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Home , Aaron Sorkin, A Few Good Men, A Few Good Men (play), Dan Rather, Jesse Eisenberg, Olivia Munn

Aaron Sorkin: The Big Interview Episode Number: 01 Episode Title: Description: First up — Oscar-winning screenwriter Aaron Sorkin. We sit down with Sorkin to talk about the fictional news channel he created for his latest show, The Newsroom, and his successful career as a screenwriter for both memorable TV series and movies. He opens up about something he says he’s not used to hearing, criticism. And also tells us who was his initial favorite to play the President on . It wasn’t .

ACT 1: TEASE

DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)

TONIGHT, A MAN BEHIND THE CAMERA WHO HAS BECOME A BIG-TIME HOLLYWOOD HEAVYWEIGHT...SCREENWRITER AARON SORKIN...THE BIG INTERVIEW...

AARON SORKIN

I think that we're-- becoming more and more entertained by other people falling down. It's cheap. It's easy. And I-- I think it's gonna be the quickest thing that turns us into a bunch o' punks.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

TO UNDERSTAND AARON SORKIN’S POPULARITY IN HOLLYWOOD, CONSIDER THIS. WHEN HBO BEGAN PROMOTING THE SECOND SEASON OF THE NEWSROOM, IT DIDN’T JUST SEND OUT THE SHOW’S STARS ON A PROMOTIONAL TOUR, BUT THE SERIES CREATOR...AND WRITER. NOW HOW OFTEN DOES A WRITER GET MORE THAN A PASSING MENTION IN THE CREDITS? NEVER, UNLESS IT’S AARON SORKIN…

ACT 2

DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)

FOR ALL THE ATTENTION AND ACCOLADES THAT HAVE COME SORKIN’S WAY THROUGH TELEVISION AND FILMS, IT WAS HERE ON BROADWAY THAT HE BEGAN HIS CAREER...AS A PLAYWRIGHT. AT THE MUSIC BOX THEATER IN 1989 SORKIN’S FIRST PLAY PREMIERED...IT WAS CALLED …. AND IT WAS AN INSTANT HIT.

TOM CRUISE, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

“So Santiago shouldn’t have been in any danger at all, should he have?”

1 RATHER (VOICE OVER)

A FEW YEARS LATER IT WAS MADE INTO A MOVIE STARRING , ...AND ONE VERY FAMOUS LINE:

JACK NICHOLSON, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

You want answers?

TOM CRUISE, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

I think I’m entitled.

JACK NICHOLSON, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

You want answers…

TOM CRUISE, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

I want !

JACK NICHOLSON, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

You can’t handle the truth.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

SORKIN’S TALENTS WERE QUICKLY TRANSFORMED TO TELEVISION WHERE HE BECAME FAMOUS... AND A TOP DOLLAR TALENT FOR THE HIT TELEVISION SERIES “THE WEST WING”, A PROGRAM HE CREATED ABOUT A FICTIONAL PRESIDENT AND HIS STAFF WHICH RAN ON NBC FOR SEVEN SEASONS...

MARTIN SHEEN, THE WEST WING

What does he think congress is going to find out that we won’t?

RICHARD SCHIFF, THE WEST WING

He doesn’t think the AG is objective.

MARTIN SHEEN, THE WEST WING

The AG hates us, we hate him. It doesn’t get more objective than that.

2 RATHER (VOICE OVER)

IT WON DOZENS OF AWARDS AND WAS A BIG RATINGS HIT. AND CRITICS--BY AND LARGE--LOVED IT TOO....

CHARLIE WILSON, CHARLIE WILSON’S WAR, 2007

Why are you only asking me questions you already know the answer to?

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

HE WENT ON TO MAKE IT BIG AT THE BOX OFFICE WITH MOVIES LIKE THE STORY OF FINANCING ’S REBELS AGAINST THE RUSSIANS IN CHARLIE WILSON’S WAR WITH ….

BRAD PITT, , 2011

Text me the play-by-play.

JONAH HILL, MONEYBALL, 2011

What? Why?

BRAD PITT, MONEYBALL, 2011

I don’t watch the games.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

THE TALE OF A LOW-BUDGET TEAM THAT BEATS THE ODDS IN MONEYBALL WITH BRAD PITT.

JESSE EISENBERG, , 2010

The first thing we are going to need is a lot of pictures.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

AND THE SOCIAL NETWORK, A FILM ABOUT THE CREATION OF THAT WON HIM AN OSCAR.

JESSE EISENBERG, THE SOCIAL NETWORK, 2010

3 They are suggesting I was jealous of Eduardo for getting punched by the Phoenix and began a plan to screw him out of a company I hadn’t even invented yet.

LAWYER, THE SOCIAL NETWORK, 2010

WERE YOU?

JESSE EISENBERG, THE SOCIAL NETWORK, 2010

Jealous of Eduardo?

LAWYER #2, THE SOCIAL NETWORK, 2010

Stop typing, we are off the record.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

SORKIN’S SIGNATURE WRITING STYLE OF RAPID, SMART DIALOGUE AND QUICK EXCHANGES BETWEEN CHARACTERS ENCOURAGES, SOME WOULD SAY FORCES, THE AUDIENCE TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION...

