 per 100,000 people, which is through increasing physical activity, particularly in is twice that in Kensington and Chelsea. There are also the young. I urge the Department of Health to invest unequal levels of long-term illness, with east London far more than it has in the past. It has already begun to disproportionately affected. The last census revealed work in this area and the Change4Life campaign that that 15 per cent. of adults in Islington, Hackney, Newham the Department has been running is extremely productive and Barking and Dagenham suffered a long-standing in this respect. I believe that much more must be done in illness—twice the level of such illness in Richmond and co-operation with the fitness industry and with sports Kingston. It is perhaps no wonder that some of the providers throughout the capital to ensure that we not Members representing those constituencies have taken only address the problems of obesity in the young but the opportunity to flag up their concerns about the set up a platform for fitness throughout life that will changes in health care provision that could be coming help to address health inequalities as a whole. down the track for their constituents. What have we had in response to that complex series Clive Efford: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. of health care needs? We have a city-wide strategy from In response to the rebuke that you just gave to me, I NHS London and now, as we have heard today, some want to tell you that I was reading something that had specific plans are being worked up, apparently behind just been pointed out to me. The Evening Standard closed doors, by individual so-called NHS sectors. NHS seems to have a report on today’s debate that is in the London has predicted that its funding shortfall by 2017 past tense in a newspaper that was printed before the could be £5 billion. On the back of that assessment have debate took place. come some serious unfolding plans to reorganise services, shifting care away from acute hospital provision to community services and centralisation of specialist services. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I merely say to the hon. Gentleman that it is a convention of the House that Members do Those far-reaching changes have raised the prospect not read books or newspapers while a debate is taking that behind closed doors we could have plans for some place. There are other places—[Interruption.] Order. of London’s hospitals to be downgraded and even There are other places in which that can be done. closed down. In all the proposals that seem to be being worked up, it is interesting to see that there does not seem to be much mention of the fact that management 6.43 pm costs in the NHS have skyrocketed. There does not seem to be much mention of the fact that 15 per cent. of Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I am sure that many the estates owned by the NHS in London are either people watching the debate will think that that time unoccupied or underutilised. I know that from personal could have been better spent focused on what Members experience, as the Putney hospital site in my constituency from all parties were saying. Indeed, as we have heard has been derelict for the past decade. The local primary over the past few hours, concern has been expressed care trust apparently has no ability to bring it into use from both sides of the House about the process that is for our local health care provision. unfolding and about how our NHS services in London will be reconfigured over the coming months unless we Mr. Davey: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving halt this process. I hope that tonight’s debate has given way and I agree with an awful lot that she is saying. Will Ministers some cause for concern, because residents she say a little more about the Conservative motion, across London are absolutely furious that they are not however? She calls for the reconfiguration to be postponed being involved in this process in the way that they want “until a more effective public consultation is in place”. to be. How would her public consultation differ from that We all know that London is a diverse and vibrant proposed by the Government, which is due to start in city.Residents are very mobile. Migration and demographic some sectors of London around the autumn? patterns mean that we have an every-changing population. That is a key part of London’s identity, but we know Justine Greening: I think it would have a number of that when it comes to providing health care in the important differences. First, it would be led at a local capital, it means that we face some unique challenges. level by GPs. The Minister has said that clinicians are Even the Minister of State, Department of Health, the discussing it among themselves, but we think that that is right hon. and learned Member for North Warwickshire not good enough. Of course clinicians need to be involved, (Mr. O’Brien), when he was introducing the debate on but so do GPs and, critically—this has come across in behalf of the Government, admitted that Londoners every speech made tonight—so do the public. People put up with a worse health service than other parts of feel like they are going to be presented with a fait the country, in spite of the tireless work of NHS staff in accompli when they have had no opportunity for input our primary care trusts, GP surgeries and hospitals. at an early stage. That is why we have had the debate 211 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 212

[Justine Greening] (Justine Greening) this evening. The case for change in London is undeniable. When Lord Darzi started the today—to start a proper debate that the public can be process of reviewing the NHS in the capital, London part of. If Ministers ignore that, they will be going was consistently rated as the worst of the 10 strategic down a very dangerous route. health authorities. Its rates were among the worst for Serious questions have been raised today about the mortality, waiting times, quality measures and patient reliability of the funding projections on which the experience. It is impossible to argue that that was an reorganisation is based. The assumptions are questionable acceptable state of affairs. —they have even been questioned by the work of the Much has been said about inequality in health tonight, King’s Fund, for example, which seems to undermine particularly by the Conservative party. That is pleasing whether the assumptions we have will actually work. because I believe that until Labour came into government Above all, it seems to be a financially driven process. in 1997, the words “inequality in health” were not We need a careful, considered assessment of London’s allowed to be uttered in the Department of Health. health care needs and of how they will change over the Londoners deserve, at the very least, the same chances coming years. and the same level of care and treatment that their In particular, we have heard concerns about the fact family and friends in other parts of the country receive. that we will see patients transferred to community services That is what Healthcare for London is about. when those services, or polysystems, as they are being The massive task of turning health care in London called—more impenetrable language that the public can around is not led by politicians in Westminster, the never understand—are not even necessarily in place. Government or civil servants in Whitehall. It is all run That is a real concern. We heard the concerns expressed by clinicians—doctors, nurses and other dedicated health by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate care professionals on the ground—in close consultation (Mr. Burrowes) about what has happened in his with the communities they serve. The Healthcare for constituency, which flag up that we are right to be London framework for action was developed in response concerned. to that, and the case for change and the recommendations I shall make progress, because I know that the Minister for responding to it were accepted by the public. Primary will want to answer some of the concerns that have been care trusts consulted on the case for change and received raised tonight. Of course, the other issue that has emerged more than 5,000 responses. We had about 40,000 visitors is, as has just been mentioned by the hon. Member for in all to the website and to meetings and roadshows. Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), that the approach The public were clearly in favour of our making a set of has been secretive. We have all urged our local NHS changes built on considerations of quality, safety, outcomes providers to be transparent with the public about the and patient experience. A joint London overview and process. Whatever the Minister says, it is not being driven scrutiny committee that represented all 33 boroughs locally—it does not even seem to be driven clinically. was formed, and it agreed the proposals with recourse The public seem to have no access to the debate that is to the Secretary of State referral. That gives the proposals going on in the inner recesses of the NHS, and they are local legitimacy and means that we can be held to deeply concerned about that. We need a different approach account for their delivery. that is rooted in local communities and that involves GPs, clinicians and, critically, the public. Clive Efford: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for setting out how the consultation took place. She, like The conclusion to the debate must be that the current me, will have worn out her shoes campaigning against process has been discredited and should therefore be many Tory cuts in the NHS. It is worth reminding halted. The assumptions regarding the solutions that the House that in the period between 1979 and 1997, have been worked up about moving services into the 10 hospitals were closed in Greenwich. In comparison, community are flawed financially, the focus is apparently a brand new community hospital is being opened in the on cutting front-line services rather than on challenging heart of my constituency in 2011. the massive growth of bureaucracy in the NHS that has occurred under Labour, and the public have no involvement Ann Keen: That has also to do with the calibre of the in the process at the very time when they should be MP and what they can bring to an area. Certainly, when central to it. That simply is not good enough. As we I worked in the health service under the Conservative have heard, there is simply no transparency. I take this party, Barney Hayhoe, who is now a Lord, was a Health opportunity to urge NHS London to start being transparent Minister, but one thing that he could not have been and to start communicating with the public on the accused of was selfishly looking after his own constituency’s ground in the communities who are so worried about health needs. I spent most of my time working in a what is going on. Instead, the Minister has tried to crumbling old workhouse. justify the process when he should be challenging it. All the decisions that have been, are and will be made There has almost been unanimity across the Chamber must be based on hard evidence and what works in the regarding our concerns about this process. I conclude best interests of the patient. The objective of all the by saying that we all have a chance tonight to represent changes is simple—to save thousands of lives. those concerns on behalf of our constituents. If we do not take that chance, I am sure that our constituents Mr. Slaughter: After five years, my constituents are will represent their own concerns about this issue at the fed up with Tory smears that my local hospital will be ballot box. closed or downgraded or that it will lose vital services. In fact, it is expanding and improving under Imperial 6.51 pm College Healthcare NHS Trust. At the risk of trying my The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health hon. Friend’s patience, I ask her to confirm again that (Ann Keen): First, let me say what a pleasure it is to be there are no plans to close the A and E at Charing part of the debate with the hon. Member for Putney Cross, Hammersmith or St. Mary’s hospitals. 213 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 214

Ann Keen: I can give that assurance to my hon. Friend. overall quality of other health services to reduce disability There is no case for that at all. and prevent pressure from being placed on our acute hospitals. Change is necessary to improve services, and Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. we cannot and must not back away from the problems. Friend will know that I tabled an amendment, which Ministers have made it clear tonight that any changes in was not selected, asking the Secretary of State to refer London must follow an agreed set of principles. to independent review the proposal for reconfiguration in outer north-east London. Will she arrange an urgent Mr. Sharma: Given the needs of the unique and meeting between me and her ministerial colleagues to diverse communities in the area around Ealing hospital, discuss that proposal, which is supported by my local can the Minister assure me that the hospital’s A and E authority, the London borough of Redbridge and by department will not be closed? the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott)? Ann Keen: There are no proposals to close the A and Ann Keen: I assure my hon. Friend that that meeting E department at Ealing. can be arranged and that that consultation with us can, Change must always be to the benefit of patients. It of course, take place. must improve the quality of care that patients receive, in terms of clinical outcomes, experience and safety. Change Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): The Minister must be clinically driven. We will ensure that it is to the of State, Department of Health, made it pretty clear benefit of patients by making sure that it is always led earlier that Whittington A and E department is safe. by clinicians, and based on the best available clinical Will my hon. Friend make the same pledge regarding evidence. the Royal Free? All change must be locally led. Meeting the challenge of being a universal service means that the NHS must Ann Keen: All the proposals are being considered meet the different needs of everyone. However, universal clinically and in the appropriate way. [HON.MEMBERS: is not the same as uniform: different places have different “Ah!”] Opposition Members must not read anything and changing needs, and local needs are best met by into that. Their scaremongering is at its height in tonight’s local solutions. debate, but we will not take any more scaremongering I believe that MPs and Ministers are right to protest this evening. in their local areas if they feel the need to. As to Many of the polyclinics that have been set up, including marches, we on this side of the House are very good at the Heart of Hounslow clinic in my constituency and marching, because we have had years of experience of another in Hammersmith and Fulham, are making a marching to save our NHS. A local decision will involve huge difference to what takes place in A and E departments. the local MP, and he or she may be a Minister. London’s A and E departments are used and sometimes The local NHS will involve patients, carers, the public abused differently than those in the rest of the country. and other key partners. Those affected by proposed The way forward is to bring primary care into polyclinics— changes will have the chance to have their say and offer [Interruption.] their contribution. NHS organisations will work openly and collaboratively. We are clear that any changes have Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The debate is in danger to meet those requirements. If they do not, the powers of disintegrating. The Minister is replying to a debate in exist to refer them to the independent reconfiguration which a great many hon. Members have taken part. panel. They are entitled to hear her reply, and I should like the Yes, we need to change to save lives. If we are honest, debate to be finished in good order, as there is another however, Governments for too long have backed away debate to follow in which a great many hon. Members from the tough decisions needed to tackle these issues. seek to take part. I worked—

Ann Keen: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We must Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con) claimed to move always consider the evidence, and the evidence shows the closure (Standing Order No. 36). that patients will receive better outcomes when they are Question put forthwith, That the Question be now treated in specific hospitals that have a high volume of put. particular clinical work. The changes are about patients being seen by the right people in the right place with the Question agreed to. right equipment at the right time. Some difficult and Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), sensitive issues have been touched on in the debate, That the original words stand part of the Question. and we are sensitive to the views of colleagues and their The House divided: Ayes 214, Noes 284. constituents on these matters—particularly to the wisdom that has been shown by my right hon. Friend the Division No. 104] [7.01 pm Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) regarding the way in which all such consultations AYES should be conducted—because the outcome is about Afriyie, Adam Baldry, Tony safer patient care. Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Baron, Mr. John We must remain focused on the fundamental aims of Amess, Mr. David Beith, rh Sir Alan the changes, which are to improve health care in London. Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Bellingham, Mr. Henry The changes will save thousands of lives, will improve Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Benyon, Mr. Richard health outcomes in relation to major diseases such as Atkinson, Mr. Peter Beresford, Sir Paul cancer, heart disease and stroke, and will improve the Bacon, Mr. Richard Binley, Mr. Brian 215 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 216

Blunt, Mr. Crispin Heald, Mr. Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Taylor, Mr. Ian Bone, Mr. Peter Heath, Mr. David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Teather, Sarah Boswell, Mr. Tim Heathcoat-Amory, rh Robertson, Hugh Tredinnick, David Bottomley, Peter Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Turner, Mr. Andrew Brady, Mr. Graham Hemming, John Rogerson, Dan Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Brake, Tom Hendry, Charles Rowen, Paul Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Brazier, Mr. Julian Herbert, Nick Ruffley, Mr. David Walker, Mr. Charles Brokenshire, James Hoban, Mr. Mark Russell, Bob Wallace, Mr. Ben Brooke, Annette Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Sanders, Mr. Adrian Walter, Mr. Robert Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hollobone, Mr. Philip Scott, Mr. Lee Waterson, Mr. Nigel Browning, Angela Holmes, Paul Selous, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Burns, Mr. Simon Horam, Mr. John Shapps, Grant Webb, Steve Burrowes, Mr. David Horwood, Martin Shepherd, Mr. Richard Whittingdale, Mr. John Burstow, Mr. Paul Howarth, David Simmonds, Mark Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Burt, Alistair Howell, John Simpson, Mr. Keith Wiggin, Bill Cable, Dr. Vincent Hughes, Simon Smith, Chloe Willetts, Mr. David Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Huhne, Chris Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Mark Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Soames, Mr. Nicholas Williams, Stephen Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hunter, Mark Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Willis, Mr. Phil Cash, Mr. William Hurd, Mr. Nick Spicer, Sir Michael Willott, Jenny Chope, Mr. Christopher Jack, rh Mr. Michael Spink, Bob Wilshire, Mr. David Clappison, Mr. James Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spring, Mr. Richard Wilson, Mr. Rob Clark, Greg Jones, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John Winterton, Ann Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Kawczynski, Daniel Steen, Mr. Anthony Winterton, Sir Nicholas Cormack, Sir Patrick Keetch, Mr. Paul Streeter, Mr. Gary Yeo, Mr. Tim Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Stuart, Mr. Graham Young, rh Sir George Crabb, Mr. Stephen Key, Robert Stunell, Andrew Younger-Ross, Richard Curry, rh Mr. David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Swayne, Mr. Desmond Davey, Mr. Edward Kramer, Susan Swire, Mr. Hugo Tellers for the Ayes: Davies, David T. C. Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Syms, Mr. Robert James Duddridge and (Monmouth) Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Tapsell, Sir Peter Jeremy Wright Davies, Philip Lamb, Norman Davis, rh David Lancaster, Mr. Mark NOES Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Lansley, Mr. Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Laws, Mr. David Ainger, Nick Burnham, rh Andy Dorries, Nadine Leech, Mr. John Allen, Mr. Graham Butler, Ms Dawn Duncan, Alan Leigh, Mr. Edward Anderson, Mr. David Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Anderson, Janet Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Dunne, Mr. Philip Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Armstrong, rh Hilary Cairns, David Evans, Mr. Nigel Lidington, Mr. David Atkins, Charlotte Campbell, Mr. Alan Evennett, Mr. David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Austin, Mr. Ian Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Fabricant, Michael Luff, Peter Austin, John Caton, Mr. Martin Fallon, Mr. Michael Maclean, rh David Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cawsey, Mr. Ian Featherstone, Lynne Main, Anne Bain, Mr. William Challen, Colin Field, Mr. Mark Malins, Mr. Humfrey Baird, Vera Chapman, Ben Fox, Dr. Liam Maude, rh Mr. Francis Balls, rh Ed Clapham, Mr. Michael Francois, Mr. Mark May, rh Mrs. Theresa Banks, Gordon Clark, Ms Katy Fraser, Christopher McIntosh, Miss Anne Barlow, Ms Celia Clark, Paul Gale, Mr. Roger McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Garnier, Mr. Edward Miller, Mrs. Maria Battle, rh John Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Gauke, Mr. David Milton, Anne Bayley, Hugh Clelland, Mr. David George, Andrew Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Coaker, Mr. Vernon Gibb, Mr. Nick Moore, Mr. Michael Begg, Miss Anne Coffey, Ann Gidley, Sandra Moss, Mr. Malcolm Benn, rh Hilary Cohen, Harry Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mulholland, Greg Benton, Mr. Joe Connarty, Michael Goldsworthy, Julia Mundell, David Berry, Roger Cooper, Rosie Goodman, Mr. Paul Murrison, Dr. Andrew Betts, Mr. Clive Cooper, rh Yvette Goodwill, Mr. Robert Neill, Robert Blackman, Liz Cousins, Jim Gove, Michael Newmark, Mr. Brooks Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Crausby, Mr. David Gray, Mr. James O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Creagh, Mary Grayling, Chris Öpik, Lembit Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cryer, Mrs. Ann Greening, Justine Ottaway, Richard Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cummings, John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Paterson, Mr. Owen Borrow, Mr. David S. Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hague, rh Mr. William Penning, Mike Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cunningham, Tony Hammond, Mr. Philip Pickles, Mr. Eric Brennan, Kevin Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Hammond, Stephen Prisk, Mr. Mark Brown, Lyn David, Mr. Wayne Hancock, Mr. Mike Pritchard, Mark Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Davidson, Mr. Ian Hands, Mr. Greg Pugh, Dr. John Brown, Mr. Russell Davies, Mr. Dai Harper, Mr. Mark Randall, Mr. John Browne, rh Des Davies, Mr. Quentin Harris, Dr. Evan Redwood, rh Mr. John Buck, Ms Karen Dean, Mrs. Janet Harvey, Nick Reid, Mr. Alan Burden, Richard Denham, rh Mr. John Hayes, Mr. John Rennie, Willie Burgon, Colin Dismore, Mr. Andrew 217 Health Care in London9 MARCH 2010 Health Care in London 218

Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Straw, rh Mr. Jack Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keeley, Barbara Reed, Mr. Andy Stringer, Graham Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Alan Reed, Mr. Jamie Stuart, Ms Gisela Dowd, Jim Keen, Ann Reid, rh John Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Drew, Mr. David Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robertson, John Taylor, Ms Dari Eagle, Angela Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Taylor, Dr. Richard Eagle, Maria Kidney, Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Thomas, Mr. Gareth Efford, Clive Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Roy, Mr. Frank Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Ellman, Mrs. Louise Knight, rh Jim Roy, Lindsay Tipping, Paddy Engel, Natascha Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ruane, Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don Ennis, Jeff Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Trickett, Jon Fitzpatrick, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Russell, Christine Truswell, Mr. Paul Flello, Mr. Robert Laxton, Mr. Bob Salter, Martin Turner, Mr. Neil Flint, rh Caroline Lazarowicz, Mark Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Twigg, Derek Flynn, Paul Lepper, David Seabeck, Alison Ussher, Kitty Follett, Barbara Levitt, Tom Sharma, Mr. Virendra Vaz, rh Keith Foster, Mr. Michael Linton, Martin Shaw, Jonathan Walley, Joan (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony Sheerman, Mr. Barry Waltho, Lynda Foster, Michael Jabez Love, Mr. Andrew Sheridan, Jim Watson, Mr. Tom (Hastings and Rye) Lucas, Ian Simon, Mr. Siôn Whitehead, Dr. Alan Francis, Dr. Hywel Mackinlay, Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Wicks, rh Malcolm Gardiner, Barry MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Slaughter, Mr. Andy Williams, rh Mr. Alan George, rh Mr. Bruce Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Williams, Mrs. Betty Gerrard, Mr. Neil Malik, Mr. Shahid Smith, Ms Angela C. Wilson, Phil Gilroy, Linda Mallaber, Judy (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Winnick, Mr. David Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mann, John Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Goodman, Helen Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, Geraldine Woolas, Mr. Phil Griffith, Nia Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, rh Jacqui Wright, Mr. Anthony Griffiths, Nigel McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Snelgrove, Anne Wright, David Grogan, Mr. John McCabe, Steve Soulsby, Sir Peter Wright, Mr. Iain Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCafferty, Chris Spellar, rh Mr. John Wright, Dr. Tony Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy, Kerry Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wyatt, Derek Hall, Patrick McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Stewart, Ian Tellers for the Noes: Hamilton, Mr. David McDonagh, Siobhain Stoate, Dr. Howard Mark Tami and Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Mr. Dave Watts Hanson, rh Mr. David McGovern, Mr. Jim Harman, rh Ms Harriet McIsaac, Shona Havard, Mr. Dai McKechin, Ann Question accordingly negatived. Healey, rh John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Henderson, Mr. Doug Meacher, rh Mr. Michael That the proposed words be there added. Hendrick, Mr. Mark Meale, Mr. Alan Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Merron, Gillian Question agreed to. Heppell, Mr. John Michael, rh Alun Hesford, Stephen Miliband, rh Edward The Deputy Speaker declared the man Question, as Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Miller, Andrew amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Hill, rh Keith Mitchell, Mr. Austin Resolved, Hillier, Meg Moffatt, Laura Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mole, Chris That this House recognises that there are health inequalities, Hood, Mr. Jim Moon, Mrs. Madeleine particularly around heart disease, stroke and cancer, to be addressed Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Morden, Jessica in London; agrees that there is a need to build stronger organisations Hope, Phil Morgan, Julie which are clinically and financially sustainable and provide the best service to their local populations; recognises the importance Hopkins, Kelvin Mudie, Mr. George of the work by Lord Darzi and over 200 clinicians who undertook Howarth, rh Mr. George Munn, Meg the Healthcare for London review, which was widely supported Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, Mr. Denis and consulted on in London; recognises that trusts have worked Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, rh Mr. Jim closely with their local communities to communicate the aims of Humble, Mrs. Joan Naysmith, Dr. Doug the programme; further recognises that lives will be saved because Hutton, rh Mr. John Norris, Dan the NHS in London, supported by public consultation and following Iddon, Dr. Brian O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike review and scrutiny by local and pan-London Health Overview Illsley, Mr. Eric Olner, Mr. Bill and Scrutiny Committees, has agreed to implement new stroke Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Osborne, Sandra and trauma networks surrounding world-leading major trauma Irranca-Davies, Huw Owen, Albert centres and hyper-acute stroke units to ensure that patients receive Jackson, Glenda Palmer, Dr. Nick high quality and innovative care in centres of excellence, expected James, Mrs. Siân C. Pelling, Mr. Andrew to save approximately 500 lives a year; acknowledges that there Jenkins, Mr. Brian Plaskitt, Mr. James have already been improvements in cardiac outcomes; notes that Johnson, rh Alan Pope, Mr. Greg there must be no further changes to accident and emergency or obstetrics departments unless and until improved access to new Johnson, Ms Diana R. Pound, Stephen services is available and that any changes must be subject to full Jones, Helen Prentice, Mr. Gordon and formal public consultation; and further notes that the Government Jones, Mr. Kevan Prescott, rh Mr. John is preparing robust planning systems to ensure that NHS London Jones, Mr. Martyn Primarolo, rh Dawn is fully prepared to meet the challenges posed by the London 2012 Jowell, rh Tessa Prosser, Gwyn Olympic Games. Joyce, Mr. Eric Purchase, Mr. Ken Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rammell, Bill 219 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 220 and Suffolk) Local Government (Devon, Norfolk and will come to a point where there are real grounds for Suffolk) concern about the methodology that the Government have adopted, through the Department for Communities Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I advise the and Local Government, in assessing some of the supposed House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in benefits of the recent tranche of reorganisations, but the name of the Prime Minister, and also that an that is not necessarily the principal consideration here. eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches will apply The principal consideration is the Government’s to this debate. extraordinary behaviour in departing from their own tests and well trailed standards to produce two unitary 7.16 pm proposals that they had unequivocally rejected out of Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I beg hand as unacceptable and unable to meet two of their to move, own criteria. The intellectual—and, some might be That this House expresses grave concern at the manner in tempted to say, political—dishonesty is the principal which unitary restructuring is being imposed on local government issue that gives rise to this debate. in Devon and Norfolk; questions the legality, motivation and financial probity of restructuring in Devon and Norfolk during this pre-election period; notes that the Permanent Secretary has Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The hon. Gentleman had to seek a Ministerial Direction from the Secretary of State as is making an exceptionally good case against the to the value for money and feasibility of restructuring at this Government, but so that I can better understand the time; further notes that the Permanent Secretary has concerns view of Her Majesty’s official Opposition, will he tell regarding the legal vulnerability of current restructuring plans in me whether he is in favour of unitary authorities in the case of judicial review; cautions that distinguished academic principle, or against them? research fundamentally undermines the economic case for unitary restructuring; asserts that restructuring will place an additional cost burden on council tax payers in Devon and Norfolk; regrets Robert Neill: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly the ongoing uncertainty created in Suffolk over the restructuring well that we have said that we should not impose plans; commends much wider joint working and shared service unitary local restructuring. Imposition is the real issue, arrangements between local authorities as important ways of because unitary authorities of all political complexions delivering efficiency savings; believes it is an abuse of the democratic can work. That is not the point here: the point is the process; and calls for the draft Statutory Instruments pertaining imposition, and the imposition by unreliable and, frankly, to restructuring to be subject to a debate on the floor of the House and then for the proposals to be withdrawn. perverted criteria. This is not the first time that we have raised the issue of Norfolk and Suffolk local government restructuring Mr. Swire: Does my hon. Friend think it a complete in the House, and we make no apology for doing so yet coincidence that the only two Members who are satisfied again. It is all the more important that we take this with the situation are both members of the Labour opportunity to raise the issue on the Floor of the House party? because, for reasons that I hope we will be able to set out fairly succinctly, there is an extraordinary set of Mr. Neill: I was going to address that point in a moment, circumstances, which gives rise to a couple of the most but it seems appropriate to do so now, because I observed bizarre statutory instruments we have ever seen. a very strange thing. I was trying to work out what had happened since 2007, when the same Government —albeit Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): Shameless. with a certain change of personnel—rejected those two Robert Neill: Indeed. It is extraordinary behaviour, unitary bids on the ground that Norwich and Exeter and we can set out why. We make no bones about were not capable of meeting two of the three criteria. tabling a motion condemning in trenchant terms the I am conscious of something other than the change attitude and behaviour of the Government towards of personnel, however. The Labour party has lost one restructuring in Norfolk and Devon. third of its seats in those two cities. It has lost a It is worth reviewing a little of the background to the parliamentary seat, and a certain injustice has been present situation. Hon. Members will recall that back in shown in this world, because I have not yet mentioned 2007 the then Secretary of State invited a number of that there was also a proposal for Suffolk. It was thought local authorities to make bids for unitary status. The that there should be reorganisation in Suffolk, too, but key point is that about 26 bids were received. It was that has been shelved. The people of Suffolk are not to made clear by the then Secretary of State that they were be treated to a partial unitary reorganisation in which to be judged against five strict criteria, which have been an area is ripped out of the rest of the county—rather the basis upon which all subsequent decisions have been like bleeding chunks of Wagner, as Ernest Newman taken. It was made clear that to be successful, bids once described it—and separated off. would be expected to meet all five criteria. Particularly They are not going to have it, Instead, they are to be relevant to this case were the criteria of affordability treated to an entirely new beast: a county constitutional and value for money. convention. Nothing quite so grand as a national It is perfectly reasonable to take differing views about constitutional convention, mark you, but a new, municipal the virtues or otherwise of unitary local government. constitutional concept. All that demonstrates, however, There are unitary local authorities across the country. is that, first, the Government have exceedingly inconsistent Some of them work well and are successful. There are standards, and, secondly, there is rough justice in this two-tier areas of local government across the country—three Government. My hon. Friend was right to refer to the tiers, the parish councils would want to say—in county two most satisfied people, because if one is or was in the and shire districts, and they often work well too. That is Cabinet, one gets a unitary authority, but if one is a not necessarily the driving consideration, although I mere Under-Secretary, all one gets is a talking shop. 221 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 222 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) Mr. Charles Clarke (Norwich, South) (Lab): My Having said that they intended to find certainty, the intervention follows the hon. Gentleman’s answer to the Secretary of State in relation to Norfolk and the Minister hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). The hon. of State in relation to Devon—the Secretary of State Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) fairly set out why he should not be involved in that stated that the Conservative Opposition, if they were in matter—came, amazingly, to the same conclusion. They government, would never impose unitary government. did not go ahead with the county-wide unitary structures Did I understand that right? Is he saying that if the that had, rightly or wrongly, been the preferred view of Conservatives were in government and any district council the boundary committee for England; they did not opposed unitary status, there would never be unitary maintain the status quo, which had been ruled out but status? Would there never be any new unitary authorities might have been an option; and they did not look at any if the Conservatives were in government? other option. Instead, they decided to revert, suddenly and without any warning, to the two small city unitary Robert Neill: We have made it quite clear that we proposals that had been ruled out before, leaving the oppose imposed unitary local government, and I restate remaining counties on a two-tier basis. It was a wholly that. We oppose it because, first, it is a very significant new approach that had not been canvassed or significantly distraction, and, secondly, the benefits of joint working, consulted on. That behaviour, coupled with, as the hon. shared services and more effective service delivery are Gentleman rightly says, the expenditure of public money, being achieved in two-tier areas through collaboration triggered another fairly unprecedented development. between district councils. I shall develop that point later. It just so happens that the three counties under Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab) rose— consideration all have advanced and effective means of shared service working, which the Government choose Robert Neill: Before I come to that development, I to disregard and rip up. I have been pretty clear about shall let the hon. Gentleman come in. our position. Mr. Ronnie Campbell: I do not want to start off on Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): Shared service bad terms, but I must say that Northumberland went delivery may well be working in those counties, but through the same procedure, and we are in a right it certainly is not in Gloucestershire. What should shambles—a right mess: we are supposed to be saving Gloucestershire Members do? Many, from across the £80 million, and cutting £30 million. We had a referendum, parties, would move towards a unitary authority. and 53 per cent. of the people in Northumberland said that they did not want a single unitary authority, but Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We ought to stick to the Government imposed it. So the hon. Gentleman is Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk. going down a dark alley here, because they are going to impose it on him whether he likes it or not. That is what Robert Neill: I am very happy to follow your strictures, they did with us. Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall review what has happened since the proposals Robert Neill: There are occasions when I find myself were made. The intention was that the strict criteria in agreement with the hon. Gentleman, and he speaks should be adhered to, and it was made quite clear that from experience about Northumberland. they had not been met. Since then, however, there has been a lengthy and protracted consultation, a number I shall return to the finances, but I want to deal with of judicial reviews, the Secretary of State sought advice the latest developments, because the Secretary of State from the boundary committee for England, which came and the Minister, having decided on that wholly new up with some proposals that were clearly not palatable, departure, provoked a letter from the permanent secretary and more consultation has taken place. Finally, the at the Department for Communities and Local Minister for Regional Economic Development and Government, in his capacity as accounting officer. He Co-ordination, the right hon. Member for Doncaster, felt constrained to write to the Secretary of State, in Central (Ms Winterton), who will open for the Government effect seeking a direction, saying in terms that because in this debate, said that she and the Secretary of State of his concerns he required a direction from the Ministers would move swiftly to come to a decision and resolve in order to implement the proposals. uncertainty. All I can say is that the decision has not It is worth saying why the permanent secretary felt resolved uncertainty in Suffolk, although it may at least obliged to do that—the background being that the have resolved uncertainty for two parliamentary candidates Secretary of State and the Minister of State had to elsewhere in the country. concede, as was apparent to anyone who looked at the evidence, that the proposals still did not meet the five Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): Does the hon. criteria. Nothing had changed in that regard, but they Gentleman share my horror at the extraordinary amount had a new idea that there were now compelling grounds of public money that has been committed to the process, to permit departure from the criteria. I am glad that at which has resulted in the evidence being ignored? All the fag end of a Government there is still some inventiveness the money that both sides have spent on lobbying and left in Ministers; it is a pity that all it involves is their lawyers ought to have been spent on services for vulnerable trying to punch their way round the rules. In any event, people, particularly at a time when public services are they invented the new concept of the two compelling under enormous strain. criteria. The permanent secretary had this to say: Robert Neill: I could not agree more. It is a fairly “Whilst I understand these wider reasons, I am concerned that regrettable and bizarre state of affairs, and that brings the approach you are currently proposing makes it difficult for me me conveniently to the latest twist and turn of events. to meet the standards expected of me as Accounting Officer. 223 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 224 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Robert Neill] “there is a legitimate expectation that they will be the basis of your decisions. Yourproposed approach of implementing a unitary My main concern about your proposed course has to be value Exeter and Norwich, and not implementing a unitary council for for money for the public purse. It would impact adversely on the Suffolk would be a departure from the criteria, and whilst I financial position of the public sector as compared with the recognise you could adduce your reasons for this as public policy alternative courses of action open to you.” grounds for not meeting the legitimate expectation, my clear legal advice is that the risk of decisions for a unitary Exeter and In reference to the costings in the Secretary of State’s Norwich, and indeed for not taking action on Suffolk, being proposed version, he says: successfully challenged in judicial review proceedings is very high. “I recognise that if your proposed approach of a unitary You have been advised that there is every likelihood of such Norwich and Exeter achieves the economic gains you envisage”— judicial review proceedings being commenced”— That was one of the compelling reasons why it was and they have been. thought that economic development would be better The letter goes on: advantaged by these small city unitaries, though I note “This poses significant risks for the feasibility of successfully in parenthesis that the evidence submitted to the Merits delivering your currently intended approach. The probable nugatory of Statutory Instruments Committee in the other place expenditure which this would entail, particularly in the case of points out most compellingly that all the development Exeter and Norwich, could only exacerbate the worries I have areas and opportunities for the two cities are in fact described about value for money. And it would also put pressure outside the boundaries of the new unitaries. None the on departmental resources, altering priorities.” less, it was thought that having small unitaries would be I have deliberately read out that long passage in full, better. because it is utterly condemnatory of the Government’s The letter continues: behaviour and makes a most potent case against it. “there may be off-setting benefits to the public purse from increased jobs of extra local and national tax revenues and reduced benefit Angela Browning: The idea that we have Ministers payments. The evidence for such gains is mixed and representations serving who, having been in office for so long, do not that you have received provide no evidence to quantify such understand the responsibilities and role of an accounting benefits. I also recognise your proposed approach may open the officer in a Department is really quite dreadful. way for improved public services through the Total Place approach”— that was the second compelling reason— Robert Neill: One would have thought that some of the “but this will be dependent on the collaboration of all the Ministers concerned had been in office for long enough councils concerned and as yet there is no clear evidence of the to have got around to reading the Ladybird book of costs and benefits that may arise.” what a Minister does, but apparently not, so far.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Mr. Swire: Are we not beginning to see a theme in Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin) this? The Under-Secretary of State just described the rose— permanent secretary as an adviser, and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the right hon. Robert Neill: I am happy to give way to the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), in a bizarre outburst, Gentleman; perhaps he is going to tell me what the costs said: and benefits are. “The selective leaking of internal correspondence has confirmed the suspicions long held in Exeter (and Norwich) that London-based Mr. Austin: Is it not the case that, as a former Prime civil servants have consistently been biased against Exeter and Minister once said, advisers advise but Ministers decide? Norwich and have been firmly in the county camp.” Is the hon. Gentleman saying that if he is ever a That suggestion was completely withdrawn by the Under- Government Minister he will do only what he is told by Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, his officials, and never take a decision for himself? the hon. Member for Stevenage (Barbara Follett), who said: Robert Neill: No, but I do expect a rational Minister “All I can reiterate is that officials and Ministers in the Department to have a sound base of evidence for the decision that for Communities and Local Government behaved entirely properly they come to. and the letter was not leaked.”—[Official Report, 2 March 2010; Vol. 506, c. 228WH.] Mr. Swire rose— Are we not seeing a complete breakdown between Government and the civil service at this point? Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con) rose— Robert Neill: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is Robert Neill: Against that background of seeking a a most depressing and worrying precedent when a senior rational and sound evidence base, I will read out another Cabinet Minister apparently makes an attack on the paragraph and then give way to my hon. Friends. permanent secretary of another Minister’s Department—a mere “adviser”, who is actually, of course, the accounting The accounting officer goes on to say: officer and acting perfectly properly. “Moreover, any departure from the criteria when taking your statutory decisions also raises feasibility, as well as value for money, concerns.” Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con) rose— Feasibility is one of the grounds on which an accounting officer can, and properly should, raise the issue of a Robert Neill: Before I give way, I will make one other direction from his Minister. He continues: point, which highlights the constitutional concerns that “Whilst there is no statutory basis for the criteria”— are raised by the behaviour of the right hon. Member although everyone worked on that assumption— for Exeter in his blog—I understand that it is called 225 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 226 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) “Ben’s Brain Bubbles”—in making that assertion, which Robert Neill: I was pretty amazed when I realised that the Under-Secretary absolutely and categorically refuted. the Minister had taken time out from her doubtless All I can say is that Ben’s brain bubble will have been busy schedule to write that letter, at the very moment well and truly burst by the end of today. when I had assumed she would be carefully crafting her eloquent, reasoned, closely argued and evidence-based Mr. Bellingham: Will my hon. Friend tell the House response to the debate. Instead, she decided to write to how many requests for directions from accounting officers the local authorities in the two counties concerned to Secretaries of State there have been since the war, urging them to do what, ironically, they are already because this is obviously quite a dramatic development? doing. She extols the virtue of joint working, and she and I are at one on that. The irony is that the two counties, and indeed Suffolk, which remains in some Robert Neill: My hon. Friend has asked a question to kind of municipal limbo, are all local authorities with which I do not readily have the answer. However, I am excellent records in joint working. I shall take this told that there have only been about nine in the whole opportunity to give some examples. length of time that this Government have been in office since 1997, and this is the first such direction that has Norfolk has an excellent and detailed shared services been asked for by the Department for Communities and agreement and its LEAPP programme—lead, engage, Local Government or its predecessor bodies, so it is an aspire, perform in partnership. In Devon there is the almost unprecedented circumstance. integrated Devon concept and a series of joint local strategic partnerships, joint chief executives and joint service provision—all the things that the right hon. Mr. Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): The Lady is urging them to do, they are already doing permanent secretary is not merely an adviser in this without any need to be told by her. There is a joint respect—as accounting officer, he is exercising his legal growth point between Exeter and East Devon councils, responsibility to Parliament to account for public money. which is important for these purposes because of all the growth outside Exeter. In Suffolk there is a pathfinder Mr. Swire: His duty. scheme for joint working. Those are not local authorities that require a lecture Mr. Bacon: It is his legal responsibility and, as my from the right hon. Lady about joint working. The hon. Friend says, his duty to account for public money. letter says something about the Government’s priorities, We are familiar with the fact that Ministers in this and indeed about their timing and public relations, but I Government are used to engaging in nugatory expenditure, do not suppose we should expect otherwise. It demonstrates but does not the fact that the Minister does not understand that the Government have made, in the words of one this indicate very clearly that their time is up? response from Norfolk that I have seen, “a perverse decision”. In the words of the Saffron Housing Trust—not a particularly political body, I suspect—it was “the least Robert Neill: I could not agree more about the lack of rational choice”. understanding. The concerns that exist about the financial basis on which Ministers have made their case in relation Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): Do not the to this, and in relation to other unitary reorganisations, hon. Gentleman’s dismissive remarks show that he has a have been reinforced by Professors Chisholm and Leach complete absence of understanding of the pride that in their book, “Botched Business”, which had already such historic cities take in themselves and their wish to pretty comprehensively demolished the financial model rule themselves? Oxford is the same. that was used for previous unitary reorganisations, as alluded to by the hon. Member for Blyth Valley Robert Neill: Actually, I have a great deal of respect (Mr. Campbell). Writing recently in “Public Money and for the pride that those cities have. They have their lord Management” magazine, Professor Chisholm points out mayors, and I have been pleased to see some of the civic that a careful analysis of the transition costs self-assessed work that they do, as do the historic counties. A sensible by the new unitary authorities shows that they are balancing act has to be carried out. Pride is an important £47 million out from the transition costs asserted by the consideration, but so must be proper process and Department. In all cases, they have turned out, with one consistency with the Government’s own criteria. With or two exceptions, to be significantly higher, so the every respect, I do not remember pride being one of the methodology adopted by the Department is demonstrated, five criteria. Perhaps when the Minister opens the by significant academic research, to be significantly Government’s defence, she will tell me that that is a flawed. third compelling reason that she has managed to think of in between writing letters to local authorities up and Mr. Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): The hon. Gentleman down the country this afternoon. makes the point that there have been many developments. Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): Is he up to date with the latest one today, the letter from The hon. Gentleman talked about joint working and the Minister for Regional Economic Development and seemed to suggest that if councils had joint working Co-ordination to the leaders of the councils affected? It arrangements, they should logically merge and cease to states that be separate councils. Is that the purport of what he is “a unitary Exeter will be able to tailor public services to the needs saying? Is he saying that every council that is in a of its urban area ‘while still being able to achieve economies of partnership with another one should merge? scale that are possible under the countywide delivery of such services as adult social care and children’s services’”— Robert Neill: No, I was not saying that, and I am the very two services that Exeter will get from being a surprised that the hon. Lady could possibly interpret unitary authority. What nonsense! my comments that way. She is highly experienced in 227 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 228 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Robert Neill] Robert Neill: I do not accept that contention, taken across the county, at all. The other place’s Merits Committee local government matters, and as Chairman of the rightly concluded that the Government were adjusting Select Committee on Communities and Local Government their standards because it was unclear what they regarded I honestly think she can do herself more credit, with cross-party support as referring to. It asked whether it respect. That is clearly not what I am saying—indeed, referred to the cities or the counties. I was saying the reverse. The twists and turns have not quite finished yet. The Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD) rose— statutory instrument for the unitary authorities was of course laid in the Commons, but it was also laid in the Mr. Swire: rose— Lords, and the other place has a Select Committee on the Merits of Statutory Instruments. Generally it does Robert Neill: I apologise to my hon. Friend; I will have not make any particular report on them, but for only to make some more progress. The hon. Member for the third time that I recall, in this case the Merits Teignbridge (Richard Younger-Ross) has not come in Committee drew the special attention of the other place yet, so I give way to him. to the statutory instrument because of its concerns Richard Younger-Ross: I thank the hon. Gentleman, about it. The summary of the report of about 170 pages who has been very generous in giving way. that the Committee produced states: “The Department has proposed the creation of two unitary Is not the problem that the whole process was deeply councils…which do not conform with all of the Department’s five flawed from the very beginning? The Boundary Commission published criteria. In these circumstances we would have expected was hog-tied before it could start, because the whole the DCLG to have set out a more detailed case for the proposed county, including the cities of Plymouth and Torquay, course of action than the assertion of ‘compelling reasons’ with could not be taken into account in considering a rational little supporting evidence. The parts of the explanatory material basis for a unitary authority. It was confined to a very to which this Committee routinely looks for evidence to support a limited remit. policy proposal, in particular the Impact Assessment and the outcome of consultation, do not in our view combine to make a clear, evidence-backed case for the proposal.” Robert Neill: That is perfectly true, and having set up a questionable set of rules to start with, the Government The Merits Committee asked the Department to produce are now trying to change those rules to get themselves some evidence, but stated: off the hook. “The Department’s response…has failed to provide more robust It was interesting to see what some of the respected evidence.” local government press had to say about this issue. The It therefore concluded: Municipal Journal had a headline along the lines of “These Orders are drawn to the special attention of the House”— “Reorganisation descends into a Whitehall farce”, which the other place— is about right. A respected columnist in the Local “on the grounds that they give rise to issues of public policy likely Government Chronicle, Mark Smulian, not unreasonably to be of interest to the House and that they may imperfectly invoked the ghost of Governor Elbridge Gerry, the man achieve their policy objective.” who gave rise to the gerrymander. I regret to say that Given the rather guarded language that is used in the that is ultimately what we are talking about here—a other place, in our robust words down here we might sordid little gerrymander, carried out by Ministers to say that the Merits Committee was saying that the advance a narrow and sectional interest. They are flying process stinks. It is a departure from the norm and there against evidence and seeking to distort it when it does is no evidence for it. Ministers were asked to provide not suit them. When the rules get in their way, they seek more evidence, but what the Merits Committee got was unilaterally to change them. The Secretary of State has simply a recycling of what had already been stated, in ignored all objective criteria and pushed ahead for one which contradictions abound. reason only: the sectional interests of the Labour party are put first. That is why the permanent secretary took It was made clear at the beginning that a proposal the unusual step of requiring a direction, and why we that did not meet the five criteria would not proceed. As are now seeing a Government in a desperate situation their Lordships’ Merits Committee pointed out, the pursuing the politics of division, and pitting town against proposal being adopted is “contrary to previous practice.” country. The Committee said that it would be helpful if the DLCG would We raise this issue without any apology, and I am “give a much more explicit analysis”. making it abundantly clear that we will press the matter to a Division, so that all hon. Members can stand up to Instead, it found: be counted. The decision is not just thoroughly bad—we “The DCLG response…simply repeats the wording of the might disagree when a decision is 50:50 or 60:40—but written statement. It does not estimate any projected cost savings utterly against the weight of all evidence. It is bad for or efficiency gains.” the inhabitants of the counties and cities involved, and That sums it up—it was a blunt, almost insolent response bad because it creates a very serious constitutional to a serious piece of work by the Merits Committee of precedent indeed. For that decision to be taken in the the other House. dying days of this Parliament is close indeed to as grave an abuse of office by Ministers as I have seen in many a Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): Does long day. I am sorry to have to say this, because I have the hon. Gentleman accept that there is very strong always regarded the Ministers involved as decent and cross-party support for unitary status in Exeter? What reasonable people even though I disagree with them, have his Exeter colleagues said to him about the merits but in my judgment, the authors of that decision should of that particular case? be utterly ashamed of it. 229 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 230 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) 7.51 pm The committee was due to submit its advice by 31 December 2008, but it was unable to do so owing to a The Minister for Regional Economic Development and judicial review. The deadline for the receipt of that Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): I beg to move an advice was therefore extended three times until the amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of committee finally submitted it in December 2009. the Question and add: I therefore say to right hon. and hon. Members that the “recognises the benefits that will accrue to the people of Exeter process was in fact anything but rushed. Some would and Norwich, and to the surrounding areas of Devon and Norfolk, say that it has gone on for far too long. Indeed, many from a unitary authority in Exeter and a unitary authority in Members who came to see me thought that, and my Norwich; believes that after more than three years of public debate on these issues it is now right for Parliament to consider right hon. Friend the current Secretary of State has and finally resolve them; looks forward to debating the draft consistently made clear his intention to bring the process structural change Orders in the very near future; notes the benefit to as swift a conclusion as possible to minimise uncertainty to local people, including the substantial efficiency savings being in the areas concerned. achieved, of unitary councils established on 1 April 2009; recognises the wide support for unitary local government in Suffolk; and Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): I want to calls on the councils and right honourable and honourable Members for that county to work quickly together to reach a consensus on refer back to Norwich. Norwich had its application for a unitary solution for that area.”. unitary status turned down on its current boundaries because it could not meet the criteria laid down by the The amendment sets out why my right hon. Friend Department. Three years on, the Minister has overruled the Secretary of State and I are very clear that the the boundary committee and we have gone back to the decisions we have taken are in the best interests of the proposal of a unitary Norwich on its current boundaries. people of all the areas concerned: the people of Norfolk, Surely that is completely and utterly contradictory. including the people of Norwich; the people of Devon, including the people of Exeter; and the people of Suffolk. Ms Winterton: I will come to the reasons why, having Before I comment in more detail on the Opposition looked at all the proposals before us, we took the motion, let me remind the House of the history of the decisions we did. The hon. Gentleman came to see me. process that led to those decisions. The Government He was opposed to all forms of unitary local government issued a White Paper, “Strong and Prosperous in Norfolk. The logic of his argument is that if we Communities”, and an invitation to councils in England looked totally on cost grounds, Norfolk would revert to in October 2006, well over three years ago. These explained unitary local government. I do not understand where that local government in two-tier areas can face additional that argument is going, or what the Opposition are challenges and risks, duplication, confusion and inefficiency proposing. in the provision of services to the public. We therefore invited councils to come forward with proposals for I shall now remind the House how the Government unitary local government if they felt it was right for took the matter forward once we received the boundary their area. committee’s advice. First, we allowed a six-week period for representations to be made. The Secretary of State In January 2007, we received proposals from Exeter and I then had before us seven unitary proposals. We and Norwich city councils for unitary city councils. had the boundary committee’s recommended proposal Following careful assessment by the Department, in for a single county unitary council for Norfolk, and July 2007, the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Norwich city council’s original proposal for a unitary Friend the Member for Salford (Hazel Blears), said that Norwich; the boundary committee’s recommended proposal she was minded to implement the Exeter proposal and for a single county unitary council for Devon, and to refer the Norwich proposal to the independent boundary Exeter city council’s original proposal for a unitary committee for advice. She asked for more information Exeter; and the boundary committee’s recommended from Exeter council on the financial case. proposals for a single county unitary for Suffolk, a Following further consideration, in December 2007, proposal for a split two-county unitary, and Ipswich my right hon. Friend announced that we would be borough council’s original proposal for a unitary Ipswich. seeking the committee’s advice on the proposals for both Exeter and Norwich and made a formal request Mr. Swire: There was another suggestion, and I wonder for advice in February 2008. what happened to it. Perhaps I do not know solely because it was ruled out, but the suggestion was for an Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): If the then Secretary Exeter unitary combined with Exmouth in my constituency. of State was previously minded to proceed with Exeter’s bid, but then sought financial information before deciding Ms Winterton: That proposal did not come forward instead to refer the matter the boundary committee—at through the boundary committee process. the point the Minister just described—why did the Central to our decisions was an assessment of Secretary of State change her mind? What financial each proposal against the five criteria: affordability; information did she receive? broad cross-section of support; strategic leadership; neighbourhood empowerment; and value for money Ms Winterton: In January 2007, my right hon. Friend services. Those criteria specified outcomes that should said that she was minded to implement the proposal, be delivered if the proposed changes to unitary structures but asked for more information. On the basis of that were to be made and if the unitary proposals were to be further consideration, she said she would seek the advice implemented. Accordingly, our assessments against the of the independent boundary committee on the proposals criteria involved making prospective judgments as to for both Exeter and Norwich, and made a formal the likelihood of future outcomes being delivered. Our request in February 2008. assessment—contrary to the committee’s views—was 231 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 232 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Ms Rosie Winterton] Mr. Bacon: Is the Minister really saying that the compelling point is that services could be as good as that the alternative proposals for single county unitaries they are at present? What is compelling about having in Devon and Norfolk did not meet all the criteria. two directors of children’s services rather than one? Having considered the original proposals for Exeter What is compelling about having two directors of planning and Norwich afresh against the criteria, our assessment and transportation rather than one? What is compelling was the same as that of my right hon. Friend the then about having two heads of adult social services rather Secretary of State in December 2007—namely, that than one? How is that the potent economic reason that they too did not meet all the criteria. Having made this is the supposed rationale for this mess? assessment, we considered the merits of each proposal, giving careful consideration to the circumstances in Ms Winterton: If the Total Place approach were which there were compelling reasons to depart from the adopted— presumption that proposals that meet all the criteria are implemented and those that do not are not implemented. Chloe Smith (Norwich, North) (Con): Will the Minister explain what “Total Place” means? I, for one, am in the Mr. Bacon: I do not understand why, in the case that dark about this bit of jargon and its application to this the Minister is talking about, she appears not to be debate. concerned that the proposals departed from the criteria, when the decision that the Government have taken now Ms Winterton: Oh dear, how very disappointing. Total also departs from the criteria for reasons that, far from Place is about looking about the amount of public being compelling, appear to be utterly spurious. money that goes into an area and how efficiencies could be achieved by looking at it in the round. Local government could work with health authorities or the police authority. Ms Winterton: I am just coming to an explanation of Her party’s Front Benchers are fairly supportive of it as that. We looked at the wider consideration of the merits an approach to considering efficiencies. of each proposal. The suggestion that this is somehow a new or novel procedure is not true. In December 2007, When the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) when the then Secretary of State took her statutory came to see me, he pleaded for us to reject a unitary decisions, she approached them in the same way. She approach for the whole of Norfolk. He objects to recognised that it was in principle open to her to Norwich having unitary status, but following his logic conclude—on the basis of the information available to he should support unitary status for the whole of Norfolk. her—that all the criteria were not met, but there was Presumably, in his argument, that would avoid any none the less a good reason to implement the proposal, duplication, but that is not what he and his hon. Friends or conversely that all the criteria were met, but the said when they came to see me. proposal should not be implemented. In the event, she decided that, having regard to all the circumstances Mr. Bacon: The point is that it is possible to achieve then prevailing, it was appropriate at that time to implement the benefits without the costs, the risks and the extra the nine proposals that met the criteria and not to bureaucracy. implement those proposals that did not meet the criteria. This conclusion was made clear in the statement by the Ms Winterton: That is the judgment made by the then Minister for Local Government on 5 December hon. Gentleman, but we have made our judgment based 2007, in which he expressly explained that the basis for on our assessment of the criteria and the circumstances those decisions was the Secretary of State’s assessment that we have taken into account. We have seen that there of the proposals against the five criteria set out in the are compelling reasons for allowing Norwich and Exeter original invitation, which had the status of guidance to have unitary status. under the 2007 Act, and to which councils should have had regard when making their proposals. Robert Neill: I am grateful to the Minister for explaining This approach to decision making was reflected in how Total Place came into her reasoning, and she is the Department’s letters of 29 June and 7 December right to say that we support that approach. But against 2009 to councils in the affected areas. These letters that background, why did the House of Lords Committee made it clear that an assessment against the criteria, on the Merits of Statutory Instruments observe, after while central to our decision making, would not be the receiving the same explanation from the Department sole determinant as to whether a proposal was implemented. that she has just given to us: In contrast to the unitary proposals that we considered “The committee remains very unclear what value unitary status in 2007, we judged that the circumstances today for is supposed to add when similar initiatives have already been set up for each area. The House may wish to seek a clearer explanation Exeter and Norwich are very different, as I shall explain. from the Minister as to why the Total Place approach is considered We concluded, when looking at the merits of the proposals a compelling reason for granting each city unitary status.” in the round, that there were reasons—which we found compelling—why the unitary proposals should, despite Ms Winterton: We believe that the Total Place approach not meeting all five criteria, be implemented, given the in this case will combine leadership within the authority circumstances. with the savings that can be made. The benefits of a In the case of Norwich, that was not least because unitary Norwich for the local economy were judged to when the Total Place approach is factored into consideration outweigh the risks of affordability. of service delivery, the outcomes for services in Norwich and Norfolk could be as good as, if not better than, the Mr. Charles Clarke: Can my right hon. Friend confirm outcomes envisaged by the value-for-money services that, in the city of Norwich at the moment, public criteria. workers work either for the county or for the city, so 233 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 234 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) there are two separate human resources functions, two are doing it in the west midlands—as a substitute for separate finance functions and two separate PR functions? regional government. That is the real Opposition coming People in planning are working entirely in parallel, and out. social services and social care overlap in a wide variety of ways. Despite the merit of her letter and the advantages Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend makes a good point. in joint working, the reality is that such joint working is The other point to make is that the Conservative party not happening today, which is why unitary status would has never really grasped the importance of economic achieve savings. interventions, whether at national, regional or local level. Any idea, therefore, of the advantages that there Ms Winterton: My right hon. Friend makes an important might be for Exeter— point. That is exactly the approach that we need to take to this issue. Similarly, in relation to Exeter, I believe Mr. Swire rose— that our decision is right, not least because I judge the risks there on affordability are outweighed by the benefits Ms Winterton: I am going to press on a little, but I for the local authority. will let the hon. Gentleman in later. However, I am aware that a lot of Members want to speak. Norman Lamb: In the Minister’s explanation of what When we announced the decisions, I said that we is meant by Total Place, she talked about local government would be inviting all existing councils in Devon and working alongside the health service. Three years ago, Norfolk to work together with the Government to when the primary care trusts in Norfolk were merged to develop the new service delivery models that, with the create one primary care trust for the county, the Government advent of unitary councils for the cities, will enable lauded the fact that we now had virtually the same the best quality and more efficient public services to be boundaries for health and social care. Now that will be provided to the cities and the wider county areas. That destroyed. Where is the logic in that? is the whole point of the letter that I wrote today. I also undertook to invite all the Suffolk councils, with Ms Winterton: We considered all the reasons why the their Members of Parliament, while consulting other criteria, in nearly all the cases, were met, but we also stakeholders, to a county constitutional convention, in looked at affordability, and we believe that there are order to reach a consensus on a unitary solution for good examples—this was the point of my letter today—of that area. how we can have joint working in those circumstances. As I have said, we believe that there are compelling Mr. Swire: In the event of Exeter getting unitary reasons for our decision to depart slightly from one of status, will there be any extra money for Devon county the criteria, and that is the best outcome. council to restructure itself?

Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): The Ms Winterton: Under our proposals, implementing a right hon. Lady is coming to the compelling reasons for unitary Exeter and Norwich will cost £400,000 over departing from the criteria in relation to Exeter. What five years, but thereafter there will be a saving of £6.5 million evidence has she received demonstrating why Exeter, as a year. As I have said, my point is that we are working a unitary authority, is likely to be better than Exeter as with all the councils involved to ensure that they are part of a Devon county council at attracting inwards looking at not only the advantages that can be gained investment and economic regeneration? from Total Place, but other ways in which they can work together. When Conservative Members came to see me, Ms Winterton: When the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues they made the point over and over again about how well from Exeter city council came to see me, they presented that working together was going. I find it extraordinary a good case for why Exeter needs some of the economic that all that is being turned on its head. advantages of having unitary status in order to take some of the necessary strategic decisions. He might like Mr. Ronnie Campbell: The Minister talks about criteria. to consult his Conservative colleagues on Exeter city Returning to Northumberland, the criterion then was council about why they backed that. to save £18 million a year in golden services, but quite the opposite happened after the first year. We have had Robert Neill: Which ones? rate rises, cuts and debt up to our necks. So I do not know where these criteria come from. Everybody should Ms Winterton: The hon. Member for South-West be warned. It might come from the civil service—fair Devon (Mr. Streeter) can decide which ones he would enough—but they should be warned that the things like to consult. I am sure that he is perfectly capable of being put in front of them are a pack of lies. making that decision. Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend is so robust, and it is so refreshing to hear his contribution. I thank him for Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): It is that. not for me to interfere in counties such as Devon, but, listening to the Opposition, it strikes me that they are I turn to the representations that we received orally against unitary authorities in principle. The real reason and in meetings with effective councils and Members of they are opposed to a unitary authority at a county level Parliament from this House and the other place. is that they are opposed to regional authorities in the first place—they have always protested against them. Mr. Keith Simpson rose— So we have to see through their argument. They use collaboration with local authorities in general—they Ms Winterton: I will come back to the hon. Gentleman. 235 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 236 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Ms Rosie Winterton] solution in some form, neither of the unitary proposals that we considered to have met the criteria was supported First, let me highlight that the representations we by all the principal councils in the county. We wanted to received went beyond the question of whether the proposals try to reach a solution on the basis of consensus. would deliver the outcomes specified by the criteria. This included many issues that, in the event, we considered Several hon. Members rose— were material to our decisions on Exeter and Norwich. Representations were made that highlighted the wider Ms Winterton: I will give way to the hon. Member for economic benefits of city unitaries. For example, while South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser), because I recognising that the Exeter proposal did not meet the have not taken an intervention from him yet, but then affordability criterion, representations were made to us I want to move on quickly. that the proposal should be implemented—this goes back to my earlier point—because Exeter city council Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): I am was the driving force in the area, providing coherent listening carefully to what the Minister is saying, but if I strategic leadership on urban needs, growth and have got what she has just said right, how can the development, and that the two-tier system did not allow Government reconcile the unaffordability of the original urban residents’ views and political preferences to be Norwich city bid with the decision to take it forward heard at county level. regardless? How does she see the affordability problems Mr. Simpson rose— that were initially identified being overcome? If she could respond in detail for us all, I would be most Ms Winterton: I give way to the hon. Gentleman. grateful.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman Ms Winterton: That is exactly the point that I have intervenes, may I say that time is moving on? I understand spent about the past 20 minutes on. We have taken our the need for debate and interventions, but a number of decision based on the evidence currently before us, people who have intervened several times are also seeking which is why we judged that the economic benefits, to catch my eye. I hope that they appreciate that the combined with the Total Place approach, would give time taken in interventions means that fewer hon. Members the outcome that we wanted. will have the chance to make their own points. I hope that that is understood. Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I appreciate the Minister giving way, but could she explain why the Mr. Simpson: The case for a Norwich unitary would Government have chosen to pilot Total Place across be strengthened had it effectively been in care for about county boundaries, including in cities? The Total Place the past five or six years and had its accounts been pilot for Coventry, Warwickshire and Solihull precisely qualified. Any idea—sadly—that Norwich could provide demonstrates that the benefits accruing from the Total economic leadership is ludicrous. Only last year, the Place model are certainly not confined to just one city. chair of housing had to be sacked for incompetence and what could be best described as corruption. I am afraid Ms Winterton: I do not understand the point of that that the right hon. Lady’s main message about Norwich intervention. If the hon. Lady is saying that there are does not stack up, as the Lords Merits of Statutory benefits from Total Place—which she might like to tell Instruments Committee concluded. her hon. Friend the hon. Member for Bromley and Ms Winterton: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman Chislehurst (Robert Neill) about—it is obvious that has decided to condemn the council in that way. I must they would count in that respect. say that representations in favour of a Norwich unitary Let me now turn to the direction that the Secretary of said that the city’s urban needs were very different from State gave to the Department’s accounting officer on those of the surrounding rural county, and that only a 10 February. There are two issues that I would like to unitary city council would ensure that those specific deal with. First, the process of seeking a direction is a needs important for Norwich’s growth—for example, standard part of the administrative processes of jobs, the green knowledge economy and business growth— government, and one that recognises that accounting are recognised and addressed. Representations were officers have certain responsibilities and that Ministers’ made also made to the Secretary of State highlighting responsibilities range more widely. In short, it was proper the importance and relevance of Total Place to his for the permanent secretary, as accounting officer for decisions, as I have said. the Department, to draw attention to the fact that In short, for the proposals for Exeter and Norwich, Ministers had not chosen the option that appeared to we concluded that the benefits for the local economy him to deliver the best value for money. However, it was and how services could be delivered across the new equally proper for me and the Secretary of State to unitaries and the wider county areas in the context of adopt the approach that we have, and to set out our Total Place outweighed the risks of affordability. For reasons for those decisions. Of course my right hon. Suffolk, we concluded that we would not now take a Friend and I gave careful consideration to the permanent statutory decision on the proposals before us, but invite secretary’s advice before taking our decisions on all the all the Suffolk councils, along with their Members of proposals, recognising that accounting officers have Parliament, consulting with other stakeholders and through certain responsibilities and that Ministers’ responsibilities a county constitutional convention, to reach a consensus range more widely. on a unitary solution for that area. We reached that Let me turn to the accusation that now is not the conclusion, because it was clear from the representations right time for such important decisions to be taken that we received that although there should be a unitary because we are in some kind of pre-election period. We 237 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 238 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) need to be clear about our conventions. Until an election had got to. As has been pointed out, the advice that she is called, the Government of the day have both the duty is sending out to councils appeared in writing a few and the right to pursue and implement the policies that hours ago. I hope that we will hear a slightly more they believe are best for the people of this country. cogent argument—[HON.MEMBERS: “Andsome evidence.”] Likewise, Parliament continues to have the duty and the Absolutely. We need to hear the evidence for why these right to scrutinise those policies and, where legislation proposals had to be brought forward at this juncture provides for this, to decide whether or not to approve and rammed through before the general election. Sadly, them. It would be wrong for us at this stage not to face however, I do not think that we are any further forward up to our responsibilities and take the decisions that we than we were at the conclusion of the proceedings in have. It would be equally wrong for Parliament not now Westminster Hall. to consider them. In the meetings that right hon. and As the Minister rightly said, this has been a lengthy hon. Members attended, we were told over and over process, but the problem is that throughout it, the again, “Please take a decision quickly on this, so that goalposts have continually been moved. It started with there is an end to uncertainty.” a tight fixed time scale, and other parts of the country To conclude, we considered each of the unitary proposals wished to participate in the process at that stage. Bids before us on its merits. We did not accept any implication from those areas therefore came forward quite rapidly, that the public interest lies with adopting the cheapest but they might have been of a different nature if there option across all three counties. We adopted the approach had been more time to consider which proposals were whereby we carefully assessed each proposal against most appropriate. Those areas were under the impression the five criteria. In all circumstances we gave careful that that was the only game in town, however. It then consideration to whether there were compelling reasons transpired that that was not the case. to depart from the presumption that proposals that The next process entailed the boundary committee meet the criteria are implemented and that those that for England being asked to get involved, if the Government do not are not. were unhappy with the bids. The boundary committee then looked at the evidence and came up with proposals Richard Younger-Ross: The right hon. Lady talks for unitary counties, with which no one in the counties about the cheapest option, but that will lead to pressure concerned was happy. There really was not a huge on council budgets. Representations were made to her argument for unitary authorities in those areas. Department that such budgetary pressures would lead to an inability to employ staff of the necessary quality, Mr. Sanders: The process was flawed right from the because of being unable to pay for higher grade staff beginning. Four out of every 10 homes in the county of that other authorities can pay for. Exeter will have Devonshire were not involved in the process, because exactly the same problem that other small authorities the people who live in Plymouth and Torbay were not have had, in relation to having the right calibre of staff allowed a say, even though the proposals will have an to undertake the necessary functions. This decision is impact on them. not going to do Exeter a service; it will do it a disservice. Dan Rogerson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ms Winterton: The hon. Gentleman might like to This is the problem with the process. The hon. Member discuss this with his colleagues on Exeter city council for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) talked about who are, as I have said, strongly in favour of having the arguments for and against unitary authorities, and unitary status. he was right to say that people take different views. In We are clear that the decisions that we have taken on my view, there is a strong case for unitary government the unitary proposals for Devon and Norfolk are in the where the boundaries make sense. However, it is ludicrous best interest of the people of those areas, and that there for the boundary committee—which was not involved is a genuine local appetite for the measures. We believe at the start of the process; that was something that the that these decisions will give the cities of Exeter and Government hit upon halfway through—to draw lines Norwich the governance arrangements that are best round parts of an area and say that they should not be suited to deliver economic, social, and environmental included. success for the cities and their surrounding areas. We We should look at the case of Torbay in passing, have listened carefully to what people have said; we have because many people would describe it as a unitary considered carefully the evidence available to us; we authority that was bound to fail, because it is quite have weighed the competing cases that we have heard; small and tightly drawn. It is difficult, under any and we are confident in the judgments that we have administration, for a small unitary to deliver its services made. I therefore urge the House to reject the motion effectively, for all the reasons that hon. Members will no and support the amendment in the name of my right doubt wish to talk about tonight. hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Richard Younger-Ross: If we look at Torbay or Devon, 8.26 pm and officers working for one or the other, we see that they can work for either a small unitary authority or for Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): We find ourselves a very large county authority. Which does my hon. involved in the second instalment of a three-round Friend think will be able to pay the better salary and discussion on these proposals. Thanks to the hon. Member provide the better promotion prospects for anyone working for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson), we had an opportunity for these authorities? to discuss them in Westminster Hall last week, and the order itself will be discussed in Committee within a Dan Rogerson: That reinforces a point made in an matter of days. In Westminster Hall, however, we did earlier intervention, and I accept that there are many not have the benefit of the Minister’s view of where we factors that need to be taken into account. 239 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 240 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Dan Rogerson] case to examine the circumstances, look afresh and see what could have been done slightly better or differently. Unitaries are proposed—and indeed accepted by the As has already been pointed out, however, that offer Government—in dubious circumstances, as already was not on the table. mentioned, for two parts of the counties involved, but the third county of Suffolk, which has not yet been Mr. Bacon: We should have warned the hon. Gentleman much debated, has been offered the possibility of having before that although the right hon. Member for Norwich, a county constitutional convention. My hon. Friend the South (Mr. Clarke) looks cuddly, he is actually the sort Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) said publicly of bull who brings his own china shop with him. The at the beginning of this process that he felt that this hon. Gentleman should sup with a long spoon, but will would be a way forward for Norfolk. If people across he acknowledge that we on the Conservative Benches Norfolk had had the opportunity to make proposals are not at all surprised by what he said? As already with the prospect of gaining some measure of consensus, mentioned, we are familiar with Liberal Democrats this might well have been an entirely different exercise. whose backsides are nailed so firmly to the fence that the iron has entered their soul, and they not only say Mr. Charles Clarke: The hon. Gentleman talks about different things in different parts of the country, but, attitudes to this issue and the idea of having a convention, even more commonly, say different things at opposite so does he concede that the leader of the Liberal ends of the same street. Democrat group on Norwich city council, Councillor Brian Watkins, and his colleagues, and my Lib Dem Dan Rogerson: If the hon. Gentleman had listened to political opponent at the general election, Simon Wright— what I said earlier, he might not have risked returning to this is the 24th Lib Dem target seat in the country—both the issue of splits in his own party over these issues. strongly support the unitary option for Norwich? Will Throughout our earlier debates on the creation of unitary the hon. Gentleman support them in that? When he authorities throughout the country, we heard his colleagues decides what he is going to do tonight, will he support on the Conservative Front Bench saying that it was a them or do something that effectively stabs them in terrible process without really engaging with the fact the back in their efforts to put their views forward? that the unitary authorities that now exist in Wiltshire [Interruption.] and Shropshire were proposed by the Conservatives. The point is that people should be able to come Dan Rogerson: I think that the hon. Member for forward and present proposals for measures that will South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) is making a work in their areas, and the Government should be able point from the Back Benches, which may be on the to decide whether those proposals stack up financially. record. Different considerations will apply in different parts of It is clear that in all political parties, people have the country. Some of the larger unitary authorities may different views. For anyone active in opposition, in not meet with favour locally, even if they are more government or seeking to get there, one has to look at financially viable. all the evidence relating to the case. There are preferences Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): in certain local areas and parts of counties for particular As my hon. Friend has said, the experience of the proposals, as people feel a great loyalty to the institutions process has been difficult for all parties. I well remember to which they are elected. That is one consideration, our debates on some of the unitary authorities that now but far more importantly, we must judge how effective exist, when there were divisions between all the parties. any unitary authority created within these boundaries I think that this is a missed opportunity. If we want to would be. That is where the proposals before us are engage people in politics, should we not encourage called into question. them to unite on the changes that they want rather than being fractured over those that they do not want? Norman Lamb: My hon. Friend’s answer to the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke) was Dan Rogerson: As always, my hon. Friend has made a perfect. The reason why I put forward the case for good point. We are having this debate against the having a constitutional convention was that I could see background of a general election, rather than pushing a Stalinist process emerging that would completely ignore the issues into a future time when they could be discussed the people of Norfolk. I thought that there would no more calmly. We are working to a timetable of the process to engage people about the future of local Prime Minister’s rather than the Department’s choosing. government for our county. I am not instinctively against unitary government at all; I think that it makes a lot of Norman Lamb: I must respond to the outrageous goading sense in many ways. The problem is that the people of by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon), Norfolk have been ignored in this process, which is why whom I would almost call my hon. Friend. The it caused outrage. Conservative county group, which supported a unitary Norfolk, was opposed by Tories in district councils Dan Rogerson: I thank my hon. Friend for that across the county. The Tory party in Norfolk was split contribution. Looking at Devon, for example, it is completely down the middle, and the leader of the important to point out that the position already mentioned Conservative county council was deselected as a result in respect of Torbay and Plymouth and the surrounding of his support for a unitary authority. We will take no area was brought about under a Conservative Government. lessons from the hon. Gentleman on this issue. In those areas, the job was only half done and left hanging by the Conservative Government, whereas we Dan Rogerson: My hon. Friend has confirmed what I should have considered proposals relating to the whole said earlier. All the parties have understandably found county of Devon. There was an opportunity in Devon’s themselves having an internal debate, because people in 241 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 242 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) different parts of counties are bound to take different Department for Communities and Local Government views. It would have been more helpful if, at the start of in relation to the current round of unitary restructuring the process, everyone in the areas concerned had been is highly suspect. allowed to discuss the issues through a constitutional convention. A constitutional convention has, in fact, Dan Rogerson: That clarification is helpful—not that been proposed in Suffolk, but more for reasons of that dimension would have encouraged my hon. and desperation than might have been the case had it been right hon. Friends to have voted against the motion proposed at the outset. anyway, because we feel that common sense should reign, and we should have the opportunity to point out Mr. Swire: The hon. Gentleman mentioned division how the process has been flawed throughout. None the within parties. He will know that the Labour leader of less, I am glad of the clarification, because unitary local Devon county council, Saxon Spence, has said that the government is beneficial in areas where those who create system is unworkable in Exeter. Indeed, even some it get it right, where the boundaries are sensible, and Conservative members of Exeter city council who are in so on. favour of unitary government in principle recognise In summary, the Liberal Democrats’ position is that that this is not the time for it because of the changed although we feel that there is a case for unitary government economic circumstances, and because they see it as a in many parts of the county, the proposals being pressed party political move by the Labour party for the benefit by the Government in this unseemly way just before a of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) general election are not helpful, and we shall therefore and no one else. be happy to vote for the motion. Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman seeks to build on Several hon. Members rose— a point made by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) about potential gerrymandering. Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. May I I recall that Governor Gerry’s name was mentioned remind hon. and right hon. Members that Mr. Speaker earlier. However, I fear that the Government’s action has imposed an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench may be mistaken, because I do not think that it is contributions? I call Dr. Starkey. particularly to their advantage in either case. Hon. Members: She’s not from Norfolk! Robert Neill: Bad gerrymandering. 8.42 pm Dan Rogerson: Absolutely. It is the worst of all worlds. The Government are trying to gerrymander in a way Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): that does not work in their own interests, let alone I note, Madam Deputy Speaker, that Conservative Members anyone else’s. appear to be challenging your ruling in calling me, and I sure that they did not intend to do that and would wish Christopher Fraser: Does the hon. Gentleman accept to rephrase their sedentary comments. that the Conservatives in Norfolk are united on one When listening to the peroration of the hon. Member issue—the delivery of good services to the people of for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), I felt that Norfolk at a sensible price? Anything that adds cost is he had lost his knowledge of what had happened in the anathema to all Conservatives, whatever the level at past on local government reorganisation. I simply point which they represent people in Norfolk. out to him the experience that many of us had of the Banham reorganisation under the previous Conservative Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman was dangerously Government. Although it is true that criteria were used close to saying that they were disunited on every other then, the point is that the criteria were simply different issue. We have had quite a debate already, and the issues as the commission progressed around the country and it that seem to be resolved are that unitary authorities on was never terribly clear which set of criteria the Banham the scale proposed will have real difficulty in delivering commission was using when it came to the area in services effectively, and that there is a huge question question. mark over the process that has been followed. Local people in those areas, regardless of what their views I had direct experience of that as the then leader of may have been at the beginning of the process, will feel the Labour-controlled Oxford city council. The council that they have been served badly by that process, which came to an agreeable arrangement with the four Tory- has been done to them, as opposed to being one in controlled district councils in the rest of the county. A which they have been engaged. very civilised discussion was held and we reached an agreement, which we presented to the Banham commission, I should pick out one slight inconsistency in the on a proposal for three new unitary authorities. We Conservative position. The hon. Member for Bromley understand that although we made an excellent case—each and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) referred to academic of us had the support of all the parties within each research, in particular that by Professor Chisholm, showing council and of a very large proportion of the population that unitary local government and the transition to in each council area—at the last minute the proposal local government is problematic. A great deal of research was rejected largely because of the principled, or shows that this can work effectively, so I have a problem unprincipled, intervention of the then Member for Witney. with the motion, which in effect says that there are question marks over the whole process of transition to Other cities across the country had their own experience unitary authorities. That is not defensible. of the Banham reorganisation, when similar political considerations were considerably more powerful than Robert Neill: The point that I was making was that the stated criteria against which everybody was operating. the academic research by Professors Chisholm and Leach All the strictures given by the hon. Member for Bromley demonstrates that the methodology adopted by the and Chislehurst about the process ring rather hollow 243 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 244 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Dr. Phyllis Starkey] aware of what the leader of the Labour group of councillors on Devon county council thinks about Exeter going given that, frankly, ’twas always thus and ’twill always unitary at this point? be so. There will always be political considerations and it ill behoves Conservative Members to pretend that it Dr. Starkey: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can happens only under Labour Governments and never tell me, but I am talking about Exeter. He is talking happened under Conservative Governments. I also point about a county council that is seeking to impose its out that it was under the previous Conservative Government views on the city. He is belittling the views, published in that unitary authorities were imposed on Scotland and the local newspaper in Exeter, of two Conservative Wales without so much as a by your leave or any Members of Exeter city council. He is in danger of semblance of consultation. Pots and kettles come to suggesting that those Conservative councillors are writing mind. one thing in their local paper and saying another in I found the peroration of the hon. Member for Bromley private to other Conservative members. and Chislehurst very strange when set against the On unitary authorities in general, I have always been Conservative party’s avowed commitment to localism, a supporter of unitary authorities, including when I was which appears to have a completely different meaning the leader of Oxford city council. I am even more when it is applied to the desire of Exeter and Norwich strongly in favour of them now that I am a Member of to be unitary authorities and seems to stretch to the Parliament for Milton Keynes because I have seen the whole of a county. That is not normally what people huge difference that it has made to Milton Keynes out there believe to be localism. to have a unitary authority and not be part of Buckinghamshire, which never looked after the interests The overriding priority for the Opposition, it would of Milton Keynes, which has a wholly different population appear, is the cost of the arrangements. There is no to the rest of Buckinghamshire with a wholly different consideration for democracy. I am sure that if we scrubbed culture. every local authority in the country and, indeed, this Parliament and just had a dictatorship, it would be Cost considerations are important, but the huge benefits immensely cost-effective and hugely cheaper than the to Milton Keynes and other unitary cities of having democratic system that we operate in this country, but councils that focus singly on the issues of those urban nobody—not even the Conservatives, presumably—would areas, that are clearly accountable to the populations of pursue cost-effectiveness to that level. There is a those areas and that work with other service providers balance to be struck between democracy, localism and in those areas override mere cost considerations. I absolutely community identity, and cost. To simply say that the understand why councillors in Exeter and the majority only thing that matters is cost-effectiveness seems to of councillors in Norwich want unitary status. Unlike me not to run with the avowed commitment of the Conservative Members, I believe that those cities would Conservative party to localism. It rather suggests that benefit enormously from that focus if they were to get localism, as far as the Conservatives are concerned, is unitary status, and I do not think that the surrounding only about planning and stopping housing and not counties would be impoverished at all. Buckinghamshire much about anything else. is much happier without Milton Keynes, just as we are happier not to be part of it, and I think that the Let me turn to the issue of Exeter, as I know that at same would be the case in Exeter, Devon, Norwich least one of the Members of Parliament for Norwich and Norfolk. will doubtless speak about Norwich, if called. Opposition Members were suggesting, I think, that the Conservative councillors in Exeter were perhaps not as committed to 8.51 pm the unitary status for their city as they had been before. Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): I want to I have a letter dated 2 March, which is not very long speak on behalf of my constituents in my constituency, ago, signed by the leader of the Conservative group and which wraps around the northern outskirts of Norwich. the Conservative chairman of scrutiny resources of I have spoken on this issue in three separate debates in Exeter city council. It makes it quite clear: Westminster Hall and I am obliged to make a few “An independent Exeter, with its own government, elected by points on it now. and in touch with its own people, can make such decisions much I must say to the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, more successfully. The city’s voters will enjoy a much clearer idea South-West (Dr. Starkey) that this is not just about cost of where responsibility lies and who to go to for help and advice. and money.It is about democratic deficit, as my constituents A single-tier authority will cost less in the longer run…and were never asked their views. The Bill by which the enable the new council to focus on generating the prosperity unitary authority is being established specifically excludes which will benefit both Exeter and the surrounding county of constituents. Stakeholders, business groups and all kinds Devon.” of quangos—but not our constituents—may be consulted. That is the view of local Conservative councillors on The only test that we have ever had, although I accept Exeter city council. It is also the view of the other that it was not objective, showed that, if anything, the groups on Exeter city council and I am surprised that overwhelming majority of people in Norwich and the Opposition Members have been laughing at that and rest of Norfolk preferred the status quo. belittling the views of their colleagues in the Conservative party, who are standing up for their city of Exeter. Julia Goldsworthy: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that parish councils, which are an important part of Mr. Swire: I think that we know slightly better than local democracy as they are the closest to the communities the Chairman of the Select Committee what our councillors that they serve, have been specifically and explicitly in Exeter are thinking, and most of them think that this excluded from the process? is entirely party political and that it is not the right time, economically, to waste vast amounts of money. Is she Mr. Simpson: The hon. Lady is absolutely correct. 245 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 246 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) If the change goes ahead, certainly in Norwich—I might be some future land grab. I say that that is a shall not comment on Exeter—it will have an impact on matter for the future, and that if his party were fortunate my constituents and, I suspect, on constituents in other enough to be in office it could see the problem off at any parts of Norfolk. First, there will be disruption and time. In all seriousness, I believe that the case for many services will be duplicated. Also, the financial damage being done elsewhere has not been strongly criteria do not seem to add up. The fact that the House made. of Lords Merits Committee attempted to get further The Conservatives have argued the case for unitary details and that the Department was unable to provide authorities since 1986, when the Conservative Government them stacks that up. The process has been a disgrace abolished the Greater London Council, the Inner London from the very beginning, and Ministers have finally Education Authority and the six metropolitan county produced the orders in desperation, but it is wrong to go councils, and created 68 new urban unitaries. In 1994, ahead with them just before a general election. The the Conservatives did the same thing again in Scotland Government have no manifesto claim on this issue at and Wales, and then in England the Banham commissioners all. I suspect that the majority of people in Norfolk will —to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Milton judge the change on whether it delivers better quality Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) referred—broke down services and whether their council tax goes up. counties such as Avon, Humberside, Hereford and In an intervention on the Minister, which she kindly Worcester, and Berkshire into smaller unitaries. I am took, I said that the argument for a unitary Norwich glad to say that, from 2008, this Government have taken would be strengthened if it were a five-star council—if the process forward. it were Norfolk county council—but, sadly for the In all those cases, the key point that is not accepted people of Norwich, it is not. It has always struggled. It by the Opposition is that new authorities were created, has had poor leadership, it has not been able to manage with new councillors and officers to deal with the new its accounts and it has had all kinds of major problems. situation. That was the moment for improvement. Of I honestly cannot see that a Norfolk unitary authority course, there were historic issues, and by no stretch of will be the engine to drive forward any form of future the imagination do I seek to defend all that happened, economic expansion for Norfolk. If anything, in fact, but that new situation is what we are debating this past criteria show that it will be a sheet anchor and that evening. As a result of the changes, many unitary it will have an immediate impact on my constituents. authorities were created that were significantly smaller I shall make one final point, as I know that other than Norwich—I will not list them all now, but they hon. Members wish to speak. The Minister and her include Hartlepool, Darlington and Bracknell Forest—and colleagues have made great play of the fact that the that leads me to believe that it would be entirely possible permanent secretary is there only as an adviser but, as to establish an effective new authority for Norwich. my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) In summary, for 20 years there has been a strong and said, he is actually the accounting officer. There is continuing tide towards unitary local government. The ministerial responsibility to consider. The whole issue quality has been good, and the move has been supported should be referred to the National Audit Office and the by the Conservative as well as the Labour party. Of Public Accounts Committee, and Ministers should be course there have been many local issues—some of held responsible—both personally and financially—for them bitter—as private power bases have been dismantled these decisions. What has happened has been shown, by and uncomfortable, but necessary efficiency changes both the permanent secretary and the Merits Committee, driven through. to have got close to breaking the law. I hope that I was interested in the remarks by the hon. Member Ministers will be held personally responsible. I also for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) in that hope, in the event of a change of Government, that regard. I do not want to misinterpret him, but he made future Ministers will look into this matter and make it very clear that, if he were in office, he would propose certain that those people are held responsible. no new unitaries if they had to be imposed against the wishes of other people. I take that to be a commitment 8.55 pm that a future Conservative Government would never put in place a unitary Norfolk county council if there Mr. Charles Clarke (Norwich, South) (Lab): I am were opposition from districts in Norfolk. I also noted delighted that this debate is taking place. First of all, that he made no commitment to overturn in future any and following the remarks of the Chair of the Select decision that had been made. Committee, it is important to say that it directly affects the constituents of just three constituencies—my Mr. Bacon: The Audit Commission has described constituency of Norwich, South, and the constituencies Norwich county council’s financial management as not of Norwich, North and of Exeter. fit for purpose. Given that, I cannot understand how a There may be indirect effects on other constituencies, unitary Norwich could be the engine—what the Secretary and the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) of State called the potent force—for anything. has suggested that his might be one, but I do not believe Mr. Clarke: For three reasons. First, as I said, it will that the argument has been made. In the case of Norfolk, be a new council—that is important—all-out elected in the Opposition have to make the case that the services 2011, with new chief officers and a new situation. provided by a new Norfolk county council that is 85 per Secondly, I believe that there will be genuine economies cent. the size of the current authority would be significantly in various areas as a result of a unitary authority with less good and represent less value for constituents than services working together. Thirdly, the performance of now. I do not believe that that argument has been made. the city council over recent years has been improving In the Westminster Hall debate on this subject, the significantly from a very bad position, as the hon. hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon), in trying Gentleman and others have rightly identified. The case to answer that question, said that he thought there for unitaries is powerful. 247 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 248 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) Robert Neill: In endeavouring to be helpful, I did not I cite these four examples not just because they are want to inadvertently mislead the right hon. Gentleman. bad decisions, which they are, but because each of them I must confess that I omitted something. I should have is a decision which should properly be taken by the city stated what I have stated so many times before elsewhere: council, by people who are accountable to the electors of course, in office, we on the Conservative Benches will there, rather than by people who live as much as 50 miles reverse this ill-considered decision. away from Norwich and have absolutely no idea of the condition of life in the city that is Norwich. It is a Mr. Clarke: I am glad the hon. Gentleman has made ludicrous state of affairs. [Interruption.] Thatiswhy that clear. I thought that with great subtlety he had there is support across the whole of the city for the ducked the point and not carried it through. I thought proposals that are being made. It is not just the Labour there had been a shift of policy, so I am glad he has party—[Interruption.] It is the Liberal Democrats, the clarified that. Greens— The reason for unitary local government is that it is much more efficient than two-tier government. It is far Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. more effectively co-ordinated and coherent. The value for money that it offers is far higher, the costs are lower, Mr. Clarke: I put a simple challenge to the Opposition and the decisions taken by unitary local government are parties. Let us add up the votes cast on general election more transparent and much closer to the citizen. We day for the candidates in Norwich, South and Norwich, can see the reason for that in Norwich today with the North, according to their attitude on unitary status. I decisions being taken by the county council. The desire predict we will find that the overwhelming majority of for unitary status has been massively increased, even in votes have been cast for candidates who support unitary recent months, by a number of bad and irresponsible status in Norwich. I hope that will be honoured. That is decisions taken by the newly elected Tory county council a central point in the debate. in 2009. First, the county council has decided to close two Under the current arrangements, which the Opposition important social facilities for the elderly, the Essex support and want to maintain, those decisions will rooms and the Silver rooms. It has no idea what continue to be taken by a county council covering an commitment to give to support the frightened users of area—the county of Norfolk—with 85 per cent. of the those services or what to do with the facilities. It is in an population size of Birmingham. It is large enough to absurd position, which is so serious that the hon. Member contain the whole of Greater London twice, parts of for Norwich, North (Chloe Smith) says that she opposes the county are more than 50 miles from Norwich and it the council’s proposals—she has said that publicly—because stretches 75 miles from one end to the other. those proposals come from people who know nothing We are talking not about a tiny, coherent, local whatsoever about Norwich. community, but about a state of affairs in which people Secondly, the county council has decided to reduce do not have a purchase on the key decisions in their life. the amount of money that it gives to urban schools, Increasingly, the county council, which was elected in including in Norwich, which do not fit in with its 2009, takes decisions that take not the slightest county-wide priorities, because it is not concerned. account to the needs of my constituents. For the judicial Thirdly, unbelievably, the council has decided to turn review, it has even retained solicitors based in Tunbridge off the street lights throughout my constituency between Wells, rather than the excellent solicitors based in Norwich, midnight and 5 am, on the grounds that what is all right so much does it care about building the legal system for small rural villages is also okay for major urban in Norwich. centres. It is a ludicrous decision. It is no surprise that I have strived and supported unitary local government the decision is spreading fear across my constituency. throughout the county; I have favoured a unitary Norwich Even my Tory opponent, Councillor Anthony Little, that is based on boundaries that reflect the actual built- has started distributing leaflets expressing his concern, up area of the city, because the divergence with Norwich as he misleadingly implies that that has been a decision is greater than that of any council in the country; I have of the Labour city council rather than of the Conservative opposed a unitary Norfolk on the ground that it is far county council, because it is such a bad decision. too big to be properly responsive to local communities; and I had hoped and expected that the boundary committee Chloe Smith: The right hon. Gentleman may be aware would emerge with a proposal that commanded general that the county council is not doing as he has just support, as I believed was possible. suggested. As my hon. Friends have mentioned, that is rather more a spiel than a point. The decision on street It was an incompetent process that left the Secretary lights was delegated to the director of transportation of State with an invidious choice between a unitary planning, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows. Norfolk, which even the Conservative county council formally opposed, the status quo and a unitary Norwich Mr. Clarke: I beg your pardon. The Tory county on current boundaries. He has taken the right decision, council has decided to ask the director of planning, which should be supported in the Lobby tonight and Mike Jackson, to take the decisions because it wants to when orders are put before Parliament later on. run away from the responsibilities. It is extraordinary. My final point is that Norwich is already among the 9.6 pm top five shopping centres in the country, and we want to achieve even better shopping centres, so the decision is Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): taken—recommended by that same officer, by the way—to It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member pedestrianise the Westlegate area in my constituency, for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), but as he rightly which five Tory county councillors from out in the pointed out the whole process has been a complete sticks have said they want to block. shambles. There has been relentless political involvement 249 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 250 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) and interference in the process throughout, and that is a 9.11 pm disgrace. The role of the boundary committee is one of Mr. Anthony Wright (Great Yarmouth) (Lab): I am a quasi-judicial body, and we should be very concerned 100 per cent. behind unitary authorities. Indeed, I about such political interference in its workings. am envious of the position that Norwich finds itself in The restructuring is a political fix, at the fag end of a of being offered the opportunity to have unitary status. Parliament, to try to save the constituencies of one My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) Cabinet Minister and one former Cabinet Minister, and and I were fully supportive of a unitary authority for depressingly, as the hon. Member for North Norfolk Great Yarmouth and Waveney, but that was not to be (Norman Lamb) outlined in an intervention, the cost of the case. We held that position some 13 or 14 years ago, the process has been huge. The cost in terms of the when my hon. Friend and I were leaders of those paralysis in decision making, the diversion of management respective councils and we were told, under the Conservative time and the judicial challenges involves money that Administration, to look positively towards a unitary could have been spent on local services—on the very authority in which both those authorities would come services that the right hon. Member for Norwich, South together. We have been actively seeking the opportunity mentioned. They are under pressure because of this to take that forward, but have been prevented from Government’s woeful mismanagement of the economy, doing so. and that money could have been spent helping our I accept that in the three years that have passed with constituents. the matter going backwards and forwards in the boundary One thing that has really struck me over the past two committee, the situation has been flawed in many respects. years is the extent to which decisions, even in the west of However, we were let down very badly on the question the county, have been put off or delayed because of of why Great Yarmouth and Waveney were unacceptable uncertainty, and the Government knew that that would as a unitary authority. The boundary committee said happen. Norwich city council is still dysfunctional; it is that both local authorities were weak in political leadership financially incontinent, as my hon. Friend the Member and financial management. Opposition Members have for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) pointed out; its accounts claimed that that is so in Norwich, South. I ask the have not been properly signed off; and it has not had a Minister to respond on the opportunities that there may clean bill of health from the Audit Commission. The well be to open up the matter again following the right hon. Gentleman said that the council has improved election of a Labour Government at the next election. enormously, but only a year ago there was a very Opposition Members, including the hon. Member for serious housing scandal, so for him to say that the South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser), have said council has improved so much that it is ready to go that Norfolk county council is delivering good services. unitary beggars belief. However, the history in Great Yarmouth means that I Of all the councils in the country, Norwich city differ from that point of view. Five or six years ago, the council is the one that should not be given unitary council closed village libraries in my constituency, despite status. It has never been pro-enterprise, pro-jobs or opposition from the public and Conservatives on the pro-initiative, and for the Minister to say that something local authority. It is trying to downgrade Gorleston fire has dramatically changed since the original boundary station by taking away the retained firemen and replacing committee report, and now she is absolutely convinced them with a crew from Yarmouth fire station. That is an that this is the one council that can drive the jobs and absolute disgrace. Political opponents are trying to make enterprise agenda, is absolutely staggering. As my hon. out that it is a plan by the Labour Government, yet it is Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert down to the fire committee of Norfolk county council. Neill) pointed out, the Department’s permanent secretary, who after all is the accounting officer as well, clearly Christopher Fraser: How does the hon. Gentleman made the point that the argument in terms of jobs and justify the extra cost to the taxpayer of a new unitary the enterprise initiative is sparse and hollow. status for Norwich, which is not accepted by the rest of Looking at it from the point of view of someone who the county but which the rest of the county will be sits for a constituency in the west of the county, I have paying for? to say that people in my constituency want the status quo. They want a county council that is able to deliver Mr. Wright: I do not think that the rest of the county top-quality services. This is a beacon council—one of has put its views forward on that, and the hon. Gentleman the very best in the country—that is delivering top-quality is not justified in saying that there will be such extra services in conjunction with the two-tier system. I also costs. have a top-quality borough council in King’s Lynn in I am looking forward to somebody promoting and west Norfolk. The status quo is working well, although supporting the concept of unitary authorities. I live in it can work better, of course, through more partnerships hope that one day in the very near future Yarmouth and and joint enterprises between councils. Waveney can join together in a unitary authority and Hon. Members might have seen that the Electoral bring value for money and decent services to my constituents Commission was extremely sceptical and scathing about in Great Yarmouth and those of my hon. Friend the the postponement of the elections. I fear that if these Member for Waveney in Lowestoft. changes are forced through in the fag end of this Parliament, we will be faced with a county council that Dr. Starkey: Does my hon. Friend accept that the will lose part of its council tax-raising base, and services point that Opposition Members have made both to him will suffer in my constituency and in other constituencies. and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, This is a complete farce and a disgrace, and it has to be South (Mr. Clarke)—that the formation of a unitary stopped; we have an opportunity tonight to go into the authority in Norwich would somehow cost everybody right Lobby and stop it. else in the county much more money—can only really 251 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 252 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Dr. Starkey] to this point has been scandalous, and it has been the most appalling waste of public money. That is partly be true if the county council is taking considerably because of the evidence-building exercise by a body that more income out of Norwich to subsidise services in the the Government created to conduct the process, but we rest of the county than it is spending on services in must also take into account the money spent on lobbyists Norwich? by councils on both sides of the debate and on lawyers in legal actions and judicial reviews. All that money— Mr. Wright: My hon. Friend makes a valuable point millions of pounds—should have been spent on delivering about value for money. I do not believe that the situation services to vulnerable people in Norfolk at a time when that she describes is the case. I have a fear for the future, services in local government are under intense strain which is that a Norfolk without Norwich will leave us because of the state of public finances. It is a disgrace, somewhat devoid of democratic accountability. I am and the Government should be condemned for it. concerned that we will be left with the two-tier system in the rest of the county council area, which will still fail to Mr. Charles Clarke: The hon. Gentleman has said deliver services in my area. That said, I firmly believe in that he will use his powers to block the proposal in the concept of unitary authorities as the way forward. whatever way he can. Does he accept that in so doing, The switching off of lighting after midnight has been he will be explicitly going against the positions of the mentioned, and it is happening at a time when safety is Liberal Democrat candidate in Norwich, South and of paramount importance. Crime levels have reduced the leader of the Liberal Democrat group on Norwich extremely fast in my constituency, and the change will city council? put that in jeopardy. Where was the consultation with my constituents before the decision was taken? There Norman Lamb: One does what one believes in. I have was none whatsoever. a strongly held view that the decision is wrong and that It is time to move on. Previous Conservative it is not based on evidence. It would therefore be utterly Administrations have accepted the concept of unitary irresponsible for me, as a parliamentarian, to support authorities, and we should push ahead with this one. I the proposal, and I have no hesitation in opposing it. accept that the boundary committee has taken decisions I argued at the beginning not that we should sit on that could be questioned. I have suggested to it on the fence, as the hon. Member for South Norfolk several occasions that a unitary authority in my constituency (Mr. Bacon) outrageously suggested, but that we should would have worked extremely well, but we have to move build an agreed way forward for the future of local on from that. I support the concept that Norwich government, and there is a genuine case for people and deserves unitary status, and I believe that the rest of civic society in Norfolk contributing to the process in a Norfolk should move on and work towards unitary proper way over a reasonable period. However, the authorities in the rest of the county. Government were not interested in that. The process that they have pursued is designed to impose change 9.16 pm from on high. I appreciate that decisions must be reached, but the process did not involve people locally at all. Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): The Minister Excluding the public from the process is utterly outrageous. for Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination said that the Secretary of State had concluded that it is A constitutional convention is now proposed as a in the best interests of the people of Norfolk to go with way forward for Suffolk because—we are told—there is this proposal. I regard that as high-handed arrogance of no consensus, but that is also true in Norfolk. Only the worst sort, particularly as the people of Norfolk 3 per cent. of respondents to the consultation supported have had no opportunity at all to express our view the case for a unitary Norwich, and two thirds of through the entire process. voluntary organisations opposed the original proposals for a unitary Norwich, which came from Norwich city To take up the point made by the right hon. Member council, as did the majority of businesses, a substantial for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke), I acknowledge that number of town and parish councils, most members of there are strongly held views on both sides and that the public, and seven out of eight councils in Norfolk. some people genuinely argue with some passion for a There is no consensus in support of the proposal. unitary Norwich. I have no objection to the principle of unitary local government, although I have to correct Contrary to what the right hon. Member for Norwich, one thing that the right hon. Gentleman and the Chairman South said, the proposals have profound implications of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Milton for the rest of Norfolk. The hon. Member for Great Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey), said. They argued Yarmouth (Mr. Wright) made the point that we are that there is overwhelming evidence that unitary local creating a council that would mean one-party rule for government always produces good results; it does not. the rest of Norfolk for ever and a day. Whichever party The Audit Commission tells us that the evidence is that is, that is not good for local government or democracy; mixed. Some unitary authorities have worked very well it is an outrage. and others have not, and the most important factor is As I have said, the process should be condemned by the size of the local authority, whether it is unitary or everyone. The Government rejected the original proposal two-tier. Larger local authorities tend to perform better for a unitary Norwich on the current boundaries, and than smaller ones, which is the concern in the case yet now, following that lengthy process, we get to the of Norwich. point at which they accept it. How crazy is that? I profoundly disagree with the decision that the My key criticism, as the Liberal Democrat health Government have taken, and I will do what I can to spokesman, is that three years ago, the Government oppose and block it. It is an outrage that deserves to be lauded the fact that they were amalgamating primary dumped as quickly as possible. The process that has led care trusts so that we had close to coterminosity between 253 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 254 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) health, social care and children’s services. That was a council’s area and on South Hams district council land, good thing, and it meant better joint working between but it is a growth point for Plymouth. I have attended social services and the NHS. Three years later, as so many meetings with the regional development agency, often happens with this Government, we are moving on someone from South Hams, someone from Devon and again, destroying the arrangement that had been established someone from Plymouth, all trying to reach agreement and creating two organisations to deliver adult social on the development of that land. As it is intended to be care in Norfolk and two to deliver children’s services. the site for much of Plymouth’s growth, it would be As I have said, the evidence is that smaller councils better if that land were inside Plymouth city’s boundary. do not deliver good-quality services, and my fear is for My point is that it is much easier to try to make children’s services and services that deliver care for decisions when fewer local authorities are involved. older people if we have a small unitary Norwich alongside The Minister proposes that Exeter should have not the rest of the county. Splitting the two is a wrong two authorities—the county and Exeter district—making decision, and it should be opposed. decisions, but three local authorities, just as we have on the outskirts of Plymouth. Those will be the unitary Mr. Keith Simpson: As the Liberal health spokesman, Exeter council, Devon county council and whichever the hon. Gentleman will know that every report resulting district council covers the area. How can that be a more from the brutal death of a child invariably says that one potent force in attracting inward investment and economic of the most important factors was the duplication of regeneration? It simply does not make sense, and it is services and nobody taking responsibility. That is what definitely not a compelling reason. Instead, it is a blind we fear. leap of faith. We have also heard much about the second so-called Norman Lamb: I absolutely agree with the hon. compelling reason. The Minister has told us that a Gentleman. We must ensure that children’s services are unitary Exeter could open the way to improvements in robust, and that they are of a scale that enables them to the quality of public services, and she places great store recruit quality officers with the necessary specialisms. on the whole concept of Total Place. As we understand To destroy that in the county of Norfolk will put it, Total Place is all about different agencies and children at risk, which is a disgrace. For all the reasons Departments—health, police and local authorities— that I have expressed, I will strongly support the motion working together to deliver services to the local community. tonight, and I will do everything that I can to stop this It is about joined-up thinking, joined-up Government outrageous decision being implemented. and joined-up delivery of services. However, the Minister is now claiming that that can 9.25 pm be better achieved by a unitary council, which seems to Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): I wish defeat the purpose of Total Place. If the police, the to home in on the two compelling reasons about which health authority, councils and other agencies can work we have heard so much in the debate on this important together, so can a county council and a district council. issue, although the Government have not disclosed It is all part of joined-up thinking and the delivery of what evidence lies behind those compelling reasons. services. Citing Total Place as another reason why this The reason why Ministers felt able to depart from the decision has been taken in the face of the five prevailing criteria—[Interruption.] It is very appropriate that as I criteria does not make sense. The Minister has gone am about to speak about the situation in Exeter, the against the independent boundary committee, against Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the her predecessor’s judgment and against the advice of right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) should her permanent secretary. grace us with his presence. No wonder the permanent secretary has written such The first reason given by the Minister of State is a strong letter, which was read out earlier by my hon. economic regeneration, because, she claims, a unitary Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Exeter would be a far more potent force for delivering Neill). It is couched in civil service-speak, but those of positive outcomes, both for the city and more widely, us who have been Ministers know exactly what the than the status quo two-tier local government. What is permanent secretary is saying to the Secretary of State. the evidence for that? I asked the Minister that question He is saying, “Are you out of your mind? Do not do in an intervention, and she said that when the Exeter this, because it will be a disaster. If you proceed, you city councillors came to see her, they made a very good must instruct me in writing so that I have a get-out presentation. But that is not evidence to support the when it goes belly up, which it will.” He is saying, proposition that a unitary Exeter would be better at “Don’t do this. You’re making a huge mistake.” We have attracting inward investment and economic regeneration asked about the evidence, but answer came there none. than the situation that has prevailed for many years and It is instructive and useful to look at what has happened has been astonishingly successful over the last few years— in the rest of Devon and Cornwall in the transition to the two-tier system of Devon county council and district unitary authority government. My hon. Friend the councils working alongside it. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Angela Browning) I have some experience in this area, because much of made a few comments the other day, and in part she is the future development land for Exeter lies outside the right: it has taken time for Plymouth to settle down as a city boundaries, and in my constituency there is a place unitary authority—possibly five years. During those called Langage, which is a significant growth point for five years, a lot of taxpayers’ money was wasted. It is Plymouth. It is currently virgin land, but it is intended fair to say that it has now settled down as a unitary that factories and commercial buildings will be built, authority, and is improving and giving good value for creating many thousands of jobs and employing many money. Torbay is also improving, but it has had its of my constituents. That site is within Devon county challenges. One reason why it has not really prospered is 255 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 256 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Mr. Gary Streeter] but as we have heard during this debate, at no stage has any Minister or, indeed, anyone speaking from the that, for a unitary authority, it is very much on the small Government Benches, even attempted to outline the side. Yet Torbay is larger than Exeter, and there is no methodology, to identify the compelling reasons for guarantee that Exeter can deliver the services. Cornwall change or to show any evidence or business plan—anything has recently become a unitary authority, but it is taking that would stand up as evidence in any business a great deal of time to settle down, and the cost was far situation—to justify the proposed changes. higher than was ever anticipated. In the extraordinary letter that we received from the I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local and Local Government, the hon. Member for Stevenage Government, the hon. Member for Stevenage (Barbara (Barbara Follett), in her winding-up speech, will address Follett) this afternoon, headed “The Future of Local a point that the Minister did not mention earlier. It is Service Provision in Devon”, she kindly offered to commonly accepted that the transition to a unitary appoint a senior official to act as a champion in Whitehall authority in Exeter, if it goes ahead, will cost £25 million. for all the Devon councils. One can only hope that that Where will that money come from? It is certainly not in would be the old friend of the right hon. Member for the current coffers of Exeter city council. The proposal Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), the permanent secretary Mr. Peter is not viable, and flies in the face of common sense. Housden, who is so cynical and nervous—and on the Then we come to another point. This decision will record publicly as such—about the entire series of changes. not just affect the people of Exeter; it will profoundly We do not think that people in Devon need champions affect the people of the rest of Devon. I cannot imagine in Whitehall: they have Members of Parliament who a Devon county council without its county town—it is are championing them right now, and those seem to be like ripping the beating heart out of a living body. It mainly on the Conservative side of the House. At no is difficult to anticipate how it will continue to function, stage has a Minister accepted that the enhanced two-tier and Devon county council estimates that it will cost system is working; and, because it does not suit their every council tax payer in Devon £200 per annum naked political purposes, at no stage have Ministers more—simply to appease the Government’s strange said that for East Devon, which is about to share a chief desire to bring about this outcome. It will affect not executive and other officers with South Somerset council, only the people of Exeter but the people of Devon. the winner in all this will be the East Devon taxpayer. The Minister might say, “Youall came to see us to say Instead, through political gerrymandering, the Government that you don’t want unitary authorities in Devon. Okay, are trying to appease an existing Cabinet Minister and a but what is the right way forward?” The right way past Cabinet Minister—the only two members of the forward is staring us all in the face: co-operation between Labour party who are satisfied with what is proposed. Devon county council and the district councils, enhanced When we speak about Exeter expanding, I would be two-tier status, the sharing of services, the reduction of grateful if the Under-Secretary of State could share overheads and working together in partnership, which with the House her views on where Exeter is going to is happening more and more every year. Devon is expand. Perhaps she could have a quick word with her becoming an exemplar of how councils can operate colleague on her left to identify some areas. If she or together. The Government would have been well advised any of her colleagues take the trouble to find out, they to leave this all alone. I hope that this proposal will be will find that all the significant growth in the Devon rejected in another place—and if it is not, I hope that structure plan is outside the city—that is, outside the the law courts will throw it out. city today, and outside it even if unitary proposals go ahead for Exeter. The growth is planned to the east of 9.33 pm the M5 in my constituency, in Cranbook, a new community of at least 3,000 dwellings, which will include a 30-hectare Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): I think that I business park—Skypark—a 25-hectare science park, an find myself in a unique position in the House, in that at inter-modal freight terminal, the expansion of Exeter the forthcoming election I will be fighting a new seat, international airport and a further 500 dwellings in East and if I am successful, I will have Exeter city council, Devon, an area that covers 315 square miles, and not in East Devon district council and Devon county council Exeter, a city covering 18.5 square miles. to look after—and I am perfectly satisfied with that, We are talking about the economic benefits to our because they work extremely well together. city, but it is our county city. I share the view of my hon. I wish that we were concentrating on making life Friend the Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) better for the people of our county. The right hon. that to strip out our county city from our county is at Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), who is here today, best a dereliction of duty, at worst political vandalism. knows as well as anyone about the problems facing However, to strip out Exeter from the county will not Bicton college, in my constituency, and Exeter college, benefit the people of Exeter at this time, and it will in his, and the fiasco over the attempt by the Learning manifestly not benefit the rest of the people of Devon and Skills Council to change the conditions for the either, because as we have heard, there is no provision hardened merger of those two colleges at the last minute. for additional funding for any restructuring costs incurred That is a vital issue for East Devon. We should be by the rest of the county. It will fall to the council tax working together on such matters, rather than mucking payers to make up the deficit, and I suspect that a around at the 11th hour trying to change and gerrymander deficit will indeed be incurred in setting up Exeter as a boundaries. Nobody wants that. unitary. In the Prime Minister’s amendment, the Government Hon. Members should not take just my word for that. talk about recognising They could perhaps take the words of the leader of the “the benefits that will accrue to the people of Exeter and Norwich, Labour party on Devon county council, who was closely and to the surrounding areas of Devon and Norfolk”, involved for many years with Exeter city council. Councillor 257 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 258 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) Saxon Spence has said in evidence that there is effectively The right hon. Member for Norwich, South seems to no way that Exeter can be set up as a unitary without believe that the debate will be an election winner for central Government support. If the money is available him. In case anyone missed his contribution, I must tell to set up an Exeter unitary, and if we accept that central them that his dividing lines are probably visible with the Government support will be needed, that means, ergo, naked eye from space. The great majority of my constituents that there is Government money around somewhere. As in Norwich, North oppose the proposal. I have barely a Devon Member of Parliament who is satisfied with heard a single positive case being made for it in the the status quo, please may I bid for that money, for my street by a citizen of either Norwich city or the Broadland hard-pressed social services, for the survival of Bicton areas that I represent. That is probably on the ground of college, the only land-based agricultural college in the cost, as well as on the serious grounds of the capability south-west, for the potholes in our roads, so that people of Norwich city council—of which more in a second—and can get about, or for capping council tax, which our the lack of democratic consultation on the changes. I hard-pressed pensioners are finding it increasingly difficult agree with the comments made by many hon. Members to pay? on that. That is not just my view: if Ministers talked to I will limit myself to two points. I shall make a swift anybody representing a constituency in Devon, from point about the double-think surrounding the lack of any party other than the Government party, or to any regard for local people’s views during the Government’s Member of Parliament representing a Norfolk seat, I shambles of a journey to get to this stage. Secondly, I suspect that they would say the same. However, because shall examine in slightly more depth the capability of this Government have squandered the golden economic the existing city council to act as a preparing authority legacy that they inherited—[Laughter.] The right hon. and a future guardian for education, social services, and Member for Exeter laughs, but it is true. Otherwise, why the many other services that others have highlighted. are we in the worst recession that any of us has ever seen On consultation, the Government have ignored the or is ever likely to see in our lifetime? At the moment, Department for Communities and Local Government’s there is no money to waste on Government schemes to accounting officer. They have also ignored the boundary shore up the political careers of two Ministers—or committee. They have ignored the people, because only rather, one ex-Minister and one soon-to-be ex-Minister. 3 per cent. of those who took part in the only consultation This proposal should have no place. The Government available want this proposal for a unitary authority for have run out of time, and it will be a disgrace if they Norwich on the existing boundaries. They have also force it through. I pray that when the election eventually ignored hon. Members in this House and in the other comes, the people of Devon will recognise it for what place. The point is, however, that they believe that they it is. have consulted and gained support. 9.40 pm I shall give the House one example of that before I move on to my second point. From the Secretary of Chloe Smith (Norwich, North) (Con): My constituency State’s answer to my question at oral questions this straddles the boundary of the proposed new Norwich afternoon, I learned that the Government have “an unitary authority and the remainder of Norfolk, covering indication of support in key places”. What is that based wards of Norwich city council and Broadland district on? According to the Secretary of State, it is based on council. I believe that I have the joy to be part of what the support of three out of four political parties on the right hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Clarke) Norwich city council, the ambitious authority itself. has referred to as the trio of affected constituencies. That is not a broad cross-section of support. As Norwich I, and about 40 per cent. of my constituents, live in city council would like to suggest, the proposal has “a the city of Norwich and, in answer to the point about strong broad cross-section of support”, but that is not civic pride made by the right hon. Member for Oxford, the same thing. East (Mr. Smith), I am very proud to do so. That, The truth is that this Government have failed to hold however, has zero to do with my stance on the political, any kind of individual consultation on the orders for financial and ethical aspects of what we are debating. I Norwich. The one to which they have had access, conducted part company with my city comrade, the right hon. by the boundary committee, shows a tiny 3 per cent. in Member for Norwich, South, on his point that only favour of the proposed decision, with 85 per cent. in he and I, and the right hon. Member for Exeter favour of retaining the status quo—and my constituents (Mr. Bradshaw), have the right to comment on the agree with that. The huge majority of those constituents proposals. Opposition Members have laid out in detail, who have expressed a view to me have very little faith in many times in many different places, the economic, the proposed changes delivering anything other than a financial, social and political effects of the proposal on political fix. the remainder of the county. I suspect that that is as On the capability of Norwich city council, I share my true for Devon as it is for Norfolk. constituents’ delight and pride in living in a fine city. Following the point made by my hon. Friend the Like them, I hope that we shall soon walk away with the Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire), I do not hesitate UK city of culture prize. I put it on the record that I to note the effect of the proposal on the remainder of congratulate the city council on its work with its partners the country as well. I strongly believe that the proposal in getting us this far in the process. I do not slate the on the table in Norwich will be costly and unnecessary, council for everything it does, but I do slate it for its at a time of staggering national budget deficit. When record on the delivery of public services so far as my the interest payments on the national debt are greater constituents and I, as a resident, are concerned, as there than the schools budget, it is utterly beyond me to is more at stake than the arts. understand why anyone would spend cash on something Constituents living in the four wards of Norwich city as unnecessary, unwanted and unreasonable as these council that I represent who come to my surgeries with proposals. housing problems and wanting to reduce antisocial 259 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 260 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) [Chloe Smith] 9.48 pm Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): As we have heard, behaviour, to remove rubbish and to cope with so many the history of changing the boundaries and structures other problems, both small and large, have very little of local authorities is long and intricate, but the restructuring faith in the city council’s ability—past, present and in Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk began life back in 2007. future—to provide services of a decent quality. As events and tonight’s debate have shown, the Government’s handling of these proposals has been Mr. Bacon: They cannot even empty the bins! utterly shambolic and disingenuous. We have all heard how councils were asked to make Chloe Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for that. The proposals for the formation of unitary government, city council is on top of its ability to leave bins full and, subject to five criteria that Ministers themselves set. By as already mentioned, is well known for the failure of 2007, the Secretary of State had expressed the view that its housing department, which led to the “Greyhound the unitary proposals for Norwich, Exeter and Ipswich Opening” scandal in 2008-09, in which a senior employee were unlikely to meet all those criteria, but that alternative and other staff were allowed to move into decommissioned unitary proposals might. At that point, proposals were sheltered housing and rent at social housing rates. referred to the boundary committee. Following legal challenges and delays, as we heard, the boundary committee Dr. Starkey: Will the hon. Lady give way? finally ruled at the end of last year that the city unitary proposals should not be implemented. Chloe Smith: No, I am afraid not, as I want to make That was not good enough, and Ministers nevertheless some progress. chose to press ahead with their city unitary proposals, The Audit Commission’s report after that scandal totally ignoring the boundary committee and what it awarded the city’s services a zero rating and the council had said about Norwich and Exeter. Ministers even is undergoing challenging improvement requirements. admit that the city unitary proposals failed to meet the This year is the first for five years in which the council’s established criteria that they themselves had set for accounts have been officially approved. The city now granting unitary status. wishes the new council to focus on Ministers have argued that additional economic benefits “priorities that will maximise the future economic and social and public service improvements through Total Place development of the city”— would result from the unitary status that they wanted all well and good—including economic development, Norwich and Exeter to have. I shall deal with the co-ordinated growth strategy, educational attainment credibility of those claims shortly, but the simple fact is and aspiration, health improvement, climate change that Ministers changed the rules governing their own and sustainability, and waste collection and recycling. criteria halfway through their game. They may claim Those are all laudable, but I note that the competent that those criteria were not legal requirements set in provision of social housing is explicitly not on that list. stone, but they were certainly widely perceived as the For a city authority with a 33 per cent. proportion of basis on which unitary decisions would be made. social housing, an improvement order and a rock-bottom As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for reputation to overcome, I am concerned. Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), the Department’s Residents of the city area, myself included, do not permanent secretary said in his letter to the Secretary of want new “strategy, people and place”. They want State: housing that has no damp climbing the kitchen walls; “Whilst there is no statutory basis for the criteria, there is a they want a cashier at city hall who takes honest rent legitimate expectation that they will be the basis of your decisions.” money from honest social tenants, not one who will The Government ignored that. They are now also subject force people into direct debits, which are very difficult to legal challenges to the proposals from the county for some people on low incomes to manage, as my councils involved, and the permanent secretary believes constituents have told me; they want a council that that there is a “very high” chance that judicial review answers the phone; and they want low council tax, not a proceedings would be successful. As we have heard, the bill for costly reorganisation. Government’s handling of the process has been appalling. Put simply, current public services from this city, An additional question is whether there was any valid which wishes to be the preparing authority, is not good case for unitary proposals for Exeter and Norwich, and enough, and we do not believe that this process will there is overwhelming evidence that that was never make it better. Why should it have control of the vital the case. areas of education and social services—make-or-break Did the proposals represent value for money? As my services for the most vulnerable in my constituency— hon. Friend pointed out, the Department’s permanent because Labour in Norwich and Whitehall want to secretary did not think so. He had to write to the expand their political empire? Secretary of State requesting a direct instruction to I wrap up by observing that much has been made of undertake proposals that he considered to be unjustifiable. the “democratic deficit” by the Labour party in Norwich. Commenting on the Secretary of State’s view that the It feels in some sense that it is engaged in a David and economic benefits of city unitaries would offset any Goliath struggle against the county council. There is no additional council running costs, he said: democratic deficit apart from the one created by this “The evidence for such gains is mixed and representations that Government and their cronies. There is a deficit because you have received provide no evidence to quantify such benefits.” people are ignored. There is a deficit in our national The permanent secretary was not alone in expressing Budget. There is a deficit here in poor public services. concern. The House of Lords Merits Committee was That is my concern. doubtful about Ministers’ claims, while Devon and 261 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 262 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) Norfolk county councils criticised the claims about and Exeter. People in those proud and ancient cities value-for-money savings, also citing a lack of evidence. want, and have wanted for almost half a century, the The money spent on this process could have been channelled right to control their own affairs. These proposals are into front-line services for the communities affected. It localism carried to its logical conclusion, and I am sorry seems that everyone apart from Ministers is unconvinced that Opposition Members cannot see that. Many seem of the existence of any value-for-money benefits from to feel that there is an element of force in the proposals. the unitary proposals for Norwich and Exeter. The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) Tonight hon. Members in all parts of the House have referred to their being rammed through, thus completely repeatedly expressed concern about the proposals and ignoring the fact that the boundary committee only made clear that they are desperately keen for them to be reported to the Secretary of State on 23 December, two dropped. A future Conservative Government would years after the process had started in 2007. He also ensure that that happened. My hon. Friends the Members ignored the fact that the delay has not been caused by for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) and for East Devon the Government but by expensive and lengthy litigation (Mr. Swire) and the hon. Member for North Cornwall on the ground, which has led to the timing of the (Dan Rogerson) all said that the proposals should be Secretary of State’s decision. ditched, as indeed they should be. My right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, Interested parties have been equally scathing about South (Mr. Clarke) gave an outline of that expensive the Government’s claim that unitary structures would and lengthy process, and its background, in a contribution lead to public service improvements. Both the permanent that was both forceful and clear. The hon. Member for secretary and the House of Lords Merits Committee North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) flatly contradicted my felt that there was a distinct lack of evidence for that right hon. Friend’s assertion that this was something claim. As we heard from Members representing seats in the people in the area want, feeling that the people of Norfolk and Norwich, communities there are fundamentally Norfolk had been ignored. As someone who saw the worried about what will happen to their local services if extent of this consultation and who knows that it the plan goes ahead. We heard an excellent speech from received 2,800 representations, I simply cannot agree my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Chloe with the hon. Gentleman. Nor can I agree with the hon. Smith). She has not been in the House for many months, Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) that but she did a fantastic job in representing her constituents the creation of a unitary Norwich would not benefit this evening. Norfolk. As my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) pointed out in her It is bad enough that the Government fudged and incisive contribution, Buckinghamshire has certainly then ditched their own criteria, and that they failed to benefited from the creation of Milton Keynes. make the case for the new imagined benefits from unitary councils in Norwich and Exeter, but the proposals The hon. Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire) illustrated could have even more damaging effects. As we have the non-party-political nature of these decisions. He is heard, they could lead to a rise in council tax across the against a unitary Exeter, despite the fact that his county of Devon, and we need to see them dropped. Conservative colleagues in Exeter are for it and that I saw them. He ignored the fact that until 1974 Exeter Once again, however, we have heard from the Minister was independent of the county council and had been so that she will press ahead with these deeply unpopular for 800 years until the Conservatives changed it. We measures on the eve of a general election. This decision heard from the Opposition that the Labour leader of is born of Ministers’ ignorance of everyone. They have Devon county council is opposed to unitary change. In ignored the boundary committee, they have ignored the Norwich, the unitary proposal is supported by a coalition House of Lords Merits Committee, they have ignored of Liberal Democrats, the Green party and Labour. In their own criteria, they have ignored their own permanent Suffolk, the Conservative leader of the county council secretary, they have ignored Members of this House, strongly supports a unitary county. and, most of all, they have ignored members of the public. That is a totally unacceptable way of going The issues are not simple and it is the task of Government about the business of government. The Minister talked to weigh these matters carefully, to balance competing about the duty and rights of government, but this Prime arguments, to take a wider view in assessing the evidence Minister has no mandate. It is time for us to vote and differing claims and, finally, to reach a judgment on against this undemocratic measure. the best way forward for all concerned. That is exactly what my right hon. Friends in the ministerial team have done and they have done it in the knowledge that before 9.54 pm any unitary structure is created, these issues must be fully debated in this House and by another place. They The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for must be agreed here. In the representations today, we Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): have heard graphically from Exeter and Norwich just This has been a lively and occasionally passionate debate, how the existing system has failed them. with feelings running high in all parts of the House. Feelings are running equally high on the ground in To conclude— Exeter and Devon, in Norwich and Norfolk, and in Suffolk. The proposals have a Marmite-like quality: Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con) people either love them or hate them. Tonight we have claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). heard a great deal from those who “hate that black Question put forthwith, That the Question be now fudge kind of stuff.” put. We have heard some thoughtful contributions, but Question agreed to. most have completely ignored the fact that the proposals Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), have had huge cross-party support in both Norwich That the original words stand part of the Question. 263 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 264 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) The House divided: Ayes 191, Noes 275. Rennie, Willie Tapsell, Sir Peter Division No. 105] [9.59 pm Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Taylor, Mr. Ian Robathan, Mr. Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard Robertson, Hugh Teather, Sarah AYES Robertson, Mr. Laurence Tredinnick, David Afriyie, Adam Hammond, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Turner, Mr. Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Rowen, Paul Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Amess, Mr. David Harper, Mr. Mark Ruffley, Mr. David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Harris, Dr. Evan Russell, Bob Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Bacon, Mr. Richard Harvey, Nick Sanders, Mr. Adrian Walker, Mr. Charles Baldry, Tony Hayes, Mr. John Scott, Mr. Lee Wallace, Mr. Ben Baron, Mr. John Heald, Mr. Oliver Selous, Andrew Walter, Mr. Robert Beith, rh Sir Alan Heathcoat-Amory, rh Shapps, Grant Waterson, Mr. Nigel Bellingham, Mr. Henry Mr. David Shepherd, Mr. Richard Watkinson, Angela Benyon, Mr. Richard Hemming, John Simmonds, Mark Whittingdale, Mr. John Beresford, Sir Paul Hendry, Charles Simpson, Mr. Keith Wiggin, Bill Binley, Mr. Brian Hoban, Mr. Mark Smith, Chloe Willetts, Mr. David Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Mark Bone, Mr. Peter Hollobone, Mr. Philip Soames, Mr. Nicholas Williams, Mr. Roger Boswell, Mr. Tim Horam, Mr. John Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Williams, Stephen Bottomley, Peter Horwood, Martin Spicer, Sir Michael Willott, Jenny Brady, Mr. Graham Howell, John Spink, Bob Wilshire, Mr. David Brazier, Mr. Julian Hurd, Mr. Nick Spring, Mr. Richard Wilson, Mr. Rob Brokenshire, James Jack, rh Mr. Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Winterton, Ann Browning, Angela Jackson, Mr. Stewart Steen, Mr. Anthony Winterton, Sir Nicholas Burns, Mr. Simon Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Streeter, Mr. Gary Yeo, Mr. Tim Burrowes, Mr. David Jones, Mr. David Stuart, Mr. Graham Young, rh Sir George Burt, Alistair Kawczynski, Daniel Stunell, Andrew Younger-Ross, Richard Burt, Lorely Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Swayne, Mr. Desmond Tellers for the Ayes: Cable, Dr. Vincent Key, Robert Swire, Mr. Hugo Jeremy Wright and Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Knight, rh Mr. Greg Syms, Mr. Robert James Duddridge Carswell, Mr. Douglas Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Cash, Mr. William Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Chope, Mr. Christopher Lamb, Norman NOES Clappison, Mr. James Lancaster, Mr. Mark Ainger, Nick Campbell, Mr. Alan Clark, Greg Lansley, Mr. Andrew Allen, Mr. Graham Caton, Mr. Martin Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Leech, Mr. John Anderson, Mr. David Cawsey, Mr. Ian Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Leigh, Mr. Edward Anderson, Janet Challen, Colin Cormack, Sir Patrick Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Atkins, Charlotte Chapman, Ben Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Austin, Mr. Ian Clapham, Mr. Michael Crabb, Mr. Stephen Lidington, Mr. David Austin, John Clark, Ms Katy Curry, rh Mr. David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clark, Paul Davies, David T. C. Luff, Peter Bain, Mr. William Clarke, rh Mr. Charles (Monmouth) Maclean, rh David Baird, Vera Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Davies, Philip Main, Anne Balls, rh Ed Clelland, Mr. David Davis, rh David Malins, Mr. Humfrey Barlow, Ms Celia Coaker, Mr. Vernon Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Maude, rh Mr. Francis Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Coffey, Ann Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen May, rh Mrs. Theresa Battle, rh John Cohen, Harry Dorries, Nadine McIntosh, Miss Anne Bayley, Hugh Connarty, Michael Duncan, Alan McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, Rosie Dunne, Mr. Philip Miller, Mrs. Maria Begg, Miss Anne Cooper, rh Yvette Evans, Mr. Nigel Milton, Anne Benn, rh Hilary Cousins, Jim Evennett, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Crausby, Mr. David Fabricant, Michael Moore, Mr. Michael Berry, Roger Creagh, Mary Fallon, Mr. Michael Moss, Mr. Malcolm Betts, Mr. Clive Cruddas, Jon Farron, Tim Mulholland, Greg Blackman, Liz Cryer, Mrs. Ann Francois, Mr. Mark Mundell, David Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cummings, John Fraser, Christopher Murrison, Dr. Andrew Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Mr. Jim Gale, Mr. Roger Neill, Robert Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cunningham, Tony Garnier, Mr. Edward Newmark, Mr. Brooks Borrow, Mr. David S. David, Mr. Wayne Gauke, Mr. David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Davidson, Mr. Ian George, Andrew Öpik, Lembit Brennan, Kevin Davies, Mr. Dai Gibb, Mr. Nick Ottaway, Richard Brown, Lyn Davies, Mr. Quentin Gidley, Sandra Paterson, Mr. Owen Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Dean, Mrs. Janet Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Penning, Mike Brown, Mr. Russell Denham, rh Mr. John Goldsworthy, Julia Pickles, Mr. Eric Browne, rh Des Dobbin, Jim Goodman, Mr. Paul Prisk, Mr. Mark Buck, Ms Karen Dobson, rh Frank Goodwill, Mr. Robert Pritchard, Mark Burden, Richard Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Gray, Mr. James Pugh, Dr. John Burnham, rh Andy Doran, Mr. Frank Greening, Justine Randall, Mr. John Butler, Ms Dawn Dowd, Jim Hague, rh Mr. William Redwood, rh Mr. John Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Drew, Mr. David Hammond, Mr. Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Cairns, David Eagle, Angela 265 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 266 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) Eagle, Maria Knight, rh Jim Seabeck, Alison Tipping, Paddy Efford, Clive Kumar, Dr. Ashok Sharma, Mr. Virendra Touhig, rh Mr. Don Ellman, Mrs. Louise Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Shaw, Jonathan Trickett, Jon Engel, Natascha Lammy, rh Mr. David Sheerman, Mr. Barry Truswell, Mr. Paul Ennis, Jeff Laxton, Mr. Bob Sheridan, Jim Turner, Dr. Desmond Farrelly, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Simon, Mr. Siôn Turner, Mr. Neil Fitzpatrick, Jim Lepper, David Simpson, Alan Twigg, Derek Flello, Mr. Robert Levitt, Tom Skinner, Mr. Dennis Ussher, Kitty Flint, rh Caroline Linton, Martin Slaughter, Mr. Andy Vaz, rh Keith Flynn, Paul Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Walley, Joan Follett, Barbara Love, Mr. Andrew Smith, Ms Angela C. Waltho, Lynda Foster, Mr. Michael Lucas, Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Ward, Claire (Worcester) Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Watson, Mr. Tom Foster, Michael Jabez MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Smith, Geraldine Watts, Mr. Dave (Hastings and Rye) Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Jacqui Whitehead, Dr. Alan Francis, Dr. Hywel Malik, Mr. Shahid Snelgrove, Anne Wicks, rh Malcolm Gapes, Mike Mallaber, Judy Soulsby, Sir Peter Williams, rh Mr. Alan Gardiner, Barry Mann, John Spellar, rh Mr. John Williams, Mrs. Betty George, rh Mr. Bruce Marsden, Mr. Gordon Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wilson, Phil Gerrard, Mr. Neil Martlew, Mr. Eric Stewart, Ian Winnick, Mr. David Gilroy, Linda McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Stoate, Dr. Howard Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Godsiff, Mr. Roger McCafferty, Chris Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Woolas, Mr. Phil Goggins, rh Paul McCarthy, Kerry Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wright, Mr. Anthony Goodman, Helen McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Stringer, Graham Wright, David Griffith, Nia McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Stuart, Ms Gisela Wright, Mr. Iain Grogan, Mr. John McGovern, Mr. Jim Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wright, Dr. Tony Hain, rh Mr. Peter McGrady, Mr. Eddie Tami, Mark Wyatt, Derek Hall, Mr. Mike McIsaac, Shona Taylor, Ms Dari Hall, Patrick McKechin, Ann Thomas, Mr. Gareth Tellers for the Noes: Hamilton, Mr. David McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Thornberry, Emily Mr. Bob Blizzard and Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Meale, Mr. Alan Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Steve McCabe Hanson, rh Mr. David Merron, Gillian Harman, rh Ms Harriet Michael, rh Alun Question accordingly negatived. Havard, Mr. Dai Miliband, rh Edward Healey, rh John Miller, Andrew Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Henderson, Mr. Doug Moffatt, Laura That the proposed words be there added. Hendrick, Mr. Mark Mole, Chris The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 185. Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Heppell, Mr. John Morden, Jessica Division No. 106] [10.14 pm Hesford, Stephen Morgan, Julie Hill, rh Keith Mudie, Mr. George AYES Hillier, Meg Mullin, Mr. Chris Ainger, Nick Buck, Ms Karen Hodge, rh Margaret Munn, Meg Allen, Mr. Graham Burden, Richard Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Anderson, Mr. David Burnham, rh Andy Hood, Mr. Jim Naysmith, Dr. Doug Atkins, Charlotte Butler, Ms Dawn Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Austin, Mr. Ian Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hope, Phil Olner, Mr. Bill Austin, John Cairns, David Hopkins, Kelvin Osborne, Sandra Bailey, Mr. Adrian Campbell, Mr. Alan Howarth, rh Mr. George Owen, Albert Bain, Mr. William Caton, Mr. Martin Howells, rh Dr. Kim Palmer, Dr. Nick Baird, Vera Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Pearson, Ian Balls, rh Ed Challen, Colin Humble, Mrs. Joan Plaskitt, Mr. James Barlow, Ms Celia Chapman, Ben Iddon, Dr. Brian Pope, Mr. Greg Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Clapham, Mr. Michael Illsley, Mr. Eric Pound, Stephen Battle, rh John Clark, Ms Katy Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Prentice, Mr. Gordon Bayley, Hugh Clark, Paul Irranca-Davies, Huw Primarolo, rh Dawn Beckett, rh Margaret Clarke, rh Mr. Charles James, Mrs. Siân C. Prosser, Gwyn Begg, Miss Anne Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Jenkins, Mr. Brian Purchase, Mr. Ken Benn, rh Hilary Clelland, Mr. David Johnson, rh Alan Rammell, Bill Benton, Mr. Joe Coaker, Mr. Vernon Johnson, Ms Diana R. Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Berry, Roger Coffey, Ann Jones, Helen Reed, Mr. Andy Betts, Mr. Clive Cohen, Harry Jones, Mr. Kevan Reed, Mr. Jamie Blackman, Liz Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr. Martyn Reid, rh John Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cooper, Rosie Jowell, rh Tessa Robertson, John Blears, rh Hazel Cooper, rh Yvette Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cousins, Jim Keeley, Barbara Rooney, Mr. Terry Borrow, Mr. David S. Crausby, Mr. David Keen, Alan Roy, Mr. Frank Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Creagh, Mary Keen, Ann Roy, Lindsay Brennan, Kevin Cruddas, Jon Kemp, Mr. Fraser Ruane, Chris Brown, Lyn Cryer, Mrs. Ann Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Ruddock, Joan Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cummings, John Kidney, Mr. David Russell, Christine Brown, Mr. Russell Cunningham, Mr. Jim Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Salter, Martin Browne, rh Des Cunningham, Tony 267 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 268 and Suffolk) and Suffolk) David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Martyn Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Taylor, Ms Dari Davidson, Mr. Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rooney, Mr. Terry Thomas, Mr. Gareth Davies, Mr. Quentin Keeley, Barbara Roy, Mr. Frank Thornberry, Emily Dean, Mrs. Janet Keen, Alan Roy, Lindsay Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Denham, rh Mr. John Keen, Ann Ruane, Chris Tipping, Paddy Dobbin, Jim Kemp, Mr. Fraser Ruddock, Joan Touhig, rh Mr. Don Dobson, rh Frank Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Russell, Christine Trickett, Jon Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kidney, Mr. David Salter, Martin Truswell, Mr. Paul Doran, Mr. Frank Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Seabeck, Alison Turner, Dr. Desmond Dowd, Jim Knight, rh Jim Sharma, Mr. Virendra Turner, Mr. Neil Drew, Mr. David Kumar, Dr. Ashok Shaw, Jonathan Twigg, Derek Eagle, Angela Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Sheridan, Jim Ussher, Kitty Eagle, Maria Lammy, rh Mr. David Simon, Mr. Siôn Vaz, rh Keith Efford, Clive Laxton, Mr. Bob Simpson, Alan Walley, Joan Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr. Dennis Waltho, Lynda Engel, Natascha Lepper, David Slaughter, Mr. Andy Ward, Claire Ennis, Jeff Levitt, Tom Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Watson, Mr. Tom Farrelly, Paul Linton, Martin Smith, Ms Angela C. Watts, Mr. Dave Fitzpatrick, Jim Lloyd, Tony (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Whitehead, Dr. Alan Flello, Mr. Robert Love, Mr. Andrew Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Wicks, rh Malcolm Flint, rh Caroline Lucas, Ian Smith, Geraldine Williams, Mrs. Betty Flynn, Paul Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, rh Jacqui Wilson, Phil Follett, Barbara MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Snelgrove, Anne Winnick, Mr. David Foster, Mr. Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Soulsby, Sir Peter Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (Worcester) Malik, Mr. Shahid Spellar, rh Mr. John Woolas, Mr. Phil Foster, Michael Jabez Mallaber, Judy Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wright, Mr. Anthony (Hastings and Rye) Mann, John Stewart, Ian Wright, David Francis, Dr. Hywel Marsden, Mr. Gordon Stoate, Dr. Howard Wright, Mr. Iain Gapes, Mike Martlew, Mr. Eric Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Wright, Dr. Tony Gardiner, Barry McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wyatt, Derek George, rh Mr. Bruce McCafferty, Chris Stringer, Graham Gerrard, Mr. Neil McCarthy, Kerry Stuart, Ms Gisela Tellers for the Ayes: Gidley, Sandra McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Mr. Bob Blizzard and Gilroy, Linda McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Tami, Mark Steve McCabe Goggins, rh Paul McGrady, Mr. Eddie Goodman, Helen McIsaac, Shona NOES Griffith, Nia McKechin, Ann Grogan, Mr. John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Afriyie, Adam Davies, Mr. Dai Hain, rh Mr. Peter Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Davies, David T. C. Hall, Mr. Mike Meale, Mr. Alan Amess, Mr. David (Monmouth) Hall, Patrick Merron, Gillian Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Davies, Philip Hamilton, Mr. David Michael, rh Alun Bacon, Mr. Richard Davis, rh David Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Miliband, rh Edward Baldry, Tony Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Hanson, rh Mr. David Miller, Andrew Baron, Mr. John Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Moffatt, Laura Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorries, Nadine Havard, Mr. Dai Mole, Chris Bellingham, Mr. Henry Duncan, Alan Healey, rh John Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Benyon, Mr. Richard Dunne, Mr. Philip Henderson, Mr. Doug Morden, Jessica Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Mr. Nigel Hendrick, Mr. Mark Morgan, Julie Binley, Mr. Brian Evennett, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Mudie, Mr. George Blunt, Mr. Crispin Fabricant, Michael Heppell, Mr. John Mullin, Mr. Chris Bone, Mr. Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael Hesford, Stephen Munn, Meg Boswell, Mr. Tim Farron, Tim Hill, rh Keith Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Bottomley, Peter Francois, Mr. Mark Hillier, Meg Naysmith, Dr. Doug Brady, Mr. Graham Fraser, Christopher Hodge, rh Margaret O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Brazier, Mr. Julian Gale, Mr. Roger Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Olner, Mr. Bill Brokenshire, James Garnier, Mr. Edward Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Osborne, Sandra Browning, Angela Gauke, Mr. David Hope, Phil Owen, Albert Burns, Mr. Simon George, Andrew Hopkins, Kelvin Palmer, Dr. Nick Burrowes, Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick Howarth, rh Mr. George Pearson, Ian Burt, Alistair Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Howells, rh Dr. Kim Plaskitt, Mr. James Burt, Lorely Goodman, Mr. Paul Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Pope, Mr. Greg Cable, Dr. Vincent Goodwill, Mr. Robert Humble, Mrs. Joan Pound, Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gray, Mr. James Iddon, Dr. Brian Primarolo, rh Dawn Carswell, Mr. Douglas Greening, Justine Illsley, Mr. Eric Prosser, Gwyn Chope, Mr. Christopher Hague, rh Mr. William Irranca-Davies, Huw Purchase, Mr. Ken Clappison, Mr. James Hammond, Mr. Philip James, Mrs. Siân C. Rammell, Bill Clark, Greg Hammond, Stephen Jenkins, Mr. Brian Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hands, Mr. Greg Johnson, rh Alan Reed, Mr. Andy Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Harper, Mr. Mark Johnson, Ms Diana R. Reed, Mr. Jamie Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Harris, Dr. Evan Jones, Helen Reid, rh John Crabb, Mr. Stephen Harvey, Nick Jones, Mr. Kevan Robertson, John Curry, rh Mr. David Hayes, Mr. John 269 Local Government (Devon, Norfolk 9 MARCH 2010 270 and Suffolk) Heald, Mr. Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm to consider and finally resolve them; looks forward to debating Heathcoat-Amory, rh Robathan, Mr. Andrew the draft structural change Orders in the very near future; notes Mr. David Robertson, Hugh the benefit to local people, including the substantial efficiency Hemming, John Robertson, Mr. Laurence savings being achieved, of unitary councils established on 1 April Hendry, Charles Rogerson, Dan 2009; recognises the wide support for unitary local government in Hoban, Mr. Mark Rowen, Paul Suffolk; and calls on the councils and right honourable and Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Ruffley, Mr. David honourable Members for that county to work quickly together to Hollobone, Mr. Philip Russell, Bob reach a consensus on a unitary solution for that area. Horam, Mr. John Sanders, Mr. Adrian Horwood, Martin Scott, Mr. Lee Business without Debate Howell, John Selous, Andrew Hurd, Mr. Nick Shapps, Grant Jack, rh Mr. Michael Simmonds, Mark DELEGATED LEGISLATION Jackson, Mr. Stewart Simpson, Mr. Keith Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Smith, Chloe Order No. 118(6)), Jones, Mr. David Smith, Sir Robert Kawczynski, Daniel Soames, Mr. Nicholas CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spelman, Mrs. Caroline That the draft Protection from Tobacco (Sales from Vending Key, Robert Spicer, Sir Michael Machines) (England) Regulations 2010, which were laid before Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spink, Bob this House on 27 January, be approved.—(David Wright.) Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Spring, Mr. Richard Question agreed to. Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Stanley, rh Sir John Lamb, Norman Steen, Mr. Anthony Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Lancaster, Mr. Mark Streeter, Mr. Gary Order No. 118(6)), Lansley, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Leech, Mr. John Stunell, Andrew PUBLIC HEALTH Leigh, Mr. Edward Swayne, Mr. Desmond That the draft Tobacco Advertising and Promotion (Display of Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Swire, Mr. Hugo Prices) (England) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Syms, Mr. Robert House on 27 January, be approved.—(David Wright.) Lidington, Mr. David Tapsell, Sir Peter Question agreed to. Luff, Peter Taylor, Mr. Ian Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Maclean, rh David Taylor, Dr. Richard Order No. 118(6)), Main, Anne Teather, Sarah Malins, Mr. Humfrey Tredinnick, David ELECTRICITY Maude, rh Mr. Francis Turner, Mr. Andrew May, rh Mrs. Theresa That the draft Renewables Obligation (Amendment) Order Tyrie, Mr. Andrew 2010, which was laid before this House on 27 January, be approved.— McIntosh, Miss Anne Vara, Mr. Shailesh (David Wright.) McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Miller, Mrs. Maria Question agreed to. Milton, Anne Walker, Mr. Charles Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Wallace, Mr. Ben Order No. 118(6)), Moore, Mr. Michael Walter, Mr. Robert Moss, Mr. Malcolm Waterson, Mr. Nigel SOCIAL SECURITY Watkinson, Angela Mulholland, Greg That the draft Social Security (Contributions) (Amendment) Mundell, David Whittingdale, Mr. John Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 27 January, Murrison, Dr. Andrew Wiggin, Bill be approved.—(David Wright.) Neill, Robert Willetts, Mr. David Question agreed to. Newmark, Mr. Brooks Williams, Mark O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Williams, Mr. Roger Öpik, Lembit Williams, Stephen EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Ottaway, Richard Willott, Jenny Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Paterson, Mr. Owen Wilson, Mr. Rob Order No. 119(11)), Penning, Mike Winterton, Ann Pickles, Mr. Eric Winterton, Sir Nicholas COUNCIL DECISION:SOMALI SECURITY FORCES Prisk, Mr. Mark Yeo, Mr. Tim That this House takes note of European Union Document Pritchard, Mark Young, rh Sir George No. 5770/10, a Council Decision on a European military mission Pugh, Dr. John Younger-Ross, Richard to contribute to the training of Somali security forces; and Randall, Mr. John welcomes the Council Decision as a positive contribution to Redwood, rh Mr. John Tellers for the Noes: building peace and stability in Somalia.—(David Wright.) Reid, Mr. Alan Jeremy Wright and Question agreed to. Rennie, Willie James Duddridge

PETITION Question accordingly agreed to. The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Second Entrance to Higham Ferrers College amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31 (2)). 10.27 pm Resolved, Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): With your That this House recognises the benefits that will accrue to the people of Exeter and Norwich, and to the surrounding areas of permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a Devon and Norfolk, from a unitary authority in Exeter and a petition that has been signed by virtually every resident unitary authority in Norwich; believes that after more than three of Manor way, Duchy close and Queensway in Higham years of public debate on these issues it is now right for Parliament Ferrers. 271 Business without Debate 9 MARCH 2010 272

[Mr. Peter Bone] Petrol Filling Stations Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House The petition states: do now adjourn.—(David Wright.) The Humble Petition of residents of Higham Ferrers, Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas, 10.29 pm Sheweth that there is a massive increase in the volume of pedestrian and vehicular traffic using the Queensway, the one and Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am delighted to only access to the Ferrers Specialist Art College, Higham Ferrers; have this opportunity to address the House on the that these circumstances have resulted in significant damage to subject of business rates as they relate to petrol filling the grass verges and pathways of the nearby residential estate; stations. The issue is threatening communities up and and that the Petitioners believe that a secondary entrance to the down the country, particularly in rural areas. It may be College via the A6 bypass would considerably alleviate many of hard at first sight to understand why, and I hope during the current problems. the debate to make it crystal clear what a damaging Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House proposal the Government are putting forward and the urges the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government impact that it will have. It will not be apparent immediately, to request that Northamptonshire County Council in conjunction but it is a classic poison pill from this Government for with East Northamptonshire District Council and Higham Ferrers Parish council investigates the current problems and introduces a the next Government to inherit. proposal for a second entrance to the Higham Ferrers Specialist I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Communities Art College. and Local Government, the hon. Member for Stevenage And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. (Barbara Follett), who has made herself and her officials [P000749] available to me and members of the trade associations concerned about the matter in recent weeks. I have to confess that I am a little disappointed that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury is not here to respond, because it is he who has responded to the many letters from MPs on the subject and who has direct responsibility for the Valuation Office Agency, which is the Government agency that is handling the implementation of the business rates revaluation. The revaluation takes place every five years and is proving particularly controversial across many sectors this year, not least because the evidence base on which it is being introduced reflects the market conditions prevailing in April 2008—a peak within the commercial property cycle. The revaluation is happening to businesses that are reeling from the twin effects of the recession and the coldest winter in 31 years, which have a direct bearing on petrol filling stations. The Government’s arguments about providing real help to business would be more convincing if they were willing to take a pragmatic decision and postpone the revaluation exercise in its entirety because of those problems. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on leading on this subject, which is of exceptional importance to my constituents, particularly David Griffiths, who has seen his business rates go from just over £4,500 to £26,000. My hon. Friend will know that having a car in a rural area is not a luxury; it is a necessity. If our constituents cannot get any petrol, how on earth will they be able to go about their daily lives? I hope that he will get some sensible answers from the Minister, because this is going to be a disaster for rural communities. Mr. Dunne: I am one of my hon. Friend’s constituents, and I am glad that he mentions that petrol station, because it was the one that first brought that matter to my attention. It is my local petrol station and the only one within a 10-mile radius on the Shropshire, Herefordshire and Powys borders. If it were to close, it would have a very damaging effect on the rural residents who rely on their motor vehicles to get about, because there is very little public transport along the borders in that remote part of the countryside. That 250 per cent. increase in rateable value first brought the matter to my attention. I then undertook a survey of all 15 filling stations in my constituency to 273 Petrol Filling Stations9 MARCH 2010 Petrol Filling Stations 274 find out whether it was an isolated case or a widespread is acute—it can mean paying 10 times the amount in consequence of the revaluation. Eight of the 15 filling rates. I have seen evidence of that, and it is not unusual. stations responded, and half of those—four—indicated Ministers have received letters from hon. Members on that they were looking at increases of between 58 and both sides of the House to draw that problem to their 250 per cent. in their rateable values. All four said that if attention and to ask them for justification, of which, I that went through, they would have to cut jobs. Two regret to say, there is none. said that they would have to cease selling fuel, and two I return to my explanation of the decline in filling said that it would put them out of business. The fact stations in the UK since 1997. There were some 5,230 that 25 per cent. of the petrol stations in my constituency fewer filling stations in the UK at the end of 2009 than were likely to cease selling fuel was so significant that I at the end of 1997. There are 37 per cent. fewer places to decided to take an interest in the issue, hence my meetings fill up with petrol in England, 39 per cent. fewer in with the Minister. Wales and 22 per cent. fewer in Scotland, or some The problem is not isolated in rural Shropshire; it is 250 stations. The pace of those closures has accelerated. having an impact right across the country. It follows In the past five years alone in the west midlands, 30 per closures of filling stations throughout the past 13 years cent. of rural petrol stations have closed, which is twice under this Government. the rate of closure in urban areas. Having presided over a dramatic decline in petrol Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): stations throughout the country, the Government have My hon. Friend is making a powerful case on behalf of decided to single out the sector for special treatment at rural filling stations. Is he aware that in my constituency the hands of the VOA. For reasons that it has not tried in Wales, I have come across filling stations that are to justify at any point, the VOA has decided to change looking at business rates increases of more than 300 per the methodology for business rates calculations for each cent., and that no transitional rate relief is available to of the three different activities that take place on a them? As a consequence, numerous filling stations are petrol station forecourt. The VOA is applying that considering closure in the next few months. methodology in England and Wales, and assessors in Scotland intend to introduce a new methodology for Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I calculating business rates, but what that will be is entirely was going to come on to the lack of transitional relief in opaque at the moment. I shall therefore focus mostly on Wales. More than 111 petrol filling stations in Wales what is happening in England. have closed in the past five years. The Welsh Assembly intends to follow the flawed revaluation methodology Before I go into the details of the problems with the that I shall come on to in a moment, and it has not methodology, I should say that we are currently facing a agreed any transitional relief, unlike the situation in spike in petrol prices, which are at record levels. Last England. That will pose a particular risk to the remaining weekend, I filled up my vehicle with unleaded petrol 572 petrol stations in Wales, of which 206 are in rural and paid 120p a litre. As hon. Members will recall, the areas and are especially at risk. One of those stations last time we paid that much, the hauliers, feeling that faces an increase in its rateable value not of 300 per their businesses were not viable at that price, threatened cent., as in my hon. Friend’s example, but of 725 per to block fuel refineries. Of the 120p a litre we pay today, cent., which is the largest increase for any petrol station a 5p increase in February resulted directly from the in the United Kingdom. It would be hard to conceive of currency devaluation that we have experienced in the a Government introducing such a measure while claiming past couple of months, but a further 7p is a consequence to be providing help to business. Clearly, businesses will of Government increases in duty. have to close if they face that kind of increase. We had the 2p increase last autumn from the escalator. We had the increase in VAT from 15 per cent. to Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): I 17.5 per cent. which added almost 3p a litre to the cost congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this very important of petrol. Another 1p is going on as a result of the subject. As I am sure he is aware, petrol stations are biofuel duty rebate being phased out, and another 1p unique in that their business rates are calculated not will go on next month, again as a result of the fuel duty only on the basis of rental value, but on top of that, on escalator. When those increases are added to the currency assessments of their turnover. That is one reason why changes, it is a 12p increase that is extraneous to the they are facing such huge increases. Petrol stations are value of oil in the marketplace. the only property class that I know of that is assessed in In responses to Members of Parliament, the Government that way. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is grossly have tried to justify the change in methodology on the unfair? It is grossly unfair on small petrol stations, basis that—and I quote the Minister: particularly in rural areas, which are closing as a result. That will mean that there is even less competition, “In the last 5 years, alongside rising petrol prices and increasing turnover, the rent paid on many petrol filling stations has grown. which will mean that prices for our rural constituents It is only fair to all rate payers if this is reflected in rate bills.”—[Official will rise. Report, 20 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 384W.] Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He That argument is being used by the VOA to justify an has pre-empted remarks that I was going to make about increase in rates. But there is little evidence for that the palpable lack of equity across the retail estate. It increase in rental value because of the structure of the makes no sense at all that a convenience store operating market, although Ministers and the VOA seem to have on a forecourt faces a rateable value calculation based difficulty in comprehending that. on turnover when the convenience store around the There are now fewer than 9,000 petrol stations in the corner in the local town or village faces a rateable value UK. Roughly 2,000 of those are owned and operated by calculated only on the size of the premises. The difference the major oil companies. Some 1,000 are owned and 275 Petrol Filling Stations9 MARCH 2010 Petrol Filling Stations 276

[Mr. Dunne] for calculating rates on car washes. In 2005 that became a percentage of turnover, and was based on a banding operated by supermarkets. That leaves about 6,000 that system averaging 16 per cent. of turnover across the are operated by independents. The rental evidence on industry. The VOA has decided that that should be which the VOA is relying amounts to some 70 cases that increased to 20 per cent., without a banding system. It it feels are representative of independent fuel stations. has increased arbitrarily, and without justification, the That is less than 1 per cent. of the total of petrol percentage of turnover to which rates should apply. stations and is not a representative sample. The trade Car wash businesses are regulated, so have the added associations have not even had an opportunity to assess cost of compliance with environmental legislation, but whether it is a representative sample, even on an anonymised their competitors down the road, operating hand car basis to respect commercial confidentiality. One reason washes—often in supermarket car parks and other why the trade associations argue that it is not representative places—are not regulated or subject to rates, which is that most of the independent filling stations are means that they can undercut the car wash businesses owner-occupied, so rental premises infrequently come on the forecourts. Consequently, car wash revenues up for renewal or review. When such premises do come have declined in recent years as the hand car washes up for renewal, a goodwill value is included within the have proliferated. rental value, which is standard practice in the industry The second area of diversification has been convenience but is completely ignored by the VOA. That is why basing stores, on which, as my hon. Friend the Member for all the arguments on rental evidence is fundamentally Cotswold made clear, turnover is the basis of calculation. flawed and I urge the Minister to press the VOA to There is no reflection of the size of the premises in the justify that approach, which does not stand up to 2010 revaluation. Instead, the calculation is based on independent scrutiny. When the results of the revaluation increasing bands of turnover, capped at £2 million. Of are challenged in rating appeals, which seems inevitable course, that is of considerable benefit to supermarkets in view of the scale of the increases, it will be on thin ice with petrol stations adjacent to their car parks, because when trying to justify the changes. invariably their turnover is much higher than £2 million, The valuation methodology is flawed. As my hon. which means that they are not subject to the same rates. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) They have a protection not available to small independent has said, turnover is being used as the primary criterion businesses. The valuation based on turnover gives rise for calculating rateable value. That approach was introduced to rateable values much higher than those applying to in the 2005 valuation, and it has subsequently been other convenience stores trading around the corner, further distorted by the 2010 revaluation methodology, which are subject to valuation based on area. The VOA which assumes an increased margin on fuel sales. That has made no attempts to justify those changes in its fails to take into account changing market dynamics, methodologies, and is relying entirely on evidence that, whereby the growth of low-cost supermarket fuel outlets as I have said already, is not representative. has depressed the profit margins of independent retailers, I now turn to the impact of the changes. In answer to which has forced them to diversify to stay in business. a parliamentary question from my hon. Friend the They have tended to convert their original kiosks into Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), the convenience stores. More and more of the space on the Government admitted that more than 3,000 petrol filling forecourt has been made over to convenience stores, stations in England—a third of the total—are facing an because the margins available to the independent sector increase in their rateable values of more than 50 per from selling fuel are substantially lower than they are cent. Half of them, 1,510, to be precise, are facing for the supermarkets or major oil companies. That increases of more than 100 per cent.—double the rateable point is ignored by the VOA when it makes its calculations. value—this year. I have come across one business facing It also ignores the fact that the margins on unleaded an increase of 450 per cent., and I have referred to another and diesel differ substantially. I have received evidence in Wales that is facing an increase of 725 per cent. suggesting that the margins on unleaded petrol for a The significance in my constituency, as I have said, is typical independent business are roughly double that on that several operators in rural areas are likely to cease diesel, and yet the average for the entire industry is selling fuel. Some of them, including my own local taken by the VOA as appropriate, when clearly it is not. garage, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the That is another matter that will come out in the rating Member for Leominster (Bill Wiggin), regard the sale appeals. of fuel as a social service for the community. Mine is The average rateable margin from fuel throughput hardly making money out of it, but providing the estimated by the VOA is therefore much too high for service to attract people to the shop. It is a long-standing independent operators, who not only suffer from a lack activity that the proprietor recognises is vital to the of purchasing power without any economies of scale, local area. but incur much higher credit costs from suppliers, and The Valuation Office Agency is beginning to realise higher costs of fuel cards from customers, both of that a problem is brewing, and not just in the level of which are not suffered by oil majors or supermarket appeals. It is also aware that the situation will lead to competitors. It also fails to take into account the higher significant closures. In fact, the official from the VOA in marketing and distribution costs that independent the west midlands has told one proprietor in my area operators have to pay the oil companies to receive their that if the revaluation goes through, the economically fuel. That particularly applies in the more peripheral logical conclusion would be to stop selling fuel. Not parts of the country, because it obviously costs more to only would that lead to a significant reduction in the take the fuel longer distances. Government’s income from rates based on fuel sales, As a result, businesses have tended to diversify, as I but the rates on the residual shop businesses would have said, into two areas—car washes and convenience revert to a normal area basis, and therefore be significantly stores. The VOA decided in 2010 to change the basis lower, which would be self-defeating for the VOA. 277 Petrol Filling Stations9 MARCH 2010 Petrol Filling Stations 278

Another petrol station—this is my final point—has suggested, that would hit some businesses that are doing already had an approach from the VOA to halve its much less well. It is a redistribution, and I do understand proposed increase. Will the Minister say whether that is that it will involve winners and losers. The hon. Gentleman an isolated case? Does the VOA know that it has made a has spoken eloquently tonight about some of the losers. mistake, and is it therefore seeking to negotiate deals? If The next revaluation will take effect from 1 April 2010, so, how many deals is it negotiating? Does the Minister and it will be based on rental values at 1 April 2008. The accept that that is a methodology that has to change? property market has changed a great deal since April Having said that that was my final point, I have one 2008, but the multiplier has been brought down to its more point to make, picking up on the point about lowest level in 17 years to try to iron that out. transitional relief—if you will indulge me, Mr. Speaker. Rates liability and rateable value are not the same The Minister and the VOA are hiding behind transitional thing, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Rateable values relief. They have put a cap of 11 per cent. on the can rise, but rates liability is capped by the transitional increase in the cash cost of rates to businesses, but we relief scheme, which, despite what he says, is not a have examples of petrol stations facing much larger Gordon Brown scheme. It is built in. The scheme—which, increases in the first year, and it is no coincidence that sadly, is not available in Wales—has been built in to try transitional relief applies in this, an election year. The to cap the rises, which can be steep in the areas where escalation of rateable value increases kicks in faster in there are losers; they are not particularly steep in the subsequent years, with increases of 25 per cent. a year areas where there are winners. Smaller businesses will in the final two years of the five-year transitional scheme—a see their rates capped at 3.5 per cent., and larger legacy that is a classic Gordon Brown poison pill for an businesses at 11 per cent. That relief will help about incoming Government. The large tax rises will occur in 500,000 business properties with their rates liabilities two to four years, so closures are most likely to fall on in 2010-11. the next Government’s watch. Mr. Clifton-Brown: Will the Minister give way? 10.52 pm Barbara Follett: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for me, I will not. I have only three minutes left, and I am Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): I worried that I will not fit everything in. I apologise, congratulate the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) especially as I am already a disappointment for not on securing this evening’s debate, and thank him for being a Treasury Minister. raising some important points about how petrol filling On petrol filling stations, I understand exactly the stations are rated and the methodology behind that concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Ludlow rating, particularly as part of the rating revaluation for about the Valuation Office Agency’s methodology, and 2010. I also thank the hon. Members for Cotswold I will explore that matter in more detail with the Treasury, (Mr. Clifton-Brown), for Leominster (Bill Wiggin) and and perhaps with the hon. Gentleman himself. It is for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) for raising other important to note that the Valuation Office Agency points, which I have noted. does not set the method, but follows industry practices. As the hon. Member for Ludlow knows, the detail of It has engaged with bodies such as the United Kingdom how petrol filling stations are rated is extremely complex, Petroleum Industry Association to gain a better so if he will permit me, I should like to run through how understanding of the petrol filling station market. the business rates system, and revaluations, operate. The Valuation Office Agency examined 1,300 rents The business rates system, which has been in its current for petrol filling stations. Although some of those rents form since 1990, is designed to ensure that the burden of were from oil companies and sites run by hypermarkets, this tax is equitably distributed across all non-domestic many related to independent and rural sites. The agency ratepayers. It is estimated that business rates will raise has analysed the information on rents by reference to £21 billion in 2009-10. All that revenue goes back to the throughput found at petrol stations. I should like to fund local government services such as education, planning tell the hon. Member for Cotswold that throughput is and transport. used because we believe that it is a better guide to value Business rates are a tax on property that is capable of than size, and this is the practice of the petrol filling beneficial occupation, and they are mainly based on the station market. This approach is not new, and it reflects hypothetical rent that a property could attract at a actual practice in the market when private sector surveyors specific point in time. In this year’s revaluation, that negotiate rents for petrol filling stations. Some petrol point in time is a problem. The better the location, or filling stations will face increases in rateable values, the better the amenities that a property provides, the thanks to rises in rents. However, the revaluation will greater the rent that it could attract. That is reflected in also ensure that 960 petrol filling stations will receive the increased rates that a business is liable to pay. As the reductions in their rates liabilities. hon. Gentleman knows well, the calculation of business It is right that the Valuation Office Agency should rates liability is based on the rateable value multiplied assess rateable values independently, because that maintains by a figure linked to annual inflation based on the retail fairness and transparency in the rating system. That is prices index, which is negative for 2010-11; that reduces why Ministers do not intervene. There is an appeals rates liabilities somewhat. system which provides the appropriate avenue for any The hon. Gentleman asked why we did not defer the sector— revaluation, but regular revaluations are an important part of the rating system, as they help to maintain 10.59 pm fairness by rebalancing the burden within the overall House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order envelope. If we were to defer the revaluation, as he has No. 9(7)).

