TEULU ASAPH Diocese of St Asaph August/September 2013 How would God vote? Why God would vote Yes Venerable John Thelwell I would like to think He would vote “yes” the council of Jewish synagogues. Jewish from a scriptural perspective. So we need women sitting alongside Jewish men as to ask: how does scripture, especially the Elders.” In the epistles of Paul and in Acts New Testament, inform us on the subject? several women are mentioned in the same The Jesus of Luke’s Gospel is portrayed breath as the apostles, as fellow workers as one who values the role of women in in the service of Christ such as Phoebe, the faith community. In the resurrection Priscilla and Junia. narrative the news that Jesus has been Most of Church history before the 20th raised is first conveyed to women – who century was written by men and this were not believed by the men. In John’s may account for the restrictions placed Gospel the risen Christ on women in the ordained appears first to Mary ministry. Thankfully we Magdalene. I may be naive now have women priests, but why is the greatest many hold high office and moment in Christian history women bishops should be a witnessed by a woman if natural progression. the role of women is to be a I believe that the New subservient one in the life of Testament recognised the Church? women in leadership roles. In his letter to the Galatians They had the authority of the in chapter 1 v 12 Paul states Holy Spirit to exercise those that what he preaches roles in many capacities. was revealed to him by Surely that is still true today? Jesus Christ. In the same God would vote for women epistle Paul teaches that bishops because He still through baptism we are all, sees no distinction between regardless of gender, united with Christ. male and female at any level of ministry. What that means for Paul comes out clearly in Galatians 3 v 27 – 28. For Paul being baptised into union with Christ means there is no difference between the sexes in His Church and kingdom. Finally, contrary to what we have been led The Governing Body of the Church in Wales to believe, women were not excluded from is the group that governs the Faith, Order and ministry in the early Church. I don’t believe Worship of the Church here. The decision of either that women were excluded from whether or not to ordain women as Bishops leadership roles in the Jewish tradition. in Wales is up to them. At their meeting in Diarmaid MacCulloch (professor of September they will vote on it. However, it’s Church History at Oxford) says : “In Paul’s not as straightforward as it sounds because time there was active female leadership in this vote will be in two parts. To begin with 2 Why God would vote No Norah Roberts I write this as a faithful, lifelong Anglican and whole still doesn’t ordain women to the feel strongly that God would vote ‘no’.This is priesthood or episcopate. In fact within because God himself is unchanging. He has the Anglican Communion, there are still revealed himself most fully in the life and five Provinces which do not ordain women teaching of his Son, Jesus, who chose as his to any order, four which ordain only to the Apostles only men, in spite of the fact that diaconate, and eleven which ordain only his attitude towards women was radically women deacons and priests. This is in no different to the practice and teaching of the way a question of justice – the Church does time. Probably the most important person not exist to please secular society. Indeed in his life was his mother Mary, who was not there are many matters where the teaching chosen as an apostle. Mary of the Bible and the Church Magdalene was the first is at odds with that of the witness to the resurrection world. but was not chosen as an Ordination of women as apostle. Women present in bishops has jeopardised the the upper room on the day of unity of the Church. Relations Pentecost were not given the are now strained with those gift of becoming an apostle, who maintain the traditional although no doubt they were faith – Roman Catholics, given other gifts of the Spirit. Orthodox and others, and I am certainly not against within the Anglican Church, the ministry of women as where women Bishops have such, but holy orders were been ordained. The Bishop is bestowed from the beginning to be a focus of unity within on men and this tradition is the Church, impossible if maintained by the majority of their orders are not accepted Christians. as valid by all. By ordaining