Fahamu Pecou Regina Bradley
OutKasted Conversations – Episode 10 – Fahamu Pecou
Regina Bradley: Hey, what’s up, everybody! I'm Dr Regina Bradley, and this is OutKasted Conversations. Count ‘em. Ten, ten down. Episode ten. And we gon’ end this special run with the one, the only… fugitive Mister-Professor-Doctor-
Fahamu Pecou: Hey!
Regina: -the shit! Fahamu Pecou.
Fahamu: Hootie hoo!
Regina: What’s going on, good sir?
Fahamu: Hootie hoo.
Regina: How you? *laughs*
Fahamu: I’m good. *both laugh*
Regina: Well, thank you, thank you. ‘Cause, you know, you a busy, busy, busy man being the shit.
Fahamu: Aye, man. But, you know.
Regina: So, um…
Fahamu: We- we here with you, so…
Regina: But, you know, You gotta answer the question to get into the club. How did you become OutKasted?
Fahamu: Aye, you know… I'm a tell you the truth. I’m a tell you a true story, right?
Regina: That's all we do here. We want the facks (facts)!
Fahamu: Yeah, yeah, it’s a true story. True story.
Regina: C-K-S, not -T.
Fahamu: So, I wasn't always OutKasted.
Regina: *gasps* Get off my set. … *both laugh*
Fahamu: Yeah, like, when I first, uh, moved to Atlanta in ’93,
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: OutKast, you know, was starting to get a little bit of a buzz, but so was the Wu-Tang Clan.
Regina: You was Wu all day.
Fahamu: I was Wu all day-
Regina: Who’s your favorite?
Fahamu: -I had my Timbs- Ghostface, of course. Yeah.
Regina: Respect.
Fahamu: Yeah, so I-
Regina: Sometimes, you gotta ask questions. You know.
Fahamu: I was- I was real New York with my hip hop, and people kept trying to put me on to OutKast. but, you know, again, I had just moved here. Atlanta was a culture shock.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: I couldn't understand what people were saying.
Regina: *laughs*
Fahamu: Like, I didn't- I couldn't understand the accent. Um, and-
Regina: You tried to stomp ‘em out with the Timbs-
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: You, right, brought the Timbs out here like, “I can’t understand what you saying!”
Fahamu: “You know, what are y’all talking about?!”
Regina: *laughs*
Fahamu: But, uhh, a friend of mine, uh, who lived off campus used to kind of, like, use my dorm room between classes.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: And he was really, like, trying to beat this OutKast thing, you know, um, into my head. And I was like, “Nah, man, I’m cool off of that.” Anyway, he knew that whenever I would come in my room, I would just hit my stereo and, like, start drawing, you know?
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: So he queued up a OutKast tape to “Crumblin’ Erb.” And I came in the room, I hit the thing. Those drums came in, I'm drawing, and I was like, “What is this?” You know? And then I looked, and he was, like, “Got you.” *both laugh*
Fahamu: And I was like, Oh, snap. Okay. So, after that, I really started, like, listening to- to OutKast and, you know, became a fan. But it really wasn't until Soul Food where I was like, Oh, this is the stuff.
Regina: Okay, yeah. So, I mean, so you're a visual artist. You're a visual theorist, a thinker, all of the scholarly shit that they want us to say. You know, you do that-
Fahamu: I try.
Regina: *laughs*. You do a great job of it. So, one of things that I find most fascinating about your work is your ability to visualize connections between hip hop and ideas of gender, particularly masculinity.
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: So, you know, I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts about what that evolution was. I mean, like, were you specifically going out to be like, I’ma talk about Black men doing hip hop shit, or was it like a- like a organic thing, like somebody just kind of hit play, you were like, “Oh, maybe I should go from here.”
Fahamu: Yeah, it was really organic. In fact, um, you know, I was still trying to discover my voice as an artist when I landed a job – or let me let me rephrase that – when I lied to get a job as a graphic designer.
Regina: Okay.
