Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 1914

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2256 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

FRIDAY, 27 NOYE:I!BER, 1914. "2. On what' date was the appoint- ment made'l '' 3. \Vhat are his duties? The SPEAKER (Ron. W. D. Armstrong, " 4. What is his salary? LockyEr) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. '' 5. Could not this position have been filled by some officer alrE'ady in the­ PAPER. public service?" The following paper, laid on the table, The SECRETARY FOR AGRIGCLTURE was ordered to tho printed:- (Hon. J. White, .llusgrave) replied- Regulations under the Public Service ,, 1. ';VIr. Jones has been temporarily Acts, 1896 to 1901. appointed to advocate the planting of additional land with wheat, and to pur­ chase 'eed wheat from farmers. PROPOSED l'~EW RAILWAY!:>. " 2. 21st instant. PLANS, ETC., TABLED. " 3. See No. 1. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS " 4. £25 a month. (Ron. W. T. Paget, Jfackay) laid on the · · 5. Yes : but officPrs so qualified are table the plans, sections, and books of required for other duties." reference of the following proposed · new railway extensions:- 1. Gatton to Mount Sylvia; TYPHOID IN NORTHER::\' RAIL\\'AY CA:I!PS. 2. Goondoon towards Kalliwa Creelt ; 3. Extension from Dirranbandi; :VIr. f.IAY (Flinders) a~hd the Hom~> Secretary·- 4. Mundubbera to the Xorthern Burnett; together with the reports of the " 1. Is he aware that there are several Railway Commissioner thereon. cases of typhoid fever in the lengths­ men's camps between Richmond and Ordered that the Commissioner's reports Kanda on the Queensland ::Xorthern be printed. Railway? '· 2. Will he give instructions to the QUESTIONS. health authorities to see into this serious matter? SALARIES OF SAVINGS BANK OFFICERS. "3. Is he aware that one of the Mr. BARBER (BundaberiJ) asked the sufferers from typhoid (now in the· Treasurer- Richmond Hospital), camped in the­ waiting-room of a railway station all " 1. \Vhat are the respective salaries one night, and that nothing was done in and allowances paid to all officers doing regard to disinfecting the room?" State Saving Bank busine•·s, together with the respective names of all such Thu HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. G. ollicers and agencies? Appel, L1lb ert) replied- "2. \Vhat amount, if any, wa" paid " 1. Three ca."es have been notified to by the State to the Commonwealth Go­ the Health Department since 1st July, vernrnent. for carrying on State Savings 1914. . Bank busmess at the various post offices "2. The Health Department has al­ prior to the establishment of the Com­ readv communicated with the local monwealth Savings Bank?" authority concerned. The TREASURER (Ron. W. H. Barnes, "3. Xo." B1llimba) replied- " 1. The hon. member may obtain mo.Jt of the information desired by reference to the _Blue Book, public scTvice list, PRESENTATION TO ::\1.\NAGER OF GovERN>IENT and Estimates. I do not deem it advis­ SAVINGS BANK. able to furnish any more information than is contained in those documents. Mr. KIRWAN (Brisbane) asked the Treasurer- '' 2. The amount paid to the Com­ monwealth Government for the vear '.' 1. IR he aware that a circular re­ prior to the establishment of the Com­ queoting donations towards a presenta­ monwealth Savings Bank was £7 918 tion to the manager of the Government Os. 10d. The avera~·e annual payU:ent Sa,-ings Bank has been issued from the for the five years preceding the estab­ h0ad office to the railwav officials and lishment of that bank was £6,896 2s. 7d." other officers who represent the bank in the country ? " 2. Has the circular in question his POSITION OF MR. A. P. JOXES. authority and approval?" Mr. GILDAY (Ithaca) asked the Secretary for Agriculture- · The TREAS'CRER replied- " 1. To what position in the State ser­ " 1. I was not aware" until making in­ vice has Mr. A. P. JonPs reccntlv a quiries, that such a circular had been candidate for the Senate C~mmonwE:alth issued. Parli_ament, in the Libe;al intere,t, been " 2. The matter was not referred to appomted? me." Co-operative Sugar [27 NovEMBER.] Worlc8 Bilf. 2257

CO-OPERATIVE S"CGAR WORKS BILL. I shall endeavour to argue on those lines, to show that the amendment which was in­ DISSE)i;T FROll! SPEAKER's RVLI!\G. serted in Committee is an amendment which The TREASURER, in moving- has to do with co-operation. I notice that " That Mr: Speaker's ruling, that the the title of the Bill is " A Bill to Provide amendm~11t mserted after line 41, page for the Establishment' and Management of 6,~ clause_ 7, of the Co-operative Sugar Co-operative Sugar \Vorln•." The amend­ \\arks Bill, was wrongl:y inserted and ment which was introduced in Committee should be removed before the third read- really had to do very largely with co-opcra­ - ing of the Bill, be diR.~ented from," twn., .May I ask what " co-operation" is? I thmk the meaning of " co-operate " is said: I regret having to take this step ··to act jointly with others." (Opposition a_lthough I recognise that it is not the first laughter.) I hope I shall not be interrupted time that such a motion ha;; been moved from by han. members, berauoe it is an important the front 'l'reamry bench. I take this course matter, and I would like to be allowed to ~:mly because of the importance of the Bill Itself. and because I believe that the amend­ proceed without interruption and follow my ment_ which . you, Sir, ruled is improperly own line of argument. Cnder the Bill the associated with th:' Bill, is quite in order, corporation-that is, the Treasurer-ha~ the and bec11use I thmk there are authorities right-following out the spirit of co-opera­ which support the view I take of the mat­ twn--to take, purchase, contract for, and to ter. Your 11ction, Sir, mav or may not have make usc of, i± necessary, exi>ting tramlines been ba,ed upon Standing Order 257, which 11nd tramway rights. The true principle of re11ds- the P.ill is embodied in subclause (7) of clause 7, which makes it possible for the " Any amendment may be made to 11 , corporation to do certain things in the direc­ clause:' or other part of 11 Bill provided tion of obtaining certain rights from others, that the •m1endment is relev~nt to the and It seems to me th11t it also makes it subJec!-matter: of the Bill, or pursuant possible for the corporotion-that is, the to_ an Instruction, and is otherwise in con­ formity with the St11_nding Rules and 'frcasurer-and therein, in my judgment, Orders uf the House; bat if an amend­ the amendment is perfectly in order-to give lilPnt is agr::>ud to which j,,, riot within the other side the s11me power to do certain the title of the Bill. the Committee shall thmgs that he takes to himself. In other amend th<' title 11ccordingh·, and report words, it is only right that in those matters tho nmendu:u:-nt ~pecia.~ly tO th~-· House." there ,;hould be mutualitv. To illustrate the soundness of my argument, let me take a I think, _Sir, tlu:t you did not regard the concrete case. John Brown has a tramway, questi:n 11! the light of the latt0r part of an~l the Government say to him, " \V e re­ that Standmg Order, My first duty will be qmre, under certain conditions, to make use to endt•avour to show that the amendment of your tramway!' ?\ow, I ask will not made in Committ'ee, and which was chal­ tl:e spirit of co-operation be mC:re widely lenged in Committee, the challenge being di.;tributed if the Government exhibit a spirit tu_rn?d down by the Chairman, is absolutely of mutuality and say to John Brown, " \Ve withm_ the four c;•rncr, of the BilL ::\ow, demand tlv> right to run over your lines if wh11t IS tho object of the Bill? we find it necessary to do so, but we are The SPEAKER: Order! I draw the at­ prepared to extend to you the same right tention of the hmL gentleman to the fact over our tramways?" The point is: Does the that the quc,tic-n under discussion is dissent amendment come within the scope of the from my rulin~. My ruling is specific- Bill? I contend that it doe:;, I contend that " The point raib£'d by th" han. membE'r it is in order, as it comes within the general for Chillagoe is that this amendment rule of relevancy, and because it provides which he seeks to remove "from claus~ reasonable conditions upon which a certain 7 of the Bill, deals with new matter power provided b;, the Bill is to be granted. whic-h was not contained in the Bill as It provides for mutuality between the parties read a sc•cond time and referred to the concerned, In other wordc, instead of break­ Committ<'c. I am of the opinion that ing- down the spirit of co-operation, the in­ thp point is rightly taken. and that the clusion of this amendment widens that spirit Bill should :be recommitted and .the and helps it very materially. The amend­ ·amendment rPmoved." ment proposes to give power of reciprocity equivalent in extent to the power proposed I suggest to the Trt:a&nrer, and to those to be given by the Bill to the corporation. han. members who may follow him that The amendment provides that, for the con­ the principles of the Bill will not b~ open duct of the business, the Treasurer-that is, to di~<'usslOn, bu~ that the question chould the corpor-ation-shall be .able to extend to b_e diSCUSh'd enhrely apart from the poli­ other mills th11t may be in the same area hc::l or p<>rsonal aspect of the ruling. :M v as a co-operative mill the privileges which rubng. I ma::· c.ay, \\as bac"d upon Standing he claims for himself, upon his being satis­ Order l~l- fied that that is necessarv. One of the " The Committee shall consider such foundations of any Bill which is introduced matters only as han\ been rdE:IT~d to it in this Chamber is the principle of justice. by the House!' The Bill is framed on a foundation of jus­ I should like it to be shown-and I trust tice, and it seeks to establish what is an the han. gentleman is prepared to show­ absolute act of justice. The Bill says that under tha,t Stan:ling Order th11t my ruling we are asking for something, and in order is ultra VJ res. to be absolutely fair, we are .aha prepared The TREASURER : I can assure you Sir to giYe something. ":May," on page 479, that my one desire is not to transgres~ th~ says- limits of fair discussion, and I am sure every' " The object of an instruction i,s, there· han. member regards the matter in its full fore. to endow a committee with power seriousness. I take it that I am quite in whm·ebv the committee can nerfect and order in stating that it seems to me that complete the legislation defined by the the principle of the Bill is co-operation, and

1914-6 y Han. W. H. Barnu.] 2258 Co-operative Sugar [ASSEMBLY.] Works Bill.

content;. of the Bill, or pxtend the pro­ ' The PREMIEH : I second the motion, viBions of a. Hill to cognate objects; and :.\Iy colleague correctly remarks that a motion an attenl}Jt to engraft novel 11rinciples to dissent from the Speaker's ruling is rarely into a Bill. which would be irrelevant, moved from tho Treasury bench. foreign, Oi" contradictory to the decision OPPOSITION l'viE:IrBERS: Hear, hear! of the HousB taken on the introduction and oeconcl reading of the Bill, is· not The PRE::\1IER : There are instances in within the due province of an instruc­ which the Premier has so moved, and it will tion." be recognised that the Ministers who moved OPPOSITION ME~BERS : Hear, hear ! and supported the motion of disagreement were distinguished characters in this House, The TREA~GREH: The Committee, on and their names are honoured in the country. the information before it, came to the con­ In 1893 Sir Thomas Mcilwraith, Premier of clusion that the· amm,dment was within the the State, moved that Speaker Cowley's ruling scope of the Bill, and the decision come to be dis9ented from. At that time the Attorney­ was an absolutely just and an absolutely fair General was the Han. T. J. Byrnc5, than one. whom there ha1 been no more brilliant legal The SPEAKER: I point out to the Trt:.1- mind in this House-(hear, hear !)-and he surer second time that the relevancy of supported that motion. Again, two years the amendment in regard to the Bill has not aftl'n' ards, two other motions were moved been attacked at all, and the Spe·aker has to d,.,.,cmt from the rulings of the Speaker, given no ruling upon that point. The and l notice, on looking at the division lists, Speaker ha;: given a ruling that the Com­ that everY member of tho Administration mittee dealt with a matter which, under , voted in 'favour of those motions. Again, Standing Ord,or No. 161, was not included Mr. Speaker, when you were acting as De­ in the Bill when it passed its second r" within -the· ordu· of leave, I that the Speakc•r's ruling b Committee of the Whole. I contend, Mr. Speaker, that you had no I do not wish to take an unfair advantage, right to rule on the question. In the first and I am quite prepared to admit that there place, Mr. Speaker refused to interpose; is another opinion further on which was but, later on, he did SO- Mr. Speaker followed at one period in connection with should h::tve left the House to deal with parliamentary procedure, but to some extent tho matter itself. He should have left it this has dropped out of practice. to the House to say whether it would send Mr. FoLEY: Read what it says further on. the Bill back to the Committee or not, but Mr. Speaker interposed and ruled that the The TREASURER : I am going to do so. point raised by the hon. member for Chilla­ " Bourinot," on page 394, says- goe was a good one. That 'is why I am taking " The law on the relevancy of amend­ my stund to-day. ments seems now to be that if they are Mr. ·THEODORE: The point of order was on the same subject-matter with the whether the amendment was rightly in the original motion thf·y are admissible, but BilL not when foreign thereto. The excep­ The PREMIER : The Speaker had no tions to this rule are amendments on the right to intervene in a matter that had its question of going into supply or ways origin in Committee . .and means." Mr. MuRPHY: Speakers have given a rul­ Han. members will have an opportunity of ing without being appealed to at all. giving their vie,,: of the matter, I consider that the amendment comes withm the order Th,, PRE::'IHER: Never on a matter that of leave, and therefore I beg to move the comes from the Committee. motion standing in my name, believeing, as I Mr. MuRPHY: Yes. Speaker Bell did so do, that the decision come to by the Chair­ two or three times. man of Committees, whilst in the ch

Th0 PREliiiER : The Committee of tho himself as to the pointe at issue. I previ­ "\Yhole is an entity in itself absolutely, and ous]~- had my mind made up. -I thought in Committee the Cha.irman is supreme. "Mr. Speaker hns his doubts on this Several members interjecting. question," and so I was confirmed in my view. This amendment yov have ruled out The PRE:\1IER : This is not a matter for of ordN on tho ~~round that it does not ·<"ross-firing across tho Chamber. I am try.. comply with Standing Order No. 161, which ing to elaborate my argument, and if I am ~aYs--- 'vrong. flomeone C'fln put me right. It is . "The Committee shall con-ider euch a dangerous precedent for the Speaker to matters onlv as have been referred to criticise or comment on the doings of the it by the Iiouse." Committee of th,- Whole. Tho \Vhat was referred to the Committee? [4 p.m.] Committee of the Whole is a :Matters dealing with easements and .thu distinct entitv of tho House. It traffic over C"ertain trannvays. Surely,·· if is such a well-known pr!nciple ·that ":May" such matt.cr, were not rderred to tho Com­ is wholly Rilent on the quo-.tion, and except mittee, then we never shall know what is when a mr•mber is named bv the Chairman coverBd by a second reading; we shall need of Committees, no question is referred to the to have everything categorically set out, and Speaker thr,t has bPen determined in Com­ ju:,t walk on a chalk line from which we mitte,~. At tho rPport stage of tho Bill the may not deviate a hair's breadth. · The han. mPmber for Uhilla)?;oe raised the point, amendn1ent ih rognatp, and relevant, and I .and you then very rightly dBclined to review cannot recall an amendment less open to the ruling of the Uhairman, and yet the ,,ame objection on tho scom of relevancy. Wliat is point was raised on the third-reading stage, the object of gcing into Committee? The and by some means or other it was .allowed, object is to complete and perfect th<• legisla­ and vou gave a ruling. I think it is clear tion rcftrrcd to it. that Mr. Speaker was familiar with the point that was going to be raised. I should imagine Mr. HARDACRE: The amendmPnt is out:-iide that the hon. mombPl· for Chillagoe would the order of leave. in the ordinary way consult :Mr. Speaker with respect to the motion he desired to The PRE~IIER: It is not. It is not a submit. and. therefore. :Hr. Speaker !mew noYel prinC'iplP; it i~ entirely in accordance tho question. and had ample time to look with t:w principlo embodied in the clause. up authorities before he took his seat. It is not foreign or contradictory to the ,]..,ci·,ion of tho Hou:;e on tho second rectding 11r. RYAX: You do that with notices of of the Bill. The amendment is strictly in Inotion. accorclance with the rule laid down in Stand­ ing Order K o. 161 ; it secures natural justice The PRE11IER : And the fact that the and reciprocity. Certain powers are given in ruling was so brief. so lucid, and so the clause to the corporation to take Base­ emphatic ,atisfies me that Mr. Sp<>aker ments over certain lands and certain Tunning had giYen the matter consideration. Then, right', ;md all that .is sugg;;><,ted herP i·l re­ why did Mr. Speaker invite hon. members cip"ocity. What ic good to tln one is good of the HouS<' to dis<,US~ the question'! It to the other, mutually advantageous, and I is usual so to do in doubtful issues, but can see that the mcJt serious disabilities clearly, from the manner and matt••r of the mav ot'\~ur if such 1nutua.l coneessions ure ruling, there was nothing doubtful in his not' conc0cled. Therefore, I find it to be mind; the ruling is given in the cour:ce of my boundE'n duty, as leader of the House, a short sPntence, and, therefore, it looks to to support the Treasurer in his motion, and me very needle"s that :Mr. Speaker should to point out that, in my opinion. Mr. have invited discussion in the House. Speaker had no right to revif•\\ a point of order settL·d i:1 the CommittfJG of the Several Opposition members interjecting, Whole; that the amendment ic cognate and relcYant and in hanLony with the principles The PREMIER: Mr. Speaker. will you of the Bill as introduced and read a second give me protection from the back Opposition time; and that whilst etiquette should sway benclw

