Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 23 AUGUST 1910
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
524 Correction in "Hansard." [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.
LONGREACH SCHOOL OF ARTS LAND SALE BILL. REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE. Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell), as chairman, brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Longreach School of Arts Land Sale· Bill. Ordered to be printed. The second reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Thursday, 1st Septem ber. QUESTIONS. MEAT AND DAIRY PRODUCE ENCOURAGEMENT FuND. Mr. FOX (Normanby) asked the Secretary· for Agriculture- 1. What are the amounts to the credit of each division under the Meat and Dairy Produce En couragement Act of 1893-- (a) By way of principal; (b) By way of interest? 2. Is it intended to pay to the certificate holders· under the Meat and Dairy Produce Encouragement Act of 1893 the accrued interest received from the mortgagors, less the cost of management and other expenses; if so, when is it intended to make the first payment in respect to any one of the divisions, LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. or how is it intended to dispose of the said interest? The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. T. Paget, Mackay) .replied- TUESDAY, 23 AUGUST, 1\)10. 1. (a and b.) BALANCE,
The DEPUTY SPEAKER (W. D. Armstrono-, - Meat Fund. Dairy Fund. Esq., Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 0 3 o'clock. £ 8. d. £ 8. d. QUEENSLAND NATIONAL BANK Southern ...... 10.183 19 0 1,848 911 Central ...... 10,8J9 0 9 525 14 4 REPORT. Northern ...... 4,773 17 5 1,823 8 9 The DEPUTY SPEAKER reported that Carpentaria· ...... 355 15 4 444 19 2' he had received from the Auditor-General a letter, dated 19th instant, covering his re 2. The assessment under the meat fund hss been port on the balance-sheet of the Queensland repaid in full to all who have applied. A Bill has been National Bank, as laid before the share prepared for presentation to Parliament dealing with holders in general meeting on the 18th in the balances in the interests of the contributors. stant. Ordered to be printed. ROUTES FROM SOUTH COAST LINE TO CANUNGERA. PAPERS. -Mr. S'l'ODART (Logan) asked the Secretary The following paper, laid on the table, was for Railways- ordered to be printed :-Report, dated 6th !. Is it the intention of the Railway Department Jul:v, 1910, from the Agent-General on the to cause a full repoTt to be made on the three pro subject of Savings Bank securities held in jected railway routes from the South Coast line to· London. Oanungera before a trial survey is made to that The following papers were laid on the centre? table:- 2. lf so, when will an officer be available to make Return to an Order, made by the House, such reports and survey? on motion of Mr. Coyne, on the The SECRETARY FO.R RAILWAYS: 16th instant, relative to the recent (Hon. W. T. Paget, Mackay) replied- stealing case at Hutton's Zillmere Factory 1. 'l1he officer in charge of surveys has already inspected and reported upon the var~ous proposed Return to an Order, made by the House, routes to Canungera, and it is upon his recom~ on motion of Mr. Coyne, on the 4th mendation that it has been decided to complete the instant, relative to the conduct of a trial survey ( co·mmenced some years ago) from police sergeant at Beaudesert. Logan Village. On completion of the trial survey the matter of route will be further considered. CORRECTION IN HANSARD. 2. In about three months. Mr. FERRICKS (Bowen) : I wish to correct PRICES OF LAND ON MARYVALE. the report of an interjection which appears on page 295 of H ansard. During the speech of Mr. MULLA::>! (Charttrs Tower§), for Mr. the hon. member for Gympie I am reported to Alien, asked the Secretary for Public Lands- have interjepted, "We can have a second What was the object of the Lands Department in charging the selectors on Maryvale £113,470 17s. Sd. referendum." What I said was-and that is for land purchased for about £87,906 14s. 6d., being how I would like it to read-" We do not want au advance of nearly 30 per ceut., when the Land a second referendum." Act provides for au increase of only 10 per cent.? [Hon. T. O'Sullivan. Questions. [23 Auausr.] Questions. 525
The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS ment and resignation of Mr. Sydney Dodd, vete (Hon. D. F. Denharn, Oxley) replied- rinary surgeon? The M aryvale Estate was opened on valuations The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE :furn'ished in .the us~al way by responsible officers, ancl the readmess w1th which the land was selected replied- is evidence that it was not overvalued for selection. Yes. I now beg to la.y on the table all papers The Act provides a minimum advance, not a maxi and correspondence referred to. mum.. The department is improving the estate by erecting certain bridges and culverts which other wise could not have been done had values not ex TOTALISATOR LICENSES. ·Ceeded 10 per cent. Mr. CO'l'TELL (Toowong) asked the Chief Secretary, for the Attorney-General- TEA SUPPLIED AT PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS. 1. What number of totalisator licenses have been Mr. MULLAN, for Mr. Alien, asked the issued during the past three years- Home Secretary- ( a) To bond fide racing clubs? 1. Is it a fact that numerous complaints an; being (b) To proprietary racing clubs? made by the inmates of the public institutions 2. What amount of tax ha-s been received from under the control of his department about the poor each club during the said three years? 1JUality of the tea supplied? 2. Is it a fact that in some of those institutions The PREMIER (Hon. W. Kidston, Rock tea has had to be bought outside the contract in order to get quality fit to drink? hampton) replied- This information is in course of preparation, and 3. In reference to tende1•s called for on 3rd Feb will be supplied as soon as possible. ruary, 1910, for the supply of 1,500 lb. of tea to be ·delivered on 18th May, 1910- (a) Was the tea supplied up to the standard? BREACH OF FACTORIES AND SHOPS ACT. (b) Was there any dispute as to quality between the storekeeper and the contractors? Mr. BARBER asked the Secretary for (c) Was the tea ultimately taken. delivery of? Public Works- (d) Were the contractors paid the original price 1. What is the number of employees at Bundaberg tendered at? who were, according to the lady inspector for fac tories and shops, paid a less wage than that pre {e) Have the Government any officers in their scribed by the Factories and Shops Act? employ capable of distinguishing between the tea actually supplied and the standard 2. Has the balance of the said wages been paid upon which the contract is based? up yet? (f) Can that officer tell the difference of, say, 3. If the employers refuse to pay the back wages, ~d. or ·~d. per lb. in tea? what action does the Government intend to take·? (g) At what price was the above contract accepted? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (h) Do the Government expect to get tea fit to (Hon. W. H. Barnes, Bulimba) replied- drink at this price? 1. Seven. 2. Arrears due have been paid in three cases, and The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. G. receipts are held by local inspector . .Appel, .Albert) replied- 3. Employers will be prosecuted on receipt of 1. No. eTidence of refusal to pay arrears. 2. No. .3. (a) Yes. \b) There was a difference of opinion between RETURNS UNDER THE 'rRADES UNIONS ACT. the Government Storekeeper and the con Mr. MAOARTNEY (Brisbane North) asked tractor with reference to three chests, which were rcj ected. the Chief Secretary, for the Attorney (c) Yes, except the three chests mentioned in General- (o). 1. What trade unions (if any) required to trans (d) Yes. nli.t returns to the registrar under section 20 of the ~e) An independent expert is employed by the Trades Unions Act, 1886, prior to the first day of Government Storekeeper to test tea for the February, 1910, have failed to transmit such returns? public service. He b not an officer of the 2. Has any action been taken in respect thereof, public service. against. whom, and with what result? (f) Yes. 3. Are the powers of the registrar in regard to \V) 6td. per lb. compelling the delivery of such returns, and in (lt) The tea supplied has always been satisfac respect to ordering audits, considered sufficient? . tory so far as is known. When landed it is carefully tested against the standard by a The PREMIER (Hon. W. Kidston, Rock qualified expert, whose certificate is ao· cepted. I mig·ht state that the contractor h.ampton) replied- landed a quantity of the same tea over and 1. (a) The Brisbane United Coal Workers' and above the quantity specified in the contract. Lightermen's Union. This surplus they were able to dispose of to (b) The Toowoomba Bread Carters' Union. the local trade at prices ranging from td. (c) The Western Workers' Asaociation. to 1d. per lb. more than the price specified in their contract with the Government. I 2. Proceedings taken ag-ainst Doyle, the secretary might also mention that the Government of (a) on 1st August, who was fined £1, with 3s. 6d. recently raised the standard of tea. Under costs of court, and £2 2s. pro.fessional costs (total, the last contract made, tea must be sup £3 5s. 6d.), at the North Brisbane Police Court. plied to the new standard, and the contract Further proceedings are being taken against price is 7i;d. per lb. Doyle to require the immediate furnishing of these returns. The secretaries of (b) and (c) have been warned. MR. SYDNEY DODD, VETERINARY SUBGl!OM". Thie. action i.s considered sufficient for this .occasion, Mr. BARBER (Bundaberq) a.sked the Secre as these are new unions. tary for Agriculture-- 3. The registrar has hitherto experienced littl<> dtftloulty in. obtaining the requisite returns, and s,ny Will he lay on the table of the House all papers representatiOns made by that officer for increased ~nd correspondence in connection with the appoint- powers will receive consideration. 526 New Sessional Orderlf. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders.
EMPLOYMENT OF ABORIGINALS IN the only thing about which there will be any GULF DISTRICT. debate on this matter. I, for one, quite realise that possibly some members may take up a On the motion of Mr. NEVITT (Oarpen great deal of time, and that in consequence taria), it was formally resolved- there is a possibility of other members being precluded from speaking; although when That there be !aiel upon the table of the House a return sliowing-- sitting on the other side I found that silence there was not always traceable to that, but 1. The number of aboriginals registered in the that it was sometimes due to a desire to allow districts of Normanton, Burketown, and Camooweal. business to go through by not hampering the 2. The name of each station which has abori- side which members supported. So that really ginals registered. ' the suggestion that because members get up and speak at considerable length other mem 3. The number of aboriginals registered by each bers are prevented from speaking is not station. warranted by the facts. By this proposed new 4. The :tverage wage paid to each aboriginal. Sessional Order it is suggested that members' 5. The amount of money helil in trust by the should be restricted to half an hour at a time Protector in each of these districts for the in a debate on any matter in the House, ex aboriginals. cept the Address in R.eply, a want of con 6. For what purpose this money is available. fidence motion, and the Financial Statement. 7. How much of this monev has been spent by To my mind, the one defect in the proposai the Protector during the last five years. is that the limitation is applied to a speech on the second reading of a Bill. I do not know what other members' opinions are in regard to this, but it seems to me that to restrict a NEW SESSIONAL ORDERS. speech on the second reading- of a Bill to half TIME LIMIT OF SPEECHEs--RESUMPTION OF an hour is infinitelv too drastic. If the motion DEBATE. goes through in i'ts present form, I am per fectly certain that it will operat"' oppressively, On the Order of the Day being read for the harshly, and in a way that has not quite oc resumption of adjourned debate on Mr. curred to the framers of the proposed new Kidston's motion-- rule. If the motion is amended to the extent Tbat the following rule be made a Sessional Order of allowing, say, one. hour for second-reading for this session:- speeches. then possibly I should be morA in favour of it than I am at present. Consider TIME Lil\iiT OF SPEECHES. the nature of the business that will have to be discussed during this sess;on. Suppose, for No member Shall speak for more than half an hour , at a time in any debate in the House except in the example, the Police Offences Bill comes on. debate on the Address in Reply, or on a direct I do not know if nJGmbers have taken the motion of 1-vant of confidence, when a n1ember shall trouble to go throu. Mr. MAUGHAN (Ipswich): I beg to move Might I say, as a member of the Standing that the motion be amended by the insertion Orders Committee, that, sp far as I remember, before line 1 of the following words :- the matter o-f referring back the Sessional That the House do now resolve itself into a Oom· Orders to that committe-e was never even mi ttee of the Whole to consider the following brought up, and I question very much indeed resolutions:- whether it was even anticipated. At the same I need hardly say that in moving this amend· time, I must admit. from what I can judge. ment I am not actuated by a desire to obstruct o£ the feeling of the' committee, that no seri business, but propose it rather with a desire ous objection would have heen taken by mem to facilitate business, and not only to facili ber's of that committee if the House had sent tate business, but also to get the best possible the Standing Orders back for future considera results from the matters discussed. Any tion. But it would appear that the hon. alteration or amendment of our Standing gentleman at the. head of the Government Orders is a very important matter for this had made up his mind that the committee House. As the leader of the Government shall not sit again to deal with this particular pointed out the other day, the, proposed new question, although, as a, matter of f&ct, I rule is simply a progress report from the consider that the whole of the Standing Standing Orders Committee. Having regard Orders, from Alpha to Omega, want thorough to that statement, I think the hon. gentle consideration, and to be brought up to what man might have accepted the suggestion may be termed modern requirements. How that after due deliberation and discussion on ever, a,s one member of the, Standing Orders this proposed new Sessional Order it should be Committee, I am not •wing back on the p:eneral referred back to the Standing Orders Com principle we adopted-that was to make the mittee for their further consideration. I think time limit proposal a Sessional Order. I am pretty ne~,rly every member who has spoken going to respect the will of the majority; on the main question has admitted the prin at the same time, I am also g,ning to do my ciple of a limitation of speeches, very little best to get the very best concession we possibly reserve having been shown in the expression can from th9 House. of opinions on that phase of the subject. At Mr. J. M. HUNTER: Get a concession? the same time, we ,are frequently reminded l\.1r. MAUGHAN: Yes. that greater men than ourselves saw in their wisdom a better way of doing things than the Mr. J. M. HUNTER: Reduce the limitation. one adopted in this instance, a.nd I think I Mr. MAUGHAN: I am here to get the cannot do lcetter than quote what Sir Samuel very best possible concession I can- Griffith said in a similar caee in this House in Mr. J. M. HUNTER: Conditions. the year 1892, at which date that hon. gentleman was the leader of the Government. As hon. Mr. MA UGHAN: Conditions, or whatever· members will no douht remember, the Stand- you like to caJl them, from this House. It ing Orders whicb we are working is really not a party matter-it is not a Go [4 p.m.] under at the present time were vernment matter. The hon. gentleman at introduced by Sir Samuel Griffith, the hBad of the Government h&& no right, I and, in introducing them, he wound up by submit, with all respect-he has no right to movin.,, as reported in vol. lxvii. of Hansard make this a GovernmE>nt matter. This matter of 1892, page 951, the following resolutions:- belongs to the House---it is a Hous.e matter. 1. That the draft Rtanding Rn1es and Orders sub The PRE!I!IER: Hear, hear ! It should not mitted by the Standing Orders Commjttee. and laid be discussed at a caucus meeting at all, you upon I he table on the lnh of Jnly, be adopted by this know. Hou.<:::>e. Mr. MAUGHAN: The hon. g »peeches is a desirable thing ; but as my collea -The PREMIE]R: We have a Standing Or· gue, the hon. member for Ipswich, has already ders Committee considering certain amend pointed out, there· are oocasion~-especially ments of the Standing Orders, and the inten in connection with the consideration of Bills tion is that they will revise the whole of the in the second-reading stage-which justifies Standing Orders and bring them up for a much more elastic provision than that em report, and the House may then-very sen bodied in the present proposal of the Premier, sibly, I think-go into Committee and con and I shall certainly support an extension of sider the whole report in detail. time in a matter of that sort. Another thing, we Mr. RYLAND: Why not now? must remember that sometimes an hon. mem ber may carefully prepare, say, a one-hour's The PREMIER: And then we can get the speech, and in consequence of interjections, revised Standing Orders printed. -especially from the Ministerial front bench, Mr. J. i\1. HUNTER: Why all this haste? he is compelled to extend his spe Mr. BOWMAN: The object of those who Mr. J. M. HUNTER: It is certainly not have moved in the matter is to facilitate the so satisfactory, and opportunity is not given business of the session. There may be a to deal with the matter in a proper spirit. syndicate railway coming along. There is a \V e are entirely opposed to the forecast in the air that we are likely to have [4.30 p.m.] time limit suggested, and if we a syndicate railway, and we know what has were to go into Commit-tee the taken place on the dioDURsion of syndicate various amendments which ar(l i11 the ohands railways in times gone by. The object of the of hon. members would be Clealt with on Government is simply to curtail the rights their merits. If the proposed new Sessional of hon. members this session. They have a Orders are adopted without amendment, an very big programme. When speaking on this injustice will be done to hon. members sitting matter on Thursday last, I pointed out that on this side who are desirous of criticising Go there has been, with few exceptions, no long vernment measures. It is not to be supposed speeches from either side of the House. The that Government members wish to criticise Bills that have passed have gone through in Government measures the same as Opposition as quick a time as in any previous session members. They look on them with a friendly that I have been in the Chamber. It seems eye, and are prepared to let them go by the to me that the Hon. the Premier is altogether board to a large extent. I have very much unreasonable. This is a matter that concerns pleasure in supoorting the amendment moved perhaps himself at the present time in his by the hon. sen.ior member for Ipswich. desire to get business through the House, but I think he should look at it from a broader Mr. MACARTNEY (Brisbane North): I am point of view than that. He is there to-day not altogether out of sympathy with the as the leader of the Government, but no one amendment, because I look upon the proposed knows how long he may be there. He may Sessional Orders as seriously affecting the be on this side at some future date, and I privileges of hon. members on both sides of think the spirit which should animate hon. the House, and I think the matter j,s one that members in dealing wrth the Standing Orders ,should receive the very fullest consideration. is the spirit of fair play ; that we should not (Hear, hear!) I happen to be a member of consider what side of the House we are on, the Standing Orders Committee, though, un hut give ample opportunity for discussion fortunately, I was not present at the last without unduly prolonging the debate on any meeting of the committee, and I would like particular question that may come before the to take part in the discussion of the proposed House. I have n'1uch pleaf?ure in supporting amendments before the new Sessional Orders the Rroposition of the hon. senior member for go through; and I think it is convenient that Ipswwh. they should be discussed in Committee. I do IVIr. J. M. HUNTER (Maranoa): I do not not look on it as a party matter; and I would think there is a,ny doubt in the minds of hon. like to see a meeting between the leaders on members as to the