OLIVIA MUNN, THE NEWSROOM

So you would like my permission to…

DEV PATEL, THE NEWSROOM

Jump in there and invent heinous and incendiary lies about you, end the intelligent debate and a whole new one about say whether or not you are a whore…

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

AND IT OFTEN HAPPENS WITH THE ACTORS IN MOTION...IN WHAT HAS BECOME SIGNATURE SORKIN...THE .

JEFF DANIELS, THE NEWSROOM

I need you to tell me right now you are not using that as a promo slot.

CHRIS MESSINA, THE NEWSROOM

We are not but [unintel] researched the hell out of this at Northwestern and the feedback we keep getting, especially from 18-49s is just studded with green flags.

4 RATHER

I love that championship season, I’ve seen that play three times. Wonderful play.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

IN BETWEEN PROJECTS I CAUGHT UP WITH AARON SORKIN IN NEW YORK TO TALK ABOUT HIS GROWING LIST OF CREDENTIALS... AND SOMETHING HE HAS NOT SEEN OR HEARD MUCH BEFORE THE NEWSROOM...CRITICISM.

RATHER

What question did you come here today wanting most to answer about Newsroom?

AARON SORKIN

What a nice way to begin an interview. I-- I would love to answer any question-- that the show's critics-- have. I've heard the criticism-- of the show. And-- I find it-- the-- so many people are maddened-- by the show, the-- the-- it really makes their blood boil.

RATHER

Does that surprise you?

SORKIN

It-- it does. Here's why. I think that there's an impression out there that-- I'm trying to teach a lesson to professional journalists, that I've set the show in the recent past in order to say, "Here's how you should've done it."

And I'm-- I'm happy to have the chance, and I think that this is probably-- I-- I couldn't say it to a more appropriate person, it's absolutely the furthest thing-- from my mind. Looking back and seeing I can see how-- it might seem that way. And of course I can how if you see it that way you can be insulted by that. The show is set in the recent past not so that I can leverage hindsight into an I-told-you-so-- moment-- but simply because I like the audience dynamic of when the audience knows more than the characters do.

So that when a news report comes over the wire that protests are breaking out-- at our embassy in Cairo and that another one has out in front of our consulate in Benghazi the audience-- knows that trouble's ahead. We can watch our characters-- do this process story. I have a bachelor of fine arts degree in musical theater. I'm ill-equipped to-- I have no sophistication at all when it comes to or politics. I'm writing-- a workplace-- show. My only ambition-- is-- is to entertain you.

RATHER

5 I'm gonna challenge you a little here. You wrote The West Wing, one o' the most successful entertainment programs, and I mean that as a compliment because in the end you have to entertain. Whether you have a message or not you...

SORKIN

In the end and in the beginning. That-- you must entertain.

RATHER

Right. And then you write The Newsroom. So it's-- it's a tough sell to tell me that you don't know much about politics or journalism. I-- I-- you know a lot about both.

SORKIN

I am not aw-shucks-ing (PH) it-- when I tell you this. I think that writing a show that takes place in a newsroom-- is to actually doing the news what drawing a building is to building a building. Which is to say they're almost unrelated, just about-- unrelated. If I have-- a talent it's a phonetic-- talent. And I-- I truly enjoy the sound of smart people arguing with each other. I-- I grew up-- with that. I've-- I've always-- I've always been surrounded by people who are smarter than I am, from-- from my family at the dinner table-- to my friends.

And-- I was not made to feel inferior by that. I was not made to resent that. I-- I really enjoyed the-- the sound of it. And-- and I wanted to imitate that sound when-- when I began writing. From time to time I write about politics. And again I don't do-- I'm not a political advocate. I've met political advocates. And-- and I am not them. They're-- they're the real thing. I have the political sophistication roughly of-- somebody who-- who reads the newspaper every day.

And even at that I'll-- I'll read op-ed. Then I go straight to the sports section. And-- and that's my level of political sophistication. But just as if you have a medical problem you do not want the writing staff of Grey's Anatomy to be working on you, if you have-- a question about media or politics you don't want me.

RATHER

Well, let me read you something that one of your colleagues from HBO which of course carries the program says. And I quote, says, "The show clearly has a comment to make about the state of the news and journalism," unquote. My question is what is that comment?

SORKIN

I have two concerns. And I think that the show-- does make this point from time to time. One, we should want to be better informed than we are. But two-- and this is my greater concern-- just for us-- just for

6 who we are as people I think that we're-- becoming more and more entertained by other people falling down.

And-- it's-- it's cheap. It's easy. And I-- I think it's gonna be the quickest thing that turns us into a bunch o' punks. Whether it's Casey Anthony-- and people watching that like it's-- it's a terrific reality show which frankly is-- is what it's being packaged as--

RATHER

It's true--

SORKIN

--and-- and given to us-- or just the kind of day-to-day snarkiness of-- of-- of pointing at someone else and-- and-- and being entertained by how they fell, the early rounds of a television talent competition-- where the idea is-- really we're laughing at the oddity of people thinking that they have talent when they don't, that kinda thing. I just think that it's making us mean and dumb in a quick hurry.

RATHER

Well, lemme talk to you as a lifetime journalist to a consumer, you said that-- that's your approach is—

SORKIN

Yes--

RATHER

--news consumer, and give it to us straight up, no chaser, what are we doing that makes you angry or disappointed in journalism in its present state? What are we doing that we shouldn't be doing from a consumer's standpoint, a person who's a consumer of news, interested, cares about news?

