7 Days 8th December 1971

All photographs by Nevis Cameron ‘I w as afraid o f that one...' Cross-examining Richard Neville

Of all the people in the underground Richard Neville has clashed most spectacularly with courts, police, Mary Whitehouse and the rest of the custodians of moral behaviour. In his book Play Power he attempted a rationale for the “underground’s” emphasis on cultural liberation as opposed to the somewhat slighted efforts of more orthodox socialist activists. Here we take up the themes of cultural revolution, rock, the underground, opened up in our last two issues, in an extended (and argumentative) interview with Neville. 7 DAYS staffers Anthony Barnett, Judith Ferguson and Maxine Molyneux, along with Clive Goodwin spent an evening with Neville and a tape recorder.

I went to an upper middle class boarding preceded by a broad culturally liberating move­ that I can write about anything I want, with the difference in income, to make it a difference in school in Australia, run on English public ment. If you don’t believe it, compare their exception of drugs, and I get £70 a fortnight. It their relations to the community. Edgar school lines. We wore boaters made of manifestos to the more traditional homosexual totally supports me and frees me to involve myself Broughton down in Brighton is getting involved in reform groups. Talking to people I know in Gay in other underground activities. It may perhaps political struggles, giving free concerts, being straw and striped ties, and there was Power in this country, their sexual precosity, lack influence my very personal life by upsetting this harrassed, living like the people, not like a pop compulsory cadets and sports. When I left I of guilts, the way they dressed was a necessary incredible Australian hangover relationship with group. Which is why they are being prosecuted. joined an advertising agency, and after precursor to their openness, to their whole policy Louise, my girl friend or whatever, woman’s It’s not just a matter of giving money back, its a writing "43 beans to every cup", I of “Come Out”. They are one of the few groups liberation hasn’t really affected that. The thing for matter of living and relating. that are demonstrating liberating power. They go suddenly discovered there were things me to do now is to apply my ideas in a more to pubs which for years have been exploiting detailed, personal way. called universities. My family was totally Are you saying that music forms a kind of homosexuals, getting a scene going, overcharging, revolutionary consciousness, and if so, which are apolitical, I never remember politics being and they go in and say “we are not ashamed, stop the groups, and what is the kind of intervention it discussed. My mother was a writer overcharging us, what about reflecting our life Pop music doesn’t seem relevant anymore. makes? -journalist type, very very Australian style”. The publicans call the police, Gay Power People seem to be looking for more directly refuse to leave unless the publican closes his pub; political means of change. middle-class, singing songs round the piano Music alone does not form a revolutionary he closes it and loses his business. Is it a political consciousness, but it is a very intrinsic culture of a would be the social side. Even at university action or a cultural action? I don’t know. It seems I think that’s true, but it’s difficult to say, you lot of people. A few years ago it was liberating to it was apolitical, though I got involved in to me that all the people in Gay Power are feel different every morning. Sometimes one feels hear the music, to hear Jagger sing “I can’t get no anarchistic anti-authoritarian action. radicalised by that; Gay Power was there marching very pessimistic and thinks that it’s all just a satisfaction” and that was exciting enough, but against internment. I’m saying tha Gay Power process of ultra-capitalist absorption, yet I’m quite now I don’t think that that washes anymore. That When Lenny Bruce came out to Australia, could never have happened without the cultural excited because now the new groups coming up song would not be valid anymore, it would be like he went on at a beer garden and three or four disc chaos, it would never have happened with groups are very conscious of EMI making money out of Jimmy Saville singing it. jockeys walked out. There were headlines the next like I.S., it need the funny, ozish, psychedelicky, them, or Mick Jagger eating caviar at the George