perhaps it is no compliment to the hon. tive sugar-mills? If the amendment can l"' gentleman who adduced arguments before wao introduced into the Bill in Co!nmittee. Treasurer-that is, the corporation-for per­ Yonr ruling, Mr. Speaker, is based upon mis-oion to acquire running right, over John your interpretation, which, by the way, I Brown's tramways, and the Treasurer has may ffiy is the only interpretation that power to give those rights under this amend­ c-rative sugar-works. For that whole business. \Ve had to consider the rce-wn. I think it· is far better that one desirableness of introducing a Bill to pro­ :;Jwuld stop his argument at a point which vide for the establio.hment and management may be obvious to everybody th~n to cover of en-operative sugar-works. Does the it np by a reference to aut horitiL:ii. The subject muttm· of this amend1.wnt come Bill is quite unworkable from the TrPCh'·ur.·r's within the scope oi what w"s refened to point of view. If he had cnd<'avourcd to the llon'e? In order to arriYe at a con­ haY<' an arnf"londnH'nt introduC'cd which 'Yculd ciusion upon that, we must examine what b~J ('OnfineToowong) : I think of the corporation under this subsection a question of this L-ort should be approached shall be exercisable only on good cause by members on both sides of the Hous.- with shown by, and as the agent of, and at a d0sire to protect the righh-. of members on the sole 0xpense of, the company or both sides, bcc,mse what may hR the position person or body of persons concerned." of the Government to-day may be the posi­ tion of the OnJosition to-morrow. I listened It is rNtlly a definition of "sugar-works." with interest to the ~pecch of the len,der of Subcvdion (7) of clause 7 confers certain the Opposition, a.nd I must say that I nc•ver po\vers on tho corporation, and says- •heard a less convincing speech come from a " The corporation shall have power man so well equipped as the hon. member is from time to time to take, purchase, to ·dt al with a technical matter of this sort. contract for the use of, or otherwise Not a >.liadow of an authority from all the providn any land which may be required parliamentary authorities open to hon. mem­ for the sug-ar-works, or any railway, bers has been quoted, and we can only come tramway. wharf, or other work, and to to the conclusion that there is no authority acquire running rights over any tram­ to support the contention of the hon. mem­ way." ber, or that the industry of the partv on Those arc the powers giv0n bv the Bill as tho other side could find none. The· sum it was introduced in Committee. 'rhe Com· total of thP argument of the lr•adci· of the mittce extended those powers of the cor­ Opposition is that in passing the amendment poration. and the question is: Did thPy the Committee went further, perhaps, than "xtcnd th<> powers beyond what would be it was wise to go. That is practically what incid<>ntal to t.he ca.rrving cut of the object the hon. member's argument amounts to, of th<> Bill-that is, the promotion of the but that does not render the amendment establishment and management of co-opP.ra- irrelevant, o,- make the amendment a matter ~lifr Ryan. Co-operative Sugar [27 NovEMBER.] Works Bill. 2261

which was not referred for the consideration that, perhaps, shows that the ttmendment scd the power which the instructions that I then spoke on the spur of the moment, would confer; that is to say, the amendment l ha.-e given more careful attention to the was relevant and the instructions therefore nuttt"r ihan I should otherwi'e have donP. unnecc:-;sary. That cJ,;;p;;s of f'Shes 1s to be l ha.-e go!le very carefully into the ma.tter, found urd-~r the heading '' Cla€A 2," on page a~1? I say now that I thoroughly endorce the 937 of the eleventh edition of " May," and OJl!lliOn I expressed yhterduy, ti1at the t•hore hon. mcmbe1s will find a very large amendment which is the subject matter of nurnbor of {'aSE"'" of amendnrents ·which thi··· discu"•-ion is relevant to the Bill and bidently in the minds of experiencPd parlia­ being rclrvant to thi.' subject-mJ.tter .;f the mentaricms required instructions, but which Bill it comes within those mattei'l which wore the Speaker of the House of Commons, in rcferre e n1ust School Bill of 1897 and an amendment. An tuke a Bill as w'' find it, and pao·' it through in,;truction \~',as ns~;;:~d for the insertion of a Co'nmittee as we find it. ]'he whole thin~ cluu~e to provide as a. condition of receiving hinges upon the question whether the amen~ the aid gr-ant that no teacher in a voluntary mont is relevanlo to the subjf'ct-matter of the oehool f-noul-d be required to perform any Bill a" referred to the CommittE'<'-those are non-ccluclttional duties. 'This is a .-cry differ­ the words of the Standing OrderF.. 'Though (·nt eubject, but it shows there that a pro­ I t;ee that )OU, Sir, do not agTee with me:, I visiDn '\Yas n1u•de in a Bill VJ give a. certain am unable to see the distinction >ou make. grant and it was considered necessary or If a Bill is referred to the f'om1;,ittee, the dn,irablc bv an hon. member to attach a Bill itvant to the oubject-matter of the Bill gPsted a~. foreign to tho subject-matter of the and not antagor.istic to other wcll-knm; n Bill-that is to 'a.y, that it was irrelevant. rules i; referred to the Committee. If such An imtruction was asked for, and it was is not the case, then I do not know where decided by the Speaker of tho House of we are in Committee. I ,ubmit that that Comrnons that. an in~truction 1vaM not neres­ must be taken to he the substantial position. eary for the purpose of introducing the con­ If you refer to "May," you will find it very dition and that it could br introduced as a difficult. to fi:'d exprL'ss authority d(1aling relevant amendment. '!.'her~ is a variety of \Ylth this particular matter. The mtttte" is cages refen-cd to, but I think the one I mo~,"- partic~lar!;; ·disc_usscd !-'ndf'r the head mention illustrates that the position taken ,Df Instructions. It 1s coming to be recog­ up by the 'Treamrer is quite a reasonable nised now-a,-days that you cannot get an one. I haYe no d0ouctions just as much as it prc:·,s what I b0lieve to be a correct opinion excludes amendments. Authorities may be on the subj ('Ct, I think that your ruling is found for this c'-latement. As has been said wron~, and I propose to support the opinion by the Premie" and the 'Treasurer. the sub­ I have form0d by voting in fayour of the ject-matter of the anwndment in this case is motion of the Treasurer. cognate to, and ic, by no means contradic­ tory of, the principle of the Bill, and it C\1r. M'L'HPIIY (Burke) : Mr. Speaker,-­ comes in even \\av under the order of leave 'Tho House is asked to disagree with your for the introduct.io'n of the Bill. In fact, it ruling on the ground that the amendment amounts to the imposition of a condition in inserted in the Co-operative Sugar Works rf'g<>rd to the granting of certain rig·hts of Bill, at the instance of the 'Trettsurer, does resumption which am given to the corpora­ not <'mbod;- a new principle. In order that tion under the Bill. This House, in its members may come to a just conclusion on -wisdom, says, " Yes, we will grant the power the point, th

say'', ' The second reading is the most Bill were placed before His Excellency the unpo.rtant stage through which the Bill is Governor and the usual message was ob­ ~cqmred to pass; for its whole principle tained, nothing was contained in the Bi!I 1s then at 1ssue, and 1s affirmed or denied with regard to acquiring running rights for by the vote of th<; House, though it is private millowners. ~1ot regu_lar. on th1s occasion to discuss OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! m. d_etc,!l 1te, snvm·al clauses.' Tho prmmple having been affirmed the Bill ~Ir. MURPHY: The whole Bill dealt with co-operative enterprise_ Absolutely nothing lS _ then remitted to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration in de­ was said about securing running rights for tad, a.nd the Committe,: can only con­ private millowners, and that point was SH!c'r cu<:h matt<'rb as {lro referred to never mentioned in connection with the Bill until learned counsel came to the bar of the then1 and can no 1nore introduce or mn­ House, After that, it is true that certain b'?dy a principle than the Hous.,, can hen. member" sitting behind the Govern­ d1sc~·s or amend details on its second ment suggeFted that action should be taken ~ead1~g. ~n ' ::\1'''<'d and before it goe, into Com': was embodied in it, but that it also should rnlt'~'eP, to I!love that it be an instruc­ have boon ruled out of order on the ground ti~n to th?. Cohl;nittL o to ~onsider any that it imposed an extra charge on the otnPr iX'Cl~Ic rcH~'') ant 1natter. If the Crown. Hens~ affirm thi; motion the Committee The PBDHER : \Vhich it does not. will co::tsidcr the matter ~cferrPd to them as thout~h it werc emLodied in the Bill :i:\Ir. nlt:RPHY: We will leave that point on it, sc<:ond n'adin!~;· 'Ihis, I may point out of it altogether. The Premier, or the Trea­ out, ani"\VCrb the .argurnPnts of the hon. surL~r~ or any n1ember \vho has so far spoken member for Enoggera, :Mr. Drake." from the Government side of the House, has not attempted to show that it is not em­ Now, if we. t~un to " May," page 383 of the bodying a new principle. They mu"t con­ eleventh edltwn, we find this- foss that the priiH'lplc of securing running rights for private n1illownPrs as not .. A C.:om~1ittee can only consider those co~­ mat',ers wh1eh have been committed to tained in the Bill as submitted to this Cham­ them by the House. If it be desirable ber, or as it wus dic•cussed on the second read­ that other matters should also be ~con­ in!!'. There was no dause in that Bill, no pron1ise; no arrangenu!nt ,vas 1nade for sidered, an instruction is given by the seruring the inclusion of anv clause in that House, to <'rnpower the Committee to Bill which would secure t'o private mill­ entertain them. An instruction is moved o,vners running rights over trarn-ways that as a distinct question, after the Order were to be constructed under co-operative of the Day ha.< been read, and must be enterprio;e. I submit that the whole Bill cons1dered before the Speaker leaves the dealt with co-operative enterprise as against cha1r, under Standing Order 5L" private enterprise, and. conse­ On page 471, we find this- [4.30 p.m.] quentlv, your ruling that the introduction of the amendment ir~ " The day having been appointed for the Committee stage of the Bill securing the second .reading, the Bill stands running rights for private millownors em· upon the notwe-papor, amongst the other bodied a new principle, was absolutelv cor­ Or~ers of the Day, and is called upon rect. I C<'l'tainlv trust that members of the ~',' 1ts proper turn, when that day arrives. Chamber will deal with the matter apart lhe se,'litic a! or pctrty bias. and stage through wh1eh the Bill is required that they will reeognige that, in dealing to pas;; for i.t' w~ole principle is then with the Standing Orders and rulings by the­ at 1ssue, and 1s affirmed or denied by a Speaker or Chairman of Committees, we vote of the House." have to prokct the rights and intereste of members of this Chamber. I submit that That, of course, was quoted by Sir Alfred good grounds have been shown wiw the 9ow:ey.. And th~n, o~ page 478, ~-e find the House should uphold your ruling, and' I sin­ mstructwns to Uomm1ttees on B1lls, which cere! v trust that the .-ate will be in your was also quoted b:y Sir Alfred Cowley. We favour. h.a,~e no':" to cons1der what were the prin­ mples affi~med on the second reading of the . Mr. GRA::\:r' (Fit.cro!l) : I am not going to Co-operative Sugar. Works Bill. Briefly put, d1scu'' tho pomt raised b:v oth0r members, but they were these : Fust, that the Government only the point raised bv th<' Premier. I were ~mpowered to advance certain money think points of order in· the House. in re­ to. ass1st sugar-growers to erect co-operative gard to the comtitutional work of the House, mllls ; secondly, that the Government were should be dis<:u83ed quite apart from one's empower(_)d to advance money to assist the party feelings altogether. A• you know ::l-Ir. co-operatwn to purchase existing mills · and Speaker, and no one knows better. the thirdly, that the Government wer~ em: Speaker is not suppm;ed to be cognisant of po~ered to. secu~e for co-operative enter­ anything done in Committee. The Chair­ pnses n;nnmg nghts over existing tram­ man of Committees has entire charge in Com­ ways. Now, at the time the objects of the mittee, and the Speaker only comes in >Yhen_ [ 1lfr. 1lfurphy. Oo-operativr Sugar [27 NOVEMBER.] Trorks Bill, 2263 tho Chairman of Committees reports a mem­ \Vorks Bill was wronglv inserted and ber or makes his report after leaving the ,hould be removed before" the thir'd read.­ chair in Committee. On- the point raised by· ing of the Bill, be dissented from;'' the Premier I want some information. Has there l I'E'r been a rul\ng givE'n in which the That the Speaker had the right to give such Speaker has gone againot the ruling of the a ruling has not been questioned so far- ·The Chairman of Committees? If so, I would member for Toowong stressed the point and be glad to learn of them. tried to impress the House with the fact thnt this am.mdment was relevant· because \ Mr. M1.•RPHY: ::\lr. Speaker Bell did. it dealt with kindred subjects to those dealt Mr. GRANT: ::\Ir. Speaker Bell did not. with bv the Bill-because it dealt in sonie. I have just read up Mr. Speaker Bell's rPmote- way or other with the question of rulings. \Vhen l\lr. Leahy " as Speaker, a the sugar industry, it was relevant as it was point was rai·--cd in connection with the a kindred subject, and, therefore, it was­ Income Tax Act, and ::'vir. JYia.~artney, the competent for the Committee to insert the member for Toowong, brought the matter up amendment. The hon. member, last year,. in the Hruse_ and he ·-aid he thought the raised a point o£ order on a somewhat simi­ ruling given by tho Chairman of Committees lar quc,tion-Dn an amendment moved by the was against the Standing OrdE'rs. \Vhen hon. member foi·11aranoa regarding mineral speaking on the quc,tion, 1fr. JYiacartney oil and coal. An amendment was given said- notice of by the hon. member for Maranoa " The words which I propose shall be that tho motion for the introduction of the added are: -'After sub,ection (vii.) of sec­ Bill be amPnded in such a way as would tion 13 of the principal Act, the follow­ admit o'f the nationalisation of the mineral imr subscctioa is inserted :- ' I veil! not oil industry. Certainly a kindred subject, take up the time of tho House bv reading but e-i·idently, according to the Speaker, through the whole of tho amendment, as not relevant to the motion, and, consequently, hon. members know what it is. the · point raised by the hon. member for Toowong was uphold and it was ruled out "The Treasurer: I-• this the qut•stion of order. I want to strPSS .this point: that, before the H ousP '! although it v>as a kindred subject, it qer­ "The· SPEAKER: The question before tainly wai' not relevant to the subject dealt the Hous? is that the Bill be considPred. with in the Bill. This amendment may be a kindred subject, but it is not reievant to " An Honourable :i\1ember : Y<•s. the objects of the BilL There have been " The SPEAKER : Has this amendment rulings given on parallel cases to this in been proposed in Committee? this House previously. \Ye have only to " Hon. R. PHILP : It was proposed in harp back to those to be guided as to what Committee, and the Chairman ruled that is -the correct thing in regard to the motion it was not rPlevant to the Bill, with we have been discussing. In my opinion, which ruilng I did not agree, although the amendment certainly was not relevant, I did not move that the Chairman's and it was not competent for the Committee ruling be disagreed with. to insert it, became it was not referred to the Committee by the House. I do not "The SPEAKER: The Speaker may have think it would have been competent for the his own opinions about motions that House to give an instruction to the Com­ come before him, but there is a well­ mittee to insert such an amendment as the defined practiPe of the House of Com­ Treasurer had inserted after the Bill had mom and in this House, that where the been introduced and the scope of the Bill Chairman of Committeoo gives a ruling, defined. Upon the question of relevancy the Sp(·aker does not review that ruling. and the question of whether, if the subject If the Chairman of Committees ruled is merely kindred to the principle, it is com­ this ~mt of order, then, following the petent for the Committee to accept it, a practice of the House of Commons I do ruling was given by the present Speaker-as not think there is any cour 10 or; en to Deputy Speaker-in 1910, in regard to an nw but not to review that ruling. amendment moved on the Electoral Districts "1Ir. Macartney: Right or wrong. Bill by the hon. member for Ipswich, Mr. :Maughan. The amendment was to "The SPMKER: I think so, without at broaden the scope of the Bill in order that least time to consid<'r it." some provision might be ;,,,.erted dealing 'That io the point, and, speaking quite· dis­ with the franchise. The amendment dealt passionately, I would like to learn of some with the electoral machinery and was kin­ instance where the SpPaker has taken up dred to electoral matters. but that did the position of rcvi<'wing a ded,;ion of the not make it relevant, and the Speaker ruled Chairman of Co'?mittecs. I have gone care­ it out on the ground that it was not rele­ fully through ruhng, by ::VIr. Speaker Cowley, vant and contemplated the introduction of Mr. Speaker Bell, and some by ::Yir. Speaker a princ-iple not affirmed on the second read­ 11organ, and I cannot find an in;tance. I ing. I could give numerous instances of may be wrong, and there may be some in­ casPs haYing arisen during the last two or stantTS where the Speaker has overruled throe vears, where it was sought to get the Chairman of Committee's, but if so, the House to affirm principles kindred to I would br· glad to learn of them. the principles of the Bill. but not relevant to the Bill, which have been ruled out of Mr. THEODORE (Ch;;/lagoe): I do not order, time and again, by the present intend to touch on the point raised by the Speaker and by preYious Speakers. There­ hon. member for Fitzroy, because it is abso­ is one ruling of yours, Mr. Speaker, that lutely foreign to the matter we are dis­ I want to quote, because, to my mind, it cussing. \Ve are discuesing the Treasurer's is very appropriate to the subject we are­ motion, reading- discussing. The ruling was given in 1911-12, " That Mr. Speaker's ruling, that the as recorded on page 1809 of " Hansard," amendment inserted after line 41, page voL cix. During the discussion on the Cairns 6, clause 7, of the Co-operative Sugar Harbour Boards Bill, Mr. Ryan moved an Mr. Theodore.] ro-operaiive Sugar [ASSEi'IIBLY.] Works Bill. amendment to insert after the word " Bill " the Tre-asurer, once the second r~ading <;f a. the words "to consolidate and make uni­ Bill has been affirmed and the B1ll gets mto form the lawg relating to harbour boa,·ds Committee, the Opposition may move amend­ in Queensland." According to the -dictum ments of any nature whatever so long as of tbe hon. member for Toowong-. that would theY are <'ven remotely connected with the be perfectly in order, became it dealt with eub'ject-matter of the measure. In th~ in­ .a kindred subject, but the Bill was limited t -rests of the orderly conduct of busmess to the question of establishing a harbour and in the interests of the due observance of board for Cairns. ·when the motion was our Standing Orders, I think, Sir, that your moved by the hon. member for Barcoo, 11r. ruling should b0 allowed to stand. Speaker said- Mr. LARCOMBE (Keppel): The Premier ., I do not propose to accept this e.ttemptr,d to prove that you, S_ir, _ had no amendment. It is certainly kindred to jurisdiction in this matter, but 1t rs rat~er the €ubject embraced in tho Trea:mrer's remarkable that he' did not raise th:tt pomt motion, but is embraces the wholr· quee<­ before you gave your ruling. It was only tion irt relation to harbour boacds when you gave a ruling contrary to what the generally, and while the motion would hon. f'entleman thought you ~hould have be relevant to the amendment, the given that he rai.;ed the questwn of :':'o.ur amendment is not rPlevant to the jurisdiction. However, there are authontws motion.'' which _,how lucidlv that the Speaker has Precisely th :•· same rul inr; would have been jurisdiction in a m'atter such as this. ~ fin~ given If the Treaourer had moved the amend­ that on page 254 of "Votes and Proceedmgs nwnt b;.· ''• ay of an instruction to the Com­ for the :;ession of 1895- mittee. I contend there could be no other " Mr. Speaker ruled that cla~ses 7 and course Lken, and that you, Sir, would have 8 (of the Raihv ays Bill) were m contr~­ ruled th.1t the motion was out of order on vention of the 18th clause of the Consh­ the ground that it was not cognate to the tution Act." subject-matter of the Bill, and, th<:>rdore, it The ruling was given upon t?e Or?er of the was not compet:·nt for the House to agree Day being read for the COJ?-SJder'!-hon of the to gi VP .cuch an instruction. I <.on tend that Bill as ainended. That rulmg, gJVe_n so long your ru!ing \Yas an al ~olut{~lv sound one. ago "' 1895, supports your rulmg, and There arc ~~uffic1t·,nt prece-dent; in our o\vn pron:s conclusively i·hat you ~a,:e _fol_lowf!d proeocdings to 'UIJport it, without going out­ precedent, and that you h1•ve JUrrsdJctwn .m side for :wtlwritie;. .All the rulings given thP matter, and there has been no authorrty in this Parliamrnt .are in the one direction, brought forward to. the contrary. Ft:rther, and rnako it out of order to insert in Corn­ I think there is support for your rulmg to mittce or mo\ e by way of instruction from be found on page 192 of "~lay," where I the House a princip''' \vhich has not been find th(Jse words- afilrme:l on \hP g,,cond reading or which is " The Speaker is responsibl~ for the not \"ithin the order of leuve. The quota­ due enforcement of the rules rrghts, and tion t}' e Tr{'::u;ur:'r rt:ad from "~1.av" \Yas privileges of the House." diredly aga;Jbt hiuself. This is the' quota­ tion- And further- '· T1w obj0et of an instruction is, " In accordance with his duty, he de­ tlwrdor<', to endow a committee with clines to submit motions which obviously power whercl:J~· the committe:, can per­ infri!lge ~he rule.l which govern its pro­ fect Lml com;,lete the legislation -defined ceedmgs. b: the contcmh of the Bill, or extend The Speaker has the right to refuse to put thn urovision~o of .a Bill to cognate anv motion that infrinp;es the rights or the object·'; and an attempt to engraft privileges of the House. novel princi11lcs into a Bill, which would be irrelcvaut, foreign, or contradictory Mr. MACROSSAN: The right to give a rul­ to the decision of the Home taken on the ing does not nec.eRsarily justify tha.t ruling. ;ntroduction and second reading of the Mr. LARCOMBE: I am dealing with the Bill, is not within the due province of qm.. _.t;on of jurisdiction. an in.struction.'' Mr. MACROSSAX: You say that that is an There is no doubt that the amendment which argument in 'upport of the ruling. was inEerted in CommittAe was " irrelev-ant Ol.lld foreign" to one of the principles of the Mr. LARCOMBE: I think it bears that Bill, and it certainlv does not come ,., ithin con'trwc·tion also, because I contend that the scope of the orde.r of leave, and not even evidence has also been adduced to show within the title of the Bill. The title of the that the new matter inserted in the Bill was foreign to the principles of the Bill. Bm gives no indication at all that tl1e power sought to be conferred upon the corpo,·ation Mr. ~1ACROSSAN: Th<1.t is begging the by the Treasurer', amendment was en·r con­ whole question. templated when the Bill was originally Mr. LARCOMBE: I do not think so. be­ dr-afted. I contend, Sir, that your ruling cause it has alreudy been proved conclu­ was perfectly sound, and it woul·d be sively, to my mind, by t_he _ leader of the dangerous and unwise for the House to upset Opposition that a new prmCJple was mtro­ that ruling. If the House should, unfortu­ duced. The hon. gentleman gave an illus­ nately, upset it. I take it it will form a tration to Rhow that this new principle could precedent for future guidanc<'. and any be applied as between two proprieta~y COJ?­ .amendm€'nt may be moved in a Bill, how­ pani<"S where there was no co-operatrve m1ll ever irrelevant, foreign, or contradictory it concerned at all. may be to the subject-m11tter of the Bill. Mr. ::"'IACROSSAX : Are you not confusing a That is an exceedingly unwise thing to do, principle with a detail? for it will open the -door to endless possi­ bilitie3 in the way of stonewalling in Com­ Mr. LARCOMBE: No. This is a prin­ mittee. According to the evident desire of ciple, and not .a detaiL The Treasurer can [.1lh. Theodore. Go-opcraiiv.~ Sugar [27 1\0V.EMBEB.] Works Biil. 2265

