Interview with Edmund Schlummer, President of the Locomotives Division at Bombardier Transportation Online Publication Authorized by Minirex AG Publishing House

126 Railway Update 3/2007

Interview with Edmund Schlummer, President of the Locomotives division at Bombardier Transportation Online Publication authorized by Minirex AG publishing house

RAILWAY UPDATE: Mr. Schlummer, since RWU: There might be potential for mainline AEG and ABB merged to form Adtranz, you trains somewhere between high speed mul- have been developing your Traxx product tiple units and commuter trains. platform for Deutsche Bahn based on the Schlummer: We respond to customer de- 145 locomotive series. How many Traxx mand. If a customer wants a locomotive for locomotives have you sold to date, and how 330 km/h or 250 km/h – after all, the Spanish many have been delivered? power cars are also locomotives – then we’ll Schlummer: So far we have sold 1048 Traxx supply one. For example, we offered to sup- locomotives. As you correctly point out, we ply 200 km/h locomotives in Belgium. But start counting with the 145 series, of which there is currently very little demand for them. 730 vehicles are currently being operated. RWU: But are you prepared for a change in RWU: That gives us an idea of your backlog: customer taste? 318 vehicles is quite a figure. Schlummer: We have an innovative product Schlummer: It doesn’t only consist of concept. But a new product is only an inno- Traxx locomotives, however. Our backlog is vation if such a product can also break into currently bigger outside than within the the market and be profitable. We need to Traxx platform. The figure I quoted does not develop and produce products which will be include the E 464 locomotives for regional well received on the market. It may be that services in Italy and the high speed power we cannot crack every niche sector. cars for Spain. Of the 182 high speed power Edmund Schlummer, was appointed President, Our customers are more concerned with cars we are building with Talgo, our partner Locomotives, Bombardier Transportation on Au- competitiveness and cost reduction. There in the consortium, about forty have already gust 1, 2004. He has served as a Member of the is less and less scope for producing feats of been delivered. Around 180 of the 538 Board of Bombardier Transportation Italy S.p.A. in technical brilliance which no one has any Italian E 464 locos remain to be delivered. Savona (Italy) since September 2004. Edmund use for. And we recently signed an order for another Schlummer started his career with vocational training in Power Electronics at Du Pont de RWU: What is the situation in other markets, 150 vehicles. But that figure does not include such as China? orders for other markets, such as China. Nemours (Deutschland) GmbH, Hamm in 1976. In 1991, Mr. Schlummer came to the railway industry Schlummer: China is a booming market RWU: What trends can be discerned in the when he joined ABB Henschel in Mannheim, Ger- with a potential of 5000 to 6000 new market for standard locomotives? many, as Project and Group Manager for develop- locomotives within the next few years. The ment of traction converter systems in locomo- Schlummer: The market is characterised tives, metros and light rail vehicles. From 1996 to vehicles will be produced in China, but by a strong upswing in Europe, though 1998, he served as Principal Project Manager of with the help of western partners such as countries further east such as China, Russia ABB Daimler Benz Transportation (Adtranz) for Bombardier. In early 2007 we and our partner and increasingly, India, are also becoming diesel locomotives at site Kassel, Germany. He Dalian Locomotives and Rolling Stock Works key markets for Bombardier. later became Director of Sales for Asia, Africa and signed a contract for 500 locomotives. These NAFTA. In 1999, Edmund Schlummer joined ABB are six-axled freight locomotives based on In Europe, Bombardier and our predecessor Management Consulting GmbH in Heidelberg, companies have had around a fifty per cent the Kiruna locomotives, though adapted Germany, as Senior Consultant. He was appointed slightly to Chinese needs. For example, the market share in the locomotive market for Site General Manager of ABB Automation Pro- around eight years now. This market share is ducts in Göttingen, Germany. In July 2002, he performance is significantly increased, from set to grow further, since our Traxx platform returned to the railway industry as Vice President 0.9 to 1.6 MW per axle, resulting in a total is currently the premium product on the mar- Project, Management for Bombardier Transpor- traction power of 9.6 MW for a six-axled tation’s Locomotives & Freight division. Edmund locomotive. Other modifications include two ket: maximum reliability and