V day that he had used a four letter word. His fashiony, underground, which, as well, means Hotel in Paris. It’s a matter — it sound like a joke In parallel terms do you think Oz has outlived its contract was immediately cancelled. So I booked boutiques called “Guevara”. — of the Rock Liberation Front, which A.J. time? the university hall, rang him up and asked him The culture has contributed to, and fused Weberman first mooted when he started going over,' he said fantastic, came out, the Vice- with the left. But I think that the Red Mole line, through Bob Dylan’s garbage, which seems very Well, look, Oz has altered a lot, but we covered Chancellor got to know and over my head the or the Black Dwarf line, although the people tasteless and irrelevant of this crazy Yippie, but France in May 1968, it was the only paper in this concert was cancelled. That was the first behind the papers are perhaps sure of their rigid what he wanted was to rock Dylan’s conscience, to country that forewarned people about Chicago in realisation that free speech, even at university, was political line, people who read them, broadly are show the difference between Dylan’s life style now 68. a meaningless term. not. The don’t really care about some event in a and when he began. It’s just how an old-fashioned Then I edited the student newspaper, it was Marxist bureaucracy 25 years ago. socialist must feel when he sees Harold Wilson Yes, I agree that Oz had a function at that time. It satirical, anti-church. Next we launched Australian I don’t want to overemphasise the sexual driving round in Rolls Royces. liberated peopled into their own self-expression, Oz, which was like the old Private Eye with it right liberation part of it, because then you come to but it was an individualistic development and Oz is wing Tory court jesterism. Say on Vietnam we very contradictory things like Germaine Greer. I still floating around despite all its talk. The were not sure of our position then. On the other agree with Sheila Rowbotham that Germaine has But hasn’t that movement come to a halt, aren’t liberation that took place was often at the expense hand we were facing obscenity trials and covering nothing to do with Women’s Liberation. She is not they now looking for politics in a more traditional of others, certainly of women. It can’t stay where aspects of the new culture, drugs, Bob Dylan and attached to a movement. sense? it is. so on. Then I came over here, by way of Asia and To say ‘traditional’ is a little unfair. They are Yes I agree with th at. .. the Middle East, and that was where I was very Aren't you getting into the same position? trying to apply politics, apply it more. It will be much hit with the culture and the drug taking, interesting to see whether the new auditorium that with communalism and with the absence, even if Yes, I know, my problem now, after having has just opened, the Rainbow, is there to cash in All the same you seem a bit complacent about it. temporary, of material goods. When I got here I headlines on the front page of The Times, is do I on the profits or whether it will plough its profits launched Oz out of an impulsive and exhibitionist try and just be a car salesman for the underground, back into the community, organisations like Well wait a minute, I couldn’t agree more with making money out of that, living in an Italian Release, Bit, Street Aid. desire I admit. you, but I would argue that every male three or commune, occasionally flying to New York for four years ago was a male chauvinist. floor shows. You said in “Playpower”, that revolution can be You just seem to be saying that the profits should brought about by cultural “guerrillaism”. be made more bearable, not that they should be Oz is still sexist. You are writing in the Evening Standard? abolished. I really don’t know. It probably can. I am against Ah, much less so than it was. Wait, first of all I had the school of dismissing the value of cultural Sure, It’s no different to me than appearing on It is starting as a question of degree but what is nothing to do with the last two Oz’s at all, I only radicalism. A movement like Gay Liberation, you Television. Writing in the Standard means I can happening, what Rock and Roll Liberation Front read the last issue. Two years ago there were see, would not have happened it if hadn' t been write in Ink and Oz for nothing. The contract says seems to be doing, is to make it more than just a debates within Oz as to whether it was sexist,

