Episode 8: Lioness Rampant, Part 2

0:00:00 Amy: While she's on a talk show, and then she has to act like that's normal. ​

0:00:03 Abby: When is she on a talk show? ​

0:00:05 Amy: So in the very beginning of the book, a kid almost falls into an alligator ​ enclosure, so to stop the kid from being eaten, she jumps in and acquires the DNA of the alligator, which makes it go to sleep, but everyone's like ‘Disaster Girl, she saved this toddler!’ And then, she's allergic to the alligator so she accidentally turns into an elephant in her house and her house just falls apart. And her dad works in media, and she's like, ‘You know what I wanna be on is on this TV show, where this famous person, who's infested by a Yeerk, is gonna try to get kids to join the Sharing.’

0:00:39 Abby: Okay, you know what, Amy, I just actually realized, you can totally talk about ​ Animorphs a ton in the next series.

0:00:45 Aurora: Oh, it's so true. ​

0:00:47 Gus: Oh yeah. ​

0:00:48 Abby: But maybe for now, we should stick to Alanna the Lioness. ​

[Intro music fades in: Greensleeves (a dubstep cover) by Zetta] ​ ​

0:01:08 Abby: Hello and welcome to Tortall Recall, the podcast where we re-read the Tamora ​ Pierce books and yell about them. My name is Abby and my pronouns are she/her.

0:01:15 Amy: My name is Amy and my pronouns are she/her. ​

0:01:19 Aurora: My name is Aurora and my pronouns are she/her. ​

0:01:21 Gus: My name is Gus, and my pronouns are they/them. ​

0:01:24 Abby: And we are back to discussing Lioness Rampant, which actually, now that I ​ ​ ​ think about it, not sure we said the title in the last episode, but that's what we were talking about.

0:01:31 Gus: Oh God. ​

[laughter]

0:01:33 Amy: Well... ​

0:01:33 Aurora: Whoops. It's fine. ​

0:01:34 Amy: They're not going to know which book we're referring to. ​

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0:01:37 Amy: There's no way to... ​

0:01:37 Abby: I think they'll figure it out. ​

0:01:39 Aurora: Oh yeah. ​

0:01:40 Abby: Our listeners are smart. ​

0:01:41 Amy: There's no way to tell. We didn't have clues. ​

0:01:43 Abby: It's not like it's in the title of the episode or anything. ​

0:01:47 Gus: What if they think we're talking about like, Animorphs number 12? ​ ​ ​

[laughter]

0:01:51 Abby: Well... ​

0:01:51 Amy: The Reaction. ​

[laughter]

0:01:57 Abby: No, okay. We're not... Despite all appearances, I'm sure we're actually not ​ talking about Animorphs number 12, The Reaction. ​ ​ ​

[laughter]

0:02:08 Amy: We could if you want. Send us an email. ​

[laughter]

0:02:13 Abby: No, but we're back into Lioness Rampant and we left in the middle of ‘Social ​ ​ ​ Justice Corner.’ So, let's get right back into it and talk about queer stuff.

0:02:24 Amy: Woo! ​

0:02:24 Aurora: Yeah! ​

0:02:25 Amy: So there's a couple of points where Alanna pretends to be a boy again, ​ specifically when they join up with Thayet and Buri, and she gets so excited to pretend...

0:02:35 Aurora: Yeah! ​

0:02:35 Amy: ...to dress as a boy and I'm really... It just makes me really happy that she ​ gets to have that time.

0:02:41 Abby: Well, sometimes she pretends to be a boy and so, a lot of the time she just ​ dresses the way she wants to, and gets read as a boy.

0:02:49 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:02:50 Aurora: I like how comfortable she is now with... Like she can present a bunch of ​ different ways and she's really comfortable with all of these, so she'll... She's okay wearing dresses, she is okay with her really beautiful thing that she wears to the...that Thayet designed, that she wears to the presentation of the Jewel.

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0:03:13 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:03:13 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:03:17 Aurora: ...I think it's wonderful that she's really coming into herself and doing what ​ she wants in terms of how she portrays herself to the world and like, she's really okay with this, and yeah. I love it to the depths of my heart.

0:03:30 Gus: Love it. ​

0:03:32 Abby: Yeah, the fact that... Oh, you go, Gus. ​

0:03:35 Gus: I was just going to say there was a part, fairly early on, when some woman is ​ flirting with Liam and Alanna gets super jealous and then we get our first actual reference to queerness in this series.

0:03:46 Abby: An acknowledgement that queerness exists. ​

0:03:50 Gus: Of course, reference... Yeah, and, what does the woman say? She says like... ​

0:03:55 Abby: Just like, ‘Oh the boy is in love with you.’ ​

0:03:57 Gus: ‘Oh so the boy's in love with you then?’ Yeah. And it's like, wow, I guess this ​ isn't an actual instance of queerness but like...

0:04:04 Abby: No, it's ridiculous that we have gotten an acknowledgement that boys can be ​ in love with other boys, but not in a situation where that's actually happening.

0:04:13 Amy: I don't wanna be this person, but I did read it as like a sort of, ‘Boys can't be in ​ love with other boys, so I'm going to diminish your emotions by saying this thing that's like an insult to you.’

0:04:27 Abby: I mean, I definitely think it was supposed to be somewhat insulting, but it was ​ acknowledging that the possibility is there that a boy could be in love with a boy.

0:04:37 Gus: Oh man. Yet again, our bar is so low. ​

[laughter]

0:04:38 Amy: Yeah, like I... I don't know, I kind of read it as like, ‘What are you even... Why ​ would you have a stake in this? Like, let me point out how ridiculous you sound by saying this,’ so I don't think this is like a queer championing you know.

[laughter]

0:04:54 Gus: No, no. ​

0:04:54 Abby: I guess you could read it as like, you know, ‘What, the boy is in love with you? ​ That's totally ridiculous. That would never happen.’

0:05:02 Amy: Yeah. And like again, I don't wanna be that person right now, but like also, I ​ don't want to give credit where none is deserved.

0:05:08 Gus: Absolutely. ​

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0:05:10 Abby: I can't I can't tell. I mean, you know, death of the author, it could go either ​ way, but I can't actually tell what she intended there.

0:05:16 Aurora: Same. ​

0:05:17 Gus: And I think, regardless of what either the intent is or the outcome is, like you ​ no matter how you're reading it, it's still not great.

0:05:26 Abby: No, of course, not. ​

0:05:26 Gus: Like, at no point is there any sort of like, ‘Wow, this is actually a good step.’ I ​ just like, I wanted to point out that it had been technically acknowledged.

0:05:34 Abby: Yeah, here it is. Alanna finally learned that queer people exist. ​

[laughter]

0:05:40 Amy: Yeah, and like someone... Yeah, I think someone pointed out that Thom is like ​ her twin brother...

0:05:47 Abby: Yeah, who is very gay. ​

0:05:48 Amy: Who is like canonically gay but... ​

0:05:50 Gus: Oh my god, he is so gay. ​

0:05:50 Amy: That doesn't mean Alanna knows. ​

0:05:52 Gus: No. ​

0:05:52 Abby: Depending on your definition of ‘canonically.’ ​

0:05:54 Amy: Well, sorry, extra canonically. ​

0:05:56 Aurora: Extra. ​

0:05:57 Abby: Yeah, ‘Word of God.’ ​

0:05:58 Gus: Meta canonically? Yes. ​

0:06:00 Amy: Yes. But like the I... There are a lot of people who don't realize that people in ​ their family are queer, so like...

0:06:06 Abby: True but also... ​

0:06:06 Gus: Oh yeah. ​

0:06:07 Abby: I mean, as we've... As we mentioned in the last episode, everyone in this ​ universe, except for Jon is queer, so Alanna is definitely also queer.

0:06:16 Aurora: [singing] It's true. ​ ​

0:06:16 Amy: That's true. Yeah. ​

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0:06:18 Gus: Yes. ​

0:06:19 Aurora: I do... I have a question about that. Liam. ​

0:06:23 Amy: Bi. ​

0:06:24 Aurora: The're... Yeah, I think so too! Do you remember when he says... They were ​ talking about Roger.

0:06:31 Abby: Yeah. No and he like... ​

0:06:31 Aurora: And he said that he'd met him once. ​

0:06:32 Abby: ...looks off into the distance and he's like, “I met him once." ​

0:06:33 Aurora: And his eyes turned this like, pale green. ​

0:06:35 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:06:36 Aurora: I'm like, oh did you now? ​

0:06:38 Amy: And pale green is when he's flirting. ​

0:06:42 Abby: Yeah. ​

[laughter]

0:06:44 Abby: So Liam and Roger had slept together. It's canon. ​

0:06:47 Aurora: Yeah. [laughter] There we go. ​ ​ ​

0:06:48 Gus: Jesus Christ! ​

[laughter]

0:06:52 Aurora: I mean, at least the age gap there is... ​

0:06:54 Abby: Better. ​

0:06:54 Aurora: Probably not that much, is it? Yeah. Much better. ​

0:06:56 Abby: No. I think it's probably not not. ​

0:06:56 Gus: Oh man! ​

0:06:57 Abby: I don't know. I don't know if we have exact information on how old Roger is, ​ but he's not old. He's like in his 30s probably, right? Which Liam also is.

0:07:06 Aurora: Yeah. As is, yeah. ​

0:07:07 Amy: I can accept that as a ship honestly, in a way that I can’t accept Thom and ​ Roger.

0:07:10 Gus: Yeah. ​

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0:07:12 Amy: I don't think it's a good ship, but I can accept it. ​

0:07:14 Abby: Well, Thom and Roger is like... ​

0:07:16 Amy: Messed up. ​

0:07:18 Abby: It's bad, yeah I know. I mean, it's all about Roger just manipulating him. ​

0:07:21 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:07:22 Gus: Okay. Can we talk about like, the degree to which that is not canon, but the ​ degree to which that is a thing?

0:07:31 Abby: Thom and Roger? ​

0:07:31 Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

0:07:33 Gus: Yes. Is it at all present in the narrative? ​

0:07:36 Abby: I mean at... What I would say is that, both actually Thom and Alex have ​ technically, I guess, canon motivation for hanging around Roger without introducing queerness into it, but both of them have like very sort of weak reasons for doing that, in my opinion at least, like there's... You know, Thom got manipulated into bringing Roger back but there's no reason that they have to spend all this time together afterwards, but they do. Thom says like, ‘I'm not your keeper or your jailer’ but then he and Roger just hang out all the time and Thom is not a villain at any point, like he's not at any point, working with Roger to bring down Jon or the kingdom or anything. So the only real queerness I see there, I guess, is that the narrative doesn't make sense if there's not some connection between them, and same with Alex, I think, because you get the motivation I guess that he just really wants to duel Alanna again.

0:08:43 Aurora: Yeah. ​

[laughter]

0:08:45 Abby: But there's so much of, you know, Roger saying like, ‘And you, my squire, ​ what do you get out of this?’ And, Alex like, looks him in the eyes really intensely and like, bows to him and he's like, ‘You can guess what I want.’

0:09:01 Amy: Yeah, what did he want? ​

0:09:02 Aurora: That was so vague. ​

[laughter]

0:09:04 Amy: Like, what did he want? ​

0:09:06 Aurora: Was it like power in the kingdom? Was it something else? Like I don't know. ​

0:09:10 Abby: Well no, I don't think so because Alex knows that Roger... Like he says later, ​ you know, people like Delia who are doing this to get power are gonna be disappointed.

0:09:19 Aurora: That's true. ​

0:09:20 Amy: Yeah, so like, I really did just read it as like a weird sort of like, almost queer, ​ but not brave enough to be queer, and also like messed up sort of...

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0:09:33 Abby: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you just - if you take out the idea that Roger is I ​ guess manipulating these young man, men in a romantic way, then the narrative just doesn't make sense to me.

0:09:46 Amy: Yeah, but like at the same time, it is not present in the narrative. ​

0:09:50 Abby: Right. No, it's not explicit there. ​

0:09:52 Aurora: Right. ​

0:09:52 Gus: But it's subtext. ​

0:09:53 Amy: Yeah, but it's like... ​

0:09:55 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:09:55 Amy: ...also very weak subtext, like if I had gone into this without knowing that like, ​ all of this stuff was happening behind the scenes because of you guys, I wouldn't...

[laughter]

0:10:06 Gus: Sorry, Amy. ​

0:10:06 Amy: I might have... It probably would have flown over my head like I would have ​ thought like the Alex thing was weird. And I would have been like, that's a really bad motivation for Thom. I don't understand why she's making him do this, but I would have assumed it was like, you know, not great writing or something.

0:10:21 Gus: Right. ​

0:10:22 Abby: Yeah. I mean, it will say it like, I don't know that there's really a lot there in ​ terms of like explicit canonical facts, but reading this as a kid, I did read Roger and Thom as queer, like I got that. So there's something there that indicates it. I guess the one thing that I noticed was George is talking to Thom about his powers or something and he says, "Does your friend know?’ Meaning Roger, in a way that is innuendo filled. I felt so... There's a little bit there, but not much.