1WH 9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 2WH

As The Observer reported in January, plans published Westminster Hall by the Department for Transport will soon make it an offence purely to be the registered keeper of an uninsured vehicle, with fines of up to £1,000 being imposed even if Tuesday 9 March 2010 the vehicle is not being driven. On top of that, the bad weather that we have had this year and the poor gritting that has taken place throughout the entire country have [MR.ERIC MARTLEW in the Chair] meant that there has been a lot of accidents. No doubt, insurance premiums will rise again. Motoring Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): I have be now adjourned.—(Mark Tami.) been listening to the hon. Gentleman carefully. He is attacking the idea of forcing people to have car insurance. 9.30 am How would he deal with the fact that there are up to 2 million uninsured motorists driving on our roads, Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): It is a delight which is a risk for all of us? He has got an analysis, but to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Martlew, in this no solutions. important debate about motoring in the United Kingdom. I was wondering if it might otherwise be termed “the Jeremy Clarkson memorial debate”, but clearly Jeremy Mr. Evans: Actually, I am not attacking the insurance is not dead. None the less, it is a debate that could be on vehicles generally; I think that it is essential that held in his name. In this country, motorists are seen as people have vehicle insurance. I fully appreciate the fact the bane of society and as something almost to be that a lot of accidents occur on the roads involving despised. Clearly, that assessment is not true, but one people who do not have insurance and I think that could be forgiven for thinking that it is. people should be clobbered hard if they are found not to have insurance on their vehicles. So, I have no problems The cost to the average motorist of running a car has with vehicle insurance. What I do have a problem with soared in recent years. It has been tacitly implied that is the rate at which insurance premiums have risen in the motorists are a problem and therefore that it is justifiable past few years and particularly in the past year. If to clobber them at every turn. However, the fact is that everybody paid their vehicle insurance, I suspect that we for many people the car is a necessity, not a luxury. It is could get the premiums down. So that is an issue that a fact that we all seem to have lost sight of. In rural we ought to focus on far more readily than is the case. areas, such as my constituency of Ribble Valley, access to public transport is poor and the car is a fundamental Next we have the tax disc. Again, I have no problem facet of everyday life for families, the elderly and the with its existence, but I have a problem with the manner disabled. in which it is applied. A larger car has a larger engine. From the moment that a car is bought, there are three Therefore, it follows that a larger car requires more fuel. essential items that must be purchased, which are insurance, So the driver of a larger car pays more tax at the pump. a tax disc and fuel. Car insurance premiums have been That makes perfect sense. What does not make sense, rising at record rates in the past year and they took their however, is the fact that a tax disc costs more for a biggest ever upward jump during the last quarter of larger car. Why is that? There are no extra administrative 2009, according to the latest benchmark AA British costs for the issuer, so the answer is that that tax is insurance premium index. The average quoted premium punitive, or in Government-speak, a financial disincentive. for an annual comprehensive car insurance policy rose Again, that conveniently ignores the fact that there is a in the fourth quarter of 2009 by 7.2 per cent. to just natural financial disincentive in place already with fuel over £1,000. Simon Douglas, the director of AA Insurance, tax. Those who drive more or who use more petrol to has said: drive the same distance as other people with smaller cars should and do pay more tax. Therefore, there is no “The cost of accident damage has also been rising steadily, despite a fall in the number of accidents on Britain’s roads.” reason to tax them twice unless it is for revenue purposes, and if that is the case, the Government should be honest I am sure that the Minister will agree that that is indeed about it. a very large sum to pay for car insurance. Perhaps the Government will commit to working with the insurance I hope that the Minister will say something about the companies to ensure that Britain’s motorists get a fair fact that so many foreign vehicles, particularly lorries, deal on something that they have no choice but to use British roads and pay nothing to do so. By contrast, purchase. if British lorries are on foreign roads, the drivers either need to have an appropriate tax disc or they pay separately Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): under separate charges. Does my hon. Friend also recognise the fact that, under this Labour Government, motor insurance tax has doubled, which has also contributed to the increased cost of Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I congratulate the insurance? hon. Gentleman on bringing this issue to the House. It is, of course, very important for his constituents in Mr. Evans: That is another stealth tax. I am sure that Ribble Valley. most people would not be able to say exactly how much I will now say something that Jeremy Clarkson may they are paying in taxation on whatever item they are not want me to say. Why should we not get rid of the tax purchasing, whether it is insurance or any other item. disc altogether and put all the tax on the fuel? Then So that tax is another stealth tax, which is to be regretted. there would be no avoidance, it would be an environmentally 3WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 4WH

[Bob Spink] I wish to put on record yet again my opposition to it. Families are already cash-strapped. We should not be very sound policy, it would raise more tax, and it would squeezing more money out of them by increasing duty save an awful lot of money that is currently being spent on what is, for many of them, a daily necessity. on administration. Once the motorist is on the road, insurance and tax paid and tank full, more charges are to be found, from Mr. Evans: I must say that there is an argument to be congestion charges to speed cameras, toll roads and made for doing just that. People cannot avoid having to parking. Motorists are constantly dipping into their put petrol or diesel into their vehicles, so there is a wallets. common-sense argument that the more that people drive, the more that they pay. The “polluter pays” argument is very important, so that is something that Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman has tempted me to needs to be looked at seriously. However, I object to the my feet by mentioning toll roads. People in south Essex fact that this new stealth tax has been introduced on must pay the added cost of the Dartford crossing toll, bigger cars and I just do not see the sense in it, other which can add up to £15 a week for essential journeys than that it is another stealth tax to raise taxation across the river to go to work or visit and care for revenue to pay for the deep hole that the Chancellor has relatives. Neither the Tories nor Labour will remove the helped to dig in the past 13 years. tax, as was promised in the original Act fixing the toll. It was said that when the bridge was paid for, the toll So we are at the petrol station, as it were, and I see would be removed. The bridge has been paid for, but an that there will be an Adjournment debate shortly in the amendment to another Bill was passed to allow the House on garages and their valuations, which will determine tolling to continue. That is dishonest and wrong. I hope what rates garage owners have to pay. I hope that the that Tory and Labour Front-Bench Members will promise Minister will look carefully at that issue too, because a to remove that tax. lot of independent petrol stations out there have been clobbered by the new valuations. That means that either the extra money that they have to pay will be passed on Mr. Eric Martlew (in the Chair): Order. Interventions to the customer in the form of higher prices, or we will should be short. see a lot more independent petrol stations closing, with the supermarkets filling the void. Mr. Evans: The hon. Gentleman has made a strong According to the AA, the average price at the pumps point. If that promise was made, it should be adhered at the moment is £1.12 a litre for petrol and £1.14 a litre to. People should adhere to their promises. My goodness for diesel. In April 2008, unleaded petrol retailed at an me: we are in election mode, and a lot of promises will average price of £1.07 a litre, according to the House of be made over the next few weeks. If people make Commons Library.This debate was secured last Wednesday. promises, it is important that they should be kept. The In last Friday’s edition of the Metro newspaper, there particular instance that he mentioned is nothing more was an article that said that, according to the AA: than a stealth tax to raise revenue. It is an easy hit. If “since the end of November 2008, the burden of fuel duty and anything, I suspect that the Government will seek to do VAT on a tank of petrol in Britain has soared by 11.46 per cent more of that in future rather than less, but I hope that compared with 2.23 per cent in Austria. The average rise for ten they will listen to what he said. European countries, including France and Germany, was just I have long argued that many speed cameras are over 5 per cent.” purely money-making exercises, with no tangible link Can the Minister please explain how that has come whatever to road safety or proven effectiveness in reducing about? Does he think that those price rises are fair or speed. I spoke with David Bizley of the Royal Automobile proportionate, or does he perhaps feel that motorists Club recently, and we discussed speed cameras. The are carrying the jerry can for the Prime Minister’s RAC’s view, which I endorse, is that greater use should financial ineptitude? be made of average speed cameras and speed-activated warning signs. They help to educate motorists to stay Bob Spink: Very good. within the limit and promote safe driving, rather than simply penalising them. I also agree with the RAC that Mr. Evans: Thanks very much. a nationwide audit of existing speed cameras is necessary The Daily Telegraph carried the same story on its to ensure that each can demonstrate a proven effect in front page, but it added that the EU is planning its own reducing accidents. Those that cannot should be removed. tax on petrol. The article stated: I understand that to be my party’s policy, which will be “The European Union is drawing up plans for its first direct implemented as soon as we are elected. tax with a “green” levy on petrol, coal and natural gas that could Speed cameras earn the Government a staggering cost British consumers up to £3 billion.” £88 million a year, or approximately £250,000 every day, I do not want to get into the semantics of the farce that and the number issued each year has doubled under this was the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, but suffice it to Administration. Overall, drivers have been hit for almost say that I implore the Minister and the Government to £1 billion in speeding fines during the past decade. At resist such developments with vigour. Taxation should least two tickets are handed out every minute. Matthew be set by sovereign Governments. Elliott, chief executive of the TaxPayers Alliance, said: My final point about the taxation of fuel is that “The fact that more speeding fines are handed out every year motorists will also face petrol pump increases from suggests that speed cameras are more about raising revenue than 1 April that could add another 2.5p per litre to the price reducing speeds on the roads. Fining anyone should be about of fuel, according to the AA. In the past, I have implored justice, not fundraising”, the Government to freeze the fuel duty escalator and which is exactly what is going on. 5WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 6WH

I suspect that over the years, we have all seen cameras On clamping, there is a public perception among at the bottoms of hills and police using handheld speed those in the motoring industry that clamping is done for guns in similar positions. In Clitheroe recently, I saw a monetary reasons alone. There is still a suspicion that mobile camera placed on top of a postbox at the people are given official or unofficial commissions for bottom of a hill. The camera was being hidden. There reporting or carrying out clamping. My hon. Friend the was no warning and no indication that it was there to Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), during debate on help promote safety; it was merely a potential cash cow. the Crime and Security Bill, said: “clamping appears to be one of the few growth industries under Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does this Government. I find it objectionable that so many of our the hon. Gentleman know whether the Government are fellow citizens are being ripped off by wheel-clampers.”—[Official paying rent to Royal Mail for that? Report, 18 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 89.] Paul Watters, the AA’s head of public affairs, has observed: Mr. Evans: I hope so. The camera will at least deter “Private parking enforcement is big business generating millions of pounds and no one notices and acts when the rules are broken. people from using the postbox. The public have absolutely no protection if a private parking firm If we are serious about reducing accidents on the acts unfairly—it is a civil matter and no one is interested in roads and reducing speed in certain areas, we ought to helping.” be open about using cameras. Static cameras must be The number of vehicles clamped has risen by 75 per yellow, and there must be signs telling people that they cent. in the past 19 months, and 2,100 individuals are are approaching an area of potential problems. Hiding licensed to clamp. cameras shows clearly that there is no intention to The same is true of parking. We have all seen parking indicate to motorists that they should slow down for a attendants waiting by a car for the meter to run out. black spot; it is all about nabbing them, giving them Parking laws exist to be enforced, of course, and for three points and fining them. That simply should not be good reasons, but why promote the attitude that it is all allowed. The Minister is nodding, but I have seen somebody about the money on the back of actions taken? The hiding behind a letterbox. That should not be allowed. Government’s problem is that there is a wider sphere of Speed cameras ought to be about road safety and speed suspicion about the motives behind the charges. Councils awareness, not revenue raising. Average speed checks received a total of £328 million pounds in on and are better. The sooner we hold a review of speed cameras, off-street parking fines in 2008-09. Peter Roberts, chief the better. executive of the Drivers’ Alliance, said: “Parking enforcement has become a massive money-making Graham Stringer: As the hon. Gentleman continues industry and we are seeing unscrupulous and target driven enforcement his rant against speed cameras and taxes, will he tell us of parking laws where the penalties far outweigh the offence.” two things? First, seeing that he wants to get rid of all I can remember a time when there were no parking those taxes, what extra cuts will the Conservatives charges in Clitheroe. When they were introduced, I said make if they abolish the fuel duty escalator and give to my local authority, “Why have you introduced charges?” up the income from speed cameras? Secondly, what The charges hit many local shops, because having to pay does he think of the 2005 evaluation of speed cameras for parking deterred people from coming into town to that showed that speeds and road accident deaths had shop. I was told, “The Government assume that we are decreased? raising a certain amount in revenues, and that amount is taken off the support that we would otherwise get.” Mr. Evans: Generally, it is because there are more Basically, the Government are promoting car parking cars on the road. I love driving under gantries that say charges in towns and villages. That is a great shame. As “50 mph”. I look at them and dream of driving 50 mph. we all know, they will be seeking other ways to raise The amount of congestion on the roads is an issue. revenues as well. I suspect that in my lifetime, car The hon. Gentleman represents a Manchester seat. I parking charges will be introduced for people using know that Manchester recently held a vote on congestion supermarkets and out-of-town shopping centres. That charging. As I remember, he was against it. It was a is to be deplored. great victory for the people of Manchester that congestion Charge by charge, stealth tax by stealth tax, the charging was not introduced into the area, because they Government have created the impression that motoring all saw it as another tax. The Government tried to bribe is wrong, that people ought not to drive and that it is the people of Manchester into voting for it, but they acceptable to charge them increasing amounts of money would not be bought. at every turn. As I have said, for many people, owning a All that I am asking for is transparency in everything car is not a luxury, but a necessity. When the 4x4 Chelsea having to do with motoring. I do not think that motorists tractor tax was mooted, the Government seemed not to should be used as cash cows. I can think of all sorts have even considered the effect that such blanket legislation of similar issues. I know that the Government are would have on people such as farmers who use such considering putting VAT on food to raise extra revenues vehicles in the course of their profession. So blinded to fill the black hole that has grown over many years. were Ministers by the possibility of another revenue No; we must just be more careful about how we spend stream that they lost sight of the bigger picture. our money and more transparent about how we raise it. People in rural areas need a car. They cannot rely on We should not use the motorist as a cash cow at every public transport because the infrastructure does not turn. I hope that any future Government will consider exist. Cars are needed to get the children to the bus stop that. Speed cameras ought not to be about revenue for the school run. For many elderly people, the nearest raising; road safety and speed awareness should be at doctors’ surgery or supermarket is 3 or 4 miles away their core. with no bus stops en route. That is like walking from 7WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 8WH

[Mr. Evans] much. He will be aware of the report that Gwyneth Dunwoody released as Chairman of the Transport Westminster Hall to Parsons Green. Over the last 13 years, Committee on the safety of driving, which focused this Administration have had a tendency to neglect the particularly on young male drivers between the ages countryside, which can be seen from their attitude towards of 17 and 25. Will he ask the Minister to look carefully farmers, village schools, pubs, phone boxes and post at that report and to take action to make our roads safer offices, to name just a few. Their attitude towards for our girls and boys? motoring has also been formed without considering the needs of people living in rural areas. Mr. Evans: In the time I have, I cannot be comprehensive on all matters, but I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s The UK’s disabled population is heavily reliant on point. There is no bigger fan of Gwyneth Dunwoody in cars. There are approximately 1.7 million disabled drivers this Parliament than I. She was a doughty fighter and and 2.3 million blue badge holders. There are 600,000 an amazing politician. She loved Parliament and fought Motability-supplied vehicles and about 10 per cent. of for what she believed with relentless energy. Parliament new cars sales are to the disabled sector. The annual is poorer for the fact that she is no longer with us. spend of the disabled sector is approximately £60 billion. It is patently unfair continually to penalise disabled An overhaul is needed of the way motoring is approached motorists, many of whom have no choice but to drive. in the UK. That can be done only by looking at the full picture, not at individual aspects. When all of the aspects The current piecemeal approach—a small rise here, a are added up, they do not represent a level playing field new charge there—cannot go on. People do not know for motorists, who are targeted and punished what they are being charged for, why they are being disproportionately. Motorists are not the scourge of charged for it or where the money is being spent. We society and the Government should not treat them as if must have a more transparent system, not revenue they are. streams dressed up as green taxes, speed cameras or clampers. The RAC has called for an overhaul of the 9.55 am motoring taxation system. At present, it believes that every new tax and reform of the system is Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I “merely a sticking plaster over the problem”. did not expect to have the opportunity to speak so soon, Mr. Martlew. It is a pleasure to serve under your I could not agree more. chairmanship. Two years ago, I introduced a ten-minute Bill proposing I congratulate the hon. Member for Ribble Valley transparency in the taxation of petrol. I argued that (Mr. Evans) on securing the debate. It is a shame that when people fill up their cars, their receipts should say we do not debate transport issues more frequently. not just how much VAT they have paid, as most receipts Shadow Transport Ministers seem to get far fewer do, but how much taxation they have paid on the opportunities to speak in Westminster Hall debates product. I think people would be shocked to see how than our colleagues who shadow other Departments. much taxation they pay on every litre of petrol. However, as the old saying goes, “You wait for a bus As we have seen, the Government’s attitude towards and then two come along at once,” because there are motorists is found wanting not just in the taxation another two transport debates tomorrow—one in system, but across the board. It goes from simple matters Westminster Hall and one in the main Chamber. I such as not providing the option to pay for the Dartford suspect that this is the only week during my five years in crossing and Severn bridge tolls by card, thereby catching Parliament in which there have been three transport many drivers unawares, to not removing speed cameras debates, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on that are clearly in place only to augment revenue. The being a part of that. Government’s policy agenda is clear: “Show me the The subject of the debate is fairly broad, so I thank money!” The 2009 Budget states that the Treasury the hon. Gentleman’s staff for giving me an indication projects it will raise £26.6 billion on fuel duties alone of the areas that he would cover in his speech. In my this year, which is up £2 billion from 2008-09. It will brief remarks, I will talk about the cost of motoring raise £4.7 billion on VAT and £5.6 billion on car tax. and touch on policies for improving road safety, specifically Why, according to the RAC, is only a third of that spent regarding the use of speed cameras, the drink-drive on motorists? That is a serious indictment of Government limit and the use of 20 mph zones. policy. The hon. Gentleman made an interesting point about This is a broad debate. I want to touch on one more the transparency of taxation and suggested that the area before I finish. When people break down, they amount of tax paid should be shown on people’s receipts park on the hard shoulder to wait for the emergency when they purchase fuel. Does the Minister know the services. I hope that the Government or any future likely cost of doing that? If it was minimal, it would be Government will consider allowing the emergency services, a good thing to pursue to bring about transparency. the RAC, the AA and other such organisations to use the hard shoulder to get to people who have broken Mr. Evans: I thank the hon. Gentleman for pursuing down. Sadly, accidents also happen on the hard shoulder. this issue. I think that the cost would be minimal People have lost their lives waiting for the emergency because these days the tills are computers. Receipts services to arrive. I hope that the Government will show how much VAT is paid, so it would take only a consider the simple measure of allowing the emergency slight amendment to the programme to show the amount services to use the hard shoulder. of taxation paid on the petrol. Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman has focused on Mr. Leech: I, too, suspect that the cost would be taxation and the cost of motoring, but has not mentioned minimal. It would be interesting to know whether the safety because he could not broaden his speech that Minister has any idea of the cost that would be entailed. 9WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 10WH

The hon. Gentleman also made a point about insurance. Mr. Leech: Much needs to be done to attract more I should declare an interest because I used to work for people on to public transport. The statistics show that the RAC on its Norwich Union contracts before entering more people are travelling by train than for many years, the House. As hon. Members might be aware, Norwich but bus patronage has decreased in most areas outside Union introduced a trial for pay-as-you-drive insurance. London, which is a worrying trend given that 86 per I was disappointed that it decided not to go ahead with cent. of public transport is by bus. I agree with the hon. that idea because it could reduce the cost of insurance Gentleman, however, that the cost of motoring for safer drivers, people who drive on safe roads, people disproportionately falls on people in more rural areas. who drive at times of the day when accidents are less likely and those who drive only occasionally, such as Graham Stringer: As we are making party political people who use their car once a week to go to the shops. points, which is a bit unusual in this Chamber, does the I urge the insurance companies to consider that issue hon. Gentleman agree that the base cause of higher bus again, because that proposal would be a fair way of and train fares is the deregulated system that was left reducing insurance premiums for a number of less behind following the Transport Act 1985 and the regular drivers. privatisation of the railways, which has been unbelievably I disagree with the hon. Gentleman about the cost of costly? motoring because it is simply a myth that it has become Mr. Leech: I absolutely agree, and the point is proved more expensive. The Road Users Alliance claims that by the fact that bus patronage has increased significantly motorists pay huge amounts of tax but get nothing in London, where we have a different model of bus back. It is certainly true that the price of petrol and usage. I hope that the Local Transport Act 2008 will diesel has increased significantly in the past 12 months, result in better bus services across different parts of the but the overall cost of motoring has gone down significantly country, but I worry that quality contracts and proper since 1997. That has happened for a number of reasons, quality partnerships will not work in some areas. There for example because cars have become significantly will still be significant resistance from bus operators to cheaper. I do not tend to tell people this, but I bought a going down that route, but doing so can only be good Daewoo Lanos in 1999. Those people who like cars for improving bus services throughout the country. claim that they are pretty rubbish—I would have to say that I probably agree. However, I purchased the car for Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is being very £8,000 in 1999. When I changed my car eight years later, generous with his time. I agree with his point about in 2007, the price of a better model Daewoo Lanos was using the 2008 Act to bring in quality contracts. Is he less than what I paid in 1999. willing to try to persuade the chair of the Greater People can also now make smarter choices to affect Manchester integrated transport authority—his Lib Dem the amount of vehicle excise duty that they pay. When I councillor friend—to start introducing quality contracts bought my new car in 2007, my VED decreased to £35, in Greater Manchester, which he seems particularly because of the vehicle that I chose to buy. The cost of reluctant to do? my fuel halved because I went from a very fuel-inefficient car to a fuel-efficient car—I now get twice as many Mr. Leech: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I miles to the gallon than with my previous car. have had numerous discussions with my colleague, the My boss, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes chairman of the ITA, about how bus services can be (Norman Baker), tabled a parliamentary question through improved across Greater Manchester. I am sure that he which he uncovered the real cost of motoring and the would agree that the chairman of the ITA is very keen proof that the cost of motoring had actually fallen. The to ensure that bus services improve across the whole of reply told him that there had been a 13 per cent. Greater Manchester. reduction in the real-terms cost of motoring between I was about to go on to a point about the 1997 to 2009. In comparison, there has been a real-terms disproportionate cost of motoring faced by people in increase in the cost of bus and coach travel of 17 per rural communities. When public transport is limited or cent. over the same period, and a real-terms increase in non-existent in remote rural communities, the people rail fares of 7 per cent. My hon. Friend said: who live there are completely reliant on their cars. The situation has got worse in recent years because the “These figures show starkly just what a raw deal train and bus passengers have had out of this Government, and that car drivers, closure of local shops, post offices and banks has forced for all the moans about fuel prices, have done rather well. While people to travel further to access local services. That is Ministers are busy preaching about cutting carbon emissions, the why my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham Department for Transport has allowed polluting transport to (Dr. Cable) proposed a rural exemption on the fuel duty become cheaper and cleaner transport to become more expensive. rise, based on EU rules, to help people in such areas. The Department is clearly part of the carbon problem rather than part of the carbon solution.” Rises in fuel duty are a blunt instrument. Although such a policy acts as an incentive for people to use public transport, that works only when there is a public Mr. Evans: The situation seems rather perverse. I transport alternative. Rises in the cost of motoring agree with the sentiment about public transport being must go hand in hand with improvements to public incredibly expensive—particularly trains, given the plethora transport, which is why the Liberal Democrats would of train prices. When the Government want to do dramatically cut the roads budget by 90 per cent. while something about green energy, they throw money at at the same time investing more of that money in public inefficient and ugly wind turbines with the expectation transport. We do not think that the solution to congestion that more will be erected, yet they do the reverse when is the extensive building of new roads. Instead, we want they try to attract people on to public transport. That to give more people the opportunity to access improved does not make sense. public transport. 11WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 12WH

Bob Spink: I apologise for intervening again, but I am The fact is that speed cameras, including fixed cameras, astounded by the hon. Gentleman’s reference to a 90 per save lives. I was involved in the introduction of the first cent. cut in the roads budget because I was not aware of speed camera in Manchester. Two cameras were introduced that proposal. Would that affect the repair of our roads at the same time, one of which was in my constituency—that after this devastatingly bad winter, during which there was before I was its Member, but I was a local councillor has been a lot of ice and water? in the area. The speed camera was introduced at an accident black spot on a road that is an extension of the Mr. Leech: No. The cut relates to road building. M56. The spot is close to a school and two churches, so there is a busy crossing, and there had been numerous accidents there. After the speed camera was introduced, Bob Spink: New roads? there was a clear and dramatic decrease in the number of accidents, so no one can tell me that speed cameras Mr. Leech: Yes; it does not relate to road maintenance. do not save lives. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that an awful lot of additional investment needs to be put into repairing the In some areas, however, people certainly slow down roads. Road maintenance is a difficult job for all local for speed cameras but then speed up again once they authorities. In my constituency, I do not believe that the know where the cameras are. The kind of speed cameras council can be held responsible for the bad weather I am talking about work only in specific locations where destroying the roads, but a lot of extra effort needs to be there is a particular problem. In the location in my made to ensure that those repairs are carried out, even if constituency to which I referred, where many children that means putting extra, up-front investment into repairing cross the road to get to and from school and many roads and drawing money down from future years to people cross to get to and from the two churches, having try to solve the problem straight away. a speed camera is a good idea, even if it reduces speeds only around that junction, simply because it is an accident black spot. Mr. Goodwill: When did the Liberal Democrats decide on their policy of cutting the roads budget by 90 per Although I do not have any statistical evidence, I cent., because it certainly was not announced in a blaze have heard anecdotal evidence suggesting that average of publicity to the world’s media? speed cameras have led to a dramatic decrease in the speed at which people drive in the areas where they have been introduced. We have all been on a motorway when Mr. Leech: It will be in our manifesto. We see the roadworks have been going on and average speed cameras introduction of a road-user charging scheme that is have been set up, and we know that almost every driver cost-neutral as the long-term solution to both congestion will reduce their speed as very few people speed through and the cost of motoring, as the typical motorist would the sections covered by those cameras. I do not know pay no more than they do at present and those making whether the Minister has any statistics on the number of greener choices would pay significantly less. That would accidents at those spots, but having heard anecdotal go hand in hand with the abolition of vehicle excise evidence, and from seeing with the naked eye the way in duty and a reduction in fuel duty. which people drive through roadworks that have average The hon. Member for Ribble Valley referred to the speed cameras, it seems to me that they are incredibly fact that foreign lorries currently pay nothing to use our successful. roads. We would deal with that by ensuring that the lorry element of the road charging scheme would raise Mr. Goodwill: Does the hon. Gentleman also recognise revenue and that foreign lorries, as well as British lorries, that when time over distance cameras are in place on would pay to use the roads. roadworks, the number of vehicles managing to get I am not sure how long I have to speak, given that few through those works actually increases? other Members wish to make speeches, but I will move on to road safety and say a few words about speed Mr. Leech: Again, I have not seen the statistics, but I cameras. I must disagree with the hon. Gentleman rather suspect that that has a positive impact on traffic because, in my opinion, speed cameras are a good thing. flow. The idiots who still drive at 90 mph in a 50 mph If people do not speed, they do not pay the speed restricted zone in which average speed cameras have camera tax, or whatever one calls it. The fact is that been introduced are certainly very much in the minority. speed cameras save lives. It is unusual to see people speeding through those areas, and the fact that everyone is driving at the same speed Bob Spink: Will the hon. Gentleman at least acknowledge appears to have a positive impact on traffic flow. that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley was absolutely I welcome the support the Government have shown right to say that average speed cameras change behaviour for 20 mph zones, particularly around schools, but I feel and improve safety, whereas the flash cameras do not? that that does not go far enough. It is a statistical fact that cutting speed saves lives, and my view, and that of Mr. Leech: Perhaps I should not have given way to my party, is that we should reduce the default speed the hon. Gentleman, because I planned to mention that limit on urban roads from 30 mph to 20 mph. Local point in a minute or so. I agree with the hon. Member authorities could then exempt certain roads for which a for Ribble Valley that speed cameras should be visible, 20 mph speed limit was considered inappropriate. because when people know that there are speed cameras Opponents of 20 mph zones often argue that that speed about, they are far more likely to drive more slowly. is too slow for driving and that people feel compelled to Speed cameras should be about not just raising revenue, drive faster because it does not seem natural to drive at but changing behaviour and persuading people to drive 20 mph. The problem is that 20 mph zones are the more slowly. exception, rather than the rule. If the default limit was 13WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 14WH

20 mph, people would get used to driving at that speed there was a big increase in pollutants—lead from fuel, and would not feel that they were driving slowly but, at sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, volatile organic solvents present, someone driving through a 20 mph zone clearly and particulates—but we must pay tribute to the motor feels as though they are having to slow down. I urge the industry, which has risen to the challenge set by politicians Government to change their view on 20 mph zones and in the UK and at European Union level to reduce to consider a reduction in the default limit from 30 mph pollutants from vehicles, to the extent that now a car to 20 mph. running on the motorway at 70 mph has fewer emissions Finally, I would like to mention drink-driving and the than a stationary car did in the 1960s. On the hottest, drink-driving limit. I am delighted that the Government most polluted day of summer in the middle of one of appear to be changing their view on a reduction in the our European cities, a Ford Focus will actually clean the drink-driving limit from 80 mg to 50 mg. My party has atmosphere, such is the performance of the vehicle’s argued for a reduction to 50 mg, which would be in line catalytic converters and other technology that clean with most other European countries. The Government exhaust emissions. appear to have changed their view on that, as I remember Of course the other big challenge facing us is carbon that the former Minister, the hon. Member for South dioxide, and it is important that we do not confuse two Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), appeared to be completely opposed arguments. Certainly, around Heathrow airport and in to reducing the limit. That view was shared by several London, for example, other pollutants have been dealt Members, and it was the view taken by the Transport with, but we now need to take CO2 just as seriously. I Committee—I was one of the minority of its members am pleased that progress has been made in reducing the who supported a reduction. averagelevelofCO2 emitted by vehicles. In fact, later I am aware that Sir Peter North has been asked to today I will attend a Society of Motor Manufacturers examine the possibility of reducing the drink-driving and Traders event, where results on CO2 emissions will limit, and I am also aware that he has spoken to the be announced. Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety I understand that average CO2 emissions fell 5.49 per for its views on whether a reduction in the limit should cent. to 149.5 grams per kilometre in 2009—not far go hand in hand with a reduction in the level of penalty. from the target of 130 grams per kilometre. That shows In my view, that would be a big mistake, and I hope that that the European Union has made progress compared the Minister will assure hon. Members that the Government with, say, the United States, which has set its corporate will press ahead with a reduction in the drink-driving average fuel economy—CAFE—targets at 35 miles per limit and ensure that a mandatory ban for drink-driving gallon by 2016. Most people in the UK with a vehicle would remain in place for those caught between the old doing 35 mpg would consider that they were at the limit and what would be the new limit. It is fair to say higher end of the fuel consumption scale. that, over the years, the very real threat of a definite ban The dramatic reduction in CO2 has been an effect of has helped to get the message across to people that the recession, as people seek to buy smaller cars. The drink-driving is unacceptable, and we should not do scrappage scheme, which has probably been the only anything that could put that in jeopardy. successful scheme introduced by the Government to address the problems of the recession and its effects on industry, has meant that people have been buying smaller 10.20 am cars. There has also been more discounting of cars as Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): the manufacturers, which produce a wide range of I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble vehicles with different CO2 emissions, seek to incentivise Valley (Mr. Evans) on securing this debate. I am not a people to buy smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. petrol head to rival the likes of Jeremy Clarkson, but I Several new technologies are in the pipeline, and it is believe that, on balance, the car has been a force for important that we as politicians are careful not to try to good. I am told that back in the 1920s, the first car that pick winners. I suspect that if we had tried to pick the came to our village was a Vulcan made in Southport, video recorder of the future, we would have gone for which my grandfather had purchased, and then, in the Betamax. Therefore, it is important that we set tough ’40s and ’50s, the doctors and bank managers would be targets for industry to meet but do not try to pick a seen in cars. It is only in the past 30 or 40 years that the particular technology. One possible exception to that car has become ubiquitous, and now everyone aspires would be electric cars, for which we need a network of to own one. charging points. For many people, the car is a machine of freedom. It There is another challenge facing us in that regard. I means that students can access education where they was recently in the US to meet Government people and wish to study, and people can work and live where they academics as well as motor manufacturers. There was a want, whereas previous generations had to be able to real concern that many of the new technologies rely on walk to work. We understand from the statistics that, in rare earths, especially lithium and platinum, which may cash terms, inequality has increased over the past 12 years, well become a limiting factor in the introduction of but cars have become more affordable, particularly because some technologies. There was also a concern that the of the availability of good second-hand cars that do not Chinese in particular are managing to buy up many of rust in the way that they used to. Many people can now those resources, which may provide a challenge to the own a car, take pleasure in it, and use it to get to work European Union in terms of leading the world in battery and access all the things that they need in their lives. technology and so on. Of course, there has been a downside. Congestion Also, we must not disregard the existing technology has increased and, in many cases, people find that that is available and the improvements that have been journeys can take longer than they did even in the days made to, for example, diesel engines. I do not know of horses and carts, particularly in London. In the ’60s, whether hon. Members saw a recent repeat of “Top 15WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 16WH

[Mr. Robert Goodwill] fines would be delivered to the ministerial car service or perhaps to No. 10 itself—who knows? That is a loophole Gear”, in which Jeremy Clarkson drove a Jaguar XJ6 that we need to look at—the box certainly has not been TDVi from Switzerland to Blackpool to turn on the ticked. The estimated 6.5 per cent. of uninsured cars on illuminations on one tank of fuel. We must not disregard our roads equates to 2 million vehicles. I can tell my the tremendous benefits that can accrue from existing hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley that the cost technologies, which affect the whole range of vehicles of that equates to £30 on every person’s premium. being marketed in the UK, and concentrate only on There has been some discussion of vehicle excise duty the small niche markets for some of the hybrids and and banding. Currently there are 13 bands, from band battery vehicles. A for vehicles emitting less than 100 grams per kilometre, My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley spoke which is free, to band M, for the most polluting cars about insurance costs, and I pointed out that the insurance emitting 225 grams per kilometre and more, which is set premium tax has doubled under this Government. The at £405. I should like to put right one misconception: cost of insurance is particularly a problem for young 4x4s are not treated any differently from other cars on drivers. When one looks at the fines that are levied in the road. The bands relate to CO2 emissions, not to respect of their insurance, it is little wonder that they 4x4 or two-wheel drive vehicles. A gas-guzzling Ferrari are sometimes tempted to drive without it. or a Lamborghini will be in the same band as a gas-guzzling 4x4. Some of the vehicle classes contain some cars that I share the disappointment of the hon. Member for perform well, particularly those with hybrid technology, Manchester, Withington (Mr. Leech) that the Norwich which is being rolled out on 4x4s. Union pay-as-you-drive scheme was not taken up to the extent that it could be rolled out more widely. I was It is important that we send out the right signals to disappointed because the premiums were loaded on people when they purchase cars. The VED bands, night driving, and we all know that, for young people in which they will note when buying, and the information particular, many of the nasty accidents happen between that now has to be available at the point of sale 11 o’clock at night and the early hours of the morning. under European Union rules that went through the Loading the cost of insurance on night driving would European Parliament when I was there, mean that discourage people from using their cars at that time. people understand more than ever about the CO2 produced by their vehicles. I noted that the Minister’s predecessor, who is now There have been some big fluctuations in the price of the Minister of State, Department for Environment, petrol and diesel over the years, which comprised increases Food and Rural Affairs, was on 20 January 2009 considering in crude prices and VAT and in taxation levied by the a consultation on continuous insurance, which I think Government both as fuel duty and North sea oil taxes. I may be one way of dealing with the problem of uninsured was pleased when my party announced that it would drivers. However, we need to be careful about one have a fair fuel stabiliser to try to even out some of the aspect: people who cannot afford to insure a car that ups and downs in this system, so that the Government’s has broken down but do not have somewhere off road getting a windfall through higher VAT and North sea to put it. I assume that if a car has a statutory off-road oil revenues when crude prices are high is moderated by notification, it will not have to be insured, but I wonder a reduction in tax. Conversely, when oil prices fell, that whether the motor insurance industry itself could come stabiliser would come into effect in the opposite way. up with a type of insurance that would allow such a vehicle to be parked on the road, as a way of helping May I just say one or two words about safety cameras, people who do not have off-road parking but have a car the numbers of which have almost trebled under this that will not run. Otherwise, people who may not be the Government? It is interesting that although there are no richest in society who have cars that they cannot drive fixed speed cameras in North Yorkshire, where I live, will be faced with a major problem. and Durham, there does not seem to be any conclusive evidence that road safety has deteriorated there in relation Last year, I spent some time with the North Yorkshire to the rest of the country. The Government stand police automatic number plate detection team and was accused of being a one-club golfer in their reliance on interested to note the number of uninsured vehicles that safety cameras to police our roads, particularly as over went through. There are two big loopholes in the system: the past decade there has been a 20 per cent. reduction first, if one takes out an insurance policy on a monthly in traffic police. If there is a change of Government, payment scheme, they can get their vehicle taxed and after the election the Conservatives would not fund any then cancel the standing order. We pulled up a driver new fixed speed cameras. We would abolish Labour’s from Hull who had done that. He waved the insurance camera quangos and expose this system to real democratic certificate at the police officer, but of course the computers control. We will publish information that is currently at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency showed that kept secret on each camera’s record on safety and the the car was not insured. fines it generates. In short, we will put an end to We still have a problem with vehicle cloning. A couple Labour’s cash cow camera culture. of years ago, I demonstrated that by cloning the Prime Minister’s ministerial car. The Government may consider Mr. Leech: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether that they have ticked the box by ensuring that when one that information would also include the speed at which goes to a number plate supplier, one has to take a people were clocked as being over the speed limit? Some logbook for the vehicle and photo identification, but it cameras are set several miles per hour above the speed is still possible to purchase so-called show plates on the limit and there is a real danger that if this information is internet, as I did. I have a pair of plates in my office that available people will know that they can get away with exactly match the plates on the Prime Minister’s car. speeding at 6 mph or 7 mph above the speed limit at a Presumably, if I were to use them illegally, any levied particular location. 17WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 18WH

Mr. Goodwill: I understand that the guidelines of the 10.37 am Association of Chief Police Officers are 10 per cent. plus one. It would not be useful to publish the levels at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport which fines are tripped. On some average speed cameras, (Paul Clark): It is a pleasure to be under your chairmanship the speed might be set slightly higher than that, but it in this important debate, Mr. Martlew, and I congratulate would not be useful in respect of road safety to publish the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) on the level at which fines would be levied. securing it. The statements and comments that have been made Clamping on private land has become an epidemic show that anything goes in trying to get a point across. and many companies are now engaged in this activity, At no point has Government policy said that motorists as my hon. Friend said. Something needs to be done. I are a bane of society or that driving is wrong. Indeed, am pleased that the Government are engaged in a the policies that we have followed have recognised the consultation on that. My party has long argued that we complex issues facing all transport users in a successful need better policing of the private clamping industry. country, whether they are moving around for work or Not only do we wish companies engaging in this activity business, delivering goods, supplying customers or going to meet the same sort of criteria that other parking on their holidays to some of the wonderful places in the organisations have to adhere to, through registration north-west region, such as the Ribble Valley and, of with bodies such as the British Parking Association, but course, Mr. Martlew, the Lake District and Carlisle. we think that people who feel that they have been That is why we have followed a sensible policy covering clamped unfairly should have access to a parking those areas. adjudication service. It beggars belief that an hon. Member in this Chamber I am genuinely interested to hear the Minister’s view can say that the Government have followed a policy that of people who feel that they have been unfairly ticketed states that motorists are a bane of society, when the for parking and wish to appeal. I have not reached an Highways Agency is investing some £900 million in the opinion on that. Under the current system in Scarborough, strategic network today—this year—and has delivered for example, if I pay a parking fine within 14 days, I can some 71 major road schemes since 2001, and the pay the lower fee of £35, but if I leave it longer than Government have announced some £6 billion-worth of 14 days, the fee increases to £70. So there is a discount if investment over the coming years, starting with hard I pay early. If a person appeals and loses, they pay the shoulder running and active traffic management to ease higher fine, so it is almost a case of double or quits. Has congestion and improve safety on our roads. That does the Minister or his Department analysed the effect on not suggest that we have no commitment to drivers and the numbers of appeals coming forward and revenue for motorists, whether for business or pleasure, and that is local authorities if the lower fine were held in abeyance not the case. pending an appeal? Perhaps fines could be lodged with the parking adjudication service pending the result of I am delighted that the hon. Member for Scarborough that appeal. and Whitby (Mr. Goodwill), who speaks for the official Opposition, recognised that one successful scheme that Any motoring policies that a future Government we have introduced to help the motor industry and introduced should be rural-proofed. I represent a large those who work in it and motorists is the scrappage rural constituency in which many people rely on their scheme during this difficult world financial downturn. cars to get about. There is no public transport in many The hon. Gentleman’s Front Bench opposed that scheme, areas and, given the recent weather and the topography but it has proved to be extremely successful, and I am of the North Yorkshire moors, many people require delighted with his conversion on the route to this debate. 4x4 vehicles, including Land Rovers and the like. I hope I hope that he and all hon. Members will welcome our that any future measures on motoring take into account £400 million fiscal stimulus to introduce road enhancement the needs of the rural population. schemes, because that has been important for the economy at large, and for motorists and those who use our roads. Finally, I cannot get my head around the fact that the Liberal Democrats are proposing a 90 per cent. cut in the roads budget on top of the 50 per cent. cut over the Mr. Leech: Has the Minister assessed the likely impact past 10 years that the Government have already of the end of the scrappage scheme on the sale of new introduced—compared with the previous 10 years of cars? Conservative Administration. I wonder how that will work and the effect that it will have on the economy in Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate the terms of contractors, for example. Are we talking about juncture that we are at in the current cycle in terms of existing contracts that have been signed off or plans in preparations for the Budget. Such matters are kept the pipeline, or will this happen in five or six years when under review by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. all the existing contracts have been rolled out? Will it Motoring taxes are primarily revenue-raising to serve affect the managed motorway scheme on hard shoulder and support public finances and to fund public services. running? I note that the hon. Gentleman kept referring to them The Liberal Democrats have not done their sums. It as stealth taxes. I suspect, frankly, that he does not would be irresponsible to impose such cuts. The effects think that the stealth taxes have provided the £1.34 billion on congestion and our economy are too awful to consider. of regional funding allocation for the north-west region, I hope that they will look again at that policy, but and that that is pie in the sky, and some sort of stealth perhaps we need not worry too much, because I suspect expenditure. It is not; nor is the 11 per cent. increase in that if there were a hung Parliament that would be one funding for local transport schemes in his region. That of the policies that they quickly discarded during is the reality of funding real schemes that are out there negotiations with Mr. Brown. and making a difference for all those who travel, let 19WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 20WH

[Paul Clark] I have made it clear that fuel duty contributes to the Government’s sound financial provision of services. We alone funding such as the £2.3 billion for bus services in announced in the previous Budget that fuel duty rate this country and the record billions of pounds that are would increase by 1p a litre in real terms from 2010 to being spent on the railways. 2013. The main fuel duty is a set rate that is levied on producers when the fuel leaves the refinery, and is Bob Spink: The Minister is being extremely generous. currently 56.19p a litre. The hon. Member for Manchester, Does he acknowledge that the toll, which is a tax, on the Withington (Mr. Leech) referred to lower real-terms Dartford crossing, is to raise taxation for public services? costs for motoring today. The rate of tax is lower in real It certainly does not stop congestion; it increases it, and terms than it was 10 years ago. Indeed, if it had risen in it certainly pumps more carbon into our atmosphere. line with inflation since 1999, it would be well over Will he acknowledge that? 60p a litre. Even after the increases announced in the Budget last year, it will be lower in real terms than it Paul Clark: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman was. refers to the Dartford crossing. I intended to speak Fuel duty is an appropriate tool to secure public about it, and I will do so now. The toll is not a tax; it is a finances, and is in line with the Government’s environmental congestion charge, which was changed in 2003 on the agenda. It makes an important contribution to meeting basis of modelling that showed that if there were no our legally binding carbon budgets. As well as supporting charge, the level of use of the tunnels and crossing public finances, the increases announced in last year’s would increase by some 17 per cent. To remove the toll Budget are estimated to reduce the UK’s CO2 emissions process or congestion charge would lead to even greater by 2 million tonnes a year by 2013-14. This is not about congestion than that which I accept now exists at the cash cows or stealth taxes. Apart from ensuring sound plazas. However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman public services and public finances, it is about delivering recognises that no one must pay more than they did, on our environmental agenda, which is critical. because the charges for the DART-Tag system remain the same, and it eases throughput. Mr. Evans: What is being done to incentivise the The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that we are development of electric cars and battery technology? undertaking various work and modelling on alternatives— Surely that is the way to go. Rather than caning those for example, charging for one way only. However, we who have petrol and diesel cars, we should incentivise must consider the effect of that on traffic patterns and people to look into alternative forms of vehicle. the lengths to which people might go to use alternative Paul Clark: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman routes to cross the river. There are complications. The has raised that issue. The carbon reduction programme charge that has been introduced is a congestion charge, runs across the Government, including the Department and the hon. Gentleman is well aware that residents on for Transport, and I am delighted that the Secretary of both sides of the crossing receive generous concessions, State for Transport has announced substantial funding including free trips and reduced costs for a number of for research and development along those lines, to look trips over a specific limit. at electric vehicles and at investment in charging points, Motoring tax revenue is combined with all the other which were mentioned by the hon. Member for taxes that come in through the consolidated fund, and Scarborough and Whitby. supports a range of Government spending priorities, so I reassure the House that the Government are sensitive it is misleading to compare motoring tax revenue with to the impact of high fuel prices on those who live in road or transport spending by hypothecating revenue to rural areas. They often have no choice but to drive and spending on specific programmes. Doing so would reduce may have to travel further to access those essential flexibility, and could lead to misallocation of public services that are perhaps more readily available to city resources, and poor use of taxpayers’ money. dwellers. I will pick up on one point raised by my hon. Hon. Members referred to the fact that, when it is Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham sensible and effective so to do, we link such taxes to Stringer), who has unfortunately had to leave the debate. other Government objectives, such as environmental The Local Transport Act 2008 was introduced specifically objectives, and one instance of that is the vehicle excise because not everybody is able to drive, even if they live duty. Hon. Members are aware that tax-raising activities in rural areas. There may come a point where someone are matters for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of does not wish to drive, so alternatives are important if the Exchequer, who considers each tax as part of a we are to avoid social exclusion. That is one of the wider fiscal judgment in the normal Budget process, reasons why, among other things, the Local Transport taking into account social, environmental and economic Act 2008 allowed local authorities a stronger influence considerations. on maximum levels of fares, timings and frequencies of routes and, where appropriate, to introduce quality Mr. Goodwill: Has the Minister made any representations contract schemes such as those found in London. We to the Chancellor on resuming the rolling exemption for also changed community transport provisions—if I recall historic vehicles, which was 25 years, but now approaches correctly, section 19 and 21 licences—to help to ensure 40 years? that rural communities are better served. The Local Transport Act 2008 provides excellent opportunities for Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that local authorities, but it needs strong leadership to take any Department worth its salt has continuous discussions that forward. with the Chancellor and the Treasury, and those discussions As I have already emphasised, fuel duty is charged at continue on a range of taxation issues. I shall leave the a single rate across the UK. Higher prices in remote matter at that, because it is a continual process. areas have nothing to do with the level of duty and the 21WH Motoring9 MARCH 2010 Motoring 22WH regime in place. Prices have more to do with market kills. Going over the speed limit, or going too fast, was a forces such as higher transport costs or lower levels of contributory factor in 26 per cent. of fatalities in 2008, competition between fuel sellers in the region. It has the last full year for which figures are available. That been suggested, for example, that a reduced rate of fuel means that speed was a contributory factor in 586 of duty should be set in rural areas to bring prices down. the deaths recorded in 2008. Going over the speed limit, However, hon. Members will be aware that if that were as was the case in 14 of those fatal accidents, caused to happen, there is no guarantee that the reduction 362 deaths. That is one every single day. would be passed on at the pump, that prices would be However, the situation has improved. In 1998, 69 per any lower for those using those rural stations and would cent. of drivers went over the 30 mile-an-hour limit, but not simply be absorbed into the fuel seller’s margins. by 2008 that had fallen to below 50 per cent. That is an Furthermore, such a measure could distort the market important development. My hon. Friend the Member and lead to the perverse situation where people would for Manchester, Blackley asked about the national safety drive many miles to get “cheap fuel”, increasing carbon camera programme and its independent four-year study emissions. Drawing boundaries between high and low-duty from 2005. That study found that safety cameras had areas is likely to be quite arbitrary. led to a 42 per cent. cut in the number of people killed One or two other matters have been raised by hon. or seriously injured on the roads. In other words, 1,745 fewer Members. Insurance is decided by an assessment of the people were killed or seriously injured last year because risk of the individual involved and the group in which of speed cameras. Hon. Members will be aware that they fall for insurance purposes. It is a commercial speed cameras have been the responsibility of local decision by individual insurers based on their underwriting partnerships since 2007. They are a tool that local experience and the statistics and information that is authorities and safety partnerships have in their armoury available through numerous sources. Bearing in mind to make the roads safer in their local communities. As my responsibility for road safety, I have discussed with part of that process, since 2007 local authorities and people in the insurance industry what steps they might those safety partnerships receive a further £110 million be able to take. The hon. Member for Manchester, every year for road safety measures. Withington referred to the Norwich Union pay-as-you-go We believe that local authorities should look at 20 mile- programme, and that was a matter for it to decide on. an-hour zones and limits in predominantly residential There are opportunities out there, and the Government areas around schools, shops or play areas, for example, are ready to work with the insurance industry on motor and that has been widely welcomed. I recently held a insurance. The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby consultation on that and we will issue revised guidance referred to the continuous registration process which, shortly. On drink-driving, we are looking at the options. among other things, is about ensuring that we deal with There are complexities involved in reducing the limit to people who do not have insurance provision and so on. a lower level, but together with Sir Peter North we are That is essential. taking forward the work that he is undertaking as part Over the past five years, the hon. Member for Ribble of a new road safety strategy. Valley has made numerous statements on speed cameras—in This has been an interesting debate. Far from considering 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007, as well as publishing a motorists to be a scourge, as was claimed by the hon. formal statement in 2009. Let me say clearly that the Member for Ribble Valley who introduced the debate, I Government believe that speed cameras have a role to assure hon. Members that the Government take motorists play, and where appropriate—although they are not seriously and seek to ensure that the roads are safe and appropriate in all cases—they are a valuable and cost- as free from congestion as possible. We will continue to effective method of enforcing speed limits. There can be invest record sums in transport as we have done over the no doubt in the mind of any hon. Member that speed past 13 years. 23WH 9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 24WH

Raising of the Pension Age is increased to 66 to 2016. Does he think that that is about quality of life or helping employers, or simply to 11 am raise an extra £13 billion? Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): First, Harry Cohen: The hon. Gentleman anticipates my may I thank Mr. Speaker for granting me this debate on speech. I have those very points to make but, as he will the raising of the pension age? gather from my remarks, I agree with him. For various reasons, I am retiring at the next general election at the age of 60—after 44 years of work, I Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): might add—although I am prepared to continue my May I set the record straight? That is not the position of working life in other ways for a little longer, if I get the the Conservative party. Our position is to raise the chance. However, I have some unfinished business in the pension age from 2016, not by 2016. That is an extremely House, part of which relates to the proposed raising of important difference. the pension age. That proposal went through Parliament with relatively little controversy or debate, partly because Harry Cohen: I am not convinced and neither is the the proposal was extended into the future with the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). We will promise that it would be kept under review, which explore the issue further during the debate. mitigated the controversy.The Work and Pensions Minister Other reforms that the Government brought forward at the time, my right hon. Friend the Member for included a promise to increase the basic state pension in Stalybridge and Hyde (James Purnell), said: line with earnings by the end of the next Parliament, “Although I accept that there are limitations on what the although of course that assumes that there is not a hung current data can tell us, I am confident that our timetable for change will not disproportionately affect those with below-average or short Parliament. The Government suggested that life expectancy, as compared with their position today. As a the reform could be introduced by 2012, but the end of further safeguard, we have made clear our intention to commission the next Parliament could be 2015. I believe that that periodic reviews of the evidence on life expectancy, to ensure that promise will be reneged on, especially by a ToryGovernment our timetable remains on track. That will include consideration of who are looking to cut public expenditure sharply. whether the qualifying age for the guaranteed pension credit should remain at 65 after 2024”.—[Official Report, Pensions Bill The Government’s other reform was to build up Committee, 30 January 2007; c. 223.] private pensions over time through a state-set-up stock The mood music is now different, as I shall point out, exchange-linked fund called personal accounts, which and I think that the process is being driven by factors would cover more people than at present and make other than checking the data. them eligible for a pension. Although such schemes can work, as I saw for myself in Sweden with the Select I regret that the proposal went through Parliament so Committee on Work and Pensions, this one has got off easily because complicated and unfair aspects remain to a most unpromising start. It is meant to have unaddressed. The deal of raising the pension age on the contributions of 4 per cent. a year from the employee, one hand and giving benefits to pensioners on the other 3 per cent. from the employer and 1 per cent. from the will unravel. I believe that the raising of the pension age Government, but those figures are far too low for the will be brought forward, and that increase will be further scheme to be effective. Some workers will contribute but and faster, while the benefits will be reneged on and gain nothing out of it for their final pension. watered down, if they are supplied at all, and that is why I oppose raising the pension age. The Government cancelled the commitment to the contribution for two years to save public expenditure, Let me make a couple of factual points. The House and you can bet your life that a Conservative Government of Commons Library points out: would not pay either, as they would be concentrating on “It is important to stress that the ‘retirement age’ and the budget deficits. The cancellation for two years was an ‘pension age’ are not synonymous. The retirement age is the age at unpromising start. which one can be required to leave work. The pension age is the age at which one can start to draw an unreduced pension.” The current state pension age is 60 for women and The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society 65 for men, but it will rise for women from this year to (Angela Eagle): I will deal with the point about an 65 by 2020. It will rise for both men and women to unpromising start in my main response, but I want my 66 between 2024 and 2026, to 67 between 2034 and hon. Friend at least to admit that the 8 per cent. 2036, and to 68 between 2044 and 2046. contribution he talks about in the national employment savings trust is the minimum. We anticipate that many The Government’s reforms mitigate the worst effect employers and employees will see the sense in saving, on women by reducing the time for contributory work especially over time, and will increase their contributions from 39 to 30 years. I warmly welcome that, as it means from that minimum. that many more women will get a pension. However, I am concerned about the arbitrary date for eligibility because there could be a huge difference between the Harry Cohen: I accept that that could be a minimum. positions of a woman born on the cut-off date or just Indeed, some occupational pension funds are very good after, and that of a woman born a few days before that and might well give larger contributions when they date. That seems unfair, and the Government should transfer across. However, it is more likely that employers have been prepared to put a transitional arrangement in will keep the contributions right down and we will not place. see what the Minister describes. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): To follow on will be aware that the Conservative party plans to from what the Minister said, individuals and companies accelerate the point at which the retirement age for men are trying to cut their costs as much as possible. Does 25WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 26WH the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a lot of concern the Tories. I ask the hon. Gentleman what the Conservative that the absolute minimum will be put aside, not the party will put in its manifesto. If it shirks this issue and maximum? is elected, it will have no right to bring in a higher pension age; it has to be specific about its proposals Harry Cohen: That is certainly my fear. before the election, not after it. Many of the lowest paid workers, including those with a couple of part-time jobs, will not be in the Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): The shadow Chancellor scheme at all. Many employers will encourage their has argued that the Conservatives will restore the earnings workers to opt out so that they can save money. Although link by the end of the next Parliament, which will be the scheme is set up by the state, there is no state 2015, and he claims that the money to do that will come guarantee to back the fund. If the stock market collapses, from raising men’s and women’s pension ages. However, the fund could be devastated, as could individuals’ if men’s and women’s pension ages do not rise under the pension pots. Tories until some distant point in the future, they will not have the money to restore the earnings link, so they I argued in the Work and Pensions Committee that it will have to do precisely as the hon. Gentleman has would be perfectly feasible and reasonable for the indicated. Does he share my view? Government to guarantee fund growth of at least 1 or 1.5 per cent. a year. It is claimed that stock market Harry Cohen: That well-made point explains the investments grow at a significantly higher rate than that situation. I think that the pension age will go up to 70 if over time, so it would be relatively easy for the Government’s the Tories get elected. extra commitment in the bad years to be made up in the good ones. However, there is no such guarantee. Lord Turner, the chair of the Pensions Commission, has set the scene for the Tories, and he is a former This is not the bold scheme that was needed from a bosses’ leader, so we all know that he is sympathetic to Labour Government to replace our overall employer-based them. According to one report, he told the BBC in set-up. That set-up is very good when it comes to the August last year operation of pension funds, although that is true mainly for wealthier, well-organised workers. As we “that there were arguments made during his review that the pension age go up to 70 by as early as 2030.” know, however, occupational pension schemes are collapsing in all sorts of ways and do not cover enough workers by He said: a long way. “If I was redoing my report I would be more radical, arguing for an even faster increase in the state pension age”. The personal accounts fund will be left to wither under the Tories, however much they bluster now. It will That clearly contrasts with what he said in his report. be ripped off by consultants and pension fund managers who charge a high rate of interest. At the end of the Mr. Hands: Will the hon. Gentleman just remind us day, it is likely to be inadequate for many workers. which Government actually commissioned the Turner report? That, then, is the diminishing of the benefits side of the deal that brought in the raising of the pension age, but we should also look at what the Tories are signalling Harry Cohen: We all know that it was a Labour for the raising of the pension age to 66. As the hon. Government. However, Lord Turner also said in his Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) said, they are report: rushing it forward to 2016 for men and to 2020 for “Some people suggest that this expense should be offset by women. raising the state pensions age to, for instance, 70. This would however have the disadvantage that the losers would be those on lowest income: both because they will typically have worked for Mr. Hands: May I reiterate the Conservative party’s longer and because they have shorter life expectancy in retirement.” position? We have said: “We will hold a review into bringing forward the rise in the Bob Spink: While the hon. Gentleman is reminiscing, state pension age from 65 to 66, but starting no earlier than 2016 will he remind us which Government broke the earnings for men and 2020 for women”. link? I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would correct his statement and pledge to correct his website on this Harry Cohen: Indeed. It was a Conservative Government. matter. That cost pensioners enormous sums and increased pensioner poverty enormously. Harry Cohen: No, because the hon. Gentleman’s quote says that the Conservatives would be prepared to Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend mentioned the Turner rush the rise forward to 2016 for men and to 2020 for report, which was not purely the property of Lord women. The Pensions Policy Institute, speaking about Turner himself, but the result of a commission. Does raising the pension age to 66 for men from 2016, has my hon. Friend agree that the Turner commission said: said that every man under the age of 58 will be affected “we do not believe that a rapid increase over a short period (e.g. to and will have to save an extra £55 a month to bridge the 70 by 2030 as was suggested in some submissions to us) is gap of the lost year of pension. That is the burden that required”? the Tories are prepared to put on men, and it would affect women as well. Harry Cohen: Yes—that is a good point. I am amazed I think that the Tories are also prepared rapidly to by Lord Turner’s change of stance; perhaps he is positioning bring forward the date of implementation of the higher himself in the belief that there is going to be a Conservative ages and that, although this has not yet been stated, the Government. I am particularly amazed by that change pension age will become 70 within a short time under given that there has been a recession in the interim. 27WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 28WH

[Harry Cohen] Let us say it as it is. For most people over the age of 65, and sometimes earlier, the workplace is an incredibly Let us be clear: the Tories now see the raising of the hostile environment, particularly for those in the lower pension age as a budget deficit measure. Deficit reduction wealth quintiles. That will not be changed any time drives their policy on raising the pension age. However, soon. why should workers ready for retirement be denied it I favour people being able to work longer. That is and have their financial security removed from under what the Work and Pensions Committee said in its their feet to meet the cost of an economic crisis caused report, and the law should be changed to make that by the bankers? possible. However, it should be a matter of choice, not a The commission used the “living longer” argument to question of forcing people to do so when they are being justify bringing in a longer-term change in the pension denied the financial security of a pension. age, but that argument is deeply flawed. The situation is not helped by the fact that the actuaries who peddle John Mason: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s points that position have a vested interest, because insurance and I suspect that his constituency is a bit like mine. companies, big business and the Government, who want With the best will in the world, a lot of men—and to cut bills, are their main clients. Living longer is mixed women for that matter—who do very physical work and up with issues related to healthy ageing, but let us be are outside a lot of the time are physically not able to clear about the “living longer” argument. carry on at that level by the time they get to 60. Perhaps Recession, with its unemployment and poverty, reduces another job would be fine, if there was another one that life expectancy. I am acutely aware of the fact that that was suitable, but they are just not able to do the kind of was what a report said about people who have insufficient job they have been doing for 40 years. money in retirement, given that it was in the same week that the House unfairly docked my £65,000 resettlement Harry Cohen: The hon. Gentleman makes a good grant. We should just look at the example of Russia’s point, particularly about manual trades and people transformation to capitalism. The economic collapse from lower income backgrounds. cut life expectancy by a huge amount. Under the Tories, I agree with the Government’s pension paper of we had three recessions, at least two of which were December 2002, “Simplicity, security and choice: Working incredibly deep, and we have now had an awful recession and saving for retirement”, which said: under Labour, thanks to the bankers. Although it is true “It is important that people have the choice to work beyond that the NHS, which has been well funded until now, age 65, whereas raising the State Pension age would leave many of has kept many more people alive, it is likely to have to those on low incomes with no option but to continue working.” endure a period of cutbacks which, if the Tories are It continued: elected, will probably be severe. “An increase in State Pension age would also reduce long-term As regards employment rates for those aged between public expenditure”— 50 and the statutory pension age being on a gradual that is why it is attractive to the Tories. However, the upward path—I stress the word “gradual”—during good paper continued to say that that economic times, the first Turner report said: “would disproportionately affect lower-income people who rely “The absence of major macroeconomic shocks comparable to more on state benefits in retirement. The same people tend also to the recessions of the early 1980s and early 1990s has meant that have lower life expectancies, and so, with fewer years in retirement, fewer workers in their fifties have been made redundant; while for they would see a disproportionate reduction in their income. The those who have faced redundancy, the general tightness of the effect might be particularly severe on those who have done labour market has made re-entry into the labour market easier”— manual work for long periods in heavy industries, in which there well, not now, and that should be taken into account. is a record of low life expectancy.” The Turner commission’s first report said: That is exactly why I believe that raising the pension age “The recently launched English Longitudinal Study of Ageing…will without addressing that structural unfairness would be provide a far better evidence base on the impact of ageing, but one of the biggest boosts to inequality in this country unfortunately not for many years.” for decades. On health and ageing, it said: Here is what the Marmot review, which was published “Analysis on this issue is frustratingly incomplete…From these last month, had to say: data we simply do not know what the truth is.” “More than three-quarters of the population do not have One key point that the report made was: disability-free life expectancy as far as the age of 68. If society wishes to have a healthy population, working until 68 years, it is “Major inequalities in life expectancy and health between essential to take action to both raise the general level of health socio-economic groups may make across the board increases in and flatten the social gradient.” retirement ages infeasible and inequitable, unless those differences erode over time.” I have no confidence that that will happen if the Tories However, there is no sign that they are likely to erode get in. The Pensions Commission found that there was a significantly over time. major gap in life expectancy between socio-economic classes, affecting both men and women, and it is not The report did, however, state that early inactivity for narrowing. I believe that it will worsen with the raising men aged 55 to 59 is concentrated in the lowest two and of the pension age. the highest wealth quintiles, with the lowest two quintiles describing themselves as sick or unemployed. The Pensions There has also been change with the introduction of Policy Institute pointed out that the employment and support allowance, which is what a “there is a significant transition from full-time or part-time working-age person who could not draw a pension employment into ‘inactivity’ past age 59. Approximately 80 per would have to live on. That is less than the basic state cent. of men aged 55-59 are in employment, falling to 60 per cent. pension, and considerably less than what used to be aged 60-64, and only 20 per cent. aged 65-69.” called the minimum income guarantee for pensioners. 29WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 30WH

