Wednesday Volume 494 17 June 2009 No. 93

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 17 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 285 17 JUNE 2009 286

John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) House of Commons (LD): The Secretary of State mentioned that he has had meetings with people in the renewable energy sector. What conversations has he had with his colleague, the Wednesday 17 June 2009 Chancellor of the Exchequer, on securing some of the £400 million that has been announced for that sector? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Has the Secretary of State given particular thought to how the money might be used for marine renewable energy in the Pentland firth? PRAYERS Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman has raised that important issue with me in the past, and I look forward [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] to visiting his constituency in the parliamentary recess to discuss the points that he raises about the Pentland firth. I have spoken to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the issues. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to Oral Answers to Questions know that about a third of the £750 million strategic investment fund established by the Government is to be earmarked for low-carbon investment. We now have to see what opportunities for the type of marine technology SCOTLAND that he mentions are provided by that fund, the additional sources of Government support and the private sector. There is an enormous opportunity for a green industrial The Secretary of State was asked— revolution in Scotland and beyond. Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Thank Automotive Industry you very much, Mr. Speaker, for all your kindness during the years in which you have been in the Chair. 1. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) I may have to declare an interest, as I have a car that (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with is more than 10 years old, and the Donohoe household representatives of the car manufacturing and trading is looking for a new one. May I ask my right hon. sectors in Scotland on Government support for the Friend the Secretary of State to give me some indication industry. [279144] of the number of applications made under the scrappage scheme? The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): Mr. Speaker, good morning, and thank you for all the Mr. Murphy: There is certainly great evidence to be guidance that you have given me and so many others in had from car dealers across Scotland. When I visited all parts of the House over the years. Arnold Clark in Stirling, along with my right hon. I have met Scottish manufacturers, including Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire), people representatives from the car industry, to discuss the car there were saying how popular the scheme was. The scrappage scheme. I have also met people from Scottish Government are working to provide specific figures companies that work in climate change technologies, shortly, but Douglas Robertson, the chief executive of which are, of course, an enormous growth area in the Scottish Motor Trade Association, has said: Scotland. “The arrival of the government backed scrappage scheme has without doubt affected Scotland’s figures. Traditionally Scotland Jim Sheridan: I share the comments made by the has always had, on average, the oldest cars in the UK so it is to be Secretary of State for Scotland on how welcome you expected that we should show the most benefit from the scheme.” have been, Mr. Speaker, to us on the Labour Benches. That is the intention behind the scheme; it is a kick-start I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. The car for the motor industry, and it is supportive of the scrappage scheme is helping manufacturing and UK environmental industries as well. consumers. However, there remains genuine concern among car retailers, such as John McGuire in my Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): The constituency, about the Treasury’s recent decision on Secretary of State will know that manufacturing industry, the vehicle excise duty refund. Will the Secretary of including the car industry, is vital to the recovery of not State make representations to the Treasury to get that only the Scottish but the United Kingdom, economy. Is decision overturned? he confident that the Government are not loading additional burdens on manufacturing and industry, at a time when Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend has raised that matter competitiveness is very important? Secondly, does he with the Treasury on a number of occasions. The gentleman believe that the banking system, which has benefited whom he mentions, Mr. McGuire at Phoenix Honda, from huge taxpayer largesse, is playing its role in ensuring operates a company in his constituency but is a constituent the success and survival of manufacturing industry? of mine, so he has also come to my surgeries. Mr. McGuire raises important points on behalf of his company and Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman raises a serious many others across Scotland. I know that my hon. point. The car industry is of strategic importance across Friend will continue to raise the matter with the Treasury. the UK. There are about half a million people employed If there is anything that I can do to assist in that, I will in the motor retail sector across the UK, so there is a of course be happy to do it. challenge not just in Scotland, but throughout the 287 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 288

United Kingdom. We always have to bear in mind the about what happens in respect of the British National balance of regulation and bureaucracy in the private party. Of course we all know that its members are sector, as well as in the public sector, and the need to do racists and anti-Semites, but their vote in Scotland has so is particularly acute at a time of economic difficulty. gone from near zero a decade ago to 27,000 at the Along with the rest of the Government, we are seized of European elections. The proportion of the BNP vote in the need to ensure that, where possible, regulation has Scotland was higher than the ethnic minority proportion as light a touch as possible on the motor industry and of the population in Scotland as shown in the most others, particularly at this difficult time. recent census. Despite the complacency that sometimes creeps into Scottish politics, I believe that the BNP is Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): Contrary also a Scottish problem. to the Government’s spin on the car scrappage scheme, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): Is it not said that new car registrations in May fell at an annual clear that public investment is vital to the Scottish rate of 25 per cent.—almost no change from the previous economy, especially at a time of recession? Is not one of month. This month Ministers had to concede that four the strengths of the Calman commission report the fact months after Lord Mandelson launched his £2.3 billion that its recommendations will give the Scottish Government automotive assistance programme not a single penny of the day greater scope and flexibility over public from the scheme has been received by struggling firms. spending? On a day when it is revealed that the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Scotland has doubled Mr. Murphy: The Calman commission report has in one year alone, is it not about time that the Government been welcomed across Scotland, except by a small number matched their words with actions and offered real help on the Opposition Benches. The Calman commission is to hard-working families across the country, rather than about a different type of devolution. It is about making just headlines and spin? decisions that affect the people of Scotland in Scotland, and it delivers a stronger Scotland inside a stronger Mr. Murphy: There we have it: the authentic voice of United Kingdom. It also ensures that there is greater the Scottish Conservative party, via Lancaster. The responsibility in the Scottish Parliament for the decisions hon. Gentleman neither understands nor has any real that it makes on spending. sympathy for the people of Scotland. Of course there are real difficulties in the Scottish and UK economy, Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Secretary of but he should stop playing politics and remember that State is right to point out that the Calman commission when the Conservatives were in power their message recommended limited additional powers for the Scottish was “Get on your bike and search for work” and that Parliament. The First Minister has offered to test that unemployment was a price worth paying. We will do proposition and independence in a referendum. Does everything we can to help Scotland through the current the Secretary of State not agree that the people should recession. We have looked at the lessons of the recession decide that? of the 1980s, when communities were destroyed and families were scourged by unemployment across the Mr. Murphy: The SNP does not know which way to generations, and we are determined that there will not face on the report. We have the ludicrous sight of a be a generational consequence of this recession in Scotland. nationalist party opposing more power for a Scottish Parliament. It could not be made up in any fantasy Public Expenditure world of politics. Although the Scottish Government have confirmed again today, as I understand it, that 2. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): How they will not do the right thing by participating in the much public expenditure there was in Scotland per steering group on Calman, I ask the hon. Gentleman to capita in 2008-09. [279145] have words with his friends in the Scottish National party and persuade them to do the sensible thing, and The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): not to ban Scottish civil servants from helping to make The Calman commission considered these issues. In the Calman commission the type of report that it can 2007-08 the total expenditure on services per head in be—a report that strengthens the Union and delivers Scotland was £9,032. Scotland and England have seen responsible devolution to Scotland. similar percentage increases over the past decade. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Mr. Bone: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for I add my tribute to you, Mr. Speaker, for your support that response, and I am delighted that he survived the and for your service. night of the blunt knives. He is, of course, a highly Does the Secretary of State agree that the Calman respected Minister, but more importantly, he is a strong commission is a very radical and positive step forward Unionist. My constituents have a third less public for Scotland, and that when the Scottish Parliament is expenditure spent on them than is spent in Scotland. spending public money, it should be accountable for it? Does the Secretary of State share my concern that this imbalance weakens the Union? Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend and I were elected on the same day in 1997 on the manifesto commitment to Mr. Murphy: I do not share the view that the Barnett deliver devolution for Scotland. Devolution has been a formula or the method of funding across this disparate remarkable success, but it can be better still: more Kingdom in any way fuels extremism or is a cause of power for Scotland, doing what is best for Scotland and the vile British National party support. I do not agree ensuring that Scotland stands strong within the United with that. In Scotland, on occasion, there is complacency Kingdom. I believe—but, more importantly, most people 289 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 290 in Scotland share the view—that Scotland, England, David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Wales and Northern Ireland are stronger together in the Tweeddale) (Con): I am sure that over the past 30 years, United Kingdom. We would be weaker if we followed Scottish questions will have been the highlight of your the SNP’s policies of separating Scotland from the rest parliamentary calendar, Mr. Speaker. May I use this of the United Kingdom. occasion not just to thank you and Mary for the personal kindness that you have always shown me, but to recognise Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): The the outstanding contribution that you have made to Secretary of State will be well aware of the sterile public life in Glasgow, in Scotland and throughout the exchanges in recent days about the future of public United Kingdom? expenditure in the United Kingdom. Will he promise to Does the Secretary of State agree that, unlike the put aside the smoke and mirrors and to level with the First Minister of Scotland, the Calman commission people of Scotland about the consequences for public based its analysis of public expenditure in Scotland on expenditure of the inevitable and necessary efforts to research and fact, rather than on soundbites? Does the reduce record deficits? Secretary of State welcome the commission’s suggestion Mr. Murphy: As I have said from this Dispatch Box of an updated needs assessment for the overall level of on numerous occasions, the budget for the Scottish spending in each part of the United Kingdom? In the Government has doubled over the past 10 years. The meantime, how does he envisage the welcome steering current First Minister has more than double the budget group that has been established taking forward the of Scotland’s first First Minister, Donald Dewar. Of commission’s recommendations for reshaping the course, the Scottish Government have to try to make mechanism by which Scotland receives 60 per cent. of savings, but even after any efficiencies they will have its public spending, and over which the Scottish Parliament more money next year than they have this year, and that has control? is because of continued Labour investment. We are Mr. Murphy: Of course, the Government and the determined to ensure that that money continues to go Treasury continue to consider the wider needs assessment to Scotland to help Scottish families. and keep it under review. I am delighted that the hon. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Mr. Speaker, I Gentleman and his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament would like to thank you for your unfailing friendship will serve on the steering group, which I will chair. It is over many years. I appreciate it very much. about maintaining the consensus that has developed around Calman and building the momentum to deliver The Calman commission might be good for Scotland on the Calman proposals. and it might be good for the United Kingdom. What is It is not too late for other parties to become involved unacceptable, however, is that the Scottish Parliament in the process. Unfortunately, however, the Scottish has passed a resolution on the commission’s terms of National party has said that it rejects in principle the reference but we have never done so. That is wrong. invitation to become involved. However, it is surely not There is a United Kingdom, which I, in part, represent too late for it to decide not to ban Scottish civil servants, by representing an English constituency, and it really is to help make a reality of this work, which will require unacceptable that Calman has not addressed our interests. better working relationships. Doing that would be an I illustrate the fact by noting that we had a Secretary of early way of proving better intent on the part of the State for Scotland, from a Scottish constituency, putting Scottish Government. tolls on the Dartford-Thurrock bridge across the River Thames while tolls were being removed from the bridge David Mundell: I thank the Secretary of State for that across the River Clyde. We really have to address the response. Does he agree that the past year has seen the West Lothian question; if we do not, other people will. three Unionist parties working together for the people of Scotland on the future of devolution, putting Scotland’s Mr. Murphy: There are many things for which I am interests first? That is in stark contrast to the national responsible and there are occasional mistakes that I conversation, which is the pursuit of a separatist agenda have made, but I have never introduced tolls on the at public expense. bridge in my hon. Friend’s constituency and I have Does the Secretary of State agree that the First never even visited it. However, I take his remarks as a Minister is out of touch with what the people of Scotland well intended invitation to go and do so. want—a devolution settlement that works, not separation? Andrew Mackinlay: You might not get to the other In the best interests of the Scottish people, will the side! Secretary of State try one more time to persuade the First Minister to put aside petty party politics, join the Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend says that I might not mainstream of the constitutional debate and leave behind get to the other side. I shall certainly get into his the backwater that is his national conversation? constituency, but I may not get out of it. Mr. Murphy: The fact is that there was an open The important point that my hon. Friend makes, invitation to the Scottish National party and the Scottish however, is about the devolution arrangements throughout Government to become involved. I do not know what the United Kingdom. The Calman commission is about the hon. Gentleman thinks, but I reckon that there strengthening the Scottish Parliament, but it is also very comes a point when it is rude to invite people continually clear about strengthening the United Kingdom. I believe to something in which they do not want to participate. in the United Kingdom and think that the United So the next move is for the SNP Government. Even if Kingdom—the four nations of the UK—is the most they are not willing to do the sensible thing and participate successful gathering of nations anywhere in the world. in the steering group, they have to do the right thing and Additional work needs to be done on constitutional not block its progress. Scotland and the United Kingdom renewal throughout the UK, and I look forward to my will never forgive a party that puts its interests before hon. Friend participating in those endeavours. the needs of our country. 291 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 292

Lending (Small Businesses) Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): The Minister invites my hon. Friend the Member for 3. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) to look at the facts. recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of The fact is that every week every Member of this House the Exchequer on measures to encourage banks to lend hears from a small or medium-sized enterprise that is to small businesses in Scotland. [279146] not able to grow or is having its existence threatened because of banks’ failures to lend. That failure to lend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and to support SMEs must be addressed, because today’s (Ann McKechin): Mr. Speaker, since I came to the figures demonstrate that, as unemployment in Scotland House I have much appreciated the friendship and rises at twice the rate of that in the rest of the United support that you have shown, as one of my neighbouring Kingdom, it is having tragic consequences for thousands MPs. I thank you for that. of Scots every month. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular discussions with the Chancellor on a range of Ann McKechin: Last year this Government invested issues. Since the start of the year, the Government have £50 billion in Scottish banks—equivalent to £10,000 for introduced a range of measures to help increase liquidity every man, woman and child. The first thing we had to and ease credit conditions for business. do was to stabilise the banking system to allow our businesses to survive. We appreciate that the credit Jo Swinson: Like other hon. Members, I have huge situation has been difficult. However, Iain McMillan, amounts of correspondence from constituents with viable the director of CBI Scotland, recently said: small businesses who are desperate to get credit but are “In discussion with our members in Scotland, we have found being offered loans only on ridiculous terms—anything that concerns are easing about access to finance, but there are still between 7 and 23 per cent. above base rate. On 15 October, some concerns about the cost of credit.” the Leader of the House said: We are continuing to work very closely with the banks, “One of the main reasons why we have been…buying shares in and we believe that we will see an increase in lending the banks is to ensure that they start lending again to small over the next few months. businesses at reasonable rates. We will do whatever it takes to back up our small business sector.”—[Official Report, 15 October Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and 2008; Vol. 480, c. 790.] Kirkintilloch, East) (Lab): May I add my voice to all the When will the Government start doing “whatever it tributes that have been paid to you, Mr. Speaker? I look takes”? forward to bumping into you in my constituency. Ann McKechin: The hon. Lady should look at the Does my hon. Friend share the view that the scale of facts. The Government created the enterprise finance what has been done to support the banks in the United guarantee specifically for companies that cannot access Kingdom makes a very powerful and persuasive case commercial lending. To date, more than 187 firms in for the protection of Scotland’s interests within the Scotland have benefited from loans of more than United Kingdom? £25 million. In addition, the business support payment Ann McKechin: Yes, absolutely. Were it not for the scheme from the tax office has helped 9,000 Scottish strength of the United Kingdom, Scottish finance by firms defer £167 million. I have been advised by the itself would not have been able to provide the £50 billion Royal Bank of Scotland that in the past year its lending that was essential to maintain the Scottish banks. As I to small and medium-sized enterprises in Scotland has said, that amounts to £10,000 for every man, woman increased by close to £100 million, and that it anticipates and child in Scotland, and it shows the benefit of lending an additional £250 million to the Scottish SME working together in partnership. [Interruption.] sector this year alone. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Mr. Speaker: Order. Could I ask the House for some Is my hon. Friend aware that many company owners quietness? There are people’s livelihoods at stake, and who come to me complain that the terms and conditions they have got to be discussed here in the House. of the enterprise finance guarantee are horrendous, as Local Authority Finance has been said? Furthermore, they are being asked to put up their family homes as a guarantee for the loans, 4. Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): although they have substantial equity in their own What assessment he has made of the effect on the companies. Is it not unacceptable that people should be budgets of local authorities in Scotland of recent asked to put forward their family homes as a guarantee changes to Government funding allocations. [279147] for money that, frankly, is being given to them at the behest of the Government, who saved the banks in the The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): first place? Local authority finance is devolved and as such is a matter for the Scottish Government. Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend raises a legitimate concern, although the taking of securities over domestic Mr. MacNeil: Local councils, including my own, property by commercial lenders has always been a fairly Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, are going to face real cuts standard practice over many years. We are ensuring that through the Westminster cut in Scotland’s budget. I am the banks in which we have a national stake will lend not sure that the right hon. Gentleman will campaign guaranteed amounts—more than £11 billion in the case on this next year if he finds himself in opposition, but of Lloyds TSB and more than £16 billion in the case of will he use his remaining time in government to do the the Royal Bank of Scotland. We continue to press to right thing by protecting Scotland’s front-line services ensure that that money gets through to the businesses and funding? Will he stand up to the Treasury, or are we that need it the most. going to hear more excuses? 293 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 294

Mr. Murphy: As I said at this Dispatch Box just Government will act very quickly on the recommendations 10 minutes ago, the Scottish Government’s budget has made by the repossessions working group and provide doubled over the past decade because of Labour investment; free legal advice in any court proceedings to everyone and, even despite the efficiencies that are to take place, facing repossession. it will increase again next year. The hon. Gentleman talks about choices. In the next few months, Scotland will face a clear choice between a Labour Government PRIME MINISTER and the Conservative party. No one in Scotland believes that that rump over there is going to end up governing The Prime Minister was asked— the United Kingdom. The fact is that the Scottish National party wants to see, and is determined to see, a Engagements Conservative Government returned to Westminster, because that suits its narrow political purposes. Q1. [280103] Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Wednesday 17 June. (Lab): Mr. Speaker, may I join with those who pay The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): Before I list tribute to you in saying that I am extremely grateful for my engagements, this is your last Prime Minister’s questions, your many acts of kindness to me, which began when I Mr. Speaker. The whole House will have a chance to made my maiden speech from the back row of the acknowledge your great contribution to public life in a Opposition Benches? few minutes’ time. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues confirm that allocations to local authorities will still be and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I made by the devolved Executive in Holyrood, and that shall have further such meetings later today. they remain twice the amount that they were 10 years ago, and very much more than when I was president of Dr. Whitehead: Mr. Speaker, may I add my appreciation the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities? of your kindness and generosity towards me and many other hon. Members in your time as Speaker? Mr. Murphy: My right hon. Friend has enormous In view of recent speculation, can the Prime Minister experience from when he was president of COSLA. The assure me that budgets relating to the support of green fact is that, as I have alluded to and as he said, the energy development and combating climate change will Scottish Government’s budget continues to increase. be maintained and enhanced over the next three years? We do, of course, look for additional ways to support Would he reflect on what the United Kingdom’s ability local government, and tomorrow I will be hosting a job to meet its carbon budget commitments would be if summit about how to support Scotland’s long-term such funding were cut by, say, 10 per cent.? unemployed through this recession. Local authorities have an enormous role to play in that in Scotland and The Prime Minister: In the Budget we committed an throughout the United Kingdom. additional £1.4 billion of support for the low-carbon economy. That would not have been possible if we had Housing Market followed the advice of the Opposition to make cuts of 5 per cent. this year. It would be impossible in the future if we went for the plans that have been suggested by the 5. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) shadow Health Secretary to cut departmental expenditure (Lab/Co-op): What assessment he has made of the by 10 per cent. We are for investing in the environment, effect on the housing market in Scotland of the fiscal not for using the money for inheritance tax cuts for the measures introduced in the 2009 Budget. [279148] very few. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): Welcome to (Ann McKechin): The UK Government’s assessment is Prime Minister’s planted questions! [Interruption.] Some that the Budget measures are providing real help now to Labour MPs were a bit confused: when they were told existing and aspirant home owners. about Mr. Ten Percent, they thought it meant his opinion poll ratings. Mark Lazarowicz: Is my hon. Friend aware of the In our exchanges last week, the Prime Minister read alarming findings reported in today’s edition of The Herald out figures for total Government spending after 2011. about the low take-up of schemes to help home owners Will he agree that, using the Treasury’s own forecasts in Scotland? Will she discuss with the Scottish Government for inflation, those figures mean that spending is going ways of ensuring that my constituents and hers can get to be cut in real terms? the same benefits that home owners are getting in other parts of the UK? The Prime Minister: I welcome this debate about public spending. I relish the chance to debate policy for Ann McKechin: I very much share my hon. Friend’s once with the Opposition. The first thing that the right concerns about the report that was issued today and hon. Gentleman has to confirm is that he is cutting reported in The Herald. Some 81 per cent. of agencies spending this year. helping people across Scotland said that they knew that Hon. Members: Answer! conditions imposed in the scheme were much more difficult for the people in the most desperate need and Mr. Speaker: Order. Let the Prime Minister speak. facing repossession. I do not want to see home owners That is the best way—we hear what the Prime Minister in Scotland getting less protection than is already enjoyed has to say. [Interruption.] I am not responsible for his in England. That is why I hope that the Scottish answers. 295 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 296

The Prime Minister: The first thing that the right dogmatically set on a 10 per cent. cut in most departmental hon. Gentleman has to confirm is that he would cut expenditures. Let me read out the real-terms current spending by 5 per cent. this year. That means that vital expenditure: 603 to 629 to 633 to 638 to 642. What is services would be losing money. I welcome the debate that but a rise in real-terms current expenditure? I have that we are having in this country. We are investing to already explained about capital expenditure and what is get ourselves out of the recession; the Opposition would happening after the Olympics, but gross investment, cut, and they would make the recession last longer. That real terms—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman would lead to higher debts and higher deficits that would has not produced one figure yet and I have just given have to be spent for. As for spending beyond 2011, the him the figures in the Red Book—63, 55, 49—and we right hon. Gentleman knows the truth: he wants to will make that up by the asset sales that we have already spend less—10 per cent. less in most Departments—whereas announced in the pre-Budget report. I have to tell him we want to spend more. that current expenditure will continue to rise in cash and real terms. The issue is that the Conservatives will Mr. Cameron: Absolutely no answer to the question. cut current expenditure in real and cash terms. It is For the time that Peter Mandelson allows the Prime exactly what I said—Tory cuts, Labour investment. Minister to go on doing the job, he should at least What is worse is that they would cut expenditure so that answer the question. Every year, at every Budget, the they can help the few with inheritance tax cuts, while we Prime Minister stood there and read out figure after are the party of the many. Let him say that he is figure for total spending and told us it was an increase abandoning inheritance tax cuts. in real terms. Now he stands there, reading out figures for total spending, without admitting that they represent Mr. Cameron: Every commentator and every economist a real-terms cut. The country will conclude that he is has concluded that the Prime Minister is wrong and taking them for fools. Everyone knows that what matters looks increasingly ridiculous. Let us take just one. Last is spending over and above inflation. Let me ask him week, Robert Chote, the director of the Institute for again: will he now accept that his spending plans from Fiscal Studies, said that 2011 mean a real-terms cut? The Chancellor says that they are a cut. Are they? “judging from his performance at Prime Minister’s questions on Wednesday—Gordon Brown needs some help to interpret his The Prime Minister: The first thing we are absolutely own Chancellor’s Budget.” sure of is that, regardless of economic circumstances, Let us take one of the Prime Minister’s former Treasury employment, investment and inflation, the Conservatives Ministers, whom he appointed to work with him in will cut expenditure by 10 per cent. The right hon. Treasury. The right hon. Member for Bolton, West Gentleman said it himself last week—Tory cuts versus (Ruth Kelly) said that Labour investment. Now let me read out the figures for “as the Budget made clear, the only way to clear a huge debt current expenditure. Current expenditure will grow every overhang in the medium term will be to cut billions of pounds year to 2013-14, not just in cash terms but in real terms. from public spending.” Capital expenditure will grow until the year of the Why does the Prime Minister find it so impossible to Olympics. After that, it will be less but asset sales will give a straight answer and be straight with the British make up much of the difference. So we are increasing people?” current expenditure, and increasing capital expenditure up to the Olympics. Unfortunately, the right hon. The Prime Minister: I am the person who is giving the Gentleman’s proposal is to cut expenditure by 10 per House the figures. The right hon. Gentleman has given cent. He had better admit the truth: he is cutting not one figure to back up his proposition. The only expenditure by 10 per cent. figure that we have had is the admission by the shadow Health Secretary that he would cut public expenditure Mr. Cameron: It sounds more and more desperate. in vital Departments by 10 per cent. What we will not Whichever way we look at the figures, the Government be doing is cutting expenditure by 10 per cent. plan to cut spending. Let us consider capital and current spending. Capital spending will go from £44 billion in Let me tell the Leader of the Opposition what the 2009-10 to £22 billion in 2013. That is a massive cut. real-terms rise in current expenditure is, and perhaps at Now let us look at current spending. We must exclude some point he will listen: 603 to 629 to 633 to 638 debt interest and paying for unemployment—what the to 642. These are rises in expenditure after inflation has Prime Minister used to call the bills of social failure. been taken into account. Once again, he is trying to When we do that, we see that current spending is also hide the fact that he has got 10 per cent. cuts. His is the being cut. Capital spending—cut; current spending—cut. party of cuts; we are the party of investment. Because Those are Labour cuts. Let me ask the Prime Minister he wants to use the cuts to pay for inheritance tax, let us again—the question will not go away until he answers remember once again: the Conservatives are the party it. Will he admit—I would not listen to the Secretary of of the few and we are the party of the many. State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Woodward); he was pretty useless Mr. Cameron: The right hon. Gentleman is just sinking when he worked for us and he is still pretty useless. The and sinking. He thinks that everyone is so stupid that question will not go away. Will the Prime Minister they will not notice that once we take out debt interest accept that his spending plans from 2011 mean a real- and unemployment benefit, the Departments of all terms cut? those Ministers on the Treasury Bench will be cut, cut, cut. That is the truth. Why does the Prime Minister not The Prime Minister: What the right hon. Gentleman just stand back for a moment and ask why he is so is saying to us—he had better listen to the debate distrusted? It is not actually the recession: there is a because it will go on for many months—is that, regardless recession all over Europe; and yet no other European of growth, employment, interest rates or inflation, he is leader—[Interruption.] 297 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 298

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cameron: Why does the Prime Minister not understand that character and policy come together in Mr. Cameron: The reason the right hon. Gentleman the vital question of telling the truth that public spending is in the hole that he is in is because he is not straight will be cut, according to his own plans? Everyone will with people. [Interruption.] have seen today that the Prime Minister has drawn one of his precious dividing lines between himself and reality. Mr. Speaker: Order. We must allow the Leader of the That is what we have seen. People know that they have a Opposition to be heard. [Interruption.] Order. Allow Prime Minister whom they never elected, a Prime Minister the right hon. Gentleman to speak. [Interruption.] Order. who cannot be straight with people and a Prime Minister I do not want a Minister pushing his luck, so I ask the who will not even give 10 per cent. of the truth. right hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) to behave himself. The Prime Minister: The leader of the Conservative party said: Mr. Cameron: Labour Members shout for half an “We’ve made it clear that a Conservative government would hour on a Wednesday and spend the rest of the week spend less than Labour.” trying to get rid of the Prime Minister. His problem is So it is absolutely clear that the Conservatives would be that he is not straight with people. He was not straight spending less every time. They would be cutting spending over the cancelled election; he was not straight over the on vital services, and people should not forget that. He 10p tax; he was not straight over flying to Iraq during wants to read out quotes from this person or that the Tory conference; he was not straight over Damian person, but why does he not face up to the policy issue? McBride; he was not straight about who he wanted as We are spending 5.5 per cent. more on the health service his Chancellor; and now he will not be straight with this year, and 4 per cent. more on education. We are people about the level of Government spending. Will building more schools, employing more nurses, building everyone not conclude that if you cannot be straight up the health service and making the policing in our with people, you are simply not worthy to be our Prime community work. At every point, the Conservatives Minister? would be cutting these vital services. They should go back to their constituencies and explain how many Mr. Speaker: Order. Even though it is my last day, the police, nurses, doctors and teachers they would cut Leader of the Opposition knows that the term “you” is under policies that are in the interest not of the many not something that I approve of, and I think that the but, in their case, only of the few. candidates at all these hustings will be saying that they Several hon. Members rose— do not approve of it either. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am going to call you, The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is Mr. McGrady, but you will be brief, won’t you? learning all the time. At last he has a European policy, and he now admits that there is a European recession. Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): Thank As far as his last comments are concerned, is it not you, Mr. Speaker. I will be brief, but I want to thank remarkable that he descends back into personalities? you for your personal kindness to me and my party over He cannot deal with a policy debate. I have said that we your many years in the Chair and outside this Chamber. are taking action to deal with the recession, and that My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be means that more people will be in work, that more aware that devolution to Northern Ireland has not been businesses will be saved and that more help will be given completed owing to the absence of the devolution of to mortgage holders. We are spending money to take policing and justice. This issue has now become a people out of recession; he would cut the money now. political football between the two parties in power, and There would be more unemployment, more debt and the situation has been exacerbated by the recent European more deficit. The Conservative party has to face up to elections. Will he take a personal new initiative to its responsibility. The Conservatives are calling for public complete that all-important stage of devolution, which spending cuts at a time when every country in Europe is the prerogative of the whole community in Northern and the rest of the world knows that we have to inject Ireland? more money into the economy. The Prime Minister: I think that the benefits to As for the future, everybody also knows—this is Northern Ireland of the devolution of policing and where the serious debate lies—that what can happen justice will be very considerable indeed. I realise that depends on growth and what happens to inflation, there are very delicate issues that have to be dealt with, employment and interest rates. There is good evidence and that there are conversations to be had, but I recognise that the proposals that we have put forward are working, that progress has been made with the commitment of whereas the proposals that the Conservatives have put the major parties to devolution in principle. Talks are forward would not work. As for the future of public now taking place that I hope will yield results, and I expenditure, let us just be clear: I have read out figures hope it will not be long before we complete the process showing that there are not only cash rises in all our of the devolution of policing and justice under terms current expenditure in each year, but also real-terms that will give security to every community in Northern rises. The Leader of the Opposition has given us no Ireland. figure, except the figure of his Health Secretary, which is a 10 per cent. cut in public expenditure. The public Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): Does the will remember one thing about the last week: 10 per Prime Minister agree with the comments made by his cent. cuts in public expenditure under the Tories; investment Chancellor this morning when he blamed the banks’ under Labour. They are the party of the few; we are the boardrooms for the recession but refused fundamentally party of the many. to change the way we regulate them? 299 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 300

The Prime Minister: We are fundamentally changing Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Will the Prime the way we regulate our banks. We are banning them Minister take this opportunity to condemn the appalling from giving bonuses at the moment where we have racist attacks on Romanian families in Belfast? taken over the banks. We are changing the structure of the boards by the way we are dealing with the problems The Prime Minister: Yes indeed, and I hope that the that have been created in this recession, and we are authorities will be able to take all the necessary action introducing new financial services legislation in the next to protect those families. year to change the structure of regulation. In every area in which abuse has been found, we are taking action to Q3. [280105] Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): Will deal with it. I hope that, when the legislation comes the Prime Minister confirm that the Department for before the House of Commons, the right hon. Gentleman Transport has been compiling dossiers on opponents of will support it, because that is the right thing to do. the third runway at Heathrow and handing them over When people make mistakes, that has to be dealt with, to the police? Will he find out whether there is one on and we are dealing with the mistakes that have been me and one on his hon. Friend the Member for Hayes made in the City. and Harlington (John McDonnell)?

Mr. Clegg: I still think that the Prime Minister is The Prime Minister: I know nothing about this— trying to have it both ways. He cannot just blame the [Interruption.] Any allegation that the hon. Gentleman bankers but not change the basic way we control them. makes will of course be investigated, but it is not He is just passing the buck. I will tell him who is to something that has been drawn to my attention. As far blame for this recession: a Government who did not as the Heathrow expansion is concerned, it is a contentious listen to warnings, who let the bankers get away with issue but the House has voted on the matter. blue murder and who, even now, refuse to separate ordinary high street banking from casino investment Q4. [280106] Mr. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): banking. Can he not see that if he just keeps passing the My right hon. Friend will know that the Lancashire buck, the only certainty is that this kind of crisis will police constabulary is the top-performing police force happen all over again? in the country. Burglary is at a 27-year low and vehicle The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is crime at a 20-year low. The number of police officers, speaking as though high street banks and investment police community support officers, special constables banks did not fail. The truth is that both failed, and we and other staff has increased by 1,400—30 per cent. have to deal with that. The solution is to have better since 1997. Will my right hon. Friend tell me what regulation and better supervision. It is actually about impact a 10 per cent. cut in policing will have on staff cross-border supervision at a global level as well. It is and crime in Lancashire? about bringing in those countries that have been outside the scope of supervision and regulation. That is what The Prime Minister: It could involve the loss of about the G20 was about: to bring them all into the regulatory 15,000 police. Those who advocate 10 per cent. cuts in and supervisory net. To be honest, I think the right hon. the Home Office have to face up to the consequences, as Gentleman actually supports what we are doing but it will mean fewer policemen on the beat, less cannot bear to say so. neighbourhood policing and less protection against crime. [Interruption.] I notice that Conservative Members are Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is not worried about a 10 per cent. cut in the police; I my right hon. Friend aware that, despite all the promises, think they would hear from their constituents if such a the Lloyds group of banks is planning to decimate jobs cut were ever to happen. in Yorkshire and take them down south to Peterborough? Will he urgently talk to the management of the Lloyds Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): Has the group and point out that we are major shareholders in Prime Minister any concern about the expressed intention that bank and expect better standards? of the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland to axe the full-time police reserve in Northern The Prime Minister: I am very happy to talk to Ireland? Does he recognise that there is a heightened Lloyds, which made promises at the time it took over level of dissident activity and that the Chief Constable HBOS about what it would do to safeguard the jobs of is leaving his job, so is this not a decision that should be its employees. We will look at the issue in that context; left to the new Chief Constable? any jobs lost are to be regretted and we will do everything we can. The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman will Q2. [280104] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) recognise that we have committed additional resources (LD): The Prime Minister will have satisfied virtually to deal with the problems posed by the dissident groups nobody with his private inquiry into the war in Iraq. in Northern Ireland. I spoke to the former chief of He does, however, have the opportunity to satisfy one police in Northern Ireland at exactly the time of the family—the Al-Sarraj family. Mr. Al-Sarraj, who is incidents and we promised him that the resources would detained in Camp Cropper in Baghdad, is the husband be there to deal with the problems arising from the of my constituent, Shereen Nasser. Will the right hon. actions of those dissident groups. I assure the hon. Gentleman talk to the US authorities to try to secure a Gentleman that the security of the people of Northern release date for Mr. Al-Sarraj? Ireland will not be put at risk in any way.

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman has raised Q5. [280107] Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): the case with me; I shall look further at what he says Mr. Speaker, may I thank you for your kindness over and write to him. the years and wish you well? 301 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 302

Knives, age-related games and alcohol were all bought The Prime Minister: I have not. online recently by a 16-year-old acting for Greenwich trading standards without any checks being made. They Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I should like to were bought from Debenhams, Marks and Spencer, ask the Prime Minister about a modest constitutional Argos and other stores, even though his card was registered innovation. Will he invite the House of Commons to with his real date of birth and address. Will my right amend its Standing Orders to allow senior Ministers in hon. Friend look to extend the provisions in the Gambling the House of Lords to come to this Dispatch Box to Act 2005 to restrict and have simple checks on age so defend their stewardship of their Departments, and to that our young people cannot get easy access to knives pilot legislation of which they are the principal architects? and other age-restricted goods, in accordance with the Even the most senior junior Minister will on occasion recommendations of the children’s charities digital be nothing more than a superior parrot unless that manifesto on internet safety? change is made.

The Prime Minister: I know about the document to The Prime Minister: We have a strong team of Ministers which my hon. Friend refers. She may be aware that in the House of Commons, who are perfectly able to yesterday we published the “Digital Britain” document answer questions and conduct debates in the House of describing the steps that the Government are taking to Commons. If my hon. Friend has proposals for ensure the online safety of children, and the ways in constitutional innovation, perhaps he could put them to which the Government will continue to support further the Committee chaired by my hon. Friend the Member action by the industry against such practices. We have for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). also set up the UK Council on Child Internet Safety, which, as she probably knows, is examining these issues. Q8. [280110] Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Calman (LD): This is national elder abuse week. According to commission reported this week that the Scottish Parliament the Government’s own figures, 5,980 older people are should have additional limited powers. The First Minister victims of abuse every week in this country. Will the has offered to test that proposal, together with the Prime Minister consider the need for legislation? The proposal for independence, in a referendum. Does the overwhelming majority of organisations responding to Prime Minister agree that the people should have their a Government consultation said that it was necessary, say? not least at a time when 5,900 people every week are unprotected from assaults and those who commit the The Prime Minister: I am sorry that the Scottish assaults go unpunished. Is it not time for legislation, National party is not supporting the Calman and will the Prime Minister meet me to discuss the recommendations. They give a new basis on which the matter? Union can move forward, providing a measure of devolution that will allow the Union to be safeguarded The Prime Minister: Any abuse of the elderly is for the future. The difference between us and the Scottish completely unacceptable. I hope that the criminal law National party lies in the fact that the SNP wants will protect them, and that the regulatory framework complete independence, although all the evidence suggests will be such that we can give the protection that is that the people of Scotland do not. necessary. We will continue to keep that regulatory framework under review. In a week when the amount of Q6. [280108] Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) abuse of the elderly is being noted, I think it right to say (Lab): May I thank you personally for your kindness, that no citizen should be engaged in anything that puts Mr. Speaker? the dignity and security of elderly people in our country On policy, let me say to my right hon. Friend that my at risk. constituents are nervously awaiting the outcome of the Learning and Skills Council’s review of the Building Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) Colleges for the Future programme? We need that money. (Lab): I wonder whether my right hon. Friend could Will he give some reassurance that when the review explain a phrase that I heard recently: “Play the ball takes place our Government will make an immediate and not the man.” Perhaps as an ex-rugby player he decision, and that he will take account of our commitment could explain both its meaning and its application to to urban regeneration in Burslem and to the university Prime Minister’s questions. quarter so that the full amounts can be provided for the campuses in Cauldon and on the Burslem site? The Prime Minister: It means that on only a few The Prime Minister: In the Budget, we announced an occasions in the past year has the Leader of the Opposition extra £300 million of capital spending on further education managed to raise questions about policy. We welcome colleges to meet some of the demand that has arisen as the debate about policy which will be held in the country a result of the number of colleges that wish to expand over the next few months, when we will show that we and build new facilities on their campuses. We are will safeguard the health, education and public services looking at all the projects. The LSC has talked to the of this country against 10 per cent. cuts by the Conservative principals of all colleges this month, and we hope to party. announce the projects that will proceed to their next stages as soon as possible. Q9. [280111] Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): Will the Prime Minister join me in commending Q7. [280109] Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Will the work of the Chernobyl children’s charities, which the Prime Minister tell the House whether the bring thousands of children over from Belarus every Government have received any informal briefings from year for recuperative holidays? Will he also explain why Damian McBride? the Home Office has decided not to give free visas to the 303 Oral Answers17 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 304

Chernobyl children from the north of Ukraine, who are three of the five biggest energy users, and they are very suffering worse conditions than those from Belarus, concerned about increasing energy costs. What steps are and will he meet me and a delegation of the charities to my right hon. Friend’s Government taking to protect discuss this important issue? them against excessive profits, which has happened before in respect of the energy companies? The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: Everybody is concerned about has raised this matter on many occasions and has taken the 50 per cent. rise in oil prices that we have seen over a deep interest in it. I also know that he has held an the last few weeks. The oil price was $150, then it went Adjournment debate on it. He is asking about the down to $30, and it has now gone up to $70. That Home Office and what it can do to help. I suggest that means that it is very difficult for energy companies in he ask for a meeting with the Home Secretary, and I am this country, but also very difficult for consumers, and sure the Home Secretary will be happy to meet his very difficult when we consider future gas and electricity delegation. bills. I believe that the world has got to look at what it can do to make sure that supply of and demand for oil Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): As is far more in balance, so that we can keep oil prices my right hon. Friend may know, I have in my constituency under control. 305 17 JUNE 2009 306

Hebrides Missile Range Programming of Bills (Suspension) Application for emergency debate (Standing Order Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order No. 24) No. 23)

12.31 pm 12.34 pm Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I rise to seek leave to move that the House discuss a beg to move, specific and important matter that should be given urgent consideration: the proposed movement of the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the missile testing facilities from Hebrides range in my suspension or restriction of programming of Bills when the House of Commons is scheduled to meet for fewer than a constituency, with the loss of 120 jobs—and unofficial prescribed number of days in any specified period; and for estimates from Highlands and Islands Enterprise effectively connected purposes. double that. South Uist, North Uist and Benbecula The only possible justification for guillotining debate cannot cope with that level of cuts. In a major city such and preventing thorough scrutiny of legislation by this as Glasgow, that would be the equivalent of 6,000 to House is a shortage of parliamentary time. The Government 7,000 jobs gone at the stroke of a pen. Bad as that may have decided that Parliament will sit for fewer days this be in a city, for an island community it is infinitely year than in any year since 1945, but they are still using worse; it means depopulation to the next city or employment powers, once reserved for exceptional cases, to restrict opportunities that are eight hours away by ferry and the time available for debate on every Bill. As a result, vehicular transport. large swathes of legislation leave this place without ever The people of North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula having been scrutinised at all. My Bill will mean that in have taken the Hebrides missile range into their community future no Government could restrict the time available and accepted and worked with its needs and demands. for debate on Bills if Parliament is scheduled to sit for An entire community has shaped itself to fulfil its fewer days than the average of recent years, for example. needs: a service and sacrifice that entailed forgoing That will set Parliament free to do what it is supposed many opportunities, at great opportunity cost to the to do: scrutinise legislation thoroughly and hold the community. The Ministry of Defence, through QinetiQ, Government to account. cannot walk away leaving chaos and a vacuum behind. I regularly invite everyone on the electoral register in There is a social and economic responsibility here. a cluster of streets in my constituency to visit Parliament, Over and above the social and economic responsibility, and they come in their hundreds. One question that however, the Hebrides range is simply the best for they often ask is, “Isn’t Parliament just a talking shop purpose in missile testing. No other range compares to and a waste of time?”. They are right that it is a talking the Hebrides range; it is so large that the curvature of shop—the word “Parliament” comes from the French the earth becomes a factor. This difficulty is mitigated word “parler”, which means “to talk”; that is what we by the existence of St. Kilda as a monitoring post do—but they are wrong to say that it is a waste of time. almost in the middle of the range. There is no equivalent There are only two ways to govern a country. One is in the UK—or in Europe—to Hebrides range. when the Government say, “These are the laws, obey Hebrides range is important to the defence of the them. These are the taxes, pay them. You have got no realm, and also for the defence of Europe, as many say in the matter.” The second way, which we have other countries use the range for testing. It must not be developed in this place over 1,000 years, is by having a decimated; it must not be smashed; it must not be system whereby no law may be introduced and no tax ruined at the stroke of a pen. For the islands and also imposed until it has been discussed and debated in this for defence, Hebrides range is too important. Its closure House and a majority of the representatives of the was considered 15 years ago under a previous Government British people have given it their assent. That is what and rightly rejected for many valid reasons. This proposal this place is for: to debate and discuss exhaustively needs full parliamentary scrutiny in Committee and on whether each Bill is right in principle and whether it will the Floor of the House. I put this to you, Mr. Speaker, work in practice, in the light of all the submissions we for your consideration. receive from our constituents and others affected by it. That process takes time, so the idea of curtailing Mr. Speaker: I have listened carefully to what the debate has always been alien to this House; it is an alien hon. Member has said, and I have to give my decision thing, given an alien name—the guillotine—that was without stating any reasons. I am afraid that I do not introduced when Parliament accepted the need, in extremis, consider the matter he raises to be appropriate for to put a time limit on debate. The guillotine has since discussion under Standing Order No. 24. I cannot therefore been invoked very sparingly; the previous Conservative submit the application to the House. Government guillotined only between four and five Bills every year. This Government decided early on that all Bills should be guillotined, and that was renamed “programming” in new Labour newspeak. Programming was supposed to ensure that every Bill would receive full consideration, but that has not happened. All too many Bills leave this House with sizeable chunks never debated in Committee and with grotesquely inadequate consideration by the whole House on Report. In the case of three quarters of Bills last year, this Chamber was not allowed to debate all the groups of 307 Programming of Bills (Suspension)17 JUNE 2009 Programming of Bills (Suspension) 308

[Mr. Peter Lilley] legislation through by making concessions to critics on its own side, by winning the support of minor parties or amendments selected for debate by the Speaker. For by relying on the Opposition. On issues such as 42 days, example, the Government deliberately restricted the it had to back down ultimately, as it did recently on the time for debate on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Gurkhas. It may also have to back down on the Post Bill so that dozens of new clauses were not debated; on Office, just as John Major’s Cabinet did. the Counter-Terrorism Bill Members had only three One reason MPs are more independent nowadays is hours to discuss 16 new clauses and 60 amendments that we are in continual dialogue with our constituents covering crucial issues such as post-charge questioning in ways that did not happen in the past. They write to and control orders; and on the Climate Change Bill we us, question us and e-mail back to us. They will not be were not allowed to debate the crucial amendment fobbed off with the official party brief and so we are increasing the carbon reduction target from 60 to 80 per forced to look at controversial issues in depth. On cent., which doubled the Bill’s cost and which many occasion, in trying to convince our electors that our supporters felt did not go far enough. party’s line is correct, we end up convincing ourselves Moreover, the time saved on debating primary legislation that it needs to change. I believe that that is a good has not been used to scrutinise secondary legislation, thing. It means that debate matters, scrutiny matters which increasingly accounts for the substance of our and Parliament matters. But that requires time. I remember laws. The proportion of statutory instruments requiring a former Labour Chief Whip, the late Lord Cocks, the affirmative procedure considered by the House has telling me during a late-night sitting, “Peter, time is the fallen from one third in the last three years of the Major only weapon the Opposition have. We can’t win the Government to just 6 per cent. now and, of the thousands votes, but given time we can win the argument. Given of statutory instruments subject to the negative procedure, time, we can drum those arguments in until your Ministers the number put to the vote in the Chamber declined lose confidence in their own policies, you lose confidence from one in 200 under the previous Government—that in them and the public lose confidence in the lot of figure is bad enough—to only one in 1,000 now. you.” My Bill will give future Oppositions that time, so In the present climate, people assume that that proves I know that I can count on the support of all those that Members of Parliament are lazy as well as greedy. I Labour Members who recognise that they may be sitting shall say nothing of greed, other than that many hon. on these Benches before too long. Members backed my last ten-minute Bill, even though it By contrast, some of my right hon. Friends on the sought to cut MPs’ pay whenever we give away powers Front Bench may have their doubts. Scrutiny is to Europe or the courts. Far from being lazy, most MPs uncomfortable. The first instinct of every Whip is to are eager to scrutinise legislation, to hold Ministers to curtail it if they cannot prevent it entirely. But scrutiny account and to debate the Opposition’s policies too—we is good for good government. Governments with good would willingly do so for longer. It is Ministers, not policies and confidence in those policies—and with the Back Benchers, who prefer to send Parliament away for humility to respond positively to constructive criticism as long as possible, because all Governments, not just of them—have nothing to fear and much to gain from this one, find it is disagreeable to be scrutinised, criticised full and thorough scrutiny in this place. I ask leave to and held to account. There is a myth, which has been bring in this Bill and set Parliament free to do its job. given a new lease of life by the recent crisis of confidence Question put and agreed to. in Parliament, that debates no longer matter and that Ordered, MPs are Lobby fodder controlled by ever more powerful Whips. Commentators hark back to the “golden age”, That Mr. Peter Lilley, Anne Main, Sir Patrick Cormack, when MPs were supposedly more independent-minded, Mr. Christopher Chope, Philip Davies, Mark Fisher, Whips had less power and the Government could get Mr. John Gummer, Dr. Evan Harris, Mr. Elfyn Llwyd, legislation through only by genuinely convincing their Mr. Chris Mullin and Mr. Charles Walker present the own supporters or by winning over some Opposition Bill. MPs. Mr. Peter Lilley accordingly presented the Bill. In fact, Professor Cowley’s evidence to the Modernisation Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Committee demonstrates that things have been moving Friday 3 July and to be printed (Bill 113). in exactly the opposite direction. When Lord Hailsham described the British constitution as an elective dictatorship, Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): there was a lot of truth in his description. Between 1945 On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I attempted to give and 1970, there was not a single Government defeat in you notice of this point, which is to do with how we the House of Commons as a result of Back-Bench deal with matters relating to the opinions, publicly or dissent. There were two whole Sessions in the 1950s privately expressed, of the heir to the throne. You will during which not a single Government Member defied be aware that “Erskine May” prevents us from assuming their Whip, but since then Back Benchers have become that members of the royal family have a private opinion, increasingly independent minded in each successive although the rule that prevents us from debating such Parliament. matters is, apparently, “not strictly applied in cases where one” More than 4,300 votes were cast against the Conservative Whip during Margaret Thatcher’s Government, and no member of the royal family fewer than 6,500 votes cast against the Labour Whip “has made a public statement on a matter of current interest so under this Government. Despite new Labour’s passion long as comment is made in appropriate terms.” for discipline and its big majorities, it has faced the When a private statement is made that seeks to lobby largest rebellions this House has seen since the corn either the Executive or a third party, it is not clear what laws. Time and again, Labour has only been able to get we can do as Members Parliament to engage with the 309 Programming of Bills (Suspension) 17 JUNE 2009 310 issue, even when it is current in the media—on the Speaker’s Statement airwaves and in the papers—or what we can do when we are asked by constituents to comment on the issue or to 12.45 pm raise it in Parliament. What advice can you give Members of Parliament who wish to ensure that there is full Mr. Speaker: One of the pleasant side effects of a transparency on matters of public policy or private Speaker moving on is that his signature becomes a matters affecting citizens or subjects of this country? Is collectors’ item. I can inform the House that in the past this the only place where the opinions of the Prince of few weeks I have signed several hundred bottles of Wales, for example, cannot be debated? Speaker Martin’s malt. The Chancellor will be pleased to know that some bottles are fetching as much as Mr. Speaker: It is the practice of the House that the £150 on eBay. I wanted to help the Chancellor in personal conduct of a member of the royal family stimulating the economy, but, as a lifelong teetotaller, I cannot be discussed except in debate on a substantive am surprised that I could do so in such a way. motion drawn up for that purpose. When any member I pay tribute to my staff in Speaker’s House: Angus of the royal family engages in public debate, it is of Sinclair, the Speaker’s Secretary; Peter Barratt, the Assistant course in order for any views expressed to be discussed, Secretary; Ian Davis, my Trainbearer; Chris Michael, provided that that does not extend to personal criticism. the Diary Secretary; Eve Griffith-Okai; Katherine I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman. McCarthy and Abdulaye Balogun. In Speaker’s House, Mrs. Gloria Hawkes, Housekeeper, has always been there for us; a good friend. No Speaker could ask for a better or more dedicated staff. My three Deputies, Sir Alan Haselhurst, Sylvia Heal and Sir Michael Lord, have shown me first-class support, both inside and outside the House, where their expertise is plain to see. I also thank the members of the Chairmen’s Panel for their dedication in working night and day. I must say thank you to the work force in the Palace of Westminster. It is plain for Members to see the Police, Security Officers and Badge Messengers going about their duties and their courtesy is renowned. We have a Library that is highly regarded by every democracy, and especially in the Commonwealth. It has adapted so well to our electronic age. The Speaker’s Chaplain, Canon Robert Wright, has given me invaluable spiritual guidance. The Legal Services Office under Speaker’s Counsel does much that is unsung. The Clerks—men and women who are excellent procedural experts—give advice at our side every day we are in Session. They go out of their way to provide help and research. Their advice to emerging democracies in eastern Europe and beyond is invaluable and they are held in the highest regard. Hansard’s powers of concentration and accuracy are first class, and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and Inter-Parliamentary Union do so much for us. I must mention those men and women who run our catering outlets and those associated with the Department of Facilities who are behind the scenes cleaning, maintaining and quietly working hard in our support, so often without much recognition. And the same goes for those in the Fees Office—the Department of Resources, as it is now called. Some of these men and women we do not often see or do not know by name. I have taken every opportunity to ask them to Speaker’s House when I can, to thank them for their hard work on your behalf. As testimony to their dedication, I recall that on 7 July 2005, many walked home or walked to work when their transport had stopped, and they made sure that they were at their work the next day. In the snowstorm that stopped London this year, many made that huge effort to walk in and do their work, and they are a credit to this House. When I found out that the Palace of Westminster with its Pugin craftsmanship did not have apprentices, I proposed an apprenticeship scheme. All the trades of 311 Speaker’s Statement17 JUNE 2009 Speaker’s Statement 312

[Mr. Speaker] evidence and produced a report that was blunt and straightforward, and whose 18 separate recommendations the House—the carpenters, electricians, plumbers, were presented to the House on the 3 July 2008. upholsterers and chefs—embarked on a work experience In a letter to me on 30 June last year, Sir Christopher and apprenticeship scheme that has allowed local boys Kelly, Chairman of the Committee on Standards in and girls to be trained to a very high skill, making them Public Life, commented that the Committee was employable here in the House or outside in all parts of London. By the summer break, some of the apprentices “pleased to see the proposals for a more robust system of audit will be receiving their final trades certificates. I am and assurance, based for the most part on claims backed by receipts, and by the implied acceptance of complete transparency grateful to all those who are giving so many young about what is claimed. Taken together, these seem to us to be people a good start in life. significant steps towards the establishment of the robust regime When you charged me with the responsibility of that MPs and the taxpayer have the right to expect”. caring for Speaker’s House, my wife Mary and I resolved The response of the House was deeply disappointing. to make this place of world heritage also a place of Half of all Members did not attend to vote, and more welcome. So many fellow Members and Members of than half of those who did vote rejected the proposals. I the other place honoured us with their presence. It was regretted that then: I deeply regret it now, and I expect a pleasure to receive leaders and Speakers from democracies that many Members of the House now share that throughout the world over the past eight years. I will regret. leave Speaker’s House in the knowledge that I have opened the House to people from so many charities Of course, the recommendations would not have who have either wanted to promote their work or celebrate solved every difficulty, but they would have ended many a special anniversary or occasion. It was always a joy to practices for which Members have been attacked in receive regular visits from the little children from LATCH, recent weeks. the leukaemia charity of Wales. Some proposals have been seized on by party leaders We welcomed many voluntary, professional and veterans who have come up with their own solutions but, by associations, including the Royal College of Midwives. and large, those solutions were in my Committee’s We also welcomed world war two veterans—some from 18 recommendations. They would have stopped claims HMS Speaker—and representatives of Marie Curie, for furniture and household goods, ended outer-London which is a hospice in my constituency, the homeless Members claiming for the cost of second homes, introduced charities, and the Huntington’s Disease Association. a robust new system of internal and—crucially—external audit, and reduced the receipt level to zero. As a man of Christian faith, I have been able to welcome other faith groups and was so pleased to I wish with all my heart that those recommendations initiate the annual Jewish celebration of Hanukkah had won the confidence of the House last July. And I taking place in Speaker’s House, bringing members of wish that party leaders would have shown then some of staff, Members of the House and others of this ancient the leadership that they have shown now. faith together. Tradition has it that such votes are not whipped, but I want to mention a few recent issues that have this does not remove the responsibility of leaders to troubled me greatly. speak up for common sense and for the obvious wishes The police search of the office of the hon. Member of the country in seeking necessary reform. We should for Ashford (Damian Green) led to my statement of have done that last year. 3 December last year, which I affirm today. I am pleased As to the legal challenges made to the Freedom of that the Government Chief Whip has assured me that Information Act, as Speaker I could see that some an all-party inquiry of eight senior Members, with a Members wanted complete and total transparency, while member of the Opposition in the Chair and with no others strongly argued that the information should only Government majority, will inquire into this matter, be to a certain degree. The representations to me came establish the truth of those events in full transparency, from every party, and from every level of those parties. and allow all the lessons to be learned. I will give evidence to any depth required by the House. I listened to these representations but I was also aware that, in an important area of law such as this, the Let me turn to Members’ expenses and allowances. decision of a very new Information Tribunal to publish This subject has caused understandable loss of public the details of 14 Members of Parliament had to be trust and confidence in us all. In my 30 years in this tested in a higher court, because its decision would House, I have seen nothing like it. affect all 646 Members. What we now know is that Let me say again to the men and women of this transparency will be the House’s best safeguard. country that I am sorry. On 4 May 1979, the people of Glasgow, Springburn— But also let me remind this House that it passed up now Glasgow, North-East—entrusted me with the greatest an opportunity to deal with this emotive issue less than honour of my life when I was returned as their Member a year ago. of Parliament. Glasgow is the place where I served my In January 2008, I was tasked by the House with apprenticeship as a young metal worker, and where I reviewing Members’ allowances. I pay tribute to my joined the trade union, of which I am still proud to be a colleagues—the hon. Member for Middlesbrough member. It is also where I married my wife, Mary, and (Sir Stuart Bell), the right hon. Member for Penrith and where we raised our family. My thoughts go back to the The Border (David Maclean) and the hon. Member for fact that every member of my family, including my son North Devon (Nick Harvey)—on the Members Estimate Paul and daughter Mary, have been cared for so well at Committee, who worked very hard to produce detailed Stobhill hospital, which, over the years, I have been able and thorough proposals. They took a wide range of to campaign for on the Floor of this House. 313 Speaker’s Statement17 JUNE 2009 Speaker’s Statement 314

Of the many issues affecting my constituency, housing Though this Parliament is at its lowest ebb, I can has been a fundamental problem, so it has been exciting testify to the goodness of the vast majority of members and rewarding to have been able to engage in the early of this House. I have had the privilege, often late at years of the new community-based housing associations. night, during Adjournment debates to witness Members In 30 years, their growing strength has brought about from every party, including minority parties, raising the dignity and comfort for many men, women and children problem of one sole constituent who is perhaps experiencing who would otherwise have faced damp and inadequate a health or social security problem. Those Members dwellings. Furthermore, they have spurred the growth were using their right to question Government Ministers. of excellent local institutions, community halls and Most strikingly, when working miners suffered the cruel sheltered housing for our elderly. effects of industrial diseases, there was no shortage of As the House will appreciate, I took pride, throughout Members to make demands of Government Ministers, my time as a Back Bencher and as Speaker, in holding asking them to give those good, hard-working people surgeries and taking up matters that were important to compensation. individual organisations, and all the people of my Members regularly acted as a group, showing tenacity constituency. I must record and give thanks for the when campaigning for those whom they represent, and support of my agent, Councillor Gerry Leonard, my those who have been denied human rights in countries constituency assistant, Mrs. Georgie Rainey, and my abroad. Let us not forget that it was this Parliament that lifelong friend, Mr. Barry Reamsbottom, who helps me achieved what seemed impossible: all the political parties here in London. They have always shown unfailing of Northern Ireland took huge risks in setting aside support in the constituency, and I am honoured to have their long-held differences, and in doing so they worked worked with them. with all the political parties in this House, achieving a The constituency will always be home in every sense peace that has brought harmony to Northern Ireland. It for me. There can be no greater honour than bringing to was a proud moment for me when I welcomed the Irish this House the richness of that experience, the privilege Taoiseach on behalf of this House, and his welcome of representing friends and neighbours, and the values was that given to a friend. That was this Parliament at of family and community that I hold dear. To all those its very best. good people of Glasgow, North-East, and Springburn There are those who will remind us of our unworthy before it, let me say this: I will forever be in your debt for moments, but when I am asked, I will tell of the giving me your friendship, support and trust. goodness that exists in this House. I will leave this House with fond and moving memories. One of those I have enjoyed every day of coming to this House. It memories is of meeting a Holocaust survivor called was a great honour to be invited by Speaker Weatherill Rosa. She came to this country in 1946 after she had to be on his panel. That took me to the chairmanship of endured the horrors of Auschwitz and a long forced the Scottish Grand Committee, travelling the length march back to Germany. She raised her family in Britain, and breadth of Scotland bringing Parliament to the and she would say about this Parliament, “That building people. I then became Chairman of the Administration gave me my freedom.” Rosa held this House in high Committee, and then Deputy Speaker. regard for perfectly justifiable reasons. The House must In 2000, you entrusted me with the great office of work tirelessly to restore the high esteem that she saw in Speaker. I have been so happy to serve you, and to it. Knowing you all personally, I know that you will do represent the House at home and abroad. I was honoured that, so that the people of the United Kingdom will to be the first Speaker to pay an official visit to Poland, have, once again, a parliamentary democracy that they a country that I always hoped and prayed would be free can regard as the best in the world. of communism one day. Because of my political neutrality In the work ahead, you will be criticised strongly, as a Speaker, I must withdraw from the natural comradeship particularly for this sad period. When scorned, take as of this place and be a little isolated in Speaker’s House. comfort the words that Robert Burns wrote to those I raise that point because I would like to thank my wife whom he described as “The Rigidly Righteous”: Mary for coming to London each week, when her natural instinct was to remain in her beloved Glasgow. “Then gently scan your brother man, Without intruding in my business, she has always been Still gentler sister woman; there in support, and she has done so much to make Tho’ they may go a little wrong, Speaker’s House a place of welcome, planning and To step aside is human.” working on official and unofficial events. [Applause.] 315 17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 316

Tribute to Mr. Speaker Ask people in north Glasgow who it was who offered them comfort when they lost someone dear to them, or 1.8 pm when they lost their jobs or had problems with housing, The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I beg to which you have just mentioned, or troubles with schooling. move, On the streets of Cowlairs, Sighthill or Barlarnock you That this House records its warm appreciation of the manner will get the same answer: it was Michael Martin. This in which the Right Honourable Michael Martin has occupied the House should salute a Speaker who has made his office of Speaker; expresses its thanks for the humanity and good constituency proud and who is hailed as a friend by humour with which he has presided over the affairs of the House people from every background and every walk of life at a most challenging time; congratulates him on the kindness and when he walks down the streets of his constituency; a openness he has shown to all Members and for establishing a Speaker’s conference to examine engagement of Parliament with Speaker who, as he said, was born and brought up in an increasingly diverse society; and accordingly unites in sending the city that he has represented with pride for 30 years; him its wishes for a long and happy retirement upon his departure a Speaker whose small kindnesses to hundreds of people from the Chair. are remembered and unfailingly appreciated, and who Mr. Speaker, I regard it as a great privilege that it falls has brought home to thousands what Westminster at its to me to be the first to speak to this motion, and best can do for people. the first to offer you, on behalf of the whole House, Never interested in the trappings of office, only in the heartfelt thanks for your long and dedicated service to concerns of the people we represent, this is a Speaker Parliament—as a Member of Parliament, a Chair of who returned to his constituency every weekend to meet Committees, a Deputy Speaker and, of course, most the people he represented and who has never forgotten recently, for nearly nine years’ service as our Speaker. where he came from, always determined to hear what As is typical of you, in your remarks today, you have they had to say to him; a Speaker who, because he been anxious to thank all those who have worked with worked his way up with no special privileges accorded you during your period as Speaker. As is also typical of to him, can encourage and inspire young people in the you, your concern for others is reflected in the work that same position to do the same. you have done with your wife in hosting numerous It is a fitting tribute, Mr. Speaker, to your long-standing charitable events in the Speaker’s House. And as again commitment to housing, which you just mentioned, is typical of you, you ended your speech today by from your days as a councillor on Glasgow city council talking about the human rights and social justice with to your maiden speech in the House, which referred to which Parliament is best associated, and your commitment housing, to your work today with housing associations to that as a lifelong supporter of both the rights of across north-east Glasgow, that as part of a programme individuals and social justice. of housing and care for those with learning disabilities Your long career and your life’s journey from your there stands in Glasgow today none other than Martin roots in post-war Glasgow—no easy upbringing, no house. It is a reflection of your work in supporting special privileges, education mainly in the hard school employment opportunities in Glasgow that you helped of life—through your apprenticeship, which you described, to transform a restored warehouse into City Park, a as a sheet metal worker and a shop steward, then via the state-of-the-art office space that has provided over 2,500 trades union movement and local government into jobs, thanks to your inspiration. Parliament and on to the highest office of this ancient forum of democracy, is an inspiring story of commitment Perhaps it was because of your deep roots in community and determination in the service of your community, service that you brought to the role of Speaker your your party, this Parliament and our nation. hallmark kindness and consideration, for which you will rightly be remembered with such affection. As I Let us remember, fellow Members, how this Speaker know myself, and as other Members in the House worked his way up. His father served in the war and was know, your personal concern for those of us who were shipwrecked three times by torpedo. His mother, who bereaved or otherwise troubled, the notes and letters, brought him up, taught him that he and his community and the kind words went far beyond the duties of the had to fight for everything they won. To leave school at office of Speaker, but I am sure that to you were they 15 with no formal qualifications and then rise to the were just the ordinary duties of a man who cares about speakership of the House of Commons tells of a man people. of unique parliamentary abilities, and of dedication, self-belief and tireless hard work. You have known While interns in their hundreds have for so long been better than many in the House what it is like to grow up able to come to and feel at home in these precincts, your in poverty, and also what it takes to overcome it, but initiative on craft apprenticeships, which you have just throughout it all you have remained true to your principles mentioned, has enabled young people from less privileged and proud of where you have come from. backgrounds to train here and, with skills as stonemasons You are a teetotaller, so the pleasure that you gave to and electricians, make a genuine and lasting contribution others in choosing and testing Mr. Speaker’s brand of to the upkeep of this place and then go on to fulfilling whisky is something that they are entirely grateful for. I careers in later life. am reminded that in Glasgow 100 years ago, the Labour At every stage of your career, you have always thought party once stood on a platform supporting your position first of how to extend opportunities to those denied on the prohibition of alcohol, and decided never to them. You have always stood at the shoulder of those stand on that platform at another election. struggling to make a better life for themselves and their You know Glasgow and have come up through the families. You said in your first acceptance speech in difficult school of Glasgow politics. You know what is October 2000 that family was important to you and that said about someone appearing in Glasgow as a you would endeavour to see that families were included comedian—if they like you, they do not laugh. They in the proceedings of the House. Even before you were just let you live. elected Speaker, it was largely due to your efforts that 317 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 318 the Parliamentary Commissioner approved a voucher As the Prime Minister said, your life story is inspiring scheme to provide child care in the House. I hope you not just to people in the House or in Glasgow, but to can take great pride in some of the changes that have people throughout our country. I know you will be been made in modernising the House during your time, missed hugely in Glasgow, North-East when you stand not least the changes to the sitting hours and, of course, down as a Member of Parliament. I am sure that those the new procedures for election of the Speaker, which on both sides of the House are very much looking we will use for the first time next week. forward to the by-election. I can only hope that all your I have spoken of your love of family. No tribute to constituents will be as friendly to me as you have been. you could be complete without mention of your children, [Laughter.] I am always hopeful. Paul and Mary Ann, and your wife Mary, a wonderful Your approach to chairing debates has been quiet but family for whose support I know you will always be persuasive. Your decency and your kindness are clear. enormously grateful. They and you have much to be We saw your decency during the Baby P debate last proud of from your nine years as our Speaker and from year. As for your kindness, I referred a few days ago to your 30 years outstanding service to the House and this the advice that you gave me when I was a new Back country. I am sure the whole House will always be Bencher in 2001. It was typical of your approachability grateful to you. We hope you will enjoy a long and to all Members, but especially Back Benchers, which happy retirement, and every Member in every part of you have made a personal trademark throughout your the House offers you every good wish for the future. time in office. The last Speaker, Speaker Boothroyd, Thank you. was the first woman Speaker. Youwere the first Catholic since the Reformation to be Speaker. It is easy to 1.15 pm overlook the change that the election of you and your Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): It is right, immediate predecessor as Speaker signify. Mr. Speaker, that the House has this opportunity to pay I was struck by one comment that you made in an tribute to the service that you have given—for once, I interview after becoming Speaker. When asked about can say “you” while remaining in order. I share so much the procedures of this place, you recalled some wise of what the Prime Minister said about your record and words of Jim Callaghan: about what you have done for your constituents and for “Always remember that things that are traditional shouldn’t be the House. Yours was a very moving speech. Everyone thrown out just because they are traditional; and things that are could hear your passion about this place, and all of us traditional shouldn’t necessarily be kept for the sake of being who care about the House of Commons, Parliament traditional.” and its place in public life must deliver what you said we That is a good principle for the reform not only of the must—the restoration of trust in the House of Commons. House, but, I would argue, of every other institution in It is fair to say that there have been quieter times to be our country. Speaker, although some of your predecessors may have I shall end by noting another interview, this time to had cause to think they had picked even shorter straws. the “Politics Show”, which provides several lessons for After all, seven of them were beheaded. You have us all. In that interview, Mr. Speaker, you emphasised presided over the House at a time when there has been the importance of switching off from politics—in your widespread concern about an over-mighty Executive case, by playing the bagpipes. You said that the secret of and the diminished role of Parliament. That was not Prime Minister’s Question Time was to relax and calm something that was in your power alone to stop. down and not to get psyched up. That is a piece of Let us be clear about the expenses issue. The whole advice that I will perhaps one day try to take. You said House shares in its responsibility for what has happened also that the best way to approach colleagues in the in recent weeks. As you said in your remarks, it was the House was to give them just enough rope before pulling House as a whole—not all of us, but the House as a them in, and that you liked to smile at Members just whole—which last July rejected many of the reforms before you told them off. As I can see that you are put forward by the Members Estimate Committee, which smiling now, I think it is time to bring my remarks to a you chair. As you noted in your statement, some of the close. [Laughter.] However, I know, and we all know, proposals now being put forward to clean up this place that you will enjoy spending more quality time with are similar to the ones that your Committee recommended your wife, Mary, and your beloved grandchildren. So a year ago. Fortunately, a consensus exists in this place both on a personal level and on behalf of everyone on now to accept what it was not willing to accept then, but the Opposition Benches, I wish you the very best for the we all share collective responsibility for that delay, and years ahead. we all now have a responsibility to restore the reputation of the House. 1.20 pm You have served exactly three decades in Parliament. During that time you have shown huge dedication, both Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): Mr. Speaker, in public service to your constituents and to the House in the circumstances, it is especially generous of you to itself. You have served not only as Speaker, but as give me the opportunity to speak today, and I am Chairman of the House of Commons Commission and grateful to you for that. of the Speaker’s Conference, and before that as a Chairman I entered this House only in 2005, and one of my of Committees, member of the Speaker’s Panel of most abiding memories of those first few weeks was Chairmen for more than a decade, and Chairman of the your generosity to the former Member for Cheadle, Scottish Grand Committee. It is a remarkable record of Patsy Calton, when she came, despite the fragility of her distinguished service, matched only by the huge dedication health, to swear the oath of allegiance. I do not think that you have shown to your constituency in Glasgow, that any of us will forget the tenderness with which you starting from your period as a councillor. stepped from the Chair, against all convention, to greet 319 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 320

[Mr. Nick Clegg] Your distinguished predecessor, Speaker Boothroyd, is famously known for having said that there are times her by the Dispatch Box. It has been clear to all of us, when she thinks that she has come a long way, and I whatever differences there might be, that personal kindness believe that you are certainly entitled to say the same. has been the outstanding characteristic of your time in Mr Speaker, I repeat my thanks to you once again. the Chair—a kindness that enthused every word of what you said earlier. 1.25 pm As a newly elected party leader, I remember sitting with you in your apartments, talking not about politics Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): but about our families, and I remember on another Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my right hon. and hon. occasion watching you unveil a portrait of my right Friends, I would like to thank you for the privilege of hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East being able to speak on a very important and, I am sure Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) in those same rooms. It for you, personal and emotional day, because you have was wonderful to listen to both of you reminisce about not only served this House but given excellent service to the journey that had taken you from almost the same the United Kingdom. I am sure that you are rightly area in Glasgow to public service here in Parliament. proud of your achievement in the political world, coming from humble surroundings right to the highest office Mr. Speaker, whatever differences there have been, here, as Speaker of this United Kingdom Parliament. you and I share a belief in the importance of our You have also been an inspiration, and in actual fact democracy. Our political institutions, as you have pointed your story is an inspiration to many young people, out, have come under immense and unprecedented pressure showing them that they can look up, aim high and in recent times, but democracy remains an idea that is accomplish even the greatest achievements, irrespective bigger than every one of us—an idea that must be of their humble beginnings. defended no matter the personal cost. I know—everyone here knows—that you gave yourself, heart and soul, to Mr. Speaker, you have always shown the greatest the job of Speaker. Above all, you have shown us all courtesy to my colleagues and me over the years, and I how to temper great authority with great kindness, and place on the record our deepest gratitude to you. I that will be your legacy. would also like to thank you for your acts of kindness, and your generosity will never be forgotten. Sir, you opened Speaker’s House to many people who would 1.22 pm never have gone there if it had not been for your kindness, and you invited Members from all parts of Mr. Mohammad Sarwar (Glasgow, Central) (Lab): the House to go to many excellent occasions there, and Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure and a privilege to for that we owe you and your good wife Mary our address my remarks to you in paying the warmest deepest gratitude. tribute for the service that you have provided to this House, for which we are indebted to you. I would like to I should express my personal appreciation of your thank you personally for the kindness and support that taste in music, given that you invited me to participate you offered me when I was elected. I believe that throughout in your excellent Burns night events on two occasions. your term as Speaker, you have always had the best The House will, however, be delighted to know that no interests of this House at heart, and, even now, in performance fees were asked for or received, and therefore leaving office, you have put those interests first. that can go on the public record. I did not, however, stimulate the economy by imbibing any of Mr. Speaker’s Your election as Speaker was a great honour for you whisky and, for that, I am absolutely delighted to be and your family, and an even greater honour for our able to keep a very steady and good head. native city of Glasgow. You began your working life as a sheet metal worker, and all your achievements are the Mr. Speaker, I conclude by wishing you and Mary result of your own hard work and ambition. It is a every happiness in your retirement, and I trust and pray positive indicator of the society in which we live today that you are able to leave this House with your head that someone from such humble beginnings can rise to held high, having been the defender of the ordinary one of the greatest offices in the country. Members of this House—the Back Benchers. For that, we shall be eternally grateful. Mr. Speaker, I was incredibly sad when you informed this House that you were resigning from the office of Mr. Speaker: I call the Father of the House. Speaker. That sentiment has been shared by many of my constituents who have contacted me over the past few weeks. 1.28 pm I would like to share with the House a few lines of an Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) (Lab): Mr. Speaker, e-mail that I received from a 16-year-old constituent may I say what a great pleasure it was, at the beginning who visited the House last year as part of a school trip. of this Parliament, to preside over your reselection as Her name is Kayleigh Quinn, and she wrote: Speaker of this House? You were a triple-first candidate: “I am deeply upset that Mr Martin has been compelled to as has been said, you were the first Catholic, the first resign from his post. As someone from the same working-class metalworker and, unsurprisingly, the first teetotaller to Glasgow background as Michael Martin I am extremely proud of occupy the Chair. You learned of your needs to protect what he has achieved in his political career. The Members of the rights of the Back Bencher through 18 years in Parliament who contributed to his decision ought to be ashamed.” opposition, and I think that many Opposition Members In short, Mr. Speaker, many young people throughout now, having spent 12 years in opposition, particularly the United Kingdom look to you as a source of those in the party that governed previously, view inspiration—an inspiration that anything can be achieved accountability rather differently from when they sat on through dedication and hard work. the Government Benches. 321 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 322

I well recollect my very first day in the House, in Mr. Speaker, your love for and commitment to the 1964, when I sat on the second row of the Government House has never, ever been questioned. I am sure that I Benches. I was sitting next to Iorwerth Thomas, a speak on behalf of the whole House in wishing you and 70-year-old Welsh Member, and I said to him, “Well, your family the happiness that you deserve in retirement. Iori, it must be wonderful to be sitting on this side of the House after 13 years on that side,” and he thought 1.34 pm and he said, “Yes, my boy; the sun gets in your eyes on the other side of the House.” That, of course, was in Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): It the days before television and the screening of the gives me great pleasure to say some brief words to windows. celebrate your work, Mr. Speaker, and to thank you for As you said, you served your apprenticeship as Speaker it. I do that on behalf of my hon. Friends from Plaid doing the unglamorous work of chairing the legislative Cymru and, I am sure, on behalf of the public at large. I and administrative Committees of the House, and you am also pleased to have agreed with everything that has duly became Deputy Speaker. By the time you became been said hitherto. You,of course, are the 156th Speaker the Speaker of the House, you were a complete House of Parliament, and you have been unfailing in your of Commons man. You said then that the Speaker’s courtesy and help throughout your tenure. Almost duty was to serve the House, not the Executive, and to immediately after your election as Speaker, we all became protect the rights of Back Benchers. aware of a press lobby that harboured misgivings about the appointment of a one-time steel worker to such a Essentially, you are also a constituency man. I was high office. Those have not crossed my mind; my experience intrigued to come across a quote from Bill Walker, the has been of a Speaker who has been scrupulously fair former Conservative MP whom many here will remember. and who always had an eye on the interests of Back Bill said of you: Benchers and minority parties. “He is always respected by his electorate because he speaks Owing to the attention from some sections of the from the heart.” media, I can only imagine that at times the pressures on That was a touching thing for a political opponent to you and your family have been immense. Despite your say, and it helps explain the affection in which you are vast work load, every time that I have sought a meeting held in your own constituency. You are an innately kind with you, one has been arranged swiftly; even the odd man, as we heard from one of our colleagues even in meetings that I attended to do some grousing were Question Time today. Since you have been Speaker, unfailingly cordial and businesslike. your door has been open to any Member who wants Speaking of grouse, I should say that I have a feather advice or guidance. in my cap that is not shared by any other right hon. or To follow on from something that you mentioned, I hon. Member. A few weeks before the official opening should say that until last July, I was secretary of the of the Senedd building at the National Assembly in British-American parliamentary group for seven years. Cardiff, I received a telephone call from the Speaker’s I thank you, on behalf of not only that group but the Clerk, asking whether I would visit you. I duly responded Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth and attended as requested, having no idea why I was Parliamentary Association, for all your work to help being summoned in that way. I entered your chambers our endeavours to develop relationships with democracies in a quizzical mood, with no earthly idea of why I was overseas. You put an enormous amount of time into there. I comforted myself with the thought that I had that, and it is appreciated by us all. been behaving reasonably well in the Chamber and that As Chair of the Liaison Committee, may I also thank I was probably not going to be dressed down. you for your enormous support for Select Committees? When you came in, you said that, as a Scot, you were They are only 30 years old this year, but they represent keen to make a speech in the Welsh language during the one of the greatest transformations in parliamentary official opening ceremony in Cardiff. You asked me to accountability. When I became Chair of the Liaison write a short speech and translate it into Welsh. I did Committee, I spoke to every Select Committee Chairman. that, recorded it and gave you a tape. There followed a Having served on the Public Accounts Committee, I practice session in which you showed a mastery of the was horrified at what I discovered was available as language. I recall that you said that you were keen to do back-up and support to our Select Committees. I asked a good job, because anything else would be seen as that a review be set up and that the National Audit insulting. Anyway, your pronunciation was second to Office be included in that review to ensure that it was none when the fabled, fickle finger of fate pointed your seen as impartial. way and you were struck down by a heavy dose of When the review reported, you and the House of influenza. You could not attend. In the meantime, I was Commons Commission responded instantly. You gave in the auditorium at Cardiff, awaiting my star pupil. So the Select Committees the largest injection of support it is that I refer to myself as Welsh language tutor to the that they had received in 20 years. To ensure that such a 156th Speaker of the House of Commons; that is situation never arose again, five-yearly reviews were probably as high as I will ever go in this institution. also established so that the future of the Committees You also referred to your being a teetotaller. I remember would be secure. We are deeply grateful to you for attending a meeting with you and the right hon. Member that. You have presided during two wars and the for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond). At its conclusion, greatest economic crisis that any of us has ever seen. you brought out a bottle of whisky and, as they say in Throughout, you have tried to be even-handed between Scotland, you “poured a good one”—in fact, for my the Government and the Opposition and you have tried liking it was a very good one. I was drinking on an to protect the right of Back Benchers to hold the empty stomach and unaccustomed to undiluted whisky. Executive to account. For the remainder of the meeting, I was with the birds. 323 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 324

[Mr. Elfyn Llwyd] to know you as an individual—a man of kindness, a man of humanity—some of the totally unjustified criticism Speaker Weatherill once said that a Speaker has no that has been levelled at you would never have been friends, but you know that that is not true. You have spoken. I deeply regret it. I think I can say on behalf of sincere friends in all corners of the House. It has been a many Members of this House that I feel the criticism privilege to serve under you. I wish you, your lovely wife that has been made of you as much as if it had been Mary and your whole family the very best in health and made of me personally, because it was unjustified; you happiness on the cusp of what we all hope will be a were not understood. The statement that you have long, fulfilling and well-earned retirement. No doubt delivered to the House today has been of immense there will now be time enough to become fluent in the value. I hope that it will be very widely read, because if, Welsh language. Pob bendith a llwyddiant i chi a’ch from time to time, this House had accepted your counsel, teulu. Diolch yn fawr! perhaps some of the worst criticism and the serious problems that we have faced in recent times would never 1.38 pm have arisen. Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): May I say, Mr. Speaker, that my wife and I were Mr. Speaker, I address you in your capacity as a fine particularly grateful to you for allowing us to use your Speaker of the House of Commons, a devoted Member wonderful state apartments to celebrate 60 years of and, if I may say so, a good friend. With others, I had combined service in this House? It was a wonderful the privilege of serving on the Speaker’s Committee on party—a wonderful occasion—attended by Members the Electoral Commission. I remember what a trenchant from all parties in this House. May I add that you Chairman you were, within your obligatory neutrality. remained to the bitter end of what was a very long One of the great features of your speakership, and party, and you were able to do that with humour and one that I have not noticed to the same extent under the commitment, without the stimulation of any alcohol other Speakers during my service in the House, is how whatsoever? That indicates the sort of man you are. you have reached out to the variegated communities I can say personally, Mr. Speaker, that I shall sincerely that make up the great and colourful mosaic of Britain. miss you for your kindness and for your humanity. I You reached out to the Muslim and Jewish communities. believe that the record that you have left, coming from I had the privilege of attending the events that you the background that you do, is one of which you should arranged to commemorate Hanukkah, the Jewish festival be immensely proud. I am personally immensely proud of lights. Apart from my occasional visits to the synagogue, to have known you and to have served for nearly a I probably met more Jews at those ceremonies than I do quarter of a century on your panel of Chairmen. You in my normal daily activities. The ceremonies were very are truly a magnificent representative of Glasgow. You moving, and I very much hope that your successor will are a wonderful family man. On all occasions, your love continue them, because they brought a glow and a of family—your love of Mary and your children—shone beauty to Speaker’s House. through like a beacon. I wish you, on behalf of myself May I, Mr. Speaker, both personally and as a Member and perhaps every Member of this House, a very happy of this House, wish you Godspeed? You have served and long retirement, and I hope that our paths will this House extraordinarily well, and we shall miss you. cross. I wish you well. 1.40 pm 1.45 pm Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Mr. Speaker, Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. my tribute will be personal. I am, I think, the longest-serving Others have made the point that you are the first member of the Speaker’s Panel, and in that capacity, metalworker to be Speaker and the first Catholic to be clearly, I have had a lot to do with you. Everything, Speaker. I took my seat in 2005, so you are the first from my point of view, has been entirely satisfactory. Speaker I have known. Like others, I have always been You have shown kindness, understanding, courtesy and hugely impressed by the consideration and courtesy care. May I say, perhaps on behalf of the Speaker’s that you show to each and every Member of this House, Panel—your panel of those who chair Public Bill to all the parties in this House, and to all the regions Committees and Delegated Legislation Committees in represented in this House. I can recall, on taking my this House—that the care and courtesy that you have seat, the warmth of your handshake and greeting, and extended to us has always been hugely appreciated? The the fact that that lasted through the manner in which annual reception that you give for members of your you, with civility and sensitivity, received my complaints panel in your state apartments, prior to our own private as an Irish nationalist having to recite an affirmation of dinner, is always hugely appreciated, and, as you know allegiance, and immediately moved on to ask after from the attendance, greatly appreciated by Members people such as John Hume and Seamus Mallon—who as well. send their salute to you today. May I pick just one word out of the motion that was Mr. Speaker, you have never pretended to be a big moved so eloquently by the Prime Minister—“humanity”? thinker, but you are one of the most thoughtful people I That has not been mentioned other than in the text of have ever come across in political life. You are not a the motion. You have been a Speaker who has shown grabber, but you have the best and warmest reach of huge humanity. You have sought, on all occasions, to anyone in this House—a quiet reach that extends not stand up for the interests of this House. You have just across party lines and regional differences in this sought not only to defend this House as an institution House, but outside this House, across professional interests but, from time to time, to defend Members when they and across religious and faith dimensions. You have have rightly come to you for advice and help. Much of never particularly advertised that, but I am glad that this is not appreciated by the people out there, which is you took the opportunity to reflect on some of those very regrettable. I think that if people had actually got points today. 325 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 326

I think it was also appropriate that you, Mr. Speaker, House, your deep roots in the Back Benches, your addressed some of the issues surrounding recent events, earlier work on the Chairmen’s Panel and Domestic and it would be inappropriate if, in the course of all Committees and your experience in the Chair as Deputy these tributes, you ended up being the only person who Speaker. I mentioned your genial and approachable did so. The House should receive well the reminder that manner, underpinned by a deep affection for and you offered, and if there was a measure of rebuke in it, commitment to the House. I said that all those qualities the House should receive that rebuke well, too. There struck a chord with the House. They did then, and they were opportunities, and there is now an opportunity do today. cost that the House is suffering. Unfortunately—it happens The Prime Minister referred to your background in in life, and it certainly happens in political life—sometimes the trade union movement, and I wish to mention one events, perceptions and moods conspire to result in role related to that. It is not the role of negotiating with some necessary unfairness or unfair necessity, and you management, because after all you are the management, find yourself in many ways a victim of that. but that of shop steward. It is the role of someone As you spend your retirement not just in your whom a Member can approach for advice and comfort constituency but, I am sure, in one near me—not a when they have a problem—the so-called pastoral role. constituency represented in this House, but that of I know that you have done a lot of that as Speaker, and Donegal North East, where I know you have such it is an important role, particularly at this difficult time affinities and family connections—and contemplate how for the House and its Members. I hope that that role many people who resisted or avoided change in the past may continue, and I wish you and Mary a long and are now leapfrogging each other to be the champions of happy retirement. ever more change and openness, you will be able to ruminate on the adage that, in politics, irony is just 1.51 pm hypocrisy with panache. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): It is said, and I want, not just on my own behalf but that of my has been said today, that the best speeches come from party colleagues, to extend that tribute and thanks not the heart. All the speeches that you have heard today in only to you but, as you have rightly done, to all your the House have come from the heart, Mr. Speaker, as staff; and to your wife, Mary, who has, with you, again does mine. in a very special and quiet way, done so much to make I have worked with you on the House of Commons Speaker’s House available to so many good causes, as Commission for all the years that you have been Speaker. has been said, and to use it as a special stage to I served your predecessor, and it was an honour and a recognise, celebrate and encourage young talent from privilege to serve you. I mention those passing years all the regions represented in the House. because in all that time, in addition to your ceremonial All Members will miss the warmth of your presence duties and your stewardship of this House, you have here and the consideration that you show. You are an always had one thing uppermost in your mind: the extremely modest man. As we have heard, you are a well-being of 646 Members of this House. You have Catholic. I am sure that as a Catholic boy of your seen them individually and, as you are seeing them now, vintage, you would have learned your catechism, which you have seen them collectively. You have sought to would have included lessons about calumny and protect their interests against all the slings and arrows detraction—what they were and the difference between of outrageous fortune. them. After your experience in recent weeks, I am sure I know that you particularly enjoyed being in the that you can give examples of both, and of how you Chair when votes were taking place and Members could have been on the wrong end of examples of both. come up to you and speak to you. Many unburdened However, Mr. Speaker, whatever the coverage in recent themselves and opened their hearts to you. They knew times and however hurtful it was, just remember that that they were able to do so in the utmost confidence. you, this modest man whom we respect, leave here with You were their friend as well as their Speaker. In many immense pride. small ways and in many large, you defended their singular 1.49 pm and collective interests in a Parliament to which Members Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): are elected from the Shetlands to Land’s End and back May I add a brief footnote to the generous tributes that again, representing different and differing constituencies have been paid to you, Mr. Speaker? I begin by saying but all seeking to do their duty by this House and by how very much I welcome what you said in your statement their constituents. For that, the entire House owes you a about the issue of privilege. I was delighted to hear that debt of gratitude. we are now going to make progress with it, as it does You have served your nation, Sir, and you deserve our indeed need addressing. respect and admiration. There is little mean or common Mr. Speaker, you may have forgotten the conversation that you have done on this memorable scene, and we that we had shortly after you saw off a large number of can only thank you with gratitude, wish you, Mary, contenders for your job some nine years ago. I asked Paul and Mary well, and wish you a very happy and you whether, on the assumption that we were both long retirement. returned in the 2001 general election, I might propose you as Speaker at the beginning of the new Parliament. 1.53 pm We both felt that that would be a good way of healing Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): As the senior any wounds, and you generously agreed to it. of the two elected independents, it is my absolute privilege I have been looking at what I said then, almost to add some words to the tributes to you, Mr. Speaker. exactly eight years ago to the day, at the beginning of In particular, as others have said, I am most grateful for that Parliament, and I would say the same today. I your detailed statement, which set the record straight. referred to your commitment and long service to the Thank you, Sir, for that. 327 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 328