0:10:54 Gus: We should clarify for any listeners who do not know, Tamora Pierce has said ​ in... interviews or something?

0:11:00 Abby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ​

0:11:01 Gus: Interviews, etcetera, that in early drafts or early versions of the book, Thom ​ and Roger were in some sort of relationship, and also that Roger is or was, in an early version, bi.

0:11:20 Abby: Yeah, specifically Thom is gay and Roger is bi, or was. ​

0:11:23 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:11:24 Gus: I think we've been referring to Roger as being queer-coded, and we may have ​ referred to him as being a gay-coded villain.

0:11:33 Abby: Yeah, I think we did that somewhat. I think we also somewhat discounted the ​

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idea that he could have had a relationship with Delia, based on his queer-coding, which, if he's bi, he definitely could have. And I think actually Tamora Pierce has mentioned that - did she do that in the book? I can't remember.

0:11:51 Gus: Yeah, it was in the book. ​

0:11:52 Abby: Yeah, that they were lovers. ​

0:11:54 Gus: It just said in the text, it was like, "Delia, who had been Roger's lover." And I ​ was like, ‘This was not in the earlier books.’

0:12:00 Abby: That text was not there, but sure. ​

0:12:02 Gus: But sure. ​

0:12:02 Amy: Also it's…[unhappy noise] Every relationship Roger could potentially have is ​ ​ ​ disgusting to me, honestly.

0:12:11 Abby: Well, he's a bad person! ​

0:12:13 Aurora: Yeah, he's terrible. ​

0:12:14 Amy: But also, the only people he hangs around with are significantly younger than ​ he is, and very easily manipulated, which I don't love.

0:12:24 Gus: Yeah, he is a villain. ​

0:12:27 Amy: Yeah, but there are villain love interests that I can buy. ​

0:12:32 Gus: Okay. ​

0:12:33 Amy: But, like a significantly older man who like... ​

0:12:38 Abby: I buy it, like I don't ship him with anyone, but I completely buy him as this ​ very queer-coded villain who has basically seduced all these young people into following him.

0:12:51 Amy: Oh yeah, I think that I misspoke there. I think what I meant to say was more ​ of a... There are villains where I can... The relationships are things where I'm like, ‘That makes sense,’ or not ‘that makes sense,’ but it makes sense that you would want to see more, that you would want that dynamic and like...

0:13:07 Abby: You're saying that you ship it. There are villain relationships that you ship, and ​ you don't ship any of these.

0:13:13 Amy: Yeah. I'm just... This is not a thread that's gonna take us anywhere. ​

[laughter]

0:13:21 Gus: The thread is, ‘Do you ship this?’ and the answer is no. ​

0:13:25 Abby: Like you said, why would anyone ship? I don't know why that's even a thing to ​ talk about.

0:13:32 Amy: No. Just like the... It squicks me a lot, and I guess that's what I was going to ​ say, this was about me.

01/01/19 Page 8 of 54

0:13:39 Abby: Yeah, no. I think that's a reaction that's very supported by the narrative, ​ because even if you don't really read them as queer relationships, obviously, Roger's relationship with both Thom and Alex is very manipulative and harmful, and leads to both of their deaths.

[various noises of agreement]

0:14:02 Abby: Yes, so any other queerness stuff? ​

0:14:04 Amy: Alanna has a big crush on Thayet. Pass it on. ​

0:14:06 Abby: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. ​

0:14:08 Gus: Yes! ​

0:14:08 Aurora: Oh yeah, of course. ​

0:14:09 Amy: Galla pals! ​

0:14:09 Abby: Her breath caught in her throat when she saw Thayet all dressed up. ​

0:14:14 Gus: Oh my god. ​

0:14:15 Amy: At one point, there's a line, that's just, "Alanna had other plans for Thayet." ​ And I'm just like, ‘What are those plans?’

[laughter]

0:14:22 Gus: Yes. ​

0:14:23 Abby: Anyway, that's great. Not much more to say about that, except Alanna is ​ super queer.

0:14:28 Amy: Big giant crush. ​

0:14:33 Gus: Yes. ​

[chimes]

0:14:35 Abby: I just feel really bad about Alex and Thom all the time. ​

0:14:38 Gus: Just all the time. Oh, man. Alex was such a... He was very cold, and I don't ​ know, I wanna say a jerk in this. I love him so much. Every scene he was in.

0:14:54 Abby: I know. There's not really a big reason to love him in this book specifically, but ​ gosh, I love him.

0:15:01 Gus: I don't know. ​

0:15:02 Abby: They've got the villain plotting scene with the little villain squad, and ​ everyone's all... I don't know, upset about their plans failing. And then Alex is like, ‘I told you guys not to do it.’

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 9 of 54

0:15:17 Gus: I feel like I should have mentioned this back in feminism and we can cut it out ​ but I wanted to, while we're talking about the villains, bring up that one moment when Delia and... whatever the other one's name is...

0:15:33 Amy: Josiane. ​

0:15:33 Gus: Josiane, thank you, decided to like, Mean Girls at Alanna. ​

0:15:40 Amy: Wait. I have thoughts about this that are related to ‘Social Justice Corner’ ​ though, which is, after that interaction, which lasted like a minute, Alanna goes to Myles and Raoul and Gary and is just like, ‘So, she's crazy, right?’

0:15:54 Gus: Yes, yes. ​

0:15:56 Amy: Josiane is literally crazy, and like okay, she does stuff later, but it just really ​ bothered me.

0:16:03 Abby: Well, also I'm not super into the general portrayal of Josiane as literally ​ insane.

0:16:11 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:16:11 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:16:11 Abby: She's an axe murderer at the end, she literally has an axe. ​

0:16:14 Amy: Yeah, I strongly disagree with that, in general. I strongly disagree with the fact ​ that she shows up for a second and then Alanna's just like, I don't know, it just got a crazy vibes.’ And also...

0:16:25 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:16:25 Amy: ...earlier in the book, it's from Jon's perspective for a minute, and he's like, ​ ‘Josiane didn't really get the message that he was tired of her. It took a while.’

0:16:36 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:16:36 Abby: Right. No, her motivation is like, ooh she's the crazy ex-girlfriend, 'cause Jon ​ rejected her and now she's obsessed with bringing him down. But, right, then when we get Jon's POV, he's just like, ‘I tired of her quickly,’ which does not cast him in a sympathetic light.

[laughter]

0:16:54 Aurora: Well, most things don't cast Jon in a sympathetic light. ​

0:16:58 Amy: Yeah, it just like... I don't know. I just like, really bothered me that that was ​ even a point of her villainy.

0:17:08 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:17:08 Gus: Yeah, I think this book, in particular, brought up insanity a few different times. ​ And I think the most upsetting one probably is with Josiane. And they're like, ‘Her family produces a mad one every generation. There's a lot of in-breeding. There's bad blood...’

01/01/19 Page 10 of 54

0:17:32 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:17:32 Gus: ‘...in that family,’ it's just all really bad. ​

0:17:34 Abby: Yeah, it's not good stuff. ​

0:17:36 Gus: Just some bad stuff. ​

0:17:37 Abby: I think it's also really interesting. I guess this could go in the Spoiler section, ​ but I'm not... I'm gonna be vague about it. We're gonna see a lot more of the Copper Isles in the future. And I think that it's interesting how that's set up here, I guess, even though, I guess, unintentionally. But right, it's not... Even when they're extremely villainous for the most part, it's not great to have, or especially then, it's not great to say, ‘Every couple generations, one of them just turns out crazy.’

0:18:10 Gus: It was every generation actually. ​

0:18:11 Abby: Okay. ​

0:18:11 Gus: But yes. ​

0:18:11 Amy: Yeah. It was really messed up, and it kind of brought me out of it, and I ​ don't... You know, mental health. It's important to talk about it.

0:18:25 Gus: It is. I think we should bring up, I think we should mention the other couple of ​ times that it's brought up.

0:18:29 Abby: Yeah. I do wanna say we're using words like, crazy and insane a lot here... ​

0:18:34 Gus: Yes. ​

0:18:34 Abby: 'Cause that's what the book does. Those are not the terms that are great to ​ use to refer to actually mentally ill people.

0:18:41 Amy and Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:18:41 Gus: Yes. ​

0:18:44 Abby: Do you wanna bring up more stuff, Gus? ​

0:18:46 Gus: Yeah, just a couple of things, which is that Roger is referred to as being insane, ​ post sleep or after having been brought back from the dead there. He's had a bit of a personality change. He acts very differently, and his motivations aren't particularly clear.

0:19:08 Abby: Yeah, they never really explain what his plot is other than, I guess, just to ​ destroy the country?

0:19:14 Gus: Yeah, which maybe that's it. ​

0:19:17 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:19:17 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:19:17 Abby: But right, I mean, he still... Given that he got his titles reinstated, he ​ presumably is still second in line for the throne so he could go for the throne. But right, they've

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just sort of got this idea of like, ‘Ooh he's crazy now, so he just wants to wreak havoc.’ I guess.

0:19:35 Gus: Yeah. And then the other one that's been brought up actually as a sort of ​ through line throughout all of the books, I don't know if it's been mentioned in every single one, but seems to have been, is that Alanna has mentioned a few times that insanity runs in her family.

0:19:52 Abby: Oh yeah. ​

0:19:53 Gus: Yeah, so... And it's been brought up in a couple of lighthearted ways. I think ​ she's referred to it when she's talking about why she decided to disguise herself as a boy.

0:20:05 Abby: Right. She usually brings it up, like in reference to her doing something ​ incredibly out of the norm or risky or brave.

0:20:13 Aurora: Or like unconventional. ​

0:20:13 Abby: Yeah. Yeah. ​

0:20:14 Gus: I think she mentioned it once or twice in relation to Thom. And obviously, I ​ think it was initially brought up about her father, so... I don't really know how to read that other than it's just like...kind of some bad stuff in there.

0:20:30 Abby: Yeah, a little iffy. ​

0:20:31 Amy: It's not nuanced. ​

0:20:32 Abby: Yeah, and as long as we're talking about this, I think we kind of skated over it ​ in our last few episodes when we talked about The Woman Who Rides Like a Man, but there ​ ​ was also definitely a narrative in that book of the old power hungry shaman ‘going mad.’

0:20:48 Gus: Yes. ​

0:20:49 Abby: And attacking Alanna for that reason. So the fact that it's come up with ​ multiple different villains is not the best.

0:20:57 Gus: No, it's bad. ​

0:20:58 Amy: Yeah, okay. I think the thing that bothers me is that they use the term insanity ​ and crazy as a value judgment.

0:21:05 Gus: Yes. ​

0:21:05 Amy: And that's what I don't like about this. ​

0:21:07 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:21:08 Amy: Because it's not, it's just a thing. ​

0:21:11 Abby: Right. Well, and repeatedly, the idea is like you go crazy and then you just ​ wanna destroy things, I guess? Mostly? 'Cause that's what... 'Cause the shaman attacks Alanna and then Josiane starts axe murdering, and Roger changes his goal from becoming king to just wreaking havoc. So yeah, it's not a good narrative.

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0:21:37 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:21:39 Amy: No. ​

0:21:41 Abby: But I guess... Let's keep moving. ​

0:21:43 Gus: Yeah, we can move this insanity section so that it's not in our queerness ​ section.

0:21:48 Abby: Well look, Yeah. Let's say that we had transitioned to a different mental health ​ section. This was not part of our queerness section, this was a separate issue.

0:21:57 Gus: Right. ​

0:21:57 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:21:57 Abby: Also, this is entirely unrelated to either queerness or mental health, but I just ​ would like to mention that I'm very pleased that that Roger's amateur jewelry-making came back at the climax.

[laughter]

0:22:10 Gus: Thank God. ​

0:22:10 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:22:11 Abby: And it continued to be relevant throughout. I'm delighted. ​

0:22:14 Gus: You know it has been since the first book, we've seen Roger's amateur jeweling ​ and his jewelery. [laughter] It's been an important plot point. ​ ​

0:22:22 Abby: Yeah! ​

0:22:23 Gus: Of course, it would come back. ​

0:22:25 Abby: Then a beautiful thematic through-line. ​

[laughter]

0:22:28 Gus: Yes. ​

[chimes]

0:22:30 Abby: Okay, let's move on to race. Let's start with Shang, I guess. ​

0:22:33 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:22:34 Aurora: Sure. ​

0:22:35 Amy: Liam Ironarm. [laughter] ​ ​

0:22:37 Abby: So, they're called the Shang. He's the Dragon of Shang. The unarmed combat ​ that he teaches Alanna is karate, like it just is.

0:22:46 Amy: Well, it's martial arts. ​

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0:22:48 Gus: It's martial arts. ​

0:22:49 Amy: We aren't sure which one. ​

0:22:50 Abby: No, it's karate. I took karate as a kid, and it's like, she learned a sort of more ​ Western style of punching as a knight. And then like, what Liam describes...is described as teaching her, is literally how to punch as if you were doing karate.