That, in my view, makes raising the pension age The first point I want to touch on is about unacceptable for most workers, but especially those individualisation and personalisation. We heard those from poorer backgrounds, and I oppose it. words a lot during the passage of the Welfare Reform Pensioner poverty is quite extensive. The Select Act 2009. We had assurances from Ministers that people Committee has discussed the fact that, despite a marked would be treated as individuals and that there would be decline since 1997, there are still 2 million pensioners in personal care for people. However, the reality that many poverty, and 1.1 million who live on less than 50 per of us see in our constituencies is that when people go to cent. of median income, which it describes as unacceptable. the Jobcentre Plus office or deal with the UK Border The basic state pension is too low, and it falls too far Agency or any of those huge departments, they do not short of removing poverty in retirement for all pensioners. get individualised or personalised care. That is a big The argument is that many people now have savings concern, as we deal with such a wide range of older and private pensions to supplement their income, but I people in society. would add that many do not. The supplementary income The health of people when they reach their 60s or argument is used to drive down the relative worth of the 70s—or even earlier—covers a phenomenal range. My basic state pension. I believe that that will continue, mother is 82 and in very good health, but I know many especially with a Conservative Government, and that people in Glasgow, East who are worn out in their late that argument will be used, in time, to break the link 40s or 50s because of ill health, and many other issues. with earnings again, if it is ever brought in. I do not Although average life expectancy is going up, as the approve of that argument by which the basic state hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead said, the range pension can be allowed to decline, as it inevitably means of life expectancy is huge. Male life expectancy in my extensive pensioner poverty. constituency remains at below 70. If we make 70 the Tax breaks and tax credits for the wealthy are enormous. pension age, theoretically no one would get there, although Limiting them, as the TUC suggests, could save £10 billion, I accept that there is a range. Although life expectancy and such an approach would be reasonable. For example, at the top end goes up and up, at the bottom it does not the TUC says that do so to the same extent. “just 3.1 per cent. of the taxpayer population receive 31 per cent. People’s ability to work varies hugely as they approach of all tax relief, averaging £18,750 a year”. retirement, as does their desire to work, but it depends If it were capped to £5,000 for those earning more than on the kind of work that they have been doing. The £100,000, that would raise £10 billion a year, which skills of older people vary, too. They may have used could make a significant contribution to closing the largely physical skills, doing outside work in parks, on deficit. The TUC points out: the streets or wherever, or they may have done the sort “People earning between £70,000 and £100,000 on average of intellectual work that we are more used to. Another claim £4,500 in tax allowances, so a £5,000 limit for those earning factor that has not been mentioned is that of caring, more than £100,000 seems a fair limit”. and the many caring responsibilities that many older I agree with that, and it seems to be the right way people have these days. In the past, they were often forward. The basic state pension could be raised over quite light—seeing the grandchildren or the great- time to an above-poverty level, and tax could be properly grandchildren once in a while—but for many they are applied to overall income so that it could be paid for, now quite onerous. including by wealthy pensioners. As I said, male life expectancy in my constituency I heard the Prime Minister say that the cost of the remains at under 70, and in some parts of Glasgow, two wars that we have just had was £18 billion beyond including in parts of my constituency and nearby, it is the core defence budget. The Defence Secretary added well below that. I suspect that that is the case in other yesterday on the radio that there is another £5 billion to parts of the United Kingdom. Yet only a few miles away come next year for Afghanistan. The approach was some people live for considerably longer, as they would being described as “money no object”. I believe that in this part of the world. with no war, and with a degree of will, proper income for pensioners could be arranged without raising the Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman is making a pension age. characteristically thoughtful speech. He will accept, I think, that the differences that he describes have always 11.27 am been there. It has always been the case that the hard-pressed manual worker dies at a younger age than the professional. John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): I did not realise Those differences will always exist, and whatever the that I would be the only other Back Bencher to speak. I pension age it will always have a differential impact. Is it think I will probably take a bit less than half an hour for the hon. Gentleman’s view that those differences militate my few comments. against ever changing the pension ages; or, if the average I congratulate the hon. Member for Leyton and is moving up but we still have dispersion, does he Wanstead (Harry Cohen) on securing the debate on believe that it would justify some upward movement? an extremely important issue. I do not know his constituency well, although my brother used to live there, and I have John Mason: Yes, but we need to be reasonable. been to one of its football grounds. However, I assume However, there is broad acceptance. The hon. Member that in the east end of London the problems and for Leyton and Wanstead said that there had not been issues are similar to those in the east end of Glasgow. much debate or controversy about the original changes There are many questions in the debate, and perhaps in the rules. I do not have a problem with the idea, nor not many clear answers. Perhaps we cannot expect do my constituents or society at large, that the pension them, but it is important that we should debate the age will gradually rise. The question is how we are to issues. deal with the wider range of ages. 31WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 32WH

[John Mason] of it. It said that the 10th richest percentile of the population have 96 times the wealth of the 10th lowest Although the hon. Member for Northavon (Steve percentile. That gap has become wider over the last Webb) was right to say that there has always been a couple of decades. The report states that the top 10 per range of ages, without going into the statistics it seems cent. of the population have average wealth of at least to me that that range is getting wider. At the top end, £853,000 and that the lowest 10 per cent. have £8,800 at many people are living into their 90s and even beyond the most. That is an incredible gap, and it is not acceptable. 100, yet the increase at the bottom end seems not to be Society will have to consider whether it is acceptable for as great. I stand to be corrected on the statistics, but the gap to become even wider. whatever they are, we are dealing with a wide range. I return to the Library briefing. It cites a review of the Oxford Review of Economic Policy by Professor Angela Eagle: The statistics might cast some light on Nicholas Barr. He said: this. They are clearly projections, and they have to be “Raising retirement age has analogous regressive effects, since kept under review, as do all statistics. workers from poorer backgrounds typically start work earlier and On the whole, the increase in state pension age will hence make contributions for longer, but have a shorter life not result in a reduction in the number of people who expectancy than better-off workers. It can be argued that pension survive to pension age. Indeed, it is projected to increase design alone cannot solve problems of wider inequality, which require a broad range of policies including nutrition, health care, slightly. At the moment, 83 per cent. of men and 89 per occupational safety, and education and training. But at a minimum cent. of women born in 1955 are expected to reach the it suggests a potential role for other instruments, notably disability state pension age of 65 in 2020. However, of those born pension, to reduce regressivity.” in 1978, 85 per cent. of men, which is 2 per cent. higher, We must consider how much compulsion there is to and 90 per cent. of women, which is 1 per cent. higher, save. Other European countries and Ireland have recently are expected to reach the state pension age of 68 in said that they are moving in that direction. It would 2046. What Parliament did when it legislated to increase obviously mean employers having to contribute, as well the pension age gradually was to keep the percentages as employees. Some have suggested that educating people fairly similar; but it slightly increased the number projected to save more would be sufficient—that we should explain to be able to retire despite the rise in age. to people that they need to save more for their retirement. It seems to me that the reality is different. For example, John Mason: I thank the Minister for that clarification. young people across the board, no matter what their I have no problem with what she says. Again, the background, have a tendency not to think of retiring. emphasis tends to be on the average, but I am more than That is human nature. Another reality is that those on happy to accept the figures. However, we should remember limited incomes are not able, even if they are willing, to that the average covers an incredibly wide range of put much aside. people. My point is that we should ensure that the system cares for the individuals, whether before or after Angela Eagle: The hon. Gentleman is making an retirement age. We must emphasise that, and remember interesting case for compulsion in saving. Automatic that there is a wide range of ages. enrolment attempts to use inertia rather than compulsion. I found the Library briefing on the pension age Is he saying that it is the policy of the Scottish National useful. It states: Party to compel people to save? “An increase in State Pension age would also reduce long-term John Mason: At this stage, I am simply saying that we public expenditure. However, it would disproportionately affect lower-income people who rely more on state benefits in retirement. need to consider it. Other countries are certainly considering The same people tend also to have lower life expectancies, and so, it. My personal thoughts would lean in that direction. with fewer years in retirement, they would see a disproportionate However, it would have to be tied in with the minimum reduction in their income. The effect might be particularly severe wage, which at present is far too low. We cannot expect on those who have done manual work for long periods in heavy people to save from such a limited income. industries, in which there is a record of low life expectancy.” However, some very profitable employers are not The reality is that some of those at the top—that contributing to their employees’ well-being both in the includes people such as my mother who have increased sense of the minimum wage and the pension contribution. life expectancy—is not matched across the board. The I am happy that the Government have moved forward type of work that one does is clearly a factor. I am an in some ways, but, as a society, I fear that we are putting accountant and a Member of Parliament, and I could too much emphasis on the individual’s choice. Although, work until the age of 70. However, those in very physical on the whole, I support individual choice, we as a jobs cannot do so. society have to pick up the pieces, and we need to look Another question is whether people can afford to at how much people are saving. retire. It is clear that people have not been saving As life expectancy increases, the spread gets wider, enough, and that things are going to get worse as too. Some people in society might retire at 70 and then pension schemes close or benefits are cut. We have live for another 20 years, and that would be great. We already touched on the fact that companies might do would all like to draw our pension from the age of 70 to the minimum compared with what happened in the the age of 90. However, many in my constituency and past, when many did a lot more than that. The danger elsewhere could be retiring at 60 and living fewer than for society is that the strongest will grab the most, and 10 years and drawing a pension at that time. We need to the most vulnerable will be left behind. The gap between work together as a society. We cannot rely entirely on an rich and poor will get wider. individual saving for themselves. Some of the figures in a recent report on inequality Therefore, there are more questions than answers at jump out dramatically, although the report was quite this stage. A piecemeal approach to pension provision, lengthy, and I admit that I did not consume every word as is happening, does not seem to be working. Although 33WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 34WH we all understand that the pension age and retirement gap—albeit temporarily—between male and female state age are two separate things, they are very much linked. pension ages. I do not know whether the hon. Member How do we get more individuality and encourage individual for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) will tell us responsibility, yet protect the most vulnerable? about the legal advice that was sought either before or The Pensions Commission report of 2005 stated: since that announcement on whether it is legal to increase “Faced with the increasing proportion of the population aged the gap between male and female state pension ages in over 65, society and individuals must choose between four options. an era of equality legislation. I doubt whether it is legal. Either pensioners will become poorer relative to the rest of If such a measure were put into practice, I strongly society; or taxes/National Insurance contributions devoted to suspect that a man would take that future Conservative pensions must rise; or savings must rise; or average retirement Government to court for treating him disadvantageously ages must rise. But the first option (poorer pensioners) appears relative to women, and I think that he might win his unattractive; and there are significant barriers to solving the case. problem through any one of the other three options alone. Some mix of higher taxes/National Insurance contributions, higher savings and later retirement ages is required.” Harry Cohen: That is a very good point. Does the That is a very good summary of the position. We need hon. Gentleman not think that if the Conservatives are to consider the three options of increased taxes or looking to increase the male retirement age to 66 by national insurance, savings and average retirement ages 2016 they may say that because of the legal challenge to increasing. None the less, the fear is that the first the equality law, they have to introduce it for women by option, which means that pensioners will become poorer, 2016 as well? might be where we are heading. Steve Webb: That would be even more unreasonable 11.42 am given that at the moment, women’s pension age will have reached only 63 by 2016. We have heard different Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): I congratulate the versions of the Conservative proposal. Last October, hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen) the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, on bringing this important issue before the House. It is the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May), one to which we have not devoted enough attention. said: Although we are talking about what happens post 2020 “We will bring forward the date when the pension age rises.” when we go from 65 to 68, I strongly suspect that our mailbags will start to fill up very soon with letters from The Tory party website says: women who did not know that the age was going up “We will review the state pension age, to consider whether the from 60. Although that change—I think that I am right increase…should be brought forward.” in saying this—was contained in a pensions Act in the Therefore, it is not clear whether Conservatives will mid-1990s— change the date, but the point that I made when I intervened on the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead Angela Eagle: The change was in the Pensions Act 1995, is critical. The shadow Chancellor said, “We are making and there was a lead-in time of 15 years. a tough choice. We are raising pension ages to pay for the earnings link. We are being straight with you; the Steve Webb: The Minister does not need to be quite earnings link costs money. We can’t get money from so defensive. A Tory Government passed the legislation, nowhere, so we will pay for it by raising pension ages.” so I was not attacking her. When I said a pensions Act That was the quid pro quo and it was courageous of of the mid-1990s, I was referring to the 1995 Act. The him to say that. However, we should look behind the point I was trying to make is that it can take an awfully scenes and ask, “If the state pension age is not going to long time for people to know about such changes. be increased until 2016 or 2022, where does the money Given that only those aged 45 or younger would be come from for the earnings link by 2015?” The sums do affected, not many of them were thinking very hard not seem to add up, so I hope that we will have an about their pensions in 1995, and that is one of the answer to that today. problems. We need a long lead-in to such changes. Going back to process, Professor Nicholas Barr has I want to consider issues of both process and substance. been quoted once already today. He said something else The issue about the process is how we make the decision. about process in his evidence to the Work and Pensions A number of principles need to be adopted here. In a Committee in 2006. He was talking about the long-term sense the 1995 Act was right to give 15 years’ warning. signalling, and he said: It does not surprise people, it gives them the chance to “If what people hear is that the retirement age will rise from plan ahead and enables them to think about their own 60 to 65, they think, ‘I’m going to have to work 5 years longer; we personal and private pension arrangements and to mesh are a1l going to have to work 5 years longer.’ If you do it right, as the two together in a calm, ordered and measured way. we did it for raising women’s retirement age, you announce the The wrong way to do it is what we saw at the Tory party change a long time in advance so nobody is affected in the short conference last year when the shadow Chancellor pulled run. Thus you do not give people nasty, short-run surprises, but a rabbit out of his hat and announced an increase in the phase in the change gradually.” male state pension age. When quizzed on women, he That is absolutely right, and is clearly not what the announced that there would be a review. As ever when it Conservatives did last October. Moreover, they claimed comes to pensions, it is as if women are an afterthought. spurious amounts of revenue from the change. The That is clearly not the way in which to change state National Institute of Economic and Social Research pension ages. We already have a measured, phased had done some research into the long-term Exchequer process going through. Women’s pension ages are rising flow-backs of a phased increase in retirement ages. The from 60 to 65 because of equalisation. It seems perverse Conservatives lifted the figure from that report and for a potential party of Government to increase the said, “If we put up the pension age by one year for men, 35WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 36WH

[Steve Webb] current plans are from 2020 and they are to raise the state pension age for men and women by three years we will get so many billion pounds back.” The institute over a 25-year period. At an increase of two years per said, “That is not what we said.” It had talked about a decade, however, standing still would imply that the much longer term process whereby people’s behaviour state pension age should be raised by five years, as a rule has time to change, and its research was about raising of thumb. So, even the rises that are in the pipeline will retirement ages. The point has already been made that probably fall slightly further behind the advance of life pension ages are not retirement ages. If we simply jack expectancy. That is probably where Adair Turner is up the age from 65 to 66, there will be a lot of men to coming from when he says that perhaps he should have whom we pay another benefit—whatever it might gone further. I have a feeling that if we asked a standing be—instead of a state pension. We will not save money body to look at this issue again and to keep looking at because they will not magically go on working; many of it, it might regard an increase of one year per decade them have already stopped working by 65. It is easy to until 2044 as slightly too slow. Consensus is changing wave around a large number and sound impressive and on this issue and I have a feeling that we will end up claim that it is based on complex economic modelling, moving faster than that. However, the plans for the but, if we want an answer, we have to ask the same seventh Lib Dem term of Government are still a bit question as the researchers. fluid at the moment, so I am not making a policy We need stability and a transparent process. The pledge for 2045. Turner Commission was right to say—and the Government The only caveat about that change is that, of course, have not accepted this—that there should be a standing actuaries notoriously get these things wrong. I once body. By that I mean an ongoing body, separate from said to a senior actuary, “Look, isn’t an actuary’s job in the cut and thrust of party conference speeches, which life just one thing, which is to work out how long we’re reviews not just average life expectancies but, as the all going to live, and don’t you keep getting it wrong?” hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason) reminded He replied, “No, we get lots of other things wrong as us, the dispersion of life expectancy—that is very important. well”, which was not the most reassuring answer that I I made the point to him that any pension age is unfair in had ever heard. So we cannot just assume that life the sense that some people will not reach it and others expectancy will go on rising inexorably. Childhood obesity, will live long past it, so there is a regressive element to or a similar problem, could lead some generations to having a state pension age. I suspect that the statistics live for less time than their predecessors. Personally, that the Minister cited when she intervened reflected a however, I do not think that we are anywhere near that narrowing of the differentials. It is true that someone point. who has slogged their guts out in heavy manual labour Therefore, we need to keep this issue under review, will tend to die young, but the number of such jobs are but in a way that is measured, incremental and independent, gradually diminishing for all sorts of reasons. so that there are no sudden surprises and no expressions Although that change takes a very long time to work of, “Ooh, there’s a hole in my budget, I want a fancy its way through the system, over time it will do that. I policy commitment but how can I pay for it? Oh, I’ll would therefore imagine that the proportion of the jack up the pension age”. We want none of that sort of constituents of the hon. Member for Glasgow, East nonsense; we want measured, steady progress on this who retire after a lifetime of heavy manual work is issue, so that people can plan ahead. declining every year or, if not, it will decline soon. So I I thought that the hon. Member for Glasgow, East hope that this issue of dispersion will diminish, but, like made a very interesting suggestion when he quoted the poor, it will always be with us. There will always be Nicholas Barr about an early retirement disability pension. dispersion and he is right to remind us of that. Perhaps we could call it the invalidity pension or something My feeling is that, if people are slogging themselves similar—I do not know. In a way, that suggestion may into an early grave through heavy manual work, we be part of the answer to the situation of a male manual should not fix that situation through the pension system worker who retires early in poor health. If we cannot but through what we do about the labour market, govern the entire pension system for 10 million including the terms and conditions of work, occupational pensioners—eventually 15 million—around a particular health and so on. As the hon. Gentleman said, this issue group of such manual workers, perhaps we can have is not just about pensions; it is about everything that we some type of targeted support for that group that is not do about working lives, life expectancies, neighbourhoods grotesquely expensive, because it will not be paid to and so on. It is a big issue. Again, that is why I think everybody, but that recognises the fact that, if we are that a standing commission, which would examine this not careful, any changes in retirement ages will prejudice issue and consider which groups will gain or lose through some groups. the changes is the best way forward, taking the matter That is a very helpful point, which I will take away out of the daily cut and thrust of politics. from this debate. The hon. Gentleman’s suggestion might We cannot do nothing; we cannot stand still. I suppose be one way of squaring the circle. If there are particular that I slightly part company with the hon. Member for identifiable groups who will lose out from a general rise Leyton and Wanstead at this point. I do not know if in the state pension age, some tailored measure of that this statistic is entirely accurate, but it is said that every sort might be the most nuanced policy response. 10 years, average life expectancies rise by two years. The state pension age is, of course, only part of the Alternatively, for the 90 minutes that we will spend in story. The state pension is now a much smaller part of this debate, we will all live 18 minutes longer, or it might people’s income in retirement than it was in the past. just feel like it—I do not know. The whole package of income in retirement is important. Therefore, the question is what we do about that So it is not just a question of when someone can get the increase in average life expectancies. The Government’s state pension, but how much they can get. 37WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 38WH

There are trends in the labour market that I think are 11.56 am particularly detrimental to women pensioners. Not only Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): will women now have to wait until they are 65 for their I congratulate the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead state pension, but when they draw a pension it is increasingly (Harry Cohen) on securing this debate. I also congratulate likely not to be a final salary pension but a money him on a very well crafted speech, as well as giving him purchase pension of the sort that the hon. Member for my best wishes for his retirement. Leyton and Wanstead commented on in his contribution. Of course, money purchase pensions tend to be based Like the hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason), on life expectancies. So, instead of a woman getting a I have visited the football ground in the constituency of final salary pension based on what she used to earn, the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead. I must say which would be the same as for a male counterpart that it was a particularly memorable day, not for the who earned the same amount, she will now get a game of football—the score was Leyton Orient 0, Plymouth money purchase pension that is lower for women than Argyle 0—but for the meeting afterwards of the Plymouth for men, because it must be invested and because women Argyle Supporters Association. The guest speaker was tend to live longer than men. That seems perverse. It the late Michael Foot and it was a particular pleasure to seems to be a rule of pensions that women tend to lose see him then. Indeed, that Plymouth Argyle event was out and there is a risk that, after making so much the last time that I saw the former leader of the Labour progress on women’s pensions—as the Minister party alive. I must say that he gave the most exhilarating knows, I welcome the 2010 changes—we are now going speech. I think that it was one of the best speeches that I backwards, because of a greater reliance on money have ever heard, although it was about Plymouth Argyle’s purchase pensions. Women will not only not be able to 1928 FA cup run. There were certainly no interventions draw those pensions until later than they do now, but, from the assembled supporters during that speech. when they finally draw them, they will be lower their [HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] male counterparts’ pensions. I want to draw these threads together. I think that it is I also wanted to congratulate the hon. Member for inevitable that state pension ages will rise, and my hunch Leyton and Wanstead on making his case so robustly. is that they will rise somewhat faster than has been Shall we say that he made it from a characteristically pencilled in. However, in my view the decision should not left-wing viewpoint? His stance was pretty much to be partisan, party political and short-term, but taken one ignore this country’s gaping £175 billion deficit, as if it step away from party politics, along the lines that the did not matter. Also, I noticed from his website, which I Turner commission suggested. Furthermore, people will studied yesterday evening, that he has actually taken need plenty of warning of any rise in state pension ages. to praising the Prime Minister, which I am sure has However, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, East said not happened before, for his conversion to Keynesian we must also look at dispersion and not just at the policies. That says something about the leftwards lurch average ages of retirement,. There are probably tailored in the Labour party. Mr. Bayley, I welcome you to solutions that will enable us to deal with that issue, the Chair. while recognising the welcome fact that we are living Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman slightly ruined longer and that the pensions system— parts of his speech by getting just a little too enthusiastic in talking about deep recessions in the 1980s and 1990s, Angela Eagle: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? casually ignoring the fact that the deepest recession of Steve Webb: I had just reached a beautiful conclusion, all since the 1930s has been, of course, the one that we but never mind,. I give way to the Minister. are just coming out of, and that has taken place under the Government whom he professes to support. Angela Eagle: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. The hon. Gentleman also made some slightly bizarre Gentleman’s peroration. However, I was just wondering comments. For example, he suggested that Lord Turner what sort of tailored solutions he had in mind to deal was trying to curry favour with the Conservative party. with the question of dispersion. I ask that because there If that is the case, he does not seem to be doing it very is an issue of the class or socio-economic bias of longevity successfully, given the fact that we are pledged to abolish and I wondered whether he had anything particular in his organisation, the Financial Services Authority. mind when he talked about tailored solutions. The hon. Gentleman raised several interesting points, Steve Webb: I have two specific ideas in mind. The with which I will deal in detail. One was the possible first was the idea that I mentioned of exploring the role effect of any raise in the pension age on inequality, of disability pensions as a kind of early retirement which I think that we would all agree has increased pension for a very specific sub-group, so that we might under the current Labour Government. However, I say, “If we push the pension age up for everybody, there doubt whether his proposals would make much difference. is a small group who will be left behind who may have I will discuss the meat of his arguments in due course. had a particular life experience—for example, ill health The hon. Member for Glasgow, East made some or early retirement—and we may need a specific mechanism similar points and mentioned the important factor of of support for that group”. differential life expectancies, with which I am familiar, The second, and wider, idea is also related to something as my constituency includes large estates ranking among that I mentioned earlier: these socio-economic inequalities this country’s bottom 1 per cent. in terms of deprivation, have pretty deep roots and that there is a raft of social literally next door to some of the country’s wealthiest policies that one could think of to deal with them. As I people. Differential life expectancies are an issue in my have said, this is not just a pensions issue and it is not constituency. He was right to say that in debates such as just a DWP issue, and our policy making needs to this, the focus is inevitably on average life expectancy reflect that. rather than the range of life expectancies. As was said in 39WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 40WH

[Mr. Greg Hands] That is utterly untrue. We have said that they will be restricted to poorer families, not scrapped. I would be interventions on his speech, it would be difficult to grateful if he corrected that reference as well. This design a pension system that took into account the debate gives me the opportunity to set the record straight. range of life expectancies, but we would be interested to In his article “Pension Justice” on the Poptel website consider any proposals of his. He also made some valid and again today, the hon. Member for Leyton and observations about wealth inequality. Wanstead discussed the widening gap in life expectancy The hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) made between the rich and poor. We all agree that that is a several interesting points. He kicked off by discussing concern, but maintaining the status quo on pensions the need for a long lead-in before any changes, citing the will not do anything to address it. If we accepted his 15-year lead-in of the Pensions Act 1995. That is a valid line of reasoning, the logical outcome would be different point—we would all like as long a lead-in and warning retirement ages for different professions or those from as possible—but we must also consider what is affordable. different socio-economic groups. I am not sure whether Getting the balance right is the key question before us he would necessarily advocate that, but it certainly today. follows from what he and others have said. The hon. Member for Northavon made a number of There is a blatant inconsistency in the hon. Gentleman’s points without setting out any policy of his own, as far argument. If it is unfair in his terms to raise the retirement as I could tell, about what the retirement age should be. age for all when the rich live longer than the poor, how He attacked the Conservative party’s proposals, including can it possibly be fair to maintain a lower retirement asking whether we had taken legal advice. I am not age for women when women live longer than men? I aware of any Liberal Democrat policy that has come would be grateful if he explained that. If life expectancy with legal advice attached. Perhaps he would like to is the touchstone of fairness, the hon. Gentleman ought attach legal advice to some of his proposed policies on to advocate a retirement age well in excess of 65 for this issue and others. women that is phased in as quickly as possible. That would take his argument to its logical conclusion. I do Angela Eagle: The hon. Gentleman must admit that not think from his demeanour that he is in favour of there is an issue with equality and the requirements in doing so. Most people accept that differentiating state European law to equalise pension ages, to which the pensions according to life expectancy would be unfair previous Conservative Government responded by passing and unworkable. On the same grounds, continuing to the 1995 Act. Perhaps he can give us at least an indication. differentiate according to sex cannot be right in the Surely Conservative Front Benchers took some kind of longer term, particularly when life expectancy suggests legal advice on their proposal to increase the male the opposite case. That is a matter of common ground retirement age in 2016—that is certainly what the shadow between the Opposition and the Government. Chancellor appeared to be saying in his speech—and To return to the matter in hand, it is the Labour the female retirement age either straight away in 2016 or Government who have destroyed pensions in this country, in 2020. If the Conservatives propose the latter, they contrary to what is said on the hon. Gentleman’s website. would be legislating to make the retirement ages unequal Labour’s first welfare reform Minister, the right hon. again, which is clearly against European law. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), summarised Labour’s record on pensions when he said on Radio 4 in September Mr. Hands: I thank the Minister for that lengthy 2004 that intervention. To correct her, our policy is to raise the “when Labour came to power we had one of the strongest pension age at some point after 2016. It is important pension provisions in Europe and now probably we have some of to do that. In terms of some of the details of the the weakest”. implementation, we will have to wait and see. She can In my contribution to this debate, I will stick to a argue the issue during the coming general election simple plan, outlining first the Labour Government’s campaign. failures on pension provision and then the Conservatives’ The hon. Member for Northavon discussed the need plans in the short and long term to do something about for measured, steady progress, with which I think we it. According to the Office for National Statistics, the would all agree, but he did not say towards what, in number of people in private sector pension schemes fell terms of a retirement age. He said that he departed from 6.2 million in 1995 to 3.6 million in 2008. As the somewhat in his conclusions from the hon. Member for right hon. Member for Birkenhead said, we had one of Leyton and Wanstead. To be fair to the hon. Member the strongest private pension systems in 1997, but not for Leyton and Wanstead, his conclusion was absolutely any more. clear, but the hon. Member for Northavon rather left The Prime Minister himself, as Chancellor, raided the impression that he was still on the same vehicle, pension funds, taking £5 billion a year out of people’s having failed to outline any idea of what he thought the savings. Occupational pension schemes have closed down retirement age should be. under the ever-increasing weight of regulation and I urge the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead to bureaucracy, while Labour has allowed a pensions apartheid correct his website, which says that to grow up between the public and private sectors. “the Shadow Chancellor George Osborne has said that he would John Mason: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that it save £13 billion a year by raising the retirement age for men and women to 66 by 2016.” is because of regulation that defined benefits schemes are closing down? Most parts of that sentence are untrue, as I have explained. In fact, his website is riddled with untruths about Mr. Hands: Yes, partly. The excessive extra regulation Conservative policies. He says that piled on in that area is certainly part of it. I think that “900,000 children would miss out on Child Trust Funds which the the general climate under this Government for pensions Tories have said they will scrap.” has been extremely unhelpful. 41WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 42WH

Under Labour, more and more pensioners have been In conclusion, we believe that raising the pension age dragged into the web of means-testing. The means test should be combined with a renewed commitment to is an insult to the dignity of older people. Government re-link the state pension to earnings growth in the next figures show that the poorest pensioners are getting Parliament to ensure a decent standard of living for all poorer, while many are not claiming the benefits to in retirement, halt the spread of means-testing and which they are entitled due to the complexity of the restore the incentive to save. Through a new office for system. Not surprisingly, therefore, recent polls have budget responsibility, an incoming Conservative shown that 51 per cent. of people would not trust the Government would carry out a full review of public Government to act in their best interests on pensions. sector pension liabilities and other questions that are That was published in a document entitled “Trust and before us. The Government should find ways to cap the confidence in pensions and pension providers”, issued biggest Government pensions, including those of senior by the DWP itself in October 2007. civil servants. The shadow Chancellor outlined further Where do the Conservatives stand? We recognise that proposals at the Conservative party conference last we need to tackle the debt crisis, which will also affect year. Our biggest ambition is to reverse the effects of many pensioners, while ensuring a decent standard of the Prime Minister’s tax raid on pensions, which can be living in old age. That is why we are calling— fulfilled only once we have got on top of the deficit. That may take more than one Parliament to achieve, Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. The subject of this but we are determined to get Britain saving. debate is raising the pension age. The hon. Gentleman The Government have an astonishingly bad record in should restrict his remarks to that proposition rather this area. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s than making a more general statement about his party’s explanation of where we go from here. I have outlined pensions policy. the position of an incoming Conservative Government—we look forward to implementing it. Mr. Hands: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Bayley. 12.13 pm We are calling for a review of the state pension age The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society coupled with the re-link of the state pension to earnings (Angela Eagle): The debate has been revealing and growth to provide a larger pension for all. We believe interesting, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the that the Government should announce an updated review Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen) on of the state pension age, as recommended by Adair securing it and on his speech. Although I did not agree Turner’s Pensions Commission. with every aspect of his analysis, as ever he showed great insight. He has a great record of pursuing issues Angela Eagle: Parliament has legislated to re-link of pensioner well-being and poverty through the Work earnings and pensions within the lifetime of the next and Pensions Committee, of which he ought to be Parliament. The hon. Gentleman is saying that that will proud. be coupled with an increase in the state pension age. My hon. Friend spoke about the unpromising start of Even according to the rather muddled speeches of the the national employment savings trust. This is a landmark shadow Chancellor, that will not happen until 2016, pension reform and its size and complexity should not which is after the lifetime of the next Parliament. Can be underestimated. It deals with the biggest gap in the hon. Gentleman explain the inconsistency? pension saving, which concerns those on medium and lower earnings in the private sector. When it is up and Mr. Hands: There is no inconsistency. We have said running, it will give up to 10 million people—including that we will restore the earnings link by the end of the 7 million to 9 million new savers—guaranteed employer next Parliament. There is also the question of how that and Government contributions to a workplace pension will be funded, which the Government are ignoring. We for the first time in many years. At present, the default believe that a review should consider whether the rise in option is no saving at all, and that has been happening the pension age from 65 to 66 should be brought since the previous Conservative Government made the forward from 2026, but start no earlier than 2016 for changes to personal and private pensions that destroyed men and 2020 for women. I look forward to seeing the pension provision in this country. corrections on the website of the hon. Member for This landmark reform has been achieved through Leyton and Wanstead in relation to Conservative policy. consensus across the board. Although my hon. Friend does not agree with all aspects of it, I hope that he Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman is being generous supports the use of inertia, which means that people in giving way. I believe he criticised me a moment ago will be enrolled automatically. This is the best chance for not being specific about where we should end up. that there has been for a long time to improve the saving Will he explain in what way promising a review is and retirement prospects of many people who currently specific? have no savings to call on. The state pension age was set at 65 for men and Mr. Hands: Saying that we will review the provisions women in 1925 and was reduced to 60 for women in shows a clear intention. We have also talked about 1940. As hon. Members have said, the only change since dates, whereas the hon. Gentleman has not mentioned then has been through the Pensions Act 1995, which any ages or dates. It is not on for him to criticise the legislated to equalise the state pension age in phases Conservative party for not being clear on this matter starting from this year, with the pension age for women when he has provided nothing on Liberal Democrat rising to 65 by 2020. That gave a 15-year warning that policy. He has merely suggested that he disagrees with equalisation would take place. One reason for that the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead, whose legislation was to ensure an equalisation of benefits, position is clear, without proffering any alternative. which is required under European law. 43WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 44WH

[Angela Eagle] time to plan for their retirement so that they know exactly when they will be due to retire. It is hard to In the shadow Chancellor’s speech at the age of imagine that the EU Commission would be happy to be austerity conference—if I may call it that—he announced suddenly confronted with a new non-equal pension age dramatically that he would be straight with the British that was clearly against European law and that had people and that he would put on record exactly how he been promulgated on a whim at a Conservative party would pay for the desirable aim of re-linking the basic conference in an age of austerity speech. I suggest that state pension to earnings. It is nice when a sinner the hon. Member for Hammersmith and Fulham gets repenteth, as it was the Conservatives who broke the his party’s lawyers to take a much closer look at what link 30 years ago. He announced dramatically that, in seems to be the mess of Conservative policy on the this age of austerity, he would bring forward the increase retirement age. in the state pension age to 2016—he did not mention One thing is absolutely clear: Conservative policy is the gender of those who would be due to retire and nor in a terrible muddle. Even if it were not, it would did he speak of a review—and he then announced the certainly cost all men who would have to work a year amount of money that would be saved, as the hon. longer and were six years away from retirement in 2010 Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) said. an extra £8,000 a year in forgone pension. In addition, In that age of austerity speech, the shadow Chancellor if the policy could be put in place in the way in which implied strongly that the two things would happen at the Conservatives intend, which I doubt would happen, the same time and that one would pay for the other. He it would cost women who were due to retire in 2020 at cited that as an example of a Conservative Government- least £5,000, and perhaps an average of £15,000. in-waiting who would take tough choices, and set out that they would give a little bit with one hand and pay The Conservatives need to have a closer look at what for it by taking a little bit away with the other. It was on earth they are doing. Clearly, however, people in only when he was questioned following the speech that their 50s who are looking forward to retirement will the policy began to unravel and look slightly messy. The know that, should there be a Conservative Government, Conservatives had clearly forgotten that the women’s they would certainly lose out as their retirement age pension age was due to rise to 65 over the next 10 years would be changed in a fast and arbitrary way. I agree under legislation passed by the previous Conservative with the hon. Member for Northavon that making such Government so that it would be equalised with that of sudden changes to the retirement age in a short space of men by 2020. time would be less than helpful. Such a policy would not allow the people who were caught up by the changes Moving on to the implications of the shadow to plan for them appropriately, and would create uncertainty Chancellor’s dramatic announcement on state pension about the retirement age in the future. age at the age of austerity conference, it appeared that the policy could cost men who are now six years away from retirement £8,000 in a year because they would Mr. Hands: The hon. Lady’s argument does not wash. have to work for longer. Women would have to make a Obviously, in a perfect world, we would want notification similar sacrifice and it could cost them up to £15,000. of the state pension age to be given as early as possible, Conservative central office realised that the shadow but we are talking about dates such as 2016 and 2020 at Chancellor might have misspoken, to use a popular the earliest. I contrast that with the Government’s £5 billion term, so the Conservatives then said there would have a year raid on pension funds that was announced with to be a review. The default option, following that bold, absolutely no notification whatsoever. dramatic announcement, was therefore a review, and that was the position to which the hon. Member for Angela Eagle: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) attempted to will have to stop believing his own myths about so-called stick doggedly this morning, even though what would raids on pension funds. After the changes to the tax law happen under that review seems already to have been to which he referred, the balance of profit in pension decided. funds rose substantially over the next three years. It was That review, however, would get us into a messy only when the dotcom bubble burst that pension funds situation and give rise to questions that the hon. Member went into deficit. He needs to consider cause and effect for Northavon and I have sought to bring to the fore. before he pontificates in front of hon. Members. Under European law, the state pension age has to be I was about to agree with the hon. Member for equalised—that is the view of the EU Commission. I Northavon about the sudden changes to retirement know the shadow Chancellor and many of his friends plans that were put before the electorate in the age of on the Conservative Front Bench try not to take much austerity speech made by the shadow Chancellor. Such notice of that institution but, nevertheless, we are signed sudden shifting can make people unsure about what up to the basic rules that it promulgates, one of which is their retirement age will be and whether it will be that there should be equal access to pensions and other arbitrarily changed, and they then get worried about such benefits across the genders. whether it is worth saving in pensions at all. It is Those of us who remember the introduction of winter difficult enough to get people to save into pensions. fuel payments will know that the disparities in the They often think of reasons why they should spend pension age meant that men over 60 took the Government their money now, which is not surprising in a very to court so that they would be allowed to access those consumer-orientated society in which mass advertising payments, even though they were not retired, and they campaigns encourage instant consumption rather than succeeded under European law. Since 1995, the British saving. Those of us in government who wish to encourage Government have said that they will equalise the state saving must fight against that. However, when arbitrary pension age gradually to give people the appropriate changes in the state pension age are announced on a 45WH Raising of the Pension Age9 MARCH 2010 Raising of the Pension Age 46WH whim at a Conservative party conference for dramatic get the new system bedded in, see how it works and effect, it does not give people confidence that things will identify the levels of opt-out before we consider the idea not be changed again. of compulsion again. We must make it as easy as possible for people to save. We must encourage and John Mason: I intervene on the Minister to raise the reward them for doing so, particularly when they have same point that she made when she intervened on me. medium or lower earnings. She used the word “encourage”. Will the Government The hon. Member for Hammersmith and Fulham totally rule out going beyond encouragement and to a also talked about pensions apartheid, which I thought degree of compulsion? was very telling. He said that 85 per cent. of people in the public sector have access to an extra workplace Angela Eagle: We are in the middle of putting into pension when the proportion in the private sector has effect the biggest landmark pension changes for probably gone down because of employers’ lack of willingness to 60 or 70 years, which involve automatic enrolment. offer extra pension saving. What he did not say when he That is the nearest step short of creating a compulsion used those alarmist words and talked darkly about to save, in that it tries to work with the idea of inertia to another review—he would not say this before an election—is encourage people to save. In other words, people will that that review will no doubt consider what his party have to opt out of automatic enrolment if they are could do to destroy public sector pension provision. active in the workplace. The most sensible approach is I suggest that everyone who works in the public to put the Pensions Commission’s proposal in place, sector takes close account of what the hon. Gentleman establish a national employment savings trust, and have has been saying about their pensions. He did not mention automatic enrolment. that the average public sector pension payment is between The hon. Gentleman will know that there will be £4,000 and £5,000. We are talking about part-time re-enrolment every three years. We have to see how that women workers, porters, cleaners, people who work in works. We always have to keep these things under schools and those who do not have huge earnings. It has review, but we have not yet seen this landmark pension always struck me as odd to say that we should try to reform working, so it is far too early to consider what make pension savings in the private sector by destroying levels of opt-out there might be, how we can encourage pensions in the public sector. people to stay in the scheme and to value pension saving I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton on top of the basic state pension, and how to remind and Wanstead on securing the debate. The Government’s people that they might be living 20 or 30 years after view is that the increases in the state retirement age that their retirement ages, even following the rise in retirement have been legislated for are appropriate at the moment. age that we are discussing thanks to the debate initiated The state retirement age has to be kept under review, by my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead. but clearly we do not wish to make sudden and dramatic We must keep such matters under review. changes that will destabilise people’s confidence and Part of the difficulty with pensions policy is that it is mean that they will approach retirement age only to very long term but, in our Parliament, we love to do have that arbitrarily shifted away from them with minimum new things and to change and switch about. We have to notice—we will not do that. 47WH 9 MARCH 2010 Tankers (Lyme Bay) 48WH

Tankers (Lyme Bay) that nothing seemed to be happening and wrote to the Department to ask what could be done. I pay tribute to the Minister for the polite and relatively timely response, 12.30 pm which I guess was as good as one could expect to Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): The debate is receive. To paraphrase—the Minister may wish to qualify about a matter of unashamed local concern rather than my account—the letter essentially stated, “Yes, this is major national concern, although it affects not only my happening and we accept that there is an issue, but constituents in West Dorset, but those of other hon. unfortunately it is not unlawful in any way for those Members in nearby constituencies—one such Member giant objects with large amounts of toxic material in is seeking to enter the debate and will do so when she them to park there more or less indefinitely. We are very chooses. The extraordinary and simple fact is that several sorry, but although we love you dearly there is nothing tankers are currently parked, to use a colloquial term, we can do for you.” That is broadly what the letter off Lyme bay. That is not a matter of dispute between stated. anyone and anyone else, but simply a matter of plain fact. Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): My second statement is equally uncontroversial, although I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the it is certainly a statement of values, if not one of fact. debate and for representing that wonderful coastline. I, Lyme bay is one of the most beautiful places in the too, have received one of those bland letters in response world. I do not say that unadvisedly, because it is a to inquiries about the tankers. Dorset Wildlife Trust’s world heritage site. It has been recognised by UNESCO head office is in my constituency, so I am here representing as one of the most important places in the world, after the views of my constituents. I hope that he will agree considerable efforts by many people involved, including that there obviously has to be a better solution. Rather myself. That was not because of its natural beauty, than taking risks, the vehicles should not be parked in which is wholly outstanding, but its extraordinary geological the bay at all, but perhaps somewhere at Portland. If it significance, as it is the part of the world most responsible is not a question of being able to apply the law, surely for the evolution of modern theories of evolution. It is some common sense and negotiations could be used. the place where the significance of fossils was first understood, and it still yields the most astonishing Mr. Letwin: I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and a variety of evidence about the planet’s very ancient little envious that the headquarters of the Dorset Wildlife history. Trust is in her constituency. I must make a mental note When one considers the bay’s astonishing beauty, to encourage that admirable organisation to move to combined with its great scientific importance, one might my constituency. I accept entirely that she and I are conclude that our laws and administrative systems should actuated by the same concern to advance the ecological protect it. After all, as a country we have over a long interests of Dorset as a whole, Bournemouth and Poole time developed a whole array of protections for important and a large part of Devon, as we are talking about a sites. We have areas of outstanding natural beauty and pretty widespread area. If the Minister’s letter was in rules about what can and cannot be done in them, sites good faith and accurate, which I am sure it was, and if of special scientific interest and rules about what one he will tell us today that he has no powers to do can and cannot do in them, and we have areas that are anything about the matter, then I agree with the hon. preserved in one way or another and rules about what Lady that what is required is the taking of powers to do one can and cannot do in them. something about the situation, or some administrative action that would make it unnecessary to have those The House has just gone to the trouble, with considerable powers by achieving a result. That is exactly the burden cross-party consensus, of passing a Bill to protect the of my tale. marine environment, for which I and others campaigned for many years, and it is highly relevant to Lyme bay. I I am not an administrative lawyer, so I do not know congratulate the Minister and others on the new Marine whether the Minister has powers to deal with the problem, and Coastal Access Act 2009, which my party supported, but I take it at face value that he does not. I do know, as did Liberal Democrat Members. The Act was created however, that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever largely to preserve and enhance the marine environment— for the UK to have a huge array of environmental and and quite rightly, too. Considerable powers have been ecological legislation and yet be unable to stop large given to various bodies to ensure that the marine objects containing large amounts of highly toxic material environment is as well protected as the land-based parking in an area where, in bad weather conditions, for environment has been by a succession of legislation and instance, there might be a catastrophe and a spillage—we administrative action over the past 50 years. hope that that will not happen—the ecological significance of which would be colossal. Clearly, we must be able to Given all that, the average punter or MP might be stop that. It makes no sense for a UK Minister to be forgiven for thinking that there would naturally be some unable to stop that happening. method for ensuring that the biggest ecological risks were minimised in the most important sites. Therefore, I was therefore surprised and disappointed to discover when the tankers arrived off the coast of Lyme bay and not that the Minister did not have the powers, though various local groups began to agitate about the matter—I such things can happen, nor that he is concerned, which pay particular tribute to the wildlife groups that brought is a fine thing, but that there was no sense of urgency it to everyone’s attention—it seemed natural to me that about doing something about the situation. We need a Ministers, whom I have mentioned in relation to the sense of urgency; something needs to be done. 2009 Act, would be concerned about it, would have an If you, Mr. Bayley, and I were both in the next array of powers at their disposal to combat those ecological Parliament, as I hope I shall be—[Interruption.] Isay risks and would take action. After several days I discovered that only to avoid any suggestion that I am talking 49WH Tankers (Lyme Bay)9 MARCH 2010 Tankers (Lyme Bay) 50WH down the Conservative party. If we were to find ourselves Let me make it clear that the Government, particularly again in this Chamber discussing this subject, but what the Department for Transport, seriously take on board we were discussing in those circumstances was an ecological the issues that the right hon. Member for West Dorset catastrophe as a result of the very thing that I am has raised, and that if there were no provisions and no talking about—a weather condition leading to a spillage monitoring of the situation, I would concur that action disaster—it would be impossible for whoever would needed to be taken immediately. However, it is worth then be the Minister to explain why action had not been laying out clearly the provisions within UK legislation taken to prevent it when so clearly it was possible to and international conventions that apply to shipping, envisage that it might happen. which, obviously, is an international business. Let me, Thinking oneself into that position, I do not see how without disagreeing with the right hon. Gentleman, set a Minister could possibly stand up in good faith at that out the situation. stage and say, “We were warned, we knew that this Yesterday morning, eight oil tankers were anchored could happen, we watched the ships sit there but didn’t in Lyme bay. In addition, two general cargo ships and a do anything about it, they did spill, and now we’re very tug were at anchor. Just to help the right hon. Gentleman, sorry.” That would be an impossible position to be in. he might find that the terminology is “at anchor” rather The Minister would have to say, “This is a catastrophe. than “parked”. At any time, there are vessels in Lyme I’m off.” The time to take action is now, before anything bay which are under way—they are moving about, and happens, and I do not see any reason to delay. The time departing. to start taking action is today; in fact, the time to take The right hon. Gentleman and others will know that action was some weeks back when the matter first came Lyme bay is a body of water close to the English to light. channel, which is one of the biggest and most heavily The last thing I want to say is that I shall not in any used shipping seaways in the world. It is an accepted way try to engage in the naive action of specifying from fact that ships take advantage of the sheltered waters at the outside what the Minister needs to do. I am perfectly Lyme bay in anticipation of, for example, bad weather, aware that he has what I do not: a Department full of and that they wait at the designated western end of the people who are expert about these matters, who are bay for the embarkation and disembarkation of deep intelligent, who are knowledgeable about the kind of sea pilots. It is also normal for vessels to wait there for administrative action that could be taken, and who, I instructions from their owners or operators to go elsewhere. hope and believe, know the actors involved. I am not in I understand that many of the tankers that were waiting that position; I am just trying to represent my constituents. there yesterday were doing just that: waiting for instructions I am making a point that seems to be irrefutable: we to move on. ought not to be bearing this risk. If the Government Why are ships allowed to do that in part of the UK’s were properly in control of the ecological agenda, they territorial sea, and why can they stay there for longer would deal with it, and I am asking the Minister to than just days? It is true and absolutely right, in terms deal with it. Whether he deals with it by negotiating of merchant shipping operations and so on, that there positions—by going out there and trying to use the are no valid grounds for making ships go away if they considerable leverage of the UK Government to persuade are not acting unlawfully or demonstrably posing a the owners of the tankers to do something different threat to the UK’s seas and coasts. with them—as the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) suggested, whether he Mr. Letwin: Will the Minister give way? discovers some recess of the law that allows him to Paul Clark: Before the right hon. Gentleman jumps engage in further regulation that would give him powers to his feet, I will deal with the threat issue. that he could use as leverage or directly impose, or whether he needs to engage in legislation, whatever it is There are a couple of points that I would make about that he needs to do, he needs to do it; and it is him, not Lyme bay. First, there are designated anchorages within me, who needs to decide what it is. My point is simply the limits of Tor Bay harbour that are controlled by the that it needs to be done. harbour authority. They are primarily used by ships waiting to enter the harbour. Yesterday morning, there 12.43 pm were three such vessels: two cargo ships and a tug. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Secondly, outside the Tor Bay Harbour Authority limits, (Paul Clark): It is a privilege to serve under your there is a deep-draught anchorage that is used for chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Bayley. I congratulate shelter, and for ships waiting for deep sea pilots. The the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) on situation in Lyme bay in areas other than those is that, securing this important debate. He said at the beginning subject to good seamanship and provided that ships of his speech that the matter does not affect everyone keep clear of obstructions, wrecks, cables, pipelines but that it is important. I concur with that 100 per cent. and, of course, each other, there are no statutory restrictions It is obviously important to his constituents and others on anchoring, nor are there any statutory restrictions who are affected in such a way, but it is also important on the number of ships that can be in an area at any to the United Kingdom as a whole. Indeed, several one time. other right hon. and hon. Members, including the right However, I would not want this House to believe that hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), my there are no safeguards or protection for the UK’s seas right hon. Friend the Minister for Employment and and coasts. I want to set this in context. We must Welfare Reform, and the Lord Commissioner of Her remember that from a long way back in our history—I Majesty’s Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for shall not necessarily go back to Jurassic times—we have Waveney (Mr. Blizzard), have raised this issue and been a maritime nation. Therefore, we have to work others about shipping within the area of their own within a recognition that the importance to us of maritime constituency. industry and shipping is second to none. 51WH Tankers (Lyme Bay)9 MARCH 2010 Tankers (Lyme Bay) 52WH

Mr. Letwin: Does the Minister accept that what he stronger and better. Various changes have happened to has just said amounts to saying that, as things stand—I MARPOL, including annexe VI, which is to do with am not suggesting that this would occur at any time in sulphur emissions, and so on. All that work goes on. It the near future—if 100 large tankers decided to spend a has invariably to be done at international level, because year stationed outside Lyme bay, he would have no we are talking about an international business. Many of basis on which to prevent them from doing so? the vessels in Lyme bay are not under the UK flag but are under the flags of other states, which is why an Paul Clark: I was coming on to this. International international position is needed. When UK-flagged ships guidance on the proximity of vessels to each other are in other ports, they need to be covered by the same would provide cover in that regard. I will mention the protections as the right hon. Gentleman wants to see at role of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in maintaining Lyme bay. and keeping a close eye on the necessary provisions in respect of ships at anchor for any period, whether for a If the material condition or readiness of a ship causes day, a week, a month, or whatever. I shall also mention concern, the MCA can conduct an inspection, subject some points that are covered by various conventions. to weather conditions and safety, and undertake the Let me put on the record that I recognise the fundamental necessary work. Where anchoring has the potential to ecological importance of the Lyme bay coastline and its interfere with the right of innocent passage and other complex geology. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned freedoms of navigation, the MCA issues navigation old fossils found there that help us understand a great warnings to affected mariners. deal about our development. I recognise that it is a We need to put this matter in context. At any time world heritage site: it is commonly known as the Jurassic some 1,400 vessels can be within 30 miles of the UK coast because of the rich finds that he mentioned. The coast, most of which are under way, but some are at last thing that any Government, including this Government, anchor. Yesterday, in addition to the vessels at anchor in would want is to put that area at serious threat. Therefore, Lyme bay, a number of vessels were under way, moving I will run through some of the protections that exist in to and from the bay. They are all monitored under the respect of our coast, particularly Lyme bay. UK’s vessel traffic monitoring regulations. The MCA I have mentioned the role of the MCA, which monitors monitors UK waters using resources that include the the situation around our coastline, including the conduct automatic identification system, commonly known as of ships at anchor, especially in known anchorages—and AIS, routine surveillance and communication systems Lyme bay is one such area. If the weather or the to allow us to monitor not only shipping movement, but condition or conduct of the ships give cause for concern, ships at anchor, which are a cause for concern for the there are procedures in place under which the MCA right hon. Gentleman. takes advisory and warning action. The Government have a highly developed strategic approach to protecting the UK’s seas and coasts from Mr. Letwin: Does the Minister accept that the MCA’s pollution from ships. I shall list the elements of that supervision of Lyme bay, although no doubt welcome, approach, because they are important in understanding, was already in place in the not-too-distant past when a as I said earlier, that there is not just one approach and minor disaster happened involving a cargo vessel, not a it is not about using one organisation: there is a multifaceted tanker? He will be fully aware of that. Does he accept approach. A number of provisions are in place, including therefore that it must be the case the MCA cannot be the following. There is a network of shore-based stations wholly relied on to prevent all disasters? If a tanker was around the UK coastline to monitor vessel traffic using involved, the disaster would be on a different scale from AIS. We have achieved agreement in the forum of the those that we have so far witnessed. International Maritime Organisation on ships’ routeing Paul Clark: As I was saying, it is not just one process measures, which will reduce the risk of groundings and that is relied on to ensure that the protection and collisions. We are ensuring that powerful tug boats are procedures that are needed are in place: there tends to available to go out and assist ships, particularly those be a multilayered or multifaceted process. The MCA is that can no longer manoeuvre under their own power. an important part of that process. I accept that there We have established arrangements under which a ship can be times when things will not go as planned—that is that requires assistance and whose condition needs to so in any walk of life and in any aspect that we look be stabilised can be brought into a place of refuge. We at—but it is worth noting, equally, that, as part of the also have a highly effective structure for command and international safety management code, shipping companies control of an accident and incident, were it to happen, provide guidance to masters on how close vessels should in which the Secretary of State’s representative for be to each other. That relates to the numbers that could maritime salvage and intervention plays a major role. be in any given space, which the right hon. Gentleman We have fully developed the national contingency plan mentioned in his earlier intervention. for marine pollution from shipping and offshore Anchored vessels must be maintained in a fully installations, which ensures the UK’s preparedness and operational state. They cannot be left in a state in which response to a marine pollution incident, if it should they are not able to move on immediately and they must happen. We participate actively in international assistance comply with internationally agreed safety and pollution and co-operation arrangements of a bipartite, multipartite prevention standards under the international convention or regional nature, which, again, is consistent with the for the safety of life at sea, commonly known as SOLAS, oil pollution preparedness response and co-operation and the international convention for the prevention of convention. pollution from ships, commonly known as MARPOL. I would not want right hon. and hon. Members to Work has been going on, through the international believe that there is not a monitoring process to ensure forums and the International Maritime Organisation, that the rules are properly followed so that ships are not to strengthen those processes and ensure that they get threatening the ecological base of, or the safety of other 53WH Tankers (Lyme Bay) 9 MARCH 2010 54WH vessels using, the facility in Lyme bay. The provisions 2012 Olympics (Employment) that we have made in legislation in respect of looking after the environmental aspects of maritime matters provide other options for consideration as they roll out. 12.59 pm The key thing as far as the Government are concerned is Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke ensuring that we have a safe, effective, efficient merchant Newington) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to shipping industry, as a maritime nation, and protecting introduce a debate on a matter that is important to me, major heritage sites such as Lyme bay. my constituents and everyone in the east end of London: the level of local employment at the Olympic park. This year—2010—is crucial for construction at the park. It is already the biggest construction site in Europe, with 9,000 workers employed there. Building work is set to accelerate this year, and the work force will grow to 11,000. The Olympic Delivery Authority estimates that 30,000 workers will have worked at the Olympic park alone between 2005 and 2012. Hon. Members will realise that while we are still coming out of the credit crunch, that windfall of jobs represents a tremendous opportunity for the adjoining boroughs in the east of London and the country as a whole. Unemployment in Hackney means that we have a particular focus on the issue, and I have raised it consistently for more than two years. I raised it over and again with the then Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, and I secured an Adjournment debate on it two years ago. In private and public meetings, I have stressed the importance of ensuring that my constituents and the people of the east end generally are given a fair proportion of the thousands of skilled jobs that will become and are becoming available at the Olympic park. Hon. Members will be interested to hear that I visited the site in Stratford this morning and met, among others, Lorraine Martin, the ODA’s head of employment skills, equality and inclusion. The burden of my comments will be about employment, but I was impressed by the progress being made at the Olympic park and to see the buildings taking shape. I have no doubt that 2012 will be a wonderful and spectacular event for Londoners. However, I am obliged to look beyond what happens at the Olympics and to consider the long-term effects for my constituents. Having met top people at the ODA this morning, I am reasonably confident that the figures that I will set out are correct. The Olympics are of national significance—they are a national event. They are hugely important to everyone throughout the country, and everyone should look for economic regeneration effects from them. However, Londoners in particular are contributing to the Olympics, and we were sold the idea of hosting them on the understanding that as well as being an amazing, historic sporting event, they would provide the opportunity for regeneration in a part of London that has historically not had the jobs and investment of west London and the outer boroughs. The 2012 games represent the single biggest opportunity in recent history to enable us to realise the long dreamt of regeneration of the east end. I hope that no one doubts that the area is in need. Hackney is one of the most deprived boroughs in the country. Unemployment rates are higher than the UK average, and in the wards closest to the Olympic site, claims for jobseeker’s allowance are nearly twice the London average. Hackney and the Olympic boroughs are young boroughs, and youth employment is a problem in all of them. It is high in Hackney, where the percentage of young people not in education, employment or training—NEETs—is about 10 per cent. The latest figures 55WH 2012 Olympics (Employment)9 MARCH 2010 2012 Olympics (Employment) 56WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] It is not acceptable that we lack a proper breakdown of the people working at the Olympic village by gender, show that 2,145 people aged 16 to 24 are claiming race and locality, because for most people—and certainly jobseeker’s allowance in Hackney, and I emphasise that for my tour guide this morning—it is an integral part of Hackney’s recorded figures for unemployment, particularly the Olympic park. I urge the Minister to ensure that, in youth unemployment, do not capture the large number future, employment figures for the Olympics take account of young people who do not engage with the authorities. of not just the park, but the village. Given the economic context, the problems in the Apart from the unfathomable exclusion of information economy overall, and the need in the adjoining boroughs about people working on the housing, I also want to for jobs and regeneration, it is important that the Olympics raise the definition of a local resident. The ODA defines leave the east of London and its people genuinely a local resident as someone who declares a permanent regenerated. Perhaps the most important way of doing address that is in one of the five host boroughs. However, so, apart from through infrastructure improvements, is the authority does not require the worker to have lived by boosting local employment, which in turn will boost in that borough for a minimum period of time before the local economy, local housing and local morale, and they can be classed as a resident. Pathetic though the deal with the underlying causes of crime, and the gang figures for Hackney employees on the Olympic park and knife culture that we have so often discussed in this are, as I have said, many local people believe that they Chamber. overstate the position because they include workers living in houses of multiple occupation who moved to The Minister will be aware of the latest figures, but I Hackney specifically to work on the park. will set them out. The recent ODA figures reveal that Another issue surrounding employment on the Olympic 6,277 people are working at the Olympic park, of whom park cuts across some of the processes and aims that 20 per cent.—some 1,230—are registered as living in the ODA has told me about for more than two years. As one of the five Olympic boroughs. Already, 20 per cent. contractors moved on to the park but building work on is on the low side, but the breakdown of the figures will their other sites across London slowed, finished or was show the Minister why I am so alarmed. Seven per halted because of the credit crunch, those contractors cent., or 439 workers, are registered at an address in simply switched their work forces to the Olympic park. Newham, while just 4 per cent., or 250, are registered in Therefore, the number of jobs that are vacant on the Greenwich and Waltham Forest. Only 3 per cent., or Olympic park is much smaller than the overall employment 188 workers, are from Tower Hamlets, and 2 per cent. of figures would suggest. Even at this late stage, I would local workers at the Olympic park are from Hackney—just like Ministers to put more pressure on construction and 2 per cent., or 126. fitting-out companies to fill a specific quota of jobs Hackney—the constituency that I am privileged to from the local area. represent—has the lowest number of workers employed Over the past year, the work on the Olympic park has at the Olympic site. It has half the number from Greenwich changed from earth moving and large-scale construction and Waltham Forest, and more than three times fewer to a fitting-out stage requiring the employment of builders, than Newham. Hackney has consistently had the lowest carpenters, plasters, electricians and other skilled tradesmen. number of workers at the site since I first engaged with It is simply not correct to say that those tradesman are the issue, yet Hackney houses part of the Olympic park. not available in the east end of London, and it would be One third of it falls within our boundaries, and local appropriate to have more focus on filling the jobs residents have made sacrifices to make the Olympics associated with the fitting-out stage with people drawn happen. Houses have been demolished, businesses have from the east end. been uprooted, and communities have had to put up The ODA’s definition of a worker is somebody who with the noise and disturbance of building work. Although spends at least five days working on the Olympic park. people have sometimes put up a fight, the general That means that a number of the workers counted in consensus in Hackney is that the Olympics will be the figures, including some of those from Hackney, worth the sacrifice in the long run, not just because they might include people who have moved on and no longer will be a spectacular event, but because of the long-term work on the site. Although it is commendable that the benefits for the area. ODA has produced some figures, we have reached a If we drill down into the statistics, they become even point at which those figures create more confusion than more depressing. The park is situated just a few miles light. The authority needs to go back and look at some from the City of London and in an area with a high of its record keeping so that we can have transparency number of working-age people, so we should be pushing about the issues that concern me and my constituents. more, given that the opportunity is on the doorstep of I want to touch on issues relating to women and the east end. The employment figures quoted by the ethnic minorities. Although the ODA’s benchmark is to ODA are widely circulated, but they take into account have 11 per cent. of women in the work force, it has only the workers at the Olympic park. When one tours achieved a figure of only 6 per cent. Years ago, when I the park, as I did this morning, one is shown the worked for the Greater London council, we showed the Olympic village as a matter of course, but there are no way in proving that there were ways in which women figures for the number of local people working at the could be brought into traditionally male jobs such as Olympic village, although 2,887 people are working carpentry or building. I do not think that the ODA is there—nearly half the number working on the park making enough effort in that regard. proper. There are no statistics showing where they come I consulted my constituents before working on this from or their race and ethnicity. It is as if we are speech, and a number expressed concern that there had supposed to believe that the 2,887 people working at the not been a sufficiently large push for female employment. Olympic village come from nowhere. Some suggested that the ODA should hold women-only 57WH 2012 Olympics (Employment)9 MARCH 2010 2012 Olympics (Employment) 58WH recruitment days, which to my knowledge has not been I have been fortunate over the past week to attend tried. Others suggested a particular push on training events with young Hackney people. I attended the annual women to do traditionally male jobs. A number of award ceremony at Hackney community college, which people suggested having better child care on the site, had a theme based around the values of the Olympics. and another suggestion, which I hope that Ministers The young people receiving the awards that night embodied would welcome, was to have an equal pay audit on the those principles of determination, integrity and friendship. site to examine the pay differentials between men and However, I was surprised when the principal of the women. I have mentioned several of the targets set by college voiced concerns about having to make cuts in the ODA mainly to show that it does not meet some of his construction course. On the one hand, the ODA tells its own targets, and the number of female employees is me that people in the east end of London do not have one example of that. None the less, I feel that the targets the skills, while on the other hand, local colleges are lack ambition, for example the ODA’s target on employing being forced to cut proper construction courses. It is as local workers of only 15 per cent. if one hand does not know what the other is doing I will move on to another important issue. Overall, about regeneration and employment on the Olympic the figures for the number of local people employed on park. the Olympic park are poor and disappointing, and the I also met three female graduates of the construction low proportion of local young people who have found program this week. Kelly Drake, Alannah Bascombe positions as apprentices on the Olympic site is a scandal. and Janine Griffiths are among the 9,000 working on When it comes to skilled workers, it could be argued the site. They are waving the banner not only for Hackney, that there might be a skills gap in some of the Olympic but for female workers. Much more needs to be done if boroughs. There has been a lot of talk and action on other students are to follow in their footsteps. training, but when it comes to apprenticeships, the skills gap argument does not apply. Youngpeople are brought I have also met half a dozen young Olympic legacy in and trained, and the figures that I have seen on the champions from Hackney community college and BSix number of proper construction apprenticeships on the college in Stoke Newington. Those students are picked Olympic site show that, overall, 37 per cent. of apprentices from nine colleges in the five Olympic boroughs. They on the Olympic site come from the Olympic boroughs. put themselves forward as candidates and they are However, when it comes to Hackney, there is a handful tasked with promoting the Olympics among young of young people, and I do not think that that is acceptable. people. What issue did they raise with me? Jobs. Even It is unacceptable to argue that there should be the same though they are the so-called legacy champions, they, proportion of apprenticeships as of people doing fully- too, did not understand how they would benefit in skilled jobs, because it is so much easier to recruit practical ways, such as through jobs. apprentices locally than skilled men. In Hackney, the I shall briefly set out several issues that my constituents ODA has not even met its target, which is a betrayal of raised when I asked them what I should say in this the young people of the east end. debate—perhaps the Minister can write to me about I understand that there are currently 150 apprentices them. First, they are very concerned about the need working on the site. The target was supposed to be 350, for affordable housing in the east end, so they want but it seems unlikely that the ODA will meet it because to know whether Olympic village property will be it takes three years to train a construction apprentice available for first-time buyers. Secondly, how many and there are only 18 to 20 months of building work left local market traders—this is a big issue in Hackney—will on the site. Popular media sources point out that each be trained up and supported to populate the section of apprentice on the Olympic site has cost the taxpayer the park designed for local suppliers of goods? millions of pounds. If we are going to invest that much Thirdly, how soon after the Olympics are over will the money in apprentices, why do we not target some of the park be made available to the public? Additionally, my most deprived young people in the country—those of constituents are concerned about increased surveillance the east end and the Olympic boroughs? Some suggest in the park. that the problem is that young people are not interested in construction, but wherever I go in Hackney, young Even 18 months before the construction phase closes, people ask about the possibility of finding jobs on the there are practical things that the Government can do Olympic park. so that my young people, in particular, can access the apprenticeships that they deserve and so that my skilled My constituent, Geoff Joab, lives one mile away from men can have some hope of getting the jobs that they the Olympic park in Stoke Newington. He has all the are trained for and anxious to do. We need to set targets necessary construction skills needed for a job on the for the contractors on a minimum quota of local people park, and one would expect him to be able to get work. and to consider whether more money is needed, perhaps He is now in his fourth month of unemployment, through a training levy. despite having signed up for job brokerage nearly two years ago. After calling and calling On Site, his brokerage We need to improve and upgrade the statistics that service, and being told that there was no job for him, he the ODA is producing, including on job brokerages found that it had lost his file and he has had to start putting people into jobs on the Olympic site. When I over again. My constituents come to me with such visited my local job brokerage, I was told, after a bit of experiences time after time. I regard what is being humming and hawing, that the figures were for the total done—albeit often by very nice people—by the brokerage number of people it was putting into jobs, not just those companies in terms of outturn with some scepticism. on the Olympic site, so the figures are lower than they As I said earlier, the problem lies partly with those might seem. The ODA needs to look at how it ascertains construction companies that move established sub- whether people are truly local—perhaps by asking where contractors to the Olympic site rather than employing people went to school—and it should have more challenging new staff. targets. 59WH 2012 Olympics (Employment)9 MARCH 2010 2012 Olympics (Employment) 60WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] as does every person who visits the park, but the second aspect is the soft legacy, which will enable us to look I have been raising this subject in private and in back after the Olympics and say, “Hosting the Olympic public, and on the Floor of the House and in Committee and Paralympic games changed the economy of those Rooms, for two years. I have raised it with such persistence five boroughs and the opportunities available to the because I believe that this sort of opportunity will not people who live there.” My hon. Friend is absolutely come again. The low number of Hackney people on the right that there is a degree of sacrifice for local people Olympic site is a scandal, and it is not even commensurate living in the five boroughs, and we owe it to them to with any supposed skills gap among Hackney people. ensure that their upheaval is worth while. In particular, there is the issue of the handful of Hackney’s It is in the DNA of the ODA to make sure that young people who have managed to get apprenticeships. employment opportunities and local employment are Apprenticeships can mean a great deal for precisely the maximised, while being highly purposeful in ensuring type of young people who I met at Hackney community that contracts go to the whole country. As has been college and BSix college. evidenced, apprentices have been recruited—three and The low levels of local employment and the pathetically a half times the industry average—and most will complete low levels of Hackney people with apprenticeships mean their training by 2012. that, even with all the other issues that the Minister has There will also be a legacy of training. The skills to consider on the Olympics, we must once again focus academy—it was called the digger school—which has on employment. When the Olympics are over, and the now relocated to Beckton, will continue to train apprentices circus, noise, glamour and international attention has after the Olympics, thus ensuring that the face of the passed by, we need to ensure that local people can see construction industry begins to change. My hon. Friend that they have gained something and are not being left and I are absolutely as one that the future face of the to slide back into hopelessness and unemployment. construction industry should be more female. The ODA’s overriding responsibility is to deliver the 1.23 pm games on time and on budget. Much of the work force, as my hon. Friend rightly said, is brought in by contractors The Minister for the Olympics (Tessa Jowell): I from other parts of the country that are equally affected congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, by the impact of the economic downturn. Across the North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on securing country, the Olympics are either creating or maintaining the debate. Like other Members who represent the five levels of employment, but that is the tension. We have a Olympic boroughs, she has been a passionate champion construction project, but given the level of public investment of the people whom she represents and, particularly, of and the commitment of the Government, the five boroughs opportunities to improve the employment prospects of and Members of Parliament, it also has an important young people. employment objective. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend and I would My hon. Friend referred to the targets. I would resile like to say two or three things in the short time available. from setting targets and prefer to rely on the ambitious She should not for one moment doubt the commitment benchmarks that the ODA has already set for local and determination of the ODA, the Government Olympic employment, the number of apprenticeships and the Executive, this Minister and all those associated with employment of women and disabled people. She made the development of the great Olympic project that the specific points about the profile of the 2,700 people young people whom she represents, and about whom working on the Olympic village. I see no reason why she is so concerned, should have prospects for a better those figures cannot be published, so I undertake to future, long-term employment and skilled jobs as a ensure that they are. result of the Olympics. That is important in the context The job brokerage service that is run by the five of 40 per cent. of the working-age population of the boroughs gives greatest priority to unemployed people five boroughs being unemployed, and of 25 per cent. of living locally, and that is the means by which some the population of the host borough having no educational 750 people have found work in the park. The process is qualifications at all. It was precisely because of that a combination of feeding the demand for labour arising level of deprivation that it was decided that, if we won from the construction of the park and changing the the right to hold the Olympics, we would host them east nature of labour supply through our investment in London to secure two legacy ambitions: first, a general apprenticeships and skills. I am encouraged by the ambition about sport and young people; and, secondly, proactive outreach initiatives adopted by the ODA, and the very specific ambition for the regeneration of east I think that they will begin to change the number of London. apprentices over the next six months and give my hon. The regeneration involves both a hard and a soft Friend a better story to tell the young people whom she legacy. My hon. Friend saw the hard legacy this morning, represents. 61WH 9 MARCH 2010 Passenger Safety (Railway 62WH Platforms) Passenger Safety (Railway Platforms) watch the train arrive and leave the station, even telling members of the jury to stand back as the train approached and left. 1.30 pm Since Simon’s death, his parents have tried in a remarkable Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford way to uncover how the accident came to happen in the Green) (Con): I am enormously pleased to have been light of health and safety rail standards. Above all, they here for the last bit of the previous debate, because mine have campaigned in a remarkable way for a change in is one of the boroughs concerned. I congratulate the the rules governing the activities of train dispatchers hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington and for regular risk assessments to prevent such accidents (Ms Abbott) on having secured the debate and I was from happening again. To that end, the coroner in the keen to hear the Minister’s response. I hope that the original case agreed with them when he recommended Minister will let us have all the pages of her response in 2008 that the rule book should be changed to reflect that she was not able to get to, because I would love to such concerns and failures. In a letter to the Rail Safety see them. and Standards Board, he stated fairly clearly: I am also enormously pleased to be here to raise yet “It would seem to me that the training of train dispatchers again the tragic death of my constituent Simon Slade. I should still stress the need to observe all trains until they have say that because it is not often that we have an opportunity completely cleared the station, and that this tragic accident could to raise such an issue again. The issue was brought be cited in the training course to emphasise how important this forward by his parents, Jean and George Slade, who might be.” have been trying for some time to obtain some form However, in a rather complacent response, the rail of redress. The Minister who will respond to the debate accident investigation branch stated—this is really just is not the same Minister who responded before, so let a statement of the facts—that the train dispatcher is not me say from the outset that there should be no doubt required to watch trains leave the station. The RAIB about the fact that they are not seeking a financial does not believe that the dispatcher had any particular settlement for themselves. Through their good efforts, responsibility for the people on the platform that evening, they are seeking a way to ensure that such a tragedy is despite the fact that the dispatcher subsequently behaved not, or at least has far less chance of being, visited on with great care, as I said, when the coroner and inquest anybody else. jury were on the platform. Clearly, the dispatcher had some sense that they needed to behave in a particular The Minister will have had the opportunity to read way, even if it was not at the time of the dreadful the previous debate and he will be wondering what accident. points we may be trying to raise this time around. However, it is worth looking at his predecessor’s response, I remind hon. Members that as a result of the train because Simon’s parents have been stalled far too often dispatcher’s not being required to watch the train leave since the previous debate in their discussions and in the station, Simon lay on the track for a further 50 minutes their attempts to change the rules for train dispatch and and a further three trains went through the station risk assessments. It is important that we bear that in before he was eventually found. Had the dispatcher mind. spent even an extra minute in between trains walking Let me quickly remind hon. Members why I am here. along, or revisiting, the platform, he would most likely Simon died just before midnight on 11 January 2007, have heard Simon groaning, sadly, from the tracks. It is after he fell between the platform at Gidea Park station impossible to know for sure, but, who knows, Simon and the outgoing train. Worse, he was then left on the may well have been saved. tracks for a further 50 minutes, during which time a The rule book should therefore be changed so that further three—I stress three—trains came through before train dispatchers are required to watch the train leave he was eventually found. the station. The coroner agreed and said that the RSSB It was made clear during the coroner’s inquiry that, should on the night that Simon died, the train dispatcher at “give consideration to amending the Rule Book Issue 1: Station Gidea Park, having signalled to the driver of the train Duties and Train Dispatch to give additional force to this duty of that he could leave, was so intent on returning to his observing the train throughout its passage through the station.” cabin as quickly as possible that he did not stop to take However, in a subsequent letter to the Slades, the RAIB, cognisance of what was happening to passengers on having started by blaming their son, which is pretty and around the station platform. No matter what anybody ridiculous, stated: says, it is clear from all the evidence—common sense “Bearing in mind that in all the above cases, the behaviour of dictates this—that had he stayed even a little longer and your son was not that which one normally expects, changing the watched the train leave, he would most likely have seen duties of dispatchers or making substantial changes to platform Simon fall. designs, which would involve major costs, is most unlikely to meet the test of reasonable practicability and would go beyond the In the subsequent investigation and inquest, the train duty that train operators owe to their customers.” dispatcher’s actions were excused by the fact—this is the I am not quite sure what the RAIB means when it most ludicrous part of all—that dispatchers are not suggests that Simon’s behaviour obliged to watch trains leave the station. I must say that that was news to me when I came to this case, because I “was not that which one normally expects”. thought that common sense dictated that they were. My As I have said before, we encourage people who have experience with good dispatchers made me believe that had an evening out not to drive, but to use public all dispatchers do that, but they do not, and nor are transport. What exactly is the behaviour that one would they required to do so. It is ironic that when the inquest expect? Simon was running along the platform at one jury and the coroner went to look at Gidea Park stage, and that is not what one would expect. I have seen station, the same train dispatcher took special care to plenty of people run along platforms, and they should 63WH Passenger Safety (Railway 9 MARCH 2010 Passenger Safety (Railway 64WH Platforms) Platforms) [Mr. Iain Duncan Smith] I do not believe that the train dispatcher, in hurrying back to his cabin, can in any way be described as having be told not to. None the less, they do, so the idea that taken reasonable care. He made an omission, and there passengers adhere to a set code of behaviour at all times was a tragic consequence. My concern is about how is ludicrous. That is the whole reason why we need future dispatchers will interpret “reasonable care” in the somebody on the platform to make sure that people absence of clear rules. That is the point: what happens is understand the nature of the danger. chaotic, in a sense, because when I travel by train or It is not true that placing a requirement on train tube I see completely different sets of standards at dispatchers to watch the train leave the station different stations. That is made more of a certainty by the fact that “would go beyond the duty that train operators owe to their customers.” there is still no risk assessment carried out on the danger created by the gap between the train and the In practice—this is the point—train dispatchers often platform. There is only one question in the train dispatch watch trains leave at other stations that I have been to. risk assessment that refers to that gap. The risk assessment The problem is that the behaviour of train dispatchers asks is inconsistent; some take great care of their passengers, while others do not. In the absence of enforceable rules, “are stepping distances suspected to be excessive?” passengers enter a safety lottery at railway stations. That is all. The answer is no in the case of platform 4, There is no way that they can be held to account for any Gidea Park station. Yet the gap is big enough, as was one type of behaviour. demonstrated, for someone to fall between the train and the platform. Clearly, most normal members of the As I am sure the Minister will know, my constituent public would answer that question yes: of course there George Slade is in discussions with the RSSB to put is a problem with that stepping distance. If the gap was together a proposal of change to the traffic operations big enough for Simon to fall into, it must, in my book, management committee. Despite this ridiculous mess, be excessive. I have tested that view out on other members however, the RSSB proposes even now not to change of the public, and their view is much the same. Common the rule book, but to add a statement of best practice, sense, to them, dictates that response, and not some which would fall well short of what my constituent and peculiar set of guidelines that seems to be in the heads I believe is required and leave us pretty much where we of the authorities, which leads those concerned to believe are now. I put it to the Minister that it should not fall to something other than common sense. Mr. Slade to negotiate a change to the rule book with the RSSB; that should really be the remit of the RAIB, The simple device of a risk assessment that was, in which failed to investigate the case in the first place and reality, clear, would have an added advantage. It would which behaved rather shoddily, as was, I think, admitted help dispatchers immediately to recognise the dangerous across the board. state of their stations and to behave with greater care. Some stations are more dangerous than others, and When the debate was announced, Mr. Slade had a they would make that judgment and be more likely to call from Mr. Anson Jack, the chairman of the RSSB. make a point of attending to what happened on the The Department for Transport had, quite legitimately, platform at the time of arrival or departure of a train. asked the RSSB to put together a document covering its There are risk assessments on platforms, lines and train discussions with Mr. Slade, and I am sure that that dispatch, so why is there not a risk assessment on the document is now in the Minister’s hands. I understand gap between trains and platforms? Given that 80 per that the RSSB has advised the Minister that Mr. Slade cent. of passenger accident risk occurs on the platform, is content with the way things are progressing. If so, I according to the figures of the Rail Safety and Standards must tell him in no uncertain terms that that is not the Board, why is no risk assessment carried out on the case, as was made clear to Mr. Anson Jack at the time of danger created by the gap between the platform and the his call. Mr. Slade remains concerned that the RSSB train? In the specific case of Gidea Park, given the size proposes only to add a statement of best practice, of the gap, why were there no warnings and why is there rather than to change the rules on train dispatchers. no signage about the size of the gap? Why does the That is where the dispute arises, and I must say that dispatcher not warn people over a microphone? That common sense would fall on the side of the Slades. does happen—but not at that station. It happens elsewhere. Furthermore, Mr. Slade is not convinced that the Office of Rail Regulation will enforce the statement of best The RSSB’s rule book, issue 2, “Station Duties and practice, because—and here is where things fall down—it Train Dispatch”, states that has said that the rule book is not legislation but an “whenever possible, passengers must be told to stand well back industry standard. We are back to square one. from the platform edge when a nonstopping train is approaching the platform” In the last debate that I had on the matter, the and Minister’s colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), “when a train with slam doors is arriving” made the point that Her Majesty’s railway inspectorate and that had concluded that there was no breach of health and “whenever possible, passengers must be told to stand behind the safety regulations. Yet any cursory look at the Health platform warning line if there is one”. and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 would find that it Given that there is a platform warning line on platform 4 states: at Gidea Park station—it is a bit faded, but it is there—why “It shall be the duty of every employee while at work are not passengers told to stand behind it? If passengers (a) to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself are to be warned about non-stopping trains and trains and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or with slam doors, why cannot they be warned about all omissions at work”. trains? It is utterly illogical. 65WH Passenger Safety (Railway 9 MARCH 2010 Passenger Safety (Railway 66WH Platforms) Platforms) The RAIB, in a letter to the Slades, stated: I have spoken much today of common sense, because “we do not believe that the provision of additional signing of I think that that is what has gone missing in this case. gaps between platforms and trains, or announcements warning of Too often, in the discussions that the Slades have had gaps, would have prevented your son’s accident.” with various departments, the idea of common sense Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they? I find that has been met by those on the other side by what I can statement almost completely incomprehensible. loosely describe in the words used many years ago by, I In the previous debate on this matter, the Minister’s think, Dr. Johnson, as a “confederacy of dunces”, and colleague made the point—I am not quite sure why—that an absolute refusal to recognise that common sense more than 2.1 billion passengers enter and leave trains should change the rules. Instead, the rules dictate how on the Network Rail and London Underground systems, we should define common sense. The organisations and that in 2007 there were eight passenger fatalities concerned should learn the lesson from this tragic accident involving moving trains and station platforms on those and take action now to prevent another like it from two networks. I mention it only because the Minister happening. They should not prevaricate or try to find may be tempted to say that again. I am not quite sure ways to hide behind a set of ludicrous and almost what point the Minister was then making. We know non-existent rules. that railways are safer than the roads. That is the fact and that is why people travel on them. The point is that 1.49 pm if we are seeking to excuse even those eight deaths on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport the basis that somehow one death is acceptable, I do not (Chris Mole): I am grateful to the right hon. Member agree that it is. This debate is not a challenge on safety for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) across the board. It is about recognising that there is a for obtaining the debate. Rail safety is an important clear issue and a problem, which could lead and has led issue for the Government, and the railways are one of to other issues and problems resulting in the death of the safest forms of transport, with safety continuing to someone who need not have died, and may lead to other improve. deaths in the future. That is the point that the Slades are Recent improvements in the industry include the making. introduction of new train protection systems, new rolling One final point I want to make is about the difference stock and better management of the infrastructure. The in the level of passenger care between Network Rail and independent rail safety regulator, the Office of Rail London Underground, which was made clear to me Regulation, has acknowledged a steady improvement in only this morning as I was coming in by tube. Train railway safety standards, and the UK’s record is comparable dispatchers on London Underground, as I witnessed, to that of other western European countries. To build seem to take great care to watch the trains arrive and further on this strong safety record, the high level leave the station, telling passengers to stand back as the output specification for rail calls for a 3 per cent. train approaches and leaves. I am sure that other hon. reduction in the risk of death or injury to passengers Members have had the same experience, and I feel good and staff by the end of 2014. about that happening. It seems reasonable and logical. I realise that those overall improvements may come Furthermore, there are both audible and written as little comfort in the unfortunate but thankfully rare announcements on London Underground, reminding circumstances in which fatalities and injuries occur. Just passengers to “Please mind the gap between the train over a year ago, when he was a Transport Minister, my and the platform.”Why are there not more announcements hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark) like that on Network Rail? Why is it left to a sort of debated the tragic events that resulted in the death of lottery? Simon Slade when he fell between platform and train at Given that London Underground and Network Rail Gidea Park station. The circumstances surrounding are regulated for safety purposes by the same body, the Simon’s death were deeply regrettable, and were Office of Rail Regulation, and that the ORR’s “Railway compounded by the fact that he was not found for a Safety Principles and Guidance” does not say anything considerable length of time after the original accident. substantive about such announcements, it would seem However, all the organisations that examined or investigated that the greater care taken of passengers on London the incident found it to be an unfortunate accident, with Underground happens regardless of any rules or guidance. no fault on the part of the railways. London Underground has decided that it is common The investigation by Her Majesty’s railway inspectorate sense to take those actions, and that is my point. If it concluded that Mr Slade’s death was an accident. That does so because it is common sense, why is it not was confirmed in the coroner’s verdict of accidental necessarily common sense to do it elsewhere? What is death. Separately, an investigation by British Transport the point of the ORR if it does not apply a consistent police and a case review by the Crown Prosecution framework of rules to both its networks and if it lets Service concluded that there was no basis for bringing a things lie as they do, with such inconsistency? Mr. and prosecution. The rail accident investigation branch Mrs. Slade are simply asking for those organisations conducted a preliminary examination of the incident, involved in this case to accept some responsibility, which included a review of the police evidence and the because of the failure to adopt a clear set of rules and HMRI report to determine if it should investigate the assessments, for the death of their son. They do not case. It concluded that an investigation was unlikely to want to find a way of suing, or taking the matter improve the safety of railways and prevent future accidents. further. They simply want at least some clear understanding. They also want—and this is the critical part—those Mr. Duncan Smith: I am sorry to delay the Minister, organisations, in recognising that they have some but I wish to make it clear that the original investigation responsibility, to make an effort to change things for the was ludicrously delayed because the inspectorate did future and amend the rules so that such a tragedy does not follow up the accident immediately; it assumed that not happen again. Simon was one of those supposedly causing trouble on 67WH Passenger Safety (Railway 9 MARCH 2010 Passenger Safety (Railway 68WH Platforms) Platforms) [Mr. Duncan Smith] I am sure that the House will agree that the RSSB’s work is a positive development, but that is even more the tracks further down the line. The whole issue was the case because the RSSB and Mr. Slade have been therefore left, and as a result the Slades were told in a working closely on these issues. Indeed, they have agreed terrible way about the death of their son. For the to be joint signatories to a proposal to introduce a rail record, it was a failure on the part of the inspectorate, industry standard, with appropriate guidance for the and although it has come to a conclusion, it was utterly benefit of train operators. The proposal is for the RIS complacent at the time. to include guidance on the dispatch element before the train starts to move, based on the findings in T743, and Chris Mole: I acknowledge what the right hon. on reducing the risk of people falling from the platform Gentleman says. during departure once the train has begun to depart. I am aware that the actions of the train dispatcher on We hope that that development will contribute to an the night of Simon Slade’s death were investigated, the even further reduction in the risk of travelling on the conclusion being that he acted correctly. It was not part railways, perhaps preventing similar accidents from taking of his duties, as set down in the railway rule book, to place in future. observe the train’s departure from the platform; as a I assure the House that the ORR, the independent result, with the station otherwise quiet at that time of health and safety regulator of the railways, continues to night, no one saw Mr. Slade run alongside the departing monitor the safety aspects of train despatch. Its railway train, fall over, and then disappear down the gap between safety directorate, which was formed from Her Majesty’s the train and the platform. railway inspectorate, has carried out a number of inspections The right hon. Gentleman raised concerns about and investigations of train despatch issues throughout those rule book procedures during the previous debate, the rail network during 2009-10. as he did again today, and looked for some change to be made to the rail industry approach. As he said, the Mr. Duncan Smith: I asked this question of the coroner in the Simon Slade case wrote to the Rail Safety Minister’s predecessor, who promised to keep the matter and Standards Board after the inquest, inviting under review—which he has done. Why does he think consideration of changes to the part of the rule book that the device of changing the rules is so unacceptable? relevant to train dispatch. I understand that the RSSB What is the reason behind that? put that request to the train operator and management standards committee, or TOM. Having considered the Chris Mole: I struggle to speculate on the reasons. incident, it decided that no action was appropriate at The right hon. Gentleman asked why there had been no the time. I note, however, that questions on the platform- risk assessment at Gidea Park station. I understand that train interface are regularly considered by TOM, and if the gap was within the parameters specified by the addressed when appropriate, including on train dispatch. industry, it would not happen, but that if the gap was I am pleased to note that, as part of that ongoing greater than the given measurement, a risk assessment scrutiny of procedures, the RSSB has recently completed would be made and mitigating measures introduced if it research project No. T743, which provided a review of was excessive. passenger train dispatch from stations. It took account I was about to say that the ORR, through its rail of the modern characteristics of train operation. However, safety directorate, considers the relevant train operating its definition of dispatch was confined to procedures company’s safety certificate and authorisation applications before the train wheels have started to turn, and was not as they relate to train despatch. They also meet the directly applicable to the factors found in the Slade case. relevant TOC safety team, make checks at stations, That research will have highlighted for the industry scrutinise risk assessments and competency files, and knowledge of the potential issues that relate to platform- undertake journeys with train guards through unstaffed train interface safety throughout the train dispatch stations. In that way, they can get a thorough understanding process. That should prompt individual operators to of the safety and risk issues associated with train dispatch, re-examine how processes are applied at the locations and intervene if necessary. for which they are responsible, identify any weaknesses We must not forget that the gaps have a safety function. and implement appropriate mitigation measures. Although the minimal gaps that we find on modern I believe that additional work has been undertaken tram systems would be ideal, a gap is necessary on the by RSSB on the risks of dispatch once the wheels of the national rail network to ensure that trains do not strike train have started to turn. That was prompted by industry the platform, particularly when passing through at speed requests and the Slade family’s “Mind the Gap”campaign. or, like freight trains, they are of larger dimensions. To I believe that it has been concluded that industry-wide an extent, that answers the right hon. Gentleman’s changes are not likely to be of benefit, but that various question about the different practices of London options could beneficially be employed in certain locations Underground and the heavy rail network. It is true to or situations. A range of options to reduce the risk of observe that London Underground has train dispatchers, people falling from the platform during train departure but they are present only at busy times and at busy has been analysed by RSSB experts, and a paper will be stations. Those circumstances are not universal on the discussed by the RSSB TOM standards committee shortly. London underground, and it would not necessarily be I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that appropriate for them to be so. we are all interested in hearing the outcome of those discussions. I was sorry to hear him say that Mr. Slade Mr. Duncan Smith: Before he concludes will the Minister was not content with the position taken by the RSSB. I please say that he now thinks that the Government find that regrettable, and I shall write to him with the should look again at changing the rules for the dispatchers? RSSB’s views on the points that he raised. Anything short of that will again leave things open to 69WH Passenger Safety (Railway 9 MARCH 2010 Passenger Safety (Railway 70WH Platforms) Platforms) abuse. Will he get up and say, “I think it is a good idea to existing ones. As my fellow Minister noted last year, that they should look at this again”—not just guidance, not every gap at every station currently meets those but a rule change? standards, due to tight curves or historically low platforms that remain at stations with low usage. Where the gap is severe, operators may take independent action to Chris Mole: I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman mitigate the problem—for example, by making warning that guidance that steers the train operating companies announcements of the sort mentioned by the right hon. to look appropriately at the risks at each station sounds Gentleman or by marking the edge of the platform. If like common sense to us all. However, I am not sure such action has not been taken but is considered necessary whether he is asking for the rules to be changed and to by the ORR, its inspectors can insist that mitigation be universally applied. I do not think that that would be measures are taken; it can also require substantial physical the right thing to do. improvements to be made if necessary. Industry standards and guidance recommend maximum clearances between platforms and footplates on passenger 2pm trains, and those are applied by Network Rail when Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order building new platforms or making significant changes No. 10(11)).

7WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

communities build a low-carbon future, not stand in Written Ministerial their way. In building this low-carbon future, we remain committed to protecting our valued natural and historic Statements environments. We are making no change to established green belt policy. We need to plan for unprecedented changes but we do not expect local communities to Tuesday 9 March 2010 acquiesce to proposals with unacceptable impacts. To help introduce and operate this new planning policy, I am making available a package worth £9.75 million COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT to develop the new skills and improve capacity across the range of local authority responsibilities needed to tackle climate change. This will help strengthen the Planning skills and knowledge needed by planners, including in planning for increased renewable energy supply and encouraging local communities to take positive action The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I am today on climate change. publishing for consultation proposals for: A Planning Policy Statement: “Planning for a Low-Carbon Planning for a Natural and Healthy Environment Future in a Changing Climate”. A Planning Policy Statement: “Planning for a Natural and The new draft Planning Policy Statement: “Planning Healthy Environment”. for a Natural and Healthy Environment” streamlines I am also today publishing as final policy Planning and consolidates existing planning policy on biodiversity, Policy Statement 25 Supplement: “Development and geological conservation, landscape, agricultural land Coastal Change”. quality, heritage and undeveloped coasts, open space, I am placing copies of these two consultations, both and land and facilities for sport and recreation. of which close on 1 June, and the final policy on This provides a clearer and more strategic national development and coastal change, along with an policy framework for the protection and enhancement accompanying summary of consultation responses to of the natural environment, and the provision of that policy, in the Library of the House. sufficient areas of open space, and land and facilities for sport and recreation to meet the needs of communities. Moving towards a low-carbon economy requires a In doing so, the policy statement demonstrates our revolution in the way we design, heat and power our commitment to the natural environment has not buildings. Planning must respond to this challenge, and changed. help make low-carbon lifestyles the norm. Whatever is done to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the future, In bringing together policies on the natural environment past emissions mean that some climate change is already and open spaces, I am also meeting the commitment inevitable. As well as planning for a low-carbon future made in “World Class Places” to publish planning we must therefore also plan for a future with a changing policy to deliver green infrastructure. Green infrastructure climate—and do this in a way that protects our natural can provide a wide range of environmental benefits in and cultural heritage. both rural and urban areas including flood water storage, Planning for a Low-Carbon Future in a Changing Climate sustainable drainage, urban cooling and local access to The draft Planning Policy Statement: “Planning for a shady outdoor space. It also provides habitats for wildlife, Low-Carbon Future in a Changing Climate” updates and through the creation and enhancement of “green and brings together in one place existing planning policy corridors”, should aid the natural migration of more on climate change and renewable energy. When finalised, species responding to the changing climate. this streamlined policy will be central to our national series of planning policy statements, and operate alongside Development and Coastal Change the new suite of national policy statements for energy The supplement to Planning Policy Statement 25: infrastructure. It will provide the overarching framework “Development and Coastal Change” provides planning for our planning policies on climate change, both on policy to help communities manage and adapt to coastal measures to reduce carbon and to adapt to a changing change. Positive planning has an important role in climate. helping communities to manage risk and adapt to an We already have planning policy on climate change ever changing coastline. (published in 2007) and renewable energy (2004). This consultation brings together this policy into a single To complement the strong planning policy to manage document and reflects the ambition to tackle climate coastal flooding in Planning Policy Statement 25 (PPS25), change set out in the “Low Carbon Transition Plan”. the new planning policy extends the PPS25 strategic This Government’s determination to transform how we risk-based approach to manage future physical changes use energy was underlined when we published on 2 March to the coastline. This will help communities to adapt 2010 “Warm Homes, Greener Homes” www.decc.gov.uk/ over time to changing coastlines. This will also prevent en/content/cms/what_we_do/consumers/saving_energy/ new development from being put at risk by avoiding hem/hem.aspx. This strategy sets out the key role of inappropriate development in areas that are vulnerable local government and planning in driving the development to coastal change and directing development away from of renewable heat networks. these areas. It provides a flexible planning approach so Moving to a low-carbon economy will now be central that appropriate development that would support the to planning strategies and decisions on planning economic and social viability of a community is able to applications. Planning decisions will help business and go ahead, but will be safe. 9WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT giving police and councils more powers to tackle the problem of dangerous dogs by the introduction of dog control notices; Television Licence Fees either getting rid of exemption rules that allow some people to keep banned types of dogs or if exemptions are to remain ensuring that the system works more effectively; The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what to do about the list of banned breeds; (Mr. Ben Bradshaw): On 18 January 2007, Official Report, introduction of compulsory micro-chipping for dogs so that column 933, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and the dog owners can be more easily traced; and, Olympics, and Paymaster General announced the planned introduction of compulsory third-party insurance so that victims annual increases in the TV licence fee under the BBC’s of dog attacks are financially recompensed. six-year funding settlement, which began in April 2007. Copies of the consultation paper will be placed in the In line with that settlement, from 1 April 2010, the fee Vote Office and are available at: www.defra.gov.uk/ for a colour television licence will rise to £145.50 and corporate/consult/dangerous-dogs/. the fee for a black and white licence will rise to £49.00. I will today lay before the House the regulations necessary to bring these new fees into force. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE DEFENCE HMT Contingency Fund Skynet 5D The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Affairs (David Miliband): The Foreign and Commonwealth (Mr. Quentin Davies): I wish to inform the House that Office requires a cash advance of £90 million from the my Department is extending our PFI contract with Contingencies Fund to cover ongoing operational costs Paradigm, a wholly owned subsidiary of the EADS, to such as the payment of suppliers until Parliament has enable the communications satellite, Skynet 5D, to be approved the spring supplementary estimates towards completed and launched. The Skynet 5 constellation the end of March 2010. provides the communication capability vital to the success Parliamentary approval for additional resources of of our military operations. Skynet 5D is partially built £134,619,000 has been sought in the 2009-10 spring and was originally designated as a back-up option supplementary estimate for the Foreign and Commonwealth should any Skynet 5 satellite fail to perform as required. Office. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated Recent work has demonstrated that the current capability at £90 million will be met by repayable cash advances of the Skynet 5 constellation (Skynet 5A, B and C) will from the Contingencies Fund. be exceeded by around the middle of this decade. Skynet 5D will be launched in 2013 to meet an anticipated increase in demand for communications bandwidth between 2015 and 2020. JUSTICE The deal with Paradigm will increase the value of the PFI contract by over £400 million to about £3.5 billion. As well as securing essential military capability, it will Bilingual Juries (Wales) also directly create around 100 new jobs, mainly at EADS Astrium/Paradigm sites in Portsmouth and Stevenage and sustain a large number at both sites and The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor also in Corsham, Wiltshire. (Mr. Jack Straw): The Welsh Language Act 1993 requires that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales, English and Welsh are to be treated ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS on the basis of equality, so far as is appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable. Participants Dangerous Dogs in criminal and civil trials in Wales have the right to use the Welsh language in court. There is, however, no provision for ensuring that The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and juries in Wales must be comprised of members who are Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): Together with my right bilingual in both Welsh and English. The reason for this hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home is that juries must, by law, be selected at random from Department, I am today consulting on whether current the whole community. legislation relating to dangerous dogs adequately protects the public and encourages responsible dog ownership. A consultation exercise on “The Use of Bilingual The aim is to review current legislation to better protect (English and Welsh-speaking) Juries in Certain Criminal the public; help enforcers tackle those who abuse the Trials in Wales” was conducted between December law; and stop the abuse suffered by dogs that end up in 2005 and March 2006. the wrong hands. The consultation will run until 1 June, The consultation paper invited comments on the and during the consultation period, I will meet a wide desirability of selecting juries in certain criminal trials variety of stakeholders to discuss their views. The in Wales, all of whose members would be bilingual in consultation looks at: Welsh and English. A bilingual jury would be selected extending dangerous dogs law to cover all places including where, for example, it was likely that much of the private property; evidence at the trial would be given in Welsh. 11WS Written Ministerial Statements9 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

The consultation paper made it clear that the secure amendments to the proposed regulation which Government have not decided whether bilingual juries better align it with UK interests. Good progress has were desirable in principle, and would not consider this been made on those areas of concern to the UK. further until after the consultation period was over. There will be information from the Commission on The subject is not straightforward because it is one of progress in the negotiations on a second stage EU-US those which comes down to a choice between two good Air Transport Agreement. This will be followed by a and desirable things—in this instance, the principle of policy debate aimed at giving guidance to the Commission random selection in the jury system and greater use of on taking forward the negotiations, with the aim of the Welsh language in court. completing them this year. On this occasion the Government have decided not to The Council will receive information from the presidency proceed with bilingual juries, primarily because the followed by a policy debate on the outcome of the balance of argument lies against their negative impact European Single Sky Conference (Madrid 25 and on the principle of random selection of juries from the 26 February). The UK continues to be a firm supporter community as a whole, and hence on social inclusion of the Single European Sky and its supporting technology and justice. programme, SESAR, and endorses the conclusions reached I am placing a copy of the full Government response at the conference in Madrid on the Single European Sky to the consultation in the Libraries of both Houses. second package and its associated roadmap. The roadmap sets out actions under four pillars—performance, safety, technology and airport capacity, and under an overarching fifth pillar (human factors) integral to the other four. A TRANSPORT very tight deadline of 2012 is stipulated in the amended legislation. EU Transport Council Bus Passenger Services The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The first Transport Council of the The Minister of State, Department for Transport Spanish presidency will take place in Brussels on 11 March. (Mr. Sadiq Khan): I am today announcing the publication The Council will be asked to reach a general approach of a 12-week consultation on improving bus passenger on a directive on transportable pressure equipment. services through the regulatory framework. Copies of The UK supports this directive. It will align with the the consultation and impact assessment have been placed changes to the international agreements on the carriage in the Libraries of the House. of dangerous goods by rail and road (RID & ADR) It is my aim to modernise the local bus service which form the annexes of Directive 2009/68/EC. This regulatory framework and improve the passenger bus proposed directive has been developed by the Commission experience for everyone. As a result of discussions with with the assistance of member states, including the UK, stakeholders following the coming into force of the and industry. The proposed directive also takes the Local Transport Act regulations and guidance, and opportunity to provide greater clarity on the responsibilities after careful consideration, the Department for Transport of users, including owners, importers and manufacturers, now seeks views on a small number of changes to and so should improve compliance and enforcement. secondary legislation. These changes would improve There will be a progress report on the proposal for a the provision of reliable and up-to-date information, directive on aviation security charges. The UK will as reduce administrative costs for local authorities and ever work towards achieving a fair and proportionate bidders for service contracts, increase the scope for outcome that balances the interests of passengers and securing a better deal on fares for passengers and ensure airports. stricter compliance with the code of conduct for drivers The Council will be asked to reach a general approach and passengers. This includes, as part of the Government’s on a regulation on investigation and prevention of commitment to improving personal security and safety accidents and incidents in civil aviation. The UK supports on public transport, a proposal to ban the consumption this measure in principle, as improved assistance and of alcohol and/or carriage of an open container of co-operation in the investigation of accidents and incidents alcohol on regulated schedule local bus services. would facilitate improved understanding of the causes Taken as a whole, the proposals in this consultation of such events and lead to improved safety in aviation should offer benefits to passengers, flexibility for operators, across Europe. My officials have been negotiating to and improvements to bus services in general.

3P Petitions9 MARCH 2010 Petitions 4P Petitions Traffic Calming (Irchester) The Humble Petition of Residents of Irchester; Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas. Tuesday 9 March 2010 Sheweth that there is a problem with speeding traffic through Irchester, welcomes the efforts of local councillors, council officers and the police in devising road calming OBSERVATIONS measures; that the Petitioners support the mini roundabout, the vehicle-activated signs, the police enforcement scheme and other measures; but that the Petitioners have TRANSPORT reservations about the chicanes on the Wollaston Road; and notes that a survey of 543 people showed that the Station Footbridge Repair majority wanted revised traffic calming in Wollaston Road. The Petition of Residents of Watchet and others, Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable Declares that the footbridge at Watchet station is House urges the Secretary of State for Communities closed at present, because it is unsafe to use; declares and Local Government to request that Northamptonshire that the closure is seriously inconvenient to residents County Council in conjunction with the Borough Council and could endanger safety; further declares that there is of Wellingborough and Irchester Parish Council, review a risk that the footbridge at Watchet station will be lost the chicanes in Wollaston Road to see whether alternative permanently, because insufficient funds are available for or revised traffic calming measures are necessary. its safe repair and maintenance. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever The Petitioners therefore request that the House of pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr. Peter Bone, Official Report, Commons urge the Government to take steps to assist 2 March 2010; Vol. 506, c. 917 .] and encourage the West Somerset district council to [P000747] repair the footbridge as soon as possible. Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr. Ian Wollaston Road is a local road for which Liddell-Grainger, Official Report, 24 February 2010; Northamptonshire County Council is responsible as Vol. 506, c. 418 .] local highway authority. It is for the Council to decide [P000742] in consultation with the local community which measures are best suited to satisfy the requirements of local Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: schemes. West Somerset district council has responsibility for The primary legislation governing traffic calming is this bridge and closed it following a safety inspection in contained in sections 90A to 90F of the Highways Act October 2009. 1980 (as amended by the Transport Act 1981). The I understand that the council has sought a suitable Highways (Road Humps) Regulations 1999 prescribe contractor to carry out repairs on the bridge to make it the dimensions of road humps, and the Highways (Traffic safe for public use. It sent out details of the work to Calming) Regulations 1999 prescribe a list of traffic seven potential contractors and received back only one calming features. bid which was beyond the budget available. Council The Department for Transport’s technical guidance officials have recently met with the bidder to seek to on traffic calming Local Transport Note (LTN): 1/07 explore options to resolve the matter and expect to Traffic Calming gives advice on the design and installation report back to the council in the next two months. of all types of traffic calming.

157W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 158W

¤1.6 billion is the approximate committed spend on Written Answers to the design and development of the system. The majority of this has been funded by ESA who provided ¤1.46 billion, Questions with the remainder funded by the EU. The UK share of the ESA contribution is ¤168.05 million, of which ¤161.1 million has been paid and the UK is committed Tuesday 9 March 2010 to pay the remainder during 2010. UK contributions to EU funds are for use in all its expenditure and are not calculated on an individual programme basis. TRANSPORT The current phase of the Galileo programme, the deployment and operation of the system (2010-13), will Aviation: Security see the Galileo programme achieve full operational capability (FOC) and is currently being procured by Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department ESA on behalf of the European Commission. The EU for Transport what work his Department is funding of Galileo between 2007 and 2013 has been undertaking to test systems for screening liquids in capped at ¤3.4 billion. airports. [321188] The European Commission has estimated a further Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has worked £6 billion will be needed for operation and maintenance with European partners to establish agreed criteria for costs from 2013-30. We expect the commission to bring the testing of liquids screening systems, and is currently forward, in spring of this year, proposals for how funding working with manufacturers to share data and consider after 2013 might be sourced and what elements might opportunities for operational trials. come from private and public sources. Bus Services: Concessions Government Car and Despatch Agency: Driving Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department Offences for Transport how much his Department had spent on concessionary bus travel for pensioners in (a) Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Minister of State, Gloucestershire and (b) Stroud constituency on the Department for Transport how many driving offences latest date for which figures are available. [321039] of each type have been committed by those who drive Ministers whilst on duty for the Government Car and Mr. Khan: From April 2008, the Department for Despatch Agency in each of the last three years. Transport has provided additional special grant funding to local authorities to cover the extra cost of providing [320792] the extension to the concession; which now guarantees free off-peak local bus travel across England to all Paul Clark: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of eligible older and disabled residents: 1 March 2010, Official Report, column 859W. (a) A total of £2,468,030 in 2008-09 and £2,526,238 in 2009-10 to all of the travel concession authorities (TCAs) in the county of Gloucestershire (which includes the unitary authority of South Illegal Immigrants Gloucestershire council and Stroud district council); (b) £237,197 in 2008-09 and £242,791 in 2009-10 to Stroud district council. Mr. Syms: To ask the Minister of State, Department (c) Communities and Local Government (CLG) continues to for Transport how many staff his Department and its provide the bulk of concessionary travel funding to local authorities agencies have appointed who were later discovered to through Formula Grant. Before 1 April 2008, funding for the be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320449] statutory minimum bus concession was provided exclusively through the Formula Grant system. Chris Mole: In each of the last five years, there have The Department for Transport did however provide been no illegal immigrants found to be working as a £31 million of grant to England in 2007-08 for the cost Department for Transport employee. of producing and issuing the new England-wide bus passes to all those eligible, of which a total of £539,760 In December 2008, one illegal immigrant was found went to the TCAs of Gloucestershire; this includes to be working at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Stroud’s allocation of £40,736. Authority as an employee of a contractor and was arrested on 10 December 2008. The contractor carried Geographical Information Systems out all relevant checks prior to employment but was deceived by the forged documentation provided by this Mark Pritchard: To ask the Minister of State, individual. Department for Transport how much had been spent People employed to work in Government Departments on the Galileo Project as at 1 March 2010; and what and their agencies, either directly or through a contractor, future funding is planned for the project. [320229] are required to satisfy requirements on identity, nationality and immigration status prior to the offer of employment. Mr. Khan: The European Union (EU) and member On the one occasion within the last five years where states of the European Space Agency (ESA) have jointly compliance checks have found illegal immigrants working funded the design and development of Galileo. The for Department for Transport contractors, the individual deployment and operational phase of the programme was kept in detention until his appearance in court on and all future costs are the responsibility of the EU. 12 January 2009. 159W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 160W

Pilots: Licensing Snow and Ice

Mr. Todd: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Minister of State, for Transport how he will ensure the Civil Aviation Department for Transport what estimate he has made Authority fulfils its commitment to maintain the UK of the aggregate cost to local authorities in (a) Instruments Meteorological Conditions Pilots Licence Northamptonshire and (b) England of repairs to local rating. [321152] roads as a result of the recent cold weather. [321297]

Paul Clark: I am not aware of any such commitment Mr. Khan: The maintenance of local roads in England by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). The CAA, with is a matter for each local highway authority. It is for the support of the Government, continues to work to each individual authority to assess which parts of its influence the development of European requirements network are in need of repair and what standards with the aim of helping the European Aviation Safety should be applied, based upon their local knowledge. Agency meet its primary objective of ensuring a high It will be for local highway authorities to estimate the uniform level of safety. costs of repairing damage to their roads, including where they consider damage was caused by this winter. Roads: Snow and Ice Waterloo Station

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of Department for Transport what consideration he has 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 208W, on given to the development of the former Eurostar roads: snow and ice, how much the Highways Agency platforms at Waterloo station for purposes other than has spent on salt from overseas suppliers in each of the for domestic passenger transport. [321399] last 12 years. [320821] Chris Mole: It has always been the Department for Mr. Khan: The Highways Agency does not purchase Transport’s intention to bring the former Eurostar platforms salt directly, as this is the responsibility of their contracted at Waterloo back into use for domestic passenger services. service providers, as part of their requirement to deliver There are no plans for any other permanent use; the winter service to keep the strategic network safe and although a series of theatrical performances are being open during severe winter weather. Consequently the staged during summer and autumn 2010 for the benefit Highways Agency has not purchased any overseas salt of the Railway Children charity before the platforms over the last 12 years, except, as a result of the national are brought back into use for domestic services. salt shortages experienced over the last two winter seasons, the Highways Agency has helped facilitate the importation of overseas salt to its service providers. In 2008-09 season, the Highways Agency helped to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS import approximately 58,000 tonnes of salt, with a Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund: Nottinghamshire further 127,000 tonnes imported in the 2009-10 winter season. The price paid by the Highways Agency’s service John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for providers varies between £50-£95 per tonne, depending Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what on the salt supplier and haulage distances. information was provided by Nottinghamshire county council to his Department on its mineral plans and Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, aggregates levy sustainability fund (ALSF) spending Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of criteria in reaching devolved ALSF funding agreements 22 February 2010, Official Report, column 208W, on with his Department. [321032] roads: snow and ice, how much salt was used on the strategic network in each of the last 12 years. [320823] Huw Irranca-Davies: Funding for a number of local authorities, including Nottinghamshire, that are most Mr. Khan: The Highways Agency is responsible for affected by aggregates extraction is provided direct from maintaining and operating the strategic trunk road and DEFRA via the Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund motorway network in England on behalf of the Secretary (ALSF) on the basis that the authorities themselves will of State for Transport. Actual delivery of the maintenance have discretion over where that funding is spent. There activities, including winter maintenance, is carried out are no “devolved funding agreements”in the way suggested. by the agency’s contracted service providers. Information on the individual projects funded through As well as delivering precautionary salt treatments the ALSF has been provided via the project database on and snow ploughing during severe winter weather, the the DEFRA website and includes project details, location, agency’s service providers are required to maintain sufficient cost and match funding. salt stocks to treat their part of the network. These activities are paid for within lump sum payments and as John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for such, information on individual elements such as salt Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage volume used is not routinely collected and is not therefore of minerals extracted from quarries in readily available. Nottinghamshire was from the parish of Misson in the Following the end of the winter maintenance period, latest period for which figures are available; and how the Highways Agency will examine the levels of salt much aggregates levy sustainability fund money has used during periods of adverse weather to determine been spent in projects in Misson in the last 10 years. best practice for future years. [321033] 161W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 162W

Huw Irranca-Davies: Nottinghamshire county council Average salaries has informed us that 6 per cent. of the aggregates £ extracted from quarries in Nottinghamshire came from Known Known the parish of Misson (from most recent (2008) figures disabled non-disabled from the East Midlands Aggregates Working Party). Part-time All grades 37,573 37,461 Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund (ALSF) money has only been available for community theme (“Objective 5”) projects in Nottinghamshire since 2005-06. No ALSF AH Full-time AA/AO 18,163 18,762 Delivery Partner has recorded money being spent on EO 25,142 24,523 projects in Misson on the DEFRA ALSF database. HEO/SEO 30,857 30,632 Departmental Disabled Staff G7 and 53,036 50,360 above Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for All grades 24,529 28,863 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many and Part-time All grades 23,266 25,634 what proportion of staff in (a) his Department and (b) the executive agencies for which he is responsible are disabled; and what the average salary in (i) his CEFAS Full-time All grades 19,950 25,400 Department and (ii) the executive agencies is of (A) Part-time All grades — 23,810 full-time disabled staff, (B) full-time non-disabled staff, (C) part-time disabled staff and (D) part-time non- disabled staff. [317890] FERA Full-time AA/AO 16,476 16,803 EO 22,589 22,598

Dan Norris: The following table shows the number HEO/SEO 33,033 31,197 and percentage of staff in DEFRA and its agencies that have declared that they are disabled. The figures are as G7 and 48,725 50,358 above at 31 January 2010, except for RPA which are as at 31 March 2009. All grades 26,463 28,993 Known disabled staff Part-time All grades 26,193 26,296 Percentage of Percentage of all Number declared staff MFA Full-time AA/AO — 20,734 DEFRA 128 19.1 5.1 EO 25,819 24,893 AH 109 28.4 6.1 CEFAS 30 n/a 5.4 HEO/SEO 30,486 35,962 FERA 43 7.9 5.0 G7 and — 51,625 MFA 5 13.5 2.1 above RPA 304 n/a 10.4 All grades 28,619 33,680 VLA 135 14.3 10.5 Part-time All grades — — VMD 6 10.9 3.7 Keytotable: AH—Animal Health CEFAS—Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Agriculture Research RPA Full-time AA/AO 18,185 17,773 FERA—Food and Environment Research Agency EO 24,063 23,505 MFA—Marine and Fisheries Agency RPA—Rural Payments Agency HEO/SEO 29,935 30,827 VLA—Veterinary Laboratories Agency VMD—Veterinary Medicines Directorate. G7 and 48,050 51,566 The following table shows the average (mean) salaries above of staff who have declared their disability status. Salaries All grades 22,669 23,791 do not include allowances or bonuses. A breakdown by Part-time All grades 20,870 22,128 grade grouping has been included for full-time staff in the table, except for CEFAS for whom the information is not available. No breakdown by grade has been VLA Full-time AA/AO 18,311 18,292 provided for part-time staff as the numbers are too EO 24,057 24,078 small to provide a meaningful comparison. The figures are as at 31 January 2010, except for RPA which are as HEO/SEO 34,608 35,972 at 31 March 2009. G7 and 53,191 54,204 above Average salaries £ All grades 24,776 26,727 Known Known Part-time All grades 22,696 24,688 disabled non-disabled

DEFRA Full-time AA/AO 21,412 21,024 VMD Full-time AA/AO 21,051 21,502 EO 26,731 26,302 EO 28,325 26,567 HEO/SEO 33,984 34,269 G7 and 60,554 53,962 HEO/SEO 34,584 34,887 above G7 and — 51,133 All grades 36,174 38,358 above 163W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 164W

Average salaries Fish: Animal Feed £ Known Known Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for disabled non-disabled Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether his All grades 26,253 31,575 Department has made an assessment of the effects on Part-time All grades 34,515 29,693 the economy of a ban on fishmeal in organic animal feeds; and if he will make a statement; [320843] Keytotable: AH—Animal Health (2) what assessment has been made of the likelihood CEFAS—Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Agriculture Research of increased fishmeal usage in organic animal feeds due FERA—Food and Environment Research Agency MFA—Marine and Fisheries Agency to the reclassification of fish as a non-agricultural RPA—Rural Payments Agency ingredient; and if he will make a statement; [320844] VLA—Veterinary Laboratories Agency VMD—Veterinary Medicines Directorate. (3) whether his Department has made an evaluation The figures on a grade by grade basis show that the of the nutritional value of (a) organic animal feed and differences between disabled and non-disabled staff are (b) animal feed containing fishmeal; and if he will very small. In some grades the average salary of disabled make a statement. [320845] staff are higher than non-disabled staff. Jim Fitzpatrick: We are aware that there is considerable Although declaring disability status is not mandatory concern in the industry about the practicality of complying in DEFRA, we do encourage staff to declare their with the requirement of EU rules for organic production status to enable effective monitoring of HR policies. that after 1 January 2012 organic pigs and poultry must be fed entirely on organically produced feed. We understand Departmental Internet that providing a diet with a properly balanced protein content using wholly organically produced ingredients Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for is a particular concern because of the difficulties with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many sourcing the correct protein ingredients for feed for designs for its website his Department has organic pigs and poultry. DEFRA’s Advisory Committee commissioned since 2005. [318652] on Organic Standards is investigating how this issue might be dealt with, including how the use of fishmeal Dan Norris: DEFRA has commissioned only one might contribute to a solution to the problem. website redesign since its creation in 2001. This took Fisheries: Carbon Emissions place in 2009 and the new-look website was launched on 17 September 2009. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Dogs: Animal Welfare Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much in carbon dioxide emissions was given off by the fishing fleet in (a) 2004, (b) 2005, (c) 2006, (d) 2007, (e) Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 and (f) 2009; and if he will make a statement. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his [320842] Department is taking to increase the level of (a) detection and (b) enforcement action in respect of Huw Irranca-Davies: Figures are not available in relation incidents of dog fighting. [320590] to actual emissions from UK fishing vessels. However, an assessment of the total emissions from the fisheries Jim Fitzpatrick: Police are provided with powers sector for 2006 has been provided in DEFRA’s Food under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Dangerous 2030 strategy. This states that, as a total of greenhouse Dogs Act 1991 (as amended) for tackling dog fighting. gas emissions associated with the UK food chain by Last year we provided Association of Chief Constables sector, fisheries accounted for 1mt of the 160mt CO2e with funding to help police forces to train dedicated produced. “dog legislation officers” who are familiar with the law Available data over the period of 2000-08 indicates on dangerous dogs. that for the UK fishing fleet there has been a reduction However, it is for chief officers to decide how they in engine capacity and fishing effort, as well as a move target their resources to tackling or reducing crime in toward less fuel intensive fishing methods. This information their particular force. is in the following tables.

Table 1: Development of UK registered fishing fleet, as at 1 January 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

10m and under Number 5,730 5,591 5,527 5,589 5,439 5,404 5,169 Total Tonnage 18,779 18,910 19,018 19,156 18,961 18,895 18,295 Total engine power 277,610 278,475 279,697 284,443 280,079 280,824 274,170 Over 10m

Number 2,134 2,060 2,032 1,835 1,700 1,636 1,590 Total Tonnage 248,255 246,152 245,269 221,878 210,380 204,458 199,814 Total engine power 695,590 697,057 717,595 658,274 632,923 620,399 605,541 Total Fleet

Number 7,864 7,651 7,559 7,424 7,139 7,040 6,759 165W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 166W

Table 1: Development of UK registered fishing fleet, as at 1 January 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Total Tonnage 267,034 265,062 264,287 241,033 229,341 223,353 218,110 Total engine power 973,199 975,533 997,292 942,717 913,003 901,224 879,711

Reduction through Period due to Change over % change over decommissioning and decomm. Etc. period (-ve is period (-ve is pelagic aggregations (-ve is 2007 2008 2009 reduction) reduction) over period reduction)

10m and under Number 5,208 5,243 5,081 -649 -11% — — Total Tonnage 18,411 18,461 17,923 -856 -5% — — Total engine power 277,803 281,893 274,598 -3012 -1% — — Over 10m Number 1,555 1,534 1,506 -628 -29% -329 -15% Total Tonnage 196,678 194,417 190,048 -58,208 -23% -40,950 -16% Total engine power 588,310 577,806 564,780 -130,809 -19% -119,726 -17% Total Fleet Number 6,763 6,777 6,87 -1,277 -16% -329 -4% Total Tonnage 215,089 212,878 207,971 -59,063 -22% -40,950 -15% Total engine power 866,113 859,699 839,378 -133,821 -14% -119,726 -12%

Table 2: Over 10m UK active fishing fleet—details by data collection regulation segmentation: Segmentation based on fishing effort during the year in question % change over period Fleet (-ve is Heading segment 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 reduction)

Effort - Mobile - 20,552 21,725 18,425 17,650 17,581 16,106 13,208 11,996 8,030 -61 KW Days beam trawl at sea (million) Mobile - 83,921 78,713 70,474 62,743 54,774 49,184 46,050 44,634 45,861 -45 demersal trawl/seine Mobile - 7,235 6,916 6,782 6,446 6,852 7,068 6,405 6,412 5,851 -19 dredge Mobile - 15,877 15,149 15,544 16,701 17,186 13,568 10,447 11,035 9,439 -41 pelagic Mobile - 0,268 0,169 0,187 0,212 0,213 0,165 0,085 0,169 0,160 -40 polyvalent Passive - 5,426 5,849 5,748 4,989 4,957 4,303 2,674 2,156 1,963 -64 drift and fixed nets Passive - 2,268 2,085 2,319 1,286 1,319 1,836 3,036 3,296 3,038 34 gears using hooks Passive - 5,918 6,331 6,232 7,170 6,917 6,762 6,654 7,392 6,947 17 pots and traps Passive - 0,140 0,020 0,028 0,027 0,045 0,040 0,000 0,000 0,000 -100 polyvalent Polyvalent - 0,000 0,001 0,014 0,013 0,001 0,001 0,001 0,046 0,024 — mobile and passive gears

Total active 141,605 136,958 125,752 117,239 109,843 99,033 88,561 87,136 81,312 -43 fleet

Oils: Waste Disposal oils into lubricants. However, we are aware of the following life cycle studies conducted by others: Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Ecological and energetic assessment of re-refining used oils to base oils: Substitution of primarily produced base oils including Department has undertaken a life cycle assessment of semi-synthetic and synthetic compounds: re-refining waste oils into lubricants by (a) burning waste oils as recovered fuel oil in European Waste http://www.geir-rerefining.org/documents/ Incineration Directive-compliant plants and (b) other LCA_en_short_version.pdf means of disposal of waste oils. [320750] OECD Improving Recycling Report ENV/EPOC/ WGWPR(2005)3/FINAL: Dan Norris: DEFRA has not commissioned specific studies on the life cycle assessment of re-refining waste http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/24/14/35582045.pdf 167W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 168W

Critical Review of Existing Studies and Life Cycle Analysis on SCOTLAND the Regeneration and Incineration of Waste Oils: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/oil/ Departmental Buildings waste_oil_xsum.pdf Poultry: Animal Welfare Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how much his Department spent on office Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for refurbishments in each of the last 10 years. [320506] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will take steps to encourage chicken producers to meet the Ann McKechin: Under the terms of its building leases conditions of the RSPCA’s Freedom Food scheme. the Office is required to maintain the buildings to an [320849] acceptable standard of decoration and repair. In the case of the Scotland Office’s London premises this Jim Fitzpatrick: Farmers can join a specific assurance includes maintaining a grade one listed building of scheme or adopt standards which go beyond those considerable architectural significance. The Scotland required by law if they so wish. The Government encourage Office does not separately identify the costs of refurbishment membership of the relevant sector assurance schemes from the routine repair and replacement of existing such as Red Tractor and Freedom Food. It is not facilities. Over the period of the last 10 years, the Office Government’s role, however, to promote one specific has shared its accommodation with a number of other assurance scheme over another. Government Departments. The following figures show Public Holidays the gross total for repairs and maintenance of Scotland Office buildings, but does not include the contribution Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Departments towards their share of the costs. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of the Gross cost (£) introduction of an additional public holiday; and if he 1999-2000 150,354 will make a statement. [315119] 2000-01 224,719 2001-02 179,335 Dan Norris: DEFRA would not incur any additional 2002-03 99,310 cost to the pay bill, as staff would merely be paid for a 2003-04 179,853 day on which they were not working rather than one on 2004-05 374,129 which they were. 2005-06 331,803 Sheep: Slaughterhouses 2006-07 355,071 2007-081 1,011,254 Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 401,010 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he has 1 Under the terms of the building leases the Office is required to maintain the made a recent assessment of the effects on (a) market buildings to an acceptable standard of decoration and repair, which in 2007-08 transparency and (b) price comparison of variations in included roof and exterior repairs to Dover House in London. standards of sheep carcass dressing; and if he will bring forward legislative proposals to reinstate the dressing specification previously enforced by the Meat DEFENCE and Livestock Commission. [320806] Air Force: Snow and Ice Jim Fitzpatrick: A report was prepared for DEFRA in November 2008 reviewing the EU carcase classification Mr. Cameron: To ask the Secretary of State for system for beef and sheep in the light of common Defence what snow clearance equipment is available at agricultural policy reform. This included an assessment Royal Air Force bases. [320915] of the need for classification in providing transparency. Under EU legislation, classification of sheep carcases Bill Rammell: The RAF has a variety of Snow and according to the Community scale remains voluntary Ice Clearance (SNIC) equipment for the purpose of for member states. DEFRA has no plans to bring clearing aircraft and their operating surfaces, such as forward legislative proposals to make such classification runways, and roads. This ranges from specialist vehicles compulsory. Dressing specifications for sheep carcases for clearing snow and ice from runways and aircraft to are a matter for industry supply chains. ploughs and gritters for roads. Details of the types of SNIC equipment held can be found in the following table: NORTHERN IRELAND Number Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Description Purpose held

Trailer Sicard Towed runway snow clearing rotating brush 47 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State and blowers for Northern Ireland how many full-time equivalent Rolba Self-propelled snow clearing, rotating cutter 18 staff of each grade are employed by his Department to for deep snow assist special advisers. [321141] Trailer 600L Team Trailer towed chemical de-icing spray for 48 aircraft dispersal Mr. Woodward: It is the primary responsibility of one Trailer 2500L Team Trailer towed chemical spray for runway 20 member of the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) to assist de-icing special advisers. The staff member is at executive officer Hydro-Chafer Trailer towed chemical spray for runway 3 de-icing (EO) level and carries out other tasks too. 169W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 170W

Data prior to this period could be provided only at Number Description Purpose held disproportionate cost. Data for later months is still being compiled, including patients whose stay at Headley Trailer 3000L Knights Trailer towed chemical spray for runway 21 Court continues; patients who have not yet completed de-icing their stay at DMRC are not included in the figures LADS 10,000 Litre Self-propelled runway de-icing with snow 9 plough shown. Douglas Aircraft Self propelled high access for aircraft de-icing 12 De-Icer Armed Forces: Housing SDI Aircraft De-icer Self-propelled high access for aircraft de-icing 7 MATT Snow Plough Medium snow plough for clearing up to 45 Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for two inches of snow, aircraft dispersals Defence whether there will be Barnett consequentials L Blade Snow Plough Large snow plough for clearing runways 28 for Scotland from the funding for the Armed Forces (fits to large refueller) Home Ownership Scheme in England. [321216] K Blade Large snow plough for clearing runways 6 (fits to Schmidt Runway Sweepers) Trailer Road Gritter Loose material spreader for roads 36 Mr. Kevan Jones: This pilot scheme for armed forces 2000 Kg Load personnel is being funded from the existing Defence Trailer Road Gritter Loose material spreader for roads 9 budget. There are no Barnett consequentials. 1000 Kg Load Land Rover Snow Small plough for road clearing 14 Armed Forces: Military Decorations Plough 4 Tonne Vehicle Snow Medium snow plough for road clearing 14 Plough Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his policy is on awarding These resources are adequate for RAF requirements medals to members of the armed forces who served in with priority given to operational stations. When required Aden during the period June 1960 to July 1964. SNIC assets can be relocated as needed. [321049]

Armed Forces: Health Services Mr. Kevan Jones: The Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals (known as the HD Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee), which considers cases for new medals and Defence how long on average each patient stayed at makes recommendations to The Queen, has repeatedly DMRC Headley Court in each month since January made it clear that it does not revisit cases more than five 2003. [318475] years after the completion of a military campaign. There is no direct ministerial involvement with the Mr. Kevan Jones: Using information held on the Committee. Defence Patient Tracking System (DPTS), the following table presents the average (mean) length of stay in days Army: Lost Property for in-patients and residential patients admitted into the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre (DMRC) Headley Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Court in each month from October 2008 to November Defence how many rounds of ammunition have been 2009. reported (a) lost and (b) stolen in each of the last 12 months. [319719] Month of Admission Average (mean) length of admission (days) Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally In-patients Residential patients and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. October 2008 38 17 Copthorne Barracks November 2008 30 17 December 2008 28 13 January 2009 17 21 Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for February 2009 25 19 Defence (1) what the operating costs for Copthorne March 2009 23 18 Barracks were in each financial year since 2001; April 2009 17 19 [320764] May 2009 17 16 (2) what estimate he has made of the operating costs June 2009 16 18 for Copthorne Barracks in each of the next three years. July 2009 23 19 [320765] August 2009 19 21 September 2009 25 18 Mr. Kevan Jones: Due to changes in the accounting October 2009 23 19 systems, costs prior to 2003 are not held. Operating November 2009 23 20 costs for Copthorne Barracks since 2003 are shown in Notes: the following table. 1. Patients include Naval Service Personnel, Army Personnel including those from the Gibraltar Regiment, RAF Personnel, Reservists and UK Civilians. These exclude Special Forces and Other Nations Service Personnel. £ million 2. The DPTS is a live system that is constantly being updated. Therefore data are provisional and subject to change. 2003-04 5.024 3. For any patient admitted more than once as an in-patient or residential 2004-05 3.959 patient between October 2008 and November 2009, the length of each admission 2005-06 5.327 has been calculated separately. 4. An in-patient is a patient that has been admitted and allocated a ward bed. A 2006-07 3.545 residential patient is a patient that is on a three week rehabilitation course; they 2007-08 4.030 are not allocated a ward bed, but reside in dormitory style accommodation. 171W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 172W

Gurkhas £ million

2008-09 3.984 2009-10 3.360 Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what the cost of the public purse has been Estimated costs for the next three years are as follows; of the Gurkha Settlement Office in Kathmandu since its inception; [321262] £ million (2) how many applications for settlement initially refused by the Gurkha Settlement Office have been 2010-11 3.558 accepted following re-submission through the Gurkha 2011-12 3.567 Army Ex-Servicemen’s Organisation. [321263] 2012-13 3.654

The figures have been taken from the operating costs Mr. Kevan Jones: The Gurkha Settlement Office was statement and cover property management, utilities and opened in October 2009, using existing accommodation other general infrastructure costs. and facilities within the British Gurkhas Kathmandu Variations are due to changes in the budgetary structure, base. It is staffed by four locally employed civilians. The activity levels for units in Copthorne Barracks and cost of setting up and staffing the office to date is property management projects. £20,000. The Gurkha Settlement Office was not set up to Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for process visa application forms. It offers ex-Gurkhas and Defence what his policy is on the (a) medium-term their dependants, free of charge, information about life and (b) long-term future of Copthorne Barracks; and in the UK, so that they can reach an informed decision if he will make a statement. [320766] about whether they want to apply for settlement in this country. If they decide that they do wish to apply, then the Gurkha Settlement Office provides support by helping Mr. Kevan Jones: There are currently no plans to with the completion of visa application forms and change the use of Copthorne Barracks. through liaison with the Gurkha Records Office to The structure and organisation of the Army and its supply some of the documentation needed to support a supporting infrastructure are kept under constant review. visa application. he Gurkha Settlement Office has received nearly 4,000 visits and around 2,000 ex-Gurkhas and/or Departmental Travel their dependants have registered on the settlement office database for help with their visa application. Visa applications are processed by the UK Border Agency, Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State in their regional centre in New Delhi. Under the new for Defence how much (a) Ministers and (b) staff of immigration rules over 6,600 visa applications have each grade in (i) his Department and (ii) its agencies been received from ex-Gurkhas and their dependants spent on first class travel in the last 12 months. [320393] and over 3,650 visas have been authorised or issued. It is not known how many of these applicants may have Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the sought help from the Gurkha Army Ex-Servicemen’s answer I gave on 19 October 2009, Official Report, Organisation (GAESO) when preparing their application column 1224W, to the hon. Member for Sutton and forms. Cheam (Mr. Burstow) on departmental rail travel. The breakdown of these figures between Ministers Nimrod Aircraft and staff by grade/rank is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Cameron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what long-range maritime cover will be in Future Large Aircraft place following the withdrawal of the Nimrod Mk2s in April 2010 prior to the introduction of the Nimrod Mk4s in 2012. [320925] Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 26 February 2010, Official Report, column 773W, on Future Large Mr. Quentin Davies: I refer the hon. Member to the Aircraft, how much of the £848 million on the A400M answer the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. programme has been spent under each cost category; Friend the Member for Harlow (Bill Rammell), gave on and what sums are recoverable should the programme 1 February 2010, Official Report, column 47W, to the be cancelled. [321183] hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox).

Mr. Quentin Davies: I refer the hon. Member to the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for reply given by my noble Friend the Minister of State, Defence what representations he has received from Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and representatives of (a) the Scottish Fishermen’s Ministry of Defence, Lord Drayson, to the noble Lord, Federation and (b) Oil and Gas UK on the removal Lord Gilbert of Dudley, in another place on 25 January from service of the Nimrod MR2. [321368] 2010, Official Report, House of Lords, column WA285. The Government do not expect the project to be cancelled, Bill Rammell: Ministers have received no representations and we reached agreement in principle on the terms of a from these bodies on the removal from service of the renegotiation on 5 March. Nimrod MR2. 173W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 174W

Royal Irish Regiment Cricket: Finance

Mr. Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Simon: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Defence how many applications for an extension to Media and Sport if he will assess the effect on revenues service beyond the age of 55 with the Home Service of grass-roots cricket clubs of the inclusion of the Battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment were (a) Ashes in the list of group A and B sporting events to be approved and (b) rejected in (i) 2005, (ii) 2006 and (iii) covered on terrestrial television. [320950] 2007. [321173] Mr. Bradshaw: Any decision about which sporting Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 8 March 2010]: The events should be listed will take account of the possible number of approved applications to extend service beyond impact on the finance of sporting bodies, including the age of 55 with the Home Service Battalions of the grassroots community sports, and on affected broadcasters. Royal Irish Regiment in each of the specified years was I will consider this matter fully in light of all the as follows: material and views that will be generated by the consultation process which ends on 19 March. Number of approved applications Culture: Finance 2005 5 2006 15 2007 1— Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 1 Denotes fewer than five but more than zero Media and Sport how much funding has been allocated Note: to his Department’s Rewired Culture event on All figures have been rounded to the nearest five. 27 March 2010; and how much such funding had been Since the disbandment of the Home Service Battalions spent on the latest date for which figures are available. of the Royal Irish Regiment, the number of rejected [319029] applications is no longer held. Margaret Hodge [holding answer 1 March 2010]: The World War II: Memorials Rewired Culture event and a publication on digitisation for the cultural sector have an indicative budget of Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for £15,000. Defence if his Department will take steps to commemorate those who died on HMS Lancastria, on Departmental Databases the 70th anniversary of the sinking of the ship on 17 June 1940. [320863] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what the cost of installing Mr. Kevan Jones: Each year the whole country pauses the Human Resources Information System (Oracle) in in reflection and remembrance of the sacrifice and loss his Department has been to date. [320812] of life for all those who have died as a result of conflict. This includes all of those service personnel and civilians Mr. Sutcliffe: Since October 2008, the cost of installing who perished on RMS Lancastria on 17 June 1940. the Oracle Human Resources Information System in The Ministry of Defence has no current plans to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has been commemorate the 70th anniversary. However, during £544,563.26. the Merchant Navy Day Commemorative Service due to coincide with the anniversary on 17 June 2010 in John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Trinity Gardens, Tower Hill, London, particular attention Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department will be given to mark the loss of the many lives on has spent on external consultants in respect of the board RMS Lancastria. Human Resources Information System (Oracle) to date. [320813]

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr. Sutcliffe: Since October 2008, my Department has spent £294,849.19 on external consultants in respect Bletchley Park Museum of the Human Resources Information Systems (Oracle).

Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Departmental Location Media and Sport how much funding was allocated to the Bletchley Park Museum in each of the last 10 years. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, [318075] Media and Sport how much his Department spent on the relocation of staff from posts in (a) Essex and (b) Margaret Hodge: The Bletchley Park Trust received a Castle Point constituency in each of the last five years. development grant of £460,500 from the Heritage Lottery [321433] Fund in 2009, primarily to support the development and improvement of the Bletchley Park Museum. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media Additionally the Bletchley site has benefited from an and Sport has not spent any money on the relocation of English Heritage grant of £330,000 in 2008 towards staff from posts in either Essex or Castle Point in the repairs to the roof of the main mansion building. last five years. 175W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 176W

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Margaret Hodge: All travel by Ministers and staff is undertaken in accordance with the Ministerial Code Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State and the Civil Service Management Code. for Culture, Media and Sport how many full-time The Department’s system does not analyse total travel equivalent staff of each grade are employed by his expenditure by grade of staff or class of travel. To Department to assist special advisers. [321132] obtain this information would incur disproportionate cost. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media The only information on first class travel which is and Sport employs one full-time equivalent at civil available and which is for travel pre-booked through the service grade executive officer to assist two special Department’s contracted travel agents only, is set out in advisers. the following table.

Departmental Public Consultation £ Financial year Ministers Staff Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department 2009-10 8,490 24,410 2 spent on (a) written consultation, (b) consultation 2008-09 7,340 46,030 1 To January 2010. road shows and (c) focus groups in each of the last 2 Full year costs. three years. [319762]

Mr. Sutcliffe: Information for departmental spend on Foreign Companies: Finance written consultations specifically is not held centrally. There have been no consultation road shows in the last Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, three years. For the last three full financial years, the Media and Sport how much funding his Department focus groups spend for the Department is in the table. has provided to organisations or companies registered All consultations are published on the Department’s abroad in each of the last five years. [318625] website: www.culture.gov.uk Margaret Hodge [holding answer 25 February 2010]: The Department paid subscriptions to international Financial year Departmental focus group spend (£) bodies in each of the last five years as set out in the 2006-07 24,400 following table. 2007-08 80,105 2008-09 30,623 £ 2009- Other research commissioned is likely to have included 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 101 a focus group element but it is not possible to determine European 162,351 177,951 146,721 212,678 239,101 the costs of these elements. Audiovisual Observatory Departmental Public Expenditure United Nations: World Tourism — — — 315,116 113,213 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Organisation Media and Sport how many cases of financial World Heritage 128,443 107,964 125,035 129,159 140,654 irregularities have been recorded in his Department in Fund World Anti- 343,445 358,596 338,757 378,312 475,470 each of the last five financial years; and if he will make Doping a statement. [320896] Association Council of Mr. Sutcliffe: The Treasury guidance, ‘Managing Public Europe: Enlarged Money’ defines irregularities as spend outside legal Partial — — 55,533 97,893 — Agreement on powers, parliamentary consents, or Treasury delegations. Sport On that basis, the Department has reported financial 634,239 644,511 666,046 1,133,158 968,438 irregularities over the last five years as follows: 1 Forecast Financial year Number of cases Details of other spend with overseas trade suppliers 2004-05 0 can only be identified at disproportionate cost. 2005-06 0 2006-07 0 2007-08 1 Illegal Immigrants 2008-09 0 Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Departmental Travel Media and Sport how many staff his Department and its agencies have appointed who were later discovered Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320441] for Culture, Media and Sport how much (a) Ministers and (b) staff of each grade in (i) his Department and Margaret Hodge: The Department for Culture, Media (ii) its agency spent on first class travel in the last 12 and Sport and The Royal Parks Agency have found no months. [320397] illegal immigrants working for them since 2005. 177W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 178W

National Skills Academy for Creative and Cultural 1997 2008 Skills: Thurrock London borough of Bexley 15 13 Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Greater London 405 388 Culture, Media and Sport what recent progress has been made on establishing cross-cutting procedures to Swimming: Concessions enable progress to be made on the (a) funding for and (b) construction on a site shared with the Royal Opera Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for House campus, Thurrock of the Creative and Cultural Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer to Skills Academy. [320598] the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford of 1 March 2010, Official Report, column 658, what Margaret Hodge [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The discussions he has had with the Minister for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has worked Olympics on the take up of free swimming initiatives closely with the Department for Business, Innovation by Bexley borough council; and on what date Bexley and Skills and the Department for Communities and borough council commenced offering free swimming. Local Government to progress the National Skills Academy [320737] for Creative and Cultural Skills (NSA) and the Royal Opera House Production Park. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Secretary of State has had no In November 2009, the Learning and Skills Council specific discussions with the Minister for the Olympics committed £5 million to the NSA. Discussions have on the take up of the free swimming initiative by Bexley taken place with the Homes and Communities Agency borough council. on funding. Bexley borough council commenced offering free Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation swimming in April 2009. handed over the Royal Opera House Production Workshops to the Royal Opera House on the 2 March 2010. The Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, completion date for this project is November 2010 and Media and Sport (1) what representations he has it will house the creation of costumes and scenery. received from (a) members of the public and (b) local authorities on charging for swimming floats by leisure Public Houses: Greater London centres which participate in the Government’s free swimming initiative; [320891] Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether funding provided under his Culture, Media and Sport how many public houses Department’s free swimming initiative is intended to there were in (a) the London borough of Bexley and cover the use of (a) swimming floats and (b) other (b) Greater London in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2009. [321058] swimming aids. [320892]

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has collated annual statistics from licensing and Sport has received no representations from members authorities relating to alcohol, entertainment and late of the public or local authorities on charging for swimming night refreshment since the implementation of the Licensing floats by leisure centres which participate in the Act 2003. This does not identify the number of pubs, as Government’s free swimming initiative. there is no official or established definition of a pub The Government provide revenue funding to local which distinguishes it from other premises which sell authorities who are responsible for the delivery of the alcohol. Free Swimming Programme. The scheme enables people Prior to the implementation of the Licensing Act 2003, aged 60 and over and young people aged 16 and under data were collected by petty sessional division (magistrates to swim for free. court areas) on a triennial basis. As at 30 June 1998, there were 135 public houses in Bexley and 8,844 public Theatre: Young People houses in London. This definition of a public house includes hotels and premises (other than those licensed Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for under part IV of the Licensing Act 1964) having a Culture, Media and Sport how much funding was justices’ on-licence. provided to each theatre participating in the Free Theatre Tickets scheme; and how many tickets each Public Libraries: Greater London theatre agreed to make available. [317187]

Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Margaret Hodge: Theatres wishing to participate in Culture, Media and Sport how many public libraries the “A Night Less Ordinary” scheme were invited to there were in (a) the London borough of Bexley and apply for one of four types of grants by Arts Council (b) Greater London in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2009. [321059] England. According to the type of venue, the location and the Margaret Hodge: Public library statistics are published number of tickets each venue expected to be able to give annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance away, participants received either:- and Accountancy (CIPFA). Data for 2009 are not yet available. The total number of service points (including a multi award of £300 000 for one large West End consortium; mobile libraries) in Bexley and Greater London open a premium award of £50,000 for larger ticket allocations; 10 or more hours per week at 31 March 1997 and 2008 a standard award of £30,000 for regular ticket allocations; are in the table. a flexible award of £10,000 for smaller ticket allocations. 179W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 180W

Arts Council England has supplied a full list of Name of venue Region Band participating theatres by award category in the following table. Sheffield Theatres Trust (Crucible Yorkshire Standard Theatre, Lyceum Theatre, Studio Theatre) Name of venue Region Band Watford Palace Theatre East Flexible London Off West End Consortium London Multi award Mercury Theatre East Flexible (Almeida, Battersea Arts Centre, Bush The Hat Factory, Luton East Flexible Theatre, Donmar Warehouse, Greenwich Theatre, Hampstead The Junction East Flexible Theatre, Lyric Hammersmith, Royal South Holland Centre East Midlands Flexible Court, Soho Theatre, Tricycle Theatre, Derby Live (Assembly Rooms and East Midlands Flexible Theatre Royal Stratford East, Young Guildhall Theatre) Vic) Blue Elephant Theatre London Flexible Barbican Centre London Premium Half Moon London Flexible Rose Theatre, Kingston London Premium Tara London Flexible National Theatre London Premium artsdepot London Flexible The Marlow Theatre, Canterbury South East Premium Gate Theatre London Flexible Chichester Festival Theatre South East Premium Millfield Arts Centre London Flexible HQ Theatres Ltd (Wycombe Swan, National Premium High Wycombe; Beck Theatre, Hayes; The Albany London Flexible Southend Theatres; The Wyvern Harrow Arts Centre London Flexible Theatre, Swindon; White Rock Orange Tree Theatre London Flexible Theatre, Hastings) Roundhouse London Flexible The Works (Dance and Theatre South West Premium Cornwall) (Carn to Cove, representing Rich Mix London Flexible 62 village halls; The Acorn Arts Darlington Civic Theatre/Darlington North East Flexible Centre, Penzance; Sterts Theatre, Arts Centre Upton Cross; The Keay Theatre, St. The Customs House North East Flexible Austell; Helford Theatre, Truro) Forum twenty eight North West Flexible Theatre Royal, Plymouth South West Premium Birmingham Hippodrome West Midlands Premium The Met Arts Centre North West Flexible Birmingham Rep West Midlands Premium Liverpool Everyman Playhouse North West Flexible Malvern Theatres West Midlands Premium Library Theatre Company North West Flexible Royal Shakespeare Company West Midlands Premium Marine Hall and Thornton Little North West Flexible Theatre West Yorkshire Playhouse Yorkshire Premium Highlights Rural Touring Scheme North West/ Flexible York Royal Theatre Yorkshire Premium North East Royal and Derngate, Northampton East Midlands Standard Farnham Maltings South East Flexible Nottingham Playhouse East Midlands Standard Hampshire Small Scale Venues South East Flexible The Pleasance Theatre Islington London Standard (Ashcroft Arts Centre, Farnham; Hackney Empire Studio Theatre London Standard Forest Arts Centre, New Milton; Havant Arts Centre; West End Centre, Trafalgar Studios London Standard Aldershot; Winchester Discovery Areola Theatre Production Company London Standard Centre) Polka Theatre London Standard The Live Theatre Winchester Trust South East Flexible (Theatre Royal Winchester, New The Churchill, Bromley London Standard Theatre Royal, Portsmouth) Sunderland Empire North East Standard Assembly Hall Theatre South East Flexible North East Newcastle North East Standard South Hill Park Arts Centre South East Flexible Theatres(Theatre Royal, Northern Stage, Live Theatre) PANeK Consortia (PANeK; South East Flexible Gulbenkian Theatre, Canterbury; Contact North West Standard Theatre Royal Margate; Trinity West Cumbria Arts Partnership North West Standard Theatre, Tunbridge Wells, South Hill (Theatre by the Lake, Keswick; Park Arts Centre) Rosehill Theatre, Whitehaven; Merlin Theatre South West Flexible Kirkgate Centre, Cockermouth; The Wave, Maryport; Arts Out West-West Arc Theatre Trowbridge South West Flexible Cumbria rural touring scheme) Culture Swindon (Swindon Arts South West Flexible Royal Exchange Theatre North West Standard Centre, Artsmad) Blackpool Grand North West Standard Air in G South West Flexible Dukes Playhouse North West Standard Oakengates Theatre @ The Palace, West Midlands Flexible Telford Oldham Coliseum Theatre North West Standard Breaking Boundaries (Ludlow West Midlands Flexible The Octagon Theatre, Bolton North West Standard Assembly Rooms, Arts Alive Touring The Hawth Theatre South East Standard Scheme) Milton Keynes Theatre South East Standard The Drum West Midlands Flexible Nuffield Theatre South East Standard Playbox Theatre West Midlands Flexible Oxford Playhouse South East Standard Courtyard Centre for the Arts West Midlands Flexible Exeter Northcott Theatre South West Standard Lawrence Batley Theatre/LBT Yorkshire Flexible Lighthouse, Poole’s Centre for the Arts South West Standard The Civic Yorkshire Flexible Belgrade Theatre West Midlands Standard Lamproom Theatre, Barnsley Yorkshire Flexible New Vic Theatre West Midlands Standard Square Chapel Centre for the Arts Yorkshire Flexible Regent Theatre, Stoke-On-Trent West Midlands Standard National Rural Touring Forum Yorkshire Flexible Warwick Arts Centre West Midlands Standard The Plowright Theatre Yorkshire Flexible Hull Truck Theatre Yorkshire Standard The Carriage Works Yorkshire Flexible 181W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 182W

The “A Night Less Ordinary” scheme plans to make Hoard of Anglo Saxon Gold, how these revitalized available over 600,000 tickets over two years. Arts Council museums can encourage tourism. England cannot provide the number of tickets individual Most recently, following on the success of Liverpool theatres have agreed to make available for reasons of European Capital of Culture, the DCMS launched the commercial confidentiality. “UK City of Culture” competition, challenging bidding cities to develop a substantial programme of cultural Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for activity which leads to a demonstrable step-change in Culture, Media and Sport how many young people their area, and a lasting legacy. Fourteen cities submitted have used theatre tickets provided under the A Night initial bids, with Birmingham, Derry/Londonderry, Less Ordinary scheme since the scheme was Norwich and Sheffield succeeding in being shortlisted. introduced. [320661] The winning city will be announced in the summer. In addition, whilst funding decisions are for local Margaret Hodge: In the first nine months of the ‘A authorities themselves, to make, DCMS supports the Night Less Ordinary’ Scheme 122,818 tickets were given Charter for Placemaking and Destination Management, away to young people under 26. There is no central developed through the “Partners for England” initiative, monitoring of the scheme, but we are undertaking a which provides guidance to local authorities on promoting, comprehensive evaluation which will include assessment developing and measuring tourism, and on working of how many young people took advantage of the with the industry and public sector partners. Local scheme and the potential impact on long-term attendance. authority support and engagement will also be addressed in the England tourism strategy, currently being developed Tourism by VisitEngland.

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what incentives his Culture, Media and Sport whether his Department has Department provides to encourage local authorities to made an investigation into the reasons for the closure support local tourism initiatives. [319829] of tourist and visitor centres in 2008-09; and if he will make a statement. [320975] Margaret Hodge [holding answer 1 March 2010]: Responsibility for tourism in the English regions was Margaret Hodge: The Department for Culture, Media given to the Regional Development Agencies (RDAs) and Sport has discussed the issue of Tourist Information in 2003. The RDAs have developed regional tourism Centre (TICs) closures with VisitEngland, and the Regional strategies, taking into account the needs of, and Development Agencies. opportunities for, localities and destinations within their VisitEngland are undertaking some work to establish regions. how many TICs are closing and what local authorities The RDAs have invested substantially in tourism are doing to provide appropriate information to tourists development and promotion investing some £60 million in their area. in 2008-09. Local authorities are also important partners in supporting the visitor economy. The Local Government Association is represented on the SOLICITOR-GENERAL Minister’s Tourism Advisory Council and the DCMS Departmental Disabled Staff engages regularly with local bodies such as the British Resorts and Destinations Association and Destination Mr. Harper: To ask the Solicitor-General how many Performance UK. and what proportion of staff of the Law Officers’ Alongside the marketing campaigns conducted by Departments are disabled; and what the average salary VisitBritain and VisitEngland, a number of DCMS in the Law Officers’ Departments is of (a) full-time programmes encourage and enable local authorities to disabled staff, (b) full-time non-disabled staff, (c) develop and promote their tourism offer. DCMS sponsors part-time disabled staff and (d) part-time non-disabled “Sea Change”, which has allocated £38 million to 32 seaside staff. [317901] resorts, to support projects for cultural regeneration and the visitor economy.The “Renaissance in the Regions” The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments programme is a ground-breaking initiative to transform routinely provide information on the numbers of disabled England’s regional museums. Renaissance has seen an staff and average salaries to the Office of National investment of £242.8 million from 2002-09 and it is Statistics (ONS) who periodically publish this data on anticipated that nearly £300 million will have been behalf of the whole civil service. The latest available invested by March 2011. We have seen recently, in the figures were published on 20 January 2010. Specific long queues at Bristol for the Banksy temporary exhibition information relating to the Law Officers’ Departments and at Birmingham for the display of the Staffordshire is outlined in the following tables.