[Dr. Richard Taylor] A word to those who wish to succeed you. One of the most wonderful things that I have done in this House I should like to pick out three words and phrases has been serving on Committees. I have served on your mentioned in the tribute that the Prime Minister proposed, Chairmen’s Panel for a while, but I also served on the the first of which is “kindness”. On my arrival, I joined special little committee that chose Speaker Martin’s some other new Members in meeting with you. I was Whisky. That was a real privilege, and I hope that a then surprised to receive an invitation to have a cup of similar one can be afforded other hon. Members. tea. I thought that it would be with a few others as well, I know the professionalism and sincerity that you but no, it was with me alone. You wanted to know have brought to the job, and all that I wish to do is echo whether I was feeling lonely. That was so kind and so the words about the great kindnesses that you have typical of your attitude that I shall always remember it. shown. I will miss you as Speaker, and also as a friend. I am still not quite sure which of my many Adjournment Have a good retirement. debates on health issues you pushed for and which were produced by the computer, so thank you for that, too. 1.59 pm The second word that I wish to pick out is “humanity”. Sir Peter Viggers (Gosport) (Con): I did not expect Your involvement with charities has been mentioned, this to be a reunion of the panel that was chosen to and I remember one of the latest events, at which you select your malt whisky, Mr. Speaker, but it is. I was also opened the charity for the refurbishment of St. Margaret’s. a member of that Committee. It was at the height of your stress, but you were still able The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir to come in and speak to that charity. Your receptions Gerald Kaufman) made passing reference to the Speaker’s for staff have also been highly appreciated. Some of my Committee on the Electoral Commission, which has friends among the catering staff who serve us in the been one of your important roles. It has been given Terrace Cafeteria have said how much they have appreciated specific tasks in relation to the commission, such as the being involved in some of them. approval of its budget, the examination of its estimates The third phrase is “good humour”, which includes and reporting to the House. It is a carefully constructed your tolerance. The best example of that—some Members link between an independent body and this House, and on the Opposition Benches will remember it, as we had it has achieved its role very well. You appointed five of a very good view—was at one session of Prime Minister’s the nine members, and Electoral Commissions cannot questions, when the Prime Minister was perhaps not at be appointed without the Speaker’s consent, effectively the height of his popularity. One very young Labour making your office the person responsible for such Whip was standing within about two inches of your appointments. right ear and very loudly orchestrating support from In January 2007, the Committee on Standards in the Labour Benches. You put him down with a superb Public Life recommended a change in the emphasis of but very brief, tolerant and humorous set-down. That the Electoral Commission to play a more regulatory provides a hint to the person who is selected to follow role, and the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral you that when hon. Members are behaving like unruly Commission, under your chairmanship, actively participated schoolkids, as all too often they do, the best answer is in the discussions that led to the implementation of the good humour. That keeps the place going. proposals. The work of the Speaker’s Committee has An attribute that has not been mentioned is your been well respected, and I am sure that the other members humility, Mr. Speaker. Despite everything that you have of the committee and, indeed, the Electoral Commission, been through and overseen, you still regard your greatest would wish to pay tribute to your chairmanship during privilege as that of representing your friends and neighbours an active and evolutionary time. at home. That is a real tribute. Thank you, Sir, very Being the spokesman of the Speaker’s Committee much. I wish you and your beloved family happiness in gave me an opportunity to come to know you quite a long retirement. well, and I am extremely grateful for the courtesy and kindness that you always extended to me and the other 1.57 pm members of the committee. Mr. Bill Olner (Nuneaton) (Lab): It gives me great honour to be associated with the motion that my right 2pm hon. Friend the Prime Minister moved. It was a fitting Mr. Frank Doran (Aberdeen, North) (Lab): Mr. Speaker, tribute to your good self, Mr. Speaker. I associate myself with all the positive comments about Every Member of Parliament knows where they were your contribution to the House and your personal when a new Speaker was selected. I can remember approach to the job of Speaker. I am particularly pleased sitting on the Opposition Benches when we elected your to underline the comments about your attitude to the predecessor, Betty Boothroyd, as Speaker. I remember staff of the House of Commons. I know how much it is that those on the Government Benches said, “Don’t get appreciated by everyone from the Clerk down to the too excited, that’s the only vote you’re going to win in lowest cleaner in the basement. this Parliament”, and it was. I can also remember your I want to add a little about my contact with you. I election, Mr. Speaker. I remember the dignified way in was first elected in 1987 as one of 19 new Members of which you approached it and quite rightly won the Parliament in Scotland. You were one of the people support of the overwhelming majority of the House. who gave us most support as new, very raw MPs. In You and I come from similar trade union backgrounds, 2005, I was selected as Chair of the Administration having similarly left school at 15 and become apprentices. Committee and developed a much closer working I was not one of those whom you had to tell what a relationship with you. It is important to put on record sheet metal worker was, because I already knew that the number of changes that have happened under your before I got down here. speakership. 329 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 330

We have been through momentous times in developing and I hope that those who now deal with those matters and modernising the building and the institution. As will appreciate their importance. As a Member of Chair of the Administration Committee, I quickly learned Parliament representing a constituency nearly 500 miles that most of my colleagues do not give a damn about away, I could not afford to be a Member without the what happens in this place as long as it works. However, allowances, and I know that you have defended that it is important to record the changes that have been made. principle sincerely throughout your period of office. I My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister rightly hope that, when decisions are made, others will reflect mentioned the modernisation of the hours that happened as seriously as I believe that Ted Heath did when he on your watch, but it is also right to remember more introduced the system in 1971. mundane matters, such as the introduction in 2001 of May I add my good wishes to you and Mary? Virtually IT systems for Members of Parliament and the creation everyone who passed on their good wishes talked about of a joint IT service with the House of Lords; the your retirement. I think I know you better than that. modernisation of the administration of the House after You may be leaving the House of Commons, but I am the Tebbit inquiry, and the creation of the new departments, not so sure that it is retirement. which are much more focused on services to Members rather than to the institution of the House of Commons; 2.7 pm the creation of a new post of chief executive, for which many of us called over many years, and the development Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): It has of a Members’ centre, which again recognises the always astonished me, Mr. Speaker, that you almost importance of service directly to Members. always remember the names of every Member of the House, but I found it truly amazing when, a few months Substantial changes have also occurred—some have ago, you acknowledged by name from the Speaker’s yet to take effect. They include the House’s agreement procession my seven-year-old son when he was lining to establish an education centre. The will mark significant up to watch you in your splendour. That made me progress in the facilities that the House offers. At the realise that you appreciate that the House of Commons moment, our facilities can cater for approximately 20,000 is not just about what happens in the Chamber, but that to 30,000 schoolchildren in a year. When the new education we all have families, people who work for us and many centre is established, we will be able to deal with more thousands of people outside the Chamber who make than 100,000, making this place more accessible. We are the House of Commons work. You can acknowledge currently running a pilot scheme for subsidised travel them all, and they all look up to you. for schoolchildren to come to the House of Commons. So far, it has been enormously successful. Some of us—it may be a small minority—appreciate your playing of the bagpipes. It has been a great privilege The big issue that has been on all our minds in recent to take part not only in your famous whisky tasting for years, to which you referred several times in your speech, producing Speaker Martin’s malt—I am glad it has is Members’ allowances. I congratulate you on the been such a bestseller—but in the very first Burns points that you made. When one reads the press, one supper, which you inaugurated in Speaker’s House. Like would think that you were sitting doing nothing, but I you, I take my moral ideas from Robert Burns. He know from my contact with you how much work you would be proud, as we all are, that you personally have and the members of the Commission put in, not just taken us a step nearer that great aim: when we experienced the problem of employing family “Then let us pray that come it may, members, or in the recent crisis of the publication of our expenses in detail, but long before that. You recognised (As come it will for a’that,)… the problems that our system posed for us, realised that, That Man to Man, the world o’er, with the Freedom of Information Act 2001, things had Shall brothers be for a’that.” to change, and tried to find some solution. Like you, I feel strongly about the fact that we did not accept the 2.9 pm Commission’s report to the House last year. Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): I want to Recent events have made me think about the way in make a personal tribute to you and your speakership, which we deal with expenses. My first exposure to MPs’ Mr. Speaker. Yourshas been a remarkable journey from allowances and so on came when I was a brand new ordinary working-class lad from Glasgow to one of the Member in either late 1987 or early 1988, when we were highest offices in the land—Speaker of the House of asked to vote on our pay. I took the trade union Commons. You are a tribute to our democracy and an position that a worker is entitled to the rate for the job. I example to us all. found myself in the Lobby, which was jam packed, You have served with dignity and distinction, often in because most of my colleagues took the same view as the face of the inherent snobbery that still persists in me, pressed against the former Prime Minister and some parts of the British establishment. On a personal Conservative party leader, Ted Heath. I said to him, level, I thank you for your kindness to me, not least “For many years, I campaigned against your Government when you agreed some years ago to meet my good and denounced everything you stood for, yet here we friend Frank Duffy and me in your apartments—I am are, shoulder to shoulder in the Lobby.” He turned sure you remember that. Frank Duffy is another working- round and said, as only he could, “Young man, this will class trade union activist from Glasgow, but it was happen twice in every Parliament, on pay and hanging.” Frank’s father whom you admired so much, for his That is the sort of leader I like. He did not just say trade union activities in Glasgow. We were accompanied things, he did things. that day by Frank’s daughter Carol Ann and her daughter In 1971, Ted Heath’s Government introduced the Ella. Carol Ann was recently appointed poet laureate, allowances system that has caused us so much difficulty. and her father Frank and her daughter are very proud It was introduced after due thought and consideration of that. As memorable as that appointment is, however, 331 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 332

[Mr. David Clelland] Benchers, which was never understood by many outside this place, and certainly not by many in the Press I am quite sure that they will always remember with Gallery. The story dates from before when you became great fondness their visit to Speaker Martin’s Apartment the Speaker, when you were the Deputy Speaker and, as and your allowing Ella to bounce on the bed. such, the Chairman of Ways and Means. Today I have I congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your term of the chance to put it on the record. Without your help, I office and thank you for your kindness. I wish you and do not think that my progress into this House would your family a long and happy life ahead. have been as smooth and easy as it was. I do not know whether you remember our first meeting, 2.10 pm Mr. Speaker. It was in February 1997, at a conference in Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): It is a pleasure and Scotland. I have to admit that when you approached me an honour to add my tribute to those hon. Members and introduced yourself, I was not sure who you were—I from all parts of the House on behalf of the Scottish was vaguely aware that you were one of the Glasgow National party. In this place and elsewhere you have Labour MPs. As someone from the north-east of Scotland, constantly been a fair Speaker to the Scottish and I have to admit that my knowledge of the personalities Welsh, and all the Northern Irish parties in this House. of Glasgow Labour politics was somewhat hazy to say Given your background in a previous political existence, the least. Anyway, you obviously recognised me as a as a Scottish Labour Member of Parliament, some candidate in a potentially winnable seat, and this is observers opined that it would be difficult for us to have where I have to give you credit. You realised that having a collegial relationship during your speakership, but someone who permanently uses a wheelchair elected to nothing could have been further from the truth. Your this House might require just the odd bit of adaptation record shows your fairness towards the SNP from the and forward planning. As a result, you asked me to Chair, which includes the selection of an excellent Speaker’s write to you in your capacity as Chairman of Ways and malt from the Speyside region of my constituency. Means once Parliament had prorogued for the election and there was no longer a sitting Member for Aberdeen, Over recent years, there has been some appalling South with some suggestions of what I might require. metropolitan media snobbery about your background. The SNP totally deprecates the grotesque anti-Scottish, There was a slight problem: I had no idea what I anti-Glasgow, anti-working class caricature invoked by might require. I had visited this place only once before, some London-based newspapers. and I did not really appreciate what the job of being an Like many hon. Members, from all parts of the MP would entail. I had no idea how accessible this House, I have had the good fortune to attend events place would be, although everybody told me that it hosted by you for visiting dignitaries, including Scottish would be totally inaccessible. When people asked me, Church leaders, and your famous Burns nights, which “How’re you going to manage if you get elected?” I included your playing of the pipes. You have always would always reply, “Well, that’s not my problem. I’ll be been a model of good hospitality, an excellent host and an hon. Member like everyone else, and it’ll be up to the a source of advice to me and my SNP colleagues, and House authorities to solve that.” However, the House other Members. authorities had to have some reasonable expectations and some guidance on what I might need. So, plucking We are also grateful for your initiative in bringing something out of the air, I decided that it would be best together all the parties in the House urgently to deal for me to have an office that was near the Chamber, with allowances and expenses. Now that you have started near an accessible toilet and big enough for a wheelchair a genuinely all-party approach, we stand ready to play to get around. our part in the process, which you have initiated. You and a number of other Members have invoked And so it came to pass. When I arrived in the House Robert Burns. I, too, would like to finish with some as a newly elected MP on 6 May 1997, you had done words from him: your work. While my colleagues were being given the keys to their lockers in the corridor, I was given the keys “A prince can mak a belted knight, to an office. I am still in that office now, and I am not A marquis, duke, an’ a’ that; giving it up. It is near the Chamber and it is certainly big But an honest man’s abon his might, enough for my wheelchair. I have to say that it is the Gude faith, he maunna fa’ that! best office that any Back Bencher has in this place. I For a’ that, an’ a’ that, thank you from my heart, Mr. Speaker. Because of your Their dignities an’ a’ that; kind thoughts and thinking ahead, not only do I have a The pith o’ sense, an’ pride o’ worth, great office, but I have realised that sometimes being in Are higher rank than a’ that.” a wheelchair is not always a disadvantage. “A Man’s A Man For A’ That” is the appropriate verse That one story illustrates your foresight and to capture your life achievements, your attachment to thoughtfulness. Yourealised that action had to be taken. social justice and your respect to all, regardless of rank It is because of those qualities that you have made it or status. We wish you and Mary all the best in the possible for me to survive in this place, in what is an future. incredibly difficult environment for any disabled person to enter. 2.13 pm When I was appointed to the Chairmen’s Panel, Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): In paying nobody thought the extra challenges of trying to get me tribute to you, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell a story. I have on to the various daises in Westminster Hall and the not told it in public before, but it helps to illustrate your Committee Rooms would be a problem, or least you thoughtfulness and kindness, and may go some way certainly did not think so, Mr. Speaker. Again, a solution towards explaining your popularity among the Back was found. I know that your leadership has made it 333 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 334 more likely that people with disabilities will be elected examining the minutiae of every allowance and accounting to this place in future, because I know that it is important for every penny. In the end, our panel came up with to you. It was thanks to your intervention that addressing suggestions that we gave to the Members Estimate the under-representation of disabled people in Parliament Committee, some of which were accepted, some of was added to the remit of the Speaker’s Conference, of which were not. It has been suggested today that we which I am proud to be vice-chair. have ended up with a reasonable set of proposals. I hope that that goes some way to showing the respect We might now say that all that is history, but throughout in which you are held and why many of us on the Back that process, you never said anything publicly. That is Benches will miss you. I wish both you and Mary good the mark of you, the man—a man I admire greatly. luck in your retirement. Sometimes, I became frustrated with you, my dear friend, because you never once said anything to defend 2.18 pm yourself. I would say, “Oh, come on! Say something!”, but you would always say, “No, Kali, this is about the Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Much has already House. The House is the star of this show.” It was never been said about your dignity, warmth and courtesy in you, Mr. Speaker, and I admire you for that so much. this House and about your commitment to this House, You never allowed anyone to try to understand you—only Mr. Speaker. I pay tribute to you, Sir, for your expert, the House. careful and confidential advice to hon. Members outside this Chamber, in privately helping them to deal with the Here we are now, standing in judgment over you, and important political and personal problems that they I hope that everyone will say that you have not been inevitably face from time to time, both here and in their found wanting. We should all admire you very much for constituencies. You did that for me when I was resisting the work that you have done for the House. I will never the diversion of public funds to my then constituency find you wanting. You are indeed a great man, and a office, which was the start of my problems with the great and true friend. Conservative party, which ended up with my becoming an independent in the House. Your dignity, kindness 2.23 pm and understanding led me consistently to support you Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): I am and the office of the Speaker, which I think is the duty pleased to follow the hon. Member for Colne Valley of every hon. Member. I sincerely wish you and Mary a (Kali Mountford), and I wish her well personally for the wonderful, happy and healthy retirement—a retirement future. that you richly deserve and which you have earned by your dignity. Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to be able to say a few words in tribute to you today. You made some 2.19 pm important remarks to the House earlier, and I hope that the House will accept them with humility. The overriding Kali Mountford (Colne Valley) (Lab): Thank you, task for us all is now to strengthen the reputation of the Mr. Speaker—thank you, dear friend. I particularly House so that our democracy can go from strength to wanted to be here today. Having been here from the strength. That is what makes this country the great beginning—with some difficulty, I might add—I wanted country that it is. to see this particular part of your career all the way Part of that democracy involves having a press that is through to the end. among the most rigorously inquisitorial in the world. I wanted to be here because, right at the beginning of That is fine when it is fair and accurate, but much of the this part of your career, many people said that you were comment that has been written about you has been not the best Speaker for this House. If they have been unfair and inaccurate. Many people outside this place listening carefully today, they will have heard why we all see only what you do in the Chair of this Chamber, but, beg to differ. Having heard what everyone else has said, as Speaker of this House, you have to undertake an perhaps I should sit down, because everything has been immense task. You have to look after all 646 Members said. But I am a politician, and I want to put my two and—as if that were not a big enough job in itself, given penn’orth in. the individuals and personalities in this place—you also My two penn’orth goes a bit like this. When I first look after the many thousands of staff employed in the came here, you were a Deputy Speaker. Your kindness two Houses, as well as overseeing the many Committees, and friendship towards all of us endeared you to us the running of the House and the finances of the greatly, and, when Speaker Boothroyd said that she was House. standing down, I knew straight away that you were my A huge part of your job that perhaps not many first and automatic choice to be Speaker. I knew people see is the enormous amount of entertaining that automatically that the warmth that you had shown to you undertake in Speaker’s House: lunches in, lunches us while you were a Deputy Speaker would transfer into out, evenings in, evenings out, dinners in and dinners the post that you now hold. out. You always undertake that part of your job with Later, you asked me to be a member of the Advisory huge kindness and humility, and that is greatly appreciated Panel on Members’ Allowances, and you showed the by the many dignitaries who visit this place. wisdom that you have shown throughout in regard to I would like to leave the House with just one anecdote what that job became. The House should remember about your kindness. The year before last, you were that that wisdom entailed an openness that people kind enough to invite my 78-year-old father to the state perhaps did not see when they were writing their stories. opening of Parliament reception that you held. With You invited every Member of this House into your fear, I asked you whether you would be prepared to chambers. Some of their suggestions were novel, ranging have your photograph taken with him, in memory of from a proposal to abolish all allowances to the idea of your succeeding to the office of his uncle—my great 335 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 336

[Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] 2.29 pm Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): I appear to be uncle—a former Speaker of this House. You readily the last person to speak. I thank you very much for agreed. When it was time to leave, however, you were calling me, as I had forgotten to put my name down to busy talking to some very important people. My father speak in this debate. It was only when I was sitting here said, “Leave him. He’s busy”, but you turned to me and at the beginning of the tributes that I wondered whether said, “Ah, Geoffrey! How about that photograph?” I would have the nerve to stand up and ask to speak, After having talked to all those people at that reception, having gone against all the protocol that we are meant you remembered that one single detail. That is a mark to observe. However, I could not let this afternoon pass of your kindness and your complete selflessness. without making a few personal comments of my own. You have served this country and this House with I am glad that many hon. Members today have complete selflessness, never having regard to your own addressed head-on the issue of snobbery and the comments interests. May I thank you for the work that you have that have been made not only by the tabloid press but by done in this House, and wish you a long and happy Members of this House from time to time. I am glad retirement? In the modern jargon, I hope that you will that those issues have been addressed head-on, and that now be able to spend some quality time with your wife, we have talked about expenses and the missed opportunity Mary, and your son. last year. I am pleased that you tackled that subject in your opening remarks. 2.26 pm In questioning candidates at the Speaker’s hustings earlier this week, I commented that a substantial part of Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): Thank your success in winning the speakership and that big you for this opportunity to pay tribute to you as Speaker battle we had last time was that among the Speaker’s of the House of Commons, and thank you for the team, you had gone out of your way to be helpful, kind courtesy that you have shown me in the Chamber. and welcoming to new Members, particularly the great Much reference has rightly been made to the hospitality influx we had in 1997. That is not, of course, to suggest and kindness that you have shown to people in Speaker’s that it was a political ploy, although I would not dream House, and I can bear witness to that. One of my of suggesting that you are not a good politician, but fondest memories will always be of the opportunity that your approach came very naturally out of your kindness you gave me to propose the toast to the immortal and desire to help us. That sentiment is shared across memory at your Burns supper. the parties, as I noted during the hustings when Members You are the sixth Speaker I have known. The first, of different political parties passed comments to me when I was elected in 1970, was Dr. Horace King. You about your kindness across the board. That has been have been impartial and fair to all Members of the greatly appreciated by us all. House of Commons, from all parties. When problems I personally think it is a shame that Speakers feel that have arisen, you have shown common sense and judgment. they have to retreat from the Tea Rooms and the like I thank you for your service and I wish you and your once elected. I hope that that will not necessarily be the family well for many years to come. case in future, because that is good way for the Speaker to dispense advice, assistance and encouragement. You 2.27 pm have been able to do that through invitations to your house and as we have seen you round and about the Chamber. John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con): It is a pleasure for Others have talked about your start in the trade me to follow the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, union movement as a sheet metal worker. My personal East (Dr. Strang), whose pithy and gracious tribute will connection with you, Mr. Speaker, is that we both be appreciated in all parts of the House. worked for the same union, the National Union of Mr. Speaker, Sir, we did not get off to the best Public Employees. Youwere a full-time official, working possible start. I was one of the handful of Members of with low-paid public service workers, and you campaigned this House who voted against your election. Far from at that time for a minimum wage. Although you have holding that against me, however, you proceeded to had to be strictly politically neutral in the Chair, I am treat me with a decency and fairness for which I shall sure that it gave you great pleasure when we were able to always be grateful. In addition, I am especially appreciative pass that legislation for which you had campaigned in of the fact that, four years ago, just after the general your earlier life. election, you allowed me to join your panel of Committee I had not realised how many of us had been on the Chairmen, which I have found to be a hugely rewarding panel to select your whisky. When I went on it, I found experience. that another Derbyshire Member, the Opposition Chief As was observed earlier by the hon. Member for Whip was involved, so I thought that you were saying Moray (Angus Robertson), almost from day one, when something about our county and our enjoyment of a you took the Chair, you were subjected to relentless wee dram. My slight beef is that we were given only a snobbery and distain from a section of the tabloid press limited selection from which to choose; otherwise, we that seemed to think that the election of the son of a could easily have stayed there for another hour or two merchant seaman represented some kind of constitutional to make sure that we made the absolutely perfect choice outrage. Sir, that was always far more of a reflection on for you. I and clearly many other hon. Members have the tabloid press that it ever was on you. [HON.MEMBERS: greatly appreciated the honour of being allowed to “Hear, hear!”] In thanking you for your unfailing personal choose for you. kindness to me, to other Members throughout the Another position that I hold, somehow, slightly to House and to thousands of people beyond it, I wish you my amusement, arose when someone came up one day and Mary a long, happy and peaceful retirement. and asked me whether I would like to sit on the Speaker’s 337 Tribute to Mr. Speaker17 JUNE 2009 Tribute to Mr. Speaker 338 works of art committee. I knew nothing about it and I say “in retirement”, because we hope that we will still do not know how I was chosen. It was slightly disappointing see you and still be able to partake of your judgment when, having chosen our selection of Christmas cards and friendship over the years to come. and sent them to you, we found that some other ones had got through or that you had not gone along with Mr. Speaker: Before I put the motion, I am reminded our first choice. You have always been very welcoming of an incident involving a councillor who had served a and supportive. I am thinking particularly of the exhibition long time in the Cowlairs ward, which the Prime Minister to celebrate the anniversary of the suffragettes, which mentioned. We decided to give him a farewell dinner, at you were very encouraging about, saying that MPs which so many good things were said about him that he should take their constituents to look at the history of stood up and said, “I didn’t realise how much you liked how people, particularly women, struggled for the vote. me; and I think I will stay on.” [Laughter.] I can say You knew that this was part of our great history of that your Speaker is demob happy. I am very touched seeking democracy. by the tributes, particularly those to Mary and my That brings me back to the major point about your family. I now put the motion to the House. high regard for the House, for Back Benchers and for Question put and agreed to. our democratic processes. The greatest tribute we can pay to you and your work, Mr. Speaker, over your years Resolved, nemine contradicente, as Speaker is by resolving our current problems and That this House records its warm appreciation of the manner restoring the House and this part of our democratic in which the Right Honourable Michael Martin has occupied the system to the respect that it should have. If we can earn office of Speaker; expresses its thanks for the humanity and good that respect on your behalf, I believe that it will be a humour with which he has presided over the affairs of the House tribute to the work you have done. at a most challenging time; congratulates him on the kindness and openness he has shown to all Members and for establishing a Thank you hugely, Mr. Speaker, for the kindness you Speaker’s conference to examine engagement of Parliament with have shown to us all and for the work you have done an increasingly diverse society; and accordingly unites in sending over the years. I join everyone else in wishing you, Mary him its wishes for a long and happy retirement upon his departure and the family the best for the future. I am not going to from the Chair. 339 17 JUNE 2009 340

Business Rate Supplements Bill Business Rate Supplements Bill (Programme) (No. 3) Consideration of Lords amendments Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A), Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Before I That the following provisions shall apply to the Business Rate comment on matters of privilege, I would like to say a Supplements Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Orders of few words. Deputy Speakers may not take part in 12 January and 11 March (Business Rate Supplements Bill debates and have to be silent during them, but I wish to (Programme) and Business Rate Supplements Bill (Programme) abandon impartiality for a moment and say that Sylvia (No. 2)): Heal, Sir Michael Lord and I entirely endorse the Consideration of Lords Amendments sentiments expressed in the previous motion and on so 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall many sides of the House about Mr. Speaker. Words (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at such as “humanity”, “kindness” and “generosity” are the moment of interruption at this day’s sitting. ones that we closely associate with Speaker Martin Subsequent stages through our work with him over the years. We, too, wish 2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered him well. forthwith without any Question being put. I draw the House’s attention to the fact that privilege 3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords is involved in Lords amendments 1 to 8 and 10 to 14. If shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion the House agrees to any of those amendments, I shall one hour after their commencement.—(Mary Creagh.) ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal. Question agreed to. Clause 1

POWER TO IMPOSE A BRS

2.34 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Sarah McCarthy-Fry): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment 2 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 3 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 4 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 5 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 6 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 13 and Government motion to disagree. Lords amendment 14 and Government motion to disagree, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Bill was amended in the other place on Report, so a ballot is required before any business rate supplement can be levied or any existing business rate supplement can be varied. Due to amendments 8 and 9, which we will come on to, a ballot will not be required for the BRS that will form part of the Crossrail funding package. The Government recognise that the BRS will not work unless there is a strong and effective partnership between the levying authority and local businesses. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have made it clear that we expect levying authorities to engage with local businesses in the development of the BRS and to continue engaging with business once the project is under way. To provide further reassurance on this point, we committed on Report to the statutory guidance making it clear that levying authorities must consider how they will engage with businesses over and above the statutory consultation. The appropriate approach to engagement, however, will depend on the nature of the project that 341 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 342

BRS will be funding and the partnership arrangements Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am merely giving a possible that already exist between levying authorities and their example. In the broad sense, obviously we expect the local businesses. For that reason, we should leave levying BRS to be much wider and to cover a much longer authorities to work responsibly with their local businesses period. We are not necessarily talking about relative in developing BRS projects, rather than prescribing BIDs specific to a five-year period. We could be talking from Westminster how this should be done. about a period of between five and 30 years. We should trust our local authorities. During the Public Bill Committee evidence sessions, Councillor Mr. Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Knight, speaking on behalf of the Local Government The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Association, said: Neill) may have slightly misrepresented the position “The guarantee to local businesses that this power will not be taken by the then Minister, my right hon. Friend the abused is the guarantee that we are accountable to local communities. Member for Wentworth (John Healey), who strongly We have a direct interest in ensuring that local economies are advocated the policy that is implicit in the Bill as maintained and sustained...No authority will make a decision presented to and agreed by the House of Commons that has a detrimental effect on its local business community.”–– that there should be a ballot as long as expenditure is [Official Report, Business Rate Supplements Public Bill Committee, over 30 per cent., but that there should not be an 20 January 2009; c. 65-75. Q250] automatic ballot in other circumstances which could, as The Government’s position is that a ballot should be my hon. Friend the Minister has rightly said, involve held in those cases where the supplement will fund more unnecessary expenditure for relatively limited benefit. than one third of the estimated total cost of a project The distinction between BIDs and the BRS is that the and it ensures that where businesses will be contributing BRS is for much larger capital investment, and BIDs a relatively large proportion of that project, they will involve far more local schemes, which may well go on have the power vote on whether they make that for a long time. They are not necessarily limited to five contribution. If business votes against, the BRS will not years, as the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst happen. However, when businesses will contribute a suggested. They could last for 20 years as long as there smaller, although important, element towards the costs was support for them. of a project, a judgment should be made locally on whether a ballot is appropriate. That is proportionate Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As ever, my right hon. Friend’s and reasonable, given that BRS revenues will contribute considerable knowledge of local government shines through. the lion’s share of a project’s funding in some cases, but a relatively small proportion in others. As Lord Davies made clear, even if there is no ballot, levying authorities will not have a free rein to use the Requiring a ballot, even in cases in which the supplement BRS to fund their pet projects regardless of the views of is funding a relatively small proportion of a project, local businesses. They will be required to consult businesses potentially places undue emphasis on one aspect of a formally, and that consultation will be over and above project. For example, a levying authority might propose any preparatory dialogue in which they engage. to fund 10 per cent. of a project through a BRS. If the authority engaged with businesses at an early stage about the proposed project and business rate supplement Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am grateful and secured their support, and if that was then borne to the Minister for being so generous in giving way. out through consultation, it would make no logical What reassurance can she give business that such sense to require the authority to go through the process consultation will be any different from many other of holding a ballot. recent consultations, such as the one on post office closures? Is not the problem that, sadly, consultation It should be made clear that a ballot will not be a has become a somewhat devalued concept and that quick or cheap process. There should be no need for a people seek a greater safeguard? Would not a ballot ballot on a short-term business rate supplement that constitute such a safeguard? will fund a relatively small proportion of a project supported by business. The expense would be disproportionate, and in some cases simply could not be Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The hon. Gentleman can take justified. That could result in a totally artificial comfort from the evidence given by organisations such discouragement to levying authorities to use BRSs in as the Local Government Association. I think that the cases in which doing so would make a real and positive point was made then—it was certainly made in Committee difference to an area. by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth—that we have moved on from the old-fashioned view that Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I am local authorities just wanted to get money out of businesses interested in what the Minister is saying, but I am trying and were not prepared to consult them. I hope that the to reconcile the logic of her argument with that adopted hon. Gentleman is confident, on the basis of the local by the former Minister for Local Government, the right authorities known to him, that authorities nowadays hon. Member for Wentworth (John Healey) on Second work in partnership with business and are committed to Reading and in Committee. Later we shall deal with consultation of that kind. BRS-BIDs—I note that the right hon. Member for Businesses have a guarantee that the BRS can be used Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford) is present—and only on additional projects that are aimed at promoting I am happy with the Lords amendments in question, the economic development of the area. As such, BRSs but the earlier argument was that business improvement are limited for use on additional projects that will be districts were by and large short-term projects, and that relevant to local businesses. Businesses also have a the BRS frequently related to longer-term projects. It is guarantee on the maximum level of the supplement difficult to reconcile that argument with the Minister’s with the national upper limit of 2p per pound of rateable current argument. value, and a guarantee that properties with a rateable 343 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 344

[Sarah McCarthy-Fry] of the project, the authority should be required to set out the BRS prospectus whether or not it intends to value below £50,000 will be exempt from paying the hold a ballot, and—importantly—to explain why it supplement. It was right for us to include those safeguards. proposes that course of action. However, if a ballot is required in all cases, there will be I want to make it absolutely clear that the Government a danger that financial institutions and funding partners do not consider that a ballot should always be held. The will not be willing to commit funding when one element amendment requires authorities to state why they think of the funding package is uncertain owing to the need a ballot should, or should not, be held. It does not ask for a ballot. That risks destabilising such funding packages, them to justify their decision only if they decide not to and makes the BRS a less attractive option for projects hold a ballot; there is not, as such, a presumption of a funded from multiple sources. ballot. For instance, the BRS might be used to fund a small proportion of a project over a short period such 2.45 pm as six to 12 months. In such cases, the costs of running a ballot might be considered to be disproportionate, given Robert Neill: The Minister is being very generous. I the contribution that would be made by the supplement. hope that I shall not need to intervene again. If an authority wanted to hold a ballot in such cases, In the context of certainty, has the Minister seen a taxpayers, including local businesses, would justifiably copy of the letter from the director general of the be interested in its reasoning. Confederation of British Industry dated 12 June and The amendment provides important transparency in sent to her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? The the decision-making process relating to ballots. We think letter states that only mandatory ballots can give businesses it right for levying authorities to have discretion on the certainty that they desire. When will the Secretary of whether to hold a ballot when the supplement is expected State respond to that letter? to fund less than one third of the total cost of the project. However, we acknowledge that the decision-making Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I will ascertain from my right process must be transparent to those who will ultimately hon. Friend’s office when a response will be forthcoming, be liable for the supplement. The amendment will give but I am sure that today’s debate will constitute an businesses confidence that the decision-making process element of that response. on ballots will be made clear. It allows levying authorities We do not want to limit the BRS as really only an flexibility to do the right thing by their communities attractive option for use as the sole funding mechanism while ensuring that local businesses understand why the for a project. That limits levying authorities in terms of authority has taken a particular course of action. the amount of revenue they can raise, and means that the BRS cannot be used in conjunction with other For those reasons, I invite this House to disagree with funding streams to fund larger, more ambitious projects the Lords amendments, and commend the Government’s aimed at promoting local economies. amendment is lieu to the House. The effect will be particularly pronounced outside London. Properties in the London typically have higher Robert Neill: This is the first time that I have had the rateable values than those outside the capital. Under pleasure of doing business on local government issues the current proposals, properties in England with a with the Minister. As a member of a shadow team that rateable value of £50,000 will be exempt from paying has been in place a little longer than the Government the BRS. That threshold will exclude a higher proportion team, I welcome her to her new post, and look forward of properties from paying the supplement outside London to doing further business in the future. than in the capital, which means that outside London I am sorry that we will have to start on a note of there is an increased likelihood that the BRS will form disagreement, but such is life. The Minister has set out part of a wider funding package. Therefore, the difficulty much the same arguments in resisting the Lords created by the ballot in cases in which the supplement amendments as Government spokesmen used in the will form part of a wider funding package will be more other place. Their lordships were not convinced, and pronounced outside the capital. That makes the BRS with every respect to the Minister’s persuasive skills, I less attractive as a funding mechanism to promote have to say that I am not either. economic development outside London. The key issue is that if the BRS is to be successful, it In requiring a ballot in certain circumstances, the has to have wholehearted buy-in from, and the consent White Paper and the Bill go significantly further than of, the business community, otherwise it will not achieve either the Lyons review or the Communities and Local the stated objectives. It is well known—I repeat this Government Committee. Both recommended that the point merely for the record, without elaborating on decision to hold a ballot should be left to the levying it—that the official Opposition would not have introduced authority. a BRS at this time in an economic cycle, in the midst of For the reasons that I have just given, we do not think a recession; the only exception in our case was in that a ballot should be required in all cases. We consider relation to the Crossrail project. That point has been that it should be required only in cases in which the well rehearsed and well debated, but I mention it to set supplement will fund more than one third of the total the context. At a time when businesses are under more projected costs. However, because Members in both pressure than ever, the introduction of BRS—and without Houses have expressed real concern that there should be a ballot—would in our judgment be an unjustified and genuine engagement of local businesses before a supplement unduly onerous imposition on them. Businesses are is introduced, we propose that in cases in which a ballot already struggling; they are finding cash flow ever more is not required by virtue of the fact that the supplement difficult, and the costs of borrowing money to meet is expected to fund less than one third of the total cost cash flow and other requirements are ever higher. 345 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 346

It is also important to remember that their lordships Certainty certainly relates to funding streams, but rightly debated this change not in isolation, but in the there must also be certainty for the businesses that are context of BRS together with other potential burdens going to have to pay. The limit of 30 per cent. is in every on businesses. If we add in the cumulative burdens of a respect an arbitrary one, because a question not just of revaluation of the standard, ordinary business rate, the percentage that is funded, but of the amount that never mind the BRS, and the possibility of extra parking will fall to be paid by individual businesses. As has charges and other levies, we see that there is a danger of rightly been said, the nature of BRS schemes can vary. the straw breaking the camel’s back. That is why it Some will be large, and some small, but as the Minister seems to us that if there are to be BRS projects, it is only interestingly, and I suspect correctly, said, many involve right and fair that businesses should have a chance to significant capital expenditure. Even 20 per cent. of a vote on that; otherwise, they will be caught in the very large scheme is a significant potential burden on invidious position of having a form of taxation without businesses at a time when they can ill afford such cost representation. burdens. That point appears to be missed. We will in due course move on to discuss amendments I am sorry to have to say that the Government are in relation to what are called joint BRS-BID levies. The also unwilling to seek greater business involvement. On only reason why I mention that at this stage is to own to Report in this House, there was a great deal of discussion being a convert to BIDs. I was sceptical about them about the possibility not only of having a safeguard for when they were first introduced, but I am now persuaded businesses through the mandatory ballot, but of that they can be very successful. There is a key difference, mechanisms to ensure their greater participation in the however, in that for BIDs there is always a ballot of the development and ongoing oversight of BRS schemes. businesses that are going to participate. That is an Ministers—previous Ministers, I hasten to add—uttered important lock in terms of both accountability and warm words about that. They said they would look at it, improving the scheme. That is not just the view of but nothing has emerged. I hope it may yet do so, but politicians. When the Bill was previously before this that does not give us much confidence that the Minister’s House, the Committee conducted some useful pre-legislative words about wanting to encourage participation between scrutiny evidence sessions. The evidence from the various local government and business are actually going to be business organisations was overwhelmingly to the effect met with action. that, whatever their views about introducing a BRS That is a profoundly disappointing stance for the scheme at this stage in a recession, if there was to be Government to take, so it is important to set in place added value it was crucial that there should be a mandatory greater certainty for business than the Lyons review set ballot. out, precisely because of the potential impacts on business. That point was made by a number of highly experienced If a package had been developed that gave businesses Lords in the other place, and it has been reinforced by greater safeguards, perhaps their lordships would have the CBI very recently. I previously asked the Minister come to a different conclusion, but it has not been about a letter from Richard Lambert, the director general developed, and given the history of how this matter has of the CBI, to the new Secretary of State. In the context been debated—we will come on to another piece of of the amendments, Richard Lambert states: history in respect of a later group of amendments—I do not have confidence that warm words will be met “You will not be surprised to hear that the CBI welcomes these with action. changes. In 2007 the six hundred businesses that make up the CBI’s nine English regional councils agreed that CBI should Against that background, I am sorry to have to say support the principle of business rate supplements.” that we have to maintain that the Government have misjudged the mood and misread the evidence, and that They are not coming at that from a Conservative party if they disagree with the Lords they will make the Bill political point of view; I disagree with them on that worse than when it came back to this House from the particular issue of principle. The letter goes on to state, other place. That will be a missed opportunity and a however: great let-down, and it will send precisely the wrong “They felt that if there is a need for new local infrastructure signals to businesses in this country at the current time. businesses should be able to contribute, where they see real value. However, there was overwhelming belief that this would only be Mr. Raynsford: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. acceptable if businesses had the safeguard of a mandatory ballot. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill). This would ensure that supplements were affordable and only He referred in his opening remarks to his longevity in used for projects that would genuinely stimulate local economic his post in comparison with my hon. Friend the Minister, activity.” who has just assumed her post. I agree, and I wish him In relation to the Lords amendments that we are debating, even greater longevity in his current post in opposition. the letter states: He argued initially that my hon. Friend the Minister “In its amended form the Bill provides far more certainty for used the same arguments as the Government had used businesses about their long-term rate liabilities, whilst still enabling in the Lords and that the Lords had disagreed with local authorities and business to work together to fund and those arguments, and he offered that as a reason for deliver new infrastructure projects. In the current recessionary going along with the Lords’ position. What he failed to climate such improved certainty is absolutely essential. Government say was that the Minister deployed exactly the same now has a real opportunity to demonstrate its commitment to arguments as her colleagues in the Commons did when helping businesses by allowing the changes voted through in the this matter was debated here—and the Commons agreed House of Lords to remain a part of the Bill”. with the Government, not the Opposition. Thus, we I could not have put it any better. That is a persuasive have a classic situation where the Commons has taken case from the CBI, representing thousands of businesses, one view and the Lords has taken another, and I believe and it looks as if the Government are persistently that the elected Chamber should prevail in those turning a deaf ear to those arguments. circumstances. 347 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 348

3pm hugely important project. He recognises that and business The Opposition argue that the business rate supplement recognises that. That is why business is saying that in is an inappropriate tax to introduce at this time, except the case of Crossrail there should not be a ballot. It is in respect of Crossrail. We have heard before that not just business or people who recognise the importance classic illustration of the woolly thinking of the Opposition. of Crossrail who are saying that; the Conservative If ever there was a scheme that involved a considerable Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, is adamant that imposition on the business community, it is Crossrail, Crossrail should proceed with a BRS and without a which is a large and expensive—£16 billion—scheme. ballot. The BRS will make a significant contribution to that, albeit less than a third, and payments by business over Robert Neill: Will the right hon. Gentleman add, for many years will be involved. If the argument is that this the sake of completeness, that the same Mayor of is the wrong time for business to be making a contribution London says that although he thinks that that applies towards infrastructure investment, that argument certainly to Crossrail, he has no desire for it to apply anywhere applies to Crossrail. else? Of course, as the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst knows perfectly well, business is supportive Mr. Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman will know very of Crossrail, rightly believing that the scheme is good well that the Crossrail BRS levy will be in place for for London, for Britain and for business, because it will some 20 years. I think that Boris Johnson, however create the circumstances that will enable economic growth ambitious he may be—he probably has ambitions to to continue in London. That is why business is wholly take over the leadership of the Conservative party in supportive of Crossrail. Is it really credible to say that this place—will certainly not be in place for more than there are obvious benefits that business wants and 20 years as Mayor of London. There is no question of welcomes from infrastructure investment, such as Crossrail, any other BRS case coming forward in London, because here in London, but that no such other investment that the Crossrail BRS will take in full the maximum amount might be appropriate may be possible anywhere else in that is eligible to be taken from BRS under the legislation. the country? No wonder the Mayor is able to take that view in the case of Crossrail and London. The overriding logic is Robert Neill: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that what applies in the case of London should apply to giving way with his customary courtesy. How does he other parts of the country. reconcile the fact that the very same business organisations that support Crossrail also say that there should be a I have argued about the issue of certainty. I agree mandatory ballot anywhere else? It is because they entirely that certainty is important, but where the discussion know that Crossrail is a unique project that has been is about a relatively small contribution towards a major uniquely discussed among people in London. project that is being supported much more substantially by other bodies, it would be perverse if an uncertainty Mr. Raynsford: I must say to the hon. Gentleman that about the outcome of a business ballot could jeopardise there is a total inconsistency in arguing that Crossrail is the prospect of that investment taking place. So the a good thing and should be supported without a ballot—we argument about certainty cuts the other way in cases in must remember that the business community is saying which there is only a small contribution from the business that there should be no ballot on Crossrail, because it is community through BRS and the project is being a relatively small element in the total funding package—and overwhelmingly funded by other sources. That is the that that logic can apply in London, but cannot apply reason for saying that if a relatively small contribution anywhere else. There is no sound logical basis for that is involved, a ballot should be optional, rather than particular case. compulsory. There is no question of saying that there The logic behind having the BRS to support major should not be a ballot—if the local authority believes infrastructure lies in the economic development potential. that it is right to have a ballot, it should have the option That is why the Government have introduced this measure. to hold one—but it should not be obligatory. I believe It is clearly right that if local authorities believe there is that it is right to leave an element of discretion to local a case for a BRS, be it here in London or elsewhere, they government in this respect. should discuss the options with the business community We have heard a great deal from Opposition Members and proceed only where there is clear, strong evidence about giving more freedom to local government, but the that there are clear and definitive economic benefits. hon. Gentleman is now trying to support the other That is what I would expect to happen. The extent to place in imposing shackles on local government and not which the business community is supportive of Crossrail giving it the discretion in these circumstances to determine in London is, of course, very much the product of the whether a ballot should apply. He may or may not discussion that has occurred involving London’s business recall—I certainly do—the evidence given to the Committee organisations, such as London First. They have long by Local Government Association witnesses. They said campaigned for Crossrail and clearly take the view that that there should be no ballots in any circumstances. I it should be supported by a BRS. They recognise that do not agree with that view, and I believe that those far from improving prospects and certainty, a ballot witnesses were wrong on that, but I just remind him could be very damaging. about listening to local government and giving it appropriate The hon. Gentleman argued the case for certainty, discretion within reasonable bounds. I believe that the but I put it to him that the one thing that would be Bill does that, that this House was correct to support utterly damaging to Crossrail would be to say, at this the Bill in its original form and that the Members of the point in time, “Oh well, there has to be a ballot. We other place were wrong to make their substitutions with don’t know what its outcome will be.” That would lead their amendments, and I hope that this House will reject to inevitable uncertainty about the funding of this the Lords amendments. 349 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 350

Dan Rogerson: I am experiencing déjà vu, albeit that crucial. Therefore, it is strange to argue that in the case some of the faces have changed; I, of course, welcome of BRS, a ballot may be inappropriate in some the new Minister. Unlike the hon. Member for Bromley circumstances. and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), I have had the opportunity to do that, even if I have not done so formally, in Mr. Raynsford: In most BID cases—I cannot say all, Committee, where we have been discussing another because I am not sure of the precise figures—the BID measure that affects local government. levy is far and away the largest contributor to the BID project in the area. Voluntary contributions may be The Conservative party’s position, as set out by the made by some property owners or the local authority, hon. Gentleman, is that the BRS should be capable of but the BID levy is the largest single part. Obviously, if being applied only in London for Crossrail. Throughout the BRS is the largest single part of any scheme, there this debate, which is ongoing because a different conclusion will be a ballot. That is the distinction. It is only in cases was reached in another place, my party has said that it in which the BRS contribution is a relatively small part thinks that the BRS should be available to local authorities of the total that local authorities will have the discretion in other areas. However, given that these projects are about whether to hold a ballot. likely to come forward as newer ideas and newer schemes that have not had the same amount of debate, and Dan Rogerson: Clearly, that is the Government’s public and legislative scrutiny, as Crossrail, we feel that argument—that it is possible to have a threshold beyond to give business confidence that its contribution is taken which the impact on businesses is not sufficient to seriously a ballot is appropriate in all circumstances. necessitate a ballot. I do not agree. We could get into an argument about the right point for that threshold, but—as There are, thus, three positions on this matter—four we have argued throughout—a ballot sends a much if we take into account the position of the Local stronger message to business that the public sector, Government Association, as set out by my friend Councillor local government and the private sector must all engage Knight, with whom I agree on all sorts of other issues. with projects that will make a positive contribution to He does an excellent job as a local authority member on the future of an area. It is a clear and established London, but I disagree with him on this occasion. system, and business is used to the BID ballot. It is Those four positions are: that there should be a ballot in much more simple and straightforward to say that a no circumstances; that there should be no BRS beyond ballot would be held in all circumstances. For that London and in respect of Crossrail; the Government’s reason, I am pleased that the other place accepted this position that the BRS should be available but that a amendment and I hope that this House, having considered ballot is not necessary in all circumstances; and the the arguments expressed in Committee, which were ably Liberal Democrats’ view, which has been agreed in supplemented in the other place, will accept that it got another place, that a BRS is a useful tool and part of this wrong last time. We need to revisit this issue, and I the package needed to move towards economic recovery hope that the Government will be slightly more flexible in areas where infrastructure could play a big role in and agree that this scheme, which could make a real turning the economy round and that business would difference to communities around the country, should benefit from that, but that to demonstrate publicly that go forward on the basis of a ballot in all circumstances. business supports a project, a ballot is necessary. I agree with the conclusion reached in the other place, and Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank the hon. Members who indeed my colleague and I put those arguments in have contributed to this debate. I am sure that the hon. Committee—and many hon. Members demonstrated Members for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) their support on Report. and for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) will not be surprised to hear that they have not managed to persuade There are differences between the imposition of a me with their arguments. further supplementary rate on business and the current situation in which businesses do not, in normal 3.15 pm circumstances, get a say on the rate that is levied on The amendment concerns a discretionary power to them as a contribution to local services. We debated be used by levying authorities of the business rate that in Committee at some length. We are asking for a supplement, and levying authorities will be required to further levy on business to fund specific proposals, and carry out a cost-benefit analysis of any proposals and in those circumstances it is right to have a public to demonstrate the relationship between the costs and debate—the consultation to which the Minister referred. the benefits. We have already made the commitment It is clear from the information provided to us by that the statutory guidance will make clear the importance representative organisations that the consultation is not of levying authorities involving business in the development felt to be enough—the matter should not end there. and throughout the course of the project. We have discussed—and will again later—the BIDs The crux of the argument is whether it is right that system, which the right hon. Member for Greenwich business should have a veto on a project for which it is and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford) introduced in his time paying only a small percentage of the cost, but which in government. All hon. Members have been impressed has the support of the local authority and of others by its successes around the country. The evidence provided who are not in large businesses but will benefit from the to us before our detailed consideration in Committee of project. That is the heart of the issue. the success of BIDs and the contribution they make to The amendment in lieu goes a little further, and their communities was one of the best presentations I would allow levying authorities the flexibility to do the have seen. It is appropriate to have a ballot in all right thing. It would also enable local businesses to circumstances when a BID is proposed. Consultation understand why a local authority has chosen to hold a will have taken place and local businesses will have ballot when not required to do so—because of the given their agreement in principle, but a ballot is still 33 per cent. limit—or chosen not to do so. 351 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 352

I was a little confused by the contribution from the Cruddas, Jon Jackson, Glenda hon. Member for North Cornwall, especially his Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian disagreement with Councillor Knight, who gave evidence Cummings, John Johnson, rh Alan on behalf of the LGA. The LGA’s position was that Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. there should be no ballot under any circumstances, and Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen that the guarantee to local businesses that the power David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Kevan Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Lynne will not be abused is accountability to local communities. Davies, Mr. Dai Jowell, rh Tessa I thought that that was the Liberal Democrats’ position Davies, Mr. Quentin Joyce, Mr. Eric and that they wanted to devolve decision making to Denham, rh Mr. John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald local communities. It must be very confusing for voters Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Keeble, Ms Sally when they hear one thing espoused in the House of Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Commons and a completely different view— Dobson, rh Frank Keen, Ann Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kelly, rh Ruth Dan Rogerson: We want to see far greater tax-raising Doran, Mr. Frank Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq powers devolved to the local level, but this issue involves Dowd, Jim Kidney, Mr. David a specific levy on business rate payers, and in those Drew, Mr. David Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter circumstances there should be a ballot. It is essentially a Durkan, Mark Knight, rh Jim democratic measure, which we support at whatever Eagle, Angela Kumar, Dr. Ashok level. Eagle, Maria Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Efford, Clive Lammy, rh Mr. David Ellman, Mrs. Louise Laxton, Mr. Bob Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Nevertheless, the fact remains Engel, Natascha Lazarowicz, Mark that he takes a totally different view from a fellow Farrelly, Paul Lepper, David Liberal Democrat. Indeed, the LGA does not stop at Field, rh Mr. Frank Levitt, Tom not wanting a ballot. It also wants to raise the limit to Fisher, Mark Linton, Martin 4p and for local authorities to have a free hand to decide Fitzpatrick, Jim Lloyd, Tony what to spend the money on. The Select Committee Flello, Mr. Robert Love, Mr. Andrew also said that we should leave ballots to the discretion of Flint, rh Caroline Lucas, Ian local authorities. Flynn, Paul Mackinlay, Andrew Follett, Barbara MacShane, rh Mr. Denis The amendment in lieu creates the right balance. It Foster, Mr. Michael Mactaggart, Fiona would require a ballot if the contribution were more (Worcester) Malik, Mr. Shahid than 33.3 per cent., and introduce the additional safeguard Foster, Michael Jabez Mallaber, Judy that the local authority will have to set out in the (Hastings and Rye) Mann, John prospectus its reasons to hold, or not hold, a ballot. Gapes, Mike Marsden, Mr. Gordon Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords Gardiner, Barry Martlew, Mr. Eric amendment 1. George, rh Mr. Bruce McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Gerrard, Mr. Neil McCafferty, Chris The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 219. Gilroy, Linda McCarthy, Kerry Division No. 152] [3.18 pm Goodman, Helen McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Griffith, Nia McDonagh, Siobhain AYES Griffiths, Nigel McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Gwynne, Andrew McDonnell, John Abbott, Ms Diane Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Ainger, Nick Brown, Lyn Hall, Mr. Mike McGovern, Mr. Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hall, Patrick McGrady, Mr. Eddie Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Brown, Mr. Russell Hamilton, Mr. David McIsaac, Shona Allen, Mr. Graham Browne, rh Des Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McKechin, Ann Anderson, Mr. David Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr. David McKenna, Rosemary Anderson, Janet Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Armstrong, rh Hilary Burden, Richard Havard, Mr. Dai Meale, Mr. Alan Atkins, Charlotte Burnham, rh Andy Healey, rh John Merron, Gillian Bailey, Mr. Adrian Butler, Ms Dawn Heppell, Mr. John Michael, rh Alun Baird, Vera Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hesford, Stephen Miliband, rh David Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr. Alan Heyes, David Miller, Andrew Banks, Gordon Caton, Mr. Martin Hill, rh Keith Mitchell, Mr. Austin Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moffatt, Laura Battle, rh John Challen, Colin Hoey, Kate Mole, Chris Beckett, rh Margaret Chapman, Ben Hood, Mr. Jim Morgan, Julie Begg, Miss Anne Clapham, Mr. Michael Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Mountford, Kali Bell, Sir Stuart Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hope, Phil Mudie, Mr. George Benn, rh Hilary Clelland, Mr. David Hopkins, Kelvin Munn, Meg Benton, Mr. Joe Clwyd, rh Ann Howarth, rh Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Berry, Roger Coaker, Mr. Vernon Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Betts, Mr. Clive Coffey, Ann Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Norris, Dan Blackman, Liz Connarty, Michael Hughes, rh Beverley O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cooper, Rosie Humble, Mrs. Joan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Hutton, rh Mr. John Olner, Mr. Bill Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cousins, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Borrow, Mr. David S. Crausby, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Palmer, Dr. Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw Pearson, Ian 353 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 354

Plaskitt, Mr. James Stoate, Dr. Howard Gauke, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Pope, Mr. Greg Strang, rh Dr. Gavin George, Andrew McCrea, Dr. William Pound, Stephen Straw, rh Mr. Jack Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne Prentice, Mr. Gordon Stringer, Graham Goldsworthy, Julia McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Prescott, rh Mr. John Stuart, Ms Gisela Goodman, Mr. Paul Mercer, Patrick Prosser, Gwyn Tami, Mark Goodwill, Mr. Robert Miller, Mrs. Maria Purchase, Mr. Ken Taylor, David Gove, Michael Milton, Anne Rammell, Bill Thornberry, Emily Gray, Mr. James Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Green, Damian Moss, Mr. Malcolm Reed, Mr. Andy Tipping, Paddy Greening, Justine Murrison, Dr. Andrew Reed, Mr. Jamie Todd, Mr. Mark Greenway, Mr. John Neill, Robert Riordan, Mrs. Linda Touhig, rh Mr. Don Grieve, Mr. Dominic Newmark, Mr. Brooks Robertson, John Trickett, Jon Gummer, rh Mr. John O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Turner, Dr. Desmond Hague, rh Mr. William Oaten, Mr. Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Twigg, Derek Hammond, Mr. Philip Öpik, Lembit Roy, Mr. Frank Ussher, Kitty Hammond, Stephen Osborne, Mr. George Roy, Lindsay Walley, Joan Hancock, Mr. Mike Ottaway, Richard Ruane, Chris Waltho, Lynda Hands, Mr. Greg Paice, Mr. James Russell, Christine Ward, Claire Harper, Mr. Mark Paterson, Mr. Owen Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Watson, Mr. Tom Harris, Dr. Evan Penning, Mike Seabeck, Alison Whitehead, Dr. Alan Harvey, Nick Penrose, John Shaw, Jonathan Wicks, rh Malcolm Hayes, Mr. John Pickles, Mr. Eric Sheerman, Mr. Barry Williams, rh Mr. Alan Heald, Mr. Oliver Price, Adam Sheridan, Jim Wills, rh Mr. Michael Heath, Mr. David Prisk, Mr. Mark Simon, Mr. Siôn Wilson, Phil Heathcoat-Amory, rh Randall, Mr. John Skinner, Mr. Dennis Winnick, Mr. David Mr. David Redwood, rh Mr. John Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hemming, John Reid, Mr. Alan Smith, Ms Angela C. Wood, Mike Hendry, Charles Rennie, Willie (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Woolas, Mr. Phil Herbert, Nick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Smith, Geraldine Wright, Mr. Anthony Hoban, Mr. Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robertson, Hugh Snelgrove, Anne Wright, David Soulsby, Sir Peter Holloway, Mr. Adam Robertson, Mr. Laurence Wright, Dr. Tony Southworth, Helen Holmes, Paul Robinson, Mrs. Iris Wyatt, Derek Spellar, rh Mr. John Horam, Mr. John Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Spink, Bob Tellers for the Ayes: Horwood, Martin Rogerson, Dan Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Steve McCabe and Howard, rh Mr. Michael Rosindell, Andrew Stewart, Ian Mr. Dave Watts Howarth, David Ruffley, Mr. David Howell, John Russell, Bob NOES Huhne, Chris Sanders, Mr. Adrian Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Scott, Mr. Lee Afriyie, Adam Cameron, rh Mr. David Hunter, Mark Selous, Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hurd, Mr. Nick Shapps, Grant Alexander, Danny Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Jack, rh Mr. Michael Shepherd, Mr. Richard Amess, Mr. David Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Jackson, Mr. Stewart Simpson, David Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Carswell, Mr. Douglas Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Simpson, Mr. Keith Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cash, Mr. William Kawczynski, Daniel Smith, Sir Robert Bacon, Mr. Richard Chope, Mr. Christopher Keetch, Mr. Paul Soames, Mr. Nicholas Baker, Norman Clappison, Mr. James Key, Robert Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Baldry, Tony Clark, Greg Kirkbride, Miss Julie Spicer, Sir Michael Barker, Gregory Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spring, Mr. Richard Baron, Mr. John Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Kramer, Susan Stanley, rh Sir John Beith, rh Sir Alan Cormack, Sir Patrick Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Streeter, Mr. Gary Benyon, Mr. Richard Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Stuart, Mr. Graham Bercow, John Curry, rh Mr. David Lamb, Norman Swayne, Mr. Desmond Beresford, Sir Paul Davey, Mr. Edward Lancaster, Mr. Mark Swinson, Jo Binley, Mr. Brian Davies, David T.C. Laws, Mr. David Swire, Mr. Hugo Bone, Mr. Peter (Monmouth) Leigh, Mr. Edward Syms, Mr. Robert Boswell, Mr. Tim Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Tapsell, Sir Peter Bottomley, Peter Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lewis, Dr. Julian Teather, Sarah Brady, Mr. Graham Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Thurso, John Brazier, Mr. Julian Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lidington, Mr. David Timpson, Mr. Edward Breed, Mr. Colin Dorries, Nadine Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Tredinnick, David Brokenshire, James Duncan, Alan Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Turner, Mr. Andrew Brooke, Annette Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Loughton, Tim Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Browne, Mr. Jeremy Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Luff, Peter Vaizey, Mr. Edward Burns, Mr. Simon Evans, Mr. Nigel Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Burrowes, Mr. David Evennett, Mr. David Maclean, rh David Viggers, Sir Peter Burstow, Mr. Paul Fabricant, Michael Main, Anne Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Burt, Alistair Farron, Tim Malins, Mr. Humfrey Wallace, Mr. Ben Burt, Lorely Field, Mr. Mark Maples, Mr. John Waterson, Mr. Nigel Butterfill, Sir John Fraser, Christopher Mates, rh Mr. Michael Watkinson, Angela Cable, Dr. Vincent Gale, Mr. Roger Maude, rh Mr. Francis Webb, Steve 355 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 356

Willetts, Mr. David Winterton, Ann The amendments moved by the Government in the Williams, Mr. Roger Winterton, Sir Nicholas House of Lords on Report addressed the same broad Williams, Stephen Yeo, Mr. Tim issues as the amendments tabled by my right hon. Willis, Mr. Phil Young, rh Sir George Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and Willott, Jenny Younger-Ross, Richard Baroness Valentine. The amendments that we are Wilshire, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: considering make arrangements for a new type of BID, Wilson, Mr. Rob Bill Wiggin and to be known as a BRS-BID. It has that acronym to Wilson, Sammy Mr. Stephen Crabb distinguish it from the current BID arrangements. That new type of BID could be established in areas where Question accordingly agreed to. both a BID and BRS exist, and would allow for the Lords amendment 1 disagreed to. owners of property to be involved in BID arrangements. Lords amendments 2 to 6 disagreed to. It will be for those proposing BIDs, or existing BID companies, to decide whether they wish to involve property Clause 16 owners in their BID arrangements. Where they wish to, they can, but it will not be compulsory to do so. INTERACTION WITH BID LEVY The amendments enable revenues from property owners to be used as additional income for a BID project, or to Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House be used to offset the contributions of those rate payers agrees with Lords amendment 7. who are liable for both the BID levy and the BRS. The Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it amendments also offer flexibility; the revenue stream will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 10 from property owners could be used to fund a different and 15. project, quite separate from the BID project. Where BID companies or those proposing BIDs elect to involve Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The amendments in this group property owners, there must be a ballot of those potentially were Government amendments, tabled in the other liable for the levy. It will not be possible for a BRS-BID place. They relate to property owners in business to be established unless there has been a successful improvement districts in areas where a business rate ballot on the proposals. That mirrors the current supplement is in place. The amendments arose as a arrangements for BIDs. result of debates very early on in the life of the Bill, and I hope that hon. Members will find it useful if I take a In crafting the amendments, we have taken on board step back for a moment and recap on how the amendments many of the views expressed both in this House and the emerged. That will help to provide some context, so that other place, and the views expressed by those with an hon. Members can see the rationale for the approach intimate knowledge of the existing BID system. However, taken in the amendments. property owner involvement in BIDs is new territory, and it raises a number of complex and detailed issues One of the things that struck me as I familiarised that will need to be resolved before BRS-BIDs can myself with the issues raised by the Bill is the genuine come into being. The new schedule 2 contains a number cross-party support for business improvement districts, of powers that will allow the Government to include the and that has been reinforced this afternoon. There was detail on the BRS-BIDs in secondary legislation. The real concern that the introduction of the BRS might regulations will deal with issues such as who should be have a negative effect on the future viability of BIDs. I considered a property owner, how the rateable value of understand that one of the main concerns of BID non-domestic properties should be attributed to property practitioners and business supporters of BIDs is that if owners for the purposes of the double-lock ballot, and BID levy payers face a BRS on top of any existing levy, the detailed arrangements for ballots. We will consult rate payers may be inclined to vote against BID proposals on the detailed arrangements needed to enable BRS-BIDs when they come up for renewal. That is a particular to be put in place. issue in London, where, I gather, 14 of the 20 existing BIDs will come up for renewal ballots by 2012. One concern that was raised yesterday in the other As a way of addressing those concerns, my right hon. place was about the impact that the amendments could Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich have on billing authorities, which will play a key part in (Mr. Raynsford), whose expertise on such matters is BRS-BIDs. I can reassure the House that the consultation legendary, tabled amendments in Committee and on that we will carry out will be accompanied by an impact Report to give property owners more of a say in BIDs assessment, which will address the potential impacts on and to enable the contributions to a BID to be spread different sectors, including billing authorities. The between occupiers and owners. That could act as an consultation will give stakeholders the opportunity to effective offset for occupiers against their BRS liability. make their views known, including on the impact Although those amendments were withdrawn, they provided assessment, and we will consider carefully all responses the opportunity for the House to have a meaningful before finalising the regulations that are needed before debate on the issue, and the previous Minister for Local BRS-BIDs can come into operation. Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for I should clarify one specific point. I have already said Wentworth (John Healey), agreed to discuss the matter that the amendments can apply only in those areas further with interested parties. Baroness Valentine tabled where a BRS is in place. There has been a debate in the amendments on the same issue in Grand Committee in other place about whether it would be possible to the other place on 18 May. The purpose of those extend the provisions to BIDs in all areas. I understand amendments was to enable BID proposers or companies the argument that, if these amendments are good enough to decide whether property owners should be involved for BRS areas, they should be good enough for areas in, and have a chance to vote on, BID proposals for an where a BRS is not in place. It may be helpful if I clarify area. the position. 357 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 358

We have pursued the matter with the House authorities, due to be brought into existence in the foreseeable who have confirmed that it would not be possible to future, and where a ballot could well have been lost include amendments to the Bill to deal with the inclusion because those paying the BRS levy might have decided of property owners in BIDs outside a BRS area. The that it would not be fair for them also to have to pay an issue centres on whether an amendment would be relevant. additional levy to support the BID. The Bill has a single purpose, which is to introduce the I shall not go over the history. My hon. Friend the BRS scheme. The Bill refers to BIDs, but only to the Minister explained that it was a subject of considerable extent that they are affected by the introduction of debate in the House earlier this year when we first BRS. However, any stand-alone amendments to the considered the Bill. The amendment introduced in the BIDs regime, unconnected to the introduction of BRS, Lords goes further than the one that I moved, and I would not be considered relevant. welcome the way in which that has been improved. The principle behind the amendments was warmly Specifically, it tackles the issue of areas where BIDs are welcomed by the other place and was widely supported proposed but not yet in existence, whereas my amendment by the House during the earlier stages of the Bill. The was limited to areas where BIDs were in existence. I Government listened to the representations that were recognise that that was a defect, which the hon. Member made, both from within Parliament and from outside, for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) highlighted in the and agreed with them. That is why we introduced the debate in the House. provisions in the other place. Taking that into account, I acknowledged that at the time so I am delighted and with the explanation that I have given, I invite the that the Government have found a formulation that House to agree to the amendments. allows the new provision to cover areas where BIDs are proposed but not yet in existence. It also includes provision Robert Neill: I am glad to say that on this occasion, to reassure tenants that the owner levy will not be there is a degree of consensus. As those who served on passed on to them through rent. Again, that was a cause the Bill Committee know, the Opposition parties were of some concern among BID levy payers—that the very interested in the proposal from the right hon. landowner would try to pass on the full cost of the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), landowner levy. and I am delighted to see that it has broadly appeared in the amendments. That is progress. 3.45 pm The Minister is right to say that some detail may yet The Government have addressed the issue in a manner need to be bottomed out, but the concept seems to deal that has improved the amendment, which we debated a with a potential anomaly. I wish the Government had while ago in this House, and I very much welcome what been persuaded of the fact that the benefits of BIDs, is now in the Bill. I add one caveat only, on an issue to which I endorse, include a ballot in all cases. It is ironic which my hon. Friend the Minister referred: the need at that this set of amendments includes a compulsory some stage to consider extending the provision to cover ballot. I wish that were a general application. It is a step those areas where there is not a BRS, but where BIDs in the right direction. exist. The principle of landowners contributing to BIDs I hope that when the Minister replies, she may be able has been an issue since BIDs were introduced in the to tell us the time frame for the consultation and how early years of this century. We had a debate at the time, we can ensure the maximum ability to make changes in and some parties strongly advocated the adoption of the regulations that will set out the guidelines, and so the American system, whereby the property owner rather on. I am conscious that although their lordships welcomed than the tenant pays the levy. I, as the then Minister, the proposals, they expressed some concern about the believed that creating the register of landowners would size and complexity of very late amendments to the Bill. have caused substantial upheaval and set back the process, That is no fault of the right hon. Gentleman, who has and could have resulted in many abortive costs arising been a proponent of BIDs, but it made for some interesting in areas where the register had to be compiled despite overnight reading of the Official Report of the other there being no proposal for a BID. place. Given those circumstances, it seems sensible to proceed on the basis of the existing rating system in this country, I hope the Minister will take on board the comment where the tenant pays the business rate but owners are that if we are to get it right, we must have the ability to encouraged to make voluntary contributions. Some have revisit matters of detail that may not yet have been but others have not, and there is a natural worry about completed. I welcome the overall attempt to plug what freeloading, whereby substantial property owners in a might otherwise have been a weakness in the legislation. particular area get the benefit of improvements that a We support the amendments. BID brings but do not contribute towards it. The issue still exists, and, although I fully understand my hon. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I now have to announce the Friend’s reasons why, within the remit of the Bill, it was result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On not possible to extend the provision before us to other the motion relating to external service, the Ayes were BID areas, the problem will need to be considered 305 and the Noes were 160, so the Question was agreed to. again. I hope that the Government will, in due course, [The Division list is published at the end of today’s find a suitable legislative vehicle to allow the same debates.] formulation to be applied more generally to all BIDs. With that one caveat, I greatly welcome the amendment. Mr. Raynsford: I congratulate the Government on It has made an important improvement to the legislation, agreeing in another place this series of amendments, and it will enable BIDs to continue successfully in many which provide a satisfactory and elegant solution to a areas where they have made a big impact and whose real problem, which was the potential adverse impact of existence might otherwise be threatened by the introduction BRS on BIDs in areas where BIDs are in existence or of BRS. 359 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 360

Dan Rogerson: It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. BRS for the Crossrail project from the requirement for Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford). a ballot. The amendment originally accepted by the He has pursued the issue keenly throughout the Bill’s other place in its Grand Committee was tabled by passage through both Houses, and there is an element Baroness Valentine. In response to the amendment, of unfinished business in it for him, given that he Baroness Andrews said, on behalf of the Government: presided over the introduction of BIDs and, along with “I have listened to the repeated calls in your Lordships’ House many others, has been an advocate of them during our and during the passage of the Bill in another place for an deliberations. He was keen to ensure that the proposed exemption for Crossrail. I certainly agree with the argument that changes—the involvement of a BRS system, too—would it brings major benefits across the capital, commands wide support, have a positive rather than negative impact on BID and is already underpinned by an Act of Parliament. Therefore, areas, because there was a danger of conflict between with the agreement of the Committee, I would like to accept the the two systems. noble Baroness’s Amendment”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 18 May 2009; Vol. 710, c. GC532.] The previous two contributors discussed anomalies and particular situations, and, as the right hon. Gentleman On Report, the Government tabled further amendments said, we are not quite there yet. It would have been good to adjust the original one; essentially, they were technical to tidy up the situation in which a BRS is not imposed, amendments to bring the new provisions into line with but, despite his attempts in Committee to do all sorts of the rest of the Bill and remove the scope for legal things, such as amend the title of the Bill, which was uncertainty. The amendments achieved the objective necessary at the time, it has not quite been possible to accepted at the Grand Committee. At the same time, resolve that particular situation. the Government also took the opportunity to extend I also note that the right hon. Gentleman was slightly the exemption from the ballot requirement for the proposed more supportive of the work that their lordships put Crossrail BRS to cover the additionality requirement in into this element of the Bill than he was of their work clause 3 of the Bill, rather than leaving that provision to on the previous one, but I leave that to the House to be made later on in regulations, as the Government had decide. The House has obviously had the opportunity indicated was their intention. Amendment 8 therefore to vote again on the issue, but I merely note in passing exempts the GLA’s proposed BRS for Crossrail from how I think that they were right on the previous issue the requirement for a ballot and the need to meet the and right on this one. additionality test in the Bill. I am pleased to see that the hon. Member for Bromley The Government’s amendments were unanimously and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), in his usual friendly and supported by all sides in the other place. The amendments positive way, seeks to contribute to resolving the issue provide important protection to the progress of the before us, although it presents him with a slight challenge, Crossrail project and crystallise the position on ballots given that he is technically approving the imposition of for the BRS that will make up an important element of BRS in other parts of the country but his party has said the Crossrail funding package and enable the Government that it does not do so. With that comment set aside, to clarify the position on additionality earlier than however, we can all support the fact that the provision would have been the case had the exemption been set presents a solution—albeit slightly inelegant—to a problem out in regulations. For all those reasons, I invite the and takes us further forward. We will all be watching House to agree to the amendments. keenly to see how BID areas make progress and, I hope, do even more to benefit their local communities and the business communities within them. Robert Neill: This is one issue on which there was unanimity during our previous considerations; everybody Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I just want to respond quickly wanted to make it clear that they supported Crossrail to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert and the BRS as part of a settled package for the Neill), who asked when we would consult on regulations. Crossrail funding mechanism. The amendments remove As I explained, these are complex issues but we hope to an ambiguity that none of us wants, so one need not say begin consultation in the autumn. I thank the hon. much more about the matter, save that we support the Gentleman and the hon. Member for North Cornwall amendments. (Dan Rogerson) for their support. Lords amendment 7 agreed to, with Commons privileges Dan Rogerson: I echo the comments just made by the waived. hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill). During the passage of the Bill, different parties sought in different ways to propose amendments, to Clause 27 highlight the fact that we felt that Crossrail was a scheme of a particular nature and that it had had a SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PROVISION great deal of attention in the past. The debate on ballots and so on should not apply to Crossrail in the same Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House way, and the distinction is helpful. I remain sad, of agrees with Lords amendment 8. course, that the House did not vote to retain the amendments in another place about ballots more generally, Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient but I am happy to accept these amendments. to discuss Lords amendment 9. Lords amendment 8 agreed to, with Commons privileges waived. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: These amendments were brought forward and accepted by the other place to exempt, in Lords amendments 9 and 10 agreed to, one with Commons all circumstances, the Greater London authority’s proposed privileges waived. 361 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 362

Clause 29 Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): This is the same standard argument that has been given to us during our lengthy discussions on the Bill—that there is EGULATIONS ETC. R no possibility of not giving retrospective assessment because everybody else would want it and it would Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House break a fundamental principle. However, regulation disagrees with Lords amendment 11. 14(6) of the Non-Domestic Rating (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2005 provides that Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient where reassessment is the responsibility of the Valuation to discuss Lords amendment 12, and Government motion Office Agency, not the result of a mistake or a fiddle on to disagree. the part of the hereditament owner, there is no need for a retrospective revaluation. If that principle had been Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As right hon. and hon. Members adopted under the Bill, as it should have been, we could are aware, Lords amendments 11 and 12 are intended to have avoided all this trouble. What my hon. Friend is prevent the BRS from being levied retrospectively as a saying is wrong in respect of assessments such as those result of a change in the rating list. in the ports, which were done as the responsibility of Before I move on to the substance of the amendments the VOA, not the hereditament owner. and the background to them, I want to emphasise some key points about the Bill and what it provides for. The Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I appreciate the point that my first BRS cannot be levied until 1 April 2010; nobody hon. Friend is making. However, the special provision can have any liability for a BRS in respect of any day in regulation 14(6) does not apply where a property is earlier than that; while we know that the Greater London missed off the list altogether on the day that it is authority intends to levy a BRS for the Crossrail project, compiled, as there is a difference between a ratepayer as was discussed in the other place, other levying authorities paying rates where the rateable value has been incorrectly do not have plans to levy a BRS but have welcomed the assessed by the VOA and a ratepayer not paying rates power to do so in the future; the £50,000 rateable value on a property at all. threshold for liability to a BRS in England will exclude most small businesses; while the Bill builds on the rating Mr. Mitchell: That surely cannot be true, because the system, which I will come to, it does not change anything principle of individual assessment began in 2005 when, about the general rating system or have any affect on the VOA tells us, it assessed the rateable value of each liability for non-domestic rates, whether before or after port operator on the advice that it got from the port 1 April 2010; the BRS will be raised and retained owner. There was already a rating, and indeed the locally, for projects which the levying authority, working operators were paying rates through the cumulo rental in partnership with business, considers will promote the system. economic development of its area; and no BRS revenues will be coming to central Government, nor can they be Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I have to beg to disagree with used by the levying authority to support existing my hon. Friend, because the individual properties were expenditure, as BRS can only be levied to support new, not on the list on the relevant date in 2005. That is why additional, spending. regulation 14(6) does not apply. The BRS builds on the non-domestic rating system. Backdating rating assessments is not new but an In particular, liability to BRS and the level of liability in established feature of the business rates system. It operated respect of any given property will be based on the rating in the case of the list that we are considering not only list entry for that property. Rating lists can be changed from 2005 onwards but from 2000 and before. by valuation officers to ensure accuracy and, with that, the accuracy of rates liability. Sometimes this can lead to backdated increases in rates liability; sometimes it 4pm can lead to backdated decreases and, therefore, refunds. Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I apologise for There is the possibility of backdated increases in rateable intervening, but I have to be in Westminster Hall for an value causing higher BRS bills than businesses were Adjournment debate shortly. Does my hon. Friend not anticipating, but the practicalities involved in ascertaining appreciate that the crux of the argument, and the the need for changes to a rating list and then establishing reason the move has caused so much anger in certain what change is required mean that backdating is an port areas, is that businesses had already paid their rates essential part of the normal functioning of the system. to the operators in the cumulo system? The problem is Right hon. and hon. Members know that, over recent not that they have not paid. It is that they have already months, the issue of backdated rates liability has been paid, and they are being asked to pay double taxation. highlighted by the situation in a number of ports. However, the Bill relates to the BRS, and the amendments Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank my hon. Friend for her would not affect the situation in ports. As was emphasised intervention. We are moving off business rate supplements by Lord Davies in another place, the issue of ports does slightly, but I shall respond to her point. In the cases not affect the principle. It would be unfair to those that we have examined, it is difficult to prove contractually businesses that have been paying the correct BRS if that that has been the case. If she knows of specific others were paying a smaller bill simply because an instances that she can show us, I invite her to do that so inaccuracy on the rating list meant that they were not that we can examine them. However, the arrangement is asked to pay the correct supplement. It is also worth a contractual obligation between the port operator and reiterating that BRS bills, like rates bills, can go down as port businesses. It is difficult to disentangle the figures, a result of a change to the rating list in certain circumstances; and the only example that we have been given is very that is a normal function of the system. unclear. 363 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 364

Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): Will my Mr. Mitchell: There is a vital principle for those of us hon. Friend give way on that point? who represent ports: businesses should not wantonly be pushed into insolvency or shedding labour by something Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. May I say to the hon. that does not need to be done in the first place. Gentleman that we are getting rather sidetracked away from the amendment that we are discussing? We now ought to come back to the amendment that the House Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can only reiterate that the is examining. amendments that we are debating will have no effect on the current position in the ports. I am sure that there Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. will be ample opportunity on other occasions to discuss On Lords amendments 11 and 12, I commend the and debate that further. quality of the debate in the other place. Forceful arguments Having explained why we cannot agree to the were made as to why backdated rating list changes amendments, I must remind hon. Members that the should not apply in relation to BRS liability. Lord Bates Speaker has designated the amendments involving privilege. set out his view that the amendments If hon. Members vote to overturn amendments 11 and “are designed to provide an important guarantee to avoid retrospection 12, the reason for the disagreement must, in accordance in business rate supplements taxation”.—[Official Report, House with the House’s practice, involve privilege. That is in of Lords, 9 June 2009; Vol. 711, c. 550.] no way intended to criticise the quality of debate on He felt strongly about that matter. The noble Lords those matters in the other place. I have commended Tope, Williamson and Brooke and Earl Attlee and Earl that, and do so again now. Cathcart all spoke eloquently and persuasively in his support. However, I reiterate that the Bill relates to the I hope that I have tackled the issues that were raised BRS. For the reasons that I have already mentioned, and demonstrated why I disagree with the amendments which were set out by Lord Davies in another place, I on principle. I hope that the House will reject amendments do not agree with principle of the guarantee described 11 and 12. by Lord Bates. It is right and fair that the system that applies to Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I have rating should apply to the BRS. Maintaining an accurate some sympathy for the Under-Secretary—up to a point. rating list necessarily involves an element of backdating, The only reason for having any sympathy for her is that as properties must be valued when they are complete or she did not start the ludicrous matter, and she is the nearly complete to ensure proper valuation. We cannot umpteenth Minister to walk into it. However, I regret to have a system in which a person avoids paying rates or say that those who drafted her response and produced the BRS for a time, whereas someone else in analogous one of the most mealy-mouthed, legalistic and technocratic circumstances cannot, because of the coincidence of excuses I have ever heard in the Chamber served her ill. when a valuation can be undertaken in practice. That The Government are shamed by their attitude. I was not would be unfair and irresponsible, so it is right that surprised that the Government Whip was anxious to changes to rating lists take effect from the date of ensure that the debate was kept carefully away from the the event giving rise to the change. The provisions in the constituency issue that a Labour Back Bencher tried to Bill were crafted to be entirely consistent with the raise. The Government are worried because they have national business rate system. That ensures that liability been crucified in every debate on the matter. They have to business rate supplements will be fair to all. no answer, and the Under-Secretary is stuck in that position. Mr. Austin Mitchell: Will my hon. Friend give way? There is a matter of principle and the issue is important Sarah McCarthy-Fry: One more time. because, as the Under-Secretary said, the normal business rating system must apply to business rate supplements. I Mr. Mitchell: I am grateful. My hon. Friend says that do not disagree with that—it is perfectly logical. My it would be unfair if retrospective rates were not levied. noble Friend Lord Bates tabled the amendment because To whom would it be unfair? A whole new class of the safeguards against potential injustice in the normal businesses, the port operators, is being brought into the business rating system are shown not always to work business rate separate assessment system. As my hon. adequately. The ports issue is therefore germane, and Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) there was a full debate on it in the other place. It is an has pointed out, they were already paying business rates example of how injustice can occur in the current through the cumulo system, and now they are going to circumstances and of the inadequate remedies that exist be rateable under a different system. That should have to resolve it. We therefore thought that it was right to been done in 2005, and the VOA says that it was. Why make provision in primary legislation to ensure that were the valuations reassessed in 2008 and made such injustice is not imported into the regime under retrospective? To whom would not doing so be unfair? Bill. That is an important principle. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not want to dwell on the The amendment that Lord Bates tabled would ensure specific issue of ports, and I am sure that there will be that there is no retrospection when the BRS payer has opportunities to debate it at other times. We are considering committed no fault. That is a key issue, which should the principle of backdating in the business rating and apply across the board. An injustice has been done to valuation system, and the dates on which it comes into taxpayers in the ports through no fault of theirs, but effect. The principle is that changes to rating lists take through the incompetence of the Valuation Office Agency effect from the date of the event giving rise to the in not updating the list in a timely manner, not giving change. We therefore propose that the House reject proper notice, not ensuring proper consultation and not Lords amendments 11 and 12 in order to reinstate the providing an impact assessment. The Bill could permit right and fair position of consistency with the business an injustice to happen in the BRS model, too. The rate system generally. amendment was tabled to try to prevent that. 365 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 366

Mr. Cawsey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for which means that companies become balance-sheet his support on the matter. If we were to try to summarise insolvent by a substantial sum. That affects their ability the Government’s position, does he agree that they to raise finance and the cost of finance, and puts them seem to be saying that they cannot change the overall in genuine difficultly. system just because there are problems in the ports, so they will reject the amendment and treat other people Mr. Frank Field: The hon. Gentleman is being unfair equally unfairly at some point in future? to Pontius Pilate. Pilate wanted to release Jesus, but we have seen no signs from those on the Treasury Bench Robert Neill: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman that they wish to release our constituents from an puts the case very well. I wish that we had a specific unfair tax. legislative peg on which to hang the issue of ports. Given that we cannot do that, we can at least ensure Robert Neill: The right hon. Gentleman is that no such injustice is done elsewhere. In theory, there characteristically perceptive and well informed, and he could be a BRS scheme in the port areas—on Humberside is right. I am sorry if I am being less combative than I or in Liverpool—and I would not want the same injustice sometimes am—I thought that I was being reasonably to occur. vigorous—but the reason we regard Lords amendment 11 as so important is because of a desire to prevent a Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I apologise for great injustice and because the feeling is so strong. The missing the opening speeches. As I understand it, the Government’s deafness is such that it makes those on hon. Gentleman is going to support Lords amendment 11. the Guardian Council in Tehran look like flexible and I commend him for that, because on this issue we have open-minded people. People are shouting and hollering had huge difficulties in getting the official Opposition to try to bring an injustice to the Government’s attention, off the fence. For them to do so must now show that and the Government just say, “Sorry, nothing to do there is something of value at stake. with us.” At the end of the day, that is just unfair. That is why it is right that Lords amendment 11 Robert Neill: I know that the right hon. Gentleman is should be maintained. It is also why the amendment in a difficult situation, as candidates for anything sometimes was passed in the other place not by a small margin, but are, but with every respect to him, he will know perfectly by a majority of 60. In terms of votes in the other place, well—I mean this in a good-natured way—that we did that is a very significant margin indeed. It is interesting not vote against a previous measure because it would that the record of proceedings and votes in the other have removed a measure of protection. Those of us who place shows that a number of Labour peers who supported genuinely feel that the Government have been led into other aspects of the Bill felt unable to vote in the Lobby error now have an opportunity to agree on some common against Lords amendment 11. They knew that justice ground. I stress that the problem did not start as the was on the side of the amendment. I wish that that fault of a Minister; it started with the incompetence of message would get through to the Government down the Valuation Office Agency. Frankly, it is the people in here. the VOA who should ultimately be held to account, but I am afraid that it might be too late by the time Mr. Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for someone is in a position to do so. giving way, particularly now that he is getting into his stride and is in his normal, more combative form. We Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): My hon. must put on record the sheer unfairness of the situation. Friend is making his speech in his usual highly articulate If one of the tenants goes bust, as some already have, way, but he is being too kind to the Government, the port owners, many of whom are in direct competition although not to the Minister. The problem is certainly with their tenants, do not then have to pick up an empty not her fault: she is new. Is it not the case that, having property rates bill. It is unbelievable. paid a rebate to the port employers, the Department’s Treasury colleagues are now saying, “You cannot let 4.15 pm these port rating people”—the unfortunate small businesses in ports, many of which are competing with their Robert Neill: It is a most perverse situation. Ministers landlords—“off the hook”? in the Department for Communities and Local Government do not seem to be able to grasp the fact that landlords Robert Neill: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That can also be competitors, and that that creates a perverse is why it is so important to entrench the proposal, to incentive. The Minister referred to this as basic rating prevent further injustice in future. Frankly, the Government finance under the normal system. Well, if this is the are being duplicitous in the way that the system is being normal system, it is wrong, and we need to ensure that it organised. People are being squeezed, and we have had is not rolled out into other areas as an extension of the a Pontius Pilate-like attitude from successive Ministers, rating system. My hon. Friend is right, as he always is who come along, wring their hands and say, “This is all on these matters. very sad, but that’s the normal system and there’s really It cannot be right that people who might be subject to nothing we can do about it. We’d like to, but I’m sorry, a BRS should be liable to the same injustice that has we can’t help.” At the same time, businesses are already been identified in relation to a number of firms in going under and jobs are being lost. However, nobody Humberside. An example is Freshney Cargo Services in the Department seems to grasp the fact that the Ltd, which has had a 1,700 per cent. increase in its proposed remedy of the eight-year payment period, rateable value. It is now going to have to pay bills which in theory could, I suppose, be imported if injustice backdated a number of years that are significantly more occurred in respect of the BRS, does not get round the than its annual turnover, never mind its profits. It is problem that the debt has to be booked in the first year, really going to struggle. 367 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 368