0:23:05 Amy: Okay. I'll buy that. ​

0:23:06 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:23:07 Aurora: Okay. ​

0:23:08 Amy: Yeah, it's definitely not like, it is definitely a martial art and it is definitely like ​ an East Asian style of fighting.

0:23:15 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:23:15 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:23:16 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:23:17 Amy: And he's called the Shang Dragon. ​

0:23:20 Abby: Right. ​

0:23:20 Amy: And it is ridiculous that that would be a white man. ​

0:23:26 Aurora: Quite. ​

0:23:26 Abby: Yeah, and I think this is corrected somewhat in later books, but as of now, ​ well, and wild cat's borderline, I remember her description being that she's white.

0:23:37 Gus: I don't remember what the actual description is. ​

0:23:39 Abby: But certainly, this is very vaguely remembered from Kel, actually. ​

0:23:45 Gus: Wiry, tan. ​

0:23:45 Abby: So, spoiler, Amy, the Wild Cat returns. ​

0:23:48 Amy: Oh no, she's in the first book. I know. ​

0:23:50 Abby: Yeah, okay, cool. But right... Yeah, I can't swear to the fact that she's white, ​ but, right. Definitely, we're getting a really Asian-coded culture with a fair number of white people in it.

0:24:04 Amy: Yeah, and like a clumsily Asian culture. ​

0:24:06 Gus: Can we refer to the Shang as a culture? They're definitely an order. Sorry, I just ​ wanna be...

0:24:11 Amy: No, I was just saying, and it's like very clumsy. ​

01/01/19 Page 14 of 54

0:24:12 Abby: Does someone have like a train whistle going on in the background? ​

0:24:15 Aurora: Yes? ​

[laughter]

0:24:16 Abby: Okay. ​

0:24:18 Aurora: Gus, you'll probably get that same train in some time... ​

0:24:21 Gus: Oh no, I don't think I can hear trains from me, from where I am actually. ​

0:24:24 Aurora: Okay. ​

0:24:24 Gus: I'm by the lake. ​

0:24:24 Amy: Oh, right. You're both in the same city. ​

0:24:27 Gus: Yeah! ​

0:24:28 Aurora: Yeah! ​

0:24:29 Gus: Aurora, you should come visit my cat sometime, even though you're allergic. ​

0:24:32 Aurora: Can I? ​

0:24:33 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:24:34 Aurora: Okay, wonderful. Thank you. Will do. ​

[laughter]

0:24:37 Abby: Okay, excellent. ​

0:24:38 Aurora: Anyway. ​

0:24:39 Abby: Shang. ​

0:24:41 Aurora: Cat, Wild Cat. ​

0:24:43 Amy: I feel like the Shang are... The whole time I was reading the previous three ​ books, I was like, ‘Wow, what a clumsy way to Asian-code someone, but at least she's doing it without saying the things she said in Hand of the Goddess.’ And then it turns out that this is a red-head, with color changing blue eyes, so it's feasible that it could be like mixed race, but I think he's just white.

0:25:05 Aurora: Yeah... ​

0:25:05 Abby: There's certainly no indication in the book that he is mixed race. Every ​ descriptor that we get is one that you would expect to find on a white person.

0:25:12 Amy: Yeah. Right. ​

0:25:12 Abby: And it is related, I think, to the fact that the... We did, as you mentioned, ​

01/01/19 Page 15 of 54

Master Si-Cham appears in this book again. He was referred to in the previous book as, or a couple of books ago, as the yellow man, so we assumed that he's Asian, but the Mithran priests as an order are also coded as somewhat Asian, I think, and that's the main religion in Tortall or one of the main religions. So there's certainly a fair number, I think, of Mithrin priests who are not Asian and Thom studied with them, and he's not Asian.

0:25:50 Gus: Right. ​

0:25:50 Aurora: Right. ​

0:25:51 Amy: But this is the Shang Dragon who is the oldest surviving Shang warrior in 300 ​ years.

0:25:57 Gus: The oldest surviving Shang Dragon. ​

0:26:00 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:26:00 Amy: The oldest... Okay. I misread that. ​

0:26:01 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:26:01 Gus: Because he's... There have been multiple Dragons. ​

0:26:04 Abby: I mean, the Wild Cat is older than him. ​

0:26:06 Aurora: Definitely. ​

0:26:06 Gus: Yes. It's just that the mythical beasts and especially the Dragons don't tend to ​ live long.

0:26:11 Abby: Yeah, 'cause right. They're the best ones, I guess. So they have a target on ​ them, but he's literally the best of the Shang warriors. And he's a white guy.

[laughter]

0:26:20 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:26:20 Abby: Which, in a Watsonian sense, if the Shang are an order who take kids from all ​ over the world, like anyone who wants to come and train, who they think does well enough, it makes sense that they would be a racially diverse group, but it's not a great look to have this very Asian-coded culture and fill it with white people.

0:26:39 Aurora: Agreed. ​

0:26:41 Amy: Yeah. It's just, it was so jarring for me, honestly. ​

0:26:46 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:26:48 Abby: Okay, so let's talk about the K'mir. I think - I mean, they're not perfect, but I ​ think in a lot of ways, the K'mir are what the Bazhir should have been, I guess. Because they're a group of tribes, who are not white, being oppressed under white colonial rule, or I assume that... Thayet is described as having very light skin and looking like her dad. So I assume that the monarchs of Sarain are white, but we don't actually know that.

0:27:22 Gus: I didn't read them as white but also I read there as being a racial dynamic going ​

01/01/19 Page 16 of 54

on. But it wasn't specifically white oppressors. I don't read Thayet as white, but I don't know if I'm meant to. I know she's...

0:27:37 Abby: Well, right. That's something we can talk about. We know that she's bi-racial. ​ Her dad is a Sarain lowlander and her mom is K'mir, and she says that she looks like her dad, which includes having a strong hooked nose and very light skin.

0:27:53 Gus: Right. ​

0:27:54 Abby: But we never actually get a description of any lowlander Saren people, I don't ​ think so. We don't really know if they're intentionally supposed to be white.

0:28:05 Gus: Right. ​

0:28:06 Abby: The K'mir are clearly not white. ​

0:28:08 Gus: Yes. I think it's worth pointing out that... Okay, how do I phrase this? Let's see, ​ that historically and also contemporarily, there is racial and cultural oppression that happens that doesn't involve whiteness and when we consistently just infer that all narratives around race involve whiteness, then we are centering whiteness again, in some ways. Does that make sense?

0:28:49 Aurora and Abby: Mmhmm. ​

0:28:49 Amy: Yeah, that makes total sense. ​

0:28:51 Aurora: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. ​

0:28:53 Gus: And that I think there's a very specific type of racial oppression that is ​ perpetuated by white people, but that that is not the be all end all.

0:29:09 Abby: Right. Yeah, no and certainly the K'mir are an ethnic group being oppressed ​ under colonial rule by another ethnic group, but that is true whether or not Sarens are fantasy white. [laughter] And yeah, I don't actually... We mentioned this earlier. The comment about ​ ​ countries being cut from the same cloth, I think that was just Maren and Tusaine and Tortall, and maybe Tyra.

0:29:37 Gus: Right. I don't think it was S... ​

0:29:39 Abby: And so, right. I don't think that was Sarain, so that was actually be a point ​ against them being white, but, I don't think we have the information to interpret in the book.

0:29:47 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:29:47 Aurora: Yeah. So I did, I wondered, so at some point, I don't remember who said ​ this, but someone said that K'mir, the Bazhir, and like...

0:29:58 Abby: Oh the Doi, yeah. ​

0:30:00 Aurora: ...the Doi tribes people were all related, to some extent. ​

0:30:04 Gus: Maybe had some common ancestry. ​

0:30:07 Aurora: Yeah, which I feel like, might even point to this kind of wider colonial ​ narrative, in which we have a lot of people that were perhaps, over a long period of time, like

01/01/19 Page 17 of 54

increasingly marginalized.

0:30:21 Abby: Yeah, I could see that. ​

0:30:22 Aurora: Including all of these groups. ​

0:30:26 Abby: Although there is an interesting sort of crossover, I think, because I, at least, ​ read the Doi as coded more Asian or maybe Tibetan than black, whereas the Bazhir have mostly been Arab North African. So those are different groups that she's saying are related. Yeah, it's also like, I guess, the Doi are perhaps fantasy Asian as an ethnic group. We also, we know that Master Si-Cham is fantasy Asian, but we don't know what his actual ethnic group is. We've never received any indication that he's not Tortallan.

0:31:07 Gus and Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

0:31:08 Abby: I just feel like she didn't really think out the race dynamics of this world very ​ well.

0:31:15 Amy: [jokingly sarcastic] You know, now that you bring that up, I think you’re right. ​ ​ ​

[laughter]

0:31:22 Abby: But, I mean, like... Back to what I was saying, I guess, in a lot of ways, the ​ K'mir are what I think the Bazhir should have been because they are this ethnic group that's being oppressed, and we see them not, you know, I mean, from Alanna's point of view, but not from the point of view of the oppressor group. We see, you know, like we get Buri and Thayet's story, as members of the oppressed group. And we see, they've had really unfair legislation placed on them. They specifically mention that they're not allowed to assemble in groups, which is a real thing that oppressed people have had to deal with, and that's shown as really unfair, as opposed to, with the Bazhir, the narrative was so much like, ‘Wow, can't the imperialists and the people they're oppressing just get along?’

[laughter and sighs]

0:32:18 Amy: We're making some faces. ​

0:32:19 Aurora: Yup, so many faces. ​

0:32:20 Abby: Yup. So, right. The K'miri are probably not perfect. ​

0:32:26 Gus: Right. ​

0:32:27 Abby: But, we get good interesting characters that are K'miri, especially Buri, who's ​ perfect in every way.

0:32:32 Gus: Yes. ​

[laughter]

0:32:35 Abby: And this is the first time that we've, I guess, heard about colonialism and ​ imperialism as a thing that is bad. And like, we hear about it from these members of the oppressed group, which I think is a great step forward.

0:32:51 Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

01/01/19 Page 18 of 54

0:32:51 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:32:52 Amy: Yeah. I agree. ​

0:32:55 Abby: I don't really appreciate that, the amount that it's set up as like, again: Alanna ​ leaves Tortall and finds this horrible oppressive empire that's totally not like Tortall. It still doesn't acknowledge that this stuff is happening in her country, but it's definitely a step forward to acknowledge that it's not good that this is happening.

0:33:17 Gus: Yeah. And it does allow us to extra-textually draw parallels between what is ​ happening to the K'mir and what is happening to the Bazhir.

0:33:26 Abby: Mm-hmm. ​

0:33:28 Gus: So, not good enough, but... ​

0:33:31 Abby: The story about Thayet's mother is just like... ​

0:33:33 Gus: Oh... ​

0:33:35 Abby: I love her. ​

0:33:36 Gus: I love her. ​

0:33:36 Abby: She's so cool. ​

0:33:37 Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

0:33:38 Abby: The line Buri said about like, "My mother and brother are buried at Kalasin's ​ right and left hands. The Warlord will lie in his tomb alone." Just the coolest. Wow, I love all of them.

0:33:51 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:33:52 Abby: Anything else about the K'miri, other than Kalasin is the best? ​

[laughter]

0:33:58 Aurora: Cool that it's recognized that they have their own language. I'm glad that ​ was there.

0:34:02 Gus: Thank you. Yes. ​

0:34:02 Abby: Yeah. That was great. It makes so much more sense than whatever is ​ happening with the Bazhir.

[laughter]

0:34:12 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:34:13 Aurora: Oh, super cool that, what, it's like Thayet mentioned that the K'mir tribes ​ also were led by women, which is neat.

0:34:21 Abby: Yeah. And that it's clearly just a part of their society that... ​

01/01/19 Page 19 of 54

0:34:25 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:34:25 Abby: Women fight too, which is great, rather than in the last book, where Alanna ​ came into the Bazhir society and they seemed to have basically the same opinions on women as Tortall. It's nice to see a different culture with different gender dynamics.

0:34:44 Aurora: Yeah, that was nice. ​

0:34:47 Gus: Oh, other race things. I have one race thing. ​

0:34:50 Aurora: Yeah! ​

0:34:52 Gus: The epilogue takes place when Alanna goes back and visits the Bloody Hawk ​ tribe. We hear from none of the actual members of the Bloody Hawk. We don't get an update on Kara and Kourrem, which I... When she went back, I was like, ‘Yes. We get to see what Kara and Kourrem are doing.’ They're not mentioned.

0:35:09 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:35:10 Aurora: Extremely disappointing. ​

0:35:11 Gus: Boo! ​

[laughter]

0:35:13 Aurora: And really, every time they mention the Bazhir, it's just kind of this in ​ passing like, ‘Yep, still part of the Bazhir.’

0:35:20 Abby: Right. And yeah, that... There's groups of young boys and young girls ​ practicing riding or whatever, but we don't get to know about them as characters.