18 7 Days 8th December 1971

work, I also support the right not to work, or to where huge numbers live a totally deprived Perhaps we can go over to another subject, your existence, what are all their emotions directed at? relationship to marxism. transform one’s life. I do not support the 7 Days romanticism about workers. It depends on whether they support Celtic or Rangers. That is their life, supporting either of those teams, in between working incredibly long Special feature I for one am surprised you should put it like that. hours making parts that mostly we don’t want I ’ve been right through the classes, one of them anyway. whether it treated women as just sexual objects, (the working class) I came from, the others I ’ve and how we should solve this. Our solution is not spent a long time visiting, and everywhere I went most people were full of shit, there wasn’t much I t ’s no better or worse than pot, you can’t deny to be terrified of the label “sexism” and to drop the pleasure and excitement, you of all people. sex from Oz, which is the solution that some •difference, the proportions were about the same. I underground papers adopted, but is to say that, don’t know why you should think they are higher. The proportion who believe that blacks are It’s a far more effective means of repression than OK women have been sexual objects in Oz, what rock music. I don’t know of a Football Liberation about elevating men into that role as well. Where I inferior to them, that women should lie down, you Front myself. The underground is trying to disagree with you is that I don’t think that to know, that’s happening in every class. I f anything I would say that all those prejudices you spoke develop something. Of course the free pop festivals recognise the demands of women’s liberation you are 99% irrelevant and exploitative, but at least have to suppress sexuality. about are far greater in the upper class and in the middle class than they are in the working class. three weeks before, there are people who And, they have had the opportunity to change, build these communal houses, called desolation (Uproar) — and they’ve stayed stuck in an emotional and row, or something, totally shared, and in a Opposition to sexism is opposition to specific mental pigsty. primitive nascent sort of way people are trying to relationships that use and abuse the sex difference. The left is debating what you have been talking build organisational structures. By overthrowing male domination women’s about, the backwardness of the working class, how liberation will allow sexuality to find its own, to break down the lies they believe in how to face But if you are saying that the alternative is to sit open, place in society. I t’s a precondition for I was afraid of that one... them with reality. Because without them you’re liberating sexuality, although that's only a spin not going to get anywhere. down in desolation row and try and construct a off. Well, do you believe that we are ruled by a little bit of primitive communism for yourself. . . bourgeois ruling class? Sure, but we just have different techniques. I think I would agree with that, but you don’t within one that media, drugs, rock and roll is a way of getting No, I think that’s a very unfair distortion. People issue of Oz and another completely eradicate Yes, I accept all that... to them through their children. That’s why I are individualistic because they are individuals and sexism ingrained in one. I absolutely admit that. supported Rubin’s David Frost takeover bid. At they are different. I’m not saying your role is not But I would say that in any recent issue of Oz, all the very simplistic level that no amount of leaflets important, just that there are lots of others as well, right, there may be perhaps one or two frames, Including the working class taking power? will reach to that number of children in working if the working class are the agency of revolution stuff that slipped through whether consciously or class homes. Their parents, will be freaked out and then let’s alter the agency pretty quickly, because unconsciously, that treats women as sexual Er, I’m a little worried about that. antagonised, their kids, seeing this will become I don’t want the present working class culture objects, but there is other stuff that is just a joyful much more sympathetic. You can ask the children, imposed on me. The thing is . . . er . . . that I want celebration of sex. There is a Robert Crumb “what is your destiny, is it your father’s footsteps, to break down the gap between activity and cartoon in the present issue that I don’t regard as That's the crucial question. or can you come out”. At a later stage you can theory and that’s one thing, that, — to get me out sexist at all, but Honey Bunch Kaminsky is politicise, but you have to approach it through the of an awkward situation, — I most admire about 7 fucking a guy. A lot of women would make a I believe in total equality of income and wealth, culture. DAYS. It was a great mistake we made on Ink. It charge of sexism against Oz that I would reject. not only in this country but in world politics. I I met a guy in Ibiza, he was sitting was hypocritical of us, and for me personally to obviously believe in workers’ control. Men should around smoking, in a commune, and we were have launched a project with hierarchical struc­ control their own destiny, that’s the. prime aim. It’s sitting around talking and I asked him how come tures. As I understand it on 7 DAYS there is no Why do you seem to assume that those who attack people acting for themselves, like at Clyde or he was there, with no money, and he said that he distinction between men and women and there is your sexism are simply puritanical? It is true that Plessey’s. But at the same time I can’t forget things was working in a factory (his father also in a no single editor, and that sort of thing is ideal also there is a philistinism on the left. But isn’t your like dockers marching for Enoch Powell. And I factory) stuffing kleenex tissues into boxes, and he for our private lives. We are products of our own position also philistine? Because when you think it’s hypocritical of middle class people to said that the only thing he could see as happening culture, that’s why culture is so important, it is the come across people arguing about something talk about going down to the shop floor. I know to him was that maybe the Kleenex boxes would quickest way to change personalities. I’m not interesting, like for example the Russian Revolu­ that work on a conveyor belt is hideous, because get bigger. There was no excitement or anything. saying fuck the working class. I think they need to tion, you dismiss it as rigid, or dogmatic. of the monotony of it, and unnecessary because And it was the underground press, mixed up with be changed. I gave the tissue box example of