[Robert Neill] The Bill comes at a time when ports are already under pressure from the fall in freight rates. Businesses are This is happening to honest, reputable firms that therefore already being heavily squeezed. Business in would pay a BRS honestly if the situation arose, and the ports on what are sometimes called the near sea that pay their rates honestly. They have not misled routes is particularly threatened because major concerns anyone, and they are not responsible for any fault or such as DFDS Seaways have indicated that, unless there concealment, yet they are being penalised. The kind of is a change to these measures, they will reconsider their redress that they are being given—which might be offered significant investment in the UK. That would be a under a BRS scheme, I suppose—is wholly inadequate, massive blow to economies, including to the partnership because it leaves them potentially balance sheet insolvent between local authorities and business in areas that are and with real burdens placed on them. These firms are trying to regenerate. It is entirely plausible that operations important. The one that I have mentioned employs would be moved to Rotterdam or Antwerp and the about 40 staff directly, and has about 100 people dependent goods simply brought in by road thereafter. The on it. transhipments would happen elsewhere. That would It is ironic that the Bill is being presented as a means ironically benefit local authorities and businesses in of improving economic regeneration and business activity. continental Europe and significantly damage businesses It is also ironic that responsibility for the Bill lies not and the local authorities that work with them in our only with the Under-Secretary of State for Communities port towns. and Local Government, the hon. Member for Portsmouth, That is why this issue is so important and why we North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) but with the Minister for make no apology for returning to it again and again. It Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination is also, I suspect, why the amendment was so closely whose double-hatted job involves her working not only and well argued in the other place and carried by such a in the Department for Communities and Local Government large majority. I thus genuinely appeal to the Minister but in the Department for Business, Innovation and at this late stage in the game to rip up her departmental Skills. It is extraordinary that a lady who is responsible brief, stand back and look at the issue as a matter of for economic development should be presiding over a fairness and justice. Compared with the sums of money Bill that will shut down businesses. As we do not seem pumped out into some sectors, scrapping the unfair to be getting much response from her boss in the retrospective element would be nothing at all and it Department for Communities and Local Government, would help to create the degree of certainty that was I would have hoped that her other boss, in the Department mentioned in our debate on earlier amendments. The for Business, Innovation and Skills, might have come up Minister should do that to provide a proper basis for with an alternative solution. This is simply not joined-up the partnership working between local authorities and government. It is ironic that that same Minister is business that she identified as central to the Bill. presiding over a measure that is going to put firms out Let me end on a final irony. A number of local of business. That just does not make sense, and to authorities want to be sympathetic and have tried to refuse to listen to the very reasoned debate in their hold back from collecting the business rate that they are lordships’ House potentially extends the anomaly and obliged to collect, but they are now being pressured by injustice elsewhere. the same Government to start enforcement and start With respect, the suggestion that the amendment collecting. I know that some deals are being done, but would set a dangerous precedent is wrong. A fair point that is a drop in the ocean, as the vast majority of has been made about the unique cumulo system in people are going to be hit with liabilities that they relation to ports rating. There is no danger of unscrambling cannot reasonably meet. That will positively harm the the whole system. To include the risk of further injustice exact premise of the Bill—local authorities and businesses in the business rates system is just wrong. working together to regenerate their areas. I ask the Lest people think that this is a fanciful situation, let Minister, who is up to now untarnished by this whole me tell the House that if all local authorities were to unhappy saga, not to listen to the official line, but to implement BRS schemes, it would raise considerable apply basic common sense and justice and support the sums of money. However, great damage is being done Lords amendment. She should go to the Chancellor, by backdating purely in relation to ports. In the port of who may have the strength of flexibility and independence, Hull alone, the sector is being clobbered by a bill for and ask for justice to be done. something like £25 million. In Liverpool, the figure is Mr. Austin Mitchell: I support Lords amendments 11 £22 million; in Immingham, it is £19 million; and in and 12. It is unusual to find myself in such agreement Cardiff, it is £1.6 million. No wonder those areas feel with the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst that the Government are letting them down. I feel sorry (Robert Neill), but he put the case very powerfully and for the Labour Back Benchers who have tried to raise effectively and I support it. Unless we sustain these this issue and been thoroughly brushed off by their own amendments by voting against the Government—it gives Ministers. That is pretty shabby treatment. me no pleasure to do so—we will expose the Humberside Mr. Brazier: May I stress again that people do not ports and those in Liverpool and elsewhere to a very have to come to British ports? There is nothing to serious and messy situation in which firms will go prevent them from unloading their containers in Rotterdam bankrupt, people will be laid off, and jobs and businesses or in any other continental port and putting them will be lost. I am not prepared to support the Government straight on to a lorry that will come in through Dover in their proposals to carry that through. or the channel tunnel. That is what will happen. Lords amendment 11 is designed to rectify the disastrous situation caused by the retrospective rate demands issued Robert Neill: My hon. Friend takes a particular interest to port operators—I emphasise that this applies to port in transport matters, and he is absolutely right. operators, not port owners, who received a rebate on 369 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 370 their business rates. It was the port operators who If the Minister does not abandon her opposition to became eligible for separate assessment for business the Lords amendment and say “My God, Grimsby, you rates in 2005. The Valuation Office Agency tells us that are right; I never thought of that,” I should like her to that has been done. It went around to make the assessments, tell us how the port operators are to be compensated for but it talked to the owners, not the operators. It did not the money that they paid in business rates for the period give any notice; there was no consultation, which there between 2005 and 2008. What will happen to that should be have been, on raising the business rates. The money? The owner, ABP, has received a full rebate for assessment was based on what owners told the valuation the money that was paid by the operators, which is agency about liability for business rates. ludicrous, and it now says that it will not give the money Separate assessment was the principle that came in to the operators because it is ABP’s money and it must for port operators in 2005, and the valuation agency run businesses itself. told us that it had been done. Suddenly, however, thanks The operators are being threatened with retrospective to a case in Southampton—it was settled out of court business rate bills which they cannot pay because they to avoid a definitive verdict against the agency—it was cannot increase their charges retrospectively, and asking necessary to look at the assessments all over again. them to do so would be bad business practice. The Many of these businesses were not assessed until 2008 Government, recognising guiltily that they have made a for an assessment that should have been made in 2005. mess of things, are exceptionally allowing the operators Whose fault was that? It was manifestly the fault of to pay over a period of eight years, but that will be of no Government and the Valuation Office Agency. Perhaps great benefit, because the debt must go on the balance the agency was understaffed because the Gershon sheets, and if the balance sheets suggest insolvency, the economies had required it to shed labour, but in any businesses will be operating while insolvent. As the hon. event this was the fault of the agency rather than of the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst pointed out, if port operators, who have already paid business rates insolvency threatens, investment will fail. DFDS has through what is known as the cumulo rental system. already announced its intention of cutting investment. The business rate was part of the rent paid to the port The ports will change. Will the cars still come in owner, which is Associated British Ports in the case of through Grimsby—the great car port of the western the Humberside ports. world—or go out from Grimsby, for that matter, or will What the port operators are being asked to do is pay the operators change the way they do things and bring rates twice. Not only is it a sacred principle that everyone them in by other means? That is quite possible. We will must pay business rates; in the case of the ports, everyone certainly have the shedding of jobs and the closure of must pay business rates twice. It is inconceivable that businesses. Freshney Cargo Services has been much such a principle should be imposed, and that it should cited in recent debates, and was cited again today—this be defended by the Minister. Indeed, a succession of time accurately, I was glad to note. That firm’s very Ministers have presented us with this ludicrous line of existence is threatened. defence. The whole thing was handled very clumsily and ineptly 4.30 pm by the Valuation Office Agency. Assessments were rushed Those of us who oppose this regime have had two in at the last minute in 2008. Many of those assessments Adjournment debates and endless meetings with previous are now being reviewed through the so-called fast-track Ministers. We have been very well received and we put procedure, which takes several weeks. We do not know our case, but the Ministers were all junior Ministers—we how many are being reviewed, but although—as the never got to see the Chancellor or the Secretary of State hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst pointed for Communities and Local Government, who are the out—local authorities are now being pressurised into deciding forces—and they told us, “As junior Ministers, demanding the rates, they cannot be levied until the our hands are tied.” It is the job of junior Ministers to fast-track assessments have been completed. defend the indefensible, and they have done that very well, but there have been no concessions at all—we are I do not object to individual year-by-year assessments beating our heads against a brick wall. As my hon. of these businesses. What I do object to, strenuously, is Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) the retrospective demand for three and a half years of pointed out, that is what Ministers get the car for. business rates, dating back to 2005. How will that be possible? The businesses have already charged their Our warnings about the disaster that will come have customers—a process that often involves intense haggling. made no impression at all. It is now going to hit us, but They cannot go back to their customers and say “We all we have had is a litany of excuses such as that if the are sorry, but we will have to increase the charges.” retrospective rates demand were waived it would be an inappropriate aid to industry, and it would break a Mr. Frank Field: May I issue a plea to my hon. Friend sacred principle of the ratings system in respect of to stop pulling his punches? Is not the position even retrospective charges. We have been told that the businesses, worse? Operators who have created and maintained many of them small businesses, should have known—by jobs in our constituencies believe that they have paid divination or telepathy or some other form of spirit their rates through their charges. It is not just a case of medium—that they would have to pay these charges. A retrospection. A poll tax is being levied retrospectively load of rubbish has been told to us. We are in the on operators who have already paid what was expected position of mushrooms, with manure regularly thrown of them. over us by junior Ministers of the Departments concerned. Frankly, I am fed up of being in that position and of Mr. Mitchell: I was under the impression that I had talking about a situation that is so serious and of having just said that, but it is indeed true. The operators have Ministers take no notice. We had another Minister take been asked to pay business rates twice, and there is no no notice today; a new Minister adopted the old skills justification for that. of taking no notice of the case. 371 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 372

The principle the Lords amendment proposes is a will tell us that she accepts the principle of what we are simple one, and it already operates. That principle is saying and he can tell that company that it can continue that where there is a reassessment that comes at the to trade. The Labour party and the Government must volition of the valuation agency and not the business, accept this principle, because we cannot pursue these there will not be retrospective charging of that reassessment. port operators in this fashion and produce the kind of That is a good and sensible principle, because what we devastating effect that this measure will have in the have here is an inefficient agency with tyrannical powers, ports. We are not exaggerating: there will be very serious including the power to impose a large retrospective consequences. payment. It should not be allowed to use those tyrannical I wrote to the Minister—we have never been able to powers in defence of its own inefficiency. That is a good see one of the top Ministers—asking that this Lords principle. amendment be accepted. I also wrote to her asking that The Minister told us today that the increase is not we should be provided with accurate information on backdated if the error relates to premises on the list, but how many of these port operators have paid, how many is backdated if the error relates to premises that should are still paying and how many have negotiated entry have been entered on the list. The premises in question into the eight-year scheme. I have not received an answer. should have been entered on the list in 2005, so this is I do not think that the information is available. Ministers double-talk. They could be exempted from the retrospective have tried to con us by saying, “A high proportion have payment, and this Lords amendment suggests that they paid. If some pay, we can’t abandon the charges on the must be. The Government could have done that of their rest.” That just ain’t true. We are talking about a unique own accord. Why did they not do so, and thereby save category: port operators, who, under the new arrangements, us all this trouble? Why did they impose this retrospective are assessed for retrospective business rates. We need to assessment that is causing so much trouble in the ports? know how many of them have paid. I hope that the The Government have the power; they should have used Minister will tell us, because we can make these decisions it. For the Minister to tell us, “Well, the premises should only on the basis of that kind of information. I hope have been entered on the list,” is no excuse. Why were that if the Minister does not accept this amendment—I they not on the list, and what was their legal status? The have been watching the flow of notes coming from the owners of the premises were paying business rates; they hard-faced men and women in the Box— were assessed for business rates separately in 2005, so why cannot this retrospective abolition of the retrospective principle be applied to them, as it should be? What is Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is a their situation? very experienced Member of the House, so he will know that we do not refer to people who are not in the The Minister told us that if we carried the amendment, Chamber in that way. it would have no effect. It is clearly not a retrospective amendment, but I will not believe it if I am told that if the Government accepted this principle—as they should, Mr. Mitchell: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It was because that principle is in the legislation already—they tactless of me to refer to the complexions of those would not retrospectively give way in the port operators’ people in the reference that I should not have made—and case. They would, of course. They would obviously did not make. The Minister has been receiving notes accept the general principle, and they would have to do and I hope that they have changed her mind, because it justice even though the crime is only three months or so is important to seize this opportunity to change the old. It is futile for the Minister to tell us that this Government’s mind. If that does not happen, I shall measure would have no effect, because it would; even certainly vote for the amendment and, unusually for me, though the legislation is not retrospective, it would support proposals coming from the House of Lords, allow the abolition of the principle of retrospective which the Government can make retrospectively effective. demands for rates. The state of these businesses is shown by some of the Dan Rogerson: Our debate has become a little lively correspondence that has been sent to us by one of the for this time of the afternoon. Interestingly, in many of lawyers advising us on this issue. He says: our discussion we have discussed the potential for things “I was telephoned on Thursday by the accountant of one of to have an influence on local communities and for the…businesses affected by the failures of the Valuation Office business rate supplement projects to be introduced, but Agency. The accountant wanted to know the effect of the vote in we are now talking about the backdating of business the House of Lords”. rates for ports, which is having an impact on communities The effect of the Lords amendment was, of course, and businesses up and down this country. zero; it is not until we ratify it that it becomes effective, so this accountant is hanging on for today’s vote, in The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert which we shall compel the Government to accept the Neill) referred to a certain irony, so I should refer him to Lords amendment. The correspondence continues by remarks made earlier today by the hon. Member for saying that the accountant Foyle (Mark Durkan) about irony in politics. We have heard references to the New Testament and the Boer “was trying to decide whether he was obliged to qualify the company’s account with a note that it”— war this afternoon, which goes to show that our debates are perhaps at their best when we can respond to real the dock operator, one of several in such a position— situations in the country. Although the Bill might not “was insolvent. He felt that he was obliged to do so but was resolve the situation, it gives us the opportunity—as the desperately trying to find a reason not to qualify the accounts”. hon. Member for Great Grimsby has just said—to send We are told he did not want to complete the process by a clear signal of our intentions, to acknowledge the reporting the company insolvent. Like all of us, he is seriousness of the situation and to admit that it is the waiting for the relief of Mafeking, when the Minister responsibility of the Government to put it right. 373 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 374

It must be acknowledged that the problem in Humberside disputed, and, indeed, my hon. Friend the Minister said and Merseyside has been caused by a mistake by a earlier that people should come forward with evidence Government agency, although the businesses involved of that if it exists. In a previous debate, I said to the will have to pay the price. Even worse, their employees previous Minister that Associated British Ports sent out will pay the price if their jobs are lost. In the present a letter to those companies at a time when their business economic circumstances, the Prime Minister has instructed, rates had been increased to say that the cumulo was inasmuch as he can or is prepared to, banks that are being increased to cover the increase in business rates. If now part-publicly owned to be as sympathetic as possible that does not prove that business rates are included in to businesses that are in difficulty and to support them what they pay, I do not know what else can prove as much as possible. HMRC has been instructed to be the point. as flexible as possible in collecting taxes, to ensure that We have got ourselves into a completely unnecessary profitable businesses that want to invest in the future, mess. The other place did this House a service by provide employment and contribute to the economy are passing amendment 11. It has ensured that the issue not put out of business needlessly by short-term demands comes back on to the agenda and that all Members can that could be resolved. However, the Government are see that there is a solution. That solution might well pressing ahead with the business rate system, which have been directed at the problems in our ports, but the might make businesses unable to trade any longer. amendment is a good one in its own right. Even if the People will lose their jobs and it will affect investment in Government still feel uneasy about the port situation, communities served by those businesses, with consequences what on earth is wrong with or offensive about the for other businesses around the ports, including the amendment? It should be passed and it should be construction and other ancillary industries. Although applied to the ports companies. There can be no fairness we might not have the opportunity to resolve the problem when good companies are struggling to stay in business this afternoon, we can be part of the solution and because they are being asked to pay, for a second time, contribute to addressing the issue. business rates backdated to 2005. They can no longer Any problems that occur in port areas might have go back to their customers and reclaim the money. long-term consequences, as we have heard. If business ABP, which is not the only owner of ports in this is driven from the ports, it will find other routes and, country but affects the area that I represent in Goole, probably, never come back. We need to reflect on just has made it perfectly clear that the money that the what the Government are asking us to do. Government have paid back to them will not be passed Will the amendment solve the problem? No, but it on. This is retrospection and double taxation. In fairness would give the Government the opportunity to acknowledge to ABP, it says that because although it might have got not only that the issue needs addressing, but that they its money back in ports such as Goole its liability across have a way of dealing with it. It would also acknowledge the country has gone up, too. I do not think ABP sees that the situation in the ports is the fault not of the itself as a winner out of this whole sorry tale, either. businesses but of the Government agency.The Government must admit that and try to do something to resolve the I plead with the Minister, who is new to her post and situation. who will have had all sorts of briefings and notes from officials that say, “Resist,” “Stick with the line,” and The Minister said that it would be inconsistent for “Don’t let them grind you down.” We all know what the collection of business rate supplement to follow a happens in these scenarios. However, it needs dealing different path from the collection of business rate. I can with because this problem will not go away. I might be see what she means, and perhaps the amendment is an wrong, but I think that the most likely thing that will inelegant solution. But it will allow the House to vote happen today will be that the Government will win the and to show that many hon. Members feel that this day on the amendment, despite the fact that Members problem needs to be resolved. If we can demonstrate on both sides of the House will vote in favour of their the strength of that feeling, I hope that we can press the lordships’ position. Of course, that will not be the end Government into action. That has happened in recent of it, because the amendment will go back to the other weeks with the Gurkhas. The Government said that place. I hope that if we end up with that scenario, their there were insurmountable problems of precedent that lordships will take heart from the fact that there is could not be overcome. Members gave their view on cross-party consensus that the provision is just wrong that and, to their credit, the Government reacted. I and that it needs to be dealt with. hope that the same will happen this afternoon and we will reject the motion to disagree. If we stick with the I had the great honour a few years ago, for one year, amendments made in the other place, we will have a of being Parliamentary Private Secretary to the much better Bill as a result. missed Lord Williams when he was Leader of the House of Lords and I know what happens in this 4.45 pm scenario. No Government want to lose legislation because Mr. Cawsey: I shall not detain the House too long, of one bit of controversy, so at some point people have because when we debate this issue I feel increasingly to sit down and to start talking about what will ensure that I am turning into Bill Murray in “Groundhog that both Houses can reach an agreement. If we are Day”. I simply turn up and say exactly the same thing unsuccessful today, I hope that their lordships will see over and again and get exactly the same response. At that there is strong support in this House for the amendment the heart of the matter is the fact that we are discussing and will sit down with representatives of the Government Lords amendments to the Business Rate Supplements to thrash out a position that can be brought back to Bill, but a lot of us who represent ports represent both Houses on which we will agree. companies that think that they are already being charged This matter will not go away, because it is manifestly a business rate supplement. They have paid their rates and obviously unfair. Companies in ports up and down once through the cumulo system—that is not really the nation are struggling in already difficult circumstances 375 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 376

[Mr. Cawsey] we are not unsympathetic to the ports, and the House overwhelmingly supported the arrangements allowing because of the failure to grasp this simple matter, which liability backdated to 2005 to be discharged in instalments. is not of the Government’s making. We all accept that I am pleased to be able to tell the House that that the Valuation Office Agency messed it up in the first legislation is working well. place, but there is an obvious solution. I refuse to I can tell my right hon. Friend the Member for believe that it is beyond the wit of people in this House Birkenhead (Mr. Field) that, by 8 May this year, local and the other place to reach a solution together, so for authorities had reported that 185 properties covered by goodness’ sake let us get on and do it. the ports review had paid £30 million of backdated Sarah McCarthy-Fry: With the leave of the House, I liabilities in full, and that a further 88 business properties shall respond briefly to some of the points raised in the in ports had been granted a schedule of payments. In debate, but I shall begin by reiterating a principle. Many addition, my predecessor, who is now the Minister for hon. Members have spoken about fairness this afternoon, Housing, met two of the port operators—Peel Holdings and the principle is that a tax system such as business and Associated British Ports—to discuss the payment rates must be equitable to all. Any solution to a perceived of fees and whether that included the payment of rates. injustice must not confer a disadvantage on other taxpayers Although the Government have facilitated discussions who have paid and who were billed on time. with some port operators about the merits of these issues, we cannot intervene directly between the ports Prior to the ports review, some 1,600 separately assessed and occupying businesses, as the responsibility for paying properties were liable for rates from 1 April 2005. My rates through tenancy agreements is a private contractual hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) matter between the ports and the occupying businesses. said that separate assessments were introduced in 2005, I am happy to meet hon. Members who have ports in but that is not correct. The principle of separate assessment their constituency to discuss matters further, but I do has been a long-standing feature of the rating system, not consider the amendments before us to be the way and goes back as far as 1936. forward. Robert Neill: I appreciate that the Minister is new in Dan Rogerson: I echo the comments that other hon. her post, but does she accept that, although separate Members have made: the problem is not of the Minister’s assessment has been a feature of the general rating creation. However, she said that the amendments are system, the cumulo system operated in the 55 registered not the answer, which implies that there may well be an ports until the latest change? The 1,600 separate premises answer to the problem. Hon. Members in all parts of were rated as separate hereditaments only when that the House would welcome an idea of what that answer change, of which the ports did not have notice, was might be, so that they could decide whether they need to made. send a signal through the amendments. I gave the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As far as I am aware, and example earlier of the Gurkhas debate. Some Labour according to the figures that I have, the 1,600 properties Members chose not to support the motion in the name were liable for rates from 1 April 2005, and paid rates in of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, 2005-06 and 2007-08. Removing a backdated rates liability Hallam (Mr. Clegg), because they felt that as they had would turn a perceived advantage for newly assessed received a promise from the Government the issue properties into an actual disadvantage for existing properties would be resolved. I am not clear that we are in such a that have paid their rates liability for previous years. situation in this case, or that there is a way forward. If On the earlier point about empty properties, a landlord there is, it would be good to hear about it. who takes over a rateable property that is empty would Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I doubt that I can give a great be liable for rates. deal of comfort, because the solutions suggested by hon. Members are not a possible way forward. That is Mr. Frank Field: The Minister has confused the position. why we gave an unprecedented eight years in which to We are not asking for an unfair redistribution of the pay, and came up with the fast-track process. I know rateable value costs to those who already pay. Employers that hon. Members have said that the fast-track system in our ports want to pay rates, but they do not want to is not working as it should, but 40 proposals have been pay rates and have this poll tax imposed as well. If that resolved under the fast-track system. Some 195 remain happens, they simply will not survive. outstanding, and they have been transmitted, as appeals, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We are talking about two different to the Valuation Tribunal Service. We are assuming that issues here. One is the principle that separate assessment early hearings will follow. Ratepayers have been invited would be unfair to those who have been paying their to support early listing dates, but very few have taken up rates; the other has to do with the cumulo, which is a that option. Once the appeal is with the tribunal, there contractual agreement between the port operators. We is also an onus on the applicant to speed up the process. are not unsympathetic to the ports, but the Lords Robert Neill: The Minister is being clear, but will she amendments are not the answer to the problem. They concede that, according to the figures she has given, would affect the ability to levy a business rate supplement only 230-odd properties have come to an arrangement, on businesses occupying properties where the rateable or are in the process of so doing? There are about 1,600 value has been altered retrospectively, but they would individual properties concerned. Secondly, on the fast-track not impact on the backdated rates liability of some port process, I have details from RMS Holdings, which has operators. been offered a fast-track hearing between now and I have heard the arguments about sending a message September. It is difficult for it to take things up, if that is and setting a precedent, but the principle of fairness the best that it is offered under the fast-track proposals. demands that we look at the system as a whole, including Will she look again at the operation of the fast-track those who have already paid their rates. As I have said, system? 377 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 378

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am more than happy to look Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr. David into the fast-track system. However, the total number of Brown, Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet proposals relating to properties in ports since November Brown, Mr. Russell Havard, Mr. Dai is 235 and, overall, 540 proposals have been made over Browne, rh Des Healey, rh John the lifetime of the 2005 list. However, I am more than Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mr. Mark happy to look further at that fast-track system. Burden, Richard Hesford, Stephen Burnham, rh Andy Heyes, David To go back to my original point, we are talking about Butler, Ms Dawn Hill, rh Keith a point of principle to do with the business rate system. Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hoey, Kate It is about fairness. To repeat what I have said, determining Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hood, Mr. Jim liability takes us back to the issue of when the liability Campbell, Mr. Alan Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey started, in 2005 or 2010, as it will do under the BRS Caton, Mr. Martin Hope, Phil system and in future. People who have already paid Chapman, Ben Hopkins, Kelvin their business rates in full would be disadvantaged if we Clapham, Mr. Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George changed the system. That is why the decision was made Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Howells, rh Dr. Kim to put in place the deferral system, which allows an Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hughes, rh Beverley unprecedented eight years in which to pay. Clelland, Mr. David Humble, Mrs. Joan Clwyd, rh Ann Hutton, rh Mr. John Coaker, Mr. Vernon Iddon, Dr. Brian Mr. Austin Mitchell: I fear that what the Minister said Coffey, Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric was not correct. The principle of the argument that we Cohen, Harry Irranca-Davies, Huw are urging applies to port operators. The principle of Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda the previous legislation, as set out in regulation 5(3) Cooper, rh Yvette Jenkins, Mr. Brian of statutory instrument No. 2303 of 1989, was that all Cousins, Jim Johnson, rh Alan operational land of a harbour or dock undertaking was Crausby, Mr. David Johnson, Ms Diana R. to be treated as a separate hereditament, irrespective of Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen whether the property would otherwise form several Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr. Kevan separate hereditaments, or part of a single, larger Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Lynne hereditament. That principle was confirmed in the legal Cummings, John Jowell, rh Tessa action that the Valuation Office Agency began against Cunningham, Mr. Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric Grimsby Fish Dock Enterprises in 2002. One cannot Cunningham, Tony Keeble, Ms Sally Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Keeley, Barbara split a single hereditament in the case of docks, or when David, Mr. Wayne Keen, Alan the owner controls the access. That is what is happening. Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Ann There are attempts to split the docks into separate Davies, Mr. Quentin Kelly, rh Ruth hereditaments, and those are the ones— Denham, rh Mr. John Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Kidney, Mr. David Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is a long intervention. Dobbin, Jim Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter The hon. Gentleman has made his point. Dobson, rh Frank Knight, rh Jim Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kumar, Dr. Ashok Sarah McCarthy-Fry: My hon. Friend has the measure Doran, Mr. Frank Ladyman, Dr. Stephen of me on that. I do not have the details of those Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David regulations. Eagle, Angela Laxton, Mr. Bob Eagle, Maria Lazarowicz, Mark I go back to the policy that a business should pay its Efford, Clive Lepper, David fair amount of rates from the point at which it occupies Engel, Natascha Levitt, Tom the property, and that all businesses should be treated in Farrelly, Paul Lewis, Mr. Ivan a manner consistent with fair competition. That is the Fisher, Mark Linton, Martin principle on which we disagree with the Lords amendments, Fitzpatrick, Jim Lloyd, Tony but the reason, as I said, is one of financial privilege. Flello, Mr. Robert Love, Mr. Andrew Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords Flint, rh Caroline Lucas, Ian Flynn, Paul Mackinlay, Andrew amendment 11. Follett, Barbara MacShane, rh Mr. Denis The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 227. Foster, Mr. Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Division No. 153] [5 pm (Worcester) Malik, Mr. Shahid Foster, Michael Jabez Mallaber, Judy (Hastings and Rye) Mann, John AYES Gapes, Mike Marsden, Mr. Gordon Abbott, Ms Diane Barlow, Ms Celia Gardiner, Barry Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Ainger, Nick Barron, rh Mr. Kevin George, rh Mr. Bruce Martlew, Mr. Eric Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Battle, rh John Gerrard, Mr. Neil McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Beckett, rh Margaret Gilroy, Linda McCabe, Steve Allen, Mr. Graham Begg, Miss Anne Goggins, rh Paul McCafferty, Chris Anderson, Mr. David Bell, Sir Stuart Goodman, Helen McCarthy, Kerry Anderson, Janet Benton, Mr. Joe Griffith, Nia McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Armstrong, rh Hilary Berry, Roger Griffiths, Nigel McDonagh, Siobhain Atkins, Charlotte Blackman, Liz Gwynne, Andrew McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Austin, Mr. Ian Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFall, rh John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Blizzard, Mr. Bob Hall, Mr. Mike McGovern, Mr. Jim Baird, Vera Blunkett, rh Mr. David Hall, Patrick McKechin, Ann Balls, rh Ed Borrow, Mr. David S. Hamilton, Mr. David McKenna, Rosemary Banks, Gordon Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McNulty, rh Mr. Tony 379 Business Rate Supplements Bill17 JUNE 2009 Business Rate Supplements Bill 380

Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Snelgrove, Anne Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Key, Robert Meale, Mr. Alan Soulsby, Sir Peter Curry, rh Mr. David Kirkbride, Miss Julie Merron, Gillian Southworth, Helen Davey, Mr. Edward Knight, rh Mr. Greg Michael, rh Alun Spellar, rh Mr. John Davies, Mr. Dai Kramer, Susan Miliband, rh Edward Spink, Bob Davies, David T.C. Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Miller, Andrew Starkey, Dr. Phyllis (Monmouth) Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Moffatt, Laura Stewart, Ian Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Lamb, Norman Mole, Chris Stoate, Dr. Howard Dodds, Mr. Nigel Laws, Mr. David Morgan, Julie Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Leigh, Mr. Edward Mudie, Mr. George Straw, rh Mr. Jack Dorries, Nadine Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Mullin, Mr. Chris Stringer, Graham Drew, Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Munn, Meg Stuart, Ms Gisela Duncan, Alan Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Lidington, Mr. David Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Tami, Mark Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lilley, rh Mr. Peter O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Taylor, David Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn O’Hara, Mr. Edward Thornberry, Emily Evans, Mr. Nigel Loughton, Tim Olner, Mr. Bill Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Evennett, Mr. David Luff, Peter Osborne, Sandra Tipping, Paddy Fabricant, Michael Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Palmer, Dr. Nick Todd, Mr. Mark Fallon, Mr. Michael Maclean, rh David Farron, Tim Main, Anne Plaskitt, Mr. James Touhig, rh Mr. Don Prentice, Bridget Field, rh Mr. Frank Malins, Mr. Humfrey Turner, Dr. Desmond Prentice, Mr. Gordon Field, Mr. Mark Maples, Mr. John Twigg, Derek Prescott, rh Mr. John Foster, Mr. Don Mates, rh Mr. Michael Ussher, Kitty Primarolo, rh Dawn Fraser, Christopher Maude, rh Mr. Francis Vaz, rh Keith Purchase, Mr. Ken Gale, Mr. Roger May, rh Mrs. Theresa Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Walley, Joan Garnier, Mr. Edward McCrea, Dr. William Reed, Mr. Andy Waltho, Lynda Gauke, Mr. David McDonnell, John Reed, Mr. Jamie Ward, Claire George, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Riordan, Mrs. Linda Watson, Mr. Tom Gibb, Mr. Nick McIsaac, Shona Robertson, John Watts, Mr. Dave Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Whitehead, Dr. Alan Goodman, Mr. Paul Mercer, Patrick Rooney, Mr. Terry Wicks, rh Malcolm Goodwill, Mr. Robert Miller, Mrs. Maria Roy, Mr. Frank Williams, rh Mr. Alan Gove, Michael Milton, Anne Roy, Lindsay Wills, rh Mr. Michael Gray, Mr. James Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Ruane, Chris Wilson, Phil Green, Damian Mitchell, Mr. Austin Russell, Christine Winnick, Mr. David Greening, Justine Moss, Mr. Malcolm Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Greenway, Mr. John Mulholland, Greg Seabeck, Alison Wood, Mike Grieve, Mr. Dominic Murrison, Dr. Andrew Shaw, Jonathan Woolas, Mr. Phil Gummer, rh Mr. John Neill, Robert Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wright, Mr. Anthony Hague, rh Mr. William Newmark, Mr. Brooks Hammond, Mr. Philip O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Sheridan, Jim Wright, David Simon, Mr. Siôn Hammond, Stephen Oaten, Mr. Mark Wright, Dr. Tony Skinner, Mr. Dennis Hancock, Mr. Mike Öpik, Lembit Wyatt, Derek Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Hands, Mr. Greg Osborne, Mr. George Smith, Ms Angela C. Tellers for the Ayes: Harper, Mr. Mark Ottaway, Richard (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Mr. John Heppell and Harris, Dr. Evan Paice, Mr. James Smith, rh Jacqui Mrs. Sharon Hodgson Harvey, Nick Paterson, Mr. Owen Hayes, Mr. John Penning, Mike NOES Heald, Mr. Oliver Penrose, John Heath, Mr. David Pickles, Mr. Eric Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, James Heathcoat-Amory, rh Price, Adam Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Brooke, Annette Mr. David Prisk, Mr. Mark Alexander, Danny Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hemming, John Prosser, Gwyn Amess, Mr. David Burns, Mr. Simon Hendry, Charles Pugh, Dr. John Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Burrowes, Mr. David Herbert, Nick Randall, Mr. John Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Burt, Alistair Hoban, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Baker, Norman Burt, Lorely Hollobone, Mr. Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Baldry, Tony Butterfill, Sir John Holmes, Paul Rennie, Willie Barker, Gregory Cable, Dr. Vincent Horam, Mr. John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Baron, Mr. John Cameron, rh Mr. David Horwood, Martin Robathan, Mr. Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, Mr. Gregory Howard, rh Mr. Michael Robertson, Hugh Benyon, Mr. Richard Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Howarth, David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Bercow, John Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Howell, John Robinson, Mrs. Iris Beresford, Sir Paul Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hughes, Simon Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Binley, Mr. Brian Cash, Mr. William Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Bone, Mr. Peter Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hunter, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Boswell, Mr. Tim Chope, Mr. Christopher Hurd, Mr. Nick Ruffley, Mr. David Bottomley, Peter Clappison, Mr. James Jack, rh Mr. Michael Russell, Bob Brady, Mr. Graham Clark, Greg Jackson, Mr. Stewart Sanders, Mr. Adrian Brake, Tom Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Scott, Mr. Lee Brazier, Mr. Julian Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Kawczynski, Daniel Selous, Andrew Breed, Mr. Colin Cormack, Sir Patrick Keetch, Mr. Paul Shapps, Grant 381 Business Rate Supplements Bill 17 JUNE 2009 382

Shepherd, Mr. Richard Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Green Energy (Definition and Promotion Simpson, David Walker, Mr. Charles Smith, Sir Robert Wallace, Mr. Ben Bill) (Money) Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Waterson, Mr. Nigel Queen’s recommendation signified. Spicer, Sir Michael Watkinson, Angela Spring, Mr. Richard Webb, Steve 5.17 pm Stanley, rh Sir John Willetts, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Williams, Mr. Roger The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Stuart, Mr. Graham Williams, Stephen and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I beg to move, Swayne, Mr. Desmond Willis, Mr. Phil That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Green Swinson, Jo Willott, Jenny Energy (Definition and Promotion) Bill, it is expedient to authorise— Swire, Mr. Hugo Wilshire, Mr. David (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any Syms, Mr. Robert Wilson, Mr. Rob expenditure incurred by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilson, Sammy State, and Thurso, John Winterton, Ann (2) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase Timpson, Mr. Edward Winterton, Sir Nicholas attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act Tredinnick, David Yeo, Mr. Tim out of that Fund. Turner, Mr. Andrew Young, rh Sir George The motion concerns the private Member’s Bill promoted Younger-Ross, Richard Tyrie, Mr. Andrew by the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth)— Vaizey, Mr. Edward Tellers for the Noes: [Interruption.] Vara, Mr. Shailesh Bill Wiggin and Viggers, Sir Peter Mr. Stephen Crabb Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. May I ask that Members who are leaving the Chamber do so Question accordingly agreed to. quickly and quietly? Lords amendment 11 disagreed to. Mr. Kidney: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Lords amendment 12 disagreed to. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on choosing for Lords amendments 13 and 14 disagreed to. his Bill such an important subject as green energy, and Amendment (a) made in lieu of amendments 1 to 6, 13 particularly on his focus on improving the take-up of and 14. microgeneration measures. I also congratulate him on Lords amendment 15 agreed to, with Commons privileges securing such a broad and cross-party coalition of waived. support for his Bill. On Second Reading, the previous Minister with responsibility for energy, my right hon. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and learned Friend the Member for North Warwickshire Order No. 83H(2)), That a Committee be appointed to (Mr. O’Brien), welcomed the Bill on behalf of the draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Government. In his speech, he said that the Government to their amendments 11 and 12; support the key principles underpinning the Bill. The That Lyn Brown, Natascha Engel, Sarah McCarthy-Fry, House approved the Bill’s Second Reading, and it therefore Robert Neill and Dan Rogerson be members of the proceeded into Committee. Committee; The Government see the Bill as a valuable opportunity That Sarah McCarthy-Fry be the Chairman of the to promote microgeneration through the definition of Committee; “green energy”. That three be the quorum of the Committee. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I That the Committee do withdraw immediately.— warmly welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new (Mr. Blizzard.) responsibilities. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] He will Question agreed to. hear that the whole House echoes that welcome. Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be I also greatly welcome the Bill. On microgeneration, reported and communicated to the Lords. has the hon. Gentleman given any further thought to the definition of hydropower, which is still an outstanding issue? The Bill is a potential vehicle to put right an anomaly that is preventing people from investing in micro hydropower. During his very short time in the Department, has he given any thought to rectifying that anomaly?

Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He will know that the Bill is about micro wind turbines and air source heat pumps. It requires the Secretary of State to undertake consultation about the future of the microgeneration strategy, so I commend to the hon. Gentleman the idea of his taking part in that consultation and making his valuable point. The matter is in my mind as I speak. There remain a number of barriers to the continued deployment of small-scale renewable and low-carbon energy sources, hence the Government’s review of the strategy. The Bill will be a useful means of helping to 383 Green Energy (Definition and 17 JUNE 2009 384 Promotion Bill) (Money) [Mr. Kidney] assessment of the hon. Member for East Surrey. The Government have accepted all the important principles implement that strategy once the review is completed. It of the Bill and the key measures in it. sets a strategic framework within which we can remove May I correct the Minister on one small matter? I do barriers and continue the development of a crucial not believe that the Bill just relates to wind turbines and market. For example, the Government are keen to ensure air source heat pumps. It has a much broader spread, that we are in the best possible position to capitalise on and issues relating to micro-hydropower, which my hon. the introduction of the forthcoming financial incentive Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) regimes for both renewable heat and small-scale low-carbon raised, are quite important. Certainly we can happily electricity. discuss them in Committee. We on these Benches wish Work to strengthen the Bill and fit it into the strategy the Bill well, and we would like the resolution to be is ongoing, and I look forward to its completion in passed without opposition. Committee. However, I assure hon. Members that in considering that work, the Government do not intend 5.23 pm to change the main thrust or sentiment of the Bill, which is the promotion of green energy. We very much Mr. Peter Ainsworth (East Surrey) (Con): I thank the support that. Minister for moving the motion, and I welcome him to his new responsibilities. He has an honourable track The motion before the House is the usual money record on green issues, so it is good to see him in his resolution for a private Member’s Bill that may create a post. I hope that he will have much influence on charge on public funds. The Bill does not directly give Government thinking on these matters. I also thank rise to additional expenditure. However, the House’s other hon. Members for their kind words. approval is required to accommodate any costs that may arise from the further development of the There has been no attempt to water down the provisions microgeneration strategy. The details of that strategy, that I am seeking to introduce. Speaking of water, I am including any expenditure, will be the subject of public afraid that there is a problem with introducing measures consultation in line with requirements in the Bill. on micro-hydropower into the Bill. However, I hope very much to work with the Government and Liberal I hope that hon. Members agree that it is therefore Democrat Members to put that problem right in another necessary and desirable for the House to approve the way at another time. I have no doubt that we will return money resolution. Any reliance on it for spending public to the matter during the Committee stage. money will be in accordance with a strategy that will Question put and agreed to. have been approved following public consultation. There is no immediate commitment of public spending, and there will be ample opportunity to comment on the Business without Debate development of future policy. I therefore commend the motion to the House. DELEGATED LEGISLATION 5.21 pm Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6), Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): We on the Conservative Benches warmly welcome the fact that the EMPLOYMENT Government support the Bill introduced by my hon. That the draft Work and Families (Increase of Maximum Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth), Amount) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 4 June, the Green Energy (Definition and Promotion) Bill. We be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) have a clear vision of a distributed energy economy, and Question agreed to. microgeneration will be essential to that. My hon. Friend has a formidable record of promoting pragmatic green causes such as this, and we look forward to the Bill EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS making its swift and positive way through Committee. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)), 5.22 pm Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I join others in GENETICALLY MODIFIED MAIZE welcoming the Bill and congratulating the hon. Member That this House takes note of the two unnumbered explanatory for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth) on promoting it. It can memoranda from the Department for Environment, Food and be very important in accelerating the development of Rural Affairs dated 6 May 2009 concerning the placing on the renewable energy, particularly microgeneration. The market, in accordance with Directive 2001/18/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council, of maize products (Zea mays L., Minister is right that it enjoys broad cross-party support line Bt11 and Zea mays L., line 1507) genetically modified for in the House. The fact that the Government support it resistance to certain lepidopteran pests; and supports the Government’s is welcome. Occasionally, Private Members’ Bills have view that all the requirements of the Directive have been met in to be watered down to enjoy Government support, but I relation to these products and that their proposed authorisation am pleased to say that my assessment is that that is not for cultivation should be granted.—(Mr. Blizzard.) the case with this Bill. I know that that is also the Question agreed to. 385 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 386 Scilly) NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly) debts that the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust has accumulated over a number of years and saying to what Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House extent just giving Cornwall the funding that the do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Government’s formula says it needs would help to address 5.24 pm that long-standing problem? Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): I am delighted to have secured the debate, but I am sorry that the Minister Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for whom I understood to be responding is not yet in his raising that point. She has been a champion for the place—doubtless that will be put right shortly. The NHS in Cornwall. It is as a result of the teamwork subject of the debate is important. [Interruption.] Iam among Cornish MPs, in bringing the case to the pleased that the Minister is now in his place and I Government and ensuring that the message is heard welcome him to his new position. loud and clear, that we have made so much progress, The subject has significance beyond the geographical although we obviously still have a great deal of progress designation in the title of the debate. Many places other to make. than Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly experience similar The figure of £56.5 million for underfunding in the problems in that they suffer significant health inequalities financial year 2010-11 stands in contrast with the position in comparison with the national average and deprivation in 2006, when the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust in terms of the population’s income profile. The geography was placed in special measures, after it was discovered of a peninsula also presents problems, and I believe that to be more than £15 million in deficit. That figure for Cornwall and the Scilly Isles are further from target debt changed rapidly to £32 million, as a result of the than anywhere else in the country, in the Government’s resource account budgeting system, which the Treasury view. insists that Departments put in place, and, later that We are grateful to the Government for ensuring that year, to £57 million, as a result of an estimate of the the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation studied, commitments that the trust had already made. over several years, every aspect of the NHS formula for the allocation and weighted capitation of funding to We are still awaiting a review this year of where the every primary care trust in the country. Consequently, trust is now. We are reassured by the messages from the there is a welcome uplift in the funding for Cornwall trust that it not only is in recurring balance, but is doing and other places. However, although Cornwall will its best to retrieve the situation financially. However, as receive a 12.4 per cent. increase as a result of the my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, there is the question acknowledgement that it is significantly more underfunded how a trust can get itself into such a position of than the Government recognised previously, it will still underfunding when the Government and their advisory be 6.2 per cent. below target at the end of the current committee have acknowledged that for all these years—one two-year cycle of NHS funding. That is as far as the might argue for at least the last decade, because that is Government will allow any PCT to be by that stage—the how long we have been campaigning to get the formula end of March 2011. Although the increase is welcome, changed—we have been underfunded by the equivalent it raises issues about which the Minister must, I am of the debt that, under its worst interpretation, the trust sure, be aware. has faced. That is a significant issue. It is probably also worth pointing out that the problem In 2006, when the trust’s debt was first identified, it has not arisen overnight. I have already congratulated was placed in special measures and given support from the Government on ensuring that the Advisory Committee the Department of Health. The chief executive resigned on Resource Allocation undertook a thorough review. and initially—certainly in the first year—the trust went However, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly NHS services through a period of what I would describe as panic-laden have long suffered from the underfunding arising from decision taking to try to recover the financial situation the funding formula that the Conservative Government as quickly as it could. Since then, the trust, under the originally introduced. It has taken such a long time to Department’s close guidance, has had a turnover of five get around to addressing that underfunding, which has chief executives and five chairmen. affected the poorest region in the UK. I am not prepared to comment on individual cases, As the Minister would expect, all the Cornwall Members but since the fact that the trust faced serious financial of Parliament have campaigned for many years to ensure, problems was first identified, issues have arisen that are first, that there would be a review and, secondly that it clearly not the responsibility of the local community. would be robust and thorough. It acknowledged that One of the themes that I want to draw out from this the revised formula should be introduced at the beginning evening’s debate is the importance of establishing a of the financial year. However, that leaves Cornwall system of NHS delivery in local communities that is far with funding, which is £56.5 million below what the more accountable to those communities than has hitherto Government have identified should be its allocation. been the case in Cornwall and the rest of the country. In preparing for this debate I looked at the funding I know that Ministers use the language of encouraging for other parts of the country. To be fair, there are areas greater localism and greater local decision making on in Norfolk, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Lincolnshire the priorities relating to the allocation and spending of where funding is 6.2 per cent. below the target, but NHS resources, but in Cornwall, we have experienced where it is also marginally above Cornwall’s gross level the serious problem of too much micro-management of underfunding, because of the size of the PCTs by from Richmond House and, arguably, from the strategic which those areas are served. health authority. That has clearly not contributed to a Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): calm situation that would allow the kind of decision Will my hon. Friend put the level of underfunding into making that Cornwall has needed over the period in perspective, perhaps by giving an indication of the question. 387 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 388 Scilly) Scilly) Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): My hon. Friend if I were the MP representing those areas, I would argue has identified an incredibly important subject. In 2006, strongly that those changes should not be made—or at we in Gloucestershire also found that the level of least not in a precipitate way that might undermine accountability to the local population for some of the services. That option might not necessarily need to be drastic decisions that were taken was not very high. We taken. are still fighting to restore services, such as the overnight In the chief executive of the local PCT in Cornwall, children’s services at the Battledown children’s ward in Ann James, the Minister has a very loyal advocate for Cheltenham, that were lost in those cuts. Does he agree the Government and the Department. In preparing for that, in looking for cost savings and greater accountability, this debate, I asked for her opinion on our distance we might consider the future of the strategic health from target and on the impact of Cornwall’s underfunding authority for the south-west as a whole as a possible on the ability of the local NHS to ensure that services area for economy and improved accountability between were adequate. She told me that the local PCT, even at the Government and the local people? this distance from target, had been able to make tremendous Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for advances in health care. She said that it had received raising that issue. Government quangos and departmental more than £400 million of extra funding over the past bodies are making decisions that are vital to the local four years; £2.5 million had been invested in NHS communities that benefit from these crucial services, yet dentistry, resulting in a cut in waiting lists; £1.6 million the people in the communities have very little influence had been invested in maternity services; and a new over those decisions. Most people in my area are pretty GP-led health centre was being built in the constituency cynical about the consultation exercises and believe that of my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and they are merely a process of public window-dressing Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy). Ann James also mentioned before a decision that has already been made is further investment in a number of other services in implemented. Cornwall, which I shall come to in a few moments. The Minister should recognise that this is not just Julia Goldsworthy: Is not that exemplified by the fact special pleading on behalf of Cornwall, as there is a that people are not consulted on two different possible reasonable case to be heard. Simply saying that funding outcomes? Rather, the consultation is simply an exercise for areas that are clearly suffering from underfunding in providing information. Does not that devalue the cannot be raised because of the potential impact on process of consultation altogether? other areas is not good enough. The Government have Andrew George: The Minister is certainly listening, been able to sink substantial amounts into an IT project, and nodding at some of these points. I do not know including the choose and book system, at a cost of whether he is in partial agreement, or whether he at £12.4 billion. Another example is the £150 million spent least agrees with the sentiments being expressed. Perhaps on the roll-out of what some people call the “super- there is a potential for finding some common ground on surgeries”as alternative providers of medical services—or the points that we are raising. “polyclinics”, as some prefer to call them, although I I took part in a debate on these issues on 18 March know that the Minister’s Department does not like that 2009 with the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. term and calls them something different. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), who is now the Local PCTs have had to deliver in their own areas a Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. The number of centrally driven or centrally funded top-down broad issue of the allocation formula was debated at initiatives. Whether such decisions relate to independent that time. The Minister said that the formula treatment centres or the other projects I have mentioned, “is made up of a count of the population served by the PCT, with my argument is that they would be far better taken in adjustments made to reflect factors such as the age of the population, communities such as Cornwall, where the services that the level of deprivation, unavoidable differences in costs, which people are concerned about might be enhanced—and are known as the market forces factor, and rurality.”—[Official Report, 18 March 2009; Vol. 489, c. 285WH.] more effectively than by the initiatives from Richmond house. There is scope for argument there, and I suspect One of the big issues for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly that the Minister will disagree, but the matter needs to is the impact of the market forces factor on the allocation be considered. of funding. That element of the funding formula seems to suggest that, because wage levels are low in Cornwall, The impact of underfunding on services is very clear. we deserve less money. The argument seems to be that, It leads to pressures on staffing levels in acute services. because the market circumstances are somewhat lower, As I witnessed myself, that can be dangerous. Staff we deserve less funding. I was pleased that, as a result of levels on some wards really need to be looked at. I was the academic study by the consultant body, that issue fortunate a couple of years ago to have the opportunity was reviewed and put right. to shadow nurses on four wards at the Royal Cornwall Many in our communities feel that the Government hospital in Truro and the West Cornwall hospital in my should move much more quickly to allow PCTs that are own constituency. I was seriously concerned about staffing below target to move more rapidly to meet their target. levels, and particularly about the ratio of staff to the The response of the right hon. Member for Exeter was acuteness of the cases that needed to be dealt with. I that was also concerned about bureaucracy, form filling and “moving faster over the next two years would result in painful targets, which staff had to chase up at the same time. cuts to services”.—[Official Report, 18 March 2009; Vol. 489, There were a number of issues of concern. c. 286WH.] West Cornwall, a very small hospital in my constituency He went on to identify a number of PCTs, mostly in about which the local community rightly feel extremely London and the south-east, with allocations over target, passionate, has experienced a rollercoaster of emotions whose resources would be cut over a period, resulting in in recent years as a result of panic-laden decision making. painful decisions having to be made. I sympathise, and Uncertainty and anxiety about the true future of the 389 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 390 Scilly) Scilly) hospital and the services available to local patients have It was they who first mucked about with it in a way that been a predominant theme. As I said, the trust has would slowly and quietly send dental practices bankrupt undergone a large number of changes of chief executives if they maintained NHS services as they had been and chairmen, and is still struggling to recover from before. Now the Government have managed the amazing decisions that were made only a couple of years ago. trick of renegotiating the contract and making the Cornwall has one of the most threadbare NHS dentistry position even worse, leaving us with what is becoming services in the country. I was privileged to be able to almost a privatised dental service. invite the chairman of the independent review body, Professor Jimmy Steele, to see what was going on in Andrew George: I certainly think that that is true, but Cornwall back in February, in the early days of his I must also say that there are geographical differences inquiry. He told me this week that his report would be across the country as a whole. The Government measure, published next week, and we look forward to reading it. and the means by which they pay for these services, is Most adults in Cornwall simply assume that they will the average units of dental activity. On that measure, never be able to get on to an NHS dentist’s list—at least, NHS provision per head of population in Cornwall is I was going to refer to such a list, but obviously people about half the national average. Professor Steele has do not register with NHS dentists nowadays. It is incredibly been looking at this issue, and I am told that provision difficult to arrange to be seen by an NHS dentist. It is is significantly better in some parts of the country than not just a question of access, although on a long, thin in Cornwall. In west Cornwall, the situation is that peninsula there are no alternatives in the form of other about one third of the population can get some access PCTs or health services, and as my hon. Friend the to NHS dentistry, and emergency access is even more Member for Falmouth and Camborne knows, the further difficult. west one goes the worse the position is. There is also the Professor Steele tells me that the unique geography of perpetual uncertainty. We can be pretty sure that for Cornwall makes it particularly hard to get services in every new NHS dentist whose arrival in one of the the right place, and when they are not in the right place, towns in my constituency is trumpeted, another will travel is, of course, difficult and expensive. Even if the jettison NHS patients or go private within months, if combination of rurality and poverty does not make not weeks, because of the pressure that dentists feel that Cornwall unique, it certainly makes it a very good they are under. example of the problems that there can be in delivering services. We in Cornwall hope that, as a result of the Julia Goldsworthy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend review, the review board will come up with proposals for being so generous in giving way. Does he agree that that acknowledge the geographically specific problems the contract is making the problem of access even in some parts of the country, and that it will perhaps worse? I visited an entirely NHS-run dental surgery in even encourage the Government to review again the Mylor—the only dental surgery in Cornwall that is basis of the funding formula—the allocation and notional accepting new NHS patients. Because of the contract level of funding that is available to places such as and the illness of one of the dentists, the practice had Cornwall to ensure that they do in fact have adequate spare capacity which it had to fill by the end of the year. provision of dental services. It took on a new dentist and a number of new patients, but the position is no longer sustainable, and it faces Midwifery and maternity services in west Cornwall having to close its doors to new patients and make an are another subject on which I would welcome the NHS dentist redundant. Minister’s encouragement. I shall shortly be seeing a group of community midwives in my constituency. They Andrew George: As I suspect the Minister will hear tell me that their complement of midwives in the towns when Professor Jimmy Steele reports next week, that is of Helston, St. Ives, Penzance and Hayle in west Cornwall a common theme, and I hope that the Government will is significantly below the Government’s recommended reflect on it. level. That puts pressure on services and on what they The Select Committee on Health largely precipitated can provide in terms of the whole-time equivalent the demand for an inquiry by encouraging the then assessment of the population they serve and their work Secretary of State to call for one, and I congratulate the load and its throughput. then Secretary of State on doing so. It was clear that the I secured a debate on the Government’s policy as set Government would have to review the impact of the out in “Maternity Matters” on 2 May 2007, when I new contract that was introduced in April 2006. Many welcomed its principles, but I also asked whether the members of the profession had warned the Government Government had put the resources in place to ensure about its potential impact. In places such as Cornwall that their fine words could be met with action on the and, no doubt, Gloucestershire, it resulted in perpetual ground, so that mothers would have choices in the years uncertainty. ahead. That is clearly not the case in west Cornwall—and I am told that west Cornwall has better midwifery Martin Horwood rose— provision than many other communities. Andrew George: No doubt my hon. Friend is about to Funding issues underlie all the concerns that I have say the same about his area. raised. Services cannot be provided if the funding is not in place, and certainly if there has been a decade or Martin Horwood: I am extremely grateful to my hon. more of considerable underfunding. In contrast with Friend for being so generous with his time. I agree with other parts of the country, as a result of its allocation, both him and our hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth Cornwall has struggled year on year under the weight and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy). Does he agree that of national expectations and as a consequence of patients the problems with the contract date back even further, being aware of national levels of service. I congratulate to the early 1990s and the last Conservative Government? the Government on their funding in general. Indeed, 391 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 392 Scilly) Scilly) [Andrew George] huge fluctuations in population—Cornwall’s population doubles over the summer—which brings different pressures, the Liberal Democrats have always welcomed the funding and we have a greater and increasing number of elderly that the Government have been prepared to put into the people compared with other parts of the country. NHS across the country, but the allocation has simply All those issues throw up different challenges for the left places such as Cornwall behind, year on year, and health service. My hon. Friend focused on the funding therefore further behind overall, thus denuding and challenges, but they are just one aspect of the wider undermining services and making it increasingly difficult problem. Successive Governments have given insufficient for the professionals who are providing those services to recognition to the cost of providing health services in maintain them. rural areas, and although the review has, perhaps for My other theme, which I very much hope the Minister the first time, exposed how big the gap is, we still do not will take on board in his reply, is that we need to provide clearly understand how quickly it should be closed. a structure that not only allows the local community Given that some authorities are far from their target, it have a say through the occasional consultation paper is very difficult to understand why overfunded authorities exercise, but genuinely allows locally elected representatives are not meeting the cost of the lowest funded. One can to determine the priorities and champion the interests understand why no trust would want its funding to be of their local communities. Many of the decisions taken cut, but I do not understand why the ceilings need to by the primary care trust are not only technical and pay for the floors—I hope that makes sense; I might medical, but political; they are about the allocation of have meant it the other way round. resources in an area and the implementation of Government I have already mentioned the geographic challenges. policy. We need to decide whether such bodies are Cornwall is a long, thin peninsula, surrounded by water simply agents of central Government and the local on three sides, with one main arterial road that gets very community is simply something that is occasionally blocked in the summer. That poses specific challenges consulted, or whether such bodies are there to reflect to the provision of services, and people in Cornwall the interests and priorities of that local community and have to look to other alternatives to meet some of those to ensure that it is fully engaged in the decision-making challenges. Cornwall air ambulance, which is funded process. entirely by charitable donations, is essential in the summer Several hon. Members rose— to ensure that people can be transported to accident and emergency. Last summer, we had the ridiculous Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I call Julia situation of motor ambulances queuing outside Treliske, Goldsworthy. the main accident and emergency centre, to ensure that the hospital met its four-hour waiting times, with the air 5.56 pm ambulance having to transfer nursing home patients. Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): The most frustrating thing is that, while the staff are I am glad that I managed to catch your eye, Madam doing all they can to humanise services, the Government’s Deputy Speaker. I did not intend to contribute to this approach is that one size fits all, which is why dental debate because I did not expect to have the time to do services fail to reflect the county’s needs. Only one NHS so, but I welcome the opportunity to add a few comments dental surgery is treating new patients. There is an to those made by my hon. Friend the Member for obsession with a choice agenda, but in Cornwall the St. Ives (Andrew George). most important thing for many patients is to know that Although there have been significant challenges for their nearest service—which might actually be a long the national health service in Cornwall, the county is distance away—will be able to provide them with a greatly blessed in one respect: the quality of staff. The certain standard of care. flip side of many of the geographical challenges that we Many services are being centralised outside Cornwall, face is that the staff are incredibly hard-working and and decisions are being taken without an accountable committed, our staff turnover is a lot lower than that of process. The Government just do not get how these other places and because the county is such a wonderful things need to work in rural areas. Recently, we had a place to live we are also lucky to have incredibly and heated, so-called consultation on transferring surgery talented specialists who choose to live there. There are for upper gastrointestinal tract cancers to Derriford. great opportunities in Cornwall, but the problem is that The strategic health authority said that, to ensure high successive Governments appear to have been unable to standards, the service needed to be provided by a team recognise what the challenges are in providing a national of people who had the experience to ensure the best health service in very different parts of the country. Our outcomes, but it seems that every service is being concern is that there has not been significant understanding transferred—salami sliced—further away.The Government or recognition of how rural needs manifest themselves should consider operating a specialist network that and how they need to be addressed. allows skills to be spread throughout the area. Cornwall The Government’s approach has been very much to could be responsible for delivering one of those specialist emphasise that the last thing they want is a postcode services, and people in the county would have access to lottery, but our point is that the problem with a “postcode at least one centre. lottery” is the lottery bit, not the postcode bit. People want health services that address their needs, which may Andrew George: I agree with those professionals who be specific to their communities. The challenges that we argue that we want to ensure the best possible outcome face in Cornwall stem from the fact that it is one of the for patients, and if that requires a concentration of most deprived parts of the country and from the fact services, so be it. But, as my hon. Friend says, we should that services can be difficult to access because of the perhaps look at networks and at ensuring that the geography. In addition, the county has to deal with concentration comes westward as well as going east. 393 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 394 Scilly) Scilly) One of the problems for our constituents is that Julia Goldsworthy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. accessing specialist services requires lengthy journeys—to The nub of what I am saying is that people in Cornwall London for neurosurgery, for example. The health care are not asking for services that are better funded than travel costs scheme is not sufficient for people on low those anywhere else in the country. In a debate earlier incomes, but not on benefit. Many of our constituents this week on the impact of the recession on rural areas, are clearly disadvantaged by the lack of funding to my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and compensate them for the impact that the concentration Lonsdale (Tim Farron) emphasised that point. He said of services in just a few places has on them and their that the Liberal Democrats had made the case for extra families. investment in the NHS, and that people living and working in rural areas had contributed towards that Julia Goldsworthy: My hon. Friend is right. No account extra investment like everyone else and that they want is taken of the costs or the time taken to travel such to see that they stand to benefit in the same way as distances. In parts of my constituency, visiting a sick everybody else. They should have health services that relative being treated in Derriford can take three hours reflect their needs and that are able to meet them. The by car every day. Such factors should be taken into concern is that that is not happening and that, with the account, but currently are not. current lack of accountability in the way decisions are That can also be seen in other policy areas, where taken and resources are spent, they have no opportunity once again the approach seems to be that central to have their voice heard. Government take a decision and the strategic health authority and primary care trust see it as their role to There are two parts to the problem. We must recognise implement decisions locally rather than to feed information the need and must ensure that there is accountability in back up the line to make the case for what they consider decision taking. Unfortunately, for too many people in to be most appropriate for the needs of their area. We Cornwall, not only are their needs not being met but see that happening in a variety of ways. The example their voices are not being heard. that springs most obviously to mind is that of walk-in centres. It has been decreed that every primary care 6.8 pm trust must have one, and the primary care trust has to Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): May I apologise justify where it puts the centre and why it is needed. to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to my hon. Friend the It turns out that the PCT has decided that the walk-in Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) and to the House centre is needed in my constituency. The justification is for not being in the Chamber at the beginning of his that it is the most densely populated part of Cornwall speech? I was involved in the debate on the Business and that some regard has been given to the fact that Rate Supplements Bill and took the opportunity to there are lots of migrant workers who will need the leave the Chamber for a short while, anticipating that centre, as they are unlikely to be registered with a the next debate might continue for longer than it did. I doctor. If such centres are to be of any use, they should am pleased that you found time to call me to speak, be in areas where a lot of people are travelling to work. however, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank you for One could argue that other places in Cornwall, such as that. Truro, have huge numbers of people travelling into the I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, area every day. If they want flexibility in being able to and it is fortuitous for Cornwall that he did so as we drop in and see a doctor, they might want the centre to have the opportunity to debate matters in more detail be there. than we might have anticipated. He addressed clearly GPs with surgeries in more rural areas say that the the underlying funding issues in Cornwall and focused best way of ensuring that migrant workers have access on some of the problems that have occurred, sadly, in to the health services they need is for an individual the management of the Royal Cornwall hospital in relationship to be built up between the surgery and the Treliske. Of course, in turn that has caused problems for farmers who employ agricultural workers, rather than the acute trust, but it is also important to note that the simply plonking a massive centre on an industrial centre deal that has been worked out to allow the PCT to somewhere. These people, who have no access to their support the acute trust as it gets its finances back on own transport and who might be able to catch a bus track has longer term implications for resources across every other Monday, if they are lucky, will have no Cornwall. means of getting to such a centre. It seems that the Many of my constituents in the western part of north decision is made centrally and then it is up to the PCT Cornwall use the Royal Cornwall hospital at Treliske to justify why it is needed locally. and are very pleased with the service there, but people Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for in the east of my constituency tend to go to Derriford giving way a second time. This is a rather classic example hospital in Plymouth, the Royal Devon and Exeter of the Government’s imposing a solution that might be hospital or the North Devon district hospital at Barnstaple. satisfactory in an urban setting but that is still an urban The question is whether the necessary support for the solution to a long-standing rural problem. Cornwall, provision of acute services in Truro is drawing resources from the Tamar to the Isles of Scilly, is more than 100 away from the more accessible services over the border miles long. We have to question whether alternative in Devon. provider medical services will provide for the whole of If we were starting with a blank sheet of paper to Cornwall. The PCT has not been able to show that plan for health investment in Cornwall, we would probably those services will not undermine the settled provision not begin by placing a major district general hospital in of existing services in a way that damages the local the middle of the county. We might put one in both the community or that the benefit of the investment will be west and the east, but that is not how things are. Many spread for benefit of the whole population served by patients in the east of Cornwall cross the border into the PCT. Devon for their health services; not only does that pose 395 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 396 Scilly) Scilly) [Dan Rogerson] Julia Goldsworthy: To follow up on my hon. Friend’s points about primary care trusts saying that the cost of transport problems, as I shall explain, but it also causes providing car parking needs to be recovered, is not the peak-time car parking difficulties at Derriford. The fact problem that, in some cases, the amount charged for that services are concentrated there—it is one of the parking is far in excess of the cost, and that trusts are largest hospitals in western Europe—may need to be generating an income, rather than simply covering their examined in future. costs? My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives mentioned the problems encountered by people living some distance Dan Rogerson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It away from major health care centres such as the Royal is fair to say that different trusts have taken different Cornwall hospital. A while ago, I came across a case views. For example, the Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust, involving an older lady in Camelford in my constituency. which covers Derriford hospital, has recently undertaken Having been prescribed a course of therapy in Truro, a review, and has introduced much cheaper shorter-stay she turned to the hospital transport system to get parking for visitors, which I welcome. The trust consulted herself there, but the cost became so prohibitive that widely before doing that. Unfortunately, probably because she decided to abandon the therapy. Although her of the financial pressures that we have discussed, in illness was not life threatening, it was enough to affect Truro the situation is different. I do not want to drag her quality of life. The therapy had been recommended the Minister too far into the specifics, but the barrier by health professionals: they said that it would benefit system introduced there means that people who are her, and it was something to which she was entitled on visiting for a long period, such as those who are visiting the NHS. The only thing that prevented her from taking a sick child in the hospital, may pay for 24 hours of advantage of the therapy was the fact of where she parking; however, if they leave the car park, going past lived. the barrier, during the day and come back in the evening, A truly national health service must reach into every they have to get a new ticket to get back in, although community in the country. Those of us who live in rural they have paid for 24 hours. That really adds to people’s areas know that, unlike those who live in urban areas, costs, and if anything can be done to look into that, it we cannot have all services right on our doorstep. There should be done. are other compensations about living in a rural environment We have heard a little bit from my hon. Friends the that people come to Cornwall—or stay there—to enjoy. Members for St. Ives, and for Falmouth and Camborne However, there is a baseline of provision in all public (Julia Goldsworthy), about the issues relating to the services that people ought to be able to expect, and new health care provision that is to be allocated to the health is no exception to that. For that reason, I would Falmouth and Camborne constituency. The model is a welcome anything that the Minister is able to say about walk-in surgery for harder-to-access groups. Of course hospital transport. there are issues to address; we have migrant workers in Hospital transport services come under threat when Cornwall, and anything that can be done to make sure fuel costs rise. Drivers get some money to provide those that we have adequate provision for everybody is all to services, but in effect they end up subsidising them the good. However, that proposal will divert resources when mileage allowances do not properly reflect the into setting up a facility that, as my hon. Friend the costs that they incur. That problem eased when fuel Member for St. Ives said, is really aimed at an urban prices fell recently, but it could return as they creep back area. There may well be a solution that would have up again. worked better in a rural area. In the past, Health Ministers have said that the problem relating to car parking provision needs to be My constituents in Bude-Stratton and Camelford addressed, as the NHS cannot be in the business of have been waiting for a long time to get decent medical providing subsidised car parking. They have added that centres in their area. Bude-Stratton is one of the most people need to accept that there is a cost to visiting remote towns in Cornwall. It has been pretty near the hospitals, but that is all very well where there is a public top of the list for a new medical centre for a while. It has transport alternative. In many areas, however, there is outgrown its older premises, and campaigners in the no such alternative to car use. area, such as Mrs. Candy Baker, have long fought to The problem is most acute for older people. So many make sure that the primary care trust is aware of that. It young people have left Cornwall that the county has an is below Camelford on the list, and I have arranged a ageing population, and that problem is predicted to get meeting, to be held in a few weeks’ time, at which worse. Many older people would prefer not to be forced to representatives from the local improvement finance trust use their car to travel the large distances involved in company—Community 1st Cornwall—community groups accessing health services, but that is what they have and, I hope, the PCT will come together to talk about to do. that situation. However, we have done that before, and At the meetings that I have had with PCT representatives, we are not that much further forward. Of course, in they have said that they are keen to work with the acute those communities, there may be land and planning trust and consider providing more community hospitals. issues that delay matters, but the resources that are That, of course, is something to be welcomed. There are being put into the sort of centre that my hon. Friend the many clinics, and there has been wider provision in Member for Falmouth and Camborne spoke about may some areas, but a lot more remains to be done on that. well have helped to overcome some of the problems, If the NHS were able to concentrate, in rural areas, on and might have taken us further forward in terms of trying to widen the range of services available in our health care provision. excellent community hospitals, that would make a great My hon. Friends the Members for St. Ives, and for contribution to overcoming the problem of access; transport Falmouth and Camborne have raised crucial issues seems to be proving a barrier. about accountability, which is not just about people 397 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 398 Scilly) Scilly) having confidence in the system as a whole, but about the NHS, and the hon. Gentleman rightly welcomed their being able to influence where those resources are that. However, we must ensure that funding is properly used and how they are spent locally. My hon. Friend managed. Very often that is done at a local level. the Member for Falmouth and Camborne and I are on The funding formula needs to be reviewed from time the Local Democracy, Economic Development and to time. As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, the review Construction Bill Committee, which has had great was overdue, but it has now taken place. Part of the discussions about the use of petitions. Upper gastrointestinal formula was set by the previous Conservative Government surgery, to which both hon. Friends have referred, is an and it was enormously unfair to certain areas. We have example of an issue on which people are petitioning put that right, which will result in Cornwall getting anyone whom they can think of, because they are not more money, as he recognised. He put his case fairly, as quite sure where the accountability lies. Despite having did the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson). gone through the processes, and having become far The hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia greater experts on health funding than many hon. Members Goldsworthy) indulged in a bit of party political in this House—campaigners become experts during the knockabout. Somewhere in the knockabout were a few course of their campaign—those campaigners will probably serious points, but when she got to them, they struggled feel that they do not have the influence over decisions to get out. One thing on which I agree with her is that it that they would like. That is a problem for us all. is important that we congratulate NHS staff on their My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives mentioned dedication and hard work. They are improving the midwifery services. The situation is exactly the same in quality of services in Cornwall and across the country, North Cornwall. As the father of three children under and they are working hard to do so. the age of five, all of whom were born, by Caesarean section, in the Royal Cornwall hospital in Truro, I am As medical science continues to advance, the NHS well familiar with the services, and the excellent work becomes capable of ever more extraordinary feats of that the staff there do. However, looking at the period clinical care. For some complex procedures, well-equipped covering those three deliveries, I have to say that I have and well-staffed specialist centres are more effective. noticed that the staff are perhaps a little more stretched There, round-the-clock consultant and specialist nurse than they were when my eldest son was born in 2004. expertise can be assured and expensive technology can be concentrated. An increasing amount of care is happening Community midwifery services have played a fantastic in the NHS, and much of it is out in the community in role. Arwen Folkes has driven forward the “real baby GP practices, health centres and people’s homes, with milk” campaign in Cornwall, and I think that it is being more complex, specialist or emergency care concentrated rolled out in other trusts across the country. She very in a few more specialist centres. However, Ministers or much welcomes the opportunity to work alongside civil servants in Whitehall do not decide the organisation midwives to provide that service. Sure Start benefited in of local health care. It is decided by local health care North Cornwall from having a midwifery service, but it professionals on the ground. Organisational changes has had to be withdrawn because of the overstretch in must be based on medical grounds and what is best for midwifery. I hope that that issue can be resolved. local patient care. Finally, I refer to mental health. We could spend a whole evening discussing that. The Cornwall Partnership Finance is one of the key issues. The NHS has Trust has had to deal with problems relating to learning benefited from an unprecedented growth in finance. disability, but it is now moving beyond them. I have had When the Government first came to power, health the privilege of seeing a number of new facilities that it spending was just £426 per head. In 2010-11, it will be has opened, which is good, but the community services £1,612. In 2009-10 and 2010-11, primary care trusts will in particular are extremely overstretched. The fundamental be allocated £164 billion. That means that, on average, problem is that resources have had to go into the Royal PCTs will receive an increase of more than 11 per Cornwall hospital at Treliske. Until the financial situation cent.—actually, 11.3 per cent.—or an extra £8.6 billion. is resolved, the partnership trust will not be able to The people who are best placed to make decisions are deliver the sort of community mental health services those closest to it, and more than 80 per cent. of the that we would like to see. entire NHS budget is now in the hands of local PCTs—a higher proportion than ever before, under any Government. 6.20 pm The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike Andrew George: Will the Minister give way? O’Brien): I was wondering how long it would take before I was called to speak. The hon. Member for Mr. O’Brien: I shall, but I was just going to go on to St. Ives (Andrew George) put his argument fairly.Essentially, the hon. Gentleman’s precise point, so I shall happily he said that the area had received a significant increase give way in a moment. in funding, but it was not enough. I have a great deal of The hon. Gentleman’s point was about the formula, sympathy with his case. The Government clearly have a and the independent Advisory Committee on Resource funding target. It will take time—I shall explain why—to Allocation is made up of GPs, NHS management and reach that target. academics. It developed the fair funding formula to The hon. Gentleman argued the case well. It is incumbent determine each PCT’s share of resources, and the new on the Government to ensure that we put in place the funding formula has been used for the 2009-10 and right formula and the adjustments that that requires. 2010-11 allocations. It takes account of the new information Both increases and, as he rightly said, decreases over and builds upon and improves the previous formula so time for some areas, or at least smaller increases than that it continues to meet the objectives of equal access they might have expected, need to be phased in. As for equal need and the reduction of health inequalities. everyone knows, there is no unlimited pot of money. The review leading to ACRA’s recommendations was The Government have tripled the funding going into comprehensive and led to important changes. 399 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 400 Scilly) Scilly) [Mr. Mike O’Brien] and have lived in the area at least for a period. That does not always happen, but that is because the commission When a new funding formula is introduced, the distance is trying to get a balanced membership. between a PCT’s target allocation and its actual allocation One party will say, “Cut this and provide increases will change. Its actual allocation may move from being for that”; that is always part of political debate. The key over-target to under-target or vice versa; it all depends point is that as a result of the Government’s changes, on the relative need of the PCT’s population, as determined the hon. Gentleman’s PCT is looking at larger funding by the new formula. A change in target allocation does increases than those for many other areas of the country. not mean that a PCT loses out—far from it; the new The PCT funding allocation for Cornwall and the Isles formula affects a PCT’s funding target and not, initially, of Scilly is £808.4 million for this financial year and the money that it actually receives. We are committed to £856.2 million for 2010-11; in 2006, it received £1,227 per moving PCTs closer to a fairer share over time. head and it received £1,488 per head this financial year. I know that the hon. Gentleman feels that his local Furthermore, it will receive £1,558 per head next year. PCT should have been moved more quickly towards its There will be a steady improvement in the PCT’s target, and that is a fair point. However, there must finances. The NHS in Cornwall is relatively healthy. always be a need to balance continuity and stability in Staff there are working enormously hard and making NHS funding. If a PCT is under-target, it will benefit an enormous contribution. The funding for them is from higher growth than others. The amount that local increasing; they can look forward to that increase as a PCTs, such as his, receive will increase at a higher rate result of the decisions made following the review. The than it will for those that are in the opposing position draft end-year accounts of the hon. Gentleman’s PCT and being paid over-target. and acute trusts show surpluses of approximately What matters is not the distance from target but the £5.6 million and £2 million respectively, so there is still levels of increased actual funding. I know that there is a some latitude in the budgets. However, I appreciate that historical issue as a result of the very issues that the some PCTs want to put aside cash and roll it over to hon. Gentleman raised, but to rectify any alleged fund particular projects later. underfunding would effectively mean reopening all the previous allocation rounds, and we are not in a position Andrew George: I am not begrudging the increases to do that. We must recognise that we are where we are that the Minister has just mentioned; indeed, I welcomed and have to have a fair and reasonable funding formula them in my opening remarks. However, the proportion for the areas to which it applies. Furthermore, we must of funding available to Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly not in any way undermine the stability of NHS funding is still significantly distant—6.2 per cent.—from its and long-term planning, either in areas such as his, ultimate target. The acute trust is clearly not just in a which benefit from the new criteria, or in areas that do recurring balance; it is also paying back some of the not receive the increase that, up to now, they had historic debt. He may argue that the situation is due to expected. past mismanagement—not that local communities made the decisions—but the fact is that Cornwall has been Andrew George: I am very grateful to the Minister for chronically underfunded in comparison with the rest of giving way. I think that I acknowledged in my opening the country, and that is clearly the primary cause of the remarks much of what he has said. I have two questions. pressure on mental health, dentistry and other services First, he said that the PCTs were taking the relevant there. It would be helpful if he acknowledged that that decisions, and he described that as in some way local. is a likely outcome of a long period of historic relative However, those people are appointed indirectly by the underfunding. Government and are not accountable to the local community, so I should welcome his thoughts on whether Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman and I could stand Cornwall might be one of the pilot areas where more here and knock seven bells out of the previous Conservative local decision-making takes place. Administration, saying that their funding formula was Secondly, on the formula itself, I acknowledge that awful and that they are to blame for a lot of the Cornwall’s allocation is going up not by 11.3 per cent. problems in the health service. We can both agree on but by 12.4 per cent., which is clearly welcome and that, but I am not sure that it will take us very far. We above the national average. However, it is only a small have to deal with the current problems. The situation is degree above, and the county will take years to get even not just one in which the Government can decide to give close to its target. Does the Minister not agree that a lot of extra money to one area; the funding is allocated. some of those national programmes, such as the alternative The issue is devolved and pushed down to the PCTs. If provider medical services roll-out, the independent treatment we take funding from one area to give to another area centres and so on, involve decisions that would be far such as Cornwall, we will create problems for that first better taken in the local community by local people, area. and that it would be far better to apportion that money The best way of managing the situation is by making in order to move PCTs much more quickly towards it clear that we recognise when there is a strong and their target? good case, and we have been clear that Cornwall has a good case. We have acknowledged that and increased Mr. O’Brien: On the question of PCT members, the the funding steadily to bring it up to the target that we hon. Gentleman is aware that an independent appointments want to hit, without damaging other areas. We want to commission deals with such matters. Ministers do not make sure that the issue is addressed over a period of determine who joins those committees, and the aim is time. We can rehearse this argument time and again, but that, wherever possible, people should be appointed that is essentially how the Government approach it. locally. I take that view and encourage the appointments Such an approach is a perfectly reasonable way to commission to ensure that people are genuinely local ensure NHS funding stability. 401 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 402 Scilly) Scilly) Andrew George rose— hon. Gentleman is right to say that we are looking forward to the report of Professor Jimmy Steele in the Mr. O’Brien: I give way for the last time. not-too-distant future. I hope that as a result of that we will see even further improvements in how dentistry is Andrew George: I am grateful to the Minister; he is dealt with. being extremely patient, and I appreciate that. Recent new dentistry investments include the Of course, one’s view of reasonableness depends on appointment of three new dentists in Truro and one in from which end of the telescope one is looking at the Falmouth in July and August 2008, and the opening of matter. The Minister says that things will happen “over a new practice in Launceston with capacity for 5,000 a period of time”. How long does he anticipate that it patients in February 2009. March saw another tranche will take for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly ultimately of new practices opened, providing services for 7,000 to reach these targets at the current rate of progress? new patients in Newquay, 2,000 in Bodmin and 4,500 in Torpoint. In April, a new practice opened in St. Austell Mr. O’Brien: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a with capacity for 7,000 patients. I understand that it will precise period. Assuming that we stay in office and the be officially opened by the chief dental officer, Barry other lot do not get in—sadly for him, I am not talking Cockcroft, later this month. The PCT is continuing that about his lot—we will steadily increase NHS funding. programme of expansion, and over the next 12 months We all know about the issues in relation to the wider it will provide dental services for an additional 8,160 political debate and the fact that the main Opposition patients across Liskeard, Tregony, St. Ives, Bodmin, party does not have a good record on the NHS, so it Threemilestone and Truro. That represents a fair amount depends to some extent on what happens in the future. of work and investment being put into the area. However, we are committed to moving towards the The hon. Member for North Cornwall made a couple targets. We accept the funding formula that has been of points that I wish to engage him on. The first was agreed, and as a result, over a period of time, Cornwall about hospital transport, and he was absolutely right will steadily benefit from those changes. about rural areas. I represent an area that has a large The hon. Gentleman raised several other issues apart rural hinterland, and it is enormously important that from finance, including dentistry and midwifery. On people can get access to transport to a hospital. We midwifery, Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT has invested need to work harder to ensure that PCTs recognise the an extra £1.6 million in maternity services in the three importance of ensuring that transport arrangements years from 2008-09. Women in Cornwall ought to have are in place, particularly when services are located in the choice as to where they have their baby, whether at a tertiary and high-skill hospitals, as is often safer. The midwifery-led unit or at home, and in the years ahead distance involved needs to be taken into account to we want to ensure that they do have that choice. He says ensure that we do not increase risk. It is all very well to that it is not always available, but in my experience that say that a patient is safer when they get to such a is sometimes because people have not been informed or hospital, but getting them there is also a problem, simply do not know that they have a degree of choice particularly if access to transport is not easy. It is about where they can give birth. There is a real need for important that PCTs recognise that they need to take better information and better engagement with local serious account of transport in rural areas. communities. We need to ensure that PCTs are out there The hon. Gentleman also mentioned car parking, telling people about the choices that they can have. and he made the fair point that patients and primarily Sometimes those choices are not exercised for the visitors complain that they have to pay for parking convenience of the system—because it is easier, safer when they go to a hospital. They ask, “Isn’t this supposed and so on to have children in hospitals, or so some to be a free NHS?” I, too, have had constituents come think. Choice should be given to women, and it is and complain to me, asking, “Why are we paying for car important that it is available and publicised. park charges in the local hospital?” As he said, they get As for dentistry, people in Cornwall are still unable to very annoyed, particularly if they are making long access an NHS dentist as quickly as they would like. visits, perhaps to a child who has to stay in for a long The latest figures show that Cornwall and Isles of Scilly time. PCT saw fewer patients in the past two years than the The hon. Gentleman’s point was fair, and there is a national average. I can see that there is an issue in that reasonable debate to be had about the matter, but I regard, because that represents 51 per cent. of the would respond that there is still a choice to be made on population as against 53 per cent for England as a budgets. He and others have talked about budget limitations, whole. The PCT knows that access to NHS dentistry is and there will always be such limitations. We all know an important issue for it. In 2007, it produced an oral that NHS inflation is a particular problem in relation to health strategy, and it is working to further grow its the costs of medicine. There will therefore always be services and to promote oral health. We can already see pressures on NHS budgets, despite the fact that we have the difference being made. In March 2008, the PCT had tripled the amount of money going in. 1,800 patients waiting for an NHS dentist; now, there There will always be decisions to be made, and it is are only 160 patients. That is 160 too many, but progress important that they are made locally. PCTs must recognise is being made. that there is a choice, and that they are better off The PCT is committed to making sure that everyone spending money on patient care than on car parks. who wants NHS treatment is able to get it, and its There is a high cost to car parks through building, current and future plans will provide services for around maintenance, servicing, safeguarding, insurance and so 33,800 additional patients. The PCT has received an on. In principle, it is better that the funding goes to additional £2.5 million—an 11 per cent increase—in its patient care. However, there is always a balance to be dental allocation. That is a pretty good increase. The struck, and the costs that visitors and patients pay 403 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 17 JUNE 2009 NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of 404 Scilly) Scilly) [Mr. Mike O’Brien] Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. When we examine access to health care in future, we should be reasonable, with account taken of the pressures need to bear in mind transport and transport costs for on people who have to go to hospitals regularly. The patients. I agree that, when we review NHS funding and charging of very large sums to people who have to visit priorities, access and transport should be included. Not on a daily basis for a prolonged period because only transport in rural areas but car parking and the oftheir circumstances is often unfair. PCTs have to problems with it should be part of the equation. examine that in the context of the pressures on a local I hope that the debate has gone at least some way hospital. towards reassuring the hon. Member for St. Ives that funding for Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT has not Dan Rogerson: I would not expect the Minister to been eroded by the Government with deliberate intent. have answers about hospital transport straight away. On the contrary, we want more funding to go to Cornwall. Primary care trusts operate in a framework of Government We must ensure that we balance the priorities in the policy, and that is fine because we have a national NHS budget, but the hon. Gentleman made his point health service, but it means that they tend to concentrate fairly and I hope that I responded fairly. Investment will on aspects that they have been asked to deliver as continue in Cornwall. The underfunding—which I do priorities. Transport to health services may not currently not dispute—will be tackled and services in Cornwall be at the top of the Government’s agenda, and all I ask will continue to develop in new and innovative ways, in is that the Government take it into account in ongoing line with people’s expectations of the NHS in the reviews and, if they find good models, to ensure that 21st century. The future for Cornwall NHS looks better best practice is shared. It is important to get it right for the changes in the funding formula. because, although those who need in-depth treatment Question put and agreed to. or surgery will get themselves to hospital somehow, those with something that is not life-threatening may, like the lady in Camelford, choose not to go. That is 6.47 pm part of the problem that prevents good outcomes. House adjourned. 405 17 JUNE 2009 Deferred Division 406

Deferred Division Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Hancock, Mr. Mike McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Hanson, rh Mr. David McDonnell, John EXTERNAL SERVICE Harris, Dr. Evan McFadden, rh Mr. Pat That this House takes note of European Union Document Harvey, Nick McFall, rh John No. 5289/09, Commission Communication on the Development Havard, Mr. Dai McGrady, Mr. Eddie and Consolidation of the External Service: Implementation of Healey, rh John McIsaac, Shona Measures for 2008; and endorses the Government’s policy of Heath, Mr. David McKechin, Ann support for the developments to the European Commission’s Hemming, John McKenna, Rosemary external service in 2009. Hendrick, Mr. Mark McNulty, rh Mr. Tony The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 160. Heppell, Mr. John Meale, Mr. Alan Division No. 151] Hesford, Stephen Merron, Gillian Heyes, David Michael, rh Alun AYES Hill, rh Keith Miliband, rh David Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miliband, rh Edward Abbott, Ms Diane Clelland, Mr. David Holmes, Paul Miller, Andrew Ainger, Nick Clwyd, rh Ann Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffatt, Laura Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hope, Phil Mole, Chris Alexander, Danny Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Moore, Mr. Michael Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Connarty, Michael Howarth, David Morgan, Julie Allen, Mr. Graham Cook, Frank Howarth, rh Mr. George Mountford, Kali Anderson, Mr. David Cooper, rh Yvette Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mudie, Mr. George Anderson, Janet Cousins, Jim Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mulholland, Greg Armstrong, rh Hilary Crausby, Mr. David Hughes, rh Beverley Mullin, Mr. Chris Atkins, Charlotte Creagh, Mary Hughes, Simon Munn, Meg Austin, Mr. Ian Cryer, Mrs. Ann Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cummings, John Hunter, Mark Norris, Dan Baird, Vera Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hutton, rh Mr. John O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Baker, Norman Cunningham, Tony Iddon, Dr. Brian O’Hara, Mr. Edward Balls, rh Ed Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Illsley, Mr. Eric Oaten, Mr. Mark Banks, Gordon Davey, Mr. Edward Irranca-Davies, Huw Olner, Mr. Bill Barron, rh Mr. Kevin David, Mr. Wayne Jenkins, Mr. Brian Öpik, Lembit Beckett, rh Margaret Davidson, Mr. Ian Johnson, rh Alan Osborne, Sandra Begg, Miss Anne Davies, Mr. Quentin Johnson, Ms Diana R. Pearson, Ian Beith, rh Sir Alan Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Helen Plaskitt, Mr. James Bell, Sir Stuart Denham, rh Mr. John Jones, Mr. Kevan Pope, Mr. Greg Benn, rh Hilary Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jones, Lynne Pound, Stephen Benton, Mr. Joe Dobbin, Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Prentice, Mr. Gordon Berry, Roger Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Joyce, Mr. Eric Price, Adam Betts, Mr. Clive Doran, Mr. Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Primarolo, rh Dawn Blackman, Liz Dowd, Jim Keeley, Barbara Prosser, Gwyn Blizzard, Mr. Bob Durkan, Mark Keen, Ann Pugh, Dr. John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Eagle, Angela Keetch, Mr. Paul Purchase, Mr. Ken Borrow, Mr. David S. Eagle, Maria Kelly, rh Ruth Reed, Mr. Andy Brake, Tom Efford, Clive Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Reed, Mr. Jamie Breed, Mr. Colin Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kidney, Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan Brennan, Kevin Engel, Natascha Knight, rh Jim Rennie, Willie Brooke, Annette Farrelly, Paul Kramer, Susan Riordan, Mrs. Linda Brown, Lyn Farron, Tim Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, Angus Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robertson, John Brown, Mr. Russell Flello, Mr. Robert Laws, Mr. David Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Browne, rh Des Flint, rh Caroline Laxton, Mr. Bob Rogerson, Dan Browne, Mr. Jeremy Flynn, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Bryant, Chris Follett, Barbara Lepper, David Rowen, Paul Buck, Ms Karen Foster, Mr. Don Levitt, Tom Roy, Mr. Frank Burden, Richard Foster, Mr. Michael Linton, Martin Roy, Lindsay Burnham, rh Andy (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony Ruane, Chris Burstow, Mr. Paul Gapes, Mike Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Russell, Bob Butler, Ms Dawn Gardiner, Barry Love, Mr. Andrew Russell, Christine Cable, Dr. Vincent Gerrard, Mr. Neil Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Gidley, Sandra Mackinlay, Andrew Sanders, Mr. Adrian Campbell, Mr. Alan Gilroy, Linda Mactaggart, Fiona Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Goggins, rh Paul Malik, Mr. Shahid Seabeck, Alison Caton, Mr. Martin Goldsworthy, Julia Mallaber, Judy Sheerman, Mr. Barry Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goodman, Helen Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Challen, Colin Griffith, Nia Marsden, Mr. Gordon Simon, Mr. Siôn Chapman, Ben Griffiths, Nigel Martlew, Mr. Eric Skinner, Mr. Dennis Clapham, Mr. Michael Gwynne, Andrew Mason, John Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Clark, Paul Hain, rh Mr. Peter McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, Ms Angela C. Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hall, Mr. Mike McCabe, Steve (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hall, Patrick McCafferty, Chris Smith, Geraldine Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Jacqui 407 Deferred Division17 JUNE 2009 Deferred Division 408