·confer certain rights upon proprietary com­ ing, to rule as you did. The amendment panies without dealing with co-operative submitted is foreign to the Bill. Had it companies. That proves conclusively, to my been proposed that, in addition to granting mind, that there was a new principle intro­ rights to co-operative bodies, a nght be duced. The only question that requires proof granted to other persons outside the corpora­ is the question of jurisdiction, and previous tion, this House might not have agreed to Spe:tkers have given rulings under precisely the principle of that Bill at all. I therefore, similar circumstance;~ If that is so-and no contend that the running rights are of much evidt'nce to the contrary has b<:>en produced­ advantage to the co-operative bodies, and I think we arc justified in concluding that Mr. they are a protection to the Urown for the Speaker has j uri,diction. To my mind, that money th'-w pro pose to advance to these is the only queotion at issue-all other point• co-operativG companies, and, to make -doubly have berm pro..-ed. The leader of the Oppo­ sure that these companies might succeed sition and his colleague' have shown con­ the Ilouse is preparea to advance a sum of -clusivelv that there was new matter intro­ money equal to two-thirds of the cost. So ved in Committ':O, then there is no need to discuss the principl<:> of the Bill on the Mr: Hu:\'TER (Jlaranoa): Mr. Speaker, spcond reading at all, if the Committee are -I 1"1.'•8 to supvort the ruling gi\·en by you on to determine what is to be the character of th1s matter. lldorc 1 proceed to deal with the legiPlation submitted to this House. that, I wish to d~aw attention to page 2203 That would be contrary to all recognised of "' Hansard " of this session, which has r~les an~ practice, and _it would be a prac­ been handed to me hy the hon. member for tlc0 forergn to all Parliaments and foreign Burke, who omitted it from the very fine to the pr,tcticc followed in Queensland. I arg:ument made by him in support or your trmt that han. members will throw aside all rulmg. The Trr amrer, in~ introducing this party feeling and rise to the importance of .amendment, said that he had indicated to this matt~r, because a ruling such as yours i.~ .the Committee earlier in the evening that a protectiOn of the rights of the House, and he intended doing so, and he asked the hon. nhould nd be set aside. member for Merthyr not to proceed with an amendment on similar lines. \Vhen the Mr. HARDACRE (Lciclllwrdt) : This ques­ time came. for him to move the amendment tion has been discussed so much that I <.!o not he moved the deletion from line 27, subclaus~ inten<.! to say much on it~ I will endeavour (7). page 6, of the words " for the purposes of to put the matter as it appears to me as this Act," and he then proposed, on line 41, ~uccinc~l;v as poss!ble. The House, in giving after the word '' Act," to insert the follow­ 1ts dec1s1on on tlus matter, 6hould rise above ing amendruent :- all party feeling. This is a matter of the " In this subfection the term 'sugar­ Standing Order~·'· We should leave out alto­ works ' includes, not only a sugar-works gether the question of the ju,tice of the to which this Act applies~ but also any amendment. \Ve should alw leave out the sugar-works constructed and worked or quc,tion as to whether it is advi,;:>blc, an<.! proposed to be constructed and worked merely deal with it as purely as a matter by any company, or person, or body of as to whether it is within our proper juris­ persons other than under this Act." diction in the Standing Orders to nt that has been put in the I contend, therefore, that the amendment Bill. We should discharge from our min<.!s submitted by the Treasurer hims<>lf is the any thought of your r<=>vio\ving the ruling best possible evidence that he was departing of the Chairman. That has not be•Bn done. from the principle which was adopted on \Vhat wa, done was the proposal to pass the the second reading of the Bill. He was third r(•ading of the Bill. The House then also departing from the instructions given suddenly discover<>d something in the Bill when the order of leave was first submitted. which was improperly there. It was right to I contend that this House should most raiee the point at that particular time. In­ jealously guard everything done in Com­ stead of proceeding with the third reading, mittee- I contend that you have a perfect the hon. m<:>mber for Chillagoe moved that right, as Speaker, having supreme authority the third rN>ding be le the corpora­ sons other than under this Act. That is a tion to buy land for the reqmrements of any mutter which reallv was not in the ori"inal private comnany or body of persons at the purposes of this Bill, and it w a, introt!"'uced 'Xj'en,;e of the ::ltate. in Committee when the House wr:1t into Lieut.-Colonel R. Committee to further consider the Bill. Let amendrnent. me tn· and make that point clear. A·sum,• that the Treasurer was authorised in a mea­ ::\Ir. H..i.RDACRE: I think the Treasurer sure brought before this Eou•.: to establish ought to withdraw the motion, and try to a State mining works, and it was necessary do what he ''ants to do in a proper way. to buy copper works fcom, ~ay, [5 p.m.] the Mount Perry Copper mine,. ::\Ir. IIA::\1ILTON (GrcgorJi): I have lis­ \Ve propo'e to give the Treasurer tened to the authorities which ha' e been the power to do that, and at some future quoted, and I do not intend to quote any myself. I think. if we go by the authorities Mage of the Bill we introduce a proposal I to enable the corporation to buv, not for -and am locking at the matter from an impartial standpoint-the weight of autho­ the co-operative mining works b'iit for the rity is in fav01.r of the poBition the Speake1 Mount Perry works, property for its own has taken up. The House should look at me. If there is power to do that, whether this matter seriously, as there is no doubt it is in the intere~ts of the co-operative that this will be a precedent which will be works or not, would it nut be doing more brought up on future occa.,ions. It is twenty. than what was within the scope of the Bill one or h~ enty-two years l'5i!1f'D the Speaker's wlwn it was considered on the second read­ ruling was quc;tioned by a Minister, and we ing? It ."·auld be an entirely new

to people living in Queensland, and the other I do not know where we shall be if ""e are day we gave them to people living out of goin~; to allow party feeling to upset a sound

QuePnsland. If we arc wrono-0 in the ono ruling. If your ruling is disagreed with, case, wo are \\Tong in the othcr. You have then I claim that I shall have a right to a 1wrfec~ ri;;ht, ::Ylr. Speaker, to gh·e your introduce anything in Uommittec, whether opmw" m thi.·, House, but I think that in it is foreign to tho Bill or not, for this this case you made a iniste.ke. I remember amendment is .as foreign to the Uo-opcrative a celebrated Speak,er who one evening gave Sugar Works Bill ae night is to day. I a docioion in mv favour when I raised a ho)HJ that we shall not make the House point of order, ~nd the next afternoon he ridiculous by agreeing to this motior>, but gave it against mP. Of com·•e, 1 contend that members on both sides will be fair­ he A as right in the first place, and wrong in minded enough to allow their own good tho cecond place. (Laughter.) The most sense to guide them when the division comes. celebrated men make mistakes, and in this case I think von have made a mistake. \Ye Lieut.-Colonel R.\KKIN (!Jmrum): It is an are not in 'any way interfering with the extremely disagreeable duty at any time to principles of the Bill when WP givu running dil5agree with the ruling of the Speaker, and rights to two people instead of orw. I am it is purely on that account that I rise to astunic hed s inserte·d· in tho Elections Bill, amongst those bei;,g to provide for the then he has no case in -arguing against the acquirement of running rights over certain amendment in this Bill. I am very sorry tramways, the acquirement of certain pro­ perties, and the acquirement of certain ~e­ to have to vote against your ruling, 1ir. Speaker. I have not done so often; I think sumptions. \Ve found that, in order to enable us to do these things, it was desirable I have done so before, but I have done it that we should give in exchange similar with regret. I know that in your own mind righb to other persons, and that is fair and you are impartial and trv to do what is ju-t, and in no sense a departure from the right, but I must have I~Y o;Jinion of the principle of the Bill. The hon. member for ma~ter, apart from any authorities, and I Leichhardt raised the point that, in ag~eeing believe that the amendment does not in any to the amendment, we should be incurring way infringe on the order of leave. an expenditure not provided for in the Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell): I am not going me,sage from the Governor. The han. mem­ to quote any authority. I think vou made it ber is entirely wrong in that contention, be­ perfectly cleYiew anything expenditure- that, in hi"i opinion, i8 \Vron;:::. 0PPOSITIO~ ME~!BERS : Hear, hear ! The SPEAKER : Order ! I suggest to the hon. member that ·h8 should not discus•, that Th<' SPEAKER: That ha" bern the ac­ phase of t'-le question. cE'pted practice eyer since the office of Snf'akC"r has bcC'n iu cxistcnC'r-. It is true Mr. P .\. YNE : Very well. I challenge the tl;at when the question was fir.+t raisPd as Treasurer or any member on the Govern­ coming from the CommitteP, I refused to ment side of tho House to show that the review the Chairman's ruling, and I will granting of running rights over tramways at all times refu:

to PVPr~- hon. nwmbor of the House pre­ At 5.28 p.m .. S<'nt at the time. It is part of the Tlw DEPuTY bPEAKER relieved the Speaker dnty cf the 8:pealu~r to givC' information to in thP chair. han. membPrs if the'· approach him. and thP han. member for Chillagoe discuss0d this mattPr with me. That i" the reason, as thP THIRD READIKG. Chi·•£ Secrd.ary has f"Jid, why I was prepared with my ruling. \Yith r~'gard to the other The TREASL.:RER: I beg to move that n1atter--th:,t, having rny ruling ready, I the Bill be now read a third timr. should have giv011 it immediat••ly-that is Question put and pa~sed. true; but, out of cour:'-,.• .. v to the Houso- 1vhich is ~·:Jomcthing· 'vhich tho Speak\ r is ·certainlv not to be blam(':l for-I ask<'d han. TITLE. mc:n1l-::e1:3 to 1~·iye their cp;nionfl c··.1 the point The TREAS'CilER: I beg to moye that rai•c'cl. After d<·bate had tfLken place. my the titie of the Bill be- opinion '\V .. ts unalh-'red, and I f-tanding the ruling of the Speaker, and in viL~w of the The SPEAKER: Order! [5.30 p.m.] fact that the amendment has Mr. MACROSS.IX: I called your atten- a diotinct object, and confers tion in time. righb upon private companies as distinct from C'o-opPrativo !"Ugar-works, I thinK the titlP Th<: SPEAKER: Ord<'r l The SJ.>eaker h_as of the Bill should be arnend,:,d. The Bill the np:ht. when a debate on a motiOn to drs­ should bear upon it the title of what it se!lt from his ruling has exc<'< 'led sixty reallv is. It is a Bill which, ne doubt, deals mmute,, to put tho Qlll"'ti"n. The debate with· the establishment of co-operative sugar­ no':'.~ hr,.;; 0~'>('Upied oL:P hun1 and forty-fiye war'.;,: but it also d!'alg with the conferring miJJc.lt<'C·. and I think that the mattu has b0ou nf rip·hts and pO\VCl'"•, and. I rnay bay, privi­ "uffie:iently deb:ctod. lec;c·, on proprietary mill,--mainly, I mp­ 1Ir. ldACROSR\K: You gave no intima­ pc·<,H'. on thP Go1onial Suq-ar Refining Com~ tion to that effect. pany, because it wa8 at the jnstanc" of that companv and some other pnvate rmllowners The SPEJ,KER: The fact d '"" nsmg is that cc1.m d appeared at the bar of the omfiicic:nt intimation that I do not propose House and urged that an amendnwnt "hould to allow t:,c debate tc- be continued. be mnde on the lines of the amenPI', R. H. Mr. :'teven~ There is no doubt that, beyond the question , Co!'sPr. E. B. C. .., nYne of allnwing the e,-tablishment of co-operative Cril h To hili' millF it dnes confer certain rights. The lknhr11n ,. Trout Trt-'t·~,ur0r. in arg-uing on the point of order, ., Dong~us , "~hite Grant , \Yilliams referred to Standing Order No. 257, which Gum1 is as follows :- Telle~s: Mr. Bell and Mr. B. H. Corser. " Anv amendment mav be madE> to a clause oc' other part of a Bill. provided NoEs, 23. that the anwndment is rPleYant to the !Jfr. Barber 2\!r. I,and subject-matter of the Bill, or pursuant to Bertram Larcom be an instruction, and is otherwise in con­ , Bnwnutn ,, L(•nnon formitv with the Standing Rules and ,. Fih!'lly " :May , Fn!,'y , :Ji c -~·onnack Orders" of the House; but, if an amend­ ,. Gilday .. )lurphy nwnt is agreed to which is not within the , Gillirc« 0' ~111livan title of the Bill, the Committee shall ,. Hamilton amend the title accordingly, and report , Rardncre " ~~-~~'~ the amendment specially to the House.. , Hunte-r ,, Thr>odorP ., Huxbam , \V instanlry The Committee did not do that, and I think, , Kin-van therefore. it is the dutv of the House to make Tellers: :7\fr. Huxham and )fr. Kirwan. that alteration in the title. I have no dbubt PATHS. whatever that the Treasurer desires to con­ \yrs--}fr. Kr13sell and )fr. Grrwscn. v~v to the primary producers--the sugar­ -~,_... <>:~-}Ir. ~\dnmlWn nnd Jir. C0ynL~. grow!'rs-that this Bill is something which is onlv intended to affect them, whereas in Ilc'·Dh·cd in tho aflirmative. reality it contains powers, and very wide [Han. W. D. Armstrong. Oo-?perative Sugar [:27 NovE~rBER.] Tr arks Bill. 2269: powers, whjch will enable him, under cer­ and it was therefore only fuir that this right tain circumstances, to allow compulson right should be conferred on those companies. The of purchase to the Colonial Sugar Refining amendment having been made, the title of Company and other private millowners. the Bill should be altered so that it will give a true description of the contents of tha Bill. ::\lr. THEODORE: I think the title of tho Bill ought to be amended, and it should not Mr. GILLIES (Eacham): To allow the Bill be nc<·essar0 to ha \"e any argument on the to go through with the present title would matter. It is sueh an obviously necessary be very confusing. To go back to the genesis amendment that there should be no necessity of the Bill, His Excellency, in his opening to debate it. The title should be descriptive speech on 7th July last, said- of the content.J of tho Bill DilL would cbj:'Ct of the Bill, I take it, was to give know as ''oon as th<'v rr-aw the am<>nded title th<· farmers an opportunity of establishing that this i1; the Bill they are scar<>hing their own mills, and to enable them to for. Thrre is no rl'as'm why the amendment compete on favourable conditions with private should nut be aect·pted anll allowed to pass, enterprise. The insertion of the amendm0nt. and the Treasurer hims<>lf should have mov<>d plltting proprietary companies on the same in that dirc'ction. As " mattPr of flld, the footing &fl: co-operrrtors, is just on a par Standing Orders provide a more PxpNlitious with paf•sin:; a bw to deal with bushrangers, ,s_~ay of gPtting th0 title aP10ndt d, b:-·~:ause and, after providinc: that the police should they p1·ovide that when any amendment' are be armed with a CL'rtain kind of revolver,