SORKIN

I know that you want it straight up with no chaser. But here's the problem. First of all I'm talking to Dan Rather. And the idea that I could tell you-- what the news is doing wrong, I'm sorry. I can't-- I won't do that. I'd be a fool. The second thing is I don't know what system I would possibly replace capitalism with. It-- it's-- it's a good one. But there's a problem. A news program's got a mandate to make money-- like anything else. You do that with ratings.

And you get ratings by showing stories that are fun-- and-- and not necessarily-- the stories that need reporting. This is your interview. And I don't wanna take the steering wheel away from you. But I have to ask you, you've spent a lifetime reporting on terribly important stories that weren't necessarily fun. Your audience isn't gonna know that before interview began you and I were talking about-- Charlie

7 Wilson and the in Afghanistan. Nobody at could've thought, "This one's gonna bring in the money, let's send Dan Rather to the mountains of-- of Afghanistan." How-- how-- how did it work then? RATHER

Well, I worked with and for people-- who believed that doing quality news of integrity was important and counted for something, that it mattered, their number one priority is let's do the news. And we'll try to take care o' the ratings and the demographics as best we can. But you're the interview subject here. So I wanna get back to…

SORKIN

Okay. I and forgive me for that. But I do think you just gave the best answer to the question that there could be. Am I not mistaken that there used to be a firewall between the news division and the entertainment division-- at-- at a network.

And that at CBS-- there was-- a primetime entertainment lineup, a daytime-- entertainment lineup-- that made a ton o' money and that that allowed you to do 30 or 60 minutes-- of news and not worry about the ratings. That's what-- it's what , and Green Acres, and F Troop, and I Dream of Jeannie were for-- was to make money-- RATHER

That's true.. SORKIN

Okay. We need to rebuild the firewall--

ACT 3

DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)

AARON SORKIN HAS AN AFFINITY FOR IMAGINING WHAT GOES ON BEHIND-THE- SCENES.

PETER KRAUSE,

Are you telling me the ice cleared, the goalies just came out of the net and they just started going after each other?

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

HE MADE HIS TELEVISION DEBUT WITH SPORTS NIGHT ON ABC IN 1998...THE SERIES TOOK PLACE ON THE SET OF A SPORTS NEWS PROGRAM. AND STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET

8 STRIP ON NBC WAS A FICTIONAL GLIMPSE INTO THE MAKING OF A TYPE SKETCH COMEDY SHOW....

BRADLEY WHITFORD, STUDIO 60

I’ve been watching you this week and I gotta tell you. I love what I see.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

THOUGH ACCLAIMED BY MANY CRITICS, THAT ONE ONLY LASTED A SINGLE SEASON.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

Tell me about the process. You're a writer?

AARON SORKIN

Yeah.

RATHER

How does the process work?

SORKIN

The process in television, in series television is different than it is when I'm writing a play or a movie. When I'm writing a play or movie I have all the time in the world really. I-- I'll feel some heat from the studio saying, "When are you gonna get it. When are we gonna get it."

But if I say to them, "You know, it's not going well. I said I'd deliver it in June but it's gonna have to be September," they may not like it but they'll understand. And this is how these things are born. Series television there is no time. The schedule is ferocious. It-- it's sort of a mash unit. There are hard air dates that you have to meet. And that means that you have to write when you're not writing well. And then you have to point a camera at it. And then you have to show it to everybody. And that's the way it goes.

So the process is we have ten days, ten working days-- to make a 55-minute feature film. If you were doing a movie you would have a couple o' years to do what-- what we do in ten days. So I have a couple of months before the season starts-- to start planning the season-- and-- and thinking about it. And it's the thinking that-- that takes the longest.

Once I know what I'm doing-- and it really boils down to intention and obstacle. That-- that's all drama is. Somebody wants something. Something's standing in their way of getting it. They want the money. They want the girl. They want to get to Philadelphia. It doesn't matter. They've just got-- they've gotta

9 want it. If they need it that's even better. Something, whatever is the obstacle, it has to be formidable. You can't be able to get rid of it with a phone call or why didn't they just walk around-- the obstacle.

Once I know what the intention and obstacle is then we get to the part of writing that I love. We've-- 'cause we've just gotten through the part of writing that makes you wanna put your head through a wall. Now we're at the part of writing-- that I love. And then-- once I've written it we get to the part of doing a television show that I love which is getting to work with the-- the cast and the crew coming down to the floor-- and really doing it.

We have by the way the best cast and crew you could-- you could hope for. Each-- there're always three episodes on the stove-- on different burners. There's the one that I'm writing, the one that we're shooting and the one that's in post-production, the one that's being edited-- scored--

RATHER

Kind of an assembly line of sorts?

SORKIN

Exactly right.

RATHER

Well you used the word we. But it's my understanding-- and correct me if I'm wrong, that you do most of the writing?

SORKIN

I do all of the writing.

RATHER

You do all o' the writing?

SORKIN

But let me tell you what that means-- exactly. I work with a writing staff and a great writing staff. And we sit in a room. And ideas get pitched around. By the way in addition to the writing staff we also have 12-- consultants. You would probably know all 12 of these people. They-- work in various disciplines-- in the news. Some are anchors. Some are producers. Some are reporters. Some are former presidents of-- of news divisions.