availability, the Schlummer holds a degree in electrical engineer- most cost-efficient sale price for our cus- driver cabs instead of one, IGBT instead of ing from the Rheinisch-Westfälische Technical GTO technology and top speeds of 120 tomers, optimum life cycle costs, attractive University in Aachen (photo: mr). maintenance concepts, increasing inter- km/h instead of 80 km/h. The Chinese will operable services along European corridors, convert the vehicles themselves. Bombar- not just domestic traffic in individual coun- dier will provide technical support and drive tries but also in cross-border operations. I vehicle capacity is economically optimised. components such as propulsion converters, am expecting our market share in Europe to Current thinking is that an electric locomo- traction motors and auxiliary power conver- reach 60 per cent or even more. tive-hauled train is paying for 500 seats ters for the first 150 vehicles or so. The rest upwards. Three years ago, it was 330 seats of the components will be manufactured RWU: Do you mean just electric locomoti- and upwards. In the future it will be 600 to in China under our joint venture terms. ves, or all types of locomotives? 700 seats. This development demonstrates However, the “noble parts” will continue to Schlummer: The European market is heavily multiple units’ enormous competitive advan- be supplied from Europe for the other loco- geared towards electric locomotives. There tage compared to locomotive-hauled trains. motives as well. These will be the control- is hardly any difference between the electric There are huge numbers of old locomotives command components, the vehicle control locomotive market and the locomotive mar- which have not yet reached the end of their units, the drive control units and the phase ket as a whole. service life. The interface with clients oper- components. The component racks will be We need to take a more nuanced view of the ating passenger coach services therefore built by our joint venture in China, and are market and distinguish between freight and needs to be made more attractive. A 15- to also part of our business there. passenger traffic. In the future, European 20-year-old locomotive which still functions We are seeking to establish similar models in passenger traffic will be dominated by multi- well but has depreciated and represents no Russia, where some years ago we signed a ple units. The number of locomotive-hauled further capital costs can haul Bombardier’s contract for twelve EP 10 engines, which passenger trains will decrease, while that modern double-decker trains. The client were completely delivered. of – particularly electric – multiple units will therefore operates an attractive product, RWU: The first EP 10 was unveiled in 2000. increase. Diesel locomotive-hauled trains, even if it is hauled by an ageing locomotive. Since then there has beenlittle mention of on the other hand, will remain competitive, We are currently undergoing a renaissance this locomotive. since DMUs do not offer the same perfor- in freight traffic. Both public and private Schlummer: There were a few modifications mance as EMUs. freight operators are booming. The demand made during the project, but all the locomo- In a competitive market, the cost per seat of- for locomotives is on the increase, especially tives have since been built and are being fered by multiple units has made them more for the major European freight routes, and I operated. In Russia we are even considering attractive. Operators’ primary concern today can thus assume that demand will remain signing follow-up contracts, since some is: how much does a seat cost? As a result, high. 4000 locomotives are envisaged. Manufac- Railway Update 3/2007 127

ture will be local in Russia, too. Cooperation locomotives? Would, in your opinion, 1000- If I take 160 days to assemble a locomotive, works similarly to that in China: the core kW vehicles be conceivable for shunting or then the first parts produced lie in the ware- components and the traction technology are delivery purposes? house for 160 days and achieve no profit. supplied from Europe. Schlummer: For the time being we want to We can save money by reducing manufac- RWU: So are the Russians really entering work in this market only if large numbers of turing and testing times. But halving through- the game? When the EP 10 was launched in vehicles are required, and if we are clearly put times again brings no extra advantage, 2000 the word was thatthere would be a big instructed to develop a diesel-electric mod- since what is saved has to be spent on the order soon. For a while Siemens were also el. Diesel-electrics in the range of 1 – 1.2 logistics of doing so. So we need to strike an hoping to gain a foothold. MW make only limited sense when produced optimum balance between manufacturing costs and capital costs. Producing some- Schlummer: The fact is, there’s certainly a in smaller volumes and in competition with diesel-hydraulics. thing in one go with a bit of automation is need. Things are changing in Russia. Sooner better economically than producing it in two or later there will be orders, and Bombardier RWU: And how about upwards? Voith have or three stages. But if I introduce large-scale will surely be involved at some point. What is announced there could be a market for automated production, I need to keep those important is that we remain active locally. 