in>orttld in a BiE \vhich ar:' nut \!o. d )y.. T inserting a provi<,:on that buchmngers should the title, the title· sLould be forth.,sitl' be armed with the su.me kind of "ea pons. amended, and the Ch,cirma:t of Com:nitte~s, The olfct"t of the am,'ndment \Yill be to give when he makE's his report to the Hou>e. proprietary companies tho same running :-:,hvulJ :::.:t-J"-~e~fie._tll~- 1.\..:'p<.H'l tl1~ anielHhncEt t') rir;hts ov<>r the land of the farmers tl:ttt the the title. SedE:{ that that Wdf.. nG~ rLJi:(, farmers themsc·lves have. If the Treasurer no\v iti the opportunit~· of an1' :1ding the tit1L~. has got over the shock he got in connection Thor<' is no qu<•,;tion but that the rnatt<>r "ith the Speaker's ruling, I hope he will contained in the Qll1t_'Hdnumt render~ it agree to the su~Ygeslion that the title .of the nof';'-;sa.rv for th0 title to b~J broadene:l so Bill should be altered, co that, when It goes as to ir1clud0 the Pe\\ principk in a brief to the other House, the members will have stat<>ment. In ord0r that the Bill will go an opportunity of se<.>ing at a glance what to another place properiy de'<·cribed, and so kind of a Bill they have to deal with. So that hon. nH~mber5 in another plrL('f' '·'-·ill, far as tho farmers are concerned, l:he Bill by glanci:1g- at the title, und<'r-tand the might very well be thrown into the waste­ <'ontents of th<· Bill. I think thP t.itJe '·hould paper baf'ket. I a1n ;;.:ti•-,'lC'd that i~. ,,"in be be amc-ncl<:d, oth1_?rwi:;;e it is a deliberate at­ -of no use whatever to fanners who "'Want to tempt on the part of the Trea,,urPr to de­ start a mill of their o\vn. ceive han. memb<-r-; in another pl~c<>, 11r. L \RCO:'IIBE: It is eaoilv :,cen that Mr. LENNON: I think it is very desirable tbfl' rJ.lreJ.surer is ngain in th;,r;~~·> o"f tlw 1-!0liS':, that the amendment should be accepted. because the leader of the Gov.,rnmcnt hac; \Ve have not had any word from the Trea­ !>ot done th(' le:•der of the O:::•J-.ition thn surer on the matter; I do not know whether court:·~y of rising and intin1 1.ti:1g wh~?>i-hc·r he is cogitating on it or not, but we should ; ,e intonds to accept thr amenclm0·"t or not. be very glad to he;tr what he has to say Of U)Ur~r·, \,Ve can anticipate whnt th:-- reply· on the matter. It would really be very of the Tre:,,nrer v:ould have been. but the; confusing to a large num her of people if leader of the Opposition miFht ha>. be<•n the Bill were allowed to pass with its present shown the ordinary cnurtc,,,. that is at all title, which is not truly representative of times exhibited to our leadrr by the Premim· what it intends to do. For example, I know when he is in charge of the business. 'l'he districts where alreadv there are central mills amendment is amply juBtified, and tho Stand­ and proprietary mills,' and where it is possible inr; Orders contemplate such an amcndinC'nt that a mill might be erected under this Bill, when new matter is introduced into a Bill, and it is onlv right that those people should so thot the title of a Bill mav be brought be made aware of the fact that these rights into consonance with its contents. It has have been conferred upon them. The argu· been dearly shown that this n0w principle ment in favour of the amendment was that go<'s much further than ie necessarv to carry without it, it would be tantamount to con· out the objects of the ":Rill. It" has been fiseation of the property of the proprietary clearlv shown that it will enable the Trca· companies on the part of the corporation, surer· to confer certain rights on proprietary Mr. Larcombe.] '2270 Co-operative AgricaUuml [ASSE::\IBLY.] Production Bill.

<·ompanie·'-·companie, that are not brought during the term of it' existence it did a within the four corners of the Bill, other great amount of good. Altogether, the sum than in the way indicated in clause 7--in of £116,000 was advanced for co-operative ·a way that was not contemplated in the works under that Act. 'l'o that Act can be order of leave or by hon. members when they attributed the establishment of the present passed the second reading. Seeing that the meatworks throughout Queensland and the Bill is now e,.sentially diffPrent to what it present dairy works. \Ve know that the was when it passed its s~cond reading, the exportation of the primary products from amendment that has been moved by the Queensland has enormow-ly increased owing le:1der of the Opposition is amply justtfi<>cl. to the good work done under the provisions The TREASDREP.: So that I may not of that Act. That has justified us in going be regarded as ab•olutely discourteous, may further. \Ve have also made grants in aid I say now, in the briBfest pc,;sible way, that of co-operative production every year, until there is no intention on the part of the altogether £16,000 were advanced. Every Government to accept the amendment. penny of that sum is intact at the presFnt time. The payments of principal and in­ terest have all been met, with tho exception Question-That the words proposed to be of about £7 9s. 1d. That is the total amount added (1lfr. Ryan's amuulmcnt) be so added­ due at the prcoent time. The advances made put; and the House divided:- in that way enabled butter and cheese fae­ torie~ to be established throughout Queens­ AYES, 20. land. \Ve know that there has been a great :Mr. Barbpr ::Ur. Kir~van development in the manufacture of butter llertr~m Larcombe , Bowman Lennon and cheese. It does not need a great deal , Fihelly , ~lay of money to start these factories. It only ~' Foley ~· 1\IcCormack requires £3,000 to start a butter factory and , :llurphy produce 4 tons of butter a week, and £1,100 ... gnri~; Pavne will start a cheese factory. A great deal Hardacre RyUn can be done under this Bill by advancing Hunter Theodore Huxham ., Winstanley £1 for £1 to people in the back parts who wished to co-operate and have factories of Telr·rs: }fr. Barher and :11r. ~Iurphy. their own. \Vhen a community can get 500 NOES, 30. gallons of milk a day, it justifies them in i!Ir. Allan 1Ir. Hodge stn.rting a checbe factory. There has been , Appel Luk~' a great improvement in the manufacture of , ..:\rcher , )facartney cheese, and the pas sing of this Bill will , BarnC's, G. r. ,, J1ac-n,.:3:--.tn enable many co-operative companies to be .:\1-' r':·.tn H Barn( (\, "'. H. forrnud in connection with that industry and , Behbington ,. Pagt~t , Bell I'Ptl"lP the manufactUJ,;e of other agricultural pro­ ,, Bridgcs ., Philp ducts as well. Since this Bill has been CmnP I.ieut.-Cul. 11ankin. introduced, we have had an application from , Corser, B. H. 3!r. :-:teVt'llS ="orth Que8nciland, asking that money may Corser, E. B. C. :-''i-\aVU(' be ath-,.lnced to co-operators who wish to Cribb ,. Tolnlit> D,•nham ., Trout manufacture fibre from the fibre plant, and Douglas , "\Vhite we have also had applications in other Gunn . , \Yilliam." directions. I am in hopes that the Agri­ Tellers: Mr. Douglas and :llr. Morgan. cultural Department will do good work under the provisions of this Bill, which are PAIRS. outlined in clauses 3, 5, and 7. No advances \y0s-11r. ~\damson and :Mr. CoynP. will be made to any company ~O"'J-::tr. Kt_ ~sell and :Mr. Gra:, son. [7 p.m.] unless the majority of the share- R<>solved in the nei;;ative. holders are primary producers of the primary product connected with that Original question-Title-put and passed. factory. That will make it co-operative as far as it is possible to make it. Clause 3 The Bill was ordered to be transmitted to provides that the majority of the share­ the Legi'age in the holders must be persons who are pJ:oducers usual form. of primary products, and there is another portion of the same clause which states that- CO-OPERATIVE AGRICULTURAL " It shall not be competent for the GOmpany at any time to alter the fore­ PRODUCTION BILL. going provisions of such articles." SECOND READING. That is, the articles provide that at least The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: a majority of the shareh')ldcrs shall be per­ As there was a considerable amount· of dis­ sons who are producers c,£ primary products. eussion on the introductory stages of this It may be Cccid that the principle of the Bill, I hardly feel justified in taking up the Bill is to prevent "dry" ohareholdcrs. I have time of the House to any great extent in just had a list pr0parcd of the whole of the moving the second reading. As a matter advances that have been made from loans in of fact, there is no new principle involved aid of co-oper,1tive companies already in in this co-operative Bill. The forerunner of existence, and I find that two-thirds of the this Bill was the Meat and Dairy Produce shareholders are "wet" shareholders and one­ Act, whioh was introduced by Sir Thomas third are " drv" shareholders. The reason for Mcilwraith, and the amount of good work " dry " shareholders. and for the provision done by that Act justifies us in carrying on h.>ing put into the Bill, was that, in many the good work under another Act. One of cases, in the outlying di,tricts, people who the provisions of the Meat and Dairy Pro­ wanted to erect ch-eese or butter factories duce Act w-as that all moneys advanced had not much monev of their own, and, should be returned to the original taxpayers. perhaps, the hotelkeeper, the storekeeper, That Act became inoperative in 1910, but and others. would put a certain amount into [Mr. Larcombe. Co-operative Agricultural [27 NoVE)IBEn.] Production Bill. 2271 the concern, not with the idea of reaping panics. ;>s thev g<'t quick returns for their any direct benefit, but to assiFt the farmers producb. I k!rm;· a eompany, which, a few to get a factory of their own. It was, there­ years ago, started with a very littk capital; fore, considered verv desirable to incor­ they had no advance from the leans in aid, porate thi" provision" in the BilL The fact but thev got a ,~ertain nmount from the bank, that the dividends cannot excee:l 4 per and v:erc able to pay it off and finance cent. for tho first sixteen vears offers no themselves almost without any capital at all. induc<>ment to the "drv" sh>nehr,)der', who Very litt~e money was invested by them m would also know that- they were going in the businebs; they got the plant from "' under conditions in which the primary pro­ firm on terms, got an advance from the bank, ducers could pretty well do a' they liked. and tho fact that the,· were able to put The further clauses of the Bill we need not their butter on the nrarket almost every discuss to any m;:tE'nt. The J\linister, before we<'k, and get paid for it, enabled them to advancing the monev, for the protection of carrv on at a minimum of cost and a mini­ the taxpayer, must "have a report showing muni of risk. ~l.ll the other clause., in the evervthing' connected with the mill, and the Bill are pr.10tically machinery clan "l'S, dPal­ valuers appointed shall mnke inquiries into ing with the allowance of credit for ad­ the merit'- of the appliration, and report upon vances, rcm£>dies of the Crown, and tho the nature and objech of the company and power to take land. Claus<' 12 provid<•s that the capital proposed to be invested, also the ::\Iinistcr, on behalf of the c;:n>1pany- upon the site, tho cost of the works, and the " ~hall have power fron1 tinH: to time to securities offered. take. purchase, contract for the use of, • At 7.5 p.m., or otherwi•e nwvide anv land which mav be r--quired for tho woi·k-, or any tr·am­ illr. BERTRAM called attention to the vvay," state of the House. and that, in cstimatieg the compensation to Quorum formed. be paid for such land- " no allowance shall be made for any The SECRET.-\RY FOR AGRIUCL'ITRE: increase in the vaiuP of suc·h land bv Clau·-e 5 is important. It provides that all reason of the construction, or pYoposcd advances under the ~let mu:rs of Queenslm_rd the following year. Clause 6 provid0s that at a. time when they most need help-that I>, the a:·nount advanced shall cover thl' cost at the commencement of thc;r operations in of the works, and the advance is not to be outside districb. 'l'he mea.-ure can be put made until one-half of the capital of the into operation quickly, as soon as the pro­ eompany is subscribed by the shareholders. dneer" haYe ·--ubscribcd £1 for £1, and it Claus'' 7 is also an important clause. It will enable them to get th('ir prim~ry pro­ provides that advances rna:;- be made for ducts manufactured and to get the full vulue works alreadv in Pxi...tence. There are some for t ho~e produc·ts in the markPts of the works in cxi\tence which are practicaJly of world. I sinc0rely hope that it will do for nu use, and unless some pr::>vision of this the primary: producers all that I expect it kind was made, it might be posoible to load to do, and I am quite certain that- the pri­ them upon the ::\Iini·,ter or others, but the Inary pro<.lucer,~ v;:il! 'velcon1e the tnea~ure, as provision that all advanc<''' on mills already nnt only will it hPlp th~m. but it will aho in exic,tC'rlCC must be ,ubmittcd to both Hou,es heir, Queensland. I hope• that it will do as of Parliam<>nt, is ample provision ·to protect much for Queen,.hnd as the :ti•'at and Dairy the taxpayc". Clause 8 gives S•"Curity for Produce Encouragement Act ha·J ,Jone for .advances in the forrn of a mortgage oyer the the State. That Act was the mcar:J of creat­ whole of the company's work-, The rate of ing one of the largest industries in Queens­ interest is al'o provided, and the loan is land-the mc,1t indu.-·trv and the butter in­ for a term of sixteen years. Fourteen year.s dustrv. To-dav there ·are something like is the ordinary period of the loan, but it is 4,000 cases of cheese ~~oing from tlw manufac­ conoidercd advisable to give the company turNs to London. "·Iiieh is a splcndjd thing at least two scars without any repayment for Qneen.\land. The }fc~t and Datry Pro­ Df principal, so RS to get into a good finan­ duce Enroura;rement Act, and loan~ in aid cial position before the repayments com­ of factorir--,, ho.ve done a lot of good; but mence. After that the payments will be at I think this measure will do more good the rate of £9 9s. 4d. per annum, which still, and I have much pleasure in moving will cover the interest and redemption in th:1t it be read a second time. the fourtc.-·n years. The repayment of ad­ vances is also provided for, and the company <· Mr. GILLIES (Eacham): I thon!l'ht that ean at anv time repay portion or the the deputy leader of the farmers' party was whole of t:fre amount if they arc in a posi­ going to rise and givu this propo.,al his tion to do so. They might be able to make benediction. I welcome anything that will better arrangements with some other lender, extend the co-operative principl8 and assist or be so succp,.·gful a; to be able to repay the primary producer. The very fact that the whole amount within a limited period. the Chamber of Manufadures has cri-vicised Clause 10 provides for a half-yearly statement this measure shows that it has possibilities. -of arrears to be published. The. repayments At th<> i-amc time, I regr0t that tho Minister and interest are a first charge on the profits did not accept the amendment moved at an of the company. Yearly statement·, must earlier stage bv this side of the Hou'e, and be published in the "Gazette," in August make provision in the Bill for the marketing each year, w that the Houoe will be able of produce. to see exadly what the position is. Under Mr. BEBBINGTOK: \Ve don't need it. the present loans in aid, out of .£16,000 ad­ vanced, there is only £7 9s. in arrears, and Mr. GILLIES: The hon. member prefers hon. members would und<>rstand the care to allow the farmers to pay £40,000 a year taken in making these advances. It costs in commission for marketing their products very little to finance cheese and butter com- t-o making ~uch provision as would lead to MT. Gillies.] 2272 Co-op< rative Agricultural [ASSE:.\IBLY.] PToduction Bill.