0:35:29 Gus: We did see... Oh yeah. And Raoul is explicitly... ​

0:35:33 Amy: Yeah. He's also... ​

0:35:33 Abby: Yeah, he's also been adopted into a tribe. ​

0:35:35 Gus: Come on Raoul. ​

0:35:36 Amy: [unhappily] Yeah. ​ ​ ​

0:35:36 Gus: Come on. I believed in you. ​

0:35:39 Abby: Yeah, really. And we see a lot of the Bazhir have come and joined the Kings ​ Own.

0:35:44 Gus: Yeah. Which is interesting. I don't really know how to read that. ​

0:35:51 Abby: We can maybe analyze that more in the future, I'm not sure, but right. To ​ some extent, it could be read as them assimilating into the culture of Tortall, but on the other hand, maybe it's a good sign that they can get this fairly prestigious position. And if Jonathan and Raoul have been specifically recruiting them for the King's Own, that could be as part of an effort to sort like... To give them opportunities in Tortallan culture, rather than just being very racist towards them, which is what we saw in the first book, that all Tortallans, I guess, were just pretty racist towards the Bazhir. But yeah, I don't know. It's hard to interpret.

01/01/19 Page 20 of 54

0:36:41 Gus: Yeah, I want to say something about how... I don't know. It being included in ​ the military of an oppressive government is not progress necessarily, but I don't really have anything more than that.

0:37:00 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:37:00 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:37:01 Abby: I did wanna mention, I guess... Just really quickly, that when Alanna's talking ​ about the sorceress from the last book, who we know is from a Bazhir tribe but went to live in a village 'cause she wanted to do magic, she actually calls her a shaman, which I thought was a weird choice given that all the information we have about that is that it's a religious role in a tribe and not just a Bazhir person who does magic.

0:37:25 Aurora: That was odd. ​

0:37:28 Abby: Oh, and the other thing that was racialized language that I wasn't super into, ​ was that Alanna duels a couple of people, and then she asks Gary about them and he says, "One was Golan and the black was Carthaki."

0:37:41 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:37:42 Abby: So don't talk about people's race in that way. ​

[laughter]

0:37:48 Aurora: Nope. ​

0:37:50 Gus: That's not the part of speech that you use that as. ​

0:37:53 Abby: No, no. ​

0:37:54 Gus: That is an adjective. ​

0:37:54 Amy: Don't call a person an adjective, yeah. ​

0:38:00 Abby: So, yeah. I mean, not much to say about that other than, it's bad. ​

0:38:03 Gus: It's bad. ​

0:38:04 Amy: Yeah, she's gotta stop with the color words. I think. ​

0:38:07 Aurora: She's gotta stop with the color words. ​

0:38:08 Amy: She doesn't know how to use them. ​

0:38:09 Aurora: Nope. ​

0:38:10 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:38:11 Aurora: I have a... [breaking news alert sounds] Do do do...Jew Watch! ​ ​ ​

0:38:15 Amy: Jew Watch? ​

01/01/19 Page 21 of 54

0:38:17 Abby: Nice. ​

[laughter]

0:38:18 Amy: What? Crossover! ​

0:38:20 Aurora: You can cut that out if we're not allowed to take their sound bites. ​

0:38:23 Abby: No, I think... And we can give credit. It’s Witch, Please, but... ​ ​ ​

0:38:25 Aurora: Witch, Please. ​ ​

0:38:26 Abby: We love them. ​

0:38:29 Aurora: Well, this is... I wanna get y'all’s thoughts on, like opinions on this, but I ​ thought there was some coding done in... So do you remember when Myles had that [sounding ​ out] Sirajit... ​

0:38:43 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:38:44 Aurora: ...go and track down Ralon or Claw, and the way he's described is very, ​ very...kind of stereotypically semitic.

0:39:00 Abby: I'm glad you brought that up, 'cause I didn't really know how to read him like ​ ethnically when I read the book, but when you say that he's coded semitic, that actually makes a lot of sense.

0:39:09 Aurora: Yeah, so... ​

0:39:10 Gus: Can you point to a... Yeah. ​

0:39:11 Aurora: Sure. They talk about... The only descriptor that they use for him is he's a ​ little man and he's nearsighted, and they specifically mention that he did some very extensive accounting of his expenses, which are all not great ways to...

0:39:28 Gus: Right. ​

0:39:28 Aurora: ...be the only descriptors you use for someone. ​

0:39:29 Abby: Right. And that... Yeah, I guess he's like well-paid, is another thing they ​ mentioned about him.

0:39:33 Aurora: And that he was very smart. ​

0:39:34 Abby: Yeah, and also just the fact that... I guess we're meant to assume that Sirajit ​ or whatever it is, is his ethnicity. But that's not one that I've ever heard of? That's not a country or a nationality.

0:39:49 Gus: Right. It's not a country that we hear of. ​

0:39:51 Aurora: Right? ​

0:39:52 Abby: Yeah. So we don't really have a lot of context to interpret that word. ​

0:39:58 Aurora: But this was, I guess, perhaps the first bit of kinda... Did you say semitic ​

01/01/19 Page 22 of 54

coding that we would have encountered on these books.

0:40:08 Gus: Yeah. I... ​

0:40:08 Abby: Yeah, I haven't. I don't remember, I don't... ​

0:40:10 Aurora: I really wish it hadn't relied so heavily on stereotypes though. ​

0:40:13 Gus: Yeah. Fun... Fun how that happens. We actually had a... Got a tweet from a ​ listener a while back, this was back after some of our second book episodes came out or something, so I didn't really know what to do with it then, but Twitter user mosslamb mentioned that they had not seen, that they had not noticed any specific Jew analogues. So I am curious as to what they think of that and as to what our other listeners think.

0:40:53 Abby: Yeah, no, I would love to hear from our listeners on this. ​

0:40:55 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:40:56 Abby: I also think you could potentially make an argument for Alex, as being a ​ Semitic analogue.

0:41:01 Gus: Yes, that was actually the other part of the tweet was that this person had read ​ Alex as being Semitic, being coded as, like, dark.

0:41:14 Abby: Right. Not explicitly being a different racial group but constantly mentioned ​ that he's sort of othered and constantly described as dark.

0:41:22 Gus: Yeah, so that's interesting. Thanks for bringing that up, Aurora. ​

0:41:26 Abby: I will also note that there was a connection with the sorceress who left the ​ Bazhir and went to live in Hill Country was specifically mentioned as living near Tirragen which is Alex's hometown, so that was interesting as well.

0:41:38 Gus: Interesting. ​

0:41:39 Abby: Oh, so one other thing which I don’t... I just wanna put out there is that, in ​ the scene where everyone's getting introduced, Thayet and Alanna and Liam are all getting presented at court, George is there, and he's in disguise as a Bazhir.

0:42:01 Aurora and Gus: Oh. ​

0:42:01 Abby: Was he in blackface? ​

0:42:05 Gus: [dubious] I want to say, no. ​ ​ ​

0:42:07 Aurora: I hope not. ​

0:42:07 Abby: I hope not, but how...Yeah. ​

0:42:10 Amy: How else is he... ​

0:42:12 Gus: Did they mention his skin color at all? I feel like he was only ever referred to as ​ tan.

0:42:18 Abby: They didn't, they didn't explicitly mention. ​

01/01/19 Page 23 of 54

0:42:21 Gus: I hope... Please listeners if you have noticed anything please let us know so that ​ we can thoroughly condemn it. It’s...

0:42:28 Amy: Wait, as an imperialist nation, Tortall could have the same problem with ​ whitewashing as we do. And maybe they just...

0:42:34 Abby: I mean even if they don't, it's like clearly a problem that we have in our ​ culture. So it's not an okay thing to put in a book.

0:42:43 Amy: But I'm just saying maybe George isn't doing blackface. Maybe he just is ​ wearing the clothes and no one knows what a real Bazhir looks like.

0:42:51 Abby: I mean maybe. There are a lot of Bazhir in the capital at this point. ​

0:42:55 Amy: I will do whatever mental gymnastics it takes for me to not have read and ​ enjoyed a book with blackface.

[laughter]

0:43:02 Abby: I mean, that’s not... We should probably acknowledge the flaws rather than ​ doing mental gymnastics around them. But also the Bazhir do live under imperial rule in Tortall, so it's not unreasonable to assume that there are probably people of mixed race, and various skin tones.

0:43:25 Gus: Yeah, and actually this is the thing. I don't think I've noticed and I've been ​ trying to pick up on this. I've been trying to keep my eyes open for this. I don't think I've actually noticed any descriptors used for the Bazhir in terms of skin color. We've, I think we've definitely been reading them as being people of color, and I also think that that is not unreasonable because of the way that they're so heavily coded. But it's a fantasy world. Who knows?

0:43:58 Abby: Yeah, I don't remember any descriptions of them specifically as having very ​ dark skin, so right, I think that clearly we can read them as people of color, but we don't know exactly what they look like.

0:44:10 Gus: I wanted to bring it up. It seemed like a weird omission, but I think it's just ​ pretty easy to chalk up to Tamora Pierce not being good at writing about race.

0:44:21 Abby: Yeah. I have one more sort of thing, that's related to imperialism and it's back ​ on the topic of the Dominion Jewel.

0:44:33 Aurora: [in an excited undertone] Yeah! ​ ​ ​

0:44:34 Abby: So, yeah, I guess specifically what I wanted to say about the Dominion Jewel ​ is that the scene where Alanna goes to take it and talks about the fact thatshe stops trying to take it at some point and says like, ‘Well, when you think about it, all of these heroes have stolen it.’

0:44:54 Amy: ‘This is literally stealing. Is this stealing?’ ​

0:44:58 Abby: And then after she says that the mountain range guy, Chitral, does give it to ​ her, so that kind of like dispenses with the issue.

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 24 of 54

0:45:10 Aurora: Like ‘here you go.’ I do, I like, kind of on the same lines of imperialism... So ​ Chitral, he's an elemental, and he's like the essence of time, and he's kind of... not above all this. But it makes it more reasonable for us to be critical of the Gods, because they are like, they're just, like, people that live forever.

0:45:39 Abby: Mm-hmm. ​

0:45:39 Aurora: And there's things like the elements, and our very cool friend, Chitral, who ​ do not do the same kind of helping...

0:45:51 Gus: Meddling. ​

0:45:52 Aurora: Empires being terrible. ​

0:45:56 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:45:57 Aurora: And then, the jewel is, of course, I guess his... ​

0:46:00 Abby: Yeah, I mean... ​

0:46:01 Aurora: He made it... It comes back to him. ​

0:46:02 Abby: He made it. And, right. It comes back to him, and then hero's come and steal ​ it.

0:46:06 Aurora: Exactly. ​

0:46:06 Amy: He made it because he wants friends. ​

[laughter]

0:46:08 Amy: He wants people to visit. Which like... A good way to do that would not be to ​ live on top of fantasy Mount Everest, but whatever floats your boat, my guy.

0:46:20 Abby: At least I can... 'Cause it's called Chitral Pass. I kind of read it as like, he is the ​ mountain or he's tied to the mountain in essence, in some way. He's an elemental. I'm not sure he necessarily could just go live in a city, if he wanted to.

0:46:34 Gus: Yeah, we don't know what rules he has. ​

0:46:36 Amy: Yeah. This is related to my specific reading of Chitral, which I'm not gonna ​ back down from, which is that he's exactly what he's presented as, in the book.

0:46:46 Abby: Okay...you mean an ape with a sword? ‘Cause that... ​

[laughter]

0:46:49 Gus: He's just lying about all the other stuff. ​

0:46:51 Abby: They say explicitly in the book, that Alanna could tell that this is just a form he ​ was taking. So I think your reading is wrong.

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 25 of 54

0:46:55 Gus: Maybe?...she’s wrong. She’s very cold. ​

0:46:57 Amy: Maybe... Alanna thinks that's she's not magic. Alanna thinks.. ​

0:47:01 Gus: She's very cold... And tired. ​

0:47:02 Amy: And also, Alanna thinks that she herself... Like for books, she thought that she ​ ​ ​ wasn't particularly magical. I think that we have an unreliable narrator,...

0:47:13 Aurora: Oh, incredibly. ​

0:47:14 Amy: ...and I think this is just an ape with the sword. ​

[laughter]

0:47:16 Aurora: But Amy, he controls the weather. ​

[laughter]

0:47:18 Amy: Don't we all? ​

0:47:19 Abby: Oh, my God. ​

[laughter]

0:47:20 Gus: He's an ape with a sword who is... He has like three points of characterization, ​ right? He's lonely, he's an ape with a sword, and he's really into art for its own sake.

0:47:35 Abby: He really appreciates beautiful art, and beautiful magic. ​

0:47:39 Gus: For its own sake, specifically. ​

0:47:40 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:47:41 Gus: And it makes him sad, that Alanna probably was thinking about function over ​ form, when she made her sword.

[laughter]

0:47:50 Amy: Guys, I was reading through this book, and there's a character that's just an ​ ape version of that lobs...of those crabs that grab knives.