Fahamu: Um, I’d never taken a graphic design class in my life, but, you know, I needed a job.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: Anyway, um, uh, I ended up, uh, getting a job in New York, uh, working at this, like, boutique agency that did a lot of, like, promotions for hip hop groups, and this is the late ‘90s in New York, like, everybody's getting this stuff done in this spot. And so, I got to, like, sit like this with, like, you know, a number of hip hop artists and I got a different side of the game. I got to meet the person instead of the person they played on TV.
Regina: Person instead of the product.
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: And, uh it- it put this question in the back of my head, like, what would happen if somebody marketed a visual artist the same way we do a hip hop artist?
Regina: Mm.
Fahamu: Would people, you know, respond the same way. Fast forward a couple years later, I'm back in Atlanta and I'm trying to, you know, get my work into galleries and, you know, get put on. Uh, and I got frustrated, you know, like, I wasn't getting the kind of response that I, you know, thought I would get. And I decided to create, uh, a marketing campaign based on that idea that I had. Like, I'm a market myself like a hip hop artist. I just want to see what would happen. And I came up with the whole Fahamu Pecou is The Shit! thing, you know? Uh, and it was, like, patterned after, like, the 50 Cent, you know, marketing campaign. And I just wanted to, like, see if people would respond.
Regina: I remember when people had, like, the li’l- the little stickers you put on your- your computer, like Fahamu Pecou is The Shit! And I’m like, “Who da hell- “ *both laugh*
Regina: Na mean? “Let me figure out who this is.” Okay, so you- so you decided to market yourself like a hip hop artist, in a way.
Fahamu: Yeah. And I mean, but ultimately that led me to these questions about, uh, black masculinity and representation and marketing and media and visual culture and, you know, how all of these things impact not only, uh, how black men are perceived or read in society, but how ultimately black men shape their performance in the world, you know, based on these images. Um, and that's ultimately how it all kind of landed for me.
Regina: So, I mean, it’s- it’s dope, I mean, I feel like I have to say this repeatedly, like, your artwork is just mind-blowing, especially the Do or Die exhibit that you have up at Emory right now.
Fahamu: I thank you.
Regina: The big ass one in the back.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: The one that has, like, just all the different color blues in it and-
Fahamu: And indigo.
Regina: -and I’m just like, ahhh-
Fahamu: Yeah.
Regina: -it took me out. It’s gon be in somebody’s house on Cribs.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: I’m like *laughs* If I could put- if I could put something on it, I’d be like, you know, we could set up, like, a art- a art share type thing.
Fahamu: Yeah. Yeah, we got layaway plans.
Regina: You know what I’m saying? I'm trying to make it work. You know.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: Um, but, yeah, so, I mean, let's dig a little bit deeper in terms of, you know, your effect on Southern hip hop-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -particularly Atlanta artists.
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: So, um, we think about somebody like a OutKast, you know what I mean? Like, you can't separate the lyricism-
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: -from the- from the visuality-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -of what they do. Like, you have to be able to literally visualize-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -you know, what- what that means. I'm kind of curious to hear your thoughts about, you know, what is it about OutKast’s literal imagination that you think is so important to how we think about not only them but, like, this contemporary Southern black masculinity that they present time and time again?
Fahamu: Well, yeah, I mean, I think one of the reasons that I- I really became attracted to, um, OutKast and the Dungeon Family more broadly was-
Regina: Mhm?
Fahamu: -they really did paint pictures with their words, you know, like, I wasn't from Atlanta, I didn't grow up in the woods, playing in the woods and doing all that kind of stuff like, you know, get- be talking about, but I could see it. You know, I could feel it was- it was visceral, you know, the way they described, uh, their world and the way they articulated their experience. And it was just- it was really beautiful and poetic, um, you know, wh- wh- in fact, there was an interview with- with Andre. I can't remember what magazine it was in, but he talked about how he kept this journal.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: You know, where, uh, if he heard a clever saying or turn of a phrase, he would write it down and then when they're in a studio, like, working on verses and he needed some inspiration, he would just thumb through this book and find one of these lines and, like, work it into a verse.
Regina: Mhm, mhm.
Fahamu: And I was like, oh, man, that's pretty fly, you know? And so, I started doing the same thing, you know what I mean, like, you know, keeping the little journal. It -it’s actually in my phone, you know-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -and I'm, like-
Regina: Me too! *laughs*
Fahamu: -driving with my knee like, ah yeah!