3000 to 4000 kW locomotives. There don’t machines running round the clock to recoup The situation is similar in India. They are seem to be many customers, though. the capital costs. also in great need of locomotives. In India a Schlummer: Same answer: if the market de- For volumes of 150 to 200 locomotives per potential need for 1000 to 2000 locomotives mands such products, then we will examine factory per year, a high degree of automation is conceivable. Having been very successful whether we want to produce them. For the for final locomotive assembly does not really there in the past with the WAP 5 and WAG 9 time being, I can’t see much of a market make sense, but it does for our suppliers’ locomotives, which were built in India to here, however. It is not us who determine the factories. All we then have to do is put the our plans, we think that India offers a good market, it’s our customers. The European components together and breathe technical opportunity to inject some of our new tech- market is currently dominated by four-axle life into the product. nology into future orders. locomotives. This is an area in which we are Nowadays our speciality is in the area of RWU: Your predecessorswere not so fortu- doing very well, as our market share clearly design, platforms, communality and re-use nate with business in India, which was not a highlights. of existing concepts. In addition, we need financial success. RWU: Walking through the shops in Belfort, to ensure that the life cycle costs, i.e. the Schlummer: If the markets are there, we will München or Kassel provides for an inter- maintenance costs, are as low as possible. compete for them. That will prove whether esting comparison. Whereas Belfort works Regarding environmental protection our our technology and business models are quite traditionally with a lot of its own pre- products must consume less in order to be appropriate or not. fabricated and detailed parts manufacturing, more energy-efficient than others. At some RWU: And you will have to manufacture Kassel is a pure assembly line, with Mün- point recycling issues will become impor- locally in India too. chen somewhere in between. If one saw the tant, as in the automobile sector. For exam- Schlummer: Yes, of course. Localisation is X-2000 being built in Sweden in 1992, this ple, if you take a Traxx DE and compare its pretty much standard practice in markets comes almost as a culture shock. CO2 output with that of a traditional German like China, India, Russia, South Africa and Schlummer: Nowadays the locomotive 232 series diesel locomotive, the Traxx’s CO2 Australia. We see this in Spain too, with our business is a tough, price-driven business. emissions are 10 % lower. local partner and in cooperation with Spanish The price is not just the sale price of the RWU: What is your annual capacity? State Railways. It is easier to win contracts if locomotive, it is also the life-cycle price. So Schlummer: We produce more than 150 you can involve local partners. In fact, this is you need to be more efficient than your locomotives each year in Kassel. The equip- often a precondition in the call for tender. competitors from day one. ment we now have enables us to turn RWU: The diesel variant of the Traxx family RWU: Your predecessor said that short outabout 200 to 220 locomotives without sees you entering a market with more com- throughput times on the assembly line in difficulty. petitors than the market for electric locomo- Kassel were decisive in achieving the best RWU: What’s the situation in Vado Ligure? tives. How great is your market share there, price. How long do you currently take to and what are your future prospects? Schlummer: In Vado Ligure we produce assemble a locomotive in Kassel? around 60 locomotives per year. We could Schlummer: Vossloh and EMD are very Schlummer: It is no longer so much a ques- raise that number to around 100 without active in Europe, GE less so. I think there is a tion of throughput times. In the days of the major investments. So in total we could turn market both for diesel-hydraulic and diesel- ICE 1 in the late 1980s, we had throughput out around 300 locomotives per year without electric locomotives. Some