that money being distributetl among tlw anotiwr modification of the provisions of the­ farmer,'>. 1·he que.3tion of n1arkcting pro­ Dill. The Secretary for Agriculture knows­ duct,::, :i\~ a HlO'''t irr'-portant one for farn1er~, that ,v]wn a co-opecative butter factory or but as it does not c'ome within the scope of cheese factory company is formed, it is the­ thi:, .Bill 1 am not at liberty tu discus, the usual thing to pay up 2'l. on application for matt<>r. However, I think it is possible to >hares, 2;;. on allotment, and 6d. or ls. per introduce in Uon1n1ittce an1end1n'-~nts whid1 n1onth afterward,. wili rnake ihi::; rneasuro of some use to The SECRET.mY FOR AGRICL:LTcRE : I think farmers. The advance of £1 for £1-that the dwlo amount should be paid up when is, ha!f the cmt of a iactory-is not sufficient to enable farmers and sel(•,'tors in new dis­ the factory is fmished. tricts to e•.tablish a factorv, because an ordinary factory co,;ts from £2,000 to £4.0GfJ. :Yir_ GILLIES: That is so, but the ::VIinis­ A humfrc 1 farmPrs starting with only --uffi­ ter provides that not less than ha1f ehould cient mor,ey to pay the depo -its on their be paid up before th" advance is made. I selections and the ~hire council rates, and do not think that t!Llt is a roasonabie thing. to buy rution5 for bV(']ve n1onths, are not I think that when people have shown their in a pvition to provide £2.0GO for a fac­ uona !ides by taking a number of shurcs and tory; and I regret that the :\Iiuister has payir:g up tho application . and allotl!l~nt not thought fit to make the advanc•3 15s. fpe"'---..,aY, 5:5. a ,share-that IS a propo:ntion in the £1. rrood t~n'ouo·h to warrant the 'Trca·,urer conl­ l\Ir. 2'11oRG.1};': This Bill giv<>s £1 {or £1. ~lg: alo11g ~ud rnaking inqairi(1S, and if after 1ullkino- 111quiries he i-t t:.::ttistied, n1aking ad­ I\h. G-ILLIES: That is half the e,A, or vances~ so that thcv may ,tart to erect ·cheir lOs. in the £1, and my "uggl ,tion ic that the factorY. I think that it is rather P.rbitrary GoYernrnent >hould adYanef:-' 15s. in the £1- to provicl0 that half the money snould be that is, if a faccory costs £l,OCO, that they paid up 1)eforv an:,T a:dvance is 1nade:. an-d I f::hould ad \Tance £750, and so on. I agree run quite sure it 'v1V not '"'f?'l'( c. 1Yldt the 'vith thP :.\Iini-ter that in starting a fndorv YiPY; :~ of the a vcrc.ge fanner ")'t.artlng on the in a new cH;:;trirt it is necessarv to g·L·t t.liC land. It ',;·oulc\ be rather a lengthy bmir:, ,:s assi,tan('(' of ·· drv'' :-:harc·holder-~ such a·. t:lC to \vait until bali the capital ha" lwen paid ston::.. ;:-eepcr ond like- pl·r~on~, i:d th<_\ d:_:;trict up on the U>'Ua.l principle \Y~li~h I h':;·(: Inen­ where thu fuctory is to b~~ e•-tctbli· hcd, but t:c.ned. I hop'~' that tbe ::.\llnl;"h.T wul agr~ e l submit _that the propo,,a] should be hedged to H'ake the~ Bill n1or~-, libe1·al '\\ ith reg:trd n)UIH1 \Vlth nl~i:.f safeguard.-,. advaEr·c·'i. I have .already rc:J.i-d that the The bECRET.m 1 1- OR .-\G RICcLTuRE : It is. , .t.te 111achiner~T cornpanies in tl~is cit:· a;re ln'L' ;,_tr-ed to do for ~he s.elec!:'o:s 111 rny •dl~­ 1\h. GILLIES: I am not snrc whl'ther it trict bc.ror than tin; B1ll proposes to do. is -.uffi~ientJ,\T snfeg·uankd in the Bill. There 'The's a:n.~ l)H'l)Ured to put in tbe n1achincry i" quite a nu1nber of R:ore~rC'C'1Jers ":.,\ ho are ~tralghtuw'a~ 'antl ~.sait yr.actically two yu.t,rs 1Jrepa~>".! to put thc•ir lll0ll8V into factoric::, ....;t .. _.o: e repa.V..tllCnL starts. Clause 9 of tnc ill ·:>n use thP:y reccgnise that~ their esta:jlish~ Biil provicl~s th"t the terJ_n of repayliicont illOllt i_, gui11g i~) HHtfiC 1he di~. L'ict and uut o: the 1\! lvanuy, should be sixtc:.:n ::ear ''1 and mo:1thly cheqn' •, into 'ircnLtt :on, so that t1wt the money should be fr?o oi interest altho~w;h the storckec:wr 1ni~~ht ,, put his £5 fm· the fir't two vcars. I thmk that tPrm or £10 ~~It?, thr; co~lC{?l'.J?· h~~ doc;:; nut <'XlH. r.t rni o-ht vcrv well be PXtPnrled, to bring it inw to ~;ct -~lVl ·-'uL.; du·c·~·t..y, nut nt·~y actua1I:~; lin~, say, '"'with tho Agricultural ~n:ak, ,vhich gain ~1H·rc the.n thp ffir1ner gain~" I think allo\Ys a tPnn of ropayrncnt o.:: t:\vent~,·~flve that thi~ JHO\·ision should hP hedt~cd round vaars interr'·,t onlv for the first fi vc years. with sa£0guards so that the men enpplying 'fho,~ who know anything about the pioneer­ the fa<"l'ory will ah' ays haye the pr<>pon-llor­ ing in the fanning district_:.;; of Qucel.J. ..,land anco. I think that provi cion should it! so b,, kwnv that tho first four or hve ypa.rs are t~e n1ado in this connection for the limit~tt·ion lwrclest ]n the ~elector'.,; ex11{~rience, and 1f of votes. I do not sav that the number lw o"ets a littk bit oi' aesi,tancc during thoso should be limited to on;', bnt I think that years he l'·il! be able to come alo:1g and no 'b'tr<>holder should i1ave :nore than three. n•PGt his oblig-ation". -so that I thmk the I sugg·L~ that the man tuking np shares :1t £1 }Iiuie•:-r will bn well advised to alter the­ and havml!' from 5 to 49 ehould haYe one vote. claus<.' in that direction. 'Ihere have been of some u'e in nothing to prevent any co-ojwrativ<: co'!'~ the pc,st, I think the time has come when the pimy that gets assistance undPr th:s Brll farmer shouJ.d, as he can, control all these from marketing their own produce If they industries. J think the farnwr should get think fit· but in manv cases it is found that· all the profits out of the industries. I it pavs better to pav ·a. small commission on remember vvhen the Byron Bay butter fac­ a, lar.ge output to get their produce placed tory start,-d, the lurgo·--t butter factor:::· in on the market. Wh<>ther the~· pay 2~. per the world, and there were proprietary con­ cc•nt. commi~sion to an individual or firm to pla1 o th0ir produce on the market, or cerns in the district. we wer-~ told that the farmers ohou!d stav a.t home and remain on whdher it costs 2~. per cent. o;· 3 per cent. their farms; that ·they !me" nothing about to run thdr ovn1 Rtorcs, n1akc-.s no difference to the farmerF. Whil0 it has been stated machiwr:· Oi' about the running of factoric .. ; that tlv ; Bhould wo,·k their farms, milk thc­ bv the han. nwmbcr who has just remmed covrs. :::,Pilarate the eroarn, and :.;cnrl it along his 6cat that £40,000 a year is lost to the f&nnc>rs in EJ.arket.1n;; their produ:->t' in to the proprictar;. factorie·-:. But there wc;e Qu, ens! and, }'('• thP han. mc'TibPr must agree there a fe., m<'n. who Lad be:'n CfJ!W<'Z<'d m 'vith n1e that th:: farn1ers are getting good the nact b•; the ('olonia.l Sno;ar Rdining- Com­ value for the vrork done. and thP money pan~· and o:hcr compan'·•'S, lonc>;-]waded which has been spent has given employment eno{,gh to know better, and they said that to men en"agcd in that busines .. , Under thP:v \Ycre not going to b0 placed in the same ordinarv circu•nstances the formers might position in r('gal'd to .dair~ving .a"' in rf'gar:d find that it w.mld cost them £60,000 a year to prnducing :.;uga':"-cane. and the r£'sult _Is to g•t th:• r,amc amount of work done for that th~Y ha,-p the lnrr:c·et butter fa-ctory m which they now paY £40.000 y<>ar. Hon. (~xlstnp('(;, \\+th :"' 1 ;_,:lth1}- !-•'1\' of ;~arn.ooo. flnrl mcillbcro opposite have he,-] no PX)Wrience afte,. that f:·dorv was .f.·ntrd other co-oncra­ in th(lse n1Rl \C'l'3, ttnd vrhPn they end0avoured tive factorit' '.prun~; un all ov0r tiK· di•tri: t. to fr~t the :-cop8 cf the Bill "ide1Icd. I ad­ To-daY ther~ arc score'' of hctori(-, in th:1t Yised them to "a it till the Bill was tabled. district, and tho,<> factories have made the Now the Bill is tabled, we find if any co­ fnrrnl'r:;. Thev nHL!P1faC'ture b oC'on thf'r~e opcrativf' 1 o1npany dP,~>tn_\s to Inarkr< their also, and slau~ht.:r a larg-r> nu1nbPr nf })i[{s produc0, t-he'· ma: do w. Had the scope every s·c~r. The nos·ibilities ~.re still very of th0 Bill bPen widened, as hon. m• ·11b, rs great in thi·, State ~' far a': cv-opNative onposit<> wiohr-d, wcJ would hove found. per~ enterprise is ('oncc:rned, a~ ~~·ell hftps. h::If ,; d_ozt,n n1en \Yantin,g to Ptart a. [7.30 p.m.l as in the marlwting- of farm butcher's shop in Brisbane coming- along ~ product·. 'I'hc farmr>rs should and claiming a·'· .. i,.tance under this Dill. be­ not onlv ha.-e th,- nrofitg out of mlnnfac­ c·-\-::,use theY we~·e 1narketing- primary pro­ turing bnt'cr and h1eon, and so on, but ducts; ''"e vvould find n1en coming along and thcv should have the profito that at the getting assistance to start all sorts of pre~cnt time !'rD into the pockets of tlw business. middle•nen, and that is the weakness of this HilL I eee ,,o rec.son why the ~,finistcr :\Ir. O'SULLIVAN: Which would be quite shoul~l not ::ro a little furthe~ than hr has ju•iificcl. gone and !l'ivf' effect to the wish of ,, gr1 at manv of th" farmers in this State and pro­ :J.Ir- 1IORGAN: Under a Bill of this sort vid,.; in this Bill. for the marketing, as it is not justified, and as far as we are con~ well as the. manufadur<' C:Jld stor" g-c, of <'ernc>d-representing the true farmer as we­ farm produrP. thucc doing away Y\ith the do~wf' haw gone carefully into the Bill middlPmf'n, who claim to have been the and we find ;t meets the wants at the­ pioneers of the indtFtry-rmd it S!·en•,; to me P"""ent moment. Of course, we never know a verv elastir te-rm: while thov mic:ht h ,,.,, what mav occur in years to come. Bills bocn pionc<_\rs. the"' ha'" P. b0en e~p101t€-rs ah.o. brought before this Iclousc to-day· we know Thev haY" done Yon· well out d the farmPrs may need amending after experience has in the naot. and the time has arrived wh<'n been gained, and, if Fo, we can bring about ihP far'nprs should take over the whole busi­ the negcsq,ry alterations. Now, there is nes""·-·thfl rnanufarturing nnd markc-tinp- of anoth0r point touched on in connection with their proclnrc, and I am sorr~· thn Minister thie Bill which I know something asons ,;-hy ho should wail at the rural see it carried on to .a SllCCe'sful icsue. But wDrkers' log. I would not be permitted to these, eventually, must give way to co­ giYe thoFe reasons here, but when I speak operation. As people become more edu­ on the platform about them, my electors c:ated and shipning facilities arc improved alwa:y" agree with me, and, if I talked silly and new markets opened up, businesa rot to men of experi~nce, I wouid soon get ehanges its methods every ten or twenty pulled up. I consider it is my duty always years, and it is po:,sible that, in another to stand up for the farmers. and not aliDw ten or fifte0n y< iLrs, co-Dperation may give them to be accused of being poDr payers. way to something else. \Vhere too great They not only pay good wages, but they facilities nrP offered fo· the establishment f<·ed and home their men well. Men have of butter and cheese factories, there i' a no right to come hero and cast slurs on the danger of too many starting. There may farmers. be two butter factories in a district where there is only f:nough raw material for Dne, ::\1r. GILLIE;,: \Yhy did you leave Victoria? and the profit:< of the farmers are thereby (Laughter.) reduced. You may find two factories with a t:apacity of 80 or 100 tons Df butter a The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! month. and the average output of each may ~'Ir. MORGAN: Why did you leave New be only 30 or 40 tons. You have twD South Wales? (Renewed laughter.) I left manac;ers and two staffs running those two Victoria because I thought I could better factories at ju;,,t about one-half their capacity, myself, and I am very pleased to say that I when, by the employment of -an extra man have done so, and I would not care to go or two, the whole business could be done by back to Victoria again. (H<•ar, hear!) I one factory. Unfortunately, jealousies exist have not been disuppointed in coming here. bdween different t

'bePn introduced thi' sc•ssion or last in the .Dl-+ L',nnot rii'e higher tban that. He <'annat interests of the man on the land. \Ve have g-Pt above borrowing £14. The farmers go in had something ·like half a dozen of such for higher things. \Yc• go in for banking 'Bills. and for bur bringing in thi .• Bill. He frora othPr StatP~ a Ed NO\\" Zcattnd. :::;ince knm·. s th 1t, .. o far ;,, tho m•·z·t ancl dairv "'" have hac! that- ~-l.ct. oYer £1no.000 was te1x is <'~e J:vlanufacturerR' Associa­ Jl:Ir. THEODORE: To provid? factories from tion, and the whole of the cheeae was rwnny--in-slot machines. (Laughter.) manufactured bv the co-operative com­ panif'''· BPtwePn 'the lOth and 11th of everv :Hr. BEBBIKGTOX: The hon. member's rnonth. thp co·uncrati;. P C'Onlpanie:; pay U\'nlY mind cannot rise above coffee->talls and about £2CJ.OOO in en-h. All that reprb-<'llts penny-in-the-slot maehine,. (Laug-i1ter.) The new money "kPn from the soil and brought object of this Bill is to provide a banker for into circulation. The fitun"r docs nd keep the farmer. \Yhcn a rich man want-- an hi·. moue;:. but pnts it into circulation adyance. he can 50 to hi •. , banker at anv aCf'ain. and 'o trad(' geb; th<• beiH•fit of it. timo and g"et half the money. but undc~r thi's Tlwsr- co~opPral_jyp industriP"- cu1ploy a nuin­ Bill we can get more than half. bcr of hands. and tlw !1'enpral public benefits b·, th<> mOJwy that is circulated. I am glad Mr. GI!J.IES: You can got £14. that the J\Iini,tcr has macl0 provision for ::\Ir. BEBBINGTO="': The hon. g-entlPman cold ,;torage in th< Bill. He has paid. a ha' not got £14 worth of brains. c-reat deal of att< ntion to cold st01•;,~·e. and this ""aeon h.· h,-,,, established '·old store., The DEPl.~TY SPEAKER: Ord<'r! I with tl man in charge for the bPnefit of hope hon. members >vill cease from making the sw :.11 factories who would not be able 'uch silly int<'rjections, and allow the han. to keep their cheese this hot weather. If member for Drayton to continue his speech. we get factories established under this Bill. thPv will be able to send the whole Mr. BEBBII\GTOX: We want to giv" the of thPir · manufactured article to the eold same privileges to the poor, struggling man stores. and put a man in charge to look as th<' rich man ha;_. got with his 0\\ n banker. after it. Yi'e lwo.rd thco IC'acler of thP Oppo,i­ Thi,, Bill will help thn poor man to join tion read out the Labour platform the other with othero and got £1 for £1 to estab­ night. where he rderred to the State con­ lish a £acton· where he can market his own trol of market,, God h0lp tlw farmer if produce. What is the position to-dav? We w;, have State control of markPts! \Ye haye havC' our own cr0dit. and we arc all "honest. had pxperiencP. and it g-oes to show that The hon. gC'ntleman who interjected about every time the market price is- fixed. the Mr. Brbbington.] 2276 Go opuati~·c Agricultural [ASSE.i.\lBLY.] Production Bill.