necessity for some limita both sides and an arrangement come to for a tion to speeches. If the Premier was only reasonable consideration of the matter in Com willing to allow this matter to go into Com mittee. I do not suppose that a stonewall is mittee, as suggested, I believe that it would intended in connection with this debate. be settled very quickly. OPPOSITION ME~iBERS : No. Mr. MAY: We should have :lleen half-way Mr. MACARTNEY: It might, however, through it by this time. develop into that; and a common-sense Mr. J. M. HUNTER: It is only natural arrangement between the leaders of the House that there is some difference of opinion be would no doubt bring ahout what is desired. tween Opposition and Government members Mr. NEVITT (Carpentaria) : I am extremely as to what this limitation should be. Person sorry that the leader of the Government was ally, I am opposed to one or two of the pro not present to listen to the remarks of the posals submitted by the Standing Orders hon. membPr for Brisbane North. I may Committee. The time limit is, to my mind, inform the House that a suggestion was made rather short; hut the real purpose, as demon to the Premier, before the House sat to-day, strated by the Premier this afternoon, is that on similar lines to the suggestion of the hon. the Government have a desire to specialise member for Brisbane North; and, when that this session, and to gag this House for that term, at any rate. I do not know whether it was refused, one looks with a certain amount is held that this is not Government business, of suspicion on the introduction of these new hut it is being distinctly treated as party Sessional Orders. business. The Premier rather jocularly stated Mr. MAUGHAN: It becomes a Government that this matter was being made a party matter instead of a House matter. question by being discussed in caucus by this Mr. NEVITT: Precisely so. The last time party. I am not aware that this is the case, there was an addition to the Standing Orders nor do I believe that because it is discussed it was said on the Opposition side that the in caucus it makes it a party question. It is amendments had been discussed by the Go only natural, however, to find the Opposition vernment siJe before they were introduced, opposed to the privileges of the House being and a'terwards it was proved thB"t such was taken from them. the case; and I think we can look with the The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I same amount of suspicion on the present pro would remind the hon. member that there is posed addition. No doubt some of the amend an amendment before the House. The main ments will deprive members of this Chamber question is not before the House. I wuuld of theo opportunity for free and ample dis ask the hon. member to confine himself to cussion, and it will be the means of hasty the question-That this House resolve itself legislation, and is likely to have very serious into a Committee of the Whole to consider results. No one can say that there has been the matter. undue opposition to Government business this Mr. J. M. HUNTER: There are many session, because the two Bills that passed their reasons why the House should go into Com· second reading went through each at one mittee. There are a number of amendments sitting. I think that proves that we are pre to be dealt with, and it is not possible to pared to do the country's business, and that deal with them in the House. we are treating the business of the country Mr. BoWMAN: It is not so satisfactory. seriously. I am satisfied that the primarz [Mr. Bowman. JYew Sessional Orders. [23 AuGUST.] New Sessiunal Orders. 531 object of the Premier is to stifle debate, and Mr. COYNE: I was drawn away by the I do not think any hon. member should aliow irrelevant observation of the hon. member Standing Orders like these to be put through for Moreton. I do not want to see any mem without proper discussion. It has been sug ber, even in connection with this matter, lose gested that there is a possibility of syndicate his rights and privileges. l!'urther than that, railways being introduced this session; and, though the Standing Orders Committee re strange to say, when syndicate railways were commended these amendments of the Standing introduced in a previous session a new Stand Orders, they did not say they should be dealt ing Order was introduced to stifle discussion. with in the manner proposed by the Premier. That should not be. We consider that no It is for the House to adopt, reject, or amend matter what business comes before the House, them; and they can be best dealt with by we should have ample and free discussion as going into Committee. Bringing the matter long as we do not abuse the privileges con forward in this particular way is 'most offen tained in the Standing Orders. If the Pre sive to any member who has the spirit of rr>ier will accept the amendment, he will be freedom. As the hon. member for Leichhardt doing the right thing, and it will be the said a while ago, it is most irregular to deal means of gettin>r the business through much with a mimber of matters under one heading, more quickly than the attitude he has taken and we are entitled to have some reason why up to the present time. the ·Government will not agree to go into Mr. COYNE (Warrego): I am surprised Committee. I have much pleasure m sup that no Minister has got up to reply to the porting the amendment. arguments adduced in favour of the amend ment. The , Premier introduced this new Mr. FERRICKS (Bowen): I have waited for Sessional Order with the alleged object of some time to see if any reason was forth facilitating business; but, if he really wished coming from the opposite side as to why the to facilitate business, he would accept the amendment of the hon. member for Ipswich amendment proposed by the hon. member for should not be accepted by the Government. Ipswich. It is pparacteristic of the hon. gentle As no move has been made in that direction by any hon, member on that side of the House, man to bring forward som~thing to disturb what harmony exists in this Chamber, and he we must conclude that there is no good .reason has brought this forward in order to give ava.ilable. With regard to the proposal before himself an excuse later on, with his tongue the House, I must say that during the shert in his cheek, of accusing the Opposition of-- time I have been a member of this Chamber I have not seen any reason for the introduc The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I have tion of such a Sessional Order as that to which already pointed out, and I must again point we are asked to agree, and I can only assume out, the,t these recommendations for new that the Government have some ulterior Sessional Orders came, rightly or wrongly, motive in submitting the motion. from the Standing Orders Committee; and I would ask hon. members not to regard the The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The proposal as the action of the Government, but question now before the House is that the as the action of the Standing Orders Com House resolve itself into a Committee of the mittee. ViThole to consider the proposed new Sessional Mr. COYNE: I quite agree with you, Mr. Order, and I must ask the hon. member not to Speaker, that they came from the Standing discuss the principle of the motion, but to Orders Committee; but I was under the im confine his remarks to the amendment. pression that the Standing Orders Committee were instructed by the Premier, as hee,d of Mr. FERRICKS: I think the Government the Government, to deal with these things. I should agree to accept this amendment. It would like to know if the Standing Orders is a bit too much for the Standing Orders Committee, of their own volition, without Committee on their own initiative, or at the any instructions whatever, brought down these instigation of someb0dy else, to bring forward amendments to the Standing Orders. drastic proposals of this nature, and seek to Mr. NEVITT: They are the Premier's own mm them down the throats of hon. members. amendments. If there i.s no desire to stifle discussion or to Mr. COYNE: The hon. gentleman has re make this a party question or a questi"n in fused to listen to any amendments by saying troduced in the interest of the Government, that he is going to do it in his own way, and what is the object in refusing to allow the he is making Government business of it. The House to go into Committee, where the pro reason why I am supporting the amendment is posal can be discussed in detail? I submit beca,use I am not in favour of curtailing the that if there were any valid reasons for such rights and privileges of hon. members, That an obstinate refusal, the Premier or one of is what members on both sides should have in the Ministers should have the courtesy to give view-thaG no rights and privileges which they the House those reasons. We have heard no possess should be curtailed. I agree that any argument against the amendment, simply, I hon. member who abuses the privileges given believe, because there is no argument that can under the Standing Orders should be brought be advanced against it. We have been given to book. absolutely no reason for the attitude which Mr. FoESYTR: How can he be brought to the Government have taken up on this matter, book? and I say it is altogether unreasonable that Mr. COYNE: We have already a Standing we should be subjected to the indignity which Order by which the Premier or any other hon. the Premier proposes by his motion to inflict member can move that an hon. member be no upon hon. members. The proposal is nothing longer heard. more or less than " gag " ma.chinery, and the The DEPUTY SPEAKER: .Order! The Premier in effect says, " That is my proposal; proposed new Sessional Order is not before the take it. I will give you no reason why you House at present. The question is that the should take it." In my opinion this is " gag " House resolve itself into a Committee of the legislation purely and simply, and it has been Whole. I hope hon. members will discuss that introduced to enable the Government to escape question, a.nd not the merits of the main the odium of actually putting on the "gag," question. and if that be so-- Mr. Ferrieks.] 532 New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] :New Sessional Orders. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! When and given place to autocracies? Because little the proper time comes the hon. member may by little the autocracy have curtailed the discuss the main proposal, but he must now rights and-liberties of members of Parliament, confine his remarks to the amendment. I may as it is proposed to do in this case. I hope point out that the proposal in the motion is the Government will see their way to accept not a Government proposal, but a proposal the amendment proposed by the senior mem which has come from the Standing Orders ber for Ipswich, and allow a full and free dis Committee, and I ask hon. members to con cussion of the proposal now before the House sider it in that light. Mr. FERRICKS: I thought, and still think, Mr. RYLAND (Gympie): I am surprised that I am justified in referring to this proposal that the Premier does not accept the amend ment, because in dealing with the question in as a Government proposal. Committee we should be able to deal with it The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! far more intelligently than we shall be able Mr. FERRICKS: If it be not Government to do in the House. The disadvantages of dis business, why does i.t appear under the head cussing such a proposal in the House are ing of Government business? Why is it pro many. In the first place, any member who has posed by the Premier as the head of the Go spoken on the original question is debarred vernment? Why is it not brought forward by the Standing Orders from speaking a second by some member of the Standing Orders Com time or moving an amendment. That in itself mittee, who would have the common decency is a handicap. Another reason why we should to advance some argument in support of the consider this proposal in Committee is that proposal? I have no idea of continuing my it is another inotalment of the system of cur remarks on the subject; but I say, if the Pre tailing our speeches. If this motion is put mier refuses to accept the amendment of the through and made a Sessional Order without hon. member for Ipswich, that will show that discussion in Committee, the next thing we it is a Government proposal; and if we go to shall see is the application of the same prin a division on the question it will be seen ciple to Bills, and Bills will be passed without whether it is a party question or not. Later being considered in Committee. I maintain on it will be seen that this proposal has been that this proposal will curtail discussion, and introduced to play into the hands of the Go I see many objections to the proposed cur vernment--that it has been introduced in tailment of speech. I should like to move order to facilitate the passing of certain mea several amendments on the motion. If we go sures with the aid of the second edition of the into Committee there are half a dozen amend gag, in preference to the old-fashioned gag. ments that I should like to move, but I shall be debarred from moving those amendments Mr. COLLINS (Burke): I wish to say a few if the motion is dealt with in the House. words with reference to the amendment before Because the Premier will not allow us to avail it goes to a division. To my. mind, .this pro ourselves of one of the usages of this House posal is an attempt to curtail my liberty of and one of the usages of the British Parlia speech in this House, and also to curtail the ment, we shall not be able to move neci'Jssary liberties of the people I represent. T'nat is a amendments. The hon. member for Ipswich, thing which I must very strongly object to. in moving his amendment, pointed out that I do not think members have committed any Sir Samuel Griffith, when Premier of this crime in making unduly long speeches since State, agreed to a "similar proposal, and Sir I have been in the House. As a comparatiVely Samuel is the best constitutional and legal new member I, in common with other mem authority we have in the Commonwealth to bers, have endeavoured to put my views before day. As Chief Justice he holds the highest the House in a reasonable way, and I do not judicial position in the Commonwealth, and think any Government should attempt to take he has the reputation of being the first consti away from us the rights and liberties which tutional authority in Australia. The Premier members of Pariiament possess, and have may say that when Sir Samuel Griffith was possessed for a number of years. 'I'here has the leader of a Government in this House and been a curtailment, little by little, of the agreed to go into Committee to consider rights of members of Parliament. Standing Orders in detail, it was the whole of The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The the Soanding Orders that the House had to question before the House is that the House deal :-vith, but I contend t~at, leaving out should resolve itself into a Committee of the Stanchng Order 136A, there IS more curtail Whole to consided the proposed Sessional ment of speech proposed in this motion than Order, and I must ask the hon. member to was contained in the whole of those Standing confine his remarks to that question. Orders. Consequently, I think that, in fair ness to the Oppo-sition and in f.airness to the Mr. COLLINS: I was trying to the best of Government-for they will not always be on the my ability to advance arguments in favour of Treasury benches ; they will be there only till the amendment to go into Committee to con the members of this party take their places sider the proposed new Sessional Order. There they should agree to the amendment. The are several amendments that we are desirous iron fist which they now show to the Oppo o'[ moving and discussing in order to prevent sition may be used against them when in oppo undue curtailment of speech. The proposition sition if this Sessional Order is passed as it embodied in the motion is to a certain extent stands. I notice that the C'nief Secretary at to curtail discussion. Surely Sessional Orders that pa>'ticular trme wa.s the Hon. Sir Samuel which curtail the rights and liberties of mem Griffith, and the Colonial Treasurer was the bers should be considered in Committee ! Hon. Sir Thomas Mcilwraith-another man Surely no one will argue that everyone in well known in this House and in this country. this Chamber cs.n expound his views on an The Secretary for' Mines in that Administra• important subject in five or ten minutes! At tion was the Hon. William Oswald Hodgkin any rate, I am not prepared to vote for a son; the Secretary for Railways was the Hon. curtailment of the right of free speech in this Theodore Unmack; and the Secretary for House. How has it happened in ancient Public Lands was the Hon. Alfred Cowley, civilisations that Parliaments have disappeared who afterwards honourably filled the position [Mr. Ferricks. New Sessional Orrlers. [23 AuGUST.] New Sessional 01'ders. 533 of Speaker in this House, and whose decisions On the were practically submitted to on nearly every all and occasion; and who regards the present Stand because I m1ght ing Ordel'S as obsolete, and that this particular this occasion I one is an attack on the privileges of this Committee, for House. The Secretary for Public Works at that time was the Hon. Sir Horace T'ozer, practically a townsman of mine-(laughter) and who has since held the position of Agent General-:-the highest position in London. Surely that in itself ought to be enough to make the Premier agree with this [5 p:m.] proposal to go into Committee and let us have a fair and intelligent debate. 'The Solicitor-General was the Hon. Tho'1nas Joseph Byrnes, an Australian. fie was in the Ministry that allowed the Standing Orders to go into Committee and be discussed in detail. The Minister without portfolio-! am !Surprised that this last namB. i~ not th.e Hon. W. H. Barlow. However, It rs not; It is the Hon. W alter Horatio Wilson. Those arB the gentlemen who formed the Ministry at that time, and I think our present Ministry should follow the example set by a Ministry like that, and give us the opportunity of dis cussing this question in Committee. I am well acquainted with our Standing Orders, and I cannot give this question the discus sion I should like to·; and how about nBw members, who are unfamiliar with our Stand ing Orders? In fact, I notice• you, Sir, ha.ve put in use for called them to order several times already, correct? I leave it themselves to which would not happen when we get into Both are members the Standing Committee. Hon. members should have an Oommitte.e, and apparently both of these mem opportunity of altering the proposed Sessional bers came away from that me·eting of the Orders so as to make them more in keeping Standing Orders Committee with an entirely with the spirit Df liberty and order in debate. different impression as to whe>t was to he Ther~ is a good deal more I might say on this done. I notice that you, Sir, called an hon. questwn, but I do not want to weary the member to ordBr for saying this is Govern House, as I should like to see some business ment business. I do not wish to transgress done. At the same time, I am disappointed by saying it i'S Government business. I say at the Premier, who poses in this House and it is Standing Orders business, e,nd I am in the country as the democrat of democmts, going to ask the members of the Standing as the Premier of a progressive a.nd demo Orders Committee, Have thev givBn the Pre cratic country, and all that !Sort of thing; and mier a free hand to cram this 'down the throats now he will not allow this to go into Com of the Hou'l€ without any amendment? I am mittee. If it hacJI gone into Committee, it going to ask that question of each and every would practically have gone through by now. member o.f the Standing Orders Committee. We are tied up so now that we cannot get at the real question before the House. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I should be glad to know how the hon. member Mr. FERRIOKS: And they say it is not B> intends to connect his remarks with the ques party question. tion before t-he House. He is now discussing JYf_r. RYLAND : Yes. Why not go into Standing Orders. Committee, the same as on a Bill, and allow Mr. MANN: I am not discussing the members an opportunity of moving amend Standing Orders. ments, and the matter could then be reporwd to the House when we have had an oppor The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! tunity of dealing with it? I am not going to The hon. member was discussing the applica say any morB·. The Hon. the Minister for Rail tion of the Standing Orders. The hon. mem ways is democratic enough, and so also is the ber must confine his remarks to the question Trerusurer, and I am very sorry that the ultra as to whether this House shall resolve itself democrat on the front Treasury bench is not into a Committee of the Whole. in the Chamber at the present time-I refer Mr. MANN: I am not discussing the to the Secretary for Mines, as I am sure he Standing Orders. would assist me in this matter. I think in all fairness we should allow this proposal to go The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! into Committee. as we could then discuss it in Mr. MANN: Except the Standing Orders a far more intelligent manner than we are before us now, which I claim are open for able to do at the present time. discussion. Mr. MANN (Cair-ns): The amendment be Mr. BOWMAN: Sessional Orders. fore the House, as I take it, is that we go Mr. MANN: Because we are asked as to into Committee to discuss these Standing whether we should go into Committee in order Orders set before us by thB Standing Orders to discuss them and see whether they are well Committee, and it seems to me that I can enough drafted, and pass them en bloc, or give reasons for going into Committee or whether-- against going into Committee. For example, I. can go through this list-there are five The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! different paragraphs-and find fault with what That is not the question before the House. is set out therein, and give reasons why we Mr. MANN: Would you kindly state the should go into Committee and amend thBm. question? M1·. M ann.] 534 l>iew Ses.•ional Orders. [ASSEl\fBLY.l JYew Sessional Orde?'S, . The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The auestion refused to a man like Sir J osiah Symon, a 1s that the House should go into Committee man whose reputation and intellectual ability to consider the motion. 'l'he main question is a 'household wod all over Australia. Under Will come up for discussion later on, as the these Standing Orders, Mr. Deakin would get hon. member for Cairns knows. more latitude than would Sir Josiah Symon. Mr .. MANN: I am not discussing the main questwn. The question is that ~the House The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! should mto Committee to discuss this in Mr. MANN: I have not the slightest desire detail; " I take it, is YOJ!r ruling, Sir, and to run counter to the Chair, but I desire to fer: tnau '~ reaso;n I ~va~ ask1ng th.e Standing live up to the fullest limit of my powers in Oiders Comm1ttee. If ,hey had grven a free this House. h!'?d to the_ Pr:mwr to pass this en bloc, or OPPOSITION MEMllERS: Hear, hear! d~a they d~s:re tne Premier to have the matter d:scussed m Committee? That is the point I Mr. MANN: I am saying that under the am getting at. amendment I can discuss the whole of these things, and give reasons why we should go The DEPUTY SPEAIOJR: Order order 1 ?'he ~eport of the Standing Orders Co~mitte~ into Committee. IS be,ore every hon. member and that is we Mr. BoWMAN : And the restriction you are only docum~nt available. I h'ope tha.t the ho~. under now is the best proof that you should member wul not pursue the line of debate he do it in Committee. ls trmrsumg. It is unworthy of himself and d Mr. MANN: I have no desire to fight with IS met1 y unparuamentary. anyone-I feel too sad this afternoon-but I "Mr. MANN: r was told by one member insist on having my fullest rights as a mem o~. thee S~andi?g Orders Committee that the ber of this House. (Hear, hear !) If you wnoL of che Standmg Orders Committee were rule me out of order, and give me a good present at the meeting, and then the member reason for so doing, I will submit, but if for Brisbane North got up and said he was you rule me out of order and you are wrong not at the meeting, and apparently he does I will stand suspension. I will stand any not agree With the Premier in wishing to pass penalty you have "' right to inflict, and if you them ez; bloc Without disouss:on. He said so are right and I am wrong, I will apologise, only thrs afternoon, and I admire him for his but if I am right I will stand up for my courage. }t has been asked by the' Premier rights while I am in this Chamber. why_ we a:d not move amendments to these The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! Sess1o~al Orders, and the reason is that if we movea amend_ments rt may limit discussion. Mr. MANN: I have no wish to pursue this For example, 1£ I moved just now to alter half matter any further, because I am getting a an ~our to one hour-of course I could only bit warm, \out I hope the Premier will listen ~o It 1£. the present amendment were with- to the woTds of wisdom which fell from the ':t.Wn-lf I moved such an amendment then hon. member for Brisbane North this after ot.,er !;on. members getting up after m,; could noon, and allow this to go into Committee to not d1scuss the main question, and it is for be threshed out in detail, and then there that reason tha.t I am now pleading with the will be no necessity to puil me or any other Prhemwr ~o go mto yommittee and discuss the member up. :"· o1 e thmg m deta~r; and the reason is clear Mr. LENNON (Herbert): I rise for the mas~1Uc!; a~ m Co~mittee very often infor: purpose of supoorting the amendment moved mabcm IS g1ven whwh reopens the whole dis by the hon. th~ senior member for Ipswich, cussJon. _Hon. members will remember on whose sole object is to facilitate the full and ?ne o~cas.ton, when we were dis'"'ussino- the intelligent discussion of the proposal made by hours f~r carters, the Committee had p~ac~i the Standing Orders Committee. Now, as call{" fimsbed the discussion, and they intend~d this is only a Sessional Order, if we are satis· to Im:t the ho:'rs for carters and draymen fied with it we might try it as an experiment, ":~en It was pomted out that perishable pro: but I think it is a dangerous thing to rush dtlvt~ came to the Me!boume-street Sta.tion and establish precedents in the management at a,l hours. whiCh had to be removed im of the affairs of this House. Therefore, it mechatel:v to save loss; and that practicall:,. is very desirable that we should not put this re?pened the whole discussion, and the who!~ hastily through, but should have an oppor thmg was thrashed over again; and the same tunity of discussing it in detail in Committee, r.e~.so:n shotlld B,m;nate members in discussing and of arriving at a proper solution of what ~1s n,; ~et~Il. . It 1s a ;;ery serjous proposition. is necessary. The discussion whieh has taken ~ 01: e",a.np,e, If you wul perm1t me to mention place this afternoon will show that on all It, It ha;s been suggested that the leader of the sides of the House there. appears to be a great OpnosJhon-- desire that we should go into Comrnittec. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! For myself, I think it is desirable that it should bring us down a consolidation of Mr. MANN: I wish to say the leader of the Standing Orders--a full and complete the Oppos1hon should g-et more latitude-- report instead of this progne!ls Teport; but The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order! since they have brought in a progress report, I Mr. MANN: And if it is a fair thing- suppose that we can only deal with it by a,_n amendment such as tha,t moved by the hon. the The DEPUTY SPJ£AKER: Order, order! senior member for Ipswich, or by adopting the The hon: member appears to be desirous of suggestion of the Hon. the Premier and mov comi,nz, mto eo';lflict with the Chair, and I ing amendments on the proposal set forth, but sh~::~d oe s~~ry. 1£ he dc;es so. T_hat is not my that would obviate the desire which we have to de,Ir~. Th,,~e Is a speCific question before the get into Committee. I think that it would be House. and I ~annat allow him to discuss much more desirable to discuss it in Com amendments which have been voiced to some mittee. We ~;e,e how much hon. members are extent by the leader of the Opposition. tied un in the House at present; we Mr. MANN: No; I wa.s not dealino- with are li~ited so much by the rules of the th.e leader of the Opposition in particul;;:r, but House that we have no opportunity of dis w1th . a general ce"se. We will assume l'vir. cussing the side issues in connection with Deakm was the leader of the Opposition. He very importa,nt proposals submitted by the might get certain rights which might be Standing Orders Committee. I think the [Mr. Mann. New Sessional Orders. [23 AuGusT.] New Sessional Orders. 535 Chief Secretary would be well advised in the again up_on the main question. Then the ten interests of the House if he were to accept members who are left can move only ten the suggestions made from this side. This is amendments. That is the awkward position the .a matter that does not involve the dignity of House finds itself in. Hon. members on the the Government ; it does not concern the front Government bench should look at the prestige of the Government; it is a matter matter in a reasonable light, and allow mem that has simply to do with the privileges of bers full opportunity of getting in any amend members of this House, and already we have ments they desire. This mRtter was under dis sufficient of the gag and the guillotine, with cussion in 1892, when there was a proposal to -out passing hastily, without full considera alter the. Standing Orders., and, after four tion, measures of a like character. Now hon. members had spoken, it occurred to one as to the limitation of speeches. I suppose if I hon .. member that the best way would be to were to enlarge upon it, I would be told that cons,der matters in Committee. They pro I could not go into the general question at bably found themselves in the same difficulty all, and that I have to restrict myself to this in which we find our·selves now-hon. n1em particular amendment to go into Committee. bers who h Exactly the same thing applies in this case. The Chief Secretary this afternoon did not He goes on to say- raise that objection. He has enough faith in l remember one case in which the bon. gentleman the Opposition to think we are anxious to get himself, as leader o! the Opposition, led the members on with business in a legitimate manner; and stonewalling the vote o! £1,000,000 for unspecified as long a,s the Government proposals are fair railways. enough, and we get a fair, opportunity o£ member were to go into moving amendments, there will be no ob I have no doubt he could struction. amount of instances Mr. RYLAND: The Opposition on that occa Chief Secretary sion did not obstruct in Committee. a similar nature, the suggestion J\!Ir. THEODORE: No. The thing went occasion. Mr. through all the more amicably, and the result of his speech, was all the better for the Standing Order·J; and I think the same will apply in this case. the whole In conclusion, the Chief Secretary said- and the I am quite- sure the hon. member who moves the a time in resolution has no such intention, and I am therea the sake fore disposed, unless the House is of a contrary ought to opinion, to rtsscnt to the amendment; but I should say that I think that when get into Committee it will not be take all the rules Exactly that argument can be applied in this seriatJm. They in chP~pters, and in case-not from any selfish standpoint, but that way we can really debatable ones. with the desire to see the Standin'g Orders On the whole. really desires that made as perfect as possible. He says- we should not I am disposed to assent to the arrwncmcent. The rules get through far more quickly. Some objectionable rules are I think the Chief Secretary took up a reason like needles a bundle of hay, and surely the Government do not want to carry them able attitude in 1892; and I may say that in under cover of the more innocent ones. that year they revised the whole of the Stand ing Orders. It was all done in a short space Is there so of tin1e, without recrimination or accusations suits the n,w.enlrr I do not know whether that is the intention 'Mr. O'SULIJIVAN (Kennedy}: I am en- of the hon. member who moved the amend tirely in accord with the amendment moved ment, but I think it is a very wise provision. by the bon. member for Ipswich; and I While Mr. Salkeld was speaking, the Chief look upon the proposal of the leader of the Secretary interjected-- Governn1ent as being ineffective for the treat That would g·ive them to smile at us here; but though they to what is a fair and reasonable curtailment have the upper hand at present, they do not of speech. There are some of the propositions know what may happen, and we are willmg in this motion which are considered by mem to· give to members opposite what we are bers on this side to be rather drastic, and I trying to get fOl." ourselves. t,hink the best way to deal with them is to The PREMIER: Then it will not do us any go into COmmittee and deal with them in the harm. same way as we deal with the ciauses of a Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Not much harm, but Bill. There is no member on the other side, you will be squealing just the same. When not even a Minister, who has given the House they see the broad way we are looking at it any reason why the amendment should not be that we are protecting the liberties of the accepted. It seems that members over there whole of the members by asking that this be are all muzzled, and that the Premier has said discussed in Committee-they will rise up and to them, " This motion has to go through bless us when they are here in Opposition a as I have presented it to House, or not short time hence. If you snatch away the go through at all." That seems to be the liberties of the representatives of the people, attitude of members opposite. there may soon be a serious onslaught on the .t:-'\.n HONOURABLE JYIEl\fBER·: Except the men1- liberties of those whom we represent; and we should go into Committee to discuss these ber for Brisbane North. new Standing Orders effectively, and make them as good as we can. Speaking as a new Mr. HAMIL'I'ON: I believe the hon. mem member, I do not think I have trespassed on ber for Brisbane North, Mr. 1.nau,ar:cmw. the goochyill of the House, and I do not thinJ;: in favour of the an1endment, any member I have seen here has done so. l hear him speak, and while I have in the think it is the duty of any member speaking Chamber no member on the Government side on the business of the country to do so in the of the House has spoken on the proposal. It best possible manner he can, and, therefore, seems to me that they are muzzled. Neither I ask that we may be allowed to go into Com the hon. member for Wide Bay nor the member mittee so as to deal most effectively with for \Varwick nor any other memher is game these new Standing Orders. I think we have to get up and say whether they approve or dis shown that we do not wish to do anything approve of this pr{)posal. Why do not hon. detrimental to the progress of business ; and, members opposite get up and say whether they had the reasonable request of members here approve or disapprove of the proposal? If been conceded, we might have had this argu they approve of the amendment of the mem ment over by now. The country would be bene ber for Ipswich, let them get up and say so, fited, and I do not think there would be any and if they disapprove of it let them give their loss of dignity on the part of hon. gentlemen reasons for doing so. I think the proper occupying thE] Treasury benches if the Go to deal with this matter would be, not vernment accepted the amendment without bring up merely a progress report from the fllrther discussion. I hope they will see their Standing Orders Committee-- way to do so, and thac when we get into Committee those objectionable features of the The DEPUTY SP.I£AK.I£R: Order! motion will be amended so as to meet the reasonable wishes of members on this side of Mr. HA3ifiLTO N : I may be out of order the House. The whole matter can be more in referring to that, but I think the whole fully and effectively dealt with in Committee matter should be dealt with, and that we than in the House, and I hope to hear the hon. should follow the procedure adopted some members on the other side advocating that years ago, and go into Committee and con course. T'hey ought not to be silent when sider the Standing Orders in detail, not as one their liberties are being practically snatched proposition, as we are asked to do in the from them, and they should not allow govern motion before the House. The amendment of ment in this State to become what I may call the hon. senior member for Ipswich is a fair Cabinet government. I trust that we shall one. Even in the first motion there are three have the pleasure of seeing that they intend to or four diffe1'ent matters which should be dealt maintain the privileges of members of this with in detail, and we know very well that in House, and that we shall waste no more time the House a member can speak only once, and over the discussion of this amendment. The having spoken he forfeits his right to move country vvantE'l to see work done, and mem an amendment la,ter on. I do not think that bers 'on this side have shown that they desire the proposal of the Premier is a good way to to work. There has been no waste of time expedite the business of thE' House, and I up to the present, and there will be no waste think hon. members, opposite should r·esent the of time if the amendment is accepted in the ,attitude adopted by the hon. gentleman in same spirit in which it has been proposed. I saying, " You must be quiet; you must not hope the Government will agree to go into open your mouths; you must be ljke dumb Committee to consider the details of the pro dogs, and not express approval or d1sapproval posed Sessional Order. of the proposition." I hopQ the amendment Mr. HAMILTON (Gregory): I do not think will commend itself to members opposite, and the manner in which the Premier has received that it will be carried. the amendment is conducive to the expediting of the business of the House. The procedure Mr. FOJ~EY (Townsville): I have been trying proposed by the senior member for Ipswich is to find some reason why hon. members oppo the same procedure as was adopted by Sir site do not think it worth their while to speak Samuel Walker Griffith when he was Premier for or against the amendment, but I can find of Queensland a.nd introduced amended Stand ing Orders. There are a lot of propositions con none. There has been one exception in this tained in the; new Sessional Order that we are respect; the hon. member for Brisbane North, asked to agree to, and those propositions can Mr. Macartney, has spoken, but he is the only only be thrashed out in detail in Committee. member on that side· who has spoken on the Hon. members on this side of the House have amendment. shown that they are not against a curtail The PREMIER: You might explain why every ment of the length of speeches in a reasonable member on the other side thinks it necessary way, and surely we can differ in opinion as to repeat that. Mr. Foley.] .538 New Sessional Orders . [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. Mr. FOLEY: In reply to the hon. gentle amendment moved by the hon. member for man, I may say that members on this side see Ipswich. I am certainly of the opinion that the necessity of moving several amendments the means proposed by the amendment is by to the motion proposed by the leader of the far the best manner in whioh we can discuss Government. In fact, there are no less than the recommendations submitted three amendments necessary in the first para [7 p.m.] to us by the Standing Orders graph of the motion, and the reason for the Committee. A good deal of time amendment which the hon. senior member for has been occupied already since these pro Ipswich has moved is that in Committee we posals were brought down, and I am certainly shall have a better chance of bringing forward convinced that had a means, such as is pro those amendments than we should have in the posed in the amendment, been adopted at the House. If the House went into Committee earlier stage of this discussion, the debate there rvould be a better cha,nce of discussing would not have lasted nearly so long, and the those amendments. I feel sure that members probability is that the whole of the Sessional opposite cannot agree with the proposition Orders as submitted would have been passed which has been introduced by the Premier, in an amended form, no doubt. At all events, bec,ause they must know that the present Go the matter would have been finished and the vernment will not hold office for ever. There House would have been able to get on with have been changes of Government in the past, other business. It has been argued that there and there will be changes in the future. I is no precedent fo-r the cours-e suggested by the amendment, hut the hon. member for do not know how short or how long the time Woothakata, in the course of his very able may be when we shall see the present Govern speech, pointed out conclusively that there is ment party sitting on this side of the House. a precedent to be found in the annals of this They have sat here before, and there is no Rouse for the taking of the suggestions of the reason why they should not sit here again. It Standing Orders Committee in Committee of has always been the Opp<)sition who have com this House, inasmuch as in 1892 the whole of plained about the curtailment of speech when the Standing Orders were then considered in the gag has been applied, and when the party Committee, even although they were !first now in power axe in opposition