customers do times of 80 days for final assembly, then 80 having to invest heavily. Kassel currently not wish to operate diesel-hydraulic loco- days for the commissioning, making 160 produces more locomotives than any other motives in revenue service. Things are dif- days in total. Now we do it in 10 plus 10 factory in Europe, and Vado Ligure is in ferent for shunting locos. The Traxx diesel- days. We could reduce this to 7 plus 7 days, second place. The locomotive bodies all electric model has been a big hit. As well as but that would bring no further economic come from Wroclaw in Poland, except the the locomotives ordered for LNVG and CB advantage. high speed power cars, which are built by Rail, which are currently being built. We are our consortium partner Talgo in Spain. expecting further significant orders in the The question is, how do I minimise produc- medium term, and we have already received tion costs? It has been hugely advantageous RWU: Your main competitor today is Sie- several enquiries. to reduce the amount of stock we maintain. mens. With the relatively simple, cost-effec- The standardised component concept used on the Traxx diesel-electric locomotives (Traxx DE for short) and its AC, MS and DC sister models, plus the associated econo- mies of scale, ensure that this will definitely be an interesting line of business. The advantages for the customer, such as the maintenance concept, will also make the Traxx DE an exceptional product. RWU: Diesel locomotives have a wider performance spectrum than electric locomotives. Are you considering diversifying “downwards”, i.e. developing lower-output

Edmund Schlummer, President, Locomotives, and Alfred Ruckstuhl, Managing Director of Bombar- dier in Switzerland, during the interview in our edi- torial office. Around 200 Bombardier employees in the Locomotives Division work at the company’s premises in Zürich and Turgi (photo: mr). 128 Railway Update 3/2007

tive Traxx you seem to have the edge in the gest customers is a firm that hires out loco- Schlummer: We currently have provisional freight market, while Siemens better meets motives to various railway operators (ROs); approval and operate without Hungarian demand for high speed vehicles. Bombar- these locomotives therefore constantly train control. We are at present handling dier has been saying for a while that it wants change from one operating context to an requests to install Hungarian train control to offer high speed locomotives as well. You other. One day they are used by an RO on the 185.1 locos. indicated previously that a Bombardier loco- which uses only Traxx, the next day they are RWU: Modern locomotives are cost-effec- motive was being tested for 200 km/h with with a company that has Siemens locomotive because – in spite of their procurement prototype bogies. Is that still a secret? tives, then maybe with another company still costs – they require less maintenance than Schlummer: That’s no secret! It’s a normal using 145s and other older locomotives. In older locomotives. But no manufacturer – Traxx bogie with modified gear ratio to take it such an unpredictable freight market, the and here Bombardier is in the same position up to 200 km/h. Our Traxx locomotive meets operating contexts are constantly changing as Siemens – has as good a degree of all the basic technical requirements for – and the change is customer-driven. Why reliability, i.e. the number of incidents per 200 km/h operations, but no clients have yet doesn’t Bombardier offer software platforms 100 000 kilometres, as one would like. In ordered a 200 km/h locomotive. instead of supplying separate software for this respect, the older locomotives, even each delivery? Siemens do not have a plat- The big markets are currently for 140 km/h though they require more maintenance, are form concept, but they are more flexible and still mostly better. vehicles in freight and 160 km/h in regional offer generally-compatible software. After all, passenger traffic. We would be ill advised additional software doesn’t weigh anything. Schlummer: I can only say that the Traxx not to compete in a tender for a 200 km/h Schlummer: That’s not quite true. You need locomotives receive very high scores in loco. But I see no significant need in the the performance listings compiled by our market for loco-hauled trains above 200 km/h. to economise the amount of data being pro- cessed. And the quantity is highest during customers, both in terms of operational RWU: You need drives with full suspension if transition. You cannot exceed what the pro- availability and reliability. They have been you want to operate at above 160 km/h. Is cessor can handle. We have to deal with the given performance ratings far higher than such a drive ready for production? existing micro-processor. those specified in the