0:47:58 Abby: Okay, that's so far from true. ​

[laughter]

0:48:01 Gus: Listeners, Amy is, like, crying. ​

0:48:05 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:48:07 Amy: [laughing, overcome] It’s an ape...She has to fight an ape with a sword. ​ ​ ​ [laughter] That's her... That's the big climax of this book. ​

0:48:15 Abby: I mean it's also not, 'cause it happens in the middle. ​

01/01/19 Page 26 of 54

0:48:19 Amy: [laughing] That's the big center of this book… [almost uninteligible with ​ ​ ​ ​ laughter] That's the main end to the Dominion Jewel quest... ​

0:48:35 Abby: Okay. ​

[laughter]

0:48:35 Aurora: Okay. ​

0:48:35 Amy: Okay, I'm gonna be laughing, you guys can silence my mic for the next five ​ minutes.

[laughter]

0:48:44 Abby: Yeah, no... so, ape with a sword aside... I like the commentary on hero and ​ quest narratives, and how they're basically about going out and plundering stuff. And Alanna does ultimately end up doing that, 'cause she gets the Dominion Jewel. She has a moment, at least, where she thinks about... ‘Oh, yeah, that's what's stealing is.’

[laughter]

0:49:09 Abby: Which is nice to see. ​

[laughter]

0:49:14 Aurora: Very good. ​

0:49:16 Amy: Everything about it is absurd. I love it so much. ​

0:49:21 Abby: Yeah. Good times. ​

0:49:22 Amy: This is when I decided this is a very good book series. ​

[laughter]

0:49:28 Abby: Well, I'm glad you enjoy it. ​

0:49:29 Amy: Thank you. ​

0:49:32 Aurora: Okay. So do you remember the story, this is with regard to kind of the ​ imperial... the Jewel and what it can do and the roles it plays and in wider structures. But, do you remember the story about... I think her name... Zefrem and the...

0:49:46 Amy: Miache. ​

0:49:47 Aurora: Miache, the... ​

0:49:48 Abby: She's the thief. Zefrem and... ​

0:49:50 Aurora: Yeah, yeah. The lady... ​

0:49:51 Amy: Miache. ​

0:49:51 Aurora: Zefrem was the mercenary... ​

01/01/19 Page 27 of 54

0:49:53 Abby: Yeah, yeah. ​

0:49:53 Aurora: ...who pulled her out of a river. Anyway, so she steals the Jewel. And then ​ they go to Tyra, which was then a city that was fit for thieves, apparently, described as not a pleasant place to be. And then they got the Jewel, and birds started nesting there, and lots of people started moving back into the city, and I was like, ‘Is this gentrification?’

[laughter]

0:50:19 Abby: I mean, you're not wrong. ​

0:50:22 Aurora: Just wondering. ​

0:50:22 Amy: Yeah you’re not wrong. ​

0:50:23 Gus: Yeah, you're not wrong. Gentrification is when a lot of birds start moving into ​ your neighborhood and building nests.

0:50:30 Aurora: No, but I expect... I mean they described it as like, somewhere that... Well, ​ they described it as like a pirate's nest, but I expect it drove property values up.

[laughter]

0:50:39 Aurora: And you know, people who... [laughter] You know, could have lived there ​ ​ ​ before, no longer could. And so, even in its most like, passive form, or not passive form, but this is one of the ways that the Jewel is reported as having this very positive impact, but perhaps it's not quite as positive as initially it's portrayed to be. I don't know.

[laughter]

0:51:04 Abby: I don't think that we're intended to read Tyra as a case of gentrification, but I ​ do think there's something like... Well, A, that is kinda what gentrification is, is like, a bunch of fancier people move into the neighborhood and make there not be room for the poorer people who were there originally.

0:51:24 Gus: And, sell the food that those people had originally made at a 300% mark-up ​ and market it as like...

0:51:31 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:51:32 Gus: I'm sorry. I'll stop now. ​

0:51:33 Abby: Yup. No, right. I mean, gentrification, it's bad. I don't think that's intentionally ​ what Tyra was, but I can see that reading. But, right. Also, like... There are some things that are given to us as just sort of positive attributes that the Jewel has, and those include things like: It will help Jonathan be a strong enough ruler to keep Tortall together, as if there was inherent value to Tortall being a country and being strong in a military sense.

0:52:09 Gus: I think those are both bad things. ​

0:52:11 Abby: Right. ​

0:52:11 Amy: Yeah. Can I share my Slack name here? Or is that like me telling my own ​ jokes?

01/01/19 Page 28 of 54

0:52:18 Gus: Please. ​

0:52:19 Amy: So when I got to that part in the book, I changed my name in our group chat ​ to "Maybe The Real Dominion Jewel Was The Countries We Colonized on the Way" and I think that's true.

0:52:28 Aurora: You weren't wrong. ​

0:52:28 Abby: Yeah, I might have to put some of your Slack names on Twitter 'cause I have ​ screenshots of all of them.

[laughter]

0:52:33 Gus: We have to. They're so good, Amy. Please let us share this with the world. ​

0:52:34 Abby: They're very good. ​

0:52:35 Aurora: Oh they're great. ​

0:52:37 Amy: Thank you. I'm very funny and also talented. ​

0:52:39 Aurora: Yes, agreed. ​

0:52:41 Abby: But I mean, the Dominion Jewel is a tool of conquest, at least some of the ​ time, and I think we should acknowledge that.

0:52:47 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:52:48 Aurora: Yeah. ​

0:52:49 Abby: And it, right. It reinforces, especially in the hands of an existing leader like ​ Jon, just reinforces the status quo, class-wise and stuff.

0:53:00 Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

0:53:00 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:53:01 Abby: Speaking of class, I thought it was interesting that commoners can be ​ presented at court in Tortall. And this is something that we'll see some more of in the future, but it does make Tortall a bit more of a meritocracy than perhaps real monarchies ever have been? In that like, if you're the Shang Dragon or a very powerful and unique mage that we might meet in the future, and you're a commoner, you can show up at court and hang around just because of your skills and not because you have a noble title.

0:53:36 Aurora: Yeah. I think Thayet, in particular, talks about Tortall in that way. So she ​ talks about being very excited to leave Sarain and her place as a noble and go to Tortall, where she can build herself.

0:53:52 Abby: As a commoner, yeah. ​

0:53:53 Aurora: As a commoner, exactly. And that assumes that there is... That there's the ​ potential for her to do that.

0:54:00 Gus: Well, we do see... ​

01/01/19 Page 29 of 54

0:54:01 Aurora: And that this is known. ​

0:54:02 Gus: Yeah. We do see an instance of class mobility when George... ​

0:54:06 Aurora: George. ​

0:54:06 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:54:06 Gus: ...becomes a noble because he's best friends with the king. ​

0:54:11 Aurora: I don't know how I felt about that. ​

0:54:13 Abby: He gets kind of like a My Fair Lady situation. ​ ​ ​

[laughter]

0:54:18 Gus: Then again, is it really moving up for him to move from being a king, to being ​ like...

0:54:22 Aurora: King. ​

0:54:23 Gus: A lord... ​

0:54:23 Abby: Well... ​

0:54:24 Gus: Whatever he is. ​

0:54:24 Abby: Yeah. I mean... As King of the Rogues, he has authority over the Rogues, but ​ also could be arrested and presumably killed at any time. So like... Right. There's clearly class benefits that come with being an actual noble.

0:54:41 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

0:54:42 Amy: Would you rather be king of Sealand, or a Congressman of The United States? ​

0:54:46 Gus: Counterpoint. Either way, he's not going to die, because he's friends with Jon. ​

0:54:51 Abby: I mean, yeah. And I do think there's something interesting about one specific ​ King of the Rogues, and one specific King of the Realm, mutually supporting each other. That's probably very bad for the lower classes... That it would be very hard to overthrow either of them, because they have the support of the other.

0:55:09 Gus: Yeah. ​

0:55:09 Amy: Tortall's doing great, guys. [laughter] ​ ​

0:55:13 Abby: I think it's interesting that it would be really hard for a modern reader to get ​ behind any monarchy that did not have some potential for class mobility, because we would just see it as very unfair...

0:55:25 Gus: Unless we didn't notice. ​

0:55:28 Abby: Sure, yes. ​

0:55:28 Gus: I'm sorry. ​

01/01/19 Page 30 of 54

0:55:28 Abby: I mean, yes. That's true. ​

0:55:30 Gus: Please continue with your point. ​

0:55:31 Aurora: No, that's fair. ​

0:55:32 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:55:33 Abby: But, right. If they're gonna have common characters at all, it makes sense ​ that she would want to show us... ‘Here are the ways that they can do well for themselves.’ Although I do appreciate with George, it came with... "Why do you have to make me respectable? Gosh.”

[laughter]

0:55:56 Gus: He was so insulted at first. It was great. ​

0:56:00 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:56:00 Aurora: Yeah. [laughter] ​ ​

0:56:01 Abby: But presumably, that's not so much a feature of real historical monarchies, but ​ it's something that's added so we can feel better about it... If not great, about the Kingdom of Tortall.

0:56:16 Gus: I love that the barony or whatever, that George gets, is called Pirate Swoop for ​ two reasons: One, it implies thieving, still, which is great.

0:56:25 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:56:26 Gus: And two, it's the most fantasy name ever. ​

0:56:29 Abby: Yes. True. ​

0:56:30 Amy: Yes. ​

0:56:31 Abby: It's very good. ​

0:56:31 Gus: Pirate's Swoop. Very good. ​

0:56:32 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:56:33 Amy: Also, it's a thing that pirates probably would do, if they could. ​

0:56:36 Gus: [swooping noise] ​

[laughter]

0:56:38 Abby: Yeah. ​

[laughter]

0:56:39 Abby: Very dramatic. ​

01/01/19 Page 31 of 54

0:56:41 Amy: Gus, that was some really good foley work, and also body comedy. So, great ​ work.

0:56:46 Aurora: Great swooping. ​

0:56:47 Amy: What's the word, physical comedy? ​

0:56:49 Abby: Yeah. Excellent swoop. ​

0:56:51 Gus: Yes. I made a big swoopy motion with my arms, and did kind of like a batman ​ thing, or a Dracula thing. [laughter] I don't know what I was doing. It was good. It was ​ ​ excellent.

[chimes]

0:57:00 Abby: So, let's revive the dead author, for just a little bit in ‘Zombie Author’. ​

0:57:03 Gus: We sure don't do a good job of taking authorial intent out of the rest of this ​ podcast.

0:57:08 Abby: No, we don't. ​

0:57:09 Aurora: No, we don't. ​

0:57:10 Amy: Alright, well, we already talked about the race stuff. ​

0:57:13 Abby: Right. And that's something I can't really speculate on authorial intent there. I ​ mean, I can... I guess. It really seems like she... Maybe someone talked to her about her position on race in the last book, or she learned a little bit about colonialism, but I don't know.

0:57:33 Gus: I think, I mean... As with all things with death of the author, there is a point ​ where authorial intent does not matter.

0:57:41 Abby: Yeah. ​

0:57:42 Gus: And a lot of that stuff is when you are writing things that could potentially harm ​ real people.

0:57:47 Abby: Right. No, regardless of what her intent was, obviously, her writing of race is ​ harmful in some ways.

0:57:53 Aurora: Mm-hmm. ​

0:57:54 Abby: I mean, right? I do think there were some good narratives about imperialism ​ in this book, and there were also some bad ones.

0:58:02 S?: Mm-hmm. ​

0:58:03 Aurora: Agreed. ​

0:58:04 Amy: I have something unrelated, also to this... That I noticed and just remembered ​ right now, which is that the idea of... Use of drugging people, basically without their permission, comes back. And it seems like it's okay if you are drugging someone because they are very nervous, and about to go to a thing, but if you are drugging someone to regain agency, then it's bad... Is what it seems to say.

01/01/19 Page 32 of 54

0:58:29 Abby: Wait, sorry. What are you referencing? ​

0:58:32 Amy: It's like when she let... Apparently, she let Faithful partially spell Liam into ​ not... When she goes up to Chitral, and then it becomes a big thing that is condemned in a way that George literally drugging her is supported. And I have some concerns about that, and how that relates to specifically, the way Tamora Pierce feels about drugging people.

[laughter]

0:59:00 Aurora: Oh, that's fair. ​

0:59:00 Abby: Yeah, no, that's so true, that right. There's a time when Alanna is drugged by ​ her love interest and it's supposed to be a cute thing he does, I guess. Like, it's supposed to be acceptable because he does it to calm her nerves.

0:59:16 Gus: Right. He's like [indistinguishable] to her ​ ​ ​

0:59:16 Abby: But when Alanna allows the magical drugging of Liam because he would stop ​ her from leaving if she didn't, that's a huge... I mean, I can see any kind of drugging in a relationship is a trust issue.

0:59:29 Amy: Is bad. ​

0:59:29 Aurora: It is bad. ​

0:59:30 Amy: Yeah. But it's a different dynamic if you are doing it to regain agency versus ​ someone doing it to take away your agency.

0:59:36 Aurora: Yeah. And are treated really differently. ​

0:59:38 Amy: Like, I'm not saying either is good, but they are different from one another. ​

0:59:42 Gus: And they're different, specifically, in the opposite way from how they seem to ​ be treated by the narrative, is what it's saying.