Employment by Department and disability status1 All employees with Disabled employees as Attorney-General’s Not declared or known disability percentage of known Departments Disabled Non-disabled non-response Total status disability status

CPS 330 6,780 1,580 8,690 7,110 4.7 HMCPSI — 30 10 50 30 — AGO — 30 20 40 30 — 183W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 184W

Employment by Department and disability status1 All employees with Disabled employees as Attorney-General’s Not declared or known disability percentage of known Departments Disabled Non-disabled non-response Total status disability status

RCPO2 10 180 160 350 200 6.6 SFO 20 240 60 320 260 6.6 TSol 40 700 80 830 750 5.9 NFA3 —20205020— 1 For each column the numbers are rounded to the nearest 10, and numbers less than five are not shown to protect staff confidentiality. The total column will therefore not necessarily equal the sum of the preceding three columns. 2 HMRCPO have since merged with CPS in January 2010. 3 Data for NFA has not been collated or published by ONS. The data provided is based on the latest available data.

Median earnings by Department and disability status1 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Attorney- Full-time Part-time General’s non- Full-time non- Part-time World Water Day Departments disabled disabled disabled disabled

CPS 27,120 29,520 25,080 25,080 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for HMCPSI 47,540 — — — International Development what plans his Department AGO 24,440 — — — has to mark World Water Day. [320957] HMRCPC2 28,250 31,490 28,120 — SFO 29,200 26,220 26,970 — Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International TSol 46,160 26,480 58,270 — Development (DFID) will mark this important occasion NFA3 48,840 — — — by hosting an event shortly before World Water Day. 1 Salaries in this table represent the full-time equivalent salaries of employees During the event we will hear what action our stakeholders rounded to the nearest 10. Earnings are not shown where there are less than five are taking to address the millennium development goals members to protect staff confidentiality. for water and sanitation, and how best DFID can 2 HMRCPO have since merged with CPS in January 2010. 3 Data for NFA has not been collated or published by ONS. The data provided continue to support their efforts. DFID will also seek to is based on the latest available data. raise awareness of the important of access to water and sanitation for poverty reduction through our website, newsletters and the release of a new publication, reporting Trade Unions on the work we have done to help poor people get access to water and sanitation. Mr. Syms: To ask the Solicitor-General how many days staff of the Law Officers’ Departments spent on trade union activity in the latest year for which figures HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION are available; and what recent estimate she has made of the annual cost to the public purse of such activity. Buildings [320668] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons The Solicitor-General: No days were spent by staff Commission what major refurbishments have been members of the Attorney-General’s Office or the National carried out on the House of Commons Estate in the Fraud Authority on trade union activity in 2008-09. last five years; and what the cost was of each such HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate has a refurbishment. [320557] Whitley council which meets quarterly and is attended by FDA and PCS representatives. Where it is Nick Harvey: Major refurbishments carried out in necessary for union representatives to devote time to the last five years, taken to mean construction projects specific activities on personal cases, this is done by to improve existing facilities on the Commons part of agreement with their line manager. No formal record is the parliamentary estate where expenditure has been maintained. more than £1 million during the period 1 April 2004 to 31 March 2009, have been shown in the following table. The Serious Fraud Office does not record details on the number of days spent by staff engaged on trade Refurbishment Cost in five-year period (£) union activities. Press Gallery refurbishment of offices and 8,178,902 Information on the Treasury Solicitors Department catering (TSol) and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is 7 Millbank cooling 2,730,004 contained in the following table. Install data wiring and refurbish—Phase 2,634,328 10B Palace of Westminster Estimate of the number of Install data wiring and refurbish—Phase 2,025,505 days spent on union activities 10A Palace of Westminster Department 2008-09 Estimated cost1 (£) Relocate mechanical and electrical services 1,593,201 and underpin south stairs TSol 354 37,212 Boiler, chiller and summer boiler 2002-05 1,582,190 CPS2 4,068 535,915 Install air conditioning and restore 1,552,823 1 These are estimates based on the average pay grade of staff involved in trade committee rooms 11, 12, 13 union activity. Bellamy’s Cafeteria modernisation 1,410,510 2 The CPS data includes figures for HMRCPO which merged with CPS in January 2010. 126 days were spent on trade union activities by HMRCPO Mechanical and electrical modernisation— 1,331,382 officials at an estimated cost of £18,791. Palace of Westminster 185W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 186W

Nurseries rebates and audit adjustments and therefore may differ from Central Office of Information official turnover Mr. Chope: To ask the hon. Member for North figures. Devon, representing the House of Commons The advertising campaign is supported by activity in Commission what advice the House of Commons the national health service, for example, the distribution Commission has sought from the Finance and Services of information materials about the health harms associated Committee on the cost of replacing Bellamy’s Bar, the with alcohol consumption and practical advice for people Astor Suite and Bellamy’s Clubroom with a day considering drinking less. However, figures on expenditure nursery. [321400] within the NHS are not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Nick Harvey: The Commission considered it important to have the planned nursery facility operating early in the new Parliament, before new Members had made Aortic Aneurysm: Screening other child care arrangements. This is a challenging timescale, given the need for listed building consent and Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Health consent for change of use, the time required to make the if he will assess the merits of bringing forward the premises ready and the requirement to pass the Ofsted timetable for full implementation of the NHS inspection and be registered with Ofsted. In view of the abdominal aortic screening programme, with particular time constraints, the Commission decided it was not reference to (a) feasibility, (b) cost and (c) the likely feasible to seek advice from the Finance and Services effects on mortality rates of the early implementation Committee. of that programme. [320805]

Mr. Chope: To ask the hon. Member for North Ann Keen: Immediate implementation was considered Devon, representing the House of Commons as an option and a full analysis of the cost and mortality Commission if the House of Commons Commission rates of this approach was made and compared to the will place in the Library a copy of the full business case analysis of phased implementation. However in common for the replacement of Bellamy’s Bar, the Astor Suite with all other national screening programmes, this and Bellamy’s Clubroom by a day nursery. [321401] programme needs to have a managed national roll out Nick Harvey: The full business case is being prepared to realise the benefits of the combination of screening for submission to the Clerk of the House. Such documents to safe and effective standards. Early implementation necessarily contain commercially confidential information, would not have allowed sufficient time to reorganise the disclosure of which would damage the commercial treatment services in order to minimise mortality and interests of the House. morbidity in patients having planned surgery.

Autism: Drugs HEALTH Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Alcoholic Drinks: Health Education Health (1) what guidance his Department has issued to clinicians on the use of chlorpromazine hydrochloride Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for for the treatment of patients diagnosed with autism; Health how much his Department spent on marketing [321393] and advertising to encourage the responsible consumption of alcohol in each of the last five years. (2) what research his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) reviewed on the potential risks [321157] to health and other side effects of chlorpromazine Phil Hope: The alcohol harm reduction campaign hydrochloride prescribed for the treatment of people began in 2006-07 and was run in conjunction with the diagnosed with autism in the last 10 years; and if he Home Office until the end of financial year 2008-09. will make a statement; [321394] The table shows the Department’s advertising expenditure (3) how many fatalities of people diagnosed with in these years and does not include spending undertaken autism associated with the use of chlorpromazine by the Home Office. hydrochloride and other anti-psychotic medication The figure for the current financial year (2009-10) is there were in the last 10 years.; [321395] provisional until records are fully audited at the end of (4) what guidelines his Department has issued on the financial year. medication prescribed for the treatment of people diagnosed with autism; and what guidelines are in force Financial year Expenditure (£) on the use of anti-psychotic medication for people with 2005-06 0 autistic spectrum disorders. [321396] 2006-07 559,883 2007-08 612,792 Mr. Mike O’Brien: Since the marketing of 2008-09 4,771,921 chlorpromazine, the Medicines and Healthcare products 2009-10 3,584,733 Regulatory Agency (MHRA) in conjunction with its independent scientific advisory committee, the Commission The figures do not include recruitment or classified on Human Medicines (CHM) and its predecessors, has advertising costs. Advertising spend is defined as covering kept the safety of chlorpromazine and other anti-psychotics only media spend (inclusive of agency commissions but under close review. Prescribing guidance has been updated excluding production costs, Central Office of Information to reflect new safety data and the MHRA has also commission and VAT). All figures exclude advertising informed health care professionals and patients of the 187W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 188W updated prescribing guidance through the regular drug Departmental Paper safety bulletin, Drug Safety Update”, and information posted on the MHRA website. Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Reports of suspected adverse drug reactions (ADRs) Health what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper are collected by the MHRA and CHM through the and (ii) paper products his Department uses; and what Yellow Card Scheme. During the time period 1 January his Department’s policy is on the procurement of those 2000 to 31 December 2009, the MHRA has received a materials. [320029] total of 18 spontaneous suspected fatal ADR reports associated with chlorpromazine in the United Kingdom. Phil Hope: Paper purchased by the Department is None of these cases describe an indication for use of purchased through the Department’s office supplies autism or have provided a medical history of the patient contract with Office Depot or through the Central having autism. During this 10 year period a total of Office of Information (COI) for print and published 39 fatal reports for all anti-psychotics listed the indication material. The majority of general printing and copying as ’’learning disorder/disability’ or ‘behavioural disorder’ paper used by the Department is Evolve Everyday or or had a medical history of autism, asperger’s disorder, Niceday, 80 gsm, in A3/4/5 sizes. Other paper purchased learning disability or behavioural disorder. is from Office Depot or Niceday Environmental (FSC) The use of medication such as anti-psychotic drugs range. for behaviour problems is an issue that will most likely All of the Department’s print and publishing is through be addressed in the clinical guidelines for autistic spectrum COI and paper is purchased by them from companies disorders in adults and children currently being developed on the COI EU tendered Framework. Various papers by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence are purchased with 50-100 per cent. recycled content. (NICE). NICE have not yet indicated when it expects On rare occasions when viable recycled products are not this guidance to be issued to be available to the national available other FSC or PEFC virgin fibre products may health service. be purchased. Paper products purchased by the Department’s cleaning Autism: Health Services contractor, Resource FM, and consist of toilet paper and paper towels. All toilet paper is Scott Performance Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if 4476, which has a 100 per cent. recycled content. All he will ensure that the national autism strategy paper towels purchased by the Department are Wypall provides guidance on reasonable adjustments that Centre Feed, which has 100 per cent. recycled content. public service providers can make to support adults Swantex paper napkins are provided by the Department’s with autism. [320662] catering contractor, Quadrant Catering Ltd. These are Phil Hope: The Government’s strategy for adults either 100 per cent, recycled content or 10-40 per cent. with autism in England, ‘Fulfilling and Rewarding Lives’, part recycled and dyed using food dyes. was published on 3 March 2010 and is available at: The Department is committed to only purchasing www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ paper and paper products that conform to the Government’s PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_113369 “Buy Sustainable—Quick Wins”minimum environmental Copies have been placed in the Library. specifications. The strategy reiterates the requirement under the General Practitioners: Bexley Disability Discrimination Act 2005 for services to make reasonable adjustments for disabled adults—this includes adults with autism. Within the strategy we have committed Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for to delivering guidance to indicate the kinds of adjustments Health how many people registered with general that might be usefully made, from physical adjustments practitioners in the London borough of Bexley in each to premises to improving the ways those delivering year since 1997. [321061] services communicate with adults with autism. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not available in the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has also format requested. Following is the number of general underlined its commitment to making adjustments for practitioner (GP)-registered patients in Bexley Care adults with autism using Jobcentre Plus services. As Trust. well as making any required reasonable adjustments—such as making use of the most suitable environment or Bexley Care Trust Number premises for conducting work focused interviews DWP will also ensure Jobcentre Plus advisers are aware of 2002 210,757 both the need to make suitable adjustments for adults 2003 214,146 with autism and of the kinds of adjustments that may 2004 221,325 be beneficial. 2005 222,192 2006 223,474 Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers 2007 222,019 2008 223,043 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Notes: for Health how many full-time equivalent staff of each 1. It is not possible to provide comparable work force data for this organisation prior to the formation of the primary care trust in 2002. grade are employed by his Department to assist special 2. Figures provided show numbers of patients registered with a GP as at 30 advisers. [321137] September each year. Data on patient transactions or newly registered patients is not available on the annual GP Census. Source: Phil Hope: Two full-time executive officers assist the The NHS Information Centre for health and social care General and Personal special advisers. Medical Services Statistics 189W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 190W

General Practitioners: Fees and Charges Hospitals: Infectious Diseases

Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received on the Health how many cases of infection per (a) 1,000 levels of charges made by some general practitioners to hospital bed days and (b) 1,000 patients admitted to their patients for a letter in support of applications for hospital there were in 2005. [320828] disability living allowance and attendance allowance; if he will bring forward proposals to reimburse people Ann Keen: Information on all infections is not collected who pay such charges; and if he will make a statement. centrally. However, data on the main infections covered [321217] by mandatory surveillance, methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) blood stream infections Mr. Mike O’Brien: None. and Clostridium difficile infections, are given in the Under the terms of their contract with their primary following table. care trust, general practitioners (GPs) are required to issue certain medical certificates, free of charge, which Clostridium difficile are reasonably required in support of claims for benefits MRSA1 (65 years or older)2 and allowances—such as disability living allowance and Number of cases 7,096 51,829 attendance allowance. Where patients choose to provide reported medical information in support of their claim, that is Cases of infection per 0.18 2.15 not a mandatory part of the application, the GP may 1,000 bed days choose to charge a fee. Cases of infection per 0.86 21.22 1,000 admissions If further medical evidence is required by the Department 1 Data on MRSA cases, bed days (KH03) and admissions are for the 2005-06 of Work and Pensions, they will contact the patient’s financial year. GP and pay any fees. 2 Based on 2005 calendar year. Prior to April 2007, C. difficile data were only collected for those aged 65 and over. Bed days are from Hospital Episode Statistics. The number of C. difficile cases and rates were based on data from Health Services: Guernsey 171 of 173 trusts, as complete data are not available for two trusts. Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department collects on Health what estimate he has made of the cost to the numbers of (a) hospital-acquired infections and (b) NHS of (a) emergency and (b) non-emergency patients entering hospitals with infections. [320829] treatment of people from Guernsey in each of the last five years. [321261] Ann Keen: The mandatory surveillance system collects Gillian Merron: I refer the hon. Member to the written numbers of reports for the following pathogens that are answer I gave him on 8 March 2010, Official Report, usually considered healthcare associated infections and columns 58-60W. surgical procedures: methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) bacteraemias; Home Care Services: Finance Clostridium difficile infections (CDI); glycopeptide-resistant enterococci (GRE) bacteraemias; and Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health selected orthopaedic surgical site infections (SSIs). pursuant to the answer of 8 December 2009, Official It is not easy to ascertain where an infection has been Report, column 296W, on social services: finance, acquired and these datasets include both infections which of his Department’s communication and acquired in hospital and in other settings. However, the advertising budgets will be affected by the changes to MRSA and CDI system now allow for indirect planned expenditure to cover funding of the provisions identification of cases that may have been acquired of the Personal Care at Home Bill; and how much will within the reporting trust by calculating the elapsed be taken from each budget. [318888] time between a patient’s admission date and specimen date. Phil Hope: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark While MRSA bacteraemias and CDI present on Simmonds) on 8 December 2009, Official Report, column admission can be identified, a proportion of these are 296W. likely to be associated with a previous hospital admission.

Hospitals: Consultants Maternity Services

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department provides to Health how many newborn babies experienced NHS hospitals on daily hours of consultant cover in methadone withdrawal in the latest period for which (a) maternity units, (b) paediatric assessment units figures are available; and what treatments are used in and (c) accident and emergency departments. [321397] the NHS for the symptoms of withdrawal. [321304]

Ann Keen: The medical Royal Colleges advise on Gillian Merron: Data on the number of babies born clinical standards. It is for local national health service with neonatal withdrawal symptoms from maternal use organisations determine the medical skill mix they require of illicit or therapeutic drugs are collected, but are not to provide safe and high quality clinical care. broken down by type of drug. 191W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 192W

In 2008-09, 1,233 babies were born with neonatal Mid Staffordshire General Hospitals NHS Trust withdrawal symptoms from maternal use of illicit or 1 therapeutic drugs. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Department and the National Treatment Agency if he will place in the Library a copy of each item of for Substance Misuse have issued guidance to the national correspondence received by his Department from the health service to ensure that mothers in this situation Healthcare Commission on the Mid Staffordshire are supported and monitored, and the health needs of General Hospitals NHS Trust in (a) 2006, (b) 2007 the baby assessed to minimise any health risks. and (c) 2008. [320782] Additionally, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence is in the process of producing clinical Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information could be obtained guidelines for pregnant women with complex social only at disproportionate cost. factors, including substance misuse problems. Source: Midwives: Manpower 1 Hospital Episode Statistics, The Information Centre for health and social care Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many full-time equivalent midwives were working in the NHS organisation in each year since 1997; and Medical Treatments Abroad how many were working in each NHS organisation in each of the last three years. [320920]

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Ann Keen: The following table shows the number of for Health (1) how many (a) E112 authorisations and full-time equivalent midwives employed within the national (b) Article 49 authorisations for each type of health service in each year since 1997 and a separate treatment there have been in each year since 1998; table outlining the number of midwives working in each [319931] NHS organisation in each of the last three years has (2) how many patients have been referred abroad for been placed in the Library. each treatment in respect of which there were no NHS hospital and community health services: Qualified midwifery staff in facilities in the UK in each year since 1998. [319934] England as at 30 September each specified year Registered midwives Full-time equivalent

Gillian Merron: A patient may be issued an E112 1997 18,053 form and referred to another member state of the 1998 18,168 European Economic Area or Switzerland for treatment, 1999 17,876 if they would experience undue delay for that same 2000 17,662 treatment under their state health care system. 2001 18,048 Alternatively, a patient may choose to access health 2002 18,119 care services in another member state under article 49 2003 18,444 (now article 56 of the Lisbon treaty). The responsibility 2004 18,854 for authorising reimbursement of health costs under 2005 18,949 article 49 is devolved to primary care trusts, and there is 2006 18,862 no central collection of the data. 2007 19,298 The following table shows the number of E112s, 2008 19,639 and the number of those that relate to maternity care, Source: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce issued by the United Kingdom in the years 1998-2009 Census member states have agreed that it is appropriate to issue the form E112 on a discretionary basis to expectant Myelodysplastic Syndromes mothers who wish to give birth in another member state, regardless of capacity. Data relating to each specific Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for treatment are held centrally, however to process the Health how many patient deaths have been caused by data and present it by treatment type would incur myelodysplastic syndromes in each year for which disproportionate cost. figures are available. [321379]

Number of E112s relating Calendar year E112s issued to maternity care Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. The information requested falls within the responsibility 1998 891 304 of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority 1999 994 291 to reply. 2000 1,289 336 2001 1,266 369 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: 2002 1,393 368 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 2003 1,287 359 have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many 2004 503 141 patient deaths have be caused by myelodysplastic syndromes in each year for which figures are available. (321379) 2005 360 128 2006 412 273 The table attached provides the number of deaths where the underlying cause was myelodysplastic syndromes in England and 2007 534 402 Wales, for the years 2001 to 2008 (the latest year available). 2008 1,471 1,027 2009 1,379 1,228 It is not possible from the information given at death registration to state whether the deceased was a patient at the time of death. 193W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 194W

Individual causes of death are coded by ONS using the Mr. Mike O’Brien: A significant part of the Department’s International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). assessment of national health service foundation trust Myelodyplastic syndromes are given a specific ICD-10 code applications is the consideration of the quality of care (D46), however equivalent information is not readily available for provided at each organisation. This review of quality years before 2001, when an earlier version of the International Classification of Diseases was in use. includes an explicit consideration of hospital standardised mortality rates, alongside other care quality indicators Table 1. Number of deaths where the underlying cause was myelodysplastic syndromes, England and Wales, 2001-081, 2, 3 such as patient surveys and safety indicators. Deaths (persons) Since April 2009 the Department’s assessment has also included the consideration of each application by 2001 995 the NHS Medical Director. His satisfaction with an 2002 1,010 organisation is required prior to Ministers considering 2003 1,010 whether to support a foundation trust application. The 2004 937 NHS Medical Director considers a range of quality 2005 917 related intelligence, including hospital standardised mortality 2006 916 rates, in forming his view on each trust. 2007 963 2008 963 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, NHS: Assets Tenth Revision (ICD-10) code D46 ‘Myelodysplastic syndromes’. 2 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the total cost Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for of backlog maintenance in respect of (a) high, (b) Health how many individual funding requests for the significant, (c) moderate and (d) low risk in (i) drug azacitidine were received by primary care trusts in England and (ii) each NHS organisation according to the last 12 months; and how many were (a) accepted data from Estates Return Information Collection and (b) rejected. [321380] returns in each financial year from 1997-98 to 2008-09. [318225] Mr. Mike O’Brien: This information is not collected centrally. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information is not available NHS Foundation Trusts in the format requested. Levels of backlog maintenance categorised by risk Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health were not collected prior to 2004-05. The information what account his Department takes of mortality rates relating to each national health service organisation at NHS trusts when deciding whether trusts’ from 2004-05 onwards has been placed in the Library. applications for foundation status can proceed to Total cost of backlog maintenance cost for England, Monitor. [320780] categorised by risk, is in the table.

£ million Backlog maintenance Risk level 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

High risk 358.2 329.9 307.6 309.7 267.9 Significant risk 778.2 982.2 943.4 1,119.8 1,175.7 Moderate risk 902.1 1,219.4 1,231.5 1,394.6 1,452.8 Low risk 1,103.2 1,152.1 1,257.4 1,219.5 1,188.3 Total 3,141.7 3,683.6 3,739.9 4,043.6 4,084.7

The Department collects data on backlog maintenance expects the PCT Procurement Guide to be published. annually from NHS trusts through its estates return [320247] information collection. This data has not been amended centrally and its accuracy is the responsibility of the Mr. Mike O’Brien: The revised “PCT Procurement contributing NHS organisations. Guide” is due to be published before the end of March. NHS organisations are locally responsible for the provision and maintenance of their facilities. This includes NHS: Public Relations planning and investment to reduce backlog maintenance. The Government have introduced 100 new hospital Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Health schemes which have increased capacity and provided what payments NHS North West has made to (a) the opportunity to reduce backlog maintenance. Communiqué and (b) Burston Marsteller; for what services; and on what dates. [320720] NHS: Procurement Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected centrally. The Department does not collect information Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for on payments made by national health service bodies to Health pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2010, their suppliers. This information may be obtained direct Official Report, column 753W, on the NHS, when he from the North West Strategic Health Authority. 195W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 196W

Obesity: Children In exerting any influence a PCT should ensure that it considers the implications for continuity and quality of Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for care as well as value for money. Health what proportion of children in (a) Hampshire Sexually Transmitted Diseases Primary Care Trust, (b) Southampton Primary Care Trust and (c) nationally were recognised as clinically Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health obese in each age group in each of the last five years. (1) how many cases of sexually transmitted infections [320819] were diagnosed in (a) under 12 year-olds, (b) 13 to 15 year-olds, (c) 16 and 17 year-olds and (d) people aged 18 years old or more in each region in each year since Gillian Merron: The information is not available in 1997; [320783] the format requested. Data are not held nationally on children who have been diagnosed as clinically obese. (2) how many cases of (a) herpes, (b) Chlamydia, (c) HIV, (d) syphilis and (e) gonorrhoea were Children trend table 4 in the ‘Health Survey for diagnosed in people of each age group in each region in England—2008 trend tables’ contains the percentage of each year since 1997. [320784] children aged two to 10 and 11 to 15 in England who are obese in each year between 2004-08. This information Gillian Merron: Information on the number of diagnoses has already been placed in the Library. Information is of sexually transmitted infections is not collected in the not available by primary care trust (PCT). form requested. Further information on the proportion of children Information on the number of diagnoses for herpes, who are obese in England is collected through the Chlamydia, HIV, syphilis and gonorrhoea for people National Child Measurement Programme (NCMP). Table under 16, between 16-19 and 20 and over has been A in the NCMP main report shows the prevalence of placed in the Library. obese children aged four to five years and 10 to 11 years Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Essex in Hampshire PCT and Southampton PCT between 2006-07 and 2008-09. This information has already Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health been placed in the Library. how many (a) males and (b) females were diagnosed with (i) syphilis, (ii) gonorrhoea, (iii) Chlamydia Obesity: Surgery (uncomplicated), (iv) herpes (first incidence), (v) genital warts (first incidence), (vi) HIV/AIDS, (vii) trichomonas vaginalis and (viii) non-specific urethritis Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for in (A) the Mid-Essex Hospital Trust area and (B) Essex Health how many people in each age group in (a) in each of the last three years. [321301] Hampshire Primary Care Trust, (b) Southampton Primary Care Trust and (c) nationally have received Gillian Merron: Data are only available on the number gastric surgery of each type for the treatment of of diagnoses of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) obesity in each of the last 10 years. [320818] in genitourinary medicine (GUM) clinics by strategic health authority (SHA). Table 1 gives the number of Gillian Merron: This information has been placed in diagnoses for syphilis, gonorrhoea, Chlamydia the Library. (uncomplicated), herpes (first incidence), HIV, trichomoniasis, non-specific urethritis in the East of England SHA between 2006 and 2008, the latest date Primary Care Trusts: Contracts for which figures are available. Table 2 gives data for the number of new HIV diagnoses Dr. Richard Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for in Essex County and Mid Essex Primary Care Trust Health what powers a primary care trust has to (PCT) between 2006 and 2008 the latest date for which influence the result of the sale of the remaining part of figures are available. a contract with a private provider of out-of-hours care In addition to STIs diagnosed in GUM clinics, the to a different provider; and what account primary care National Chlamydia Screening programme (NCSP) trusts take of local support for private providers in provides Chlamydia screening to asymptomatic people exercising such powers. [321404] under the age of 25 in England. The NCSP was launched in 2003 when a phased implementation programme Mr. Mike O’Brien: A primary care trust (PCT) should started. Table 3 includes the number of diagnoses of be able to influence the sale of the remainder of a Chlamydia in patients between the ages of 15-24 years contract to the extent that was set out in the original in Mid Essex, North East Essex and West Essex PCTs contract between the PCT and the original out of hours between 2006 to 2009, the latest date for which figures provider. are available.

Table 1: Number of new HIV diagnoses from all services and sexually transmitted infection (STI) diagnoses in genitourinary medicine (GUM) clinics andinthe National Chlamydia Screening programme (NCSP) in East of England, by sex: 2006-09 (calendar year) Service STI Year Male Female Total1

Diagnostic Services HIV 2006 254 293 547 Diagnostic Services HIV 2007 275 244 519 Diagnostic Services HIV 2008 239 232 471 Diagnostic Services HIV 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Syphilis (primary and secondary) 2006 72 9 81 197W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 198W

Table 1: Number of new HIV diagnoses from all services and sexually transmitted infection (STI) diagnoses in genitourinary medicine (GUM) clinics andinthe National Chlamydia Screening programme (NCSP) in East of England, by sex: 2006-09 (calendar year) Service STI Year Male Female Total1

GUM clinics Syphilis (primary and secondary) 2007 59 10 69 GUM clinics Syphilis (primary and secondary) 2008 55 16 71 GUM clinics Syphilis (primary and secondary) 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Gonorrhoea (uncomplicated) 2006 560 279 839 GUM clinics Gonorrhoea (uncomplicated) 2007 539 260 799 GUM clinics Gonorrhoea (uncomplicated) 2008 519 306 825 GUM clinics Gonorrhoea (uncomplicated) 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Genital herpes (first incidence) 2006 641 1,093 1,734 GUM clinics Genital herpes (first incidence) 2007 608 1,275 1,883 GUM clinics Genital herpes (first incidence) 2008 705 1,370 2,075 GUM clinics Genital herpes (first incidence) 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Genital warts 2006 3,483 3,209 6,692 GUM clinics Genital warts 2007 3,690 3,457 7,147 GUM clinics Genital warts 2008 3,825 3,508 7,333 GUM clinics Genital warts 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Trichomoniasis 2006 16 290 306 GUM clinics Trichomoniasis 2007 13 286 299 GUM clinics Trichomoniasis 2008 14 308 322 GUM clinics Trichomoniasis 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Non-specific urethritis 2006 7,438 948 8,386 GUM clinics Non-specific urethritis 2007 7,651 776 8,427 GUM clinics Non-specific urethritis 2008 7,530 625 8,155 GUM clinics Non-specific urethritis 2009 n/a n/a n/a GUM clinics Chlamydia (uncomplicated) 2006 3,745 4,557 8,302 GUM clinics Chlamydia (uncomplicated) 2007 4,519 5,215 9,734 GUM clinics Chlamydia (uncomplicated) 2008 4,787 5,291 10,078 GUM clinics Chlamydia (uncomplicated) 2009 n/a n/a n/a NCSP Chlamydia 2006 267 1,132 1,399 NCSP Chlamydia 2007 488 1,235 1,724 NCSP Chlamydia 20082 1,171 3,637 4,835 NCSP Chlamydia 2009 2,189 5,574 7,796 1 Total includes those with unknown/unspecified sex. Therefore the sum of male and female diagnoses might not equal the total number of diagnoses. 2 NCSP data for 2008 includes non NCSP non GUM information reported for the period 1 April 2008 - 31 December 2008. Notes: New HIV Diagnoses data: 1. Numbers will rise as further reports are received. 2. Diagnoses are from reports received to end December 2009. 3. Patients may live with HIV for many years before they are diagnosed. Therefore new diagnosis data does not necessarily reflect recently acquired infections. 4. Areas when presented are area of diagnosis and not of residence, there is evidence that a large proportion of individuals are diagnosed outside their PCT of residence. 5. Data are unavailable for 2009. Source: Health Protection Agency, New HIV diagnoses in the United Kingdom. Date of data: 31 December 2009 GUM data: 1. Data are only provided at the SHA level. 2. The data available from the KC60 statutory returns are for diagnoses made in GUM clinics only. Diagnoses made in other clinical settings, such as General Practice, are not recorded in the KC60 dataset. 3. The data available from the KC60 statutory returns are the number of diagnoses made, not the number of patients diagnosed. 4. The information provided has been adjusted for missing clinic data. 5. Data are unavailable for 2009. Source: Health Protection Agency, KC60 returns. Date of data: July 2009 NCSP data: 1. NCSP data consist of returns from the NCSP core dataset and non NCSP non GUM laboratory returns. 2. The NCSP has been phased in since 1 April 2003 with all 152 PCTs reporting data to the programme since March 2008. Non NCSP non GUM data have been collected since 1 April 2008 from laboratories in England and are reported to the NCSP. Therefore note that numbers of diagnoses have risen substantiallyasan increasing proportion of the target population have been tested. 3. Data are based on those aged 15-24 years inclusive. 4. Data are presented by PCT of residence and exclude those resident outside of England. 5. Data available from the NCSP are the number of diagnoses made and not the number of patients diagnosed. 6. Data presented are based on tests with confirmed positive diagnoses only. Source: The National Chlamydia Screening programme Core dataset. Date of data: 3 February 2010; Non NCSP non GUM data. Date of data: 03 March 2010

Table 2: Number of new HIV diagnoses from all services in Essex county and Mid Essex PCT, by sex: 2006-08 (calendar year) Area STI Year Male Female Total

Mid Essex HIV 2006 7 12 19 Mid Essex HIV 2007 16 13 29 Mid Essex HIV 2008 7 5 12 Essex County HIV 2006 76 99 175 Essex County HIV 2007 83 91 174 199W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 200W

Table 2: Number of new HIV diagnoses from all services in Essex county and Mid Essex PCT, by sex: 2006-08 (calendar year) Area STI Year Male Female Total

Essex County HIV 2008 51 63 114 Notes: 1. Numbers will rise as further reports are received. 2. Diagnoses are from reports received to end December 2009. 3. Patients may live with HIV for many years before they are diagnosed. Therefore new diagnosis data does not necessarily reflect recently acquired infections. 4. Areas when presented are area of diagnosis and not of residence, there is evidence that a large proportion of individuals are diagnosed outside their PCT of residence. 5. Mid Essex PCT includes hospitals in the Mid Essex Hospital Trust area. 6. Data are unavailable for 2009. Source: Health Protection Agency, New HIV diagnoses in the United Kingdom. Date of data: 31 December 2009

Table 3: Number of Chlamydia diagnoses outside of GUM within Essex county, by PCT and sex: 2006-09 (calendar year) Area STI Year Male Female Total1

Mid Essex Chlamydia 2006 0 <5 <5 Mid Essex Chlamydia 2007 5 12 17 Mid Essex Chlamydia 20082 56 135 192 Mid Essex Chlamydia 2009 210 334 544 North East Essex Chlamydia 2006 <5 0 <5 North East Essex Chlamydia 2007 <5 <5 7 North East Essex Chlamydia 20082 162 301 465 North East Essex Chlamydia 2009 237 524 763 South East Essex Chlamydia 2006 31 193 224 South East Essex Chlamydia 2007 87 190 277 South East Essex Chlamydia 20082 106 354 462 South East Essex Chlamydia 2009 149 418 569 South West Essex Chlamydia 2006 9 22 31 South West Essex Chlamydia 2007 26 93 119 South West Essex Chlamydia 20082 85 283 373 South West Essex Chlamydia 2009 140 408 549 West Essex Chlamydia 2006 <5 <5 10 West Essex Chlamydia 2007 6 32 38 West Essex Chlamydia 20082 48 138 186 West Essex Chlamydia 2009 47 201 251 1 Total includes those with unknown/unspecified sex. Therefore the sum of male and female diagnoses might not equal the total number of diagnoses. Cells with numbers less than five and cells with the second lowest value where appropriate have been masked. 2 NCSP data for 2008 includes non NCSP non GUM information reported for the period 1 April 2008-31 December 2008. Notes: 1. NCSP data consist of returns from the NCSP core dataset and non NCSP non GUM laboratory returns. 2. The NCSP has been phased in since 1 April 2003 with all 152 PCTs reporting data to the programme since March 2008. Non NCSP non GUM data have been collected since 1 April 2008 from laboratories in England and are reported to the NCSP. Therefore note that numbers of diagnoses have risen substantiallyasan increasing proportion of the target population have been tested. 3. Data are based on those aged 15-24 years inclusive. 4. Data are presented by PCT of residence and exclude those resident outside of England. 5. Data available from the NCSP are the number of diagnoses made and not the number of patients diagnosed. 6. Data presented are based on tests with confirmed positive diagnoses only. Source: The National Chlamydia Screening programme core dataset. Date of data: 3 February 2010, Non NCSP non GUM data. Date of data: 3 March 2010.

WOMEN AND EQUALITY Sir George Alberti, who is leading a DH taskforce on the Health Aspects of Violence Against Women and Rape: Victim Support Schemes Girls. As the review is still under way, final costs are yet to Mrs. May: To ask the Minister for Women and be established. Equality how much funding has been allocated to Baroness Stern’s review of the treatment of survivors of rape by the police and other agencies in England and Wales. [316955] CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES

Maria Eagle: The Government Equalities Office jointly Education: International Cooperation commissioned the Stern Review with the Home Office. Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Baroness Stern’s review of rape reporting in England Children, Schools and Families (1) how many teachers and Wales has been allocated up to a maximum of and teaching assistants from each local authority have £170,000 programme spend. participated in the Teachers’ International Professional In the course of her review, Baroness Stern has Development Programme in each year since 2000; consulted widely with key stakeholders in all English [318234] regions and Wales, including police forces, local authorities, (2) how much funding in respect of the Teachers’ the Crown Prosecution Service, the health service and International Professional Development Programme third sector organisations. She is also taking into account has been allocated to each local authority in each year the work of Sara Payne, the Victims’ Champion, and since 2000. [318235] 201W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 202W

Mr. Coaker: There are three strands to the Teachers operate are provided in that Part and in Schedule 11. In International Professional Development (TIPD) relation to other services and public functions provided programme: local authority led study visits on a theme by faith schools, the exceptions contained in Clause 29 decided by the relevant local authority with 2000 places will apply to all public bodies, including maintained each year; school determined visits to examine a theme faith schools. The exceptions in Part 2 of Schedule 3 of study decided by the schools engaged, with 500 visits apply mainly to local authorities in relation to their each year; and a programme of study visits to developing education functions. Where they need to apply more countries with 80 places each year. widely, including to maintained faith schools, they do. The information on the number of teachers and An example of this is paragraph 11 of the Schedule. teaching assistants from each local authority who have There is no need for additional legislation. participated in the Teachers International Professional Development Programme visits for the period 2000-01 to 2006-07 is not held centrally and could be obtained Parenting Orders only at disproportionate cost. Information on the number of teachers taking part in local authority led study visits Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for by local authority; information on the number of teachers Children, Schools and Families how many parenting taking part in study visits on the developing country orders were issued because of (a) poor behaviour in strand; and for school determined study visits for 2007-08, school and (b) truancy in (i) 1997, (ii) 2005 and (iii) the 2008-09 and the anticipated out-turn for 2009-10 has latest year for which figures are available. [317819] been placed in the House Libraries. Funding for the Teachers International Professional Mr. Coaker: We have been collecting data on parenting Development (TIPD) programme is not distributed to orders since 2004. local authorities. Funding passes to the four programme The number of parenting orders made following delivery organisations, each of which is contracted to truancy prosecution (ancillary orders) is 427 for 2004/05, deliver a specified number of places. Each provider 505 in 2005/06, 602 in 2007/08 and 396 for 2008/09. receives an indication of how many places on the All 150 local authorities have systems in place to use programme each local authority might expect, with orders for behaviour in appropriate cases, but no orders places not taken up by local authorities re-allocated to have yet been issued. Parenting orders for behaviour are authorities where demand outstrips their allocation. a last resort measure, intended only for parents that will not engage with voluntary measures, and were never Educational Institutions: Tower Hamlets expected to be used in great volume. The number of parenting contracts for behaviour accepted by parents Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for is 410 for 2004/05, 1898 for 2005/06, 2535 for 2006/07, Children, Schools and Families (1) how many colleges 2546 for 2007/08 and 3528 for 2008/09. in the London borough of Tower Hamlets had an application for accreditation refused in the last Personal Social and Health Education 12 months; [314850] (2) how many colleges in the London borough of Tower Hamlets lost their accreditation in the last Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 months. [314851] Children, Schools and Families what training will be given to teachers of the personal, social, health and Mr. Woolas [holding answer 3 February 2010]: Ihave economic education curriculum to respond been asked to reply. appropriately to a child or young person, who, during such teaching, discloses abuse. [312701] The UK Border Agency does not hold figures on the number of colleges applying for accreditation from one Mr. Coaker: All school staff who work with children of its approved accrediting bodies for the purposes of should undertake training to equip them to carry out educational quality. However, a total of eight colleges their responsibilities for child protection effectively, that in the London borough of Tower Hamlets had an is kept up to date by refresher training at three yearly application for a Tier 4 Sponsor Licence refused in the intervals. In addition to this, all staff in schools should last 12 months. follow the guidance contained in What to do if you’re worried a child is being abused. This practice guidance Faith Schools: Equality tells people about the procedures to follow when passing on concerns and what will then happen. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families if he will bring forward legislative proposals to provide that the exceptions to Schools: Fires the equality duty contemplated in clause 29 of and schedule 3, part 2 of the Equality Bill be extended to Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State faith schools in the public sector; and if he will make a for Children, Schools and Families what recent steps he statement. [317017] has taken to improve fire safety in schools. [318627]

Ms Diana R. Johnson: In relation to their pupils, faith Mr. Coaker [holding answer 26 February 2010]: DCSF schools are not covered by clause 29 of the Equality Bill has comprehensive guidance on fire safety in schools on as a result of clause 28(2). They are instead covered by its fire safety portal at: Part 6 of the Bill and the exceptions they need to www.teachernet.gov.uk/fire 203W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 204W

In March 2007 the then Schools Minister, Jim Knight The Annual Training and Development Agency for MP,announced the Government’s new policy on sprinklers Schools Report states that there were 2,900 applications and their value as a measure against arson. He said: for Cohort 7 of the Teach First Programme (to start the “It is now our expectation that all new schools will have fire scheme in 2009-10). Of these, 485 places were awarded. sprinklers installed. However, we do not intend to make this a Data on applications for mainstream undergraduate compulsory measure. There may be a few cases where local ITT (such as Bachelor of Education) and the Graduate authorities or other promoters of schools consider that sprinklers Teacher Programme are not available centrally. are not needed. If so, they will need to be able to demonstrate that such schools are low risk and that sprinklers would not represent The number of recruits to ITT courses by the various good value for money.” routes and programmes has been published in Tables A1 and A2 of the Statistical First Release: School Teachers: Training Workforce in England (23/2009) at: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for index.shtml Children, Schools and Families how many (a) These tables show that in 2009-10 there were 7,920 applications were received for and (b) places were new entrants undergraduate ITT courses and 25,090 awarded on (i) graduate teacher programmes, (ii) entrants to postgraduate ITT courses. The latest available Bachelor of Education programmes, (iii) Postgraduate full year data for employment based routes to ITT refer Certificate of Education programmes and (iv) Teach to 2008-09 and show there were 5,120 new entrants to First programmes in the last 12 months for which the Graduate Teacher Programme and 370 entrants to figures are available. [314909] the Teach First Programme. Mr. Coaker [holding answer 2 February 2010]: The Truancy table shows the number of applications and acceptances to mainstream postgraduate initial teacher training (ITT) Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for courses in England for entry in 2009-10. Children, Schools and Families how many and in what Postgraduate applications and acceptances to ITT courses; year of entry: percentage of cases of parents charged with offences 2009-10 (provisional), Coverage: England related to failing to ensure their child attended school Number of applications Number of acceptances have ended in a conviction since 1997. [318273] Primary 20,440 8,660 Middle 500 330 Mr. Coaker [holding answer 24 February 2010]: Secondary 31,740 15,180 Information from the Ministry of Justice court proceedings Total 52,670 24,170 database on the number of defendants proceeded against Notes: at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for Figures presented in this table have been published in the GTTR website at: offences relating to failing to attend school in England, http://www.gttr.ac.uk/providers/statistics/applicantstatistics/ 2001 to 2008 can be viewed in the following table. Prior Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. There may be discrepancies between the sum of constituent items and totals as shown. to 2001 these offences cannot be separately identified. Some applications to postgraduate ITT courses are made independently of the These data are a further breakdown of those published GTTR and are not included in the figures. Source: in the “Criminal Statistics, Supplementary Volumes for Graduate Teacher Training Registry (GTTR) England and Wales” for the years 2001 to 2008.

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts and average fine imposed for offences relating to ‘failing to attend school’1, 2 Year 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Proceeded against 1,961 3,163 3,849 4,442 4,648 5,999 7,745 9,506 Found guilty 1,595 2,572 3,065 3,549 3,740 4,720 6,035 7,291 Percentage 81.3 81.3 79.6 79.9 80.5 78.7 77.9 76.7 1 Includes the following; (i) Failure to secure regular attendance at school. (Education Act 1996 S.444 (1)(8)). (ii) Parent knows that their child is failing to attend school regularly and fails without reasonable justification to cause him or her to attend school. (Education Act 1996 S.444(8)(1a)(8a) added by Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 S.72). 2 Prior to 2001 these offences cannot be separately identified. Notes: 1. The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. [Ref: IOS 85-10]

The increase in the number of cases over this period average 70,000 more pupils in school each day than reflects a sustained drive, led by the Government, to would be the case if absence rates were still at the level improve levels of school attendance including by of 1996/97. encouraging local authorities to make more use of their powers to proceed against parents who are failing Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for in their legal responsibility to ensure their children Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer receive a full time education. The outcome has been a of 10 February 2010, Official Report, columns 1091- significant improvement in school attendance, with on 92W, on pupils: absenteeism, if he will provide the 205W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 206W equivalent figures for secondary schools in (a) 2005-06 2006-07 and 2007-08. For information on Persistent and (b) 2007-08; and if he will provide the equivalent Absentees that are white British split by gender in figures for all schools in 2006-07. [318421] 2006-07, I refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 548W. Mr. Coaker [holding answer 24 February 2010]: The requested information is shown in the tables for 2005-06,

Secondary schools1: Number and proportion of persistent absentees2 by free school meal eligibility, in England

All pupils3

Proportion of pupil Proportion of pupil enrolments who are enrolments who are Pupil enrolments eligible for free Pupil enrolments not eligible for free Proportion of pupil who are eligible for school meals who are not eligible school meals enrolments free school meals classified as for free school classified as All pupil enrolments classified as classified as persistent meals classified as persistent classified as persistent persistent absentees absentees4 persistent absentees absentees4 persistent absentees absentees4

2005/06 71,130 16.0 142,180 5.5 217,390 7.1

2007/08 54,230 12.9 110,000 4.4 167,610 5.6

1 Includes middle schools as deemed, city technology colleges and academies. 2 Persistent absentees are defined as having 64 or more sessions of absence (authorised and unauthorised) during the year, typically over 20 per cent. overall absence rate. 3 Number of pupil enrolments in schools from start of the school year. Includes pupils on the roll for at least one session who are aged between five and 15, excluding boarders. Some pupils may be counted more than once. 4 The number of persistent absentee enrolments expressed as a percentage of the total number of enrolments with the same characteristics. Note: Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census.

Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1, 2, 3: Number and proportion of persistent absentees4 by free school meal eligibility, 2006/07, in England Proportion of pupil Proportion of pupil enrolments who are enrolments who are Pupil enrolments eligible for free Pupil enrolments not eligible for free Proportion of pupil who are eligible for school meals who are not eligible school meals enrolments free school meals classified as for free school classified as All pupil enrolments classified as classified as persistent meals classified as persistent classified as persistent persistent absentees absentees6 persistent absentees absentees6 persistent absentees absentees6

All pupils5 95,760 9.3 172,010 3.2 272,950 4.1 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes maintained secondary schools, city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Persistent absentees are defined as having 64 or more sessions of absence (authorised and unauthorised) during the year, typically over 20 per cent. overall absence rate. 5 Number of pupil enrolments in schools from start of the school year up until 25 May 2007. Includes pupils on the roll for at least one session who are aged between five and 15, excluding boarders. Some pupils may be counted more than once. 6 The number of persistent absentee enrolments expressed as a percentage of the total number of enrolments with the same characteristics. Source: School Census. Secondary schools1: Number and proportion of persistent absentees2 by free school meal eligibility, in England White British3 Proportion of pupil Proportion of pupil enrolments who are enrolments who are Pupil enrolments eligible for free Pupil enrolments not eligible for free Proportion of pupil who are eligible for school meals who are not eligible school meals enrolments free school meals classified as for free school classified as All pupil enrolments classified as classified as persistent meals classified as persistent classified as persistent persistent absentees absentees4 persistent absentees absentees4 persistent absentees absentees4

Boys 2005/06 28,200 18.9 58,630 5.4 86,830 7.0 2007/08 21,060 15.5 43,490 4.2 64,540 5.5

Girls 2005/06 28,970 19.6 62,600 5.9 91,570 7.6 2007/08 22,420 16.5 48,720 4.8 71,130 6.2 1 Includes middle schools as deemed, city technology colleges and academies. 2 Persistent absentees are defined as having 64 or more sessions of absence (authorised and unauthorised) during the year, typically over 20 per cent. overall absence rate. 3 Number of pupil enrolments in schools from start of the school year. Includes pupils on the roll for at least one session who are aged between five and 15, excluding boarders. Some pupils may be counted more than once. 4 The number of persistent absentee enrolments expressed as a percentage of the total number of enrolments with the same characteristics. Note: Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census. 207W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 208W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mr. Ian Austin: We have no plans to do so. The Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Planning: Public Consultation Act received Royal Assent in November 2009 and will commence on 1 April. Under the Act Regional Spatial 17. Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Strategies will become part of the new single Regional Communities and Local Government what mechanism Strategies. are in place to enable the views of local residents to be taken into account in the consideration of major Affordable Housing planning decisions affecting their areas; and if he will make a statement. [321015] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Social Mr. Ian Austin: Requirements to publicise planning HomeBuy sales have been completed in each (a) local applications are set out in Article 8 of the General authority area and (b) region in each year since 2005; Development Procedure Order. For major developments, and how many have been completed in 2009-10 to date. this will normally include a site notice or neighbour [320656] notification letters, and publication f a notice in a local newspaper. Mr. Ian Austin: Table 1 shows the number of Social All representations submitted by local residents within HomeBuy sales in each local authority area between the set consultation period must be taken into account April 2006 when the scheme started and March 2009. by the local planning authority in determining the application. Table 2 shows the number of Social HomeBuy sales in each Government Office region between April 2006 Local Government Representation and March 2009. During the six months 1 April 2009 to 30 September 18. Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State 2009, there were 59 completed Social HomeBuy sales for Communities and Local Government what recent by Registered Social Landlords. Figures for sales during representations he has received on variations in the this period by local authorities are not yet available. ratio between the number of people represented and Social HomeBuy is a voluntary and demand-led scheme councillors in different local authorities. [321016] in which only some social landlords chose to participate. It is one of several options available to help social Mr. Malik: We have recently received representations tenants into home ownership. Purchasers can buy shares on these matters in relation to certain unitary proposals of between 25 and 100 per cent. we were considering and on the wards of a parish Table 1 council in Bradford. Social HomeBuy sales Local West Midlands Fire Service authority area 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Total

Adur — 1 — 1 19. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Allerdale — 1 3 4 Communities and Local Government what recent Ashford — — 1 1 discussions he has had with the West Midlands fire Barking and —011 service on emergency response times. [321017] Dagenham Barnet — — 1 1 Mr. Malik: The Secretary of State has had no recent Basingstoke —3—3 discussions with West Midlands fire and rescue service and Deane on emergency response times. Bexley — 2 2 4 Birmingham — 2 6 8 Working Neighbourhoods Fund Bradford 3 2 1 6 Brent — 5 1 6 Brighton and 10—1 21. Shona McIsaac: To ask the Secretary of State for Hove Communities and Local Government what recent Bromley — 5 2 7 estimate he has made of the proportion of the working Burnley — — 1 1 neighbourhoods fund which has been allocated to local Camden — — 1 1 authorities. [321019] Cheltenham — 1 — 1 Chorley — 1 — 4 Mr. Denham: Since 2008, we have allocated over £1.5 Copeland — 1 6 7 billion of working neighbourhoods fund to help local Coventry 0 2 1 3 authorities with high rates of worklessness support Crawley — 7 — 7 their communities. All of the fund is allocated to local Croydon1 63817 authorities. Dudley — — 1 1 Durham — 1 — 1 Regional Spatial Strategies Ealing — 3 — 3 Eastbourne — 2 — 2 22. Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Eastleigh — 1 — 1 Communities and Local Government if he will bring Enfield — 2 — 2 forward proposals to end regional spatial strategies. Greenwich — 5 — 5 [321020] Hackney 2 12 1 15 209W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 210W

Table 1 Table 2 Social HomeBuy sales Region Number of Social HomeBuy sales Local authority area 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Total North East 16 North West 61 Hammersmith 10 4 1 15 Yorkshire and the Humber 19 and Fulham West Midlands 18 Haringey — — 1 1 East Midlands 5 Hart — 2 — 2 East 6 Hertsmere — 1 1 2 South East 32 Hillingdon 2 0 — 2 Greater London 147 Hounslow — 5 — 5 South West 2 Islington — — 2 2 Total 306 Kensington 37212 and Chelsea Source: Homes and Communities Agency Kingston upon 60—6 Hull Knowsley — — 1 1 Antisocial Behaviour Lambeth — — 1 1 Leeds 2 2 — 4 Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Leicester — 1 — 1 Communities and Local Government in which Lewisham — 1 — 1 constituencies the leaflet Tackling Anti-Social Liverpool — 1 — 1 Behaviour, ISBN: 978-1-4098-2156-4, was delivered in Luton — — 1 1 the month of February 2010. [321215] Manchester 1 15 — 16 Merton — — 1 1 Barbara Follett: The leaflet was delivered to a number Middlesbrough 1 3 — 4 of local authority areas that have made tackling antisocial Milton Keynes — 1 — 1 behaviour a priority within their Local Area Agreement Newham — 2 9 11 and/or which are facing particular ASB challenges within North —1—1 Hertfordshire their area. A table of the local authority areas that Oldham — 1 7 8 received the leaflet and the corresponding constituencies Pendle — 1 — 1 has been place in the Library of the House. Plymouth — 1 — 1 Redcar and —1—1 Departmental Consultants Cleveland Richmond —1—1 upon Thames Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Rochdale — — 1 1 Communities and Local Government how much was Sefton — 13 — 13 spent on external consultants and advisers by (a) his Sevenoaks — — 1 1 Department and (b) each (i) non-departmental public Sheffield — 1 1 body and (ii) executive agency for which his South 1214Department is responsible in each year since 2005. Tyneside [320778] Southampton — — 2 2 Southend-on- —1—1Barbara Follett: For the last three years the Department Sea has published in its annual report details of expenditure Southwark2 —21425 on consultancy by the Department itself, its executive Sunderland — — 6 6 agencies, the Planning Inspectorate, Queen Elizabeth II Tameside — — 1 1 Conference Centre and Fire Service College as well as Test Valley — 1 — 1 Ordnance Survey and Government offices. Details of The Wrekin — 2 — 5 expenditure from other non-departmental bodies are Tower Hamlets — — 2 2 not held centrally and could be obtained only at Tunbridge —— 4 4 Wells disproportionate cost. Waltham 1045Figures for earlier years could be supplied at only Forest disproportionate cost. Wellingborough 3 1 — 4 Welwyn —1—1For 2006-07 spend (contained in chapter 10, table 4— Hatfield page 115) West Berkshire — 1 2 3 http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ Westminster — 1 — 1 2007-annual-report.pdf Wirral — — 3 3 For 2007-08 spend (contained in chapter 10, table 5— Woking 1 1 — 2 page 141) Wychavon — — 1 1 York11—2http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ 05.pdf Grand Total 47 160 99 306 1 Croydon figure in 2008-09 includes four sales by the local authority. For 2008-09 spend (contained in chapter 10, table 13— 2 Southwark figures include five sales by the local authority, three in 2007-08 page 165) and two in 2008-09. Source: http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ Homes and Communities Agency 1281142.pdf 211W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 212W

Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings St. Albans Hertfordshire England

2005 1,313 10,509 723,509 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will 2006 1,471 10,620 744,931 place in the Library a copy of a print-out of the section 2007 1,446 10,494 763,319 of his Department’s staff handbook relating to 2008 1,348 10,391 783,119 disciplinary proceedings. [319140] 2009 1,317 10,706 770,661 The empty residential dwelling data include both Barbara Follett: A copy of the pages of the Department’s short-term and long-term empty dwellings as reported staff handbook relating to disciplinary proceedings will annually by all billing authorities in England in October be placed in the Library of the House. of the year. Data are not available at a constituency level. Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Estimates of the number of empty non-domestic Communities and Local Government how many (a) hereditaments in the St. Albans local authority area disciplinary and (b) capability procedures have been (i) and in England as at 31 March 2008 and 31 March initiated and (ii) completed in his Department in each 2009, the only years for which data are available, are of the last five years; how much time on average was shown in the following table. Data for Hertfordshire are taken to complete each type of procedure in each such not available. year; how many and what proportion of his Department’s staff were subject to each type of 31 March 2008 31 March 2009 procedure in each such year; and how many and what proportion of each type of procedure resulted in the St. Albans 389 293 Hertfordshire n/a n/a dismissal of the member of staff. [320635] England 237,000 237,000 n/a = Not available Barbara Follett: In each of the three years following The data are as reported by all billing authorities in the creation of the Department for Communities and England at the date specified. Again, data are not Local Government, 2006, 2007 and 2008, there were available at a constituency level. less than five disciplinary or capability procedures. As a consequence, further details cannot be provided without compromising individual confidentiality. Energy Performance Certificates In 2009, nine disciplinary procedures were initiated against CLG staff, six of which were completed. These Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for nine cases represented less than 1 per cent. of the Communities and Local Government whether his Department’s total population and each case took, on Department plans to correct incorrect data lodged on average, 2.8 months to process. The number of dismissals the Energy Performance Certificate Register between resulting from the disciplinary procedures is less than 18 September 2008 and June 2009. [320259] five and as a consequence, further details cannot be provided without compromising individual confidentiality. Mr. Ian Austin: Action is taken to correct any Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) data that is identified as In 2009, seven staff were the subject of formal capability incorrect either as a result of ongoing quality assurance procedures of which less than five were taken to a procedures or as a result of a customer complaint. formal conclusion. As a consequence, further details cannot be provided without compromising individual Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for confidentiality. These seven cases represented less than Communities and Local Government which division of 1 per cent. of the Department’s total population and his Department is responsible for the (a) development each case took, on average, 1.6 months to process. No and (b) distribution of software for (i) calculating dismissals resulted from any of these cases. energy efficiency ratings and (ii) lodging energy In 2010, there have been less than five procedures performance certificates. [320260] initiated in relation to capability and discipline and as a consequence, further details cannot be provided without Mr. Ian Austin: Home Buying, Selling and Energy compromising individual confidentiality. Performance Division leads on all aspects of Energy Performance Certificate policy. They are responsible for the development and distribution of three software Empty Property packages used to produce Energy Performance Certificates. These are Standard Assessment Procedure (SAP) for new build dwellings, Reduced data Standard Assessment Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Procedure (RdSAP) for existing dwellings and Simplified Communities and Local Government how many empty Building Energy Model (SBEM) for non-dwellings. (a) commercial and (b) residential properties there were in (i) St. Albans constituency, (ii) Hertfordshire Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for and (iii) England in each of the last five years. [320848] Communities and Local Government what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of the software used Barbara Follett: The number of empty residential to calculate standard assessment procedure ratings for properties in the St. Albans local authority area, in energy performance certificates between September Hertfordshire and in England in 2005 to 2009 are 2008 and June 2009; and whether certificates lodged shown in the following table. between those dates are valid. [320281] 213W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 214W

Mr. Ian Austin: Only software that has been validated Efficiencies are being achieved through the NAHP and approved by the Department can be used to produce through the competitive bidding process and value for Energy Performance Certificates (EPCs). The standard money assessment of the various schemes. software produced by the Department is continually All this has enabled HCA to find £158 million of monitored and upgraded on a regular basis. Any EPC efficiencies over 2009-10 and 2010-11, the remaining produced by an accredited energy assessor using approved £25 million will be identified by the HCA through the software is considered to be valid. current business planning process where the targets and profiles of programmes are being closely examined and Fire Services tested. Homes and Communities Agency: Pay Ms Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has received on response times of Communities and Local Government pursuant to the fire and rescue services. [321010] answer of 1 March 2010, Official Report, columns 958-9W, on the Homes and Communities Agency, what Mr. Malik: The Secretary of State has received no the average salary of a head of function was in recent representations on the response times of fire and 2009-10. [320928] rescue services. However, it is the case that our jurisdiction is limited to England. John Healey: The average salary for a head of function in 2009-10 was £89,500. Homes and Communities Agency: Finance Housing Revenue Accounts

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Communities and Local Government if he will bring answer of 1 March 2010, Official Report, column forward proposals to allow with immediate effect local 959W, on the Homes and Communities Agency: authorities to spend all their right-to-buy receipts finance, (1) what steps the agency (a) has taken and ring-fenced on housing revenue account housing. (b) plans to take to save £30 million from the [320809] Community Infrastructure Fund; and if he will make a statement; [320929] Mr. Ian Austin: The proposal to allow local authorities to retain capital receipts from the sale of housing assets, (2) when he expects the agency to (a) identify and including under Right to Buy arrangements, was included (b) announce the programmes from which the in the Government’s consultation paper “Reform of remaining £25 million of efficiencies will be made; council housing finance” issued in July 2009. This is [320930] directly linked to the main proposal made in that paper (3) for what purpose the £26 million in recycled to move towards a new self-financing arrangement for receipts from the Derelict Land Grant programme had councils which own social housing. I expect to make a originally been intended; and if he will make a further announcement to provide more detail on the statement.; [320931] self financing package of proposals in the next few (4) what steps the agency (a) has taken and (b) weeks. plans to take to save £2 million from the Property and We have already announced that newly built or acquired Regeneration programme; and if he will make a council homes can be excluded from the Housing Revenue statement; [320932] Account Subsidy system through an agreement with the (5) what steps the agency (a) has taken and (b) Secretary of State, which would allow the local authority plans to take to find £50 million from making to keep the full receipt should those homes subsequently efficiencies within the national affordable housing be sold. programme; and if he will make a statement. [320933] Housing: Empty Property

John Healey: As part of the funding for the Housing Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Pledge, the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) Communities and Local Government (1) how many was asked to find £183 million across 2009-10 and homes were vacant for a period of more than six 2010-11 through efficient and flexible management of months in each local authority area in each of the last its housing and regeneration programmes. three years; [320837] For the Community Infrastructure Fund (CIF) the (2) how many homes were vacant in each local HCA has sought greater efficiencies within project authority area in each of the last three years. [320918] timescales by local authorities and looked to encourage alternative funding sources either locally or by substitution Barbara Follett: I have today placed in the Library of of funding from other related sources. the House a table giving details of the number of In respect of the Land and Property programme and long-term vacant homes (i.e. vacant for more than six Derelict Land Grant, the additional receipts returned months) and total vacant homes in each local authority to the HCA were allowed to be retained by the Agency area in England in each of the last three years. to fund the Housing Pledge. Given the uncertain timing These data are as reported on the “Calculation of of all Derelict Land Grant receipts, the £26 million had Council Tax Base for Formula Grant Purposes” (CTB) not been ear marked for any specific programme prior forms completed by all the billing authorities in England to being allocated to the Housing Pledge. as at a specified date in October each year. 215W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 216W

Lighthouse Project: Finance Tenancy Deposit Schemes Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which tenancy Communities and Local Government how much deposit schemes charge for services related to funding (a) his Department, (b) the Government adjudicating on disputes relating to the deposit. Office for the West Midlands and (c) each of his [320820] Department’s agencies has given to the Lighthouse project in each year to date. [320723] Mr. Ian Austin: None of the three Government-approved tenancy deposit protection scheme providers are permitted, Barbara Follett: The Government Office for the West under the terms of their contracts, to make direct Midlands has not directly allocated any funding to this charges for their alternative dispute resolution services. project. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Local Government: Apprentices he has made of the financial viability of each of the authorised tenancy deposit schemes; and whether his Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has responsibility to ensure the financial Communities and Local Government what viability of such schemes. [320926] information his Department holds on the number of Mr. Ian Austin: The three tenancy deposit protection apprentices each local authority employed in (a) schemes are operated by private companies under contract 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [320796] with Communities and Local Government and are designed to be self-financing. All the contracts contain safeguards Barbara Follett: The National Apprenticeships Service to ensure the financial viability of the schemes. is responsible for monitoring the number of apprentices within the public and private sector, including local Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities. Details can be found on their website Communities and Local Government when each tenancy deposit scheme provider’s contract expires. http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/About-Us/Performance- data.aspx [320927] Authorities recently volunteered information on the Mr. Ian Austin: The Department for Communities overall number of apprenticeships across the sector this and Local Government’s contracts with the three tenancy year to the Department, and aggregate information was deposit protection scheme providers for the provision of included in a press notice issued by Communities and tenancy deposit protection schemes will run until the Local Government on 2 February this year. end of March 2012. All three contracts have the option of a further one year extension. Multiple Occupation: Greater London Valuation Office Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for for Communities and Local Government with Communities and Local Government what recent reference to the answer to the hon. Member for estimate his Department has made of (a) the Brentwood and Ongar of 15 May 2006, Official proportion of affordable housing in London provided Report, column 766W, on the Valuation Office Agency, in houses in multiple occupation (HMOs) and (b) the whether any changes have been made since May 2006 number of people living in HMOs in London. [321351] to the Valuation Office Agency’s (a) powers and (b) policy on revaluing, re-assessing or re-classifying a John Healey: This information is not held centrally. domestic hereditament or composite hereditament after (i) a material change to a property and (ii) a Property Development: Floods council tax appeal. [319647] Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for There have been no changes to the (a) powers granted Communities and Local Government what proportion to listing officers of the Valuation Office Agency since of new dwellings have been built in areas at risk of May 2006. In two limited respects (b) the approach to flooding in each (a) region and (b) local authority the banding or identification of a domestic hereditament, area in each year since 1997. [320527] or a composite hereditament, has changed. (i)After a material change Mr. Ian Austin: Annual information of the percentage In finding that changes to the cartilage of a property created a of new dwellings built in areas of high flood risk by new hereditament, the Lands Tribunal case of Baker(VO) v. Government office region since 1989 is published in Tower Hamlets in 2007 clarified the law relating to the identification Land Use Change Statistics Live Table 251. The table of hereditaments. Any material change to the curtilage of a can be found at dwelling, such as reduction or increase of plot size, will create a new or different dwelling, which must be entered with an appropriate http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ band in a council tax valuation list. planningbuilding/planningstatistics/livetables/landusechange/ (ii) After a council tax proposal Statistics on proportion of new dwellings built in Where it has become apparent that an agreement has created a flood risk areas by local authority area are not currently valuation list entry that is inaccurate, VOA advice has been published and could be produced only at disproportionate clarified to make it clear that the listing officer is empowered to cost. correct it. 217W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 218W

Both these changes are reflected in Council Tax Manual Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDS) issued, defendants found guilty at all courts for selling alcohol to a person aged under 181, England and Wales Practice Notes, which are published on the Valuation 20082 Office Agency’s website. Penalty notice for Police force area Convictions3 disorder

West Yorkshire 8 122 HOME DEPARTMENT Wiltshire 17 18 Alcoholic Drinks: Young People England and Wales 366 2,824 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for the offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the Home Department how many retailers in each local heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or authority area in the South East were convicted for more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory selling alcohol to minors in the last 12 months. [320814] maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Mr. Alan Campbell: The number of persons found from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police guilty at all courts and the number of penalty notices forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection for disorder (PND) given for the sale of alcohol to a processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. person under 18 years, broken down by police force 3 Excludes convictions data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and area (PFA) in England and Wales 2008 can be viewed in August 2008. the following table. The PFAs in the South East are Source: Kent, Hampshire, Surrey, Sussex and Thames Valley. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Court proceedings data for 2009 is due to be published Antisocial Behaviour Orders in the autumn 2010. Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDS) issued, defendants found guilty Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for the at all courts for selling alcohol to a person aged under 181, England and Wales 20082 Home Department how many antisocial behaviour Penalty notice for orders were (a) issued and (b) breached in the Police force area Convictions3 disorder Chelmsford local authority area in each of the last five years. [320350] Avon and Somerset 6 61 Bedfordshire — 24 Cambridgeshire 8 12 Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 4 March 2010]: Cheshire 7 24 The latest available data on the number of antisocial Cleveland 8 60 behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued and breached covers Cumbria 3 26 the period 1 April 1999 to 31 December 2007. Data on Derbyshire 16 186 the number of ASBOs issued collected centrally by the Devon and Cornwall 1 58 Ministry of Justice are not available below Criminal Dorset 3 46 Justice System (CJS) area level. A further breakdown Durham 6 22 could be ascertained only by reference to individual Dyfed Powys 2 35 court files, which could be achieved only at disproportionate Essex 7 56 cost. Gloucestershire 29 33 Data on breaches of ASBOs collected centrally by Greater Manchester 6 135 the Ministry of Justice and held on the Court Proceedings Gwent 2 33 Database only counts those occasions where the breach Hampshire — 132 was proven in court to have occurred. These data are Hertfordshire 6 29 not compiled below CJS area level. Humberside 27 69 The available information is shown in the table. Kent 9 35 Number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued all courts1 and the Lancashire 6 170 number breached2 in the Essex Criminal Justice System (CJS) area, 1 January Leicestershire 17 101 2003 to 31 December 2007 Lincolnshire 65 56 CJS area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Merseyside 1 121 Essex Metropolitan 5 260 Norfolk 10 13 Issued 23 79 88 32 28 North Wales 1 43 Breached 2 28 57 39 20 North Yorkshire 4 3 1 Includes ASBOs issued on application by magistrates courts acting in .their civil capacity and county courts, which became available on 1 April 1999 and Northamptonshire 4 24 ASBOs made following conviction for a relevant criminal offence at the Crown Northumbria 16 35 court and at magistrates courts (acting in their criminal capacity), which Nottinghamshire 1 49 became available on 2 December 2002. 2 ASBOs may be breached more than once and in more than one year. In this South Wales 6 64 table ASBOs are counted once only within the period when they were first South Yorkshire 5 214 breached. For these reasons breach rates cannot be computed from the figures Staffordshire 1 38 presented in this table. ASBOs may be issued in one area and breached in another. Breaches are counted in this table by area of issue. Suffolk — 26 Notes: Surrey 3 45 1. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Sussex 32 97 complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Thames Valley 7 117 forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Warwickshire 1 10 processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those West Mercia 3 45 data are used. 2. Previously issued data have been revised. West Midlands 7 77 219W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 220W

Antisocial Behaviour: Alcoholic Drinks Binyam Mohamed

Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent assessment he has Home Department whether he provided an made of the effect of alcohol use on the level of authorisation under section 7 of the Intelligence antisocial behaviour. [320794] Services Act 1994 in relation to the interrogation of Binyam Mohamed. [320947] Mr. Alan Campbell: Problems with drunk or rowdy behaviour form one component of the overall measure Alan Johnson [holding answer 8 March 2010]: The of antisocial behaviour that is routinely included in the Government do not comment on intelligence matters. British Crime Survey. The latest figures, for the 12 months ending September 2009, shows that there has been a Communications Capabilities Directorate reduction in the proportion of people with a high level of perceived antisocial behaviour in their local area (down from 17 per cent. to 15 per cent. year on year) David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the and a reduction from 26 per cent. to 25 per cent. of Home Department how many staff are employed (a) those who perceive problems with drunk and rowdy within the Communications Capabilities Directorate behaviour. and (b) on projects associated with the Communications Capabilities Directorate. [318268] The update can be found at the following link: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0210.pdf Mr. Hanson [holding answer 24 February 2010]: 147 staff currently work within the Directorate. This number Asylum will be reduced significantly during 2010. The Directorate has links with other areas of the Home Office but no Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the other Home Office staff work full-time on projects Home Department what steps he has taken to increase associated with Directorate’s work. the rate of removal of failed asylum seekers since May 2005. [320607] Deportation Mr. Woolas: The Government’s measures include memoranda of understanding and readmission agreements Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the with overseas governments to increase returns and Home Department how many removal notices for re-documentation rates; regular charter services to countries unsuccessful asylum seekers have been issued in each where it would otherwise be difficult to return significant year since 1997. [320651] numbers because of lack of capacity on scheduled services; joint charters with other EU member states; Mr. Woolas: The number of IS151As, which is a Assisted Voluntary Return schemes offering enhanced notice to a person liable to removal, issued to failed packages to encourage voluntary return; close liaison asylum seekers (FAS) by the UK Border Agency in each with the judiciary to allow for the expeditious processing year since 2003 is shown in the following table. Data for of legal challenges and changes to the judicial review previous years were not recorded centrally and would policy to counter vexatious applications for judicial require the examination of individual records at review; and expansion of the UK Border Agency detention disproportionate cost to extract. estate. Number of IS151As issued to In addition, we have made it increasingly difficult for Calendar year FAS people to live and work here who have no right to do so through toughening the illegal working legislation. 2003 20,611 Employers now face large fines if they hire illegal migrant 2004 34,748 workers including failed asylum seekers. Also, local 2005 26,309 immigration teams, backed by Immigration Crime 2006 23,855 Partnerships with the police, are in the process of being 2007 25,666 established across the country to track down, detain 2008 26,832 and remove all immigration offenders. 2009 25,618

Asylum: Newcastle upon Tyne All figures quoted are internal management information only and are subject to change. This information has Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for the not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Home Department whether drinkable water is available The IS151A does not necessarily signify that the UK on each floor of the Angel Heights asylum seeker Border Agency is making immediate efforts to remove hostel in Westgate Road, Newcastle upon Tyne; and that person at that time, as there may be numerous what payments his Department has made to the Angel barriers to removal (such as an outstanding asylum Group in respect of this hostel since 2006. [320711] claim or appeal right) which must first be considered; should the person subsequently be granted leave then Mr. Woolas: Drinkable water is available from all the IS151A is no longer valid. Therefore, the issue of four floors of the building. The UK Border Agency has such a form does not correlate with the numbers of made payments of £1,030,919.68 to the Angel Group people actually removed from the UK. Removal directions for accommodating eligible asylum seekers in Angel are set at the end of the process when any barriers to Heights since 2006. removal are resolved. 221W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 222W

Drugs Entry Clearances

Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has made of Home Department what the average time taken was to the effects on society of the use of psychoactive process an application for a spousal visa in each of the substances by individuals. [319668] last six months. [320847] Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office has published research which addresses the effect on society of Class Mr. Woolas: The global average processing time for A drug use: spouse visas in each of the six months from August ‘The economic and social costs of Class A drug use in England 2009 to January 2010 was as follows: and Wales in 2003-04’, provides a measure of the total costs to Processing times—spouse visas society of Class A drug use. In Measuring different aspects of Month Working days to resolve problem drug use: methodological developments http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/rdsolr1606.pdf August 2009 28 ’Measuring the harm from illegal drugs using the Drug Harm September 2009 33 Index 2006’, provides an overarching measure of the harm caused October 2009 25 by illegal drugs including drug-related crime, community perceptions November 2009 18 of drug use and drug dealing and the various health consequences December 2009 16 that arise from drug misuse. January 2010 20 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/horr13.pdf In addition, assessment of a drug’s societal harms is The target is to process 95 per cent. of settlement made on a case by case basis informed by advice from visas within 60 working days. the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) in respect of those drugs controlled under the Misuse of Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the Drugs Act 1971 or which have been considered for Home Department what the (a) mean and (b) median control. The ACMD’s recent reports can be found at: time was to process an application for leave to remain http://drugs.homeoffice.gov.uk/drugs-laws/acmd/index.html in December 2009. [320894]

Drugs: Misuse Mr. Woolas: The information requested is as follows: Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Days Home Department what estimate he has made of the Number (a) level of availability and (b) price of mephedrone Mean 40 on the internet; and what estimate he has made of the Median 48 average street price of cocaine in the last 12 months. Note: [320341] These figures are not provided under National Statistics protocols and have been derived from local management information. They are therefore provisional and subject to change. Figures relate to cases which were decided by 3 March Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 4 March 2010]: 2010. Mephedrone is sold in the UK through shops and online from websites under the guise of a research Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the chemical, plant food or bath salts. It can be purchased Home Department what the longest-standing from the internet at between £10 and £15 per gram. application for leave to remain is for which processing The street cocaine market is multi-tiered and a gram is yet to be completed by his Department. [320895] of cocaine can be sold for between £20 and £70, with a most common price of £40. What is being sold as Mr. Woolas: The information requested is not available cocaine by local dealers typically contains less than centrally and could be provided only by examination of 20 per cent. cocaine hydrochloride. individual case files. Long standing applications arise for a variety of reasons. Electronic Government: International Cooperation

Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Home Department what role the Identity Passport Service (IPS) is playing in the EU’s STORK Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for the programme; and what recent discussions the IPS has Home Department what estimate he has made of the had with its EU counterparts on storing fingerprints number of private colleges that have closed as a result on microchips. [320913] of a failure to gain Government accreditation as bona fide institutions offering courses for overseas students Meg Hillier: The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) in the last 12 months. [314604] is leading the UK contribution to Project STORK as a member of a consortium within the EU who are working Mr. Woolas [holding answer 3 February 2010]: Since together to pilot a cross border solution for the delivery 31 March 2009, any institution wishing to bring non of e-services. The project is part of the European Union EEA nationals to the UK to study must undergo a Competitiveness and Innovation Framework programme. two-stage process of inspection, audit or accreditation, IPS has frequent contact with many of its EU followed by licensing by the UK Border Agency for counterparts, both bilaterally and during the course of immigration purposes. This process has reduced the EU policy and technical meetings, where the use of number of institutions able to bring students to the UK fingerprints in travel documents is sometimes discussed. from over 4,000 to approximately 2,000. 223W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 224W

There is no estimate of the number of private colleges Table A: Offences recorded by the police in Essex in which firearms were 1 that have closed as a result of failure to gain accreditation reported to have been used , 1997 to 2001-02 from an accreditation body as distinct from sponsor Air-weapons Non air-weapons Total licensing for UKBA purposes. If a private college does 1999-2000 283 61 344 not have accreditation it does not prevent it offering 2000-01 279 77 356 courses to UK or other EEA nationals outside of Tier 4 2001-023 448 98 546 of the points based system. 1 By weapon being fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person or used as a threat. 2 There was a change in the counting rules for recorded crime on 1 April 1998. Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for the 3 Figures may have been inflated by some police forces implementing the Home Department what estimate he has made of the principles of the National Crime Recording Standard before 1 April 2002. number of private colleges that have received and subsequently lost accreditation as a bona fide Table B: Offences recorded by the police in Essex in which firearms were reported to have been used1, 2002-03 to 2008-09 institution offering courses for overseas students (a) Air-weapons Non air-weapons Total temporarily and (b) permanently. [314605] 2002-032 584 148 732 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 3 February 2010]: Five 2003-04 608 145 753 private colleges that held a tier 4 sponsor licence at one 2004-053 360 193 553 time have since lost accreditation from their approved 2005-06 323 280 603 body and had their sponsor licence removed. UKBA 2006-07 308 255 563 does not hold any information on whether these institutions 2007-08 289 260 549 have since re-applied to the accrediting body. As at 2008-09 196 176 372 31 January 2010 UKBA had revoked the licences of 1 By weapon being fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person or used as 15 educational institutions. a threat. 2 The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in April 2002. Figures before and after that date are not directly comparable. Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the 3 More explicit guidelines for the classification of weapons introduced on Home Department how many tier 4 applications are 1 April 2004 may have increased the recording of firearm offences, particularly awaiting decision in (a) India, (b) Nepal and (c) those committed by imitation weapons. Bangladesh. [320946] Identity Cards: Databases

Mr. Woolas [holding answer 8 March 2010]: As of Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the the end of January, the number of Tier 4 student visa Home Department pursuant to the answer of applications lodged at our visa application centres in 7 December 2009, Official Report, column 77W, on India, Nepal and Bangladesh that were awaiting a decision identity cards: databases, what the prescribed were as follows: circumstances are under which information may be provided from the National Identity Register under the Number Identity Cards Act 2006; and to which organisations India 20,432 such information has been provided. [314334] Nepal 6,783 Bangladesh 3,060 Meg Hillier: The Identity Cards Act 2006, and secondary legislation made there under, sets out who can be provided Firearms: Crime with information from an individual’s entry on the Register and under what circumstances. In particular, Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Identity Cards Act 2006 (Provision of Information Home Department how many instances of crimes without Consent) Regulations 2009, and the Identity involving a gun have been reported to (a) Essex and Cards Act 2006 (Information and Code of Practice on (b) Southend police in each year since 1997; and how Penalties) Order 2009 prescribe government departments many such reports led to a (i) prosecution and (ii) and public authorities respectively who may be provided conviction. [320649] with information without the consent of the individual. So far, information has been provided to the Home Mr. Alan Campbell: Available information relates to Office and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office so offences recorded by the police in Essex in which firearms that the UK Border Agency and consular posts abroad were reported to have been used from 1997 to 2008-09 can be notified of any identity cards that have been and are given in tables (A) and (B). This information is reported lost or stolen. not collected centrally for Southend. Firearms are taken to be involved in a crime if they Identity Cards: Marketing are fired, used as a blunt instrument or used as a threat against a person. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Information on prosecutions and convictions is not Home Department how much has been spent on (a) available centrally as specific circumstances of the offences advertising, (b) marketing, (c) branding and (d) are not collected beyond definitions provided by the public relations in respect of (i) identity cards and (ii) statutes. the National Identity Register. [305109] Table A: Offences recorded by the police in Essex in which firearms were reported to have been used1, 1997 to 2001-02 Meg Hillier: The information is as follows: Air-weapons Non air-weapons Total (a) The IPS has to date spent £1,299,000 on buying advertising space to communicate to the business community nationally and 1997 211 58 269 to consumers in Greater Manchester, north west England and 1998-992 270 47 317 London in respect of (i) and (ii). The messages, both online and 225W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 226W offline highlighted general issues around the risks of identity theft Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. These powers can and fraud and encouraged people to be ″idsmart″ by being aware only be used once the Secretary of State has made an of the risks. order subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution (b) The IPS has to date spent £87,700 on developing and of either House. Such an order has not yet been made printing marketing material such as brochures, leaflets and application and thus the powers have not so far been introduced. guidance notes for consumers in Greater Manchester, north west of England, London and airside workers in respect of (i) and (ii). In autumn 2009, in light of the economic climate, the (c) The IPS has to date spent £11,930 on branding in respect Home Office concluded that it would not be appropriate of (i) and (ii). to introduce such an order at this time, due to the (d) The IPS has to date spent £0 (nothing) on public relations potential and uncertain impact on industry. The Home in respect of (i) and (ii). Office is working with partners and industry representatives to identify ways that the objectives can be achieved Illegal Immigrants while minimising industry impact. Since the Act was passed it has become increasingly Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for the evident that industry concerns in relations to the costs Home Department how many staff his Department and other burdens of facilitating this power should be and its agencies have appointed who were later considered fully before secondary legislation was laid discovered to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320440] before Parliament. Representations have been made from a range of industry representatives and Home Mr. Woolas: In 2005 one appointed member of staff Office officials have met a range of these representatives was discovered to be working illegally, although he was and discussed many of their concerns. in the country legitimately. There have been no more Representations have dealt broadly with the costs of cases since. introducing systems which would be able to provide information to the police; the type of information that Immigration would be required; the breadth of the information required in relation to the periods covered, and the Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the detail of the information and the operating models for Home Department what his most recent estimate is of any systems which may be introduced. Representations the number of older, non-asylum cases considered by have also been made in relation to the inclusion of these the UK Border Agency which have resulted in (a) powers in the Draft Immigration (Simplification) Bill, removal and (b) the award of a grant in each of the which would replace the 2006 Act. last five years; and how many such cases remain The incorporation of s.33 in the new bill does not outstanding. [317319] represent any change in policy and we remain committed to consult formally with industry before introducing Mr. Woolas: The chief executive of the UK Border secondary legislation before Parliament. Agency Lin Homer, reported in her letter to the Home We are confident that the measures in place for Affairs Select Committee (HASC) on 4 February 2010 countering the threats to the UK in relation to the about the group of older, non-asylum cases where the movements of goods match the current level of threat application has been dealt with, but where there is no and remain mindful of the need to balance the need to formal record that the individual has left the country. facilitate trade while ensuring that our capability to This review is in the early stages and the UK Border counter this threat remains effective. Agency has concluded just over 200 cases. The Agency is currently working those cases that fall into the exceptional circumstances criteria for expedition and is planning to Members: Correspondence increase resource allocated to this work as the clearance of casework backlogs is completed. The Agency is planning that all of the remaining files will be reviewed Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the and archived by summer 2011. Lin Homer will provide Home Department when he expects to reply to the a further progress update on the conclusion of these letters of 3 and 15 February 2010 from the hon. cases in the next update to HASC. Member for Walsall North. [320345]

Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The chief executive of the UK Border Agency wrote to my Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the hon. Friend on 4 March 2010. Home Department (1) what representations he has received on potential changes to the freight data Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the capture powers given to the police by the Immigration, Home Department when he expects to reply to the Asylum and Nationality Act 2006; [320554] letter of 20 January 2010 from the hon. Member for (2) how many times the freight data capture powers Walsall North to the UK Border Agency concerning a contained within the Immigration, Asylum and resident in his constituency, references 51397020 and Nationality Act 2006 have been used by each police B21167/9. [320346] force since the Act came into force. [320555] Mr. Woolas [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The Alan Johnson: The requirement for individuals and deputy director for the North West of the UK Border companies to supply information on the movement of Agency, Kevin Romano, wrote to my hon. Friend on freight is included in Section 33 of the Immigration, 4 March 2010. 227W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 228W

Police: Vehicles (2) how many people have been (a) arrested for, (b) prosecuted for, (c) convicted for and (d) acquitted of Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for the offences of rape in each of the last 10 years. [320119] Home Department whether his Department issues Mr. Alan Campbell: The arrests collection held by the guidance to police forces on the provision of vehicular Home Office covers arrests for recorded crime (notifiable support to police officers investigating suspected offences) only, broken down at a main offence group gang-related activity. [321260] level, covering categories such as violence against the person and robbery. Mr. Hanson: Neither the Home Office, nor any of its The offence of arrests on suspicion of sexual assaults agencies, has issued any such guidance. and offence of rape is not a notifiable offence and does not form part of this collection. Sexual Offences Information provided by the Ministry of Justice state the number of people proceeded against, found guilty Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for the and proceedings that did not lead to a finding of guilt at Home Department (1) how many people have been (a) all courts for rape and sexual assault, England and arrested for, (b) prosecuted for, (c) convicted for and Wales 1999 to 2008 (latest available) is given in the table. (d) acquitted of offences of sexual assault in each of Court proceedings data for 2009 are planned to be the last 10 years; [320118] published in the autumn 2010.