farmer is robbed-absolutelv robbed. (Laur.;h­ for gi ,-ing £1 fm· £1. \Vhat I complain of i>< ter.) There is no getting' away from that that they are not giving more. I do not qnit0 tact. Lc·t n1e g1ve one ur two case::;. \'\ e understand whv the Downs and the W<'stern are told that tho socialist party are the members--I include myself as a representa­ same in everv State. TherE' is a kind of tive of farming inter<:"stR--should be> satisfied machinP they 'arP put through. which brings to take £1 f~r £1 when a Bill has been them all out alike at the finish, so that passed throug-h the Chamb<'r to assist the we can be sure that they are all alike. sugar-growers to the tune of £2 to £1. It (Laughter.) Mr. Fioher said that he had is useless to tPll us that the f11ctorv does not saved £1.000,000 out of sugar. coRt n1uC'h mane:,~. The sugar pl-odurer is [8 p.m.l Certainly, he had, buthehassaved better looked after than any other producer it out of the bonec, of the farmers in Queen,land. It is true his mill costs more who are producing tho sugar. Then. again, monev. but he has more moncv to erect it take wheat. In fixing thr price of wheat, he with.· There is no justification' for the Go­ took it at 5s. for fear it should rise to 5s. vernment giving £2 for £1 in the one· 6d., taking something like £1,500,000 out case and in the other £1 for £1. I do not of the farmers' pockets. That is the kind think this Bill is quite fair in regard to the of control of markets that he will give us. position in clause 3-that only per.wns who That is the State control of markets you are producers may become shareholders. have there. Their sy-;~em of ,control is It simply to advance as much as possible. I :iYir. BEBBIXGTOX: does not say so. know <1 monev-lE'nder-ratiler. he was a stordrecper-ancl when a man ,:..ant~d to pay ::\Ir. HUNTER : The hon. member his bill, the storekeeper would say, "Never evidently has not read tho Bill. 'ro show mind. it do<'s not matter paying it th1s that I am correct, da.use 3 prm-icle";-- month ; I will only char¥,'e you 6d. a month ,, The sharPs of the company shall al­ interest on the balance.'' That is 6*.. in the ways be hPld by persons who are pro­ £1 a vear, or 30 pc>r cent. Those are facts. ducers of the primary produets or some \Vhat 'happened·.· \\-hen he knew the man of them in rcstwct of which the busine' calkd upon him of the co1upany is to be carried on." to reduce his account or lose his farm. That is the kind of thing the socialists want to bring The hon. mc>mbcr for Dravton is accn•tomed in-to let the State get as much as they can. to get up and roll off spccZ·he> wit-hout know­ \Vhen the State ha•< lent more monev on ing what he is talking about. I think the the factorv. it will be easv for them to· take Bill 'hould be amc>ndPcl, lwcau:;e farnEr•< possession' 'and nationalise it. That is the go inco the country fron1 sornc trade or State control of markets; that is what the calling with very little morwy, and are only socialist party are after. As far as the able to put down the rc>nt for the first year; Chamber of :\Iannfaetures are concerned, I they arc> ofwn not in a [)O>'ition to find OIW­ think th0y 1nade a hip; rni,,tahY in interfering fourth of the> monPv wanted to i'tart v. fac" with t.Jw Bill. It is not going to intc>rf,'n' tor\~. I know caseS ·wh('rO had it not been with thc'm in any way: \Ye realise that for~ the '• dry" ~hareholdcrs coming in the rnany priYate con1panies and people had factories would nevPr haw bc>en cstabli,hed. dPne good in leading the way. but this \Yhile I bclie,-e that ".,sistanq~ should be Dill is for the ballefit ef the whole of th<' cb'· ·'nc>r1 from thc•oc' who '"rP will in,: to ~tatP. and the g-r.cDting of thig 1noney ''~~ill lwlp. lll'('Cantions should ])(' tal-cPn thai:. a' increase production. It will always secure a far ns diYid0nd:J are concPrnPd. no 111ore than permanent supply of products for the con­ 4 per t ··nt. '•hould !Jp gin•n. ancl there · houlrl sulners of the State. which is being done now 1-:.zl powc•r gir. f'll at an~,· tin1c to take over in spite of tlw clroubht. There is a splc:1did the interest-; of thr_.. ,,e "' dr---,~ '' shareholders. sur>ply nf gonrl foocl for the people at low There are business rntn of 'different ( nllinr.:s rates. This Bill will encourage prc,Juction­ living in a communitv of that description will bring more capital into the primary in­ who are in·epared to imt tlwir monc:v into­ dustric--ancl be of great benefit to the :mch an ent<'rprise. Evc>n if they got no Stat"'. I am H'ry ph'af<0d to support the intere't on it, they would still be prepared Bill. and I congratulate the I\.Iinister upon to put their monc>y in, because it mca'lfi that ih introduction. thee- arc hl'lping to A'tablish men on the I\.lr. HUKTER ·: I ·mtion ~Ir. BEBB)X"TOX: It sa.ys tho majority among·st pr".Jducers; and. behold. '• the moun­ must be prnnary producers. tain has laboured and brought forth a mou<,.e." \V c find that this is practicallv a re-enact­ :Mr. HU:i'\TER: I say the farmers are not ment of the old meat and dairy board. able to find the majo~ity of the morwy. I It goes no further than this, that the Go­ kno\Y cases in which farmers could not find vernment are going to be so liberal as to one-fourth of the arnount. required. and I give thP primary producers £1 for £1 to­ hold that, as long as provision is made that wards the erection of a factory. the farmers mav at anv time take over the Mr. BEBBI>d for another pur­ vance £2 for £1, as is done in regard to pose. I fi11d no fault with the Government sugar-works. The sugar-grower is a highly [Mr. Bebbington. Co-operative Agricultural (27 NOVEMBER.] Production Bill. 2277

·1avoured man in Queensland. Not onlv is The SECRETAEY FOR AGR!Cl:LTcRE: \Ve are 1w assisted by the Federal Government 'but exporting more than any other State in the lie io al 'o assisted by the State Govern~ent. Commonwealth. ::\Ir. ::\loRG.\X: The Federal Government Mr. IH.i::\TTER: Y"s; but of collrse we .arc robbing him. ·have a very large t<>rritory and good natural grasse., but when our scrub and other lands ::\Ir. ITCNTER: How ca.n any hon. mem­ are laid down with fodder grasses we shall .ber make such a statement when it is known produce ten times more than we an· doing that if it were not for the protective duty at the pr~.~sent ti1ne, and evor;v encourage­ cl with it and 1 hope it ,,·ill be we would export sugar to-morrow if we omen•'c•d in Committee•. \Yhile leg-islating on ~verc permitted to do so. the mbjc-ct, we might go ~ little f~rther, and .show a little nlD:'e liberality to0Yards, and :Ylr. IllTXTER: \Ve know that at the a little wore symp-athy with, the primary _lll'l'SPnt time sugar is very ,-a!uabk. but we producer who is doing BO much to develop also know that Australia is not producing and build up Queensland. enough sug"ar to export, and that if ,ve startt·d (•xporting to-lnorrow thcrL" would Lieut.-CDlonel RAXKlN: Step by step, 1 ii~lluediately b_e a Rhortago iri the supply. think, thP Liberal Government are lmildmg V\ hat I say Is, that und0r ordinarv con­ up and making good tho promises made to <:litimB, if sugar were not protected. there the people when they came he~e, particularly \vould be no sugar industry in Queensland. to the primary producer. 1\ e have often, and the han. member who leads the part-\· durinu the present se'->ion, dmplayed that, in the co"n~r knows that very well. ' and g~ven very sincere eYidenee o:i the respon­ sibihty we £eel. towards those, who have The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ordc>r l plavp,! such an Important part m the pro­ gr<'::,., of the country. I can quite understand ;\lr. HUXTElt: An imerjection has been that this Bill has not rmsed any great feel­ ma·de_ that tho sugar duty is inoperative, ing of enthusiasm in the breasts of hon. and It Is my duty to explain that in makin·' members opposite, for the simple reason that that interjection the hon. member i,, tryinz they recogmse that we are, to use a. well­ to nnslead the Homo. I further think that knol\ n exprc";sjon, " rnaking good " with at the end of the Bill there ,.hould he in­ n•spect to our promises and our pledges to "'ertcd a subclause protectino· the Cro'\vll the country. 'l'he hon. member who has rights in the rnatter of lnnd, o wharveb, and just resumed his seat claimed that he was runuiug rights, ~o that the Gove:--nn1ent -;t:ill, dis>tppointed in the Bill, but he f::'Iled to .after the advances have been repaid, disclooe, so far as I was able to find out, still 1.ave sufficient control over a factory whne he could show an;) great room for tu iu,,i~t UilOll its ren1aining u co-o1wrativc amendment. Certainly, he did say that it t'onccrn. The gn_•at evil I Sl'C in connection was not libPral enough-that "e should have 1\ ith this measure and the Bill for the estab­ given £2 for £1. Why did he stop there? lishment of co-operati.-e sugar-works is that \Vhy, after ,'111, was he so modest in the after a. period the co-o 1>erati ,-e. com1lanies difference he mak'JS? \Yhy not go one may "~- and more lib;ral effcctuall:v do 'D I think the farmers them­ .,.s,istancc for them. If we r;o back twenty seh·es ar'e already cognisant of. One hon . •·c>ars. wo shall find that the old Torv Govern­ member asked, " \Yhv did we stop at £1 ment were prepared to do just as' much for £1 ?" I might point out that that is this Bill will do; this measure doe.s not go exactly the assistance the farmers ha Vf\ 1!-sked one st<'p further than we went twenty years for I hold in mv hand a. letter wh10h I .ago in aseisting the meat industry. Queens­ rec~ived from the Queensland Farmers' land has evers prospect of becoming the "Fnion, representing-, ( belieYe, some thou­ largest cheese and butter producing Stat€' sands of farmer", whose general secretary, :in Australia. as far ba<:k as August of this year, wrote Liwt.-Colonel Rankin.] 2278 Co-operative Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production Bill.

recommending that some steps should be shareholders should be primary producers" taken to bring in a co-otierativ<' Bill along but we lay down that the control and go­ the lines of the Bill which has been brought vernment of affairs should be in the hands· m. TlH' writer goes on to say- of those who produce the products in respect to which the company has been foJ;"med. ,' Tho committee appointed to deal lion. members have been quoting that we with this mattar hanJ decided that an have been so much more liberal in our ad\ anco of £1 for £1 of paid-up c:apital attitude to the sugar-growers than in om· put in by the '}roducen would be a attitude in regard to this measure. But fair business proposition." hon. members know perfectly well that in tho sugar industry wo are dealing with a That is the »lrongest r< presentative body matter of hundreds of thousandd of pounds. of farmers in (,lueensland. They tell us lt is a ,·erv small sugar-mill that can be that this is what they want, and so I submit built for £100,000, but a cheese factory or that, while we are bringing in a Bill not a butter factorv can be built for a fE'w Ineeting \j, ith the wishes of hon. nwmbors hundreds on the one hand or a few thou­ opposite•, we arc giving- the people Loncerned sands on the other. Cons0quently, there is what the,- "'k for. As a matter of fact, the no parallel · between the two cases, an:d, Bill is too practicable to suit hon. members consequentlv, nothing in the argument that opposi tc. The Bill i · too liberal to suit ''"e are not.libE>ral in the Bill by giving £1 thL·m. The Bill has stamped upon it the for £1. One han. member said that we· impre·;s of the sinccritv which is so charae· were not trying to assist the sugaJ~-g10wcr ter1stic of any legislation brought in by this at all. If he had only been saved from 'ide of the House. Uonsoquently, that is Labour legislati0n in days gone by, the story why they ar{• opposed to it. It is not merely of the "ugar industry would have been :1. because it does not go far enough, because very different story to-duv. \V e know that they know perfectly well-at all events, the perfectlv well; v.e know also, perfectly well, han. member who has just resumed his seat that tho grower to-day, with wages claimed to be a representative of a con­ raised to a height unparalleled in any stituency where there is a great number of other primary industry, yet finds him­ farmers, and must know something of the self, through the attitude of a Labour feeling of the farmers-they know perfectly Govornmenf.. practically denied a sufficient well that it iP what the farmers want. pri<'E' for his product to enable him to live. Probably in the union \\·hose letter I have That is the attitude of the Labour party read there are men in his electorate whose to\vard~ the :3ugar-grower. I am not goi:ng· views are voiced by their general secretary. t.o dYrell on that anv n1or0 than to point Dealing more particularly with the Bill it­ out that it is quite• i;npossihle for any han. self, I think it is a mo;t liberal measure. nwn:!bPr on thp opposite sidP of the :Hou.,,.:: It is, too, a most comprehensive measure. to show that our efforts on this side han• It practically covers the whole range of pri­ been in anv waY inimic·al to anv of the mary products. It covers butter, cheese, prima.ry producers of this State. milk, bacon, flour, cornflour, cotton, gra~n, [8.30 p.m.] \Yiwther he be a dairynw.n, a meal, jam, and preserved fruits, and then chriod what they want, and giving it to them on of ;-ixteen : <'ars is, I think, a very liberal the most liberal terms, and under conditions period, conc.idering the cia&' of factory that which are most liberal. Statements have is propos<>d to be constructed under the Bill. been ma-de with reference to tho position of .\s a matter d facl. I am again in a posi­ the proposed Cfl·Dperative company- Ex­ tion to sav that it is quite as long ·~ period ception was also taken by the hon. member as they 'dE sire. Again. •ts showing the f<;>r. Maranoa to, the fact that we are pro­ libPl'al idc·a incorporated in this Bill, during VJdmg that the companies taking advantage tho first two V<":1.l's-during th<> initial opera­ of this Bill should have a majority of the tions of any· work brought into beiniJ' by shares in number held by persons who are this Bill-no charge at all is made tmYards primar:v producers, and it is a remarkable th,, rl'cluetion of tho amount borrowed ; only fact that han. members on the other side, who intereot ;, charg·ed, to enable the particular" are constantly quoting themselves as being industry to ''' t. on it,· feet, •·O to sp"ak. in favour of co-operation, when it comes to The same thing is applicable to tho other a que,tion of' real co-operation are on prcn-isions of tho mPasure. It has been the side of the " dry " shareholders all the prcparpd along lines which, I feel sure. will time. We had evidence of that in the recent be of rery gr<>at son·ice to tho farming division on the Co-operative Sugar \Yorks community, indeed. Its liberality is un· Bill. and we have further evid{''lCe of it here, doubted. , As I hare already pointed out. it where we have made provision that a certain actual!~- comes up to all that has bcE'n re· number of sharps should be held, if neces­ quired by the recognised farmers' union in sary, by " dry " sha n:hoklers. \Ve recognise the eountry, and consequently I feel that quite well that there may be cases where it while there is c<>rtainlv a lack of enthusiasm is necessary that ±here should be out~ide on the other side to~ards the measure so capital brought to their aid, to enable them well calculated to help the farmers, it ts to take advantage of the liberal provisions of only because the me11sure itself has a largu this Bill. We do not stipulate that all the degree of merit on the face of it. I trust [Lieut. -Colonel Rankin, Go-ope rativc Agricultural [27 NOVE:\l:BER.] Procbwtion Bill. 2279 the Bill \Yill ,-o throug·h without much '\lr. i'TEVE:'\S: I sav I accept the very amendment, and I feE'l quite •·ure no meu,­ lw;id e:X:planation. · sure pa5sed in this Chamber within recent year' is fraught with great<>r possibilities Mr. JTCXTER: I rise to a point of order. than the Bill which we are now discuF>ing. The han. rrwmbcr apnarc•ntl:: has not suffi­ I have very much pleasure in supporting cient intelligence to dis~ingmsh bdween an . the nlE'nsure. ""planation and a correctwn. He must accept my correction. Mr. STEYE~S: I have very much pleasure 'in supporting the second rea.ding The DEPL~TY SPEAKER: The hon. inem­ of this measure. As the hon. member for ber must ac<·,•pt the correction of the hon. Burrum has said, this Bill is another proof member for :i\laranoa. that the )H8scmt Government arc• sincere Mr. STEVEKS : f am sorQ' that hon. in their promise to a"sist the man on the members opposite "hould endeavour to finer land. It L only to be expected that fault-- this, in common with all other mra·•ures introduced b:.· the Government, should be ::\Ir. RYAX: Thr> hon. member has now critiei · c•d "'"'erely by members opposite. accepted the con< :t.inn. The hem. mm1¥ber for ::\laranc.:t tried very The TRKI'"cRER: IIe said so t";;ice. hard, indc eel, to find sam~ fault with it, and :\Ir. RYAN: H~ did not '"Y so. th<' only thing he could find was that all sharcholdL·r3 wer(' to be priinary prnduc'f'~·s, The DEP'CTY SPKU(EH: I under·tooti and when the hon. member for Dravton tho hon. l118n1b~r to ::u:cept thr" corr~·c-Lion, ,aid that was not so, the hon. member ·ts tho same thin;.,'", the Bill or he \You] d not ha vc made surh "the 0xplan~\tion." a ridic·ulous etatement, be."ausc the Bill pro­ The DEP'CTY SPEAKEH: Docs the hon. vides that a majority of the 'shareholders member accc>pi the correction made by the only m'> ,t be primary producers--that is to hon. 1nen1ber for I~luranon '? ,;a,, only fifty-one out of every 100 share­ holder·,, n1ust n0cess arily bo prirnary pro­ Mr. STEVENS: Most clccid<'dh·. I under­ ducer•. Pcr>cmally. I "ould haYe pref0rred stand the hou. member rose to pxplain what that the whole of the .. hareholdns .ohould be h<' had r;aid, a!ld I said I etC· optccl it. prin1a1 ."; produecrs. :VI:.r uwn expPriPnc·e has Mr. HC]';'TER: It ap]Wars to me the hon. certainly been confined to settled eli• trict ', member for :iHurilla and the hon. member for but the "rticle• of a> 'ociation of the three Rosewood are endeavouring to make the companies with which I '"" connG.:'ted all provide that none but primary producer> position of the SpL'aker very uncomfortable,. can hold share". I think that is the truo Mr. STEVE~S: Mr. Speaker-­ spirit of co-operation, but I would like to point out how the hon. member contradicted The DEPCTY SPEAKER: Order! himself. First. he wished to have "dry" Mr. STEYEI\S: I did not undershnd the shareholders in to start the n .. nturc. and hon. member to rise to a point of order .. then he \vantcd to provide aftenvards that I have possDssion of the floor. none but producer-; should be sharl'holders. How he can ace nuplish that will be for him The DEP'CTY SPEAKER : Order ! to explain. Mr. HUKTEH.: I am very sorry indc·ed liUXTER: That is not what I 'aid. Mr to han~ to rise more than once to ask an )lr. STEVEJ'\S: The hon. member said hon. me.l;lber of this House to acc•cpt a that hu was sorr,. that "drv" shareholdc·r" correction, and l ask >·ou to see that he were not allo.wNl-although they are accepts it. He has misquoted me, and I ask allowed under tho Bill--and then he said he you to see that he accept' my correction. was ~-orry that no provision '"''as nutde that The DEP'CTY SPE .\.KER : The hon. mem­ " dn· " sharchol dcrs could not hold shares ber has accepted the correction. aft<·r the ach·ance wa·; paid off. :.VIr. H'C~TER: The hon. meinbcr has ac­ Mr. IIuxTER: I e.aid provision should be u pted an expl-mation, but it wa' not an made to buy them out. explanation, but a correction that I made. ::\lr. STEVENS: The hon. member did The DEP'CTY SPK\KER: The hon. mem­ not say that. ber for HoE2wood has accepted the hon. mem­ Mr. ITCJ'\TER: I rise to a point of order. bn·'s correction. He stated so the·last time The hem. member is mi>quoting 1110. \Vhat he got up. I said Yeas that I was sorry full provision ::\tkcr-- was not made to allow " drv " shareholders to come in and I was ,t\so sorry that provi­ Mr. llYAJ\': Reallv it is too bad that sion v:a> not made in the Bill, when the the hon. member fo~ 1\iurilla should be co-operatiye company \las in a position, to allowed to sit behind the hon. member for buy out those "dry" shareholders. Hose\)ood and prompt hiu not to obey your instructions, Mr. Speaker. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. ::\1 r. BEBBIXGTOI>;' : That is incorred. (Dis­ member must ac".ept the explanation of the hon. member. order.) ::\1r. ::\lOHGAX: I ri··.e to a point of order .. Mr. STEYE~S : I accept the very lucid explanation of the hon. member. Mr. RYAX: I rise to a noint of order. The hon. member for Hosewood has not yet Mr. H'C~TER: I rise to a point of order. accepted the cnrrection of the hon. membGr I did nor make an >·xplanation ; I ma.de a for ~Iaranoa. He has accept<>cl what he correction, and I ask. that the hon. member calls an cxplanntion. Surely thcrp should be accept my correction. no quibbling about the matter. Mr. Ryan.] .2280 Oo-apera.'ive Agricnltnral [At3SE::'IIBL Y.] Production Bill.