contracts. Series 185 Traxx locomotives are currently achieving Schlummer: We have fully-suspended It becomes complex due to the varying na- operational availability scores of 99.5 %. motorised wheelsets on the Traxx P 160. tional specifications. You correctly address We have two bogie types. For freight trains the issue of the situation facing a leasing RWU: So you don’t include scheduled main- operating at up to 140 km/h we have the company when locomotives come back after tenance? nose-suspended motor drive, and for three years fitted for countries A, B and C, Schlummer: That’s covered by the passenger trains operating at up to 160 km/h but the next customer wants countries A, B, contracts with our customers. Things are we have the fully-suspended version, such D and E. Here Bombardier’s central signal configured differently for each customer. as on the 146 series. That enables us to device, the basic ETCS equipment installed The 185 is Railion’s yardstick. That has operate at up to 200 km/h. in our locomotives, enables specific trans- a score of 99.5 %. In China the old locomo- RWU: Multi-system locomotives are now a mission modules (STMs) to be exchanged. tives have much lower availability scores. reality, though there are still problems re- That entails conversion, since we did not That’s why western technology is to be garding legal issues and national technical include all the country-specific packages brought to China. constraints. It is thus all the more surprising from the very start – this would have had to The other parameter is reliability: how many that Traxx locomotives operating in dual be paid for. Removing STMs and installing incidents occur per million kilometres trav- traction cannot manage the system change new ones, removing and installing antennae, elled. In many cases, delivery contracts have at the borders. If two locomotives cross a and approvals, all incur costs. Leasing stipulated penalties which we would have to border, even if both are of the same type, the companies know that they will not always be pay to our customers if the contractually rear locomotive must be manually adjusted able to operate all locomotives until the end agreed reliability level were not met. This has by a crew member; many customers do of their service lives with the same set-up never been the case, however. not understand this. Why can’t Bombardier they had when purchased. Traxx is a premium product, as our market manage what Siemens can? Mixed double However, when drawing up their strategies, traction does not work either, and in terms of success demonstrates. We are currently at leasing companies do examine the main traf- the cutting edge. reliability, no supplier is up to scratch. fic flows. They analyse what their customers’ Schlummer: I can’t really confirm your customers want to transport and where RWU: The Lötschberg Base Tunnel will be statement, since we have enough locomoti- to. Along these main traffic routes they will opened in a few weeks. It will be the longest ves that can cross borders in double trac- always be able to make good use of a tunnel in Europe and only accessible to tion. So it is basically on offer. However, not all standard locomotive equipped with three or vehicles with ETCS Level 2. Apart from test customers ask for it or want it as an “add-on”. four country-specific packages. runs, there are not yet any Traxx locomotives with ETCS Level 2. When can these be We are probably further advanced in this Let’s look at locomotives of the same series. expected? Two Re 482s cross a border together. This is matter than our competitors, in view of the possible if the customer orders them that breadth of our market. When you consider Schlummer: Four contracts have been way. Two locomotives of different series, but all the countries in which we have sold our signed to fit Traxx locomotives with ETCS, by the same manufacturer, can do the same: Traxx locomotives, it stands to reason that for example BLS’ Re 485; this will be a Sie- a 185.2 in double traction with an Re 485 – country-specific elements are included in mens ETCS. And the Re 484 is getting the this is feasible if the necessary software is in- our software. As far as possible, the basic Bombardier package. All the vehicles will stalled, i.e. according to customer’s specific software is the same. This “core software” be delivered on schedule. The tests have orders. We have the technical capacity for has no country-specific features. If we start been successful. Interoperability has been this. The third possibility is two locomotives operating in a new country, an add-on is demonstrated between the various trackside from different manufacturers, such as a developed, which we then implement on the suppliers and the onboard equipment sup- Siemens 189 and a Bombardier 185. It