10 We-- we kick around ideas. You'll hear a kernel of something you like. And-- and we-- we jump on that. The show is research-intensive. So that research gets done. But ultimately because I-- really all I know how to be is a playwright-- and I-- I try to do the best I can in-- in television and films as a playwright.

But-- ultimately I have to go into a room by myself, close the door-- and-- and write it for better or for worse. And believe me I recognize that-- that there are plenty o' people out there for whom I am not their cup of tea. But for better or for worse I like the idiosyncrasy and the authorial voice that comes with-- writing something by yourself-- as opposed to-- a group of people doing it. I can't get into that room by myself without that group of people. But ultimately you gotta close the door.

RATHER

Well, it's important that you know I've reached the age and stage where I don't have to kiss up to anybody. (LAUGHTER) And god is it not wonderful. (LAUGHTER) But I would not have thought that anybody outside of television news could capture the way television journalists actually talk, the way they talk to one another, what they talk about, how they talk about it, the language they use-- with-- so authentically as you have done here. How did you do that?

SORKIN

Well, first thank you. It's a great compliment coming from you. Second, that's the part that I love. And-- again it's-- you've gotta be-- a enjoy being a phonetician-- the phonetics-- of it. There are times when-- when I'll identify a moment as it's not important that the audience knows what these guys are talking about only-- or these women are talking-- only that the audience say, "Wow, these guys know what they're talking about." It's-- they're really-- I-- I enjoy moments like that-- control room banter, patois-- that kinda thing.

And if you can-- inject some o' that in there…

CONTROL ROOM ANNOUNCEMENT, THE NEWSROOM

60 seconds to VTR…

CONTROL ROOM OPERATOR, THE NEWSROOM

Are we getting the opening in HD or SD?

SORKIN

I don't mean to be coy-- when I say this. The appearance of reality is much more important to me than reality. I'll give you a silly example. What is SOT? Sound on tape. It’s something you would hear the director say in a control room you know, “Roll SOT 7.” I don't like the sound-- of the word SOT. I prefer S-O-T.

11 So on our show-- the director will say, "Roll S-O-T seven," which means that-- I don't know 1,000 people-- in the country are pulling their out saying, "It's not S-O-T. It's SOT." I am in that case willing to sacrifice-- what is real for what feels realer.

Another example-- in shooting-- my first movie, A Few Good Men-- it takes place at the Washington Navy Yard. We went and we scouted the actual Washington Navy Yard and came to the decision it didn't feel enough like the Washington Navy Yard-- to us. Let's find someplace else. This just doesn't feel right even though it was real. It couldn't matter less if it is real. It needs to seem real.

RATHER

I take your point. Was that your big breakthrough, A Few Good Men?

SORKIN

Yeah. It was my first-- it-- it was the first play I wrote and-- and then the first movie. It-- I got crazy lucky. I-- my sister was in the Navy JAG Corps. She graduated from law school-- and wanted trial experience right away. She called me. And she said-- "You're never gonna believe where I'm going tomorrow. We keep a base, a Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." This was before it was the world's most famous prison. "And there are ten marines who've been accused of this thing."

And-- I didn't then-- didn't wanna know the real story. I didn't wanna know the rest. My mind just kind of started racing. And I wrote A Few Good Men. And it was at a time when nobody was really producing new American plays. I was 25 years old. This was a play that you could really only do on Broadway. It wouldn't fit-- in an off-Broadway house. It was a big cast. It was gonna be expensive. And-- legendary theater producers came along and said, "We're gonna do this on Broadway and then we're gonna make a movie." And-- RATHER

But you said you got extraordinarily lucky. You know that one definition of luck for a lotta people including myself is where preparation and talent meet opportunity. That's what people call luck.

SORKIN

You may be right about that. I'm gonna put it this way. I'm sure I wasn't the only person who-- was talented and prepared. All right then.

RATHER

Well, that's where the opportunity came—

SORKIN

Yeah.

12

RATHER

Well, whether you're talking about writing for film, big picture, Hollywood-- movie or for television I'm interested in how you got into writing. Was it books that it did it? Were you a voracious reader as a kid--

SORKIN

Was plays. Plays. RATHER

Plays?

SORKIN

Yeah. I-- my parents took me to the theater all the time and for no reason. They're not show business people. My mother-- taught public school for-- 40 years. My father's an intellectual property expert. And-- but they-- as a matter of habit went to the theater when-- when they were young-- and took me to see plays, often taking me to see plays that I was too young to understand, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? when I was nine years old-- things like that.

And-- but it didn't matter to me because I loved the sound of dialogue. It sounded like music to me. These-- these fantastic actors just-- I don't know how else to say it except it sounded like music to me. It was just crashing off each other. And I wanted to imitate that sound. And that's how-- I got into it.

RATHER

What other plays as time went along did you like and you think made a deep impression on you?

SORKIN

I can't think of a play that didn't make a deep impression on me. And I badly miss the time-- I wonder if we're all like this when-- when we're little-- when there was no such thing as a bad movie or a bad play. Maybe not-- there was no such thing as a bad television show.

But I do know thinking every play I saw was the best play I'd ever seen. I love-- by the way I-- I loved musicals. And-- Man of La Mancha, oh, had a deep, deep impact on me. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, That Championship Season, Equus, Amadeus, these were the plays which for me made theaters cathedrals. I was little in . And my family moved to a suburb, Scarsdale up in Westchester. I had-- I was in eighth or ninth grade. And I had a $5 a week-- allowance which was enough money for me to buy a round trip ticket on the train-- into New York and back. But there wasn't anything left over to-- even then you could get a balcony seat for a Broadway show for $5. So--

RATHER

13

Shows you how long ago that's been?