someone at least whose gone a stage.

Yet you put down people who give out leaflets and go to factories and do try to change them.

Yes, this is where we disagree I suppose. I think Rubin’s taking over the Frost show is more important than leafleting a factory. Because I think it’s an insult for a person like me to do that anyway, it’s patronising. In addition it’s reason­ ably ineffective.

I t ’s more effective having the Kleenex tissue man sitting on Ibiza?

I think the cultural revolution will carry him on from there, yes.

What do you think is going to happen after yo u ’ve been on this television show?

Well I don’t think its the springboard which will With Louise Ferrier set people storming the Bastille. The reason no utopia is being painted is because it is being invented along the way. I say that with a certain I do a caricature, a sort of shorthand. amount of cynicism. I made it very clear I think we don’t need all the Ford motor cars. But many a bit of corny old John Peel, made him drop out. of the people who work on them have plaster that everyone ought to control their own destiny. He went on permanent strike. Drugs and a Leafleting, great! I’m certainly not against it, I ducks on their walls, and are Alf Garnetts whose heightened awareness are now part of his life I But if that’s all you do,.. . ideas, on South Africa and a lot else, are think it needs something more dramatic,- more would say that what has happened to him is a very interesting and even a bit glamorous. I’m not terrifically dangerous. I’m not going to romanticise political act. That’s the field that I work in. Well, yes, look, on your sexism argument I think them because Marx said it was the destiny of the against glamour. you can’t just sit around the Oz office talking proletariat to be the agency of the next revolution. about it. One of the great advantages of Felix, Jim I look around and see that the people who are What about those who have been pushed out like and myself being eradicated from Oz by the trial, most active and most revolutionary in their life the homeless? Do you think you are a revolutionary? is that the girls there, who sent out subscription style are the middle class. The agency that is most copies and typed up the great articles we picked active is not the working class it is the middle Er, well I just don’t like using the first person out of underground magazines, have assumed a class. So I say, fuck historic views about what the There are more and more people confined to a pronoun about things like that. Yes, of course I dominance, full dominance. I don’t expect Oz to agency is going to be; the agency is whatever we monstrous anonymous existence. This is why I want to believe in a revolution, I just find the term abolish sexism by the next issue, it will take can make it. resent sport. The only way to get them through very dangerous because to me it conjures up several, with people working it out for themselves. I support the right to strike and the right to life is with sport and TV . In a city like Glasgow images of everybody cutting their own sugar cane to push the state ahead.