Regina: Skills!
Fahamu: You know? But- *both laugh* but it's that- that- that the way that they capture, um, so the- the way they capture the southern aesthetic, uh, and vocalize it and even express it, you know, physically, you know, like their- their costumes, their, uh, performances, their stage shows, everything really spoke to this culture of Atlanta that for me became, ah, um, very, um, intimate and, um, nurturing kind of space, you know, like, Atlanta raised me. You know, I didn't grow up here, but I grew up here.
Regina: Got it.
Regina: You know? And, uh, you know, discovering OutKast, discovering the Dungeon Family and Goodie Mob, and, you know, ah, having their music become sort of a soundtrack to my own development, you know, like, really, you know, again, kind of helped shape the way that I see the world.
Regina: Yeah, ‘cause I mean, like, in- in my own work, I kind of talk about, visually how you can't separate the two. You have to have one without the other.
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: And I think I think you put it much more eloquently than what I'm throwing across the room at the moment. Um, but, you know, I think about something, like, that really stands out, something like an “Elevators” video, for example-
Fahamu: Mhm, mhm.
Regina: -that blends multiple visual medium.
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: So, you have, like, the comic book aesthetic-
Fahamu: Right, right.
Regina: You have, you know, the monster Predator, and-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -um, this idea of invisibility, invisibility, particularly, uh, as it relates to, um, them as young, black men.
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: Um, and, you know, I was one if you could kind- kind of give a little bit more discussion about the Southerner aesthetic. Like, what type of, you know, what kind of aesthetic did OutKast present visually that folks have kind of taken and ran with and we can kind of connect it to today?
Fahamu: You know, it’s- it’s a- it’s a really, really difficult thing to describe the aesthetic. Um, but I think one of the things that makes that aesthetic much more accessible or legible even is the una- unabashed courage-
Regina: Mm.
Fahamu: -you know, that they show with it. You know what I mean?
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: Like, again, you know, I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York, but I grew up mostly in South Carolina. Um, but I always tried to be New York, you know, in the way that I moved and the way that I thought. You know what I mean? It’s like trying to be somebody else. You know? Uh, and one of the things that I really appreciated about their aesthetic is that they weren't trying to be like anybody else, you know, like, OutKast was very much “This is who we are. This is what we represent. This is how…” You know what I mean? Like, we're proud of this, you know? And that kind of pride, like, you- it's- it’s hard to put into words. You know, it's- it's hard to say they did X, Y, and Z.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: You just, I mean, like, just seeing them move. You just had to get on with it because it was like, yeah, that's dope. I- I mean, I don't- It's not who I am-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -but I get it and I'm with it. I’m- I’m- I’m-
Regina: Even if I don't get it, I want to try to get it.
Fahamu: I want to be with it, yeah, you know, like, uh, I- I- I’ll never forget. I can't remember what- what video it was, but I remember Andre was wearing, like, the Braves jacket and, like, the, I think it was, like, some kind of, like, hockey pads or, like, you know, something-
Regina: Oh, yeah.
Fahamu: -like, with- with no shirt on. But it was, like, it was so Atlanta. But it was, like, you know, I what mean, like, it wasn't like anything else.
Regina: Yes.
Fahamu: You know, like you didn't see that in any other hip hop aesthetic, you know? It was very, very deliberate, it was very intentional, um, and it was very courageous and, uh, you know, it goes back to, you know, again, Dre at the Source Awards, like, the South got something to say, you know?
Regina: Yeah, it does seem like the South got something say visually, culturally-
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: -sonically. I think- I just think it’s really dope that- that, you know, your- you- we have your body of work to really kind of connect the dots in terms of, um, thinking about, you know, articulations of highbrow art-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -lowbrow-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -you know, all of the- all of the “isms,” the elitism, the classism, and then to see you work kind of blend and totally destroy-
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: what we're expecting, you know, what fine art is supposed to do and for you to bring hip hop to the center-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -of what we think fine art is is extremely groundbreaking. So, I'm just really excited about everything that you-
Fahamu: I thought this was going to be an interview. I didn't know it was going to be like a praise session. I’m just unh.