Persons proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty and proceedings that did not lead to a finding of guilt at all courts for rape1, and sexual assault2, England and Wales 1999 to 20083, 4, 5 Number Proceedings that did not lead to a Offence Proceeded against Found guilty finding of guilt6

Rape1 1999 1,986 561 1,425 2000 1,865 519 1,346 2001 2,417 494 1,923 2002 2,698 548 2,150 2003 2,550 583 1,967 2004 2,453 644 1,809 2005 2,558 694 1,864 2006 2,335 754 1,581 2007 2,138 777 1,361 2008 2,181 822 1,359

Sexual assault2 1999 4,627 2,868 1,759 2000 4,354 2,633 1,721 2001 4,496 2,517 1,979 2002 4,651 2,590 2,061 2003 4,846 2,467 2,379 2004 4,920 2,608 2,312 2005 4,106 2,238 1,868 2006 3,764 2,052 1,712 2007 3,548 2,103 1,445 2008 3,364 2,120 1,244 1 Includes: Rape of a female and male (excludes attempted rape). 2 Data include the following statutes and corresponding offence descriptions: Sexual assault on a male. Sexual assault on a female. 3 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with.Whena defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 5 Excludes convictions data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and August 2008. 6 ″Where proceedings did not lead to a finding of guilt″ covers defendants tried and found not guilty as well as proceedings that were discontinued or cases where no evidence was offered, charges were withdrawn or the judge ruled that there was no case to answer. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice.

UK Border Agency: Complaints Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency does not hold central information to the level of detail asked for Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the in this question. However, data are available relating Home Department how many complaints about to all types of complaints about the service that asylum applications submitted since March 2007 were the Agency provides. In 2008 there were 10,835 such made to the UK Border Agency in each of the last five complaints received by the Agency and in 2009 there years. [320885] were 12,038. 229W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 230W

WORK AND PENSIONS Departmental Manpower

Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Departmental Advertising for Work and Pensions how many performance reviews were undertaken in respect of staff of (a) her Department and (b) its agencies in each of the last five John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for years; in how many cases performance was rated as Work and Pensions how much her Department has unsatisfactory or below; how many staff left as a direct spent to date on each of its current radio advertising result of such a rating; and what percentage of campaigns; and what the purpose is of each such full-time equivalent staff this represented. [313821] campaign. [319451] Jonathan Shaw: The Department for Work and Pensions Jonathan Shaw: Please find as follows details of DWP’s performance management framework covers a range of current radio advertising campaigns, showing spend HR procedures including attendance, discipline and committed so far for financial year 2009-10. performance appraisals. The Department’s policy stipulates The figures represent the cost of buying media for that performance discussions should take place at least each campaign. All media buying is done through the quarterly but we do not hold information centrally on Central Office of Information, who show an average of how many actually take place. a 49 per cent. saving over rate-card media costs. The following table sets out the number of staff dismissed for unsatisfactory performance covering Each of these campaigns: attendance, discipline and work performance. Information supports a departmental objective or public service agreement; on the number of staff with an unsatisfactory year end has performance measures set; performance rating is only available from April 2007. is evaluated against those measures; and Numbers of staff who Numbers of staff with has proven effectiveness against its targets. have been dismissed for an ‘unsatisfactory’ ‘unsatisfactory year end performance Spend financial year 2009-10 performance’ (April rating (April 2007 to £ 2007 to March 2009) March 2009)

Targeting Benefit Thieves Child Support Agency 160 1 To help reduce the incidence of benefit fraud by 490,000 Central Services 91 11 stressing the risk of being caught Jobcentre Plus 1353 20 Pensions Disability 192 14 and Carers Service Planning and Saving for Later Life Total Number 1,796 46 To prepare for changes to the state pension coming 740,000 Total Percentage 1.6 0.04 into effect in April Departmental Training Backing Young Britain To motivate employers to provide more opportunities 230,000 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for young people (16 to 24) seeking jobs, work experience or skills development for Work and Pensions how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants in her Department received coaching in a foreign language in the last 12 months; what Find Your Way Back to Work expenditure her Department incurred in providing such To help people get back into work; specifically to 1,170,000 increase awareness and use of Jobcentre Plus online coaching; and in what languages such coaching was help and advice and promote effective job-seeking provided. [320537] Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not Pension Credit retained centrally. To obtain this information would To drive take-up of pension credit, in order to help 60,000 reduce pensioner poverty incur disproportionate cost. Departmental Voluntary Work

Departmental Illegal Immigrants Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what (a) schemes and (b) programmes her Department offers to its staff to enable them to Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work undertake volunteering work; and if she will make a and Pensions how many staff her Department and its statement. [320937] agencies have appointed who were later discovered to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320447] Jonathan Shaw: DWP offers the following schemes and programmes to its staff to enable them to undertake Jonathan Shaw: People employed to work in Government volunteer work: Departments and their agencies, either directly or through (a) Schemes a contractor, are required to satisfy requirements on Community 5000: Community 5000 is the “in work” identity, nationality and immigration status prior to the volunteering scheme open to all DWP staff at all levels. offer of employment. It supports individuals and teams to give practical skills My Department has no record of having employed and time to voluntary and community organisations an illegal immigrant in the last five years. that support the needs of DWP’s diverse customers. 231W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 232W

It is a free choice for the individual and is usually one specifically with the individual provision arrangements day of volunteering activity, treated as a day at work as within Government Departments and are therefore for regards hours of attendance and pay and conditions the individual departments to implement. These include etc. improving the monitoring and review processes operated, In the two years the scheme has been running over potentially in line with those delivered by Access to 10,000 days have been given in support of over 300 Work. organisations including the Citizens Advice Bureau, The report does however identify support that the The Salvation Army, Action for Blind People, Age Department for Work and Pensions can continue to Concern, Crisis and many more. provide to ministerial Government Departments to help Feedback has indicated that attendance on the scheme them improve their delivery of this process. We are has encouraged many staff to volunteer in their own committed to supporting these recommendations and time. will be working with ministerial Government Departments to communicate best practice and further advice and (b) Programmes guidance in order to improve their delivery of this Paid leave: For public and community activities paid support to their disabled staff. leave is available to staff as a right with an agreed entitlement, i.e: Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit Annual entitlement Activity Maximum number of days John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether there are circumstances in which Member local authority 18 the award of industrial injury disablement benefit may Mayor 24 result in a reduction in income for the recipient as a Magistrate 18 result of interaction with other benefits. [318947] School or college governor 4 Jury Service 1— Jonathan Shaw: Receipt of industrial injuries disablement 1 As required by the court. benefit should not result in an overall reduction in Staff are also allowed paid leave to serve in a voluntary income. organisation that provides a service to the local community, However, it is taken into account when assessing such as the Lifeboat Service, Mountain Rescue and entitlement to income-related benefits this is because Special Constabulary. industrial injuries disablement benefit is compensation Princes Trust paid for loss of faculty as a result of an industrial The DWP support individuals who wish to participate accident or disease and is not intended to meet specific in the Princes Trust as part of their personal development. additional costs arising from the disability. They are continually looking at how such programmes For all the income-related benefits—income support; and other opportunities e.g. secondments to the voluntary jobseeker’s allowance (income based); income-related sector etc. can be used as an alternative to traditional employment and support allowance; pension credit; learning and development methods. housing benefit; and council tax benefit—industrial Employment and Support Allowance injuries disablement benefit is taken fully into account when determining entitlement. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for In determining entitlement to incapacity benefit, Work and Pensions how long on average her contribution-based employment and support allowance Department took to process a claim for employment and contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance, industrial and support allowance in (a) Inverness, Nairn, injuries disablement benefit is not taken into account; Badenoch and Strathspey constituency, (b) the however, any unemployability supplement payable with Highlands, (c) Scotland and (d) England and Wales in industrial injuries disablement benefit is taken fully into account. each of the last 12 months. [320125] Industrial injuries disablement benefit is not taken Jonathan Shaw: The information is not available. into account in the award of disability living allowance or attendance allowance. Jobcentre Plus is introducing a target for employment and support allowance clearance times from April 2010 Redundancy: Public Sector and official statistics which will be used to monitor progress will be published in May. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Evaluation of Access to Work and Pensions what the (a) voluntary and (b) involuntary redundancy rates in the public sector were in each (i) region and (ii) industrial category in each Roger Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work year since 1997. [318686] and Pensions whether she plans to take forward the recommendations made in her Department’s research Mr. McFadden: I have been asked to reply. report no. 621, Evaluation of Access to Work: Ministerial Government Departments. [310270] Estimates of the total number of redundancies are available from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). However Jonathan Shaw: The research report contained a number there is no available disaggregation between voluntary of recommendations to improve the delivery of support and involuntary redundancies or a regional breakdown. previously financed by Access to Work within ministerial The LFS provides information for whether employees Government Departments. Many of the problems work in the public or private sectors. However individuals identified, and recommendations suggested, were concerned recently made redundant are instead classified according 233W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 234W to the industrial group of their previous job. The industrial (2) what estimate she has made of the (a) number group ’public administration, education and health’ and (b) proportion of claimants of (i) incapacity may act as a very broad approximation of the public benefit and (ii) employment and support allowance in sector. Although a large fraction of employees in and each main disease group. [319174] redundancies from the this industrial group are likely to be in the public sector, private sector firms also operate Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 26 February]: To within this industry whilst there are also public sector qualify for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, employees in other sectors. claimants have to undertake a medical assessment of BIS estimates of redundancies from public incapacity for work called the personal capability administration, education and health and all other industries assessment. Therefore, the medical condition recorded are provided in the third and fourth columns of Table 1 on the claim form does not in itself confer entitlement for the first quarter of each year since 1999, the earliest to benefit. This means that the decision for a customer date available. These figures should only be treated as who has claimed incapacity benefit/severe disablement indicative as the LFS is a self classification survey allowance would be based on their ability to carry out a completed by individuals. Some individuals are unlikely range of activities in the personal capability assessment. to identify exactly the industry in which they work. Causes of incapacity are based on the International The second column of Table 1 reports Office for Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, published by National Statistics published figures for total economy-wide the World Health Organisation. Data by medical conditions redundancy rates. These do not exactly match the other is not yet available for employment and support allowance. columns due to missing values in the industrial classification The available information is in the table. of redundancies. Incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants by published diagnosis group Great Britain and abroad—August 2009 Table 1: First quarter redundancy rates 1997-2009. Not seasonally adjusted. Proportion of all Industrial breakdown Total diagnosis ONS total first quarter redundancy Public administration, All other Certain infectious and parasitic 16,500 0.7 rates education and health industries diseases Neoplasms 31,130 1.4 1997 7.0 — — Diseases of the blood and blood 3,760 0.2 1998 7.4 — — forming organs and certain 1999 8.8 1.50 11.40 diseases involving the immune mechanism 2000 7.8 0.97 10.32 Endocrine, nutritional and 32,690 1.4 2001 6.5 1.39 8.48 metabolic diseases 2002 8.4 1.24 11.11 2003 7.3 1.35 9.65 Mental and behavioural 989,610 43.0 Disorders 2004 5.9 0.89 7.97 Diseases of the nervous System 153,540 6.7 2005 5.6 0.99 7.61 Diseases of the eye and adnexa 17,870 0.8 2006 5.9 1.20 8.06 Diseases of the ear and mastoid 9,780 0.4 2007 6.1 1.44 8.15 process 2008 4.7 1.37 6.21 Diseases of the circulatory system 112,880 4.9 2009 11.8 1.36 16.50 Diseases of the respiratory system 4,700 0.2 Source: Diseases of the digestive system 33,830 1.5 ONS Economic and Labour Market Statistics (column 2) and BIS analysis of Labour Force Survey (columns 3 and 4). The data is not seasonally adjusted Diseases of the skin and 13,490 0.6 although there are seasonal variations in the number of redundancies. subcutaneous system Diseases of the musculoskeletal 392,520 17.1 Social Security Benefits: Disabled system and connective tissue Diseases of the genitourinary 15,600 0.7 system Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pregnancy, childbirth and the 1,460 0.1 and Pensions how many and what proportion of puerperium Certain conditions originating in 20 0.0 claimants of (a) incapacity benefit and (b) severe the perinatal period disablement allowance have left the benefit for Congenital malformations, 24,830 1.1 employment in each of the last five years. [318796] deformations and chromosomal abnormalities Symptoms, signs and abnormal 262,380 11.4 Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 25 February 2010]: clinical and laboratory findings, The Department does not have the data highlighting not elsewhere classified the destinations of off-flows from incapacity benefits. Injury, poisoning and certain 110,080 4.8 One of the primary reasons for this is that not everyone other consequences of external causes leaving benefits tells the Department their destination. Factors influencing health status 30,600 1.3 The Department has carried out research into other and contact with health services sources of information on destinations, but the results Notes: so far are not sufficiently complete for regular publication. 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 and proportions to one decimal place. 2 Data published at http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/tabtool.asp Source: Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100 per cent data. and Pensions (1) what the primary work limiting condition was for claimants of (a) incapacity benefit Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (b) employment and support allowance in the and Pensions pursuant to the written ministerial latest period for which information is available; [319023] statement of 25 February 2010, Official Report, 235W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 236W column 84WS, on exportability of disability benefits, when it is most needed. Without this commitment, what estimate she has made of the number of the recent negative growth in the retail prices index claimants who lost entitlement to (a) carer’s would have meant that this benefit would not have allowance, (b) the disability living allowance higher increased in 2010. care component and (c) attendance allowance when The information requested is in the table. they moved to another European Economic Area Number of cases in payment and average weekly payment of attendance country or to Switzerland between 8 March 2001 and allowance in the Dundee, East constituency in August 2009 18 October 2007; and what estimate she has made of Attendance allowance Number/£ the total monetary value of such payments (i) since 18 October 2007 and (ii) in each of the next three years. Number of cases in payment 2,590 [320159] Average weekly amount paid (£) 61.11 Notes: 1. Number of cases in payment rounded to the nearest 10. Jonathan Shaw: The European Court of Justice (ECJ) 2. Average weekly amount paid is rounded to the nearest penny. decided in October 2007 that the disability benefits 3. Total number of attendance allowance cases in payment excludes people with (disability living allowance care component, attendance entitlement where payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. allowance and carer’s allowance) are sickness benefits Source: and may be paid to people who leave the UK to live Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and Pensions elsewhere in the European Economic Area or Switzerland Longitudinal Study. providing certain conditions are met. This includes a Social Security Benefits: Na h-Eileanan an Iar requirement that customers making a new claim have been in the UK for 26 weeks out of the past 52 weeks. After careful consideration we have decided to take a Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Work different approach on cases where people lost entitlement and Pensions how many people were in receipt of to a disability benefit when they moved to another EEA attendance allowance in Na h-Eileanan an Iar state or Switzerland before 18 October 2007 (the date of constituency in the latest period for which figures are the ECJ judgment) but no earlier than 8 March 2001. available; and what the average weekly payment was of that allowance in that constituency in that period. We accept that these people will have been in the UK [319014] for 26 out of the previous 52 weeks when they left the UK. We therefore no longer require that they should Jonathan Shaw: Attendance allowance provides an satisfy this condition at the date they seek reinstatement, important non-contributory, non-income-related and providing they continued to meet the other relevant tax free cash contribution towards the extra costs of domestic and EU law eligibility requirements throughout severely disabled people. The Government are committed the period their claim was disallowed. Payment will be to providing real help to disabled people, particularly considered from 18 October 2007. through the early stages of economic recovery. This is We do not have the information in the form requested. why the Chancellor announced in the December 2009 We currently hold data on 4,000 to 5,000 people who pre-Budget report that attendance allowance would be have moved to another EEA member state since 2002 increased by 1.5 per cent.—bringing forward help when and lost entitlement to a disability benefit. We estimate it is most needed. Without this commitment, the recent that the total monetary value of payments to these negative growth in the retail prices index would have cases, from 18 October 2007 to the end of March 2010, meant that this benefit would not have increased in could be between £30 million and £40 million. In 2010-11 2010. the cost could be between £12 million and £15 million, The information requested is in the table. reducing to between £10 and £13 million and £8 to Number of cases in payment and average weekly payment of attendance £11 million in 2011-12 and 2012-13 respectively. allowance in the Na h-Eileanan an Iar constituency in August 2009 However, the data we hold may not be complete. We Attendance allowance Number/£ will monitor the numbers of people seeking payment of benefits they had earlier lost and will revise our estimates Number of cases in payment 1,150 as necessary. Average weekly amount paid (£) 60.55 Notes: 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Social Security Benefits: Dundee 2. Average amounts are rounded to the nearest penny. Source: Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Longitudinal Study. Work and Pensions how many people resident in Dundee East constituency are in receipt of attendance Social Security Benefits: Young People allowance; and how much on average they receive in attendance allowance each week. [319567] Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many individuals aged under Jonathan Shaw: Attendance allowance provides an 25 years old commenced a claim for (a) incapacity important non-contributory, non-income-related and benefit, (b) work-related employment and support tax free cash contribution towards the extra costs of allowance and (c) support group employment in each severely disabled people. The Government are committed of the last four quarters for which figures are available. to providing real help to disabled people, particularly [318668] through the early stages of economic recovery. This is why the Chancellor announced in the December 2009 Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 25 February 2010]: pre-Budget report that attendance allowance would be The available information is provided in the tables. increased by 1.5 per cent.—bringing forward help Information on the number of new claims from those 237W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 238W under 25 years old for employment and support allowance Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance claimants under 25 years— broken down into work-related employment group and August 1997 to August 2009 support group is not available. To compile the data and Claimants under 25 years quality assure it could only be done at disproportionate August 2004 179,020 costs. August 2005 173,140 Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance on-flows Great Britain and August 2006 167,750 abroad August 2007 168,460 Quarter All ages Under 25 August 2008 164,320 November 2008 156,540 November 2008 112,430 20,630 February 2009 135,180 February 2009 16,800 2,870 May 2009 120,990 May 2009 14,980 2,250 August 2009 110,130 Aug 2009 11,900 1,240 Notes: Notes: 1. August 1999 onwards data rounded to nearest 10. 1. On-flows in the quarter is the total number of spells on incapacity benefit/severe 2. Data for August 1997 to August 1998 has been derived by applying 5 per cent. disablement allowance that commenced within the quarter. proportions to 100 per cent. Longitudinal Study totals and rounded to the A person may flow on and then off the benefit more than once during the nearest hundred. quarter. Does not include approximately eight per cent of short duration 3. Severe disablement allowance replaced by incapacity benefit (youth) provisions on-flows every quarter. from April 2001. 2. From 6 April 2001 no new claims for severe disablement benefit were 4. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit for new accepted. claims from October 2008. 3. Incapacity benefit generally applies to people of working age although a 5. Figures for the final four quarters do not include employment and support small number of claimants are over state pension age. allowance 4. Figures rounded to the nearest ten. Sources: 5. Some additional disclosure controls have been applied. August 1997-August 1998: DWP Longitudinal Study 5 per cent. data Source: August 1999 onwards: DWP Longitudinal Study 100 per cent. data Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study Employment and support claimants under 25 years—November 2008 to August Employment and support allowance on-flows Great Britain and abroad 2009 Quarter All ages Under 25 Claimants under 25 years

November 2008 54,150 10,150 November 2008 9,770 February 2009 141,320 24,960 February 2009 29,470 May 2009 160,740 28,310 May 2009 46,200 August 2009 164,910 31,150 August 2009 (provisional) 59,740 Notes: Notes: 1. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income 1. Figures rounded to the nearest 10. support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October 2. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit for new 2008. claims from October 2008. 2. Data relating to employment and support allowance complies with national Source: statistics standard however this is a new benefit using a new data source which DWP Longitudinal Study 100 per cent. data. may not have reached a steady state in terms of operational processing and retrospection. 3. Figures rounded to the nearest ten. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 4. Some additional disclosure controls have been applied. Source: and Pensions what the quarterly off-flows from Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. employment and support allowance have been since its inception, broken down by reason for termination. [317943] Unemployment Benefits Jonathan Shaw: The information is not available. Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many claimants of (a) incapacity benefit and (b) employment and support Unemployment Benefits: Medical Examinations allowance aged under 25 years old there were in (i) each year since 1997 and (ii) each of the last four quarters for which figures are available. [316976] Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department has paid to healthcare companies for conducting capability Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is in the assessments in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland since following tables. These figures reflect the numbers of 27 October 2008. [317757] claimants of incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance and employment and support allowance aged under 25 who have claimed an incapacity benefit. Jonathan Shaw: The cost of conducting the medical assessment process associated with employment and Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance claimants under 25 years— support allowance is £51.07 million covering the period August 1997 to August 2009 from 27 October 2008 up to 22 February 2010. This Claimants under 25 years covers the full costs of the medical assessments including work focused health related assessments, gathering August 1997 161,900 information from customers and health care professionals, August 1998 154,600 necessary investments in information technology and August 1999 164,190 infrastructure and set-up costs. August 2000 168,810 August 2001 172,460 The contract is provided on a national basis. A separate August 2002 173,520 cost of providing medical services for Scotland is not August 2003 176,540 available. 239W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 240W

Work Capability Assessment the CMA, the requirements that no conditions or warnings be attached to registration and that the doctor must Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Work have a minimum of three years post registration experience, and Pensions whether employees of ATOS Medical may be waived. Ltd contracted to carry out work capability Atos nurses must be fully registered (level 1) registered assessments are required to have diagnostic experience general nurses without current or previous restrictions relating to (a) illnesses with complex and varied or cautions with the Nursing and Midwifery Council. symptoms and (b) mental health. [318178] In addition they must have at least three years post full registration experience. In individual cases, solely at the Jonathan Shaw: Atos Healthcare doctors and nurses discretion of the CMA, the requirements that no cautions are specifically trained to provide decision making be attached to registration and that the nurse must have authorities with independent, accurate and authoritative a minimum of three years post registration experience, advice and reports on the effects of disability. may be waived. The DWP chief medical adviser approves health care JUSTICE professionals to carry out assessments. Approval is dependent on strict recruitment criteria, completion of Fraud: Convictions a course of training in disability assessment medicine approved by the chief medical adviser and evidence of Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for satisfactory performance. Justice pursuant to the answer of 1 March 2010, Official Report, column 925W, on crime convictions, Atos Healthcare doctors must be fully registered how many of the convictions in Table 6 placed in the with the General Medical Council without current or Library, relating to fraud and forgery in Greater previous restrictions, conditions or warnings and hold London and England and Wales, were of offenders a licence to practice from the date the GMC issues aged (a) 10 or 11, (b) from 12 to 14, (c) from 15 to 17, licences. In addition they must have at least three years (d) from 18 to 20 and (e) 21 years old and more. post full registration (GMC or EEA—European [321303] Economic Area equivalent) experience as a minimum. Alternatively for non EU graduates three years post full Claire Ward: The available information from 1997 registration experience in the doctors native country is to 2008 (latest available) is given in the following required. In individual cases, solely at the discretion of tables.

Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for fraud and forgery by age group in Greater London and England and Wales, from 1997 to 20081, 2 Greater London3 Number of offenders Age group 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

10to11—— 1—— 1———— 5 1 12 to 14 13 10 16 13 7 13 8 13 6 12 25 6 15 to 17 110 115 153 144 211 194 161 130 115 75 94 93 18 to 20 336 367 425 453 452 463 414 399 359 262 272 289 21 and 2,686 3,007 2,789 2,728 2,417 2,838 3,122 3,233 3,220 3,331 4,297 4,107 over Total 3,145 3,499 3,384 3,338 3,087 3,509 3,705 3,775 3,700 3,680 4,693 4,496

England and Wales Number of offenders Age group 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20084

10 to ——6326114263 11 12 to 82 91 86 92 78 98 78 83 70 62 87 47 14 15 to 724 872 988 922 933 842 732 678 614 537 583 469 17 18 to 2,171 2,495 2,866 2,638 2,584 2,331 2,146 1,977 1,785 1,444 1,435 1,409 20 21 and 14,030 16,299 16,360 15,573 14,686 14,867 15,064 15,405 15,981 16,145 17,824 17,895 over Total 17,007 19,757 20,306 19,228 18,283 18,144 18,021 18,144 18,454 18,190 19,935 19,823 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Includes Metropolitan and City of London police force areas. 4 Excludes convictions for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. 241W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 242W

Illegal Immigrants assaulting an immigration officer and (iv) trafficking people for exploitation in each year since 1998. [321258] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Claire Ward: The requested information is provided Justice how many people have been (a) convicted of in the following table. The total number sentenced has and (b) received the maximum available prison been supplied in lieu of the number convicted; the sentence or fine for (i) entering the UK in breach of a numbers convicted and sentenced in a year may not deportation order or without leave, (ii) remaining in the match due to lags in time between conviction and UK after leave to enter or remain had expired, (iii) sentencing.

Total persons given a maximum fine and maximum sentence, 1998 to 2008 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Non-citizen entering UK in breach of a deportation order1 Persons sentenced to 10000000000 maximum fine (£5,000) Persons sentenced to 00001101101 maximum custodial sentence (6 months) Total sentenced 452166354711

Non citizen entering UK without leave1

Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum fine (£5,000)

Persons sentenced to 000011669822 maximum custodial sentence (6 months)

Total sentenced 7 15 14 23 36 32 18 24 38 8 11

Non citizen having only a limited leave remaining in UK beyond the time limit1

Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum fine (£5,000)

Persons sentenced to 00001010311 maximum custodial sentence (6 months)

Total sentenced 051435135534

Non citizen failing to observe conditions of leave1

Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum fine (£5,000)

Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum custodial sentence (6 months)

Total sentenced 55281211101

Non citizen who enters UK as a member of a crew of a ship or aircraft and who is required to leave on the ship or aircraft remains in the UK beyond the time allowed1

Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum fine (£5,000)

Persons sentenced to 00000020010 maximum custodial sentence (6 months)

Total sentenced 00000140014 243W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 244W

Total persons given a maximum fine and maximum sentence, 1998 to 2008 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Non citizen failing to comply with requirements to report to a Medical Officer or to submit to a test or examination required by such an officer1 Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum fine (£5,000) Persons sentenced to 00000000000 maximum custodial sentence (6 months) Total sentenced 00010000000

Assaulting a designated immigration officer exercising Section 2 detention powers2 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 maximum fine (£5,000) Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (6 months) Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0

Assaulting an immigration officer2 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 maximum fine (£5,000) Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (6 months) Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0

Trafficking into the UK for sexual exploitation3,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 2 0 sentences Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0096911

Trafficking within the UK for sexual exploitation3,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 0 sentences Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0039513

Trafficking out of the UK for sexual exploitation3,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 0 sentences Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 000010

Trafficking people into the UK for the purpose of exploitation4,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 sentences Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 2 3 0 0 245W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 246W

Total persons given a maximum fine and maximum sentence, 1998 to 2008 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Trafficking people within the UK for the purpose of exploitation4,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 sentences Total convicted n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 2 0 0

Trafficking people out of the UK4,5 Persons sentenced to n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 maximum custodial sentence (14 years) Indeterminate n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 0 0 0 sentences Total sentenced n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 0 0 1 8 0 n/a = Not applicable 1 Offences under Immigration Act 1971 2 Offences under UK Borders Act 2007 3 Offences under Sexual Offences Act 2003 4 Offences under Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants) Act 2004 5 These figures have been drawn from the courts proceedings database and as such may differ from any figures supplied by the UK human trafficking centre which are drawn from the Police National Computer Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. 2. These data have been taken from the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings database. These data are presented on the principal offence basis. Where an offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences the principal offence is the one for which the statutory maximum is most severe.

Legal Aid are in principle eligible for legal aid as a result of restraint proceedings are not available. Some information may be held on individuals who have actually applied Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for for legal aid, but this is not held centrally and could be Justice for what reason his Department’s review into provided only at disproportionate cost. the Graduated Fees Scheme has not been conducted on the originally proposed timetable. [320745] National Offender Management Service: Manpower Claire Ward: In 2005 the Government gave a commitment to review specific aspects of the Advocate’s Graduated Fee Scheme (AGFS), including payments for ’cracked’ Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice trials and guilty pleas. However, this commitment was (1) how many staff were employed in (a) Prison overtaken by Lord Carter’s Review of Legal Aid Service area offices and (b) regional offender Procurement, published in 2006. This led to a wide management offices on 1 January 2008; [320855] ranging revision of the existing AGFS framework, (2) how many persons were employed by each implemented in April 2007. In light of these recent director of offender management within the National changes, the Government do not currently intend to Offender Management Service on the most recent date conduct any further review of the structure of the for which figures are available; [320856] AGFS, although they have recently consulted on changes to the rates payable under the AGFS. (3) how many persons were employed in (a) the Head Office and (b) each regional office of the National Offender Management Service on 31 Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for December of each year since 2004. [320858] Justice how many people were eligible for legal aid as a result of their assets being frozen in each of the last five years. [320746] Maria Eagle: Information on the number of staff employed in Regional Offender Management Offices in January 2008 is not available. At that time the staff Claire Ward: When assessing financial eligibility, the reported to the Home Office but the records are no Legal Services Commission (LSC) does not take into longer available and would require a substantial account assets frozen under a restraint order. Where reactivation exercise that would entail disproportionate someone is subject to restraint procedures a living allowance cost, to obtain. is usually made available, and this is taken into account in assessing their financial eligibility.The LSC’s management The closest available data relates to October 2008, information systems do not hold information on the when there were 451 staff in Prison Service area offices numbers of people subject to restraint proceedings, or and 119 staff in Regional Offender Management offices. on the living allowances each individual has been allowed The number of staff employed within each office is by the court, so figures for the number of people who provided in the following table: 247W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 248W

Staff employed within Director of Offender Management Offices, 31 December Staff employed within Director of Offender Management Offices, 31 December 2009 2009 Staff declared Staff declared Region Staff employed surplus1 Vacancies Region Staff employed surplus1 Vacancies

East Midlands 53 2 8 Total 483 61 114 East of England 50 1 14 1 Staff declared surplus are also included in the ‘Staff employed’ column. London 32 6 13 The process of change in the NOMS organisations in North East 40 5 2 the nine English regions and Wales in 2009, covered 576 North West 81 19 12 jobs and the new structure, which is now in place, has South East 98 8 23 reduced this number by 180 to 396. South West 31 8 14 Wales 26 0 12 The information for the national headquarters does West Midlands 38 6 13 not include staff reporting through the NOMS Shared Yorkshire and 35 6 3 Service Centre or area service teams who are based in Humberside prisons but organised on a regional basis.

Regional and National Headquarters 31 December 2004 to 2009 Region 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Area/Regional Office East Midlands 37 54 61 56 62 53 East of England 34 44 47 44 56 50 London 25 28 30 28 37 32 NorthEast 202838384140 North West 126 182 210 205 80 81 South East 125 143 127 116 121 98 South west 32 36 34 26 25 31 Wales 131619182726 West Midlands 49 48 54 42 34 38 Yorkshire and Humberside 39 48 55 29 35 35 Area/Regional Office Total 501 627 675 602 518 483

National Headquarters1 1906 1351 1398 1297 2207 2188 1 In 2005 a large number of staff transferred to the original NOMS headquarters, which was part of the core Home Office. The staff transferred back in 2008 when NOMS HQ was formed. These staff are not included in the table for die period when they were part of the core Home Office.

Prison Accommodation: Per Capita Costs Technology Supply Group in the latest period for which figures are available; and what estimate he has Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice made of the number of such telephones detected and whether his Department takes in to account the state not forwarded. [320859] pension costs of retired staff when calculating the cost Maria Eagle: The Government are committed to of a prison place in England and Wales. [320857] reducing the number of mobile phones in prisons. We have already strengthened the law through the Offender Maria Eagle: The annual cost per prison place is Management Act 2007, which made it an offence with a based on expenditure met by the National Offender penalty of up to two years’ imprisonment to bring a Management Service (NOMS) during the year. It does mobile phone or component into a prison. We are also not include the pension cost of staff who have already taking forward legislation through the Crime and Security retired, not the cost of the state retirement pension. Bill to criminalise the possession of devices, including The cost includes the expected cost of pension benefits mobile telephones within a prison without authorisation. accrued by staff employed during the year and also the Prisons in England and Wales are instructed to send additional cost arising from any staff who leave as part mobile phones and SIM cards found to a central unit of an early retirement programme during the year. and it is from this unit’s records that this answer is Present and past employees of NOMS receive pension based. The following table shows the total number of benefits covered by the provisions of the Principal Civil mobile phones and SIM cards that have been interrogated Service Pension Scheme (PCSPS) which is unfunded. over the last 12 months. Liability for payment of future benefits to retired staff The figures contained in the table have been drawn is a charge to the PCSPS. from administrative data systems. Although care is taken when processing data, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording Prisons: Mobile Phones system. These data are not subject to audit. The figures understate the actual number of finds, Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for because they do not include items retained by the police Justice how many illicit mobile telephones with or for evidential purposes and phones not submitted for without SIM cards detected in prisons in England other reasons. It is not always appropriate to send and Wales were forwarded to the National Dog phones to the central unit and some phones sent are not 249W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 250W interrogated. These have not been included in these Ethnicity of staff employed within young people’s estate1 figures. NOMS is putting in place new procedures to Operational Other 2 3 4 improve the accuracy of these statistics. Ethnic group managers Officers staff Total Percentage black 6.2 6.1 7.2 6.1 Tackling mobile phones in prison presents substantial and minority and increasing technological challenges, and .while the ethnic5 numbers of phones found clearly indicates the scale of 1 The establishments included in the totals are: Ashfield, Castington, Cookham Wood, Feltham, Hindley, Huntercombe, Parc, Stoke Heath, Warren the challenge, it is also a reflection of prisons’ increasing Hill, Werrington, Wetherby, Eastwood Park, Downview, New Hall, Foston success in finding them and better reporting. The following Hall. table shows the number of mobile phones and SIM 2 Governors are now known as operational managers. 3 Includes prison officers, senior officers and principal officers and prison cards that have been received from each of the prisons custody officers in contracted establishments. over the last 12 months. 4 Information for Ashfield could not be broken down by grade and so is included only in the total column. Hence the columns do not sum to the total. Mobile phones and SIM cards submitted to central unit, March 2009 to 5 Percentage recorded as black and minority ethnic of total with known February 2010 ethnicity. Mobile SIM

2009 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE March 304 323 Colombia: Human Rights Apr 363 357 May 353 377 Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for June 407 396 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the outcome July 376 425 was of his Department’s discussions with the August 476 393 Colombian government on the situation of members of September 355 345 the Nukak tribe camped near San Jose; and if he will make a statement. [320830] October 386 373 November 399 337 Chris Bryant: We have not had any discussions with December 350 325 the Colombian Government about the Nukak Maku 2010 tribe.

January 430 423 Departmental ICT February 459 479 Total 4658 4553 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Note: Each mobile phone and SIM card is counted as a separate item. information technology projects initiated by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies were cancelled prior Youth Custody: Manpower to completion in the last 12 months; and what the cost of each such project was to the public purse. [320426] Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many (a) governors, (b) officers and (c) Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office other staff in the youth secure estate are of each ethnic has not cancelled any significant information technology projects during the past five years. To provide more group. [321305] detailed information on small individual projects, including from across our network of posts, would incur Maria Eagle: Information on the ethnic group of disproportionate cost. staff in the youth secure estate is contained in the following table. The information refers to staff directly The Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not employed by the National Offender Management Service maintain centrally details of information technology and staff at Ashfield and Parc young offender institutions projects for its agencies. This information could be (YOI), which are operated by private contractors. Where provided only at disproportionate cost. a YOI is not entirely dedicated to holding young people Departmental Public Expenditure (15 to 17-year-olds) it is not possible to disaggregate the staffing and the entire staffing of the YOI has been Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for included in the answer. Obtaining information on non- Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the employed staff engaged in the young people’s estate is answer of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column not possible without incurring disproportionate cost. 214W, on departmental public expenditure, whether he Ethnicity of staff employed within young people’s estate1 expects there to be a shortfall between the estimated Operational Other 2 3 4 savings to be made by his Department and its agencies Ethnic group managers Officers staff Total in 2010-11 and the estimated loss to his Department’s Asian 0 44 57 102 budget for that year arising from exchange rate Black 4454198movements. [320808] Mixed 1 35 19 55 Other ethnic group 3 16 10 30 Chris Bryant [holding answer 5 March 2010]: Iam White 121 2,172 1,637 4,356 confident that on the basis of the measures my right Not declared 2 181 138 323 hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced in his Total 131 2,493 1,902 4,964 written statement to the House of 10 February 2010, 251W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 252W

Official Report, column 53WS, including those additional Mr. Keetch: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign elements of streamlining and cost-saving mentioned and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has there which have yet to be finalised, the Foreign and made of the progress of the government of Commonwealth Office will be able to continue to deliver Kazakhstan in implementing the commitments to a world-class and comprehensive diplomatic service for reform it made prior to its Chairmanship of the the UK within its departmental expenditure limit. Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe in 2010. [320861] EU Countries: Overseas Workers Chris Bryant: Kazakhstan has taken some limited Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign steps forward, but there have been developments, for and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made example in limiting media freedom, that have caused of the number of UK engineering construction concern. We have stressed to the Kazakhs the need to workers working under contract in other EU member live up to the obligations that relate to both its membership states in each of the last five years. [320923] and Chairmanship of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). On 14 January 2010, Chris Bryant: This information is not held centrally President Nazarbayev pledged to “pursue further political and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. liberalisation”. This was underlined by Kazakh Foreign Minister Saudabayev when he told my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in January that Kazakhstan would Israel: Courts Martial remain committed to the founding principles of the OSCE. We look forward to that being the case. We will Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for continue to support Kazakhstan’s efforts towards meeting Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he their OSCE commitments, and the challenges they face has received of the number of Palestinian children as Chair. being held by the Israeli authorities and facing trial in a military court. [320777] Mr. Keetch: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Mr. Ivan Lewis: According to Defence for Children made of the progress of the government of International, as of January 2010, there are currently Kazakhstan to date on the implementation of its 318 Palestinian children in Israeli detention. pledge to introduce greater democracy and The UK continues to make its position clear to both transparency in respect of (a) media freedom, (b) the Israelis and the Palestinians on a wide range of religious freedom, (c) internet law, (d) human rights human rights issues. This includes not only social and and (e) legislation; and if he will make a statement. economic rights but also the security and treatment of [320862] detainees, including juveniles. Chris Bryant: The Kazakhs have made some progress Kazakhstan: Politics and Government in the field of human rights, but further improvements are needed, as they themselves have recognised. Recent positive reforms include December 2009 legislation on Mr. Keetch: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign domestic violence and gender equality and a reduction and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the in the number of crimes carrying the death penalty. Government is taking to monitor the progress of the Non-governmental organisations (NGOs) are active and government of Kazakhstan in implementing the played a key role in developing Kazakhstan’s National commitments to reform made prior to its Human Rights Action Plan last year (the formation of Chairmanship of the Organisation for Security and which was supported by the UK). This Action Plan Co-operation in Europe in 2010. [320860] includes a comprehensive set of recommendations across the human rights spectrum, many with specific deadlines. Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary But concerns remain, including in respect of arbitrary and I have raised this issue with the Kazakhstan Foreign arrest and detention, the right to a fair trial and freedoms Minister in recent weeks. Our embassy in Astana, working of expression, assembly and of the media, and in specific closely with EU and other like-minded missions, closely cases such as Evgeny Zhovtis and Ramazan Yesergepov. evaluates political developments in Kazakhstan. Our There is also scope for improvements in the legislation embassy has also supported a project run by Freedom on elections, political parties and local government House and the Kazakhstan Coalition of non-governmental enacted in February 2009. organisations to monitor independently Kazakhstan’s performance against its Organisation for Security and February 2009 legislation introduced some improvements Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) commitments, including with regard to the media situation in Kazakhstan, including in respect of elections, political parties, media, local abolition of the registration requirement for television self-governance, and freedoms of assembly and conscience. and radio outlets. However, libel remains a criminal During the project, the Coalition provided regular briefings offence in Kazakhstan and related laws are used against to others in the international community to allow wider opposition media. In December 2009, a new privacy monitoring. The commitments made by Kazakhstan law was passed, which media NGOs state will place prior to the Chairmanship were in line with the international further constraints on investigative journalism. standards to which it had already signed up as a partner We are pleased that a restrictive law on Freedom of state of the OSCE. These commitments will continue to Conscience and Religious Organisations was rejected be monitored after Kazakhstan’s year as Chair comes by Kazakhstan’s Constitutional Council last year. We to an end. are concerned however that non-traditional religious 253W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 254W groups including Jehovah’s Witnesses, evangelical Christians Joan Ruddock: The Carbon Capture and Storage and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness Demonstration procurement is continuing in line with have experienced difficulties. our plans. The next stage of the competition is to The internet law, introduced in July 2009, has been announce which Bidders will be taken through to the strongly criticised both by the EU and by the Organisation Front End Engineering and Design (FEED) phase. We for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) expect to make an announcement on this shortly. Representative for Freedom of the Media, Miklos Haraszti, Departmental Electronic Equipment as not being in line with international standards or OSCE commitments. We most recently encouraged the Kazakhs to bring this law into line with international Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for standards during a meeting in London with Kazakhstan’s Energy and Climate Change how many (a) laptops, Deputy Foreign Minister on 29 January 2010. (b) desktop computers, (c) computer discs, (d) printers and (e) memory sticks have been (i) lost by Kazakhstan continues to participate in the human and (ii) stolen from his Department since its creation. rights dialogues established under the EU’s Central [321328] Asia Strategy, which supports good governance, the rule of law and human rights and to which the UK Joan Ruddock: The following items have been reported contributes views. We encouraged Kazakhstan to co-operate as lost or stolen from the Department since its creation: closely with the UN Human Rights Council’s Universal

Periodic Review earlier this year and will continue to Number emphasise the importance of a thorough response to Lost Stolen the recommendations raised. The UK and our international partners will continue to raise issues of concern with Laptops 1 1 the Kazakh authorities and urge them to press ahead Desktops 0 0 with reforms, many of which they themselves have Computer discs 0 0 identified as necessary. Printers 0 0 Memory sticks 1— 1— Members: Correspondence 1 We do not hold this information centrally. Both laptops had full disc encryption installed to Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for protect DECC information. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to reply to the letter of 19 January 2010 from the right Departmental ICT hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton on the Parliamentary delegation to Gaza. [319562] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what information David Miliband: The Foreign and Commonwealth technology projects initiated by his Department were Office did not receive my right hon. Friend’s letter until cancelled prior to completion in the last 12 months; 26 February 2010. We will reply to it as soon as possible. and what the cost of each such project was to the public purse. [320434]

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Joan Ruddock: No information technology projects initiated by DECC have been cancelled prior to completion Biofuels in the last 12 months.

Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Departmental Languages and Climate Change what meetings he has had with representatives of the biofuels industry on the Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State production of biofuels from used cooking oils since for Energy and Climate Change how many (a) October 2009. [320853] Ministers and (b) civil servants in his Department received coaching in a foreign language in the last 12 Joan Ruddock: DECC officials have had meetings months; what expenditure his Department incurred in with the following industry bodies where used cooking providing such coaching; and in what languages such oil derived transport biofuels or bioliquids for the generation coaching was provided. [320416] of heat and power were discussed: Four Rivers BioEnergy Inc.; North East of England Process Industry Cluster; Joan Ruddock: We have no central record of any Oil Firing Technical Association; Renewable Energy expenditure in the last 12 months on foreign language Association; and UK Sustainable Biofuels Association. training. Officials also attend the Department for Transport’s monthly Renewable Energy Directive Stakeholder Advisory Departmental Public Relations Group meetings with industry representatives where used cooking oil derived fuel is occasionally discussed. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Carbon Sequestration Department spent on news and public relations in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [311569] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he expects to Joan Ruddock: The cost of all DECC communications announce the winner of the first carbon capture and staff in 2008-09 (including press officers) was £512,000, storage demonstration scheme competition. [320316] but note that this relates to the period from October 255W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 256W

2008, as prior to this costs were divided between BIS Their analysis for non-renewable plant is set out in and DEFRA (the Departments from which DECC’s table 2 and include construction, operation and maintenance original teams were drawn), for which disaggregated costs and where applicable the cost of carbon allowances figures for DECC’s predecessor teams are not available. (EU ETS). Moreover, for nuclear, they also include the Costs from April 2009 to January 2010 (the latest date costs of decommissioning and waste. available) were £1,530,000. Table 2: Levelised cost estimates for non-renewable generation plant Between September 2008 and March 2009 DECC Technology Levelised cost (£/MWh) spent approximately £119,000 through public relations agencies on COFs rosters. In 2009-10, DECC plans to Coal-fired plant spend a total of approximately £90,000 on public relations. Coal (pulverised fuel)—central fuel 54 These figures include all PR expenditure incurred by the Department on the Act On CO2 campaign, including Gas-fired plant media relations activity and PR for roadshows. CCGT—central fuel 53 For details of campaign advertising media costs in 2008-09 and 2009-10 I refer the hon. Member to the Nuclear plant answer that I gave on 8 February 2010, Official Report, Nuclear 51 column 728W,to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps). It should be noted that the estimates of levelised costs for different types of electricity generation are highly Electricity sensitive to the assumptions used for capital costs, fuel and EU ETS allowance prices, operating costs, load Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for factor, and other drivers. In reality, there are large Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s uncertainties and ranges around these figures. latest estimate is of the cost of electricity in pence per Electricity Generation kWh provided by (a) coal combustion plants, (b) pulverised fuel steam plants, (c) open-cycle gas Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for turbines, (d) gas combustion plants, (e) nuclear fission Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of plants, (f) biomass combustion plants, (g) offshore 2 December 2009, Official Report, columns 818-19W, wind turbines, (h) onshore wind turbines and (i) wave on electricity generation: costs, if he will include in the and marine (hydroelectricity) plants; and if he will estimated levelised costs associated with 1MW of make a statement. [321340] electricity generated the level of subsidy provided for each different generating technology. [321403] Mr. Kidney: Work is ongoing to update the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s cost assumptions for Mr. Kidney: Onshore wind receives 1 Renewables different forms of generation. Obligation Certificate (ROC) per MWh and offshore The Government have carried out analysis on generation wind receives 1.5 ROCs per MWh. costs in recent years to inform policy decisions. Some of The predicted nominal value of a ROC in 2010 is these estimates were published as part of the Energy estimated to be worth £40.55, dropping to £39.34 in Review (2006): 2015 (based on 2008-09 figures). It should, however, be http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file32014.pdf noted that only about 80 per cent. of this value is likely The analysis underpinning Renewable Energy Strategy, to be passed to the generators through Power Purchase published in July 2009, used assumptions on the generating Agreements. costs of different renewable electricity generation Onshore and offshore wind will also receive a Levy technologies, full details of which are set out in Element Exemption Certificate worth £4.70 for each MWh of (2009) and Redpoint/Trilemma (2009), which are available electricity they generate (based on 2009-10 figures). on the DECC website. Energy Supply Table 1: Levelised cost estimates for renewable generation plant Technology Levelised cost (£/MWh) Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Wind generation plant Energy and Climate Change what methodology his Onshore wind 74-103 Department uses to calculate the level of expected Offshore wind 112-131 energy unserved. [320308]

Mr. Kidney: The Government published a paper setting Biomass plant out the methodology for expected energy unserved as Biomass 114-146 part of the Energy Markets Outlook Report in October 2007. This is available on the BIS website at: Wave and tidal stream http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file41831.pdf Wave 240 Tidal stream 191 Energy: Prices

The Committee on Climate Change (CCC) have Dr. Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for published estimated levelised costs (£/MWh, in 2008 Energy and Climate Change what guidance his prices) associated with 1 MWh of electricity generated, Department provides to energy customers switching for their December 2008 report: suppliers for them to avoid tariffs that become more http://www.theccc.org.uk/pdf/TSO-ClimateChange.pdf expensive during the changeover period. [320815] 257W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 258W

Mr. Kidney: Ofgem is responsible for the regulation Mr. Kidney: The amounts of coal, oil and gas of gas and electricity supply, including the rules governing imported from and exported to Russia by the UK for switching supplier. Customers switching supplier may each year between 2004 and 2008 are shown in the cancel the agreement within seven working days after following table. receiving the confirmation letter from the new supplier, or seven days after signing a contract face to face with a Thousand tonnes sales agent. 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Customers may also exercise their right to transfer Coal supply to a different tariff or supplier without having to Imports 9,932 17,521 22,285 20,106 21,102 pay the increased charges providing they inform their Exports 0 0 0 0 0 new supplier within 20 working days of receiving the Net imports 9,932 17,521 22,285 20,106 21,102 notification of a price change, and then start the switching process within a further 15 working days. Suppliers must include a reminder of these rights in the price Primary oil notifications sent to customers. Imports 9,199 5,649 10,344 8,641 8,308 Exports 0 0 0 0 0 Fossil Fuels: Imports Net imports 9,199 5,649 10,344 8,641 8,308

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Petroleum products Energy and Climate Change what the (a) gross and (b) net quantity of (i) coal, (ii) oil and (iii) gas Imports 1,810 1,190 1,186 1,282 1,410 imported into the UK was in each of the last five years. Exports 50 0 0 4 0 Net imports 1,760 1,190 1,186 1,278 1,410 [320323] Mr. Kidney: The amounts of coal, oil and gas imported Any UK gas sourced from Russia is negligible. and exported by the UK for each year between 2004 and 2008 are shown in the following tables. Fuel Poverty Coal Thousand tonnes Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made of the number of households in (a) England Imports 36,153 43,968 50,529 43,365 43,875 and (b) the UK who are in fuel poverty in 2010. Exports 622 536 443 544 599 [320321] Net 35,531 43,432 50,086 42,821 43,276 imports Mr. Kidney: We will be producing and publishing Primary oil projections for England in 2010 later this year. Thousand tonnes 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Housing: Insulation

Imports 62,517 58,885 59,443 57,357 60,074 Exports 64,504 54,099 50,195 50,999 48,410 Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Net -1,987 4,786 9,248 6,358 11,664 Energy and Climate Change how many houses have imports been insulated in Bolton under Government schemes in each of the last five years. [321189] Petroleum products Thousand tonnes Mr. Kidney: The three principal Government schemes 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 to encourage take-up of energy efficiency measures in Great Britain are Warm Front, the Decent Homes Imports 18,545 22,512 26,828 25,093 23,919 programme, and the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target Exports 30,495 29,722 29,009 30,017 28,811 (CERT). Table A shows the number of homes in Bolton Net -11,950 -7,210 -2,181 -4,921 -4,892 imports to be insulated under Warm Front since the scheme began in 2000.

Gas Local authority and housing association homes are GigaWatt hours assisted through the Government-funded Decent Homes 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 programme, as well as councils’ own capital resources. Table B shows the capital investment allocated by Imports 133,033 173,328 244,029 338,026 407,054 Government to Bolton council for their housing stock Exports 114,112 96,181 120,591 123,158 122,670 since 2001 through Decent Homes. Net 18,921 77,147 123,438 214,868 284,384 imports CERT is an obligation on energy suppliers to achieve reductions in the level of CO2 emitted by the domestic Fossil Fuels: Russia sector. It and its predecessor schemes have delivered some 7.5 million key insulation measures to homes in Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Great Britain since 2002. Energy suppliers are not currently Energy and Climate Change what the (a) gross and required to report at local authority level where they (b) net quantity of (i) coal, (ii) oil and (iii) gas have installed measures. The Department is currently imported from Russia was in each of the last five years. finalising agreements with the suppliers and the Energy [320325] Saving Trust which will enable the reporting of the 259W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 260W number of CERT measures professionally installed to a Table B: Number of LA dwellings that received insulation, and associated local authority level. It will also allow local authorities expenditure, Bolton 2005-09 to sign agreements with the Energy Saving Trust to see Dwellings Expenditure (£000) energy efficiency delivery in their local areas. 2008 1,812 482 Table A: Number of houses in Bolton that have been insulated through the Warm 2009 89 24 Front Scheme in the last five years Source: 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-101 Annual returns to Communities and Local Government

Cavity Wall 212 568 500 412 249 Insulation Insulation Draught 162 485 492 293 189 proofing Loft 268 621 632 525 323 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Insulation Energy and Climate Change whether he has made a Total 642 1674 1624 1230 761 recent estimate of the number and proportion of 1 Up to 28 February 2010. homes with (a) no, (b) less than 50 mm of, (c) Source: EAGA 2010 between 50 and 99 mm of, (d) between 100 and 149 mm of, (e) between 150 and 199 mm of and (f) Table B: Number of LA dwellings that received insulation, and associated 200 mm or more of loft insulation. [320318] expenditure, Bolton 2005-09 Dwellings Expenditure (£000) Joan Ruddock: The most recent assessment of loft 2005 1,276 299 insulation in homes was undertaken for the English 2006 102 24 Housing Survey in 2008. The relevant data from that 2007 2,378 559 survey are summarized in the following table:

Insulation status No insulation Less than 50mm 50 up to 99mm 100 up to 149mm 150 up to 199mm 200mm or more

Thousands of 670 532 4,179 6,913 2,759 4,1685 dwellings Percentage of 3.0 2.4 18.8 31.1 12.4 21.1 dwellings

Insulation: Government Assistance Mr. Kidney: The Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Office for Civil Nuclear Security do not, and have no plans to, provide personnel or resources Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Joint Research Centre (JRC) laboratory in Karlsruhe. Energy and Climate Change how many homes have had insulation improvements funded by his The Institute for Transuranium Elements (JRC-ITU) Department since 11 September 2008. [320306] in Karlsruhe is one of seven institutes of the JRC that functions as a reference centre of science and technology for the European Union. Funding for the JRC-ITU is Joan Ruddock: The Warm Front Scheme provides provided by the European Commission (EC). The EC loft and cavity wall insulation and draught proofing has allocated ¤517 million for the nuclear activities of for vulnerable households. The scheme records the the JRC under Euratom Framework Programme 7. measures delivered. Some homes will have received more than one insulation measure. The following table shows the number of insulation measures delivered by Natural Gas the scheme between 11 September 2008 and 28 February 2010. Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Total insulation installed—11 September 2008 to 28 February 2010 Energy and Climate Change (1) what the (a) lowest Insulation measure Number installed and (b) highest daily volume of UK continental shelf Cavity Wall Insulation 28,209 natural gas production has been since 1 September Draught proofing 33,776 2008; [320309] Loft Insulation 47,230 (2) what the (a) lowest and (b) highest monthly Total 109,215 volume of UK continental shelf natural gas Note: production has been since 1 September 2008. [320310] A proportion of these measures were funded by contributions from energy suppliers as part of the CERT programme. Mr. Kidney: In the period 1 September 2008 to 31 December 2009 (the latest month for which data are Joint Research Centre available), the (a) lowest monthly volume of UK continental shelf gross gas production was 3.4 billion Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for cubic metres in August 2009, and (b) the highest was Energy and Climate Change whether (a) his 6.8 billion cubic metres in January 2009. Department and (b) the Office for Civil Nuclear The Department for Energy and Climate change Security will provide (i) personnel and (ii) resources to collects monthly data from the gas operators and it is the Euratom/Joint Research Centre Research not, therefore, possible to identify the lowest and highest Laboratory in Karlsruhe. [321123] daily volumes of gas production. 261W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 262W

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Nuclear Power: Research Energy and Climate Change what the gas balancing alert trigger level was for each day between 1 and Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for 19 January 2010. [320322] Energy and Climate Change what research his Department has undertaken into the economic Mr. Kidney: The gas balancing alert trigger levels are viability of installing, maintaining and set by National Grid and are published on the National decommissioning new nuclear plants without public Grid Website, under Notices, at: funding; and if he will make a statement. [321339] http://marketinformation.natgrid.co.uk/gas/ DataItemExplorer.aspx Mr. Kidney: The White Paper on Nuclear Power (2008) states that Natural Gas: Electricity “it will be for energy companies to fund, develop and build new nuclear power stations in the UK, including meeting the full costs of decommissioning and their full share of waste management Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for costs”. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Section 2 of the White Paper includes more detail on of the percentage of UK electricity likely to be the Government’s assessment of the economics of nuclear supplied from renewable sources in each year to 2015. power. [320365] As announced in the 2009 pre-Budget report, the Department of Energy and Climate Change and HM Mr. Kidney: The following table gives the percentage Treasury are taking forward work to ensure the electricity of electricity generation from renewable sources in the market framework can most effectively deliver a fair central scenario from the Low Carbon Transition plan. deal for the consumer and the low-carbon investment needed in the long-term. This work will report back Percentage with initial findings at Budget 2010. 2010 7.0 2011 7.6 Public Bodies: Energy 2012 8.6 2013 10.6 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014 13.3 Energy and Climate Change how many officials are 2015 16.4 employed by the (a) Coal Authority, (b) Committee on Radioactive Waste Management, (c) Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, (d) UK Energy Research Natural Gas: Imports Partnership and (e) Civil Nuclear Police Authority. [320319] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the Mr. Kidney: The number of officials employed by UK’s gas demand was met from (a) imports via a these organisations is set out in the table: pipeline, (b) imports via liquefied natural gas terminals and (c) domestic production in the most Organisation Number of employees recent year for which figures are available. [320511] Coal Authority 172 Nuclear Decommissioning 1355 Mr. Kidney: The Department for Energy and Climate Authority change collects and publishes monthly data on production, Civil Nuclear Police Authority 2998 imports and exports of gas in tables ET 4.2 and ET 4.3 1 Executives/staff plus eight non executives on DECC’s energy statistics website: 2 Employees - made up of 837 police officers and 141 police staff with an additional 20 agency/staff. In addition, the chairman and two independent http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/source/gas/ members of the board are appointed by the Secretary of State for Energy and gas.aspx Climate Change and are not included in the employee figures but are on the The tables mentioned above contain provisional 2009 payroll of the CNPA data which show that gross demand (which includes gas The Committee on Radioactive Waste Management exported) was met as follows: is an advisory body to the UK Government and devolved (a) Imports by pipeline 32 per cent. administrations and does not employ any officials directly. The Committee’s Secretariat consists of three to four (b) Imports via liquefied natural gas terminals 10 per cent. people employed by the Department of Energy and (c) Domestic production 58 per cent. Climate Change. The Energy Research Partnership is a partnership Natural Gas: Storage between, government, industry and research organisations. No civil servants (officials) are employed by ERP. The Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for ERP’s Secretariat is supported by a civil servant on a Energy and Climate Change what the (a) capacity and part-time basis. (b) maximum withdrawal rate is of each UK gas storage site. [320303] Renewable Energy

Mr. Kidney: The Government do not publish detailed Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for technical information on each storage site. However, the Energy and Climate Change what proportion of (a) latest information on both the capacity and maximum heating and (b) domestic heating in the UK came from deliverability by UK gas storage site can be found in renewable sources in the latest period for which figures National Grid’s 2009 Ten Year Statement. are available. [320360] 263W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 264W

Joan Ruddock: In 2008 renewable heat accounted for Budget (£ million) 1.0 per cent. of non-electrical heat production in the UK, on a net calorific value basis (7.4 terawatt hours 2010-11 345 out of 713 terawatt hours). There is no available breakdown The budget for 2011-12 is yet to be announced. on the split between domestic and non-domestic renewable heat production, but estimates suggest that the proportion Wind Power is similar for domestic heating. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether his Department Warm Front Scheme has undertaken research into the cost of (a) installing and (b) maintaining (i) off-shore and (ii) on-shore Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for wind turbines in relation to (A) their capacity factor Energy and Climate Change with reference to and (B) the price of electricity produced in each of paragraph 7.39, page 127, of the pre-Budget report, these ways; and if he will make a statement. [320977] Cm 7747, what the budget for the Warm Front scheme is in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-20, (c) 2010-11 and (d) Mr. Kidney: The analysis underpinning Renewable Energy Strategy, published in July 2009, used assumptions 2011-12. [320369] on the generating costs of different electricity generating Mr. Kidney: The following tables show the actual technologies to 2020, full details of which are set out in spend in 2008-09 and the budget in 2009-10 and 2010-11 Element (2009) and Redpoint/Trilemma (2009), which for the Warm Front scheme: are available on the DECC website. The first table as follows summarises these generation cost assumptions Actual spend (£ million) with respect to wind generation in 2009, according to load factor assumptions. 2008-09 397.4 In their work for the Renewable Energy Strategy (2009), Redpoint also calculated levelised costs for onshore Budget (£ million) and offshore wind for the 2009 base capital expenditure 2009-10 369 levels as follows and other assumptions in the above table. These are set out in the second table.

Load factor Capital expenditure base Operating expenditure in Technology life Technology (source) (percentage) (range) in £/kW £/kW/year (years)

Offshore wind (Redpoint/Trilemma, 2009) 41 2,372 168 120 35 (2,159-3,036)

Onshore wind large-scale (Redpoint/Trilemma, 29 1,208 140 120 2009) 27 (1,172-1,329) 21

Wind 15 kW to 5,000 kW in size (Element, 2009) 2-32 1,500-3,000 44-74 10-20 1 Indicates a brace.

Technology (source) Load factor (percentage) Levelised costs in £/MWh

Onshore wind large-scale (Redpoint/Trilemma, 2009) 29 74 27 80 21 103

Offshore wind (Redpoint/Trilemma, 2009) 41 112 35 131

Research by Ernst & Young (2009) for DECC London and the South East to inside London and the found a levelised cost for offshore wind of £144/MWh— South East since the 2004 Gershon Report. [320901] available at: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file51142.pdf Mr. Byrne: The OGC maintains a central register that records the relocation of civil service posts from TREASURY London and the South East. Where known this also Civil Servants: Location records the movement of posts back into the area and these are netted off from the published relocation totals. Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The figures provided in the answer of 5 February 2010, pursuant to the answer of 5 February 2010, Official Official Report, column 621W, are net of 1,025 MOD Report, column 621W, on civil service: location, how posts, both military and civilian, which are known to many civil servants have been relocated from outside have relocated into the South East. 265W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 266W

Construction Industry Training Board Mr. Byrne: Information on departmental contingent liabilities is reported in the resource accounts of each John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer government department. As there is no central register what recent assessment his Department has made of this information could only be collected at disproportionate the effects on the construction industry of the cost. Construction Industry Training Board Levy. [320084] Departmental Advisory Bodies Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. The Government are working closely with the Mr. Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer construction industry to mitigate the impact of the how many advisory councils his Department has economic downturn. Skill levels and training capability established since 1997. [320966] in the industry are protected through the continuing levy arrangements directed by the Construction Industry Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Details of departments’ advisory Training Board (CITB). non-departmental public bodies are published annually Levy income in 2008 amounted to £181.8 million. as part of the Cabinet Office’s Public Bodies, copies of Training grant expenditure by the Board amounted to which are in the Library and can be accessed via: £176.1 million, with a further £23.2 million of support http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/ndpbs.aspx for employers, for instance for subsidised training courses and apprenticeship allowances. In 2008 CITB returned Departmental Buildings more money in direct financial assistance to employers than they received in levy (£1.10 returned to every £1 of Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the levy received). This high ratio of support has been made Exchequer how much his Department spent on office possible because CITB has acted on behalf of the refurbishments in each of the last 10 years. [320503] Industry to generate income from sources other than the levy. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A full PFI refurbishment of CITB have been working with Government and partners the Treasury’s building was completed in 2002. The cost to address skills issues caused by the recession, for of any refurbishments since that date have been included instance by introducing an Apprenticeship Matching in the annual unitary payment made to the PFI provider Scheme to help redundant trainees in the industry complete and is not separately recorded. their apprenticeships. As a result of the introduction of a new accounting Over the next three years the levy is anticipated to system in 2002-03, provision of information prior to raise between £465 million to £475 million for training that date could be provided only at disproportionate in the Construction Sector. Future levy income will cost. enable the CITB to meet the changing skills needs of the sector as it moves out of recession and to meet the Departmental Television challenge of the Government’s low-carbon agenda.