19 ■ 7 Days 8th December 1971 people's beliefs in things like fairness, justice, the 7 Days attitudes to violence; all these things have a profound political importance, and obviously this is ingrained in people. The atmosphere of the country and its national solidarity are very Special feature political phenomena and we should try to The problem for revolutionaries is how do you investigate them carefully and accurately, and make the revolution so that it doesn't end up in a should enjoy doing so as well. But you don’t say, Stalinist bureaucracy. look, the new culture must be sorted out, and where it helps, as in anti-authoritarianism, hostility Right. to the family, it should be strengthened. Instead you say the left doesn’t consider these questions. Doesn t that allow you to have a completely free­ I t’s central in making revolution, but you pose it wheeling position? So that you don’t have to against the revolution. bother about what values you actually stand for within your culture, because you just take up a No, it is why I emphasise drugs and abolishing the posture of saying that everybody else is totally whole property instinct, to avoid Stalinist against it. Some parts of it are important and very perversions. good, and other parts are abominable. So it matters what you think about specific things, and to change your position on them from time to time as the fancy takes you is intolerable, because Why aren’t you a Marxist? it will get you fucked up, and the people who I have absolutely no idea why I’m not a follow you fucked up. Worse -your asides about the Marxist. Probably because I am a frivolous middle left can be depoliticising. You satisfy people’s class Australian. I’ve been politicised through needs to see issues like the Angry Brigade or the culture and I don’t want to go off and read Das class nature of Justice discussed in a bright and Kapital to see whether I’m a marxist or not provocative way, but at the same time, just when because that to me is not relevant. I know that you’ve been allowed to make them think about society’s values are corrupt and I think I know these things, in your Guardian article or in the how effectively I can involve myself in altering Standard, you assure them that there is no credible those values and propagating a different sort. revolutionary ideology. I am critical of certain revolutionary groups in It seems that when we ask you whether you think England that are rigid and don’t take enough the working class are the agency of revolution you account of culture, I don’t talk about all say you aren’t sure, but if we say, well let’s try and revolutionaries, I talk about some marxists. work out the answer, you say well, I know where I stand. But you have never made a specific and answerable I believe in living the revolution, and one’s ideas criticism, one that has said ‘this is right, and that is change with circumstances. wrong’. The way you describe the left, in asides, in unanswerable. I accept a lot of that, I’m saying that a lot of the that I’m coming towards now, at a rally of support values of capitalism are being rejected for the Oz trial, it was pretty packed—there were You referred to groups with a “rigid” line, Yeah, well.. . spontaneously by large numbers of people who are about ten thousand, they came because they knew “dogmatic” marxists, all the reference you make not workers. You don’t take this into account. something was at stake, I am begining to think the to revolutionaries seems to put them down as time has come to form a bolshevik party, a new boring. You ’re right in part, people have started from the party, like my fantasy of Freaks United. You cultural break and become creative revolutionaries. Surely we do. The point we’re making is you reject know we are not even getting to first base in Inflexible, yeah puritanical, it comes from some The underground attack on narrowness, and the explicit values of capitalism and imperialism, influencing the important decisions, such as should experience, rather than intellectual conviction. It’s repressive sexuality is a step forward, but it’s but seem reluctant to accept the way to abolish Britain support Portugal. We should publish a provocative, it’s the car salesman style which unstable, it can lead to trendyism, to liberal them. You reject them, but you still feel manifesto, a programme, fight some by-elections, unfortunately I’m afflicted with. reformism, or it can lead to being a revolutionary. uncertain, it seems to me, of committing yourself and put forward vote-catching candidates. This If someone like you who has played a leading part to their overthrow. Anyone in that position is would be the explicit answer, it is time to form a in that cultural explosion, with all its benefits, important. Which way will you go? revolutionary party and we should actually use the Culture in Britain and in the widest sense o f the hesitates to take the step into revolutionary media, or fashion like the Black Panthers, really to word: written, visual, lived; culture in terms of What is the next concrete step? The personal thing create a mobilisation.

Benefit for the families of internees in Northern Ireland We are responsible for the troops there We are responsible for the killing of Irish people We are the ones who must collectively take action here

EXHIBITION of photographs, slides, banned films and videotapes, all taken recently in Northern Ireland.

Music by FLYING COLUMN BELFAST AILEACH FOLK GROUP DERRY ROY HARPER BRINDSLEY SCHWARZ THIN LIZZY

Theatre by RED LADDER STREET THEATRE NOTTING HILL GATE STREET THEATRE IRISH ACTORS IN WORKSHOP WITH JOAN LITTLEWOOD.

Speakers from THE BOGSIDE BELFAST LONDON

JUMBLE SALE (Bring your own clothes ) Raffle • Food • Drink.

COME TO THE ROUNDHOUSE DECEMBER 12

2 pm 12 pm. Admission • 40p

FREE IRELAND FOREVER

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