SORKIN

Yeah. You can't get-- $5 won't get you-- get a hot dog maybe. But-- I would second act-- these shows-- in the summertime which means standing out on the sidewalk-- waiting till intermission. People come outside. You go back in. And the ushers in all these theaters took great pity on me. I wasn't foolin' anybody. But they said, "Hey, the-- the kid's goin' for--"

RATHER

Juvenile crime this was? SORKIN

Yes, yes. I was absolutely committing a crime. But-- as a result-- and-- when I have a play-- anybody who wants to second act it is more than welcome.

RATHER

Well-- you mentioned that-- you used the word phoneticist was it? With that in mind have you see what went-- I think it went-- viral on YouTube, the Sorkinisms?

SORKIN

I-- (LAUGH) I did. And the explanation is exactly what you think. I-- I have-- both a limited imagination and a bad memory.

[YOUTUBE VIDEO OF SORKINISMS]

It's-- it was only watching that-- that I thought, "Holy cow. I used that joke before. I used that line before." I-- I just-- I don't remember. And I have a much-too-limited imagination for somebody who does what I do for a living.

[YOUTUBE VIDEO OF SORKINISMS]

RATHER

Well-- it's not an indictable offense to reuse your own material?

SORKIN

Yes, no. I'm happy to say I don't believe I've ever plagiarized anyone but myself. (LAUGHTER)

14 RATHER

You plagiarize yourself it's okay 'cause you're not gonna sue yourself. Well, it is-- it is very funny. When you hear something, a pithy comment, you're likely to hear it again in your lifetime. It's not as if it's a one-time only comment.

SORKIN

But that's a very nice rationale for it. (LAUGHTER) A weakness that we found in my writing that I'll try to correct. (LAUGHTER)

RATHER

Okay. Well,-- these Sorkinisms-- where did you come up with them? Are they things-- do you write down things you hear people say or it sticks in your mind?

SORKIN

Every once in a while I’ll hear somebody say something absolutely fantastic. Or even better-- I will somehow pick up in the middle of a conversation. You know, you're in a diner. And the-- the people the booth next to you-- are in a middle of a conversation. And you hear something. And you're-- you're dying to write the beginning of that conversation. You hear somebody say, "How many people can you think of named Gordon." And you-- how did they get there? I want to write that. (LAUGHTER)

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

Let me ask you a quick question.

JOSH CHARLES, SPORTS NIGHT

You know right now might not be the best time.

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

This is important. , SPORTS NIGHT

What’s the question?

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

How many people can you think of named Gordon?

JOSH CHARLES, SPORTS NIGHT

15 How many people can I think of named Gordon?

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

Yeah.

JOSH CHARLES, SPORTS NIGHT

Two.

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

That’s how many I got. Which were your two?

JOSH CHARLES, SPORTS NIGHT

Gordon Lightfoot and Gordon Liddy.

PETER KRAUSE, SPORTS NIGHT

Those are my two. Those are the exact same two that I got. Can you think of any more?

SORKIN

I was once in-- Jackson, Mississippi. And I came out of a place. Two old men are-- are sitting on a park bench and-- and one of them says, "Who dat there gonna get jump on Jesus." (LAUGHTER) I-- I-- now I wanna sit down with these guys and hear the rest o' that conversation. So if I hear something that just musically sounds good or just intrigues me how they could've possibly gotten to that-- I will write it down.

Most of the time-- I'm happy to say I’m not plagiarizing citizens. It's-- it just comes from usually driving around and listening to music-- in my car. I talk to myself-- out loud-- a lot. I start arguments with invisible people. And-- and that's how I get scenes going.

ACT 4

DAN RATHER

I want to go back to something you said near the beginning of the interview. Fact I think it was the very first thing you said. You're eager to answer the criticisms about Newsroom. Lemme throw a couple o' more at you. One quote, "It's sexist," that you have-- male characters doing things better in general than you have female characters. Now you have a young daughter?

AARON SORKIN

16

I do.

RATHER

She's, what 12, 13--

SORKIN

Twelve years old, yeah.

RATHER

Twelve years old. Well, let's talk about it. Objectively is it sexist?

SORKIN

Well, I've heard those-- criticism. And I take them very seriously. I don't shrug them off. But no. I-- I don't think the-- the show is sexist. The examples that I hear of here's why it is sexist—

EMILY MORTIMER, THE NEWSROOM

I’m sending him an email because I can’t live with this stupid promise I made.

SORKIN it ranges from small things like-- MacKenzie, the part played by -- she screwed up sending-- an email. She meant to send an email to one person—

RATHER

Yeah, the executive producer of the program, right--

SORKIN

--she sent it-- to the entire staff. A man does the exact same thing less than 60 seconds-- later. But the-- the-- the larger thing that-- that I think you're talking about is that men lead and women follow or men lead and women-- support them. I just don't see it that way. The only reason this series is in existence is because the character of MacKenzie comes in and grabs Will by the throat-- and says-- "You're gonna do this-- you know, if I have to beat you-- into submission." And-- and-- and that's not just a one-time thing. Every second or third episode she is berating him for not being as good-- as-- as he should be. She is-- is very much a leader in this world.