Smith, Sir Robert Waltho, Lynda Hague, rh Mr. William Ottaway, Richard Snelgrove, Anne Ward, Claire Hammond, Stephen Paice, Mr. James Soulsby, Sir Peter Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Hands, Mr. Greg Paterson, Mr. Owen Southworth, Helen Watts, Mr. Dave Harper, Mr. Mark Penning, Mike Spellar, rh Mr. John Webb, Steve Hayes, Mr. John Penrose, John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Weir, Mr. Mike Heald, Mr. Oliver Pickles, Mr. Eric Stewart, Ian Whitehead, Dr. Alan Heathcoat-Amory, rh Prisk, Mr. Mark Stoate, Dr. Howard Wicks, rh Malcolm Mr. David Randall, Mr. John Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hendry, Charles Redwood, rh Mr. John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Williams, Mr. Roger Herbert, Nick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Stringer, Graham Williams, Stephen Hoban, Mr. Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robertson, Hugh Stuart, Ms Gisela Willis, Mr. Phil Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Holloway, Mr. Adam Robertson, Mr. Willott, Jenny Swinson, Jo Howard, rh Mr. Michael Laurence Wills, rh Mr. Michael Tami, Mark Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robinson, Mrs. Iris Wilson, Phil Taylor, David Howell, John Robinson, rh Mr. Winnick, Mr. David Thornberry, Emily Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Peter Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hurd, Mr. Nick Rosindell, Andrew Tipping, Paddy Wishart, Pete Jack, rh Mr. Michael Scott, Mr. Lee Todd, Mr. Mark Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Jackson, Mr. Stewart Selous, Andrew Touhig, rh Mr. Don Woolas, Mr. Phil Kawczynski, Daniel Shapps, Grant Trickett, Jon Wright, Mr. Anthony Key, Robert Simpson, David Ussher, Kitty Wright, David Kirkbride, Miss Julie Simpson, Mr. Keith Vaz, rh Keith Wright, Dr. Tony Knight, rh Mr. Greg Soames, Mr. Nicholas Walley, Joan Wyatt, Derek Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Lancaster, Mr. Mark Spicer, Sir Michael NOES Leigh, Mr. Edward Spink, Bob Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Spring, Mr. Richard Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Lewis, Dr. Julian Stanley, rh Sir John Amess, Mr. David Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Streeter, Mr. Gary Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Cormack, Sir Patrick Ian Stuart, Mr. Graham Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Lidington, Mr. David Swayne, Mr. Desmond Atkinson, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Swire, Mr. Hugo Baldry, Tony Curry, rh Mr. David Loughton, Tim Syms, Mr. Robert Barker, Gregory Davies, Mr. Dai Luff, Peter Tapsell, Sir Peter Baron, Mr. John Davies, David T.C. Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Timpson, Mr. Edward Benyon, Mr. Richard (Monmouth) Maclean, rh David Turner, Mr. Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Main, Anne Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Binley, Mr. Brian Dodds, Mr. Nigel Mates, rh Mr. Michael Vaizey, Mr. Edward Blunt, Mr. Crispin Dorries, Nadine May, rh Mrs. Theresa Vara, Mr. Shailesh Bone, Mr. Peter Drew, Mr. David McCrea, Dr. William Viggers, Sir Peter Boswell, Mr. Tim Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain McIntosh, Miss Anne Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Bottomley, Peter Evans, Mr. Nigel McLoughlin, rh Mr. Walker, Mr. Charles Brady, Mr. Graham Evennett, Mr. David Patrick Wallace, Mr. Ben Brazier, Mr. Julian Fabricant, Michael Mercer, Patrick Waterson, Mr. Nigel Brokenshire, James Field, Mr. Mark Miller, Mrs. Maria Watkinson, Angela Burns, Mr. Simon Fraser, Christopher Milton, Anne Wiggin, Bill Burrowes, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Willetts, Mr. David Burt, Alistair Garnier, Mr. Edward Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wilson, Mr. Rob Butterfill, Sir John Gauke, Mr. David Mundell, David Wilson, Sammy Cameron, rh Mr. David Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Murrison, Dr. Andrew Winterton, Ann Campbell, Mr. Gregory Goodwill, Mr. Robert Neill, Robert Winterton, Sir Nicholas Carswell, Mr. Douglas Gray, Mr. James Newmark, Mr. Brooks Yeo, Mr. Tim Cash, Mr. William Green, Damian Osborne, Mr. George Young, rh Sir George Chope, Mr. Christopher Greening, Justine Clappison, Mr. James Greenway, Mr. John Clark, Greg Grieve, Mr. Dominic Question accordingly agreed to. 69WH 17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 70WH

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): Westminster Hall I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. To give a consumer perspective from the north, Glasgow airport is targeting people living in the north of England Wednesday 17 June 2009 who tend to travel to Manchester to catch a flight. Glasgow is closer for some, as well as cheaper, given that Scotland and England have different school holidays. [MR.GARY STREETER in the Chair] I welcome the initiative of targeting those people to get them to travel from Glasgow, rather than from Manchester, Regional Aviation Policy London or anywhere else. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr. Watts.) Phil Wilson: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. What is absolutely apparent from my research—I have an airport in my constituency as well—is the importance 9.30 am of regional connectivity not just to Heathrow, but to Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): I thank the Speaker other airports in the country and globally. for selecting this important subject for debate and it is a Assuming that aviation continues to grow in line with pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr. Streeter. I also Government forecasts and historical trends of the past welcome the Minister to his new post. decade, aviation’s contribution to GDP will rise to some I shall be discussing the importance of regional aviation £19.7 billion by 2010. It is the backdrop to a vibrant policy in the context of its impact on regional economic industry, but it is also an industry that is itself facing development. No one can deny that we live in a world challenges in the UK regions, and those challenges are where economic relationships between countries and having an impact on the UK’s regional economies. continents are more globalised than ever before. In such There are 22 regional airports outside the south-east, a world, connectivity is paramount. Communications and they carry more than 500,000 passengers a year. are now instant; we think nothing of turning on the The main aviation challenge facing the regions is the news to watch a live TV interview with somebody on lack of connectivity between their airports and Heathrow. the other side of the planet. Likewise, reaching the In 1995, Heathrow served 21 domestic destinations. other side of the world in person is much easier than it Today it serves only six: Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow, has ever been thanks to air travel. It is estimated that Newcastle, Edinburgh and Aberdeen. Leeds Bradford more than half the UK’s population fly at least once a in Yorkshire and Durham Tees Valley airport in my year, whether on holiday, to visit family and friends or constituency ran flights to Heathrow until this February, on business. when BMI withdrew those services. Today, Schiphol Business-to-business connectivity is part of what makes airport in Amsterdam and Paris Charles de Gaulle the globalised economy go round. It is important to the serve more regional airports in the UK than does UK as a major trading nation and equally important to Heathrow—Schiphol serves 19 UK destinations and our regional economies. Aviation is a crucial part of the Paris CDG 14. UK’s goods distribution network, playing a particularly I find it bizarre that UK regional airports must rely strong role, for example, in the movement of high-value on international hubs outside the UK to gain access to freight. Some 30 per cent. of UK exports by value are the wider world. A briefing from BAA bills Heathrow transported by air. Heathrow is the world’s second as the UK’s global gateway. I cannot see how that is true biggest cargo handling airport. More than half the when fewer UK regional airports have access to Heathrow UK’s total air freight passes through it, which means than to Holland and France. that the remaining 50 per cent. leaves through other regional airports. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): On that point, Aviation plays a vital role in connecting the UK’s does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is an regions to London and, through direct international environmental irony at play? The environmental movement links, to the global markets. The Airport Operators says that we should not provide access to internal Association estimates that the airports that it represents aviation within the UK, but that simply forces people to handle more than 228 million passengers. According to fly east before going west, which is obviously worse for a CBI submission to the Select Committee on Transport their carbon footprint than if they made direct journeys inquiry into the future of aviation, CBI members, from here. particularly in Scotland and Northern Ireland, regard air links with London as very important for their businesses. Phil Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In fact, 73 per cent. of respondents to a survey of City I will come to that point later. of London businesses said that air services were either critical or very important in providing direct contact David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): with clients and service providers, and 64 per cent. said What the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit that they were either critical or very important to internal Öpik) says is undeniable, but what underpins planning company business. for aviation is the aviation White Paper launched in The aviation industry makes a major contribution to December 2003 by the now Chancellor of the Exchequer, the UK economy. Oxford Economic Forecasting which discussed stringent environmental controls on demonstrated in 2006 that the industry contributed regional airports, as the London airports, by and large, £11.4 billion to UK gross domestic product in 2004. In are designated, so the Secretary of State for Transport addition, the aviation industry directly and indirectly can do something about unacceptable environmental supports 700,000 jobs. downsides such as night noise. Is that not the problem? 71WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 72WH

[David Taylor] airport would be a disaster on virtually every level? Despite that, it is being promoted heavily by many East Midlands airport is one such regional airport. Conservative MPs from Essex and the Conservative We welcome its jobs, low-cost flights and other benefits, Mayor of London? but we do not welcome the freight noise that affects communities around the periphery of the airport and Phil Wilson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We under its flight path. However, there is no respite and no should consider existing flexibility in airport infrastructure control from an effective local master plan. so that we can make what we have work. I will use Durham Tees Valley airport in my constituency Phil Wilson: The environmental aspects are important, as an example. There are important links between the but looking into the future, the technology and the Tees valley and Heathrow. The economy of the Tees kinds of aircraft coming on stream might help to mitigate valley is based on the largest integrated process industrial those environmental impacts. It is an issue, but the complex in the UK. It contains industries specialising industry is trying to tackle it. in petrochemicals, energy, renewable energy, biofuel and steel-making. It has the third largest port in the UK. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ There is also a world-class advanced engineering industry, Co-op): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s optimism which is based on the design, construction and maintenance about what the industry might do, but the proposals of petrochemical plants, steel works, power stations and and suggestions for improvements are still on the drawing major infrastructure such as bridges. In addition, the board and the practical consequences are very much of region has the Wilton centre, which is Europe’s largest the type suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for non-military private sector research centre. The North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor). I suggest petrochemical industry alone contributes £3.5 billion to that my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Sedgefield the UK economy and 70,000 UK jobs depend on it. (Phil Wilson) take more account of those concerns in In Sedgefield, NETPark boasts cutting-edge technology relation to the policies that he is advocating. in high-value goods production that is showing the way in new industries such as printable electronics Phil Wilson: I will take account of them, but the main and nanotechnologies. The Saudi Basic Industries point that I want to convey concerns the future growth Corporation—SABIC—is constructing the world’s largest of regional economies and the importance of regional low-density polyethylene plant at Wilton with an investment airports to that. Because of the lack of capacity at of £200 million. The Biofuels Corporation operates the Heathrow, aeroplanes are now stacking above London, world’s largest biodiesel plant at Seal Sands and Ensus which has an impact on the environment as well. There is constructing the world’s largest bioethanol plant there. are a lot of issues that we need to take into consideration. A pipeline is expected, which will deliver £4 billion Moving on to the reasons for the anomaly, many UK through renewable energy plants, biofuel plants and airports are operating at the limit of their capacity. advanced engineering. The integrated chemical complex, Heathrow is full up, operating at 99 per cent. of capacity, which was formerly owned by ICI, is now owned by compared to other European hubs, which operate at 26 multinational companies such as SABIC, Dow, about 70 per cent. Heathrow has only two runways, Huntsman, Avecia, Johnson Matthey and GrowHow. while Frankfurt and Paris CDG have four and Schiphol We must consider the jobs provided and exports five. That has implications for Heathrow’s ability to produced by world-class multinational companies such continue functioning effectively as an international hub. as AMEC, Whessoe, Aker Kvaerner, Cleveland Bridge Operating so close to the limits of capacity means that and K Home Engineering. The north-east is the only the airport’s resilience—for example, the ability to cope English region that exports more than it imports, yet with unforeseen circumstances such as adverse weather the local airport does not have access to Heathrow—the conditions or significant flight delays—is limited. UK’s global gateway. Air traffic is predicted to continue growing, so it is essential that action is taken to ensure that the UK’s Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): competitiveness is not undermined. The macro-economic Does the hon. Gentleman intend to speak about aviation benefits of capacity expansion at Heathrow were quantified in the context of other modes of transport? Lord Adonis by Oxford Economic Forecasting in its October 2006 is a great advocate of high-speed rail. The region that report, which found that a third runway at Heathrow the hon. Gentleman represents is exceptionally well would generate wider economic benefits estimated at placed to benefit from the development of high-speed £7 billion in additional GDP per year. More recently, rail within a short time scale. the Government’s consultation document estimated net benefit of about £5 billion a year. That is why the third Phil Wilson: I welcome any ideas on high-speed rail, runway at Heathrow is, in my view, essential. However, but the current proposals will not be connected to the construction of the runway will take until 2018 or north-east. I think I am right that if all the trains we thereabouts to complete, so what do we do between have were filled with passengers who would otherwise now and then to help UK regional connectivity with have taken flights, Heathrow would still run at 90 per Heathrow? cent. capacity. High-speed rail might be part of the solution, but it is not the whole solution. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The economic factors must be balanced with the societal and environmental Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Yesterday, we considerations. We must always listen carefully to local had a debate on Heathrow and we are covering much of communities. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as a the same ground. Intermodal links are crucial. It is no measure to tackle the shortage of capacity, an estuary accident that Flybe, one of the most successful and 73WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 74WH profitable airlines in the current difficult market, has an has deemed it necessary to look at the wider economic absolute rule that it will not fly to airports where the rail impact on the regions, rather than focus narrowly on links take more than three hours. I urge the hon. Gentleman the regional airports. I look forward to hearing from the to read the report of yesterday’s debate. We must stay Minister when we will hear the results of the consultation. on the regional factors today and look at the problems Unlike the Opposition, the Government have not with the Oxford case. written off Durham Tees Valley airport, and thereby The hon. Gentleman should ask himself why the the Tees valley. One Opposition spokesman said that number of flights to Heathrow has increased while the north-east could not sustain two airports. We know the number of destinations has dropped. The airlines that their commitment to the regions is minimal because are maximising the use of a handful of extremely profitable they oppose the development of the third runway at routes. Heathrow. One of the key factors in BMI’s decision to terminate Phil Wilson: I will come to that last point and consider its flights to Heathrow from Durham Tees Valley was the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. the charging policy at Heathrow. At most hub airports Critics will say that Durham Tees Valley airport has around the world, domestic and short-haul services access to Schiphol airport in Holland. That is true and co-exist with long-haul networks, and landing charges welcome, but the problem with Schiphol is that it does are based on the take-off weight of the plane, with not connect with Australia, and its connectivity has smaller aircraft having lower landing charges than larger reduced by 45 per cent. to the middle east, 27 per cent. ones. At Heathrow, landing charges are the same, regardless to Asia and 31 per cent. to north America. It is not a of the size of the aircraft. I have christened that policy Heathrow substitute, but complements it. I understand “the poll tax with wings”. Heathrow airport is operating that there is pressure on Schiphol to limit its capacity in at capacity. Airlines make more money from long-haul the long term, which could reduce connectivity to the than short-haul flights and are therefore keen to use region even more. scarce slots for long-haul flights. The market strength of Heathrow therefore works against regional connectivity. Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend Central to BAA’s financial performance is its ability really telling me and the House that for his constituents to maximise ancillary revenues from areas such as retailing to travel to Heathrow, they have to go via Schiphol? and catering. That involves maximising passenger throughput at the airport. It is therefore in the interests Phil Wilson: That is true. If my constituents need to of BAA to encourage larger aircraft to operate from the get to Heathrow to get to Australasia, they could do airport at the expense of smaller ones, because there are that. It seems odd that we have to travel to international limited opportunities to grow the number of aircraft hubs outside the UK to gain access to the rest of the movements. world. The charging structure at Heathrow before the recent increase reflected those incentives. For example, a 49-seater Lembit Öpik: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Embraer RJ145 from Durham Tees Valley cost each any attempt to limit air travel by making it less convenient passenger £12.76 in landing charges, compared with to make intercontinental journeys from the UK is utterly £8.68 for an Airbus A330. The recent changes have naive? Price is a consideration, but the desire to make made the differential much worse. The increase in charges the journey is much more significant. People will find has a substantially greater impact on operating margins ways to make journeys by making changes outside the for short-haul services. Combined with the substantial UK, even if it is less environmentally friendly and more incentives for airlines at Heathrow to switch slots to time-consuming. long-haul services, that has resulted in the loss of flights between Heathrow and Durham Tees Valley. As a Phil Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is right. consequence, BMI made a commercial decision to withdraw its flights from Durham Tees Valley and is using those Paragraph 4.47 of the consultation document, slots to fly larger planes from Kiev, Tel Aviv and Riyadh. “Reforming the framework for the In response to these pressures, BMI puts pressure on economic regulation of UK airports” states: regional airports to reduce their landing charges, and “The crowding out of regional services from capacity constrained because those flights are important, the landing charges Heathrow is unlikely to have an adverse impact on regions providing are reduced. There is no longer any scope for further regional connectivity is maintained via alternative airports.” reductions, and consequently, increases in landing charges If the experience of Schiphol is anything to go by, I do at Heathrow make regional airports less profitable. The not believe that that statement is accurate. It is not in Department seems to be arguing against regulation in the interests of this country to encourage our nationals this area, which we should consider, because Heathrow’s to use another country’s airport as a hub. What does capacity is constrained and because the prime concern that say about our faith in Heathrow and our commitment is to ensure as many connections as possible between to the regions? Heathrow and the rest of the world. I believe there is a way through the problem. The That brings me back to my earlier point. How can Government are listening. The draft regulatory framework Heathrow be the UK’s global gateway if the vast majority has been put out to consultation. On 24 March, I had a of our regional airports do not have access to it? Lack meeting with the Minister’s predecessor, along with the of regulation, and people’s inability to think outside the Minister for the North East and my hon. Friend the box, have put us in a perverse situation in which British Member for Stockton, North (Frank Cook) and my regional airports are forced to link up with international right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Durham hubs in Holland and France, while Heathrow, the UK’s (Hilary Armstrong). We were told that the Department global gateway, is used to maximise profits for its Spanish 75WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 76WH

[Phil Wilson] They say that a PSO will be granted only if there is a risk to the commercial use of a slot, and that as long as owners. Meanwhile, multinational companies on Teesside a service is operating in a slot, they will not see a and elsewhere try to reach out to global markets. There commercial risk. So, they will grant a PSO only after may have been some thinking up to where we are now, the operator has withdrawn, by which time nobody is but I am afraid it has not been joined-up. seeking a PSO.

Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): If there were a third Phil Wilson: There is a lot of truth in what the hon. runway at Heathrow, which my colleagues do not Gentleman says, but I shall come to the faults of the support—[Interruption.] It would, for the reasons the PSO system and how they can be remedied. hon. Gentleman has given, be used for further intercontinental flights with maximum profit for the PSOs are part of the answer, but not the complete owners of the airport—[Interruption.] The right hon. answer. I understand that Durham Tees Valley airport Member for North-West Durham (Hilary Armstrong) is looking at the economics of having a PSO, but there continually talks from a sedentary position. If she wants are three parts to the equation. First, the PSO process is to make a speech, she should do so. Would not the third bureaucratic; secondly, if successful it secures only the runway simply be used to carry on existing practices, slots; thirdly, the landing charge system at Heathrow rather than to provide the regional slots the hon. Gentleman discriminates against regional flights. Those three issues wants? militate strongly against PSOs. If a subsidy is needed to pay for the landing charges, the cost is borne not by the Department for Transport, but by local authorities or Phil Wilson: Let me continue with my speech and I regional agencies such as regional development agencies, shall propose how we could prevent that from happening. whose primary purpose is not to subsidise landing Heathrow is a major national economic asset, but it is charges at Heathrow. That is why no region has successfully not available to half the country. The Government’s pursued a PSO at Heathrow. objectives include improving the economic performance of all English regions and reducing the gap in economic There are one or two PSOs in the highlands and growth rates between regions. How can those aims be islands of Scotland, and in Wales, I think, but there are achieved if we disadvantage peripheral regions that more than 250 in Europe. To ensure access to Heathrow have world-class industrial sectors, and if we fail to from peripheral regions and to help their economic regulate airports to safeguard links to regional airports? development, the Government should regulate to retain regional flights to Heathrow. In addition to the six Whole areas of the UK, including Teesside, Yorkshire, airports, a minimum of three return flights a day should the south-west and Wales, cannot access Heathrow and be allowed from Durham Tees Valley, Leeds Bradford, are directly disadvantaged as a result of their inability Plymouth, Newquay, Cardiff and Exeter. That would to gain access to world markets through that major require 15 slots a day, and would retain regional connectivity national asset. The draft regulatory framework, which to the peripheral regions. That is less than 1 per cent. of has just been out to consultation, suggests that the Heathrow’s capacity, which has about 480,000 slots. answer is a public service obligation, or PSO, but goes on to say, at paragraph 4.48, that The Government also need to discuss with BAA and the airlines a commercial tariff that will enable those “no applications to impose PSOs on London routes have since been received indicating that regional connectivity is perhaps not flights to take place based on the take-off weight of the such a significant issue, although concerns about regional connectivity aircraft. They should also amend the regulatory framework are raised with DfT from time to time”. in the interests of the whole UK to improve regional I suppose that means that debates such as this will be accessibility into Heathrow. The regions expect the forgotten after they finish, but I want the Minister to Government to ensure that Heathrow can be used by know that I will not forget this issue after this debate the whole of the UK. ends at 11 o’clock. I shall put to the Minister four other recommendations, The same paragraph states that which are also supported by the Northern Way and the “we do not believe additional policy interventions, either through Tees Valley joint strategy unit. First, the regulator’s the regulatory framework or otherwise, are necessary.” duties should be expanded to give the Civil Aviation Authority a general duty to promote access to air How many more regional airports must lose their access services throughout the UK from London Heathrow in to the UK’s global gateway before we realise that additional support of the Government’s commitment to regional policy intervention is required? The document then growth. discusses “comments received from the CAA who expressed the view that Secondly, using the duty, and recognising that the the maintenance of routes between regional airports and any economic benefits of domestic services contribute to particular airport should not be an obligation of the regulator. meeting the Government’s wider policy agenda, which The CAA further noted the Government’s capacity to impose is not currently reflected in the airline’s financial benefits PSOs on specific routes where necessary.” at price-regulated airports, regulation should be used to There should be an obligation on the CAA to regulate promote a differential in the level of airport charges for to save regional access to Heathrow. domestic services, compared with international services, under overall average yield per cap. Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Gentleman is being very Thirdly, The Secretary of State should use his ability generous in giving way. I seek to elicit further views to give direction to the regulator. That is an important from him on PSOs. Does he agree that the problem, or tool for shaping the regulatory regime to support, as far the reason why there are not applications for PSOs, is to as possible, the Government’s wider policy goals, including do with the Government’s attitude to granting them? those related to regional economic development. To 77WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 78WH avoid the risk of excessive interference from the Air Southwest is the sole airline operating from Plymouth, Government, I suggest that any draft directions should and it has slots at Gatwick and, most recently, at be published and should be subject to consultation London City airport, as well as a range of connections through open process. to other major cities. However, it no longer has access to Fourthly, I encourage the Government to consider Heathrow. There are concerns across the sector that the the case for PSO air services on the same basis as other trend of regional operators losing access to Heathrow EU member states, taking into account both the social could have a detrimental impact on regional economies, and financial benefits of air services. The potential for some of which are very fragile at the moment. Such air services from Heathrow to regional airports should concerns are not new. Indeed, as long ago as 1998, the be further investigated for slot protection through being then Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs designated as public service operations. Will the Minister Committee concluded that because runway capacity in get his civil servants to look again at the draft regulatory the south-east was in short supply, pressure would be framework, and ask them, under his political guidance, put on regional airports. to encourage some thinking outside the box? This issue I do not want to revisit the arguments for and against is about more than aviation, airports and airlines; it is the third runway at Heathrow, but the evidence suggests about the future economic growth of our regions, selling that, without additional capacity in London, economic our goods worldwide and remaining a global player. growth in the regions could be damaged. Offering It will be the best part of nine or 10 years before the Amsterdam Schiphol or Charles de Gaulle as an alternative first aeroplane taxis down the third runway. That is a does not work, because of the enhanced range of long time, but the issue of providing a decent service destinations offered by Heathrow and across London. from Heathrow to the regions needs to be sorted out Serious consideration needs to be given—again, my now; UK plc deserves that. All I ask for is some hon. Friend made this point—to the need to protect joined-up thinking. regional links into Heathrow as part of any future plans for a third runway and in relation to general capacity Several hon. Members rose— issues. As suggested, there could also be a role for the Mr. Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Front-Bench regulator. speeches will start at 10.30 am. Five colleagues seek to To preclude—indeed, to discourage—regional airlines catch my eye, and we have only half an hour left, so if from having access to Heathrow by making the slots they keep their speeches brief, that will be appreciated. extortionately expensive will not help the UK economy, Four people have given notification that they wish to and it certainly will not help the south-west. Despite the speak, so they will have priority. environmental concerns, air travel in the south-west is predicted to continue to grow. In a region where the 9.59 am strategic road and rail networks have historically been Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Devonport) (Lab): It is a underfunded and have inadequacies, air travel, whether pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first it involves Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth or Newquay, is time, Mr. Streeter. I also welcome my right hon. Friend essential. the Minister to his new post. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield David Taylor: Is it not the case that, economically (Phil Wilson) on securing the debate on an issue of and environmentally, a far better alternative to having broad interest. As he made clear in his opening remarks, more slots at Heathrow for regional airports is high-speed, the issue has influence locally, regionally, nationally and affordable and convenient trains, particularly for cities internationally.The south-west regional Select Committee, and regions that are within, for example, 500 km of of which I am Chairman, will carry out an inquiry into Heathrow? That would encompass the vast bulk of the transport across the region, which will undoubtedly population of England. Is that not the way forward, encompass the role of regional airports. rather than having more slots at Heathrow? I have a regional airport in my constituency, and I am therefore aware of the concerns expressed by local residents about the use of the airport and the environmental Alison Seabeck: I hear what my hon. Friend is saying, consequences of air travel. I am also aware of the wide but he clearly does not know the south-west very well. support that the airport received, both from constituents Frankly, the idea of our getting a high-speed rail link all and local businesses. I shall endeavour to express a wide the way down to Cornwall is simply not a runner in the range of views from Plymouth without in any way medium term. We may get it as far as Exeter or Bristol, pre-empting the future investigation of the regional but that does not work for Plymouth or Cornwall. We Select Committee, which will hopefully happen in about desperately need those regional air links. Cornwall is, of a month’s time. course, an objective 1 area and is one of the poorest I shall begin by talking about the issues that directly regions in the country. Without regional air links, I am affect Plymouth before looking at the wider south-west. afraid that businesses will not come to the far south-west. From Plymouth’s perspective, air services are generally I understand the environmental arguments, but this is a viewed as fundamentally important to the social and very difficult issue for our region. economic strength of our city. That view was clearly As I have said, road and rail are alternatives, but expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield those in the business community who want to conduct in relation to his area. The airport is a key element of business in London do not have five hours to spare to the city’s growth agenda, and its continued existence travel there either by car or train. It takes me five hours and future growth has been factored into assumptions door-to-door to get to London. A high-speed rail link made about our local economy. It provides—as do all would be fabulous, but in the short and medium term regional airports—vital connections into London. that is not going to happen. I want businesses to feel 79WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 80WH

[Alison Seabeck] to support the infrastructure and links into our regional airports and the regional airports themselves. I look that they can commute to Plymouth or London for forward to hearing wider evidence on the role of our business in a day, without having to rush or be utterly region’s airports during the Select Committee inquiry exhausted. and I, obviously, also look forward to hearing the Proposals for a runway extension at Plymouth would Minister’s response today. allow slightly larger planes to use the airport. That has some very strong support across the city and already 10.7 am much of the land required has been safeguarded. However, I suspect that that proposal is, again, unlikely to go Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): May I start ahead, because the costs run into tens of millions and by declaring an interest? I have been involved on a the pressure on the major funders is likely to make it financial basis with air taxi work. I also declare a deeper impossible. Genuine concerns would be raised both by interest in relation to the need to have a realistic attitude organisations representing residents who live close to towards aviation as a whole. There are powerful economic, the airport—such as the Derriford and Birdcage residents cultural and political reasons for connecting the world association—and, of course, environmental groups. with itself. The most sensible way of doing that is However, for the reasons that we have heard, regional through aviation. Last week, Oxford Economics launched flying could be less harmful to the environment than a report called “Aviation: the Real World Wide Web”, mainstream aviation. I am advised that the Dash 8 which contains some powerful arguments that are often aircraft currently flying in and out of Plymouth has fuel ignored in debates about aviation. Those arguments consumption equivalent to 70 miles per gallon per show that aviation has reduced many problems that we passenger. Many of those who use that aircraft would would face if we thought of ourselves in terms of being otherwise use a car. an individual country, rather than a global village. Why do we need a vibrant regional airport? Plymouth However, perhaps that is a debate for another time. is one of the drivers of the sub-regional economy and, We must be realistic about aviation. There is no as I have said, it borders on an objective 1 area. We have question—in fact, it is obvious—but we cannot control unemployment well above the regional level—the most demand for aviation simply by limiting the opportunity recent figures put it at 5.8 per cent. That is set against to fly internationally from the UK. All the evidence the city’s growth agenda, which still has a target of shows that flying is aspirational and motivating for increasing our population by 30,000 in the next 10 to 20 almost the entire British population. Fifty years ago, years, as well as increasing employment. To support only a small proportion of the population could afford that growth, there is a determination to encourage to fly, and that privilege has been opened up to a much inward investment. We have established a city development wider proportion of people. Indeed, as an island country, company which is supported by the regional development if we want to travel, we have to cross water. The Eurostar agency, and the city council has good links to other obviously connects us to France and further afield, but local business organisations. it is not practical to make every journey by train—even The regional development agency’s strategy in the if we had high-speed links, which I very much support. area is for there to be a developing role for most of Unless we adopt some sort of Talibanesque limitation the region’s airports, namely Newquay, Plymouth, on people’s right to travel, we have to accept the fundamental Bournemouth, Exeter, Staverton airport in Gloucestershire reality that aviation will continue to expand. —a much smaller airport—and Bristol. The priority is to address the issue of peripherality, which is why Mr. Brazier: On high-speed links, if Heathrow were regional airports are so important. The regional connected directly to the channel tunnel, through which development agency also understands the importance Air France will be running trains from 2012, does that of protecting routes into Heathrow and Gatwick by the not offer the opportunity to shift many of those using use of public service orders. Plymouth city council has short-haul flights from Heathrow on to the high-speed actively been pursuing the option of trying to get a link? public service order for Plymouth linking into Heathrow, but, so far, it has failed. My hon. Friend the Member Lembit Öpik: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and, for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy) and I have written hopefully, with my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes to Ministers, and I know that the hon. Member for (Norman Baker), who will summarise the official Liberal South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter), who is in the Chair Democrat position on these matters. Only a fool would today, has also tried to raise the issue through parliamentary pretend that high-speed rail links are inferior to aviation questions and other means. We would very much like to in terms of economic and practical benefits. The hon. have our route protected in that way. Gentleman is absolutely right. In an ideal world—when the Liberal Democrats take power in 2010—we will Mr. Carmichael: Was one of the Ministers to whom support the creation of a high-speed rail link which will, the hon. Lady wrote David Jamieson? Was she ever in large part, obviate the need for regional aviation in disappointed by the response she got from him as a the UK. It is not a sensible way to transport people on Minister? what is a relatively small island.

Alison Seabeck: The hon. Gentleman should do his David Taylor: I made one of the earliest predictions homework. Mr. Jamieson was my predecessor, so it that the likely outcome of the 2010 election would be a would have been a bit difficult for me to write to him. hung Parliament, possibly with the hon. Gentleman as I know that a number of hon. Members want to a compromise leader of the Administration. However, speak, so I shall conclude. If the Government are in a serious vein, I have heard him speak movingly and serious about supporting regional economies, they have effectively about the polluter paying and level runways 81WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 82WH for aviation. Is not taxation needed to ensure that voice in the collective interests of Britain. Within that, aviation compensates wider society for the environmental there is an interest in having a proper and positive downsides that it causes? No one is talking about banning strategy on international aviation. people from flying, but the actual costs should be reflected in the ticket price. 10.15 am Lembit Öpik: I agree. People who have looked at websites when booking flights know the relatively small Frank Cook (Stockton, North) (Lab): It is a pleasure additional cost of paying for the environmental damage to speak under your chairmanship, Mr. Streeter, for the of flying. The environmental offset for a flight is not first time in 26 years. I congratulate my hon. Friend the very expensive. Of course, there are issues with offset, Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on two counts: but, once again, that is for another time. Let me adamantly first, securing the debate, and, secondly, the magnificent confirm that when I appoint the hon. Gentleman Minister way he presented a well-researched demonstration of for Transport— folly on the part of the Government. I have no airport in my patch. In 1983, my hon. David Taylor: And gliding. Friend’s predecessor, Tony Blair, said to me, “Will you take care of my airport? I know nothing about them.” Lembit Öpik: Paragliding, actually. I will expect the So, from then until 5 May 2005, I looked after that hon. Gentleman to ensure that the damage caused by airport. After that, of course, my hon. Friend took over every passenger air mile is paid for. the responsibility, and I am pleased to say that he has Let me move to regional airport policy. The A380 done an excellent job. and the Boeing 747 have been superbly successful aircraft. Teesside airport—or Durham Tees Valley, as it is now Indeed, the A380 is the 21st-century jumbo jet for called—is the airport in which I have taken a particular hub-to-hub operations. I recently had the privilege of interest. It was the airport where I did my flying lessons, flying on the A380 with Singapore Airlines, which has and I have nursed it like a baby for 20-odd years. It is an unsurpassed quality of service in economy class and, particularly with regard to Teesside that I want to I imagine, in business class and what it calls suite class speak, but the statements that I shall make are relevant on long-haul flights. to every regional airport in the country. However, the real opportunity for regional airport Rather than regurgitating stuff that has already been policy is point to point. Aircraft in the design phase at discussed, I want to talk about increased charges for air present—the A350 and the Boeing Dreamliner—will passenger duty. The irony is that Holland has disregarded provide an opportunity for regions to be connected to it—it has done a U-turn—and Greece has done away other regions around the world. There are obvious with it altogether. That has created a climate in which economic benefits to that, but there are also environmental economy airlines such as Ryanair are basing their aircraft benefits. If a journey does not involve a change—in elsewhere in Europe. In fact, Ryanair has moved to other words, if it can be made in one flight instead of Italy; we do not have it in this country any more. That is two, especially on efficient aircraft such as the A350 or a common move. the Dreamliner—it will have a smaller environmental Europe is taking over our markets, and the Government footprint. have to realise that. It is as plain as the nose on your It seems clear that if we are to have a serious regional face that we will pay heavily for their deafness. The issue policy and relieve the congestion around London, point- was first raised with them in the middle of last year, but to-point flights are the natural way to go. Once again, no action was taken. The first realistic meeting that we let me emphasise the importance of environmental managed to secure, in March this year, was as a result of considerations. I am not suggesting point to point between the persistence of my hon. Friend the Member for destinations that can be connected by high-speed rail, Sedgefield. Several of us were there, including my right but it is the obvious answer for intercontinental journeys. hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) As the Oxford Economics report implies, we can get and those my hon. Friend identified earlier. We were economic, cultural and political benefits without having promised that we might have some better news this to make short flights but by ensuring that point to point month, so, like him, I anxiously await word from the on an international basis is possible. Minister about what he is doing. I steer clear of the third runway debate, because there For those who are interested in the third runway, I is only so much wrath I want to incur for my party’s voted for the damned thing. I would be happy to see it Front-Bench spokesmen, but I observe that there are built and am sure that it would be of benefit, but can we three certainties when it comes to British aviation policy: wait that long? When we consider what we welcomed as first, the demand for aviation will continue to rise; the northern gateway—it was supposed to help to bridge secondly, we should commit ourselves to high-speed rail the gap between north and south—we must ask whether links to obviate the need for short regional flights; and, we can wait a further 10 years. The third runway is thirdly, point to point offers an enormous opportunity planned for 2019—that is, if it is built by 2019. I used to to connect regions and gain economic benefits. No train planning engineers, and I know how they can get it Government should take away people’s right to fly, but wrong. every Government should commit themselves to the right to save the environment at the same time. Mr. Jamie Reed: Some say no taxation without It is not realistic for us to control demand for aviation— representation, and it is clearly far less exciting to say no that is beyond the political capacity of any party—but taxation without regional airport connectivity, but does we must be realistic about reasonable flight distances, my hon. Friend agree that it is entirely unfair for his and we should also be realistic about speaking with one constituents and mine, and those of everyone else in 83WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 84WH

[Mr. Jamie Reed] the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on securing the debate. He concentrated on the economic development this room, to pay for the third runway at Heathrow benefits, as he sees them, of regional airport development. without being able to fly to it from their own regional That is important, but I want to bring into the debate airport? some other, wider dimensions and, of course, as hon. and right hon. Members will have gathered from my Frank Cook: Hear, hear. So be it. It is self-evident, is earlier comments, I want to say something about the it not? I do not need to comment on that, because it is environmental dimension, which is also important when sound logic. considering policy on regional airports and airports The suggestion being put about in some quarters— more generally. certainly from interests such as BAA and even by the The fact is—we all know this—that the growth of air former Transport Secretary, my right hon. Friend the travel is a potential major contribution to the growth of Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon)—that the cure to all UK greenhouse gas emissions. We have stop that growth, our ills is the third runway at Heathrow is fanciful. or reduce it, if we are to meet the UK’s wider climate The reality is that the death of regional services to change objectives. That does not mean that we will stop Heathrow—only a handful are left, as my hon. Friend people flying or that we should seek to do so. All of us, the Member for Sedgefield said—is a here-and-now including me, fly from time to time. The question is, issue. If we are to improve the economic welfare of the what is the right balance between environmental north of England and the other regions in the country, considerations and the other economic and societal we cannot wait. The fundamental reason why regional considerations that have been mentioned today? On services have vanished from Heathrow is that the cost regional airport policy and airport policy generally, it is structure operated by BAA, which is endorsed by the about getting the balance right when we take forward Civil Aviation Authority and the Competition Commission, the policies for the future. means that they are uneconomic. Some points have to be made and fed into the debate The Government have indicated that they might be on regional airport policy. Where possible, domestic persuaded to consider ring-fencing slots for some regional journeys in particular should be taken by less services through the public service obligations orders, environmentally damaging forms of travel. Policy should but which airline will be prepared to use those as long as be designed to encourage that, which means high-speed the unfair and punitive charging system remains in rail. I hear the comments made by my hon. Friend, who place? We have to change the charging system. represents the north-east, about high-speed rail. I would The real solution is for the Government to say to the like high-speed rail to happen much more quickly in CAA, the Competition Commission, and even BAA, many other parts of the UK than is envisaged in the that a key element in deciding the costing structure at Government plans. However, I welcome— Heathrow has to be securing the viability of regional Hilary Armstrong (North-West Durham) (Lab): Does services, given their critical importance to the nation’s my hon. Friend accept that there is little prospect of economy, and especially given the ambitions to bridge high-speed rail in areas such as the north-east, or even the north-south economic divide. Ministers have claimed Scotland, in the medium term? that they have no powers to intervene over the Heathrow Does my hon. Friend also accept that one of the charging regime, but I do not accept that. I have been in main economic factors, which links to the environment, the House for 26 years and I know what Governments is the fact that we are a global nation and we need to can and cannot do. There is not a lot that they cannot develop relationships with companies from the other do—I have seen it and been part of it—so it is nonsense side of the world? We in the north-east have good to say that they cannot intervene. relationships with such companies, as my hon. Friend It is no use waiting until some new golden age in the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) said. However, which the third runway will solve our ills, because it will without regional links those companies will say, “We not happen. Unless the Government act now, by the can’t make that link. There’s no point in our going to time a third runway does happen—if it happens—Schiphol the north-east, because we can’t get there easily enough.” airport in Amsterdam will be even more firmly entrenched The environmental arguments in respect of Schiphol as a gateway to the world for much of the UK public. are worse, because the Dutch are not being as strong on Incidentally, Schiphol is not the only threat. In Germany, the environment with airlines as our Government are. Frankfurt airport has planning approval to begin building a fourth runway and a third passenger terminal, along Mark Lazarowicz: I would like high-speed rail to with accompanying infrastructure, will open in 2011. happen much more quickly than some people envisage, The longer we sit here doing nothing, the more we but I also take the point about the need to improve endanger our future. connectivity now. A factor in respect of high-speed rail I have nursed Durham Tees Valley airport for well is creating links to major airports and other airports in over 20 years—for 25 years, anyway—and I could go on the UK, including Heathrow and Manchester. But things talking for the rest of the day, but I understand that at could be done to improve connectivity through the least another two hon. Members want to get into the existing rail network. I make some of my journeys to debate. I hope that they can manage it in the eight Edinburgh by air because the last train from London to minutes remaining. Edinburgh is at 6 pm, which is not convenient for many business passengers, let alone leisure passengers. Things 10.23 am could be done in that regard, too. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ Three airlines fly from Edinburgh to Manchester—there Co-op): I will try to keep my remarks as brief as are 10 flights a day. One reason for that is that that route possible, Mr. Streeter. I congratulate my hon. Friend is about half the distance of Edinburgh to London. The 85WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 86WH train can sometimes take about four hours to get there. I would like to meet the Minister with a delegation to Things could be done to improve existing regional discuss the importance of Carlisle airport to the Cumbrian connectivity, including to airports, which might meet economy, and I hope that can happen very soon. I some of the concerns mentioned by my hon. Friend the support those who are calling for ring-fenced landing Member for Sedgefield. slots at Heathrow. I accept some of the points made about connectivity, but my point is that we need to get away from journeys 10.30 am within the UK that could be made by other forms of Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I congratulate the hon. transport, thereby freeing up space for that type of air Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on securing the travel, perhaps leading to connectivity for the north-east, debate. I do not agree with everything he said, as I will which is not provided for at present. I have some reservations explain, but I listened to him with more sympathy that I about the arguments advanced on reserving slots in the would have done to his predecessor—[Interruption.] I way my hon. Friend suggested, but I am happy to wish that the former Chief Whip, the right hon. Member consider that. However, we cannot lose sight of the for North-West Durham (Hilary Armstrong), would wider environmental considerations. stand up and make a speech instead of continually With regard to economic trends, and some of the intervening from a sedentary position. She does that all trends in air travel, there is a case for reviewing airport the time, and she is still doing it. policy and taking on board the points on connectivity The hon. Member for Sedgefield set out two objectives. made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West First, he recognises the need to secure help for regional Durham (Hilary Armstrong), but the case for reviewing economies, and I support that objective. Secondly, he the decision on a third runway is stronger than ever. I expressed sympathy for direct flights, or point-to-point hope that the Government, in considering how airport flights, as my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire policy is advanced, take account of the wider environmental (Lembit Öpik) described them. I also support that considerations, along with the important economic objective. Clearly, if one must travel from A to B and considerations raised by my hon. Friend the Member can do so without changing flights on the way, carbon for Sedgefield. emissions are reduced. I support those two objectives, but I do not agree with the prescription set out by the hon. Member for 10.28 am Sedgefield. I have listened to hon. Members here and on Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): I thank Catherine the Floor of the House who seem to live in a parallel Coulthard for the support that she has given me in world where climate change does not exist. It does preparing for the debate. exist—

It has been well stated that the north of England Hilary Armstrong: Will the hon. Gentleman give needs some strategic intervention in respect of its airports way? for it to be able to be competitive not just within the UK, but internationally. There are two principal reasons for that. First, strategic Government interventions now Norman Baker: In a moment. in northern airports will reduce the need for other, Climate change exists and it must be dealt with in probably more difficult and expensive, state interventions the round, as my hon. Friend the Member for in other parts of the northern economy in future. To Montgomeryshire did, taking account of the wish to reduce and ultimately stop the dependency of parts of travel and the environmental footprint. the north of England on long-term Government intervention and support, it is imperative that the Hilary Armstrong: I am delighted that the hon. Government invest wisely to ensure that the north can Gentleman is prepared to give way to me. I certainly do compete in its own right, regionally within the UK and not want to do anything other than improve climate internationally. There is real intrinsic value in spending change, carbon footprinting and so on in this country now; it means spending much less later. and worldwide. Does he accept that BMI’s policy, for example, of cancelling flights from Teesside means that Secondly, the south-east cannot keep growing indefinitely the environmental damage is greater because people use in population, the impact of its growth on the environment other airports? What faith does he have in manufacturing and much else. This is not good for the country or for potential? Despite what has been said, a firm in my our economy, and not good for the people of the constituency is close to an American company that is south-east. It is, ultimately, bad news for our democracy delivering significant changes to aeroplanes that will as well. This Government have a proud record of reduce their effect on the environment. We should support redistributing wealth on a social and individual basis. and invest in such companies to produce better That redistribution must accelerate regionally.The economy environmental opportunities for air travel. of the north of England does not require a long-term hand-out; it requires a short, sharp hand-up. Norman Baker: I agree that we should support such At a time when we are witnessing the end of unregulated companies, but I have talked to the aviation industry energy markets and we can see for ourselves the effect of and others in the transport sector, and my assessment is light regulation on the banking system, it is clear that that we are some way from dealing with carbon emissions the policy conclusions in both those sectors need to be from aviation, although solutions for road transport are taken over into the aviation sector. We need strategic rather nearer. We are probably 30, 40 or 50 years away interventions in the regional airports in this country, from a sensible solution that will make a real difference right now. to alternative fuel technology for aviation. 87WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 88WH

[Norman Baker] Norman Baker: I referred to Exeter, not Plymouth, but the hon. Lady was welcome to intervene. The hon. Member for Sedgefield has a correct beef to Studies have been done and for destinations such as pursue in BAA’s and British Airways’ attitude. Perhaps Paris, Brussels, Manchester and elsewhere it is quicker BA should be called “London Airways” because of its to travel from door to door by rail. policy of marginalising regional airports. I know that colleagues in Manchester feel strongly about the reduction Phil Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? in the number of direct flights from Manchester to New York because they must now go via Heathrow with Norman Baker: I will not, because I have only four consequent extra carbon emissions. We can agree on minutes left. such points. It takes two hours 40 minutes to travel to Darlington— I am conscious that there has been a big drop in the even now, with an unimproved rail line from King’s number of people using Durham Tees Valley airport. Cross. That compares favourably with the overall journey CAA figures show that 19,601 passengers used it in time by air, taking account of delays at the airport. February 2009, which is a 52 per cent. fall from the previous year, and such falls must be examined. There is In response to the point about high-speed rail, I no indication that a third runway at Heathrow would understand that, thanks to Lord Adonis and the solve the problem. The approach of the hon. Member Government, High Speed 2 is being considered not only for Sedgefield should be regulatory, because with a for London to the west midlands, but for scoping corridors third runway BAA and BA will simply provide more way beyond that, including to the north-east. I look flights to New York, Bangalore and Singapore. forward to the report on High Speed 2. My vision for high-speed rail is that it should benefit the north-east, Scotland and Wales. It should not be one line. That is Phil Wilson: My point was that ring-fencing some of achievable and has been done elsewhere in Europe, so the slots at Heathrow would help to mitigate the problem there is no reason why it should not be done in this of regional airports that do not have access to Heathrow. country. Norman Baker: I understand that. It is worth making the point that regional airports have sought to expand in recent years, and many of the I want to return to the problem of carbon emissions connections have been for holiday purposes. There is and the point that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, nothing wrong with that, but we must not assume that North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) made. If projected extra slots will necessarily be taken up by journeys to carbon emissions from aviation, even according to London for business purposes. They will also be taken Government figures, stabilised where they are now and up for holiday purposes to holiday destinations. remained the same in 2050, a cut not of 80 per cent. but On the alternatives to short-haul flights to Heathrow of 89 per cent. would be required from this country to and comparing them with the alternative of high-speed compensate for what would effectively be a free ride for rail, when businesses were polled in 2008, almost 10 aviation. The current projection is that aviation emissions times as many UK businesses supported the suggestion will increase by 38 per cent. by 2040. of a high-speed rail link from London to the north as The problem is largely out of control, so it is reasonable supported the expansion of Heathrow with extra slots to consider the alternatives, including high-speed rail. I to the north-east. do not agree with the reference made by the hon. Member for Sedgefield to the north-east being peripheral, Phil Wilson: The Airport Operators Association has nor do I believe that Exeter is peripheral. said: “Using CAA statistics, even if all of Heathrow’s domestic Alison Seabeck: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? passengers switched to rail, Heathrow would operate at around 90 per cent. of capacity and still be full before 2020 when a third Norman Baker: I will not, because I have done so runway could be operational. Rail is not an alternative to airport twice. expansion, but it is part of a coherent intermodal transport policy.” For me, Scottish islands such as Shetland are peripheral. Exeter is not. I challenge the hon. Member for Plymouth, Norman Baker: I do not accept that. There is an Devonport (Alison Seabeck) to travel door to door alternative to a large range of domestic destinations from this place to the middle of Exeter by rail or air— and new European destinations. There should be direct train journeys to Amsterdam and Berlin, for example. Alison Seabeck: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? There is no reason why we should not be able to make such journeys by rail. Yesterday, I met Deutsche Bahn Norman Baker: In a moment. If the hon. Lady travelled to talk about that. Plans are progressing well, and when door to door by rail or air, allowing for transport to EU open access occurs in 2010, we will see more of Heathrow and the queues there, would she get to Exeter those journeys. quickest by train or plane? I challenge her to make that journey. David Taylor: Twenty-four hours ago, Mr. Streeter, I sat in your Chair and heard a fine speech by the Alison Seabeck: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) in which he like to do the journey to Plymouth. As I have explained, comprehensively demolished the research underpinning it takes five hours by rail or car from my base in what Oxford Economic Forecasting has said, which London to my home in Plymouth. If I use the airline, shaped the predicted usage of aviation, both freight and which uses City airport, it takes two and a half hours. passenger. Is it not about time that we had a thoroughly 89WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 90WH independent and effective analysis that is more balanced of direct flights as more and more regional airports get than the Oxford document, which is substantially longer runways. My party believes that regional airport discredited? policy should allow maximum utilisation of existing infrastructure and thus take some of the pressure off Norman Baker: Yes, it is. The aviation industry has the south-east. Some spare capacity already exists, but made a practice in the past 10 years of skewing figures in other areas, including the south-east, there are problems. to try to influence Government policy in an improper A number of airports are stuck in very long planning direction. We need an independent look at the issue, processes and there may be good reasons why some of and I hope that with a new Minister in charge and Lord those projects should not go ahead. Adonis as Secretary of State, we will get it. Turning to specific issues, I would be interested if the I have not been able to make all the points that I Minister commented on the need for temporary surge wanted to—I have been keen to give way to hon. capacity in the south-east to deal with the Olympic Members—but let me say to the hon. Member for games. Over a couple of weeks, there will be 900 extra Sedgefield that I very much sympathise with his wish to movements. Clearly, smaller airports should pick that support his regional economy. That is right. I also up. What thought has he given to that? sympathise over the lack of direct flights, the pulling of My local regional airport, of which I am extremely flights and the loss of slots to London. However, the proud, is Kent International at Manston. Its current prescription that he produced for more flying, while infrastructure includes one of the longest runways in dismissing the environmental case and ignoring high-speed the country. It is suitable for code E aircraft such as rail, is not the right solution. Boeing 747-400s and is also capable of hosting code F aircraft such as the A380. Sadly, it is massively underused. 10.40 am However, the forthcoming enhancement of the rail service Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): It is a great between London and Ramsgate means that travel times pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Streeter. will drop from two hours to barely 80 minutes, with the I congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil trains passing the bottom of the runway.The medium-term Wilson) on securing this debate on regional aviation aim is to cater for 500,000 tonnes of freight and policy. He is a strong supporter of his local airport, 6 million passengers a year, which will potentially provide Durham Tees Valley, which is also my sister’s local 7,500 jobs. Even partial success would make the airport airport; she lives near it. Like many regional airports, a substantial driver of economic growth in east Kent, Durham Tees is struggling in the current economic which is one of the poorer areas of the country. conditions. Figures obtained by the Airport Operators Southend is another example of a regional airport Association suggest that airport employment will fall that can expand. Its runway is operating at a tiny by one quarter this year and the average profits at UK percentage of capacity, but the planned extension and airports by one fifth. My party profoundly believes in new railway line will take pressure off other south-eastern the importance of our regional airports and the contribution airports. that they make to regional economies. I listened with interest to the comments by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Alison Seabeck) on Hilary Armstrong: Will the hon. Gentleman therefore Plymouth. My parents live in the west country, so I am rebut the statement that his leader made that the north-east rather sensitive to those points, but I put it to her that requires only one airport? the Conservative plans for a rail hub at Heathrow that links Heathrow directly into the rail system would transform Mr. Brazier: I have not seen the detail of that statement, the ability of constituents such as hers to travel. but the position at the moment is that we have a number of busy airports in northern England. Having used Alison Seabeck: I understand the point that the hon. Newcastle and Leeds myself and my sister being a Gentleman is making and it is an interesting proposal. regular user of Durham Tees Valley, I am conscious of None the less, the time taken on the rail link to go all the role that they all play. the way down to Plymouth and Cornwall is still much Regional airports have grown in popularity in the longer than if we had the air link into Heathrow. past few years. The hon. Member for Sedgefield cited Tourism is important. It is important that we get Americans various figures. The most striking one is that the percentage coming to Heathrow who then come to Plymouth to of passenger traffic going to regional airports grew visit it and the far south-west. Playing down tourism is from 39 to 48 per cent. between 2001 and just before the a mistake. recession. We support the expansion of regional airports where community support exists. We can see a case for Mr. Brazier: The point is that people would be able to proportionate and sensible expansion of regional airports, get off an aeroplane and go directly to a rail terminal, with decisions made on a case-by-case basis, taking which would avoid the huge transfer times. account of local and national environmental factors as Today, regional airports are struggling, as a number usual. Regional airports have the potential to reduce of hon. Members said. Air passenger duty is growing transit flights by increasing point-to-point movements—as substantially, and regional airports have been hit by the the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) economic downturn. A point that the hon. Member for pointed out—as well as reducing road congestion in the Sedgefield made strongly is that a serious distortion in south-east, where there is still an unhealthy concentration APD is hitting our regional airports. It is hitting the of flying. viability of their routes to Heathrow, which is a key The hon. Member for Sedgefield stressed the importance reason why we have lost some of those routes, and it of links to Heathrow and I will return to that point, but bears down particularly heavily on point-to-point flights, I think that he was wrong to underplay the importance as opposed to people getting a short connection to a 91WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 92WH

[Mr. Brazier] 10.50 am continental airport and then doing an APD-free flight The Minister of State, Department for Transport from there. There are other anomalies, but one is that (Mr. Sadiq Khan): It is a pleasure to see you in the charges are based on the distance from London to the Chair, Mr. Streeter. I know that you have a genuine capital city of the destination country, not the destination interest in this area of policy. itself. Therefore, frequent flyers to the western United One’s nervousness is compounded by the fact that the States or eastern Russia pay much less; they get a Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary has relatively free ride compared with other people flying walked into the Chamber. I hope that she is here for the comparable distances. next debate, rather than to take notes on this one. The structure for APD is in a mess. We propose I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield moving to a flights tax to end the absurdity whereby full (Phil Wilson) on his excellent and thought-provoking carbon-efficient aircraft subsidise empty carbon-inefficient speech. He is a champion of the north-east, not just aircraft. I do not have time to go into more detail, but because he led a delegation with my right hon. Friend my shadow Treasury colleagues are examining the issue the Member for North-West Durham (Hilary Armstrong) closely. and others to meet the previous Aviation Minister, or The administered incentive pricing proposal is causing because of the issues he has raised at Prime Minister’s regional airports huge worry.Ofcom proposes to introduce questions, but because of the way he has challenged and such pricing for the use of aeronautical spectrum, which cajoled previous and current Ministers and officials in principle is a good idea as it would encourage people regarding some of the challenges that his region faces. to use less. The problem, as the Cave review pointed That will benefit not just his region and his constituents, out, is that some people, including airports, have no but the wider community. choice. The Government themselves have said: We have had interventions and speeches from across “In many cases, international agreements limit the scope to the UK. We have heard from North-West Durham; improve spectrum efficiency”. Montgomeryshire; Paisley and Renfrewshire, North; Ofcom is ignoring the Cave review. Will the Minister Edinburgh, North and Leith; North-West Leicestershire; give guidance to Ofcom and tell it to look at what the Castle Point—I always enjoy it when the hon. Member Cave review and the Government said about the issue? for Castle Point (Bob Spink) has a dig at the Mayor of Ofcom’s original consultation document was only placed London—Orkney and Shetland; Lewes; Canterbury; on its website, not sent to stakeholders. Will the Minister Copeland; and Stockton, North. I will try to deal with tell us who responded and who provided evidence to the points that have been raised, but if I do not, I will, Helios and Plum in their work on the impact assessment of course, write to my right hon. and hon. Friends, as for Ofcom’s AIP proposals? He may need to write to me well as to the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier), on that. Ofcom proposes a two-stage approach to spectrum who speaks for Her Majesty’s official Opposition. pricing. When is the second consultation, on pricing of The hon. Gentleman was understandably nervous radar and aeronautical radio navigation aids, expected? when asked to confirm his leader’s view that there Have the Government done any detailed research on should be only one airport in north-east England, and the cost implications for regional airports? To give one he was nervous when asked another important question. example, the losses at Inverness would be increased by I know that this is a hard assumption for my hon. one sixth—that would be picked up directly by the Friends to make, but let us assume for a second that the Scottish taxpayer. Leader of the Opposition is being truthful when he says that, should the Conservative party form a Government— Norman Baker: Can the hon. Gentleman guarantee, God forbid—the only ring-fenced areas of expenditure given the indication from the shadow Chancellor of the would be the NHS, development and schools. That Exchequer, the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne), raises the question of where the cuts will be made, so that there will be a 10 per cent. cut in funding for public when I am being sanctimoniously lectured about high-speed sector projects after the next election, that the Conservative rail, I know that the words I am hearing are not worth proposals for high-speed rail will go ahead? the breath taken to say them.

Mr. Brazier: The Conservative proposals for high-speed Alison Seabeck: Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge rail have been personally endorsed by the leader. They that having a super-hub at Heathrow does not help are a long-term project, although the first stage, which Plymouth, because we do not have a slot there? connects into the link to the channel tunnel, is the one that will deliver most of the alternatives to flying by Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend made an interesting speech. bringing journeys by rail to Brussels, Paris, Amsterdam I have great respect for the hon. Member for Lewes and many other destinations within three hours. The (Norman Baker), but I do not envy my hon. Friend her Conservative party is closely committed to that project. five-hour journey with him to Plymouth. However, she The hon. Gentleman and I have the same view on raises a serious point, because this is not an either/or. Heathrow and similar views on high-speed rail, but I do We need to recognise that only one party—well, there is not share his downbeat view of the savings that can be probably another one—is committed to investment in generated by some of the exciting developments in infrastructure, which is what we are talking about. aeronautical technology or the carbon savings that will The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit come from biofuels. Öpik) made an important speech. I enjoyed his comments To conclude, the Conservative party believes that about the Talibanesque ban on people’s right to travel—even regional airports are a huge asset. We must find ways to more than I enjoyed his comments about the Liberal make life easier for them. Democrats taking power in 2010. However, he made 93WH Regional Aviation Policy17 JUNE 2009 Regional Aviation Policy 94WH important points about the different options that exist, be subject to a full economic assessment. My hon. about the fact that we live in a global village and about Friend the Member for Sedgefield has called for a the many challenges that we face. review of that policy. I cannot give him a commitment My hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield also on that today, but I can confirm that we will explore raised important points, and I will come to them. First, what assistance can be given to regional airports. however, let me say that the Government fully recognise In his excellent speech, my hon. Friend referred to the the importance of the UK’s regional airports as contributors economic regulation of airports. As one of the regional to the UK aviation sector and in creating greater choice stakeholders who expressed concerns in response to the for passengers. Government’s recent consultation on proposals to reform My hon. Friend referred to the White Paper and he is the economic regulation of airports, he will be pleased familiar with it. For other colleagues, it is worth pointing to know that we will publish our response later this out that we accept that the failure to allow for increased year. We will look at all the options and respond to his airport capacity could have serious economic consequences points, as well as to those of his region, which has also at regional and national level. Airports, including those responded and has been quite vociferous in its views. in the regions and the devolved Administrations, are an My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, North important focus for the development of local and regional raised the important issue of air passenger duty, and he economies. We accept that they attract businesses, generate is not the first to do so. Other colleagues have cited the employment, open up markets and provide important changes to APD that the Chancellor announced in impetus to regeneration. November 2008 as a possible reason for withdrawing Let me give some examples of the growth in regional services at regional airports. From this November, APD airports. Manchester international airport has increased will expand from two to four bands to send a stronger the handling capacity of its transport interchange with environmental signal that passengers flying further will the opening of a new £15 million rail platform in pay higher rates to reflect the greater levels of emissions December 2008. Last October, Glasgow international from their flights. I know that the hon. Member for airport’s Skyhub terminal extension opened, greatly Lewes has a keen interest in the issue. We estimate that improving facilities for passengers. Earlier this year, that reform will save 0.6 million tonnes of CO2 by Birmingham international airport gained planning approval 2011-12, compared with now. to extend its runway. Improvements have been under Several colleagues have spoken, and I want to deal way at other regional airports, including Glasgow Prestwick, briefly with some of their points. I have no doubt that Aberdeen and Bournemouth. my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield will continue However, we cannot escape the fact that private sector to lobby, harangue, harass and cajole me and my colleagues airlines and airports are seeking to stay profitable in the in the politest and most courteous of ways. downturn, which is having a major effect on their I am happy to meet my hon. Friend the Member for business. UK airlines operate in a competitive international Copeland (Mr. Reed) to discuss his concerns about market, as several colleagues have said. We cannot Carlisle airport. In his two minutes, he managed to escape the fact that some UK airlines have announced make some important points. As I said, the hon. Member plans for job losses. They want to fly more profitable for Montgomeryshire made a very thoughtful speech. I routes. have huge respect for the hon. Member for Lewes, but I We also have to state the obvious. My hon. Friend the am not sure that I agree with his analysis of road versus Member for Stockton, North (Frank Cook) thinks that air, because both are an option. However, he is right the Government have huge power, but we simply do not about High Speed 2, because our vision is not simply of have the power to tell airlines what routes to fly. Although a route from London to the west midlands. The hon. we can and do try to influence their decisions, airlines Gentleman has read what my right hon. Friend the and airports will make commercial judgments. former Secretary of State for Transport has said, and he will know that we want the whole country to be served We are clear that the fall in passenger numbers in by high-speed rail. He was, however, a bit unfair when 2008, which several hon. Members have mentioned, he suggested that my hon. Friend the Member for reflects the current cyclical economic position, not a Sedgefield, or anybody else, had said that climate change change in the fundamental drivers behind the longer-term did not exist. growth in UK air passenger demand, which we continue My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North to expect to remain strong as economic growth recovers. and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) made an important speech Hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member about the balance that needs to be struck. He will be for Sedgefield, have approached the Government about aware of the summit taking place in Copenhagen later opportunities for state assistance to maintain air services this year. For the avoidance of doubt, let me say that we between regional and hub airports. My hon. Friend the have the toughest environmental conditions anywhere Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Alison Seabeck) in the world in place for runway 3. referred to her council approaching the Department. In In the nine minutes that I have had, I have tried to our guidance, we have set out how we assess such deal with most of the points that have been made. I will applications, and we will look at any submissions. write to those colleagues whose points I have not been We will carefully consider any application from regional able to deal with. Once again, I congratulate my hon. bodies for a public service obligation to support a Friend the Member for Sedgefield on his excellent regional air service, although, as I said, it is not possible Adjournment debate. He has raised several serious issues, to guarantee in advance that one will be approved. Any which the Department and the country need to take on proposal would have to meet EU eligibility criteria and board. 95WH 17 JUNE 2009 Pemberton Homicide Review 96WH

Pemberton Homicide Review just to the recommendations in the review, but following a request from the family they developed and shared with them a further action plan in response to the PHR, 11 am on which I congratulate them. However, it is the view of Anne Snelgrove (South Swindon) (Lab): I am grateful the family that that plan should be looked at again. for the opportunity to raise again the lessons that arise Julia Pemberton’s nephew, Desmond Khan, did a great from the terrible murders of Julia and William Pemberton. deal of work to identify where the police action plan The deaths followed a history of domestic violence to could be improved. Thames Valley police were then which the police were alerted 15 months before the invited to respond. I understand that they are looking at tragedy. I am proud to follow the lead of my predecessor, the suggestions, and I ask that they give them due Julia Drown, by working with Frank Mullane, the weight. brother of Julia Pemberton, and my constituent, to One suggestion concerns supervision. The PHR found keep the House’s attention on the matter. that Thames Valley police officers were “poorly supervised Since the murders, Frank has joined the Government’s or supported”, and that the situation regarding Julia’s victims advisory panel and has created a registered reporting of threats to kill was charity called Advocacy After Fatal Domestic Abuse, “compounded by a lack of policy or supervision to direct and of which I am a patron, partly to help families to ensure minimum standards.” interact with criminal justice agencies and other bodies The report raised another point: when they are trying to establish what happened, and to “Chief Officers must evidence their knowledge of key policies ensure that learning is identified and applied. The and critical incident management relevant to Domestic Violence.” Pemberton homicide review reported in November 2008, five years after the tragedy.The report identified significant That is particularly significant as the report criticised recommendations for many agencies, including the police, leadership in the force, and the family believe that it the local authority, schools, the primary care trust, demands a full response. They have met academics, general practitioners and central Government. The family, police officers and domestic violence workers and strategists, some of whom are my constituents, asked for the debate and I am told that they all agree that a lack of intrusive because they do not want us to forget the review, its supervision is a major issue when it comes to the recommendations or its findings. The family campaign effective policing of domestic violence. There are thus on behalf of the hundreds of domestic violence victims issues for Thames Valley police to reflect on and act on. who have urged them to make sure that the PHR is Dr. Carolyn Hoyle, who is reader in criminology at learned from. Oxford university, commented that Thames Valley police It is important that we should congratulate the relevant “must ensure that the tragic deaths of Julia and William are embedded into its institutional memory in order that the current agencies and individuals who have taken forward commitment to helping victims of domestic violence does not recommendations, and that we should give encouragement wane.” where findings and recommendations need more attention. We need to ensure that the learning points from the The family also invite West Berkshire council and PHR have been identified. I use the word “learning” to primary care trust to take a more holistic view of the avoid any accusation that we want to blame agencies. review. They have given the two agencies a list of learning Blame will not get us anywhere. We are all here to make points and offered some comments on the council’s sure that lessons are learned by all. We need to ensure actions so far. They tell me that the council took on that everything is done to get the outcomes applied board some of their comments and said that others will both locally and nationally. There is also the general be built into “individual agency action plans”. Will the question of who ensures that the recommendations and Minister clarify today what that will mean in practice, learning from voluntary homicide reviews are taken and assure the family that it will mean that the agencies forward. Who brings the wide-angle perspective? The will give due weight to the list of learning points they debate is important because no one wants there to be submitted? another serious injury or murder after which issues The family drew my attention to the part of the from the Pemberton review are found not to have been review that says that primary care trusts have the dealt with. opportunity, through their contractual arrangements First, to give credit where it is due, I, like the Mullane with general practitioners, to include requirements with family, want to commend all the agencies for their work regard to domestic violence. In their view the local following the review, where they have taken forward the authority response does not appear to be robust enough. recommendations. However, much of the substance of A recommendation of the review is that GPs should be the Pemberton review is in the body of the report and is better trained, including, significantly, being told of the not reflected in those recommendations. The family risk indicators associated with perpetrator behaviour in want to ask the agencies to go back to the review, and domestic abuse. The family highlight one of the council’s not just to look at the recommendations but to take a actions in response to the recommendation: holistic view of the substance. It would be useful for “Review training provided to GPs and others on Domestic those agencies to bring together evidence of where Homicide as part of the safeguarding framework”. recommendations have been followed, and develop plans The family would like clarification on whether all GPs to apply all the lessons. Victims and their families in the authority have been made aware of indicators deserve a thorough response. associated with perpetrator behaviour, because until I shall set out some examples of the responses of the that happens they feel that to report that action as police, West Berkshire council and the primary care “complete”—as it has been reported—is incorrect. I am trust, and give the family’s view of how those responses sure we would acknowledge that action plans should be could be improved. Thames Valley police initially responded unambiguous and that there should be expressed outcomes, 97WH Pemberton Homicide Review17 JUNE 2009 Pemberton Homicide Review 98WH so that we can easily link the recommendation or learning The family was disappointed by the behaviour of point to an action and then to an outcome. That is what some individuals in the agencies during the review the family suggest. period. Julia’s brother-in-law, Mike Mason, has written The review found that a concise protocol, including on behaviours, saying how agencies should treat families in this position, and I am “the weaknesses and gaps in the council’s overall policies and pleased that the Home Office’s violent crime unit has procedures in relation to Domestic Violence did not impact on asked to see it. I was extremely shocked at much of the the outcome”. family’s evidence on that matter. However, one expert consulted by the family disputed The review found that the response of Thames Valley that that could be concluded from the review. Similarly, police and the council to inquiries by the family after the review found: the murders caused the family difficulty—and that is an “The Primary Care Trust had no direct involvement with Julia understatement. Thames Valley police has apologised Pemberton that could have influenced the course of events”. for that, as well as for its response prior to the murders; However, another expert remarked that, had the primary and the council, too, has agreed to apologise. That care trust developed services such as a staff domestic apology is welcome, but the family should not have violence policy, those might have helped to influence needed to seek an apology more than six months after events. The family feel that bringing those views to light the report. may encourage the local authority and primary care The Pemberton homicide review came into being trust to develop more services. There are learning points partly because of the persistence and determination of within the report that should be of interest to the the family and friends of Julia and William Pemberton, Government as well. One of those is: some of whom are here today. The family also had, and continue to have, the assistance of a wonderful friend “Domestic violence training should be made available for Coroners”. and empathetic solicitor, John Latham, and a significant network of academics, strategists, media contacts and That seems to me a practical suggestion, and I raised it Members of Parliament from across the House, including with the Minister during the passage of the Coroners my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. Indeed, and Justice Bill. she has been giving advice and help to the family for I now want to consider the question of who ensures many years, including before she became a Minister. I that the recommendations and findings in voluntary note the presence today of the hon. Members for Newbury homicide reviews are taken forward and that individual (Mr. Benyon) and for Mid-Dorset and North Poole agency plans are adequate and implemented effectively. (Annette Brooke), who represent family members. Neil Websdale, who is a professor of criminology and The resourcefulness and capacity of the network that the principal project adviser to the national domestic the family has at its disposal is not available to all violence fatality review initiative, said: families, so we need to assure the public that when “The Pemberton Homicide Review constitutes a landmark things go wrong our public services are able and willing achievement in the field of domestic violence fatality or homicide to correct problems, to identify opportunities and to review. It is meticulous in its approach, honest in its conclusions help victims. The family are aware of the Government’s and forward thinking in its recommendations. As such, the review significant efforts to provide services for victims of sets a gold standard in terms of its detailed appreciation of the domestic violence—for example, specialist domestic violence complex issues in domestic violence cases and its pressing calls for courts, multi-agency risk assessment conferences and agency accountability and interagency liaison.” independent domestic violence advocates. The Government It is important, when there are lessons to learn, that we are developing a homicide review model, and the family encourage all those agencies to ensure that they are welcome the invitation from the Home Office to be a learned. part of that review. The family and I also look forward to the implementation of the strategy on violence against It is equally important to ensure accountability in the women. process. If the tragic murder of 17-year-old William had been followed up by a serious case review, I believe I ask the Minister to assure me that each agency will that it might have attracted the attention of Ofsted. As do more to ensure that all the learning points in the for the Pemberton review, the family, with the help of a Pemberton homicide review are identified; and that substantial network, have brought a great deal of each agency will show, with evidence, that all learning accountability to the process. I pay tribute to them for points from the Pemberton review have been applied—or that; they have worked tirelessly and did not give up that they will provide clear actions, with owners, dates when many others would have. and outcomes, to demonstrate that outstanding learning will be applied. Will he assure me that accountability I ask the Minister to assure the family that, in homicide structures will be put in place to identify and apply all reviews such as this, the Government will ensure robust learning points from the review? accountability. One system that he might want to consider Finally, will the Minister assure me that everything is that used by Ontario. The family have asked me to that we can learn from the review is being applied and cite the work of Professor Peter Jaffe, who said that that its effectiveness is being shared nationally, so that death reviewers there require agencies to come back fewer families will go through what this family went after one year to explain what progress has been made through? since their review was published. The family believe that something similar applied in the UK could help agencies to identify and apply all learning points. As I 11.15 am said earlier, the family’s purpose is not to apportion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the blame but to ensure that similar circumstances do not Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): I congratulate arise again. my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Anne 99WH Pemberton Homicide Review17 JUNE 2009 Pemberton Homicide Review 100WH

[Mr. Alan Campbell] clarifying the detail of the process that a review would take, as well as addressing risks and concerns that have Snelgrove) on securing this debate, which is on a most arisen throughout the consultation and development important topic. I know that she has raised the case of process. Julia and William Pemberton in the House before, and The report, “Learning Lessons, Taking Action”, which that she has worked closely with Julia’s brother, Frank was Ofsted’s evaluation of serious case reviews in 2008, Mullane, on the question of domestic homicide. I know raised serious concerns about this process, not least that tackling domestic abuse in all its forms is one of about the lack of engagement with the victims’ family her priorities. I also acknowledge and welcome the during the conduct of the review. That was a feature of interest shown by the hon. Members for Newbury the legal proceedings prior to West Berkshire safer (Mr. Benyon) and for Mid-Dorset and North Poole communities partnership starting the review into the (Annette Brooke). deaths of Julia and William. I assure hon. Members that the Government regard Concern was also expressed about the financial burden tackling domestic abuse as a priority. Certainly, we will that domestic homicide reviews would place on local not forget the review. I give my hon. Friend a commitment areas, and as a result discussions have taken place that we will consider the specific points that she has between the Home Office, the Local Government raised today, even if I cannot address each and every Association and the Department for Communities and one of them now. The debate is timely—if such a debate Local Government to ensure that local authorities can can ever be timely—coming, as it does, shortly after the meet their responsibilities. Proceeding with a new process, closure of the consultation on violence against women based on a system that is clearly not right, would be and girls. That consultation will help to inform policy counter-productive. Any system has to command the and strategy on tackling domestic violence not only at confidence of all involved, especially victims’representatives. the Home Office but across Government. My hon. Friend might be interested to know that my I shall speak generally about reviews before turning officials are in regular contact with Mr. Mullane on this to the specific points of the present case. In 2005, the matter. Although we are still at the beginning of the Government published the first national domestic violence process, this is an opportunity to develop a system that delivery plan, setting out our commitment to address is meaningful and accountable—a word to which she domestic violence. The plan identified the key outcomes kept returning in her speech—and that makes a real that the Government and stakeholders should be working difference to how local areas respond to contact with towards—from prevention through to victim care, and future victims of domestic violence. We very much the response of the criminal justice system. welcome, and place great value on, Mr. Mullane’s comments Reducing the number of domestic violence-related and contributions, and I assure her that we will take homicides is a key national objective. According to the those points very seriously and, as far as possible, allow British crime survey, 106 people were killed by their them to influence the process. The delay in implementation partners or ex-partners in 2007-08. Like Julia and William, of the 2004 Act is regrettable, but the Government many of those victims will have had contact with the remain committed to implementation. However, it is police or other agencies. By reviewing the stages that crucial that we take the time to ensure that the process lead to such tragedies, agencies can learn how to react that we introduce is the right one. better to situations and to make judgments that can I shall now turn to the tragic events in 2003. Following avoid deaths and save lives. It was with that in mind that the intervention of my hon. Friend’s predecessor, Julia domestic homicide reviews were legislated for under Drown, on behalf of the family of Mrs. Pemberton, section 9 of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims West Berkshire safer communities partnership undertook Act 2004. As my hon. Friend knows, the 2004 Act has a stand-alone review into the circumstances surrounding not yet been implemented. I shall explain why that it so, the murders of Julia and William. The Home Office and say how the points that she has raised can still shadowed the review in the hope that it will provide an inform the process as we move towards implementation. insight into how a review might run. Despite the original Domestic homicide reviews are not meant to be inquiries intention for it to end in March 2006, the review did not into how a victim died or into who was to blame. Those conclude until November 2008, and although it made a are and should remain matters to be determined by the number of recommendations that could be applied to criminal justice system. However, reviews should seek homicide reviews in general, it concluded: to establish whether any or all of the agencies involved “The Pemberton case is complex both in terms of the individual responded correctly and in accordance with their own circumstances of the incidents and in the context of the development procedures and guidelines. If it was found that agencies of national policy on homicide reviews. We consider that this could have responded more effectively, it would be for review should be viewed as an exception to the model set out in the review body to determine whether an alternative the Draft Guidance rather than a template for future Domestic course of action could have prevented the victim’s death. Homicide Reviews.” The result of the review should be to ensure that agencies Since November 2003, Thames Valley police has can respond appropriately to victims of domestic violence made progress in how it deals with domestic abuse. The by putting in place the appropriate support mechanisms leadership for tackling domestic abuse in the force now to help avoid future tragedies. sits with an assistant chief constable, who chairs a A consultation on draft guidelines for homicide reviews protecting vulnerable people steering group. To support was published in June 2006. Proposals from that the steering group, the force established a dedicated consultation suggested that the review process could be PVP strategy unit, whose domestic abuse and honour-based based on the serious case review model. In 2006, a violence policies are regularly reviewed. domestic homicide steering group was established to Each of Thames Valley’s basic command units has assist with the development of the review process. That embedded domestic abuse units whose trained staff are group meets regularly, and its input has proved vital in on call to deal with victims in a sensitive and prompt 101WH Pemberton Homicide Review 17 JUNE 2009 102WH manner. Each BCU has an established risk assessment St. Helena process that will be superseded by the new DASH risk assessment by the end of 2009. Thames Valley police 2.30 pm has been working with multi-agency risk assessment conferences in all BCUs and specialist domestic violence Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): It is a great pleasure courts in four out of five police areas, with the fifth due to have secured this debate on the future of St. Helena. I to be operational shortly. have been trying to do so since the beginning of the year Thames Valley police accepted the findings of the and had almost given up hope, when out it popped from Pemberton review and conducted a detailed study of the bag, so I am absolutely delighted. I must declare at the report that drew out not only the specific the outset that my interest in St. Helena was first recommendations, but—crucially—the observations and stimulated by my constituency. Colonel Sir Thomas comments of the review panel. It will have heard, as I Reade was a native of Congleton and served as Deputy have done, the points made quite rightly by my hon. Adjutant General of the troops in St. Helena during the Friend about the need to take a holistic approach not captivity of Napoleon Bonaparte. That is an important only to address specific recommendations, but to view part of the history of the island and, in the future, these matters as a whole. Individual agencies need to be would be a great added tourist attraction. held accountable to ensure that they deliver tangible When I was first elected in 1983, someone who was to outcomes from the review into these tragic events. marry one of my very best friends, Philip Dale, served The study noted improvements in service delivery as secretary to the Government of St. Helena, and both since 2003, which it applied to recommendations in the Philip and Sue have always been very interested in the Pemberton review. That formed the basis for an action welfare of island. I know that they and other people in plan approved by the chief constable and presented to Congleton will be delighted that we are having this the police authority and the relatives of Julia and debate. Moreover, I think that it must be more than a William. The Government believe that a successful, happy coincidence that we have a St. Helenian as the coherent system of review can lead to the goal that we Badge Messenger on the door this afternoon. That is all share of saving people’s lives. Like the case of Julia very welcome, and we are all delighted by it. and William Pemberton, many local areas currently St. Helena has changed significantly for the worse in undertake ad hoc homicide reviews, which can help recent years. The close family unit on which the island local forces and authorities to improve their responses prided itself is fast breaking down and the population and the support that they offer to chronic victims of now increasingly comprises the elderly and children. As domestic abuse. a direct result, revenue and resources continue to decline We remain committed to putting in place a system and the inhabitants, who are loyal British citizens, are and guidance that will make a real difference. I wish to becoming increasingly distressed and disillusioned. make an offer to my hon. Friend and to others who The average salary for local people is a mere £4,500 a have shown an interest, including family members: I am year, but goods and food are more expensive than in the always willing to meet and discuss the specific points UK because of freight charges. For that reason and the raised, so that, as well as having discussions with my fact that there are only limited opportunities in St. Helena officials in moving this forward, I can, wherever possible, for skilled workers and young people, many Saints are help in that process. It is crucial that we learn lessons being forced to leave their families to seek work abroad. and get this right. People who have experienced such More than 150 children and young adults are now in tragic events should not find themselves further frustrated, informal foster care as a consequence, which cannot be angered and upset by reviews that fail to address all the right by anyone’s reckoning. issues or—crucially—by the failure to learn lessons. We The Health Department has the painful and sensitive are all committed to tackling domestic violence as a job of selecting which seriously ill patients qualify for whole. In the future, I hope that a Minister can stand further care and treatment in Cape Town or in the here and say not only that we have made the necessary United Kingdom. With an ageing population, there is progress, but that we will not need future domestic greater need for elderly care, but there is less of it with homicide reviews. resources increasingly stretched. Education, too, is becoming more problematic as classes shrink but demands for a 11.26 am broad curriculum continue. Sitting suspended. Finding teachers and nurses is increasingly difficult, as more Saints leave the island to find better paid positions elsewhere. The same problem exists with other jobs. Many people are initially interested in positions but are then put off by the difficulty of getting to and from the island. As a result, St. Helena has had to increase the number of expatriate staff to fill key posts in recent years, which is extremely expensive. Externally recruited staff are paid commercial rates, which are vastly more than the local norm. That leads to an ever-increasing disparity of wages on the island between expatriates and the indigenous population. There is also the considerable burden on the United Kingdom taxpayer, which will only increase as more expatriates are needed. Many Saints in the UK have developed skills that St. Helena badly needs and are 103WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 104WH

[Ann Winterton] house, High Knoll fort and Diana’s Peak national park. The island also has a large and rare seabird population keen to return home to work and set up businesses on and is a centre for yachting and fishing. the island, but, again, the issue is access and we cannot A sustainable high-value, low-volume tourism industry get away from that. would inject cash into the community while minimising The potential for stimulating St. Helena’s economy to negative impacts. St. Helena needs that to survive. On enable Saints overseas to find jobs on the island is 13 May, Lord Davies of Oldham accurately stated that currently extremely limited. Apart from a modest “the airport is about the development of that society, and the only agricultural potential and fluctuating availability of fish prospect of development is tourism. The airport is therefore in its coastal waters, the island has no known natural about how you get tourists in sufficient numbers to make resources. The existing arrangements for access by sea an impact on the economy.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 13 May 2009; Vol. 710, c. 1094.] effectively prevent the development of any method by which the island’s economy can grow. The modest St. Helena currently receives around £18 million a passenger-carrying capacity of RMS St. Helena and year in subsidies from the UK taxpayer. That figure is any of its replacements limits the number of tourists already predicted to rise to £25 million for the next that can visit the island. The cost of shipping goods to fiscal year. Without an airport, such support will have and from Africa and the United Kingdom together to increase yet further. Continued reliance on access by with the time scales involved make the development of sea means continued reliance on subsidies to maintain any industry involving the physical movement of goods essential services at acceptable standards. It also means uncompetitive. the continued stagnation of the economy and, in all likelihood, a resumption of the emigration of economically High communication costs do the same for possible active residents. The result of that will be an increase in activities such as call centres. The development of financial subsidies from the British taxpayer and the deterioration services has been ruled out by the British Government and ultimate destruction of St. Helena and its unique on policy grounds. The only possible method of economic and irreplaceable culture. development is tourism. It was as a result of that Without an airport we are simply talking about managing consideration that an airport was first suggested as the decline, and without an airport, St. Helena has no only practicable means of getting tourists to and from future. The Atkins feasibility study, commissioned by the island in sufficient numbers. the UK Government in 2005, estimated annual revenues In January 2002, 71 per cent. of islanders, both at of between £1 million and £33 million from tourism up home and abroad, voted in favour of an airport being to a period of 20 years after the opening of an airport. built. In April 2005, following the overwhelming vote of That was confirmed by the Minister in the House on support, the British Government announced plans to 9 March. The figure is almost twice the value of the construct an airport on St. Helena to bolster the island’s current subsidy by the UK taxpayer. economy and reduce its isolation. Impregilo S.p.A. of A new consultation on access to the island was published Milan was selected as the preferred tender to design, on 9 April this year, the Thursday before Easter. As build and operate the airport. with the announcement of a pause in the airport project With the British Government’s promise to build the in the run-up to Christmas last, the timing seems to airport, the island’s population ceased to decline, and have been designed to attract as little interest and attention there has been substantial investment in developing the as possible. The document lists three options: option A island’s tourism industry. In addition to the recent is to build the airport now; option B is to decide now acquisition of the Consulate hotel by an overseas investor, not to build the airport and commission a new ship to the St. Helena Leisure Corporation is planning a sustainable replace RMS St. Helena; and option C is to defer a development to include a six-star hotel, spa and leisure decision on the airport for another five years and either resort to be created in partnership with Oberoi Hotels. extend the life of the ship or charter a replacement Such a development would form a key part of the vessel in future. Government’s tourism policies by providing the quality Why are other practical aspects of the Department of accommodation required, and it would serve as a for International Development’s support to St. Helena significant point of attraction to the island. SHELCO on pause or being held back pending the outcome of also proposes to invest in a whole range of local businesses the consultation? At a time when St. Helena most needs to provide visitors with restaurants, horse riding facilities, assistance in planning and coping with the uncertainty deep sea fishing and fresh food as part of a holistic of the future, there appears to be a ban on DFID solution to regenerate the whole of the island’s economy. representatives visiting the island. It would be helpful if St. Helena has some stunning scenery, but I am the Minister answered that question. ashamed to say that I have never seen it. I have been The consultation is unnecessary, and it is an expensive selected twice for a Commonwealth Parliamentary diversion. It will cost upwards of £40,000, for which Association delegation. The first time I was on the UK taxpayers will foot the bill. Saints have already reserve list, and the second time I was unable to go voted overwhelmingly in favour of building an airport, because RMS St. Helena broke down and the timing and the Government promised in 2005 that an airport was changed. However, I have seen the most fantastic would be built by 2011-12. The 2002 referendum produced photographs of the scenery. The coastline of the island a vote in favour of an airport, and a decision to proceed comprises high vertical cliffs cut by steep-sided v-shaped was announced by DFID in March 2005. valleys, and a good network of roads makes much of In any case, the consultation process is not intended the island accessible. However, the best of St. Helena is to be used so late in the decision-making sequence. As seen on foot, and there are some magnificent walks and the DFID code of practice for consultation clearly states: hikes to be had on the island. St. Helena has other “The consultation exercise should be scheduled as early as famous attractions such as Jacob’s Ladder, Plantation possible in the project plan”. 105WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 106WH

The 2002 referendum took place exactly in keeping with Building a new ship will not provide sufficient capacity that advice, and the result should be heeded and acted for St. Helena to develop a tourism industry, nor will it upon now by the Government. Protracted delays since arrest the continued, irreversible decline, and it makes the decision to go ahead was made in 2005 have led no financial sense for the British taxpayer. Building a many Saints in the UK and elsewhere to lose faith in the new ship also makes no logistical sense. RMS St. Helena sincerity of the promise given by Her Majesty’s currently travels to the island only 33 times a year, and Government. only twice a year from the UK. When the ship is Saints see the consultation as a poorly disguised way dry-docked, there is no access to the island. That can be of killing the airport project, without using so many a matter of life and death for inhabitants who require words, particularly given that it ends before the Reading urgent medical treatment. There is also considerable sports day on August 30, which is the largest annual anxiety on the island that should the ship be disabled gathering of Saints in the UK—some 2,000 or 3,000 for any reason, the island would be cut off for an Saints could have been asked for their views at the indefinite period. The option of continuing sea-only event. I hope that the St. Helena Government informally access and the risks that that brings will prolong indefinitely gauge the level of support for the airport project at the reliance on such a tenuous lifeline. sports day, so that we can report back to the House. Most, if not all, will be in support. The Reading sports Deferring a decision on the airport for another five day was known about and ignored by DFID. Consequently, years—option C in the consultation document—is without Saints feel embittered and badly let down, and I would question the worst option of all. Financially, a five-year be grateful if the Minister commented on that aspect of delay will benefit nobody, least of all the British taxpayer. the timing of the consultation. The additional cost of the delay could be as much as £100 million. The consultation document concedes on The consultation document provides inadequate page 17 that the cost of building the airport and its information on a number of areas: the impact assessment essential support facilities, including roads, a new bulk mandated by criterion 3.5 of the code of practice is fuel farm and water supplies, a wharf at Rupert’s bay sparse, to say the least; information on the influence of and inshore sea rescue services, will increase in the event the recession, which is apparently a key consideration, of such a delay. is sketchy to say the least; and there is a total absence of any meaningful assessment of the impact on St. Helena The consultation document also accepts that a delay of the preferred option of a five-year delay in making a would mean a loss of confidence in the bid process, decision. That is unacceptable. which was at an advanced stage. Potential investors Furthermore, the funding argument for a delay or would understandably lose interest and the prospect for cheaper alternative is based on the assertion that DFID economic sustainability would be further set back as has to decide between the competing claims of overseas skilled workers continued to leave the island. Postponing territories, such as St. Helena, and aid projects that are a decision for five years would leave St. Helena in limbo, needed in other countries. However, there is an obvious with no direction for the future, and condemn the island contradiction, because page 2 of the executive summary to depending on more and more subsidies just to maintain states: the status quo. Meanwhile, as the cost of building the “The UK has special obligations towards our Overseas Territories. airport increased, investors would lose interest and The people of the Overseas Territories are British citizens. The the British Government would be tempted to abandon UK remains committed to meeting their reasonable assistance the scheme. needs and to helping them move towards economic self-sufficiency”. Moreover, article 73 of the UN Charter states: If option C were taken, the need for an airport would “Members of the United Nations which have or assume increase, but the prospect of building it would recede, responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples thus condemning the island and its population to have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize terminal decline. St. Helena simply cannot afford to the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories wait five more years with no guarantee that an airport are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to will be built. With prolonged uncertainty over access promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and disillusion over economic prospects at home, outward and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of migration is liable to resume, with serious adverse the inhabitants of these territories”. consequences for maintaining a viable society and It is clear that the needs of the third world, however economy. worthy, should be secondary to the obligation to our own citizens. The Government argue for delay on the grounds of Deciding not to build the airport and commissioning the global recession and the resulting state of public another ship—option B in the consultation—would finances in the UK, but that is a short-sighted represent an enormous waste of taxpayers’ money approach. Building an airport now is the best solution on the access project, which has amounted to some for everyone. For the United Kingdom taxpayer, it £8 million to date. During the past 20 years, the UK would provide a tangible return on investment and taxpayer has spent more than £330 million at today’s reduce, if not end, the need for subsidies. Saints do not prices in subsidies to St. Helena. That is more than the want to live on handouts from the British people. They do cost of building the airport. The Minister stated on not want charity. They want desperately to stand on 27 March, as I am sure he remembers, that it will cost their own two feet, and it is up to this country to up to £75 million to build a replacement for RMS help them do so. Building an airport now is the only St. Helena. That is almost a third of the cost of the option that would give them the chance to manage airport and would be in addition to the continued and their own affairs. Surely that is a “reasonable assistance increasing annual subsidy to the island, which would need”, as stated in page 2 of the consultation still be required. document. 107WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 108WH