0:59:50 Amy: Yeah. ​

0:59:50 Abby: Yes. ​

0:59:51 Amy: Which is actually a big concern for me and I'm sorry that I didn't bring it up ​ earlier during the Social Justice portion but...

1:00:00 Aurora: This is really a social justice room. ​

1:00:01 Gus: Yes. ​

1:00:02 Amy: Yeah that's true. ​

1:00:04 Abby: It is. Yeah. And related to that, on shaming that kink, like she really just leans ​ into the age difference so hard with Liam.

1:00:14 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:00:16 Gus: Yeah. ​

01/01/19 Page 33 of 54

1:00:16 Gus: It's less bad to read because Alanna is a grown-up now, thank God. ​

1:00:23 Abby: Yeah, she's an adult and she can form her own opinions better. Like, she's not ​ gonna let Liam push her around.

1:00:29 Gus: Right. As we've discussed, she doesn't let Liam push her around. ​

1:00:34 Amy: Yeah. Well, she meets Liam when they are basically equals. Liam doesn't treat ​ them as equals.

1:00:40 Gus: Right. ​

1:00:40 Amy: But they are, by that point. ​

1:00:42 Gus: But she knows that they are. ​

1:00:43 Abby: And, I mean, they end up breaking up because he is not, like... She's really ​ independent and he specifically lists that as a thing that he doesn't love about her, but she's not willing to put up with stuff from him. And that leads to their break-up, which is fine and good.

1:01:01 Gus: Hey. This isn't the most on topic, but I'd like to mention how much I like the ​ thing Tamora Pierce does, where she writes break-ups that happen, and then the characters stay friends.

1:01:16 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:01:16 Aurora: Yeah, that was really nice. ​

1:01:17 Amy: I really like that. ​

1:01:19 Abby: Although, I have to say, the line where Alanna was like... Well, she was sad ​ about their relationship ending, but she knew their friendship would last a lot longer.

[laughter]

1:01:29 Gus: That was ironic and beautiful. ​

1:01:32 Abby: That's fun to read when you know Liam's gonna die by end of the book. ​

1:01:37 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:01:37 Gus: But I mean, that aside, which that's a great line, and I love it. There's so ​ much...

1:01:42 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:01:42 Gus: Irony in this book, and I love it. ​

1:01:44 Abby: There is a lot. ​

1:01:45 Gus: Tons of stuff about people being dead and never coming back. It's great. ​

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 34 of 54

1:01:51 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:01:52 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:01:53 Gus: But just like with Alanna's friendship with Jon after they break up is way better ​ than anything they've had before.

1:02:00 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:02:01 Gus: Even if I still do not like Jon. And she and Liam after they break up, it's like ​ they're friends and it's nice.

1:02:11 Abby: Right. And they still have the good things about their relationship, which I ​ thought it was cool that they could relate to each other as being like, legendary heroes, basically, like that was a cool dynamic and it was one that got to continue even when they weren't romantically involved.

1:02:27 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:02:28 Abby: Yeah, so we're not really even doing zombie author right now. ​

[laughter]

1:02:33 Abby: Yeah, so maybe we should move on to the ‘Queen's Riders’ and talk about ​ friendship.

1:02:39 Amy: Yeah. My best friends, Gary and Raoul come home. ​

[laughter]

1:02:43 Aurora: I think I have a full page of notes on Friendship Corner just 'cause... ​

1:02:47 Abby: Nice. ​

1:02:47 Aurora: There were a lot of things and they were really lovely. ​

1:02:49 Abby: Yeah. I've just been writing little hearts in my book at friendship moments, ​ and there were so many. I drew so many hearts.

1:02:56 Aurora: Do we get to go through them? ​

1:02:58 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:02:58 Abby: Yeah. No, just... ​

1:03:00 Gus: Yes. ​

1:03:00 Abby: Just say Friendship Moments. ​

1:03:01 Aurora: Okay, so when Alanna sees Raoul for the first time in a long time, ​ apparently, there's just a lot of hugging. They spend five minutes of non-coherent talking 'cause they're so excited to see each other and it was just really wonderful and sweet.

1:03:19 Abby: They like, just hug and yell for like five minutes before they can have rational ​

01/01/19 Page 35 of 54

conversations 'cause they're so excited.

1:03:26 Gus: It's so good and so realistic. ​

1:03:30 Amy: Also my favorite part of that is that the book calls Raoul her large friend. ​

1:03:34 Abby: Yes, it's so good. ​

[laughter]

1:03:36 Amy: It's so good. He is a large friend and I love it. ​

1:03:41 Abby: He's such a good friend. And... Okay, so the other Raoul one that I wanted to ​ mention is, when she's dueling all her old friends just for practice and for fun, and she beats Raoul really fast, and accuses him of not trying. And he says, "I'm just too used to you beating me. It's hard to change an old old habit."

[laughter]

1:04:05 Gus: I love him. ​

1:04:05 Abby: I love him. ​

1:04:07 Aurora: That's very good. ​

1:04:09 Abby: Yeah, so Raoul is really good, Gary's really good and also a big nerd. ​

1:04:13 Gus: Big nerd. ​

1:04:13 Aurora: He is. ​

1:04:14 Gus: Big old nerd. He's so interested in all the like, math that comes with, like, ​ running a kingdom. Wow.

1:04:21 Abby: Yeah. He just carries piles of documents around and Alanna is horrified. ​

[laughter]

1:04:27 Amy: Like same, I love him. My good friends. ​

1:04:33 Aurora: What a good friend. When… some of her newer female friends. ​

1:04:40 Abby: Yes. ​

1:04:40 Aurora: When she gets her ears pierced. ​

1:04:42 Gus: Yes. ​

1:04:42 Abby: So good. ​

1:04:44 Aurora: Oh, it was delightful. I mean, I love that it's just a room full of women, just ​ like being there having a good time laughing at Alanna for passing out and she gets...

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 36 of 54

1:04:55 Abby: Laughing at her so hard. ​

[laughter]

1:04:57 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:04:57 Abby: Yeah, like, you know, she's a full knight but she passes out when her ears are ​ pierced.

1:05:00 Gus: She comes around and it's like... ​

1:05:02 Abby: It's very good. ​

1:05:02 Gus: Thayet was just laughing, just laughing, and then the section ends. It's great. ​

1:05:08 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:05:08 Abby: I also wanna note in that, I mean, so Buri and Alanna's friendship is the best ​ thing ever, in so many ways constantly, but specifically when Buri and Thayet show up and Buri says like you know, ‘You two need to be fitted for clothes. Good luck. Bye.’

[laughter]

1:05:29 Abby: 'Cause she is just so uninterested in fashion. ​

1:05:32 Gus: She's so psyched that she gets to wear like just her regular stuff and that her ​ friends have to get all dressed up.

1:05:40 Abby: Yeah, I mean, I think she gets to wear very fancy K'miri garb, but... ​

1:05:44 Gus: Right. ​

1:05:44 Abby: She gets to just wear leggings and stuff. Yeah. ​

1:05:46 Gus: She already has it. She's comfortable with it. She doesn't have to get fitted for ​ it.

1:05:50 Abby: Yeah, it's great. But then, she and Alanna spend so much time together, riding ​ and meeting all of Alanna's friends, and exploring the palace. It's great.

1:06:01 Gus: And like exercising. ​

1:06:03 Abby: And then okay. And then when they get introduced at court, and Buri says ​ like, "Do I look okay?" And she's all in her K'miri outfit, and Alanna says, "Your mother and brother would be proud of you." And then Liam says, "We're proud of you, too."

1:06:24 Amy: The friendship! ​

1:06:25 Aurora: It was very sweet. ​

1:06:27 Gus: How dare you. ​

1:06:29 Amy: This book should have spent all the time on dumb love triangle stuff just with ​ friendship because the friendship moments are very good.

01/01/19 Page 37 of 54

1:06:36 Abby: They're sooo good. ​

1:06:38 Aurora: They're so nice. ​

1:06:38 Abby: All of the friendship is so good. ​

1:06:40 Amy: And when I say this book, I mean like the entire quartet, because I have it as ​ one volume.

[laughter]

1:06:45 Amy: I don't want anyone to think I just mean this book. I mean, every single book. ​

[laughter]

1:06:51 Aurora: I also wanted to give a shout out to Corram for being a great uncle and ​ friend and...

1:07:00 Abby: Dad. ​

1:07:00 Aurora: He does... And dad. Yeah, he's... He does some great. I mean, he plays a ​ great role in like all of these capacities. So you know, he teaches her to change a diaper, also he changed her diapers, which he points out all the time.

1:07:11 Abby: Yeah. And then. Okay, so when when she... He teaches her to change the ​ diaper and she feels like kind of sad, she's like ‘oh, like I could have... You could have had kids if I hadn't been here, like taking up your time,’ and then he says that he never regretted it because he was busy raising her.

[laughter]

1:07:30 Amy: Corram doesn't get enough dad credit because Myles just comes in and is a ​ fancy new dad with a lot of money and adopts her and Corram doesn't get enough dad credit.

1:07:39 Abby: They both are very good dads. ​

1:07:40 Amy: But no one else calls Corram her dad. ​

1:07:43 Abby: Okay but like, it's pretty clear with, you know, she doesn't even say it out ​ loud. "You could have had kids" and he's just like "Oh, I don't have any regrets about not having kids because I was raising you." He's her dad.

1:07:52 Gus: Yeah, Yeah. ​

1:07:53 Abby: We all know. ​

1:07:53 Amy: Yeah, but I want everyone in this book to acknowledge that Alanna has two ​ dads and their names are Corram and Myles, and her other dad did not do dad stuff.

1:08:02 Abby: Yeah. I mean Myles didn’t have a lot to do in this book, but when they were ​ reunited, he did cry a lot.

1:08:08 Amy: Yes! ​

1:08:08 Abby: And when they hugged, which was very sweet. ​

01/01/19 Page 38 of 54

1:08:08 Gus: Oh, it was so good. ​

1:08:10 Amy: Also the earrings. ​

1:08:10 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:08:11 Amy: Also the earrings, they're sweet. ​

1:08:13 Gus: He's such a good dad. ​

1:08:16 Amy: They're both good dads. ​

1:08:17 Gus: She has two good dads. ​

1:08:17 Amy: They're both really good dads. ​

1:08:19 Abby: They're so good. A lot of the stuff with Thom was really sad, but also just ​ really, really sweet.

1:08:25 Gus: I... It was so good to get actual interaction between them, for once. ​

1:08:29 Abby: Yeah, right. We haven't for so long, but I mean I... It... They reminded us of ​ the beginning of this book that the reason she's called the Lioness is because Thom got her a shield with a lioness on it.

1:08:39 Amy: Oh man... ​

1:08:40 Abby: 'Cause he supports her dreams. But there's just a lot of good Thom content ​ because like, there's a scene between Thom and Roger, where Roger asks, "Do you trust me?" and Thom says...

1:08:51 Gus: No. ​

1:08:52 Abby: "I don't trust anyone." And then, Roger immediately says, "Except your ​ sister." Thom's like, "Well, yeah."

1:08:58 Gus: Well, yeah. ​

1:09:01 Amy: Oh yeah, it's the meme, the "no trust." ​

[laughter]

1:09:03 Gus: One trust. ​

1:09:03 Amy: One trust. ​

1:09:04 Abby: Yeah one trust, which I mean, like that's the whole tragedy of Thom, is that... ​ Like, he doesn't have anyone that he can rely on except for Alanna.

1:09:13 Amy: And Alanna's gone. ​

1:09:13 Aurora: But like he loves Alanna so much. ​

1:09:16 Gus: Yeah. ​

01/01/19 Page 39 of 54

1:09:16 Abby: And, right. The other... Alanna tries to play off Roger by saying like, ‘There's ​ nothing to forgive. You gave me... You did me a favor.’ And then he just, Thom just like scoffs at her and he's like, ‘Nice try.’

[laughter]

1:09:29 Abby: Which is a very good sibling interaction. ​

1:09:32 Gus: Oh man. ​

1:09:33 Aurora: Animal friends? I have a moment that I loved and I circled, and I put a lot of ​ hearts and a lot of like 20 out 10s, and it was beautiful. So Moonlight...

1:09:46 Abby: Yeah okay. This is, I think, the best line in the book. But go for it. ​

[laughter]

1:09:50 Aurora: So can I read it? ​

1:09:52 Gus: Yes. ​

1:09:52 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:09:52 Amy: Yes. ​

1:09:52 Aurora: So after, you know, she drugs Moonlight or... ​

1:09:57 Abby: She... ​

1:09:58 Amy: Magic. ​

1:09:58 Aurora: Or magics Moonlight. ​

1:09:58 Abby: I'm not sure. Yeah. ​

1:10:00 Aurora: Because Moonlight would have broken down the stall to follow her up a ​ mountain.

1:10:03 Amy: She leaves Moonlight behind. ​

1:10:05 Aurora: Yeah. And so, she says, "There are times in every rider's life when it's ​ necessary to apologize to a horse, but Alanna preferred not to have witnesses”. And then she steals on Apple and pets Moonlight and compliments her, and tells her what a marvelous horse she is. And then even better, we get a Moonlight point of view moment, where Moonlight checks on her, on Alanna's withers and hooves and flanks, just like a horse to another horse, and it was lovely and beautiful.