1\lr. MORGA:">: I ri''l to a point of order. made, on the line, of the 'IV esiern Australia 'The leader of the Opposition said that I Act; but we know Yery well what has bPen was sitting behind the hon. member for the result of the extra.Yagance in that State, Rosewood, prompting him not to obey your and I think the people of Queensland recog­ instructions. nise that the present Administration are acting wi~·.. ancl their determination not l.n be _you \vere. Everyone sa \V it. recklessly extrayagant in the ad,-ances they Mr. MORGXI'\: I say it is an absolute lie. make to any industry. As the han. member for Burrum said, this Bill is drawn on the 'T}le DEPFTY SPEAKER : Order ! lines the farmers as:e language make politic"] capital. on the intrnduction of of th;,t sort, and I call upon him to with­ thn Bill, by cndeavonring to get the word draw it. "marketing" insert<'d in the order of leave, ::Ylr. MORGAN: I "ithdraw, ancl I ask but I think I showed prettv clearly last night you now to make the leader of the Opposition that it was not necessary,· so far as farmers withdra\\ the remarks ho made about me. marketing their produce is concerned. I I said that I was not instructing the han. hap]wn now to have w;th me. the firot and member for Rosewood to decline to accept the last baluncf'-sh<'ets of the company that the denial of the hon. mom ber for Maranoa. I quoted last night, ~nd it mu:. be of interest, I \vas doing nothing of the sort. I call upon not only to han. mombf'rs, bnt also to thc' you t6 ask the leader of the Opposition to producers of the State in g<'ncral, to know withdraw what he said. what has been done and what can be done in that direc-tion. The first annual report Mr. RYA:"(: I said nothing unparliamentary of the company for the twelve mon:hs ended at all. 31st August. 19C6. shows that tho turnover Mr. :MORGAN: You said I was instructing was £125.725 on a paid-up capital of £112. the han. member for Rosewood not to obey Naturally, in a new compa!l.y_, manag('d by the instructions of the Chair. new men, th0re wcw losses made, and I I\.Ir. RYAN: So you were. notice that there were sen•ml hundreds of pounds of lo-,cs made during that year. Mr. MORQA=": I ask the ]pad. \\Then they have a compan_y Mr. Hu:<:TER: Has he said so? of this sort ready established to do thmr The DEPL'TY SPE .\.KER Most decidedly business for them, what reason is there for he has fi.ctid so. I dis~inctly stated that the them, if the~r are not mtisfied with thP han. member hild done so. · proprietary agents, to continue to do business Mr. HUXTER: \Yell, I accept your state­ with them? I think that this Bill will prove ment. a boon to farmers. especially in new di<>tricts, in acquiring companie;;;; like bacon co1npan}es, Mr. STEVE_.:\S : I am one of tho quiotesl; which require a large amount of capital. members of this Hzm~e, and I hardly expected \Vith regard to butter and cheese companies to haye my spec~h mterrupted in this \\ay. in settled districts, there is no need for any Apparently,_ han. mPmbcrs opposite do not bodv of farmers to go to the Government Wish the pnmary producers to hear the views for 'monev. The financial institutions are so of members on this side. Anothc'r objection fullv sei~ed with the potentialities of co­ that the hon. member for Maranoa had to the operation that the:~' are only too ready and Bill is that it is not liberal enough. That willing to advance money to enable the also was onlv to be expected. You remember farmers to erect their own factories. \Vith Sir, how, when we had'the A,-ricultural Banl~ regard to the company whose balance-sh~et Bill befor" us, hon. member; opposite adv~­ I have just quoted from. when that verdiCt ()ated that more liberal advances should be was given against them · the financial insti- [ilfr. Morgan. [27 NOYEMBER.] PJOc/uction Bill. 2281

tutions, without being asked, offered to gin, after tho. Govemment has been paid off, the ~ssistance to tide thf' company over their co-operativ-e OWEBrs of the factorv are not ·uifficulties. i: \Vhat lawsuit are you referring than 4 per eent. on the amount thev inYe&ted. .to: I consider that the objections brotlght before th" C'hit•f Secretary from the Chamber of .7\lr. STEYEXS: The farmers cohnected J.\;la::.lufactures were distin('tly · encouraging With that company are to be congratulated for this Bill. I would be sorrv for the for pullwg theu· compr and cheese factories. Tho ... e com­ did not contain all desir<'d. A" thei1· pames that I am connected with have not objections Wf·re ::.o s7.rong, it looks as if the had to do so. In new ·districts it will r e Ol far.lh .:.·s ,,·c:·e ~roing· to get S-or::: advantage great advantage to thP farmers to lJC u(,le out of it. In the pa,-,t 1nany ~actori8s ha..ve to ;;et a,sistanc<> under this Bill. I havo been t " .. Qllli~hcd \Vith t}w aid .of !inanci-al therefore' much pleasure in supportiniT tlw i~_-st itutiou:,, T~L ~e insJitutions v;ere ah1. avs second reading. . 0 willing to adyauce the n1oney in settl~,J dfs­ tricts, bur thn- would not do f•O in new dis­ ::Ylr. B. H. CORSER (JJurnett): I think tricb.. lYe lniow, though, that when these that the farmer·.. of Que,T<'o" of Quncns:and depends on the ~xist­ [9 ]J.m.l Darling Downs tied to CPrtain cncl~ of co~opcration . an1ongst the prinutry bn,,iw firms in Brisban<> at the prP~ent tin1e. bPcause th0y have received producers, and that IS vvhv I welcome this Bill. ' a .. ;;;istanc;_~ '' hicl1 the GoYernn10nt propose to g-iYc hore lritho:lt the trr"<.tlCndoqs rate of LEXXOX: \"{lU rrivl! l\.Ir. '''hat guarantet: c~ln 0 interei't and ,.,,ithont tying the hands of the the1n ag:tiust b..:ing ruined by lawsuits': dirc,etors or >hareholders. I consid<>r that the proYision which makes it poc·sible for a Mr. B. II. CORSER: The guarantL'e of tied factory to get out of those conditiom "a~ able Liberal Administration. This Bill by the assistance which this Bill provides Will be a great boon to the farmers in Ilt'W mak0s it of great assistance to the farmer. localities. In the past it was never cPrtain I welcome the Bill a.nd I trust that it will -whether "' butter facton·. cheue factory or be one of a number of measures for the assist­ bac.on fuctory could be ·e~t1blishccl wit];' any ssful in Queensland, hcc in the direction of taking their produce >Yh' we sho1~ld. not hav·e our products con­ to the other sid'8.) cd to Bn tam and sold in the markets a do pot in London. Until then it is ques­ thor?. ::'\ot till that is done will the farmers tionable whether they will get the full results nr·pJvo their fnll share of the produce thev of their labour. We were told by the hon. send to market. h is also a "'reat adv-anta"'e member for Bnrrum that this Bill goes to to iind in this Bill that th~ "drv" sha;'e­ show tlk attitude of the Government towards holc:er is not altogether cut out because in the primar0' producer; he l1ailed. it as evr­ ~he past it has been very difficult for farmers dence that the intere,ts of the primary pro­ 1n a new locality to subscribe th•c' JWCO'"" rv ducer were b·,ing ','JHefully watched by the moneys to establish hctories of their owri. present Administration; yet, we find in the They have been pleased to receive assistance '· Daily ~\I ail " of yesterday a leading article from ''dry" shareholders and it has enabled which contains this remarkable sentence, them to find the mane•. 'due to the Gov-ern­ which I present to the hon. member for ment. However, 75 p~r cent. of the money Burrum, in order that he may digest its full is found by tho primary producers. There is significance. The article says- no great encouragement for the '• drv" share­ " Perhaps the most conspicuous feature hohkrs in t;his Bill. If th<'v ·contribute of State politics to-day is the hostility under this Bill, it will be onlv- for the a,sist­ of the rural districts to the Government.

the Down-< and the primary pmducers I since"elv hope that it will give a great generally are up in arms against the stimulus "to the primary producer and present Governinent.'' materially help him in the direction of the groat co-operatiYc movement; and I have nO> Are we to take the pronouncement of the hesitation in saying as a member of the hon. member for Burrum, who aspires to Labour party, that 'any measure which has expr<"o tho opinion of the primary producers for its object the extension of. the co-oper<;­ in this House, or the declaration in their tiYe movement by the grantmg of public official organ, the " Daily Mail " ? I think monev will receinJ the hearty endorsc'ment this party has good reason for saying that of members of this party. \V e desire to see hon. members oppo.,ite are behind a Govern­ the spread of the co-operative movement, ment which is distinctly neglecting the in­ becauee then we will have the farmers pro­ terests of the primary producer. Certainly, viding not only for their mutual benefit, but thi' Bill is a forward movement-- at a cheaper rate for the general body of consumprs. I trust that any amendments The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ordr·r! which are moved in the Bill will be in the direction of making it more acceptable to .11r. KIR\\' AN : But were we not told by those for whom it is introduced and whom it tho hon. member for Burrum that tho Fruit is intended to benefit. C" .. es Bill, the Stock and Station Produce Agents Bill, and tho Pure Seeds Bill--or, .1Ir. ARCHEH (T urmunb.Y): I think that to be mme correct, the poor seeds Bill­ thp purpose of this Bill is one .that should were what the farmer wanted, and the House receive the support of both s1cles of the pasced those mra,unes only to lind that an Hou,:e. 'I'hc purpo"e i;, obvious in the face amcndihf!' Bill w~e neccs•,ary this session to of the n1ca!:\lrP; it i':l to encourage produc­ make the Bill more in con,,onance with the tion and settlement o;1 the land. In a coml­ wishe, of the primary producclrs 'I In view trv like this. where no\Y districts are eo:n­ of eYidenco of that character, members are st[mt':y being operwd UJ?, the difficulty with quitu jmtilied in estimating at its true value the primar} produc:::· 1s to ··"ccure ma1·kets any pronouncement which comus from tho for his produce, or m the early sta,ges of corner party, particularly tho leader. He :ettlemcnt, when the numb"r of \!lectlers told this Ilouse that tho Ci1UO Price Boards in anv unc cli,,trict is not very great, to Bill-- turi1 l~is product~, into a m~rkctablc f~1:rn; and in 1nanv cJ.SL-, thPre 1s not sufhcu~nt The DEPL'TY SPEAKER: Ordm:! The inducemc ut to private ~nte:·prise to g?. o_ut hon. member is not speaking to tho BilL into a settlement and prov1de the. fac1htles for turning the products into a market<.tble Mr. KIR W .AK : I have no wish to come form. :Members on both sides of the House into conflict with your ruling, Sir, but [ and public opinion support the co-operative was endeayouring to sho>' that the state­ principle, and this Bill sets out to estab­ ments they have made in regard to the pri­ lioh that principle in the interest of the mary producers are not correct; they have primary producer and of the country. It mado statements one sesoion and have come is in the intere>' d the ~onntry. because down tho next session, and in son1e instances the proepcrity of tho C?mmonwcalth dcpen~s practically turned a somoreault with regard upon primary productwn. I haYc !ward It to them. Tho hon. member for Burnett ex­ said outside the House that the State should pressed tho hope that, at some futuro date, not utili "c its monevs in this dir0ction, and there would be an amendment of the measure it has be0n pointc:d out that, under the in the direction suggested by the hon. mem­ old ::\Ieat and Dain Produce Encourag<'ment ber for .Marano a. \V e know that suggestions Act the monevB so adYanced werp raised which come from this side are scoffed at by fro~ the producer' th0m·'·dve'. This Bill has hon. members opposite; we know that it is a yery much wider scope than the :i'ilcat only in keeping \Vith their policy to do and Dain· Produce Encouragement Act. that-- That Act \vas put on ths ':ere hon. nwm her must keep to the question. C'll.ttle-raising for meat and butter-makmg. ::'\py, w~ arc going beyond that. In many districts, along the coast '"'pc,·ially, the fruit · ~lr. KIH\YA:0.": I am loading up to the industrv is being de\'eloped, and it would point that the hon. member for .LV1aranoa be obv!ouslv unfair to use the money rai,ed moved an amendment, which the pretended bv ·a !cvv' on stock for indu.,trie' which friends of the farmer on the other side hl:tw, nothing whatever to do with o,tock.. jumped upon; ·yet the hon. member for tho It seems to inc a perfectly lPgitimatc thing Burnett said that, Possibly, this Bill would to adyanrc public fu•tcb-loan funch-for be enlarged in the direction sugg< i•ted by the the 0Xpl'L""'o;; purpose not. only of incrt,asing hon. member for J\Iaranoa. I am al··O our production gencru.lly, but aho of e!'­ endeavouring to point out that members on abling profitable settlement to take place In this side are just as much alive to the new areas which are far awav from the interests of the primary producer as hon. mark0t and where settlNs have 'not accumu­ members opposite. \V('. may differ regarding lated ~ su!Iicient amount of monev to be methods, but I distinctly object to having abie to e~tablish factories without assist­ member• on this side. pointed out as the an~c. If production is to be encouraged, it enemies of the primary producer. Hon. is ab~olutelv 0f'M'ntial that every a'"~isl'ance members opposite also said that they agreed should b<' given by the Stat0 in the direc­ to the Bill "ith a certain amount of pleasure tion indicated in this BilL As I under­ because it did not provide for the fixing of stand it, the Bill provides for an advance prices. It is rather strange that when price; bv the GoYernment of £1 for eyery £1 are fixed by trusts and combines, hon. mem­ subscribPd bv the farmers for the erection bers opposite maintain a strict silence; but of plant.. That seem" to be u yery fair when they are fixed in the interests of the propo.-ition. Th0 provision by t~e produ~erl'l consumer a howl goes up about robbing the tlwmsch<'' of a part of the cap1tal regmred primary producer. I trust that the passage will show that the producers have sullicient of this measure will have the desired effect. confidenc0 in the prospects of their industry [Mr. Kirwan. Co-operative Agricultural [27 NOVEMBER.) Production Bill. 2283 to ju,tify them in asking the State to assist has bDc>n addnct'd again.st that, and it is them to the extPnt of £1 for every £1 ob\Tious to 111e that the fruitgrowers and the subscribed. "With regard to the protection Downs fanners have not the san1e inJu£'1nce­ of the co-operative principle, the Bill con­ \Vith the Govornrn<"nt as tho sugar-growers, tains a prov!sion which says that, befor'-' nJthou~,~h eYPll th(' :-:,ugar-grrs. This Bill would have would have gone further than that if ne~es­ been a better Bill if it had contamed some sary-that is to say, a provision enacting provision wid1 regard to tlw rnarketrng of that any company formed under this mea­ primary products. I'rin_rary l?roducers reu!~Y sure should includt assistance, but the party in the tal to bP held by any one person, and a corner, "'··hie!! I have heard des<"ribnd us the further clause pro.-icling that all profits­ round-robin p11rty, think that ": mea;,ure after proyision has been made for a statutory of thi,, sort 1vill suffice. It 1YUS rntcn'l- ,ting cliviclencl of 5 per cont., for all repayments to hc>ar the hon. member for Hose'' ood talk­ to the Government, and for depreciation­ ino· a~,nut the FaraJcrs' C,:)-opc_rative and should be divided as dc>forred pa "7ment or Di-;.tributing Company o • Queensland, bonus among tlw produeers on tho" basis of Limited, aud tellinp; us about .all the good the produce supplied' to the factory. With thev ha yc done. The only tlung the h~m. such a provision, the company would have me;nbcr had to find fault with in connectiOn tho benefit of thstmg to benefit of the capital which pc>ople ,vho are Ill<' to h0ar the hon. UlC'mber for Rosc-·;s-ood not product>r·: are willing to put into the cn the 1·arious varded in the mme padclodr to-mght. Can provisions como before us in Committee they tiw--e two parties co,ne to,;other to do an~ can be dealt with, but I wish just now to rca! good for th? farmers of Queensland . say that I heartily support th,. measure. It That 'is the question that the farmers will is a st.cp entirely in the right dircdion. a::.,k then1scdves. The principle of assisting settlement and produdion is one which can be entirely The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The bon. justified. I do not think public moneys can n1en1 ~,cr 111u'ht not prucN'd along tho>;e lines. be used to b0tter purpose than in a>,o;isting industries in the way proposed. Such assist­ }lr. RYAX: I do not intend to chnll upon anco will be a g1·eat ben0fit. not only to the producers themselves but also to the popula­ it. tion of our citie•,, because all produce raised }lr. TROl.:T: It is fairly personal. in the back country must go through our cities. so that ever>" section of the com­ :Sir. RY A::\ : ::'\ot at all. The matter was munitv will be benefited. For those rea· in"roduced by the hon member for Rosc­ sons I do not think you will find many per­ ,,.~0c!. and I am sure if the han. member son•, who will oppose the principle laid down had been ]wre he would have hca~·d the in this Bill. refprence. I am only drawing attentwn, m passing, to the fact that we ~ave. the l?roduce 2Ylr. Rx"AN: It is really remarkable how merchant introducing legislation m the members in the corm,r claim such great credit interests of the farml'rs. I say that those for then.selves for having induced the Go­ two tbings do not coalb-Ce well, and I am Ycrnmf'-nf to introduce this Bill. Some of a! ·-o drawing attention to the fact that .some· them claim credit for the Government for 1110 re real genuine lcn;i~ lation. should be Intro­ having introduced it on their own initiative, duced than that which is bemg brought for­ hut the hon. member for Burnett claimed ware! by the present Government. And I that the corner party had sufficient influence would like to point o~t _that hon. members in the Chaml><'r to compel the Government opposite have been .clmmmg g;eat cr~d1t ~f to introduce the Bill. HoweYer that may late for tho great mtcn-t which the} _ha\e he, as I have pointed out over and over in the primary producer mbe~s arid that it ought to go further than it does ,vere g-iYen .an opport:lnrty of deflnrng their go. and I have failed to hc'io argument argument. Mr. Ryan.] 2284 Go-operative Aaricuiturol [ASSE::\IBLY.] Producticn Bill.