[Ann Winterton] Government’s sensible policy of tackling the recession by accelerating, not deferring, infrastructural investment. All parties including the Government agree that building As we have heard, the consultation has now been published. an airport is the only answer to the problem of long-term It covers the same ground as previous consultations and financial dependency. Even the certainty of building it the 2002 referendum. Incidentally, I hope that this will stimulate the economy and encourage significant debate will be accepted and considered as part of the investment. The Minister said on 13 March that response to the consultation. “without an airport, St. Helena will remain dependent on UK What we need from the Minister is a Government budgetary aid indefinitely…with the introduction of air access commitment to get on and resolve the situation. If there and development of the island’s tourism industry, the need for are alternatives to the airport that offer St. Helena a financial support would reduce progressively with the increasing potential for St. Helena to become self sufficient in the long future—as we have heard, nobody who has considered term.”—[Official Report, 13 March 2009; Vol. 492, c. 856W.] the issue has come up with one so far—we would need to know what they are, how they would work and, I could not have put it better myself. especially, how they would address the point explored so effectively by the hon. Lady: the island’s continued 2.51 pm acute dependency and the decline of its social fabric due to an ageing population. Otherwise, that dependency Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): I congratulate will stretch on, at a cost of £25 million and rising. What the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) on is more, hope will be drained from the islanders. securing this important and timely debate. She is right to say that the House and the Government must listen As the hon. Lady said, the people of St. Helena want to the views of, and address the needs of the people of, to stand on their own two feet. It must be right to help St. Helena. The arguments are simple, and she ably set them do so. I hope that in replying, my hon. Friend the out the relevant points. Minister will give us firm assurances that the acid test for the Government’s decision and future policy will be Like the hon. Lady, I was stimulated to take an the economic, cultural and social viability of St. Helena interest in St. Helena by my constituents. I am fortunate and the welfare of its citizens. They are loyal to us, and to have in my constituency a community of Saints and we must be loyal to them and their future. many families with origins and connections in St. Helena. When we had a Labour club in Headington, it was the base for the St. Helena community and their social 2.56 pm activity, and I got to know many of the families, building ties of friendship that have spanned more than 30 years. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I, too, They are hard-working and loyal British citizens who congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann understandably want to be able more easily to visit their Winterton) on securing this debate and demonstrating island of origin and to see its economy—and thus its again that despite St. Helena’s distance and its relatively cultural and community viability—secured for the future. small number of inhabitants, as well as those Saints Although, against the backdrop of all that we need to living in the UK, many parliamentarians take seriously do to combat change, it is right that any development of the responsibilities that this country owes to our overseas airports be closely scrutinised, the location of St. Helena, territories. I will not make a long speech, as I had my 1,200 miles from south-west Africa, surely makes a own Westminster Hall debate on this subject a few strong case. Indeed, that case has been considered, months ago, but some of the issues bear repeating and thoroughly evaluated and approved, and a promise has considering in greater depth. been made. Overseas territories that receive budgetary aid from As my constituents, Mr. and Mrs. Brooks of Rose the UK Government do so through the Department for Hill, wrote to me earlier this year: International Development. That creates a number of “The airport is vital to reduce the isolation of over 4,000 problems. In our previous debate, the Minister compared inhabitants who are loyal British citizens and give them and the support given to the people of St. Helena to support thousands of other ‘Saints’ who have been forced to seek work given to people in developing countries. I hope sincerely abroad hope for a better future. In December the Government that he will not do so today. Although we have a moral announced a ‘pause’ in its negotiations over the contract. The responsibility to help people in developing countries—a announcement effectively brings the project to a halt. It appears responsibility that this Government have taken more that the Treasury refused to grant the money. The decision came seriously than any previous Government—we have legal as a huge shock to islanders, who had voted in support of the responsibilities to the people who live in our overseas scheme. Many ‘Saints’ had plans to return to the island and find employment during the construction of the airport and develop territories. To counterpose the two is most unhelpful business opportunities as a result of it. It would also enable many and does not take us further forward. Development aid of us to return home to visit our family within a reasonable to people in developing countries is given for all sorts of period of time, since we currently have to be away from the UK good reasons, but just as we have had to consider how for three weeks to spend one week on the island.” to develop the regions of our country—our policies to In response to the representations that I made on close the gap between the poorer regions of the UK and behalf of our St. Helena community, and after I received the south-east have been important to economic policy a petition, my hon. Friend the Minister told me in a here in Britain—we must take seriously closing the letter of 11 April what had already been announced: enormous gap between the situation of British citizens “Negotiations for a contract to build an airport in St. Helena in our overseas territories and British citizens who live were paused in December 2008 in the light of the changed here. economic climate.” I will concentrate briefly on the social issues. The We should reflect on the phrase “the changed economic hon. Lady covered the wide range of issues important climate”. It puzzled me and seemed to contradict the to the debate, but I want to focus a bit more on the 109WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 110WH social fabric. Successful societies have a diverse range of invested hugely, is sheer madness. We should move people of all ages. One issue facing western Europe ahead with the airport and give a real future to the generally is an ageing population, so we must consider people of St. Helena. Without doing so, can this how to get more people in to support the economy and Government say in all conscience that they are meeting so forth. their responsibilities to this overseas territory? Like a number of our overseas territories, St. Helena has a small society. It needs people of all ages if it is to 3.4 pm be successful, not just economically, but socially. If the economy does not enable people of working age to stay Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): It is a pleasure to on St. Helena, the social side will suffer. These are not serve under your chairmanship, Mrs. Dean. I congratulate short-term problems. If children are not brought up by the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) on their parents because one or both of them have to work securing the debate and the measured way she put her away from the island, that will impact on their long-term compelling case for the airport, which is necessary for emotional well-being. If children have to stay with the economic future of the island. I congratulate the other people, all sorts of issues can arise. hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) on her I do not want to suggest that the people of St. Helena contribution, which follows on from the debate that she are different from any other society. However, we know secured earlier this year. I also congratulate the right that when children grow up with other families, whether hon. Member for Oxford, East (Mr. Smith) on his through fostering or informal care, problems arise. My contribution. background is in social work, which I did for many I also congratulate the hon. Member for North-East years. I have seen the kinds of problems that children Milton Keynes (Mr. Lancaster), although he has not face in such situations. We know that those can be spoken yet. As a member of Her Majesty’s Opposition, exacerbated in smaller societies because there are fewer he has done something that no Minister has ever done: people with the resources to provide support. If, in visited the island of St. Helena to see it first hand. What addition, the time that it takes for people to return to a pity that no Minister has ever bothered to do so. their families is exacerbated by poor transport links, Royalty have managed to visit more than once and it is that will affect children who, for example, become ill a shame that Her Majesty’s Government have never and need to see their parents. Those things can be sent a Minister there. The Government have come up damaging and we must take them seriously. with schemes and then dashed hopes. It was a shameful Elderly people do not face only the issue of whether act that, having taken the island so near to the they can get the right medical care and support. People commencement of work, the Government pulled the thrive more if they have regular contact with their plug. families. We often worry in the UK that people move I must declare an interest as chairman of the all-party away from where they grew up—for all sorts of reasons, island of St. Helena group. The patron saint of Colchester such as jobs—and do not support their elderly parents. is St. Helena, although it is pronounced differently. My How much more difficult must that be for people who wife, our three children and I were all taught at St. Helena live thousands of miles away from their elderly parents, school, although that is not why I ended up as chairman and for whom it would take several days to return? of the all-party group. It is because, like other hon. I believe that if we invest in the island by creating an Members, a constituent contacted me. In 1996, one of airport and opening up access, this society has real the first letters I received explained that a previous potential. That is not just a wish that comes out of the Government had withdrawn British citizenship. It is to air. It is based on the experience of another of our the credit of this Government that they restored full overseas territories. The Falkland Islands had a population British citizenship to the overseas territories. that was in decline and had relatively few elderly people St. Helena’s pedigree predates the Union of England because the resources for them were so poor that many and Scotland. It was under the Crown of England had left. As a result of an event that none of us would before Great Britain existed. That is how strong its have wished on the Falkland Islanders—the war of the pedigree is. The islanders feel British; they are British. early ’80s—the UK Government invested hugely in that Why can they not be treated like British subjects, rather territory. than as if they live in a country that has no connection The Government built roads. When I had the privilege with Britain and that we have no responsibility for? to visit the Falklands, I was surprised to learn that there Quite rightly, the Department for International were few roads there before the conflict. The Government Development provides funds. That is to the credit of gave hospital support. A whole range of support is now successive Governments and all political parties agree available. The Falklands can sell fishing licences, and that it should happen, but the people who live on the economy is doing well. It has fewer residents than St. Helena should not be in receipt of international St. Helena. Elderly people who grew up on the Falkland development aid. They are British citizens and should Islands and then left because of the lack of support be treated as such. have returned. The hospital can undertake a wide range It is worth pointing out the fact that residents of of medical procedures because of its links to other St. Helena serve in Her Majesty’s armed forces. I do not hospitals through technology and advice. Surgeons from know what the statistics are now, but a few years ago I the UK can also fly out there to undertake operations in came up with a great pub question: which country has a relatively short time. the most people per head of population serving in Her The future for the people of St. Helena could be so Majesty’s armed forces? Of course, the answer was much brighter. I will not go into the economic case St. Helena. More than 50 were serving then, which is a because it is blindingly obvious. To delay at a time when high percentage of a population of little more than we have the support of the private sector, which has 4,000. 111WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 112WH

[Bob Russell] the RMS St. Helena, including the cost of repairing or replacing it. We also have the certain knowledge that As hon. Members have said, there is now just an the capital costs will go up every year that the project is ageing population at one end and a young population at delayed. The simple maths is that an airport will make the other because the economic generators have had to the island of St. Helena self-sufficient at the end of leave the island in large numbers to secure economic 10 years. That has to be a bargain. It makes economic benefits for themselves and their families. Interestingly, sense. some of those people find work on the Falkland Islands. I recognise that it is not easy to get the Government I have said in jocular fashion in the past what a pity it is to accept economic sense, but the sums are quite simple—the that the Argentineans did not invade St. Helena as well, Minister and his officials can do them. That is the because invasion was the saving grace for the Falkland economic case, but there are people living on the island Islanders. and they deserve an airport, although I do not see that I accuse the Government of economic apartheid. The happening. vast majority of people, if not the entire population, on I cannot commit my party, but I shall work as hard as the Falklands are white. Overwhelmingly, the population I can on this issue because I have spent my entire of St. Helena is not white. The Government are treating political life arguing that we should invest to save and to two island communities in the south Atlantic totally provide services, facilities and amenities to improve differently. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been people’s quality of life. That is what the airport would do. pumped into the Falkland Islands while the Government Obviously the Minister cannot do it today, but I urge treat the people of St. Helena as second-class citizens. him to work behind the scenes to convince the bean That extends even to the people from St. Helena who counters in the Government that this is a clear case of helped to liberate the Falkland Islands on the RMS the capital cost paying for itself at the end of 10 years. St. Helena, all of whom have been denied the South Thereafter, there will be no need for the British taxpayer Atlantic medal. to make any revenue contributions to the people and It is not the fault of those people that they were not in the island of St. Helena. The island will be self-sufficient, the exclusion zone long enough. They went down there, the population will grow, the children will be able to but were kept out until they were required to go in. It is grow up with a full family network and everybody will appalling that successive Governments have not even be a winner. recognised the bravery of people from the island I urge the Government to go with the option of of St. Helena, who gave up their only means of building the airport now because the do-nothing option communication—the RMS—only for Governments to is far more expensive. tell them, “You can’t have a medal.” That is shameful. As another aside, I should say that five girl guides and two guide leaders from the island will come to the 3.14 pm UK next year as part of the centenary of girl guiding. Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) Funds are being raised. Would it not be nice if the (Con): It is a pleasure to contribute to this timely Government chipped in? Two years ago, the island just debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member managed to raise sufficient money for one scout to for Congleton (Ann Winterton) on securing it. Having come here for the centenary of scouting in Hylands listened to what she had to say, I am amazed that she park, Essex. That young man was away from the island has not been to the island, such was the informed level for about a month because of the problems with the of her comments. She gave us a passionate speech, connection provided by the RMS and the TriStar from which outlined very well many of the concerns that I Ascension. Little wonder people from the island feel heard about when I was on the island. I would also like betrayed. to take this opportunity—I am sure that I speak on There is not a single MP here today to support the behalf of all hon. Members here today—to thank Calvin Minister, which is not surprising because he does not Thomas, who is a St. Helenian, for his many years of believe half the things he will be saying in a few minutes. service to Parliament. He does not believe, although he may want to contradict The right hon. Member for Oxford, East (Mr. Smith) me, that the cancellation, postponement, deferment or also gave us an informed and passionate contribution delay of the airport is the right thing to do—of course it on behalf of his constituents. The hon. Member for is not. Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who is a former Minister, Let us look just at the economics and the finance, made a powerful argument as to why we should make a because the Government are clearly not listening to the decision. Likewise, the hon. Member for Colchester people of the island of St. Helena or to the arguments (Bob Russell), who has put in many hours as the chairman about their needs and welfare. Whether the issue is of the all-party group on the island of St. Helena, made families, human rights, employment or tourism, the an equally powerful contribution. There seems to be a Government have not listened to any of the arguments consensus on both sides of the House, and I hope that in favour of the airport. They say, “It’s the economics. the Minister is listening to what is being said. It’s the downturn in the economy. We can’t afford it.” I want to take this opportunity to reaffirm the However, the simple maths shows that providing an Conservative party’s commitment to our overseas territories. airport would take the island from being a net recipient There is a feeling that they have been neglected to a of aid to self-sufficiency and surplus within 10 years. degree over previous years, although, that said, I pay We have heard the figures. The annual subsidy will be tribute once again to the hon. Member for Sheffield, £25 million and rising. The simple maths—the Minister Heeley for her previous work. That neglect is precisely can do it on the back of a fag packet—is that we have why my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield the subsidy and the cost of the airport minus the cost of (Mr. Mitchell) was absolutely determined that I should 113WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 114WH go to St. Helena—as we have heard, that is very difficult Let me be clear: the islanders are utterly exhausted by given the access issues, and it is particularly difficult the 26-year process and feel that any further studies will when Parliament is sitting—to experience at first hand the add little value because just about every piece of information concerns of islanders and to listen to their comments. that can be has been gleaned from them and the island. I was absolutely delighted to go the island last month. Let me also be clear that if the Government get their I want to put on record my thanks to the governor— way and impose a five-year pause, and if the air access Andrew Gurr—the executive council and all the islanders route is subsequently followed, it will be at least another for their hospitality during my three days there. I had an nine years before an airport is delivered, given the incredibly busy programme. I spoke to nearly all the key four-year construction period. The current consultation, stakeholders and had a series of public meetings, including which was announced in March 2009, is viewed as a formal ones and less formal ones in the pub, which was sham by many islanders, most of whom are deeply fun, if I am honest. The pub is a good place to meet disillusioned, and, unfortunately, many of them will not St. Helenians, who are wonderful people. St. Helena is a participate. After years of engagement with DFID wonderful island with a unique character, and I think that consultants, they feel that they have made their views we all agree that whatever happens in the future, we plain. have an obligation to ensure that that character is During my time on the island, I was constantly maintained. That must be at the forefront of our minds. referred to a brief section on overseas territories in the Although the debate is about the future of the island, 1997 DFID White Paper, which states at paragraph 2.28: it is worth talking about the situation today. Of the “The Government reaffirms its responsibilities for Britain’s current £20 million-plus given by DFID each year, 13 remaining Dependent Territories...The reasonable assistance approximately £12 million is required to balance the needs of the Dependent Territories are a first call on the development island’s budget. In the past 10 years, the population has program.” declined from just over 5,000 to 4,000, and UK aid to There was real anger that NGOs that have no the island has risen from £10 million a year to more involvement with the island have been invited to comment than £20 million. on the consultation. As fiercely loyal British citizens, and in light of the White Paper commitment, islanders do not understand why, to quote an islander, they 3.15 pm should be Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. “lumped together and wait in line with non-British third-world countries”. 3.30 pm The islanders hate being dependent on aid, and they On resuming— desperately want to be self-sufficient. They feel that the status quo of managed decline is unacceptable and will Mr. Lancaster: Before we were interrupted, I was simply lead to further decline. Although the relationship about to move on to the current access arrangements has improved in recent years, thanks mainly to the for the island—the Government-subsidised RMS sterling efforts of the DFID’s island representative, St. Helena. Simply maintaining the current arrangements Mr. Eddie Palmer, DFID is, unfortunately, still widely will limit the prospects for economic growth on the viewed with suspicion on the island. DFID is seen as a island. After my visit there, it is hard for me to disagree micro-managing organisation that has sent a stream of with the common view on the island that DFID is consultants to write reports that recommend actions simply managing the island’s decline. I am sure that the that are never implemented due to lack of funding. I Minister agrees that we cannot allow that view to continue. cannot emphasise enough how badly let down the islanders St. Helenians are fiercely proud of their British citizenship feel by the Government’s dithering and indecision over and have a long history of service to the Crown, as the the airport, especially given that the project was signed hon. Member for Colchester has said. It is important to off by the Secretary of State, only to be reversed, out of remember that the island has no indigenous population the blue, eight weeks later. and was created entirely by the British, but I am afraid that islanders feel incredibly let down by the current Ann Winterton: What does my hon. Friend think Government in particular. happened between 16 October 2008, when the Secretary The access problem has been recognised for some of State entered final negotiations, and the pause that time. Civil Aviation Authority studies carried out in was imposed seven or eight weeks later on 8 December? 1973 and 1984 led to the initial air access feasibility I might ask the Minister the same question in due study in 1999. A referendum of islanders in 2002 showed course. What does my hon. Friend think happened in that 71.6 per cent. of voters favoured air access over a that period to change the Government’s view? replacement ship. A further, detailed feasibility study carried out in early 2005 led to expressions of interest in a contract for the design, building and operation of the Mr. Lancaster: If only I knew. That is a key question, airport being issued in December 2005. In 2006, all four which I, too, was going to ask the Minister. All I can say bidders pulled out because of concerns about risk allocation, to my hon. Friend is that the excuse about the economic and new expressions of interest were issued in September downturn has been dismissed by islanders, because the 2006; I shall return to that point in a moment. Following looming recession was already anticipated when the St. Helenian Government approval, Impregilo was selected document was signed in October. It is an incredibly as the preferred airport tender in October 2008. A few hollow argument that within that eight-week period, weeks later, in December 2008, the Secretary of State given that the agreement was first signed in October, the announced the pause. economic recession suddenly loomed out of nowhere. 115WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 116WH

[Mr. Lancaster] of actual investment has taken place. The anger among the private sector was palpable and there was a complete Let me say a few words on private sector involvement. lack of trust in Her Majesty’s Government as a result, The consortium Shelco has been involved in the process which is something it will take a long time to repair. since May 2002, with a view to providing a private It is also important to remember that the airport finance initiative and operating a high-end tourist resort formed the heart of a wider programme of infrastructure on the island. It has secured an option on a 400-acre site improvement on the island. The island needs new diesel on the island from Solomons—the 60 per cent. majority, storage tanks—it recently came within 72 hours of St. Helenian Government-owned land owner—but that running out of diesel—a new road infrastructure, new option runs out at the end of 2009, so timing is important. port facilities and a new electricity generating plant. I Some islanders are concerned about the price that experienced two power cuts while I was on the island, will be paid, both financially and in relation to the and I was assured that they were not arranged especially island way of life, for Shelco’s involvement. There are for me. All that has now been put on hold as a result of also concerns that a monopoly situation would emerge, the pause. The entire economic development plan of the with flights being unaffordable for islanders and with island has been based on the provision of an airport. insufficient financial benefit being retained by the island to ensure economic growth. The private sector route Bob Russell: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that, remains an attractive option, but there are concerns in addition to the economic benefits that he has just that there is insufficient private sector expertise in either described, the construction of the airport would require DFID or the St. Helena Government to negotiate with a new dock area and a new haul road to be built? That any potential operator to ensure that the best value deal would also benefit sea transportation to the island and for both the UK taxpayer and islanders is negotiated. provide a further boost to the island’s economy. The previous invitation-for-proposal route failed when all the contractors pulled out, because there was too Mr. Lancaster: That is exactly the point that I am great a gulf between the private sector and the Government. trying to make when I say that investment in the airport Insufficient communication and round-table negotiation is so much more than a matter of the airport itself. The led to it being impossible for a satisfactory outcome to airport is now on pause and, frankly, islanders simply be achieved. If that route were pursued, a more sequenced, do not know what to do because of the uncertainty and negotiated approach would be required, and if the indecision. It has been repeated to me again and again Department lacks the skill to do that, outside support that no decision is the worst decision, because of the would have to be sought. inability to plan In summary, I must tell the Minister that my impression Before I conclude, I want to look briefly at the from my visit was that DFID is effectively managing the recommendations in the consultation paper. Option A decline of the island through aid but very little development. is to build an airport, which is undoubtedly the preferred option of the islanders. Although they would prefer an Meg Munn: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman entirely publicly funded airport, that is clearly unlikely has estimated what that period of decline might be. He in the current economic climate. However, as the Minister may be aware that another overseas territory, the Pitcairn admitted in May, it is clear that eventually an airport Islands, has, of Pitcairners, only about 47 people living will have to be built, if the island is going to develop there, and that the end of the period when that community economically. It is also clear that doing so will not get can remain viable is not clear. Given that there are 4,000 any cheaper as time passes. Private sector partners—Shelco people on St. Helena, does he have any idea how long and Impregilo—remain interested and business models that management of decline might go on, and therefore exist that show there would be a positive internal rate of how long UK taxpayers’ money will be needed to return after 15 years or so with only modest visitor support those people? numbers. I understand that Impregilo wrote to the Minister on 30 April and offered to extend its arrangement Mr. Lancaster: The hon. Lady makes a reasonable until 30 June. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that point. We seem to be doing nothing more than and say whether he has replied to the letter and answered administering life support at the moment, which is why some of its many questions. we have to do something, rather than kick this issue into The Government’s commitment to maintaining current the long grass. It is a key concern that infrastructure access levels equates to investing at least £70 million in a projects have been identified by a whole sequence of new ship. There is a mood on the island that that money DFID representatives, but are rarely funded. could be used to prime the private sector development Worse still, the pause that was introduced following while maintaining a degree of St. Helenian Government the change of heart over the airport has been very control over the project, which is crucial. Ironically, that damaging to the island economically. That view has was the original model proposed after the 2004 feasibility been emphasised to me during meetings with the chamber study. Why is that no longer an option, and why was it of commerce, the St. Helenian development agency and not included in the consultation document? the building union, and the issue has caused enormous Option B is to replace RMS St. Helena, which is the resentment among the islanders and the 10,000 Saints preferred option of a minority on the island, in order to who live in the UK who feel utterly let down by the maintain the character of the island. Effectively, that Government. During a dinner with representatives of would maintain the status quo of managed decline on the private sector, I was told that, as a direct result of the island. However, limited improvements could be the confirmation in October 2008 that the airport project made to access by having a faster ship and changing the would go ahead, approximately £57 million of pledged schedule, so that the ship simply serves the Cape Town- private sector investment was made, of which £18 million St. Helena-Ascension triangle by removing the twice 117WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 118WH annual trips to the UK and relying on trans-shipping reinforce the point that no decision has yet been taken cargo in Cape Town instead. Interestingly, when I met and that we will take it only after the consultation has the ship’s crew, they confirmed—perhaps surprisingly been completed. given their self-interest—that they had an overwhelming desire for an airport. Bob Russell: Is the Minister asking us to accept that one of the options—to build the airport now—is still Option C is to defer the decision for five years, which very much in the frame or is it there just for the sake is the UK Government’s preferred view and is, ironically, of it? a do-nothing for five years option. If taken today, a decision would delay the building of an airport for at Mr. Michael Foster: All options are listed in the least nine years. Having visited the island, that is clearly consultation paper. The Government have indicated the worst possible option, and it has been overwhelmingly what they consider the preferred position, but if option rejected by islanders, because it would cause considerable A was not going to be considered, we would not have damage to the island for reasons already stated. The put it in the consultation document. I can assure the early signs of the hastened economic decline as a result hon. Gentleman of that. of the Government’s change of heart are already evident on the island. Interestingly, there was resentment on the Let me begin by reassuring hon. Members that the island in some quarters that no opportunity was given pause in the process in no way represents a dilution of to islanders to suggest other options, such as a flying the Government’s commitment to meet the reasonable boat service, a smaller runway or a faster boat service. needs of St. Helena. Let me make two things clear. After investigation, it appears that those options were First, the Government are not proposing to reduce their looked at by the 2004 Atkins report and rejected. Having financial assistance to the island, which stands at discussed them with the island’s Executive Council, it is approximately £20 million a year—in other words, around clear that the extra time required to explore those £5,000 for every man, woman and child resident on the options again would simply add to the pause and be island. Secondly, the Government are not proposing to unacceptable to an island that desperately needs a decision. reduce access to the island from the level it has enjoyed over the past 20 years. In conclusion, I say to the Minister that having been The question is therefore not whether we are discharging there, it is absolutely clear what the islanders’ view is— our responsibilities towards the people of St. Helena; it in fact, I sense that he already knows what their view is. is, in fact, whether—in addition to our ongoing assistance He is a Minister who stands tall among his colleagues to the island—the Government are in a position to and I only hope that, in the final days of this Government, finance the construction of an airport, which would he will take the opportunity to do one thing as a require some £230 million to £260 million extra in aid Minister that he knows he can achieve. I ask him to be over the next five years. In other words, it would involve bold, be strong, be tall and make a decision, because I an extra £57,000 to £65,000 for every man, woman and assure him that if this Government are not prepared to child resident on the island, on top of the £5,000 a year take a decision on the island for the future benefit of that I have already mentioned. St. Helena, the next Government will. Mr. Lancaster: What the Minister said is perfectly reasonable. I simply ask him to rule out the do-nothing 3.45 pm option. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): It is Mr. Foster: I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s always a pleasure to see you chairing such debates, comments and answer the questions he and others Mrs. Dean. I extend my congratulations to the hon. asked at the same time, because this issue affects hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) on securing Members from all parties. the debate after, it seems, much trying and echo the I shall put the choice in context. We have paused the comments made by the hon. Member for North-East project not only because the costs I have highlighted are Milton Keynes (Mr. Lancaster) about her contribution. three times higher than the estimates we had at the time, I know that she is retiring from the House at the which we committed to the project in 2005, but because next general election, but given what she said about the world has taken on a very different complexion St. Helena and its attractions, I am sure that there will from that of the economic environment in which our always be a career for her in the tourism industry. previous planning took place.

Given the frequency with which we seem to debate Bob Russell: Does the Minister anticipate that capital the issue of St. Helena, it is good to be among what building costs will fall during a five-year pause? Assuming some people would call the usual suspects—I like to call that that is not the case, does he agree that 10 years of them my friends. I value their contributions and I will subsidy at £25 million a year roughly equates to the address the points that they have made. We have plenty capital cost of building the airport? Thus, in year 11, of time to do so and there is no rush. the island of St. Helena would move from being dependent We are at an important point in the process in that, on the British taxpayer to self-sufficiency and then this week, the facilitated consultation referred to in the surplus. debate gets under way on the island. We shall await the outcome of the consultation process before reaching a Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting decision, and with that in mind I suspect that hon. point about what might happen to future costs. All I Members will not be surprised to hear that I can add would say is that not just the basic raw material costs, little to what I said in this Chamber during a similar but the important impact that the exchange rate has, debate about St. Helena on 17 March. However, I must be considered. I shall deal with that shortly. 119WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 120WH

Ann Winterton: I have two brief points to make. British subjects and an overseas territory that is not First, will the Minister answer the question put by my foreign or international, but British. We have a duty and hon. Friend the Member for North-East Milton Keynes? a responsibility to the people of that island, which we He asked what caused the pause between October and now appear to be neglecting by introducing a shameful December when the Government decided that they pause in delivering the promise that the Government would not go ahead with the airport and that there made to them. would be a further consultation. Without the airport, there will be economic decline, The second and important point is that we all live in which none of us wants. A British territory deserves to the real world. We know what the economic difficulties be treated as British, not as foreign or international. are in this country and elsewhere, and that a new airport When will the Government make true the promise that would cost a great deal of money. If by any chance they made to the islanders of St. Helena? further private capital—further investment—could be acquired elsewhere, would the British Government still Mr. Foster: The obligation that the UK Government contribute significantly to the project? If so, will the have towards the overseas territories is being met. They Minister speculate on how great their support might be? have first call for reasonable assistance needs. Perhaps Mr. Foster: I have said that I intend to reply to the some difference of opinion about the definition of question about what happened between autumn and “reasonable assistance needs” will show up as a result of Christmas, but I shall answer it now for the hon. Lady. the consultation document. I suspect that that is the The worsening of economic conditions intensified in bone of contention. the autumn, which brought to the attention of the In DFID’s current position, with the overseas territories Government and my Department the need to look as part of its responsibilities, we have a duty to consider again at what would be, in anyone’s language, a serious what else is going on in the world. At this time, our best investment—a serious chunk of cash—that would have estimate of the impact of the global economic downturn, to be paid out in the next five years. which is acknowledged as one of the most serious On the second question, my Department is perfectly downturns of recent generations, is that 90 million happy and willing to look at any proposals that are more people are living on less than $1.25 a day, there made as a result of the consultation exercise. If the hon. has been an 80 per cent. reduction in capital flows to Lady knows of private sector investors who are willing emerging economies and developing countries, there to make a contribution, I ask her to encourage them to have been reductions in remittances to developing-country present their ideas to the Department. I can assure her households and an estimated 1.4 million more infant that they would not be ignored. deaths are likely to occur up to 2015. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Will the Minister Meg Munn: I said in my speech that I hoped the give way? Minister would not repeat those facts, as he did last time. That was not because some of us do not believe Mr. Foster: May I make more progress? that the Government should respond to problems in the My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley developing world, but because the reality is that if the (Meg Munn) and the hon. Members for Colchester situation on St. Helena deteriorates, or if, as I suggested, (Bob Russell) and for North-East Milton Keynes asked some problematic social situation arises, the British in different ways why overseas territories are part of Government will have to deal with the results. DFID’s responsibility. I have to be perfectly honest and admit that that is an interesting question. We have a legal responsibility that goes beyond the moral responsibility that we all feel for international My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley development. It is that legal responsibility, which was will know from her time as a Foreign Office Minister set out by the United Nations, that hon. Members are with responsibility for overseas territories that there are asking the Government to fulfil. The overseas territories differing views in Whitehall about exactly how overseas are different, which is why we do not think it appropriate territories should be treated and who is responsible for for the Minister to counter-pose real and important their management and the funding that goes with it. development issues. The debate has gone on for some time. I have looked at the issue across the 12 years of this Government and before that. There has been a debate about who has Mr. Foster: I know that my hon. Friend asked me not responsibility because of the perceived conflict that can to put this debate into the context of developing countries exist between meeting the first-call, reasonable needs of and other needs, but, unfortunately for her, that is the the overseas territories and, to use the more colourful situation that the Government find themselves in. I language of the hon. Member for North-East Milton would be genuinely interested in—and may look back, Keynes, who quoted a resident of St. Helena, dumping if I can—the record of her time as Foreign Office St. Helena with the third world. [Interruption.] The Minister with responsibility for overseas territories. Did hon. Gentleman was quoting. she make such recommendations and is this something she advocated? This important issue should be debated. There is an issue that needs to be looked at. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that, in government, he The loss in the value of sterling against the United would look at it and rejig the structure of Whitehall, I States dollar over the past year means that in many would be happy to hear his views. countries of the world our aid is not going as far as it did. It has reduced the value of our multilateral payments Andrew Rosindell: I apologise for missing the first and has also had an impact on many of the larger part of the debate, but it is timely to come in on this international non-governmental organisations to which point. Surely the Minister understands that we are we provide funding. DFID’s budget has come under talking about not just finance and economics, but loyal pressure from new calls for aid to protect low-income 121WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 122WH countries that are most vulnerable to the global downturn. Swindon, and she will make further visits to the Falkland For example, we recently agreed to provide £200 million Islands and Ascension Island before the consultation in response to a request from the World Bank for deadline. $5 billion to $6 billion for its vulnerability financing facility, and at the beginning of the year we approved Mr. Lancaster: The consultation ends on 31 July. £100 million of contingency funding for Africa. When will the Government make a decision? There are also growing financial pressures in other overseas territories, which the Government must take Mr. Foster: If the hon. Gentleman shows a little more into account. The value of our aid to Montserrat, for patience, he will see that I will deal with that. He is right example, whose local currency is pegged to the dollar, to mention that the consultation ends on 31 July, after has fallen by 30 per cent. due to exchange rate decline. which there is, under the Government code of conduct, a formal period within which the Government are expected to produce a report based on that consultation. I will Bob Russell: Important though those points are, does outline the details for him in due course. the Minister accept—I do not know how many times I have asked him this question, but he has not answered it—that 10 years of subsidy to the island of St. Helena Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): I apologise roughly equates to the cost of building the airport? At for missing part of the debate. So far, the Minister has the point the airport is built, the island will move from not provided the cost of managing the decline in St. Helena. being dependent on the taxpayer to being self-sufficient It seems that that has been ignored, although it will cost and creating a surplus. Investment will save the British the United Kingdom Government additional sums to taxpayer money—and then there will be more money to manage the decline of that country because of the give to Montserrat and the other countries. island’s failure, which will result from the failure to proceed with the airport.

Mr. Foster: I intend to reply in detail to the hon. Mr. Foster: Many of the calculations that the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the problem is that Montserrat Gentleman seeks were in the report that has been presented is facing its difficulties now and cannot wait 15 years and is publicly available now. Those numbers are already before money becomes available to deal with them. If available to give people an indication of why, when that he does not appreciate the difficulties faced by overseas report was produced, the outcome favoured an airport. territories such as Montserrat, let me tell him that last night its Government fell and there has to be a general When all the responses to the consultation are collated, election. It is facing serious difficulties. together with all written submissions received, we will summarise them in a consultation report that will be Other Caribbean territories have seen tourism fall published in October. I assure the hon. Member for markedly, which is seriously affecting the viability of Congleton that, when we come to make a decision, their economies. As I told the House in March, these which we will do by the end of this year, we will take impacts of the global crisis seriously affect the Government’s those responses into consideration and weigh them up ability to achieve all their international development alongside the shorter-term financial considerations that objectives. An airport for St. Helena represents significant we are contending with. outlay, which is why we have to revisit the choices before us. That is not to say that we are ignoring the special I acknowledge the interest expressed in the debate place that the overseas territories have in the aid programme, and outside by hon. Members who are exploring other but as I said earlier reasonable need cannot amount to ways to improve physical access to the island, because an unqualified commitment, irrespective of circumstances. that is the nub of the issue and of people’s concerns. There is near-universal agreement that the current Ann Winterton: Before the Minister moves on, I circumstances are exceptional. The Government cannot understood him to say that the Government would evade their responsibility to re-examine the case for the come to a decision by the end of the year. Will he give airport at this time, given current circumstances and the an undertaking this afternoon that, if that decision is scale of the expenditure involved. deferred, there will still be a timetable in place so that I want to say a word or two about the consultation, uncertainty about the future of the airport on St. Helena which was mentioned by hon. Members. The consultation can be removed, because as many hon. Members have is an indication that we are not taking this decision said this afternoon, uncertainty is a killer? People on lightly. We are well aware of the importance of the the island and those outside it—those investing—need airport to the Saints who voted for it in the 2002 to know what the future holds if this matter is to be referendum. We are well aware of the social problems, progressed. which have been outlined in the debate, relating to the lack of easy access and a weak economy in St. Helena. Mr. Foster: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. The We launched the consultation to ensure that the delay is important and was mentioned when I spoke to Government can hear from all those who will be affected the governor and representatives from St. Helena when when we come to our eventual decision. they visited me at DFID. The hon. Member for North-East We have made every effort to ensure that the Saints Milton Keynes also made a good point in that regard. will be heard. As I speak, our consultation facilitator is As the hon. Lady says, delay is the killer. on the island, listening to the Saints first hand. This We do not want the debate to be any more protracted evening, she is holding a public meeting at the Kingshurst than it needs to be. Because of the issue of access to community centre, which is one of a series of events St. Helena, we have extended what under Government organised for her around the island during her eight-day guidelines would normally be a 12-week consultation to stay. She has already spoken to Saints in London and a 16-week consultation, just to enable due consideration 123WH St. Helena17 JUNE 2009 St. Helena 124WH

[Mr. Michael Foster] remains unchanged in respect of its commitment. To provide examples of how we are still investing in to be given to people in St. Helena and to allow them to infrastructure, last year DFID provided £5 million of meet the facilitator and genuinely to engage in the infrastructure investment, including £2.25 million for debate. rock-fall protection works in Jamestown. This year, the The hon. Lady mentioned the event in Reading at the Department is making available up to £4.5 million for end of August, at which a number of Saints will be infrastructure investment. present. However, if we waited formally until the end of To ensure that St. Helena can benefit from the higher August before concluding the consultation, that would funding that has been agreed, DFID is supporting the just extend the period by a month. With all due respect, recruitment of experienced engineering managers to I—and I think she—would rather we made a quick improve capacity in the public works and services decision in the hope that the Saints had already taken department on the island. an interest in the debate and not waited until the bank I mentioned the Reading event, and I hope that the holiday event in Reading. hon. Lady is satisfied on that point. On improving physical access to the island, there has My right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, East been discussion about whether a shorter runway or (Mr. Smith) proved to be a powerful advocate for his increased use of the Wideawake airstrip on Ascension constituents and asked whether we would give a would be appropriate. Some have asked for more commitment to get on with the matter. The answer is imaginative means, such as flying boats, to be considered. yes; that is essential for us and for the Saints. He also Those options have all been examined and deemed asked whether we would take account of the long-term unsuitable, either for reasons of technical feasibility or challenges facing the Saints on the island when we make for their limited potential to enable economic growth. our decision. The answer is yes, of course we will. For example, it is believed that the option of a shorter My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley runway would not deliver the benefits that connection asked about the overseas territories. She proved to be a to a recognised international hub would bring. That powerful advocate on behalf of St. Helena and served lack of connection reduces the attraction to the tourism its residents well. market. The hon. Member for Colchester—my friend from Additional factors are associated with restrictions on Colchester—asked why we cannot treat Saints as British the use of the military airfield on Ascension Island. For subjects, and I addressed that in terms of the position of example, it does not meet Civil Aviation Authority overseas territories. I regret his use of language in standards and is operated by the United States military. referring to the Government’s decision being economic There are restrictions on the number of civilian flights apartheid on the basis that Falkland islanders are white that can go via Ascension. The cost of a short runway is and Saints are not, and that that is why the Falklands not significantly lower than that of a longer one, for received investment when St. Helena did not. technical reasons that were all explored in the previous I think the hon. Gentleman used such language to consultations. reinforce his argument and that he does not believe it. But if he does, that is a mistake that many politicians Let me deal with some of the issues that have cropped make. The two facts may be correct, but that does not up in the debate. The hon. Member for Congleton mean that they are causally related. There is a big asked whether St. Helena lacks the practical aspects of difference between how the Government are dealing support while the delay is going on and suggested that with the matter and how the South African regime there is a ban on DFID representatives visiting the operated apartheid. island. I can say categorically that there is no such ban. The three-year assistance package that was negotiated Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Order. We must move with the Government of St. Helena and started in 2007 on to the next debate. 125WH 17 JUNE 2009 Ambulance Services (Crewe and 126WH Nantwich) Ambulance Services (Crewe and Nantwich) had blue lights before and the drivers were properly trained. The range of services that those retained firefighters will be able to provide will be more limited than when 4.12 pm the community first responder scheme operated before Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): NWAS became involved. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I am sure that the Minister will do his bit and tell us Mrs. Dean, and to be able to stand here today to what the North West Ambulance Service is doing and demand a better ambulance service for my constituents. what it is providing, and he will no doubt back that up I thank Mr. Speaker for granting me this debate. I with marvellous statistics about its work. Although I welcome the Minister to his new position, and I wish have not yet seen written confirmation, which is unusual him well in what I hope will be a fruitful debate and the for such a bureaucratic organisation, a retained service conclusion to the problems that ambulance services in has been promised, which will claw back most if not all Crewe, Nantwich, Cheshire and the north-west have the skills of our local community first responders. Such experienced. a guarantee would be welcome in writing—we have not In the past 15 months, I have been engaged in a battle received that—and I received a copy of a letter today with North West Ambulance Service about volunteer from Nantwich town council to the area manager of ambulance services in Nantwich. The town had two NWAS making that point and seeking clarification of highly visible and respected volunteer community first what is on the table as part of the retained co-responder responders who provided a quick response to emergency firefighter/ambulance service. health care incidents using a blue light emergency vehicle, According to 2006-07 figures, the service used to cost and a range of capabilities when they arrived on scene. North West Ambulance Service £12 per call-out for Given that no paramedics were based in the area, local volunteer first responders. The firefighters will be paid residents and the local council thought that that was an for the service that they provide, so where have we excellent service, which is exactly what it was. The ended up after 15 months? It seems that we have less dismay of all those concerned can be imagined when service, a year’s disruption, more cost to taxpayers, and early last year the service was downgraded by North disregard for hard-working volunteers. The problem is West Ambulance Service and continues to be so. that NWAS seems to have no idea of how to handle That downgrading has resulted in fewer calls—the community issues. The burden of bureaucratic meddling number has fallen from 120 in December 2007 to just among its senior management has sometimes been over 20 in February 2009. There have been fewer services, astounding, and to the detriment of its concern for my and according to the NWAS medical director, even real, living, breathing constituents whom they are there aspirin is now a dangerous drug in the hands of community to serve. first responders, who should not have access to it as part To put that into context, in 2008-09 NWAS spent of their medical kit. They are no longer allowed to use more than £620,000 on communications. It even spent blue flashing lights, which is perhaps the most bizarre just under £400 on an equality and diversity calendar decision, given the findings of the Healthcare Commission’s this year. I am sure that that is a noble cause, but that report into the neighbouring Staffordshire Ambulance money is equivalent to the cost of at least 20 first Service in 2008, which stated clearly that the first responders responder call-outs for the people of Crewe and Nantwich. need sirens and blue flashing lights to operate safely How that image-conscious spending has helped response and effectively. Does the Minister agree that as a matter times in the north-west is beyond me, but it seems to of principle and common sense, when a community have produced the poorest results in communication. first responder has the necessary training to drive with a It is not just me saying this. The Cheshire county blue light—we cannot ignore the fact that its purpose is council scrutiny committee report on NWAS’s review of to ensure a speedy response to a life-saving situation to community first responders noted that enhance the prospect of patient survival—it would be “there appears to have been no core principles underpinning the perverse not to allow them to do so? Sadly, however, review”. that is what has happened in Nantwich in the past year. It was “surprised” that The downgrading of community first responders resulted in what can only be described as local outrage. It led to “the review of CFRs was not the subject of a written report to NWAS’s Board.” my leading more than 1,000 residents on a protest march through a normally peaceful Cheshire market It also noted: town. I understand that it was the first march in that “NWAS may wish to review its approach to communications town since the English civil war, which speaks volumes and consultations not only in the context of its statutory obligations for the feeling among local residents. I also presented a on patient and public involvement, but also more generally.” 10,000-signature petition from local councillors, residents, I suspect that the scrutiny committee was being polite in first responders and so on to Downing street, and had the terms that it used. the opportunity to raise the matter in a debate on the Where does that leave us? Nantwich, the surrounding Floor of the House in January. area and, to an extent, Crewe now have in sight once Fifteen months after the matter arose, we now have again their own retained ambulance service. If that is on offer a slightly downgraded service with a different the outcome, it will be welcome. We have been through mechanism that will, unfortunately, cost more. The some long and arduous meetings over many months. It current proposal is that retained firefighters will provide should be seen not just as a single entity, but as a model the service, but they are the same people who were for similar schemes across Cheshire and the north-west, providing the community first responder service as including the village of Audlem, which is on the edge of volunteers and unpaid members of the public. The blue my constituency, Sandbach, Congleton, Chester and lights will be back for properly trained drivers, but we Knutsford. It has, however, taken 15 months of effort 127WH Ambulance Services (Crewe and 17 JUNE 2009 Ambulance Services (Crewe and 128WH Nantwich) Nantwich) [Mr. Edward Timpson] Let me raise one of the issues that I am pressing. The Minister can respond by saying what involvement he from me, Nantwich town council, local first responders could have in trying to press this issue. If he does not and members of the public to keep the issue on the boil feel that it is within his remit as a Minister to do so, I and bring about a remotely acceptable outcome. would like to know why. I am referring to the fact that In the process, the Crewe and Nantwich public have until we move to the mandatory publication of local marched against the ambulance service and voiced their rather than regional response times, areas such as Nantwich concerns, staged other demonstrations and suffered a will still face the dilemma of not knowing what the massive loss of confidence in that service’s ability properly response times are in their local area and therefore to demonstrate a will to improve and provide for residents whether the strict targets—they rightly are strict—are in our area. All that is combined with the ongoing being met by the trust. I have already given the example problem of poor response times in our rural areas, with of the failure in the Audlem area by the North West not one category A call being responded to within the Ambulance Service to meet any of the eight-minute target time for Audlem, near Nantwich, in a recent targets for category A calls. reporting period. That would be unacceptable to any I ask the Minister at least to respond to that point in area of the country, let alone Audlem. his reply and to acknowledge that it is an issue that needs to be addressed, whether by him or by the trust, As my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury because it is clearly an unacceptable state of affairs. The (Mr. O’Brien), who shares a surname with the new North West Ambulance Service has let itself down Minister, has rightly pointed out to the House, badly, and the people of Nantwich should be congratulated “community first responders are effectively filling a major gap on the strength and determination they have shown that has arisen due to the inadequacy of the North West Ambulance over many months in trying to deal with the issue. On Service”.—[Official Report, 21 January 2009; Vol. 486, c. 797.] many occasions, the wall that we have faced has been very high, and one that has not been willing to move. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike One of the reasons for being here today and bringing O’Brien): I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman the Minister to the debate is to widen the issue out and and he makes his case very well, but I am not entirely bring it to the attention not only of the Department but clear on what he is asking me as a Minister to do. He is of the public, so that they are aware of some of the saying that he has concerns about the North West issues being faced in the provision of ambulance services Ambulance Trust. He is well aware that the hon. Member not only in Nantwich but throughout the north-west. for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien) is very clear that Ministers I hope that the Minister will strongly encourage the should not interfere with local trusts—that there should ambulance service to review how it engages with be no political involvement at all and trusts should be communities and encourage it to take this opportunity allowed to get on with the business of making decisions. to bring a fresh pair of eyes from outside the organisation What we are talking about here is a local trust that has into the chief executive’s office, in order that all areas in made some decisions. The hon. Member for Crewe and the north-west may maintain a healthy confidence in Nantwich (Mr. Timpson) obviously disagrees with the their ambulance service’s ability to save lives and answer hon. Member for Eddisbury, but what I am interested in individual communities’ needs. is this: what is he suggesting that Ministers ought to do—intervene in this case? I started the debate by welcoming the Minister to his new post and by describing the last 15 months of dealings with the North-West Ambulance Service over Mr. Timpson: I am not sure that my hon. Friend said local ambulance service provision as an ongoing battle. exactly what the Minister has just said about what I hope that with his fresh eyes on the issue and his involvement the Department should have with the trust. intuition and incisiveness, we may be able to put that He may be referring to some other occasion. I simply battle to rest. I am not asking for a miracle; I am not said that my hon. Friend had pointed out that community asking for a silver bullet. I am asking for recognition first responders were filling the gap that had arisen due from the Department represented by the Minister that to the inadequacy of the North West Ambulance Service. there is an issue that the trust needs to deal with to I did not mention what his view might be on the ensure that the public’s confidence in the service is back involvement of Government in the work done by the where it should be. trust on the ground. These people who serve our community do it out of I was coming on to some of the things taking place in the goodness of their heart. They have not been paid for the trust that I think the Minister needs to be aware of. it. The proposed new system will mean that they are As part of the Department of Health’s response and paid, but I suspect that that is not their motivation. We guidance, clear boundaries need to be set as to exactly need a service that ensures that lives are saved wherever what is expected, to ensure that response times are possible, and the first responders are there to do that. I being met not only regionally, but locally. That deficiency hope that the Minister will support that principle and cannot just be left at the door of the trust; it has to advocate support for the first responders. involve the primary care trust and the Department of Health. We need to ensure that there is a joined-up 4.28 pm response so that where there are failings in the service provided by our ambulance service, that is brought to The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike the attention of the Department and it is not left O’Brien): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member believing that everything in the garden is rosy, because for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson) on securing the it clearly is not and has not been for some time in my debate. I also thank him for welcoming me to my new constituency. role. Before addressing in detail some of the concerns 129WH Ambulance Services (Crewe and 17 JUNE 2009 Ambulance Services (Crewe and 130WH Nantwich) Nantwich) that he has raised, I want to recognise the excellent blue light service until 2008. In line with the review work that our ambulance staff do, so I shall make some undertaken by the trust, that was revoked for reasons of general points before coming to the specifics of the hon. staff, patient and public safety. I am informed that that Gentleman’s contribution. is how that situation was dealt with. Day in, day out, ambulance workers save lives and care for patients, benefiting the people of Crewe and Mr. Timpson: The Minister has hit on the question at Nantwich and others throughout the country. It is the heart of many discussions over the last 15 months. thanks to their dedication and hard work that ambulance Will he confirm that the retained firefighter who was a service performance has improved. At the end of 2007-08, CFR before the blue light was taken away was driving the NHS ambulance service recorded its highest ever on a blue light under insurance provided through NWAS? emergency response rate, with 77.1 per cent. of category Will insurance for the co-respondent scheme be met by A—life-threatening—calls receiving a response at the the fire and rescue service or the ambulance service? scene of the incident within eight minutes. That best-ever category A performance was achieved Mr. O’Brien: I am sorry to say that my valuable despite increases in demand, with more than 7 million briefing does not extend to insurance cover, but I shall 999 calls being dealt with in that year—almost 1 million ask the trust and let the hon. Gentleman know. That is more than the year before. That success came despite probably the best way to deal with that question. significant challenges, including the new “call connect” It is likely that co-responders will be able to respond clock start measurement, which affects the amount of to a far wider range of incidents than CFRs. The trust time available to respond. The time that an ambulance feels that it is a good scheme and that it will give local takes to reach a patient is now measured from when the people a good service. Although the scheme will take 999 call connects, which saves an average hidden wait of some time to be fully implemented, I understand that about 90 seconds, rather than being measured from the the pilot scheme in Nantwich is due to start at some point at which the person who received the call passes it point this year, hopefully as soon as August. on to the ambulance service. That is a good record. NWAS is considering a number of ways to improve The hon. Gentleman is concerned about community its performance across the region, especially in rural first responders in Cheshire. It is obviously a matter areas. One such scheme will provide further training to that is raising serious unease among his constituents in CFRs, enabling them to be deployed to an increased Nantwich. CFRs were developed in response to the number of incidents. The volunteers will also be paid Government’s national framework for coronary heart for their time. Details of training and the scope of the disease. CFRs are trained in the use of automatic exercise are being discussed, with a view to a pilot external defibrillators, which are used to treat patients scheme being trialled in Knutsford. in cardiac arrest. In the north-west, they operate a voluntary rota in groups of eight to 15 and respond to I listened with care to the hon. Gentleman; he made emergency calls in addition to the ambulance service, an eloquent case on behalf of his constituents. However, administering life support to patients while waiting for the organisation of services, including CFRs, is not the ambulance to arrive. decided by Ministers or civil servants in the Department of Health but by local health care professionals. CFRs play an important role in supporting ambulance Organisational changes must be based on medical grounds services and in improving our response to 999 calls in and what is best for patient care. many parts of the country. They are not, however, a substitute for an emergency ambulance response. The To ensure the most effective and appropriate use of North West Ambulance Service NHS Trust is committed CFRs across the north-west, NWAS undertook a review to its CFR schemes. Indeed, in April it established three of its services. It is a local health care organisation that new CFR schemes in Northwich, Winsford and Crewe. consults and engages with local people, considers the I can tell the hon. Gentleman that a pilot co-responders arguments, talks to staff and others who are involved scheme is to be set up in Nantwich in his constituency. and reaches local decisions. It wanted to ensure that CFRs were used in the most appropriate and efficient Mr. Timpson: It is obvious that the Minister has been way to ensure the safety of patients, the public and staff. given detailed information about NWAS and its policy The review proposed the standardisation of services on CFRs. He has mentioned co-responders. Will he across the former ambulance trust areas of Greater provide more detail about what skills and training the Manchester, Cumbria, Mersey and Lancashire. It included CFRs will have? Will they be able to use those skills, for the removal of the blue light facility and a review of the instance, to drive on a blue light? level of care that CFRs could and should provide. The proposals were referred to democratically elected councillors Mr. Mike O’Brien: Co-responder schemes are agreements on Cheshire’s overview and scrutiny committee. That made between the ambulance service and, in this case, committee set up a task and finish panel to review all Cheshire fire and rescue service. Firefighters will be issues in detail. The panel reported back to the full trained to use lifesaving skills and will thus be able to committee in October 2008. respond to patients in the same way as CFRs. However, The overview and scrutiny committee made a number they will also be trained in other areas, such as casualty of recommendations, and NWAShas produced an action management, scene management, risk assessment and plan to address those recommendations. The action advanced driving under blue lights. plan was shared with the OSC and other stakeholders in I note the point that the hon. Gentleman makes January 2008. As a result, a local Cheshire steering about CFRs being the same as firefighters. I have been group is reviewing the existing Cheshire CFR schemes, told by officials that one CFR was a retained firefighter, and it will explore other opportunities to strengthen not a full-time firefighter, and that he provided a CFR ambulance services in the region. 131WH Ambulance Services (Crewe and 17 JUNE 2009 Ambulance Services (Crewe and 132WH Nantwich) Nantwich) [Mr. Mike O’Brien] could reduce the number of call-outs to which the CFR responds—I gave the figures from my constituency of Local ambulance trusts, in consultation with other 120 in 2007 to 20 in 2009. That will not only reduce the local emergency services, must decide whether they are possibility of saving lives, but result in exactly what the happy for CFRs to operate under blue lights. That Minister does not want: it will prevent that skill from decision must comply with the Road Vehicle Lighting being used when appropriate and make it more difficult Regulations 1989, which state that blue lights can be to reintroduce it later. used only by emergency vehicles used for “fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes”. Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman makes a very In Nantwich, one CFR was using blue lights until 2008. sensible point, but misses the key one: it is not a matter That was one of only a small number of instances of whether Ministers agree, but of whether the local across the country of a CFR using blue lights. It was ambulance trust, which has the delegated authority to relatively rare, and I gather it was stopped because of make these decisions, agrees. I intervened on him earlier the way in which that CFR was trained. to get an idea of what he is looking for from me, as a A demand for the wider use of blue lights must be Minister. I indicated that his party’s policy is to make treated with a great deal of caution. It is not only a the NHS much more independent of Ministers—to set matter of training, because although people can be up an NHS board and to keep it at arm’s length from trained, they also need to use blue lights regularly. They ministerial intervention—and to ensure that Ministers need their skills to be honed; they cannot be trained have nothing to do with decisions made by ambulance once and then use the skills intermittently. Ambulance trusts. We do not share that view on the extent of and fire service crew and police officers use blue lights delegation. regularly. However, they do so with some risk; as we The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O’Brien), to know from a number of incidents, using blue lights has whom the hon. Gentleman has referred, is an advocate risks for the public, so blue lights should be used with of Conservative Front-Bench policy—after all, he is caution. People who use blue lights must not only be himself a Conservative party Front-Bench spokesman. trained; they must be in a position to hone those skills However, any of his constituents who intend to support through regular use. him at the next election, which is a matter for them, must not assume that, if the Conservatives win, there Mr. Timpson: I am grateful to the Minister for being will be a Minister who wants to do something about generous in giving way. He has clearly read his brief and this situation. Indeed, the opposite will be case: the has tried to get to grips with as much of the detail as Conservative party will choose not get involved in any possible. of these matters. We have said that ambulance trusts I do not want to stray into the minutiae, but the have to decide whether to allow CFRs to use blue matter is extremely important. A CFR may not only lights— have had the training to use a blue light but, as the Minister suggested, he may have honed those skills Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Order. We must now regularly over many years. Removing that blue light move on to the next debate. 133WH 17 JUNE 2009 Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 134WH Services Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail Services I simply cannot understand why the work is being carried out at the height of the tourist season, rather that at some other time of the year. Also, I have had no 4.42 pm explanation of why there will be no train service between Scunthorpe, and Grimsby and Cleethorpes. These are Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I am sure that it the two biggest urban areas in northern Lincolnshire. I will be a great pleasure to speak in a debate chaired by understand that no repair work is going on along that you, Mrs. Dean. I welcome my hon. Friend to his new part of the line, so why can some sort of service not job as a Transport Minister—he now has a speaking continue to link those two areas? Even at this late stage, role, after some time as a silent participant in the House I hope that that can be considered. as a member of the Whips Office. As a Member of It is not just the tourism industry that will be affected. Parliament representing an east-coast constituency, I People also need to get to work, and moreover, the line hope he will appreciate the challenges that that geography will be closed at the start of the football season. Given presents. I realise that his constituency is far closer to our geography, many away supporters tend to get the the capital than Cleethorpes, but still, anyone on the train to Cleethorpes—they alight by the beach, have coast experiences greater transport difficulties. their fish and chips and then walk along Grimsby road The issues that I wish to raise relate to passenger rail to Blundell Park to watch Grimsby Town. Last season, services. I shall cover short and long-term problems and the club performed an act worthy of Lazarus to remain concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby in the football league, but it seems to add insult to (Mr. Mitchell) had hoped to take part in this debate, but injury that, when the new season starts, away supporters he is in the Chamber debating another issue of concern will be unable to get to Cleethorpes by train. to our constituents—the levying of business rates in The usual rail replacement bus service will run between ports. Doncaster and Cleethorpes. Mention rail replacement The rail line between Doncaster, and Grimsby and bus services to anybody living in northern Lincolnshire Cleethorpes is due to close on 22 June and will not and their reaction will probably be one of hysterical reopen until 7 September, which means that the First laughter. They are not regarded as particularly reliable, TransPennine Express service between Manchester airport, and it takes an age to get to Grimsby and Cleethorpes. Sheffield, Doncaster and Cleethorpes will start and People say that they simply will not use it, but will use terminate at Doncaster and will not serve any stations other modes of transport instead. east of Doncaster, which obviously includes Grimsby I had hoped that it would be possible to retain a link and Cleethorpes. That will cut off huge swathes of with the east coast main line, perhaps using the Brigg northern Lincolnshire, including its two main urban and Gainsborough line, on to which all the freight areas—Scunthorpe, and, on the coast, Grimsby and traffic is being routed. Freight is vital in my area. We Cleethorpes. I am told that the closure is necessary to have one of the biggest rail freight depots in Britain. All carry out engineering work at Medge Hall in Thorne the coal and other heavy goods that are coming into the Moor near Doncaster. I appreciate that the line is built docks at Immingham tend to go out by rail, as do some on peat and that speed restrictions have been in place of the products from the refineries. I appreciate that it is for some time on that section of the line. I appreciate, vital to keep that freight going, but originally I was told therefore, that some remedial work is required. that some sort of passenger service may be retained on Why close, however, one of our most popular lines to the line so that people could link in to the east coast the coast throughout the school summer holidays? main line if they have to go to London. However, I have Cleethorpes is by far the easiest coastal resort to reach now been told that there will not be any replacement from places such as Sheffield and Doncaster. In fact, passenger service on that line. Cleethorpes has been the traditional seaside playground What is irksome about this long withdrawal of train for south Yorkshire for many generations—ever since services is that, just weeks after the line is back in action the railway reached it in 1863. In preparing for this in September, it will be closed down again in November debate, I went back over some of the newspaper records, in order to carry out repair works on the Doughty road which made for interesting reading. On 3 August 1863, railway bridge in Grimsby. When we have such a long 10,000 people arrived in the resort by train. One year shutdown, it makes no sense to leave the repair work on later, the number had risen to 79,000 ordinary passengers that particular section of the line. Network Rail said and 72,000 excursion passengers. The number continued that it is because the design and the materials are not yet to grow in subsequent years, and to this day Cleethorpes ready. I am sorry, but this closure has been known remains very much part of summer day trips and holidays about for some time. It is very poor planning not to get for many people in Yorkshire. all the work done at once. Moreover, the new trains that In the current recession, it is important that we do have been in use on the trans-Pennine route are about to not create extra barriers to people trying to reach the be withdrawn and replaced with 10-year-old rolling resort. The small businesses that typify the tourism stock, which does not bode well for the future. industry are dependent on a good summer season and My hon. Friend the Minister has the luxury of a August bank holiday to remain viable. In Cleethorpes, direct train service to London. In Grimsby and Cleethorpes, we have fish and chip shops, amusement arcades, donkey we have not had that luxury for some 20 years. Last rides, candy floss and so on—it is very much a traditional Wednesday at Prime Minister’s questions, I told the seaside resort. Network Rail hopes that people will House that Able UK had announced a £100 million accept this “short-term inconvenience”. I, and resort investment in my constituency, thus creating 5,000 jobs, businesses, do not think that 11 to 12 weeks is a short-term which is welcome news in the current economic climate. inconvenience. They feel that this could be “make or The development site is the largest in northern England, break” for their businesses this year. alongside a deep-water port. I hope that the Prime 135WH Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 17 JUNE 2009 Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 136WH Services Services [Shona McIsaac] auntie and my mother-in-law used to sit together in deepest Kirkcaldy watching the Parliament channel to Minister will meet me and other MPs from the area to see whether they could spot us. Were they both with us discuss how we can remove some of the remaining now, they would, no doubt, feel that they had had a barriers to realising the full potential of our constituencies. double hit today. One of the remaining barriers is this lack of a direct train service to London. I have been due to meet Ministers Shona McIsaac: That is so true, but what my hon. to discuss this issue for some months but, like the train Friend has not said is that they would be sitting in the services, those meetings keep getting cancelled. Prime Minister’s constituency. As for the direct line, National Express has come on board after intense lobbying by businesses, MPs and Chris Mole: Indeed. I congratulate my hon. Friend others. It hopes that by September, it will have the on securing this debate on what is clearly an important provisional timings for one early morning train to the issue for her constituents and their local economy. The capital and one evening peak return. Given that the Government recognise that seaside towns have a distinctive Humber ports are already Britain’s most profitable port role to play in regional economies. For its part, the complex, given that this new development on the South Department for Transport is investing £10 billion in the Humber Bank will make the region even more strategically railways over the next five years to increase capacity important, and given that the area is the base for a lot of and provide better train services. Such improvements the country’s leading manufacturing industries, it hardly are being delivered through new and amended franchise seems sufficient to provide one return service a day to agreements and by infrastructure upgrades being carried the capital. out by Network Rail. Turning now to the frequency of the service, the Some of the planned improvements will benefit rail nearest station to the port of Immingham is Habrough, travellers to and from Grimsby and Cleethorpes because yet that station has a very poor service, with few stopping they will see improved reliability and some new services. trains. If we are to develop the port area, it makes more Passengers are already benefiting from the major sense to increase the frequency of the trains serving the refurbishment of Cleethorpes station undertaken last port of Immingham by having more stopping at Habrough year, which I understand was unveiled by my hon. station. I am always told that people should use Barnetby Friend last year. Such an improvement is a good example station. However, it is not the most successful station of partners working together to shape the future of this because it involves using bridges; Habrough does not. seaside town. Therefore, we must consider having more trains stopping at Habrough if we are to serve the port. Rail users and businesses are understandably frustrated The other service we must consider is the one to by line closures, particularly over weekends and at Humberside airport. At the moment, the line goes just holiday periods, but there is no easy time to carry out past the airport—there is no station at the actual airport. major engineering works. Disruption is an unfortunate If we are to have an integrated transport network but sometimes unavoidable consequence of maintenance serving this growing industrial area, we need to consider work, which is essential for the continuing drive to having a rail service into the airport. At the moment, deliver a safer, faster and more reliable rail network. people can get a train to Manchester airport but not Following decades of under-investment and to cope Humberside airport. with increasing passenger and freight traffic growth, the Government are currently taking steps to increase the I hope that my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] I capacity and reliability of our railway. have just promoted the Minister; I am obviously delighted that he has been promoted out of the Whips Office and In the longer term, passenger and freight operators, I am promoting him even further. If he cannot address business and the tourist industry will feel the benefit. fully this afternoon all the issues, I hope that he will However, we cannot get improvements without occasional meet me and my colleagues at a later date to discuss blockades of some of the lines. The timing of engineering them in more detail. I do not know whether such a works is an operational matter for Network Rail within meeting is in his remit, but there are other issues relating a regime that is overseen by the independent Office of to the road network in the area. The A180 needs resurfacing. Rail Regulation. Under that regime, the majority of We need to sort out the dualling of the A160 and to engineering possessions are specifically planned—often address the issue of Humber bridge tolls. The tolls must up to 18 months in advance. be substantially reduced, as has been demonstrated by Over the past two years, a cross-industry review, led an in-depth study. That would lead to further economic by the Office of Rail Regulation, has been examining growth in not just our area but the whole country. how best to address the growing mismatch between the Once again, Mrs. Dean, I appreciate having had the increasing demand for travel and the service availability chance to raise these very important issues for my of the rail network. That has produced a new cross-industry constituents. consensus and a determination to reduce major disruption arising from engineering works, and, critically, to do so without compromising the safety of passengers and 4.56 pm staff. Network Rail is leading the development of a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport strategy to deliver that, so that within five years, rail (Chris Mole): It is a pleasure to serve under your users should enjoy a truly seven-day railway service. chairmanship, Mrs. Dean, on my first outing as a My noble Friend the Secretary of State for Transport Minister in an Adjournment debate. It is also a pleasure has already made it clear to Network Rail’s chief executive to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes that the current system for planning engineering works (Shona McIsaac). In the past, she has told me that her does not adequately represent the needs of passengers. 137WH Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 17 JUNE 2009 Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 138WH Services Services It is also vital that passengers are properly informed of Shona McIsaac: My hon. Friend has stated that the service changes well in advance, so that they can adjust works are taking place between Doncaster and Scunthorpe. their travel plans. Most of the works are near Thorne, which is closer to We recognise that the ORR has set Network Rail a Doncaster. He has not mentioned the remaining section target of reducing the disruption it causes to passengers of line from Scunthorpe to Grimsby and Cleethorpes. I through its engineering work by 37 per cent. over the understand that no works are happening on that section next five years. That is a good start, but we would like to of line, so why can a service not run on that part of the see more done in the short term. line, so people can at least get from Grimsby to Scunthorpe?

5pm Chris Mole: I was coming to that point, but I will deal Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. with it now. TransPennine Express considered a shuttle service, but unfortunately it is not practical, as the 5.10 pm rolling stock would be trapped and unable to return to its Manchester depot for the necessary regular central On resuming— servicing and safety checks. Chris Mole: I was talking about the Department’s On the timing of the blockade, the work has to be efforts to ensure that engineering works reflect passenger done at this time of year, because aside from being an needs. My noble Friend the Secretary of State recently important passenger route to and from Cleethorpes and convened a meeting of senior figures from across the Grimsby, the line between Immingham and Doncaster rail industry, including Network Rail, the Office of Rail via Scunthorpe is a vital—to use my hon. Friend’s Regulation, train operators and Passenger Focus, to word—freight traffic artery, particularly for coal, iron discuss possible ways to improve the situation. In particular, ore and steel. Network Rail’s decision to select the we encouraged the industry to give Passenger Focus, the period between late June and early September for the independent national passenger watchdog, a greater closure of the line was dictated primarily by the lack of role in the process of planning engineering works. We capacity on alternative routes for the freight traffic. were broadly encouraged by the response that we received During autumn, winter and spring, there are high from the industry at the meeting. Our priority now is to levels of coal traffic to power stations. For that reason, ensure that all parties in the industry maintain their it was necessary to select a period during the summer, focus on improving network availability for passengers. when loadings to power stations were less and reduced I am grateful to my hon. Friend for this opportunity traffic levels could be accommodated on the alternative to explain the engineering works on the Cleethorpes route. The summer also offers advantages for construction line and what the train operators will be doing to look works and replacement passenger road services because after passengers and business. Network Rail is to carry of longer daylight hours and generally better weather out a multi-million pound project this summer to improve conditions. Although leisure travel to Cleethorpes over the condition of the line between Doncaster and Scunthorpe the summer months increases, demand from schools and, most importantly, to reinstate the 55 mph line and colleges and for work purposes decreases. speed. The line requires major engineering works to address ground settlement in the Medge Hall area in In timing the closure, Network Rail has had to balance particular, as my hon. Friend has mentioned, where the the requirement to transport passengers against the track and its substructure are poorly supported by the requirement to maintain sufficient deliveries of coal to peat and soft clay beneath. Speed restrictions are as low power stations and support the workings of Immingham, as 10 mph in some places. which I am sure that my hon. Friend will recognise is The line will be closed between Doncaster and vital to the local economy. The engineering work will Scunthorpe for 11 weeks to allow works worth more solve a long-standing problem and allow trains to run than £16 million to be completed. I am sure that my more quickly, improving long-term punctuality, reliability hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that in order to and the overall attractiveness of the service. TransPennine minimise disruption, Network Rail will complete several plans to work alongside local businesses and organisations other jobs at the same time, making its total investment to encourage more passengers to use the trains after the in the line about £20 million. I understand entirely why line is restored. In the meantime, promotional rail tickets, my hon. Friend asked about Doughty road bridge. It including discounted entry to Pleasure Island at Cleethorpes, would be ideal if the Doughty road works were done at will still be available during the works. the same time as the blockade, and if that is not possible On the question of alternative routes, there is little I will write to her to clarify why. opportunity to accommodate additional passenger trains First TransPennine Express train services will be on the alternative route via Brigg, as most of the spare replaced by direct road services between Cleethorpes, capacity on that route will be taken by freight trains. Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Doncaster from Monday That option was explored fully by TransPennine, but it 22 June until Sunday 6 September. TransPennine trains was not possible to hire additional drivers from freight will continue to run between Doncaster, Sheffield and operating companies who had knowledge of the alternative Manchester airport. route. Also, running via Brigg would take the trains to As I will mention later, there are some parallels with Sheffield but omit a call at Doncaster, which would an experience that I had as a constituency MP when the affect passengers making journeys on that busy section Ipswich tunnel closed for several months a couple of of the network. years ago. I encourage my hon. Friend to visit the works while they are going on, as that might provide an Shona McIsaac: On the drivers, my understanding is incentive for Network Rail to ensure that they are that TransPennine would not pay the rate, not that completed in a timely manner. drivers were not available. 139WH Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 17 JUNE 2009 Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail 140WH Services Services Chris Mole: I will have to make further inquiries and Lincoln direct services to London for the first time in come back to my hon. Friend on that point in writing. many years. National Express East Coast and Network On replacement coach services and how customers Rail are examining the case for extending some services will be handled, the detailed timings and calling points to provide a direct link between Cleethorpes, Grimsby for the alternative coach services and connection times and London via Lincoln. That would be a commercial at Doncaster are available at stations, via online journey initiative by National Express. planners and from National Rail enquiries. Informative The provisional timetable, which is not yet finalised, posters looking something like this one are also being will contain a morning service to London and an evening displayed at stations, and opportunities have been taken service returning from London. The timing of those to circulate information to passengers in advance of the services will be particularly attractive to business travellers. start of the work. That has included working with The December 2010 east coast main line timetable will North East Lincolnshire council and providing information deliver other benefits for rail travellers from Grimsby through tourist offices. Staff will be on hand at stations and Cleethorpes. A standard repeating pattern of services to assist passengers using the road service, and signage will be adopted with trains running at the same times in will be placed at stations to indicate pick-up points. each hour throughout the day. That will introduce a I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to hear regular hourly connection at Doncaster for Grimsby that all coaches will have toilets on board. From my and Cleethorpes with a standard connection time of own experience a couple of years ago, I know that the 15 minutes. Present journey times will be maintained information process is critical. If everyone is aware of and passengers will be able to plan their journeys more what is happening, it helps the alternative arrangements easily in the knowledge that regular connections are operate much more smoothly and perhaps without some available. of the anticipated concerns. My hon. Friend raised a few issues about the road My hon. Friend asked about the new trains that her network at the end of her speech. If she was referring constituency currently enjoys. The TransPennine franchise to trunk roads, they fall within my responsibilities, and serving Cleethorpes has one of the newest fleets in the I would be delighted to hear from her about those issues country, consisting of 51 brand-new units and seven in due course. five-year-old refurbished trains. That modern rolling In conclusion, I look forward to the completion of stock is committed until the end of the franchise in the engineering work that will allow trains to run more 2012. quickly and improve the long-term punctuality, reliability My hon. Friend discussed through route services to and overall attractiveness of the service to Cleethorpes. London. The east coast main line passenger timetable I commend my hon. Friend’s work in promoting the will be improved in December 2010, with more trains prosperity and future of Cleethorpes and the surrounding and reduced journey times, delivering on a commitment area. made by National Express East Coast as part of its Question put and agreed to. franchise agreement with the Department for Transport. The new timetable will include one direct service every 5.21 pm two hours between King’s Cross and Lincoln, giving Sitting adjourned. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements17 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

United Kingdom. Much of the discussion was taken up by two Written Ministerial main items, an informal (and off the agenda) discourse on the review of the EU regulatory framework from electronic communications networks and services and a formal round-table Statements on European network and information security policy. On the review, after an introduction by the presidency (in which they regretted they had been able to preside over a final Wednesday 17 June 2009 agreement) Commissioner Reding suggested that while she understood the concerns of member states over the introduction of amendment 138 (the clause that would make any internet disconnection subject to judicial review) she was more worried BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS about a delay in the adoption of the framework that would occur if the Council decided on a conciliation process. In response the vast majority of member states said that they could not accept the UK Inward Investment EP amendment; some noting that it potentially interfered with national competencies. The UK noted that the amendment was unacceptable both in legal and policy terms, noting how it could The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, constrain future decisions of the Government. In terms of a Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): My noble Friend future conciliation process the vast majority of member states the Minister for Trade, Investment and Business, Lord (including the UK) indicated their wish to see discussion limited Davies, has made the following statement with my right to amendment 138 with other (agreed) issues not being re-opened. hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Most member states were also happy to leave the question as to whether Council should reject the whole package or just the Commonwealth Affairs. better regulation directive, which contains amendment 138, to the I am pleased to inform the House that in these difficult times presidency. for the global economy, the UK is maintaining its status as a The presidency concluded that while a majority of member world class business destination. states wanted the framework adopted quickly, there was a strong UK Trade and Investment has announced today, in its launch majority who rejected amendment 138 and so the next step would of the UK Inward Investment results 2008-09, that there were be conciliation. 1,744 direct investments in the UK by foreign owned companies On the formal discussion on European network and information between 1 April 2008 and 31 March 2009, as reported by UK security policy Commissioner Reding introduced the Commission’s Trade and Investment and its partner agencies in Scotland, Wales, communication by noting that a breakdown in the critical telecoms Northern Ireland and the English Regional Development Agencies. infrastructure in the next five years was more likely now as a This is an increase of 11 per cent. on the year before and confirms result of security flaws. She asked member states to take the that international business has continued to select the UK as the threat seriously and to reflect on the role that the European preferred investment location in Europe, second only globally to network and information security agency (ENISA) may need to the United States of America. Seventy eight thousand five hundred take. She noted the Commission intention to publish proposals and forty new and safeguarded jobs have been delivered to the concerning the reform of the ENISA mandate by April 2010. UK through this foreign direct investment. Following this, during a wide-ranging exchange of views, the At a time of global economic downturn, inward investment is majority of member states endorsed the need for a pan EU (or a long term decision for any company seeking to grow internationally. even global) approach to information security and for enhanced In the current climate, more investors are seeking to locate in the co-operation between member states. All who spoke, with the UK than anywhere else in Europe, helping to underpin the long exception of the UK and Hungary, also called for ENISA’s term term economic prospects of the UK’s business environment. The and remit to be automatically extended. The UK, while also number of new projects has increased by 26 per cent. from 653 in welcoming the Commission’s approach noted that a future role 2007-08 to 827 in 2008-09 and there were 460 expansions by for ENISA should be discussed within the context of an overall existing investors, up by 5 per cent. from 436 the previous year. In policy discussion on information and security and critical infrastructure line with reduced global market liquidity, the number of acquisitions, protection. joint ventures and mergers taking place is down 6 per cent. from The Council then moved on to three items under Any Other 484 in 2007-08 to 457 in 2008-09. Business, the first of which was on “Internet of Things—an Companies are seeking to invest internationally earlier in their action plan for Europe—Information from the Commission”, lifecycles than at any time previously to fund their growth. The where the Commission noted that it would shortly be issuing a UK has positioned itself as a springboard for global growth for communication on the matter; a report from the presidency on companies seeking to grow both in the UK and internationally the ministerial conference entitled “Safer Internet for Children” from a UK base. UK Trade and Investment is the Government (Prague, 20 April 2009) where the Commissioner thanked the organisation leading support for such companies in the international presidency for an important conference and “Internet Governance: business environment. The next steps”, where Commissioner Reding noted the imminent I am arranging for a copy of the UK Inward Investment report publication of a communication addressing, among other issues, 2008-09 to be placed in the Library of the House. the future of ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers). Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council TREASURY

The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat The Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes McFadden): My noble Friend the Minister For Regulations Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Carter) has made the following statement. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kitty Ussher): Further to the written statement concerning the positions that HMG intended to take at the Telecommunications Council, held Today I am publishing a consultation document on on 11 June 2009, I am pleased to be able to report back on the secondary legislation made under part 6 of the Banking main conclusions and topics of discussion. Act 2009, regarding arrangements underpinning the The Telecommunications Council took place on 11 June 2009 commercial issuance of Scottish and Northern Ireland under the chair of the Czech presidency. Andy Lebrecht, the banknotes. Copies of the document entitled, “The Banking deputy permanent representative in Brussels, represented the Act 2009 (Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes) 17WS Written Ministerial Statements17 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

Regulations 2009: a consultation” have been deposited Continue improvement of system and processes. in the Libraries of the House and the Vote Office and Design, build and roll out the TB work management module of will be available on the HM Treasury website. the Business Reform Programme. This will give clear visibility of TB testing demand and activity, and support the delivery of different policy requirements in this key area. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Quality of Service Delivery Coal and Carbon Capture Storage Enhanced engagement with end user customers. Test the impact of changes to our service delivery model by engaging with specific customer groups. Focus on centralised The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change delivery of services relating to International Trade, aim to (Edward Miliband): I am today publishing a consultation achieve a customer satisfaction standard of 90 per cent.. We on coal and carbon capture and storage entitled “A will establish focus groups for strategically important customer Framework for the Development of Clean Coal”. segments. Specifically in 2009-10 we will focus on: In April, the Budget announced financing for up to The animal by product industry. four CCS demonstration projects in the UK and, the Cattle farmers. following day, I outlined proposals for a new regulatory regime for new coal-fired power stations. Following We will consult with customer panels on improving the statutory strategic environmental assessment, this customer service, policy development and provision of consultation document sets out the Government’s proposals advice and guidance. in more detail. Value for money The aims of our proposals are to drive the decarbonisation of our energy supply, to safeguard our Increasing efficiency energy security and to get the best deal for consumers Achieve a further 3.5 per cent. (£4 million) efficiency saving by and businesses. The conditions on new coal proposed in the end of the 2009-10 financial year, and identify options to this document are the most environmentally ambitious enable a further 5 per cent. of savings to be made in the of any country in the world, requiring the demonstration following financial year. of CCS on a substantial proportion of any new power Charge end users fairly and efficiently station and the 100 per cent. retrofit of CCS when it is Working with policy customers, identify areas in which end proven. user customers should be bearing more of the costs associated The document also sets out for consultation the with regulation. Produce pricing proposals and develop a charging mechanism to support the introduction of an increased process for funding and taking forward the demonstration volume and scale of charges to support delivery of policy projects that will enable us to maintain coal as part of outcomes. our energy mix, supporting diversity and therefore security of supply. (i) I have set the Veterinary Laboratories Agency By acting early, jobs will also be created as Britain (VLA) the following performance targets for 2009-10. develops the expertise in what could be a major new Quality of Service Delivery industry, with CCS projects offering the potential to form the hubs for clusters of low carbon industries. Deliver 90 per cent. contracted research milestones. By driving the development of CCS in this country, Deliver 85 per cent. of research final reports on time. we are also, as a country, playing an essential role in Deliver 85 per cent. of contracted surveillance deliverables to tackling climate change. Coal is already widely used in time. developed and developing countries and its use is expected Maintain appropriate third party quality accreditations. to grow further: 70 to 80 per cent. of the predicted Achieve a score of 85 per cent. on a three-year rolling average growth in emissions in the coming decades will come in the VLA customer satisfaction survey. from developing countries unless we find a route to low carbon growth Value for Public Money Copies of the consultation have been placed in the Achieve full cost recovery. Library and it is available from: www.decc.gov.uk Capacity and Capability Conduct one table top notifiable disease simulation exercise to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS test current laboratory response capability, identify gaps and implement action plan. Animal Health and Veterinary Performance Targets Safety To improve the VLA’s safety record using 2007-08 as a comparator. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and I have set the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I have set Animal Health the following performance targets for 2009-10. (AH) the following performance targets for 2009-10. Quality of Service Delivery Building Capability Target 1—To authorise veterinary medicines according to legislative Demonstrate readiness for major outbreak of exotic requirements and published standards, and monitor reports of disease. suspected adverse reactions to identify emerging trends and Working with our policy customers and operational partners, take proportionate action. design and deliver exotic animal disease exercises across Great Target 2—To ensure that UK policy objectives are reflected in Britain, testing response to cross-border incidents and planning EC legislation and guidance and that UK legislation and for multiple outbreak centres. To be delivered in conjunction guidance enables veterinary medicines to be used responsibly, with operational partners. effectively and safely. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements17 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

Target 3—To ensure the regulatory system is effective and HOME DEPARTMENT contributes to protecting public health by taking risk-based action on the findings from surveillance of residues in food- Terrorism Act 2000 (Carlile Report) producing animals. The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Alan Johnson): I am pleased to say that Lord Carlile of Capacity and Capability and Value for money Berriew QC has completed his report on the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000 and part 1 of the Terrorism Target 4—To ensure that the appropriate infrastructure is in Act 2006 in 2008, which will be laid before the House place to achieve targets 1, 2 and 3 and provides value for today. money and VMD achieves full cost recovery. I am grateful to Lord Carlile for his detailed report and have considered his recommendations fully. Following There are stringent performance indicators for each consultation within my Department and with other of these targets. relevant Departments and agencies, I am also pleased to lay before the House today my response to Lord Carlile’s Further details are given in the respective “Agencies’ recommendations. Business Plans for 2009-10”, copies of which will be Copies of both Lord Carlile’s report and the response placed in the Libraries of both Houses. will be available in the Vote Office.

279W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 280W Written Answers to SCOTLAND Postal Services Questions 6. Sir Robert Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wednesday 17 June 2009 Scotland what recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the future of mail and post office services in Scotland. [279149]

Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend and I have WALES regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues. EU Grants and Loans Government are committed to a stable and sustainable post office network. Since 1999, Government have invested Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for £3.7 billion in the Post Office including an annual Wales for what reasons the amount of EU funding is subsidy of £150 million to 2011 to support 7,500 branches shown as deducted from the grant to the National that may not survive without public support. Assembly for Wales in the Wales Office Annual Reports up to and including the 2007 report. [280206] Devolution Mr. Hain: Spending permission for the National Assembly for Wales to draw down its allocation from 7. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the EU Structural Funds in the 2000-06 round was Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the included in its Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) Advocate-General on devolution issues. [279150] on top of its Barnett determined budget. It is shown as a deduction in the table in order to Mr. Jim Murphy: I have regular discussions with the reconcile the DEL with the amount of grant drawn Advocate-General on a variety of matters. down from HMT, described as Total Assembly Grant in the Annual Report. 9. Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent assessment he has made of the Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for work of the Commission on Scottish Devolution on Wales pursuant to the answer of 1 June 2009, Official the relative powers of members of the UK and Scottish Report, columns 70-1W, on EU grants and loans, how Parliaments. [279152] much of the above-Barnett formula additions were actually received by the Welsh Assembly in each year. Mr. Jim Murphy: The Commission on Scottish [280277] Devolution published their final report on 15 June. I refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement Mr. Hain: The UK Government granted spending I made on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 5WS. permission to the National Assembly for Wales on top of its Barnett determined budget to allow it to draw down its full allocation of EU Structural Funds in the House Repossessions 2000-06 round. The actual detail and timing of those draw downs 8. Mr. Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for were a matter for the National Assembly itself. Scotland what discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on fiscal measures to assist mortgage Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for holders in Scotland who are facing repossession. Wales how much (a) has been paid by and (b) is [279151] planned to be paid in above-Barnett Formula additions to the block grant for Wales from the EU share funding Ann McKechin: The Secretary of State has regular for Objective One and Convergence Programmes for discussions with the Chancellor, including at meetings 2007-13. [280214] of the National Economic Council, on action needed to deliver real help now to those suffering in the recent Mr. Hain: Funding rules have been changed to permit economic conditions. the Welsh Assembly Government to draw down its full allocation of EU Convergence funding in the 2007-13 North Sea Oil and Gas round without need for a detrimental impact on its Barnett determined budget. 10. Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with Wales whether the National Assembly for Wales and representatives of the North sea oil and gas industry on Welsh Assembly Government’s receipts from the EU in prospects for the industry in 2009-10. [279153] respect of Objective One and Convergence Programme funding in Wales are in addition to the overall block Mr. Jim Murphy: I and my Department maintain grant that they would otherwise have received [280216] regular contact with representatives of the North Sea oil and gas industry and discuss a wide range of issues Mr. Hain: Yes. affecting the sector. 281W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 282W

Scottish Economy Fuel Duty

11. John Barrett: To ask the Secretary of State for 14. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Scotland what his most recent assessment is of the state for Scotland what recent representations he has received of the Scottish economy. [279154] on the effects of fuel duty rates on people in remote areas in Scotland; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Jim Murphy: The Scottish economy has not been [279157] immune from the global economic difficulties, and is now officially in recession. The UK Government have Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office has received no delivered a £500 million fiscal boost from Budget 2009 such recent representations. Decisions on fuel duty rates measures, a £2 billion boost as part of the 2008 pre-Budget are a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who report, all in addition to the substantial interventions to takes into account a range of factors in setting them. support the Scottish banks. These Government actions have helped to keep Scottish unemployment levels among the lowest in Europe. Departmental Billing Future Jobs Fund Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland 12. Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for how many and what proportion of invoices his Scotland what recent assessment he has made of the Department has paid within 10 days of receipt in each effectiveness of the future jobs fund in Scotland; and if of the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. he will make a statement. [279155] [278831]

Mr. Jim Murphy: The £1 billion Future Jobs Fund Ann McKechin: Until October 2008 the Scotland will provide 150,000 jobs across Great Britain, for 18 to Office and the Office of the Advocate-General were 24 year-olds unemployed for 12 months and for required to monitor and publish payment performance unemployment hotspots. against a 30 day payment target. The first full month of I will hold a Jobs Summit on 18 of June with Scottish formal recording against the 10 day target was November local authorities, SCVO, social enterprises, and charities 2008 and therefore information about payment performance to build on existing plans to bid, and promote uptake of within 10 days is not available prior to this date. Between the Fund in Scotland. 1 November 2008 and 31 March 2009 the offices have Economy: Argyll and Bute paid 97.2 per cent. of invoices within 10 days.