women to the It saddens me that the Anglican Church episcopate the Church is going against our is tearing itself apart over this. We should Lord’s express wish that ‘all may be one.’ remember that the Christian church as a It’s also sad that those who are in favour of the ordination of women seem determined to get their way at any cost and are not the Governing Body will vote on the principle prepared to wait on the Lord or properly of women being ordained as Bishops. If that respect those of us who do not agree. It is passed it will only come into force when seems to me that those who claim to be provision has been made within the Church liberals are often the most illiberal, as they in Wales for those who cannot accept women fail to recognise or respect any view but their as Bishops. This is part two. own. The Anglican Church must be seen as Governing Body will meet in Lampeter on a tolerant Church holding together people September 11 and 12. of varying views. 3 Rwy’n ymroddedig i annog yr Eglwys i agor pob gweinidogaeth ordeiniedig i’r ddau ryw, ond ar yr un pryd, yn ymroddedig i ganfod digon o le i ni fyw gyda’n gilydd er gwaethaf ein gwahaniaethau ar y mater hwn. Bishop Gregory Mae gan yr Eglwys Efengyl i’w chyhoeddi: Mae Duw unrhyw un sy’n anghytuno adael. Ffordd arall ymlaen yw wedi datgelu yn Iesu beth yw ystyr bod yn gwbl ddynol, dweud: “Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r ddwy ochr yn parhau patrwm y gellir ei briodoli i fywyd yn ei gyfanrwydd. i geisio bod yn ddisgyblion ffyddlon, ac oherwydd hynny, Serch hynny, mae bywyd bob amser mae gan yr Eglwys ddyletswydd yn dod â chwestiynau newydd i greu digon o le i’r ddwy ochr i’n sylw, ac mae Cristnogion yn fyw mewn un frawdoliaeth.” Yn aml yn ymateb yn wahanol yn eu fy marn i, mae’n ymddangos hatebion i’r cwestiynau hynny. Yn yn amlwg mai’r ail ffordd yw’r aml, mae atebion gwahanol wedi ffordd Gristnogol, ond yn awr, gwahanu’r Eglwys, a chanlyniad mae gennym gwestion anoddach y gwahaniaethau hynny drwy’r na’r cyntaf. Os cawn ni esgobion canrifoedd yw Cristnogaeth benyw, sut gwnawn ni ddarparu ar heddiw. Unwaith y ceir rhwyg, gyfer y rhai sy’n anghytuno? Os mae’n anodd ei atgyweirio. na rown ddigon o le, nid ydym yn cynnig goddefgarwch o gwbl, Felly, gydag unrhyw gwestiwn mewn gwirionedd; os darparwn newydd, daw ail gwestiwn: sut dylai yn ormodol, rydym mewn perygl Cristnogion ymwneud â’i gilydd o droi ein hesgobion benyw yn pan fyddan nhw’n anghytuno ar sut esgobion eilradd, yn gyfyngedig yn i ddilyn Iesu? Mae’r traddodiad Anglicanaidd bob amser yr hyn y gallan nhw ei wneud. wedi ceisio bod yn “Eglwys eang”, yn cynnal atebion gwahanol iawn o fewn un frawdoliaeth. Gall hyn arwain Felly, pan fydd y Corff Llywodraethol yn cyfarfod ym at gywelyaid digon rhyfedd: Offeren uchel-eglwysig mis Medi, bydd yn cael cyfle i wahanu’r ddau fater: mewn un Eglwys, a Chymun syml mewn un arall. Serch gwneud penderfyniad ar yr egwyddor yn awr, a pheidio hynny, hoffwn ddweud bod mater o’r fath yn dystiolaeth â gweithredu nes ein bod wedi meddwl mwy am yr ail o wirionedd mwy sylfaenol: bod Crist, a disgyblaeth fater, er mwyn ceisio canfod ateb sy’n rhoi lle a man Gristnogol, yn fwy nag unrhyw draddodiad, a bod pawb diogel i’r rhai sy’n gwrthwynebu ar sail cydwybod, ond sy’n dilyn Iesu hefyd yn cael eu galw i arddangos y cariad nad yw’n gwthio unrhyw esgobion benyw yn y dyfodol a’r goddefgarwch y mae Iesu wedi galw ei ddisgyblion ar rôl fwy cyfyngedig na’u cymheiriaid gwryw. Ni allwn i’w gael. brysuro’r Eglwys yn ei blaen, er cymaint y byddai rhai yn hoffi gwneud hynny, nes ein bod ni wedi treulio amser ac Un cwestiwn cymharol newydd yw’r cwestiwn ynghylch ymdrechu i wrando ar ein gilydd, a gwneud ein gorau i “esgobion benyw”. Nid oes gennym hanes o alw ganfod ateb lle gall pob Anglican ganfod ei gartref, beth merched i fod yn esgobion – ac i rai, yr unig reswm dros bynnag yw ei argyhoeddiadau ar y mater hwn. hyn yw rhagfarn hanesyddol; ym marn pobl eraill, mae’n ymwneud â’r modd y mae Duw wedi gosod y patrwm i’r Beth am fy safbwyntiau i? Rwy’n ymroddedig i annog ddynoliaeth a’r Eglwys. Felly, rydym yn anghytuno. Un yr Eglwys i agor pob gweinidogaeth ordeiniedig i’r ddau ffordd ymlaen fyddai i’n Heglwys ddefnyddio ei phrosesau ryw, ond ar yr un pryd, yn ymroddedig i ganfod digon o i wneud penderfyniad - yng Nghymru, mae gennym Gorff le i ni fyw gyda’n gilydd er gwaethaf ein gwahaniaethau Llywodraethol i wneud hynny - ac yna dweud y caiff ar y mater hwn.