1:10:34 Abby: Oh, it's so sweet. That's literally the best moment of animal friendship we've ​ had so far.

1:10:38 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:10:38 Abby: It's so good. ​

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1:10:39 Amy: I will say, on a different horse-related moment of animal friendship, Darkness ​ just saves Jonathan's life.

[laughter]

1:10:47 Abby: Yeah. ​

[laughter]

1:10:49 Abby: Yeah. I'm glad that that Darkness is still here just being Jonathan's very emo ​ horse.

1:10:54 Amy: Yeah. Yeah, like... The horse saves his life. Like, the horse fights a guy with a ​ knife, which I think is pretty good.

1:11:04 Gus: It's pretty good for a horse. ​

1:11:05 Abby: Pretty good. It's not as good as Alanna apologizing to Moonlight 'cause ​ sometimes you just gotta apologize to your horse.

1:11:11 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:11:11 Amy: Oh no. I mean, that is the best animal friendship moment in this book. I just ​ figured, if we were talking horse moment.

1:11:17 Gus: Oh yeah. ​

1:11:18 Amy: Like, Jonathan's horse saves his life. ​

1:11:22 Abby: Yeah. I mean Faithful is still up holding the patriarchy, but there were a couple ​ good Faithful moments in this as well. I liked his, you know, his... Death and...

[laughter]

1:11:34 Amy: Star Clan. ​

1:11:35 Abby: His Star Clan? ​

1:11:36 Amy: Star Clan. ​

1:11:37 Gus: You liked his death. ​

1:11:39 Abby: No. I mean, like, it was an emotionally affecting scene. ​

1:11:42 Gus: Yes. ​

1:11:42 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:11:43 Gus: Okay, that seemed... I didn't remember it having been as violent as it was. ​

1:11:48 Abby: It was very violent. ​

1:11:48 Gus: It's very violent. It was not a fun end. I just adopted a cat. I have always like... ​ I've always been a cat person so it would have been upsetting anyways, but I just adopted a cat and he's a small black cat, and it made me very upset to read Faithful dying... in that way.

01/01/19 Page 41 of 54

1:12:03 Aurora: It was horrifying. ​

1:12:04 Abby: Yeah, no. And right. He does it saving Alanna. ​

1:12:06 Gus: Yes. ​

1:12:07 Amy: But, that was a really upsetting scene to read and it was very visceral, like... ​

1:12:12 Gus: Yeah. And it wasn't even dwelled on or anything. It was just like one sentence, ​ and it was bad. It was bad to read.

1:12:20 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:12:20 Abby: Right. It's so quick at the end there, that Alanna loses her brother and then ​ her cat. And then...

1:12:28 Amy: Kills Alex. ​

1:12:30 Aurora: Her ex-lover. Yeah. ​

1:12:30 Abby: Yeah. Or kills Alex, and then loses her sword that she was all emotional about ​ in the past but like...

[laughter]

1:12:36 Gus: Loses her sword. ​

1:12:36 Abby: I mean, I know the sword is less important than a person, but like she just... ​ Like, it's a lot.

1:12:43 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:12:44 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:12:45 Abby: But yeah, the other Faithful thing that I wanted to mention is just, when ​ they're talking about Buri and how she's like, Alanna as a team. And Alanna says, "Surely, I didn't think I could beat an entire army single-handed." And Faithful says, "You still do," which is pretty cute.

1:13:01 Gus: It's so good. ​

1:13:02 Aurora: Yeah. I also liked... Who was it? The Goddess, apparently, is really good ​ buddies with Faithful, which despite the fact that, you know, we don't like Faithful, or the Goddess.

1:13:11 Amy: Or the Goddess. ​

1:13:12 Abby: Or the Goddess. They both enforce the patriarchy too much. ​

1:13:14 Aurora: They both enforce the patriarchy, but they are friends, and refer to each ​ other as such and... It's nice to have cat friends.

1:13:22 Abby: It's nice. ​

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1:13:22 Amy: Yeah. Okay, wait. If Faithful is not an... Okay. I don't know whether or not ​ Faithful is a normal cat. If Faithful's not a normal cat, then he groups himself like a regular cat, and he got set up with a lady cat. So what's going on? Secondly, he is a normal cat. He's a warrior cat, and he ascended to Star Clan.

1:13:40 Abby: Okay. So, I mean, how do you explain him talking to humans? ​

1:13:44 Amy: A lot of people project a lot, although Liam had like a really scared reaction to ​ it, which makes me think...

1:13:51 Abby: Several people have. ​

1:13:52 Amy: Yeah, but I think like, Liam was the first one in a while, where it was like, oh, ​ this is alarming to him.

1:13:57 Gus: Mm-hmm. ​

1:13:57 Amy: So, now I'm just trying to figure out whether like, all cats can talk to people, ​ and that's why Ali Mukhtab has so many, or like...

[laughter]

1:14:05 Abby: And I did think it was funny how often Alanna, by this book, is just casually ​ having conversations with Faithful in front of other people.

1:14:13 Amy: Yeah, and everybody's just kind of like okay with it. Everybody just lets that ​ happen.

1:14:18 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:14:19 Amy: I don't... You know, there's a lot of things that I don't understand about ​ Faithful, but he does... What I'm saying is, he does a lot of normal cat stuff, so if he's not a normal cat, what's up with that?

1:14:32 Abby: I mean, I would say that he is a cat, for sure. Just not a normal one. ​

1:14:37 Gus: Yeah, so he's still does cat things, he just has extra abilities on top of it. ​

1:14:41 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:14:41 Abby: I mean, Alanna's a very magical human. Faithful's a very magical cat. ​

1:14:45 Amy: Okay, so it's the third sibling turned into a cat. ​

[laughter]

1:14:51 Abby: Not to cut off your super good fan theories, Amy, but we are... Our next ​ segment is the one where you have to leave and we say these things behind your back.

1:15:00 Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Give me a minute. Bye. I'll miss you. ​

1:15:03 Abby: So Amy is leaving, and there's gonna be some music and then there's gonna ​ be some spoilers, and then there'll be some more music. So if you don't wanna hear the spoilers, fast forward to the next music.

01/01/19 Page 43 of 54

[music]

1:15:19 Abby: I don't have a lot of stuff, but just like, speaking of, which we didn't actually ​ do in this episode, so never mind. Not speaking of, but there's so much pair the spares in this book and then also just like, future pair the spares, with Raoul and Buri.

1:15:34 Aurora: Oh yeah. ​

1:15:34 Gus: I... First of all, Raoul and Buri is going to happen. I don't think we should ​ discuss it until it happens.

1:15:42 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:15:42 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:15:42 Abby: We can discuss it when it happens. ​

1:15:44 Gus: 'Cause I wanna actually re-read it first, and also I love it. So I refuse to refer to ​ it as pair the spares, even though that's what it is.

1:15:51 Abby: Just in the context of this book, it seems so pair the spares. ​

1:15:53 Gus: It does. Yeah. ​

1:15:54 Abby: I mean, they've barely met as of this book. ​

1:15:57 Gus: They don't get together, for like 16 years. ​

1:16:00 Abby: I know, it takes yeah. A lot of time. ​

1:16:02 Aurora: A lot of time. So... The Crooked God made an appearance. ​

1:16:10 Abby: He did, yeah. ​

1:16:11 Aurora: And it was very brief and very exciting, and I really liked the line that it said ​ that, "The Crooked God, his smile as wicked as George's own." I'm like, hey, hey.

1:16:19 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:16:20 Aurora: We're gonna talk about this more. ​

1:16:22 Gus: I love him... ​

1:16:23 Aurora: It was, I love him a lot. ​

1:16:25 Abby: I'm excited in general about like... So we got the Crooked God, and we also ​ got the Hags.

1:16:28 Gus: Yes. ​

1:16:29 Aurora: Yeah. Oh, the Hags. ​

1:16:30 Abby: Which is very exciting. ​

1:16:31 Gus: Yes. ​

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1:16:31 Abby: And then, I mean, we also got references to the Copper Isles on Carthak, ​ which is just good setup for the future, and I'm really excited to get to those places and see those people.

1:16:41 Gus: Yes. Oh man. ​

1:16:43 Abby: Okay, I think that's mostly it. ​

1:16:44 Gus: That's pretty much it. ​

1:16:45 Abby: We can call Amy back. It was a quick section. ​

1:16:47 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:16:48 Aurora: When is Amy gonna learn about the cat? Is it really gonna take all the way ​ into...

1:16:53 Abby: I mean, are we gonna wait until Beka Cooper? ​

1:16:55 Gus: But the cat doesn't come back until Beka Cooper anyway, so it's not like we'll be ​ talking about the cat.

1:17:00 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:17:00 Aurora: That's true. ​

1:17:00 Abby: I mean, it's not like really... There's not like a lot more. ​

1:17:01 Gus: There's not a lot more. Yeah. ​

[music]

1:17:10 Abby: We're back. ​

1:17:10 Amy: Hi. ​

1:17:11 Abby: With Amy now. ​

1:17:12 Amy: Hi. ​

1:17:12 Aurora: Hey, Amy. ​

1:17:13 Abby: So let's move on to ‘Chamber of the Ordeal’ and rate this stuff. Let's, I guess, ​ start with animal friendship, 'cause we talked about that recently.

1:17:22 Aurora: It was good. ​

1:17:24 Amy: It was good. ​

1:17:24 Abby: It was good. ​

1:17:25 Gus: It was good. ​

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 45 of 54

1:17:26 Amy: Good out of 10. ​

1:17:27 Abby: I still think I... There's a long way to go up from here that I'm aware of, so I ​ think, curving my scale with that in mind, I'd say, maybe just like a five out of 10, or a six out of 10, maybe I'll go with the six out of 10.

1:17:41 Aurora: I'd give it a 6.5 'cause it was just... I love the horse. ​

1:17:46 Abby: I mean, that interaction with Moonlight, it was just the best. ​

1:17:50 Gus: I'm not even a horse person and I still loved it. So like, yeah, I think I might go ​ with a steady six out of 10.

1:17:57 Amy: I feel like it's disrespectful to Faithful to not give this a high ranking for Faithful ​ literally dying for his friend.

[laughter]

1:18:05 Gus: I'm okay with disrespecting him. ​

1:18:07 Amy: That's true. He's... ​

1:18:08 Gus: He's a misogynist. ​

1:18:08 Amy: He supports the patriarchy. ​

1:18:10 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:18:11 Abby: Yeah. Faithful is really the character who I think has suffered most on this ​ re-read for me, because as a kid, he was an awesome magical cat friend. And now, he's a magical cat friend who enforces the patriarchy and asks her when she's gonna get married.

[laughter]

1:18:27 Amy: Okay, that's true. I'm gonna give this an eight out of 10 though, because I ​ don't know what animal stuff is gonna happen next.

1:18:33 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:18:33 Amy: So I'm going off of my own thing. And also, there were other horse moments ​ like, Alanna just like, would reminisce about jumping over a gorge with her best friend, Moonlight.

1:18:43 Abby: That's pretty good, too. We didn't even mention that earlier. ​

1:18:45 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:18:46 Abby: Okay, but let's talk about nostalgia readings. ​

1:18:49 Gus: I would give this, honestly, a 10 out of 10 for nostalgia. This is the... Just in ​ terms... I know this is 100% because I'm just coming off of the previous three books...

1:19:01 Abby: Yeah. ​

01/01/19 Page 46 of 54

1:19:01 Gus: And it's so very different in terms of my reaction to them. It just feels like a ​ very drastic leap into what I just really feel is classic Tamora Pierce. Like, this is the stuff I'm here for.

1:19:16 Abby: Yeah. ​

1:19:17 Gus: We get Thayet. We get Buri. I love them both. ​

1:19:20 Abby: Yeah, no. I think I'll give it a nine out of 10, largely for Thayet and Buri ​ showing up. But also just, I mean, the good friendship in general. Alanna being incredibly powerful and wonderful.

1:19:33 Gus: Yes. ​

1:19:33 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:19:34 Abby: And, yeah. ​

1:19:35 Aurora: Same. ​

1:19:36 Abby: I mean, the Thom feelings, Alex feelings. I mean, it's good stuff. I'd give it a ​ nine out of 10.

1:19:41 Aurora: Yeah. So many feels. I'd probably also give it like an eight or nine. It was... ​ There was... I had a good time reading it.

1:19:47 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:19:48 Amy: So, I can't have nostalgia for it, so can my rating just be, did Amy cry? ​

1:19:53 Gus: Yes. ​

1:19:53 Abby: Sure. ​

1:19:54 Amy: Yes, she did. ​

[laughter]

1:20:00 Abby: Good rating. Solid. ​

1:20:00 Gus: Amy, I'm sorry we have a whole rating system that you are excluded from, so ​ feel free to say whatever you want.