13. Mr. Alan Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Scotland what recent assessment he has made of the economic situation in Argyll and Bute. [279156] Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Ann McKechin: The Argyll and Bute economy has how much his Department has spent on (a) staffing not been immune from the global economic difficulties, costs, (b) IT equipment, (c) telecommunications, (d) which has seen the Scottish economy officially in recession. stationery and office supplies, (e) utilities and (f) travel However, at 3.1 per cent. the claimant count rate for in each year since 1999. [276987] Argyll and Bute is below that of the Scottish average. UK Government have delivered a £500 million fiscal Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office was established boost from Budget 2009 measures, a £2 billion boost as on 1 July 1999. The Scotland Office provides support part of the 2008 pre-Budget report, all in addition to services to the Office of the Advocate-General for Scotland the substantial interventions to support the Scottish (OAG) and prior to 2003-04, separate records were not banks. maintained for the two offices. The spend was as follows:

Stationery and Staffing costs IT equipment Telecommunications office supplies Utilities1 Travel

1999-20002,3 2,026,094 20,732 20,164 22,207 55,946 212,402 2000-013 3,391,412 62,033 103,492 25,270 104,687 360,085 2001-023 3,898,927 44,761 99,709 24,478 118,613 332,560 2002-033 4,368,496 94,330 90,379 25,294 123,244 322,377 2003-04 2,615,587 6,385 93,769 16,858 123,487 196,256 2004-05 2,201,361 — 80,484 11,314 133,103 163,541 2005-06 1,904,782 5,843 86,560 16,415 138,399 168,156 2006-07 1,935,725 — 76,286 17,955 156,596 182,609 2007-08 2,287,135 — 82,793 18,943 119,365 184,240 1 The information relates to buildings where Scotland Office are major occupiers. Costs relating to buildings shared with the Scottish Executive are not separately identifiable. 2 Part year. 3 Scotland Office and OAG. 283W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 284W

TRANSPORT Aviation Authority (CAA). As such the Department for Transport does not itself assess the reliability of aircraft A13 products and parts. As part of the type certification process for the Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department Airbus A330, the aircraft design and its systems were for Transport what plans London Gateway Port has to required to meet the established safety standards, which fund improvements to the A13/M25 junction. [280506] addressed the issue of reliability. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) assumed Paul Clark: Improvements to Junction 30 of the M25 responsibility for the regulation of aircraft design issues with the A13 are required as conditions of planning in 2003. Continued compliance with these standards is consent for London Gateway.Funding of the improvements assured through continuing airworthiness monitoring is a matter for London Gateway Port Ltd. in liaison by the manufacturer (Airbus), overseen by the regulator with the Highways Agency. (EASA). Airports: East of England The UK CAA will continue to work with EASA and UK airlines on any matters related to this accident, as further information from the investigation emerges. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much funding his Department allocated Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for the construction of airports in the East of England for Transport (1) what discussions he has had with the in each year since 1997; and if he will make a statement. Civil Aviation Authority on the safety of A330 aircraft; [280096] [279589] Paul Clark: The Government have not allocated any (2) what steps his Department is taking to assess the funding to the construction of airports over the period safety of A330 aircraft. [279590] in question. Investment in new airport infrastructure and facilities is a commercial matter for airport operators. Paul Clark: Civil aviation safety in the UK is regulated However, the East of England Development Agency by independent aviation safety regulators: the European has contributed funds towards studies informing decisions Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), which is responsible about potential investments surrounding Southend and for the regulation of aircraft design, and the UK Civil Norwich airports. Aviation Authority (CAA). As such the Department for Transport is not in itself making an assessment of the Aviation safety of the A330 aircraft. The Secretary of State has regular discussions with Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department the Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority. The last for Transport whether his Department has issued guidance meeting was on 9 June 2009 and aviation safety was to airlines on use of pitot tubes on medium and long discussed. haul jets. [279584] At present, the Civil Aviation Authority remains confident that the appropriate effort and resources are Paul Clark: Civil aviation safety in the UK is regulated being deployed to ensure the continued safe operation by independent aviation safety regulators: the European of the Airbus A330 type. If this situation changed, as a Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and the UK Civil result of evidence from the accident investigation, the Aviation Authority (CAA). As such the Department for CAA has the power to take the appropriate safety Transport does not itself issue guidance. action in respect of UK-registered aircraft or aircraft EASA has been responsible for the regulation of operated by UK operators. aircraft design issues since 2003, as set out in Regulation (EC) 216/2008. On 9 June 2009, EASA issued a Safety Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Information Bulletin (SIB) that refers to the pitot system for Transport what research his Department has undertaken of the aircraft involved in the Air France accident on into the risks posed by the effect known as coffin corner 1 June 2009. The bulletin reminds operators of the need in relation to aircraft. [279591] to ensure that flight crew are fully familiar with procedures associated with unreliable airspeed indications. The UK Paul Clark: Civil aviation safety in the UK is regulated CAA supports this SIB and will continue to work with by independent aviation safety regulators: the European EASA and UK airlines on this matter as further information Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and the UK Civil from the investigation emerges. Aviation Authority (CAA). As such, the Department for Transport has not conducted any research into the Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department ‘coffin corner’ effect. for Transport (1) what assessment his Department has made of the reliability of computerised measurement of airspeeds on A330 aircraft; [279587] Bus Services: Concessions (2) what assessment his Department has made of the reliability of the air data inertial reference unit Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, computer system used on A330 aircraft. [279588] Department for Transport what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on changes in levels Paul Clark: Civil aviation safety in the UK is regulated of usage of bus services by those on low incomes by independent aviation safety regulators: the European arising from the (i) national and (ii) local concessionary Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and the UK Civil bus fare schemes. [279708] 285W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 286W

Mr. Khan [holding answer 16 June 2009]: The the project. However, the forecast profile was not published Department for Transport has commissioned research in the redacted form of the Sponsors Agreement laid in from the Institute of Transport Studies (ITS) to review the Library of the House last December. This was due the impact of the national and local concessionary to the commercial sensitivities around the year on year travel schemes on overall usage of bus services. This funding detail of the project as a whole, with the work is expected to provide some specific information majority of contracts still to be let and with agreements on use by those on low incomes, although this is not the to be reached with lenders. primary focus. It is for the Mayor to determine his approach to The National Travel Survey (NTS) provides data on raising a business rate supplement for Crossrail, within bus use by income group, although data are not yet the framework to be set out by legislation, and to available for the past two years. determine the gross revenue to be raised in each year of The Department for Transport intends to use the ITS its operation. Under schedule 1 of the Business Rate work, and NTS data later this year to evaluate whether Supplements Bill, which is currently being considered the current arrangements for reimbursing bus operators by Parliament, the Mayor will be required to set out a are appropriate for the longer term. wide range of information in a prospectus to be used as the basis for consulting on the proposal to levy a Bus Services: Standards business rate supplement. This information will include project costs and estimates of the amount of money the Mayor expects to raise from the business rate supplement Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department year on year. for Transport how many assessments under the driving quality monitoring scheme were conducted in (a) Departmental Conditions of Employment Liverpool, (b) Leeds, (c) Sheffield and (d) Glasgow in 2008-09; and how many of the assessments in each area Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department found the quality of driving to be unacceptable. for Transport pursuant to the answer of 2 June 2009, [279863] Official Report, column 295W, on departmental conditions of employment, what his most recent Paul Clark: The following table shows the number of estimate is of the cost of modifying systems in his Driver Quality Monitoring (DQM) assessments conducted Department’s shared service centre to accommodate by the Driving Standards Agency in Liverpool, Leeds, the workings of the flexible benefits project. [279994] Sheffield and Glasgow: Chris Mole: The cost of modifying systems in the 2008-09 Department for Transport’s shared service centre to Total DQM Unacceptable Unacceptable accommodate the workings of the flexible benefits project assessments serious faults dangerous faults is £62,700. This includes architecture changes, programming and payroll reconfiguration. Liverpool 38 9 0 Leeds 0 0 0 Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department Sheffield 40 26 0 for Transport pursuant to the answer of 3 June 2009, Glasgow 0 0 0 Official Report, column 485W, on departmental conditions of employment, on what calculations the There are no DQM contracts for Leeds and Glasgow estimate that the level of take-up required to break for the period. A contract covering Leeds was agreed in even with the scheme is about two per cent. over three May 2009. years was based. [280007] Crossrail Line: Finance Chris Mole: The cost of implementing and administering flexible benefits over three years is £173,000, including Robert Neill: To ask the Minister of State, Department reconfiguration of the shared services centre system. To for Transport what estimate he has made of the sum break even with the scheme will require a 2 per cent. which the London supplementary business rate for Crossrail take-up of the benefits we are considering, which equates will raise in gross revenue in each year of its operation; to an estimated annual spend of £535,000, with aggregated and what percentage of the cost of the project this employer national insurance contribution savings of contribution represents. [279903] £183,000 over three years. The costing model has been verified by Deloitte who are acting as our benefit Mr. Khan: The funding package for Crossrail announced consultants. by the Prime Minister in October 2007 reflects a Departmental Official Hospitality contribution of £4.1 billion in relation to the Business Rate Supplement, £3.5 billion of which will be borrowed Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department by the Mayor of London against the revenues to be for Transport how much his Department has spent on raised from a business rate supplement in the future and hiring non-departmental premises for (a) hospitality the remaining estimated £600 million being business and entertainment and (b) training events in the last rate supplement revenues to be contributed directly to 12 months. [279645] the project during the period of construction. The Crossrail Sponsors Agreement (signed by Transport Chris Mole: In the most recent completed financial for London and the Department for Transport in December year, 2008-09, the Department for Transport’s agencies 2008) includes a forecast profile of the year on year spent £12,700 on hiring non-departmental premises in amounts to be raised by the Mayor through the Crossrail respect of hospitality and entertainment and £369,468 business rate supplement to support his contribution to in respect of training events. 287W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 288W

The accounting systems of the core Department do Number of local authority not record such costs separately from other related projects receiving conditional expenditure, so the information sought cannot be provided Calendar year approval without disproportional cost. 2009 (to date) 1 (Sheffield highway maintenance) Departmental Press 2008 2 (Street lighting) 2007 8 (Street lighting) 2006 1 (Thames Gateway, cancelled Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, by Mayor of London) Department for Transport what (a) newspapers and 2005 1 (Street lighting) (b) periodicals are delivered to the private office of 2004 7 (Street lighting) each Minister in his Department; and at what cost in the latest period for which figures are available. Prior to receiving a full outline business case and [279424] granting conditional approval, the Department may grant provisional approval for a local authority project. Chris Mole: The list of newspapers and periodicals There are currently four local authority PFI projects that are delivered to the ministerial private offices of the with provisional approvals: Department for Transport are as follows: Mersey Crossing; Newspapers Nottingham Express Tram extension; Daily Express Hounslow highway maintenance; and Daily Mail Isle of Wight highway maintenance. Daily Mirror In addition, Official Journal of the European Union Daily Telegraph (OJEU) notices were issued for the following non-local authority projects, initiating procurement: Financial Times The Guardian Number of non-local authority Evening Standard 1st Edition Calendar year projects issuing OJEU notices Evening Standard West End Final 2009 (to date) 0 Standard West End Final Extra 2008 0 Local Government Chronicle 2007 0 2006 1 (Joint MCA/MOD search and The Times rescue helicopters) The Independent 2005 1 (Highways Agency M25 The Sun DBFO) 2004 0 Yorkshire Post Lloyds List Periodicals Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many private finance initiative projects The Economist are being negotiated by each directorate in his Department. New Statesman [280388] Modern Railways National Geographic Chris Mole: The search and rescue helicopters private Prospect finance initiative (PFI) is being negotiated by a joint Buses Ministry of Defence and Maritime and Coastguard Agency project team. Private Eye While the Department for Transport currently sponsors The Spectator a number of local authority PFI projects, these are Commercial Motor negotiated directly by the local authority project teams. Railway Magazine The total cost for period from 1 April 2008 to 31 March Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2009 was £9,239.16. for Transport what plans he has for the future use of the private finance initiative in the (a) procurement, (b) construction and (c) operation of transport projects. Departmental Private Finance Initiative [280389]

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Chris Mole: The Department for Transport updates for Transport how many private finance initiative projects details of the signed (i.e. in construction and operational have been agreed by his Department in each of the last phases) private finance initiatives (PFI) projects it sponsors five years. [280387] on the HM Treasury website at six monthly intervals: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ppp-pfi_stats.htm Chris Mole: The following table summarises the local The HM Treasury list was last updated in April 2009, authority private finance initiative projects agreed by since then the Highways Agency has also awarded the the Department for Transport in the last five years: M25 widening DBFO. 289W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 290W

The Department is sponsoring a further 13 local Copies of the risk assessment have been placed in the authority projects that are in procurement and four in Libraries of the House. pre-procurement. In addition to this the Department’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency is jointly procuring a Driving: Working Hours search and rescue helicopter PFI with the Ministry of Defence. The Department has a further £1.69 billion in unallocated Alistair Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department PFI credits that are available for use on local authority for Transport if he will seek an exemption for recreational PFI projects. horsebox drivers from EU regulations on drivers’ hours; and if he will make a statement. [280090] Departmental Training Paul Clark: The EU drivers’ hours rules, which are Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, directly applicable in all EU member states, apply to Department for Transport what training courses have most drivers of goods vehicles in excess of 3.5 tonnes. been attended by special advisers in his Department in There are a number of exemptions from the EU rules, the last 12 months; and at what cost. [279391] one of which applies to vehicles not exceeding 7.5 tonnes Chris Mole: Special advisers receive training as used for the non-commercial carriage of goods—which appropriate to enable them to fulfil their duties and would include some privately owned horseboxes. responsibilities as set out in the “Model Contract for Special Advisers”. Electric Vehicles In the last 12 months special advisers in the Department for Transport have attended mandatory Information Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department and Communication Technology training courses at a for Transport what his most recent estimate is of the total cost of £141.67 to the Department. cost of establishing a recharging point for electric and hybrid plug-in vehicles. [279585] Driving Standards Agency: Consultants

Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Khan: The cost of installing a recharging point for Transport how much the Driving Standards Agency for electric vehicles will depend on what type of technology spent on consultants in each of the last five years. is used, its location and what, if any, ancillary work—for [280343] example ground works, utility connection, signage—is needed. Procuring points in volume or where supporting Paul Clark: In each of the last five years the Driving infrastructure already exists is likely to be significantly Standards Agency spent the following amounts on cheaper. consultants: As a broad indication of the range of possible costs, free standing on street charging points may cost between £ £500 and £3,500, with accompanying street works where required costing up to £5,000. The total cost of installing 2004-05 3,617,982 a plug point on a wall where a power supply exists may 2005-06 1,210,003 be in the region of £250 to £1,000. More innovative fast 2006-07 5,139,575 charging or battery swap infrastructure would be more 2007-08 3,532,192 expensive to deliver. 2008-09 3,418,022 It should also be noted that many motorists are likely Driving Tests: Motorcycles to choose to recharge their electric and plug in hybrid vehicles at home overnight, provided they have secure Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Minister of State, Department access to a standard 13 amp socket. This would not cost for Transport what assessment he has made of the anything at all. effectiveness of the arrangements for the safety of candidates taking the Module One motorcycle test; and if he will Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department make a statement. [279306] for Transport how many recharging points for electric and hybrid plug-in vehicles he expects to be procured Paul Clark: In order to design a safe off-road manoeuvre from the £20 million allocated for that purpose in the test to comply with the European Directive, the Driving 2009 Budget. [279586] Standards Agency (DSA) undertook trials and risk assessments involving rider training organisations. The Mr. Khan: The Secretary of State for Transport Agency tested the proposals in public consultation and announced in April that up to £20 million will be benchmarked ideas with comparable organisations in provided by the Department to support the development other member states. of infrastructure supporting electric vehicles in select Prior to the introduction of the two part motorcycle lead cities and regions in the UK. An estimate has not test, DSA carried out a risk assessment of both Modules been made at this time as to the total number of of the new test. recharging points likely to be procured under the scheme. This included assessments and identification of A range of charging technologies and infrastructure appropriate controls of the testing area, including the solutions exist, which vary in scale and cost. The total boundaries and the surface of the off-road manoeuvring number of recharging points supported from the £20 million area. The level of preparedness of test candidates was allocated will therefore depend on local plans and also assessed. requirements. 291W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 292W

Applications for funding will be judged on a range of M25 criteria, which will include the number of public charging points delivered. Further details on the scheme will be announced shortly. Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what the public sector comparator figure Heathrow Airport is for the M25 design, build, finance and operate widening project. [278571] Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent assessment he Chris Mole: The Public Sector Comparator is expressed has made of the likely effect of a third runway at in Net Present Value terms (NPV) in accordance with Heathrow Airport on the quality of life of people HMT guidance. The NPV for the M25 Design, Build, living in (a) Tooting and (b) the London Borough of Finance and Operate Contract is £3.40 billion. The equivalent NPV figure for the Public Sector Comparator Wandsworth. [279534] is £3.83 billion. Paul Clark: Our assessment of the likely effects of a third runway at Heathrow airport was presented in the Motor Vehicles: Foreigners “Adding Capacity at Heathrow Airport” consultation document published on 22 November 2007. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department That showed that Tooting and the London borough for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of Wandsworth would not generally be overflown by of foreign-registered (a) heavy goods vehicles, (b) vans, any arriving or departing aircraft in the event of a third (c) cars and (d) motorcycles using UK roads in each of runway. This would be an improvement on the present the last five years. [279600] position for these areas which experience some overflying by arriving aircraft at a height of 3,000 feet or less. Paul Clark: Estimates of foreign registered traffic are not available for any years prior to 2007. London and Continental Railways In 2007 0.5 per cent. of British traffic, around one in Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, every 215 kilometres, was estimated to be driven by Department for Transport pursuant to the written foreign registered vehicles. These 2007 figures are not ministerial statement of 8 June 2009, Official Report, available broken down by vehicle type, and such estimates columns 24-26WS, on London and Continental could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Railways, what estimate he has made of the monetary However, estimates of the rate of foreign registered value of (a) St. Pancras International station and (b) traffic for 2008, including analyses by vehicle type, are the high speed rail line from St. Pancras International due to be published within the Department for Transport’s station to the Channel Tunnel. [279657] Statistical Bulletin, ‘Road Statistics 2008’, on 25 June 2009. Chris Mole: The Government are currently engaged in a restructuring of London and Continental Railways. Motor Vehicles: Registration Following this, it is the Government’s intention, as market conditions allow, to sell a long-term concession for High Speed 1 in such a way as to maximise value for Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department money for the taxpayer. for Transport how many and what proportion of vehicles registered in each of the last 10 years were vehicles The estimate of the expected proceeds is commercially previously registered abroad. [280374] confidential and to publish the information might condition the competitive sale process and damage value. Paul Clark: The following table provides the number Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, of vehicles previously registered abroad for the last Department for Transport pursuant to the written eight financial years. Also displayed are the total number ministerial statement of 8 June 2009, Official Report, of vehicles registered and the proportion of vehicles columns 24-26WS, on London and Continental previously registered abroad against the total number Railways, what estimate he has made of the cost to the of vehicles registered. Figures are not available for public purse of restructuring (a) HS1 Ltd and (b) the financial years 1999-2000 and 2000-01. UK’s interest in Eurostar. [279658] Percentage of Chris Mole: The restructuring of London and Vehicles vehicles Financial Total vehicles previously previously Continental Railways (LCR) announced on 8 June year registered registered abroad registered abroad 2009 involved no further commitment of public funds over and above those committed during the restructurings 2008-09 2,448,918 75,101 3.1 of the company in 1998, 2001 and 2002. 2007-08 3,013,123 95,038 3.2 The current financial restructuring provides for the 2006-07 2,957,135 93,233 3.2 redistribution of support already committed to allow 2005-06 3,017,849 109,785 3.6 LCR’s subsidiary businesses to be established on a 2004-05 3,159,400 124,124 3.9 stand-alone commercial basis. This will allow the value 2003-04 3,247,359 135,926 4.2 of those businesses to be realised in due course with a 2002-03 3,230,476 113,414 3.5 commensurate reduction in the overall level of state 2001-02 3,198,759 105,466 3.3 support. 293W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 294W

Railways However, through the franchising process and grants to Network Rail, the Department provides funding for Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister of State, Department the services promoted by partnerships. It also provides for Transport what his most recent assessment is of the core funding for the national umbrella body representing capacity of the existing rail network for (a) passenger and supporting partnerships, the Association of and (b) freight services. [281097] Community Rail Partnerships. Working with Network Rail, the Department makes available small grants to Chris Mole: During the preparation of the 2007 Rail contribute towards specific projects such as promotions White Paper, the Government carried out assessments and small scale station improvements. It will also be of the adequacy of the capacity of the rail network. The making grants to assist with training and development assessments drew on work carried out by the rail industry, of employees for Community Rail Partnerships on officially and the outcome is published in the 2007 Rail White designated routes. Paper ’Delivering a Sustainable Railway’ available from Railways: Franchises the Department for Transport website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy/whitepapers/ Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department whitepapercm7176 for Transport (1) what estimate he has made of his Since its publication, the Government asked Network Department’s (a) actual and (b) potential liabilities Rail to undertake a new lines study to identify longer under revenue support clauses in contracts with train term capacity requirements. operators in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10; what assessment Initial results from Network Rail’s study indicated a he has made of the effects of passenger number projections long-term capacity gap from London to the West Midlands, on those liabilities in each case; and if he will make a which is why we have tasked High Speed Two to advise statement; [279581] on the feasibility of a new high speed line from London (2) what funding has been allocated to his Department to the West Midlands as a first stage, and beyond the to meet liabilities or potential liabilities under revenue West Midlands at the level of broad corridors. support clauses in train operator franchises in (a) Railways: Fares 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; [279593] (3) how much has been allocated from the rail budget Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, for Control Period Four to cover revenue support Department for Transport if he will estimate the cost to clauses in train operator franchises. [279602] the public purse of an assumption of an increase in unregulated rail fares of RPI plus one per cent. in each Chris Mole: The amount of any revenue support franchise contract (a) in January 2010 and (b) at the payable to eligible franchise holders is dependant on the renewal date of each franchise. [279710] performance of individual franchises and is set out in the relevant franchise contracts with the Department Chris Mole [holding answer 16 June 2009]: The levels for Transport. of unregulated fares are a commercial matter for individual The Department’s internal forecasts for and amounts train operators. For business planning purposes operators payable or receivable under these revenue sharing may make assumptions of any projected changes to arrangements are commercially confidential. unregulated fares, but this is a matter for the operator concerned. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions he has had with Railways: Finance the Chancellor of the Exchequer on funding to meet liabilities or potential liabilities under revenue support John Barrett: To ask the Minister of State, Department clauses in train operator franchises. [279592] for Transport what account his Department takes of the effect of expenditure on railways on levels of tax Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has regular receipts from other modes of transport when considering discussions with Treasury Ministers and officials on a future rail spending plans. [280256] range of issues concerning railway finances. Revenue support and sharing arrangements is one of these issues. Chris Mole: The account taken of changes in tax receipts from other modes in the economic appraisal of Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, rail schemes, and hence in considering spending plans, Department for Transport what proportion of the rail is set out in the paper ″NATA Refresh—Appraisal for budget has been allocated to settle franchise disputes in a Sustainable Transport System″ published on the Control Period Four. [279901] Department’s website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2008/ Chris Mole: The Government expect all operators to consulnatarefresh/natarefresh2009.pdf adhere to the terms of the contracts that they have entered into with the Department for Transport. As Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department such, no specific funds have been allocated for the for Transport what funding his Department is providing settlement of any disputes. for community rail partnerships in 2009-10. [280733] Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not Department for Transport how many disputes were provide core funding for Community Rail Partnerships dealt with by the Rail Industry Dispute Resolution which are essentially local organisations and therefore Committee in 2008-09; and at what cost to the public locally funded. purse. [279902] 295W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 296W

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not Chris Mole: The table provides the combined duration hold information on the number of cases handled by of road closures, due to road traffic accidents by police the Rail Industry Dispute Resolution Committee. The force area in the south west for each area of the periods hon. Member should write to the Committee itself at requested. the following address: The information available is for road traffic accidents John Gott where the police have requested Highways Agency Railway Industry Dispute Resolution Committee involvement. No data are held for those occurrences Central House where the police have dealt with an accident alone. 14 Upper Woburn Place Motorways by police force area from July 2005 onwards Duration of road closures in hours/minutes on London motorways per year WC1H 0HY July Police force 2005 Railways: South East area onwards 2006 2007 2008 2009 Avon and 34:45 37:04 82:30 54:30 11:30 Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Somerset for Transport how much was spent by his Department Wiltshire n/a 11:50 21:05 38:15 4:25 on the re-letting of the South Central franchise. [280386] Gloucester 15:05 13:55 60:35 32:30 1:50 Devon and 0:30 2:30 11:10 6:25 0:55 Chris Mole: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of Cornwall 16 June 2009, Official Report, columns 177-78W. Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation 13 May 2009, Official Report, columns 773-74W, on roads: accidents, what the combined duration of road Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department closures on each trunk road referred to was (a) in the for Transport how much funding has been allocated to period July to December 2005, (b) in 2006, (c) in his Department’s infrastructure grant programme for 2007, (d) in 2008 and (e) in the period January to June low carbon transport. [279546] 2009. [279996] Chris Mole: The table provides the combined duration Mr. Khan: The Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Grant of road closures due to road traffic accidents for each Programme (AFIGP) was launched in 2005 with a trunk road in each of the periods requested. budget of £500,000 grant funding per year. The information available is for road traffic accidents In addition, the then Secretary of State for Transport where the police have requested Highways Agency announced in April that up to £20 million will be involvement. No data are held for those occurrences provided by the Department to support the development where the police have dealt with an accident alone. of infrastructure supporting electric vehicles in a few Also, the data available for all purpose trunk roads west lead cities and regions in the UK. of Exeter are from autumn 2006 onwards, and from More broadly the Department supports low carbon July 2005 for other Highways Agency roads in the south transport through a wide range of funding streams and west network. other policies. All purpose trunk roads Duration of road closures in hours/minutes on all Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department purpose trunk roads per year for Transport what recent assessment he has made of July to the effects of his Department’s infrastructure grant Trunk road December programme on progress towards meeting targets on number 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 renewable sources for transport fuel use. [279547] A30/A35 0 28:40 43:25 50:40 22:30 DBFO Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport’s principle A30 Non n/k 14:50 83:30 136:10 44:50 policy for delivering progress towards meeting targets DBFO on renewable sources for transport fuel use is the Renewable A38 n/k 3:25 63:30 138:20 61:15 Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO). The Alternative A417/A419 5:30 11:30 21:00 19:00 5:30 Fuels Infrastructure Grant Programme is designed to DBFO trial and demonstrate infrastructure to support a range A36 9:15 26:20 60:00 8:50 20:15 of alternatively fuelled vehicles. A303 12:40 89:10 109:20 61:10 7:45 A30 East 1:10 0 0 4:55 0 of Honiton Roads: Accidents A4 14:10 0 2:25 0 0 A40 15:10 13:50 6:50 9:20 5:25 Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, Department A46 11:30 14:50 23:00 12:00 5:00 for Transport pursuant to the answer of 13 May 2009, n/k = Not known Official Report, columns 773-74W, on roads: accidents, Shipping what the combined duration of road closures in each police force area in the south west was (a) from July to Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Minister of State, December 2005, (b) in 2006, (c) in 2007, (d) in 2008 Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of and (e) in 2009 to date. [279995] 5 March 2009, Official Report, column 1729W, on 297W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 298W shipping, when he expects to decide whether to conduct Paul Clark: The Department of Transport’s assessment a second consultation exercise on the draft regulations; on this subject was contained in the Department’s and if he will make a statement. [280123] memorandum of evidence submitted to the Environmental Audit Committee last year. The memorandum is reproduced Paul Clark: During the summer, consideration will be in the published Environmental Audit Committee report given by the Department for Transport, as to whether a on ‘Reducing CO2 and other emissions from shipping’ second consultation will be required on draft regulations (HC 528, Session 2008-09), on pages Ev 66-70. to control ship to ship transfers of oil in UK territorial waters taking account of comments made by consultees. Shipping: Pollution

Shipping: Accidents Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what steps his Department is taking in Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Minister of State, Department international fora to reduce pollution emissions from for Transport if he will commission the Health and shipping. [279972] Safety Executive to undertake research into the circumstances surrounding the capsize of (a) offshore Paul Clark: The Department for Transport is involved oil-rig support tugs and (b) other vessels in UK and in a wide range of work within the relevant international international waters in the last five years for the purposes and European forums to address pollutant emissions of improving safety measures in relation to escape from shipping. routes from such vessels. [279865] In particular the Department works within the International Maritime Organisation to address a range Paul Clark: The safety of vessels, including offshore of pollution issues. Currently this work includes measures oil-rig support tugs is a matter for the Maritime and to address air quality, garbage and ballast water from Coastguard Agency (MCA) rather than the Health and shipping, with the Department playing a leading role in Safety Executive. recently adopted measures to reduce SOx and NOx A comprehensive review of the circumstances emissions from ships. surrounding the capsize of an offshore oil-rig support tug has been completed recently by the Norwegian Southern: Standards maritime administration. The conclusions of this review are to be incorporated as appropriate into the “North West European Area Guidelines for the Safe Management Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department of Offshore Supply and Anchor Handling Operations” for Transport whether the new South Central operator (NWEA Guidelines) and into international safety proposed targets for passenger satisfaction as part of its regulations under the auspices of the International bid. [280377] Maritime Organisation. Chris Mole: The South Central franchise specification The MCA fully endorses the outcome of the Norwegian required the operator to set targets based on National review, welcomes the improvements to the NWEA Passenger Survey results for trains, stations and customer Guidelines and believes that further research would not service, split by groups of services—South London, enhance what has already been done recently in this Sussex and Coast and Gatwick Express. If these targets area. In particular, it is considered that current requirements are not achieved the bidder is required to spend up to for escape routes from ships are adequate for the risks £0.5 million per annum to implement a plan to rectify faced, and that special escape routes from capsized any deficiencies. vessels would be impractical and might even increase risk to lives and vessels. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what (a) enhancements and (b) investments Shipping: Carbon Emissions stipulated in the South Central franchise will be funded by (i) the Government and (ii) Southern Trains; and Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department how much each will cost. [280383] for Transport whether he plans to set targets for carbon dioxide emissions reductions from the shipping industry. Chris Mole: The franchising process does not allow [279976] for the identification of individual sources of investment. Instead, it provides an overall price to Government of Paul Clark: Shipping is an international industry and the package that is proposed by the bidder (either regulation of carbon dioxide from shipping will be most subsidy or in the case of South Central a £534 million effectively achieved through international action. To premium). It is thus not possible to identify the individual this end the Government are seeking to ensure that the investment costs being borne by the South Central 15th Session of the Conference of the Parties to the operator or the Government. United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in Copenhagen on 7-18 December 2009 will set Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department an emissions reduction target for the shipping sector. for Transport how much his Department plans to spend on staffing of new gating systems for the new South Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department Central franchise; and how much Transport for London for Transport what recent assessment he has made of has agreed to spend to ensure stations on the new South the accuracy of the methodology for calculating carbon Central franchise are staffed from first to last service on dioxide emissions from shipping. [279977] each operational day. [280385] 299W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 300W

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is not minutes and 100 per cent. of the return fare for any funding the staffing of new gating systems on an individual delay of 120 minutes or more. For season tickets, basis. These plans form part of an overall franchise bid compensation is calculated using the proportional daily and it is not possible to disaggregate staffing costs to cost of the ticket. this level. Transport for London will be contributing around Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department £4 million to the franchise. for Transport for what period the winning bid for the South Central franchise assumes an RPI plus one per Southern: Tickets cent. increase for unregulated fares. [280382]

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Chris Mole: The level of unregulated fares are a for Transport whether Integrated Transport Smartcard matter for individual operators. This remains the position Organisation smartcards are planned to be in place within the South Central franchise. The winning bid across the whole South Central franchise area by 2012. has assumed that unregulated fares will increase by RPI +1 per cent. on average across the duration of the [280380] franchise. Chris Mole: The franchisee is required to install an Speed Limits: Cameras Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO) based smartcard system by January 2012. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many fixed penalty notices have been Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department issued by each Safety Camera Partnership and successor for Transport what the terms are for the delay repay organisation since 2001. [279597] scheme stipulated in the South Central franchise. [280381] Paul Clark: The Department for Transport holds only information about speed and red light cameras Chris Mole: The terms of the delay/repay scheme to operating under the National Safety Camera Programme be introduced on the new South Central franchise are which started in 2001 and ended on 31 March 2007. The the same as that introduced on other recent franchise numbers of fixed penalty notices issued by each safety competitions. camera partnership were not collected. However, details The terms apply to all ticket types, with an entitlement of fixed penalty notices issued and subsequently paid, to 50 per cent. compensation for a delay of between broken down by partnership area, are outlined in the 30 and 59 minutes; 100 per cent. for a delay of 60-119 following table:

Speed and red light fixed penalty notices paid, by partnership and financial year 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07

Avon and Somerset — — 68,067 99,151 82,054 73,914 59,555 Bedfordshire — — 50,792 60,920 58,439 50,558 50,362 Cambridgeshire — 2,257 12,856 20,763 19,941 20,998 20,474 Cheshire — — — 30,064 37,690 33,256 32,469 Cleveland 14,983 14,418 24,395 21,144 21,907 21,056 18,101 Cumbria — — — 26,979 29,792 26,836 30,984 Derbyshire — 10,900 32,192 47,040 40,485 30,072 29,041 Devon and Cornwall — — 19,749 48,974 53,204 47,508 43,144 Dorset — — 23,733 65,984 49,791 50,098 46,822 Essex 30,775 58,735 94,537 85,629 78,505 78,881 65,284 Gloucestershire —————13,70212,081 Greater Manchester — — — 48,118 41,221 59,085 67,578 Hampshire — — 29,096 41,587 52,128 48,476 45,171 Hertfordshire — — 5,464 31,695 58,556 46,887 42,759 Humberside — — 0 44,681 42,469 45,289 36,164 Kent — — 30,994 54,929 60,959 50,285 61,206 Lancashire — 19,953 98,495 84,560 58,869 62,887 57,551 Leicestershire — — 33,644 38,538 29,368 37,010 30,066 Lincolnshire 10,450 10,477 26,222 23,717 25,977 29,252 21,924 London — — 85,351 108,291 148,379 157,597 126,130 Merseyside —————18,33224,848 Mid and South Wales 26,117 31,271 121,076 121,353 109,224 101,014 98,031 Norfolk — 2,669 20,101 27,157 23,958 22,100 24,914 North Wales — 10,813 43,484 56,247 50,495 66,038 55,399 Northamptonshire 36,131 45,559 59,845 55,819 47,976 51,265 42,186 Northumbria — — — 53,426 71,647 63,387 48,407 Nottinghamshire 9,273 14,472 46,711 55,530 59,392 52,940 53,129 South Yorkshire — — 15,814 52,816 51,048 60,376 41,982 Staffordshire — 10,520 36,299 40,604 45,054 46,632 43,109 Suffolk — — — 24,144 39,406 33,087 31,623 301W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 302W

Speed and red light fixed penalty notices paid, by partnership and financial year 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07

Surrey —————23,94039,224 Sussex — — 26,582 62,880 46,752 56,912 50,032 Thames Valley 37,319 77,881 114,933 111,646 92,690 90,833 75,248 Warwickshire — 3,405 39,810 50,862 43,454 39,088 33,536 West Mercia — — — 51,436 51,599 47,554 44,191 West Midlands — — 11,742 46,000 54,904 48,073 45,820 West Yorkshire — — 37,594 60,432 67,076 56,838 42,955 Wiltshire — — 21,693 39,680 51,085 48,368 50,230

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department formal PIC assessment will take place at its 29-30 June for Transport pursuant to the answer of 1 June 2009, 2009 Steering Board meeting, which is likely to determine Official Report, column 19W, on speed limits: cameras, that there has been some progress but that further whether he has established a regular programme of progress is needed, in particular on the allocation of evaluation of speed cameras. [280073] state property, and linked decisions on defence property.

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport seeks to Departmental Recruitment identify and disseminate examples of good practice across the road safety field generally. In addition, the Mr. Davey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Department’s guidance on the use of safety cameras and Commonwealth Affairs how many graduates have recommends that speed and collision data are collected been recruited into the European Fast Stream in each by the partnerships and the contribution cameras make year since the establishment of the programme. to casualty reduction monitored and reviewed, at least [270843] annually. Mr. Watson: I have been asked to reply. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department The numbers of graduates recruited into the European for Transport what guidance his Department issues to Fast Stream in each year since the establishment of the safety camera partnerships on their (a) expenditure on programme are contained in the annual reports of the and (b) use of communications services. [280076] Civil Service Commissioners between 1991 and 1995, and thereafter in the Fast Stream Annual Reports published Paul Clark: The Department for Transport issued by the Cabinet Office. DFT Circular 01/2007, ‘Guidance on the Deployment Copies of these documents are available in the Libraries of Speed and Red Light Cameras’ on 31 January 2007. of the House. The guidance was placed in the Libraries of the House and is also available on the Department’s website. This Devolution recommends that partnerships proactively provide information about safety cameras, including their Adam Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign deployment and benefits, but do so as part of a wider and Commonwealth Affairs if he will seek the addition approach to road safety related communications that of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to the UN’s aim to raise public awareness of behaviours that can list of territories in the process of decolonisation. cause casualties on the roads. Communications expenditure [280232] is entirely a matter for individual local partnerships using funds from their allocation of the Department’s Chris Bryant: The arrangements of Chapter XI of specific road safety grant. the UN Charter (Declaration regarding Non-Self Governing Territories) relate to former colonies for the purposes of domestic and international law. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are part of the UK. As FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE far as the overseas territories are concerned we remain committed to modernising our relationship with them, Bosnia and Herzegovina: Politics and Government while fully taking into account the views of the peoples of the Territories. We believe the decision as to whether Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign a non-self-governing territory has reached a level of and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment his self-government sufficient to relieve the administering Department has made of Bosnia and Herzegovina’s power of the obligation to submit information under progress towards meeting the conditions for closure of Article 73e of the Charter is ultimately for the government the Office of the High Representative; and if he will of the territory and the administering power concerned make a statement. [279700] and not the UN General Assembly.

David Miliband: The last meeting of the Peace Members: Correspondence Implementation Council (PIC) Steering Board on 25-26 March 2009 assessed that Bosnia and Herzegovina Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for (BiH) had not yet achieved the five objectives and two Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to conditions required for a closure of the Office of the reply to the letter of 14 February 2009 from Mr. Colin High Representative and urged BiH political leaders to Adams of Newport Pagnell, a constituent of the hon. intensify efforts to meet the conditionality. The next Member for North East Milton Keynes. [267750] 303W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 304W

Mr. Woolas: I have been asked to reply. at the General Affairs and External Relations Council The British embassy in Moscow replied direct to on 23 February 2009, the informal meeting of Foreign Mr. Adams’ letter to the Foreign Secretary, which was Ministers (Gymnich) on 28 March 2009 and the General dated 16 February 2009, on 5 March 2009. Affairs and External Relations Council on 15 June 2009. On 15 June I had made clear to EU partners that, Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for on the basis of Serbia’s significantly improved co-operation Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former reply to the letter of 5 May 2009 from the right hon. Yugoslavia (ICTY), the EU should be prepared to Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms J implement Serbia’s Interim Agreement with the EU. Wilkinson. [280439] But to date there has been no consensus among EU member states on this. Ratification of Serbia’s Stabilisation David Miliband: I replied to my right hon. Friend’s and Association Agreement remains dependent on an letter on 10 June 2009. assessment that Serbia is fully co-operating with the ICTY. Nigeria: Armed Forces Serbia: War Crimes Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign made representations to the government of Nigeria on and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has its military action in the Niger Delta. [279777] made of Serbia’s levels of cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in light of Chris Bryant: The Government have been following Chief Hague Prosecutor Serge Brammertz’s report of events closely since the Nigerian Joint Task Force (JTF) 21 May 2009; and if he will make a statement. [279699] offensive commenced in the Niger Delta in mid-May. Our high commission in Abuja was quick to raise our David Miliband: The Government share the assessment concerns about the humanitarian impact of the conflict. of Chief Prosecutor Senga Poranitz, as set out to the UN Security Council on 4 June 2009, and EU Foreign We have received assurances from both the Nigerian Ministers on 15 June 2009, that Serbia’s level of co-operation Foreign Minister and the Nigerian Military High Command with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former that their aim is to avoid civilian casualties and that any Yugoslavia has significantly improved in the last 12 months. humanitarian needs would be addressed. We are continuing to monitor reports from the Delta from non-governmental Sri Lanka: International Monetary Fund organisations and others. We also pressed for the EU Troika to raise the situation with the Nigerian Government in a Ministerial Troika Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign meeting on 9 June 2009. and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make representations to the International Monetary Fund to suspend its Serbia: EU Enlargement support to the Government of Sri Lanka; and if he will make a statement. [280298]

Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. and Commonwealth Affairs what the Government’s policy is on the (a) Serbia-EU interim agreement The UK has not yet been asked to vote on a programme and (b) Serbia-EU Stabilisation and Association for Sri Lanka, as a programme has not been brought to the board for decision. At the time a programme is Agreement; and if he will make a statement. [279697] presented it will be assessed on its merits and the David Miliband: The Government welcomed the signature situation on the ground in Sri Lanka at the time to last year of Serbia’s Stabilisation and Association decide whether it will help the people of Sri Lanka. The Agreement (SAA) with the EU. The Government’s position Chancellor in his role as Governor to the IMF will remains that ratification of the SAA must be conditional make any final decision on UK support. on Serbia’s full co-operation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). But the Government would be content, on the basis of Serbia’s significantly improved co-operation with ICTY, ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS for the EU to begin to implement Serbia’s Interim Agreement with the EU. Animal Experiments

Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent he has had with his EU counterparts on (a) the discussions he has had with representatives of the implementation of the Serbia-EU interim agreement chemicals industry on minimising levels of animal and (b) ratification of the Serbia-EU Stabilisation and testing in the development of new chemical products. Association Agreement; and if he will make a [278113] statement. [279698] Dan Norris: My predecessor Huw Irranca-Davies David Miliband: The implementation of Serbia’s Interim had regular meetings with representatives of the chemicals Agreement with the EU and ratification of its Stabilisation industry and other interested stakeholders to discuss a and Association Agreement with the EU were discussed wide range of subjects, including animal testing. 305W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 306W

Regulation of chemicals in the EU is now co-ordinated Jim Fitzpatrick: Ministers and officials have been in through REACH (Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation discussion with senior dairy industry leaders. Officials and Restriction of Chemicals). REACH has a clear aim remain in close contact with the receivers (PWC) to to minimise the use of animal testing and includes the ensure minimal disruption throughout the dairy supply means to achieve that. It makes animal testing the chain, including the effect on the sector as a whole. option of last resort where there are no suitable non-animal alternative tests available, requires the mandatory sharing Dairy Farming of all existing data on the intrinsic properties of chemicals derived from animal tests when completing registrations, and bans repetition of animal tests. In addition, industry Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for has to provide a full justification if further animal tests Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent are proposed to fill identified data gaps, and gain the assessment he has made of the state of dairy farming in approval of the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) the UK; and what steps he is taking to ensure the before such tests may be conducted. Test proposals are long-term sustainability of the industry. [279829] required to be published on ECHA’s website for 45 days, to allow interested third parties to submit scientifically-valid Jim Fitzpatrick: We are helping the dairy industry to comments. help itself through the Dairy Supply Chain Forum, which provides a framework for constructive debate and information for industry to make informed decisions about their future. The Forum also aims to increase Central Science Laboratory: Manpower sector efficiency and promote the sustainable development. We are also helping the industry to adjust as part of Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, the on-going CAP Reform. One of the aims of the 2003 Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) directors, (b) Reform was to see the end of price support mechanisms, senior managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers which distort the market and give false signals to producers. and (d) executive support and administration staff We continue to press for further reform of the remaining there were in each Central Science Laboratory office in aspects of the dairy price support mechanisms to make each of the last five years. [279289] the sector internationally competitive.

Dan Norris: Central Science Laboratory (CSL) had Departmental Furniture only one main site, at Sand Hutton near York, during the period covered by the question. In addition, a Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for number of staff were home-based or based at small Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much each outstations. Consequently, the following figures relate of his Department’s agencies spent on furniture in each to all CSL staff. of the last five years. [273792] Central Science Laboratory staff headcount by classification, 2005-09 Classification 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 Dan Norris: From information held centrally, the core-Department’s financial system records the following 1 Director 96666expenditure on furniture and all related services (fitting, Senior 75 77 72 72 71 manager movement, etc.) by three of DEFRA’s Executive agencies Specialist/ 247 241 242 237 227 for the financial years 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2008-09: delivery manager £ Executive 73 76 79 82 74 Agency 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 support/ admin Animal health 622 283 757,768.56 Other2 302 280 302 358 299 Marine and 400 35 8,893 Total 706 680 701 3755 677 fisheries 1 Figures for directors in 2009 include three retiring as CSL directors on Government 0 65 4,427 31 March 2009 and the six new Fera directors. decontamination 2 ‘Other’ category includes all staff not specifically covered by question who are service involved in scientific support/delivery, e.g. fieldworkers, lab support, junior scientists. Further information could be provided only at 3 Large temporary increase in staff numbers due mainly to employment of approx 40 staff in support of badger research. disproportionate cost. Note: The figures in the table are as at 31 March each year. Departmental Procurement

Dairy Farmers of Britain Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much expenditure was incurred by his Department in respect of (a) Marten Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Walsh Cherer Ltd, (b) Nicholls Investigation Services, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what (c) Shell UK Ltd, (d) the Royal Yachting Association, assessment he has made of the effect of the collapse of (e) The Focus Group Ltd, (f) the Trades Union Congress, Dairy Farmers of Britain on (a) North Yorkshire and (g) Way Out Creations Sdn Bhd, (h) Charles Matts, (b) English dairy farmers; [279826] (i) Nia Wyn Jones, (j) Inova Furniture Contracts, (k) (2) whether he plans to bring forward measures to Gavin Scott, (l) Advance Seating Designs and (m) assist former suppliers of Dairy Farmers of Britain Dunster House in 2007-08; and what the purpose of the bring their milk to market. [279827] expenditure was in each case. [278992] 307W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 308W

Dan Norris: The core Department’s financial system Huw Irranca-Davies: No estimate has been made of records the following expenditure for the entities listed: the number of properties in high flood-risk areas that are not flood resistant or resilient. Investment by the Value Government over the last decade has led to a reduced Organisation Purpose (£) risk of flooding for over 250,000 households in England. Martin Walsh Cherer Translation services 4,630.93 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Conferences and events 1,125.12 Services Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects Professional services: 2,802.49 the national flood emergency framework to be Consultancy published. [280482] Nicholls Investigation n/a Nil Services Huw Irranca-Davies: A fully developed National Flood Shell UK Ltd Vehicle Fuel and Oils; 12,334.93 Emergency Framework will be in place by June 2010, in Vehicle Maintenance line with the commitment given in response to Sir The Royal Yachting Environmental Action 145,598.00 Michael Pitt’s review on the 2007 floods. The framework Association Fund will provide the basis for exercise watermark—our planned The Focus Group Ltd Conferences and Events 1,051.63 national exercise in March 2011. Services The Trades Union Conferences and Events 19,247.87 Plants Congress Services Way Out Creations Sdn Sustainable Development 4,499.00 Mrs. Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Bhd Programme Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Charles Matts Professional Services: 1,458.90 he has made of the role of ornamental plants in mitigating Consultancy the effects of climate change. [279479] Nia Wyn Jones Professional Services: 1,244.38 Consultancy Dan Norris: The Government have done no specific Inova Furniture Contracts Furniture 28,489.06 work to assess the role of ornamental plants in mitigating Gavin Scott Conferences and Events 1,500.00 the effects of climate change. However, the growth of Services plants captures carbon dioxide (carbon sequestration), Advance Seating Design Furniture and Office 1,187.32 so giving some mitigation for other emissions. Assessments Services of carbon capture have been made for forestry and Dunster House Waste Research 280.50 non-ornamental crops in the UK, since they represent the majority of the land use. The data available would allow a crude assessment of the potential for carbon Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal sequestration by ornamentals. More generally, ornamentals are a significant component Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for of green infrastructure, which can reduce air temperatures Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the in built up areas by up to 2° C. Some studies suggest Answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 22 April that surface temperatures can be reduced to a much 2009, Official Report, column 701W,on domestic waste: greater extent. Incorporating deciduous trees, including waste disposal, for what reasons the Waste and Resources ornamental trees, into building design can also help to Action Programme has ceased subsidising compost bins. reduce solar gain in summer reducing energy usage [279849] associated with air conditioning, while maintaining solar gain in winter. Apart from the role of green infrastructure Dan Norris: The Waste and Resources Action in reducing the urban heat island effect, the shade Programme (WRAP) stopped subsidising compost bins provided by ornamental trees will also play a role in in England in April 2009 and will cease selling compost reducing the incidence of skin cancers that is otherwise bins completely there at the end of September 2009. likely to increase as a result of projected reductions in Notice has been given to all stakeholders of this change. cloud cover. Green infrastructure also has a role to play Since its inception in 2004, the programme has sold in sustainable urban drainage systems, helping to alleviate and distributed 1.8 million compost bins in England the projected increase in flood risk. which are estimated to divert 250,000 tonnes of organic Rural Areas: Broadband waste each year. The programme has therefore met its original objectives and demonstrated the value of home composting as part of a local waste strategy. It was Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for appropriate at this stage for the issue of future subsidies Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent to become one for local authorities rather than central discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Government to decide. Business, Innovation and Skills on the provision of high-speed broadband access in rural areas. [279830]

Dan Norris: Broadband availability is vitally important Flood Control for rural areas. DEFRA Ministers have been in contact with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Business, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills (BIS) to ensure that rural areas Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent are taken into account in the development of the Digital estimate he has made of the number and proportion of Britain initiative which includes proposals for high speed buildings in high flood-risk areas which are not next generation networks. DEFRA officials will continue flood-resistant or resilient. [277401] to work closely with BIS on this matter. 309W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 310W

School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme Whales: Conservation

Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Food and Rural Affairs what progress has been made in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the the preparation of detailed implementing rules for an Government is taking to secure a comprehensive ban EU scheme for free fruit provision in schools; and if he on whaling by the Japanese government; and if he will will make a statement. [279748] make a statement. [279085]

Jim Fitzpatrick: EC Commission Regulation No. 288/ Huw Irranca-Davies: The UK Government will continue 2009, published on 7 April 2009, lays down implementing to make their opposition to whaling known to Japan at rules for the EU scheme for free fruit provision in every appropriate opportunity and argue that they schools. undermine the credibility of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) as an effective organisation for the Total Horsemanship conservation of whale stocks world-wide. Unfortunately the right of any Contracting Government Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, to the IWC to issue ‘Special permits’ and to conduct Food and Rural Affairs for what purpose expenditure lethal research into whaling is enshrined in Article VIII was incurred by his Department in respect of Total of the International Convention on the Regulation of Horsemanship Ltd in 2007-08. [278990] Whaling (ICRW). At the next annual meeting of the IWC in June, 2009 Dan Norris: The core Department’s financial system (IWC61) the UK will once again call on Japan to cease records expenditure of £240 on a two-day horsemanship its lethal whaling operations and engage in the non-lethal clinic under the expenditure category of ‘Learning and research of whales. Development: Health and Safety Training’ in 2007-08. Written Questions: Government Responses Waste Management Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for answer Question 270193, tabled on 17 April 2009, on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the domestic waste recycling. [280337] Answer to Baroness Warsi of 11 May 2009, Official Report, House of Lords, column WA177, on waste Dan Norris: The answer to Question 270193 appeared management, for what reasons a clarification of published on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 89W.I apologise policy was undertaken; and what account he took of for the delay in replying. rulings of the Local Government Ombudsman in his decision to amend section 46 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. [279942] CABINET OFFICE Dan Norris: The reason for amending section 46 of Departmental Press the Environmental Protection Act 1990 was to provide a single point of reference in legislation for local authorities. As part of any decision-making process, the Secretary Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister for the of State always takes account of relevant rulings of the Cabinet Office what (a) newspapers and (b) periodicals Ombudsman. are delivered to the Prime Minister’s private office; and at what cost in the latest period for which figures are available. [279429] Water Companies: Renewable Energy Angela E. Smith: The Prime Minister’s Office is an Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for integral part of the Cabinet Office and therefore the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent answer provided is for the whole of the Cabinet Office assessment Ofwat has made of the level of investment including the Prime Minister and his office. in renewable energy infrastructure by water companies. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the [280365] hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) on 9 October 2007, Official Report, column 530W. Huw Irranca-Davies: In water companies’ draft business plan submissions to Ofwat there were significant investments Departmental Travel related to renewable energy. Ofwat assessed the draft business plans and allowed a significant amount of Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet renewable energy related investment. This would lead to Office how much her Department spent on tickets for a 40 per cent. increase in the amount of renewable (a) air and (b) rail travel for (i) Ministers, (ii) special energy generated by the companies. Most of this increase advisers and (iii) civil servants in her Department comes from additional production of biogas from sludge which were not used in each of the last three years. treatment and a growth in combined heat and power [280011] (CHP) capacity. Ofwat are currently reviewing the final business plan Angela E. Smith: The information requested for the submissions from water companies. The outcome of Cabinet Office is not readily available and may not be their review will be made available on 23 July. obtained without incurring disproportionate costs. 311W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 312W

OLYMPICS (2) how much has been spent by each local authority in the East of England region per head of population Olympic Games 2012: Facilities on tackling anti-social behaviour in each of the last five years. [280228] Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics what her most recent estimate is of the cost of having Mr. Alan Campbell: In 2003, the Home Office undertook the Olympic grandstand in Hyde Park. [278773] a one day count of antisocial behaviour incidents to quantify their impact on key service providers. This Tessa Jowell: The London Organising Committee of estimated that the cost to Government agencies of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) responding to reports of antisocial behaviour in England has responsibility for staging the Olympic and Paralympic and Wales was approximately £3.4 billion per year. This Games at existing venues. The direct costs associated figure did not include indirect costs to local communities with staging the events at existing venues come from and businesses, nor the emotional costs to victims and LOCOG’s revenues which are primarily derived from witnesses. The cost of not taking action against antisocial commercial sponsorship, broadcast rights, ticket sales behaviour would be much higher. and merchandising/licensing—not from the public purse. Information on the amount spent by local authorities, There will be attributable costs to the public purse, including those in the eastern region, on tackling antisocial for example in respect of the security and transport behaviour is not collected centrally. Home Office funding functions associated with the venue. However these for local authorities to tackle antisocial behaviour now costs have not yet been identified separately for individual forms part of the general Area Based Grant (ABG) venues, but they will form part of the overall security paid by the Department of Communities and Local and transport budgets. Government. This grant is designed to increase the funding flexibility and allow local areas much greater freedom to spend money in a way they see fit to support the delivery of local, regional and national priorities in HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION their areas. Other Home Office led activities also act to tackle Members Staff: Contracts antisocial behaviour, for example the introduction of community support officers in the eastern region, but a Tony Lloyd: To ask the hon. Member for North monetary value cannot be assigned to that contribution. Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission Similarly, other programmes and services contribute, how many hon. Members have not lodged the contracts sometimes indirectly, to tackling antisocial behaviour, of all their staff with the Department of Resources. including diversionary activities for young people, [280459] neighbourhood wardens, as well as neighbourhood policing and neighbourhood management. Nick Harvey: At the present time 256 individual contracts have yet to be lodged with the Department of Resources for staff working for 164 hon. Members. Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the HOME DEPARTMENT Home Department (1) how many (a) anti-social behaviour orders and (b) acceptable behaviour contracts have Antisocial Behaviour been issued in (i) Tameside and (ii) Stockport in the last 12 months; [279772] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) what steps are being taken to reduce levels of Home Department if he will publish a summary of anti-social behaviour in (a) Tameside and (b) representations received by his Department from the Stockport. [279773] public on measures to tackle anti-social behaviour in the last five years. [280260] Mr. Alan Campbell: The latest available data on antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) covers the period 1 April Mr. Alan Campbell: Between 1 May 2004 and 30 1999 to 31 December 2006. Between 1 January 2006 April 2009, we received over 3,000 letters and e-mails and 31 December 2006, 225 ASBOs were issued at all regarding antisocial behaviour. Representations that courts in the Greater Manchester Criminal Justice System the Department has received on antisocial behaviour (CJS) area. Data on the number of ASBOs issued are cover a wide range of nuisances and to provide a not available below CJS area level. summary of these would entail disproportionate costs. The number of acceptable behaviour contracts (ABCs) is collected by the Home Office through a voluntary Antisocial Behaviour: East of England survey of crime and disorder reduction partnerships’ (CDRPs) use of antisocial behaviour tools and powers. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the The latest data published indicate that over 30,000 Home Department (1) if he will estimate the cost to the ABCs have been made between October 2003 and (a) economy and (b) public purse of anti-social September 2007, with over 5,150 issued in the north-west behaviour in each local authority area in the East of region during the same period. Currently, data on England region in the latest period for which figures the number of ABCs issued are not available below are available; [280227] regional level. 313W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 314W

We have provided practitioners with a toolkit to answer in substantive form on the ground of (a) tackle antisocial behaviour, which they operate according disproportionate cost and (b) the information sought to local priorities and a practitioner website and not being held centrally in each of the last five years. advice line. Specifically in Tameside and Stockport, [280716] multidisciplinary antisocial behaviour teams operate many initiatives based on prevention and enforcement Mr. Alan Campbell: I refer the hon. Member to the that engage, educate and promote awareness among answer from my right hon. Friend, the former Home young people, engage with residents and tackle antisocial Secretary (Jacqui Smith), on 2 June 2008, Official Report, behaviour in families. Stockport operates an antisocial column 729W. behaviour hotline where members of the public can call and report antisocial behaviour. These cases are then DNA: Databases allocated to one of the four ASB caseworkers to investigate and respond. Tameside were rated as an excellent four Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the star authority by the Audit Commission’s corporate Home Department how many DNA samples recovered assessment of the partnership’s work around tackling from crime scenes produced multiple matches when antisocial behaviour. checked against the national DNA database in the last Closed Circuit Television: Greater Manchester 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [272719] Mr. Alan Campbell: A total of 1,004 DNA profiles Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the taken from crime scenes and loaded to the National Home Department which towns in Greater Manchester DNA Database (NDNAD) between 1 May 2008 and 30 operate closed circuit television for the purposes of April 2009 matched against more than one subject crime prevention. [279859] profile. This equates to an average of 83.7 multiple matches per month over this 12 month period. Mr. Alan Campbell: This information is not held centrally. The SGM Plus profiling system looks at 10 areas within the DNA molecule and derives from these a Departmental Data Protection profile normally consisting of 20 numbers plus a sex marker indicating whether the person is male or female. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for With such a profile the likelihood of a random match to the Home Department how many breaches of security a person unconnected to the crime is a minimum of one have been reported at the (a) Criminal Records in a billion. Bureau, (b) Identity and Passport Service and (c) UK Biological material found at a crime scene will degrade Border Agency and its predecessors in the last five due to the effects of the environment, ultraviolet light, years; and what procedures each agency follows when a or bacteria, among other factors. There may be very breach of security involves the disclosure of personal little DNA in very small stains of biological material. In data. [276952] either case it may not be possible to produce a full DNA profile. In some cases, a partial profile may be produced Mr. Woolas: Except in exceptional cases, where it is in by the analysis of the DNA and in some cases no DNA the public interest, it has been the policy of successive profile at all would be obtained. A partial profile consists Governments not to comment on breaches of security. of fewer than the 20 numbers of a full SGM+ DNA The Home Office and agencies take all breaches of profile. A crime scene profile of eight numbers plus the security including unauthorised disclosure of personal sex marker would be sufficient to load to the DNA data, very seriously. The Home Office and agencies have database. measures/policies in place to prevent misuse or abuse of Evidence from such a partial profile may still be official systems and to detect it where it does occur. crucial, not least because of its ability to conclusively Unauthorised disclosures of personal data are both a eliminate people from an investigation. A match of a breach of security and a breach of the civil service code. person to such a partial profile carries significantly less The Home Office and agencies are committed to weight than a match to a full profile and it is quite investigating any such breaches and will deal with them possible that two or more people might have the same in the strongest manner. Depending on the circumstances partial DNA profile. The evidence presented to a court a range of sanctions are available including disciplinary will reflect this. The Crown Prosecution Service have action, and in extreme or persistent cases, termination made clear that in any case involving a DNA profile of employment/services and, if appropriate, criminal there must be appropriate supporting evidence before a proceedings. prosecution is initiated. The Security Policy Framework, the Data Handling Report and the National Information Assurance Strategy Driving Offences: Insurance produced by the Cabinet Office provide a strategic framework for protecting information that Government Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Secretary of State for the handle and put in place a set of mandatory measures Home Department how much his Department has spent which Departments must adhere to. on tackling the offence of driving without insurance in each of the last five years. [279594] Departmental Written Questions Mr. Alan Campbell: Enforcement of the offence is an Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the operational matter for individual chief officers of police. Home Department how many parliamentary questions They will decide on what allocation of their resources is for written answer his Department has declined to appropriate. 315W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 316W

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Secretary of State for the Family visit visas Home Department how many people were convicted of Number driving without insurance and one other or more offences Visas issued 11,772 in the last 12 months; and which were the five most common offences for which people were convicted together with driving without insurance during that period. Iran Applications 16,532 [279595] Visas issued 13,589

Mr. Alan Campbell: Data provided by the Ministry of China Applications 14,461 Justice on the findings of guilt at all courts for vehicle Visas issued 11,852 insurance offences in England and Wales, in 2007 (latest available) can be viewed in the table. Total applications 2004 229,775 Information on the number of people convicted of a mixture of offences is not separately published. Total visas issued 2004 153,919 Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. 2005 Findings of guilt at all courts for vehicle insurance offences in England and Wales 20071 India Applications 110,697 Total findings Visas issued 87,763 Offence type of guilt

Vehicle insurance offences: Nigeria Applications 64,122 Visas issued 35,415 Using motor vehicle uninsured against third 232,811 party risks Making false statements or withholding material 272 Pakistan Applications 63,561 information Visas issued 39,569 Other insurance offences (excluding fraud and 16,015 forgery) Sub-total 249,098 Ghana Applications 18,965 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Visas issued 8,839 and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by Iran Applications 18,142 the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Visas issued 14,461 taken into account when those data are used. Source: OCJR E&A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and Analysis China Applications 16,788 Unit), Ministry of Justice Visas issued 13,754 Entry Clearances: Families Total applications 2005 292,275 Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total visas issued 2005 199,801 Home Department how many family visitor visa applications were received from people in each of the 2006 six countries from which most applications were received India Applications 120,373 in each of the last seven years; and how many such visas Visas issued 100,195 were granted to people from each of those countries. [267569] Pakistan Applications 92,629 Mr. Woolas: The number of family visit (a) visa Visas issued 62,208 applications and (b) visas issued, in each of the top six countries by volume of applications, in each of the last Nigeria Applications 63,972 five calendar years, is shown in the following table. Visas issued 32,234 Reliable data for previous years are not held. Family visit visas China Applications 18,309 Number Visas issued 17,071 2004 India Applications 91,959 Iran Applications 18,295 Visas issued 73,562 Visas issued 16,577

Nigeria Applications 44,654 Sri Lanka Applications 15,377 Visas issued 26,104 Visas issued 12,766

Pakistan Applications 37,375 Visas issued 17,040 Total applications 2006 328,955 Total visas issued 2006 241,051

Ghana Applications 24,794 317W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 318W

Family visit visas Illegal Immigrants Number

2007 Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the India Applications 120,350 Home Department how many illegal immigrants were Visas issued 97,116 detained at their point of entry to the UK in each month of 2008; and how many were subsequently deported. [279623] Pakistan Applications 81,141 Visas issued 50,496 Alan Johnson: The following table outlines how many illegal entrants were detained at their point of entry to Nigeria Applications 56,172 the UK and subsequently removed or deported, during Visas issued 32,791 each month of 2008.

Total illegal China Applications 20,779 entrants Visas issued 19,211 Month detained at port Total removed Total deported

2008 Iran Applications 18,590 January 814 792 0 Visas issued 15,304 February 730 722 0 March 620 589 0 Bangladesh Applications 15,012 April 573 557 0 Visas issued 8,998 May 510 492 0 June 537 510 15 July 662 645 0 Total applications 2007 312,044 August 700 650 0 Total visas issued 2007 223,916 September 968 921 0 October 1,096 1,065 0 2008 November 963 949 0 India Applications 103,315 December 740 720 0 Visas issued 88,376 Total 8,913 8,612 15 1 Total figure is no greater than five. Pakistan Applications 65,486 Note: Visas issued 38,272 The data provided are based on locally-collated management information and are not subject to the detailed checks that apply for National Statistics. It is provisional and may be subject to change. Nigeria Applications 46,170 Visas issued 27,618 Immigration

China Applications 20,845 Visas issued 19,138 Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues to reduce levels of enforced Iran Applications 17,511 migration to the UK, with particular reference to (a) Visas issued 13,399 human rights abuses and (b) levels of inequality in Sri Lanka Applications 12,829 source countries. [253147] Visas issued 10,832 Mr. Woolas: I have regular discussions with the Home Total applications 2008 266,156 Secretary about controlling immigration to the United Total visas issued 2008 197,635 Kingdom. The foreword to the UK Border Agency business plan for 2009-12 was signed jointly by the Human Trafficking Secretary of State for the Home Department, the Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the Financial Secretary to Her Majesty’s Treasury, reflecting Department pursuant to the answer of 19 January the cross cutting nature of the Government’s work on 2009, Official Report, columns 1227-28W, on human immigration. I also meet regularly to discuss issues of trafficking, how many of those foreign nationals joint interest, with Ministers from across Government, convicted for human trafficking offences were deported including with colleagues from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) which leads on global on the completion of their sentence. [277238] human rights and the Department for International Mr. Alan Campbell: To date there have been 106 Development which leads for the UK in the fight against convictions for trafficking for sexual exploitation, five global poverty. for trafficking for forced labour and three for conspiracy Information on the Government’s work in this area is to traffick. Of these convictions recorded by the UK published in the FCO’s Annual Report on Human Human Trafficking Centre 25 people have been deported Rights which can be found at: with a further 35 having received recommendations for http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/pdf15/human-rights- deportation at the end of their sentence. 2008 319W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 320W

Immobilisation of Vehicles Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary (Jacqui Smith), wrote to my right hon. Friend Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the on 20 April 2009. Home Department which organisation will be responsible for the preparation of the code of conduct for vehicle John Barrett: To ask the Secretary of State for the immobilisation companies; and what standards his Home Department when the UK Border Agency’s Department expects to be included in the code. [280196] MPs’ Parliamentary Business Unit plans to reply to the hon. Member for Edinburgh West’s correspondence Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 16 June 2009]: of 13 May 2009 on his constituent Mrs. Florence The Home Office issued a consultation document on Kpakiwa. [279811] the “Licensing of Vehicle Immobilisation Businesses” on 30 April 2009. Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency wrote to the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/cons-2009-vehicle- hon. Gentleman on 12 June 2009. immobilisation/ The consultation closes on 23 July. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he plans to reply to the The Government’s preferred option is the compulsory letter to his predecessor of 29 April 2009 from the right licensing of vehicle immobilisation businesses by the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Security Industry Authority (SIA) which would require Florence Lolonyo Ami Kpodo. [280435] compliance with a compulsory code of practice. Subject to the outcome of the consultation, the Home Alan Johnson: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on Office will draft the code of practice with input from 16 June 2009. the SIA. The code is likely to include industry-wide standards for: Olympic Games 2012 a signage, including size and visibility; maximum penalties charged and payment methods; minimum time between immobilisation and removal; Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many full-time equivalent providing evidence that a parking infringement has taken members of staff in (a) his Department and (b) its place; associated public bodies are working on projects security and location of pound where vehicles are impounded; relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic and Games; how many of them are working on (i) project complaints and appeals policy. management, (ii) legacy planning, (iii) project oversight and (iv) financial oversight; and what plans he has for Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the future staffing levels in each case. [279823] Home Department what powers his Department expects the Security Industry Authority to have in respect of Mr. Hanson: There are currently 47.6 Home Office vehicle immobilisation. [280197] staff or equivalents engaged full time on aspects of the development of and planning for the London 2012 Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 16 June 2009]: Games. Roles are not specifically project based. Other The Home Office issued a consultation document on staff in the Home Office and its agencies, such as the the “Licensing of Vehicle Immobilisation Businesses” Serious Organised Crime Agency, are involved in Olympic- on 30 April 2009. related projects as part of their wider duties as required. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/cons-2009-vehicle- There are currently 144.37 full-time equivalent staff immobilisation/ from the Metropolitan Police and other police forces The consultation closes on 23 July. working on Olympic security. They are a mix of officers The Government’s preferred option is the compulsory and civilians engaged in operational, project and programme licensing of vehicle immobilisation businesses by the roles which also involve both financial oversight and Security Industry Authority (SIA). The details of the legacy planning. scheme will be decided after the consultation period has Staffing numbers in the Home Office, its agencies and ended. police forces will fluctuate according to the demands of Under these proposals, the SIA would be the regulator the programme and are kept under constant review. The with responsibility for approving applications from vehicle split of resources between these organisations may also immobilisation businesses. The SIA would also have change as a result of the formation of the Olympic powers of enforcement, similar to those which they Security Directorate in the Home Office involving the already have in relation to individual licences, including formal secondment of some staff from police forces and revocation or suspension of a licence, and prosecution. other agencies to the Home Office.

Members: Correspondence Overseas Students: Entry Clearances

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department when he expects to reply to the Home Department how many holders of student visas letter dated 5 January 2009 from the right hon. applied (a) successfully and (b) unsuccessfully for the Member for Manchester, Gorton on Mr. A. Hamid. right to remain in the UK in a category other than that [263655] of student in each of the last five years. [279318] 321W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 322W

Alan Johnson: The information requested is not held WOMEN AND EQUALITY centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Females: Protection Personal Records: Data Protection Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality what measures are in place to help women affected by Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the the no recourse to public funds rule. [279098] Home Department pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Epping Forest of 1 June 2009, Official Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 11 June 2009]: I Report, column 174W,on personal records: data protection, have been asked to reply. what the eight data fields of advance passenger information Currently there is no statutory support available for are that the e-borders system will capture [279620] women affected by the no recourse to public funds rule Alan Johnson: The e-Borders system requires carriers but the Government are working on a range of proposals to provide the data contained in the machine readable which will be announced shortly. zone (MRZ) of a passport. The eight data fields are: Name Date of birth NORTHERN IRELAND Nationality Gender Demos Travel document type State of issue Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Passport number Ireland what (a) private meetings and (b) public Passport expiry date. engagements Ministers in his Department have attended at which representatives from the think-tank Demos This information has been checked at the UK border were present in the last 12 months; and if he will make a for many years, e-Borders allows this check to take statement. [279494] place before travel into or out of the country. Police: Greater Manchester Mr. Woodward: During the last 12 months, no representatives from think-tank Demos were present at Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the any of the private meetings or public engagements Home Department what recent assessment he has Ministers attended. made of the effectiveness of neighbourhood policing schemes in (a) Tameside and (b) Stockport. [279775] Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers

Mr. Hanson: Neighbourhood policing provides high Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for visibility, reassurance policing in all communities in Northern Ireland how much has been claimed in England and Wales, including Tameside and Stockport, reimbursable expenses by special advisers in his Department establishing local priorities with local people by engaging in 2008-09 to date. [260360] with the community on the issues which matter most to them. There are four neighbourhood policing teams in Mr. Woodward: Costs incurred on reimbursable expenses Thameside Division and four teams in Stockport Division. in 2008-09 will be available only when the Department’s HMIC has inspected every force in England and resource accounts are fully audited and laid before Wales to assess their capabilities in delivering Parliament. This is expected to be before the 2009 Neighbourhood Policing and Developing Citizen Focus. summer recess. HMIC’s assessment is that all forces, including the Greater Manchester police who cover Tameside and Stockport, have met this standard. TREASURY Travel Restrictions Banks: Finance Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions his Department Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had with the US administration on the creation of what the expected exposure range for bad debt is in the list of foreign nationals barred from entry to the relation to the Asset Protection Scheme. [279978] UK, with particular reference to the inclusion of Michael Savage on that list. [279576] Kitty Ussher: As announced on 26 February, the Royal Bank of Scotland Group (RBS) agreed in principle Mr. Woolas: The Home Office did not consult the US to protect £325 billion of assets in the Asset Protection Administration about the creation of the list of foreign Scheme; and on 7 March Lloyds Banking Group (Lloyds) nationals who are excluded from the United Kingdom agreed in principle to protect £260 billion of assets on unacceptable behaviour grounds, which included US in the scheme. After the deduction of the first loss citizen, Michael Savage. However following publication (£42.2 billion and £35.2 billion respectively) that falls to of the list on 5 May, Home Office and FCO officials the participating banks, the Treasury will guarantee have discussed the Government’s policy on exclusion 90 per cent. of the remaining value (at 31 December with American officials. 2008) of the covered assets. 323W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 324W

The Treasury and its advisers are continuing to work In the case of Bradford and Bingley, the Treasury and with participating banks to conduct due diligence on the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) the assets intended for inclusion in the scheme. provided £18 billion of funding to enable all retail Further detailed information will be provided after deposits held in the bank to be transferred to Abbey. the final contracts are signed. Given that this funding replaced retail deposits, the rights of the Treasury and the FSCS in respect of the Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer proceeds of the wind-down and the realisation of Bradford what recent progress has been made in the implementation and Bingley’s assets rank above subordinated creditors, of the Asset Protection Scheme; and if he will make a in the same way that the rights of retail depositors statement. [279979] would have been senior to subordinated creditors. The Treasury also has a claim on the proceeds of the wind-down Kitty Ussher: The Treasury and its advisers are continuing as Bradford and Bingley’s sole shareholder. This claim to work with the participating banks to reach a final ranks below the claim of subordinated creditors, in the agreement on the terms and conditions of the Asset same way that it is usual for equity to rank below Protection Scheme (APS) and to conduct due diligence subordinated debt. on the assets intended for inclusion in the scheme. In Northern Rock’s case, the position of the Treasury The Government are in the process of recruiting a again reflects the normal credit hierarchy: the Government chief executive to run the new agency, the Asset Protection as senior creditor ranks above Northern Rock subordinated Agency, at arms length from the day-to-day business of bondholders while as shareholder the Treasury ranks the Treasury, and administer the APS on the taxpayer’s below such subordinated debt. behalf. Further detailed information will be provided after Council Tax: Costs the final contracts are signed. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Barnett Formula what steps his Department is taking to reduce the cost of administering council tax. [280409] Adam Price: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government plans to publish its factual Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I have been asked to reply. paper on the Barnett formula. [280247] The cost of administering council tax is a matter for local billing authorities. Mr. Byrne [holding answer 16 June 2009]: No decision has yet been made regarding the publication date of the Council Tax: Valuation factual paper on the Barnett Formula.

Bradford and Bingley Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 7 May 2009, Official Report, column 384W, Mr. Meale: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on council tax: valuation, what types of property data on what date Ministers in his Department asked are provided to the Valuation Office Agency by the departmental officials to draft proposals to take the Stamp Duty Office of HM Revenue and Customs. Bradford and Bingley Building Society into public [279799] ownership. [280083] Mr. Timms: The property data supplied by the Stamp Kitty Ussher: I refer the Member to the answer given Taxes Office to the Valuation Office Agency are all such to the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) on 10 data contained within the stamp duty land transaction March 2009, Official Report, column 257W. return, which is online at: http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kbroker/hmrc/forms/ Mr. Meale: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer viewform.jsp?formld=932 when the decision to take the Bradford and Bingley Building Society into public ownership was taken. Departmental Billing [280084]

Kitty Ussher: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr. Prisk: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer given to the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) how many and what proportion of invoices his Department on 27 January 2009, Official Report, column 365W. and its agencies paid within 10 days of receipt in each of the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Meale: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer [278828] for what reasons his Department determined that (a) bonds held by the Government in Bradford and Mr. Oaten: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Bingley would be ranked above Bradford and Bingley howmanydaysonaverage(a) his Department and (b) subordinated bondholders for settlement and (b) each of its agencies has taken to pay invoices from bonds held by the Government in Northern Rock suppliers in each month since November 2008. [278911] would be ranked below Northern Rock subordinated bondholders for settlement. [280085] Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent progress his Department has made in ensuring Ian Pearson: The position of the Treasury in respect that invoices for public sector contractors are paid of both banks reflects the normal credit hierarchy. within 10 days. [279981] 325W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 326W

Ian Pearson [holding answer 10 June 2009]: Since the Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Government’s commitment announced in October 2008 which departments have an agreement with his Department to pay invoices within 10 days, the Treasury Group’s permitting the use in accounts of EU receipts to offset performance against the target, including the number of expenditure; and from what date each such agreement invoices processed and the number of days taken to pay came into operation. [280407] is shown in the following table. Treasury Group invoice payment performance November 2008 Ian Pearson: The Consolidated Budgeting Guidance to May 2009 sets out the budgeting treatment for receipts from Percentage of the EU. Invoices paid invoices paid Average Para 3.52 states: within 10 within 10 working days Month1 working days working days to pay “Income from the EC may be netted off Resource Budget DEL if it is in support of DEL spending and if it supports November 854 88 10 current expenditure.” 2008 The Consolidated Budgeting Guidance can be found December 2008 883 93 6 at: January 2009 796 89 7 http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ February 2009 893 95 6 consolidatedbudgeting_guidance200910.pdf March 2009 1,117 93 6 April 2009 801 87 8 Geographical Information Systems: Procurement May 2009 686 87 9 1 Payment performance for invoices received by Treasury Group organisations within each calendar month. Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer which companies have been awarded the contracts Employment Tribunals Service under OGC.buying solutions contract tender Reference RM 341, on geographic information services and solutions; and which public bodies are purchasing Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer geographical information under the contracts. [279801] how many actions under employment law have been brought against his Department in each of the last three Ian Pearson: Suppliers awarded contracts under Buying years; how many such actions were brought under each Solutions’ contract tender references RM 341 Geographic category of action; and how many such actions were Information Services and Solutions can be found at contested by his Department at an employment tribunal. http://www.buyingsolutions.gov.uk/frameworks/ [277423] full.html?list_by=name&contract_search=GISS&search=search The public bodies currently using the GISS framework Kitty Ussher: It is the Treasury’s policy not to release to purchase GI services and data are: data on staff where to do so could lead to the identification of individuals, including aggregated data relating to Lot 1: Geographic Information Solutions fewer than five staff members. CEH Wallingford (Centre for Ecology and Hydrology) In each of the last three financial years there have Centre of Ecology and Hydrology been fewer than five industrial tribunal cases. Cheshire Police Authority Consumer Focus EU Grants and Loans: Wales Cumbria Constabulary Department for Communities and Local Government Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Department for Work and Pensions how much has been received by the UK from the EU Department of Agriculture and Rural Development under the Objective One and Convergence Programmes Devon and Cornwall Constabulary Fund in respect of Wales in each year from 1999-2000. Electoral Commission [280213] English Heritage Environment Agency Mr. Byrne: Receipts from the EU under the Objective External Supply Group, DWP One and Convergence Programmes Fund in respect of Government Communications Planning Directorate Wales are paid by the Commission to the Welsh Assembly Government. Programmes are agreed between the HM Revenue and Customs Commission and the Welsh Assembly Government. London Ambulance Service NHS Trust National Offender Management Service Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer NHS Connecting for Health what proportion of monies received from the EU as Office of Government Commerce part of Objective One and Convergence Programme Renfrewshire Council funding in Wales has been transferred to the Welsh South Yorkshire Police Authority Assembly Government in each year since 1999-2000. Lot 2: Map Making Services [280215] Ministry of Defence CinCFIeet Lot 3: Data Capture, Analysis and Manipulations Services Mr. Byrne: All monies received from the EU as part of the Objective One and Convergence Programme Animal Health funding in Wales are paid by the Commission to the Department for Communities and Local Government Welsh Assembly Government. Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs 327W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 328W

Environment Agency Housing: Finance HM Revenue and Customs Loch Lomond and The Trossachs National Park Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer South Cambridgeshire District Council how much of the package for housing announced in the 2009 Budget is to be funded from (a) bringing forward budgets from future years, (b) the Consolidated Fund, Government Departments: Capital Investment (c) public borrowing and (d) other means. [272506]

Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the Ian Pearson: The policy decisions made at the Budget Exchequer what estimate he has made of the proceeds are set out in Chapter A of the Budget document. The from asset and property sales available to Departments 2009 Budget announced a £500 million fund for England for accounting in their capital budgets in the next to stimulate housing development in the short-term and boost capacity in the house building industry in the five years. [279257] long term. This includes £100 million in funding for local authorities to deliver new energy efficient social Mr. Byrne: Estimates of central Government asset housing and £400 million to unlock currently stalled sales up to 2010-11 can be found in the ‘Budget 2009: housing developments. The package is funded through the economy and public finances—supplementary material’, additional borrowing none of which has been brought on table 2.3. This is available at forward from future budgets. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/Budget2009/ bud09_econfinances_968.pdf Housing: Valuation The Operational Efficiency Programme reported at Budget 2009 on areas for potential future Government asset sales. The full report can be found at Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/oep_final_report Official 210409_pu728.pdf Brentwood and Ongar of 3 February 2009, Report, column 1006W, on the Valuation Office: South Estimates of proceeds available to Departments after East, (1) if he will rank each individual locality 2011-12 will be provided at future fiscal events. reference in each valuation area in the East Midlands As set out in the Consolidated Budgeting Guidance, according to its value significance; [279882] the current budgeting framework is designed to ensure (2) pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for that most proceeds from fixed asset sales are made Meriden of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column available to Departments. This is set out in sections 7.20 1043W, on council tax: valuation, if he will rank each to 7.25 of the Consolidated Budgeting Guidance, available individual locality reference in each valuation area in at the West Midlands according to its value significance. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ [279883] consolidatedbudgeting_guidance200910.pdf Mr. Timms: A list of locality reference numbers, ranked in order of value significance by valuation area Government Departments: Procurement within the Valuation Office Agency’s West Midlands Group, has been placed in the Library. The list is based Justine Greening: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on data extracted between 27 February 2009 and what progress has been made towards implementation 2 March 2009. of the recommendations in the May 2009 review Information that identifies the extent and location of Operational Efficiency Programme: collaborative each locality, relative to the list of numbers that ranks procurement (a) to empower commercial directors in each individual locality, is commercially confidential. Government departments to agree targets for uptake of collaborative strategies for each non departmental public Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer body and executive agency within their department, (b) pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden for review groups to monitor the collaborative procurement of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1043W, on performance of Government departments and (c) for council tax: valuation, what the average number of Office of Government Commerce to (i) agree a Government dwellings is in each locality group in England. [279884] eProcurement policy, (ii) expand the contracts database and (iii) perform an investment appraisal for a central Mr. Timms: On 11 June 2009, the average number of eAuction Centre of Excellence. [279780] dwellings per locality group in England was 5,809.

Mr. Byrne [holding answer 15 June 2009]: A Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer supplementary report to the Operational Efficiency how many domestic property transaction records the Programme Final Report, explaining how the collaborative HM Revenue and Customs Stamp Duty Office procurement recommendations will be delivered, was provided to the Valuation Office Agency in 2008-09. published on 13 May 2009, and is available at: [280038] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ vfm_operational_efficiency.htm Mr. Timms: The total number of transactions received Actions are under way to address all of the from the Stamp Taxes Office between 1 April 2008 to recommendations and progress will be published in the 31 March 2009 was 979,510 of which approximately autumn pre-Budget report. 90 per cent. (881,559) are domestic transactions. 329W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 330W

Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands Jim Knight: I have been asked to reply. The following table shows the median and mean Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer gross household income for the household types requested. what (a) proposals he has considered and (b) discussions he has had on amendment of the lower rate of income Median and mean gross unequivalised household income (£ per week), for various household types, United Kingdom, 2007-08 tax in the last nine months; and if he will make a Gross unequivalised household statement. [279975] income Mr. Timms: Treasury Ministers and officials receive Household type Median Mean proposals and have discussions with a wide variety of Two working age adults and 770 1,034 organisations in the public and private sectors, as part two children of the process of policy development and delivery. As One working age adult and 329 384 was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the two children Government’s practice to provide details of all such One working age adult and 290 354 discussions. one child Two working age adults and 619 n/a Local Government: Pensions four children Two working age adults, 740 939 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer either with or without whether the deficit in the Local Government Pension children Scheme counts towards national public sector debt. One working age adult, 330 429 [273600] either with or without children Mr. Byrne: Public sector net debt is compiled by the n/a = Not available independent Office for National Statistics and is drawn Notes: These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income from the National Accounts. It does not reflect any (HBAI), sourced from the Family Resources Survey. surplus or deficit in the individual funds constituting Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be the Local Government Pension Scheme. Communities affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. and Local Government publishes amalgamated Local The reference period for HBAI figures is single financial years. Government Pension Scheme statistical data on their The income measure used here is unequivalised, i.e. it has not been adjusted for household size and composition. This is because the website and details can be found at the following address: groups requested are based on household size and composition, and http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/stats/ in this specific instance, equivalisation would cloud the comparison pensions.htm between household types. This means that the statistics presented are Details on the individual local government pension on a different basis to those in the HBAI publication. Median household incomes are less affected by outliers, and are funds can be found at the following address: therefore generally more commonly used in analysis of incomes. http://www.cipfa.org.uk/panels/pensions/download/ In particular, the sample size for households containing two working 2007_LGPS_Valuation_Survey_Results.pdf age adults and four children is relatively small, so estimates for this group are subject to a higher degree of sampling error than the other Northern Rock groups presented. This particularly affects the mean, where no robust estimate can be produced. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Gross incomes have been presented. The HBAI publication looks at what the most recent timetable is for repayment of net disposable incomes Before and After Housing Costs. While the statistics cover individuals who are of working age, not all loans advanced to Northern Rock. [279980] individuals will be working. Source: Ian Pearson: The Government announced on Households Below Average Income, 2007-08 23 February of this year that in order to enable Northern Rock to undertake increased levels of new lending, the Pregnant Women: Grants bank will be restructured so that the back book of mortgages is managed separately to its other business. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Chancellor of the The Government also announced at the time that Exchequer how many health in pregnancy grants have they will increase the loan to Northern Rock and extend been disbursed. [279211] the repayment schedule. The Government are continuing to work with Northern Rock to finalise the details of Mr. Timms: From its introduction on 6 April 2009 the restructuring, based on achieving maximum value and up to 30 April, HM Revenue and Customs disbursed for the taxpayer and with a view to creating a viable 80,000 Health in Pregnancy grants. Data after this date entity for sale at a later date. Further details will be are not yet available. published once a final plan has been agreed. Public Expenditure Personal Income Mr. Spring: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the change in (a) what the (a) median and (b) mean gross household current, (b) capital and (c) all public expenditure in income was for a household comprising (i) two real terms between 2011-12 to 2013-14. [279711] working age adults and two children, (ii) one working age adult and two children, (iii) one working age adult Mr. Byrne [holding answer 16 June 2009]: Over 2011-12 and one child, (iv) two working age adults and four to 2013-14, public sector current expenditure (PSCE) is children, (v) two working age adults and (vi) one set to grow at an average of 0.7 per cent. a year in real working age adult in the latest 12 month period for terms, and public sector net investment (PSNI) will which information is available. [278272] move to 1.25 per cent. of GDP by 2013-14. 331W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 332W

Public Expenditure: Wales Mr. Timms: Both national insurance contribution refunds and inheritance tax repayments are processed Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in line with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) what publication sets out the Government’s budgeting departmental objective 2, i.e. 80 per cent. of cases to be rules for EU receipts in respect of Wales. [280205] cleared within 15 working days and 95 per cent. to be cleared within 40 working days. These targets were met Mr. Byrne: The Government’s budgeting rules regarding in 2008-09. EU receipts in respect of Wales are set out in the All repayments due for capital gains tax are made Statement of Funding Policy published by the Treasury under the self assessment system. Refunds made from in October 2007. online self assessment returns are normally made within seven days. For paper returns HMRC identify returns Public Finance on receipt marked ‘repayment’ and process these as priority. HMRC seek to strike a balance between issuing Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the repayments as quickly as possible for the benefit of Exchequer when he plans to publish the next long-term customers and ensuring Exchequer protection. public finance report. [279255] Valuation Office: Northern Ireland Land and Property Mr. Byrne: As set out in Budget 2009, the next Services long-term public finance report will be published in 2009. Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Public Sector: Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1049W,on the Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the Valuation Office: Northern Ireland Land and Property Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 2 April 2009, Services, if he will place in the Library a copy of Official Report, columns 1390-91W, on public sector minutes of the (a) 47th, (b) 48th and (c) 49th meetings. pensions, what estimate he made of the cost to his [279796] Department of calculating a revised estimate of the potential net saving in employer costs for the pension Mr. Timms: A copy of the minutes of the 49th schemes for the NHS, teachers and Civil Service over meeting of the Steering Committee on Harmonisation the 50-year period. [276661] (Practice and Procedure) England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland will be Mr. Byrne: Revised estimates of capitalised savings, placed in the Library. such as were calculated in 2005 before scheme reforms were fully developed, are not available and could be For the minutes of the 47th and 48th meetings I refer provided only at disproportionate cost. the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave the hon. The packages of reforms vary considerably between Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on 19 May 2009, schemes, as will the effects on employer pension Official Report, columns 1369-70W. contributions and payments of pension benefits. Detailed questions about the financial effects are for the Departments Valuation Office: Video Recordings responsible for the schemes. Regional Economic Council Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Valuation Office Agency has produced any Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer video films under its e-learning programme relating to pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for council tax valuations. [279900] Meriden of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1046W, on the Regional Economic Council, what the name of each local government representative is. Mr. Timms: No. [279791] Welfare Tax Credits Ian Pearson: Local authorities are represented at the Regional Economic Council by the Chair of the Local Government Association and by regional representatives Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer nominated by the Local Government Association. These how many tax credit awards were modified or changed representatives are drawn from members of the LGA, in-year from their original calculation in 2007-08. but are selected in advance of each meeting. It is not, [279733] therefore, possible to list members names. Revenue and Customs: Standards Mr. Timms: The specific information requested is available only at disproportionate cost. However, HM Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Revenue and Customs processed more than 14 million what target has been set in respect of the time taken by items as change of circumstances between 1 April 2007 HM Revenue and Customs to process a claim for (a) a and 31 March 2008. The changes may not necessarily National Insurance contribution refund, (b) an have led to a change in the calculation of a tax credit inheritance tax refund and (c) a capital gains tax award, while some awards may have changed more than refund; and what the (i) average and (ii) maximum time once. This figure includes the processing of change of taken to process such a claim was in the latest period circumstances notifications and changes made following for which figures are available. [278868] some IT upgrades. 333W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 334W

DEFENCE Intake Aircraft type Number Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Multi Engine 40 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Total 130 what percentage of the mandated target for bottled Intakes are Into Productive Service flows, personnel water holdings is held in Afghanistan. [279946] flowing from untrained to trained strength. Bill Rammell: The volume of bottled water currently Outflow held in Afghanistan as at 11 June 2009 is 110 per cent. Aircraft type Outflow Percentage rate of the minimum mandated stock holding. Fast Jet 60 7 Rotary Wing 40 6 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Multi Engine 70 9 how many incidents of (a) theft and (b) vandalism Total 160 8 have been reported in relation to British military supplies during transit from the port of debarkation in Outflows are of all pilots, including ranks of Wing Pakistan to the final destination in Afghanistan in each Commander and above who are classified as belonging month in 2009 to date. [279961] to the General Duties branch, and therefore not all will be flying aircraft when they leave the service. Bill Rammell: There have been no incidents of theft Rates are a percentage of average trained strength as or vandalism reported on British military supplies during at 1 April for relevant three years. transit from the port of debarkation in Pakistan to the final destination in Afghanistan during 2009. Air Force: Military Aircraft Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Pakistani military personnel are (a) Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence assigned, (b) attached and (c) embedded with UK how many cannibalisations of each type of RAF military forces in Regional Command South. [279962] aircraft there have been in (a) each year since 2005 and (b) the last 12 months. [279952] Bill Rammell: There are currently no personnel from the Pakistani armed forces assigned, attached or embedded Mr. Quentin Davies: The information requested covers with UK armed forces in Regional Command (South). a large number of aircraft and will take some time to collate. I will write to the hon. Member when this work Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State is complete. for Defence what arrangements there are for the training of RAF pilots in air-to-air refuelling techniques before Armed Forces: Foreigners Tornado GR4s deploy to Afghanistan. [280000] Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Bill Rammell: All RAF crews deploying on Op Herrick if he will estimate the cost of making retrospective are fully combat ready. Combat ready aircrew training wage payments to (a) Commonwealth soldiers and (b) for the Tornado GR4 includes full training for air-to-air soldiers of other nationalities who served in the British refuelling. armed forces between 1947 and 2004 to make their earnings equivalent to those of UK service people. Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence [280272] pursuant to the answer of 9 June 2009, Official Report, column 828W,on Afghanistan: peacekeeping operations, Mr. Kevan Jones: All non-British personnel now serving what his estimate is of the number of troops likely to be in the British armed forces have exactly the same pay required by Regional Command South in October 2009. arrangements as UK personnel and there are currently [280077] no plans to undertake a retrospective review. It has long been the policy of successive Governments not to implement Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Troop levels within Regional changes to pay policy retrospectively, a policy that has Command (South) are a matter for ISAF. been applied across the public sector in the United Kingdom. Accordingly, no estimate has been made of Air Force: Manpower the cost of retrospective treatment in either case, and to do so would involve disproportionate cost. Additionally, Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pay records are kept for seven years before destruction, what the (a) inflow and (b) outflow rate was of RAF so individual cases could not be assessed beyond the pilot crew for each aircraft type in the most recent last seven years. Given the number of personnel involved period for which figures are available. [279957] the costs would be significant.