Mr. RYAN: I am supporting the second of that body that the rise would not benefit reading of the Bill, but I say that it should the growers at all, because their agreements go further .. And when the hon. member for bind the grower to sell his cane at a certain Burrum was speaking, and tho hon. member price, and the person who would benefit for Drayton, they directed all their attention would be the millowner, the Colonial Sugar to this party, and surelv I am allowed to Refining Company, or whatever other com­ point out what the other·side will do for the pany happened to own the mill. I hope that farmer. \Y c were almsc·J; we were told some amendments will be introduced in the that we were narrow-minded; it was our Bill in Committee which will make it some­ _party all the time from the hon. member what better than it is. for Burrum and the hon. member for Dray­ ton nnd the hon. member foe- Rosewood. The The SECHETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: whole trend of their remarks was to show It is not my intention to deliver a long th'at ''' c were not the friends of the farmers, sprcech in reply. The hon. member has. made and th:.•t the Bill was not being introduced to some remarks in regard to the marketmg of please hon. members on this side or the produee. So far as that matter is con­ House. I am pointing out that, when allega­ cerned. it is practically a' well provided tions of that sort arc made against this for by co-operative companies already in party. it is high time that Parliament ohoulcl ex;stcncp and when vou think that a co­ call npon them to define their position; op-erativr~ company v:hic·h '"'hrtcd with a .and I venture to sav that, "hen they are capital of £10 is able to market produce yarded up, you will ·find them in the· same to the extent of £125,000 and has a capital paddock and the farmers will sec them in of £113,000. it surely docs not require much thuir true positions. a'sistance on the part of the Government. Ahc•r hearing the speech of the hon. mem­ :'}lr. GRA:-;T: You seem more interested m ber for Rockhampton last night, I made some .members hero than in the Bill itself. inquiry with regard to the fruitgrowing industrv. and I learned that the Queensland l\Ir. RYAN: The people of Queensland are Fruit-growers' and Industrial Trading very interested in the matter, and I am Societv, w hie h is composed entirely of tired of the humbllg we hear talked about rrrowei·s. started in 19C6 with "' capital of the friends of the farmer•·. I say that it is £74. The fruit f'lqiorted by this company high time that members of Parliam0nt were during the ,-ear ended the 26th :March, given an opportunity of defining their posi­ 1914, c·onsisted of 154,186 P!lckagcc. of a flTO'B tion .and allowing the people to see where value of £56,381 8s. · The company also sold they are. The hon. member for Drayton in Brisbane 56,754 packages of fruit and went out of his way to make an attack on wgchlbles of a grosg value of £13.058 6s. ld. the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth. It will thus be seen that the ca SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: fident if there is any tJ''liibl_e about tll;e The Council had added a subclause read­ cheese market in London we Will see that rt ing- is put on the market at the V<'!Y best price. '' EH'l"Y railway district constituted or That is about the only question that was purporting to have been constituted raised. I think this Bill should not be under the Hailways J .. ct of 1906 shall be viewed as a party measure in any shape or dc·c>mcd to have been duly con be gmw through. The hon. member for QuectioG-That the Bill be now read a j\farauna wouki remember that in connPction se~ond time-put and passed. with the Roma to Oralio Railwav one of the councils concl'rned dc•layed the. starting of Tho consideration of the Bill in Committe<' the railway fer quite a long time through ww' made an Order of the Day for :\londay forg-etting to t •.ke a poll. This "as simply next. a oanng claus~ to enable them to get oyer sligh PlTOts jn connection w~th the consti­ tuting of a railwa:,- district. IIe moved that the Coun~il"s amendment be agreed to. RAILWAYS RILL. QnL" tion put and passed. CoxsiDEnATIO)( rx CoonUTTEE oF Col:xcrL's On datu" 82-'' How deficiency to be made AME!\D:UEXTS. good"-~ The DEP'CTY SPRAKER: I call upon Tlw SECHETAl: { POH IU.ILIYAY8 said th::;t the Council ilad inserted the 'Yards, the hon~ member for Carnarvon to take the ",,·ithin +w,•nt•·-four month·, from the dcclara­ chair. t:du of ,,[ .~h cfdiciC'ncy in -che- • Gazette,' " in :Hr. GuK!\ thereupon took the chair. hne ;'h. dter tho word ''levied." lie thought it was only lair that n tirnc Iitnh should be Clau~e 32- -·' Ca·q.) of ab !.'::.-;.tc cf rnc:<_nbcr of bGard ., __ fixed within 1\ hich rates could bo lcYied, b, cam<' proputieb frequently ohangPd hands. ThP SECRETARY FOR RAILV\AYS OnP or t-\1 o Il1:',t;dlCE·,' had come under the nioYed that the Council's anwndnH:-nt or1 twtim• of the d<')J.art mont since the Bill was line' 22 to 23 be agre<·d to. The amendment draft• cl whore rates lJad not be, n levied upon wa~ in connection 'vith appeals, and he \{"as properties which afterwm·cls changed Lands, afraid when th0 clause was before the Com­ and. naturally, tho ill'\\· o'sners ohjcct0d to mittee prnty-four months was a QuP·,[ion put and pas,ed. reasonable time to allow, and he therefore monrd that the l'ouncil's amendme'lt be "\ con: equential amendment on linoo 27 ,,greed to. and 28 was "!so agreed to. Queetion put and passrcd. Clause 38-'' Closure of roads"- Similar consequential anwndments mad'l The SECRETARY FOR RAILW .. \YS b'>· the Council in clau;,cs 85 and 86 were moved that the Council's amendnwnt on agrc;)d to. line' 44 and 45 be agreed to. Tho Council On clause 87-" Application of Local harl inserted the words " and the objectors Authorities Acts"- shall be heard by the :Minister if they so desire." It was a verv reasonable amend­ Th" SECHETAHY FOR RAILWAYS said ment, and it gave the objeetors to the that in the RailY, .tys Guarantee _\ct of 1006 closure of a road the right to appr.al to the it was provided that tho penalty for the Minister and voice their objections. non· payment of rates after sixty d~ys was the addition of 6 per cent. inten•st. The Question put and passed. Council omitted t:w word "six," in line 17 Clause 72-" Subs,ituted roads"- of th:s clau;-,,•, and inserted the \Vord "fiY':'.'' l:ndcr the Local AuthoriJies Act the penalty The SEORET".\RY FOR RAILIVAYS: for tho non-payment of rates within a speci­ In that clause the Council had inserted the fied time "as only 5 per cent., and it "as words " The question of the sufficiPncy of only fair to bring the Railways Guarantee such substituted road shall. in case of dis· Act of E.J6 into line with the Local Authori­ pute, be d0termined by the Governor in ties Act in that respect. He therefore moved Council." That was an improvement to the that the Council's amenc1ment be agreed to. clause, as it gave any perso~ who felt Mr. GRANT: This seemed onlv a little aggrieved, or thought the substituted road matter, but a very important principle \\as ilfr. Grant.] 2286 Railuays Bill. [ ASSE::\IRLY.] Railu·ays Bill.

invoh-ed. The amendment :was an i'l.ter­ of dealing }\'i th these matters. The rigid ference with the revenue of thCc State, and, enforcement of this claim proved incon­ \vhile th<'Y might all agree that 5 per cent. venient; and in 1849 the Commons was quite enough, still the Council had no adopted a Standing Order, based on a right to make an amendment which ,.,, as an resolution passed in 1831, which gave interference with the privileges of the .A"s<'lll­ the Lords power to dea:, by bill or bly in regard w a maHer affecting the amendment, with pecuniary penaltie~, revenue of the State. It might be inflicting forfeitures, or fees, when the object of a slight additional p "'ctlty on those who their legislation was to secure the execu­ were in arrears with their rates, but he did tion o£ an Act; proyided that the fees not think they should allow the Council were not payable into the exchequer, or to interfere in such a matter. in aid of the public revenue." The amendment dealt with pecuniary :Mr. THEODORE: Th·' contentiotl of the penalties. It was not a matter of paying the han. member for Fitzroy that they should money into the public revenue. not accept such an amendment lrom the Council was a sound one. '' i\Ia\ 's Parha­ Mr. THEODORE: It goes into the revenue. mentary Practice," lOth Edition-and no The PRE::\IIER: It was not in aid of alteration had been made by the 11th Edition revenue at all. It was a penillty imposed in this respect-under the heading '· Relaxa­ for not meeting due obligations. He was tion o£ Cornn1ons' Privileges/' said- sure tliat the spirit of the Committee was " Tho claim to exclusive legislation over to meet the Council in its reduction of the charges imposed upon the people was amount hom 6 per cent. to 5 per cent. The formerly extended by the Commons to Committee would be in order in accepting the imposition o£ foes and pncuniary the amendment, because Standing Order Nc. penalties, and to provision; which touched 300 was clear and specific where it said-- the mode of suing for fees and penalt1.c:s, " (1) When the object of such pt•cuniilry and to their application when recovered; penalty or forfeiture is to secure the and theY denied to th~ Lords the pm;er execution of the Bill, or the punishment of dealing with th0~e matters. 1'he rigid or prevention of offences." enforcement of this claim proved incon­ venient; and in 18 }9 the ( 'ommons adopted This is merely a penalty, a Standing Ord<·cc, ba'·ed on a resolution C.lr. THEODORE: This is one of the excep­ pe.ssed in 1831, "hich ;;ave the Lords tions 1nentioncd by .. :alay," where Inoney is power to deal, by Bill or amcndml nt, paid into tho Trea•ury. 1.0ith pecuniary p~·naltie~, ~ f~rfeitu_res,. or fees when the ob]Pd oi thclr lepslahon The l'RE11IEU: It was not paid into the was' to secure the C'"{Ocuiioa oi an A.ct; Tre.tsury. .~, a matter of fact, all moneys :provided that the ices were not payable aro paid into tho Treasury. 'l'hi::; is mto the exchcq1wr, or in aid of the clearly a peualt;., and comd noc be regarded public r.:.:vcnuc." as an aia to tlk Trea>.ary. The Standing Urder permitted them to accept the amend­ These fel'B were to he paid into the public ment, 1t being in the nature of a penalty, rcvenut.\ and, cons,~qnently.. the exemption 1 and he was sure that members of the Com­ quoted by '':\lay" did not apply. It v;as mittee \H>ulcl prefer to have the penalty therdorc not within the power of the Connell reduced from 6 per cent. to 5 per cent. But to insert an amendment- reducing tlw rate ;f members wished to insist on their privi­ of interest, thereby reducing the amount of revenue that would be paid into the public leges, they could send the clause back to Treasur,,. The amcndrnent y,as clearl;.- out the Legislative Council and have the 6 per of ordm:. cont. rein;;.,erted. The PRE:\IIER: Thei1· own StandinJ Mr. GHANT thought that the Chief Sec­ Order Ko. 300 clearly provided for such a retarys contention was right, as tho first snbclaw'e of Stlative Council to the should be jealous of its pnvileg1 s iP- matters Hous•e with amendments, whereby a of this kind, but, as their own Standing pecuniary ponalt,,, forfeiture, or fc,e. is Urder permitted it, he would not insist on imposed, appropriated, regulated, vaned. his point of order. or oxtinguishe:l. the Hou''O will not insist on its privileges in the following cases:- :Mr. LENJ';'OX thought the point of order \\as a really good one. In the interests of 1. When tho object of such pecuniary the community, they should, perhaps, with­ penalt~· or forfcitur':' is to secure .t~e draw the point of order, but they had to executwn of the B1ll, or the pumsn­ consider the rights of the .\ssembly in the ment or prevention of crimes." matter. It was clear that, under Standing Thi5 mo-t clearly was for that purpose. That Order No. 300, the matter was one of public Standing Ord0r is snppori<'d by "::VIay." accounting, and the Council had no rism·y, l contend " (5.) ::-.; o Ordec· in Council made or pur­ it is no': competent f01· the House to accept porting to be made undc>r this Act shall this infringement of its privileges, and a be called in qw-stion in any proceedings message should be returned to the Legis­ whatever unless such proceedings arc latiYe Council to that effect. l ask for your taken within twc>lvc months from the ruling. date of publication of such Order in The PRE:\IIER: I think provision haii Council in the ' Gazette,' " clearly been made for a case such as that be agreed to. This dc·alt with the publica­ under re\ iew at the pre:_:mt time. Subclause tion of Orders in Council. He understood (ii.) of clause 87 of the Hill provideo- that it was entirely a legal con..-lition, a-r1d .. If '-' lore oYer, the Stand­ will not insift on its priYih~fre<;\ in the inv Order refers to an1endment"''- follo1.ving Gases:- o '" whPreby a pccuniar: penalty, forfei­ I)) \Yiwn the obje~t nf meh JWC'uniury ture, or fee is authorised, imposed, ap­ p~'lonalty or forft'Hnre i·.-; to :;;1: •. ~ure pro~ ria.tcd, regulated, varied, or extin­ the e··:('eution of tlw Rill. c.r th<' guished," p1~ni~hr11~;nt or prPvc±rtjon of { ffenct..,. as aiJ.long tho~c with regard to vrhich the· A>-.embh. will not imist on its priYilcgH'. That j,; what tlce hon. member for Fitz­ It sec1n8 to lnf> that tho"-e \Vorc1-., "regu­ roy says is the c:~··f' in (hL' l.Ht·-, nt in·.ta1;·~e. lated., anti ''varied,'~ 0ov: r the pr(_lsent cu.;e, In sorne ,.ensf' anv Pf'<'nniarv r>enalt ....t nHlV anJ, thNefore, that the amendment do"~ not be saicl to be im\l•,-•cd with' th:· object of infringe the privileges of thu As.,cmbly. securing tbz~ execution of the BilL but this is a hitrh- l rate of iPtere;;.t on (-apit:d. which Tlw DEP.CTY SPEAKER: I am of goe-- inh). thr> reY('nue, ron.;:.f'quPntlv. I think opinion that the amendment is in order, and the Council is g-ui!h of a br;·,•.C'h of priYil<•C\<·. that it docs not infringe the privilege~ of All nwmbers will agree thot thi,; Hvus•·• is the Ll•gislativo A••sernbly. very jcalon' of its priviko:n, and t.hat it :Hr. THEODORE: I ll"ive notice that it is is very m:CC"· ~ry that ,,.e slll.uld ~ .rard our mv int:tl the re,olution be t}w Legi,lative Council with a message in the usual form-that the Legislative Council's ~grecd to. Thcre \vill bB no trouble in hav­ mg that agr!'ed to on :Mondav or Tu0sdav amendments haYe been agreed to. next, and in the mnantimo the. Sp('ak<'r will ::\Ir. RYAN: Surely, the ::Ylinister aoes not have time to consider th:> question. I make intend to go on with thi·s motion, becauso this .;ug-geo

-that he will persevere with his motion. Mr. RYAN: We did not think you would Jlersevere this afternoon, but you did. The PREMIER: There was a big prin­ -ciple at stake there. }Jr. THEODORE: So the1•e is here. The PRE::\1IER: No. I think the Standing Orders "re absolutely clear, and, if there wa:; an:~ question of privilege, we should have taken objection to it. 'There is a Bill 1 to collh ._ 1:1 sun1o da,;· nt.xt \.vePk, po'·:->ibly, tho RrrillCJoS Traction Bill, which has come back fmm the other ChambPr. \Ve cannot pc~ ,}bly i.wcept their an1enduwnt, boca use it ic a ellal' inh;ng< :n~:nt vf thr• priYilegcs of ih': Hou'<'. 1 do not think it i' lik<>ly that th0 ,,otic•' c:ivcn ·will be cl"cdt ith within the next tlll'h~ ~cL~:y ··. Ti1no is passin[;", and I a1n f':tti Gr d that \V·'"' arc going to lofe a lot of tinw nPx.t v,:eek. I hop0 the hon. rn,·n1ber will nnt pe,,,j :t in his motio.l. .:\lr. THEODORE: I would just like to say .thRt the :mggection made b;y the leader of the Gove;·nment that I am not serious in giving notice is not correct, because the point rai,ecl is a serious one and worth considera­ tion, because it is a distinct breach of the privileges of this House. And as the point has been raised on several occasions in the last se:1:,ion or two, it would be well to get a decision on the question. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vith the approval of the House, I think it would be advisable if the adoption of the , report were rescinded, and then I will move that the adoption of the report be made an Order of the day for Monday. Question-That the motion for the adoption of the report be rescinded-put and passed. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I beg to move that the adoption of the report be m:1de an Order of the Day for Monday next. Question put and passed.

ADJOURNMENT. The PRE}liER : I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. JI.Ir. RY.-.N: I should like to ask a ques­ tion on the adjournment. The Chief Secre­ tary has not ,:tated what the business will be. The PREMIER : The want of confidence motion. Question put and pas:. d. The Honse: adiourned at twenty-nine minutns past .10 o'~lock.

1914-7 A