thev will no introduced in the House practically in the doubt complain about the curtai,ment of same manner that we are asked to discuss the speech, especially if this new Sessional Order Sessional Orders at the present time. If it is passed; so that there is every reason why were right to discuss the whole of the Stand members opposite should state whether they ing Orders when they were being amended are in favour of or against the proposed new in Committee, surely it is equally right, when rule. In my opinion, the only way in which we have such important amendments to our we can get the question properly discussed is Standing· Orders as is proposed at the present by going into Committee. I certainly am in time-that it is equally logical to ask that favour Of the amendment, and I trust that they be considered in exactly the same way; members generally will see that it is a fair and if no precedent could be found for con proposal. As has been pointed out by several sidering the Sessional Orders in this way, I speakers on this side, there is a precedent for think this House would be auite within its what we are asking. In 1892 the same course rights in establishing a precedent as on a pre a;s that now proposed was adopted, and it was vious occasion. I have noticed in the course adopted by men who had been in parlis, of that debate that arguments were brought mentary life for many years, some of them to show that no prec.edent could be found for very good authorities cm constitutional law the course then adopted, but the wisdom of and parliamenta.ry practice. And if they con the House on that occasion went to show tb.at sidered the procedure a good one, then there the better way to consider matters of this is no reaso)l why it should not be a good pro kind was to take them in Committee of the cedure to-day. Every fair-minded man must Whole, and, that being so, on the occasion admit that in order to make this proposed referred to a pre,cedent was established. I am Sessional Order a8 good as we can make it, of the opinion that we should again, if it is it is necessary that members should have an necessary, establish a precedent to give effect opportunity of moving amendments. I there to the am"ndment moved by the hon. member fore urge upon all members the wisdom of for Ipswich, and tha.t the Premier and the accepting the amendment. If the amendment hon. members sitting- behind the Government ·had been accepted when it was proposed, I feel should be prepared to allow this motion to be sure that half of the proposed Sessional Order carried and the House go into Committee and would have been finished by this time, and the consider the rnanv amendments that will be whole business. would not have occupied more moved, wme of which have already been fore than a couple of hours. The proposed new shadowed in the speech of the leader of the rule js a two-edged sword, which can cut both Opposition. In discussing the proposals as we ways. It may out the Opposition to-day, and are asked to discuss them at the present time, if it does it will cut the Opposition in the we cannot give that full and free consideration future in the same way. Therefore, it behoves to the drastic amendments to our Standing Orders which are contained in the motion, every member on both sides of the Hous ~spokep_ to the main question, 1ve will not be in members to make amendments in detail to ~ position to move amendments, as has already Bills with the House as constituted as it is been pomted out. to ask hon. members to make amendments at Tli.e DEPU'l'Y SPEAKER: Order, order! the present time, and for that reason, if these I would ask the hon. member to connect his amendments to our Standing Orders are to remarks with the question before the House. be dealt with effectively, they must be dealt with by the House in Committee, for the rea Mr.. l\/IcLAOHLA_N: It is very necessary son that the privilege of members will be ex to bi:mg m amendments to this particular hausted in all probability before all the amend Stai:amg Order that can only be brought ments trmt they might desire could be made, formbly before this Chamber by having them and we are deaiing not merely with normal discussed m Committee. If we go into Com conditions but with conditions that may apply mi~tee, as has been suggested, we can take not only to the present but also to the future; eacn clause of _these proposed Standing Orders and, in addition to this, the Premier practi .as a separate Item, gnd discuss it in the same cally admits that the suggestions before the way as we discuss the different clauses of a House at the present time should not be made Bill , in Committee. T'o my mind this is part and parcel of the Standing Orders. If nothmg more or less than a Bill and a Bill he had thought so, he would certainly have about which all that need be s~id could be gone into Committee. He has not done so, zgid at the Committee stage. As I stated at and has admitted that he only wants to make the com!'1encement of my remarks, a good them a Sessional Order-that he only wants deal of time has alres>cly been occupied-! am to give them a trial-he only wants to put not prepared to say time has been wasted, them in operation and see how they work, and becs~use I do not agree with the statements that is an evidence that the work is not com made that we, on this side of the House waste plete. It seems to me rather unreasonable to ~im~? bec~use we do not. The time oGcupied bring what is practically a half-completed m mscusomg these matters has been consider work before the House and expect us to accept aJ::le,. but_ it has not been wasted, and I cer it without a free and full discussion in Com taimy thmk that even at this late hour the mittee. I think that is a very strong reason, ~remier should see the wisdom of withdraw in addition to the previous one, why the mg fron: the po~iti?n which he has_ taken up House should have gone into Committee at and he 1s practwal,y compellmg his followers the very commencement. ·while the time has to take up the same position-and allow the not been wasted, still, if the House had gone a-mendment .to be passed. We would then get into Committee at the commencement of the In.to OomrnJttee, and the amendments which will be proposed, I think, will be of such a business, we would have been able to get on nature tha.t they will commend themselves to with other business at the present time. Of that the hon. membe;s opposite, and will practically I feel quite confident. Then it seems that the be accepted without debate. In fact in some Premier has ta.ken up a particular attitude 'Of the_ speeches delivered by the hon. 'members and he does not care to recede from that Dpposite, we have had foreshadowed ideas attitude. The amendment moved by the, hon. which practically embody some of the amend the senior member for Ips·wich, 1Ir. J\faughan, mer:-ts which will be moved, so I trust the recommends itself to members sitting· on this leader of the Government will see his way side and also to me1nbers sitting on the other clear to accept the amendment, as I feel sure side, and I believe if they expre8sed their that when the House gets into Committee if opinions tbey would support the amendment. the Premier will permit that course to 'be In time•s !"One by, the Premier has a.dopted_a adopted, no great_ time will be occupied in similar attitude, to what he has taken ';'P this d1scussmg the vanous amendments that will afternoon. and has been some-,r;.rhat reluctant be submitted. to recede from that attitude, and yet when cir Mr. WINSTANLEY (Charters Towers): I cumstances have arisen which hav-e compelled should hke to make a few remarks on the him to do !lO, he has said that the stwng man amendment before it goes to a division and at was one who could bend without breaking. the very first I should like to say that the Now, I think he could recede without any " sweet_ reasonableness" of the amendment loss of dignity, or without any undue strain should have recommended itself, not only to either to his position as Premier or to his the House but ako to the Premier himself manliness, and accept the amendment, and let when we commenced business this afternoon: the House get to business. Whatever members I am well aware it is not within the province opposite may think about it, the duty of the of the present debate to discuss the main Opposition is to look after the rights and question, and I ha,ve no desire to do so, ex privileges of this House, and while there may cept . so far as to say that on the general not seem any neceseity a.t the oresent time prmml?le I think the House is agreed, and for introducing this question, wl;en they are what.,Is r<:;a.!y1 before_ the House at the pre placed in the Standing Orders we want to Be_nt oime IS the_ questiOn of method of dealing know that the liberties and privileges which With the Standmg Orders. The opinion has you, Sir, claim for this House at the com been expressed on this side of the House that mencem.ent of each Pe~rliament, are not in the best method would be for the House to fringed or curtailed. There is not a member resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on this side who is desirous of wasting the ar;4 deal w1th these questions seriatim, and time o~ the House, but we think it is our duty Wl!Il~ many arguments have been used and and pn;Ilege ;o see_ that_opportunity is given opi_nwns expressed on this side of the House for a £u1l and .1ree discussion on everv n1easure whwh: go _to confirm that view, I think the that con~es b~fore us, and vye want to ?e quite Premier hrmsel£ r-ave some cif the best reasons sure thau, nor on1y1 on ord1na... ry occas.lOll'S but why tha~ m;'thod should have been adopted. on extraordinary ocCasions, these opportuni He adn:ntteC! when he spoke that it was not ties will not be so curtailed that there -will not very wise, nor did he expect the Hou·se to be free discussion for every member. For pass these measures in globo, but he asked these reasons I think that the Premier might that the mnasures be discussed in the, House. well have accepted the amendment. so that the Everyone rmst know that that is not the usual House might have gone into C~mmittee to meth<_Jd adA~oted ill: this H;mse in dealing with deal with this question seriatim, and I feel questrons o~ f!~1s lnnd) ana, at the same time, sure that hDn. members on this side would have 1t would he JU't as reasonable to ask hon. Mr._Winstanley.] 540 New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. brought forth amendments and a.dduced argu The PREMIER: Because you would have ments for these alterations which would have nothing to say. (Laughter.) been sufficient to convince the Premier him Mr. RYAN: The hon. gentleman does not self, and the work would have been done much like it. I feel that in having the support of quicker than it will be done under existing the hon. junior member for Brisbane North conditions. I hope that even now, in the in we have the support of the most competent terests of business, the Premier will accept the man on that side of the House to speak on a amendment of the hon. senior member for question of this kind, and I think that the Ipswich. leader of the Government ought to shqw that Ivir. PAYNE (1l:fitchell): I am in favour of deference to the capacity of the hon. membe1· this matter being considered by a Committee as to give way to him on a subject where he of the Whole House. I find that in New Zea feels that he is more competent to judge than land the matter was dealt with in such a man he is himself. With these fe:w remarks I sha!I ner, and not decided in the way in which the resume my seat. Chief Secretary is endeavouring to do it here. Mr. ALLEN (Bulloo): I think the amendment The Standing Order will not affect me much proposed by the hon. member for Ipswich is a one way or the other, as I can say what 1 most reasonable one. and that if the Premier a short time, but I think it is was really genuintl in his desire to facilitate every member to see that the business in this Chamber he would see the of the representatives of the people reasonableness of the proposal, and accept it are not toJ~en avvay. I trust the Premier will see his way to decide this matter by referring at once. I make bold to say that had this amendment been accepted when it was first it to a Committee of the Whole House, con proposed we should have finished the discus sidering that New Zealand adopted that course, and as New Zealand is the only place sion now. \~T e would have had time to go in the British Empire which has adopted such through the various clauses of this Sessional Order. There is no necessity for any lengthy rules, I think we should act in the same way. discussion on any of them; hon. members· Mr. RYAN (Barcoo): Seeing that there is would have been prepa;red to vote and have likely to be a division on this question, I would done with them. But it seems to me that the like to a word in support of the amend- powers that be on the opposite side do not ment of hon. senior memher for Ipswich. regard this House at all as a deliberative It seems to 111e that the amendment only con Chamber. They look upon us as a registration templates applying to the deliberations of this Chamber, to simply put our seal to any pro House the same form that we apply to legis posal brought down by the Government. For lation that we pass through the House to my part, I will always make one to object to govern the country. Now, the procedure of such a way of dealing with public business. having a Bill dealt with in Committee is It is only reasonable to grant to those m em hers designed to have a free, full, and detailed dis who will be affected by these rules every cussion on every particular proposal in the facility to discuss the whole matter from Bill, and to enable every hon. member to have every possible point of view, to thrash out an opportunity of dealing with it. Now, what every debatable point in the motion, and come· is good enough and necessary in dealing with to a satisfactory conclusion. Some hon. mem a measure the government of the country bers opposite seem to think that anything the I think to be good enough and neces- Premier brings along is right, that there is sary for governing the procedure regarding no need for discussion, and that simply because the deliberations of this House. We have the he sa.ys it that is an end to it. That may be prooedent conc saying what he has to say, ev~n if it tak~s questions who require more than half an him a.n hour or two hours. Th1s proposal JS hour, and when the average is taken into altogether too drrustic; both for seoond-reading consideration, debates on the majority of ques speech&s and in Committee. I do not agree tions will not average more than half an hour. with the general proposal at all. I have no Tha.t hrus been our experi fair proposal. The Premier argued that half Mr. O'SlJLLIVAN: I have great pleasure an hour is sufficiBnt for a second-reading in supporting the amendment, and I might speech. say here that the only reason that has been The PREMIER : That is the New Zealand adduced by the leader of the Government and rule. those sitting around him in bringing down Mr. BOWMAN: The hon. member has these Standing Orders is that New Zealand altered the New Zealand rules in other re has got them. No doubt New Zealand can spects, and reducedJ the time. get along with Standing Orders like these much better than we can in this House. We The PRE:J:IIER: I am prepared to approach all know that the legislation passed by that them. House did not meet with any great opposition. Mr. BOWMAN: We are trying to approach Take, for instance. if a member wishes to dwell them by this amendment, and to liberalise the on that Mines Regulation Bill that was tabled proposals of the Premier. New Zealand is the the other day, and whiqh went through in one one State in Australasia which has a time night. All the work that we can put on that limit for speeches. . With rega.rd to the half Bill, that is under these Standing Orders, will hour limit, the hon. member for Ipswich has not make that Bill as good as the New Zea pointed out that the first fifty clauses of the land Act. I might say; when that Bill was Police Offences Bill would require a speech before the House on its •second-reading stage, of half an hour, even in the most condensed many of us refrained from extensively discuss form. I have in view another Bill, probably ing the measure, thinking, of course, when it one of the largest Bills we shall be called upon got into Committee, th~J,t we would have ample to deal with this session-that is, the proposed time, under the old Standing Orders, to make Land Acts Consolidation Bill. Would the a good Bill of it, but now we find that the Minister f01: Lands be satisfied with half an Standing Orders are about to be revised in hour for the introduction of that Bill? Could such a drastic form that we will not be able he do the measure justice in half an hour? to give that intelligent discussion which the He could not; and I do not think the House subject warrants. ' would expect him to do ·it justice in that The PRE1UER: This amendment will not time. alter that. The TREASURER: That is provided for in the Mr. O'SULLIV AN: Of course, the hon. next clause. · gentleman may quibble about this being a Mr. BOWMAN: We want to have some second-reading matter, 'but that does not alter thing definite expressed in this Sessional Order. the fact that he is about to undermine the powers of debate. in this House, and I object The PRBI1HER: Rurely you would not on to it. I support very strongly this amend every occasion give a man the same limit. ment to further extend the time to forty-five Mr. BOWMAN: I am not going to trust minutes, because you could not do- justice to· the hon. gentleman for an extension of time. any second-rea.ding spBech in half an hour. Perhaps at a critical time in the discussion cif As has been pointed out by the leader of the a ~ill, w~en ~he hon. gentleman is on his high Opposition, any member who specialises on anJ' stilts _ana rec.wns the time has come when the particular legic;lation could not do justice t now, I will take the full half an hour," when you, Sir, that this was purely a non-part,y otherwise many of them would only take ten question which was instigated by the Stand minutes. I myself only took about twelve ing Orders Committee, and that the Govern minutes on the Mines Regulation Bill, and if I ment took no responsibility. I ventured to say had had this whip behind me I would have the first division this afterr.oon would show that taken up the whole half-hour. I do not think it was a paxty question, and members came up it is good for debate to curtail any member to to the crack of the whip in a very humble a half-hour speech. Therefore, I have great fashion, in spite of the- fact that some of them pleasure in supporting the amendment of the had previously announced themselves in hon. member for W oothakata to extend the favour of the amendment. time to forty-five minutes. Mr. TOL1HE: What about the hon. membecrs Mr. FERRIOKS: While I intend to sup behind the leader of the Opposition? port this amendment, I wish to say that I am Mr. F:FJRRICKS : They came up to the opposed to any limitation of speeches. I sup call of their belief in principle. In my port this amendment as being an improve opinion it is not a good thing, fm it does ment on that outlined by the Government in not conduce to the proper- conduct of business the proposals which tj:ley have brought before in this Chamber when hon. members on the this Hou~e. I contend if there is to be any other side can be made to swallow their limitation, the most necessary limitation is a opinions just because the Premier wants them limitation in regard to the six months' recess. to do so. Now, on matters outside our plat form we have a free hand irrespective of the OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! opinion of our leader. Mr. FERRICKS: We have heard echoes The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I fail and re-echoes of the time wasted in this to see what right the hon. member ha~ to House, but during my short stay here-- deal with that subject. The question before The PREMIER: Will the amendment cure the House is that the words proposed to be that? omitted stand part of the clause. Mr. FERRICKS: The amendment will give Mr. FERRICKS": In endeavouring to show us at least opportllnity of expressing our that it is not a good thing for the House or opinions less curtailment. We have the country to have hon. members opposite curtailment enough with the six months' re swallowing their beliefs or principles as they cess, and the Govermnent, by this proposal, have done in this case-- is endeavouring to increase that curtailment. The DEPU'l'Y SPEAKER: Order! That If the Government in this connection insinuate does not -bear on the question before the or hold that there has been any waste of time House. The question is the extension of the in this HoWJe-during my it, inasmuch as I think there is no An HoNOURABLE MEMBER: Any member member in the House who repeats him- may move it. so much. Not that the hon. member re much time to say what he has gob :Mr. MANN: member may move own