Bill Rammell: The following table shows intakes and Armed Forces: Housing outflows of RAF pilots (three year average to FY2007-08). Intake Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Aircraft type Number for Defence how much has been spent on upgrading Fast Jet 40 accommodation for serving personnel and their Rotary Wing 50 families in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland since 2000. [274599] 335W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 336W

Mr. Kevan Jones: I will write to the right hon. and Mr. Quentin Davies: 1,124 Urgent Operational learned Member with the information requested because Requirement armoured vehicles have been ordered since it is not held centrally and will take more time to collate July 2006. As at 12 June 2009, 444 had been delivered to and verify. UK Land Forces. The breakdown by type is as follows: Substantive answer from Kevan Jones to Menzies Campbell: Ordered since DeliveredtoUK Vehicle July 2006 Land Forces In my answer of 12 May 2009 (Official Report: Column 432W) I promised to provide you with details on how much has been Warthog 115 0 spent on upgrading accommodation for serving personnel and Talisman Mastiff 2 24 0 their families in the UK and Scotland since 2000. Talisman Buffalo 14 0 The following was spent upgrading Service Family Accommodation Talisman high 13 4 (SFA) in Great Britain (GB) in each financial year since 2001-02, mobility excavator the latest year for which figures are available. (HMEE) Ridgback 157 57 FY GB (£ million) Mastiff 274 190 2001-02 25.3 Vector1 138 178 2002-03 25.5 Wolfound 97 0 2003-04 35.5 Husky 262 0 2004-05 18.1 Cougar 30 15 2005-06 32.4 Total 1,124 444 2006-07 16.4 1 Vector -138 vehicles have been ordered since July 2006; In addition 2007-08 16.9 to this figure 60 were ordered in June 2006, and these are reflected in the delivery column. 2008-09 35.5 Army: Defence Equipment Of which, the following was spent upgrading SFA in Scotland: Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if FY Scotland (£ million) he will place in the Library a copy of the Army’s latest [279959] 2001-02 3.7 Total Fleet Requirement document. 2002-03 0.3 Bill Rammell: A copy of the latest Army Total Fleet 2003-04 0.2 Requirement, from 2006, was placed in the Library of 2004-05 0.2 the House in January 2008. This remains the extant 2005-06 3.1 version. 2006-07 3.4 2007-08 1.0 Ex-servicemen: Suicide Armoured Fighting Vehicles Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will commission further research on (a) the incidence what percentage of each armoured vehicle type is (a) of suicide among former service personnel and (b) the fit for operations, (b) in limited role, (c) awaiting merits of psychological autopsies in cases of suicide spares and (d) not operational for other reasons. among such personnel. [278836] [279947] Mr. Kevan Jones: The Department presently has no Mr. Quentin Davies: This information is not held in plans to commission research into the incidence of the format requested and could be provided only at suicide among veterans, including psychological autopsies. disproportionate cost. We do however take a close interest in the health of Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) those leaving the services. In 2003, the Department what percentage of vehicles of each type in the commissioned Kings College, London, to undertake a armoured vehicle fleet has been cannibalised in each of study of the health outcomes for some 20,000 personnel the last 12 months; [279953] deployed to Iraq or in a non-deployed comparator group. This includes analysis of mental health outcomes (2) how many vehicles of each type in the armoured which so far shows that generally there is not a higher vehicle fleet have been cannibalised in each of the last incidence of mental health problems among those deployed. (a) 12 months and (b) four years. [279954] We will continue to monitor carefully the research, Mr. Quentin Davies: This information is not held in which has now been extended to cover in addition the format requested and could be provided only at personnel deployed to Afghanistan. In addition, scrutiny disproportionate cost. I refer the hon. Member to the of international peer reviewed literature takes place answer the right hon. Member for Coventry, North-East when it is published. (Mr. Ainsworth) gave him on 28 January 2008, Official Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft Report, column 33W. Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State how many urgent operational requirement armoured for Defence what the (a) freight and (b) passenger vehicles of each type have been (a) ordered since July capacity is of (i) the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft 2006 and (b) delivered to UK Land Command. and (ii) each commercial air-to-air service provider. [279956] [280002] 337W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 338W

Mr. Quentin Davies: The Future Strategic Tanker Mr. Quentin Davies: “In Service” has been taken to Aircraft was selected in competition and uses a fleet of mean the effective fleet which covers all aircraft barring modified Airbus A330 aircraft to achieve the technical those which are redundant, declared as surplus or awaiting and military capability requirements. disposal. The freight capacity is 43 tonnes, or 136 cubic metres. “Fit for Purpose” aircraft are those in the forward The passenger capacity is 291. fleet ie available to Front Line Commands for operational There are no commercial air-to-air service providers and training purposes (including those that are classed with approval to operate on the UK civil or military as “short term unserviceable”) that are considered capable aircraft registers with which to make a comparison. of carrying out their planned missions on a given date. The number of helicopters “Fit for Purpose” varies Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State from day to day due, primarily, to routine maintenance for Defence what the fuel off-load capacity is of (a) the requirements. Therefore, the figures in the table are Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft and (b) each averages for May 2009: commercial air-to-air service provider. [280060] In-Service1 Fit for Fit for Mr. Quentin Davies: The Future Strategic Tanker Helicopter type/ (effective Purpose— Purpose— Aircraft (FSTA) is required to deliver a capability measured mark fleet) target actual2 through operational analysis against war fighting scenarios. The capacity of the individual aircraft is therefore of Augusta 109 4 2 3.3 secondary importance to its capability, and the fleet has Apache 67 18.1 14.0 been sized to meet the operational requirement. No Chinook 40 19.0 18.4 direct comparison can be made with another aircraft. Mk2/2a Additionally, there are no commercial air-to-air service Gazelle 42 15.4 20.1 providers with approval to operate on the UK civil or Lynx Mk3/ 61 26 26.4 military aircraft registers. Mk8 Lynx Mk7/9 94 35.0 23.0 The maximum fuel capacity is 111 tonnes. The fuel offload capacity is related to the radius of action, Merlin Mk1 42 20 14.1 Merlin Mk3/ 28 12.4 10.7 aircraft fuel consumption and the time on station at the Mk3a refuelling location. For FSTA this fuel capacity relates Puma 34 17.5 15.9 to a standard sortie scenario of 500 miles radius of Sea King 25 17 10 action, 140 minutes on station and a fuel offload of Mk3/3a 60 tonnes to 20 different receiver aircraft. Sea King 42 18.0 16.2 Military Aircraft Mk4/6 Sea King Mk5 15 7.5 7.4 Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Sea King Mk7 13 6.5 5.9 for Defence what trials his Department has undertaken 1 As at 1 June 2009 with commercial air-to-air refuelling service providers 2 Averages for May 2009 in the last three years; and what assessment he has Operational capability is measured in terms of flying made of the results of those trials. [280001] hours rather than the number of airframes available. All rotary wing operational requirements are currently being Mr. Quentin Davies: The Ministry of Defence has met. undertaken no trials with private sector air to air refuelling service providers in the last three years. A commercial Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence service has been used by the RAF in the US, under what plans his Department has for the replacement of extant bilateral arrangements with the US Military but the Royal Navy’s fleet of Lynx helicopter at the end of this was not a formal trial. its service life. [280087]

Mr. Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Quentin Davies: The Wildcat will replace the for Defence what recent assessment he has made of the current Army and Royal Navy Lynx helicopter fleets airworthiness of the (a) TriStar and (b) VC10 fleets. from 2014 and 2015 respectively. [280066] Mr. Quentin Davies: RAF TriStar and VC10 aircraft Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence are designed and certified to strict airworthiness and what the monetary value is of his Department’s contract safety standards. The structural integrity of the aircraft for the upgrade of Puma helicopters; and if he will is maintained by adherence to the procedures detailed make a statement. [280088] within military airworthiness regulations. The review of airworthiness and safety of the aircraft is a routine and Mr. Quentin Davies: No contract for the upgrade of continual activity.It includes a comprehensive maintenance the Puma helicopters has been placed. and repair process that covers routine flight servicing Military Bases before and after each flight. Military Aircraft: Helicopters Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the estimated (a) market value and (b) area is of Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (i) DCSA Inskip, Preston, (ii) RAF Church Fenton, how many helicopters are in service in the armed Tadcaster, (iii) RAF Syerston, (iv) RAF Watton, forces; and what the (a) target and (b) actual number (v) TAC Worcester, (vi) Vauxhall Barracks, Didcot, of each type of helicopter fit for purpose is. [279950] (vii) Aldershot Garrison, (viii) RAF High Wycombe, 339W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 340W

(ix) HMS Daedalus, Gosport and Fareham, (x) Anzio However, it is our practice not to release the estimated Barracks, Leek, (xi) HMS Forest Moor, Harrogate, (xii) sale value of surplus sites as to do so might influence RAF West Raynham, (xiii) RAF Newton, (xiv) RAF the market. Alconbury, (xv) RAF Halton, Wendover, (xvi) RAF The MOD’s long-term Defence Estate Development Brize Norton, Bicester, (xvii) DMC Dean Hill, West Plan (DEDP), which can be found on the MOD internet Dean, (xviii) RAF Chilmark, Salisbury, (xix) Connaught at Barracks and (xx) Roussillon Barracks; and which of http://www.defence-estates.mod.uk/publications/dedp08.php these sites is (A) redundant (B) expected to become redundant. [280444] classifies the Department’s sites in three categories; core, retained, or disposal estate. Mr. Kevan Jones: The potential market value of sites The other requested information for the sites listed is is usually only assessed when they become surplus. as follows:

Surplus to defence Expected to become surplus to requirements (yes/no/ defence requirements (yes/no) Estimated disposal area Site name part) and estimated date if known (hectares) Comment

DCSA Inskip No No — — RAF Church Fenton Part — 13 Technical site for disposal (13.45 ha) RAF Syerston No No — — RAF Watton Sold in part 1998 — — Technical areas sold airfield retained for Training purposes TAC Worcester No — 0.15 Site will be sold to facilitate town centre redevelopment, subject to reprovision Vauxhall Barracks No tbc 10 — Aldershot Garrison Part — 163 50 per cent. for disposal at present (Aldershot Urban extension) to be followed by further tranche in about 3 years RAF High Wycombe No No — — HMS Daedalus Sold 2005 — — — Anzio Barracks Sold 2006 — — — HMS Forest Moor Part — 8 Admin area for disposal RAF West Raynham Sold 2006 — — — RAF Newton Yes — 136 Technical area sold 2005. Airfield surplus and subject to sale to Crown Estate RAF Alconbury Part — 414 Technical areas occupied by USVF. Airfield held via Joint Venture for future disposal and development RAF Halton Part — 1 Former Officers’ Mess for disposal RAF Brize Norton No No — — DMC Dean Hill Part — 15 Majority sold- two areas available (13 ha and 2 ha) RAF Chilmark Yes — 27 Balance of site for disposal Connaught Barracks Sold 2007 — 24 Sold to HCA Rousillon Barracks Sold 2007 Yes-tbc 0.7 Majority sold to HCA—but further tranche awaited.

Nigeria: Military Aid management of military operations and effective in-shore small boat patrolling in the Niger Delta. To take this forward the MOD is supporting the development of a Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Joint Maritime Security Training Centre at a military Defence whether the UK provides military aid to site close to Lagos. A range of courses are being offered Nigeria. [279778] to individuals, units and HQs, leading to a common doctrine with a strong theme throughout of respect for Bill Rammell: The UK has provided military aid to the rule of law and human rights. Nigeria since UK/Nigeria Bilateral Defence Relations were re-established in 2001. MOD engagement with Nigeria is restricted to advice and support, implemented Nimrod Aircraft through a small team comprising our defence adviser; a British military advisory and training team; and a liaison Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence officer to the Economic Community of West African how many Nimrod MRA4 aircraft his Department States (ECOWAS) Secretariat. plans to procure in the next three years. [279937] Following a meeting between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and President Yar’Adua in July Mr. Quentin Davies: We currently have a contract to 2008, we have developed a focussed package of training procure nine Nimrod MRA4 aircraft in the next three assistance to the Nigerian armed forces to improve years. 341W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 342W

Radioactive Waste: Waste Management Table 1: Liquid radioactive waste discharged during 1977-1993 under agreement with Her Majesty’s Industrial Pollution Inspectorate Year Radioactivity Discharges in GBq Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much liquid radioactive waste has been 1983 Total Activity 0.110 discharged into the sea loch at Faslane in each year (excluding tritium) since it first hosted Polaris nuclear submarines; and 1982 Total Activity 0.055 whether he has received recent representations from the (excluding tritium) Scottish Environmental Protection Agency on the 1981 Total Activity 0.040 (excluding tritium) matter. [272723] 1980 Total Activity 0.211 (excluding tritium) Mr. Quentin Davies: Officials are currently in the 1979 Total Activity 0.012 process of collating the information held by the Department; (excluding tritium) I will write to the hon. Member once this work is 1978 Total Activity 0.016 complete. (excluding tritium) Substantive answer from Quentin Davies to Dai Davies: 1977 Total Activity 0.100 (excluding tritium) In my answer of 12 May 2009 to your Question (Official Report: Column 753W), I undertook to write to you regarding Table 2: Liquid radioactive waste discharged during 1994-2008 under how much liquid radioactive waste has been discharged into the agreement with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency sea loch at Faslane in each year since it first hosted Polaris. Year Radioactivity Discharges in GBq Resolution Class submarines, which carried Polaris, operated out of Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde at Faslane from 1967. 2008 Alpha 0.000 Information regarding liquid discharges for the period 1967-76 is 2008 Beta Activity 0.019 not held. The information relating to liquid radioactive waste 2008 Colbalt-60 0.005 discharged into the sea loch at Faslane since 1977 is provided at 2008 Tritium 72.830 Annex A. 2007 Alpha 0.000 It may be helpful if I put this information into context. 2007 Beta Activity 0.013 Between 1967-93 the discharge level set by Her Majesty’s Industrial Pollution Inspectorate was a total radioactivity limit of 37 2007 Colbalt-60 0.003 Gigabecquerels (GBq), excluding tritium. Since 1994 the agreement 2007 Tritium 66.400 with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) has 2006 Alpha 0.001 included tritium and has required the information to be broken 2006 Beta Activity 0.006 out into the different nuclide groups. The liquid radioactive 2006 Colbalt-60 0.003 discharge limits since 1994 are as follows: 2006 Tritium 121.000 Alpha Activity: 0.200 GBq 2005 Alpha 0.002 Beta Activity: 0.500 GBq 2005 Beta Activity 0.013 Cobalt-60: 0.500 GBq 2005 Colbalt-60 0.003 Tritium: 1000.000 GBq 2005 Tritium 115.000 As you can see from the figures, the total liquid radioactive 2004 Alpha 0.002 discharges into the sea at Faslane have not exceeded the limits set 2004 Beta Activity 0.005 by the regulatory authorities, and in all cases are significantly 2004 Colbalt-60 0.007 below the limits; I can confirm that SEPA have not made any 2004 Tritium 47.900 recent representations on the matter. 2003 Alpha 0.015 I hope this information is useful. 2003 Beta Activity 0.003 Annex A 2003 Colbalt-60 0.008 Table 1: Liquid radioactive waste discharged during 1977-1993 under 2003 Tritium 93.700 agreement with Her Majesty’s Industrial Pollution Inspectorate 2002 Alpha 0.002 Year Radioactivity Discharges in GBq 2002 Beta Activity 0.035 2002 Colbalt-60 0.009 1993 Total Activity 0.055 (excluding tritium) 2002 Tritium 78.156 1992 Total Activity 0.037 2001 Alpha 0.002 (excluding tritium) 2001 Beta Activity 0.001 1991 Total Activity 0.110 2001 Colbalt-60 0.030 (excluding tritium) 2001 Tritium 39.710 1990 Total Activity 0.084 2000 Alpha 0.002 (excluding tritium) 2000 Beta Activity 0.008 1989 Total Activity 0.032 2000 Colbalt-60 0.010 (excluding tritium) 2000 Tritium 64.000 1988 Total Activity 0.030 (excluding tritium) 1999 Alpha 0.002 1987 Total Activity 0.046 1999 Beta Activity 0.010 (excluding tritium) 1999 Colbalt-60 0.004 1986 Total Activity 0.085 1999 Tritium 69.400 (excluding tritium) 1998 Alpha 0.008 1985 Total Activity 0.tM6 1998 Beta Activity 0.020 (excluding tritium) 1998 Colbalt-60 0.022 1984 Total Activity 0.240 1998 Tritium 42.500 (excluding tritium) 1997 Alpha 0.017 343W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 344W

Table 2: Liquid radioactive waste discharged during 1994-2008 under CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT agreement with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency Year Radioactivity Discharges in GBq Arts: Apprentices

1997 Beta Activity 0.008 1997 Colbalt-60 0.055 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many apprenticeships in the 1997 Tritium 72.800 creative industries have been taken up since his Department’s 1996 Alpha 0.018 publication of its Creative Britain document. [279531] 1996 Beta Activity 0.178 1996 Colbalt-60 0.087 Mr. Bradshaw [holding answer 12 June 2009]: Since 1996 Tritium 198.000 the publication of Creative Britain, 400 apprenticeships 1995 Alpha 0.014 have started on frameworks associated with the creative 1995 Beta Activity 0.311 industries. These include the Creative Apprenticeships 1995 Colbalt-60 0.203 and the Quality Assurance Games Testing. 1995 Tritium 93.900 This figure does not include apprentices working in 1994 Alpha 0.019 the creative industries on non-creative apprenticeships. 1994 Beta Activity 0.115 The National Apprenticeship Service will be able to 1994 Colbalt-60 0.064 calculate this information from September. 1994 Tritium 113.000 Note: Gambling: Internet Figures have been rounded to three decimal places. Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for RAF St. Athan Culture, Media and Sport if he will refer the matter of the establishment of a sports right for online betting operators to the new expert panel on sports betting. Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for [280145] Defence whether construction work has been started at St. Athan military academy; when the work is expected Mr. Sutcliffe: The expert panel on sports betting will to be completed; and how much (a) has been spent be established very soon and I will announce the chair and (b) is planned to be spent on the project in each and members shortly. The panel’s terms of reference year of the project. [280162] will examine all practical measures to further the overall objective of reducing the risk of corruption in British sport and will include a number of areas that I want Bill Rammell: Construction at the St. Athan site is them to focus on specifically. It is up to the chair, in expected to begin shortly after contract award for the discussion with the panel members, to decide on the Defence Training College, which is anticipated to be other areas to examine. signed in the summer of 2010. However, some site I have also been clear that the issue of integrity clearance and demolition work is expected to take place should not necessarily be linked to any proposed sports to prepare the site before contract signature. The right. Therefore I have not referred this for the panel’s construction of the Defence Training College is expected consideration at this stage. to be completed by 2014. Leisure Facilities: Finance Estimated construction costs for the first five years of the contract are provided in the following table. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Cost (£ million) Media and Sport what financial assistance his Department has provided for the redevelopment of leisure centres in 2010-11 112.5 each local authority area in each of the last three years. 2011-12 200.7 [280271] 2012-13 265 2013-14 156.1 Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England has advised that it does 2014-15 37.8 not hold information on financial assistance given to individual leisure centres in each local authority area covering the last three years because it does not categorise Weapons: Lost Property data in this way. The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Local Broadcasting: Radio Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many weapons of each type have (a) been stolen and (b) gone missing from armed forces Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, bases in each year from 1997 to 2004. [280292] Media and Sport what recent assessment his Department has made of the (a) economic viability and (b) social contribution of local radio. [279293] Bill Rammell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 16 November 2005, Official Report, column Mr. Simon [holding answer 12 June 2009]: Following 1244W, by my hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans the Interim Digital Britain Report, my Department (Mr. Touhig) to the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew commissioned an independent review of the localness Rosindell). regime which regulates local content on radio. This 345W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 346W review also considered the current economic viability Sports: Milton Keynes and social contribution of local radio. The report undertaken by John Myers, ″An Independent Review of Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the Rules Governing Local Content on Local Radio″ is Culture, Media and Sport how much funding he plans available on my Department’s website to provide for sport in Milton Keynes in 2009-10. www.culture.gov.uk. [280346] Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department has allocated Sport England £135.7 million of Exchequer funding in 2009-10. Olympic Games 2012: Football Sport England has targets to get one million people doing more sport by 2012-13, and to make a major Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, contribution to the delivery of the five hour sports offer Media and Sport if he will make an assessment of the for children and young people. Milton Keynes will likely effect on (a) women’s and (b) disabled people’s benefit, alongside every area of England, from Exchequer football of fielding a football Team GB at the London and Lottery investment by Sport England in 2009-10 in 2012 Olympics. [276099] support of these targets. In addition Sport England have advised that there are Mr. Bradshaw: The fielding of women’s and paralympic a number of initiatives to support participation in sport GB football teams would provide a unique opportunity in Milton Keynes: to showcase and strengthen the women’s and disabled (i) Free swimming games, from the grass roots through to the elite. Milton Keynes unitary authority has opted in to the As the host nation, a women’s and a disabled team U16 and Over 60 Free Swimming Programme and has would automatically qualify. The Government would received £196,525 (£46,740 for pot 1 and £149,785 for like to see the best possible teams taking part to provide pot 2) in this regard. The local authorities that have Team GB with every opportunity to achieve the ambitious opted to offer the scheme to both age groups have also medal targets for the Paralympic and Olympic games in received a share of a £10 million capital fund to spend 2012, and to provide inspiration to the next generation on modernising or improving pool provision. Milton of those taking part in women’s and disabled football. Keynes received £68,116. Those local authorities that will offer free swimming to both age groups also stand to benefit from a further Sports: Greater Manchester £25 million capital challenge fund in both 2008-09 and 2010-11 to spend on improving pool facilities. Milton Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Keynes has been awarded: Culture, Media and Sport how much funding he plans £180,000 towards the modernisation of Middleton Pool; to provide for sport in Denton and Reddish £60,985 towards the modernisation of Wroughton Leisure constituency in 2009-10. [279771] Centre; and £200,000 towards the Stantonbury Campus Pool Modernisation Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department has allocated Sport Project. England £135.7 million of Exchequer funding in 2009-10. (ii) Sport Unlimited Sport England has targets to get one million people Sport Unlimited is an integral part of the Government’s doing more sport by 2012-13, and to make a major PE and Sport Strategy for Young People (PESSYP). contribution to the delivery of the five hour sports offer The overall aim of Sport Unlimited is to increase for children and young people. Denton and Reddish opportunities for Children and Young People aged five constituency will benefit, alongside every area of England, to 19 to participate regularly in sport. from Exchequer and Lottery investment by Sport England In Milton Keynes, approximately £38,464 is currently in 2009-10 in support of these targets. assigned this financial year to deliver projects across the In addition, Sport England have advised that the city. following initiatives support participation in sport in (iii) Step into Sport Denton and Reddish constituency. Step into Sport focuses on young people aged 14 to (i) Free Swimming 19, giving them opportunities to become involved in Stockport Metropolitan borough council has signed sports leadership and volunteering and encouraging up to Pot 1 of the free swimming programme, free them to continue this into later life. swimming for the over-60s, and has been awarded £88,472 The programme is funded by the Department of in this regard. Culture, Media and Sport as part of the PESSYP Tameside Metropolitan borough council has also strategy, which is revitalising PE and school sport across signed up to Pot 1 and has been awarded £60,929. the country. Step into Sport in Milton Keynes has been awarded £5,500. (ii) Sport Unlimited Sport Unlimited is an integral part of the Government’s PE and Sport Strategy for Young People. The overall ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE aim of Sport Unlimited is to increase opportunities for Carbon Emissions Children and YoungPeople aged five to 19 to participate regularly in sport. Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for This project is in its second year (2009-10) of delivery. Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has In Denton and Reddish approximately £8,750 will be made of the implications for his Department’s policies put into Sport Unlimited activities during 2009-10. of an increase in EU carbon reduction targets. [265835] 347W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 348W

Joan Ruddock [holding answer 23 March 2009]: The inherited 17 Fast streamers from BERR and 30 from levels of the first three carbon budgets, covering 2008-12, DEFRA. The total number of fast streamers currently 2013-17 and 2018-22, were approved by Parliament in working in DECC is 47. May. These require a reduction in UK greenhouse gas Fuel Poverty emissions by over 22, 28 and 34 per cent. against 1990 levels respectively. The budgets have been set in line with the independent Committee on Climate Change’s Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for advice and with our emissions reduction targets under Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he the EU 2020 Climate and Energy package. has made of the likely effect of the application of the In the summer, the Government will present a Climate provisions of the Climate Change Act 2008 on levels of and Energy Strategy to Parliament, which will set out fuel poverty. [270906] our proposals and policies to meet the carbon budgets, in the context of our overall programme for delivering Joan Ruddock: The Government are committed to secure low-carbon energy, transport and housing. tackling fuel poverty, and have spent £20 billion on fuel poverty benefits and programmes since 2000. The fuel The EU has committed to a 20 per cent. greenhouse poverty implications of the Climate Change Act will gas emissions reduction target by 2020, increasing to depend on the specific policies to deliver the carbon 30 per cent. by 2020 as part of a comprehensive global budgets and to mitigate fuel poverty. In the summer, the deal. The Government will amend the carbon budgets Government will lay a report before Parliament on a following such a global deal and once proposals on package of policies and proposals for meeting the first sharing out the new EU target are agreed. three carbon budgets, as part of an Energy and Climate Change Strategy. This will include an assessment of the Climate Change overall impact of the package on fuel poverty. An initial estimate of the possible impact was contained in the Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for first report of the Committee on Climate Change, published Energy and Climate Change when he plans to appoint on 1 December 2008, and the Government’s Impact a permanent Director General for National Climate Assessment of the EU Climate and Energy Package Change and Consumer Support. [280354] and proposed carbon budget levels, published on 22 April 2009. Joan Ruddock: Phil Wynn-Owen has been appointed as Director General, National Climate Change and Fuel Poverty: North West Consumer Support. Phil joined the Department on 15 June 2009. Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 20 May Departmental Data Protection 2009, Official Report, column 1481W, on fuel poverty, what the reasons are for the relatively high number of James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for fuel poor households in the North West; and whether Energy and Climate Change how many notifications his his Department has any region-specific programmes in Department made to the Information Commissioner in place to rectify the situation. [278049] the year ended 30 April 2009 in respect of the loss or mishandling of personal information or data; what was Joan Ruddock [holding answer 11 June 2009]: In notified in each such case; and how many individuals 2006, the latest year for which fuel poverty estimates are were the subjects of personal information or data in available, 14.2 per cent. of households in the north-west respect of which such notifications were made. [278725] were fuel poor. In England as a whole, in the same period, 11.5 per cent. of all households were fuel poor. Joan Ruddock: Under the mandatory requirements Table 1 refers. of the Data Handling Report published on 25 June Table 1: Fuel Poverty figures, 2006, by Government office region 2008, DECC is required to give a summary report on Percentage of fuel Number of fuel poor data breaches reported to the Information Commissioner Government office poor households in households in region in our annual resource accounts. region region (thousand) We will be publishing information on personal data North East 16.4 179 security breaches reported to the Information Commissioner North West 14.2 415 for the 2008-09 reporting year before Parliament rises in West Midlands 13.7 304 July. The information is currently being compiled and is East Midlands 12.9 236 to be audited and verified before it is laid before Parliament. Yorks and Humber 12.7 273 South West 11.6 256 Departmental Manpower East England 9.7 224 South East 8.5 291 Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for London 8.3 254 Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of England 11.5 2,432 19 November 2008, Official Report, column 628W, on departmental personnel, how many Civil Service fast Fuel poverty is caused by the interaction of three streamers are in post in his Department. [280332] things: income, fuel prices and energy efficiency. Therefore, households with low income or very high energy bills Joan Ruddock: DECC was formed from the Climate are more prone to being fuel poor. In 2006, average Change Directorates from DEFRA and the Energy household income for households in the north-west was Group from what was then BERR, now BIS. DECC below that of England as a whole, while the average 349W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 350W energy efficiency rating, as measured by SAP (Standard Renewable Energy: Housing Assessment Procedure) was similar to that for England overall. The combination of national programmes such as Mr. Breed: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Warm Front, CERT and Decent Homes and local and Climate Change what financial incentives his programmes and delivery through local government, Department provides to encourage the (a) construction partnerships, energy suppliers, Eaga and NEA (such as and (b) adaptation of homes to incorporate (i) renewable Warm Zones and CEEF) are all important in tackling energy technologies and (ii) sustainable building materials. fuel poverty across England. Government do not direct [278873] programmes to specific areas but the Community Energy Saving Programme (CESP) programme to be launched Joan Ruddock: The Government play an important this autumn is proposed to take place in areas of the role in providing incentives to increase take-up of small lowest income decile as measured in the Indices of scale renewable on-site energy technologies. These Multiple Deprivation. technologies have a key role to play in meeting our 2020 renewable targets, and will be essential in achieving our Lighting: East of England legally binding 2050 target to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 80 per cent. Presently, the main sources of financial Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for support for these technologies come from the Low Energy and Climate Change how much funding his Carbon Buildings Programme (LCBP) and the Carbon Department has allocated to the encouragement of Emissions Reduction Target (CERT). usage of light emitting diode variety light bulbs in (a) Mid Bedfordshire constituency and (b) the East of The LCBP is an £86 million capital grant programme England since it was established; and if he will make a supporting households, communities and the public statement. [278849] sector to install small scale onsite energy technologies. A further £45 million was allocated to the programme Joan Ruddock: The Government have not allocated in Budget 2009, bringing total funding to £131 million. funding specifically to the east of England to encourage The programme aims to demonstrate how energy efficiency the use of light emitting diodes (LEDs). However, we and onsite energy technologies can be combined in a recognise the potential that LED lighting can offer and range of buildings to reduce carbon emissions. the Energy Saving Trust is funding a number of trials in To incentivise the installation of microgeneration social housing communal areas, of which one is in under CERT, the scheme provides suppliers with a Suffolk. Businesses are also encouraged to invest in ring-fenced market transformation option which allows efficient lighting solutions, including LEDs where them to achieve up to 12 per cent. of their overall CERT appropriate, through the Enhanced Capital Allowance target by promoting measures for which there is not yet scheme. In addition, the Government are working with a developed market. To further incentivise microgeneration, NHS trusts through the Forward Commitment process suppliers may increase this market transformation ring-fence to challenge the industry to develop lighting efficiency. by a further 2 per cent. by promoting microgeneration measures; suppliers receive a 50 per cent. uplift in their Members: Correspondence carbon score within the ring-fence for this.

Sir Michael Spicer: To ask the Secretary of State for The LCBP and CERT have made an important Energy and Climate Change when he plans to reply contribution to developing a market for low-carbon to the letter from the hon. Member for West small-scale generation in the UK. However, we fully Worcestershire, dated 28 April 2009, on an emissions acknowledge that we need to go much further if we are to meet our long-term goals. That is why we included performance standard for power generation. [279440] powers in the Energy Act 2008 to introduce feed-in Joan Ruddock [holding answer 12 June 2009]: I apologise tariffs (FITs) for small-scale low-carbon electricity for the delay in responding and will do so shortly. generation (up to a maximum limit of 5 megawatt capacity) through changes to electricity distribution Olympic Games 2012 and supply licences. We are currently working to develop recommendations on the design of the mechanism, Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for including the tariff levels and the period during which Energy and Climate Change how many full-time they will apply, the detail of which we will consult on equivalent members of staff in (a) his Department and this summer. We have committed to have feed-in tariffs (b) its associated public bodies are working on projects in place in April 2010. relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Powers in the Energy Act also enable a Renewable Games; how many of them are working on (i) project Heat Incentive (RHI) to be set up. The powers allow the management, (ii) legacy planning, (iii) project oversight RHI to provide financial assistance to generators of and (iv) financial oversight; and what plans he has for renewable heat, and producers of renewable biogas and future staffing levels in each case. [279816] biomethane. The incentive payments will be funded by a levy on suppliers of fossil fuels for heat. Our aim is to Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate make the RHI as accessible, flexible and user-friendly as change is not directly involved in the management of possible to potential investors in renewable heat at all any Olympics projects but the Department and its advisers scales, from domestic to industrial. We are currently take part in discussions with the relevant authorities on working to develop the main features of the RHI scheme, a range of issues involving the supply of energy and which we will consult on towards the end of this year, materials for the site and the games. and aim to have the RHI in place by April 2011. 351W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 352W

In terms of renewable building materials, we provide It is not possible to provide details of public engagements funding and support for research and dissemination of attended by DFID Ministers at which Demos technology development and information. This Department representatives were present without incurring has part-funded the Renewable House at the Building disproportionate costs. Research Establishment in Watford which showcases renewable construction technologies on a domestic scale. Mr. Watson: Toask the Secretary of State for International The Government also encourage the use of sustainable Development whether his Department has any contracts materials through tightening of Building Regulations. with the think-tank Demos. [279499] Significantly, we have made a commitment that all new homes must be zero carbon from 2016. To support this Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for International ambition the Government launched the Code for Development (DFID) does not have any contracts with Sustainable Homes, which rates a home on a ‘whole Demos. house’ basis with a one to six star rating. The code scores new properties against nine categories, which, in Departmental Press addition to use of sustainable materials, include energy, water, waste and ecology. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State The code is voluntary for private sector builders for International Development what (a) newspapers however, if Government are funding the development, and (b) periodicals are delivered to the private office of or if the development is being built on Government each Minister in his Department; and at what cost in land code level 3 must be attained. Homes built to this the latest period for which figures are available. standard must have a 25 per cent. improvement in [279422] energy efficiency over current Building Regulations, which may require the inclusion of renewable energy Mr. Michael Foster: The following newspapers and generation, and will include the use of materials with a periodicals were delivered to the private offices of the lower environmental impact. Department for International Development’s four Ministers in May 2009: Daily Express (one copy) INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Daily Mail (three copies) Daily Mirror (one copy) Balkans: Poverty Daily Telegraph (three copies) Financial Times (four copies) Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Glasgow Herald (one copy) Development what recent estimate he has made of the The Scotsman (one copy) extent of poverty in (a) Kosovo and (b) other Balkan The Guardian (four copies) countries; and if he will make a statement. [279612] The Independent (two copies) The Sun (one copy) Mr. Michael Foster: The World Bank’s October 2007 The Times (three copies) “Kosovo Poverty Assessment Report” estimated that approximately 45 per cent. of the population in Kosovo The Economist (four copies) live below the national poverty line, and 15 per cent. of Spectator (one copy) the population is considered extremely poor. A further Foreign Affairs (one copy) 18 per cent. are seen as vulnerable to poverty. Private Eye (one copy) Kosovo is the poorest region in the Balkans. The Evening Standard (one copy) Department for International Development (DFID) The total cost for this period was £567.74. also works in Bosnia and Herzegovina where 18.2 per cent. of the population is reported as living in relative Developing Countries: Health Services poverty (World Bank, 2007), and in Serbia where the official government poverty figures for 2006 stood at 8.8 per cent. Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) what assessment his Demos Department has made of the effectiveness of the World Bank’s health, nutrition and population support for poor people in developing countries from 1997 to 2008; Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what (a) private meetings [280245] and (b) public engagements Ministers in his Department (2) what assessment his Department has made of the have attended at which representatives from the think-tank effectiveness of the World Bank’s health programmes Demos were present in the last 12 months; and if he will in developing countries between 1997 and 2008. make a statement. [279498] [280217]

Mr. Douglas Alexander: In the past 12 months, the Mr. Michael Foster: The World Bank’s role in health, Minister of State for International Development nutrition and population between 1997 and 2007 was (Mr. Thomas) had one meeting with Demos on 12 May recently evaluated by the Bank’s Independent Evaluation 2009 on joint departmental business with the Department Group (IEG) whose report was published in April. The for Business, Innovation and Skills. No other DFID evaluation provided a self critical look at World Bank Ministers have held private meetings with Demos. support to health and we agreed with its key findings 353W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 354W that Bank health programmes had achieved mixed results. Kosovo: Unemployment The Department for International Development (DFID) has not undertaken a separate assessment. Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International The Bank is committed to improving its performance Development what recent estimate he has made of in health, nutrition and population. The Bank’s Health, levels of unemployment in Kosovo; and if he will make Nutrition and Population Strategy published in 2007 a statement. [279609] sets a strong direction and is already helping to address several of the weaknesses identified by the IEG’s evaluation. Mr. Michael Foster: The Statistical Office of Kosovo (SOK) lists the 2005 total unemployment rate as Kosovo: HIV Infection 41.4 per cent., with 83.7 per cent. of those considered to be long-term unemployed. The unemployment rate for Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International women is 60.5 per cent. However, Kosovo’s statistical Development what recent estimate he has made of the systems remain in an early stage of development and prevalence of (a) HIV/AIDS and (b) tuberculosis in therefore data are subject to a high degree of uncertainty. Kosovo; and if he will make a statement. [279611] The Department for International Development (DFID) has supported the Statistics Office of Kosovo to develop Mr. Michael Foster: HIV prevalence is very low in a National Statistics Development Strategy which is Kosovo. The National Institute of Public Health in now being implemented. Kosovo (NIPH) stated that there were 67 HIV positive people in 2006. However, with a very young population, South Ossetia: Overseas aid high unemployment and increases in drug use, Kosovo presents an environment where HIV infection could increase rapidly. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for International The tuberculosis notification rate in Kosovo remains Development what recent assessment he has made of high compared to other Balkans countries but the trend the humanitarian situation in South Ossetia; and what has been downwards. Although there was a slight rise in plans his Department has for the delivery of humanitarian 2005 to 52 cases per 100,000 people, the number of new aid to South Ossetia. [279206] cases in that year was half the number reported in 2001. Mr. Michael Foster: A Department for International Kosovo: Infant Mortality Development (DFID) monitoring mission in February 2009 reported that the humanitarian situation in South Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Ossetia appeared to have stabilised and that the remaining Development what recent estimate he has made of (a) internally displaced persons (IDPs) in Georgia were infant and (b) maternal mortality rates in Kosovo; and living in more acceptable humanitarian conditions. However, if he will make a statement. [279610] with the exception of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), humanitarian organisations are Mr. Michael Foster: Health statistics in Kosovo are still hampered in their ability to access conflict-affected not reliable. Nevertheless, the figures available for Kosovo areas despite assurances that unfettered access would be point to health indicators among the worst in Europe, granted. despite the positive downward trend since 2000. DFID has so far provided £4 million to provide The United Nations Children Fund (UNICEF) quotes humanitarian assistance to the people of the region and the infant mortality rate for Kosovo as between 35 and is continuing to monitor the situation. We are also 49 per 1,000 live births. For maternal mortality, the UN supporting UK conflict prevention activities through a Development Programme (UNDP) reported a rate of regional Conflict Prevention Pool which is jointly managed 6.9 per 100,000 births in 2005. with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence. Kosovo: National Income Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what his latest estimate is of Kosovo’s (a) Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for gross national income and (b) average earnings per International Development what humanitarian aid (a) head of population; and if he will make a statement. his Department, (b) the EU and (c) the UN has [279613] delivered to the Tamil people in Sri Lanka in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [280304] Mr. Michael Foster: Kosovo’s statistical systems remain in an early stage of development and all data are Mr. Michael Foster: The information is as follows: therefore subject to high degree of uncertainty. Estimates for gross national income and average earnings per (a) Over the last 12 months the Department for International head are not available. However, the International Monetary Development (DFID) has allocated £12.5 million of humanitarian aid to Sri Lanka. Of this approximately £6 million remains to Fund (IMF) estimated that in 2007 Kosovo’s gross respond rapidly to further needs on the ground and for early national disposable income per capita was ¤1,845. This recovery when the displaced population are able to return home. is projected to increase to ¤2,053 per capita in 2009, All of DFID’s humanitarian funding to Sri Lanka is channelled though may have to be adjusted depending on the through impartial humanitarian agencies. impact of the global economic crisis. The gross domestic (b) For 2009 the European Commission Humanitarian Office product per capita was listed as ¤1,611 for 2007 and (ECHO) has pledged US$ 3.952 million for humanitarian aid for ¤1,837 for 2009. victims of conflict in the north and east of Sri Lanka. 355W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 356W

(c) The UN has received contributions of US $155,122,669 for the UN Consolidated Humanitarian Action Plan (CHAP) 2009 Total programme centre spend for Sri Lanka. This includes contributions for both UN and Financial year (£ million) non-governmental organisations. 2003-04 19.4 2004-05 21.4 2005-06 14.0 WORK AND PENSIONS 2006-07 8.4 2007-08 9.6 Connexions 2008-09 12.3

Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many referrals from Jobcentre Plus Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to Connexions services were made (a) in the 2007-08 and Pensions what the budget for programme centre academic year and (b) in the latest period for which provision was in 2008-09; and what budget has been set figures are available. [254185] for (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12. [271703]

Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Jim Knight: The budget for programme centre provision Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. for 2008-09 was £16.7 million and the estimated expenditure, Member with the information requested. pending audit was £12.3 million. Letter from Mel Groves: The total budget for programme centre provision in The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question 2009-10 is £23.7 million. This figure includes the budget asking how many referrals from Jobcentre Plus to Connexions of £13 million for new provision for newly unemployed services were made (a) in the 2007-08 academic year and (b) at the (non-professional) support delivered by programme centres. latest date for which figures are available. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Budgets for years from 2010-11 onwards have not yet Executive of Jobcentre Plus. been set. Jobcentre Plus does not record information about the number of customers it refers to Connexions. Jobcentre Plus refers young people to Connexions where it is appropriate, for example, most Disability Living Allowance 16 and 17 year olds claiming a Jobcentre Plus benefit are required to register and attend at Connexions as a condition of their claim. All other referrals between Jobcentre Plus and Connexions are Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for made on a more informal and voluntary basis where a Jobcentre Work and Pensions how many people in (a) England, Plus adviser believes that Connexions are better placed to provide (b) Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland are the help required. claiming disability living allowance; and at what Departmental Pay estimated cost in 2009-10. [280143]

Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jonathan Shaw: Information regarding Northern Ireland and Pensions how many staff employed in London on is a matter for the Northern Ireland Office. work contracted out by her Department earn less than £7.45 per hour. [273878] The information is not available in the format requested. The available information is in the following table. Jim Knight: The number of staff employed in London Disability living allowance: cases in payment, November 2008, and on work contracted out by the Department for Work estimated cost in 2009-10 and Pensions who earn less than the London Living Disability living wage of £7.45 is 673. allowance, cases in Estimated cost in payment, November 2009-10 cash prices, Departmental Responsibilities Country 2008 (Thousand) (£ billion) England 2,451 9.2 Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Scotland 329 1.3 and Pensions what expenditure her Department has Wales 237 0.9 incurred in the provision of programme centres, Notes: excluding expenditure on New Deal programmes, in 1. Cases in payment are caseload totals. These show the number of each of the last 10 years. [271699] people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. The latest available data is presented here. Jim Knight: Expenditure incurred in the provision of 2. Expenditure is forecast for Great Britain only and not for individual programme centres excluding expenditure on New Deal countries. Estimated costs have been derived by applying estimated programmes in each of the last 10 years is as follows: country shares to forecast Great Britain spending in 2009-10. Forecast Great Britain spending is at Budget 2009. Estimated out-turn country Total programme centre spend shares for 2008-09 are the average of country shares of spending at Financial year (£ million) August and November 2008. Sources: 1999-2000 30.8 1. Cases in Payment: Department for Work and Pensions Information 2000-01 29.9 Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. 2. Estimated Cost: Budget 2009 expenditure forecast distributed 2001-02 18.6 across countries in line with estimated out-turn for 2008-09, using 2002-03 16.1 statistical estimates for August and November 2008. 357W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 358W

Employment Schemes Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the cost Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to her Department of the Jobcentre Plus Support and Pensions what plans she has had to review the contracts in each of the next three years. [271706] scheme for providing businesses with recruitment subsidy via Jobcentre Plus. [278477] Jim Knight: Current estimates are shown in the following table: Jim Knight: The Policy Studies Institute has been commissioned by DWP to undertake an independent £ million evaluation of the entire six month offer of extra support 2009-10 8 for jobseekers, of which the recruitment subsidy is one 2010-11 24 element. Findings will inform understanding of the 2011-12 12 operation and effectiveness of the recruitment subsidy. The first published report from the evaluation will be These figures are based on assessments made prior to available in December 2009. the 2009 Budget. The Jobcentre Plus Support Contract As we do for all our initiatives, the Department will is currently half way through a two stage procurement continue to monitor the recruitment subsidy and in process. Detail on the breakdown of funding was set light of this, and information emerging from the evaluation, out in the Pre Qualifying Questionnaire (PQQ) information. will make any necessary adjustments to the recruitment Funding levels can be adjusted by DWP to reflect subsidy. increased or decreased volumes. Employment Services: Finance Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people have applied for a work trial placement in each of the last six months. [278851] Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what budget her Department has allocated Jim Knight: Information on the number of people for (a) new provision for newly unemployed (non- who have applied for a work trial in each of the last six professional) support delivered by programme centres months is not available. This is because customers do and (b) support for newly unemployed professional not, in the commonly accepted sense, ‘apply’ for a work and executive customers in 2009-10. [271704] trial. A work trial may be arranged by Jobcentre Plus if, at the end of the normal recruitment process for a Jim Knight: The total budget allocated for (a) new current vacancy, either the employer or customer (or provision for newly unemployed (non-professional) support both) has any lingering doubts about suitability. delivered by programme centres and (b) support for newly unemployed professional and executive customers Information on the number of work trial starts in in 2009-10 is £17.0 million (£13.0 million for contracted each of the last six months is available and is shown in one-day seminars and £4 million for Jobcentre Plus the following table. Group information sessions and follow-up interviews) Number of work trial starts in each of the last six months and £3.0 million respectively. From December 2009 Month Number of starts provision for newly unemployed (non-professional) support will be delivered via the new Jobcentre Plus Support December 2008 1,961 Contracts and therefore a proportion of this budget will January 2009 2,057 be used to fund the new contracts from this date. February 2009 2,572 March 2009 3,077 Employment Tribunals Service April 2009 2,366 May 2009 3,580 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Source: and Pensions how many actions under employment law BOXI Management Information have been brought against her Department in each of the last three years; how many such actions were Employment Services brought under each category of action; and how many such actions were contested by her Department at an Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work employment tribunal. [277424] and Pensions whether Jobcentre Plus Support contracts will replace (a) new provision for newly unemployed Jim Knight: Our records show the following actions (non-professional) support delivered by programme centres under employment law in the Employment Tribunal and (b) support for newly unemployed professional brought against the Department for Work and Pensions and executive customers. [271705] (including Jobcentre Plus) in England, Wales and Scotland in each of the last three years: Jim Knight: The Jobcentre Plus Support Contract is 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2007 planned to commence in December 2009. It will replace 252 cases in total, of which: the new provision for newly unemployed customers (non professionals). Support arranged for newly 78 were settled unemployed professionals will not be affected by this 112 were withdrawn by the Claimant or dismissed by the change. Approximately 15-20 per cent. of the overall Tribunal budget for the period December 2009 to March 2010 17 were won by the Department at hearing for support contracts is expected to be spent on support 5 were lost (i.e. findings against the Department) at hearing for the newly unemployed. 28 were struck out 359W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 360W

1 where advice was given Table 1: Employment tribunal claims against DWP for period 5 are ongoing; and 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2007 6 outcomes which are unknown/unrecorded Claims 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 Wrongful dismissal 295 cases in total of which: Unrecorded 6 90 were settled 106 were withdrawn by the claimants or dismissed by the Tribunal Multiple claims 62 23 were won by the Department at hearing Total 252 3 were lost (i.e. findings against the Department) Table2: Employment Tribunal claims against DWP for period 23 were struck out 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 Claims 1 multiple claims was part won/part lost; 49 claims are ongoing Single Claim 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 Age Discrimination 22 255 cases in total of which: Breach of contract — Constructive dismissal 3 35 were settled Disability Discrimination 110 45 were withdrawn by the Claimant or dismissed by the Tribunal Dismissal — 11 were won by the Department at hearing Equal Pay 4 6 were lost (i.e. findings against the Department) Flexible working — 8 were struck out Health and Safety 1 1 in which advice was given; and Misconduct — 149 claims are still ongoing Part time workers—less 2 favourable treatment Tables 1, 2 and 3 show the breakdown of the claims Protected disclosure — against the Department during the requested reporting Race Discrimination 6 period by category. Where an action involved more than Redundancy 0 one type of claim (for example, unfair dismissal and Religion or belief— 0 discrimination) this has been recorded as a “multiple” discrimination claim. Right to be accompanied — Table 1: Employment tribunal claims against DWP for period Sex Discrimination 13 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2007 Sexual Orientation— 1 Claims discrimination Trade Union activities 5 Age Discrimination Unfair dismissal 33 Breach of contract 1 Unauthorised deductions from 4 Bullying and Harassment 1 wages Change of working hours Unpaid wages — Constructive dismissal 10 Victimisation 3 Disability Discrimination 91 Working Time Regulations/ — Dismissal 1 Holiday Pay Equal Pay 1 Wrongful dismissal — Flexible working 1 Unrecorded — Grievance Time of work 4 Health and Safety 1 Unlawful requirement to make 3 payment to employer Part time workers—less 1 favourable treatment Protected disclosure 1 Multiple claims 81 Race Discrimination 5 Total 295 Redundancy Table 3: Employment Tribunal claims against DWP for period Religion or belief— 1 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 discrimination Claims Right to be accompanied 2 Sex Discrimination 9 Single claims Sexual Orientation— 2 Age Discrimination 8 discrimination Breach of contract 1 Trade Union activities 3 Constructive dismissal 4 Unfair dismissal 50 Disability Discrimination 64 Unauthorised deductions from 2 Equal Pay — wages Flexible working 1 Unpaid wages Health and Safety — Victimisation Part time workers—less — Working Time Regulations/ 1 favourable treatment Holiday Pay Protected disclosure 1 361W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 362W

Table 3: Employment Tribunal claims against DWP for period In addition, we are also looking into using other government 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 departments premises to house some of our work. For example Claims Land Registry premises are being considered nationally to accommodate some of our back of house functions. The site at Race Discrimination 7 Crownhill in Plymouth offers us potential for up to 400 seats. The Redundancy 1 proposed work to be relocated to this site includes the Fraud Religion or belief— 2 Investigation Service, Security Advisers, Learning and Development discrimination and Local Employment Partnerships work. Use of these alternative Right to be accompanied — premises will free up floor space in both Jobcentres to expand customer-facing services in both Plymouth and Devonport. Sex Discrimination 12 Sexual Orientation— — We are using a number of partners’ premises to conduct a discrimination range of customer-facing activity. For example, Picquet Barracks in Devonport is going to be used to support the forthcoming Trade Union activities 5 Princess Yachts redundancies. New claims and some review meetings Unfair dismissal 47 will take place in this location for Princess Yacht customers and Unauthorised deductions from 18 these premises will be available in the short term for any other wages redundancies. Unpaid wages 1 We have also reviewed the staffing levels in Plymouth, and have Victimisation — recently recruited eight new members of staff for Plymouth Working Time Regulations/ 1 Jobcentre and 12 for Devonport at administration level. These Holiday Pay new staff will be involved in conducting new claims interviews for Wrongful dismissal — Jobseeker’s Allowance customers and subsequent fortnightly jobsearch reviews. An additional recruitment exercise is underway to recruit Unrecorded 2 advisers to conduct Work Focussed Interviews and periodic reviews for customers, plus additional administrative support. Multiple claims 80 In addition we have recruited additional staff at the Plymouth Total 255 Benefit Delivery Centre to handle telephone calls from customers enquiring about their benefit. Jobcentre Plus Customers contacting us to make a claim for Jobseeker’s Allowance are currently waiting between three and five days from Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work their initial contact to see an adviser for their New Claims and Pensions what the average cost of a course delivered Interview at Plymouth Jobcentre and two days at Devonport at a Jobcentre Plus programme centre is. [271702] Jobcentre. Unfortunately waiting times for an appointment in Plymouth Jobcentre have risen higher than we would like due to Jim Knight: Programme centre contract prices for several local large scale redundancies. However we are working 2009-10 are £328 per successful outcome (between £347 additional hours during weekends to undertake new claims interviews and £386 in London). Of this, 70 per cent. is paid up to reduce waiting times for customers. front when a customer starts and the remaining 30 per Claims for customers living in the Plymouth area are processed at the Benefit Delivery Centre located at Old Tree Court in cent. is paid only if the customer is placed into employment. Plymouth. The table below shows the current average time taken On average, the anticipated costs are around £254 per in April 2009 to process and pay benefit due on claims dealt with person (between £269 and £299 in London). at our Plymouth Benefit Delivery Centre. Jobcentre Plus: Plymouth Days Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Target clearance Actual clearance time in and Pensions (1) what recent assessment she has made Benefit type time April 2009 of the capacity of Plymouth Jobcentre Plus office to Jobseeker’s 11.5 10.62 meet the demand for its services; [277291] Allowance (2) what the average waiting time for applicants for Employment and 21 11.31 assistance to Plymouth Jobcentre Plus office (a) to be Support processed and (b) to receive benefit was in the latest Allowance period for which figures are available. [277292] Income Support 10 9.37 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a Staff at the Benefit Delivery Centre are also working overtime at the weekends to maximise claims clearance times. matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. We are confident that the plans we have made to expand our resource and estates in Plymouth will meet the needs of our Member with the information requested. customers. We will be continuously monitoring and reviewing our Letter from Mel Groves: services to ensure we maintain the highest standards of customer The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions service. asking what recent assessment she has made of the capacity of Plymouth Jobcentre Plus office to meet the current demands for Jobcentre Plus: Standards its services; and what the waiting time for applicants for assistance to Plymouth Jobcentre Plus office (a) to be processed and (b) to Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work receive benefit is. These are issues which fall within my responsibilities and Pensions what steps Jobcentre Plus has taken to as the Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. manage an increase in the number of people claiming I can confirm that we have been reviewing our resource and benefits. [271698] estates to meet customer demand for our services in the Plymouth area since January 2009. This review includes looking at the capacity of the Plymouth and Devonport Jobcentres to expand Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a customer facing services. Full site visits were carried out at both matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, locations on 6 May to finalise plans to free up space for additional Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right hon. workstations and hold group information sessions. Member with the information requested. 363W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 364W

Letter from Mel Groves: National Insurance: Greater London The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question asking what steps Jobcentre Plus has taken to manage an increase Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the number of people claiming benefits. This is something that and Pensions how many new national insurance falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief numbers excluding those generated automatically at Executive of Jobcentre Plus. the age of 16 have been issued to residents of the The Government’s continuing investment in Jobcentre Plus London Borough of (a) Newham, (b) Tower Hamlets, means that it is well placed to handle the impact of the current (c) Waltham Forest, (d) Hackney, (e) Barking and economic conditions and deal effectively with the increase in the Dagenham and (f) Greenwich in each of the last five number of people claiming benefits. The Department also regularly years. [270230] reviews the capacity and capability of Jobcentre Plus to effectively deliver the full range of services for which it is responsible. Jim Knight: The available information is in the following Jobcentre Plus has already implemented a number of measures table. to increase its workforce, maximise the use of estate and streamline business processes. It will continue this approach during 2009/10 The national insurance number statistics show the as Jobcentre Plus continues to recruit the additional staff funded total number of NINOs allocated—not the number of through the Budget settlement. All of this work means that migrants living in the UK. We know that many people Jobcentre Plus is in a strong position to maintain customer come to work for a short period then return—the service levels and deliver the services the newly unemployed need. statistics do not distinguish between transient/short term I am pleased to report that, despite the very large increases in working and longer-term workers. the number of people seeking assistance from Jobcentre Plus over National insurance number registrations issued to adult overseas recent months, in 2008/09 new claims for Jobseeker’s Allowance nationals entering the UK were cleared in an average of just over 10 days. This is ahead of the target of 11.5 days. It is also currently seeing around 80% of Thousand people within three days from the date of their claim to talk about 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 help in finding work. Hackney 5.47 7.65 7.46 8.53 Newham 10.45 14.87 15.67 20.51 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lincolnshire Tower Hamlets 7.28 10.46 11.57 13.21 Barking and 2.53 3.16 3.08 4.29 Dagenham Shona McIsaac: To ask the Secretary of State for Greenwich 3.64 5.69 5.69 6.53 Work and Pensions what the average length of time Waltham 7.01 9.9 9.46 12.67 jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) Forest Great Grimsby and (b) Cleethorpes received JSA was UK total 435.35 663.06 705.84 733.09 Notes: in each of the last five years. [279270] 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 and displayed in thousands. Some additional disclosure control has been applied. 2. Registration date is derived from the date at which a national Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. insurance number (NINO) is maintained on the National Insurance The information requested falls within the responsibility Recording System. of the UK statistics Authority. I have asked the authority 3. Totals do not include adult UK nationals issued with NINOs. 4. Geographical counts are based on the most recently recorded to reply. address of the NINO recipient. Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: Source: 100 per cent. extract from National Insurance Recording System. As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Improvements have been made to the allocation of Parliamentary Question asking for what average length of time migrants whose residential address is incomplete. Figures jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) Great Grimsby and (b) Cleethorpes received JSA in each of the last five years. reflect the best estimate of an overseas national’s locality at the time of registering for a NINO. (279270) The latest year that full data are available is 2007-08. Data on the number of people claiming Job Seekers Allowance In the six months April to September 2008, 342,800 (JSA) is taken from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. The NINO registrations were issued to adult overseas nationals, length of a claim has been calculated, as the time between the broken down as follows: start of an individual’s claim and that claim ending, for completed claims only. Table 1 shows the median length of completed claims (’off-flows’) during the April count period in each of the last Registrations 5 years. Hackney 4,350 Table 1. Median length of completed claims (off-flows) of Jobseeker’s Newham 10,680 allowance for claimants resident in Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes Tower Hamlets 6,470 parliamentary constituencies Barking and Dagenham 2,350 Months Greenwich 3,160 April each year Great Grimsby Cleethorpes Waltham Forest 6,340 2005 9.2 8.0 2006 11.5 10.9 New Deal Schemes 2007 10.4 10.2 2008 11.3 9.2 Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2009 10.4 10.8 and Pensions how many individuals have been on the Source: (a) new deal 25 plus, (b) new deal 50 plus, (c) new Jobcentre Plus administrative system deal for partners, (d) new deal for disabled people, 365W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 366W

(e) new deal for young people, (f) new deal for lone Jim Knight [holding answer 1 June 2009]: The Budget parents and (g) new deal for musicians programmes 2009 announced additional funding for the long-term more than once in a year by region since their unemployed of £620 million in addition to £350 million inception. [268688] that had been announced at the pre-Budget report. Most of the provision for long-term unemployed people Jim Knight: The available information has been placed will be provided through the Flexible New Deal over in the Library. the next two years, although phased implementation New deal for musicians is an integral part of new deal means that there will still be some expenditure on New for young people and new deal 25+ and as such is not Deal and Employment Zones programmes over the recorded separately. next two years. Information for new deal 50+ and new deal for Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals partners is temporarily unavailable while a potential problem with these breakdowns is investigated. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to the answer to the right and Pensions whether a cap may be placed on referrals hon. Member for Birkenhead of 17 November 2008, to (a) New Deal for Young People, (b) New Deal 25 Official Report, column 483W, on welfare state: EU plus, (c) Employment Zones, (d) New Deal for enlargement, when she expects the report on the review Disabled People, (e) New Deal for Lone Parents and of EEA nationals’ access to benefits to be published. (f) other New Deal programmes as a result of (i) [278332] capacity and (ii) budgetary constraints. [271718] Jim Knight: The main findings of the review were Jim Knight: From 6 April Jobcentre Plus started that there were robust rules already in place on EEA delivering the enhanced Jobseekers Regime in the 28 nationals’ access to the benefit system but that a stronger Jobcentre Plus districts in Phase 1. In July 2008, the test of employment prospects should be applied to EEA existing New Deal (including Private Sector Led) and nationals claiming income based jobseeker’s allowance, Employment Zone (incorporating new deal for lone and that the Department’s ability to monitor claims to parents) providers were notified that their contracts benefit from EEA nationals should be improved. There would end in April 2009, with the Flexible New Deal are complex issues related to EU law to be considered providers due to start delivering tailored support to before decisions can be reached on the way forward. customers from October 2009. Social Security Benefits: Payments Following consultation with the existing providers (in December 2008), smoother transitional arrangements between April and October 2009 were agreed involving Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work additional referrals to existing New Deal and Employment and Pensions (1) what estimate she has made of the Zone providers being maintained until June 2009, with average bridging payment to be paid to claimants of those services being continued alongside the enhanced each type of benefit moving to fortnightly benefit Jobseekers Regime. The number of additional referrals payments in arrears under the provisions of the Social was agreed with providers at a level that will enable Security (Claims and Payments) (Amendment (No.2)) customers to complete their provision and be returned Regulations 2008 and the Social Security (Transitional to Jobcentre Plus on a phased basis by the end of Payments) Regulations 2008; [272663] September 2009. (2) what estimate she has made of the average benefit New Deal and Employment Zone referrals in Phase 2 payment made to claimants of each type of benefit who areas will continue as normal and will not be capped as will move to fortnightly benefit payments in arrears a result of capacity or budgetary constraints. New deal under the provisions of the Social Security (Claims and for disabled people is not affected by these arrangements. Payments) (Amendment (No.2)) Regulations 2008 and Jobseekers in all areas also have access to the recently the Social Security (Transitional Payments) Regulations introduced extra help for the newly unemployed and an 2008. [272665] expanded range of work and training options to provide jobs through recruitment subsidies, support to start a Jim Knight: We have not made an estimate of the business, work-related training and volunteering average amount of bridging payment as payments will opportunities. be made at a rate equivalent to 100 per cent. of the customer’s actual weekly benefit. In his Budget 2009 Report the Chancellor announced an additional £1.7 billion for the Department for Work Information about the average benefit payment made and Pensions to deal with the increased workload and to claimants of each type of benefit, who will move to associated pressures on Jobcentre Plus and employment fortnightly benefit payments in arrears, is not available. programme providers resulting from changes in the Train to Gain Programme: North East economy. This is in addition to the £1.3 billion announced at the pre-Budget report. Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in the North East are and Pensions how much funding her Department has taking part in the Train to Gain programme. [276626] allocated from (a) the £1.7 billion funding allocation announced in the Budget 2009 and (b) the £1.3 billion Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. announced in the pre-Budget report in November 2008 Table 1 shows the number of people starting a Train to Flexible New Deal; and if she will make a statement. to Gain programme by local authority, between 2005-06 [277071] and 2007-08. 367W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 368W

Table 1: Train to Gain Starts in the North East 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1104W, on Local Authority 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 council housing, if he will place in the Library a copy of each of the 98 written responses. [279860] Darlington 100 500 700 Durham 1,000 3,400 4,200 Mr. Ian Austin: Yes. Copies of the responses to the Gateshead 300 1,200 1,700 recent consultation on changes to the revenue and capital Hartlepool 100 500 700 rules for council housing, will be placed in the Library Middlesbrough 200 900 1,100 when we have considered the responses and made final Newcastle 200 1,300 1,700 decisions on the exclusions process and criteria. Upon Tyne North Tyneside 200 1,100 1,400 Northumberland 300 1,500 2,000 Council Housing: Finance Redcar and 200 1,000 1,200 Cleveland South Tyneside 300 1,000 1,200 Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Stockton-on- 200 1,000 1,300 Communities and Local Government whether local Tees authorities may apply for National Affordable Housing Sunderland 400 1,800 2,600 Programme grant funding to build local authority Total 3,500 15,200 19,800 housing. [279779] Notes: 1. Volumes are rounded to the nearest 100 . Figures may not sum to Mr. Ian Austin: We have made £100 million available totals due to rounding. in the Budget for local authorities to build social housing. 2. This table uses programme starts as a measure for comparative The Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) will accept purposes. Full-year numbers are a count of the number of starts at local authority bids under this programme until the any point during the year. Learners starting more than one course will appear more than once. bidding has been concluded and the funding allocated 3. Area is based on learner’s home postcode. after the July and October bidding rounds. Thereafter, Source: local authorities may bid for grant from the main WBL, ILR, NES National Affordable Housing Programme. Work Trials Council Tax: Statistics Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many individuals in each region have been on the Work Trial programme more than Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for once since its inception; [268683] Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 29 April (2) how many individuals in each region took part in 2009, Official Report, column 1340W, on statistics: the Work Trial programme (a) in each year since its council tax, for what reasons his Department has not inception and (b) in each of the last eight quarters. responded to the UK Statistics Authority’s notification [268684] of 6 January 2009 that it wished to assess and determine whether the Code of Practice for Official Jim Knight: The information is not collated centrally. Statistics had been complied with in respect of statistics on council tax levels set by local authorities. [279793]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Following receipt of the UK COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Statistics Authority’s letter, my officials met with the Cotswolds Conservation Board authority and agreed that no response to the letter was necessary until my Department has decided whether or not to seek designation. It was agreed that this decision Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for would be taken later in the year. Communities and Local Government for what reasons the (a) Cotswolds Conservation Board and (b) Chilterns Conservation Board is not on the list of statutory Homes and Communities Agency: Internet consultees for national planning policy statements. [279861] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: AONB Conservation Boards are Communities and Local Government (1) how much included within the list of statutory consultees for National was spent on the establishment of websites for the (a) Policy Statements. The Cotswolds and Chilterns Homes and Communities Agency and (b) Tenant Services Conservation Boards, by virtue of being such organisations, Authority; [280285] are thereby included. The full list is set out within (2) how many (a) unique visitors and (b) page Statutory Instrument No. 2009/1302 which comes into impressions were registered on the (i) Homes and force on 22 June 2009. Communities Agency and (ii) the Tenant Services Authority website in each month since its creation. [280297] Council Housing John Healey: The Homes and Communities Agency Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for (HCA) spent £47,219 on the establishment of its website. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the The number of unique visitors and page impressions Answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn, Hatfield of registered are listed as follows: 369W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 370W

HCA website usage stats Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Officials are working with the Unique visitors Page views/impressions Audit Commission, CIPFA and the local authority December 19,721 190,408 associations to assess how the Department’s investment 2008 guidance might be fine tuned in light of the report from January 2009 26,165 231,076 the CLG Select Committee and the report of the Audit February 2009 30,077 237,243 Commission on local authorities and Icelandic banks. March 2009 32,594 241,883 The Department’s guidance on local government April 2009 39,929 267,390 investments is available at: May 2009 44,241 311,907 http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/capital/data/ lginvest2.pdf There were no external costs associated with the The Audit Commission does not issue guidance to development of the TSA website. It was created in-house. authorities on investment policies. The number of unique visitors and page impressions registered are listed as follows: London Development Agency: Consultants TSA website usage stats Unique visitors Page views/impressions Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities December 1— 1— and Local Government how much the London 2008 Development Agency spent on consultants in each of January 2009 93,521 509,356 the last five years. [279380] February 2009 94,603 518,758 March 2009 97,412 512,792 Ms Rosie Winterton: The London Development Agency April 2009 83,667 419,873 is primarily accountable to the Mayor of London for May 2009 83,269 395,983 the use of its expenditure, and the Government do not 1 No figures available collect information on consultants.

Housing: Low Incomes London Development Agency: Pay

Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government what arrangements and Local Government how much was paid in bonuses there are for (a) audit and (b) evaluation of the customer to (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and service given by HomeBuy agents. [279968] delivery managers and (d) executive support and administration staff in the London Development Agency John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply in each of the last five years. [280320] that my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret Beckett) gave on 6 May 2009, Official Report, Ms Rosie Winterton: The London Development Agency column 242-3W,to the hon. Member for Welywn Hatfield is primarily accountable to the Mayor of London for (Grant Shapps). the use of its expenditure, and the Government do not collect information on any bonuses paid to its staff. Infrastructure Planning Commission: Offices Mortgages: Government Assistance Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Mr. Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities has made of (a) the annual cost of office accommodation and Local Government how many people in each district for the Infrastructure Planning Commission and (b) of Greater Manchester have (a) received assistance the costs incurred in (i) moving and (ii) refurbishment. from and (b) been refused assistance under the Mortgage [279969] Rescue Scheme because the value of their property exceeds the eligible criteria. [279864] John Healey: The IPC HQ offices will be accommodated within the existing CLG estate in Bristol. This is in line John Healey: The £285 million Government Mortgage with HMT’s Operating and Efficiency Programme and Rescue Scheme has been operational across the country CLG’s Group Corporate Services Programme. Our current since January 2009. The scheme aims to support estimate of the costs of the programme including “vulnerable”households (families with dependent children, accommodation is in the impact assessment published or those containing elderly, ill or disabled people, who in November 2007and the annex published in January can no longer afford their repayments and who would 2009. Further work is under way to confirm the annual be legally entitled to homelessness assistance if repossessed) costs and refurbishment costs which are subject to in England at risk of repossession over the next two negotiation at this stage and therefore commercial in years. The scheme is one part of a comprehensive confidence. package of measures to help households at risk of repossession. Local Government Finance The scheme aims to offer help at different stages to vulnerable households facing repossession. Based on Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for figures reported to CLG by local authorities participating Communities and Local Government what plans (a) in the scheme, 290 households in mortgage difficulties his Department and (b) the Audit Commission has to within the Greater Manchester region have so far received review guidance to local authorities on investment free advice and support from their local authority since policies. [279873] the launch of the scheme. 371W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 372W

Based on the latest published statistics, 45 households development plan documents, supplementary planning in the Greater Manchester area were being assessed for documents and statements of community involvement. the Government Mortgage to Rent and Shared Equity The number and type of local development documents options of the scheme as at the end of April. A further will vary between local authorities as will timetables. 10 households in the following local authorities had These are published on each local authority’s website. benefited from action through the scheme in which the According to the Department’s database, 97 core strategies lender agreed to halt repossession action and freeze or other development plan documents have been adopted charges. by local planning authorities with a further 16 found Bolton—(one household) sound by the Planning Inspectorate and awaiting adoption. Bury—(two households) The most recent list of documents can be found on the Manchester—(five households) Planning Inspectorate website: Oldham—(two households) http://www.planning-inspectorate.gov.uk/pins/appeals/ local_dev/dpd/submitted_dpd’s_may_09.pdf Additionally, two households in Oldham had received a formal offer of assistance to remain in their home This figure excludes all supplementary planning from their housing association provider. documents which are a local matter. In addition, all authorities have adopted statements of community Only one household in the Greater Manchester area involvement. has so far been ineligible for the Government Mortgage to Rent and Shared Equity options of the Scheme due to the property price cap. From 1 May, we raised the Planning Permission: Nature Conservation regional property caps for all regions to allow more households to apply for help. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for and what percentage of planning applications have Communities and Local Government how many been made in respect of sites where a population of (a) applications have been made to the Homeowner great crested newts and (b) bats has been found. Mortgage Protection Scheme to date; and how many of [279221] these have met the eligibility criteria. [280051] Mr. Ian Austin: The total number of sites subject to John Healey: The scheme opened with the first group planning applications at which great crested newts or of lenders on 21 April. Borrowers apply to the Homeowners bats have been found is not collected. Great crested Mortgage Support scheme through their lender. Before newts and bats are protected species under the European being admitted to the scheme, they need to take money Habitats Directive and any development proposal that advice. We have worked with the participating lenders would exceptionally have an adverse effect on them to produce a proportionate reporting system. Official would require a licence from Natural England. figures on the number of households entering the scheme will be published later this year. Regional Resilience Forums

Parks: Greater Manchester Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government who the members Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for of each regional resilience forum in each Government Communities and Local Government how many parks Office region are. [279875] in (a) Tameside and (b) Stockport are receiving funding from his Department. [280429] Ms Rosie Winterton: The membership of each regional resilience forum in each Government office region has Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Public parks and green spaces been placed in the Library. are primarily funded through revenue support grant provided to local authorities by Communities and Local Sheltered Housing Government. Central Government do not prescribe how much should be spent by each local authority on their open spaces; this is a matter for them to determine Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities in line with local priorities. and Local Government if he will provide guidance to local authorities on use by tenants in sheltered housing Information is not collected by central Government of individualised budgets for the employment of housing on the number of parks in a local authority area or scheme managers in advance of the expected increase in region. take-up of direct payments in 2011. [280275]

Planning Permission Mr. Ian Austin: CLG will not be providing specific guidance to local authorities to encourage tenants in Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for sheltered housing to move to individual budgets for the Communities and Local Government which local employment of housing scheme managers. Individual planning authorities have completed the process of budgets have been developed to ensure that service adopting their local development documents. [279923] users are empowered to choose the service which best suit their needs framework. Also providing guidance Mr. Ian Austin: The Local Development Framework would not fit with the direction on devolution and is the collective name for a suite of local development increased decision making which authorities now have documents which includes core strategies and other via the new local government framework. 373W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 374W

Social Rented Housing: Standards GO Membership Remit

Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Waste specialists from all The predominant focus will be local authorities in the on local authority and Local Government how many boilers have been north-east region. performance issues. replaced under the Decent Homes programme in each Environment Agency. Principal outcomes: of the last three years. [279041] Tees Valley Joint Strategy Efficient and effective standing Mr. Ian Austin: We do not collect data on the number Unit. communications between DEFRA’s Waste of boilers installed in council homes. However, the Implementation Programme statistical return that local authorities complete at the (WIP) LA support and key end of each financial year does include data on the regional local authority waste stakeholders. number of dwellings that have had new central heating systems installed. North East Regional Waste A collective arena within Awareness Initiative which all regional bodies with Number of local authority dwellings receiving new central heating (NERWAI). a stake in improving LA systems by year recycling/recovery performance can meet to Number inform, engage, ‘join up’, reflect and propose. 2005-06 139,494 North East Regional Positive development of the 2006-07 135,477 Improvement and Efficiency WIP LA support programme. 2007-08 113,520 Partnership. More co-ordinated working of Total 388,491 regional networks and Government support Source: programmes. Data from the Business Plan Statistical Appendix Premier Waste—waste Content and Structure of The Department does not collect data on insulation management company. Meetings: works by registered social landlords. SITA UK—recycling and An exclusively Municipal waste management Solid Waste (MSW) focus, company. though this can include other Supporting People Scheme waste streams, providing the impact on municipal waste is Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for evidenced. Communities and Local Government what steps his Groundwork Local authority performance UK—environmental orientated. Department is taking to ensure the continued operation regeneration charity. of Handy Person schemes after 1 April 2010. [280499] Concentrate on issues pertinent to WIP LA support Mr. Ian Austin: CLG will provide £17 million dedicated (e.g. early review of emerging funding for handypersons services, via a separate named projects and tools, development of new project grant, in 2010-11. This will be the second year of a two ideas). However, other WIP year programme to build capacity in the sector, announced streams and issues with an in the Government’s housing strategy for an ageing explicit regional dimension will also need to be society, Lifetime homes, lifetime neighbourhoods. coordinated with the Regional Technical Advisory Board on waste’s (RTAB’s) Waste Management: Advisory Bodies responsibilities (e.g. New Technologies, regional market development, land use Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for planning etc.). Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Emphasis on action and Answer of 28 April 2009, Official Report, column 1164W, implementation, not a general on the Waste Regional Advisory Group, what the (a) policy forum, although policy issues cannot be excluded membership and (b) remit of each waste regional advisory where they have an overt group is. [279997] implementation angle. Seeking to secure the most Ms Rosie Winterton: Government Office membership comprehensive regional and remit of waste regional advisory group is as in the dissemination and feedback. following table.

East None East Midlands does not have a GO Membership Remit Midlands WRAG. East None East does not have a WRAG. West None West Midlands does not have Midlands a WRAG. Yorkshire Government Office for To support local authorities and the Yorkshire and the Humber and other partners in London None London does not have a Humber (Chair). achieving improved WRAG. performance on waste issues. Local Authorities. To act as a voice for Y&H North Chaired by the Government Advisory in nature. Has an Region with DEFRA and East Office for the North East. “informal” status. Members other national organisations need to be clear that this will and to be a mechanism to not be a formally constituted influence and support the body: it will have no ‘official’ implementation of DEFRA or statutory duties and and other policy within the responsibilities. region. 375W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 376W

GO Membership Remit GO Membership Remit

WRAP (waste and resources The role of the WRAG is Local Government Co-ordinating input to other action programme). evolving in response to Yorkshire and Humber. regional forums and develop changes in the background good communication links against which the WRAG with them e.g. RTAB and operates, notably in relation to RIWMS, Yorkshire Forward regional governance. Partners in the region continue to see a Environment Agency. Seek opportunities to share need for the WRAG; and the best practise and strengthen group is currently involved in partnership working and developing a programme of networks and influence support to local delivery emerging projects and partners with the NW initiatives, including improvement and efficiency developing the most effective partnership. and efficient mechanism for regional dissemination. DEFRA WIP (as appropriate) CIWM. LARAC. LARAC (local authority recycling committee). Yorkshire Forward. NW improvement and efficiency partnership Resources North.