1:20:05 Amy: Okay. ​

[laughter]

1:20:06 Abby: Going off the last two episodes, it's everyone rates it on nostalgia and Amy ​ makes up her own different rating that changes at her whim.

1:20:14 Gus: Yes. ​

1:20:15 Amy: Alright. What's Amy feeling? Cry. ​

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 47 of 54

1:20:20 Abby: Okay. Good. And who would you all recommend this book to? Okay, I would ​ say, I would recommend it to pretty much anyone who wants to... Who can read adult romance, like complicated romantic relationships and sexual relationships. But honestly, I would tell people to just read this book and not start with the rest of the series, like start with a different Tamora Pierce series. But you can read this book as a stand-alone, I think. So, I'd recommend it widely.

1:20:51 Gus: Right, especially if you're reading it as a prequel so like, you've read the other ​ stuff and you're going back and filling stuff in.

1:21:00 Aurora: I similarly would recommend this to slightly older audiences because of the ​ maturity of...

1:21:05 Abby: Right, not like middle graders. ​

1:21:07 Aurora: Yeah and it would... It's nice for audience to have slightly more experience, ​ and experience with media, so they can really engage with it fully. So there were a lot of good things, but it's nice to be able to critically look at Liam's behavior, and that darn cat...

1:21:26 Amy: I would say I... I would recommend it to pretty much a lot of people because ​ it's a stand-alone, but honestly, I'd recommend it to everyone I know because there is a scene where a woman fights an ape with a sword.

[laughter]

1:21:42 Abby: That's fair. ​

1:21:43 Amy: You don't have to care about any other part of it, but, yeah, so if I'm... Do you ​ know what... No, that's my whole answer.

1:21:52 Abby: Good, solid. ​

1:21:53 Gus: Cool. Yeah. You all are pointing out that you can read it as a stand-alone, which ​ I think is a very good point. And I hadn't considered in my... When I was thinking about this question earlier, but, yeah. I think you all had the right reading order for this. We've discussed that I'm the only one that read the Alanna books first, with the notable exception, of course, of Amy.

1:22:18 Abby: Sorry, Amy. ​

[laughter]

1:22:21 Amy: Well, to be fair I've read Kel first, but only one. ​

1:22:24 Gus: You did read First Test first. That's true, but I think this is good to read as a ​ ​ ​ prequel. I think it's also like, I know we're a little maybe, hesitant to... Certainly some of the misogyny and stuff is stuff that maybe you wouldn't want to be exposed to as a young kid, but also, I think it's questioned enough in this book that I don't think that makes it an issue. It's an issue, obviously. It's something that you would want to read critically, but I think that it's questioned enough in the text that I wouldn't have the same reservations about giving this to a kid, as I would with the other books.

1:23:07 Abby: Uhm, yeah. ​

01/01/19 Page 48 of 54

1:23:08 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:23:09 Abby: And the previous books in this series each have such clear and obvious issues ​ that would make me not wanna recommend it like, I mean, the first two have a lot of sort of gender and sexual trauma. And then, the third one has very clear and present race issues and... right... This one has things to be critical about, but it doesn't have any single glaring flaw like that. So, obviously, every book should be read critically, but definitely recommend this more widely.

1:23:46 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:23:47 Abby: Okay, let's move on to ‘Palace Gossip’. I have a letter here from Thom ​ Trebond, who asked us, or I know we've already talked about this to some extent, but mentions that Tamora Pierce, who he refers to as Tammy, which...

1:24:09 Amy: People do this. ​

1:24:09 Abby: Is just the thing that I know people do it. It just breaks my brain. But anyway, ​ Thom Trebond says that... ‘Tammy actually said that Robert was bisexual, not gay’, and that he posits that he's very much one of the characters that contribute to a stigma against non-monosexual people. The books don't make that clear, but there is, specifically, a "villainous bisexual trope" that he very much fills with femininity in terms of fashion sense and stuff, and then phallic imagery and power plays. That's what they say, he. Yeah.

1:24:50 Gus: Yeah, I think you definitely see the villainous, bisexual trope is really linked to a ​ character type who uses sexuality manipulatively, and in order to accomplish goals and without regard for the gender of the person who they are making advances towards. So, obviously, that sort of stuff is purely subtext here.

1:25:19 Abby: Yeah, right. And additionally, it's all subtext but if you read subtext into his ​ various relationships, then he would also fit into the sort of trope or stereotype of bisexuals being promiscuous. So...

1:25:34 Gus: I think we can pretty clearly point to him being coded as bisexual. ​

1:25:40 Abby: Especially in this book, when we do get the textual reference to him sleeping ​ with Delia, which I don't know if we've mentioned before, that she's more of an out and out villain than some of the male characters, but that's also a creepy, manipulative age difference relationship.

1:25:57 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:25:57 Aurora: Yeah. ​

1:25:57 Gus: It definitely is. I think we've mentioned her in talking about the people who ​ Roger surrounds himself with.

1:26:03 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:26:03 Abby: Yeah. But right, given that that's actually the only textual sexual relationship ​ that he has, definitely a manipulative one.

1:26:11 Gus: There's a point... I don't know what we can exactly draw from this, since it's ​ Alanna having a dream and we don't know to what extent her dreams are based in reality, but Alanna has a dream where Roger is like being very... How would you characterize... And he's

01/01/19 Page 49 of 54

being very, he's kind of like hitting on her or something.

1:26:32 Abby: Yeah, he does get kind of flirty with her at points. ​

1:26:35 Gus: Yeah, I don't know. It's just... I think... I mean that was something that I ​ thought kind of played into that, but...

1:26:41 Abby: Also, this is not really flirting it's just banter, but I really liked when they ​ actually met up face-to-face, and she was like, ‘Oh good. We're not pretending that we like each other’, and she's like, "You look pale, not enough time in the sun?" [laughter] And then ​ ​ he's like, "You're cocky, aren't you? Killed anyone recently?"

[laughter]

1:26:57 Gus: Oh, I love it! ​

1:27:00 Abby: And she said, "No, it's so depressing to come back and find one's work ​ reversed." So that was just some really good banter that they did.

1:27:05 Gus: Oh, man! ​

1:27:06 Amy: Yeah, he's good when he's like an affable villain, but usually, he is a ​ manipulative villain, and a very, again, queer-coded villain.

1:27:16 Abby: Yeah, no, I think there's problematic elements to his queer coding. I think he's ​ a good villain, in general. He's creepy, and manipulative, and that's bad. I wish it wasn't tied up with the most queer rep that we get in this series.

1:27:30 Amy: Right. Oh yeah, I mean that's more what I mean. ​

1:27:32 Gus: 'Cause there's nothing inherently wrong with having a queer villain. Okay? Like, ​ let's clear that up. There's nothing inherently wrong with having villains who are queer. There is something wrong when that is, as you said, the most queer rep that you get in the large majority of this entire universe.

1:27:50 Amy: Yeah, and it's historically wrapped up in this idea that we cannot have queer ​ people who have good lives, and happy endings because we... I can't tie queerness up with morality due to just our history as a people.

1:28:05 Abby: Right. Well, and specifically that he is Word of God bisexual and he uses his ​ seductive, manipulative bisexuality for his villainy.

1:28:16 Gus: Yes. ​

1:28:16 Abby: So he's not just a villain who is queer, but his queerness is so inherently tied ​ to his villainy.

1:28:21 Amy: Exactly. ​

1:28:21 Gus: Right, so that it becomes something where you're not sure if he were a real ​ person in the modern day, would he just... Would he identify as bisexual, or is this a thing he is doing as a tool? And the blurriness between that is not a good thing to have in a villain.

1:28:41 Abby: Not great. ​

01/01/19 Page 50 of 54

1:28:41 Amy: Right. ​

1:28:41 Abby: Nope. ​

1:28:41 Gus: As your closest thing to a queer character on the page. ​

1:28:46 Amy: Actually, I think that the thing I said earlier about Liam and Roger and me ​ being like okay with that is because that is not a... That would not be a relationship in which Roger was specifically manipulating someone. That would be Roger being bisexual for the sake of being bisexual. Does that... That was a weird way to say that.

[laughter]

1:29:07 Abby: No, I mean I get what you're saying. I think I don't really feel the need to ​ parse out how much I ship each of Roger's specific relationships [laughter] 'cause it's none for ​ ​ all of them.

1:29:16 Amy: I am not coming at it from there. I'm just saying that, were there to be a ​ relationship with Roger that was not explicitly related to his villainy, I would be more comfortable with him being a bisexual villain. I don't need to do a ship war don’t at me.

[laughter]

1:29:32 Abby: Yeah. Anyway, thomtrebond, thank you for the question. ​

[laughter]

1:29:37 Amy: Thank you. ​

1:29:38 Abby: Or the discussion point, I guess. ​

1:29:39 Gus: Yeah. ​

1:29:40 Abby: And yeah, I guess I'll also read the people who have interacted with us on ​ Twitter. Thank you for doing that. Thanks to ziggytshutz, rebecca_sw, indigohan, writerstmcgee, katherinenzr, koalabeanz, aquadrop25... I just put us in here also.

[laughter]

1:30:02 Gus: Yeah, thanks, Abby. ​

[laughter]

1:30:04 Gus: Read our names! Read our names! ​

1:30:04 Amy: Read our names! ​

1:30:05 Abby: Okay. Aurorarborealis, nonbinosaur, amymgiac, heliological, alexandra_coke ​ and blacknessdyer.

1:30:13 Gus: Thank you for crediting us for interacting with our own Twitter. ​

1:30:16 Amy: So some of those weren't us. ​

1:30:19 Abby: Hey, we were in the notifications. I just wrote down everyone in the ​

01/01/19 Page 51 of 54

notifications.

[laughter]

1:30:23 Amy: Yeah. I mean, all of our tweets are really good. ​

1:30:25 Gus: They are. ​

1:30:26 Abby: They are... So you should check them out. ​

1:30:27 Aurora: Oh, totally. ​

1:30:28 Abby: And also, you should interact with us on Twitter at @TortallRecall, or our ​ personal accounts, if you want to. They were in that list. You can find us.

[laughter]

1:30:35 Gus: Yeah, feel free to become our friends! ​

1:30:37 Amy: Yeah! ​

1:30:38 Abby: Yeah, become our friends. ​

1:30:39 Amy: I thrive off of internet friendship. ​

1:30:42 Abby: You can also become our friend at our Tumblr at tortallrecall.tumblr.com or ​ you can send us an email, [email protected] or you can go to our website, tortallrecall.com. Or you can look us up on iTunes, where we're called Tortall Recall.

[laughter]

1:31:01 Abby: And you can leave us a rating or review. ​

[laughter]

1:31:02 Gus: I would say that you can just google Tortall Recall but you can't because you'll ​ just get a bunch of results that are like, "Did you mean Total Recall?"

1:31:10 Abby: It's so true. I mean you can... If you google it in quotes, you're probably good. ​

1:31:14 Gus: Probably. I haven't tried that 'cause I'm not good at technology and computers. ​

1:31:17 Abby: Actually, I think we're now at the point where if you google Tortall Recall, it'll ​ say, "Did you mean Total Recall?" But then it will actually give you our website.

1:31:25 Gus: Oh nice. ​

1:31:26 Abby: So you can go do that. ​

1:31:27 Amy: [quietly awed] The big time! ​ ​ ​

1:31:29 Abby: Wow. ​

[laughter]

01/01/19 Page 52 of 54

1:31:31 Gus: Recognized by Google. ​

[laughter]

1:31:34 Abby: We should mention that we're planning on taking a little break before we start ​ with the Daine series, Immortals. We're not totally sure what we're gonna do for the next episode but we will let you know...

1:31:45 Gus: Yep. ​

1:31:46 Abby: When we know about it. ​

1:31:46 Gus: We'll definitely have at least one episode next month. ​

1:31:49 Abby: Yep. ​

1:31:50 Gus: In case you were curious, our actual episode release schedule is that we read ​ one book a month and we release our episodes on the first and third Saturdays of the month, roughly.

[laughter]

1:32:01 Abby: Yeah, and we'll see how this changes 'cause I do think we might hit some ​ books in the future where we need more than two hours to talk about them.

1:32:08 Amy: Yeah. Okay. ​

[laughter]

1:32:10 Abby: Or this episode is actually gonna be significantly over an hour, so... More than ​ however long we're taking right now.

1:32:16 Aurora: Oh my goodness. ​

[laughter]

1:32:18 Abby: But yeah, I think that's about it. ​

[Greensleeves begins fading in.]

1:32:20 Abby: Amy, Aurora, someone wanna sign us out? ​

1:32:23 Amy: Aurora, do you have your heart in this? ​

1:32:26 Aurora: Amy, I believe in you. ​

1:32:28 Amy: Okay, wait. See you, Tortallini. ​

1:32:32 Abby: You did a great job. ​

1:32:47 Abby: I'm gonna stop recording because this is absurdly long. Okay? ​

1:32:50 Amy: Yeah. ​

1:32:52 Gus: 50 minutes. Holy ****! ​

01/01/19 Page 53 of 54

[Greensleeves continues, then fades out.]

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