failings, he should it. This is the Parliament, and the to other hon. members. House has got on so without these Ses- sional Orders. I believe that the. Queensland An HoNOt:RABLE MEMBER: He is protected. Parliament holds the record with the South Australlian Parliament, for being the most Mr. MANN: He is not protected. The first orderly Parliament in Australia; but this pro paragraph of the rule reads- posal is advertising to the world that we eanncJt conduct business properly, and that the Premier must bring do.wn these stringent Standing Orders. You can forgive a member making a long speech when he does speak often. I speal< often, a..nd sometimes make long speeches; but the Premier has the power I do not think that the Premier has of moving that I be no longer heard; so I see rights than any other hon. member, no necessity for this new Sessional Order. happens to be moving a Bill, or gets mission of the House to occupy more time Mr. COYNE: I hope the good sense of than any other member. I do not sa.y the the House will agree to the amendment to Premier repeats himself because he cannot increase the from half an hour to forty- his arguments clearly, but he has a fashion five minutes. must be patent to anyone repeating himself in order to impress his argu that there are members who snecialise on ments on the House. He knows very well that particular subjects, and it is impossible to he does not speak very clearly, and he wishes reply intelligently to .a Minister on any great the H ansard staff and the Press gallery to subject in the space of half an hour. I do not hear what he says, and when he has made a think that the Premier, if he spoke his mind, point he repeats it over and over again would deny that. No· member of the Opposi make sure that his Press backers have got tion can kno,w the details of a Government exact words. Oth8r members may want to measure the same as Ministers. A Minister make their points clear, and they have not all in charge of a Bill is acquainted with every got the faculty to marshal their facts, but take detail long before it is submitted to their a more roundabout way; and, seeing there are own caucus. The Under Secretary and the so many silent members in the House, I do not understrappers of the department so teach think that, on the whole, in any debate there is the Minister that, though the •subject may be an average of forty-five minutes, or even thirty foreign to him, he is able to give it an intelli minutes, taken up by every, member in the gent interpretation. But it is >Sprung all at once House. Now, if the Premier will advance any on the Opposition, and you seB· the disadvantage reasonable argument why he has brought down under which an Opposition member stands as these Sessional Orders--if he can point out any compared with the Minister. I do not think stonewalling, or any lengthy speeches made on that even forty-five minutes is long enough to this occasion-members would be inclined to allow; and I think there is one reason why agree with him that it is wise to limit speeches. there ehould be no time limit to speeches. Thoul'h an odd member may speak at inordi But, suppose this Sessional Order had been nate length, there are membem who speak passed last session, we would have missed that only for a. short time. As the hon. member splendid three and a-half hours' speech made by for Cairns said, this will advertise this House the late Minister for Mines on socialism. as being so· unruly, and so given to speaking For about four hours the Secretary for Mines at inordinate length, that it is necessary to spoke on one occasion and told us that what bring down this Sessional Order. It goes to 1Ie saw out West reminded him of how the prove t_hat the _Party opposite are a party of patriarchs of old lived. If it is fair for a umficatwn. Evidently they are of opinion that Minister to make a four-hours' speech in the matt.ers to be brought down for discussion moving the second reading of a Land Bill, a are of so little importance that it is necessary Mihes Bill, ·or a 'Religious Instruction in to fence in the time in which members are State Schools Bill, is it not fair that the mem allowed to, deal with them. I say that is the ber whose duty it is to speak in reply to the best argument that can be adduced by those Minister should be· a.llowed to occupy the seeking to do away with State Parliaments. same time? The leader of the Opposition may wish to reply to the Minister ; but there are Mr. ToLMIE : There is a converse to that ·other members who may be experts in r-egard proposition. to the matter before the House. For example, An HONOURABLE MEMBER: What about your the junior member for Ipswich may wish to "VVhip "? speak on the Matrimonial Causes Jurisdiction Bill, but under this Sessional Order he can Mr. ToLMIE: 'What about your own .only spea.k for thirty minutes. It is a serious "Whip"? handicap for a member to· be tied to time, more espe.cially if he is of a nervous t-empera . Mr. COYNE': There is no converse. There ment. He may think he has spoken f?r half IS no doubt that these Sessional Orders are an hour when he has •spoken only ten mmutes; aimeq ~t the Opposit~on, whoever may be in and when he is' all the time watching the ?PPOsrhcin: When this proposal was brought clock he cannot make a ,good speech. If we m to hmit speeches to half ,an hour, it ap nave the gag and the guillotine I do not see peared ratJ:.er strange to me that since 1892 any necessity for this Sessional Order. For until !lOW 1t was not found necessary for the instance, the Premier can rise now and move Stan.ding Orders Comn:i.ttee to bring down that I be no longer heard. You may refuse Se~s:onal Orders. curtailing the right15 and to put the motion, but ah unfair Speaker pnvileg:es of members. I mentioned previously might accept the suggestion and put the ques that. this was a party question. Whatever the tion, and. if the Pr·emier had his followers Standing Or~ers Committee may have done, well under control, they would vote anything the moment rt was brought down here it was he liked to propo·se. mMle a party question. And we have beGll. 1910-21r Mr. Goyne.] 546 New Sessional OrdeTs. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. asked what about our "Whip." VIe are here very much the tone of the debate, which is to defend our rights as members due to the attitude assumed by the leader of [8.30 p.m.] representing just as important the Government. As a member cf the constitu plent,y of time at their. disposal for the proper -rules which are in existence in one of the consideration of certam busmess now on ohe most democratic Assemblies in Australia business-paper and also the E.stima;tes of the when a public wrong is to be ventilated, or a important departments--which !~r . years public grievance redressed, members can carry past has not received proper ven,llahon m on a debate for s1xty-two hours m successwn. +his Chamber-and other matters that may We once carried on a stonewall under our old " up for consideration later on. That con- Standing Orders before they were amended, me of the necessity which exists for and the present Premier, who was then actmg curtailment of debate. It h&s been pro leader of the Opposition, took part in that posed to limit the time for speeches. That is stonewall. But, as I have stated, in New the recommendation of the Standing Orders Zealand under much more drastic Standing Committee, of which I am a member, and I Orders 'than ·ours, membeTs carried on a agree to recommend to the favourable con· debate for sixty-two hours on a question sideration of this Chamber that in addition to respecting the payment of some money to a the half hour alrea.dy allowed another fifteen financial agent in London. minutes would be of advantage. I point out that it will not a.ffect the big majority o! Mr. HARDACRE: What is the good of them, members at alL There are a numloer of then? motions placed on the business-paper from day Mr. I have referred to day by hon. ':!embers;, and, durmg the na.rn.arnem:~r:v hand who course of their hm1ted t1me on Thursday regard to afternoons, they get in two or thre~ speeches constitutional some proposition, such as that mtroduced the hon. member for Jl,'[aranoa, for the the Standing amendment of the Agricultural Bank Act, or that of the hon. member for Barcoo for the HARDACRE: It shows that the Standing division o.f the State into three States-- do not prevent waste of time. The DEPUTY SPEAKER; Order ! Mr. LESINA: They do not prevent waste of Mr. LESINA: I submit I am quite in order. time. The tragedy of this discussion is that that motion submitted by the hon. m that makes a party paramount own business, and leads same thing. Mr. HARDACRE: That is not democracy; it is autocracy. Mr. LE SIN A: I do not care what you call it. It is an inescapable tendency. 1'he time of lackadaisical, go-as-you-please, -free and easy kind of debate in parliamentary business is departing for ever; and just as in all other very branches o£ public business men have dis I believe covered th,7 need for concentrated attention quarter of an hour Is not and time-saving methods, so must they do it a matter of fact, I do not see how any in Parliament. There is no time now for the member who does not believe in the limitation golden-mouthed oratory of men of the Demos of speeches can logically defend the extension thenes and Gladstone type. With the death of of a quarter of an hour, If an hon. member Gladstone, oratory passed out of British objects to half an hour, where is the virtue politics. That kind of statesman has departed in another quarter of a.n hour? for ever, and the tendency of these times is for Mr. BowMAN: Do you see any reason why men to -do business more quickly and speak a the proposed Sessional Orders should be al great deal less. I cannot say that I rejoice in tered? the new order of things, because I have been Mr. LESINA: I believe they might be bred in another school, but it is coming, and amended, and I 1vill support some amendments we must recognise the inevitable. Whether it later on. I mentioned one amendment myself, is going to do more harm than good it is and I believe the Premier will agree to that. impossible to judge at this stage. Later An HONOURABLE MEMBER: Did you ask the generations will be able to say whether these Pren1ier? restrictions on speech have been generally Mr. LE SINA: After the leader of the Op beneficial. But, judging from New Zealand, position had spoken, I was so impressed with where they have had experience of a provision the suggestion he made, that the leader of the of the kind we are now asked to adopt, and Opposition or his deputy should receive more from th~ experience of the Federal Parlia time for the discussion of public business 'than ment, it appears to me that a great deal of any private member outside the Ministry-I good wiil result from the adoption of a Ses thought that a very excellent suggestion, a.nd sional Order of this kind. I immediately made up my mind, if no one Mr. RYLAND: They have not got that Stand else did it. that I should move an amendment ing Order in the Federal Parliament. to that effect, and I asked the Premier if he did not think it a very strong argument, and Mr. LESINA: I know they have not. It he said, " I c1o. I am prepared to accept an is not there. I do not think any amendment to that effect." I will have great good served by discusing this pleasure in supporting it if it goes to a clivi from of view of our son. I believe, and every member in the One case was mentioned }:.y the Chamber believes, that the leader of the Oppo for \Yoolloongabba, in wh'ch he sition should have more time than an or was likely that under this dina.ry member. He has a big responsibility Order a longer time on his shoulders, because he may have to get a member than is up a' couple of times in an aft8rnoon and reply that is the case of to measures introdueed by different Ministers, ;,vich with reference to and, for that reason. I think the leader of the Bill. If that Bill comes Opposition should get more time than an sure thBre is n-ot .a member ordinarv membflr. Hon. members seem to who would not be glad to fear that this Standing Order will prevent member for IDswich on it for diseussion. It appears to me. there is no hour, if he ca;res to speak longer. In that case, under the provisions pro danger at all. If t.here was, I should not only [9 p.m.J vided here, which will be deter- oppose it now, but I would have oprJOsed it mined by thE> House, the member before ever it came here at all. I am inclined may be further heard for a period not ex to sunport it as it st.ands, and I trust it will ceeding half an hour, and he may sneak with pass in its present form. cons;derable profit to the House, aild I think Mr, MULCAHY (Gpmpie): I did not clearly he should be afforded that privilege. I quite understand the attitude of the hon. member understand that by passinr: this Standing for Clermont until he was just about finishing Order I shall depnve myself of tha.t right, his speech. and then he informed the House but I am of the opinion that I can deliver a and the country that he. had gone into a little muc-h more effective speech in one hour than conference with the Premier and he has fixed in two or three hours. Perhaps it may be matters up. I have had ~o sit anq listen to rather a late discovery, but I believe I have bim for four or five hours m a. mornmg, and I made better speeches in five minutes than ever shall never forget the way he used to hold I made in five hours. (Laughter.) Some forth as to the libnty of sneech and the cur hon. members appear a bit sore at the pro tailment of members' rh;hts and all that. ]Josition coming from the Premier, but they Apnare.ntlv as he gets older he i~ b.eginning ought not to hold the Premier responsible to think thot in the' past be' has mfhcted t.oo fo~ this matter-he is •simply acting on behalf mnnh on hon. mern1-..ers. How0ver. nothing of the Standing· Orders Cominittee. He is he h.s said will alt.Ar the opinion I bold. a.s one, only one of the Standing Orders Commit a.t all eve.nts, who has never taken up any fl'reat tee, and we beat hin1 on one or two occasions len.,.th of tin•e--n"YH more than an honr-in in committee, and he had to climb down, as making a sneeeh, I still believe that we should other members had to climb down on other ],.., verv c'1reful before we nut a time limit on motions. It was the Standing Orders Com tne spePches made horn. There are hon. mf\m· mittee which hon. members elected without hers who P"o very fully intn m~.ttf'rs. P listened to speeches in this House of an hour Mr. MULCAHY: Of course, he would; it is to two hours' duration, and have been very being done now. I am quite satisfied the much interested, and hon. members find, in whole thing is clone to prevent criticism on dealing with matters that they thoroughly the Estimates and other matters, to keep up understand, it is necessary that they should a lot of queer work that is being done. have ample time. But all along the line we The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! can easilv see the hand of the Premier in this mattGr. ':!;'or a number of years since the hon. Mr. HARDACRE (Leichhardt): I was one gentleman joined the Conservative party, it of the members of the Standing Orders Com has b€en his sole aim and object to curtail mittee which agreed to the proposals brought speeches and have short sessions of Parlia down. I did that because I recognised that ment, and do the work altogether by admin there have been occwsions now and then when istration, and it is the fear of having that individual members have spoken for three or administration criticised that is brmging four hours, and even longer, resulting to about this chan,ze. I am not going to la.bour some ext,ent in waste of time. I recognise that the thing. indeed I do not know that I should there should be a limit, at any rate, to that have spoken at all but for some remarks passed kind of undue talk. At the same time, whilst by the hon. member-I must use the term I agree with the proposal, I was not then, nor " honourable " because it would be out of am I now, in any way enamoured with the order if I used any other term-the hon. mem general principle of a time limit, because, if ber for Woolloongabba.. It pains me to have we are not careful, we are going to do more to use the wo1·cl " honourable," but still to harm than good. The real trouble is, not conform to the rules of the House I must do going to be avoided to any great extent hy a that. I am bound to say I have been think time-limit provision. It is true that. if we ing over that member's character for some have a fair mac' it has left no independence' at all in legisla an hon. member made a speech which is a tion, and I think that we should be very disgrace? I think you are the one to decide careful before we go too far in this direction. that, Mr. Speaker. I consider that the proposal to allow half an hour on ordinary debates is too short-it will The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not think prevent effective debate. What would have the hon. member was out of order. happened if we had had the half-hour limit Mr. MACARTNEY: I do not think my when the Premier made his great historical remarks were at all too strong to apply to the speech on the Constitutional question some personal remarks the hon. member applied to two years ago? It was ·one of the finest the hon. member for \Voollobngabba, or to speeches ever made in this House-at any his imputation iri regard to the introduction of rate the finest I ever heard in this House. these Se&sional Order.s. No more foul charge A really great speech could not have been could be made than that made by the hon. -delivered on an occasion like that if we had member for Gym pie; and even he, though this iimit of half an hour. accustomed to making speeches of that sort, Mr. l\IANN : It was very insincere. will admit, on reading his remarks in cool blood, that he had no right to make them. I Mr. HARDACRE: Never rriind what it am surprised also at the attitude taken up by was. Then again, how could members deal members opposite. The principle of these with such big questions, say, as the adoption Sessional Orders has received IStlpport from of federati"on, moved in 1900, with a time members 011 both sides; and at present it is limit of half an hour? Take the question of only a matte~ of the time to be allowed-the separation. I remember hearing the speech difference between thirty minutes and forty of Mr. Curtis on separation, and Sir Thomas five minutes. It has been suggested that this Mcilwraith's magnificent reply to the demand is more or less a party matter, but so far as for separation, which occupied something like I can judge there is not a scintilla of room two hours. If we are going to have a half for the suggestion. Last session it was pointed an-hour limit, we are not going to prevent out by the Premier that an amendment of the waste of time; what we are going to do is Standing Orders was fast becoming necessary to prevent big speeches on big occasions. by reason of the practice of making long which have previously been the most impor spooches whiCh prevented full discussion. Th!s tant speeches delivered in this House. We matter was referred to the Standing Orders are now following the example of New Zea Committee, and the recommendations we have land with a time limit, and even making it before us are the result of the consideration more drastic than it is there. New Zealand of the Committee without any dictation or is the only State in the British Empire where direction from the Premier or from the Go there is a time limit at all. So far, we have vernment. As a member of the Committ.ee, no report from New Zealand as to the work I am in a. position to make that statement. ing of the time limit. If any further evidence were wanted of the Mr. LESINA: The Hansard there is pretty position taken up by the Premier it was thick. offered bv him in reply to the amendment Mr. HARD ACRE: If that proves anything, now befo~e the House. The hon. gentleman it proves the absolute worthlessness of this distinctly said that whether it was thirty proposal. minutes or forty-five minutes he was quite The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: prepared to leave it to the pleasure of the Did not you recommend it? House. Mr. FERRICKS: Do you think we swallow Mr. HARD ACRE: No. I understood that what he says? I was supporting a resolution. to present the report to Parliament, nnt that It was a recom The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! mendation. The hon. member for Woolloon MACARTNEY: I know that if the gabba reckoned up the average time taken up makes a statement of that in my by the speeches of members; but I may point presence, I understand that I have privi- out that it is not proposed to apply this to the lege of voting for or again~t the question, speech of average length, but to the more irre,spective of party associations. That was important speeches made on particular occa the position, and there can be no room for sions. I may make a long speech on one the suggestion that this forms part of a party occasion and other members may make short proposal. If hon. gentlem.en on the other ~Ide speeches. On another occasion I may make w€re willing to allow this matter to go with .a short speech, and another member may make out continuing the course of conduct adopted a long speech. This will not prevent waste this afternoon, 1speaking one after another-if of time, but it will prevent members who they would allow the matter to a divi- know something of the subject from making sion after reasonable discussion, would a valuable contribution to the debate on im probably find supporters of the on portant occasions. This time limit will do the this side, irrespective of party. by the minimum amount of good and the maximum continuance of this discussion we ar·e pre of evil. vented from introducing other a:mendments; Mr. MACARTNEY: The speech of the hon. and I think before we go much further it will member for Leichhardt strikes one as some be found that members on this side have sub what extraordinary, considering that he is a stantial amendments which will show that we member of the Standing Orders Committee are not go,ing to treat this matter as a party and was present when the resolution was matter. Personally, I regret that there adopted by the committee. If it had come should be any necessity for these amendments from one who was not present at the meeting, at all, because I have a jealous regard for the one might have understood it. I think ·the privileges of' members, and I do not like to see speech of the hon. member for Gympie, Mr. our privileges gradually disappearing. Though Mulcahy, is one to be deplored, and I tl1inkhis a Government suppoi"ter, I do not see why I remarks were practically a disgrace to any should be deprived of the right of criticism; member of the House. and there are thitws done by all Governments which cannot receive the approval even of their :'1.1r. RYLAND: I rise to a point of order. own supporters. But we must all recognise Has the hon. member any right to say that that the liberty of speech enjoyed for so many Mr. Macartney.] 