John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the what steps his Department is taking to assist Exchequer how many television programmes have been companies in relation to the administration of the sponsored by (a) his Department, (b) its agencies, (c) Construction Industry Training Board Levy. [320085] HM Revenue and Customs and (d) the Valuation Office Agency in each of the last five years; and at what Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. cost. [320278] The Department supports the work of the Construction Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 4 March 2010]: Industry Training Board (CITB), who are responsible HM Treasury, its agencies and the Valuation Office for the administration of the CITB Levy. In order to Agency have not sponsored any television programmes assist companies through the current recession the CITB in the past five years. have agreed to allow companies to pay the levy in monthly instalments, up to 15 months in some cases, at For HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) I refer the no extra charge. hon. Gentleman to the answer given to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on 4 March The process for completing levy assessments has been 2010, Official Report, column 1336W. This is the first simplified and can now be done online. CITB have a sponsorship of this kind that HMRC has undertaken. dedicated help-desk, and information is available on their website to assist with levy assessments. Employment CITB also have advisors who go out to companies to assess their training needs and how they can make best use of the grants available to support training their Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer workforce. what percentage of (a) male and (b) female workers were in the same job as 12 months earlier in each (i) Contingent Liabilities region and (ii) country of the UK in each year since 2006. [321117] Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what contingent liabilities of over £100,000 Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. each Government department has; and on what date The information requested falls within the responsibility Parliament was informed of the contingent liability in of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority each case. [321124] to reply. 267W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 268W

Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 9 March 2010: Estimates provided in the attached table are derived from the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Labour Force Survey (LFS) covering the three months ending have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking December for the period requested. what percentage of (a) male and (b) female workers were in the As with any sample survey, the estimates provided are subject same job as 12 months earlier in each (i)region and (ii) country of to a margin of uncertainty. the UK in each year since 2006. (321117)

Table 1: Percentage1 of workers2 in the same job for 12 months or longer October to December for each year—Not seasonally adjusted Percentage Male Female Total 2006 2007 2008 2009 2006 2007 2008 2009 2006 2007 2008 2009

United Kingdom 82.6 81.6 83.8 86.0 81.4 81.2 82.6 85.4 82.0 81.4 83.2 85.7 Great Britain 82.7 81.6 83.7 86.1 81.5 81.4 82.8 85.6 82.1 81.5 83.3 85.8 England 82.6 81.6 83.8 86.0 81.4 81.2 82.6 85.4 82.0 81.4 83.2 85.7 North East 81.8 80.5 79.9 87.2 83.4 82.9 82.7 85.1 82.5 81.6 81.2 86.2 North West 82.8 81.5 84.9 84.9 81.5 82.0 81.9 85.0 82.2 81.7 83.5 85.0 Yorkshire and the 81.8 83.6 82.9 86.0 80.8 81.4 83.1 84.3 81.3 82.6 83.0 85.2 Humber East Midlands 82.8 81.3 83.7 86.6 80.7 80.2 82.6 86.2 81.8 80.8 83.2 86.4 West Midlands 83.2 82.4 82.5 85.4 82.1 81.8 83.3 87.1 82.7 82.2 82.9 86.2 East of England 82.7 81.8 85.3 87.5 81.6 80.2 83.5 85.7 82.2 81.1 84.5 86.7 London 81.7 79.5 83.0 84.4 79.0 80.6 80.3 83.5 80.5 80.0 81.8 84.0 South East 82.3 81.2 84.3 85.9 81.0 79.4 81.6 84.6 81.7 80.4 83.1 85.3 South West 82.8 81.9 84.3 85.6 81.0 81.2 82.4 84.9 82.0 81.6 83.4 85.2 Wales 83.2 82.1 83.4 86.1 82.6 81.6 86.3 85.4 83.0 81.9 84.8 85.7 Scotland 83.5 81.2 83.2 86.9 82.1 82.8 83.3 87.4 82.8 81.9 83.3 87.2 Northern Ireland 85.6 86.4 87.4 90.1 86.9 86.4 87.8 90.6 86.2 86.4 87.6 90.3 1 The denominator includes those in employment who did not state the length of current employment. 2 People aged 16 and over in employment. Source: Labour Force Survey

Equitable Life Assurance Society Ian Pearson: The measure in tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions likely to arise from each Department from Mr. Fallon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Government operations in 2010-11 is estimated to be: pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for South tonnes carbon dioxide Dorset and North Poole of 2 February 2010, Official Carbon from vehicles for Report, column 212W, on Equitable Life, what Carbon from offices 2010-11 administrative purposes preparatory work his Department has undertaken on estimate (1999-2000 2010-11 estimate (2005-06 details of a payment scheme; what directions Ministers Department baseline) baseline) in his Department have given to departmental officials BIS 15,057 340 on the preparation of such details; and if he will make CLG 21,169 3,202 a statement. [317585] CO 8,005 24 DCSF 7,599 453 Mr. Byrne [holding answer 22 February 2010]: Sir DCMS 3,982 35 John Chadwick expects to submit his final advice to the DEFRA 13,474 20,089 Government on an Equitable Life ex gratia payment DFID 2,304 15 scheme in May. DfT 20,384 9,230 The Government recognise the importance of responding DWP 182,074 17,071 to this advice as quickly as possible. To accelerate this, DH 8,249 721 HM Treasury has been working to develop aspects of FCO 9,827 240 scheme design in parallel to Sir John’s work as far as HMRC 122,224 17,572 possible. The Government will therefore be able to HMT 5,700 117 announce details of a payment scheme—fair to both HO 25,241 2,372 policyholders and taxpayers—within two weeks of receiving LOD 11,794 1,793 Sir John’s advice. MOD 1,749,211 51,031 MOJ 151,247 7,798 ONS 6,311 2,809 Government Departments: Carbon Emissions The Government are committed to achieving a reduction Charles Hendry: To ask the Chancellor of the in the carbon dioxide emissions from its estate of 12.5 per Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 3 December cent. and from administrative road travel by 15 per cent. 2009, Official Report, column 927W, on Government both by 2010-11. Progress against these targets is departments: carbon emissions, what estimate he has reported annually in the Sustainable Development in made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions likely Government report. Current projections indicate that to arise from Government operations in each Government is expected to exceed these targets: forecasting department in 2010. [320363] a 17.8 per cent. reduction in carbon dioxide emissions 269W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 270W from offices and 23.7 per cent. reduction in carbon Investment dioxide emissions from road vehicles by 2010-11. Data supporting these figures has been supplied by Departments and is published annually as part of the Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sustainable Development in Government reporting process: what the level of (a) UK investment overseas and (b) foreign direct investment in the UK has been in each http://www.ogc.gov.uk/sustainability_programme _progress.asp year since 2006; what proportion of investment in the UK was represented by foreign direct investment in International Advisory Business Council each year; and what the level of investment in the UK was in each such year. [321121] Mr. Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) when the International Advisory Business Council Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. was founded; who the founding members were; what the current membership of the council is; on what dates The information requested falls within the responsibility it has met; and who attended which meetings; [320964] of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. (2) what the aims and objectives are of the International Advisory Business Council; and what Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 5 March 2010: recent assessment he has made of its performance As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I against targets. [320965] have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what the level of (a) UK investment overseas and (b) Mr. Timms: The International Business Advisory foreign direct investment in the UK has been in each year since Council was established by the then Chancellor of the 2006; what proportion of total investment in the UK was represented Exchequer in March 2006. The aim of the Council was by foreign direct investment in each year; and what the total level of investment in the UK was in each such year. (321121) to provide practical advice on public policy, as opposed to theoretical/academic analysis. The tables attached provide the figures for financial flows and the international investment position of the UK from 2006 to At the creation of the International Business Advisory 2008. In accordance with the definitions of balance of payments Council it was composed of the following members: statistics, investment data are presented in terms of economic Bernard Arnault, Chairman and CEO, LVMH transactions between UK residents and the rest of the world. Total investment in the UK is calculated by aggregating the rest of Lord Browne, (then) Group Chief Executive, BP the world’s direct, portfolio and other investment in the UK. The Dr. Jean-Pierre Garnier, (then) CEO, GlaxoSmithKline figure reported for total investment therefore excludes any domestic Bill Gates, Chairman, Microsoft Corporation investment in the UK. The figures are published in the financial account and the international investment position of the UK’s Sir Li Ka-shing, Chairman, Hutchison Whampoa Ltd. Balance of Payments Statistical Bulletin. Provisional figures for Sir Terry Leahy, CEO, Tesco 2009 will be published on Tuesday, 30 March 2010. Sir John Rose, CEO, Rolls-Royce Table 1: Investment flows, in £ million unless otherwise stated1,2,3 Robert Rubin, (then) Director and Chairman of the Executive 2006 2007 2008 Committee, Citigroup Inc. UK investment overseas 571859 995677 -614196 Lee Scott, (then) President and CEO, Wal-Mart Foreign direct investment in the UK 84889 98150 49767 Ratan Tata, Chairman, Tata Group Proportion of total Investment in the UK 13.91 9.55 -8.31 Meg Whitman, (then) President and CEO, eBay represented by foreign direct investment (percentage) James Wolfensohn, Special Envoy for Disengagement and Total investment in the UK 610084 1027353 -599014 Former President of the World Bank.

The Council met for the first and only time at a Table 2: International investment position at end of year, in £ million unless breakfast meeting on 17 November 2006. In addition to otherwise stated4 the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the attendees 2006 2007 2008 were: UK investment overseas (assets) 5212273 6384633 6967542 Mr. Robert Rubin (then of Citigroup) Foreign direct investment in the UK (liabilities) 578289 630164 672289 Sir Li Ka-Shing (Hutchinson Whampoa) Proportion of total Investment in the UK 10.39 9.45 9.57 Sir John Rose (Rolls-Royce) represented by foreign direct investment (percentage) Dr. Jean-Pierre Garnier (then of GlaxoSmithKline) Total investment in the UK (liabilities) 5564833 6667153 7026728 Mr. Ratan Tata (Tata Group) 1 A negative figure implies disinvestment. 2 Mr. Bernauld Arnault (LVMH) The figures are consistent with the Financial Account, Table J of the UK’s Balance of Payments Statistical Bulletin Q3 2009. Ms Meg Whitman (then of eBay). ’3 The annual figures for the investment flows are compiled by summing the flows of the four quarters. In June 2007, Prime Minister Gordon Brown established 4 The figures are consistent with the international investment position, Table K the Business Council for Britain to ensure that the of the UK’s Balance of Payments Statistical Bulletin Q3 2009. Government focus on the areas where it will make the greatest benefit to the business environment. Former members of the International Business Advisory Council Loans are invited to attend formal meetings of the Business Council for Britain, and a number of them have done so. Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer For information on the current work of the Business when the tripartite authorities first discussed the risks Council for Britain please consult: associated with (a) self-certification loans and (b) http://www.berr.gov.uk/aboutus/corporate/bcb/index.html non-deposit taking mortgage lending. [318015] 271W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 272W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The three authorities—Bank, Mr. Byrne: The ONS publish the Average Earnings HMT and FSA—meet on a very regular basis at a Index (AEI) for the public sector on a monthly basis, number of levels under the auspices of the memorandum which is available from 1997 at: of understanding. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ The Standing Committee met at least monthly to Product.asp?vlnk=9537 discuss financial stability issues. The Government do The difference between average earnings growth and not comment on meetings of the Standing Committee. pay settlements can be attributed to a number of factors, Since the beginning of 2010, the Standing Committee such as progression payments, performance related pay has been replaced by the Council for Financial Stability, and grade drift (when it occurs). The ONS do not which will hold quarterly strategic discussions that will however break down the data in this way. be publicly minuted. The Council will be established in Revenue and Customs: Hotels statute by the Financial Services Bill, but the Government have moved to these arrangements initially on a non- Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer statutory basis. pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Ruslip Northwood of 5 February 2010, Official Report, Public Bodies: Buildings column 621W, on hotels, for what reason (a) HM Revenue and Customs and (b) the Valuation Office Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the Agency do not use the Expotel facility to book hotel Exchequer if he will place in the Library a table accommodation. [320902] showing for each public body the (a) address, (b) total floor area and (c) vacant space recorded on the Mr. Timms: Neither HM Revenue and Customs electronic property information mapping service (HMRC) nor the Valuation Office Agency (VOA) have e-PIMs database. [311496] a contract with Expotel to arrange any travel services on their behalf. Ian Pearson: The information requested for the mandated HMRC and VOA currently contract with Carlson central Government civil office estate as at 12 January Wagonlit for travel management services relating to 2010 has been placed in the Library of the House. hotels, rail, air and conferencing. Revenue and Customs: Pay Public Bodies: Location Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what bonus payments were made to HM which Government agencies and bodies created since Revenue and Customs staff (a) at each grade and (b) 2004 have established their offices in London and the in each department in each of the last five financial South East. [320722] years. [320659]

Ian Pearson: The Treasury does not hold a central Mr. Timms: The information requested relating to record that lists which Government agencies and bodies HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is provided in the created since 2004 have established their offices in London table. Information for earlier years could be provided and the South East. only at disproportionate cost, due to the work required to collate this. Data for 2009-10 has not yet been Public Sector: Pay finalised. Performance bonuses are based on performance in Mr. Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the previous year. what estimate he has made of the proportion of the In 2007-08 bonus payments were made to top performers change in the public sector wage bill attributable to (a) and good performers on the pay band range maximum, pay awards and (b) grade drift in each year since 1997. as they had received a lower consolidated pay award. In [318662] 2008-09 bonuses were paid only to top performers.

2007-08 2008-09

Total bonus paid (rounded to Total bonus paid (rounded to nearest £000) Average bonus paid (£) nearest £000) Average bonus paid (£)

Admin Assistant 1,423,000 168 467,000 343

Admin Officer 4,500,000 211 1,736,000 416

Officer 4,764,000 325 2,421,000 555

Higher Officer 3,013,000 437 1,830,000 701

Senior Officer 1,603,000 582 1,096,000 872

Fast Stream 77,000 496 46,000 695

Grade 7 830,000 908 754,000 1,151

Grade 6 633,000 1,123 653,000 1,465 273W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 274W

2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total bonus paid Total bonus paid Total bonus paid (rounded to nearest Average bonus paid (rounded to nearest Average bonus paid (rounded to nearest Average bonus £000) (£) £000) (£) £000) paid (£)

AA 19,250 350 21,000 350 18,200 350 AO 24,500 350 28,000 350 21,700 350 EO 26,250 350 29,750 350 32,200 350 HEO 67,650 550 88,000 550 73,700 550 SEO 58,300 550 57,750 550 71,500 550 G7 25,500 750 29,250 750 39,000 750 G6 6,750 750 12,000 750 12,750 750 Senior Civil Service 49,000 6,943 98,000 9,820 1— 1— 1 Not yet finalised

Tax Allowances Taxation: Football

Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Chancellor of the pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Ruslip Exchequer whether the (a) football debts and (b) Northwood of 5 February 2010, Official Report, other transfer fees of a football club in administration column 622W, on Revenue and Customs, what the cost take priority over debts owned to HM Revenue and to the Exchequer has been of tax relief from the Customs; and if he will make a statement. [320990] Employee Share Scheme; whether that amount is included in the £9.6 million referred to in the answer; Mr. Timms: There is nothing in insolvency legislation how many transactions have been processed under the that provides for football debts or other transfer fees of scheme in each year; how many individual taxpayers clubs in administration to be paid prior to other unsecured have participated in the scheme; what consultants were creditors such as HM Revenue and Customs. used to formulate the project; and at what cost. [320909] Ensuring tax is paid on time should be at the centre of any football club’s business strategy, as it should be Mr. Timms: The estimated cost to the Exchequer of for any other responsible enterprise. tax and National Insurance contributions (NICs) relief of tax-advantaged employee share schemes and the number of individual taxpayer participants in each of the schemes are published at: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/emp_share_schemes/menu.htm The amount of £9.6 million referred to in the answer to hon. Member for Ruislip Northwood (Mr. Hurd) of Adult Education: Fees and Charges 5 February 2010, Official Report, column 622W, is not included in the estimates of the cost of tax and NICs Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, relief, because it is a separate cost of introducing and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what providing the Employee Share Schemes (ESS) online the average fee cost was of a further education level 3 service and database. The ESS service was delivered by course for adults in the latest period for which figures Capgemini under HMRC’s outsourced IT contract. are available; and if he will make a statement. [320529] The numbers of transactions processed using the ESS service database per year are approximately 40,000 in Kevin Brennan: Learners aged from 19 up to 2007-08, 28,000 in 2008-09 and 23,000 to date in 2009-10. 25 undertaking further education courses which will lead to their first full Level 3 qualification (two A levels Tax Collection or vocational equivalent) are legally entitled to have their training fully funded. This approach ensures that young adults have the opportunity to gain a full level 3 Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the qualification, enabling them to progress into employment Exchequer what the membership is of the group in HM or further learning, including higher education. Revenue and Customs advising on the implementation of the recommendations of the Calman Commission Where a learner is outside of this entitlement and is report of changes to tax collection. [321298] not in receipt of income-related benefits then they or their employer is expected to contribute to the cost of Mr. Timms: The advisory group has not been formed their learning to reflect the benefits they will realise yet. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will issue from this investment. For the 2010/11 academic year, invitations to professional and employer representatives the assumed level of fee contribution will be based on before the relevant legislation is introduced. The group 50 per cent. of the national funding rate. will enable HMRC to consult on some of the technical However, individual colleges and training organisations, and practical implications of the implementation of the as independent institutions, have the flexibility to set proposed tax changes announced in the Government’s their own fees for each course, and data on the levels of White Paper ‘Scotland’s Future in the United Kingdom’, fees collected for each course are not centrally collected. available at: It is therefore not possible to provide an average cost of http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk a further education level 3 course to the learner. 275W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 276W

Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, the Accountancy and Actuarial Discipline Board Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what (“AADB”) of the Financial Reporting Council (“FRC”). the average course fee paid by employers taking on The Professional Oversight Board of the FRC provides adult apprentices was in the latest period for which statistical information on complaints to the RSBs about figures are available; and if he will make a statement. statutory auditors, in its Annual Report to my Noble [320530] Friend the Secretary of State, which is presented to Parliament each year. Kevin Brennan: In 2008/09 academic year, the number The RSBs are the Association of Chartered Certified of apprenticeship frameworks completed was 143,400, Accountants; the Association of Authorised Public meaning that the Government’s public service agreement Accountants; the Institute of Chartered Accountants in target was met two years early. Within this group, England and Wales; The Institute of Chartered Accountants 75,700 of these apprentices were adults, aged 19 and in Ireland; and the Institute of Chartered Accountants above. Adult apprentices are funded differently from of Scotland. those aged between 16 and 18, and the employer is expected to make a contribution to the cost of the Banks course in line with the national fee assumption, which for 2010/11 academic year will be 50 per cent. of the Peter Luff: To ask the Minister of State, Department national funding rate. Employer contributions may be for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the in cash to the training provider or in kind through answer of 2 March 2010, Official Report, column supporting the delivery of the training activity. 1105W, on banks, what recent assessment he has made However, individual colleges and training organisations, of the merits of establishing a state-owned investment as independent institutions, have the flexibility to set bank; and if he will make a statement. [321079] their own fee cost for each course, including apprenticeships, and data on the levels of fees collected for each course Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the answer are not centrally collected. It is therefore not possible to I gave on 2 March 2010, Official Report, column reference provide an average fee for an adult apprenticeship. 1105W. Bearwood Corporate Services Adult Education: Finance Mr. Meacher: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Hancock: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will investigate the status as a company of Bearwood will review the equity of the allocation process for Corporate Services since 2003. [321383] distribution of Adult Safeguarded Learning funds during the transfer of responsibility for informal Ian Lucas: Bearwood Corporate Services Ltd. is a learning to the Skills Funding Agency. [321375] trading company and has been since 2003. The latest accounts on file are for the year ending 30 September Kevin Brennan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer 2008 and the latest annual return is made up to 23 June I gave on 25 February 2010, Official Report, column 2009. The company is, therefore, filed up to date. 758W. Building Colleges for the Future Programme Audit: Misconduct Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what much has been allocated in capital funding for further reports his Department has received of instances of education colleges in each (a) parliamentary malpractice by chartered accountants in company constituency, (b) local authority area and (c) region in financial audits since January 2008. [321045] each of the last three years. [319919]

Ian Lucas: The Department for Business, Innovation Kevin Brennan: In total across this current spending and Skills does not routinely receive reports of malpractice period, Government will spend £1.7 billion on college by chartered accountants in company financial audits. buildings—with a further £900 million already earmarked These issues are the responsibility of the Recognised for the next spending period. Supervisory Bodies for auditors (“RSBs”), and in cases The following three tables provide the information which raise important issues affecting the public interest, requested:

Table 1: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by parliamentary constituency £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Local authority area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Aldershot total 130,000 765,000 — Altrincham and Sale, West total — 17,753,075 — Barnsley, Central total 942,284 — 38,747,209 Barrow and Furness total — — 31,967,000 Basingstoke total — 9,368,000 — Battersea total — 2,037,970 23,816,070 Beverley and Holderness total 12,593,550 11,620,421 — 277W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 278W

Table 1: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by parliamentary constituency £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Local authority area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Birmingham, Northfield total — — 53,928,565 Birmingham, Yardley total 9,579,593 — — Bishop Auckland total — 18,249,030 — Blackpool, South total 10,719,000 — — Bolton, South-East total 6,402,000 73,680,080 — Bootle total — 368,139 — Bracknell total 26,431,460 — — Bradford ,West total 1,933,671 — — Brent, East total 1,720,245 — — Brentford and Isleworth total 243,769 59,132,738 — Bristol, East total 1,634,000 15,700,000 — Bristol, South total — 8,223,000 — Bromsgrove total 250,000 — — Burnley total 48,526,000 — — Bury, North total — 198,500 — Cheadle total — 833,132 — Chipping Barnet total — 20,371,333 — City of Chester total — — 47,872,000 Colchester total 12,726,000 — — Cotswold total — 1,464,538 — Coventry, South total 16,881,835 — — Crewe and Nantwich total — 58,503,405 — Croydon, Central total — 28,969,905 — Croydon, South total — 31,887,240 — Dartford total 24,555,000 — 50,496,000 Derby, South total 18,479,280 1,074,800 — Easington total 22,983,000 — — East Hampshire total 7,532,749 1,188,000 — Eddisbury total 6,237,944 — — Great Yarmouth total — 5,200,000 — Halesowen and Rowley Regis total 934,848 — — Harborough total — 36,899,513 — Harrow, West total 60,500 4,644,000 — Hartlepool Total — 20,753,000 38,994,000 Hastings and Rye total — — 75,997,822 Hazel Grove total — 39,156,000 — Hereford total 7,596,883 1,945,758 — Hertford and Stortford total 25,806,475 — — Hornchurch total — 1,078,000 — Horsham total — 386,000 — Huddersfield total 95,000 — 54,325,948 Ipswich total 42,817,000 — — Keighley total 29,518,961 — — Kettering total — 210,067 27,000,000 Kingston upon Hull, North total 5,510,038 10,343,700 — Leeds, Central total 3,764,346 5,314,000 — Leicester, South total 30,065,000 — — Lewes total — 6,212,000 — Leyton and Wanstead total 3,277,500 — 31,566,624 Lincoln total 502,244 136,186 — Liverpool, Wavertree Total 432,544 17,402,873 — Loughborough total 2,621,136 — — Luton, North total — 49,742,000 — Maidenhead total — 11,032,000 — Manchester, Central total — 15,276,677 7,038,000 Mitcham and Morden total — 11,454,727 — Newcastle upon Tyne Central total 389,417 — — Newcastle-under-Lyme total 24,104,548 5,274,509 — North West Norfolk total — 313,870 — Northampton, North total — 67,024,221 — Nottingham, South total 3,044,710 — — Orpington total — 24,624,000 — 279W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 280W

Table 1: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by parliamentary constituency £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Local authority area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Pontefract and Castleford total 453,000 — — Portsmouth, North total 23,871,000 — — Preston total 6,424,000 — — Regent’s Park and Kensington, North total 11,143,899 92,113,362 — Reigate total — 54,990,000 — Rochford and Southend, East total — 3,925,000 — Rotherham total — 250,800 — Selby total — 24,779,157 — Sheffield, Central total 36,067,880 — — Sheffield, Brightside total — 66,948 — Solihull total 1,672,580 19,864,490 — South-East Cambridgeshire total 2,314,000 — — South Norfolk total — 13,396,000 — South West Surrey total 1,050,355 — — Southampton, Itchen total — 19,404,000 — St. Helens, South total 23,149,995 16,238,965 17,400,000 Stockport total 16,566,000 3,432,296 — Stockton, South total — 24,281,000 — Stoke-on-Trent, Central total 7,755,000 23,845,618 — Tonbridge and Malling total 5,807,800 72,878,000 — Truro and St. Austell total — 12,537,700 — Tyne Bridge total 1,165,000 4,285,000 — Walsall, South total 37,087,459 — — Warley total — — 47,184,856 Warwick and Leamington total — 10,023,036 — Watford total — 16,892,000 — Weaver Vale total — 25,129,523 — West Lancashire total 1,322,000 — 32,596,186 Westmorland and Lonsdale total 10,126,000 — — Wolverhampton, South-West total 1,350,000 — —

Table 2: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by local authority area £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Local authority area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Barnet LBC total — 20,371,333 — Barnsley MBC total 942,284 — 38,747,209 Birmingham City Council total 9,579,593 — 53,928,565 Blackpool Council total 10,719,000 — — Bolton Council total 6,402,000 73,680,080 — Bracknell Forest Borough Council total 26,431,460 — — Bradford total 29,518,961 — — Bradford MDC total 1,933,671 — — Brent LBC total 1,720,245 — — Bristol City Council total 1,634,000 23,923,000 — Bury MBC total — 198,500 — Cambridgeshire County Council total 2,314,000 — — Cheshire East Council total 6,237,944 58,503,405 — Cheshire West and Chester Council total — 25,129,523 47,872,000 Cornwall county council total — 12,537,700 — Coventry City Council total 16,881,835 — — Croydon LBC total — 60,857,145 — Cumbria County Council total 10,126,000 — 31,967,000 Derbyshire County Council total 18,479,280 1,074,800 — Dudley total 934,848 — — Durham County Council total 22,983,000 18,249,030 — East Riding of Yorkshire total 12,593,550 11,620,421 — East Sussex County Council total — 6,212,000 75,997,822 Essex County Council total 12,726,000 — — Gateshead Council total — 4,285,000 — Gloucestershire total — 1,464,538 — 281W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 282W

Table 2: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by local authority area £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Local authority area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Hampshire LA total 31,533,749 11,321,000 — Harrow Council total 60,500 4,644,000 — Hartlepool total — 20,753,000 38,994,000 Havering total — 1,078,000 — Herefordshire Council total 7,596,883 1,945,758 — Hertfordshire county council total 25,806,475 16,892,000 — Hounslow LBC total 243,769 59,132,738 — Kensington and Chelsea LBC total — 4,445,362 — Kent County Council total 30,362,800 97,502,000 50,496,000 Kingston upon Hull City Council total 5,510,038 10,343,700 — Kirklees total 95,000 — 54,325,948 Lancashire County Council total 54,950,000 — 32,596,186 Leeds total 3,764,346 — — Leeds City Council total — 5,314,000 — Leicestershire County Council total 32,686,136 36,899,513 — Lincolnshire total 502,244 136,186 — Liverpool total 432,544 17,402,873 — Luton total — 49,742,000 — Manchester City Council total — 16,109,809 7,038,000 Merton total — 11,454,727 — Newcastle total 1,554,417 — — Norfolk County Council total — 18,909,870 — North Yorkshire County council total — 24,779,157 — Northamptonshire County Council total — 67,234,288 27,000,000 Nottinghamshire County Council total 3,044,710 — — Rotherham MBC total — 250,800 — Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead total — 11,032,000 — Sandwell MBC total — — 47,184,856 Sefton total — 368,139 — Sheffield City Council total 36,067,880 66,948 — Solihull Council total 1,672,580 19,864,490 — Southampton City Council total — 19,404,000 — Southend-on-sea borough council total — 3,925,000 — St. Helen’s Council total 23,149,995 16,238,965 17,400,000 Staffordshire total 24,104,548 5,274,509 — Stockport MBC total 16,566,000 42,588,296 — Stockton on Tees BC total — 24,281,000 — Stoke on Trent City Council total 7,755,000 23,845,618 — Suffolk County Council total 42,817,000 — — Surrey County Council total 1,050,355 54,990,000 — Trafford MBC total — 17,753,075 — Wakefield total 453,000 — — Walsall Council total 37,087,459 — — Waltham Forest total 3,277,500 — 31,566,624 Wandsworth LBC total — 2,037,970 23,816,070 Warwickshire County Council total — 10,023,036 — West Sussex County Council total — 386,000 — Westminster City Council total 11,143,899 87,668,000 — Wigan MBC total 1,322,000 — — Wolverhampton City Council total 1,350,000 — — Worcestershire total 250,000 — —

Table 3: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by region £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Region 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

EM total 54,712,370 105,344,787 27,000,000 ER total 83,663,475 89,468,870 — GI total 16,445,913 276,313,275 55,382,694 NE total 309,000 33,526,000 71,590,186 NR total 24,228,417 29,757,030 — 283W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 284W

Table 3: Detailed college capital projects approved in the LSC financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, broken down by region £ Grant approved in LSC financial year: Region 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

NW total 131,553,232 272,257,665 104,277,000 SE total 87,730,615 176,223,000 126,493,822 SW total 1,634,000 37,925,238 — WM total 107,212,746 60,953,411 101,113,421 YH total 90,878,730 52,375,026 93,073,157

Departmental Advertising Mr. McFadden: For the supply of temporary staff (interim managers, specialist contractors and admin/clerical Angus Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, workers), the Department uses a range of companies Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how under the Office of Government Commerce (OGC) much was spent on advertising by (a) his Department Buying Solutions framework agreement. and (b) each of its (i) non-departmental public bodies The OGC is an independent office of HM Treasury, and (ii) executive agencies in each year since 2005. established to help Government deliver best value from [319815] their spending. The procurement of temporary staff is not managed Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the answer centrally in the Department as responsibility has been I gave to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar devolved locally to line management. Companies used (Mr. MacNeil) on 8 March 2010, Official Report, column under the framework will vary depending on the specialist 138W. needs of the line. Therefore the information is not easily available and could be provided only at disproportionate Departmental Correspondence cost.

Stewart Hosie: To ask the Minister of State, Engineering: Construction Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to how many (a) emails and (b) letters sent by post from Mr. Crabb: To ask the Minister of State, Department members of the public his Department has responded for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he since May 2007. [319751] has made of the number of UK engineering construction firms which have secured contracts for Mr. McFadden: The Department has responded to work in other EU member states in each of the last five 76,016 letters from members of the public since May years. [320921] 2007. Since January 2009 the Department has responded to Ian Lucas: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I 10,931 e-mails. The Department has no records for gave on 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 613W. e-mails before that date. Information relating to the securing of individual contracts in a particular sector, including engineering construction, Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers is not collated by Government. The awarding of engineering construction contracts is a business matter for the parties concerned, and the various award criteria are commercial Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, issues for the private sector clients involved. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time equivalent staff of each grade are employed by his Department to assist special advisers. Higher Education: Admissions [321128] Michael Gove: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. McFadden: There are currently four full-time Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how equivalent staff employed by the Department to many and what proportion of students from (a) assist the four special advisers who support my Noble comprehensive and (b) independent schools attended Friend the Secretary of State and the other two BIS Russell Group universities in (i) 1997, (ii) 2003 and (iii) Ministers who attend Cabinet each week, my Noble the most recent year for which figures are available. Friend the Minister of State for Science and Innovation [321389] and myself. Mr. Lammy: The latest estimates show that some Departmental Temporary Employment 19 per cent. (23,700) of state school A level candidates who attempted one or more A levels (or equivalent) at Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, age 17 in 2005/06, progressed to a Russell Group HE Department for Business, Innovation and Skills from institution by age 19 in 2006/07. The equivalent figure which companies his Department sourced temporary for candidates from independent school pupils was staff in each of the last three years; how many 46 per cent. (13,000). temporary staff his Department employed in each year; These figures have been estimated using matched and what the monetary value of the contracts with data from the National Pupil Database and the Higher each such company was in each such year. [320018] Education Statistics Agency Student Record. 285W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 286W

Holiday Leave the NMW in April of each year from 2004 to 2009. Comparable data for earlier years is not available as Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department supplementary information required for the estimates for Business, Innovation and Skills to how many was introduced in 2004. contracted days’ paid holiday on average employees in Table 1: Number of jobholders earning at or below the national minimum wage each employment category in the (a) public and (b) rate in April of reference year private sector were entitled in the latest year for which North East UK figures are available. [320648] 2004 40,000 580,000 2005 50,000 690,000 Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. 2006 40,000 740,000 The information requested falls within the responsibility 2007 50,000 830,000 of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority 2008 50,000 830,000 to reply. 2009 50,000 790,000 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: Source: BIS analysis of Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings. Figures are rounded to As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I the nearest 10,000. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many contracted days’ paid holiday on average employees in Mobile Phones: Competition each employment category in the (a) public and (b) private sector were entitled in the latest year for which figures are available. 320648 Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Minister of Estimates of average paid holiday entitlement per year are State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills provided in the attached table by sector and by whether the what assessment he has made of the likely effect on employees are part-time or full-time. The estimates are derived new entrants to the market of the proposed merger from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). The distinction between between T-Mobile and Orange. [321051] public and private sector is based on respondents’ views about the organisation for which they work. Similarly, the distinction between full-time and part-time is based purely on how respondents Kevin Brennan: It is the responsibility of the relevant regard their employment status. competition authorities to determine whether a merger results in any substantial lessening of competition. This As with any sample survey, the estimates provided are subject to a margin of uncertainty. test includes any likely effect on new entrants into a market. In this case, the investigation was undertaken Paid holiday entitlement for full-time and part-time employees by sector, three months ending December 2009, United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted by the European Commission and its decision can be Average paid holiday entitlement (days per year)1 viewed at the following link: Public sector2 Private sector Total http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/ 10/208 Full-time 31 23 25 Part-time 23 14 17 Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance All employees 29 21 23 1 Excluding public holidays. 2 Includes nationalised industry or state corporation, central government, civil Charles Hendry: To ask the Minister of State, service, local government or council (including police, fire services and local authority controlled schools or colleges), university or other grant funded Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what educational establishment, health authority or NHS trust and armed forces. assessment he has made of trends in the volume of Source: greenhouse gas emissions attributable to the ONS Labour Force Survey. manufacture of vehicles sold to consumers participating in the vehicle scrappage scheme. [321253] Minimum Wage Ian Lucas: No detailed assessment has been made Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Minister of State, this Department. According to the Society of Motor Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Manufacturers and Traders, average CO2 emissions of a many people were paid at the rate of the national car bought through the scheme was 133.3 g/km, almost minimum wage in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South 10 per cent. below the overall new car market average Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK in each and 26.8 per cent. below the average figure for a year since 1997. [321077] scrapped car. Mr. McFadden: Data for earnings is not available at the local authority or constituency level because of National Enterprise Academy: Expenditure small sample sizes at these levels in the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE). Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Due to rounding in the conversion of payroll data Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how into hourly wage rates and small sample sizes for 16-17 much has been spent on (a) the National Enterprise and 18-21 year olds in ASHE, it is not possible at the Academy and (b) enterprise academies in each year regional level to infer the number of employees earning since their inception. [319903] exactly at the national minimum wage (NMW) with sufficient certainty. However it is possible to estimate Kevin Brennan: The information requested is as follows: the number who were paid at or below the NMW. (a) Learning and Skills Council (LSC) spend on the Table 1 shows estimates from BIS analysis of ASHE National Enterprise Academy was £394,950 in 2008-09 for the number of jobholders in the North East Government financial year, and £1,498,985 in 2009-10 financial year, Office Region and the UK who were paid at or below a total of £1,893,935 to date (as at February 2010). 287W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 288W

(b) There are no other enterprise academies in receipt data for passports, driving licences, and potentially ID of funding through the National Skills Academies cards. This issue has been actively considered within programme. Government and the Post Office is expected to bid to be a service provider. The Post Office agreed a deal last Overseas Students: Entry Clearances year with the DVLA to provide a “one-stop” biometric data capture facility at 750 branches around the country Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, and is therefore well placed to provide similar services. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has made an estimate of the effects of Post Offices: Greater London recent changes in the Tier 4 points based visa system on (a) the number of overseas students attending UK Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, universities over the next 10 years and (b) the income Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how of UK universities over the next 10 years. [321314] many post office branches there were in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency, (b) the Mr. Lammy: The changes to Tier 4 of the points London Borough of Bexley and (c) Greater London in based system, announced by my right hon. Friend the (i) 1997 and (ii) 2009. [321060] Home Secretary on 10 February, are designed to ensure that there are no barriers to higher education institutions Mr. McFadden: I have asked Alan Cook, managing offering courses to genuine international students. director of Post Office Ltd. to respond directly to he Demand from international students to study in the hon. Member and a copy of his reply will be placed in UK has grown considerably over recent years and early the Libraries of the House. indications are that it continues to grow in 2010. We do not forecast the likely numbers of international students Private Finance Initiative studying in the UK for future years. It is entirely up to universities to decide how many international students they enrol. In 2007/08 universities derived approximately Stewart Hosie: To ask the Minister of State, 8 per cent. of their income from international students. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his Department will provide to fund all As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made existing private finance initiative and public-private clear at the start of the year we believe there is scope to partnership contracts in each of the next 10 years. double the value of higher education exports, both [320563] through continuing to recruit international students as well as the delivery of courses and qualifications abroad. Mr. McFadden: The Department has one PFI contract Overseas Trade: Kazakhstan which expires in 2014. This covers the supply of a wide range of ICT goods and services. The forecast funding is: Mr. Keetch: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what £ million recent assessment he has made of the level of trade between the UK and Kazakhstan; and if he will make a 2010-11 22 statement. [320775] 2011-12 22 2012-13 22 Ian Lucas: HM Revenue and Customs Overseas Trade 2013-14 22 Statistics recorded UK exports of goods to Kazakhstan in 2009 worth about £260 million, compared with Public Holidays £209 million in 2008. UK imports of goods from Kazakhstan in 2009 were worth about £174 million, compared with £112 million in 2008. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he The ONS UK Balance of Payments Pink Book gives has made of the cost to his Department of the a figure of UK exports of services to Kazakhstan in introduction of an additional public holiday; and if he 2008 worth about £915 million, and imports worth will make a statement. [315125] about £363 million. Geographical data on trade in services for 2009 are due to be published at the end of Mr. McFadden: This Department has not made an July. estimate of the costs to the Department of the introduction Post Office of an additional public holiday. The additional Bank Holiday to mark Her Majesty’s Diamond Jubilee Dr. Palmer: To ask the Minister of State, announced on 5 January is due to take place in June Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 2012, which falls in 2012-13 financial year. whether he has had discussions with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the suitability of Skills Funding Agency Post Office Ltd as a bidder for the contract set out in tender notice 2009/S 247-354963. [319961] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps Mr. McFadden: The Government are keen for the to ensure that the Skills Funding Agency publishes on Post Office to expand its Government services work. its website minutes of its council and committee One of the major new opportunities in this area is for meetings within two weeks of those meetings taking post offices to act as centres for the capture of biometric place; and if he will make a statement. [320276] 289W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 290W

Kevin Brennan [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The Trade Promotion: Turkey Skills Funding Agency, as an Agency of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will not have a Mr. Soames: To ask the Minister of State, council and committee structure. The Chief Executive Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what of Skills Funding will ensure that there is external steps he is taking to promote UK trade and investment involvement in the Skills Funding Agency governance with Turkey. [320961] arrangements and this will take effect after the establishment of the agency on 1 April 2010. Relevant minutes will be available on the Skills Funding Agency website at Ian Lucas: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) has appropriate intervals, subject to the redaction of any identified Turkey as one of 17 high growth markets sensitive or confidential information which is exempt which are afforded higher focus and greater attention under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. under the 2006 strategy “Prosperity in a Changing World”. UKTI supports business through trade and investment teams based in Ankara, Istanbul and Izmir Supermarkets: Competition in Turkey. They provide a range of support services to UK companies wishing to trade with or set up joint ventures in Turkey. These are detailed on the UKTI web Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, pages. There is also a team in Istanbul dedicated to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills promoting opportunities for investment into the UK by whether it is his Department’s policy to assist small Turkish companies. shops adversely affected by competition from Regular events are delivered through partner supermarkets; and if he will make a statement. [320839] organisations in the English regions and in the devolved administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Kevin Brennan: The Government recognise the important to make UK companies aware of the prospective role of small shops to local communities and, the opportunities of doing business in Turkey and how best national economy. There is a wide range of support to realise them. available which can be accessed through business link: UKTI leads on the work of the Turkey-UK Joint www.businesslink.gov.uk/realhelp Economic and Trade Committee (JETCO), which identifies Local planning authorities are required to take into new business opportunities and also focuses on ways to account the Government’s Planning Policy to help safeguard tackle barriers to trade and improve the environment retail diversity and vibrancy of town centres which for business. includes creating opportunities for small shops. My Noble Friend the Minister of State for Trade, Ensuring fair competition in markets is a matter for Investment and Small Business, visited Turkey in July the independent competition authorities. The Competition 2009 and a ministerial delegation from Turkey is due to Commission, who reported on the market on the UK visit the UK this month (March 2010). supply of groceries in 2008 concluded that while the process of competition can be challenging, it was generally UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security working well and delivered good outcomes for consumers. Organisation

Trade Promotion: Indonesia Nick Harvey: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the target market countries are of the UK Trade and Mr. Soames: To ask the Minister of State, Investments Defence and Security Organisation. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what [320755] steps he is taking to promote UK trade and investment with Indonesia. [320962] Ian Lucas: The current list of UKTI DSO Priority Markets is: Algeria, Australia, Brazil, Denmark, Greece, Ian Lucas: Indonesia is one of UK Trade and India, Iraq, Japan, South Korea, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Investment’s 17 high growth markets which received Mexico, Oman, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Turkey, additional resource in 2006 to ensure UK business can UAE and the USA. UKTI DSO is supporting campaigns benefit from the opportunities in this market. The Asia in a total of 52 countries. Task Force chaired by my Noble Friend the Secretary of State undertakes an outreach programme alerting UK business to the potential of Asia markets, Indonesia is a Unemployment key component of this work. We expect this work to continue throughout 2010. Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, My Noble Friend the Minister of State for Trade, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Investment and Small Business visited Jakarta in November many people in each ethnic group were not in 2009. During meetings with the Government of Indonesia, education, employment or training in each quarter of he secured progress on a number of important market the last five years. [319901] access issues that will help to open doors for British business. Following this visit, a report has been Kevin Brennan: The following table gives the number commissioned on doing business with Indonesia which and percentage of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, will help UK companies to understand and navigate the employment or training for each ethnic group for every business environment better in Indonesia. This work quarter in the last five years. These estimates are from will be disseminated broadly later in the year. the Labour Force survey. 291W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 292W

Please note that these estimates are subject to large These figures are not seasonally adjusted and therefore sampling variability and should therefore be treated adjacent quarters are not directly comparable. with caution and viewed in conjunction with their confidence intervals2 (CIs, given in Table 2), which 1Age used is the respondents academic age, which is defined as indicate how accurate an estimate is. For example, a CI their age at the preceding 31 August. of+/-4.2 percentage points (pp) means that the true 2 Those given are 95 per cent. confidence intervals. value is between 4.2pp above the estimate and 4.2pp below the estimate.

Table 1: People aged 16 to 24 not in education, employment or training for each ethnic group—England Number NEET Percentage NEET Asian Black Asian Black or or Other or or Other Asian Black ethnic Asian Black ethnic Quarter Year Total White Mixed British British group Total White Mixed British British group

Q1 2005 743,000 619,000 17,000 62,000 27,000 17,000 13.1 12.7 16.7 16.8 17.0 12.8 Q2 2005 771,000 624,000 20,000 66,000 33,000 26,000 13.5 12.8 18.9 17.6 19.2 16.5 Q3 2005 877,000 718,000 17,000 81,000 33,000 28,000 15.2 14.5 16.0 20.0 20.4 21.3 Q4 2005 837,000 689,000 18,000 72,000 28,000 29,000 14.6 14.0 15.6 18.3 18.2 20.6 Q1 2006 801,000 667,000 14,000 67,000 27,000 27,000 14.0 13.6 13.5 16.5 16.2 18.6 Q2 2006 851,000 704,000 16,000 70,000 31,000 29,000 14.8 14.3 17.4 17.1 18.5 17.1 Q3 2006 969,000 802,000 20,000 88,000 31,000 27,000 16.6 16.0 20.5 21.2 18.1 18.4 Q4 2006 807,000 681,000 16,000 61,000 28,000 20,000 13.8 13.5 16.2 15.5 17.1 13.4 Q1 2007 827,000 691,000 18,000 70,000 25,000 23,000 14.1 13.8 20.0 16.7 15.5 12.7 Q2 2007 833,000 681,000 19,000 76,000 28,000 26,000 14.2 13.7 20.1 18.3 16.5 13.9 Q3 2007 909,000 751,000 17,000 78,000 32,000 29,000 15.4 14.9 18.5 18.1 17.4 17.9 Q4 2007 781,000 645,000 18,000 61,000 31,000 23,000 13.1 12.7 18.5 15.0 17.2 13.8 Q1 2008 809,000 663,000 17,000 67,000 33,000 27,000 13.6 13.1 19.9 15.3 19.3 15.3 Q2 2008 837,000 683,000 17,000 71,000 33,000 32,000 13.9 13.4 16.3 15.7 19.5 17.0 Q3 2008 969,000 792,000 20,000 77,000 38,000 35,000 16.1 15.6 17.9 18.2 20.1 18.2 Q4 2008 854,000 702,000 19,000 70,000 32,000 29,000 14.2 13.8 15.8 16.5 15.4 15.8 Q1 2009 933,000 786,000 21,000 66,000 32,000 24,000 15.5 15.5 16.5 15.9 16.6 12.9 Q2 2009 956,000 815,000 25,000 65,000 30,000 20,000 15.8 15.9 21.4 15.9 15.4 11.1 Q3 2009 1,074,000 897,000 22,000 82,000 53,000 16,000 17.9 17.5 19.5 20.9 25.7 10.9 Q4 2009 895,000 741,000 15,000 79,000 42,000 16,000 14.8 14.5 11.9 17.9 21.4 10.8 Note: Base: 16 to 24 year olds, England Source: Labour Force Survey

Table 2: Confidence intervals for NEET percentages given in Table 1 Confidence intervals Asian or Asian Black or Black Other ethnic Quarter Year Total White Mixed British British group

Q1 2005 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.5 +1-2.9 +1-4.6 +/- 4.4 Q2 2005 +1-0.7 +/-0.7 +/-5.7 +/- 3.0 +/-4.7 +/-4.7 Q3 2005 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.4 +/-3A +/-5.1 +/-5.7 Q4 2005 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.2 +/- 3.0 +/- 4.9 +/- 5.4 Q1 2006 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.2 +/-2.9 +/- 4.5 +/-5.1 Q2 2006 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.9 +/- 2.9 +/-4.7 +/- 4.6 Q3 2006 +/-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/- 6.4 +/- 3.2 +/- 4.8 +/- 5.2 Q4 2006 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 5.8 +/-2.9 +/- 4.8 +/- 4.5 Q1 2007 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 6.5 +/- 2.9 +/- 4.5 +/- 4.0 Q2 2007 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +J-6.5 +/- 3.0 +/-4.6 +/- 4.0 Q3 2007 +1-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/- 6.4 +/- 3.0 +/- 4.5 +/-4.9 Q4 2007 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/-6.1 +/- 2.8 +/- 4.4 +/- 4.3 Q1 2008 +/-0.7 +/-0.7 +/- 6.5 +/-2.7 +/- 4.8 +/- 4.3 Q2 2008 +1-0.7 +/-0.7 +/-5.7 +/-2.7 +/-5.0 +/- 4.4 Q3 2008 +/-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/- 6.0 +/-3.1 +/- 4.8 +/- 4.6 Q4 2008 +/-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/- 5.3 +/-2.9 +/-4.1 +/- 4.3 Q1 2009 +/-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/- 5.3 +/- 2.9 +/- 4.4 +/- 4.0 Q2 2009 +/- 0.8 +/- 0.8 +/-6.1 +/- 3.0 +/- 4.3 +/- 3.9 Q3 2009 +/- 0.8 +/- 0.9 +/- 6.0 +/- 3.3 +/-5.1 +/- 4.4 Q4 2009 +/-0.7 +/- 0.8 +/-4.7 +1-2.9 +/- 4.8 +/- 4.2 293W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 294W

Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Table 2: Number and percentage of males aged 16-24 who are not in education, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how employment or training (NEET) 95 Per cent. many (a) men and (b) women were not in education, Number of Percentage confidence employment or training in each quarter of the last five 16-24 year (of all 16-24 interval years. [320064] old males year old (percentage Quarter Year NEET males) points) Kevin Brennan: The following tables show the number Q2 2006 367,000 12.6 +/- 0.9 and percentage of 16-24 year old men (table 2) and Q3 2006 415,000 14.0 +/-1.0 women (table 1) in England who were not in education, Q4 2006 361,000 12.1 +/- 0.9 employment or training in each quarter of the last five Q1 2007 371,000 12.5 +/-0.9 years. Q2 2007 359,000 12.1 +/-0.9 These estimates are taken from the Labour Force Q3 2007 393,000 13.2 +/- 0.9 survey which, as with any sample survey, is subject to Q4 2007 336,000 11.1 +/- 0.9 sampling variability. The estimates should therefore be Q1 2008 357,000 11.8 +/- 0.9 considered along side their confidence intervals (CIs). Q2 2008 350,000 11.4 +/-0.9 CIs indicate how accurate an estimate is, for example, a Q3 2008 415,000 13.6 +/-1.0 95 per cent. CI of+/-1.2 percentage points (pp) means Q4 2008 363,000 11.9 +/- 0.9 that the true value is between 1.2pp above the estimate Q1 2009 437,000 14.3 +/-1.0 and 1.2pp below the estimate, for 95 per cent. of estimates. Q2 2009 446,000 14.6 +/-1.0 Q3 2009 509,000 16.6 +/-1.1 Table 1: Number and percentage of females aged 16-24 who are not in education, Q4 2009 403,000 13.2 +/-1.0 employment or training (NEET). 95 Per cent Percentage confidence Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Number of (of all interval 16-24 year 16-24 year (percentage Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Quarter Year old females old females points) many people were not in education, employment or training in each (a) local authority area and (b) region Q1 2005 432,000 15.5 +/-1.0 in each quarter of the last five years. [320078] Q2 2005 456,000 16.2 +/-1.0 Q3 2005 504,000 17.7 +/-1.J Kevin Brennan: The following tables give the number Q4 2005 462,000 16.3 +/-1.0 (table 1) and proportion (table 2) of people aged 16 to Q1 2006 457,000 16.2 +/-1.0 241 not in education, employment or training (NEET) Q2 2006 484,000 17.0 +/-1.0 for each region in England for every quarter for the last Q3 2006 554,000 19.4 +/-1.1 five years. These estimates are from the Labour Force Q4 2006 446,000 15.5 +/-1.0 Survey, which has been recently reweighted to revised Q1 2007 456,000 15.8 +/-1.0 population estimates and therefore may be marginally Q2 2007 474,000 16.4 +/-1.0 different from regional NEET estimates provided previously. Q3 2007 515,000 17.6 +/-1.0 As with any sample survey, the LFS is subject to Q4 2007 444,000 15.2 +/-1.0 sampling variability and therefore should be viewed in Q1 2008 452,000 15.5 +/-1.0 conjunction with their Confidence Intervals (CI). CIs Q2 2008 487,000 16.5 +/-1.0 indicate how accurate an estimate is, and for regional Q3 2008 554,000 18.8 +/-1.1 estimates they range from +/- 1.5 to +/- 3.9 percentage Q4 2008 491,000 16.5 +/-1.0 points (pp), with an average of+/- 2.2pp. CIs for Q4 Q1 2009 497,000 16.8 +/-1.1 2009 have been provided below and a 95 per cent. CI Q2 2009 510,000 17.2 +/-1.1 of+A-2.2 percentage points (pp) means that the true Q3 2009 565,000 19.2 +/- 1.2 value is between 2.2pp above the estimate and 2.2pp Q4 2009 493,000 16.5 +/-1.1 below the estimate, for 95 per cent. of estimates.

Table 2: Number and percentage of males aged 16-24 who are not in education, The Labour Force Survey sample is not large enough employment or training (NEET) to provide quarterly estimates for small geographies 95 Per cent. such as local authority areas. We are able to give annual Number of Percentage confidence estimates for local authorities from the Annual Population 16-24 year (of all 16-24 interval old males year old (percentage Survey, which has a larger sample. The most recent Quarter Year NEET males) points) estimate available is for 2008 and I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 6 January 2010, Q1 2005 311,000 10.9 +/- 0.9 Official Report, column reference 402W which provided Q2 2005 314,000 10.9 +/-0.9 estimates for local education authorities between 2000 Q3 2005 373,000 12.8 +/-0.9 and 2008. Q4 2005 376,000 12.9 +/-1.0 1 Age used is respondents academic age, which is defined QI 2006 344,000 11.8 +/-0.9 as their age at the preceding 31 August

Table 1: The number of people aged 16-24 who are not in education, employment or training by region North North York and East West East of South Quarter East West Humber Midlands Midlands England London South East West

Q1 2005 56,000 110,000 89,000 61,000 81,000 60,000 131,000 92,000 63,000 Q2 2005 62,000 117,000 99,000 59,000 88,000 66,000 134,000 85,000 61,000 Q3 2005 68,000 124,000 107,000 67,000 100,000 69,000 156,000 110,000 76,000 295W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 296W

Table 1: The number of people aged 16-24 who are not in education, employment or training by region North North York and East West East of South Quarter East West Humber Midlands Midlands England London South East West

Q4 2005 61,000 114,000 107,000 70,000 93,000 77,000 143,000 110,000 63,000 Q1 2006 52,000 118,000 93,000 77,000 90,000 72,000 132,000 105,000 61,000 Q2 2006 52,000 128,000 105,000 76,000 97,000 86,000 141,000 108,000 59,000 Q3 2006 53,000 140,000 118,000 81,000 112,000 93,000 184,000 115,000 74,000 Q4 2006 45,000 120,000 95,000 65,000 96,000 77,000 147,000 93,000 68,000 Q1 2007 48,000 127,000 96,000 72,000 111,000 77,000 118,000 107,000 70,000 Q2 2007 47,000 134,000 92,000 66,000 106,000 84,000 130,000 112,000 61,000 Q3 2007 52,000 144,000 105,000 81,000 111,000 92,000 135,000 125,000 63,000 Q4 2007 49,000 120,000 82,000 70,000 92,000 74,000 122,000 116,000 56,000 Q1 2008 53,000 135,000 75,000 69,000 95,000 87,000 128,000 104,000 62,000 Q2 2008 56,000 138,000 101,000 70,000 98,000 77,000 130,000 111,000 55,000 Q3 2008 65,000 149,000 119,000 86,000 119,000 83,000 146,000 131,000 71,000 Q4 2008 55,000 141,000 92,000 68,000 104,000 80,000 126,000 124,000 64,000 Q1 2009 58,000 156,000 109,000 70,000 125,000 84,000 120,000 132,000 80,000 Q2 2009 68,000 155,000 123,000 76,000 129,000 83,000 111,000 144,000 68,000 Q3 2009 72,000 181,000 130,000 92,000 121,000 93,000 148,000 147,000 89,000 Q4 2009 68,000 139,000 114,000 72,000 103,000 88,000 119,000 119,000 73,000 Q4 2009 CIs (95% PP) +/-12,000 +/-17,000 +/-15,000 +/-12,000 +/-15,000 +/-14,000 +/-17,000 +/-16,000 +/-13,000

Table 2: The proportion of all people aged 16-24 who are not in education, employment or training by region North North York and East West East of South South Quarter East West Humber Midlands Midlands England London East West

Q1 2005 18 14 14 12 13 10 16 11 12 Q2 2005 20 15 16 12 14 11 15 10 11 Q3 2005 23 15 17 13 16 12 18 13 14 Q4 2005 19 14 17 14 15 13 17 13 12 Q1 2006 17 15 14 15 15 12 15 12 11 Q2 2006 17 16 16 15 16 14 16 13 11 Q3 2006 17 17 18 16 18 16 21 13 14 Q4 2006 14 14 14 12 15 13 17 10 12 Q1 2007 15 15 14 14 18 13 14 12 13 Q2 2007 15 16 14 13 17 14 15 12 11 Q3 2007 16 17 16 15 18 15 16 14 11 Q4 2007 15 14 12 13 15 12 14 13 10 Q1 2008 16 16 11 13 15 14 15 11 11 Q2 2008 17 16 15 13 16 13 14 12 10 Q3 2008 20 18 18 16 19 13 16 14 13 Q4 2008 17 17 14 13 16 13 15 13 11 Q1 2009 18 19 16 13 20 14 14 14 14 Q2 2009 21 18 18 14 20 13 13 15 12 Q3 2009 22 21 19 17 19 15 17 16 16 Q4 2009 21 16 17 13 16 14 14 13 13 Q4 2009 95% CIs (PP) +/-3.7 +/- 2.0 +/- 2.2 +/- 2.3 +/- 2.3 +/- 2.2 +/- 2.0 +/- 1.7 +/- 2.2

CABINET OFFICE Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether the Office for National Statistics sets a minimum threshold for the number of Census: Ethnic Groups respondents to a specified ethnic group category in deciding on its inclusion or continued inclusion in the Census. [320532] Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office to what extent the equality impact Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls assessment conducted by the Office for National within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Statistics in respect of the 2011 census question I have asked the Authority to reply. Copies of the letters development considered the effect on equality of how will be placed in the Libraries of the House. public bodies use the ethnic group data in meeting the Race Relations Act public sector duties. [320531] Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether the equality impact assessment Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls conducted by the Office for National Statistics in within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. respect of the 2011 Census question considered the I have asked the Authority to reply. Copies of the letters effect on equality of not including legally defined races will be placed in the Libraries of the House. within the mandatory ethnic group question; and if she will make a statement. [320533] 297W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 298W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Angela E. Smith: Information is not held centrally for within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. capability procedures or disciplinary procedures which I have asked the Authority to reply. Copies of the letters are managed by Units. To obtain the information and will be placed in the Libraries of the House. calculate the time taken to complete these cases would require a request to each manager within the Cabinet Central Office of Information: Advertising Office and therefore represents a disproportionate cost. It is Cabinet Office policy not to report information Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet which may identify individuals, and therefore the data Office what the estimated monetary value is of the for dismissals has been withheld. Central Office of Information framework agreement on classified and recruitment advertising. [320728] Departmental Public Relations Tessa Jowell: I have asked the chief executive of the Central Office of Information to write to the hon. Angus Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Member. Office which public relations companies have had contracts with (a) her Department and (b) each (i) Letter from Mark Lund, dated 3 March 2010: non-departmental public body and (ii) executive As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information agency for which her Department is responsible since (COI), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question 2004. [321316] [320728] asking for the estimated monetary value of the classified and recruitment advertising framework. Angela E. Smith: The information requested of the The estimated value of the framework for a four year period, Cabinet Office is not readily available and could be when operational, will be up to a maximum value of £16 million. obtained only at disproportionate cost. Civil Servants Departmental Training Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the mean salary of a Grade 7 civil servant Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister for the was at the latest date for which information is available. Cabinet Office how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil [320733] servants in her Department received coaching in a foreign language in the last 12 months; what Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls expenditure her Department incurred in providing such within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. coaching; and in what languages such coaching was I have asked the authority to reply. provided. [320410] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 9 March 2010: Angela E. Smith: There has been no centrally organised As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question foreign language coaching for (a) Ministers and (b) concerning, what the mean salary of a Grade 7 civil servant was civil servants in Cabinet Office in the last twelve months. at the latest date for which information is available. (320733) All Cabinet Office Management Units have delegated The Office for National Statistics collects the annual salaries of responsibility for their training budgets. This enables civil servants, as part of the Annual Civil Service Employment them to fund learning and development. Information Survey (ACSES). on attendance and cost is not held centrally and could The mean salary of a Grade 7 civil servant at 31 March 2009 only be obtained at disproportionate cost. was £49,290. Dorneywood and Chevening Civil Servants: Training Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office which guests were entertained at (a) Office with reference to the answer of 2 June 2009, Dorneywood and (b) Chevening in each month since Official Report, column 422W, on civil servants, if she June 2007; and on what date each guest was present. will place in the Library a copy of the guidance to civil [317598] servants on taking minutes. [312305] Tessa Jowell: The information requested is not held Tessa Jowell: A copy of “Guide to Minute Taking” by the Cabinet Office. has been placed in the Library. The use of Dorneywood is a matter for the Chancellor Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings of the Exchequer and the Trustees who manage the estate. The use of Chevening is a matter for the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and Barry Gardiner: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Chevening Trustees who manage the estate. Office how many (a) disciplinary and (b) capability procedures have been (i) initiated and (ii) completed in her Department in each of the last five years; how Equality Bill much time on average was taken to complete each type of procedure in each such year; how many and what John Howell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet proportion of her Department’s staff were subject to Office whether the proposed new duty to tackle each type of procedures in each such year; and how socio-economic inequalities in the Equality Bill is to many and what proportion of each type of procedure apply to all local authorities and fire authorities. resulted in the dismissal of the member of staff. [320633] [321006] 299W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 300W

Michael Jabez Foster: The duty will apply to local Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls authorities, and to fire and rescue authorities (FRAs) within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. where these form part of a local authority. We are I have asked the authority to reply. discussing with the fire and rescue service and other Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: appropriate stakeholders whether the duty should in As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I due course be extended to all FRAs. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what methodology the ONS uses to calculate its Mid-Year Members: Correspondence Population Estimates (320726). The ONS produces annual estimates of the resident population Mr. Whittingdale: To ask the Minister for the of England and Wales as at 30 June each year. ONS Mid-Year Population Estimates are calculated using the cohort component Cabinet Office when she expects to the reply to the method. This is an established demographic method which is letters of 10 December 2008, 15 July 2009 and internationally recognised. The method takes the previous year’s 11 November 2009 from the hon. Member for Maldon population estimate, ages the population by one year, adds in the and East Chelmsford on behalf of a constituent, Mrs births and takes away the deaths that have taken place during the E. P. Molloy. [320292] year and accounts for both international and internal long-term migration. Adjustments are also made for changes to the numbers Angela E. Smith: Letters dated 10 December 2008 of armed forces, prisoners and pupils in boarding schools. and 15 July 2009 were transferred to Treasury on The annotated flow-chart ‘Mid-year Population Estimates: 22 December 2008 and 22 July 2009 respectively. The England & Wales’ provides a detailed summary of the cohort component method as used by ONS. A copy has been placed in Department has no record of receiving correspondence the House of Commons Library. from the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford dated 11 November 2009. The Government, and ONS in particular, have invested heavily in improving the sources and methods used to produce the population estimates. The Migration Statistics Improvement Official Residences Programme has already delivered substantial benefits, including improved methods for population estimates that will be published in May 2010. These are a result of extensive research by ONS and Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet a large scale engagement programme with users. Office for how many months each of the unoccupied ministerial residences in Admiralty House has been empty; and how much has been paid in (a) utility bills Self-employed: St. Albans and (b) council tax in respect of each such property in each such period. [318250] Anne Main: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people resident in St Albans Tessa Jowell: I refer the right hon. Member to the constituency were recorded as self-employed in each answer I gave to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield year since 1997. [320888] (Grant Shapps) on 11 January 2010, Official Report, columns 712-13W, and the answer given to the hon. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on 23 March within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 2009, Official Report, column 127W. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: Official Residences: Empty Property As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many people resident in St Albans constituency were recorded Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for the as self-employed in each year since 1997.(320888) Cabinet Office (1) how many months each vacant The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment Ministerial residence has been empty; and how much statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey has been paid in council tax on each such residence (APS) and its predecessor the annual Labour Force Survey (LFS) since it became vacant; [319559] following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. (2) what the costs in (a) rent, (b) council tax, (c) Unfortunately the sample size does not support analyses of self utilities, (d) cleaning and maintenance and (e) other employed for the constituencies. running costs of each individual Ministerial residence National and local area estimates for many labour market in Admiralty House were in the most recent year for statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: which figures are available. [319639] http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Unemployment Shapps) on 11 January 2010, Official Report, column 712-13W and the answer given to the hon. Member for Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on 23 March 2009, Official Office how many people were not in education, Report, column 127W. employment or training in each quarter since April 2008. [320176] Population: Statistics Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The following table shows the number and percentage Office what methodology the Office for National of all 16-241 year-olds in England who were not in Statistics uses to calculate its mid-year population education, employment or training (NEET) in each estimates. [320726] quarter since Q2 2008. 301W Written Answers9 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 302W

These estimates are taken from the Labour Force The Department for Children Schools and Families Survey which, as with any sample survey, is subject to (DCSF) publishes the above estimates every quarter sampling variability. The estimates should therefore and the further information can be found here be considered along side their Confidence Intervals http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000913/ (CIs). CIs indicate how accurate an estimate is, for NEETQBQ42009final.pdf example, a 95% CI of+/-0.7 percentage points (pp) Unemployment: Young People means that the true value is between 0.7pp above the estimate and 0.7pp below the estimate, for 95 per cent. Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office of estimates. for what average length of time young persons who These figures are not seasonally adjusted and therefore have been unemployed for six months or more in each adjacent quarters are not directly comparable. district of Manchester have been unemployed. [321080] Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls 1Age used is respondents academic age. which is defined within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. as their age at the preceding 31 August I have asked the authority to reply. Table: Number and percentage of 16-24 year olds not in education, employment and training. Letter from Stephen Penneck dated March 2010: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Percentage of 95% Number of all 16-24 confidence have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking 16-24 year- year-old intervals for what average length of time young persons who have been Quarter old NEETs NEET (pp) unemployed for six months or more in each of the 10 Manchester districts have been unemployed. (321080) Q2 2008 837,000 13.9 +/-0.7 The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment Q3 2008 969,000 16.1 +/-0.7 statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey Q4 2008 854,000 14.2 +/-0.7 (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Q1 2009 933,000 15.5 +/-0.7 Unfortunately the sample size does not support analyses of unemployment for the requested geography. Q2 2009 956,000 15.8 +/-0.8 National and local area estimates for many labour market Q3 2009 1,074,000 17.9 +/-0.8 statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Q4 2009 895,000 14.8 +/-0.7 count are available on the NOMIS website at http://www.nomisweb.co.uk

3MC Ministerial Corrections9 MARCH 2010 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

(b) Mr. Charlie Whelan and (c) Mr. Damian McBride Ministerial Correction last entered the Downing Street/Cabinet Office complex as a visitor. [318328] Tuesday 9 March 2010 [Official Report, 3 March 2010, Vol. 506, c. 1189W.] Letter of correction from Tessa Jowell: An error has been identified in the response given to CABINET OFFICE the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) on 3 March 2010. The date and column reference of the 10 Downing Street Official Report were incorrectly given as 4 February 2010, Official Report, column 877W. Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The correct answer should have been: Office pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2010, Official Report, column 508W, on departmental Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer official hospitality, on what date (a) Mr. Derek Draper, given on 9 February 2010, Official Report, column 888W.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 133 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Efficiency Savings ...... 133 continued Gypsy and Traveller Sites...... 142 Planning Appeals...... 133 Home Information Packs...... 146 Regional Regeneration...... 137 House Building Projects...... 138 Regional Regeneration...... 146 House Building Targets...... 145 Topical Questions ...... 148 Local Authorities (Recession) ...... 140 Unitary Authorities (Essex)...... 140 Massage Parlours...... 145 Unitary Authority (Norfolk)...... 141 Non-Domestic Rates...... 143 Working Neighbourhoods Fund ...... 144 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 9 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .7WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 10WS Planning...... 7WS HMT Contingency Fund ...... 10WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 9WS Television Licence Fees ...... 9WS JUSTICE...... 10WS DEFENCE...... 9WS Bilingual Juries (Wales)...... 10WS Skynet 5D ...... 9WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 11WS AFFAIRS...... 9WS Bus Passenger Services...... 12WS Dangerous Dogs ...... 9WS EU Transport Council ...... 11WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 9 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 3P TRANSPORT—continued Station Footbridge Repair ...... 3P Traffic Calming (Irchester)...... 4P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 274W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult Education: Fees and Charges ...... 274W Private Finance Initiative ...... 288W Adult Education: Finance...... 275W Public Holidays...... 288W Audit: Misconduct ...... 275W Skills Funding Agency ...... 288W Banks...... 276W Supermarkets: Competition ...... 289W Bearwood Corporate Services ...... 276W Trade Promotion: Indonesia ...... 289W Building Colleges for the Future Programme ...... 276W Trade Promotion: Turkey...... 290W Departmental Advertising...... 283W UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Departmental Correspondence ...... 283W Organisation ...... 290W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 283W Unemployment ...... 290W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 283W Engineering: Construction ...... 284W CABINET OFFICE...... 295W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 284W Census: Ethnic Groups ...... 295W Holiday Leave ...... 285W Central Office of Information: Advertising...... 297W Minimum Wage ...... 285W Civil Servants...... 297W Mobile Phones: Competition ...... 286W Civil Servants: Training...... 297W Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance...... 286W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 297W National Enterprise Academy: Expenditure...... 286W Departmental Public Relations ...... 298W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 287W Departmental Training ...... 298W Overseas Trade: Kazakhstan...... 287W Dorneywood and Chevening...... 298W Post Office...... 287W Equality Bill...... 298W Post Offices: Greater London...... 288W Members: Correspondence ...... 299W Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE—continued DEFENCE—continued Official Residences ...... 299W Gurkhas...... 172W Official Residences: Empty Property...... 299W Nimrod Aircraft...... 172W Population: Statistics...... 299W Royal Irish Regiment ...... 173W Self-employed: St. Albans ...... 300W World War II: Memorials...... 173W Unemployment ...... 300W Unemployment: Young People...... 302W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 253W Biofuels...... 253W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 200W Carbon Sequestration ...... 253W Education: International Cooperation ...... 200W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 254W Educational Institutions: Tower Hamlets...... 201W Departmental ICT ...... 254W Faith Schools: Equality...... 201W Departmental Languages...... 254W Parenting Orders...... 202W Departmental Public Relations ...... 254W Personal Social and Health Education ...... 202W Electricity...... 255W Schools: Fires...... 202W Electricity Generation...... 256W Teachers: Training...... 203W Energy: Prices ...... 256W Truancy...... 204W Energy Supply...... 256W Fossil Fuels: Imports...... 257W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 207W Fossil Fuels: Russia...... 257W Affordable Housing...... 208W Fuel Poverty...... 258W Antisocial Behaviour...... 210W Housing: Insulation ...... 258W Departmental Consultants...... 210W Insulation...... 260W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 211W Insulation: Government Assistance...... 259W Empty Property ...... 211W Joint Research Centre ...... 259W Energy Performance Certificates...... 212W Natural Gas ...... 260W Fire Services...... 213W Natural Gas: Electricity ...... 261W Homes and Communities Agency: Finance ...... 213W Natural Gas: Imports...... 261W Homes and Communities Agency: Pay ...... 214W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 261W Housing: Empty Property ...... 214W Nuclear Power: Research ...... 262W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 214W Public Bodies: Energy ...... 262W Lighthouse Project: Finance ...... 215W Renewable Energy...... 262W Local Government: Apprentices ...... 215W Warm Front Scheme ...... 263W Local Government Representation ...... 207W Wind Power ...... 264W Multiple Occupation: Greater London ...... 215W Planning: Public Consultation ...... 207W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Property Development: Floods ...... 215W AFFAIRS...... 160W Regional Spatial Strategies...... 207W Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund: Tenancy Deposit Schemes...... 216W Nottinghamshire...... 160W Valuation Office ...... 216W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 161W West Midlands Fire Service...... 207W Departmental Internet ...... 163W Working Neighbourhoods Fund ...... 207W Dogs: Animal Welfare...... 163W Fish: Animal Feed...... 164W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 173W Fisheries: Carbon Emissions...... 164W Bletchley Park Museum ...... 173W Oils: Waste Disposal ...... 165W Cricket: Finance...... 174W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 167W Culture: Finance ...... 174W Public Holidays...... 167W Departmental Databases...... 174W Sheep: Slaughterhouses...... 167W Departmental Location...... 174W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 175W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 250W Departmental Public Consultation...... 175W Colombia: Human Rights ...... 250W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 175W Departmental ICT ...... 250W Departmental Travel ...... 175W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 250W Foreign Companies: Finance ...... 176W EU Countries: Overseas Workers...... 251W Illegal Immigrants...... 176W Israel: Courts Martial ...... 251W National Skills Academy for Creative and Kazakhstan: Politics and Government...... 251W Cultural Skills: Thurrock ...... 177W Members: Correspondence ...... 253W Public Houses: Greater London...... 177W Public Libraries: Greater London ...... 177W HEALTH...... 185W Swimming: Concessions...... 178W Alcoholic Drinks: Health Education...... 185W Theatre: Young People ...... 178W Aortic Aneurysm: Screening ...... 186W Tourism...... 181W Autism: Drugs...... 186W Autism: Health Services ...... 187W DEFENCE...... 168W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 187W Air Force: Snow and Ice...... 168W Departmental Paper...... 188W Armed Forces: Health Services ...... 169W General Practitioners: Bexley...... 188W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 170W General Practitioners: Fees and Charges...... 189W Armed Forces: Military Decorations ...... 170W Health Services: Guernsey ...... 189W Army: Lost Property...... 170W Home Care Services: Finance ...... 189W Copthorne Barracks...... 170W Hospitals: Consultants...... 189W Departmental Travel ...... 171W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 190W Future Large Aircraft ...... 171W Maternity Services ...... 190W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued SCOTLAND...... 168W Medical Treatments Abroad...... 191W Departmental Buildings...... 168W Mid Staffordshire General Hospitals NHS Trust ... 192W Midwives: Manpower...... 192W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 182W Myelodysplastic Syndromes...... 192W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 182W NHS: Assets...... 194W Trade Unions ...... 183W NHS Foundation Trusts...... 193W NHS: Procurement ...... 193W TRANSPORT ...... 157W NHS: Public Relations ...... 194W Aviation: Security ...... 157W Obesity: Children ...... 195W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 157W Obesity: Surgery...... 195W Geographical Information Systems...... 157W Primary Care Trusts: Contracts ...... 195W Government Car and Despatch Agency: Driving Sexually Transmitted Diseases ...... 196W Offences ...... 158W Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Essex...... 196W Illegal Immigrants...... 158W Pilots: Licensing...... 159W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 217W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 159W Alcoholic Drinks: Young People ...... 217W Snow and Ice...... 160W Antisocial Behaviour: Alcoholic Drinks...... 219W Waterloo Station ...... 160W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 218W Asylum ...... 219W TREASURY ...... 263W Asylum: Newcastle upon Tyne...... 219W Civil Servants: Location...... 263W Binyam Mohamed ...... 220W Construction Industry Training Board...... 265W Communications Capabilities Directorate...... 220W Contingent Liabilities...... 265W Deportation ...... 220W Departmental Advisory Bodies...... 266W Drugs...... 221W Departmental Buildings...... 266W Drugs: Misuse...... 221W Departmental Television ...... 266W Electronic Government: International Employment ...... 266W Cooperation...... 221W Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 267W Entry Clearances...... 222W Government Departments: Carbon Emissions...... 267W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 222W International Advisory Business Council ...... 269W Firearms: Crime...... 223W Investment ...... 270W Identity Cards: Databases ...... 224W Loans...... 270W Identity Cards: Marketing...... 224W Public Bodies: Buildings...... 271W Illegal Immigrants...... 225W Public Bodies: Location ...... 271W Immigration...... 225W Public Sector: Pay ...... 271W Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 .... 225W Revenue and Customs: Hotels...... 272W Members: Correspondence ...... 226W Revenue and Customs: Pay ...... 272W Police: Vehicles...... 227W Tax Allowances...... 273W Sexual Offences...... 227W Tax Collection...... 273W UK Border Agency: Complaints...... 227W Taxation: Football ...... 274W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 184W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 199W Buildings...... 184W Rape: Victim Support Schemes ...... 199W Nurseries...... 185W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 229W Departmental Advertising...... 229W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 184W Departmental Illegal Immigrants...... 229W World Water Day ...... 184W Departmental Manpower...... 230W Departmental Training ...... 230W JUSTICE...... 240W Departmental Voluntary Work ...... 230W Fraud: Convictions ...... 240W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 231W Illegal Immigrants...... 241W Evaluation of Access to Work...... 231W Legal Aid ...... 245W Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit...... 232W National Offender Management Service: Redundancy: Public Sector ...... 232W Manpower ...... 246W Social Security Benefits: Disabled ...... 233W Prison Accommodation: Per Capita Costs ...... 247W Social Security Benefits: Dundee...... 235W Prisons: Mobile Phones...... 247W Social Security Benefits: Na h-Eileanan an Iar...... 236W Youth Custody: Manpower...... 249W Social Security Benefits: Young People ...... 236W Unemployment Benefits...... 237W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 167W Unemployment Benefits: Medical Examinations ... 238W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 167W Work Capability Assessment...... 239W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 9 March 2010

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 March 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 133] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government

Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation [Col. 156] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Clive Efford)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day[5th allotted day] Health Care in London [Col. 160] Motion—(Mr. Lansley)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mr. Mike O’Brien)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Local Government (Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk) [Col. 219] Motion—(Robert Neill)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Ms Rosie Winterton)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 271]

Petrol Filling Stations [Col. 272] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Motoring [Col. 1WH] Raising of the Pension Age [Col. 23WH] Tankers (Lyme Bay) [Col. 47WH] 2012 Olympics (Employment) [Col. 54WH] Passenger Safety (Railway Platforms) [Col. 61WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]

Petitions [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 157W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]