17 As an audience member I absolutely enjoy shows that celebrate the worst-- in us-- shows where people are bad. As a writer I'm unable to write those shows. And I enjoy writing shows that celebrate the-- the-- the-- what's best in us. And I just think on-- on this show that the men and women are equal in that regard.

So I have given it thought. And-- hopefully in the second season-- people won't find that. But while I don't take the criticisms lightly neither can I write in order to try to please-- everybody.

RATHER

Well, I think we can all agree that would be a mistake if you tried to write--

SORKIN

It would be for anyone to try to figure out what it is everyone wants and then give it to them. I really recommend to anyone who-- who wants to write, write-- try to write what you would like, what you think your friends would like. And then keep your fingers crossed that-- enough other people like it that you can earn a living. RATHER

Now let's comes to the—there has been some of this, a version of listen Dan Rather and the world - This guy Sorkin-- he's a left-wing Democrat-- semi-socialist. He's-- he's definitely on the left side. And any way you cut it that this program, The Newsroom, like they would say quote, "The West Wing-- is a version of left-wing propaganda," quote/unquote?

SORKIN

I'm okay with that. You know-- I've-- I think a few years ago I think with The West Wing I would've tried to push back-- and say, "No, it's not somehow." But-- yeah. It's-- I think-- someone on called it a liberal fantasy. I suppose it is. But-- I'm okay with that. And-- and there are any number of shows out there that are the same thing-- on the right-- and have been for years and years and years. That's what most westerns are. That's what most cop shows are. That's what 24 was. It-- it was-- a dramatization of-- in support of positions on the right. This is-- frequently dramatization of supports-- of positions on the left. What I will say-- however is that first of all again-- I don't write those shows to-- to change anybody's mind, to get anybody elected-- anything like that. There are certain things that-- there are things about the argument that-- appeal to me. And-- and-- and that's where I'm tryin' to get the drama from.

Lately in the last few years the more interesting conflict-- of ideas to me wasn't left and right. It was between right and far right.

JEFF DANIELS, THE NEWSROOM

I’m what the leaders of the Tea Party would call a RINO, Republican In Name Only.

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SORKIN

And that's why Will McAvoy is a Republican-- who wants his party to regain its sanity--

RATHER

Will, being the anchorman?

SORKIN

Yes. And by the way there are many different opinions-- on this show. It-- it-- everybody, you know-- isn't left. But-- what I hope is that-- even if you disagree with politically, ideologically with an opinion that a character has that you can stick around for the jokes, for-- for the entertainment.

CONTROL ROOM OPERATOR, THE NEWSROOM

Can you move the blackberry off the desk? I can see it in the shot.

EMILY MORTIMER, THE NEWSROOM

Will, can you move your blackberry off the desk? [Will throws blackberry at camera]

RATHER

How do you develop characters as strong as the ones in not just your television programs but in your big screen movies as well?

SORKIN

What I try to do is instead of-- telling the audience who a character is show the audience what a character wants. And if you can do that-- again it comes back to-- intention and obstacle -- show the audience what a character wants. And then there's gonna be an obstacle, how the character goes about getting it. That is going to-- define that person. That is a tight clothesline on which you can hang-- all the ruffles and flourishes-- that you want, all the character details-- that you want. But you can't do anything unless you have that first. RATHER

Well, we know that certainly in fiction, in-- in a novel, I think it's true with non-fiction, in books for example, that you need dialogue to move the narrative. Is it true for television programs and movies as well? SORKIN

19 It's true for mine. It-- other people-- I-- I don't have a very good visual sense-- at all. I-- and-- and I wish I did. There are people who are able to write magnificent screenplays-- and make magnificent movies without-- doing much with-- much at all-- with dialogue. I'm really never going to be able to write the strong silent type. I'm-- I'm just not. And-- and in fact it's the reverse. I have very little description-- in my screenplays, only-- as much as is necessary to-- to orient the-- the reader. H-- you know, here-- here's where we are.

We're in a living room. We're on a baseball diamond. That-- that-- that's where we are. And in television and in movies those are visual mediums. And-- the-- because I'm basically writing radio plays that very skilled directors are-- are making visually interesting-- that's why in the halls of The West Wing-- characters are rushing up and down the hallways where they wouldn't be-- in the real west wing. That's why our newsroom set is made out of glass-- entire-- it's so that you-- there's just movement-- in the background of everything. Otherwise there'd just be too much static.

RATHER

Interesting. You said you-- you're basically in your own mind you're writing radio plays which other people figure out a way to visualize?

SORKIN

Yes. That's right. And-- I-- I'm-- and I'm very grateful to-- to those other people. I've been asked-- "Do you wanna direct?" And I worry that if I did I-- I would make a movie, where there was-- where the screenplay was on a music stand. And every 40 seconds sort of a gloved hand came in, turned the page. We just pointed a camera at that.

SORKIN

My Achilles heel is story. If left to my own devices I will write 50 pages of crackling dialogue that adds up to nothing. I have to know what you want and what's stopping you from getting it or what the disagreement is. If you can put two people in a room who disagree about something, anything, the correct time of day-- go ahead, you're ready to write.

RATHER

Is that because your father was an attorney? And you have two siblings who are attorneys?