552 New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. .years has for the past five or six or ;>Bven years reading stage. We ha,ve some very important been very rnuch abused-to such an extent as legislation forecasted for this session in the to justify the proposition ',lOW before the Governor's Soeech. "vVhat hon. member could House. I have given the thmg very careful reply effectively to the Secretary for Lands on consideration since the disousslOn started, and such a measure as the Land Bill in half an hour? 1 think that with the provisions which are to Again, we are to have a Railways Bill, involving follow in regard to extending the time, the an expenditure of, perhaps, £5,000,000 or rights of members in this. regard will be suffi £10,000,000, and one man is supposed to d9al ciently protected. If a member is dBlivering with a proposaJ of that kind in half an hour. It rut important speech of particular interest, no has been stated that all he will have to do is to matter on which side, there is not a member ask for an extension of time. But see how it will who would not be prepared to allow him an prevent him doing justice to his subject in extra half hour. I think the privileges of debate. He knows that his time is nearly ex members are protected> as far as they can be pended and he has only :fi 1'8 minutes or so left, and in the circumstances which exist in the House be tries to rush throngh with what he ho,s to say, to-day, and I intend to vote against the amend with the result that he does not deal with the ment; m,t the same time, I am prepared to subject as be should. Under the circumstances, propose other amendments later on, and to even an extension of time will not meeb the case. consider other amendments as they ar,-, pro \Vith regard to the figures given by the hon. poood. member for "vVoolloongabba, they were based on Mr. RYLAND: I am sorry the hon. mem the assumption that every hon. member will ber who has just resumed his seat has non speak. Now, every hon member does not talk, the courage of his conviction•, and will not although this proposal will have a tendency to vote for the amendment? He has make more members talk, and members who do [9.30 p.m.] admitted that he does not think not know much a bout the subject on which they this is necessary. His inner con- address the House. "vVhat we want is members sciousness tells him that this legislation is not who have expert knowledge to expound their necessary nt the present time, and yet he will views in an intelligent manner. But this pro not vote a~ainet it. \Vith the hon. 'member for posal is going to prevent that, and that is why I Leichhardt, I think that it will bo "big mista,ke am against ic. This session the average time to pass this Sessional Order. It will sim oly mean occupied by members on the Address in Reply that we shall not get as good speeches a; we have was only forty-nine minutes. Some members got in the past. Great speeches b.y big- men talked more, and some talked less. Iri addition, speeches on historic occasions-will he a thing of we have pasHed the stc the second reading, we will not be able to get members on this side of the House, which is that expert knowledge and other information to perhaps not relevant, and which very often we enable us to make our protest here and puo it in can do without. (Hear, hear ! and Government an:intelligent. way before the country. I hope laughter.) I am not referring to any particular thiS House will accept the amendment. It is party in opposition, "s when meml:ers of the ~mly a reasonable one, as surely forty-five miautes now Government party were in opposition they IS little enough, Half an hour is too short a made long speeches, while members of the Go time altogether. You have ot!l the mMhinery vernment party remained in their plotces keep· the gag and everything else-and there is no ing a majority, and sat there all hours of the necessity for cutting members down to half an mornin?. hour. It is most tmrea,onable, and I hope this Mr. O'SULL!VAN: They are g·agged over there. House will reject the proposal. Mr. DOUGLAS :Yes, they are gagged. The Mr. DOUGLAS (Cook): As this is the first remedy for limiting speeches should be approach occasion I have taken the opportunity of expres ed frorr; a different standpoint. I would suggest sing my views to this House this session, I sometlung that is in the public mind at the think it cannot be alleged thott I am one of those present time, and that is in the direction of who take up an unnecessary length of time in aboiishing altogether our system of party debate. But there is no gainsaying the fact that government. there are many members in this House-parti Hon. R. PHILP: Abolish HCI/{/,sard. cularly members of the Opposition--! am not Mr. LENNON: vVe might if we had decent particularly referring to this Opposition, but newspapers. all Oppositions are the same-who take up a great deal of time in discussing matters in The PREMIER: 'What has this to do with the a uselei's sort of way. I am one who believes that amendment? the time has arrived when it is necessary to con Mr. DOUGLAS: The Premier is endeavour sider the means to be adopted for bringing about ing to limit speeches to half an hour, and there some different method of discussing matters of is an amendment to make it forty-five minutes, public importotnce in this Chamber. But I do and I wae suggesting that the matter might be not agree with the method adopted by the present gone about in a different way altogether, so that, Government in bringing forward this motion to if we abolished the party system of Government, restrict diocussio': of important matters, particu measures brought forward here would be dealt larly second-readmg speeches, to half an hour. with by all members of the House on their The question of limiting speeches, in my opinion, merits, and every member would have an oppor is a very debatable question altogether. (Hear, tunity for speaking just what he thought hear!) It is one which should be dealt with with and for as long as he liked. I consider very great caution, because these who have the that every member on every second reading privilege of sitting in this Chamber are senb should be obliged to give some reason for here to voice the opinions of the people, voting one way or the other. (Hear, hear !) to bring about matters of legislation, and to dis I would motke eyery member who has the cuss the administration of the country, and I privilege of representing the people in this think we ought to have the fullest opportunity House get up and express his opinions for at of discussing in detail everything that is brought least five minutes on every matter of public before us, either the policy of the Government importance that comes before the Chotmber, and that may be in power or the methods of adminis would allow him to speak as long as he liked. It tration. I would not for one moment agree to would be very much better for the country if we support this motion; and upon calm and de had the benefit of the expert knowledge which liberate consideration I have come to the con many members possess, and which they feel clusion that there is a different method altogether constrained to keep to themselves at the present than by curtailing the debate to half an hour or time, owing to their having to assist to further even three.quarters of an hour. The amendment the business of the Government., than to curtail which we have before us seeks somewhat to the length of speeches as proposed. There are widen the time which is to be allotted under many ways in which we could limit long this motion of the Premier's to three-quarters of speeches besides that which is proposed in an hour, and that will certainly have my support. the motion before the House. If we adopted If it is not possible to maintain to the full the the method I suggest, we would have no Address right to speak on all and eYery occasion to the in Reply, we should meet earlier in the day, and utmost extent, I shall do my best to increase the earlier in the year, and we should then have time from half an hour to forty-five minutes. ample time to discuss public business. Liberty While I take the opportunity of discussing this of speech is one of the g-reatest liberties we matter briefly, I think I can show the Govern possess as representatives of the people, and we ment a better method of bringing about some should be very careful how we curtail it. I did more equitable state of affairs than exists at not intend to speak as long as I have done, bub the present time in this Chamber in dealing I felt it to be my duty not to g·ive a silent vote with measures which are brought before us. It on an important matter of this kind. I shall is a well-recognised fact that the Opposition, certainly support the amendment, and, if it is not whatever party are in opposition at the carried, I shall do my best during the remaining time, are there more or less to oppnse the stages of the motion to oppose it in 8very shape measures brought forward by the Govern and form, and to maintain to the fullest extent ment. In order to bring about their desires the privilege we now possess of discussing every it often , becomes necessary to make long matter brought before us as long as we like. speeches m order to force home their argu We know very well that the Government have ments, and do the best they can to get brought this motion forward at this stage of the a majority, perhaps through the abeence of session with the view, later on, of gagging thoee who are on the Government sick. For through certain Bills which may be of a conten some time past I bave felt that it is necessary to tious character, and of saving them the trouble bring about a different system of discussing our of putting on the gag when the Estimates are public business. Many members sit behind the going through. It simply means that many mem Government who find themselves in a position bers will be depri vecl of the pri vi!ege of critici"ing of having to assist to get through public busi the actions of the Government when the Esti ness, and they feel obliged to sit there in silence li''l.tes are under consideration. My vote, there and listen often to a great deal of talk from fore, will be cast in favour of extending the time M r\ Douglas.] New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. from half an h0ur to forty-five minutes, and, if Mr. NEVITT: Am I to under>tand that I that amendment is not c&.rried, I shall do my am not allowed to reply to a remark made by a best to ;;et the matter referred back to the member on the other side of the House? Standing Orders Committee, or else to defeat it altogether. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, nothing of the kind. Mr. BOUCHARD (Brisba;M South) : I think Mr. NEVITT: I am replying to the state the speech delivered by the hon. member for ment made by the junior member for Brisbane Cook is about the best argument that has been South when he said he was delighted that these offered in favour of the motion. The hon. mem· resolutions were brought down by Government, ber stated that it is the duty of the Opposition and I think I am perfectly wHhin my rights in really to waste time. The Government bring doing so. On the other hand, the junior member forward certain measures, and the Opposition, for Brisbane North said he was more or less simply because they are in opposition, deem it sorry that it was necessary to bring in these necessary to talk in order to obstruct the passage resolutions. Some few years ago the senior of those measures. We have had an illustration member for Townsville brought in similar re during the present session of the manner in strictions on debate, and expressed a similar which time is wasted. During this session, as opinion to that expressed by the member for well as during the numerous sessions that I have Brisbane North. Thus we have two members had the honour to be in Parliament, there has on the same side expressing directly opposite been a lamentable waste of time. One hon. opinions with reference to the resolutions before member gets up and makes a speech lasting the House. The hon. member for Brisbane perhaps an hour. Another member follows and North also said there was no evidence of vies with the one who preceded him, and makes arrangement in bringing forward this proposal. a speech of an hour and a-quarter. Then another Still, as I remarked before, we can only judge member deems it his duty to vie with that hon. the action.s of hrm. members sitting on that side member and makes a speech lasting two or three by their actions in years gone by, hours. [10 p.m.] because WA have it in evidence that Mr. LENNON : Give us an instance. the last time these Standing Orders were discussed in this House they had been Mr. BOUCHARD: We have had many in discussed by members then .on the Government stances during· the present session, and I say side of the House before they were introduced the Government have done the proper thing in into this Chamber by the then leader of the bringing forward a motion which will fix a time Government, the senior member for Townsville, limit for speeches. We are here for the purpose and I think that is a very good argument why of doing busines;, and it is a lamentable thinp, to members on this side of the House should con find members taking up time talking trash. The sider that we should not have our liberties new Sessional Order will have the good effect of curtailed. During this discussion, practically causing members to compres' their opinions and only two members on that side of the Hou~e ideas into as few a words ~s possible, in order have taken any part or voiced their opinions in that they may convey them to the House within any shape or form, which shows beyond all the time limit. I am very glad indeed that the doubt this has been discussed in caucus, and a Government have moved in this matter, because resolution come to as to what they are going to I think it is high time that something was done do in this House, such as was done in 1900. to curtail a privilege which baR been exceeded Hon. R. PHILP : That is not true. and almost become a licer.se. I shall certainly oppose the amendment, as I believe that the Mr. FORSYTH: You discussed it in caucus. offBr which the Premier has made to the House Mr. NEVITJ': The hon. member for Towns- to allow the leader of the Opposition three ville sa,ys it is not true. A little time ago we quarters of an hour, just the Bame as a Minister heard him state ths,t Hansa1'd should be buried on the second reading of a Bill, is a good one. and done away with. I will give him one of the I think three-quartero of an hour will allow the reasons why he said Hansard sbonld be buried. leader of the Opp,,sition ample time for the On the 3rd December, 1900, the hon. member criticism of a measure, aud I am quite sure that introduced certain resolutions in connection with the House will readily afford :~uy member who is advancing arguments for or against a measure our Standing Orders. to exceed the time limit prescribed in the Ses Hon. R. PHILP: And I took the sole responsi sional Order. bility myself. Mr. N.EVITT: This debate has elicited some Mr. NE VITT: I do not say you did not tbke peculiar expressions of opinion from hon. the sole responsibility, but I say it was discussed members opposite. The hon. member who has by other members on that side of the House just resumed his seat stated th('t he was delighted before they were introduced. tho,t the Government had brought down these Hon. R. PHILP made several interjections. resolntions. 'vV e hoNe been told very frequently that it was notthe Government who had brought The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order ! down the resolutions. This debate between the hon. member for Townsville and the bon. member for Carpentaria 'fhe DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! The is entirely out of order. Will the hon. member hon. member must not take any notice of what for Carpentaria address the Chair. the hon. member for South Brisbane said. The Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee Mr. NEVITT: I am sorry if I have trans has repeatedly told the House, and other gresed, but, as I stated, we are somewhat suspic membero of that Committee have told the House, ions in this matter when we have evidence on that this proposed Sessional Order has been record that they were discnssed the last time the introduced on the recommendation of the Standing Orders were revised before they came Standing Orders Committee. I hope I shall nob before hon. members. I think we are perfectly have to m"ke this statement again. It seems justified in believing that. On the 3rd December, absurd that after I have made such a statement 1900, Mr. Chas. McDonald, as reported in Han members of a deliberative assembly should sard, said- persist in saying that the motion is brought Then somebody must De lying in this particular down by the Government. instance. [Mr. Dougla':. New Sessional Orders. [23 AuGUST.] New Sessional Orders. 