Regina: You know, I can do both! I can do both!
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: You know what I'm saying? Um, but, you know, you were talking about the- the courage to be able to bring this particular experience and dynamic, visually, to the forefront. So, you did something extremely dope. It was hella dope. You recreated the stairs to The Dungeon in 1907 Lakewood Terrace. *both laugh* Um, can you tell us a little bit about, like, why and when and- and how that was received?
Fahamu: Yeah, for sure. That was really one of, ah, my- my most favorite projects that I worked on. Um, in 2015, I was commissioned to curate Elevate, which is a festival that the, um, Office of Cultural Affairs produces every year. And, uh, the thing that I selected was, ah, “F.I.L.A. (Forever I Love Atlanta),” and through that I wanted to, ah, use Elevate as an opportunity to celebrate everything that made Atlanta special and unique. You know what I mean? Like, there's so much of this, uh, at the time, uh, there was so much, like, comparison of Atlanta to other places. Oh, Atlanta is the New York of the South. Atlanta's of this, of that, you know, like Atlanta is Atlanta.
Regina: Right.
Fahamu: And if you grew up here, if you came up here, if you know anything about Atlanta, you know Atlanta is like no place else in the world.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: And, um, you know, for a part of that event, for a part of Elevate, I decided to curate an exhibition that celebrated the Dungeon Family-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -um, and it was, like, divided into two parts. One part was, like, the original, you know, origins of the Dungeon Family, and then the other part was, like, this is where they are today.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: And I had a few photos of the, um, the stairs of the original Dungeon, and, in fact, we actually considered, like, trying to go in and, like, take the stairs *both laugh* out of the house and, you know, and doing all that kind of stuff. But, you know, uh, we were able to use photos, and I worked with this artists and designer who sourced the wood that he used to create the stairs, ah, from old floorboards of Morehouse-
Regina: Wow.
Fahamu: -College.
Regina: So, it was already black-on-black-on-black.
Fahamu: Oh yeah, it was.
Regina: Oh okay, okay.
Fahamu: Oh man. And, uh, using the photos, I actually went in and hand-did- redid the graffiti that was on the original stairs-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -and it was really dope. In fact, several of the guys, uh, you know, who were a part of the original Dungeon Family, everybody was there for the opening. You know, they came in and they saw the stairs, and then they were like, “Oh, snap! How did you get the stairs out-? Look, I tagged it right here, this is my tag right there!”
Regina: Mhm, mhm.
Fahamu: I was kind of like, no that- I did that. You know? But they c- *laughs* they couldn't tell that, you know, it wasn't the actual stairs, which, for me was like, wow, this is- this really came off.
Regina: You did that!
Fahamu: You know? Yeah.
Regina: That means that you did that.
Fahamu: Yeah, this really came off. And, you know, but the exhibition was dope. We had a lot of great materials, in- in addition to the stairs we had, uh, Rico's original, um, uh, MPC –
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -drum machine, we had some of the speakers that they had in there, we had some of their old reel-to-reel’s, we had, like, you know, real, actual, like, artifacts, like, archival artifacts from the Dungeon.
Regina: Wow.
Fahamu: Uh, costumes that they wore in different performances and in videos and shows and stuff. It was- it was a really great, uh, uh, time. But, you know, for me, it was, again, about paying homage to, um, a group and to artists who were really big inspirations for me as an artist and helped me to discover my own voice as an artist.
Regina: So as a visionary remembering other visionaries that came before you.
Fahamu: Indeed.
Regina: No, I can get with that. So, I mean, like, ultimately, you know, as a visual artist, where do you think the South fits into these conversations about, you know, hip hop and visual culture now, because we’re moving away from, like, that really staple, like, 106 & Park era, where it was like music videos-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -where your beginning of your day, the end of your day, like, I was unavailable when 106 & Park came on.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: Um, but we don't necessarily invest in, like, music video culture in the same way. So, you know, what are- what are your thoughts about how art is in conversation with hip hop that we know today.
Fahamu: I think that's really interesting question and it’s one that I hadn't really considered before. But as, uh, as there is a- a- a shift away from the visual culture of hip hop centering on music videos-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -it's moving more into other, more plastic, uh, forms of art. So, you're seeing more hip hop represented in galleries and museums.