has vehicles already delivered in order to keep pliers. Our vehicles have been and are still been demonstrated that this also works. variations to a minimum. on trial through the Lötschberg Base Tunnel, However, most customers don’t need it. Bombardier locomotives have been sold on the new Mattstetten – Rothrist route, as and delivered in most countries in Europe, well as on the Betuwe Route and on the Think of the disengageable Integra magnet HSL-Zuid. – that didn’t exist until two years ago. We for most corridors and with most country- developed it in response to demand. specific packages: we have locomotives What is often overlooked is that we already operating in Spain, France, the Benelux have a year’s experience operating with If customers want to operate double traction countries, Scandinavia, Austria, Switzerland, ETCS Level 1 in Spain on the AVE S102. from Germany to Austria or from Germany to Germany, Italy and Hungary. That’s also still a Siemens system. However, Switzerland, then this is the set-up they will RWU: Hungary? we are currently commissioning our own get. The technical requirement for it, namely Bombardier system on the AVE S130. time-multiplex multiple traction control (ZMS), Schlummer: Yes, TXL and LTE both use is included on our locomotives. For the Traxx Traxx locomotives to operate in Hungary RWU: And Level 2? family this is just a matter of the software. with a Hungarian operator. Schlummer: The AVE S 102 will also be RWU: You regularly stress the advantages RWU: We thought TXL went no further than getting Level 2. The infrastructure is not yet of your platform concept. One of your big- Hegyeshalom. ready, and the route is only fitted for Level 1 Railway Update 3/2007 129

at present. So we operate at up to 300 km/h The new Traxx with Level 1. E 186 101 and 102 multi-voltage locomoti- RWU: 300 km/h with Level 1? ves on the Bözberg Schlummer: In Spain we operate the AVE S North Ramp on their 102 at 280 km/h in revenue service. way to the approval tests at Zeihen in RWU: Can you reveal anything of what we Switzerland might expect to see in the future? (photo: D. Stadelmann, Schlummer: Naturally we are thinking hard 2 May 2007). about the future of locomotives. Our top priorities are cost reductions and the new markets opening up for our products through globalisation. These are also the procurement markets for the components that we can then use in our core markets. This will result in new market conditions. I am not assuming a 50 % reduction in the sale price of a locomotive in the future. But the market will certainly exert pressure. We will follow developments accordingly, but changes are likely to be moderate. Bearing in mind demographic developments, Schlummer: Anything technically feasible Our future competency will lie in providing suppliers currently trying to fill every niche also needs to make economic sense. We are the coupling hook, so to speak. This will have too few technicians and engineers not the kind of company to carry out high coupling hook will need optimum availability available in ten, fifteen or twenty years’ time, speed trials of only limited use to our clien- and reliability, with low life cycle costs. We and will be faced with ensuing problems. We tele. The challenge in both passenger and will need to offer a comprehensive mainte- have chosen a different path with our plat- freight traffic in the next few years will lie not nance concept, i.e. not just for selling the form concept and take the view that if we in making a few routes even faster, but rather locomotive, but also to provide maintenance keep to the platform and expand it prudently, in bringing many routes up to the speeds at for many years at a fixed cost. The custo- in the long term we will have enough people which we can currently operate. If we have mers need to be able to make their calcula- to keep this platform going. an ICE capable of 300 km/h which can only tions with certainty. RWU: What is the next development step operate at 80 to 120 km/h on numerous We also have to to be able to provide sup- of your locomotives? Alstom have been routes, then that is a far greater challenge port and keep our fleets going. Bombardier’s making a lot of noise about having used, than going from 300 to 350 km/h. The latter platform concept is advantageous in this in their world record train, a traction is more of a public relations exercise. As a regard, since we do not need to chase every motor powered continuously by permanent customer, I would be asking myself, “What’s last gap in the market, and thus do not have magnets for exciation. Could you contem- in it for me?” to keep staff available for software updates plate using something like that as a future RWU: Mr. Schlummer, thank you for your and further technical developments. solution? time!