555 He made the same statement as I do. He goes Orders had come up for diocussion since he had been a member of this House. It simply shows Here is the Norman Chronicle of Wednesday, how short is the memory of the hon. member, 21st November, 1900, which contains the following because it was shortly after the member for :paragrn.ph, headed "Our Member'':- Olermont came to this Parliament that a similar \Vriting privately to 1Ir. Mathers, our member, motion was moved by the hon. member for Mr. James Forsyth, says: "Re Railway Bills. I Townsville, and it resulted in the hon. member Tnay say that, even with the- clOture, we could not for Clermont being expelled from this House. J'OSsibly put through the private Railway Bills this One would have thought that a thing of that session. The Government, therefore, propose, on kind wonld have fixed it on the memory of the next Tuesday, the 13th instant, introducing a, resolu· tion limiting the time to each Bill. For instance, hon. memher. they will give, say, two nights to the Burketown The PREMIER : It was a common thing at that Bill, and, if all the clauses are not JJassed at, say, time. 10.30, the debate closes, and the whole of the clauses go through in globo. It is not expected, if this Mr. NEVITT : I am rather inclined to think works properly"-- that if the present leader of the Government had They evidently had some doubt whether it would his own way, it would be a very cJrnmon thing work properly, and they were discussing the de- even to·day. A good deal has been said about the tails- *- unnecessary time, or obstruction, that has taken " it will take more than nine nights to put the four place. In reading and looking up in connection }'rivate railways through. I will advise you by with this matter, I came across a discussion wire when the Btn·ketown Bill goes through. "\Ve which took place in the British House of Com ha,•e had s, very hard session-late nights and all mons, and to show you what they can do there llight sittings--still I feel I shall be amply repaid if I can get these two private RBoilway Bills through, in the way of obstruction, we find when the which. I believe will benefit the district so much. Criminal Law Amendment Bill was before the I propose taking a run up next year, when I hope House it occupied seventy-fnnr days in the to SGe all friends." House and fifty-four days in Committee. That That proveR beyond all doubt that the matter is on record ; and I say the Government cannot had been pcevious!y di8cussed. That letter was point out any one case this session where there written early in November stating that the Go has been any attempt at obstruction, and I think vernment vvere going to take certain action, and the least they can do is to accept the flmendment the,t action was not te.ken until the 3rd December. proposed by the hon. member for vVoothabcta. However,. I certainly intend to support it. l'lfr. FoRSY'fH : ·what on earth has that to do with the question? Mr. TOLMIE, who, on nmng, was received with Opposition laughter, said : Mr. Depnty Mr. NEVITT : To prow, as I stated before, Speaker-- that you discussed this thing in caucus before _you came to this Chamber, and have eo swallow Mr. MULOAHY: A race with the hon. member it and say nothing. for North Brisbane for a portfolio. (Renewed Opposition laughter), ·rhe PREMIER : ·wm a quarter of an hour extra remedy all that? Mr. TOLMIE : I wieh to make a few remarks in regard to some of the statements that have Mr. NEVITT: It is the principle we are fallen from the hon. member for Carpentaria in nghting for, and had you acceded to the proposi relation to the particular amendment before the tion made from this side of the House eeriier in Chamber. I would like first of all to support the day, I believe the whole of this thing would your ruling given on very many occa"ions since have been through and settled before now. The the debate commenced laHt Thursday afternoon, senior member for Toowoomba interjected-- that those Sessional Orders are not the work of The PREMIER: 'l'his is your revenge, is it not? the Government, but the work of the Standing Mr. NEVIT'l': It is not a question of revenge Orders Committee which was appointed by this as far as I arn concerned. It is very rarely I House. occupy the time of the House at any length. Mr. RYLAND: Are you ashamed of your The senior member for Toowoomba said members work? on this side of the House bad made this a p">rty Mr. TOLMIE: As a member of that Com -question. I give that a most emphatic contra mittee, I desire to state that these Standing diction, bec1use it was never made a party Orders were discussed fully by the committee, question in any shape or form. and they arrived at a certain decision, which is Hon. R. PHILP: Did you discuss it in caucus? now before the Chamber. In connection with any debate that takes place the lectder of the Mr. NEVfTT: Does that constitnte ita party Government, who has been accused of being the -question? :Y1v\ny things are discu::;sed in caucus. father of these Seclsional Orders, had no more As the hon. member br llockhampton knows, power than any individual member. things are discussed in caucus u.nd then me1nbers come to this Chamber free and unhampered, and Mr. MuLLAN: Do you think he inspired them? that is the fJ·"'ition to-night. (Government Mr. TOLMIE : The most powerful man in laughter.) The senior member for 'l'oowoomha the committee was yourself, Sir, and you had the we know perfectly well-in fact he has expressed conduct of the whole of the debate under your himself as being in sympathy with the amend control. ment, and he was also in favour of the amend Mr. MANN : Yes, but they were inspired. ment moved this afternoon, to refer the question to a Committee of the whole House, but did be Mr. TOLMIE : There was no inspiration at vote according to hi8 opinion? I..f o, the whip all. The me m hers of the c,,mmittee expressed was cracked and he had to go to that side of the themselves fully, and divided in such a way that House. And then they say we have made this a showed that they were ahS')lutely independent, party matter. It is only the members on that and were doing what they considered was the side of the House who have made thiB in any hest for the State. way a party question. 1Ir. MANN : There was a little caucus with Mr. LENNON: They have not come to heel the Premier at the end of last session. over there. Mr. TOLMIE : I possibly did not agree with Mr. NEVITT: The hon. member for Cler all the rewlutions that were arrived at-I me,y in mont, in speaking on this question the other some respects have desired to take a wider range day, said this was the first time the Standing of thought in connection with some of them- Mr. Tolmie.] 556 New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. but the Standing Orders Committee came to support it-so that they may get back some of certain resolutions, t>nd as a member of that thB rights which haYe been taken from them by committee I supported the resolutions when hon. members on the other side. I shall oppose they were finally agreed upon by the whole the amendment. committee, and I t>m here to support them now. Mr. OOLLINS (Burke): I may say here that If the Chamber in its wisdom sees fit to alter I am against any curtailmenf of free speech them, well and good. "\Vith regard to the state whatever, but recognising that to some extent ment made by the hon. member for Carpentaria this is the only way out of the difficulty, I shall tb,t there is a control of this side of the Chamber support the amendment. The hon. senior mem by the Premier making this a party vote, I ber for Townsville said, by way of interjection, desire to say that, personally, I know of no such "Abolish Hansard." I do not know why he is control. There appears to me to be less control so anxious to abolish Hansarcl. on this side of the House than there appears to be on the other side. There is a remarkable Hon. R. PHILP : I am not anxious. unanimity of feeling on the other side of the Mr. UOLLINS : It is the only means that Chamber with regard to these resolutions. members have of letting their electors know Mr. FERRIOKS : Hear, hear ! what they are doi The PRE1IIER: It was proposed to make it I entirely disagree with the ruling of the Speaker, forty-five minutes on the second reading of Bills, and I think that on reading the context he will and-half an hour was accepted. himself see that the amendment of the hon. member for Barcoo is in order. Mr. HARDACRE: No. What we have done is that we have decided that no member shall Mr. MACAR'rNEY : 'fhe argument used by speak for more than h.1lf an hour in any debate. the hon. member for Gympie is hardly logical. Now, we are going to propose some exceptions to The amendment prO]JOSed by the lion. member that. \Ve are going to propose some exceptions for Barcoo has been substantially discussed for in the rule itself. The resolution itself proposes the last two or three hours and has been definitely exceptions to what the House has already decided by the House. Tbe question which was adoptEd.. The hon. member for Barcoo wishes to discussed and decided was whether a longer propose some exceptions. period should be allowed to a member in The PREMIER: And the House has already debating any matters other than the exceptions refused to give another five minutes to it. thereafter expressly mentioned, and right through the discussion the question of the time to be Mr. HARD ACRE: No; it either limited it to allowed on the second reading of s~ecial Bills everything or it did not. was very much in evidence. Practically the The TREASURER : It says, "except in the whole thing was discussed, and it is perfectly debate on the Address in Reply, or on a direct idle for members to eay that it was not discussed. motion of want of confidence." The amendment really asks the House to say whether a greater amount of time shall be Mr. HARDACRE: vVe have not carried that allowed for the diecussion of a matter which the yet. All we have carried is the first part of the House has already decided should have a leaser paragraph-" No member shall speak for more period. It is on]y a waste of time discussing the than half an hour at a time in any debate in the matter. I think there can be no question that, House." Then the paragraph provides cer',ain the amendment is not in order. . exceptions. We propose to add to those excep tions the " second reading of Bills." That Mr. COYNE: I cannot agree with the hon. amendment is not excluded by the vote just member who has just resumed his seat. I con taken in the House. tend that it is quite within the rights of hon. members to deal with the exceptions mentioned An HoNOl'RABLE MEMBER: The second reading in the paragraph, and that they have a right to of Bills has been mentioned throughout the add to those exceptions. If it is right to except debate. one of these things, it is also right to insert fresh Mr. HARDACRE : If it was mentioned it is e4ceptions. not included in the resolution so far as it is Mr. MAOARTNEY: Except t.hat hon. members passed. All we have passed is the sentence "No have already decided otherwise. member shall speak for more than half an hour Mr. COYNE : The point of your ruling, to my at a time in any debate in the House." mind, is this: That this was decided The PREMIER: "Except." [11 p. m.] by the vote taken a little while ago. Mr. HARDACRE: Yes, "except," and I If that is so, why is provision made submit that we are absolutely in order in insert· later on for dealing with matters for a less time ing any exceptions the Hou?e thinks desirable to in Committee than what we have decided? include in the resolution. If the ruling of the There is another departure. Speaker is agreed to, then we shall be debarred Mr. FonsYTH: That has to be decided by tbe from including any other exceptions than those House. mentioned in the resolution. If we make any Mr. COYNE: It has to be decided by the exception at all, I contend that we are !tt liberty House, but it makes two exceptions, and it is to add to those exceptions. I therAfore submit quite within the rights of the House to decide that the Speaker's ruling is incorrect, and, with that other· exceptions shall be ins HoN. R. PHILP : Except on a vote of want or three-quarters of an hour. I argued in favour of confidence and the Address in Reply, when of a longer time to discuss reports such as the they will be able to speak for one hour. I hope forestry report, the railway report, and the edu the. hon. member for Barcoo will withdraw his cation report. I do not think that any member amendment. The hon. member for Leichhardt can deal with those reports effectively in half an moved to disagree with the ruling of the Speaker. hour. No one knows better than the hon. member for The PREMIER: I regret that the hon. Barcoo that it is quite correct, and you cannot member for Barcoo has moved this amend· possibly go over the same thing after the Honse ment-- decided by thirty-one votes to twenty-two that Mr. BowMAN: It is his right. they will not grant more than half an hour. The PREMIER: Which the Speaker has Mr. TOLMIE : I maintain that you are cor old him is not in accordance with the sense of rect, Sir, in your ruling, and that it can be main he Standing Orders, and I am trying to show tained by the Standing Orders. After the him my reasons why I think he does that. Sup- amendment of the hon. member for vVootha pose the hon. member for Barcoo is permitted to kata, the whole of the debate centred in one move this amendment and carry it, then it will question only-the second reading of Bills. The be quite competent for any other· member to leader of the Opposition a few minutes ago move that notices of motion and first and third emphasised that point. He went over a number readings of Bills be included. After two days' of Bills that have been read iu this House a discussion the House decided to keep to the second time, and the same line of argument was recommendation of the Standing Orders Corn· takeu up by almost every other speaker on that mittee of half an hour instead of increasing the side of the House, who supported the amend time to three-quarters of an hour. Hon. members ment of the hon. member for W oothakata. I know just as well as I do that there have only maintain you are justified in your action by been two arguments used against this recommen Standing Order 71, which says- dation of the Standing Orders Committee, one A question or amendment shall not be proposed from those who object to any limitation of which is the same in substance as any question which during the same session has been resolved in the debate, anrl the other that half an hour on the affirmative or neqative. second reading of Bills is too short a time. The hon. member for Gym pie pointed out that while Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It has been done before. half an hour might be fair enough on ordinary Mr. TOLMIE: The hon. member for Ken motions, for the second reading of Bills it was nedy says he has done it before, but he appears too short. The hon. member for Leichhardt, to be so wanting as to what is dne by members the leader of the Opposition; the hon. member to the Standing Orders tbat he is under the for Woothakata-·almost everyone who has impression that he ought not to be bound by the sppken with any attention to tbe real question Standing Orders. has specified the difficulty of dealing with those Mr. O'SDLLIVAN: I do not take your [inter large Bills on the second reading in half an hour pretation of them. Mr. HARDACRE: I never mentioned it; I Mr. TOLMIE: We are here under their mentioned motions. guidance, and we are only doing honour to the The PREMIER: Any member who has sat House in submitting ourselves to the Standing and listened to the debate could not help being Orders. It may be unfortunate that the hon. impressed with the fact that why more time was member's amendment is out of order, but he will wanted was to permit fuller discussion on the recognise the fact that it is substantially the second readings of Bills. same as the amendment we have been discussing GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! this evening, and, therefore, the Speaker is jus tified in asking him to withdraw it, or ruling it The PREMIER : But had the House any out of order. notion, when they would not consent to the Mr. MANN: I am sorry to disagree with the extension of s, quarter of an hour, that there was hon. member for Toowoomba. My interpreta to be an amendment to include notices of motion tion of the position the House finds itself in is and third re~tdings of Bills and first readings of this : 1'he House passed a certain amount of the Bills? Does not the Hou"e understand that if paragraph we are now dealing with up to half an you permitted that to go on you would simply hour at a time, and it was in the province of any be permitting onen and manifest obstructive hon. member to move an amendment at that waste of time ? • point, and to put in "in Committee," and it Mr. HARDACRll : Many members understood would read- that amendment wa"B going to be proposed after No member shall speak for more than half an hour wards. :at a time in Committee. The PREMIER : To permit such an amend But under the amendment of the hon. member for ment would be to nullify what has already been Barcoo, in the debate on the Address in Reply, done. It is an insult to the business intelligence or on a direct want of confidence motion, or of the House. One might as well say, "As vou on the second reading of a Bill, a member would non permit us three-quarters of an hour, would be permitted to speak for an hour. I we will now try if you will grant us an hour. I maintain your ruling was wrong, Sir, inasmuch am sorry your ruling, Sir, has been questioned, as the House has full pos?ession of the paragraph and I hope the hon. member will see the wisdom to make such amendments as it pleases, and if of withdrawing the amendment, and allowing any hon. member chooses to move that the words his fellow members to get to their little beds. " debate in the Hous'e" be deleted, with the view of inserting" in Committee," then we can Mr. O'SULLIVAN: I really think we are in discuss the whole thing over again. I maintain order as long as we do not go beyond "Address that that amendment will be perfectly in order, in Reply." Though the ~trgument was on the and that we can limit the half an hour speeches, intelligent discussion of the secm:id reading of a which the House has agreed to, to Committee Bill, I think it will be seen that to have over only, or to the Estimates. If that amendment is half an hour for the first reading would be what moved, I claim the support of all those members the House does not wish; and to extend the who are saying that we have decided that there time for leave to bring in a Bill to more than shall be more than half an hour given for second half an hour is not what we wished.. "What we reading speeches. I never agreed that we should wish is to give an opportunity of having it in limit speeches on the Estimates to half an hour the Standing Orders that the second reading of 1910-2 N Mr. O'Sullivan.] 562 Sew Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. Bills will be incln~ed in this exception; and I Mr, FORSYTH: But the House has practi-· think we are ent.irely in order according· to the ca!ly decided the question so far as second read spirit of the Standin;>; Orders. We do not want ings are concerned. Hon. members on this side to fritter away forty-five minutes in moving that a distinctly understood that the speeches of hon. Bill be printed, or that a Bill be read a third time; members on the other side wera directed to we want second readings specified in the excep securing an extension of time for the second tions; and I am sorry to say that I must oppose readings of Bills. That was the crux of the· your ruling. position; and do ~on. memb";rs opposite imagine Mr. FOLEY ('l'ownsville) : If your ruling is that the House 1s now gomg to change its agreed to, Mr. Speaker, what is to become of opinio·>:l? Let us hear some reasons why we· the amendment given notice of by the hon. should change onr opinions. I am waiting for member for Brisbane North in the next para an opportunity to bring forward some amend graph, providing that the leader of the Opposi ments myself to give hon. members some more tion or somebody appointed by him shall have liberty of speech, but I have not had a chance, the right to speak for more than half an hour? yet, there has bPen so much talk on the other The DEPUTY.SPEAKER : Order! That side, member after member getting up and question is not now before the House. repeating the same thing over and over again. I would suggest that the hon. member for· Mr. FOLEY: If your ruling is agreed to, Leichhardb should withdraw his motion. If then no member but the mover of the second it should go to a vote, I shall certainly support reading will be allowed to Rpeak for more than your ruling. half an hour. The object of the amendment of the hon. member for Barcoo is to give members Mr. BOWMAN: To listen to the Premier· the right to speak for more than half an hour and the hon. member for Moreton, one would think that the only question that had been dis <11 on the second reading of a Bill, but it does not follow that every member is going to speak oussed was the length. of speeches on the second half an hour. Since my introduction to this readings of Bills. Now, the amendment moved House I have noticed members speaking not by the hon. rnember for Woothakata was a more than fifteen minutes, or ten minutes, or question of time-the difference between half an five minut"S; and some members have not hour and forty-five minutes. There are other spoken at eJl during a debat.e. I feel bound to things besides second readings to which that oppose your ruling, because, if it is upheld, there applied, such as the report stages of Bills and will be no chance of providing in the next para several others that conld be ment;oned. Even graph that any one but the mover of a second if hon. members used the second readings of reading may speak for more than half an hour. Rills as an argument in support of a longer time· than half an hour, that should not debar the Mr. FORSYTH (ll1o1·eton) : I have not got hon. member for Barcoo from endeavouring to up to discuss the question, but the last speaker secure an extension of the time allowed for· stated that if your ruling is agreed to it will second readings. Standing Order 83 reads- keep out the am~ndment to be moved by the A. question having been proposed may be amended hon. member for Brisbane North. He does not by omitting certain words only, by omitting certain appear to understand that we have already words in order to insert or add other words, or by in· passed this half hour. serting or adding words. Mr. RYAN: Supposing forty-five minutes had Now, we have endeavoured to do that with refer been agreed to what would have been the result? ence to the first part of the motion-not in con You could take forty-five minutes for every nection with second readings only, but many thing. other things that are of just as great importance. Mr. FORSYTH : If every hon. member were Tbe SECRETARY FOil PUBLIC LANDS : Second going to spe"k forty-five minutes on the intro readings were practically alluded to by every duction of a Bill, and on the report stage, and on speaker. _ all the other occasions that were [11.30 p.m.] mentioned, we would simply re- Mr. BOWMAN : Supposing they were, does quire to have another Standing that deprive us of the right to add them to the· Order. These things are always formal. It is exceptions set forth in the motion? To hear on the second reading of Bills that the principal those who are supporting your ruling, Sir, one debate takes place, and that has been the would naturally conclude that the only question whole question that we have been discussing. that had been dealt with waR the second reading of Bills. The hon. member for Cairns referred Mr. HARDACRE : Thf! resolution does not say to discussions on reports. vVe get some reports so. that you could not read through in less than two Mr. FORSYTH : Does the hon. member or three hours. Take, for instance, the report imagine that the House is going to stultify on the Department of Agriculture. When the itself, after the discussion that has taken place, present Secretary for Agriculture sat on this side, when it was practically decided that only half an the hon. gentleman sometimes took two hours in hour should be allowed for second-reading discmsing that report, and he was always listened speeches? to with interest, because he understood the ques Mr. HARD ACRE : It is not a question of what tions that he was discussing. Although certain you think, but of what the resolution says. hon. members have alluded to second readings in Mr. FORSYTH : The amendment proposed support of the amendment of the hon. m em her for by the hon. member for Barcoo simply asked Woothakata, that should not deprive the hon. the House to stultify itself. I think that your member for Barcoo of his right to move his ruling, Bir, is absolutely correct, and no hon. amendment. I shall certainly vote against your member can show that it is not correct. ruling. Mr. HARDACRE : There is not a single word Mr. LENNON : I will only take a minute or about second readings of Bills in the resolution. two in what I have to say in disagreeing with Mr. FORSYTH : If the hon. member will your ruling. At a later stage of this matter I refer to the second paragra9h, he will see that it propose to a•k you to accept an 8.mendment to reads-" Provided that this rule shall not apply add the words hour and a-quarter or hour and to a member moving the second reading of a a-half, and I think those words would be perfectly Bill." admissible. Mr. FoLEY: We have not come to that para The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes, graph yet. on a want of confidence motion. [Mr. O'Sullivan. New Sessional Orders. ["23 AuGUST.] Questions. 