Regina: Mmm.
Fahamu: You're seeing more hip hop represented in, like, fashion and, you know, fashion shows and actually in the stores. You know what I mean? It's so, like, the idea of hip hop as being this sort of, like, island is- is shifting. Like, the- the- the continents have kind of merged together where hip hop is really more, um, and especially Southern hip hop, because it drives so much of the conversation around contemporary hip hop generally.
Regina: Mhm. Mhm.
Fahamu: I think it's really become more of a centralized aspect of just popular culture, period. Like, it's in everything, it’s on everything, it’s everywhere. You know? So, we don't have to go to 106 & Park to find it anymore.
Regina: I mean, it's also too, like, you have a lot of your artists who are blurring what high art is.
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: And I don't- and I don’t- so, you know, when you think about somebody like a Beyoncé and a Jay Z-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -like, they rented out the Louvre, right?
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: *laughs* What kind of money shit is that? *both laugh* I mean, like, how long would you have to do that, like, you were, like, years in advance.
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: Okay, this what we gon’ do-
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: -in like 2018. We're gon rent out the Louvre. It’s gonna go down. Um, I mean, like, it- it- it’s a- it blurs ideas of high art and, like, black folks’ position in that-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -and how to access it. And I’m also thinking about the Cardi B “Money” video and, you know, just Cardi B in general, it’s like, I'ma take fine art and flip it on its ass, right?
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: Um, but, I mean, yeah, I think that's a really good point, is that when we think about regionalism, it was such a prominent staple in how we- how we thought hip pop moved in the 90’s and 2000’s. And now we have- no we’re in the era of the internet and social media-
Fahamu: Right.
Regina: -where it's like-
Fahamu: It's global.
Regina: It’s global! Yes. So, I just, you know, in- in terms of- of visualization, I think about art, especially art like yours or John Jennings or, you know, Stacey Robinson. And they take- they take the canvas, so to speak, and make it like a bridgeway. It's going to be like, No, you could think about like this, but also, I'm not going to let you just-
Fahamu: Mhm.
Regina: -tell me what I'm gonna do. This is me articulating and basically breaking the structure.
Fahamu: Well, one of the things, like- I- I- from the very beginning, uh, with my magazine paintings, I- I’ve always referenced, ah, my visual aesthetic as sampling.
Regina: Mm.
Fahamu: Um, you know, that I was borrowing, you know, concepts and ideas from a variety of places, to, you know, create these compositions, ah, um, similar to the way a producer would, you know, produce a track in hip hop. And I think that we're seeing, again, we're seeing more of that now as, institutionally, there is a hunger for that aesthetic. Um, in 2014, um, I had an opportunity to guest edit ART PAPERS magazine.
Regina: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Fahamu: And the, uh, the theme of that was the intersection of art- fine art-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -and hip hop culture-
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: -and the entire issue was dedicated to those intersections. And- and, ah, two questions around those intersections, in fact, one of the largest questions with why has it taken so long to have this conversation? And I think that, you know, as we- as- as hip hop continues to evolve, it naturally, uh, expands its voice and its reach and its capacity to engage. Ah, you know, and I just think that's really a testament to the fact that- uh, that the- that the art form, that the culture itself is, ah, maturing, You know, you have people who can rent out the Louvre.
Regina: Mhm.
Fahamu: You know, you have to respect that amount of cultural, if not economic, capital.
Regina: Mhm, mhm.
Fahamu: Yeah.
Regina: I mean, I feel like that's a good place to end it.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: Pecou, Dr. Pecou-is-the-shit-
Fahamu: Hey, hey.
Regina: Thank you so much for coming to come kick it with us and talk highbrow art and The Dungeon and all that other good stuff.
Fahamu: Yeah, man. Thank you for having me.
Regina: You know, and if you haven’t, go see Do or Die at the Michael C. Carlos Museum, Emory University. It’s fire.
Fahamu: *laughs*
Regina: It’s worth your little eight dollars, I’m telling you. *both laugh* Go up in there. I'm Dr. Regina Bradley. This is OutKased Conversations. Y’all be easy.