SORKIN

Yes and they, thank god, delighted in nothing more-- again at the dinner table-- that somebody-- it didn't matter-- it didn't matter who was right and who was wrong. It mattered can you stand an argument up-- against that.

20 It was the person who could say, "But look at it this way. But you haven't thought about that." That was in my house the measure of a person. Can you stand another argument up to that. It truly-- everyone understood you don't have to believe it. (LAUGH) But-- can you-- can you be the devil's advocate?

RATHER

And-- when that led it seems to me a direct storyline, correct me if I'm wrong, in your life to A Few Good Men? SORKIN

Yes. It did--

RATHER

Courtroom drama—

SORKIN

--it-- it-- every-- everything-- it was the confluence-- of-- of everything. I-- I badly-- I badly wanted to write-- to write. And-- I badly wanted to write plays. I never imagined, it never occurred to me that television or movies-- would-- were in my future at all.

I loved watching movies, loved watching television much as anybody else. But I felt like I'd only ever been-- a student of-- of plays. And that was where I belonged. I was born in 1961. So-- I was little during the War. I-- and in spite of the fact my father was a World War II veteran, my idea of anyone who would volunteer-- for the military was, "You must like to kill people.” But it-- it was my sister who gave me access to-- to the fact that these are incredible people, the-- the exact opposite of what I thought they were. And that's why the real journey in A Few Good Men, I mean, of course we're watching-- the-- the trial-- part, the crime and-- will our hero be able to get these guys off? The real journey in it is that the lawyer, the Tom Cruise character-- Kaffee, goes from mocking their Marine code of honor in the beginning to, we all think that the climactic moment in the confrontation with the , with the Nicholson character, is "You can't handle the truth." That's actually the beginning of-- of the confrontation. The end of the confrontation is, "Don't call me son...”

TOM CRUISE, A FEW GOOD MEN, 1992

I'm a lawyer and an officer in the Navy. And you're under arrest. You son of a bitch.

SORKIN

So the journey is seeing him-- fill out his uniform.

RATHER

21 Well, makes we wanna watch the movie again?

SORKIN

Thanks-

RATHER

What do you like to watch on television now? You must have loads of time to watch television of course? (LAUGHTER) No, what do you-- what do you like to watch?

SORKIN

You know what. For-- for several years now-- really since the beginning of the new millennium-- I think it's where we've been living in a second golden age-- of television-- that-- some of the greatest theater in America has been on television. Not just on the premium cable-- networks either-- network television.

A fantastic series, The Office-- just went off the air-- this spring. And I watched it obsessively-- as I did the show that came right after it, Parks and Recreation. I-- any show that can be hip and have heart-- you-- you got me. You've-- you've won me over. Both-- both were fantastic.

I watch Veep. I watch-- I watch Lena Dunham's show, Girls. I like to check out-- I mean, if there's a new writer who's great-- they own me-- I wanna check them out. And-- those are the shows I watch along with football games and baseball games. And it doesn't matter between which two teams. I will watch any-- (LAUGHTER) any game.

RATHER

Well, you and I share that. And sometimes I catch myself even watching minor league hockey games and Canadian and west coast—

SORKIN

Oh, yeah-- absolutely. (LAUGHTER) It-- it doesn't matter.

RATHER

When you were coming over you were a child and-- even a young adult-- what programs did you watch?

SORKIN

I loved MASH. I loved . I loved The Mary Tyler Moore Show. These-- these were fantastically well-written, well-executed-- shows that-- you know, whether it was the comedy on The

22 Mary Tyler Moore Show-- in terms of All in the Family I-- I understood that it was breaking all kinds of cultural taboos. But I only understand that now-- in retrospect.

At the time I just thought it was funny. And I thought that Carroll O'Connor-- was giving a performance like we'd never seen before on television.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

TELEVISION SHOWS LIKE ALL IN THE FAMILY DEFTLY COMMENTED ON ISSUES OF RACE....BUT LACK OF DIVERSITY WAS ONE OF THE EARLIEST CRITICISMS SORKIN FACED. HE SAYS WHEN IT COMES TO CASTING A ROLE, RACE AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND ARE SIMPLY NOT FACTORS HE TAKES INTO ACCOUNT...

SORKIN

I don't think I've said to anyone before because I have not wanted Martin Sheen to think he was anything but our first choice at the beginning. But that role, Martin's Role was first offered to Sidney Poitier.

RATHER

Wow.

SORKIN

And here's the point-- that I'm trying to make. I never say-- "We have too much o' this and we need a little less o' that and-- and we've gotta get the-- the color mixture right." I absolutely when it comes to casting want to put the best athletes on the field. And it-- it could not matter less to me-- what your ethnic background is. RATHER

Very interesting about Sidney Poitier being your first choice for The West Wing?

SORKIN

Yeah. And not-- the idea wasn't-- "Gee, wouldn't it--" and this was-- you know, The West Wing-- premiered when Bill Clinton-- was president. So the idea of Barack Obama was-- was far off. We weren't thinking, "Wouldn't it be cool to have an African American president." Just, "Boy, how great would Sidney Poitier be in this part. He'll be-- fantastic." Now lemme just also be clear. I wouldn't trade Martin Sheen for anything in the world now that-- you know, I've-- I've had the experience working with him.

RATHER

Well, he did a absolutely wonderful job, no question about it.

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ALLISON JANEY, THE WEST WING

How much do you plan on telling them?