Resource Efficiency Yorkshire. HEALTH

South None South East does not have a East WRAG. Blood: Safety

South None South West does not have a West WRAG. Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what process his Department follows for approving medical products designed to ensure the safety of North The NW WRAG is chaired The WRAG Remit includes: blood prior to their adoption for use by the National West by GONW and comprised Blood Service; [279472] of representatives. (2) how many CE-marked medical products have From: Government Office A Strategic Focus on subjected by his Department to efficacy and safety for the North West (chair Municipal Waste in the NW and secretariat). and on Local Authority waste validation procedures in addition to those performed performance. by manufacturers in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009 to date. [279473] Regional Technical advisory Addressing issues relevant to body 4NW regional leaders DEFRA’s waste forum. implementation programme (WIP) (e.g. early review of Gillian Merron: The Medicines and Healthcare products emerging projects and tools, Agency (MHRA) which is the Competent Authority in development of new project the United Kingdom for medical devices does not approve ideas). medical devices designed to ensure the safety of blood North West Development The co-ordination of other before they are placed on the market. Manufacturers of Agency WIP streams and issues with such medical devices must meet the relevant essential an explicit regional dimension (e.g. new technologies, requirements in the Medical Devices directives prior to regional market development, signing a declaration of conformity and CE marking land use planning etc.). their products. Environment Agency. Maximising regional Such higher risk medical devices must obtain an EC dissemination of WIP to Certificate of Conformity from a Notified Body as part stakeholders through regional and sub-regional partnerships. of this conformity assessment process. As such MHRA has not carried out any safety or validation procedures 3 x waste disposal Collective feedback to on any CE marked medical devices in addition to those authorities (including at DEFRA on consultations and least 1 Joint WDA). emerging policies. carried out by the manufacturer. Since the UK Blood Services have a legal responsibility to ensure the quality 5 x waste collection Regional input to European, and safety of blood products, the Advisory Committee authorities (one per county national and regional waste area). strategies, regional spatial on the Microbiological Safety of Blood, Tissues and strategy and emerging single Organs (MSBTO) also recommended that clinical trials regional strategy. be carried out, using blood which had been subjected to Representation from five Joint consideration of prion filtration. The independent Advisory Committee unitary authorities appropriate bids for any future on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs replaced partnership funding e.g. MSBTO in 2008. WRAP and other DEFRA LA Waste funding and other funding providers. Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NWRF (North West Engage with/organise regional for what reasons the P-Capt prion filter has been Recycling Forum). events, lever funding for subjected to safety and efficacy tests additional to seminars, workshops and those performed by the manufacturer by his conferences. Department. [279474] 377W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 378W

Gillian Merron: The Government’s independent expert As well as working together to tackle issues that scientific committee on variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease affect all departments and their work, each Government (and other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies), Department is adapting to climate change in its own the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee, operations and policies. recommended that the UK Blood Services should On adaptation to the expected health impacts of commission an independent validation of such products. climate change, the Department of Health has: The UK Blood Services have commissioned an independent published a report with the Health Protection Agency on the assessment of the efficacy of the filter. “Health Effects of Climate Change in the UK, 2008”, using Quality studies on filtered blood are being conducted the UKCIP02 scenarios. The report sets out the various health in accordance with UK Blood Services guidelines. effects facing the United Kingdom from climate change. A copy has already been placed in the Library; The need for safety studies was endorsed by the produced a National Heatwave Plan, first launched in 2004, Advisory Committee on the Microbiological Safety of that is updated yearly based upon the latest available evidence. Blood, Tissues and Organs in 2006. The plan’s purpose is to enhance resilience in the event of a heatwave. A copy has already been placed in the Library. A Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health traffic light ‘Heat-Health Watch’ system operates in England what the cost to his Department of testing the efficacy during the summer months; and safety of the P-Capt prion filter has been since produced guidance with the Health Protection Agency on such tests were required. [279475] dealing with disruptive challenges and managing incidents including from flooding. The guidance “NHS Resilience and Business Continuity Management Guidance” has been placed Gillian Merron: Efficacy and safety tests on the P-Capt in the Library; filter have incurred no cost to the Department. raised awareness of the health impacts of climate change with guidance documents on climate change and promoting sustainable Children: Health communities for the health sector, outlining key mitigation and adaptation policies and also suggesting a code for reducing Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for carbon footprints; Health what guidance his Department issues on the in December 2008, launched a new public health workforce suitability of the use of (a) pushchairs and (b) car initiative funded by the Department to address climate change. seats of categories 0 and 0+ as domestic seating for This is tasked with creating a new vision of the role for public health in tackling climate change, equipping the profession to infants. [277784] take action on both reducing emissions and on preparing for climate change; Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. on national health service energy targets, the NHS is working This Department does not offer advice to parents towards mandatory energy and carbon efficiency targets (from and carers who wish to use pushchairs as domestic 2000 to 2010) and key performance indicators for new capital seating for infants, although we would recommend that build developments and refurbishments, and the existing operational anyone wishing to do so consults the pushchair estate; manufacturer for guidance. the NHS Carbon Reduction Strategy was recently launched on in January 2009 and sets out ways that these reduction targets The Department for Transport has responsibility for can be achieved. The plans cover many aspects of patients’ child restraint systems, the construction of which is care, from building design to transport, waste, food, water and governed by international UNECE Regulation 44. energy use; Compliance with this regulation ensures that children internationally and following on from the WHO Climate Change are provided with the best level of protection when and Health Resolution, 2008, UK officials have worked with travelling in a vehicle. There is no assessment made of the World Health Organization (WHO) Secretariat to develop the suitability of such a device for use in the home, and a WHO work plan for its implementation. This work plan was therefore the Department offers no guidance on this agreed at the 62nd World Health Assembly this year; and issue. However, we would recommend that adults wishing the UK also co-chairs a Climate Change and Health Task to allow infants to remain seated in such a device while Force, drafting a Framework for Action for WHO-Europe, given that, since the resolution was passed last year, WHO in the home consult the child restraint manufacturer. regions are developing their own climate change action plans. Climate Change Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of his Department’s Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for potential gross (a) costs and (b) savings arising from Health what steps his Department has taken to adapt its climate change adaptation measures in the next its activities to climate change in the last two years. three years. [277722] [277638] Phil Hope: It is not currently possible to provide Phil Hope: All Departments are actively involved in estimates of the potential costs and savings over the the cross-Government Adapting to Climate Change next three years. It has, however, been shown in the Programme, which aims to help society adapt to climate Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change that change. The role of the programme is to develop and timely and well-targeted climate adaptation measures provide a comprehensive evidence base including adaptation will yield benefits in excess of their costs. The main tools, to raise awareness of the need to adapt, to measure rationale for investment to address climate risk will be success and to work across Government at all levels to to reduce the United Kingdom’s vulnerability to longer-term embed adaptation. Further details about the programme’s climate change impacts. work can be found at: The Government are undertaking a Climate Change www.defra.gov.uk/environment/climatechange/adapt/ Risk Assessment and Economic Analysis, which will index.htm provide estimates of the costs and benefits of adaptation 379W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 380W to the UK. This analysis will be presented to Parliament Epilepsy: Health Services within three years of the Climate Change Act coming in to force. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to provide Diabetes: Orthopaedics guidance on service improvement to those parts of the NHS engaged in the delivery of services to patients Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for with epilepsy. [280273] Health how many people diagnosed with diabetes had an amputation in the year 2007-08; and if he will make Ann Keen: Following my meeting with the all-party a statement. [279730] Parliamentary group on epilepsy on 19 May, I have asked officials to work with epilepsy groups to consider Ann Keen: In the year 2007-08 the number of finished what additional support is needed to improve the consultant episodes for amputations due to diabetes commissioning of epilepsy services in those areas of the mellitus was 2,114. country where services are not meeting the standards Reducing the number of amputations due to diabetes expected within the national health service. mellitus relies on good self-management of diabetes This work will build on earlier guidance to the NHS, and good services to support people with diabetes. The including the national service framework for long-term Diabetes National Service Framework sets out the overall conditions and the clinical guideline the Department strategy for preventing long-term complications of the commissioned from the National Institute for Health condition. This has also been supplemented by the and Clinical Excellence on the diagnosis and management National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence of the epilepsies in adults and children in primary and guidance, which recommends that people with diabetes secondary care. should be offered foot examinations by trained personnel Fluoride: Drinking Water as part of their annual review. It also recommends that local national health service organisations have systems in place to identify people who may be at risk of Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health developing foot complications and to offer them how many instances of too much fluoride entering the preventative foot care. water supply in relation to each water (a) authority and (b) company have been reported since 1997. [279855] Commissioning guidance “Putting feet first” was published by NHS Diabetes and Diabetes UK on 12 June Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. and is to assist national health service organisations in The European standard for the maximum permitted developing services for the management of foot level of fluoride in drinking water (1.5mg/l) is enshrined complications and the prevention of amputations. in the Water Supply (Water Quality) Regulations 2000 It is for local NHS organisations to commission a (as amended). The Drinking Water Inspectorate is the comprehensive service for people with diabetes that enforcement body for these regulations. includes podiatry services, in accordance with best practice Water authorities ceased to exist on privatisation of guidance. the water industry in 1989. Water companies are required Epilepsy to notify the Inspectorate of any breach of regulatory standards and the Inspectorate independently assesses the actions taken by the company. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much has been spent on (a) research into and (b) Since 1997 there have been three occasions when the treatment of epilepsy in each of the last five years. Inspectorate has been notified of fluoride exceeding the standard in England or Wales, as follows: [278131] Occasions of fluoride Gillian Merron: The information requested in respect exceeding the standard Water company of research expenditure is shown in the following table. 1997 None — Expenditure on epilepsy research 1998 None — £ million 1999 None — Department of Medical Research Health Council 2000 1 Three Valleys Water 2001 None — 2004-05 0.4 3.9 2002 None — 2005-06 0.2 4.9 2003 None — 2006-07 0.4 4.9 2004 1 Hartlepool Water 2007-08 0.9 5.9 2005 None — 1 2008-09 1.5 — 2006 None — 1 Not yet available. 2007 None — The departmental figures relate to national research 2008 1 Severn Trent Water programmes. They do not include expenditure on epilepsy research from the research and development allocations Health Services: Voluntary Organisations made over the period concerned to national health service organisations as that information is not held Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health centrally. what steps his Department is taking to develop the role NHS expenditure on the treatment of epilepsy is not of the voluntary sector in the provision of health and separately identifiable. social care. [280276] 381W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 382W

Phil Hope: The Department values the substantial range of enforcement powers to ensure high performance contribution voluntary organisations and the wider third in infection control. All acute NHS trusts are inspected sector make to the delivery of high quality health and annually to assess compliance against these requirements. social care services and has taken a strongly pro-active approach to recognising and embracing their contribution as critical and integral to the delivery of improved Incontinence: Medical Equipment outcomes in health and social care. A cross-cutting third sector programme was established Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State in 2007, with the key objective of increasing opportunities for Health what expenditure his Department has for third sector organisations to inform and influence incurred on the procurement of services from (a) national health service and local authority commissioning Deloitte and (b) other consultants in respect of the and to participate in the provision of services. review of Part IX of the Drug Tariff; and what estimate The Department’s Third Sector Investment Programme he has made of the total expenditure to be incurred on helps to strengthen and develop the partnership between the procurement of such services. [279210] the Department and third sector organisations; supporting innovative projects that help secure and promote high Phil Hope: Costs for professional advice from Deloitte quality health and social care throughout England. were around £3.7 million from April 2005 to February £17,945,222 was made available in 2009-10 to fund 11 2009. No other consultants were contracted. strategic partners, 116 new projects and 191 continuing projects. Mental Health Services: Financial Services Healthy Start Scheme Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will discuss with the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many retailers are participating in his Department’s the development of measures to co-ordinate the Healthy Start scheme. [280135] provision of mental health services with the provision of relevant financial advice services. [279973] Gillian Merron: On 24 April 2009, the most recent date for which figures are available, there were 28,842 Phil Hope: The Government are working to offer individual retail outlets participating in the Healthy help and support to people whose lives are being affected Start Scheme in Great Britain. by the current economic recession. This Department, Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Department for Work and Hospitals: Infections Pensions, the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are co-ordinating Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health efforts to help address the needs of people during the what further steps he plans to take to reduce levels of current economic recession. healthcare-associated infections. [279577] Health advisers on the dedicated NHS Direct telephone helpline are being trained to identify callers who might Ann Keen: The Department’s strategy for reducing be experiencing depression because of the current economic healthcare associated infections (HCAIs) in the national recession and to refer them to appropriate sources health service is set out in “Clean, safe care”, which has of help. already been placed in the Library. In addition infection control is one of the top priorities in the NHS Operating Framework. Methicillin-resistant Mentally Ill: Prisoners Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and Clostridium difficile targets to 2010-11 have been set under the Better Care Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for All Public Service Agreement. The NHS has met the how many prisoners were diagnosed with a mental 50 per cent. MRSA national reduction target. To follow illness in (a) Essex and (b) the Eastern region in each this the National Quality Board is overseeing the of the last five years. [280221] development of a new minimum standard for MRSA, which will come into effect from April 2010. Phil Hope: The information requested is not held All relevant elective admissions to hospitals are now centrally. screened for MRSA, and all emergency admissions will be by 2011. Other steps include a technology programme designed to accelerate the development and uptake of Midwives new technologies to improve infection control, the development of a new national standard for cleanliness in the NHS, the expansion of the code of practice for Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for the NHS on the prevention and control of healthcare Health what estimate he has made of the proportion of associated infections to cover all care providers, and a midwives recruited into the NHS who were recruited new HCAI patient awareness campaign to be launched from overseas in the latest period for which figures are in the autumn. available; and if he will make a statement. [281122] These measures should support the NHS to meet their legal registrations requirements on infection control Ann Keen: The Department does not collect data on with the new Care Quality Commission, which has a the number of midwives recruited from overseas centrally. 383W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 384W

MRSA: East of England Osteoporosis: Health Education

Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many cases of MRSA in the East of Health what steps are being taken to encourage young England region have been reported to his Department people to take action to reduce their chances of having in each year since 1997; and if he will make a statement; (a) osteoporosis and (b) fragility fractures in later life. [280280] [280238] (2) how many cases of MRSA in Luton and Dunstable Hospital have been reported to his Department in each Ann Keen: A healthy lifestyle, including weight bearing year since 1997; and if he will make a statement. exercise and following a balanced diet, can help to [280281] increase bone mineral density and protect against osteoporosis and the risk of fragility fractures in later Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format life. requested. The data are only available by financial year The Department is working closely with the Department and the earliest period available is 2001-02. for Children, Schools and Families and the Department Since April 2001, all acute national health service for Business, Innovation and Skills to address healthy trusts in England are obliged to report all cases of lifestyles for children and young people on a variety of bloodstream infections caused by methicillin-resistant key health issues including exercise and diet. Holistic Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). health initiatives such as the Healthy Schools Programme and the Healthy Further Education Programme are The following data comprise of all specimens processed ensuring that progress continues to be made to develop by NHS acute trust laboratories, not just those from healthy lifestyles among children and young people. in-patients and include infections acquired in hospital and elsewhere. The Society-wide movement, Change 4 Life, will also help children and their families become healthier by Number of cases of bloodstream infections caused by MRSA improving diets and levels of activity. April to March each Luton and Dunstable year East of England Foundation Trust Osteoporosis: Males 2001-02 662 22 2002-03 607 28 2003-04 678 21 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2004-05 725 19 what steps he is taking to improve treatment of men 2005-06 678 32 who (a) have osteoporosis and (b) are at high risk of 2006-07 529 21 fragility fractures. [280173] 2007-08 333 15 Ann Keen: The forthcoming prevention package for National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence older people will include a focus on best practice for commissioning falls prevention and care for people Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State with fractures and will support local national health for Health which interventions (a) have been assessed service and social care organisations to improve services and (b) are being assessed by the National Institute for for falls, fractures and osteoporosis. We will continue to Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) through its review the evidence and opportunity for improved services Single Technology Appraisal process; and on what date in this area. (i) each such intervention was referred to NICE, (ii) A healthy lifestyle, including weight bearing exercise NICE (A) commenced and (B) completed its appraisal and following a healthy diet, is a key element of managing of each intervention and (iii) those interventions which osteoporosis. The Society-wide movement, Change 4 have received a licence were licensed by NICE. [279202] Life, will help people become healthier by improving diets and levels of activity. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested has been placed in the Library. This includes the date on Strokes which drugs were licensed by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency or the European Medicines Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Health (1) how many cases of stroke there were in (a) Excellence is not responsible for the licensing of drugs. males and (b) females in each age group in North NHS: ICT Devon in each year since 1999; [280159] (2) how many (a) males and (b) females in each age Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State group under the age of 50 years were diagnosed as for Health how much his Department has spent on the having had a stroke in each year since 1999. [280161] NHS IT dispute process in respect of its dispute with Fujitsu to date. [279213] Ann Keen: The following tables and notes show how many finished admission episodes for stroke, broken Mr. Mike O’Brien: As at 11 June 2009, payments for down by age group and sex for the years 1999-2000 to accountancy, and legal and associated professional services 2007-08 and how many finished admission episodes for in connection with the dispute resolution process totalled stroke in Devon Primary Care Trust (PCT) broken some £2,613,000. down by age group and sex. 385W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 386W

Count of finished admission episodes for stroke1 in Devon PCT, broken down by age group and sex, for the years 1999-2000 to 2007-08: Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 1999- Sex Age group 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 2004-05 2003-04 2002-03 2001-02 2000-01 2000

Male 0-9*****600* 10-19 0*******0 20-29 ******76* 30-39 13 8 * 12 11 15 10 18 9 40-49 31 45 25 21 27 31 20 22 19 50-59 61 71 69 78 77 64 89 61 56 60-69 179 129 121 132 128 121 118 133 149 70-79 268 277 268 232 250 264 302 300 340 80-89 298 302 285 261 284 229 230 219 245 90+ 70 76 70 68 43 60 39 45 39 Unknown **9**0000

Female 0-9**0***00* 10-19 0***0*0** 20-29 * * * 11 ***** 30-39 11 * 11 9 12 17 6 8 8 40-49 29 23 16 16 34 23 32 19 26 50-59 43 48 43 54 30 54 55 60 53 60-69 114 85 93 100 82 81 80 98 98 70-79 248 255 269 236 240 243 260 315 292 80-89 453 469 430 413 406 400 422 427 390 90+ 173 142 178 200 164 141 126 127 134 Unknown 9 * 13 6*0000 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES). The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Count of finished admission episodes for strokel, broken down by age group and sex, for the years 1999-2000 to 2007-08 in England: Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Age Sex group 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 2004-05 2003-04 2002-03 2001-02 2000-01 1999-2000

Male 0-9 163 158 163 154 145 136 97 117 153 10-19 113 119 164 141 133 175 135 112 110 20-29 347 322 291 269 305 278 325 265 279 30-39 814 899 897 862 852 809 867 760 681 40-49 2,312 2,364 2,244 2,296 2,118 2,038 1,904 1,840 1,877 50-59 4,383 4,616 4,718 4,837 4,633 4,640 4,595 4,346 4,517 60-69 7,891 7,683 7,877 8,106 8,140 8,207 8,079 8,202 8,680 70-79 11,670 11,718 12,628 12,332 12,798 13,268 13,315 13,633 14,990 80-89 10,208 10,340 10,447 10,114 10,431 10,407 9,951 9,429 9,444 90+ 1,910 1,938 1,951 1,791 1,782 1,750 1,540 1,451 1,372 Unknown 13 49 12 11 13 96 38 103 50

Female 0-9 119 83 86 95 80 85 61 67 74 10-19 76 107 100 149 77 84 89 83 72 20-29 274 264 277 253 279 279 254 270 301 30-39 703 792 746 779 759 788 716 755 776 40-49 1,918 1,801 1,774 1,959 1,692 1,754 1,616 1,544 1,619 50-59 2,887 3,055 3,203 3,224 3,245 3,304 3,161 3,036 3,236 60-69 5,135 4,986 5,281 5,543 5,481 5,554 5,408 5,772 6,222 70-79 10,439 10,828 11,822 11,611 12,133 12,731 12,857 13,252 14,773 80-89 15,858 16,255 16,608 16,867 17,004 17,340 16,708 16,497 16,823 90+ 5,583 5,653 5,933 5,650 5,563 5,506 5,023 4,837 4,826 Unknown 34 64 18 18 9 122 50 77 47 387W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 388W

Count of finished admission episodes for strokel, broken down by age group and sex, for the years 1999-2000 to 2007-08 in England: Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Age Sex group 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 2004-05 2003-04 2002-03 2001-02 2000-01 1999-2000

Other/ 0-9000000050 Unknown 10-19003000o10 20-2910000000C 30-39001003000 40-49011010005 50-590022002210 60-6912C111069 70-7921320221027 80-8915313321043 90+1312010510 Unknown 2 0 00004411 1 The following ICD-10 codes have been used: 160 Subarachnoid haemorrhage 161 Intracerebral haemorrhage 162 Other nontraumatic intracranial haemorrhage 163 Cerebral infarction 164 Stroke, not specified as haemorrhage or infarction Notes: Ungrossed data Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (i.e. the data are ungrossed). Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. Primary diagnosis The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and 7 prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. Data quality HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data is also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. PCT/strategic health authority (SHA) data quality PCT and SHA data was added to historic data years in the HES database using 2002-03 boundaries, as a one-off exercise in 2004. The quality of the data on PCT of treatment and SHA of treatment is poor in 1996-97,1997-98 and 1998-99, with over a third of all finished episodes having missing values in these years. Data quality of PCT of GP practice and SHA of General practitioners practice in 1997-98 and 1998-99 is also poor, with a high proportion missing values where practices changed or ceased to exist. There is less change in completeness of the residence-based fields over time, where the majority of unknown values are due to missing postcodes on birth episodes. Users of time series analysis including these years need to be aware of these issues in their interpretation of the data. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in national health service practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. Small numbers To protect patient confidentiality, figures between one and five have been suppressed and replaced with ″*″ (an asterisk). Where it was possible to identify numbers from the total due to a single suppressed number in a row or column, an additional number (the next smallest) has been suppressed. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES). The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Swine Flu: Health Education in the research when prompted recalled receiving the leaflet, and of these, the majority had read it. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Tracking research is being carried out to check awareness what assessment he has made of his Department’s of the entire information campaign and knowledge and effectiveness in the distribution to households of understanding of swine flu. information on swine influenza; and if he will make a statement. [279433] Tranquillisers

Gillian Merron: Independent research was carried Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health out to check the receipt of the swine flu information pursuant to the answer of 18 May 2009, Official leaflet by households, and recall of the leaflet’s information, Report, columns 1228-30W, on tranquillisers, in what after the household distribution had been completed. format information on the number of in-patient The findings confirmed that most people participating prescriptions dispensed is held. [279385] 389W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 390W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The extract of the Hospital Pharmacy Table 1: Number1,2 of out of school clubs for children under eight years of age Audit Index held by the NHS Information Centre for Local authority area health and social care only shows the total volume (in Position at 31 March terms of packs) issued from hospital pharmacy departments each year: North East Lincolnshire North Lincolnshire in a month. Reporting the total number of packs for 2006 30 20 selected drugs has little meaning as pack sizes can differ 2007 30 20 for the same drug or between different drugs. The 2008 20 30 Department is unable to state the number of prescriptions 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 if under 100, and to the nearest dispensed or supplied for patients. In addition, the 100 if over 100. 2 number of patients treated with each pack is not known Data Source: Ofsted as a pack could be used to treat one patient or more. Shona McIsaac: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many registered childcare places for children under eight years old there CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES were in Cleethorpes constituency in (a) 1997 and (b) 2008. [279269] Children: Databases Dawn Primarolo: The information requested is not Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for available by parliamentary constituency.Data were collected Children, Schools and Families what assessment he has at local authority level only. The tables show the number made of the reliability of the shielding process on the of child care places in North East Lincolnshire local ContactPoint database; and if he will make a authority for 1997 and 2008. statement. [266743] Table 1 Number1, 2 of day care places for children under eight years of age by type of provider—North East Lincolnshire local authority area, position at Dawn Primarolo: Shielding of a small proportion of 31 March 1997 children’s records on ContactPoint is an additional Type of provider Number security measure, above the significant security Day nurseries 200 arrangements that apply to the system in general. It is Playgroups and pre-schools 900 appropriate in cases where there might be a risk of Childminders 500 harm if the child’s location became known. Out of school clubs 40 The system processes to support shielding were assessed Holiday schemes 3— as part of the extensive testing of ContactPoint by the Total 1,600 ContactPoint project team and a selection of future 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 if under 100, and to the nearest 100 if over 100. ContactPoint users drawn from local authorities and 2 Figures may not add up to total due to rounding our national partners. The system processes were confirmed 3 Data not collected as working correctly. The ContactPoint project team Source: has also considered feedback received from local authorities Children’s Day Care Facilities Survey Table 2: Number1, 2 of registered child care places for children under eight years undertaking pre-deployment shielding activities. of age by type of care—North East Lincolnshire local authority area, position at All local authorities have confirmed completion of 31 March 2008 the initial shielding phase of ContactPoint, and early Type of care Number adopters have begun controlled practitioner use. We Full day care 1,500 continue to take a measured approach to introducing Sessional day care 300 ContactPoint, which includes assessment of the experience Childminders 500 of use of the system by Early Adopters. Out of school day care 700 Children: Day Care Crèche day care 200 Total 3,100 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 if under 100, and to the nearest Shona McIsaac: To ask the Secretary of State for 100 if over 100. Children, Schools and Families how many (a) 2 Figures may not add up to total due to rounding Source: out-of-school and (b) holiday play schemes for Ofsted children there were in (i) North East Lincolnshire and Ofsted have collected information on the number of (ii) North Lincolnshire in each of the last five years. registered child care places available to children aged [279268] eight and under on a quarterly basis from March 2003. Their latest figures were published in their report ‘Registered Dawn Primarolo: Table 1 shows the number of out of Childcare Providers and Places, March 2009’, which is school clubs in North East Lincolnshire and North available on their website Lincolnshire in each of the last five years for which data http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Publications-and- was collected. The last year that Ofsted collected this research/Browse-all-by/Documents-by-type/Statistics/ information was 2008. Information on the number of Registered-childcare-providers-and-places-in-England- holiday play schemes is not available as Ofsted do not December-2008-onwards collect this data. Children: Protection Table 1: Number1,2 of out of school clubs for children under eight years of age Local authority area Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Position at 31 March Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has each year: North East Lincolnshire North Lincolnshire made of the number of parents who were in care who 2004 20 20 have had their children removed from them as a result 2005 20 20 of care proceedings in the last 10 years. [278327] 391W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 392W

Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 9 June 2009]: The Grammar Schools: Admissions Department holds no data on the number of parents who were in care, who have subsequently had their Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, children removed from their care as a result of care Schools and Families (1) how much has been spent proceedings so cannot provide an estimate of this. from the public purse on petitioning and balloting The decision to take a child into care is never an easy procedures in relation to selective admission arrangements one, and the decision to make a care order is taken by for grammar schools since the coming into force of the the courts. The parent’s background should not be a provisions of the Education (Grammar School Ballots) factor. Courts must be satisfied the threshold criteria Regulations 1998; [280122] are met before it can make a care order. The threshold (2) what costs his Department has incurred in respect criteria are that the child is suffering or likely to suffer of retaining the services of the Electoral Reform significant harm and that is attributable to the care Society for (a) petitions and (b) ballots on selective given to the child or likely to be given to the child, if the admission arrangements to grammar schools. [280152] order were not made. Ms Diana R. Johnson: The report to Ministers on the Departmental Energy grammar schools’ ballot system was released in August 2007. It outlines annual expenditure, including the Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for administrative costs—to date, these together have totalled Children, Schools and Families which official is responsible £2.32 million. for the energy efficiency of his Department’s estate. Integrated Children’s System [280569] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Diana R. Johnson: The official responsible for the Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer energy efficiency for the Department for Children, Schools of 25 March 2009, Official Report, columns 540-41W, and Families estate is Janet Young, Deputy Director for on the integrated children’s system, who developed the Estates and Facilities Management Division. requirements for local authorities to procure systems GCSE from IT suppliers to support the delivery of the model. [271470] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Dawn Primarolo: The ICS requirements were originally Children, Schools and Families how many and what produced as part of the Quality Protects Management proportion of GCSE entrants achieved each grade in Information project, by a team comprising Department (a) history, (b) citizenship, (c) physics, (d) English of Health (latterly, following machinery of government and (e) mathematics in each of the last five years. changes, Department for Education and Skills) officials, [280441] local authority officers, and academics working in collaboration. Frontline social workers and managers Mr. Coaker: Numbers and proportions of GCSE were involved in development through consultative entrants who achieved each grade in history, citizenship, workshops and local trialling of materials. Commercial physics, English and mathematics in each of the last five suppliers of children’s social care systems were also years can be found in the following publications: consulted and informed. In publications for 2004/05 to 2007/08, information regarding In order to learn about the processes involved in the history, physics, English and mathematics is on table 13 and provision of children’s social care services the Department figures for citizenship are in table 15. of Health consulted with local authorities and policy GCSE and Equivalent Examination Results in England specialists. This enabled them to structure the broad 2007/08 (Revised) information requirements in a logical, systematic way. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000826/ The requirements have been subsequently updated by index.shtml the DCSF, through a collaboration of policy and practice GCSE and Equivalent Examination Results in England advisers with frontline social work experience and 2006/07 (Revised) contracted specialists with knowledge of the production http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000768/ of industry-standard requirements documentation. The index.shtml most recent requirements have taken account of technical GCSE and Equivalent Examination Results in England queries raised at earlier stages by local authority officers, 2005/06 (Revised) and were partly informed by a dedicated workshop with http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000702/ a number of local authority officers involved in ICS index.shtml implementation. GCSE and Equivalent Results and Associated Value Added Olympic Games 2012 Measures in England 2004/05 (Final) http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000664/ Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for index.shtml Children, Schools and Families how many full-time In the publication for 2003/04 information regarding history, equivalent members of staff in (a) his Department and physics, English and mathematics is on table 12 and figures for (b) its associated public bodies are working on projects citizenship are in table 14. relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic GCSE and Equivalent Results for Young People in England, Games; how many of them are working on (i) project 2003/04 (Final) management, (ii) legacy planning, (iii) project oversight http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000585/ and (iv) financial oversight; and what plans he has for contents.shtml future staffing levels in each case. [279817] 393W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 394W

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The education opportunities Ofsted have collected information on the number of presented by the 2012 Games are being used to build on registered child care places available to children aged and add value to existing activity being undertaken by eight and under on a quarterly basis from March 2003. the DCSF. There are 1.3 full-time equivalent members Their latest figures were published in their report “Registered of staff allocated to co-ordinating this work. They deal Childcare Providers and Places, March 2009”, which is with all aspects of project management, legacy planning available on their website: and project oversight. Future staffing levels for this http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Publications-and- work are expected to remain at this level. research/Browse-all-by/Documents-by-type/Statistics/ The DCSF is supported in the delivery of the education Registered-childcare-providers-and-places-in-England- December-2008-onwards legacy plan by an extensive range of strategic and delivery partners, such as the London Organising Pupil Referral Units Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, DIUS and the Government Olympic Executive, Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for with some working with us across all elements of the Children, Schools and Families how much contact time plan, others on specific projects. pupils of each age in pupil referral units received on average in the latest period for which figures are available. Play: Greater Manchester [266830] Mr. Coaker: Reliable information on contact time is Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for not available. Children, Schools and Families how much funding his Department has allocated for children’s play in (a) Work is underway to develop pupil level data collections Tameside and (b) Stockport in 2009-10. [279770] for pupils in pupil referral units, and this should address the current reliability issues. Mr. Coaker: Tameside has been allocated £393,306 Pupils: Disadvantaged capital funding and £19,802 revenue funding for 2009-10. Stockport has been allocated £528,703 capital funding Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, and £26,991 revenue funding for 2009-10. Schools and Families how many and what proportion Tameside began receiving play funding from April of pupils eligible to receive free school meals achieved 2008, as part of the first wave of the children’s plan play level4orabovein(a) English and (b) mathematics in capital investment programme. The National Play Strategy, Key Stage 2 tests in each year since 2005. [277959] which was published in December 2008, announced Ms Diana R. Johnson: The number and proportion of that Government would be accelerating the capital pupils eligible to receive free school meals that achieved programme so that all of the remaining 89 top tier local level4orabovein(a) English and (b) mathematics in authorities in England would receive funding from April key stage 2 tests in the school year 2007/08 can be found 2009 as wave two of the investment programme. This in Tables 6 and 7 of the Statistical First Release ‘Attainment means that all 152 local authorities will be receiving by Pupil Characteristics, in England 2007/08, January play capital, and associated revenue, funding during the 2009 (Provisional)’ at 2009-10 financial year. Stockport has joined the programme in this second wave. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000822/ index.shtml Information for the school year 2006/07 can be found Pre-school Education: Milton Keynes in tables 5 and 6 of the Statistical First Release ‘National Curriculum Assessment, GCSE and Equivalent Attainment Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for and Post-16 Attainment by Pupil Characteristics, in Children, Schools and Families how many registered England 2006/07’ at childcare places for children under eight years old there http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000759/ are in Milton Keynes. [279719] index.shtml Information for the school year 2005/06 can be found Dawn Primarolo: The information requested is shown in tables 1 and 2 of the Statistical First Release ‘National in the following table. Curriculum Assessments, GCSE and Equivalent Table1:Number1, 2, 3 of registered child care places for children under Attainment and Post-16 Attainment by Pupil eight years of age by type of care—Milton Keynes local authority Characteristics, in England 2005/06’ at area, position at 31 March 2009 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000708/ Type of care Number index.shtml Child minders 2,100 School Meals Child care on non-domestic 6,900 premises Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Child care on domestic * Schools and Families what his Department’s policy is premises on participation in the EU School Fruit scheme. Home child carer n/a [277233] Total 9,000 * = Less than 5. Ms Diana R. Johnson: No decision has yet been made n/a = Not available. regarding participation in the EU School Fruit Scheme. 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 if under 100, and to the nearest 100 if over 100. In consultation with the Department for Health we are 2 Data Source: Ofsted. checking implementation regulations to help form our 3 Figures may not add up to total due to rounding. decision. 395W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 396W

Schools: Standards offering services to approximately 2,828 children. The Department does not hold information centrally on Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for how many children have enrolled in Sure Start in each Children, Schools and Families what results each local year since 2003. authority in England achieved against the criteria included in the National Challenge in each of the last Young People: Databases five years for which figures are available; what percentage of children met the criteria in each such Mrs. Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, year; what percentage of children were entitled to free Schools and Families how many (a) records and (b) school meals in each local education authority (LEA) data fields there are in (i) the National Pupil Database, in each such year, ranked from highest to lowest; what (ii) ContactPoint, (iii) the Common Assessment Framework rank each authority achieved in each of the criteria and eCAF, (iv) the Integrated Children’s System, (v) the included in the National Challenge; and for each local Wiring Up YouthJustice system, (vi) the YouthOffender education authority what its rank order number was Information System, (vii) RAISE, (viii) the Universal against the (a) National Challenge and (b) free school Monitoring and Evaluation Information System, (ix) meals criterion. [273188] the ASSET Young Offender Assessment Profile and (x) Onset. [265742] Ms Diana R. Johnson: The current National Challenge set to each maintained mainstream schools is for more Dawn Primarolo: The Department for Children, Schools than 30 per cent. of their Key Stage 4 cohort to achieve and Families is responsible for (i) the National Pupil five or more GCSEs at A*-C or the equivalent including Database, (ii) ContactPoint, (iii) the Common Assessment the subjects of English and mathematics. Framework and eCAF, and (iv) the Integrated Children’s This indicator is only available for 2006 and onwards System. although data for free school meals eligibility is available The YJB, DCSF and MOJ jointly sponsor Wiring for the requested years. Up Youth Justice (v), which is a programme, not a The available data has been placed in the House system for holding data. The YouthOffender Information Libraries. System (vi), RAISE (vii), and the Universal Monitoring and Evaluation Information System (viii), are commercially Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for supplied, local authority based systems, which the YJB Children, Schools and Families how many schools monitors and has some limited influence on. The Youth which achieved a rating of good or outstanding in their Justice Board, an executive agency jointly sponsored by last Ofsted inspection received a rating of satisfactory the Department for Children, Schools and Families and or inadequate for behaviour. [274586] the Ministry of Justice, is responsible for the ASSET Young Offender Assessment Profile (xi) and Onset (x), Mr. Coaker: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief which are national assessment tools, and not electronic Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. systems for holding data. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed in the I am able to provide the following information. House Libraries. National Pupil Database Letter from Christine Gilbert, 13 May 2009: As an indication of the number of records in The Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as National Pupil Database, there were around 7.3 million Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. full-time equivalent pupils in state funded primary, The ’inadequate’ inspection outcome was introduced in September secondary and special schools in 2008. 2005 as part of a four-point scale: outstanding, good, satisfactory, inadequate. Therefore, only schools which have been inspected The National Pupil Database is a longitudinal database under the current inspection framework have been included in linking pupil and student characteristics to school and this analysis. college learning aims and attainment information for Since the introduction of the current framework, no schools all children in maintained schools in England since have been judged to have outstanding or good overall effectiveness 2002. The National Pupil Database also holds individual- and inadequate behaviour. One school was judged to have outstanding pupil level attainment data for pupils in non-maintained overall effectiveness and satisfactory behaviour at its most recent and independent schools who partake in the tests or inspection, while 185 schools were judged to have good overall examinations. effectiveness and satisfactory behaviour at their most recent inspection. The National Pupil Database holds pupil and school A copy of this reply has been sent to the right hon. Jim Knight characteristics such as age, gender, ethnicity, attendance MP, Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and will be placed in the Library of both Houses. and exclusions (sourced from the School Census) for maintained schools only, matched to pupil-level attainment Sure Start Programme: Essex data (Foundation Stage Profile, Key Stage assessments and external examinations) collected from schools and local authorities by the Department, the National Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Assessment Agency and awarding bodies. The number Children, Schools and Families how many children in of data items included for each pupil will depend on (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point have enrolled in Sure where they are in the education cycle and on which tests Start in each year since 2003. [280219] and examinations they have taken. Dawn Primarolo: Essex county council currently has ContactPoint 60 Sure Start Children’s Centres offering access to services In March 2009 there were 12.4 million records on to around 49,722 children under five and their families. ContactPoint with a further 445 thousand records in In Castle Point borough council there are three centres the archive. ContactPoint has a number of data fields 397W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 398W which contain information supplied by each data source. of the factors contributing to a young person’s offending. Some fields can hold multiple entries, for example where Asset details are recorded on YOIS or RAISE. Asset is two addresses are known. Some fields hold information a national assessment tool, not a system. calculated by the system rather than supplied by data Onset sources and some are considered metadata, such as The Onset referral and assessment framework was verification levels and the date last updated. designed by the Centre for Criminological Research, eCAF University of Oxford for the YJB and was piloted by The national eCAF system is currently under the 13 pilot youth inclusion and support panels. development and not yet at the stage where (a) the Onset promotes the YouthJustice Board’s prevention number of records or (b) the number of data fields that strategy by helping to identify risk factors to be reduced will be held in the system can be defined. and protective factors to be enhanced. It also provides The Integrated Children’s System information which might be helpful in selecting appropriate interventions for those identified as needing early The Integrated Children’s System is a set of requirements intervention. that guide local authorities in implementing their local children’s social care case management systems. Each When collated, the information on Onset can be used local authority is separately responsible for its own IT for monitoring, as well as targeting specific sub-groups systems and case records, and information on these is where applicable, or providing progress data to steering not held centrally. groups. The new prevention counting rules require all Youth Justice Board-funded prevention programmes to Wiring Up Youth Justice programme use Onset as the basis for their referral and assessment The Wiring Up Youth Justice programme (WuYJ) is mechanisms. Onset details are recorded on UMIS and a business change programme of projects that improves RAISE. Onset is a national assessment tool, not a the ability of YOTs, the YJB and the secure estate to system. electronically access and exchange information that is More detailed information about these systems is not already held in existing case management systems. As held centrally and it would far exceed the cost threshold such, it is not a system where data is stored. However, to collect and collate it. WuYJ is developing the Youth Justice Management Information System, which from 2009/10 will store limited data extracted by YOTs from UMIS, YOIS and JUSTICE Raise. It is replacing the Themis system which previously carried out this function. Civil Service Bill: Draft The Youth Offending Information System Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The Youth Offending Information System (YOIS) is what his latest timetable is for a Civil Service Bill. a case management system developed and marketed by [276391] CACI (formerly Social Software Ltd), and made available to local authorities to purchase on behalf of their youth Mr. Wills: The draft Constitutional Renewal Bill offending teams. Over one hundred local authorities contained provisions in respect of the civil service. We have purchased licences to use this system. anticipate that the Bill will be introduced before the RAISE summer recess for carry-over into the next parliamentary session. The RAISE system (also known as Careworks YOT) is a case management system developed and marketed John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice by Careworks Ltd. and made available to local authorities what the latest timetable is for the parliamentary stages to purchase on behalf of their youth offending teams. of a Civil Service Bill. [276403] Over 40 local authorities have purchased licences to use this system. Mr. Wills: The draft Constitutional Renewal Bill Universal Monitoring and Evaluation Information System contained provisions in respect of the civil service. We (UMIS) anticipate that the Bill will be introduced before the summer recess for carry-over into the next parliamentary UMIS is an advanced information management system session. developed and marketed by CACI (formerly Social Software Ltd.) for use by all services involved in the Coroners: Operating Costs field of prevention. It records the whole intervention process from observations and concerns, through to Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice referral, assessment, panel, intervention and evaluation, what the cost to the public purse was of the operation providing an overview of the work undertaken with the of coroners’ courts in each of the last five years. child, young person or family so this can be evaluated [279650] on an ongoing basis and help point to how better outcomes can be achieved in the future. Bridget Prentice: The Ministry of Justice does not have any operational responsibility for the coroner service. Asset The costs of operating coroners’ courts are shared Research commissioned by the Youth Justice Board between coroners’ respective local authorities and police has established the main risk factors that lead to youth authorities, and no costing information is kept centrally offending and also the protective factors that can prevent by this Department. Data collected by Communities it. Asset provides a common, structured framework for and Local Government gives total revenue spending by assessment of all young people involved in the criminal local authorities on the coroner service over the last five justice system. It is a standard national assessment tool years as: 399W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 400W

These data are on the principal offence basis. The £ million figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to 2003-04 46.00 persons for whom these offences were the principal 2004-05 50.98 offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant 2005-06 54.21 has been found guilty of two or more offences, the 2006-07 59.08 offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty 2007-08 66.26 is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for These figures do not include capital spending by local which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. authorities or costs incurred by police forces, for which Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in no data are available. the autumn of 2009. Number of defendants who were proceeded against at magistrates Coroners: South West courts and found guilty at all courts for the offence of ‘Depositing litter’ under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 sec. 87, England and Wales, 1998 to 20071, 2 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of Proceeded against Found guilty the resources available to coroners’ offices in the Devon 1998 494 377 and Cornwall Police Authority area. [280268] 1999 501 390 20003 466 333 Bridget Prentice: The Ministry of Justice does not 2001 457 334 have operational responsibility for the coroner service 2002 332 256 and does not undertake assessments of resources available 2003 551 406 to coroners. This is a matter for individual coroners to 2004 908 645 negotiate with their local and police authorities. 2005 1,447 1,017 Nevertheless discussions are taking place in Devon 2006 2,022 1,340 and Cornwall including for example with HMCS over 2007 3,063 2,303 the possibility of using court facilities. 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they Crime Prevention: Finance were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty Is Imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory what proportion of his Department’s funding was allocated maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate to the Children’s Fund for youth crime prevention in and complete. However, It is important to note that these data have the last 12 month period for which information is been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by available. [279227] the courts, and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Dawn Primarolo: I have been asked to reply. taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire police force were only able to submit sample data for Up to 2005-06 there was a requirement for Children’s persons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates courts for Fund Partnerships to allocate 25 per cent. of their the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, expenditure to youth crime projects. The total funding these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been for the Children’s Fund for the period 2005-06 was £146 excluded from the table. Source: million. Therefore, £36.5 million of these funds were OCJR—E and A: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and allocated to youth crime prevention. In 2006-07 the Analysis Unit, Ministry of Justice requirement of the 25 per cent. quota was discontinued. Since April 2008 funding has been distributed to local HM Courts Service: Consultants authorities and pooled with other funding via the Area Based Grant. Directing funding through local authorities gives local areas the freedom and flexibility to base Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice spending decisions on local circumstances and the needs how much HM Courts Service spent on consultants in of local communities. each of the last five years. [280342]

Environmental Protection Act 1990 Bridget Prentice: HMCS came into existence in April 2005 and therefore figures prior to this date are not available. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prosecutions under section 87 of the Consultancy spend full year HMCS (£ million) Environmental Protection Act 1990 have been sought in each of the last 10 years; and how many such 2005-06 4.9 prosecutions were successful. [280258] 2006-07 3.3 2007-08 4.7 Claire Ward: The number of defendants who were proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty Data for April 2008 to March 2009 are currently at all courts for the offence of ‘Depositing litter’ under unavailable. A manual data collection exercise for this the Environmental Protection Act 1990 sec.87, in England period are scheduled to commence in the summer of and Wales, 1998 to 2007 (latest available) is shown in the 2009 with a target date for the availability of the data table. set of 31 October 2009. 401W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 402W

Parole Board Restorative Justice

Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many cases the Parole Board considered in (a) what the (a) community and (b) custody caseload of 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; [279233] the Probation Service was in March in each of the last five financial years. [279238] (2) how many and what proportion of offenders were granted oral hearings by the Parole Board in (a) Mr. Straw: The total community and pre-release 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; [279234] custodial offender caseload for England and Wales as at (3) how many of the offenders who were granted oral 31 March in each of the last five years was as follows: hearings by the Parole Board were subsequently granted parole in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. Supervised in Supervised in [279235] community1 custody

2004 144,076 61,110 Mr. Straw: In 2007-08 the Parole Board considered a 2005 151,443 61,799 total of 31,172 cases. Approximately 8 per cent. were 2006 166,557 63,697 considered by oral hearing, which equates to 2,072 2007 173,400 66,347 three member hearings and 459 one member hearings. 2008 178,652 67,535 Of those a total of 16 per cent. of offenders were 1 Includes those supervised on court orders as well as post-release recommended for release. supervision. In 2008-09 the Parole Board considered a total of These figures have been drawn from administrative 28,596 cases. Approximately 10 per cent. were considered IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording by oral hearing, which equates to 2,335 three member system, are subject to possible errors with data entry hearings and 422 one member hearings. Of those a total and processing. of 16 per cent. of offenders were recommended for release. Young Offenders: Crimes of Violence

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prisoners Release (1) how many people under 21 years old who were convicted of (a) grievous bodily harm and (b) violent Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice disorder under the provisions of the Powers of Criminal how many prisoners were granted compassionate Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 served less than (i) 12 release in each of the last five years. [279880] months and (ii) 18 months in custody in the last three years; [278926] (2) how many people under 18 years old who were Mr. Straw: The numbers of prisoners who were granted convicted of (a) grievous bodily harm and (b) violent permanent early release on compassionate grounds in disorder under the provisions of the Powers of each of the last five years is shown in the following Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 served less than tables. The data is split between prisoners serving fixed-term (i) 12 months and (ii) 18 months in custody in the last sentences (where the data is collected by calendar year) three years. [278927] and those serving indeterminate sentences (where the data is collected by financial year). Maria Eagle: The data provided show the number of Determinate sentenced prisoners offenders aged under 18 and between 18 and 20 sentenced Fixed-term prisoners to immediate custody and the length of the custodial sentence, in England and Wales. The data are for the 2004 4 offences of grievous bodily harm or violent disorder 2005 11 where such an offence was the principal offence for 2006 7 which the offender was sentenced. Where an offender 2007 5 has been sentenced for more than one offence the 2008 7 principal offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence Total 34 was imposed, where the same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences the principal offence is the one Indeterminate sentenced prisoners for which the statutory maximum is most severe. Number Almost all custodial sentences for offenders under 21 2004-05 4 are defined under the Powers of Criminal Courts 2005-06 2 (Sentencing) Act 2000. The Criminal Justice Act 2003 2006-07 2 introduced indeterminate sentences for public protection 2007-08 4 for grievous bodily harm and violent disorder from 2008-09 2 4 April 2005, which are also included in the tables. Total 14 Offenders aged under 18 and between 18 and 20 sentenced to immediate custody for grievous bodily harm1 and violent disorder, between 2005-07 These figures have been drawn from internal records Under 18s sentenced to immediate custody and the Public Protection Unit Database in the National 2005 2006 2007 Offender Management Service. As with any large scale Grievous bodily harm recording systems, they are subject to possible errors Up to 3 months n/a n/a n/a with data migration and processing. 403W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 404W

Offenders aged under 18 and between 18 and 20 sentenced to immediate custody If the offence was committed on or after 4 April 1 for grievous bodily harm and violent disorder, between 2005-07 2005, release arrangements are covered by the Criminal Under 18s sentenced to immediate custody Justice Act (CJA) 2003, where either a standard determinate 2005 2006 2007 sentence, Extended Sentence for Public Protection or Over 3 up to 6 months 56 63 51 Imprisonment for Public Protection would apply. The Over 6 up to 12 months 121 119 105 Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 amended Over 12 up to 18 months 40 54 61 the release arrangements for certain sentences from the Over 18 up to 3 years 70 76 73 CJA 2003. Life sentence prisoners are released under Over3upto4years 15 12 10 the terms of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997. 4 years 14 10 11 Average time served in prison for young offenders Over 4 including 5 years 7 13 15 can be found in table 9.2 of Offender Management Over 5 years including indeterminate 11 13 24 Caseload Statistics 2007 available at the following link: Total 334 360 350 http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ prisonandprobation.htm Violent disorder Up to 3 months n/a n/a n/a Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Over 3 up to 6 months 27 19 13 (1) how many people under 21 years old in (a) Essex Over 6 up to 12months 18 15 17 and (b) Castle Point who were convicted of (i) grievous Over 12 up to 18 months 23 17 25 bodily harm and (ii) violent disorder under the Over 18 up to 3 years 1 2 2 provisions of the Powers of Criminal Court Over3upto4years 0 0 0 (Sentencing) Act 2000 served less than (1) 12 months 4 years 0 0 0 and (2) 18 months in custody in each of the last five Over 4 including 5 years 0 0 0 years; [279279] Over 5 years including indeterminate 0 0 0 Total 69 53 57 (2) how many people under 18 years old in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point who were convicted of (i) grievous Offenders aged between 18 and 20 bodily harm and (ii) violent disorder under the 2005 2006 2007 provisions of the Powers of Criminal Court (Sentencing) Act 2000 served less than (A) 12 months Grievous bodily harm and (B) 18 months in custody in each of the last five Up to 3 months 10 3 7 years. [280224] Over 3 up to 6 months 55 61 31 Over 6 up to 12 months 66 62 87 Maria Eagle: The data provided show the number of Over 12 up to 18 months 203 239 238 offenders aged under 18 and between 18 and 20 sentenced Over 18 up to 3 years 243 221 267 to immediate custody and the length of the custodial Over3upto4years 55 33 25 sentence, in Essex police force area. Data are not available 4 years 48 24 48 for Castle Point. The data are for the offences of grievous Over 4 including 5 years 49 35 48 bodily harm or violent disorder where such an offence Over 5 years including indeterminate 58 107 117 was the principal offence for which the offender was Total 787 785 866 sentenced. Where an offender has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is the one Violent disorder for which the heaviest sentence was imposed, where the Up to 3 months 1 1 1 same sentence has been imposed for two or more offences Over 3 up to 6 months 14 13 14 the principal offence is the one for which the statutory Over 6 up to 12 months 35 14 28 maximum is most severe. Over 12 up to 18 months 61 43 57 Over 18 up to 3 years 33 36 25 Almost all custodial sentences for offenders under 21 Over3upto4years 4 2 0 are defined under the Powers of Criminal Courts 4years 1 5 2 (Sentencing) Act 2000. The Criminal Justice Act 2003 Over 4 including 5 years 0 1 0 introduced indeterminate sentences for public protection Over 5 years including indeterminate 0 1 1 for grievous bodily harm and violent disorder from Total 154 116 128 4 April 2005, which are also included in the table. n/a = Not applicable, the minimum term for a detention and training order for Offenders aged under 18 and 18-20 sentenced to immediate custody for grievous an offender aged under 18 is three months. bodily harm1 or violent disorder2 by length of sentence, Essex police force area, 1 Offences of: Wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm, Causing 2003-07 explosion or casting corrosive fluids with intent to do grievous bodily harm, Under 18’s malicious wounding, racially aggravated malicious wounding or GBH, 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 religiously aggravated wounding or GBH, racially or religiously aggravated wounding or GBH. Notes: Grievous bodily harm 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Up to 3 months 00112 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail Over 3 up to 6 months 20111 collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Over 6 up to 12 months 32001 Source: Over 12 up to 18 months 20223 OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Over18upto3years01203 Over3upto4years 00000 Sentencing data are given in this answer because data 4years 00000 on length of time served are not collected by specific Over 4 including 5 years 00000 offence. 405W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 406W

Offenders aged under 18 and 18-20 sentenced to immediate custody for grievous Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 amended bodily harm1 or violent disorder2 by length of sentence, Essex police force area, 2003-07 the release arrangements for certain sentences from the Under 18’s CJA 2003. Life sentence prisoners are released under 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 the terms of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997. Average time served in prison for young offenders Over 5 years including 00000 indeterminate can be found in table 9.2 of Offender Management Total 736410Caseload Statistics 2007 available at the following link: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ prisonandprobation.htm Violent disorder Up to 3 months 00000 Over 3 up to 6 months 00000 Over 6 up to 12 months 00000 Over 12 up to 18 months 00100 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Over 18 up to 3 years 00000 Over3upto4years 00000 Adult Education: Finance 4years 00000 Over 4 Including 5 years 00000 Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Minister of State, Over 5 years including 00000Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what indeterminate funding he plans to allocate to adult learning centres in Total 00100Derbyshire in 2009-10. [278776]

18-20 year olds Kevin Brennan [holding answer 9 June 2009]: The 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Government are investing £5 billion in adult skills in Grievous bodily harm 2009-10; this investment will fund a record three million adult learners. Up to 3 months 10001 Over 3 up to 6 months 20111 In addition to this, in the light of the economic Over 6 up to 12 months 01102downturn we have made available a significant package Over 12 up to 18 months 43593of support, focused on providing opportunities for those Over 18 up to 3 years 74334out of work to gain the skills to enter sustainable Over3upto4years 00110employment. 4years 00111 This includes £83 million to fund an additional 75,000 Over4including5years01400further education (FE) places over the next two years Over 5 years including 20014for those who have been out of work for six months or indeterminate longer. FE providers in Derbyshire have successfully Total 16 9 16 16 16 bid for £1.6 million of this package. We are also investing £100 million to support around 70,000 places in Violent disorder employment-focused activity for those out of work or Up to 3 months 00000under notice of redundancy. £3 million of this investment Over 3 up to 6 months 00000is planned to support 2,200 learners on response to Over 6 up to 12 months 00100redundancy programmes in Derbyshire. Over 12 up to 18 months 01100 Nationally, we also spend £210 million per year on Over 18 up to 3 years 02000informal adult learning, which can be delivered through Over3upto4years 00000a range of local providers. 4years 00000 The former Department for Innovation, Universities Over4including5years00000and Skills published the Learning Revolution White Over 5 years including 00000Paper in March 09 which sets out a cross-Government indeterminate strategy for informal learning in the 21st Century, with Total 00210 £30 million additional spend in 2009-10. 1 Offences of wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm. Causing explosion or casting corrosive fluids with intent to do grievous bodily harm, Further, for 2009-10 we are providing £21.5 million malicious wounding, racially aggravated malicious wounding or GBH, to support the key role that trade union and their union religiously aggravated wounding or GBH, racially or religiously aggravated wounding or GBH. learning representatives can play in driving up demand 2 Public Order Act 1986 sec. 2 for learning and skills in the workplace. Note: These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is Aviation: Government Assistance subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Source: OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Mr. Todd: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Sentencing data are given in this answer because data discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the on length of time served are not collected by specific home country rule in relation to the provision of offence. financial support on aircraft sales. [277260] If the offence was committed on or after the 4 April 2005, release arrangements are covered by the Criminal Ian Lucas: To date I have not had any discussions Justice Act (CJA) 2003, where either a standard determinate with my EU counterparts on the so called “home country sentence, extended sentence for public protection or rule” in relation to the provision of financial support on imprisonment for public protection would apply. The aircraft sales. 407W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 408W

Basic Skills Ian Lucas: The Better Regulation Executive (BRE) was established in May 2005. The staff costs were Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department £4.6 million in 2005/06 (85 per cent. of total spend); for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on £5.6 million in 2006/07 (88 per cent.); £6.4 million in the use of languages other than English and Welsh in 2007/08 (94 per cent.); and £6.0 million in 2008/09 (87 per cent.). advertising skills courses. [274061] The Local Better Regulation Office (LBRO) was Kevin Brennan: The Department for Business, Innovation established in September 2007. The staff costs were £0.8 and Skills do not advertise skills courses. million in 2007/08 and £1.7 million in 2008/09. Staff costs accounted for 50 per cent. and 37 per cent. of total Responsibility for advertising skills courses rest with spend respectively. the colleges or course providers. The 2007/08 LBRO figures account for a partial financial year from September 2007-March 2008 and Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Minister of State, reflect the fact that LBRO was not yet fully staffed. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to increase skills levels amongst 18 to Staff costs include salaries and other costs directly associated with staff in post. 24 year-olds. [278331]

Kevin Brennan: We now have the highest-ever level of Building Colleges for the Future Programme young adults participating in learning. We are taking a joined-up approach across government to ensure that Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department all young adults have the skills they need to obtain a for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he meaningful job with prospects. has made of the capacity of (a) the Skills Funding Young adults up to the age of 25 are entitled to Agency, (b) the Young People’s Learning Agency and provision leading up to and including a full Level 3 (c) local authorities to continue the system for prioritising qualification, which can be taken up through a wide further education capital projects once they take on range of learning provision. We are also widening functions of the Learning and Skills Council. [277847] participation in higher education, to ensure that all those with the potential and merit to benefit from HE Kevin Brennan: The structures that will come into are able and willing to do so. place following the dissolution of the LSC have been designed to ensure all the organisations have the capacity Government have rescued and expanded apprenticeships to discharge their responsibilities including those related over the last 10 years. We are providing over £1 billion to capital projects. We are working closely with the LSC of investment in apprenticeships for young people and to ensure a smooth transition and it is taking forward a adults in this financial year, supporting over 250,000 transition plan to implement shadow structures by starts. September 2009. The Budget announced a guaranteed offer of pre- employment training places for young people age 18-24 Climate Change who have been unemployed for 12 months. Over £120 million of new money will be available in England and the whole package is worth £1.7 billion. £83 million is Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department also available to fund an extra 75,000 new work-focused for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps his training opportunities for those who have been unemployed Department has taken to adapt to climate change in the for six months or more. last two years; [277645] Young people over 18 on out-of-work benefits are (2) what steps his Department has taken to adapt to already subject to conditionality, and we are working climate change in 2009 to date. [278295] with the Department for Work and Pensions to deliver an integrated employment and skills service so that Mr. Lammy: All Departments are actively involved in those on benefits will be given extra help to gain the the cross-Government Adapting to Climate Change skills they need and to find work. The service includes Programme, which aims to help society adapt to climate early skills screening of 18 to 24-year-olds, piloting of change. The role of the programme is to develop and mandatory skills health checks, as well as basic skills provide a comprehensive evidence base including adaptation and job-focused provision. We are also creating a new tools, to raise awareness of the need to adapt, to measure adult advancement and careers service offering information, success and to work across Government at all levels to advice and guidance. embed adaptation. Further details about the programme’s work can be found at www.defra.gov.uk/adaptation. Better Regulation Executive and Local Better As well as working together to tackle issues that Regulation Office: Pay affect all departments and their work, each Government Department is adapting to climate change in its own John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, operations and policies. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Over the last two years DIUS has built upon the much and what proportion of the annual budget for sustainable action plan, which sets out how the Department the (a) Better Regulation Executive and (b) Local contributes to addressing climate change. A Science and Better Regulation Office has been spent on staff costs Innovation White Paper has been published, including in each year since inception. [276292] proposals on fostering private and public sector innovation 409W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 410W which will help to identify technological and social date the application was received. This is in line with the solutions needed for climate change adaptation and OFT’s target of processing 75 per cent. of applications mitigation. within 90 days. DIUS has supported the Higher Education Funding Council for England and the Learning and Skills Council John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department in putting sustainability at the centre of their investment for Business, Innovation and Skills what the maximum strategies. length of time is that a company which requires a consumer credit licence may continue to trade without DIUS has funded the Research Councils’ “Living a licence while awaiting a decision from the Office of with Environmental Change” (LWEC) initiative, a Fair Trading on licence renewal. [277508] programme to increase resilience to and reduce costs of, environmental change, addressing the associated pressures Kevin Brennan: No business may legally engage in on natural resources, ecosystem services, economic growth Consumer Credit Act regulated activities without a and social progress. consumer credit licence. DIUS has also supported the Research Councils’ In accordance with section 29 of the Consumer Credit Energy Programme, bringing together energy-related Act 1974, licences submitted for renewal prior to their research and training across the councils to address expiry date will continue in force until the OFT decision climate change and security of energy supply and to on its application and, if there is an appeal against the implement the Science and Innovation White Paper OFT decision, until the appeals process is completed. proposals on fostering private and public sector innovation. The OFT aims to process 75 per cent. of applications for high risk category activities within 90 days. Cases Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minster of State, where further investigation is required or where regulatory Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what action such as the imposition of requirements is considered estimate he has made of his Department’s potential appropriate will take more than 90 days. gross (a) costs and (b) savings arising from its climate change adaptation measures in the next three years. Data Service [277720] Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Lammy: It is not currently possible to provide for Business, Innovation and Skills what the functions estimates of the potential costs and savings over the of the Data Service are in relation to the provision of next three years. It has, however, been shown in the information for further education; and if he will make a Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change that statement. [278246] timely and well-targeted climate adaptation measures will yield benefits in excess of their costs. The main Kevin Brennan: The Data Service was announced in rationale for investment to address climate risk will be the FE Reform White Paper in March 2006 and launched to reduce the UK’s vulnerability to longer-term climate in April 2008 to become the single authoritative source change impacts. of data for post-16 further education, with sole responsibility The Government are undertaking a Climate Change for its collection and dissemination. Risk Assessment and Economic Analysis, which will It is an independently managed entity, formed from provide estimates of the costs and benefits of adaptation and still within the Learning and Skills Council. It is to the UK. This analysis will be presented to Parliament responsible for providing a service to the whole FE within three years of the Climate Change Act coming in Sector and reports to a steering group with representation to force. from across the FE sector. The Data Service brings together a range of functions Consumer Credit: Licensing related to data collection and dissemination and is building to a mature service able to support all data John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department collection and primary dissemination activities required for Business, Innovation and Skills how many companies for the academic year 2010-11. The Data Service collects whose consumer credit licence had expired were still a range of information including data from providers trading while awaiting a decision on renewal of the on learners and learning aims, for operational purposes. licence in each month since January 1997; and for how Data includes information on learners in FE colleges, long on average each such company had been waiting in Train to Gain and Apprenticeships collected via the Individualised Learner Record. each of those months. [277310] The Data Service works closely with the Department Kevin Brennan: The OFT does not routinely hold all on the production and dissemination of publicly available the data requested. statistical information, including a series of National Statistics publications, the most recent of which was In accordance with section 29 of the Consumer Credit released on 26 March 2009: Act 1974, licences submitted for renewal prior to their http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfrmar09/ expiry date will continue in force until the OFT decision on its application and, if there is an appeal against the Departmental Data Protection OFT decision, until the appeals process is completed. Since December 2008, when the OFT established a James Brokenshire: To ask the Minister of State, dedicated team to process and allocate high-risk credit Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how applications, the average processing time for high risk many notifications his Department made to the Information renewal applications has been 59 working days from the Commissioner in the year ended 30 April 2009 in respect 411W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 412W of the loss or mishandling of personal information or On premises, initial modelling indicates that the cost data; what was notified in each such case; and how of reducing the estate size could be around £32 million, many individuals were the subjects of personal information but that annual savings of up to £17 million could be or data in respect of which such notifications were achieved thereafter. made. [278731] The exact costs will depend on a range of factors and the LSC is drawing up a strategy to identify the most Kevin Brennan: None. cost effective option for each part of the estate. We also Departmental Training expect further savings to be realised through rationalisation of IT systems and better operation of shared services. Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department There will be costs associated with advertising and for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the recruitment of the new chief executive posts. For the answer of 26 March 2009, Official Report, column chief executive of the National Apprenticeship Service 697W, on departmental training, which Minister took they were approximately £78,000. Recruitment of the part in (a) training on the European Union, (b) training chief executive of Skills Funding and the chief executive on Cabinet Committees, (c) foreign language lessons of the Young People’s Learning Agency is still under and (d) media training; what each course involved; way. Most other staff will transfer through an internal when each course took place; and what the total cost of matching process. We do not anticipate a significant each session was. [268566] shortfall in numbers, and any associated recruitment costs are expected to be minimal. Kevin Brennan: Identifying Ministers who undertake This Department, and the Department for Children, training would, or would be likely to, discourage Schools and Families, are continuing to refine the transition participation in future training sessions, acting as a costs as part of the detailed design work. disincentive for Ministers to undertake formal professional development. Exports: Government Assistance The Cabinet Committee and European Union courses incurred no cost to the Department for Innovation Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Universities and Skills. The short briefing session on Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how each topic was delivered by the National School of many British businesses UK Trade and Investment Government in September 2008. The first covered an have assisted in exporting for the first time in each of overview of cabinet committee processes. The EU session the last 36 months. [277787] similarly looked at structures, processes hierarchy and the relationship with Whitehall. Ian Lucas: Data for the past three years are available from UK Trade and Investment’s (UKTI) Performance The foreign language lessons have cost £1,343 to date. and Impact Monitoring Survey (PIMS). Results reported These lessons in Italian have taken place weekly since in March 2009 for the previous year confirm that UKTI October 2008. assisted some 20,700 businesses to exploit opportunities The media training course involved two sessions in in overseas markets. The survey sample indicates that April 2008. The overall cost for the two sessions was some 2,200 of these were not yet exporting and some £1,276. The course looked at developing skills to 3,500 had been exporting for less than two years, at the communicate the Minister’s remit in a particular area. time of interview. All of these courses were one-to-one sessions delivered Equivalent figures for the two previous years are: to Ministers. 2007-08: some 15,900 businesses assisted, of which some 1,100 Education: Civil Service Agencies were not yet exporting and some 2,700 had been exporting for less than two years; 2006-07: some 15,000 businesses assisted, of which some 1,200 Mr. Laws: To ask the Minister of State, Department were not yet exporting and some 2,400 had been exporting for for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most less than two years. recent estimate is of the final (a) administrative, (b) recruitment, (c) staffing, (d) building, (e) ICT and Fire and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations 1988 (f) marketing and advertising costs of establishing the (i) Skills Funding Agency, (ii) Young People’s Learning Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Agency, (iii) National Apprenticeship Service and (iv) Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Adult Advancement and Careers Service; and what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the such costs had been incurred on the latest date for provisions of the Fire and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) which figures are available. [275073] Regulations 1988. [277854]

Kevin Brennan: In designing the new structures we are Kevin Brennan: In 2000, DTI published a report: working to an administration budget which is set at the “Effectiveness of the Furniture and Furnishings (Fire) same level as the LSC currently operates within. There (Safety) Regulations 1988”. Copies of this were placed will be some short term costs associated with the transition in the libraries of the House. The report showed that, at to the new arrangements, and work is ongoing to provide a conservative estimate, the Regulations had saved at robust estimates of these. least 710 lives (1,860 when additional factors are taken Ensuring that staff transfers are consistent with TUPE, into consideration) and prevented at least 5,770 injuries Cabinet Office guidance and employment legislation from 1988 to 1997. In March this year, this Department will cost roughly £3 million. We also estimate it will cost commissioned Greenstreet Berman Ltd. to research the around £2 million to £3 million to secure broad current effectiveness of the regulations. Their report comparability of pensions. should be completed by autumn 2009. 413W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 414W

Higher Education: Cleethorpes April 2008-March 2009 Lease paid (excluding VA T ) Shona McIsaac: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many residents Provincial House, 25 Oxford Road, Bournemouth, 143,650 of Cleethorpes constituency were in higher education in BH8 8EY Stuart House, St Johns Street, City Road, 160,445 (a) 1997-98 and (b) 2007-08. [279449] Peterborough, PE1 5DD Dalton House, Dalton Way, Middlewich, CW10 25,272 Mr. Lammy: The latest available information is shown 0HU in the table. Figures for the 2008/09 academic year will Allergate House, Belmont Business Park, Belmont, 125,000 be available in January 2010. Durham, DH1 1TW Oak Tree Court, Binley Business Park, Harry 176,375 1 2 Enrolments from Cleethorpes parliamentary constituency UK higher education Weston Road, Coventry, CV3 2UN institutions academic years 1997/98 and 2007/08 Venture/Progress House, Regents Court, Guard 73,000 Academic year Enrolments Street, Workington, CA14 4EW 1997/98 1,685 1 Mallard Way, Pullman Business Park, Derby, 49,000 DE24 8GX 2007/08 1,920 Foliot House, Budshead Road, Plymouth, PL6 5XR 165,000 1 Covers undergraduate and postgraduate students enrolled on full-time and part-time courses. Penhaligon House, Princes Street, Truro, TR1 1DZ 50,400 2 Parliamentary constituency is defined by full and valid home postcodes Richmond Court, Emperor Way, Exeter Business 21,250 recorded on the HESA student record. Park, Exeter, EX1 3QS Note: Redwing House, Hedgerows Business Park, 288,270 Figures are on a snapshot basis as at 1 December and are rounded to the nearest Colchester Road, Chelmsford, CM2 5PB five. Source: Conway House, 33-35 Worcester Street, Gloucester, 198,750 Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). GL1 3AJ Eagle Point, Segensworth, Fareham, P015 5TD 285,500 Learning and Skills Council 5 Brook Court, Whittington Hall, Whittington 72,269 Road, Worcester, WR5 2ZX Grosvenor Road, 45 Grosvenor Road, St Albans, 940,705 Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Minister of State, AL13AW Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who 4 Earls Court, Henry Boot Way, Hull, HU4 7DY 52,149 from his Department attended the reviews between 26 Kings Hill Avenue, Kings Hill, West Mailing, 180,000 Ministers and the Learning and Skills Council’s ME19 4AE Chairman and Chief Executive held on (a) 16 June Citigate, Longridge Road, Preston, PR2 5BQ 52,300 2008, (b) 21 October 2008 and (c) 16 December 2008; 17a Meridian East, Meridian Business Park, 208,949 and if he will make a statement. [269957] Leicester, LEI9 1UU Alpha Court, Unit IB, Alpha Court Business Park, 40,625 Kingsley Road, Lincoln, LN6 3TA Kevin Brennan: Review meetings are held jointly with Centre Point, 103 New Oxford Street, London, 1,062,748 the Department for Children Schools and Families. WC1A 1DR Each meeting is chaired by the Parliamentary Under- Boardman House, 64 The Broadway, Stratford, 232,115 Secretary of State for Further Education, and attended London, El5 INT by the director of the Department’s Learning and Skills Dumayne House, 1 Fox Lane, Palmers Green, 295,610 Performance Directorate. Other Ministers and officials London, N13 4AB Canius House, 1 Scarbrook Road, Croydon, CRO 269,000 from both Departments also attend depending on the 1SQ agenda. Central House, 3 Lampton Road, Hounslow, TW3 235,345 1HY Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Arndale House, Arndale Centre, Manchester, M4 423,580 for Business, Innovation and Skills, pursuant to the 3AQ answer of 12 May 2009, Official Report, column 672W, The Plaza, Old Hall Street, Liverpool, L3 9QJ 87,372 on the Learning and Skills Council, how much each Latimer House, Langford Business Park, Langford 265,600 lease held by the (a) Learning and Skills Council and Locks, Kidlington, 0X5 1GG Cheylesmore House North, Quinton Road, 610,620 (b) Higher Education Funding Council for England Cheylesmore, Coventry, CV1 2WT cost in the most recent year for which figures are Cheylesmore House South, Quinton Road, 1,000,000 available. [276243] Cheylesmore, Coventry, CV1 2WT Security House, Mile Lane, Cheylesmore, Coventry, 24,658 Kevin Brennan: The following table illustrates the CV21 2NL lease paid from April 2008 to March 2009 for each Lakeside 500, Old Chapel Way, Broadland Business 52,650 building occupied by the Learning and Skills Council Park, Norwich, NR7 OWG Royal Pavilion, Summerhouse Road, Moulton Park 266,500 and Higher Education Funding Council. Ind Estate, Northampton, NN3 6BJ April 2008-March 2009 7 Pioneer Business Park, Amy Johnson Way, Clifton 97,465 Lease paid (excluding Moorgate, York, YO30 4TN VA T ) C/O MLS Business Centre, City Gate East, Toll 122,055 House Hill, Nottingham, NGl 5FY The Learning and Skills Council Hollinswood House, Suite Gl, Stafford Court, 24,300 Woburn Court, 2 Railton Road, Woburn Road Ind 51,000 Telford, TF3 3DD Estate, Kempston, MK42 7PN Kingston House, Blackbrook Park Avenue, Taunton, 48,527 Pacific House, Imperial Way, Reading, RG2 0TF 303,996 TA1 2PX NTI Building, 15 Bartholomew Row, Birmingham, 526,590 The Straddle, Victoria Quays, Wharf Street, 335,000 B5 5JU Sheffield, S2 5SY Units 6 and 7 Castle Court, 2 Castlegate Business 69,344 Festival Way, Festival Park, Stoke-On-Trent, ST1 69,700 Park, Dudley, DY1 4RD 5TQ 415W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 416W

April 2008-March 2009 countries have seen manufacturing output increase on Lease paid (excluding the month, including increases in the UK of 0.2 per VA T ) cent. in both months. Felaw Makings, 42 Felaw Street, Ipswich, IP2 8SJ 133,925 Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries Technology House, 48-54 Goldsworth Road, 178,416 Woking, GU21 6LE Princes House, 53 Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 332,972 Peter Luff: To ask the Minister of State, Department 3XB for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Wynyard House, Wynyard Park, Billingham,TS22 65,088 applications had been made for assistance under the 5TB automotive assistance programme on the latest date for Moongate House, 5th Avenue Business Park, Team 210,000 Valley, Gateshead, NEl1 OHF which figures are available; how many payments had St Lawrence House, 29-31 Broad Street, Bristol, BS1 261,472 been made under the programme on the latest date for 2HF which figures are available; and how much had been Mercury House, 4 Manchester Road, Bradford, BD5 422,000 paid under the scheme on that date. [278603] OQL The Bora Building, Westlea Campus, Westlea Down, 192,300 Ian Pearson [holding answer 8 June 2009]: We are Swindon, SN5 7EZ currently in detailed discussions with a number of businesses about their applications for funding under the Automotive Higher Education Funding Council for England Assistance Programme (AAP). Northavon House, Coldharbour Lane, Bristol, BS16 739,241 1QD There have been more than 70 further requests for 12th Floor Centre Point 03 New Oxford Street 205,590 information on the scheme with the AAP team working LONDON WC1A 1DD with companies resulting in around 15 approaches being developed into detailed discussions with BIS for serious applications. Manufacturing Industries The details are commercially sensitive and subject to agreement. However, some details about the support Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department provided under the AAP will become available in due for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he course. has made of the effects of Bank of England interest rates on levels of manufacturing output in each of the Mr. Kilfoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans [278852] to take to assist the automotive industries in the next 12 months. [278963] Ian Lucas: No assessment of the effects of Bank of England interest rates on levels of manufacturing output Ian Lucas: The Automotive Assistance Package (AAP). in each of the last 12 months. The primary aim of this package of up to £2.3 billion is However, the reduction in the bank rate to a record to support the continued delivery of investment that low of 0.5 per cent. in March 2009, along with a will create or sustain jobs, develop cutting-edge technology, £125 billion programme of quantitative easing, and bring special value to the UK, reduce CO2 emissions fiscal support from both discretionary fiscal action and and maintain R&D in UK vehicle manufacturing. automatic stabilisers worth 4 per cent. of GDP in In addition to the AAP, Government have taken a 2009-10, has formed part of a strong macroeconomic range of other actions to help secure the long-term policy stimulus to the economy. These actions help future of the automotive sector in the UK. For instance, provide the conditions for a UK economic recovery. at the end of 2008, the UK Government helped secure The world economy is experiencing its first recession ¤8 billion for the automotive industry from the European since the second world war, driven by the global financial Investment Bank. Government have also provided crisis, and governments around the world have adopted considerable support for the development of skills and similar policies to those in the UK to help encourage a training in the automotive sector and continues to return to growth. do so. Automotive firms are also eligible for wider Government Manufacturing Industries: Competition support for businesses such as the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, the Working Capital Scheme and other Mr. Bone: To ask the Minister of State, Department “Real Help for Business” Local Business Links also for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment provide a range of free business advice and support he has made of the competitiveness of manufacturing services. industry. [279047] A scrappage scheme to help boost the automotive industry was announced in the Budget and operational Ian Lucas: According to official ONS data, the UK from 18 May. The scheme will run until 28 February manufacturing sector while suffering a sharp decrease 2010 or until the Government funding runs out. in production, has not been worse affected during the £300 million of Government funding has been allocated, current global recession than manufacturing in some enough to provide up to 300,000 new vehicle sales. other advanced economies. In the year to March 2009, The industry led New Automotive Innovation and manufacturing output fell by 12.7 per cent. in the UK, Growth Team (NAIGT) published its report last month. compared to falls of 35.0 per cent. in Japan, 22.9 per Key recommendations, aimed at both industry and cent. in Germany, 17.7 per cent. in France, and by Government, included the establishment of a joint 14.9 per cent. in the US. In March and April 2009, some industry/Government Automotive Council to develop 417W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 418W and implement a long term strategic framework for the Admin budget 2007-08 Admin budget 2008-09 industry; and proposals to focus the UK automotive R&D agenda around a new industry-consensus technology Student Loans 58.541 million 78,143,000 roadmap. The report also included more detailed subsidiary Company recommendations focussed around further improving Technology Strategy 429.877 million 529.889 million Board the UK business environment and developing a stronger, UKCES 60 8.444 million more competitive supply chain. The Government’s intention 1 Includes all expenses incurred by the council is to publish its formal response to the NAIGT report 2 Unaudited/provisional figure until accounts published in July 2009 during the summer. 3 Ceased to exist from 2008-09 4 Includes 22.007 million relating to administrative support contracts 5 Includes 18.745 million relating to administrative support contracts Motor Vehicles: West Midlands 6 Set-up costs only

Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, Department Overseas Students: Fees and Charges for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the car scrappage scheme in the West Midlands. [279357] Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) Ian Lucas: It is really too early to expect to see an how much has been received by universities in fees from impact by region. foreign students taught in higher education institutions To date more than 60,000 new cars have been ordered in each year since 2006; [269161] via the car scrappage scheme. While we anticipate being (2) when he plans to answer question 269161, tabled able to give a breakdown of orders by region in due on 1 April 2009, on fees received from foreign students course, data are not yet available that would allow taught in higher education institutions. [278594] accurate regional figures to be provided. Mr. Lammy: The latest published information on Non-departmental Public Bodies course fees paid by non-EU domiciled students is shown in the table. This is the only centrally-held information Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department available regarding institutions’ income from foreign for Business, Innovation and Skills what the administration students. This is shown alongside the total income of budget was for each non-departmental public body that higher education institutions in England. receives funding from his Department in the last three Non-EU domiciled students HE course fees and total income English higher years for which figures are available. [276160] education institutions, academic year 2006/07 and 2007/08 £ 000 Kevin Brennan: The Department for Innovation, Non-EU domiciled Universities and Skills was formed in June 2007, following course fees Total income the Machinery of Government changes, as a result we 2006/07 1,472,893 17,591,618 are only able to provide information from 2007-08. The 2007/08 1,619,689 19,400,191 administration budget figures for NDPBs which receive Source: funding from the Department are as follows: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) student finance record.

Admin budget 2007-08 Admin budget 2008-09 Press: Competition Copyright Tribunal 45,000 61,000 Council for Science 1150 1150 and Technology Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Design Council will make an assessment of the contracts (a) awarded Budget 4,332,000.7 2,878,000.4 in the newspaper and magazine wholesale distribution Actual 4,257,000.3 3,547,000.4 market in the last six months and (b) likely to be awarded in that market in the next six months for the purposes of monitoring levels of competitiveness in HEFCE 9.099 million 11.360 million that market. [274235]

Investors in People UK 2.41million 2.385 million Pay 1.782 million 1.621 million Kevin Brennan: It is for the Office of Fair Trading Non-pay 628,000 764,000 (OFT), as the UK’s independent competition authority, to consider such matters. I understand the OFT is aware LSC 211 million 2189 million of, and is actively monitoring recent developments in Office for Fair Access 500,000 548,000 this market. It will carefully consider representations Quality Improvement 6 million 3n/a from interested parties about the potential for these to Agency impact on competition. It will also take any such Research Councils 101.74 million 106.48 million representations into account in the context of taking its Sector Skills 9.213 million 3n/a final decision on whether to refer the newspaper and Development Agency magazine supply sector to the Competition Commission Strategic Advisory n/a 250,000 for a market investigation. The public consultation on Board for Intellectual Property Policy its draft decision not to make such a reference closed (SABIP) on 19 May. 419W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 420W

Mr. Mark Field: To ask the Minister of State, Department guide and (c) the test of independence of a participant for Business, Innovation and Skills on how many occasions applied in the guide; and if he will make a statement. in the last month (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his [278138] Department have had discussions with representatives of the Office of Fair Trading on the newspaper and Kevin Brennan [holding answer 4 June 2009]: In magazine distribution market. [274398] issuing guidance the Department is not providing a definitive interpretation of the legislation as that is a Kevin Brennan: Ministers have had no discussions matter for the courts. The Department provides guidance with the OFT about this matter during the last month. on statues in order to help business and consumers to Officials have similarly had no substantive discussions understand whether a particular law applies to them or with the OFT on this issue though they have spoken to their circumstances. This guidance is not a statement with colleagues at the OFT about practical matters of the law, but is simply the Department’s view of its relating to my Noble Friend the Secretary of State’s meaning. decision on the future of the statutory undertakings The section of the Trading Schemes Guide referred from newspaper wholesalers which was announced on to attempts to describe the nature of the organiser and 20 April. Officials have also sought input as necessary participant relationship in trading schemes which are from the OFT in order to provide accurate responses to subject to the regime as set out in part XI of the Fair certain recent Parliamentary questions relating to the Trading Act 1973, section 118 (1) (3) and (4). In this OFT’s work on newspaper and magazine distribution context, the relevant definition of “participant” is that issues. in the Fair Trading Act 1973, section 118(8). The legislation regulating trading schemes include Part XI of the Fair Regulation: Public Consultation Trading Act 1973 amended by the Trading Schemes Act 1996, the Trading Schemes Regulations 1997, Trading John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department Scheme (Exclusion) Regulations 1997, Trading Schemes for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what (Exclusion) (Amendment) Regulations 1997. The guide percentage of suggestions received on the Better Regulation covers this legislation. website identified a regulatory conflict in the last 12 months. [274370] Unemployment

Ian Lucas: In the last financial year (2008-09), the Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department Better Regulation Executive’s website for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what percentage of (a) males aged 16 to 18, (b) females aged www.betterregulation.gov.uk 16 to 18, (c) males aged 19 to 24 and (d) females aged received 270 ideas. 19 to 24 years were not in education, employment or Of these, 106 (39 per cent.) submitted indicated a training in the first quarter of each year since 1997. ‘Conflict in Regulations’. [275869] Supermarkets Kevin Brennan: The following tables show estimates of people aged1 16 to 18 and 19 to 24 not in employment, Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department education or training (NEET) in England. These estimates for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform what are from the quarter 1 Labour Force Survey (LFS) in all recent discussions he has had with (a) Tescos, (b) years that the required data are available. Asda, (c) Sainsbury’s, (d) Morrisons, (e) Waitrose We are unable to provide NEET estimates back to and (f) The Co-op on the introduction of (i) a revised 1997 from the LFS as all the data necessary to produce Groceries Supply Code of Practice and (ii) a them are not available on datasets prior to quarter 2 supermarket ombudsman. [275079] 2000. However for 16-18 year olds data are available from 1997 using the definitive source for this age group Kevin Brennan [holding answer 12 May 2009]: Ministers and are published annually in a DCSF Statistical First and BIS officials hold regular meetings with businesses Release. The most recent release is due to be updated on to discuss a range of issues as part of the process of 16 June 2009 and will be available at policy development and delivery. As was the case with http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000849/ previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s index.shtml. practice to provide details of all such meetings. There Data from the LFS for more recent periods up to have not been any recent meetings with the named quarter 4 2008 are available from official statistics last grocery retailers specifically held to discuss the Competition published by DCSF in February 2009 (see following Commission’s (CC) proposals to strengthen the groceries link). These are due to be updated to include quarter 1 supply code of practice (GSCOP), or to set up a GSCOP 2009 on 23 June 2009. ombudsman. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000751/ index.shtml Trading Schemes 1Age used is the respondent’s academic age, which is defined as their age at the preceding 31 August. Natascha Engel: To ask the Minister of State, 16 to 18 year olds not in employment education or training (NEET). Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Male Female definition his Department uses for a participant in a NEET % NEET % trading scheme in its publication The Trading Scheme Guide; what the basis in legislation is for (a) the 2001 91,000 10.1 78,000 9.2 description of a participant contained in the guide, (b) 2002 100,000 10.8 88,000 9.9 the key test as to who is not a participant applied in the 2003 108,000 11.3 90,000 10.0 421W Written Answers17 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 422W

16 to 18 year olds not in employment education or training (NEET). http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000751/ Male Female index.shtml NEET % NEET % 16 to 24 year olds not in employment, education or training (NEET). 2004 101,000 10.5 88,000 9.6 Q1 NEET Percentage) 2005 106,000 10.8 98,000 10.4 2001 671,000 13.0 2006 128,000 12.9 97,000 10.3 2002 701,000 13.3 2007 122,000 12.1 90,000 9.6 2003 729,000 13.6 2008 101,000 10.1 92,000 9.7 2004 677,000 12.3 Source: 2005 743,000 13.1 Labour Force Survey, quarter 1 Base: 2006 801,000 14.0 16 to 18 year olds, England 2007 828,000 14.1 19 to 24 year olds not in employment education or training (NEET). 2008 810,000 13.6 Male Female 1 Age used is the respondent’s academic age, which is defined as their NEET % NEET % age at the preceding 31 August. Source: 2001 173,000 10.2 330,000 19.1 Labour Force Survey, quarter 1 2002 190,000 11.1 323,000 18.6 Base: 2003 199,000 11.3 333,000 18.9 16 to 24 year olds, England 2004 179,000 9.8 310,000 17.1 2005 205,000 10.9 334,000 18.1 Yes Loans 2006 216,000 11.3 360,000 19.2 2007 249,000 12.6 367,000 18.8 John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2008 256,000 12.6 361,000 18.3 for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) for what reason Source: Yes Loans has been allowed to continue trading after its Labour Force Survey, quarter 1 Base: consumer credit licence expired in June 2008; [277312] 19 to 24 year olds, England (2) when a decision will be made on the renewal of Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department Yes Loans’ consumer credit licence. [277311] for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what percentage of people aged 16 to 24 years old were not in Kevin Brennan: Yes Loans’ licence did not expire in education, employment and training in the first quarter June 2008. Yes Loans submitted a valid application to of each year for which figures are available. [275870] renew its consumer credit licence before the licence was due to expire. In accordance with section 29 of the Kevin Brennan: The following table shows estimates Consumer Credit Act, the licence continues in force of people aged1 16 to 24 not in employment, education until the OFT reaches a decision on its application and, or training (NEET) in England. The earliest estimates if there is an appeal against the OFT decision, until the are from the quarter 1 2001 Labour Force Survey appeals process is completed. (LFS), the earliest quarter 1 for which figures are available. The OFT is aware of concerns and has been working Data from the LFS for more recent periods up to with Yes Loans in considering certain matters relating quarter 4 2008 are available from official statistics last to its business practices. However I am sure you will published by DCSF in February 2009 (see following appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to link). These are due to be updated to include quarter 1 comment further on this matter while a review is still 2009 on 23 June 2009. under way. 1MC Ministerial Corrections17 JUNE 2009 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

Ministerial Corrections Number of cases taken to Wednesday 17 June 2009 Number of court that cases accepted referred an for Number Number of alternative prosecution prosecuted convictions sanction WORK AND PENSIONS 2005-06 9,814 10,262 8,740 170 Social Security Benefits: Fraud 2006-07 10,166 8,964 6,861 206 2007-08 10,288 10,274 7,745 278 Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for n/a = Not available Work and Pensions how many cases of potential fraud Notes: were investigated where the Department considered 1. All cases for criminal investigation are taken forward as having the there to be a high probability of prosecution in each of potential to result in prosecution; alternative sanctions of caution and administrative penalty are only offered on the basis that, if refused, the last five years for which information is available; prosecution remains an option for the Department. Decisions on how many cases of potential fraud were taken to court; whether a sanction and which type is appropriate are, rightly, only and how many cases achieved a conviction. [244731] made when an investigation has been completed. [Official Report, 21 May 2009, Vol. 492, c. 1526W.] 2. The number of cases prosecuted each year may exceed the number of cases referred for prosecution due to the length of time that can Letter of correction from Jim Knight: occur between referral and an available court date. An error has been identified in the written answer Sources: 1. Prosecution and conviction data for England and Wales from given to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris DWP/DH Legal Group Grayling) on 21 May 2009. 2. Number of cases taken to court that accepted an alternative In the original second table, the figure given for the sanction (England and Wales only) from DWP/DH Legal Group 3. Prosecution and conviction data for Scotland from FIBS and number of prosecutions for housing benefit fraud in FRAIMS 2005-06 was incorrectly cited as 6,041. The revised 4. Number of cased referred for prosecution, administrative penalties answer also contains an additional footnote relating to and cautions data from FIBS and FRAIMS housing benefit. Additionally figures for housing benefit are as follows: The correct answer should have been: Prosecutions Convictions Mr. McNulty: The available information for DWP administered benefits is in the following table. 2003-04 4,601 3,747 2004-05 5,544 4,688 Number of 2005-06 7,717 6,234 cases 2006-07 6,023 5,860 taken to 2007-08 6,611 6,493 Number of court that Notes: cases accepted 1. The decision to prosecute is taken by the appropriate local authority. referred an 2. Figures from HOBOD are subject to revision when new or revised for Number Number of alternative data are received from local authorities and uploaded by the Department. prosecution prosecuted convictions sanction Source: 2003-04 10,048 10,358 9,027 n/a Housing Benefits Operational Database (HOBOD) using local authority housing benefit administrative returns 2004-05 10,915 10,295 9,219 261

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 294 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 294 Housing Market...... 293 Lending (Small Businesses)...... 291 SCOTLAND...... 285 Local Authority Finance...... 292 Automotive Industry...... 285 Public Expenditure...... 287 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 17 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 15WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 20WS Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Terrorism Act 2000 (Carlile Report) ...... 20WS Council ...... 15WS UK Inward Investment ...... 15WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 17WS TREASURY ...... 16WS Coal and Carbon Capture Storage...... 17WS The Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Regulations...... 16WS AFFAIRS...... 17WS Animal Health and Veterinary Performance Targets ...... 17WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 406W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 389W Adult Education: Finance...... 406W Children: Databases...... 389W Aviation: Government Assistance ...... 406W Children: Day Care ...... 389W Basic Skills...... 407W Children: Protection...... 390W Better Regulation Executive and Local Better Departmental Energy...... 391W Regulation Office: Pay ...... 407W GCSE ...... 391W Building Colleges for the Future Programme ...... 408W Grammar Schools: Admissions...... 392W Climate Change ...... 408W Integrated Children’s System...... 392W Consumer Credit: Licensing...... 409W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 392W Data Service...... 410W Play: Greater Manchester...... 393W Departmental Data Protection...... 410W Pre-school Education: Milton Keynes...... 393W Departmental Training ...... 411W Pupil Referral Units ...... 394W Education: Civil Service Agencies ...... 411W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 394W Exports: Government Assistance ...... 412W School Meals ...... 394W Fire and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations Schools: Standards...... 395W 1988 ...... 412W Sure Start Programme: Essex ...... 395W Higher Education: Cleethorpes...... 413W Young People: Databases ...... 396W Learning and Skills Council...... 413W Manufacturing Industries ...... 415W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 367W Manufacturing Industries: Competition...... 415W Cotswolds Conservation Board...... 367W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 416W Council Housing...... 367W Motor Vehicles: West Midlands ...... 417W Council Housing: Finance ...... 368W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 417W Council Tax: Statistics...... 368W Overseas Students: Fees and Charges...... 418W Homes and Communities Agency: Internet ...... 368W Press: Competition...... 418W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 369W Regulation: Public Consultation ...... 419W Infrastructure Planning Commission: Offices ...... 369W Supermarkets ...... 419W Local Government Finance ...... 369W Trading Schemes ...... 419W London Development Agency: Consultants ...... 370W Unemployment ...... 420W London Development Agency: Pay...... 370W Yes Loans...... 422W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 370W Parks: Greater Manchester ...... 371W Planning Permission ...... 371W CABINET OFFICE...... 310W Planning Permission: Nature Conservation...... 372W Departmental Press...... 310W Regional Resilience Forums ...... 372W Departmental Travel ...... 310W Sheltered Housing...... 372W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— continued continued Social Rented Housing: Standards...... 373W Nigeria: Armed Forces...... 303W Supporting People Scheme...... 373W Serbia: EU Enlargement ...... 303W Waste Management: Advisory Bodies...... 373W Serbia: War Crimes ...... 304W Sri Lanka: International Monetary Fund ...... 304W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 344W Arts: Apprentices ...... 344W HEALTH...... 376W Gambling: Internet ...... 344W Blood: Safety ...... 376W Leisure Facilities: Finance...... 344W Children: Health ...... 377W Local Broadcasting: Radio...... 344W Climate Change ...... 377W Olympic Games 2012: Football...... 345W Diabetes: Orthopaedics...... 379W Sports: Greater Manchester ...... 345W Epilepsy ...... 379W Sports: Milton Keynes ...... 346W Epilepsy: Health Services ...... 380W Fluoride: Drinking Water ...... 380W DEFENCE...... 333W Health Services: Voluntary Organisations ...... 380W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 333W Healthy Start Scheme...... 381W Air Force: Manpower...... 333W Hospitals: Infections ...... 381W Air Force: Military Aircraft ...... 334W Incontinence: Medical Equipment ...... 382W Armed Forces: Foreigners ...... 334W Mental Health Services: Financial Services...... 382W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 334W Mentally Ill: Prisoners...... 382W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 335W Midwives...... 382W Army: Defence Equipment ...... 336W MRSA: East of England...... 383W Ex-servicemen: Suicide...... 336W National Institute for Health and Clinical Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft...... 336W Excellence ...... 383W Military Aircraft ...... 337W NHS: ICT ...... 383W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 337W Osteoporosis: Health Education ...... 384W Military Bases...... 338W Osteoporosis: Males...... 384W Nigeria: Military Aid ...... 339W Strokes ...... 384W Nimrod Aircraft...... 340W Swine Flu: Health Education ...... 387W Radioactive Waste: Waste Management...... 341W Tranquillisers ...... 388W RAF St. Athan ...... 343W Weapons: Lost Property...... 343W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 311W Antisocial Behaviour...... 311W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 346W Antisocial Behaviour: East of England ...... 311W Carbon Emissions...... 346W Antisocial Behaviour: Greater Manchester ...... 312W Climate Change ...... 347W Closed Circuit Television: Greater Manchester ...... 313W Departmental Data Protection...... 347W Departmental Data Protection...... 313W Departmental Manpower...... 347W Departmental Written Questions ...... 313W Fuel Poverty...... 348W DNA: Databases...... 314W Fuel Poverty: North West...... 348W Driving Offences: Insurance...... 314W Lighting: East of England...... 349W Entry Clearances: Families...... 315W Members: Correspondence ...... 349W Human Trafficking ...... 317W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 349W Illegal Immigrants...... 318W Renewable Energy: Housing...... 350W Immigration...... 318W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 319W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Members: Correspondence ...... 319W AFFAIRS...... 304W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 320W Animal Experiments ...... 304W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 320W Central Science Laboratory: Manpower...... 305W Personal Records: Data Protection ...... 321W Dairy Farmers of Britain ...... 305W Police: Greater Manchester...... 321W Dairy Farming ...... 306W Travel Restrictions...... 321W Departmental Furniture...... 306W Departmental Procurement...... 306W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 311W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 307W Members Staff: Contracts ...... 311W Flood Control...... 307W Plants...... 308W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 351W Rural Areas: Broadband ...... 308W Balkans: Poverty ...... 351W School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme ...... 309W Demos...... 351W Total Horsemanship...... 309W Departmental Press...... 352W Waste Management...... 309W Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 352W Water Companies: Renewable Energy...... 309W Kosovo: HIV Infection...... 353W Whales: Conservation ...... 310W Kosovo: Infant Mortality...... 353W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 310W Kosovo: National Income ...... 353W Kosovo: Unemployment ...... 354W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 301W South Ossetia: Overseas aid ...... 354W Bosnia and Herzegovina: Politics and Sri Lanka: Overseas Aid ...... 354W Government...... 301W Departmental Recruitment ...... 302W JUSTICE...... 398W Devolution...... 302W Civil Service Bill: Draft ...... 398W Members: Correspondence ...... 302W Coroners: Operating Costs...... 398W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TRANSPORT—continued Coroners: South West ...... 399W Shipping: Pollution ...... 298W Crime Prevention: Finance...... 399W Southern: Standards ...... 298W Environmental Protection Act 1990 ...... 399W Southern: Tickets ...... 299W HM Courts Service: Consultants ...... 400W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 300W Parole Board ...... 401W Prisoners Release ...... 401W TREASURY ...... 322W Restorative Justice...... 402W Banks: Finance ...... 322W Young Offenders: Crimes of Violence ...... 402W Barnett Formula ...... 323W Bradford and Bingley...... 323W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 322W Council Tax: Costs...... 324W Demos...... 322W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 324W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 322W Departmental Billing ...... 324W Employment Tribunals Service...... 325W OLYMPICS ...... 311W EU Grants and Loans: Wales...... 325W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 311W Geographical Information Systems: Procurement.. 326W Government Departments: Capital Investment...... 327W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 327W SCOTLAND...... 280W Housing: Finance...... 328W Departmental Billing ...... 282W Housing: Valuation ...... 328W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 282W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 329W Devolution...... 280W Local Government: Pensions ...... 329W Economy: Argyll and Bute...... 281W Northern Rock...... 329W Fuel Duty ...... 282W Personal Income ...... 329W Future Jobs Fund...... 281W Pregnant Women: Grants...... 330W House Repossessions ...... 280W Public Expenditure...... 330W North Sea Oil and Gas...... 280W Public Expenditure: Wales ...... 331W Postal Services...... 280W Public Finance ...... 331W Scottish Economy ...... 281W Public Sector: Pensions ...... 331W Regional Economic Council...... 331W TRANSPORT ...... 283W Revenue and Customs: Standards ...... 331W A13 ...... 283W Valuation Office: Northern Ireland Land and Airports: East of England...... 283W Property Services ...... 332W Aviation ...... 283W Valuation Office: Video Recordings ...... 332W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 284W Welfare Tax Credits...... 332W Bus Services: Standards ...... 285W Crossrail Line: Finance ...... 285W WALES...... 279W Departmental Conditions of Employment...... 286W EU Grants and Loans...... 279W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 286W Departmental Press...... 287W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 322W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 287W Females: Protection...... 322W Departmental Training ...... 289W Driving Standards Agency: Consultants ...... 289W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 355W Driving Tests: Motorcycles ...... 289W Connexions ...... 355W Driving: Working Hours ...... 290W Departmental Pay ...... 355W Electric Vehicles ...... 290W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 355W Heathrow Airport ...... 291W Disability Living Allowance...... 356W London and Continental Railways...... 291W Employment Schemes ...... 357W M25 ...... 292W Employment Services...... 357W Motor Vehicles: Foreigners ...... 292W Employment Services: Finance ...... 358W Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 292W Employment Tribunals Service...... 358W Railways...... 293W Jobcentre Plus ...... 361W Railways: Fares ...... 293W Jobcentre Plus: Plymouth...... 361W Railways: Finance ...... 293W Jobcentre Plus: Standards ...... 362W Railways: Franchises ...... 294W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Lincolnshire ...... 363W Railways: South East ...... 295W National Insurance: Greater London...... 364W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 295W New Deal Schemes...... 364W Roads: Accidents ...... 295W Social Security Benefits: EU Nationals ...... 366W Shipping...... 296W Social Security Benefits: Payments...... 366W Shipping: Accidents ...... 297W Train to Gain Programme: North East ...... 366W Shipping: Carbon Emissions...... 297W Work Trials ...... 367W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 17 June 2009

Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1MC Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 24 June 2009

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 494 Wednesday No. 93 17 June 2009

CONTENTS

Wednesday 17 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 285] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Hebrides Missile Range [Col. 305] Application for emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24

Programming of Bills (Suspension) [Col. 306] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr. Lilley)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 310]

Tribute to Mr. Speaker [Col. 315] Motion—(Prime Minister)—agreed to

Business Rate Supplements Bill [Col. 340] Lords amendments considered

Green Energy (Definition and Promotion Bill) (Money) [Col. 382] Money resolution—(Mr. Kidney)—agreed to

NHS (Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly) [Col. 385] Debate on motion for Adjournment

External Service [Col. 405] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Regional Aviation Policy [Col. 69WH] Pemberton Homicide Review [Col. 95WH] St. Helena [Col. 102WH] Ambulance Services (Crewe and Nantwich) [Col. 125WH] Grimsby and Cleethorpes Rail Services [Col. 133WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 279W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]