563 Mr. LENNON: I submit that it is open to constitutional authority I have no he.qitation in any member of the House to alter the time in saying that he would tind that both the amend· regard to the last line. It cannot be arguPd that ment of the hon. member for '\Voothak:.tta and the whole clause has been accepted by the House, mine were quite different, and that the amend· because that has not been done. It has been ment of the hon. member for Woothakata could accepted to limit the general discussion to half have been defeated and mine carried. an hour, and then the exceptions are specifi. cally named, &nd we claim that we have a Question-That the Deputy Speaker's ruling right to include any further exceptions. I claim be disagreed with (Mr. Hardacre's amendment) to be able to move at a later stage that the time put ; and the House divided:- be increased to an hour and a quarter or an hour and a half, and I ask you to give your careful AYEs, 20. consideration in regard to this matter. Mr. Ailen Mr. Land , .Barber ,, Lennon Mr. RYAN: I regret personally that I have , Bowman , Mulcahy to support the motion to disagree with your , Oollins ,. Mullan ruling, because I feel perfectly certain that you , Ooyne , O'Sullivan , Ferricks , Payue have arrived at the decision you did in a perfectly , Foley , Ryan impartial way and with all integrity. , Hamilton H Ryland OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! , Hard acre , , Theodore , Hunter, J. lVf , Winstanley Mr. RYAN: I also feel that the senior mem· Tellers: Jl1r. Hardacre and :1-Ir. O'Sullivan. ber for Townsville, who rose to a point of order, · did it with all integrity, and that all his remarks NoEs, 26. were bond fide. Mr. Appel JHr. Lesina ,, Barnes, G. P. ,, Macartney OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! ,, Barnes, W. H. , Mackintosh , Bouchard ~~ Paget Mr. RY AN : I may also say that I think that , Bridges , Petl'ie all the other members who spoke on this question , Corser , Philp no doubt expressed their personal views. I can , Cottell , Rankin assure you that I listened to the debate during , Denham , Roherts the whole evening, and I had it in my mind to , Forsyth , Swasne , Grant , Thorn move this amendment when the amendment , Hawthorn , Tolmie proposed by the hon. member for W oothakata , Hunter, D. , lValket~ was disposed of. For that reason I refrained , Kidston ,, "Vfhite from speaking on that amendment, so that Tellers: Mr. Swayne and Mr. Tolmie. it might not be said that we were wasting time. As to whether your ruling is correct PAIRS. or not, I consider that the test is this : "What Ayes-Mr. Breslin, Mr. McLachlan, Mr. Murphy, Mr. would be the effect of passing the amend Crawford, Mr. Mann, and Mr. Nevitt. ment of the member for Woothakata? Suppose Noes-Mr. Fox, Mr. Jl.1:organ, Mr. V\Tienholt, Mr~ that amendment had been carried, we would Somerset, Mr. Gunn, and Mr. Grayson. have had the right to speak for forty.fi veminutes Resolved in the negative. on every conceivable subject that could be dis· Mr. FOLEY: Mr. Speaker-- cussed in this House. The hon. n;.ember for '\Voothakata's amendment was for forty-five Mr. MACARTNEY: I beg to move the ad minutes for everything, but my amendment is journment of the debate. only for one thing, and that for the second read The DEPUTY SPEAKER : It is manifestly ing of a Bill. (Hear, hear I) Unfortunately the impossible for the Speaker to catch sight of a Government side of the Housil are weak in member if he rises while members are standing constitutional authorities. I have no hesitation or crossing the floor oi the House after a division, in saying that the Chief Secretary, the Minister and on that account I missed the hon. member for Lands, and all the other Ministers were for Townsville, who, I understand, rose to under the impression that because the second address the House. reading was argned, therefore that was the Question put and passed. real iBsue that had to be decided. That may have been in their minds, but I do not con· The resumption of the debate was made an sider when I sit in my place in this House Order of the Day for to-morrow. that I am going to be bound by what hon. The House adjourned at five minutes to 12 gentlemen opposite may think. When I came o'clock. · into my seat in the House I saw that there was a motion before the House and an .amendment. I applied my intelligence to the question and I saw that if the amendment were lost a certain result would follow. I came to the conclusion that the amendment of the hon. member for Woothakata meant something. '\Vhen the hon. member for Leichhardt spoke on that amend· ment he spoke about the time required for a question as to whether we should federate or on a separation question, and he referred to the speeches delivered by Mr. Curtis and Sir Thomas Mciiwraith. But that hon. member did not refer to second-reading speeches at all. I thought the Government would be prepared to accept that amendment, but instead of that the Premier broke faith with the arrangement which he made to adjourn at half past 10 o'clock, and is prepared to keep us here debating a motion of this kind. I regret that I have to vote against your ruling because I always feel inclined to support the ruling of the Chair. I feel that if ~his matter were submitted to an independent ionol order, and it eloquence of members on the other side an must be passed without debate. That is putting opportunity will be given to members on this power into the hands of the Government of side to give expression to their views also. This which some hem. members may not be aware. I is not a party measure, but that is a sound want hon. membe1s also to consider what is thEt reason why intelligent men on this side will reason fer this Sessional Order. There must be fMr. Tolmie. New Sessional Orders. [23 AuausT.] New Sessional Orders. 557 some motive. No such alt(ration would be pro opmwn. I content myself with the few remarks posed by the Standing Orders Committee with I have made up to the present, and express the out some motive. hope that bon. members on the side who Tlfe DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I must have expressed their opinions already opposi- call the attention of the bon. member to thn fact tion to some portions of the r•ropos"l not do that the major question is not now before the as they did in the last division-express them House. The question is that the wvrJs ·• half selvee one way and vote the other. I ask them an hour" stand part of the question. for a fair and square vote, without regard to what the GovernmPnt may think, or what the Mr. LENNON : I wish to give le.tsons why Government "\Vhips" may threaten, and to vote we should have three-quarters of an nour rather honestly and straightforwardly for the amend than half an hour, and I say there there has been ment, and we shall carry it against the Govern· no reason why there should be any curtailment ment and the Standing Orders Committee. of the speeches of hon. me m hers. The Electoral Districts Bill, for instance, was discussed and CJuestwn-That the words proposed to be passed in very quick time. Then there i~ the omitted (lrir. Theodore's amendment) stand part Police Offences Bill. Could any hon. member of the question-put; and the House divided:- undertake to address himself intelligently to an important Bill of that nature and restrict AYEs, 31. his remarks within the limits of half an hour? Mr, Appel lVIr. Hunter D. , Barnes, G. P. Kids ton It is not possible, and therefore it is neces>ary ,, Ba1·nes, \V. H. ,, Lesina that there should be an extension of time. There " Booker Macartney is also the Local Authorities Bill-a most im n Bouchard , lliackintosh portant measure. JYiembers are asked to restrict Brennan , Paget themselves to speaking half an hour on the second , Bridges Petrie reading of an important measure like that. There ,, Oorser Philp ,, Oottell Rankin is also the Land Acts Consolidation Bill, which is , Denbam , Roberts a consolidation of the Acts and amending Acts , Forrest 8wayne passed during the last twenty-five years-we H Forsyth Thorn are asked to restrict ourselves to half an , Grayson Tolmie hour in speaking on such a measure as that. ,, Guun \falker , Hawthorn , 1Vhite The Minister for Lands himself must acknow ,. Hodge ledge that it would be utterly impossible for any man who considers him"elf an authority on land Tellers: Mr. Hodge and Mr, Roberts. matters to discuss so important a Bill intelligently NOES, 22. and effectively in a second-reading speech of half llir, Allen ~Ir. Lennon an hour. There are not many members who Barber , Mann consider themselves as experts ''n the land ques , Bowman , May tion; but we have some experts in the House, Collins , , 1\.'Iulcu.by Coyne , )ful1an and they reside chiefly on this side; and they Ferricks ,, Nevitt would require two hours at least to express them , Foley , O'Sullivan selves fully and effectively on this consolidating Hamilton ,, Payne measure. That is another reason why speeches Hnrdacre , Ryland should not be restrictei to half an hour. Take , Hunter, J. M. JJ Theodore also the Relhrious Instruction Bill-so called. I Land , \Vinstan1ey am sure many members would like an hour and a Tellers: Mr, Hamilton and Mr. Winstanley· half to discuss that Bill effectively. ln this matter PAIRS. members on the other side are probably making Ayes-1\:fr. Fox, 1\fr. Morgan, Mr. Wienholt, and ::Y.rr, a whip for their own backs in time to come. Somerset, The hon. member for 'J'oowoomba has put all the Noes-Mr. Breslin, Mr. McLachlan, Mr. Murphy, and blame in regard to making long speeches on this Mr. Crawford. side ; but possibly in the near future he may be on this side and be desirous of giving Resolved in the affirmative. vent to the natural eloquence with which Mr. MACARTNEY : I desire to move an we are so much charmed_ I have been in the amendment. I do not propose to take up very House for three years, and I do not think I much time. The amendment is to insert after have ever given reason for a proposition to im the word "Bill," at the end of the second para pose a curb on the expression of my opinions; graph-- and I can apply the remark to many hon. mem bers. There may be one or two cases, perhaps, Mr. Bowl'IIAN: There are two or three amend where members have vffended in some degree; ments before that. but it is not fair that seventy-two mem Mr. MACARTNEY: The following words: bers should be restricted and cnrtailed srmply or to the leader of the Opposition or any member because one or two members have offended in deputed by him- regard to the length of their speeches. I hope Mr. RY AN: I rise to a point of order. members will weigh that, a,nd not give a vote Mr. MACARTNEY : simply to please the Standing Orders Committee or any member deputed by him- or the Government. You have ruled, JY1r. Speaker, that this is not a Government measure; The DEPUTY BPEAKER: Order ! The but I ask to be permitted to say that though the hon. member for Barcoo. Standing Orders Committee made a progress Mr. RY AN : I have an amendment to move report, we see by the heading that the Premier before that. has practically put his imprimatur upon it, The PREMIER : That is no point of order at ail. and I hope you will permit me to say that Mr. Bowl'IIAN : Are you finding another form it is practically a Government measure. of gag? I believe, Sir, that, if you had time I10.30 p.m.] to consider it, you would see that, The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order ! once this left the hands of the The PREMIER: No; but it has to be done Standing Orders Committee and the Premier in the right way by Mking the hon. member for submitted it to the House, it practically became Brisbane North to withdraw his amendment a Government measure. However, as you have The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am ruled otherwise, I shall not ask you to alter your here to protect the rights and privileges of hon 1J1r.1J1acartncy.] 558 New Sessional Orders. [ASSEMBLY.] New Sessional Orders. members on both sides, and, when the time comes, Mr. RYAN: "I rely on the Speaker, and I am I shall see that the amendments are put in proper quite prepared to let him decide that. order if notice is given. · OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. RY AN: I moV'B the adjournment of the Mr. MACARTNEY: We are taking this debate. matter in the House and not in Committee. I The DEPUTY SPEAKER : It was the ex recognise that I would forfeit my right to speak pressed wish of the House, when the amendment if I were to sit down at this stage, therefore I am was moved by the hon. member for Brisbane only prepared to sit down on the understanding North, that other hon. members who wished to that I do not deprive myself of my privileges do so should move amendments prior to his, and, later on. that being so, I cannot consider a motion for the OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, he9,r! adjournment of the debate an amendment on the Mr. MACARTNEY : The amendment comes question. in at the end of paragraph 2, and it reads as Mr. RYAN: Very well, I shall go on with follows:- my amendment. I move the insertion of the or to the leader of the Opposition, o1· any member words "second reading of a Bill" after the deputed by him, to speak first in reply to such motion, word "Reply." I am well aware of the fact who shall each be at liberty to speak for an hour and that a desire has been expressed on both sides of a-half. the House to have a time limit to speeches. The DEPUTY SPEAKER : I understand Certain arguments have been put forward by that there are amendments prior to that of the those on the Government side that there has hon. member for Br"isbane North. been an average of forty-nine minutes to OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! each member in speaking on the Address in Reply. I submit that that is a fallacious The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The difficulty is argument. The fact that tbere is "'n aver that we are in the House. As there are prior age of forty-nine minutes on the Address amendments, they must be taken first, and the in Reply does not necessarily mean that hon. member for Brisbane North will be allowed the Government only intend to allow an to move his amendment afterwards. Of course, average time for speaking. We know that cer I understand it will not be taken that the hon. tain members occupy five minutes and some ten member for Brisbane North willlo"e his right of minutes, and as a rule meiEher,s on this side of speaking on his giving way now. the House occupy the time necessary for putting OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! before this House the views which they may Mr. R Y AN : I desire to move the adjonrn hold on any particular subject. I regret that ment of the debate. I have an amendment to the amendment was not accepted to refer the move prior to that of the hon. member for Bris matter to· Committee to be dealt with in the bane North, but I under·stood that this House ordinary way. Seeing that that was impossible, was to adjourn at half past 10 o'clock, and on the next best course is to endeavour to get that understanding I gave a pair to a Govern amendments which would enable members of ment supporter, and I remainded outside the this House to have an opportunity of expressing bar of the House on the last division, although their views on the second reading- of important it was half-past 10 o'clock. Is the Premier Bills. As the proposals stand at present., a mem going to accept the motion for adjournment? ber can only speak for half an hour on the second The PREMIER: State your amendment first. reading of a Bill. Why should I have to ask members representing other electorates for an Mr. RY AN: I moved the insertion of the extension of time to forty-five minutes? We words "the second reading of a Bill" after the should have more opporl>nnity during the second word "Reply." on line 2. reading of a Bill for expressing our views and Hon. R. PHILP : "\V e settled that question the views of our constituents, but according to with the last division. the proposals brought up here we are not Mr. R Y AN : In the orpinary course members allowed to do that. speak for more than half an hour on the second HoN. R. PHILP : I rise to a point of order. reading of a Bill, and this amendment gives I maintain that the amendment submitted by the them the right to speak for an hour. It places hon. member for Barcoo is not in order. We speakers on the second reading of a Bill on the have just decided that question. The amend same footing as speakers on the Address in mend is to extend the time beyond half an hour, Reply and on a direct want of confidence motion. but we have already decided that we cannot It seems to me that the leader of the Govern extend the t.ime beyond half an hour. ment wishes to embarrass me in some way or Mr. MULLAN : It didn't state what questions other, hut I am prepared to go on with my were confined to half an hour. amendment. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear! OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! HoN. R. PHILP : I maintain that the The PREMIER : In what way am I trying to amendment is not in order, and I ask your ruling embarrass you ? on the question. Mr. RY AN: I think the hon. gentleman The DEPUTY SPEAKER: In regard to the knows that himself perfectly well. point of order raised· by the hon. member for The PREMIER! No, I do not. Townsville, the House has definitely stated that Mr. RYAN : It was understood that this half an hour shall be the time limit for speeches, debate was to be adjourned at half-past 10 with two exceptions-the debate on the Address o'clock and on that understanding I gave a pair in Reply or a direct want of confidence motion. to a Government supporter, and although it was That was done with the full knowledge of the after half-past 10 o'clock I respected that pair. House, and I therefore rule that the point of Mr. MuLLAN: Perhaps he will accept the order raised by the hon. member for Townsville amendment. is quite good, and I cannot put the amendment Mr. RYAN: Will the hon. gentleman accept of the hon. member for Barcoo from the chair. the motion for adjournment? Mr. HARDACRE: It is entirely wrong. The The PREMIER : I am prepared to accept the half an hour was asked for some things and nob adjournment after I have heard your amend for others. This is a ·proposal to except some ment, which I think is quite out of order. . things from the half-hour rule. [Mr. Macartney. New Sessional Orders. [23 AUGUST.] New Sessional Orders. 559