MARTIN SHEEN, THE WEST WING

I’m telling them the military space shuttle whose existence we’ve flatly denied, will be hurtling up from Vandenburg in about an hour.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

NEXT...SORKIN, THE MASTER WRITER, OPENS UP ABOUT HIS BIGGEST STRUGGLES... PERSONALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY....

ACT 5 DAN RATHER

Well, let's talk about what's ahead. You're working on-- a film version of a of-- of ?

AARON SORKIN

That's right.

RATHER Tell me about that.

SORKIN

This is-- based on 's biography of Steve Jobs. And-- and it's what I'm writing right now. And a movie about the trial of the -- those guys who were accused of-- in-- conspiracy to incite a riot. RATHER

In the late 1960's--

SORKIN

1968, yep.

RATHER

So two projects. Are you writing them simultaneously?

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SORKIN

The writing can't happen simultaneously. Once you-- you-- you can kind of research one and-- and write the other. But once you're writing something that is-- you can't cheat on that. (LAUGH) That-- that's where your head is every minute.

You know, you mentioned my daughter. And I am a father-- first-- and always. But she does go to school (LAUGH) during the day when-- when she's-- and she does go to bed at night. And-- and once that's happened-- I am writing one thing and one thing only.

RATHER

Well, I wanna ask you so you tend to write late at night?

SORKIN

I write when-- I write early in the morning. I used to write late at night. And now-- I write early in the morning. But I write-- if-- if I can I don't wait. If-- if I know what-- what-- if I knew what the first scene of the Steve Jobs movie was, I would end this interview-- right now and say, "I'm sorry. I've gotta go." And I-- I-- I would write it right now.

So I-- I write it when I have it. And the only trick that I have is I like to leave off in middle-- not at the end-- so that I can-- if I leave off in the middle of a scene, if I know what the next line is-- if-- if it's a joke and I've done the set up I won't write the punch line so I can wake up the next morning knowing the very first thing that I'm gonna do. And I don't have to do the pacing around part of what comes next--

RATHER

Well, and that's interesting. You have a take-off point for the next day's work--

SORKIN

Yeah. I love- it rarely happens. But I love being able to wake up in the morning knowing exactly-- what I'm gonna write. It's the fastest I ever get dressed.

RATHER

You've had-- a skyrocket up career. What in your career has been the hardest situation you've faced? And how did you get through it?

SORKIN

25 Well, there are-- are-- are two things. I don't think it's a secret that-- I was a cocaine addict for-- for several years. And I-- I was publicly arrested for that. That-- now the-- that had little to do with my career. And-- while it was certainly tough being part o' the criminal justice system-- and while it was no fun having the whole thing played out-- in public the hardest part about that, the most important part about that was not using cocaine anymore.

I would say in terms of my career-- professionally the hardest thing has been right now with-- with The Newsroom. This is hardly my first experience with negative reviews. And I've had plenty of experience with indifference. But this is the first time I seem to have infuriated-- people. And that's not something I'm comfortable with. RATHER

Your greatest career triumph? I mean, what are you most proud of? You have plenty to be proud of?

SORKIN

I-- and I am deeply proud of all if it including and especially-- The Newsroom. I-- I didn't mean to-- to suggest that I would take back-- a minute of The Newsroom, only that I'm-- I'm far from relishing the-- the hubbub. But I have-- a lot of love for The West Wing-- and-- and for everyone who worked on that. Great memories of my first play and first movie which were both A Few Good Men. The Social Network- - was-- very important to me. I loved every minute of that. And—

RATHER

Well, I would think so. You win an Oscar for it--

SORKIN

Winning an Academy Award is a lot of fun. I recommend that-- for everybody. And-- all I hope is that-- the answer to your question hasn't happened yet.

RATHER

What core lessons have you learned over the length and breadth of your career so far?

SORKIN

I think I've learned any number of-- of writing lessons. And one of the-- the things I love about writing is you do get better-- as you get older. Like the violin, practice is-- fantastic. And my career, you know, I-- I have to tell you-- first of all it-- I-- I look at the calendar and I see that it's been-- a little over 20 years now that-- that I've been a professional writer. And it feels to me like it's-- like it just happened last week, that-- that-- I-- I don't feel like I've been doing it as long-- as I have.

26 But for sure I never dreamed that I would have the opportunities-- that I've had. I don't take any of it for granted. And that's not a hard thing-- for me to do. I don't have to think about-- finding it special. I can't believe that-- I get to pay my bills with money that I earned doing exactly what I love doing. And I-- I know that makes me extraordinarily lucky. And-- and I-- I-- I don't take that for granted.

ACT 6

DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)

COMING UP NEXT WEEK….ON THE NEXT “BIG INTERVIEW”...ROGER DALTREY OF THE LEGENDARY BAND “THE WHO”... SITS DOWN FOR A RARE AND CANDID CONVERSATION ABOUT HIS LIFE IN ROCK & ROLL...

RATHER

If someone from some different cosmos said, "Who are you?" How would you answer?

ROGER DALTREY

I’ve heard that. (LAUGHS)

RATHER

Who are you? DALTREY

Isn't there an F between them? (LAUGHTER) Who am I? I'm just a working class guy from Shepherd's Bush who-- who got lucky.

RATHER (VOICE OVER)

THAT’S NEXT MONDAY NIGHT AT 8...HERE ON AXS-TV….

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